From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Jun  1 00:14:07 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 20:14:07 -0400
Subject: pax
In-Reply-To: <a0521060bbce0ad52e6ce@[130.102.202.113]>
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.201407.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Can anyone tell me if "pax" = passengers is known and used in the US?
>How widely used and known? It's airline reservation-speak, but I am
>intrigued at a report that it was common in WW2, and migrated to
>civil aviation with the people who left the airforces after 1945.
>
>It is also a verb among airline crew: to pax to New York is to travel
>as a passenger, in order to pick up a flight that one is to pilot to
>another destination.

It isn't familiar to me. However, the Web has many examples of "pax" =
"passenger[s]", some from the US. Not all from the travel business: I see
for example "5 pax auto" = "5-passenger auto", "car/pax ferry" = "car and
passenger ferry", "cargo, pax" = "cargo and passengers" (this from the
USAF). I Googled <<pax passengers>>.

-- Doug Wilson


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Tue Jun  1 01:23:35 2004
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 20:23:35 -0500
Subject: pax
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.202335.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's current usage in the US military, both for passengers on a vessel
(usually an aircraft) and those just arrived from that status.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Prof. R. Sussex" <sussex at UQ.EDU.AU>


Can anyone tell me if "pax" = passengers is known and used in the US?


From Nfburr at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  1 02:07:50 2004
From: Nfburr at AOL.COM (Nell Burr)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:07:50 EDT
Subject: "all stove up"
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.220750.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My partner and I have been trying to track down the etymology of the
expression "all stove up" which her father used to describe someone who's very hurt,
as in "he's all stove up."  Her father was born on the stake plains of east
Texas and his father took part in some of the last great cross-country cattle
drives as a cowboy for one of the large ranches, possibly the King Ranch.  Our
best guess is that the expression was born when a cowboy was so injured he
couldn't do any kind of work and had to just rest by the camp stove until he was
hopefully better.  It's logical, I suppose, but is it right?

Also, if anyone can suggest a good book on the derivation of other western
phrases, it would be much appreciated.

Thank you,

Nell


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun  1 02:24:35 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:24:35 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <200405311213.1buSej6Uq3NZFmQ0@tanager>
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.222435.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On May 31, 2004, at 3:13 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On May 31, 2004, at 11:15 AM, Wilson Gray wrote, in response to James
> Smith:
>
>> ..."Phat" is by no means a new spelling or a
>> new meaning for "fat.
>
> this is a very likely source.  extensions of "fat" to cover 'abundant,
> desirable, good, etc.' are well known.  and re-spellings to distinguish
> an original item from its metonymic extensions are also well known;
> "ghey"/"ghay" is how we got into this.
>
>>  However, your alternative solution is way off
>> the mark. Given that "phat" is black street slang, the idea that
>> "phat"
>> might somehow be derived from "phatic" is improbable, to say the
>> least.
>
> i think we can all agree on this.
>
>> "Phat" is actually a  modification of "phatt," which is initial-slang
>> meaning "Pussy, Hips, Ass, Thighs, Tits." This term dates back to at
>> least 1950, when its meaning and use were described to me by a cousin
>> visiting Saint Louis, my home town, from New York City. Its original
>> use was to describe a good-looking girl or woman, as in, e.g. "That
>> chick is phatt!" I know of no reason for the loss of the final "t." I
>> could make some guesses, but I won't waste anyone's time doing so.
>
> we've been down the acronymic road on this one, and it's about as good
> as Found Under Carnal Knowledge for "fuck".  acronymic derivations are
> very very rare outside of technical and administrative contexts, but
> they are suggested again and again for vernacular vocabulary, usually
> -- as in this case -- in many different versions (Pretty Hot And
> Tempting, Pussy Hips Ass Tits, Plenty of Hips And Thighs, Pretty Hips
> And Thighs, Perfect Hips And Thighs, PHysically ATtractive, Pretty Hot
> Ass 'n' Titties, Pritty Horrish At Times, Pretty Heavy And Tubby,
> Pretty Huge And Tubby).  i certainly wouldn't trust *my* cousins'
> hypotheses about etymology.  (one of my cousins, a guy ten years older
> than me, once carefully explained to me that asian women were, umm,
> oriented differently from western women.  he'd been around, but even at
> the age of 10 i was dubious.)
>
> but "phat" does seem to be a black street thing originally, and it does
> seem to have been around for quite some time (decades, not years).
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>

In 1950, my cousin and I were both thirteen years old. I really doubt
that she would have been sophisticated enough at that age to have made
up this derivation. And, given that adults are extremely unlikely to be
aware of the slanguage used by children on the street, especially in
the 'Fifties, I doubt that some well- or ill-meaning adult took her
aside and explained it to her. I conclude, therefore, that the
definition - not hypothesis - that she gave was a genuine one from the
streets of New York City. Note also that my cousin spelled and defined
"phatt" and not "phat" and that this occurred more than five decades
ago. A whole lot of water has gone under that temporal bridge. It's
also the case that, until the advent of hip-hop slang, no form of this
word was used anywhere that I've ever lived - Texas, Missouri,
California, Massachuseetts, Pennsylvania - by anyone of any race or
social class or age group. Even my cousin didn't use the word, except
for that one time, when she was clearly trying to gross out her hick
cousin from the sticks by using language reserved for the use of males.
Hence, it was a hapax legomenon for me prior to coming of hip-hop. The
rest of your argument re acronymic derivation, given that "fuck" is not
slang but standard English, is irrevelant. Besides, Arnold, you're
white and I'll bet that  you've never had any occasion whatsoever to
live among or come to know intimately black people. I, on the other
hand, am black and, naturally, have always lived among black people,
except for the time that I spent at M.I.T., back in the day. An
argument based on what is typical with respect to whites won't map onto
what is typical among blacks.

-Wilson Gray


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun  1 02:38:40 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:38:40 -0400
Subject: Who struck Billie Patterson
In-Reply-To: <200405311232.1buSwJ1303NZFmQ0@tanager>
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.223840.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On May 31, 2004, at 3:32 PM, Jerry Kane wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jerry Kane <Jerryekane at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Who struck Billie Patterson
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> In Los Angeles,  circa 1950, I heard and used the term "Who shot
> John?".
> John's
> imaginary body lay on the floor.
>
> Jerry E. Kane
> Los Angeles, CA
>

I've never used this phrase myself, but my mother, born 1914 in
Longview, TX, uses it all the time, but not as used here. She will say
something like, "That gal had the nerve to come to the board meeting
looking like who-shot-john," i.e. inappropriately dressed. In fact, now
that I think about it, my mother uses it _only_ in phrases involving
look/looks/looked, etc. like who-shot-john as a criticism of the way a
person is dressed.

-Wilson Gray


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Jun  1 02:42:08 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:42:08 -0400
Subject: "all stove up"
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.224208.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The OED lists it first from 1901.

1901 A. C. HEGAN Mrs Wiggs of Cabbage Patch ix. 127 If I was n't so stove
up, an' nobody was n't lookin', I'd jes' skitter 'round this here yard like
a colt!

I'd seriously doubt the connection with a stove.

Sam Clements

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nell Burr" <Nfburr at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 10:07 PM
Subject: "all stove up"


> My partner and I have been trying to track down the etymology of the
> expression "all stove up" which her father used to describe someone who's
very hurt,
> as in "he's all stove up."  Her father was born on the stake plains of
east
> Texas and his father took part in some of the last great cross-country
cattle
> drives as a cowboy for one of the large ranches, possibly the King Ranch.
Our
> best guess is that the expression was born when a cowboy was so injured he
> couldn't do any kind of work and had to just rest by the camp stove until
he was
> hopefully better.  It's logical, I suppose, but is it right?
>
> Also, if anyone can suggest a good book on the derivation of other western
> phrases, it would be much appreciated.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Nell
>


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Jun  1 02:55:14 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:55:14 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "stove up" 1879
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.225514.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, a quick check of Newspaperarchive turns up this Western? quote:

20 Jan. 1979, _Atchison(KS) Globe_ 2/2

<<The friends of Dave Turner will miss him because he was stove up lately on
Second street hill.>>

Now all you need is a "camp stove" predating 1879. :)

Sam Clements

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <SClements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: "all stove up"


> The OED lists it first from 1901.
>
> 1901 A. C. HEGAN Mrs Wiggs of Cabbage Patch ix. 127 If I was n't so stove
> up, an' nobody was n't lookin', I'd jes' skitter 'round this here yard
like
> a colt!
>
> I'd seriously doubt the connection with a stove.
>
> Sam Clements
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nell Burr" <Nfburr at AOL.COM>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 10:07 PM
> Subject: "all stove up"
>
>
> > My partner and I have been trying to track down the etymology of the
> > expression "all stove up" which her father used to describe someone
who's
> very hurt,
> > as in "he's all stove up."  Her father was born on the stake plains of
> east
> > Texas and his father took part in some of the last great cross-country
> cattle
> > drives as a cowboy for one of the large ranches, possibly the King
Ranch.
> Our
> > best guess is that the expression was born when a cowboy was so injured
he
> > couldn't do any kind of work and had to just rest by the camp stove
until
> he was
> > hopefully better.  It's logical, I suppose, but is it right?
> >
> > Also, if anyone can suggest a good book on the derivation of other
western
> > phrases, it would be much appreciated.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Nell
> >
>


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Jun  1 03:05:17 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:05:17 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "stove up" 1864
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.230517.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Alright.  I'll admit it.  It's an ego thing.  I enjoy posting antedates.  So
much so, that I don't do the slow, plodding, professional work that one
should.  So, another minute finds--
8 Jan. 1864   _Portland(OR) Oregonian_ 2/1

<<We are gone in, stove up, smashed, played out, used up, catawampused--in
fact, whipped.  Like old mother Earth, we are flattened at the polls.">>

That last was a reference by the writer to the "democratic party."

Sam Clements


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Jun  1 03:13:40 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:13:40 -0400
Subject: "stove up" (1864)
In-Reply-To: <002101c44783$dccfcbb0$3d611941@sam>
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.231340.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Stove" is the past participle of "stave", I believe. "Stave" is more or
less "smash" or perhaps "beat", so "stove up" is like "beat[en] up".

----------

_Morning Oregonian_ (Portland OR), 8 Jan. 1864: p. 2(?), col. 1:

<<We are gone in, stove up, smashed, played out, used up, catawampused --
in fact, whipped.>>

----------

-- Doug Wilson


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun  1 03:24:03 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:24:03 -0400
Subject: Off the wall
In-Reply-To: <200405310811.1buOrs2Ya3NZFkZ0@quail>
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.232403.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, the late, great blues harpist, Marion Walter "Little Walter"
Jacobs, recorded an instrumental with the title, "Off The Wall," on
March 4, 1953 at the Chess Records studio in Chicago.
Contemporaneously, the phrase, "off the wall," became hip among blacks.
We used it as a general pejorative with the meanings "lame, uncool,
unhip, countrified, stupid, fucked up," etc. In fact, we "old heads"
still use it with these meanings. I've long wondered whether the slang
term was derived from the song title or the song title was inspired by
the slang phrase. Normally, a song would become popular and contribute
new words and/or phrases to the vocabulary of slang. But "Off The
Wall," being an instrumental, had no words, except for its title. And
there's the mystery as to why this neutral phrase came to be used only
as a pejorative, given that a very similar phrase, "off the hook," is
used only as a meliorative.

On May 31, 2004, at 11:11 AM, Baker, John wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Off the wall
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>         It seems unlikely to me that the sense of "off the wall" used
> in The Pool Shark, in reference to a cue that is in a rack on the wall
> and for the general use of the pool room's customers (and thus is of
> lower quality and less reliable than a custom made cue used only by
> its owner), is the source of the familiar phrase meaning odd or crazy.
>  I suspect that this is a nonce-use, and it's a bit of a stretch to
> get from "generic and unreliable" to "odd or crazy."  I'm also
> doubtful of the suggestion in Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable
> (16th ed.) that it alludes to a shot in squash or handball that comes
> off the wall at an unexpected or erratic angle.  The third possibility
> I've come across makes more sense to me:  HDAS quotes English Jour.
> (Mar. 1968), "off-the-wall, means:  could you picture someone bouncing
> himself off a wall."  While this is not as early as it might be (the
> phrase is at least 15 years older), it's still relatively early, and
> it fits with the similar phrase "bouncing off the walls" (meaning
> hyperactive or crazy).
>
> John Baker
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Page Stephens
> Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 1:05 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Off the wall
>
>
> I am curious where this phrase originated.
>
> I have used it almost all of my life but have no idea.
>
> It was probably in common currency before I heard Dave Dudley's song
> The Pool Shark which goes as follows but it makes very much sense in
> this context that I hesitate to suggest that this is not its origin.
>
> This old pool, billiards and snooker  player who has both owned custom
> made cues and played off the wall would like to know.
>
> You might also like to look at the other phrases in the song including
> "glue 'em up tight", the use of the word, "honey", etc. and go from
> there.
>
> I appreciate the historical references which many of you find for
> usages of words and phrases but as an old anthropologist I am much
> more interested in usages in context at any point in time than I am
> investigating which may or may not have any relationship to the way
> they are/were later used.
>
> This particular song and I could give you a thousand other examples is
> like a usage dictionary frozen in time, and it is my opinion that such
> songs contain words and phrases which made sense to the people who
> heard them but which no longer make any sense to most listeners.
>
> My point if I even have one is that words and phrases cannot be
> understood in terms of their first use but only in terms of the way
> they are used at any point in time which for various socio-cultural,
> technological reasons freeze them.
>
> Page Stephens
>
> Here is the phrase in the song:
>
>             Dave Dudley Album - The Pool Shark lyrics. Date: 01/01/1970
>
>       Pool Shark lyrics
>
>       He said pardon me for bein' so bold but you got a cigarette
> that's already
>       rolled
>       I gave him one he lit it in his own good time
>       The smoke in that poolroom hung like a fog
>       When he talked it sounded like a growling dog
>       He said would you care for a dollar on the five or nine
>       Now this man was ugly and his eyes were mean
>       His clothes were dirty but his hands were clean
>       He held that stick like a mother holds the hand of the child
>       Well I've been known to hustle a few when the waitress said was
> he playing
>       you
>       And I said yeah bring me brandy water by
>       Little Red Parker was way in the back taking quarters and
> hadling racks
>       And I told him Red come up here glue 'em up tight
>       That brandy had me feeling warm I tipped that waitress and I
> checked her
>       form
>       And I said honey you like a winner and she just smiled
>       I played like a man with a broken wrist I won two and he won six
>       And I had him set up so I said let's play for five
>       But this time the crowd had gathered round to see this fish and
> just watch
>       him drown
>       I told that waitress more brandy water by
>       Then he went out and got a custom cue he said it's no offence to
> you
>       But I don't play off the wall with nobody but friends
>       He had a gold initials in a leather grip pearly and silver
> inlaid tip
>       He smiled at me and he said hell-a-way we play for ten
>       Well I never seen a man that walk who made those balls and table
> talk
>       They're speaking English he sure didn't need my help
>       He broke the ball and kept that string for a hundred and eighty
> seven
>       bucks and a ring
>       Till I gave up and said friend you're gonna have to play by
> yourself
>       Well he racked it up and walked outside and I strolled out just
> to watch
>       him ride
>       And there was a blonde in their Caddy built like the rest of
> that car
>       The boys in the poolroom they had 'em a laugh and I hung it up
> and just
>       let it pass
>       And had nothin' but my elbows to put on the bar
>       And the waitress smiled said water by I took the chairity and
> thanked her
>       polite
>       And sittin' there sippin' and suddenly I had me a thought
>       Unlucky gambler and lucky in love guess you know what I was
> thinking of
>       When I said waitress honey what time do you get off
>
>       Copyright(c) 2002-2004 songlyricscollection.com
>       Dave Dudley - Pool Shark lyrics albums, discography of Dave
> Dudley
>


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Jun  1 03:36:25 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:36:25 -0400
Subject: Early use of "phatt" (1873)
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.233625.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Using Newspaperarchive, we find:

3 June, 1955  _Bennington(VT) Evening Banner_  8/5

(This article is referring to Copies of "Josh Billings' Farmer's Alliminax."  One was 1873, one was 1878.

<<Here is a sample of what she found in the 1873 copy:
   
    Joel Briggs a peddlar was, 
    A peddlar of renown,
   He delt in tin ware and sl(?)ich,
   And druv frum town to town.

   "Once his hoss had been a nag,
    A troiting nag at that,
    But now he was a pelter,
   An enny thing but phatt.>>

Now--I have a question.  What's the dialect that 'Josh Bilings' stuff represents?  Black?  Poor white?  I'm sure that I could find it, but others here surely know the answer, and it's getting late.  

Sam Clements


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun  1 03:37:35 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:37:35 -0400
Subject: Off the wall
In-Reply-To: <21E72535-B37B-11D8-A6B6-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.233735.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:24 PM -0400 5/31/04, Wilson Gray wrote:
>FWIW, the late, great blues harpist, Marion Walter "Little Walter"
>Jacobs, recorded an instrumental with the title, "Off The Wall," on
>March 4, 1953 at the Chess Records studio in Chicago.
>Contemporaneously, the phrase, "off the wall," became hip among blacks.
>We used it as a general pejorative with the meanings "lame, uncool,
>unhip, countrified, stupid, fucked up," etc. In fact, we "old heads"
>still use it with these meanings. I've long wondered whether the slang
>term was derived from the song title or the song title was inspired by
>the slang phrase. Normally, a song would become popular and contribute
>new words and/or phrases to the vocabulary of slang. But "Off The
>Wall," being an instrumental, had no words, except for its title. And
>there's the mystery as to why this neutral phrase came to be used only
>as a pejorative, given that a very similar phrase, "off the hook," is
>used only as a meliorative.
>
How similar is it?  I assume "off the hook" is a reference to
fishing, while that's not involved in "off the wall".

Larry


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun  1 03:55:01 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:55:01 -0400
Subject: Off the wall
In-Reply-To: <200405312037.1bv05OHY3NZFmQ0@tanager>
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.235501.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There are two different "off the hooks," so to speak. The fishing one
has to do primarily with getting out of a tight. (In BE, it's not
necessary to add "spot" or some such after "tight"). "The note from my
wife got me off the hook." The other, hip-hop one is derived from
phrases like, "The telephone has been ringing _off the hook_ all day"
because something really important is happening and you need to know
about it, so you can get the hook-up.

-Wilson

On May 31, 2004, at 11:37 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Off the wall
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 11:24 PM -0400 5/31/04, Wilson Gray wrote:
>> FWIW, the late, great blues harpist, Marion Walter "Little Walter"
>> Jacobs, recorded an instrumental with the title, "Off The Wall," on
>> March 4, 1953 at the Chess Records studio in Chicago.
>> Contemporaneously, the phrase, "off the wall," became hip among
>> blacks.
>> We used it as a general pejorative with the meanings "lame, uncool,
>> unhip, countrified, stupid, fucked up," etc. In fact, we "old heads"
>> still use it with these meanings. I've long wondered whether the slang
>> term was derived from the song title or the song title was inspired by
>> the slang phrase. Normally, a song would become popular and contribute
>> new words and/or phrases to the vocabulary of slang. But "Off The
>> Wall," being an instrumental, had no words, except for its title. And
>> there's the mystery as to why this neutral phrase came to be used only
>> as a pejorative, given that a very similar phrase, "off the hook," is
>> used only as a meliorative.
>>
> How similar is it?  I assume "off the hook" is a reference to
> fishing, while that's not involved in "off the wall".
>
> Larry
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Jun  1 05:12:21 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 01:12:21 -0400
Subject: Off the wall
In-Reply-To: <p0432040bbce1aa476e7d@[130.132.166.218]>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.011221.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's another possibility, and I sorta like this one.

"Off the wall" = "cracked" or so.

Think Humpty Dumpty.

-- Doug Wilson


From dave at WILTON.NET  Tue Jun  1 05:17:38 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:17:38 -0700
Subject: Early use of "phatt" (1873)
In-Reply-To: <005101c44789$9def64e0$3d611941@sam>
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.221738.0700.>

Henry Wheeler Shaw, who used the pseudonym was born and raised in
Massachusetts. As an adult he settled in Poughkeepsie, NY, where he did most
of his writing. "Josh Billings" was poor, white, and rural. I assume that he
was supposed to be from either New England or upstate NY.

Whether this represents a continuous line of usage is a question. I would
suspect that the modern, urban use of "phat/phatt" is a separate coinage.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Sam Clements
> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 8:36 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Early use of "phatt" (1873)
>
>
> Using Newspaperarchive, we find:
>
> 3 June, 1955  _Bennington(VT) Evening Banner_  8/5
>
> (This article is referring to Copies of "Josh Billings' Farmer's
> Alliminax."  One was 1873, one was 1878.
>
> <<Here is a sample of what she found in the 1873 copy:
>
>     Joel Briggs a peddlar was,
>     A peddlar of renown,
>    He delt in tin ware and sl(?)ich,
>    And druv frum town to town.
>
>    "Once his hoss had been a nag,
>     A troiting nag at that,
>     But now he was a pelter,
>    An enny thing but phatt.>>
>
> Now--I have a question.  What's the dialect that 'Josh Bilings'
> stuff represents?  Black?  Poor white?  I'm sure that I could
> find it, but others here surely know the answer, and it's getting late.
>
> Sam Clements
>
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  1 05:37:20 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 01:37:20 EDT
Subject: Sport Peppers (1980); Slider/Slyder (1983);  Italian Beef
 Sandwich (1953)
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.013720.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SPORT PEPPERS
  
   DARE's Joan Hall asked:
  
Sometime within the last few months I've seen a discussion of "sport pepper," 
the small, somewhat spicy, pickled pepper that accompanies a Chicago-style 
hot dog.  I assumed that it was here on the list, but I don'tfind it in the 
archives.  Does anyone else remember such a discussion, hereor anywhere else?  
(This preceded the reference in the New York Times on April 14.)  Our earliest 
citation right now is from 1996, which seems very late.  Any earlier ones would 
be appreciated, as would personalrecollections of the term (when and where).
Thanks,
Joan
    
 
   It's not in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, up to 1946 on ProQuest.  We just have to 
wait longer.
   Newspaperarchive.com seems to have added some Chicago newspapers very 
recently (see "Italian Beef" discussion below), but I still didn't see it there.
   In November 2003 I'd posted this, which _is_ in the ADS-L archives:
  
  
(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
'RED HOT CHICAGO' PUTS ON THE DOG:[SPORTS FINAL, D Edition]
Chicago Tribune (Pre-1997 Fulltext). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 10, 1986.  pg. 11.B
Red Hot Chicago," an award-winning entertainment special that takes an 
upbeat, humorous look at America's favorite food, the hot dog, will be shown at 9 
p.m. Wednesday on WTTW-Ch. 11.
  
The half-hour program focuses on the Chicago-style frankfurter, a steamed hot 
dog traditionally topped with mustard, pickle relish and chopped onions as 
well as fresh sliced tomato, wedges of dill pickles, hot sport peppers, shredded 
lettuce, cucumber slices and celery salt.
(This is also the first citation on www.chicagotribune.com--ed.)
  
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--WASHINGTON POST)
Dog Days on the Potomac
By Diane Granat Special to The Washington Post. The Washington Post 
(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Sep 11, 1980. p. E1 (2 pages)
("Sport peppers" appears to be here in tiny print on E21.  The Chicago 
article is described in detail--ed.)   
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SLIDER
  
   I don't know if DARE will have this.  I had a shake tonight at Sassy's 
Sliders (www.sassyssliders.com).  We've discussed the "slider" before, but didn't 
arrive at an early citation date.
    
    
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  The Golden Oldie: McHeaven Can Whit; Does McDonald's No. 1, In Des 
Plaines, Ill., Face Fallen Arches? The Original McDonald's faces a Case of 
fallen Arches 
By Paul Hendrickson. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, 
D.C.: Jan 11, 1983. p. C1 (2 pages) 
     
    2.  White Castle's Search for Youth; Old White Castle Chain Seeks a 
Youthful Image 
By JULIA FLYNN SILERSpecial to The New York Times. New York Times 
(1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 7, 1988. p. 37 (2 pages)   
    
  
(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   SLYDERS 
Goods and Services  (ABANDONED) IC 042. US 100. G & S: HAMBURGER SLYDER 
RESTAURANT FRANCHISING. FIRST USE: 19830101. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19830105  
Mark Drawing Code   (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS  
Serial Number   73436740    
Filing Date July 11, 1983   
Current Filing Basis    1A  
Original Filing Basis   1A  
Owner   (APPLICANT) CHICAGO HAMBURGER CO. RESTAURANT, CORP CORPORATION 
ILLINOIS 306 N. GALENA ST. FREEPORT ILLINOIS 61032 
Type of Mark    SERVICE MARK    
Register    PRINCIPAL   
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD    
Abandonment Date    October 31, 1984    
 
 
(TRADEMARK)
Word Mark   SLYDERS 
Goods and Services  IC 030. US 046. G & S: prepared sandwiches for 
consumption on or off the premises. FIRST USE: 19930314. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19930314   

Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING   
Serial Number   74384698    
Filing Date April 30, 1993  
Current Filing Basis    1A  
Original Filing Basis   1A  
Supplemental Register Date  May 4, 1994 
Registration Number 1861520 
Registration Date   November 1, 1994    
Owner   (REGISTRANT) White Castle System, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 555 West 
Goodale Street Columbus OHIO 432151171   
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED 
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK   
Register    SUPPLEMENTAL    
Affidavit Text  SECT 8 (6-YR).  
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE    
  
  
(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   WHITE CASTLE SLIDER PILOT   
Goods and Services  (CANCELLED) IC 025. US 039. G & S: clothing; namely, 
caps, shirts, and sweatshirts. FIRST USE: 19910820. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 
19910827    
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING   
Serial Number   74279948    
Filing Date June 1, 1992    
Current Filing Basis    1A  
Original Filing Basis   1A  
Published for Opposition    November 10, 1992   
Registration Number 1750223 
Registration Date   February 2, 1993    
Owner   (REGISTRANT) White Castle System, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 555 West 
Goodale Street Columbus OHIO 432151158   
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED 
Attorney of Record  Belinda L. Reynolds 
Prior Registrations 0501821;0535144;0962253;1303293;1308422;AND OTHERS  
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK   
Register    PRINCIPAL   
Affidavit Text  SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). 
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD    
Cancellation Date   November 8, 2003    

  
(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   SLIDERS BURGERS & DOGS  
Goods and Services  IC 042. US 100. G & S: restaurant services featuring 
hamburgers and hot dogs for consumption on or off the premises. FIRST USE: 
19930413. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19930413   
Mark Drawing Code   (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS  
Design Search Code  220101  
Serial Number   74417469    
Filing Date July 27, 1993   
Current Filing Basis    1A  
Original Filing Basis   1A  
Published for Opposition    October 18, 1994    
Registration Number 1872939 
Registration Date   January 10, 1995    
Owner   (REGISTRANT) DETROIT TIGERS, INC. CORPORATION MICHIGAN 150 West 
Jefferson, Suite 2500 Detroit MICHIGAN 48226  
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED 
Attorney of Record  Brian D. Anderson   
Disclaimer  NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "BURGERS & DOGS" 
APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN  
Description of Mark The lining in the drawing is a feature of the mark and 
does not represent color.  
Type of Mark    SERVICE MARK    
Register    PRINCIPAL   
Affidavit Text  SECT 8 (6-YR).  
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE    
  
 
(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   BETTY BROWN'S BROADWAY DINING FOUNTAIN SERVICE SLIDERS  
Goods and Services  (ABANDONED) IC 042. US 100. G & S: EAT IN AND TAKE OUT 
RESTAURANT SERVICES. FIRST USE: 19851218. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19851218  
Mark Drawing Code   (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS  
Design Search Code  071302 241525 260101 261321 
Serial Number   73594369    
Filing Date April 21, 1986  
Current Filing Basis    1A  
Original Filing Basis   1A  
Owner   (APPLICANT) FATHER BRAD'S BROADWAY DINING INC. CORPORATION NEW YORK 
215 WEST 29TH STREET NEW YORK NEW YORK 10001  
Attorney of Record  HOWARD N. ARONSON   
Type of Mark    SERVICE MARK    
Register    PRINCIPAL   
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD    
Abandonment Date    January 23, 1987    
  
 
(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   SLIDERS 
Goods and Serrvices  (ABANDONED) IC 042. US 100. G & S: RESTAURANT SERVICES. 
FIRST USE: 19830420. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19830420 
Mark Drawing Code   (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM 
Serial Number   73440658    
Filing Date August 23, 1983 
Current Filing Basis    1A  
Original Filing Basis   1A  
Owner   (APPLICANT) PAGANES, RICHARD UR DBA, SLIDERS HAMBURGER STAND 
INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 30991 UTICA RD. ROSEVILLE MICHIGAN 48066    
Attorney of Record  WILLIAM J. SCHRAMM  
Type of Mark    SERVICE MARK    
Register    PRINCIPAL   
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD    
Abandonment Date    March 21, 1984  

  
(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   SLIDERS 
Goods and Services  (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: FAST FOOD HAMBURGERS. 
FIRST USE: 19830215. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19830301 
Mark Drawing Code   (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS  
Serial Number   73419891    
Filing Date April 4, 1983   
Current Filing Basis    1A  
Original Filing Basis   1A  
Owner   (APPLICANT) GARNER CORPORATION CORPORATION COLORADO 6600 E. HAMPDEN 
AVE. 3RD FLOOR DENVER COLORADO 80224  
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK   
Register    PRINCIPAL   
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD    
Abandonment Date    November 17, 1983   


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Frederick Post - 7/7/1993   
...who visited Columbus, ate 10 SLIDERS for the first time, and was 
so.....Each of us had a vanilla shake and FRIES. I felt fine the next day. If you..
Frederick, Maryland Wednesday, July 07, 1993  747 k     
    
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CHICAGO'S FAMOUS "ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICHES"
    
   See the ProQuest citations below.  There's NOTHING for "Italian beef" in 
the Chicago Tribune (up to 1946)!
   Newspaperarchive.com has some interesting hits, for anyone interested.
  
  
(GOOGLE)
Chicago's famous Italian beef sandwichesChicago's famous Italian beef 
sandwiches. Ochef.com answers life’s vexing cooking questions each day. ... Chicago 
Italian Beef Sandwich. Ingredients: ... 
www.ochef.com/146.htm - 22k - Cached - Similar pages    

Chowhound's Chicago Area Message Board: Best Italian beef in ...Chowhound's 
Chicago Area Message Board. Subject: Best Italian beef in Chicago and burbs 
Name: Brian Schwartz Posted: May 01, 2004 at 11:18:07 ... 
www.chowhound.com/midwest/boards/ chicago/messages/47119.html - 9k - Cached - 
Similar pages   

RecipeSource: Chicago Italian Beef Sandwiches... of Recipes and your source 
for recipes on the Internet. Home : Main Dishes : Sandwich Recipes : Chicago 
Italian Beef Sandwiches. ... 
www.recipesource.com/main-dishes/ sandwiches/03/rec0308.html - 10k - Cached - 
Similar pages   

chicago italian beef sandwicheschicago italian beef sandwiches Notes If you 
fix a large roast for dinner, take the leftovers, sliced thinly, and put your 
Italian ... 
www.sweetbabymedia.com/recipes/ allbynumber4/017052.shtml - 13k - Cached - 
Similar pages  

Chicago Style Italian Beef... Chicago Style Italian Beef Recipe By : 
Florentina Website : http://www.crockerykitchen.com Serves/Makes : 8 Categories : 
Sandwiches 1 rump roast, rolled flour ... 
www.crockerykitchen.com/recipes/ca/ sandw/ca-sand1035342799.shtml - 11k - 
Cached - Similar pages  


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("Italian beef")
    1.  ITALIAN BEEF.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 2, 1882. p. 12 (1 
page) 
     
    2.  Display Ad 79 -- No Title
The Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Jan 15, 1919. p. II6 (1 page) 
      
    3.  PRACTICAL RECIPES; Helps for Epicures and All Who Appreciate Good 
Cooking 
The Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Oct 21, 1922. p. II7 (1 page)    
      
    4.  CHEF WYMAN'S Suggestions For TOMORROW'S MENU
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 6, 1927. p. 
A6 (1 page) 
      
    5.  CHEF WYMANS RECIPES; MAPLE BAVARIAN CREAM 
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 13, 1929. p. 
A6 (1 page) 
      
    6.  The Lancer
Harry Carr. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 
8, 1932. p. A1 (1 page) 
      
    7.  Cape Town Men Refuse To Load Beef for Italians
Wireless to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New 
York, N.Y.: Sep 2, 1935. p. 1 (1 page)   
     
    8.  Croquettes Make Tasty Encore
LONA GILBERT. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 
24, 1938. p. A8 (1 page) 
    
    9.  Y-Wives Club Feeds On Recipe Ideas; Y-Wives Swap Recipe Ideas 
By Maxine Cheshire. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). 
Washington, D.C.: Nov 1, 1956. p. C13 (2 pages)     
    
       
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("Italian beef sandwich")
Mansfield News Journal - 12/4/1953  
...for luncheon. Pizza pie, ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICH and swiss steak. 
Evenings.....byKarL _________ NEW? TRY IT Genuine ITALIAN Pizza to take "ONE-STOP..
Mansfield, Ohio Friday, December 04, 1953  775 k    
        
Southtown Economist - 5/14/1958     
...you to try our delicious Pizza ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICHES on French topped 
with..
Chicago, Illinois Wednesday, May 14, 1958  633 k    
     
Southtown Economist - 6/29/1958     
...6rand Opeiif ng jH. PIZZA BEEF SANDWICHES FOR DE LISA SPECIAL A.....PIZZA 
SPECIAL FOR 50c DELICIOUS ITALIAN BEEF ON OUR TASTY FRENCH BREAD..
Chicago, Illinois Sunday, June 29, 1958  504 k      
        
Oshkosh Daily Northwestern - 7/31/1959  
...ACCORDION SERVING AT ALL TIMES: Hot BEEF SANDWICHES Homc-Bohcd Bean? 
COLD.....NEWEST AND FINEST IN OSHKOSH FEATURING ITALIAN BEEF AND PORK SAUSAGES FOR 
THE..
Oshkosh, Wisconsin Friday, July 31, 1959  762 k     
      
Edwardsville Intelligencer - 1/9/1960   
...broiled steaks. Try our famous ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICH on Vienna roll. We 
serve.....3506 John Elalavonich. Stnunton, til. BEEF QUARTERSDressed hogs. 
Government..
Edwardsville, Illinois Saturday, January 09, 1960  726 k    
     
Holland Evening Sentinel - 9/9/1964     
...up hamburgers and roast BEEF. ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICH is a rieal-in-itsclf 
when.....wholesome meals without gt; ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICH fuss Canned BEEF, 
chicken..
Holland, Michigan Wednesday, September 09, 1964  929 k      
    
Iowa City Press Citizen - 9/18/1969     
...HAM on Frer.cn Bread .C'> ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICH Choice cf BEEF aa 
Jus.....on Brown Bread .95 ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICH on French Bread J95 MEATBALL..
Iowa City, Iowa Thursday, September 18, 1969  528 k     
  
Journal - 1/9/1974  
...MEATBALLS SANDWICH ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICH JANUARY SPECIAL LUNCH FOR 
554.....CHICAGO, ILL. 622-7999 CHAR-BURGERS, BEEF SANDWICH..
Chicago, Illinois Wednesday, January 09, 1974  423 k    
    
World - 10/9/1974   
...15' Extra On All SANDWICHes ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICH I05 POLISH 
SAUSAGE.....Order will be ready when you arrive BEEF BURGERS Bun All The Way On a Tasty..
Chicago, Illinois Wednesday, October 09, 1974  422 k    
    
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
OT:  DAVID SHULMAN FIASCO FALLOUT
  
   It's been a great month.  Censored from Google Answers for providing a 
correct answer on "the Big Apple."  Begging an entire month before the New York 
Public Library's Ask-A-Librarian to change an incorrect "Big Apple" FAQ.  
Having your ridiculous salary broadcast in the New York Times.
   But nothing tops yesterday's $850-a-month handover request by David 
Shulman.  (For those of you who don't know, the 91-year-old David Shulman has been 
an ADS-member for about 65 years.)
   Today (a holiday), I phoned my sister.  She has an autistic child.  She 
was incredulous.  She said I shouldn't even be giving him t-shirts, or paying 
for his books, or giving him a penny.  She has a good point.
   At Parking Violations, I've given t-shirts to someone there as well.  
"I'll PAY you," he always says, like it was some favor.  Then he points to his 
wallet.  "FILTHY LUCRE!"  When I return with the goods, he says,"How much is it?  
Five dollars?"
   I returned from a long 20+-hour flight from Africa last month.  My ears 
couldn't hear after the long flight.  I worked the next day.  In my rush for the 
subway, I left the bag of t-shirts at the newsstand, and they were lost.
   He wouldn't pay for it.
   I said that I had shirts just like it, for myself.  He said to bring them 
in to work.
   "What do you want for these?  Five dollars?  I'll PAY you for it!"
   For those just joining us after reading Safire's column...well, it's a 
long story.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  1 07:49:54 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 03:49:54 EDT
Subject: Snicker doodle (1902)
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.034954.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The ProQuest Chicago Tribune database comes through again.  See past
citations for "snickerdoodle(s)" and "snicker doodle(s)" and "snippy doodle(s)" in
the ADS-L archives.
   DARE (the Dictionary of American Regional English) stops at the letters
"Sk" with volume four.  They owe me a snack.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Other 4 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 25, 1902. p. 12 (1
page)
("A LINE-O'-TYPE OR TWO" by B. L. T.--ed.)
   THE ARISTOCRATIC AND LITERARY
      SNICKER DOODLE
   The weekly reading was conducted last Thursday afternoon at the residence
of Mrs. Hiatt.  Quite a number of ladies were present with some light work.
Refreshments of coffee, chocolate and snicker doodles and cheese were
served.--Mount Vernon (Ind.) Democrat.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  1 08:33:45 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 04:33:45 EDT
Subject: Duck Soup (1897)
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.043345.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Another gem from the newly digitized Proquest Chicago Tribune!  This is
like duck soup.
   The term was not coined by the Marx brothers, of course.  The HISTORICAL
DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG has 1902, from T. A. Dorgan.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Other 12 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 23, 1897. p. 10 (1
page) :
   P. A. Brady, one of the more successful of retired bookmakers, and
formerly an owner of race horses, said: "It has now come to an issue where every man
must show his colors.  I am out of the business and so this fight is duck soup
for me."


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Tue Jun  1 12:19:29 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 08:19:29 -0400
Subject: Preakness
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.081929.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Damien Hall <halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>

<snip>

: From my reading, the name of Preakness (NJ) is a member of the small
: class of words (eg *great*, *break*) which were not included in the
: sound-change whereby <ea> came to be pronounced [i:];  according to
: my reading, Preakness, NJ is pronounced [preiknIs].

: But, twice in the last two days, I've heard National Public Radio
: announcers pronounce it [prikn at s] ([@] = schwa).  Is this
: widely-attested?  Could we be witnessing a change in the normative
: pronunciation?

Coming into this a bit late, but i thought it might be useful to toss out a
Maryland native's (b. 1970, grew up south of DC) take on this: Growing up, i
never, ever heard "Preakness" pronounced as anything other than [prikn at s].
(I use the transcription system where [i] is tense, [I] is lax.) I was more
than shocked to find out, in grad school, that the Preakness was "actually"
pronounced [prekn at s].

One time i did fieldwork in Southern Maryland a bit ago, i figured i'd see
if i was just weird, and i asked people how they pronounced the name of the
race. By far the most common answer? [pImlIko], after the town it's run
in--and that's among the relatively few who could come up with a name for
the race at all. Kind of fitting for the forgotten leg of the Triple Crown,
actually.

Now if people could just explain why the play "O Christmas tree" before the
Preakness starts...

<snip>

(In fear someone takes that last bit seriously: Yes, i do know why. I'm a
native Marylander, remember? I'm *used* to cringing at my state's anthem.)

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  1 12:27:34 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 08:27:34 EDT
Subject: Railroad Fried Rice etc.
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.082734.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated  Mon, 31 May 2004 17:39:53 EDT,   Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

>  RAILROAD FRIED RICE
>     I dined at the Thai restaurant Sa-Way on First Avenue and East 77th
Street
>  last night.  It has:
>  RAILROAD FRIED RICE 9.95--Marinated in our own very special red sauce, with
>  white meat chicken and succulent shrimp.
>
>     I usually don't associate railroads with fine dining.  No one goes into
>  the Four Seasons and asks for the "Amtrak Special."

On the contrary.  In the grand days of Pullman travel (say before WWII),
railroad dining cars had a reputation for fine cuisine.  It was mostly lost in the
post-WWII pre-Amtrak decline of railroad passenger service, but has not been
entirely lost.  (I met someone who would take the Southern Crescent from
Washington DC to Alexandria VA just to eat in the Crescent's dining car.)

I once tried, without success, to determine if hash-browns were invented by
railroad dining car chefs.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Which leads to the word "pax".  The National Railroad Passenger Corporation,
before it paid a New York advertising firm to invent the name "Amtrak", was
referred to as "Railpax".

Also it might be relevant to note that the Patuxent River Naval Air Station
in Maryland is commonly referred to as "Pax River" or simply as "Pax".

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Back to dining, sort of.  My guess about "all stove up" is that it refers not
to camp stoves but to the stove wood that they burned, which has to be
chopped up into pieces small enough to fit into the stove.  Hence the wood (or so I
speculate) had to be "all stove up", with a natural extension to someone who
was beaten up or otherwise incapacitated as "all stove up".

       - Jim Landau


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Jun  1 12:35:29 2004
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Allen D. Maberry)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 05:35:29 -0700
Subject: "all stove up"
In-Reply-To: <200406010218.i512I7EY009347@mxe1.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.053529.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've heard "all stove up" all my life (Oregon and Washington). I don't know the actual derivation of it, but I've always heard it in the sense of being very stiff and sore, or having severe stiffness in one's joints and having difficulty moving, not necessarily being badly injured. Since the way I heard the expression used indicated being stiff and sore, I always figured it being used as a form of "to stiffen" in the expession "stiffen up".

allen


On Mon, 31 May 2004, Nell Burr wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Nell Burr <Nfburr at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      "all stove up"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> My partner and I have been trying to track down the etymology of the
> expression "all stove up" which her father used to describe someone who's very hurt,
> as in "he's all stove up."  Her father was born on the stake plains of east
> Texas and his father took part in some of the last great cross-country cattle
> drives as a cowboy for one of the large ranches, possibly the King Ranch.  Our
> best guess is that the expression was born when a cowboy was so injured he
> couldn't do any kind of work and had to just rest by the camp stove until he was
> hopefully better.  It's logical, I suppose, but is it right?
>
> Also, if anyone can suggest a good book on the derivation of other western
> phrases, it would be much appreciated.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Nell
>


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  1 12:56:15 2004
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 05:56:15 -0700
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <D300AAD4-B372-11D8-A6B6-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.055615.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I grew up in central Virginia in the fifties and sixties and 'phat' was a popular term among me and my friends (and FWIW, I am black).


Wilson Gray <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:

 Note also that my cousin spelled and defined
"phatt" and not "phat" and that this occurred more than five decades
ago. A whole lot of water has gone under that temporal bridge. It's
also the case that, until the advent of hip-hop slang, no form of this
word was used anywhere that I've ever lived - Texas, Missouri,
California, Massachuseetts, Pennsylvania - by anyone of any race or
social class or age group.
-Wilson Gray

Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Professor of English & Linguistics
  and University Editor
Department of English
Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home)
margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu   or   mlee303 at yahoo.com

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends.  Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Tue Jun  1 12:59:08 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 08:59:08 -0400
Subject: "all stove up"
In-Reply-To: <200406011235.ATA68365@mirapointmr2.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.085908.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:35 AM 6/1/2004, you wrote:
>I've heard "all stove up" all my life (Oregon and Washington). I don't
>know the actual derivation of it, but I've always heard it in the sense of
>being very stiff and sore, or having severe stiffness in one's joints and
>having difficulty moving, not necessarily being badly injured. Since the
>way I heard the expression used indicated being stiff and sore, I always
>figured it being used as a form of "to stiffen" in the expession "stiffen up".

Having read lots of seafaring books I'm making a WAG here, but I'd guess
that 'stove-up' is derived from the same root as 'stove-in', meaning busted
up, smashed, especially of the hull of boats.  According to the OED it
derives from 'stave' (v.) meaning to break up a barrel into its component
staves.

Geoff


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Tue Jun  1 13:29:01 2004
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 09:29:01 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=22all?= stove =?utf-8?Q?up=22?=
In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040601085621.026708a0@mail.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.092901.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Geoff Nathan writes:

> At 08:35 AM 6/1/2004, you wrote:
>> I've heard "all stove up" all my life (Oregon and Washington). I don't
>> know the actual derivation of it, but I've always heard it in the sense
>> of
>> being very stiff and sore, or having severe stiffness in one's joints and
>> having difficulty moving, not necessarily being badly injured. Since the
>> way I heard the expression used indicated being stiff and sore, I always
>> figured it being used as a form of "to stiffen" in the expession "stiffen
>> up".
>
> Having read lots of seafaring books I'm making a WAG here, but I'd guess
> that 'stove-up' is derived from the same root as 'stove-in', meaning
> busted
> up, smashed, especially of the hull of boats.  According to the OED it
> derives from 'stave' (v.) meaning to break up a barrel into its component
> staves.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the verb form "To accidently bend back (a
finger or toe) and injure the joint at its base," which is the only meaning
I recognize.
___________________________
David Bergdahl


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  1 13:33:22 2004
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 09:33:22 EDT
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.093322.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This reminds me of the Weavers' song-- not sure of the title but the first
line is "We sailed on the ship John D."  --they sing "I feel so break-up, I
wanna go home"   When I heard the Beach Boys version not so long ago they changed
it to "I feel so broke up" which makes more sense to me-- almost in the sense
we're talking about in "stove up"-- can anyone enlighten me on "feel so
break-up?"  why break and not broke?

DF Coye
The College of NJ


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun  1 14:06:12 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 10:06:12 -0400
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
In-Reply-To: <200406010633.1bv9oH13M3NZFlr0@killdeer>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.100612.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 1, 2004, at 9:33 AM, Dale Coye wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Dale Coye <Dalecoye at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> This reminds me of the Weavers' song-- not sure of the title but the
> first
> line is "We sailed on the ship John D."  --they sing "I feel so
> break-up, I
> wanna go home"   When I heard the Beach Boys version not so long ago
> they changed
> it to "I feel so broke up" which makes more sense to me-- almost in
> the sense
> we're talking about in "stove up"-- can anyone enlighten me on "feel so
> break-up?"  why break and not broke?
>
> DF Coye
> The College of NJ

"The Ship 'John B.'" is a folksong of Caribbean origin - Jamaican, I
think, but maybe not - and uses some form of Caribbean English. Is it
true that the Beach Boys sing "broke up"? I've always heard it as
"break up." My mistake, I guess.

-Wilson Gray


From markjjones at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  1 15:29:05 2004
From: markjjones at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Jones)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 15:29:05 +0000
Subject: American English interdental /l/
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.152905.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear List Members,

As a native speaker of British English, I have the impression that an
interdental lateral /l/ is a possible realisation in American English,
perhaps associated with young West Coast females. I would appreciate
hearing from anyone who has any insights and observations, or
published data, on how common this realisation of /l/ is and whether
my impressions are correct. I will post a summary of any responses in
due course.

This request for information has also been posted on LinguistList. I
apologise to those of you who have received it from both sources.

Many thanks

Mark

Mark J. Jones
Department of Linguistics
University of Cambridge, UK

_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE connection, FREE modem and one month's FREE line rental, plus a
US or European flight when you sign up for BT Broadband!
http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun  1 15:47:49 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 11:47:49 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <200406010556.1bv8Oz3RB3NZFmQ0@tanager>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.114749.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That's interesting to know. I'd always considered the use of "phat(t)"
to be strictly a local, New-York-City thing. I also considered it to be
a lame, off-the-wall expression with no staying power. To this day,
I've never had occasion to speak this word. Even when I was in the
Army, with other brothers from all over the US, I never heard anyone
use "phat(t)." Imagine my astonishment when it, from my point of view,
suddenly rose from the dead, decades after the one other time that I'd
ever heard it, riding the crest of the wave of hip-hop. As the late,
great Fats Waller once put it, "One never knows, do one?"

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 1, 2004, at 8:56 AM, Margaret Lee wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Margaret Lee <mlee303 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I grew up in central Virginia in the fifties and sixties and 'phat'
> was a popular term among me and my friends (and FWIW, I am black).
>
>
> Wilson Gray <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
>
>  Note also that my cousin spelled and defined
> "phatt" and not "phat" and that this occurred more than five decades
> ago. A whole lot of water has gone under that temporal bridge. It's
> also the case that, until the advent of hip-hop slang, no form of this
> word was used anywhere that I've ever lived - Texas, Missouri,
> California, Massachuseetts, Pennsylvania - by anyone of any race or
> social class or age group.
> -Wilson Gray
>
> Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
> Professor of English & Linguistics
>   and University Editor
> Department of English
> Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
> 757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home)
> margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu   or   mlee303 at yahoo.com
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Friends.  Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger
>


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Jun  1 15:52:11 2004
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 11:52:11 -0400
Subject: American English interdental /l/
In-Reply-To: <BAY1-F130YCGr25y0EL0003ab30@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.115211.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark Jones said:
>Dear List Members,
>
>As a native speaker of British English, I have the impression that an
>interdental lateral /l/ is a possible realisation in American English,
>perhaps associated with young West Coast females. I would appreciate
>hearing from anyone who has any insights and observations, or
>published data, on how common this realisation of /l/ is and whether
>my impressions are correct. I will post a summary of any responses in
>due course.
>
>This request for information has also been posted on LinguistList. I
>apologise to those of you who have received it from both sources.

Here's a New York anecdote for you.

One of the sports anchors on a radio station I listen to is named
"Bob Galercole". Until I saw his name written down, I thought it was
"Gathercole".

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Jun  1 16:15:17 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:15:17 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.121517.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        This is extremely interesting information.  It shows that phat(t) was in use over 50 years ago, and that the acronymic etymology is quite old.  What it does not tell us is whether phat(t) actually originated as an acronym (though of course the age of the acronymic etymology is evidence in that direction).  After all, we know that pumpernickel does not derive from "C'est bon pour Nichol," even though that explanation accompanies the first use of "pumpernickel" in English.  Unless your cousin or one of her acquaintances actually coined "phatt," then her account is not going to be definitive.

        Jonathon Green and Arnold Zwicky may not be black (I'm guessing that they're not), but they're two of the most knowledgeable posters on ADS-L.  In any case, I think there is a plethora of examples to show that ordinary users of terms typically don't understand the terms' derivations.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Wilson Gray
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 10:25 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]


In 1950, my cousin and I were both thirteen years old. I really doubt
that she would have been sophisticated enough at that age to have made
up this derivation. And, given that adults are extremely unlikely to be
aware of the slanguage used by children on the street, especially in
the 'Fifties, I doubt that some well- or ill-meaning adult took her
aside and explained it to her. I conclude, therefore, that the
definition - not hypothesis - that she gave was a genuine one from the
streets of New York City. Note also that my cousin spelled and defined
"phatt" and not "phat" and that this occurred more than five decades
ago. A whole lot of water has gone under that temporal bridge. It's
also the case that, until the advent of hip-hop slang, no form of this
word was used anywhere that I've ever lived - Texas, Missouri,
California, Massachuseetts, Pennsylvania - by anyone of any race or
social class or age group. Even my cousin didn't use the word, except
for that one time, when she was clearly trying to gross out her hick
cousin from the sticks by using language reserved for the use of males.
Hence, it was a hapax legomenon for me prior to coming of hip-hop. The
rest of your argument re acronymic derivation, given that "fuck" is not
slang but standard English, is irrevelant. Besides, Arnold, you're
white and I'll bet that  you've never had any occasion whatsoever to
live among or come to know intimately black people. I, on the other
hand, am black and, naturally, have always lived among black people,
except for the time that I spent at M.I.T., back in the day. An
argument based on what is typical with respect to whites won't map onto
what is typical among blacks.

-Wilson Gray


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun  1 17:00:36 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 13:00:36 -0400
Subject: Early use of "phatt" (1873)
In-Reply-To: <20040601040432.8D0A92282A@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.130036.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sam Clements <SClements at NEO.RR.COM> scripsit:
        >>>
<<Here is a sample of what she found in the 1873 copy:
    Joel Briggs a peddlar was,
    A peddlar of renown,
   He delt in tin ware and sl(?)ich,
        <<<

I guess that this is almost certainly "sich" = "such".

-- Mark A. Mandel, Research Administrator
   Information Extraction from the Biomedical Literature
   University of Pennsylvania


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun  1 17:19:06 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 13:19:06 -0400
Subject: Off the wall
In-Reply-To: <20040601040432.8D0A92282A@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.131906.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET> says

        >>>
There are two different "off the hooks," so to speak. The fishing one
has to do primarily with getting out of a tight. (In BE, it's not
necessary to add "spot" or some such after "tight"). "The note from my
wife got me off the hook." The other, hip-hop one is derived from
phrases like, "The telephone has been ringing _off the hook_ all day"
because something really important is happening and you need to know
about it, so you can get the hook-up.
        <<<

"Hook-up" has nothing to do with it -- maybe you were just adding that as a
decorative fillip, but it's not clear to me. "Ringing off the hook" long
antedates hip-hop and the modern social sense of "hook-up".

"On-hook" and "off-hook" are states of the telephone circuit. Normally it's
on hook = hung up, not in use, ready to receive a call. When you pick up the
receiver it's off hook.

I know these as technical terms, but I am assuming that they derive from a
period when the part of the telephone that one picked up was literally
supported by a hook when not in use. If I recall correctly, that accurately
describes the old upright sets (before my day, but familiar from cartoons
and antique stores) in which the microphone was at the top of a vertical
stand and the earphone was a separate piece connected by a wire and
supported by a hook. To use the phone, you would pick up the stand, take the
earphone unit off the hook and put it to your ear, and hold the microphone
to your mouth. Removing the weight of the earphone from the hook would let
the hook rise, closing the circuit: what I know of colloquially as "picking
up the phone" and technically as putting it "off-hook".

Given those terms, "ringing off the hook" is easy to derive: figuratively,
the telephone is ringing so much, it's so excited, that the receiver is
jumping off the hook by itself.


-- Mark Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun  1 17:39:45 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 10:39:45 -0700
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <D300AAD4-B372-11D8-A6B6-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.103945.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

i've been struggling to understand wilson gray's responses to those of
us (most recently, jonathon green and me) who reject the acronymic
etymology for "phat".  wilson's most recent reply to me has the key, i
think.

On May 31, 2004, at 7:24 PM, Wilson Gray wrote:

(from an earlier posting of wilson's)

>>> ..."Phat" is actually a  modification of "phatt," which is
>>> initial-slang
>>> meaning "Pussy, Hips, Ass, Thighs, Tits." This term dates back to at
>>> least 1950, when its meaning and use were described to me by a
>>> cousin visiting Saint Louis, my home town, from New York City. Its
>>> original use was to describe a good-looking girl or woman, as in,
>>> e.g. "That chick is phatt!"...

here the claims are that the *original* use of "phat(t)" was with
respect to women, and that this use derived from an acronym.  pretty
much everyone is deeply suspicious of acronymic derivations for
everyday (non-technical, non-jargon) vocabulary, but the deeper problem
is that the best an ordinary speaker of some variety can do is say that
such and such an expression was in use in that variety at such and such
a time with such and such a meaning; such a speaker can't possibly have
knowledge of the history of the expression.  (though this speaker might
well have access to community stories about history -- more on this
below.)

so, what we had at this point is a report that "phat(t)" was in use in
some black communities (specifically, in new york city) ca. 1950 to
describe good-looking females.  this is data, and as good as any
recollective report is; i'm not trying to impugn it.

i do wish we had a bit *more* information, though.  the reporter,
wilson tells us, was a thirteen-year-old girl describing not her own
speech but the speech of males (presumably, somewhat older teenagers)
in the community.  this is relevant because wilson's cousin might have
been reporting metadata (information about what these guys said they
said, rather than observations about what they said), and because her
information might have been incomplete: these guys might have been
using "phat(t)" to refer to things and situations in addition to
good-looking females.  or maybe not; we just can't be sure, since a
report that expression E has use U is not a report that E has *only*
use U.

in any case, wilson's cousin couldn't actually have *known* what the
original meaning and derivation of the word were.  note that although
i'm incredibly suspicious of the derivation, i'm not saying that the
claim about original meaning is implausible.  the word could well have
extended from a 'good-looking female' sense to other spheres of
excellence; such generalizations of evaluative vocabulary are
commonplace.  the problem is that we just don't know the history of the
word's meanings in this particular community.

as a side note, i have to point out that word histories often take
different paths in different communities.  this effect is very striking
in the explorations of innovative evaluative adjectives ("w(h)ack" and
its relatives) i've been making recently.  so, though i'm looking
forward to hearing from margaret lee about way "phat" was used by her
and her friends in central virginia in the 50s and 60s, that doesn't
necessarily bear on how it was used by young black men in new york city
in this period.  i wish it did; dialectology would be *so* much easier
if changes were global, affecting entire large communities in the same
way -- but they aren't.

wilson's latest posting (replying to margaret lee), just in, brings up
another complication: we can't even be sure that the uses reported in
the 50s are continuous with the very widespread use of "phat" today.
re-inventions and resuscitations of rare usages are both attested in
the literature on historical change (for instance, in the history of
the form "themself"), so that without further evidence we don't know
whether the current usages are actually continuations of either of the
usages reported here.

> In 1950, my cousin and I were both thirteen years old. I really doubt
> that she would have been sophisticated enough at that age to have made
> up this derivation.

of course not.  she got it from someone else.

> And, given that adults are extremely unlikely to be aware of the
> slanguage used by children on the street, especially in the 'Fifties,
> I doubt that some well- or ill-meaning adult took her aside and
> explained it to her.

of course not.  but young people do talk about these things to one
another.

> I conclude, therefore, that the definition - not hypothesis - that she
> gave was a genuine one from the streets of New York City.

this is the crucial point, the thing i just didn't get until this
morning.  wilson is saying that his cousin offered Pussy Hips Ass
Thighs Tits as the *definition* of "phatt" (not merely an account of
its history).  in what follows, again the claim of definition:

> Note also that my cousin spelled and defined "phatt" and not "phat"...

since wilson is treating what his cousin said as an unmediated account
of the word's meaning, he is understandably outraged that jonathon
green and i, two white guys, should be claiming to know more about
black varieties of english than he and his cousin do.

but the cousin's report is metadata.  getting ordinary speakers to
"define" words is a frustrating business, as we all know.  it's hard to
know what to make of these explicit accounts of meaning.  definition by
exemplar is incredibly common; on the urbandictionary site, you have
people defining "ghey" in terms of exemplars (definition: "gay" --
Viktor.  example sentence: "Viktor is really ghey").  in general, these
definitions are often much more specific than the definer's actual
usage, or much more general.

and ordinary people's definitions frequently embody the etymological
fallacy: the "real meaning" of a word is its (purported) historical
origin.  i have, in fact, had people tell me that the *real meaning* of
"fuck" is 'Found Under Carnal Knowledge', and that the *real meaning*
of "news" is "North East West South", and many similar things.  these
people believed that their actual uses of these words followed in some
way from their "true meanings".  what they're reporting is some more or
less explicit theory of the word's meaning, not reflections on the way
they use the word tacitly.

ordinary people are just dreadful at giving definitions of the sort a
linguist or lexicographer is interested in.  even when they give
definitions of the right sort, what they say isn't necessarily an
accurate account of their actual usage, which has to be discovered by
examining what they say in what contexts.  metadata isn't useless; it's
an interesting phenomenon in its own right, as dInIs, for example,
would be the first to tell you.  but it isn't dependable information
about the usage of words -- about what words mean for particular
speakers, about how often they're pronounced one way or another, about
who uses them, and so on.

even words with concrete meanings are problematic for ordinary people
to define.  but words with meanings that have a significant social or
discourse component to them -- evaluative words and discourse
particles, for example -- are especially hard for people to report on
accurately (no matter how earnestly they try).

what i'm saying is that wilson's cousin was no better than most people
at defining words, so that that her report can't be taken as an
accurate description of usage in her community.  i don't claim to have
*any* knowledge about that usage.  i claim only that her report doesn't
give us nearly as much information as we'd like about that usage.

one final twist in this story.  there's a powerful effect that could
give rise to a situation in which some speakers actually do use
"phat(t)" *only* with reference to good-looking females, *regardless*
of the history of the item.  sometimes, Believing Makes It So
(equivalently, Belief Trumps Truth).

the effect is easy to see in taboo avoidance: once "cock" 'rooster' is
connected to "cock" 'penis', or american "ass" 'donkey' to "ass"
'buttocks, anus', no amount of protestation on the part of mere
linguists armed with the history of these words is going to persuade
people that they're really different words.  they're the same word
because we believe they are.

and once people develop the theory that women use the higher range of
their voice pitch much more than men do, no amount of protestation on
the part of mere phoneticians studying american english prosody is
going to prevent people from judging the use of the higher end of the
range as "feminine" (especially in men).  it counts as feminine because
we believe it does.

to get back to "phat": once the acronymic account gets about in a
community, then it can, in effect, become the truth.  whatever range of
meanings the word might have had before, people might trim their use of
the word to make it conform to this theory.  (or might not; people are
often willing to tolerate vast gulfs between their explicit theories
and their actual behavior.)

goodness knows what actually went on in various black communities over
the past 50+ years.  what we know now is essentially only that a
homophone of "fat" has had various special senses/uses in different
communities at different times.  this isn't nothing, but for a
sociolinguist it isn't much.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun  1 18:22:20 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 14:22:20 -0400
Subject: Off the wall
In-Reply-To: <200406011019.1bvcUS1NI3NZFjK0@condor>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.142220.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 1, 2004, at 1:19 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Off the wall
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson Gray <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET> says
>
>>>>
> There are two different "off the hooks," so to speak. The fishing one
> has to do primarily with getting out of a tight. (In BE, it's not
> necessary to add "spot" or some such after "tight"). "The note from my
> wife got me off the hook." The other, hip-hop one is derived from
> phrases like, "The telephone has been ringing _off the hook_ all day"
> because something really important is happening and you need to know
> about it, so you can get the hook-up.
>         <<<
>
> "Hook-up" has nothing to do with it -- maybe you were just adding that
> as a
> decorative fillip, but it's not clear to me. "Ringing off the hook"
> long
> antedates hip-hop and the modern social sense of "hook-up".
>
> "On-hook" and "off-hook" are states of the telephone circuit. Normally
> it's
> on hook = hung up, not in use, ready to receive a call. When you pick
> up the
> receiver it's off hook.
>
> I know these as technical terms, but I am assuming that they derive
> from a
> period when the part of the telephone that one picked up was literally
> supported by a hook when not in use. If I recall correctly, that
> accurately
> describes the old upright sets (before my day, but familiar from
> cartoons
> and antique stores) in which the microphone was at the top of a
> vertical
> stand and the earphone was a separate piece connected by a wire and
> supported by a hook. To use the phone, you would pick up the stand,
> take the
> earphone unit off the hook and put it to your ear, and hold the
> microphone
> to your mouth. Removing the weight of the earphone from the hook would
> let
> the hook rise, closing the circuit: what I know of colloquially as
> "picking
> up the phone" and technically as putting it "off-hook".
>
> Given those terms, "ringing off the hook" is easy to derive:
> figuratively,
> the telephone is ringing so much, it's so excited, that the receiver is
> jumping off the hook by itself.
>
>
> -- Mark Mandel
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

Indeed. In fact, being a senior citizen, I well remember using the kind
of telephone that you describe, assuming that, by "microphone." you
mean "mouthpiece." It wasn't necessary to pick up the whole telephone,
unless that was your personal style of using one. You just took the
earpiece off the hook, put it to your ear, and spoke into the
mouthpiece, while sitting or standing.
I assume that you're not familiar with the movie, "The Hook-Up," given
that this is a hip-hop movie about telephones. In fact, the movie's
protagonist uses the phrase, "I got the hook-up," as the slogan for his
business of selling cellular telephones that had "fallen off a truck."
And weren't we discussing only the fact that the derivation of  "off
the hook" in hip-hop slang is different from the derivation of the
standard English locution "(get) off the hook"? I was, in any case.

-Wilson Gray


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Jun  1 19:20:55 2004
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Allen D. Maberry)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:20:55 -0700
Subject: hybrid expression?
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.122055.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yesterday, on the evening edition of NPR's Marketplace, there was a story about the economic hardships faced by some California towns due to the huge deployment of US troops. At one point the reporter made the statement "They've got paychecks they're itchin' to burn." I've never heard this expression before and I first thought that it might be a blend of the cliches "itchin' to spend" and "burning a hole in one's pocket". Or alternatively, that in this case ("burn" might mean "spend") like the expression "blow one's paycheck on s.t." (although I've never heard "burn one's paycheck").  Has anyone else encountered this expression?

allen


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Jun  1 20:52:28 2004
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 16:52:28 -0400
Subject: She's my bro
In-Reply-To: <1085773368.40b796384da03@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.165228.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have to agree with Sam Clements -- this looks like an original to
me.  I see nothing in our files that duplicates it in any way.   I have
heard of an all-female theatrical troupe that calls itself "Five
Lesbian Brothers," but "brothers" in this context is a different word
entirely -- it's not the shortened form "bro,"  its reference is
particular rather than generic (and is intended to be surprising), and
it has a gender-bending connotation, whereas De Garmo's use of
"bro" de-genders the word and seems to imply that it's generic.

In other words, the evidence M-W has collected so far suggests
that "bro" and "brother" as applied to women are nonce-uses.

Joanne


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun  1 21:27:58 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 17:27:58 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <200406010915.1bvbVa39b3NZFjV0@sparrow>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.172758.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've only recently become familiar with John Green's work, just today,
as a matter of fact. But I have long been familiar with Arnold Zwicky
and his work, for more than a quarter-century, at least. In any case,
had I not the least idea as to who either of these scholars was, the
mere fact that they are posting to this list would be sufficient to
prevent me from assuming that I was dealing with a couple of dimbulbs.
My point is merely that it is not impossible that "phat(t)" could be
initial slang derived exactly as my cousin said. Perhaps I've totally
misunderstood them, but Messrs. Green and Zwicky appear to wish to say
that such an origin is, if not totally impossible, at least _very_
highly unlikely, because people very rarely know the origin of slang
terms. Hence, my suggested origin is empty of content. I don't agree
with that.
The supposed counter-examples are words of standard English, irrelevant
in a discussion of the slang of a sub-culture or are trivial
modifications of the originally-suggested derivation, such as might be
expected to arise over the course of a half-century, whereas the
meaning of "phat(t)" has remained the same. A further counter-argument
is that initial slang tends to arise only in social environments
dominated by the majority, i.e. white, super-culture. [I do not impute
to Prof. Zwicky in any way any kind of racist or racial perspective;
it's merely a fact about the social environments that he used as
examples.] Is Prof. Zwicky able to prove this assertion or is this just
the way he feels about or, perhaps, the only situation with which he
has intimate familiarity?
Wrt to familiarity, I'm familiar with the "joke" about the anatomy of
Asian women. However, I didn't hear it until I was 23 years old and in
the Army, serving in a unit consisting of approximately 800 white
G.I.'s and exactly two black G.I.'s. There was also a "joke" about
having to take your "anti-Slant-Eye pills," if you were white and about
to be shipped out to Japan or Korea. That is, being black, I was
sufficiently insulated by Jim Crow from white people and their
race-based "humor" that I was a grown man before I heard a "joke" that
Prof. Zwicky heard before he had reached puberty.
It would also be interesting to the origin of your "plethora of
examples." And it seems to me to a logical assumption that when a slang
term originates, there are at least two people who know where it came
from: the person who invents it and the first person that he tells it
to.
Consider this. In the Saint Louis sub-dialect of Black English, the
noun "bear" has the extended meaning, "an ugly woman or girl," Its
origin was fully known fifty years ago. In 1951 or so, there was a very
popular song called "Cupid's Boogie," featuring an "argument" between a
man and a woman. The man sings, "You ought to be ought in the forest,
fightin' a big old grizzly bear!" She answers, "But I'm a lady!" And
the man says, "They got lady bears out there." Almost immediately, it
began to be said of an unattractive girl or woman, e.g. "She must be
one of those lady bears they was talkin' about." From examples such as
that, "bear" came to have the slang meaning, "ugly woman." I was in
Saint Louis last year. "Bear" can still mean "ugly woman," but only
"old heads" over sixty-five have any idea how that came about. "Young
peppers" give you guesses such as the fact that a bear is a big, scary
animal. You then ask them why it should refer only to women and not to
men and they give you a blank stare. In another decade or so, all of us
old heads will dead and "bear = ugly woman" will simply be a slang
usage of unknown origin peculiar to blacks living in Saint Louis.
Since women don't invent slang or even know how to use it properly a
lot of the time (e.g., my wife had the impression that "fuckin' A!"
meant "what the hell?!" and not "damned right!"), I'm sure that my
cousin must have (over) heard the word and its putative definition from
some guy.

-Wilson Gray



On Jun 1, 2004, at 12:15 PM, Baker, John wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>         This is extremely interesting information.  It shows that
> phat(t) was in use over 50 years ago, and that the acronymic etymology
> is quite old.  What it does not tell us is whether phat(t) actually
> originated as an acronym (though of course the age of the acronymic
> etymology is evidence in that direction).  After all, we know that
> pumpernickel does not derive from "C'est bon pour Nichol," even though
> that explanation accompanies the first use of "pumpernickel" in
> English.  Unless your cousin or one of her acquaintances actually
> coined "phatt," then her account is not going to be definitive.
>
>         Jonathon Green and Arnold Zwicky may not be black (I'm
> guessing that they're not), but they're two of the most knowledgeable
> posters on ADS-L.  In any case, I think there is a plethora of
> examples to show that ordinary users of terms typically don't
> understand the terms' derivations.
>
> John Baker
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Wilson Gray
> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 10:25 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
>
>
> In 1950, my cousin and I were both thirteen years old. I really doubt
> that she would have been sophisticated enough at that age to have made
> up this derivation. And, given that adults are extremely unlikely to be
> aware of the slanguage used by children on the street, especially in
> the 'Fifties, I doubt that some well- or ill-meaning adult took her
> aside and explained it to her. I conclude, therefore, that the
> definition - not hypothesis - that she gave was a genuine one from the
> streets of New York City. Note also that my cousin spelled and defined
> "phatt" and not "phat" and that this occurred more than five decades
> ago. A whole lot of water has gone under that temporal bridge. It's
> also the case that, until the advent of hip-hop slang, no form of this
> word was used anywhere that I've ever lived - Texas, Missouri,
> California, Massachuseetts, Pennsylvania - by anyone of any race or
> social class or age group. Even my cousin didn't use the word, except
> for that one time, when she was clearly trying to gross out her hick
> cousin from the sticks by using language reserved for the use of males.
> Hence, it was a hapax legomenon for me prior to coming of hip-hop. The
> rest of your argument re acronymic derivation, given that "fuck" is not
> slang but standard English, is irrevelant. Besides, Arnold, you're
> white and I'll bet that  you've never had any occasion whatsoever to
> live among or come to know intimately black people. I, on the other
> hand, am black and, naturally, have always lived among black people,
> except for the time that I spent at M.I.T., back in the day. An
> argument based on what is typical with respect to whites won't map onto
> what is typical among blacks.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Jun  1 22:39:40 2004
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 15:39:40 -0700
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.153940.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Finally, "fuck" is a standard English word with cognates in Dutch and
>German and not slang.
>Wilson Gray

There is a young man at our school who takes great pride in his last name --Ficken.  Even tho he doesn't take German, he knows what it means.

Fritz Juengling


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Jun  1 22:51:33 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 18:51:33 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.185133.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I would have thought that we've seen enough etymythologies on this list, without any special need to seek them out, but, since you ask, I'll cite some.  Perhaps it's not quite a plethora, but here are a few examples of mostly inaccurate etymologies from Snopes.com.  These include both standard and slang terms.

http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/acronyms.htm
http://www.snopes.com/language/offense/offense.htm
http://www.snopes.com/language/stories/stories.htm

        A key seems to be that the subject term is perceived as nonstandard, though the perception is often mistaken.  No one is surprised that a core English word like "father," say, is derived from Old English "faeder," meaning "father."  Folk etymologies emerge for slang words like "cop" (not really from "constable on patrol"), pseudo-slang like "fuck," and standard words that have somehow come under a cloud, like "picnic."

        The coiner of a term does, of course, know its derivation.  At some point, the term's users lose the connection with the origin.  That may happen relatively quickly, or, as with your "bear" example, the derivation may linger because a large number of people connect the term to its origin.  Regardless of the amount of time taken, though, if the term lasts then at some point most of its users will not know its origin.  Nevertheless, they may believe that they do know the origin.

        I can't speak for Jonathan or Arnold (who are, in any case, eminently capable of speaking for themselves), but I don't think that your suggested origin is empty of content.  I think it's evidence, interesting in its own right, and there is even some possibility that it may be accurate.  (It's certainly more plausible than some of the suggested origins of other terms that have been seriously put forth on this list.)  But the mere fact that someone told your cousin that this was the origin of "phatt" is far from conclusive.

John Baker


From OneCachet at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  2 00:41:08 2004
From: OneCachet at AOL.COM (Your Name)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 20:41:08 EDT
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.204108.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/1/2004 3:51:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes:
pseudo-slang like "fuck,"
Is pseudo-slang itself slang?

Ike Royer


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun  2 01:12:11 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 21:12:11 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <200406011532.1bvhNU2jq3NZFjX0@robin>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.211211.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

He's in good company. The Harvard College Library holds titles by
Johann Wilhelm Fück, Erhard Fucke, Arthur Fuckel, Friedrich Fuckel,
G.F. Alexander Fuckel, and Leopold Fuckel.

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 1, 2004, at 6:39 PM, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       FRITZ JUENGLING <juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> Finally, "fuck" is a standard English word with cognates in Dutch and
>> German and not slang.
>> Wilson Gray
>
> There is a young man at our school who takes great pride in his last
> name --Ficken.  Even tho he doesn't take German, he knows what it
> means.
>
> Fritz Juengling
>


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun  2 02:46:13 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 22:46:13 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <200406011551.1bvi6G4sc3NZFmR0@bunting>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.224613.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you for bringing these sites to my attention. The kinds of folk
etymologies that you supply are completely foreign to my experience.
I've read about them, of course, but I've never heard anything of this
type proposed by any black person, with the sole exceptions of
"phat(t)" and "mot," meaning "member of the tribe." (I've read
somewhere or other that "mot" is also or originally Jewish slang.
Interesting.) The closest that I can come to anything like these are
locutions like "HNIC" and "HNOD,"which are always spelled out and never
pronounced. Their meanings are, respectively, "head nigger in charge"
and "head nigger on duty."  And there's also BYB/BYOB, meaning "bring
your (own) bottle," and KYPIYP "keep your peter in your pants" and some
others. These are likewise always spelled out and never pronounced.
Since I first heard these when I was in grade school in the 'Forties
and have never in my life met any black person who was unfamiliar with
them, I'm probably safe in assuming they are universally known among
black Americans. Well, among men, at least. Women, for some reason,
never seem to be a source of slang and screw it up when they try to use
it. E.g., a girl I knew back in the day would always hypercorrect "lay
dead" = "relax/kick back at home by oneself, hang around the house
doing nothing in particular," to "play dead."
This is just a stab in the dark, but my guess is that, given that all
of us blacks know that our dialect is itself non-standard, we have no
motivation to perceive non-standardness as something that needs to be
dealt with.
FWIW, now that I think about it, the hypercorrection of "lay dead" to
"play dead" could be understood as an instance of folk etymology.

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 1, 2004, at 6:51 PM, Baker, John wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>         I would have thought that we've seen enough etymythologies on
> this list, without any special need to seek them out, but, since you
> ask, I'll cite some.  Perhaps it's not quite a plethora, but here are
> a few examples of mostly inaccurate etymologies from Snopes.com.
> These include both standard and slang terms.
>
> http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/acronyms.htm
> http://www.snopes.com/language/offense/offense.htm
> http://www.snopes.com/language/stories/stories.htm
>
>         A key seems to be that the subject term is perceived as
> nonstandard, though the perception is often mistaken.  No one is
> surprised that a core English word like "father," say, is derived from
> Old English "faeder," meaning "father."  Folk etymologies emerge for
> slang words like "cop" (not really from "constable on patrol"),
> pseudo-slang like "fuck," and standard words that have somehow come
> under a cloud, like "picnic."
>
>         The coiner of a term does, of course, know its derivation.  At
> some point, the term's users lose the connection with the origin.
> That may happen relatively quickly, or, as with your "bear" example,
> the derivation may linger because a large number of people connect the
> term to its origin.  Regardless of the amount of time taken, though,
> if the term lasts then at some point most of its users will not know
> its origin.  Nevertheless, they may believe that they do know the
> origin.
>
>         I can't speak for Jonathan or Arnold (who are, in any case,
> eminently capable of speaking for themselves), but I don't think that
> your suggested origin is empty of content.  I think it's evidence,
> interesting in its own right, and there is even some possibility that
> it may be accurate.  (It's certainly more plausible than some of the
> suggested origins of other terms that have been seriously put forth on
> this list.)  But the mere fact that someone told your cousin that this
> was the origin of "phatt" is far from conclusive.
>
> John Baker
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  2 03:09:52 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 23:09:52 EDT
Subject: "Trains run on time" (1923)
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.230952.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TRAINS RUN ON TIME--10,800 Google hits, 7,790 Google Groups hits

Through all this runs the difficult issue of lustration--how and whether ti
bar from power personnel of an ousted evil regime.  On the one hand, you don't
want to reward tyrants with power; on the other, you'd like to see the trains
run on time.
--Michael Barone in the NEW YORK SUN, 1 June 2004, pg. 9, col. 3.


   This is a classic line about dictatorship.  You want Amtrak to be on time?
 Thing again!   It's not worth it!
   Snopes.com (below) gives the names of people who used this expression, but
they probably didn't coin it.


(GOOGLE)
Urban Legends Reference Pages: History (Loco Motive)
Loco Motive. Click here. Claim: Italian dictator Benito Mussolini made
the trains run on time. Status: False. Origins: Every political ...
www.snopes.com/history/govern/trains.htm - 10k - Cached - Similar pages
The myth of Mussolini's punctual trains lives on, albeit with a different
slant: rather than serving as a fictitious symbol of the benefits of fascism, it
is now offered as a sardonic example that something good can result even from
the worst of circumstances. As Montagu and Darling wrote:
>
> Mussolini may have done many brutal and tyrannical things; he may have
> destroyed human freedom in Italy; he may have murdered and tortured citizens whose
> only crime was to oppose Mussolini; but 'one had to admit' one thing about
> the Dictator: he 'made the trains run on time.'
>


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Make the trains run on time?
... Bollocks. Ever since, the phrase "Mussolini made the trains run on time"
meant that sort of draconian attempt to force your will on people. ...
alt.folklore.urban - Oct 24, 1997 by mitcho - View Thread (9 articles)

Giuliani makes the trains run on time (Fascism in New York)
Giuliani Makes The Trains Run On Time by Robert Lederman Flushed with victory
after
crushing the economic aspirations of 30,000 transit workers New York City ...

alt.music.rage-machine - Dec 17, 1999 by EXVandals - View Thread (1 article)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    Punctuality Marking Train Service in Italy
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 10, 1923. p. 8 (1
page):
   Rome, July 20.--The spirit of discipline which the Mussolini government
brought in with it is no more concretely illustrated than on the railroads and
in the telegraph service of Italy.  Italian trains are now run on time--one can
even set one's watch by them--and the time of transmission on internal and
foreign telegrams has been reduced to one-fourth of what it was before the
advent of Italy's young fictator to power.

    SPREADING FASCISM
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 9, 1925. p.
A4 (1 page) :
   The situation before the Fascist government came into power almost
amounted to a negation of government; there was, ine might say, no government and no
law. (...) Trains did not run on time or did not run at all;...

    ITALY FOUND PROSPERING; Bevani Tells City Club Mussolini Has Wrought Many
Benefits, But Freedom Gone
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 22, 1927. p.
A2 (1 page):
   There are no beggars in all Italy, he found, the railroads, under military
control, tun on time and the trains are clean, municipal government has been
entirely abolished and there are no elections, mayors or councils, prices for
all of the necessities of life are regulated by the dictator to prevent
profiteering, there is no crime wave, everywhere there is great demonstration of
force and compulsion, the papers are lacking in tales of robberies, hold-ups and
similar crimes, tipping is discouraged and there is practically no night life.

    What Women are Doing
MYRA NYE. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 10,
1928. p. A6 (1 page) :
   "Because Italy has been galvanized into action a new Italy is arising,"
said (Paul--ed.) Harvey.  "And because business is good, trains run on time,
hotels and food are better, and there are no unemployed. the traveler, who gets
only a superficial report, says that conditions in Italy are good."

     AMERICANS IN ITALY.
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jun 24, 1928. p. 10 (1
page) :
   Italians liberals remark sarcastically upon the complaisancy not to say
admiring approval shown by American travelers in Italy toward the Fascist
regime.  All they say, protest the liberals bitterly, is that the trains run on
time.
   We must admit the American traaveler's approval of the regime of Fascism
tends to be rather selfish and superficial.  It does please him that trains run
on schedule and are clean and comfortable, and he dismisses rather lightly
the Italian liberals' objections, though they are founded on principles an
American is supposed to accept as "self-evident."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Decatur Daily Review - 7/13/1923
...telegraph of ITALY. Italian TRAINS now RUN ON TIME ONe can even set ONes
wntch.....be dispONdent. ITALIAN TRAINS ON GOOD TIME [By tha Associated Prrss]
Home..
Decatur, Illinois Friday, July 13, 1923  714 k

Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune - 7/24/1923
...of ITALY. Italian TRAINS are now RUN ON TIME ONe can even set ONes
watch.....Mrs. JaspersON will 'visit here for a TIME AND Miss GRUNdeen, who has
been..
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin Tuesday, July 24, 1923  823 k

Morning Call - 9/14/1929
...has made Italian railroad TRAINS RUN ON TIME. But for these
material.....thought of by all except ITALY, AND ITALY has not been permitted to think..
Laurel, Mississippi Saturday, September 14, 1929  458 k

Lima News - 12/5/1930
...almost legendary Fascist TRAINS which RUN ON TIME. Rumor has it that
the.....There is an ever-growing rumor in ITALY that Costanzo Ciano. Count, of is..
Lima, Ohio Friday, December 05, 1930  761 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  2 06:50:55 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 02:50:55 EDT
Subject: Make no small plans (1921); Rich is Better (1937); Bronx Cheer &
 Razzberries
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.025055.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MAKE NO SMALL PLANS

   I took another look (using the newly digitized Chicago Tribune) at "make
no small plans" or "make no little plans," allegedly said by Chicago's
legendary architect Daniel Burnham.  There's nothing early that I can see.  I also
looked for "think big."


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Our Greatest Man, in Two Stately Volumes
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 6, 1921. p. F1 (2
pages)
Second page (Pg. 10):
   "Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood. . . . Aim
high in hope and work, remembering that a noble, logical fiagram once recorded
will never die. . . . Let your watchword be order and your beacon beauty."
(II., 147.)
(_The Wit and Wisdom of Daniel Burnham_, from the new biography by Charles
Moore--ed.)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Iowa City Press Citizen - 10/4/1921
...on my typewriter. Hei it is: "MAKE NO SMALL PLANS they have NO magic to
stu.....explo-jlaie to catch-thc tricksiers. SMALL TOWNS AND FARMS "What Cheer..
Iowa City, Iowa Tuesday, October 04, 1921  767 k

Wichita Daily Times - 7/27/1922
...at my machine. Here it Is: "MAKE NO SMALL PLANS they have NO magic to
stir.....evidence of growth should enlarge and MAKE more plain and possible of..
Wichita Falls, Texas Thursday, July 27, 1922  542 k

Soda Springs Chieftain - 8/7/1930
...of the world, uttered these "MAKE NO LITTLE PLANS they have NO to ktlr
men's.....themselves will NOt be realised. MAKE big PLANS. Remember' that our
sons..
Soda Springs, Idaho Thursday, August 07, 1930  813 k

Denton Journal - 9/7/1935
...its planned bcautification: "MAKE NO LITTLE PLANS; they have NO magic to
stir.....is the duty of the patrol." MAKE NO LITTLE PLANS There are many towns
and..
Denton, Maryland Saturday, September 07, 1935  838 k

Lima News - 3/3/1938
...this inspirng sentiment: "MAKE NO LITTLE PLANS; they hare NO magic to
stir.....and your beacon beauty." The LITTLE PLANS are important, but MAKE them..
Lima, Ohio Thursday, March 03, 1938  829 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
RICH IS BETTER

RICH IS BETTER--2,110 Google hits, 1,170 Google Groups hits

   "I've been poor and I've been rich.  Rich is better."
   This line is frequently attributed to both Joe E. Lewis and Sophie Tucker.
 I thought the Chicago Tribune would have something.  It didn't, but this is
pretty good.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
The Post's New Yorker
By LEONARD LYONS. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 12,
1937. p. 13 (1 page) :
   At the Tavern Mrs. George S. Kaufman urges a noted theatrical figure to
accept the movie offers being tendered him.  "Listen, and take my advice," she
urges.  "Don't overlook the money part of it.  I've been poor and I've been
rich.  Rich is better!"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BRONX CHEER

   Another "Bronx cheer," through Chicago.  See ADS-L archives for this and
the following term.
   I worked only 8:30 a.m.-7:30 p.m. today in a room with no air in the
Bronx...Thanks for not pointing out the typing mistakes in the last post.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
HEARKEN TO BECKETT
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Feb 10, 1923. p. 13 (1
page) :
   _"Bronx Cheer" for Joe._
   New York, Feb. 9.--(Special.)--Reports from London that Joe beckett had
made the announcement that he had signed articles to meet Jack Dempsey in New
York next July or August for the world's title evoked little more than guffaws
in local fight circles today.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
RAZZBERRIES

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Display Ad 1 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 1, 1917. p. 2 (1 page)
:
(Victor Records--ed.)
The Darktown Strutters' Ball--Fox Trot--Six Brown Bros.
Razzberries--One-Step--Van Eps Trio...75c


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Jun  2 06:53:49 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 23:53:49 -0700
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F23B61F1@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.235349.0700.>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Baker, John
> Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 9:15 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
>
>
>         This is extremely interesting information.  It shows that
> phat(t) was in use over 50 years ago, and that the acronymic
> etymology is quite old.  What it does not tell us is whether
> phat(t) actually originated as an acronym (though of course the
> age of the acronymic etymology is evidence in that direction).
> After all, we know that pumpernickel does not derive from "C'est
> bon pour Nichol," even though that explanation accompanies the
> first use of "pumpernickel" in English.  Unless your cousin or
> one of her acquaintances actually coined "phatt," then her
> account is not going to be definitive.

The age of the acronymic explanation is irrelevant to the etymology. All it
shows is that this particular origin story is 50 years old. It tells us
nothing about the ultimate truth of the story. Such stories can survive for
extraordinary periods of time even if demonstrably proven to be untrue
(e.g., "Windy City"). Factoids and urban legends have lives independent of
whether or not they are true.

I would say the evidence is strongly against the acronymic origin of
"phat(t)." First, acronyming is simply not a productive pattern of
non-technical word formation. People just don't create ordinary words in
this fashion. Second, the "ph" for "f" spelling is a productive slang form.
Another example of this is "phreak." Third, "fat" has a centuries old
history of meaning lush or desirable.

Also for the record, the OED has a citation of "pumpernickel" dating back to
the mid-18th century, long before Napoleon or the "c'est bon pour Nichol"
story.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  2 11:07:06 2004
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 04:07:06 -0700
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <OCEFKEEBCCDKPHIMICJGCEJFCJAA.dave@wilton.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.040706.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You must also consider the fact that a significant aspect of BE is its use as a "disguise" language, going back to slavery when the enslaved Africans created means of communicating among themselves without the slave master knowing what they were saying, often talking about him in his presence. Some of these were words with double, multiple or opposite meanings. I think  black acronyms fit this description, especially "phat", no doubt used covertly by males without females understanding the meaning (at least initially).
I can't remember specifically how I learned about 'phat' in the late 50's and early '60's in Virginia,  but females were very familar with its use and meaning, knowing that males used it to refer to a female who was "stacked."

Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET> wrote:
"phat(t)." First, acronyming is simply not a productive pattern of
non-technical word formation. People just don't create ordinary words in
this fashion.

Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Professor of English & Linguistics
  and University Editor
Department of English
Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home)
margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu   or   mlee303 at yahoo.com

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends.  Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Jun  2 12:12:30 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 08:12:30 -0400
Subject: off the wall
In-Reply-To: <20040602040411.F3CBA2286E@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.081230.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray writes:
        >>>

I assume that you're not familiar with the movie, "The Hook-Up," given
that this is a hip-hop movie about telephones. In fact, the movie's
protagonist uses the phrase, "I got the hook-up," as the slogan for his
business of selling cellular telephones that had "fallen off a truck."

        <<<

Indeed, I am not. Perhaps if you had mentioned it I would have gotten your
point.

        >>>

And weren't we discussing only the fact that the derivation of  "off
the hook" in hip-hop slang is different from the derivation of the
standard English locution "(get) off the hook"? I was, in any case.

        <<<

On this list, as on others I subscribe to, conversation flows in many
directions. It isn't always easy to see, or to guess, which of the possible
or apparent directions of a particular post is the one the writer intended,
and that's assuming that s/he meant only one, which is not a safe
assumption.


-- Mark A. Mandel, Research Administrator
   Information Extraction from the Biomedical Literature
   University of Pennsylvania


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Wed Jun  2 12:27:44 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 08:27:44 -0400
Subject: hybrid expression?
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.082744.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    "Allen D. Maberry" <maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

: Yesterday, on the evening edition of NPR's Marketplace, there was a
: story about the economic hardships faced by some California towns due
: to the huge deployment of US troops. At one point the reporter made
: the statement "They've got paychecks they're itchin' to burn." I've
: never heard this expression before and I first thought that it might
: be a blend of the cliches "itchin' to spend" and "burning a hole in
: one's pocket". Or alternatively, that in this case ("burn" might mean
: "spend") like the expression "blow one's paycheck on s.t." (although
: I've never heard "burn one's paycheck").  Has anyone else encountered
: this expression?

I don't know if this is a hybrid of two phrases as much as a combination of
two idiomatic single *words*, actually: "itchin'" meaning "desiring" and
"burn" meaning "waste, spend profligately".

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Jun  2 13:23:40 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 06:23:40 -0700
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <20040602110706.75697.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.062340.0700.>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Margaret Lee
> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 4:07 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
>
>
> You must also consider the fact that a significant aspect of BE
> is its use as a "disguise" language, going back to slavery when
> the enslaved Africans created means of communicating among
> themselves without the slave master knowing what they were
> saying, often talking about him in his presence. Some of these
> were words with double, multiple or opposite meanings. I think
> black acronyms fit this description, especially "phat", no doubt
> used covertly by males without females understanding the meaning
> (at least initially).
> I can't remember specifically how I learned about 'phat' in the
> late 50's and early '60's in Virginia,  but females were very
> familar with its use and meaning, knowing that males used it to
> refer to a female who was "stacked."

I don't believe that anyone is arguing about the meaning of the word; I
certainly am not. That "phat" is used to describe a sexually attractive
woman is beyond dispute.

The question is whether or not it formed as an acronym or whether the
acronym explanation arose later. Do you have other examples of BE words
formed from acronyms? Is acronyming a productive source of non-technical
terms in BE?

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Jun  2 13:26:05 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 09:26:05 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.092605.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        And once again, Barry just can't get any respect!  As he posted on 5/1/02, a fuller version of the 1756 OED cite is:  "The people of the country call it _Pompernickel_ (OED STOPS HERE!!--ed.), which is only a corruption of a _French_ name given it by a gentleman of that nation, who passed through this country.  It is reported, that when this coarse bread was brought to table, hye looked at it and said, _Qu'il etoit bon pour_ Nickel, _That it was good for_ Nickel, which was the name of his horse.  Those, however, who are used to it, are strong and robust..."

        I disagree with the claim that the age of an explanation is irrelevant to its actual etymology.  I believe that there is good reason to think that the oldest exlanations are the most significant and the most likely to be accurate, though of course there are many examples, of which "pumpernickel" is one, where even an extremely early explanation is simply wrong.  The likelihood of an explanation's survival is an entirely different matter, one that seemingly has no relationship to the explanation's accuracy, unless it is a negative one.

        I don't really want to be in the position of defending an acronymic origin of "phat(t)."  However, what do you make of "snafu," which is known to have an acronymic origin?  (Can anyone think of any other nontechnical terms - not initialisms like "TGIF" -  that have acronymic origins?)

John Baker


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Jun  2 13:39:41 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 09:39:41 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.093941.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        "Pseudo-slang" was just a made-up term I used to refer to words like "fuck" that are frequently denigrated as slang but are not in fact slang.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Your Name
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 8:41 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]


In a message dated 6/1/2004 3:51:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes:
pseudo-slang like "fuck,"
Is pseudo-slang itself slang?

Ike Royer


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Wed Jun  2 14:36:48 2004
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 15:36:48 +0100
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <E1BVVy3-0001Fa-Cp@julia.zen.co.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.153648.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>         "Pseudo-slang" was just a made-up term I used to refer to words
> like "fuck" that are frequently denigrated as slang but are not in fact
> slang.
>
> John Baker
>

If I might throw in another ten penn'orth/cents: I don't think, with
respect to John Baker,  that _fuck_, and other taboo terms that started
off life as mainstream (if not exactly 'standard') English but by c.1700
were considered off-limits, are so much 'pseudo-slang' which to me, at
least, implies a degree of deliberate contrivance, but slang 'faut de
mieux'. Excluded from polite use (although the cites never stop coming)
and mainstream lexicography they remained in the wider lexis, but found
themselves 'rescued', at least as far as dictionaries are concerned, by
the slang lexicographers. (Indeed I'm not sure that _fuck_ appears in any
mainstream dict. other than Florio's Italian-English _World of Words_
(1598), where it translates 'fottere'). Not that all of them found such
inclusion that comfortable, thus Francis Grose's notation in The Classical
Dict. of the Vulgar Tongue (1785):  'F--k, to copulate', not to mention
'C--t, a nasty word for a nasty thing'. And my predecessor Eric Partridge,
at least in the earlier editions of a book that first appeared in 1937,
also had recourse to hyphens. (Though his predecessors, Farmer & Henley
[1890-1904], spelt everything out).

I would suggest that slang lexicgraphers still see _fuck_ and its taboo
kin as 'theirs.' And as genuine slang. Although such terms are beginning
to appear in mainstream lexica. ('Motherfucker', for instance, receives
extensive coverage in the online edition of the OED - labelled as 'coarse
slang'). Certainly I could not imagine excluding such words from any
dictionary of mine, and Jonathan Lighter certainly has them in the HDAS.
And the combinations thereof - see Jesse's magisterial 'F-Word' - are
surely slang and nothing else.

Phat: More anecdotal evidence. My elder son - 26, white, big hiphop fan
since back in the day - has just appeared in a tracksuit jacket emblazoned
with the word Phat (it is made by the clothing firm Phat Farm, which sell,
for lack of a better description, 'hip-hop fashions.') Offered the idea
that the word is an acronym he offered me a dismssive snort. He goes for
'fat', mis-spelt. As I say, strictly anecdotal. Not to mention British.

Jonathon Green


From Tpconroy at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  2 14:37:52 2004
From: Tpconroy at AOL.COM (Tom Conroy)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:37:52 EDT
Subject: eponymous album
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.103752.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm a writer working on a story for "Tracks" magazine about the commonly used
record-review word "eponymous." It is used, in a usage objected to by most
music copy editors, as a means of avoiding the repetition of the band's name
when referring to an album whose title is the band's name (e.g., Iron Maiden's
"Iron Maiden," which most rock critics would style as Iron Maiden's eponymous
album).

I was wondering if anyone has access to a data base (or could direct me to a
data base) where one could search for early citations of "eponymous album" and
"eponymous LP" (as well as the variations "self-titled album" and
"self-titled LP").

>From my own experience as a copy editor, I know the usage goes back at least
to 1983.

I found a discussion of "self-titled" in the ADS archive, but I was able to
access only two records.

I can also be reached by phone at 973-313-1475 if anyone would prefer
discussing the topic by phone.

Thank you for your attention.

Tom Conroy


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Jun  2 14:52:13 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:52:13 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <opr8y1jma5i28g2m@green>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.105213.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 03:36:48PM +0100, Jonathon Green wrote:
> >
> >        "Pseudo-slang" was just a made-up term I used to refer to words
> >like "fuck" that are frequently denigrated as slang but are not in fact
> >slang.
> >
> >John Baker

Let me interject something that Mr. Green was too modest to
mention in his post, namely that his name is "Jonathon", no
"Jonathan" or "John" as some recent messages have had it.

> If I might throw in another ten penn'orth/cents: I don't think, with
> respect to John Baker,  that _fuck_, and other taboo terms that started
> off life as mainstream (if not exactly 'standard') English but by c.1700
> were considered off-limits, are so much 'pseudo-slang' which to me, at
> least, implies a degree of deliberate contrivance, but slang 'faut de
> mieux'. Excluded from polite use (although the cites never stop coming)
> and mainstream lexicography they remained in the wider lexis, but found
> themselves 'rescued', at least as far as dictionaries are concerned, by
> the slang lexicographers. (Indeed I'm not sure that _fuck_ appears in any
> mainstream dict. other than Florio's Italian-English _World of Words_
> (1598), where it translates 'fottere').

Do you mean used in definition text? It's hard to imagine "fuck"
being used in definition text for any non-recent dictionary, and
not in very many recent ones either.

But in terms of _fuck_ being itself defined, there were indeed
a number of dictionaries that included it (Bailey's _Universal
Etymological English Dictionary_ and _Dictionarium
Britannicum_ among the more prominent ones); Allan Walker Read
discusses this in some detail in his 1934 _American Speech_
article. The latest until the modern era was the 1795 second
edition of John Ash's _New and Complete Dictionary of the
English Language_.

I also agree that "fuck" is slang, and not pseudo-slang; we've
discussed this before.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Wed Jun  2 15:19:06 2004
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:19:06 +0100
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <E1BVX6F-0004kE-Qk@hausdorff.zen.co.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.161906.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No, I didn't mean definition text. I was thinking headwords, and was too
lazy - and too busy dismebowelling the slang citations from a 1953 book
thrillingly subtitled 'Teenagers trapped in waterfront vice!' - to start
checking properly. Jesse is of course right. Although having now checked
the 1737 edn. of Bailey's UEED, I can't actually find 'fuck' therein,
neither in the main text, nor in the Canting addendum, which is generally
seen as coming from the New Canting Dict. of 1725. It is, however, in the
1755 edition, defined coyly as 'foeminam subagitare'. This is the main
text - the addendum had by now been dropped. And while Ash certainly used
it, so too did the Revs. Samuel Johnson and  John Elliott, in their
Selected Pronouncing and Accented Dictionary, published in the US in 1800;
or at least they included _foutra_ 'a low, vulgar word', whiuch inclusion
brought no little criticism, which they attempted to defer by blaming Ash
(in whose work they admitted they had found it - and then had blithely
copied it into their own).

Jonathon Green


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Wed Jun  2 15:15:54 2004
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:15:54 +0100
Subject: Folk etymologies
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.161554.0100.>

A subscriber recently queried my dismissal of the much-repeated story
that the phrase "cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey"
came from the brass frames on Royal Navy sailing ships on which the
pyramids of iron shot were placed. He said, in effect, that I must be
wrong, because he recently saw such a frame in a museum in Hong Kong.

As an article about the expression is included in my book on popular
etymology that is to be published by Penguin in the UK on 1 July, I
was intrigued and a little concerned. So I contacted the museum. A
helpful curator has today e-mailed me a photograph of the display.
Beside a cannon is a pile of shot in what indeed looks like a brass
frame. However, she confirms that it's actually made of stained wood,
and was constructed by the museum's designer three years ago to keep
the shot in place on the exhibit.

That was a near-run thing. Now I must sort out this chap who swears
that he, his father and his grandfather have all actually used "POSH"
as an insider's codeword to persuade pursers to give them cabins on
the cooler sides of ships ...

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Jun  2 15:15:31 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 11:15:31 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.111531.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I think that the last time around, the majority view, which I found convincing, was that words such as "fuck" were not in fact slang.  Consider the AHD4 definition of "slang":

        <<NOUN: 1. A kind of language occurring chiefly in casual and playful speech, made up typically of short-lived coinages and figures of speech that are deliberately used in place of standard terms for added raciness, humor, irreverence, or other effect. 2. Language peculiar to a group; argot or jargon: thieves' slang.>>

        "Fuck" doesn't really fit either of these definitions, even though AHD4 and other dictionaries do label it as slang.

        I do agree with Jonathon that he should consider it within his purview.  It is part of "the vulgar tongue," and readers expect to find such terms in a dictionary of slang.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Jesse Sheidlower
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 10:52 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]


I also agree that "fuck" is slang, and not pseudo-slang; we've
discussed this before.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Jun  2 16:05:18 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 12:05:18 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F23B61F6@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.120518.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 11:15:31AM -0400, Baker, John wrote:

>         I think that the last time around, the majority
> view, which I found convincing, was that words such as
> "fuck" were not in fact slang.  Consider the AHD4 definition
> of "slang":
>
>         <<NOUN: 1. A kind of language occurring chiefly in
> casual and playful speech, made up typically of short-lived
> coinages and figures of speech that are deliberately used in
> place of standard terms for added raciness, humor,
> irreverence, or other effect. 2. Language peculiar to a
> group; argot or jargon: thieves' slang.>>
>
>         "Fuck" doesn't really fit either of these
> definitions, even though AHD4 and other dictionaries do
> label it as slang.

It doesn't fit? I do think that "fuck" occurs chiefly in
casual speech and is deliberately used for added raciness or
irreverence or other effect. The purportedly "short-lived"
nature of slang is something I've always thought is wrong, but
since AHD modifies it with "typically" we can ignore it here.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun  2 17:56:59 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:56:59 -0700
Subject: shero
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.105659.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

today's Fresh Air had a long interview with Donna Brazill (Al Gore's
campaign manager in 2000).  interesting sociolinguistically, since
she's a public and powerful woman who's preserved lots of features of
informal southern AAVE: piles of -in', medial glottal stop in "sudden"
as well as "didn't", the occasional unmarked 3rd sg present, etc.
stunning contrast to, say, Condi Rice.

along the way, she talked about the "heroes and sheroes" of the civil
rights movement.  "shero" isn't in our archives (though some of you
might already have collected it).  there are a fair number of shero
sites on the web -- feminist, african american, often both.  a small
sample:

Sistapower - Shero - Highlighting an African American Shero
(http://www.sistapower.com/shero.htm)

My Shero: Mature Lesbians Making a Difference
(http://www.classicdykes.com/sheroes.htm)

Who is YOUR Shero?
(http://www.girlsinitiativenetwork.org/shero.htm)

Black Women Today - Shero of the Week
(http://www.tbwt.com/blackwomentoday/shero.asp)

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Jun  2 18:00:13 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 14:00:13 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.140013.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        But it's not used in place of a standard term.

        MW11 has a different definition, which does not include the "in place of a standard term" concept but apparently would not include "fuck" either:  "an informal nonstandard vocabulary composed typically of coinages, arbitrarily changed words, and extravagant, forced, or facetious figures of speech."

        To round out the popular shorter dictionaries (I'm at the office and don't have the OED or Webster's Third handy), here's Webster's New World College Dictionary 4th:  "highly informal speech that is outside conventional or standard usage and consists both of coined words and phrases and of new or extended meanings attached to established terms:  slang develops from the attempt to find fresh and vigorous, colorful, pungent, or humorous expression, and generally either passes into disuse or comes to have a more formal status."  Again, that wouldn't include "fuck."

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Jesse Sheidlower
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 12:05 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]


On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 11:15:31AM -0400, Baker, John wrote:

>         I think that the last time around, the majority
> view, which I found convincing, was that words such as
> "fuck" were not in fact slang.  Consider the AHD4 definition
> of "slang":
>
>         <<NOUN: 1. A kind of language occurring chiefly in
> casual and playful speech, made up typically of short-lived
> coinages and figures of speech that are deliberately used in
> place of standard terms for added raciness, humor,
> irreverence, or other effect. 2. Language peculiar to a
> group; argot or jargon: thieves' slang.>>
>
>         "Fuck" doesn't really fit either of these
> definitions, even though AHD4 and other dictionaries do
> label it as slang.

It doesn't fit? I do think that "fuck" occurs chiefly in
casual speech and is deliberately used for added raciness or
irreverence or other effect. The purportedly "short-lived"
nature of slang is something I've always thought is wrong, but
since AHD modifies it with "typically" we can ignore it here.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun  2 20:00:15 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:00:15 -0700
Subject: british vs. north american englishes
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.130015.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

a colleague asks if there is "a good overview work comparing British
and North American Englishes".  assuming that this colleague is
interested in the standard varieties, and in all aspects
(pronunciation, grammar, orthography, lexicon), and wants something
short, i've recommended chs. 2-4 of trudgill & hannah (2002), the 4th
ed. of International English.

any other suggestions?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun  2 20:11:27 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:11:27 -0400
Subject: off the wall
In-Reply-To: <200406020512.1bvuBGMc3NZFkl0@cockatoo>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.161127.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Had I been able to predict the kind of response that my message would
elicit from you, I would have made a greater effort to clarify my
remarks. Unfortunately, I could not. Therefore, I ask only that you
accept my sincerest apologies. I regret the error.
On the other hand, I found your remarks re telephony quite informative.

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 2, 2004, at 8:12 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: off the wall
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson Gray writes:
>>>>
>
> I assume that you're not familiar with the movie, "The Hook-Up," given
> that this is a hip-hop movie about telephones. In fact, the movie's
> protagonist uses the phrase, "I got the hook-up," as the slogan for his
> business of selling cellular telephones that had "fallen off a truck."
>
>         <<<
>
> Indeed, I am not. Perhaps if you had mentioned it I would have gotten
> your
> point.
>
>>>>
>
> And weren't we discussing only the fact that the derivation of  "off
> the hook" in hip-hop slang is different from the derivation of the
> standard English locution "(get) off the hook"? I was, in any case.
>
>         <<<
>
> On this list, as on others I subscribe to, conversation flows in many
> directions. It isn't always easy to see, or to guess, which of the
> possible
> or apparent directions of a particular post is the one the writer
> intended,
> and that's assuming that s/he meant only one, which is not a safe
> assumption.
>
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel, Research Administrator
>    Information Extraction from the Biomedical Literature
>    University of Pennsylvania
>


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun  2 20:12:00 2004
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:12:00 -0400
Subject: british vs. north american englishes
In-Reply-To: <76C2FA86-B4CF-11D8-A2D8-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.161200.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>any other suggestions?

There are a few pp. of interest in Gunnel Tottie's _Intro to American
English_ (Blackwell).

Bethany


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Wed Jun  2 20:12:56 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:12:56 -0400
Subject: british vs. north american englishes
In-Reply-To: <200406022000.ATB99838@mirapointmr2.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.161256.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 04:00 PM 6/2/2004, you wrote:
>a colleague asks if there is "a good overview work comparing British
>and North American Englishes".  assuming that this colleague is
>interested in the standard varieties, and in all aspects
>(pronunciation, grammar, orthography, lexicon), and wants something
>short, i've recommended chs. 2-4 of trudgill & hannah (2002), the 4th
>ed. of International English.
>
>any other suggestions?

Despite the title there is a good deal of information in the following book
contrasting the two languages/dialects:

American English
by Zoltan Kovecses
Paperback: 250 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.75 x 8.75 x 6.00
Publisher: Broadview Press; 1st edition (September 26, 2000)
ISBN: 1551112299

Geoff


From orinkh at CARR.ORG  Wed Jun  2 20:27:54 2004
From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:27:54 -0400
Subject: british vs. north american englishes
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.162754.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>a colleague asks if there is "a good overview work comparing British
>and North American Englishes".  assuming that this colleague is
>interested in the standard varieties, and in all aspects
>(pronunciation, grammar, orthography, lexicon), and wants something
>short, i've recommended chs. 2-4 of trudgill & hannah (2002), the 4th
>ed. of International English.
>
>any other suggestions?
>
If I might cast all modesty aside, may I recommend to your colleague my own
book on the subject?

Mighty Fine Words and Smashing Expressions
Hardcover: 320 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.09 x 9.62 x 6.28
Publisher: Oxford University Press (New York); (December 2002)
ISBN: 0195157044

I should warn that it does not treat pronunciation. Orthography is treated in
the first chapter, Grammar in the second, and the other chapters (9 plus
appendices) deal thematically with the lexicon. The book mainly contrasts
British and American English; some other dialects are treated cursorily in an
appendix.

Orin Hargraves


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Jun  2 21:02:46 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:02:46 -0400
Subject: American vs. European Date formats (Modified by Grant Barrett)
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.170246.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Speaking of British vs. American, this query from a visitor to the ADS
web site needs answering. Anyone? Please respond to the original
querent and the list.

......

Hi,

Sorry for the interruption but I have question which I can't really
find the answer for in any definitive way. Most of the world uses the
date forum month/day/year but the United States uses day/month/year.
The only reason I can think why this is so, is down to dialect. People
in the US will say I was born on March 12, 1984 (for example) whereas I
would say it "I was born on the 12th of March, 1984".

Can you point me to any historical references or ideas as to why we
differ in our speech in this way.

Thank you

Alan O'Flaherty
oflaherty at o2.ie


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Jun  2 21:36:22 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:36:22 -0400
Subject: shero
In-Reply-To: <3EDC3D32-B4BE-11D8-A2D8-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.173622.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is a great word!

At 10:56 AM 6/2/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>today's Fresh Air had a long interview with Donna Brazill (Al Gore's
>campaign manager in 2000).  interesting sociolinguistically, since
>she's a public and powerful woman who's preserved lots of features of
>informal southern AAVE: piles of -in', medial glottal stop in "sudden"
>as well as "didn't", the occasional unmarked 3rd sg present, etc.
>stunning contrast to, say, Condi Rice.
>
>along the way, she talked about the "heroes and sheroes" of the civil
>rights movement.  "shero" isn't in our archives (though some of you
>might already have collected it).  there are a fair number of shero
>sites on the web -- feminist, african american, often both.  a small
>sample:
>
>Sistapower - Shero - Highlighting an African American Shero
>(http://www.sistapower.com/shero.htm)
>
>My Shero: Mature Lesbians Making a Difference
>(http://www.classicdykes.com/sheroes.htm)
>
>Who is YOUR Shero?
>(http://www.girlsinitiativenetwork.org/shero.htm)
>
>Black Women Today - Shero of the Week
>(http://www.tbwt.com/blackwomentoday/shero.asp)
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Jun  2 21:49:52 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:49:52 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <0321D521-B43F-11D8-88C8-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.174952.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At least she didn't hypercorrect to "lie dead," right?!

At 10:46 PM 6/1/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Thank you for bringing these sites to my attention. The kinds of folk
>etymologies that you supply are completely foreign to my experience.
>I've read about them, of course, but I've never heard anything of this
>type proposed by any black person, with the sole exceptions of
>"phat(t)" and "mot," meaning "member of the tribe." (I've read
>somewhere or other that "mot" is also or originally Jewish slang.
>Interesting.) The closest that I can come to anything like these are
>locutions like "HNIC" and "HNOD,"which are always spelled out and never
>pronounced. Their meanings are, respectively, "head nigger in charge"
>and "head nigger on duty."  And there's also BYB/BYOB, meaning "bring
>your (own) bottle," and KYPIYP "keep your peter in your pants" and some
>others. These are likewise always spelled out and never pronounced.
>Since I first heard these when I was in grade school in the 'Forties
>and have never in my life met any black person who was unfamiliar with
>them, I'm probably safe in assuming they are universally known among
>black Americans. Well, among men, at least. Women, for some reason,
>never seem to be a source of slang and screw it up when they try to use
>it. E.g., a girl I knew back in the day would always hypercorrect "lay
>dead" = "relax/kick back at home by oneself, hang around the house
>doing nothing in particular," to "play dead."
>This is just a stab in the dark, but my guess is that, given that all
>of us blacks know that our dialect is itself non-standard, we have no
>motivation to perceive non-standardness as something that needs to be
>dealt with.
>FWIW, now that I think about it, the hypercorrection of "lay dead" to
>"play dead" could be understood as an instance of folk etymology.
>
>-Wilson Gray


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun  2 22:16:33 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 18:16:33 -0400
Subject: shero in re glottal stop
In-Reply-To: <200406021056.1bvzYV2gS3NZFl40@penguin>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.181633.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was born in Marshall, Texas (FWIW, George Foreman of Meineke-Muffler
fame, Y.A. Tittle, and Bill Moyers are also Marshallites) and grew up
in Saint Louis. In that day, (1937-1957) the glottal stop was not used
by BE speakers in either location. (I have no idea whether this feature
now currently occurs natively outside of the East Coast. I sincerely
hope not.) However, while in the Army in 1961, I became friends with a
linguistically-naive fellow BE speaker from North Carolina. I used to
amuse myself with him by asking, "David, why do you always use a
glottal stop?" He would invariably answer, to my great delight, "Man, I
don't use no glo?le stop!" [Well, maybe you had to have been there.]

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 2, 2004, at 1:56 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
> Subject:      shero
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> today's Fresh Air had a long interview with Donna Brazill (Al Gore's
> campaign manager in 2000).  interesting sociolinguistically, since
> she's a public and powerful woman who's preserved lots of features of
> informal southern AAVE: piles of -in', medial glottal stop in "sudden"
> as well as "didn't", the occasional unmarked 3rd sg present, etc.
> stunning contrast to, say, Condi Rice.
>
> along the way, she talked about the "heroes and sheroes" of the civil
> rights movement.  "shero" isn't in our archives (though some of you
> might already have collected it).  there are a fair number of shero
> sites on the web -- feminist, african american, often both.  a small
> sample:
>
> Sistapower - Shero - Highlighting an African American Shero
> (http://www.sistapower.com/shero.htm)
>
> My Shero: Mature Lesbians Making a Difference
> (http://www.classicdykes.com/sheroes.htm)
>
> Who is YOUR Shero?
> (http://www.girlsinitiativenetwork.org/shero.htm)
>
> Black Women Today - Shero of the Week
> (http://www.tbwt.com/blackwomentoday/shero.asp)
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Jun  2 22:26:00 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 18:26:00 -0400
Subject: New ADS server and primary email; new site TK
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.182600.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

All,

Please note that the ADS web site will be transitioning to a new server
over the next few days. It should be painless and invisible, but if you
have a glitch, please try again later. The web site address will remain
the same, http://www.americandialect.org/ . The old email archives
(pre-1999) will be offline while I get them accommodated to the new
server (something akin to buttering a cat's paws) and install better
searching tools. This should happen this weekend. The new archives,
post-1999, are still active and working, as they are graciously hosted
by LinguistList.

Great thanks go to Bill Kretzschmar and the gang at the Linguistics
Atlas Project at UGA for hosting the ADS site for the last few years.
It was a good deed. Thanks, too, to Eric Rochester for all his help
with technical issues.

Also, effective immediately, there is a new primary email address
associated with the American Dialect Society web site. It is now
webmaster at americandialect.org. The old address,
gbarrett at americandialect.org, is no longer active. I was tired of the
oodles of spam messages it sent me.

Finally, a new version of the ADS web site is in the works, and will
appear soonish. The committee has been hard at work.

Thanks,

Grant Barrett
ADS Webmaster
webmaster at americandialect.org


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Jun  2 22:32:19 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 15:32:19 -0700
Subject: New ADS server and primary email; new site TK
In-Reply-To: <D328C410-B4E3-11D8-A695-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.153219.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And I say, kudos to Grant for managing the web site for quite a number of
years, and now for buttering cats' paws and dealing with oodles o'
spam--all so that the rest of us can effortlessly enjoy this list.

Peter Mc.

--On Wednesday, June 2, 2004 6:26 PM -0400 Grant Barrett
<gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG> wrote:

> All,
>
> Please note that the ADS web site will be transitioning to a new server
> over the next few days. It should be painless and invisible, but if you
> have a glitch, please try again later. The web site address will remain
> the same, http://www.americandialect.org/ . The old email archives
> (pre-1999) will be offline while I get them accommodated to the new
> server (something akin to buttering a cat's paws) and install better
> searching tools. This should happen this weekend. The new archives,
> post-1999, are still active and working, as they are graciously hosted
> by LinguistList.
>
> Great thanks go to Bill Kretzschmar and the gang at the Linguistics
> Atlas Project at UGA for hosting the ADS site for the last few years.
> It was a good deed. Thanks, too, to Eric Rochester for all his help
> with technical issues.
>
> Also, effective immediately, there is a new primary email address
> associated with the American Dialect Society web site. It is now
> webmaster at americandialect.org. The old address,
> gbarrett at americandialect.org, is no longer active. I was tired of the
> oodles of spam messages it sent me.
>
> Finally, a new version of the ADS web site is in the works, and will
> appear soonish. The committee has been hard at work.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Grant Barrett
> ADS Webmaster
> webmaster at americandialect.org



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun  2 22:42:36 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 18:42:36 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <200406021452.1bvDES50E3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.184236.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Good one! That might actually have happened, given that she was the
daughter of a teacher who was prescriptive to the extent that she tried
to teach us to pronounce "peanut," i.e. "pea nut," as "peenit,"
supposedly more elegant. Not to mention that the family belonged to the
Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. Gnome sane?

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 2, 2004, at 5:49 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At least she didn't hypercorrect to "lie dead," right?!
>
> At 10:46 PM 6/1/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>> Thank you for bringing these sites to my attention. The kinds of folk
>> etymologies that you supply are completely foreign to my experience.
>> I've read about them, of course, but I've never heard anything of this
>> type proposed by any black person, with the sole exceptions of
>> "phat(t)" and "mot," meaning "member of the tribe." (I've read
>> somewhere or other that "mot" is also or originally Jewish slang.
>> Interesting.) The closest that I can come to anything like these are
>> locutions like "HNIC" and "HNOD,"which are always spelled out and
>> never
>> pronounced. Their meanings are, respectively, "head nigger in charge"
>> and "head nigger on duty."  And there's also BYB/BYOB, meaning "bring
>> your (own) bottle," and KYPIYP "keep your peter in your pants" and
>> some
>> others. These are likewise always spelled out and never pronounced.
>> Since I first heard these when I was in grade school in the 'Forties
>> and have never in my life met any black person who was unfamiliar with
>> them, I'm probably safe in assuming they are universally known among
>> black Americans. Well, among men, at least. Women, for some reason,
>> never seem to be a source of slang and screw it up when they try to
>> use
>> it. E.g., a girl I knew back in the day would always hypercorrect "lay
>> dead" = "relax/kick back at home by oneself, hang around the house
>> doing nothing in particular," to "play dead."
>> This is just a stab in the dark, but my guess is that, given that all
>> of us blacks know that our dialect is itself non-standard, we have no
>> motivation to perceive non-standardness as something that needs to be
>> dealt with.
>> FWIW, now that I think about it, the hypercorrection of "lay dead" to
>> "play dead" could be understood as an instance of folk etymology.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Jun  2 23:29:32 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:29:32 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.192932.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

With reference to a side-track opened in the recent discussion of "phatt".

I have long had a copy of Wessely's Latin-English Dictionary, first published in the late 19th century, a pocket-sized affair undoubtedly for the use of students.  It defined "cunnus" as "cunt" -- a fact that made a sensation in my dorm room, in 1959.  I well remember one of my roomies saying in wonder "I've never seen that word in print!"  But that was the Eisenhower administration, an innocent era.  No doubt the word caused even greater astonishment during the McKinley administration.

Some years ago I made a gesture toward researching this publication, but did not see any way to determine the actual date of printing of my copy; and, as a cheaply made student's dictionary, it did not seem that many libraries owned it.  I was curious to know whether this definition was in all printings of the book, and if not, when it was added or dropped.  No doubt copies could be got cheaply through Bookfinder, et al, and checked for the word, perhaps dated by signatures?

I can't at the moment put my hand on my copy, but don't believe -- fervently hope -- that it is not lost.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Jun  2 23:32:30 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:32:30 -0400
Subject: New ADS server and primary email; new site TK
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.193230.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> And I say, kudos to Grant for managing the web site for quite a number of years, and now for buttering cats' paws and dealing with oodles o'spam--all so that the rest of us can effortlessly enjoy this list.
>
> Peter Mc.
>

Hear!  Hear!

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2004 6:32 pm
Subject: Re: New ADS server and primary email; new site TK
>
> *****************************************************************
> Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Jun  2 23:36:17 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:36:17 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <169dd7716a118d.16a118d169dd77@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.193617.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 07:29:32PM -0400, George Thompson wrote:
> With reference to a side-track opened in the recent discussion of "phatt".
>
>  I have long had a copy of Wessely's Latin-English
> Dictionary, first published in the late 19th century, a
> pocket-sized affair undoubtedly for the use of students.  It
> defined "cunnus" as "cunt"

I find this astonishing, absolutely astonishing.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From dave at WILTON.NET  Thu Jun  3 00:07:26 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:07:26 -0700
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F23B61F4@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.170726.0700.>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Baker, John
> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 6:26 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]

>         I don't really want to be in the position of defending an
> acronymic origin of "phat(t)."  However, what do you make of
> "snafu," which is known to have an acronymic origin?  (Can anyone
> think of any other nontechnical terms - not initialisms like
> "TGIF" -  that have acronymic origins?)
>
> John Baker

Thanks for the complete citation of "pumpernickel." I missed Barry's earlier
email. I hope that when the OED3 gets around to P, they will include the
full quote in the citation. It's important given the popularity of the
Nichol story.

As to "snafu," there are two possible, and non mutually exclusive,
explanations. One is that it is simply an exception. It would be equally
astonishing if there were *no* non-technical words with acronymic origins.
But the point is that they are vanishingly rare. Given this, skepticism must
be applied to any non-technical acronymic word origin. An acronymic origin
for "phat(t)" is possible, but highly unlikely.

The other explanation is that "snafu," and its less well-known variants like
"tarfu," arose in the military--an environment given to coining technical
acronyms. In fact, the number of "snafu" variants that have come out of WWII
point to the conclusion that the coinages were a joke about the army's
penchant for acronyms.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Jun  3 00:58:56 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:58:56 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <OCEFKEEBCCDKPHIMICJGIEKBCJAA.dave@wilton.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.205856.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>(Can anyone
> > think of any other nontechnical terms - not initialisms like
> > "TGIF" -  that have acronymic origins?)

I guess it depends on what's labeled "technical". There's "awol", there's
"scuba", there's "moped" if you loosen up the definition of "acronym", some
more.

But there aren't too many in conventional use really.

I doubt that "snafu" is an 'honest' acronym etymologically (which would
require that there was a previously existing expression "situation normal
..."): likely the word was invented to imitate "snag", "snarl", etc., and
then assigned an expansion as an imaginary origin: but of course I could be
wrong again.

-- Doug Wilson


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Thu Jun  3 01:32:51 2004
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 18:32:51 -0700
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <200406022329.i52NTdNm277458@yipvmb.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.183251.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

George A. Thompson wrote in part:

>I have long had a copy of Wessely's Latin-English Dictionary, first
>published in the late 19th century, a pocket-sized affair
>undoubtedly for the use of students....
>Some years ago I made a gesture toward researching this publication,
>but did not see any way to determine the actual date of printing of
>my copy ...

Harvard's copy is unhelpfully cataloged with the date "[18-]".

Handy dictionary of the Latin and English languages. With an appendix
of Latin, geographical, historical, and mythological proper names.
Published :     Philadelphia, D. McKay, [18-].
Notes : On cover: Wessely.
Authors :       Wessely, I. E. (Ignaz Emanuel), 1841-1900.

It's not in the LOC, the University of California library system,
COPAC, nor in a few other catalogs I checked. Wessely compiled quite
a few other language dictionaries that are much more commonly held; I
wonder whether the scarcity of the Latin volume is related to its
naughty bit(s)?

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun  3 03:26:29 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:26:29 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <200406021832.1bvH6l5113NZFjV0@sparrow>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.232629.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 2, 2004, at 9:32 PM, John McChesney-Young wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       John McChesney-Young <panis at PACBELL.NET>
> Subject:      Re: dirty words in dictionaries
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> George A. Thompson wrote in part:
>
>> I have long had a copy of Wessely's Latin-English Dictionary, first
>> published in the late 19th century, a pocket-sized affair
>> undoubtedly for the use of students....
>> Some years ago I made a gesture toward researching this publication,
>> but did not see any way to determine the actual date of printing of
>> my copy ...
>
> Harvard's copy is unhelpfully cataloged with the date "[18-]".
>
> Handy dictionary of the Latin and English languages. With an appendix
> of Latin, geographical, historical, and mythological proper names.
> Published :     Philadelphia, D. McKay, [18-].
> Notes : On cover: Wessely.
> Authors :       Wessely, I. E. (Ignaz Emanuel), 1841-1900.
>
> It's not in the LOC, the University of California library system,
> COPAC, nor in a few other catalogs I checked. Wessely compiled quite
> a few other language dictionaries that are much more commonly held; I
> wonder whether the scarcity of the Latin volume is related to its
> naughty bit(s)?
>
> John
> --
>
>
> *** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
> California, U.S.A.  ***

As a long-time staff member of the Harvard College Library (the
official title of what is usually referred to and thought of as the
Harvard _University_ Library), I'd like to rise to its defense. When an
imprint is given in the form, [nn-] - [18-], in this case - it does not
mean that a library is being in any way "unhelpful." Rather, it means
that, after a search of the world's libraries, booksellers, and
publishers' catalogs, the best information available to the library is
only that a given book was published in a given century. Libraries
_always try_ to provide scholars with the information that they need.
Occasionally, they fail to do so, but only because that information is
simply not to be had.
Sometimes, you eat the bear; sometimes, the bear eats you.

-Wilson Gray
>


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun  3 03:40:55 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:40:55 -0700
Subject: American vs. European Date formats (Modified by Grant Barrett)
In-Reply-To: <000001c448bc$d5c7f740$0302a8c0@Alan>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.204055.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 2, 2004, at 2:02 PM, Grant Barrett wrote:

> Speaking of British vs. American, this query from a visitor to the ADS
> web site needs answering. Anyone? Please respond to the original
> querent and the list.
>
> ......
>
> Sorry for the interruption but I have question which I can't really
> find the answer for in any definitive way. Most of the world uses the
> date forum month/day/year but the United States uses day/month/year.
> The only reason I can think why this is so, is down to dialect. People
> in the US will say I was born on March 12, 1984 (for example) whereas
> I would say it "I was born on the 12th of March, 1984".

this is backwards (probably a simple typo); american usage is M/D/Y,
most of europe is D/M/Y, in other words in ascending order of units.  i
don't know the history, though both of these orders correspond to
possible orders in spoken english.  (and i leave aside the question of
how the numbers are separated orthographically: 9/11/01 or 9.11.01 or 9
11 01.)

in china (and, i think, much of asia) the notation is in descending
order of units: Y/M/D.  this order corresponds to the order
conventionally used in addresses (as a gross generalization: usually
descending in the east, ascending in the west).

but, like i said, i don't know the history.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Thu Jun  3 03:47:21 2004
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:47:21 -0700
Subject: Library Catalog Information; was, Re: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <200406030326.i533QZH2003854@ylpvm06.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.204721.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had written:

>>  Harvard's copy is unhelpfully cataloged with the date "[18-]".

and Wilson Gray quite reasonably responded:

>When an
>imprint is given in the form, [nn-] - [18-], in this case - it does not
>mean that a library is being in any way "unhelpful."

I apologize for my unfortunate choice of adjective, which I'd
intended to have the sense of "unhelpful in the matter of the
question at hand." I had not *wanted* to suggest that the Harvard
catalogers themselves were being deliberately perverse or, well,
unhelpful, but rather that the information they provided to the best
of their ability didn't clear up the question of when in the century
the book in question was published.

However, I had some qualms about my choice of term and I applaud Mr.
Gray's spirited defense and appreciate the opportunity to make
clearer what I'd meant.

>Sometimes, you eat the bear; sometimes, the bear eats you.

I will give the next bear I meet the opportunity to do the latter, in penance.

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Jun  3 04:08:44 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 00:08:44 -0400
Subject: New ADS server and primary email; new site TK
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1086190339@[10.218.203.245]>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.000844.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry, but I can't take credit for managing the email list. It is
managed separately from the web site by Jesse Sheidlower and Terry
Irons, who, I concur, do a great job keeping the list trouble- and
spam-free.

Grant

On Jun 2, 2004, at 18:32, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> And I say, kudos to Grant for managing the web site for quite a number
> of
> years, and now for buttering cats' paws and dealing with oodles o'
> spam--all so that the rest of us can effortlessly enjoy this list.


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun  3 04:15:46 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 00:15:46 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <200406021759.1bvGzA4cR3NZFjX0@robin>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.001546.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 2, 2004, at 8:58 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> (Can anyone
>>> think of any other nontechnical terms - not initialisms like
>>> "TGIF" -  that have acronymic origins?)
>
> I guess it depends on what's labeled "technical". There's "awol",
> there's
> "scuba", there's "moped" if you loosen up the definition of "acronym",
> some
> more.
>
> But there aren't too many in conventional use really.
>
> I doubt that "snafu" is an 'honest' acronym etymologically (which would
> require that there was a previously existing expression "situation
> normal
> ..."): likely the word was invented to imitate "snag", "snarl", etc.,
> and
> then assigned an expansion as an imaginary origin: but of course I
> could be
> wrong again.
>
> -- Doug Wilson

FWIW, when I was in the Army, stationed at Andrews Barracks in what was
then West Berlin in the early 'Sixties, we enlisted men formed a
pseudo-fraternity called WGAF, pronounced "wegaf." The letters stood
for "We Give A Fuck," with the negative connotation. But those in
authority were told that this stood for "We Guard America's Freedom."
Hence, when a sergeant said, e.g. "I want five warm bodies for latrine
duty," we would chorus, "Wegaf, sergeant!", making it appear that we
were so gung-ho (often hypercorrected to "gun-ho") that we were eager
to do a job that "took the meat."

-Wilson Gray


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  3 04:25:10 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 00:25:10 EDT
Subject: "Sometimes you eat the bear..." (1904); "Tools of Ignorance"
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.002510.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SOMETIMES YOU EAT THE BEAR, AND SOMETIMES THE BEAR EATS YOU
   
(ADS-L)
Sometimes, you eat the bear; sometimes, the bear eats you.
-Wilson Gray
        
YOU EAT THE BEAR--1,530 Google hits, 4,870 Google Groups hits
BEAR EATS YOU--693 Google hits, 2,340 Google Groups hits
    
   Or, as Carole King used to sing. "sometimes you win, sometimes you lose."
   Where does this come from?  These searches aren't easy.  You can replace 
"eat" with "hunt" and "get."  It goes back at least 100 years.
    I don't know about Fred Shapiro's bear collection.
  
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Some Heartbreaks Are Relined
By JOHN S. RADOSTA Special to The New York Times. New York Times 
(1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 21, 1973. p. 93 (1 page) :
   DAYTONE BEACH, Fla., Feb. 28--"Some days you eat the bear," Bobby Allison 
was saying, "and some days the bear eats you. "
      
Hunting: Some Days You Eat the Bear, Some Days --
BY ANGUS PHILLIPS. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: 
Dec 7, 1979. p. W45 (1 page)    
      
       
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Indiana Democrat - 12/14/1904   
...SOMETIMES you bunt THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR hunts you and oace 
in.....him rope and turned off sideways. THE BEAR went to THE end of THE forty 
foot..
Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, December 14, 1904  828 k   
       
New Oxford Item - 1/13/1905     
...SOMETIMES you hunt THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR hunts and once in 
a.....At one end of THE cabin a brown BEAR paced ceaselessly to and fro with..
New Oxford, Pennsylvania Friday, January 13, 1905  619 k    
     
Walla Walla Union Bulletin - 5/31/1976  
...later put it, "SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you and SOMETIMES you eat THE
.....and he would have come out-loaded for BEAR. It would have been a heck of a..
Walla Walla, Washington Monday, May 31, 1976  651 k     
       
Lincoln Star - 5/31/1976    
...Indy INDIANAPOLIS (AP) "SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you and SOMETIMES you eat 
THE.....That's just THE way things work out SOMETIMES. "I feel sorry for A. 
J., but..
Lincoln, Nebraska Monday, May 31, 1976  599 k       
     
Frederick Post - 5/14/1984  
...YOU eat the BEAR, and sometimes the BEAR EATS YOU." Storm Davis, 
3-0.....Knights finished no lower than fifth. "YOU've got to have the numbers in 
order..
Frederick, Maryland Monday, May 14, 1984  766 k     
         
Mountain Democrat - 7/28/1989   
...SOMETIMES you eat THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you. THE BEAR
.....see THE shots people take on TV, and SOMETIMES it's tough to get up from..
Placerville, California Friday, July 28, 1989  516 k    
     
Chronicle Telegram - 12/12/1994     
...year, SOMETIMES you eat THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you. Today, 
THE.....THE Oilers. After taking THE brunt of THE criticism for THE loss 
against THE..
Elyria, Ohio Monday, December 12, 1994  663 k       
         
Mountain Democrat - 9/12/1997   
...HILLS SOME DAYS you eat THE BEAR SOME DAYS THE BEAR eats you. Monday THE 
Oak.....THE truth. It is true that THEre are SOME really fast runners out THEre 
who..
Placerville, California Friday, September 12, 1997  526 k   
  
Wellsboro Gazette - 5/26/1999   
...SOMETIMES you get THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR gets Mansfield 
coach.....one hit." THE only hit of THE game for THE Tigers came in THE bottom of THE
..
Wellsboro, Pennsylvania Wednesday, May 26, 1999  509 k      
     
Gettysburg Times - 2/3/2003     
...win. "SOMETIMES you eat THE BEAR and SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats said 
Hefner.....cut THE lead to 59-56 with left. Dana BEAR hit a runner in THE lane and THE
..

Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Monday, February 03, 2003  711 k       
      
    
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: David Clasky (dclasky at mail.mia.hellsouth.net)
Subject: "...eat the bear..." 
This is the only article in this thread     
View: Original Format   
Newsgroups: alt.quotations
Date: 1997/06/05 
    
In my signature file the quote "Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the 
bear eats you" is attributed to William Faulkner.  Many people have told me 
that the quote is from someone else, and they have given theories ranging from 
Joan Armatrading to Star Trek!  I've also heard it attributed to Stephen 
Stills.  I originally heard it from my father, who heard it from a drill sergeant 
in the army in 1956.  Thedrill sergeant never attributed it to anyone.  Does 
anyone out there know who said this?  Thanks.

DC-- 
********************************************************"
Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eatsyou." - William 
Faulkner
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TOOLS OF IGNORANCE
  
   I was going through Grant Barrett's wonderful site (a food word posted 
today is one that I'd previously posted here on ADS-L).  I like the term "tools 
of ignorance," but I can't beat the 1936 Newspaperarchive hit.
  
  
http://www.doubletongued.org
tools of ignorance n. a baseball catcher’s mask, shin guards, and chest 
padding. 
1936 Arcadia Tribune (Calif.) (May 2) “Breadmen to Face Locals” p. 1: Leroy 
Zimmerman, star local high school graduate, will perform on the mound for the 
Corpe squad with Max Purcell donning the tools of ignorance to handle his 
slants. 2003 Vince Staten Why Is The Foul Pole Fair? (Apr. 1) p. 266: Bresnahan’s 
shin guards were the final pieces of the “tools of ignorance,” that great 
descriptive phrase for the catcher’s equipment. There are conflicting stories 
about who came up with that wonderful monker: Some sources credit Herold “Muddy” 
Ruel, a Senators catcher who caught for Walter Johnson and later became a 
lawyer. The more likely—and earlier—story, from the “Diamond Jargon” column in 
the August 1939 issue of Baseball Magazine accepts Yankee catcher Bill Dickey 
as the true author. Dickey supposedly coined the term while donning his gear 
and brooding over why anyone would want to be a catcher in July heat. I like 
the Dickey story because it was published sixteen years before the Ruel claim. 
2004 [White] toolsOfIgnorance (Monrovia, Calif.) (May 14) “Howdy”: The term “
tools of ignorance” is my 2nd favorite baseball colloquialism. 

  
(WWW.PAPEROFRECORD.COM)
   8 August 1940, THE  SPORTING NEWS, pg. 2, col. 1:
  So, on his own suggestion, James Emory Foxx, the finest all-round player in 
baseball, donned the "tools of ignorance," as players refer to the chest 
protector, mask and big mitt, on July 31, and became first-string catcher of the 
Red Sox.
  
   6 April 1944, THE SPORTING NEWS, pg. 3, col. 1:
   "Players call the catcher's armor the 'tools of ignorance,'" Ferrell 
continued.  "Outfielders contend that no one in their senses would clutter 
themselves up with a mask, a heavy chest protector and weigh down their legs with shin 
guards.  All of this when the mercury is trying to climb out of the top of 
the tube, and those outfielders are on vacation, waiting for something to 
happen."

  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
THE SPORTS X-RAY
BOB RAY. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 27, 
1937. p. A11 (1 page) :
   Ball players call a catcher's paraphernalia "the tools of ignorance."  
Supposition is that a guy must be ignoranct ever to tackle such a tough job as 
catching.


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun  3 04:56:38 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 00:56:38 -0400
Subject: "Sometimes you eat the bear..." (1904); "Tools of Ignorance"
In-Reply-To: <200406022130.1bvJSd7rg3NZFji2@eagle>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.005638.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, I picked up the "bear" version from a buddy, Ivan Sag of the
Stanford CSLI. He may have some knowledge of its origin.

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 3, 2004, at 12:25 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      "Sometimes you eat the bear..." (1904); "Tools of
> Ignorance"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> SOMETIMES YOU EAT THE BEAR, AND SOMETIMES THE BEAR EATS YOU
>   =20
> (ADS-L)
> Sometimes, you eat the bear; sometimes, the bear eats you.
> -Wilson Gray
>        =20
> YOU EAT THE BEAR--1,530 Google hits, 4,870 Google Groups hits
> BEAR EATS YOU--693 Google hits, 2,340 Google Groups hits
>    =20
>    Or, as Carole King used to sing. "sometimes you win, sometimes you
> lose."
>    Where does this come from?  These searches aren't easy.  You can
> replace=20
> "eat" with "hunt" and "get."  It goes back at least 100 years.
>     I don't know about Fred Shapiro's bear collection.
>  =20
>  =20
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
> Some Heartbreaks Are Relined
> By JOHN S. RADOSTA Special to The New York Times. New York Times=20
> (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 21, 1973. p. 93 (1 page) :
>    DAYTONE BEACH, Fla., Feb. 28--"Some days you eat the bear," Bobby
> Allison=
> =20
> was saying, "and some days the bear eats you. "
>      =20
> Hunting: Some Days You Eat the Bear, Some Days --
> BY ANGUS PHILLIPS. The Washington Post (1974-Current file).
> Washington, D.C.=
> :=20
> Dec 7, 1979. p. W45 (1 page)   =20
>      =20
>       =20
> (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
> Indiana Democrat - 12/14/1904  =20
> ...SOMETIMES you bunt THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR hunts you and
> oace=20
> in.....him rope and turned off sideways. THE BEAR went to THE end of
> THE for=
> ty=20
> foot..
> Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, December 14, 1904  828 k  =20
>       =20
> New Oxford Item - 1/13/1905    =20
> ...SOMETIMES you hunt THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR hunts and once
> in=20
> a.....At one end of THE cabin a brown BEAR paced ceaselessly to and
> fro with=
> ..
> New Oxford, Pennsylvania Friday, January 13, 1905  619 k   =20
>     =20
> Walla Walla Union Bulletin - 5/31/1976 =20
> ...later put it, "SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you and SOMETIMES you eat THE
> .....and he would have come out-loaded for BEAR. It would have been a
> heck o=
> f a..
> Walla Walla, Washington Monday, May 31, 1976  651 k    =20
>       =20
> Lincoln Star - 5/31/1976   =20
> ...Indy INDIANAPOLIS (AP) "SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you and SOMETIMES
> you eat=
> =20
> THE.....That's just THE way things work out SOMETIMES. "I feel sorry
> for A.=20
> J., but..
> Lincoln, Nebraska Monday, May 31, 1976  599 k      =20
>     =20
> Frederick Post - 5/14/1984 =20
> ...YOU eat the BEAR, and sometimes the BEAR EATS YOU." Storm Davis,=20
> 3-0.....Knights finished no lower than fifth. "YOU've got to have the
> number=
> s in=20
> order..
> Frederick, Maryland Monday, May 14, 1984  766 k    =20
>         =20
> Mountain Democrat - 7/28/1989  =20
> ...SOMETIMES you eat THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you. THE
> BEAR
> .....see THE shots people take on TV, and SOMETIMES it's tough to get
> up fro=
> m..
> Placerville, California Friday, July 28, 1989  516 k   =20
>     =20
> Chronicle Telegram - 12/12/1994    =20
> ...year, SOMETIMES you eat THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you.
> Today,=
> =20
> THE.....THE Oilers. After taking THE brunt of THE criticism for THE
> loss=20
> against THE..
> Elyria, Ohio Monday, December 12, 1994  663 k      =20
>         =20
> Mountain Democrat - 9/12/1997  =20
> ...HILLS SOME DAYS you eat THE BEAR SOME DAYS THE BEAR eats you.
> Monday THE=20
> Oak.....THE truth. It is true that THEre are SOME really fast runners
> out TH=
> Ere=20
> who..
> Placerville, California Friday, September 12, 1997  526 k  =20
>  =20
> Wellsboro Gazette - 5/26/1999  =20
> ...SOMETIMES you get THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR gets Mansfield=20
> coach.....one hit." THE only hit of THE game for THE Tigers came in
> THE bott=
> om of THE
> ..
> Wellsboro, Pennsylvania Wednesday, May 26, 1999  509 k     =20
>     =20
> Gettysburg Times - 2/3/2003    =20
> ...win. "SOMETIMES you eat THE BEAR and SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats said=20
> Hefner.....cut THE lead to 59-56 with left. Dana BEAR hit a runner in
> THE la=
> ne and THE
> ..
>
> Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Monday, February 03, 2003  711 k      =20
>      =20
>    =20
> (GOOGLE GROUPS)
> From: David Clasky (dclasky at mail.mia.hellsouth.net)
> Subject: "...eat the bear..."=20
> This is the only article in this thread    =20
> View: Original Format  =20
> Newsgroups: alt.quotations
> Date: 1997/06/05=20
>    =20
> In my signature file the quote "Sometimes you eat the bear, and
> sometimes th=
> e=20
> bear eats you" is attributed to William Faulkner.  Many people have
> told me=20
> that the quote is from someone else, and they have given theories
> ranging fr=
> om=20
> Joan Armatrading to Star Trek!  I've also heard it attributed to
> Stephen=20
> Stills.  I originally heard it from my father, who heard it from a
> drill ser=
> geant=20
> in the army in 1956.  Thedrill sergeant never attributed it to anyone.
>  Does=
> =20
> anyone out there know who said this?  Thanks.
>
> DC--=20
> ********************************************************"
> Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eatsyou." -
> William=20
> Faulkner
>  =20
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----=
> --
> ---------------------------------------------
> TOOLS OF IGNORANCE
>  =20
>    I was going through Grant Barrett's wonderful site (a food word
> posted=20
> today is one that I'd previously posted here on ADS-L).  I like the
> term "to=
> ols=20
> of ignorance," but I can't beat the 1936 Newspaperarchive hit.
>  =20
>  =20
> http://www.doubletongued.org
> tools of ignorance n. a baseball catcher=E2=80=99s mask, shin guards,
> and ch=
> est=20
> padding.=20
> 1936 Arcadia Tribune (Calif.) (May 2) =E2=80=9CBreadmen to Face
> Locals=E2=
> =80=9D p. 1: Leroy=20
> Zimmerman, star local high school graduate, will perform on the mound
> for th=
> e=20
> Corpe squad with Max Purcell donning the tools of ignorance to handle
> his=20
> slants. 2003 Vince Staten Why Is The Foul Pole Fair? (Apr. 1) p. 266:
> Bresna=
> han=E2=80=99s=20
> shin guards were the final pieces of the =E2=80=9Ctools of
> ignorance,=E2=80=
> =9D that great=20
> descriptive phrase for the catcher=E2=80=99s equipment. There are
> conflictin=
> g stories=20
> about who came up with that wonderful monker: Some sources credit
> Herold=20=
> =E2=80=9CMuddy=E2=80=9D=20
> Ruel, a Senators catcher who caught for Walter Johnson and later
> became a=20
> lawyer. The more likely=E2=80=94and earlier=E2=80=94story, from the
> =E2=80=
> =9CDiamond Jargon=E2=80=9D column in=20
> the August 1939 issue of Baseball Magazine accepts Yankee catcher Bill
> Dicke=
> y=20
> as the true author. Dickey supposedly coined the term while donning
> his gear=
> =20
> and brooding over why anyone would want to be a catcher in July heat.
> I like=
> =20
> the Dickey story because it was published sixteen years before the
> Ruel clai=
> m.=20
> 2004 [White] toolsOfIgnorance (Monrovia, Calif.) (May 14)
> =E2=80=9CHowdy=E2=
> =80=9D: The term =E2=80=9C
> tools of ignorance=E2=80=9D is my 2nd favorite baseball
> colloquialism.=20
>
>  =20
> (WWW.PAPEROFRECORD.COM)
>    8 August 1940, THE  SPORTING NEWS, pg. 2, col. 1:
>   So, on his own suggestion, James Emory Foxx, the finest all-round
> player i=
> n=20
> baseball, donned the "tools of ignorance," as players refer to the
> chest=20
> protector, mask and big mitt, on July 31, and became first-string
> catcher of=
>  the=20
> Red Sox.
>  =20
>    6 April 1944, THE SPORTING NEWS, pg. 3, col. 1:
>    "Players call the catcher's armor the 'tools of ignorance,'"
> Ferrell=20
> continued.  "Outfielders contend that no one in their senses would
> clutter=20
> themselves up with a mask, a heavy chest protector and weigh down
> their legs=
>  with shin=20
> guards.  All of this when the mercury is trying to climb out of the
> top of=20
> the tube, and those outfielders are on vacation, waiting for something
> to=20
> happen."
>
>  =20
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
> THE SPORTS X-RAY
> BOB RAY. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.:
> Mar 27,=
> =20
> 1937. p. A11 (1 page) :
>    Ball players call a catcher's paraphernalia "the tools of
> ignorance." =20
> Supposition is that a guy must be ignoranct ever to tackle such a
> tough job=20=
> as=20
> catching.
>


From taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM  Thu Jun  3 08:08:24 2004
From: taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM (Bonnie Taylor-Blake)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 04:08:24 -0400
Subject: WGAF [was "phat/phatt"]
In-Reply-To: <200406030430.i534UPoW013493@ncmx03.mgw.rr.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.040824.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> ------------------- Information from the mail header -------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> FWIW, when I was in the Army, stationed at Andrews Barracks
> in what was
> then West Berlin in the early 'Sixties, we enlisted men formed a
> pseudo-fraternity called WGAF, pronounced "wegaf." The letters stood
> for "We Give A Fuck," with the negative connotation. But those in
> authority were told that this stood for "We Guard America's Freedom."
> Hence, when a sergeant said, e.g. "I want five warm bodies for latrine
> duty," we would chorus, "Wegaf, sergeant!", making it appear that we
> were so gung-ho (often hypercorrected to "gun-ho") that we were eager
> to do a job that "took the meat."


Wilson Gray's comment (thank you) reminds me of an anecdote involving
the rather sly use of "WGASA" (which is pronounced as "wagasa").  See
David Mikkelson's analysis of the San Diego Zoo's adoption of this
acronym,

<http://www.snopes.com/business/names/wgasa.asp>

-- Bonnie Taylor-Blake


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Thu Jun  3 11:52:21 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 07:52:21 -0400
Subject: shero
In-Reply-To: <20040603040450.B401322881@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.075221.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold sez:


today's Fresh Air had a long interview with Donna Brazill (Al Gore's
campaign manager in 2000).


For the record, she spells it "Brazile", or at least the NYT did in the 5/31
Books section interview. I was wondering how to pronounce it; Arnold's post
indicates /I/ and suggests final stress.


-- Mark A. Mandel


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Thu Jun  3 11:56:48 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 07:56:48 -0400
Subject: off the wall
In-Reply-To: <20040603040450.B401322881@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.075648.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET> replies to my comment:

        >>
Had I been able to predict the kind of response that my message would
elicit from you, I would have made a greater effort to clarify my
remarks. Unfortunately, I could not. Therefore, I ask only that you
accept my sincerest apologies. I regret the error.
        <<

Accepted, sir. <bow>

        >>
On the other hand, I found your remarks re telephony quite informative.
        <<

I'm glad they were helpful.

May I make a suggestion for your future reference? Given your quite
reasonable doubts about white people's familiarity with Black culture, I
found it not entirely consistent that you assumed that all the readers of
this list would be familiar with a hip-hop movie.

-- Mark A. Mandel, Research Administrator
   Information Extraction from the Biomedical Literature
   University of Pennsylvania


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  3 12:25:26 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 08:25:26 EDT
Subject: "Pop-Pop" revisited
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.082526.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On  Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:29:26 -0600,   Joan Houston Hall
<jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU> wrote on the
Subject: "Re: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb"

>There's a nice map in Volume IV of DARE showing "pop-pop" to be found
>chiefly in PA, NJ, DE, MD.

and several other people (including myself) wrote in support of this
geographical distribution of "Pop-Pop" for "grandfather".

However, last night (June 2) the A&E cable network had a two-hour show, which
I taped,  on J. K. Rowling and the Harry Potter movies.  (Note:  the show
consistent had "Rowling" rhyme with "bowling", not "howling").  In the show
Richard Harris stated:

<quote>
My granddaughter called me and said, "Pop-Pop," she said, "If you don't play
Dumbledore, I will never speak to you again."
<end quote>

At least I heard it as "Pop-Pop", and I played the tape three or four times
to check.  Harris mumbled the title; it could have been "Papa" but that sounds
unlikely as a title for one's grandfather.

Two obvious hypotheses:
1)  "Pop-Pop" has a wider distribution than the DARE data suggests or
2)  Harris's granddaughter lives in the Middle Atlantic States

       - James A. Landau


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun  3 13:16:56 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:16:56 -0400
Subject: off the wall
In-Reply-To: <200406030457.1bvQQy7sI3NZFl40@penguin>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.091656.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 3, 2004, at 7:56 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: off the wall
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson Gray <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET> replies to my comment:
>
>>>
> Had I been able to predict the kind of response that my message would
> elicit from you, I would have made a greater effort to clarify my
> remarks. Unfortunately, I could not. Therefore, I ask only that you
> accept my sincerest apologies. I regret the error.
>         <<
>
> Accepted, sir. <bow>
>
>>>
> On the other hand, I found your remarks re telephony quite informative.
>         <<
>
> I'm glad they were helpful.
>
> May I make a suggestion for your future reference? Given your quite
> reasonable doubts about white people's familiarity with Black culture,
> I
> found it not entirely consistent that you assumed that all the readers
> of
> this list would be familiar with a hip-hop movie.
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel, Research Administrator
>    Information Extraction from the Biomedical Literature
>    University of Pennsylvania
>

Well, uh, actually, my underlying assumption re the movie, "I Got The
Hook-Up," was exactly the opposite: that no one here would be familiar
with it, given that the movie was made by blacks for blacks to suit
black taste. (The preceding puns on a radio advertisement from my
childhood, ca.1941: "Made by Americans for Americans to suit  American
taste! L.S.[pause]M.F.T.! Lucky Strike MEANS 'fine tobacco!'" [tobacco
auctioneer's chant ending with the phrase, "Sold, American!"]  A joke
of the day was that the Feds were investigating Lucky Strike because
they had heard that the company sold Americans. "American," in this
case, actually referred to the American Tobacco Co,)
I can only once again beg your indulgence, regarding the lack of
clarity in my postings.

-Wilson Gray


From jstearns at COMPACT.ORG  Thu Jun  3 13:34:03 2004
From: jstearns at COMPACT.ORG (Josh Stearns)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:34:03 -0400
Subject: Ivory tower
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.093403.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greetings,

I am looking for the etymology for "ivory tower" in reference to higher
education. Any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
J. Stearns


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Thu Jun  3 13:54:02 2004
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 14:54:02 +0100
Subject: Ivory tower
In-Reply-To: <BCE4A10B.C539%jstearns@compact.org>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.145402.0100.>

> I am looking for the etymology for "ivory tower" in reference to
> higher education. Any help you could provide would be greatly
> appreciated.

It's not especially clear where it comes from. I've had a shot at
explaining it at http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ivo1.htm .

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun  3 15:30:46 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 11:30:46 -0400
Subject: shero
In-Reply-To: <20040603074957.S25821@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.113046.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No, stress is on the first syllable:  [brae' z at l].

At 07:52 AM 6/3/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Arnold sez:
>
>
>today's Fresh Air had a long interview with Donna Brazill (Al Gore's
>campaign manager in 2000).
>
>
>For the record, she spells it "Brazile", or at least the NYT did in the 5/31
>Books section interview. I was wondering how to pronounce it; Arnold's post
>indicates /I/ and suggests final stress.
>
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun  3 15:39:55 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 11:39:55 -0400
Subject: "Pop-Pop" revisited
In-Reply-To: <15d.36b0a936.2df072b6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.113955.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And one more:  If she did say Papa, that's not far from Papaw, which IS
grandfather in much of the Appalachian/South Midland region (Mamaw is
grandmother).  In fact, I've heard Papa and Mama used for grandparents too,
but rarely.

That doesn't negate your suggestion that Pop Pop might also have wider
currency, of course.  The books I have on British English don't deal with
lexical variation very much, but I wonder if anyone knows whether either
Papa/Papaw or Pop Pop is used in Britain?

And Rowling does rhyme with bowling, in her pronunciation.

At 08:25 AM 6/3/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>On  Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:29:26 -0600,   Joan Houston Hall
><jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU> wrote on the
>Subject: "Re: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb"
>
> >There's a nice map in Volume IV of DARE showing "pop-pop" to be found
> >chiefly in PA, NJ, DE, MD.
>
>and several other people (including myself) wrote in support of this
>geographical distribution of "Pop-Pop" for "grandfather".
>
>However, last night (June 2) the A&E cable network had a two-hour show, which
>I taped,  on J. K. Rowling and the Harry Potter movies.  (Note:  the show
>consistent had "Rowling" rhyme with "bowling", not "howling").  In the show
>Richard Harris stated:
>
><quote>
>My granddaughter called me and said, "Pop-Pop," she said, "If you don't play
>Dumbledore, I will never speak to you again."
><end quote>
>
>At least I heard it as "Pop-Pop", and I played the tape three or four times
>to check.  Harris mumbled the title; it could have been "Papa" but that sounds
>unlikely as a title for one's grandfather.
>
>Two obvious hypotheses:
>1)  "Pop-Pop" has a wider distribution than the DARE data suggests or
>2)  Harris's granddaughter lives in the Middle Atlantic States
>
>        - James A. Landau


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Jun  3 16:22:31 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:22:31 -0700
Subject: New ADS server and primary email; new site TK
In-Reply-To: <B4C6FCB2-B513-11D8-A695-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.092231.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oops! Sorry--kudos to all three!

Peter Mc.

--On Thursday, June 3, 2004 12:08 AM -0400 Grant Barrett
<gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG> wrote:

> Sorry, but I can't take credit for managing the email list. It is
> managed separately from the web site by Jesse Sheidlower and Terry
> Irons, who, I concur, do a great job keeping the list trouble- and
> spam-free.
>
> Grant
>
> On Jun 2, 2004, at 18:32, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>
>> And I say, kudos to Grant for managing the web site for quite a number
>> of
>> years, and now for buttering cats' paws and dealing with oodles o'
>> spam--all so that the rest of us can effortlessly enjoy this list.



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun  3 17:36:29 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 10:36:29 -0700
Subject: shero
In-Reply-To: <20040603074957.S25821@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.103629.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 3, 2004, at 4:52 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ..For the record, she spells it "Brazile", or at least the NYT did in
> the 5/31 Books section interview. I was wondering how to pronounce it;
> Arnold's post indicates /I/ and suggests final stress.

the pronunciation i'm sure of: just like Brazil (where the nuts come
from).

i wasn't at all sure of the spelling, though.  googling on Brazil got
me nothing having to do with her, but Brazill worked.  now i see that
it is indeed Brazile.  my apologies.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun  3 17:48:50 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 10:48:50 -0700
Subject: shero
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040603112935.011651c8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.104850.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 3, 2004, at 8:30 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> No, stress is on the first syllable:  [brae' z at l].

it was stressed on the second syllable all the way through the Fresh
Air interview.  i just went back and replayed the interview.

no doubt there are people named Brazile who pronounce the name with
stress on the first syllable.  but i doubt very much that up-front,
outspoken Donna Brazile would have put up with an interviewer
mispronouncing her name repeatedly on air.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun  3 18:11:34 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 14:11:34 -0400
Subject: shero
In-Reply-To: <4571B0E6-B586-11D8-9ADB-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.141134.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm surprised too, but I've heard it pronounced "my way" many times.  We'll
have to ask her!

At 10:48 AM 6/3/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>On Jun 3, 2004, at 8:30 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>>No, stress is on the first syllable:  [brae' z at l].
>
>it was stressed on the second syllable all the way through the Fresh
>Air interview.  i just went back and replayed the interview.
>
>no doubt there are people named Brazile who pronounce the name with
>stress on the first syllable.  but i doubt very much that up-front,
>outspoken Donna Brazile would have put up with an interviewer
>mispronouncing her name repeatedly on air.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From pds at VISI.COM  Thu Jun  3 18:38:27 2004
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 18:38:27 +0000
Subject: "Pop-Pop" revisited
In-Reply-To: <20040603154104.A6D104CF0@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.183827.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Those who use "mor-mor" for grandmother, use "pa-pa" (equal emphasis, equal
vowels, not PA-p@ or p at -PA) for grandfather.  In my acquaintance these are
Minnesotans of Swedish descent, but perhaps it is more widespread(?)  Anyway,
this pa-pa could also be mis-heard as "pop-pop".
--Tom Kysilko

Quoting Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>:

> And one more:  If she did say Papa, that's not far from Papaw, which IS
> grandfather in much of the Appalachian/South Midland region (Mamaw is
> grandmother).  In fact, I've heard Papa and Mama used for grandparents too,
> but rarely.
>
> That doesn't negate your suggestion that Pop Pop might also have wider
> currency, of course.  The books I have on British English don't deal with
> lexical variation very much, but I wonder if anyone knows whether either
> Papa/Papaw or Pop Pop is used in Britain?
>
> At 08:25 AM 6/3/2004 -0400, you wrote:
<snip-snip>
> >At least I heard it as "Pop-Pop", and I played the tape three or four times
> >to check.  Harris mumbled the title; it could have been "Papa" but that
> sounds
> >unlikely as a title for one's grandfather.
> >        - James A. Landau


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun  3 18:33:26 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 14:33:26 -0400
Subject: The f-word
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.143326.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, I quote from Buck's "Selected Indo-European Synonyms":

NE fuck ... quotable in print from the early 16th cent. ...  a much
earlier date is evidenced by the name John le Fucker quoted from 1278
A.D.

-Wilson Gray


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun  3 18:36:30 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 11:36:30 -0700
Subject: shero
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040603141030.02285fa0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.113630.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 3, 2004, at 11:11 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote, re the stress in
Brazile:

> I'm surprised too, but I've heard it pronounced "my way" many times.
> We'll have to ask her!

we *could* be facing one of those situations where people accept more
than one pronunciation of their names.  (certainly true of Judith
Klavans, and i believe of Peter Trudgill as well.)

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun  3 18:38:11 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 14:38:11 -0400
Subject: The f-word
In-Reply-To: <80CDECC4-B58C-11D8-8CAE-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.143811.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 02:33:26PM -0400, Wilson Gray wrote:
> FWIW, I quote from Buck's "Selected Indo-European Synonyms":
>
> NE fuck ... quotable in print from the early 16th cent. ...  a much
> earlier date is evidenced by the name John le Fucker quoted from 1278
> A.D.

This name has been exhaustively argued over--I could supply the
references if they weren't buried away somewhere--but the bottom
line is that it does not represent the same word as ModE _fuck_.

Jesse Sheidlower


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun  3 21:00:53 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:00:53 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <20040602233617.GB21111@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.170053.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> I find this astonishing, absolutely astonishing.

I have in front of me Joseph E. Wessely, Handy Dictionary of the Latin and
English Languages.  It has no date, but the Yale catalog assigns it the
dating "188-."  On page 29 appears the following:

cunnus, i, _m. cunt, strumpet._

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun  3 21:05:23 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:05:23 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0406031659060.7969-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.170523.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 05:00:53PM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
> > I find this astonishing, absolutely astonishing.
>
> I have in front of me Joseph E. Wessely, Handy Dictionary of the Latin and
> English Languages.  It has no date, but the Yale catalog assigns it the
> dating "188-."  On page 29 appears the following:
>
> cunnus, i, _m. cunt, strumpet._

Oh, I didn't say I didn't believe it. Just that I find it astonishing.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET  Thu Jun  3 21:15:54 2004
From: SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET (Yerkes, Susan)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 16:15:54 -0500
Subject: "Sometimes you eat the bear..." (1904); "Tools of Ignorance"
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.161554.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the
fly/bug"? Surely that's a much later, but parallel phrase.

Susan Yerkes

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Bapopik at AOL.COM
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 11:25 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: "Sometimes you eat the bear..." (1904); "Tools of Ignorance"


SOMETIMES YOU EAT THE BEAR, AND SOMETIMES THE BEAR EATS YOU

(ADS-L)
Sometimes, you eat the bear; sometimes, the bear eats you. -Wilson Gray

YOU EAT THE BEAR--1,530 Google hits, 4,870 Google Groups hits BEAR EATS
YOU--693 Google hits, 2,340 Google Groups hits

   Or, as Carole King used to sing. "sometimes you win, sometimes you
lose."
   Where does this come from?  These searches aren't easy.  You can
replace
"eat" with "hunt" and "get."  It goes back at least 100 years.
    I don't know about Fred Shapiro's bear collection.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Some Heartbreaks Are Relined
By JOHN S. RADOSTA Special to The New York Times. New York Times
(1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 21, 1973. p. 93 (1 page) :
   DAYTONE BEACH, Fla., Feb. 28--"Some days you eat the bear," Bobby
Allison
was saying, "and some days the bear eats you. "

Hunting: Some Days You Eat the Bear, Some Days --
BY ANGUS PHILLIPS. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington,
D.C.:
Dec 7, 1979. p. W45 (1 page)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Indiana Democrat - 12/14/1904
...SOMETIMES you bunt THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR hunts you and
oace
in.....him rope and turned off sideways. THE BEAR went to THE end of THE
forty
foot..
Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, December 14, 1904  828 k

New Oxford Item - 1/13/1905
...SOMETIMES you hunt THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR hunts and once in

a.....At one end of THE cabin a brown BEAR paced ceaselessly to and fro
with..
New Oxford, Pennsylvania Friday, January 13, 1905  619 k

Walla Walla Union Bulletin - 5/31/1976
...later put it, "SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you and SOMETIMES you eat THE
.....and he would have come out-loaded for BEAR. It would have been a
heck of a..
Walla Walla, Washington Monday, May 31, 1976  651 k

Lincoln Star - 5/31/1976
...Indy INDIANAPOLIS (AP) "SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you and SOMETIMES you
eat
THE.....That's just THE way things work out SOMETIMES. "I feel sorry for
A.
J., but..
Lincoln, Nebraska Monday, May 31, 1976  599 k

Frederick Post - 5/14/1984
...YOU eat the BEAR, and sometimes the BEAR EATS YOU." Storm Davis,
3-0.....Knights finished no lower than fifth. "YOU've got to have the
numbers in
order..
Frederick, Maryland Monday, May 14, 1984  766 k

Mountain Democrat - 7/28/1989
...SOMETIMES you eat THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you. THE BEAR
.....see THE shots people take on TV, and SOMETIMES it's tough to get up
from..
Placerville, California Friday, July 28, 1989  516 k

Chronicle Telegram - 12/12/1994
...year, SOMETIMES you eat THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you.
Today,
THE.....THE Oilers. After taking THE brunt of THE criticism for THE loss

against THE..
Elyria, Ohio Monday, December 12, 1994  663 k

Mountain Democrat - 9/12/1997
...HILLS SOME DAYS you eat THE BEAR SOME DAYS THE BEAR eats you. Monday
THE
Oak.....THE truth. It is true that THEre are SOME really fast runners
out THEre
who..
Placerville, California Friday, September 12, 1997  526 k

Wellsboro Gazette - 5/26/1999
...SOMETIMES you get THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR gets Mansfield
coach.....one hit." THE only hit of THE game for THE Tigers came in THE
bottom of THE ..
Wellsboro, Pennsylvania Wednesday, May 26, 1999  509 k

Gettysburg Times - 2/3/2003
...win. "SOMETIMES you eat THE BEAR and SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats said
Hefner.....cut THE lead to 59-56 with left. Dana BEAR hit a runner in
THE lane and THE ..

Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Monday, February 03, 2003  711 k


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: David Clasky (dclasky at mail.mia.hellsouth.net)
Subject: "...eat the bear..."
This is the only article in this thread
View: Original Format
Newsgroups: alt.quotations
Date: 1997/06/05

In my signature file the quote "Sometimes you eat the bear, and
sometimes the
bear eats you" is attributed to William Faulkner.  Many people have told
me
that the quote is from someone else, and they have given theories
ranging from
Joan Armatrading to Star Trek!  I've also heard it attributed to Stephen

Stills.  I originally heard it from my father, who heard it from a drill
sergeant
in the army in 1956.  Thedrill sergeant never attributed it to anyone.
Does
anyone out there know who said this?  Thanks.

DC--
********************************************************"
Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eatsyou." - William
Faulkner

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
---------------------------------------------
TOOLS OF IGNORANCE

   I was going through Grant Barrett's wonderful site (a food word
posted
today is one that I'd previously posted here on ADS-L).  I like the term
"tools
of ignorance," but I can't beat the 1936 Newspaperarchive hit.


http://www.doubletongued.org
tools of ignorance n. a baseball catcher's mask, shin guards, and chest
padding.
1936 Arcadia Tribune (Calif.) (May 2) "Breadmen to Face Locals" p. 1:
Leroy
Zimmerman, star local high school graduate, will perform on the mound
for the
Corpe squad with Max Purcell donning the tools of ignorance to handle
his
slants. 2003 Vince Staten Why Is The Foul Pole Fair? (Apr. 1) p. 266:
Bresnahan's
shin guards were the final pieces of the "tools of ignorance," that
great
descriptive phrase for the catcher's equipment. There are conflicting
stories
about who came up with that wonderful monker: Some sources credit Herold
"Muddy"
Ruel, a Senators catcher who caught for Walter Johnson and later became
a
lawyer. The more likely-and earlier-story, from the "Diamond Jargon"
column in
the August 1939 issue of Baseball Magazine accepts Yankee catcher Bill
Dickey
as the true author. Dickey supposedly coined the term while donning his
gear
and brooding over why anyone would want to be a catcher in July heat. I
like
the Dickey story because it was published sixteen years before the Ruel
claim.
2004 [White] toolsOfIgnorance (Monrovia, Calif.) (May 14) "Howdy": The
term " tools of ignorance" is my 2nd favorite baseball colloquialism.


(WWW.PAPEROFRECORD.COM)
   8 August 1940, THE  SPORTING NEWS, pg. 2, col. 1:
  So, on his own suggestion, James Emory Foxx, the finest all-round
player in
baseball, donned the "tools of ignorance," as players refer to the chest

protector, mask and big mitt, on July 31, and became first-string
catcher of the
Red Sox.

   6 April 1944, THE SPORTING NEWS, pg. 3, col. 1:
   "Players call the catcher's armor the 'tools of ignorance,'" Ferrell
continued.  "Outfielders contend that no one in their senses would
clutter
themselves up with a mask, a heavy chest protector and weigh down their
legs with shin
guards.  All of this when the mercury is trying to climb out of the top
of
the tube, and those outfielders are on vacation, waiting for something
to
happen."


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
THE SPORTS X-RAY
BOB RAY. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar
27,
1937. p. A11 (1 page) :
   Ball players call a catcher's paraphernalia "the tools of ignorance."

Supposition is that a guy must be ignoranct ever to tackle such a tough
job as
catching.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun  3 21:29:06 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:29:06 -0400
Subject: "Pop-Pop" revisited
In-Reply-To: <1086287907.40bf7023ac33c@my.visi.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.172906.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ah, but that's a whole nother set--mormor, morfar, farmor, and farfar (I
think I have them right--mother's mother, mother's father, etc.).  My
sister is mormor to her grandson, but her husband (were he alive) would be
morfar.  I've never heard pa-pa used for grandfather among Scandinavian
Americans, but I've been away from Minnesota for a long while.  (My
colleague, who knows Finnish and Swedish pretty well, says his Finnish
in-laws use Pa-pa for g-father, but he's never heard Swedes do so.)

But I do think Richard Harris may have been misheard as saying PApa (same
vowels), which seems very English to me.

At 06:38 PM 6/3/2004 +0000, you wrote:
>Those who use "mor-mor" for grandmother, use "pa-pa" (equal emphasis, equal
>vowels, not PA-p@ or p at -PA) for grandfather.  In my acquaintance these are
>Minnesotans of Swedish descent, but perhaps it is more widespread(?)  Anyway,
>this pa-pa could also be mis-heard as "pop-pop".
>--Tom Kysilko
>
>Quoting Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>:
>
> > And one more:  If she did say Papa, that's not far from Papaw, which IS
> > grandfather in much of the Appalachian/South Midland region (Mamaw is
> > grandmother).  In fact, I've heard Papa and Mama used for grandparents too,
> > but rarely.
> >
> > That doesn't negate your suggestion that Pop Pop might also have wider
> > currency, of course.  The books I have on British English don't deal with
> > lexical variation very much, but I wonder if anyone knows whether either
> > Papa/Papaw or Pop Pop is used in Britain?
> >
> > At 08:25 AM 6/3/2004 -0400, you wrote:
><snip-snip>
> > >At least I heard it as "Pop-Pop", and I played the tape three or four
> times
> > >to check.  Harris mumbled the title; it could have been "Papa" but that
> > sounds
> > >unlikely as a title for one's grandfather.
> > >        - James A. Landau


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Jun  3 21:50:58 2004
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 14:50:58 -0700
Subject: American vs. European Date formats (Modified by Grant Barrett)
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.145058.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>People in the US will say I was born on March 12, 1984 (for example) >whereas I
>would say it "I was born on the 12th of March, 1984".
I don't know if this is any help in tracing the origin of either way, but German says "(I was born) am sechsten Juni" , i.e. the 6th (of) June; and (today is) der dritte Juni" the third (of) June.  I don't think "Juni sechste" --June 6th-- is even possible.
Fritz Juengling


Alan O'Flaherty
oflaherty at o2.ie


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun  3 22:28:57 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 18:28:57 -0400
Subject: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.182857.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I first heard "rip off" used as slang in 1966 in Los Angeles. Three
(black) women were downing [= putting down] a fourth woman who,
obviously, was not present. One of the women, in the course of her
critique, said, "[Whatever her name was] is a stone loser. Why, she
even lets guys rip her off in the backseats of cars!"
 From the context, it was clear that "rip off" meant "have sexual
intercourse with."
And, in my mind, the term's history was totally obvious. When I was
living in Saint Louis in 1950, the phrase, "tear off a piece [of ass],"
came into use among black males. (Interestingly enough, the phrase
"knock off a piece [of ass]" simultaneously came into use among white
males. (Though I lived black, I was educated white. My all-male prep
school had 800 white students and seven black ones.)) Sixteen years
later, ay walah, *rip off.
What bugs me is this. _This is the *one and only time* that I've *ever*
heard "rip off" used with a sexual connotation. As we all know, "rip
off" now universally has the meaning, "steal, rob," etc. In view of my
assertion that women don't originate
slang, how did it happen that I first heard this term used by a woman
and not by a man? On the other hand, if my assertion is wrong and this
phrase did originate among women, there remains the problem of why and
how did it, almost immediately, so completely lose its sexual meaning?
As far as I can tell, I may be the only native speaker of English on
the face of the earth who uses "rip off" with the meaning, "have sex."

-Wilson Gray


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun  3 23:12:15 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 19:12:15 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <20040603210523.GA26314@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.191215.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> Oh, I didn't say I didn't believe it. Just that I find it astonishing.

I didn't think you were disbelieving George.  But I shared your
astonishment, and thought confirmation of the citation would be of general
interest.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Thu Jun  3 23:32:13 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 18:32:13 -0500
Subject: Lady Team Nicknames
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.183213.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> This naming system was
>introduced to the nation as a whole when, in 1982, the women's
>basketball team of Louisiana Tech [sic] University won the NCAA
>Division I basketball championship. The nickname of the university's
>teams is the "Techsters." Therefore, the women's basketball team,
>dominated by black women, called itself the "_Lady_ Techsters,"
>following the usual black custom. White America, as is so often the
>case, looked upon this black them and found it hip.
>-Wilson Gray



I was at Univ of TN in the early 1980s when we were building into
a national power.  I saw them play LaTech a couple of times (when
you could still get tickets . . . ).  The women's team had been the
"Lady Vols" since 1976, well before 1982.  I think Florida has been
the Lady Gators since the 1973-74 season.

Many other teams were using the "Lady" nickname before 1982,
including in areas with very little black influence (Vermont, Canada).

Isn't it likely that this "system" came into play as schools fielded
women's teams in the 1970's (due to Title IX), not because they were
following a black naming convention, but because it allowed them to
take advantage of brand identities already existing in the men's teams?


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Thu Jun  3 23:33:52 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 18:33:52 -0500
Subject: Bulletin of Atomic Scientists Archive
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.183352.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists is opening up their archives for a
free trial
in PDF format.  The search engine isn't perfect; it sometimes returns
magazine
pages that are off by one or two.

This offer is only good for a couple of months, then it will be available to
paid
subscribers only.


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Thu Jun  3 23:51:41 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 19:51:41 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries: the Wessely dictionary
In-Reply-To: <200406030404.AAA16680@babel.ling.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.195141.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Wessely dictionary seems to have an interesting history, as far as I can
work out from the BorrowDirect catalogue to which I have access (which searches
the libraries of Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Penn, Princeton and
Yale).

A slightly more complete answer to the dating question is probably to be had
from the Yale catalogue entry:

AUTHOR: Wessely, Joseph Eduard, 1826-1895
TITLE: Handy dictionary of the Latin and English languages, with an appendix of
Latin geographical, historical and mythological proper names.
IMPRINT: Philadelphia : D. McKay, [188-?]

But NB the author:  not Ignaz Emanuel Wessely here, but Joseph Eduard, born
fifteen years earlier.

The plot thickens.  I'll end the main part of this message here since, for a
list about English, the rest of it is decidedly OT.  What follows my signature
is the details of other editions of what is possibly the same dictionary,
included only in case someone is interested in getting the possible later
editions and seeing whether 'cunt' has been removed or not.

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania

=================================

There also appears to have been at least one twentieth-century edition of the
same dictionary:

AUTHOR:
TITLE: Handy dictionary of the Latin and English languages, with an appendix of
Latin, geographical, historical, and mythological proper names.
IMPRINT: Philadelphia, David McKay Company, 1943.

(no author cited;  this one is at Brown and Cornell).

Finally, this one may just share a title with the Wessely dictionary, though it
appears to have been published by the same house:

AUTHOR: Woodhouse, S. C. (Sidney Chawner), b. 1871
TITLE: Handy dictionary of the Latin and English languages / by S.C. Woodhouse.

IMPRINT: New York : D. McKay, 1962.

(at Brown and Princeton)


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Jun  3 23:52:50 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 19:52:50 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.195250.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you, Fred.  If I don't find my copy of this dictionary this weekend, I won't find it until I next move.

I didn't suppose that Jesse was doubting me, though doubting a memory of something read 40 years before is very reasonable.  But I am glad that the exact citation is now before us.

I had a thought that I might use ABEBooks or the like to identify booksellers with this book, and ask them to check to see whether this definition was present in their copy.  But I see that D. McKay kept a book of this title in print into the 1960s, purportedly edited or revised, and I didn't recognize any as being the 19th C version.  I have just quickly checked the NYTimes on ProQuest, looking for a 19th C advertisement that might date the earliest printing of the book, but found nothing.

If a Latinist among us can suggest other Juvenalian words Fred or another with this book in hand might check to see whether this sort of vernacular definition was the editorial policy.  The male organ of generation is, I think, "mentula"?

I suspect that it was either a prank or sabotage on the part of a compositor.  This first press run of Twain's Huckleberry Finn was recalled because an engraver, (fired for drunkenness, I think) before he left, took a plate for the book showing a middle-aged male character standing with his arm around his wife's shoulder and added a few lines to give a bulge at the groin of the man's trousers.
A compositor either seeing cunnus discretely defined, in Latin, perhaps, thought I can give a better definition than that, or, not seeing cunnus at all, thought How can they leave out one of the most useful words in the Latin language?

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 3, 2004 5:00 pm
Subject: Re: dirty words in dictionaries

> On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
> > I find this astonishing, absolutely astonishing.
>
> I have in front of me Joseph E. Wessely, Handy Dictionary of the
> Latin and
> English Languages.  It has no date, but the Yale catalog assigns
> it the
> dating "188-."  On page 29 appears the following:
>
> cunnus, i, _m. cunt, strumpet._
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF
> QUOTATIONS  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale
> University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu
> http://quotationdictionary.com-------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun  4 00:02:03 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:02:03 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <187746a187c373.187c373187746a@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.200203.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 07:52:50PM -0400, George Thompson wrote:
>
> If a Latinist among us can suggest other Juvenalian words
> Fred or another with this book in hand might check to see
> whether this sort of vernacular definition was the editorial
> policy.  The male organ of generation is, I think,
> "mentula"?

Yes. I'd like to see how it defines "irrumare", or any of its
relatives (irrumatio, irrumator). This word, which means 'to
fuck the mouth of' (and is equivalently vulgar), is very
common in Catullus, who's often read in first- or second-year
Latin courses. It's defined by Lewis & Short as "to commit
beastly acts"; it's not in the non-small Cassell's Latin
Dictionary I used in high school, and Quinn's student edition,
from the 1980s or so, "defines" it as "mentulam in os inserere"
(I thought that habit had died a century before). The Oxford
Latin Dictionary, which I don't have at home, does give it a
reasonable, if overly proper, definition.

Jesse Sheidlower

P.S. "futuere" might be another one worth checking, of course.


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun  4 00:06:12 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:06:12 -0400
Subject: Acronyms (was: Phat(t), etc)
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.200612.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On the subject now of acronyms, technical or not, which have entered the
language, there's what looks like a very interesting site at

http://www.acronymfinder.com/

- you put in an acronym you want to know the definition of and it will
supposedly find it for you.

The question of 'non-technical' acronyms prompts two further ones:

- very many acronyms are now most often used, I'd say, in IM'ing.  Does that
count as technical or not?  The method certainly means that such acronyms have
come about because of technology and the need to communicate faster using a
text medium, but the majority of the messages conveyed using said acronyms are
probably not technical at all.

- does it only count if you would pronounce the acronym as a single 'word', eg
*Fucked/Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition* = <FUBAR> = 'foobar', or do things
like 'FWIW' count too?

Anyway, by Googling ACRONYM FUBAR I found what looks like a long list of
websites with lists of acronyms like this on them.  That seems to be the
easiest way to see how many of them there apparently are!

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun  4 00:09:12 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:09:12 -0400
Subject: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
In-Reply-To: <67542327-B5AD-11D8-8CAE-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.200912.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 06:28:57PM -0400, Wilson Gray wrote:
> I first heard "rip off" used as slang in 1966 in Los Angeles. Three
> (black) women were downing [= putting down] a fourth woman who,
> obviously, was not present. One of the women, in the course of her
> critique, said, "[Whatever her name was] is a stone loser. Why, she
> even lets guys rip her off in the backseats of cars!"
> From the context, it was clear that "rip off" meant "have sexual
> intercourse with."
> And, in my mind, the term's history was totally obvious. When I was
> living in Saint Louis in 1950, the phrase, "tear off a piece [of ass],"
> came into use among black males. (Interestingly enough, the phrase
> "knock off a piece [of ass]" simultaneously came into use among white
> males. (Though I lived black, I was educated white. My all-male prep
> school had 800 white students and seven black ones.)) Sixteen years
> later, ay walah, *rip off.
> What bugs me is this. _This is the *one and only time* that I've *ever*
> heard "rip off" used with a sexual connotation.

Though as a white man I am no doubt unfamiliar with most
aspects of black culture, I can tell you that _rip off_ 'to
have sexual intercourse with' or 'to rape' is reasonably well
attested in the 1960s, esp. in AAVE. We have examples from one
or two prison memoirs, from a Hell's Angel memoir, and from
several of the Iceberg Slim books.

The longer phrase _rip off a piece/hunk/etc._ does indeed
exist, and is attested at least as far back as the 1930s; I
assume it is the origin.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun  4 00:22:50 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:22:50 -0700
Subject: "Sometimes you eat the bear..." (1904); "Tools of Ignorance"
In-Reply-To: <200406031416.1bvZzi2323NZFjK0@condor>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.172250.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       "Yerkes, Susan" <SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET>
>Subject:      Re: "Sometimes you eat the bear..." (1904); "Tools of Ignorance"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>How about "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the
>fly/bug"? Surely that's a much later, but parallel phrase.

I've heard more frequently, "Sometimes you're the bird, sometimes
you're the statue."  I don't remember when I first heard it, though.

Rima


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun  4 00:24:18 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:24:18 -0400
Subject: Ivory tower
In-Reply-To: <40BF3B8A.19960.6968CF5@localhost>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.202418.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > I am looking for the etymology for "ivory tower" in reference to
> > higher education. Any help you could provide would be greatly
> > appreciated.
>
>It's not especially clear where it comes from. I've had a shot at
>explaining it at http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ivo1.htm .

I don't have any solid answer but I can add a few remarks.

I doubt that the Biblical "tower of ivory" used as a simile for a woman's
neck is relevant.

There are Biblical references to an "ivory house" or "ivory palace" (Ahab
had one, I think): I believe these might be relevant. Presumably an "ivory
palace" was a palace heavily decorated with ivory. (Any expert, please
correct me if necessary.) However on naive reading one might take this to
mean a palace constructed entirely of ivory, which would be the wonder of
the world, surely, unless it was a very tiny palace. I suspect this is the
basic concept.

Here are some lines referring to a sumptuous palace, from Matthew Prior's
poem "Solomon on the Vanity of the World", dating from 1718 (I think), as
printed in 1860, available on-line at MoA (Michigan):

    The workmen here obey'd the master's call,
To gild the turret, and to paint the wall;
To mark the pavement there with various stone,
And on the jasper steps to rear the throne:
The spreading cedar that an age had stood,
Supreme of trees, and mistress of the wood,
Cut down and carv'd, my shining roof adorns,
And Lebanon his ruin'd honour mourns.
A thousand artists show their cunning power,
To raise the wonders of the ivory tower.

Presumably this refers to a tower covered with ivory (scrimshaw?) at
enormous expense.

So the "ivory tower" may have represented fabulous luxury or wealth
originally. "Tower" in general could mean "place of refuge" too. "Tour
d'ivoire" seems to have appeared in several French works in the 19th
century; possibly review of some of these could show the semantic
development more clearly. Was Vigny considered a very prosperous and
comfortable person?

Anyway, "ivory tower" = "very luxurious and secure place" [such as that
inhabited by an ancient king, or by a modern tenured professor (^_^)] would
seem easy to derive from the above notion.

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun  4 00:45:31 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:45:31 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <20040604000203.GA10885@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.204531.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:02 PM 6/3/2004, you wrote:
>Yes. I'd like to see how it defines "irrumare", or any of its
>relatives (irrumatio, irrumator). This word, which means 'to
>fuck the mouth of' (and is equivalently vulgar), is very
>common in Catullus, who's often read in first- or second-year
>Latin courses. It's defined by Lewis & Short as "to commit
>beastly acts"; it's not in the non-small Cassell's Latin
>Dictionary I used in high school, and Quinn's student edition,
>from the 1980s or so, "defines" it as "mentulam in os inserere"
>(I thought that habit had died a century before). The Oxford
>Latin Dictionary, which I don't have at home, does give it a
>reasonable, if overly proper, definition.
>
>Jesse Sheidlower
>
>P.S. "futuere" might be another one worth checking, of course.

A Latin-English dictionary from ca. 1850 at MoA(Michigan) shows:

"Cunnus" ("the female pudenda ... an unchaste female, a courtesan".

"Cunnilingus", defined only in Latin ("cunnum lingens").

"Fellator" ("a sucker, in an obscene sense").

"Futuo" ("To have connection with a female (very rare)").

"Fututio" ("A lying with, copulation").

"Irrumo" ("To extend the breast to, to give suck; hence, ... To practice a
kind of filthy obscenity ... To treat in a foul or shameful manner, to
abuse, deceive ....").

-- Doug Wilson


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Fri Jun  4 00:46:51 2004
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:46:51 -0400
Subject: "Pop-Pop" revisited
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.204651.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My Swedish-American grandfather (b. 1889) was "Pop-Pop"--he was born in
Brooklyn, NY but his parents were from Sweden.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  4 01:02:36 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 21:02:36 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20dirty=20words=20in=20?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?dictionaries?=
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.210236.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have only seen IRRUMATION used in English in the sense of 'present the
penis or breast for someone to suck'. This is a very handy word to have available,
since there is no other word (that I can think of) that means that! Of
course, it is not a word that one normally has occasion to use.

I have never seen IRRUMATE used in English to mean 'fuck the mouth', but
maybe I've just missed it.

I don't find either IRRUMATE or IRRUMATION in any of the English dictionaries
that are on my desk at the moment.

In a message dated 6/3/04 8:46:29 PM, douglas at NB.NET writes:


> At 08:02 PM 6/3/2004, you wrote:
> >Yes. I'd like to see how it defines "irrumare", or any of its
> >relatives (irrumatio, irrumator). This word, which means 'to
> >fuck the mouth of' (and is equivalently vulgar), is very
> >common in Catullus, who's often read in first- or second-year
> >Latin courses. It's defined by Lewis & Short as "to commit
> >beastly acts"; it's not in the non-small Cassell's Latin
> >Dictionary I used in high school, and Quinn's student edition,
> >from the 1980s or so, "defines" it as "mentulam in os inserere"
> >(I thought that habit had died a century before). The Oxford
> >Latin Dictionary, which I don't have at home, does give it a
> >reasonable, if overly proper, definition.
> >
> >Jesse Sheidlower
> >
> >P.S. "futuere" might be another one worth checking, of course.
>
> A Latin-English dictionary from ca. 1850 at MoA(Michigan) shows:
>
> "Cunnus" ("the female pudenda ... an unchaste female, a courtesan".
>
> "Cunnilingus", defined only in Latin ("cunnum lingens").
>
> "Fellator" ("a sucker, in an obscene sense").
>
> "Futuo" ("To have connection with a female (very rare)").
>
> "Fututio" ("A lying with, copulation").
>
> "Irrumo" ("To extend the breast to, to give suck; hence, ... To practice a
> kind of filthy obscenity ... To treat in a foul or shameful manner, to
> abuse, deceive ....").
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 01:14:13 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 21:14:13 -0400
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
In-Reply-To: <D6C58E58-B3D4-11D8-88C8-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.211413.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>On Jun 1, 2004, at 9:33 AM, Dale Coye wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Dale Coye <Dalecoye at AOL.COM>
>>Subject:      Re: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>This reminds me of the Weavers' song-- not sure of the title but the
>>first
>>line is "We sailed on the ship John D."  --they sing "I feel so
>>break-up, I
>>wanna go home"   When I heard the Beach Boys version not so long ago
>>they changed
>>it to "I feel so broke up" which makes more sense to me-- almost in
>>the sense
>>we're talking about in "stove up"-- can anyone enlighten me on "feel so
>>break-up?"  why break and not broke?
>>
>>DF Coye
>>The College of NJ
>
>"The Ship 'John B.'" is a folksong of Caribbean origin - Jamaican, I
>think, but maybe not - and uses some form of Caribbean English. Is it
>true that the Beach Boys sing "broke up"? I've always heard it as
>"break up." My mistake, I guess.
>
>-Wilson Gray

It's actually "The Sloop John B." rather than "The Ship".  I was
pretty sure that the standard Beach Boys' recording of the song,
presumably adapted by Brian Wilson, did indeed have it "I feel so
break up", not "broke up", but a google search confirms Dale's
memory, not Wilson's and mine.  I'm puzzled, but resigned.   Maybe
they actually sang and recorded it both ways on different occasions?

Larry


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Jun  4 01:25:50 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 18:25:50 -0700
Subject: The f-word
In-Reply-To: <20040603183810.GA22355@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.182550.0700.>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Jesse Sheidlower
> Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 11:38 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: The f-word
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 02:33:26PM -0400, Wilson Gray wrote:
> > FWIW, I quote from Buck's "Selected Indo-European Synonyms":
> >
> > NE fuck ... quotable in print from the early 16th cent. ...  a much
> > earlier date is evidenced by the name John le Fucker quoted from 1278
> > A.D.
>
> This name has been exhaustively argued over--I could supply the
> references if they weren't buried away somewhere--but the bottom
> line is that it does not represent the same word as ModE _fuck_.

The "John le Fucker" reference first appears in Carl Buck's 1949
Indo-European dictionary. Buck does not supply a citation as to where he
found the name. No one has subsequently found the manuscript in which it is
alleged to have appeared.

If the citation is genuine and not an error, it is most likely a spelling
variant of "fulcher," meaning soldier.

A detailed discussion can be found in A.W. Read's "Milestones in The History
of English," PADS 86.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun  4 01:36:05 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 21:36:05 -0400
Subject: The f-word
In-Reply-To: <OCEFKEEBCCDKPHIMICJGEEKOCJAA.dave@wilton.net>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.213605.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>The "John le Fucker" reference first appears in Carl Buck's 1949
>Indo-European dictionary. Buck does not supply a citation as to where he
>found the name. No one has subsequently found the manuscript in which it is
>alleged to have appeared.
>
>If the citation is genuine and not an error, it is most likely a spelling
>variant of "fulcher," meaning soldier.

Oxford "Dictionary of English Surnames", under "Fulcher" (with many
spelling variants):

"... Nicholas Fuker' 1234 ... Warin Fucher 1235 ... John Foucher' 1242 ...
from OFr Foucher, Fouquier, from OG Fulchar, Fulcher 'people-army'."

-- Doug Wilson


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  4 01:40:07 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 21:40:07 EDT
Subject: wordorigins.org
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.214007.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone know anything about "wordorigins.org"?

Their URL is
http://p066.ezboard.com/bwordoriginsorg

This Web site seems to be quoting liberally and somewhat mysteriously from
ADS-L .
Just curious.  I guess they're harmless.

     - Jim Landau


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Jun  4 02:00:53 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 19:00:53 -0700
Subject: wordorigins.org
In-Reply-To: <15c.36233a43.2df12cf7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.190053.0700.>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of James A. Landau
> Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 6:40 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: wordorigins.org
>
>
> Does anyone know anything about "wordorigins.org"?
>
> Their URL is
> http://p066.ezboard.com/bwordoriginsorg
>
> This Web site seems to be quoting liberally and somewhat mysteriously from
> ADS-L .
> Just curious.  I guess they're harmless.
>
>      - Jim Landau
>
>

I know a bit about it. It is my website.

Some of the members of this list are denizens of the discussion group. Many
others are lurkers. Some in the discussion group quote rather liberally from
this list. Most of the quotes either use ADS-L as a source for answers to
particular questions or, in some cases, quoting ADS-L as a means to starting
a discussion on a particular language-related topic.

I don't encourage liberal or extensive quoting from any source, but it's an
open discussion group. If people here object, I'll ask people to refrain
from starting threads with quotes from this list.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun  4 02:03:07 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 22:03:07 -0400
Subject: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
In-Reply-To: <200406031709.1bw2h75ow3NZFjw0@skylark>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.220307.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 3, 2004, at 8:09 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>
> Subject:      Re: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 06:28:57PM -0400, Wilson Gray wrote:
>> I first heard "rip off" used as slang in 1966 in Los Angeles. Three
>> (black) women were downing [= putting down] a fourth woman who,
>> obviously, was not present. One of the women, in the course of her
>> critique, said, "[Whatever her name was] is a stone loser. Why, she
>> even lets guys rip her off in the backseats of cars!"
>> From the context, it was clear that "rip off" meant "have sexual
>> intercourse with."
>> And, in my mind, the term's history was totally obvious. When I was
>> living in Saint Louis in 1950, the phrase, "tear off a piece [of
>> ass],"
>> came into use among black males. (Interestingly enough, the phrase
>> "knock off a piece [of ass]" simultaneously came into use among white
>> males. (Though I lived black, I was educated white. My all-male prep
>> school had 800 white students and seven black ones.)) Sixteen years
>> later, ay walah, *rip off.
>> What bugs me is this. _This is the *one and only time* that I've
>> *ever*
>> heard "rip off" used with a sexual connotation.
>
> Though as a white man I am no doubt unfamiliar with most
> aspects of black culture, I can tell you that _rip off_ 'to
> have sexual intercourse with' or 'to rape' is reasonably well
> attested in the 1960s, esp. in AAVE. We have examples from one
> or two prison memoirs, from a Hell's Angel memoir, and from
> several of the Iceberg Slim books.
>
> The longer phrase _rip off a piece/hunk/etc._ does indeed
> exist, and is attested at least as far back as the 1930s; I
> assume it is the origin.
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
> OED
>

I've already been taken to task wrt to my unfortunate habit of failing
to express myself clearly. For that, I must again beg indulgence. I
have no problem whatsoever wrt the sexual reference of "rip off." My
question is, what could have motivated the total *loss* of the sexual
reading and what could have brought it about so quickly, so that I've
heard "rip off" with the sexual reading used in live speech only one
time by one person, despite the ubiquity of the locution? The word
"screw," for example, retains its sexual reading. Even "jazz" retains
its sexual reading. Why not "rip off"? There's probably no answer to
that question, but it never hurts to ask.
I'll keep my opinion of Iceberg Slim to myself, since it has nothing to
do with his writings. But I do hope that you'll spare me any further
reference to him.


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun  4 02:22:47 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 22:22:47 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries: the Wessely dictionary
In-Reply-To: <200406031651.1bw1ZS4A23NZFmR0@bunting>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.222247.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 3, 2004, at 7:51 PM, Damien Hall wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Damien Hall <halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      dirty words in dictionaries: the Wessely dictionary
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The Wessely dictionary seems to have an interesting history, as far as
> I can
> work out from the BorrowDirect catalogue to which I have access (which
> searches
> the libraries of Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Penn, Princeton
> and
> Yale).
>
> A slightly more complete answer to the dating question is probably to
> be had
> from the Yale catalogue entry:
>
> AUTHOR: Wessely, Joseph Eduard, 1826-1895
> TITLE: Handy dictionary of the Latin and English languages, with an
> appendix of
> Latin geographical, historical and mythological proper names.
> IMPRINT: Philadelphia : D. McKay, [188-?]
>
> But NB the author:  not Ignaz Emanuel Wessely here, but Joseph Eduard,
> born
> fifteen years earlier.
>
> The plot thickens.  I'll end the main part of this message here since,
> for a
> list about English, the rest of it is decidedly OT.  What follows my
> signature
> is the details of other editions of what is possibly the same
> dictionary,
> included only in case someone is interested in getting the possible
> later
> editions and seeing whether 'cunt' has been removed or not.
>
> Damien Hall
> University of Pennsylvania
>
> =================================
>
> There also appears to have been at least one twentieth-century edition
> of the
> same dictionary:
>
> AUTHOR:
> TITLE: Handy dictionary of the Latin and English languages, with an
> appendix of
> Latin, geographical, historical, and mythological proper names.
> IMPRINT: Philadelphia, David McKay Company, 1943.
> (no author cited;  this one is at Brown and Cornell).

Harvard has an edition very similar to the one above. The only
difference between the two is in the imprint: 1938.

-Wilson Gray

>
> Finally, this one may just share a title with the Wessely dictionary,
> though it
> appears to have been published by the same house:
>
> AUTHOR: Woodhouse, S. C. (Sidney Chawner), b. 1871
> TITLE: Handy dictionary of the Latin and English languages / by S.C.
> Woodhouse.
>
> IMPRINT: New York : D. McKay, 1962.
>
> (at Brown and Princeton)
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 02:50:13 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 22:50:13 -0400
Subject: shero
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040602173548.01194930@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.225013.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:36 PM -0400 6/2/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>This is a great word!

...and one presumably necessitated by the taboo-avoidance of "heroine."

(As for Donna Brazile, her name was regularly pronounced like the
quasi-eponymous country's, back during the 2000 campaign.)

Larry

>
>At 10:56 AM 6/2/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>>today's Fresh Air had a long interview with Donna Brazill (Al Gore's
>>campaign manager in 2000).  interesting sociolinguistically, since
>>she's a public and powerful woman who's preserved lots of features of
>>informal southern AAVE: piles of -in', medial glottal stop in "sudden"
>>as well as "didn't", the occasional unmarked 3rd sg present, etc.
>>stunning contrast to, say, Condi Rice.
>>
>>along the way, she talked about the "heroes and sheroes" of the civil
>>rights movement.  "shero" isn't in our archives (though some of you
>>might already have collected it).  there are a fair number of shero
>>sites on the web -- feminist, african american, often both.  a small
>>sample:
>>
>>Sistapower - Shero - Highlighting an African American Shero
>>(http://www.sistapower.com/shero.htm)
>>
>>My Shero: Mature Lesbians Making a Difference
>>(http://www.classicdykes.com/sheroes.htm)
>>
>>Who is YOUR Shero?
>>(http://www.girlsinitiativenetwork.org/shero.htm)
>>
>>Black Women Today - Shero of the Week
>>(http://www.tbwt.com/blackwomentoday/shero.asp)
>>
>>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun  4 02:55:59 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 22:55:59 -0400
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
In-Reply-To: <200406031814.1bw3hM3bs3NZFkl0@cockatoo>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.225559.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 3, 2004, at 9:14 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> On Jun 1, 2004, at 9:33 AM, Dale Coye wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Dale Coye <Dalecoye at AOL.COM>
>>> Subject:      Re: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> This reminds me of the Weavers' song-- not sure of the title but the
>>> first
>>> line is "We sailed on the ship John D."  --they sing "I feel so
>>> break-up, I
>>> wanna go home"   When I heard the Beach Boys version not so long ago
>>> they changed
>>> it to "I feel so broke up" which makes more sense to me-- almost in
>>> the sense
>>> we're talking about in "stove up"-- can anyone enlighten me on "feel
>>> so
>>> break-up?"  why break and not broke?
>>>
>>> DF Coye
>>> The College of NJ
>>
>> "The Ship 'John B.'" is a folksong of Caribbean origin - Jamaican, I
>> think, but maybe not - and uses some form of Caribbean English. Is it
>> true that the Beach Boys sing "broke up"? I've always heard it as
>> "break up." My mistake, I guess.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>
> It's actually "The Sloop John B." rather than "The Ship".  I was
> pretty sure that the standard Beach Boys' recording of the song,
> presumably adapted by Brian Wilson, did indeed have it "I feel so
> break up", not "broke up", but a google search confirms Dale's
> memory, not Wilson's and mine.  I'm puzzled, but resigned.   Maybe
> they actually sang and recorded it both ways on different occasions?
>
> Larry
>

Re: "sloop" vs. "ship." Quite so. It is indeed "sloop" and I knew that.
I should have proofread the post before I sent it. My bad. Re: "break
up" vs. "broke up."
"Break up" is my story and I'm sticking to it.

-Wilson Gray


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 03:35:10 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:35:10 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0406031659060.7969-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.233510.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:00 PM -0400 6/3/04, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
>>  I find this astonishing, absolutely astonishing.
>
>I have in front of me Joseph E. Wessely, Handy Dictionary of the Latin and
>English Languages.  It has no date, but the Yale catalog assigns it the
>dating "188-."  On page 29 appears the following:
>
>cunnus, i, _m. cunt, strumpet._
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
I was going to check for this in the Yale library copy of the
dictionary (hosted, curiously enough, by the Kline Science Library),
but strangely enough, it seems to have been checked out.  ;-)

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 03:50:00 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:50:00 -0400
Subject: dirty words in                dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <8d.c92f715.2df1242c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.235000.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I have only seen IRRUMATION used in English in the sense of 'present the
>penis or breast for someone to suck'. This is a very handy word to
>have available,
>since there is no other word (that I can think of) that means that! Of
>course, it is not a word that one normally has occasion to use.
>
>I have never seen IRRUMATE used in English to mean 'fuck the mouth', but
>maybe I've just missed it.
>
>I don't find either IRRUMATE or IRRUMATION in any of the English dictionaries
>that are on my desk at the moment.

There are "about 46" hits for _irrrumate_ on google, some of which
are from (admittedly obscure) lexicons.  Three on Nexis, including
this delightful excerpt from a Times (of London) book review:

November 1, 1990, Thursday
HEADLINE: Titter ye not, O Aves Spinae
BYLINE: Peter Jones

THE FIRST MAN IN ROME, By Colleen McCullough, Century, Pounds 14.95.


...But filing-cabinets are not literature. The 100-page index that
accompanies the work, with its glossary of technical terms, maps, and
guides to pronunciation (pilum: pee-loom) reinforces the point. This,
she says, is evidence of her ''scholarship''; but who cares about her
''scholarship''? She is writing a novel, not a text-book (and she
thinks that a fellator irrumates and vice-versa, which does not give
one much confidence in her ''scholarship'' either).

larry


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun  4 03:54:50 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:54:50 -0400
Subject: dirty words in                dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <p0432040ebce5a0904d0e@[130.132.231.254]>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.235450.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 11:50:00PM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> November 1, 1990, Thursday
> HEADLINE: Titter ye not, O Aves Spinae
> BYLINE: Peter Jones
>
> THE FIRST MAN IN ROME, By Colleen McCullough, Century, Pounds 14.95.
>
>
> ...But filing-cabinets are not literature. The 100-page index that
> accompanies the work, with its glossary of technical terms, maps, and
> guides to pronunciation (pilum: pee-loom) reinforces the point. This,
> she says, is evidence of her ''scholarship''; but who cares about her
> ''scholarship''? She is writing a novel, not a text-book (and she
> thinks that a fellator irrumates and vice-versa, which does not give
> one much confidence in her ''scholarship'' either).

Glorious.

Jesse Sheidlower


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 03:58:47 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:58:47 -0400
Subject: "Sometimes you eat the bear..." (1904); "Tools of Ignorance"
In-Reply-To: <a06020402bce5691651cf@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.235847.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       "Yerkes, Susan" <SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET>
>>Subject:      Re: "Sometimes you eat the bear..." (1904); "Tools of
>>Ignorance"
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>How about "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the
>>fly/bug"? Surely that's a much later, but parallel phrase.
>
>I've heard more frequently, "Sometimes you're the bird, sometimes
>you're the statue."  I don't remember when I first heard it, though.
>
Ah, but the windshield-vs.-bug pair was popularized by a country
song, which I've heard in a number of versions but was apparently
penned by Marc Knopfler.  The chorus (containing another instance of
the opposition in question):

Sometimes you're the windshield
Sometimes you're the bug
Sometimes it all comes together baby
Sometimes you're just a fool in love
Sometimes you're the Louisville Slugger
Sometimes you're the ball
Sometimes it all comes together
Sometimes you're gonna lose it all

Larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun  4 04:30:33 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 00:30:33 -0400
Subject: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
In-Reply-To: <20040604000912.GB10885@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.003033.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What about these senses of "rip off"?

(1)

"I'll rip off a quick letter to the editor."
"He ripped off a 20-page essay over the weekend."

(2)

"The team ripped off three big victories."
"He ripped of a 40-yard run."
"They ripped off a lot of yardage."
"We ripped off two touchdowns in the fourth quarter."

I can't find these in my dictionaries.

These are quite familiar (aren't they?), and much older than "rip off" =
"steal"/"rob"/etc., I think (both groups represented from ca. 1920 on brief
search).

Of course they're not as glamorous (no sex or crime), but shouldn't they be
in the slang dictionaries?

What are the standard equivalents of "rip off" in these cases, and how are
the different "rip off" verbs related?

Isn't "rip off a touchdown" somewhat analogous to "rip off a piece of
[whatever that was]"? (^_^)

There is also

(3)

"He ripped off a loud fart."
"He ripped off a series of curses."

The groupings are according to my casual impression.

-- Doug Wilson


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 04:34:43 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 00:34:43 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040602204423.02f79eb0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.003443.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:58 PM -0400 6/2/04, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>(Can anyone
>>>  think of any other nontechnical terms - not initialisms like
>>>  "TGIF" -  that have acronymic origins?)
>
>I guess it depends on what's labeled "technical". There's "awol", there's
>"scuba", there's "moped" if you loosen up the definition of "acronym", some
>more.
>
>But there aren't too many in conventional use really.
>
>I doubt that "snafu" is an 'honest' acronym etymologically (which would
>require that there was a previously existing expression "situation normal
>..."): likely the word was invented to imitate "snag", "snarl", etc., and
>then assigned an expansion as an imaginary origin: but of course I could be
>wrong again.
>
Given "fubar" as well, though, and several other acronyms of the same
sort, all from military argot (Jesse cites a few in his _F Word_),
another possibility is that the acronym and phrase came into being
simultaneously.  I doubt that people were saying "snafu" and "fubar"
for a while, and then realized that, hey, those letters can be made
to stand for the initials of "situation normal all fucked up" and
"fucked up beyond all recognition" respectively!  There are indeed
bac(k)ronyms of this sort--the PATRIOT Act is a recent example, or
SPECTRE from the old James Bond books, or (I assume) the WAVES--but I
don't think "snafu" is likely to be among them, along I wouldn't
object to the claim that its popularity may have owed something to
the "snag"/"snarl" connection Doug mentions.

Larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun  4 06:44:34 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 02:44:34 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <p04320414bce5aa88a4ae@[130.132.231.254]>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.024434.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Given "fubar" as well, though, and several other acronyms of the same
>sort, all from military argot (Jesse cites a few in his _F Word_),
>another possibility is that the acronym and phrase came into being
>simultaneously.

True.

However "fubar"/"foo-bar" seems to be something of a special case, with a
bag of worms attached:

http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3092.html

... I haven't made any attempt to sort this out. I do doubt "fubar" as a
genuine acronym because the supposed expansion includes the word "all"
which doesn't really belong.

>I doubt that people were saying "snafu" and "fubar"
>for a while, and then realized that, hey, those letters can be made
>to stand for the initials of "situation normal all fucked up" and
>"fucked up beyond all recognition" respectively!

I think this exact scenario is plausible for "snafu"! But the "while" might
have been only an hour or a week. Suppose (just as a random example)
somebody made a casual alteration of "snaffle" (in the sense
"delay"/"check") to "snaffoo": "Snaffooed by those idiots at the shipyard
again! These nuts don't match those bolts and we can't do anything!" [Or
assume any other origin of the spoken word, including the possibility of a
genuine but different acronym.] Then after a "while" somebody asks, "What
is this word 'snaffoo' that everybody is using around here lately?" and
somebody makes up an acronym-expansion and the rest is history. Given a
military milieu, the "fu" might have sort of automatically implied "f---ed
up" from the first time it was uttered, of course. The "situation normal"
part has the smell of a backronym. I could be wrong, of course.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  4 07:20:53 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 03:20:53 EDT
Subject: Oreo Ice Cream (1975); "But I know what I like"(1877); Terroir;
 Cat & Gooseberry
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.032053.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I attended a wine and cheese tasting at Agata & Valentina at First Avenue
and 79th Street.  It's by http://epicurean.sturman.com.  The fabulous
wine-tasting woman, Sheri Sauter, MW, CWE (featured in FORTUNE magazine last week),
refused to marry me.
   I got home, got access to Proquest Historical Newspapers through SABR,
watched THE DAILY SHOW at the same time, nodded off, and woke up to find that I
had access to all of ProQuest!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
OREO COOKIE ICE CREAM

   Emack and Bolio's ice cream has opened up at East 81st Street and First
Avenue (near Agata & Valentina).  I don't know if the revised OED is entering
"OREO," but see the ADS-L archives for that name.  Emack and Bolio's takes
credit for inventing Oreo cookie ice cream.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.emackandbolios.com/icecream2.htm
"The Original" Oreo Cookie-Invented by us in 1975.  The most popular flavor
of
      the 80s with chunks of Oreo cookie in a vanilla/Oreao base.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"BUT I KNOW WHAT I LIKE"

   Sheri Sauter ("that wine woman") told us that wine tasting is like art--"I
don't know much about art, but I know what I like."
   I revisited the phrase and found a bit earlier than I'd posted.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
    1.  Article 2 -- No Title
Scribner's Monthly (1870-1881). New York: Feb 1877. Vol. VOL. XIII., Iss. No.
4.; p. 562 (2 pages)
Second page:  WHEN a person prefaces his opinion of a picture or of a piece
of music, with this formula,--"I don't profess to know anything about art (or
music), but I know what I like,"--then look out for dogmatism of the most
flagrant sort.  If "what I like" is different from what you like, your liking is
ser down forthwith as either affectation, or the result of some kind of personal
and temporary influence.

    2.  THE RISE OF SILAS LAPHAM.
BY W. D. HOWELLS, Author of "Venetian Life," "A Chance Acquaintance," "A
Modern Instance," "A Woman's Reason," etc.. Century Illustrated Magazine
(1881-1906). New York: Apr 1885. Vol. VOL. XXIX., Iss. No. 6.; p. 858 (15 pages)

    3.  NEW YORK AFTER PARIS.
W C BROWNELL. New Princeton Review (1886-1888). New York: Jul 1888. p. 80 (15
pages)

    4.  Wanted--A Standard of Criticism.
The Musical Visitor, a Magazine of Musical Literature and Music (1883-1897).
Cincinnati: Jun 1892. Vol. 21, Iss. 6; p. 156 (2 pages)
Second page:  I do not know much about music, says a friend, but I know what
I like.  Is not this "liking" about all that any one can judge from?

    5.  THE BASES OF APPRECIATION IN ART.
EDWARD E. HALE, JR.. a Semi - monthly Journal of Literary Criticism,
Discussion, and Information (1880-1929). Sep 16, 1895. Vol. Volume XIX., Iss. No.
222.; p. 141 (3 pages)
First page:  In literature, in painting, and elsewhere, the generally
accepted dictum is, "I don't know anything about the rules of art, but I know what I
like," with which is coupled a firm determination not to like anything that
one doesn;t want to of one;s own mere motion, and, indeed, not to submit to any
interference that in any respect smacks of thought or knowledge of the matter
in hand.


)PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
IN THE INTEREST OF ART.; Many Artists Dine at the Reform Club and Talk of
Beautifying the City.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 23, 1898. p. 5 (1
page) :
   J. Q. A. Ward, President of the National Sculpture Society, reviewed the
career of the Commission of Parks and amused his hearers by allusions to the
monuments sought to be foisted on the city by well-meaning persons who confessed
that they did not know much about art, but "knew what they liked."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TERROIR

TERROIR--523,000 Google hits, 9,900 Google Groups hits
TERROIR ("English only" hits)--67,000 Google hits, 9,900 Google Groups hits

   Sheri Sauter (the wine woman who's marrying some lucky guy from North
Carolina and moving back to Duke) mentioned this word.  It seems quite popular in
the wine world and on the internet, but the OED (always miserable on food and
drink) declares it obscure and rare.


(OED)
terroir
Obs. rare.   a. = TERRITORY1.    b. Soil.
  1483 CAXTON Gold. Leg. 18/2 For to berye it in the terroir of the cyte of
Losane. 1660 Charac. Italy 83 Italy is the Garden of Europe, the Terroir being
gentle and copious.

------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
CAT'S PEE ON A GOOSEBERRY BUSH

CAT + GOOSEBERRY BUSH--613 Google hits, 51 Google Groups hits

   Sheri Sauter also gave a brief mention about "cat's pee on a gooseberry
bush."


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Where to start?
... Broadbent often talks of mango chutney, Parker of "black fruits", and
Jancis Robinson will be forever famous for her "cat's pee on a wild gooseberry
bush". ...
alt.food.wine - Sep 28, 2001 by Elpaninaro - View Thread (14 articles)

Re: Great Haggis Recipes
There was a New Zealand chardonnay available in Britain a while back called "
Cat's Piss on a Gooseberry Bush", with a slightly Seussian picture of a cat on
the ...
alt.slack - Dec 18, 1996 by TechnoGoddess Jools - View Thread (30 articles)

Re: Carf Thefts - umra competition
... indeed, there is a wine hailing from New Zealand which refuses to faff
around with mock-Maori and entitles itself unashamedly "Cat's Pee On A
Gooseberry Bush". ...
uk.media.radio.archers - Oct 13, 1999 by Nick Leverton - View Thread (11
articles)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Gooseberries and a Cat.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 25, 1904. p. S3 (1
page)
>From Collier's.
   Not long ago officials of the Department of Agriculture were much amused
by a letter sent the department by an occasional correspondent in Virginia.
   Among other things, the writer hastened to advise Secretary Wilson to this
effect:
   "My wife had a Tame cat that dyd.  Being a Tortureshell and a Grate
faverit, we had the same berred in the Gardin, and for the enrichment of the soil I
had the Carkis deposited under the roots of a Gooseberry Bush.  (The Frute
being up to then of the smooth variety.)  But the next Seson's Frutem after the
Cat was berred, the Gooseberry was all Hairy--and more Remarkable, the
Catapilers of the Same Bush was All of said Hairy description."

    2.  Gooseberries and a Cat.
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 28, 1904. p.
4 (1 page)

    3.  Day By Day Story of the Experirmental Farms; Quadruplet Lambs.
Frank Ridgway. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 15,
1936. p. 11 (1 page)

    4.  Westward Ho!; TREE WAGON. By Evelyn Sibley Lampman. Illustrated by
Robert Frankenberg. 251 pp. New York: Doubleday & Co. $2.75. For Ages 9 to 12.
ROSE FRIEDMAN.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 3,
1954. p. BR22 (1 page)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIOVE.COM)
Daily Review - 6/17/1894
...s torn CAT died and was burled under a GOOSEBERRY BUSH.The next crop of..
Decatur, Illinois Sunday, June 17, 1894  647 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CHICAGO TRIBUNE WEATHER GUY DOES IT AGAIN

   I just checked again, with my unexpected ProQuest database access.  He's
now answered this question wrong twice within three months.
   Ten years ago, I first wrote to the Chicago Tribune.  This is never gonna
end!


(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
ASK TOM WHY:[Chicagoland Final , CN Edition]
Tom Skilling. Chicago Tribune. Chicago, Ill.:  May 24, 2004.  pg. 8

Abstract (Article Summary)
It's just the politics. Chicago's "Windy City" nickname was coined in New
York City, and it has no weather connection. In 1893, New York Sun editor Charles
Dana, having grown weary of hearing Chicago politicians boast of the huge
success of Chicago's 1893 World's Columbian Exposition, editorially dubbed
Chicago "that Windy City."


Full Text (201   words)
Copyright 2004 by the Chicago Tribune)


WEATHER REPORT.

Dear Tom,

Since moving to Naperville in December, I have noticed many windy days. My
husband says it is not any more windy here than in any other region. I disagree.
He says the phrase "the Windy City" is the only reason I think this. He
believes it's because of the politicians, and I say it's because of the politics
and the wind.

Dahlia Tusa, Naperville, Ill.

Dear Dahlia,

It's just the politics. Chicago's "Windy City" nickname was coined in New
York City, and it has no weather connection. In 1893, New York Sun editor Charles
Dana, having grown weary of hearing Chicago politicians boast of the huge
success of Chicago's 1893 World's Columbian Exposition, editorially dubbed
Chicago "that Windy City."

Wind records from 255 U.S. cities indicate that 75 cities have higher average
winds than Chicago's 10.4 m.p.h.

----------

Tom Skilling is chief meteorologist at WGN-TV. His forecasts can be seen
Monday through Friday on WGN-TV News at noon and 9 p.m.

Write to: ASK TOM WHY, 2501 Bradley Pl., Chicago, IL 60618 or
asktomwhy at wgntv.com (Mail volume precludes personal response.)

WGN-TV meteorologists Steve Kahn, Richard Koeneman and Paul Dailey plus
weather producer Bill Snyder contribute to this page.


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Jun  4 11:57:13 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 07:57:13 -0400
Subject: "Pop-Pop" revisited
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.075713.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Somehow I missed the original--so, as quoted by James A. Landau:

Joan Houston Hall wrote:

: There's a nice map in Volume IV of DARE showing "pop-pop" to be found
: chiefly in PA, NJ, DE, MD.

I'm from Southern Maryland, and "pop-pop" is, for me, a *great*-grandfather
(I had three living ones during my childhood). "Granddaddy" is my word for a
grandfather.

For completeness, my word for a grandmother is "grandmommy" (though the
younger of my sisters, in an act of what she explicitly describes as
linguistic rebellion, calls her "grandmama"), and my ggmothers were all
"granny".

Interestingly, my ggfathers were differentiated by last name (with the one
who lived 200 feet down the road being unmarked by name), while my
ggmothers, gmothers, and gfathers were not differentiated with names at all.
(Relationship+first name was the system used for most of my relatives,
except cousins, who were first name only.)

TMI or an interesting linguistic note? Y'all be the judges...

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Jun  4 13:08:24 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 09:08:24 -0400
Subject: dirty words in                dictionaries
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.090824.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > ...But filing-cabinets are not literature. The 100-page index that
> > accompanies the work, with its glossary of technical terms,
> maps, and
> > guides to pronunciation (pilum: pee-loom) reinforces the point.
> This,> she says, is evidence of her ''scholarship''; but who cares
> about her
> > ''scholarship''? She is writing a novel, not a text-book (and she
> > thinks that a fellator irrumates and vice-versa, which does not give
> > one much confidence in her ''scholarship'' either).
>

The standards of scholarship at TLS are very high, indeed.

Ron Butters states:

"I have never seen IRRUMATE used in English to mean 'fuck the mouth', but
maybe I've just missed it.
"I don't find either IRRUMATE or IRRUMATION in any of the English dictionaries that are on my desk at the moment."

As I recall, Gershom Legman was very insistent on the difference between fellation and irrumation; probably in his books on dirty jokes (all 1400 pages) but he was inclined to repeat his whimwham, so it may be in several places there and in some of his other books as well.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun  4 13:16:31 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 09:16:31 -0400
Subject: dirty words in                dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <18ca15418ce498.18ce49818ca154@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.091631.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 09:08:24AM -0400, George Thompson wrote:
>
>  As I recall, Gershom Legman was very insistent on the
> difference between fellation and irrumation; probably in his
> books on dirty jokes (all 1400 pages) but he was inclined to
> repeat his whimwham, so it may be in several places there
> and in some of his other books as well.

The earliest Legman reference to this is likely to be:

_Fellation_ and _irrumation_ are usually given a foreign sound
by leaving off the "n" and putting them in italics or
quotation marks; and although these two terms refer to
exactly opposite practices, they are almost universally
believe to be synonymous. [etc.]

-- G. Legman, "The Language of Homosexuality", in G. W.
Henry _Sex Variants_ II 1151.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  4 13:28:11 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 09:28:11 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20The=20f-word?=
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.092811.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fuck is also apparently a German family name--I remember that there was a
German linguists writing in the 1970s whose name was Fuck. So far as I know, he
never published anything jointly with another scholar (the way, e.g., Postal
and Stamp once did). I have no idea whether or not the German Fuck is related to
fulcher.

In a message dated 6/3/04 9:37:11 PM, douglas at NB.NET writes:


> >The "John le Fucker" reference first appears in Carl Buck's 1949
> >Indo-European dictionary. Buck does not supply a citation as to where he
> >found the name. No one has subsequently found the manuscript in which it is
> >alleged to have appeared.
> >
> >If the citation is genuine and not an error, it is most likely a spelling
> >variant of "fulcher," meaning soldier.
>
> Oxford "Dictionary of English Surnames", under "Fulcher" (with many
> spelling variants):
>
> "... Nicholas Fuker' 1234 ... Warin Fucher 1235 ... John Foucher' 1242 ...
> from OFr Foucher, Fouquier, from OG Fulchar, Fulcher 'people-army'."
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun  4 14:06:30 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:06:30 -0400
Subject: Job: Assistant Editor, Oxford English Dictionary
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.100630.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, we're hiring again. If you or any of your students might be
interested in working for the OED in New York, application info
can be found here:

http://www.us.oup.com/assistandeditoroed/?view=usa

The meat of the posting is:

------
Assistant Editor, Oxford English Dictionary

LOCATION: New York, NY

Job Summary:

Writing and editing North American English entries for the Oxford English Dictionary.

Responsibilities/Duties:

    * Writing new entries for historical and modern American English, Canadian English, and Caribbean English terms.
    * Editing existing OED entries for such terms.
    * Reviewing general OED text to ensure proper coverage of American English
    * Conducting or supervising research, in libraries or online.
    * Recruiting and managing contributors to the OED's North American Reading Program.
    * Performing general administrative duties in the department.

Qualifications:

BA in the humanities (especially English); extremely high
level of attention to detail; clear and elegant writing style;
strong knowledge of American history, literature and culture.
-------

Please do not apply to me directly, but if you know me you should
say so (or have students say so) in the cover letter.

Best,

Jesse Sheidlower
Oxford English Dictionary


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Jun  4 14:22:02 2004
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 15:22:02 +0100
Subject: Port Out, Starboard Home
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.152202.0100.>

My book on folk etymology is to be published in the UK under this
title by Penguin on 1 July. Several members of this list were very
helpful, both directly and through the results of their research,
while I was writing it, among them Fred Shapiro, Jesse Sheidlower,
Laurence Horn, Frank Abate, Barry Popik and Gerald Cohen. They have
been suitably acknowledged, both in the introduction and where
appropriate in the text. The real stories about the Big Apple, hot
dog, jazz, shyster, smart Alec, Windy City, and many other iconic
etymythologies are all there.

Members of this list will, I hope, forgive my boasting a little about
the book, not least because it shows signs of becoming successful.
The British newspaper, the Daily Telegraph, started serialising the
book last Saturday, an unusual thing for a book on language. The
first article is now on the Telegraph's Web site -  you can get to it
using my redirection URL of http://quinion.com?M97Q . (If you find
any errors, it's too late to do anything about them ...)

The book is to be published in the USA in October by the Smithsonian
Institution Press under the title "Ballyhoo, Buckaroo, and Spuds".

End of puff!

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Jun  4 14:29:32 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:29:32 -0400
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
In-Reply-To: <B4E98446-B5D2-11D8-8CAE-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.102932.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>On Jun 3, 2004, at 9:14 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>> Subject:      Re: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>>> On Jun 1, 2004, at 9:33 AM, Dale Coye wrote:
>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster:       Dale Coye <Dalecoye at AOL.COM>
>>>> Subject:      Re: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --
>>>> --------
>>>>
>>>> This reminds me of the Weavers' song-- not sure of the title but the
>>>> first
>>>> line is "We sailed on the ship John D."  --they sing "I feel so
>>>> break-up, I
>>>> wanna go home"   When I heard the Beach Boys version not so long ago
>>>> they changed
>>>> it to "I feel so broke up" which makes more sense to me-- almost in
>>>> the sense
>>>> we're talking about in "stove up"-- can anyone enlighten me on "feel
>>>> so
>>>> break-up?"  why break and not broke?
>>>>
>>>> DF Coye
>>>> The College of NJ
>>>
>>> "The Ship 'John B.'" is a folksong of Caribbean origin - Jamaican, I
>>> think, but maybe not - and uses some form of Caribbean English. Is it
>>> true that the Beach Boys sing "broke up"? I've always heard it as
>>> "break up." My mistake, I guess.
>>>
>>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>> It's actually "The Sloop John B." rather than "The Ship".  I was
>> pretty sure that the standard Beach Boys' recording of the song,
>> presumably adapted by Brian Wilson, did indeed have it "I feel so
>> break up", not "broke up", but a google search confirms Dale's
>> memory, not Wilson's and mine.  I'm puzzled, but resigned.   Maybe
>> they actually sang and recorded it both ways on different occasions?
>>
>> Larry
>>
>
>Re: "sloop" vs. "ship." Quite so. It is indeed "sloop" and I knew that.
>I should have proofread the post before I sent it. My bad. Re: "break
>up" vs. "broke up."
>"Break up" is my story and I'm sticking to it.
>
>-Wilson Gray
~~~~~~~~~
"Break up" is indeed the Weavers' version. The Weavers' Songbook gives the
info: "Words & music adapted by Lee Hays from a collection by Carl
Sandburg."
I haven't heard the Beach Boys version.
A. Murie


A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 14:59:08 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:59:08 -0400
Subject: dirty words in                dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <20040604131631.GA8020@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.105908.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:16 AM -0400 6/4/04, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 09:08:24AM -0400, George Thompson wrote:
>>
>>   As I recall, Gershom Legman was very insistent on the
>>  difference between fellation and irrumation; probably in his
>>  books on dirty jokes (all 1400 pages) but he was inclined to
>>  repeat his whimwham, so it may be in several places there
>>  and in some of his other books as well.
>
>The earliest Legman reference to this is likely to be:
>
>_Fellation_ and _irrumation_ are usually given a foreign sound
>by leaving off the "n" and putting them in italics or
>quotation marks; and although these two terms refer to
>exactly opposite practices, they are almost universally
>believe to be synonymous. [etc.]
>
>-- G. Legman, "The Language of Homosexuality", in G. W.
>Henry _Sex Variants_ II 1151.

While not normally a prescriptivist, I think it important to maintain
the distinction in the classical form.  The examples trotted out to
illustrate the converse opposition (or what Aristotle called
correlation) in lexical semantics have grown stale from overuse
(double/half, parent/child, own/belong to, fear/frighten, taller
than/shorter than), and I think it would be useful to illustrate the
relation for our students by citing fellate/irrumate.

Larry


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun  4 15:01:30 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:01:30 -0500
Subject: Acronyms (was: Phat(t), etc)
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.100130.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another one that gets pronounced as a word:
WYSIWYG - wizzywig
What You See Is What You Get


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 15:05:59 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 11:05:59 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <20040604000203.GA10885@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.110559.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> Yes. I'd like to see how it defines "irrumare", or any of its
> relatives (irrumatio, irrumator). This word, which means 'to
>
> P.S. "futuere" might be another one worth checking, of course.

Since I am preventing Larry Horn from checking by holding on to Yale's
copy, I guess I'm obligated to look.  Neither of these two terms is
included in the Wessely dictionary, unfortunately.  The appearance of
"cunt" may be an isolated instance of taboo English vocabulary creeping
in.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 15:25:42 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 11:25:42 -0400
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
In-Reply-To: <l03130300bce636b1bcbd@[12.107.143.157]>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.112542.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:29 AM -0400 6/4/04, sagehen wrote:
>~~~~~~~~~
>"Break up" is indeed the Weavers' version.

and, if at least one web site is to be believed, also the Kingston
Trio's, which I may have mentally blended with the Beach Boys',
assuming the latter really did sing "broke up", as it now appears.

larry

>The Weavers' Songbook gives the
>info: "Words & music adapted by Lee Hays from a collection by Carl
>Sandburg."
>I haven't heard the Beach Boys version.
>A. Murie
>
>
>A&M Murie
>N. Bangor NY
>sagehen at westelcom.com


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jun  4 15:34:32 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 08:34:32 -0700
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
In-Reply-To: <p04320408bce644889837@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.083432.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 4, 2004, at 8:25 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> At 10:29 AM -0400 6/4/04, sagehen wrote:
>> ~~~~~~~~~
>> "Break up" is indeed the Weavers' version.
>
> and, if at least one web site is to be believed, also the Kingston
> Trio's, which I may have mentally blended with the Beach Boys',
> assuming the latter really did sing "broke up", as it now appears.

the Beach Boys' version, from Lyrics Depot:

  We come on the sloop John B
My grandfather and me
Around Nassau town we did roam
Drinking all night
Got into a fight
Well I feel so broke up
I want to go home

So hoist up the John B's sail
See how the mainsail sets
Call for the Captain ashore
Let me go home, let me go home
I wanna go home, yeah yeah
Well I feel so broke up
I wanna go home

The first mate he got drunk
And broke in the Cap'n's trunk
The constable had to come and take him away
Sheriff John Stone
Why don't you leave me alone, yeah yeah
Well I feel so broke up I wanna go home

So hoist up the John B's sail
See how the mainsail sets
Call for the Captain ashore
Let me go home, let me go home
I wanna go home, let me go home
Why don't you let me go home
(Hoist up the John B's sail)
Hoist up the John B
I feel so broke up I wanna go home
Let me go home

The poor cook he caught the fits
And threw away all my grits
And then he took and he ate up all of my corn
Let me go home
Why don't they let me go home
This is the worst trip I've ever been on

So hoist up the John B's sail
See how the mainsail sets
Call for the Captain ashore
Let me go home, let me go home
I wanna go home, let me go home
Why don't you let me go home


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 15:41:22 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 11:41:22 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <OCEFKEEBCCDKPHIMICJGIEKBCJAA.dave@wilton.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.114122.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:07 PM -0700 6/2/04, Dave Wilton wrote:
>
>The other explanation is that "snafu," and its less well-known variants like
>"tarfu," arose in the military--an environment given to coining technical
>acronyms. In fact, the number of "snafu" variants that have come out of WWII
>point to the conclusion that the coinages were a joke about the army's
>penchant for acronyms.
>

That's what I've always assumed about "snafu", "fubar", and their
families; indeed, this penchant partly explains why the usual story
on the origin of "jeep" as an acronym (< General Purpose vehicle) has
had such a long and successful life, despite the fact that in this
case it appears to be an etymythology (from the evidence discussed in
earlier threads on the list).  A parallel case to "snafu" is the
example of "wizzywig" < What You See Is What You Get, mentioned
elsewhere, which plays off the prevalence of acronyms (albeit often
pronounced as initialisms) in technical writing.  WYSIWIG is a
pseudo-techie acronym in the same way that SNAFU is a
pseudo-military/governmental/bureaucratic one.  Another possible
candidate is GOMER (which, as some here have speculated, may not
actually have arisen as an acronym of "Get Out of My Emergency Room").

larry


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jun  4 15:42:19 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 08:42:19 -0700
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
In-Reply-To: <l03130300bce636b1bcbd@[12.107.143.157]>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.084219.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 4, 2004, at 7:29 AM, A. Murie wrote:

> ...The Weavers' Songbook gives the info: "Words & music adapted by Lee
> Hays from a collection by Carl Sandburg."

American Song Bag (1927).  apparently there's a version in alan lomax's
Folk Songs of North-America (1960).

the song appears under various titles:
   The Wreck of the John B
   The Wreck of the Sloop John B
   Sloop John B
   The John B's Sails


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun  4 16:03:02 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 11:03:02 -0500
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.110302.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> There are indeed
> bac(k)ronyms of this sort--the PATRIOT Act is a recent
> example, or SPECTRE from the old James Bond books, or (I
> assume) the WAVES. . . .

The U.S. Army Missile Command (my employer) is full of these
backronyms --
PATRIOT Missile: Phased Array Tracking Radar Intercept On Target
ATACMS Missile: ("Attack 'ems") Army Tactical Missile System
BAT Submunition:  Brilliant AnTiarmor Submunition (this one is
awkward, but was contrived because the sensor on the BAT is an
acoustic one, like the mammal).
HAWK Missile:  Homing All the Way Killer

and the other services:
HARM  High speed Anti Radiation Missile
ALARM   Air Launched Anti Radiation Missile


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Jun  4 19:44:11 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 15:44:11 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040604021606.02f12b70@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.154411.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Doug Wilson writes:
>  The "situation normal"
>part has the smell of a backronym. I could be wrong, of course.
>
>--
It doesn't seem too unlikely to me that "situation normal" was an actual
expression in use, though whether as /legitimate/ military jargon or
mocking slang I wouldn't guess.  The army classified things with pretty
hilarious labels, from a native English-speaking POV.  We had for years
kicking about among our belongings an OD cloth object with a label  which
read "Cover Bag Sleeping Mountain," a relic of my partner's WWII service.
If he is a representative example,  both "snafu" & "fubar" were used by GIs
('43-'45) in the understanding that they were indeed acronyms.
A. Murie


A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Jun  4 20:40:56 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 16:40:56 -0400
Subject: Phat,&c
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.164056.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

P.S.
SOP (standard operating procedure), OTOH, was not spoken as "sop" but
spelled out, "ESS OH PEE."  (like the  PEE ESS, above)
A. Murie

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun  4 21:12:21 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 17:12:21 -0400
Subject: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
In-Reply-To: <20040604040039.DA646228D5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.171221.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>
sez


        >>>


The longer phrase _rip off a piece/hunk/etc._ does indeed
exist, and is attested at least as far back as the 1930s; I
assume it is the origin.

        <<<

I remember a similar term from the classic collection of Appalachian
folklore _Pissing in the Snow_, in a story which may be called something
like "The Decoy". Without giving away the point of the story, after a couple
has cheerfully had sex, they talk a bit, and then "they tore off another
hunk".  I can't be more precise because I'm quoting from memory.

Presumably the original metaphor was tearing off another hunk from a loaf of
bread or something similar.

-- Mark Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun  4 21:16:34 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 17:16:34 -0400
Subject: rip off
In-Reply-To: <20040604040039.DA646228D5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.171634.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray:



        >>>

I've already been taken to task wrt to my unfortunate habit of failing
to express myself clearly. For that, I must again beg indulgence. I
have no problem whatsoever wrt the sexual reference of "rip off." My
question is, what could have motivated the total *loss* of the sexual
reading and what could have brought it about so quickly, so that I've
heard "rip off" with the sexual reading used in live speech only one
time by one person, despite the ubiquity of the locution? The word
"screw," for example, retains its sexual reading. Even "jazz" retains
its sexual reading. Why not "rip off"? There's probably no answer to
that question, but it never hurts to ask.

        <<<

what's the basis For assuming that it originally had a sexual reading and
then lost it? isn't it equally likely that what you heard was a one-time
usage or a usage derived from the meaning of 'steal; rob'?

-- Mark Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  4 21:47:57 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 17:47:57 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20Re:=20dirty=20words=20in=A0dictionaries?=
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.174757.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/4/04 10:59:31 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:


> I think it would be useful to illustrate the
> relation for our students by citing fellate/irrumate
>

citing, yes

sighting or (especially) site-ing, no


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Jun  5 00:00:00 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 20:00:00 -0400
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.200000.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Carl Sandburg's "American Songbag" version was "break up."  I checked in a
version on Amazon "inside the book."

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"


> On Jun 4, 2004, at 7:29 AM, A. Murie wrote:
>
> > ...The Weavers' Songbook gives the info: "Words & music adapted by Lee
> > Hays from a collection by Carl Sandburg."
>
> American Song Bag (1927).  apparently there's a version in alan lomax's
> Folk Songs of North-America (1960).
>
> the song appears under various titles:
>    The Wreck of the John B
>    The Wreck of the Sloop John B
>    Sloop John B
>    The John B's Sails
>


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Jun  5 00:20:50 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 17:20:50 -0700
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
In-Reply-To: <003101c44a90$0bf506d0$3d611941@sam>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.172050.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 4, 2004, at 5:00 PM, Sam Clements wrote:

> Carl Sandburg's "American Songbag" version was "break up."  I checked
> in a version on Amazon "inside the book."

i'd be interested in hearing the recording lomax made in jamaica in the
30s.  like, was there actually a [z] in "Cap'n's trunk"?  a [v] in
"I've ever been on"?  a [t] (or glottal stop) in "don't"?

the Beach Boys' printed lyrics have "want to" on its first occurrence,
but "wanna" thereafter.  hmmm...  they also have "let me (go home)" all
the way through, and i *think* that's right for the version they sang,
but there might have been some instances of "lemme" in the jamaican
version.

such details vary from performance to performance, of course.

arnold


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun  5 03:28:42 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 23:28:42 -0400
Subject: rip off
In-Reply-To: <200406041416.1bwm3i1TR3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.232842.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 4, 2004, at 5:16 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: rip off
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson Gray:
>
>
>
>>>>
>
> I've already been taken to task wrt to my unfortunate habit of failing
> to express myself clearly. For that, I must again beg indulgence. I
> have no problem whatsoever wrt the sexual reference of "rip off." My
> question is, what could have motivated the total *loss* of the sexual
> reading and what could have brought it about so quickly, so that I've
> heard "rip off" with the sexual reading used in live speech only one
> time by one person, despite the ubiquity of the locution? The word
> "screw," for example, retains its sexual reading. Even "jazz" retains
> its sexual reading. Why not "rip off"? There's probably no answer to
> that question, but it never hurts to ask.
>
>         <<<
>
> what's the basis For assuming that it originally had a sexual reading
> and
> then lost it? isn't it equally likely that what you heard was a
> one-time
> usage or a usage derived from the meaning of 'steal; rob'?
>
> -- Mark Mandel
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>
Yes, I agree, in general, though I doubt the possibility of a
connection of "steal" with "have sexual intercourse" in BE. There's no
glory in copping a taste of strange through the use of alcohol or some
other drug.
It could also have been an in-group usage among the women. They weren't
people with whom I ordinarily consorted, only friends of a friend. The
fact that I never heard the sexual usage again could very well stem
merely from the fact that I was never again in the presence of these
particular women.
Perhaps this just a case of not seeing the forest for the trees.

-Wilson Gray


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun  5 04:35:33 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 00:35:33 -0400
Subject: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
In-Reply-To: <200406041412.1bwlZe2Wh3NZFlr0@killdeer>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.003533.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 4, 2004, at 5:12 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>
> sez
>
>
>>>>
>
>
> The longer phrase _rip off a piece/hunk/etc._ does indeed
> exist, and is attested at least as far back as the 1930s; I
> assume it is the origin.
>
>         <<<
>
> I remember a similar term from the classic collection of Appalachian
> folklore _Pissing in the Snow_, in a story which may be called
> something
> like "The Decoy". Without giving away the point of the story, after a
> couple
> has cheerfully had sex, they talk a bit, and then "they tore off
> another
> hunk".  I can't be more precise because I'm quoting from memory.
>
> Presumably the original metaphor was tearing off another hunk from a
> loaf of
> bread or something similar.
>
> -- Mark Mandel
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

I must apologize yet a third time for failing to express myself
clearly. I am in no way unaware or doubtful of the existence of
"rip/tear/knock off a piece" and the numerous permutations thereof. It
has been an active part of my vocabulary for more than half a century.
The Appalachian reference, however, is intriguing. In my childhood in
East Texas, a word that sounded like "kyahn" was used by my parents and
grandparents with a meaning something like "an otherwise-unidentified
substance with a disgusting odor," since it occurred only in sentences
like "That smells/stinks like/as bad as kyahn." I've never heard
"kyahn" used by *anyone* outside of my immediate family. Nevertheless,
about 35 years later, while thumbing through a book on the vocabulary
of *Ozark* English, what before my wondering eyes should appear but the
citation, "kyahn. n. carrion." It blew my mind, to say the least.
Unfortunately, I'm unable to recall the title or the author of the
lexicon.

-Wilson Gray
>


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun  5 05:16:32 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 01:16:32 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <200406041242.1bwkAn5wf3NZFk70@mamo>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.011632.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 4, 2004, at 3:44 PM, sagehen wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>  Doug Wilson writes:
>>  The "situation normal"
>> part has the smell of a backronym. I could be wrong, of course.
>>
>> --
> It doesn't seem too unlikely to me that "situation normal" was an
> actual
> expression in use, though whether as /legitimate/ military jargon or
> mocking slang I wouldn't guess.  The army classified things with pretty
> hilarious labels, from a native English-speaking POV.  We had for years
> kicking about among our belongings an OD cloth object with a label
> which
> read "Cover Bag Sleeping Mountain," a relic of my partner's WWII
> service.
> If he is a representative example,  both "snafu" & "fubar" were used
> by GIs
> ('43-'45) in the understanding that they were indeed acronyms.
> A. Murie
>
>
> A&M Murie
> N. Bangor NY
> sagehen at westelcom.com

Figmo "fuck it; got my orders," probably belongs in the same class as
snafu and fubar. For you civilians out there, the point is that, having
*in hand* orders - FNE W/P O/A etc. - transferring you from post A to
post B, you are no longer subject to the rules and regulations in
effect at post A and not yet subject to the rules and regulations in
effect at post B. You've received a mini-furlough. I emphasize "in
hand" because knowledge is not power in the military. It has to be
backed up with paperwork.

-Wilson Gray
>


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun  5 05:52:29 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 01:52:29 -0400
Subject: Lyrics as posted on the Web
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.015229.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Lyrics as found on the Web aren't necessarily correct. I was looking at
the words to the hip-hop song, "Back That Azz Up" and I saw:

Girl, you looks fine! Won't you back that azz up?

I thought, That's funny. I thought it was "why don't you..." and not
"won't you..." So, I got out the CD, listened to it a dozen times or
more, and, each time, I definitely heard "why don't you..." However,
given that what was sung sounded pretty much like "hwah 'onchuh," it's
easy to understand that someone else might hear "won't you..."
I once thought that a song had the title, "S.O.S. El Amor." Given that
there was also a song titled "The Ship of Love," my interpretation
seemed to make perfect sense. The title was actually "Eso Es El Amor."

-Wilson Gray


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun  5 06:11:50 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 02:11:50 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <200406040841.1bwgOYn83NZFkZ0@quail>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.021150.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 4, 2004, at 11:41 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 5:07 PM -0700 6/2/04, Dave Wilton wrote:
>>
>> The other explanation is that "snafu," and its less well-known
>> variants like
>> "tarfu," arose in the military--an environment given to coining
>> technical
>> acronyms. In fact, the number of "snafu" variants that have come out
>> of WWII
>> point to the conclusion that the coinages were a joke about the army's
>> penchant for acronyms.
>>
>
> That's what I've always assumed about "snafu", "fubar", and their
> families; indeed, this penchant partly explains why the usual story
> on the origin of "jeep" as an acronym (< General Purpose vehicle) has
> had such a long and successful life, despite the fact that in this
> case it appears to be an etymythology (from the evidence discussed in
> earlier threads on the list).  A parallel case to "snafu" is the
> example of "wizzywig" < What You See Is What You Get, mentioned
> elsewhere, which plays off the prevalence of acronyms (albeit often
> pronounced as initialisms) in technical writing.  WYSIWIG is a
> pseudo-techie acronym in the same way that SNAFU is a
> pseudo-military/governmental/bureaucratic one.  Another possible
> candidate is GOMER (which, as some here have speculated, may not
> actually have arisen as an acronym of "Get Out of My Emergency Room").
>
> larry

"G.I." is another member of the "jeep" class. When I was in the Army, I
don't think that I heard the word "government" spoken in reference to
anything. I heard plenty of "standard issue," "Army issue," and even
plain "issue," but I never heard "government issue." A jeep was called
a "jeep," but its official designation was "one-quarter ton utility
vehicle," according to the paperwork that I had to fill out to take one
out of the motor pool.

-Wilson Gray
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  5 14:30:35 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 10:30:35 EDT
Subject: Pupusas (1947)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.103035.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Just a brief post before I go to the New York Public Library to give
David Shulman some money (for the typist of his poems).  This is what I do when
I'm let out of a week of parking tickets.
    For laughs, go to the NYPL home page at www.nypl.org.  In the left column
is "The People's University" and "Tell your NYPL story."  If you say that you
met Gerald Cohen in the New York Public Library and you solved the Big Apple
here, you're a piece of garbage and no one listens to you.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
PUPUSA

   I checked again for the CHICAGO TRIBUNE.  How did I miss the 1947 NEW YORK
TIMES cite?
   I'll tell you how.  I'd typed in "pupusa."  I didn't type in "pupusas."
ProQuest is supposed to search for both, but somehow it didn't here.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("pupusa")
    1.  Latinos Hold Heritage Day
By Betty Medsger Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times
Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jul 30, 1972. p. B3 (1 page)

    2.  Display Ad 216 -- No Title
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 21, 1976. p.
163 (1 page)

    3.  Gathering Friends & Family To Enjoy Pupusas
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 14, 1982. p.
E18 (1 page)



(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("pupusas")
    1.  LATIN-AMERICAN LOG: EL SALVADOR; Good Roads in a Small Country, Good
Food In Its Capital
By ARTHUR GOODFRIEND. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May
11, 1947. p. X15 (1 page):
   La Cruzadilla, roadside rest venfing the best pupusas in town...Pupusas,
Salvadoran specialty tortillas, or corncakes, filled with cheese, beans, or
pork cracklings--or wonder of wonders, all three mixed--piping hot, at a penny a
piece.

    2.  Latinos Hold Heritage Day
By Betty Medsger Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times
Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jul 30, 1972. p. B3 (1 page)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  5 15:22:26 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 11:22:26 EDT
Subject: Guesstimate (1904, 1928); Shrimp Wiggle (1904, 1907)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.112226.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   2004--a century of "guesstimate" and "shrimp wiggle."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
GUESSTIMATE

   It's a little earlier now (I had posted the second cite below, where it
was "coined"), but it may have been re-invented.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Other 2 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 15, 1904. p. 6 (1 page)
:
   "ALL the same," declares the Troy (N. Y.) Times, "the census estimate is
undoubtedly more reliable than Chicago guesswork."  Out here it is considered
merely a census guesstimate.

    2.  'GUESSTIMATE' APPRAISAL.; Realtor Coins New Word to Express Careless
Methods.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 6, 1928. p. 197 (1
page)

    3.  "GUESSTIMATE."
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 15, 1929. p. 7 (1
page)

    4.  "GUESSTIMATE."
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 15, 1929. p. 6 (1
page)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SHRIMP WIGGLE

   Oh, those naughty shrimp!
   I'd posted on naked shrimp, dancing shrimp, and singing shrimp, so it's
time to take another look at the shrimp wiggle.  Sure enough, the Chicago
Tribune is first.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Luncheon Dishes.; Shrimp Wiggle. SECOND PRIZE. $5.
MRS. E H LOWE. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 29,
1907. p. F3 (1 page) :
   A good Sunday night tea dish is a shrimp wiggle with sandwiches.  Pour one
pint rich milk or cream into your chafing dish.  When near boiling point
thicken with one tablespoon flour rolled into one of butter.  Add one can or one
pint fresh shrimps.  Stew four minutes.  Add one-fourth can green peas.  Boil
up once and serve on squares of hot buttered toast.
   Sandwiches to accompany above: Pour one-half pint boiling water on one
package pineapple jello on Saturday and pour it into a square, shallow mold.
When ready for your sandwiches set the mold for an instant into boiling water.
Invert on a dish and slice with a warm knife.  Place each slice between two of
nut bread cut thin and trim off the uneven sides.
   Another good filling for sandwiches is made of one roll of neufchatel
cheese mixed with one tablespoonful of white bar le duc jelly.  Spread this
mixture between thin slices of white bread, buttered.
MRS. E. H. LOWE,
1325 School Street, Rockford, Ill.

    2.  Some of the Fine Art of Chafing Dish Cookery -- Recipes That Every
Good Housewife Should Know.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 8, 1911. p. X7 (1
page)

    3.  Display Ad 10 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 2, 1927. p. 12 (1 page)


    4.  Display Ad 4 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 26, 1927. p. 4 (1 page)


    5.  CHEF WYMAN'S Suggestion's For TOMORROWS MENU; SHRIMP WIGGLE PATTIES
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 10, 1928. p.
A8 (1 page)

    6.  Handy Hints To Help the Homemaker; Shrimp Wiggle, Relish Salad, Fudge
Frosting, Chocolate Brownies Outlawed in Recipes -- Sunday Tea Menu.
By LOUISE BENNETT WEAVER.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.:
Oct 19, 1928. p. 11 (1 page)

    7.  Jane's Cooking Corner; SHRIEMP WIGGLE
gane E Hall. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul
21, 1929. p. J8 (1 page)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Indianapolis Star - 10/23/1910
...s, will be tUft chafing dlbh such as SHRIMP WIGGLE; Golden Buck, English..
Indianapolis, Indiana Sunday, October 23, 1910  770 k

Indianapolis Star - 11/4/1910
...morning or from 2 to 4 this afternoon. SHRIMP WIGGLE, OOLDKN BUCK AND
WELSH..
Indianapolis, Indiana Friday, November 04, 1910  949 k

Altoona Mirror - 2/10/1904
...Two day Alii End Sale Price Try SHRIMP WIGGLE At the Armour.....tomorrow,
and try a free sample of SHRIMP WIGGLE at the Armour..
Altoona, Pennsylvania Wednesday, February 10, 1904  667 k
Page 5, col. 5:
    _Try Shrimp Wiggle_
   At the Armour Demonstration.

   Step down to the basement, tomorrow, and try a free sample of Shrimp
Wiggle at the Armour demonstration booth.  A delicious delicacy when made of Armour
preparations.
   Armour's Extract of Beef, Asparox, Tomato Buillon, etc., on sale at the
tea and coffee counter.

GABLE AND CO.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  5 16:29:58 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 12:29:58 EDT
Subject: Shrimp Wiggle (1901)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.122958.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Sorry about that.  Give me some wiggle room here.


(GOOGLE) ("Feeding America")
http://digital.lib.msu.edu/cookbooks/searchresultswithin.cfm
Lobster Wiggle
The Good Housekeeping Woman's Home Cook Book. Chicago: Reilly & Britton, 1909

SHRIMP WIGGLE--Patties
The Settlement Cook Book: Containing Many Recipes Used In Settlement Cooking
Classes, The Milwaukee Public School Cooking Centers And Gathered From Various
Other Reliable Sources / Compiled By Mrs. Simon Kander. Milwaukee: [s.n.],
1901.


(Lobster Wiggle?  Do lobsters sing and dance naked, too?  Surely, a clawing
performance?--ed.)


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Sat Jun  5 17:45:32 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 13:45:32 -0400
Subject: Acronyms (was: Phat(t), etc)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.134532.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just to reply to Doug Wilson, who said:

'I do doubt "fubar" as a
genuine acronym because the supposed expansion includes the word "all"
which doesn't really belong.'

'Beyond all recognition' is a perfectly good idiom for me;  'beyond recognition'
feels as if there's something 'missing'.  I do agree that the 'all' doesn't
really add anything to the phrase;  I ascribe its presence to a desire by users
to stress that there is absolutely no possibility of recognising a thing that
has been (verb)ed, or is (adjective), to the extent described.

I think it's an emphasis phenomenon along the same lines as 'They haven't yet
notified ourselves':  the *-selves* is of course wrong for classical English
grammar but it has been added by users of English in business (I think) to
emphasise the centrality in the situation of the person referred to.  I could
imagine that people who would say 'They haven't yet notified ourselves' would
also have coined 'beyond all recognition' to emphasise that even the advanced
methods of recognition available to them as a specialist, and not to the
layman, would have failed at the recognition task described.

A Google search on 'beyond all recognition' reveals lots of tokens;  most either
are 'Fucked/Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition' or phrases clearly derived from
that one, but some are not:  'disgusting beyond all recognition', 'they have
butchered the story beyond all recognition', etc.

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Sat Jun  5 17:56:55 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 13:56:55 -0400
Subject: "Pop-pop" revisited
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.135655.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Someone asked, a couple of days ago:

'I wonder if anyone knows whether either
Papa/Papaw or Pop Pop is used in Britain?'

I have never heard 'Papa/Papaw' used as a title for a grandfather (come to that,
I don't think I've actually ever heard anyone use 'Papa' for a father, whether
it's 'paPAH' or 'PAp@';  it strikes me as archaic and/or upper-class (I'm
middle-class), and I think I've only seen it written in non-twentieth-century
fiction, in the twentieth-century fiction of PG Wodehouse and in the plays of
Oscar Wilde.

I've never heard an unquestionable British use of 'Pop Pop' for a grandfather
either.  However, there's a friend of our family, British, middle-class and
born in the mid-70s, who referred to her grandfather as 'popp@'.  At least,
that was the way I always heard it;  I don't know whether there was a [p] at
the end or not, so it could conceivably have been either 'Pop-pop' or 'Poppa'.

The overwhelmingly most popular British title for a grandfather is 'Grandad' or,
much less commonly but pronounced the same, the spelling 'Grand-dad'.

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun  5 18:18:06 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 14:18:06 -0400
Subject: Acronyms (was: Phat(t), etc)
In-Reply-To: <1086457532.40c206bcbaf9d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.141806.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>'I do doubt "fubar" as a
>genuine acronym because the supposed expansion includes the word "all"
>which doesn't really belong.'
>
>'Beyond all recognition' is a perfectly good idiom for me; ....

I concede this point.

It's not sufficient for the idiom to look good to many people or even to
most people in 2004; the question is whether it was routinely used pre-1940
... and it WAS quite routinely used, according to quick text search which I
should have done before making any remark (sorry) ... I did some sort of
search on this years ago, with a different result, probably because of
inadequate databases and/or errors on my part.

I withdraw this objection.

I'm glad somebody is keeping me honest.

-- Doug Wilson


From pds at VISI.COM  Sat Jun  5 20:52:11 2004
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 15:52:11 -0500
Subject: "Pop-Pop" revisited
In-Reply-To: <20040603213144.D5B554AE5@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.155211.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I checked with one set of mor-mor/pa-pa users.  They confirmed Beverly's
version of the Swedish system.  It turns out that in their family there is
a large group of cousins who would frequently get together.  Rather than
some using mor-more and mor-far and others using far-mor and far-far, they
all compromised on mor-mor and pa-pa (pah-pah) for grandmother and
grandfather Enquist.

--Tom Kysilko

At 6/3/2004 05:29 PM -0400, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Ah, but that's a whole nother set--mormor, morfar, farmor, and farfar (I
>think I have them right--mother's mother, mother's father, etc.).  My
>sister is mormor to her grandson, but her husband (were he alive) would be
>morfar.  I've never heard pa-pa used for grandfather among Scandinavian
>Americans, but I've been away from Minnesota for a long while.  (My
>colleague, who knows Finnish and Swedish pretty well, says his Finnish
>in-laws use Pa-pa for g-father, but he's never heard Swedes do so.)


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun  5 21:40:13 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 17:40:13 -0400
Subject: The Sloop John B.
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.174013.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As Larry Horn suggested, there is more than one version of The Sloop
John B. as sung by The Beach Boys.

There's a Beach Boys version with Brian singing lead in which he
clearly sings, "I feel so broke up."

There's a Beach Boys version with Carl singing lead in which he clearly
sings, "I feel so break up," undoubtedly the version with which Larry
and I are most familiar and, therefore, clearly must be regarded as the
canonical version.;-)

There's a Beach Boys version with both singing lead in which one sings
"break up" as the other sings "broke up."

  There is a Beach Boys version with the words, "broke in the captain's
trunk."

There is a Beach Boys version with the words, "broke in the people's
trunk."

Further searching would, no doubt, yield further versions with still
more variations in the words.

-Wilson Gray


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun  5 22:04:55 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 15:04:55 -0700
Subject: "Pop-pop" revisited
In-Reply-To: <200406051056.1bwFpDTv3NZFl40@penguin>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.150455.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>...I have never heard 'Papa/Papaw' used as a title for a grandfather
>(come to that,
>I don't think I've actually ever heard anyone use 'Papa' for a father,
...
Both of my parents called their respective fathers "Papa."  Maybe it
was a Yiddish thing?  My generation called my mother's father Grandpa
and my father's father ZAYdee.

Rima


From preston at MSU.EDU  Sat Jun  5 22:11:44 2004
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:11:44 -0400
Subject: "Pop-pop" revisited
In-Reply-To: <a06020401bce7d8b080d2@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.181144.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Some of these facts are clearly dialectal and have, I think, to do
with the phonetic status of /a/. For me it is a lax vowel and cannot
occupy open syllable position. For my Milwaukee wife it appears to be
a tense vowel and can. She speaks, for example, of a 'ma and pa
store' with the vowel of 'hot'; for me it must be a 'maw and paw
store' with the vowel of 'caught.' (Canadians, many New Englanders,
and all the west of the US who lack the caught-cot distinction are
clearly beyond the pale - or below the pale-bucket line - in this
discussion.)
That phonetic fact, however, does not preclude distinctive uses of
the forms themselves of course. For me, paw-paw and maw-maw (with the
caught vowel, if you know what I mean) were grandparents.

dInIs


>>...I have never heard 'Papa/Papaw' used as a title for a grandfather
>>(come to that,
>>I don't think I've actually ever heard anyone use 'Papa' for a father,
>...
>Both of my parents called their respective fathers "Papa."  Maybe it
>was a Yiddish thing?  My generation called my mother's father Grandpa
>and my father's father ZAYdee.
>
>Rima


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Sat Jun  5 23:15:02 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 19:15:02 -0400
Subject: "Pop-pop" revisited
In-Reply-To: <a06020400bce7f4447a55@[24.11.166.109]>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.191502.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here in SE Ohio it's sometimes Pawpaw and Mawmaw but more often Paepaw and
Maemaw (the first syllable has the low front vowel), usually spelled Papaw
and Mamaw.

At 06:11 PM 6/5/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Some of these facts are clearly dialectal and have, I think, to do
>with the phonetic status of /a/. For me it is a lax vowel and cannot
>occupy open syllable position. For my Milwaukee wife it appears to be
>a tense vowel and can. She speaks, for example, of a 'ma and pa
>store' with the vowel of 'hot'; for me it must be a 'maw and paw
>store' with the vowel of 'caught.' (Canadians, many New Englanders,
>and all the west of the US who lack the caught-cot distinction are
>clearly beyond the pale - or below the pale-bucket line - in this
>discussion.)
>That phonetic fact, however, does not preclude distinctive uses of
>the forms themselves of course. For me, paw-paw and maw-maw (with the
>caught vowel, if you know what I mean) were grandparents.
>
>dInIs
>
>
>>>...I have never heard 'Papa/Papaw' used as a title for a grandfather
>>>(come to that,
>>>I don't think I've actually ever heard anyone use 'Papa' for a father,
>>...
>>Both of my parents called their respective fathers "Papa."  Maybe it
>>was a Yiddish thing?  My generation called my mother's father Grandpa
>>and my father's father ZAYdee.
>>
>>Rima
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
>        Asian and African Languages
>Wells Hall A-740
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>Office: (517) 353-0740
>Fax: (517) 432-2736


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Sun Jun  6 00:54:53 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 19:54:53 -0500
Subject: kyarn
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.195453.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In my childhood in
>East Texas, a word that sounded like "kyahn" was used by my parents and
>grandparents with a meaning something like "an otherwise-unidentified
>substance with a disgusting odor," since it occurred only in sentences
>like "That smells/stinks like/as bad as kyahn." I've never heard
>"kyahn" used by *anyone* outside of my immediate family. Nevertheless,
>about 35 years later, while thumbing through a book on the vocabulary
>of *Ozark* English, what before my wondering eyes should appear but the
>citation, "kyahn. n. carrion." It blew my mind, to say the least.
>Unfortunately, I'm unable to recall the title or the author of the
>lexicon.

My wife's maternal grandmother is in her 80's, and grew up/lives in
south Georgia (Douglas, Nicholls).  My wife picked up from her side
of the family "kyarn", meaning carrion (note the "r").  The best decription
is kyarn is what a dog will roll in just before it
comes inside and rubs against you.  The stinkier, the better.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  6 00:57:07 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 20:57:07 -0400
Subject: Test of a/the Champion (1949); OT: Ronald Reagan
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.205707.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OT:  RONALD REAGAN

   Ronald Reagan has died.

---------------------------------------------------------------
TEST OF A/THE CHAMPION

   Smarty Jones lost the last leg of the Triple Crown, like many horses before him.


(GOOGLE)
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040606/D831651O0.html
Smarty Jones Fails in Triple Crown Bid
Jun 5, 8:17 PM (ET)
By RICHARD ROSENBLATT
NEW YORK (AP) - Smarty Jones lost his Triple Crown bid and his perfect record when Birdstone ran him down near the finish of Saturday's thrilling Belmont Stakes, toppling his chance to end a record 26-year drought without a winner of thoroughbred racing's most coveted prize.

The little red chestnut was poised to become the 12th Triple Crown champion when he turned for home, but Birdstone came flying down the stretch and took the lead inside the 16th pole to win by a length.

That move dashed yet another Triple Crown hopeful's attempt to do what no horse has managed since Affirmed in 1978.

(...)

And so, the exclusive little club of 11 Triple Crown champions remains the same. And Smarty Jones is now the 18th horse to come tantalizingly close to winning it all, only to be tripped up in a race known as the "Test of the Champion."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("test of a champion" + "Belmont")
Lima News - 5/23/1971
...hAve won .n the lAst 10 BELMONTs, The TEST OF A ChAmpion At'l milles. both.....rAcing immorAlity. EAch fAiled in the BELMONT. Other beAten BELMONT fAvorites..
Lima, Ohio   Sunday, May 23, 1971  935 k

Mansfield News Journal - 6/19/1956
...celebrAtefl rAce is AmericA's truest TEST OF A chAmpion, And most horsemen.....lied Smith NEW A mAn showed Up At BELMONT cArrying piece OF pAper, A..
Mansfield, Ohio   Tuesday, June 19, 1956  748 k

Independent - 6/19/1956
...TO prove it. Over 10 00 010 310 000 -TEST OF A chAmpion, And most horsemen.....0000 .the better pArt OF A century, BELMONT hAs insisted with o o o modesty..
Pasadena, California   Tuesday, June 19, 1956  772 k

Reno Evening Gazette - 6/15/1940
...AssociAted Press Sports Writer The TEST OF A chAmpion is whAt is sometimes.....beAten by AnnibAl in A recent rAce At BELMONT PArk. The two will renew their..
Reno, Nevada   Saturday, June 15, 1940  803 k


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("test of the champion" and "Belmont")
Lincoln Evening Journal - 6/10/1960
...for THE most victories in this "TEST OF THE CHAMPION." Earlier this week.....shoots for a record 7th triumph in THE BELMONT Stakes Saturday at BELMONT Park..
Lincoln, Nebraska   Friday, June 10, 1960  747 k

Atchison Daily Globe - 6/10/1956
...C V.'Whifcney entry OF Career j TEST OF THE CHAMPION. Boy and Jazz Age. j In.....settled in THE swanky r-urroundmgs OF BELMONT Park next Saturday j afternoon..
Atchison, Kansas   Sunday, June 10, 1956  739 k

Lima News - 6/10/1960
...for THE most victories in this "TEST OF THE CHAMPION." Earlier this week.....for a record seventh triumph in THE BELMONT Stakes Saturday at BELMONT Park..
Lima, Ohio   Friday, June 10, 1960  680 k

Gettysburg Times - 6/10/1955
...THE mile and one half "TEST OF THE CHAMPION" will be raced at BELMONT Park.....Nashua is THE only one OF THE BELMONT field to have started in THE..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania   Friday, June 10, 1955  708 k

Chronicle Telegram - 6/10/1960
...for THE most victories in this "TEST OF THE CHAMPION." Earlier this week.....for a record seventh triumph in THE BELMONT Stakes tomorrow at BELMONT Park..
Elyria, Ohio   Friday, June 10, 1960  719 k

Frederick Post - 6/12/1954
...OF all BELMONT Stakes. Although THE "TEST OF THE CHAMPION" may lack THE.....grind considered America's premier TEST for 3-yearolds. Fourteen starters..
Frederick, Maryland   Saturday, June 12, 1954  976 k

Dixon Evening Telegraph - 6/12/1953
...Sunny Jim has taken five Belmonls. THE TEST OF THE CHAMPION Alfred Gwynne.....vs. Stanford. Duke vs. Colorado Slate. BELMONT: Dancer's Big TEST GreaTEST Race..
Dixon, Illinois   Friday, June 12, 1953  752 k

Lima News - 6/9/1962
...THE four outstanding entrants in THE "TEST OF THE CHAMPION." Folk Dancer has a.....runnings in THE long history OF THE BELMONT Stakes. Usually THE Kentucky..
Lima, Ohio   Saturday, June 09, 1962  1017 k

Chronicle Telegram - 6/9/1950
...BELMONT boasts is its tag-line "THE TEST OF THE CHAMPION." ANIMALS WITHOUT.....who with Lloyd Mangrum and defending CHAMPION Gary MiddlecOFf were listed at..
Elyria, Ohio   Friday, June 09, 1950  737 k

Reno Evening Gazette - 6/6/1952
...and Mrs. Walter M. Jeffords1 One half "TEST OF THE CHAMPION." But Count. All.....1, principaly because he likos I THE BELMONT track. THE Cain Hoy THE I colt..
Reno, Nevada   Friday, June 06, 1952  614 k

Reno Evening Gazette - 6/13/1956
...again in THE mile and one half "TEST OF THE CHAMPION." In THE 17-horse.....in THE 88th running OF THE famous BELMONT Stakes Saturday. That seemed to..
Reno, Nevada   Wednesday, June 13, 1956  681 k

Dixon Evening Telegraph - 6/10/1955
...THE mile and one half "TEST OF THE CHAMPION'' will be raced at BELMONT Park.....Jones OF Rutland, Vi., THE defending CHAMPION. Mrs. Jones established THE..
Dixon, Illinois   Friday, June 10, 1955  786 k

Bridgeport Post - 6/10/1955
...country. .v THE BELMONT is called THE TEST OF THE CHAMPION here because it is.....pn -Sunny is.'. sixth victory half .'.'TEST OF. THE and ;.a f possible eight 3..
Bridgeport, Connecticut   Friday, June 10, 1955  835 k

Oshkosh Daily Northwestern - 6/9/1953
...date. Spen'Dancer' To Get Top TEST In BELMONT NEW YORK Native Dancer.....as expected, gets THE "TEST OF THE CHAMPION" Saturday in THE 85th running..
Oshkosh, Wisconsin   Tuesday, June 09, 1953  753 k

Dixon Evening Telegraph - 6/16/1951
...OFf in THE tough mile and one half TEST OF THE CHAMPION. Jack Amiel's Count.....defeated THE locals. Count Turf Heads BELMONT Entries NEW (AP) One OF THE..
Dixon, Illinois   Saturday, June 16, 1951  877 k

Gazette Bulletin - 6/12/1954
...OF all BELMONT Stakes. Although THE ".TEST OF THE CHAMPION" may lack thu.....grind considered America's premier TEST for tnree-year-0tfts. Fourteen..
Williamsport, Pennsylvania   Saturday, June 12, 1954  804 k

Coshocton Tribune - 6/8/1953
...old division as expected, gets THE "TEST OF THE CHAMPION" Saturday in THE.....s three-year olds run in THE gruelling BELMONT. OF THE 126 nominated for THE..
Coshocton, Ohio   Monday, June 08, 1953  784 k

Dixon Evening Telegraph - 6/6/1952
...THE maximum for THE mile and one half "TEST OF THE CHAMPION." With eight facing.....to THE secretary's OFfice today at BELMONT park and plank down THE starting..
Dixon, Illinois   Friday, June 06, 1952  593 k

Independent Journal - 2/21/1952
...weight for age, OFten is called "THE TEST OF THE CHAMPION" and Is1 a favorite.....association announced today. THE. BELMONT, a gruellug TEST for three-year..
San Rafael, California   Thursday, February 21, 1952  1007 k

Traverse City Record Eagle - 6/13/1953
...classic long has been regarded as TEST OF THE CHAMPION. Applied to today's.....victory in THE Preakness. So THE BELMONT shapes up as a big TEST, indeed..
Traverse City, Michigan   Saturday, June 13, 1953  528 k

Berkshire Evening Eagle - 6/6/1952
...THE maximum for THE mile and one half "TEST OF THE CHAMPION." But if only six.....to THE secretary's OFfice today at BELMONT Park and plank down THE starting..
Pittsfield, Massachusetts   Friday, June 06, 1952  567 k

Oshkosh Daily Northwestern - 6/9/1955
...triple crown" races, is called THE "TEST OF THE CHAMPION" and THEre are few.....with it. THE gruelling mile-end-a-half BELMONT, longest OF THE..
Oshkosh, Wisconsin   Thursday, June 09, 1955  915 k

Stevens Point Daily Journal - 6/10/1955
...THE mile and one half "TEST OF THE CHAMPION" will he raced at BELMONT park.....San Antonio, Tex., British Amateur CHAMPION, led five Americans into THE..
Stevens Point, Wisconsin   Friday, June 10, 1955  764 k


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   Count Fleet Prohibitive Favorite in 68th Withers Stakes at Belmont Today; SIX RACERS NAMED FOR MILE FIXTURE Slide Rule Rated Chief Rival of Count Fleet in $15,000 Added Withers Today TOLA ROSE WINS HANDICAP 13-10 Favorite Leads All the Way to Beat Bolingbroke by Three Lengths
By BRYAN FIELD. New York Times (1857. May 22, 1943. p. 17 (1 page):
   Count Fleet and five others have been named for the historic WIthers Stakes, $15,000 added feature at Belmont Park today, that will serve as a test of the champion's ability to come down to a mile from the longer routes he has been running.

   Ponder, Palestinian and Capot Head Field of Eight in Belmont Stakes Today; CALUMET FAVORITE FACES STERN TEST Ponder Bids for 3-Year-Old Title in Mile-and-One-Half $91,500 Belmont Today PALESTINIAN A KEEN RIVAL Capot Expected to Attempt a Front-Running Triumph -- Double Pays $743.60
By JAMES ROACH. New York Times (1857. Jun 11, 1949. p. 14 (1 page):
   At that time, if the starting fee of $750 is paid for each, eight colts of that age will go into the starting gate at Belmont Park for the eighty-first running of the Belmont Stakes, "test of the champion" in the division.

   ROTZ IS ASSIGNED TO HIGH ECHELON; Jacobs Entry Likely to Be Even Money Field of 9 Expected for Event
By JOE NICHOLS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 5, 1970. p. 45 (1 page) :
   Although it does not compare to last year's running, when previously undefeated Majestic Prince and Arts and Letters held the public interest, this year's Belmont Stakes is attracting more than mild attention.  The main reason is the presence in the field of Mrs. Ethel D. Jacob's Personality and High Echelon.
   The Jacobs entry continued to be rated the favorite for tomorrow's mile-and-a-half "test of the champion."

   Ron Turcotte Remembers Secretariat
Dave Anderson. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 5, 1976. p. 41 (1 page):
   At a mile and one-half, the Belmont Stakes is known as the Test of a Champion.


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun  6 01:04:20 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 21:04:20 -0400
Subject: kyarn
In-Reply-To: <6D0A4730B029C545AC8DE97D7F22049D012195F2@rdec-exch8.ds.amr
 dec.army.mil>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.210420.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Several such variants are shown in DARE under "carrion".

-- Doug Wilson


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Sun Jun  6 01:35:39 2004
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 20:35:39 -0500
Subject: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.203539.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If you are hunting the book, it might be Dale Freeman's "non-books" "How to
talk Pure Ozark...'Thout Hardly Even Tryin'" parts I and II which I got from
the SMSU bookstore a year or so ago.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilson Gray" <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET>

Nevertheless, about 35 years later, while thumbing through a book on the
vocabulary of *Ozark* English, what before my wondering eyes should appear
but the citation, "kyahn. n. carrion." It blew my mind, to say the least.
Unfortunately, I'm unable to recall the title or the author of the lexicon.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  6 02:57:31 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 22:57:31 -0400
Subject: Blue Rhine, Black Forest (1930) (German cuisine; 1 of 2)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.225731.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I was looking for "Black Forest cake," but instead found much more.  There's an appendix on German food terms.
   If you're not interested, please just browse or delete...Gerald Cohen takes trips to Germany and there are some food people here, but I don't want to burden others.


BLUE RHINE
BLACK FOREST
A HAND- AN DAY-BOOK
by Louis Untermeyer
New York: Harcourt, Brace and Company
1930

Pg. 7:  It may be equally true that all one needs in German is _Ein Glas Bier, Danke schon, Wo ist das Abort?_

Pg. 15:  It was the tact of the _portier_ at the Hotel Metropol that taught me how to eat _Asperges a la Flamande_.  As an asparagus lover, I had opened my eyes at the mamoth (Pg. 16--ed.) white stalks, accompanied by a butter-sauce _and_ a severely simple hard-boiled egg.  Most of my compatriots, the _portier_ confided with a shudder, either sent the egg back, saying it had not been ordered, or, worse still, ate their asparagus _au naturel_--and then attacked the egg.  As an traveled person knew, he continued, the egg must be gently sliced, cross-cut and, when its portions were sufficiently reduced, pressed and prodded with a fork.  Next, the melted butter was poured over the result, mixed with it and heaped in a low mound.  The asparagus was now ready to be annointed, and then--The _portier's_ gesture was graphic.

Pg. 24:  Trays of beer, pretzels, _Schinkenbrotchen_ appear at the further end.

Pg. 30:  ...an establishment where, for twenty cents, one may acclimate one's self to the _Burgerliches Mittagessen_ (popular lunch) of _Bratwurst_ and beer; hardware store, cabaret, _Conditorei_ (a super-bakery),...

Pg. 41 ("Wines of the Rhine"):  The _Johannisberg Klaus_ and the familiar _Johannisberger_, like their more aristocratic relation, are distinguished by bouquet an affability rather than by power.  One can taste cool shadows and slow sunlight in even a low-priced _Johannisberger_.  The neighboring _Rudesheimer_ is a more deceptive wine; so light as to seem harmless, its innocence is a sham and the partaker should be aware of its sublety.

Pg. 42:  Other wines celebrated in the Rheingau ( a section fifteen miles long) are the full-bodied _Grafenberger_, the beryl-colored _Grisenheimer_, the delicate _Marcobrunner_ (an ideal "ladies' wine"), the less elegant but satisfactory _Hallgartener_, and the always superior _Hochheimer_, shortened in England to "Hock"--by which the Englishman means any white wine of Germany.

Pg. 55:  But the red wine which the region honors is still called _Drachenblut_--"Dragon's Blood."

Pg. 87:  Here is Assmannshausen, the home of the "famed and furious" red wine and a dozen tales, purporting to show how it got its potency.

Pg. 92:  THE "WINE-MOUNTAINS"
Pg. 94:  ...up they go to the _Weinberge_ (literally "wine-mountains"),...

Pg. 104:  THE CONDITOREI
   The _Conditorei_ (_habitat_ Germany and Austria) deserves a chapter to itself.  More, it deserves a laureate.  It is a glorified sweetshop, a bakery lifted to the _n_th, a cake-and-coffee shop in Heaven.  No one can appreciate tarts, has ever understood pastry, until confronted with the pastrymaker's sould as it is revealed on the lyrical counters of the _Conditorei_.  Merely as designs, the _Kuchen_ (high German for _patisserie_) are as ingenious as they are infite.  Here are chocolate squares precariously balanced on an edifice of _Blatterteig_ (tissue-paper dough); here are towers of cherries leaning Pisa-like above a foundation of _blanc mange_; here vanilla triangles are set back from futuristic flanks of plums, spun sugar and candied rhubarb.  What Ely (Pg. 105--ed.) Jacques Kahn has done for the recessional skyscrapers, and P. T. Frankl for step-back furniture, some anonymous German has accomplished for the hitherto conventional pastry.  So much for the design.  Luckily for the clumsy artificer in words, the tastes are indescribable.  All the known and at least twelve unknown sweetmeats and spices have been insinuated into these _Strudels_, _Barpfoten_, _Indianer_, _Lebkuchen_, _Linxertorten_, ten-layered, chocolate-wafered _Pischinger Torten_, rum-flavored _Punschtorten_, _Anana Creme_, _Cremeschnitten_, _Krapfen_, _Scheiterhaufen_. . . .
   And, like an ever-recurrent theme, more persistent than a Wagnerian motif, occurs the _Schlagsahne_ (_Schlagobers_), that favorite substratum which is nothing more nor less than whipped cream.  To the German, whipped cream is anything but a culinary flourish; it is no mere twirl to drop in one's cocoa or add as a decorative scallop to a wedge of fruit.  To the German, it is a sweet _per se_, a complete dish, a teatime _raison d'etre_.  Every traveler has gasped to see dainty Frauleins and Teutons who are almost Titans consuming plates, piles and pyramids of whipped cream _au naturel_.  Rare is the American who can suppress a shudder.  He may become used to Rhine wine for breakfast, acclimated to beer and _Wurstel_ at eleven A.M.; he may even develop a passion for those lumps of boiled dough called _Spatzle_.  But the idea of sitting down to saucers of _Schlagsahne_ will always curdle his patriotic blood.

Pg. 112:  At each end are fragrant, open-air kitchens where one can buy--and decided does buy--_Waffeln_, which are waffles without a taint of sogginess, without a suspicion of dough or, for that matter, of this heavy-hearted world; waffles idealized, etherealized, spiritualized, to which our waffles are as Caliban to Prospero; waffles upon which the powdered sugar lies like rhyme upon a poem; affles compounded of hope, faith and midsummer moonlight; waffles that life a man (and sometimes a woman) above himself; waffles...
(I gotta tell the NY TIMES that this is the food critic to replace William Grimes--ed.)

Pg. 119:  No one thinks of retiring immediately after the theater in Heidelberg.  There are a dozen restaurants, _Bierstube_, coffee-houses, _Weinkeller_.  Andthere is, first of all, The Perkeo.  To the eye, The Perkeo is an overcrowded and rather dingy Ratskeller on the Hauptstrasse a little to the west of the Ludwigsplatz.  To the ear, it is a jumble of all the barbarous dialects south of Hamburg.  But to the palate, it is Paradise enow.  The loaf of bread has turned into a variety of salt pretzel and _Stangel_, placed before you cunningly designed to increase your thirst; the book of verse is translated into the poetry of _Leberknodel_, _Knackwurst_, _Sauerbraten_; the jug of wine foams into the sweeter mead of _Marzenbier_, _Maibock_, _Hackerbrau_, _Spatenbrau_, _Lowenbrau_, _Leopoldbrau_...

Pg. 120:  Next morning, without the slightest trace of _Katzenjammer_ ("cat's yammering" i.e., a hangover), you are fitter than ever.

Pg. 122:  If you are wise, you will let the _Fuhrer_ (official guide) take you through.
(OED has nothing before 1934 and the Nazis--ed.)

Pg. 127 ("THE STADT-GARTEN"):  But for the untutored and merely thirsty, there is the Pilsener type (generally known as _helles_ or light beer) and the heavier, sweeter Munchener (_dunkles_ or dark beer).  One may, of course, insist on the genuine Pilsener (now the product of Czecho-Slovakia) at double the price, but an order of "_Ein Glas helles_" will usually bring a light and satisfactory potation, while "_Ein Glas dunkles_" will result in something not unworthy of Munich.

Pg. 151:  The standard of life is still governed by the three K's: "_Kuche_, _Kirche_, _Kinder_"--which may be high-handedly translated "Kitchen, Kirk, Kiddies."

Pg. 155:  Examples may be collected at every Wirtschaft, inn and cross-roads,  Scarcely a dining-room is without this subtle invitation and apology:
   _Hunger is der beste Koch_
   _Der je war oder wirdet noch._
Which may be translated roughly:
   Away with recipes in books,
   Hunger is the best of cooks!

Pg. 184 ("LUNCHING IN FREIBURG"):  The ordinary three mark table d'hote offers the always dependable noodle soup, a _Vorspeise_ of eggs or fish, young roast chicken or saddle of venison, a _Torte_ or _Ananas Erdbeeren_, "pineapple strawberries," so called because of their size and fragrance.  Venison in Germany is no patrician dish; even the name has no lordly implications: _Rehrucken_ or _Rehragout_ is mere "deer stew" or peasant "roe-steak."

Pg. 199 ("WOLFACH"):  This is the country of streams where the trout leap into the fish-basket and the _Schwarzbrod Torte_ is glorified.  Do not let the plebian name deceive you; the _Schwazbrod (sic) Torte_, in order to justify its name, may be black bread among its constitutents, but the finished product is like it in nothing but color.  Here, masquerading under the domestic misnomer, are more spices than the East would recognize, a hugger-mugger of fat raisins, golden sultanas, syrupy currants, citron, orange-peel, chocolate--and a generous dash of that colorless but commanding essence known as _Kirchwasser_.  The novice is advised that it is well to stop after the fourth portion.

Pg. 204 ("RIPPOLDSAU"):  An average menu in the Saal for those not suffering from anything worse than sore heels consists of cream of chicken, blue brook trout uncontaminated  by plebian bread crumbs, young gosling with chipolata, a fennel salad, a _bombe_ of variegated ices and assorted marzipan cakes.  A Kurhaus!

Pg. 208:  At the Tannenhof we weighed the claims of a _Kappelrodecker_, a peach-colored wine, against a pale-gold _Markgrafler_ without coming to a decision.

Pg. 227:  "FAREWELL TROUT"
  There is still the matter of the _Abschiedsforelle_--literally "Farewell Trout."  If the departing guest has not offended the entire community, his last supper is signalized by the entry of a large silver pot, the handles of which are covered with elaborately twisted napkins.  The (Pg. 228--ed.) chef himself appears, the waitresses stand back, the pot in which the fish was cooked is reverently placed on your table which has blossomed with ferns and rose petals, the lid is lifted, the guests murmur "_Abschiedsforellen_" and the prepared rainbow trout is put on your plate.  It is the brightly speckled trout _au naturel_--just as he glistened in his ciy waters.  No self-respecting cook would commit the sacrilege of subtracting the head or adding a bread crumb; fresh butter and small potatoes are the only permitted accompaniment.  You slit your piscatorial Godspeed, remove the backbone, raise your glass of half-sweet Rulander (a Hundseck specialty), invoke Herr Maushart and the gods.  Ten minutes of delicatesilence.  Then the chef departs, the silver pot is taken away, the customary roast appears.  The ritual is over.

Pg. 231 ("BADEN-BADEN ENVIRONS"):  ...Ausfluge_ (picnics)...
   ...to the Alte Schloss (or Hohenbaden) and its conveniently situated restaurant which serves the finest _Zwetschgentorte_ (plum-cake) in all Europe.

Pg. 237:  APPENDIX A  A CONDENSED GLOSSARY
Pg. 239:  FOOD
   (GENERAL)
Abendbrot (Abendessen): supper
Bauernbrot: coarse bread
Bier (helles), (dunkles): beer (light), (dark)
Brauntwien: spirits
Brot: bread
Brotchen: rolls
Butter: butter
Eier: eggs
Eierkuchen: omelet
Eier weich gekochte; Eier hart gekochte: soft-boiled eggs; hard-boiled eggs
Essig: vinegar
Fische: fish
Flasche: bottle
Fleisch: meat
Fruhstuck: breakfast
Gabel fruhstuck (Mittagessen): lunch
Gebackene: baked
Gebratene (s): fried or roasted
Gedampfte (s): steamed, stewed
Gedunste (s): stewed
Gerostete (s): roasted, grilled
Haferflocken: oatmeal
Hauptmalzeit: dinner
Honig: honey
Kaffee: coffee
Kase: cheese
Knodel: dumplings
Milch: milk
Mitagessen: lunch
Obst (Frucht): fruit
Oel: oil
Pg. 240:
Pfannkuchen: pancakes
Rostbrot: toast
Rotwein: red wine
Ruhreier: scrambled eggs
Schnitte: cut, sliced
Senft: mustard
Spatzle: small dumplings
Speisenfolge: menu, bill of fare
Spiegeleier: fried eggs
Sprudel: mineral water
Suppe: soup
Susspeise: sweet
Tasse: cup
Tee: tea
Tunke: sauce
Verlorene Eier: poached eggs
Vorspeise: Hors d'oeuvre
Wacholder branntwein: gin
Wasser: water
Wein: wine
Weisswein: white wine

(TO BE CONTINUED)


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Jun  6 03:25:16 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 23:25:16 -0400
Subject: kyarn
In-Reply-To: <200406051755.1bwLWe2gR3NZFmR1@bunting>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.232516.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 5, 2004, at 8:54 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject:      kyarn
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> In my childhood in
>> East Texas, a word that sounded like "kyahn" was used by my parents
>> and
>> grandparents with a meaning something like "an otherwise-unidentified
>> substance with a disgusting odor," since it occurred only in sentences
>> like "That smells/stinks like/as bad as kyahn." I've never heard
>> "kyahn" used by *anyone* outside of my immediate family. Nevertheless,
>> about 35 years later, while thumbing through a book on the vocabulary
>> of *Ozark* English, what before my wondering eyes should appear but
>> the
>> citation, "kyahn. n. carrion." It blew my mind, to say the least.
>> Unfortunately, I'm unable to recall the title or the author of the
>> lexicon.
>
> My wife's maternal grandmother is in her 80's, and grew up/lives in
> south Georgia (Douglas, Nicholls).  My wife picked up from her side
> of the family "kyarn", meaning carrion (note the "r").  The best
> description
> is kyarn is what a dog will roll in just before it
> comes inside and rubs against you.  The stinkier, the better.

Now that you've brought it to my attention, it could well have been the
"kyarn" spelling that I saw in the lexicon. My "knowledge" of English
of the Ozark/Appalachian type has been gained primarily from comic
strips like "Li'l Abner" and "[Barney Google and] Snuffy Smith," and
from TV shows like Jerry Springer. Interestingly, while in the Army, I
had a (white) Appalachian-speaking buddy for whom "yon" as an adjective
was a living part of his vocabulary. He could say things like, "Let's
go have a beer in yon bar." This was in 1961. Down home in East Texas,
we blacks used "yon" only adverbially in exclamations like "Yon he go!"
Otherwise, we used "yonder" and even then still only adverbially: "He
use to live (over) yonder; look (over) yonder!; they went (over)
yonder/went yonder (way)."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  6 03:46:26 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 23:46:26 -0400
Subject: Blue Rhine, Black Forest(1930) (German cuisine, 2 of 2)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.234626.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BLUE RHINE
BLACK FOREST
A HAND- AN DAY-BOOK
by Louis Untermeyer
New York: Harcourt, Brace and Company
1930


Pg. 240:  SOUP (SUPPE)
Fleischbruhe: broth
Gemusesuppe: vegetable
Gerstensuppe: barley soup
Grunkernsuppe: grain soup
Kerbelsuppe: cream of chevril
Kraftbruhe: bouillon
Linsensupper: lentil soup
Muschelsuppe: clam chowder
Rindfleischsuppe: beef and vegetable soup
Schottische Suppe: Scotch broth
Spargelsuppe: cream of asparagus

   FISH (FISCH)
Austern: oysters
Backforellen: brook trout
Ruckling: smoked white fish
Forellen: trout
Heilbutte: halibut
Herring: herring
Hummer: lobster
Kabeljau: cod
Krabben: shrimps
Krebse: crabs
Rauchherring: smoked herring
Rheinsalm: Rhine salmon
Rollmops: rolled pickled herring
Salm (Lachs): salmon
Sardellen: anchovies
Scholle: flounder
Seezunge: sole
Steinbutt: turbot
Zander: pike, perch

   MEAT (FLEISCH)
Deutsches Beefsteak: chopped (Hamburg) steak
Ente: duck
Hammellfleisch: mutton
Hammellrippchen: mutton chop
Italienischer Salat: cold meat salad spiced
(Pg. 241--ed.)
Junghahn gebraten: young roast chicken
Jungschweinsbraten: roast suckling pig
Gans: goose
Gansleber: goose liver (pate de fois gras)
Gefullter Weisskohl: stuffed cabbage with meat
Kalbsbrust: breast of veal
Kalbskopf: calf's head
Klabsleber: calf's liver
Klabsnierenbraten: loin of veal
Kalte platte; kalte Aufschnitt: cold meats
Klops: meat balls
Kucken: chicken
Lammkoteletten: lamb chops
Leberknodel: liver dumplings
Mastochsenfleisch: tenderloin of beef
Mettwurst: country sausage
Ochsenfleisch: boiled beef
Ochsenrippenstuck: sirloin of beef
Pfeffertopf: Westphalian pepper-pot
Ragout: stew
Rebhuhn: partridge
Rehbraten: roast venison
Rehkeule: leg of venison
Rehrucken: saddle of venison
Rindfleisch: boiled beef
Rippenstuck: steak
Sauerbraten: spiced, steamed beef
Schinken: ham
Scweinepokelfleisch: salt pork
Schweinskotelett: pork chop
Speck: bacon
Taube: pigeon (squab)
Truthahn: turkey
Wiener Schnitzel: breaded veal cutlet
Wurst: sausage

   VEGETABLES (GEMUSE)
Beete (Rote Ruben): beets
Bohnen: beans
Blumenkohl: cauliflower
Erbsen: peas
Erbsen und Wurzeln: peas and carrots
Gurken: cucumbers (pickles)
Karotten (Mohrrube): carrots
Kartoffel: potatoes
Katoffelbrei, Kartoffelmus: mashed potatoes
Kartoffelklose: potatoe dumplings
Kohl: cabbage
Kopfsalad: head lettuce
Kraut: cabbage, herb
Krauter: herbs
Meerettich: horse radish
Perlbohnen: string beans
Pfifferlingen: small mushrooms
Pilz (pilzling): mushroom
Reis: rice
Rosenkohl: Burssels sprouts
Rote Ruben: beets
(Pg. 242--ed.)
Rotkraut: red cabbage
Rube: turnip
Salat: salad
Schnittlauch: chives
Sellerie: celery
Spargel: asparagus
Spinat: spinach
Sprossen: Brussels sprouts
Tomatte: tomato
Wachsbohnen: wax beans
Wirsinggemuse: spring cabbage
Wirsingkohl: savoy cabbage
Zweibel: onions

   SWEETS, DESSERTS (SUSSPEISE, NACHTISCH)
Apfelmus: applesauce
Apfeltorte: apple-pie
Cremeschnitte: cream-layer (Napoleon)
Eis: ice
Frucheis: fruit ice
Geback: small cakes
Gefrorenes: ice-cream
Hornchen: sugared rolls, a sweetened _croissant_
Kase: cheese
Kaseplatte: assorted cheeses
Kompott: stewed fruit
Kuchen: cake
Makronen: macaroons
Merinken: kisses (meringue)
Pfannkuchen: pancakes
Rahmeis: ice-cream
Schlagsahne: whipped cream
Schnee-Eier: meringue in custard (Floating island)
Schillerlocken: cream rolls
Strudel: Strudel.  A pastry which has no Englsih counterpart.  There are several varieties, the best of which is the _ausgezogene_, composed of a sheet of extremely thin dough.  This sheet is pulled out by hand over a large table, spread with fruit (apples or cherries), nuts, sugar, and butter--sometimes a cottage cheese mixture known as _Topfenstrudel_--rolled and baked.  It is then sliced in portions for epicures in Heaven.
Torte: layer cake
Waffeln: sweet biscuits--sometimes waffles, but usually sugar crackers
Windbeutel: cream puff

   FRUIT, BERRIES, ETC> (OBST, BEERE, U. S. W.)
Apfel: apple
Apfelsine: orange
Aprikose: apricot
Ananas Erdbeeren: large strawberries
Ananas: pineapple
Backpfaumen: stewed prunes
Birne: pear
Blaubeeren: blueberries
Brombeeren: blackberries
Erdbeeren: strawberries
Heidelbeeren: huckleberries
Himbeeren: raspberries
Johannesbeeren: currants
Kirsche: cherry
Kronsbeeren: cranberries
(Pg. 243--ed.)
Melonen: melons
Mirabelle: small yellow plum
Pfirsich: peach
Pflaume: plum
Preiselbeeren: red whortleberries, small cranberries
Ringlotte: green gage
Stachelbeeren: gooseberries
Wald Erdbeeren: small wild strawberries
Zwetchgen: blue plums, prunes

Pg. 246:  APPENDIX C  THE BLACK FOREST ANTOHOLOGY
Pg. 247:  ANCIENT ADAGE
   _Away with recipes in books!_
   _Hunger is the best of cooks._
   The ensuing related verses were found in various villages.  The tone of one or two is suspiciously modern, but the general idiom--to say nothing of the subject--attest the authenticity.

Pg. 248:  TO (sic?) MANY COOKS
   _Keep love a-stewing, keep soup in the pot._
   _Both are enjoyable only when hot._

Pg. 252:  RECIPE
   _For betrothal parties, this may be of use:_
   _Don't season your sauce till you've picked your goose._

Pg. 253:  COOKED GOOSE
   _Hurry from love and marriage, hurry._
   _Run while you can from your desire._
   _The cooked goose has no time to worry_
   _Whether it's frying-pan or fire._

Pg. 253:  OLD AND YOUNG
   _An old wine and a young wife_
   _Will keep you dancing most of your life._

Pg. 254:  WEDDING CAKE
   _How to bake_
   _The wedding cake:_
   _First you mix_
   _Five or six_
   _Eggs with honey,_
   _Milk and many_
   _A homely pound_
   _(Finely ground)_
   _Of humdrum_
   _Domestic crumb._
   _Then add some_
   _Hint of clove,_
   _Traces of_
   _Romantic love._
   _Now drop in_
   _A shred of thin_
   _Forbidden fruit,_
   _Flavor to suit._
Pg. 255:
   _Add, for spice,_
   _A dash of lies._
   _Put in mold--_
   _And serve it cold._

Pg. 255:  KILLJOYS
   _Bread would be cake and beer would be nectar_
   _If it weren't for love and the tax-collector._

Pg. 256:  DISGRUNTLED GUEST
   _The meat is high,_
   _The bread is dry,_
   _The wine is bitter_
   _And so am I._

Pg. 257:  NEVERTHELESS
   _The world's a mess;_
      _Living's no good._
   _Nevertheless,_
      _You eat your food._

Pg. 257:  SAUERKRAUT
   _Life is as heavy as sauerkraut--and it_
   _Is pleasant to him who can stomach and stand it._

Pg. 257:  BARNYARD MOTTO
   _When the hen lays and the cocks carouse_
   _Nothing evil can touch your house._

Pg. 261:  A SIGN-BOARD
   _"Welcome!  Welcome!" says mine host--_
   _And who pays best is welcome most._
   Food and drink are, not unnaturally, given a place in the short and simple iambics of the poor.  Drinking-songs, though not quite extinct, are rare--radio and the phonographs have invaded the taverns--but the ancient jokes and rhymed saws hold their own.

Pg. 261:  COMPENSATION
   _Life, alas,_
      _Is very drear._
   _Up with the glass!_
      _Down with the beer!_

Pg. 261:  ON A COFFEE-CUP
   _Honor to Eve whose wisdom is acted;_
   _Honor to Solomon and his queen;_
   _But glory to him who first extracted_
   _Magic from the coffee-bean._

Pg. 261:  IDEAL GUEST
   _The favorite guest is one who's able_
   _To leave no crumb upon the table._


(ALL RIGHT!  NOW WHERE IS THE BLACK FOREST CAKE???--ed.)


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Jun  6 03:57:35 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 23:57:35 -0400
Subject: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
In-Reply-To: <200406051848.1bwMLP3Xu3NZFlr0@killdeer>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.235735.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks for the suggestion. BTW, back in the 'Fifties, I did my basic at
Leonard Wood, of which I have many fond memories, like the time our
company spent the entire night with flashlights policing up the parade
ground, followed by a full day of training in the 95-degree temperature
of August in Missouri. It was at Leonard Wood that I first heard the
word, "dork." At that time, its only meaning was "penis."

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 5, 2004, at 9:35 PM, Dave Hause wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Dave Hause <dwhause at JOBE.NET>
> Subject:      Re: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> If you are hunting the book, it might be Dale Freeman's "non-books"
> "How to
> talk Pure Ozark...'Thout Hardly Even Tryin'" parts I and II which I
> got from
> the SMSU bookstore a year or so ago.
> Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
> Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wilson Gray" <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET>
>
> Nevertheless, about 35 years later, while thumbing through a book on
> the
> vocabulary of *Ozark* English, what before my wondering eyes should
> appear
> but the citation, "kyahn. n. carrion." It blew my mind, to say the
> least.
> Unfortunately, I'm unable to recall the title or the author of the
> lexicon.
>


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Jun  6 04:03:01 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 00:03:01 -0400
Subject: Blue Rhine, Black Forest(1930) (German cuisine, 2 of 2)
In-Reply-To: <200406052046.1bwOCi7h83NZFji0@eagle>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.000301.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What? No mention of Russische Eier? Surely the most delicious form of
deviled eggs on earth!

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 5, 2004, at 11:46 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Blue Rhine, Black Forest(1930) (German cuisine, 2 of 2)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> BLUE RHINE
> BLACK FOREST
> A HAND- AN DAY-BOOK
> by Louis Untermeyer
> New York: Harcourt, Brace and Company
> 1930
>
>
> Pg. 240:  SOUP (SUPPE)
> Fleischbruhe: broth
> Gemusesuppe: vegetable
> Gerstensuppe: barley soup
> Grunkernsuppe: grain soup
> Kerbelsuppe: cream of chevril
> Kraftbruhe: bouillon
> Linsensupper: lentil soup
> Muschelsuppe: clam chowder
> Rindfleischsuppe: beef and vegetable soup
> Schottische Suppe: Scotch broth
> Spargelsuppe: cream of asparagus
>
>    FISH (FISCH)
> Austern: oysters
> Backforellen: brook trout
> Ruckling: smoked white fish
> Forellen: trout
> Heilbutte: halibut
> Herring: herring
> Hummer: lobster
> Kabeljau: cod
> Krabben: shrimps
> Krebse: crabs
> Rauchherring: smoked herring
> Rheinsalm: Rhine salmon
> Rollmops: rolled pickled herring
> Salm (Lachs): salmon
> Sardellen: anchovies
> Scholle: flounder
> Seezunge: sole
> Steinbutt: turbot
> Zander: pike, perch
>
>    MEAT (FLEISCH)
> Deutsches Beefsteak: chopped (Hamburg) steak
> Ente: duck
> Hammellfleisch: mutton
> Hammellrippchen: mutton chop
> Italienischer Salat: cold meat salad spiced
> (Pg. 241--ed.)
> Junghahn gebraten: young roast chicken
> Jungschweinsbraten: roast suckling pig
> Gans: goose
> Gansleber: goose liver (pate de fois gras)
> Gefullter Weisskohl: stuffed cabbage with meat
> Kalbsbrust: breast of veal
> Kalbskopf: calf's head
> Klabsleber: calf's liver
> Klabsnierenbraten: loin of veal
> Kalte platte; kalte Aufschnitt: cold meats
> Klops: meat balls
> Kucken: chicken
> Lammkoteletten: lamb chops
> Leberknodel: liver dumplings
> Mastochsenfleisch: tenderloin of beef
> Mettwurst: country sausage
> Ochsenfleisch: boiled beef
> Ochsenrippenstuck: sirloin of beef
> Pfeffertopf: Westphalian pepper-pot
> Ragout: stew
> Rebhuhn: partridge
> Rehbraten: roast venison
> Rehkeule: leg of venison
> Rehrucken: saddle of venison
> Rindfleisch: boiled beef
> Rippenstuck: steak
> Sauerbraten: spiced, steamed beef
> Schinken: ham
> Scweinepokelfleisch: salt pork
> Schweinskotelett: pork chop
> Speck: bacon
> Taube: pigeon (squab)
> Truthahn: turkey
> Wiener Schnitzel: breaded veal cutlet
> Wurst: sausage
>
>    VEGETABLES (GEMUSE)
> Beete (Rote Ruben): beets
> Bohnen: beans
> Blumenkohl: cauliflower
> Erbsen: peas
> Erbsen und Wurzeln: peas and carrots
> Gurken: cucumbers (pickles)
> Karotten (Mohrrube): carrots
> Kartoffel: potatoes
> Katoffelbrei, Kartoffelmus: mashed potatoes
> Kartoffelklose: potatoe dumplings
> Kohl: cabbage
> Kopfsalad: head lettuce
> Kraut: cabbage, herb
> Krauter: herbs
> Meerettich: horse radish
> Perlbohnen: string beans
> Pfifferlingen: small mushrooms
> Pilz (pilzling): mushroom
> Reis: rice
> Rosenkohl: Burssels sprouts
> Rote Ruben: beets
> (Pg. 242--ed.)
> Rotkraut: red cabbage
> Rube: turnip
> Salat: salad
> Schnittlauch: chives
> Sellerie: celery
> Spargel: asparagus
> Spinat: spinach
> Sprossen: Brussels sprouts
> Tomatte: tomato
> Wachsbohnen: wax beans
> Wirsinggemuse: spring cabbage
> Wirsingkohl: savoy cabbage
> Zweibel: onions
>
>    SWEETS, DESSERTS (SUSSPEISE, NACHTISCH)
> Apfelmus: applesauce
> Apfeltorte: apple-pie
> Cremeschnitte: cream-layer (Napoleon)
> Eis: ice
> Frucheis: fruit ice
> Geback: small cakes
> Gefrorenes: ice-cream
> Hornchen: sugared rolls, a sweetened _croissant_
> Kase: cheese
> Kaseplatte: assorted cheeses
> Kompott: stewed fruit
> Kuchen: cake
> Makronen: macaroons
> Merinken: kisses (meringue)
> Pfannkuchen: pancakes
> Rahmeis: ice-cream
> Schlagsahne: whipped cream
> Schnee-Eier: meringue in custard (Floating island)
> Schillerlocken: cream rolls
> Strudel: Strudel.  A pastry which has no Englsih counterpart.  There
> are several varieties, the best of which is the _ausgezogene_,
> composed of a sheet of extremely thin dough.  This sheet is pulled out
> by hand over a large table, spread with fruit (apples or cherries),
> nuts, sugar, and butter--sometimes a cottage cheese mixture known as
> _Topfenstrudel_--rolled and baked.  It is then sliced in portions for
> epicures in Heaven.
> Torte: layer cake
> Waffeln: sweet biscuits--sometimes waffles, but usually sugar crackers
> Windbeutel: cream puff
>
>    FRUIT, BERRIES, ETC> (OBST, BEERE, U. S. W.)
> Apfel: apple
> Apfelsine: orange
> Aprikose: apricot
> Ananas Erdbeeren: large strawberries
> Ananas: pineapple
> Backpfaumen: stewed prunes
> Birne: pear
> Blaubeeren: blueberries
> Brombeeren: blackberries
> Erdbeeren: strawberries
> Heidelbeeren: huckleberries
> Himbeeren: raspberries
> Johannesbeeren: currants
> Kirsche: cherry
> Kronsbeeren: cranberries
> (Pg. 243--ed.)
> Melonen: melons
> Mirabelle: small yellow plum
> Pfirsich: peach
> Pflaume: plum
> Preiselbeeren: red whortleberries, small cranberries
> Ringlotte: green gage
> Stachelbeeren: gooseberries
> Wald Erdbeeren: small wild strawberries
> Zwetchgen: blue plums, prunes
>
> Pg. 246:  APPENDIX C  THE BLACK FOREST ANTOHOLOGY
> Pg. 247:  ANCIENT ADAGE
>    _Away with recipes in books!_
>    _Hunger is the best of cooks._
>    The ensuing related verses were found in various villages.  The
> tone of one or two is suspiciously modern, but the general idiom--to
> say nothing of the subject--attest the authenticity.
>
> Pg. 248:  TO (sic?) MANY COOKS
>    _Keep love a-stewing, keep soup in the pot._
>    _Both are enjoyable only when hot._
>
> Pg. 252:  RECIPE
>    _For betrothal parties, this may be of use:_
>    _Don't season your sauce till you've picked your goose._
>
> Pg. 253:  COOKED GOOSE
>    _Hurry from love and marriage, hurry._
>    _Run while you can from your desire._
>    _The cooked goose has no time to worry_
>    _Whether it's frying-pan or fire._
>
> Pg. 253:  OLD AND YOUNG
>    _An old wine and a young wife_
>    _Will keep you dancing most of your life._
>
> Pg. 254:  WEDDING CAKE
>    _How to bake_
>    _The wedding cake:_
>    _First you mix_
>    _Five or six_
>    _Eggs with honey,_
>    _Milk and many_
>    _A homely pound_
>    _(Finely ground)_
>    _Of humdrum_
>    _Domestic crumb._
>    _Then add some_
>    _Hint of clove,_
>    _Traces of_
>    _Romantic love._
>    _Now drop in_
>    _A shred of thin_
>    _Forbidden fruit,_
>    _Flavor to suit._
> Pg. 255:
>    _Add, for spice,_
>    _A dash of lies._
>    _Put in mold--_
>    _And serve it cold._
>
> Pg. 255:  KILLJOYS
>    _Bread would be cake and beer would be nectar_
>    _If it weren't for love and the tax-collector._
>
> Pg. 256:  DISGRUNTLED GUEST
>    _The meat is high,_
>    _The bread is dry,_
>    _The wine is bitter_
>    _And so am I._
>
> Pg. 257:  NEVERTHELESS
>    _The world's a mess;_
>       _Living's no good._
>    _Nevertheless,_
>       _You eat your food._
>
> Pg. 257:  SAUERKRAUT
>    _Life is as heavy as sauerkraut--and it_
>    _Is pleasant to him who can stomach and stand it._
>
> Pg. 257:  BARNYARD MOTTO
>    _When the hen lays and the cocks carouse_
>    _Nothing evil can touch your house._
>
> Pg. 261:  A SIGN-BOARD
>    _"Welcome!  Welcome!" says mine host--_
>    _And who pays best is welcome most._
>    Food and drink are, not unnaturally, given a place in the short and
> simple iambics of the poor.  Drinking-songs, though not quite extinct,
> are rare--radio and the phonographs have invaded the taverns--but the
> ancient jokes and rhymed saws hold their own.
>
> Pg. 261:  COMPENSATION
>    _Life, alas,_
>       _Is very drear._
>    _Up with the glass!_
>       _Down with the beer!_
>
> Pg. 261:  ON A COFFEE-CUP
>    _Honor to Eve whose wisdom is acted;_
>    _Honor to Solomon and his queen;_
>    _But glory to him who first extracted_
>    _Magic from the coffee-bean._
>
> Pg. 261:  IDEAL GUEST
>    _The favorite guest is one who's able_
>    _To leave no crumb upon the table._
>
>
> (ALL RIGHT!  NOW WHERE IS THE BLACK FOREST CAKE???--ed.)
>


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Jun  6 04:14:57 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 00:14:57 -0400
Subject: kyarn
In-Reply-To: <200406051804.1bwM5o49I3NZFlr0@killdeer>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.001457.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 5, 2004, at 9:04 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
> Subject:      Re: kyarn
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Several such variants are shown in DARE under "carrion".
>
> -- Doug Wilson

Sure enough, here it is. Well, I guess that pretty much explains why I
didn't find it under "kyon," "kyahn," or "kyarn." Thanks for the tip.

-Wilson Gray


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  6 05:54:12 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 01:54:12 -0400
Subject: Spoiler (1957 politics, 1928 boxing)
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.015412.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  Oh, all right, I'll talk about "spoiler" in this Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES "On Language" column.  It's before 1959 (political sense) and before the 1940s (sports), and it does appear to come from sports.
  Easier to check are "role of spoiler" or "spoiler role" with "election."  "Spoiler" was used first possibly in boxing.


(NEW YORK TIMES)
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/06/magazine/06ONLANGUAGE.html

Spoiler, a slashing word in politics, is apparently of recent vintage. When the conservative columnist William F. Buckley ran for mayor of New York against the liberal Republican John V. Lindsay in 1965, thereby splitting the expected vote against the Democrat, Abe Beame, The New York Times observed, ''William F. Buckley Jr., the Conservative nominee, has dropped any pretense that his role in the campaign is other than that of a spoiler.''
(...)
The word, in roughly its present political sense, may have come from sports. I recall from days in the Ebbets Field bleachers (but cannot find a citation for) its use in baseball in the 40's to describe a hitter who, in the final inning of a game, ''spoiled'' a pitcher's no-hitter by getting a hit. The O.E.D. has a 1948 item from The Baltimore Sun about boxing's Jersey Joe Walcott: ''In the language of the ring he is known as a 'spoiler,' the type of fighter who can make an opponent look bad but who can never look good himself.'' In 1950, The Sun's sports pages applied the word to pro football: ''In meeting San Francisco here . . . the Colts will get a crack at their biggest 'spoiler' of the past two seasons.''

Political etymologists need help. Earliest use I can find -- though not quite in the sought-after sense of ''vote splitter'' -- is by The Times's Anthony Lewis in 1959, who recounted a legislative maneuver of Senate Majority Leader Lyndon Johnson to outfox Democratic liberals: ''The Senator from Texas obviously enjoyed the role of spoiler hugely.''



(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("spoiler" + "election" + "win")
1. FORGING HER OWN CHAINS; THE SOUTH BENT ON RE-ENTERING HER OLD CONDITION. Taking a Course That Threatens the Disruption of the Party to Which She Owes Her Political Freedom -- Making Probable by Her Blind Adherence to Free Coinage the Re-establishment of Negro Domi- nation and Military Rule.
New York Times (1857. Jun 28, 1896. p. 5 (1 page)
   ...the giving over of the South to the political spoiler.

2. District Boy Trails From Start of Bout; Italian Exhibits Speed; Torrance Technical K.O. Victim.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 10, 1937. p. 15 (1 page):
   Murray Kasner, occupying his customary role of spoiler, marred the evening from Jack Torrance's viewpoint when he laid the retired Olympic shot-putter on the canvas at the end of the fifth round to win by a technical knockout.

3. KEATING IS TARGET OF CONSERVATIVES; Party Will Pick Candidate to Oppose Him in November KEATING IS TARGET OF CONSERVATIVES
By RONALD SULLIVAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 26, 1964. p. 1 (2 pages)
Second page (Pg. 32, col. 2):  But perhaps most important, the Conservatives are looking to the future and, they hope, a stronger role in the selection of Republican candidates.  They are willing to play the role of a "spoiler--" lose an election, but win a future battle.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("role of spoiler")
1. District Boy Trails From Start of Bout; Italian Exhibits Speed; Torrance Technical K.O. Victim.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 10, 1937. p. 15 (1 page)

2. Busy Week Ahead for Heurich Five; Brewers Have Chance To Spoil Standsings Of League Leaders
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 26, 1939. p. X4 (1 page)

3. Cards Out To Avenge 1939 Defeat; Students Give Team Pep Rally; Bergman Sends Squad Through Drill
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 10, 1940. p. 22 (1 page)

4. FELLER TOPS YANKS WITH NO-HITTER, 1-0; Six Reach Base, 5 on Walks, as the Indians' Ace Hurls Classic for Second Time 38,112 THRILLED BY FEAT 11 New Yorkers Are Struck Out--Home Run by Hayes in Ninth Sets Back Bevens Bears Down All the Way Keller Ever Dangerous Gives Credit to Hayes Has Six One-Hitters
By LOUIS EFFRAT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 1, 1946. p. 41 (1 page)

5. SENATORS DEFEAT YANKS IN 12TH, 4-3; Newsom, Going Route for 4th Victory, Makes Winning Run on Vernon's Long Single BOMBERS GET 3 IN SECOND Chandler, Hurling 10 Innings, Fails to Maintain Lead and Murphy Loses in Relief Priddy's Fly Falls Safely Robinson Launches Attack Griffith Receives Citation
By LOUIS EFFRAT Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 8, 1946. p. 32 (1 page)

6. Caps Face Celtics Here
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 29, 1947. p. 10 (1 page)

7. RANGERS TO MEET TORONTO TONIGHT; Blue Shirts Seeking Season's Third Victory Over Leaf Sextet in Garden Clash
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 28, 1947. p. S4 (1 page)

8. Detroit Halts Cleveland by 4-3, Hutchinson Outpitching Lemon; Indians' Only Runs Off Tiger Righthander Counted on Homers by Doby, Keltner and Gordon -- Wakefield and Wertz Star
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 25, 1948. p. 12 (1 page)

9. Hutch, Wertz Star In Detroit Victory; Indians Boot Chance for Lead
By Joe Reichler. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 25, 1948. p. 11 (2 pages)

10. Bruins Oppose Santa Clara in Battle of Spoilers Today; Unbeaten Uclans Favored to Dump Foes in Coliseum Gridiron Tussle
PAUL ZIMMERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 15, 1949. p. B1 (1 page)

14. Bladensburg Tries Role Of Spoiler
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 17, 1950. p. B8 (1 page)

15. Sports of The Times; Back to Fundamentals He Sees the Light Quick Switch
By ARTHUR DALEY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 25, 1951. p. 40 (1 page)

16. This Morning
With Shirley Povich. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 23, 1951. p. 13 (1 page)

17. Princeton Captures Eastern Basketball League Title by Defeating Columbia; LAST-PERIOD SURGE BEATS LIONS, 70-65 Princeton Erases Nine-Point Edge Rolled Up by Columbia in the Third Quarter CLINCHES N. C. A. A. BERTH Reutlinger, Emery and Cooper Star in Rally -- Tritschler Sets a Tiger Record
By JOSEPH M. SHEEHANSpecial to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 13, 1952. p. 36 (1 page)

18. GIANTS HOPE TO USE LONG HERE SUNDAY; Menasco Available for Action on Defense Against Eagles in Polo Grounds Game
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 25, 1953. p. 31 (1 page)

19. Eastern Hurts Wilson's Title Hopes, 73-65
By Dave Kelly Post Reporter. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 3, 1954. p. 15 (1 page)

20. CHAMPIONS DIVIDE; Yankees Beat Orioles, 3-1, After They Bow to Turley by 2-1 YANKS WIN BY 3-1 AFTER 2-1 DEFEAT
By JOSEPH M. SHEEHAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 6, 1954. p. S1 (2 pages)

21. Sophomore Scores Two TDs Against Gamecocks; Maryland Beats South Carolina, 20-0
By Herb Heft Staff Reporter. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Oct 31, 1954. p. C1 (2 pages)

22. Ramos Will Try to Halt Chisox for Nats Tonight
By Bob Addie Staff Reporter. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jul 29, 1955. p. 35 (1 page)

23. Nats Turn Attention to Last-Place Baltimore
By Bob Addie Staff Reporter. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Aug 9, 1955. p. 11 (1 page)

24. Porterfield Tries to Beat Yanks Today
By Bob Addie Staff Reporter. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Sep 2, 1955. p. 31 (1 page)

25. Piazza Ties It on Pass To Comacho
By Jerry Davis Staff Reporter. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Nov 5, 1956. p. A16 (2 pages)

26. Elis Can Win Title in Ivy League
By Shirley Povich Staff Reporter. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Nov 24, 1956. p. A10 (1 page)

27. This Morning...
With Shirley Povich. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Nov 14, 1957. p. D1 (1 page)

28. LINCOLN ROAD WINS; 2-5 CHOICE FIRST Lincoln Road Captures Jersey Stakes, First Victory of 1958 LINCOLN ROAD, 2-5, SCORES IN JERSEY
By LOUIS EFFRATSpecial to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 25, 1958. p. S1 (2 pages)

29. SENATORS ENJOY MOMENT OF AMITY; But the Era of Good Feeling Fails to Outlast Opening Prayer and Ritual
By ANTHONY LEWISSpecial to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 8, 1959. p. 15 (1 page)

(MENTIONED IN TODAY'S "ON LANGUAGE" COLUMN--ed.)

30. Drysdale Gets Call Tonight Against Phils
FRANK FINCH. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 9, 1959. p. C1 (1 page)

31. Eagles Out to 'Get Les Richter' Because of Van Brocklin Feud
CAL WHORTON. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 21, 1959. p. A3 (1 page)

32. ANAHEIM CAGERS NOW TOP LEAGUE; Santa Ana's Forfeit of Games Played by L. J. Wheeler Alters Standings
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 4, 1960. p. D8 (1 page)

33. County's Spikers to Clash at OCC; Santa Ana Probable Choice to Take Triangular Meet Honors
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 24, 1960. p. D10 (1 page)

34. Diablos Take on Role of Spoilers
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 16, 1961. p. F12 (1 page)

35. YALE, VILLANOVA I.C.4-A FAVORITES; Elis Rely on Stack, Carroll and Mack in Title Track at Garden Tonight
By DEANE McGOWEN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 11, 1961. p. 16 (1 page)

36. Minnesota Beaten, 5-3; 3 ORIOLE HOMERS TOPPLE TWINS, 5-3
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 23, 1962. p. 199 (2 pages)

37. Orioles Win, Twins' Hopes About Over
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Sep 23, 1962. p. C3 (1 page)

38. Spoiler Tribe Out to Upset USC Today
PAUL ZIMMERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 10, 1962. p. A1 (1 page)

39. U.N. Border Mission
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jun 7, 1964. p. E6 (1 page):
   The interesting point is that two of the countries which often have played the role of spoilers in SOutheast Asia found themselves able to contribute, or to allow, a temporary balm.

40. Senator Luce?
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 7, 1964. p. 28 (1 page):
   While Mr. Goldwater and his national managers are engaged in hot pursuit of party harmony among all Republicans, the Conservative party in New York--which, if that is possible, stands to the right of the G. O. P. Presidential nominee--seems bent on playing the role of spoiler.  By running a third-party candidate against Representative John V. Lindsay in Manhattan's 17th District and by proposing to nominate its own substitute for Mr. Keating, it may without any logical expectation of electing anybody still chip away enough normally Republican votes to give the Democrats a victory.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("role of spoiler" + "election")
Holland Evening Sentinel - 8/27/1957
...an outside chance OF playing the ROLE OF "SPOILER" for a second time. Be ran.....more solid control OF the Senate. ELECTION OF Kohler would put Republii..
Holland, Michigan   Tuesday, August 27, 1957  829 k
Pg. 6, col. 1:  Running independently are Howard Boyle, a "McCarthy Republican;" Mrs. Georgia Cozzini and Douglas Wheaton.
   Boyle was given an outside chance of playing the role of "spoiler" for a second time.
   he ran in the Republican Senate primary in 1956 as a backer of McCarthy and drew 19,800 votes.  Boyle's total hurt the chances of Former Rep. Glenn R. (Col. 2--ed.) Davis, who lost to Sen. Alexander Wiley by 10,000 votes in that race.

Walla Walla Union Bulletin - 4/19/1948
...has an excellent chance to play the ROLE OF SPOILER when he neets world.....Umapine high school ;tudent body held ELECTION OF OFficers Friday with Fred..
Walla Walla, Washington   Monday, April 19, 1948  934 k

Lowell Sun - 11/3/1965
...the Conservative candidate cast in the ROLE OF SPOILER OF Lindsay's bid in a.....Buckley did achieve one OF his ELECTION goals in that his 13 per cent..
Lowell, Massachusetts   Wednesday, November 03, 1965  743 k

Valley Independent - 10/2/1964
...District Teams Rostraver Eyes ROLE OF SPOILER It took Rostraver High.....the State Legislature in the November ELECTION. "Consequently, they indirectly..
Monessen, Pennsylvania   Friday, October 02, 1964  729 k

Valley Independent - 1/11/1965
...performance and ahead to playing the ROLE OF SPOILER in the Western Division.....0-L 'Sparks' Slated To Meet Tonight ELECTION OF OFficers will highlight a..
Monessen, Pennsylvania   Monday, January 11, 1965  772 k

East Liverpool Review - 1/10/1951
...Steubenville's Big Red, who played the ROLE OF "SPOILER" last The defending.....and Birkholz. Also on the schedule Is ELECTION OF one director. William Murray..
East Liverpool, Ohio   Wednesday, January 10, 1951  511 k

Hawarden Independent - 10/15/1953
...the week before, they played the ROLE OF SPOILER for the second time in.....OF the Independent party seeking ELECTION November 3 over the other..
Hawarden, Iowa   Thursday, October 15, 1953  835 k


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("spoiler" + "baseball"/"fighter")
Coshocton Tribune - 6/20/1928
...the title. Risko is known rather as a SPOILER of good fighter than an.....and Emniett. Reilly, zanesville's BASEBALL boss, standing pat .on their..
Coshocton, Ohio   Wednesday, June 20, 1928  1013 k

Coshocton Tribune - 12/27/1929
...10 via knockouts. Ribio, citibbed the -SPOILER" as a result of his habit of.....to one's success but. then, BASEBALL clubs never were distinguished..
Coshocton, Ohio   Friday, December 27, 1929  695 k

Coshocton Tribune - 12/11/1930
...going nowhere; the lion-hearted "SPOILER." Johnny Risko of Cleveland is.....Sticker Solution By EDDIE BYAN BASEBALL, that great national pastime..
Coshocton, Ohio   Thursday, December 11, 1930  779 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 3/30/1931
...ring-time tonight. Risko, called the "SPOILER" because he has ruined the title.....respects were paid by '.scores of BASEBALL magnates and friends. The body..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Monday, March 30, 1931  1077 k

Bee - 2/25/1933
...to take the 'Baker Boy' Still 'SPOILER' of Heavywight Contenders by.....nlghways, I am beginning to take my BASEBALL seriously. Have decided to play..
Danville, Virginia   Saturday, February 25, 1933  705 k

Bismarck Tribune - 3/29/1933
...March (fi Johnny Risko, the "Old SPOILER" of heavyweight championship.....Dale Gear. i A meeting of Dickinson BASEBALL enGear Wednesday said Des..
Bismarck, North Dakota   Wednesday, March 29, 1933  644 k

News - 6/28/1933
...have to run triplehave said, the mere BASEBALL changes, I BASEBALL down in the.....of Niagara, Alls ssaadog OB ibe old SPOILER. tbe baata yellisg. as a great..
Frederick, Maryland   Wednesday, June 28, 1933  626 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  6 08:53:15 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 04:53:15 EDT
Subject: Great Communicator (1976)
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.045315.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GREAT COMMUNICATOR--23,900 Google hits, 7,320 Google Groups hits
GREAT COMMUNICATOR + REAGAN--6,930 Google hits, 2,310 Google Groups hits
GREAT COMMUNICATOR + MCLUHAN--52 Google hits, 2 Google Groups hits


   "Great Communicator" was the popular nickname of the late President Ronald
Reagan.  Was it coined for Ronald Reagan in THE NEW YORK TIMES?  Was it
coined for Marshall McLuhan in THE NEW YORK TIMES?


(GOOGLE NEWS)
News results for "great communicator" - View today's top stories
America Mourns 'Great Communicator' Ronald Reagan - Reuters - 35 minutes ago
Reporter invited to hear 'Great Communicator' - Minneapolis Star Tribune
(subscription) - 5 hours ago
'Great Communicator' Redefined Nation's, World's Agenda - Washington Post - 7
hours ago


(NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY CATALOG)
1       Ronald Reagan : the wisdom and humour of the Great Communicator /
edited by Frederick J. Ryan Jr.     1995
2       Ronald Reagan : the great communicator / Kurt Ritter and David Henry
; foreword by Bernard K. Duffy.      1992
3       The Reagan presidency : an actor's finest performance / Wilbur Edel.
    c1992
4       The great communicator / by Jim Borgman ; with an introduction by
Susan Stamberg.     c1985


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Post Crescent - 2/1/1976
...and not caught on. Ronald REAGAN is GREAT 'COMMUNICATOR. Eastern liberals
be.....making a GREAT mistake if they underestimate..
Appleton, Wisconsin Sunday, February 01, 1976  574 k
Pg. B-2, col. 3, "Your guide to cliches for '76" by Russell Baker:
Q:  Would you tell us the appropriate phrases for uttering about the other
candidates during conversations about the campaign?
A:  Gladly.  When referring to Birch Bayh, the appropriate phrase is "the
Hoosier Democrat."  Senator Jackson "lacks charisma" and "has not caught on."
Ronald Reagan is "a great communicator."

Chronicle Telegram - 6/21/1981
...cutting plan. REAGAN'S SKILLS as "the GREAT COMMUNICATOR" will be used
again.....the bridge is there or not. I think a GREAT many of us would like to
see the..
Elyria, Ohio Sunday, June 21, 1981  502 k

Mountain Democrat - 8/14/1981
...called President Ronald REAGAN a "GREAT COMMUNICATOR and a GREAT man..
Placerville, California Friday, August 14, 1981  280 k

Chronicle Telegram - 12/9/1981
...Behind his back, they call him the GREAT COMMUNICATOR. Anyway,
Congress.....administration. President Ronald REAGAN began his tenure in office by..
Elyria, Ohio Wednesday, December 09, 1981  455 k

Frederick Post - 12/27/1983
...The magazine dubbed REAGAN "the GREAT COMMUNICATOR" who gained the.....Dan
Poole, auctioneer, manager. REAGAN, Andropov 'men of the year' Super..
Frederick, Maryland Tuesday, December 27, 1983  526 k


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Sp. cons. subcom legislative oversight U.S. Ho. of Reps., et al;
WHO'S WHO IN AMERICA. With World Notables. A Biographical Dictionary of Notable
Living Men and Women. 2,563 pp. Chicago: Marquis-Who's Who. $29.75 from the
publisher, $35 at bookstores. Sp. cons., et al
By MARVIN KITMAN. New York Times (1857-Current. Jun 23, 1968. p. BR2 (4
pages)
First page:  For a sketch-writer who did the piece about Marshall McLuhan,
the "communications specialist" on page 2,505, there also must have been a sense
of real achievement.  Her biography was clearer than anything the great
communicator ever wrote.

    2.  Magazines Woo Agencies' Creative Men
By PHILIP H. DOUGHERTY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.:
Oct 19, 1969. p. F18 (1 page):
   He said agency people were quite willing to recognize that the
(Reader's-ed.) Digest is a great communicator, and often he finds them eager to learn
some of the magazine's editorial techniques.

    3.  Woman as a Groaning Board
By ANATOLE BROYARD. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr
10, 1972. p. 33 (1 page):
   The love instructors, the poets of the bedroom, the great communicators,
are often divorces with no wish to remarry.

    4.  Students Discover America; Foreign Students Find More Than Violence,
Wealth Here
By Jane Seaberry Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post
(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Aug 8, 1974. p. G1 (2 pages)
Second page (G3, col. 3):  She said games and music are great communicators.


    5.  Wisdom Of the Sages
By Russell Baker. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 27,
1976. p. 29 (1 page)
(See Newspaperarchive, above--ed.)


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sun Jun  6 15:33:39 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 11:33:39 -0400
Subject: Pol's vowels
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.113339.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Noticeable in today's news coverage, that, even in speaking with people
from Dixon IL, the pronunciation RAYG at N seems now to be universal.  Legend
has it that it was Nancy who changed it from the REEG at N by which he was
known when a movie actor, & presumably before that.
Cheney has been granted a similar vowel switch (from CHEE-NEY to CHAY-NEY).
Is this supposed to sound classier? (The name of the art historian, Sheldon
Cheney, was also pronounced chAYney by a profesor of mine, though a friend
of Cheney's told me chEEney was correct.)
Brian Mulroney, PM of Canada in the '80s, pronounced his name MULROONEY,
though relatives of his in Ireland said they thought that an affectation.
In the case of Colin Powell, the change to the long O in Colin is more in
keeping with (what seems to be) ordinary American practice, similar to that
found in Basil & Cecil, where the first vowels are lengthened.
A. Murie


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  6 18:39:40 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 14:39:40 EDT
Subject: Chili Mac (1903); Chile today and hot tamale (1928); Gedunk
 (1925, 1926)
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.143940.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CHILI MAC

   "Chili caught fire in the Midwest, where the most popular variety was
'chili mac,' a relatively bland garlic-free dish served in taverns, diners, and
cafes that was a melange of meat sauce, peppers, tomatoes, and elbow macaroni."
--THE WORLD ON A PLATE: A TOUR THROUGH THE HISTORY OF AMERICA'S ETHNIC
CUISINE (2003) by Joel Denker, pg. 142.

   I had previously posted 1925 for this dish, but I didn't then have the
ProQuest databases available from home, and the Chicago Tribune wasn't in
ProQuest at that time.  A re-check shows 1903, but the Chicago Tribune is nowhere in
sight!  There's a 26-year gap here?


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Front Page 2 -- No Title
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 22, 1903. p. 1 (1
page):
     Hot Tamales and Chili Mac, at 503 12th st. nw.  Open till 1 a. m.

    2.  Front Page 2 -- No Title
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 28, 1903. p. 1 (1
page)

    3.  Display Ad 42 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 26, 1929. p.
A7 (1 page)

    4.  Classified Ad 14 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 17, 1933. p.
A13 (1 page)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CHILE TODAY AND HOT TAMALE

   A "classic."


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
 Comic 4 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 10, 1928. p.
11 (1 page) :
   _The Shanghai Jester_
   "How do you like the climate?" we asked John Chinaman, as he handed him
our laundry check.
   "Chile today and hot tamale," he replied, as he blew an opium ring over
the clothespin.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
GEDUNK

   "Harold Teen," a popular comic in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, was famous for the
"gedunk sundae."  For whatever reason, the comic does not appear to be in the
search engine's capability.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("gedunk")
    1.  Other 2 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 27, 1925. p. 8 (1 page)
:
_To Eingetunkt Is One Thing; to Gedunk Is ANother._
   Sir:  For the benefit of those Deutschverderbers who are using the Line
for their outrageous "gedunking," I wish to submit the following vocabulary: The
verb TUNKEN or EINTUNKEN: the perfect participle is EINGETUNKT, and the noun
id TUNKER.  But your benighted contribs use one word for all three meanings,
and that word is spelled wrong!  ES IST ZUM LACHEN!
   GRETCHEN.

    2.  Other 3 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Feb 3, 1925. p. 8 (1 page)
:
_Oh, We Gedunk Our Ice Cream in Black Coffee._
   R. H. L."  Three cheers for "Just Me" and her poem _Doppa_.  Ask her does
she know about "Sukar pa bit?"  It's the act of dopping a lump of sugar in
unsweetened coffee (the second cup _only_) and sucking it.  Umm!  It's done in
the best of Swedish circles.  Try it, you Gedunkers!
   DOODLES.

    3.  Other 3 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Feb 28, 1925. p. 4 (1
page):
   ...but would you mind gedunking this item in your column?
   WINDY

    4.  A LINE O' TYPE OR TWO
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 29, 1925. p. 8 (1 page)
:
_Gosh!  They're Going to Gedunk 'em._
(Children and water--ed.)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("gedunk sundae")
VOICE OF THE PEOPLE; NOISE.
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 10, 1926. p. 8 (1 page)
:
      _GEDUNK SUNDAES._
   Chicago, March 4.  You possess one comic feature that is changing the
habits of the nation.  I refer to Harold Teen and his Gedunk sundae.
   I have two children, a boy and a girl, now of high school age, and I have
spent many a painstaking hour teaching them correct table manners.  Their
conduct was above reproach until the notorious Gedunk sundae made its appearance.
   First my boy succumbed and then my girl.  I had their father investigate
at our corner drug store, and he too succumbed.
   The whole situation has been very amusing to me.  Carl Ed is certainly in
a class by himself.  No other comic printed contains as much human interest
and at the same time as much fun.  He is certainly the "Booth Tarkington of
cartoonists."
   MRS. E. A. EDMONDS.


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Jun  6 20:10:28 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 16:10:28 -0400
Subject: Chili Mac (1903); Chile today and hot tamale (1928); Gedunk
 (1925, 1926)
In-Reply-To: <200406061139.1bx2yO5Xb3NZFk70@mamo>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.161028.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 6, 2004, at 2:39 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Chili Mac (1903); Chile today and hot tamale (1928);
> Gedunk
>               (1925, 1926)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> CHILI MAC
>
>    "Chili caught fire in the Midwest, where the most popular variety
> was
> 'chili mac,' a relatively bland garlic-free dish served in taverns,
> diners, and
> cafes that was a melange of meat sauce, peppers, tomatoes, and elbow
> macaroni."
> --THE WORLD ON A PLATE: A TOUR THROUGH THE HISTORY OF AMERICA'S ETHNIC
> CUISINE (2003) by Joel Denker, pg. 142.
>
>    I had previously posted 1925 for this dish, but I didn't then have
> the
> ProQuest databases available from home, and the Chicago Tribune wasn't
> in
> ProQuest at that time.  A re-check shows 1903, but the Chicago Tribune
> is nowhere in
> sight!  There's a 26-year gap here?
>
>
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>     1.  Front Page 2 -- No Title
> The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 22, 1903. p. 1
> (1
> page):
>      Hot Tamales and Chili Mac, at 503 12th st. nw.  Open till 1 a. m.
>
>     2.  Front Page 2 -- No Title
> The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 28, 1903. p. 1
> (1
> page)
>
>     3.  Display Ad 42 -- No Title
> Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 26,
> 1929. p.
> A7 (1 page)
>
>     4.  Classified Ad 14 -- No Title
> Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 17,
> 1933. p.
> A13 (1 page)
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> ---------------------------------------------
> CHILE TODAY AND HOT TAMALE
>
>    A "classic."
>
>
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>  Comic 4 -- No Title
> Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 10,
> 1928. p.
> 11 (1 page) :
>    _The Shanghai Jester_
>    "How do you like the climate?" we asked John Chinaman, as he handed
> him
> our laundry check.
>    "Chile today and hot tamale," he replied, as he blew an opium ring
> over
> the clothespin.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> ---------------------------------------------
> GEDUNK
>
>    "Harold Teen," a popular comic in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, was famous
> for the
> "gedunk sundae."  For whatever reason, the comic does not appear to be
> in the
> search engine's capability.

FWIW: Carl Frank Ludwig Ed was the man who first celebrated the
juvenile teens in a comic strip. ... Ed's talent was noticed by a
co-publisher of the Chicago Tribune, who hired him to undertake the
nation's first strip about a boy in his teens in 1918. 'Harold Teen'
was read widely by teenagers of the day.
[from Comic-Art.com]

-Wilson Gray

> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("gedunk")
>     1.  Other 2 -- No Title
> Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 27, 1925. p. 8
> (1 page)
> :
> _To Eingetunkt Is One Thing; to Gedunk Is ANother._
>    Sir:  For the benefit of those Deutschverderbers who are using the
> Line
> for their outrageous "gedunking," I wish to submit the following
> vocabulary: The
> verb TUNKEN or EINTUNKEN: the perfect participle is EINGETUNKT, and
> the noun
> id TUNKER.  But your benighted contribs use one word for all three
> meanings,
> and that word is spelled wrong!  ES IST ZUM LACHEN!
>    GRETCHEN.
>
>     2.  Other 3 -- No Title
> Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Feb 3, 1925. p. 8 (1
> page)
> :
> _Oh, We Gedunk Our Ice Cream in Black Coffee._
>    R. H. L."  Three cheers for "Just Me" and her poem _Doppa_.  Ask
> her does
> she know about "Sukar pa bit?"  It's the act of dopping a lump of
> sugar in
> unsweetened coffee (the second cup _only_) and sucking it.  Umm!  It's
> done in
> the best of Swedish circles.  Try it, you Gedunkers!
>    DOODLES.
>
>     3.  Other 3 -- No Title
> Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Feb 28, 1925. p. 4 (1
> page):
>    ...but would you mind gedunking this item in your column?
>    WINDY
>
>     4.  A LINE O' TYPE OR TWO
> Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 29, 1925. p. 8
> (1 page)
> :
> _Gosh!  They're Going to Gedunk 'em._
> (Children and water--ed.)
>
>
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("gedunk sundae")
> VOICE OF THE PEOPLE; NOISE.
> Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 10, 1926. p. 8
> (1 page)
> :
>       _GEDUNK SUNDAES._
>    Chicago, March 4.  You possess one comic feature that is changing
> the
> habits of the nation.  I refer to Harold Teen and his Gedunk sundae.
>    I have two children, a boy and a girl, now of high school age, and
> I have
> spent many a painstaking hour teaching them correct table manners.
> Their
> conduct was above reproach until the notorious Gedunk sundae made its
> appearance.
>    First my boy succumbed and then my girl.  I had their father
> investigate
> at our corner drug store, and he too succumbed.
>    The whole situation has been very amusing to me.  Carl Ed is
> certainly in
> a class by himself.  No other comic printed contains as much human
> interest
> and at the same time as much fun.  He is certainly the "Booth
> Tarkington of
> cartoonists."
>    MRS. E. A. EDMONDS.
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun  6 20:31:49 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 16:31:49 -0400
Subject: Chili Mac (1903); Chile today and hot tamale (1928); Gedunk
 (1925, 1926)
In-Reply-To: <149.2b17ec66.2df4beec@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.163149.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>GEDUNK
>
>    "Harold Teen," a popular comic in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, was famous for the
>"gedunk sundae."  For whatever reason, the comic does not appear to be in the
>search engine's capability.

"Gedunk" was used for "dunk" (e.g., doughnut): I don't know whether this
was mock-German or a nonsense augmentation (like "ker-plunk" maybe). The
"g" is always /g/ AFAIK.

"Gedunk" was also used like (and likely based on?) "Podunk" occasionally,
apparently referring to a small town.

"Gedunk" (also with other spellings) became US Navy slang for "ice cream"
(by WW II) and also for other sweets/snacks ... and also for a Navy
ice-cream stand or small store (e.g., on a ship). It's still current AFAIK.

Just in case some might not be familiar with this odd word.

-- Doug Wilson


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun  6 21:26:36 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 17:26:36 -0400
Subject: "hot dog"--Sam Clements' 1937, 1939 attestations
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.172636.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To add a new quote to the mix, and to try to convince people that the use of
the terms to refer to the bright young men who worked for Felix Frankfurter
was possibly a continuation of the "hot dog" term used about individuals in
the 1890's? and picked up again in sports in the 1950's and later, I offer
an earlier cite.

11 April 1934  _Monessen(PA) Daily Independent_   4/4 (Newspaperarchive)
>From the syndicated column called "National Whirligig"

<<If all the stories around town are true, Dr. Wirt got himself all hot and
bothered over the theories of a much newer group.
    This is the band of proteges that Dr. Felix Frankfurter planted in a
score of periscope positions in the New Deal.  Most of them are in Federal
legal divisions.  They answer to the name either of Young Liberals or Hot
Dogs.  They have pulled quite an oar in a more or less unobstrusive way.  In
many respects they're carrying on for the Brain Trust but they weren't in
the first draft.>>

I think they were being called "hot dogs" because of being given
responsibilities at a young age that in other times would have been given to
older hands.

Sam Clements


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Cohen" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: "hot dog"--Sam Clements' 1937, 1939 attestations


> Again, my thanks to Sam Clements and Douglas Wilson for their new
> "hot dog" attestations. Here now are my thoughts about Sam's material:
>
> 2) We must be careful about placing the "hot-dogger" attestations of
> the 1930's in the semantic context of 1890's "hot dog" (show off),
> for which there are no unambiguous attestations in the 1910's, '20's
> or '30's.
> The context for "hot dog(ger)" that we do find in the 1930s is one of
> inferior/second-rate boxers, with the term extended to movies,
> golfing (with shift of meaning to "as yet unknown golfers"), and
> probably baseball (with shift to "show-off"; truly inferior
> ballplayers are quickly released by professional teams). So
> "hot-dog(ger)" in the 1930s-1940s was becoming an all-purpose
> put-down, traceable ultimately to the departure of boxing fans to get
> hot dogs and other refreshments when the preliminary bouts (with
> their second-rate boxers) were underway.
>
> 3) The 1937 quote would fit the sense of a general put-down of
> s.o/s.th. as second-rate. Also, the connecting of the already
> existing "hot dog(ger)" (s.o./sth. inferior) with the Supreme-Court
> judge named (Felix) Frankfurter was no doubt too tempting to pass up.
>
> 4) The 1939 quote says: '...You had to look twice--sometimes three
> times--before you could believe that here was the sire of the brain
> trust, the "hot dogger" whose name has provoked such wrath in
> anti-New Deal circles.'). I believe that in calling Frankfurter a
> "hot dogger whose name has provoked such wrath in anti-New Deal
> circles," the writer is likening the judge to the incompetent boxers
> whose performance would evoke cries of "Throw the bum out." The focus
> here is not on Frankfurter the "sire (of the brain trust)"--which
> would suggest pomposity and hence "show-off") but Frankfurter the
> incompetent/the second-rate/the bum.
>
> ***
>
> At 10:23 PM -0400 5/29/04, Sam Clements wrote:
> >From: Sam Clements <SClements at NEO.RR.COM>
> >
> >Just to add to Doug's posts......
> >
> >I propose that he's correct, it is merely a continuation of the term that
> >existed many years before.  And I further propose that it was resurrected
to
> >apply to Felix Frankfurter and his protege's.
> >
> >There are fascinating cites from Newspaperarchive.
> >
> >1937-- "EXPERT--Another man frequently assailed as a "Roosevelt brain
> >truster" or a "Frankfurter hot-dogger" is Mordecai Ezekiel, chief
economic
> >adviser of the department of agriculture."
> >
> >1939--"SHREWD--Felix Frankfurter has become almost a myth to the American
> >people, and like most fictitious characters he doesn't fit the popular
> >conception of himself at all.  He is not the pompous, professorial,
radical
> >being he had been painted by enemies, not the saint of the cloisters his
> >worshipers make him out to be. <snip> You had to look twice--sometimes
three
> >times--before you could believe that here was the sire of the brain
trust,
> >the "hot dogger" whose name has provoked such wrath in anti-New Deal
> >circles."
> >
> >I think the 1950's? sports metaphor was only a continuation of Felix "hot
> >dog" Frankfurter.  His high profile perhaps brought the old term into use
> >again.
> >
> >SC
>
>
> Gerald Cohen
>
> >
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  6 22:58:34 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:58:34 EDT
Subject: "Scam"--1963 "origin unknown" (1959)
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.185834.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SCAM
  
_Couple slam adoption "scam" lawyer_
--NEW YORK POST, 6 June 2004, pg. 12 headline
    
(ADS-L ARCHIVES, 30 September 2003)
Barry,
I really enjoy your contributions to the list. One word you might be 
interested in antedating is scam, which only goes back to 1963 in OED and elsewhere.
All the best,
Brian   
  
  
   All right, the LOS ANGELES TIMES digitization is up to 1963, and it's time 
to work on "scam."
   There is an ocean of bad hits, usually for "seam" or "scum" or "slam" or 
"scan."  All the tricks were tried--limiting the time span to a few years 
before 1963, adding the words "carnival" or "carny" or "slang," and using the forms 
"scamming" and "scammer."
    However, limiting the time period from 1950-1963 still yields 2,245 
ProQuest "hits."
    Maybe it's a secret acronym for Santa Claus?  We still dunno.  Wait for 
the CHICAGO TRIBUNE digitization.  How are the WESTLAW criminal cites for 
"scam," "scamming," and "scammer"?
  
  
(MERRIAM-WEBSTER)
Main Entry: 1scam     Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: skam
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1963
: a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation <an insurance scam>    
    
  
CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG (1998)
by Jonathon Green
Pg. 1033:
scam n. {1960s+] ... [? SE _scheme_}

    
(OED)
SCAM (noun)
slang (orig. and chiefly U.S.).
[Origin obscure.] 
  1. a. A trick, a ruse; a swindle, a racket. Also attrib. 
  1963 Time 28 June 48/2 He..worked..as a carny huckster... ‘It was a full 
scam.’ 1971 Harper's Mag. Feb. 89 A gambling house is a sitting duck to every 
con man or outlaw who comes through; he is invariably convinced that he has a 
scam that you have never seen before. 1972 Sunday Mail (Brisbane) 2 July 19/6 It 
was necessary to the success of the latest ‘scam’ that it be worked in 
places where $25 chips were constantly in play. 1975 J. F. BURKE Death Trick (1976) 
iv. 64 Hustling of any kind he could live with in his hotel, dope-dealing, 
selling ass, almost any scam, even burglary. 1976 M. MACHLIN Pipeline v. 58 
Gamblers, pimps, whores, conmen, and scam artists of every persuasion were drawn 
to the scene like sharks. 1978 M. PUZO Fools Die xii. 131 The bribe-taking scam 
had been going on for nearly two years without any kind of hitch.
 
    b. spec. A fraudulent bankruptcy (see quot. 1966). Also attrib. 
 
  1966 Wall Street Jrnl. 9 Sept. 1/1 (heading) ‘Fat Man’ Scolnick & ‘scams’
... They're known as ‘scam’ operators, promoters who set up ostensibly 
legitimate businesses, order large amounts of merchandise on credit, sell it fast 
and strictly for cashand then go ‘bankrupt’, leaving their creditors unpaid. 
1968 J. M. ULLMAN Lady on Fire (1969) xiv. 181 ‘The main plan's to go 
bankrupt... The suppliers will be stuck with unpaid bills for millions. There's a name 
for that’ ‘Scam game,’ Forbes said. 1974 N.Y. Times 8 July 26/1 Organized 
crime is stealing millions of dollars from the public through planned fraudulent 
bankruptcies, called ‘scams’ by the underworld.
 
    2. A story; a rumour; information. 
 
  1964 Guardian 8 July 7/6 ‘People want the 1930s all over again: a thousand 
naked chorus girls dancing in a pink smog under crystal chandeliers on a 
revolving staircase on an Alp.’.. ‘Didn't someone tell us once that Hollywood went 
bust with that scam?’ 1966 Amer. Speech XLI. 281 Lowdown, scam, the word, 
information. 1972 W. MCGIVERN Caprifoil (1973) viii. 137 There's been a security 
break... He's scheduled a press conference... The scam is he's going to break 
what we know on Spencer. 1972 J. WAMBAUGH Blue Knight (1973) i. 28, I paid 
them [sc. informers] from my pocket, and when I made the bust on the scam they 
gave me, I made it look like I lucked on to the arrest. 1976 New Musical Express 
17 Apr. 10/2 No, still no scam on Donny and Marie.
  
 
(OED)
SCAM (verb)
slang (orig. and chiefly U.S.).
 [Origin obscure: cf. prec.]     intr. and trans. To perpetrate a fraud; to 
cheat, trick, or swindle. Hence scamming vbl. n. (in sense 1b of SCAM n.). 
  1963 Time 28 June 48/2 My boss was scammin' from the public, and I was 
scammin' from him. 1966 Wall Street Jrnl. 9 Sept. 1/1 ‘Scam’ originally was a 
carnival term meaning ‘to fleece the public’. 1974 Whig-Standard (Kingston, 
Ont.) 9 Apr. 4/1 Scamming..is a form of criminal bankruptcy in which a front man 
buys out a legitimate firm and then uses the credit rating of the firm to buy 
large quantities of merchandise. Ibid. 4/3 Scamming, he said, ranks second only 
to bookmaking in financial importance to criminals. 1977 New Yorker 30 May 
96/2 Local citizens..try to avoid being scammed by the familiar tergiversations 
of city politicians.
 
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
On Language; Stings and Scams Downhill Mondegreens 
By William Safire. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 2, 
1980. p. SM3 (1 page) :
   "Scam" has a simpler history.  The word was spawned at carnivals, where 
games of chance were rigged to fleece customers.  Some say it may have come from 
"scamp's game"; others point to the word's possible origin as a variant of 
"shame," but that's all guesswork--no precarny citations have been found.

  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("scamp's game")
No hits
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("scamp's game")
No hits
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("scam" and "scamp")
    1.  AFFAIRS IN ENGLAND.; The Revolutionary Barenet A Clouded Horizon The 
Question of National Education Literary Gossip The Metropolitan Theatres. A 
STORM BREWING. LITERARY GOSSIP. THE LONDON THEATRES. 
>From Our Own Correspondent.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, 
N.Y.: Dec 9, 1871. p. 2 (1 page) 
       
    2.  Classified Ad 33 -- No Title
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Nov 10, 
1973. p. C44 (1 page) 
      
    3.  Classified Ad 13 -- No Title
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Dec 13, 
1973. p. C27 (1 page) 
       
    4.  Classified Ad 19 -- No Title
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Sep 11, 1974. p. 
C29 (1 page) 
       
    5.  Display Ad 92 -- No Title
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Mar 26, 1977. p. 
D39 (1 page) 
      
    6.  Display Ad 110 -- No Title
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Apr 29, 1977. p. 
C25 (1 page) 
     
    7.  On Language; Stings and Scams Downhill Mondegreens 
By William Safire. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 2, 
1980. p. SM3 (1 page)   
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("scam" and "scamp")
24 hits, none relevant
   
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("scam" and "carny")
No hits
     
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("scam" and "scheme")
    29. Make New Fall Chair Covers
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 3, 1938. p. X13 (1 
page) 
    
    30. Cheaters Beat the New Las Vegas; A Gang Cheats Casinos In the New Las 
Vegas 
By WALLACE TURNERSpecial to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current 
file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 26, 1972. p. 1 (2 pages)  
    
     
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("Scam" and "slang") (45 hits, most all of them 
bad--ed.)
Nevada State Journal - 8/31/1968    
...in a column: "Speaking of SLANG, the SCAM restaurant in L.A. got its 
name.....game of chance" Could Be, Could Be But SCAM happens to be the initials of 
the..
Reno, Nevada Saturday, August 31, 1968  807 k       
Pg. 4, col. 4, "On Broadway" by Walter Winchell:
   Item in a column:  "Speaking of slang, the Scam restaurant in L.A. got its 
name from an expression used to describe a dishonest carnival game of 
chance."...Could Be, Could Be...But Scam happens to be the initials of the co-owners: 
Steve Crane and Al Mathis.
      
 
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("scamming")
Chronicle Telegram - 9/10/1965  
...more popular con games this season is "SCAMMING." The players get hold of 
some.....have deserted for new, challenging SCAMMING situations. A travel 
agency was..
Elyria, Ohio Friday, September 10, 1965  763 k   
Pg. 26, col. 3:
_SOUND, ESTABLISHED FIRMS BILKED_
_AS SCAMMERS LEAP TO THE KILL_
by Cyrus Barrett, Jr.
(...)
   DEAR FURPO:  One of the more popular con games this season is "Scamming."  
The players get hold of some company with a good established credit rating 
and start buying merchandise or materials for resale.  Upon delivery, they dump 
it at quick sale prices.  Suppliers, closing in for their money, find they 
simply were not quick enough.   The new owners have deserted for new, challenging 
scamming situations.  (...)  With adroit minds, scammers seem to jump from 
business to business like Rubio winning the Grand National steeple chase.
    
Manitowoc Herald Times - 9/10/1965  
...have deserted for new, challenging SCAMMING situations. A travel agency 
was..
Manitowoc, Wisconsin Friday, September 10, 1965  882 k      
    
Sheboygan Press - 9/10/1965     
...more popular con games this season is "SCAMMING." The players get hold of 
some.....have deserted for new, challenging SCAMMING situations. A travel 
agency was..
Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, September 10, 1965  662 k      
      
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("scamming")
    1.  Classified Ad 19 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 27, 1951. p. 22 (1 
page) 
(BAD HIT?--ed.) 
    
    2.  Bankruptcy Expert Gives Advice After Adjudicating 5,000 Cases; 
Retiring Referee Advocates Rehabilitation Chance for Potential Failures Retiring 
Bankruptcy Referee Advises 
By ISADORE BARMASH. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 
4, 1965. p. F1 (2 pages)  
Second page (Pg. 18, col. 5):  The F. B. I. chief cited in particular a 
rising trend known as "scamming," a practice of deliberately planned banlruptcy for 
gain that has grossed its perpetrators $200 million a year nationally.
    
    
(WWW,NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Times Recorder - 6/30/1959  
...Each week it's another get-rich-quick SCAM filled with bold-face lies..
Zanesville, Ohio Tuesday, June 30, 1959  142 k      
(BAD HIT!  IT MENTIONS M*A*S*H ENDING ITS TELEVISION RUN!--ed.)
    
Van Nuys News - 7/30/1959   
...young compirs or occasional campirs "SCAM" bag. Complet. with htad flap 
and..
Van Nuys, California Thursday, July 30, 1959  443 k     
(A "SCAM BAG" IS INTRIGUING, BUT IT'S A "SCOUT BAG."  OY VEY IS MIR!--ed.)
  
Reno Evening Gazette - 12/1/1959    
...in the red under-ear, is the straight: SCAM, all ght. But there's more 
than one..
Reno, Nevada Tuesday, December 01, 1959  509 k   
Pg. 18, col. 3:
_Now Santa Claus Must Attend School to Catch the Spirit of Christmas_
   LOS ANGELES (AP)--Hang on Virginia, this thing is even bigger than we 
thought.
   All that jazz about the pudgy little joy-monger in the red underwear is 
the straight scam, all right.  But there's more than one.  We've found a place 
where they crank 'em out faster than second lieutenants.
  A kind of Santa Claus Candidates' School where they produce three-day 
winter wonders.
   The Volunteers of America have this Christmas program.   
     
Newark Advocate - 11/24/1960    
...little joy-rr.onger in the red is the SCAM, ai right. But there's more 
than..
Newark, Ohio Thursday, November 24, 1960  655 k 
Pg. 45, col. 1:
   Hang on, Virginia, this thing is even bigger than we thought.
   All that jazz about the pudgy little joy-monger in the red underwear is 
the straight scam, all right.  But there's more than one.  We've found a place 
in Los Angeles where they turn them out faster than you could harness a 
reindeer.
   The Volunteers of America have this good-cheer program.  They send out 
Santa Clauses to stand by red and white chimneys on the street and ring bells, 
tacitly inviting the passing public to drop a little something in the chimneys.  
     


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Mon Jun  7 02:25:29 2004
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 22:25:29 -0400
Subject: Dirty word fragments
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.222529.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the past, broadcast channels and radio have bleeped out offensive
words. I notice more recently, though, that such words are only clipped.
For example, an NPR show today had an interviewee repeatedly used the
word "assho[bleep]". I found it interesting that the "ass" part was
acceptable, even "assho", but there seemed to be something offensive
about the final consonant.

Offensive words are increasingly allowed to play themselves out to the
extent that they are perfectly recognizable with only a small piece
clipped off.  Why can we bear assho[bleep] but would assumedly be greatly
offended by asshole? Does this fool children who may be listening? Are
our broadcasters following primitive taboo customs?

Higher budget operations don't bleep, they dub. I watch Die Hard With a
Vengeance on broadcast channels just for the joy of hearing Samuel L.
Jackson call Bruce Willis a "dirty melon farmer."

D

I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Mon Jun  7 03:27:23 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 23:27:23 -0400
Subject: Dirty word fragments
In-Reply-To: <20040606.222535.-212749.15.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.232723.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was pleased to see that when PBS broadcast the documentary on the
Weathermen, they left all the cursing intact. It made a difference to
the tone, I think.

But it stands in curious contrast to the FCC reversal on the Bono
f-word usage at an awards ceremony: first they said there would be no
penalty, then they said there would be. Not a peep, as far as I ever
found, came out of the PBS Weathermen broadcast.

Which leads me to Eric Idle's FCC song, which can be found here, among
other places. If you're in a public space, wear headphones. It is
definitely not safe for work.

http://www.pythonline.com/plugs/idle/FCCSong.mp3

Grant

On Jun 6, 2004, at 22:25, Duane Campbell wrote:

> In the past, broadcast channels and radio have bleeped out offensive
> words. I notice more recently, though, that such words are only
> clipped.
> For example, an NPR show today had an interviewee repeatedly used the
> word "assho[bleep]". I found it interesting that the "ass" part was
> acceptable, even "assho", but there seemed to be something offensive
> about the final consonant.
>
> Offensive words are increasingly allowed to play themselves out to the
> extent that they are perfectly recognizable with only a small piece
> clipped off.  Why can we bear assho[bleep] but would assumedly be
> greatly
> offended by asshole? Does this fool children who may be listening? Are
> our broadcasters following primitive taboo customs?
>
> Higher budget operations don't bleep, they dub. I watch Die Hard With a
> Vengeance on broadcast channels just for the joy of hearing Samuel L.
> Jackson call Bruce Willis a "dirty melon farmer."
>
> D
>
> I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message
>
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  7 03:29:01 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 23:29:01 -0400
Subject: "Lai" Rice Balls,
 Ma Po Tofu or "Measled Woman" Bean Curd (Sichuan food)
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.232901.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MAPO + BEAN--3,970 Google hits, 34 Google Groups hits
MA PO + BEAN--3,780 Google hits, 167 Google Groups hits
("Mapo"/"Ma Po" is not in the revised OED--ed.)

   I've been eating at various places around town (New York City) while I stick around and wait for the computer databases to arrive. This is a break from my usual lifestyle of the cheapest/smallest/worst living conditions and food, reflecting my real status in this town and in life.
    This past Wednesday saw newspaper food reviews of a new Egyptian theme restaurant on East 59th and First Avenue, the new branch of Totonno's Pizzeria, and Abbondanza's on Bleecker--all placed I'd already been to.
   The past week I've been to the Ethiopian Restaurant on First Avenue, the Jasmine (Thai) Restaurant on Second Avenue, Curry Leaf (Indian) on "Curry Hill"/Lexington Avenue, a place in "Little Korea" (West 32nd Street), and Teodoro's (Italian) on East 57th and Lexington (it was featured in the Times magazine last Sunday).
   Today, I tried a place about a year old and just a block away--Grand Sichuan Eastern, 1049 Second Avenue, near 56th Street.  The menu is very informative, but it's not all on the internet as I was told it was:


http://www.thegrandsichuan.com/

...the excellent bean curd with spicy sauce ($7.25) is named after a woman with ''a spotty, pockmarked face.''
(MY DISH TONIGHT--ed.)
(...)
Ma po tofu, bean curd with spicy minced pork and chili peppers ($8.25), is a classic Sichuan dish, invented, the guide explains, by an old woman with a face pockmarked by measles.
(...)
The new dishes, all with poetic names and created for an emperor, include Growing Grass in Spring Must Be Like Green and Threaded Silk ($5.95), a mixture of fresh sliced vegetables served cold in a fiery yet flavorful sauce, which sets the mouth aglow and demands well-timed mouthfuls of rice and water. Another dish, Green Parrot With a Red Mouth ($4.95), cooked spinach served cool with a sauce of ginger and hot oil, is more refreshing than spicy with a gingery kick.
(...)
Most Chinese restaurants practice a time-honored deception, offering one menu to their Chinese customers and another to everybody else. Grand Sichuan takes a different tack: it labels dishes that it thinks will please American tastes as ''American Chinese,'' and also hands out a 27-page pamphlet that explains five Chinese regional cuisines and describes dozens of dishes the restaurant serves.
(THEY DIDN'T HAVE IT--I ASKED--ed.)


   From the menu (but not the web site):

PA PA VEGETABLES...8.95
(No Google hits--ed.)

STEWED CHICKEN WITH "WHITE FRUIT"...10.95
(Couldn't find the dish on Google--ed.)

EGGPLANTS WITH SICHUAN WONDER SAUCE...4.95
(Only 18 Google "wonder sauce" hits, with just a few for Chinese--ed.)

"LAI" STICK RICE BALLS W. SOUP...2.50
(Supposedly famous, but this was about the only Google hit--ed.)
clubs.asua.arizona.edu/~acss/old_issue/2000/0002/Feb11
... traditional rice balls for you that was made by myself. Its recipe is based on the
famous rice ball from Chengdu, Sichuan (it is called Lai Tang Yun, a famous ...
14k - Cached - Similar pages

"CHONG" CABBAGE...3.55
(Probably "chung choi"--ed.)
JOOK REPOST - CALVIN
... rock salt (or to your taste) 1/2 cup raw peanuts Garnish: chopped lettuce chung
choi, chopped fine (** Chung choi is a Chinese salted preserved cabbage. ...
alt.cooking-chien - Feb 6, 2000 by Connie Van - View Thread (1 article)


   For a bit more about that measled woman...


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("Mapo" + "Bean")(1 hit)
Looking for Nirvana on a Chinese Peak; It isn't easy to find amid the guides and peddlers of the holy Emei Shan Chinese Peak
By JOHN KRICH. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 9, 1992. p. XX22 (2 pages)

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("Ma Po" + "Bean")(11 hits)
   1. Scrutinizing Chinese Food
By FRED FERRETTI. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 1, 1978. p. C6 (1 page)
  "The Scrutable Feast is an odd and wonderous book.  (...)
Or Ma Po-style bean curd, a dish of ground pork and bean curd, so called nbecause Ma Po literally means pockmarked old woman.

   2. Hwei Ping; Richman on Restaurants
Phvllis C. Richman. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 14, 1979. p. SM32 (2 pages)

   3. DINING OUT From Hunan to Canton to Sichuan; *Woks
By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 4, 1979. p. LI21 (1 page)

   4. Sichuan Food--at the Source
By FOX BUTTERFIELD. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 5, 1980. p. C10 (1 page)

   5. A Peppery Tofu With Hot Beef Sauce; ONE GREAT DISH A Memorable Main Dish
By Roy Andries de Groot. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Oct 5, 1980. p. L1 (2 pages)

   6. Chinese Cuisine in a Tudor Setting
By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 29, 1984. p. LI21 (1 page)

   7. A Touch of Tofu Temptation
By Sharon Farrington Special to The Washington Post. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Apr 20, 1986. p. K2 (1 page)

   8. THE QUIZ; DINING '86 DINING '86 DINING '86 DINING '86 DINING '86 DINING '86 DINING '86 DINING '86
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Sep 21, 1986. p. SM38 (13 pages)

   9. Two to Square Off For the Tofu Trade; The Business of Tofu Tofu
By Carole Sugarman Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 12, 1986. p. E12 (3 pages)

   10. $25 AND UNDER; Dishes for an Emperor at Every Meal Grand Sichuan International Midtown
Eric Asimov. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 13, 2000. p. F9 (1 page)

   11. Sichuan Cooks Relight The Fire; Sichuan Cooks Relight the Fire BRAISED FISH AND NAPA CABBAGE WITN CHILIES TWICE-COOKED PORK
FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 6, 2000. p. F1 (2 pages)


(GOOGLE)
http://starbulletin.com/columnist/column.php?id=4810&col_id=40
Chinese recipe comes with language class
Wednesday, October 22, 2003

Popo and Mapo are both older Chinese women. Popo is an older woman grandma and Mapo is an older woman with an imperfect complexion. Perhaps she is also a grandma, but not necessarily.
It's amazing what you can learn when cruising the Internet in search of stray facts, in this case the origin of the Szechwan dish Mapo Tofu.

According to www.orientalfoodmaster.com, the dish was created by "an old lady who resided in Szechwan a long time ago." Her face had been scarred by the measles, thus people called her "Mapo," (ma meaning pock-marked and po meaning elderly woman).

You also may be interested to know that Mapo Tofu was among dishes prepared by Iron Chef Chen Kenichi in 1999, when the final episodes of "Iron Chef" were filmed. You can read about this in great detail at www.ironchef.com.

The secret ingredient of the match was Tokyo-X, a type of pork developed by crossing three breeds (Beijing black pig, Berkshire and Durock). Chen won the battle.

All of this is apropos of nothing, except that Thelma Lee has asked for the recipe for Mapo Tofu from Ciao Mein Restaurant at the Hyatt Regency Waikiki Resort & Spa.

Mapo Tofu is typically made with a little bit of pork and a lot of tofu, seasoned to heightened awareness with chile sauces -- usually a hot black bean sauce and/or a chile-garlic sauce. These are available at Asian groceries and sometimes in the Asian sections of mainstream supermarkets.

Chef Hing Lim Lee from Ciao Mein prefers Yeo's brand of hot bean sauce, which is sold at 99 Ranch Market. The sauce aisle at 99 is a fascinating place, by the way, full of variety and all kinds of brands. Bring your reading glasses to study the labels; it can be hard to pick out exactly what you're looking for.


Mapo Tofu
2 ounces ground pork hash
1 tablespoon vegetable oil
2 ounces (1/4 cup) chile-garlic sauce (Yeo's brand preferred)
2 ounces (1/4 cup) hot bean sauce (Yeo's brand preferred)
6 ounces (3/4 cup) chicken broth
Sugar to taste
Salt to taste
1 teaspoon mushroom-flavored dark soy sauce (Pearl River Bridge brand preferred)
Red chile peppers, to taste
1 block soft tofu, cut in cubes
1 teaspoon sesame oil
2 tablespoons cornstarch dissolved in 2 tablespoons water
Chopped green onions, for garnish

Stir-fry pork in oil in a wok. Add chile-garlic and hot bean sauces, broth, sugar and salt. Bring to a boil.
Add soy sauce and chile peppers. Add tofu. Return to a boil. Cook until tofu is hot in the center. Add sesame oil. Fold in cornstarch mixture to thicken, as needed. Do not overmix the sauce.

Serve over rice and garnish with green onions. Serves 2.

Approximate nutritional analysis, per serving (not including rice, or sugar or salt to taste : 450 calories, 28 g total fat, 5 g saturated fat, 10 mg cholesterol, greater than 2,300 mg sodium, 23 g carbohydrate, 27 g protein


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Jun  7 04:26:43 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 00:26:43 -0400
Subject: "Scam"--1963 "origin unknown" (1959)
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.002643.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Westlaw isn't much help, beyond its descriptions of some of the frauds for which "scam" was used in the 1960s.  The earliest I found was a 1967 case, referring to events of 1962:

        <<Hartman agreed to work as a buyer and salesman. Wolcoff told him his duties were to telephone manufacturers, wholesalers and factory representatives listed in the yellow pages of the telephone book, and to place orders for merchandise. Hartman was told to keep his orders down to about $25 to $50 because 'Well, if we have to scam we have got to have small bills because the creditors won't come after us on a scam for small bills, but they would for big ones.'
. . .

        The word 'scam' was used throughout the trial. One of the defendants explained that 'scam' was the ordering of merchandise on credit and not paying for it, and thereafter going into phoney bankruptcy to beat the creditors out of the purchase price of the goods ordered.>>

United States v. Wolcoff, 379 F.2d 521, 523 (7th Cir.), cert. denied, 389 U.S. 929 (1967).

        It may be worth noting that there are references to a Scam Instrument Corporation as late as 1972.  Presumably "scam" was no longer considered a viable corporate name after about that date.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Bapopik at AOL.COM
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 6:59 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: "Scam"--1963 "origin unknown" (1959)


SCAM

   All right, the LOS ANGELES TIMES digitization is up to 1963, and it's time
to work on "scam."
   There is an ocean of bad hits, usually for "seam" or "scum" or "slam" or
"scan."  All the tricks were tried--limiting the time span to a few years
before 1963, adding the words "carnival" or "carny" or "slang," and using the forms
"scamming" and "scammer."
    However, limiting the time period from 1950-1963 still yields 2,245
ProQuest "hits."
    Maybe it's a secret acronym for Santa Claus?  We still dunno.  Wait for
the CHICAGO TRIBUNE digitization.  How are the WESTLAW criminal cites for
"scam," "scamming," and "scammer"?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  7 04:48:51 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 00:48:51 -0400
Subject: Clover Club (1911), Pegu, Sam Ward (1889) cocktails
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.004851.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  Not the three most famous cocktails, perhaps, but famous in their days.   I'll check each of my drink books later for earlier cites.

--------------------------------------------------------------
CLOVER CLUB

CLOVER CLUB + COCKTAIL--4,800 Google hits, 15 Google Groups hits

   Several hits (Washington Post and NY Times) are 1911 and nothing is before that, although the "Clover Club" did exist in Philadelphia in the 1800s.


(OED)
1925 E. WALLACE King by Night xlii. 186 *Clover Club cocktails, John. 1931 A. POWELL Afternoon Men xiv. 147 He..went to the bar and ordered two clover-clubs and a sidecar.


(GOOGLE)
http://hotwired.wired.com/cocktail/98/05/index3a.html
Clover Club

This drink's luck ran out about 50 years ago. Like a has-been whose name is only vaguely remembered, the Clover Club - still included in all the revered records of classic cocktails - now garners respect only for its venerable age. Name-dropping bartenders often cite the refreshing gin potion, but they'd be hard pressed to mix it. Of course, few imbibers would bother to actually refer to these as mixers, based on their bluster. After all, most shun anything dubbed Clover Club, associating the phrase with corner bars of the same name - most of which are only a slight stumble beyond the less endearing dives named after various states of drunkenness.

But we like the Clover Club and make no inferences about its name. When prompt and polite with its recipe, we've been served it at every bar where we've asked for it. With the prosy precepts of mixing 1 1/2 ounces gin, 1/4 ounce grenadine or raspberry syrup, 3/4 ounce lemon juice, and - as startling as it might sound - an egg white (which we do skip when goaded), this aperitif's as rousing as most made with gin. But the Clover Club's ambrosia of fruit syrups keeps the drink's edge from digging too deep, particularly on evenings when we've had no more than the day's usual vexation.

Almost certainly invented during the Old School of American Bartending, from 1897 until 1919, the Clover Club began to brave mild baiting during the early '30s, starting with the Old School itself: "A Philadelphia importation," wrote historian Albert Stevens Crockett in the Old Waldorf-Astoria Bar Book of 1933, the drink "originated in the bar of the old Bellevue-Stratford, where the Clover Club, composed of literary, legal, financial, and business lights of the Quaker City, often dined and wined, and wined again."

In hopes of learning more about how this drink's fortune ran awry and its stature diminished, we tried to go to the supposed source - the Clover Club. Although we came across plenty of references to the club in obituaries of seemingly fine fellows from Boston and Philly, we never found a live specimen from the organization. In the 1995 Invisible Philadelphia: Communities through Volunteer Organizations, authors Jean Barth Toll and Mildred S. Gillam insist that the Clover Club, a dining club started in 1881, is still going strong. We have been able to piece together that the male-only club met just once a year to eat red meat while roasting local politicians.

Given the spottiness of the record, we're ready to make what we consider a logical leap: Perhaps the club had very little to do with the drink after all. When we consider the research of Jessy Randall, reference librarian at the Library Company of Philadelphia and an especially helpful teetotaler, we're particularly convinced. "At a certain point in every Clover Club dinner, 'after the soup, and with the fish,'" reported Jessy, "there would be several toasts drunk from the 'Loving Cup,' some kind of fancy silver cup belonging to the club." Jessy went on to quote from Mary R. Deacon's The Clover Club of Philadelphia of 1897: "The knowledge of the composition of the brew in the 'Loving Cup' is not common property. It is potent, it is strong. Those who have dipped more than once in its spring have mentioned its penetrating properties and its enervating powers. Double vision may follow two indulgences...." Jessy surmised that perhaps "the 'Clover Club' cocktail is related to this 'mysterious brew' (as they call it in a poem, later). But I have no proof.... We have a fair amount of information on the Clover Club itself, including menus for several of their fancy dinners held at the Bellevue Hotel here in Philadelphia, but I couldn't find a recipe for the Clover Club drink."

When we compound Jessy's own doubts with the fact that no one at the Bellevue Hotel seems to remember either the club or the cocktail, we begin to wonder why no members of the Clover Club have ever confirmed the story. We can only suspect that one evening, long ago, a few affiliates of the group offhandedly asked a bartender at the Bellevue to mix them up something new, and at the time, the Clover Club seemed a good enough name for a simple enough drink. Either that or the bartender decided that this perfectly prosaic drink - which rarely offends but is never noticed - didn't quite merit the flights of the picky or imaginative, and certainly not the mixer's name.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Display Ad 4 -- No Title
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 9, 1911. p. 3 (1 page):
  Ingredients for
Clover Club Cocktail
  With these indredients at hand you can make a snappy Clover Club Cocktail at any time.
Gordon Dry Gin...$1 bottle
Grenadine...$1 bottle
TO-KALON WINE CO.

Front Page 6 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 4, 1911. p. 1 (1 page):
   A Drink For Ladies--Clover Club Cocktail, but made with smooth, dry English _Picadilly Gin_--distinctively delicate.  At all clubs, hotels, cafes.--Adv.

-------------------------------------------------------------
PEGU

PEGU + COCKTAIL--664 Google hits, 17 Google Groups hits
("Pegu" is not in OED.)

   I couldn't find anything on this in ProQuest Historical Newspapers, Newspaperarchive, or the American Periodical Series.  Time to hit the drink books.


(GOOGLE)
http://hotwired.wired.com/cocktail/96/16/index4a.html
Pegu

George Orwell, a British colonial police officer in Burma during the '20s, observed that the past belongs to those who control the present. When it comes to the nearly forgotten Pegu cocktail, few words could ring truer.

Between the '20s and the '40s, no other exotic mix was as popular as this drink, which hails from the Pegu Club, located in a small town of nearly the same name. The bar was about 50 miles outside Rangoon, the capital of Burma - the country we refuse to call Myanmar, now better known for its infamous drug-producing region, the Golden Triangle.

According to Harry Craddock's Savoy Cocktail Club of 1930, people traveled the world round and asked everyone for this drink. But at about the time Orwell penned "Big Brother is watching you" and Burma gained its so-called independence, the Pegu vanished.

Fortunately for us, though, the Pegu is finally in resurgence, meaning that this inspiring gin cocktail has been sighted at bars that we frequent. With 1 1/2 ounces gin, 1/2 ounce Cointreau, 1/2 ounce lime juice, and a few dashes of Angostura bitters, all shaken with ice and strained into a chilled cocktail glass, the Pegu makes for a pungent drink that stimulates the senses and soothes the soul.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Food and Drink With a Merengue Beat
ALEXANDRA McGINLEY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 18, 1999. p. CY4 (1 page):
   ...or a Pegu cocktail, named for a turn-of-the-century club in Burma (gin, Curacao, lime and bitters), with ginger crab cakes in roasted red pepper sauce.


---------------------------------------------------------------
SAM WARD

SAM WARD + COCKTAIL--413 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit

   Named after the popular politican of the period, this appears to have died with him.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
TOPICAL TALK.; Interesting Items About Well-Known Men and Women.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 18, 1889. p. 4 (1 page):
   Potempken soup does not appear to be more objectionable than "Sam Ward cocktail" or Sheridan punch.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  7 05:00:15 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 01:00:15 -0400
Subject: "Scam" trademarks (1953, 1963)
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.010015.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   For what they're worth.  There are 107 "scam" trademarks, but most are recent.


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark SCAM
Goods and Services (EXPIRED) IC 009. US 021. G & S: ANNUNCIATOR SYSTEM APPARATUS FOR INDICATING THE CONDITIONS OF PROCESS AND OTHER VARIABLES, INCLUDING ALARM LIGHTS, PLUG-IN RELAY UNITS, PRE-WIRED CHASSIS UNITS, CONTROL SWITCHES, AND CABINETS FOR HOUSING THE SAME; SELF-POLICING ANNUNICATOR SYSTEMS AND PARTS THEREOF; ANNUNCIATOR EQUIPMENT FOR INDICATING THE ON, OFF AND DEFECTIVE OPERATING CONDITIONS OF ELECTRIC MOTORS; ELECTRICAL ANNUNCIATOR INSTRUMENTS AND COMPONENT PARTS THEREOF, SUCH AS MULTIPLE RELAY PLUG-IN CONTAINERS. FIRST USE: 19530900. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19531000
(EXPIRED) IC 009. US 026. G & S: PANEL BOARDS WITH INTEGRATED DIAGRAMS AND/OR RECORDING AND/OR INDICATING INSTRUMENTS, SUCH AS THERMOMETERS, PRESSURE GAUGES, POTENTIOMETERS, AND THE LIKE, AND COMPONENT PARTS THEREOF; ELECTRIC AND/OR ELECTRONIC SUPERVISORY CONTROL SYSTEMS, SEQUENCE OR SELECTIVE PROCESS SCANNING SYSTEMS, MONITORING SYSTEMS FOR AUTOMATICALLY DETERMINING AND/OR RECORDING PHYSICAL DATA SUCH AS TEMPERATURES AND PRESENCE AND LOCATION OF ELECTRIC SHORT CIRCUITS; CO-ORDINATED CONTROL AND/OR RECORDING PANELS CONTAINING RECORDING ELEMENTS AND/OR GAUGES AND/OR CONTROL ELEMENTS; AUTOMATIC PROCESS MEASURING AND RECORDING EQUIPMENT; INSTRUMENTATION FOR PROCESS CONTROL EQUIPMENT IN CONVENTIONAL AND NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS, IN OIL REFINERIES, IN PAPER MILLS, IN METAL WORKING INDUSTRIES, IN FOOD AND CHEMICAL PROCESSING; DIGITAL COMPUTER AND DATA HANDLING SYSTEMS FOR INDUSTRIAL AND COMMERCIAL APPLICATIONS; AND HOSPITAL INFORMATION SYSTEMS. FIRST USE: 19630701. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19630701

Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 72256897
Filing Date October 21, 1966
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Registration Number 0861307
Registration Date December 3, 1968
Owner (REGISTRANT) SCAM INSTRUMENT CORPORATION, THE CORPORATION ILLINOIS 7401 N. HAMLIN AVE. SKOKIE ILLINOIS 60076
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Prior Registrations 0649622
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15.
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark SCAM
Goods and Services (EXPIRED) IC 004. US 015. G & S: ADDITIVE FOR AUTOMOTIVE MOTOR OIL AND AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID. FIRST USE: 19630501. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19630501
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 72188379
Filing Date March 10, 1964
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Registration Number 0777705
Registration Date September 29, 1964
Owner (REGISTRANT) MAC'S SUPER GLOSS CO., INC. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 6040 N. FIGUEROA ST. LOS ANGELES 12, CALIF.
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15.
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Jun  7 05:34:40 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 01:34:40 -0400
Subject: "Lai" Rice Balls,
 Ma Po Tofu or "Measled Woman" Bean Curd (Sichuan food)
In-Reply-To: <4540BE4A.1CFD5EA3.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.013440.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>...the excellent bean curd with spicy sauce ($7.25) is named after a woman
>with ''a spotty, pockmarked face.''
>(MY DISH TONIGHT--ed.)
>(...)
>Ma po tofu, bean curd with spicy minced pork and chili peppers ($8.25), is
>a classic Sichuan dish, invented, the guide explains, by an old woman with
>a face pockmarked by measles.

Folk etymology?

-- Doug Wilson


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Mon Jun  7 08:07:12 2004
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 01:07:12 -0700
Subject: "Lai" Rice Balls,
 Ma Po Tofu or "Measled Woman" Bean Curd (Sichuan food)
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.010712.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The postings on the blog at http://homepage2.nifty.com/osiete/s364.htm seem
to agree with a pockmarked old woman, though one poster says there are many
explanations.

At http://www.worldgooddesign.net/j/china/ousan/0003.html, a suggestion is
made that the tofu was originally made by an Old Ms. Ma.

HTH
Benjamin Barrett

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
Douglas G. Wilson
-------------------

>...the excellent bean curd with spicy sauce ($7.25) is named after a
>woman with ''a spotty, pockmarked face.'' (MY DISH TONIGHT--ed.)
>(...)
>Ma po tofu, bean curd with spicy minced pork and chili peppers ($8.25), is
>a classic Sichuan dish, invented, the guide explains, by an old woman with
>a face pockmarked by measles.

Folk etymology?

-- Doug Wilson


From preston at MSU.EDU  Mon Jun  7 11:53:43 2004
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 07:53:43 -0400
Subject: Dirty word fragments
In-Reply-To: <20040606.222535.-212749.15.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.075343.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Was there different bleeping in those regions which lack (or
vocalize) post-vocalic /l/?

dInIs

>In the past, broadcast channels and radio have bleeped out offensive
>words. I notice more recently, though, that such words are only clipped.
>For example, an NPR show today had an interviewee repeatedly used the
>word "assho[bleep]". I found it interesting that the "ass" part was
>acceptable, even "assho", but there seemed to be something offensive
>about the final consonant.
>
>Offensive words are increasingly allowed to play themselves out to the
>extent that they are perfectly recognizable with only a small piece
>clipped off.  Why can we bear assho[bleep] but would assumedly be greatly
>offended by asshole? Does this fool children who may be listening? Are
>our broadcasters following primitive taboo customs?
>
>Higher budget operations don't bleep, they dub. I watch Die Hard With a
>Vengeance on broadcast channels just for the joy of hearing Samuel L.
>Jackson call Bruce Willis a "dirty melon farmer."
>
>D
>
>I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  7 12:30:47 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 08:30:47 EDT
Subject: Chinaman
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.083047.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Sun, 6 Jun 2004 14:39:40 EDT,   Bapopik at AOL.COM quotes

>  CHILE TODAY AND HOT TAMALE
>
>  (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>   Comic 4 -- No Title
>  Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 10, 1928.
p.
>  11 (1 page) :
>     _The Shanghai Jester_
>     "How do you like the climate?" we asked John Chinaman, as he handed him
>  our laundry check.
>     "Chile today and hot tamale," he replied, as he blew an opium ring over
>  the clothespin.

The OED2 has "John Chinaman" from 1826, with an ambiguous "John" from 1818.
Oddly, the first citation under "Chinaman" is 1854.  MWCD10 and MWCD11 both
have 1789 for "Chinaman".  I can do better than that.

Washington University facsimile reprint (Jackson I. Cope and Harold Whitmore
Jones, ed., St. Louis: Washington University Press, 1958) of Thomas Sprat
_History of the Royal Society_ London 1667. page 161.  (I do not have the exact
quote available at the moment).

        - James A. Landau


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun  7 14:32:00 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 09:32:00 -0500
Subject: Dirty word fragments
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.093200.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> From: Duane Campbell
> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 9:25 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> I watch Die
> Hard With a Vengeance on broadcast channels just for the joy
> of hearing Samuel L. Jackson call Bruce Willis a "dirty melon farmer."

Another good one is the DePalma version of "Scarface".  In the original,
Al Pacino says "This town is one big pussy waiting to get fucked" (in
a broad Cuban accent).  The edited version is a "big chicken waiting to
get plucked".


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun  7 15:32:47 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 08:32:47 -0700
Subject: more negative mischief
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.083247.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

susan stamberg, on today's Morning Edition (NPR), remarked that ronald
reagan "was not afraid to mince his words", thus piling on rather too
much negation.  "didn't mince his words" would have done.  "was not
afraid to be outspoken" or "to speak clearly" would have done.  but
this version has him fearlessly mincing his words.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun  7 16:29:52 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 12:29:52 -0400
Subject: more negative mischief
In-Reply-To: <EDD56D5C-B897-11D8-A933-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.122952.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>susan stamberg, on today's Morning Edition (NPR), remarked that ronald
>reagan "was not afraid to mince his words", thus piling on rather too
>much negation.

As W. B. Hodgson (1885)  [Errors in the Use of English; New York:
Appleton] p. 21 muttered gloomily a while back, "Piled-up negatives
prove easy stumbling-blocks."

>  "didn't mince his words" would have done.  "was not
>afraid to be outspoken" or "to speak clearly" would have done.  but
>this version has him fearlessly mincing his words.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

As Jerry would say (if I hadn't beaten him to it), a very nice syntactic blend.

Larry


From orinkh at CARR.ORG  Mon Jun  7 20:09:35 2004
From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 16:09:35 -0400
Subject: balsam pear (?)
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.160935.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would be grateful for any information on the appearance in English,
especially in American English, of the term “balsam pear” to designate the
plant or fruit of Momordica charantia. Here’s what I’ve got now:

RHUD has a headword entry and def but no date.

OED has no entry; however, it gives “balsam pear” at the definition of karela
(one of the modern culinary names in English of this fruit, from Hindi).

DARE has no entry, but gives “balsam pear” at the definition of bitter melon
(one of its other modern culinary names, probably a translation from Chinese.
DARE’s only informants for the term were Hawaiian).

NID3, at balsam pear, says a “balsam apple.

Some usage seems to lump balsam apple (Momordica balsamina) and balsam pear
(Momordica charantia), and this is reflected in various entries of both OED
and NID3, but not in other dictionaries I am aware of.

My sense is that three terms are now more or less current in culinary contexts
(karela, bitter melon, and bitter gourd) for this fruit, but I have been
unable to determine where and when balsam pear had any currency in English. Is
it perhaps of Caribbean origin, where (as NID3 notes) this vine is
naturalized? I could find no cites for “balsam pear” on the Making of America
sites, and the only cites there for Momordica are for a species that has since
been reclassified (the squirting cucumber, which is now Ecballium elaterium).

One more note, if anyone is still reading: the RH Shumway seed catalog,
clearly hedging its bets, sells seeds for what it calls the “balsam apple,”
which it identifies only as “Momordica.” Their drawing, however, is clearly of
Momordica charantia, *not* M. balsamina. Evergreen Seeds (an Asian vegetable
seed catalog) gives, for Momordica charantia, “bitter melon,” “bitter gourd,”
and “bitter cucumber.

Many thanks, and off-list replies are OK if this gets any more obscure than it
already is.

Orin Hargraves


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Jun  7 21:16:48 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:16:48 -0400
Subject: kyarn
In-Reply-To: <2104A7D6-B769-11D8-AF8F-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.171648.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This reminds me of the opening scene in the old "Story of English" video on
Black English.  Some whites are talking about their childhood memories of a
term they borrowed from servants on the plantation/estate (whatever they
call it these days).  I transcribed it as "yedi" without knowing what it
meant, until someone said it was "hear" or "hear ye" or something like
that.  Then I realized it involved palatalization plus flapping.  A better
dialect spelling might therefore be "hyear" plus whatever affix was meant
(my memory is weak on the exact sound).  Is this initial palatalizing
common in Southern English in general? or only in AAVE, and there only in
older speakers?  I'm not familiar with it in Appalachian English, though
apparently it's in Ozark English.

At 11:25 PM 6/5/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>On Jun 5, 2004, at 8:54 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
>>Subject:      kyarn
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>>In my childhood in
>>>East Texas, a word that sounded like "kyahn" was used by my parents
>>>and
>>>grandparents with a meaning something like "an otherwise-unidentified
>>>substance with a disgusting odor," since it occurred only in sentences
>>>like "That smells/stinks like/as bad as kyahn." I've never heard
>>>"kyahn" used by *anyone* outside of my immediate family. Nevertheless,
>>>about 35 years later, while thumbing through a book on the vocabulary
>>>of *Ozark* English, what before my wondering eyes should appear but
>>>the
>>>citation, "kyahn. n. carrion." It blew my mind, to say the least.
>>>Unfortunately, I'm unable to recall the title or the author of the
>>>lexicon.
>>
>>My wife's maternal grandmother is in her 80's, and grew up/lives in
>>south Georgia (Douglas, Nicholls).  My wife picked up from her side
>>of the family "kyarn", meaning carrion (note the "r").  The best
>>description
>>is kyarn is what a dog will roll in just before it
>>comes inside and rubs against you.  The stinkier, the better.
>
>Now that you've brought it to my attention, it could well have been the
>"kyarn" spelling that I saw in the lexicon. My "knowledge" of English
>of the Ozark/Appalachian type has been gained primarily from comic
>strips like "Li'l Abner" and "[Barney Google and] Snuffy Smith," and
>from TV shows like Jerry Springer. Interestingly, while in the Army, I
>had a (white) Appalachian-speaking buddy for whom "yon" as an adjective
>was a living part of his vocabulary. He could say things like, "Let's
>go have a beer in yon bar." This was in 1961. Down home in East Texas,
>we blacks used "yon" only adverbially in exclamations like "Yon he go!"
>Otherwise, we used "yonder" and even then still only adverbially: "He
>use to live (over) yonder; look (over) yonder!; they went (over)
>yonder/went yonder (way)."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  9 02:46:59 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 22:46:59 EDT
Subject: "Evil Empire" (June 8, 1982; March 8, 1983)
Message-ID: <TUE.8.JUN.2004.224659.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ADS-L appears to be down for the day, but I'll try this, anyway.
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------  
EVIL EMPIRE--222,000 Google hits, 83,600 Google Groups hits
  
(GOOGLE)
The Reagan Home Page:Evil Empire Speech... Advertisers may or may not share 
political views with Townhall.com. '); '. The Evil Empire. President Reagan's 
Speech to the House of Commons, June 8, 1982. ... 
www.townhall.com/hall_of_fame/ reagan/speech/empire.html - 50k - Cached - 
Similar pages   
  
Modern History Sourcebook: Ronald Reagan: The Evil EmpireBack to Modern 
History SourceBook. Modern History Sourcebook: Ronald Reagan: Evil Empire Speech, 
June 8, 1982. President Reagan: Speech ... 
www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1982reagan1.html - Similar pages    
  
Ronald Reagan... Annual Convention Of The National Association of ...... 
Orlando, Florida. March 8, 1983. This is the "evil empire" speech that was so 
often quoted as defining my attitude toward the Soviets. ... 
www.ronaldreagan.com/sp_6.html - 37k - Cached - Similar pages   


(GOOGLE)
http://www.tysknews.com/Articles/empire.htm
Seventeen Years Ago This Week, Ronald Reagan Called the Soviet Union the 
Focus of Evil in the Modern World. The 'Evil Empire' Speech Disturbed the 
Political Universe, but the Critical Words Almost Went Unsaid. 
 
President Reagan's Evil Empire Speech, often credited with hastening the end 
of Soviet totalitarianism, almost didn't happen. According to presidential 
papers obtained by The Morning Call, Reagan was thwarted on at least one earlier 
occasion from using the same blunt, anti-communist phrases he spoke from the 
bully pulpit 17 years ago this week. And former Reagan aides now say it was 
their furtive effort in the winter of 1983 that slipped the boldest of words past 
a timid bureaucracy. With clever calculation, the Evil Empire Speech eluded 
U.S. censors to score a direct hit on the Soviet Union. "It was the stealth 
speech," said one Reagan aide. In the spring of 1982, the president felt the 
reins on his rhetoric. The first draft of his address to the British Parliament 
labeled the Soviet Union the world's "focus of evil." He liked the text. But 
Parliament never heard those words. U.S. diplomats and cautious Reagan advisers 
sanitized the text of the speech, removing its harshest terms, according to 
documents from the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, Calif. But 
nine months later, Reagan spoke in Orlando, Fla., and delivered many of the 
passages deleted from the London address. His Orlando speech is known as the 
Evil Empire Speech. The speech alarmed moderates of the West, delighted millions 
living under Soviet oppression and set off a global chain reaction that many 
believe led inexorably to the fall of the Berlin Wall and to freedom for most 
of Eastern Europe. The Reagan Library papers provide fascinating insights into 
the drafting of what may have been the most important presidential statement 
of the Cold War. They also reveal that, despite the unremitting influences on 
him, the president himself decided what he would say. "Letus be aware that 
while they preach the supremacy of the state, declare its omnipotence over 
individual man, predict its eventual domination of all peoples of the Earth, they are 
the focus of evil in the modern world," Reagan told the National Association 
of Evangelicals on March 8, 1983. An audience of 1,200 was first to hear the 
words "focus of evil" in the Citrus Crown Ballroom at the Sheraton Twin Towers 
Hotel in Orlando. And other phrases slashed from the Parliament speech were 
resurrected in the Evil Empire Speech. 
> » The 1982 first draft said, "Those cliches of conquest we have heard so 
> often from the East are ... part of a sad, bizarre, dreadfully evil episode in 
> history, but an episode that is dying, a chapter whose last pages even now 
> are being written." The sentence was censored in London, but in Orlando Reagan 
> said, "I believe that Communism is another sad, bizarre chapter in human 
> history whose last pages even now are being written." » The London first draft 
> included the words of the late British novelist C.S. Lewis: "The greatest evil 
> is not in those sordid dens of crime that Dickens loved to paint. ... It is 
> conceived and ordered ... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, 
> by quiet men." The words were held until Orlando. 
> (...)
    
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(1086 hits for "evil empire")
    1.  Tarzan
EDGAR RICE BURROUGHS. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, 
Calif.: Oct 4, 1936. p. 4A (1 page) 
(Cartoon panels--ed.)
SADLY THE JUNGLE LORD FORESAW THE GROWTH OF A VAST AND EVIL EMPIRE WHICH 
SOMEDAY MIGHT THREATEN HIS OWN DOMAIN.
     
    2.  MR. CHURCHILL'S PLEA
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 7, 1946. p. 18 (1 
page):
   Mr. Churchill is so honestly an Englishman and so honestly a conservative 
imperialist that the incongruity of the remedy he suggests for the situation 
which he helped bring about quite obviously escapes him.  He proposes an 
alliance, half slave and half free, with the British empire representing slavery.  
He comes really as a suppliant, begging assistance for that old and evil empire 
and frankly expecting to get it on his own terms. 
     
    3.  AMERICA IN BAD COMPANY
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 20, 1946. p. 20 (1 
page) :
   In the peace conference and in the United Nations our government is in 
intimate association with the great and evil empires.  It is not our 
responsibility or duty to reform them but it is our privilege to dissociate ourselves fro 
mtheir enslavements and oppressions. 
     
    4.  Other 48 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 4, 1949. p. 
D6 (1 page)   
(BAD HITS!  "Force of Evil" and the Empire Theatre--ed.)
     
    5.  Other 6 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 5, 1949. p. 
A2 (1 page)   
     
    6.  Mesquite, Tex., vs. 'Evil Empire'
By PETER APPLEBOMESpecial to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current 
file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 23, 1982. p. 7 (1 page) 
(Video games--ed.)  
     
    7.  Excerpts From President's Speech to National Association of 
Evangelicals
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 9, 1983. p. A18 (1 
page) 
      
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM (370 hits for "evil empire")
Tri City Herald - 1/7/1968  
...HANGS THE FATE OF BALDA HAN AND HIS EVIL EMPIRE. _ NEXT WEEKTo Arms..
Pasco, Washington Sunday, January 07, 1968  567 k       
    
Nevada State Journal - 1/7/1968     
...HAM69 1MB RATE OP BAiPA HAM ANP HIS EVIL EMPIRE. MCXT J. PIERPONT 
6R066INS..
Reno, Nevada Sunday, January 07, 1968  557 k    
        
Bradford Era - 3/9/1951     
...bullet for bullet and smashed their EVIL EMPIRE ZERO HOSTEL' TED de 
CORSlA..
Bradford, Pennsylvania Friday, March 09, 1951  605 k    
    
Bismarck Tribune - 6/16/1954    
...hunt that finally destroyed their EVIL EMPIRE 'KIUERS-FOR-HIRE'-ANDTHE 
MWI..
Bismarck, North Dakota   Wednesday, June 16, 1954  539 k    
     
Progress - 5/14/1951    
...AFTER CLUE THAT FINALLY SMASHED THEIR EVIL EMPIRE with ZERO MOSTEL 
EVERETT..
Clearfield, Pennsylvania Monday, May 14, 1951  681 k    
    
Chronicle Telegram - 9/27/1979  
...We trained for 30 years to fight the 'EVIL EMPIRE.' We trained to break 
things..
Elyria, Ohio Thursday, September 27, 1979  518 k        
     
Chronicle Telegram - 9/12/1979  
...pierce what comes across as a Tobacco EVIL EMPIRE, the tone is as sinister 
as..
Elyria, Ohio Wednesday, September 12, 1979  500 k       
        
Bismarck Tribune - 6/15/1954    
...hunt that finally destroyed their EVIL EMPIRE 'KIUERS-FOH-HIRE'-ANDTHE 
MAN..
Bismarck, North Dakota   Tuesday, June 15, 1954  638 k      
    
Wellsboro Agitator - 10/13/1948     
...MILLAND AMERICAN BEYOND SAINTED "SO EVIL EMPIRE..
Wellsboro, Pennsylvania Wednesday, October 13, 1948  717 k      
    
Lethbridge Herald - 9/5/1957    
...is deployed at last, and as the EVIL EMPIRE of Hitlerism is now 
visibly.....founder and editor for V) years of the EMPIRE Renew, died in a Wimbledon..
Lethbridge, Alberta Thursday, September 05, 1957  940 k 
      
Hampton Chronicle - 6/7/1951    
...hunt that finally destroyed their EVIL EMPIRE. Arrange Details Of The 
July..
Hampton, Iowa Thursday, June 07, 1951  679 k    


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  9 05:24:35 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 01:24:35 EDT
Subject: "Morning in America" (1984); "Teflon" President (1983)
Message-ID: <WED.9.JUN.2004.012435.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Here are a few more phrases from the Ronald Reagan era.
   I worked 8:30 a.m. to 8 p.m. yesterday.  I was too pooped to post.  Today
was only 8:30 a.m.-7 p.m.  All a waste.
   Going home in the subway from the Bronx to Manhattan, I heard the warning
to beware of suspicious packages--TWICE on the same trip.  OK, so they expect
us to die in the subway--so how come cell phones still don't work there?  How
are you supposed to dial 911?  A stupid question, perhaps, but what's the
answer, Mr. Mayor?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MORNING IN AMERICA

MORNING IN AMERICA + REAGAN--4,520 Google hits, 1,130 Google Groups hits

   The 1984 re-election theme.  This week called "mourning in America."


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Display Ad 6 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Oct 27, 1922. p. 6 (1 page)


    2.  REBECCA WEST DISCUSSES AMERICANS AND MARRIAGE
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 4, 1923. p. X12 (1
page)

    3.  Display Ad 17 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 28, 1925. p. 19 (1
page)

    4.  WHAT GOES ON?
Chapin Hall. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep
15, 1938. p. 2 (1 page)

    5.  A Lee for Villain; MORNING IN AMERICA. By Willard Wiener. Decorated
by William Sharp. 303 pp. New York: Farrar & Rinehart. $2.50.
WILLIAM DU BOIS.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 1,
1942. p. BR18 (2 pages)

    6.  BOOKS REVIEWED IN THIS ISSUE
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 1, 1942. p. BR39 (1
page)

    7.  Latest Books Received; Latest Books Received Latest Books Received
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 1, 1942. p. BR35 (3
pages)

    8.  Dire Results of Dealing With Nazis Vividly Told
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 6, 1942. p.
E7 (1 page)

    9.  Television This Week; OF SPECIAL INTEREST
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 23, 1978. p. D25 (2
pages)
    10. MYSTERIES; Mysteries
By JEAN M. WHITE. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.:
Jul 18, 1982. p. BW6 (2 pages)

    11. A Daunting Victory
By Anthony Lewis. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 7,
1984. p. A31 (1 page) :
   Ronald Reagan's amazing political appeal turns in large part on his
projection of optimism, I think: the sense that he feels good and that we should.
His new campaign television ads do it wonderfully: "It's morning in America," a
voice says, and there are idealized scenes of a happy America that Mr. Reagan
has restored.

    12. Don't Bet That He'll Pick a Woman
Michael Barone. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.:
Jul 1, 1984. p. C8 (1 page)

    13. Reagan Ad Aces; The Tuesday Team, Making America Feel Good About
Itself ! ,,7hesday,' 7&am
By Elisabeth Bumiller Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post
(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Oct 18, 1984. p. D1 (2 pages)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"TEFLON" PRESIDENT

TEFLON + REAGAN--6,980 Google hits, 4,990 Google Groups hits

   A few Democrats have said recently that Ronald Reagan was such a wonderful
person, that he stopped the partisan bickering.  Kids, there was partisan
bickering then, too.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
New Goal for NOW: The Vice Presidency
By Bill Peterson Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post
(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Oct 2, 1983. p. A13 (1 page) :
   In the most widely applauded speech of the day, Schroeder accused Reagan
of trying to act like a "Teflon-coated" president by claiming he is simply
misunderstood by women.

Many Who See Failure in His Policies Don't Blame Their Affable President
By STEVEN V. ROBERTS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar
2, 1984. p. A14 (1 page) :
   This has caused great frustration among Democratic politicians, summed up
by Representative Patricia Schroeder's characterization of Mr. Reagan as the
"Teflon-coated President."  Blame, the Colorado Congresswoman complains, never
seems to stick.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Frederick Post - 8/25/1983
...President REAGAN had established "a TEFLON-coated presidency. He sees to
it.....the wagman file' by robert j. wagman REAGAN's 'gender gap' irks
feminists..
Frederick, Maryland Thursday, August 25, 1983  552 k
Pg. B-3, col. 6:  An unabashedly partisan suggestion by Rep. Patricia Shroder
(sic), D-Colo., that President Reagan had established "a Teflon-coated
presidency.  He sees to it that nothing sticks to him.  He is responsible for
nothing--civil rights, Central America, the Middle East, the economy, the
environment--he is just the master of ceremonies at someone else's dinner."

Frederick Post - 5/4/1984
...leader." Thank God it is REAGAN, the TEFLON man, the non-stick president.
But.....He is best summed up as the "TEFLON the ultimate non-stick invention..
Frederick, Maryland Friday, May 04, 1984  544 k

Gettysburg Times - 6/30/1984
...D-Colo. She has called REAGAN a "TEFLON president." claiming he can
make.....use in the campaign against President REAGAN. But leaders seemed baffled..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Saturday, June 30, 1984  536 k

Frederick Post - 8/23/1984
...succeed. That's the secret of Ronald REAGAN." Lyn Nofziger, a longtime
REAGAN.....challengers who call his the TEFLON presidency because, they
complain..
Frederick, Maryland Thursday, August 23, 1984  591 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  9 06:56:38 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 02:56:38 EDT
Subject: Mixtamalization, Nixtamalization; Buen Provecho! (1846)
Message-ID: <WED.9.JUN.2004.025638.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MIXTAMALIZATION, NIXTAMALIZATION
  
MIXTAMALIZATION--6 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
NIXTAMALIZATION--441 Google hits, 20 Google Groups hits
    
   Neither term is in the revised OED, of course.  It's mentioned in a little 
group rec.food.historic.
   From today's newspaper.
 
  
(NEW YORK TIMES, 9 June 2004)
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/09/dining/09HOBO.html
Sinatra's Hometown Has a New Latin Flavor
By R. W. APPLE Jr.

Published: June 9, 2004
    HOBOKEN, N.J.
FOR many generations, the women in Maricel Presilla's family taught school. 
She herself is a scholar with a Ph.D. in medieval Spanish history who once 
taught at Rutgers. So it is no surprise that the dishes she serves at her two 
restaurants here are based on decades of delving into Latin American culinary 
anthropology, or that she can cogently explain her food to those who come 
under-informed to her tables.

"You have to understand the role of mixtamalization," she told me one 
lunchtime at Zafra, the less formal of her places, when I asked what set Mexican 
tamales apart from those of Cuba, where she grew up. "The Mexicans take off the 
tough outer skin of the corn kernels by soaking them in lime water before 
grinding them into flour. That gives their tamales an earthy taste. We don't 
mixtamalize. So our tamales, made with fresh corn, have a much sweeter flavor."
  
I had just begun to grasp that polysyllabic proposition when my tamales 
arrived, and I dived in.  
(...)
(Johnny Apple explains the unfamiliar term no further--ed.) 
  
  
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: What is American cookery?
Yes, nixtamalization is Sophie Coe's term for using alkaline solutions
to remove hulls from corn, making hominy (in the modern sense). ... 
rec.food.historic - Sep 24, 2001 by Mark Zanger - View Thread (47 articles)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
BUEN PROVECHO!
  
BUEN PROVECHO--32,900 Google hits, 3,960 Google Groups hits
BUEN PROVECHO--5,000 Google "English language" hits
    
   One of the food terms, like 'bon appetit," that just isn't translated.   I 
found a nice citation in the book below.
  
  
TRANSCARRIBEAN:
A TRAVEL BOOK OF GUATEMALA, EL SALVADOR, BRITISH HONDURAS
by Louis J. Halle, Jr.
New York: Longmans, Green and Co.
1936
 
Pg. 186:  The other occupants of the hotel, a native white with spectacles 
and two young khaki officers in gold braid (everty hotel I stopped at had two 
young officers in gold braid, bent on a spree) finished their dinners before us, 
gave us "buen provecho!" each in turn, and left.  That is one of the pleasant 
and homely customs of the cfountry: in all the hotels, as you get up from 
table and before leaving the room, you call _buen provecho!_ (roughly: May your 
meal benefit you!) to the assembled diners, in a loud voice that all may hear.
  
       
(OED)
PROSIT, _int._
1846 R. FORD Gatherings from Spain xv. 182 ‘Muchas gracias, buen provecho le 
haga á usted’, ‘Many thanksmuch good may it do your grace’, an answer which 
is analogous to the prosit of Italian peasants after eating or sneezing.
 
   
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Stevens Point Journal - 2/21/1891   
...hostess as invariably replied; "Buen PROVECHO" it do you much The missions 
in..
Stevens Point, Wisconsin Saturday, February 21, 1891  1146 k    
    
Daily Gleaner - 7/5/1959    
...es lo qua ei espera llevar a cabo en PROVECHO de Ja Argentina. African he 
had..
Kingston, Kingston Sunday, July 05, 1959  373 k     
    
Pottstown Mercury - 1/22/1953   
...had been set up the past year arid PROVECHO be popular and fair to 
everyone..
Pottstown, Pennsylvania Thursday, January 22, 1953  736 k       
    
Daily Gleaner - 8/2/1959    
...al Canal de Panama que resulte en PROVECHO del pais. Tatt favorables..
Kingston, Kingston Sunday, August 02, 1959  352 k       
    
Zanesville Signal - 5/17/1934   
...given recently at La Fonda Buen PROVECHO exclusive hostelry in the Old..
Zanesville, Ohio Thursday, May 17, 1934  1079 k     
    
Chronicle Telegram - 8/27/1956  
...get a hotel. Adios. muchacho, and bien PROVECHO. it you can find it." 
found it..
Elyria, Ohio Monday, August 27, 1956  786 k     
    
Blue Island Sun Standard - 3/11/1976    
...y que estan usando su position para PROVECHO personal. Dijo Que eso esta 
mal..
Blue Island, Illinois Thursday, March 11, 1976  400 k       
  
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  THE COURTESY OF SPAIN.; As Exhibited in a Spanish Boarding House in 
New York. 
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 18, 1909. p. E1 (1 
page)"
   To his own table mates there is a polite "buen provecho;" to which each 
person responds either "gracias" or "igualmente, senor." 
      
    2.  How to Help Itchin' Kitten
The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Mar 14, 
1956. p. 43 (1 page) :
   ..."Buen Provecho," British War Charities in Caeacas, Venezuela, The 
American Book Shop, Edificio Veroes, Caracas, Venezuela.
      
    3.  Embassies Cook Up New Glamour Dishes
By Dorothy McCardle. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). 
Washington, D.C.: Aug 26, 1956. p. F12 (1 page):
   THE Venezualan Embassy here has a big fat cookbook in its kitchens called 
"Buen Provecho" or "good eating" which uses "masa" in many different ways.
        
    4.  Spanish Cuisine Comes Into Its Own
Mrs. L.I.M.. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, 
D.C.: Oct 25, 1957. p. C20 (1 page):
   "This recipe was taken from a cookbook called Buen Provecho (Good 
Appetite) which I purchased in Caracas, Venezuela, while living there a few years 
ago." 


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Jun 10 00:53:27 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 20:53:27 -0400
Subject: balsam pear (?)
In-Reply-To: <40B9BA86@mail.carr.org>
Message-ID: <WED.9.JUN.2004.205327.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I would be grateful for any information on the appearance in English,
>especially in American English, of the term "balsam pear" to designate the
>plant or fruit of Momordica charantia. Here's what I've got now:
>
>RHUD has a headword entry and def but no date.
>
>OED has no entry; however, it gives "balsam pear" at the definition of karela
>(one of the modern culinary names in English of this fruit, from Hindi).
>
>DARE has no entry, but gives "balsam pear" at the definition of bitter melon
>(one of its other modern culinary names, probably a translation from Chinese.
>DARE's only informants for the term were Hawaiian).
>
>NID3, at balsam pear, says a "balsam apple.

Century Dictionary (1889) doesn't show this "balsam-pear"; the supplement
(1909) shows it however.

Newpaperarchive gives one item where "balsam-pear" appears with its species
name as above ... this is from Canada in 1941. There are other instances of
"balsam pear" (a few) but without this (or without any) species name. A
couple of items from 1894 use "lakwa", which I suppose is maybe a Chinese word.

Google provides multiple sites showing "balsam pear" as one of a group of
names for the bitter melon currently.

-- Doug Wilson


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Jun 10 01:51:11 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 20:51:11 -0500
Subject: Origin of "joe" (coffee)--"Old Black Joe" (coffee without cream)
 in 1911 cartoon
Message-ID: <WED.9.JUN.2004.205111.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

      HDAS says tentatively about "joe" (coffee; esp. in Navy):
"perhaps as suggested in 1980 quote; the Foster song was extremely
popular." ---1980: Mack & Connell, _Naval Trads._ (5th edition) 260:
'Some sailors call coffee "joe," which some say is a derivative of
[Stephen] Foster's song, "Old Black Joe."'

      Barry Popik sent me a 1911 'Osgar und Adolf' cartoon in
connection with 'hot dog,' and one character speaks of 'Old Black
Joe' meaning coffee without cream. [It fits into the context of
hashhouse lingo,  and Jack Smiley mentions 'joe' (coffee) in his 1941
book _Hash house Lingo_.]

      The 1911 information is:
'Osgar und Adolf' cartoon, by Condo; title: 'Every Little Melody Has
Meaning of It's [apostrophe: sic] Own'; _Tacoma Times_; , Feb. 27,
1911, p.4. (Misspellings below: sic) ---
First frame, Osgar to Adolf: 'Diss moosik box shoult make you der
orders plain, Adolf.  For instance ven id plays "Old Black Joe" id
means coffee mitoudt cream. "Bring me a rose" means Limberger
cheece--und "Come under my plaidie" means oatmeal porridge.'
        Adolf replies: 'So?'
Second frame, music box sings out: 'Hush-a-bye, baby, don't you cry'
and 'Daddy buy me a bow-wow'
        Adolf says: "I see, "Don'd you cry" means peeled onions and
"bow wow" means sissage.'
[Four more frames follow.]

----Gerald Cohen


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun 10 04:32:40 2004
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 21:32:40 -0700
Subject: "Morning in America" (1984); "Teflon" President (1983)
Message-ID: <WED.9.JUN.2004.213240.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a 1995 article, Elliot King and Michael Schudson say that Reagan
was first described as "the Great Communicator" during the first 6
months of his first term. I found a Russell Baker piece on political
cliches in the NY Times from January 27, 1976 in which "Ronald Reagan
is 'a great communicator'" is listed as a bit of conventional
political wisdom. I haven't found anything earlier than that in the
Times, the WSJ, or newspaperarchive.com, but given the Baker context
the phrase must have been in use before then. Can anyone help with
this? Also, it would be interesting to know when the phrase was first
used with the definite article (which changed the sense of 'great',
of course) -- was this before the 1980 election?

Geoff Nunberg


>    Here are a few more phrases from the Ronald Reagan era.
>    I worked 8:30 a.m. to 8 p.m. yesterday.  I was too pooped to post.  Today
>was only 8:30 a.m.-7 p.m.  All a waste.
>    Going home in the subway from the Bronx to Manhattan, I heard the warning
>to beware of suspicious packages--TWICE on the same trip.  OK, so they expect
>us to die in the subway--so how come cell phones still don't work there?  How
>are you supposed to dial 911?  A stupid question, perhaps, but what's the
>answer, Mr. Mayor?
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>---------------------------------------------
>MORNING IN AMERICA
>
>MORNING IN AMERICA + REAGAN--4,520 Google hits, 1,130 Google Groups hits
>
>    The 1984 re-election theme.  This week called "mourning in America."
>
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>     1.  Display Ad 6 -- No Title
>Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Oct 27, 1922. p. 6 (1 page)
>
>
>     2.  REBECCA WEST DISCUSSES AMERICANS AND MARRIAGE
>New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 4, 1923. p. X12 (1
>page)
>
>     3.  Display Ad 17 -- No Title
>Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 28, 1925. p. 19 (1
>page)
>
>     4.  WHAT GOES ON?
>Chapin Hall. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep
>15, 1938. p. 2 (1 page)
>
>     5.  A Lee for Villain; MORNING IN AMERICA. By Willard Wiener. Decorated
>by William Sharp. 303 pp. New York: Farrar & Rinehart. $2.50.
>WILLIAM DU BOIS.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 1,
>1942. p. BR18 (2 pages)
>
>     6.  BOOKS REVIEWED IN THIS ISSUE
>New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 1, 1942. p. BR39 (1
>page)
>
>     7.  Latest Books Received; Latest Books Received Latest Books Received
>New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 1, 1942. p. BR35 (3
>pages)
>
>     8.  Dire Results of Dealing With Nazis Vividly Told
>Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 6, 1942. p.
>E7 (1 page)
>
>     9.  Television This Week; OF SPECIAL INTEREST
>New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 23, 1978. p. D25 (2
>pages)
>     10. MYSTERIES; Mysteries
>By JEAN M. WHITE. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.:
>Jul 18, 1982. p. BW6 (2 pages)
>
>     11. A Daunting Victory
>By Anthony Lewis. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 7,
>1984. p. A31 (1 page) :
>    Ronald Reagan's amazing political appeal turns in large part on his
>projection of optimism, I think: the sense that he feels good and
>that we should.
>His new campaign television ads do it wonderfully: "It's morning in
>America," a
>voice says, and there are idealized scenes of a happy America that Mr. Reagan
>has restored.
>
>     12. Don't Bet That He'll Pick a Woman
>Michael Barone. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.:
>Jul 1, 1984. p. C8 (1 page)
>
>     13. Reagan Ad Aces; The Tuesday Team, Making America Feel Good About
>Itself ! ,,7hesday,' 7&am
>By Elisabeth Bumiller Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post
>(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Oct 18, 1984. p. D1 (2 pages)
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>---------------------------------------------
>"TEFLON" PRESIDENT
>
>TEFLON + REAGAN--6,980 Google hits, 4,990 Google Groups hits
>
>    A few Democrats have said recently that Ronald Reagan was such a wonderful
>person, that he stopped the partisan bickering.  Kids, there was partisan
>bickering then, too.
>
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>New Goal for NOW: The Vice Presidency
>By Bill Peterson Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post
>(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Oct 2, 1983. p. A13 (1 page) :
>    In the most widely applauded speech of the day, Schroeder accused Reagan
>of trying to act like a "Teflon-coated" president by claiming he is simply
>misunderstood by women.
>
>Many Who See Failure in His Policies Don't Blame Their Affable President
>By STEVEN V. ROBERTS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar
>2, 1984. p. A14 (1 page) :
>    This has caused great frustration among Democratic politicians, summed up
>by Representative Patricia Schroeder's characterization of Mr. Reagan as the
>"Teflon-coated President."  Blame, the Colorado Congresswoman complains, never
>seems to stick.
>
>
>(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
>Frederick Post - 8/25/1983
>...President REAGAN had established "a TEFLON-coated presidency. He sees to
>it.....the wagman file' by robert j. wagman REAGAN's 'gender gap' irks
>feminists..
>Frederick, Maryland Thursday, August 25, 1983  552 k
>Pg. B-3, col. 6:  An unabashedly partisan suggestion by Rep. Patricia Shroder
>(sic), D-Colo., that President Reagan had established "a Teflon-coated
>presidency.  He sees to it that nothing sticks to him.  He is responsible for
>nothing--civil rights, Central America, the Middle East, the economy, the
>environment--he is just the master of ceremonies at someone else's dinner."
>
>Frederick Post - 5/4/1984
>...leader." Thank God it is REAGAN, the TEFLON man, the non-stick president.
>But.....He is best summed up as the "TEFLON the ultimate non-stick invention..
>Frederick, Maryland Friday, May 04, 1984  544 k
>
>Gettysburg Times - 6/30/1984
>...D-Colo. She has called REAGAN a "TEFLON president." claiming he can
>make.....use in the campaign against President REAGAN. But leaders
>seemed baffled..
>Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Saturday, June 30, 1984  536 k
>
>Frederick Post - 8/23/1984
>...succeed. That's the secret of Ronald REAGAN." Lyn Nofziger, a longtime
>REAGAN.....challengers who call his the TEFLON presidency because, they
>complain..
>Frederick, Maryland Thursday, August 23, 1984  591 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 10 07:16:48 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 03:16:48 EDT
Subject: Jasbo (1914); Tinker-to-Evers-to-Chance (1905,
 1910); Price-Fixed (Prix Fixe)
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.031648.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

JASBO

   Fred Shapiro had posted this from the CHICAGO TRIBUNE:

1915 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 11 July E8 (ProQuest)  Blues Is Jazz and Jazz


   I checked for "Jasbo," and that's earlier in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
In the Frame of Public Favor
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 22, 1914. p. B11 (1
page) :
   Dave Thompson recently reappointed cast director at the Thanhouser plant
in New Rochelle, has engaged the services of a valet, the same being a huge
Ethiopian nicknamed "Jasbo."  When Dave is not playing in pictures "Jasbo" act as
a personal bodyguard.  The other day "Jasbo" was seated beside Dave's desk
when an actress came in looking for work in the pictures.  "Jasbo" got up to
give the girl his seat.  She turned to him and said, "Don't deprive yourself" and
"Jasbo" replied, "That's all right, miss; no depravity."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TINKER-TO-EVERS-TO-CHANCE

   This is the Chicago Cubs' Hall of Fame "double play" combination, made
famous by the Franklin Pierce Adams poem, "Baseball's Sad Lexicon," in the July
1910 NEW YORK MAIL.
   I thought I'd check the CHICAGO TRIBUNE for the earliest combo.  See the
entry on page 471 of the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  ERRORS HELPED CHICAGO.; Cincinnati Did Most of the Hitting, but
Failed at Critical Point.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 21, 1905. p. 8 (1
page)

    2.  GIANTS FAIL TO SCORE; League Leaders Shut Out by the Chicago Club.
DOUBLE PLAYS TURN TRICK Johnny Evers Records the Only Run on His Single, a
Sacrifice, and a Hit by Casey -- Pittsburg Also Receives a Coat of Whitewash from
the Philadelphias. Scores of Other Games of the Day.
The Washington Post. Sep 24, 1905. p. S1 (1 page)

    3.  Naps Win in Eighth.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 15, 1906. p. 9 (1
page)

    4.  Fifteen Innings at Chicago.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 19, 1906. p. 9 (1
page)

    5.  GIANTS BEAT PIRATES.; Seymour's Home Run Wins Game in Eleventh Inni
ng.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 12, 1906. p. SP1 (1
page)

    6.  Chicago Wins an Eighteen-inning Game.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 3, 1906. p. 8 (1 page)


    7.  CHICAGO CUBS AGAIN WIN.; Take Philadelphia Into Camp by Hard Hitting
in Last Inning.
Special to The Washington Post.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington,
D.C.: Aug 14, 1907. p. 8 (1 page)

    8.  NAPS BUNCH BINGLES.; Get Three in One Inning and Beat Detroit by
Score of 3 to 0.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 12, 1907. p. 8 (1
page)

    9.  CUBS WIN LAST GAME.; Chicago Takes Season's Final Struggle on Home
Grounds.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 3, 1907. p. 9 (1 page)


    10. REDS AGAIN SHUT OUT.; Philadelphia, 6; Cincinnati, 0 -- Sparks Holds
Opponents to Two Hits.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 2, 1908. p. S3 (1
page)
    11. Other 3 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 28, 1908. p. 6 (1 page)


    12. CUBS POUND BALL HARD.; Brown Succeeds Higginbotham and Holds
Cardinals Safe to Finish.
Chicago, Sept. 11.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep
12, 1909. p. S2 (1 page)

    13. BROWN SAVES CHICAGO.; Retires St. Louis in Ninth, With Two on Sacks
and None Out.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 29, 1910. p. 8 (1
page)

    14. <A HREF="http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=13REDS TAKE CLOSE GAME.; Beat Brooklyn in Well Played Contest by Score
of 3 to 2.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 17, 1910. p. 9 (1
page)

    15. IN A MINOR KEY.; His Incivility.
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 15, 1910. p. 4 (1 page)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PRICE-FIXED (PRIX FIXE, continued)

   I saw COOKING FOR KINGS last night, about the first "celebrity chef,"
Careme...It probably doesn't work as a play...No "pave," although it's probably in
his works...Definitions of the words "restaurant" and "bistro" were given.  I
found the first English "restaurant" and had to restrain myself.
   On the way to the show, I passed by Nellie's at Macdougall and West
Houston streets.  A sign stated:

   NELLIE'S
3-COURSE
PRICE-FIXED
DINNER $26

   No one in New York can get "prix fixe" correct?
   Isn't price fixing illegal?


From ron.silliman at VERIZON.NET  Thu Jun 10 10:59:02 2004
From: ron.silliman at VERIZON.NET (Ron)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 06:59:02 -0400
Subject: Ghost in the Machine
In-Reply-To: <20040610040140.HZJN5473.mta015.verizon.net@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.065902.0400.>

What is the origin of the phrase "Ghost in the machine"?

Ron Silliman


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 10 11:34:45 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 07:34:45 -0400
Subject: "Morning in America" (1984); "Teflon" President (1983)
In-Reply-To: <p06020403bced926bfe4e@[10.0.1.2]>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.073445.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote:

> this? Also, it would be interesting to know when the phrase was first
> used with the definite article (which changed the sense of 'great',
> of course) -- was this before the 1980 election?

Earliest with definite article on Nexis is U.S. News & World Report, 8
Dec. 1980.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 10 11:40:54 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 07:40:54 -0400
Subject: Ghost in the Machine
In-Reply-To: <002e01c44ed9$f0d299a0$6501a8c0@Dell>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.074054.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Ron wrote:

> What is the origin of the phrase "Ghost in the machine"?

Gilbert Ryle, The Concept of Mind (1949) ch. 1, uses this to refer to
Descartes' philosophy of mind.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 10 16:41:22 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:41:22 -0400
Subject: "Early American Newspaper" is late
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.124122.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I e-mailed READEX again.  "Early American Newspapers" was due out "first quarter 2004," then "end of May."  Now it's "end of June."
   At last night's Culinary Historians of NY event, I told the CHNY president that we shouldn't do the OXFROD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK without it.  There might be a "cocktail" in it.  She didn't know about the database.  Of course, she didn't know about me, either...

Barry Popik

Dear Mr. Popik,

Thank you for your email.  Currently we anticipate the initial release date of our Early American Newspapers-Digital Edition to be released at the end of this month (June).  If you would like, when it does become available I will notify you as I see that the New York Public Library has indeed purchased access to it.

Please confirm if you would like email notification when it is available.

Best regards,

Janet

Janet Scullin

Customer Support

Readex - NewsBank


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 10 17:00:19 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:00:19 -0400
Subject: pegu
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.130019.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For the purposes of lexicographic research, I determined to check out
the pegu recipe Barry unearthed for us last week:

>Pegu
>
>George Orwell, a British colonial police officer in Burma during the
>'20s, observed that the past belongs to those who control the
>present. When it comes to the nearly forgotten Pegu cocktail, few
>words could ring truer.
>
>Between the '20s and the '40s, no other exotic mix was as popular as
>this drink, which hails from the Pegu Club, located in a small town
>of nearly the same name. The bar was about 50 miles outside Rangoon,
>the capital of Burma - the country we refuse to call Myanmar, now
>better known for its infamous drug-producing region, the Golden
>Triangle.
>
>According to Harry Craddock's Savoy Cocktail Club of 1930, people
>traveled the world round and asked everyone for this drink. But at
>about the time Orwell penned "Big Brother is watching you" and Burma
>gained its so-called independence, the Pegu vanished.
>
>Fortunately for us, though, the Pegu is finally in resurgence,
>meaning that this inspiring gin cocktail has been sighted at bars
>that we frequent. With 1 1/2 ounces gin, 1/2 ounce Cointreau, 1/2
>ounce lime juice, and a few dashes of Angostura bitters, all shaken
>with ice and strained into a chilled cocktail glass, the Pegu makes
>for a pungent drink that stimulates the senses and soothes the soul.
>
>http://hotwired.wired.com/cocktail/96/16/index4a.html
>

I can vouch for its excellence (even when a tablespoon of cheap
Triple Sec past its pull date is substituted for the specified
Cointreau, and suburban New Haven substituted for exurban Rangoon).
Just in case anyone was wondering.

Larry


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Thu Jun 10 17:25:03 2004
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally Donlon)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:25:03 -0500
Subject: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.122503.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, as a "native" American speaker and, worse, deep Southerner, I am regularly
ridiculed (locally and by friends and family across the US) for my schwa-ended
pronunciation of the vehicle made by Porsche. I also distinguish between "w" and
"hw" and hear no end of grief on that count from my adolescent daughter and her
friends.

Also, here in Cajun Country, where there exists a slight and barely conscious,
albeit historically supported, disdain for most things British, I know of a retired
racehorse named "Quick Sotti." The new owner, a friend who'd performed in "The Man
of La Mancha" during undergraduate school, didn't recognize the connection until I
wrote the horse's name down and walked her through it.

It leapt right out to me, I believe, because I do pronounce "quixotic" as if it
were English, which it is (isn't it?). And I've always assumed that the Brits
coined the adjective following on their original Anglicization of "Quixote."

Am I incorrect in all of this?

sally donlon

P.S. I also have always thought "coup de gras" had no pronounced "s" on the end.
We're so used to pronouncing "Mardi Gras" without that "s" that I guess it just
carries over for us.  -sod-

Damien Hall wrote:

> Fritz Juengling said:
>
> =================
>
> "I think you are suggesting that 'porsch' is a spelling pronunciation.  I agree
> with that.  But why should a spelling pronunciation take over?  English
> speakers must have seen the cars before they heard any German speaker sayh the
> name of the car.?
> Still seems odd that a name, and a well-known one at that, should be
> mispronounced."
>
> =================
>
> It doesn't strike me as odd really.  Whether or not British English speakers
> saw
> Porsches before they heard any German speaker say the name, I think there would
> be a frequency effect that would lead to the spelling pronunciation taking
> over, since most British English speakers who used the name of the car would be
> doing so after having seen it written on the car rather than after having heard
> a German say it.
>
> The reason it doesn't strike me as odd is my own observation that Brits do
> nativise a lot;  of course, 'a lot' is relative, and it only becomes obvious
> that 'a lot' of nativisation goes on in British English when you compare that
> amount with the smaller amount of nativisation done by, say, Americans.
> However common the name, I'm therefore not surprised to see it nativised;  the
> (Don) ['kwiksuht] example is another very good one.  The work I mentioned
> before statistically supports the idea that Brits tend to nativise much more
> than Americans.  I was interested to hear from Susan though that the 'native'
> American pronunciation of 'Porsche' may actually be the same as the British
> one.  That's one more indication that my theory, which I admit is based mostly
> on French and Spanish words, needs to be more nuanced.
>
> =================
>
> Then:
>
> "Don't the Brits also say 'Don joo-un' instead of 'don (h)wan' and 'don
> kwikset'
> instead of 'don kee-ho-tay/tee'?  Ouch!  (I can't even give in to 'kwiksotic'
> even tho I am not a Spanish speaker).  I'd be interested to see some
> nativisation or pronunciation studies."
>
> ================
>
> Well ...  'Don joo-un', as far as I'm aware, is only the Byron poem.
> Elsewhere,
> it's usually [don hwan], as, for example, when you're using the name to refer
> to someone who's a 'Casanova', a 'ladykiller' (to mix my metaphors - sorry).
> And, yes, I do, unapologetically(!), say 'don kwikset' (the last vowel is a
> schwa).  Call it inverse snobbery if you like, and I think maybe it *is*, but I
> think many Brits would think it was pretentious to use the actual Spanish
> pronunciation in an otherwise English phrase, and I'm pretty sure that use of
> the Sp pronunciation in an English context is limited to specialists:  literary
> people and Hispanicists.
>
> So, if you/one say(s) [ki'hoteh / ki'hoti] for 'Quixote', can someone tell me
> how 'quixotic' is pronounced?   That, of course, is just an English word, so it
> would seem really strange to me to pronounce it any other way than the English
> [kwIk'sotik].
>
> Fascinated,
>
> Damien Hall
> University of Pennsylvania


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Jun 10 17:46:41 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 10:46:41 -0700
Subject: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
In-Reply-To: <40C8996F.ED5B8F87@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.104641.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hey--I think I see great potential here for some city (probably some dour
northern place, like New Haven) that may have felt out-reveled by New
Orleans: the new holiday Coudi Gras!

Peter Mc.

--On Thursday, June 10, 2004 12:25 PM -0500 Sally Donlon
<sod at LOUISIANA.EDU> wrote:

> P.S. I also have always thought "coup de gras" had no pronounced "s" on
> the end. We're so used to pronouncing "Mardi Gras" without that "s" that
> I guess it just carries over for us.  -sod-



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 10 18:08:32 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:08:32 -0400
Subject: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
In-Reply-To: <40C8996F.ED5B8F87@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.140832.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:25 PM -0500 6/10/04, Sally Donlon wrote:
>
>P.S. I also have always thought "coup de gras" had no pronounced "s"
>on the end.

"coup de gras" wouldn't.  "coup de grace", on the other hand...

>We're so used to pronouncing "Mardi Gras" without that "s" that I
>guess it just
>carries over for us.

But we (sometimes) call the latter "Fat Tuesday".  Do people really
think of the "coup de grace" blow as having some connection with fat?
I'm not trying to be prescriptive, just wondering what the intuitive
connections are.

L


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun 10 19:53:48 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:53:48 -0400
Subject: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
In-Reply-To: <p04320400bcee539f04ec@[130.132.231.227]>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.155348.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I suspect the source of the problem is that we hear these terms more than
we read them.  So, if  the prevailing pronunciation has no 's', and if one
might have heard or seen "foie gras," the 'gras' is carried over to "coup
de gras."  I wonder what people do with "coup d'etat"?  I also suspect none
of these French words have individual meaning for most English speakers
(gras, etat, grace, mardi, even coup); the phrases are just picked up whole.

At 02:08 PM 6/10/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>At 12:25 PM -0500 6/10/04, Sally Donlon wrote:
>>
>>P.S. I also have always thought "coup de gras" had no pronounced "s"
>>on the end.
>
>"coup de gras" wouldn't.  "coup de grace", on the other hand...
>
>>We're so used to pronouncing "Mardi Gras" without that "s" that I
>>guess it just
>>carries over for us.
>
>But we (sometimes) call the latter "Fat Tuesday".  Do people really
>think of the "coup de grace" blow as having some connection with fat?
>I'm not trying to be prescriptive, just wondering what the intuitive
>connections are.
>
>L


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Jun 10 21:31:25 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:31:25 -0700
Subject: Prescriptive question
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.143125.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I know better than to ask the denizens of this list to BE prescriptive, but
in this case I'm not sure whether a prescriptive "rule" exists anymore,
even for prescriptivists.  I've tried the Chicago Manual of Style on this
one, but no luck.  I don't have any other style manuals handy.

The case is embodied in sentences like:

"The Burgville Philharmonic invites you to subscribe to our upcoming
concert season."

Have even the prescriptivists dropped an earlier insistence on changing
"our" to "its," or is this prescription alive and well for formal writing?

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From preston at MSU.EDU  Thu Jun 10 22:09:48 2004
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 18:09:48 -0400
Subject: Prescriptive question
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1086877885@[10.218.203.245]>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.180948.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Why is it so hard to see the "lurking we" (I know, I should eschew
>technical terms) here?

dInIs



>I know better than to ask the denizens of this list to BE prescriptive, but
>in this case I'm not sure whether a prescriptive "rule" exists anymore,
>even for prescriptivists.  I've tried the Chicago Manual of Style on this
>one, but no luck.  I don't have any other style manuals handy.
>
>The case is embodied in sentences like:
>
>"The Burgville Philharmonic invites you to subscribe to our upcoming
>concert season."
>
>Have even the prescriptivists dropped an earlier insistence on changing
>"our" to "its," or is this prescription alive and well for formal writing?
>
>Peter Mc.
>
>*****************************************************************
>Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Jun 10 22:31:19 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:31:19 -0700
Subject: Prescriptive question
In-Reply-To: <a06020400bcee8c7b9a17@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.153119.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's not at all hard to see the "lurking we," which is probably why "our"
in this construction is so common no matter what people's high school
English teachers tried to tell them.  But I remember being taught that "it"
was de rigueur in formal writing, and I wonder if there are still those who
would go "tsk! tsk!" at the "we."


--On Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:09 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston"
<preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:

>> Why is it so hard to see the "lurking we" (I know, I should eschew
>> technical terms) here?
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
>> I know better than to ask the denizens of this list to BE prescriptive,
>> but in this case I'm not sure whether a prescriptive "rule" exists
>> anymore, even for prescriptivists.  I've tried the Chicago Manual of
>> Style on this one, but no luck.  I don't have any other style manuals
>> handy.
>>
>> The case is embodied in sentences like:
>>
>> "The Burgville Philharmonic invites you to subscribe to our upcoming
>> concert season."
>>
>> Have even the prescriptivists dropped an earlier insistence on changing
>> "our" to "its," or is this prescription alive and well for formal
>> writing?
>>
>> Peter Mc.
>>
>> *****************************************************************
>> Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
>> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
>         Asian and African Languages
> Wells Hall A-740
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
> Office: (517) 353-0740
> Fax: (517) 432-2736



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 11 00:54:23 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:54:23 EDT
Subject: "Chitlin' Circuit" (OT:Ray Charles dies) (1967); New
 Newspaperarchive
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.205423.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PRIOR POST:  The end of my "Tinker-to-Evers-to-Chance" and "Price-Fixed" post
might have been mangled by HTML code.  It might be more legible in the
archives.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"CHITLIN' CIRCUIT"

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040610/D834E06O0.html
Grammy-Winner Ray Charles Dies at 73
Jun 10, 6:26 PM (ET)
By ANTHONY BREZNICAN
BEVERLY HILLS, Calif. (AP) - Ray Charles, a transcendent talent who erased
musical boundaries between the sacred and the secular with hits such as "What'd
I Say,""Georgia on My Mind" and "I Can't Stop Loving You," died Thursday. He
was 73.
(...)
By the time he was 15 his parents were dead and Charles had graduated from
St. Augustine. He wound up playing gigs in black dance halls - the so-called
chitlin' circuit - and exposed himself to a variety of music, including hillbilly
(he learned to yodel) before moving to Seattle.


   Ray Charles was 15 in 1945, but the HDAS has 1974 for "chitlin circuit."
It was allegedly first used by singer Lou Rawls.
   Compare "chitlin' circuit" with "borscht circuit."  Entertainers + food!


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 Valley News    Sunday, October 02, 1977 Van Nuys, California
...it together on weekends, playing the CHITLIN CIRCUIT and learning all the
pop.....we started to make our plans." The "CHITLIN CIRCUIT" carried them to
Harlem..

   Gettysburg Times     Monday, August 29, 1977 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania
...has focused on since starting on the "CHITLIN' CIRCUIT" of black night
clubs..

   Indiana Gazette  Friday, September 02, 1977 Indiana, Pennsylvania
...has focused on since starting on the "CHITLIN' CIRCUIT" of black night
clubs..

   Edwardsville Intelligencer   Friday, July 23, 1971 Edwardsville, Illinois

...used to play the little clubs on the "CHITLIN CIRCUIT" in the 'South, but
now.....is a veteran of the county fair CIRCUIT. He enjoys the atmosphere so..

 Lincoln Evening Journal    Tuesday, October 14, 1975 Lincoln, Nebraska
...Carol Rogers on what she calls "the CHITLIN CIRCUIT of Omaha" anymore.
She..

 News Journal   Saturday, October 09, 1976 Mansfield, Ohio
...his for the hoots and hollers of the CHITLIN' CIRCUIT. He also sang backup
on..

 Advocate   Wednesday, October 20, 1976 Newark, Ohio
...his for the hoots and hollers of the CHITLIN' CIRCUIT. He also sang backup
on..

 Times Recorder     Sunday, May 28, 1967 Zanesville, Ohio
...it. He used to sing on what he calls CHITLIN' CIRCUIT so small you had
to..
Pg. 2-B, col. 5:
_Climb To Top_
_Long For Rawls_
   HOLLYWOOD (NEA)--Lou Rawls is another of those overnight successes--a
sudden smash after 27 years if experience.  He says he's singing now the same as
he did when he first started entertaining, at 7, but it's only in the last few
years that the great American public has found him.
   "Three years ago," Lou says, "I was living in a motel room.  Now I've got
this fine house.  Three years ago, I was making $125 a week.  Now I get
$10,000.  Man, I can't believe it."
   He used to sing on what he calls "the chitlin' circuit"--"places so small
you had to dress in the men's room."  Now he packs them in at the Cocoanut
Grove.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  B.B. King Sings the Blues Evra Day, Evra Day; B. B. King sings the
blues BLUES ON PARADE
By MICHAEL LYDON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 27,
1968. p. SM36 (9 pages)
Second page, photo caption:  After 20 years on the "chitlin circuit," he is
being noticed as one of the bluesmen of genius.

    2.  The Story Of the Blues; By Paul Oliver. Illustrated. 176 pp.
Philadelphia: Chilton Book Company. $12.50.
By ARNOLD SHAW. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 19,
1969. p. BR18 (1 page)

    3.  For B.B. King, Blues Reign Supreme
By JOHN S. WILSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun
12, 1970. p. 29 (1 page)

    4.  Labelle Not Out to Sell Its Soul Short
By JOHN ROCKWELL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 7,
1975. p. 50 (1 page)

    5.  Music: Lou Rawls on Broadway
By JOHN S. WILSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov
25, 1977. p. 90 (1 page)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
NEW NEWSPAPERARCHIVE

   Newspaperarchive.com has changed.  First impressions:
   The "thumbnails" are much improved and actually resemble English...The
text that first pops up is way too small to be read...The "Recently Added"
helps...The "Recipe of the Day" is weak...


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 11 01:14:52 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:14:52 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Early=20American=20Newsp?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?aper"=20is=20late?=
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.211452.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It would be useful to me--and maybe some others--if Barry would give us her 
e-mail address. I would definitely want the Duke library to subscribe. Or, if 
private subscriptions are available, I might do it myself!

In a message dated 6/10/04 12:41:53 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:


>    I e-mailed READEX again.  "Early American Newspapers" was due out "first 
> quarter 2004," then "end of May."  Now it's "end of June."
>    At last night's Culinary Historians of NY event, I told the CHNY 
> president that we shouldn't do the OXFROD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK 
> without it.  There might be a "cocktail" in it.  She didn't know about the 
> database.  Of course, she didn't know about me, either...
> 
> Barry Popik
> 
> Dear Mr. Popik,
> 
> Thank you for your email.  Currently we anticipate the initial release date 
> of our Early American Newspapers-Digital Edition to be released at the end of 
> this month (June).  If you would like, when it does become available I will 
> notify you as I see that the New York Public Library has indeed purchased 
> access to it.
> 
> Please confirm if you would like email notification when it is available.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Janet
> 
> Janet Scullin
> 
> Customer Support
> 
> Readex - NewsBank
> 
> 


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun 11 01:45:02 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:45:02 -0400
Subject: Jasbo = Bozo (1914)
In-Reply-To: <12c.43de98ce.2df964e0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.214502.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here (from N'archive) is "jasbo" apparently meaning "bozo"/"dummy":

----------

_Edwardsville Intelligencer_ (Edwardsville IL), 10 March 1914: p. 2(?):

[Comic strip]

<<I KNEW A JASBO ONCE WHO READ ABOUT A CHAP GETTING PAID $5,000. DAMAGES
FOR BEING STRUCK BY AN AUTO AND THINKING IT WAS EASY MONEY /

HE TRIED IT. -- WAITED UNTIL HE SAW AN EXPENSIVE LOOKING CAR (WITH A SOFT
RADIATOR) AND ACCIDENTALLY STEPPED IN FRONT AND /

THE PARTY THEN STOPPED THEIR CAR, CAME BACK AND GATHERED HIM TOGETHER -- HE
WAS SPILLED ALL OVER THE ROAD AND /

THINKING HIM DEAD AND NOT CARING TO SPEND THE REST OF THEIR LIVES IN JAIL
-- THEY CHUCKED THE JASBO IN THE BACK OF THE TONNEAU AND -- /

BEAT IT RIGHT PAST THE HOSPITAL ON OUT INTO THE COUNTRY WHERE THEY SPEEDED
UP TO 72 AND THEN DROPPED THE MUSSED UP HUMAN OVER A CONVENIENT FENCE AND
KEPT RIGHT ON GOING -- /

AND THE JASBO DECORATED THE SPOT WHERE HE LIT FOR TWO DAYS IN A MUCH
COMEE-JOSE CONDITION AND ONLY CAME TO -- WHEN A SQUIRREL NIBBLED THE END OF
HIS NOSE FOR A NUT AND AS HE /

HAD FORGOTTEN THE NUMBER OF THE CAR -- HE WAS OBLIGED TO PASS UP HIS $5,000
DAMAGE SUIT AND GO GET HIM AN HONEST JOB>>

----------

-- Doug Wilson


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Jun 11 02:10:44 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:10:44 -0400
Subject: hoopers
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.221044.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From an article in the NYTimes of June 10, 2004 (section B, p. 1, col. 2) on malefactors who have been capturing pigeons from NYC parks and carrying them to Pennsylvania where they serve as targets at gun clubs.  The malefactors throw down crumbs or seeds and catch the pigeons under a net.  The article refers to them as "netters", but "Edwin, a Bronx pet store owner who . . . asked that his last name not be used," who is an authority on the subject, differs.  ""Actually," he said, "they're called hoopers because thay use hoop-shaoed hand-held-nets.""

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Jun 11 02:17:14 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:17:14 -0400
Subject: C. O. (Correction Officer)
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.221714.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is an initialism that isn't in HDAS.  From a story in the NYTimes, Sunday, June 6, 2004, "City" section, p. 4, col. 4, a narrative by Daryl Letsome, a retired guard at the jail on Riker's Island.

"As a correction officer, you have to know how to interact with the inmates.  The inmates are dependent on the guards.  "C. O., can I get into my cell?"  "C. O., can I use the phone?"  They have no other alternative."

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Fri Jun 11 02:19:33 2004
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:19:33 -0400
Subject: C. O. (Correction Officer)
In-Reply-To: <22aff0922ad9d0.22ad9d022aff09@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.221933.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, George Thompson wrote:

>"As a correction officer, you have to know how to interact with the
inmates.  The inmates are dependent on the guards.  "C. O., can I get
into my cell?"  "C. O., can I use the phone?"  They have no other
alternative."

Are <They> the inmates or the officers?

Bethany


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Jun 11 02:32:57 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:32:57 -0400
Subject: Shandy-Lack revisited
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.223257.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You folks doubtless remember the discussion a year or so ago of the Shandy-Lack Theory of Onomastic Determinism, a hypothesis that a person's life is determined by his or her name, first proposed by Walter Shandy in the 18th century novel Tristram Shandy, and confirmed by the research of David Lack, a British ornithologist, who observed a striking number of ornithologists (other than himself) whose name was the name of a bird or of a part of a bird.

Confirming evidence comes from a recent article in Discover magazine, which cites a marine biologist named Herring.  But counter-evidence is found in the NYTimes of June 2,  2004, section A, p. 1, col. 3 and continued on p. A15, which profiles Stephanie Vowell, who obviously should be a philologist, but is in fact a stripper in a Los Vegas club.  However, she evidently  realizes that she is nearing the end of her career as a stripper, and needs to make plans for the rest of her life, so perhaps philology will be her second career.  If she should enroll in a linguistics program near you, you may recognize her as "a small-town Midwesterner, a self-described "big fake blond" who stands 6-foot-3 in her 7 1/2 inch heels with a fake blond ponytail, fake eyelashes, fake green eyes, a fake tan and fake breasts."  If still in doubt, try calling "hey, Trixie" and see if she responds.

In any event, until we see where Ms Vowell goes when she leaves Vegas, the Shandy-Lack Theory probably should be conceded to be controversial.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Jun 11 02:39:32 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:39:32 -0400
Subject: C. O. (Correction Officer)
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.223932.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The paragraph ended there, but I would read it as saying that the inmates have no alternative but to ask the officers for favors or permission to do simple things.  If the inmates were not the subject of the last sentence, I would expect it to be construed as if the subject was "officer" rather than "guards", and the sentence to be cast in the singular.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 10, 2004 10:19 pm
Subject: Re: C. O. (Correction Officer)

> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, George Thompson wrote:
>
> >"As a correction officer, you have to know how to interact with the
> inmates.  The inmates are dependent on the guards.  "C. O., can I get
> into my cell?"  "C. O., can I use the phone?"  They have no other
> alternative."
>
> Are <They> the inmates or the officers?
>
> Bethany
>


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Jun 11 03:00:23 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:00:23 -0400
Subject: Antedating of quarterback sneak 1919
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.230023.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED/M-W have 1923.

12 Oct. 1919  _Sandusky(OH) Register_  13/1 (Newspaperarchive)

<<In the second period, Wilce's machine got under way, scoring through Stinchcomb's quarterback sneak, an end run, and another dropkick by Harley.>>

Go Bucs!

Sam Clements


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jun 11 04:56:23 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:56:23 -0700
Subject: Prescriptive question
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1086877885@[10.218.203.245]>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.215623.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 10, 2004, at 2:31 PM, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> I know better than to ask the denizens of this list to BE
> prescriptive, but
> in this case I'm not sure whether a prescriptive "rule" exists anymore,
> even for prescriptivists.  I've tried the Chicago Manual of Style on
> this
> one, but no luck.  I don't have any other style manuals handy.
>
> The case is embodied in sentences like:
>
> "The Burgville Philharmonic invites you to subscribe to our upcoming
> concert season."
>
> Have even the prescriptivists dropped an earlier insistence on
> changing "our" to "its," or is this prescription alive and well for
> formal writing?

i've checked out eight handbooks -- four in the fowler tradition, four
manuals for college students -- and don't see this specific case
discussed or exemplified, though it would of course come under the
general rubric of pronouns having to agree with their antecedents in
person, number, and gender.  everybody's much exercised about pronouns
with indefinites as antecedents, and many of the books care a lot about
switches between various generic pronouns ("one", "you", "they"), but
no one seems to mention the lurking "we".

somewhere i have some nice cites of this, along the lines of "Lesbians
are finally making ourselves visible" -- though i myself find the
non-reflexive examples much easier to get than the reflexive ones.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 11 07:31:00 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 03:31:00 EDT
Subject: Late to/for his own funeral (1881); C. O.,
 Early American Newspapers
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.033100.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS--I'm dying for that first American _sandwich_!
www.readex.com.
Janet Scullin, Customer Support, jscullin at newsbank.com
CustService at newsbank.com
sales at newsbank.com

C.O.--In real estate-obsessed New York City, it will always mean "Certificate
of Occupancy."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
LATE TO/FOR HIS OWN FUNERAL

   Today (Friday) is Ronald Reagan's funeral.  I heard this phrase used; I
haven't yet checked for it on the American Periodical Series database.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
   Bangor Daily Whig And Courier    Saturday, March 12, 1881 Bangor, Maine
...you .would .manage to be LATE FOR YOUR OWN FUNERAL." J'That would not
depend.....orir destination I never was exactly LATE, but I often, made by the
shortest..

 Evening Observer   Friday, October 12, 1883 Dunkirk, New York
...you would manage to be LATE FOR YOUR OWN FUNERAL." ''That would not
depend.....have convinced him of being just too LATE FOR once, I should have
something..

   Manitoba Free Press  Monday, June 19, 1922 Winnipeg, Manitoba
...J Man Arrives Several Days LATE FOR HIS OWN FUNERAL June18. J. H.
Vance.....to find he was several days LATE FOR OWN funeial. The body of. a..

   Sheboygan Press  Thursday, June 13, 1935 Sheboygan, Wisconsin
...1898 "He's so slow he'll be LATE TO HIS OWN FUNERAL." Just So You Know
And.....a judgment in Keeping w'1" j outh wore HIS hat on the back of HIS creTr..


   Zanesville Signal    Sunday, December 20, 1936 Zanesville, Ohio
...Kas., Dec. 19 W) A raaa was LATE to HIS OWN FUNERAL here. The
Methodist.....Fifth Street Phone 131 MAN IS LATE FOR HIS OWN FUNERAL Russell..

   Sheboygan Press  Monday, February 07, 1938 Sheboygan, Wisconsin
...on it. Nifty, 1898 "He'll be LATE TO HIS OWN FUNERAL." Add Observations
An.....because of HIS sincerity, HIS courage, HIS industry, HIS
level-headedness, HIS..

 Tri City Herald    Thursday, January 31, 1957 Pasco, Washington
...FOR Kennewick, may not be LATE FOR HIS OWN FUNERAL, but he wasn't
exactly.....in HIS favor, FOR the reason behind HIS tardiness lay in HIS efFORt to..
 News Journal   Tuesday, September 21, 1971 Mansfield, Ohio
...up to the cliche, "He'd be LATE FOR HIS OWN FUNERAL." And imagine the joy
of.....t go one step further and throw HIS OWN FUNERAL. Psychiatrists have
long..

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
SLIPPING THE LARIAT OVER
BY WILL ROGERS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 17,
1923. p. XX2 (1 page):
      _Funeral Speedsters._
   Then they show the Modern Hearses, which go so fast they killed more
people than they carried.  You know we don't stop to realize it now, but in the old
days it was nothing for a man to be late to his own Funeral.

.   MONEY FOR NOTHING
P G Wodehouse. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.:
Jun 2, 1929. p. I1 (10 pages)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 11 14:36:52 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 10:36:52 -0400
Subject: Recent Computer Quotations
In-Reply-To: <145.2bb93ec5.2dfab9b4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.103652.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would welcome contributions of recent (last 5 or 10 years)
computer-related quotations and proverbial sayings.  Past requests of this
sort have resulted in contributions of specialized geeky quotes that are
not of much value to me; I am looking for sayings of broad popularity and
significance.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 11 15:31:09 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:31:09 -0400
Subject: Origin of "joe" (coffee)--"Old Black Joe" (coffee without
 cream)              in 1911 cartoon
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.113109.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

Gerald's upload reminds me of the old saying which I have heard so many
times. A waitress asks a customer how he likes his coffee , and he replies,
"The same way I like my women: hot and black."

There is no question about the derivation of this.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Cohen" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 9:51 PM
Subject: Origin of "joe" (coffee)--"Old Black Joe" (coffee without cream) in
1911 cartoon


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Gerald Cohen <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
> Subject:      Origin of "joe" (coffee)--"Old Black Joe" (coffee without
cream)
>               in 1911 cartoon
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
>       HDAS says tentatively about "joe" (coffee; esp. in Navy):
> "perhaps as suggested in 1980 quote; the Foster song was extremely
> popular." ---1980: Mack & Connell, _Naval Trads._ (5th edition) 260:
> 'Some sailors call coffee "joe," which some say is a derivative of
> [Stephen] Foster's song, "Old Black Joe."'
>
>       Barry Popik sent me a 1911 'Osgar und Adolf' cartoon in
> connection with 'hot dog,' and one character speaks of 'Old Black
> Joe' meaning coffee without cream. [It fits into the context of
> hashhouse lingo,  and Jack Smiley mentions 'joe' (coffee) in his 1941
> book _Hash house Lingo_.]
>
>       The 1911 information is:
> 'Osgar und Adolf' cartoon, by Condo; title: 'Every Little Melody Has
> Meaning of It's [apostrophe: sic] Own'; _Tacoma Times_; , Feb. 27,
> 1911, p.4. (Misspellings below: sic) ---
> First frame, Osgar to Adolf: 'Diss moosik box shoult make you der
> orders plain, Adolf.  For instance ven id plays "Old Black Joe" id
> means coffee mitoudt cream. "Bring me a rose" means Limberger
> cheece--und "Come under my plaidie" means oatmeal porridge.'
>         Adolf replies: 'So?'
> Second frame, music box sings out: 'Hush-a-bye, baby, don't you cry'
> and 'Daddy buy me a bow-wow'
>         Adolf says: "I see, "Don'd you cry" means peeled onions and
> "bow wow" means sissage.'
> [Four more frames follow.]
>
> ----Gerald Cohen


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Jun 11 15:53:12 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:53:12 -0400
Subject: one...two...three... mum
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.115312.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just came upon a group of middle school students playing a game of catch
involving 6 or 8 players.  I don't have my normal resources at hand.  Is
this a well-documented term...  "1, 2, 3, mum"?  The players are not
allowed to speak or drop the ball on pain of expulsion from the round of
the game.


Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Jun 11 15:54:46 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:54:46 -0700
Subject: Prescriptive question
In-Reply-To: <B01CD302-BB63-11D8-95DD-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.085446.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gee, thanks for the free research, Arnold!  I was surprised not to find a
reference to this in the Chicago manual, and I'm even more surprised to
hear it's absent from EIGHT other manuals.  The question, of course, is
whether the manuals omit it because they've decided there's nothing wrong
with the "lurking we" or because they think it's such an obvious no-no that
it isn't even worth mentioning.

Peter Mc.

--On Thursday, June 10, 2004 9:56 PM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky"
<zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU> wrote:

> On Jun 10, 2004, at 2:31 PM, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>
>> I know better than to ask the denizens of this list to BE
>> prescriptive, but
>> in this case I'm not sure whether a prescriptive "rule" exists anymore,
>> even for prescriptivists.  I've tried the Chicago Manual of Style on
>> this
>> one, but no luck.  I don't have any other style manuals handy.
>>
>> The case is embodied in sentences like:
>>
>> "The Burgville Philharmonic invites you to subscribe to our upcoming
>> concert season."
>>
>> Have even the prescriptivists dropped an earlier insistence on
>> changing "our" to "its," or is this prescription alive and well for
>> formal writing?
>
> i've checked out eight handbooks -- four in the fowler tradition, four
> manuals for college students -- and don't see this specific case
> discussed or exemplified, though it would of course come under the
> general rubric of pronouns having to agree with their antecedents in
> person, number, and gender.  everybody's much exercised about pronouns
> with indefinites as antecedents, and many of the books care a lot about
> switches between various generic pronouns ("one", "you", "they"), but
> no one seems to mention the lurking "we".
>
> somewhere i have some nice cites of this, along the lines of "Lesbians
> are finally making ourselves visible" -- though i myself find the
> non-reflexive examples much easier to get than the reflexive ones.
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 11 16:03:53 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:03:53 -0400
Subject: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.120353.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

When I grew up coop dee grass was used as a joke.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> At 12:25 PM -0500 6/10/04, Sally Donlon wrote:
> >
> >P.S. I also have always thought "coup de gras" had no pronounced "s"
> >on the end.
>
> "coup de gras" wouldn't.  "coup de grace", on the other hand...
>
> >We're so used to pronouncing "Mardi Gras" without that "s" that I
> >guess it just
> >carries over for us.
>
> But we (sometimes) call the latter "Fat Tuesday".  Do people really
> think of the "coup de grace" blow as having some connection with fat?
> I'm not trying to be prescriptive, just wondering what the intuitive
> connections are.
>
> L


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 11 16:08:23 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:08:23 -0400
Subject: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.120823.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

It is difficult to generalize about all of the different pronunciations in
British English dialects but one which intrigues me is the way that an
English friend and I differ in the consonants we do or do not pronounce.

He always pronounces the h in herbs and once told me that he needed some
solder and had the damndest time trying to tell a US hardware store
employee what he wanted since he pronounced it the way it is written
complete with the letter l.

I will not guess what the word pronounced in the US as sodder might mean in
the UK, but I would guess that it is impolite on the grounds that "the old
sod" as he would use it does not refer to Ireland. I will have to ask him
one
of these days.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Beverly Flanigan" <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> I suspect the source of the problem is that we hear these terms more than
> we read them.  So, if  the prevailing pronunciation has no 's', and if one
> might have heard or seen "foie gras," the 'gras' is carried over to "coup
> de gras."  I wonder what people do with "coup d'etat"?  I also suspect
none
> of these French words have individual meaning for most English speakers
> (gras, etat, grace, mardi, even coup); the phrases are just picked up
whole.
>
> At 02:08 PM 6/10/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> >At 12:25 PM -0500 6/10/04, Sally Donlon wrote:
> >>
> >>P.S. I also have always thought "coup de gras" had no pronounced "s"
> >>on the end.
> >
> >"coup de gras" wouldn't.  "coup de grace", on the other hand...
> >
> >>We're so used to pronouncing "Mardi Gras" without that "s" that I
> >>guess it just
> >>carries over for us.
> >
> >But we (sometimes) call the latter "Fat Tuesday".  Do people really
> >think of the "coup de grace" blow as having some connection with fat?
> >I'm not trying to be prescriptive, just wondering what the intuitive
> >connections are.
> >
> >L


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jun 11 16:24:46 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:24:46 -0700
Subject: Prescriptive question
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1086944086@[10.218.203.245]>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.092446.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 11, 2004, at 8:54 AM, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> Gee, thanks for the free research, Arnold!

there's a lot of that going around in this list.  we even have larry
horn doing recipe testing for us!

i have a very large (and ever-growing) collection of handbooks,
manuals, textbooks, and usage dictionaries, and it's not hard to pick
out a few and riffle through them.  it can be a little tricky to figure
out where pronoun-antecedent relationships will be classified (under
agreement, antecedent, concord, pronoun, or what), and you have to look
at the examples and exercises, because these often introduce types of
sentences that are not explicitly mentioned in the rules, but i've had
lots of experience (by now) in dealing with this.

i do have to be at my library/study/office (officially named Kirjasto
Zwicky), 'cause that's where the linguistics books are.  when i'm
working from home, all i have is my fallible memory and a few sources
(AHD4, NSOED2, MWDEU, the quirk grammar, huddleston/pullum, walker's
rhyming dictionary, among them; yes, i have duplicate copies of these)
.

>  I was surprised not to find a
> reference to this in the Chicago manual, and I'm even more surprised to
> hear it's absent from EIGHT other manuals.  The question, of course, is
> whether the manuals omit it because they've decided there's nothing
> wrong with the "lurking we" or because they think it's such an obvious
> no-no that it isn't even worth mentioning.

exactly.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun 11 18:18:19 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:18:19 -0400
Subject: Shandy-Lack revisited
In-Reply-To: <20040611040216.7E63022861@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.141819.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

George Thompson wrote:

         >>>
You folks doubtless remember the discussion a year or so ago of the
Shandy-Lack Theory of Onomastic Determinism, a hypothesis that a person's
life is determined by his or her name, first proposed by Walter Shandy in
the 18th century novel Tristram Shandy, and confirmed by the research of
David Lack, a British ornithologist, who observed a striking number of
ornithologists (other than himself) whose name was the name of a bird or of
a part of a bird.
        <<<

Gee, and here I was thinking it was an explanation for why I feel so down at
the moment: an insufficiency of an appropriate fizzy drink.

OED Online:

shandy, n: Short for SHANDYGAFF. Also, a mixture of beer and fizzy lemonade.

shandygaff, n: A drink composed of a mixture of beer and ginger-beer.


Mark A. Mandel, Research Administrator
Biomedical Information Extraction, Linguistic Data Consortium
University of Pennsylvania
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Jun 11 21:45:15 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:45:15 -0500
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.164515.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A colleague has asked me about the meaning of "A high tuck-a-haw" in
the lyrics of the song "Turkey in the Straw."  Would anyone know?
The relevant verse is:

        Turkey in the straw,
        Turkey in the straw,
        Roll 'em up and twist 'em up
        A high tuck a-haw
        And hit 'em up a tune called
        Turkey in the Straw.

Also, what does "Roll 'em up and twist 'em up" refer to?

Gerald Cohen


From patty at CRUZIO.COM  Fri Jun 11 22:08:03 2004
From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:08:03 -0700
Subject: one...two...three... mum
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e01b265a23b9aca00228043e3.1b265c1@chain.highland s.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.150803.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hello David - I have a 13 year old daughter who walked in the room when
your message came up ;)  She says she has heard of this game at her middle
school but that 'it is not played with a ball, but different objects'.  We
are on the west coast.

Patty


At 08:53 AM 6/11/04, you wrote:
>I just came upon a group of middle school students playing a game of catch
>involving 6 or 8 players.  I don't have my normal resources at hand.  Is
>this a well-documented term...  "1, 2, 3, mum"?  The players are not
>allowed to speak or drop the ball on pain of expulsion from the round of
>the game.
>
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>barnhart at highlands.com


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Jun 11 22:13:02 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:13:02 -0400
Subject: one...two...three... mum
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.181302.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patty Davies" <patty at CRUZIO.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: one...two...three... mum


> Hello David - I have a 13 year old daughter who walked in the room when
> your message came up ;)  She says she has heard of this game at her middle
> school but that 'it is not played with a ball, but different objects'.  We
> are on the west coast.
>
> Patty
>
>
> At 08:53 AM 6/11/04, you wrote:
> >I just came upon a group of middle school students playing a game of
catch
> >involving 6 or 8 players.  I don't have my normal resources at hand.  Is
> >this a well-documented term...  "1, 2, 3, mum"?  The players are not
> >allowed to speak or drop the ball on pain of expulsion from the round of
> >the game.
> >
> >
> >Regards,
> >David
> >
> >barnhart at highlands.com
>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Jun 11 22:21:43 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:21:43 -0400
Subject: hoopers/hoopies
In-Reply-To: <22ac45a22aa2c7.22aa2c722ac45a@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.182143.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This reminds me of a request I got out of the blue a few weeks ago:  Some
office folks in northern Ohio were talking about "funny" terms for people,
and they came up with "hoopies."  So they looked up Ohio dialects on
Google, found my name, and called me up.  They said the term connotes
"dumb," and one of them (I heard them all talking in the background) said
he'd heard a similar term, "Oopy," which he thought was PA
Dutch/German.  Does anyone have any idea what these terms mean and where
they came from??  I told the guy at the other end I'd e-mail him if I found
out anything.  (He was with First Energy Corp., of all things!)

At 10:10 PM 6/10/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> From an article in the NYTimes of June 10, 2004 (section B, p. 1, col. 2)
> on malefactors who have been capturing pigeons from NYC parks and
> carrying them to Pennsylvania where they serve as targets at gun
> clubs.  The malefactors throw down crumbs or seeds and catch the pigeons
> under a net.  The article refers to them as "netters", but "Edwin, a
> Bronx pet store owner who . . . asked that his last name not be used,"
> who is an authority on the subject, differs.  ""Actually," he said,
> "they're called hoopers because thay use hoop-shaped hand-held-nets.""
>
>GAT
>
>George A. Thompson
>Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
>Univ. Pr., 1998.


From jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU  Fri Jun 11 22:53:07 2004
From: jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 17:53:07 -0500
Subject: hoopers/hoopies
In-Reply-To: <0HZ60017K10LG9@smtp99.wiscmail.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.175307.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

See DARE, where "hoopy" = "hoosier," where "hoosier" means a rustic or
hillbilly.


At 06:21 PM 6/11/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: hoopers/hoopies
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>This reminds me of a request I got out of the blue a few weeks ago:  Some
>office folks in northern Ohio were talking about "funny" terms for people,
>and they came up with "hoopies."  So they looked up Ohio dialects on
>Google, found my name, and called me up.  They said the term connotes
>"dumb," and one of them (I heard them all talking in the background) said
>he'd heard a similar term, "Oopy," which he thought was PA
>Dutch/German.  Does anyone have any idea what these terms mean and where
>they came from??  I told the guy at the other end I'd e-mail him if I found
>out anything.  (He was with First Energy Corp., of all things!)
>
>At 10:10 PM 6/10/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> > From an article in the NYTimes of June 10, 2004 (section B, p. 1, col. 2)
> > on malefactors who have been capturing pigeons from NYC parks and
> > carrying them to Pennsylvania where they serve as targets at gun
> > clubs.  The malefactors throw down crumbs or seeds and catch the pigeons
> > under a net.  The article refers to them as "netters", but "Edwin, a
> > Bronx pet store owner who . . . asked that his last name not be used,"
> > who is an authority on the subject, differs.  ""Actually," he said,
> > "they're called hoopers because thay use hoop-shaped hand-held-nets.""
> >
> >GAT
> >
> >George A. Thompson
> >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> >Univ. Pr., 1998.


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun 11 22:48:42 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:48:42 -0400
Subject: hoopers/hoopies
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040611175139.0235ff78@wiscmail.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.184842.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>See DARE, where "hoopy" = "hoosier," where "hoosier" means a rustic or
>hillbilly.

There's also "hoople", sort of a general derogatory term, shown in HDAS.

-- Doug Wilson


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Jun 12 01:52:00 2004
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:52:00 -0700
Subject: "Morning in America" (1984); "Teflon" President (1983)
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.185200.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>

There's a possibly interesting story here: The 1942 book called
Morning in America that Barry cites was written by Willard Wiener, a
contributor to the left newspaper PM who's mentioned in Neal Gabler's
book on Walter Winchell.  The novel was actually based on the life of
the Revolutionary  general Charles Lee, but Wiener  added an epilogue
in which he asks the reader to accept his story as "a character study
of Charles Lee, an early American fascist."

In 1945, Wiener  wrote a book called  "Two hundred thousand flyers,
the story of the civilian AAF pilot training program," an account of
the same program that Ronald Reagan did documentary narrations for.
Wiener showed up in the 1950's as a Hollywood writer, though the only
writing credit I can find for him is an episode for the 50's dramatic
series "Four Star Playhouse," and I haven't been able to determine
whether RR ever guest-starred in any of these. There are more i's to
dot here, but it's quite possible that Reagan knew Wiener in one or
another of his capacities, or at least knew of his earlier book.

Geoff Nunberg


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 12 04:02:10 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:02:10 EDT
Subject: Reagan's "America is too great for small dreams" (1969, 1981,
 1984)
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.000210.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SMALL DREAMS + REAGAN--425 Google hits,  14 Google Groups hits

   Ronald Reagan used "small dreams" twice in his 1980s speeches.
   It appears to have been popularized by NASA in 1969.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: IM Ronald Reagan, died June 5, 2004
America is too great for small dreams. --Ronald W. Reagan The taxpayer --
that's
someone who works for the federal government but doesn't have to take a civil
...
alt.quotations - Jun 5, 2004 by Steven K. Robison - View Thread (53 articles)

Ronald Reagan: 1911-2004.
... ahead. "America is too great a country to dream small dreams." -
Ronald Reagan He said "tear down this wall," and they did. Not ...
alt.fan.tom-servo - Jun 8, 2004 by David E. Powell - View Thread (14 articles)

Reagan: We Are Americans
... 1981 This speech was delivered to the nation when President Reagan was
inaugurated ... to
realize that we're too great a nation to limit ourselves to small dreams. ...

alt.support.breast-implant - Jun 9, 2004 by Andrew Langer - View Thread (1
article)

Re: RIP President Reagan
Nicknamed "the Great Communicator," Ronald Reagan was both one of the best
political
orators of the 20th ... America is too great for small dreams." http://www
...
alt.sports.football.mn-vikings - Jun 5, 2004 by John - View Thread (33
articles)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 News Journal   Monday, March 04, 1968 Mansfield, Ohio
...are, at this tune anyway, dreaming no SMALL DREAMS. If we were geared up
for..
 Portsmouth Herald  Saturday, January 11, 1969 Portsmouth, New Hampshire
...the message fs that we should dream no SMALL DREAMS." Borman, replying for
the..
Pg. 1, col. 8:  Dr. Thomas O. Paine, acting administrator of the National
Aeronautics and Space Administration, was a member of the official party.  He
said, "Perhaps the message is that we should dream no small dreams."

 Times Bulletin     Wednesday, May 02, 1973 Van Wert, Ohio
...William Soldner to "dream no SMALL DREAMS, and lay no SMALL plans" in
their..
Pg. ?, col. 4 (YMCA fundraising--ed.):  They were urged by general campaign
chariman William Soldner to "dream no small dreams, and lay no small plans" in
their efforts to raise the money necessary to make new YMCA facilities a
reality for the citizens of Van Wert County.

 Times Bulletin     Saturday, November 23, 1974 Van Wert, Ohio
...can't do that, you say? Dream no SMALL DREAMS, think no SMALL thoughts.
Letters.....profit-making corporations, large and SMALL, have to pay federal and
state..

   Chronicle Telegram   Sunday, October 19, 1980 Elyria, Ohio
...t want a lot of mean littie men with SMALL DREAMS for slowing down the
rate.....system. I want a candidate who DREAMS big and then sets out to make
his..
 News   Tuesday, February 03, 1981 Frederick, Maryland
...great a nation to limit ourselves to SMALL DREAMS. We are not, as some
would.....great a nation to limit ourselves to SMALL DREAMS. Finnlly, it reminds
us..

 Frederick Post     Tuesday, February 03, 1981 Frederick, Maryland
...great z nation to limit ourselves to SMALL DREAMS. We are not, as some
would.....great a nation to limit ourselves to SMALL DREAMS. Finally, it reminds
us..


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("no small dreams")
    1.  <A HREF="http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0TO DISCOVER NOAH'S ARK.; Also to Perch Upon the North Pole.
Extraordinary Dream of Inventor Mulkey. His Flying Machine, the "Los Angeles," Will
Start October First.
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 9, 1902. p.
A1 (1 page)

    2.  3 MOON VOYAGERS ARE HAILED HERE IN HUGE TURNOUT; Borman, Lovell and
Anders Moved by the Outpouring on a Cold, Bleak Day A BLIZZARD OF CONFETTI
Hundreds of Thousands Line Streets to Cheer Crew -- City Medals Awarded Three Moon
Voyagers Are Hailed in a Huge Outpouring Along Lower Broadway RECEPTION MOVES
APOLLO CREWMEN Borman, Lovell and Anders Are Cheered by Hundreds of Thousands
on Bleak Day
By HOMER BIGART. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 11,
1969. p. 1 (2 pages)
Pg. 14, col. 2:  Then the acting head of the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, Dr. Thomas O. Paine, described the lunar voyage as "a message
of great hope for the nation."
   _"Dream No Small Dreams"_
   "We should dream no small dreams," he said.  "We should undertake those
enterprises which lift the soul."


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("small dreams" and "Reagan")
    1.  Other 2 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 21, 1981. p. A2 (1
page)
      _Quotation of the Day_
   "It is time for us to realize that we are too great a nation to limit
ourselves to small dreams.  We're not, as some would have us believe, doomed to an
inevitable decline.  I do not believe in a fate that will fall on us if we do
nothing."--President Reagan [B1:3]

    2.  Action Vowed On Economy; INAUGURATION '81 New President Pledges Swift
Action to Improve Economy
By Haynes Johnson Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post
(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 21, 1981. p. A1 (2 pages)

    3.  Hostage Release Opens Presidency on a Dramatic High Note
By Lee Lescaze Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post
(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 21, 1981. p. A31 (1 page)

    4.  U.S. 'Is Too Great for Small Dreams'; 'America's Best Days . . . Lie
Ahead'
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 26, 1984. p.
A16 (2 pages):
Col. 1:
   For a time, we forgot the American dream isn't one of making government
bigger; it's keeping faith with the mighty spirit of free people under God.
(...)
   On the international scene, we had an uncomfortable feeling that we had
lost the respect of friend and foe.  Some questioned whether we had the will to
defend peace and freedom.
   But America is too great for small dreams.  There was a hunger in the land
for a spiritual revival; if you will, a crusade for renewal.  The American
people said: let us look to the future with confidence, both at home and abroad.
 Let us give freedom a chance.


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Sat Jun 12 04:30:31 2004
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 23:30:31 -0500
Subject: Shandy-Lack revisited
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.233031.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sometimes, one wonders what parents are thinking when they name their
children.  When I was a cop in Illinois in the early 70s, we had a pair of
bank robbing brothers - Jesse James Dandridge and his brother Frank James
Dandridge and the front page of yesterday's local newspaper (Waynesville
Daily Guide) reports a Jesse James Donaldson arrested for forgery.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Thompson" <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>


You folks doubtless remember the discussion a year or so ago of the
Shandy-Lack Theory of Onomastic Determinism, a hypothesis that a person's
life is determined by his or her name, first proposed by Walter Shandy in
the 18th century novel Tristram Shandy, and confirmed by the research of
David Lack, a British ornithologist, who observed a striking number of
ornithologists (other than himself) whose name was the name of a bird or of
a part of a bird.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 12 05:17:07 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 01:17:07 EDT
Subject: Club Sandwiches (1894); "Club sandwiches, not seals" (1996)
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.011707.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CLUB SANDWICHES, NOT SEALS
  
CLUB SANDWICHES NOT--332 Google hits, 82 Google Groups hits
    
   Paris Hilton has been wearing this slogan recently.
   We're hitting the bottom with our food phrases, folks.
 
     
(GOOGLE)
Paris Hilton is Suddenly Against Clubbing; The Simple Life Star ...
... Paris Hilton is Suddenly Against Clubbing; The Simple Life Star Prefers 
to 'Club
Sandwiches, Not Seals' Wednesday, 21 January 2004 @ 23:03:11 EST. Funny ... 
www.hypocrites.com/article16530.html - 23k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
CNEWS World - Paris Hilton joins seal hunt protest
... At this month's Sundance Film Festival, Paris Hilton posed in an 
anti-hunt sweatshirt
-- "Club Sandwiches, Not Seals" -- and signed a protest letter to the ... 
cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2004/01/29/329063-ap.html - 30k - Cached - Similar 
pages 
  
Vogue Stories
American Idol finalist Fantasia Barrino in her "Club Sandwiches, Not
Seals" T-shirt © WireImage. SEAL OF DISAPPROVAL. AMERICAN IDOL ... 
www.vogue.co.uk/vogue_daily/story/story.asp?stid=17752 - 21k - Cached - 
Similar pages 

  
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Clubbing was Living with ceri was Who should die?
Club sandwiches not seals. ROFLMAO!!!! I want one...I want one!! ceri
~who glanced at the clock and is late for work...opps! Wonder ... 
alt.books.poppy-z-brite - Jan 31, 1997 by Just ceri - View Thread (1 article)
  
Re: Living with ceri was Who should die?
... i thought you were seeking help about that.... That reminds me of 
something....
Today I saw a guy wearing a shirt that said Club sandwiches not seals. ... 
alt.books.poppy-z-brite - Jan 30, 1997 by Ephebe - View Thread (14 articles)
  
Re: Physical Memory Addresses
... DPMI) interface call. -- Neil Jarvis, Proteon International R&D, York,
UK. (Neil.Jarvis at proteon.com) -- Club sandwiches, not seals! 
comp.os.msdos.djgpp - Sep 18, 1996 by Neil Jarvis - View Thread (9 articles)
  
Re: Orphaned Response - (nf)
#R:dartvax:-61900:inmet:6400085:177600:30 inmet!andrew
Jan 22 19:03:00 1984 Club sandwiches, not wombats! 
net.misc - Jan 24, 1984 by andrew at inmet.UUCP - View Thread (26 articles)
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CLUB SANDWICHES
  
   Here's a "club sandwich"--not "clubhouse sandwich"--in 1894.
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 Bucks County Gazette   Thursday, December 27, 1894 Bristol, Pennsylvania   
...sales of home manufactures and less CLUB SANDWICHES, These are very for..
Pg. 2, col. 3:
   Club Sandwiches.--These are very tasty for after-theatre suppers, and are 
made of very thin white bread and butter, with the cold white meat of chicken, 
salted and peppered and laid on a leaf of lettuce, between the bread.  Again, 
chopped green peppers or capers may be sprinkled over the chicken when the 
lettuce is omitted.
    
   Trenton Evening Times    Monday, April 26, 1897 Trenton, New Jersey      
...refreshments could not be served with CLUB SANDWICHES. It seems that the 
board.....thanks to th Fin, For add Feather CLUB, who har gent quite a number 
of..
    
   Woodland Daily Democrat  Thursday, May 18, 1893 Woodland, California     
...1 of Cosmos CLUB salad, Bohemian CLUB SANDWICHES, chicken SANDWICHES..   


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Jun 12 06:17:54 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 02:17:54 -0400
Subject: Antedating "Bring home the bacon"-1906/1907
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.021754.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED cites PG Wodehouse in 1924.  HDAS cites 1909 T.A. Dorgan. 

The phrase seems to have been popularized, if not invented, by the mother of African-American boxer Joe Gans.  Gans, lightweight champion of Baltimore, MD. fought "Battling" Nelson in Sept. of 1906 in Goldfield, NV.  Before the fight, telegrams were read aloud to the fighters and others.

One of the telegrams was from Gans' mother and said "Joe, the eyes of the world are on you.  Everybody says you ought to win.  Peter Jackson will tell me the news and you bring back the bacon."  (3 Sept. 1906 _Reno Evening Gazette_  1/6) .  Gans won the fight in 42 rounds.  

On Jan.1, 1907 Gans again fought in Nevada, this time KOing Kid Herman in 8 rounds.  In The New York Times for 1 Jan, 1907, pg 10 there appeared this snippet:

<<Baltimore, MD., Dec. 31.--A Christmas present in the shape of a check for $6,000 from her son, "Joe" Gans, the pugilist, was the agreeable surprise of Mrs. Gans to-day.  Accompanying the check was a letter of well wishes.  To-night Mrs. Gans sent her son this telegram in Tonopah, Nev.:
  "Thanks; keep stepping, Joe."
   When Gans fought Nelson at Goldfield, Mrs. Gans told him by wire to "bring home the bacon,:" and when the victory had been won "Joe" told his mother by wire that he had not only the bacon, but the gravy.>>

In the 2 Jan. 1907 Washington Post  8/5 there appear "Short Fight Notes" with a dateline of Jan 1,  one of which is

<<Much merriment was created by the announcer stating that Gans' mother sent him a telegram requesting him "to bring home the bacon."  Before he had a chance to read a telegram some one in the crowd yelled:  "Does it say, 'Bring home the Matzos?' " >>

During the course of the rest of 1907 the phrase "bring home the bacon" appeared in tens of news stories, always on the sports pages, but used in baseball, boxing, horse racing, football and rugby.

One assumes that if there were truth to the theory about catching greased pigs at fairs,  the phrase might have turned up once or twice in use before 1906/7.

Sam Clements


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 12 10:52:40 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 06:52:40 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Safire and OED on "Slam Dunk"
In-Reply-To: <001f01c45044$ffe0b050$0724a618@sam>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.065240.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In tomorrow's "On Language" column in the N.Y. Times, William Safire cites
the OED's 1976 first use for the term "slam dunk."  Here's earlier from
Newspaperarchive:

1971 _Kennebec Journal_ 14 Jan. 12  West's 20-foot jumper, only his second
field goal of the game, and Alcindor's slam dunk over Baltimore's West
Unself gave the West a 102-101 lead with 3 1 2 minutes to go.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From preston at MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 12 11:31:36 2004
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 07:31:36 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Safire and OED on "Slam Dunk"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0406120648500.21015-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.073136.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Could "West Unself" be "Wes Unseld" in disguise?

dInIs



>In tomorrow's "On Language" column in the N.Y. Times, William Safire cites
>the OED's 1976 first use for the term "slam dunk."  Here's earlier from
>Newspaperarchive:
>
>1971 _Kennebec Journal_ 14 Jan. 12  West's 20-foot jumper, only his second
>field goal of the game, and Alcindor's slam dunk over Baltimore's West
>Unself gave the West a 102-101 lead with 3 1 2 minutes to go.
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
>Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
>Yale Law School                             forthcoming
>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 12 11:36:09 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 07:36:09 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Safire and OED on "Slam Dunk"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0406120648500.21015-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.073609.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Fred Shapiro wrote:

> Unself gave the West a 102-101 lead with 3 1 2 minutes to go.

I meant, of course, to type "Unseld."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From preston at MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 12 12:41:11 2004
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 08:41:11 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Safire and OED on "Slam Dunk"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0406120735280.24196-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.084111.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>And 'Wes' too I presume?




>On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>
>>  Unself gave the West a 102-101 lead with 3 1 2 minutes to go.
>
>I meant, of course, to type "Unseld."
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
>Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
>Yale Law School                             forthcoming
>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 12 13:38:53 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 09:38:53 EDT
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.093853.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:45:15 -0500,    Gerald Cohen
<gcohen at UMR.EDU> asks:

>  A colleague has asked me about the meaning of "A high tuck-a-haw" in
>  the lyrics of the song "Turkey in the Straw."  Would anyone know?
>  The relevant verse is:
>
>          Turkey in the straw,
>          Turkey in the straw,
>          Roll 'em up and twist 'em up
>          A high tuck a-haw
>          And hit 'em up a tune called
>          Turkey in the Straw.
>
>  Also, what does "Roll 'em up and twist 'em up" refer to?

I vaguely recall the line as "And high tuck a-haw" which, if correct, means
that "tuck a-haw" might not be a noun phrase.  I suspect however that it is
simply a nonsence line added to create a rhyme for "straw".

Also I recall the first two lines as "Turkey in the straw/Turkey in the hay".
 Whether or not hay is involved, "roll 'em up etc." could refer to collecting
straws into whatever farmers of that age used to put straw into piles or
rolls or whatever.

          - Jim Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 12 13:41:40 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 09:41:40 EDT
Subject: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.094140.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated  Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:08:23 -0400,  Page Stephens
<hpst at EARTHLINK.NET> writes:
>
>  It is difficult to generalize about all of the different pronunciations in
>  British English dialects but one which intrigues me is the way that an
>  English friend and I differ in the consonants we do or do not pronounce.
>
>  He always pronounces the h in herbs

Does he also pronounce the "h" in "heirloom"?

           - Jim Landau


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 12 14:30:33 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:30:33 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Safire and OED on "Slam Dunk"
In-Reply-To: <a06020400bcf099e8fda9@[192.168.1.3]>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.103033.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> Could "West Unself" be "Wes Unseld" in disguise?

The original said "West Unseld," actually.  I'm not sure where the "t" in
"West" came from.

Fred


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 12 18:17:09 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:17:09 EDT
Subject: Slam Dunk (Safire said 1976?); OT: David Shulman,
 NYPL to get my home
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.141709.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In tomorrow's "On Language" column in the N.Y. Times, William Safire cites 
the OED's 1976 first use for the term "slam dunk."  Here's earlier from 
Newspaperarchive:
  
1971 _Kennebec Journal_ 14 Jan. 12  West's 20-foot jumper, only his second 
field goal of the game, and Alcindor's slam dunk over Baltimore's West Unself 
gave the West a 102-101 lead with 3 1 2 minutes to go.
  
Fred Shapiro
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------    
   No one remembers what I'd posted on ADS-L?  No one?  
   I had planned to re-check "slam dunk" and "point guard" and a few other 
terms when the LOS ANGELES TIMES digitization (now at March 1964) advances to 
this time period.
   It's the NEW YORK TIMES and it's Safire and I'm banned from correcting him 
every week, so that's how it goes.  Yeesh, what a life.
   On 6 August 2002, I posted this (ADS-L archives):
  
The Associated PressMonday, August 5, 2002; 10:22 PM LOS ANGELES –– 
Play-by-play announcer Chick Hearn, who made phrases like "slam dunk" and "air 
ball" common basketball expressions during his 42-year career with the Los 
Angeles Lakers, died Monday. He was 85."Chick Hearn passed away at 6:30 this 
evening," Los Angeles Lakers spokesman Bob Steiner told a hushed news conference 
outside Northridge Medical Center Hospital, where Hearn was taken Friday night 
after suffering a fall.Hearn fell Friday in the back yard of the Encino home he 
shared with wife, Marge. The two would have celebrated their 64th wedding 
anniversary on Aug. 13.Surgeons operated twice on Saturday to relieve swelling in 
his brain, but he never regained consciousness.Whether Hearn was the most 
famous Laker of them all can be debated, but his career with the team was far 
longer than such standouts as Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic 
Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Jamaal Wilkes, James Worthy and Michael Cooper.And 
he was calling games long before current stars Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe 
Bryant were born.Hearn called a record 3,338 consecutive Lakers games starting in 
1965 before missing one because he had to have an operation in December 2001 
for a blocked aortic valve.While recovering, he fell and broke his hip.Hearn 
returned to work April 9 and broadcast the Lakers' playoff run to their third 
consecutive NBA championship.He called his first Lakers game in March 1961. His 
last game was June 12 when the Lakers beat the New Jersey Nets 113-107 in East 
Rutherford, N.J., to complete a sweep of the NBA Finals and earn their ninth 
title since moving from Minneapolis in 1960.During the finals, he told The 
Associated Press he was getting stronger every day and planned to work at least 
one more season. And he said he believed his call of the Lakers' Game 7 victory 
over Sacramento in the Western Conference finals might have been as good as 
any in his career.As recently as last week, he drove to Las Vegas with his wife 
to speak at a fantasy basketball camp.Born Francis Dayle Hearn on Nov. 27, 
1916, in Aurora, Ill., Hearn peppered his rapid-fire delivery with terms like 
"no harm, no foul," "the mustard's off the hot dog," "ticky-tack foul," and 
"faked him into the popcorn machine."Whenever he believed a Lakers victory was 
clinched, Hearn would say: "You can put this onein the refrigerator. The door's 
closed, the light's out, the eggs are cooling, the butter's getting hard and 
the Jell-O is jiggling."
    
  
    A few weeks later in August 2002, I'd posted this:
  
  
AIR BALL
   28 March 1976, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 165:
   "One time I even shot an air ball; that's how slippery the ball was."
(There is also a 1975 basketball hit, but I couldn't spot the "air ball" in 
it in my quick reading.  The first hit here and the next one in 1977 come from 
college basketball, not the Los Angeles Lakers--ed.)
 
SLAM DUNK
   7 December 1972, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 108 ad for SPORTS ILLUSTRATED:
   "...Julius Erving, he of the reverse slam dunks."(That's how I remember 
it.  Julius Erving, of the ABA Virginia Squires    
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
OT: DAVID SHULMAN, NYPL TO GET MY HOME
  
DAVID SHULMAN--He had trouble breathing and he just entered the hospital 
again.  This is what I do when I'm not doing parking tickets.  It's a wonderful 
life.
  
NYPL TO GET MY HOME--For only the past ten years or so, I've been trying to 
get the NYPL's Research Library to correct an outdated web page on "the Big 
Apple," and the Chicago Public Library to correct an outdated web page on "the 
Windy City."  In a normal world, these corrections would be done in five 
minutes.  In the real world, you beg for ten years and no one listens to you.
   When I "Big Apple Corner" was made law in 1997 and both of my parents died 
that year, I approached the NYPL twice to donate money and to correct the web 
site on "the Big Apple," adding the historic materials at last to the web, 
where people can see them.  No one responded.  Last month, I received a form 
response--after seven years--that the NYPL just "couldn't do it."  Even for free? 
 Yes, they can't do it even if it would cost the NYPL nothing.  There was 
still no response on correcting its outdated web page, which had just fooled 
Google Answers.
   I asked the NYPL to take my home, forcing me to leave New York and 
formally ending the 12-year "torture a scholar" program.  There are only two 
requirements: (1) That the NYPL never honor me or the memory of my mother or father, 
and (2) that the NYPL never acknowledge any of my work, on "the Big Apple" or 
anything else.
   Yesterday, I got a response from an NYPL ("the People's University") 
attorney.
   The NYPL will agree to take my home.


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Jun 12 22:59:29 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 18:59:29 -0400
Subject: antedating of "quarter horse" 1828
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.185929.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

M-W has 1834, OED 1839

12 August, 1828.  2/4

<<At the mention of the certificate, the Doctor, in a hurried tone of voice, said, "I'll have nothing to do with it," & broke ground like a quarter horse, hallooing murder!>>

Sam Clements


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Jun 12 23:07:22 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 19:07:22 -0400
Subject: antedating of "quarter horse" 1828
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.190722.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What is the bibliographic information.  Or, did I miss it?


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun 13 00:04:22 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 20:04:22 -0400
Subject: antedating of "quarter horse" 1828
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.200422.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No, I missed it.

It was from the (Wilmington) _DelawarePatriot and American Watchman_.

Sorry about that.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Barnhart" <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: antedating of "quarter horse" 1828


> What is the bibliographic information.  Or, did I miss it?
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Jun 13 02:16:59 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 21:16:59 -0500
Subject: Barry Popik, NYPL, "The Big Apple"
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.211659.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    I'm troubled by Barry's message today about his frustrations in
dealing with the NYPL concerning its website's treatment of The Big
Apple. Barry is one of the most extraordinary lexical researchers
ever. He has already made important contributions to "The Big Apple",
"Windy City", "hot dog", "dude", the "show-me" expression, "yegg"
hashhouse lingo, etc. I count 76 items of his in my informal
bibliography of Comments on Etymology, and that's without the past
academic-year's issues.

    He is probably the world's foremost expert on food terminology.
His ads-l messages waiting to be developed into articles is
staggering. I co-authored the latest volume of _Studies in Slang_
with him. I'm currently preparing a book on "hot dog" which will
include much of the information he has sent me about it and which
will include him and David Shulman as authors. Next summer (2005), if
all goes according to plan, I'll prepare a 2nd edition of my "Big
Apple" monograph and have Barry listed as co-author; the new material
he discovered (which I have already published in article form with
due credit) is extraordinary and nails down John J. Fitz Gerald's
role in popularizing "the big apple" (NYC racetracks; later NYC as a
whole). The NY Historical Society is already persuaded by Barry's
work (I was able to communicate directly with a staff member there).

    Barry was the subject of a wonderful article in the Wall Street
Journal a few years ago. Gersh Kuntzman (NY Post) has written several
articles about him.
Several years ago I sent Dear Abby a letter about the origin of "The Big Apple"
(a reader had inquired about this), and I gave credit to Barry for
his work on this topic. The letter was published.

    William Safire has twice mentioned Barry in his widely read "On
Language" column, and I now thank Mr. Safire and his assistants for
providing Barry
with the favorable publicity that such mentions bring.

     So what has happened now? A few people in charge of the NYPL
research website decide to ignore Barry's messages about "The Big
Apple." Ditto for Chicago and "The Windy City." B-I-I-IG DEAL! For
this Barry's going to develop an ulcer and  somehow talk himself into
giving his apartment away? Barry, you have the respect of all who
count in this line of research--the academic and independent
scholars, the lexicographers, and the other ads-l members who have
ten times more appreciation for outstanding lexical research than the
NYPL website people will ever have.

     In any case, once the 2nd edition of "The Big Apple" book
appears, I'll make a determined effort to publicize it, and my guess
is that both the NYPL and Google people will be persuaded. Your "big
apple" research is in article form, and when it's incorporated into a
book, it can be drawn to public attention on the Internet more
effectively. This will all happen in the fullness of time. As the
Germans say, Geduld bringt Rosen.

Best. --- Jerry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 13 04:17:06 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 00:17:06 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Safire and OED on "Slam Dunk"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0406121029210.6183-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.001706.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:30 AM -0400 6/12/04, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>>  Could "West Unself" be "Wes Unseld" in disguise?
>
>The original said "West Unseld," actually.  I'm not sure where the "t" in
>"West" came from.
>
>Fred
>
It came via assimilation from the res(t) of the sentence:

==============
1971 _Kennebec Journal_ 14 Jan. 12  West's 20-foot jumper, only his second
field goal of the game, and Alcindor's slam dunk over Baltimore's West Unself
gave the West a 102-101 lead with 3 1 2 minutes to go.
==============
The context appears to have been the annual NBA all-star game between
the West(ern Conference), including Jerry West of the L.A. Lakers and
Lew Alcindor (of the Milwaukee Bucks at the time, later Kareem Abdul
Jabbar of the Lakers), and the East(ern Conference), including Wes
Unseld of the Washington Bullets.   The Kennebec Journal just
assimilated poor Wes Unseld to all those  Wests.

Larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 13 05:44:26 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 01:44:26 -0400
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
In-Reply-To: <p04310101bcefd8048084@[131.151.65.21]>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.014426.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

AA colleague has asked me about the meaning of "A high tuck-a-haw" in
>the lyrics of the song "Turkey in the Straw."  Would anyone know?

Not me, but I can speculate. I believe it is nonsense, either simply a
nonsense syllable-string or a nonsense use of a variant of the word "tuckahoe".

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 13 05:58:05 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 01:58:05 -0400
Subject: Tonkatsu (1963); Kobe & Matsuzaka beef, Genghis Khan BBQ (1962)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.015805.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TONKATSU--9,790 Google hits, 1,120 Google Groups hits
NOREN + JAPANESE--6,030 Google hits, 292 Google Groups hits
("Tonkatsu" is not in the OED.  "Noren" didn't make even the revised OED.)


  I found a little gem of a book from 1962 here at the NYU Bobst Library.  I thought I saw "tonkatsu," but I'm running out of time for this library's 2 a.m. closing.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)("tonkatsu")
   1. Chinese Food a Specialty
By Isao Kadota. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: May 26, 1963. p. K23 (1 page):
   Apart from _raisukare_, the most typical Japanized foreign dish is probably _tonkatsu_--which could be described on the menu of a pretentious restaurant as "Pork Cutlet a la Japonaise" and which is popular among foreigners visiting Japan.  The word _ton_ means pork, while _katsu_ is an abbreviation of cutlet.  But the _tonkatsu_ is a very Japanese form of pork cutlet.
   Most _tonkatsu_ restaurants have a typically Japanese appearance (unlike those serving genuinely foreign food, which try to look as un-Japanese as possible).  Quite a few of them hang _noren_--the slit curtain hung over the doorways of Japanese restaurants--at their entrances.
   Tenderloin of pork is used for _tonkatsu_ and is normally sliced very thick.  The sinews are removed, the meat is sprinkled with salt and pepper, dipped into a batter of flour and beaten egg and then covered with bread crumbs.  The final stage is to deep-fry it in vegetable oil.  WHen eating _tonkatsu_, most Japanese flavor it with Japanese Worcestershire sauce (sweeter than the Western variety), gravy sauce, or Japanese soy sauce.  Usually, it is accompanied with finely-sliced cabbage.  It is fascinating to watch an expert cook slice the cabbage with amazing skill and speed.

   2. A Japanese Version of Swiss Fondue Is Okonomiyaki, or What--You--Will
By CRAIG CLAIBORNE Special to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 17, 1966. p. 45 (1 page)



OLSON'S ORIENT GUIDE
by Harvey S. Olsen
Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott Company
1962

Pg. 227 (-330):  CHAPTER 5  _On Dining Out in the Orient_

Pg. 230:  By nature I am a gourmet and relish every conceivable type of food from the simplest hot dog and humblest hamburger to glamorous _duck a l'orange_, _Fettuccine Alfredo_, _crepes Grand Vefour_, _sole Belle Meuniere_, Hungarian beef goulash, veal stroganoff, smorgasbord _a la Viking_, _Kobe and Matsuzaka beef_, tempura, sukiyaki, and the appetite-arousing Chinese specialties, particularly the Cantonese variety.

Pg. 231 (HAWAII, Royal Hawaiian Hotel Monarch Room):  Every night except Sunday and Monday, the famous _Kamaaina_ dinner is served, which is a six-course repast featuring green turtle soup, breast of _Kahunakaku chicken_, _Liliuokalani salad_, pineapple delight, and other native specialties.

Pg. 232 (HAWAII, Canlis' Charcoal Broiler):  The "original" _Canlis'_ Idaho baked potato served with gobs of butter, parmesan cheese, green onions, and minced bacon is extraordinarily good.

Pg. 234 (HAWAII, "The Luau"):  Other components usually included are _lomi lomi_ salmon, hand massaged local fish mixed with fresh tomatoes and onions, the _moa_, _chicken luau_, mixed with (Pg. 235--ed.) Hawaiian spinach and/or taro tops, and coconut cream served in fresh coconuts. (...)  The _limu_, dried seaweed, is a seasoning.  To all of this you add the _halakahika_, the luau-style pineapple, the baked bananas (_plantains_), banana muffins, and coconut cake.  These are all generously laced with Polynesian rum punch.

Pg. 236 (HONG KONG):  CANTONESE...PEKING (_Peiping_ or _Northern_)...

Pg. 237 (HONG KONG):  SZECHUAN...SHANGHAI...

Pg. 238 (HONG KONG): ..._Shanghai_ style--the so-called _"Beggar's Chicken"_--to name but a few.

Pg. 241 (HONG KONG, Princess Garden Restaurant):  The local CHinese wine, _shiao shing_, will remind you of _sake_, which the Chinese claim is a derivative of their own.

Pg. 245 (JAPAN, "Japanese Specialties"):  SUKIYAKI...

Pg. 246 (JAPAN):  TEMPURA...

Pg. 247 (JAPAN):  KOBE AN MATSUZAKA BEEF.  The Japanese are extraordinarily proud of these two succulent, tender beef specialties of the country which are reputed to be the finest meats in all the world.  Certainly one would have to travel far and wide to find anything more superlative.  There are several unusual qualities to these two types of beef, the first of which is that with labor being so peuriously inexpensive, carefully trained men can, and do, work amazingly tedious hours at massaging the beef cows twice a day in such a way as to inhibit hard muscles from forming.  In this manner, plus the fact that they are also kept in pens to keep them from getting muscular, the meat is kept tender even while on the hoof.  The second feature is that the cows are slaughtered prior to having wasted any of their strength on reproductive activities.  Last, but not least, the cows are fed great quantities of beer daily except Saturdays and Sundays.  Most unusual.  But the results are taste titillating.
(Again, the OED does not have "Kobe" and the revised OED does not have "Matsuzaka."  Awful--ed.)
   MAMMOTH JAPANESE STRAWBERRIES.

Pg. 248 (JAPAN):  YAKITORI RESTAURANTS.

Pg. 249 (JAPAN):  Remember this: _Nagoya chicken_ is to the bird what _Kobe beef_ is to the cow.
   BATAYAKI is a first cousin to sukiyaki, the only notable exception being that _batayaki_ is prepared in a sauce less pungent than that used for sukiyaki.  The _batayaki_ variety is also of a soybean base but mixed liberally with butter; hence the name _"bata,"_ the Japanese pronunciation of our "butter."  The Japanese prefer grated radishes as a base for eating _batayaki_.  (...)
   OKARIBAYAKI is less well known but typically Japanese.  It is comprised of finely sliced wild game and adorned with chrysanthemum leaves, sprouts, and vegetables, all prepared in a special _okaribayaki_ grill.  (...)  This latter serves a bubbling hot, utterly delectable hunter's dish, the _kamonabe_: duck chunks and vegetables served together with hot noodles in a marvelous and piquant sauce.
   SUSHI RESTAURANTS.

Pg. 250 (JAPAN):  KABAYAKI RESTAURANTS.  (...)  TORI NO MIZUTAKI RESTAURANTS.

Pg. 255 (JAPAN):  TOKYO COFFEE BARS.

Pg. 257 (JAPAN):  When the _jochu-san_ (Japanese kimono'd waitress) ties your husband's shoe laces upon your departure, he'll be spoiled for life.

Pg. 260 (JAPAN, Chinzanso, Avenue M near 15th):  The specialty of the house is Genghis Khan barbecued beef and chicken which consists of grilled meats and fowl, and vegetables served for four or more persons who are seated at the table around a brazier.

Pg. 268: (JAPAN, OSAKA, Alaska):  Kobe sirloin steak from beer-fed, hand-massaged beef.

Pg. 268 (JAPAN, OSAKA, Hotel Osaka Grand):  The _Maple Room_, second floor, features Japanese food exclusively including tempura, sukiyaki, _kabayaki_, and the "house specialties," the _teishoku_ (full "menu of the day") dinners.

Pg. 274 (TAIWAN):  The MONGOLIAN BARBECUE, a colorful Chinese concoction from the Northlands, offers a generous feast, prepared with great flourish, and known, alternatively, as a Genghis Khan barbecue.  The Mongolian barbecue brazier is more vigorous than the regular charcoal grill, shooting its searing flames skyward in a brillian display.  The groaning hors d'oeuvres tables are generously decorated with platters of spicy, marinated raw beef, venison, wild boar, mutton, and heaping mounds of green uncooked vegetables.  The diner makes his choice of the uncooked victuals, selects his all-important sauces and seasoning, and passes to the end of the table where he hands his choices to a clever chef presiding over the charcoal-filled broilers.  The seething flames, the sizzling meats, and the spitting oils present an unusual sensory experience.  When cooked, the Mongolian feast is something extraspecial for your chopsticks.  As when coping with Swedish smorgasbord, you are expected to go back to the Mongolian grill again and again.  Try rice wine with the Mongolian barbecue.  It is taste stimulating and, while it seems weak, has a high degree of potency.
   The CANTONESE BREAKFAST is delicious, consisting of hot or cold Cantonese pork sausage, steamed dumplings filled with mincemeat, ground pork or beef, steamed gingerbread, watermelon, and sometimes a clear chicken soup or broth, and always tea...tea...tea.
   Do-it-yourself gourmets will automatically approve and swear by the SHANSI RESTAURANT on Chung Cheng Road, where the feast is _Huo Kuo_, a chafing dish, which literally means "Hot Pot."  The meal begins with a variety of "appetizers" including cold pickles, fish, and fried shredded chicken with slivers of cold boiled ham, chicken, and beef with sliced cucumbers, which are meant to whet the appetite.
  Each guest for the "Fiery Pot" is next given his own bowl for mixing the dipping sauce to his own taste.  In it will go a  (Pg. 275--ed.) choice of raww egg, bean paste, vinegar, ginger juice, sesame seed, soy sauce, shrimp oil, hot sauce, and/or onions.  Any and all of the foregoing are combined to create a tangy dressing for the meats, a portion of which is cooked with the meal and part of which is used, uncooked, as a condiment.  The "Fiery pot," placed in the middle of the table over the glowing charcoal coals, exudes an aromatic, appetite stimulating aroma from the cooking beef, pork, lamb, and sometimes game, such as venison, when in season.
   The GIRLIE RESTAURANT is a unique specialty of _Taiwan_.

Pg. 277 (TAIWAN):  WINE RESTAURANTS.

Pg. 278 (THAILAND):  Thai rice is served fried, boiled, in (Pg. 279--ed.) soup, as a stuffing, and frequently as a hot side dish with green onion shavings, sliced cucumbers, soy sauce, and grated chili peppers.  In savoring a full dinner, a Thai family normally will start with soup and will then have fish, vegetables, and a good selection of meat curries, consumed with rice.  A favorite Thai soup prepared on a charcoal brazier is _Gang Tom Yam_ which includes leaves of the makroot, lemon grass, watercress, prawns, chicken, fish, and _pri-kee-noo_ peppers.
   _Haw Mok_, a flaming hot Thai specialty, is made by pounding dry chili peppers, shrimp paste, lemon grass, onions, garlic and salt, and blending them with steamed coconut milk and soy sauce decorated with egg and slices of raw fish.  It is served in a large banana leaf.
   The hot Thai curry _Gang Pet_ includes beef, pork, shellfish, coconut milk, chili peppers, ginger, caraway seeds, the paste of lemon grass, garlic, mashed shrimps, lots of pepper, and wild rice.  The Thais are particularly fond of their desserts, particularly concoctions of sweets made from milk, sugar, coconut, and rice.  Favorite Thai dishes to top off a meal are: _Salim_, made of thin strips of egg noodles in sugary coconut milk, and _Songakaya_, a cocnut milk pudding, served both hot and cold, made from both the whites and yolks of eggs, palm sugar, sticky rice, mangoes, and other fresh fruit.

Pg. 293 (TOKYO restaurants, Akahane):  ...that grand Japanese specialty, the _yama dori_ (mountain chicken).

GOTTA GO!--ed.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 13 09:04:29 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 05:04:29 EDT
Subject: Ton-katsu, Pulgogi, Meehoon (1962)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.050429.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BULGOGI + KOREAN--6,340 Google hits, 1.060 Google Groups hits
PULGOGI + KOREAN--738 Google hits, 68 Google Groups hits
MEEHOON--8,340 Google hits, 57 Google Groups hits
MEE HOON--11,700 Google hits, 932 Google Groups hits
(Neither "Bulgogi" nor "Pulgogi" is in OED.  Neither "Meehoon" nor "Mee Hoon"
is in the revised OED.)

   I ran out of time at 2 a.m. and the NYU computers automatically shut off,
but I quickly photocopied a few of the remaining pages of the book.
"Tonkatsu" and "pulgogi" and "meehoon" were there.
   Just a great book find.


OLSON'S ORIENT GUIDE
by Harvey S. Olsen
Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott Company
1962

Pg. 300 (JAPAN, TOKYO, Seiko-en):  Korean food at its very best.  Try
_pulgogi_, the Korean barbecue of beef strips, cooked in ginger-soy-_sake_ sauce.

Pg. 302 (JAPAN, TOKYO, Zakuro):  Beef at its best in sukiyaki and many
Japanese _teishoku_ (table specialties) such as _sashimi_ (raw fish), _domburi_
(bowlfuls of rice mixed with eggs, chicken, vegetables, seafood, and eels),
_ton-katsu_ (Japanese style pork cutlets), _suimono_ (clear soups), _miso-shiru_
(bean-paste soup) and _momo yaki_ (charcoal broiled chicken thighs).

Pg. 314 (MACAO):  POUSADA DE MACAO.  The specialty of the chef is an aromatic
concoction known as _Chicken Africana_.  This is tender barbecued chicken
served with a mysterious sauce of limitless ingredients and accompanied by crusty
hot rolls called "_casquieros_"--all of which makes for a delicious meal.

Pg. 314:  _FEDERATION OF MALAYA_
(...)  Typical native dishes are:
   CHICKEN IN THE COCONUT, a thick, spiced soup uniquely served in the same
coconut in which the chopped chicken has been brewed for seemingly endless
hours.
   FISH and CHICKEN cooked with sweet or sour sauce similar to, but different
from, the normal Chinese variety.
   MAHMEE or MEEHOON, a Chinese style Malay spaghetti.

Pg. 315:
   NASI BERIANI, an Indian dish of chicken or mutton with a base of tumeric
rice.
   SAMBALS is the collective name for the half dozen or more side dishes
served with a Malayan meal.
   SATAY, comprised of a variety of meats and chicken grilled over charcoal
on bamboo sticks, served with chili-peanut sauce, eaten directly off the skewer
either at a _Satay_ stall or restaurant.
   STUFFED LOBSTER.  Super-duper.
       Fruits:
   LANGSAT, sour-sweet and juicy.
   MANGOSTEEN, which is delectable, watermelon, papayas, and bananas.
   RAMBUTAN, which is sweet.

Pg. 316 (PHILIPPINES):
   ADOBO, an agglomeration of chicken and pork, might be worth trying.
   ALEMANGO, a "fruit of the sea," is a delicate stewed crab.
   BAKERY SPECIALTIES are mouth-watering and unusual.  They include: PAN DE
SAL, which comes in tiny, delicately crusted, salted loaves; CUCHINTA and PUTO,
two types of tasty, sweet, steamed rice bread; and ENSAIMADAS, a Filipino
(Pg. 317--ed.) version of sweet roll, garnished with Spanish sausage (_chorizo_)
and/or grated cheese.
   BALUT has to be seen , or eaten, to be believed.  It is hot _boiled duck's
egg_ served complete (ugh) with embryo.  Usually sold in the markets and on
the streets,  "_Balut sa puti_" means the embryo will be immature and (almost)
palatable.  I personally believe this is a dish strictly for the natives.
   Tree-ripened, sun-drenched FRUIT is available in profusion, including
pineapples, cantaloupes, coconuts, bananas, star apples, mangoes, calimancis,
papayas and watermelons.
   LECHON is as native to The Philippines as hamburger is to us.  It is
universally served on all festive occasions.  This drawn baby pig is stuffed with
tamarind leaves of papaya, roasted over red-hot coals, and served with a choice
of tangy sauces (spicy liver sauce is preferred by the natives).
   LUMPIA is delectable.  its ingredients consist of pork, vegetables,
shredded coconut pith, and shrimp enveloped in wafer-thin pancakes.  Served with its
own tasty sauce.
   MERIENDA is Filipino for afternoon tea, which can assume the proportions
of a buffet dinner.
   PANCIT (GUISADO) is composed of noodles garnished with pork, chicken, or
seafood.
   PANCIT (MALABON) is similar but with spices added--good and served most
everywhere.
   PANUT MOLO, a native soup of obscure origin, is wonderful.
   SALTED DUCK'S EGGS served piping hot are unusually good.  For eye appeal
they are painted red, and for taste they are grated and mized with onions,
lettuce, tomatoes, and chipped smoked dried fish.
   SINIGANG is an elaborate production of stew-like pork or fish.
   SUGPO, a dish of steamed shrimps, is one you'll fancy if you are a devotee
of seafood.
   TUBA is to the Filipinos what akvavit is to the Scandinavians, (Pg.
318--ed.) vodka to the Russians, and moonshine whisky to our own hillbillies.  Wow!
A drink of sledgehammer ferocity.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 13 10:52:35 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 06:52:35 EDT
Subject: Cabinet, Concrete, Frosted, Velvet; Pot Stickers; Pre Fix
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.065235.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CABINET, CONCRETE, FROSTED, VELVET

(ADS-L) (6 August 2001)
The earliest evidence we have is the following citation:

They're called
Frappes         Velvets
Frosted          Cabinets

[Text accompanying illustration on a poster advertising Hood's Ice
Cream (observed in Hancock Pharmacy, State and Hancock Sts.,
Springfield, Mass., Dpetember 30, 1952).]

Joanne Despres
Merriam-Webster


(ADS-L)
Item #25432 (2 Sep 2002 19:43) - Roadfood (2002) and food regionalisms
(LONG!)
Pg. 319 (Ted Drewes, St. Louis, MO): The best-known dish in the house is
called a concrete, which is a milk shake so thick that the server hands it
out the order window upside down, demonstrating that not a drop will drip


   I thought I'd take another look at cabinet/concrete/frosted/velvet, using
the new databases on these regional terms.


(FACTIVA) ("concrete" + "shakes")
Hometown ice creams a homemade delight
NANCY GORDON
780 words
6 July 1994
The Pantagraph Bloomington, IL
FINAL
D1
(...)
At the Double Nickel, owners Don and Nancy Geiselman of Bloomington, formerly
of El Paso, say their frozen custard is a "true '50s nostalgia product."

In the food and ice cream business for 25 years, the Geiselmans opened the
1950s-theme drive-in at the corner of Morrissey Drive and Veterans Parkway on
Bloomington's south side six years ago.

Besides serving Double Nickel burgers, lunches and dinners, the restaurant
makes its version of 1950s-style homemade ice cream fresh every day. Vanilla
flavor is always available. The "special" flavors, which change every two or
three days, include such embellishments as English Toffee, Chocolate Peanut Butter
Chocolate (Elvis' favorite), Caramel Cashew, Raspberry, Cherry Amaretto,
Mocha Chip, Bailey's Irish Cream Coffee and dozens of others.

The frozen custard is made in 3- or 4-gallon batches several times a day,
Geiselman said. A "custard forecast" is announced each month so patrons can be
sure to be on hand to enjoy their favorite flavors. A newsletter, the Double
Nickel Scoop, reminds patrons to call The Pantagraph's CITYLINE, 829-9000, ext.
5500, to discover the day's feature flavor.

The custard also is used in the restaurant's unique "Concrete Shakes," a
thick custard milk shake with added delights such as cookies and cream, peanut
butter, hot caramel and lots of other goodies.

Geiselman said the custard, a 10 percent butterfat product developed in the
Coney Island area in 1919, is a unique product - a smooth, rich,
nearly-like-homemade ice cream, for which sales have seen a steady growth every year.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   CITYSIDE with GENE SHERMAN
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 7, 1954. p. 2
(1 page):
   What do you call the soda-fountain drink made by dumping an order or ice
cream in a milk shake?  In different part of the country, it's called a
frosted, a frappe, a velvet and a cabinet.  Don't rightly know what it's called here,
as I am a malted milk man myself.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("frosted")
   Denton Journal  Friday, February 19, 1937 Denton, Maryland
...makes two medium-sized drinks.) For a "FROSTED" SHAKE, add a dash of
your.....the kids' vote goes to banana milk SHAKE, shown in Inset. "ALL that..
(Top of the page has February 19, 1938--ed.)
Pg. 2?, col. 4:  For a "frosted" shake, add a dash of your favorite ice
cream.

  Mansfield News  Monday, August 21, 1939 Mansfield, Ohio
...ICE. Add CREAM, sugar AND half the ICE CREAM. SHAKE or stir until coffee
AND.....when the menu forecast is tonight. A FROSTED beverage, in the
vernacular, is..
Pg. 7, col. 6:  A frosted beverage, in the vernacular, is something good to
which ice cream has been added.  Example par excellence is frosted coffee--that
hot, tasty beverage made chilly with ice and frosty with ice cream.

  Salisbury Times  Thursday, July 16, 1953 Salisbury, Maryland
...jar AND SHAKE well. For FROSTED SHAKE AND 4 large tablespoons ICE CREAM
SHAKE.....top with soda water. Spoon strawberry ICE CREAM in. Serve at once. For
a..
Pg. 18, col. 4:  For a frosted shake add 4 large tablespoons ice cream.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("cabinets")
   Newport Daily News   Monday, June 16, 1952 Newport, Rhode Island
...Here's Your Guide For Top Quality ICE CREAM SODAS CABINETS MILK SHAKES C
ANDIES.....Block 188 Bellevue Ave. LA FORGE ICE CREAM SHOP I Tel. 5685 GRADUATE
if U.
Pg. 3, col. 1 ad:
ICE CREAM
SODAS
CABINETS
MILK SHAKES
CANDIES
SANDWICHES
(...)
LA FORGE
ICE CREAM SHOP.

---------------------------------------------------------------
POT STICKERS (continued)

   I previously cited "pot stickers" from the book HOW TO COOK AND EAT IN
CHINESE.  There's a story about the book in Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE:


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/13/magazine/13FOOD.html?pagewanted=2
Not only have the book's basic recipes inspired the often more complicated
versions in later Chinese cookbooks, but several of his/her attempts to create
an equivalent culinary vocabulary in English, like stir-fry and pot stickers,
have become part of the culinary language. ''Wraplings,'' as a word for Chinese
ravioli, hasn't survived, but recently I found pot stickers -- ''wraplings
grilled on a griller'' -- on the menu of 66, a pretentious, fatally bland
Chinese restaurant in TriBeCa. The attempt to introduce ''ramblings'' for hun-t'un
(won ton), which ''differ from ordinary neat-edged wraplings by having fluffy
or rambling edges like the tails of a goldfish,'' didn't catch on, either, but
provides an opportunity for Professor Chao to add this footnote in his own
initials: ''The same spoken word, written differently, means in fact the nebulous
state of confusion when the world began,'' an elevated thought to accompany
your next bowl of won-ton soup.

''How to Cook and Eat in Chinese'' is no longer in print, and the Chaos may
no longer be with us. My copy is now brittle and all but unusable. Much of it
is out of date, especially the list of ingredients. Today leaf lard is hard to
find, but ginger is no longer esoteric, and bok choy and hoisin can be found
in supermarkets. But the recipes are still basic and true. They will not daunt
an everyday cook and may also inspire experts.

---------------------------------------------------------------
PRIX FIXE, PRE FIX, PRICE FIXED... (continued)

   I walked by Le Steak at Third Avenue and East 75th Street.  It's supposed
to be a French restaurant.
   It serves a "Pre Fix."


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun 13 14:12:29 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 10:12:29 -0400
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.101229.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Considering that the song magically appears in newspaper references and
advertisements around 1899-1900, and is billed as a ragtime/cake walk/negro
song, you might look to Black English.  Just a possibility.

Sam Clements
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Cohen" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 5:45 PM
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"


> A colleague has asked me about the meaning of "A high tuck-a-haw" in
> the lyrics of the song "Turkey in the Straw."  Would anyone know?
> The relevant verse is:
>
>         Turkey in the straw,
>         Turkey in the straw,
>         Roll 'em up and twist 'em up
>         A high tuck a-haw
>         And hit 'em up a tune called
>         Turkey in the Straw.
>
> Also, what does "Roll 'em up and twist 'em up" refer to?
>
> Gerald Cohen
>


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun 13 14:40:22 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 10:40:22 -0400
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.104022.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And you can safely ignore what I posted previously.  :(

The tune(and words) are from at least 1861, attributed to either Dan Emmett
or Dan Bryant, both members of a minstrel group.  So, it could still be from
Black English--or not.

Sam Clements
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <SClements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"


> Considering that the song magically appears in newspaper references and
> advertisements around 1899-1900, and is billed as a ragtime/cake
walk/negro
> song, you might look to Black English.  Just a possibility.
>
> Sam Clements
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gerald Cohen" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 5:45 PM
> Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
>
>
> > A colleague has asked me about the meaning of "A high tuck-a-haw" in
> > the lyrics of the song "Turkey in the Straw."  Would anyone know?
> > The relevant verse is:
> >
> >         Turkey in the straw,
> >         Turkey in the straw,
> >         Roll 'em up and twist 'em up
> >         A high tuck a-haw
> >         And hit 'em up a tune called
> >         Turkey in the Straw.
> >
> > Also, what does "Roll 'em up and twist 'em up" refer to?
> >
> > Gerald Cohen
> >
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 13 15:27:12 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 11:27:12 -0400
Subject: "Stealing lead pipe" (1887)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.112712.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

[Michael Quinion recently featured the odd expression "lead-pipe cinch" =
"sure thing". The earliest citations I can find date from 1890.]

Lead pipe was stolen a lot, apparently. Search of the on-line "Brooklyn
Daily Eagle" (1841-1902) gives the following numbers of instances:

<<stealing iron pipe>> ..... 0
<<stealing steel pipe>> .... 0
<<stealing copper pipe>> ... 2
<<stealing lead pipe>> .... 52
<<stealing pipe>> .......... 7 (of which 4 refer to lead pipe, 1 to copper
pipe, 2 to pipe of unspecified material)

 From N'archive:

----------

_Newark Daily Advocate_ (Newark OH), 5 Feb. 1887: p. 3(?), col. 1:

[referring to dubious or invented family arms painted on one's carriage:
browsing for a notional ancestor in Burke's]

<<HUNTING A PEDIGREE. / When he has made up his mind to it, this is as easy
as stealing lead pipe from a junk shop.>>

----------

At N'archive I find no other pre-1890 metaphor with "easy as stealing
[anything]" or "easy as taking [anything]".

-- Doug Wilson


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun 13 18:09:49 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 14:09:49 -0400
Subject: "lead pipe cinch" and plumbers 1893
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.140949.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Michael Quinion noted in his column
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-lea2.htm

that no connection between the plumbing trade/device for "cinching" pipe
together, etc had been found.

A story from the Dec. 13, 1893 Washington Post says that

"The master plumbers assembled for their annual feast last evening, and they
had a veritable lead pipe cinch.  Every plumber was in the best of humor, as
he had a right to be, for the winter is the harvest time.  Then the cold
grows strong and the pipe joints are weak."

No device here, but it does tenuously connect the plumbing biz with the
phrase, if only humorously.

SC


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Sun Jun 13 18:55:22 2004
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:55:22 +0100
Subject: "lead pipe cinch" and plumbers 1893
In-Reply-To: <001f01c45171$9e8a3af0$0724a618@sam>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.195522.0100.>

Sam Clements wrote:

> Michael Quinion noted in his column
> http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-lea2.htm
>
> that no connection between the plumbing trade/device for "cinching"
> pipe together, etc had been found.
>
> A story from the Dec. 13, 1893 Washington Post says that
>
> "The master plumbers assembled for their annual feast last evening,
> and they had a veritable lead pipe cinch.  Every plumber was in the
> best of humor, as he had a right to be, for the winter is the harvest
> time.  Then the cold grows strong and the pipe joints are weak."
>
> No device here, but it does tenuously connect the plumbing biz with
> the phrase, if only humorously.

This is interesting, if only to show that the expression was even by
then well enough known that it could be applied in this way. But I
would suggest that the humour in the association only arises if the
source of the expression hadn't been in plumbing to start with.

Several World Wide Words subscribers have asserted that there was a
device that acted like a wrench to hold lead pipe, but using a fabric
strap to avoid crushing or scratching the soft material (it was named
by one writer as a strap wrench) and that this was in fact the lead
pipe cinch of the expression. I found no examples of "pipe cinch"
(which might have resulted in the  compound "lead pipe-cinch" being
reanalysed as "lead-pipe cinch") or any citation that suggested a
link between plumbing and cinches.

If anyone can help to take this forward, it would be one fewer
etymological puzzle for subscribers to tax me with!

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 13 19:12:22 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:12:22 EDT
Subject: Lead Pipe(1890); Clover Club cocktail (1911); Pegu Club
 Cocktail(1934); OED days
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.151222.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OLSON--Sorry for the spelling of OLSON and OLSEN in a prior post.  It's OLSON 
for both title and author.
    
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
LEAD PIPE CINCH
      
   Here's the article:
  
  
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-lea2.htm
[Q] From Irving S Schloss: “What is the origin of lead-pipe cinch, which, in 
American slang, means a dead certainty?”
  
[A] Nobody seems quite sure. We’ve a lot of information about its early days 
but it doesn’t quite add up to a complete story. Facts first, then the 
speculation.The figurative sense of cinch is recorded from the 1880s on. This came 
from the saddle-girth meaning of the word, which itself had been borrowed from 
Spanish cincha in the 1860s. A saddle that had been tightly cinched was secure, 
so something that was a cinch was a safe or sure thing, an idea which 
developed into the slang sense of something that was a certainty.
  
Lead-pipe cinch suddenly appears in the early 1890s, only a few years after 
that sense of cinch had been created. The first mention I can find is in a 
parody of Sandford Bennett’s hymn In The Sweet By and By that appeared in the 
Chicago Tribune late in 1891: “Oh, the place will be delightful, and it’s worth 
our while to try / To get a lead pipe cinch upon the sweet by and by.”
  
It’s obvious enough that a lead-pipe cinch is one up on the common or garden 
variety of cinch, so that lead-pipe here is what grammarians call an 
intensifier. But why should it be so? This is where we part company with the facts and 
go drifting off on the wayward currents of surmise and supposition. Robert 
Chapman’s Dictionary of American Slang suggested it is because a lead pipe is 
easily bent, “in case one has bet on such a feat”. Eric Partridge thought it 
came about through the effectiveness of a length of lead pipe as a weapon. 
Jonathon Green argues it is the solidity of the lead pipe that is most important.
  
Unlike many modern urban folk, in the 1890s everyone who used the phrase knew 
exactly what a cinch was in its literal sense. So lead-pipe cinch had to 
resonate somehow with that. Jonathon Lighter, in the Random House Historical 
Dictionary of American Slang, points out that there was a brief flowering of 
another sense, that of having an especially firm grip on something. The idea was 
presumably that if a leather cinch was effective, one made of lead would be even 
more so, or that one’s grip on lead pipe could be firmer than on a leather 
strap.
  
Following the first appearance of this piece in the newsletter, several 
subscribers suggested that the piece of lead pipe might have been used to tighten a 
strap. Larry Krakauer described it like this: “We ‘cinch’, or ‘cinch up’, 
anything that is held tightly by a strap or rope. If you want to cinch 
something really tightly, you put something like a stick, or perhaps a piece of pipe, 
through the rope loop that goes around the object to be held, and you twist 
it. The length of pipe twisting the rope gives you enormous leverage. Lead pipe 
was a suitable size and was likely to be available.” This sounds possible, 
though essential evidence is lacking.
  
Many others sought an origin in the plumbing trade, on the basis that there 
might have been some device that held, or cinched, pieces of pipe together. It 
might have been a version of a device sometimes known as a strap wrench, which 
is used when the jaws of a standard monkey wrench would damage the item being 
worked on. It’s a plausible-sounding origin, but I’ve found nothing to 
suggest a link between the expression and the plumbing business.
  
Either way, this is the nearest we can get to understanding the thought 
processes of 1890s Americans. 

  
   I googled further and found that an earlier citation seems to have been 
found by someone named Barry Popik:
  
  
(GOOGLE)
Issue of November 27, 2001
... A few years ago etymologist Barry Popik uncovered the earliest use in 
print of
"lead-pipe cinch" yet found (in an 1890 issue of The Sporting News) in an ... 

www.word-detective.com/112701.html - 44k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
  
   THE SPORTING NEWS of that period is in terrible shape, and I spent many 
hours squinting my eyes going through years of it.  I couldn't find it again on 
www.paperofrecord.com, but I guarantee you that it's there.
   I'd copied it for Gerald Cohen many years ago.  I also posted it, if I 
recall correctly, on the old ADS-L archives (which are no longer available).
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
OED DAYS
  
   The June OED NEWS is out and features a day in the life of the OED.  One 
editor is looking at Newspaperarchive.  Another editor is looking at ECCO 
(Eighteenth Century Collections Online).  
   Sarah Oglivie, a senior assistant editor, is looking at Murray's slips for 
the words _oopack_, _ketchup_, _cha_, and _chopstick_.  About ketchup...
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
CLOVER CLUB COCKTAIL
  
   Another 1911 citation, from my files.
    
 
BEVERAGES DE LUXE
edited by Geo. R. Washburne and Stanley Bronner
Published by The Wine and Spirit Bulletin
Louisville
1911
      
(No page numbers--ed.)
As served at Hotel Belvedere, Baltimore, Maryland
   CLOVER CLUB
Juice of lime.
Few dashes of Grenadine Syrup.
One-sixth Italian Vermouth.
One-sixth French Vermouth.
Two-thirds gin.
Add white of an egg.  Frappe well.
Dress with three mint leaves on edge of glass.
Serve in claret glass.
In season use raspberries instead of Grenadine.  Macerate the raspberries 
with muddler.
  
As served at The Waldorf-Astoria, New York, N. Y.
   CLOVER CLUB
Juice of half lemon.
White of an egg.
Half teaswpoonful powderedsugar.
One drink of Plymouth Gin.
One pony Raspberry Syrup.
Frappe thoroughly and serve in claret glass with a sprig of mint on top.
  
-----------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PEGU CLUB COCKTAIL
  
   I couldn't beat 1930 in the SAVOY CLUB COCKTAIL BOOK, but the following 
book is always a useful place to start for cocktails of this period.  It appears 
from "OED DAYS" that OED is doing the letter "P."
   I must add that I've never been to Burma (I don't want to travel half way 
around the world to throw my support to a brutal military dictatorship), but 
I'm willing to investigate further if OED pays the expenses.
  
  
1700 COCKTAILS
FOR THE MAN BEHIND THE BAR
by R. de Fleury
London: William Heinemann Ltd.
1934
  
Pg. 108:
   No. 840
PEGU CLUB
1 Teaspoon Lime Juice
1/3 Pollen's Curacao
2/3 Coates' Plymouth Gin
1 Dash Orange Bitters
1 Dash Angostura Bitters


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 13 19:38:35 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:38:35 -0400
Subject: "lead pipe cinch" and plumbers 1893
In-Reply-To: <40CCB12A.7157.2840C28@localhost>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.153835.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Several World Wide Words subscribers have asserted that there was a
>device that acted like a wrench to hold lead pipe, but using a fabric
>strap to avoid crushing or scratching the soft material (it was named
>by one writer as a strap wrench) and that this was in fact the lead
>pipe cinch of the expression. I found no examples of "pipe cinch"
>(which might have resulted in the  compound "lead pipe-cinch" being
>reanalysed as "lead-pipe cinch") or any citation that suggested a
>link between plumbing and cinches.

Certainly there are and were strap wrenches. I do not know that any were
called cinches. My newspaper search did not turn up such a thing.

Even if there was a tool or connection called a "lead pipe cinch", what
would connect it semantically with a "sure bet" or "easy task"?

I see several possibilities for the "lead pipe".

(1)

"Stealing lead pipe" may have been a figure of speech like "taking candy
from a baby". I mentioned this just today on this list.

Pro: There is a supporting citation (1887).

Con: I've found only the one supporting citation.

(2)

HDAS quotes an old slang dictionary giving "grapevine cinch" as an
equivalent of "lead-pipe cinch". "Grapevine cinch" looks transparent: the
inside information obtained through the "grapevine" assures that the bet is
a sure thing. Perhaps "lead pipe" is analogous to "grapevine", but how? I
doubt any horses were cinched with grapevine, nor with lead pipe.

"Grapevine" in the information sense is basically a metaphor for "telegraph
line". Central telegraph lines were (I think) often run through lead pipe
to protect them from the elements. Conceivably there could be a clue here.

Unfortunately, I can find NO text employing "grapevine cinch" anywhere.

(3)

Somebody has suggested that there was a standard barroom bet as to whether
a man could bend an iron pipe in his hands (but it was a cinch because it
was a [soft] lead pipe). I'm not sure whether this is plausible: lead pipe
was a well-known commodity, and it's usually easy to distinguish lead from
iron, so I wonder whether people could have been fooled.

(4)

And then there's likely the true etymology, which nobody's thought of yet.
(^_^)

-- Doug Wilson


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Jun 13 21:26:41 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:26:41 -0400
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.172641.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        One might suppose from context that "roll 'em up," "twist 'em up," and "a high tuckahaw" (as it is usually spelled, at least in my experience) refer to dance steps, but I don't know if there is any evidence to support that.  "Tuckahaw" was used in an 1851 work that I found on the Making of America database:

        <<In 1771, they [sc. the Chickasaws] lived in the centre of a large and gently rolling prairie, three miles square.  They obtained their water from holes, which dried up in summer.  In this prairie was an assemblage of houses one mile and a half long, very narrow and irregular, which was divided into seven towns, as follows:
        Mellattau--_hat and feather_.
        Chatelau--_copper town_.
        Chuckafalaya--_long town_.
        Hickihaw--_stand still_.
        Chucalissa--_great town_.
        Tuckahaw--a certain _weed_.
        Ash-wick-boo-ma--_red grass_.>>

Albert James Pickett, History of Alabama, and Incidentally of Georgia and Mississippi, from the Earliest Period, Vol. I, pp. 147 - 48 (2d ed. 1851).  I assume that the italicized words are the translations of the towns' names.

        Admittedly, there is no obvious connection between a Chickasaw word, meaning a certain weed and also referring to a Chickasaw town, and the word used in "Turkey in the Straw," whose meaning is unknown but presumably does not refer to a weed.  I can't help thinking of tobacco, a weed whose leaves may be rolled and twisted and which, as an important agricultural product, might have some connection to hay and straw.  However, if the Chickasaws by "tuckahaw" meant "tobacco," then presumably Pickett would have written "tobacco" and not "a certain weed."

        So we are left with three alternatives:  First, that tuckahaw refers in some sense to tobacco, even though the Chickasaws used it to refer to a different word.  Second, that tuckahaw derives from the Chickasaw word but in this instance is used as a nonsense word.  Third, and perhaps most likely, that the similarity between the word in the song and the Chickasaw word is merely coincidental.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Gerald Cohen
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 5:45 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"


A colleague has asked me about the meaning of "A high tuck-a-haw" in
the lyrics of the song "Turkey in the Straw."  Would anyone know?
The relevant verse is:

        Turkey in the straw,
        Turkey in the straw,
        Roll 'em up and twist 'em up
        A high tuck a-haw
        And hit 'em up a tune called
        Turkey in the Straw.

Also, what does "Roll 'em up and twist 'em up" refer to?

Gerald Cohen


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 13 21:45:44 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:45:44 -0400
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F23B620A@PHEX01.stradley.com >
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.174544.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>         So we are left with three alternatives:  First, that tuckahaw
> refers in some sense to tobacco, even though the Chickasaws used it to
> refer to a different word.  Second, that tuckahaw derives from the
> Chickasaw word but in this instance is used as a nonsense word.  Third,
> and perhaps most likely, that the similarity between the word in the song
> and the Chickasaw word is merely coincidental.

I pretty much agree. Note also that Tuckahoe (same word, it seems) is used
to mean a native of [Lowland] Virginia.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 13 22:25:03 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:25:03 -0400
Subject: OT: 1904 World's Fair foods (again)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.182503.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Amazing.  This never ends.

Barry Popik

(LEXIS-NEXIS)
Independent on Sunday (London)
June 13, 2004, Sunday
SECTION: Final Edition; FEATURES; Pg. 24,25,26
LENGTH: 1690 words

HEADLINE: FOOD & DRINK SPECIAL: TAKE IT AWAY, SAM;
 EVER WONDERED WHO WE HAVE TO THANK FOR THE SUGARY, FATTENING,

BYLINE: MARK ELLWOOD The latest scoop: this photograph of a woman and her children enjoying some of the first ever ice-cream cones was one of the most celebrated of the Fair. Right: an altar to food in Utah's 1904 World's Fair exhibit. Far right: the Grand Basin shows the full glory of the St Louis event Eat me in St Louis: two of the many eateries at the Fair. Right: the Filipino tribesmen displayed' at the event. Rumours that they ate dog gave rise to the naming of the favourite food - a sausage in a bun - at the nearby Olympics

BODY:
Ted Drewes ice-cream parlour is a whitewashed shack on the outskirts of St Louis, Missouri, filled with the constant hum of blenders; there are no tables, just take-out windows, the scrawled menus pasted on the glass. Yet, even on a cold March day, the line for sundaes snakes out of the carpark. What most of the shivering, scarf-wrapped people are waiting for is the house special: a Concrete - a scoop of frozen vanilla custard pureed in a blender with a choice of thickeners from chunks of chocolate to a slab of cherry pie, to a jaw-breaking consistency (hence the name). But the strangest thing about Ted's sundaes isn't their ingredients or moniker - it's the fact that they're served in a cup rather than a cone. Strange because this sweet-toothed city deep in the US's Midwest is where the ice-cream cone was invented. In fact, it was during the World's Fair of 1904 that in one short summer the city helped introduce not only cones but peanut butter, the hot dog, Dr Pepper, iced tea and candy floss too. If any city can lay claim to being the capital of the Fast Food Nation, this is it.

Staged here to celebrate the centenary of America's westward expansion, the 1904 Fair was officially called the Louisiana Purchase Exposition; at that time, St Louis was the fourth largest town in the US and a natural site for a spot of jolly nationalism (and a little chirpy romance, as Judy Garland would find out 40 years later in the classic musical, Meet Me in St Louis). The fair took place in a vast green space now known as Forest Park; more than 20 million people came to see exotica such as a live village shipped wholesale from the Philippines and one of the raunchy dancers performing on an entertainment strip dubbed The Pike.

Scantily clad girls aside, most of the exhibits were nakedly commercial, from lightbulbs to Bissel vacuum cleaners; there were even demonstrations showing the time-saving advantages of cooking with electricity. "Unlike Chicago's exhibition in 1893, this fair didn't focus on art and architecture, it was about what you can buy," explains Andrew Walker, director of collections for the Missouri Historical Society, "it was the dawn of the age of convenience." Nowhere was that clearer than in the Fair's fast food: take the ice-cream cone, an iconic image of the event even in contemporary accounts. "One of the most celebrated pictures taken by the official photographer running around the Fair was of a woman and her children enjoying an ice-cream cone," notes writer and food historian Suzanne Corbett. In colonial times, ice-cream had been a pricey delicacy, but by the 1870s, technical advances made it an affordable if upscale treat; in fact, the turn-of-the-century temperance movement trumpeted it as a genteel substitute for sherry.

Ideal for the clammy St Louis summer, ice-cream was offered in The Pike, but demand was so high that the stallholder ran out of plates to serve it on; that's when Ernest Hamwi - a Syrian immigrant who was making waffles next door - stepped in. He twisted one of his waffles to carry the treat and created the first ever ice-cream cone. "The cone took ice-cream out of the ice-cream parlour and fancy drawing rooms, to make it a food of the masses," explains Corbett. Several manufacturers, including the St Louis Ice-Cream Cone Company and the Missouri Cone Company, sprang up after the fair and for many years the city was the main supplier of cones to the whole country.

Hamwi's waffle solved one of the barriers to the take off of fast food: being able to handle what you're eating. Until the fair, the few carry- out foods on offer usually came with a handy pair of gloves to keep fingers and food apart - stashed in a bun, hot dogs needed no such equipment. And these on-the-go specials quickly became a favourite not only with the throngs visiting the Fair but with spectators at the Olympic Games (which was taking place in the city at the same time) who snapped them up in their thousands.

Certainly, sausages were not invented at the Fair and frankfurters were probably brought to St Louis years before by German immigrants. But it was here that, tucked in a bun, they got a following - and a name. Rumour raged that the Filipino tribesmen in the village exhibit favoured canine cuisine and, even though their government purportedly supplied dozens of dogs for them to eat, local pets were said to be vanishing to satisfy the hunger of the savages. Seeing the publicity potential in this, savvy vendors dubbed their sausage and bun combos "hot dogs".
(SOYLENT GREEN IS MADE OF PEOPLE!  PEOPLE!  IT'S MADE OF PEOPLE!  Sorry, I just had to add this Charlton Heston movie line.  So the INDEPENDENT does no fact-checking whatsoever, not even in the OED?--ed.)

There was another reason, Corbett explains, that frankfurters were so hot at the time. "At the time, these sausages were a food that even the most strait-laced grandmother saw as healthy and nutritious," she says. The same was true for peanut butter. "It was marketed as a healthy food for children," Corbett continues. Peanuts were known to be packed with protein; and for several years, physicians had been fiddling with ways to launch them into the everyday diet. Cereal king John Harvey Kellogg, for example, patented a paste he created from boiled nuts with little success. The problem? Its bland flavour. It was a smart doctor from St Louis (whose name no one can now agree on) who came up with roasting the nuts first. Pureed, they now had a stronger, richer taste. The doctor marketed his paste as ideal for anyone who couldn't chew, whether through poor health or lack of teeth.

But it was yet another man, CH Sumner, who realised peanut butter's potential as a snack food and snapped up the concession to hawk it at the Fair. "He had the peanut-butter grinding apparatus on site so he could grind it freshly," Corbett says. "There is talk that he sold it with crackers or bread, and even as a carry-out item in a little tub for buyers to snack on later." Sumner's instincts were spot-on: he made more than $ 700 and the product was soon launched into mass production by a local entrepreneur (though it would be well into the 1930s when another company came up with the idea of stirring in nut chunks to create a crunchy version).

All that food made the Fair's visitors thirsty. Fortunately, the exhibitors were there to help. Two of the drinks launched at the Fair became favourites: iced tea and Dr Pepper. The former had existed in the Deep South for some time but settlers usually steeped the tea in a jug, left it out in the sun all day and then served it tepid. The St Louis version was brewed hot and poured over ice - an innovation thought up by a group of Chinese and Indian tea producers exhibiting at the Fair and frustrated that no one was buying their hot beverages.

As for Dr Pepper, it was introduced in Texas in 1885 (the name, a tribute to the inventor's first boss, and its oddball flavour coming from prune juice) but it took 20 years for the company to gather enough cash and courage to launch the fizzy drink nationwide; the 1904 Fair was chosen, and to pique interest, free gifts with purchase - think soda-pop watches - were offered, essentially making them the world's first Happy Meal.

Candy floss which, like Dr Pepper, pre-dated the Fair, also kicked off in 1904. The process had been cooked up in Tennessee but here its inventors marketed bundles in wooden boxes and sold almost 70,000 portions of the stuff.

But just why was junk food the legacy of the St Louis show? "There was a boom in product development in the late-19th century," explains Corbett, "and at the same time fast food became acceptable for all classes to eat and enjoy." And not only were these snacks cheap so every fair-goer could afford them, they were also marketed as hot, new 20th-century fads. Unlike past fairs in Chicago or Paris, which looked back at the city's achievements, the mercantile, factory-packed town of St Louis chose to look forwards and predict the products of the next 100 years (and, in the process, stake its claim to mass producing them). Timing was also critical because, as Corbett explains, "by 1904, more people were able to travel than ever before but it still hadn't been considered socially polite to walk around eating things. As communications and transport became faster, food followed suit and became more mobile and more packable."

But the success of iced teas and ice-creams was down to marketing as much as mobility: World's Fairs were the primetime "infomercials" of their day, with the selling power of an ad during Coronation Street and a splash in the Sun combined. Paul Greenhalgh, the former head of research at the Victoria & Albert Museum who is working on a book about World's Fairs notes that various brands, such as Thomas Cook, also owe their pre-eminence to these exhibitions (in Cook's case, London 1851). "There were Olympiads alongside the fairs, they were political events, with giant congresses of doctors and medics, and huge trade fairs," says Greenhalgh. And it was this convergence of business and entertainment that gave absolutely everyone a reason to visit.

The acres of publicity also helped - daily bulletins of the Fair's goings on were such a staple of newspapers across the world that the St Louis board even instituted a Department of Exploitation to churn out propaganda. It was a chance that entrepreneurs such as the Dr Pepper company and CH Sumner seized wisely. "World's Fairs were vital for producing the modern popular and high cultural world," Greenhalgh believes, "from blockbuster exhibitions to all forms of natural history displays as well as the Olympics and Olympia-type trade shows such as the Motor Show."

Though Cook may have London to thank for his travellers' cheques, other cooks - especially reluctant ones - will thank St Louis for ushering in the era of culinary convenience. And while there are always competing claims over the origins of foodstuffs (some say a circus helper invented candy floss 50 years earlier, and sausages are namechecked in the Bible), what's indisputable is that the 1904 St Louis Fair marked the Triumph of Take-Out. After all, contemporary accounts single out a seventh dish as a breakout hit: Chinese fried rice.

LOAD-DATE: June 13, 2004


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 13 22:43:44 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:43:44 EDT
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 11 Jun 2004 to 12 Jun 2004 (#2004-165)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.184344.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated  Sat, 12 Jun 2004 07:31:36 -0400,  "Dennis R. Preston"
<preston at MSU.EDU> asks:

>  Could "West Unself" be "Wes Unseld" in disguise?

Having (back in high school) personally observed Westley Unseld trying to
pass himself off as a 5-foot-4-inch Asian, I have no doubt of it.

Note the spelling of his first name and you will see where "West" came from.
I believe Unseld himself uses the spelling "Wes".

       - Jim Landau


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sun Jun 13 23:18:24 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:18:24 -0400
Subject: lead pipe cinch
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.191824.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry Popik writes, citing Schloss:
> Eric Partridge thought it
>came about through the effectiveness of a length of lead pipe as a weapon. <
~~~~~~~~
This conforms to the meaning "lead pipe cinch" has always had for me:  that
the effectiveness of "lead pipe" as an intensifier was directly related to
its effectiveness as a weapon.
A. Murie


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Jun 14 01:21:07 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:21:07 -0400
Subject: location, location, location 1926
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.212107.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We only had this one back to 1956 I think.

27 Sept. 1926, Chicago Tribune  36/6  (classified ads)

ATTENTION,/SALESMEN, SALES MGRS./ LOCATION/LOCATION/LOCATION
Close in to Rogers park./Greatest cross section business streets./Close to L, 35 min. downtown./Choicest high grade restricted Apartment locations and valuable corners./ PROFITS to your customers./ IMPROVEMENTS--Quick development./ A LOCATION that builds sales/ for you, eliminating all resistance./ Your greatest opportunity to make/ money is in THIS PROPERTY.

Not exactly a house for sale, but the same understanding.

Sam Clements


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Jun 14 01:35:53 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:35:53 -0400
Subject: location location location 1926
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.213553.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I believe we only took this one back to 1956.

27 Sept. 1926  Chicago Tribune 36/6  (classified ads)

ATTENTION,/ SALESMEN, SALES MGRS./ LOCATION/ LOCATION/ LOCATION

   Close in to Rogers Park./ Greatest cross section business streets/close to L, 35 min. downtown/choicest high grade restricted apartment locations and valuable corners/profits to your customers/improvements--quick developemnt/a location that builds sales for you, elimination all resistance/your greates opportunity to make money is in this property.


   --maybe not a house for sale, but still......

SC


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 14 02:02:05 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:02:05 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20OT:=201904=20World's=20Fa?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ir=20foods=20(again)?=
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.220205.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/13/04 6:25:54 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:


> In fact, it was during the World's Fair of 1904 that in one short summer
> the city helped introduce not only cones but peanut butter, the hot dog, Dr
> Pepper, iced tea and candy floss too. If any city can lay claim to being the
> capital of the Fast Food Nation, this is it.
>

I'm surprised that there is no mention of the hamburger, which is often said
to have been first made well known to the American public at the 1904 Fair.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 14 06:13:22 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 02:13:22 EDT
Subject: "Plugra" butter (1988); Tunnel of Fudge (1966)
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.021322.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PLUGRA

PLUGRA--744 Google hits, 435 Google Groups hits
(I don't know if OED is interested; it appears to be a trademark.)


   All you "coup de gras" people might be interested in "plugra."  Just leave
off that last "s" when naming your product after French words!  I just read
that it's from 1989, but it's actually from late 1988.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    Food Notes; Now, a butter with even more fat Nika Hazelton earns her
place as a Grande Dame Exotic prices for the humble banana.
Florence Fabricant. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May
17, 1989. p. C7 (1 page):
_An Even Richer Butter_
   Hotel Bar Foods is winning plaudits from chefs for Plugra, a new butter
developed for professional cooked.  What consumers may think of the name is
something else.  It is pronounced ploo-GRAH, after the French "plus gras" or "more
fat."
   American butters are generally 80 percent pure fat; the rest is moisture
and milk solids.  Plugra, like European butters, is 82 percent fat.  Since it
has less moisture, it is better for baking delicate pastries.  Maurice Bonte,
owner of Bonte Patisserie on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, has been using
it since November.  At Le Cirque, Daniel Boulud has also switched to it.
   The higher the fat content, the better a butter is for clarifying and for
finishing sauces.  Some chefs use less of it than ordinary butter because of
the added richness.  It has a more delicate fresh cream flavor than the regular
Hotel Bar unsalted butter.

    The New Fancy Food Products Seem a Little Hotter This Year
By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.:
Jul 11, 1990. p. C4 (1 page)

    I'll Have My Milk With Cream, And Pass the Butter; I'll Have My Milk With
Cream, and Pass Me the Butter, Too Someone out there is eating fat, from
environmentally correct containers.
By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.:
Oct 30, 1991. p. C1 (2 pages)

    Butter Bites Back; A performer on both the palate and the stove is
returning to the American diet. Butter Bites Back, and Gets Respect
By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.:
Mar 22, 1995. p. C1 (2 pages)


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: Hiroko (jnapier at spam@21stcentury.net)
Subject: Re: French BUtter?
View: Complete Thread (14 articles)
Newsgroups: alt.cooking.chefs, chi.eats
Date: 2002-05-02 11:04:05 PST
(...)
Plugra/Keller
Introduced in the United States in 1989, Plugra is the name that's used when
it's sold to commercial bakeries like ours.  The name Plugra means
simply,"more fat," and at 82 percent it is richer than the typical American offerings.
The same product is packaged for consumers and sold under the label "Keller's."
 Without question, Plugra was a step forward for butter quality in this
country.   It picked up praise in an array of food magazines, and almost every
top-notch commercial baker seems to swear by it.At our own Bakehouse we use very
large quantities of Plugra for pastry baking-you can experience its excellence
and extra-richness in any of ourcroissants, Danish, pain au chocolat, and
other items.  Still, all praise aside, I personally find Plugra a little bland for
eating straight with bread.  This is, of course, the same blandness that
makes it such a good palette for bakers to work with.  By contrast, the full
flavor of Occelli would likely interfere with the subtle spicing and nuance in many
pastries.  So, my suggestion is to use it for baking, but to go with one of
the other options for serving at the table or for melting over baked potatoes
or steamed vegetables.


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   PLUGRA
Goods and Services  IC 029. US 046. G & S: BUTTER. FIRST USE: 19881219. FIRST
USE IN COMMERCE: 19881219
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   73779132
Filing Date February 6, 1989
Current Filing Basis    1A
Original Filing Basis   1A
Published for Opposition    July 18, 1989
Registration Number 1560037
Registration Date   October 10, 1989
Owner   (REGISTRANT) BORDEN, INC. CORPORATION NEW JERSEY 180 EAST BROAD
STREET COLUMBUS OHIO 43215(LAST LISTED OWNER) SODIAAL NORTH AMERICA CORPORATION DBA
("SODIAAL") CORPORATION ASSIGNEE OF DELAWARE 855 MAPLE AVENUE HARLEYSVILLE
PENNSYLVANIA 19438
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record  SUSAN M. LOFASO
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text  SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
TUNNEL OF FUDGE

TUNNEL OF FUDGE--846 Google hits, 548 Google Groups hits

   I'm going through Judith M. Fertig's ALL-AMERICAN DESSERTS (2003), pg.
206:

_Tunnel of Fudge Cake_
   In 1966, Ella Rita Helfrich of Houston, Texas, blew the socks off the
judges and her competition when she won the 17th Pillsbury Bake-Off Contest and a
prize of $5,000.


   Nobody checks these things but me.  Andy Smith owes me a pair of socks for
this.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 Nevada State Journal   Wednesday, January 26, 1966 Reno, Nevada
...needed only 15 minutes to prepare her "TUNNEL OF FUDGE Cake." Kathy
Lunsford.....assistant to 12 apostles in the Church OF Jesus Chrisl OF Latter-day
Saints..
Pg. 7, col. 1:  SAN FRANCISCO (UPI)--Mrs. John (Mari) Petrelli, the wife of a
Las Vegas casino dealer, hit the $25,000 jackpot in the 17th annual Pillsbury
bake-off Tuesday with her "Golden Gate Snack Bread."
(...)
   The $5,000 second prize went to Mrs. Carl (Ella Rita) Helfrich, wife of a
Houston, Tex. railroad machinist, who needed only 15 minutes to prepare her
"Tunnel of Fudge Cake."


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Mon Jun 14 12:02:08 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:02:08 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Safire and OED on "Slam Dunk"
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.080208.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
: At 10:30 AM -0400 6/12/04, Fred Shapiro wrote:
:: On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

:::  Could "West Unself" be "Wes Unseld" in disguise?

:: The original said "West Unseld," actually.  I'm not sure where the
:: "t" in "West" came from.

: It came via assimilation from the res(t) of the sentence:

<snip>

: The context appears to have been the annual NBA all-star game between
: the West(ern Conference), including Jerry West of the L.A. Lakers and
: Lew Alcindor (of the Milwaukee Bucks at the time, later Kareem Abdul
: Jabbar of the Lakers), and the East(ern Conference), including Wes
: Unseld of the Washington Bullets.   The Kennebec Journal just
                ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^
: assimilated poor Wes Unseld to all those  Wests.

Erm, that'd be the *Baltimore* Bullets. Once i learned that the Bullets had
started out in Baltimore, the name made more sense to me--alliteration and
all that.

Of course, now they're the Washington Wizards, in a desperate attempt to
keep the alliteration. My favorite name for the team, though, is the
Washington Buzzards, keeping bits of both names, which (making this,
astonishingly enough, on-topic for the list) i've even seen in print--one of
Tony Kornheiser's columns in the Washington _Post_, IIRC, though it might
have been Mike Wilbon.

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 14 14:32:52 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:32:52 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Safire and OED on "Slam Dunk"
In-Reply-To: <00ab01c45207$6cf60e10$f0fbaa84@BOWIE>
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.103252.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:02 AM -0400 6/14/04, David Bowie wrote:
>From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>...
>: The context appears to have been the annual NBA all-star game between
>: the West(ern Conference), including Jerry West of the L.A. Lakers and
>: Lew Alcindor (of the Milwaukee Bucks at the time, later Kareem Abdul
>: Jabbar of the Lakers), and the East(ern Conference), including Wes
>: Unseld of the Washington Bullets.   The Kennebec Journal just
>                 ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^
>: assimilated poor Wes Unseld to all those  Wests.
>
>Erm, that'd be the *Baltimore* Bullets. Once i learned that the Bullets had
>started out in Baltimore, the name made more sense to me--alliteration and
>all that.

Pardon the Interruption, but they started out in the Windy City, as
the Chicago Zephyrs (named after the politicians who...just kidding).
I thought I should offer a mea culpa--I've been thinking lately about
the Washington Bullets' Man-O-War-like upset via sweep at the hands
of the Golden State Warriors in '75, which was a couple of years
after they had moved down from Baltimore to Landover.  But I was also
thinking that when the franchise won their one and only championship,
in their Washington Bullets incarnation, it was back in the Unseld
days, which it was, but I had forgotten that those days included the
end of the Baltimore Bullets era (through 1972-73), the short-lived
Capital Bullets era (1973-74), and then the start of the Washington
Bullets era (from 1974 until the magic transformation into the
Wizards), including the championship series in 1977-78 and 1978-79
vs. Seattle, the former of which they won.

>
>Of course, now they're the Washington Wizards, in a desperate attempt to
>keep the alliteration.

Well, technically, also prompted by their owner's invocation of taboo
avoidance against the use of the Bullets nickname in Washington, D.C.

>My favorite name for the team, though, is the
>Washington Buzzards, keeping bits of both names, which (making this,
>astonishingly enough, on-topic for the list) i've even seen in print--one of
>Tony Kornheiser's columns in the Washington _Post_, IIRC, though it might
>have been Mike Wilbon.
>
"Buzzards" is nice, but they've been going hungry lately--not enough
carrion to carry on, it would appear.

larry


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Jun 14 16:43:27 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:43:27 -0400
Subject: Chaos in the food column (fwd)
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.124327.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have just sent the following letter to the New York Times letters column,
with CC to William Safire:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:41:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark A. Mandel <mamandel at ldc.upenn.edu>
To: letters at nytimes.com
Cc: onlanguage at nytimes.com
Subject: Chaos in the food column

In Sunday's magazine, Jason Epstein writes of the pioneering cookbook
written by Buwei Yang Chao and her husband, Professor Yuen Ren Chao. I had
the good fortune of knowing them slightly during my days as a graduate
student in linguistics at the University of California, Berkeley, and the
quotation and comments near the end of the article recalled to me Professor
Chao's sense of humor:

        >>>
"Professor Chao [added] this footnote in his own initials: 'The same spoken
word [for what we now call won-ton in English], written differently, means
in fact the nebulous state of confusion when the world began,' an elevated
thought to accompany your next bowl of won-ton soup.

"'How to Cook and Eat in Chinese' is no longer in print, and the Chaos may
no longer be with us."
        <<<

I would add: The same _English written_ word that refers to Professor and
Mrs. Chao, _pronounced_ differently, "means in fact the nebulous state of
confusion when the world began," an amusing thought to reflect on as you
reread their cookbook or eat your next bowl of won-ton soup. I feel sure
that that is exactly what Professor Chao had in mind when writing this
footnote over his own name.

Mark A. Mandel, Research Administrator
Biomedical Information Extraction, Linguistic Data Consortium
University of Pennsylvania
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Jun 14 17:21:41 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:21:41 -0700
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F23B620A@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.102141.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm finding this thread fascinating.  Not because I have any clues to the
etymology of "tuckahaw," but because I love the word whatever its origin,
and because until now I've never had occasion to question the way I first
heard that line of the song from a 78 or possibly 45 children's record.  It
didn't make particular sense to me, but what I heard was a reference to
"the hives and the hogs."  (Hey, the song was about farming, wasn't it?!)

Peter Mc.

--On Sunday, June 13, 2004 5:26 PM -0400 "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
wrote:

>         One might suppose from context that "roll 'em up," "twist 'em
> up," and "a high tuckahaw" (as it is usually spelled, at least in my
> experience) refer to dance steps, but I don't know if there is any
> evidence to support that.  "Tuckahaw" was used in an 1851 work that I
> found on the Making of America database:
>
>         <<In 1771, they [sc. the Chickasaws] lived in the centre of a
> large and gently rolling prairie, three miles square.  They obtained
> their water from holes, which dried up in summer.  In this prairie was an
> assemblage of houses one mile and a half long, very narrow and irregular,
> which was divided into seven towns, as follows:         Mellattau--_hat
> and feather_.
>         Chatelau--_copper town_.
>         Chuckafalaya--_long town_.
>         Hickihaw--_stand still_.
>         Chucalissa--_great town_.
>         Tuckahaw--a certain _weed_.
>         Ash-wick-boo-ma--_red grass_.>>
>
> Albert James Pickett, History of Alabama, and Incidentally of Georgia and
> Mississippi, from the Earliest Period, Vol. I, pp. 147 - 48 (2d ed.
> 1851).  I assume that the italicized words are the translations of the
> towns' names.
>
>         Admittedly, there is no obvious connection between a Chickasaw
> word, meaning a certain weed and also referring to a Chickasaw town, and
> the word used in "Turkey in the Straw," whose meaning is unknown but
> presumably does not refer to a weed.  I can't help thinking of tobacco, a
> weed whose leaves may be rolled and twisted and which, as an important
> agricultural product, might have some connection to hay and straw.
> However, if the Chickasaws by "tuckahaw" meant "tobacco," then presumably
> Pickett would have written "tobacco" and not "a certain weed."
>
>         So we are left with three alternatives:  First, that tuckahaw
> refers in some sense to tobacco, even though the Chickasaws used it to
> refer to a different word.  Second, that tuckahaw derives from the
> Chickasaw word but in this instance is used as a nonsense word.  Third,
> and perhaps most likely, that the similarity between the word in the song
> and the Chickasaw word is merely coincidental.
>
> John Baker
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Gerald Cohen
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 5:45 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
>
>
> A colleague has asked me about the meaning of "A high tuck-a-haw" in
> the lyrics of the song "Turkey in the Straw."  Would anyone know?
> The relevant verse is:
>
>         Turkey in the straw,
>         Turkey in the straw,
>         Roll 'em up and twist 'em up
>         A high tuck a-haw
>         And hit 'em up a tune called
>         Turkey in the Straw.
>
> Also, what does "Roll 'em up and twist 'em up" refer to?
>
> Gerald Cohen



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 14 18:01:53 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:01:53 -0700
Subject: Fwd: LINGUIST 30Q
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.110153.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

i seem to be turning into a ranting curmudgeon; the events of the past
year have left me with little patience for nonsense (like the blind
application of "rules" from style sheets, as below), though i have
endless patience for things i consider to be important.

in the (slightly edited) exchange below, provided for your
entertainment, i demand the reinstatement of a comma in a course
description.  i'm pleased to say that the stanford bulletin editor
replied with a charming note conceding my point and restoring the
comma, a decision applauded by both my department chair and the provost
of the university.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Arnold M. Zwicky <zwicky at csli.stanford.edu>
> Date: June 11, 2004 6:06:55 PM PDT
> To: [ML]
> Cc: [various university administrators]
> Subject: Re: LINGUIST 30Q
>
> On Jun 11, 2004, at 3:19 PM, [ML] wrote:
>
>>  Hi Arnold,
>>  Stylistically, the Bulletin office is opposed to the addition of the
>> comma in your course description. Would you like me to "take up the
>> fight", so to speak, or is it alright without the comma?
>
>>  Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:50:21 -0700
>>  To: [ML]
>>  From: [SS]
>>  Subject: Re: LINGUIST 30Q
>>
>>  Hi [M],
>>  We do not use a comma before "including" or "such as" anywhere in
>> the Bulletin. Descriptions are more like recipes or koans  than
>> expository prose, and many of the style conventions that we use
>> derive from that. Because we use extra commas in lists of 3 or more
>> (i.e., before the "and"), I tend to minimize commas elsewhere unless
>> there is a "meaning reason."
>>
>> Hi [S],
>>
>>  Arnold Zwicky approves of the LINGUIST 30Q course description,
>> except would like to add an extra comma:
>>   i'd like a comma in here:
>>   The real system of English grammar and usage, including...
>
> I suppose I should point out the irony of [SS]'s pronouncement with
> respect to the content of the course I am asking to teach.
>
> There are good reasons for having, or not having, a comma before
> "including" or "such as" (the two cases are not parallel, by the way).
>  A careful writer will consider these.  I wanted that comma because
> the version the Registrar's office wants to insist on --
>
>   The real system of English grammar and usage including prepositions,
> pronouns, modifiers, syntactic functions such as subjects, and forms
> such as the accusative case.
>
> -- fails to distinguish between nonrestrictive modifiers (my
> intention) and restrictive modifiers (the Registrar's version).  I
> would silently correct the Registrar's version in material I was
> editing for publication; it strikes me as semi-literate.
>
> The Registrar's office is, of course, entitled to do whatever it
> wants.  It could decide that the "zw" in my family name is
> unacceptable and insist on correcting it to "zaw".  It could decide
> that my whole name is too peculiar and should be replaced by something
> truly American, say, "Alex Adams".  But I don't have to cooperate.
> Much as I like teaching Stanford undergraduates, and being paid for
> it, I don't have to assent to arbitrary reworkings of what I write.
>
> The Registrar's office proposes to save commas before "including",
> apparently because it's spent its comma quota on serial commas (a good
> decision, by the way, though I can't imagine why this should be viewed
> as a zero-sum game).  This is just a pig-ignorant decision to go for
> consistency, in some utterly superficial sense.  (What person reading
> the Bulletin could *possibly* notice that there was an inconsistency
> in the use of commas before "including"?  Who the hell could care?  Is
> there a problem with commas increasing the size of the Bulletin?  Get
> a grip, people.)
>
> Look, one of the *points* of the course I am hoping to teach is that
> official pronouncements on the use of language -- even including the
> fine details of punctuation -- are not necessarily accurate, sensible,
> or worthy of attention.  Some of them are just fucked.
>
> The Registrar's office is, as I said, entitled to do what it wants.
> I, too, am a free agent.  If the Registrar's office insists on its
> version, I choose to opt out.  I utterly love teaching SIS courses,
> but not at the cost of being pushed around on points on which I am
> something of an authority.
>
> Put back the comma or lose me.  I'm deadly serious about this.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 14 18:36:24 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:36:24 -0700
Subject: [SPAM:#] learning "rules"
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.113624.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

a brief report on a small project done by a student in my sophomore
seminar (on prescriptivism and usage) spring quarter...

the aim of the paper was to look at the effect of explicit teaching on
the way people perceive writing.  the student invented an *incorrect*
"rule" of english grammar -- "each" and "every" are grammatically
plural, and so require a plural verb -- and investigated how people
(stanford undergraduates, in this case, mostly freshmen) would give
explicit judgments of "grammatical
correctness" for sentences involving these two determiners.  cutting
away some details, there was a control group (who were not given the
"rule") and an experimental group (who were), and everybody took a very
brief pre-test questionnaire designed to check, among other things, the
subject's place on an autonomy/compliance scale.

the autonomy/compliance part was less interesting than it might have
been, since almost all of the subjects viewed themselves as
independent.

my student expected the subjects who were given the "rule" to tend
towards compliance to it; years of grammar instruction, often involving
very arbitrary-seeming rules, would have trained them to do their best
to conform to them, at least on tests.

the results were just the opposite.  the subjects who'd been given the
"rule" tended to be deeply suspicious of it -- in a post-test, some
explicitly rejected it -- and to fall back on their judgment as
speakers of english.  the control group, confronted by a mixture of
bizarre and unremarkable sentences, seem to have been made unsure of
themselves.

now, this is a small pilot study, with lots of uncontrolled variables
in it, but it's still intriguing.  one possible interpretation is that
explicit grammatical instruction, especially on points that don't seem
natural for the students (and perhaps especially for highly educated
people), fosters not conformity to rule but resistance.  if so, then if
you want to teach the conventions of formal standard written english,
you should carefully select the "rules" you explicitly articulate,
reinforce, and test: dwelling on split infinitives, stranded
prepositions, possessive antecedents for pronouns, "dangling modifiers"
that are in fact entirely natural, and so on might well  be precisely
counterproductive.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Jun 14 18:33:21 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:33:21 -0400
Subject: Fwd: LINGUIST 30Q
In-Reply-To: <EAF38DA6-BE2C-11D8-8BE9-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.143321.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wow, this gives me heart to object to the writing on our university
website's instructions to international applicants.  It includes run-ons,
fragments, missing commas, oversupplied commas, etc.--all of which native
readers could disentangle but nonnatives could get, well, tangled up in.  I
WILL complain now, though I'm dealing, I'm sure, with low-level page
writers who may not even understand what I'm complaining about.

BTW, I love that "alright" too--a spelling this curmudgeon gets all riled
up about.  (And has anyone noticed that the NY Times fussily uses "roiled
up" whenever it has to use the phrase?  Who on earth ever says "roiled up"?)

At 11:01 AM 6/14/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>i seem to be turning into a ranting curmudgeon; the events of the past
>year have left me with little patience for nonsense (like the blind
>application of "rules" from style sheets, as below), though i have
>endless patience for things i consider to be important.
>
>in the (slightly edited) exchange below, provided for your
>entertainment, i demand the reinstatement of a comma in a course
>description.  i'm pleased to say that the stanford bulletin editor
>replied with a charming note conceding my point and restoring the
>comma, a decision applauded by both my department chair and the provost
>of the university.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>
>Begin forwarded message:
>
>>From: Arnold M. Zwicky <zwicky at csli.stanford.edu>
>>Date: June 11, 2004 6:06:55 PM PDT
>>To: [ML]
>>Cc: [various university administrators]
>>Subject: Re: LINGUIST 30Q
>>
>>On Jun 11, 2004, at 3:19 PM, [ML] wrote:
>>
>>>  Hi Arnold,
>>>  Stylistically, the Bulletin office is opposed to the addition of the
>>>comma in your course description. Would you like me to "take up the
>>>fight", so to speak, or is it alright without the comma?
>>
>>>  Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:50:21 -0700
>>>  To: [ML]
>>>  From: [SS]
>>>  Subject: Re: LINGUIST 30Q
>>>
>>>  Hi [M],
>>>  We do not use a comma before "including" or "such as" anywhere in
>>>the Bulletin. Descriptions are more like recipes or koans  than
>>>expository prose, and many of the style conventions that we use
>>>derive from that. Because we use extra commas in lists of 3 or more
>>>(i.e., before the "and"), I tend to minimize commas elsewhere unless
>>>there is a "meaning reason."
>>>
>>>Hi [S],
>>>
>>>  Arnold Zwicky approves of the LINGUIST 30Q course description,
>>>except would like to add an extra comma:
>>>   i'd like a comma in here:
>>>   The real system of English grammar and usage, including...
>>
>>I suppose I should point out the irony of [SS]'s pronouncement with
>>respect to the content of the course I am asking to teach.
>>
>>There are good reasons for having, or not having, a comma before
>>"including" or "such as" (the two cases are not parallel, by the way).
>>  A careful writer will consider these.  I wanted that comma because
>>the version the Registrar's office wants to insist on --
>>
>>   The real system of English grammar and usage including prepositions,
>>pronouns, modifiers, syntactic functions such as subjects, and forms
>>such as the accusative case.
>>
>>-- fails to distinguish between nonrestrictive modifiers (my
>>intention) and restrictive modifiers (the Registrar's version).  I
>>would silently correct the Registrar's version in material I was
>>editing for publication; it strikes me as semi-literate.
>>
>>The Registrar's office is, of course, entitled to do whatever it
>>wants.  It could decide that the "zw" in my family name is
>>unacceptable and insist on correcting it to "zaw".  It could decide
>>that my whole name is too peculiar and should be replaced by something
>>truly American, say, "Alex Adams".  But I don't have to cooperate.
>>Much as I like teaching Stanford undergraduates, and being paid for
>>it, I don't have to assent to arbitrary reworkings of what I write.
>>
>>The Registrar's office proposes to save commas before "including",
>>apparently because it's spent its comma quota on serial commas (a good
>>decision, by the way, though I can't imagine why this should be viewed
>>as a zero-sum game).  This is just a pig-ignorant decision to go for
>>consistency, in some utterly superficial sense.  (What person reading
>>the Bulletin could *possibly* notice that there was an inconsistency
>>in the use of commas before "including"?  Who the hell could care?  Is
>>there a problem with commas increasing the size of the Bulletin?  Get
>>a grip, people.)
>>
>>Look, one of the *points* of the course I am hoping to teach is that
>>official pronouncements on the use of language -- even including the
>>fine details of punctuation -- are not necessarily accurate, sensible,
>>or worthy of attention.  Some of them are just fucked.
>>
>>The Registrar's office is, as I said, entitled to do what it wants.
>>I, too, am a free agent.  If the Registrar's office insists on its
>>version, I choose to opt out.  I utterly love teaching SIS courses,
>>but not at the cost of being pushed around on points on which I am
>>something of an authority.
>>
>>Put back the comma or lose me.  I'm deadly serious about this.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 14 18:59:09 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:59:09 -0700
Subject: LINGUIST 30Q
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040614141432.01d0c990@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.115909.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 14, 2004, at 11:33 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> Wow, this gives me heart to object to the writing on our university
> website's instructions to international applicants.  It includes
> run-ons,
> fragments, missing commas, oversupplied commas, etc.--all of which
> native
> readers could disentangle but nonnatives could get, well, tangled up
> in.  I
> WILL complain now, though I'm dealing, I'm sure, with low-level page
> writers who may not even understand what I'm complaining about.

[SS] in my story is in fact a drastically over-educated person for the
job: a berkeley ph.d. in indonesian literature!  (i'm not making this
up.)  so it's no surprise i got such a thoughtful response.  even an
invitation to take me out for a cup of coffee.

i have had less pleasant resolutions to my resistance to pig-ignorant
editing.  for instance, several blood-soaked battles with editors who
refused to countenance "since" and "while" in logical, rather than
temporal, uses.  (if i remember correctly, the American Psychological
Association manual still stickles on this point.)

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), noting that he did in fact change
many people's  attitudes in courses this spring -- but it took ten
weeks, with a long slow build-up; also noting that he's watching the
encore bit to eddie izzard's Dress To Kill, which has a lot of very
funny (also profane) stuff about language in it


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Jun 14 19:11:48 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:11:48 -0400
Subject: LINGUIST 30Q
In-Reply-To: <EAAAFC09-BE34-11D8-8BE9-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.151148.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gee, I use logical "since" and "while" all the time and wondered why
editors changed them.  Maybe they're a sign of our generation. . . .

At 11:59 AM 6/14/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>On Jun 14, 2004, at 11:33 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>>Wow, this gives me heart to object to the writing on our university
>>website's instructions to international applicants.  It includes
>>run-ons,
>>fragments, missing commas, oversupplied commas, etc.--all of which
>>native
>>readers could disentangle but nonnatives could get, well, tangled up
>>in.  I
>>WILL complain now, though I'm dealing, I'm sure, with low-level page
>>writers who may not even understand what I'm complaining about.
>
>[SS] in my story is in fact a drastically over-educated person for the
>job: a berkeley ph.d. in indonesian literature!  (i'm not making this
>up.)  so it's no surprise i got such a thoughtful response.  even an
>invitation to take me out for a cup of coffee.
>
>i have had less pleasant resolutions to my resistance to pig-ignorant
>editing.  for instance, several blood-soaked battles with editors who
>refused to countenance "since" and "while" in logical, rather than
>temporal, uses.  (if i remember correctly, the American Psychological
>Association manual still stickles on this point.)
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), noting that he did in fact change
>many people's  attitudes in courses this spring -- but it took ten
>weeks, with a long slow build-up; also noting that he's watching the
>encore bit to eddie izzard's Dress To Kill, which has a lot of very
>funny (also profane) stuff about language in it


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Jun 14 20:36:22 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:36:22 -0400
Subject: lead-pipe cinch
In-Reply-To: <20040614040025.B031B228AE@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.163622.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry gives a quote as follows:

        >>>
 Larry Krakauer described it like this: =E2=80=9CWe =E2=80=98cinch=E2=
=80=99, or =E2=80=98cinch up=E2=80=99,=20
anything that is held tightly by a strap or rope. If you want to cinch=20
something really tightly, you put something like a stick, or perhaps a piece=
 of pipe,=20
through the rope loop that goes around the object to be held, and you twist=20
it. The length of pipe twisting the rope gives you enormous leverage. Lead p=
ipe=20
was a suitable size and was likely to be available.=E2=80=9D This sounds pos=
sible,=20
though essential evidence is lacking.
        <<<

Since lead pipe is indeed soft, I would expect a piece of lead pipe to be
LESS suitable for this purpose than a good solid stick of wood, which, as
long as it doesn't break, can be relied on to keep its shape and transmit
all your torque to the loop, rather than absorbing some of it by bending
and/or compressing.

-- Mark Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 14 21:20:26 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:20:26 -0700
Subject: LINGUIST 30Q
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040614150958.01d1d0d0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.142026.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 14, 2004, at 12:11 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> Gee, I use logical "since" and "while" all the time and wondered why
> editors changed them.  Maybe they're a sign of our generation. . . .

the logical uses are innovative -- but back the usual donkey's years,
according to MWDEU, which cites shakespeare etc.  the proscriptive
backlash, based on the potential for ambiguity, seems to date from
70-100 years ago.  the true innovation is the passion with which these
usages are attacked.

so, no, beverly, our generation is not the problem.

as for the ambiguity problem, i should note -- as geoff pullum pointed
out to me some long time ago -- that this is another one of those cases
(the positioning of "only" and "even" is another) where editors cite
ambiguity as the reason for avoiding some usage, but seem to be utterly
flawless in determining the writer's intent for the purposes of
"correction".  i have never had an editor who failed to understand
*perfectly* the intended meanings of "while" and "since" in my writing.
  think about that.

perhaps this should be labeled Paradoxical Acquired Editorial Agnosia.
it's paradoxical in the same way my partner's inability to read the
word CALIFORNIA (and only the word CALIFORNIA) was paradoxical.  he
believed he lived somewhere back east, in what the family thought of as
New Ohioylvania, some amalgam of new jersey, ohio, and pennsylvania, so
the fact that virtually every car he saw had a CALIFORNIA license plate
was threatening to this theory, and he fixed the contradiction by
blocking the word from the top level of his consciousness.  but the
bottom line here is that to be unable to read (just) the word
CALIFORNIA, you have to be able to read the word CALIFORNIA.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), recalling the claimed inability of
some otherwise intelligent people to be able to understand varieties of
english with multiple negation


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Jun 14 22:47:07 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 18:47:07 -0400
Subject: LINGUIST 30Q
In-Reply-To: <A78120A6-BE48-11D8-8BE9-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.184707.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 02:20 PM 6/14/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>On Jun 14, 2004, at 12:11 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>>Gee, I use logical "since" and "while" all the time and wondered why
>>editors changed them.  Maybe they're a sign of our generation. . . .
>
>the logical uses are innovative -- but back the usual donkey's years,
>according to MWDEU, which cites shakespeare etc.  the proscriptive
>backlash, based on the potential for ambiguity, seems to date from
>70-100 years ago.  the true innovation is the passion with which these
>usages are attacked.
>
>so, no, beverly, our generation is not the problem.
>
>as for the ambiguity problem, i should note -- as geoff pullum pointed
>out to me some long time ago -- that this is another one of those cases
>(the positioning of "only" and "even" is another) where editors cite
>ambiguity as the reason for avoiding some usage, but seem to be utterly
>flawless in determining the writer's intent for the purposes of
>"correction".  i have never had an editor who failed to understand
>*perfectly* the intended meanings of "while" and "since" in my writing.
>  think about that.
>
>perhaps this should be labeled Paradoxical Acquired Editorial Agnosia.
>it's paradoxical in the same way my partner's inability to read the
>word CALIFORNIA (and only the word CALIFORNIA) was paradoxical.  he
>believed he lived somewhere back east, in what the family thought of as
>New Ohioylvania, some amalgam of new jersey, ohio, and pennsylvania, so
>the fact that virtually every car he saw had a CALIFORNIA license plate
>was threatening to this theory, and he fixed the contradiction by
>blocking the word from the top level of his consciousness.  but the
>bottom line here is that to be unable to read (just) the word
>CALIFORNIA, you have to be able to read the word CALIFORNIA.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), recalling the claimed inability of
>some otherwise intelligent people to be able to understand varieties of
>english with multiple negation


Right.  I still get undergrads occasionally who believe what their h.s.
teachers told them:  two negatives = positive; three = negative; four =
positive, etc.  (I'm extrapolating: Though no one has ever gone that far in
reporting this "rule," the "logic" would follow.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Jun 15 04:11:18 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 00:11:18 -0400
Subject: "Mutt" etymology (speculative) addendum: more "mutton[loving]
 dogs"
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040530133335.02f22eb0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.001118.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here are a few more variants on "mutton dog" = "sheep-killing dog".

----------

_Marion Daily Star_ (Marion OH), 14 March 1881: p. 4(?), col. 4:

<<Mutton loving dogs have just cost Summit county Commissioners $855 for
sheep.>>

----------

_Decatur Morning Review_ (Decatur IL), 27 Feb. 1891: p. 4(?), col. 5:

<<John Nichols ... has been paid $145 from the "Dog License fund," as
indemnity for the murder of numerous valuable sheep by mutton loving canines.>>

----------

_Wellsboro Agitator_ (Wellsboro PA), 26 Aug. 1891: p. 3(?), col. 3:

<<Last Wednesday morning Mr. William Staats, of Delmar, discovered two dogs
worrying his sheep, and he shot one dead and wounded the other. The dead
dog was found to have a collar bearing Mr. Robinson's name. The other
mutton loving canine belonged to Mr. Lyman P. Chamberlain.>>

----------

_Indiana Democrat_ (Indiana PA), 29 Sep. 1897: p. 1, col. 3:

<<Green township was favored last week by the marauding mutton canines ....>>

----------

_Adams County News_ (Gettysburg PA), 17 July 1909: p. 7(?), col. 6:

<<Watch the dogs that come around the flock. They may be mutton lovers.>>

----------

That has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? "Out of my way, you mangy
mutton-lover!"

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Jun 15 04:23:36 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 00:23:36 -0400
Subject: "Lead-pipe cinch" (1889)
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.002336.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here is an early example of "lead-pipe cinch" = "sure bet":

----------

_Decatur Morning Review_ (Decatur IL), 17 Dec. 1889: p. 5(?), col. 3:

[legislators are bribed by deliberately losing to them at poker]

<<The money was transferred in a unique way. The briber and bribed would
sit down to a game of poker and a "lead-pipe cinch" was nothing to the sure
thing the legislators had.>>

----------

As a possible irrelevancy, I note that a card game called "cinch" was
popular around this time.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 15 05:36:06 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 01:36:06 EDT
Subject: Dodgeball (1914) or Dodge Ball (1903)
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.013606.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DODGEBALL--331,000 Google hits, 10,500 Google Groups hits
DODGE BALL--58,000 Google hits, 12,700 Google Groups hits

   "Dodgeball" is not in the OED at all.
   "Dodge ball" is not an OED entry, but is mentioned in one single 1986
citation.
   Where can I write to the North American editor of the OED?  Can you throw
stuff at him?
   Merriam-Webster has "ca. 1922."  OUTING, in the American Periodical Series
Online, might have it.
   Soon to be a major motion picture, in a theatre near you.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("dodgeball")
    1.  GIRL ATHLETES AT CENTRAL.; General Sport Program Includes Four
Basketball Contests.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Mar 7, 1914. p. 2 (1 page)
:
   Following is a list of the several events: Running race, led by Miss
Beulah Smith; dodgeball, Misses Dorothy Johnson and Estelle Thomas;...

    2.  School Activities; The contest on school activities will be
continued. Write about the special activities of your school and win some spending
money. Central High. Prize, $2. Lackey High School, Indian Head, Md. Prize, $2.
THE ROBIN.
The Washington Post (1877. Oct 9, 1921. p. 46 (1 page):
   We practice basketball, dodgeball and other games,...

    3.  THE STORY OF THE FOUR H CLUB; Prize, $1 Prize, $1 Prize, $1
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 20, 1921. p. 69 (1
page)

    4.  ROSEDALE PLAYGROUNDS.; A TRIP TO GETTYSBURG. THE THRALL OF "LOVE AT
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 27, 1922. p. 53 (1
page)

    5.  HYATTSVILLE HIGH CAPUTRES CARNIVAL
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 20, 1923. p. 4 (1
page)

    6.  THE Sportswoman
By DOROTHY E. GREENE. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Dec
22, 1924. p. S3 (1 page)

    7.  The Sportswoman
By DOROTHY E. GREENE. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr
16, 1925. p. 19 (1 page)

    8.  Swimming Now Minor Sport at Duke U.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 9, 1925. p. 16 (1
page)

    9.  The Sportswoman
By DOROTHY E. GREENE. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug
4, 1925. p. 15 (1 page)

    10. The Sportswoman
By DOROTHY E. GREENE. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug
18, 1925. p. 15 (1 page)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("dodge ball")
    1.  CRISP SAYINGS.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 2, 1887. p. 4 (1
page)

    2.  OPERATIC STARS AT BASEBALL.; Men of the Alice Nielsen Company Try
Conclusions on the Diamond.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 28, 1899. p. 8 (1
page)

    3.  American Art Institute in Paris.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Mar 31, 1900. p. 10 (1
page)

    4.  VACATION SCHOOL WORK; Features of the Board of Education's Summer
Scheme. Playgrounds, Their Rules, and Their Recreations -- Methods That Various
Teachers Use with Children.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 21, 1903. p. 12 (1
page):
   "When the day school is finished we stop the stories and get to play.  We
have basket ball, dodge ball, and every other sort of game you can imagine to
be fitting for a school playground."

    5.  BOY FOOLS SHERIFF.
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 22, 1903. p.
2 (1 page)

    6.  DARING ON THE DIAMOND; SUFFERING IN GRAND STAND; Horrors of
Earthquake Almost Forgotten by 2,113 Brave Souls Rooted to the Spot During the Baseball
Game Between Centurys and Metropolitans.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 3, 1906. p. 5 (1 page)


    7.  CHILDREN HAVE OUTING; Pupils of Third Division Have Frolic at River
View. PRIZES FOR BOYS AND GIRLS All Records Smashed in Running and Jumping
Contests -- Only Blot on Programme Is Failure to Play Off Ball Games, but They Are
Now Scheduled for Next Wednesday -- Prize Winners.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 9, 1907. p. 16 (1
page)

    8.  PLAYGROUND PUPILS SHOW THEIR SKILL; Thousands of Children Give the
First of a Series of Exhibitions. FANCY DANCES A FEATURE Spectators Applaud Folk
Movements, in Which the Public School Pupils Have Been Instructed.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 16, 1908. p. 3 (1
page)

    9.  1,000 IN FIELD GAMES; Children Crowd Playgrounds at Season's Last
Events. EXHIBITIONS OF FINE WORK Instructors Show Baskets, Doilies, and Other
Things Made During Summer. Girls Give Fancy Dances and Boys Have Baseball and
Other Athletic Con- tests -- New Apparatus at Howard.
The Washington Post. Sep 17, 1910. p. 2 (1 page)

    10. FLETCHER'S DAY IS AT HAND, BUT PROMOTER IS NOT HERE; Contracts and
$10,000 Bonus Money Should Be Shown to Third Leaguers Today -- Rumors of Another
Sale of Phillies Are Heard.
BY JOE S. JACKSON.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb
10, 1911. p. 8 (1 page)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 15 06:24:30 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 02:24:30 EDT
Subject: "Famous for being famous" (1973)
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.022430.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FAMOUS FOR BEING FAMOUS--3,380 Google hits,   1,470 Google Groups hits
  
"Paris Hilton--who is famous, well, for being famous--returns to TV this week 
in 'The SImple Life 2: Road Trip.'"
--NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, 13 June 2004, pg. 3, col. 1.
    
  
   Fred Shapiro probably has this.  Either Andy Warhol said it or it was said 
of Andy Warhol.  I couldn't easily find an exact citation.
   8:30 a.m.-8 p.m. of parking tickets in the Bronx for a guy who once solved 
"the Big Apple."  Meanwhile, my multi-millionaire ex-wife, now married to 
someone else, "famous for being famous," stars in GIGLI.  

    
(GOOGLE)
Matt & Andrej Koymasky - Famous GLTB - Andy Warhol... Joe Dallesandro and 
Andy Warhol. Andy Warhol, is the supposed inventor of "famous for being famous
"... whether lasting or not. Andy's ... 
andrejkoymasky.com/liv/fam/biow1/warh1.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages   
  
Emeril's Miami Beach - Emeril Lagasse Comes to South Beach... had great 
God-given talent; Andy Warhol had a smidgen of talent and a great marketing sense. 
He invented the phrase “famous for being famous.” And now we ... 
www.southbeach-usa.com/restaurants/ misc/emeril/emerils-miami-beach.htm - 21k 
- Cached - Similar pages    

CHP (Christian Heritage Party of Canada)... Celebrity is the TV-era 
phenomenon that sees people as newsworthy only because they are, in Andy Warhol's 
memorable phrase, "famous for being famous." So TV ... 
www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/chp/comm11-02.html - 7k - Cached - Similar pages 

SOFT CELL... Everyone knows Warhol’s quote ‘famous for 15 minutes’, but the 
other Warhol quote that people should rediscover is ‘famous for being famous’
. ... 
www.contemporary-magazine.com/november/softcell.html - 21k - Cached - Similar 
pages   
 
Canadian Fundie Digest (est. 27/04/04)... Celebrity is the TV-era phenomenon 
that sees people as newsworthy only because they are, in Andy Warhol?s 
memorable phrase, ?famous for being famous.? ... 
canadianfundie.blogspot.com/ - 94k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
Popdirt.com - Jennifer Lopez Is Famous For Being Famous
... Vote for us by visiting the following top site: O-Town. Jennifer Lopez Is 
Famous
For Being Famous Posted on Wednesday, November 13 @ 23:09:15 PST by MusicMan. 
... 
popdirt.com/article10037.html - 21k - Cached - Similar pages 

Today's Top 10: Britney Spears, Byonce, Clay Aiken...
... And then there's Jennifer Lopez Her movies have done terribly recently, 
the music
is ... She's becoming sort of like Zsa Zsa Gabor -- famous for being famous. 
... 
top40.about.com/library/weekly/aatopten120103.htm - 27k - Cached - Similar 
pages 

The MacMinute Café: J-Who?
... J-Who? Ok...Why is Jennifer Lopez in the news so much? Seriously? Why ... 
coverage?
Aside from being famous for being famous, why all the noise? ... 
www.macminute.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showflat. pl?Cat=&Board=lounge&
Number=174408&page=11&... - 27k - Jun 13, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages 

Kin's Kouch: Famous for being famous
... January 21, 2004. Famous for being famous. Hey, Adam! I'll meet you
at the corner of Paris Hilton Boulevard and Nicole Richie Avenue. ... 
kinskouch.virtualsushi.us/archives/000387.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
The Daily Nugget - Paris Hilton Sex Tape Review
... The media says that the video is going to hurt Paris's career, but
I ask, "what career?" This girl is just famous for being famous. ... 
www.dailynugget.com/000542.php - Similar pages 

Paris Hilton fan page, stolen sex video download
... eyes, like if you have confidence, and you're a nice person and sweet, 
and you're
funny, I think that's sexy." --Paris Claim to Fame: Famous for being famous. 
... 
www.visitcelebrities.com/paris-hilton/ - 8k - Cached - Similar pages 

   
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Arts-the One Stable Currency
By Eric Larrabee. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 2, 
1973. p. 145 (1 page):
   Perhaps this point is worth elaborating.  The present period is one which 
puts peculiar emphasis on image and personality.  We even have a concept 
called "celebrity," which consists in being famous for being famous.  In the 
atmosphere this breeds it is not surprising that honest achievement at something 
truly difficult becomes unusually rare and admirable.
(...)
   _Eric Larrabee is executive director of the New York State Council on the 
Arts.  This article was excerpted from a talk at the Memorial Art Gallery in 
Rochester._
     
    2.  Television: The Role Of the 'Anchorman'
David Brinkley. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: 
Apr 1, 1974. p. A22 (1 page)   
     
    3.  Television: The Role Of the 'Anchorman'
David Brinkley. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: 
Apr 8, 1974. p. A22 (1 page):
   I believe the television anchorman becomes famous, but not for his power 
to influence uncritical masses of people, and not for his ability to change the 
social or political order or to elect a candidate or defeat one.  So what is 
he famous for?  Mainly, he is famous for being famous.
     
    4.  Writers and Sports: In This League, Pete Rose Outhits Gustave 
Flaubert
By JOHN LEONARD. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 30, 
1975. p. 52 (1 page):
      _Whole World Watching_
   Why?  Of the many good writers who slum in sports, Mr. (Wilfrid--ed.) 
Sheed is most explicit in extenuations.  Celebrityhood, he suggests--the quality 
of being famous for being famous--ought to be pondered in its manifold 
latencies.
     
    5.  STAGE VIEW; 'Anne Frank' Shouldn't Be 'Quentin Crisp' STAGE VIEW 'An 
Evening With Quentin Crisp' 
WALTER KERR. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 7, 1979. 
p. D3 (2 pages):
   He (Quentin Crisp--ed.) belabors the proposition that there are fashions 
in ideas as well as in clothes (was there ever a time when that wasn't 
self-evident?) and is not above borrowing stock phrases ("Andy Warhol is famous for 
being famous").
     
    6.  Bogie's Widow Famous For Being Famous; Bogie's Widow Famous For Being 
Famous 
RICHARD COHEN. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 
25, 1979. p. C1 (2 pages)   


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 15 07:03:09 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 03:03:09 EDT
Subject: Water-boarding (May 2004)
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.030309.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WATER BOARDING + TORTURE--649 Google hits, 72 Google Groups hits
WATERBOARDING + TORTURE--114 Google hits,   10 Google Groups hits
    
   I haven't yet checked "water-boarding" on FACTIVA.
   Recommend it to the Word Spy.  "Meanderthal?"  Larry Horn posted that here 
two years ago!  
    
  
(GOOGLE)
http://www.andrewsullivan.com/
Tuesday, June 15, 2004
 
TORTURE: Well, we're getting closer to understanding what's been going on. 
Here's a nugget from Newsweek: 
> White House officials told reporters that such abstract legal reasoning was 
> insignificant and did not reflect the president's orders. But NEWSWEEK has 
> learned that Yoo's August 2002 memo was prompted by CIA questions about what 
> to do with a top Qaeda captive, Abu Zubaydah, who had turned uncooperative. 
> And it was drafted after White House meetings convened by George W. Bush's 
> chief counsel, Alberto Gonzales, along with Defense Department general counsel 
> William Haynes and David Addington, Vice President Dick Cheney's counsel, who 
> discussed specific interrogation techniques, says a source familiar with the 
> discussions. Among the methods they found acceptable: "water-boarding," or 
> dripping water into a wet cloth over a suspect's face, which can feel like 
> drowning; and threatening to bring in more-brutal interrogators from other 
> nations.
This kind of tactic was designed specifically for a few top al Qaeda 
captives; but it was apparently transferred to Abu Ghraib as well.   
    

  
(GOOGLE GROUPS) ("waterboarding")
Re: Enterprise's Season 3 Deconstructed
... (OK, class, raise your hands if you know what waterboarding is.) I am ... 
the show's
content think it is reasonable for a Star Trek captain to torture a prisoner 
... 
rec.arts.startrek.current - Jun 7, 2004 by Edward McArdle - View Thread (14 
articles)
  
The Neo-Con Iraq Glossary
... conditions for interrogation: Torture. Related terms: "stress positions" 
(eg, "If
you fall off the box, you'll be electrocuted!"); "waterboarding" (Not as ... 
uk.current-events.terrorism - Jun 4, 2004 by Nes - View Thread (1 article
  
)Did Bush Intentionally Mislead Supreme Court?
... to the Times, those practices include something called "waterboarding" -- 
a process
by ... A "pedestrian" definition of "torture and that sort of thing" would 
also ... 
alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater - May 20, 2004 by Gandalf Grey - View 
Thread (1 article
  
)The Bush Regime: Covering Up the Coverup
... given little guidance about the means (short of lethal torture) deemed 
appropriate. ... These
included waterboarding, in which a detainee is pushed under water and ... 
alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater - May 17, 2004 by Gandalf Grey - View 
Thread (1 article)
  
Re: Nick Berg beheading video is fake
... would be less likely to be treated improperly, and torture was less ... 
Times yesterday,
which reported that CIA interrogators used "waterboarding" - a euphemism ... 
alt.support.marriage - May 17, 2004 by Xenos the elder - View Thread (34 
articles
  
)Re: Iraqi In Custody Tortured To Death
... html According to today's New York Times, the CIA subjects its "high 
profile" torture
victims to such medieval practices as "waterboarding"--strapping the ... 
alt.impeach.bush - May 17, 2004 by Theo Brady Bunch - View Thread (3 
articles)


(GOOGLE GROUPS) ("water-boarding")
Poor al Qeada
... that CIA interrogators used graduated methods of persuasion like "water 
boarding."
(Almost sounds ... had information that would prevent 9/11, would you torture 
him ... 
ia.talk.misc - May 13, 2004 by Dan Larsen - View Thread (15 articles)
  
It's Obvious Prison Torture Wasn't Isolated, Bu$h Lied YET AGAIN ... 
... water boarding" in which the prisoner is forcibly pushed under water to 
the point
that he believes he will drown. "This would be a clear case of torture," ... 
alt.fan.howard-stern - May 13, 2004 by ---= Ö§âmâ ßíñ Këñ0ßí =--- - View 
Thread (3 articles)
  
OT - Are these War Crimes?
... use of harsh interrogation techniques, including the water-boarding 
tactic used ... in
violation of American statutes that prohibit torture, degrading treatment or 
... 
soc.culture.thai - May 13, 2004 by ian - View Thread (3 articles)
  
[NYTr] RHC News Summary - May 13, 2004
... Representative Jane Harman said she saw "cruel, sadistic torture." 
Democratic Senator
Bill ... who was subjected to a technique known as water boarding, in which a 
... 
misc.activism.progressive - May 13, 2004 by nytr at tania.blythe-systems.com - 
View Thread (1 article
  
)CIA Torture ("interrogations") are "too brutal" says even the FBI
... a detainee who was subjected to a technique known as water boarding, in 
which ... the
secret interrogation rules say the methods stop short of torture and serious 
... 
talk.politics.misc - May 13, 2004 by Economic Democracy - View Thread (3 
articles)
  
Did the DOJ lie to the SC?!(NDC)
... agents' use of (in Justice Ginsburg's words) "mild torture." Today, 
however ... graduated
levels of force, including a technique known as 'water boarding,' in which 
... 
rec.music.gdead - May 13, 2004 by John Doherty - <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=jgnospamdoherty-38558A.10443513052004%40netnews.comcast.net&rnum=30View Thread (1 article)


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 15 13:41:02 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 08:41:02 -0500
Subject: Gitmoize
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.084102.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From wire service article on Yahoo news.

Gitmo is slang for Guantanamo Bay, where many Iraqi and Afghani prisoners
are held.  Karpinski is Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, who (until she recently
was relieved) commanded Abu Ghraib prison.

"Karpinski said that during a visit to Iraq in September, Miller - still the
commander at the Guantanamo Bay prison - spoke of wanting to "Gitmoize" Abu
Ghraib by applying the Cuban facility's regimented detention and
interrogation techniques.


"He talked about Gitmoizing in terms of what the (military police) were
going to do; he was going to select the MPs, they were going to receive
special training," she said. "


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 15 14:54:20 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 09:54:20 -0500
Subject: peacenik
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.095420.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists September 1963 p 21-22
"What Price Peace" by W. H. Ferry

"I am a peacenik, but the endeavors of the many
peacenik organizations with which I am associated look
more and more like prayer wheels whirling in front of
a bursting dam."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 15 15:52:25 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:52:25 -0400
Subject: Chaos in the food column (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <20040614124202.J87618@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.115225.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:43 PM -0400 6/14/04, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>I have just sent the following letter to the New York Times letters column,
>with CC to William Safire:
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:41:33 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Mark A. Mandel <mamandel at ldc.upenn.edu>
>To: letters at nytimes.com
>Cc: onlanguage at nytimes.com
>Subject: Chaos in the food column
>
>In Sunday's magazine, Jason Epstein writes of the pioneering cookbook
>written by Buwei Yang Chao and her husband, Professor Yuen Ren Chao. I had
>the good fortune of knowing them slightly during my days as a graduate
>student in linguistics at the University of California, Berkeley, and the
>quotation and comments near the end of the article recalled to me Professor
>Chao's sense of humor:
>
>         >>>
>"Professor Chao [added] this footnote in his own initials: 'The same spoken
>word [for what we now call won-ton in English], written differently, means
>in fact the nebulous state of confusion when the world began,' an elevated
>thought to accompany your next bowl of won-ton soup.
>
>"'How to Cook and Eat in Chinese' is no longer in print, and the Chaos may
>no longer be with us."
>         <<<
>
>I would add: The same _English written_ word that refers to Professor and
>Mrs. Chao, _pronounced_ differently, "means in fact the nebulous state of
>confusion when the world began," an amusing thought to reflect on as you
>reread their cookbook or eat your next bowl of won-ton soup. I feel sure
>that that is exactly what Professor Chao had in mind when writing this
>footnote over his own name.
>
>Mark A. Mandel, Research Administrator
>Biomedical Information Extraction, Linguistic Data Consortium
>University of Pennsylvania
>[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

Nice.  Just a bit more Chaos Theory...

There were two other significant points related to the cookbook
missed in the Times article:

(1) while Epstein does comment on the book's introduction of a new
sex-indefinite third person singular pronoun--
====================
Chao was a Chinese doctor who ''never stirred an egg'' until she went
to the Tokyo Women's Medical College, where she found ''Japanese food
so uneatable that I had to cook my own meals.'' She adds, in an
author's note in the first edition, that ''by the time I became a
doctor I also became something of a cook.''  Since she admitted that
she could hardly speak, much less write, English, it must have been
her scholarly husband who wrote (in his wife's name) ''eatable,''
from the Old English ''etan,'' rather than the more pretentious
''edible,'' imported from the Latin edibilis. In fact, it is obvious
that the professor wrote virtually the entire book in his wife's
name. That also explains why he coined the pronoun hse for he/she to
accommodate himself and his wife, given the lack of a third-person
singular pronoun of common gender in English except the neutral
''one.''
====================
--he misses the point, which is explained by Buwei and/or Yuen-Ren
Chao on p. xxiv of the introduction:

"_Hse_:  my usual way of pronouncing _he_ and _she_ without
distinction when I speak English."

Thus, the indefinite third singular is motivated by the facts of
dialect-specific phonological neutralization.

(2) perhaps of more interest to linguists than foodie-consumers of
the Times Magazine food column is the fact that what is (allegedly)
the one recipe contributed by Professor Y.-R. Chao involves a
wonderful take-off on descriptive linguistics.  Dr. Buwei Chao
explains (p. 133):

"Stirred eggs may be said to be the most everyday dish made by
applying the most everyday method to the most everyday material...As
this is the only dish my husband cooks well, and he says that he
either cooks a dish well or not at all, I shall let him tell how it
is done."
...
and Prof. Chao begins the instructions for his six-egg recipe as follows:

"Either shell or unshell the eggs by knocking one against another in
any order." [footnote 1]

[fn. 1] "Since, when two eggs collide, only one of them will break,
it will be necessary to use a seventh egg with which to break the
sixth. If, as it may very well happen, the seventh egg breaks first
instead of the sixth, an expedient will be simply to use the seventh
one and put away the sixth. An alternate procedure is to delay your
numbering system and define that egg as the sixth egg which breaks
after the fifth egg."

and, at the end of the recipe...

"To test whether the cooking has been done properly, observe the
person served. If he [sic!] utters a voiced bilabial nasal consonant
with a slow falling intonation, it is good. If he utters the syllable
_yum_ in reduplicated form, it is very good." --Y. R. C.


=======
Wonder what the non-linguist readers of the cookbook must have thought.

larry


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Jun 15 17:24:58 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:24:58 -0400
Subject: peacenik
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.132458.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This 1963 quote is very useful.  OEDs and MW11 have 1965.  Third Barnhart
Dictionary of New English (1990) cites 1963.  At the time we were reading
BofAS on a regular basis.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Tue Jun 15 18:03:14 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:03:14 -0400
Subject: peacenik
In-Reply-To: <6D0A4730B029C545AC8DE97D7F22049D01219615@rdec-exch8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.140314.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The forthcoming Oxford Dictionary of American Political Slang has
"peacenik" slightly earlier:

1963 N.Y. Times Mag. May 19 p. 17: Peace groups bud (and wither) with
such frequency that even the experts can't keep track of them. They
come in all shapes and sizes--professional groups...religious groups,
demonstrators and nondemonstrators, sophisticated groups and peacenik
amateurs.

--
Grant Barrett

Assistant Editor, U.S. Dictionaries, Oxford University Press
Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang
Editor, "Hatchet Jobs and Hardball: The Oxford Dictionary of American
Political Slang" (2004)

Editor, Double-Tongued Word Wrester
http://www.doubletongued.org/

Webmaster, American Dialect Society
http://www.americandialect.org/


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 15 18:34:09 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:34:09 -0400
Subject: peacenik
In-Reply-To: <200406151803.i5FI3HN2010143@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.143409.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Grant Barrett wrote:

> The forthcoming Oxford Dictionary of American Political Slang has
> "peacenik" slightly earlier:

When is the ODAPS going to be published?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Tue Jun 15 20:05:45 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:05:45 -0400
Subject: peacenik
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0406151433090.24422-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.160545.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Official pub date September, but the real street date should be end of
July or early August.

Grant

On Jun 15, 2004, at 14:34, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>
> When is the ODAPS going to be published?


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun 15 23:20:06 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:20:06 -0400
Subject: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.192006.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

Dear Jim,

I just asked him, and he does not pronounce the h in heirloom.. On the other
hand he told me sodder means exactly what I thought it meant.

Then, of course, there is the old Brit and Aussie phrase "bless 'em all"
which the Brits would use as a euphemism for "sod 'em all" while we in the
US would use it as a euphemism for "fuck 'em all".

My guess is that my Aussie friends would use the word "fuck" rather than
"sod" but I do not know.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> In a message dated  Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:08:23 -0400,  Page Stephens
> <hpst at EARTHLINK.NET> writes:
> >
> >  It is difficult to generalize about all of the different pronunciations
in
> >  British English dialects but one which intrigues me is the way that an
> >  English friend and I differ in the consonants we do or do not
pronounce.
> >
> >  He always pronounces the h in herbs
>
> Does he also pronounce the "h" in "heirloom"?
>
>            - Jim Landau


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Jun 16 00:01:50 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:01:50 -0400
Subject: antedating of "roller coaster" 1884
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.200150.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

M-W and OED use 1888.

Most webpages about roller coasters say that the Coney Island one in 1884 was first.  I think the fellow even had a patent.  I'll check that out later.

But..........they forgot to name it "roller coaster" or at least to make sure the papers in the US gave them credit.

Instead, from 7 August, 1884  Frederick(MD) _Weekly News_  6/1-2   

(dateline Philadelphia, Pa. July 29, 1884 referring to Fairmount Park)

<<Additional signs tell them that this is the "Wonderful Roller Coaster.">>   

Just for good measure, the correspondent used the exact term again later in the article.  It cost a nickel to ride, covered 500 feet in 11 seconds, and was 28 ft. high at the tallest point.  And you came back to where you started.

Sam Clements


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 16 00:55:54 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:55:54 -0400
Subject: "too good a shooters" redux, for the masses
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.205554.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This time with a mass noun after the indefinite article rather than a
plural.  This was ESPN Baseball Tonight's commentator Harold Reynolds
last night commenting on the aborted pitching duel between the young
Cubs' ace Mark Prior and the old Astros' ace Roger Clemens:

"What a compliment to Roger Clemens, to be compared at 40 to a young
pitcher like Mark Prior--that's quite a stuff he's got."

And just in case we weren't sure he could actually use a mass noun
like "stuff" in this construction, he went on to say of someone else,
I forget who, that he had "not as good a stuff".

Larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 16 06:18:44 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 02:18:44 EDT
Subject: Romesco sauce (1980); Rasam, Kachumber; Chef Talk & Perpendiculars
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.021844.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Some food items of interest.
    
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PERPENDICULARS
  
   Someone at work told me that the catering trade calls some types of 
nibbles (that you eat while standing) as "perpendiculars."  I couldn't find much on 
it.
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------  
ROMESCO SAUCE
  
ROMESCO SAUCE--4,480 Google hits, 66 Google Groups hits
      
   "Romesco sauce" is featured in Wednesday's (today's) New York Times.  The 
OED, as usual, doesn't have it.  OED is working on "P," so maybe there will be 
hope soon.
   I haven't yet "hit the books" with this one, so the dating here is just a 
quick guide.
  
  
(NEW YORK TIMES)
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/16/dining/162CREX.html
Recipe: Romesco Sauce
Published: June 16, 2004

Time: 45 minutes
Extra virgin olive oil 
3  1/2-inch-thick slices day-old sourdough bread 
5 ancho chilies 
1 cup blanched almonds, toasted 
5 cloves garlic, peeled 
3 cups (after juices are drained) canned plum tomatoes 
Juice of 1 lemon 
 1/2 cup red wine vinegar 
2 tablespoons paprika 
Salt.   
  
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) (31 hits for "Romesco sauce")
    1.  Restaurants; A tale of two cafes: Spanish and French. Cafe San Martin 
Cafe Argenteuil 
Moira Hodgson. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 25, 
1980. p. C18 (1 page) :
   Parrillada, perfectly broiled lobster, scallops and striped bass, all 
slightly crispy but moist in the middle and garnished with mussels and clams, came 
with the traditional romesco sauce expertly made with paprika, pimiento, 
garlic and vinegar.
    
    2.  Read All About It!; Sifting Out the Best of This Year's Cookbooks 
COOKBOOKS COOKBOOKS Home Is Where the Books Are 
By Phyllis C. Richman. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, 
D.C.: Dec 15, 1982. p. E1 (3 pages) 
     
    3.  LAUREL'S KITCHEN
By Carol Flinders 1/2 teaspoon salt Special to The Washington Post. The 
Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jun 10, 1987. p. E3 (1 page) 
 
    
    4.  THE WASHINGTON POST INDEX
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jun 10, 1987. p. 
A2 (1 page) 
     
    5.  Where Some Will Go for the Gold, Many Will Go Out to Eat; Where Some 
Go for the Gold, Many Go Out to Eat 
By BRYAN MILLER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 13, 
1992. p. C1 (2 pages) 
First page:  Catalan cooking is among the most refined and inventive in 
Spain, rivaled only by that of the Basques. (...)  Among the dishes one encounters 
repeatedly are salt cod with romesco sauce, snails prepared various ways, 
spinach with pine nuts and raisins, squid casseroles, cod bunuelos (a lighter 
version of fritters), duck with pears, pa amb romaquet (bread rubbed with fresh 
tomato and doused with olive oil), and numerous variations on paella.
     
    6.  Restaurants; A rustic place where groups can share the Iberian 
institution of tapas, with rice pudding to boot. 
Bryan Miller. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 27, 
1992. p. C18 (1 page):
   The only letdown was the lifeless sauce.  Grilled salmon was well executed 
and presented with two sauces, a good aioli (garlic mayonnaise) and an anemic 
romesco sauce (a Catalan specialty made with olive oil, tomatoes, peppers and 
ground almonds).
     
    7.  Someone's In the Kitchen With . . . a Book; KITCHEN BOOKSHELF 
Someone's in the Kitchen With . . . a Book 
By NANCY HARMON JENKINS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: 
Dec 9, 1992. p. C1 (2 pages) 
     
    8.  Restaurants |; The latest in a gaggle of Park Avenue South bistros A 
neighborly setting in SoHo. 
Bryan Miller. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 9, 
1993. p. C20 (1 page) 
     
    9.  Restaurants; The energy and exotic flavors of Barcelona, but with a 
decided tilt toward New York. 
| Ruth Reichl. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 7, 
1994. p. C26 (1 page) 
     
    10. Flavor and Drama of Whole Roasted Fish
By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: 
Jul 24, 1994. p. WC12 (1 page)     
     
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
RASAM; KATCHUMBER/KACHUMBER
  
KATCHUMBER--82 Google hits, 3 Google Groups hits
KACHUMBER--1,280 Google hits, 48 Google Groups hits
(Neither is in OED)
RASAM + SOUP--3,830 Google hits, 140 Google Groups hits
("Rasam" is not in the OED.  The British once ruled India, so it makes sense 
that some words...never mind.)
  
   Today, I went to Baruch College after work (where I nearly collapsed into 
sleep) to volunteer for the Republican National Convention.  While at "Curry 
Hill," I tried Chennai Gardens, 129 East 27th Street (between Park & 
Lexington), "A southern Indian restaurant, totally vegetarian...and kosher too!"  It's 
so-so.  Not as good as the Curry Leaf a block away.
   There were only two salads:  "Garden Salad" and "Katchumber--chopped salad 
of mixed vegetables with a spicy vinegar & lemon dressing...3.95."
   There were four soups, but only one of interest:  "Rasam--a traditional 
spicy tamarind lentil soup from Chennai."
    
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
No hits for "kachumber" or "katchumber."
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("rasam" and "soup")
    1.  Laurel's Kitchen
By Carol Flinders. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: 
Aug 24, 1983. p. E20 (1 page) 
        
    2.  Brightening the Morning After: Count the Ways; Brightening Morning 
After: Count the Ways 
By NANCY HARMON JENKINS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: 
Jan 1, 1986. p. 29 (2 pages) 
    
    3.  South India's Regional Cuisines; Cuisines of India 
By JULIE SAHNI. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 21, 
1990. p. XX12 (2 pages) 
First page:  Vegetarian dishes, which originated in the Tanjore courts of 
Dravidian kings, are collectively known as South Indian vegetarian, or Tamil 
food.  Throughout the south, dishes like sambar, kotto and koyamboo (spicy 
vegetable and lentil stews), kari or thovaran (warm vegetable salads), rasam (soup) 
and pachadi (yogurt salad) are popular.
        
    4.  Borrowing a Page (and Recipes) From Cooks in Hot Climates
By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: 
Jun 22, 1994. p. C3 (1 page) :
   It covers sambars (thick soups), rasams (thin soups), poriyals (dry 
curries), snacks like idli and dosai, plus salads, seasonings, chutneys and other 
dishes from a vibrant cuisine rarely experienced outside India.  (...)  And it 
si certainly worth including the fragrant tomato rasam in the summer repertory.
  
    5.  For a Filling Dinner, Breakfast Dishes From India
Eric Asimov. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 5, 1997. 
p. F13 (1 page) :
   Vada, crisp, spicy doughnuts made with lentil flour, made a nice 
counterpoint to the iddly.  They also come with rasam ($4.95) and sambar ($3.95).
(At Pongal, another Indian-kosher restaurant at 110 Lexington Avenue, near 
East 27th Street--ed.)
  
    6.  Tastes of India: Expect a Surprise Instead of a Curry
Eric Asimov. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 9, 1999. 
p. F8 (1 page) :
   Smoked tomato rasam, another appetizer, is a wonderfully bright broth that 
emphasizes the fruitiness of tomatoes, enhanced by tamarind, cumin and 
muswtard seeds, with a hot chili counterpoint that brings it all together.
     
    7.  Piquant Fare For Queens Palates; Dimple Serves Tangy Spices of South 
India; Shanghai Tang Spotlights Soup Dumplings 
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 12, 1999. p. 854 (1 
page) 
 
  
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: Shabari Kumar (smk9 at columbia.edu)
Subject: Re: What is Rasam? 
View: Complete Thread (5 articles) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Date: 1995-02-20 11:16:39 PST 
    
a soup is something that is eaten by itself.  it is true that rasam can be 
drunk out of a tumbler, but it is generally eaten on rice, after the sambar 
course and before the yoghurt course.  some soups are thick and some are thin, 
ditto sauces, so consistency is not a good indicator.  
  
i do feel very strongly about this issue b/c i am SICK of going to indian 
restaurnants and seeing rasam soup on the menu, which is then served in a bowl 
with a spoon.  i suspect that is what the original rasam poster and wife had in 
mind.
  
spicy pulse-based soup if you prefer. 
 
rasam is more sauce than soup, i reiterate.  
  
mina
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
HEAVEN'S BEEF
  
http://www.rainrestaurant.com/menus.htm
  
(GOOGLE)
Rain - East/West
... Chili Sauce. (Pla Murk Krob) $9.50 > Shrimp & Pork Potstickers. (Moo
Goong Gyoza) $9.25 > Heaven's Beef, Siracha Sauce. (Nuar Sawan ... 
www.rainrestaurant.com/menus.htm - 24k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
   I broke down and decided to finally have a really good meal at RAIN (Third 
Avenue and East 62nd Street) last night.  It's a great pan-Asian place that's 
been around since 1995.
   "Heaven's Beef" intrigued me.  Did they get it from BURGER HEAVEN?  Wasn't 
Jesus a vegetarian?
   Alas, it's the only Google hit for this dish.
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CHEF TALK
  
   Some OUP-type person sent along this:
  
(GOOGLE)
http://kitschnzinc.blogspot.com/2004/06/chef-speak.html
Chef Speak 

Every business has it’s patois, it’s own rich vocabulary and the commercial 
kitchen is no exception. Sometimes it seems that chefs best express themselves 
in good old Anglo Saxon terms but in the interests of delicacy I’ll omit 
every expletive known to man and chef and explore some more interesting 
euphemisms.
FOH or front of house is where we normally find you guys, the customers, 
officially known as covers but more often referred to as punters or happy campers. 
Behind those doors which are constantly and noisily being kicked open and 
closed by the waitrons ( politically correct terminology used only by Human 
Resources people ) lies the BOH, Back of House or heart of the operation.
Here you’ll maybe find some cowboy chefs who would be more at home on the 
range cooking baked beans and stews or even shoemakers, lazy slackers whose taste 
is in their feet. The senior chef making his way through with hot food on an 
oven tray screams “Mind yer backs !” which means stay absolutely still as he 
gets ready to send the funny food which is the vegetarian, kosher, halaal, 
special request meals. Sometimes a steak is returned as being too bloody – “Kill 
it!” is the terse instruction to the griller. 
Other changes to the normal cooking routine as dictated by circumstances such 
as being in the sh*t may require the food item to be nuked in the yo-yo 
(microwaved) or zapped in the Chinese microwave, the deep fat fryer. After service 
the chef may be complimented by the organizer as having presented the food 
beautifully as she had seen it originally in that colour glossy magazine while he 
reflects to himself Bloody Hollywood on a plate and of course that’s exactly 
what it is in the catering game, it’s Hollywood and you’re only as good as 
your last movie. 


From webmaster at ZWOACHZIG.DE  Wed Jun 16 11:34:20 2004
From: webmaster at ZWOACHZIG.DE (zwoachzig.de - Der Webmaster)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:34:20 +0200
Subject: Different Language?
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.133420.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Members

I am going to
translate my site http://www.zwoachzig.de (it's a classic car enthusiast site) into several languages. After finishing the upload and calling the search engines I wondered, why a lot of british user visit my site quite frequently, but even no american user. What could the reason be?
I searched for hints to me, what the different is between american english and british english. During this search I found your site, but in the end I found no answer. May you help me?
Best regards
Bernd


From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 16 13:50:25 2004
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 09:50:25 -0400
Subject: Different Language?
In-Reply-To: <eFbVwply07YvHhyauv45t1ABcHTZNIczQA56nZXUPUK@akmail>
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.095025.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Dear Bernd,

The problem is cultural, not linguistic. Americans don't give a hoot
for classic cars these days; only SUVs.

dInIs



>Dear Members
>
>I am going to
>translate my site http://www.zwoachzig.de (it's a classic car
>enthusiast site) into several languages. After finishing the upload
>and calling the search engines I wondered, why a lot of british user
>visit my site quite frequently, but even no american user. What
>could the reason be?
>I searched for hints to me, what the different is between american
>english and british english. During this search I found your site,
>but in the end I found no answer. May you help me?
>Best regards
>Bernd


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Jun 16 14:11:04 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:11:04 -0400
Subject: Different Language?
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.101104.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dennis, you're probably right that the issue may be cultural.  With all
due respect for your linguistic expertise, you are wrong in your opinion
that Americans do not care a hoot for classic cars.  The reason may be
that Americans with this interest are disinterested in the Web.  They are
probably in their garages working on their cars if they are not out on the
road showing them off.

Love you Dennis, but you're off on this call.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Wed Jun 16 14:38:46 2004
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:38:46 -0400
Subject: OT - Classic Cars was "different language?"
In-Reply-To: <a06020400bcf600669c7e@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.103846.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Maybe the problem is the site seems to be all Benzs. Americans would be
more interested, seems to me at least, if the site threw in a '58 Plymouth
Fury or a '65 'Stang.

(And give me a '58 Chevy Impala (hardtop) over an SUV any day.)



At 09:50 AM 6/16/2004 -0400, you Dennis:
>>Dear Bernd,
>
>The problem is cultural, not linguistic. Americans don't give a hoot
>for classic cars these days; only SUVs.
>
>dInIs


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Jun 16 15:25:18 2004
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:25:18 -0700
Subject: Different Language?
In-Reply-To: <200406161411.i5GEB7Vn027159@mxe7.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.082518.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On the other hand, it could simply be because the site is devoted to particular models of Mercedes-Benz automobiles there is limited interest in the United States. It could be that these models are not widely considered as classic cars in the US (but *are* considered such in Britain). There is certainly a large number of US websites devoted to classic Benzs. Personally, when I think of a classic Mercedes it is from the 1950s or earlier or something extraordinary like the gull-wing.

allen


On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Barnhart wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Different Language?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dennis, you're probably right that the issue may be cultural.  With all
> due respect for your linguistic expertise, you are wrong in your opinion
> that Americans do not care a hoot for classic cars.  The reason may be
> that Americans with this interest are disinterested in the Web.  They are
> probably in their garages working on their cars if they are not out on the
> road showing them off.
>
> Love you Dennis, but you're off on this call.
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> barnhart at highlands.com
>


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Jun 16 15:35:06 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 11:35:06 -0400
Subject: "too good a shooters" redux, for the masses
In-Reply-To: <20040616040134.4C328228C1@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.113506.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry Horn writes:

        >>>
 "What a compliment to Roger Clemens, to be compared at 40 to a young
pitcher like Mark Prior--that's quite a stuff he's got."

And just in case we weren't sure he could actually use a mass noun
like "stuff" in this construction, he went on to say of someone else,
I forget who, that he had "not as good a stuff".
        <<<

Ow! Ow! Ow! Ow! Ow!

-- Mark Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Jun 16 15:51:05 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 11:51:05 -0400
Subject: Different Language?
In-Reply-To: <eFbVwply07YvHhyauv45t1ABcHTZNIczQA56nZXUPUK@akmail>
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.115105.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Am I the only cynic who thought this was just an attempt to draw web
site traffic from people on this list and not a valid language-related
question?

My response would be:

It's not much linked to by other web sites. Where it is linked or
listed in site directories, it's found on German-language web sites.
Therefore, it will rarely, if ever, come up anywhere near the top on an
English-language Google search, since Google rankings are based upon a
network of trust: the more people that link to your site, the higher
your site shows up in the results. Google is the dominant American
search tool of choice, so you need to take whatever legitimate steps
you can to increase your results there.

Make sure as many sites as possible link to yours. I would steer clear
of "top sites" listings, which are stupid scams, pimples on the hairy
butt of the Internet, and usually discounted by Google in its
algorithm. Don't spam. Just politely ask other web admins to link to
your site. Make sure it's listed in Google, Excite, Yahoo, etc. Make
sure it is listed in the English-language web directories. Make sure it
is linked to from English-language sites which have similar interests
to yours. Make sure you submit the link to the English-language page,
not to the main German-language page.

There is relatively little indexable text on the first English page.
You need to have clear descriptions of what the site is about, using
words you think people might be searching for.  Add more descriptive
text. Right away I would say you need the words "Mercedes" and/or
"Benz" before every model number, and anywhere else. Those model
numbers are not enough for people to search on. So when you write
"W116" you should change it to "Mercedes W116" or "Mercedes-Benz W116."
Also, consider beefing up your English text. The more there is, the
more times it will come up in a web search.

Cheers,

Grant

On Jun 16, 2004, at 07:34, zwoachzig.de - Der Webmaster wrote:

> Dear Members
>
> I am going to
> translate my site http://www.zwoachzig.de (it's a classic car
> enthusiast site) into several languages. After finishing the upload
> and calling the search engines I wondered, why a lot of british user
> visit my site quite frequently, but even no american user. What could
> the reason be?
> I searched for hints to me, what the different is between american
> english and british english. During this search I found your site, but
> in the end I found no answer. May you help me?
> Best regards
> Bernd
>
>


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 16 17:39:24 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:39:24 -0700
Subject: figurative masturbation, once again
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.103924.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

back in september 2002 i took part in a discussion here of figurative
uses of "masturbation", including "mental masturbation".  here's a
recent cite, complete with the diminisher "just":

Harper's Magazine, July 2004, "The Boys in the Bubble" (pp. 28-31), an
excerpt from "a memo sent in March by a Pentagon adviser posted in
Iraq.  The names of the memo's author and recipient were redacted,
along with those of other officials..." (p. 28).  On p. 31 we find:

   "Our failure to promote accountability has hurt us.  The interim
constitution is just an exercise in CPA masturbation if it is not
enforced."

[i assume that someone is already on the trail of
"redacted"/"redaction" for this sort of editing by blacking or cutting
out material.]

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 16 18:23:26 2004
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:23:26 -0400
Subject: Different Language?
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e01b2ee2a3b9aca005e801558.1b2ee5f@chain.highlands.com>
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.142326.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Of course you love me; I said nothing about your use of "disinterested."

dInIs

PS: I love it when I say I said nothing.


>Dennis, you're probably right that the issue may be cultural.  With all
>due respect for your linguistic expertise, you are wrong in your opinion
>that Americans do not care a hoot for classic cars.  The reason may be
>that Americans with this interest are disinterested in the Web.  They are
>probably in their garages working on their cars if they are not out on the
>road showing them off.
>
>Love you Dennis, but you're off on this call.
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>barnhart at highlands.com


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Jun 16 19:51:50 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:51:50 -0500
Subject: figurative masturbation, once again
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.145150.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Magicians use "masturbation" as a demeaning term about magic that is created

and practiced for its own sake, not for the benefit of spectators.  It may
include very fancy sleights or flourishes, which draw attention to
themselves
instead of accomplishing a secret effect.

>From the Genii Forum:
http://geniimagazine.com/forum/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000
273#000006
"as so many magicians in magic competitions create and perform magic to
perform
 just for themselves and not in the real world for non-magician audiences. I
know
 several magi that refer to this as "magical masturbation" "

Taking a sly dig at such magic, Lee Asher even has a small booklet entitled
"Hand Jobs":
http://www.leeasher.com/products_handjobs.htm


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Jun 16 20:44:50 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:44:50 -0500
Subject: more magical masturbation
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.154450.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From the Electronic Grymoire private magician's mailing list:

Jack Shea posted in EG #1133
"What about the audience? Or are we only interested in our magical
masturbation?"


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Jun 17 00:51:23 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:51:23 -0400
Subject: down street
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.205123.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For those interested in speech habits of the Hudson Valley folk, I was at
the Dutchess Community College Library this evening.  The lady (retired)
with whom I was chatting made a remark about "downstreet Rhinebeck," which
is just north of Poughkeepsie across the Hudson from Kingston and New
Paltz.  When I pressed her on this she was uncertain whether she learned
while growing up in Rhinebeck or while attending school in Columbia County
near Albany.  Most of the references in the dialect dictionaries say
"northeastern NY."  This is the second individual local to the lower
Hudson Valley whom I have heard use this.  The other was a lady (about
55-60) who lived in Cold Spring, N.Y., about an hour north of New York
City on the commuter train.  I suspect that this expression was probably
much more widespread throughout the Hudson Valley.  I wonder if it has
Dutch roots.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 17 02:05:35 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 22:05:35 -0400
Subject: More food-based slang
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.220535.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The recent mention re the use of food in slang terms reminds of a
couple of old slang terms used by black soldiers in the '50's and '60's
in (West) Germany, to wit:

Cheeseburger: a white American, especially a white G.I.

Hamburger: a black American, especially a black G.I.

The point of departure was the fact that, in olden times, as we said,
back in the day, the cheeseburger was considered to be a culinary
abomination peculiar to white America. Hence, it follows, as the night
follows the day, that we would  refer to ourselves as "hamburgers,"
under the assumption that the hamburger was the "opposite" of the
cheeseburger.

Cf. also the use of "kraut," based on sauerkraut, as a slang term for a
German used by white G.I.'s.

-Wilson Gray


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 17 02:56:10 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 22:56:10 -0400
Subject: peacenik
In-Reply-To: <200406152005.i5FK5mfX010161@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.225610.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Grant Barrett wrote:

> Official pub date September, but the real street date should be end of
> July or early August.

I'm looking forward to it.

Fred


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 17 04:20:23 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 00:20:23 EDT
Subject: De Met's Turtles (1940); "Chicken a la king" revisited
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.002023.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DE MET'S TURTLES

   It's earliest in the Chicago Tribune.  I don't know if DARE is interested
in "turtle."  See the "turtle candy" discussion in the ADS-L archives.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("DeMet" and "turtles")
    Display Ad 5 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 19, 1940. p. 5 (1 page)
:
_Have You Tasted_
_PECAN TURTLES?_
_Just One of the 90 Taste-Thrills in This_
_Famous De Met's Week-End Special_
De Met's delicious Pecan Turtles!  Here is a candy treat that words simply
can't describe!  On top are a vveritable feast of fresh, whole Louisiana Pecans.
 Inside is rich, full cream caramel that's half-dipped in the finest
chocolate and topped with chocolate rice.  You'll find Pecan Turtles in our 90-piece
assorted week-end special now being featured at all De Met's stores.
   De Met's
312 Madison St. Chicago
22 Stores in Chicago--12 Handy Loop Stores

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"CHICKEN A LA KING" REVISITED

   I discussed "chicken a la king" here a long time ago.  The "William King,
of Philadelphia" item was re-printed in COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY.  There's no
reason for the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK to get this wrong,
but one never knows.
   The usual city for "chicken a la king" myths is New York, but here's one
for Chicago.  Below this, see the 1915 ProQuest Chicago Tribune citation that
gets it right.


   June 1957, THE EPICUREAN MONTHLY, pg. 23, col. 2:
A little information about popular dishes has been sent by ALFRED FRIES,
President of the International Association of Cooks of Chicago.

   Contrary to its royal title, _CHICKEN A LA KING_, is a typical
American-style dish which originated in Chicago.  Its place of birth and circumstances of
its preparation were related to me by an old timer of our culinary profession
in 1907, at the time of my arrival in this great middle west metropolis.
   Chicken a la King was nothing new to me even then, because it featured on
the menus of all the three houses where I worked--the Manhattan Hotel on 42nd
St. and Madison Ave., The Breslin on 28th and Broadway, and my last job in New
York City, the Netherland Hotel, located at 59th St. and Fifth Ave.
   Wells St. in Chicago, the fourth block west of famous State St. and
running parallel with it, was also known as Fifth Ave., and north of the Chicago
river it was dubbed unofficially "Swiss Boulevard."  At the time of my arrival in
1907 the downtown section of Wells St. housed some big printing plants which
operated day and night.
   A popular restaurant on Wells, known as King's place, was run by the King
Family.  They served food until late at night in order to accommodate the
night-shift printers.  One cold night, during the end of the nineteenth century,
some sixty years ago, business had been good and all warm dishes had been sold
out.  Just before closing time a group of newspaper workers came in and
clamoured for hot food.  Mrs. King, or was it one of the daughters, rushed into the
kitchen, but the last cook had gone home and all she could find was some cold,
boiled chickens and a pot of cream sauce standing on the side to cool off.
   (So she invented Cobb Salad?  Buffalo wings?--ed.)
   Without hesitating the lady quickly cut the breasts in medium sized
chunks, reheated the cream sauce and dumped the chicken meat into it.  Toast was
made quickly on the gas broiler and one-two-three, a steaming hot pot of chicken
in cream sauce with fresh, warm toast was served to the hungry members of the
fourth estate.
   On the following days and nights the same and other guests asked for the
new dish--chicken in cream sauce again, and so it became a regular feature on
the simple menu, containing mostly inexpensive dishes.
   Like everything else in the world this dish underwent an evolution; other
restaurateurs imitated it and for want of a name it was termed Chicken a la
King.  Some improvements, or should we say alterations occurred; sliced fresh
mushrooms, then sliced green and red peppers were added by some progressive
culinary artist.  Finally Chicken a la King joined high society by making its
appearance on the menus of exclusive dining places in ritzy hotels.  Of course
here this originally plain dish underwent a metamorphosis under the direction of
chef members of the cuisine classique. (...)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
   Washington Post  Sunday, March 14, 1915 Washington, District Of Columbia

...Ledger. J The inventor of CHICKEN A lA KING is deAd. If MAcAdAm
is.....Robert Peel by the And why should not WILLIAM KING, of PhilAdelphiA, go down..



(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) "("William King" and "chicken a la
king"--only these two early hits)
    1.  A NAME ON ALL MEN'S TONGUES
[Philadelphia Ledger.]. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.:
Mar 14, 1915. p. M4 (1 page)

    2.  THE TRIBUNE COOK BOOK; Chicken a la King.
JANE EDDINGTON. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 7,
1915. p. 14 (1 page) :
   PHILADELPHIA as an adjective is to be found in front of a good many of the
titles to recipes besides ice cream and scrapple, and there are others who
should wear it in order to explain their true origin.
   There is more than one story afloat about the origin of the true
Philadelphia dish, chicken a la king, but I believe I have the authentic since two
widely different authorities have confirmed one the other.  In the June number of
an English cookery journal is the following paragraph:
   "The death of Mr. William King, a well known chef in Philadelphia, is much
regretted in the states, for he was the originator of the dish "chicken a la
king"--the story being that he prepared a dish twenty years ago to please a
customer, who was delighted with it that he gave it the title which has become
known throughout the U. S. A."
   The son of this customer has told me how his father, an epicure, was
accustomed to going into the best known of the hotels in Philadelphia, the one
which has had a national reputation for a quarter of a centruy now, for a meal,
and how his arrival when reported in the kitchen put the cooks on their mettle,
with the result that one day this famous dish was prepared and the great man
said: "Let it be called after the cook, chicken a la king!" (...)


(I had first found the William King credit in the NEW YORK TRIBUNE.  Now it's
here in 1915 in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, and in the PHILADELPHIA
LEDGER/WASHINGTON POST as well.  That's a good roundup of early agreement...The Chicago story
above reads well, but the TRIBUNE COOK BOOK plainly declares it a
_Philadelphia_ dish--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 17 05:20:25 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:20:25 EDT
Subject: "Sunlight is the best disinfectant" (1903)
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.012025.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SUNLIGHT IS THE BEST DISINFECTANT--1,620 Google hits, 626 Google Groups hits
SUNSHINE IS THE BEST DISINFECTANT--550 Google hits, 349 Google Groups hits
SUNLIGHT IS THE BEST OF DISINFECTANTS--67 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit
SUNSHINE IS THE BEST OF DISINFECTANTS--18 Google hits, 6 Google Groups hits

   Some politician brought up this phrase again (about torture in Iraq).  Jon
Stewart lampooned it on THE DAILY SHOW last night (repeat tonight at 7 p.m.).
   Maybe some as-yet-unpublished tomes from Yale and Oxford will have it?
   Brandeis said it.  Perhaps he coined it in its media/political context,
but the phrase was previously used in an advertisement.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: William C Waterhouse (wcw at math.psu.edu)
Subject: Re: Who said "Sunshine is the best disinfectant"?
Newsgroups: alt.quotations
Date: 1999/01/21

In article <36A6A5AD.97B4B027 at homeXXX.net>,"Steve Conover, Sr." <
scsr at homeXXX.net> writes:
> I believe one of the USA's past Supreme Court Justices said
> "Sunshine is the best disinfectant."  Can anybody remember which
> one?

 I didn't remember, but I was able to look it up:

"Publicity is justly commended as a remedy of social and
inductrial diseases.  Sunlight is said to be the best of
disinfectants; electric light the most efficient policeman."
-- L. Brandeis, _Other People's Money_ (1933 edition, p. 62)

William C. Waterhouse
Penn State


   The AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS, pg. 303, has
"LOUIS D. BRANDEIS, _What Publicity Can Do_, in _Harper's Weekly_, Dec. 20, 1913."


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("best disinfectant")
    PLATT'S CHLORIDES, THE BEST DISINFECTANT
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 21, 1901. p.
15 (1 page) :
chemically destroys disease breeding matter.
(This tiny ad appeared frequently at the bottom of news stories in many
newspapers--ed.)

     The Power of Sunlight.; THE USE OF LIGHT IN CURING DISEASE.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 26, 1903. p. 4 (1
page) :
   THE best disinfectant of all is sunlight.  It destroys by its very
brightness all sorts of germs and at same time helps the growth of plants and animal
life.
(Ad for the "Common Sense Medical Adviser"--ed.)

    THE POWER OF SUNLIGHT
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Dec 2, 1904. p. 3 (1 page)

(Same as above--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 17 06:24:00 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 02:24:00 EDT
Subject: "Eat Butter First" proverb (1960); Girl comes out of cake (1955)
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.022400.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"EAT BUTTER FIRST" PROVERB
  
   I was looking for "Black Forest Cake" when I spotted these two interesting 
items.  I don't know what Fred Shapiro has for this butter proverb.  Isn't 
butter bad for you?
   From WINE AND FOOD, No. 106 Summer 1960, "BUTTER--FOOD FOR CENTENARIANS" 
by Arthur Gaunt, pg. 109:
  
 THE health-giving properties of butter are aptly expressed by an old Danish 
proverb which goes:
  
   Eat butter first, and eat it last,
   And live till a hundred years are past.
  
  
(GOOGLE) (10 hits)
Quotes about food - Firsts
... old Spanish saying. “Eat butter first, and eat it last, and live
till a hundred years be past.” Old Dutch proverb. “The vine ... 
www.foodreference.com/html/q-firsts.html - 27k - Cached - Similar pages 
 
> Food Quotes: Butter
> ... BUTTER. "Eat butter first, and eat it last, and live till a hundred
> years be past." Old Dutch proverb. Butter is "...the most delicate ... 
> www.foodreference.com/html/qbutter.html - 24k - Cached - Similar pages
> [ More results from www.foodreference.com ] 
> 
> 

Soup Basics: FLAVORING AGENTS
... pot just before serving. "Eat butter first and eat it last, And live
till a hundred years be passed."--Dutch proverb. One of the ... 
www.soupsong.com/bflavor.html - 17k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
The BUTTER BOARD - History of Butter
How Butter is Made. “Eat butter first and eat it last and live
till a hundred years be past” - Old Dutch proverb It’s easy ... 
www.naturalandtasty.co.uk/history_butter.htm - 18k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
The Low Carb Luxury Online Magazine: Volume V / Number 02: January ...
... Eat butter first, and eat it last, and live till a hundred years be 
past." ––
Old Dutch proverb For many years we were told to use margarine in cooking. 
... 
www.lowcarbluxury.com/newsletter/ lclnewsvol05-no02-pg4.html - 19k - Cached - 
Similar pages 
  
butter
... stirring into the pot just before serving. "Eat butter first and eat
it last ... http://www.butterinstitute.org/, American Butter ... 
results.veoda.com/results/butter.html - 29k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
Welcome to Tout Beurre Bakery where everything is All Butter!
Welcome to Tout Beurre Bakery where everything is All Butter! "Eat butter 
first,
and eat it last, and live till 100 years be past." [Dutch Proverb]. ... 
www.toutbeurre.com/ - 17k - Jun 15, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages 
  
Butter beans News Articles
... beans to boot ... Quote of the week: Eat butter first, and eat it
last, and live till a ... 'Shroom mates Sep 3, 2003 ... I add ... 
www.synabu.com/files/shopeasier_Butter_beans.html - 33k - Supplemental Result 
- Cached - Similar pages 
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
OT:  GIRL COMES OUT OF CAKE
  
   This is my favorite "dish," but it's never recorded in a single cookbook 
anywhere.  I spotted a nice cartoon in CULINARY REVIEW: THE CHEFS' NATIONAL 
MAGAZINE, March 1955, pg. 5, col. 3:
  
(Two chefs are talking.  A blonde bombshell is being put in a large pot--ed.)
  
"NO. NO. NO. ALPHONSE!  SHE GOES IN _AFTER_ YOU BAKE THE CAKE!"


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 17 12:55:56 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 08:55:56 -0400
Subject: "Call-and-response" slang
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.085556.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Back in the middle 'Fifties, there were some slang expressions that
consisted of two parts: one person said one part and the other person
replied with the other part. The calls continue, more or less, to be
used today, but, for some reason, the responses have been lost. A
couple of examples are:

Call: Hang loose!
Response: Swing easy!

Call: How are they (understood to refer to one's testicles) hanging?
Response I: Side by side, for power!
Response II: One behind the other, for speed!

I haven't tried to keep count, but, it seems to me, "How's _it_
hanging?" is, today,
heard _far_ more often than what is, for me, the original version.

-Wilson Gray


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 17 15:59:46 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:59:46 -0400
Subject: terms of endearment (Colorado-style)
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.115946.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Unless I've missed it, nobody here has brought up a controversy over
usage that may bring down the president of the University of
Colorado.  Here's one take, courtesy of http://www.rotten.com/news/

"Cunt" defended by university president
KUSA-TV 9 Denver | Submitted by: Jonny Plasma
"In a sworn statement to be made public Tuesday, University of
Colorado President Elizabeth Hoffman said a four-letter word used
toward women can sometimes be used as a 'term of endearment.' The
comment comes from Hoffman's latest sworn testimony in connection
with a federal lawsuit against the university... In the deposition,
Hoffman was asked whether the "c-word" is 'filthy and vile.' She said
she knows the word is a swear word, but 'It is all in the context of
what - of how it is used and when it is used.' She was asked, 'Can
you indicate any polite context in which that word would be used?'
Hoffman answered, 'Yes, I've actually heard it used as a term of
endearment.'"
========
(See also http://hotbuttereddeath.ubersportingpundit.com/ for more on
the discussion.)

In other reports on this that I've heard on the radio and television
but can't locate electronically at the moment, President Hoffman
defended her views by citing Chaucer (she's a medieval historian by
training), which makes this an interesting usage-based analogue of
the etymologically fallacy:  "cunt" was used as a term of endearment
700 years ago, so it's *really* a term of endearment.  (I'm not here
presupposing either that she's right about its use by Chaucer or
wrong about its use by football players toward their female fellow
students now, just noting the tenor of her argument.)

Larry

P.S.  Note also that according to that hotbuttereddeath report,
"Women's groups and a member of the Board of Regents said they were
appalled by what they called Hoffman's lack of insensitivity."
Seems to me she was as insensitivity as one might reasonably expect.


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Thu Jun 17 17:22:47 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:22:47 +0100
Subject: terms of endearment (Colorado-style)
In-Reply-To: <E1BazLn-00001p-00@rinka.central.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.182247.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:59 am -0400 Laurence Horn
<laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:

> In other reports on this that I've heard on the radio and television
> but can't locate electronically at the moment, President Hoffman
> defended her views by citing Chaucer (she's a medieval historian by
> training), which makes this an interesting usage-based analogue of
> the etymologically fallacy:  "cunt" was used as a term of endearment
> 700 years ago, so it's *really* a term of endearment.  (I'm not here
> presupposing either that she's right about its use by Chaucer or
> wrong about its use by football players toward their female fellow
> students now, just noting the tenor of her argument.)

I wonder whether President Hoffman's views on the word might have been
shaped by time in England.  Before I left the US, it was the c-word--the
one word I couldn't bring my self to say even in metalinguistic contexts.
Now I'm pretty desensitised to it.

But the thing is, even here, the people who use it in less nasty ways are
generally men, and they generally use it to refer to men.  Calling a man a
'cunt' is a pretty strong insult, but like many insults, it can get turned
around to be more a sort of 'left-handed solidarity marker', like the use
of 'nigga' or 'faggot' or 'dyke' within other communities.  But that just
doesn't work when it's a man saying it to a woman, just like it's not cute
when a straight man  (without a whole  lot of interpersonal positive
history and positive context!) calls a lesbian 'dyke'.

(No offense intended to left handers!)

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Thu Jun 17 19:52:09 2004
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:52:09 -0500
Subject: terms of endearment (Colorado-style)
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.145209.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Back in the '50's at the U of Chicago, I knew a couple who had an
interesting pact.  Each added a dollar to the vacation fund,if he used the
word Cunt as a pejoritive and she did the same if she used Prick in the same
way.  They got to deduct a dollar when these were used in a romantic manner.


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Jun 17 22:42:07 2004
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:42:07 -0500
Subject: terms of endearment (Colorado-style)
In-Reply-To: <p04320403bcf76ccfd753@[130.132.166.233]>
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.174207.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In other reports on this that I've heard on the radio and television
>but can't locate electronically at the moment, President Hoffman
>defended her views by citing Chaucer (she's a medieval historian by
>training), which makes this an interesting usage-based analogue of
>the etymologically fallacy:  "cunt" was used as a term of endearment
>700 years ago, so it's *really* a term of endearment.  (I'm not here
>presupposing either that she's right about its use by Chaucer or
>wrong about its use by football players toward their female fellow
>students now, just noting the tenor of her argument.)

This is being discussed on the Chaucer list, and no, she is not right
about its use by Chaucer.

Barbara


From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM  Thu Jun 17 23:01:47 2004
From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:01:47 -0400
Subject: terms of endearment (Colorado-style)
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.190147.0400.ABARAGONA@SPRYNET.COM>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:59 AM
Subject: terms of endearment (Colorado-style)


>
> In other reports on this that I've heard on the radio and television
> but can't locate electronically at the moment, President Hoffman
> defended her views by citing Chaucer (she's a medieval historian by
> training), which makes this an interesting usage-based analogue of
> the etymologically fallacy:  "cunt" was used as a term of endearment
> 700 years ago, so it's *really* a term of endearment.  (I'm not here
> presupposing either that she's right about its use by Chaucer or
> wrong about its use by football players toward their female fellow
> students now, just noting the tenor of her argument.)
>
> Larry

To be more fair to Hoffman than she probably deserves, the news reports I've
seen did not attribute the word history argument or the Chaucer reference to
Hoffman herself.  A spokesperson for her office, Michelle Ames, is the one
who gave the lame excuse that, as a medievalist, Hoffman was familiar with
the varied history of the word and Chaucer's use of it, but she may have
been saying that because Hoffman told her to.

In any case, Chaucer never uses the word "cunt," though he could have, since
it had come into English from Old Norse about 100 years before.  What he
does sometimes use to refer jokingly to the vagina is "queynte," which is
often glossed as meaning "female genitals," but is a euphemism, in fact
probably the adjective "quaint" made into a noun, and not actually related
to "cunt," despite the similarity of sound, which is part of the joke (cf.
"darn" for "damn" and "fudge" for "fuck").

In re: Lynne Murphy's message, I confess it took me a while, watching the
movie "Sexy Beast," to realize these men were really calling each other
"cunt," clearly insulting each other in the context, but taking it in stride
as part of the macho culture (cf. "pussy" in America).

None of this, of course, justifies Hoffman's absurd refusal to admit openly
that when the football player called his female teammate a "cunt," he was
deliberately being crude and insulting.  Forget about whether it might have
been used tenderly or even neutrally 700 years ago.  The fact that a couple
in Colorado today or at the University of Chicago in the 50s might use the
term for sexual arousal rather than insult (I can't imagine it as a real
term of endearment except as a crude joke) doesn't give her license to
rationalize away what she knows to be true about this particular instance.
It was a lawyerly thing to do in the worst sense, and it's a black eye for
academicians.  How many meanings of "cunt" can we balance on the head of a
pin?

Alan B.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Jun 17 23:15:06 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:15:06 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries: semi-final thoughts
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.191506.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

#1
I still suppose that the entry in Wessely's late 19th century Latin dictionary, "cunnus, cunt, strumpet" was a joke or act of sabotage.  If there were folks around about 1890 advocating translating Latin erotic poetry into the English vernacular, I don't suppose that they would make their manifesto a cheap, pocket-sized dictionary apparently aimed at schoolboys.
At Jesse's request, Fred looked up "irrumare" for us in the Yale copy and didn't find it.  If Wessely's dictionary had a policy to encourage the use of English vulgarity to translate Latin vulgarity, I would expect it to appear at the words "mentula' and "stercus", which lend themselves to the translations "prick" and "shit".  I have not found my copy of this dictionary yet, and so cannot check this matter myself.

I wonder whether the Latin readers used by the students Wessely's dictionary seems to have been aimed at would have included the erotic poems that appear
in present day school anthologies.  If they didn't, then there might not be entries for those two words at all, which would support the joke/sabotage idea.

I am posting simultaneously with this message a tidbit, under the heading "fudge", giving an instance of printing-house sabotage.

#2
It seems from HDAS that Wessely's dictionary may be the earliest printed apperance of the word "cunt" in America.  HDAS has 1748, in what I believe to be a manuscript not published until recent decades -- and at that, "cunt" is represented as "****"; 1778, from what seems a recent collection of Revolutionary War songs (where it is represented as "c---") -- I wonder whther the collection is taking this song from a printed 18th C broadside or from a manuscript; 1888, from a pornographic book; and 1919, from a diary entry by Theodore Dreiser.  If the two 18th C citations are in fact from manuscripts, and if Wessely's dictionary was published in the early or mid 1880s, before the 1888 source, which might be the case, it would be the earliest.  (Those naughty Anglo-Saxons were using it as early as ca. 1230.)  If any of the lexicographers among us (Jesse & Jonathon particularly) are inclined to use this citation, I would make an attempt to establish a date of publication.
It does not appear to have been advertised much less reviewed in the NYTimes, LATimes or WashPost.  I would inquire of the Yale and Harvard libraries whether there is anything in their cataloguing records that would suggest when their copies were catalogued.  Their shelf-list cards might carry a date of cataloguing; many libraries at one time gave books a sequential accession number, and it might be possible to say what year or range of years the accession number suggests.   Perhaps there would be other places to look for advertisements, too.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Jun 17 23:15:12 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:15:12 -0400
Subject: fudge
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.191512.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

HDAS has "fudge" (= nonsense) from 1814 in an American source, and from 1766 in England.  This is an antedating by 7 years, for America.
   Launched here on the 17th inst, from the yard of Messrs. A. & M. Brown, the beautiful and well built ship FUDGE.  ***
   New-York Gazette & General Advertiser, January 19, 1807, p. 2, col. 6;
   The person who on Sunday took the liberty of filling up the blank in a paragraph which lay on our desk for publication, is informed, that if we knew him, he should not escape public notice.  ***
   N-YG&GA, January 20, 1807, p. 3, col. 1;
   The gentleman who fudged us on Sunday last out of a name for a ship, has come forward, to prevent the innocent from being suspected, and made a satisfactory apology.  ***  N-YG&GA, January 21, 1807, p. 2, col. 6

With reference to the question of how the word "cunnus" and its meaning got into Wessely' Latin dictionary, this is an instance of sabotage to a printer's copy committed by someone from outside the shop.

GAT


George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 17 23:34:25 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:34:25 -0400
Subject: terms of endearment (Colorado-style)
In-Reply-To: <002401c454bf$127bb380$9fa1bc3f@vmi.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.193425.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:01 PM -0400 6/17/04, Alan Baragona wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:59 AM
>Subject: terms of endearment (Colorado-style)
>
>
>>
>>  In other reports on this that I've heard on the radio and television
>>  but can't locate electronically at the moment, President Hoffman
>>  defended her views by citing Chaucer (she's a medieval historian by
>>  training), which makes this an interesting usage-based analogue of
>  > the etymologically fallacy:

oops; just noticed I wrote this instead of the intended "etymological
fallacy", a concept and term going back at least to J. S. Mill
(probably not to Chaucer, though)

>  "cunt" was used as a term of endearment
>>  700 years ago, so it's *really* a term of endearment.  (I'm not here
>>  presupposing either that she's right about its use by Chaucer or
>>  wrong about its use by football players toward their female fellow
>>  students now, just noting the tenor of her argument.)
>>
>>  Larry
>
>To be more fair to Hoffman than she probably deserves, the news reports I've
>seen did not attribute the word history argument or the Chaucer reference to
>Hoffman herself.  A spokesperson for her office, Michelle Ames, is the one
>who gave the lame excuse that, as a medievalist, Hoffman was familiar with
>the varied history of the word and Chaucer's use of it, but she may have
>been saying that because Hoffman told her to.

True; that's consistent with what I heard too, now that you mention it

>
>In any case, Chaucer never uses the word "cunt," though he could have, since
>it had come into English from Old Norse about 100 years before.  What he
>does sometimes use to refer jokingly to the vagina is "queynte," which is
>often glossed as meaning "female genitals," but is a euphemism, in fact
>probably the adjective "quaint" made into a noun, and not actually related
>to "cunt," despite the similarity of sound, which is part of the joke (cf.
>"darn" for "damn" and "fudge" for "fuck").
>
>In re: Lynne Murphy's message, I confess it took me a while, watching the
>movie "Sexy Beast," to realize these men were really calling each other
>"cunt," clearly insulting each other in the context, but taking it in stride
>as part of the macho culture (cf. "pussy" in America).
>
>None of this, of course, justifies Hoffman's absurd refusal to admit openly
>that when the football player called his female teammate a "cunt," he was
>deliberately being crude and insulting.  Forget about whether it might have
>been used tenderly or even neutrally 700 years ago.  The fact that a couple
>in Colorado today or at the University of Chicago in the 50s might use the
>term for sexual arousal

or for friendly instruction: recall Mellors' pedantic use of "cunt"
(please excuse my faulty memory) in his explications to Lady
Chatterley

>rather than insult (I can't imagine it as a real
>term of endearment except as a crude joke) doesn't give her license to
>rationalize away what she knows to be true about this particular instance.
>It was a lawyerly thing to do in the worst sense, and it's a black eye for
>academicians.  How many meanings of "cunt" can we balance on the head of a
>pin?
>
Well, a black eye for one, anyway, but generally attributed (in the
reports I've been getting) not to the academician in her but to her
position as bureaucrat in charge of the Beast fed by big-time college
football.  This lawyerly move (which has been compared unfavorably to
Pres. Clinton debating what the meaning of "is" is) followed her
decision not to fire Gary Barnett, the football coach who
presided--unknowingly, he claims--over an incredible array of ethical
violations by recruiters and players.

larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun 18 01:08:02 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:08:02 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries: semi-final thoughts
In-Reply-To: <61ed8f61eac4.61eac461ed8f@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.210802.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My copy of the Wessely Handy Dictionary has no date but it looks old, like
1900-ish.

It has the c-word all right.

There is no entry for "mentula". No other 'dirty words' that I can find,
except maybe this one ... at least this seems odd: Latin "penis" has
English translation "man's yard" (I would have expected English "penis", I
guess).

-- Doug Wilson


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Jun 18 01:46:55 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:46:55 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries: semi-final thoughts
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.214655.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Using APS at Proquest, Wessely's dictionaries seem to turn up first about
1868.  That was his German one.

English-French shows up in 1870, English-Italian  and Spanish-English in
1871.

The first cite for the Latin-English Dic is 1892.  Doesn't mean it wasn't
published before then, only that it existed by that time.

The exact cite is advertising "Routledge's Pocket Dictionaries."  It lists
"Wessely's Spanish-English and English-Spanish" as well as the French,
German and Italian ones.

There is a "Latin-English and English-Latin" dictionary listed after those
four, and the price is the same(75 cents).  I can only assume that it was by
Wessely.  Of course, we don't know if "cunt" was in that 1892 edition.

Just trying to suggest that the item was available by at least 1892.

SC


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun 18 03:05:08 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 23:05:08 -0400
Subject: Duck Soup (1897)
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.230508.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From B. Popik:

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Other 12 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 23, 1897. p. 10 (1
page) :
    P. A. Brady, one of the more successful of retired bookmakers, and
formerly an owner of race horses, said: "It has now come to an issue where
every man
must show his colors.  I am out of the business and so this fight is duck soup
for me."

----------

Is there good reason to think the above exemplifies the familiar "duck
soup" = "something easy"?

It looks to me like "duck soup" should mean "something moot" or "something
of no interest" in this passage.

Here is yet another figurative "duck soup", from 1879:

----------

_Mountain Democrat_ (Placerville CA), 8 Nov. 1879: p. 4(?), col. 2:

<<HEROIC TREATMENT.-- In surgery and medicine the above title is given to
treatment which if it fails to cure is bound to kill the patient. In the
latter case it is liable to also make duck soup of the practitioner's
reputation.>>

----------

I suppose this "duck soup" means "something degraded or ruined".

Is there a common theme?

-- Doug Wilson


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Jun 18 04:16:07 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 00:16:07 -0400
Subject: Twice-baked potato(1923)-antedating nothing
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.001607.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just helping out Barry.

I would have guess that twice-baked potato was only from the 40's or 50's, even though it's so simple, it must have been something done even before 1900.

Anyhow, from 9 Oct. 1923    _Decatur(IL) Daily Review_  14/4

<<Twice-baked potatoes are a bit "different" and very good to serve with a light meal course.>>

There is a recipe following which describes the process just a we do them today. this one using grated cheese and paprika in addition to milk, salt, pepper.

SC


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Jun 18 11:34:26 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 07:34:26 -0400
Subject: "Call-and-response" slang
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.073426.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Wilson Gray <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET>

: Back in the middle 'Fifties, there were some slang expressions that
: consisted of two parts: one person said one part and the other person
: replied with the other part. The calls continue, more or less, to be
: used today, but, for some reason, the responses have been lost. A
: couple of examples are:

: Call: Hang loose!
: Response: Swing easy!

: Call: How are they (understood to refer to one's testicles) hanging?
: Response I: Side by side, for power!
: Response II: One behind the other, for speed!

: I haven't tried to keep count, but, it seems to me, "How's _it_
: hanging?" is, today, heard _far_ more often than what is, for me, the
: original version.

For me growing up (80s, Southern Maryland) i wasn't familiar with "How're
they hangin'?" I did, however, know that if someone said "How's it
hangin'?"--and if there were no school officials nearby--the only correct
response was a slightly drawn-out and emphatic "Long and low."

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Fri Jun 18 13:53:33 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:53:33 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries: semi-final thoughts
In-Reply-To: <61ed8f61eac4.61eac461ed8f@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.095333.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 17, 2004, at 19:15, George Thompson wrote:
>   If the two 18th C citations are in fact from manuscripts, and if
> Wessely's dictionary was published in the early or mid 1880s, before
> the 1888 source, which might be the case, it would be the earliest.
> (Those naughty Anglo-Saxons were using it as early as ca. 1230.)  If
> any of the lexicographers among us (Jesse & Jonathon particularly) are
> inclined to use this citation, I would make an attempt to establish a
> date of publication.

The HDAS project would be happy to have it.

Thanks,

Grant


--
Grant Barrett

Assistant Editor, U.S. Dictionaries, Oxford University Press
Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang
Editor, "Hatchet Jobs and Hardball: The Oxford Dictionary of American
Political Slang" (2004)

Editor, Double-Tongued Word Wrester
http://www.doubletongued.org/

Webmaster, American Dialect Society
http://www.americandialect.org/


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 18 14:06:55 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:06:55 -0400
Subject: "Call-and-response" slang
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.100655.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

It is so refreshing to see the use of "unprintable" words, jokes, etc. on
this list.

Most of you under 50 or so probably do not ever remember a time when even
scholarly journals would self censor themselves thus distorting the record.

Believe me that it was not that long ago that such prohibitions existed, and
that I lived through them.

If anyone is interested in a discussion of this problem they should look up
Gershon Legman's review article "'Unprintable ' Folklore: The Vance Randolph
Collection" In The Journal of American Folklore
The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 103, No. 409. (Jul. - Sep., 1990),
pp. 259-300.

I am putting up this citation just so that you will be able to evaluate your
sources since quite often I have met younger scholars who are not even aware
it even existed and thus are often too willing to accept  intentionally
corrupted texts at their face value.

When I was a young graduate student in anthropology quite often we would
pass jokes which we would never dare to publish even though we all knew
them. When I was doing my PhD research in Arkansas, Vance Randolph's
territory, I constantly heard such exressions as "As stiff as a preacher's
prick in a cow's cunt", but I would never have dreamed of publishing them.
Or how many of you know that one of the verses to the old fiddle tune
"Leather Breeches" includes the line, "standing up against the wall with her
cunt hanging out"?

I could give you a thousand of these but for the most part they do not
appear in the literature.

Most of them due to self censorship have disappeared from the record but if
you read folklore texts you quite often can reconstruct them from what
evidence is available.

Oh well. Enough of my rant but believe me when I tell you that Legman's
article is worth reading as a guide to the subject.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Bowie" <db.list at PMPKN.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 7:34 AM
Subject: Re: "Call-and-response" slang


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       David Bowie <db.list at PMPKN.NET>
> Subject:      Re: "Call-and-response" slang
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> From:    Wilson Gray <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET>
>
> : Back in the middle 'Fifties, there were some slang expressions that
> : consisted of two parts: one person said one part and the other person
> : replied with the other part. The calls continue, more or less, to be
> : used today, but, for some reason, the responses have been lost. A
> : couple of examples are:
>
> : Call: Hang loose!
> : Response: Swing easy!
>
> : Call: How are they (understood to refer to one's testicles) hanging?
> : Response I: Side by side, for power!
> : Response II: One behind the other, for speed!
>
> : I haven't tried to keep count, but, it seems to me, "How's _it_
> : hanging?" is, today, heard _far_ more often than what is, for me, the
> : original version.
>
> For me growing up (80s, Southern Maryland) i wasn't familiar with "How're
> they hangin'?" I did, however, know that if someone said "How's it
> hangin'?"--and if there were no school officials nearby--the only correct
> response was a slightly drawn-out and emphatic "Long and low."
>
> David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
>     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
>     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
>     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Fri Jun 18 14:35:16 2004
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:35:16 +0100
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries: semi-final thoughts
In-Reply-To: <E1BbJoK-0001AT-4f@julia.zen.co.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.153516.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:53:33 -0400, Grant Barrett
<gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Grant Barrett <gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG>
> Subject:      Re: dirty words in dictionaries: semi-final thoughts
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Jun 17, 2004, at 19:15, George Thompson wrote:
>>   If the two 18th C citations are in fact from manuscripts, and if
>> Wessely's dictionary was published in the early or mid 1880s, before
>> the 1888 source, which might be the case, it would be the earliest.
>> (Those naughty Anglo-Saxons were using it as early as ca. 1230.)  If
>> any of the lexicographers among us (Jesse & Jonathon particularly) are
>> inclined to use this citation, I would make an attempt to establish a
>> date of publication.
>
> The HDAS project would be happy to have it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Grant


May I add my order too and offer my thanks in advance.

In re positive uses of cunt (defined in 1788 by Francis Grose - not a man
for whom PC would have bulked very large - as 'a nasty name for a nasty
thing'), the nearest citations I can find are both defined as 'an
attractive woman'.

1974 (context early 1960s) Price _The Wanderers_ 119: Joey’s girl was a
royal skank [...] but Eugene’s was a real cunt.
1997-2000 College Slang Research Project (Cal. State Poly. Uni., Pomona)
[Internet] Cunt {offensive} (noun) A very good looking female.

And I recall, but cannot properly cite, an Irvine Welsh line, I think it's
in _Trainspotting_, where a male in the throes of copulation says to his
partner, 'Oh, you sweet cunt' - but this may, while undoubtedly positive,
be merely anatomical.

The more general, and I would suggest neutral rather than positive use of
cunt to mean a man (once the reference is to a woman, it becomes - other
than in the cites above - negative), is reasonably long established in the
UK. I have examples from the 1960s onwards.

Jonathon Green


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun 18 16:33:02 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 12:33:02 -0400
Subject: OT:  GIRL COMES OUT OF CAKE
In-Reply-To: <20040618040035.86F532286F@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.123302.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry wrote:

        >>>

   This is my favorite "dish," but it's never recorded in a single cookbook
anywhere.  I spotted a nice cartoon in CULINARY REVIEW: THE CHEFS' NATIONAL
MAGAZINE, March 1955, pg. 5, col. 3:

(Two chefs are talking.  A blonde bombshell is being put in a large
pot--ed.)

"NO. NO. NO. ALPHONSE!  SHE GOES IN _AFTER_ YOU BAKE THE CAKE!"
        <<<

What are those morons doing in the kitchen? You don't mix batter in a pot!

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 18 19:26:56 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:26:56 -0400
Subject: Page Stephens's "rant"
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.152656.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It is so refreshing to see the use of "unprintable" words, jokes, etc.
on
this list.

Most of you under 50 or so probably do not ever remember a time when
even
scholarly journals would self censor themselves thus distorting the
record.

Believe me that it was not that long ago that such prohibitions
existed, and
that I lived through them.

If anyone is interested in a discussion of this problem they should
look up
Gershon Legman's review article "'Unprintable ' Folklore: The Vance
Randolph
Collection" In The Journal of American Folklore
The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 103, No. 409. (Jul. - Sep.,
1990),
pp. 259-300.

I am putting up this citation just so that you will be able to evaluate
your
sources since quite often I have met younger scholars who are not even
aware
it even existed and thus are often too willing to accept  intentionally
corrupted texts at their face value.

When I was a young graduate student in anthropology quite often we would
pass jokes which we would never dare to publish even though we all knew
them. When I was doing my PhD research in Arkansas, Vance Randolph's
territory, I constantly heard such exressions as "As stiff as a
preacher's
prick in a cow's cunt", but I would never have dreamed of publishing
them.
Or how many of you know that one of the verses to the old fiddle tune
"Leather Breeches" includes the line, "standing up against the wall
with her
cunt hanging out"?

I could give you a thousand of these but for the most part they do not
appear in the literature.

Most of them due to self censorship have disappeared from the record
but if
you read folklore texts you quite often can reconstruct them from what
evidence is available.

Oh well. Enough of my rant but believe me when I tell you that Legman's
article is worth reading as a guide to the subject.

Page Stephens

I found Prof. Stephens's "rant" to be of sufficient general interest
that I thought I'd give it its own thread.

The whole point of this self-censorship was to protect the ears and
minds of women and children from spoken and printed "filth," I believe.
Of course, this was a totally fruitless endeavor. I learned "fuck" at
the age of six from a five-year-old neighbor boy. Naturally, neither
the neighbor boy nor I had any understanding, at that age, of what
"fucking" really was or why anyone would have any interest in doing it.
We understood only that it was something "bad" that parents knew
nothing about. Years later, when I was finally told the truth re human
reproduction... Well, talk about "shock and awe"! When I was in grad
school, I chided my otherwise lovely girl friend wrt her constant use
of "fuck" and "shit" in casual conversation. I asked, "Would you want
your mother to hear you talking like that?" Her reply: "Who do you
think I learned it from?"

I had no idea that Gershon Legman was a true scholar. I've been
familiar with his name and some of his work since the late 'Fifties or
so, when I was involved in the pursuit of independent research in the
field of pornography. [All right, so I was hanging out in dirty-book
stores. Let him who is without sin etc.]

-Wilson Gray


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun 18 19:53:02 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:53:02 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries: semi-final thoughts
In-Reply-To: <20040618040035.86F532286F@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.155302.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU> wrote:

        >>>
[...]
I am posting simultaneously with this message a tidbit, under the heading
"fudge", giving an instance of printing-house sabotage.
[...]
        <<<

At least you didn't use the old form "titbit".

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 19 00:30:00 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:30:00 EDT
Subject: Chess Pie (1866); OT: Restaurant Week in NYC
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.203000.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OT:  RESTAURANT WEEK IN NYC
  
   It's restaurant week in New York City--for the next _two_ weeks.  The 
"prix fixe" is at $20.12, to help NYC get the 2012 Olympics and to swindle another 
eight cents from the expected $20.04.
   If you're coming to NYC, e-mail me and we'll make a reservation.  I must 
caution that I am on the rebound from Jennifer Lopez.
  
(GOOGLE)
Summer Restaurant Week 2004 Summer Restaurant Week June 21-25 & June 28-July 
2. ... and three-course dinners for $30.12 to show support for New York’s Bid 
to host the 2012 Olympic Games ... 
www.nycvisit.com/content/index.cfm?pagePkey=241 - 31k - Cached - Similar 
pages
   
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------  
CHESS PIE
        
   "Chess Pie" should certainly be in the forthcoming OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA ON 
FOOD AND DRINK IN AMERICA.  I don't know what it has on "chess pie"...I was 
recently informed that "chicken a la king" (probably in the top 100 American 
dishes) isn't mentioned at all, not even under "chicken"!
   Again, John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK has 1928 for 
"chess pie," and DARE has 1932 for "chess pie."  I had found several 
citations in the early 1880s.  (See ADS-L archives.)
   Old cookbooks take "chess pie" to the 1870s.  Newspaperarchive has it from 
1866.  I'll try to do better with the full-text CHICAGO TRIBUNE from the 
1840s, 1850s, and 1860s.  I doubt that I'll find "chess pie" in the digitized 
EARLY AMERICAN NEWSAPAPERS (which are mostly pre-1825).
      
  
(FEEDING AMERICA)
http://digital.lib.msu.edu/cookbooks/searchresultswithin.cfm?start=11
CHESS-PIE 
Practical Cooking and Dinner Giving. A Treatise Containing Practical 
Instructions in Cooking; in the Combination and Serving of Dishes; and in the 
Fashionable Modes of Entertaining at Breakfast, Lunch, and Dinner. New York: Harper & 
Brothers, 1876.
     
CHESS PIE 
Buckeye Cookery, and Practical Housekeeping: Compiled from Original Recipes. 
Minneapolis, Minn.: Buckeye Pub. Co., 1877.
      
 
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 Coshocton Age  Friday, October 12, 1866 Coshocton, Ohio    
...fruit or vegetables to bo preserved. CHESS PIE. For" two pics common 
size..    
Pg. 4, col. 1:  
   CHESS PIE.--For two pies common size, take 4 eggs, 3 cups sugar, 1 cup 
cream, 1/2 cup butter, 1 tablespoonful flour, and flavor with nutmeg.  Cover the 
baking plates with crust, pour in the mixture, and grate nutmeg over it.  
There is no upper crust.  When a pretty brown, try with a spoon as for custard.  
This is the best pie we ever ate.


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Jun 19 00:35:04 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:35:04 -0400
Subject: Antedating "four flush" 1883/1885
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.203504.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You always knew it came from cards, but this just helps prove it and date it back a bit.


M-W and OED have 1887 for "four flush" to mean a draw poker hand in which a person has four cards of the same suit.

M-W, OED and HDAS have 1896 for "four flush" meaning both a "bluffer" and "to bluff", both cites coming from from good old George Ade.

23 March 1883 _Newark(OH) Daily Advocate_  1/3(newspaperarchive)

<<With the alternative of drawing to his four flush, Mr. Tucker remarked that it would cost $50 to play, and he put up the cash.>>

And, from 16 April, 1885  _Oshkosh(WI) Daily Northwestern  3/2

<<The alleged occupation of Penjdah by the Russians is the very thing England has been so nettled about, as a very strategic point on the frontier, and such a concession is looked upon as a virtual back-down by the British government.  The great bluff game, where both sides were drawing to a four flush, has been turned against the bluffer.>>

Sam Clements


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 19 01:51:29 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:51:29 EDT
Subject: Osgood Pie (1911)
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.215129.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OSGOOD PIE--Oh-so-good pie?
CHESS PIE--Jes' pie?

   OED's revision stops just short of "Osgood."  I re-checked on the usual
databases.


(ADS-L ARCHIVES, 12- December 2000)
OSGOOD PIES

Mariani states that these are "Oh So Good" pies, but he doesn't give a date.
Anyone have a date?

>From FRUIT, GARDEN & HOME (later BETTER HOMES & GARDENS), June 1924, pg.48,
col. 1
:_Osgood Pies_
4 eggs
1 cupful of raisins
2 cupfuls of sugar
3 tablespoonfuls of vinegar
2 tablespoonfuls of butter
1 teaspoonful each of cloves and cinnamon
Line pie tins with rich crust and cover bottoms with the raisins. Separate
the yolks and whites of the eggs.  To the yolks add the sugar, butter, spices,
and vinegar; mix thoroly and then add to this mixture the well beaten whites.
Mix well and pour into the crusts.  Bake in a slow oven.--Mrs. K. R., Iowa


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Classified Ad 4 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 30, 1924. p. X8 (1
page)

    2.  Early Shopping Food Pages; PRACTICAL RECIPES CHEF WYMAN'S ANSWERS
PRUNE ROLL WITH CARAMEL SAUCE
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 24, 1927. p.
A9 (1 page) :
      OSGOOD PIE
   A. B. M., Indio, Cal.:  One and a half cupfuls of seeded raisins, three
eggs, one cupful of sugar, one small cupful of cream, one lemon.  Beat the yolks
of the eggs, add the sugar, cream, grated rind of the lemon and then the
juice of the lemon.  Stir well while mixing in the lemon juice, beat the whites of
the eggs until stiff, then add the raisins, pour into the pie crust and bake.

    3.  Here Are More Pie Recipes of the Southland; They're Typically Creamy
and Flavorful.
MARY MEADE. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 29, 1934.
p. 15 (1 page) :
   And did you ever hear of Osgood pie?  'Twas a new one on me not so long
ago.  It also seems to belong to the same spicy, egg bound custard family.
      OSGOOD PIE
4 eggs
1 1/2 cups sugar
1 tablespoon butter, melted
3 teaspoons vinegar
1 teaspoon cinnamon
1 cup raisins
1 cup chopped nuts
   Separate the eggs and beat the yolks until light and fluffy.  Add to this
the melted butter, sugar, vinegar, and cinnamon.  Stir in the raisins and nuts
and turn into two pie pans which have been lined with pastry.  Bake in a
moderate oven (350 degrees F.) until firm.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 Washington Court House Record Herald   Thursday, March 26, 1970 Washington
Court House, Ohio
...Ever Hear Of OSGOOD PIE? OSGOOD PIE A new vertion of a dessert.....an
interesting dessert called OSGOOD PIE. When we first ate the PIE there we..

   Chronicle Telegram   Tuesday, March 17, 1970 Elyria, Ohio
...of OSGOOD PIE? NOW BY G. J. L. OSGOOD PIE is a new version of a dessert
PIE.....here's a new way to make OSGOOD PIE. Although other OSGOOD PIEs call
for..

   Fond Du Lac Commonwealth Reporter    Wednesday, July 29, 1970 Fond Du Lac,
Wisconsin
...1770 Fruits Provide Tarl Fhnor OSGOOD PIE A new version of a dessert PIE
that.....s Southern favorite. OSGOOD PIE Recipe Hard to Find for Food..

   Progress Bulletin    Wednesday, March 18, 1970 Pomona, California
...here's aj new way to make OSGOOD PIE.; Although other OSGOOD PIEs
call.....i serves an interesting dessert called OSGOOD PIE. At first wej didn't
remember..

 Progress   Wednesday, March 11, 1970 Clearfield, Pennsylvania
...Given at Senior Center Ever Hear of OSGOOD PIE? By 3IAETIN E. SEGAi.
pressed.....from oven. Use as directed is New OSGOOD PIE recipe. Trash Collected
At..

 Walla Walla Union Bulletin     Wednesday, February 06, 1974 Walla Walla,
Washington
...on wire racks. Makes 4 dozen cookies. OSGOOD PIE 2 cups sugar 2
this.....whipped cream. Makes one 9-inch PIE. PASTRY SHELL: Combine 1 cup..

 Bridgeport Telegram    Tuesday, May 24, 1927 Bridgeport, Connecticut
...redoes for both Pediin PIE and OSGOOD PIE." Answer: I am glncl to publish
the.....to say that, I am. not farr.ilar with OSGOOD PIE. I hope that if any
house..

 Bridgeport Telegram    Monday, July 25, 1927 Bridgeport, Connecticut
...Cob Lettuce Berry PIE Coffee "OSGOOD PIE: (Contributed by E. G. hot fnt
till..

   Indianapolis Star    Thursday, February 16, 1911 Indianapolis, Indiana
...1228 Brookslde avenue, Indianapolis. OSGOOD PIE. eggs (reserve the white
for..
Pg. 8, col. 4:
      _OSGOOD PIE._
   Take four eggs (reserve the white for frosting), one and one-half cupfuls
of sugar, one-half cupful of water, one cupful of raisins chopped fine, two
tablespoonfuls of butter, one tablespoonful of cinnamon, one teaspoonful cloves.
 Enough for two pies.  Put in one crust and cook, remove from oven and put
frosting on and return to oven to brown.
   MRS. AUSTIN SHAW.
636 Warren Avenue, Indianapolis.

 Mansfield News Journal     Thursday, June 24, 1954 Mansfield, Ohio
...O.. News-Journal Thursday, June 1954 "OSGOOD" PIE i of pecans, 1 cup
of.....raisins, 3 teaLine a PIE pan with your best spoons of vinegar..

 Bridgeport Telegram    Tuesday, July 26, 1927 Bridgeport, Connecticut
...wire down as before. Mrs. V. C. T. My OSGOOD PIE: Some time ago another
Reader..

   Chronicle Telegram   Tuesday, March 17, 1970 Elyria, Ohio
...way to make OSGOOD Pie. Although other OSGOOD PIES call for a baked pie
shell.....to her spring wardrobe Ever hear of OSGOOD pie? NOW BY G. J. L. OSGOOD
PIE..

   Progress Bulletin    Wednesday, March 18, 1970 Pomona, California
...to make OSGOOD Pie.; Although other OSGOOD PIES call for a baked pie
shell.....i serves an interesting dessert called OSGOOD Pie. At first wej didn't
remember..


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 19 04:50:52 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 00:50:52 EDT
Subject: German Chocolate Cake (12 April 1957, Commerce, Texas)
Message-ID: <SAT.19.JUN.2004.005052.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   There's a nice "German Chocolate Cake" from 12 April 1957, Commerce,
Texas, on Newspaperarchive.  If the recipe appeared in the fall of 1957 in the
DALLAS MORNING NEWS, that's too late.
   Of course, the New York Public Library gets the DALLAS MORNING NEWS from
1958.  Of course.
   The "German Chocolate Cake" story is famous, but I'll give also the
popular version below.



(GOOGLE)
Is there anyone who does not like chocolate?... A Texas homemaker sent the
recipe for German's chocolate cake to a Dallas newspaper in the fall of 1957, or
so say Kraft Foods, who now own the brand. ...
chef2chef.net/features/cynthia/article/2003-08.htm - 21k - Cached - Similar
pages


(GOOGLE)
Re: Delicious German Chocolate Cake
... A Texas homemaker sent the recipe for German's chocolate cake to a Dallas
newspaper in the fall of 1957, according to Kraft Foods.The cake's name comes
from ...
ba.food - Jun 28, 1999 by Computer Lab - View Thread (12 articles)


(GOOGLE)
http://www.kitchenproject.com/html/Is_German_Chocolate_Cake_Really_German.html

Is German Chocolate Cake Really German?

In America there is a very popular cake called German Chocolate Cake. It is
not German at all (Nicht Deutcher),

But it has an interesting history A recipe for "German's Chocolate Cake"
first appeared in a Dallas, Texas newspaper in 1957. That it was sent in by a
Dallas homemaker is all we know, according to Patricia Riso, a spokeswomen for
Kraft foods . It used a brand of chocolate bar called "German's" which had been
developed
in 1852, by an Englishman named Sam German, for Baker's Chocolate Company.
The cake had an immediate and enthusiastic response, and requests about where to
find the German's chocolate bar were so numerous that General Foods (who
owned Baker's Chocolate) decided to send pictures of the cake to newspapers all
around the country.Everywhere the recipe had the same response and the sales for
the chocolate exploded. Now the cake is a regular item in bakeries across the
country, and
a mix is on the grocery shelves also. It was my favorite cake when I was
growing up and I requested it for my birthday every year.

The cake most likely didn't originate from this Dallas housewife.
Buttermilk chocolate cakes have been popular in the south for
over 70 years, and Pecans are plentiful in the area also, to
make the nice frosting. German's chocolate is similar to a milk
chocolate and sweeter than regular baking chocolate.



(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 Daily Journal  Friday, April 12, 1957 Commerce, Texas
...Corn Mixed Greens Deviled Eggs GERMAN CHOCOLATE CAKE Corn Bread Loaf
Bread.....White Sauce Apple. Carrot Raisin Salad CHOCOLATE Pie Hot Biscuts Milk
Butter..
Pg. 2, col. 3:
_Cafeteria Lists_
_Four-Day Menus_
   Menus at the Commerce public school cafeteria for the week April 15-18
have been announced as follows:
(...)
   _Thursday_
(...)
   German Chocolate Cake


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 19 16:01:21 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 12:01:21 EDT
Subject: OT: French's mustard & hot dogs in 1904 (red-hot & mustard in
 1890)
Message-ID: <SAT.19.JUN.2004.120121.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Not only was the "hot dog" invented at the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair, 
but also French's mustard.  It invented the combination of mustard and hot 
dog--or so French's tells us.  Who am I to spoil a 100th culinary anniversary?
    
  
(GOOGLE)
http://www.frenchsfoodservice.com/frenchs/mustard/article.asp?articleid=49
French's Mustard was introduced at the 1904 World's Fair in St. Louis helping 
to popularize a new culinary creation: the hot dog  
  
http://www.foodtimeline.com
1904 George J. French introduced French's mustard, the same year the hot dog 
was introduced to America at the St. Louis World's Fair. 
1904 The tea bag was invented by Thomas Sullivan of New York City. He first 
used them to send samples to his customers instead of sending it in more 
expensive tins. 
1904 Puffed Rice was introduced at the St. Louis World's Fair. Developed by 
Dr. Alexander P. Anderson of NYC, and first manufactured by American Cereal Co 
(which later became Quaker Oats Co.) 
1904 Post Toasties were introduced by General Foods (originally called ‘
Elijah's Manna.’) 
1904 R. Blechyden served tea with ice at the St. Louis World's Fair and 
invented iced tea. 
1904 The ice cream cone was invented at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904. 
An ice cream vendor ran out of paper cups and asked a nearby waffle booth to 
make some thin waffles he could roll up to hold the ice cream.     
      
  
   The following excellent article appears to have been cut off at the margin 
and is nearly illegible, but it must be read.
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
   Salem Daily News     Saturday, January 18, 1890 Salem, Ohio  
...he sells hash, bread rankfort sausage, RED-HOT" 11 de shentlemens haf 
some.....ice HOT. In dis box I carries the und MUSTARD. I shust valk me I. und 
de..
Pg. 4?, col. 1:
_CHICAGO'S NIGHT COOKS._
(...)
   "See, he sells hash, bread (and?--ed.) frankfort sausage, red hot."
(...)
   The red-hots (are?) generally cut in two longitudinally (and?) smothered 
in mustard.


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Sat Jun 19 17:51:36 2004
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 13:51:36 -0400
Subject: Chess Pie (1866)
In-Reply-To: <1a5.24bb8974.2e04e308@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.19.JUN.2004.135136.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:30 PM 6/18/2004 -0400, you wrote:
Chess pie is indeed a fantastic concoction, but I never connected it to the
Buckeye State.  The Shaw House in St. Louis is known for it and includes it
in its book of 19th century recipes.  Like Indian pudding, it was a simple
dish to make on the frontier.



>
>CHESS PIE
>Buckeye Cookery, and Practical Housekeeping: Compiled from Original Recipes.
>Minneapolis, Minn.: Buckeye Pub. Co., 1877.
>
>
>(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
>  Coshocton Age  Friday, October 12, 1866 Coshocton, Ohio
>....fruit or vegetables to bo preserved. CHESS PIE. For" two pies common
>size..
>Pg. 4, col. 1:
>    CHESS PIE.--For two pies common size, take 4 eggs, 3 cups sugar, 1 cup
>cream, 1/2 cup butter, 1 tablespoonful flour, and flavor with
>nutmeg.  Cover the
>baking plates with crust, pour in the mixture, and grate nutmeg over it.
>There is no upper crust.  When a pretty brown, try with a spoon as for
>custard.
>This is the best pie we ever ate.


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun 19 22:45:33 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:45:33 -0400
Subject: Chess Pie (1866)
Message-ID: <SAT.19.JUN.2004.184533.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

As I know it is pecan pie without any pecans.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Beverly Flanigan" <flanigan at OHIO.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: Chess Pie (1866)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIO.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Chess Pie (1866)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> At 08:30 PM 6/18/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> Chess pie is indeed a fantastic concoction, but I never connected it to
the
> Buckeye State.  The Shaw House in St. Louis is known for it and includes
it
> in its book of 19th century recipes.  Like Indian pudding, it was a simple
> dish to make on the frontier.
>
>
>
> >
> >CHESS PIE
> >Buckeye Cookery, and Practical Housekeeping: Compiled from Original
Recipes.
> >Minneapolis, Minn.: Buckeye Pub. Co., 1877.
> >
> >
> >(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
> >  Coshocton Age  Friday, October 12, 1866 Coshocton, Ohio
> >....fruit or vegetables to bo preserved. CHESS PIE. For" two pies common
> >size..
> >Pg. 4, col. 1:
> >    CHESS PIE.--For two pies common size, take 4 eggs, 3 cups sugar, 1
cup
> >cream, 1/2 cup butter, 1 tablespoonful flour, and flavor with
> >nutmeg.  Cover the
> >baking plates with crust, pour in the mixture, and grate nutmeg over it.
> >There is no upper crust.  When a pretty brown, try with a spoon as for
> >custard.
> >This is the best pie we ever ate.


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun 20 04:04:33 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 00:04:33 -0400
Subject: walk-off
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.000433.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred Shapiro contributed back in 2000 that the earliest use of the term in baseball he could find was a quote from Dennis Eckersley(Go Cleveland) in 1988.

7 JUne 1958  _Sheboygan Press_ 14/1

<<When Milwaukee Braves relief specialist Don McMahon saw the Coliseum's left field screen Friday, he said, "When anything is hit to left, the pitcher can walk off the mound, he knows it's a homer.">

I know, I know.....not an antedating.  Just showing it was a common metaphor in pitcherdom a bit earlier than Eckersley.

Sam Clements


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 20 04:08:45 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 00:08:45 EDT
Subject: Romescu or Romesco Sauce, Cremat (1954) & Catalan cookery
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.000845.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I told you "Romesco sauce" wasn't invented in 1980.  I don't know if OED
is preparing this sauce.
   The 1954 book is a travel book by someone who has also done cookbooks.
   ProQuest Historical Newspapers and Newspaperarchive, unfortunately,  are
useless for Catalan cookery.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CATALAN CUISINE:
EUROPE'S LAST GREAT CULINARY SECRET
by Colman Andrews
New York: Atheneum
1988

   A great book on this cuisine.

Pg. 222:  ROMESCO
   "I don't think there are many cities in the world," Joseph Pla once wrote,
"that have, in addition to an incomparable past, a spledorous present and a
uniquely beautiful location, a sauce of their own."  The city he's talking
about is Tarragona, the fabled old Roman capital (and modern business center)
sixty miles or so down the coast from Barcelona, and the sauce is _Romesco_--a
Catalan classic based on pulverized almonds and hazelnuts, dried sweet peppers,
and tomatoes.  The word _romesco_, in fact, has three emanings in the region:
It is a variety of dried pepper, small, ruddy-red, and medium-mild, also called
the _nyora_ (_fiora_ in Castilian); it is a sauce, and it is a great seafood
dish--perhaps the most interesting of all Catalan fish soups or stews.  Local
tradition in Tarragona sometimes maintains that it is of ROman origin (hence
its name), and journalist Angel Muro, in his bookj _El Practicon_, published in
1894, extended its pedigree even further back, suggesting that it had been
eaten by the Celts in Tarragona and was in fact originally a Phoenician
invention.  A bit more modestly, another Tarragona journalist, Antonio Alasa, used to
claim that a representative of the city had offered it to Jaume I or Aragon,
The Conqueror, when he visited the region after his victory in Majorca in 1232,
and that by the end of the thirteenth century, it was common among local
fishermen.
   The only trouble with all this supposed history, of course, is that the
single most important ingredient of the sauce--the one without which, by common
agreement, it would not be _Romesco_--is the _nyora_ pepper, and peppers, an
import from the New World, weren't planted in Catalonia until the sixteenth
century.  In reality, whatever its antecedents, the dish seems to have first
appeared in the nineteenth century.
   Scholar Charles Perry, who has made a special study of peppers both sweet
and hot, tells me that he _thinks_ the _nyora_ pepper is the variety
scientifically called _Capsicum annuum grossum/provar. pomiforme/sub-var. Conc.
humilirotundum Haz_,  So there.  Whatever it is, it is not available in the United
States--but I've had good luck substituting ancho peppers (called pasilla in
California, though elsewhere that name refers to a spicier dried pepper) or small
New Mexican peppers.

(The revised OED has no entry for "nyora" pepper.  OED has only one recent
hit for "pasilla," and that has 2,330 Google hits--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
CONTINENTAL HOLIDAY SERIES WITH BON VIVEUR:
HOLIDAY IN BARCELONA AND THE BALEARICS
London: Frederick Muller Limited
1954
(The NYPL lists "Fanny Cradock" as the author "Bon Viveur"--ed.)

Pg. 73:  We devoured _sobrosada_ and butifarra_ (the red and black Ibicenco
sausages) and sampled both _palo_--an aperitif which is rather like Amer Picon,
but lighter, the sam colour but not so thick or of such high alcoholic
content, and _frigola_--a sticky, sweet, mild liqueur.
(See "sobrassada" and "botifarra" below--ed.)

Pg. 81:  Here follows a brief description of one or two dishes you may expect
to find and which we enjoyed very much indeed.
_Chipirones._
   Whole small squid with melted parsley butter and pimiento sauce called
Romescu.  This sauce is made with pimientoes, oil, wine, vinegar, powdered
garlic, cloves and almonds.  If it is very hot, drink with it (and almost everything
else) one of the countless variations of Sangria, a Spanish-type claret well
iced and served in a lidded glass jug with soda water, a dash of cognac,
orange and lemon juice and sections of fruit.
_Cremada Plachada._
   This is a form of caramel cream.  The basic cream is run over a shallow
plate and an ice-thin skating-rink of salamandered sugar locks it in.
_Gambas._
   Mallorcan Ibicenco prawn: soft, deep-pink and tasting like lobster flesh.
Wonderful with mayonnaise.
Pg. 82:
_Ensaimadas._
   These will be served to you every morning for breakfast on Majorca.  They
are the island specialty--coiled, featherweight, flaky buns, sweet and wholly
delicious.  According to the local patissier on the island it is impossible to
make them anywhere else.  As the tale runs, this authority on the subject
flew not only all the ingredients but the local water as well to Barcelona, and
even then, failed to make ensaimadas identical with the ones for which he is
renowned.
_Melon el Patio._
   This is a specialty of El Patio, Palma, Majorca.  Quarters of water melon
are marinated with kirsch and maraschino, dusted with sifted icing swugar and
thoroughly chilled.
_Rognons Jerez._
   Another specialty of the same house.  Kidneys cooked with sherry from
Jerez and asparagus tips.
_Gazpacho_.
   The cold national soup of Spain.  We will not go into the crude peasant
variety here, but will content ourselves with saying that the more sophisticated
version with its side dishes, as served to us at Finisterre, Barcelona, is
perfect in this climate and a great success when served at home in England.
_Paella Andaluz._
   Another national Spanish dish which will pop up everywhere: a
highly-filling concoction, of varying degrees of luxury, with some form of oil-fried rice,
vegetables, onion, garlic, sausage, chicken, lobster and shell-fish.
_Mero, Sauce aux amandes._
   This is the local fish cooked with a particularly succulent almond sauce.
Pg. 83:
_Champagne Cocktail._
   From a gastronomic stand-point we strongly disapprove of such a drink,
but, during a summer holiday in Spain, the temptation to drink champagne
cocktails at anything from 1/- to 2/6d. is  quite irresistible.
_Ibizenco hors d'oeuvre._
   This remarkable assortment, rivalled only by the Indonesian RIce Table,
includes (among many standard ingredients of a mixed hors d'oeuvre), the
following: brains dipped in butter, fried mushrooms, fried octopus, cold grilled
cutlets, stuffied pimientoes, cold fried kidneys, cold fried fish.
_The local creme caramel._
   Look out for an extremely naughty trick indulged in on the Island of
Ibiza.  THey drench the little moulds of caramel with marmalade.
_The omelette._
   Besides its normal service this will be quite a feature on any picnic
meals you are given.  It is customary to eat it cold, and it is really very good
indeed.
_Habas a la Catalana._
   Look for this in Barcelona.  The Spanish equivalent to the cassoulet of
France's Castelnadaury.
_Perdiz a la Vinagretta._
   A sweet service of partridge in which the bird is wrapped in vine-leaves
and served with vinaigrette sauce.
_Cremat._
   This primative offering is made with either rum, brandy or cana.  THis
last is a Cuban distillation from the sugar-cane.  THe chosen fire-water is
poured over sugar, burnt and doused with hot black coffee.  The result is a
non-aristocratic (Pg. 84--ed.) version of Monsieur Brillat- Savarin's Cafe Bruolt;
but around midnight in a small taverna, or on the terrace of your hotel, it is a
potent inducement to passing romance.
(See "Cremat" entry below--ed.)
_Helado Mandarin._
   Whole tangerines or mandarines are hollowed, stuffed with tangerine liquer
water-ice, frozen and served with the tops replaced and little dark-green
orange leaves added.  The effect is enchanting, the taste delicious, and this
takes the place of the Edwardian sorbet in the meal.
_Zarzuela._
   A saffron stew with oil and such fish as prawns, mullet, mussels, lobster
and octopus.  Highly indigestive, and well worth it!
_Habas._
   The Spanish version of Boston baked beans and bacon.
_Arroz a la Paella._
   Rice cooked with much saffron and opil, small shell-fish, chicken, octopus
and mussels.
_Tapas._
   Spanish hors d'oeuvre of many versions.  If you are fortunate enough to
sample this inland, it will probably contain fresh lobster, crayfish, raw ham,
artichoke bottoms, mayonnaise and ribbons of tripe in tomato and pimento sauce.
_Gambas a la Plancha._
   Grilled to order.  Served hot.  A positive passion with us.
_Salsa de Nadal._
   Christmas soup on Ibiza unchanged for centuries, containing chicken, pork,
spices and almonds.
Pg. 85:
_Ibizenco omeletttes._
   Expect to find these larger, heavier, frequently served flat instead of
folded, and laced with fish and vegetables.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BOTIFARRA/BUTIFARRA

BOTIFARRA + SAUSAGE--246 Google hits, 21 Google Groups hits
BUTIFARRA + SAUSAGE--525 Google hits, 37 Google Groups hits
(Not in OED)

CATALAN CUISINE, pg. 147:  _Botifarra._  This is perhaps the most common
Catalan sausage of all-the one you get grilled with white beans or wild mushrooms,
crumbled up in stuffings, etc.  It's simply a white pork sausage,
medium-coarse in texture and usually seasoned only with salt and pepper.  Under its
Castilian name, _butifarra blanca_, and in a domestically made version, it si
sometimes available at Spanish or Hispanic markets and it may be ordered by mail
(as _butifarrita_) from the La Espanola company in California.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SOBRASSADA/SOBRASADA

SOBRASSADA + SAUSAGE--240 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
SOBRASADA + SAUSAGE--1,570 Google hits, 11 Google Groups hits
(Not in OED)

CATALAN CUISINE, pg. 147:  _Sobrassada._  This is a Majorcan specialty, a
sofr, almost patelike pork sausage flavored with garlic and paprika and often
eaten simply spread on bread.  (Penelope Casas gives a recipe for a version of
_sobrassada_ in _The Foods & Wines of Spain_.)  A domestic version (_sobrasafa_
in Castilian) is sometimes available at Spanish and Hispanic markets (and,
again, is sold by La Espanola).  Otherwise, the closest march is Mexican pork
chorizo, though it's spicier than _sobrassada_.  Despite the similarity of name,
Italian _soppressata_ is not at all the same thing and is not a good
substitute.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CALCOTADA

CALCOTADA--606 Google hits, 244 Google hits
(Not in OED; nice, long writeup in CATALAN CUISINE)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CREMAT

CREMAT + COFFEE--282 Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits
(Not in OED)

CATALAN CUSINE, pg. 267--_Cremat (COSTA BRAVA RUM AND COFFEE PUNCH). (...)
And if all this someday happens, you will quite possibly be convinced, at least
for the moment, as I certainly wasmyself, that _Cremat_ is the most
delicious, wondrous drink you've ever tasted.
   If, on the other hand, you happen to be sitting on an apartment balcony in
New York City with the sound of screaming traffic in the distance...The stuff
still tastes pretty good.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TUMBET (MAJORCAN VEGETABLE CASSEROLE)

TUMBET--3,530 Google hits, 349 Google Groups hits
(Not in OED)

CATALAN CUISINE, pg. 274--_Tumbet (MAJORCAN VEGETABLE CASEROLE)_.  (...)  The
dish--which is simply an arrangement of sliced potatoes, eggplant, and bell
peppers, first fried and then layered in a cassola and baked in fresh tomato
sauce--is almost exclusively a summer dish in Majorca for just this reason.
Majorcans can't conceive of making it with ingredients that are not at their
best.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 20 05:50:07 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 01:50:07 EDT
Subject: Millionaire's Salad & Tek-Tek Soup (1958); What's Cookin' (1939)
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.015007.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MILLIONAIRE'S SALAD & TEK-TEK SOUP 
  
MILLIONAIRE'S SALAD--181 Google hits, 6 Google Groups hits
MILLIONAIRE'S SALAD + NEW ZEALAND--93 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
MILLIONAIRE'S SALAD + SEYCHELLES--25 Google hits, 5 Google Groups hits

     
(GOOGLE NEWS)
1 IN 130 AMERICANS A MILLIONAIRE
New York Post, NY - Jun 15, 2004
By BILL HOFFMANN. June 16, 2004 -- Americans are richer than ever — with one 
in every 130 people in the United States a millionaire, a study reveals. ...     

  
Millionaire club grows
Honeycomb Connect (subscription), Canada - Jun 16, 2004
New York, NY — There were an estimated 7.7 million high-net-worth individuals 
in the world at the end of 2003, up 7.5% or a net 500,000 people compared 
with ...    


   "Millionaire's Salad" is a dish from the Seychelles and other places.  The 
revised OED has New Zealand first (1982), but has the Seychelles second.  I 
found the following while browsing through WINE AND FOOD...I'll do a 
Seychelles-Madagascar trip eventually, but there was political unrest in Madagascar.
   (The above NEW YORK POST story came with a picture of a young guy on a 
yacht.  No millionaire does parking tickets in the Bronx five days a week.)
     
  
(OED)
millionaire's salad orig. N.Z., (a dish of or containing) the heart of a 
palm, esp. the nikau. 
1982 D. BURTON Two Hundred Years N.Z. Food & Cookery 7 Succulent and sweet to 
the taste, nikau heart later became known as ‘*millionaire's salad’ because 
the tree dies when the heart is removed. 1999 Jerusalem Post (Nexis) 12 Feb. 
29 Called ‘Millionaire's Salad’ in the Seychelle Islands, this salad is based 
on fresh palm hearts which grow wild on the islands.
  
  
   Spring Number 1958, no. 97, WINE AND FOOD, "Seychelles Fare" by Stanley 
Jones, pg. 10:
   What are the national dishes?  The first that comes to mind is tek-tek 
soup.  This is made from a species of tiny cockle which is easily collected by 
burrowing in the sand of the foreshore at any time when the tide is out or just 
beginning to come in.  A dish similar to civet-de-lievre, made from the 
fruit-eating bat, is another.  The white jelly-like contents of the coco-de-mer, 
that nut of a palm tree unique to the Seychelles which General Gordon of Khartoum 
averred was the Forbidden Fruit of the Garden of Eden, is a gustatory 
curiosity which I find to be disappointingly uninteresting, though I am told that it 
is more tasty if flavoured with maraschino or similar liqueurs.  Infinitely 
more appetizing is palmiste, the heart of the top of a wild palm.  This is cut 
from where the leaves begin to sprout; either chopped up raw and eaten as a 
salad, or boiled; its nutty flavour is very attractive.  It can also be marinated 
and bottled for use as required.  The cultivated coconut palm can also be 
used in the same way but, unless the heart is taken from a tree felled by a 
strong wind, it is rather expensive--hence the name "millionaire's salad".

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MORE "HAIR ON YOUR CHEST"
  
   The Chinese have lots of chest hair?
  
   Spring Number 1958, no. 97, WINE AND FOOD, "Marco Polo's Noodles":
   With the Chinese the thousand-year-old eggs are taken with a grain of 
salt--that is, it is one of their pastimes for amusement to serve these morsels to 
foreign visitors and watch keenly for their reaction. (...)
   "The eggs will put hair on your chest", the old-time Chinese are fond of 
telling their youngsters.
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"WHAT'S COOKING?" (continued)
  
WHAT'S COOKING--435,000 Google hits, 4,760 Google Groups hits
  
    I'll re-check with Newspaperarchive.  See the ADS-L archives for a 1942 
Gene Krupa speculation that this dates from 1934-35.  I just spotted the 
following:
  
   September 1955, CULINARY REVIEW--THE CHEFS' NATIONAL MAGAZINE, pg. 27, 
col. 2 cartoon:
(One chef to another--ed.)
   "WILL YOU STOP SAYING 'WHAT'S COOKING'?"
  
  
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
What's cooking?
JW>(2) So come see what's cooking at Applebee's Festa Italiana. ... What's 
cooking" is a code phrase for "what's happening" sometimes - it's a play on 
words. ... 
alt.usage.english - Nov 18, 1992 by Paul Burnett - View Thread (30 articles)    



(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 Mansfield News Journal     Saturday, June 28, 1941 Mansfield, Ohio     
...YOUR SILENCE.' BRAHD SAY, WHAT'S COOKING I .on, i GET I TRYIHG 70 
FRAME.....AND THE "LADY" BRAIN DISCOMEK CLUE so WHAT, COOL off, Qmss i MISSED PLANS 
THK..
    
 Key West Citizen   Friday, September 26, 1941 Key West, Florida    
...Mtina fantastic at first, but WHAT'S COOKING? New luminous plastic lure 
for..
    
   Helena Independent   Tuesday, September 30, 1941 Helena, Montana     
...they are not saying just now WHAT'S COOKING in the future pot. 
Physically.....of the New Yorks is still favoring what was a severe sprain and chipped..
    
   Gettysburg Times     Thursday, January 30, 1941 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania   
    
...quite a crowd out there. WHAT'S COOKING in. The door opened wide. 
anoV.....man Charlie to do for the variety show what Parade did for the movies, what..
    
   Nevada State Journal     Saturday, August 02, 1941 Reno, Nevada      
...me a buzz now and then to see WHAT'S COOKING When I inquire why she 
is.....actual story of a small contractor and what happened to him, play by play, 
in..
    
   Nevada State Journal     Thursday, October 30, 1941 Reno, Nevada     
...go into conference to find out WHAT'S COOKING, which they don't until I 
say.....TO DO Everybody is trying to guess what the future has in store, 
especially..
    
   Gettysburg Times     Friday, March 07, 1941 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania     
...surrounded by skyscrapers. WHAT'S COOKING here. Are_; yoii 
.ciirious.....doing average things for a reels. What does Alice do? First. :time you see..
    
   Nevada State Journal     Friday, March 21, 1941 Reno, Nevada     
...word from Phillips, Gammick and WHAT'S COOKING Cashill, the attaches sang 
"God..
    
   Newark Advocate  Monday, February 14, 1938 Newark, Ohio      
...an' lifting up pot lids to see WHAT'S COOKING an' jest generally snooping. 
So.....if he had had any knowlmanding to know what we are edge in 1917 of 
what came to..
    
   Stevens Point Daily Journal  Saturday, September 11, 1915 Stevens Point, 
Wisconsin     
...bunch of soldiers listening to WHAT'S COOKING for supper, and over here Is 
the.....father's very decided tastes in COOKING, and it would take months 
to..
    
   Charleston Daily Mail    Saturday, November 26, 1932 Charleston, West 
Virginia   
...nuls at all. I simply must see WHAT'S COOKING ...I'm going to lift 
the.....and home influences are paramount. What his mother does, what ,his father..
    
   Charleston Daily Mail    Friday, November 25, 1932 Charleston, West 
Virginia   
...of soda in it. I'd like to know WHAT'S COOKING ...think I'll take a Some 
dish.....Out of the Charleston Daily Mail's COOKING pot of good ideas will 
soon..   
      
   Helena Independent   Friday, May 10, 1940 Helena, Montana    
...MOTOR [OAIHiYSIfM LOOK WHAT'S COOKIN' AT TBE mflRLOUJ STARTS 
SUNDAYI.....could not be reached to explain what had happened. Belgians stood in the..
    
   Helena Independent   Wednesday, October 08, 1941 Helena, Montana     
...I believe you. Mr. Wade, WHAT'S COOKIN'. Wallace Wade, Duke My team, 
I.....conversation to the specific and asked what McCarthy thought of Sturm. He..
    
 Iowa City Press Citizen    Wednesday, April 23, 1941 Iowa City, Iowa       
...BIG DAYS ENDS TUESDAY WOW Look WHAT'S COOKIN" HERE'S YOUR APPETIZING DISH 
OF.....and -develop a definite dea as to what to do in event of either a 
Hitler..
    
 Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune     Saturday, November 29, 1941 Wisconsin 
Rapids, Wisconsin       
...even a wrestling fan would know WHAT'S COOKIN'. Antigo in Easy 29-13 Win 
Over.....it has a dangerous aerial attack. "WHAT'S more, the fact we have two 
teams..
    
 Deming Headlight   Friday, May 23, 1941 Deming, New Mexico     
...NIGHT SUNDAY AND MONDAY LOOK WHAT'S COOKIN' Alive (and Kickin') The stars 
of.....Charles Lombard Laughton in "They Knew What They Wanted" Yes, and we do 
to it..
    
 Lima News  Sunday, December 07, 1941 Lima, Ohio    
...Out By Chet Smith Hy'a Toots WHAT'S COOKIN'? BASEBALL'S MARKET OPENS 
IN.....0., Dec. (AP) Warmed up by "let's see what we've got" games against..
    
 Lima News  Monday, December 22, 1941 Lima, Ohio    
...MARCH OF TIME frtl.OR CARTOON "WHAT'S COOKIN DOC" NEWS EVENTS Attention 
LIMA.....Read In 98 Of Every 100 Lima Homes" WHAT A SHOW DON'T MISS IT The 
K.A.I'. I..
    
   Coshocton Tribune    Wednesday, December 06, 1939 Coshocton, Ohio    
...rugs to prove they really know WHAT'S COOKIN'. When the city invited them 
to a.....the November election, I know that is what they Mayor Treasure said. 
know the..
    
   Zanesville Signal    Sunday, December 10, 1939 Zanesville, Ohio      
...began to prove they really know WHAT'S COOKIN'. When the citv 
invited.....we noticed the most mamHere's WHAT'S COOKIN1 Knocks Himself Cold Hail..
    
   Indiana Evening Gazette  Wednesday, December 06, 1939 Indiana, 
Pennsylvania    
...rugs to prove they really know WHAT'S COOKIN'. When the city invited them 
to a.....old people alive than before. Just what does the term 
arteriosclerosis mean.. 


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Sun Jun 20 14:55:06 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 10:55:06 -0400
Subject: my second-favorite quotation
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.105506.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This one is for Fred.

I believe I have posted before that my second-favorite quotation is from Herman Hickman, the early 1950s Yale football coach.  When asked one year what his hopes were for the his team, he said that they were the same as every year, that the team would play at least well enough to keep the alumni sullen but not mutinous.

It seems that I'm not the only one who remembers this line.  The Sunday Business section of the NYTimes, June 20, 2004, p. 1, col. 4, quotes Richard D. Parsons, chief executive and chairman of Time Warner, referring to an appearance by AOL-Warner exectives at a meeting of company employees in 2002:

"When we were here in '02, Barry said that people were disappointed and somber," he said, then paused a beqat for effect.  "They were sullen, bordering on mutinous, is what they were."

GAT


George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From tb0exc1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Sun Jun 20 17:03:50 2004
From: tb0exc1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (callary ed)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:03:50 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: SECOND CALL FOR PAPERS]] (fwd)
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.120350.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

***********************************************************************
Edward Callary                      Phone: 815-753-6627
English Department                  email: ecallary at niu.edu
Northern Illinois University        FAX: 815-753-0606
DeKalb, Il 60115-2863
***********************************************************************



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:52:09 -0400
From: Ed Lawson <edlawson at netsync.net>
Reply-To: lawson at fredonia.edu
To: ed Callary <ecallary at niu.edu>
Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: SECOND CALL FOR PAPERS]]



-------- Original Message --------
Subject:        [Fwd: SECOND CALL FOR PAPERS]
Date:   Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:19:40 -0400
From:   Ed Lawson <edlawson at netsync.net>
Reply-To:       lawson at fredonia.edu
To:     Ed Callary <ecallary at niu.edu>





-------- Original Message --------
Subject:        SECOND CALL FOR PAPERS
Date:   Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:26:17 -0400
From:   Ed Lawson <edlawson at netsync.net>
Reply-To:       lawson at fredonia.edu
To:     Ed Callary <ecallary at niu.edu>





Ed C:

Can you put this out on ADS-L?   It's complicated to explain but it
amounts to that my e-mail address of record with ADS is lawson at fredonia.edu
but when I send out mail it goes to edlawson at netsync.net & confuses the
ADS setup.


American Name Society with the Linguistic Society of America

CALL FOR PAPERS, PROGRAM SUGGESTIONS, AND PARTICIPANTS

Second Call: June 17, 2004 for San Francisco, January 6-9, 2005

San Francisco 2005.

The American Name Society invites abstracts for papers and program
suggestions for ANS sessions to be held in conjunction with the
Linguistic Society of America, the American Dialect Society, and other
organizations in San Francisco, 6-9 January 2005.   We welcome all
members of ADS & LSA to attend all sessions.

The preferred mode of transmission of abstracts or proposals is by email
or e-mail attachment sent to:

 edlawson at netsync.net <mailto:edlawson at netsync.net>

Abstracts sent by surface mail are acceptable and should be addressed to:

                                                               Edwin D.
Lawson
                                                               23
Westerly Drive
                                                               Fredonia
NY 14063

The meetings will take place at the Hyatt Regency Embarcadero.  The
rates for a single/ double room are $115.00.

Abstracts on any area of onomastics are appropriate. Abstracts of
150-200 words should be sent as soon as convenient but not later than 1
September 2004.  Proposals for panel discussions, nominations for
distinguished or speakers, or other types of proposal are due by August 1.
Eligibility.  Membership in the American Name Society is a requirement.
There is also an ANS registration fee (to cover items not covered by
LSA, projector use, ANS printed programs, badges, etc.).  The charge in
Boston was $16.
There is a registration fee due the Linguistic Society of America (in
addition to getting greatly reduced hotel rates, LSA offers us many
special lectures and the book exhibit). This year the regular fee was
$70 with other rates for students/retirees and for just one day.
Sessions of the American Dialect Society and other allied groups are
also open to ANS members.   Non-Members of ANS are welcome to submit
abstracts but they will have to be members  of  ANS for final
acceptance of  papers for presentation.

If a paper is accepted for ANS, the abstract will be published in the
LSA 180-page Meeting Handbook as well as the ANS program.  Further
information on registration and on the hotel is to be available in May.

  All abstracts will be evaluated anonymously and senders will be
notified by 15 September 2004 or as soon as possible after that date.

 Further information concerning the Linguistic Society of America and
the 2005 LSA meeting in San Francisco can be obtained from the LSA
homepage,

<http://www.lsadc.org>

www.lsadc.org <http://www.lsadc.org>



We are happy to announce that William Bright, distinguished professor
emeritus of anthropology and linguistics, UCLA who is currently an
adjunct professor at the University of Colorado will be our keynote speaker.

"The study of names generally focuses on placenames and personal names,
but in principle can also include such classes as animal names and plant
names. Among the American Indian tribes of northwestern California, the
operation of a taboo on speaking the names of the dead had the
side-effect that other types of names, especially of animals, were
frequently replaced by descriptive expressions. The result was
vocabularies in which a high proportion of nouns were of the descriptive
type."

We are also please that Sheila Embleton of York University will be the
discussant.

Some abstracts have already come in from such far away places as New
Guinea and Nigeria.  At least two session devoted to a single topic are
currently being negotiated.

******************************************************************************

ANS/LSA San Francisco, January 2005
Preliminary Indication of Interest

Your completion of this form at this time will help us plan the meeting.

Please include:

Author's name:

Author's affiliation:

Address:

Telephone no.:

Fax no.
E-mail address

Title of paper (or topic):

 Proposal Suggestion

Time requested: 20 minutes + 10 minutes discussion NO DISCUSSANT.

                                       Or

                             20 minutes + 3 minutes DISCUSSANT - 7
minutes discussion

Special equipment (overhead projector, slide projector, etc.).

Special scheduling requests:

  ************************************************************************************


  Details about membership in the American Name Society are at:

                            http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ANS/

The Boston Meeting (2004).

At the ANS sessions, 19 papers were presented, and 24 people
participated as authors, chairs, or discussants.  The world of
onomastics was well-represented with participants from Canada, China,
Finland, Israel, Malta, South Africa, and United Kingdom, as well as
from the US.

The keynote speaker was Stanley Lieberson (Harvard University) who spoke
on, "Popularity as a taste: Application to the naming process."  Our
special speaker was Patrick Hanks (Editor-in-Chief, Dictionary of
American Family Names) who spoke on, "Family names in America:
Assimilation and conservation."  Ron Butters (Duke University) organized
two outstanding sessions on brand names.

We would also like to recognize Richard Sheil of SUNY, Fredonia, who
designed the program cover,  Paul Drexler for local arrangements, and
ANS members who attended the sessions, Dorothy Litt, Ted Stevens, and
Paul Sorvo.

The first day's sessions were especially well-attended with more than 30
in attendance for the morning program and more than 40 people for the
afternoon program on brand names.  Noteworthy is that many attendees
were from the Linguistic Society of America and the American Dialect
Society.

One feature introduced at the Boston meeting was to give authors the
option of having a discussant for their papers.  Although not mandatory,
discussants often added a great deal to the presentations.

--
                    ______        Edwin D. Lawson
                  /       |       Professor Emeritus of Psychology
                 |        |       State University of New York, Fredonia
                /         |       Fredonia, NY  14063-1605 USA
    __________/           |
   /                      |
 /+Buffalo                |       EMAIL: lawson at fredonia.edu
|*FREDONIA                |       Telephone:  (716) 673-1921
|_________________        |
                   \_     |
                      \   |
                        '-| __ ,---|
                          /___/-- /

See American Name Society on the Web: http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ANS/

Other members of the program committee:

Ed Callary
Michael McGoff
Don Orth
Paul Drexler
Laurel Sutton




--




                    ______        Edwin D. Lawson
                  /       |       Professor Emeritus of Psychology
                 |        |       State University of New York, Fredonia
                /         |       Fredonia, NY  14063-1605 USA
    __________/           |
   /                      |
 /+Buffalo                |       EMAIL: lawson at fredonia.edu
|*FREDONIA                |       Telephone:  (716) 673-1921
|_________________        |
                   \_     |
                      \   |
                        '-| __ ,---|
                          /___/-- /

See American Name Society on the Web: http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ANS/


--




                    ______        Edwin D. Lawson
                  /       |       Professor Emeritus of Psychology
                 |        |       State University of New York, Fredonia
                /         |       Fredonia, NY  14063-1605 USA
    __________/           |
   /                      |
 /+Buffalo                |       EMAIL: lawson at fredonia.edu
|*FREDONIA                |       Telephone:  (716) 673-1921
|_________________        |
                   \_     |
                      \   |
                        '-| __ ,---|
                          /___/-- /

See American Name Society on the Web: http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ANS/


--




                    ______        Edwin D. Lawson
                  /       |       Professor Emeritus of Psychology
                 |        |       State University of New York, Fredonia
                /         |       Fredonia, NY  14063-1605 USA
    __________/           |
   /                      |
 /+Buffalo                |       EMAIL: lawson at fredonia.edu
|*FREDONIA                |       Telephone:  (716) 673-1921
|_________________        |
                   \_     |
                      \   |
                        '-| __ ,---|
                          /___/-- /

See American Name Society on the Web: http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ANS/


--




                    ______        Edwin D. Lawson
                  /       |       Professor Emeritus of Psychology
                 |        |       State University of New York, Fredonia
                /         |       Fredonia, NY  14063-1605 USA
    __________/           |
   /                      |
 /+Buffalo                |       EMAIL: lawson at fredonia.edu
|*FREDONIA                |       Telephone:  (716) 673-1921
|_________________        |
                   \_     |
                      \   |
                        '-| __ ,---|
                          /___/-- /

See American Name Society on the Web: http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ANS/


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 20 21:33:46 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:33:46 EDT
Subject: On any given Sunday (1950); On any given Saturday (1927)
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.173346.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "On any given Sunday is often credited to NFL Films or former NFL
commissioner Pete Rozelle, but it goes back much further than that.
   Like "Sunday morning quarterback" and "Monday morning quarterback," I
checked "on any given Saturday."  Again, college football is earlier here.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("on any given Sunday")
 Mansfield News Journal     Sunday, January 03, 1954 Mansfield, Ohio
...including an all-important 58-' ON ANY GIVEN SUNDAY ANY pro team has
the.....victory in the sectiONal tournadefeaf ANY other club. "All the pro oppositi
ON..
Pg. 20, col. 1:
   That's what Dick Logan, the two-year offensive guard of the Green Bay
Packers, contends....(...)...However, Logan, who is scheduled for army induction
tomorrow, went on to say that on any given Sunday any pro team has the
potential to defeat any other club..."All the pro opposition is of the finest," he
says.  "You don't hit occasional easier spots like you do in the college brand of
competition.  And there's plenty of spirit, too.  The pros want to win just
as much as the boys in high school and college."

   Nevada State Journal     Sunday, October 02, 1955 Reno, Nevada
...Our first team can lick ANYbody on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY, but we don't have
the.....but the Redskins will be in trouble if ANY of them are sidelined by
injuries..
Pg. 15, col. 5:
   "Our first team can lick anybody on any given Sunday, but (Col. 6--ed.) we
don't have the reserves and bench strength," Kuharich said.
(Joe Kuharich, coach of the Washington Redskins--ed.)

 Lima News  Sunday, February 24, 1957 Lima, Ohio
...ANY team can beat another on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY, whether it be first
or.....Ford Frick the "finest written for ANY group of men" .players with five, 10..
Pg. D-4, col. 6:
  "That's easy," he (NFL commissioner Bert Bell--ed.) says "The equalization
of the teams has been the savior of the game.  Nothing brings out people more
than competition.  There used to be a day when two or three teams won all the
games.  Today, any team can beat another on any given Sunday, whether it be
first or last."


   Holland Evening Sentinel     Wednesday, June 19, 1957 Holland, Michigan
...team can beat ANY other team on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY." Gibbs, 56, has
been.....36 years and has 19 years, longer than ANY other official, in the NFL. His
No..
Pg. 13, col. 2:
   "This season coming up should be the most interesting in the National
Football League history.  All teams are evenly matched and any team can beat any
other team on any given Sunday."
(Ronnie Gibbs, NFL official--ed.)

 Mansfield News Journal     Thursday, October 10, 1957 Mansfield, Ohio
...s last ONe, kind of beautiful ON ANY GIVEN SUNDAY afternoON these
October.....Especially In Fall By GEORGE CONSTABLE ON a. bright fall day, sunligh:
fingers..
(Not sports-related--ed.)

   Newport Daily News   Saturday, November 02, 1957 Newport, Rhode Island
...capable of beating ANY other team on ANY GIVEN afternoon." For several
years.....points don't count at. all on a GIVEN SUNDAY afternoon. i W-FIGHTING
Willie..
Pg. 8, col. 1:
   The most obvious explanation for NFL upset each Sunday could be contained
in Bert Bell's annual pre-season speech, in which he intoned: "In this league
any team is capable of beating any other team on any given afternoon."

   Newport Daily News   Monday, June 02, 1958 Newport, Rhode Island
...There is league balance, ON ANY GIVEN SUNDAY a cellar club can knock
off.....Why? Doesn't a wrestling fan have ANY rights? Is he a secONdclass,
citizen..
Pg. 11, col. 1:
   JONES (David R. Jones, president of the Cleveland Browns--ed.) WAS ASKED
to explain why in recession-hit towns, like Detroit and Cleveland, fans had
enough money to buy football tickets so far in afvance but were not buying
baseball tickets.
   "I think it is because there is no Yankee runaway in football.  There is
league balance.  On any given Sunday a cellar club can knock off a contender."

   Western Kansas Press     Friday, December 21, 1962 Great Bend, Kansas
...standouts to say that on almost ANY GIVEN SUNDAY, as Blanda goes so go
the.....loving Carllon (Cookie) Gilchrisl of ANY of his backboard prowess and..
Pg. 6, col. 2:
   But it's hardly a reflection on the other offensive standouts to say that
on almost any given Sunday, as Blanda goes so go the Oilers.

   News Herald  Wednesday, September 25, 1963 Hubbard, Ohio
...isn't there something about "on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY... 'CLARKSDALE, Miss.
(AP.....by the National Football League of ANY wrongdoing in financial dealings..

Pg. 18, col. 1:
   Now isn't there something about "on any given Sunday..."

 Oshkosh Daily Northwestern     Friday, October 23, 1964 Oshkosh, Wisconsin

...alsorans who could bust loose on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY. The Browns face
their.....the Athletics" owner. "I haven't at ANY time been approached by ANY one
from..

   Sheboygan Press  Thursday, October 07, 1965 Sheboygan, Wisconsin
...schedule. And this business of 'on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY ANY team can beat
another.....not pinpointing h i s comments on ANY particular game, Davis made
such..

 News Journal   Sunday, October 23, 1966 Mansfield, Ohio
...by noting that "ANY GIVEN team on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY But his phrase making
has.....in an American Football League game SUNDAY. In other SUNDAY action, the
New..

 Oshkosh Daily Northwestern     Tuesday, October 25, 1966 Oshkosh, Wisconsin

...It has been said that ANY team on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY can stop another in
the.....price he gives you a better deal than ANY of the so-called "bargain"
stores..

 Valley Independent     Friday, November 04, 1966 Monessen, Pennsylvania
...to the American public -that on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY, ANY NFL team can team
is.....is first in the AFL in defense. ANY other team. The actual fact that
the..

 Valley Independent     Thursday, September 19, 1968 Monessen, Pennsylvania

...over St. Louis know how it is, on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY American football
league.....outcome when the two clubs meet again SUNDAY at Milwaukee. The
oddsmakers peg..

 Ironwood Daily Globe   Friday, September 26, 1969 Ironwood, Michigan
...angels fear to tread, and where on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY (or Saturday) ANY team
can.....beat ANY other. Now Atlanta at Los Angeles..

   Chronicle Telegram   Sunday, November 01, 1970 Elyria, Ohio
...undoubtedly heard the expression "ANY GIVEN SUNDAY." There have been too m
ANY.....for pick-up. Fits moot sptcei-almott ANY area, portable, or have it
builtin..
 Sheboygan Press    Friday, November 17, 1972 Sheboygan, Wisconsin
...Of Houston GREEN BAY, Wis. (AP) On ANY GIVEN SUNDAY, as the National
Football.....has preached to the point of te dium, ANY team is capable o upsetting
ANY..

 Ironwood Daily Globe   Friday, September 28, 1973 Ironwood, Michigan
...2-0) at Houston (0-2) On ANY. GIVEN SUNDAY goes the old saying.
.But.....of the season. "I. don't think there's ANY question the ball club played well..


 Post Crescent  Tuesday, December 03, 1974 Appleton, Wisconsin
...certainly a reminder that the ANY GIVEN SUNDAY cliche is still
operative.....a turnabout of such proportions in ANY game involving supposedly evenly..

   Indiana Evening Gazette  Friday, October 31, 1975 Indiana, Pennsylvania
...are those who subscribe to the ANY GIVEN SUNDAY theory. And there have
been.....Not Give Thy Opponent An Advantage. ANY advantage, no matter how minute.
You..


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("on any given Saturday" + football)
   Chronicle Telegram   Friday, October 17, 1952 Elyria, Ohio
...the squad to the top single; ON ANY GIVEN SATURDAY in the fa 11. ONly
50.....Press Sports Writer The NatiONal FOOTBALL League is busy proving'ANY..

   Sheboygan Press  Wednesday, October 17, 1962 Sheboygan, Wisconsin
...0 loss to Southern California. "ON ANY GIVEN SATURDAY, 1 think this
offense.....Sports chatter It didn't happen ON the FOOTBALL field but it sure's
shootin..

   Coshocton Tribune    Monday, October 27, 1952 Coshocton, Ohio
...WATERS COLUMBUS (UP) ON ANY GIVEN SATURDAY afternoON, ANY FOOTBALL
team.....can beat ANY other FOOTBALL team..." quoted from..
Pg. 8, col. 4:
_Old Adage Is Still Timely_
_Ohio Football Teams Learn_
   By HARRY WATERS
   COLUMBUS (UP)--"On any given Saturday afternoon, any football team can
beat any other football team..." quoted from, the "Old Coaches' Book."
   That was the old tale with a fresh new meaning for young grid warriors of
several Ohio COlleges and a university today.

 Post Standard  Saturday, November 04, 1950 Syracuse, New York
...of scouting would be terrific. ON ANY GIVEN SATURDAY afternoON in there
are.....NEW and Columbia will renew an FOOTBALL feud ON Baker field with the..

 Mansfield News Journal     Tuesday, October 21, 1952 Mansfield, Ohio
...ANY other cONference team ON ANY GIVEN SATURDAY. battle for the of
thej.....ONcebeaten Ohio State in a Big Ten FOOTBALL clash ihis SATURDAY at Iowa..

   Oshkosh Northwestern     Monday, September 09, 1940 Oshkosh, Wisconsin
...to mONopolize the headlines. ON ANY GIVEN SATURDAY, almost ANYthing
may.....By Harry Stuhlrireher. WiscON sin FOOTBALL Coach, Written for the..
Pg. 15, col. 1:
_BADGERS HAVE A_
_FIGHTING CHANCE_
_IN GRID GAMES_
_Stuhldreher of Opinion All_
_Eight Opponents on the_
_Fall Schedule Will Be_
_Formidable_
(By Harr Stuhldreher, Wisconsin Football Coach, Written for the Associated
Press)
   Madison--All signs point to the probability that the football season of
1940 will be marked by close games and brilliant play.  No team is likely to
monopolize the headline.  On any given Saturday, almost anything may happen in
any game.

 Ironwood Daily Globe   Monday, September 09, 1940 Ironwood, Michigan
...to mONopolize the headlines. ON ANY GIVEN. SATURDAY, almost ANYthing
may.....the from college to professiONal FOOTBALL after eight seasONs at..


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("on any given Sunday")
    This Morning With Shirley Povich
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 3, 1942. p. 9 (1
page):
   Until Saturday, full credit was being withheld from the Redskins on
account of Baugh.  It was Baugh who took the team wherever it went.  His passes were
appraised by the gamblers as worth 14 points to the Redskins on any given
Sunday, before they took the field.

    Sports of The Times; In Rude Rebuttal All the Ingredients Front and Back
The Matter of Schedules
By ARTHUR DALEYEarl Blaik. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York,
N.Y.: Oct 25, 1950. p. 48 (1 page) :
   The pros have a toughie every week and even the lesser lights have enough
talent to take the big boys if they let down on any given Sunday.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("on any given Saturday")
    1.  CADDIES' INCOME DEEPLY CUT BY RAINY SUMMER; Donaghey Has Something to
say Of and For the Boys Who Tote the Golf Bags.
FREDERICK DONAGHEY. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 8,
1915. p. B3 (1 page)

    2.  MANY CLOSE GAMES ON GRIDIRON TODAY; Crowley Warns of Possible Upsets,
but Believes Notre Dame Will Defeat Navy. PICKS YALE OVER BROWN Thinks
Harvard Will Down Holy Cross and Penn Will Conquer Penn State. COLUMBIA FACES A
BATTLE Georgetown Seems Stronger Than Syracuse and N.Y.U. Has Edge Over the
Fordham Eleven.
By CHARLES F. CROWLEY.. New York Times (1857. Oct 15, 1927. p. 9 (1 page)
(By Charles R. Crowley, Head Columbia Football Coach--ed.)
   No coach can tell with any amount of certainty whether he is going to run
into an Autumn breeze or a howling hurricane on any given Saturday afternoon.

    3.  Sports of the Times; An Early Fall. Coming Events. Places to Go.
Worse and More of It.
By JOHN KIERAN.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 16,
1928. p. 39 (1 page) :
   The trouble with football these days is that there are too many "big
games" on any given Saturday from mid-October until Thanksgiving Day.

    4.  Sports of the Times; Running Through Light Signal Drills. Primed for
Defeat. Taking the Air at New Haven. Resuming an Old Debate. The Retort
Courteous. Night Life on the Gridiron.
Reg. U.S. Pat. Off. By JOHN KIERAN.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New
York, N.Y.: Oct 10, 1930. p. 28 (1 page) :
   He aims to be ready if there's an opening for a good drop-kicker in any
given Saturday.

    5.  Over the Fence and Out.
Reg. U.S. Pat. Off.By JOHN KIERAN.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New
York, N.Y.: Feb 17, 1933. p. 24 (1 page)

    6.  FOG LIFTS SLIGHTLY ON GRID RADIO SITUATION; Local Football Fans Won't
Be Able to Tune in on Out-of-Town Contests It Is Feared
BRAVEN DYER. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun
14, 1933. p. A9 (2 pages)

    7.  This Morning With Shirley Povich; Football Map of the United States
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 21, 1940. p. 16 (1
page) :
   ...Mr. Tommy Harmon.  That young man appears able to score as many
touchdowns as is necessary on any given Saturday afternoon.

    8.  SPORT POSTSCRIPTS; Postscripts
PAUL ZIMMERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.:
Nov 22, 1940. p. A9 (2 pages)
First page:  Undoubtedly you can pick a team that--on its college
performance--could defeat this eleven; but you will have to admit that this is a pretty
fair country aggregation that would give a very good account of itself on any
given gridiron on any given Saturday.


(WWW.PAPEROFRECORD.COM)
   11 October 1950, THE SPORTING NEWS, pf. 42, col. 1:
   "Green Bay is a real title threat in the National Football League and is
liable, if not likely, to beat any team in the league on any given Sunday."
   This was Clark Shaughnessy's reaction here following Green Bay's sudden
upswing in power that was featured by a somewhat astounding 31 to 21 victory
over the Chicago Bears on October 1.

   26 September 1951, THE SPOORTING NEWS, pg. 46, col. 4:
   The Steelers are a rock-and-sock-'em group which on any given Sunday can
whip the best.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 21 01:03:30 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 21:03:30 -0400
Subject: "Do others before they do you" (1895)
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.210330.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DO UNTO OTHERS BEFORE--2,890 Google hits, 5,440 Google Groups hits
DO UNTO OTHERS BEFORE OTHERS UNDO YOU--41 Google hits, 29 Google Groups hits
DO OTHERS BEFORE THEY DO--28 Google hits, 7 Google Groups hits
DO OTHERS OR THEY'LL DO YOU--3 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits

   Many years ago (about 1990, when I first met Gerald Cohen), I was thinking of writing a book about the history and meaning and origin and variations of "the Golden Rule."  I'd studied the origin of weights and measures, and related it to the origin of language and "gematria."  It's a fascinating story.
   This was many years ago, before I found my true worth doing endless hours of parking tickets.
   Fred Shapiro no doubt will want to include "the Golden Rule."  The famous American variation can be found in the popular novel DAVID HARUM (1898), but Newspaperarchive shows a variation from 1895.


(CATNYP)
Westcott, Edward Noyes, 1847-1898.
Title David Harum; a story of American life.
Imprint New York, Appleton, 1898.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
   Daily Northwestern  Friday, January 04, 1895 Oshkosh, Wisconsin
...version of tbeUolden Rule is" DO .OTHERS BEFORE THEY DO YOU." There were.....DO this. What seems possible is that BEFORE tho tax Is collected the law -may..
Pg. 1, col. 7:
   The way of the water works man is by no means always pleasant.  The average manager of a water plant is generally put down by the public as a sort of green goods man or bunco steerer, or some other individual whose version of the Golden Rule is "Do others before they do you."

  Trenton Times  Monday, January 01, 1900 Trenton, New Jersey
...you." DO -not "raphrase this into "DO OTHERS BEFORE "icy DO but read it.....of our old copybooh-t school. "DO UNTO OTHERS 'as you would they should DO..
Pg. 4?, col. 3:
   "Do unto others as you would that they should do unto you."  Do not paraphrase this into "Do others before they do you," but read it aright.

  Daily Northwestern  Wednesday, October 30, 1901 Oshkosh, Wisconsin
...Harum's maxim in trading "DO UNTO OTHERS as they would DO UNTO you and DO.....may believe In and that Is 'OTHERS BEFORE they DO you." At any rate; it la..
Pg. 2, col. 2:
   But there are a few who believe in David Harum's maxim in trading horses: "Do unto others as they would do unto you--and do it fust."  There is also another phrase that some farmers may believe in and that is "Do others before they do you."

  Reno Evening Gazette  Tuesday, April 09, 1907 Reno, Nevada
...to Unwritten Law, "The Oldest UNTO OTHERS as You Would UNTO You999 DECLARES.....shall go DOwn, where so. many OTHERS. BEFORE''me, ania disappear from the..

  Bedford Gazette  Friday, November 24, 1922 Bedford, Pennsylvania
...not to wait. ducts of her soil. DO UNTO OTHERS as you would that vereity If.....for' towns to offer thus: "DO OTHERS BEFORE they "V uia is able to start its...
Pg. 5, col. 3:
   We too often let the enemy, Selfishness, get into our hearts and try to revise the Golden Rule, making it read thus: "Do others before they do you."

  Indiana Weekly Messenger  Thursday, December 14, 1922 Indiana, Pennsylvania
...DOwn the the street read like this DO UNTO OTHERS as you On Saturday night 1.....s, that nearly all the it DO OTHERS BEFORE they DO flju-iinsss men have..
Pg. 4, col. 2:
   I remember in 1826 the golden rule read like this--Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  Now it reads--Do others before they do you.

  Monessen Daily Independent  Monday, June 04, 1934 Monessen, Pennsylvania
...finished digesting the steak. DO UNTO OTHERS BEFORE they unDO you. They tell.....these two minutes than was experienced BEFORE on a show ground. Tlie show will..

  Hammond Times  Thursday, October 22, 1942 Hammond, Indiana
...good. Russia it is definitely "DO UNTO OTHERS BEFORE OTHERS DO UNTO Is revised.....the session. Dr. Stoddard's talk, made BEFORE a full auditorium, was titled..


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   GERMAN FLEET AT HONGKONG.; Japan's Movements Excites the Distrust of the Foreign Office at Berlin. Policies May Be Changed. Golden Rule of Diplomacy.
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 30, 1900. p. 4 (1 page):
      _Golden Rule of Diplomacy._
   These promises and programs reminded a cultured observer recently of the golden rule, "that is, the golden rule as formulated by David Harum, 'do unto others as you think they would do unto you, and be sure you do it first.'  Russia did it first."

   STATE SNAPSHOTS.; YE SODA CLERK. NEVER TAKES A DAY OFF.
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 8, 1901. p. 9 (1 page):
   The Keswick correspondent of the Reading Searchlight says that the motto: "Do others or they'll do you," is responsible for a great deal of misery and dishonesty.  He should follow the Los Angeles doctrine--"Do others before they do you."

   Do Others or They'll Do You?
V.H.J.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 25, 1906. p. 8 (1 page)

   SCOUTS GOLDEN RULE.; Chief Shippy Tells Association That Present Theory Is "Do Others Before They Do You."
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 4, 1908. p. I4 (1 page)


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Jun 21 01:49:59 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 21:49:59 -0400
Subject: The second syllable of "little, cattle, subtle"
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.214959.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What you think of the following exchange?

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 20:17:59 -0400
From: Marc Picard <marcpicard at SYMPATICO.CA>
Reply-To: American Name Society <ANS-L at LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
To: ANS-L at LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
Subject: Re: Back-formation

On Dimanche, juin 20, 2004, at 07:14  pm, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, MARC PICARD wrote:
>
> #
> #On Samedi, juin 19, 2004, at 02:16  am, MPI EVA Jakarta Field Station
> #wrote:
> #
> #> 'butl' with a syllabic 'l', I presume :)
> #
> #That would be impossible since the /t/ is flapped and flapping
> #absolutely requires a following vowel. The only syllabic consonant in
> #North American English is /n/. Notice the absence of flapping in
> #cotton, Latin, fatten as opposed to little, subtle, cattle.
> #
> #Marc Picard
> #
> I've been speaking North American English all my life -- over half a
> century
> -- and I say "little, subtle, cattle" with a syllabic /l/, laterally
> released from the /t/ as the second peak.

I guess that makes you one of a kind. Personally, I've never heard any
North American pronounce these words without a flap nor have I ever
seen what you describe reported in the literature. And I'm probably
older than you are.


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Jun 21 02:00:28 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 19:00:28 -0700
Subject: The second syllable of "little, cattle, subtle"
In-Reply-To: <200406201850.1bCdWMkE3NZFlr0@killdeer>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.190028.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think they can absolutely be pron'd with a syllabic l.  They
certainly can be pron'd with a schwa between a flapped t and the l,
but I agree with Mark, that the t isn't always a flapped one and can
be released laterally..

Rima


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Jun 21 02:08:07 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:08:07 -0400
Subject: Absolute "not so much" = "not really"
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.220807.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A friend has observed the recent (?) currency of the phrase
"not so much" used absolutely, i.e. without any following
correlative prepositional phrase or complement, in a meaning
something like 'no; not at all; not really'. He said he first
noticed it as something the Leo McGarry character on _West
Wing_ says. We have only a few examples:

2004 _Hotdog_ Apr. 10/1 A romantic thriller?
Interesting. Starring Josh Hartnett? Not so much.

2004 _N.Y. Times_ 15 June B1 (headline) The Killer Gown Is
Essential, but the Prom Date? Not So Much.

It sounds perfectly natural to me, so of course I can't think
of when I first heard it. Anyone have any grammatical or other
observations? Larry? Arnold?

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Jun 21 02:22:56 2004
From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 19:22:56 -0700
Subject: Chess Pie (1866); OT: Restaurant Week in NYC
In-Reply-To: <200406190030.i5J0UCMt008782@mxe2.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.192256.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wasn't chess pie called Jefferson Davis pie in the South?

OK, here is what I've found in the cookbook I'm using for a reference --
Joy of Cooking (30th printing, May 1983): Jefferson Davis Pie is a great
deal like the Pecan Pie, with these exceptions: it's creamy (1 cup cream
will do that!), but Rombauer still considers it a "transparent" pie; it
has dates, raisins, and fewer pecans (plus, they are put in as "broken bits").
A note says that without the* nuts* and spices, this becomes Kentucky Pie
(I think I will put it in my novel).  Following that recipe is one for Chess
Tarts (there is no Chess *Pie* in this cookbook).  This calls for baked
tart crusts and the Jefferson Davis Pie recipe, omitting the *dates* and
spices. So, three variations.  Here, Rombauer notes that the origins of
the various transparent pies are: Shoo-fly pie(slightly cakier),
Pennsylvania Dutch; Chess Pie (English, where they call them Banbury
tarts); and the Jefferson Davis and various pecan pies, and their
variations.

Now, curiously, the most recent Joy of Cooking has omitted many things,
among them Jefferson Davis Pie.  She does carry a recipe for Chess Pie,
"now chiefly a southern specialty."  "Chess pies . . . are essentially
pecan pies without the nuts."  Clearly one of the things this version of
the cookbook has lost is some of its tantilizing history!  Although with a
great deal more warnings -- all transparent pies curdle, with the
exception of Shoo-Fly Pie, which .....

I know this isn't "first siting," but it shows what happens to cookbooks
over time too.

Most recent Joy is the hefty (1136 pages, compared with the 916 of the
other one I cited) tome which came out in 1997, just in time for the
Christmas gift rush.

Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Chess Pie (1866); OT: Restaurant Week in NYC
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> OT:  RESTAURANT WEEK IN NYC
>  =20
>    It's restaurant week in New York City--for the next _two_ weeks.  The=20
> "prix fixe" is at $20.12, to help NYC get the 2012 Olympics and to swindle a=
> nother=20
> eight cents from the expected $20.04.
>    If you're coming to NYC, e-mail me and we'll make a reservation.  I must=20
> caution that I am on the rebound from Jennifer Lopez.
>  =20
> (GOOGLE)
> Summer Restaurant Week 2004 Summer Restaurant Week June 21-25 & June 28-July=
> =20
> 2. ... and three-course dinners for $30.12 to show support for New York=E2=
> =80=99s Bid=20
> to host the 2012 Olympic Games ...=20
> www.nycvisit.com/content/index.cfm?pagePkey=3D241 - 31k - Cached - Similar=20
> pages
>   =20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> --
> --------------------------------------------- =20
> CHESS PIE
>        =20
>    "Chess Pie" should certainly be in the forthcoming OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA ON=
> =20
> FOOD AND DRINK IN AMERICA.  I don't know what it has on "chess pie"...I was=20
> recently informed that "chicken a la king" (probably in the top 100 American=
> =20
> dishes) isn't mentioned at all, not even under "chicken"!
>    Again, John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK has 1928 fo=
> r=20
> "chess pie," and DARE has 1932 for "chess pie."  I had found several=20
> citations in the early 1880s.  (See ADS-L archives.)
>    Old cookbooks take "chess pie" to the 1870s.  Newspaperarchive has it fro=
> m=20
> 1866.  I'll try to do better with the full-text CHICAGO TRIBUNE from the=20
> 1840s, 1850s, and 1860s.  I doubt that I'll find "chess pie" in the digitize=
> d=20
> EARLY AMERICAN NEWSAPAPERS (which are mostly pre-1825).
>      =20
>  =20
> (FEEDING AMERICA)
> http://digital.lib.msu.edu/cookbooks/searchresultswithin.cfm?start=3D11
> CHESS-PIE=20
> Practical Cooking and Dinner Giving. A Treatise Containing Practical=20
> Instructions in Cooking; in the Combination and Serving of Dishes; and in th=
> e=20
> Fashionable Modes of Entertaining at Breakfast, Lunch, and Dinner. New York:=
>  Harper &=20
> Brothers, 1876.
>     =20
> CHESS PIE=20
> Buckeye Cookery, and Practical Housekeeping: Compiled from Original Recipes.=
> =20
> Minneapolis, Minn.: Buckeye Pub. Co., 1877.
>      =20
> =20
> (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
>  Coshocton Age  Friday, October 12, 1866 Coshocton, Ohio   =20
> ...fruit or vegetables to bo preserved. CHESS PIE. For" two pics common=20
> size..   =20
> Pg. 4, col. 1: =20
>    CHESS PIE.--For two pies common size, take 4 eggs, 3 cups sugar, 1 cup=20
> cream, 1/2 cup butter, 1 tablespoonful flour, and flavor with nutmeg.  Cover=
>  the=20
> baking plates with crust, pour in the mixture, and grate nutmeg over it. =20
> There is no upper crust.  When a pretty brown, try with a spoon as for custa=
> rd. =20
> This is the best pie we ever ate.
>


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Jun 21 03:06:47 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:06:47 -0400
Subject: Chess Pie (1866); OT: Restaurant Week in NYC
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.230647.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From: "J. Eulenberg" <eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: Chess Pie (1866); OT: Restaurant Week in NYC


> Wasn't chess pie called Jefferson Davis pie in the South?

Perhaps.  Barry found a cite from 1909.  Proquest Historical has a cite from
1907.  These are the earliest I could find.  And you have to use "Jeff Davis
Pie" to find some of them.

Makes you wonder if the pie was truly served back in the day.

Sam Clements


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 21 03:30:27 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:30:27 -0400
Subject: Romesco, Cremat, Parrillada, Calcotada, Suquet (1964)
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.233027.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NIU + ALLIOLI--14 English Google hits, 1 Google Group hit
SUQUET + POT--278 English Google hits, 6 Google Groups hits
PARRILLADA--21,500 Google hits, 1,720 Google Groups hits
A LA BRASA--827 English Google hits, 1,180 Google Groups hits
(Romesco, Cremat, Parrillada, Calcotada, Niu, Suquet, and a la brasa are all NOT in the OED)


   Two interesting books, both from 1964, with a few pages on the cuisine that I'll copy below.
   At least _some_ of these should make the OED soon...I want to fly to Barcelona right now.



TARRAGONA
by Jose Maria Espinas
Barcelona: Editorial Noguer
1964

Pg. 43:  CUISINE
   It is only to be expected that the typical cuisine in Tarragona should be characterized by the same features as the _Catalan cuisine_ which are also those of the Provence, Majorca and the Mediterranean in general.  It may surprise the reader to know that one of the first
Pg. 44:
cookery books ever printed following the invention of the printing press, was a text by Ruperto Nola, published in Barcelona in 1520.
   Tarragona contributes to the Catalan gastronomical perspective with dishes of rare quality, mainly due to the goodness of the natural products of the _Camp de Tarragona_, like hazel nuts from La Selva del Campo, and the fine olive oil from Reus and Tortosa, not counting the marvelllous sea food, so rich in variety.
   _Seafood dishes_ play a fundamental role in the typical cuisine of Tarragona.  The _Zarzuela_ is a rich dish composed of many different kinds of fish and shellfish; the _Parrillada_ is also made with a variety of fish, all of it grilled and sometimes served on straw baskets.  A portion of any of the two makes an abundant meal for almost anybody.  For fish dishes Tarragona has created a rich sauce, the _Romesco_, which has rapidly become popular along the whole coastline.  It is made with garlic, tomatoes and peppers pounded on a mortar and mixed with toasted almonds.  The resulting paste is thinned down with vinegar and olive oil, seasoned with salt and white pepper and left standing for a few hours before finally being strained.  Like all recipes, this one has a few variations on the amount and distribution of its elements, and the right amount of everything is the key to success.  Tarragona holds a yearly _competition for Romesco_ where the best cooks on the coast make their own special dishes with Romesco.  The lucky jury whose agreeable task it is to compare the best qualities in each separate delicacy, confer the prices and the title of _Mestre Romescaire_ (Master of Romesco).
   The _prawns_ from San Carlos and Cases d'Alcanar are one of the favourite dishes, in preference even to the excellent fish the coast offers.
   Valls has a special winter delicacy which attracts visitors from January to April.  The _calcots_, or young onions cooked, seasoned and dipped in their special sauce.  They are eaten with your fingers and a big serviette is available to wipe greasy fingers.  This usually accompanies either grilled lamb or pork sausages and is called _calcotada_.  The accompaniment to this gastronomic concert is the local wine, very strong and stimulating.  Valls is the meeting point for cars and coaches when the season for the _calcots_ starts.  The barbecue in the open air creates an atmosphere that reminds one of some old popular engraving.
   _Pastry_ is also very good.  Besides the popular _mona_ (a decorated gateau traditionally given by godparents to children at Easter, and sometimes decorated with the utmost fantasy), and the _panellets_
Pg. 45:
(another specialty of Catalonia to mark the festivity of All Saints on the 1st of November), the province of Tarragona contributes with delicious varieties based mainly on the fine almonds that part of the country grows, like _rifaclis_ and _carquinyolis_ from L'Espluga de Francoli, _merlets_ or _montblanquins_ from Montblanch, _bufats_ from El Vendreli, _menjar blanc_ from Reus, _pastissets_ from Tortosa, etc.
   The _wines_ deserve a special mention.  For one thing, part of the wine growing county El Penedes belongs, administratively speaking, to Tarragona, but besides this, the local wines are the _Priorato_ and the _Tarragona_.  Priorato is a wine produced in the county of this name whose soil is rich in sulfuric slate called _llicorella_; cultivation is hard and the crop small but the wine is excellent and of high alcoholic content.  It can be drunk pure and it makes a delicious strong drink or it can be used to reinforce weaker wines.  French vintagers have successfully used it for a long time for their "coupages".  The Tarragona is just as good as table or dessert wine.  Another one we can mention is the highly appreciated _Gandesa_.
   There are also a few anisettes and liqueurs worthwhile trying.  Vintaged in Tarragona and of world-wide fame are Chartreuse and Pernod, the later having a higher grade here than in France where it is known as _Tarragone_.  The dry _aguardiente_ anisettes from Valls are very famous.



THE COSTA BRAVA
by Nestor Lujan
Barcelona: Editorial Noguer
1964

Pg. 36:  San Pedro de Roda was founded so long ago that in the year 943 it was already said to be ancient.  During the whole of the Middle Ages the Benedictine friars ruled the country, protecting the fishing that was the basis of their food and producing great quantities of olive oil.  This makes Jose Pla think that perhaps it was they who introduced the _allioli_* into the cooking of fish in our country after having tasted it during some visit to Provence.  The fondness of the Benedictine monks for these fish dishes cooked with garlic is obvious from the old documents in the convent of San Feliu de Guixols.
   *_Allioli_ is a Catalan colloquialism for a kind of sauce made from olive oil with garlic added, and much used in the cooking of fish dishes on the Costa Brava.

Pg. 37:  THE CUISINE OF THE COSTA BRAVA
   The Guide could not end without a chapter on cooking.  In general, food in the whole of Catalonia is very good and on the Costa Brava, it is excellent.  As far as fish is concerned, on the Coast, as long the whole Mediterranean, it is cooked according to old and firm ritual.  Cooking is done mainly with olive oil which greases lightly and fries efficiently.  Thus in honour of old Mediterranean cultivation--the olive and the grape--a chapter on cooking had to be included.  And remembering Brillat-Savarin who said that the
Pg. 38:
discovery of a new dish is more important than the discovery of a new star, it has been thought worthwhile to give some indications on possible new dishes, and others with a strong flavour particular to this Coast.
   As might be expected the basis of the Costa Brava cuisine is fish, although this does not mean that there is not realyl excellent quality meat, mutton in L'Escala and on the whole Coast in general, the sausages of Palagrugell, game in Cadaques.  But the rich variety of fish along the sea-coast, and the palate of the _gerundeses_* of these regions have created some very noteworthy dishes.  Thus, the first of these indications concerns fish; the best fish on the Coast is _nero_ or jewfish.  This fish is found among rocks, is black and gold, muscular and hard.  _Nero_ is good whichever way it is cooked: grilled, baked, fried, cooked in rice or _suquet_.  The flesh of _nero_ is so tasty, so rich and savoury, that it permits any kind of manipulation.  Rice with heads of _nero_ is the ypical dish of Fornells and the whole of this sea-coast.
   _Dentol_, a species of porgy, is a butcher of a fish, and luminous.  _Dentol_, like bass, serves gloriously for a fish _suquet_.  This _suquet_ is nothing more or less than a mixed "pot" of Mediterranean fish.  According to latitude this "pot" will have different characteristics, reaching the sublime in Provence with the masterly _bouillabaisse_.  On the Costa Brava _suquet_ is made in a primitive way, if possible over a quick wood fire, and has a magnificent sauce made with oil, tomato, onion, garlic, and is extraordinarily vivid.  _Suquet_ can be had in any popular restaurant but it reaches its best in L'Escala and the inn "Casa la Neus".
   Another fish of excellent quality that can be eaten without hesitation along the whole Coast is _roger_ or red mullet.  This fish is really exceptional in Tossa, above all in the month of July, in Lloret, Blanes, along the coast of Torroella and among the rocks of Cape Bagur.  Red mullet is a voracious, greedy fish that even eats meat, and its quality depends on the food on which it has lived.  That caught in water whose bed is stony and well-provided with seaweed is best; it is big, with a round head and very hard flesh, and when it is cooked it turns a flaming red.  Mullet should be eaten _a la brasa_** with garlic and parsley, and even lightly scented by a tiny spray of fennel.
  * _Gerundeses_ are the people of the whole region of Gerona as well as the county town of the same name.
   ** Cooking _a la brasa_ is very popular in the Costa Brava, and might be defined as grilling either fish or meat without any oil or fat; it is often done on hot cinders.
Pg. 39:
   AMong others, the blue fish is of very fine quality on the Coast.  Sardines in May and August make a succulent breakfast.  Bought as the fishermen step out of their boats in Tossa, L'Escala, Blanes, Cadaques or Sa Riera, cooked _a la brasa_ using pine wood in the morning, when they are fat, their colour a varnished blue, and accompanied by a fine, light dry wine of Ampurias or Llagostera, they are unforgettable.  _Verat_ or mackerel, eaten the same way, is tronger and requires a wine with more body, denser, rose or red.  Anchovies are not eaten on the Coast but pickled in brine.  In Tossa and above all in L'Escala they are prepared in a very singular way.  A jar of a hundred anchovies might be one of the best souvenirs of these places, if of brief duration, although they keep for years.
   Fish soup is good anywhere.  Its base is usually, _Burras_, _aranas_, _rape_ etc., and above all grouper and dory which in our latitude are the best elements for fish soup.  As for _arroz de pescado_ (fish cooked in rice), the best is that made with crabs and the first green peas of the season.  If the conger eels which are to be found near Tossa in thecove of Giberola are added, this rice becomes literally extraordinary.  Rice with lobster is an excellent dish, strong and aromatic.  If shrimps are used as a base, the rice is likely to be a little soft and sticky.
   _Bogavante_ a local variety of lobster is caught i Fornells, Calella and above all in Cadaques and is as delicate as lobster.  It is best eaten cooked _a la brasa_ with a vinaigrette_; lobster is also served this way.
   There is an old unsettled argument as to which is best, _bogavante_ or lobster_.  The finest palates aredivided on this question and it is the basis of fiery discussions among the gourmets of the Coast.  Lobster _a la Catalana_ might be tried.  It has a basis of chocolate but possibly this dish is not native to the Coast and it is rather artificially concocted.  However, a dish that is native to the Coast is that of lobster and chicken, from the region round Palafrugell and Palamos.  This dish, which the writer has eaten in private houses in Calella and in the Hotel Trias of Palamos, is sumptuous and noble, and is served with an opulent, magic sauce, golden-brown in colour and very difficult to make perfectly.  For this dish the Hotel Trias in Palamos can be recommended as having one of the best cuisines on thecoast.
   Another typical dish is lobster and snails and, in the region of Palamos, the celebrated _niu_.  _Niu_ or nest is a dish based on salt cod potatoes and pigeons and covered, with _allioli_ which is like a golden
Pg. 40:
lava and makes it vividly gay.  This dish, strong, violent and heavy, is almost feudal and avokes memories of ancient Ampurdian.
  Molluscs (_mejillones_) have been devastated on the Coast.  Molluscs thrive best among rocks very battered by the waves, above all if sweet water filtres in; only in Cadaques--and perhaps in L'Estartit--is there still anything like an appreciable quantity, especially in a year of abundant rain.  In cadaques they are eaten boiled and are recommended as an _entree_; they have an odour and taste which are penetrating, briny and delicious.  In cadaques partridges from Cape Creus can be had in season and in La Selva magnificent woodcock.  Pork is excellent along the whole region.  _Butifarra de perol_ with haricot beans and the sweet _butifarra_ (sausage) of Ampurdan--excellently prepared in Palafrugell--the point at which confectionery and cooking meet, is an exquisite dessert.  Likewise, speaking of dessert, Palamos takes the palm with its buns and cakes.  In lower Ampurdan, caramel custard reaches a high level of perfection.  In Lloret and Tossa the preserves are excellent and the delicious autumn compotes and preserves are memorable.
   As the country of the _indianos_, coffee has an enormous importance.  The combination which is called _cremat_: coffee, rum, sugar and lemon in a kind of punch, drunk in a tavern in Llafranc or L'Escala in the jolly company of a few sailors, helps the visitor to apreciate a life that is humble but warm, and intense.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 21 04:54:55 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 00:54:55 -0400
Subject: Puchero, Spanish Chocolate (1840); Gofio, Mojo (1966)
Message-ID: <MON.21.JUN.2004.005455.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PUCHERO, SPANISH CHOCOLATE

   I spotted this book on the shelf.  OED has 1841 for "puchero," but I've long since destroyed that.


RAMBLES IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF DON QUIXOTE
by the late H. D. Inglis
Philadelphia: Lea & Blanchard
1840

Pg. 13:  On half-hour I employed in executing judgment upon the mosquitos (Pg. 14--ed.) that had tormented me during the night; another, in chatting with a dark eyed damsel of the inn, who was engaged in preparing the ingredients of the _puchero_, and in helping her to strip the _garbanzos_, the large peas so indispensable to a Spanish kitchen; but as it would yet be many hours before the _puchero_ could be ready, I took my hat and walked into the street, where, in a strange town, there is always something fresh to be seen.

Pg. 71:  *The following is the composition of Spanish chocolate: (Pg. 72--ed.) to six pounds of the nut, are added three pounds an a half of sugar; seven pods of vanillas; one pound and a half of Indian corn; half a pound of cinnamon; six cloves; one dram of capsicum; and a small quantity of musk.

Pg. 129:  "...but _la necesidad carece de lay_; necessity has no law."
   "'T is a proverb among all nations," said I.--"You are my guide, Mr. Barber--and to return you proverb for proverb, _Mas sabe el necio en su casa que el cuerdo en la agena_; every man knos his own business best."

---------------------------------------------------------------
GOFIO, MOJO

GOFIO--21,400 Google hits, 1,840 Google Groups hits
GOFIO + CANARY--510 Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits
MOJO + CANARY--3,910 Google hits, 1,770 Google Groups hits


   OED does not have "gofio"?  No Canary "mojo"?  This is the "revised" OED?


(OED)
mojo, n.3
    A sauce or marinade of Cuban origin, containing garlic, olive oil, sour oranges and (freq.) other citrus fruits.
  [1982 N.Y. Times 12 Dec. X. 18/4 Ladi's chefs produce some extremely tasty fish, shrimp and octopus dishes, either cold in salads or mojo (wet) in tomato and onion sauces.] 1983 N.Y. Times (Nexis) 20 Feb. X. 12/1 [Pork] is often served with a red or green pepper mojo sauce. 1986 Daily Express 8 Nov. 25/2 Papas Arrigados..is cooked in salt, wrinkling the skin then doused with a fiery garlic mayonnaise called mojo. 1991 Time 19 Aug. 60/2 Not-too-sweet, no-too-tart salsas, mojos and adobados based on local fruits are vital flavoring ingredients. 1997 Gourmet June 36/2, I therefore get..a fragrant splatter announcing the completion of a garlic-and-citrus mojo (the Cuban sauce for pork and lots of other things). 2000 N.Y. Mag. 3 Jan. 38/2 They share the ceviche sampler, the mussels deliciously perfumed with smoked tomato and garlic chips, seafood paellita, or a mammoth stuffed pork chop with sour-orange mojo.


(GOOGLE)
Something You Didn't Know About Cajuns (Ilenos, Canary Islands)
... juice. It is descendant from the Canary Islands were there are hundreds
of MOJO recipes because the sauce originated there. IS MOJO ...
www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/764212/posts - 39k - Cached - Similar pages


   The following "Planeta Guide" is in a series on regions of Spain; unfortunately, NYU doesn't have all of them.
   You kind of knew that the NEW YORK TIMES (1982) would be beaten on this...Austin Powers has just told me that I shouldn't be giving OED my "mojo."


GRAND CANARY ISLAND
by A. Vazquez-Figueroa
Barcelona: Editorial Planeta
1966

Pg. 30:
_Cuisine._  Canary cooking, with its various delicious, traditional dishes, deserves a section to itself in our guide-book.  It shows marked differences from the style of cooking on the mainland.
   We have already mentioned the food called _gofio_--a mixture of ground, roasted cereals--which formed the islanders' staple diet at the time of the conquest.  Although other types of food have now been added to their normal diet, _gofio_ continues to play an important role in it, combined with bananas, fish, soup, etc.  The traditional breakfast on grand Canary Island is a cup of milky coffee to which a few spoonfuls of _gofio_ have been added.
   Also typical of the Canary Islands are the following dishes: _mojo_ (_mojo picon_ or _mojo colorado_), which is a pungent sauce made with olive oil, vinegar, garlic, pepper, cumin seed, chillis and salt.  Another variation--the green _mojo_ (_mojo verde_)--substitutes parsley for pepper.
   The _puchero_, or stew, for special occasions is the one known as the "seven-meat stew," or "puchero de las siete carnes," consisting of pork, veal, beef, chicken, rabbit, partridge, and pigeon.
   Potatoes form an important part of the islanders' diet.  The well-known _papas arrugadas_ served with _mojo picon_ is one of their favourite dishes, and they occasionally make it even more appetizing with the addition of _viejas_, a delicious fish considered a delicacy on the Canary Islands.
   Another common dish is the _sancocho_, which consists of dried fish stewed with vegetables and beans, then sprinkled with _gofio_ and served with _mojo picon_.
   Also forming part of the islanders' traditional cooking are pickled partridges and sardines (_perdices y sardinas en escabeche_), veal liver with a sauce made of peppers, stuffed squids, etc.
   The various Spanish regional dishes as well as international cooking are also catered for, and beautifully served.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 21 15:12:17 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:12:17 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Painting=20the=20po?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?rsche?=
Message-ID: <MON.21.JUN.2004.111217.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 5/25/04 11:50:34 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:


> e actually heard "Portia"/"Porsche" puns more often.  The one
> above seems a bit strained to me, not so much because of the one- vs.
> two-syllable issue but the consonant:  "Porch" and "Porsh" sound
> quite different to me, blonde or no blonde.
> 

If the joke has the speaker being drunk, then I guess the confujsion might 
make sense.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 21 15:16:32 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:16:32 -0400
Subject: my second-favorite quotation
In-Reply-To: <893e0f891352.891352893e0f@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.21.JUN.2004.111632.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, George Thompson wrote:

> I believe I have posted before that my second-favorite quotation is from
> Herman Hickman, the early 1950s Yale football coach.  When asked one
> year what his hopes were for the his team, he said that they were the
> same as every year, that the team would play at least well enough to
> keep the alumni sullen but not mutinous.

I think I never found a good source for this.  Do you know of any?  Even a
reasonably early secondary source would be good.

I forget, what is your first-favorite quotation?  My favorite one
currently is Maureen Dowd's "Why is all this a surprise again? I know our
hawks avoided serving in Vietnam, but didnt they, like, read about it?"

Fred


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET  Mon Jun 21 19:18:10 2004
From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:18:10 -0400
Subject: my second-favorite quotation
Message-ID: <MON.21.JUN.2004.151810.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Hickman quotation and the following from Jake Gaither have  been two of
my favorites. Gaither said (as best I can recall),"A lineman ought to be
agile, mobile, and hostile." I've always thought he should have included
"and el-i-gi-bile".

Bob
You do not reason a man out of something he was not reasoned into ---
Jonathon Swift
People are entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts---Anon.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: my second-favorite quotation


> On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, George Thompson wrote:
>
> > I believe I have posted before that my second-favorite quotation is from
> > Herman Hickman, the early 1950s Yale football coach.  When asked one
> > year what his hopes were for the his team, he said that they were the
> > same as every year, that the team would play at least well enough to
> > keep the alumni sullen but not mutinous.
>
> I think I never found a good source for this.  Do you know of any?  Even a
> reasonably early secondary source would be good.
>
> I forget, what is your first-favorite quotation?  My favorite one
> currently is Maureen Dowd's "Why is all this a surprise again? I know our
> hawks avoided serving in Vietnam, but didnt they, like, read about it?"
>
> Fred
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Jun 21 21:00:17 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:00:17 -0400
Subject: BE "front off"
Message-ID: <MON.21.JUN.2004.170017.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

HDAS defines "front v. 2." as "to act as a front (for someone)" and
goes on to note: "3. Esp. Black E. a. to put up a front of self
assurance; put up a bluff, esp. as part of a confidence game. - also
constr. with off."

In construction with "off," i.e. "to front (someone) off," it also
means "to cause to act as a front or to use as a front (for someone)."
e.g.:  "What you mean, slammin' the door in my face?! You don't own the
place! The white man own the place! He just frontin' your black ass
off!" This is from the 1971 LP, "Craps," by Richard Pryor on the Found
Money label.

In Saint Louis in the 'Fifties, "front (someone) off" meant "to best
someone in the game of insult-swapping" known as "jawing with
(someone)," "joning with (someone)," or "playing the dozens."

-Wilson Gray


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Jun 21 21:30:17 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:30:17 -0400
Subject: my second-favorite quotation
Message-ID: <MON.21.JUN.2004.173017.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred Shapiro asks:
>
> I forget, what is your first-favorite quotation?  My favorite one
> currently is Maureen Dowd's "Why is all this a surprise again? I
> know our
> hawks avoided serving in Vietnam, but didnt they, like, read about
> it?"

Whenever I am asked the time of day, I reply, "the bawdy hand of the dial is upon the very prick of 17 minutes after 5 (or whatever).

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

>


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun 21 23:42:24 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:42:24 -0500
Subject: busking
Message-ID: <MON.21.JUN.2004.184224.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As a new subscriber, I was looking through the archives.  From Thu, 25
May 2000:

> Do others have hard evidence for busk in the US?  More than just
> personal knowledge of the term (which can be misleading)?

>From the magic/conjuring periodical _The New Phoenix_ #330 Oct 1955.

"Jardine Ellis was a sort of busking magician.  He would go to
some cafeteria in the afternoon and look for a likely prospect."

An electronic search also found "buskin":  "Frank Garcia back in the
magic fold again picking up the magic wand and doffing the buskin."
(_The Phoenix_ #253 18 April 1952)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 22 01:31:01 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:31:01 -0400
Subject: Tar Beach (1940)
Message-ID: <MON.21.JUN.2004.213101.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TAR BEACH--11,300 Google hits, 281 Google Groups hits

   A request came in for "Tar Beach."  I don't have the HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG handy because, of course, that volume is not out.
   A quick search of the usual databases finds the first real hit in the New York Times.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
AN EDEN IS FOUND ON EAST SIDE ROOF; Bachelor Grows Tomatoes, Peas, Petunias All Together in a Tenement Setting IT'S CALLED 'TAR BEACH' There's One Big Problem Now Facing This Amateur-Is the Corn Ready to Eat?
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 30, 1941. p. 11 (1 page) :
   PHOTO CAPTION:  William H. Geis at work on his flower and vegetable garden atop his home at 137 East Thirty-third Street.
   (OT: See ADS-L archives for "Thirty-Third and Third" or "toidy toid 'n toid"--ed.):
   Bamboo screens shut out the view of neighboring tenements, but the Empire State and Chrysler Buildings can be seen by any one resting on the comfortable deck chairs of the roof garden.  Cocoa matting lines the floor, whose composition gave inspiration for the name of the retreat, "Tar Beach."

GIRL IN A BIKINI SUIT AVENGED FOR SNARL
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 6, 1952. p. 39 (1 page):
   Two patrolmen went hunting on the "tar beaches" of the Bronx yesterday and in the line of duty captured a twenty-five-pound opossum.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Greetings from Tar Beach: Almost an Obs. Report [Long]
... tale for another time). The rooftop was quite a treat, and the name tar beach is what city kids are known to call them. For you see ...
sci.astro.amateur - Jun 19, 2001 by William R. Meyers - View Thread (2 articles)

Re: Raised Ponds
... Country. Also The Botanical Gardens. Tar Beach was the Roof and Johnny pumps with a trash can on it was how we cooled of then. Now ...
rec.ponds - Jul 13, 2002 by APV206 at webtv.net - View Thread (26 articles)

Re: John Sebastion?
... I also have an album called 'Tar Beach' for the early '90's which is classic melodic Sebastian type folky pop. I think it's quite good. ...
rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic - Apr 10, 2002 by Leonardo - View Thread (13 articles)

Re: OT: Do you remember?
... Stoop ball and stick ball.(I think a home run was 2 sewers). The "Tar beach".(you went up to the roof on a hot day inflated a rubber pool and went for a dip). ...
alt.sport.bowling - Sep 28, 2000 by Joe Zachar - View Thread (87 articles)


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Tar Beach /
Author: Getz, Arthur.
Publication: New York : Dial Press, 1979
Document: English : Book : Fiction : Juvenile audience

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Title: Don't suppose
Author(s): Limahl. ; (Performer - prf)
Publication: Hayes, Middlesex, England :; EMI Records Ltd.,
Year: 1984
Description: 1 sound disc :; analog, 33 1/3 rpm, stereo. ;; 12 in.
Language: English
Standard No: Publisher: EJ-2401561; EMI Records Ltd.; PLML-1; EMI Records Ltd.; LCCN: 93-851770
Contents: Don't suppose -- That special something -- Your love -- Too much trouble -- Never ending story -- Only for love -- I was a fool -- The waiting game -- Tar Beach -- Oh girl.

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
On tar beach
Corp Author: Dead Beats (Musical group) Publication: France :; New Rose, 1985
Document: English : Sound Recording : Music : Rock music :

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Tar Beach & beyond /
Author: Reuben, Charles, 1957-
Publication: Albuquerque, N.M. (1308 Orchard Pl. NW, Albuquerque 87104) : Autumn Press, 1989
Document: English : Book

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Tar beach, the woman on the bridge series
Author: Ringgold, Faith. Publication: [S.l.] : CRIZMAC Art and Cultural Education Materials, 1990-1995?
Document: English : Visual Material : Artwork reproduction
Libraries Worldwide: 2

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Tar Beach /
Author: Elman, Richard M.
Publication: Los Angeles : Sun & Moon Press, 1991
Document: English : Book : Fiction

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Tar Beach /
Author: Ringgold, Faith.
Publication: New York : Crown Publishers, 1991
Document: English : Book : Fiction : Juvenile audience

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Tar Beach
Author: Sebastian, John, 1944- Publication: [Newton, NJ.] :; Shanachie, 1992
Document: English : Sound Recording : Music : Multiple forms :


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark TAR BEACH
Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 025. US 039. G & S: Shirts, Sweatpants and Shorts. FIRST USE: 19810616. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19810720
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 73341421
Filing Date December 14, 1981
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition May 17, 1983
Supplemental Register Date March 7, 1983
Registration Number 1238973
Registration Date May 17, 1983
Owner (REGISTRANT) Goldberg; Howard d.b.a. Aumont Productions INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES Crescent Beach Rd. Glen Cove NEW YORK 11542
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register SUPPLEMENTAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Cancellation Date October 3, 1989


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
  Marion Star  Thursday, August 08, 1940 Marion, Ohio
...for his hobby in his visits to the TAR BEACHES. wood, fourth; three-galled..
Pg. 9, col. 3:
_RETURN FROM TRIP_
   Rev. M. L. Buckley and daughter Dorothy of 454 Bellefontaine avenue have returned from an extensive motor tour through the west.  Leaving here July 6, they covered 8,500 miles, visiting Salt Lake City, Grand, Bryce and Zion canyons, spent several days in Los Angeles, San Francisco where they attended the World's Fair, toured Hollywood and other points of interest in California.  Later they went to Washington, returning home by way of the Black Hills.  Rev. Nuckley who is making a study of archaeology found a great deal of material for his hobby in his visits to the tar beaches.

(Not really a good hit, IMHO--Barry Popik)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 22 06:31:50 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 02:31:50 EDT
Subject: Cemitas & Papalo; Life's a Beach (1984); Pina Colada (1950);
 Consumer Program
Message-ID: <TUE.22.JUN.2004.023150.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CEMITAS & PAPALO
  
CEMITAS--233 Google hits, 65 Google Groups hits
PAPALO + HERB--104 Google hits, 20 Google Groups hits
   (Neither "cemita" nor "papalo" is in the OED)
      
   I just finished watching "Secret Life of the Sandwich" on the Food 
Network.  I learned a few things. 
   I learned that the "peanut butter and jelly sandwich" was probably 
invented during World War II.  I learned that the "BLT" is never mentioned.  I 
learned that, if you host a show like this, you can step into the Stage Deli in NYC 
and take up ten minutes' air time of a thirty minute show to describe "your" 
sandwich.  I learned that I should never waste my time watching the Food 
Network or I'll go mad.
   "Secret Life of Popcorn" is coming soon--maybe Andy Smith is on 
that...There's a "hot dog" show airing again on July 5th, if Gerald Cohen wants to go 
mad.
   I mentioned "cemita" (a Mexican sandwich from Puebla) once before on 
ADS-L..  There was the following nice write-up in last Wednesday's NEW YORK DAILY 
NEWS food section.  "Cemita" and "papalo" are not yet in the Proquest LOS 
ANGELES TIMES (now at 1964), but they'll appear somewhat soon.
  
  
(NY DAILY NEWS)
http://www.nydailynews.com/06-16-2004/city_life/food/story/203102p-175256c.htm
l
Mexico's street sub         
A cemita plays its roll in the round    
By RACHEL WHARTON 
    
Tortas, we love you, but there's another Mexican sandwich that's winning our 
hearts. Called a cemita, it's bigger, rounder and, sadly, a little harder to 
find throughout the city. 
  
Named for its circular, slightly sweet roll, cemitas are stacked with meats, 
cheese and chilies, and are a classic street snack from the state of Puebla in 
central Mexico. They most likely get their name from acemite, a Spanish word 
referring to wheat flour.
  
"There are two things that distinguish cemitas from other sandwich-type 
foods, and from tortas," says Karen Hursh Graber, food editor of the Web site 
Mexico Connect (mexconnect.com) and an author of regional Mexican cookbooks. "One 
is the roll itself, which is chewy, with a hard crust covered with sesame 
seeds. The other is the herb papalo, which is pungent and is definitely the 
distinguishing taste of cemitas."
  
Around town, you can get cemitas for $3 to $5 in Mexican neighborhoods such 
as Sunset Park, Brooklyn, where many hail from Puebla. Several small 
restaurants make and sell their own rolls, which are crowned with a small topknot. You 
can find the all-important papalo, tasting a bit like cilantro on steroids, at 
the corner bodegas.
  
Once you've got the basics, cemitas are open to interpretation. Most begin 
with a layer of white, salty shredded string cheese called quesilla, a whole 
chipotle pepper or pickled jalapeños and sliced avocado and onion. 
  
Next, they're stuffed with all manner of fillings, including spicy pork, 
steak, chicken or the traditional Milanesa - steak pounded paper-thin, breaded and 
fried until crispy. You'll also find them with potatoes, refried beans or 
lengua (cow's tongue) and patas (pickled pig's feet).
  
Those who've tried them find them unforgettable. "They are the food that I 
crave most constantly, and I always head to the market to get one as soon as I 
arrive in Puebla," says Marilyn Tausend, the author of many revered Mexican 
cookbooks and the head of Culinary Adventures, which leads food tours of Mexico. 
  
In Puebla, says Tausend, the cemitas are usually sold in markets; one in 
particular in Puebla has stall after stall of them, "with clusters of metal chairs 
and tables around so people can enjoy them at their leisure. I've been 
addicted ever since I had my first bite many, many years ago."
  
If you want to give cemitas a try, here's where to find them:
Del Valle Restaurant & Deli, 665 10th Ave. (between 46th and 47th Sts.), 
cemitas weekends only, (212) 262-5173 
La Flor Bakery, 40-21 Fifth Ave., Brooklyn (718) 633-1254
Los Compadres Deli and Bakery, 58-07 Fifth Ave., Brooklyn, no phone.
  
     Papalo: Soul of a sandwich
In addition to its round roll, a cemita is defined by the little-known herb 
papalo, which can be found in several Hispanic markets in town (including 
Juquilita Grocery, 4216 Fifth Ave., Brooklyn). Its name hails from the words papa 
lotl, or butterfly, from the Aztec dialect still spoken in Puebla. Grown in hot 
climates, the plant has round leaves, a pungent scent and a strong flavor. 
It's sometimes found in vases on tables in Mexico, so the leaves can be torn off 
and sprinkled on dishes before they're eaten. You can try it in salsas or 
guacamole, too.
  
The basic cemita
Serves 11 cemita roll, split horizontally and toasted (or substitute a 
high-quality, chewy, seeded hamburger roll) 
4-5 ¼-inch slices of avocado, cut lengthwise
3-4 large papalo leaves (May substitute cilantro or epazote, but papalo is 
best.)
1 whole chipotle pepper in adobo 
Filling of your choice, such as spicy pork, steak, shredded chicken, 
pan-fried potatoes or refried beans
3-4 thin slices of white onion
3 ounces quesilla cheese, or another string cheese, shreddedBuild sandwiches 
by layering the avocado, papalo, chili pepper and filling, topping it with the 
onions and cheese. 

Originally published on June 15, 2004   

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
LIFE'S A BEACH
  
   For those whose summer etymologies just can't end with "tar beach," I 
re-checked this one.
 
(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   LIFE'S A BEACH  
Goods and Services  (CANCELLED) IC 025. US 039. G & S: Sportswear-Namely, 
Slacks, Shorts, T-Shirts, Shirts, Swimwear and Beach Coverups. FIRST USE: 
19840222. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19840222   
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING   
Serial Number   73484377    
Filing Date June 11, 1984   
Current Filing Basis    1A  
Original Filing Basis   1A  
Published for Opposition    February 26, 1985   
Registration Number 1334439 
Registration Date   May 7, 1985 
Owner   (REGISTRANT) Life's A Beach, Inc. CORPORATION ILLINOIS 132 S. Oak 
Park Ave. Oak Park ILLINOIS 60302   
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED 
Attorney of Record  Basil E. Demeur 
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK   
Register    PRINCIPAL   
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD    
Cancellation Date   February 19, 1992   
  
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Other 9 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 19, 1985. p. B10 (1 
page) 
(A name of a horse--ed.)
    
    2.  Display Ad 302 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 29, 1986. p. L_I_17 (1
 page) 
     
    3.  Beachy Keen
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Mar 15, 1987. p. 
SM19 (1 page)     
    
    
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
   Frederick Post   Thursday, November 21, 1985 Frederick, Maryland     
...WeAther Weii As You Know LIFE'S A BEACH (XmAs Hits) AND THEN YOU BUY 
Hurry..   
 
   Frederick Post   Saturday, November 23, 1985 Frederick, Maryland     
...WeAther Well As You Know LIFE'S A BEACH (XmAs Hits) AND THEN YOU BUY 
Hurry..   
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PINA COLADA
  
   OED is nearing this entry, and I don't think that I posted this.  It's 
more than just "strained pineapple" here.  I provided the Cuban 1922 citation 
that MERRIAM-WEBSTER now uses.
   I re-checked for the LOS ANGELES TIMES, but there's nothing there yet.
  
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    AT THE BAR
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 16, 1950. p. XX3 (1 
page):
   Drinks in the West Indies range from Martinique's famous rum [unch to 
Cuba's _pina colada_ (rum, pineapple and coconut milk).  Key West has a variety of 
lime swizzles and punches, and Granadians use nutmeg in their rum drinks.  
Cubans and Puerto Ricans make a variety of tasty and exotic fruit beverages,  
These include _guanabana_ (soursop juice), _fruta bomba_ (papaya), watermelon 
juice, muskmelon juice and a drink of almond blended with banana juice.
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
CONSUMER PROGRAMMING=INFOMERCIALS
  
   From "PRIME TIME" by Phil Mushnick, SUNDAY NEW YORK POST, TV WEEK, 20 June 
2004, pg. 12, col. 3:
  
   Those who study the cable TV industry begin to recognize that it has a 
language all its own, one that makes good sound bad and bad sound good.
(...)
(Col. 4.  "Vertical integration" and "overbuild" are discussed--ed.)
   Now there's a new phrase being thrown around--"Consumer programming."  
Sounds lovely, even helpful, but it's just a nice way of saying infomercials.   


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 22 19:48:45 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:48:45 -0400
Subject: "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins@US.ARMY.MIL>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.JUN.2004.154845.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL> wrote:

        >>>
As a new subscriber, I was looking through the archives.  From Thu, 25
May 2000:

> Do others have hard evidence for busk in the US?  More than just
> personal knowledge of the term (which can be misleading)?

>>From the magic/conjuring periodical _The New Phoenix_ #330 Oct 1955.

"Jardine Ellis was a sort of busking magician.  He would go to
some cafeteria in the afternoon and look for a likely prospect."

An electronic search also found "buskin":  "Frank Garcia back in the
magic fold again picking up the magic wand and doffing the buskin."
(_The Phoenix_ #253 18 April 1952)
        <<<

These are two different words. Busking is performing on the street or in
public, usually for whatever money passersby may give you. To doff the
buskin is to leave the stage; see the following from Oxford English
Dictionary Online:

2. spec. The high thick-soled boot (cothurnus) worn by the actors in ancient
Athenian tragedy; frequently contrasted with the ‘sock’ (soccus), or low
shoe worn by comedians.

1570 LEVINS Manip. 133 A Buskin, cothurnus. 1597 BP. HALL Sat. I. i. 19
Trumpet, and reeds, and socks, and buskins fine. 1663 BP. PATRICK Parab.
Pilgr. xxxiv. (1668) 262 The Play is ended, and the high-heel'd Buskins are
pull'd off. 1763 J. BROWN Poetry & Mus. vi. 119 The Buskin..hightened the
Stature. 1871 MORLEY Crit. Misc. (1886) I. 127 Doff the buskin or the sock,
wash away the paint from their cheeks, and gravely sit down to meat.

b. Hence fig. and transf. The style or spirit of this class of drama; the
tragic vein; tragedy. to put on the buskins: to assume a tragic style; to
write tragedy.


-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 23 00:57:28 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:57:28 -0400
Subject: (dis)agreement with "all politics is local"
Message-ID: <TUE.22.JUN.2004.205728.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

With yesterday's resignation in disgrace of our governor, John
Rowland, the lieutenant governor Jodi Rell will be sworn in soon as
the new governor of Connecticut.  In an interview on tonight's local
news Gov-to-be Rell was asked whether she thought the scandal would
hurt Connecticut Republicans in the upcoming election in November.
She said not to worry, she has always liked the point made by a
Democrat [unidentified, but I assume she had Tip O'Neill in mind],
"All politics is local".  She went on to say that while the grammar
was bad, she agreed with the sentiment--voters will decide on their
local state senate races and so on based on the individuals, etc.

For Rell, "politics" is evidently a collective plural, so that it
really *should* have been "All politics are local" instead.  Or is it
the "all" that she thinks makes it plural?  Would we say "All
linguistics are tricky"?  "All mathematics are hard"?  (Note that
it's not purely a formal question --while it is indeed possible to
have "all statistics are biased", that's a real count noun, the
singular "that statistic is biased" being impeccable as well.)

Checking google, I find that Gov-to-be Rell is far from alone.
Indeed, there are 3040 hits on "All politics are local" to 13000 for
"All politics is local", although presumably not everyone in the
former camp would share the view that the singular represents bad
grammar.  I just hadn't realized the plural here was as popular as it
appears to be.

Larry


From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM  Wed Jun 23 01:09:19 2004
From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:09:19 -0400
Subject: (dis)agreement with "all politics is local"
Message-ID: <TUE.22.JUN.2004.210919.0400.ABARAGONA@SPRYNET.COM>

>
> Checking google, I find that Gov-to-be Rell is far from alone.
> Indeed, there are 3040 hits on "All politics are local" to 13000 for
> "All politics is local", although presumably not everyone in the
> former camp would share the view that the singular represents bad
> grammar.  I just hadn't realized the plural here was as popular as it
> appears to be.

I remember back in the mid-1960's, former Pittsburgh Pirate Wilbur "Vinegar
Bend" Mizell was running for Congress in N.C. (his main qualifications
apparently being that he was a left handed pitcher and a right wing
Republican) and sent out a campaign brochure in which he said he'd been
warned by a friend that "politics are dirty business."  And he still won!

Alan B.


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Jun 23 03:49:35 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas Wilson)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 23:49:35 -0400
Subject: (dis)agreement with "all politics is local"
Message-ID: <TUE.22.JUN.2004.234935.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> For Rell, "politics" is evidently a collective plural, so that it
> really *should* have been "All politics are local" instead.  Or is it
> the "all" that she thinks makes it plural?  Would we say "All
> linguistics are tricky"?  "All mathematics are hard"?  (Note that
> it's not purely a formal question --while it is indeed possible to
> have "all statistics are biased", that's a real count noun, the
> singular "that statistic is biased" being impeccable as well.)

For most folks, I suppose things which look like plurals are treated as
plurals; e.g., "species" is transparently the plural of "specie" (as in
"endangered specie") which I suppose is by far the most frequent sense of
"specie" among the post-literati on the Web.

I suppose in principle it could be that "politics" is being treated as an
uncountable but grammatically plural item such as "wastes", "dregs",
"refinery bottoms", "mine tailings", etc. The company seems right. (^_^)

What about "polemics"? Or "histrionics"? Hmm, not so easy, at least for me.

-- Doug Wilson


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 23 04:21:49 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:21:49 -0400
Subject: (dis)agreement with "all politics is local"
In-Reply-To: <1901.199.106.92.32.1087962575.squirrel@webmail.nb.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.002149.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"refinery bottoms", "mine tailings", etc. The company seems right. (^_^)
>
>What about "polemics"? Or "histrionics"? Hmm, not so easy, at least for me.
>
True, for me those pretty much have to be collective plurals.   So I
guess it's not the availability of a singular, but the reference.  In
fact, I think "polemics" or "histrionics" if taken to mean the study
(rather than the practice) of argumentation or the science of how to
act over the top (rather than instances of doing so) would be
singular too--"Histrionics is one of my hardest subjects in drama
school".

larry


From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU  Wed Jun 23 09:07:25 2004
From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 05:07:25 -0400
Subject: Parachute journalism, parachute militantism
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.050725.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm looking for the earliest uses of "parachute journalism" and its sister
phrases in both English and French. It means jumping into a situation in
which you have little experience and then speaking as if you know it all.
(Hm, sounds like grad school.) I imagine it was coined in one of the two
languages during a war. Could you help me out with your own lexicography or
point me to helpful research tools?

During my research on student-worker miscommunication in France in Mar
1968, I found that the workers used "parachutists" to refer to students,
Maoists and Trotskists who didn't understand the workers' history but told
them what to do. Farmers called such people "comets" because they came,
burned with enthusiasm and vanished--never to return. (See Kristin Ross,
_May 68 and Its Afterlives_, 2002, p. 112.)

As a journalism student, I became familiar with "parachute journalism," or
superficial reporting. War journalists who were sent from the home office
after the first shots were fired in a foreign country were compared to
journalists who had been at the foreign office for years before war broke
out. (See _Of the Press, by the Press, for the Press (and Others, Too)_,
Washington Post, 1974.)

Were the French workers in May 1968 borrowing a term made popular in a
specific war (conscious of its connotations) or was it already a cliche
with a forgotten history? Was the war recent, as in World War II or later?
Did it come from French, English or another language?

Thanks for your help,
Carolina
Journalism & French Studies master's candidate, NYU


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Wed Jun 23 11:45:52 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 07:45:52 -0400
Subject: (dis)agreement with "all politics is local"
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.074552.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Laurence Horn laurence.horn at YALE.EDU

<snip>

: For Rell, "politics" is evidently a collective plural, so that it
: really *should* have been "All politics are local" instead.  Or is it
: the "all" that she thinks makes it plural?  Would we say "All
: linguistics are tricky"?  "All mathematics are hard"?  (Note that
: it's not purely a formal question --while it is indeed possible to
: have "all statistics are biased", that's a real count noun, the
: singular "that statistic is biased" being impeccable as well.)

For me, the 'all' clearly plays a role. Consider, based entirely on personal
intuitions:

Politics is/*are local
Linguistics is/*are tricky
Mathematics is/*are hard

(I'm curious what British English intuitions are for 'Maths is/are hard',
though.)

Oddly, this pair:

Statistics *is/are biased
Statistics is/*are useful

So, apparently, there's a difference for me between different uses of a
single such term. Consider:

Politics is/are dirty

(Where whether you use the 'is' or 'are' depends on what you want 'politics'
to mean--the concept/process in general ('is') or political process*es*,
such as campaigning, lawmaking, &c.

Interestingly, i can't think of any sentences where i'd accept 'are' to go
along with bare 'linguistics' or 'mathematics' (or 'math', FTM). However,
upon adding 'all' to the mix:

All politics ?is/are local
All linguistics is/*are tricky
All mathematics is/?are hard
All statistics *is/are biased
All statistics is/are useful
All politics is/are dirty

Basically, you put 'all' in front of one of these, and except for
'linguistics' (which may be different due to excessive familiarity), 'are'
becomes at least marginally acceptable.

<snip>

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Jun 23 13:06:20 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:06:20 -0400
Subject: (dis)agreement with "all politics is local"
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.090620.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Doug Wilson writes:

>For most folks, I suppose things which look like plurals are treated as
>plurals; e.g., "species" is transparently the plural of "specie" (as in
>"endangered specie") which I suppose is by far the most frequent sense of
>"specie" among the post-literati on the Web.
~~~~~~~~~~
And then there is the "many kudos" garnered by so-&so.   "Kudos heaped"
could of course be read either way, but I usually sense that /kudos/
feels countable to the speaker.
A. Murie


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun 23 15:35:01 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:35:01 -0400
Subject: More re: Query: "book" = leave, run away
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.113501.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW I've always viewed this meaning of "book" as being derived from
BE  onomatopoetic baby-talk "bookity-bookity" (cf. literary
"buckety-buckety"), the sound of the hoofbeats of a running horse.

-Wilson Gray


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun 23 16:04:06 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:04:06 -0400
Subject: Boody
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.120406.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 >"My boody and my cookie and my titi hurt."


I don't know 'cookie' or 'titi' but in my boyhood 'boody'/'booty' was an
exact equivalent of 'ass': e.g., "I got a piece of boody", "I'll kick
your
boody", "Up your boody", etc., etc. -- that is, with the sense of
'vulva'/'sex' as well as that of 'buttocks'/'anus'. I always assumed
this
was a corruption of 'body'. It's still current, but I'm not sure of the
exact sense usually. The song says "Shake your boody", doesn't it? What
is
it -- precisely -- that one is being encouraged to shake?


The word appears in Chapman's dictionary and in Spears'. Perhaps it is
largely a 'black' word as Chapman indicates.


-- Doug Wilson


I learned both the word "boody" with almost all of the meanings
supplied above in 1942, when I was in the first grade, i.e. "ass, butt,
buttocks," etc. Since I was pre-adolescent, the sexual references meant
nothing. For example, there was the rhyme:

Wint downtown to see Miss Moody.
Paid two cint to see her boody.
Boody so black, couldn't see the crack.
Axed Miss Moody for my two cint back.

Although "crack" is ambiguous in this context, in the first grade, I
understood it to refer uniquely to Miss Moody's butt crack.

Note the implied self-hatred wrt skin color.

BTW, has anyone else heard "plumber('s) split" used for ass/butt crack?

-Wilson Gray


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun 23 18:03:25 2004
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:03:25 -0400
Subject: double a-prefixing?
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.140325.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from my files:

08/19/88

youngish Knoxville area native (as she was giving a pedicure) on the
telephone - to a child?:

"I'm a feet a-scrapin'."

Bethany


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Wed Jun 23 18:22:59 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:22:59 -0400
Subject: The second syllable of "little, cattle, subtle"
In-Reply-To: <200406210150.ANF12097@mirapointmr4.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.142259.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20040623/f314c6f3/attachment.html>

From patty at CRUZIO.COM  Wed Jun 23 19:39:23 2004
From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:39:23 -0700
Subject: Boody
In-Reply-To: <F4165F8B-C52E-11D8-BA54-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.123923.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hello folks - I always thought it was 'booty' not 'boody'.  I can't recall
any of my friends pronouncing this with a 'd' sound - we are on the west
coast.  I also have never associated 'up your booty' with 'vulva'/'sex'
only with 'ass'.  I have never heard of "plumber('s) split" before.

Patty


At 09:04 AM 6/23/04, you wrote:
> >"My boody and my cookie and my titi hurt."
>
>
>I don't know 'cookie' or 'titi' but in my boyhood 'boody'/'booty' was an
>exact equivalent of 'ass': e.g., "I got a piece of boody", "I'll kick
>your
>boody", "Up your boody", etc., etc. -- that is, with the sense of
>'vulva'/'sex' as well as that of 'buttocks'/'anus'. I always assumed
>this
>was a corruption of 'body'. It's still current, but I'm not sure of the
>exact sense usually. The song says "Shake your boody", doesn't it? What
>is
>it -- precisely -- that one is being encouraged to shake?
>
>
>The word appears in Chapman's dictionary and in Spears'. Perhaps it is
>largely a 'black' word as Chapman indicates.
>
>
>-- Doug Wilson
>
>
>I learned both the word "boody" with almost all of the meanings
>supplied above in 1942, when I was in the first grade, i.e. "ass, butt,
>buttocks," etc. Since I was pre-adolescent, the sexual references meant
>nothing. For example, there was the rhyme:
>
>Wint downtown to see Miss Moody.
>Paid two cint to see her boody.
>Boody so black, couldn't see the crack.
>Axed Miss Moody for my two cint back.
>
>Although "crack" is ambiguous in this context, in the first grade, I
>understood it to refer uniquely to Miss Moody's butt crack.
>
>Note the implied self-hatred wrt skin color.
>
>BTW, has anyone else heard "plumber('s) split" used for ass/butt crack?
>
>-Wilson Gray


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Wed Jun 23 20:05:25 2004
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:05:25 -0400
Subject: Tangent -- Re: Boody
In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20040623123522.02953eb0@mail.cruzio.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.160525.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Nextel is now running a commercial where the "late-night booty call" is now
a "late-night booty chirp."

Kathleen E. Miller

(And my new Eudora 6.1 just gave me a three-chili pepper warning that
sending this message might get my "keyboard washed out with soap" and told
me I need to "tone it down." I'm being censured by a computer program!!!)


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Jun 24 01:46:29 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:46:29 -0400
Subject: "Dry run" = "rehearsal" (1940)
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.214629.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From ProQuest:

----------

_New York Times_, 23 Nov. 1940: p. 7:

<<CAMP UPTON, L. I., Nov. 22 -- A combination dress and undress rehearsal
-- a "dry run," in Army parlance -- was staged by officers here today.>>

----------

Michael Quinion's latest mailing mentioned this expression.

-- Doug Wilson


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 24 02:51:29 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:51:29 -0400
Subject: Boody
In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20040623123522.02953eb0@mail.cruzio.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.225129.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:39 PM -0700 6/23/04, Patty Davies wrote:
>Hello folks - I always thought it was 'booty' not 'boody'.  I can't recall
>any of my friends pronouncing this with a 'd' sound - we are on the west
>coast.  I also have never associated 'up your booty' with 'vulva'/'sex'
>only with 'ass'.  I have never heard of "plumber('s) split" before.
>
>Patty
>
For what it's worth--for me, and I suspect many other speakers of
different regional varieties of AmEng, "boody" and "booty" (not to
mention "bootie") would be homonyms.  Are they really distinguished
(in non-careful speech) on the West Coast?  If so, do they involve
different degrees of voicing or flapping, or different vowels?  None
of those possibilities match my recollections of alveolars in this
position.  (Curiously, I don't seem to be able to come up with an
actual pair of -d-/-t- homonyms in this exact position, in the manner
of "ladder"/"latter", but perhaps "Rudy"/"Rootie" would work, for
those who remember Rootie Kazootie.)

Larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Jun 24 04:09:11 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:09:11 -0400
Subject: Boody
In-Reply-To: <p04320407bcfff07dd33f@[130.132.245.185]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.000911.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>For what it's worth--for me, and I suspect many other speakers of
>different regional varieties of AmEng, "boody" and "booty" (not to
>mention "bootie") would be homonyms.

At least near-homonyms. I'm ignorant of the fine points of the phonetics,
but I recall Larry Trask making an objection to wholesale assignment of /d/
to an Am.Eng. intervocalic "t" sound (IIRC proposed for OED and used in
MW3). I would say that in rapid speech without any contextual clues I would
be unable to distinguish "Adam" from "atom" as many US-ans pronounce them,
but in my dialect I believe that they are distinct at least sometimes; I
would not consider writing a poem rhyming "moody" with "cootie" or "atom"
with "madam". I believe in my careful speech this "d" sound is more
anterior (front) and longer than the "t"; maybe the distinction is not
always primarily one of voicedness or aspiration.

When I heard "boody"/"booty" in my youth, I had no doubt that it had /d/
and not /t/. Of course I never saw this in print (IIRC) until much later
(probably about 1990), and then I saw "booty". Had the /d/ sounded
ambiguous to me I'm sure I would have taken it to be "booty" when I first
heard it (a recognizable word in another sense). It is possible that a /t/
was replaced with a /d/ somewhere along the line, perhaps in a dialect
where they are homonyms.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 24 04:14:45 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:14:45 EDT
Subject: 88 bottles of beer on the wall (1966)
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.001445.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

_BROOKLYN BREWS_  Brooklyn bands and brews join together at the beer garden
of the Brooklyn Historical Society.  The Brooklyn Brewery sponsors the weekly
event, which this week features live music from the band Valeze.  The event
accompanies "100 Bottles of Beer on the Wall: Brewing in Brooklyn," which
examines the role of Brooklyn as an important center of beer production from 1870
until the 1970s.
--NEW YORK SUN, Calendar, 23 June 2004, pg. 15, col. 4.

   Seriously, what is the origin of that stupid song?  And will it make any
"song" entry in the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA ON FOOD AND DRINK IN AMERICA, right up
there with "Cheeseburger in Paradise" and "I'm Your Candy Man"?
   We've discussed the regional variations of "if one of those bottles should
happen to fall" against "take one down, pass it around."  This is generally
regarded as a summer camp song, but from where?


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Let Front Seat Driver Suffer in Silence
By Erma Bombeck. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington,
D.C.: Nov 18, 1966. p. D8 (1 page):
   THINK OF THE beauty of being able to look in the rear view mirror and see
tear-streaked faces with mouths open, but no sound; Girl Scouts singing "88
bottles of beer on the wall," but no sounds;...

    2.  Brodhead High's Last Hurrah in Basketball
By GEORGE VECSEYSpecial to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current
file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 19, 1972. p. S7 (1 page)

    3.  Old Oily Ollie
By WILLIAM COLE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 19,
1972. p. BR8 (2 pages)

    4.  99 Cans of Beer on the Wall
Heidi Sinick. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington,
D.C.: Apr 15, 1973. p. PO16 (2 pages)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 Red Bluff Daily News   Friday, May 01, 1970 Red Bluff, California
...SUSAN FERGUSON "ONe hundred BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL ONe hundred
BOTTLES OF.....THE case, say that more than 100 BOTTLES OF hard liquor, 70 cases OF
BEER..

   Post Crescent    Sunday, December 28, 1969 Appleton, Wisconsin
...in THE back seat singing, BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL. I've wrestled
wilh.....temper tantrums in church and hysteria ON THE first day OF school I
wouldn't..

 Daily Times News   Monday, December 29, 1969 Burlington, North Carolina
...back seat singing, "1999 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL." I've wrestled
with.....100% human hair GET A HUGE 11x14 WALL PORTRAIT OF Your Child 38 ONLY
wigs..

 Valley Independent     Tuesday, July 13, 1971 Monessen, Pennsylvania
...Plates" and sing gaily "49 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL." Our children play
a.....a record OF THE last "Get Mama" game. THE kids argued for 75 miles ON
wheTHEr..

 News Journal   Thursday, July 29, 1971 Mansfield, Ohio
...Plates" and sing gaily "49 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL." Our children play
a.....OF THE flash (Jard technique. THE manufacturer OF THE "at home
teacher..

 Lima News  Tuesday, July 20, 1971 Lima, Ohio
...Plates" and sing gaily "49 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL." Our children play
a.....a record OF THE last "Get Mama" game. THE kids argued for 75 miles ON
wheTHEr..


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Jun 24 04:39:36 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:39:36 -0400
Subject: T or D?
In-Reply-To: <p04320407bcfff07dd33f@[130.132.245.185]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.003936.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Recently I saw painted on the rear end of a large truck on the PA Turnpike:
"SEAN DICH SCHPEDAH".

I suppose this is more or less "Sehe[n] dich spaeter", a German literal
translation for "See you later" (I think). I don't know why the spelling
deformities, nor why the truck had this slogan.

Maybe this is another example of confusion between "t" and "d" in speech,
although in what dialect(s)/language(s)/context I'm not sure.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 24 05:20:01 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 01:20:01 EDT
Subject: "Different Strokes for Different Folks" (Cassius Clay, 1966)
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.012001.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I think this newspaper is a recent addition to the database.  We had
previously discussed citations from 1967.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 Great Bend Daily Tribune   Friday, November 11, 1966 Great Bend, Kansas
...today with road DIFFERENT STROKES for DIFFERENT FOLKS." Clay, 24, A It's
paid.....Hutchinson. Garden City, Russell, AND Dodge City AND then only one..
Pg. 6, col. 8:
By Darrell Mack
United Press International
   HOUSTON (UPI)-- (...)
   But back to a la Bob Hope.  Clay, the comedian, said:
   --"I don't have any punch.  I just hit a man so many times he wished I had
a punch."
   --On knockout punches in the Liston, Floyd Patterson and Karl Mildenberger
fights:  "I bot (got?--ed.) different strokes for different folks."


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Jun 24 05:23:57 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 01:23:57 -0400
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
In-Reply-To: <p04320407bcfff07dd33f@[130.132.245.185]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.012357.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here in Pittsburgh, "ignorant" is a word meaning
"rude"/"impolite"/"ill-mannered". No, I don't mean in some borderline
sense, like "ignorant of civilized norms" [although I suppose something
like this was an ancestral/etymological sense] or "rude because of not
knowing any better", I mean pretty much exactly synonymous with "rude" (as
opposed to the usual "ignorant" = "not knowledgeable").

This is not ethnically restricted as far as I can tell, and it does not go
along with a condensed pronunciation like "iggernt" (which association is
suggested in DARE). It is used in careful speech by educated persons
without self-consciousness; it seems to be taken as a "normal, correct" word.

I don't find this sense of "ignorant" in the conventional English
dictionaries. I do find it in the Scots dictionaries.

Perhaps this is another word which is shared by Scotland and Pittsburgh ...
like "slippy" = "slippery" or "redd [up]" = "tidy [up]" or "rift" = "belch".

Is "ignorant" = "rude" widespread in the US? If so, maybe it should be in
the standard dictionaries.

I note that in some contexts it may be difficult to tell whether or not the
word has its conventional meaning of "lacking knowledge". For example in
"These ignorant people are always using bad language" one can't tell
exactly what "ignorant" is supposed to mean. But in Pittsburgh (unlike many
other places AFAIK) one might say (without irony or oxymoron) "He knows
just about everything, but I don't like to talk with him because he's so
ignorant."

Please excuse any undue ignorance on my part.

-- Doug Wilson


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Jun 24 06:12:39 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 02:12:39 -0400
Subject: 88 bottles of beer on the wall (1966)
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.021239.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

13 November 1956  _The News_ Newport(RI)  6/5-6

(Headline)Ten Mugs Of Beer On The Wall--That's Singing Bus Driver's Favorite

<<East Haven, Conn., claims its Michael Vendola is the only singing bus
driver in the world.  Mike leads his busload of kindergarteners in song five
days a week.
   Mike started the tuneful trips to school in 1953 when he noticed most of
his passengers were crying becauses they didn't want to go to school.  So he
cheered them up by singing and he has been at it ever since.
   And, oh, yes, one of the tots' favorite tunes, says MIke, is a song
called "Ten Mugs of Beer on the wall." >>

Sam Clements
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 12:14 AM
Subject: 88 bottles of beer on the wall (1966)


>
>    Seriously, what is the origin of that stupid song?  >    We've
discussed the regional variations of "if one of those bottles should
> happen to fall" against "take one down, pass it around."  This is
generally
> regarded as a summer camp song, but from where?
>
>
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>     1.  Let Front Seat Driver Suffer in Silence
> By Erma Bombeck. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973).
Washington,
> D.C.: Nov 18, 1966. p. D8 (1 page):


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Jun 24 06:19:43 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 02:19:43 -0400
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.021943.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I can't believe I just missed this.  Oh well--

28 July 1955  _Nashua(IA) Reporter_  8/1

<<The ride is bumpy and the buses do not ease the jolts, but the kids don't
mind and engge themselves in joke telling, just conversation or singing.  A
favorite song with the boys seems to be "Ninety-nine bottles of beer on the
wall...."

Using newspaperarchive and "bottles of beer."

Sam Clements


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Jun 24 06:23:32 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 02:23:32 -0400
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.022332.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And, I lied(I'm up too late).  I used "beer on the wall"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <SClements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 2:19 AM
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)


> I can't believe I just missed this.  Oh well--
>
> 28 July 1955  _Nashua(IA) Reporter_  8/1
>
> <<The ride is bumpy and the buses do not ease the jolts, but the kids
don't
> mind and engge themselves in joke telling, just conversation or singing.
A
> favorite song with the boys seems to be "Ninety-nine bottles of beer on
the
> wall...."
>
> Using newspaperarchive and "bottles of beer."
>
> Sam Clements
>


From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Thu Jun 24 09:18:06 2004
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 04:18:06 -0500
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
In-Reply-To: <200406240523.i5O5Nw101109@mx2.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.041806.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
> Here in Pittsburgh, "ignorant" is a word meaning
> "rude"/"impolite"/"ill-mannered". No, I don't mean in some borderline
> sense, like "ignorant of civilized norms" [although I suppose something
> like this was an ancestral/etymological sense] or "rude because of not
> knowing any better", I mean pretty much exactly synonymous with "rude" (as
> opposed to the usual "ignorant" = "not knowledgeable").
<snip>

I've heard it used with this meaning here in the St. Louis metro area; I
don't know whether the people using it were native to the area, but I
strongly suspect so. I haven't heard it often, though.

Jim Parish


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Thu Jun 24 12:54:08 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:54:08 -0400
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
In-Reply-To: <200406240523.ANJ49080@mirapointmr4.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.085408.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:23 AM 6/24/2004, you wrote:
>Is "ignorant" = "rude" widespread in the US? If so, maybe it should be in
>the standard dictionaries.

I've heard it in Carbondale, IL (not far from St. Louis) and, I think, in
Detroit.  I've always assumed it was an innovation, because nobody who used
it was over, maybe, 25.

Geoff


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 24 13:20:10 2004
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 06:20:10 -0700
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
In-Reply-To: <40DA55FE.14137.1C67E691@localhost>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.062010.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have heard "ignorant" used for "rude" here in Utah
as long as I can remember.  Lots of descendants of
Scottish immigrants here, including me, but I can't
say this use of "ignorant" is or is not limited to
that group.


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Thu Jun 24 15:33:06 2004
From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 11:33:06 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: Chicago Tribune: At the end of the day,
 back in the day just means `past']
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.113306.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

hey folks, here's a little reportage on reportage.

Nathan Bierma just did an article on the term 'back in the day' for the
Chicago Trib.  He found me via a discussion on the term here at ADS-L,
from about 3.5 yrs ago, and cited me and Margaret Lee in the article.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi-0406240011jun24,1,4406693.story
is the article, and
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0102D&L=ads-l&P=R2999
is from the original ADS-L discussion

Best,
Drew


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Chicago Tribune: At the end of the day, back in the day just
means `past'
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:51:23 -0500
From: Nathan Bierma <nbierma at booksandculture.com>
To: <nunberg at csli.stanford.edu>, <johnmcw at socrates.berkeley.edu>,
<vand at calvin.edu>
CC: <mlee303 at yahoo.com>, <DrewDanielson at CMU.edu>,       <vanderklippe at gmail.com>

Here's what I came up with for 'back in the day':


--------------------
At the end of the day, back in the day just means `past'
--------------------

By Nathan Bierma
Special to the Tribune

June 24, 2004

CNN anchor Soledad O'Brien once owned a lavender Citroen, she recalled on
the air June 10.

"Wow! That was back in the day," her guest remarked.

"That was so back in the day it's not even funny," O'Brien replied. "I don't
want to talk about it anymore."

Which "day" we are talking about is not always clear, but there has been a
lot of going back to it lately.

This month, all in the same week -- June 14 -- Auto Week wrote that the new
Pontiac GTO "has standard features galore and build quality unheard of back
in the day." Fortune, in an article about airlines, observed, "Back in the
day, bad service was the trade-off for low prices [before higher quality
discount airlines emerged]." Newsweek said Slash, the former guitarist for
Guns N' Roses now strumming with the band Velvet Revolver, "looks exactly as
he did back in the day."

A Nexis search for "back in the day" returns more than 3,500 results for the
first five months of this year, compared with about 2,000 for the same
period in the year 2000 (although Nexis does not distinguish between "the
day" and "those days").

Quarter of a million results

The Google search engine yields more than a quarter of a million results for
"back in the day," five times as many as "back in those days" and 10 times
as many as "back in my day."

The origins of "back in the day" are obscure, but the consensus among
linguists and word watchers participating in The American Dialect Society's
e-mail discussions seems to be that "back in the day" arose from hip-hop
music circa the 1980s.

"I teach at Hampton [Va.] University, an historically black college," writes
linguist Margaret Lee in an interview by e-mail. "I remember my students
using `back in the day' as early as 1984 to refer to the relatively recent
past, but usually a time before they were born. Before that, I remember it
being used occasionally by hip-hop artists in TV interviews in the early
1980's."

"I don't know that it originated in African-American English or hip-hop
speech, but it has certainly gotten currency in those discourse
communities," says Drew Danielson, an administrative assistant at Carnegie
Mellon University in Pittsburgh in an interview by e-mail.

Hip-hop titles

Danielson cites hip-hop songs titled "Back In The Day" by Young MC and Ahmad
in the early 1990s. Recent albums by artists Erykah Badu and Missy Elliot
have tracks called "Back in the Day." Newsday wrote this month that the new
Beastie Boys album features "the same kind of East Coast beats that Run-DMC
and The Sugarhill Gang would have busted out back in the day."

A movie called "Back in the Day," starring rapper Ja Rule, is scheduled to
open later this year.

As the phrase is currently used, "back in the day" seems to have two basic
meanings: "long ago" and "was it really that long ago?"

For the first sense, consider O'Brien and her lavender Citroen. She was
really saying, "That was so long ago it's not even funny." Here, "the day"
serves a shortened form of "the days of my youth" or "the days when lavender
was in style."

"The day" can also mean "heyday," which the American Heritage Dictionary
defines as "the period of greatest popularity, success or power; prime."

Former Detroit Pistons player Rick Mahorn compared the crowds that cheered
his championship team in the late 1980s to those who followed this year's
victorious Pistons. "I remember the crowd being just as loud, just as vocal,
back in the day," he told the Detroit News in a June 15 story.

One quirk of context: when someone uses "back in the day," it's generally a
sign of pleasant nostalgia for days past. If you hear "back in my day," get
ready for a pronouncement on modern moral decline: "Back in my day, kids
respected their elders" carries an overtone very different from "kids
respected their elders back in the day."

Sometimes "the day" isn't really so long ago: "Compared to what it was like
to start your own Web page back in the day, starting a blog is a breeze,"
wrote the Macon [Ga.] Telegraph earlier this year in an article about the
fast-changing Internet.

Younger generations may be latching onto the catchphrase as a rite of
passage, says James Vanden Bosch, English professor at Calvin College in
Grand Rapids, Mich.

"I hear it only from twentysomethings," he says. "It strikes me that this is
early evidence of these youngsters' awareness that they, too, are growing
old, and suddenly their quite recent past -- 7 or 8 years ago -- constitutes
a significant period of time and development."

"It's a way," he adds, "of claiming to be old enough to have an interesting
past already."

----------

Send your comments on words to onlanguage at gmail.com

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/chi-0406240011jun24,1,30744
36.story

Copyright (c) 2004, Chicago Tribune


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Thu Jun 24 17:03:36 2004
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:03:36 -0400
Subject: T or D?
In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040624002930.02f2c240@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.130336.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sounds like a lame attempt to imitate PA German/"Dutch"--in PA, after all.

At 12:39 AM 6/24/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Recently I saw painted on the rear end of a large truck on the PA Turnpike:
>"SEAN DICH SCHPEDAH".
>
>I suppose this is more or less "Sehe[n] dich spaeter", a German literal
>translation for "See you later" (I think). I don't know why the spelling
>deformities, nor why the truck had this slogan.
>
>Maybe this is another example of confusion between "t" and "d" in speech,
>although in what dialect(s)/language(s)/context I'm not sure.
>
>-- Doug Wilson


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 24 19:14:08 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:14:08 -0400
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.151408.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

I don't know what any authorities say but I remember driving everyone within
earshot nuts by singing:

99 bottles of beer on the wall
99 bottles of beer
If one of those bottles should happen to fall
98 bottles of beer on the wall

etc, etc, etc.

Page "If I ever hear that song again I will kill the singer" Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <SClements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 2:23 AM
Subject: Re: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Sam Clements <SClements at NEO.RR.COM>
> Subject:      Re: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> And, I lied(I'm up too late).  I used "beer on the wall"
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sam Clements" <SClements at NEO.RR.COM>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 2:19 AM
> Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
>
>
> > I can't believe I just missed this.  Oh well--
> >
> > 28 July 1955  _Nashua(IA) Reporter_  8/1
> >
> > <<The ride is bumpy and the buses do not ease the jolts, but the kids
> don't
> > mind and engge themselves in joke telling, just conversation or singing.
> A
> > favorite song with the boys seems to be "Ninety-nine bottles of beer on
> the
> > wall...."
> >
> > Using newspaperarchive and "bottles of beer."
> >
> > Sam Clements
> >


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Jun 24 19:20:54 2004
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 12:20:54 -0700
Subject: Boody
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.122054.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Me too, as far as spelling goes, but they would be pronounced the same.  After all, KC and the Sunshine Band would "Shake your Booty." Never occured to me that it had a 'd'.
Fritz, another West Coaster.

>>> patty at CRUZIO.COM 06/23/04 12:39PM >>>
Hello folks - I always thought it was 'booty' not 'boody'.  I can't recall
any of my friends pronouncing this with a 'd' sound - we are on the west
coast.  I also have never associated 'up your booty' with 'vulva'/'sex'
only with 'ass'.  I have never heard of "plumber('s) split" before.

Patty


At 09:04 AM 6/23/04, you wrote:
> >"My boody and my cookie and my titi hurt."
>
>
>I don't know 'cookie' or 'titi' but in my boyhood 'boody'/'booty' was an
>exact equivalent of 'ass': e.g., "I got a piece of boody", "I'll kick
>your
>boody", "Up your boody", etc., etc. -- that is, with the sense of
>'vulva'/'sex' as well as that of 'buttocks'/'anus'. I always assumed
>this
>was a corruption of 'body'. It's still current, but I'm not sure of the
>exact sense usually. The song says "Shake your boody", doesn't it? What
>is
>it -- precisely -- that one is being encouraged to shake?
>
>
>The word appears in Chapman's dictionary and in Spears'. Perhaps it is
>largely a 'black' word as Chapman indicates.
>
>
>-- Doug Wilson
>
>
>I learned both the word "boody" with almost all of the meanings
>supplied above in 1942, when I was in the first grade, i.e. "ass, butt,
>buttocks," etc. Since I was pre-adolescent, the sexual references meant
>nothing. For example, there was the rhyme:
>
>Wint downtown to see Miss Moody.
>Paid two cint to see her boody.
>Boody so black, couldn't see the crack.
>Axed Miss Moody for my two cint back.
>
>Although "crack" is ambiguous in this context, in the first grade, I
>understood it to refer uniquely to Miss Moody's butt crack.
>
>Note the implied self-hatred wrt skin color.
>
>BTW, has anyone else heard "plumber('s) split" used for ass/butt crack?
>
>-Wilson Gray


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 24 20:01:17 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:01:17 -0700
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
In-Reply-To: <200406241215.1bDzGC1Wr3NZFjV0@sparrow>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.130117.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One of my favorite definitions, when I asked someone about recursive
music, was:

99 bottles of beer on the wall
99 bottles of beer
Take one down, put it back up
99 bottles of beer on the wall

Rima


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 24 20:21:44 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:21:44 -0400
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.162144.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

Then, of course, there is:

Take one down and pass it around
98 bottle of beer on the wall.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kim & Rima McKinzey" <rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET>
> Subject:      Re: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> One of my favorite definitions, when I asked someone about recursive
> music, was:
>
> 99 bottles of beer on the wall
> 99 bottles of beer
> Take one down, put it back up
> 99 bottles of beer on the wall
>
> Rima


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun 24 20:29:54 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:29:54 -0400
Subject: double a-prefixing?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0406231402010.11898@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.162954.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is fascinating.  I assume "feet-a-scrapin'" would be construed as a
chunked progressive verb after the first a-prefix (which would also have a
hyphen)?

At 02:03 PM 6/23/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>from my files:
>
>08/19/88
>
>youngish Knoxville area native (as she was giving a pedicure) on the
>telephone - to a child?:
>
>"I'm a feet a-scrapin'."
>
>Bethany


From kebara at COMCAST.NET  Thu Jun 24 21:15:44 2004
From: kebara at COMCAST.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:15:44 -0700
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.141544.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Rima and all:

The version I remember was:

99 bottles of beer on the shelf
99 bottles of beer.
Take one down and pass it around
98 bottles of beer.(etc).

Anne G

>
> One of my favorite definitions, when I asked someone about recursive
> music, was:
>
> 99 bottles of beer on the wall
> 99 bottles of beer
> Take one down, put it back up
> 99 bottles of beer on the wall
>
> Rima


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 24 21:28:12 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:28:12 -0400
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.172812.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

Rude as a word has its origins as do so many words which are invidious, ie.
pagan, clown, villain, lout, bumpkin etc. in the distinction between town
and country.

I hate to suggest that this is a cultural universal but it is as close to
one as any I know.

Those who live in cities are civilized. Those who live outside them are rude
bumpkins, pagans, etc.

When I was growing up in southern Illinois back in the middle ages those of
us who lived in our small town used to use the word "farmer" in order to put
down those who lived on farms as per "He/she is only a fucking farmer."

Of course when we went on to college where we were the bumpkins the epithets
were passed on to us.

If anyone out there is able to discover even one single term of approbation
which is derived from a term which originally meant someone who worked a
farm -- estate owners excepted -- I would love to know about it.

Page Stephens


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 1:23 AM
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
> Subject:      "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> Here in Pittsburgh, "ignorant" is a word meaning
> "rude"/"impolite"/"ill-mannered". No, I don't mean in some borderline
> sense, like "ignorant of civilized norms" [although I suppose something
> like this was an ancestral/etymological sense] or "rude because of not
> knowing any better", I mean pretty much exactly synonymous with "rude" (as
> opposed to the usual "ignorant" = "not knowledgeable").
>
> This is not ethnically restricted as far as I can tell, and it does not go
> along with a condensed pronunciation like "iggernt" (which association is
> suggested in DARE). It is used in careful speech by educated persons
> without self-consciousness; it seems to be taken as a "normal, correct"
word.
>
> I don't find this sense of "ignorant" in the conventional English
> dictionaries. I do find it in the Scots dictionaries.
>
> Perhaps this is another word which is shared by Scotland and Pittsburgh
...
> like "slippy" = "slippery" or "redd [up]" = "tidy [up]" or "rift" =
"belch".
>
> Is "ignorant" = "rude" widespread in the US? If so, maybe it should be in
> the standard dictionaries.
>
> I note that in some contexts it may be difficult to tell whether or not
the
> word has its conventional meaning of "lacking knowledge". For example in
> "These ignorant people are always using bad language" one can't tell
> exactly what "ignorant" is supposed to mean. But in Pittsburgh (unlike
many
> other places AFAIK) one might say (without irony or oxymoron) "He knows
> just about everything, but I don't like to talk with him because he's so
> ignorant."
>
> Please excuse any undue ignorance on my part.
>
> -- Doug Wilson


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Jun 24 22:16:02 2004
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:16:02 -0500
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
In-Reply-To: <054201c45a30$69e8efe0$d6251318@kebara1jab3pmh>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.171602.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That's the version I grew up with, but I have also heard the third line as

If one of those bottle should happen to fall

Barbara

>Rima and all:
>
>The version I remember was:
>
>99 bottles of beer on the shelf
>99 bottles of beer.
>Take one down and pass it around
>98 bottles of beer.(etc).
>
>Anne G
>
>>
>>  One of my favorite definitions, when I asked someone about recursive
>>  music, was:
>>
>>  99 bottles of beer on the wall
>>  99 bottles of beer
>>  Take one down, put it back up
>>  99 bottles of beer on the wall
>>
>>  Rima


From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU  Thu Jun 24 22:16:54 2004
From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:16:54 -0400
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
In-Reply-To: <36a8i8$2k493a@ironman.mail.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.181654.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about salt of the earth?

I grew up in Houston, Texas, not long ago. The country types were Kickers.
They had their own brand of cool, which included silver belt buckles and
the ability to line dance for hours in big ol' boots.

btw, I lived 23 years in Texas and had friends from all parts of the state.
Nobody used ignorant to mean rude. Ignorant sometimes meant stupid. This
use always annoyed me. Had I studied linguistics before college, I might
have been less rigid about "proper" usage.
*************************************************************
"Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children,
practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."
--Rev. Pat Robertson


From kebara at COMCAST.NET  Thu Jun 24 22:42:57 2004
From: kebara at COMCAST.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:42:57 -0700
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.154257.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barbara:

> That's the version I grew up with, but I have also heard the third line as
>
> If one of those bottle should happen to fall

Hmmmmmm. . . . I never heard that version when I was growing up.  There must
be regional variations of one kind or another.
Anne G


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 25 01:57:04 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:57:04 -0400
Subject: "Uptown" v. "downtown" w/meaning: "main shopping district"
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.215704.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Marshall, Texas, my birthplace, the county courthouse stands on the
highest point in town, facing the main shopping district, which is
referred to as "uptown" by the locals. Everyplace else that I've ever
lived - various places in Missouri, California, Illinois, &
Massachusetts, the main shopping district is referred to as "downtown."
So, wrt Marshall, it's obvious that downtown is referred to as "uptown"
because it quite literally is _up_town, as any fool can plainly see.
However, an article in the NYT Travel section noted that, in
Charleston, SC, too, downtown is referred to locally as "uptown," but
provided no further information. Does anyone know how the Charleston
usage came to be?

-Wilson Gray


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Jun 25 02:29:20 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 22:29:20 -0400
Subject: "Uptown" v. "downtown" w/meaning: "main shopping district"
In-Reply-To: <F508E342-C64A-11D8-A8C8-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.222920.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In Marshall, Texas, my birthplace, the county courthouse stands on the
>highest point in town, facing the main shopping district, which is
>referred to as "uptown" by the locals. Everyplace else that I've ever
>lived - various places in Missouri, California, Illinois, &
>Massachusetts, the main shopping district is referred to as "downtown."
>So, wrt Marshall, it's obvious that downtown is referred to as "uptown"
>because it quite literally is _up_town, as any fool can plainly see.
>However, an article in the NYT Travel section noted that, in
>Charleston, SC, too, downtown is referred to locally as "uptown," but
>provided no further information. Does anyone know how the Charleston
>usage came to be?
>
>-Wilson Gray
~~~~~~~~~
There was some discussion of these expressions on this list several years
ago.  You might consult the archives.  I do remember that "uptown" was
found in quite a few places, and that it didn't necessarily relate to
topography.
A. Murie


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun 25 05:18:58 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 01:18:58 -0400
Subject: "Dry run" etymology (speculative)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.011858.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Michael Quinion mentioned "dry run" = "rehearsal" recently.

I believe the phrase probably is unrelated to "dry run" = "dry creek". I
also doubt any relationship to dry humping or dry heaves.

The phrase dates from 1940 as a military term, but I believe the origin was
probably related to fire companies.

"Run" or "fire run" refers to the fire company's response to a fire.

There were also simulated fire fighting exercises, also called "runs",
often done as holiday entertainments, and also competition "runs" between
fire companies. Presumably there were also private practice runs.

In the nomenclature of the competition runs, "wet run" meant "run with
water [passed through the hose]", "dry run" meant "run without water" (the
men went through various evolutions, connecting hose, etc.). No surprise.

I speculate that the same terms ("wet run", "dry run") were also used in
fire company jargon outside the competition context.

Here are examples:

----------

"RUN"

----------

_Stevens Point Daily Journal_ (Stevens Point WI), 3 July 1931: p. 1, col. 3:

<<MORNING FIRE RUN / Both fire companies made a run to the Otto Giese home
... this morning.>>

[This one was a real fire run, not an exhibition or competition run.]

----------

_Sheboygan Press_ (Sheboygan WI), 9 Aug. 1921: p. 1, col. 6:

<<Fire Run Tonight / Promptly at 7:15 this evening the Sheboygan Fire
Department will stage a fire run on N. Eighth street.>>

----------

_Fort Wayne News_ (Fort Wayne IN), 24 June 1914: p. 7(?), col. 1:

<<VOLUNTEER FIREMEN GO TO MEETING THURSDAY / .... / 2:30 p.m. -- Exhibition
run and hose laying contest between Decatur and Bluffton motor trucks.>>

----------

_Stevens Point Daily Journal_ (Stevens Point WI), 20 May 1893: p. 5(?), col. 6:

<<Hose Company No. 1, was out for practice Thursday evening and to try the
new team the city authorities contemplate purchasing. The horses worked
well and the company made a creditable exhibition run from their Engine
House, to a hydrant near M. Wadleigh's residence on Main street.>>

----------

"WET RUN"

----------

_Salem Daily News_ (Salem OH), 6 July 1896: p. 5, col. 2:

<<Wet Run. / The wet run was made by the Fulton hook and ladder company and
the Deluge hose company. The run was made east in Main street to Fawcett's
store where the ladders were raised to the top of the building. The hose
company attached hose to a fire plug and ascending the ladder gave a fine
exhibition.>>

----------

_Morning Oregonian_ (Portland OR), 11 Sep. 1886: p. 4, col. 1:

<<THE FIREMEN. / .... / TO-DAY'S CONTESTS. / State Association Champion
Hose Race -- Open to all; wet run; distance, 200 yards to hydrant; lay 350
feet of hose; ....; attach pipe and throw water.>>

----------

"DRY RUN"

----------

_News_ (Frederick MD), 29 May 1901: p. 3(?), col. 4:

<<FIREMEN'S CONTESTS. / .... / Hose Race. / Not less than fifteen or more
than seventeen men to each company. Dry run, standing start, each team to
be allowed one trial; cart to carry 250 feet of hose, in 50-foot lengths;
distance, 200 yards to hydrant, attach and lay one line of hose 150 feet
from hydrant, break coupling and put on pipe, ... ready for water.>>

----------

_New York Times_, 14 Aug. 1893: p. 1:

<<READY FOR THE FIREMEN / .... / For the dry run, standing start, one trial
will be allowed.>>

----------

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 25 06:33:40 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 02:33:40 EDT
Subject: Crockumentary, Mockumentary, Rockumentary, Shockumentary
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.023340.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CROCKUMENTARY--516 Google hits, 102 Google Groups hits
COCKUMENTARY--348 Google hits, 21 Google Groups hits
ROCKUMENTARY--15,700 Google hits, 5,320 Google Groups hits
SHOCKUMENTARY--5,330 Google hits, 601 Google Groups hits
MOCKUMENTARY--42,900 Google hits, 4,120 Google Groups hits
MOCUMENTARY--9,170 Google hits, 310 Google Groups hits
JOCKUMENTARY--40 Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits
BOCKUMENTARY--4 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
DOCUMENTARY--6,890,000 Google hits, 558,000 Google Groups hits
    
   Michael Moore's film FAHRENHEIT 9/11 has opened nationally this week.  
Some call the film a "documentary," and some have called it a "crockumentary."  
Personally, I agree with Christopher Hitchens' review in SLATE:
  
http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/
  
   "Mockumentary" and "rockumentary" both became popular with THIS IS SPINAL 
TAP (1987), and the other forms soon followed.
   
  
(GOOGLE GROUPS) (recent hits)
Re: The Desperate Censors - Republicans Behind Attack on ... 
... Postwar documentarians gave us the documentary, Rob Reiner gave us the
mockumentary, and Moore initiated a third genre, the crockumentary. ... 
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh - Jun 16, 2004 by Jim Alder - View Thread (38 articles)
  
Re: Moore gets a dose of his own
... documentary; Rob Reiner invented the "mockumentary" with "This is Spinal 
Tap;" and
Michael Moore has now invented the "crockumentary." Actually, "jocularmentary 
... 
mn.general - Jun 5, 2004 by S. Smith - View Thread (65 articles)


(GOOGLE GROUPS) ("crockumentary")
Re: Random Thoughts on "The Documentary"
... Jim, who finally got his "conversation" episode I thought of you as it
was on. CB She was in France but she was also in his crockumentary. ... 
alt.tv.homicide - Jan 9, 1997 by Dave Locke - View Thread (4 articles)
  
Re: African banjo'ish instrument recordings.
... Yeah, I know, but it is an imperfect world. Maybe one of you will come up 
with enough
money to make a big crockumentary about all the banjo types. Joe Wilson 
rec.music.country.old-time - Oct 18, 1996 by Oldtime1 - View Thread (2 
articles)
  
Re: NBC's Prophecy TV Sweeps? Program!
... their own name... I think somebody got tired of the Usenet, and has
begun submitting crockumentary manuscripts to the networks. Jay 
alt.paranet.ufo - Feb 28, 1996 by jb1 at tiac.net - View Thread (2 articles)
  
  
(GOOGLE) ("cockumentary")
Beck's Incredible Film Festival: Plaster Caster
... ROCKSTAR'S PENISES! PLASTER CASTER is so unique a documentary; it
stands alone in its own genre; the 'cockumentary'. An intimate ... 
www.becksincrediblefilmfest.co.nz/m_plastercaster.html - 16k - Cached - 
Similar pages 
   
(GOOGLE GROUPS) ("cockumentary")
Re: PUMPING IRENE
PUMPING IRENE - the classic cockumentary that put the spot of jism on the 
wall
and launched the career of ARNOLD SCHWARZENSCHLONGER into megastardom. ... 
misc.fitness.weights - Jan 31, 1997 by contico at aol.com - View Thread (4 
articles)
  
  
(GOOGLE) ("bockumentary")
American Beer (2004)... Genre: Documentary Tagline: A Bockumentary Plot 
Outline: In June of 2002, five friends left New York City by minivan and set out 
across the United States to ... 
www.imdb.com/title/tt0372140/ - 35k - Cached - Similar pages    


(GOOGLE) ("jockumentary")
MED Magazine... Courtney Love. The term jockumentary is sometimes used to 
refer to a documentary about sports or a sportsperson. Modern jockumentaries ... 
www.macmillandictionary.com/MED-Magazine/ 
april2004/18-New-Word-Mockumentary.htm - 17k - Cached - Similar pages   
  
  
(GOOGLE) ("shockumentary")
The Word Spy - shockumentarySearch Word Spy: A Web site by Paul McFedries. 
shockumentary noun. A reality-based television show that contains footage of 
accidents and violence. ... 
www.wordspy.com/words/shockumentary.asp - 30k - Cached - Similar pages  
  
 
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("crockumentary")
No hits.
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("rockumentary")
 Frederick Post     Friday, October 27, 1989 Frederick, Maryland    
...to get. Showtime cable will air a ROCKUMENTARY focusing on Paul 
McCartney..
    
 Frederick Post     Monday, October 18, 1971 Frederick, Maryland    
...and production. The 50hour marathon "ROCKUMENTARY" was created and 
produced..
    
 Frederick Post     Wednesday, October 20, 1971 Frederick, Maryland     
...it all happen. Rock's most claimed ROCKUMENTARY. "Solid Gold Rock From 
Now..
    
 News Post Leader   Wednesday, September 24, 1986 Frederick, Maryland   
...the movie, but say there will be no "ROCKUMENTARY" footage of the 
singer's..   
    
 
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("mockumentary")
 News   Saturday, February 07, 1987 Frederick, Maryland     
...jams with the Temptations in this 'MOCKUMENTARY' at the LA Palace 
Theatre..
    
 Frederick Post     Friday, February 27, 1987 Frederick, Maryland   
...jams with the Temptations in this 'MOCKUMENTARY' at the LA Palace 
Theatre..
    
 Frederick Post     Monday, November 24, 1986 Frederick, Maryland   
...Willis' nickname in high school. The "MOCKUMENTARY" will follow 
fictional..
    
 Frederick Post     Saturday, February 07, 1987 Frederick, Maryland     
...jams with the Temptations in this 'MOCKUMENTARY' at the LA Palace 
Theatre.....jams with the Temptations in this 'MOCKUMENTARY' at the LA Palace 
Theatre..
    
 Frederick Post     Saturday, February 14, 1987 Frederick, Maryland     
...jams with the Temptations in this 'MOCKUMENTARY' at the LA Palace 
Theatre..
    
 Frederick Post     Friday, February 13, 1987 Frederick, Maryland   
...jams with the Temptations in this 'MOCKUMENTARY' at the LA Palace 
Theatre..
    
   Gettysburg Times     Monday, November 24, 1986 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania  
...Willis' nickname in high school. The "MOCKUMENTARY" will Jollow 
fictional..    
    
     
 
(OED)
mockumentary, _n._
    A film, television programme, etc., which adopts the form of a serious 
documentary in order to satirize its subject. 
  1965 G. GOULD Let. 31 Aug. in Sel. Lett. (1992) 79 The CBC had just asked 
me to write for them a mockumentary for radioa sort of Arctic ‘Under Milkwood’
. 1987 Washington Post (Nexis) 4 Jan. W30 Hollywood has also spoofed metal in 
Rob Reiner's ‘This is Spinal Tap’, a hilarious mockumentary. 1998 Village 
Voice (N.Y.) 17 Nov. 138/1 Hard Core Logo..is a mockumentary peculiarly devoid of 
mockery; it's hard..to recall a film so seriously fawning before so 
featherweight a subject.

        
 
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("crockumentary")
No hits.
   
 
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("rockumentary")
    1.  Display Ad 78 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 4, 1969. p. 94 (1 
page) 
(I didn't see "rockumentary"--ed.)
      
    2.  Entertainment Events
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 4, 1972. p. 29 (1 
page) 
     
    3.  Stage : 'Rockumentary' About Manson; ' 22 Years' Deals With Coast 
Murderer Society Deserves What It Creates Is Theme 
By MEL GUSSOW. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 5, 
1972. p. 45 (1 page)     


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Jun 25 11:47:55 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 07:47:55 -0400
Subject: Boody
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.074755.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
:somebody else wrote:

:: For what it's worth--for me, and I suspect many other speakers of
:: different regional varieties of AmEng, "boody" and "booty" (not to
:: mention "bootie") would be homonyms.

: At least near-homonyms. I'm ignorant of the fine points of the
: phonetics, but I recall Larry Trask making an objection to wholesale
: assignment of /d/ to an Am.Eng. intervocalic "t" sound (IIRC proposed
: for OED and used in MW3)...

And i agree with Larry Trask on this one, if for no other reason that
there's often a difference in the preceding vowel--note the classic example
of the short-a length distinction in many (most?) American English speakers'
pronunciations of 'ladder' and 'latter'.

For me, the word in the subject line is clearly 'booty' rather than 'boody'
*not* because of the quality of the consonant, but because of the quality of
the vowel preceding it (length, certainly, but something in my ear wants to
say there's a slight difference in the degree of rounding, as well, though i
may just be making that up from too much introspection).

<snip>

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Jun 25 11:54:32 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 07:54:32 -0400
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.075432.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    James Smith <jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM>

: I have heard "ignorant" used for "rude" here in Utah
: as long as I can remember.  Lots of descendants of
: Scottish immigrants here, including me, but I can't
: say this use of "ignorant" is or is not limited to
: that group.

In fact, in Utah (at least along the Wasatch Front), 'ignorant' may have as
its *primary* definition 'rude'.

As someone else noted, 'rude' underwent a similar shift (from 'unlearned'
to, well, 'rude') a while back, and 'villian' went through a different but
reasonably similar shift, as well. Makes me wonder if there's a pattern
there, where a word meaning a lack of book smarts is more likely than the
average word to turn into a word meaning a lack of social smarts.

Incidentally, not this definition, but the word 'ignorant' was also involved
in one of my favorite linguistic cartoons--an editorial cartoon in the Salt
Lake _Tribune_ (IIRC--it may have been a different Wasatch Front paper) that
had a sign painter with a shirt labeled "English-only movement" walking away
from a freshly painted billboard reading "Dont't be ignernt!"

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Jun 25 11:57:23 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 07:57:23 -0400
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.075723.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Anne Gilbert <kebara at COMCAST.NET>
: Barbara wrote:

:: That's the version I grew up with, but I have also heard the third
:: line as

:: If one of those bottle should happen to fall

: Hmmmmmm. . . . I never heard that version when I was growing up.
: There must be regional variations of one kind or another.

FWIW, i grew up with both "take one down and pass it around" *and* "if one
of those bottles should happen to fall". The second one was the one you'd
use around adults who didn't approve of kids singing about drinking.

And then, of course, there's the version sung by Hammy's family in the Tiny
Toons movie "How i spent my vacation": "99 bottles of non-alcoholic beverage
on the wall".

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 25 13:04:46 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:04:46 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in WashPost
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.090446.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Followers of vulgarity may be interested to see that today's
Washington Post includes the word "fuck" printed in full,
with no dashes or asterisks, on page A4. The article concerns
our Vice President's use of the term in the Senate:

 Cheney Dismisses Critic With Obscenity
 Clash With Leahy About Halliburton

 [...]

 "Fuck yourself," said the man who is a heartbeat from the presidency.

 [...]

 As it happens, the exchange occurred on the same day the
 Senate passed legislation described as the "Defense of Decency
 Act" by 99 to 1.

 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3699-2004Jun24.html


Jesse Sheidlower


From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Fri Jun 25 13:25:07 2004
From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:25:07 -0400
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.092507.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Other words that share a similar dual meaning with 'ignorant' include

vulgar
base
coarse
crude

each of these words have additional meanings of course, but they all can
be used to mean 'lacking in knowledge' or to mean 'rude'.

As a matter of fact, 'rude' can mean 'lacking in knowledge' in the sense
of 'exhibiting a markéd lack of skills' or 'in a natural, raw state'.

Just some observations, anything that may be construed as analysis is
unintentional and without guarantee.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Jun 25 13:45:37 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 06:45:37 -0700
Subject: "fuck" in WashPost
In-Reply-To: <20040625130446.GA28371@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.064537.0700.>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Jesse Sheidlower
> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 6:05 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: "fuck" in WashPost
>
>
> Followers of vulgarity may be interested to see that today's
> Washington Post includes the word "fuck" printed in full,
> with no dashes or asterisks, on page A4. The article concerns
> our Vice President's use of the term in the Senate:

Note that the article also uses "F-word," reserving "fuck" for the direct
quote.

A similar editorial policy regarding "fuck" is Daily Variety's. They use
"F-word" except in direct quotes when they print the unexpurgated word.

"The bureau decided that U2 front man Bono's use of the F-word on the Golden
Globes last year was not indecent, so NBC stations that aired it were not
forced to pay any fines.

"'This is really, really fucking brilliant,' Bono exclaimed after receiving
an award."

(Daily Variety, 15 January 2004, p. 8.)

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From Ittaob at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 25 13:44:43 2004
From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:44:43 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Ignorant"=20=3D=20"rude"?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20a=20Scotticism=3F?=
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.094443.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The use of "ignorant" to mean "rude" is not limited to English. The Webster's
New World Italian-English Dictionary (originally published by Collins in the
UK) lists "boor" as one meaning of Italian "ignorante." This corresponds to an
earlier poster's theory that the meaning of many similar English words arose
out of invidious rural/urban distinctions.

Steve Boatti
sjb72 at columbia.edu


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 25 14:21:05 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:21:05 -0400
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:______Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_=22Ignorant=22_=3D_=22rude=22_a_S?=
 =?iso-8859-1?Q?cotticism=3F?=
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.102105.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

Boor, bauer, Boer, etc.

Peasant or farmer.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Boatti" <Ittaob at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 9:44 AM
Subject: Re:       "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Steve Boatti <Ittaob at AOL.COM>
> Subject:
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Ignorant"=20=3D=20"rude"?
>               = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20a=20Scotticism=3F?=
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> The use of "ignorant" to mean "rude" is not limited to English. The
Webster's
> New World Italian-English Dictionary (originally published by Collins in
the
> UK) lists "boor" as one meaning of Italian "ignorante." This corresponds
to an
> earlier poster's theory that the meaning of many similar English words
arose
> out of invidious rural/urban distinctions.
>
> Steve Boatti
> sjb72 at columbia.edu


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun 25 14:31:23 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:31:23 -0400
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
In-Reply-To: <20040625040046.2A133228C8@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.103123.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I came up with this mathematician's version:

Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall,
Aleph-null bottles of beer,
Take one down, pass it around,
Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall.

Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall,
Aleph-null bottles of beer,
Take aleph-null down, pass them around,
Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall.

Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall,
Aleph-null bottles of beer,
Take aleph-null bottles down aleph-null times,
Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall.

(Aleph-null is the smallest infinite number. How many integers are there?
Aleph-null. If you're counting things and there is an infinite number of
them, how many are there? Aleph-null.)

-- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname
   http://mark.cracksandshards.com/filk.html
   Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring!
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Jun 25 14:54:42 2004
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:54:42 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.105442.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

P.S.  When I first sent this message, I got a line saying the "word" might
"get my keyboard washed out with soap."  Where does this come from?!?

-----------------
And had the Senate tied on the Defense of Decency Act, our Veep/Senate Prez
most certainly would have voted for it!

FWIW, _The Nation_ has been printing "fuck" in full for some time
now.  Know of any others?

At 09:04 AM 6/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Followers of vulgarity may be interested to see that today's
>Washington Post includes the word "fuck" printed in full,
>with no dashes or asterisks, on page A4. The article concerns
>our Vice President's use of the term in the Senate:
>
>  Cheney Dismisses Critic With Obscenity
>  Clash With Leahy About Halliburton
>
>  [...]
>
>  "Fuck yourself," said the man who is a heartbeat from the presidency.
>
>  [...]
>
>  As it happens, the exchange occurred on the same day the
>  Senate passed legislation described as the "Defense of Decency
>  Act" by 99 to 1.
>
>  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3699-2004Jun24.html
>
>
>Jesse Sheidlower


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Jun 25 15:01:36 2004
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:01:36 -0400
Subject: "Uptown" v. "downtown" w/meaning: "main shopping district"
In-Reply-To: <l03130300bd013d4b81ed@[12.107.146.38]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.110136.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:29 PM 6/24/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> >In Marshall, Texas, my birthplace, the county courthouse stands on the
> >highest point in town, facing the main shopping district, which is
> >referred to as "uptown" by the locals. Everyplace else that I've ever
> >lived - various places in Missouri, California, Illinois, &
> >Massachusetts, the main shopping district is referred to as "downtown."
> >So, wrt Marshall, it's obvious that downtown is referred to as "uptown"
> >because it quite literally is _up_town, as any fool can plainly see.
> >However, an article in the NYT Travel section noted that, in
> >Charleston, SC, too, downtown is referred to locally as "uptown," but
> >provided no further information. Does anyone know how the Charleston
> >usage came to be?
> >
> >-Wilson Gray
>~~~~~~~~~
>There was some discussion of these expressions on this list several years
>ago.  You might consult the archives.  I do remember that "uptown" was
>found in quite a few places, and that it didn't necessarily relate to
>topography.
>A. Murie

Right.  In Athens, Ohio, a fairly flat town surrounded by hills, the
one-street shopping area-cum-courthouse is called "Uptown."  There ain't no
Downtown here, just two ugly malls.


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Jun 25 14:52:13 2004
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:52:13 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
In-Reply-To: <20040625130446.GA28371@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.105213.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And had the Senate tied on the Defense of Decency Act, our Veep/Senate Prez
most certainly would have voted for it!

FWIW, _The Nation_ has been printing "fuck" in full for some time
now.  Know of any others?

At 09:04 AM 6/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Followers of vulgarity may be interested to see that today's
>Washington Post includes the word "fuck" printed in full,
>with no dashes or asterisks, on page A4. The article concerns
>our Vice President's use of the term in the Senate:
>
>  Cheney Dismisses Critic With Obscenity
>  Clash With Leahy About Halliburton
>
>  [...]
>
>  "Fuck yourself," said the man who is a heartbeat from the presidency.
>
>  [...]
>
>  As it happens, the exchange occurred on the same day the
>  Senate passed legislation described as the "Defense of Decency
>  Act" by 99 to 1.
>
>  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3699-2004Jun24.html
>
>
>Jesse Sheidlower


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 25 15:20:48 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:20:48 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040625105245.01f796e0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.112048.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 10:54:42AM -0400, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
> P.S.  When I first sent this message, I got a line saying the "word" might
> "get my keyboard washed out with soap."  Where does this come from?!?

Presumably Redmond, Washington, where they think they know what's
best for you.

> FWIW, _The Nation_ has been printing "fuck" in full for some time
> now.  Know of any others?

Almost everyone except for newspapers. Harper's and The Atlantic
have been printing it since the '60s, The New Yorker since the
mid-1980s. The N.Y. Times has only printed it once, in 1998
(Starr Report), but it has appeared in Time and Newsweek.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Fri Jun 25 15:27:59 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:27:59 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
In-Reply-To: <200406251512.AVL48676@mirapointmr3.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.112759.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20040625/fdf4b61a/attachment.html>

From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 25 15:30:42 2004
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:30:42 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
In-Reply-To: <20040625152048.GA13740@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.113042.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Headline on page 2 in todays freebie Metro that they distribute in the
subways here in Boston was "Cheney drops f-bomb"

-- Steve Kleinedler


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 25 15:57:30 2004
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:57:30 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
In-Reply-To: <20040625152048.GA13740@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.115730.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse Sheidlower said:
>On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 10:54:42AM -0400, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>  P.S.  When I first sent this message, I got a line saying the "word" might
>>  "get my keyboard washed out with soap."  Where does this come from?!?
>
>Presumably Redmond, Washington, where they think they know what's
>best for you.

Actually, Bev uses Eudora (I checked the headers), so this bit of
nannyism emanates from San Diego.

The feature is called "Mood Watch", and it can be turned off, if
you're so inclined, under Options.
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jun 25 16:07:12 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:07:12 -0700
Subject: "fuck" in WashPost
In-Reply-To: <OCEFKEEBCCDKPHIMICJGEEIMCKAA.dave@wilton.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.090712.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 25, 2004, at 6:45 AM, Dave Wilton wrote:

> ...A similar editorial policy regarding "fuck" is Daily Variety's.
> They use
> "F-word" except in direct quotes when they print the unexpurgated word.
>
> "The bureau decided that U2 front man Bono's use of the F-word on the
> Golden
> Globes last year was not indecent, so NBC stations that aired it were
> not
> forced to pay any fines.
>
> "'This is really, really fucking brilliant,' Bono exclaimed after
> receiving
> an award."
>
> (Daily Variety, 15 January 2004, p. 8.)

has anyone actually listened to this?  if bono said "fucking" rather
than "fuckin'", that would suggest that the expletive wasn't really
spontaneous.

the other possibility is that Daily Variety can bring itself to quote
the word "fuck" but not to quote casual-speech "-in'" -- i.e., that the
staff thinks that the *correct* spelling of "fuckin'" is "fucking".
that would be entertaining.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 25 17:14:11 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:14:11 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in WashPost
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.131411.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

Is there anyone out there above the age of 6 who is so fucking naive as not
to know know what the word "fuck" ultimately refers to.

The last bastion of political correctness or should I call it censorship was
our newspapers until the motherfucker Cheney was quoted as having used the
forbidden word.

I guess that I owe the asshole a debt of gratitude.

I do not know about the rest of you but I have used the f word in everyday
discourse for more than 40 years as have all of my friends including born
again Christians.

I want to give both Cheney and The Washington Post congratulations for
bringing the word "fuck" into acceptable common usage.

BTW you do know the correct response when someone tells you to get fucked.

It is, of course, " Thank you for your best wishes. I will do so as soon as
possible."

Page Stephens


From orinkh at CARR.ORG  Fri Jun 25 17:08:21 2004
From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:08:21 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.130821.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just a suggestion -- which would be very helpful to me, perhaps to others:
when the f-word or some other vulgarism is the subject of a thread or posting,
how about disguising it in the subject line: e.g., as "the f-word," or "f**k."
My ISP's spam filter (about which I have otherwise only the highest praise)
will not let things like this through when they appear in the subject line,
though it doesn't seem to care about the content. If I want to read anything
from such a thread I have to spring it from "Quarantine," which is unwieldly
and not always dependable. Thanks!

Orin Hargraves


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 25 17:17:34 2004
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:17:34 EDT
Subject: Absolute "not so much" = "not really"
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.131734.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

So, this "not so much" thing still sounds very new/affected even though I use
it quite often.  It still feels like a quote, and sure enough... here it is
in "Friends".  I have no doubt that that's where I got it from, but I won't
guess about the origin.
I found this "Friends" transcript online (http://www.eigo-i.com/friends/).
It seems to be a reliable source.  The first cite is maybe questionable, but
the second one is dead on.  I didn't search beyond the second cite for any
others.
Season 1, Episode 103 "The One with the Thumb"
Chandler: Don't think of it as a cigarette. Think of it as the thing that's
been missing from your hand. When you're holding it, you feel right. You feel
complete.
Joey: Y'miss it?
Chandler: Nah, not so much. Alright, now we smoke. (Takes a puff.) Oh.. my..
God. (He continues to smoke.)

Season 6, Episode 12, "The One with the Joke"
Chandler: (picks up the phone) All right, you want to see if the joke stealer
will let us watch the show at his place?
Joey: Sure.
Chandler: (with phone to ear, obviously hearing no dial tone) Paid your phone
bill?
Joey: Not so much.

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 25 17:28:31 2004
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:28:31 EDT
Subject: double a-prefixing?
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.132831.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another random a-prefixing wierdness... last Saturday, my mother-in-law-to-be
said:
"I musta been a-gonna write on it." (describing some odd scrap of paper she
found).

It struck me (and my husband-to-be) as odd.  Now, forgive the bad syntactic
description, but I think this is the first time I've heard the a-prefix on the
"future going" rather than the "movement going".

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 25 17:30:36 2004
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:30:36 EDT
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.133036.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Confirmed.  I, and two other SoIL natives, all 25 or under, know and use
"ignorant" as "rude".  I also know it the other way as rude=ignorant, but I think
that's literary affectation creeping in.

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun 25 17:57:18 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:57:18 -0400
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
In-Reply-To: <20040625040046.2A133228C8@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.135718.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Anne Gilbert <kebara at COMCAST.NET>wrote:

        >>>
Barbara:

> That's the version I grew up with, but I have also heard the third line as
>
> If one of those bottle should happen to fall

Hmmmmmm. . . . I never heard that version when I was growing up.  There must
be regional variations of one kind or another.
Anne G
        <<<

That's the first version I learned (with "bottles"; I assume that the
singular above is a typo). Summer camp, either New York State or
Connecticut, late 1950s or early 1960s.

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 25 17:58:31 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:58:31 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
In-Reply-To: <40D7F23D@mail.carr.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.135831.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 01:08:21PM -0400, Orin Hargraves wrote:
> Just a suggestion -- which would be very helpful to me, perhaps to others:
> when the f-word or some other vulgarism is the subject of a thread or posting,
> how about disguising it in the subject line: e.g., as "the f-word," or "f**k."
> My ISP's spam filter (about which I have otherwise only the highest praise)
> will not let things like this through when they appear in the subject line,
> though it doesn't seem to care about the content. If I want to read anything
> from such a thread I have to spring it from "Quarantine," which is unwieldly
> and not always dependable. Thanks!

Actually, I think that the right response should be for you to
complain vigorously to your ISP, or switch to another one. I'm
sorry that it's difficult for you, but this is a scholarly list,
and I don't want to censor it or misrepresent message contents
just to get around a prudish spam filter.

Perhaps not directly relevant, but I've just looked at my own
mail logs. Since 5:20 A.M. on 9 June, the last time I rolled
over my log (I won't bother searching my older logs, but I
think the results would be similar), I've received 15,583
e-mails; of these, the ones containing "fuck" in the subject
line (in any capitalization) are:

 panix2~ $ grep -i 'Subject:.*fuck' .procmail/log
 Subject: Every guy's fantasy is a girl who asks to be fucked in the ass! megal
 Subject: Hey! My Fucking Wife Gets F.U.C.K.E.D
 Subject: Looking for no strings attached sex? 1. Find 2. Meet 3. Fuck!
 Subject: Hardcoe Fucking and Sucking DVD's
 Subject: mom, daughter and son fucking!.. camellia
 Subject: you are the fuckfriend-bro  sari
 Subject: "fuck" in WashPost
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in WashPost
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in Wash Post
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in Wash Post
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in Wash Post
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in Wash Post
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in Wash Post
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in Wash Post
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in WashPost
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in WashPost
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in Wash Post

In other words, 6 messages of 15,583, or .03%, are spam with "fuck" in
the subject. Maybe my mail patterns are really weird, but from my
data it would seem that filtering on the presence of "fuck" in the
subject line is a pretty bad way of stopping spam. (And for what
it's worth, all six of those messages were caught by other means
by my spam tools.)

Best,

Jesse Sheidlower


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Jun 25 17:49:48 2004
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:49:48 -0400
Subject: double a-prefixing?
In-Reply-To: <1d6.24ca3ad0.2e0dbabf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.134948.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:28 PM 6/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Another random a-prefixing wierdness... last Saturday, my mother-in-law-to-be
>said:
>"I musta been a-gonna write on it." (describing some odd scrap of paper she
>found).
>
>It struck me (and my husband-to-be) as odd.  Now, forgive the bad syntactic
>description, but I think this is the first time I've heard the a-prefix on the
>"future going" rather than the "movement going".
>
>-dsb
>Douglas S. Bigham
>Department of Linguistics
>University of Texas - Austin
>http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html

It's not really so weird, and it's not quite future.  If you "formalize"
it, it's "I must have been going to write on it" = planning to, therefore
present perfect progressive?  But even if it's future gonna, think of "I'm
a-gonna do it"--not weird at all.


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Jun 25 17:33:59 2004
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:33:59 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
In-Reply-To: <p06110401bd01fb9876b0@[130.132.95.208]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.133359.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Alice--it worked!

At 11:57 AM 6/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Jesse Sheidlower said:
>>On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 10:54:42AM -0400, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>>  P.S.  When I first sent this message, I got a line saying the "word" might
>>>  "get my keyboard washed out with soap."  Where does this come from?!?
>>
>>Presumably Redmond, Washington, where they think they know what's
>>best for you.
>
>Actually, Bev uses Eudora (I checked the headers), so this bit of
>nannyism emanates from San Diego.
>
>The feature is called "Mood Watch", and it can be turned off, if
>you're so inclined, under Options.
>--
>==============================================================================
>Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
>Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
>New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Jun 25 18:06:42 2004
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 14:06:42 -0400
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
In-Reply-To: <20040625135442.G38267@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.140642.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:57 PM 6/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>  Anne Gilbert <kebara at COMCAST.NET>wrote:
>
>         >>>
>Barbara:
>
> > That's the version I grew up with, but I have also heard the third line as
> >
> > If one of those bottle should happen to fall
>
>Hmmmmmm. . . . I never heard that version when I was growing up.  There must
>be regional variations of one kind or another.
>Anne G
>         <<<
>
>That's the first version I learned (with "bottles"; I assume that the
>singular above is a typo). Summer camp, either New York State or
>Connecticut, late 1950s or early 1960s.
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel
>[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

That was my version too; the second version I associate with the next
generation.  And the 1955 date is late; I knew it long before that (well,
maybe 5 years earlier at least).  We sang it on the school bus going home
from basketball games and such.


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Fri Jun 25 19:35:56 2004
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 15:35:56 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in WashPost
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.153556.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:14:11 -0400 Page Stephens <hpst at EARTHLINK.NET>
writes:

> I do not know about the rest of you but I have used the f word in
> everyday
> discourse for more than 40 years as have all of my friends

I can go weeks without hearing it in conversation. I guess we have
different kinds of friends, which I suspect pleases us both.

D

I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jun 25 23:22:38 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 16:22:38 -0700
Subject: blending error
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.162238.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on today's (6/25/04) "Fresh Air" on NPR, Alain de Botton committed the
following, which s transparently an inadvertent blend:

...look at the power of art has to...

(look at the power of art to.../look at the power art has to...)

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Jun 26 00:52:29 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:52:29 -0700
Subject: slang (was Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay])
In-Reply-To: <20040602160518.GA8522@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.175229.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 2, 2004, at 9:05 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 11:15:31AM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>
>>         I think that the last time around, the majority view, which I
>> found convincing, was that words such as "fuck" were not in fact
>> slang.  Consider the AHD4 definition of "slang":
>>
>>         <<NOUN: 1. A kind of language occurring chiefly in casual and
>> playful speech, made up typically of short-lived coinages and figures
>> of speech that are deliberately used in place of standard terms for
>> added raciness, humor, irreverence, or other effect. 2. Language
>> peculiar to a group; argot or jargon: thieves' slang.>>
>>
>>         "Fuck" doesn't really fit either of these definitions, even
>> though AHD4 and other dictionaries do label it as slang.
>
> It doesn't fit? I do think that "fuck" occurs chiefly in casual speech
> and is deliberately used for added raciness or irreverence or other
> effect. The purportedly "short-lived" nature of slang is something
> I've always thought is wrong, but since AHD modifies it with
> "typically" we can ignore it here.

i realize this is now a bit out of date, but i want to complain about
the whole basis of this discussion.

over on soc.motss, we just had an exquisitely pointless thread about
whether "Ms." (or, if you will, "Ms") was or was not an "abbreviation".
  (the thread was further derailed by the fact that one -- fortunately,
only one, but an incredibly bull-headed one -- participant was
incapable of appreciating the difference between a vowel sound and a
vowel letter.)  my major contribution was to observe that
"abbreviation" is an ordinary-language term, not a technical term of
linguistics, and that though there was a core of examples (like "Rte."
for "Route") that everyone pretty much agreed should count as
abbreviations, there were also a huge number of types of short
spellings -- including initialisms, acronyms, clippings of several
kinds, "reduced" pronunciations spelled with apostrophes, right up to
"&" read as "and" -- with other schemes for spelling/pronunciation
pairing than the relatively simple one for "Rte."  so, the question,
"is X an abbreviation?" often doesn't have a sensible answer.

the deeper point is that linguistics can't just take over
ordinary-language vocabulary about language (which, after all,
represents some rough folk theory about these matters, one that
probably embodies some insight but was never intended as a systematic
analysis of the domain) and elevate it to scientific status.  instead,
you need to start by asking what concepts are needed, and then choose
terminology.

we shouldn't be asking what abbreviations *really* are, as if the
concept of "abbreviation" was given ahead of time and our task was to
hunt it down.

so it is with slang.  "slang" is a piece of ordinary-language
metavocabulary.  at its broadest, it takes in every sort of expression
that (for whatever reason) isn't appropriate in the general formal
written standard language; this is the parallel to something being a
"short spelling" (for whatever value of "short").  at its narrowest,
it's stuff that's informal, spoken, nonstandard, restricted to some
social group (where it serves as a group marker), and ephemeral.  in
between, there's all *sorts* of stuff, and it really makes no sense to
ask if these things are *really* slang.  the concept of "slang" isn't
given ahead of time, lying out there, just waiting for us to figure out
its shape and nature.

our business is to figure out what concepts play a role in this domain
of language use and then to choose good terminology for them.  maybe we
can find a place for the word "slang" in there, maybe not.  meanwhile,
though, we're just thrashing around, bewitched by words.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Jun 26 02:24:58 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 19:24:58 -0700
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
In-Reply-To: <20040625175831.GA21860@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.192458.0700.>

> In other words, 6 messages of 15,583, or .03%, are spam with "fuck" in
> the subject. Maybe my mail patterns are really weird, but from my
> data it would seem that filtering on the presence of "fuck" in the
> subject line is a pretty bad way of stopping spam. (And for what
> it's worth, all six of those messages were caught by other means
> by my spam tools.)

While I agree with the comment about not censoring the list (how can we talk
sensibly about those words if we can't use them?), I'm not sure this last is
necessarily valid. The lack of "fuck" in spam subject lines could be a
result of natural selection. Since the very first spam filter probably
killfiled messages with "fuck" in the subject, very few spammers actually
use the term. If anti-spam filters were to stop filtering on this, the
incidence would undoubtedly rise.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 26 03:54:55 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 23:54:55 EDT
Subject: Taco Salad (September 1964)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.235455.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The LOS ANGELES TIMES Proquest digitization is now through October 1964.
Still no Hidden Valley Ranch dressing or California Roll to report.  No
Cal-Mex or even a Tex-Mex.
   OT:  I'm free from parking tickets for 48 whole hours!


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
MY BEST RECIPE; Taco Salad Uses Lettuce, Corn Chips
MRS MARILYN JONES. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles,
Calif.: Sep 20, 1964. p. I8 (1 page) :
   "This is one of my family's favorite hot weather dishes," says Mrs.
Marilyn Jones.  "We often make a meal of this salad with refried beans, milk and
fruit."

      _TACO SALAD_
1 head lettuce, shredded
1/2 cup grated Cheddar cheese
1 medium onion, chopped
10-oz. can steamed tomatoes
1 lb. ground beef
1/4 cup taco sauce
6-oz. pkg. corn chips
   Place lettuce, cheese and onion in salad bowl.  Drain tomatoes well.  Save
juice, add tomatoes to salad mixture.  Brown ground beef, breaking it up as
it browns.  Pour off fat.  Add juice from tomatoes and taco sauce to meat and
simmer 5 min.  Add to salad along with corn chips.  Toss lightly and serve at
once.  Makes 6 ample servings.
   MRS. MARILYN JONES,
   8355 Leroy St.,
   San Gabriel.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 26 04:59:56 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 00:59:56 -0400
Subject: "beatnik"--coined by Herb Caen?
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.005956.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That claim, made tonight on Jeopardy, is supported by various web
sites (the idea being that the San Francisco Chronicle columnist came
up with the term in a 1958 column, of course as a blend of "beat
(generation)" and "sputnik"), but does not appear in the OED entry
for the word.  The RHHDAS does endorse the Herb Caen coinage, though.
Are any antedates available, or is this an rare actual instance of a
verifiable and attested coinage?

larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun 26 05:12:59 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 01:12:59 -0400
Subject: "Gussied up" (1912, 1914)
In-Reply-To: <1d7.249db3d5.2e0e4d8f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.011259.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The tennis player Gussie Moran apparently was not responsible. HDAS has
1952 (plus a bracketed 1928 item of uncertain relevance).

----------

_Indianapolis Star_, 17 March 1912: p. 7(?), col. 1:

<<The young Shipping Clerk used to fly to his Kennel and get himself all
Gussied up, and then edge into the Parlor and turn the Music for Miss
Livingstone, ....>>

----------

_Los Angeles Times_, 13 March 1914: p. I12:

<<In the Spring the young man's fancy, lightly / Turns to thoughts of
colthes [sic] / He wants himself all gussied up, as Nature garbs the rose.>>

----------

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 26 05:36:26 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 01:36:26 EDT
Subject: Close/Good enough for government work; The Right Track (Twain &
 Will Rogers)
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.013626.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE RIGHT TRACK (TWAIN & WILL ROGERS)

   "Good enough for government work" budgets only keep us numb and compound
the problem.  We need to aim not just for short-term responsibility but
long-term responsibility, a bold vision as well as calming competence. As Will Rogers
once reminded us, "Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if
you just sit there."
--NEW YORK SUN, J. P. Avlon opinion column, June 25-27, 2004, pg. 8, col. 5.


   Way back on 8 April 2004, I'd posted the following on ADS-L.  The NEW YORK
SUN piece was by the same J. P. Avlon:

   Mark Twain?  Will Rogers?  Someone else?
   From the NEW YORK SUN, 8 April 2004, pg. 9, col. 5:  Deputy Secretary of
State Richard Armitage memorably summed up the situation our nation found
itself in by quoting Mark Twain in his recent testimony to the 9/11 Commission:
"Even though you're on the right track, you can get run over if you're not going
fast enough."


   I wrote a letter to the editor of the NEW YORK SUN telling them that it
was absolutely NOT from Mark Twain, but was probably from Will Rogers.  The
letter was never published.  No one even responded.
   Two-and-one-half months later, the quote is now given to Will Rogers!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CLOSE/GOOD ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK

CLOSE ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK--4,580 Google hits, 5,770 Google Groups hits
GOOD ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK--2,450 Google hits, 1,690 Google Groups hits


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: "Good enough for government work"
... the requirements of the job at hand. If it good enough for government
work, its good enough! Most people use the phrase, "It's good ...
alt.usage.english - Sep 9, 1998 by John Gilmer - View Thread (11 articles)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("enough for government work")
   Mountain Democrat    Thursday, February 27, 1992 Placerville, California

...A-5 Justice: Prop 13 'close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK' By VLAE KERSHNER
c.1992.....It's not perfect, but it's close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT he added,
drawing..

   Mountain Democrat    Thursday, February 27, 1992 Placerville, California

...A-5 Justice: Prop 13 'close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK' By VLAE KERSHNER
c.1992.....It's not perfect, but it's close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT he added,
drawing..

   Chronicle Telegram   Monday, February 21, 2000 Elyria, Ohio
...lifelike, he decides close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK. He clears his
throat.....himself, yet now he couldn't use it ENOUGH. John was running FOR
president..

   Indiana Evening Gazette  Thursday, September 15, 1966 Indiana,
Pennsylvania
...a old one. That is close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK. You see During
this.....over. Gemini 11: Yes, well ft teems to WORK. Gemini 11 (minutes I sure
wish..
Pg. 16, col. 6:
_Excerpts Of Radio Talk Between Astronauts, Ground COntrol Stations--_
_"11" Crew Slept Between Periods of Chatting, Tossing_
      By JOE ZELLNER
   CAPE KENNEDY, Fla. (AP)--(...)
   Ground:  You should be right over New Orleans.  Maybe Pensacola or Mobile.
   Houston:  Do you require a point in command for the next star?
   (Command Pilot Charles--ed.) Conrad:  Thanks a lot.  You guys are all
right.  We used the old one.  That is close enough for government work.

   Mountain Democrat    Wednesday, February 07, 1996 Placerville, California

...This is the ol' "it's close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK" theory. If you've
got.....has been running through what passes FOR a creek out here. This is
good FOR..

   Mountain Democrat    Monday, April 24, 2000 Placerville, California
...quite precise, it's close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK, as they say. Why do
we.....Winery Entrance 30 Feet Ahead." Sure ENOUGH, there it was, a driveway
marked..

   Mountain Democrat    Friday, June 28, 1985 Placerville, California
...Yarborough said is "good ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK." the growing section
of.....aviation airport with a runway long ENOUGH to acromm.uddte executive
jets..

   Mountain Democrat    Wednesday, April 29, 1992 Placerville, California
...13 "rough and ready, close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK." What they were
talking.....when bald-faced inequities last long ENOUGH politicians may feel more
heat..

 Coshocton Tribune  Friday, November 05, 1976 Coshocton, Ohio
...he .supposes it was "close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK." Other red-faced
city.....up FOR November shifts, and 29 is not ENOUGH to cover each of the 744
hours in..


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("enough for government work")
    1.  An Astronomical Journey in Arizona
By IRA HENRY FREEMAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct
28, 1979. p. XX14 (1 page) :
   "This scope is also used for the study of the stars and planets," Joe
said.  "With it astronmers predicted the distance to the moon within six inches.
When I told a party that the other day, a man said, 'Well, that's close enough
for government work.'"

    2.  How Much for Defense?
R. James Woolsey. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.:
Jun 5, 1980. p. A19 (1 page)

    3.  The Y Cookies Return: A la Cart; Jottings
By Marian Burros. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.:
Apr 2, 1981. p. E1 (2 pages)

    4.  Not Good Enough
KURT M. HUGHES. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 3,
1984. p. 24 (1 page) :
   How else will the phrase "good enough for Government work" become
obsolete?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"HOT DOG" & 1904 WORLD'S FAIR (continued)

   OK, so I didn't get any credit for the Will Rogers quote.  Surely, after
all these years and years and years and years, I get credit for "hot dog"?


BEYOND THE ICE CREAM CONE:
THE WHOLE SCOOP ON FOOD AT THE 1904 WORLD'S FAIR
by Pamela J. Vaccaro
St. Louis: Enid Press
174 pages, paperback
April 2004

   Vaccaro debunks the idea that "iced tea" was invented at the 1904 World's
Fair.  Why, someone's found a citation for "iced tea" from 1890!  (See ADS-L
archives.)  Yes, it's that kind of scholarship.
   But onward we go to my name.  It's Barry Popik...

Pg. 112:  Hot dog historian (Yes, there is one!) Bruce Kraig, Ph.D., names
the college magazines of the late 1800s as the place where the term "hot dog"
began appearing in print.  At Yale in the fall of 1894, references were made to
the then-accepted practice of "dog wagons" selling "hot dogs."


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun 26 06:00:26 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 02:00:26 -0400
Subject: "beatnik"--coined by Herb Caen?
In-Reply-To: <p0432040ebd02b1acd60a@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.020026.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>That claim, made tonight on Jeopardy, is supported by various web
>sites (the idea being that the San Francisco Chronicle columnist came
>up with the term in a 1958 column, of course as a blend of "beat
>(generation)" and "sputnik"), but does not appear in the OED entry
>for the word.  The RHHDAS does endorse the Herb Caen coinage, though.
>Are any antedates available, or is this an rare actual instance of a
>verifiable and attested coinage?

I can't refute the claim.

I suppose the basis for the coinage is "beat" + "-nik", with the
Russian/Yiddish suffix "-nik" possibly applied by analogy with the already
available "nudnik", which was itself popularized ca. 1957 by its
association with "sputnik" IIRC. Just my naive notion.

-- Doug Wilson


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun 26 07:41:35 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 00:41:35 -0700
Subject: "beatnik"--coined by Herb Caen?
In-Reply-To: <200406252201.1bE5jr6do3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.004135.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>...That claim, made tonight on Jeopardy, is supported by various web
>sites (the idea being that the San Francisco Chronicle columnist came
>up with the term in a 1958 column,...

He always claimed it was his coinage.

Rima


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 26 11:53:36 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:53:36 -0400
Subject: "beatnik"--coined by Herb Caen?
In-Reply-To: <p0432040ebd02b1acd60a@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.075336.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004, Laurence Horn wrote:

> That claim, made tonight on Jeopardy, is supported by various web
> sites (the idea being that the San Francisco Chronicle columnist came
> up with the term in a 1958 column, of course as a blend of "beat
> (generation)" and "sputnik"), but does not appear in the OED entry
> for the word.  The RHHDAS does endorse the Herb Caen coinage, though.
> Are any antedates available, or is this an rare actual instance of a
> verifiable and attested coinage?

Yes, it was a Herb Caen coinage, clearcut.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 26 12:46:43 2004
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 05:46:43 -0700
Subject: Incest as a verb (was "fuck" in Wash Post)
In-Reply-To: <OCEFKEEBCCDKPHIMICJGOEJECKAA.dave@wilton.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.054643.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yesterday on the Dr. Phil show, a female
guest, 50-ish, said, "I was incested by two men in my
family when I was a child."  (The guest (Anne) was
discussing her addiction to sex.) I've never
heard  'incest' used  as a verb.  Is anyone familiar
with this usage?

Margaret Lee

Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET> wrote:
> In other words, 6 messages of 15,583, or .03%, are spam with "fuck" in
> the subject. Maybe my mail patterns are really weird, but from my
> data it would seem that filtering on the presence of "fuck" in the
> subject line is a pretty bad way of stopping spam. (And for what
> it's worth, all six of those messages were caught by other means
> by my spam tools.)

While I agree with the comment about not censoring the list (how can we talk
sensibly about those words if we can't use them?), I'm not sure this last is
necessarily valid. The lack of "fuck" in spam subject lines could be a
result of natural selection. Since the very first spam filter probably
killfiled messages with "fuck" in the subject, very few spammers actually
use the term. If anti-spam filters were to stop filtering on this, the
incidence would undoubtedly rise.

--Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net


Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Professor of English & Linguistics
  and University Editor
Department of English
Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home)
margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu   or   mlee303 at yahoo.com

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sat Jun 26 13:05:04 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 09:05:04 -0400
Subject: Who says this?
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.090504.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yesterday on BBC a newsreader giving a financial report spoke, e.g.,  ".3 %
of ....... "  as "point three of a percent of...." over  and over (with
appropriate numerical variation).
It fell so oddly on my ear that I can't believe I've ever heard it in
either Brit or No Am English  before.
Anyone know this usage?
A. Murie


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 26 18:05:37 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:05:37 EDT
Subject: "Gussied Up" from Jerry; Sign on dotted line (1913)
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.140537.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"GUSSIED UP" FROM GERALD COHEN

[to ads-l]:
Douglas Wilson's early dating of "Gussy up" is interesting. About ten years
ago I wrote on article on the expression and will send the title and reference
to ads-l when I return from vacation next week.
Meanwhile, I remember that the expression most likely derives from a
character named August (Beekham or something similar) in a once popular but now
obscure 19th century novel titled _Miss Nobody of Nowhere_. August, aka "little
Gussie" was always overdressed--a quintessential "dude" as the term was used in
the 1880's amd '90's.

   I've asked Barry Popik to mail this message to ads-l; If I send messages
to ads-l from anywhere other than my own computer, they will arrive encrypted.

Gerald Cohen

    -----Original Message-----
    From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Douglas G. Wilson
    Sent: Sat 6/26/2004 12:12 AM
    To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA
    Subject: "Gussied up" (1912, 1914)



    The tennis player Gussie Moran apparently was not responsible. HDAS has
    1952 (plus a bracketed 1928 item of uncertain relevance).

    ----------

    _Indianapolis Star_, 17 March 1912: p. 7(?), col. 1:

    <<The young Shipping Clerk used to fly to his Kennel and get himself all
    Gussied up, and then edge into the Parlor and turn the Music for Miss
    Livingstone, ....>>

    ----------

    _Los Angeles Times_, 13 March 1914: p. I12:

    <<In the Spring the young man's fancy, lightly / Turns to thoughts of
    colthes [sic] / He wants himself all gussied up, as Nature garbs the
rose.>>

    ----------

    -- Doug Wilson

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
"SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE"

   The new parking violations computer system has people sign in on the
dotted line.  Actually, it's like the line above this--it's a DASHED line.  But you
can't say that or people will go "dotty."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("sign on the dotted line")
Trenton Evening Times Monday, July 22, 1918 Trenton, New Jersey
...THE Red Triangle, bout to SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE. Tom Sharkey is in
excellent.....Two. oTHEr light routid.ers areoh THE bill.In" .-THE' 'op'ON'er,
-Dave THE..

Oxnard Courier Thursday, December 12, 1918 Oxnard, California
...some mONey ana asked to SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE. "What he inquired.
"It's.....for your Xmas photos. We have a nice LINE of medalliON folders to choose
from..

Bridgeport Telegram Friday, May 17, 1918 Bridgeport, Connecticut
...Gei'ai'cVs refusal to SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE and THE statement
that.....Park MONday night, and THE S. R. p. SIGN will hang out early. So for your..

Oxnard Courier Friday, December 13, 1918 Oxnard, California
...so-ne mONey ana asked to SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE. "What tie inquired.
"It's.....and is perhaps THE last visible SIGN of THE scourge which i has..


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("sign on the dotted line")
  1. Display Ad 15 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 3, 1913. p. 19 (1
page):
   JUST two things confuse the "easy buyer" and tempt him to sign on the
dotted line for a delivery truck--namely--_Liberal Discounts_ and _Claims of Low
Operating Cost_!
(Ad for Chase Motor Trucks--ed.)

  2. PATRIOTISM RINGS.; Alhambra Makes a Whirlwind Finish in Tank Liberty
LoanDrive.
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 13, 1918. p.
I11 (1 page)

  3. CHATS WITH VISITORS IN WASHINGTON
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Mar 29, 1919. p. 6 (1
page)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Jun 26 18:10:58 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 11:10:58 -0700
Subject: the thin line between error and mere variation
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.111058.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In trying to write some commentary on Geoff Nunberg's discussion of
"nucular" (in a 10/2/02 Fresh Air commentary on NPR, now in his
collection Going Nucular), i've been reflecting on that thin line
between error and mere variation.

Nunberg begins this piece by drawing a distinction between "typos" and
"thinkos" -- in my terms, between inadvertent errors, things that are
"wrong" for the person who produces them, and advertent errors, things
that are ok so far as the producer is concerned but "wrong" from the
point of view of at least some other people.  (Faced with a typo, you
call in the psycholinguist; faced with a thinko, you call in the
sociolinguist.)

The distinction is a familiar one in the literature on language errors.
  In the typo camp, you have, for instance, Fay/Cutler malapropisms (so
called from a 1977 article by David Fay and Anne Cutler), like my
(alas, only too frequent) productions of "verb" for "vowel", or vice
versa, in class lectures.  In the thinko camp, you have, for instance,
classical malapropisms (so labeled by me in a 1979 article), like
"behest [beset] with all these difficulties", written by someone who
*meant* to write "behest" (and was willing to defend this word choice).
  It might be hard to decide, in any particular instance, which kind of
malapropism you're looking at, but in principle, with more information
about the producer and their intentions, you can sort things out.

But matters are not so clear in the world of thinkos.  The deviance of
thinkos ranges from extremely high, as in clear examples of classical
malapropisms, to extremely low, as in violations of the more fanciful
proscriptivist pronouncements, like the one against possessive
antecedents of pronouns.

(A side issue: It would be a good thing to expunge the moral language
usually applied to thinkos, even by Nunberg, who should know better:
Typos "can make you look foolish, but they aren't really the signs of
an intellectual or ethical deficiency, the way thinkos are.  It's the
difference between a sentence that expresses an idea badly and a
sentence that expresses a bad idea." (p. 59 of GN).  Look at the most
extreme case...  Someone who writes "behest" for "beset" is certainly
wrong.  But they aren't morally defective, or evil, or stupid.
Technically, they are very specifically ignorant, of one  of the
zillion facts about the world one might be called on to marshal in
everyday life.  It's like getting Bjo"rk mixed up with Bork, or not
knowing at all who Hugo Wolf is.)

The "behest" thing is, yes, an extreme case.  But things don't get any
clearer as we work towards possessive antecedents.  They just get
messier and messier, in fact.  As soon as we leave the clear "behest"
zone (where almost everyone says the usage is wrong for them), we have
to confront a world in which usage is contested and variable.

We come first to the Retart Zone, a label I use to honor a poster to
the newsgroup sci.lang:
-------------
"D---" on sci.lang, 6/24/04, called by Peter Daniels on the voiceless
final consonant in his insult "What a retart":

And what's wrong with my use of "retart"...it's a perfectly acceptable
word when describing
those who are SLOW.  A retart is a SLOW person.
-------------
In later discussion, the pugnacious D--- concedes that (some) other
people say, and write, "retard", but maintains that *his* version is
perfectly fine.  That is, he claims that this is a case of variation,
not error.  He is surely in a small minority in his pronunciation, but
probably not a loner; I have no doubt that some searching would turn up
others with his pronunciation.

Certainly, there *are* plenty of examples of variation.  Some English
speakers (I am one) have a voiceless final consonant in "with", some
have a voiced final (a fact that I did not appreciate until I gave an
exercise in phonetic transcription in an introductory linguistics
course); I believe that the voiced variant is statistically the
predominant one, by a considerable margin (some dictionaries list only
this pronunciation), but theta-speakers like me don't provoke dark
looks and snickers with our minority pronunciation.  Similarly, some
English speakers (including a great many South Africans) have edh
rather than theta in the "South" of "South Africa"; I believe that they
are definitely in the minority in the English-speaking world, but who
am I, an American theta-speaker, to tell South Africans how to
pronounce the name of their country?  Similarly, many New Yorkers stand
"on line" rather than "in line"; they're a small minority in the
English-speaking world, and they are aware (at some level) that other
people use "in" here, but everybody knows that people speak differently
in different places, so where do you get off telling them they're
"wrong"?

On the other hand, we do tell "needs V-ed" speakers (again, a small
minority in the English-speaking world) that they're "wrong".  These
folks are aware (at some level) that other people say "needs V-ing",
but most of the people they know personally are "needs V-ed" speakers,
so from their point of view, they're talking appropriately, and the
dark looks and snickers from outsiders are just nastiness.

Even in the Retart Zone, we're in trouble.  What's unremarkable
variation, and what's an thinko-type error?

But then we get to the Nucular Zone, the Hone-In-On Zone, and the
Another-Thing-Coming Zone.  The percentage of people who use the
(historically) innovative variant steadily increases.  (Google web
searches have "home in on" somewhat above "hone in on", 64,200 to
35,200 in raw numbers, but "another thing coming" *way* over "another
think coming", 21,400 to 5,830.)  Those who use the innovative variants
are probably aware (at some level) that other people have other
variants, but for them this is just unremarkable variation, and their
version is, well, *their* version, and perfectly ok.

The argument from history isn't going to carry much weight for these
people, and anyway it's intellectually disreputable, since very few
current standard variants have a pedigree going back to Old English;
almost everything was an innovation at some point.  How to decide when
the ship of language change has sailed?

The argument from authority won't carry much weight, either.  I can
tell you that *I* (a noted linguist and writer) use "nuclear", "home in
on", and "another think coming" (and "too big a dog" rather than "too
big of a dog", but don't use positive "anymore", etc.), but you're
entitled to ask why I should be telling you how to talk and to note
that anyway you think I sound bookish and prissy.

If anything might work, it would be the appeal to the practice of those
who are noted for their abilities in writing and speaking -- there's a
reason AHD ended up with a Usage Panel, awkward though it turned out to
be -- but in fact these experts are quite often divided in their
practices and in their opinions, and in any case they're not
necessarily models for writing and speaking in other than formal
contexts.

All of this is familiar territory for people on this list.  The fact
seems to be that the line between mere variation and error is largely a
matter of intellectual fashion  -- lord knows why speaker-oriented
"hopefully", restrictive relative "which", split infinitives, logical
"since" and "while", etc. get picked on while other variants thrive
without criticism -- rather than a result of observation and reasoning.
  In this context, the label "thinko" doesn't really seem much better
than "error" or "mistake".

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), who has more to say specifically
about "nucular"


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun 26 20:13:47 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:13:47 -0400
Subject: "Gussied Up" from Jerry
In-Reply-To: <60.40a96f3f.2e0f14f1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.161347.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"GUSSIED UP" FROM GERALD COHEN
>
>[to ads-l]:
>Douglas Wilson's early dating of "Gussy up" is interesting. About ten years
>ago I wrote on article on the expression and will send the title and reference
>to ads-l when I return from vacation next week.
>Meanwhile, I remember that the expression most likely derives from a
>character named August (Beekham or something similar) in a once popular
>but now
>obscure 19th century novel titled _Miss Nobody of Nowhere_. August, aka
>"little
>Gussie" was always overdressed--a quintessential "dude" as the term was
>used in
>the 1880's amd '90's.

I am not convinced that the "Gussie" character in A. C. Gunter's novel
"Miss Nobody of Nowhere" is likely to be the ancestor of "gussied up": more
likely it is a cousin.

I have some glancing familiarity with Gunter's character names in "Little
Puck" (the play from which our modern word "jinx" appears to be descended
as I explained earlier on this list). I recall "Hercules Savage" as an
intimidating school principal and "Packingham Giltedge" as a prosperous
stockbroker: Gunter apparently was given (at least sometimes) to rather
transparent character names!

"Miss Nobody of Nowhere" was first published in 1888, AFAIK.

Consider this humorous item from early 1886:

----------

_New Era_ (Humeston IA), 7 Jan. 1886: p. 9(?), col. 2:

<<EVOLUTION OF THE OVERCOAT / How Gussie Gradually Brings the Garment into
Harmony with His Feminine Taste. / Caricaturists and writers have
endeavored to show that the garments of the gentle sex are becoming more
and more masculine as years pass on. .... a portion of alleged masculine
mankind is becoming affected in the other direction .... / .... / Take a
good look at this coat. It is last year's style, with a little lah-de-dah
cape half covering the shoulders[,] a pinched corset-suggesting waist, the
first departure towards the feminine cut. It is close-fitting and imparts a
suggestive doubt already as to the sex of its wearer, around whose slight
form it clings so lovingly. It is imported goods and possibly made in "deah
old London, ye know". / .... the overcoat took a step further and evolved
itself into the coat with a hood to it just like a lady's water-proof
cloak. They are to be seen daily all over town, as in this drawing, in
increasing numbers, showing that they have found favor with the "Gussies"
and "Chollies" who infest our society. No wonder women are wearing men's
attire when they see their own appropriated by these creatures. The step is
but a slight one to the next change in costume which "Gussie" will adopt.
In all probability next year you will see the overcoat worn by him adorned
with a large and beautiful bustle ....>>

----------

Here a "Gussie" is an affected and effeminate man, who likes 'sissy'
extravagances in clothing. I guess a "Chollie" (i.e., "Charlie") is
similar, and I've seen a few other "Gussie and Charlie" pairs referring to
'effete' men in the late-19th-century papers. Why these names? I don't
know; the usual speculations are available; "Gussie" is a sexually
ambiguous name and it permits a lisp, while "Charlie" permits an 'affected'
loss of the "r" (according to my naive impression of the notions of the time).

It is of course still conceivable that Gunter's character existed earlier:
for example the same character might have appeared in multiple Gunter
works, or the novel might have been serialized in a magazine earlier (if so
I can't find it now).

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 27 00:15:59 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:15:59 -0400
Subject: "99 bottles of beer on the wall" (one more time)
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.201559.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

http://p066.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1.showMessage?topicID=10501.topic
http://www.standingstones.com/greenbot.html

   Dave Wilton's site has a nice discussion of the song NINETY-NINE BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.  "Ozziemaland" posted this originally, and then posted a song sheet from FORTY-NINE BOTTLES.  "Steve G" posted a fine article about the song TEN GREEN BOTTLES (see above).  "ElizaD" posted about "ten little frogs sitting on a well."
   All great work.  I hate those guys.
   Maybe someone should tell the Brooklyn Historical Society and its "NINETY-NINE BOTTLES-Brooklyn beer" exhibit curator?
   The NYPL's Lincoln Center Library for the Performing Arts, Music Division, had this note card in its card catalog, a-hanging on the wall:

NINETY-NINE BOTTLES
See also
   NINETY-NINE MILES FROM HOME
   FORTY-NINE BOTTLES
   NINETY-NINE BLUE BOTTLES

   "Forty-Nine Bottles" is in SONGS OF ALL THE COLLEGES by D. B. Chamberlain, comp. 1906.
   Another note card a-hanging on the wall said to look at two pages pasted to the back of A BIBLIOGRAPHY OF NORTH AMERICAN FOLKLORE AND FOLKSONG, VOLUME ONE (Dover Publications) by Charles Haywood (Professor of Music, Queens College, New York).  I'll type those two pages here:


JOHNSON & TANNENBAUM
ATTORNEYS AT LAW
FISK BUILDING
250 West 57th Street
New York, NY 10019
June 16, 1977

Gentlemen:

   Supplementing our report to you of June 15, 1977 in re the song

   NINETY-NINE BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL

we wish to advise you that a search of the records in the Folk Archives of the Library of Congress, Washington, D.C., disclosed the following references to the possible origin of the above song and variances thereof:

1.  _Tommy's Tunes: A Comprehensive Collection of SOldiers' Songs, Marching Melodies, Rude Rhymes and Poular Parodies Composed, Collected and Arranged on Active Service with the B.E.F._ [British Expeditionary Force] by F. T. Nettleingham, Second Lieutenant, R.F.C., London, Erskin, MacDonald, Ltd. "First published Oct. 1917.  All Rights Reserved.  Copyright in United States of America by Erskine, MacDonald, Ltd."

Song title: _Ninety-Nine Bottles on the Wall_

   "There were ninety-nine bottles hanging on the wall.
    There were ninety-nine bottles hanging on the wall.
    What would happen if one were to fall?
    Why, there'd be ninety-eight bottles hanging on the wall."
   "--and so on until tired."

2.  _Paradology: Songs for Fun and Fellowship_, Nashville, Cokesbury Press, 1927.  Text only.  p. 77.

Song title: _Ninety-Nine Miles From Home_

3.  _Bottoms Up_, by Clifford Leach, New York, Paull Pioneer Music Corp., 1933, p. 51 with music.

Song title: _Forty-Nine Bottles_.

4.  _G. I. Songs_, by Edgar A. Palmer, New York, Sheridan House, 1944, p. 208.

Song title: _Forty-Nine Bottles_

5.  _Ozark Folk Songs, Vol. 3, Humorous and Play-Party Songs_, collected and edited by Vance Randolph, Columbia, Missouri, State Historical Society of Missouri, 1949, p. 210, no. 456.

Song title: _Ninety-Nine Blue Bottles_

   "I heard my father sing this in the late '90s; he had learned it as a boy in South Carolina, shortly after the Civil War."  From Mrs. Hugo Blair, Joplin, Missouri, September 4, 1929:

   "Ninety-nine blue bottles a-hanging on the wall
    Take one blue bottle away from them all
    Leaves ninety-eight blue bottles a-hanging on the wall."

Note: the music printed here has a different tune from the usual one.

6.  _101+5 Folk Songs for Camp_, by Mike Cohen, New York, Oak Publications, 1966.

Song title: _Ninety-Nine Bottles of Beer_

   It appears from the foregoing that this song has long been in the public domain and is of unknown origin.

   Very truly yours,
   JOHNSON & TANNENBAUM
   (Signed--ed.)
   Samuel W. Tannenbaum


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Title: The most popular college songs :
selected from Songs of all the colleges ; Songs of the Eastern colleges and Songs of the Western colleges.
Publication: New York :; Hinds, Noble & Eldredge,
Edition: Rev. ed.
Year: 1997, 1906
Description: 124 p. ;; 26 cm.
Language: English
Music Type: Songs
Contents: Amiel -- Bavarian yodel -- Co-ca-che-lunk -- Dutch Company -- Forty-nine bottles -- Gaudeamus -- H 2 S O 4 -- Integer Vitae -- Jolly boating weather -- Lone fish ball -- My last cigar -- Noah's Ark -- On the chapel steps -- Over the banister -- The Pope -- Son of a Gambolier -- Tarpaulin jacket -- Upidee -- Vive L'Amour -- We stand by our classes.


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Title: U.W. songs :
a collection of songs of the University of Wisconsin /
Corp Author(s): University of Wisconsin.
Publication: Madison :; University of Wisconsin,
Edition: 2nd ed.
Year: 1909
Description: 122 p. of music ;; 27 cm.
Language: English
Music Type: Songs
Contents: All hail Alma Mater Wisconsin -- Alumni song -- Amici -- Badger life -- Back to the Hill -- Bingo -- Boating song -- The boy and the horse -- Bull dog -- The cardinal so bright -- Ching-a-ling -- Class song -- Co-ca-che-lunk -- Commencement song -- Crambambuli -- Crow song -- Dear Evelina, sweet Evelina -- Dear old Wisconsin -- Dear Varsity -- Drinking song -- Drink to me only with thine eyes -- The Dutch company -- Eaton boating song -- Fair Varsity -- Fill up the beaker -- Football toast -- Forsaken -- Forty-nine bottles -- The four dreamers --; Gaudeamus -- Good night -- Good night, beloved -- Hail Wisconsin -- Hark, I hear a voice -- Hot time -- If you want to be a Badger -- It's a way we have at Wisconsin -- Jingle bells -- Juanita -- The Jumblies -- Landlord fill the flowing bowl -- Last night -- Levee song -- Long may she live, Wisconsin fair! -- Maid of Athens -- Marching song -- Mary's goat -- Massa's in de cold ground -- Meerschaum pipe -- Mendota crew song -- Michael Roy -- The midshipmite -- My Bonnie -- Nellie was a lady -- Nut brown maiden -- Of thee, Wisconsin -- Old Black Joe -- Old folks at home -- Old Kentucky home -- O schöne Zeit -- Our dear old Alma Mater -- Over the banister --; Polly-wolly-doodle -- The Pope -- The quilting party -- Rig-a-jig -- Rosalie -- Soldiers farewell -- Songs to thee, Wisconsin -- Stars of the summer night -- Stein song -- Sweet and low -- Those vacant chairs -- To Alma Mater -- University hymn -- Upidee -- The Varsity -- Vive la Wisconsin -- Wisconsin -- Wisconsin days -- Wisconsin hymn -- Wisconsin jubilee -- Wisconsin marching song -- A Wisconsin song -- Wisconsin spirit -- Wisconsin toast (unison) -- Wisconsin toast (quartette) -- We'll cheer for old Wisconsin.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
HOW WE WENT DUCKING.
H. M. NORRIS.. A Journal of Outdoor Life, Travel, Nature Study, Shooting, Fishing, Yachting (1873-1930). Dec 22, 1894. Vol. VOL. XLIIL., Iss. No. 25.; p. 535 (1 page):
   ...the players singing the following words to the tune of "Forty-nine Blue Bottles a-Hanging on the Wall:"...


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
  News  Wednesday, October 27, 1897 Frederick, Maryland
...Tou know that snog about FORTY-NINE BLUE BOTTLES 5 It Is trills..

  Van Wert Times Bulletin  Saturday, May 22, 1971 Van Wert, Ohio
...The Funniest Face." The song "TEN GREEN BOTTLES' will feature Kip Boroff.....will be the poems for fall. The song "TEN Little Indians' will feature..


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 27 01:41:21 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 21:41:21 -0400
Subject: Grapple (Grape + apple juice); "Only in New York" by NY TIMES
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.214121.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GRAPPLE (GRAPE + APPLE JUICE)

GRAPPLE + GRAPE + APPLE + JUICE--512 Google hits, 22 Google Groups hits

   I was just at the Union Square greenmarket and had some "Grapple."  It's 80% white grape juice, 20% apple juice.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
COLLECTION: Drinks without alcohol
... From: 11sstein at gallua (Scott A. Steinbrink), @1988-9 GRAPPLE ===== Ingredients: ---- 1 cup grape juice 1 cup cider or apple juice 1 tsp lemon juice 1 ...
rec.food.drink - Sep 7, 1993 by Micaela Pantke - View Thread (1 article)
GRAPPLE
=======

Ingredients:
------------
1 cup    grape juice
1 cup    cider or apple juice
1 tsp    lemon juice
1/4 tsp  cinnamon

Instructions:
-------------
Place all ingredients in the blender jar - cover and whiz on medium
speed until well blended.  Pour in one tall, 2 medium or 3 small glasses
and drink up.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: A Pawned Pond
... Both apple butter and apple jelly, as well as "grapple" (grape-apple) jelly are sitting ... a recipt for apple jelly that starts with frozen apple juice concentrate ...
alt.callahans - Jul 28, 1997 by LadyCheron - View Thread (61 articles)


(GOOGLE)
Apple Juice
... Grapple Apple Juice, Cinnamon, Lemon Juice, Grape Juice. Joe Magnolia's Beach
Bum Apple Juice, Banana Liqueur, Grain Alcohol, Pineapple Juice, Kool-Aid. ...
www.thevirtualbar.com/Ingredients/AppleJuice.html - 17k - Cached - Similar pages


(GOOGLE)
Grapple recipe
A delicious recipe for Grapple, with grape juice, apple cider, lemon
juice and cinnamon. Also lists similar drink recipes. Cocktails ...
www.drinksmixer.com/drink3944.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages


(GOOGLE)
Albany, NY -- timesunion.com
... He is taste-testing a grape-apple flavored juice he's dubbed grapple
and a black currant-apple combination that has yet to be named. ...
www.timesunion.com/.../story.asp?storyID=245943& category=STATEFARE&BCCode=&newsdate=6/18/2004 - 26k - Cached - Similar pages


(GOOGLE)
Insufferably Delightful: The Grapple!!
... Anyway, this grapple thing - it's a grape-flavored apple! ... Fake-grape! ... Tasted mostly
like apple upon the first bite, but after the juices were released, they ...
www.wpi.edu/~elisab/MT/archives/000579.html - 11k - Cached - Similar pages


(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
Frankenfruit tastes ``ucky"; [Final Edition]
Kristen Browning-Blas. Denver Post. Denver, Colo.: May 26, 2004. p. F.02
A perfectly good Fuji apple dunked in fake grape flavor, the Grapple aims to make heretofore disgusting apples palatable to kids. Our child taste-testers deemed the Kool-Aid-tasting fruits 'ucky.' Are Washington apple growers so desperate to increase sales they would flavor perfectly good fruits? Apparently so. The group has sullied 1.2 million fine Fujis as part of its mission 'to reverse the trend of diabetes and obesity in America,' says Get Fit Foods spokesman Blair McHaney. King Soopers has them $2.99 for 4.


(FACTIVA)
Mixing it up
Kathy Stephenson
1,246 words
16 June 2004
The Salt Lake Tribune
D1
English
Copyright (c) 2004 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved.

Tired of traditional apples? Bored with broccoli?

Don't go bananas. The next generation of produce is here.

Consider the pluot, a juicy stone fruit that was born when horticulturists crossed a plum with an apricot.

Stores sell broccolini, a mixture of broccoli and Chinese kale, with tender, skinny stems; and broccoflower, a yellowish mix of broccoli and cauliflower.

And don't forget the grapple (pronounced gray-ple) -- a Fuji apple, bathed in a natural Concord grape flavoring. It looks and tastes like an apple, but has a light grape smell and taste.

Whether it's our cars, our diet colas or our fruit, today's affluent society gets weary of the ordinary and is always demanding something new. So horticulturists and producers spend years creating new fruits and vegetables to give consumers more choices and to increase sales.

"Like everything else in the world we want choice," explained Bruce Barritt, an apple breeder with the Tree Fruit Research and Extension Center at Washington State University. "New types of fruit provide a unique eating experience."

Hybridization, of course, is an old process, whereby producers take the pollen from one plant and put it on the pistil of another plant, producing an entirely new variety. With fruits and vegetables, the process is the most successful when plants are from the same families.

For example, a decade ago America's apple choices were limited to red and golden delicious. By crossing different varieties, we now have Fuji, Braeburns and galas. These "new" varieties are now as common as their predecessors.

The process happens with more than just apples.

Years ago, someone crossed a casaba melon and a cantaloupe and created the green-skinned Crenshaw melon.

Grapefruits and tangerines were mixed to make tangelos and no one would enjoy Loganberry pies and jam if, back in 1880, James H. Logan had not accidentally crossed a blackberry with a raspberry.

While most people have never heard of a pluot, the fruit has been around for more than a decade, a trademark of Zaiger Genetics in Modesto, Calif.

The fruit, which is 70 percent plum and 30 percent apricot, is grown in parts of Washington and California. There are some 20 varieties -- often called Dinosaur Eggs -- available.

Salt Lake City's Liberty Heights Fresh is selling the dark purple flavorosa pluots, an early season variety with bright red flesh. They sell for $6.50 a pound.

"It's fun to turn people on to new and interesting things," said store produce manager Bryce Geyer, adding that later in the summer, Liberty Heights will be getting shipments of another plum-apricot hybrid called the plumcot.

There is a third sibling to come from the plum-apricot marriage called an aprium, which has more apricot characteristics, with a slight plum taste. It also is a Zaiger trademark.

Unlike a pluot, the grapple is not a hybrid but a twist on an old favorite, explains Blair McHaney, co-owner of Get Fit Foods, which markets the new fruit for the 96-year-old C&O Nursery in Wenatchee, Wash.

The nursery takes its extra-fancy Fuji apple and bathes it a natural Concord grape flavoring.

Through the process, the apple absorbs the grape "essence" without affecting the nutrient or calorie content, said McHaney. The fruit, which is sold in some Smith's and Fred Meyer stores in Utah, still tastes like an apple but with a light grape smell and taste. A package of four costs about $4. Now the supply is nearly gone and consumers likely will have to wait until fall for more.

Get Fit Foods is not worried that serious horticulturists may look at the grapple as a gimmick.

"Who cares," said McHaney, "if it gets people to eat more produce."

kathys at sltrib.com

Broccolini: A cross between broccoli and Chinese kale. It also is called baby broccoli or asparation. The buds resemble typical broccoli flowerets but the vegetable has skinny stems that are sweeter and more tender than a typical broccoli stalk. Use in place of broccoli in most recipes.

Grapple: An extra-fancy Fuji apple that has been bathed in a Concord grape flavoring. Fruit still tastes like an apple but it has a light grape smell and taste.

Pluot: This fruit is 70 percent plum and 30 percent apricot. It has a smooth skin and comes in about 20 varieties, including flavorosa (at left), an early-season variety with a bright red flesh. It has high sugar content, more than plums or apricots alone. Use in place of plums in most recipes.

Five hybrids we'd like to see

1. Pineanna (pineapple, banana) -- Easy-peeling, prickle-free tropical delight.

2. Canterberry (cantaloupe, strawberry) -- Tangy, bite-sized fruit good enough to inspire pilgrimages to the produce section.

3. Garnion (garlic, onion) -- Less chopping and no tears.

4. Tovacado (tomato, avocado) -- Mash for guacamole in a dash.

5. Rhuberry (rhubarb, strawberry) -- Now that's a pie!


(FACTIVA)
Barron's Mailbag: Of Grapes and Apples
171 words
10 April 1989
Barron's
English
(Copyright (c) 1989, Dow Jones & Co., Inc.)

To the Editor:

When the zanies begin to fool with the grape and apple -- two of my favorite foods (Up & Down Wall Street, March 27) -- they have gone beyond the pale.

Long a quaffer of the Concord's juices and a muncher of the mighty MacIntosh, I refuse to be intimidated. The poisoners of the grapes have incurred my wrath, the knockers of the apple have sliced me to the core.

Without the wine from the vine, my life would never have jelled. Without the seedless, my existence would be needless. Without the juice, I would have Welched on all my bets.

But ah! -- the apple -- so round and rosy red or grassy green, so firm and fully packed.

While the grapefuit remains longer in the public eye, and has more apeel, while the orange possesses navel superiority, nevertheless, the grape/apple combo, known in professional wrestling as the grapple, has given us a host of fruitful generations.

Harold J. Flinn

Madison, Tenn.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Topics of The Times
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 11, 1937. p. 20 (1 page):
   We recall a pre-war jingle which thus describes the vermiform appendix: "In the midst of your intestines, their interstices infesting, is a little alley dark and blind as night.  With a seed of grape or apple it is prone to stop and grapple.  As a pocket it is simply out of sight."

---------------------------------------------------------------
_ONLY IN NEW YORK_
   _400 Remarkable Answers to Intriguing Questions About New York City_
   _From the Reporters of the acclaimed weekly FYI column in The New York Times_
New York: St. Martin's Griffin
2004

   This book was just published this month.
   Page 109 answers "in like Flynn" and credits Edward J. Flynn.  Although my work on "in like Flynn" is recognized everywhere--I'm even named in Google Answers on this!--there's no mention here.
   Page 143 answers "honky tonk" and credits William Tonk and his pianos.  Sam Clements wrote the FYI guy about this directly and told him that he's wrong.  I mentioned the column here.  The FYI column is reprinted in the book, without any change at all.
   Page 146 answers "Tin Pan Alley."  "Although etymologists have found the expression used as early as 1902,..."  That information was from The Straight Dope.  And it didn't come from "etymologists."  It came from me.  Barry Popik.
   But the most lasting impression of the book is the cover and the title of it.
   ONLY IN NEW YORK.  That's the catchphrase of Cindy Adams, who writes for the New York Post.  She trademarked it.  However, I've posted here that "Only in New York" was used at least 50 years ago.
   On the ONLY IN NEW YORK book's cover is a Big Apple.
   "Big Apple"--the most frequently asked question about New York--is not in the book and has never been answered by FYI.
   Eight years ago, FYI briefly mentioned my work in connection to the New York Public Library's Telephone Answer Service.  But the text of the stablehands' speech, as given by John J. Ftiz Gerald in the 1920s, has still, incredibly, never made The New York Times.
   Yep, that's what life is like.  Only about 24 more free hours until another full week of parking tickets.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 27 03:25:59 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 23:25:59 -0400
Subject: Stir Frying; Chawan Mushi; Torrijas & Migas (1955)
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.232559.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   HOW TO EAT AND DRINK IN CHINESE is now selling for $285 a copy on Amazon!
   I've been going through CHEF D'OEUVRE.  Is the author of the following article the same Chao who wrote the above book (mentioned recently in The New York Times)?


   Number 3 Autumn 1955, CHEF D'OEUVRE, "The Oriental Touch" article series
Wang Chao
_CONFUCIUS KNEW BEST_
Pg. 42:  Su Tungp'o pork and Kiang bean-curd are named after writers.
Pg. 43:  The _Canton_ School...The _Fukien_ School...
   The _Shantung_ School is notable for having hardly any Chow dishes.  Like Hunan, it specializes, favouring dishes prepared with "wine-stock," "soft-frying" dishes, grilled duck (the famous "Peking duck") and swan's liver cooked in wine stock.
   The _Szechuen_ School is noted for hot-tasting dishes; also for ham, fungus dishes, vegetables cooked with chicken fat, and chicken meat wrapped in paper and fried.  It tends to oiliness.
   The _Kiangsu_ and _Yang Chow_ School is not (Pg. 44-ed.) as definite a school as the others, but has certain specialties: Chow shrimps, "Lion's head" (a meat ball), Chow eel, thinly sliced, Guann Shi (sliced bean-curd prepared with tasty broth), ham, crab, and Hung Shau fish (lightly fried, then cooked in a rich sauce).
    THE general methods of cooking used are in line with Western techniques: grilling, braising, steaming, deep-frying, etc.  However, one method had a character of its own and occupies a position of importance in China: Chow, which means "low-oil-quick-stir frying."


Number 2 Summer 1955, CHEF D'OEUVRE, "The Oriental Touch" article series
Pg. 64:  A light dish for ladies also features chicken: _chawanmushi_, steamed egg custard.  The chicken is covered with seasonal vegetables--in spring, lily bulbs and young peas in the pod, in autumn, mushrooms, chestnuts, trefoil, and gingko nuts--and an egg custard.


   Spring Number 1955, CHEF D'OEUVRE, "The Oriental Touch" article series
Pg. 47:  _Chupatties_, _papars_, _puries_ or _luchies_ are sent with some curries, but a guest may ask for these according to his fancy. (...)
   _Foogaths_ or _Bajees_ are a combination of vegetables fried with curry powder and are (pg. 48--ed.) very popular.
Pg. 48:  TANDUR cooking is another specialty.  The edibles are cooked in ovens made of bricks, or stone and clay, called Tandura.  Only cooks who specialize in this work are employed.
   Other well-known curries are _Vindaloos_ (pork and duck, etc., with a proportion of vinegar); and _Frithath_ curry, made in the same way--the hottest of curries.
   Parsee cooking is another specialty where large amounts of spices and coriander are used.
   _Kofta_, vegetables and egg curries, all appear on the menus, beside the numerous _Kabobs_ and _Parathas_ which are served with a garnishing of sliced raw onions, cucumbers, tomatoes and raw green chillies.


   Spring Number 1955, CHEF D'OEUVRE, pg. 66:
_MONKEY GLAND_
(The revised OED has 1968 for "monkey gland steak."  I mistaken thought the date was much earlier and didn't copy the full page--ed.)


   Spring Number 1955, CHEF D'OEUVRE, pg. 33:
_TORRIJAS_
   Take a sandwich loaf (preferably a small one) and cut several half-inch slices.  Soak the slices in cold milk and drain thoroughly.  Roll them in flour and beaten egg-yolk and fry golden brown on both sides in olive oil.  Drain well.  Make a syrup (beforehand if possible: it should be cool) as follows: dissolve 1/2 lb. sugar in 1 cup water over heat.  Flavour with a little cinnamon and lemon rind.  Boil for five minutes, cool and add a glass of white wine or sherry.  Pour this cool syrup over the hot Torrijas and serve.
Pg. 35:
_MIGAS_
   Dice a white loaf (crust and crumb) in half-inch cubes--the Spanish do not use a knife, but tear the bread.  Sprinkle the pieces with cold water and salt and leave in a damp cloth overnight.
   Allow 8 tbs. olive oil to each pound of bread.  Fry the pieces in this oil, adding garlic if you wish, until golden-brown.  Take off heat and cover for five minutes.
   The Migas can be served in various ways: with poached or fried eggs, slices of sausage, or sprinkled with paprika.  For sweeter tastes, they are served with chocolate or milky coffee.  A special way is called Migas Canas (white crumbs).  While frying, jam is poured over the Migas.  When the pan is taken off the fire, 1 pint of milk is added.  The Migas are eaten out of the pan--or else the milk and Migas are served separately, if you have formal guests!


TORRIJAS--721 English Google hits
CHAWAN MUSHI--1,860 Google hits, 86 Google Groups hits
(Both are not in OED)


(GOOGLE)
Members at The Guild of Food Writers
December 1999. Torrijas by Sarah Jane Evans. ... In fact Torrijas are simply a variation
of what is known in French as Pain Perdu, and in English as Eggy Bread. ...
www.gfw.co.uk/recipearchive/recipe1299.html - 17k - Jun 24, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
$25 and Under
Eric Asimov. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 29, 1994. p. C21 (1 page):
   As with everything else at El Cid, dessert is not to be missed.  Torrijas ($3.75), the specialty of the house, is a dish worthy of the designation.  It is simply a slice of bread soaked in egg, wine, cinnamon, citrus juice, honey and sugar and grilled in butter.  It sounds like french toast but tastes like a perfectly caramelized tarte Tatin.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 27 03:59:17 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 23:59:17 -0400
Subject: Stir Frying; Chawan Mushi; Torrijas & Migas (1955)
In-Reply-To: <38E1D88B.2817F250.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.235917.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>    HOW TO EAT AND DRINK IN CHINESE is now selling for $285 a copy on Amazon!
>    I've been going through CHEF D'OEUVRE.  Is the author of the
>following article the same Chao who wrote the above book (mentioned
>recently in The New York Times)?
>

No, a different Chao.  And probably no relation to Buwei and Yuen Ren
Chao--it's not an uncommon name.

ciao,
larry

>    Number 3 Autumn 1955, CHEF D'OEUVRE, "The Oriental Touch" article series
>Wang Chao


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 27 08:27:18 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 04:27:18 EDT
Subject: "Appetizing Store" (1914) or "Appy"
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.042718.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   FYI--that favorite section of the SUNDAY NEW YORK TIMES--has its first
lead question about the "appetizing store."  It's a little difficult for me to
check right now, but these stores did indeed dot the Lower East Side.  They
disappeared into the "appetizing sections" of supermarkets.
   FYI laments the disappearing "appetizing store," but evidently fails to
see that "gourmet" food stores are popping up all over.  There's no Zabar's?
There's no Eli's?  FYI has never been to the Whole Foods stores in Chelsea or in
the new Time Warner Center?
   My grandfather sold fruits; my late uncle worked in appetizing at Food
Fair.  He was one most appy fella.
   The dictionary coverage of "appetizing" and "appy" is, as usual, abysmal.


(NEW YORK TIMES)
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/27/nyregion/thecity/27fyi.html
    F.Y.I.
Appetizing Indeed
By MICHAEL POLLAK

Published: June 27, 2004

Q.  The "appetizing store," selling Nova Scotia salmon, lox, sturgeon,
whitefish, sable, bagels, bialys and the like, is a vanishing New York phenomenon.
The term does not appear to exist outside New York, although obviously these
products do. Where does this term come from?

A. It does seem to have a New York flavor, according to the owner of Russ &
Daughters, one of the most famous stores of this kind that survives. This
smoked-fish emporium at 179 East Houston Street (between Orchard and Allen Streets)
was opened by Joel Russ in 1914 as "Russ's Cut Rate Appetizers."

Mark Russ Federman, present owner of the store and son of Joel Russ's
daughter Anne, said he recently discussed the question of the name with his mother
and one of his aunts. The answer, he said, lies in the Jewish dietary laws,
under which meat and dairy products may not be eaten or sold together. Fish and
certain dairy products are sold together, like lox and cream cheese.

So two types of food stores sprang up. Stores that sold pickled, cured and
smoked meats were known as delicatessens. Another name was needed for stores
that sold fish and dairy products. Someone (Russ's daughters do not know who)
decided on "appetizing" as the alternative.

"I think 'appetizing' is fairly indigenous and fairly local to New York," Mr.
Federman said. Once, he said, there were 30 appetizing stores on the Lower
East Side alone.



(GOOGLE)
> ShopRite Career Opportunities
> ... Experience. Must have experience in a supermarket or related Appy or
Deli Department and a thorough understanding of Appy/Deli products. ...
www.shoprite.com/careers/descriptions.asp?id=1729 - 4k - Cached - Similar
pages
[ More results from www.shoprite.com ]


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Diminutives
... with the Lower East Side, New York, or yore, here are some more: A woman
shopping
in an "appy" (for the whitebread eaters, an appy is an "appetizing store", a
...
rec.humor.jewish - Dec 13, 1998 by Leon - View Thread (6 articles)


(OED)
Insulated, _ppl. a._
 1964 W. MARKFIELD To Early Grave (1965) x. 176 An appetizing store,
where..you can take home their potato salad in an insulated bag.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("appy")
Metropolitan Diary
Ron Alexander. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 30,
1995. p. C2 (1 page):
   I am at the "appetizing" counter of the local suburban supermarket, having
ordered a half-pound of Nova. (...)
   ...I approached the formidable Waldbaum's appetizing counter for the very
first time.  (...)
   I must admit that from that day forward I've been slightly intimdated when
taking my ticket at the appy counter, never knowing whether I'll get an order
of embarrassment and humility with my Nova.
   JACQUELINE FRANK


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("appetizing/appetizer store")
TO-DAY'S AUCTION SALES.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 7, 1914. p. 18 (1
page) :
Lenox Appetizing Store, 154 Lenox Ave.

Never Too Old to Spell
By BERTRAM REINITZ.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May
24, 1925. p. XX2 (1 page) :
   It was from old Peretz Chalken, retired from his appetizer store, that she
learned of a settlement house two blocks downtown from her home where age and
education got together for a two-hour session three times a week.


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 27 08:36:22 2004
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 04:36:22 EDT
Subject: gonna (was: double a-prefixing?)
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.043622.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/25/2004 1:18:00 PM Central Standard Time,
flanigan at OHIO.EDU writes:
It's not really so weird, and it's not quite future.  If you "formalize"
it, it's "I must have been going to write on it" = planning to, therefore
present perfect progressive?  But even if it's future gonna, think of "I'm
a-gonna do it"--not weird at all.
Right.  "I'm a-gonna do it" is totally not weird at all.  But still, "I musta
been a-gonna" strikes me with the big side of the *way odd* stick.  But the
more I think about it, the less I can pinpoint the weirdness.  At first I
thought it was the a-prefix with "gonna".  Then I thought it was just the rhythm
that it created.  But now I'm thinking that it's the "gonna" itself.  Something
about contractions crossing some kind of barrier is lurking in the back of my
mind.  Were I a better syntax student, I could probably figure out why, but
this *is* summer vacation.

On a separate, but mildly related, tangent, does anyone know anything about
the "gonna to" phenomena?  ex. "I'm gonna to do it.".  I searched the archives
with no luck.

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 27 10:25:57 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 06:25:57 EDT
Subject: "Limerick" and The Granta (1897)
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.062557.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED has "limerick" from only 1896.  Could it have started in the Cambridge
University publication, THE GRANTA?  Unfortunately, the NYPL does not have
these early years of it.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
  Bristol Times And Mirror  Tuesday, November 09, 1897 Bristol,
Gloucestershire
...47 votes Cambridge has a weakness for LIMERICKS. Tlie blowing, emanating
from..
Pg. 7, col. 8:
   Cambridge has a weakness for Limericks.  The following, emanating from
"The Granta," is going the round of the College rooms with attendant applause:--
      There once was a Marquis of Magdalene,
      Who was known as the idle young dagdelene.
         When he got up to dress
         It was never much less
      Than two hours that he wasted in dagdelene.
The point of the joke of course hangs on the fact that "Magdalene" is
pronounced "Maudlin" when the college is referred to.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.nonsenselit.org/Lear/limerick/deex.html
It is accepted today by virtually all limerick scholars that, short of a
spectacular revelation, we will never know the origins of the use of the word
Limerick to describe the five line verse. For a century, limerick enthusiasts have
groped and conjectured without any real success. The verses were known as
nonsense verses one day -- and the next, as limericks. It was as simple as that.

Bill Backe-Hansen, in a marvelous article ("The Origin of the Limerick as we
Know it,'' The Pentatette, September 1987) traces the serious and sometimes
outlandish theories.

I will attempt to flesh out that transition from nonsense verse to limerick
as best I can, not unlike the sculptor turned anthropologist who daubs clay on
some prehistoric fossilized skull to give us a glimpse at our hominid
ancestor.

The clues are few and far between:

An exchange of letters between Ambrose Beardsley and Leonard Smithers in 1896
and 1897 shows their familiarity with the word limerick. Beardsley's 1896
bawdy limerick (Ecstasy of St. Rose of Lima), although not identified as a
limerick, is the first complete limerick by a person who knew and used the term.

In October 1898 Cambridge University students knew the word and used it to
refer to two verses in The Cantab.
(WHAT ABOUT _THE GRANTA_?  IF IT'S THERE IN 1897 AND 1898, CAN'T WE DO
BETTER????--ed.)

An exchange of comments appeared in Notes and Queries in November and
December 1898 with respect to the connection between the word and the verse. James A.
H. Murray, founding editor of the Oxford English Dictionary, associated the
word limerick strictly with ``indecent nonsense verse.'' He went on to speak of
Ireland and the long-standing custom there of drinking and reciting.

Theories of French songs and the Limerick Brigade notwithstanding, my theory
goes something like this:

Lear's books of nonsense verse were known to everyone in the English speaking
world by the end of the nineteenth century. A number of wags had already
begun turning out bawdy verses (some based on Lear's verses) that we would
recognize today as limericks and probably do. Following Lear's example, the bawdy
verses were geographically oriented: The old man from _____; The lady from
______.

Pub habituals incorporated these bawdy nonsense verses into their Saturday
night ritual. A participant would sing a verse associated with a specific town,
probably working down the coast or working through the alphabet. If you failed
to meet your associates expectations it was chug-a-lug. Unrhymable Limerick
could always be counted on for a spectacular failure -- only salvageable by a
really gross verse. And so the bawdy nonsense verses came to be called
Limericks.

No other town or city was as troublesome as Limerick, not Aberystwth, not
East Wubley, not Shrovetide, not Greenwich.

Well into this century, the name was always capitalized. It is still spoken
with reverence at many gatherings, especially where strange colored liquid is
consumed. Oddly enough, university students are still singing limericks and
still chug-a-lugging.

Can any of this be proved? Unfortunately, no. Is it plausible? Definitely.
Will this theory survive? Until a better one comes along.

Ockam's razor tells us that the simplest of competing theories is preferable
and that an explanation should first be attempted in terms of what is already
known.

This theory explains why the Limerick/verse association was so slow to appear
in Victorian print (and then without an appreciation for its meaning or
usage), how it spread so quickly before it surfaced, and why it came to be
mistakenly connected with Irish origins.

(From The Pentatette, the Newsletter of the Limerick Special Interest Group,
XIII.1, October 1993.)


From ron.silliman at VERIZON.NET  Sun Jun 27 14:18:42 2004
From: ron.silliman at VERIZON.NET (Ron)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 10:18:42 -0400
Subject: "beatnik"--coined by Herb Caen?
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.101842.0400.>

The Herb Caen I knew certainly took credit for this -- and Sputnik was
definitely the source of the appended suffix.

Ron Silliman

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas G. Wilson [mailto:douglas at NB.NET]
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 2:00 AM
Subject: Re: "beatnik"--coined by Herb Caen?

>That claim, made tonight on Jeopardy, is supported by various web
>sites (the idea being that the San Francisco Chronicle columnist came
>up with the term in a 1958 column, of course as a blend of "beat
>(generation)" and "sputnik"), but does not appear in the OED entry
>for the word.  The RHHDAS does endorse the Herb Caen coinage, though.
>Are any antedates available, or is this an rare actual instance of a
>verifiable and attested coinage?

I can't refute the claim.

I suppose the basis for the coinage is "beat" + "-nik", with the
Russian/Yiddish suffix "-nik" possibly applied by analogy with the
already
available "nudnik", which was itself popularized ca. 1957 by its
association with "sputnik" IIRC. Just my naive notion.

-- Doug Wilson


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 27 15:34:28 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 08:34:28 -0700
Subject: gonna (was: double a-prefixing?)
In-Reply-To: <da.df89644.2e0fe106@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.083428.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 27, 2004, at 1:36 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote:

> ...On a separate, but mildly related, tangent, does anyone know
> anything about
> the "gonna to" phenomena?  ex. "I'm gonna to do it.".  I searched the
> archives
> with no luck.

hmmm..  i hadn't been aware of this, but there are piles of google hits
on "gonna to", many of them of the sort doug cites.  mostly from song
lyrics, apparently, but that's not so surprising, since most people
don't represent casual speech in their own writing, while transcribers
of lyrics often try to capture such features.

still, you could worry about the competence of the transcribers.
here's the webfitz.com version of the lyrics for the first few verses
of the ames brothers' version of the standard "Undecided" (this is
copied and pasted in, not re-typed):

You say yes
Then it's no
You say you'll stay
Then you go
Your undecided now
So what are you going to do

Fisrt you say you do and then you don't
And then you say you will and then you won't
Your undecided now
So what are you gonna to do

Now you want to play
And then it's no
And when you say you'll stay
That's when you go
Your undecided now
So what are you gonna to do

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), wanting to *hear* this performance,
since it's possible that the transcription is an orthographic blending
of <gonna> and <going to> -- but i assume doug has examples from speech


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Jun 27 17:18:57 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:18:57 -0400
Subject: Incest as a verb (was "fuck" in Wash Post)
In-Reply-To: <20040626124643.1375.qmail@web41508.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.131857.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, Jun 26, 2004 at 05:46:43AM -0700, Margaret Lee wrote:
> Yesterday on the Dr. Phil show, a female
> guest, 50-ish, said, "I was incested by two men in my
> family when I was a child."  (The guest (Anne) was
> discussing her addiction to sex.) I've never
> heard  'incest' used  as a verb.  Is anyone familiar
> with this usage?

We have a scattering of examples of this going back to the
mid-1980s. A recent sample:

2003 D. GAINES Misfit's Manifesto iv. 67 Miriam's father,
Moses (Betty's grandfather), had incested all four of his own
daughters.

I haven't searched for it, though. But it's definitely in
use.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Sun Jun 27 18:25:58 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:25:58 -0400
Subject: Bottles on the wall
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.142558.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The British version of the song is:

Ten green bottles, hangin' on the wall
Ten green bottles, hangin' on the wall
And if one green bottle should accident'ly fall
There'd be nine green bottles hangin' on the wall.

At least, I assume it's pan-British, since it's the only version of the song I
ever heard growing up.  Maybe it would be more honest to describe it as the
'English' version.

Anyway, the numbers of bottles can be altered to almost anything depending on
how long you want your song to be, but the default version is ten, and there's
never any beer involved.

The tune is clearly different from the tune of the American version, since the
metre is different, but it's actually very similar in style.  It's also used in
the same contexts:  primarily camp-fire singing, but also in other situations
where a lot of people are together with limited other stimuli and have to amuse
themselves, like on school 'bus trips.

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Sun Jun 27 18:35:02 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:35:02 -0400
Subject: Point-three (of a) percent
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.143502.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As renditions of '.3%' or '0.3%', both 'point-three of a percent' and the bare
'point-three percent' sound fine to my Standard Southern British ear.

Figures below one bring up something else that still looks strange to me after a
year living in the States, though (though it isn't necessarily connected to how
the figure is rendered in speech, clearly).  That is that I still can't write
'.3%' and think it looks normal;  it has to be '0.3%', though I can see the
logic of omitting the '0' (it makes tables of figures below one easier to
interpret, for one thing).

Correspondingly, I can say 'Nought point three (of a) percent' and it sounds
fine, though I think it is slightly more usual (for me, at least) to omit the
'nought' in speech.  Maybe that's because I often have to say figures below
one, as anyone who ever deals with stats does, and the 'nought' is unnecessary
to convey the meaning if you're going to say the 'point' anyway.

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 27 19:25:20 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 12:25:20 -0700
Subject: the f-word
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.122520.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

some reflections on "fuck" occasioned by our vice-president's
deployment of the word in public...

i understand that our attitudes about "indecent" vocabulary don't make
a lot of sense.  it's widely held that a small number of words are
intrinsically harmful to children; people seem to think that this
either so self-evidently true as not to need defense or demonstration,
or else too passionately held to allow for challenge (if you maintain
that children know these words and aren't particularly affected by
them, you risk being labeled as immoral, indecent, perverted yourself).
  so the treatment of l'affaire cheney in the media is hilariously
constrained as reporters try to convey what was said without clearly
alluding to the f-word, even by "the f-word" or "f**k" or some
euphemism; instead, we are merely told that cheney used an obscenity or
that he told leahy to do something that leahy wasn't able to do.

not very long ago, the FCC had an almost rational position on "fuck".
the first time around, bono was not censured for using the adverbial
epithet "fuckin'".  though no one laid the reasoning out (that would
have required using the word and discussing its meanings), this
position could be defended on the grounds that there are two different
words "fuck": the coital verb (and related noun), which is censurable
on two grounds, its meaning and its register, and the mere expletive
(noun, verb, or adverb in "-in'"), which is only registrally
restricted.  it might make some sense to restrict the first but not the
second (in the appropriate context).

something like this seems to have been done for "piss".  non-excretory
"piss", as in the american idiom "piss off" 'anger' (or the british
idiom "piss off" 'depart' or several other uses), appears with some
frequency on television shows, without warnings about "strong
language", even in shows like Buffy the Vampire Slayer.  excretory
"piss" definitely counts as a word needing a "strong language" warning,
if it can be aired at all.

but non-excretory "piss" seems to be a small exception, and a fairly
recent one.  there's an implicit hierarchy of indecency for obscenities
(no one really defends or explains this; it's just something everyone's
supposed to know), and "piss" is towards the lower end, maybe a bit
above expletive or figurative "balls" and "ass" (as in "get your ass
over here" and "dumb-ass(ed) idea"), definitely below "shit", which
even in its purely expletive uses ("oh, shit! the damn thing broke!")
is problematic, and way below "asshole" and "fuck".

in any case, in the second round the FCC reversed itself and went for
the position that "fuck" is bad, no matter what; the word itself is
indecent, and the government can levy stiff fines on you for using it
in public.  note the implicit assumption that there is a *single word*
"fuck" here (contrary to what i said above).

unfortunately, censors can appeal to the dictionaries on this point.
as i have complained in other contexts, dictionaries have entries that
are etymologically organized, with almost complete disregard for the
consequences of linguistic change, even linguistic change that happened
hundreds of years ago.  the preposition "to" and the infinitive marker
"to" are in a single entry; they are "the same word".  ditto
exclamatory "boy" and "boy" 'male child'.  ditto coital "fuck" and
expletive "fuck".  from a synchronic point of view, none of these
should be treated as a single lexical item.

(as a quick look at jesse sheidlower's The F-Word will confirm, there
are many different expletives here: the bare-noun exclamation "fuck!",
the negative-polarity noun "fuck" of "give a fuck", the wh-extender
noun "fuck" of "what the fuck?", the deprecatory nouns
"(mother)fucker", the verb of exclamatory "fuck it!", the adverb
"fuckin'".  these have different syntax, different semantics and
pragmatics, and even different euphemistic substitutes: for many
speakers, "fudge" is available only for the bare-noun exclamation,
"freak" only in adverb "freakin'" for "fuckin''", "frig" for
verbal/adverbial "fuck", including the coital verb, etc.  it's also
true that there are occurrences of "fuck" that are not easily
classifiable as expletive or coital -- in particular, "fuck you!" and
the veepish "(go) fuck yourself!".)

so now the u.s. censors are going on an entirely superficial criterion
for indecency: an utterance of /f^k/, a glimpse of a nipple.  i'd laugh
if it weren't so serious.  when KRON-TV broadcast the Bay to Breakers
race back in may, and when it broadcasts Gay Pride today (i'm watching
it as i type, having missed my chance to march with mabel teng's
contingent), the station has to avoid transmitting images of naughty
bits, in a way it never had to before.  not only are female breasts
off-limits, but apparently buttocks (of any sex or gender) are out too,
and the reporters on the street have to go through elaborate
precautions to prevent the cameras from catching anything that could
subject them to a heavy fine.  "no, no, don't pan to the left!" they
cry, worrying about what might be shown on bay area tv.  san francisco
is a tolerant city, and at these public events even full frontal
nudity, even in front of children, is ok (there's apparently a special
dispensation for spectacles) -- so long as it doesn't get shown on tv.

but now for something a little bit different...

i've been wondering what would happen if, say, sir paul mccartney was
caught on tape in a moment of astonishment, dismay, or pain, saying
"fook!", that is /fUk/.  now, for american speakers, this is "a
differerent word" from "fuck", as different as "book" from "buck" or
"look" from "luck".  so is this ok, not actionable?  (help me here,
bethany.)  or does sir paul's *intention* to say "the same word as"
american english "fuck" rule here?

if intention is the key thing, then we're in trouble with all those
instances of ostentatious avoidance: the spelling <f**k>, "the f-word",
"fudge/freak/frig/etc.", "Muck Fichigan" and "Buck Fush", where the
intention is absolutely clear.

my guess is that sir paul would (now) be in trouble on the american
airwaves.  i know for sure that "Muck Fichigan" didn't get you in
trouble in ohio, in a time when "Fuck Michigan" would have landed you
in court.  how are these two cases distinguished?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 27 19:31:38 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 15:31:38 EDT
Subject: Peanut Butter Sandwich (January 1896); Peanut Politics (April
 1887)
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.153138.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  "Peanut butter" is often given as being "discovered" or "popularized" at 
the 1904 World's Fair.  BEYOND THE ICE CREAM CONE: THE WHOLE SCOOP ON FOOD AT 
THE 1904 WORLD'S FAIR (2004) doesn't have much to say, except that it's not 
true.  The book is so bad that it never cites PEANUTS (2002) by Andrew F. Smith.
   Smith gives May 1896 (GOOD HOUSEKEEPING) for the first "peanut 
sandwiches," but we can take that back to at least January 1896, with a hint that it had 
come into vogue in the fall of 1895.
   The July 1897 CHICAGO TRIBUNE "peanut butter" citation here is of 
interest.
   Smith gives 1925 for "peanut brittle" (Pg. 156), but we can take that back 
to at least 1892.
  Smith mentions on page 31: "This unnamed physician reportedly gave the 
recipe to George A. Bayles, who, it was claimed, was the first to manufacture 
peanut butter."  His name was Bayle--not Bayles--and Bayle's Peanut Butter first 
shows up on the databases in the 1910s.
   Lastly, I'll nail down "peanut politics."
   I can do more, but I've got other things to do today.
  
  
(IED)
peanut butter
1903 Harper's Mag. Oct. 981 Four sandwiches... Two of wholewheat bread with 
peanut butter. 1926-7 Army & Navy Stores Catal. 2/2 Peanut Butter jarseach 1/-. 
1974 ‘R. B. DOMINIC’ Epitaph for Lobbyist xiii. 113 A carnival with peanut 
butter fudge made by the Soroptimists. 1977 Time 14 Mar. 42/2, I grew up on 
peanut butter sandwiches.
  
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("peanut butter")
    1.  FOR A TRUST IN PEANUTS; NEWPORT NEWS COMBINE CORNERS THE "GOOBER" 
MARKET. Has So Far Manipulated a Jump of One Cent A Pound and Menaced Dealers 
Expect to See It Three Before the End--Visible Stocks and Their 
Localities--Effect on Venders and Confectioners and Their Customers--Importance of the Crop. 
Effect on Retail Trade. Economic Uses for Peanuts. 
Chicago Daily. Jul 2, 1897. p. 10 (1 page):
   Ex-Senator Hill of New York has been termed a "peanut politician," to 
typify some of his methods.  That use of the peanut to illustrate little things, 
is a great constructive libel.
   Peanuts are no little thing.  Before the war "goober nuts" were thought 
nothing of in Virginia, the Carolinas, and Tennessee, the States to which they 
are indigenous.  Now their cultivation afffords employment to thousands of 
people.  The value of the crop of the four States at three cents a pound, which it 
may command at first hands, approximates $3,000,000.  Improved methods of 
cultivation have been introduced, ingenious machinery for cleaning and handling 
devised, and a trade worked up which includes a large section of the globe.
      _Economic Uses for Peanuts._
   The active brains of American inventors have found new economic uses for 
the peanut.  A peanut butter, first designed for invalids, but now sold with 
other food products, is made simply by crushing the nuts into a paste and adding 
water.  Sales of this article is increasing above that of dairy butter.
   Several European governments have placed in the list of rations for their 
armies in the field a nourishing soup made mostly of peanuts.  They use the 
American and African nut for the purpose.
     
    2.  Toothsome Sandwiches of Peanuts.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 3, 1897. p. 24 (1 
page)    
>From the Ladies' Home Journal.
(...)  Or you may buy for these a peanut butter.
     
    3.  BUSINESS.; FINANCIAL AND COMMERCIAL COMMERCIAL. THE FLORIDA ORANGE 
CROP. GENERAL BUSINESS TOPICS. 
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 26, 1897. p. 
12 (1 page) 
     
    4.  Stock Quote 1 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 1, 1898. p. 
12 (1 page) 
     
    5.  THE SANDWICH TREE.; A CHARMING NOVELTY FOR SPRING AND SUMMER PARTIES. 

MILLICENT ARROWPOINT. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, 
Calif.: Mar 19, 1899. p. 22 (1 page) 
     
    6.  THE DAIRY.; Peanut Butter. Butter From Alfalfa. 
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 19, 1899. p. 
13 (1 page)  
    
    
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("peanut sandwich")
    1.  WOMAN ABOUT TOWN.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 2, 1896. p. 17 (1 
page) :HAVE you eaten of the very latest dish?  I say latest in every sense of the 
word, for it's a dish that goes with the midnight Welsh rabbit, and is the 
newest and best sort of a sandwich.  You take fresh bread and perfect butter.  
Then you have some fresh roasted peanuts--it's the fad to roast them 
yourself--ground fine in a coffee mill.  Next yopu mix the ground nuts into a paste with 
a little sherry or old port, spread them on the bread and there you have the 
sandwich everybody is eating.  You may substitute mayonnaise for sherry, or 
add a drop of almond essence, but a peanut sandwich you must have if you are to 
follow the fashion set, they say, by the wife if a Cabinet member.   
    
    2.  Inexpensive Decorations of Green.
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Feb 15, 1896. p. 16 (1 
page):
      _Recipe for Peanut Sandwiches._
   The latest addition to the 5 o'clock tea table is peanut sandwiches.  Do 
not roll the nut meats, but pound them in a mortar with a little salt until 
they are very fine.  Spread bread, that has been cut very thin, with butter, and 
then with the nut paste.  Place two pieces together and cut the sandwich round 
or in a triangle.
    
    3.  Toothsome Sandwiches of Peanuts.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 3, 1897. p. 24 (1 
page)    
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("peanut sandwich")
   Daily Northwestern   Saturday, January 11, 1896 Oshkosh, Wisconsin   
...duringher absence. Although the PEANUT SANDWICH was a last 
winter's.....strips or triangles of bread. Another SANDWICH much in vogue, to be served..
Pg. 5, col. 3:
   Although the peanut sandwich was a last winter's debutante, its popularity 
shows no signs of waning.  To make it as it should be, remove the shells and 
skins from freshly roasted peanuts.  Chop very fine, mix with a little 
Mayonnaise dressing and spread between thin strips or triangles of bread. 
    
   Daily Northwestern   Saturday, January 25, 1896 Oshkosh, Wisconsin   
...One gown is of royal blue velvet, The PEANUT SANDWICH is often a welcome j 
a.....gold brocade, while the colly mask-1 PEANUT meats. Make into aj jar 
arui..  
  
    
   Perry Bulletin   Thursday, March 12, 1896 Perry, Iowa    
...addition to the 5 o'clock tea table is PEANUT SANDWICHES. Do not roll the 
nut.....Place two pieces together and cut tho SANDWICHES round or in a 
triangle. It..
    
   Daily Northwestern   Friday, June 05, 1896 Oshkosh, Wisconsin    
...tableshould bnvf salted PEANUTs and PEANUT SANDWICHES on Us menu, and 
should.....brilliancy. New York Times. A Permit A PEANUT party is sreat fun for 
children.. 
    
     
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("peanut brittle")
Other 19 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 2, 1892. p. 
16 (1 page) :
      _A Wonderful Increase._
   The trade in our line of home-made candies has increased within the last 
two or three weeks so greatly that we are compelled to enlarge and put another 
candy maker to work.  We make a line of nut candies, taffies, etc., which we 
sell at 25 cents per pound, which have become very popular, and we are selling 
large quantities of them.  We are going to introduce a new line of butter 
cups, peanut brittle, New England peanut, honeycomb, honey taffy, etc., that will 
be entirely new here, and from which we expect large sales.  Keep your eye on 
us, as we are going to lead in the candy business this season.  T. A. Gardner, 
manager.  "The Keystone," 112 N. Spring street.
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("peanut brittle")
 Middletown Daily Press     Monday, February 06, 1893 Middletown, New York      

...of 3 OB IS North St. aad 8 King St., PEANUT BRITTLE Good the more you 
eat..    
    
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("Bayle" and "peanut butter")
   Chronicle Telegram   Wednesday, March 28, 1990 Elyria, Ohio  
...the spread, for 6 cents a pound. BAYLE PEANUT BUTTER cans from the 1910s 
bear.....surgeon who patented the first PEANUT BUTTER grinder. Kellogg made 
PEANUT..    
      
 Daily Review   Sunday, April 12, 1914 Decatur, Illinois    
...Colonial Salt. 1 Jar BAYLEs PEANUT BUTTER Geo. A. BAYLE's Food Products 
1.....Hayle's Food Products... .1 jar PEANUT BUTTER Peter Hossi AND Sons. .1 
pkg..
    
   Fort Wayne News And Sentinel     Tuesday, February 18, 1919 Fort Wayne, 
Indiana    
...Spare Bibs, Ib. .18c BAYLE Quality PEANUT BUTTER, It's pure AND 
wholesome.....Raisins, 2 pkgs. for. .25c Bulk PEANUT BUTTER, pound. .18c Apple BUTTER, 
pound..
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("peanut politics")
 Olean Democrat     Thursday, April 03, 1890 Olean, New York    
...In such a wide field of statesmanship "PEANUT POLITICS" has no part. 
Another.....has becomejmore than an issue of POLITICS. It has become "a matter of..
    
   Daily Northwestern   Thursday, April 28, 1887 Oshkosh, Wisconsin     
...Republicans have coined the phrase "PEANUT POLITICS" in connection with 
Gov.....that gentleman's annoyance. The term "PEANUT" is indeed suggestive of 
roasting..
Pg. 2, col. 2:
   The Cleveland Democrats and Republicans have coined the phrase "Peanut 
Politics" in connection with Gov. Hill's attitude toward the presdiency, very 
much to that gentleman's annoyance.  The term "peanut" is indeed suggestive of 
roasting.

     
(OED)
peanut politics
1887 N. York Mail & Express 27 May (Farmer Amer.), If the Governor would 
consent not to play peanut politics.
 


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 27 19:41:53 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 12:41:53 -0700
Subject: [SPAM:####] Re: Incest as a verb (was "fuck" in Wash Post)
In-Reply-To: <20040627171857.GA10499@panix.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.124153.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 27, 2004, at 10:18 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> ...We have a scattering of examples of this going back to the
> mid-1980s...

my colleague beth levin, who collects zero derivation, -ise, and -ify,
didn't have it.  (but she does now.)

arnold


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 27 21:48:54 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:48:54 -0700
Subject: another version of "grammar" = everything
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.144854.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

the usual version is that "grammar" = everything to do with language:
syntax, morphology, word choice, pronunciation, spelling, and
punctuation (at least).  this time, it's "syntax":

Barry Bearak, "Poor Man's Burden", NYT Magazine, 6/27/04, p. 32, about
Lula da Silva, president of Brazil:

His speech lacked syntax; he cut off the S's on his plurals like a
peasant.

---------------

of course, it's possible that Bearak meant these to be two separate
claims (note semicolon, rather than colon), rather than a claim
followed by an illustrative example.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Jun 27 23:54:21 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 19:54:21 -0400
Subject: Absolute "not so much" = "not really"
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.195421.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I first heard "not so much" on the sitcom "May About You," where it was a characteristic phrase of the character Paul Buchman, played by the sitcom creator, Paul Reiser.  From a 1992 episode, "Sofa's Choice," first aired on 9/30/1992:  "As a couch, I liked it.  And as a `love seat,' not so much."  It's a humorous phrase whose impact comes from understatement.  I suspect that Reiser popularized it.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Jesse Sheidlower
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 10:08 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Absolute "not so much" = "not really"


A friend has observed the recent (?) currency of the phrase
"not so much" used absolutely, i.e. without any following
correlative prepositional phrase or complement, in a meaning
something like 'no; not at all; not really'. He said he first
noticed it as something the Leo McGarry character on _West
Wing_ says. We have only a few examples:

2004 _Hotdog_ Apr. 10/1 A romantic thriller?
Interesting. Starring Josh Hartnett? Not so much.

2004 _N.Y. Times_ 15 June B1 (headline) The Killer Gown Is
Essential, but the Prom Date? Not So Much.

It sounds perfectly natural to me, so of course I can't think
of when I first heard it. Anyone have any grammatical or other
observations? Larry? Arnold?

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Jun 28 00:17:41 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 20:17:41 -0400
Subject: slang (was Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay])
In-Reply-To: <19846FBD-C70B-11D8-8D49-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.201741.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 05:52:29PM -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>
> the deeper point is that linguistics can't just take over
> ordinary-language vocabulary about language (which, after all,
> represents some rough folk theory about these matters, one that
> probably embodies some insight but was never intended as a systematic
> analysis of the domain) and elevate it to scientific status.  instead,
> you need to start by asking what concepts are needed, and then choose
> terminology.

Arnold,

I guess the question here is "Is Slang a Word for Linguists?"
a question asked and perhaps answered in an American Speech
article with that title, by Bethany Dumas and Jonathan Lighter
some years ago.

> so it is with slang.  "slang" is a piece of ordinary-language
> metavocabulary.  at its broadest, it takes in every sort of expression
> that (for whatever reason) isn't appropriate in the general formal
> written standard language; this is the parallel to something being a
> "short spelling" (for whatever value of "short").  at its narrowest,
> it's stuff that's informal, spoken, nonstandard, restricted to some
> social group (where it serves as a group marker), and ephemeral.  in
> between, there's all *sorts* of stuff, and it really makes no sense to
> ask if these things are *really* slang.  the concept of "slang" isn't
> given ahead of time, lying out there, just waiting for us to figure out
> its shape and nature.
>
> our business is to figure out what concepts play a role in this domain
> of language use and then to choose good terminology for them.  maybe we
> can find a place for the word "slang" in there, maybe not.  meanwhile,
> though, we're just thrashing around, bewitched by words.

Dumas and Lighter thought, and I think, that "slang" can be a
useful word for linguists, and that we can make some attempt
to come up with a definition that will be useful in a
linguistic way. Perhaps we can agree that the "folk" use of
"slang" (the word) is something we won't get upset about, that
we won't walk down the street with our linguists' rulers,
thwacking the knuckles of those who say that _bikini_ or
_ain't_ or _between you and I_ is "slang". But we can still
try to reserve some of the word's utility for our purposes.

There are more specific words for certain types of
shortenings, and in any case, it wouldn't be that bad if we
adopted new ones in technical contexts. "Slang", though, is
sort of on its own. I can't publish a dictionary called _The
Historical Dictionary of American Words and Phrases That Are
Informal, Chiefly Spoken, Serving as a Group Marker esp. for a
Marginalized Group, and Often Ephemeral_. It's too useful to
jettison.

Jesse Sheidlower, who thinks that "Ms" should not have a
period


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Jun 28 02:58:15 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 22:58:15 -0400
Subject: "Wet dry run" (1943)
In-Reply-To: <60.40a96f3f.2e0f14f1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.225815.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

By 1943, "a dry run" already meant "a practice run" (rather than "a run
without water being thrown", the earlier firefighters' sense).

So what would one call a practice run which included throwing water?

"A wet dry run"?

http://www.stripes.com/ww2/stories/rooney08.html

----------

_Stars and Stripes_, 17 March 1943:

[AIr base crash team]

<<There aren't any brass poles, and no false alarms, but there is plenty of
authentic firehouse atmosphere around the place. Regularly the crash crews
go tearing out on a dry run; once in a while they empty the 400-gallon tank
on their truck in a wet dry run.>>

----------

-- Doug Wilson


From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU  Mon Jun 28 10:53:52 2004
From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 06:53:52 -0400
Subject: Absolute "not so much" = "not really"
In-Reply-To: <36a8i8$2kofsv@ironman.mail.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.065352.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This "not so much" is not so much "not really" as it is "no" or "not at
all". Did the ever-original "Friends" writers popularize a certain rhythm
to it? Probably. Were they the first to use it that way? Not so much.
"Friends" puts this phrase in the mouth of at least four of the characters
and in many episodes. It became predictable comedic patter, and shows up in
the speech and webspeech of my generation and younger much more often since
the later "Friends" years. Not a bad argument for the TV phenomenon.

Below is a use of the "not so much" as "no" in a headline that pre-dates
the show. Notice that it doesn't have a question or ellipse and then short
"not so much" that is typical today. (You could still argue that there is
an understood "not so much the money [as a matter of pride]".)

HEADLINE: How many kids did Elvis have? Nine --- or one? It's not so much
the money, although 'The King' left $200 million --there's prestige at
stake among the claimants to the Presley name
The Toronto Star
May 17, 1987

Here is an online chat site showing that the "Friends" rhythm is so popular
that it has become a cliche in our generation.
http://www.movie-fan-forum.com/movies/Im_banning_the_two_much_jokes_637311.html
I've noticed that the "? nsm" and "... nsm" structures have attained plague
status among newspaper headline writers this year.


*******************************************************************************************************************

At 01:17 PM 6/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Absolute "not so much" = "not really"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>So, this "not so much" thing still sounds very new/affected even though I use
>it quite often.  It still feels like a quote, and sure enough... here it is
>in "Friends".  I have no doubt that that's where I got it from, but I won't
>guess about the origin.
>I found this "Friends" transcript online (http://www.eigo-i.com/friends/).
>-dsb
>Douglas S. Bigham


From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU  Mon Jun 28 11:45:32 2004
From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 07:45:32 -0400
Subject: Absolute "not so much" = "not really"
In-Reply-To: <36a8i8$2kofsv@ironman.mail.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.074532.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just a few sightings. Some pre-sitcom. Incidence increases around 1995,
concurrent with increase in "Friends" repetition of the nsm gag.


The Economist
February 26, 1977
HEADLINE: The LSE;
Not so much an uprising

The Economist
March 22, 1980
HEADLINE: China, Japan and America;
Not so much a trio

The Economist
December 4, 1982
HEADLINE: Not so much a riot

Sydney Morning Herald
January 19, 1990 Friday
HEADLINE: NOT SO MUCH FUN
(about getting thrown from a boogie board and winding up with a concussion,
no fun at all)

CBS News Transcripts
CBS THIS MORNING (7:00 AM ET)
November 13, 1990, Tuesday
Paula Zahn: Let's check in with Mark. Hopefully, there's better weather
news outthere this morning.
Mark McEwen: Well, thank you, Paula. Thank you, Harry. Not so much--not
real better news today.

Financial Times (London,England)
November 2, 1991, Saturday
HEADLINE: Not so much Mozart . . .;
(about a film series titled "Not Mozart")

Minnesota Public Radio. All Rights Reserved
SAVVY TRAVELER
July 21, 2001 Saturday
[transcript]
Rudy Maxa: Well, Diana, tell me, what is your favorite food? I'm sort of
guessing French.
Diana Nyad: Yeah, you know, not so much. Heavy sauces and all that. I--I
tell you the truth, the grill. Back yard, shrimp on the barbie. You can't
do better than that for me.

The New York Times
February 26, 2003 Wednesday
HEADLINE: The College Remembers Lehman; Its Students, Not So Much

The Daily Herald-Tribune (Grande Prairie, Alberta)
April 4, 2003 Friday Final Edition
HEADLINE: WAY TO GO!;
EXPOS OFF TO FINE START; BRAVES...NOT SO MUCH






*************************************************************
"Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children,
practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."
--Rev. Pat Robertson


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Mon Jun 28 12:25:23 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 08:25:23 -0400
Subject: "f**k" in WashPost
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.082523.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Subject line altered to make spamkillers happy.

From:    Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>

: Followers of vulgarity may be interested to see that today's
: Washington Post includes the word "fuck" printed in full,
: with no dashes or asterisks, on page A4. The article concerns
: our Vice President's use of the term in the Senate:

<snip>

:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3699-2004Jun24.html

And, for a bit of _Post_ history that AFAICT hasn't been mentioned in this
discussion, from Dana Milbank's "White House Insiders" online chat Friday 25
June (which included a good bit of discussion of the Cheney-Leahy exchange):

===

Washington, D.C.: Regarding this morning's article about Cheney's use of an
expletive, I thought it was a perfectly reasonable editorial decision to run
the article the way it ran, with the expletive and all, but I've heard a lot
of criticism (most of which is probably partisan). I'm just curious,
however, about what kind of editorial discussion there was at the Washington
Post regarding the article -- I think that's the first time I've seen that
particular expletive used in a Post article. Was it put on A4 because of
that? Etc.?

Dana Milbank: I'll leave the explanations of editorial decisions to my
superiors, but as a historical matter, that expletive appeared in the paper
in 1998 when it was used in the Starr report.

===

Another interesting bit later on, showing that it's not simply an editorial
decision to quote expletives:

===

Kansas City, Mo.: Your column on the Leahy/Cheney exchange notes that Kerry
used similar language in December. Was that reported in the Washington Post?
I read faithfully every day, but that was news to me.

Dana Milbank: Kerry used the same naughty word in an interview with Rolling
Stone. The Post did not repeat that word then, nor did it repeat the word
when Bush used it in 1999 in an interview with Talk magazine.

===

The entire chat is available at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25168-2004Jun8.html?referrer=email

The first exchange came fairly early in the session, the second one about
halfway through.

<snip>

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 28 13:57:49 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:57:49 EDT
Subject: Peanut Butter Sandwich (January 1896); Peanut Politics (April
 1887)
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.095749.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Sun, 27 Jun 2004 15:31:38 EDT,   Bapopik at AOL.COM

>     Smith gives May 1896 (GOOD HOUSEKEEPING) for the first "peanut
>  sandwiches," but we can take that back to at least January 1896, with a
hint
>   that it had come into vogue in the fall of 1895.
>     The July 1897 CHICAGO TRIBUNE "peanut butter" citation here is of
interest.
     <parsnip>
>    Smith mentions on page 31: "This unnamed physician reportedly gave the
>  recipe to George A. Bayles, who, it was claimed, was the first to
manufacture
>  peanut butter."  His name was Bayle--not Bayles--and Bayle's Peanut Butter
> first shows up on the databases in the 1910s.

According to URL http://www.peanutbutterlovers.com/history/

<quote>
Around the same time, Dr. John Harvey Kellogg in Battle Creek, Michigan,
began experimenting with peanut butter as a vegetarian source of protein for his
patients. His brother, W.K. Kellogg, was business manager of their sanitarium,
the Western Health Reform Institute, but soon opened Sanitas Nut Company which
supplied foods like peanut butter to local grocery stores.

The Kelloggs' patent for the "Process of Preparing Nut Meal" in 1895
described "a pasty adhesive substance that is for convenience of distinction termed
nut butter." However, their peanut butter was not as tasty as peanut butter
today because the peanuts were steamed, instead of roasted, prior to grinding. The
Kellogg brothers turned their attention to cereals which eventually gained
them worldwide recognition.
</quote>

Well, this isn't "peanut butter" but it is close, and hopefully will be of
some help.

My local grocery sells "nut butter" which is a peanut-butter-like food made
from tree nuts.

To my surprise, peanut butter was NOT invented by George Washington Carver.

OT: my daughter has relegated BIll Clinton to the kitchen.  "Why would a
publisher give a ten million dollar advance," she asks, "for 957 pages of
hyperbowl?"

               - Jim Landau


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Jun 28 14:42:36 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:42:36 -0400
Subject: "Skank" redux
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.104236.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I first heard the word now spelled "skank" in Saint Louis,
ca.1950, I wondered whether it should be spelled: "skink" or "skank,"
given that either of these spellings would be pronounced "skank,"
because slang terms are always pronounced as soulfully ("The name of
this song is 'This Here,' but, _for purposes of soul_, we gon' cawl it,
'Disshih-uh.'" -Cannonball Adderly) as possible.

It was also the case, in those days in Saint Louis, that it was class,
not morals, that determined whether a girl was a skank. At that time,
the Pruitt-Igoe Homes, to this day, the largest housing project ever
built, was located in Saint Louis. Girls from the poverty-stricked
families that were forced to live in this project were called
"skinks/skanks" or "skags" by middle-class black teen-aged boys, with
no reference made to their morals. However, it goes without  saying
that, despite the lack of any evidence in support of this assumption,
as is usually the case, boys from the better classes felt that girls
from the lower orders were somehow more promiscuous than their
middle-class counterparts. There was even a term for going on the hunt
for these girls: "skink-/skank-making" or "skag-making."


From debaron at UIUC.EDU  Mon Jun 28 15:12:25 2004
From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:12:25 -0500
Subject: passing
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.101225.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In today's NY Times, Brent Staples, discussing the phenomenon of
"passing for white," says, "The people who abandoned their families
were described as 'passed' -- a euphemism for dead." (NYT 10-28-04, p.
A18. To pass for (=pretend to be, or be recognized as) something else
goes back in the OED to the 16th c, and in this same sense, to pass for
white, to the 1930s. But in Nella Larsen's novel "Passing," there is a
sense of both meanings of passing, pretense and death. Are both senses
now current, or is the 'death' explanation replacing what I take to be
the earlier sense of the word?

Dennis


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Jun 28 15:21:31 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 11:21:31 -0400
Subject: passing
In-Reply-To: <8FBF9372-C915-11D8-8A9F-00039303FF34@uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.112131.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 10:12:25AM -0500, Dennis Baron wrote:
> In today's NY Times, Brent Staples, discussing the phenomenon of
> "passing for white," says, "The people who abandoned their families
> were described as 'passed' -- a euphemism for dead." (NYT 10-28-04, p.
> A18. To pass for (=pretend to be, or be recognized as) something else
> goes back in the OED to the 16th c, and in this same sense, to pass for
> white, to the 1930s. But in Nella Larsen's novel "Passing," there is a
> sense of both meanings of passing, pretense and death. Are both senses
> now current, or is the 'death' explanation replacing what I take to be
> the earlier sense of the word?

No, _pass_ 'pretend to be (higher-status person)' is very common still.

A few recent examples, out of many:

2000 C. WEST & D. H. ZIMMERMAN in M. S. Kimmel & A. Aronson
Gendered Soc. Reader 135 As in the case of others who must
`pass,' such as transvestites, Kabuki actors, or Dustin
Hoffman's `Tootsie,' Agnes's case makes visible what culture
has made invisible?the accomplishment of gender.

2000 Newsweek 1 Jan. 30/1 If people with `black blood' can now
be white or at least not black, what becomes of the concept of
passing? Passing, after all, implies a denial of one's
authentic ancestry to be accepted as a member of another race.

2003 N.Y. Times (National ed.) 8 Aug. B30/6 When he copied the
images, he sorted them into categories: `Drag queens; porn;
Gay Rights/protests; AIDS; trying to be like straight people
(passing); Military; Art.'

2004 Independent (Tabloid ed.) 14 Apr. 35/1 His ability to
`pass' for white was later to enable him to play the major
vaudeville circuits in the 1920s, when there was strict
segregation.

We also have loads of examples of the 'die' sense, of course.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Jun 28 16:09:23 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 12:09:23 -0400
Subject: Point-three (of a) percent
In-Reply-To: <1088361302.40df1356bfff5@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.120923.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Damien Hall writes:
>As renditions of '.3%' or '0.3%', both 'point-three of a percent' and the bare
>'point-three percent' sound fine to my Standard Southern British ear.
 ~~~~~~~~~
Thanks.
I *think*  we would usually say either:

"three tenths of a percent"
or
"point three percent,"

so that "point three of a percent" sounds like a blend.

A. Murie


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Mon Jun 28 18:13:03 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:13:03 -0400
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.141303.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse Sheidlower's signoff in his most recent message -

'Jesse Sheidlower, who thinks that "Ms" should not have a
period'

- has inspired me to ask about the following.  I think it
may be a simple transatlantic difference, but I'd be interested to know what
others think.

For me, prescriptively, if I might be so bold, no abbreviation should have a
period after it unless that period actually replaces letters, so correct forms
are:

Ms
Mr
Dr
Mrs
Miss

but

(Rt) Rev.
Prof.

However, I've noticed that universal usage in the States seems to be periods
after all of this type of abbreviation.

To confuse the picture further, in Britain at least the inclusion of the
'correct' period is coming more and more to be seen as too fussy and obscuring
'real meaning' at the expense of emphasising personal 'scholarliness' in the
worst sense.  Instead, in business communications, the tendency is towards
what's called 'open', ie 'no', punctuation, so:

Prof A N Other
St Agatha's College
OXBRIDGE
OE72 7YT
UK

28 Jun 2004

Dear Prof Other ...

British newspapers also follow this usage and don't, or rarely, put periods
after abbreviations of this type.  What's the difference between American
prescriptive and actual usage and British prescriptive and actual usage?

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 28 19:37:05 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 12:37:05 -0700
Subject: the thin line between error and mere variation II: going nucular
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.123705.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ordinary people, faced with what are for them deviant, "wrong", bits of
language, see nothing but a mistake, period.  They are resistant to the
linguist's idea that there could be a rationale for the "mistake", even
a system to it, or that, in fact, the very same thing could result from
different sources or represent different systems.  (This attitude
presents a tough challenge when we teach beginning linguistics courses
-- not only when we talk about dialects, but also when we talk about
language acquisition.  One of the hardest lessons for many students is
that instead of saying what's wrong, what people "can't" or "won't" do,
they should be describing what people *do*, and making hypotheses about
*why* they do that.)

Geoff Nunberg's "Going Nucular" piece makes a significant advance in
trying to get these ideas out to linguistically unsophisticated people.
  First, it makes an inadvertent/advertent distinction (via the labels
"typo" vs. "thinko"); some people say "nucular" because they've
inadvertently reshaped the pronunciation to fit a common -ular pattern
for learned words (tabular, globular, tubular, vernacular, oracular,
popular, spectacular, oracular, etc., but especially molecular), but
other people say it because they think that (at least in some contexts)
this is the way the word is pronounced.  What Nunberg doesn't stress is
that these days virtually everybody who says "nucular" is in the second
group; though the support of other -ular words helps to make "nucular"
sound right, these people are saying it because other people say it.
(The same point can be made for almost any innovative usage.  Though
hypercorrection surely played some role in the development of
nominative coordinate object pronouns -- the famous "between Kim and I"
-- for some time now people with this usage have it because that's what
they hear, with some frequency, from the relevant people.)

Second, Nunberg doesn't stop there, but speculates some about the
possibility of different systems for the use of "nucular".  In
particular, he cites at least one speaker for whom "nucular" refers
specifically to nukes, with "nuclear" used in expressions like "nuclear
family" and "the nuclear material of the cell".  This is a tremendous
advance, with many analogies in other areas (there are several
different systems of nominative coordinate object pronouns, several
different systems of multiple negation, and so on), but it stops well
short of telling the whole truth.  To do that, the whole discussion has
to be re-framed.

Instead of talking about "nucular" as a mere thinko, we need to treat
it as a variant pronunciation for a word, an alternative to "nuclear".
Just like alternative pronunciations for: radiator, apricot, tomato,
envelope, and many, many other words (with item-specific variants). So,
put aside judgmental attitudes for a while, and ask how people use
these alternative pronunciations.  There are five types of systems:

Type 1: "nuclear" all the way.  (This is my system, for what that's
worth.)

Type 2: free variation, or as close as people come to this.  While you
might be able to discern reasons for one choice or the other in
particular contexts, for the most part the motivations for choosing one
variant over the other are too context-specific, too idiosyncratic, too
much in the moment: inscrutable, in fact.  As far as I can tell, that's
my situation for the /a/ vs. /E/ pronunciations for "envelope", and for
the cursive vs. the printed variants for the capital letter <A>, even
in my first name.

Type 3: variation according to context, say according to formality,
with "nuclear" as the formal, fancy, or scientific pronunciation, and
"nucular" as the informal, homey, everyday pronunciation.  My own
pronunciation of "tomato" is mostly /a/ (thanks to living with an
/a/-speaker for decades and to residence in the U.K. for significant
periods), but more and more I'm inclined to use /e/ when speaking to
Americans.

Type 4: variation according to semantics, as in the nucular-nukes
variety reported by Nunberg.

Type 5: "nucular" all the way; the -ular pronunciation is *the*
pronunciation for the word.  There are, I belief, very many speakers of
this sort.  They understand that other people say the word differently,
just as I understand that some people have /ae/ in "radiator" or
"apricot", instead of my /e/.  That's ok for them, but what I do is ok
for me.

Nunberg suggests that George W. Bush might be a Type 4 speaker, but he
could well be a Type 5 speaker.  Instances of the "nuclear"
pronunciation are so rare in his speech as to preclude the other three
possibilities.

There's a further dimension to all of this, namely the question of
intentionality, or conscious choice.  Nunberg is inclined to see GWB as
having *chosen* the "nucular" variant, to project a particular persona;
in even less neutral phrasing, GWB "puts on" his folksy, Texas-rancher,
hypermasculine persona, with the linguistic accoutrements that go along
with that.

I don't doubt that some people sometimes consciously re-shape their
behavior in certain respects.  But I think that most accommodations to
social varieties and most constructions of personas via behavior
(linguistic and otherwise) happen below the level of consciousness,
usually with very little awareness of what features are being chosen or
why.  (In a sense, this *has* to be true.  There are just too many bits
of behavior for choices among them to be under conscious control.  This
is especially true for bits of linguistic behavior, which have to be
produced in tiny amounts of time, many at the same time.)

Some years ago it was pointed out to me that when I'm trying to be very
precise in talking about linguistics, I use dental rather than alveolar
articulations for consonants.  Eventually, this astute observer (Ann
Daingerfield Zwicky) noted that I'd never done that before I went to
graduate school.  After some reflection on this odd state of affairs,
we realized that I was reproducing the articulations of my graduate
school adviser, Morris Halle, in my Serious Linguist persona.  All
entirely unconsciously, I assure you.

Anecdotes like this could be multiplied endlessly.  There's even some
research on the matter.  As a result, I'd be very very cautious in
attributing someone's ensemble of linguistic features to conscious
choice.  GWB could come to his pronunciation "nucular", his extremely
high use of "-in'" over "-ing", and so on without ever thinking any of
it through (and without consciously rejecting standard or formal
variants).  He could get there just by behaving like the kind of person
he believes himself to be.  Like, in fact, the rest of us.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Mon Jun 28 18:49:26 2004
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:49:26 -0400
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.144926.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:13:03 -0400 Damien Hall
<halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU> writes:

> For me, prescriptively, if I might be so bold, no abbreviation
> should have a
> period after it unless that period actually replaces letters, so
> correct forms
> are:
>
> Ms      [etc]

Perhaps this is just to counterbalance the Brits' compulsive overuse of
commas.

D

I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message


From pds at VISI.COM  Mon Jun 28 21:21:48 2004
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:21:48 +0000
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <20040628181315.59B694C95@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.212148.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quoting Damien Hall <halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>:
> To confuse the picture further, in Britain at least the inclusion of the
> 'correct' period is coming more and more to be seen as too fussy and
> obscuring
> 'real meaning' at the expense of emphasising personal 'scholarliness' in the
> worst sense.  Instead, in business communications, the tendency is towards
> what's called 'open', ie 'no', punctuation, so:

When abbreviations -- and initials -- are part of names and addresses, in the
government and business worlds at least, these items are likely to be funneled
through electronic databases at one point or another, where the use of any
punctuation is strongly discouraged for numerous reasons.  (An exception to
this rule seems to be hyphenated surnames.)  To name a couple:
--Teaching automated processes that "St. Paul" = "St Paul" is less efficient
than just removing the periods from the data.
--Programmers and database designers have appropriated punctuation symbols for
their own purposes.  Allowing these symbols in data risks confusion or worse.
For example, a comma-delimited data file (in which one data element is
separated from the next by a comma) can be rendered unintelligible if the data
itself has commas.

These reasons hold on both sides of the Atlantic.

--Tom Kysilko
  Practical Data Services
  St Paul MN


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 28 21:38:37 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:38:37 -0700
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <1088446383.40e05faf2044b@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.143837.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 28, 2004, at 11:13 AM, Damien Hall wrote:

> Jesse Sheidlower's signoff in his most recent message -
>
> 'Jesse Sheidlower, who thinks that "Ms" should not have a
> period'
>
> - has inspired me to ask about the following.  I think it
> may be a simple transatlantic difference, but I'd be interested to
> know what
> others think.
>
> For me, prescriptively, if I might be so bold, no abbreviation should
> have a
> period after it unless that period actually replaces letters, so
> correct forms
> are:
>
> Ms
> Mr
> Dr
> Mrs
> Miss

whoa!  you put that last one  in just to make sure we were reading,
right?  "Miss" doesn't need a period, for anybody.

otherwise, the system you report is standard formal british (and
french: "Mlle", "Mme", but "M.").  standard formal american uses a
period if letters are left out (except for initialisms, acronyms,
clippings pronounced in short form, etc.).

in any case, Ms. Magazine seems to like its period.  but of course it's
american.

maybe jesse has been hanging out with those oxford folks too long...

(and, yes, as tom kysilko points out, in lots of modern contexts *all*
punctuation marks, including apostrophes as well as periods, but
especially periods. are omitted.)

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Jun 29 03:18:17 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:18:17 -0400
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.231817.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Jesse did not clarify why he thinks that "Ms" should not have a period.  My initial thought was that he meant that actual words, such as Ms and Mrs (neither of which is an abbreviation for anything), should not have periods.

        Perhaps we were just in need of another prescriptive rule, but I really don't see why there should be a period for abbreviations like Rev., where the retained letters are at the beginning of the word, but not for abbreviations like St. (when short for Saint), where the retained letters come from both the beginning and the end of the word.  In the context of business organizations, I suppose we could keep Co. and Inc. but would have to go with Ltd as the abbreviation for Limited.  We could keep St. for Street, but Blvd would abbreviate Boulevard.  Is this really a good approach?

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Damien Hall
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 2:13 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Periods after abbreviations


Jesse Sheidlower's signoff in his most recent message -

'Jesse Sheidlower, who thinks that "Ms" should not have a
period'

- has inspired me to ask about the following.  I think it
may be a simple transatlantic difference, but I'd be interested to know what
others think.

For me, prescriptively, if I might be so bold, no abbreviation should have a
period after it unless that period actually replaces letters, so correct forms
are:

Ms
Mr
Dr
Mrs
Miss

but

(Rt) Rev.
Prof.

However, I've noticed that universal usage in the States seems to be periods
after all of this type of abbreviation.

To confuse the picture further, in Britain at least the inclusion of the
'correct' period is coming more and more to be seen as too fussy and obscuring
'real meaning' at the expense of emphasising personal 'scholarliness' in the
worst sense.  Instead, in business communications, the tendency is towards
what's called 'open', ie 'no', punctuation, so:

Prof A N Other
St Agatha's College
OXBRIDGE
OE72 7YT
UK

28 Jun 2004

Dear Prof Other ...

British newspapers also follow this usage and don't, or rarely, put periods
after abbreviations of this type.  What's the difference between American
prescriptive and actual usage and British prescriptive and actual usage?

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Jun 29 03:21:09 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:21:09 -0400
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.232109.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> writes:
>except for initialisms,

What about a.m. and p.m.; s.s.e. [for south-southeast]; T.C. [for
Teacher's College]; T.Q.C. [for total quality control]; and U.A.W. [for
United Automobile Workers]; and U.F.C.T. [for United Federation of College
Teachers].  These examples were taken from a dictionary of abbreviations
which was very sensitive to periods in the evidence it collected prior to
being written.

Regards,
David

Banhart at highlands.com


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Jun 29 03:24:31 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:24:31 -0400
Subject: Absolute "not so much" = "not really"
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.232431.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Mad About You predated Friends, which didn't start until 1994.  My bet is that Paul Reiser did not originate "not so much" but did popularize it.  Friends, and perhaps other sitcoms, then starting using the same comic phrase.

        Of course, everyone was saying "not so much" long before Reiser said it in 1992.  What Reiser changed was to make it a humorous stand-along phrase, instead of an explicit comparison.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Carolina Jimenez-Marcos
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 6:54 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Absolute "not so much" = "not really"


This "not so much" is not so much "not really" as it is "no" or "not at
all". Did the ever-original "Friends" writers popularize a certain rhythm
to it? Probably. Were they the first to use it that way? Not so much.
"Friends" puts this phrase in the mouth of at least four of the characters
and in many episodes. It became predictable comedic patter, and shows up in
the speech and webspeech of my generation and younger much more often since
the later "Friends" years. Not a bad argument for the TV phenomenon.

Below is a use of the "not so much" as "no" in a headline that pre-dates
the show. Notice that it doesn't have a question or ellipse and then short
"not so much" that is typical today. (You could still argue that there is
an understood "not so much the money [as a matter of pride]".)

HEADLINE: How many kids did Elvis have? Nine --- or one? It's not so much
the money, although 'The King' left $200 million --there's prestige at
stake among the claimants to the Presley name
The Toronto Star
May 17, 1987


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 29 04:05:38 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:05:38 -0700
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e01b42d6e3b9aca0021739d8a.1b42da2@chain.highlands.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.210538.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 28, 2004, at 8:21 PM, Barnhart wrote:

> American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> writes:
>> except for initialisms,
>
> What about a.m. and p.m.; s.s.e. [for south-southeast]; T.C. [for
> Teacher's College]; T.Q.C. [for total quality control]; and U.A.W. [for
> United Automobile Workers]; and U.F.C.T. [for United Federation of
> College
> Teachers].  These examples were taken from a dictionary of
> abbreviations
> which was very sensitive to periods in the evidence it collected prior
> to
> being written.

eek.  what i wrote here was a cut-down version of a discussion for
soc.motss (which was itself only an approximation to the full
complexity of actual practice).  it's a periodic jungle out there.
some people insist on "M.I.T.", some on "MIT", while almost everyone
does the University of California branches without periods: "UCLA",
"UCSC", "UCSB", and so on.  and on and on.

modern practice on initialisms tends more and more towards no periods.
that doesn't mean there can't be the occasional periodic island.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT  Tue Jun 29 10:49:07 2004
From: mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT (Amorelli)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:49:07 +0200
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.124907.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:18 AM
Subject: Re: Periods after abbreviations




>         Jesse did not clarify why he thinks that "Ms" should not have a
period.  My initial thought was that he meant that actual words, such as Ms
and Mrs (neither of which is an abbreviation for anything), should not have
periods.
>
I was taught that Mrs. was the abbreviation for 'Mistress' and Mr. for
'Master', tho' in British usage this latter full form is still used to
indicate an under-18 male recipient of the communication which, on the face
of it might invalidate the abbreviated form for over-18 males.
Maria Immacolata Amorelli


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 29 12:57:01 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:57:01 -0400
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F23B6226@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.085701.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 11:18:17PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>
>         Jesse did not clarify why he thinks that "Ms" should
> not have a period.  My initial thought was that he meant
> that actual words, such as Ms and Mrs (neither of which is
> an abbreviation for anything), should not have periods.

"Mrs" isn't an abbreviation? Could have fooled me. I trusted
my trusty OED when it told me that it's shortened from
"mistress".

"Ms" on the other hand really isn't an abbreviation, and this,
rather than any sense of British lack-of-periodness, is the
secondary reason why I don't use a period after it.

The main reason is, of course, pretension.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Tue Jun 29 13:40:15 2004
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:40:15 -0500
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.084015.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

:
Jesse did not clarify why he thinks that "Ms" should
not have a period.

I thought it was a humorous comment on militant feminism,  it never occurred
to me that it was meant to be serious.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 29 15:39:06 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:39:06 -0700
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <017501c45dde$9c6f9de0$2ce186d8@paulz>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.083906.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 29, 2004, at 6:40 AM, paulzjoh wrote:

> :
> Jesse did not clarify why he thinks that "Ms" should
> not have a period.
>
> I thought it was a humorous comment on militant feminism,  it never
> occurred
> to me that it was meant to be serious.

what would having a period, or not, have to do with militant feminism?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 29 14:29:25 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:29:25 -0400
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.102925.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold Zwicky said:

=========================

> Miss

whoa!  you put that last one  in just to make sure we were reading,
right?  "Miss" doesn't need a period, for anybody.

=========================

I'm glad to see that.  I didn't think so - it looks unbearably prissy to me -
but I have seen it in early-twentieth-century British texts.  Presumably it was
because I think the word was originally an abbreviation of 'Mistress' and the
writers thought that that should be indicated by putting a period in.  Never
mind that the period wouldn't have replaced any letters because there are none
after the double <s>.  I wouldn't have argued that 'Miss.' is current usage for
anyone but it's good to see it confirmed.  And thanks for the summary of
standard formal American usage.

John Baker remarked that neither 'Ms' nor 'Mrs' was an abbreviation for
anything.  I'd always thought that 'Mrs' was an abbreviation for 'Mistress';  a
strange case because 'Miss' is as well, but there you go.  Victorian English
seems to have used the phrase 'mistress of the house' quite commonly to mean
the lady at the top of it, so that would be the 'Mrs', not the 'Miss'.

I think that John's comments about the unwieldiness of a period in 'Rev.' but
not in 'St', in 'Co.' but not in 'Ltd', are spot-on;  that's presumably the
main reason why the so-called 'open punctuation' system has evolved, in Britain
at least.  (By the way, though, you can make it a little easier by saying that
'St' = 'Street' should never have a period because the <t> could come from the
end of the word - but that's a get-out, it seems to me.)

But I must defend my country against Duane Campbell's accusation of 'compulsive
overuse of commas'!  Perhaps it's due to an 'open punctuation' reflex gained
when I worked in an office writing letters, but many Americans who receive
e-mails from me (the type that begin 'Dear So-and-so') can be relied upon to
comment regularly on the fact that I never have a comma after the salutation,
whereas they always would.  It's also an absolute rule of British prescriptive
grammar (though clearly 'prescriptive' may be a four-letter word on this
listserv - perhaps we should all add it to our lists of words to be filtered out
by spam filters, replacing 'fuck' in that list) that, in lists, the penultimate
item never has a comma after it if there is also an 'and', whereas I note that
in America all items in such lists are followed by commas.  In fact, I can
probably make a stronger statement that (I was always taught that) 'and' should
never have a comma before it except in certain special circumstances where
clarity would be lost without a comma.  Common examples of such circumstances
are lists where the items are each several words long and need to be securely
delimited, and lists where the items themselves contain 'and' (obviously,
bibliographies commonly do).

Finally, David Banhart's examples of initialisms with periods in them all strike
me as things that would never be written with periods in British English, so
it's interesting that there's apparently variation across time in American
usage (cf Arnold's comment that initialisms often do not include periods).
David, when was the dictionary compiled?

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 29 16:53:06 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:53:06 -0700
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <20040629125701.GB23004@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.095306.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 29, 2004, at 5:57 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 11:18:17PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>>
>>         Jesse did not clarify why he thinks that "Ms" should
>> not have a period.  My initial thought was that he meant
>> that actual words, such as Ms and Mrs (neither of which is
>> an abbreviation for anything), should not have periods.
>
> "Mrs" isn't an abbreviation? Could have fooled me. I trusted
> my trusty OED when it told me that it's shortened from
> "mistress".

historically, yes.  but now it's a short spelling that is
conventionally (and, to some degree, arbitrarily) associated with the
pronunciation /mIsIz/, which is sometimes spelled out as <missus>.

a core, straightforward instance of an abbreviation is a short spelling
which can be converted to a fully spelled word by the addition of
letters and which gets its pronunciation from the pronunciation of the
longer spelling and its meaning from the meaning of the word with the
longer spelling.  <Prof.>, <Rte.>, and <fn.> are instances.

but the world of spelling is full of all sorts of other phenomena which
deviate in various degrees from the core instances.  <Mrs.>, pronounced
/mIsIz/, is one of them.  <fnn.>, pronounced /fUtnots/, is another.
<lb.>, pronounced /pawnd/,  is still another.  <MemChu>, pronounced
/mEm cu/, is yet another.  <IBM>, pronounced /ay bi Em/, is yet
another.  all the way up to <&>, pronounced /aend/.  there are many
different types of short spellings, and there is no natural way to
carve out categories other than the individual types (among them the
core type) or the whole set of short spellings.  you can, if you want,
reserve "abbreviation" as a technical term for the core type (in which
case, neither <Mrs.> nor <Ms.> is an abbreviation), or you can reserve
it as a technical term for short spellings as a whole (in which case,
both are abbreviations).  or you can give a disjunctive list of types
for which you will reserve it as a technical term (perhaps on the
grounds of historical derivation, though that would pick up <Miss> as
well as <Mrs.>, or on the grounds of usage in everyday language),
though then your list, as a definition of a *technical term*, is no
more defensible than any random list someone else might draw up.

the problem is that the question "is X an abbreviation?" doesn't make
sense unless you're clear about what counts as an abbreviation.  and
*that* question has two clear and defensible answers, a very narrow one
and a very broad one, plus any number of ad hoc answers; the answer you
give to the second question determines the answer to the first.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 29 18:21:04 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:21:04 -0700
Subject: slang (was Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay])
In-Reply-To: <20040628001740.GA26793@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.112104.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 27, 2004, at 5:17 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> Arnold,
> I guess the question here is "Is Slang a Word for Linguists?" a
> question asked and perhaps answered in an American Speech article with
> that title, by Bethany Dumas and Jonathan Lighter some years ago.

which i somehow missed.  and the 1978 AmSp is missing from my library;
1977, yes, 1979, yes, but 1978, no.  so i guess it's time for a trip to
the library.

my complaint was not really that a technical usage of "slang"
*couldn't* be carved out, just that  a lot of discussion of what is or
is not slang (even among linguists) seems not be to grounded in such a
technical usage, but runs with something like the everyday usage.

> ..."Slang"... is sort of on its own. I can't publish a dictionary
> called _The Historical Dictionary of American Words and Phrases That
> Are Informal, Chiefly Spoken, Serving as a Group Marker esp. for a
> Marginalized Group, and Often Ephemeral_. It's too useful to jettison.

well, yes, there's a problem.  the solution is either to use "slang" as
a technical term, but explain very carefully what it embraces, or to
adopt some fresh label.  the first solution, the one almost everyone
adopts, will mislead some people, who will complain that slang words X,
Y, and Z are not in dictionary but should be (even though they're
excluded by your definition).  the second solution has the minus of
strangeness, opacity.  either solution will work if you're addressing
an audience of specialists -- mathematics get away with both major
wrenchings of ordinary vocabulary and flagrant innovations, but that's
because they're usually addressing other mathematicians, or people who
propose to learn some mathematics -- but both are troublesome when the
audience has lots of nonspecialists in it.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 29 18:56:34 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:56:34 -0400
Subject: nucular
In-Reply-To: <20040629040422.A269122861@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.145634.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold writes (with normative capitalization):

        >>>
Nunberg suggests that George W. Bush might be a Type 4 speaker, but he
could well be a Type 5 speaker.  Instances of the "nuclear"
pronunciation are so rare in his speech as to preclude the other three
possibilities.
        <<<

I suggest editing that second sentence as follows:

Instances of the "nuclear" pronunciation are so rare in his PUBLISHED speech
as to preclude ASSIGNING HIM TO ANY OF the other three possibilities.

(We don't know what he says off-camera, off-recorder, etc.)

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT  Tue Jun 29 20:49:53 2004
From: mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT (Amorelli)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:49:53 +0200
Subject: slang (was Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay])
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.224953.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> well, yes, there's a problem.  the solution is either to use "slang" as
> a technical term, but explain very carefully what it embraces, or to
> adopt some fresh label.  the first solution, the one almost everyone
> adopts, will mislead some people, who will complain that slang words X,
> Y, and Z are not in dictionary but should be (even though they're
> excluded by your definition).  the second solution has the minus of
> strangeness, opacity.  either solution will work if you're addressing
> an audience of specialists -- mathematics get away with both major
> wrenchings of ordinary vocabulary and flagrant innovations, but that's
> because they're usually addressing other mathematicians, or people who
> propose to learn some mathematics -- but both are troublesome when the
> audience has lots of nonspecialists in it.
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

Or use something like the 'Broad' definition (used for Australian speech)
when indicating usage outside of the technical which would have the
advantage of indicating the lower register, and keeping 'jargon' to indicate
in-house usage? We'd have to use it in fixed collocations tho': Cockney
Rhyming Broad just doesn't have the same ring to it.
Maria Immacolata Amorelli


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun 29 21:07:19 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:07:19 -0700
Subject: for the ADS (fwd)
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.140719.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter Richardson is taking some time off from the list, but wanted to share
the following.

Peter McGraw

---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Date: Thursday, June 24, 2004 8:50 AM -0700
From: Peter Richardson <prichard at linfield.edu>
To: Peter McGraw <pmcgraw at linfield.edu>
Subject: for the ADS

Peter, just in case my machine won't let me send this to the ADS, you
might wait for a day and then send it on if you don't get it through their
channels. It comes from my vigilant cousin in Minnesota.

Hello all -

It seems I didn't anticipate some of your concerns -
For accounts that need to be reactivated ("unDisusered"), password
resets and login problems, printer problems and other troubleshooting,
please continue to send requests to southern.operators at csu.mnscu.edu or
call the regional data center operators at 507-389-6653.  The only
change is how the security forms are handled.  Other issues are handled
as before.

Bill S.


---------- End Forwarded Message ----------



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 29 22:46:13 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:46:13 -0700
Subject: Fwd: slang (was Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay])
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.154613.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Arnold M. Zwicky <zwicky at csli.stanford.edu>
> Date: June 29, 2004 3:18:52 PM PDT
> To: Grant Barrett <grant.barrett at oup.com>
> Subject: Re: slang (was Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay])
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2004, at 11:42 AM, Grant Barrett wrote:
>
>> FYI, as an ADS member you have access to the journal online,
>> including back issues to the beginning...
>
> thanks to grant, and to jesse for the .pdf.  (bethany, you can save
> the postage.)
>
> arnold
>


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun 30 00:11:03 2004
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:11:03 -0400
Subject: Fwd: slang (was Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay])
In-Reply-To: <1F4D9CFA-CA1E-11D8-B850-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.201103.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:

>> thanks to grant, and to jesse for the .pdf.  (bethany, you can save
>> the postage.)

Too late. I have already autographed it and written the love note. The
cover has faded a bit with time, but all the contents are intact.

(Maybe you will be able to sell it on ebay.)

Bethany


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Wed Jun 30 01:45:07 2004
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:45:07 -0500
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.204507.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Possibly the missing period would indicate that one's feminism was
insufficiently militant?
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>

what would having a period, or not, have to do with militant feminism?


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 30 02:08:13 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:08:13 -0700
Subject: slang (was Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay])
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0406292009250.9670@larry.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.190813.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 29, 2004, at 5:11 PM, you wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>
>>> thanks to grant, and to jesse for the .pdf.  (bethany, you can save
>>> the postage.)
>
> Too late. I have already autographed it and written the love note. The
> cover has faded a bit with time, but all the contents are intact.
>
> (Maybe you will be able to sell it on ebay.)

nonsense.  i will treasure it.

arnold


From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM  Wed Jun 30 02:47:58 2004
From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:47:58 -0400
Subject: "sleep the sleep of the just"
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.224758.0400.ABARAGONA@SPRYNET.COM>

Does anyone know the origin of the phrase "sleep the sleep of the just"?  It's not biblical or Shakespearean, it's not in Barlett's or The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations or several other dictionaries of quotations and phrases that I've checked.  "Ecclesiastes" says "the sleep of the labouring man is sweet," but that's as close as I can find to the sentiment, and it's not very close to the wording.

Alan Baragona


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun 30 02:55:58 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:55:58 -0400
Subject: the thin line between error and mere variation II
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.225558.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's a case that may not be strictly germane to this discussion, but
others may find it interesting, regardless.

There are people who, in their unmonitored speech, always mispronounce a
given (class of) word. However, when this mispronunciation is called to
their attention, they deny that said mispronunciation is part of their
idiolect and "demonstrate" this by giving the word in question its
standard pronunciation. Then they go right back to their idiosyncratic
pronunciation. E.g.

A. I'm goin' up the skreek. You want anything?
B. Do you know that you always say "skreek" instead of "street"?
A. (Annoyed) What the hell are you talkin' about? I don't say "skreek"!
I say "street"!
B. Oh. Okay. My bad.
A. Like I said, I'm goin' up the skreek. You want anything?

-Wilson  Gray


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Jun 30 03:44:33 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:44:33 -0400
Subject: "sleep the sleep of the just"
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.234433.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The New American Bible on-line includes the following verse (1 Samuel 2:8):

He raises the needy from the dust;
from the ash heap he lifts up the poor,
To seat them with nobles
and make a glorious throne their heritage.
He gives to the vower his vow,
and blesses the sleep of the just.
For the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S,
and he has set the world upon them.

Other Bibles don't include the phrase in question AFAIK.

According to various Web sites, the whole expression is attributed to
Racine (ca. 1693):

"Elle s'endormit du sommeil des justes"

(_Abrege de l'histoire de Port Royal_ IV:517, Mesnard ed.).

In English literature, this expression has meant two things, apparently:
(1) sleep well, (2) be dead [cf. "rest in peace", I guess].

-- Doug Wilson


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 30 03:51:23 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:51:23 -0700
Subject: Dogs of Language
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.205123.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

i have briefly fallen into a public discussion of talking dogs and
similar marvels.  i didn't subject y'all to this stuff, but if you're
interested, check out Dogs of Language, and More Dogs of Language, at
   http://www.languagelog.com

arnold


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Jun 30 03:51:56 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:51:56 -0400
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.235156.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Well, my OED says:  "The contracted pronunciation, which in other applications of the word has never been more than a vulgarism (see Missis), became, for the prefixed title, first a permitted colloquial license, and ultimately the only allowable pronunciation.  When this stage was reached, Mrs. (with the contracted pronunciation) became a distinct word from Mistress."

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Jesse Sheidlower
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 8:57 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Periods after abbreviations


"Mrs" isn't an abbreviation? Could have fooled me. I trusted
my trusty OED when it told me that it's shortened from
"mistress".


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Jun 30 05:12:54 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:12:54 -0500
Subject: unobtanium
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.001254.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Michael Quinion did a column on unobtanium and handwavium.

http://www.quinion.com/words/weirdwords/ww-uno1.htm

I recently ran across baloneyum, and wishalloy.


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Wed Jun 30 10:29:45 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:29:45 +0100
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <E1Bf2PI-0007T7-00@rinka.central.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.112945.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Monday, June 28, 2004 2:49 pm -0400 Duane Campbell <dcamp911 at JUNO.COM>
wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:13:03 -0400 Damien Hall
> <halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU> writes:
>
>> For me, prescriptively, if I might be so bold, no abbreviation
>> should have a
>> period after it unless that period actually replaces letters, so
>> correct forms
>> are:
>>
>> Ms      [etc]
>
> Perhaps this is just to counterbalance the Brits' compulsive overuse of
> commas.

????  In my experience, Brits hardly use commas at all!!  Unlike Americans,
they don't use them before 'and' in lists, and, again unlike Americans,
they tend not to use them in pre-sentential adjuncts.  So British:

In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

And (at least my!) American style:

In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

I have a horrible time parsing my students' essays for this reason, but
I've learnt not to correct them on this point.  Like American students,
though, they love to put commas between long subjects and verbs (the 'where
you pause' rule of comma-putting), which I do correct mercilessly.

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Wed Jun 30 11:40:42 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:40:42 -0400
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.074042.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Damien Hall halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU

<snip>

: ...It's also an absolute rule of British
: prescriptive grammar (though clearly 'prescriptive' may be a four-letter
: word on this listserv - perhaps we should all add it to our lists of
: words to be filtered out by spam filters, replacing 'fuck' in that list)
: that, in lists, the penultimate item never has a comma after it if there
: is also an 'and', whereas I note that in America all items in such lists
: are followed by commas...

Not true--i was explicitly taught (in the US), and have seen in usage
manuals, that the commas in such circumstances are optional, and it doesn't
matter which you use as long as you're consistent (though the Chicago Manual
prefers inclusion of the comma, with the stated reason being to avoid the
risk of ambiguity).

<snip>

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Wed Jun 30 11:46:28 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:46:28 -0400
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 28 Jun 2004 to 29 Jun 2004 (#2004-182)
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.074628.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>

<snip>

: "Ms" on the other hand really isn't an abbreviation, and this,
: rather than any sense of British lack-of-periodness, is the
: secondary reason why I don't use a period after it.

Actually, "Ms" may not be an abbreviation for all (or at least most) of us
on this list, but i suggest that for many (if not most) real people, "Ms" is
an abbreviation for "Miss".

In fact, i know that that's what i thought it was until i was a few years
into grad school, even!

(I blame phonology--in my variety, word-final [z] just doesn't happen. This
made hearing the classic example of the plural marker changing in cases like
cat[s] vs. cad[z] a very bizarre experience, since it took me a long time to
even be able to *hear* the difference.)

Actually, as IIRC Dennis Preston pointed out at the ADS meeting in January
(in the Q&A session after Janet Fuller's presentation), for a lot of
speakers, "Mrs"/"Ms"/"Miss" are all homophonous--and, taking it further, are
possibly even processed as the same word.

<snip excellent last line>

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Wed Jun 30 11:59:40 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:59:40 +0100
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 28 Jun 2004 to 29 Jun 2004 (#2004-182)
In-Reply-To: <E1BfdXz-000569-00@rinka.central.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.125940.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Wednesday, June 30, 2004 7:46 am -0400 David Bowie <db.list at PMPKN.NET>
wrote:

> Actually, "Ms" may not be an abbreviation for all (or at least most) of us
> on this list, but i suggest that for many (if not most) real people, "Ms"
> is an abbreviation for "Miss".
>
> In fact, i know that that's what i thought it was until i was a few years
> into grad school, even!


Part of the reason that some people think it's an abbreviation is that in
some dialects 'miss' sounds like 'miz'.  I once co-taught a course in
Illinois with someone who was called Ms X (not so much protecting the
innocent as that I can't remember her name).  She took a half week off, and
reappeared with a wedding ring.  After this, all of the students started
putting "Mrs X" on their essays.  She asked why, figuring (a) Ms is
marital-status-neutral, and (b) if they were going to call her Mrs
something, wouldn't they need to know her husband's surname?  This was a
foundation course, and the students were either from inner cities (mostly
African American) or very rural areas--both groups pronounced 'miss' as
'miz' and just thought that Ms was abbreviated Miss.  They were quite
surprised to learn otherwise.

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Jun 30 13:59:57 2004
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:59:57 -0500
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <00bf01c45e97$e2a4f2b0$f0fbaa84@BOWIE>
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.085957.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>: ...It's also an absolute rule of British
>: prescriptive grammar (though clearly 'prescriptive' may be a four-letter
>: word on this listserv - perhaps we should all add it to our lists of
>: words to be filtered out by spam filters, replacing 'fuck' in that list)
>: that, in lists, the penultimate item never has a comma after it if there
>: is also an 'and', whereas I note that in America all items in such lists
>: are followed by commas...
>
>Not true--i was explicitly taught (in the US), and have seen in usage
>manuals, that the commas in such circumstances are optional, and it doesn't
>matter which you use as long as you're consistent (though the Chicago Manual
>prefers inclusion of the comma, with the stated reason being to avoid the
>risk of ambiguity).
>
><snip>
>
>David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx


Well, that's new. I taught composition in the early 80s (in
Wisconsin) and the rule for commas was 0 or 2 between subject and
verb. My understanding was that in England, a single comma was
acceptable. But when I get books published in england with only one
comma, I have to put the other in, or it doesn't make sense!

Barbara


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun 30 14:29:29 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:29:29 -0400
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.102929.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

Slightly off topic but I always refer to another historical incident in the
poem. My version goes as follows:

In fourteen hundred and ninety two
Ferdinand and Isabella expelled the Jew.

You can look it up.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynne Murphy" <M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 6:29 AM
Subject: Re: Periods after abbreviations


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Lynne Murphy <M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK>
> Subject:      Re: Periods after abbreviations
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> --On Monday, June 28, 2004 2:49 pm -0400 Duane Campbell
<dcamp911 at JUNO.COM>
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:13:03 -0400 Damien Hall
> > <halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU> writes:
> >
> >> For me, prescriptively, if I might be so bold, no abbreviation
> >> should have a
> >> period after it unless that period actually replaces letters, so
> >> correct forms
> >> are:
> >>
> >> Ms      [etc]
> >
> > Perhaps this is just to counterbalance the Brits' compulsive overuse of
> > commas.
>
> ????  In my experience, Brits hardly use commas at all!!  Unlike
Americans,
> they don't use them before 'and' in lists, and, again unlike Americans,
> they tend not to use them in pre-sentential adjuncts.  So British:
>
> In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue.
>
> And (at least my!) American style:
>
> In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue.
>
> I have a horrible time parsing my students' essays for this reason, but
> I've learnt not to correct them on this point.  Like American students,
> though, they love to put commas between long subjects and verbs (the
'where
> you pause' rule of comma-putting), which I do correct mercilessly.
>
> Lynne
>
> Dr M Lynne Murphy
> Lecturer in Linguistics
>
> Department of Linguistics and English Language
> Arts B133
> University of Sussex
> Falmer
> Brighton BN1 9QN
> >From UK:  (01273) 678844
> Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 30 15:57:10 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:57:10 -0700
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 28 Jun 2004 to 29 Jun 2004 (#2004-182)
In-Reply-To: <00c001c45e97$e2b59480$f0fbaa84@BOWIE>
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.085710.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 30, 2004, at 4:46 AM, David Bowie wrote:

> ...Actually, "Ms" may not be an abbreviation for all (or at least
> most) of us
> on this list, but i suggest that for many (if not most) real people,
> "Ms" is
> an abbreviation for "Miss".
>
> In fact, i know that that's what i thought it was until i was a few
> years
> into grad school, even!
>
> (I blame phonology--in my variety, word-final [z] just doesn't happen.
> This
> made hearing the classic example of the plural marker changing in
> cases like
> cat[s] vs. cad[z] a very bizarre experience, since it took me a long
> time to
> even be able to *hear* the difference.)
>
> Actually, as IIRC Dennis Preston pointed out at the ADS meeting in
> January
> (in the Q&A session after Janet Fuller's presentation), for a lot of
> speakers, "Mrs"/"Ms"/"Miss" are all homophonous--and, taking it
> further, are
> possibly even processed as the same word.

putting aside the questions of whether it's an abbreviation and whether
you use a period, there are two issues here about "Ms.": how's it
pronounced? and how's it used?

for a lot of americans, there's a three-way distinction in
pronunciation: Mrs. [mIsIz] (or [mIs at z], where @ represents schwa), Ms.
[mIz] (or [m+z], where + represents barred i, as in some people's
pronunciation of the adverb "just"), Miss [mIs].  but for a variety of
reasons, Mrs. or Miss or both fall together with Ms. for some speakers
(as reported above).  australian speakers often report [@] or [^] for
Ms.; my 1981 Macquarie gives only [@], but a 2001 edition lists [@] and
[I].

as for usage, here's a posting i sent to soc.motss not long ago on this
question:
----------
From: zwicky at Turing.Stanford.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Ms. (was Re: Art Songs On The Rise?)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:32:42 +0000 (UTC)

in article <cauijg$p97$1 at ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>, moira de swardt
<firstnameds at wol.co.za> refers to a cat:

> "maf&dog, inc. " <m at f.chezdog> wrote:

>> Does Ms. Kitty have a blanket for the basket?

> Miss.  Not Ms.  She's never going to be allowed to get from Miss to
> Ms.  I'm having her snipped before she becomes interesting to the boy
> cats.

there's no telling how language will change...

the title "Ms." achieved its widespread use as an exact parallel to
"Mr." -- a title that doesn't mark marital status.  in its most common
uses, it replaces both the marked terms, "Miss" and "Mrs.", although
most style sheets recommend the use of a marked term for a person who
prefers one of them (as women who have adopted their husband's family
name often do).

this last fact -- the use of "Mrs." for certain married women -- in
combination with a general feeling that "Miss" is old-fashioned, has
led to a not uncommon (but still, i think, minority) usage in which
"Ms." serves merely as a modern replacement for "Miss".  in this usage,
"Ms." at least implicates, if not actually entails, unmarried status.

moira seems to have a usage that is exactly the opposite of this: "Ms."
as a modern substitute for "Mrs.", implicating, if not actually
entailing, *married* status.  i can see how this might happen: serious
feminists advocated the title "Ms." and were responsible for its
widespread use, so that the title became associated with mature,
independent women of some gravitas.  then we have "Ms." (vs. "Miss") as
a marker of adulthood.  a marker of adulthood is always open to
shifting -- in the linguistics trade, we call this "metonymy" -- to
mark characteristics *associated with* adulthood: marriage and
parenthood, in particular.  (we have often remarked in these parts on
the extent to which our culture views single and/or childless people --
including most l&g folk -- as immature.)

since moira's posting is about a cat, a creature for which the notion
of "marriage" is necessarily metaphorical, i'm not entirely sure
whether her use of "Ms." covers married status, parenthood, or even
just sexual maturity (potential parenthood).  the question is how she
uses the title with reference to human beings.  i'm guessing that it
specifically marks married status.

[in a later posting, moira clarifies her usage:

It was related to the question of sexual maturity / parenthood.

With humans I tend to refer to children as "Miss", consistent with the
cat use, and all adult women of unknown preference as Ms. I tend to
refer to male children as "Master" and men as "Mister".

In my own life I use the title "Reverend" and otherwise prefer the
title "Ms."  I cope with "Miss".  I am divorced and use my maiden name.
  Of course, I suffer under the additional complication that "Swart" is
a common surname in South Africa, so "Miss de Swardt" has a strong
tendency to be interpreted as "Mr Swart", a particular problem when I
worked in a law office and people assumed that my female voice
obviously belonged to Mr Swart's secretary.]

[back to AMZ:]

if so, we have the maximally confused state, in which "Ms." is neutral
(for most people) with respect to marital status, marks (for a
significant number of others) specifically unmarried status, and marks
(for at least some others) specifically married status.  it's almost as
bad as the single-earring-for-men thing: is it a signifier of gayness
or just coolness or one or the other depending on which ear it's in,
and if its significance depends on the ear, which ear is which?  since
all logically possible systems seem to have arisen naturally, the
single earring no longer signifies much of anything.  i think it would
be a great shame if "Ms." went down this path to meaninglessness.

zotling, father of ms. elizabeth zwicky...
----------


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun 30 16:10:26 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:10:26 -0400
Subject: periods, capitilization, etc.
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.121026.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

as arnold continually reminds us in his uploads the lack of the use of
capital letters does not prevent us from understanding anything he writes

i am an anthropologist and not a linguist and as far as i am concerned the
use or non use of commas caps periods etc  tells us more about the
socio-cultural formations from which we came than they do about almost
anything else

anyone out there want to tell me no jokes please that they are not able to
understand anything I have written in this upload

page stephens

ps it is difficult to write something like this message since my spell
checker keeps telling me that caps should be inserted


From LJT777 at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 30 16:17:06 2004
From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:17:06 EDT
Subject: Ms.
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.121706.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My understanding has always been that Ms. is an abbreviation for Mistress and
was meant to replace Miss and Mrs. because a woman's title should be
independent of her relationship to a man through marriage. This put Ms. on a par with
Mr., both being abbreviations of titles that indicate only gender and not
marital status.  Ms. would, therefore, take a period.


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Jun 30 16:40:29 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:40:29 -0400
Subject: Ms. [off topic]
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.124029.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To LJT777 at aol.com and others,

Wouldn't it be nice if people with obscure e-mail addresses could sign
their name so we know whom we are addressing or about whom we are
talking/writing?

Flames may be sent to the address below:

barnhart at highlands.com

Respectfully submitted,

David K. Barnhart


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun 30 18:18:18 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:18:18 -0400
Subject: Ms. [off topic]
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.141818.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

David,

For better or for worse everybody knows your and my name. I have never even
thought of disguising my name but thought better of it.

If I make an ass of myself then so be it but I will make an ass of myself
above my signature. It won't be the first time nor the last time that I have
made an ass of myself.

This brings up two topics for discussion on this list:. The first is why
anyone would choose to use a pseudonym on this list.

The second is there any pattern to the use of pseudonyms online and do the
people who use them use different pseudonyms on other lists?

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Barnhart" <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: Ms. [off topic]


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Ms. [off topic]
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> To LJT777 at aol.com and others,
>
> Wouldn't it be nice if people with obscure e-mail addresses could sign
> their name so we know whom we are addressing or about whom we are
> talking/writing?
>
> Flames may be sent to the address below:
>
> barnhart at highlands.com
>
> Respectfully submitted,
>
> David K. Barnhart


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Jun  1 00:14:07 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 20:14:07 -0400
Subject: pax
In-Reply-To: <a0521060bbce0ad52e6ce@[130.102.202.113]>
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.201407.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Can anyone tell me if "pax" = passengers is known and used in the US?
>How widely used and known? It's airline reservation-speak, but I am
>intrigued at a report that it was common in WW2, and migrated to
>civil aviation with the people who left the airforces after 1945.
>
>It is also a verb among airline crew: to pax to New York is to travel
>as a passenger, in order to pick up a flight that one is to pilot to
>another destination.

It isn't familiar to me. However, the Web has many examples of "pax" =
"passenger[s]", some from the US. Not all from the travel business: I see
for example "5 pax auto" = "5-passenger auto", "car/pax ferry" = "car and
passenger ferry", "cargo, pax" = "cargo and passengers" (this from the
USAF). I Googled <<pax passengers>>.

-- Doug Wilson


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Tue Jun  1 01:23:35 2004
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 20:23:35 -0500
Subject: pax
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.202335.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's current usage in the US military, both for passengers on a vessel
(usually an aircraft) and those just arrived from that status.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Prof. R. Sussex" <sussex at UQ.EDU.AU>


Can anyone tell me if "pax" = passengers is known and used in the US?


From Nfburr at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  1 02:07:50 2004
From: Nfburr at AOL.COM (Nell Burr)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:07:50 EDT
Subject: "all stove up"
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.220750.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My partner and I have been trying to track down the etymology of the
expression "all stove up" which her father used to describe someone who's very hurt,
as in "he's all stove up."  Her father was born on the stake plains of east
Texas and his father took part in some of the last great cross-country cattle
drives as a cowboy for one of the large ranches, possibly the King Ranch.  Our
best guess is that the expression was born when a cowboy was so injured he
couldn't do any kind of work and had to just rest by the camp stove until he was
hopefully better.  It's logical, I suppose, but is it right?

Also, if anyone can suggest a good book on the derivation of other western
phrases, it would be much appreciated.

Thank you,

Nell


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun  1 02:24:35 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:24:35 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <200405311213.1buSej6Uq3NZFmQ0@tanager>
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.222435.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On May 31, 2004, at 3:13 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On May 31, 2004, at 11:15 AM, Wilson Gray wrote, in response to James
> Smith:
>
>> ..."Phat" is by no means a new spelling or a
>> new meaning for "fat.
>
> this is a very likely source.  extensions of "fat" to cover 'abundant,
> desirable, good, etc.' are well known.  and re-spellings to distinguish
> an original item from its metonymic extensions are also well known;
> "ghey"/"ghay" is how we got into this.
>
>>  However, your alternative solution is way off
>> the mark. Given that "phat" is black street slang, the idea that
>> "phat"
>> might somehow be derived from "phatic" is improbable, to say the
>> least.
>
> i think we can all agree on this.
>
>> "Phat" is actually a  modification of "phatt," which is initial-slang
>> meaning "Pussy, Hips, Ass, Thighs, Tits." This term dates back to at
>> least 1950, when its meaning and use were described to me by a cousin
>> visiting Saint Louis, my home town, from New York City. Its original
>> use was to describe a good-looking girl or woman, as in, e.g. "That
>> chick is phatt!" I know of no reason for the loss of the final "t." I
>> could make some guesses, but I won't waste anyone's time doing so.
>
> we've been down the acronymic road on this one, and it's about as good
> as Found Under Carnal Knowledge for "fuck".  acronymic derivations are
> very very rare outside of technical and administrative contexts, but
> they are suggested again and again for vernacular vocabulary, usually
> -- as in this case -- in many different versions (Pretty Hot And
> Tempting, Pussy Hips Ass Tits, Plenty of Hips And Thighs, Pretty Hips
> And Thighs, Perfect Hips And Thighs, PHysically ATtractive, Pretty Hot
> Ass 'n' Titties, Pritty Horrish At Times, Pretty Heavy And Tubby,
> Pretty Huge And Tubby).  i certainly wouldn't trust *my* cousins'
> hypotheses about etymology.  (one of my cousins, a guy ten years older
> than me, once carefully explained to me that asian women were, umm,
> oriented differently from western women.  he'd been around, but even at
> the age of 10 i was dubious.)
>
> but "phat" does seem to be a black street thing originally, and it does
> seem to have been around for quite some time (decades, not years).
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>

In 1950, my cousin and I were both thirteen years old. I really doubt
that she would have been sophisticated enough at that age to have made
up this derivation. And, given that adults are extremely unlikely to be
aware of the slanguage used by children on the street, especially in
the 'Fifties, I doubt that some well- or ill-meaning adult took her
aside and explained it to her. I conclude, therefore, that the
definition - not hypothesis - that she gave was a genuine one from the
streets of New York City. Note also that my cousin spelled and defined
"phatt" and not "phat" and that this occurred more than five decades
ago. A whole lot of water has gone under that temporal bridge. It's
also the case that, until the advent of hip-hop slang, no form of this
word was used anywhere that I've ever lived - Texas, Missouri,
California, Massachuseetts, Pennsylvania - by anyone of any race or
social class or age group. Even my cousin didn't use the word, except
for that one time, when she was clearly trying to gross out her hick
cousin from the sticks by using language reserved for the use of males.
Hence, it was a hapax legomenon for me prior to coming of hip-hop. The
rest of your argument re acronymic derivation, given that "fuck" is not
slang but standard English, is irrevelant. Besides, Arnold, you're
white and I'll bet that  you've never had any occasion whatsoever to
live among or come to know intimately black people. I, on the other
hand, am black and, naturally, have always lived among black people,
except for the time that I spent at M.I.T., back in the day. An
argument based on what is typical with respect to whites won't map onto
what is typical among blacks.

-Wilson Gray


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun  1 02:38:40 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:38:40 -0400
Subject: Who struck Billie Patterson
In-Reply-To: <200405311232.1buSwJ1303NZFmQ0@tanager>
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.223840.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On May 31, 2004, at 3:32 PM, Jerry Kane wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jerry Kane <Jerryekane at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Who struck Billie Patterson
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> In Los Angeles,  circa 1950, I heard and used the term "Who shot
> John?".
> John's
> imaginary body lay on the floor.
>
> Jerry E. Kane
> Los Angeles, CA
>

I've never used this phrase myself, but my mother, born 1914 in
Longview, TX, uses it all the time, but not as used here. She will say
something like, "That gal had the nerve to come to the board meeting
looking like who-shot-john," i.e. inappropriately dressed. In fact, now
that I think about it, my mother uses it _only_ in phrases involving
look/looks/looked, etc. like who-shot-john as a criticism of the way a
person is dressed.

-Wilson Gray


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Jun  1 02:42:08 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:42:08 -0400
Subject: "all stove up"
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.224208.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The OED lists it first from 1901.

1901 A. C. HEGAN Mrs Wiggs of Cabbage Patch ix. 127 If I was n't so stove
up, an' nobody was n't lookin', I'd jes' skitter 'round this here yard like
a colt!

I'd seriously doubt the connection with a stove.

Sam Clements

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nell Burr" <Nfburr at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 10:07 PM
Subject: "all stove up"


> My partner and I have been trying to track down the etymology of the
> expression "all stove up" which her father used to describe someone who's
very hurt,
> as in "he's all stove up."  Her father was born on the stake plains of
east
> Texas and his father took part in some of the last great cross-country
cattle
> drives as a cowboy for one of the large ranches, possibly the King Ranch.
Our
> best guess is that the expression was born when a cowboy was so injured he
> couldn't do any kind of work and had to just rest by the camp stove until
he was
> hopefully better.  It's logical, I suppose, but is it right?
>
> Also, if anyone can suggest a good book on the derivation of other western
> phrases, it would be much appreciated.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Nell
>


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Jun  1 02:55:14 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:55:14 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "stove up" 1879
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.225514.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, a quick check of Newspaperarchive turns up this Western? quote:

20 Jan. 1979, _Atchison(KS) Globe_ 2/2

<<The friends of Dave Turner will miss him because he was stove up lately on
Second street hill.>>

Now all you need is a "camp stove" predating 1879. :)

Sam Clements

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <SClements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: "all stove up"


> The OED lists it first from 1901.
>
> 1901 A. C. HEGAN Mrs Wiggs of Cabbage Patch ix. 127 If I was n't so stove
> up, an' nobody was n't lookin', I'd jes' skitter 'round this here yard
like
> a colt!
>
> I'd seriously doubt the connection with a stove.
>
> Sam Clements
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nell Burr" <Nfburr at AOL.COM>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 10:07 PM
> Subject: "all stove up"
>
>
> > My partner and I have been trying to track down the etymology of the
> > expression "all stove up" which her father used to describe someone
who's
> very hurt,
> > as in "he's all stove up."  Her father was born on the stake plains of
> east
> > Texas and his father took part in some of the last great cross-country
> cattle
> > drives as a cowboy for one of the large ranches, possibly the King
Ranch.
> Our
> > best guess is that the expression was born when a cowboy was so injured
he
> > couldn't do any kind of work and had to just rest by the camp stove
until
> he was
> > hopefully better.  It's logical, I suppose, but is it right?
> >
> > Also, if anyone can suggest a good book on the derivation of other
western
> > phrases, it would be much appreciated.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Nell
> >
>


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Jun  1 03:05:17 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:05:17 -0400
Subject: Antedating of "stove up" 1864
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.230517.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Alright.  I'll admit it.  It's an ego thing.  I enjoy posting antedates.  So
much so, that I don't do the slow, plodding, professional work that one
should.  So, another minute finds--
8 Jan. 1864   _Portland(OR) Oregonian_ 2/1

<<We are gone in, stove up, smashed, played out, used up, catawampused--in
fact, whipped.  Like old mother Earth, we are flattened at the polls.">>

That last was a reference by the writer to the "democratic party."

Sam Clements


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Jun  1 03:13:40 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:13:40 -0400
Subject: "stove up" (1864)
In-Reply-To: <002101c44783$dccfcbb0$3d611941@sam>
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.231340.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Stove" is the past participle of "stave", I believe. "Stave" is more or
less "smash" or perhaps "beat", so "stove up" is like "beat[en] up".

----------

_Morning Oregonian_ (Portland OR), 8 Jan. 1864: p. 2(?), col. 1:

<<We are gone in, stove up, smashed, played out, used up, catawampused --
in fact, whipped.>>

----------

-- Doug Wilson


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun  1 03:24:03 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:24:03 -0400
Subject: Off the wall
In-Reply-To: <200405310811.1buOrs2Ya3NZFkZ0@quail>
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.232403.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, the late, great blues harpist, Marion Walter "Little Walter"
Jacobs, recorded an instrumental with the title, "Off The Wall," on
March 4, 1953 at the Chess Records studio in Chicago.
Contemporaneously, the phrase, "off the wall," became hip among blacks.
We used it as a general pejorative with the meanings "lame, uncool,
unhip, countrified, stupid, fucked up," etc. In fact, we "old heads"
still use it with these meanings. I've long wondered whether the slang
term was derived from the song title or the song title was inspired by
the slang phrase. Normally, a song would become popular and contribute
new words and/or phrases to the vocabulary of slang. But "Off The
Wall," being an instrumental, had no words, except for its title. And
there's the mystery as to why this neutral phrase came to be used only
as a pejorative, given that a very similar phrase, "off the hook," is
used only as a meliorative.

On May 31, 2004, at 11:11 AM, Baker, John wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Off the wall
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>         It seems unlikely to me that the sense of "off the wall" used
> in The Pool Shark, in reference to a cue that is in a rack on the wall
> and for the general use of the pool room's customers (and thus is of
> lower quality and less reliable than a custom made cue used only by
> its owner), is the source of the familiar phrase meaning odd or crazy.
>  I suspect that this is a nonce-use, and it's a bit of a stretch to
> get from "generic and unreliable" to "odd or crazy."  I'm also
> doubtful of the suggestion in Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable
> (16th ed.) that it alludes to a shot in squash or handball that comes
> off the wall at an unexpected or erratic angle.  The third possibility
> I've come across makes more sense to me:  HDAS quotes English Jour.
> (Mar. 1968), "off-the-wall, means:  could you picture someone bouncing
> himself off a wall."  While this is not as early as it might be (the
> phrase is at least 15 years older), it's still relatively early, and
> it fits with the similar phrase "bouncing off the walls" (meaning
> hyperactive or crazy).
>
> John Baker
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Page Stephens
> Sent: Monday, May 24, 2004 1:05 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Off the wall
>
>
> I am curious where this phrase originated.
>
> I have used it almost all of my life but have no idea.
>
> It was probably in common currency before I heard Dave Dudley's song
> The Pool Shark which goes as follows but it makes very much sense in
> this context that I hesitate to suggest that this is not its origin.
>
> This old pool, billiards and snooker  player who has both owned custom
> made cues and played off the wall would like to know.
>
> You might also like to look at the other phrases in the song including
> "glue 'em up tight", the use of the word, "honey", etc. and go from
> there.
>
> I appreciate the historical references which many of you find for
> usages of words and phrases but as an old anthropologist I am much
> more interested in usages in context at any point in time than I am
> investigating which may or may not have any relationship to the way
> they are/were later used.
>
> This particular song and I could give you a thousand other examples is
> like a usage dictionary frozen in time, and it is my opinion that such
> songs contain words and phrases which made sense to the people who
> heard them but which no longer make any sense to most listeners.
>
> My point if I even have one is that words and phrases cannot be
> understood in terms of their first use but only in terms of the way
> they are used at any point in time which for various socio-cultural,
> technological reasons freeze them.
>
> Page Stephens
>
> Here is the phrase in the song:
>
>             Dave Dudley Album - The Pool Shark lyrics. Date: 01/01/1970
>
>       Pool Shark lyrics
>
>       He said pardon me for bein' so bold but you got a cigarette
> that's already
>       rolled
>       I gave him one he lit it in his own good time
>       The smoke in that poolroom hung like a fog
>       When he talked it sounded like a growling dog
>       He said would you care for a dollar on the five or nine
>       Now this man was ugly and his eyes were mean
>       His clothes were dirty but his hands were clean
>       He held that stick like a mother holds the hand of the child
>       Well I've been known to hustle a few when the waitress said was
> he playing
>       you
>       And I said yeah bring me brandy water by
>       Little Red Parker was way in the back taking quarters and
> hadling racks
>       And I told him Red come up here glue 'em up tight
>       That brandy had me feeling warm I tipped that waitress and I
> checked her
>       form
>       And I said honey you like a winner and she just smiled
>       I played like a man with a broken wrist I won two and he won six
>       And I had him set up so I said let's play for five
>       But this time the crowd had gathered round to see this fish and
> just watch
>       him drown
>       I told that waitress more brandy water by
>       Then he went out and got a custom cue he said it's no offence to
> you
>       But I don't play off the wall with nobody but friends
>       He had a gold initials in a leather grip pearly and silver
> inlaid tip
>       He smiled at me and he said hell-a-way we play for ten
>       Well I never seen a man that walk who made those balls and table
> talk
>       They're speaking English he sure didn't need my help
>       He broke the ball and kept that string for a hundred and eighty
> seven
>       bucks and a ring
>       Till I gave up and said friend you're gonna have to play by
> yourself
>       Well he racked it up and walked outside and I strolled out just
> to watch
>       him ride
>       And there was a blonde in their Caddy built like the rest of
> that car
>       The boys in the poolroom they had 'em a laugh and I hung it up
> and just
>       let it pass
>       And had nothin' but my elbows to put on the bar
>       And the waitress smiled said water by I took the chairity and
> thanked her
>       polite
>       And sittin' there sippin' and suddenly I had me a thought
>       Unlucky gambler and lucky in love guess you know what I was
> thinking of
>       When I said waitress honey what time do you get off
>
>       Copyright(c) 2002-2004 songlyricscollection.com
>       Dave Dudley - Pool Shark lyrics albums, discography of Dave
> Dudley
>


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Jun  1 03:36:25 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:36:25 -0400
Subject: Early use of "phatt" (1873)
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.233625.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Using Newspaperarchive, we find:

3 June, 1955  _Bennington(VT) Evening Banner_  8/5

(This article is referring to Copies of "Josh Billings' Farmer's Alliminax."  One was 1873, one was 1878.

<<Here is a sample of what she found in the 1873 copy:
   
    Joel Briggs a peddlar was, 
    A peddlar of renown,
   He delt in tin ware and sl(?)ich,
   And druv frum town to town.

   "Once his hoss had been a nag,
    A troiting nag at that,
    But now he was a pelter,
   An enny thing but phatt.>>

Now--I have a question.  What's the dialect that 'Josh Bilings' stuff represents?  Black?  Poor white?  I'm sure that I could find it, but others here surely know the answer, and it's getting late.  

Sam Clements


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun  1 03:37:35 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:37:35 -0400
Subject: Off the wall
In-Reply-To: <21E72535-B37B-11D8-A6B6-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.233735.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:24 PM -0400 5/31/04, Wilson Gray wrote:
>FWIW, the late, great blues harpist, Marion Walter "Little Walter"
>Jacobs, recorded an instrumental with the title, "Off The Wall," on
>March 4, 1953 at the Chess Records studio in Chicago.
>Contemporaneously, the phrase, "off the wall," became hip among blacks.
>We used it as a general pejorative with the meanings "lame, uncool,
>unhip, countrified, stupid, fucked up," etc. In fact, we "old heads"
>still use it with these meanings. I've long wondered whether the slang
>term was derived from the song title or the song title was inspired by
>the slang phrase. Normally, a song would become popular and contribute
>new words and/or phrases to the vocabulary of slang. But "Off The
>Wall," being an instrumental, had no words, except for its title. And
>there's the mystery as to why this neutral phrase came to be used only
>as a pejorative, given that a very similar phrase, "off the hook," is
>used only as a meliorative.
>
How similar is it?  I assume "off the hook" is a reference to
fishing, while that's not involved in "off the wall".

Larry


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun  1 03:55:01 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 23:55:01 -0400
Subject: Off the wall
In-Reply-To: <200405312037.1bv05OHY3NZFmQ0@tanager>
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.235501.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There are two different "off the hooks," so to speak. The fishing one
has to do primarily with getting out of a tight. (In BE, it's not
necessary to add "spot" or some such after "tight"). "The note from my
wife got me off the hook." The other, hip-hop one is derived from
phrases like, "The telephone has been ringing _off the hook_ all day"
because something really important is happening and you need to know
about it, so you can get the hook-up.

-Wilson

On May 31, 2004, at 11:37 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Off the wall
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 11:24 PM -0400 5/31/04, Wilson Gray wrote:
>> FWIW, the late, great blues harpist, Marion Walter "Little Walter"
>> Jacobs, recorded an instrumental with the title, "Off The Wall," on
>> March 4, 1953 at the Chess Records studio in Chicago.
>> Contemporaneously, the phrase, "off the wall," became hip among
>> blacks.
>> We used it as a general pejorative with the meanings "lame, uncool,
>> unhip, countrified, stupid, fucked up," etc. In fact, we "old heads"
>> still use it with these meanings. I've long wondered whether the slang
>> term was derived from the song title or the song title was inspired by
>> the slang phrase. Normally, a song would become popular and contribute
>> new words and/or phrases to the vocabulary of slang. But "Off The
>> Wall," being an instrumental, had no words, except for its title. And
>> there's the mystery as to why this neutral phrase came to be used only
>> as a pejorative, given that a very similar phrase, "off the hook," is
>> used only as a meliorative.
>>
> How similar is it?  I assume "off the hook" is a reference to
> fishing, while that's not involved in "off the wall".
>
> Larry
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Jun  1 05:12:21 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 01:12:21 -0400
Subject: Off the wall
In-Reply-To: <p0432040bbce1aa476e7d@[130.132.166.218]>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.011221.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's another possibility, and I sorta like this one.

"Off the wall" = "cracked" or so.

Think Humpty Dumpty.

-- Doug Wilson


From dave at WILTON.NET  Tue Jun  1 05:17:38 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 31 May 2004 22:17:38 -0700
Subject: Early use of "phatt" (1873)
In-Reply-To: <005101c44789$9def64e0$3d611941@sam>
Message-ID: <MON.31.MAY.2004.221738.0700.>

Henry Wheeler Shaw, who used the pseudonym was born and raised in
Massachusetts. As an adult he settled in Poughkeepsie, NY, where he did most
of his writing. "Josh Billings" was poor, white, and rural. I assume that he
was supposed to be from either New England or upstate NY.

Whether this represents a continuous line of usage is a question. I would
suspect that the modern, urban use of "phat/phatt" is a separate coinage.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Sam Clements
> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 8:36 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Early use of "phatt" (1873)
>
>
> Using Newspaperarchive, we find:
>
> 3 June, 1955  _Bennington(VT) Evening Banner_  8/5
>
> (This article is referring to Copies of "Josh Billings' Farmer's
> Alliminax."  One was 1873, one was 1878.
>
> <<Here is a sample of what she found in the 1873 copy:
>
>     Joel Briggs a peddlar was,
>     A peddlar of renown,
>    He delt in tin ware and sl(?)ich,
>    And druv frum town to town.
>
>    "Once his hoss had been a nag,
>     A troiting nag at that,
>     But now he was a pelter,
>    An enny thing but phatt.>>
>
> Now--I have a question.  What's the dialect that 'Josh Bilings'
> stuff represents?  Black?  Poor white?  I'm sure that I could
> find it, but others here surely know the answer, and it's getting late.
>
> Sam Clements
>
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  1 05:37:20 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 01:37:20 EDT
Subject: Sport Peppers (1980); Slider/Slyder (1983);  Italian Beef
 Sandwich (1953)
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.013720.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SPORT PEPPERS
  
   DARE's Joan Hall asked:
  
Sometime within the last few months I've seen a discussion of "sport pepper," 
the small, somewhat spicy, pickled pepper that accompanies a Chicago-style 
hot dog.  I assumed that it was here on the list, but I don'tfind it in the 
archives.  Does anyone else remember such a discussion, hereor anywhere else?  
(This preceded the reference in the New York Times on April 14.)  Our earliest 
citation right now is from 1996, which seems very late.  Any earlier ones would 
be appreciated, as would personalrecollections of the term (when and where).
Thanks,
Joan
    
 
   It's not in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, up to 1946 on ProQuest.  We just have to 
wait longer.
   Newspaperarchive.com seems to have added some Chicago newspapers very 
recently (see "Italian Beef" discussion below), but I still didn't see it there.
   In November 2003 I'd posted this, which _is_ in the ADS-L archives:
  
  
(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
'RED HOT CHICAGO' PUTS ON THE DOG:[SPORTS FINAL, D Edition]
Chicago Tribune (Pre-1997 Fulltext). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 10, 1986.  pg. 11.B
Red Hot Chicago," an award-winning entertainment special that takes an 
upbeat, humorous look at America's favorite food, the hot dog, will be shown at 9 
p.m. Wednesday on WTTW-Ch. 11.
  
The half-hour program focuses on the Chicago-style frankfurter, a steamed hot 
dog traditionally topped with mustard, pickle relish and chopped onions as 
well as fresh sliced tomato, wedges of dill pickles, hot sport peppers, shredded 
lettuce, cucumber slices and celery salt.
(This is also the first citation on www.chicagotribune.com--ed.)
  
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS--WASHINGTON POST)
Dog Days on the Potomac
By Diane Granat Special to The Washington Post. The Washington Post 
(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Sep 11, 1980. p. E1 (2 pages)
("Sport peppers" appears to be here in tiny print on E21.  The Chicago 
article is described in detail--ed.)   
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SLIDER
  
   I don't know if DARE will have this.  I had a shake tonight at Sassy's 
Sliders (www.sassyssliders.com).  We've discussed the "slider" before, but didn't 
arrive at an early citation date.
    
    
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  The Golden Oldie: McHeaven Can Whit; Does McDonald's No. 1, In Des 
Plaines, Ill., Face Fallen Arches? The Original McDonald's faces a Case of 
fallen Arches 
By Paul Hendrickson. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, 
D.C.: Jan 11, 1983. p. C1 (2 pages) 
     
    2.  White Castle's Search for Youth; Old White Castle Chain Seeks a 
Youthful Image 
By JULIA FLYNN SILERSpecial to The New York Times. New York Times 
(1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 7, 1988. p. 37 (2 pages)   
    
  
(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   SLYDERS 
Goods and Services  (ABANDONED) IC 042. US 100. G & S: HAMBURGER SLYDER 
RESTAURANT FRANCHISING. FIRST USE: 19830101. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19830105  
Mark Drawing Code   (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS  
Serial Number   73436740    
Filing Date July 11, 1983   
Current Filing Basis    1A  
Original Filing Basis   1A  
Owner   (APPLICANT) CHICAGO HAMBURGER CO. RESTAURANT, CORP CORPORATION 
ILLINOIS 306 N. GALENA ST. FREEPORT ILLINOIS 61032 
Type of Mark    SERVICE MARK    
Register    PRINCIPAL   
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD    
Abandonment Date    October 31, 1984    
 
 
(TRADEMARK)
Word Mark   SLYDERS 
Goods and Services  IC 030. US 046. G & S: prepared sandwiches for 
consumption on or off the premises. FIRST USE: 19930314. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19930314   

Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING   
Serial Number   74384698    
Filing Date April 30, 1993  
Current Filing Basis    1A  
Original Filing Basis   1A  
Supplemental Register Date  May 4, 1994 
Registration Number 1861520 
Registration Date   November 1, 1994    
Owner   (REGISTRANT) White Castle System, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 555 West 
Goodale Street Columbus OHIO 432151171   
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED 
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK   
Register    SUPPLEMENTAL    
Affidavit Text  SECT 8 (6-YR).  
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE    
  
  
(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   WHITE CASTLE SLIDER PILOT   
Goods and Services  (CANCELLED) IC 025. US 039. G & S: clothing; namely, 
caps, shirts, and sweatshirts. FIRST USE: 19910820. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 
19910827    
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING   
Serial Number   74279948    
Filing Date June 1, 1992    
Current Filing Basis    1A  
Original Filing Basis   1A  
Published for Opposition    November 10, 1992   
Registration Number 1750223 
Registration Date   February 2, 1993    
Owner   (REGISTRANT) White Castle System, Inc. CORPORATION DELAWARE 555 West 
Goodale Street Columbus OHIO 432151158   
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED 
Attorney of Record  Belinda L. Reynolds 
Prior Registrations 0501821;0535144;0962253;1303293;1308422;AND OTHERS  
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK   
Register    PRINCIPAL   
Affidavit Text  SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). 
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD    
Cancellation Date   November 8, 2003    

  
(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   SLIDERS BURGERS & DOGS  
Goods and Services  IC 042. US 100. G & S: restaurant services featuring 
hamburgers and hot dogs for consumption on or off the premises. FIRST USE: 
19930413. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19930413   
Mark Drawing Code   (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS  
Design Search Code  220101  
Serial Number   74417469    
Filing Date July 27, 1993   
Current Filing Basis    1A  
Original Filing Basis   1A  
Published for Opposition    October 18, 1994    
Registration Number 1872939 
Registration Date   January 10, 1995    
Owner   (REGISTRANT) DETROIT TIGERS, INC. CORPORATION MICHIGAN 150 West 
Jefferson, Suite 2500 Detroit MICHIGAN 48226  
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED 
Attorney of Record  Brian D. Anderson   
Disclaimer  NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE "BURGERS & DOGS" 
APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN  
Description of Mark The lining in the drawing is a feature of the mark and 
does not represent color.  
Type of Mark    SERVICE MARK    
Register    PRINCIPAL   
Affidavit Text  SECT 8 (6-YR).  
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE    
  
 
(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   BETTY BROWN'S BROADWAY DINING FOUNTAIN SERVICE SLIDERS  
Goods and Services  (ABANDONED) IC 042. US 100. G & S: EAT IN AND TAKE OUT 
RESTAURANT SERVICES. FIRST USE: 19851218. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19851218  
Mark Drawing Code   (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS  
Design Search Code  071302 241525 260101 261321 
Serial Number   73594369    
Filing Date April 21, 1986  
Current Filing Basis    1A  
Original Filing Basis   1A  
Owner   (APPLICANT) FATHER BRAD'S BROADWAY DINING INC. CORPORATION NEW YORK 
215 WEST 29TH STREET NEW YORK NEW YORK 10001  
Attorney of Record  HOWARD N. ARONSON   
Type of Mark    SERVICE MARK    
Register    PRINCIPAL   
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD    
Abandonment Date    January 23, 1987    
  
 
(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   SLIDERS 
Goods and Serrvices  (ABANDONED) IC 042. US 100. G & S: RESTAURANT SERVICES. 
FIRST USE: 19830420. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19830420 
Mark Drawing Code   (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM 
Serial Number   73440658    
Filing Date August 23, 1983 
Current Filing Basis    1A  
Original Filing Basis   1A  
Owner   (APPLICANT) PAGANES, RICHARD UR DBA, SLIDERS HAMBURGER STAND 
INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 30991 UTICA RD. ROSEVILLE MICHIGAN 48066    
Attorney of Record  WILLIAM J. SCHRAMM  
Type of Mark    SERVICE MARK    
Register    PRINCIPAL   
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD    
Abandonment Date    March 21, 1984  

  
(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   SLIDERS 
Goods and Services  (ABANDONED) IC 030. US 046. G & S: FAST FOOD HAMBURGERS. 
FIRST USE: 19830215. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19830301 
Mark Drawing Code   (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS  
Serial Number   73419891    
Filing Date April 4, 1983   
Current Filing Basis    1A  
Original Filing Basis   1A  
Owner   (APPLICANT) GARNER CORPORATION CORPORATION COLORADO 6600 E. HAMPDEN 
AVE. 3RD FLOOR DENVER COLORADO 80224  
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK   
Register    PRINCIPAL   
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD    
Abandonment Date    November 17, 1983   


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Frederick Post - 7/7/1993   
...who visited Columbus, ate 10 SLIDERS for the first time, and was 
so.....Each of us had a vanilla shake and FRIES. I felt fine the next day. If you..
Frederick, Maryland Wednesday, July 07, 1993  747 k     
    
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CHICAGO'S FAMOUS "ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICHES"
    
   See the ProQuest citations below.  There's NOTHING for "Italian beef" in 
the Chicago Tribune (up to 1946)!
   Newspaperarchive.com has some interesting hits, for anyone interested.
  
  
(GOOGLE)
Chicago's famous Italian beef sandwichesChicago's famous Italian beef 
sandwiches. Ochef.com answers life?s vexing cooking questions each day. ... Chicago 
Italian Beef Sandwich. Ingredients: ... 
www.ochef.com/146.htm - 22k - Cached - Similar pages    

Chowhound's Chicago Area Message Board: Best Italian beef in ...Chowhound's 
Chicago Area Message Board. Subject: Best Italian beef in Chicago and burbs 
Name: Brian Schwartz Posted: May 01, 2004 at 11:18:07 ... 
www.chowhound.com/midwest/boards/ chicago/messages/47119.html - 9k - Cached - 
Similar pages   

RecipeSource: Chicago Italian Beef Sandwiches... of Recipes and your source 
for recipes on the Internet. Home : Main Dishes : Sandwich Recipes : Chicago 
Italian Beef Sandwiches. ... 
www.recipesource.com/main-dishes/ sandwiches/03/rec0308.html - 10k - Cached - 
Similar pages   

chicago italian beef sandwicheschicago italian beef sandwiches Notes If you 
fix a large roast for dinner, take the leftovers, sliced thinly, and put your 
Italian ... 
www.sweetbabymedia.com/recipes/ allbynumber4/017052.shtml - 13k - Cached - 
Similar pages  

Chicago Style Italian Beef... Chicago Style Italian Beef Recipe By : 
Florentina Website : http://www.crockerykitchen.com Serves/Makes : 8 Categories : 
Sandwiches 1 rump roast, rolled flour ... 
www.crockerykitchen.com/recipes/ca/ sandw/ca-sand1035342799.shtml - 11k - 
Cached - Similar pages  


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("Italian beef")
    1.  ITALIAN BEEF.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 2, 1882. p. 12 (1 
page) 
     
    2.  Display Ad 79 -- No Title
The Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Jan 15, 1919. p. II6 (1 page) 
      
    3.  PRACTICAL RECIPES; Helps for Epicures and All Who Appreciate Good 
Cooking 
The Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Oct 21, 1922. p. II7 (1 page)    
      
    4.  CHEF WYMAN'S Suggestions For TOMORROW'S MENU
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 6, 1927. p. 
A6 (1 page) 
      
    5.  CHEF WYMANS RECIPES; MAPLE BAVARIAN CREAM 
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 13, 1929. p. 
A6 (1 page) 
      
    6.  The Lancer
Harry Carr. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 
8, 1932. p. A1 (1 page) 
      
    7.  Cape Town Men Refuse To Load Beef for Italians
Wireless to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New 
York, N.Y.: Sep 2, 1935. p. 1 (1 page)   
     
    8.  Croquettes Make Tasty Encore
LONA GILBERT. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 
24, 1938. p. A8 (1 page) 
    
    9.  Y-Wives Club Feeds On Recipe Ideas; Y-Wives Swap Recipe Ideas 
By Maxine Cheshire. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). 
Washington, D.C.: Nov 1, 1956. p. C13 (2 pages)     
    
       
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("Italian beef sandwich")
Mansfield News Journal - 12/4/1953  
...for luncheon. Pizza pie, ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICH and swiss steak. 
Evenings.....byKarL _________ NEW? TRY IT Genuine ITALIAN Pizza to take "ONE-STOP..
Mansfield, Ohio Friday, December 04, 1953  775 k    
        
Southtown Economist - 5/14/1958     
...you to try our delicious Pizza ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICHES on French topped 
with..
Chicago, Illinois Wednesday, May 14, 1958  633 k    
     
Southtown Economist - 6/29/1958     
...6rand Opeiif ng jH. PIZZA BEEF SANDWICHES FOR DE LISA SPECIAL A.....PIZZA 
SPECIAL FOR 50c DELICIOUS ITALIAN BEEF ON OUR TASTY FRENCH BREAD..
Chicago, Illinois Sunday, June 29, 1958  504 k      
        
Oshkosh Daily Northwestern - 7/31/1959  
...ACCORDION SERVING AT ALL TIMES: Hot BEEF SANDWICHES Homc-Bohcd Bean? 
COLD.....NEWEST AND FINEST IN OSHKOSH FEATURING ITALIAN BEEF AND PORK SAUSAGES FOR 
THE..
Oshkosh, Wisconsin Friday, July 31, 1959  762 k     
      
Edwardsville Intelligencer - 1/9/1960   
...broiled steaks. Try our famous ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICH on Vienna roll. We 
serve.....3506 John Elalavonich. Stnunton, til. BEEF QUARTERSDressed hogs. 
Government..
Edwardsville, Illinois Saturday, January 09, 1960  726 k    
     
Holland Evening Sentinel - 9/9/1964     
...up hamburgers and roast BEEF. ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICH is a rieal-in-itsclf 
when.....wholesome meals without gt; ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICH fuss Canned BEEF, 
chicken..
Holland, Michigan Wednesday, September 09, 1964  929 k      
    
Iowa City Press Citizen - 9/18/1969     
...HAM on Frer.cn Bread .C'> ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICH Choice cf BEEF aa 
Jus.....on Brown Bread .95 ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICH on French Bread J95 MEATBALL..
Iowa City, Iowa Thursday, September 18, 1969  528 k     
  
Journal - 1/9/1974  
...MEATBALLS SANDWICH ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICH JANUARY SPECIAL LUNCH FOR 
554.....CHICAGO, ILL. 622-7999 CHAR-BURGERS, BEEF SANDWICH..
Chicago, Illinois Wednesday, January 09, 1974  423 k    
    
World - 10/9/1974   
...15' Extra On All SANDWICHes ITALIAN BEEF SANDWICH I05 POLISH 
SAUSAGE.....Order will be ready when you arrive BEEF BURGERS Bun All The Way On a Tasty..
Chicago, Illinois Wednesday, October 09, 1974  422 k    
    
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
OT:  DAVID SHULMAN FIASCO FALLOUT
  
   It's been a great month.  Censored from Google Answers for providing a 
correct answer on "the Big Apple."  Begging an entire month before the New York 
Public Library's Ask-A-Librarian to change an incorrect "Big Apple" FAQ.  
Having your ridiculous salary broadcast in the New York Times.
   But nothing tops yesterday's $850-a-month handover request by David 
Shulman.  (For those of you who don't know, the 91-year-old David Shulman has been 
an ADS-member for about 65 years.)
   Today (a holiday), I phoned my sister.  She has an autistic child.  She 
was incredulous.  She said I shouldn't even be giving him t-shirts, or paying 
for his books, or giving him a penny.  She has a good point.
   At Parking Violations, I've given t-shirts to someone there as well.  
"I'll PAY you," he always says, like it was some favor.  Then he points to his 
wallet.  "FILTHY LUCRE!"  When I return with the goods, he says,"How much is it?  
Five dollars?"
   I returned from a long 20+-hour flight from Africa last month.  My ears 
couldn't hear after the long flight.  I worked the next day.  In my rush for the 
subway, I left the bag of t-shirts at the newsstand, and they were lost.
   He wouldn't pay for it.
   I said that I had shirts just like it, for myself.  He said to bring them 
in to work.
   "What do you want for these?  Five dollars?  I'll PAY you for it!"
   For those just joining us after reading Safire's column...well, it's a 
long story.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  1 07:49:54 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 03:49:54 EDT
Subject: Snicker doodle (1902)
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.034954.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The ProQuest Chicago Tribune database comes through again.  See past
citations for "snickerdoodle(s)" and "snicker doodle(s)" and "snippy doodle(s)" in
the ADS-L archives.
   DARE (the Dictionary of American Regional English) stops at the letters
"Sk" with volume four.  They owe me a snack.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Other 4 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 25, 1902. p. 12 (1
page)
("A LINE-O'-TYPE OR TWO" by B. L. T.--ed.)
   THE ARISTOCRATIC AND LITERARY
      SNICKER DOODLE
   The weekly reading was conducted last Thursday afternoon at the residence
of Mrs. Hiatt.  Quite a number of ladies were present with some light work.
Refreshments of coffee, chocolate and snicker doodles and cheese were
served.--Mount Vernon (Ind.) Democrat.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  1 08:33:45 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 04:33:45 EDT
Subject: Duck Soup (1897)
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.043345.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Another gem from the newly digitized Proquest Chicago Tribune!  This is
like duck soup.
   The term was not coined by the Marx brothers, of course.  The HISTORICAL
DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG has 1902, from T. A. Dorgan.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Other 12 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 23, 1897. p. 10 (1
page) :
   P. A. Brady, one of the more successful of retired bookmakers, and
formerly an owner of race horses, said: "It has now come to an issue where every man
must show his colors.  I am out of the business and so this fight is duck soup
for me."


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Tue Jun  1 12:19:29 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 08:19:29 -0400
Subject: Preakness
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.081929.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Damien Hall <halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>

<snip>

: From my reading, the name of Preakness (NJ) is a member of the small
: class of words (eg *great*, *break*) which were not included in the
: sound-change whereby <ea> came to be pronounced [i:];  according to
: my reading, Preakness, NJ is pronounced [preiknIs].

: But, twice in the last two days, I've heard National Public Radio
: announcers pronounce it [prikn at s] ([@] = schwa).  Is this
: widely-attested?  Could we be witnessing a change in the normative
: pronunciation?

Coming into this a bit late, but i thought it might be useful to toss out a
Maryland native's (b. 1970, grew up south of DC) take on this: Growing up, i
never, ever heard "Preakness" pronounced as anything other than [prikn at s].
(I use the transcription system where [i] is tense, [I] is lax.) I was more
than shocked to find out, in grad school, that the Preakness was "actually"
pronounced [prekn at s].

One time i did fieldwork in Southern Maryland a bit ago, i figured i'd see
if i was just weird, and i asked people how they pronounced the name of the
race. By far the most common answer? [pImlIko], after the town it's run
in--and that's among the relatively few who could come up with a name for
the race at all. Kind of fitting for the forgotten leg of the Triple Crown,
actually.

Now if people could just explain why the play "O Christmas tree" before the
Preakness starts...

<snip>

(In fear someone takes that last bit seriously: Yes, i do know why. I'm a
native Marylander, remember? I'm *used* to cringing at my state's anthem.)

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  1 12:27:34 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 08:27:34 EDT
Subject: Railroad Fried Rice etc.
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.082734.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated  Mon, 31 May 2004 17:39:53 EDT,   Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:

>  RAILROAD FRIED RICE
>     I dined at the Thai restaurant Sa-Way on First Avenue and East 77th
Street
>  last night.  It has:
>  RAILROAD FRIED RICE 9.95--Marinated in our own very special red sauce, with
>  white meat chicken and succulent shrimp.
>
>     I usually don't associate railroads with fine dining.  No one goes into
>  the Four Seasons and asks for the "Amtrak Special."

On the contrary.  In the grand days of Pullman travel (say before WWII),
railroad dining cars had a reputation for fine cuisine.  It was mostly lost in the
post-WWII pre-Amtrak decline of railroad passenger service, but has not been
entirely lost.  (I met someone who would take the Southern Crescent from
Washington DC to Alexandria VA just to eat in the Crescent's dining car.)

I once tried, without success, to determine if hash-browns were invented by
railroad dining car chefs.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Which leads to the word "pax".  The National Railroad Passenger Corporation,
before it paid a New York advertising firm to invent the name "Amtrak", was
referred to as "Railpax".

Also it might be relevant to note that the Patuxent River Naval Air Station
in Maryland is commonly referred to as "Pax River" or simply as "Pax".

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Back to dining, sort of.  My guess about "all stove up" is that it refers not
to camp stoves but to the stove wood that they burned, which has to be
chopped up into pieces small enough to fit into the stove.  Hence the wood (or so I
speculate) had to be "all stove up", with a natural extension to someone who
was beaten up or otherwise incapacitated as "all stove up".

       - Jim Landau


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Jun  1 12:35:29 2004
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Allen D. Maberry)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 05:35:29 -0700
Subject: "all stove up"
In-Reply-To: <200406010218.i512I7EY009347@mxe1.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.053529.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've heard "all stove up" all my life (Oregon and Washington). I don't know the actual derivation of it, but I've always heard it in the sense of being very stiff and sore, or having severe stiffness in one's joints and having difficulty moving, not necessarily being badly injured. Since the way I heard the expression used indicated being stiff and sore, I always figured it being used as a form of "to stiffen" in the expession "stiffen up".

allen


On Mon, 31 May 2004, Nell Burr wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Nell Burr <Nfburr at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      "all stove up"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> My partner and I have been trying to track down the etymology of the
> expression "all stove up" which her father used to describe someone who's very hurt,
> as in "he's all stove up."  Her father was born on the stake plains of east
> Texas and his father took part in some of the last great cross-country cattle
> drives as a cowboy for one of the large ranches, possibly the King Ranch.  Our
> best guess is that the expression was born when a cowboy was so injured he
> couldn't do any kind of work and had to just rest by the camp stove until he was
> hopefully better.  It's logical, I suppose, but is it right?
>
> Also, if anyone can suggest a good book on the derivation of other western
> phrases, it would be much appreciated.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Nell
>


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Jun  1 12:56:15 2004
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 05:56:15 -0700
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <D300AAD4-B372-11D8-A6B6-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.055615.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I grew up in central Virginia in the fifties and sixties and 'phat' was a popular term among me and my friends (and FWIW, I am black).


Wilson Gray <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:

 Note also that my cousin spelled and defined
"phatt" and not "phat" and that this occurred more than five decades
ago. A whole lot of water has gone under that temporal bridge. It's
also the case that, until the advent of hip-hop slang, no form of this
word was used anywhere that I've ever lived - Texas, Missouri,
California, Massachuseetts, Pennsylvania - by anyone of any race or
social class or age group.
-Wilson Gray

Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Professor of English & Linguistics
  and University Editor
Department of English
Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home)
margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu   or   mlee303 at yahoo.com

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends.  Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Tue Jun  1 12:59:08 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 08:59:08 -0400
Subject: "all stove up"
In-Reply-To: <200406011235.ATA68365@mirapointmr2.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.085908.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:35 AM 6/1/2004, you wrote:
>I've heard "all stove up" all my life (Oregon and Washington). I don't
>know the actual derivation of it, but I've always heard it in the sense of
>being very stiff and sore, or having severe stiffness in one's joints and
>having difficulty moving, not necessarily being badly injured. Since the
>way I heard the expression used indicated being stiff and sore, I always
>figured it being used as a form of "to stiffen" in the expession "stiffen up".

Having read lots of seafaring books I'm making a WAG here, but I'd guess
that 'stove-up' is derived from the same root as 'stove-in', meaning busted
up, smashed, especially of the hull of boats.  According to the OED it
derives from 'stave' (v.) meaning to break up a barrel into its component
staves.

Geoff


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Tue Jun  1 13:29:01 2004
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 09:29:01 -0400
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=22all?= stove =?utf-8?Q?up=22?=
In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20040601085621.026708a0@mail.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.092901.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Geoff Nathan writes:

> At 08:35 AM 6/1/2004, you wrote:
>> I've heard "all stove up" all my life (Oregon and Washington). I don't
>> know the actual derivation of it, but I've always heard it in the sense
>> of
>> being very stiff and sore, or having severe stiffness in one's joints and
>> having difficulty moving, not necessarily being badly injured. Since the
>> way I heard the expression used indicated being stiff and sore, I always
>> figured it being used as a form of "to stiffen" in the expession "stiffen
>> up".
>
> Having read lots of seafaring books I'm making a WAG here, but I'd guess
> that 'stove-up' is derived from the same root as 'stove-in', meaning
> busted
> up, smashed, especially of the hull of boats.  According to the OED it
> derives from 'stave' (v.) meaning to break up a barrel into its component
> staves.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the verb form "To accidently bend back (a
finger or toe) and injure the joint at its base," which is the only meaning
I recognize.
___________________________
David Bergdahl


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Tue Jun  1 13:33:22 2004
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 09:33:22 EDT
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.093322.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This reminds me of the Weavers' song-- not sure of the title but the first
line is "We sailed on the ship John D."  --they sing "I feel so break-up, I
wanna go home"   When I heard the Beach Boys version not so long ago they changed
it to "I feel so broke up" which makes more sense to me-- almost in the sense
we're talking about in "stove up"-- can anyone enlighten me on "feel so
break-up?"  why break and not broke?

DF Coye
The College of NJ


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun  1 14:06:12 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 10:06:12 -0400
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
In-Reply-To: <200406010633.1bv9oH13M3NZFlr0@killdeer>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.100612.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 1, 2004, at 9:33 AM, Dale Coye wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Dale Coye <Dalecoye at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> This reminds me of the Weavers' song-- not sure of the title but the
> first
> line is "We sailed on the ship John D."  --they sing "I feel so
> break-up, I
> wanna go home"   When I heard the Beach Boys version not so long ago
> they changed
> it to "I feel so broke up" which makes more sense to me-- almost in
> the sense
> we're talking about in "stove up"-- can anyone enlighten me on "feel so
> break-up?"  why break and not broke?
>
> DF Coye
> The College of NJ

"The Ship 'John B.'" is a folksong of Caribbean origin - Jamaican, I
think, but maybe not - and uses some form of Caribbean English. Is it
true that the Beach Boys sing "broke up"? I've always heard it as
"break up." My mistake, I guess.

-Wilson Gray


From markjjones at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Jun  1 15:29:05 2004
From: markjjones at HOTMAIL.COM (Mark Jones)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 15:29:05 +0000
Subject: American English interdental /l/
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.152905.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear List Members,

As a native speaker of British English, I have the impression that an
interdental lateral /l/ is a possible realisation in American English,
perhaps associated with young West Coast females. I would appreciate
hearing from anyone who has any insights and observations, or
published data, on how common this realisation of /l/ is and whether
my impressions are correct. I will post a summary of any responses in
due course.

This request for information has also been posted on LinguistList. I
apologise to those of you who have received it from both sources.

Many thanks

Mark

Mark J. Jones
Department of Linguistics
University of Cambridge, UK

_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE connection, FREE modem and one month's FREE line rental, plus a
US or European flight when you sign up for BT Broadband!
http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun  1 15:47:49 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 11:47:49 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <200406010556.1bv8Oz3RB3NZFmQ0@tanager>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.114749.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That's interesting to know. I'd always considered the use of "phat(t)"
to be strictly a local, New-York-City thing. I also considered it to be
a lame, off-the-wall expression with no staying power. To this day,
I've never had occasion to speak this word. Even when I was in the
Army, with other brothers from all over the US, I never heard anyone
use "phat(t)." Imagine my astonishment when it, from my point of view,
suddenly rose from the dead, decades after the one other time that I'd
ever heard it, riding the crest of the wave of hip-hop. As the late,
great Fats Waller once put it, "One never knows, do one?"

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 1, 2004, at 8:56 AM, Margaret Lee wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Margaret Lee <mlee303 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I grew up in central Virginia in the fifties and sixties and 'phat'
> was a popular term among me and my friends (and FWIW, I am black).
>
>
> Wilson Gray <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
>
>  Note also that my cousin spelled and defined
> "phatt" and not "phat" and that this occurred more than five decades
> ago. A whole lot of water has gone under that temporal bridge. It's
> also the case that, until the advent of hip-hop slang, no form of this
> word was used anywhere that I've ever lived - Texas, Missouri,
> California, Massachuseetts, Pennsylvania - by anyone of any race or
> social class or age group.
> -Wilson Gray
>
> Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
> Professor of English & Linguistics
>   and University Editor
> Department of English
> Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
> 757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home)
> margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu   or   mlee303 at yahoo.com
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Friends.  Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger
>


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Jun  1 15:52:11 2004
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 11:52:11 -0400
Subject: American English interdental /l/
In-Reply-To: <BAY1-F130YCGr25y0EL0003ab30@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.115211.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark Jones said:
>Dear List Members,
>
>As a native speaker of British English, I have the impression that an
>interdental lateral /l/ is a possible realisation in American English,
>perhaps associated with young West Coast females. I would appreciate
>hearing from anyone who has any insights and observations, or
>published data, on how common this realisation of /l/ is and whether
>my impressions are correct. I will post a summary of any responses in
>due course.
>
>This request for information has also been posted on LinguistList. I
>apologise to those of you who have received it from both sources.

Here's a New York anecdote for you.

One of the sports anchors on a radio station I listen to is named
"Bob Galercole". Until I saw his name written down, I thought it was
"Gathercole".

--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Jun  1 16:15:17 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:15:17 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.121517.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        This is extremely interesting information.  It shows that phat(t) was in use over 50 years ago, and that the acronymic etymology is quite old.  What it does not tell us is whether phat(t) actually originated as an acronym (though of course the age of the acronymic etymology is evidence in that direction).  After all, we know that pumpernickel does not derive from "C'est bon pour Nichol," even though that explanation accompanies the first use of "pumpernickel" in English.  Unless your cousin or one of her acquaintances actually coined "phatt," then her account is not going to be definitive.

        Jonathon Green and Arnold Zwicky may not be black (I'm guessing that they're not), but they're two of the most knowledgeable posters on ADS-L.  In any case, I think there is a plethora of examples to show that ordinary users of terms typically don't understand the terms' derivations.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Wilson Gray
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 10:25 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]


In 1950, my cousin and I were both thirteen years old. I really doubt
that she would have been sophisticated enough at that age to have made
up this derivation. And, given that adults are extremely unlikely to be
aware of the slanguage used by children on the street, especially in
the 'Fifties, I doubt that some well- or ill-meaning adult took her
aside and explained it to her. I conclude, therefore, that the
definition - not hypothesis - that she gave was a genuine one from the
streets of New York City. Note also that my cousin spelled and defined
"phatt" and not "phat" and that this occurred more than five decades
ago. A whole lot of water has gone under that temporal bridge. It's
also the case that, until the advent of hip-hop slang, no form of this
word was used anywhere that I've ever lived - Texas, Missouri,
California, Massachuseetts, Pennsylvania - by anyone of any race or
social class or age group. Even my cousin didn't use the word, except
for that one time, when she was clearly trying to gross out her hick
cousin from the sticks by using language reserved for the use of males.
Hence, it was a hapax legomenon for me prior to coming of hip-hop. The
rest of your argument re acronymic derivation, given that "fuck" is not
slang but standard English, is irrevelant. Besides, Arnold, you're
white and I'll bet that  you've never had any occasion whatsoever to
live among or come to know intimately black people. I, on the other
hand, am black and, naturally, have always lived among black people,
except for the time that I spent at M.I.T., back in the day. An
argument based on what is typical with respect to whites won't map onto
what is typical among blacks.

-Wilson Gray


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun  1 17:00:36 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 13:00:36 -0400
Subject: Early use of "phatt" (1873)
In-Reply-To: <20040601040432.8D0A92282A@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.130036.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sam Clements <SClements at NEO.RR.COM> scripsit:
        >>>
<<Here is a sample of what she found in the 1873 copy:
    Joel Briggs a peddlar was,
    A peddlar of renown,
   He delt in tin ware and sl(?)ich,
        <<<

I guess that this is almost certainly "sich" = "such".

-- Mark A. Mandel, Research Administrator
   Information Extraction from the Biomedical Literature
   University of Pennsylvania


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun  1 17:19:06 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 13:19:06 -0400
Subject: Off the wall
In-Reply-To: <20040601040432.8D0A92282A@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.131906.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET> says

        >>>
There are two different "off the hooks," so to speak. The fishing one
has to do primarily with getting out of a tight. (In BE, it's not
necessary to add "spot" or some such after "tight"). "The note from my
wife got me off the hook." The other, hip-hop one is derived from
phrases like, "The telephone has been ringing _off the hook_ all day"
because something really important is happening and you need to know
about it, so you can get the hook-up.
        <<<

"Hook-up" has nothing to do with it -- maybe you were just adding that as a
decorative fillip, but it's not clear to me. "Ringing off the hook" long
antedates hip-hop and the modern social sense of "hook-up".

"On-hook" and "off-hook" are states of the telephone circuit. Normally it's
on hook = hung up, not in use, ready to receive a call. When you pick up the
receiver it's off hook.

I know these as technical terms, but I am assuming that they derive from a
period when the part of the telephone that one picked up was literally
supported by a hook when not in use. If I recall correctly, that accurately
describes the old upright sets (before my day, but familiar from cartoons
and antique stores) in which the microphone was at the top of a vertical
stand and the earphone was a separate piece connected by a wire and
supported by a hook. To use the phone, you would pick up the stand, take the
earphone unit off the hook and put it to your ear, and hold the microphone
to your mouth. Removing the weight of the earphone from the hook would let
the hook rise, closing the circuit: what I know of colloquially as "picking
up the phone" and technically as putting it "off-hook".

Given those terms, "ringing off the hook" is easy to derive: figuratively,
the telephone is ringing so much, it's so excited, that the receiver is
jumping off the hook by itself.


-- Mark Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun  1 17:39:45 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 10:39:45 -0700
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <D300AAD4-B372-11D8-A6B6-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.103945.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

i've been struggling to understand wilson gray's responses to those of
us (most recently, jonathon green and me) who reject the acronymic
etymology for "phat".  wilson's most recent reply to me has the key, i
think.

On May 31, 2004, at 7:24 PM, Wilson Gray wrote:

(from an earlier posting of wilson's)

>>> ..."Phat" is actually a  modification of "phatt," which is
>>> initial-slang
>>> meaning "Pussy, Hips, Ass, Thighs, Tits." This term dates back to at
>>> least 1950, when its meaning and use were described to me by a
>>> cousin visiting Saint Louis, my home town, from New York City. Its
>>> original use was to describe a good-looking girl or woman, as in,
>>> e.g. "That chick is phatt!"...

here the claims are that the *original* use of "phat(t)" was with
respect to women, and that this use derived from an acronym.  pretty
much everyone is deeply suspicious of acronymic derivations for
everyday (non-technical, non-jargon) vocabulary, but the deeper problem
is that the best an ordinary speaker of some variety can do is say that
such and such an expression was in use in that variety at such and such
a time with such and such a meaning; such a speaker can't possibly have
knowledge of the history of the expression.  (though this speaker might
well have access to community stories about history -- more on this
below.)

so, what we had at this point is a report that "phat(t)" was in use in
some black communities (specifically, in new york city) ca. 1950 to
describe good-looking females.  this is data, and as good as any
recollective report is; i'm not trying to impugn it.

i do wish we had a bit *more* information, though.  the reporter,
wilson tells us, was a thirteen-year-old girl describing not her own
speech but the speech of males (presumably, somewhat older teenagers)
in the community.  this is relevant because wilson's cousin might have
been reporting metadata (information about what these guys said they
said, rather than observations about what they said), and because her
information might have been incomplete: these guys might have been
using "phat(t)" to refer to things and situations in addition to
good-looking females.  or maybe not; we just can't be sure, since a
report that expression E has use U is not a report that E has *only*
use U.

in any case, wilson's cousin couldn't actually have *known* what the
original meaning and derivation of the word were.  note that although
i'm incredibly suspicious of the derivation, i'm not saying that the
claim about original meaning is implausible.  the word could well have
extended from a 'good-looking female' sense to other spheres of
excellence; such generalizations of evaluative vocabulary are
commonplace.  the problem is that we just don't know the history of the
word's meanings in this particular community.

as a side note, i have to point out that word histories often take
different paths in different communities.  this effect is very striking
in the explorations of innovative evaluative adjectives ("w(h)ack" and
its relatives) i've been making recently.  so, though i'm looking
forward to hearing from margaret lee about way "phat" was used by her
and her friends in central virginia in the 50s and 60s, that doesn't
necessarily bear on how it was used by young black men in new york city
in this period.  i wish it did; dialectology would be *so* much easier
if changes were global, affecting entire large communities in the same
way -- but they aren't.

wilson's latest posting (replying to margaret lee), just in, brings up
another complication: we can't even be sure that the uses reported in
the 50s are continuous with the very widespread use of "phat" today.
re-inventions and resuscitations of rare usages are both attested in
the literature on historical change (for instance, in the history of
the form "themself"), so that without further evidence we don't know
whether the current usages are actually continuations of either of the
usages reported here.

> In 1950, my cousin and I were both thirteen years old. I really doubt
> that she would have been sophisticated enough at that age to have made
> up this derivation.

of course not.  she got it from someone else.

> And, given that adults are extremely unlikely to be aware of the
> slanguage used by children on the street, especially in the 'Fifties,
> I doubt that some well- or ill-meaning adult took her aside and
> explained it to her.

of course not.  but young people do talk about these things to one
another.

> I conclude, therefore, that the definition - not hypothesis - that she
> gave was a genuine one from the streets of New York City.

this is the crucial point, the thing i just didn't get until this
morning.  wilson is saying that his cousin offered Pussy Hips Ass
Thighs Tits as the *definition* of "phatt" (not merely an account of
its history).  in what follows, again the claim of definition:

> Note also that my cousin spelled and defined "phatt" and not "phat"...

since wilson is treating what his cousin said as an unmediated account
of the word's meaning, he is understandably outraged that jonathon
green and i, two white guys, should be claiming to know more about
black varieties of english than he and his cousin do.

but the cousin's report is metadata.  getting ordinary speakers to
"define" words is a frustrating business, as we all know.  it's hard to
know what to make of these explicit accounts of meaning.  definition by
exemplar is incredibly common; on the urbandictionary site, you have
people defining "ghey" in terms of exemplars (definition: "gay" --
Viktor.  example sentence: "Viktor is really ghey").  in general, these
definitions are often much more specific than the definer's actual
usage, or much more general.

and ordinary people's definitions frequently embody the etymological
fallacy: the "real meaning" of a word is its (purported) historical
origin.  i have, in fact, had people tell me that the *real meaning* of
"fuck" is 'Found Under Carnal Knowledge', and that the *real meaning*
of "news" is "North East West South", and many similar things.  these
people believed that their actual uses of these words followed in some
way from their "true meanings".  what they're reporting is some more or
less explicit theory of the word's meaning, not reflections on the way
they use the word tacitly.

ordinary people are just dreadful at giving definitions of the sort a
linguist or lexicographer is interested in.  even when they give
definitions of the right sort, what they say isn't necessarily an
accurate account of their actual usage, which has to be discovered by
examining what they say in what contexts.  metadata isn't useless; it's
an interesting phenomenon in its own right, as dInIs, for example,
would be the first to tell you.  but it isn't dependable information
about the usage of words -- about what words mean for particular
speakers, about how often they're pronounced one way or another, about
who uses them, and so on.

even words with concrete meanings are problematic for ordinary people
to define.  but words with meanings that have a significant social or
discourse component to them -- evaluative words and discourse
particles, for example -- are especially hard for people to report on
accurately (no matter how earnestly they try).

what i'm saying is that wilson's cousin was no better than most people
at defining words, so that that her report can't be taken as an
accurate description of usage in her community.  i don't claim to have
*any* knowledge about that usage.  i claim only that her report doesn't
give us nearly as much information as we'd like about that usage.

one final twist in this story.  there's a powerful effect that could
give rise to a situation in which some speakers actually do use
"phat(t)" *only* with reference to good-looking females, *regardless*
of the history of the item.  sometimes, Believing Makes It So
(equivalently, Belief Trumps Truth).

the effect is easy to see in taboo avoidance: once "cock" 'rooster' is
connected to "cock" 'penis', or american "ass" 'donkey' to "ass"
'buttocks, anus', no amount of protestation on the part of mere
linguists armed with the history of these words is going to persuade
people that they're really different words.  they're the same word
because we believe they are.

and once people develop the theory that women use the higher range of
their voice pitch much more than men do, no amount of protestation on
the part of mere phoneticians studying american english prosody is
going to prevent people from judging the use of the higher end of the
range as "feminine" (especially in men).  it counts as feminine because
we believe it does.

to get back to "phat": once the acronymic account gets about in a
community, then it can, in effect, become the truth.  whatever range of
meanings the word might have had before, people might trim their use of
the word to make it conform to this theory.  (or might not; people are
often willing to tolerate vast gulfs between their explicit theories
and their actual behavior.)

goodness knows what actually went on in various black communities over
the past 50+ years.  what we know now is essentially only that a
homophone of "fat" has had various special senses/uses in different
communities at different times.  this isn't nothing, but for a
sociolinguist it isn't much.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun  1 18:22:20 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 14:22:20 -0400
Subject: Off the wall
In-Reply-To: <200406011019.1bvcUS1NI3NZFjK0@condor>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.142220.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 1, 2004, at 1:19 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Off the wall
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson Gray <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET> says
>
>>>>
> There are two different "off the hooks," so to speak. The fishing one
> has to do primarily with getting out of a tight. (In BE, it's not
> necessary to add "spot" or some such after "tight"). "The note from my
> wife got me off the hook." The other, hip-hop one is derived from
> phrases like, "The telephone has been ringing _off the hook_ all day"
> because something really important is happening and you need to know
> about it, so you can get the hook-up.
>         <<<
>
> "Hook-up" has nothing to do with it -- maybe you were just adding that
> as a
> decorative fillip, but it's not clear to me. "Ringing off the hook"
> long
> antedates hip-hop and the modern social sense of "hook-up".
>
> "On-hook" and "off-hook" are states of the telephone circuit. Normally
> it's
> on hook = hung up, not in use, ready to receive a call. When you pick
> up the
> receiver it's off hook.
>
> I know these as technical terms, but I am assuming that they derive
> from a
> period when the part of the telephone that one picked up was literally
> supported by a hook when not in use. If I recall correctly, that
> accurately
> describes the old upright sets (before my day, but familiar from
> cartoons
> and antique stores) in which the microphone was at the top of a
> vertical
> stand and the earphone was a separate piece connected by a wire and
> supported by a hook. To use the phone, you would pick up the stand,
> take the
> earphone unit off the hook and put it to your ear, and hold the
> microphone
> to your mouth. Removing the weight of the earphone from the hook would
> let
> the hook rise, closing the circuit: what I know of colloquially as
> "picking
> up the phone" and technically as putting it "off-hook".
>
> Given those terms, "ringing off the hook" is easy to derive:
> figuratively,
> the telephone is ringing so much, it's so excited, that the receiver is
> jumping off the hook by itself.
>
>
> -- Mark Mandel
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

Indeed. In fact, being a senior citizen, I well remember using the kind
of telephone that you describe, assuming that, by "microphone." you
mean "mouthpiece." It wasn't necessary to pick up the whole telephone,
unless that was your personal style of using one. You just took the
earpiece off the hook, put it to your ear, and spoke into the
mouthpiece, while sitting or standing.
I assume that you're not familiar with the movie, "The Hook-Up," given
that this is a hip-hop movie about telephones. In fact, the movie's
protagonist uses the phrase, "I got the hook-up," as the slogan for his
business of selling cellular telephones that had "fallen off a truck."
And weren't we discussing only the fact that the derivation of  "off
the hook" in hip-hop slang is different from the derivation of the
standard English locution "(get) off the hook"? I was, in any case.

-Wilson Gray


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Tue Jun  1 19:20:55 2004
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (Allen D. Maberry)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:20:55 -0700
Subject: hybrid expression?
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.122055.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yesterday, on the evening edition of NPR's Marketplace, there was a story about the economic hardships faced by some California towns due to the huge deployment of US troops. At one point the reporter made the statement "They've got paychecks they're itchin' to burn." I've never heard this expression before and I first thought that it might be a blend of the cliches "itchin' to spend" and "burning a hole in one's pocket". Or alternatively, that in this case ("burn" might mean "spend") like the expression "blow one's paycheck on s.t." (although I've never heard "burn one's paycheck").  Has anyone else encountered this expression?

allen


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Jun  1 20:52:28 2004
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 16:52:28 -0400
Subject: She's my bro
In-Reply-To: <1085773368.40b796384da03@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.165228.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have to agree with Sam Clements -- this looks like an original to
me.  I see nothing in our files that duplicates it in any way.   I have
heard of an all-female theatrical troupe that calls itself "Five
Lesbian Brothers," but "brothers" in this context is a different word
entirely -- it's not the shortened form "bro,"  its reference is
particular rather than generic (and is intended to be surprising), and
it has a gender-bending connotation, whereas De Garmo's use of
"bro" de-genders the word and seems to imply that it's generic.

In other words, the evidence M-W has collected so far suggests
that "bro" and "brother" as applied to women are nonce-uses.

Joanne


Joanne M. Despres, Senior Editor
Merriam-Webster, Inc.
jdespres at merriam-webster.com
http://www.merriam-webster.com


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun  1 21:27:58 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 17:27:58 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <200406010915.1bvbVa39b3NZFjV0@sparrow>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.172758.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've only recently become familiar with John Green's work, just today,
as a matter of fact. But I have long been familiar with Arnold Zwicky
and his work, for more than a quarter-century, at least. In any case,
had I not the least idea as to who either of these scholars was, the
mere fact that they are posting to this list would be sufficient to
prevent me from assuming that I was dealing with a couple of dimbulbs.
My point is merely that it is not impossible that "phat(t)" could be
initial slang derived exactly as my cousin said. Perhaps I've totally
misunderstood them, but Messrs. Green and Zwicky appear to wish to say
that such an origin is, if not totally impossible, at least _very_
highly unlikely, because people very rarely know the origin of slang
terms. Hence, my suggested origin is empty of content. I don't agree
with that.
The supposed counter-examples are words of standard English, irrelevant
in a discussion of the slang of a sub-culture or are trivial
modifications of the originally-suggested derivation, such as might be
expected to arise over the course of a half-century, whereas the
meaning of "phat(t)" has remained the same. A further counter-argument
is that initial slang tends to arise only in social environments
dominated by the majority, i.e. white, super-culture. [I do not impute
to Prof. Zwicky in any way any kind of racist or racial perspective;
it's merely a fact about the social environments that he used as
examples.] Is Prof. Zwicky able to prove this assertion or is this just
the way he feels about or, perhaps, the only situation with which he
has intimate familiarity?
Wrt to familiarity, I'm familiar with the "joke" about the anatomy of
Asian women. However, I didn't hear it until I was 23 years old and in
the Army, serving in a unit consisting of approximately 800 white
G.I.'s and exactly two black G.I.'s. There was also a "joke" about
having to take your "anti-Slant-Eye pills," if you were white and about
to be shipped out to Japan or Korea. That is, being black, I was
sufficiently insulated by Jim Crow from white people and their
race-based "humor" that I was a grown man before I heard a "joke" that
Prof. Zwicky heard before he had reached puberty.
It would also be interesting to the origin of your "plethora of
examples." And it seems to me to a logical assumption that when a slang
term originates, there are at least two people who know where it came
from: the person who invents it and the first person that he tells it
to.
Consider this. In the Saint Louis sub-dialect of Black English, the
noun "bear" has the extended meaning, "an ugly woman or girl," Its
origin was fully known fifty years ago. In 1951 or so, there was a very
popular song called "Cupid's Boogie," featuring an "argument" between a
man and a woman. The man sings, "You ought to be ought in the forest,
fightin' a big old grizzly bear!" She answers, "But I'm a lady!" And
the man says, "They got lady bears out there." Almost immediately, it
began to be said of an unattractive girl or woman, e.g. "She must be
one of those lady bears they was talkin' about." From examples such as
that, "bear" came to have the slang meaning, "ugly woman." I was in
Saint Louis last year. "Bear" can still mean "ugly woman," but only
"old heads" over sixty-five have any idea how that came about. "Young
peppers" give you guesses such as the fact that a bear is a big, scary
animal. You then ask them why it should refer only to women and not to
men and they give you a blank stare. In another decade or so, all of us
old heads will dead and "bear = ugly woman" will simply be a slang
usage of unknown origin peculiar to blacks living in Saint Louis.
Since women don't invent slang or even know how to use it properly a
lot of the time (e.g., my wife had the impression that "fuckin' A!"
meant "what the hell?!" and not "damned right!"), I'm sure that my
cousin must have (over) heard the word and its putative definition from
some guy.

-Wilson Gray



On Jun 1, 2004, at 12:15 PM, Baker, John wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>         This is extremely interesting information.  It shows that
> phat(t) was in use over 50 years ago, and that the acronymic etymology
> is quite old.  What it does not tell us is whether phat(t) actually
> originated as an acronym (though of course the age of the acronymic
> etymology is evidence in that direction).  After all, we know that
> pumpernickel does not derive from "C'est bon pour Nichol," even though
> that explanation accompanies the first use of "pumpernickel" in
> English.  Unless your cousin or one of her acquaintances actually
> coined "phatt," then her account is not going to be definitive.
>
>         Jonathon Green and Arnold Zwicky may not be black (I'm
> guessing that they're not), but they're two of the most knowledgeable
> posters on ADS-L.  In any case, I think there is a plethora of
> examples to show that ordinary users of terms typically don't
> understand the terms' derivations.
>
> John Baker
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Wilson Gray
> Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 10:25 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
>
>
> In 1950, my cousin and I were both thirteen years old. I really doubt
> that she would have been sophisticated enough at that age to have made
> up this derivation. And, given that adults are extremely unlikely to be
> aware of the slanguage used by children on the street, especially in
> the 'Fifties, I doubt that some well- or ill-meaning adult took her
> aside and explained it to her. I conclude, therefore, that the
> definition - not hypothesis - that she gave was a genuine one from the
> streets of New York City. Note also that my cousin spelled and defined
> "phatt" and not "phat" and that this occurred more than five decades
> ago. A whole lot of water has gone under that temporal bridge. It's
> also the case that, until the advent of hip-hop slang, no form of this
> word was used anywhere that I've ever lived - Texas, Missouri,
> California, Massachuseetts, Pennsylvania - by anyone of any race or
> social class or age group. Even my cousin didn't use the word, except
> for that one time, when she was clearly trying to gross out her hick
> cousin from the sticks by using language reserved for the use of males.
> Hence, it was a hapax legomenon for me prior to coming of hip-hop. The
> rest of your argument re acronymic derivation, given that "fuck" is not
> slang but standard English, is irrevelant. Besides, Arnold, you're
> white and I'll bet that  you've never had any occasion whatsoever to
> live among or come to know intimately black people. I, on the other
> hand, am black and, naturally, have always lived among black people,
> except for the time that I spent at M.I.T., back in the day. An
> argument based on what is typical with respect to whites won't map onto
> what is typical among blacks.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Jun  1 22:39:40 2004
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 15:39:40 -0700
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.153940.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Finally, "fuck" is a standard English word with cognates in Dutch and
>German and not slang.
>Wilson Gray

There is a young man at our school who takes great pride in his last name --Ficken.  Even tho he doesn't take German, he knows what it means.

Fritz Juengling


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Jun  1 22:51:33 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 18:51:33 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.185133.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I would have thought that we've seen enough etymythologies on this list, without any special need to seek them out, but, since you ask, I'll cite some.  Perhaps it's not quite a plethora, but here are a few examples of mostly inaccurate etymologies from Snopes.com.  These include both standard and slang terms.

http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/acronyms.htm
http://www.snopes.com/language/offense/offense.htm
http://www.snopes.com/language/stories/stories.htm

        A key seems to be that the subject term is perceived as nonstandard, though the perception is often mistaken.  No one is surprised that a core English word like "father," say, is derived from Old English "faeder," meaning "father."  Folk etymologies emerge for slang words like "cop" (not really from "constable on patrol"), pseudo-slang like "fuck," and standard words that have somehow come under a cloud, like "picnic."

        The coiner of a term does, of course, know its derivation.  At some point, the term's users lose the connection with the origin.  That may happen relatively quickly, or, as with your "bear" example, the derivation may linger because a large number of people connect the term to its origin.  Regardless of the amount of time taken, though, if the term lasts then at some point most of its users will not know its origin.  Nevertheless, they may believe that they do know the origin.

        I can't speak for Jonathan or Arnold (who are, in any case, eminently capable of speaking for themselves), but I don't think that your suggested origin is empty of content.  I think it's evidence, interesting in its own right, and there is even some possibility that it may be accurate.  (It's certainly more plausible than some of the suggested origins of other terms that have been seriously put forth on this list.)  But the mere fact that someone told your cousin that this was the origin of "phatt" is far from conclusive.

John Baker


From OneCachet at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  2 00:41:08 2004
From: OneCachet at AOL.COM (Your Name)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 20:41:08 EDT
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.204108.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/1/2004 3:51:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes:
pseudo-slang like "fuck,"
Is pseudo-slang itself slang?

Ike Royer


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun  2 01:12:11 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 21:12:11 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <200406011532.1bvhNU2jq3NZFjX0@robin>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.211211.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

He's in good company. The Harvard College Library holds titles by
Johann Wilhelm F?ck, Erhard Fucke, Arthur Fuckel, Friedrich Fuckel,
G.F. Alexander Fuckel, and Leopold Fuckel.

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 1, 2004, at 6:39 PM, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       FRITZ JUENGLING <juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> Finally, "fuck" is a standard English word with cognates in Dutch and
>> German and not slang.
>> Wilson Gray
>
> There is a young man at our school who takes great pride in his last
> name --Ficken.  Even tho he doesn't take German, he knows what it
> means.
>
> Fritz Juengling
>


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun  2 02:46:13 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 22:46:13 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <200406011551.1bvi6G4sc3NZFmR0@bunting>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.224613.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you for bringing these sites to my attention. The kinds of folk
etymologies that you supply are completely foreign to my experience.
I've read about them, of course, but I've never heard anything of this
type proposed by any black person, with the sole exceptions of
"phat(t)" and "mot," meaning "member of the tribe." (I've read
somewhere or other that "mot" is also or originally Jewish slang.
Interesting.) The closest that I can come to anything like these are
locutions like "HNIC" and "HNOD,"which are always spelled out and never
pronounced. Their meanings are, respectively, "head nigger in charge"
and "head nigger on duty."  And there's also BYB/BYOB, meaning "bring
your (own) bottle," and KYPIYP "keep your peter in your pants" and some
others. These are likewise always spelled out and never pronounced.
Since I first heard these when I was in grade school in the 'Forties
and have never in my life met any black person who was unfamiliar with
them, I'm probably safe in assuming they are universally known among
black Americans. Well, among men, at least. Women, for some reason,
never seem to be a source of slang and screw it up when they try to use
it. E.g., a girl I knew back in the day would always hypercorrect "lay
dead" = "relax/kick back at home by oneself, hang around the house
doing nothing in particular," to "play dead."
This is just a stab in the dark, but my guess is that, given that all
of us blacks know that our dialect is itself non-standard, we have no
motivation to perceive non-standardness as something that needs to be
dealt with.
FWIW, now that I think about it, the hypercorrection of "lay dead" to
"play dead" could be understood as an instance of folk etymology.

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 1, 2004, at 6:51 PM, Baker, John wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>         I would have thought that we've seen enough etymythologies on
> this list, without any special need to seek them out, but, since you
> ask, I'll cite some.  Perhaps it's not quite a plethora, but here are
> a few examples of mostly inaccurate etymologies from Snopes.com.
> These include both standard and slang terms.
>
> http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/acronyms.htm
> http://www.snopes.com/language/offense/offense.htm
> http://www.snopes.com/language/stories/stories.htm
>
>         A key seems to be that the subject term is perceived as
> nonstandard, though the perception is often mistaken.  No one is
> surprised that a core English word like "father," say, is derived from
> Old English "faeder," meaning "father."  Folk etymologies emerge for
> slang words like "cop" (not really from "constable on patrol"),
> pseudo-slang like "fuck," and standard words that have somehow come
> under a cloud, like "picnic."
>
>         The coiner of a term does, of course, know its derivation.  At
> some point, the term's users lose the connection with the origin.
> That may happen relatively quickly, or, as with your "bear" example,
> the derivation may linger because a large number of people connect the
> term to its origin.  Regardless of the amount of time taken, though,
> if the term lasts then at some point most of its users will not know
> its origin.  Nevertheless, they may believe that they do know the
> origin.
>
>         I can't speak for Jonathan or Arnold (who are, in any case,
> eminently capable of speaking for themselves), but I don't think that
> your suggested origin is empty of content.  I think it's evidence,
> interesting in its own right, and there is even some possibility that
> it may be accurate.  (It's certainly more plausible than some of the
> suggested origins of other terms that have been seriously put forth on
> this list.)  But the mere fact that someone told your cousin that this
> was the origin of "phatt" is far from conclusive.
>
> John Baker
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  2 03:09:52 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 23:09:52 EDT
Subject: "Trains run on time" (1923)
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.230952.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TRAINS RUN ON TIME--10,800 Google hits, 7,790 Google Groups hits

Through all this runs the difficult issue of lustration--how and whether ti
bar from power personnel of an ousted evil regime.  On the one hand, you don't
want to reward tyrants with power; on the other, you'd like to see the trains
run on time.
--Michael Barone in the NEW YORK SUN, 1 June 2004, pg. 9, col. 3.


   This is a classic line about dictatorship.  You want Amtrak to be on time?
 Thing again!   It's not worth it!
   Snopes.com (below) gives the names of people who used this expression, but
they probably didn't coin it.


(GOOGLE)
Urban Legends Reference Pages: History (Loco Motive)
Loco Motive. Click here. Claim: Italian dictator Benito Mussolini made
the trains run on time. Status: False. Origins: Every political ...
www.snopes.com/history/govern/trains.htm - 10k - Cached - Similar pages
The myth of Mussolini's punctual trains lives on, albeit with a different
slant: rather than serving as a fictitious symbol of the benefits of fascism, it
is now offered as a sardonic example that something good can result even from
the worst of circumstances. As Montagu and Darling wrote:
>
> Mussolini may have done many brutal and tyrannical things; he may have
> destroyed human freedom in Italy; he may have murdered and tortured citizens whose
> only crime was to oppose Mussolini; but 'one had to admit' one thing about
> the Dictator: he 'made the trains run on time.'
>


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Make the trains run on time?
... Bollocks. Ever since, the phrase "Mussolini made the trains run on time"
meant that sort of draconian attempt to force your will on people. ...
alt.folklore.urban - Oct 24, 1997 by mitcho - View Thread (9 articles)

Giuliani makes the trains run on time (Fascism in New York)
Giuliani Makes The Trains Run On Time by Robert Lederman Flushed with victory
after
crushing the economic aspirations of 30,000 transit workers New York City ...

alt.music.rage-machine - Dec 17, 1999 by EXVandals - View Thread (1 article)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    Punctuality Marking Train Service in Italy
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 10, 1923. p. 8 (1
page):
   Rome, July 20.--The spirit of discipline which the Mussolini government
brought in with it is no more concretely illustrated than on the railroads and
in the telegraph service of Italy.  Italian trains are now run on time--one can
even set one's watch by them--and the time of transmission on internal and
foreign telegrams has been reduced to one-fourth of what it was before the
advent of Italy's young fictator to power.

    SPREADING FASCISM
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 9, 1925. p.
A4 (1 page) :
   The situation before the Fascist government came into power almost
amounted to a negation of government; there was, ine might say, no government and no
law. (...) Trains did not run on time or did not run at all;...

    ITALY FOUND PROSPERING; Bevani Tells City Club Mussolini Has Wrought Many
Benefits, But Freedom Gone
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 22, 1927. p.
A2 (1 page):
   There are no beggars in all Italy, he found, the railroads, under military
control, tun on time and the trains are clean, municipal government has been
entirely abolished and there are no elections, mayors or councils, prices for
all of the necessities of life are regulated by the dictator to prevent
profiteering, there is no crime wave, everywhere there is great demonstration of
force and compulsion, the papers are lacking in tales of robberies, hold-ups and
similar crimes, tipping is discouraged and there is practically no night life.

    What Women are Doing
MYRA NYE. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 10,
1928. p. A6 (1 page) :
   "Because Italy has been galvanized into action a new Italy is arising,"
said (Paul--ed.) Harvey.  "And because business is good, trains run on time,
hotels and food are better, and there are no unemployed. the traveler, who gets
only a superficial report, says that conditions in Italy are good."

     AMERICANS IN ITALY.
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jun 24, 1928. p. 10 (1
page) :
   Italians liberals remark sarcastically upon the complaisancy not to say
admiring approval shown by American travelers in Italy toward the Fascist
regime.  All they say, protest the liberals bitterly, is that the trains run on
time.
   We must admit the American traaveler's approval of the regime of Fascism
tends to be rather selfish and superficial.  It does please him that trains run
on schedule and are clean and comfortable, and he dismisses rather lightly
the Italian liberals' objections, though they are founded on principles an
American is supposed to accept as "self-evident."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Decatur Daily Review - 7/13/1923
...telegraph of ITALY. Italian TRAINS now RUN ON TIME ONe can even set ONes
wntch.....be dispONdent. ITALIAN TRAINS ON GOOD TIME [By tha Associated Prrss]
Home..
Decatur, Illinois Friday, July 13, 1923  714 k

Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune - 7/24/1923
...of ITALY. Italian TRAINS are now RUN ON TIME ONe can even set ONes
watch.....Mrs. JaspersON will 'visit here for a TIME AND Miss GRUNdeen, who has
been..
Wisconsin Rapids, Wisconsin Tuesday, July 24, 1923  823 k

Morning Call - 9/14/1929
...has made Italian railroad TRAINS RUN ON TIME. But for these
material.....thought of by all except ITALY, AND ITALY has not been permitted to think..
Laurel, Mississippi Saturday, September 14, 1929  458 k

Lima News - 12/5/1930
...almost legendary Fascist TRAINS which RUN ON TIME. Rumor has it that
the.....There is an ever-growing rumor in ITALY that Costanzo Ciano. Count, of is..
Lima, Ohio Friday, December 05, 1930  761 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  2 06:50:55 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 02:50:55 EDT
Subject: Make no small plans (1921); Rich is Better (1937); Bronx Cheer &
 Razzberries
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.025055.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MAKE NO SMALL PLANS

   I took another look (using the newly digitized Chicago Tribune) at "make
no small plans" or "make no little plans," allegedly said by Chicago's
legendary architect Daniel Burnham.  There's nothing early that I can see.  I also
looked for "think big."


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Our Greatest Man, in Two Stately Volumes
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 6, 1921. p. F1 (2
pages)
Second page (Pg. 10):
   "Make no little plans; they have no magic to stir men's blood. . . . Aim
high in hope and work, remembering that a noble, logical fiagram once recorded
will never die. . . . Let your watchword be order and your beacon beauty."
(II., 147.)
(_The Wit and Wisdom of Daniel Burnham_, from the new biography by Charles
Moore--ed.)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Iowa City Press Citizen - 10/4/1921
...on my typewriter. Hei it is: "MAKE NO SMALL PLANS they have NO magic to
stu.....explo-jlaie to catch-thc tricksiers. SMALL TOWNS AND FARMS "What Cheer..
Iowa City, Iowa Tuesday, October 04, 1921  767 k

Wichita Daily Times - 7/27/1922
...at my machine. Here it Is: "MAKE NO SMALL PLANS they have NO magic to
stir.....evidence of growth should enlarge and MAKE more plain and possible of..
Wichita Falls, Texas Thursday, July 27, 1922  542 k

Soda Springs Chieftain - 8/7/1930
...of the world, uttered these "MAKE NO LITTLE PLANS they have NO to ktlr
men's.....themselves will NOt be realised. MAKE big PLANS. Remember' that our
sons..
Soda Springs, Idaho Thursday, August 07, 1930  813 k

Denton Journal - 9/7/1935
...its planned bcautification: "MAKE NO LITTLE PLANS; they have NO magic to
stir.....is the duty of the patrol." MAKE NO LITTLE PLANS There are many towns
and..
Denton, Maryland Saturday, September 07, 1935  838 k

Lima News - 3/3/1938
...this inspirng sentiment: "MAKE NO LITTLE PLANS; they hare NO magic to
stir.....and your beacon beauty." The LITTLE PLANS are important, but MAKE them..
Lima, Ohio Thursday, March 03, 1938  829 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
RICH IS BETTER

RICH IS BETTER--2,110 Google hits, 1,170 Google Groups hits

   "I've been poor and I've been rich.  Rich is better."
   This line is frequently attributed to both Joe E. Lewis and Sophie Tucker.
 I thought the Chicago Tribune would have something.  It didn't, but this is
pretty good.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
The Post's New Yorker
By LEONARD LYONS. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 12,
1937. p. 13 (1 page) :
   At the Tavern Mrs. George S. Kaufman urges a noted theatrical figure to
accept the movie offers being tendered him.  "Listen, and take my advice," she
urges.  "Don't overlook the money part of it.  I've been poor and I've been
rich.  Rich is better!"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BRONX CHEER

   Another "Bronx cheer," through Chicago.  See ADS-L archives for this and
the following term.
   I worked only 8:30 a.m.-7:30 p.m. today in a room with no air in the
Bronx...Thanks for not pointing out the typing mistakes in the last post.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
HEARKEN TO BECKETT
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Feb 10, 1923. p. 13 (1
page) :
   _"Bronx Cheer" for Joe._
   New York, Feb. 9.--(Special.)--Reports from London that Joe beckett had
made the announcement that he had signed articles to meet Jack Dempsey in New
York next July or August for the world's title evoked little more than guffaws
in local fight circles today.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
RAZZBERRIES

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Display Ad 1 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 1, 1917. p. 2 (1 page)
:
(Victor Records--ed.)
The Darktown Strutters' Ball--Fox Trot--Six Brown Bros.
Razzberries--One-Step--Van Eps Trio...75c


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Jun  2 06:53:49 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 23:53:49 -0700
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F23B61F1@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.JUN.2004.235349.0700.>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Baker, John
> Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 9:15 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
>
>
>         This is extremely interesting information.  It shows that
> phat(t) was in use over 50 years ago, and that the acronymic
> etymology is quite old.  What it does not tell us is whether
> phat(t) actually originated as an acronym (though of course the
> age of the acronymic etymology is evidence in that direction).
> After all, we know that pumpernickel does not derive from "C'est
> bon pour Nichol," even though that explanation accompanies the
> first use of "pumpernickel" in English.  Unless your cousin or
> one of her acquaintances actually coined "phatt," then her
> account is not going to be definitive.

The age of the acronymic explanation is irrelevant to the etymology. All it
shows is that this particular origin story is 50 years old. It tells us
nothing about the ultimate truth of the story. Such stories can survive for
extraordinary periods of time even if demonstrably proven to be untrue
(e.g., "Windy City"). Factoids and urban legends have lives independent of
whether or not they are true.

I would say the evidence is strongly against the acronymic origin of
"phat(t)." First, acronyming is simply not a productive pattern of
non-technical word formation. People just don't create ordinary words in
this fashion. Second, the "ph" for "f" spelling is a productive slang form.
Another example of this is "phreak." Third, "fat" has a centuries old
history of meaning lush or desirable.

Also for the record, the OED has a citation of "pumpernickel" dating back to
the mid-18th century, long before Napoleon or the "c'est bon pour Nichol"
story.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Jun  2 11:07:06 2004
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 04:07:06 -0700
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <OCEFKEEBCCDKPHIMICJGCEJFCJAA.dave@wilton.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.040706.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You must also consider the fact that a significant aspect of BE is its use as a "disguise" language, going back to slavery when the enslaved Africans created means of communicating among themselves without the slave master knowing what they were saying, often talking about him in his presence. Some of these were words with double, multiple or opposite meanings. I think  black acronyms fit this description, especially "phat", no doubt used covertly by males without females understanding the meaning (at least initially).
I can't remember specifically how I learned about 'phat' in the late 50's and early '60's in Virginia,  but females were very familar with its use and meaning, knowing that males used it to refer to a female who was "stacked."

Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET> wrote:
"phat(t)." First, acronyming is simply not a productive pattern of
non-technical word formation. People just don't create ordinary words in
this fashion.

Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Professor of English & Linguistics
  and University Editor
Department of English
Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home)
margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu   or   mlee303 at yahoo.com

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends.  Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Jun  2 12:12:30 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 08:12:30 -0400
Subject: off the wall
In-Reply-To: <20040602040411.F3CBA2286E@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.081230.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray writes:
        >>>

I assume that you're not familiar with the movie, "The Hook-Up," given
that this is a hip-hop movie about telephones. In fact, the movie's
protagonist uses the phrase, "I got the hook-up," as the slogan for his
business of selling cellular telephones that had "fallen off a truck."

        <<<

Indeed, I am not. Perhaps if you had mentioned it I would have gotten your
point.

        >>>

And weren't we discussing only the fact that the derivation of  "off
the hook" in hip-hop slang is different from the derivation of the
standard English locution "(get) off the hook"? I was, in any case.

        <<<

On this list, as on others I subscribe to, conversation flows in many
directions. It isn't always easy to see, or to guess, which of the possible
or apparent directions of a particular post is the one the writer intended,
and that's assuming that s/he meant only one, which is not a safe
assumption.


-- Mark A. Mandel, Research Administrator
   Information Extraction from the Biomedical Literature
   University of Pennsylvania


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Wed Jun  2 12:27:44 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 08:27:44 -0400
Subject: hybrid expression?
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.082744.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    "Allen D. Maberry" <maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

: Yesterday, on the evening edition of NPR's Marketplace, there was a
: story about the economic hardships faced by some California towns due
: to the huge deployment of US troops. At one point the reporter made
: the statement "They've got paychecks they're itchin' to burn." I've
: never heard this expression before and I first thought that it might
: be a blend of the cliches "itchin' to spend" and "burning a hole in
: one's pocket". Or alternatively, that in this case ("burn" might mean
: "spend") like the expression "blow one's paycheck on s.t." (although
: I've never heard "burn one's paycheck").  Has anyone else encountered
: this expression?

I don't know if this is a hybrid of two phrases as much as a combination of
two idiomatic single *words*, actually: "itchin'" meaning "desiring" and
"burn" meaning "waste, spend profligately".

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Jun  2 13:23:40 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 06:23:40 -0700
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <20040602110706.75697.qmail@web41510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.062340.0700.>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Margaret Lee
> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 4:07 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
>
>
> You must also consider the fact that a significant aspect of BE
> is its use as a "disguise" language, going back to slavery when
> the enslaved Africans created means of communicating among
> themselves without the slave master knowing what they were
> saying, often talking about him in his presence. Some of these
> were words with double, multiple or opposite meanings. I think
> black acronyms fit this description, especially "phat", no doubt
> used covertly by males without females understanding the meaning
> (at least initially).
> I can't remember specifically how I learned about 'phat' in the
> late 50's and early '60's in Virginia,  but females were very
> familar with its use and meaning, knowing that males used it to
> refer to a female who was "stacked."

I don't believe that anyone is arguing about the meaning of the word; I
certainly am not. That "phat" is used to describe a sexually attractive
woman is beyond dispute.

The question is whether or not it formed as an acronym or whether the
acronym explanation arose later. Do you have other examples of BE words
formed from acronyms? Is acronyming a productive source of non-technical
terms in BE?

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Jun  2 13:26:05 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 09:26:05 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.092605.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        And once again, Barry just can't get any respect!  As he posted on 5/1/02, a fuller version of the 1756 OED cite is:  "The people of the country call it _Pompernickel_ (OED STOPS HERE!!--ed.), which is only a corruption of a _French_ name given it by a gentleman of that nation, who passed through this country.  It is reported, that when this coarse bread was brought to table, hye looked at it and said, _Qu'il etoit bon pour_ Nickel, _That it was good for_ Nickel, which was the name of his horse.  Those, however, who are used to it, are strong and robust..."

        I disagree with the claim that the age of an explanation is irrelevant to its actual etymology.  I believe that there is good reason to think that the oldest exlanations are the most significant and the most likely to be accurate, though of course there are many examples, of which "pumpernickel" is one, where even an extremely early explanation is simply wrong.  The likelihood of an explanation's survival is an entirely different matter, one that seemingly has no relationship to the explanation's accuracy, unless it is a negative one.

        I don't really want to be in the position of defending an acronymic origin of "phat(t)."  However, what do you make of "snafu," which is known to have an acronymic origin?  (Can anyone think of any other nontechnical terms - not initialisms like "TGIF" -  that have acronymic origins?)

John Baker


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Jun  2 13:39:41 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 09:39:41 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.093941.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        "Pseudo-slang" was just a made-up term I used to refer to words like "fuck" that are frequently denigrated as slang but are not in fact slang.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Your Name
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 8:41 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]


In a message dated 6/1/2004 3:51:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
JMB at STRADLEY.COM writes:
pseudo-slang like "fuck,"
Is pseudo-slang itself slang?

Ike Royer


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Wed Jun  2 14:36:48 2004
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 15:36:48 +0100
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <E1BVVy3-0001Fa-Cp@julia.zen.co.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.153648.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
>         "Pseudo-slang" was just a made-up term I used to refer to words
> like "fuck" that are frequently denigrated as slang but are not in fact
> slang.
>
> John Baker
>

If I might throw in another ten penn'orth/cents: I don't think, with
respect to John Baker,  that _fuck_, and other taboo terms that started
off life as mainstream (if not exactly 'standard') English but by c.1700
were considered off-limits, are so much 'pseudo-slang' which to me, at
least, implies a degree of deliberate contrivance, but slang 'faut de
mieux'. Excluded from polite use (although the cites never stop coming)
and mainstream lexicography they remained in the wider lexis, but found
themselves 'rescued', at least as far as dictionaries are concerned, by
the slang lexicographers. (Indeed I'm not sure that _fuck_ appears in any
mainstream dict. other than Florio's Italian-English _World of Words_
(1598), where it translates 'fottere'). Not that all of them found such
inclusion that comfortable, thus Francis Grose's notation in The Classical
Dict. of the Vulgar Tongue (1785):  'F--k, to copulate', not to mention
'C--t, a nasty word for a nasty thing'. And my predecessor Eric Partridge,
at least in the earlier editions of a book that first appeared in 1937,
also had recourse to hyphens. (Though his predecessors, Farmer & Henley
[1890-1904], spelt everything out).

I would suggest that slang lexicgraphers still see _fuck_ and its taboo
kin as 'theirs.' And as genuine slang. Although such terms are beginning
to appear in mainstream lexica. ('Motherfucker', for instance, receives
extensive coverage in the online edition of the OED - labelled as 'coarse
slang'). Certainly I could not imagine excluding such words from any
dictionary of mine, and Jonathan Lighter certainly has them in the HDAS.
And the combinations thereof - see Jesse's magisterial 'F-Word' - are
surely slang and nothing else.

Phat: More anecdotal evidence. My elder son - 26, white, big hiphop fan
since back in the day - has just appeared in a tracksuit jacket emblazoned
with the word Phat (it is made by the clothing firm Phat Farm, which sell,
for lack of a better description, 'hip-hop fashions.') Offered the idea
that the word is an acronym he offered me a dismssive snort. He goes for
'fat', mis-spelt. As I say, strictly anecdotal. Not to mention British.

Jonathon Green


From Tpconroy at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  2 14:37:52 2004
From: Tpconroy at AOL.COM (Tom Conroy)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:37:52 EDT
Subject: eponymous album
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.103752.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm a writer working on a story for "Tracks" magazine about the commonly used
record-review word "eponymous." It is used, in a usage objected to by most
music copy editors, as a means of avoiding the repetition of the band's name
when referring to an album whose title is the band's name (e.g., Iron Maiden's
"Iron Maiden," which most rock critics would style as Iron Maiden's eponymous
album).

I was wondering if anyone has access to a data base (or could direct me to a
data base) where one could search for early citations of "eponymous album" and
"eponymous LP" (as well as the variations "self-titled album" and
"self-titled LP").

>From my own experience as a copy editor, I know the usage goes back at least
to 1983.

I found a discussion of "self-titled" in the ADS archive, but I was able to
access only two records.

I can also be reached by phone at 973-313-1475 if anyone would prefer
discussing the topic by phone.

Thank you for your attention.

Tom Conroy


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Jun  2 14:52:13 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:52:13 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <opr8y1jma5i28g2m@green>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.105213.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 03:36:48PM +0100, Jonathon Green wrote:
> >
> >        "Pseudo-slang" was just a made-up term I used to refer to words
> >like "fuck" that are frequently denigrated as slang but are not in fact
> >slang.
> >
> >John Baker

Let me interject something that Mr. Green was too modest to
mention in his post, namely that his name is "Jonathon", no
"Jonathan" or "John" as some recent messages have had it.

> If I might throw in another ten penn'orth/cents: I don't think, with
> respect to John Baker,  that _fuck_, and other taboo terms that started
> off life as mainstream (if not exactly 'standard') English but by c.1700
> were considered off-limits, are so much 'pseudo-slang' which to me, at
> least, implies a degree of deliberate contrivance, but slang 'faut de
> mieux'. Excluded from polite use (although the cites never stop coming)
> and mainstream lexicography they remained in the wider lexis, but found
> themselves 'rescued', at least as far as dictionaries are concerned, by
> the slang lexicographers. (Indeed I'm not sure that _fuck_ appears in any
> mainstream dict. other than Florio's Italian-English _World of Words_
> (1598), where it translates 'fottere').

Do you mean used in definition text? It's hard to imagine "fuck"
being used in definition text for any non-recent dictionary, and
not in very many recent ones either.

But in terms of _fuck_ being itself defined, there were indeed
a number of dictionaries that included it (Bailey's _Universal
Etymological English Dictionary_ and _Dictionarium
Britannicum_ among the more prominent ones); Allan Walker Read
discusses this in some detail in his 1934 _American Speech_
article. The latest until the modern era was the 1795 second
edition of John Ash's _New and Complete Dictionary of the
English Language_.

I also agree that "fuck" is slang, and not pseudo-slang; we've
discussed this before.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Wed Jun  2 15:19:06 2004
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:19:06 +0100
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <E1BVX6F-0004kE-Qk@hausdorff.zen.co.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.161906.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No, I didn't mean definition text. I was thinking headwords, and was too
lazy - and too busy dismebowelling the slang citations from a 1953 book
thrillingly subtitled 'Teenagers trapped in waterfront vice!' - to start
checking properly. Jesse is of course right. Although having now checked
the 1737 edn. of Bailey's UEED, I can't actually find 'fuck' therein,
neither in the main text, nor in the Canting addendum, which is generally
seen as coming from the New Canting Dict. of 1725. It is, however, in the
1755 edition, defined coyly as 'foeminam subagitare'. This is the main
text - the addendum had by now been dropped. And while Ash certainly used
it, so too did the Revs. Samuel Johnson and  John Elliott, in their
Selected Pronouncing and Accented Dictionary, published in the US in 1800;
or at least they included _foutra_ 'a low, vulgar word', whiuch inclusion
brought no little criticism, which they attempted to defer by blaming Ash
(in whose work they admitted they had found it - and then had blithely
copied it into their own).

Jonathon Green


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Wed Jun  2 15:15:54 2004
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:15:54 +0100
Subject: Folk etymologies
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.161554.0100.>

A subscriber recently queried my dismissal of the much-repeated story
that the phrase "cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey"
came from the brass frames on Royal Navy sailing ships on which the
pyramids of iron shot were placed. He said, in effect, that I must be
wrong, because he recently saw such a frame in a museum in Hong Kong.

As an article about the expression is included in my book on popular
etymology that is to be published by Penguin in the UK on 1 July, I
was intrigued and a little concerned. So I contacted the museum. A
helpful curator has today e-mailed me a photograph of the display.
Beside a cannon is a pile of shot in what indeed looks like a brass
frame. However, she confirms that it's actually made of stained wood,
and was constructed by the museum's designer three years ago to keep
the shot in place on the exhibit.

That was a near-run thing. Now I must sort out this chap who swears
that he, his father and his grandfather have all actually used "POSH"
as an insider's codeword to persuade pursers to give them cabins on
the cooler sides of ships ...

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Jun  2 15:15:31 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 11:15:31 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.111531.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I think that the last time around, the majority view, which I found convincing, was that words such as "fuck" were not in fact slang.  Consider the AHD4 definition of "slang":

        <<NOUN: 1. A kind of language occurring chiefly in casual and playful speech, made up typically of short-lived coinages and figures of speech that are deliberately used in place of standard terms for added raciness, humor, irreverence, or other effect. 2. Language peculiar to a group; argot or jargon: thieves' slang.>>

        "Fuck" doesn't really fit either of these definitions, even though AHD4 and other dictionaries do label it as slang.

        I do agree with Jonathon that he should consider it within his purview.  It is part of "the vulgar tongue," and readers expect to find such terms in a dictionary of slang.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Jesse Sheidlower
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 10:52 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]


I also agree that "fuck" is slang, and not pseudo-slang; we've
discussed this before.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Jun  2 16:05:18 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 12:05:18 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F23B61F6@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.120518.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 11:15:31AM -0400, Baker, John wrote:

>         I think that the last time around, the majority
> view, which I found convincing, was that words such as
> "fuck" were not in fact slang.  Consider the AHD4 definition
> of "slang":
>
>         <<NOUN: 1. A kind of language occurring chiefly in
> casual and playful speech, made up typically of short-lived
> coinages and figures of speech that are deliberately used in
> place of standard terms for added raciness, humor,
> irreverence, or other effect. 2. Language peculiar to a
> group; argot or jargon: thieves' slang.>>
>
>         "Fuck" doesn't really fit either of these
> definitions, even though AHD4 and other dictionaries do
> label it as slang.

It doesn't fit? I do think that "fuck" occurs chiefly in
casual speech and is deliberately used for added raciness or
irreverence or other effect. The purportedly "short-lived"
nature of slang is something I've always thought is wrong, but
since AHD modifies it with "typically" we can ignore it here.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun  2 17:56:59 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:56:59 -0700
Subject: shero
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.105659.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

today's Fresh Air had a long interview with Donna Brazill (Al Gore's
campaign manager in 2000).  interesting sociolinguistically, since
she's a public and powerful woman who's preserved lots of features of
informal southern AAVE: piles of -in', medial glottal stop in "sudden"
as well as "didn't", the occasional unmarked 3rd sg present, etc.
stunning contrast to, say, Condi Rice.

along the way, she talked about the "heroes and sheroes" of the civil
rights movement.  "shero" isn't in our archives (though some of you
might already have collected it).  there are a fair number of shero
sites on the web -- feminist, african american, often both.  a small
sample:

Sistapower - Shero - Highlighting an African American Shero
(http://www.sistapower.com/shero.htm)

My Shero: Mature Lesbians Making a Difference
(http://www.classicdykes.com/sheroes.htm)

Who is YOUR Shero?
(http://www.girlsinitiativenetwork.org/shero.htm)

Black Women Today - Shero of the Week
(http://www.tbwt.com/blackwomentoday/shero.asp)

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Jun  2 18:00:13 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 14:00:13 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.140013.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        But it's not used in place of a standard term.

        MW11 has a different definition, which does not include the "in place of a standard term" concept but apparently would not include "fuck" either:  "an informal nonstandard vocabulary composed typically of coinages, arbitrarily changed words, and extravagant, forced, or facetious figures of speech."

        To round out the popular shorter dictionaries (I'm at the office and don't have the OED or Webster's Third handy), here's Webster's New World College Dictionary 4th:  "highly informal speech that is outside conventional or standard usage and consists both of coined words and phrases and of new or extended meanings attached to established terms:  slang develops from the attempt to find fresh and vigorous, colorful, pungent, or humorous expression, and generally either passes into disuse or comes to have a more formal status."  Again, that wouldn't include "fuck."

John Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Jesse Sheidlower
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 12:05 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]


On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 11:15:31AM -0400, Baker, John wrote:

>         I think that the last time around, the majority
> view, which I found convincing, was that words such as
> "fuck" were not in fact slang.  Consider the AHD4 definition
> of "slang":
>
>         <<NOUN: 1. A kind of language occurring chiefly in
> casual and playful speech, made up typically of short-lived
> coinages and figures of speech that are deliberately used in
> place of standard terms for added raciness, humor,
> irreverence, or other effect. 2. Language peculiar to a
> group; argot or jargon: thieves' slang.>>
>
>         "Fuck" doesn't really fit either of these
> definitions, even though AHD4 and other dictionaries do
> label it as slang.

It doesn't fit? I do think that "fuck" occurs chiefly in
casual speech and is deliberately used for added raciness or
irreverence or other effect. The purportedly "short-lived"
nature of slang is something I've always thought is wrong, but
since AHD modifies it with "typically" we can ignore it here.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun  2 20:00:15 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 13:00:15 -0700
Subject: british vs. north american englishes
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.130015.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

a colleague asks if there is "a good overview work comparing British
and North American Englishes".  assuming that this colleague is
interested in the standard varieties, and in all aspects
(pronunciation, grammar, orthography, lexicon), and wants something
short, i've recommended chs. 2-4 of trudgill & hannah (2002), the 4th
ed. of International English.

any other suggestions?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun  2 20:11:27 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:11:27 -0400
Subject: off the wall
In-Reply-To: <200406020512.1bvuBGMc3NZFkl0@cockatoo>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.161127.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Had I been able to predict the kind of response that my message would
elicit from you, I would have made a greater effort to clarify my
remarks. Unfortunately, I could not. Therefore, I ask only that you
accept my sincerest apologies. I regret the error.
On the other hand, I found your remarks re telephony quite informative.

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 2, 2004, at 8:12 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: off the wall
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson Gray writes:
>>>>
>
> I assume that you're not familiar with the movie, "The Hook-Up," given
> that this is a hip-hop movie about telephones. In fact, the movie's
> protagonist uses the phrase, "I got the hook-up," as the slogan for his
> business of selling cellular telephones that had "fallen off a truck."
>
>         <<<
>
> Indeed, I am not. Perhaps if you had mentioned it I would have gotten
> your
> point.
>
>>>>
>
> And weren't we discussing only the fact that the derivation of  "off
> the hook" in hip-hop slang is different from the derivation of the
> standard English locution "(get) off the hook"? I was, in any case.
>
>         <<<
>
> On this list, as on others I subscribe to, conversation flows in many
> directions. It isn't always easy to see, or to guess, which of the
> possible
> or apparent directions of a particular post is the one the writer
> intended,
> and that's assuming that s/he meant only one, which is not a safe
> assumption.
>
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel, Research Administrator
>    Information Extraction from the Biomedical Literature
>    University of Pennsylvania
>


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun  2 20:12:00 2004
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:12:00 -0400
Subject: british vs. north american englishes
In-Reply-To: <76C2FA86-B4CF-11D8-A2D8-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.161200.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>any other suggestions?

There are a few pp. of interest in Gunnel Tottie's _Intro to American
English_ (Blackwell).

Bethany


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Wed Jun  2 20:12:56 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:12:56 -0400
Subject: british vs. north american englishes
In-Reply-To: <200406022000.ATB99838@mirapointmr2.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.161256.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 04:00 PM 6/2/2004, you wrote:
>a colleague asks if there is "a good overview work comparing British
>and North American Englishes".  assuming that this colleague is
>interested in the standard varieties, and in all aspects
>(pronunciation, grammar, orthography, lexicon), and wants something
>short, i've recommended chs. 2-4 of trudgill & hannah (2002), the 4th
>ed. of International English.
>
>any other suggestions?

Despite the title there is a good deal of information in the following book
contrasting the two languages/dialects:

American English
by Zoltan Kovecses
Paperback: 250 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.75 x 8.75 x 6.00
Publisher: Broadview Press; 1st edition (September 26, 2000)
ISBN: 1551112299

Geoff


From orinkh at CARR.ORG  Wed Jun  2 20:27:54 2004
From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:27:54 -0400
Subject: british vs. north american englishes
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.162754.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>a colleague asks if there is "a good overview work comparing British
>and North American Englishes".  assuming that this colleague is
>interested in the standard varieties, and in all aspects
>(pronunciation, grammar, orthography, lexicon), and wants something
>short, i've recommended chs. 2-4 of trudgill & hannah (2002), the 4th
>ed. of International English.
>
>any other suggestions?
>
If I might cast all modesty aside, may I recommend to your colleague my own
book on the subject?

Mighty Fine Words and Smashing Expressions
Hardcover: 320 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.09 x 9.62 x 6.28
Publisher: Oxford University Press (New York); (December 2002)
ISBN: 0195157044

I should warn that it does not treat pronunciation. Orthography is treated in
the first chapter, Grammar in the second, and the other chapters (9 plus
appendices) deal thematically with the lexicon. The book mainly contrasts
British and American English; some other dialects are treated cursorily in an
appendix.

Orin Hargraves


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Jun  2 21:02:46 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:02:46 -0400
Subject: American vs. European Date formats (Modified by Grant Barrett)
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.170246.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Speaking of British vs. American, this query from a visitor to the ADS
web site needs answering. Anyone? Please respond to the original
querent and the list.

......

Hi,

Sorry for the interruption but I have question which I can't really
find the answer for in any definitive way. Most of the world uses the
date forum month/day/year but the United States uses day/month/year.
The only reason I can think why this is so, is down to dialect. People
in the US will say I was born on March 12, 1984 (for example) whereas I
would say it "I was born on the 12th of March, 1984".

Can you point me to any historical references or ideas as to why we
differ in our speech in this way.

Thank you

Alan O'Flaherty
oflaherty at o2.ie


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Jun  2 21:36:22 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:36:22 -0400
Subject: shero
In-Reply-To: <3EDC3D32-B4BE-11D8-A2D8-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.173622.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is a great word!

At 10:56 AM 6/2/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>today's Fresh Air had a long interview with Donna Brazill (Al Gore's
>campaign manager in 2000).  interesting sociolinguistically, since
>she's a public and powerful woman who's preserved lots of features of
>informal southern AAVE: piles of -in', medial glottal stop in "sudden"
>as well as "didn't", the occasional unmarked 3rd sg present, etc.
>stunning contrast to, say, Condi Rice.
>
>along the way, she talked about the "heroes and sheroes" of the civil
>rights movement.  "shero" isn't in our archives (though some of you
>might already have collected it).  there are a fair number of shero
>sites on the web -- feminist, african american, often both.  a small
>sample:
>
>Sistapower - Shero - Highlighting an African American Shero
>(http://www.sistapower.com/shero.htm)
>
>My Shero: Mature Lesbians Making a Difference
>(http://www.classicdykes.com/sheroes.htm)
>
>Who is YOUR Shero?
>(http://www.girlsinitiativenetwork.org/shero.htm)
>
>Black Women Today - Shero of the Week
>(http://www.tbwt.com/blackwomentoday/shero.asp)
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Jun  2 21:49:52 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:49:52 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <0321D521-B43F-11D8-88C8-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.174952.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At least she didn't hypercorrect to "lie dead," right?!

At 10:46 PM 6/1/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Thank you for bringing these sites to my attention. The kinds of folk
>etymologies that you supply are completely foreign to my experience.
>I've read about them, of course, but I've never heard anything of this
>type proposed by any black person, with the sole exceptions of
>"phat(t)" and "mot," meaning "member of the tribe." (I've read
>somewhere or other that "mot" is also or originally Jewish slang.
>Interesting.) The closest that I can come to anything like these are
>locutions like "HNIC" and "HNOD,"which are always spelled out and never
>pronounced. Their meanings are, respectively, "head nigger in charge"
>and "head nigger on duty."  And there's also BYB/BYOB, meaning "bring
>your (own) bottle," and KYPIYP "keep your peter in your pants" and some
>others. These are likewise always spelled out and never pronounced.
>Since I first heard these when I was in grade school in the 'Forties
>and have never in my life met any black person who was unfamiliar with
>them, I'm probably safe in assuming they are universally known among
>black Americans. Well, among men, at least. Women, for some reason,
>never seem to be a source of slang and screw it up when they try to use
>it. E.g., a girl I knew back in the day would always hypercorrect "lay
>dead" = "relax/kick back at home by oneself, hang around the house
>doing nothing in particular," to "play dead."
>This is just a stab in the dark, but my guess is that, given that all
>of us blacks know that our dialect is itself non-standard, we have no
>motivation to perceive non-standardness as something that needs to be
>dealt with.
>FWIW, now that I think about it, the hypercorrection of "lay dead" to
>"play dead" could be understood as an instance of folk etymology.
>
>-Wilson Gray


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun  2 22:16:33 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 18:16:33 -0400
Subject: shero in re glottal stop
In-Reply-To: <200406021056.1bvzYV2gS3NZFl40@penguin>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.181633.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was born in Marshall, Texas (FWIW, George Foreman of Meineke-Muffler
fame, Y.A. Tittle, and Bill Moyers are also Marshallites) and grew up
in Saint Louis. In that day, (1937-1957) the glottal stop was not used
by BE speakers in either location. (I have no idea whether this feature
now currently occurs natively outside of the East Coast. I sincerely
hope not.) However, while in the Army in 1961, I became friends with a
linguistically-naive fellow BE speaker from North Carolina. I used to
amuse myself with him by asking, "David, why do you always use a
glottal stop?" He would invariably answer, to my great delight, "Man, I
don't use no glo?le stop!" [Well, maybe you had to have been there.]

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 2, 2004, at 1:56 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
> Subject:      shero
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> today's Fresh Air had a long interview with Donna Brazill (Al Gore's
> campaign manager in 2000).  interesting sociolinguistically, since
> she's a public and powerful woman who's preserved lots of features of
> informal southern AAVE: piles of -in', medial glottal stop in "sudden"
> as well as "didn't", the occasional unmarked 3rd sg present, etc.
> stunning contrast to, say, Condi Rice.
>
> along the way, she talked about the "heroes and sheroes" of the civil
> rights movement.  "shero" isn't in our archives (though some of you
> might already have collected it).  there are a fair number of shero
> sites on the web -- feminist, african american, often both.  a small
> sample:
>
> Sistapower - Shero - Highlighting an African American Shero
> (http://www.sistapower.com/shero.htm)
>
> My Shero: Mature Lesbians Making a Difference
> (http://www.classicdykes.com/sheroes.htm)
>
> Who is YOUR Shero?
> (http://www.girlsinitiativenetwork.org/shero.htm)
>
> Black Women Today - Shero of the Week
> (http://www.tbwt.com/blackwomentoday/shero.asp)
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Jun  2 22:26:00 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 18:26:00 -0400
Subject: New ADS server and primary email; new site TK
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.182600.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

All,

Please note that the ADS web site will be transitioning to a new server
over the next few days. It should be painless and invisible, but if you
have a glitch, please try again later. The web site address will remain
the same, http://www.americandialect.org/ . The old email archives
(pre-1999) will be offline while I get them accommodated to the new
server (something akin to buttering a cat's paws) and install better
searching tools. This should happen this weekend. The new archives,
post-1999, are still active and working, as they are graciously hosted
by LinguistList.

Great thanks go to Bill Kretzschmar and the gang at the Linguistics
Atlas Project at UGA for hosting the ADS site for the last few years.
It was a good deed. Thanks, too, to Eric Rochester for all his help
with technical issues.

Also, effective immediately, there is a new primary email address
associated with the American Dialect Society web site. It is now
webmaster at americandialect.org. The old address,
gbarrett at americandialect.org, is no longer active. I was tired of the
oodles of spam messages it sent me.

Finally, a new version of the ADS web site is in the works, and will
appear soonish. The committee has been hard at work.

Thanks,

Grant Barrett
ADS Webmaster
webmaster at americandialect.org


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Jun  2 22:32:19 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 15:32:19 -0700
Subject: New ADS server and primary email; new site TK
In-Reply-To: <D328C410-B4E3-11D8-A695-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.153219.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And I say, kudos to Grant for managing the web site for quite a number of
years, and now for buttering cats' paws and dealing with oodles o'
spam--all so that the rest of us can effortlessly enjoy this list.

Peter Mc.

--On Wednesday, June 2, 2004 6:26 PM -0400 Grant Barrett
<gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG> wrote:

> All,
>
> Please note that the ADS web site will be transitioning to a new server
> over the next few days. It should be painless and invisible, but if you
> have a glitch, please try again later. The web site address will remain
> the same, http://www.americandialect.org/ . The old email archives
> (pre-1999) will be offline while I get them accommodated to the new
> server (something akin to buttering a cat's paws) and install better
> searching tools. This should happen this weekend. The new archives,
> post-1999, are still active and working, as they are graciously hosted
> by LinguistList.
>
> Great thanks go to Bill Kretzschmar and the gang at the Linguistics
> Atlas Project at UGA for hosting the ADS site for the last few years.
> It was a good deed. Thanks, too, to Eric Rochester for all his help
> with technical issues.
>
> Also, effective immediately, there is a new primary email address
> associated with the American Dialect Society web site. It is now
> webmaster at americandialect.org. The old address,
> gbarrett at americandialect.org, is no longer active. I was tired of the
> oodles of spam messages it sent me.
>
> Finally, a new version of the ADS web site is in the works, and will
> appear soonish. The committee has been hard at work.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Grant Barrett
> ADS Webmaster
> webmaster at americandialect.org



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun  2 22:42:36 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 18:42:36 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <200406021452.1bvDES50E3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.184236.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Good one! That might actually have happened, given that she was the
daughter of a teacher who was prescriptive to the extent that she tried
to teach us to pronounce "peanut," i.e. "pea nut," as "peenit,"
supposedly more elegant. Not to mention that the family belonged to the
Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod. Gnome sane?

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 2, 2004, at 5:49 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At least she didn't hypercorrect to "lie dead," right?!
>
> At 10:46 PM 6/1/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>> Thank you for bringing these sites to my attention. The kinds of folk
>> etymologies that you supply are completely foreign to my experience.
>> I've read about them, of course, but I've never heard anything of this
>> type proposed by any black person, with the sole exceptions of
>> "phat(t)" and "mot," meaning "member of the tribe." (I've read
>> somewhere or other that "mot" is also or originally Jewish slang.
>> Interesting.) The closest that I can come to anything like these are
>> locutions like "HNIC" and "HNOD,"which are always spelled out and
>> never
>> pronounced. Their meanings are, respectively, "head nigger in charge"
>> and "head nigger on duty."  And there's also BYB/BYOB, meaning "bring
>> your (own) bottle," and KYPIYP "keep your peter in your pants" and
>> some
>> others. These are likewise always spelled out and never pronounced.
>> Since I first heard these when I was in grade school in the 'Forties
>> and have never in my life met any black person who was unfamiliar with
>> them, I'm probably safe in assuming they are universally known among
>> black Americans. Well, among men, at least. Women, for some reason,
>> never seem to be a source of slang and screw it up when they try to
>> use
>> it. E.g., a girl I knew back in the day would always hypercorrect "lay
>> dead" = "relax/kick back at home by oneself, hang around the house
>> doing nothing in particular," to "play dead."
>> This is just a stab in the dark, but my guess is that, given that all
>> of us blacks know that our dialect is itself non-standard, we have no
>> motivation to perceive non-standardness as something that needs to be
>> dealt with.
>> FWIW, now that I think about it, the hypercorrection of "lay dead" to
>> "play dead" could be understood as an instance of folk etymology.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Jun  2 23:29:32 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:29:32 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.192932.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

With reference to a side-track opened in the recent discussion of "phatt".

I have long had a copy of Wessely's Latin-English Dictionary, first published in the late 19th century, a pocket-sized affair undoubtedly for the use of students.  It defined "cunnus" as "cunt" -- a fact that made a sensation in my dorm room, in 1959.  I well remember one of my roomies saying in wonder "I've never seen that word in print!"  But that was the Eisenhower administration, an innocent era.  No doubt the word caused even greater astonishment during the McKinley administration.

Some years ago I made a gesture toward researching this publication, but did not see any way to determine the actual date of printing of my copy; and, as a cheaply made student's dictionary, it did not seem that many libraries owned it.  I was curious to know whether this definition was in all printings of the book, and if not, when it was added or dropped.  No doubt copies could be got cheaply through Bookfinder, et al, and checked for the word, perhaps dated by signatures?

I can't at the moment put my hand on my copy, but don't believe -- fervently hope -- that it is not lost.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Jun  2 23:32:30 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:32:30 -0400
Subject: New ADS server and primary email; new site TK
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.193230.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> And I say, kudos to Grant for managing the web site for quite a number of years, and now for buttering cats' paws and dealing with oodles o'spam--all so that the rest of us can effortlessly enjoy this list.
>
> Peter Mc.
>

Hear!  Hear!

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2004 6:32 pm
Subject: Re: New ADS server and primary email; new site TK
>
> *****************************************************************
> Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Jun  2 23:36:17 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:36:17 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <169dd7716a118d.16a118d169dd77@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.193617.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 07:29:32PM -0400, George Thompson wrote:
> With reference to a side-track opened in the recent discussion of "phatt".
>
>  I have long had a copy of Wessely's Latin-English
> Dictionary, first published in the late 19th century, a
> pocket-sized affair undoubtedly for the use of students.  It
> defined "cunnus" as "cunt"

I find this astonishing, absolutely astonishing.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From dave at WILTON.NET  Thu Jun  3 00:07:26 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:07:26 -0700
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F23B61F4@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.170726.0700.>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Baker, John
> Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 6:26 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]

>         I don't really want to be in the position of defending an
> acronymic origin of "phat(t)."  However, what do you make of
> "snafu," which is known to have an acronymic origin?  (Can anyone
> think of any other nontechnical terms - not initialisms like
> "TGIF" -  that have acronymic origins?)
>
> John Baker

Thanks for the complete citation of "pumpernickel." I missed Barry's earlier
email. I hope that when the OED3 gets around to P, they will include the
full quote in the citation. It's important given the popularity of the
Nichol story.

As to "snafu," there are two possible, and non mutually exclusive,
explanations. One is that it is simply an exception. It would be equally
astonishing if there were *no* non-technical words with acronymic origins.
But the point is that they are vanishingly rare. Given this, skepticism must
be applied to any non-technical acronymic word origin. An acronymic origin
for "phat(t)" is possible, but highly unlikely.

The other explanation is that "snafu," and its less well-known variants like
"tarfu," arose in the military--an environment given to coining technical
acronyms. In fact, the number of "snafu" variants that have come out of WWII
point to the conclusion that the coinages were a joke about the army's
penchant for acronyms.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Jun  3 00:58:56 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:58:56 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <OCEFKEEBCCDKPHIMICJGIEKBCJAA.dave@wilton.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.205856.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>(Can anyone
> > think of any other nontechnical terms - not initialisms like
> > "TGIF" -  that have acronymic origins?)

I guess it depends on what's labeled "technical". There's "awol", there's
"scuba", there's "moped" if you loosen up the definition of "acronym", some
more.

But there aren't too many in conventional use really.

I doubt that "snafu" is an 'honest' acronym etymologically (which would
require that there was a previously existing expression "situation normal
..."): likely the word was invented to imitate "snag", "snarl", etc., and
then assigned an expansion as an imaginary origin: but of course I could be
wrong again.

-- Doug Wilson


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Thu Jun  3 01:32:51 2004
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 18:32:51 -0700
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <200406022329.i52NTdNm277458@yipvmb.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.183251.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

George A. Thompson wrote in part:

>I have long had a copy of Wessely's Latin-English Dictionary, first
>published in the late 19th century, a pocket-sized affair
>undoubtedly for the use of students....
>Some years ago I made a gesture toward researching this publication,
>but did not see any way to determine the actual date of printing of
>my copy ...

Harvard's copy is unhelpfully cataloged with the date "[18-]".

Handy dictionary of the Latin and English languages. With an appendix
of Latin, geographical, historical, and mythological proper names.
Published :     Philadelphia, D. McKay, [18-].
Notes : On cover: Wessely.
Authors :       Wessely, I. E. (Ignaz Emanuel), 1841-1900.

It's not in the LOC, the University of California library system,
COPAC, nor in a few other catalogs I checked. Wessely compiled quite
a few other language dictionaries that are much more commonly held; I
wonder whether the scarcity of the Latin volume is related to its
naughty bit(s)?

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun  3 03:26:29 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 23:26:29 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <200406021832.1bvH6l5113NZFjV0@sparrow>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.232629.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 2, 2004, at 9:32 PM, John McChesney-Young wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       John McChesney-Young <panis at PACBELL.NET>
> Subject:      Re: dirty words in dictionaries
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> George A. Thompson wrote in part:
>
>> I have long had a copy of Wessely's Latin-English Dictionary, first
>> published in the late 19th century, a pocket-sized affair
>> undoubtedly for the use of students....
>> Some years ago I made a gesture toward researching this publication,
>> but did not see any way to determine the actual date of printing of
>> my copy ...
>
> Harvard's copy is unhelpfully cataloged with the date "[18-]".
>
> Handy dictionary of the Latin and English languages. With an appendix
> of Latin, geographical, historical, and mythological proper names.
> Published :     Philadelphia, D. McKay, [18-].
> Notes : On cover: Wessely.
> Authors :       Wessely, I. E. (Ignaz Emanuel), 1841-1900.
>
> It's not in the LOC, the University of California library system,
> COPAC, nor in a few other catalogs I checked. Wessely compiled quite
> a few other language dictionaries that are much more commonly held; I
> wonder whether the scarcity of the Latin volume is related to its
> naughty bit(s)?
>
> John
> --
>
>
> *** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
> California, U.S.A.  ***

As a long-time staff member of the Harvard College Library (the
official title of what is usually referred to and thought of as the
Harvard _University_ Library), I'd like to rise to its defense. When an
imprint is given in the form, [nn-] - [18-], in this case - it does not
mean that a library is being in any way "unhelpful." Rather, it means
that, after a search of the world's libraries, booksellers, and
publishers' catalogs, the best information available to the library is
only that a given book was published in a given century. Libraries
_always try_ to provide scholars with the information that they need.
Occasionally, they fail to do so, but only because that information is
simply not to be had.
Sometimes, you eat the bear; sometimes, the bear eats you.

-Wilson Gray
>


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun  3 03:40:55 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:40:55 -0700
Subject: American vs. European Date formats (Modified by Grant Barrett)
In-Reply-To: <000001c448bc$d5c7f740$0302a8c0@Alan>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.204055.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 2, 2004, at 2:02 PM, Grant Barrett wrote:

> Speaking of British vs. American, this query from a visitor to the ADS
> web site needs answering. Anyone? Please respond to the original
> querent and the list.
>
> ......
>
> Sorry for the interruption but I have question which I can't really
> find the answer for in any definitive way. Most of the world uses the
> date forum month/day/year but the United States uses day/month/year.
> The only reason I can think why this is so, is down to dialect. People
> in the US will say I was born on March 12, 1984 (for example) whereas
> I would say it "I was born on the 12th of March, 1984".

this is backwards (probably a simple typo); american usage is M/D/Y,
most of europe is D/M/Y, in other words in ascending order of units.  i
don't know the history, though both of these orders correspond to
possible orders in spoken english.  (and i leave aside the question of
how the numbers are separated orthographically: 9/11/01 or 9.11.01 or 9
11 01.)

in china (and, i think, much of asia) the notation is in descending
order of units: Y/M/D.  this order corresponds to the order
conventionally used in addresses (as a gross generalization: usually
descending in the east, ascending in the west).

but, like i said, i don't know the history.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From panis at PACBELL.NET  Thu Jun  3 03:47:21 2004
From: panis at PACBELL.NET (John McChesney-Young)
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 20:47:21 -0700
Subject: Library Catalog Information; was, Re: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <200406030326.i533QZH2003854@ylpvm06.prodigy.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.JUN.2004.204721.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had written:

>>  Harvard's copy is unhelpfully cataloged with the date "[18-]".

and Wilson Gray quite reasonably responded:

>When an
>imprint is given in the form, [nn-] - [18-], in this case - it does not
>mean that a library is being in any way "unhelpful."

I apologize for my unfortunate choice of adjective, which I'd
intended to have the sense of "unhelpful in the matter of the
question at hand." I had not *wanted* to suggest that the Harvard
catalogers themselves were being deliberately perverse or, well,
unhelpful, but rather that the information they provided to the best
of their ability didn't clear up the question of when in the century
the book in question was published.

However, I had some qualms about my choice of term and I applaud Mr.
Gray's spirited defense and appreciate the opportunity to make
clearer what I'd meant.

>Sometimes, you eat the bear; sometimes, the bear eats you.

I will give the next bear I meet the opportunity to do the latter, in penance.

John
--


*** John McChesney-Young  **  panis at pacbell.net  **   Berkeley,
California, U.S.A.  ***


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Jun  3 04:08:44 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 00:08:44 -0400
Subject: New ADS server and primary email; new site TK
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1086190339@[10.218.203.245]>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.000844.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry, but I can't take credit for managing the email list. It is
managed separately from the web site by Jesse Sheidlower and Terry
Irons, who, I concur, do a great job keeping the list trouble- and
spam-free.

Grant

On Jun 2, 2004, at 18:32, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> And I say, kudos to Grant for managing the web site for quite a number
> of
> years, and now for buttering cats' paws and dealing with oodles o'
> spam--all so that the rest of us can effortlessly enjoy this list.


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun  3 04:15:46 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 00:15:46 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <200406021759.1bvGzA4cR3NZFjX0@robin>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.001546.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 2, 2004, at 8:58 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> (Can anyone
>>> think of any other nontechnical terms - not initialisms like
>>> "TGIF" -  that have acronymic origins?)
>
> I guess it depends on what's labeled "technical". There's "awol",
> there's
> "scuba", there's "moped" if you loosen up the definition of "acronym",
> some
> more.
>
> But there aren't too many in conventional use really.
>
> I doubt that "snafu" is an 'honest' acronym etymologically (which would
> require that there was a previously existing expression "situation
> normal
> ..."): likely the word was invented to imitate "snag", "snarl", etc.,
> and
> then assigned an expansion as an imaginary origin: but of course I
> could be
> wrong again.
>
> -- Doug Wilson

FWIW, when I was in the Army, stationed at Andrews Barracks in what was
then West Berlin in the early 'Sixties, we enlisted men formed a
pseudo-fraternity called WGAF, pronounced "wegaf." The letters stood
for "We Give A Fuck," with the negative connotation. But those in
authority were told that this stood for "We Guard America's Freedom."
Hence, when a sergeant said, e.g. "I want five warm bodies for latrine
duty," we would chorus, "Wegaf, sergeant!", making it appear that we
were so gung-ho (often hypercorrected to "gun-ho") that we were eager
to do a job that "took the meat."

-Wilson Gray


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  3 04:25:10 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 00:25:10 EDT
Subject: "Sometimes you eat the bear..." (1904); "Tools of Ignorance"
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.002510.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SOMETIMES YOU EAT THE BEAR, AND SOMETIMES THE BEAR EATS YOU
   
(ADS-L)
Sometimes, you eat the bear; sometimes, the bear eats you.
-Wilson Gray
        
YOU EAT THE BEAR--1,530 Google hits, 4,870 Google Groups hits
BEAR EATS YOU--693 Google hits, 2,340 Google Groups hits
    
   Or, as Carole King used to sing. "sometimes you win, sometimes you lose."
   Where does this come from?  These searches aren't easy.  You can replace 
"eat" with "hunt" and "get."  It goes back at least 100 years.
    I don't know about Fred Shapiro's bear collection.
  
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Some Heartbreaks Are Relined
By JOHN S. RADOSTA Special to The New York Times. New York Times 
(1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 21, 1973. p. 93 (1 page) :
   DAYTONE BEACH, Fla., Feb. 28--"Some days you eat the bear," Bobby Allison 
was saying, "and some days the bear eats you. "
      
Hunting: Some Days You Eat the Bear, Some Days --
BY ANGUS PHILLIPS. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: 
Dec 7, 1979. p. W45 (1 page)    
      
       
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Indiana Democrat - 12/14/1904   
...SOMETIMES you bunt THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR hunts you and oace 
in.....him rope and turned off sideways. THE BEAR went to THE end of THE forty 
foot..
Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, December 14, 1904  828 k   
       
New Oxford Item - 1/13/1905     
...SOMETIMES you hunt THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR hunts and once in 
a.....At one end of THE cabin a brown BEAR paced ceaselessly to and fro with..
New Oxford, Pennsylvania Friday, January 13, 1905  619 k    
     
Walla Walla Union Bulletin - 5/31/1976  
...later put it, "SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you and SOMETIMES you eat THE
.....and he would have come out-loaded for BEAR. It would have been a heck of a..
Walla Walla, Washington Monday, May 31, 1976  651 k     
       
Lincoln Star - 5/31/1976    
...Indy INDIANAPOLIS (AP) "SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you and SOMETIMES you eat 
THE.....That's just THE way things work out SOMETIMES. "I feel sorry for A. 
J., but..
Lincoln, Nebraska Monday, May 31, 1976  599 k       
     
Frederick Post - 5/14/1984  
...YOU eat the BEAR, and sometimes the BEAR EATS YOU." Storm Davis, 
3-0.....Knights finished no lower than fifth. "YOU've got to have the numbers in 
order..
Frederick, Maryland Monday, May 14, 1984  766 k     
         
Mountain Democrat - 7/28/1989   
...SOMETIMES you eat THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you. THE BEAR
.....see THE shots people take on TV, and SOMETIMES it's tough to get up from..
Placerville, California Friday, July 28, 1989  516 k    
     
Chronicle Telegram - 12/12/1994     
...year, SOMETIMES you eat THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you. Today, 
THE.....THE Oilers. After taking THE brunt of THE criticism for THE loss 
against THE..
Elyria, Ohio Monday, December 12, 1994  663 k       
         
Mountain Democrat - 9/12/1997   
...HILLS SOME DAYS you eat THE BEAR SOME DAYS THE BEAR eats you. Monday THE 
Oak.....THE truth. It is true that THEre are SOME really fast runners out THEre 
who..
Placerville, California Friday, September 12, 1997  526 k   
  
Wellsboro Gazette - 5/26/1999   
...SOMETIMES you get THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR gets Mansfield 
coach.....one hit." THE only hit of THE game for THE Tigers came in THE bottom of THE
..
Wellsboro, Pennsylvania Wednesday, May 26, 1999  509 k      
     
Gettysburg Times - 2/3/2003     
...win. "SOMETIMES you eat THE BEAR and SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats said 
Hefner.....cut THE lead to 59-56 with left. Dana BEAR hit a runner in THE lane and THE
..

Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Monday, February 03, 2003  711 k       
      
    
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: David Clasky (dclasky at mail.mia.hellsouth.net)
Subject: "...eat the bear..." 
This is the only article in this thread     
View: Original Format   
Newsgroups: alt.quotations
Date: 1997/06/05 
    
In my signature file the quote "Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the 
bear eats you" is attributed to William Faulkner.  Many people have told me 
that the quote is from someone else, and they have given theories ranging from 
Joan Armatrading to Star Trek!  I've also heard it attributed to Stephen 
Stills.  I originally heard it from my father, who heard it from a drill sergeant 
in the army in 1956.  Thedrill sergeant never attributed it to anyone.  Does 
anyone out there know who said this?  Thanks.

DC-- 
********************************************************"
Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eatsyou." - William 
Faulkner
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TOOLS OF IGNORANCE
  
   I was going through Grant Barrett's wonderful site (a food word posted 
today is one that I'd previously posted here on ADS-L).  I like the term "tools 
of ignorance," but I can't beat the 1936 Newspaperarchive hit.
  
  
http://www.doubletongued.org
tools of ignorance n. a baseball catcher?s mask, shin guards, and chest 
padding. 
1936 Arcadia Tribune (Calif.) (May 2) ?Breadmen to Face Locals? p. 1: Leroy 
Zimmerman, star local high school graduate, will perform on the mound for the 
Corpe squad with Max Purcell donning the tools of ignorance to handle his 
slants. 2003 Vince Staten Why Is The Foul Pole Fair? (Apr. 1) p. 266: Bresnahan?s 
shin guards were the final pieces of the ?tools of ignorance,? that great 
descriptive phrase for the catcher?s equipment. There are conflicting stories 
about who came up with that wonderful monker: Some sources credit Herold ?Muddy? 
Ruel, a Senators catcher who caught for Walter Johnson and later became a 
lawyer. The more likely?and earlier?story, from the ?Diamond Jargon? column in 
the August 1939 issue of Baseball Magazine accepts Yankee catcher Bill Dickey 
as the true author. Dickey supposedly coined the term while donning his gear 
and brooding over why anyone would want to be a catcher in July heat. I like 
the Dickey story because it was published sixteen years before the Ruel claim. 
2004 [White] toolsOfIgnorance (Monrovia, Calif.) (May 14) ?Howdy?: The term ?
tools of ignorance? is my 2nd favorite baseball colloquialism. 

  
(WWW.PAPEROFRECORD.COM)
   8 August 1940, THE  SPORTING NEWS, pg. 2, col. 1:
  So, on his own suggestion, James Emory Foxx, the finest all-round player in 
baseball, donned the "tools of ignorance," as players refer to the chest 
protector, mask and big mitt, on July 31, and became first-string catcher of the 
Red Sox.
  
   6 April 1944, THE SPORTING NEWS, pg. 3, col. 1:
   "Players call the catcher's armor the 'tools of ignorance,'" Ferrell 
continued.  "Outfielders contend that no one in their senses would clutter 
themselves up with a mask, a heavy chest protector and weigh down their legs with shin 
guards.  All of this when the mercury is trying to climb out of the top of 
the tube, and those outfielders are on vacation, waiting for something to 
happen."

  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
THE SPORTS X-RAY
BOB RAY. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 27, 
1937. p. A11 (1 page) :
   Ball players call a catcher's paraphernalia "the tools of ignorance."  
Supposition is that a guy must be ignoranct ever to tackle such a tough job as 
catching.


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun  3 04:56:38 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 00:56:38 -0400
Subject: "Sometimes you eat the bear..." (1904); "Tools of Ignorance"
In-Reply-To: <200406022130.1bvJSd7rg3NZFji2@eagle>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.005638.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, I picked up the "bear" version from a buddy, Ivan Sag of the
Stanford CSLI. He may have some knowledge of its origin.

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 3, 2004, at 12:25 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      "Sometimes you eat the bear..." (1904); "Tools of
> Ignorance"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> SOMETIMES YOU EAT THE BEAR, AND SOMETIMES THE BEAR EATS YOU
>   =20
> (ADS-L)
> Sometimes, you eat the bear; sometimes, the bear eats you.
> -Wilson Gray
>        =20
> YOU EAT THE BEAR--1,530 Google hits, 4,870 Google Groups hits
> BEAR EATS YOU--693 Google hits, 2,340 Google Groups hits
>    =20
>    Or, as Carole King used to sing. "sometimes you win, sometimes you
> lose."
>    Where does this come from?  These searches aren't easy.  You can
> replace=20
> "eat" with "hunt" and "get."  It goes back at least 100 years.
>     I don't know about Fred Shapiro's bear collection.
>  =20
>  =20
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
> Some Heartbreaks Are Relined
> By JOHN S. RADOSTA Special to The New York Times. New York Times=20
> (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 21, 1973. p. 93 (1 page) :
>    DAYTONE BEACH, Fla., Feb. 28--"Some days you eat the bear," Bobby
> Allison=
> =20
> was saying, "and some days the bear eats you. "
>      =20
> Hunting: Some Days You Eat the Bear, Some Days --
> BY ANGUS PHILLIPS. The Washington Post (1974-Current file).
> Washington, D.C.=
> :=20
> Dec 7, 1979. p. W45 (1 page)   =20
>      =20
>       =20
> (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
> Indiana Democrat - 12/14/1904  =20
> ...SOMETIMES you bunt THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR hunts you and
> oace=20
> in.....him rope and turned off sideways. THE BEAR went to THE end of
> THE for=
> ty=20
> foot..
> Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, December 14, 1904  828 k  =20
>       =20
> New Oxford Item - 1/13/1905    =20
> ...SOMETIMES you hunt THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR hunts and once
> in=20
> a.....At one end of THE cabin a brown BEAR paced ceaselessly to and
> fro with=
> ..
> New Oxford, Pennsylvania Friday, January 13, 1905  619 k   =20
>     =20
> Walla Walla Union Bulletin - 5/31/1976 =20
> ...later put it, "SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you and SOMETIMES you eat THE
> .....and he would have come out-loaded for BEAR. It would have been a
> heck o=
> f a..
> Walla Walla, Washington Monday, May 31, 1976  651 k    =20
>       =20
> Lincoln Star - 5/31/1976   =20
> ...Indy INDIANAPOLIS (AP) "SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you and SOMETIMES
> you eat=
> =20
> THE.....That's just THE way things work out SOMETIMES. "I feel sorry
> for A.=20
> J., but..
> Lincoln, Nebraska Monday, May 31, 1976  599 k      =20
>     =20
> Frederick Post - 5/14/1984 =20
> ...YOU eat the BEAR, and sometimes the BEAR EATS YOU." Storm Davis,=20
> 3-0.....Knights finished no lower than fifth. "YOU've got to have the
> number=
> s in=20
> order..
> Frederick, Maryland Monday, May 14, 1984  766 k    =20
>         =20
> Mountain Democrat - 7/28/1989  =20
> ...SOMETIMES you eat THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you. THE
> BEAR
> .....see THE shots people take on TV, and SOMETIMES it's tough to get
> up fro=
> m..
> Placerville, California Friday, July 28, 1989  516 k   =20
>     =20
> Chronicle Telegram - 12/12/1994    =20
> ...year, SOMETIMES you eat THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you.
> Today,=
> =20
> THE.....THE Oilers. After taking THE brunt of THE criticism for THE
> loss=20
> against THE..
> Elyria, Ohio Monday, December 12, 1994  663 k      =20
>         =20
> Mountain Democrat - 9/12/1997  =20
> ...HILLS SOME DAYS you eat THE BEAR SOME DAYS THE BEAR eats you.
> Monday THE=20
> Oak.....THE truth. It is true that THEre are SOME really fast runners
> out TH=
> Ere=20
> who..
> Placerville, California Friday, September 12, 1997  526 k  =20
>  =20
> Wellsboro Gazette - 5/26/1999  =20
> ...SOMETIMES you get THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR gets Mansfield=20
> coach.....one hit." THE only hit of THE game for THE Tigers came in
> THE bott=
> om of THE
> ..
> Wellsboro, Pennsylvania Wednesday, May 26, 1999  509 k     =20
>     =20
> Gettysburg Times - 2/3/2003    =20
> ...win. "SOMETIMES you eat THE BEAR and SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats said=20
> Hefner.....cut THE lead to 59-56 with left. Dana BEAR hit a runner in
> THE la=
> ne and THE
> ..
>
> Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Monday, February 03, 2003  711 k      =20
>      =20
>    =20
> (GOOGLE GROUPS)
> From: David Clasky (dclasky at mail.mia.hellsouth.net)
> Subject: "...eat the bear..."=20
> This is the only article in this thread    =20
> View: Original Format  =20
> Newsgroups: alt.quotations
> Date: 1997/06/05=20
>    =20
> In my signature file the quote "Sometimes you eat the bear, and
> sometimes th=
> e=20
> bear eats you" is attributed to William Faulkner.  Many people have
> told me=20
> that the quote is from someone else, and they have given theories
> ranging fr=
> om=20
> Joan Armatrading to Star Trek!  I've also heard it attributed to
> Stephen=20
> Stills.  I originally heard it from my father, who heard it from a
> drill ser=
> geant=20
> in the army in 1956.  Thedrill sergeant never attributed it to anyone.
>  Does=
> =20
> anyone out there know who said this?  Thanks.
>
> DC--=20
> ********************************************************"
> Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eatsyou." -
> William=20
> Faulkner
>  =20
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----=
> --
> ---------------------------------------------
> TOOLS OF IGNORANCE
>  =20
>    I was going through Grant Barrett's wonderful site (a food word
> posted=20
> today is one that I'd previously posted here on ADS-L).  I like the
> term "to=
> ols=20
> of ignorance," but I can't beat the 1936 Newspaperarchive hit.
>  =20
>  =20
> http://www.doubletongued.org
> tools of ignorance n. a baseball catcher=E2=80=99s mask, shin guards,
> and ch=
> est=20
> padding.=20
> 1936 Arcadia Tribune (Calif.) (May 2) =E2=80=9CBreadmen to Face
> Locals=E2=
> =80=9D p. 1: Leroy=20
> Zimmerman, star local high school graduate, will perform on the mound
> for th=
> e=20
> Corpe squad with Max Purcell donning the tools of ignorance to handle
> his=20
> slants. 2003 Vince Staten Why Is The Foul Pole Fair? (Apr. 1) p. 266:
> Bresna=
> han=E2=80=99s=20
> shin guards were the final pieces of the =E2=80=9Ctools of
> ignorance,=E2=80=
> =9D that great=20
> descriptive phrase for the catcher=E2=80=99s equipment. There are
> conflictin=
> g stories=20
> about who came up with that wonderful monker: Some sources credit
> Herold=20=
> =E2=80=9CMuddy=E2=80=9D=20
> Ruel, a Senators catcher who caught for Walter Johnson and later
> became a=20
> lawyer. The more likely=E2=80=94and earlier=E2=80=94story, from the
> =E2=80=
> =9CDiamond Jargon=E2=80=9D column in=20
> the August 1939 issue of Baseball Magazine accepts Yankee catcher Bill
> Dicke=
> y=20
> as the true author. Dickey supposedly coined the term while donning
> his gear=
> =20
> and brooding over why anyone would want to be a catcher in July heat.
> I like=
> =20
> the Dickey story because it was published sixteen years before the
> Ruel clai=
> m.=20
> 2004 [White] toolsOfIgnorance (Monrovia, Calif.) (May 14)
> =E2=80=9CHowdy=E2=
> =80=9D: The term =E2=80=9C
> tools of ignorance=E2=80=9D is my 2nd favorite baseball
> colloquialism.=20
>
>  =20
> (WWW.PAPEROFRECORD.COM)
>    8 August 1940, THE  SPORTING NEWS, pg. 2, col. 1:
>   So, on his own suggestion, James Emory Foxx, the finest all-round
> player i=
> n=20
> baseball, donned the "tools of ignorance," as players refer to the
> chest=20
> protector, mask and big mitt, on July 31, and became first-string
> catcher of=
>  the=20
> Red Sox.
>  =20
>    6 April 1944, THE SPORTING NEWS, pg. 3, col. 1:
>    "Players call the catcher's armor the 'tools of ignorance,'"
> Ferrell=20
> continued.  "Outfielders contend that no one in their senses would
> clutter=20
> themselves up with a mask, a heavy chest protector and weigh down
> their legs=
>  with shin=20
> guards.  All of this when the mercury is trying to climb out of the
> top of=20
> the tube, and those outfielders are on vacation, waiting for something
> to=20
> happen."
>
>  =20
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
> THE SPORTS X-RAY
> BOB RAY. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.:
> Mar 27,=
> =20
> 1937. p. A11 (1 page) :
>    Ball players call a catcher's paraphernalia "the tools of
> ignorance." =20
> Supposition is that a guy must be ignoranct ever to tackle such a
> tough job=20=
> as=20
> catching.
>


From taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM  Thu Jun  3 08:08:24 2004
From: taylor-blake at NC.RR.COM (Bonnie Taylor-Blake)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 04:08:24 -0400
Subject: WGAF [was "phat/phatt"]
In-Reply-To: <200406030430.i534UPoW013493@ncmx03.mgw.rr.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.040824.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> ------------------- Information from the mail header -------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> FWIW, when I was in the Army, stationed at Andrews Barracks
> in what was
> then West Berlin in the early 'Sixties, we enlisted men formed a
> pseudo-fraternity called WGAF, pronounced "wegaf." The letters stood
> for "We Give A Fuck," with the negative connotation. But those in
> authority were told that this stood for "We Guard America's Freedom."
> Hence, when a sergeant said, e.g. "I want five warm bodies for latrine
> duty," we would chorus, "Wegaf, sergeant!", making it appear that we
> were so gung-ho (often hypercorrected to "gun-ho") that we were eager
> to do a job that "took the meat."


Wilson Gray's comment (thank you) reminds me of an anecdote involving
the rather sly use of "WGASA" (which is pronounced as "wagasa").  See
David Mikkelson's analysis of the San Diego Zoo's adoption of this
acronym,

<http://www.snopes.com/business/names/wgasa.asp>

-- Bonnie Taylor-Blake


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Thu Jun  3 11:52:21 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 07:52:21 -0400
Subject: shero
In-Reply-To: <20040603040450.B401322881@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.075221.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold sez:


today's Fresh Air had a long interview with Donna Brazill (Al Gore's
campaign manager in 2000).


For the record, she spells it "Brazile", or at least the NYT did in the 5/31
Books section interview. I was wondering how to pronounce it; Arnold's post
indicates /I/ and suggests final stress.


-- Mark A. Mandel


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Thu Jun  3 11:56:48 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 07:56:48 -0400
Subject: off the wall
In-Reply-To: <20040603040450.B401322881@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.075648.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET> replies to my comment:

        >>
Had I been able to predict the kind of response that my message would
elicit from you, I would have made a greater effort to clarify my
remarks. Unfortunately, I could not. Therefore, I ask only that you
accept my sincerest apologies. I regret the error.
        <<

Accepted, sir. <bow>

        >>
On the other hand, I found your remarks re telephony quite informative.
        <<

I'm glad they were helpful.

May I make a suggestion for your future reference? Given your quite
reasonable doubts about white people's familiarity with Black culture, I
found it not entirely consistent that you assumed that all the readers of
this list would be familiar with a hip-hop movie.

-- Mark A. Mandel, Research Administrator
   Information Extraction from the Biomedical Literature
   University of Pennsylvania


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Jun  3 12:25:26 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 08:25:26 EDT
Subject: "Pop-Pop" revisited
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.082526.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On  Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:29:26 -0600,   Joan Houston Hall
<jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU> wrote on the
Subject: "Re: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb"

>There's a nice map in Volume IV of DARE showing "pop-pop" to be found
>chiefly in PA, NJ, DE, MD.

and several other people (including myself) wrote in support of this
geographical distribution of "Pop-Pop" for "grandfather".

However, last night (June 2) the A&E cable network had a two-hour show, which
I taped,  on J. K. Rowling and the Harry Potter movies.  (Note:  the show
consistent had "Rowling" rhyme with "bowling", not "howling").  In the show
Richard Harris stated:

<quote>
My granddaughter called me and said, "Pop-Pop," she said, "If you don't play
Dumbledore, I will never speak to you again."
<end quote>

At least I heard it as "Pop-Pop", and I played the tape three or four times
to check.  Harris mumbled the title; it could have been "Papa" but that sounds
unlikely as a title for one's grandfather.

Two obvious hypotheses:
1)  "Pop-Pop" has a wider distribution than the DARE data suggests or
2)  Harris's granddaughter lives in the Middle Atlantic States

       - James A. Landau


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun  3 13:16:56 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:16:56 -0400
Subject: off the wall
In-Reply-To: <200406030457.1bvQQy7sI3NZFl40@penguin>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.091656.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 3, 2004, at 7:56 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: off the wall
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson Gray <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET> replies to my comment:
>
>>>
> Had I been able to predict the kind of response that my message would
> elicit from you, I would have made a greater effort to clarify my
> remarks. Unfortunately, I could not. Therefore, I ask only that you
> accept my sincerest apologies. I regret the error.
>         <<
>
> Accepted, sir. <bow>
>
>>>
> On the other hand, I found your remarks re telephony quite informative.
>         <<
>
> I'm glad they were helpful.
>
> May I make a suggestion for your future reference? Given your quite
> reasonable doubts about white people's familiarity with Black culture,
> I
> found it not entirely consistent that you assumed that all the readers
> of
> this list would be familiar with a hip-hop movie.
>
> -- Mark A. Mandel, Research Administrator
>    Information Extraction from the Biomedical Literature
>    University of Pennsylvania
>

Well, uh, actually, my underlying assumption re the movie, "I Got The
Hook-Up," was exactly the opposite: that no one here would be familiar
with it, given that the movie was made by blacks for blacks to suit
black taste. (The preceding puns on a radio advertisement from my
childhood, ca.1941: "Made by Americans for Americans to suit  American
taste! L.S.[pause]M.F.T.! Lucky Strike MEANS 'fine tobacco!'" [tobacco
auctioneer's chant ending with the phrase, "Sold, American!"]  A joke
of the day was that the Feds were investigating Lucky Strike because
they had heard that the company sold Americans. "American," in this
case, actually referred to the American Tobacco Co,)
I can only once again beg your indulgence, regarding the lack of
clarity in my postings.

-Wilson Gray


From jstearns at COMPACT.ORG  Thu Jun  3 13:34:03 2004
From: jstearns at COMPACT.ORG (Josh Stearns)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:34:03 -0400
Subject: Ivory tower
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.093403.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greetings,

I am looking for the etymology for "ivory tower" in reference to higher
education. Any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
J. Stearns


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Thu Jun  3 13:54:02 2004
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 14:54:02 +0100
Subject: Ivory tower
In-Reply-To: <BCE4A10B.C539%jstearns@compact.org>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.145402.0100.>

> I am looking for the etymology for "ivory tower" in reference to
> higher education. Any help you could provide would be greatly
> appreciated.

It's not especially clear where it comes from. I've had a shot at
explaining it at http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ivo1.htm .

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun  3 15:30:46 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 11:30:46 -0400
Subject: shero
In-Reply-To: <20040603074957.S25821@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.113046.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No, stress is on the first syllable:  [brae' z at l].

At 07:52 AM 6/3/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Arnold sez:
>
>
>today's Fresh Air had a long interview with Donna Brazill (Al Gore's
>campaign manager in 2000).
>
>
>For the record, she spells it "Brazile", or at least the NYT did in the 5/31
>Books section interview. I was wondering how to pronounce it; Arnold's post
>indicates /I/ and suggests final stress.
>
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun  3 15:39:55 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 11:39:55 -0400
Subject: "Pop-Pop" revisited
In-Reply-To: <15d.36b0a936.2df072b6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.113955.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And one more:  If she did say Papa, that's not far from Papaw, which IS
grandfather in much of the Appalachian/South Midland region (Mamaw is
grandmother).  In fact, I've heard Papa and Mama used for grandparents too,
but rarely.

That doesn't negate your suggestion that Pop Pop might also have wider
currency, of course.  The books I have on British English don't deal with
lexical variation very much, but I wonder if anyone knows whether either
Papa/Papaw or Pop Pop is used in Britain?

And Rowling does rhyme with bowling, in her pronunciation.

At 08:25 AM 6/3/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>On  Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:29:26 -0600,   Joan Houston Hall
><jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU> wrote on the
>Subject: "Re: slider/Slyder(R), Gut-bomb"
>
> >There's a nice map in Volume IV of DARE showing "pop-pop" to be found
> >chiefly in PA, NJ, DE, MD.
>
>and several other people (including myself) wrote in support of this
>geographical distribution of "Pop-Pop" for "grandfather".
>
>However, last night (June 2) the A&E cable network had a two-hour show, which
>I taped,  on J. K. Rowling and the Harry Potter movies.  (Note:  the show
>consistent had "Rowling" rhyme with "bowling", not "howling").  In the show
>Richard Harris stated:
>
><quote>
>My granddaughter called me and said, "Pop-Pop," she said, "If you don't play
>Dumbledore, I will never speak to you again."
><end quote>
>
>At least I heard it as "Pop-Pop", and I played the tape three or four times
>to check.  Harris mumbled the title; it could have been "Papa" but that sounds
>unlikely as a title for one's grandfather.
>
>Two obvious hypotheses:
>1)  "Pop-Pop" has a wider distribution than the DARE data suggests or
>2)  Harris's granddaughter lives in the Middle Atlantic States
>
>        - James A. Landau


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Jun  3 16:22:31 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 09:22:31 -0700
Subject: New ADS server and primary email; new site TK
In-Reply-To: <B4C6FCB2-B513-11D8-A695-000393AF7C50@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.092231.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oops! Sorry--kudos to all three!

Peter Mc.

--On Thursday, June 3, 2004 12:08 AM -0400 Grant Barrett
<gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG> wrote:

> Sorry, but I can't take credit for managing the email list. It is
> managed separately from the web site by Jesse Sheidlower and Terry
> Irons, who, I concur, do a great job keeping the list trouble- and
> spam-free.
>
> Grant
>
> On Jun 2, 2004, at 18:32, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>
>> And I say, kudos to Grant for managing the web site for quite a number
>> of
>> years, and now for buttering cats' paws and dealing with oodles o'
>> spam--all so that the rest of us can effortlessly enjoy this list.



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun  3 17:36:29 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 10:36:29 -0700
Subject: shero
In-Reply-To: <20040603074957.S25821@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.103629.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 3, 2004, at 4:52 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ..For the record, she spells it "Brazile", or at least the NYT did in
> the 5/31 Books section interview. I was wondering how to pronounce it;
> Arnold's post indicates /I/ and suggests final stress.

the pronunciation i'm sure of: just like Brazil (where the nuts come
from).

i wasn't at all sure of the spelling, though.  googling on Brazil got
me nothing having to do with her, but Brazill worked.  now i see that
it is indeed Brazile.  my apologies.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun  3 17:48:50 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 10:48:50 -0700
Subject: shero
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040603112935.011651c8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.104850.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 3, 2004, at 8:30 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> No, stress is on the first syllable:  [brae' z at l].

it was stressed on the second syllable all the way through the Fresh
Air interview.  i just went back and replayed the interview.

no doubt there are people named Brazile who pronounce the name with
stress on the first syllable.  but i doubt very much that up-front,
outspoken Donna Brazile would have put up with an interviewer
mispronouncing her name repeatedly on air.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun  3 18:11:34 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 14:11:34 -0400
Subject: shero
In-Reply-To: <4571B0E6-B586-11D8-9ADB-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.141134.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm surprised too, but I've heard it pronounced "my way" many times.  We'll
have to ask her!

At 10:48 AM 6/3/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>On Jun 3, 2004, at 8:30 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>>No, stress is on the first syllable:  [brae' z at l].
>
>it was stressed on the second syllable all the way through the Fresh
>Air interview.  i just went back and replayed the interview.
>
>no doubt there are people named Brazile who pronounce the name with
>stress on the first syllable.  but i doubt very much that up-front,
>outspoken Donna Brazile would have put up with an interviewer
>mispronouncing her name repeatedly on air.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From pds at VISI.COM  Thu Jun  3 18:38:27 2004
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 18:38:27 +0000
Subject: "Pop-Pop" revisited
In-Reply-To: <20040603154104.A6D104CF0@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.183827.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Those who use "mor-mor" for grandmother, use "pa-pa" (equal emphasis, equal
vowels, not PA-p@ or p at -PA) for grandfather.  In my acquaintance these are
Minnesotans of Swedish descent, but perhaps it is more widespread(?)  Anyway,
this pa-pa could also be mis-heard as "pop-pop".
--Tom Kysilko

Quoting Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>:

> And one more:  If she did say Papa, that's not far from Papaw, which IS
> grandfather in much of the Appalachian/South Midland region (Mamaw is
> grandmother).  In fact, I've heard Papa and Mama used for grandparents too,
> but rarely.
>
> That doesn't negate your suggestion that Pop Pop might also have wider
> currency, of course.  The books I have on British English don't deal with
> lexical variation very much, but I wonder if anyone knows whether either
> Papa/Papaw or Pop Pop is used in Britain?
>
> At 08:25 AM 6/3/2004 -0400, you wrote:
<snip-snip>
> >At least I heard it as "Pop-Pop", and I played the tape three or four times
> >to check.  Harris mumbled the title; it could have been "Papa" but that
> sounds
> >unlikely as a title for one's grandfather.
> >        - James A. Landau


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun  3 18:33:26 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 14:33:26 -0400
Subject: The f-word
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.143326.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, I quote from Buck's "Selected Indo-European Synonyms":

NE fuck ... quotable in print from the early 16th cent. ...  a much
earlier date is evidenced by the name John le Fucker quoted from 1278
A.D.

-Wilson Gray


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun  3 18:36:30 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 11:36:30 -0700
Subject: shero
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040603141030.02285fa0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.113630.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 3, 2004, at 11:11 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote, re the stress in
Brazile:

> I'm surprised too, but I've heard it pronounced "my way" many times.
> We'll have to ask her!

we *could* be facing one of those situations where people accept more
than one pronunciation of their names.  (certainly true of Judith
Klavans, and i believe of Peter Trudgill as well.)

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun  3 18:38:11 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 14:38:11 -0400
Subject: The f-word
In-Reply-To: <80CDECC4-B58C-11D8-8CAE-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.143811.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 02:33:26PM -0400, Wilson Gray wrote:
> FWIW, I quote from Buck's "Selected Indo-European Synonyms":
>
> NE fuck ... quotable in print from the early 16th cent. ...  a much
> earlier date is evidenced by the name John le Fucker quoted from 1278
> A.D.

This name has been exhaustively argued over--I could supply the
references if they weren't buried away somewhere--but the bottom
line is that it does not represent the same word as ModE _fuck_.

Jesse Sheidlower


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun  3 21:00:53 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:00:53 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <20040602233617.GB21111@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.170053.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> I find this astonishing, absolutely astonishing.

I have in front of me Joseph E. Wessely, Handy Dictionary of the Latin and
English Languages.  It has no date, but the Yale catalog assigns it the
dating "188-."  On page 29 appears the following:

cunnus, i, _m. cunt, strumpet._

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Jun  3 21:05:23 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:05:23 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0406031659060.7969-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.170523.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 05:00:53PM -0400, Fred Shapiro wrote:
> On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
> > I find this astonishing, absolutely astonishing.
>
> I have in front of me Joseph E. Wessely, Handy Dictionary of the Latin and
> English Languages.  It has no date, but the Yale catalog assigns it the
> dating "188-."  On page 29 appears the following:
>
> cunnus, i, _m. cunt, strumpet._

Oh, I didn't say I didn't believe it. Just that I find it astonishing.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET  Thu Jun  3 21:15:54 2004
From: SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET (Yerkes, Susan)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 16:15:54 -0500
Subject: "Sometimes you eat the bear..." (1904); "Tools of Ignorance"
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.161554.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the
fly/bug"? Surely that's a much later, but parallel phrase.

Susan Yerkes

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Bapopik at AOL.COM
Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 11:25 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: "Sometimes you eat the bear..." (1904); "Tools of Ignorance"


SOMETIMES YOU EAT THE BEAR, AND SOMETIMES THE BEAR EATS YOU

(ADS-L)
Sometimes, you eat the bear; sometimes, the bear eats you. -Wilson Gray

YOU EAT THE BEAR--1,530 Google hits, 4,870 Google Groups hits BEAR EATS
YOU--693 Google hits, 2,340 Google Groups hits

   Or, as Carole King used to sing. "sometimes you win, sometimes you
lose."
   Where does this come from?  These searches aren't easy.  You can
replace
"eat" with "hunt" and "get."  It goes back at least 100 years.
    I don't know about Fred Shapiro's bear collection.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Some Heartbreaks Are Relined
By JOHN S. RADOSTA Special to The New York Times. New York Times
(1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 21, 1973. p. 93 (1 page) :
   DAYTONE BEACH, Fla., Feb. 28--"Some days you eat the bear," Bobby
Allison
was saying, "and some days the bear eats you. "

Hunting: Some Days You Eat the Bear, Some Days --
BY ANGUS PHILLIPS. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington,
D.C.:
Dec 7, 1979. p. W45 (1 page)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Indiana Democrat - 12/14/1904
...SOMETIMES you bunt THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR hunts you and
oace
in.....him rope and turned off sideways. THE BEAR went to THE end of THE
forty
foot..
Indiana, Pennsylvania Wednesday, December 14, 1904  828 k

New Oxford Item - 1/13/1905
...SOMETIMES you hunt THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR hunts and once in

a.....At one end of THE cabin a brown BEAR paced ceaselessly to and fro
with..
New Oxford, Pennsylvania Friday, January 13, 1905  619 k

Walla Walla Union Bulletin - 5/31/1976
...later put it, "SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you and SOMETIMES you eat THE
.....and he would have come out-loaded for BEAR. It would have been a
heck of a..
Walla Walla, Washington Monday, May 31, 1976  651 k

Lincoln Star - 5/31/1976
...Indy INDIANAPOLIS (AP) "SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you and SOMETIMES you
eat
THE.....That's just THE way things work out SOMETIMES. "I feel sorry for
A.
J., but..
Lincoln, Nebraska Monday, May 31, 1976  599 k

Frederick Post - 5/14/1984
...YOU eat the BEAR, and sometimes the BEAR EATS YOU." Storm Davis,
3-0.....Knights finished no lower than fifth. "YOU've got to have the
numbers in
order..
Frederick, Maryland Monday, May 14, 1984  766 k

Mountain Democrat - 7/28/1989
...SOMETIMES you eat THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you. THE BEAR
.....see THE shots people take on TV, and SOMETIMES it's tough to get up
from..
Placerville, California Friday, July 28, 1989  516 k

Chronicle Telegram - 12/12/1994
...year, SOMETIMES you eat THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats you.
Today,
THE.....THE Oilers. After taking THE brunt of THE criticism for THE loss

against THE..
Elyria, Ohio Monday, December 12, 1994  663 k

Mountain Democrat - 9/12/1997
...HILLS SOME DAYS you eat THE BEAR SOME DAYS THE BEAR eats you. Monday
THE
Oak.....THE truth. It is true that THEre are SOME really fast runners
out THEre
who..
Placerville, California Friday, September 12, 1997  526 k

Wellsboro Gazette - 5/26/1999
...SOMETIMES you get THE BEAR, and SOMETIMES THE BEAR gets Mansfield
coach.....one hit." THE only hit of THE game for THE Tigers came in THE
bottom of THE ..
Wellsboro, Pennsylvania Wednesday, May 26, 1999  509 k

Gettysburg Times - 2/3/2003
...win. "SOMETIMES you eat THE BEAR and SOMETIMES THE BEAR eats said
Hefner.....cut THE lead to 59-56 with left. Dana BEAR hit a runner in
THE lane and THE ..

Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Monday, February 03, 2003  711 k


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: David Clasky (dclasky at mail.mia.hellsouth.net)
Subject: "...eat the bear..."
This is the only article in this thread
View: Original Format
Newsgroups: alt.quotations
Date: 1997/06/05

In my signature file the quote "Sometimes you eat the bear, and
sometimes the
bear eats you" is attributed to William Faulkner.  Many people have told
me
that the quote is from someone else, and they have given theories
ranging from
Joan Armatrading to Star Trek!  I've also heard it attributed to Stephen

Stills.  I originally heard it from my father, who heard it from a drill
sergeant
in the army in 1956.  Thedrill sergeant never attributed it to anyone.
Does
anyone out there know who said this?  Thanks.

DC--
********************************************************"
Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eatsyou." - William
Faulkner

------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
---------------------------------------------
TOOLS OF IGNORANCE

   I was going through Grant Barrett's wonderful site (a food word
posted
today is one that I'd previously posted here on ADS-L).  I like the term
"tools
of ignorance," but I can't beat the 1936 Newspaperarchive hit.


http://www.doubletongued.org
tools of ignorance n. a baseball catcher's mask, shin guards, and chest
padding.
1936 Arcadia Tribune (Calif.) (May 2) "Breadmen to Face Locals" p. 1:
Leroy
Zimmerman, star local high school graduate, will perform on the mound
for the
Corpe squad with Max Purcell donning the tools of ignorance to handle
his
slants. 2003 Vince Staten Why Is The Foul Pole Fair? (Apr. 1) p. 266:
Bresnahan's
shin guards were the final pieces of the "tools of ignorance," that
great
descriptive phrase for the catcher's equipment. There are conflicting
stories
about who came up with that wonderful monker: Some sources credit Herold
"Muddy"
Ruel, a Senators catcher who caught for Walter Johnson and later became
a
lawyer. The more likely-and earlier-story, from the "Diamond Jargon"
column in
the August 1939 issue of Baseball Magazine accepts Yankee catcher Bill
Dickey
as the true author. Dickey supposedly coined the term while donning his
gear
and brooding over why anyone would want to be a catcher in July heat. I
like
the Dickey story because it was published sixteen years before the Ruel
claim.
2004 [White] toolsOfIgnorance (Monrovia, Calif.) (May 14) "Howdy": The
term " tools of ignorance" is my 2nd favorite baseball colloquialism.


(WWW.PAPEROFRECORD.COM)
   8 August 1940, THE  SPORTING NEWS, pg. 2, col. 1:
  So, on his own suggestion, James Emory Foxx, the finest all-round
player in
baseball, donned the "tools of ignorance," as players refer to the chest

protector, mask and big mitt, on July 31, and became first-string
catcher of the
Red Sox.

   6 April 1944, THE SPORTING NEWS, pg. 3, col. 1:
   "Players call the catcher's armor the 'tools of ignorance,'" Ferrell
continued.  "Outfielders contend that no one in their senses would
clutter
themselves up with a mask, a heavy chest protector and weigh down their
legs with shin
guards.  All of this when the mercury is trying to climb out of the top
of
the tube, and those outfielders are on vacation, waiting for something
to
happen."


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
THE SPORTS X-RAY
BOB RAY. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar
27,
1937. p. A11 (1 page) :
   Ball players call a catcher's paraphernalia "the tools of ignorance."

Supposition is that a guy must be ignoranct ever to tackle such a tough
job as
catching.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun  3 21:29:06 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:29:06 -0400
Subject: "Pop-Pop" revisited
In-Reply-To: <1086287907.40bf7023ac33c@my.visi.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.172906.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ah, but that's a whole nother set--mormor, morfar, farmor, and farfar (I
think I have them right--mother's mother, mother's father, etc.).  My
sister is mormor to her grandson, but her husband (were he alive) would be
morfar.  I've never heard pa-pa used for grandfather among Scandinavian
Americans, but I've been away from Minnesota for a long while.  (My
colleague, who knows Finnish and Swedish pretty well, says his Finnish
in-laws use Pa-pa for g-father, but he's never heard Swedes do so.)

But I do think Richard Harris may have been misheard as saying PApa (same
vowels), which seems very English to me.

At 06:38 PM 6/3/2004 +0000, you wrote:
>Those who use "mor-mor" for grandmother, use "pa-pa" (equal emphasis, equal
>vowels, not PA-p@ or p at -PA) for grandfather.  In my acquaintance these are
>Minnesotans of Swedish descent, but perhaps it is more widespread(?)  Anyway,
>this pa-pa could also be mis-heard as "pop-pop".
>--Tom Kysilko
>
>Quoting Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>:
>
> > And one more:  If she did say Papa, that's not far from Papaw, which IS
> > grandfather in much of the Appalachian/South Midland region (Mamaw is
> > grandmother).  In fact, I've heard Papa and Mama used for grandparents too,
> > but rarely.
> >
> > That doesn't negate your suggestion that Pop Pop might also have wider
> > currency, of course.  The books I have on British English don't deal with
> > lexical variation very much, but I wonder if anyone knows whether either
> > Papa/Papaw or Pop Pop is used in Britain?
> >
> > At 08:25 AM 6/3/2004 -0400, you wrote:
><snip-snip>
> > >At least I heard it as "Pop-Pop", and I played the tape three or four
> times
> > >to check.  Harris mumbled the title; it could have been "Papa" but that
> > sounds
> > >unlikely as a title for one's grandfather.
> > >        - James A. Landau


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Jun  3 21:50:58 2004
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 14:50:58 -0700
Subject: American vs. European Date formats (Modified by Grant Barrett)
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.145058.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>People in the US will say I was born on March 12, 1984 (for example) >whereas I
>would say it "I was born on the 12th of March, 1984".
I don't know if this is any help in tracing the origin of either way, but German says "(I was born) am sechsten Juni" , i.e. the 6th (of) June; and (today is) der dritte Juni" the third (of) June.  I don't think "Juni sechste" --June 6th-- is even possible.
Fritz Juengling


Alan O'Flaherty
oflaherty at o2.ie


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun  3 22:28:57 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 18:28:57 -0400
Subject: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.182857.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I first heard "rip off" used as slang in 1966 in Los Angeles. Three
(black) women were downing [= putting down] a fourth woman who,
obviously, was not present. One of the women, in the course of her
critique, said, "[Whatever her name was] is a stone loser. Why, she
even lets guys rip her off in the backseats of cars!"
 From the context, it was clear that "rip off" meant "have sexual
intercourse with."
And, in my mind, the term's history was totally obvious. When I was
living in Saint Louis in 1950, the phrase, "tear off a piece [of ass],"
came into use among black males. (Interestingly enough, the phrase
"knock off a piece [of ass]" simultaneously came into use among white
males. (Though I lived black, I was educated white. My all-male prep
school had 800 white students and seven black ones.)) Sixteen years
later, ay walah, *rip off.
What bugs me is this. _This is the *one and only time* that I've *ever*
heard "rip off" used with a sexual connotation. As we all know, "rip
off" now universally has the meaning, "steal, rob," etc. In view of my
assertion that women don't originate
slang, how did it happen that I first heard this term used by a woman
and not by a man? On the other hand, if my assertion is wrong and this
phrase did originate among women, there remains the problem of why and
how did it, almost immediately, so completely lose its sexual meaning?
As far as I can tell, I may be the only native speaker of English on
the face of the earth who uses "rip off" with the meaning, "have sex."

-Wilson Gray


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun  3 23:12:15 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 19:12:15 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <20040603210523.GA26314@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.191215.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> Oh, I didn't say I didn't believe it. Just that I find it astonishing.

I didn't think you were disbelieving George.  But I shared your
astonishment, and thought confirmation of the citation would be of general
interest.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Thu Jun  3 23:32:13 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 18:32:13 -0500
Subject: Lady Team Nicknames
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.183213.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> This naming system was
>introduced to the nation as a whole when, in 1982, the women's
>basketball team of Louisiana Tech [sic] University won the NCAA
>Division I basketball championship. The nickname of the university's
>teams is the "Techsters." Therefore, the women's basketball team,
>dominated by black women, called itself the "_Lady_ Techsters,"
>following the usual black custom. White America, as is so often the
>case, looked upon this black them and found it hip.
>-Wilson Gray



I was at Univ of TN in the early 1980s when we were building into
a national power.  I saw them play LaTech a couple of times (when
you could still get tickets . . . ).  The women's team had been the
"Lady Vols" since 1976, well before 1982.  I think Florida has been
the Lady Gators since the 1973-74 season.

Many other teams were using the "Lady" nickname before 1982,
including in areas with very little black influence (Vermont, Canada).

Isn't it likely that this "system" came into play as schools fielded
women's teams in the 1970's (due to Title IX), not because they were
following a black naming convention, but because it allowed them to
take advantage of brand identities already existing in the men's teams?


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Thu Jun  3 23:33:52 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 18:33:52 -0500
Subject: Bulletin of Atomic Scientists Archive
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.183352.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists is opening up their archives for a
free trial
in PDF format.  The search engine isn't perfect; it sometimes returns
magazine
pages that are off by one or two.

This offer is only good for a couple of months, then it will be available to
paid
subscribers only.


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Thu Jun  3 23:51:41 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 19:51:41 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries: the Wessely dictionary
In-Reply-To: <200406030404.AAA16680@babel.ling.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.195141.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Wessely dictionary seems to have an interesting history, as far as I can
work out from the BorrowDirect catalogue to which I have access (which searches
the libraries of Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Penn, Princeton and
Yale).

A slightly more complete answer to the dating question is probably to be had
from the Yale catalogue entry:

AUTHOR: Wessely, Joseph Eduard, 1826-1895
TITLE: Handy dictionary of the Latin and English languages, with an appendix of
Latin geographical, historical and mythological proper names.
IMPRINT: Philadelphia : D. McKay, [188-?]

But NB the author:  not Ignaz Emanuel Wessely here, but Joseph Eduard, born
fifteen years earlier.

The plot thickens.  I'll end the main part of this message here since, for a
list about English, the rest of it is decidedly OT.  What follows my signature
is the details of other editions of what is possibly the same dictionary,
included only in case someone is interested in getting the possible later
editions and seeing whether 'cunt' has been removed or not.

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania

=================================

There also appears to have been at least one twentieth-century edition of the
same dictionary:

AUTHOR:
TITLE: Handy dictionary of the Latin and English languages, with an appendix of
Latin, geographical, historical, and mythological proper names.
IMPRINT: Philadelphia, David McKay Company, 1943.

(no author cited;  this one is at Brown and Cornell).

Finally, this one may just share a title with the Wessely dictionary, though it
appears to have been published by the same house:

AUTHOR: Woodhouse, S. C. (Sidney Chawner), b. 1871
TITLE: Handy dictionary of the Latin and English languages / by S.C. Woodhouse.

IMPRINT: New York : D. McKay, 1962.

(at Brown and Princeton)


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Jun  3 23:52:50 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 19:52:50 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.195250.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you, Fred.  If I don't find my copy of this dictionary this weekend, I won't find it until I next move.

I didn't suppose that Jesse was doubting me, though doubting a memory of something read 40 years before is very reasonable.  But I am glad that the exact citation is now before us.

I had a thought that I might use ABEBooks or the like to identify booksellers with this book, and ask them to check to see whether this definition was present in their copy.  But I see that D. McKay kept a book of this title in print into the 1960s, purportedly edited or revised, and I didn't recognize any as being the 19th C version.  I have just quickly checked the NYTimes on ProQuest, looking for a 19th C advertisement that might date the earliest printing of the book, but found nothing.

If a Latinist among us can suggest other Juvenalian words Fred or another with this book in hand might check to see whether this sort of vernacular definition was the editorial policy.  The male organ of generation is, I think, "mentula"?

I suspect that it was either a prank or sabotage on the part of a compositor.  This first press run of Twain's Huckleberry Finn was recalled because an engraver, (fired for drunkenness, I think) before he left, took a plate for the book showing a middle-aged male character standing with his arm around his wife's shoulder and added a few lines to give a bulge at the groin of the man's trousers.
A compositor either seeing cunnus discretely defined, in Latin, perhaps, thought I can give a better definition than that, or, not seeing cunnus at all, thought How can they leave out one of the most useful words in the Latin language?

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 3, 2004 5:00 pm
Subject: Re: dirty words in dictionaries

> On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
> > I find this astonishing, absolutely astonishing.
>
> I have in front of me Joseph E. Wessely, Handy Dictionary of the
> Latin and
> English Languages.  It has no date, but the Yale catalog assigns
> it the
> dating "188-."  On page 29 appears the following:
>
> cunnus, i, _m. cunt, strumpet._
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF
> QUOTATIONS  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale
> University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu
> http://quotationdictionary.com-------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun  4 00:02:03 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:02:03 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <187746a187c373.187c373187746a@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.200203.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 07:52:50PM -0400, George Thompson wrote:
>
> If a Latinist among us can suggest other Juvenalian words
> Fred or another with this book in hand might check to see
> whether this sort of vernacular definition was the editorial
> policy.  The male organ of generation is, I think,
> "mentula"?

Yes. I'd like to see how it defines "irrumare", or any of its
relatives (irrumatio, irrumator). This word, which means 'to
fuck the mouth of' (and is equivalently vulgar), is very
common in Catullus, who's often read in first- or second-year
Latin courses. It's defined by Lewis & Short as "to commit
beastly acts"; it's not in the non-small Cassell's Latin
Dictionary I used in high school, and Quinn's student edition,
from the 1980s or so, "defines" it as "mentulam in os inserere"
(I thought that habit had died a century before). The Oxford
Latin Dictionary, which I don't have at home, does give it a
reasonable, if overly proper, definition.

Jesse Sheidlower

P.S. "futuere" might be another one worth checking, of course.


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun  4 00:06:12 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:06:12 -0400
Subject: Acronyms (was: Phat(t), etc)
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.200612.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On the subject now of acronyms, technical or not, which have entered the
language, there's what looks like a very interesting site at

http://www.acronymfinder.com/

- you put in an acronym you want to know the definition of and it will
supposedly find it for you.

The question of 'non-technical' acronyms prompts two further ones:

- very many acronyms are now most often used, I'd say, in IM'ing.  Does that
count as technical or not?  The method certainly means that such acronyms have
come about because of technology and the need to communicate faster using a
text medium, but the majority of the messages conveyed using said acronyms are
probably not technical at all.

- does it only count if you would pronounce the acronym as a single 'word', eg
*Fucked/Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition* = <FUBAR> = 'foobar', or do things
like 'FWIW' count too?

Anyway, by Googling ACRONYM FUBAR I found what looks like a long list of
websites with lists of acronyms like this on them.  That seems to be the
easiest way to see how many of them there apparently are!

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun  4 00:09:12 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:09:12 -0400
Subject: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
In-Reply-To: <67542327-B5AD-11D8-8CAE-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.200912.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 06:28:57PM -0400, Wilson Gray wrote:
> I first heard "rip off" used as slang in 1966 in Los Angeles. Three
> (black) women were downing [= putting down] a fourth woman who,
> obviously, was not present. One of the women, in the course of her
> critique, said, "[Whatever her name was] is a stone loser. Why, she
> even lets guys rip her off in the backseats of cars!"
> From the context, it was clear that "rip off" meant "have sexual
> intercourse with."
> And, in my mind, the term's history was totally obvious. When I was
> living in Saint Louis in 1950, the phrase, "tear off a piece [of ass],"
> came into use among black males. (Interestingly enough, the phrase
> "knock off a piece [of ass]" simultaneously came into use among white
> males. (Though I lived black, I was educated white. My all-male prep
> school had 800 white students and seven black ones.)) Sixteen years
> later, ay walah, *rip off.
> What bugs me is this. _This is the *one and only time* that I've *ever*
> heard "rip off" used with a sexual connotation.

Though as a white man I am no doubt unfamiliar with most
aspects of black culture, I can tell you that _rip off_ 'to
have sexual intercourse with' or 'to rape' is reasonably well
attested in the 1960s, esp. in AAVE. We have examples from one
or two prison memoirs, from a Hell's Angel memoir, and from
several of the Iceberg Slim books.

The longer phrase _rip off a piece/hunk/etc._ does indeed
exist, and is attested at least as far back as the 1930s; I
assume it is the origin.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun  4 00:22:50 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 17:22:50 -0700
Subject: "Sometimes you eat the bear..." (1904); "Tools of Ignorance"
In-Reply-To: <200406031416.1bvZzi2323NZFjK0@condor>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.172250.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       "Yerkes, Susan" <SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET>
>Subject:      Re: "Sometimes you eat the bear..." (1904); "Tools of Ignorance"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>How about "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the
>fly/bug"? Surely that's a much later, but parallel phrase.

I've heard more frequently, "Sometimes you're the bird, sometimes
you're the statue."  I don't remember when I first heard it, though.

Rima


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun  4 00:24:18 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:24:18 -0400
Subject: Ivory tower
In-Reply-To: <40BF3B8A.19960.6968CF5@localhost>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.202418.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > I am looking for the etymology for "ivory tower" in reference to
> > higher education. Any help you could provide would be greatly
> > appreciated.
>
>It's not especially clear where it comes from. I've had a shot at
>explaining it at http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ivo1.htm .

I don't have any solid answer but I can add a few remarks.

I doubt that the Biblical "tower of ivory" used as a simile for a woman's
neck is relevant.

There are Biblical references to an "ivory house" or "ivory palace" (Ahab
had one, I think): I believe these might be relevant. Presumably an "ivory
palace" was a palace heavily decorated with ivory. (Any expert, please
correct me if necessary.) However on naive reading one might take this to
mean a palace constructed entirely of ivory, which would be the wonder of
the world, surely, unless it was a very tiny palace. I suspect this is the
basic concept.

Here are some lines referring to a sumptuous palace, from Matthew Prior's
poem "Solomon on the Vanity of the World", dating from 1718 (I think), as
printed in 1860, available on-line at MoA (Michigan):

    The workmen here obey'd the master's call,
To gild the turret, and to paint the wall;
To mark the pavement there with various stone,
And on the jasper steps to rear the throne:
The spreading cedar that an age had stood,
Supreme of trees, and mistress of the wood,
Cut down and carv'd, my shining roof adorns,
And Lebanon his ruin'd honour mourns.
A thousand artists show their cunning power,
To raise the wonders of the ivory tower.

Presumably this refers to a tower covered with ivory (scrimshaw?) at
enormous expense.

So the "ivory tower" may have represented fabulous luxury or wealth
originally. "Tower" in general could mean "place of refuge" too. "Tour
d'ivoire" seems to have appeared in several French works in the 19th
century; possibly review of some of these could show the semantic
development more clearly. Was Vigny considered a very prosperous and
comfortable person?

Anyway, "ivory tower" = "very luxurious and secure place" [such as that
inhabited by an ancient king, or by a modern tenured professor (^_^)] would
seem easy to derive from the above notion.

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun  4 00:45:31 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:45:31 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <20040604000203.GA10885@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.204531.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:02 PM 6/3/2004, you wrote:
>Yes. I'd like to see how it defines "irrumare", or any of its
>relatives (irrumatio, irrumator). This word, which means 'to
>fuck the mouth of' (and is equivalently vulgar), is very
>common in Catullus, who's often read in first- or second-year
>Latin courses. It's defined by Lewis & Short as "to commit
>beastly acts"; it's not in the non-small Cassell's Latin
>Dictionary I used in high school, and Quinn's student edition,
>from the 1980s or so, "defines" it as "mentulam in os inserere"
>(I thought that habit had died a century before). The Oxford
>Latin Dictionary, which I don't have at home, does give it a
>reasonable, if overly proper, definition.
>
>Jesse Sheidlower
>
>P.S. "futuere" might be another one worth checking, of course.

A Latin-English dictionary from ca. 1850 at MoA(Michigan) shows:

"Cunnus" ("the female pudenda ... an unchaste female, a courtesan".

"Cunnilingus", defined only in Latin ("cunnum lingens").

"Fellator" ("a sucker, in an obscene sense").

"Futuo" ("To have connection with a female (very rare)").

"Fututio" ("A lying with, copulation").

"Irrumo" ("To extend the breast to, to give suck; hence, ... To practice a
kind of filthy obscenity ... To treat in a foul or shameful manner, to
abuse, deceive ....").

-- Doug Wilson


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Fri Jun  4 00:46:51 2004
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:46:51 -0400
Subject: "Pop-Pop" revisited
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.204651.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My Swedish-American grandfather (b. 1889) was "Pop-Pop"--he was born in
Brooklyn, NY but his parents were from Sweden.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  4 01:02:36 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 21:02:36 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20dirty=20words=20in=20?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?dictionaries?=
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.210236.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have only seen IRRUMATION used in English in the sense of 'present the
penis or breast for someone to suck'. This is a very handy word to have available,
since there is no other word (that I can think of) that means that! Of
course, it is not a word that one normally has occasion to use.

I have never seen IRRUMATE used in English to mean 'fuck the mouth', but
maybe I've just missed it.

I don't find either IRRUMATE or IRRUMATION in any of the English dictionaries
that are on my desk at the moment.

In a message dated 6/3/04 8:46:29 PM, douglas at NB.NET writes:


> At 08:02 PM 6/3/2004, you wrote:
> >Yes. I'd like to see how it defines "irrumare", or any of its
> >relatives (irrumatio, irrumator). This word, which means 'to
> >fuck the mouth of' (and is equivalently vulgar), is very
> >common in Catullus, who's often read in first- or second-year
> >Latin courses. It's defined by Lewis & Short as "to commit
> >beastly acts"; it's not in the non-small Cassell's Latin
> >Dictionary I used in high school, and Quinn's student edition,
> >from the 1980s or so, "defines" it as "mentulam in os inserere"
> >(I thought that habit had died a century before). The Oxford
> >Latin Dictionary, which I don't have at home, does give it a
> >reasonable, if overly proper, definition.
> >
> >Jesse Sheidlower
> >
> >P.S. "futuere" might be another one worth checking, of course.
>
> A Latin-English dictionary from ca. 1850 at MoA(Michigan) shows:
>
> "Cunnus" ("the female pudenda ... an unchaste female, a courtesan".
>
> "Cunnilingus", defined only in Latin ("cunnum lingens").
>
> "Fellator" ("a sucker, in an obscene sense").
>
> "Futuo" ("To have connection with a female (very rare)").
>
> "Fututio" ("A lying with, copulation").
>
> "Irrumo" ("To extend the breast to, to give suck; hence, ... To practice a
> kind of filthy obscenity ... To treat in a foul or shameful manner, to
> abuse, deceive ....").
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 01:14:13 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 21:14:13 -0400
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
In-Reply-To: <D6C58E58-B3D4-11D8-88C8-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.211413.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>On Jun 1, 2004, at 9:33 AM, Dale Coye wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Dale Coye <Dalecoye at AOL.COM>
>>Subject:      Re: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>This reminds me of the Weavers' song-- not sure of the title but the
>>first
>>line is "We sailed on the ship John D."  --they sing "I feel so
>>break-up, I
>>wanna go home"   When I heard the Beach Boys version not so long ago
>>they changed
>>it to "I feel so broke up" which makes more sense to me-- almost in
>>the sense
>>we're talking about in "stove up"-- can anyone enlighten me on "feel so
>>break-up?"  why break and not broke?
>>
>>DF Coye
>>The College of NJ
>
>"The Ship 'John B.'" is a folksong of Caribbean origin - Jamaican, I
>think, but maybe not - and uses some form of Caribbean English. Is it
>true that the Beach Boys sing "broke up"? I've always heard it as
>"break up." My mistake, I guess.
>
>-Wilson Gray

It's actually "The Sloop John B." rather than "The Ship".  I was
pretty sure that the standard Beach Boys' recording of the song,
presumably adapted by Brian Wilson, did indeed have it "I feel so
break up", not "broke up", but a google search confirms Dale's
memory, not Wilson's and mine.  I'm puzzled, but resigned.   Maybe
they actually sang and recorded it both ways on different occasions?

Larry


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Jun  4 01:25:50 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 18:25:50 -0700
Subject: The f-word
In-Reply-To: <20040603183810.GA22355@panix.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.182550.0700.>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Jesse Sheidlower
> Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 11:38 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: The f-word
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 02:33:26PM -0400, Wilson Gray wrote:
> > FWIW, I quote from Buck's "Selected Indo-European Synonyms":
> >
> > NE fuck ... quotable in print from the early 16th cent. ...  a much
> > earlier date is evidenced by the name John le Fucker quoted from 1278
> > A.D.
>
> This name has been exhaustively argued over--I could supply the
> references if they weren't buried away somewhere--but the bottom
> line is that it does not represent the same word as ModE _fuck_.

The "John le Fucker" reference first appears in Carl Buck's 1949
Indo-European dictionary. Buck does not supply a citation as to where he
found the name. No one has subsequently found the manuscript in which it is
alleged to have appeared.

If the citation is genuine and not an error, it is most likely a spelling
variant of "fulcher," meaning soldier.

A detailed discussion can be found in A.W. Read's "Milestones in The History
of English," PADS 86.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun  4 01:36:05 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 21:36:05 -0400
Subject: The f-word
In-Reply-To: <OCEFKEEBCCDKPHIMICJGEEKOCJAA.dave@wilton.net>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.213605.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>The "John le Fucker" reference first appears in Carl Buck's 1949
>Indo-European dictionary. Buck does not supply a citation as to where he
>found the name. No one has subsequently found the manuscript in which it is
>alleged to have appeared.
>
>If the citation is genuine and not an error, it is most likely a spelling
>variant of "fulcher," meaning soldier.

Oxford "Dictionary of English Surnames", under "Fulcher" (with many
spelling variants):

"... Nicholas Fuker' 1234 ... Warin Fucher 1235 ... John Foucher' 1242 ...
from OFr Foucher, Fouquier, from OG Fulchar, Fulcher 'people-army'."

-- Doug Wilson


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  4 01:40:07 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 21:40:07 EDT
Subject: wordorigins.org
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.214007.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does anyone know anything about "wordorigins.org"?

Their URL is
http://p066.ezboard.com/bwordoriginsorg

This Web site seems to be quoting liberally and somewhat mysteriously from
ADS-L .
Just curious.  I guess they're harmless.

     - Jim Landau


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Jun  4 02:00:53 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 19:00:53 -0700
Subject: wordorigins.org
In-Reply-To: <15c.36233a43.2df12cf7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.190053.0700.>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of James A. Landau
> Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 6:40 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: wordorigins.org
>
>
> Does anyone know anything about "wordorigins.org"?
>
> Their URL is
> http://p066.ezboard.com/bwordoriginsorg
>
> This Web site seems to be quoting liberally and somewhat mysteriously from
> ADS-L .
> Just curious.  I guess they're harmless.
>
>      - Jim Landau
>
>

I know a bit about it. It is my website.

Some of the members of this list are denizens of the discussion group. Many
others are lurkers. Some in the discussion group quote rather liberally from
this list. Most of the quotes either use ADS-L as a source for answers to
particular questions or, in some cases, quoting ADS-L as a means to starting
a discussion on a particular language-related topic.

I don't encourage liberal or extensive quoting from any source, but it's an
open discussion group. If people here object, I'll ask people to refrain
from starting threads with quotes from this list.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun  4 02:03:07 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 22:03:07 -0400
Subject: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
In-Reply-To: <200406031709.1bw2h75ow3NZFjw0@skylark>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.220307.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 3, 2004, at 8:09 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>
> Subject:      Re: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 06:28:57PM -0400, Wilson Gray wrote:
>> I first heard "rip off" used as slang in 1966 in Los Angeles. Three
>> (black) women were downing [= putting down] a fourth woman who,
>> obviously, was not present. One of the women, in the course of her
>> critique, said, "[Whatever her name was] is a stone loser. Why, she
>> even lets guys rip her off in the backseats of cars!"
>> From the context, it was clear that "rip off" meant "have sexual
>> intercourse with."
>> And, in my mind, the term's history was totally obvious. When I was
>> living in Saint Louis in 1950, the phrase, "tear off a piece [of
>> ass],"
>> came into use among black males. (Interestingly enough, the phrase
>> "knock off a piece [of ass]" simultaneously came into use among white
>> males. (Though I lived black, I was educated white. My all-male prep
>> school had 800 white students and seven black ones.)) Sixteen years
>> later, ay walah, *rip off.
>> What bugs me is this. _This is the *one and only time* that I've
>> *ever*
>> heard "rip off" used with a sexual connotation.
>
> Though as a white man I am no doubt unfamiliar with most
> aspects of black culture, I can tell you that _rip off_ 'to
> have sexual intercourse with' or 'to rape' is reasonably well
> attested in the 1960s, esp. in AAVE. We have examples from one
> or two prison memoirs, from a Hell's Angel memoir, and from
> several of the Iceberg Slim books.
>
> The longer phrase _rip off a piece/hunk/etc._ does indeed
> exist, and is attested at least as far back as the 1930s; I
> assume it is the origin.
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
> OED
>

I've already been taken to task wrt to my unfortunate habit of failing
to express myself clearly. For that, I must again beg indulgence. I
have no problem whatsoever wrt the sexual reference of "rip off." My
question is, what could have motivated the total *loss* of the sexual
reading and what could have brought it about so quickly, so that I've
heard "rip off" with the sexual reading used in live speech only one
time by one person, despite the ubiquity of the locution? The word
"screw," for example, retains its sexual reading. Even "jazz" retains
its sexual reading. Why not "rip off"? There's probably no answer to
that question, but it never hurts to ask.
I'll keep my opinion of Iceberg Slim to myself, since it has nothing to
do with his writings. But I do hope that you'll spare me any further
reference to him.


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun  4 02:22:47 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 22:22:47 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries: the Wessely dictionary
In-Reply-To: <200406031651.1bw1ZS4A23NZFmR0@bunting>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.222247.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 3, 2004, at 7:51 PM, Damien Hall wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Damien Hall <halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      dirty words in dictionaries: the Wessely dictionary
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The Wessely dictionary seems to have an interesting history, as far as
> I can
> work out from the BorrowDirect catalogue to which I have access (which
> searches
> the libraries of Brown, Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Penn, Princeton
> and
> Yale).
>
> A slightly more complete answer to the dating question is probably to
> be had
> from the Yale catalogue entry:
>
> AUTHOR: Wessely, Joseph Eduard, 1826-1895
> TITLE: Handy dictionary of the Latin and English languages, with an
> appendix of
> Latin geographical, historical and mythological proper names.
> IMPRINT: Philadelphia : D. McKay, [188-?]
>
> But NB the author:  not Ignaz Emanuel Wessely here, but Joseph Eduard,
> born
> fifteen years earlier.
>
> The plot thickens.  I'll end the main part of this message here since,
> for a
> list about English, the rest of it is decidedly OT.  What follows my
> signature
> is the details of other editions of what is possibly the same
> dictionary,
> included only in case someone is interested in getting the possible
> later
> editions and seeing whether 'cunt' has been removed or not.
>
> Damien Hall
> University of Pennsylvania
>
> =================================
>
> There also appears to have been at least one twentieth-century edition
> of the
> same dictionary:
>
> AUTHOR:
> TITLE: Handy dictionary of the Latin and English languages, with an
> appendix of
> Latin, geographical, historical, and mythological proper names.
> IMPRINT: Philadelphia, David McKay Company, 1943.
> (no author cited;  this one is at Brown and Cornell).

Harvard has an edition very similar to the one above. The only
difference between the two is in the imprint: 1938.

-Wilson Gray

>
> Finally, this one may just share a title with the Wessely dictionary,
> though it
> appears to have been published by the same house:
>
> AUTHOR: Woodhouse, S. C. (Sidney Chawner), b. 1871
> TITLE: Handy dictionary of the Latin and English languages / by S.C.
> Woodhouse.
>
> IMPRINT: New York : D. McKay, 1962.
>
> (at Brown and Princeton)
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 02:50:13 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 22:50:13 -0400
Subject: shero
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040602173548.01194930@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.225013.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:36 PM -0400 6/2/04, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>This is a great word!

...and one presumably necessitated by the taboo-avoidance of "heroine."

(As for Donna Brazile, her name was regularly pronounced like the
quasi-eponymous country's, back during the 2000 campaign.)

Larry

>
>At 10:56 AM 6/2/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>>today's Fresh Air had a long interview with Donna Brazill (Al Gore's
>>campaign manager in 2000).  interesting sociolinguistically, since
>>she's a public and powerful woman who's preserved lots of features of
>>informal southern AAVE: piles of -in', medial glottal stop in "sudden"
>>as well as "didn't", the occasional unmarked 3rd sg present, etc.
>>stunning contrast to, say, Condi Rice.
>>
>>along the way, she talked about the "heroes and sheroes" of the civil
>>rights movement.  "shero" isn't in our archives (though some of you
>>might already have collected it).  there are a fair number of shero
>>sites on the web -- feminist, african american, often both.  a small
>>sample:
>>
>>Sistapower - Shero - Highlighting an African American Shero
>>(http://www.sistapower.com/shero.htm)
>>
>>My Shero: Mature Lesbians Making a Difference
>>(http://www.classicdykes.com/sheroes.htm)
>>
>>Who is YOUR Shero?
>>(http://www.girlsinitiativenetwork.org/shero.htm)
>>
>>Black Women Today - Shero of the Week
>>(http://www.tbwt.com/blackwomentoday/shero.asp)
>>
>>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun  4 02:55:59 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 22:55:59 -0400
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
In-Reply-To: <200406031814.1bw3hM3bs3NZFkl0@cockatoo>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.225559.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 3, 2004, at 9:14 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> On Jun 1, 2004, at 9:33 AM, Dale Coye wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Dale Coye <Dalecoye at AOL.COM>
>>> Subject:      Re: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> This reminds me of the Weavers' song-- not sure of the title but the
>>> first
>>> line is "We sailed on the ship John D."  --they sing "I feel so
>>> break-up, I
>>> wanna go home"   When I heard the Beach Boys version not so long ago
>>> they changed
>>> it to "I feel so broke up" which makes more sense to me-- almost in
>>> the sense
>>> we're talking about in "stove up"-- can anyone enlighten me on "feel
>>> so
>>> break-up?"  why break and not broke?
>>>
>>> DF Coye
>>> The College of NJ
>>
>> "The Ship 'John B.'" is a folksong of Caribbean origin - Jamaican, I
>> think, but maybe not - and uses some form of Caribbean English. Is it
>> true that the Beach Boys sing "broke up"? I've always heard it as
>> "break up." My mistake, I guess.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>
> It's actually "The Sloop John B." rather than "The Ship".  I was
> pretty sure that the standard Beach Boys' recording of the song,
> presumably adapted by Brian Wilson, did indeed have it "I feel so
> break up", not "broke up", but a google search confirms Dale's
> memory, not Wilson's and mine.  I'm puzzled, but resigned.   Maybe
> they actually sang and recorded it both ways on different occasions?
>
> Larry
>

Re: "sloop" vs. "ship." Quite so. It is indeed "sloop" and I knew that.
I should have proofread the post before I sent it. My bad. Re: "break
up" vs. "broke up."
"Break up" is my story and I'm sticking to it.

-Wilson Gray


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 03:35:10 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:35:10 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0406031659060.7969-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.233510.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:00 PM -0400 6/3/04, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>
>>  I find this astonishing, absolutely astonishing.
>
>I have in front of me Joseph E. Wessely, Handy Dictionary of the Latin and
>English Languages.  It has no date, but the Yale catalog assigns it the
>dating "188-."  On page 29 appears the following:
>
>cunnus, i, _m. cunt, strumpet._
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
I was going to check for this in the Yale library copy of the
dictionary (hosted, curiously enough, by the Kline Science Library),
but strangely enough, it seems to have been checked out.  ;-)

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 03:50:00 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:50:00 -0400
Subject: dirty words in                dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <8d.c92f715.2df1242c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.235000.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I have only seen IRRUMATION used in English in the sense of 'present the
>penis or breast for someone to suck'. This is a very handy word to
>have available,
>since there is no other word (that I can think of) that means that! Of
>course, it is not a word that one normally has occasion to use.
>
>I have never seen IRRUMATE used in English to mean 'fuck the mouth', but
>maybe I've just missed it.
>
>I don't find either IRRUMATE or IRRUMATION in any of the English dictionaries
>that are on my desk at the moment.

There are "about 46" hits for _irrrumate_ on google, some of which
are from (admittedly obscure) lexicons.  Three on Nexis, including
this delightful excerpt from a Times (of London) book review:

November 1, 1990, Thursday
HEADLINE: Titter ye not, O Aves Spinae
BYLINE: Peter Jones

THE FIRST MAN IN ROME, By Colleen McCullough, Century, Pounds 14.95.


...But filing-cabinets are not literature. The 100-page index that
accompanies the work, with its glossary of technical terms, maps, and
guides to pronunciation (pilum: pee-loom) reinforces the point. This,
she says, is evidence of her ''scholarship''; but who cares about her
''scholarship''? She is writing a novel, not a text-book (and she
thinks that a fellator irrumates and vice-versa, which does not give
one much confidence in her ''scholarship'' either).

larry


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun  4 03:54:50 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:54:50 -0400
Subject: dirty words in                dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <p0432040ebce5a0904d0e@[130.132.231.254]>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.235450.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 11:50:00PM -0400, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> November 1, 1990, Thursday
> HEADLINE: Titter ye not, O Aves Spinae
> BYLINE: Peter Jones
>
> THE FIRST MAN IN ROME, By Colleen McCullough, Century, Pounds 14.95.
>
>
> ...But filing-cabinets are not literature. The 100-page index that
> accompanies the work, with its glossary of technical terms, maps, and
> guides to pronunciation (pilum: pee-loom) reinforces the point. This,
> she says, is evidence of her ''scholarship''; but who cares about her
> ''scholarship''? She is writing a novel, not a text-book (and she
> thinks that a fellator irrumates and vice-versa, which does not give
> one much confidence in her ''scholarship'' either).

Glorious.

Jesse Sheidlower


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 03:58:47 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 23:58:47 -0400
Subject: "Sometimes you eat the bear..." (1904); "Tools of Ignorance"
In-Reply-To: <a06020402bce5691651cf@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <THU.3.JUN.2004.235847.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       "Yerkes, Susan" <SYerkes at EXPRESS-NEWS.NET>
>>Subject:      Re: "Sometimes you eat the bear..." (1904); "Tools of
>>Ignorance"
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>How about "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the
>>fly/bug"? Surely that's a much later, but parallel phrase.
>
>I've heard more frequently, "Sometimes you're the bird, sometimes
>you're the statue."  I don't remember when I first heard it, though.
>
Ah, but the windshield-vs.-bug pair was popularized by a country
song, which I've heard in a number of versions but was apparently
penned by Marc Knopfler.  The chorus (containing another instance of
the opposition in question):

Sometimes you're the windshield
Sometimes you're the bug
Sometimes it all comes together baby
Sometimes you're just a fool in love
Sometimes you're the Louisville Slugger
Sometimes you're the ball
Sometimes it all comes together
Sometimes you're gonna lose it all

Larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun  4 04:30:33 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 00:30:33 -0400
Subject: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
In-Reply-To: <20040604000912.GB10885@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.003033.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What about these senses of "rip off"?

(1)

"I'll rip off a quick letter to the editor."
"He ripped off a 20-page essay over the weekend."

(2)

"The team ripped off three big victories."
"He ripped of a 40-yard run."
"They ripped off a lot of yardage."
"We ripped off two touchdowns in the fourth quarter."

I can't find these in my dictionaries.

These are quite familiar (aren't they?), and much older than "rip off" =
"steal"/"rob"/etc., I think (both groups represented from ca. 1920 on brief
search).

Of course they're not as glamorous (no sex or crime), but shouldn't they be
in the slang dictionaries?

What are the standard equivalents of "rip off" in these cases, and how are
the different "rip off" verbs related?

Isn't "rip off a touchdown" somewhat analogous to "rip off a piece of
[whatever that was]"? (^_^)

There is also

(3)

"He ripped off a loud fart."
"He ripped off a series of curses."

The groupings are according to my casual impression.

-- Doug Wilson


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 04:34:43 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 00:34:43 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040602204423.02f79eb0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.003443.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:58 PM -0400 6/2/04, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>>(Can anyone
>>>  think of any other nontechnical terms - not initialisms like
>>>  "TGIF" -  that have acronymic origins?)
>
>I guess it depends on what's labeled "technical". There's "awol", there's
>"scuba", there's "moped" if you loosen up the definition of "acronym", some
>more.
>
>But there aren't too many in conventional use really.
>
>I doubt that "snafu" is an 'honest' acronym etymologically (which would
>require that there was a previously existing expression "situation normal
>..."): likely the word was invented to imitate "snag", "snarl", etc., and
>then assigned an expansion as an imaginary origin: but of course I could be
>wrong again.
>
Given "fubar" as well, though, and several other acronyms of the same
sort, all from military argot (Jesse cites a few in his _F Word_),
another possibility is that the acronym and phrase came into being
simultaneously.  I doubt that people were saying "snafu" and "fubar"
for a while, and then realized that, hey, those letters can be made
to stand for the initials of "situation normal all fucked up" and
"fucked up beyond all recognition" respectively!  There are indeed
bac(k)ronyms of this sort--the PATRIOT Act is a recent example, or
SPECTRE from the old James Bond books, or (I assume) the WAVES--but I
don't think "snafu" is likely to be among them, along I wouldn't
object to the claim that its popularity may have owed something to
the "snag"/"snarl" connection Doug mentions.

Larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun  4 06:44:34 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 02:44:34 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <p04320414bce5aa88a4ae@[130.132.231.254]>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.024434.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Given "fubar" as well, though, and several other acronyms of the same
>sort, all from military argot (Jesse cites a few in his _F Word_),
>another possibility is that the acronym and phrase came into being
>simultaneously.

True.

However "fubar"/"foo-bar" seems to be something of a special case, with a
bag of worms attached:

http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3092.html

... I haven't made any attempt to sort this out. I do doubt "fubar" as a
genuine acronym because the supposed expansion includes the word "all"
which doesn't really belong.

>I doubt that people were saying "snafu" and "fubar"
>for a while, and then realized that, hey, those letters can be made
>to stand for the initials of "situation normal all fucked up" and
>"fucked up beyond all recognition" respectively!

I think this exact scenario is plausible for "snafu"! But the "while" might
have been only an hour or a week. Suppose (just as a random example)
somebody made a casual alteration of "snaffle" (in the sense
"delay"/"check") to "snaffoo": "Snaffooed by those idiots at the shipyard
again! These nuts don't match those bolts and we can't do anything!" [Or
assume any other origin of the spoken word, including the possibility of a
genuine but different acronym.] Then after a "while" somebody asks, "What
is this word 'snaffoo' that everybody is using around here lately?" and
somebody makes up an acronym-expansion and the rest is history. Given a
military milieu, the "fu" might have sort of automatically implied "f---ed
up" from the first time it was uttered, of course. The "situation normal"
part has the smell of a backronym. I could be wrong, of course.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  4 07:20:53 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 03:20:53 EDT
Subject: Oreo Ice Cream (1975); "But I know what I like"(1877); Terroir;
 Cat & Gooseberry
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.032053.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I attended a wine and cheese tasting at Agata & Valentina at First Avenue
and 79th Street.  It's by http://epicurean.sturman.com.  The fabulous
wine-tasting woman, Sheri Sauter, MW, CWE (featured in FORTUNE magazine last week),
refused to marry me.
   I got home, got access to Proquest Historical Newspapers through SABR,
watched THE DAILY SHOW at the same time, nodded off, and woke up to find that I
had access to all of ProQuest!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
OREO COOKIE ICE CREAM

   Emack and Bolio's ice cream has opened up at East 81st Street and First
Avenue (near Agata & Valentina).  I don't know if the revised OED is entering
"OREO," but see the ADS-L archives for that name.  Emack and Bolio's takes
credit for inventing Oreo cookie ice cream.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.emackandbolios.com/icecream2.htm
"The Original" Oreo Cookie-Invented by us in 1975.  The most popular flavor
of
      the 80s with chunks of Oreo cookie in a vanilla/Oreao base.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"BUT I KNOW WHAT I LIKE"

   Sheri Sauter ("that wine woman") told us that wine tasting is like art--"I
don't know much about art, but I know what I like."
   I revisited the phrase and found a bit earlier than I'd posted.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
    1.  Article 2 -- No Title
Scribner's Monthly (1870-1881). New York: Feb 1877. Vol. VOL. XIII., Iss. No.
4.; p. 562 (2 pages)
Second page:  WHEN a person prefaces his opinion of a picture or of a piece
of music, with this formula,--"I don't profess to know anything about art (or
music), but I know what I like,"--then look out for dogmatism of the most
flagrant sort.  If "what I like" is different from what you like, your liking is
ser down forthwith as either affectation, or the result of some kind of personal
and temporary influence.

    2.  THE RISE OF SILAS LAPHAM.
BY W. D. HOWELLS, Author of "Venetian Life," "A Chance Acquaintance," "A
Modern Instance," "A Woman's Reason," etc.. Century Illustrated Magazine
(1881-1906). New York: Apr 1885. Vol. VOL. XXIX., Iss. No. 6.; p. 858 (15 pages)

    3.  NEW YORK AFTER PARIS.
W C BROWNELL. New Princeton Review (1886-1888). New York: Jul 1888. p. 80 (15
pages)

    4.  Wanted--A Standard of Criticism.
The Musical Visitor, a Magazine of Musical Literature and Music (1883-1897).
Cincinnati: Jun 1892. Vol. 21, Iss. 6; p. 156 (2 pages)
Second page:  I do not know much about music, says a friend, but I know what
I like.  Is not this "liking" about all that any one can judge from?

    5.  THE BASES OF APPRECIATION IN ART.
EDWARD E. HALE, JR.. a Semi - monthly Journal of Literary Criticism,
Discussion, and Information (1880-1929). Sep 16, 1895. Vol. Volume XIX., Iss. No.
222.; p. 141 (3 pages)
First page:  In literature, in painting, and elsewhere, the generally
accepted dictum is, "I don't know anything about the rules of art, but I know what I
like," with which is coupled a firm determination not to like anything that
one doesn;t want to of one;s own mere motion, and, indeed, not to submit to any
interference that in any respect smacks of thought or knowledge of the matter
in hand.


)PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
IN THE INTEREST OF ART.; Many Artists Dine at the Reform Club and Talk of
Beautifying the City.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 23, 1898. p. 5 (1
page) :
   J. Q. A. Ward, President of the National Sculpture Society, reviewed the
career of the Commission of Parks and amused his hearers by allusions to the
monuments sought to be foisted on the city by well-meaning persons who confessed
that they did not know much about art, but "knew what they liked."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TERROIR

TERROIR--523,000 Google hits, 9,900 Google Groups hits
TERROIR ("English only" hits)--67,000 Google hits, 9,900 Google Groups hits

   Sheri Sauter (the wine woman who's marrying some lucky guy from North
Carolina and moving back to Duke) mentioned this word.  It seems quite popular in
the wine world and on the internet, but the OED (always miserable on food and
drink) declares it obscure and rare.


(OED)
terroir
Obs. rare.   a. = TERRITORY1.    b. Soil.
  1483 CAXTON Gold. Leg. 18/2 For to berye it in the terroir of the cyte of
Losane. 1660 Charac. Italy 83 Italy is the Garden of Europe, the Terroir being
gentle and copious.

------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
CAT'S PEE ON A GOOSEBERRY BUSH

CAT + GOOSEBERRY BUSH--613 Google hits, 51 Google Groups hits

   Sheri Sauter also gave a brief mention about "cat's pee on a gooseberry
bush."


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Where to start?
... Broadbent often talks of mango chutney, Parker of "black fruits", and
Jancis Robinson will be forever famous for her "cat's pee on a wild gooseberry
bush". ...
alt.food.wine - Sep 28, 2001 by Elpaninaro - View Thread (14 articles)

Re: Great Haggis Recipes
There was a New Zealand chardonnay available in Britain a while back called "
Cat's Piss on a Gooseberry Bush", with a slightly Seussian picture of a cat on
the ...
alt.slack - Dec 18, 1996 by TechnoGoddess Jools - View Thread (30 articles)

Re: Carf Thefts - umra competition
... indeed, there is a wine hailing from New Zealand which refuses to faff
around with mock-Maori and entitles itself unashamedly "Cat's Pee On A
Gooseberry Bush". ...
uk.media.radio.archers - Oct 13, 1999 by Nick Leverton - View Thread (11
articles)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Gooseberries and a Cat.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 25, 1904. p. S3 (1
page)
>From Collier's.
   Not long ago officials of the Department of Agriculture were much amused
by a letter sent the department by an occasional correspondent in Virginia.
   Among other things, the writer hastened to advise Secretary Wilson to this
effect:
   "My wife had a Tame cat that dyd.  Being a Tortureshell and a Grate
faverit, we had the same berred in the Gardin, and for the enrichment of the soil I
had the Carkis deposited under the roots of a Gooseberry Bush.  (The Frute
being up to then of the smooth variety.)  But the next Seson's Frutem after the
Cat was berred, the Gooseberry was all Hairy--and more Remarkable, the
Catapilers of the Same Bush was All of said Hairy description."

    2.  Gooseberries and a Cat.
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 28, 1904. p.
4 (1 page)

    3.  Day By Day Story of the Experirmental Farms; Quadruplet Lambs.
Frank Ridgway. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 15,
1936. p. 11 (1 page)

    4.  Westward Ho!; TREE WAGON. By Evelyn Sibley Lampman. Illustrated by
Robert Frankenberg. 251 pp. New York: Doubleday & Co. $2.75. For Ages 9 to 12.
ROSE FRIEDMAN.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 3,
1954. p. BR22 (1 page)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIOVE.COM)
Daily Review - 6/17/1894
...s torn CAT died and was burled under a GOOSEBERRY BUSH.The next crop of..
Decatur, Illinois Sunday, June 17, 1894  647 k

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CHICAGO TRIBUNE WEATHER GUY DOES IT AGAIN

   I just checked again, with my unexpected ProQuest database access.  He's
now answered this question wrong twice within three months.
   Ten years ago, I first wrote to the Chicago Tribune.  This is never gonna
end!


(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
ASK TOM WHY:[Chicagoland Final , CN Edition]
Tom Skilling. Chicago Tribune. Chicago, Ill.:  May 24, 2004.  pg. 8

Abstract (Article Summary)
It's just the politics. Chicago's "Windy City" nickname was coined in New
York City, and it has no weather connection. In 1893, New York Sun editor Charles
Dana, having grown weary of hearing Chicago politicians boast of the huge
success of Chicago's 1893 World's Columbian Exposition, editorially dubbed
Chicago "that Windy City."


Full Text (201   words)
Copyright 2004 by the Chicago Tribune)


WEATHER REPORT.

Dear Tom,

Since moving to Naperville in December, I have noticed many windy days. My
husband says it is not any more windy here than in any other region. I disagree.
He says the phrase "the Windy City" is the only reason I think this. He
believes it's because of the politicians, and I say it's because of the politics
and the wind.

Dahlia Tusa, Naperville, Ill.

Dear Dahlia,

It's just the politics. Chicago's "Windy City" nickname was coined in New
York City, and it has no weather connection. In 1893, New York Sun editor Charles
Dana, having grown weary of hearing Chicago politicians boast of the huge
success of Chicago's 1893 World's Columbian Exposition, editorially dubbed
Chicago "that Windy City."

Wind records from 255 U.S. cities indicate that 75 cities have higher average
winds than Chicago's 10.4 m.p.h.

----------

Tom Skilling is chief meteorologist at WGN-TV. His forecasts can be seen
Monday through Friday on WGN-TV News at noon and 9 p.m.

Write to: ASK TOM WHY, 2501 Bradley Pl., Chicago, IL 60618 or
asktomwhy at wgntv.com (Mail volume precludes personal response.)

WGN-TV meteorologists Steve Kahn, Richard Koeneman and Paul Dailey plus
weather producer Bill Snyder contribute to this page.


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Jun  4 11:57:13 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 07:57:13 -0400
Subject: "Pop-Pop" revisited
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.075713.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Somehow I missed the original--so, as quoted by James A. Landau:

Joan Houston Hall wrote:

: There's a nice map in Volume IV of DARE showing "pop-pop" to be found
: chiefly in PA, NJ, DE, MD.

I'm from Southern Maryland, and "pop-pop" is, for me, a *great*-grandfather
(I had three living ones during my childhood). "Granddaddy" is my word for a
grandfather.

For completeness, my word for a grandmother is "grandmommy" (though the
younger of my sisters, in an act of what she explicitly describes as
linguistic rebellion, calls her "grandmama"), and my ggmothers were all
"granny".

Interestingly, my ggfathers were differentiated by last name (with the one
who lived 200 feet down the road being unmarked by name), while my
ggmothers, gmothers, and gfathers were not differentiated with names at all.
(Relationship+first name was the system used for most of my relatives,
except cousins, who were first name only.)

TMI or an interesting linguistic note? Y'all be the judges...

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Jun  4 13:08:24 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 09:08:24 -0400
Subject: dirty words in                dictionaries
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.090824.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> > ...But filing-cabinets are not literature. The 100-page index that
> > accompanies the work, with its glossary of technical terms,
> maps, and
> > guides to pronunciation (pilum: pee-loom) reinforces the point.
> This,> she says, is evidence of her ''scholarship''; but who cares
> about her
> > ''scholarship''? She is writing a novel, not a text-book (and she
> > thinks that a fellator irrumates and vice-versa, which does not give
> > one much confidence in her ''scholarship'' either).
>

The standards of scholarship at TLS are very high, indeed.

Ron Butters states:

"I have never seen IRRUMATE used in English to mean 'fuck the mouth', but
maybe I've just missed it.
"I don't find either IRRUMATE or IRRUMATION in any of the English dictionaries that are on my desk at the moment."

As I recall, Gershom Legman was very insistent on the difference between fellation and irrumation; probably in his books on dirty jokes (all 1400 pages) but he was inclined to repeat his whimwham, so it may be in several places there and in some of his other books as well.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun  4 13:16:31 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 09:16:31 -0400
Subject: dirty words in                dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <18ca15418ce498.18ce49818ca154@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.091631.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 09:08:24AM -0400, George Thompson wrote:
>
>  As I recall, Gershom Legman was very insistent on the
> difference between fellation and irrumation; probably in his
> books on dirty jokes (all 1400 pages) but he was inclined to
> repeat his whimwham, so it may be in several places there
> and in some of his other books as well.

The earliest Legman reference to this is likely to be:

_Fellation_ and _irrumation_ are usually given a foreign sound
by leaving off the "n" and putting them in italics or
quotation marks; and although these two terms refer to
exactly opposite practices, they are almost universally
believe to be synonymous. [etc.]

-- G. Legman, "The Language of Homosexuality", in G. W.
Henry _Sex Variants_ II 1151.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  4 13:28:11 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 09:28:11 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20The=20f-word?=
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.092811.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fuck is also apparently a German family name--I remember that there was a
German linguists writing in the 1970s whose name was Fuck. So far as I know, he
never published anything jointly with another scholar (the way, e.g., Postal
and Stamp once did). I have no idea whether or not the German Fuck is related to
fulcher.

In a message dated 6/3/04 9:37:11 PM, douglas at NB.NET writes:


> >The "John le Fucker" reference first appears in Carl Buck's 1949
> >Indo-European dictionary. Buck does not supply a citation as to where he
> >found the name. No one has subsequently found the manuscript in which it is
> >alleged to have appeared.
> >
> >If the citation is genuine and not an error, it is most likely a spelling
> >variant of "fulcher," meaning soldier.
>
> Oxford "Dictionary of English Surnames", under "Fulcher" (with many
> spelling variants):
>
> "... Nicholas Fuker' 1234 ... Warin Fucher 1235 ... John Foucher' 1242 ...
> from OFr Foucher, Fouquier, from OG Fulchar, Fulcher 'people-army'."
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun  4 14:06:30 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:06:30 -0400
Subject: Job: Assistant Editor, Oxford English Dictionary
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.100630.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, we're hiring again. If you or any of your students might be
interested in working for the OED in New York, application info
can be found here:

http://www.us.oup.com/assistandeditoroed/?view=usa

The meat of the posting is:

------
Assistant Editor, Oxford English Dictionary

LOCATION: New York, NY

Job Summary:

Writing and editing North American English entries for the Oxford English Dictionary.

Responsibilities/Duties:

    * Writing new entries for historical and modern American English, Canadian English, and Caribbean English terms.
    * Editing existing OED entries for such terms.
    * Reviewing general OED text to ensure proper coverage of American English
    * Conducting or supervising research, in libraries or online.
    * Recruiting and managing contributors to the OED's North American Reading Program.
    * Performing general administrative duties in the department.

Qualifications:

BA in the humanities (especially English); extremely high
level of attention to detail; clear and elegant writing style;
strong knowledge of American history, literature and culture.
-------

Please do not apply to me directly, but if you know me you should
say so (or have students say so) in the cover letter.

Best,

Jesse Sheidlower
Oxford English Dictionary


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Fri Jun  4 14:22:02 2004
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 15:22:02 +0100
Subject: Port Out, Starboard Home
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.152202.0100.>

My book on folk etymology is to be published in the UK under this
title by Penguin on 1 July. Several members of this list were very
helpful, both directly and through the results of their research,
while I was writing it, among them Fred Shapiro, Jesse Sheidlower,
Laurence Horn, Frank Abate, Barry Popik and Gerald Cohen. They have
been suitably acknowledged, both in the introduction and where
appropriate in the text. The real stories about the Big Apple, hot
dog, jazz, shyster, smart Alec, Windy City, and many other iconic
etymythologies are all there.

Members of this list will, I hope, forgive my boasting a little about
the book, not least because it shows signs of becoming successful.
The British newspaper, the Daily Telegraph, started serialising the
book last Saturday, an unusual thing for a book on language. The
first article is now on the Telegraph's Web site -  you can get to it
using my redirection URL of http://quinion.com?M97Q . (If you find
any errors, it's too late to do anything about them ...)

The book is to be published in the USA in October by the Smithsonian
Institution Press under the title "Ballyhoo, Buckaroo, and Spuds".

End of puff!

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Jun  4 14:29:32 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:29:32 -0400
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
In-Reply-To: <B4E98446-B5D2-11D8-8CAE-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.102932.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>On Jun 3, 2004, at 9:14 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>> Subject:      Re: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>>> On Jun 1, 2004, at 9:33 AM, Dale Coye wrote:
>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster:       Dale Coye <Dalecoye at AOL.COM>
>>>> Subject:      Re: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --
>>>> --------
>>>>
>>>> This reminds me of the Weavers' song-- not sure of the title but the
>>>> first
>>>> line is "We sailed on the ship John D."  --they sing "I feel so
>>>> break-up, I
>>>> wanna go home"   When I heard the Beach Boys version not so long ago
>>>> they changed
>>>> it to "I feel so broke up" which makes more sense to me-- almost in
>>>> the sense
>>>> we're talking about in "stove up"-- can anyone enlighten me on "feel
>>>> so
>>>> break-up?"  why break and not broke?
>>>>
>>>> DF Coye
>>>> The College of NJ
>>>
>>> "The Ship 'John B.'" is a folksong of Caribbean origin - Jamaican, I
>>> think, but maybe not - and uses some form of Caribbean English. Is it
>>> true that the Beach Boys sing "broke up"? I've always heard it as
>>> "break up." My mistake, I guess.
>>>
>>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>> It's actually "The Sloop John B." rather than "The Ship".  I was
>> pretty sure that the standard Beach Boys' recording of the song,
>> presumably adapted by Brian Wilson, did indeed have it "I feel so
>> break up", not "broke up", but a google search confirms Dale's
>> memory, not Wilson's and mine.  I'm puzzled, but resigned.   Maybe
>> they actually sang and recorded it both ways on different occasions?
>>
>> Larry
>>
>
>Re: "sloop" vs. "ship." Quite so. It is indeed "sloop" and I knew that.
>I should have proofread the post before I sent it. My bad. Re: "break
>up" vs. "broke up."
>"Break up" is my story and I'm sticking to it.
>
>-Wilson Gray
~~~~~~~~~
"Break up" is indeed the Weavers' version. The Weavers' Songbook gives the
info: "Words & music adapted by Lee Hays from a collection by Carl
Sandburg."
I haven't heard the Beach Boys version.
A. Murie


A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 14:59:08 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:59:08 -0400
Subject: dirty words in                dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <20040604131631.GA8020@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.105908.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:16 AM -0400 6/4/04, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 09:08:24AM -0400, George Thompson wrote:
>>
>>   As I recall, Gershom Legman was very insistent on the
>>  difference between fellation and irrumation; probably in his
>>  books on dirty jokes (all 1400 pages) but he was inclined to
>>  repeat his whimwham, so it may be in several places there
>>  and in some of his other books as well.
>
>The earliest Legman reference to this is likely to be:
>
>_Fellation_ and _irrumation_ are usually given a foreign sound
>by leaving off the "n" and putting them in italics or
>quotation marks; and although these two terms refer to
>exactly opposite practices, they are almost universally
>believe to be synonymous. [etc.]
>
>-- G. Legman, "The Language of Homosexuality", in G. W.
>Henry _Sex Variants_ II 1151.

While not normally a prescriptivist, I think it important to maintain
the distinction in the classical form.  The examples trotted out to
illustrate the converse opposition (or what Aristotle called
correlation) in lexical semantics have grown stale from overuse
(double/half, parent/child, own/belong to, fear/frighten, taller
than/shorter than), and I think it would be useful to illustrate the
relation for our students by citing fellate/irrumate.

Larry


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun  4 15:01:30 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:01:30 -0500
Subject: Acronyms (was: Phat(t), etc)
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.100130.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another one that gets pronounced as a word:
WYSIWYG - wizzywig
What You See Is What You Get


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 15:05:59 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 11:05:59 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries
In-Reply-To: <20040604000203.GA10885@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.110559.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> Yes. I'd like to see how it defines "irrumare", or any of its
> relatives (irrumatio, irrumator). This word, which means 'to
>
> P.S. "futuere" might be another one worth checking, of course.

Since I am preventing Larry Horn from checking by holding on to Yale's
copy, I guess I'm obligated to look.  Neither of these two terms is
included in the Wessely dictionary, unfortunately.  The appearance of
"cunt" may be an isolated instance of taboo English vocabulary creeping
in.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 15:25:42 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 11:25:42 -0400
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
In-Reply-To: <l03130300bce636b1bcbd@[12.107.143.157]>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.112542.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:29 AM -0400 6/4/04, sagehen wrote:
>~~~~~~~~~
>"Break up" is indeed the Weavers' version.

and, if at least one web site is to be believed, also the Kingston
Trio's, which I may have mentally blended with the Beach Boys',
assuming the latter really did sing "broke up", as it now appears.

larry

>The Weavers' Songbook gives the
>info: "Words & music adapted by Lee Hays from a collection by Carl
>Sandburg."
>I haven't heard the Beach Boys version.
>A. Murie
>
>
>A&M Murie
>N. Bangor NY
>sagehen at westelcom.com


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jun  4 15:34:32 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 08:34:32 -0700
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
In-Reply-To: <p04320408bce644889837@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.083432.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 4, 2004, at 8:25 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> At 10:29 AM -0400 6/4/04, sagehen wrote:
>> ~~~~~~~~~
>> "Break up" is indeed the Weavers' version.
>
> and, if at least one web site is to be believed, also the Kingston
> Trio's, which I may have mentally blended with the Beach Boys',
> assuming the latter really did sing "broke up", as it now appears.

the Beach Boys' version, from Lyrics Depot:

  We come on the sloop John B
My grandfather and me
Around Nassau town we did roam
Drinking all night
Got into a fight
Well I feel so broke up
I want to go home

So hoist up the John B's sail
See how the mainsail sets
Call for the Captain ashore
Let me go home, let me go home
I wanna go home, yeah yeah
Well I feel so broke up
I wanna go home

The first mate he got drunk
And broke in the Cap'n's trunk
The constable had to come and take him away
Sheriff John Stone
Why don't you leave me alone, yeah yeah
Well I feel so broke up I wanna go home

So hoist up the John B's sail
See how the mainsail sets
Call for the Captain ashore
Let me go home, let me go home
I wanna go home, let me go home
Why don't you let me go home
(Hoist up the John B's sail)
Hoist up the John B
I feel so broke up I wanna go home
Let me go home

The poor cook he caught the fits
And threw away all my grits
And then he took and he ate up all of my corn
Let me go home
Why don't they let me go home
This is the worst trip I've ever been on

So hoist up the John B's sail
See how the mainsail sets
Call for the Captain ashore
Let me go home, let me go home
I wanna go home, let me go home
Why don't you let me go home


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun  4 15:41:22 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 11:41:22 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <OCEFKEEBCCDKPHIMICJGIEKBCJAA.dave@wilton.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.114122.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:07 PM -0700 6/2/04, Dave Wilton wrote:
>
>The other explanation is that "snafu," and its less well-known variants like
>"tarfu," arose in the military--an environment given to coining technical
>acronyms. In fact, the number of "snafu" variants that have come out of WWII
>point to the conclusion that the coinages were a joke about the army's
>penchant for acronyms.
>

That's what I've always assumed about "snafu", "fubar", and their
families; indeed, this penchant partly explains why the usual story
on the origin of "jeep" as an acronym (< General Purpose vehicle) has
had such a long and successful life, despite the fact that in this
case it appears to be an etymythology (from the evidence discussed in
earlier threads on the list).  A parallel case to "snafu" is the
example of "wizzywig" < What You See Is What You Get, mentioned
elsewhere, which plays off the prevalence of acronyms (albeit often
pronounced as initialisms) in technical writing.  WYSIWIG is a
pseudo-techie acronym in the same way that SNAFU is a
pseudo-military/governmental/bureaucratic one.  Another possible
candidate is GOMER (which, as some here have speculated, may not
actually have arisen as an acronym of "Get Out of My Emergency Room").

larry


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jun  4 15:42:19 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 08:42:19 -0700
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
In-Reply-To: <l03130300bce636b1bcbd@[12.107.143.157]>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.084219.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 4, 2004, at 7:29 AM, A. Murie wrote:

> ...The Weavers' Songbook gives the info: "Words & music adapted by Lee
> Hays from a collection by Carl Sandburg."

American Song Bag (1927).  apparently there's a version in alan lomax's
Folk Songs of North-America (1960).

the song appears under various titles:
   The Wreck of the John B
   The Wreck of the Sloop John B
   Sloop John B
   The John B's Sails


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Jun  4 16:03:02 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 11:03:02 -0500
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.110302.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> There are indeed
> bac(k)ronyms of this sort--the PATRIOT Act is a recent
> example, or SPECTRE from the old James Bond books, or (I
> assume) the WAVES. . . .

The U.S. Army Missile Command (my employer) is full of these
backronyms --
PATRIOT Missile: Phased Array Tracking Radar Intercept On Target
ATACMS Missile: ("Attack 'ems") Army Tactical Missile System
BAT Submunition:  Brilliant AnTiarmor Submunition (this one is
awkward, but was contrived because the sensor on the BAT is an
acoustic one, like the mammal).
HAWK Missile:  Homing All the Way Killer

and the other services:
HARM  High speed Anti Radiation Missile
ALARM   Air Launched Anti Radiation Missile


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Jun  4 19:44:11 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 15:44:11 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040604021606.02f12b70@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.154411.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Doug Wilson writes:
>  The "situation normal"
>part has the smell of a backronym. I could be wrong, of course.
>
>--
It doesn't seem too unlikely to me that "situation normal" was an actual
expression in use, though whether as /legitimate/ military jargon or
mocking slang I wouldn't guess.  The army classified things with pretty
hilarious labels, from a native English-speaking POV.  We had for years
kicking about among our belongings an OD cloth object with a label  which
read "Cover Bag Sleeping Mountain," a relic of my partner's WWII service.
If he is a representative example,  both "snafu" & "fubar" were used by GIs
('43-'45) in the understanding that they were indeed acronyms.
A. Murie


A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Jun  4 20:40:56 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 16:40:56 -0400
Subject: Phat,&c
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.164056.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

P.S.
SOP (standard operating procedure), OTOH, was not spoken as "sop" but
spelled out, "ESS OH PEE."  (like the  PEE ESS, above)
A. Murie

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun  4 21:12:21 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 17:12:21 -0400
Subject: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
In-Reply-To: <20040604040039.DA646228D5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.171221.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>
sez


        >>>


The longer phrase _rip off a piece/hunk/etc._ does indeed
exist, and is attested at least as far back as the 1930s; I
assume it is the origin.

        <<<

I remember a similar term from the classic collection of Appalachian
folklore _Pissing in the Snow_, in a story which may be called something
like "The Decoy". Without giving away the point of the story, after a couple
has cheerfully had sex, they talk a bit, and then "they tore off another
hunk".  I can't be more precise because I'm quoting from memory.

Presumably the original metaphor was tearing off another hunk from a loaf of
bread or something similar.

-- Mark Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun  4 21:16:34 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 17:16:34 -0400
Subject: rip off
In-Reply-To: <20040604040039.DA646228D5@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.171634.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray:



        >>>

I've already been taken to task wrt to my unfortunate habit of failing
to express myself clearly. For that, I must again beg indulgence. I
have no problem whatsoever wrt the sexual reference of "rip off." My
question is, what could have motivated the total *loss* of the sexual
reading and what could have brought it about so quickly, so that I've
heard "rip off" with the sexual reading used in live speech only one
time by one person, despite the ubiquity of the locution? The word
"screw," for example, retains its sexual reading. Even "jazz" retains
its sexual reading. Why not "rip off"? There's probably no answer to
that question, but it never hurts to ask.

        <<<

what's the basis For assuming that it originally had a sexual reading and
then lost it? isn't it equally likely that what you heard was a one-time
usage or a usage derived from the meaning of 'steal; rob'?

-- Mark Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun  4 21:47:57 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 17:47:57 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20Re:=20dirty=20words=20in=A0dictionaries?=
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.174757.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/4/04 10:59:31 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:


> I think it would be useful to illustrate the
> relation for our students by citing fellate/irrumate
>

citing, yes

sighting or (especially) site-ing, no


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Jun  5 00:00:00 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 20:00:00 -0400
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.200000.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Carl Sandburg's "American Songbag" version was "break up."  I checked in a
version on Amazon "inside the book."

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"


> On Jun 4, 2004, at 7:29 AM, A. Murie wrote:
>
> > ...The Weavers' Songbook gives the info: "Words & music adapted by Lee
> > Hays from a collection by Carl Sandburg."
>
> American Song Bag (1927).  apparently there's a version in alan lomax's
> Folk Songs of North-America (1960).
>
> the song appears under various titles:
>    The Wreck of the John B
>    The Wreck of the Sloop John B
>    Sloop John B
>    The John B's Sails
>


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Jun  5 00:20:50 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 17:20:50 -0700
Subject: "all stove up"-- "I feel so break-up"
In-Reply-To: <003101c44a90$0bf506d0$3d611941@sam>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.172050.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 4, 2004, at 5:00 PM, Sam Clements wrote:

> Carl Sandburg's "American Songbag" version was "break up."  I checked
> in a version on Amazon "inside the book."

i'd be interested in hearing the recording lomax made in jamaica in the
30s.  like, was there actually a [z] in "Cap'n's trunk"?  a [v] in
"I've ever been on"?  a [t] (or glottal stop) in "don't"?

the Beach Boys' printed lyrics have "want to" on its first occurrence,
but "wanna" thereafter.  hmmm...  they also have "let me (go home)" all
the way through, and i *think* that's right for the version they sang,
but there might have been some instances of "lemme" in the jamaican
version.

such details vary from performance to performance, of course.

arnold


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun  5 03:28:42 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 23:28:42 -0400
Subject: rip off
In-Reply-To: <200406041416.1bwm3i1TR3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.JUN.2004.232842.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 4, 2004, at 5:16 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: rip off
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson Gray:
>
>
>
>>>>
>
> I've already been taken to task wrt to my unfortunate habit of failing
> to express myself clearly. For that, I must again beg indulgence. I
> have no problem whatsoever wrt the sexual reference of "rip off." My
> question is, what could have motivated the total *loss* of the sexual
> reading and what could have brought it about so quickly, so that I've
> heard "rip off" with the sexual reading used in live speech only one
> time by one person, despite the ubiquity of the locution? The word
> "screw," for example, retains its sexual reading. Even "jazz" retains
> its sexual reading. Why not "rip off"? There's probably no answer to
> that question, but it never hurts to ask.
>
>         <<<
>
> what's the basis For assuming that it originally had a sexual reading
> and
> then lost it? isn't it equally likely that what you heard was a
> one-time
> usage or a usage derived from the meaning of 'steal; rob'?
>
> -- Mark Mandel
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>
Yes, I agree, in general, though I doubt the possibility of a
connection of "steal" with "have sexual intercourse" in BE. There's no
glory in copping a taste of strange through the use of alcohol or some
other drug.
It could also have been an in-group usage among the women. They weren't
people with whom I ordinarily consorted, only friends of a friend. The
fact that I never heard the sexual usage again could very well stem
merely from the fact that I was never again in the presence of these
particular women.
Perhaps this just a case of not seeing the forest for the trees.

-Wilson Gray


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun  5 04:35:33 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 00:35:33 -0400
Subject: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
In-Reply-To: <200406041412.1bwlZe2Wh3NZFlr0@killdeer>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.003533.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 4, 2004, at 5:12 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>
> sez
>
>
>>>>
>
>
> The longer phrase _rip off a piece/hunk/etc._ does indeed
> exist, and is attested at least as far back as the 1930s; I
> assume it is the origin.
>
>         <<<
>
> I remember a similar term from the classic collection of Appalachian
> folklore _Pissing in the Snow_, in a story which may be called
> something
> like "The Decoy". Without giving away the point of the story, after a
> couple
> has cheerfully had sex, they talk a bit, and then "they tore off
> another
> hunk".  I can't be more precise because I'm quoting from memory.
>
> Presumably the original metaphor was tearing off another hunk from a
> loaf of
> bread or something similar.
>
> -- Mark Mandel
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

I must apologize yet a third time for failing to express myself
clearly. I am in no way unaware or doubtful of the existence of
"rip/tear/knock off a piece" and the numerous permutations thereof. It
has been an active part of my vocabulary for more than half a century.
The Appalachian reference, however, is intriguing. In my childhood in
East Texas, a word that sounded like "kyahn" was used by my parents and
grandparents with a meaning something like "an otherwise-unidentified
substance with a disgusting odor," since it occurred only in sentences
like "That smells/stinks like/as bad as kyahn." I've never heard
"kyahn" used by *anyone* outside of my immediate family. Nevertheless,
about 35 years later, while thumbing through a book on the vocabulary
of *Ozark* English, what before my wondering eyes should appear but the
citation, "kyahn. n. carrion." It blew my mind, to say the least.
Unfortunately, I'm unable to recall the title or the author of the
lexicon.

-Wilson Gray
>


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun  5 05:16:32 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 01:16:32 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <200406041242.1bwkAn5wf3NZFk70@mamo>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.011632.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 4, 2004, at 3:44 PM, sagehen wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>  Doug Wilson writes:
>>  The "situation normal"
>> part has the smell of a backronym. I could be wrong, of course.
>>
>> --
> It doesn't seem too unlikely to me that "situation normal" was an
> actual
> expression in use, though whether as /legitimate/ military jargon or
> mocking slang I wouldn't guess.  The army classified things with pretty
> hilarious labels, from a native English-speaking POV.  We had for years
> kicking about among our belongings an OD cloth object with a label
> which
> read "Cover Bag Sleeping Mountain," a relic of my partner's WWII
> service.
> If he is a representative example,  both "snafu" & "fubar" were used
> by GIs
> ('43-'45) in the understanding that they were indeed acronyms.
> A. Murie
>
>
> A&M Murie
> N. Bangor NY
> sagehen at westelcom.com

Figmo "fuck it; got my orders," probably belongs in the same class as
snafu and fubar. For you civilians out there, the point is that, having
*in hand* orders - FNE W/P O/A etc. - transferring you from post A to
post B, you are no longer subject to the rules and regulations in
effect at post A and not yet subject to the rules and regulations in
effect at post B. You've received a mini-furlough. I emphasize "in
hand" because knowledge is not power in the military. It has to be
backed up with paperwork.

-Wilson Gray
>


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun  5 05:52:29 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 01:52:29 -0400
Subject: Lyrics as posted on the Web
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.015229.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Lyrics as found on the Web aren't necessarily correct. I was looking at
the words to the hip-hop song, "Back That Azz Up" and I saw:

Girl, you looks fine! Won't you back that azz up?

I thought, That's funny. I thought it was "why don't you..." and not
"won't you..." So, I got out the CD, listened to it a dozen times or
more, and, each time, I definitely heard "why don't you..." However,
given that what was sung sounded pretty much like "hwah 'onchuh," it's
easy to understand that someone else might hear "won't you..."
I once thought that a song had the title, "S.O.S. El Amor." Given that
there was also a song titled "The Ship of Love," my interpretation
seemed to make perfect sense. The title was actually "Eso Es El Amor."

-Wilson Gray


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun  5 06:11:50 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 02:11:50 -0400
Subject: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
In-Reply-To: <200406040841.1bwgOYn83NZFkZ0@quail>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.021150.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 4, 2004, at 11:41 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 5:07 PM -0700 6/2/04, Dave Wilton wrote:
>>
>> The other explanation is that "snafu," and its less well-known
>> variants like
>> "tarfu," arose in the military--an environment given to coining
>> technical
>> acronyms. In fact, the number of "snafu" variants that have come out
>> of WWII
>> point to the conclusion that the coinages were a joke about the army's
>> penchant for acronyms.
>>
>
> That's what I've always assumed about "snafu", "fubar", and their
> families; indeed, this penchant partly explains why the usual story
> on the origin of "jeep" as an acronym (< General Purpose vehicle) has
> had such a long and successful life, despite the fact that in this
> case it appears to be an etymythology (from the evidence discussed in
> earlier threads on the list).  A parallel case to "snafu" is the
> example of "wizzywig" < What You See Is What You Get, mentioned
> elsewhere, which plays off the prevalence of acronyms (albeit often
> pronounced as initialisms) in technical writing.  WYSIWIG is a
> pseudo-techie acronym in the same way that SNAFU is a
> pseudo-military/governmental/bureaucratic one.  Another possible
> candidate is GOMER (which, as some here have speculated, may not
> actually have arisen as an acronym of "Get Out of My Emergency Room").
>
> larry

"G.I." is another member of the "jeep" class. When I was in the Army, I
don't think that I heard the word "government" spoken in reference to
anything. I heard plenty of "standard issue," "Army issue," and even
plain "issue," but I never heard "government issue." A jeep was called
a "jeep," but its official designation was "one-quarter ton utility
vehicle," according to the paperwork that I had to fill out to take one
out of the motor pool.

-Wilson Gray
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  5 14:30:35 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 10:30:35 EDT
Subject: Pupusas (1947)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.103035.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    Just a brief post before I go to the New York Public Library to give
David Shulman some money (for the typist of his poems).  This is what I do when
I'm let out of a week of parking tickets.
    For laughs, go to the NYPL home page at www.nypl.org.  In the left column
is "The People's University" and "Tell your NYPL story."  If you say that you
met Gerald Cohen in the New York Public Library and you solved the Big Apple
here, you're a piece of garbage and no one listens to you.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
PUPUSA

   I checked again for the CHICAGO TRIBUNE.  How did I miss the 1947 NEW YORK
TIMES cite?
   I'll tell you how.  I'd typed in "pupusa."  I didn't type in "pupusas."
ProQuest is supposed to search for both, but somehow it didn't here.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("pupusa")
    1.  Latinos Hold Heritage Day
By Betty Medsger Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times
Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jul 30, 1972. p. B3 (1 page)

    2.  Display Ad 216 -- No Title
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 21, 1976. p.
163 (1 page)

    3.  Gathering Friends & Family To Enjoy Pupusas
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 14, 1982. p.
E18 (1 page)



(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("pupusas")
    1.  LATIN-AMERICAN LOG: EL SALVADOR; Good Roads in a Small Country, Good
Food In Its Capital
By ARTHUR GOODFRIEND. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May
11, 1947. p. X15 (1 page):
   La Cruzadilla, roadside rest venfing the best pupusas in town...Pupusas,
Salvadoran specialty tortillas, or corncakes, filled with cheese, beans, or
pork cracklings--or wonder of wonders, all three mixed--piping hot, at a penny a
piece.

    2.  Latinos Hold Heritage Day
By Betty Medsger Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post, Times
Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jul 30, 1972. p. B3 (1 page)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  5 15:22:26 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 11:22:26 EDT
Subject: Guesstimate (1904, 1928); Shrimp Wiggle (1904, 1907)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.112226.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   2004--a century of "guesstimate" and "shrimp wiggle."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
GUESSTIMATE

   It's a little earlier now (I had posted the second cite below, where it
was "coined"), but it may have been re-invented.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Other 2 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 15, 1904. p. 6 (1 page)
:
   "ALL the same," declares the Troy (N. Y.) Times, "the census estimate is
undoubtedly more reliable than Chicago guesswork."  Out here it is considered
merely a census guesstimate.

    2.  'GUESSTIMATE' APPRAISAL.; Realtor Coins New Word to Express Careless
Methods.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 6, 1928. p. 197 (1
page)

    3.  "GUESSTIMATE."
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 15, 1929. p. 7 (1
page)

    4.  "GUESSTIMATE."
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 15, 1929. p. 6 (1
page)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SHRIMP WIGGLE

   Oh, those naughty shrimp!
   I'd posted on naked shrimp, dancing shrimp, and singing shrimp, so it's
time to take another look at the shrimp wiggle.  Sure enough, the Chicago
Tribune is first.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Luncheon Dishes.; Shrimp Wiggle. SECOND PRIZE. $5.
MRS. E H LOWE. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 29,
1907. p. F3 (1 page) :
   A good Sunday night tea dish is a shrimp wiggle with sandwiches.  Pour one
pint rich milk or cream into your chafing dish.  When near boiling point
thicken with one tablespoon flour rolled into one of butter.  Add one can or one
pint fresh shrimps.  Stew four minutes.  Add one-fourth can green peas.  Boil
up once and serve on squares of hot buttered toast.
   Sandwiches to accompany above: Pour one-half pint boiling water on one
package pineapple jello on Saturday and pour it into a square, shallow mold.
When ready for your sandwiches set the mold for an instant into boiling water.
Invert on a dish and slice with a warm knife.  Place each slice between two of
nut bread cut thin and trim off the uneven sides.
   Another good filling for sandwiches is made of one roll of neufchatel
cheese mixed with one tablespoonful of white bar le duc jelly.  Spread this
mixture between thin slices of white bread, buttered.
MRS. E. H. LOWE,
1325 School Street, Rockford, Ill.

    2.  Some of the Fine Art of Chafing Dish Cookery -- Recipes That Every
Good Housewife Should Know.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 8, 1911. p. X7 (1
page)

    3.  Display Ad 10 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 2, 1927. p. 12 (1 page)


    4.  Display Ad 4 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 26, 1927. p. 4 (1 page)


    5.  CHEF WYMAN'S Suggestion's For TOMORROWS MENU; SHRIMP WIGGLE PATTIES
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 10, 1928. p.
A8 (1 page)

    6.  Handy Hints To Help the Homemaker; Shrimp Wiggle, Relish Salad, Fudge
Frosting, Chocolate Brownies Outlawed in Recipes -- Sunday Tea Menu.
By LOUISE BENNETT WEAVER.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.:
Oct 19, 1928. p. 11 (1 page)

    7.  Jane's Cooking Corner; SHRIEMP WIGGLE
gane E Hall. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul
21, 1929. p. J8 (1 page)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Indianapolis Star - 10/23/1910
...s, will be tUft chafing dlbh such as SHRIMP WIGGLE; Golden Buck, English..
Indianapolis, Indiana Sunday, October 23, 1910  770 k

Indianapolis Star - 11/4/1910
...morning or from 2 to 4 this afternoon. SHRIMP WIGGLE, OOLDKN BUCK AND
WELSH..
Indianapolis, Indiana Friday, November 04, 1910  949 k

Altoona Mirror - 2/10/1904
...Two day Alii End Sale Price Try SHRIMP WIGGLE At the Armour.....tomorrow,
and try a free sample of SHRIMP WIGGLE at the Armour..
Altoona, Pennsylvania Wednesday, February 10, 1904  667 k
Page 5, col. 5:
    _Try Shrimp Wiggle_
   At the Armour Demonstration.

   Step down to the basement, tomorrow, and try a free sample of Shrimp
Wiggle at the Armour demonstration booth.  A delicious delicacy when made of Armour
preparations.
   Armour's Extract of Beef, Asparox, Tomato Buillon, etc., on sale at the
tea and coffee counter.

GABLE AND CO.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun  5 16:29:58 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 12:29:58 EDT
Subject: Shrimp Wiggle (1901)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.122958.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Sorry about that.  Give me some wiggle room here.


(GOOGLE) ("Feeding America")
http://digital.lib.msu.edu/cookbooks/searchresultswithin.cfm
Lobster Wiggle
The Good Housekeeping Woman's Home Cook Book. Chicago: Reilly & Britton, 1909

SHRIMP WIGGLE--Patties
The Settlement Cook Book: Containing Many Recipes Used In Settlement Cooking
Classes, The Milwaukee Public School Cooking Centers And Gathered From Various
Other Reliable Sources / Compiled By Mrs. Simon Kander. Milwaukee: [s.n.],
1901.


(Lobster Wiggle?  Do lobsters sing and dance naked, too?  Surely, a clawing
performance?--ed.)


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Sat Jun  5 17:45:32 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 13:45:32 -0400
Subject: Acronyms (was: Phat(t), etc)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.134532.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just to reply to Doug Wilson, who said:

'I do doubt "fubar" as a
genuine acronym because the supposed expansion includes the word "all"
which doesn't really belong.'

'Beyond all recognition' is a perfectly good idiom for me;  'beyond recognition'
feels as if there's something 'missing'.  I do agree that the 'all' doesn't
really add anything to the phrase;  I ascribe its presence to a desire by users
to stress that there is absolutely no possibility of recognising a thing that
has been (verb)ed, or is (adjective), to the extent described.

I think it's an emphasis phenomenon along the same lines as 'They haven't yet
notified ourselves':  the *-selves* is of course wrong for classical English
grammar but it has been added by users of English in business (I think) to
emphasise the centrality in the situation of the person referred to.  I could
imagine that people who would say 'They haven't yet notified ourselves' would
also have coined 'beyond all recognition' to emphasise that even the advanced
methods of recognition available to them as a specialist, and not to the
layman, would have failed at the recognition task described.

A Google search on 'beyond all recognition' reveals lots of tokens;  most either
are 'Fucked/Fouled Up Beyond All Recognition' or phrases clearly derived from
that one, but some are not:  'disgusting beyond all recognition', 'they have
butchered the story beyond all recognition', etc.

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Sat Jun  5 17:56:55 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 13:56:55 -0400
Subject: "Pop-pop" revisited
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.135655.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Someone asked, a couple of days ago:

'I wonder if anyone knows whether either
Papa/Papaw or Pop Pop is used in Britain?'

I have never heard 'Papa/Papaw' used as a title for a grandfather (come to that,
I don't think I've actually ever heard anyone use 'Papa' for a father, whether
it's 'paPAH' or 'PAp@';  it strikes me as archaic and/or upper-class (I'm
middle-class), and I think I've only seen it written in non-twentieth-century
fiction, in the twentieth-century fiction of PG Wodehouse and in the plays of
Oscar Wilde.

I've never heard an unquestionable British use of 'Pop Pop' for a grandfather
either.  However, there's a friend of our family, British, middle-class and
born in the mid-70s, who referred to her grandfather as 'popp@'.  At least,
that was the way I always heard it;  I don't know whether there was a [p] at
the end or not, so it could conceivably have been either 'Pop-pop' or 'Poppa'.

The overwhelmingly most popular British title for a grandfather is 'Grandad' or,
much less commonly but pronounced the same, the spelling 'Grand-dad'.

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun  5 18:18:06 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 14:18:06 -0400
Subject: Acronyms (was: Phat(t), etc)
In-Reply-To: <1086457532.40c206bcbaf9d@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.141806.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>'I do doubt "fubar" as a
>genuine acronym because the supposed expansion includes the word "all"
>which doesn't really belong.'
>
>'Beyond all recognition' is a perfectly good idiom for me; ....

I concede this point.

It's not sufficient for the idiom to look good to many people or even to
most people in 2004; the question is whether it was routinely used pre-1940
... and it WAS quite routinely used, according to quick text search which I
should have done before making any remark (sorry) ... I did some sort of
search on this years ago, with a different result, probably because of
inadequate databases and/or errors on my part.

I withdraw this objection.

I'm glad somebody is keeping me honest.

-- Doug Wilson


From pds at VISI.COM  Sat Jun  5 20:52:11 2004
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 15:52:11 -0500
Subject: "Pop-Pop" revisited
In-Reply-To: <20040603213144.D5B554AE5@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.155211.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I checked with one set of mor-mor/pa-pa users.  They confirmed Beverly's
version of the Swedish system.  It turns out that in their family there is
a large group of cousins who would frequently get together.  Rather than
some using mor-more and mor-far and others using far-mor and far-far, they
all compromised on mor-mor and pa-pa (pah-pah) for grandmother and
grandfather Enquist.

--Tom Kysilko

At 6/3/2004 05:29 PM -0400, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Ah, but that's a whole nother set--mormor, morfar, farmor, and farfar (I
>think I have them right--mother's mother, mother's father, etc.).  My
>sister is mormor to her grandson, but her husband (were he alive) would be
>morfar.  I've never heard pa-pa used for grandfather among Scandinavian
>Americans, but I've been away from Minnesota for a long while.  (My
>colleague, who knows Finnish and Swedish pretty well, says his Finnish
>in-laws use Pa-pa for g-father, but he's never heard Swedes do so.)


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun  5 21:40:13 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 17:40:13 -0400
Subject: The Sloop John B.
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.174013.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As Larry Horn suggested, there is more than one version of The Sloop
John B. as sung by The Beach Boys.

There's a Beach Boys version with Brian singing lead in which he
clearly sings, "I feel so broke up."

There's a Beach Boys version with Carl singing lead in which he clearly
sings, "I feel so break up," undoubtedly the version with which Larry
and I are most familiar and, therefore, clearly must be regarded as the
canonical version.;-)

There's a Beach Boys version with both singing lead in which one sings
"break up" as the other sings "broke up."

  There is a Beach Boys version with the words, "broke in the captain's
trunk."

There is a Beach Boys version with the words, "broke in the people's
trunk."

Further searching would, no doubt, yield further versions with still
more variations in the words.

-Wilson Gray


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun  5 22:04:55 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 15:04:55 -0700
Subject: "Pop-pop" revisited
In-Reply-To: <200406051056.1bwFpDTv3NZFl40@penguin>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.150455.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>...I have never heard 'Papa/Papaw' used as a title for a grandfather
>(come to that,
>I don't think I've actually ever heard anyone use 'Papa' for a father,
...
Both of my parents called their respective fathers "Papa."  Maybe it
was a Yiddish thing?  My generation called my mother's father Grandpa
and my father's father ZAYdee.

Rima


From preston at MSU.EDU  Sat Jun  5 22:11:44 2004
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 18:11:44 -0400
Subject: "Pop-pop" revisited
In-Reply-To: <a06020401bce7d8b080d2@[192.168.1.4]>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.181144.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Some of these facts are clearly dialectal and have, I think, to do
with the phonetic status of /a/. For me it is a lax vowel and cannot
occupy open syllable position. For my Milwaukee wife it appears to be
a tense vowel and can. She speaks, for example, of a 'ma and pa
store' with the vowel of 'hot'; for me it must be a 'maw and paw
store' with the vowel of 'caught.' (Canadians, many New Englanders,
and all the west of the US who lack the caught-cot distinction are
clearly beyond the pale - or below the pale-bucket line - in this
discussion.)
That phonetic fact, however, does not preclude distinctive uses of
the forms themselves of course. For me, paw-paw and maw-maw (with the
caught vowel, if you know what I mean) were grandparents.

dInIs


>>...I have never heard 'Papa/Papaw' used as a title for a grandfather
>>(come to that,
>>I don't think I've actually ever heard anyone use 'Papa' for a father,
>...
>Both of my parents called their respective fathers "Papa."  Maybe it
>was a Yiddish thing?  My generation called my mother's father Grandpa
>and my father's father ZAYdee.
>
>Rima


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Sat Jun  5 23:15:02 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 19:15:02 -0400
Subject: "Pop-pop" revisited
In-Reply-To: <a06020400bce7f4447a55@[24.11.166.109]>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.191502.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here in SE Ohio it's sometimes Pawpaw and Mawmaw but more often Paepaw and
Maemaw (the first syllable has the low front vowel), usually spelled Papaw
and Mamaw.

At 06:11 PM 6/5/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Some of these facts are clearly dialectal and have, I think, to do
>with the phonetic status of /a/. For me it is a lax vowel and cannot
>occupy open syllable position. For my Milwaukee wife it appears to be
>a tense vowel and can. She speaks, for example, of a 'ma and pa
>store' with the vowel of 'hot'; for me it must be a 'maw and paw
>store' with the vowel of 'caught.' (Canadians, many New Englanders,
>and all the west of the US who lack the caught-cot distinction are
>clearly beyond the pale - or below the pale-bucket line - in this
>discussion.)
>That phonetic fact, however, does not preclude distinctive uses of
>the forms themselves of course. For me, paw-paw and maw-maw (with the
>caught vowel, if you know what I mean) were grandparents.
>
>dInIs
>
>
>>>...I have never heard 'Papa/Papaw' used as a title for a grandfather
>>>(come to that,
>>>I don't think I've actually ever heard anyone use 'Papa' for a father,
>>...
>>Both of my parents called their respective fathers "Papa."  Maybe it
>>was a Yiddish thing?  My generation called my mother's father Grandpa
>>and my father's father ZAYdee.
>>
>>Rima
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
>        Asian and African Languages
>Wells Hall A-740
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>Office: (517) 353-0740
>Fax: (517) 432-2736


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Sun Jun  6 00:54:53 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 19:54:53 -0500
Subject: kyarn
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.195453.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In my childhood in
>East Texas, a word that sounded like "kyahn" was used by my parents and
>grandparents with a meaning something like "an otherwise-unidentified
>substance with a disgusting odor," since it occurred only in sentences
>like "That smells/stinks like/as bad as kyahn." I've never heard
>"kyahn" used by *anyone* outside of my immediate family. Nevertheless,
>about 35 years later, while thumbing through a book on the vocabulary
>of *Ozark* English, what before my wondering eyes should appear but the
>citation, "kyahn. n. carrion." It blew my mind, to say the least.
>Unfortunately, I'm unable to recall the title or the author of the
>lexicon.

My wife's maternal grandmother is in her 80's, and grew up/lives in
south Georgia (Douglas, Nicholls).  My wife picked up from her side
of the family "kyarn", meaning carrion (note the "r").  The best decription
is kyarn is what a dog will roll in just before it
comes inside and rubs against you.  The stinkier, the better.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  6 00:57:07 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 20:57:07 -0400
Subject: Test of a/the Champion (1949); OT: Ronald Reagan
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.205707.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OT:  RONALD REAGAN

   Ronald Reagan has died.

---------------------------------------------------------------
TEST OF A/THE CHAMPION

   Smarty Jones lost the last leg of the Triple Crown, like many horses before him.


(GOOGLE)
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040606/D831651O0.html
Smarty Jones Fails in Triple Crown Bid
Jun 5, 8:17 PM (ET)
By RICHARD ROSENBLATT
NEW YORK (AP) - Smarty Jones lost his Triple Crown bid and his perfect record when Birdstone ran him down near the finish of Saturday's thrilling Belmont Stakes, toppling his chance to end a record 26-year drought without a winner of thoroughbred racing's most coveted prize.

The little red chestnut was poised to become the 12th Triple Crown champion when he turned for home, but Birdstone came flying down the stretch and took the lead inside the 16th pole to win by a length.

That move dashed yet another Triple Crown hopeful's attempt to do what no horse has managed since Affirmed in 1978.

(...)

And so, the exclusive little club of 11 Triple Crown champions remains the same. And Smarty Jones is now the 18th horse to come tantalizingly close to winning it all, only to be tripped up in a race known as the "Test of the Champion."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("test of a champion" + "Belmont")
Lima News - 5/23/1971
...hAve won .n the lAst 10 BELMONTs, The TEST OF A ChAmpion At'l milles. both.....rAcing immorAlity. EAch fAiled in the BELMONT. Other beAten BELMONT fAvorites..
Lima, Ohio   Sunday, May 23, 1971  935 k

Mansfield News Journal - 6/19/1956
...celebrAtefl rAce is AmericA's truest TEST OF A chAmpion, And most horsemen.....lied Smith NEW A mAn showed Up At BELMONT cArrying piece OF pAper, A..
Mansfield, Ohio   Tuesday, June 19, 1956  748 k

Independent - 6/19/1956
...TO prove it. Over 10 00 010 310 000 -TEST OF A chAmpion, And most horsemen.....0000 .the better pArt OF A century, BELMONT hAs insisted with o o o modesty..
Pasadena, California   Tuesday, June 19, 1956  772 k

Reno Evening Gazette - 6/15/1940
...AssociAted Press Sports Writer The TEST OF A chAmpion is whAt is sometimes.....beAten by AnnibAl in A recent rAce At BELMONT PArk. The two will renew their..
Reno, Nevada   Saturday, June 15, 1940  803 k


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("test of the champion" and "Belmont")
Lincoln Evening Journal - 6/10/1960
...for THE most victories in this "TEST OF THE CHAMPION." Earlier this week.....shoots for a record 7th triumph in THE BELMONT Stakes Saturday at BELMONT Park..
Lincoln, Nebraska   Friday, June 10, 1960  747 k

Atchison Daily Globe - 6/10/1956
...C V.'Whifcney entry OF Career j TEST OF THE CHAMPION. Boy and Jazz Age. j In.....settled in THE swanky r-urroundmgs OF BELMONT Park next Saturday j afternoon..
Atchison, Kansas   Sunday, June 10, 1956  739 k

Lima News - 6/10/1960
...for THE most victories in this "TEST OF THE CHAMPION." Earlier this week.....for a record seventh triumph in THE BELMONT Stakes Saturday at BELMONT Park..
Lima, Ohio   Friday, June 10, 1960  680 k

Gettysburg Times - 6/10/1955
...THE mile and one half "TEST OF THE CHAMPION" will be raced at BELMONT Park.....Nashua is THE only one OF THE BELMONT field to have started in THE..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania   Friday, June 10, 1955  708 k

Chronicle Telegram - 6/10/1960
...for THE most victories in this "TEST OF THE CHAMPION." Earlier this week.....for a record seventh triumph in THE BELMONT Stakes tomorrow at BELMONT Park..
Elyria, Ohio   Friday, June 10, 1960  719 k

Frederick Post - 6/12/1954
...OF all BELMONT Stakes. Although THE "TEST OF THE CHAMPION" may lack THE.....grind considered America's premier TEST for 3-yearolds. Fourteen starters..
Frederick, Maryland   Saturday, June 12, 1954  976 k

Dixon Evening Telegraph - 6/12/1953
...Sunny Jim has taken five Belmonls. THE TEST OF THE CHAMPION Alfred Gwynne.....vs. Stanford. Duke vs. Colorado Slate. BELMONT: Dancer's Big TEST GreaTEST Race..
Dixon, Illinois   Friday, June 12, 1953  752 k

Lima News - 6/9/1962
...THE four outstanding entrants in THE "TEST OF THE CHAMPION." Folk Dancer has a.....runnings in THE long history OF THE BELMONT Stakes. Usually THE Kentucky..
Lima, Ohio   Saturday, June 09, 1962  1017 k

Chronicle Telegram - 6/9/1950
...BELMONT boasts is its tag-line "THE TEST OF THE CHAMPION." ANIMALS WITHOUT.....who with Lloyd Mangrum and defending CHAMPION Gary MiddlecOFf were listed at..
Elyria, Ohio   Friday, June 09, 1950  737 k

Reno Evening Gazette - 6/6/1952
...and Mrs. Walter M. Jeffords1 One half "TEST OF THE CHAMPION." But Count. All.....1, principaly because he likos I THE BELMONT track. THE Cain Hoy THE I colt..
Reno, Nevada   Friday, June 06, 1952  614 k

Reno Evening Gazette - 6/13/1956
...again in THE mile and one half "TEST OF THE CHAMPION." In THE 17-horse.....in THE 88th running OF THE famous BELMONT Stakes Saturday. That seemed to..
Reno, Nevada   Wednesday, June 13, 1956  681 k

Dixon Evening Telegraph - 6/10/1955
...THE mile and one half "TEST OF THE CHAMPION'' will be raced at BELMONT Park.....Jones OF Rutland, Vi., THE defending CHAMPION. Mrs. Jones established THE..
Dixon, Illinois   Friday, June 10, 1955  786 k

Bridgeport Post - 6/10/1955
...country. .v THE BELMONT is called THE TEST OF THE CHAMPION here because it is.....pn -Sunny is.'. sixth victory half .'.'TEST OF. THE and ;.a f possible eight 3..
Bridgeport, Connecticut   Friday, June 10, 1955  835 k

Oshkosh Daily Northwestern - 6/9/1953
...date. Spen'Dancer' To Get Top TEST In BELMONT NEW YORK Native Dancer.....as expected, gets THE "TEST OF THE CHAMPION" Saturday in THE 85th running..
Oshkosh, Wisconsin   Tuesday, June 09, 1953  753 k

Dixon Evening Telegraph - 6/16/1951
...OFf in THE tough mile and one half TEST OF THE CHAMPION. Jack Amiel's Count.....defeated THE locals. Count Turf Heads BELMONT Entries NEW (AP) One OF THE..
Dixon, Illinois   Saturday, June 16, 1951  877 k

Gazette Bulletin - 6/12/1954
...OF all BELMONT Stakes. Although THE ".TEST OF THE CHAMPION" may lack thu.....grind considered America's premier TEST for tnree-year-0tfts. Fourteen..
Williamsport, Pennsylvania   Saturday, June 12, 1954  804 k

Coshocton Tribune - 6/8/1953
...old division as expected, gets THE "TEST OF THE CHAMPION" Saturday in THE.....s three-year olds run in THE gruelling BELMONT. OF THE 126 nominated for THE..
Coshocton, Ohio   Monday, June 08, 1953  784 k

Dixon Evening Telegraph - 6/6/1952
...THE maximum for THE mile and one half "TEST OF THE CHAMPION." With eight facing.....to THE secretary's OFfice today at BELMONT park and plank down THE starting..
Dixon, Illinois   Friday, June 06, 1952  593 k

Independent Journal - 2/21/1952
...weight for age, OFten is called "THE TEST OF THE CHAMPION" and Is1 a favorite.....association announced today. THE. BELMONT, a gruellug TEST for three-year..
San Rafael, California   Thursday, February 21, 1952  1007 k

Traverse City Record Eagle - 6/13/1953
...classic long has been regarded as TEST OF THE CHAMPION. Applied to today's.....victory in THE Preakness. So THE BELMONT shapes up as a big TEST, indeed..
Traverse City, Michigan   Saturday, June 13, 1953  528 k

Berkshire Evening Eagle - 6/6/1952
...THE maximum for THE mile and one half "TEST OF THE CHAMPION." But if only six.....to THE secretary's OFfice today at BELMONT Park and plank down THE starting..
Pittsfield, Massachusetts   Friday, June 06, 1952  567 k

Oshkosh Daily Northwestern - 6/9/1955
...triple crown" races, is called THE "TEST OF THE CHAMPION" and THEre are few.....with it. THE gruelling mile-end-a-half BELMONT, longest OF THE..
Oshkosh, Wisconsin   Thursday, June 09, 1955  915 k

Stevens Point Daily Journal - 6/10/1955
...THE mile and one half "TEST OF THE CHAMPION" will he raced at BELMONT park.....San Antonio, Tex., British Amateur CHAMPION, led five Americans into THE..
Stevens Point, Wisconsin   Friday, June 10, 1955  764 k


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   Count Fleet Prohibitive Favorite in 68th Withers Stakes at Belmont Today; SIX RACERS NAMED FOR MILE FIXTURE Slide Rule Rated Chief Rival of Count Fleet in $15,000 Added Withers Today TOLA ROSE WINS HANDICAP 13-10 Favorite Leads All the Way to Beat Bolingbroke by Three Lengths
By BRYAN FIELD. New York Times (1857. May 22, 1943. p. 17 (1 page):
   Count Fleet and five others have been named for the historic WIthers Stakes, $15,000 added feature at Belmont Park today, that will serve as a test of the champion's ability to come down to a mile from the longer routes he has been running.

   Ponder, Palestinian and Capot Head Field of Eight in Belmont Stakes Today; CALUMET FAVORITE FACES STERN TEST Ponder Bids for 3-Year-Old Title in Mile-and-One-Half $91,500 Belmont Today PALESTINIAN A KEEN RIVAL Capot Expected to Attempt a Front-Running Triumph -- Double Pays $743.60
By JAMES ROACH. New York Times (1857. Jun 11, 1949. p. 14 (1 page):
   At that time, if the starting fee of $750 is paid for each, eight colts of that age will go into the starting gate at Belmont Park for the eighty-first running of the Belmont Stakes, "test of the champion" in the division.

   ROTZ IS ASSIGNED TO HIGH ECHELON; Jacobs Entry Likely to Be Even Money Field of 9 Expected for Event
By JOE NICHOLS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 5, 1970. p. 45 (1 page) :
   Although it does not compare to last year's running, when previously undefeated Majestic Prince and Arts and Letters held the public interest, this year's Belmont Stakes is attracting more than mild attention.  The main reason is the presence in the field of Mrs. Ethel D. Jacob's Personality and High Echelon.
   The Jacobs entry continued to be rated the favorite for tomorrow's mile-and-a-half "test of the champion."

   Ron Turcotte Remembers Secretariat
Dave Anderson. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 5, 1976. p. 41 (1 page):
   At a mile and one-half, the Belmont Stakes is known as the Test of a Champion.


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun  6 01:04:20 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 21:04:20 -0400
Subject: kyarn
In-Reply-To: <6D0A4730B029C545AC8DE97D7F22049D012195F2@rdec-exch8.ds.amr
 dec.army.mil>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.210420.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Several such variants are shown in DARE under "carrion".

-- Doug Wilson


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Sun Jun  6 01:35:39 2004
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 20:35:39 -0500
Subject: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.203539.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If you are hunting the book, it might be Dale Freeman's "non-books" "How to
talk Pure Ozark...'Thout Hardly Even Tryin'" parts I and II which I got from
the SMSU bookstore a year or so ago.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilson Gray" <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET>

Nevertheless, about 35 years later, while thumbing through a book on the
vocabulary of *Ozark* English, what before my wondering eyes should appear
but the citation, "kyahn. n. carrion." It blew my mind, to say the least.
Unfortunately, I'm unable to recall the title or the author of the lexicon.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  6 02:57:31 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 22:57:31 -0400
Subject: Blue Rhine, Black Forest (1930) (German cuisine; 1 of 2)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.225731.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I was looking for "Black Forest cake," but instead found much more.  There's an appendix on German food terms.
   If you're not interested, please just browse or delete...Gerald Cohen takes trips to Germany and there are some food people here, but I don't want to burden others.


BLUE RHINE
BLACK FOREST
A HAND- AN DAY-BOOK
by Louis Untermeyer
New York: Harcourt, Brace and Company
1930

Pg. 7:  It may be equally true that all one needs in German is _Ein Glas Bier, Danke schon, Wo ist das Abort?_

Pg. 15:  It was the tact of the _portier_ at the Hotel Metropol that taught me how to eat _Asperges a la Flamande_.  As an asparagus lover, I had opened my eyes at the mamoth (Pg. 16--ed.) white stalks, accompanied by a butter-sauce _and_ a severely simple hard-boiled egg.  Most of my compatriots, the _portier_ confided with a shudder, either sent the egg back, saying it had not been ordered, or, worse still, ate their asparagus _au naturel_--and then attacked the egg.  As an traveled person knew, he continued, the egg must be gently sliced, cross-cut and, when its portions were sufficiently reduced, pressed and prodded with a fork.  Next, the melted butter was poured over the result, mixed with it and heaped in a low mound.  The asparagus was now ready to be annointed, and then--The _portier's_ gesture was graphic.

Pg. 24:  Trays of beer, pretzels, _Schinkenbrotchen_ appear at the further end.

Pg. 30:  ...an establishment where, for twenty cents, one may acclimate one's self to the _Burgerliches Mittagessen_ (popular lunch) of _Bratwurst_ and beer; hardware store, cabaret, _Conditorei_ (a super-bakery),...

Pg. 41 ("Wines of the Rhine"):  The _Johannisberg Klaus_ and the familiar _Johannisberger_, like their more aristocratic relation, are distinguished by bouquet an affability rather than by power.  One can taste cool shadows and slow sunlight in even a low-priced _Johannisberger_.  The neighboring _Rudesheimer_ is a more deceptive wine; so light as to seem harmless, its innocence is a sham and the partaker should be aware of its sublety.

Pg. 42:  Other wines celebrated in the Rheingau ( a section fifteen miles long) are the full-bodied _Grafenberger_, the beryl-colored _Grisenheimer_, the delicate _Marcobrunner_ (an ideal "ladies' wine"), the less elegant but satisfactory _Hallgartener_, and the always superior _Hochheimer_, shortened in England to "Hock"--by which the Englishman means any white wine of Germany.

Pg. 55:  But the red wine which the region honors is still called _Drachenblut_--"Dragon's Blood."

Pg. 87:  Here is Assmannshausen, the home of the "famed and furious" red wine and a dozen tales, purporting to show how it got its potency.

Pg. 92:  THE "WINE-MOUNTAINS"
Pg. 94:  ...up they go to the _Weinberge_ (literally "wine-mountains"),...

Pg. 104:  THE CONDITOREI
   The _Conditorei_ (_habitat_ Germany and Austria) deserves a chapter to itself.  More, it deserves a laureate.  It is a glorified sweetshop, a bakery lifted to the _n_th, a cake-and-coffee shop in Heaven.  No one can appreciate tarts, has ever understood pastry, until confronted with the pastrymaker's sould as it is revealed on the lyrical counters of the _Conditorei_.  Merely as designs, the _Kuchen_ (high German for _patisserie_) are as ingenious as they are infite.  Here are chocolate squares precariously balanced on an edifice of _Blatterteig_ (tissue-paper dough); here are towers of cherries leaning Pisa-like above a foundation of _blanc mange_; here vanilla triangles are set back from futuristic flanks of plums, spun sugar and candied rhubarb.  What Ely (Pg. 105--ed.) Jacques Kahn has done for the recessional skyscrapers, and P. T. Frankl for step-back furniture, some anonymous German has accomplished for the hitherto conventional pastry.  So much for the design.  Luckily for the clumsy artificer in words, the tastes are indescribable.  All the known and at least twelve unknown sweetmeats and spices have been insinuated into these _Strudels_, _Barpfoten_, _Indianer_, _Lebkuchen_, _Linxertorten_, ten-layered, chocolate-wafered _Pischinger Torten_, rum-flavored _Punschtorten_, _Anana Creme_, _Cremeschnitten_, _Krapfen_, _Scheiterhaufen_. . . .
   And, like an ever-recurrent theme, more persistent than a Wagnerian motif, occurs the _Schlagsahne_ (_Schlagobers_), that favorite substratum which is nothing more nor less than whipped cream.  To the German, whipped cream is anything but a culinary flourish; it is no mere twirl to drop in one's cocoa or add as a decorative scallop to a wedge of fruit.  To the German, it is a sweet _per se_, a complete dish, a teatime _raison d'etre_.  Every traveler has gasped to see dainty Frauleins and Teutons who are almost Titans consuming plates, piles and pyramids of whipped cream _au naturel_.  Rare is the American who can suppress a shudder.  He may become used to Rhine wine for breakfast, acclimated to beer and _Wurstel_ at eleven A.M.; he may even develop a passion for those lumps of boiled dough called _Spatzle_.  But the idea of sitting down to saucers of _Schlagsahne_ will always curdle his patriotic blood.

Pg. 112:  At each end are fragrant, open-air kitchens where one can buy--and decided does buy--_Waffeln_, which are waffles without a taint of sogginess, without a suspicion of dough or, for that matter, of this heavy-hearted world; waffles idealized, etherealized, spiritualized, to which our waffles are as Caliban to Prospero; waffles upon which the powdered sugar lies like rhyme upon a poem; affles compounded of hope, faith and midsummer moonlight; waffles that life a man (and sometimes a woman) above himself; waffles...
(I gotta tell the NY TIMES that this is the food critic to replace William Grimes--ed.)

Pg. 119:  No one thinks of retiring immediately after the theater in Heidelberg.  There are a dozen restaurants, _Bierstube_, coffee-houses, _Weinkeller_.  Andthere is, first of all, The Perkeo.  To the eye, The Perkeo is an overcrowded and rather dingy Ratskeller on the Hauptstrasse a little to the west of the Ludwigsplatz.  To the ear, it is a jumble of all the barbarous dialects south of Hamburg.  But to the palate, it is Paradise enow.  The loaf of bread has turned into a variety of salt pretzel and _Stangel_, placed before you cunningly designed to increase your thirst; the book of verse is translated into the poetry of _Leberknodel_, _Knackwurst_, _Sauerbraten_; the jug of wine foams into the sweeter mead of _Marzenbier_, _Maibock_, _Hackerbrau_, _Spatenbrau_, _Lowenbrau_, _Leopoldbrau_...

Pg. 120:  Next morning, without the slightest trace of _Katzenjammer_ ("cat's yammering" i.e., a hangover), you are fitter than ever.

Pg. 122:  If you are wise, you will let the _Fuhrer_ (official guide) take you through.
(OED has nothing before 1934 and the Nazis--ed.)

Pg. 127 ("THE STADT-GARTEN"):  But for the untutored and merely thirsty, there is the Pilsener type (generally known as _helles_ or light beer) and the heavier, sweeter Munchener (_dunkles_ or dark beer).  One may, of course, insist on the genuine Pilsener (now the product of Czecho-Slovakia) at double the price, but an order of "_Ein Glas helles_" will usually bring a light and satisfactory potation, while "_Ein Glas dunkles_" will result in something not unworthy of Munich.

Pg. 151:  The standard of life is still governed by the three K's: "_Kuche_, _Kirche_, _Kinder_"--which may be high-handedly translated "Kitchen, Kirk, Kiddies."

Pg. 155:  Examples may be collected at every Wirtschaft, inn and cross-roads,  Scarcely a dining-room is without this subtle invitation and apology:
   _Hunger is der beste Koch_
   _Der je war oder wirdet noch._
Which may be translated roughly:
   Away with recipes in books,
   Hunger is the best of cooks!

Pg. 184 ("LUNCHING IN FREIBURG"):  The ordinary three mark table d'hote offers the always dependable noodle soup, a _Vorspeise_ of eggs or fish, young roast chicken or saddle of venison, a _Torte_ or _Ananas Erdbeeren_, "pineapple strawberries," so called because of their size and fragrance.  Venison in Germany is no patrician dish; even the name has no lordly implications: _Rehrucken_ or _Rehragout_ is mere "deer stew" or peasant "roe-steak."

Pg. 199 ("WOLFACH"):  This is the country of streams where the trout leap into the fish-basket and the _Schwarzbrod Torte_ is glorified.  Do not let the plebian name deceive you; the _Schwazbrod (sic) Torte_, in order to justify its name, may be black bread among its constitutents, but the finished product is like it in nothing but color.  Here, masquerading under the domestic misnomer, are more spices than the East would recognize, a hugger-mugger of fat raisins, golden sultanas, syrupy currants, citron, orange-peel, chocolate--and a generous dash of that colorless but commanding essence known as _Kirchwasser_.  The novice is advised that it is well to stop after the fourth portion.

Pg. 204 ("RIPPOLDSAU"):  An average menu in the Saal for those not suffering from anything worse than sore heels consists of cream of chicken, blue brook trout uncontaminated  by plebian bread crumbs, young gosling with chipolata, a fennel salad, a _bombe_ of variegated ices and assorted marzipan cakes.  A Kurhaus!

Pg. 208:  At the Tannenhof we weighed the claims of a _Kappelrodecker_, a peach-colored wine, against a pale-gold _Markgrafler_ without coming to a decision.

Pg. 227:  "FAREWELL TROUT"
  There is still the matter of the _Abschiedsforelle_--literally "Farewell Trout."  If the departing guest has not offended the entire community, his last supper is signalized by the entry of a large silver pot, the handles of which are covered with elaborately twisted napkins.  The (Pg. 228--ed.) chef himself appears, the waitresses stand back, the pot in which the fish was cooked is reverently placed on your table which has blossomed with ferns and rose petals, the lid is lifted, the guests murmur "_Abschiedsforellen_" and the prepared rainbow trout is put on your plate.  It is the brightly speckled trout _au naturel_--just as he glistened in his ciy waters.  No self-respecting cook would commit the sacrilege of subtracting the head or adding a bread crumb; fresh butter and small potatoes are the only permitted accompaniment.  You slit your piscatorial Godspeed, remove the backbone, raise your glass of half-sweet Rulander (a Hundseck specialty), invoke Herr Maushart and the gods.  Ten minutes of delicatesilence.  Then the chef departs, the silver pot is taken away, the customary roast appears.  The ritual is over.

Pg. 231 ("BADEN-BADEN ENVIRONS"):  ...Ausfluge_ (picnics)...
   ...to the Alte Schloss (or Hohenbaden) and its conveniently situated restaurant which serves the finest _Zwetschgentorte_ (plum-cake) in all Europe.

Pg. 237:  APPENDIX A  A CONDENSED GLOSSARY
Pg. 239:  FOOD
   (GENERAL)
Abendbrot (Abendessen): supper
Bauernbrot: coarse bread
Bier (helles), (dunkles): beer (light), (dark)
Brauntwien: spirits
Brot: bread
Brotchen: rolls
Butter: butter
Eier: eggs
Eierkuchen: omelet
Eier weich gekochte; Eier hart gekochte: soft-boiled eggs; hard-boiled eggs
Essig: vinegar
Fische: fish
Flasche: bottle
Fleisch: meat
Fruhstuck: breakfast
Gabel fruhstuck (Mittagessen): lunch
Gebackene: baked
Gebratene (s): fried or roasted
Gedampfte (s): steamed, stewed
Gedunste (s): stewed
Gerostete (s): roasted, grilled
Haferflocken: oatmeal
Hauptmalzeit: dinner
Honig: honey
Kaffee: coffee
Kase: cheese
Knodel: dumplings
Milch: milk
Mitagessen: lunch
Obst (Frucht): fruit
Oel: oil
Pg. 240:
Pfannkuchen: pancakes
Rostbrot: toast
Rotwein: red wine
Ruhreier: scrambled eggs
Schnitte: cut, sliced
Senft: mustard
Spatzle: small dumplings
Speisenfolge: menu, bill of fare
Spiegeleier: fried eggs
Sprudel: mineral water
Suppe: soup
Susspeise: sweet
Tasse: cup
Tee: tea
Tunke: sauce
Verlorene Eier: poached eggs
Vorspeise: Hors d'oeuvre
Wacholder branntwein: gin
Wasser: water
Wein: wine
Weisswein: white wine

(TO BE CONTINUED)


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Jun  6 03:25:16 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 23:25:16 -0400
Subject: kyarn
In-Reply-To: <200406051755.1bwLWe2gR3NZFmR1@bunting>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.232516.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 5, 2004, at 8:54 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject:      kyarn
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> In my childhood in
>> East Texas, a word that sounded like "kyahn" was used by my parents
>> and
>> grandparents with a meaning something like "an otherwise-unidentified
>> substance with a disgusting odor," since it occurred only in sentences
>> like "That smells/stinks like/as bad as kyahn." I've never heard
>> "kyahn" used by *anyone* outside of my immediate family. Nevertheless,
>> about 35 years later, while thumbing through a book on the vocabulary
>> of *Ozark* English, what before my wondering eyes should appear but
>> the
>> citation, "kyahn. n. carrion." It blew my mind, to say the least.
>> Unfortunately, I'm unable to recall the title or the author of the
>> lexicon.
>
> My wife's maternal grandmother is in her 80's, and grew up/lives in
> south Georgia (Douglas, Nicholls).  My wife picked up from her side
> of the family "kyarn", meaning carrion (note the "r").  The best
> description
> is kyarn is what a dog will roll in just before it
> comes inside and rubs against you.  The stinkier, the better.

Now that you've brought it to my attention, it could well have been the
"kyarn" spelling that I saw in the lexicon. My "knowledge" of English
of the Ozark/Appalachian type has been gained primarily from comic
strips like "Li'l Abner" and "[Barney Google and] Snuffy Smith," and
from TV shows like Jerry Springer. Interestingly, while in the Army, I
had a (white) Appalachian-speaking buddy for whom "yon" as an adjective
was a living part of his vocabulary. He could say things like, "Let's
go have a beer in yon bar." This was in 1961. Down home in East Texas,
we blacks used "yon" only adverbially in exclamations like "Yon he go!"
Otherwise, we used "yonder" and even then still only adverbially: "He
use to live (over) yonder; look (over) yonder!; they went (over)
yonder/went yonder (way)."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  6 03:46:26 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 23:46:26 -0400
Subject: Blue Rhine, Black Forest(1930) (German cuisine, 2 of 2)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.234626.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BLUE RHINE
BLACK FOREST
A HAND- AN DAY-BOOK
by Louis Untermeyer
New York: Harcourt, Brace and Company
1930


Pg. 240:  SOUP (SUPPE)
Fleischbruhe: broth
Gemusesuppe: vegetable
Gerstensuppe: barley soup
Grunkernsuppe: grain soup
Kerbelsuppe: cream of chevril
Kraftbruhe: bouillon
Linsensupper: lentil soup
Muschelsuppe: clam chowder
Rindfleischsuppe: beef and vegetable soup
Schottische Suppe: Scotch broth
Spargelsuppe: cream of asparagus

   FISH (FISCH)
Austern: oysters
Backforellen: brook trout
Ruckling: smoked white fish
Forellen: trout
Heilbutte: halibut
Herring: herring
Hummer: lobster
Kabeljau: cod
Krabben: shrimps
Krebse: crabs
Rauchherring: smoked herring
Rheinsalm: Rhine salmon
Rollmops: rolled pickled herring
Salm (Lachs): salmon
Sardellen: anchovies
Scholle: flounder
Seezunge: sole
Steinbutt: turbot
Zander: pike, perch

   MEAT (FLEISCH)
Deutsches Beefsteak: chopped (Hamburg) steak
Ente: duck
Hammellfleisch: mutton
Hammellrippchen: mutton chop
Italienischer Salat: cold meat salad spiced
(Pg. 241--ed.)
Junghahn gebraten: young roast chicken
Jungschweinsbraten: roast suckling pig
Gans: goose
Gansleber: goose liver (pate de fois gras)
Gefullter Weisskohl: stuffed cabbage with meat
Kalbsbrust: breast of veal
Kalbskopf: calf's head
Klabsleber: calf's liver
Klabsnierenbraten: loin of veal
Kalte platte; kalte Aufschnitt: cold meats
Klops: meat balls
Kucken: chicken
Lammkoteletten: lamb chops
Leberknodel: liver dumplings
Mastochsenfleisch: tenderloin of beef
Mettwurst: country sausage
Ochsenfleisch: boiled beef
Ochsenrippenstuck: sirloin of beef
Pfeffertopf: Westphalian pepper-pot
Ragout: stew
Rebhuhn: partridge
Rehbraten: roast venison
Rehkeule: leg of venison
Rehrucken: saddle of venison
Rindfleisch: boiled beef
Rippenstuck: steak
Sauerbraten: spiced, steamed beef
Schinken: ham
Scweinepokelfleisch: salt pork
Schweinskotelett: pork chop
Speck: bacon
Taube: pigeon (squab)
Truthahn: turkey
Wiener Schnitzel: breaded veal cutlet
Wurst: sausage

   VEGETABLES (GEMUSE)
Beete (Rote Ruben): beets
Bohnen: beans
Blumenkohl: cauliflower
Erbsen: peas
Erbsen und Wurzeln: peas and carrots
Gurken: cucumbers (pickles)
Karotten (Mohrrube): carrots
Kartoffel: potatoes
Katoffelbrei, Kartoffelmus: mashed potatoes
Kartoffelklose: potatoe dumplings
Kohl: cabbage
Kopfsalad: head lettuce
Kraut: cabbage, herb
Krauter: herbs
Meerettich: horse radish
Perlbohnen: string beans
Pfifferlingen: small mushrooms
Pilz (pilzling): mushroom
Reis: rice
Rosenkohl: Burssels sprouts
Rote Ruben: beets
(Pg. 242--ed.)
Rotkraut: red cabbage
Rube: turnip
Salat: salad
Schnittlauch: chives
Sellerie: celery
Spargel: asparagus
Spinat: spinach
Sprossen: Brussels sprouts
Tomatte: tomato
Wachsbohnen: wax beans
Wirsinggemuse: spring cabbage
Wirsingkohl: savoy cabbage
Zweibel: onions

   SWEETS, DESSERTS (SUSSPEISE, NACHTISCH)
Apfelmus: applesauce
Apfeltorte: apple-pie
Cremeschnitte: cream-layer (Napoleon)
Eis: ice
Frucheis: fruit ice
Geback: small cakes
Gefrorenes: ice-cream
Hornchen: sugared rolls, a sweetened _croissant_
Kase: cheese
Kaseplatte: assorted cheeses
Kompott: stewed fruit
Kuchen: cake
Makronen: macaroons
Merinken: kisses (meringue)
Pfannkuchen: pancakes
Rahmeis: ice-cream
Schlagsahne: whipped cream
Schnee-Eier: meringue in custard (Floating island)
Schillerlocken: cream rolls
Strudel: Strudel.  A pastry which has no Englsih counterpart.  There are several varieties, the best of which is the _ausgezogene_, composed of a sheet of extremely thin dough.  This sheet is pulled out by hand over a large table, spread with fruit (apples or cherries), nuts, sugar, and butter--sometimes a cottage cheese mixture known as _Topfenstrudel_--rolled and baked.  It is then sliced in portions for epicures in Heaven.
Torte: layer cake
Waffeln: sweet biscuits--sometimes waffles, but usually sugar crackers
Windbeutel: cream puff

   FRUIT, BERRIES, ETC> (OBST, BEERE, U. S. W.)
Apfel: apple
Apfelsine: orange
Aprikose: apricot
Ananas Erdbeeren: large strawberries
Ananas: pineapple
Backpfaumen: stewed prunes
Birne: pear
Blaubeeren: blueberries
Brombeeren: blackberries
Erdbeeren: strawberries
Heidelbeeren: huckleberries
Himbeeren: raspberries
Johannesbeeren: currants
Kirsche: cherry
Kronsbeeren: cranberries
(Pg. 243--ed.)
Melonen: melons
Mirabelle: small yellow plum
Pfirsich: peach
Pflaume: plum
Preiselbeeren: red whortleberries, small cranberries
Ringlotte: green gage
Stachelbeeren: gooseberries
Wald Erdbeeren: small wild strawberries
Zwetchgen: blue plums, prunes

Pg. 246:  APPENDIX C  THE BLACK FOREST ANTOHOLOGY
Pg. 247:  ANCIENT ADAGE
   _Away with recipes in books!_
   _Hunger is the best of cooks._
   The ensuing related verses were found in various villages.  The tone of one or two is suspiciously modern, but the general idiom--to say nothing of the subject--attest the authenticity.

Pg. 248:  TO (sic?) MANY COOKS
   _Keep love a-stewing, keep soup in the pot._
   _Both are enjoyable only when hot._

Pg. 252:  RECIPE
   _For betrothal parties, this may be of use:_
   _Don't season your sauce till you've picked your goose._

Pg. 253:  COOKED GOOSE
   _Hurry from love and marriage, hurry._
   _Run while you can from your desire._
   _The cooked goose has no time to worry_
   _Whether it's frying-pan or fire._

Pg. 253:  OLD AND YOUNG
   _An old wine and a young wife_
   _Will keep you dancing most of your life._

Pg. 254:  WEDDING CAKE
   _How to bake_
   _The wedding cake:_
   _First you mix_
   _Five or six_
   _Eggs with honey,_
   _Milk and many_
   _A homely pound_
   _(Finely ground)_
   _Of humdrum_
   _Domestic crumb._
   _Then add some_
   _Hint of clove,_
   _Traces of_
   _Romantic love._
   _Now drop in_
   _A shred of thin_
   _Forbidden fruit,_
   _Flavor to suit._
Pg. 255:
   _Add, for spice,_
   _A dash of lies._
   _Put in mold--_
   _And serve it cold._

Pg. 255:  KILLJOYS
   _Bread would be cake and beer would be nectar_
   _If it weren't for love and the tax-collector._

Pg. 256:  DISGRUNTLED GUEST
   _The meat is high,_
   _The bread is dry,_
   _The wine is bitter_
   _And so am I._

Pg. 257:  NEVERTHELESS
   _The world's a mess;_
      _Living's no good._
   _Nevertheless,_
      _You eat your food._

Pg. 257:  SAUERKRAUT
   _Life is as heavy as sauerkraut--and it_
   _Is pleasant to him who can stomach and stand it._

Pg. 257:  BARNYARD MOTTO
   _When the hen lays and the cocks carouse_
   _Nothing evil can touch your house._

Pg. 261:  A SIGN-BOARD
   _"Welcome!  Welcome!" says mine host--_
   _And who pays best is welcome most._
   Food and drink are, not unnaturally, given a place in the short and simple iambics of the poor.  Drinking-songs, though not quite extinct, are rare--radio and the phonographs have invaded the taverns--but the ancient jokes and rhymed saws hold their own.

Pg. 261:  COMPENSATION
   _Life, alas,_
      _Is very drear._
   _Up with the glass!_
      _Down with the beer!_

Pg. 261:  ON A COFFEE-CUP
   _Honor to Eve whose wisdom is acted;_
   _Honor to Solomon and his queen;_
   _But glory to him who first extracted_
   _Magic from the coffee-bean._

Pg. 261:  IDEAL GUEST
   _The favorite guest is one who's able_
   _To leave no crumb upon the table._


(ALL RIGHT!  NOW WHERE IS THE BLACK FOREST CAKE???--ed.)


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Jun  6 03:57:35 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 23:57:35 -0400
Subject: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
In-Reply-To: <200406051848.1bwMLP3Xu3NZFlr0@killdeer>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.JUN.2004.235735.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks for the suggestion. BTW, back in the 'Fifties, I did my basic at
Leonard Wood, of which I have many fond memories, like the time our
company spent the entire night with flashlights policing up the parade
ground, followed by a full day of training in the 95-degree temperature
of August in Missouri. It was at Leonard Wood that I first heard the
word, "dork." At that time, its only meaning was "penis."

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 5, 2004, at 9:35 PM, Dave Hause wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Dave Hause <dwhause at JOBE.NET>
> Subject:      Re: The slang meaning of the verb "rip off"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> If you are hunting the book, it might be Dale Freeman's "non-books"
> "How to
> talk Pure Ozark...'Thout Hardly Even Tryin'" parts I and II which I
> got from
> the SMSU bookstore a year or so ago.
> Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
> Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wilson Gray" <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET>
>
> Nevertheless, about 35 years later, while thumbing through a book on
> the
> vocabulary of *Ozark* English, what before my wondering eyes should
> appear
> but the citation, "kyahn. n. carrion." It blew my mind, to say the
> least.
> Unfortunately, I'm unable to recall the title or the author of the
> lexicon.
>


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Jun  6 04:03:01 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 00:03:01 -0400
Subject: Blue Rhine, Black Forest(1930) (German cuisine, 2 of 2)
In-Reply-To: <200406052046.1bwOCi7h83NZFji0@eagle>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.000301.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What? No mention of Russische Eier? Surely the most delicious form of
deviled eggs on earth!

-Wilson Gray

On Jun 5, 2004, at 11:46 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Blue Rhine, Black Forest(1930) (German cuisine, 2 of 2)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> BLUE RHINE
> BLACK FOREST
> A HAND- AN DAY-BOOK
> by Louis Untermeyer
> New York: Harcourt, Brace and Company
> 1930
>
>
> Pg. 240:  SOUP (SUPPE)
> Fleischbruhe: broth
> Gemusesuppe: vegetable
> Gerstensuppe: barley soup
> Grunkernsuppe: grain soup
> Kerbelsuppe: cream of chevril
> Kraftbruhe: bouillon
> Linsensupper: lentil soup
> Muschelsuppe: clam chowder
> Rindfleischsuppe: beef and vegetable soup
> Schottische Suppe: Scotch broth
> Spargelsuppe: cream of asparagus
>
>    FISH (FISCH)
> Austern: oysters
> Backforellen: brook trout
> Ruckling: smoked white fish
> Forellen: trout
> Heilbutte: halibut
> Herring: herring
> Hummer: lobster
> Kabeljau: cod
> Krabben: shrimps
> Krebse: crabs
> Rauchherring: smoked herring
> Rheinsalm: Rhine salmon
> Rollmops: rolled pickled herring
> Salm (Lachs): salmon
> Sardellen: anchovies
> Scholle: flounder
> Seezunge: sole
> Steinbutt: turbot
> Zander: pike, perch
>
>    MEAT (FLEISCH)
> Deutsches Beefsteak: chopped (Hamburg) steak
> Ente: duck
> Hammellfleisch: mutton
> Hammellrippchen: mutton chop
> Italienischer Salat: cold meat salad spiced
> (Pg. 241--ed.)
> Junghahn gebraten: young roast chicken
> Jungschweinsbraten: roast suckling pig
> Gans: goose
> Gansleber: goose liver (pate de fois gras)
> Gefullter Weisskohl: stuffed cabbage with meat
> Kalbsbrust: breast of veal
> Kalbskopf: calf's head
> Klabsleber: calf's liver
> Klabsnierenbraten: loin of veal
> Kalte platte; kalte Aufschnitt: cold meats
> Klops: meat balls
> Kucken: chicken
> Lammkoteletten: lamb chops
> Leberknodel: liver dumplings
> Mastochsenfleisch: tenderloin of beef
> Mettwurst: country sausage
> Ochsenfleisch: boiled beef
> Ochsenrippenstuck: sirloin of beef
> Pfeffertopf: Westphalian pepper-pot
> Ragout: stew
> Rebhuhn: partridge
> Rehbraten: roast venison
> Rehkeule: leg of venison
> Rehrucken: saddle of venison
> Rindfleisch: boiled beef
> Rippenstuck: steak
> Sauerbraten: spiced, steamed beef
> Schinken: ham
> Scweinepokelfleisch: salt pork
> Schweinskotelett: pork chop
> Speck: bacon
> Taube: pigeon (squab)
> Truthahn: turkey
> Wiener Schnitzel: breaded veal cutlet
> Wurst: sausage
>
>    VEGETABLES (GEMUSE)
> Beete (Rote Ruben): beets
> Bohnen: beans
> Blumenkohl: cauliflower
> Erbsen: peas
> Erbsen und Wurzeln: peas and carrots
> Gurken: cucumbers (pickles)
> Karotten (Mohrrube): carrots
> Kartoffel: potatoes
> Katoffelbrei, Kartoffelmus: mashed potatoes
> Kartoffelklose: potatoe dumplings
> Kohl: cabbage
> Kopfsalad: head lettuce
> Kraut: cabbage, herb
> Krauter: herbs
> Meerettich: horse radish
> Perlbohnen: string beans
> Pfifferlingen: small mushrooms
> Pilz (pilzling): mushroom
> Reis: rice
> Rosenkohl: Burssels sprouts
> Rote Ruben: beets
> (Pg. 242--ed.)
> Rotkraut: red cabbage
> Rube: turnip
> Salat: salad
> Schnittlauch: chives
> Sellerie: celery
> Spargel: asparagus
> Spinat: spinach
> Sprossen: Brussels sprouts
> Tomatte: tomato
> Wachsbohnen: wax beans
> Wirsinggemuse: spring cabbage
> Wirsingkohl: savoy cabbage
> Zweibel: onions
>
>    SWEETS, DESSERTS (SUSSPEISE, NACHTISCH)
> Apfelmus: applesauce
> Apfeltorte: apple-pie
> Cremeschnitte: cream-layer (Napoleon)
> Eis: ice
> Frucheis: fruit ice
> Geback: small cakes
> Gefrorenes: ice-cream
> Hornchen: sugared rolls, a sweetened _croissant_
> Kase: cheese
> Kaseplatte: assorted cheeses
> Kompott: stewed fruit
> Kuchen: cake
> Makronen: macaroons
> Merinken: kisses (meringue)
> Pfannkuchen: pancakes
> Rahmeis: ice-cream
> Schlagsahne: whipped cream
> Schnee-Eier: meringue in custard (Floating island)
> Schillerlocken: cream rolls
> Strudel: Strudel.  A pastry which has no Englsih counterpart.  There
> are several varieties, the best of which is the _ausgezogene_,
> composed of a sheet of extremely thin dough.  This sheet is pulled out
> by hand over a large table, spread with fruit (apples or cherries),
> nuts, sugar, and butter--sometimes a cottage cheese mixture known as
> _Topfenstrudel_--rolled and baked.  It is then sliced in portions for
> epicures in Heaven.
> Torte: layer cake
> Waffeln: sweet biscuits--sometimes waffles, but usually sugar crackers
> Windbeutel: cream puff
>
>    FRUIT, BERRIES, ETC> (OBST, BEERE, U. S. W.)
> Apfel: apple
> Apfelsine: orange
> Aprikose: apricot
> Ananas Erdbeeren: large strawberries
> Ananas: pineapple
> Backpfaumen: stewed prunes
> Birne: pear
> Blaubeeren: blueberries
> Brombeeren: blackberries
> Erdbeeren: strawberries
> Heidelbeeren: huckleberries
> Himbeeren: raspberries
> Johannesbeeren: currants
> Kirsche: cherry
> Kronsbeeren: cranberries
> (Pg. 243--ed.)
> Melonen: melons
> Mirabelle: small yellow plum
> Pfirsich: peach
> Pflaume: plum
> Preiselbeeren: red whortleberries, small cranberries
> Ringlotte: green gage
> Stachelbeeren: gooseberries
> Wald Erdbeeren: small wild strawberries
> Zwetchgen: blue plums, prunes
>
> Pg. 246:  APPENDIX C  THE BLACK FOREST ANTOHOLOGY
> Pg. 247:  ANCIENT ADAGE
>    _Away with recipes in books!_
>    _Hunger is the best of cooks._
>    The ensuing related verses were found in various villages.  The
> tone of one or two is suspiciously modern, but the general idiom--to
> say nothing of the subject--attest the authenticity.
>
> Pg. 248:  TO (sic?) MANY COOKS
>    _Keep love a-stewing, keep soup in the pot._
>    _Both are enjoyable only when hot._
>
> Pg. 252:  RECIPE
>    _For betrothal parties, this may be of use:_
>    _Don't season your sauce till you've picked your goose._
>
> Pg. 253:  COOKED GOOSE
>    _Hurry from love and marriage, hurry._
>    _Run while you can from your desire._
>    _The cooked goose has no time to worry_
>    _Whether it's frying-pan or fire._
>
> Pg. 253:  OLD AND YOUNG
>    _An old wine and a young wife_
>    _Will keep you dancing most of your life._
>
> Pg. 254:  WEDDING CAKE
>    _How to bake_
>    _The wedding cake:_
>    _First you mix_
>    _Five or six_
>    _Eggs with honey,_
>    _Milk and many_
>    _A homely pound_
>    _(Finely ground)_
>    _Of humdrum_
>    _Domestic crumb._
>    _Then add some_
>    _Hint of clove,_
>    _Traces of_
>    _Romantic love._
>    _Now drop in_
>    _A shred of thin_
>    _Forbidden fruit,_
>    _Flavor to suit._
> Pg. 255:
>    _Add, for spice,_
>    _A dash of lies._
>    _Put in mold--_
>    _And serve it cold._
>
> Pg. 255:  KILLJOYS
>    _Bread would be cake and beer would be nectar_
>    _If it weren't for love and the tax-collector._
>
> Pg. 256:  DISGRUNTLED GUEST
>    _The meat is high,_
>    _The bread is dry,_
>    _The wine is bitter_
>    _And so am I._
>
> Pg. 257:  NEVERTHELESS
>    _The world's a mess;_
>       _Living's no good._
>    _Nevertheless,_
>       _You eat your food._
>
> Pg. 257:  SAUERKRAUT
>    _Life is as heavy as sauerkraut--and it_
>    _Is pleasant to him who can stomach and stand it._
>
> Pg. 257:  BARNYARD MOTTO
>    _When the hen lays and the cocks carouse_
>    _Nothing evil can touch your house._
>
> Pg. 261:  A SIGN-BOARD
>    _"Welcome!  Welcome!" says mine host--_
>    _And who pays best is welcome most._
>    Food and drink are, not unnaturally, given a place in the short and
> simple iambics of the poor.  Drinking-songs, though not quite extinct,
> are rare--radio and the phonographs have invaded the taverns--but the
> ancient jokes and rhymed saws hold their own.
>
> Pg. 261:  COMPENSATION
>    _Life, alas,_
>       _Is very drear._
>    _Up with the glass!_
>       _Down with the beer!_
>
> Pg. 261:  ON A COFFEE-CUP
>    _Honor to Eve whose wisdom is acted;_
>    _Honor to Solomon and his queen;_
>    _But glory to him who first extracted_
>    _Magic from the coffee-bean._
>
> Pg. 261:  IDEAL GUEST
>    _The favorite guest is one who's able_
>    _To leave no crumb upon the table._
>
>
> (ALL RIGHT!  NOW WHERE IS THE BLACK FOREST CAKE???--ed.)
>


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Jun  6 04:14:57 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 00:14:57 -0400
Subject: kyarn
In-Reply-To: <200406051804.1bwM5o49I3NZFlr0@killdeer>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.001457.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 5, 2004, at 9:04 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
> Subject:      Re: kyarn
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Several such variants are shown in DARE under "carrion".
>
> -- Doug Wilson

Sure enough, here it is. Well, I guess that pretty much explains why I
didn't find it under "kyon," "kyahn," or "kyarn." Thanks for the tip.

-Wilson Gray


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  6 05:54:12 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 01:54:12 -0400
Subject: Spoiler (1957 politics, 1928 boxing)
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.015412.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  Oh, all right, I'll talk about "spoiler" in this Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES "On Language" column.  It's before 1959 (political sense) and before the 1940s (sports), and it does appear to come from sports.
  Easier to check are "role of spoiler" or "spoiler role" with "election."  "Spoiler" was used first possibly in boxing.


(NEW YORK TIMES)
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/06/magazine/06ONLANGUAGE.html

Spoiler, a slashing word in politics, is apparently of recent vintage. When the conservative columnist William F. Buckley ran for mayor of New York against the liberal Republican John V. Lindsay in 1965, thereby splitting the expected vote against the Democrat, Abe Beame, The New York Times observed, ''William F. Buckley Jr., the Conservative nominee, has dropped any pretense that his role in the campaign is other than that of a spoiler.''
(...)
The word, in roughly its present political sense, may have come from sports. I recall from days in the Ebbets Field bleachers (but cannot find a citation for) its use in baseball in the 40's to describe a hitter who, in the final inning of a game, ''spoiled'' a pitcher's no-hitter by getting a hit. The O.E.D. has a 1948 item from The Baltimore Sun about boxing's Jersey Joe Walcott: ''In the language of the ring he is known as a 'spoiler,' the type of fighter who can make an opponent look bad but who can never look good himself.'' In 1950, The Sun's sports pages applied the word to pro football: ''In meeting San Francisco here . . . the Colts will get a crack at their biggest 'spoiler' of the past two seasons.''

Political etymologists need help. Earliest use I can find -- though not quite in the sought-after sense of ''vote splitter'' -- is by The Times's Anthony Lewis in 1959, who recounted a legislative maneuver of Senate Majority Leader Lyndon Johnson to outfox Democratic liberals: ''The Senator from Texas obviously enjoyed the role of spoiler hugely.''



(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("spoiler" + "election" + "win")
1. FORGING HER OWN CHAINS; THE SOUTH BENT ON RE-ENTERING HER OLD CONDITION. Taking a Course That Threatens the Disruption of the Party to Which She Owes Her Political Freedom -- Making Probable by Her Blind Adherence to Free Coinage the Re-establishment of Negro Domi- nation and Military Rule.
New York Times (1857. Jun 28, 1896. p. 5 (1 page)
   ...the giving over of the South to the political spoiler.

2. District Boy Trails From Start of Bout; Italian Exhibits Speed; Torrance Technical K.O. Victim.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 10, 1937. p. 15 (1 page):
   Murray Kasner, occupying his customary role of spoiler, marred the evening from Jack Torrance's viewpoint when he laid the retired Olympic shot-putter on the canvas at the end of the fifth round to win by a technical knockout.

3. KEATING IS TARGET OF CONSERVATIVES; Party Will Pick Candidate to Oppose Him in November KEATING IS TARGET OF CONSERVATIVES
By RONALD SULLIVAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 26, 1964. p. 1 (2 pages)
Second page (Pg. 32, col. 2):  But perhaps most important, the Conservatives are looking to the future and, they hope, a stronger role in the selection of Republican candidates.  They are willing to play the role of a "spoiler--" lose an election, but win a future battle.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("role of spoiler")
1. District Boy Trails From Start of Bout; Italian Exhibits Speed; Torrance Technical K.O. Victim.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 10, 1937. p. 15 (1 page)

2. Busy Week Ahead for Heurich Five; Brewers Have Chance To Spoil Standsings Of League Leaders
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 26, 1939. p. X4 (1 page)

3. Cards Out To Avenge 1939 Defeat; Students Give Team Pep Rally; Bergman Sends Squad Through Drill
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 10, 1940. p. 22 (1 page)

4. FELLER TOPS YANKS WITH NO-HITTER, 1-0; Six Reach Base, 5 on Walks, as the Indians' Ace Hurls Classic for Second Time 38,112 THRILLED BY FEAT 11 New Yorkers Are Struck Out--Home Run by Hayes in Ninth Sets Back Bevens Bears Down All the Way Keller Ever Dangerous Gives Credit to Hayes Has Six One-Hitters
By LOUIS EFFRAT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 1, 1946. p. 41 (1 page)

5. SENATORS DEFEAT YANKS IN 12TH, 4-3; Newsom, Going Route for 4th Victory, Makes Winning Run on Vernon's Long Single BOMBERS GET 3 IN SECOND Chandler, Hurling 10 Innings, Fails to Maintain Lead and Murphy Loses in Relief Priddy's Fly Falls Safely Robinson Launches Attack Griffith Receives Citation
By LOUIS EFFRAT Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 8, 1946. p. 32 (1 page)

6. Caps Face Celtics Here
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 29, 1947. p. 10 (1 page)

7. RANGERS TO MEET TORONTO TONIGHT; Blue Shirts Seeking Season's Third Victory Over Leaf Sextet in Garden Clash
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 28, 1947. p. S4 (1 page)

8. Detroit Halts Cleveland by 4-3, Hutchinson Outpitching Lemon; Indians' Only Runs Off Tiger Righthander Counted on Homers by Doby, Keltner and Gordon -- Wakefield and Wertz Star
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 25, 1948. p. 12 (1 page)

9. Hutch, Wertz Star In Detroit Victory; Indians Boot Chance for Lead
By Joe Reichler. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 25, 1948. p. 11 (2 pages)

10. Bruins Oppose Santa Clara in Battle of Spoilers Today; Unbeaten Uclans Favored to Dump Foes in Coliseum Gridiron Tussle
PAUL ZIMMERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 15, 1949. p. B1 (1 page)

14. Bladensburg Tries Role Of Spoiler
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 17, 1950. p. B8 (1 page)

15. Sports of The Times; Back to Fundamentals He Sees the Light Quick Switch
By ARTHUR DALEY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 25, 1951. p. 40 (1 page)

16. This Morning
With Shirley Povich. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 23, 1951. p. 13 (1 page)

17. Princeton Captures Eastern Basketball League Title by Defeating Columbia; LAST-PERIOD SURGE BEATS LIONS, 70-65 Princeton Erases Nine-Point Edge Rolled Up by Columbia in the Third Quarter CLINCHES N. C. A. A. BERTH Reutlinger, Emery and Cooper Star in Rally -- Tritschler Sets a Tiger Record
By JOSEPH M. SHEEHANSpecial to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 13, 1952. p. 36 (1 page)

18. GIANTS HOPE TO USE LONG HERE SUNDAY; Menasco Available for Action on Defense Against Eagles in Polo Grounds Game
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 25, 1953. p. 31 (1 page)

19. Eastern Hurts Wilson's Title Hopes, 73-65
By Dave Kelly Post Reporter. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 3, 1954. p. 15 (1 page)

20. CHAMPIONS DIVIDE; Yankees Beat Orioles, 3-1, After They Bow to Turley by 2-1 YANKS WIN BY 3-1 AFTER 2-1 DEFEAT
By JOSEPH M. SHEEHAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 6, 1954. p. S1 (2 pages)

21. Sophomore Scores Two TDs Against Gamecocks; Maryland Beats South Carolina, 20-0
By Herb Heft Staff Reporter. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Oct 31, 1954. p. C1 (2 pages)

22. Ramos Will Try to Halt Chisox for Nats Tonight
By Bob Addie Staff Reporter. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jul 29, 1955. p. 35 (1 page)

23. Nats Turn Attention to Last-Place Baltimore
By Bob Addie Staff Reporter. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Aug 9, 1955. p. 11 (1 page)

24. Porterfield Tries to Beat Yanks Today
By Bob Addie Staff Reporter. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Sep 2, 1955. p. 31 (1 page)

25. Piazza Ties It on Pass To Comacho
By Jerry Davis Staff Reporter. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Nov 5, 1956. p. A16 (2 pages)

26. Elis Can Win Title in Ivy League
By Shirley Povich Staff Reporter. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Nov 24, 1956. p. A10 (1 page)

27. This Morning...
With Shirley Povich. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Nov 14, 1957. p. D1 (1 page)

28. LINCOLN ROAD WINS; 2-5 CHOICE FIRST Lincoln Road Captures Jersey Stakes, First Victory of 1958 LINCOLN ROAD, 2-5, SCORES IN JERSEY
By LOUIS EFFRATSpecial to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 25, 1958. p. S1 (2 pages)

29. SENATORS ENJOY MOMENT OF AMITY; But the Era of Good Feeling Fails to Outlast Opening Prayer and Ritual
By ANTHONY LEWISSpecial to The New York Times.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 8, 1959. p. 15 (1 page)

(MENTIONED IN TODAY'S "ON LANGUAGE" COLUMN--ed.)

30. Drysdale Gets Call Tonight Against Phils
FRANK FINCH. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 9, 1959. p. C1 (1 page)

31. Eagles Out to 'Get Les Richter' Because of Van Brocklin Feud
CAL WHORTON. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 21, 1959. p. A3 (1 page)

32. ANAHEIM CAGERS NOW TOP LEAGUE; Santa Ana's Forfeit of Games Played by L. J. Wheeler Alters Standings
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 4, 1960. p. D8 (1 page)

33. County's Spikers to Clash at OCC; Santa Ana Probable Choice to Take Triangular Meet Honors
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 24, 1960. p. D10 (1 page)

34. Diablos Take on Role of Spoilers
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 16, 1961. p. F12 (1 page)

35. YALE, VILLANOVA I.C.4-A FAVORITES; Elis Rely on Stack, Carroll and Mack in Title Track at Garden Tonight
By DEANE McGOWEN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 11, 1961. p. 16 (1 page)

36. Minnesota Beaten, 5-3; 3 ORIOLE HOMERS TOPPLE TWINS, 5-3
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 23, 1962. p. 199 (2 pages)

37. Orioles Win, Twins' Hopes About Over
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Sep 23, 1962. p. C3 (1 page)

38. Spoiler Tribe Out to Upset USC Today
PAUL ZIMMERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 10, 1962. p. A1 (1 page)

39. U.N. Border Mission
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Jun 7, 1964. p. E6 (1 page):
   The interesting point is that two of the countries which often have played the role of spoilers in SOutheast Asia found themselves able to contribute, or to allow, a temporary balm.

40. Senator Luce?
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 7, 1964. p. 28 (1 page):
   While Mr. Goldwater and his national managers are engaged in hot pursuit of party harmony among all Republicans, the Conservative party in New York--which, if that is possible, stands to the right of the G. O. P. Presidential nominee--seems bent on playing the role of spoiler.  By running a third-party candidate against Representative John V. Lindsay in Manhattan's 17th District and by proposing to nominate its own substitute for Mr. Keating, it may without any logical expectation of electing anybody still chip away enough normally Republican votes to give the Democrats a victory.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("role of spoiler" + "election")
Holland Evening Sentinel - 8/27/1957
...an outside chance OF playing the ROLE OF "SPOILER" for a second time. Be ran.....more solid control OF the Senate. ELECTION OF Kohler would put Republii..
Holland, Michigan   Tuesday, August 27, 1957  829 k
Pg. 6, col. 1:  Running independently are Howard Boyle, a "McCarthy Republican;" Mrs. Georgia Cozzini and Douglas Wheaton.
   Boyle was given an outside chance of playing the role of "spoiler" for a second time.
   he ran in the Republican Senate primary in 1956 as a backer of McCarthy and drew 19,800 votes.  Boyle's total hurt the chances of Former Rep. Glenn R. (Col. 2--ed.) Davis, who lost to Sen. Alexander Wiley by 10,000 votes in that race.

Walla Walla Union Bulletin - 4/19/1948
...has an excellent chance to play the ROLE OF SPOILER when he neets world.....Umapine high school ;tudent body held ELECTION OF OFficers Friday with Fred..
Walla Walla, Washington   Monday, April 19, 1948  934 k

Lowell Sun - 11/3/1965
...the Conservative candidate cast in the ROLE OF SPOILER OF Lindsay's bid in a.....Buckley did achieve one OF his ELECTION goals in that his 13 per cent..
Lowell, Massachusetts   Wednesday, November 03, 1965  743 k

Valley Independent - 10/2/1964
...District Teams Rostraver Eyes ROLE OF SPOILER It took Rostraver High.....the State Legislature in the November ELECTION. "Consequently, they indirectly..
Monessen, Pennsylvania   Friday, October 02, 1964  729 k

Valley Independent - 1/11/1965
...performance and ahead to playing the ROLE OF SPOILER in the Western Division.....0-L 'Sparks' Slated To Meet Tonight ELECTION OF OFficers will highlight a..
Monessen, Pennsylvania   Monday, January 11, 1965  772 k

East Liverpool Review - 1/10/1951
...Steubenville's Big Red, who played the ROLE OF "SPOILER" last The defending.....and Birkholz. Also on the schedule Is ELECTION OF one director. William Murray..
East Liverpool, Ohio   Wednesday, January 10, 1951  511 k

Hawarden Independent - 10/15/1953
...the week before, they played the ROLE OF SPOILER for the second time in.....OF the Independent party seeking ELECTION November 3 over the other..
Hawarden, Iowa   Thursday, October 15, 1953  835 k


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("spoiler" + "baseball"/"fighter")
Coshocton Tribune - 6/20/1928
...the title. Risko is known rather as a SPOILER of good fighter than an.....and Emniett. Reilly, zanesville's BASEBALL boss, standing pat .on their..
Coshocton, Ohio   Wednesday, June 20, 1928  1013 k

Coshocton Tribune - 12/27/1929
...10 via knockouts. Ribio, citibbed the -SPOILER" as a result of his habit of.....to one's success but. then, BASEBALL clubs never were distinguished..
Coshocton, Ohio   Friday, December 27, 1929  695 k

Coshocton Tribune - 12/11/1930
...going nowhere; the lion-hearted "SPOILER." Johnny Risko of Cleveland is.....Sticker Solution By EDDIE BYAN BASEBALL, that great national pastime..
Coshocton, Ohio   Thursday, December 11, 1930  779 k

Appleton Post Crescent - 3/30/1931
...ring-time tonight. Risko, called the "SPOILER" because he has ruined the title.....respects were paid by '.scores of BASEBALL magnates and friends. The body..
Appleton, Wisconsin   Monday, March 30, 1931  1077 k

Bee - 2/25/1933
...to take the 'Baker Boy' Still 'SPOILER' of Heavywight Contenders by.....nlghways, I am beginning to take my BASEBALL seriously. Have decided to play..
Danville, Virginia   Saturday, February 25, 1933  705 k

Bismarck Tribune - 3/29/1933
...March (fi Johnny Risko, the "Old SPOILER" of heavyweight championship.....Dale Gear. i A meeting of Dickinson BASEBALL enGear Wednesday said Des..
Bismarck, North Dakota   Wednesday, March 29, 1933  644 k

News - 6/28/1933
...have to run triplehave said, the mere BASEBALL changes, I BASEBALL down in the.....of Niagara, Alls ssaadog OB ibe old SPOILER. tbe baata yellisg. as a great..
Frederick, Maryland   Wednesday, June 28, 1933  626 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  6 08:53:15 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 04:53:15 EDT
Subject: Great Communicator (1976)
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.045315.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GREAT COMMUNICATOR--23,900 Google hits, 7,320 Google Groups hits
GREAT COMMUNICATOR + REAGAN--6,930 Google hits, 2,310 Google Groups hits
GREAT COMMUNICATOR + MCLUHAN--52 Google hits, 2 Google Groups hits


   "Great Communicator" was the popular nickname of the late President Ronald
Reagan.  Was it coined for Ronald Reagan in THE NEW YORK TIMES?  Was it
coined for Marshall McLuhan in THE NEW YORK TIMES?


(GOOGLE NEWS)
News results for "great communicator" - View today's top stories
America Mourns 'Great Communicator' Ronald Reagan - Reuters - 35 minutes ago
Reporter invited to hear 'Great Communicator' - Minneapolis Star Tribune
(subscription) - 5 hours ago
'Great Communicator' Redefined Nation's, World's Agenda - Washington Post - 7
hours ago


(NEW YORK PUBLIC LIBRARY CATALOG)
1       Ronald Reagan : the wisdom and humour of the Great Communicator /
edited by Frederick J. Ryan Jr.     1995
2       Ronald Reagan : the great communicator / Kurt Ritter and David Henry
; foreword by Bernard K. Duffy.      1992
3       The Reagan presidency : an actor's finest performance / Wilbur Edel.
    c1992
4       The great communicator / by Jim Borgman ; with an introduction by
Susan Stamberg.     c1985


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Post Crescent - 2/1/1976
...and not caught on. Ronald REAGAN is GREAT 'COMMUNICATOR. Eastern liberals
be.....making a GREAT mistake if they underestimate..
Appleton, Wisconsin Sunday, February 01, 1976  574 k
Pg. B-2, col. 3, "Your guide to cliches for '76" by Russell Baker:
Q:  Would you tell us the appropriate phrases for uttering about the other
candidates during conversations about the campaign?
A:  Gladly.  When referring to Birch Bayh, the appropriate phrase is "the
Hoosier Democrat."  Senator Jackson "lacks charisma" and "has not caught on."
Ronald Reagan is "a great communicator."

Chronicle Telegram - 6/21/1981
...cutting plan. REAGAN'S SKILLS as "the GREAT COMMUNICATOR" will be used
again.....the bridge is there or not. I think a GREAT many of us would like to
see the..
Elyria, Ohio Sunday, June 21, 1981  502 k

Mountain Democrat - 8/14/1981
...called President Ronald REAGAN a "GREAT COMMUNICATOR and a GREAT man..
Placerville, California Friday, August 14, 1981  280 k

Chronicle Telegram - 12/9/1981
...Behind his back, they call him the GREAT COMMUNICATOR. Anyway,
Congress.....administration. President Ronald REAGAN began his tenure in office by..
Elyria, Ohio Wednesday, December 09, 1981  455 k

Frederick Post - 12/27/1983
...The magazine dubbed REAGAN "the GREAT COMMUNICATOR" who gained the.....Dan
Poole, auctioneer, manager. REAGAN, Andropov 'men of the year' Super..
Frederick, Maryland Tuesday, December 27, 1983  526 k


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Sp. cons. subcom legislative oversight U.S. Ho. of Reps., et al;
WHO'S WHO IN AMERICA. With World Notables. A Biographical Dictionary of Notable
Living Men and Women. 2,563 pp. Chicago: Marquis-Who's Who. $29.75 from the
publisher, $35 at bookstores. Sp. cons., et al
By MARVIN KITMAN. New York Times (1857-Current. Jun 23, 1968. p. BR2 (4
pages)
First page:  For a sketch-writer who did the piece about Marshall McLuhan,
the "communications specialist" on page 2,505, there also must have been a sense
of real achievement.  Her biography was clearer than anything the great
communicator ever wrote.

    2.  Magazines Woo Agencies' Creative Men
By PHILIP H. DOUGHERTY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.:
Oct 19, 1969. p. F18 (1 page):
   He said agency people were quite willing to recognize that the
(Reader's-ed.) Digest is a great communicator, and often he finds them eager to learn
some of the magazine's editorial techniques.

    3.  Woman as a Groaning Board
By ANATOLE BROYARD. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr
10, 1972. p. 33 (1 page):
   The love instructors, the poets of the bedroom, the great communicators,
are often divorces with no wish to remarry.

    4.  Students Discover America; Foreign Students Find More Than Violence,
Wealth Here
By Jane Seaberry Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post
(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Aug 8, 1974. p. G1 (2 pages)
Second page (G3, col. 3):  She said games and music are great communicators.


    5.  Wisdom Of the Sages
By Russell Baker. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 27,
1976. p. 29 (1 page)
(See Newspaperarchive, above--ed.)


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sun Jun  6 15:33:39 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 11:33:39 -0400
Subject: Pol's vowels
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.113339.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Noticeable in today's news coverage, that, even in speaking with people
from Dixon IL, the pronunciation RAYG at N seems now to be universal.  Legend
has it that it was Nancy who changed it from the REEG at N by which he was
known when a movie actor, & presumably before that.
Cheney has been granted a similar vowel switch (from CHEE-NEY to CHAY-NEY).
Is this supposed to sound classier? (The name of the art historian, Sheldon
Cheney, was also pronounced chAYney by a profesor of mine, though a friend
of Cheney's told me chEEney was correct.)
Brian Mulroney, PM of Canada in the '80s, pronounced his name MULROONEY,
though relatives of his in Ireland said they thought that an affectation.
In the case of Colin Powell, the change to the long O in Colin is more in
keeping with (what seems to be) ordinary American practice, similar to that
found in Basil & Cecil, where the first vowels are lengthened.
A. Murie


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  6 18:39:40 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 14:39:40 EDT
Subject: Chili Mac (1903); Chile today and hot tamale (1928); Gedunk
 (1925, 1926)
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.143940.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CHILI MAC

   "Chili caught fire in the Midwest, where the most popular variety was
'chili mac,' a relatively bland garlic-free dish served in taverns, diners, and
cafes that was a melange of meat sauce, peppers, tomatoes, and elbow macaroni."
--THE WORLD ON A PLATE: A TOUR THROUGH THE HISTORY OF AMERICA'S ETHNIC
CUISINE (2003) by Joel Denker, pg. 142.

   I had previously posted 1925 for this dish, but I didn't then have the
ProQuest databases available from home, and the Chicago Tribune wasn't in
ProQuest at that time.  A re-check shows 1903, but the Chicago Tribune is nowhere in
sight!  There's a 26-year gap here?


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Front Page 2 -- No Title
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 22, 1903. p. 1 (1
page):
     Hot Tamales and Chili Mac, at 503 12th st. nw.  Open till 1 a. m.

    2.  Front Page 2 -- No Title
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 28, 1903. p. 1 (1
page)

    3.  Display Ad 42 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 26, 1929. p.
A7 (1 page)

    4.  Classified Ad 14 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 17, 1933. p.
A13 (1 page)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CHILE TODAY AND HOT TAMALE

   A "classic."


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
 Comic 4 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 10, 1928. p.
11 (1 page) :
   _The Shanghai Jester_
   "How do you like the climate?" we asked John Chinaman, as he handed him
our laundry check.
   "Chile today and hot tamale," he replied, as he blew an opium ring over
the clothespin.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
GEDUNK

   "Harold Teen," a popular comic in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, was famous for the
"gedunk sundae."  For whatever reason, the comic does not appear to be in the
search engine's capability.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("gedunk")
    1.  Other 2 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 27, 1925. p. 8 (1 page)
:
_To Eingetunkt Is One Thing; to Gedunk Is ANother._
   Sir:  For the benefit of those Deutschverderbers who are using the Line
for their outrageous "gedunking," I wish to submit the following vocabulary: The
verb TUNKEN or EINTUNKEN: the perfect participle is EINGETUNKT, and the noun
id TUNKER.  But your benighted contribs use one word for all three meanings,
and that word is spelled wrong!  ES IST ZUM LACHEN!
   GRETCHEN.

    2.  Other 3 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Feb 3, 1925. p. 8 (1 page)
:
_Oh, We Gedunk Our Ice Cream in Black Coffee._
   R. H. L."  Three cheers for "Just Me" and her poem _Doppa_.  Ask her does
she know about "Sukar pa bit?"  It's the act of dopping a lump of sugar in
unsweetened coffee (the second cup _only_) and sucking it.  Umm!  It's done in
the best of Swedish circles.  Try it, you Gedunkers!
   DOODLES.

    3.  Other 3 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Feb 28, 1925. p. 4 (1
page):
   ...but would you mind gedunking this item in your column?
   WINDY

    4.  A LINE O' TYPE OR TWO
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 29, 1925. p. 8 (1 page)
:
_Gosh!  They're Going to Gedunk 'em._
(Children and water--ed.)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("gedunk sundae")
VOICE OF THE PEOPLE; NOISE.
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 10, 1926. p. 8 (1 page)
:
      _GEDUNK SUNDAES._
   Chicago, March 4.  You possess one comic feature that is changing the
habits of the nation.  I refer to Harold Teen and his Gedunk sundae.
   I have two children, a boy and a girl, now of high school age, and I have
spent many a painstaking hour teaching them correct table manners.  Their
conduct was above reproach until the notorious Gedunk sundae made its appearance.
   First my boy succumbed and then my girl.  I had their father investigate
at our corner drug store, and he too succumbed.
   The whole situation has been very amusing to me.  Carl Ed is certainly in
a class by himself.  No other comic printed contains as much human interest
and at the same time as much fun.  He is certainly the "Booth Tarkington of
cartoonists."
   MRS. E. A. EDMONDS.


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Sun Jun  6 20:10:28 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 16:10:28 -0400
Subject: Chili Mac (1903); Chile today and hot tamale (1928); Gedunk
 (1925, 1926)
In-Reply-To: <200406061139.1bx2yO5Xb3NZFk70@mamo>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.161028.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 6, 2004, at 2:39 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Chili Mac (1903); Chile today and hot tamale (1928);
> Gedunk
>               (1925, 1926)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> CHILI MAC
>
>    "Chili caught fire in the Midwest, where the most popular variety
> was
> 'chili mac,' a relatively bland garlic-free dish served in taverns,
> diners, and
> cafes that was a melange of meat sauce, peppers, tomatoes, and elbow
> macaroni."
> --THE WORLD ON A PLATE: A TOUR THROUGH THE HISTORY OF AMERICA'S ETHNIC
> CUISINE (2003) by Joel Denker, pg. 142.
>
>    I had previously posted 1925 for this dish, but I didn't then have
> the
> ProQuest databases available from home, and the Chicago Tribune wasn't
> in
> ProQuest at that time.  A re-check shows 1903, but the Chicago Tribune
> is nowhere in
> sight!  There's a 26-year gap here?
>
>
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>     1.  Front Page 2 -- No Title
> The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 22, 1903. p. 1
> (1
> page):
>      Hot Tamales and Chili Mac, at 503 12th st. nw.  Open till 1 a. m.
>
>     2.  Front Page 2 -- No Title
> The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 28, 1903. p. 1
> (1
> page)
>
>     3.  Display Ad 42 -- No Title
> Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 26,
> 1929. p.
> A7 (1 page)
>
>     4.  Classified Ad 14 -- No Title
> Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 17,
> 1933. p.
> A13 (1 page)
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> ---------------------------------------------
> CHILE TODAY AND HOT TAMALE
>
>    A "classic."
>
>
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>  Comic 4 -- No Title
> Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 10,
> 1928. p.
> 11 (1 page) :
>    _The Shanghai Jester_
>    "How do you like the climate?" we asked John Chinaman, as he handed
> him
> our laundry check.
>    "Chile today and hot tamale," he replied, as he blew an opium ring
> over
> the clothespin.
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> ---------------------------------------------
> GEDUNK
>
>    "Harold Teen," a popular comic in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, was famous
> for the
> "gedunk sundae."  For whatever reason, the comic does not appear to be
> in the
> search engine's capability.

FWIW: Carl Frank Ludwig Ed was the man who first celebrated the
juvenile teens in a comic strip. ... Ed's talent was noticed by a
co-publisher of the Chicago Tribune, who hired him to undertake the
nation's first strip about a boy in his teens in 1918. 'Harold Teen'
was read widely by teenagers of the day.
[from Comic-Art.com]

-Wilson Gray

> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("gedunk")
>     1.  Other 2 -- No Title
> Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 27, 1925. p. 8
> (1 page)
> :
> _To Eingetunkt Is One Thing; to Gedunk Is ANother._
>    Sir:  For the benefit of those Deutschverderbers who are using the
> Line
> for their outrageous "gedunking," I wish to submit the following
> vocabulary: The
> verb TUNKEN or EINTUNKEN: the perfect participle is EINGETUNKT, and
> the noun
> id TUNKER.  But your benighted contribs use one word for all three
> meanings,
> and that word is spelled wrong!  ES IST ZUM LACHEN!
>    GRETCHEN.
>
>     2.  Other 3 -- No Title
> Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Feb 3, 1925. p. 8 (1
> page)
> :
> _Oh, We Gedunk Our Ice Cream in Black Coffee._
>    R. H. L."  Three cheers for "Just Me" and her poem _Doppa_.  Ask
> her does
> she know about "Sukar pa bit?"  It's the act of dopping a lump of
> sugar in
> unsweetened coffee (the second cup _only_) and sucking it.  Umm!  It's
> done in
> the best of Swedish circles.  Try it, you Gedunkers!
>    DOODLES.
>
>     3.  Other 3 -- No Title
> Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Feb 28, 1925. p. 4 (1
> page):
>    ...but would you mind gedunking this item in your column?
>    WINDY
>
>     4.  A LINE O' TYPE OR TWO
> Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 29, 1925. p. 8
> (1 page)
> :
> _Gosh!  They're Going to Gedunk 'em._
> (Children and water--ed.)
>
>
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("gedunk sundae")
> VOICE OF THE PEOPLE; NOISE.
> Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 10, 1926. p. 8
> (1 page)
> :
>       _GEDUNK SUNDAES._
>    Chicago, March 4.  You possess one comic feature that is changing
> the
> habits of the nation.  I refer to Harold Teen and his Gedunk sundae.
>    I have two children, a boy and a girl, now of high school age, and
> I have
> spent many a painstaking hour teaching them correct table manners.
> Their
> conduct was above reproach until the notorious Gedunk sundae made its
> appearance.
>    First my boy succumbed and then my girl.  I had their father
> investigate
> at our corner drug store, and he too succumbed.
>    The whole situation has been very amusing to me.  Carl Ed is
> certainly in
> a class by himself.  No other comic printed contains as much human
> interest
> and at the same time as much fun.  He is certainly the "Booth
> Tarkington of
> cartoonists."
>    MRS. E. A. EDMONDS.
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun  6 20:31:49 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 16:31:49 -0400
Subject: Chili Mac (1903); Chile today and hot tamale (1928); Gedunk
 (1925, 1926)
In-Reply-To: <149.2b17ec66.2df4beec@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.163149.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>GEDUNK
>
>    "Harold Teen," a popular comic in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, was famous for the
>"gedunk sundae."  For whatever reason, the comic does not appear to be in the
>search engine's capability.

"Gedunk" was used for "dunk" (e.g., doughnut): I don't know whether this
was mock-German or a nonsense augmentation (like "ker-plunk" maybe). The
"g" is always /g/ AFAIK.

"Gedunk" was also used like (and likely based on?) "Podunk" occasionally,
apparently referring to a small town.

"Gedunk" (also with other spellings) became US Navy slang for "ice cream"
(by WW II) and also for other sweets/snacks ... and also for a Navy
ice-cream stand or small store (e.g., on a ship). It's still current AFAIK.

Just in case some might not be familiar with this odd word.

-- Doug Wilson


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun  6 21:26:36 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 17:26:36 -0400
Subject: "hot dog"--Sam Clements' 1937, 1939 attestations
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.172636.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To add a new quote to the mix, and to try to convince people that the use of
the terms to refer to the bright young men who worked for Felix Frankfurter
was possibly a continuation of the "hot dog" term used about individuals in
the 1890's? and picked up again in sports in the 1950's and later, I offer
an earlier cite.

11 April 1934  _Monessen(PA) Daily Independent_   4/4 (Newspaperarchive)
>From the syndicated column called "National Whirligig"

<<If all the stories around town are true, Dr. Wirt got himself all hot and
bothered over the theories of a much newer group.
    This is the band of proteges that Dr. Felix Frankfurter planted in a
score of periscope positions in the New Deal.  Most of them are in Federal
legal divisions.  They answer to the name either of Young Liberals or Hot
Dogs.  They have pulled quite an oar in a more or less unobstrusive way.  In
many respects they're carrying on for the Brain Trust but they weren't in
the first draft.>>

I think they were being called "hot dogs" because of being given
responsibilities at a young age that in other times would have been given to
older hands.

Sam Clements


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Cohen" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: "hot dog"--Sam Clements' 1937, 1939 attestations


> Again, my thanks to Sam Clements and Douglas Wilson for their new
> "hot dog" attestations. Here now are my thoughts about Sam's material:
>
> 2) We must be careful about placing the "hot-dogger" attestations of
> the 1930's in the semantic context of 1890's "hot dog" (show off),
> for which there are no unambiguous attestations in the 1910's, '20's
> or '30's.
> The context for "hot dog(ger)" that we do find in the 1930s is one of
> inferior/second-rate boxers, with the term extended to movies,
> golfing (with shift of meaning to "as yet unknown golfers"), and
> probably baseball (with shift to "show-off"; truly inferior
> ballplayers are quickly released by professional teams). So
> "hot-dog(ger)" in the 1930s-1940s was becoming an all-purpose
> put-down, traceable ultimately to the departure of boxing fans to get
> hot dogs and other refreshments when the preliminary bouts (with
> their second-rate boxers) were underway.
>
> 3) The 1937 quote would fit the sense of a general put-down of
> s.o/s.th. as second-rate. Also, the connecting of the already
> existing "hot dog(ger)" (s.o./sth. inferior) with the Supreme-Court
> judge named (Felix) Frankfurter was no doubt too tempting to pass up.
>
> 4) The 1939 quote says: '...You had to look twice--sometimes three
> times--before you could believe that here was the sire of the brain
> trust, the "hot dogger" whose name has provoked such wrath in
> anti-New Deal circles.'). I believe that in calling Frankfurter a
> "hot dogger whose name has provoked such wrath in anti-New Deal
> circles," the writer is likening the judge to the incompetent boxers
> whose performance would evoke cries of "Throw the bum out." The focus
> here is not on Frankfurter the "sire (of the brain trust)"--which
> would suggest pomposity and hence "show-off") but Frankfurter the
> incompetent/the second-rate/the bum.
>
> ***
>
> At 10:23 PM -0400 5/29/04, Sam Clements wrote:
> >From: Sam Clements <SClements at NEO.RR.COM>
> >
> >Just to add to Doug's posts......
> >
> >I propose that he's correct, it is merely a continuation of the term that
> >existed many years before.  And I further propose that it was resurrected
to
> >apply to Felix Frankfurter and his protege's.
> >
> >There are fascinating cites from Newspaperarchive.
> >
> >1937-- "EXPERT--Another man frequently assailed as a "Roosevelt brain
> >truster" or a "Frankfurter hot-dogger" is Mordecai Ezekiel, chief
economic
> >adviser of the department of agriculture."
> >
> >1939--"SHREWD--Felix Frankfurter has become almost a myth to the American
> >people, and like most fictitious characters he doesn't fit the popular
> >conception of himself at all.  He is not the pompous, professorial,
radical
> >being he had been painted by enemies, not the saint of the cloisters his
> >worshipers make him out to be. <snip> You had to look twice--sometimes
three
> >times--before you could believe that here was the sire of the brain
trust,
> >the "hot dogger" whose name has provoked such wrath in anti-New Deal
> >circles."
> >
> >I think the 1950's? sports metaphor was only a continuation of Felix "hot
> >dog" Frankfurter.  His high profile perhaps brought the old term into use
> >again.
> >
> >SC
>
>
> Gerald Cohen
>
> >
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun  6 22:58:34 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 18:58:34 EDT
Subject: "Scam"--1963 "origin unknown" (1959)
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.185834.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SCAM
  
_Couple slam adoption "scam" lawyer_
--NEW YORK POST, 6 June 2004, pg. 12 headline
    
(ADS-L ARCHIVES, 30 September 2003)
Barry,
I really enjoy your contributions to the list. One word you might be 
interested in antedating is scam, which only goes back to 1963 in OED and elsewhere.
All the best,
Brian   
  
  
   All right, the LOS ANGELES TIMES digitization is up to 1963, and it's time 
to work on "scam."
   There is an ocean of bad hits, usually for "seam" or "scum" or "slam" or 
"scan."  All the tricks were tried--limiting the time span to a few years 
before 1963, adding the words "carnival" or "carny" or "slang," and using the forms 
"scamming" and "scammer."
    However, limiting the time period from 1950-1963 still yields 2,245 
ProQuest "hits."
    Maybe it's a secret acronym for Santa Claus?  We still dunno.  Wait for 
the CHICAGO TRIBUNE digitization.  How are the WESTLAW criminal cites for 
"scam," "scamming," and "scammer"?
  
  
(MERRIAM-WEBSTER)
Main Entry: 1scam     Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: skam
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1963
: a fraudulent or deceptive act or operation <an insurance scam>    
    
  
CASSELL DICTIONARY OF SLANG (1998)
by Jonathon Green
Pg. 1033:
scam n. {1960s+] ... [? SE _scheme_}

    
(OED)
SCAM (noun)
slang (orig. and chiefly U.S.).
[Origin obscure.] 
  1. a. A trick, a ruse; a swindle, a racket. Also attrib. 
  1963 Time 28 June 48/2 He..worked..as a carny huckster... ?It was a full 
scam.? 1971 Harper's Mag. Feb. 89 A gambling house is a sitting duck to every 
con man or outlaw who comes through; he is invariably convinced that he has a 
scam that you have never seen before. 1972 Sunday Mail (Brisbane) 2 July 19/6 It 
was necessary to the success of the latest ?scam? that it be worked in 
places where $25 chips were constantly in play. 1975 J. F. BURKE Death Trick (1976) 
iv. 64 Hustling of any kind he could live with in his hotel, dope-dealing, 
selling ass, almost any scam, even burglary. 1976 M. MACHLIN Pipeline v. 58 
Gamblers, pimps, whores, conmen, and scam artists of every persuasion were drawn 
to the scene like sharks. 1978 M. PUZO Fools Die xii. 131 The bribe-taking scam 
had been going on for nearly two years without any kind of hitch.
 
    b. spec. A fraudulent bankruptcy (see quot. 1966). Also attrib. 
 
  1966 Wall Street Jrnl. 9 Sept. 1/1 (heading) ?Fat Man? Scolnick & ?scams?
... They're known as ?scam? operators, promoters who set up ostensibly 
legitimate businesses, order large amounts of merchandise on credit, sell it fast 
and strictly for cashand then go ?bankrupt?, leaving their creditors unpaid. 
1968 J. M. ULLMAN Lady on Fire (1969) xiv. 181 ?The main plan's to go 
bankrupt... The suppliers will be stuck with unpaid bills for millions. There's a name 
for that? ?Scam game,? Forbes said. 1974 N.Y. Times 8 July 26/1 Organized 
crime is stealing millions of dollars from the public through planned fraudulent 
bankruptcies, called ?scams? by the underworld.
 
    2. A story; a rumour; information. 
 
  1964 Guardian 8 July 7/6 ?People want the 1930s all over again: a thousand 
naked chorus girls dancing in a pink smog under crystal chandeliers on a 
revolving staircase on an Alp.?.. ?Didn't someone tell us once that Hollywood went 
bust with that scam?? 1966 Amer. Speech XLI. 281 Lowdown, scam, the word, 
information. 1972 W. MCGIVERN Caprifoil (1973) viii. 137 There's been a security 
break... He's scheduled a press conference... The scam is he's going to break 
what we know on Spencer. 1972 J. WAMBAUGH Blue Knight (1973) i. 28, I paid 
them [sc. informers] from my pocket, and when I made the bust on the scam they 
gave me, I made it look like I lucked on to the arrest. 1976 New Musical Express 
17 Apr. 10/2 No, still no scam on Donny and Marie.
  
 
(OED)
SCAM (verb)
slang (orig. and chiefly U.S.).
 [Origin obscure: cf. prec.]     intr. and trans. To perpetrate a fraud; to 
cheat, trick, or swindle. Hence scamming vbl. n. (in sense 1b of SCAM n.). 
  1963 Time 28 June 48/2 My boss was scammin' from the public, and I was 
scammin' from him. 1966 Wall Street Jrnl. 9 Sept. 1/1 ?Scam? originally was a 
carnival term meaning ?to fleece the public?. 1974 Whig-Standard (Kingston, 
Ont.) 9 Apr. 4/1 Scamming..is a form of criminal bankruptcy in which a front man 
buys out a legitimate firm and then uses the credit rating of the firm to buy 
large quantities of merchandise. Ibid. 4/3 Scamming, he said, ranks second only 
to bookmaking in financial importance to criminals. 1977 New Yorker 30 May 
96/2 Local citizens..try to avoid being scammed by the familiar tergiversations 
of city politicians.
 
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
On Language; Stings and Scams Downhill Mondegreens 
By William Safire. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 2, 
1980. p. SM3 (1 page) :
   "Scam" has a simpler history.  The word was spawned at carnivals, where 
games of chance were rigged to fleece customers.  Some say it may have come from 
"scamp's game"; others point to the word's possible origin as a variant of 
"shame," but that's all guesswork--no precarny citations have been found.

  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("scamp's game")
No hits
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("scamp's game")
No hits
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("scam" and "scamp")
    1.  AFFAIRS IN ENGLAND.; The Revolutionary Barenet A Clouded Horizon The 
Question of National Education Literary Gossip The Metropolitan Theatres. A 
STORM BREWING. LITERARY GOSSIP. THE LONDON THEATRES. 
>From Our Own Correspondent.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, 
N.Y.: Dec 9, 1871. p. 2 (1 page) 
       
    2.  Classified Ad 33 -- No Title
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Nov 10, 
1973. p. C44 (1 page) 
      
    3.  Classified Ad 13 -- No Title
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: Dec 13, 
1973. p. C27 (1 page) 
       
    4.  Classified Ad 19 -- No Title
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Sep 11, 1974. p. 
C29 (1 page) 
       
    5.  Display Ad 92 -- No Title
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Mar 26, 1977. p. 
D39 (1 page) 
      
    6.  Display Ad 110 -- No Title
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Apr 29, 1977. p. 
C25 (1 page) 
     
    7.  On Language; Stings and Scams Downhill Mondegreens 
By William Safire. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 2, 
1980. p. SM3 (1 page)   
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("scam" and "scamp")
24 hits, none relevant
   
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("scam" and "carny")
No hits
     
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("scam" and "scheme")
    29. Make New Fall Chair Covers
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 3, 1938. p. X13 (1 
page) 
    
    30. Cheaters Beat the New Las Vegas; A Gang Cheats Casinos In the New Las 
Vegas 
By WALLACE TURNERSpecial to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current 
file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 26, 1972. p. 1 (2 pages)  
    
     
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)("Scam" and "slang") (45 hits, most all of them 
bad--ed.)
Nevada State Journal - 8/31/1968    
...in a column: "Speaking of SLANG, the SCAM restaurant in L.A. got its 
name.....game of chance" Could Be, Could Be But SCAM happens to be the initials of 
the..
Reno, Nevada Saturday, August 31, 1968  807 k       
Pg. 4, col. 4, "On Broadway" by Walter Winchell:
   Item in a column:  "Speaking of slang, the Scam restaurant in L.A. got its 
name from an expression used to describe a dishonest carnival game of 
chance."...Could Be, Could Be...But Scam happens to be the initials of the co-owners: 
Steve Crane and Al Mathis.
      
 
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("scamming")
Chronicle Telegram - 9/10/1965  
...more popular con games this season is "SCAMMING." The players get hold of 
some.....have deserted for new, challenging SCAMMING situations. A travel 
agency was..
Elyria, Ohio Friday, September 10, 1965  763 k   
Pg. 26, col. 3:
_SOUND, ESTABLISHED FIRMS BILKED_
_AS SCAMMERS LEAP TO THE KILL_
by Cyrus Barrett, Jr.
(...)
   DEAR FURPO:  One of the more popular con games this season is "Scamming."  
The players get hold of some company with a good established credit rating 
and start buying merchandise or materials for resale.  Upon delivery, they dump 
it at quick sale prices.  Suppliers, closing in for their money, find they 
simply were not quick enough.   The new owners have deserted for new, challenging 
scamming situations.  (...)  With adroit minds, scammers seem to jump from 
business to business like Rubio winning the Grand National steeple chase.
    
Manitowoc Herald Times - 9/10/1965  
...have deserted for new, challenging SCAMMING situations. A travel agency 
was..
Manitowoc, Wisconsin Friday, September 10, 1965  882 k      
    
Sheboygan Press - 9/10/1965     
...more popular con games this season is "SCAMMING." The players get hold of 
some.....have deserted for new, challenging SCAMMING situations. A travel 
agency was..
Sheboygan, Wisconsin Friday, September 10, 1965  662 k      
      
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("scamming")
    1.  Classified Ad 19 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 27, 1951. p. 22 (1 
page) 
(BAD HIT?--ed.) 
    
    2.  Bankruptcy Expert Gives Advice After Adjudicating 5,000 Cases; 
Retiring Referee Advocates Rehabilitation Chance for Potential Failures Retiring 
Bankruptcy Referee Advises 
By ISADORE BARMASH. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 
4, 1965. p. F1 (2 pages)  
Second page (Pg. 18, col. 5):  The F. B. I. chief cited in particular a 
rising trend known as "scamming," a practice of deliberately planned banlruptcy for 
gain that has grossed its perpetrators $200 million a year nationally.
    
    
(WWW,NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Times Recorder - 6/30/1959  
...Each week it's another get-rich-quick SCAM filled with bold-face lies..
Zanesville, Ohio Tuesday, June 30, 1959  142 k      
(BAD HIT!  IT MENTIONS M*A*S*H ENDING ITS TELEVISION RUN!--ed.)
    
Van Nuys News - 7/30/1959   
...young compirs or occasional campirs "SCAM" bag. Complet. with htad flap 
and..
Van Nuys, California Thursday, July 30, 1959  443 k     
(A "SCAM BAG" IS INTRIGUING, BUT IT'S A "SCOUT BAG."  OY VEY IS MIR!--ed.)
  
Reno Evening Gazette - 12/1/1959    
...in the red under-ear, is the straight: SCAM, all ght. But there's more 
than one..
Reno, Nevada Tuesday, December 01, 1959  509 k   
Pg. 18, col. 3:
_Now Santa Claus Must Attend School to Catch the Spirit of Christmas_
   LOS ANGELES (AP)--Hang on Virginia, this thing is even bigger than we 
thought.
   All that jazz about the pudgy little joy-monger in the red underwear is 
the straight scam, all right.  But there's more than one.  We've found a place 
where they crank 'em out faster than second lieutenants.
  A kind of Santa Claus Candidates' School where they produce three-day 
winter wonders.
   The Volunteers of America have this Christmas program.   
     
Newark Advocate - 11/24/1960    
...little joy-rr.onger in the red is the SCAM, ai right. But there's more 
than..
Newark, Ohio Thursday, November 24, 1960  655 k 
Pg. 45, col. 1:
   Hang on, Virginia, this thing is even bigger than we thought.
   All that jazz about the pudgy little joy-monger in the red underwear is 
the straight scam, all right.  But there's more than one.  We've found a place 
in Los Angeles where they turn them out faster than you could harness a 
reindeer.
   The Volunteers of America have this good-cheer program.  They send out 
Santa Clauses to stand by red and white chimneys on the street and ring bells, 
tacitly inviting the passing public to drop a little something in the chimneys.  
     


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Mon Jun  7 02:25:29 2004
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 22:25:29 -0400
Subject: Dirty word fragments
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.222529.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the past, broadcast channels and radio have bleeped out offensive
words. I notice more recently, though, that such words are only clipped.
For example, an NPR show today had an interviewee repeatedly used the
word "assho[bleep]". I found it interesting that the "ass" part was
acceptable, even "assho", but there seemed to be something offensive
about the final consonant.

Offensive words are increasingly allowed to play themselves out to the
extent that they are perfectly recognizable with only a small piece
clipped off.  Why can we bear assho[bleep] but would assumedly be greatly
offended by asshole? Does this fool children who may be listening? Are
our broadcasters following primitive taboo customs?

Higher budget operations don't bleep, they dub. I watch Die Hard With a
Vengeance on broadcast channels just for the joy of hearing Samuel L.
Jackson call Bruce Willis a "dirty melon farmer."

D

I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Mon Jun  7 03:27:23 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 23:27:23 -0400
Subject: Dirty word fragments
In-Reply-To: <20040606.222535.-212749.15.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.232723.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was pleased to see that when PBS broadcast the documentary on the
Weathermen, they left all the cursing intact. It made a difference to
the tone, I think.

But it stands in curious contrast to the FCC reversal on the Bono
f-word usage at an awards ceremony: first they said there would be no
penalty, then they said there would be. Not a peep, as far as I ever
found, came out of the PBS Weathermen broadcast.

Which leads me to Eric Idle's FCC song, which can be found here, among
other places. If you're in a public space, wear headphones. It is
definitely not safe for work.

http://www.pythonline.com/plugs/idle/FCCSong.mp3

Grant

On Jun 6, 2004, at 22:25, Duane Campbell wrote:

> In the past, broadcast channels and radio have bleeped out offensive
> words. I notice more recently, though, that such words are only
> clipped.
> For example, an NPR show today had an interviewee repeatedly used the
> word "assho[bleep]". I found it interesting that the "ass" part was
> acceptable, even "assho", but there seemed to be something offensive
> about the final consonant.
>
> Offensive words are increasingly allowed to play themselves out to the
> extent that they are perfectly recognizable with only a small piece
> clipped off.  Why can we bear assho[bleep] but would assumedly be
> greatly
> offended by asshole? Does this fool children who may be listening? Are
> our broadcasters following primitive taboo customs?
>
> Higher budget operations don't bleep, they dub. I watch Die Hard With a
> Vengeance on broadcast channels just for the joy of hearing Samuel L.
> Jackson call Bruce Willis a "dirty melon farmer."
>
> D
>
> I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message
>
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  7 03:29:01 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 23:29:01 -0400
Subject: "Lai" Rice Balls,
 Ma Po Tofu or "Measled Woman" Bean Curd (Sichuan food)
Message-ID: <SUN.6.JUN.2004.232901.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MAPO + BEAN--3,970 Google hits, 34 Google Groups hits
MA PO + BEAN--3,780 Google hits, 167 Google Groups hits
("Mapo"/"Ma Po" is not in the revised OED--ed.)

   I've been eating at various places around town (New York City) while I stick around and wait for the computer databases to arrive. This is a break from my usual lifestyle of the cheapest/smallest/worst living conditions and food, reflecting my real status in this town and in life.
    This past Wednesday saw newspaper food reviews of a new Egyptian theme restaurant on East 59th and First Avenue, the new branch of Totonno's Pizzeria, and Abbondanza's on Bleecker--all placed I'd already been to.
   The past week I've been to the Ethiopian Restaurant on First Avenue, the Jasmine (Thai) Restaurant on Second Avenue, Curry Leaf (Indian) on "Curry Hill"/Lexington Avenue, a place in "Little Korea" (West 32nd Street), and Teodoro's (Italian) on East 57th and Lexington (it was featured in the Times magazine last Sunday).
   Today, I tried a place about a year old and just a block away--Grand Sichuan Eastern, 1049 Second Avenue, near 56th Street.  The menu is very informative, but it's not all on the internet as I was told it was:


http://www.thegrandsichuan.com/

...the excellent bean curd with spicy sauce ($7.25) is named after a woman with ''a spotty, pockmarked face.''
(MY DISH TONIGHT--ed.)
(...)
Ma po tofu, bean curd with spicy minced pork and chili peppers ($8.25), is a classic Sichuan dish, invented, the guide explains, by an old woman with a face pockmarked by measles.
(...)
The new dishes, all with poetic names and created for an emperor, include Growing Grass in Spring Must Be Like Green and Threaded Silk ($5.95), a mixture of fresh sliced vegetables served cold in a fiery yet flavorful sauce, which sets the mouth aglow and demands well-timed mouthfuls of rice and water. Another dish, Green Parrot With a Red Mouth ($4.95), cooked spinach served cool with a sauce of ginger and hot oil, is more refreshing than spicy with a gingery kick.
(...)
Most Chinese restaurants practice a time-honored deception, offering one menu to their Chinese customers and another to everybody else. Grand Sichuan takes a different tack: it labels dishes that it thinks will please American tastes as ''American Chinese,'' and also hands out a 27-page pamphlet that explains five Chinese regional cuisines and describes dozens of dishes the restaurant serves.
(THEY DIDN'T HAVE IT--I ASKED--ed.)


   From the menu (but not the web site):

PA PA VEGETABLES...8.95
(No Google hits--ed.)

STEWED CHICKEN WITH "WHITE FRUIT"...10.95
(Couldn't find the dish on Google--ed.)

EGGPLANTS WITH SICHUAN WONDER SAUCE...4.95
(Only 18 Google "wonder sauce" hits, with just a few for Chinese--ed.)

"LAI" STICK RICE BALLS W. SOUP...2.50
(Supposedly famous, but this was about the only Google hit--ed.)
clubs.asua.arizona.edu/~acss/old_issue/2000/0002/Feb11
... traditional rice balls for you that was made by myself. Its recipe is based on the
famous rice ball from Chengdu, Sichuan (it is called Lai Tang Yun, a famous ...
14k - Cached - Similar pages

"CHONG" CABBAGE...3.55
(Probably "chung choi"--ed.)
JOOK REPOST - CALVIN
... rock salt (or to your taste) 1/2 cup raw peanuts Garnish: chopped lettuce chung
choi, chopped fine (** Chung choi is a Chinese salted preserved cabbage. ...
alt.cooking-chien - Feb 6, 2000 by Connie Van - View Thread (1 article)


   For a bit more about that measled woman...


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("Mapo" + "Bean")(1 hit)
Looking for Nirvana on a Chinese Peak; It isn't easy to find amid the guides and peddlers of the holy Emei Shan Chinese Peak
By JOHN KRICH. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 9, 1992. p. XX22 (2 pages)

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("Ma Po" + "Bean")(11 hits)
   1. Scrutinizing Chinese Food
By FRED FERRETTI. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 1, 1978. p. C6 (1 page)
  "The Scrutable Feast is an odd and wonderous book.  (...)
Or Ma Po-style bean curd, a dish of ground pork and bean curd, so called nbecause Ma Po literally means pockmarked old woman.

   2. Hwei Ping; Richman on Restaurants
Phvllis C. Richman. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 14, 1979. p. SM32 (2 pages)

   3. DINING OUT From Hunan to Canton to Sichuan; *Woks
By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 4, 1979. p. LI21 (1 page)

   4. Sichuan Food--at the Source
By FOX BUTTERFIELD. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 5, 1980. p. C10 (1 page)

   5. A Peppery Tofu With Hot Beef Sauce; ONE GREAT DISH A Memorable Main Dish
By Roy Andries de Groot. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Oct 5, 1980. p. L1 (2 pages)

   6. Chinese Cuisine in a Tudor Setting
By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 29, 1984. p. LI21 (1 page)

   7. A Touch of Tofu Temptation
By Sharon Farrington Special to The Washington Post. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Apr 20, 1986. p. K2 (1 page)

   8. THE QUIZ; DINING '86 DINING '86 DINING '86 DINING '86 DINING '86 DINING '86 DINING '86 DINING '86
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Sep 21, 1986. p. SM38 (13 pages)

   9. Two to Square Off For the Tofu Trade; The Business of Tofu Tofu
By Carole Sugarman Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Nov 12, 1986. p. E12 (3 pages)

   10. $25 AND UNDER; Dishes for an Emperor at Every Meal Grand Sichuan International Midtown
Eric Asimov. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 13, 2000. p. F9 (1 page)

   11. Sichuan Cooks Relight The Fire; Sichuan Cooks Relight the Fire BRAISED FISH AND NAPA CABBAGE WITN CHILIES TWICE-COOKED PORK
FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 6, 2000. p. F1 (2 pages)


(GOOGLE)
http://starbulletin.com/columnist/column.php?id=4810&col_id=40
Chinese recipe comes with language class
Wednesday, October 22, 2003

Popo and Mapo are both older Chinese women. Popo is an older woman grandma and Mapo is an older woman with an imperfect complexion. Perhaps she is also a grandma, but not necessarily.
It's amazing what you can learn when cruising the Internet in search of stray facts, in this case the origin of the Szechwan dish Mapo Tofu.

According to www.orientalfoodmaster.com, the dish was created by "an old lady who resided in Szechwan a long time ago." Her face had been scarred by the measles, thus people called her "Mapo," (ma meaning pock-marked and po meaning elderly woman).

You also may be interested to know that Mapo Tofu was among dishes prepared by Iron Chef Chen Kenichi in 1999, when the final episodes of "Iron Chef" were filmed. You can read about this in great detail at www.ironchef.com.

The secret ingredient of the match was Tokyo-X, a type of pork developed by crossing three breeds (Beijing black pig, Berkshire and Durock). Chen won the battle.

All of this is apropos of nothing, except that Thelma Lee has asked for the recipe for Mapo Tofu from Ciao Mein Restaurant at the Hyatt Regency Waikiki Resort & Spa.

Mapo Tofu is typically made with a little bit of pork and a lot of tofu, seasoned to heightened awareness with chile sauces -- usually a hot black bean sauce and/or a chile-garlic sauce. These are available at Asian groceries and sometimes in the Asian sections of mainstream supermarkets.

Chef Hing Lim Lee from Ciao Mein prefers Yeo's brand of hot bean sauce, which is sold at 99 Ranch Market. The sauce aisle at 99 is a fascinating place, by the way, full of variety and all kinds of brands. Bring your reading glasses to study the labels; it can be hard to pick out exactly what you're looking for.


Mapo Tofu
2 ounces ground pork hash
1 tablespoon vegetable oil
2 ounces (1/4 cup) chile-garlic sauce (Yeo's brand preferred)
2 ounces (1/4 cup) hot bean sauce (Yeo's brand preferred)
6 ounces (3/4 cup) chicken broth
Sugar to taste
Salt to taste
1 teaspoon mushroom-flavored dark soy sauce (Pearl River Bridge brand preferred)
Red chile peppers, to taste
1 block soft tofu, cut in cubes
1 teaspoon sesame oil
2 tablespoons cornstarch dissolved in 2 tablespoons water
Chopped green onions, for garnish

Stir-fry pork in oil in a wok. Add chile-garlic and hot bean sauces, broth, sugar and salt. Bring to a boil.
Add soy sauce and chile peppers. Add tofu. Return to a boil. Cook until tofu is hot in the center. Add sesame oil. Fold in cornstarch mixture to thicken, as needed. Do not overmix the sauce.

Serve over rice and garnish with green onions. Serves 2.

Approximate nutritional analysis, per serving (not including rice, or sugar or salt to taste : 450 calories, 28 g total fat, 5 g saturated fat, 10 mg cholesterol, greater than 2,300 mg sodium, 23 g carbohydrate, 27 g protein


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Jun  7 04:26:43 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 00:26:43 -0400
Subject: "Scam"--1963 "origin unknown" (1959)
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.002643.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Westlaw isn't much help, beyond its descriptions of some of the frauds for which "scam" was used in the 1960s.  The earliest I found was a 1967 case, referring to events of 1962:

        <<Hartman agreed to work as a buyer and salesman. Wolcoff told him his duties were to telephone manufacturers, wholesalers and factory representatives listed in the yellow pages of the telephone book, and to place orders for merchandise. Hartman was told to keep his orders down to about $25 to $50 because 'Well, if we have to scam we have got to have small bills because the creditors won't come after us on a scam for small bills, but they would for big ones.'
. . .

        The word 'scam' was used throughout the trial. One of the defendants explained that 'scam' was the ordering of merchandise on credit and not paying for it, and thereafter going into phoney bankruptcy to beat the creditors out of the purchase price of the goods ordered.>>

United States v. Wolcoff, 379 F.2d 521, 523 (7th Cir.), cert. denied, 389 U.S. 929 (1967).

        It may be worth noting that there are references to a Scam Instrument Corporation as late as 1972.  Presumably "scam" was no longer considered a viable corporate name after about that date.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Bapopik at AOL.COM
Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 6:59 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: "Scam"--1963 "origin unknown" (1959)


SCAM

   All right, the LOS ANGELES TIMES digitization is up to 1963, and it's time
to work on "scam."
   There is an ocean of bad hits, usually for "seam" or "scum" or "slam" or
"scan."  All the tricks were tried--limiting the time span to a few years
before 1963, adding the words "carnival" or "carny" or "slang," and using the forms
"scamming" and "scammer."
    However, limiting the time period from 1950-1963 still yields 2,245
ProQuest "hits."
    Maybe it's a secret acronym for Santa Claus?  We still dunno.  Wait for
the CHICAGO TRIBUNE digitization.  How are the WESTLAW criminal cites for
"scam," "scamming," and "scammer"?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  7 04:48:51 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 00:48:51 -0400
Subject: Clover Club (1911), Pegu, Sam Ward (1889) cocktails
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.004851.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  Not the three most famous cocktails, perhaps, but famous in their days.   I'll check each of my drink books later for earlier cites.

--------------------------------------------------------------
CLOVER CLUB

CLOVER CLUB + COCKTAIL--4,800 Google hits, 15 Google Groups hits

   Several hits (Washington Post and NY Times) are 1911 and nothing is before that, although the "Clover Club" did exist in Philadelphia in the 1800s.


(OED)
1925 E. WALLACE King by Night xlii. 186 *Clover Club cocktails, John. 1931 A. POWELL Afternoon Men xiv. 147 He..went to the bar and ordered two clover-clubs and a sidecar.


(GOOGLE)
http://hotwired.wired.com/cocktail/98/05/index3a.html
Clover Club

This drink's luck ran out about 50 years ago. Like a has-been whose name is only vaguely remembered, the Clover Club - still included in all the revered records of classic cocktails - now garners respect only for its venerable age. Name-dropping bartenders often cite the refreshing gin potion, but they'd be hard pressed to mix it. Of course, few imbibers would bother to actually refer to these as mixers, based on their bluster. After all, most shun anything dubbed Clover Club, associating the phrase with corner bars of the same name - most of which are only a slight stumble beyond the less endearing dives named after various states of drunkenness.

But we like the Clover Club and make no inferences about its name. When prompt and polite with its recipe, we've been served it at every bar where we've asked for it. With the prosy precepts of mixing 1 1/2 ounces gin, 1/4 ounce grenadine or raspberry syrup, 3/4 ounce lemon juice, and - as startling as it might sound - an egg white (which we do skip when goaded), this aperitif's as rousing as most made with gin. But the Clover Club's ambrosia of fruit syrups keeps the drink's edge from digging too deep, particularly on evenings when we've had no more than the day's usual vexation.

Almost certainly invented during the Old School of American Bartending, from 1897 until 1919, the Clover Club began to brave mild baiting during the early '30s, starting with the Old School itself: "A Philadelphia importation," wrote historian Albert Stevens Crockett in the Old Waldorf-Astoria Bar Book of 1933, the drink "originated in the bar of the old Bellevue-Stratford, where the Clover Club, composed of literary, legal, financial, and business lights of the Quaker City, often dined and wined, and wined again."

In hopes of learning more about how this drink's fortune ran awry and its stature diminished, we tried to go to the supposed source - the Clover Club. Although we came across plenty of references to the club in obituaries of seemingly fine fellows from Boston and Philly, we never found a live specimen from the organization. In the 1995 Invisible Philadelphia: Communities through Volunteer Organizations, authors Jean Barth Toll and Mildred S. Gillam insist that the Clover Club, a dining club started in 1881, is still going strong. We have been able to piece together that the male-only club met just once a year to eat red meat while roasting local politicians.

Given the spottiness of the record, we're ready to make what we consider a logical leap: Perhaps the club had very little to do with the drink after all. When we consider the research of Jessy Randall, reference librarian at the Library Company of Philadelphia and an especially helpful teetotaler, we're particularly convinced. "At a certain point in every Clover Club dinner, 'after the soup, and with the fish,'" reported Jessy, "there would be several toasts drunk from the 'Loving Cup,' some kind of fancy silver cup belonging to the club." Jessy went on to quote from Mary R. Deacon's The Clover Club of Philadelphia of 1897: "The knowledge of the composition of the brew in the 'Loving Cup' is not common property. It is potent, it is strong. Those who have dipped more than once in its spring have mentioned its penetrating properties and its enervating powers. Double vision may follow two indulgences...." Jessy surmised that perhaps "the 'Clover Club' cocktail is related to this 'mysterious brew' (as they call it in a poem, later). But I have no proof.... We have a fair amount of information on the Clover Club itself, including menus for several of their fancy dinners held at the Bellevue Hotel here in Philadelphia, but I couldn't find a recipe for the Clover Club drink."

When we compound Jessy's own doubts with the fact that no one at the Bellevue Hotel seems to remember either the club or the cocktail, we begin to wonder why no members of the Clover Club have ever confirmed the story. We can only suspect that one evening, long ago, a few affiliates of the group offhandedly asked a bartender at the Bellevue to mix them up something new, and at the time, the Clover Club seemed a good enough name for a simple enough drink. Either that or the bartender decided that this perfectly prosaic drink - which rarely offends but is never noticed - didn't quite merit the flights of the picky or imaginative, and certainly not the mixer's name.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Display Ad 4 -- No Title
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 9, 1911. p. 3 (1 page):
  Ingredients for
Clover Club Cocktail
  With these indredients at hand you can make a snappy Clover Club Cocktail at any time.
Gordon Dry Gin...$1 bottle
Grenadine...$1 bottle
TO-KALON WINE CO.

Front Page 6 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 4, 1911. p. 1 (1 page):
   A Drink For Ladies--Clover Club Cocktail, but made with smooth, dry English _Picadilly Gin_--distinctively delicate.  At all clubs, hotels, cafes.--Adv.

-------------------------------------------------------------
PEGU

PEGU + COCKTAIL--664 Google hits, 17 Google Groups hits
("Pegu" is not in OED.)

   I couldn't find anything on this in ProQuest Historical Newspapers, Newspaperarchive, or the American Periodical Series.  Time to hit the drink books.


(GOOGLE)
http://hotwired.wired.com/cocktail/96/16/index4a.html
Pegu

George Orwell, a British colonial police officer in Burma during the '20s, observed that the past belongs to those who control the present. When it comes to the nearly forgotten Pegu cocktail, few words could ring truer.

Between the '20s and the '40s, no other exotic mix was as popular as this drink, which hails from the Pegu Club, located in a small town of nearly the same name. The bar was about 50 miles outside Rangoon, the capital of Burma - the country we refuse to call Myanmar, now better known for its infamous drug-producing region, the Golden Triangle.

According to Harry Craddock's Savoy Cocktail Club of 1930, people traveled the world round and asked everyone for this drink. But at about the time Orwell penned "Big Brother is watching you" and Burma gained its so-called independence, the Pegu vanished.

Fortunately for us, though, the Pegu is finally in resurgence, meaning that this inspiring gin cocktail has been sighted at bars that we frequent. With 1 1/2 ounces gin, 1/2 ounce Cointreau, 1/2 ounce lime juice, and a few dashes of Angostura bitters, all shaken with ice and strained into a chilled cocktail glass, the Pegu makes for a pungent drink that stimulates the senses and soothes the soul.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Food and Drink With a Merengue Beat
ALEXANDRA McGINLEY. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 18, 1999. p. CY4 (1 page):
   ...or a Pegu cocktail, named for a turn-of-the-century club in Burma (gin, Curacao, lime and bitters), with ginger crab cakes in roasted red pepper sauce.


---------------------------------------------------------------
SAM WARD

SAM WARD + COCKTAIL--413 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit

   Named after the popular politican of the period, this appears to have died with him.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
TOPICAL TALK.; Interesting Items About Well-Known Men and Women.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jan 18, 1889. p. 4 (1 page):
   Potempken soup does not appear to be more objectionable than "Sam Ward cocktail" or Sheridan punch.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  7 05:00:15 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 01:00:15 -0400
Subject: "Scam" trademarks (1953, 1963)
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.010015.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   For what they're worth.  There are 107 "scam" trademarks, but most are recent.


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark SCAM
Goods and Services (EXPIRED) IC 009. US 021. G & S: ANNUNCIATOR SYSTEM APPARATUS FOR INDICATING THE CONDITIONS OF PROCESS AND OTHER VARIABLES, INCLUDING ALARM LIGHTS, PLUG-IN RELAY UNITS, PRE-WIRED CHASSIS UNITS, CONTROL SWITCHES, AND CABINETS FOR HOUSING THE SAME; SELF-POLICING ANNUNICATOR SYSTEMS AND PARTS THEREOF; ANNUNCIATOR EQUIPMENT FOR INDICATING THE ON, OFF AND DEFECTIVE OPERATING CONDITIONS OF ELECTRIC MOTORS; ELECTRICAL ANNUNCIATOR INSTRUMENTS AND COMPONENT PARTS THEREOF, SUCH AS MULTIPLE RELAY PLUG-IN CONTAINERS. FIRST USE: 19530900. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19531000
(EXPIRED) IC 009. US 026. G & S: PANEL BOARDS WITH INTEGRATED DIAGRAMS AND/OR RECORDING AND/OR INDICATING INSTRUMENTS, SUCH AS THERMOMETERS, PRESSURE GAUGES, POTENTIOMETERS, AND THE LIKE, AND COMPONENT PARTS THEREOF; ELECTRIC AND/OR ELECTRONIC SUPERVISORY CONTROL SYSTEMS, SEQUENCE OR SELECTIVE PROCESS SCANNING SYSTEMS, MONITORING SYSTEMS FOR AUTOMATICALLY DETERMINING AND/OR RECORDING PHYSICAL DATA SUCH AS TEMPERATURES AND PRESENCE AND LOCATION OF ELECTRIC SHORT CIRCUITS; CO-ORDINATED CONTROL AND/OR RECORDING PANELS CONTAINING RECORDING ELEMENTS AND/OR GAUGES AND/OR CONTROL ELEMENTS; AUTOMATIC PROCESS MEASURING AND RECORDING EQUIPMENT; INSTRUMENTATION FOR PROCESS CONTROL EQUIPMENT IN CONVENTIONAL AND NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS, IN OIL REFINERIES, IN PAPER MILLS, IN METAL WORKING INDUSTRIES, IN FOOD AND CHEMICAL PROCESSING; DIGITAL COMPUTER AND DATA HANDLING SYSTEMS FOR INDUSTRIAL AND COMMERCIAL APPLICATIONS; AND HOSPITAL INFORMATION SYSTEMS. FIRST USE: 19630701. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19630701

Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 72256897
Filing Date October 21, 1966
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Registration Number 0861307
Registration Date December 3, 1968
Owner (REGISTRANT) SCAM INSTRUMENT CORPORATION, THE CORPORATION ILLINOIS 7401 N. HAMLIN AVE. SKOKIE ILLINOIS 60076
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Prior Registrations 0649622
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15.
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark SCAM
Goods and Services (EXPIRED) IC 004. US 015. G & S: ADDITIVE FOR AUTOMOTIVE MOTOR OIL AND AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION FLUID. FIRST USE: 19630501. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19630501
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 72188379
Filing Date March 10, 1964
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Registration Number 0777705
Registration Date September 29, 1964
Owner (REGISTRANT) MAC'S SUPER GLOSS CO., INC. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 6040 N. FIGUEROA ST. LOS ANGELES 12, CALIF.
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15.
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Jun  7 05:34:40 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 01:34:40 -0400
Subject: "Lai" Rice Balls,
 Ma Po Tofu or "Measled Woman" Bean Curd (Sichuan food)
In-Reply-To: <4540BE4A.1CFD5EA3.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.013440.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>...the excellent bean curd with spicy sauce ($7.25) is named after a woman
>with ''a spotty, pockmarked face.''
>(MY DISH TONIGHT--ed.)
>(...)
>Ma po tofu, bean curd with spicy minced pork and chili peppers ($8.25), is
>a classic Sichuan dish, invented, the guide explains, by an old woman with
>a face pockmarked by measles.

Folk etymology?

-- Doug Wilson


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Mon Jun  7 08:07:12 2004
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 01:07:12 -0700
Subject: "Lai" Rice Balls,
 Ma Po Tofu or "Measled Woman" Bean Curd (Sichuan food)
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.010712.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The postings on the blog at http://homepage2.nifty.com/osiete/s364.htm seem
to agree with a pockmarked old woman, though one poster says there are many
explanations.

At http://www.worldgooddesign.net/j/china/ousan/0003.html, a suggestion is
made that the tofu was originally made by an Old Ms. Ma.

HTH
Benjamin Barrett

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
Douglas G. Wilson
-------------------

>...the excellent bean curd with spicy sauce ($7.25) is named after a
>woman with ''a spotty, pockmarked face.'' (MY DISH TONIGHT--ed.)
>(...)
>Ma po tofu, bean curd with spicy minced pork and chili peppers ($8.25), is
>a classic Sichuan dish, invented, the guide explains, by an old woman with
>a face pockmarked by measles.

Folk etymology?

-- Doug Wilson


From preston at MSU.EDU  Mon Jun  7 11:53:43 2004
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 07:53:43 -0400
Subject: Dirty word fragments
In-Reply-To: <20040606.222535.-212749.15.dcamp911@juno.com>
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.075343.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Was there different bleeping in those regions which lack (or
vocalize) post-vocalic /l/?

dInIs

>In the past, broadcast channels and radio have bleeped out offensive
>words. I notice more recently, though, that such words are only clipped.
>For example, an NPR show today had an interviewee repeatedly used the
>word "assho[bleep]". I found it interesting that the "ass" part was
>acceptable, even "assho", but there seemed to be something offensive
>about the final consonant.
>
>Offensive words are increasingly allowed to play themselves out to the
>extent that they are perfectly recognizable with only a small piece
>clipped off.  Why can we bear assho[bleep] but would assumedly be greatly
>offended by asshole? Does this fool children who may be listening? Are
>our broadcasters following primitive taboo customs?
>
>Higher budget operations don't bleep, they dub. I watch Die Hard With a
>Vengeance on broadcast channels just for the joy of hearing Samuel L.
>Jackson call Bruce Willis a "dirty melon farmer."
>
>D
>
>I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun  7 12:30:47 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 08:30:47 EDT
Subject: Chinaman
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.083047.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Sun, 6 Jun 2004 14:39:40 EDT,   Bapopik at AOL.COM quotes

>  CHILE TODAY AND HOT TAMALE
>
>  (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>   Comic 4 -- No Title
>  Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 10, 1928.
p.
>  11 (1 page) :
>     _The Shanghai Jester_
>     "How do you like the climate?" we asked John Chinaman, as he handed him
>  our laundry check.
>     "Chile today and hot tamale," he replied, as he blew an opium ring over
>  the clothespin.

The OED2 has "John Chinaman" from 1826, with an ambiguous "John" from 1818.
Oddly, the first citation under "Chinaman" is 1854.  MWCD10 and MWCD11 both
have 1789 for "Chinaman".  I can do better than that.

Washington University facsimile reprint (Jackson I. Cope and Harold Whitmore
Jones, ed., St. Louis: Washington University Press, 1958) of Thomas Sprat
_History of the Royal Society_ London 1667. page 161.  (I do not have the exact
quote available at the moment).

        - James A. Landau


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun  7 14:32:00 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 09:32:00 -0500
Subject: Dirty word fragments
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.093200.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> From: Duane Campbell
> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 9:25 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> I watch Die
> Hard With a Vengeance on broadcast channels just for the joy
> of hearing Samuel L. Jackson call Bruce Willis a "dirty melon farmer."

Another good one is the DePalma version of "Scarface".  In the original,
Al Pacino says "This town is one big pussy waiting to get fucked" (in
a broad Cuban accent).  The edited version is a "big chicken waiting to
get plucked".


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun  7 15:32:47 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 08:32:47 -0700
Subject: more negative mischief
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.083247.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

susan stamberg, on today's Morning Edition (NPR), remarked that ronald
reagan "was not afraid to mince his words", thus piling on rather too
much negation.  "didn't mince his words" would have done.  "was not
afraid to be outspoken" or "to speak clearly" would have done.  but
this version has him fearlessly mincing his words.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun  7 16:29:52 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 12:29:52 -0400
Subject: more negative mischief
In-Reply-To: <EDD56D5C-B897-11D8-A933-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.122952.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>susan stamberg, on today's Morning Edition (NPR), remarked that ronald
>reagan "was not afraid to mince his words", thus piling on rather too
>much negation.

As W. B. Hodgson (1885)  [Errors in the Use of English; New York:
Appleton] p. 21 muttered gloomily a while back, "Piled-up negatives
prove easy stumbling-blocks."

>  "didn't mince his words" would have done.  "was not
>afraid to be outspoken" or "to speak clearly" would have done.  but
>this version has him fearlessly mincing his words.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

As Jerry would say (if I hadn't beaten him to it), a very nice syntactic blend.

Larry


From orinkh at CARR.ORG  Mon Jun  7 20:09:35 2004
From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 16:09:35 -0400
Subject: balsam pear (?)
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.160935.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would be grateful for any information on the appearance in English,
especially in American English, of the term ?balsam pear? to designate the
plant or fruit of Momordica charantia. Here?s what I?ve got now:

RHUD has a headword entry and def but no date.

OED has no entry; however, it gives ?balsam pear? at the definition of karela
(one of the modern culinary names in English of this fruit, from Hindi).

DARE has no entry, but gives ?balsam pear? at the definition of bitter melon
(one of its other modern culinary names, probably a translation from Chinese.
DARE?s only informants for the term were Hawaiian).

NID3, at balsam pear, says a ?balsam apple.

Some usage seems to lump balsam apple (Momordica balsamina) and balsam pear
(Momordica charantia), and this is reflected in various entries of both OED
and NID3, but not in other dictionaries I am aware of.

My sense is that three terms are now more or less current in culinary contexts
(karela, bitter melon, and bitter gourd) for this fruit, but I have been
unable to determine where and when balsam pear had any currency in English. Is
it perhaps of Caribbean origin, where (as NID3 notes) this vine is
naturalized? I could find no cites for ?balsam pear? on the Making of America
sites, and the only cites there for Momordica are for a species that has since
been reclassified (the squirting cucumber, which is now Ecballium elaterium).

One more note, if anyone is still reading: the RH Shumway seed catalog,
clearly hedging its bets, sells seeds for what it calls the ?balsam apple,?
which it identifies only as ?Momordica.? Their drawing, however, is clearly of
Momordica charantia, *not* M. balsamina. Evergreen Seeds (an Asian vegetable
seed catalog) gives, for Momordica charantia, ?bitter melon,? ?bitter gourd,?
and ?bitter cucumber.

Many thanks, and off-list replies are OK if this gets any more obscure than it
already is.

Orin Hargraves


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Jun  7 21:16:48 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:16:48 -0400
Subject: kyarn
In-Reply-To: <2104A7D6-B769-11D8-AF8F-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.JUN.2004.171648.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This reminds me of the opening scene in the old "Story of English" video on
Black English.  Some whites are talking about their childhood memories of a
term they borrowed from servants on the plantation/estate (whatever they
call it these days).  I transcribed it as "yedi" without knowing what it
meant, until someone said it was "hear" or "hear ye" or something like
that.  Then I realized it involved palatalization plus flapping.  A better
dialect spelling might therefore be "hyear" plus whatever affix was meant
(my memory is weak on the exact sound).  Is this initial palatalizing
common in Southern English in general? or only in AAVE, and there only in
older speakers?  I'm not familiar with it in Appalachian English, though
apparently it's in Ozark English.

At 11:25 PM 6/5/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>On Jun 5, 2004, at 8:54 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
>>Subject:      kyarn
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>>In my childhood in
>>>East Texas, a word that sounded like "kyahn" was used by my parents
>>>and
>>>grandparents with a meaning something like "an otherwise-unidentified
>>>substance with a disgusting odor," since it occurred only in sentences
>>>like "That smells/stinks like/as bad as kyahn." I've never heard
>>>"kyahn" used by *anyone* outside of my immediate family. Nevertheless,
>>>about 35 years later, while thumbing through a book on the vocabulary
>>>of *Ozark* English, what before my wondering eyes should appear but
>>>the
>>>citation, "kyahn. n. carrion." It blew my mind, to say the least.
>>>Unfortunately, I'm unable to recall the title or the author of the
>>>lexicon.
>>
>>My wife's maternal grandmother is in her 80's, and grew up/lives in
>>south Georgia (Douglas, Nicholls).  My wife picked up from her side
>>of the family "kyarn", meaning carrion (note the "r").  The best
>>description
>>is kyarn is what a dog will roll in just before it
>>comes inside and rubs against you.  The stinkier, the better.
>
>Now that you've brought it to my attention, it could well have been the
>"kyarn" spelling that I saw in the lexicon. My "knowledge" of English
>of the Ozark/Appalachian type has been gained primarily from comic
>strips like "Li'l Abner" and "[Barney Google and] Snuffy Smith," and
>from TV shows like Jerry Springer. Interestingly, while in the Army, I
>had a (white) Appalachian-speaking buddy for whom "yon" as an adjective
>was a living part of his vocabulary. He could say things like, "Let's
>go have a beer in yon bar." This was in 1961. Down home in East Texas,
>we blacks used "yon" only adverbially in exclamations like "Yon he go!"
>Otherwise, we used "yonder" and even then still only adverbially: "He
>use to live (over) yonder; look (over) yonder!; they went (over)
>yonder/went yonder (way)."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  9 02:46:59 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 22:46:59 EDT
Subject: "Evil Empire" (June 8, 1982; March 8, 1983)
Message-ID: <TUE.8.JUN.2004.224659.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ADS-L appears to be down for the day, but I'll try this, anyway.
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------  
EVIL EMPIRE--222,000 Google hits, 83,600 Google Groups hits
  
(GOOGLE)
The Reagan Home Page:Evil Empire Speech... Advertisers may or may not share 
political views with Townhall.com. '); '. The Evil Empire. President Reagan's 
Speech to the House of Commons, June 8, 1982. ... 
www.townhall.com/hall_of_fame/ reagan/speech/empire.html - 50k - Cached - 
Similar pages   
  
Modern History Sourcebook: Ronald Reagan: The Evil EmpireBack to Modern 
History SourceBook. Modern History Sourcebook: Ronald Reagan: Evil Empire Speech, 
June 8, 1982. President Reagan: Speech ... 
www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1982reagan1.html - Similar pages    
  
Ronald Reagan... Annual Convention Of The National Association of ...... 
Orlando, Florida. March 8, 1983. This is the "evil empire" speech that was so 
often quoted as defining my attitude toward the Soviets. ... 
www.ronaldreagan.com/sp_6.html - 37k - Cached - Similar pages   


(GOOGLE)
http://www.tysknews.com/Articles/empire.htm
Seventeen Years Ago This Week, Ronald Reagan Called the Soviet Union the 
Focus of Evil in the Modern World. The 'Evil Empire' Speech Disturbed the 
Political Universe, but the Critical Words Almost Went Unsaid. 
 
President Reagan's Evil Empire Speech, often credited with hastening the end 
of Soviet totalitarianism, almost didn't happen. According to presidential 
papers obtained by The Morning Call, Reagan was thwarted on at least one earlier 
occasion from using the same blunt, anti-communist phrases he spoke from the 
bully pulpit 17 years ago this week. And former Reagan aides now say it was 
their furtive effort in the winter of 1983 that slipped the boldest of words past 
a timid bureaucracy. With clever calculation, the Evil Empire Speech eluded 
U.S. censors to score a direct hit on the Soviet Union. "It was the stealth 
speech," said one Reagan aide. In the spring of 1982, the president felt the 
reins on his rhetoric. The first draft of his address to the British Parliament 
labeled the Soviet Union the world's "focus of evil." He liked the text. But 
Parliament never heard those words. U.S. diplomats and cautious Reagan advisers 
sanitized the text of the speech, removing its harshest terms, according to 
documents from the Ronald Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, Calif. But 
nine months later, Reagan spoke in Orlando, Fla., and delivered many of the 
passages deleted from the London address. His Orlando speech is known as the 
Evil Empire Speech. The speech alarmed moderates of the West, delighted millions 
living under Soviet oppression and set off a global chain reaction that many 
believe led inexorably to the fall of the Berlin Wall and to freedom for most 
of Eastern Europe. The Reagan Library papers provide fascinating insights into 
the drafting of what may have been the most important presidential statement 
of the Cold War. They also reveal that, despite the unremitting influences on 
him, the president himself decided what he would say. "Letus be aware that 
while they preach the supremacy of the state, declare its omnipotence over 
individual man, predict its eventual domination of all peoples of the Earth, they are 
the focus of evil in the modern world," Reagan told the National Association 
of Evangelicals on March 8, 1983. An audience of 1,200 was first to hear the 
words "focus of evil" in the Citrus Crown Ballroom at the Sheraton Twin Towers 
Hotel in Orlando. And other phrases slashed from the Parliament speech were 
resurrected in the Evil Empire Speech. 
> ? The 1982 first draft said, "Those cliches of conquest we have heard so 
> often from the East are ... part of a sad, bizarre, dreadfully evil episode in 
> history, but an episode that is dying, a chapter whose last pages even now 
> are being written." The sentence was censored in London, but in Orlando Reagan 
> said, "I believe that Communism is another sad, bizarre chapter in human 
> history whose last pages even now are being written." ? The London first draft 
> included the words of the late British novelist C.S. Lewis: "The greatest evil 
> is not in those sordid dens of crime that Dickens loved to paint. ... It is 
> conceived and ordered ... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, 
> by quiet men." The words were held until Orlando. 
> (...)
    
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)(1086 hits for "evil empire")
    1.  Tarzan
EDGAR RICE BURROUGHS. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, 
Calif.: Oct 4, 1936. p. 4A (1 page) 
(Cartoon panels--ed.)
SADLY THE JUNGLE LORD FORESAW THE GROWTH OF A VAST AND EVIL EMPIRE WHICH 
SOMEDAY MIGHT THREATEN HIS OWN DOMAIN.
     
    2.  MR. CHURCHILL'S PLEA
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 7, 1946. p. 18 (1 
page):
   Mr. Churchill is so honestly an Englishman and so honestly a conservative 
imperialist that the incongruity of the remedy he suggests for the situation 
which he helped bring about quite obviously escapes him.  He proposes an 
alliance, half slave and half free, with the British empire representing slavery.  
He comes really as a suppliant, begging assistance for that old and evil empire 
and frankly expecting to get it on his own terms. 
     
    3.  AMERICA IN BAD COMPANY
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 20, 1946. p. 20 (1 
page) :
   In the peace conference and in the United Nations our government is in 
intimate association with the great and evil empires.  It is not our 
responsibility or duty to reform them but it is our privilege to dissociate ourselves fro 
mtheir enslavements and oppressions. 
     
    4.  Other 48 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 4, 1949. p. 
D6 (1 page)   
(BAD HITS!  "Force of Evil" and the Empire Theatre--ed.)
     
    5.  Other 6 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep 5, 1949. p. 
A2 (1 page)   
     
    6.  Mesquite, Tex., vs. 'Evil Empire'
By PETER APPLEBOMESpecial to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current 
file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 23, 1982. p. 7 (1 page) 
(Video games--ed.)  
     
    7.  Excerpts From President's Speech to National Association of 
Evangelicals
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 9, 1983. p. A18 (1 
page) 
      
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM (370 hits for "evil empire")
Tri City Herald - 1/7/1968  
...HANGS THE FATE OF BALDA HAN AND HIS EVIL EMPIRE. _ NEXT WEEKTo Arms..
Pasco, Washington Sunday, January 07, 1968  567 k       
    
Nevada State Journal - 1/7/1968     
...HAM69 1MB RATE OP BAiPA HAM ANP HIS EVIL EMPIRE. MCXT J. PIERPONT 
6R066INS..
Reno, Nevada Sunday, January 07, 1968  557 k    
        
Bradford Era - 3/9/1951     
...bullet for bullet and smashed their EVIL EMPIRE ZERO HOSTEL' TED de 
CORSlA..
Bradford, Pennsylvania Friday, March 09, 1951  605 k    
    
Bismarck Tribune - 6/16/1954    
...hunt that finally destroyed their EVIL EMPIRE 'KIUERS-FOR-HIRE'-ANDTHE 
MWI..
Bismarck, North Dakota   Wednesday, June 16, 1954  539 k    
     
Progress - 5/14/1951    
...AFTER CLUE THAT FINALLY SMASHED THEIR EVIL EMPIRE with ZERO MOSTEL 
EVERETT..
Clearfield, Pennsylvania Monday, May 14, 1951  681 k    
    
Chronicle Telegram - 9/27/1979  
...We trained for 30 years to fight the 'EVIL EMPIRE.' We trained to break 
things..
Elyria, Ohio Thursday, September 27, 1979  518 k        
     
Chronicle Telegram - 9/12/1979  
...pierce what comes across as a Tobacco EVIL EMPIRE, the tone is as sinister 
as..
Elyria, Ohio Wednesday, September 12, 1979  500 k       
        
Bismarck Tribune - 6/15/1954    
...hunt that finally destroyed their EVIL EMPIRE 'KIUERS-FOH-HIRE'-ANDTHE 
MAN..
Bismarck, North Dakota   Tuesday, June 15, 1954  638 k      
    
Wellsboro Agitator - 10/13/1948     
...MILLAND AMERICAN BEYOND SAINTED "SO EVIL EMPIRE..
Wellsboro, Pennsylvania Wednesday, October 13, 1948  717 k      
    
Lethbridge Herald - 9/5/1957    
...is deployed at last, and as the EVIL EMPIRE of Hitlerism is now 
visibly.....founder and editor for V) years of the EMPIRE Renew, died in a Wimbledon..
Lethbridge, Alberta Thursday, September 05, 1957  940 k 
      
Hampton Chronicle - 6/7/1951    
...hunt that finally destroyed their EVIL EMPIRE. Arrange Details Of The 
July..
Hampton, Iowa Thursday, June 07, 1951  679 k    


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  9 05:24:35 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 01:24:35 EDT
Subject: "Morning in America" (1984); "Teflon" President (1983)
Message-ID: <WED.9.JUN.2004.012435.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Here are a few more phrases from the Ronald Reagan era.
   I worked 8:30 a.m. to 8 p.m. yesterday.  I was too pooped to post.  Today
was only 8:30 a.m.-7 p.m.  All a waste.
   Going home in the subway from the Bronx to Manhattan, I heard the warning
to beware of suspicious packages--TWICE on the same trip.  OK, so they expect
us to die in the subway--so how come cell phones still don't work there?  How
are you supposed to dial 911?  A stupid question, perhaps, but what's the
answer, Mr. Mayor?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MORNING IN AMERICA

MORNING IN AMERICA + REAGAN--4,520 Google hits, 1,130 Google Groups hits

   The 1984 re-election theme.  This week called "mourning in America."


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Display Ad 6 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Oct 27, 1922. p. 6 (1 page)


    2.  REBECCA WEST DISCUSSES AMERICANS AND MARRIAGE
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 4, 1923. p. X12 (1
page)

    3.  Display Ad 17 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 28, 1925. p. 19 (1
page)

    4.  WHAT GOES ON?
Chapin Hall. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep
15, 1938. p. 2 (1 page)

    5.  A Lee for Villain; MORNING IN AMERICA. By Willard Wiener. Decorated
by William Sharp. 303 pp. New York: Farrar & Rinehart. $2.50.
WILLIAM DU BOIS.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 1,
1942. p. BR18 (2 pages)

    6.  BOOKS REVIEWED IN THIS ISSUE
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 1, 1942. p. BR39 (1
page)

    7.  Latest Books Received; Latest Books Received Latest Books Received
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 1, 1942. p. BR35 (3
pages)

    8.  Dire Results of Dealing With Nazis Vividly Told
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 6, 1942. p.
E7 (1 page)

    9.  Television This Week; OF SPECIAL INTEREST
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 23, 1978. p. D25 (2
pages)
    10. MYSTERIES; Mysteries
By JEAN M. WHITE. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.:
Jul 18, 1982. p. BW6 (2 pages)

    11. A Daunting Victory
By Anthony Lewis. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 7,
1984. p. A31 (1 page) :
   Ronald Reagan's amazing political appeal turns in large part on his
projection of optimism, I think: the sense that he feels good and that we should.
His new campaign television ads do it wonderfully: "It's morning in America," a
voice says, and there are idealized scenes of a happy America that Mr. Reagan
has restored.

    12. Don't Bet That He'll Pick a Woman
Michael Barone. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.:
Jul 1, 1984. p. C8 (1 page)

    13. Reagan Ad Aces; The Tuesday Team, Making America Feel Good About
Itself ! ,,7hesday,' 7&am
By Elisabeth Bumiller Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post
(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Oct 18, 1984. p. D1 (2 pages)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"TEFLON" PRESIDENT

TEFLON + REAGAN--6,980 Google hits, 4,990 Google Groups hits

   A few Democrats have said recently that Ronald Reagan was such a wonderful
person, that he stopped the partisan bickering.  Kids, there was partisan
bickering then, too.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
New Goal for NOW: The Vice Presidency
By Bill Peterson Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post
(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Oct 2, 1983. p. A13 (1 page) :
   In the most widely applauded speech of the day, Schroeder accused Reagan
of trying to act like a "Teflon-coated" president by claiming he is simply
misunderstood by women.

Many Who See Failure in His Policies Don't Blame Their Affable President
By STEVEN V. ROBERTS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar
2, 1984. p. A14 (1 page) :
   This has caused great frustration among Democratic politicians, summed up
by Representative Patricia Schroeder's characterization of Mr. Reagan as the
"Teflon-coated President."  Blame, the Colorado Congresswoman complains, never
seems to stick.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Frederick Post - 8/25/1983
...President REAGAN had established "a TEFLON-coated presidency. He sees to
it.....the wagman file' by robert j. wagman REAGAN's 'gender gap' irks
feminists..
Frederick, Maryland Thursday, August 25, 1983  552 k
Pg. B-3, col. 6:  An unabashedly partisan suggestion by Rep. Patricia Shroder
(sic), D-Colo., that President Reagan had established "a Teflon-coated
presidency.  He sees to it that nothing sticks to him.  He is responsible for
nothing--civil rights, Central America, the Middle East, the economy, the
environment--he is just the master of ceremonies at someone else's dinner."

Frederick Post - 5/4/1984
...leader." Thank God it is REAGAN, the TEFLON man, the non-stick president.
But.....He is best summed up as the "TEFLON the ultimate non-stick invention..
Frederick, Maryland Friday, May 04, 1984  544 k

Gettysburg Times - 6/30/1984
...D-Colo. She has called REAGAN a "TEFLON president." claiming he can
make.....use in the campaign against President REAGAN. But leaders seemed baffled..
Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Saturday, June 30, 1984  536 k

Frederick Post - 8/23/1984
...succeed. That's the secret of Ronald REAGAN." Lyn Nofziger, a longtime
REAGAN.....challengers who call his the TEFLON presidency because, they
complain..
Frederick, Maryland Thursday, August 23, 1984  591 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun  9 06:56:38 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 02:56:38 EDT
Subject: Mixtamalization, Nixtamalization; Buen Provecho! (1846)
Message-ID: <WED.9.JUN.2004.025638.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MIXTAMALIZATION, NIXTAMALIZATION
  
MIXTAMALIZATION--6 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
NIXTAMALIZATION--441 Google hits, 20 Google Groups hits
    
   Neither term is in the revised OED, of course.  It's mentioned in a little 
group rec.food.historic.
   From today's newspaper.
 
  
(NEW YORK TIMES, 9 June 2004)
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/09/dining/09HOBO.html
Sinatra's Hometown Has a New Latin Flavor
By R. W. APPLE Jr.

Published: June 9, 2004
    HOBOKEN, N.J.
FOR many generations, the women in Maricel Presilla's family taught school. 
She herself is a scholar with a Ph.D. in medieval Spanish history who once 
taught at Rutgers. So it is no surprise that the dishes she serves at her two 
restaurants here are based on decades of delving into Latin American culinary 
anthropology, or that she can cogently explain her food to those who come 
under-informed to her tables.

"You have to understand the role of mixtamalization," she told me one 
lunchtime at Zafra, the less formal of her places, when I asked what set Mexican 
tamales apart from those of Cuba, where she grew up. "The Mexicans take off the 
tough outer skin of the corn kernels by soaking them in lime water before 
grinding them into flour. That gives their tamales an earthy taste. We don't 
mixtamalize. So our tamales, made with fresh corn, have a much sweeter flavor."
  
I had just begun to grasp that polysyllabic proposition when my tamales 
arrived, and I dived in.  
(...)
(Johnny Apple explains the unfamiliar term no further--ed.) 
  
  
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: What is American cookery?
Yes, nixtamalization is Sophie Coe's term for using alkaline solutions
to remove hulls from corn, making hominy (in the modern sense). ... 
rec.food.historic - Sep 24, 2001 by Mark Zanger - View Thread (47 articles)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------
BUEN PROVECHO!
  
BUEN PROVECHO--32,900 Google hits, 3,960 Google Groups hits
BUEN PROVECHO--5,000 Google "English language" hits
    
   One of the food terms, like 'bon appetit," that just isn't translated.   I 
found a nice citation in the book below.
  
  
TRANSCARRIBEAN:
A TRAVEL BOOK OF GUATEMALA, EL SALVADOR, BRITISH HONDURAS
by Louis J. Halle, Jr.
New York: Longmans, Green and Co.
1936
 
Pg. 186:  The other occupants of the hotel, a native white with spectacles 
and two young khaki officers in gold braid (everty hotel I stopped at had two 
young officers in gold braid, bent on a spree) finished their dinners before us, 
gave us "buen provecho!" each in turn, and left.  That is one of the pleasant 
and homely customs of the cfountry: in all the hotels, as you get up from 
table and before leaving the room, you call _buen provecho!_ (roughly: May your 
meal benefit you!) to the assembled diners, in a loud voice that all may hear.
  
       
(OED)
PROSIT, _int._
1846 R. FORD Gatherings from Spain xv. 182 ?Muchas gracias, buen provecho le 
haga ? usted?, ?Many thanksmuch good may it do your grace?, an answer which 
is analogous to the prosit of Italian peasants after eating or sneezing.
 
   
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
Stevens Point Journal - 2/21/1891   
...hostess as invariably replied; "Buen PROVECHO" it do you much The missions 
in..
Stevens Point, Wisconsin Saturday, February 21, 1891  1146 k    
    
Daily Gleaner - 7/5/1959    
...es lo qua ei espera llevar a cabo en PROVECHO de Ja Argentina. African he 
had..
Kingston, Kingston Sunday, July 05, 1959  373 k     
    
Pottstown Mercury - 1/22/1953   
...had been set up the past year arid PROVECHO be popular and fair to 
everyone..
Pottstown, Pennsylvania Thursday, January 22, 1953  736 k       
    
Daily Gleaner - 8/2/1959    
...al Canal de Panama que resulte en PROVECHO del pais. Tatt favorables..
Kingston, Kingston Sunday, August 02, 1959  352 k       
    
Zanesville Signal - 5/17/1934   
...given recently at La Fonda Buen PROVECHO exclusive hostelry in the Old..
Zanesville, Ohio Thursday, May 17, 1934  1079 k     
    
Chronicle Telegram - 8/27/1956  
...get a hotel. Adios. muchacho, and bien PROVECHO. it you can find it." 
found it..
Elyria, Ohio Monday, August 27, 1956  786 k     
    
Blue Island Sun Standard - 3/11/1976    
...y que estan usando su position para PROVECHO personal. Dijo Que eso esta 
mal..
Blue Island, Illinois Thursday, March 11, 1976  400 k       
  
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  THE COURTESY OF SPAIN.; As Exhibited in a Spanish Boarding House in 
New York. 
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 18, 1909. p. E1 (1 
page)"
   To his own table mates there is a polite "buen provecho;" to which each 
person responds either "gracias" or "igualmente, senor." 
      
    2.  How to Help Itchin' Kitten
The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Mar 14, 
1956. p. 43 (1 page) :
   ..."Buen Provecho," British War Charities in Caeacas, Venezuela, The 
American Book Shop, Edificio Veroes, Caracas, Venezuela.
      
    3.  Embassies Cook Up New Glamour Dishes
By Dorothy McCardle. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). 
Washington, D.C.: Aug 26, 1956. p. F12 (1 page):
   THE Venezualan Embassy here has a big fat cookbook in its kitchens called 
"Buen Provecho" or "good eating" which uses "masa" in many different ways.
        
    4.  Spanish Cuisine Comes Into Its Own
Mrs. L.I.M.. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, 
D.C.: Oct 25, 1957. p. C20 (1 page):
   "This recipe was taken from a cookbook called Buen Provecho (Good 
Appetite) which I purchased in Caracas, Venezuela, while living there a few years 
ago." 


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Jun 10 00:53:27 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 20:53:27 -0400
Subject: balsam pear (?)
In-Reply-To: <40B9BA86@mail.carr.org>
Message-ID: <WED.9.JUN.2004.205327.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I would be grateful for any information on the appearance in English,
>especially in American English, of the term "balsam pear" to designate the
>plant or fruit of Momordica charantia. Here's what I've got now:
>
>RHUD has a headword entry and def but no date.
>
>OED has no entry; however, it gives "balsam pear" at the definition of karela
>(one of the modern culinary names in English of this fruit, from Hindi).
>
>DARE has no entry, but gives "balsam pear" at the definition of bitter melon
>(one of its other modern culinary names, probably a translation from Chinese.
>DARE's only informants for the term were Hawaiian).
>
>NID3, at balsam pear, says a "balsam apple.

Century Dictionary (1889) doesn't show this "balsam-pear"; the supplement
(1909) shows it however.

Newpaperarchive gives one item where "balsam-pear" appears with its species
name as above ... this is from Canada in 1941. There are other instances of
"balsam pear" (a few) but without this (or without any) species name. A
couple of items from 1894 use "lakwa", which I suppose is maybe a Chinese word.

Google provides multiple sites showing "balsam pear" as one of a group of
names for the bitter melon currently.

-- Doug Wilson


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Jun 10 01:51:11 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 20:51:11 -0500
Subject: Origin of "joe" (coffee)--"Old Black Joe" (coffee without cream)
 in 1911 cartoon
Message-ID: <WED.9.JUN.2004.205111.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

      HDAS says tentatively about "joe" (coffee; esp. in Navy):
"perhaps as suggested in 1980 quote; the Foster song was extremely
popular." ---1980: Mack & Connell, _Naval Trads._ (5th edition) 260:
'Some sailors call coffee "joe," which some say is a derivative of
[Stephen] Foster's song, "Old Black Joe."'

      Barry Popik sent me a 1911 'Osgar und Adolf' cartoon in
connection with 'hot dog,' and one character speaks of 'Old Black
Joe' meaning coffee without cream. [It fits into the context of
hashhouse lingo,  and Jack Smiley mentions 'joe' (coffee) in his 1941
book _Hash house Lingo_.]

      The 1911 information is:
'Osgar und Adolf' cartoon, by Condo; title: 'Every Little Melody Has
Meaning of It's [apostrophe: sic] Own'; _Tacoma Times_; , Feb. 27,
1911, p.4. (Misspellings below: sic) ---
First frame, Osgar to Adolf: 'Diss moosik box shoult make you der
orders plain, Adolf.  For instance ven id plays "Old Black Joe" id
means coffee mitoudt cream. "Bring me a rose" means Limberger
cheece--und "Come under my plaidie" means oatmeal porridge.'
        Adolf replies: 'So?'
Second frame, music box sings out: 'Hush-a-bye, baby, don't you cry'
and 'Daddy buy me a bow-wow'
        Adolf says: "I see, "Don'd you cry" means peeled onions and
"bow wow" means sissage.'
[Four more frames follow.]

----Gerald Cohen


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Jun 10 04:32:40 2004
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2004 21:32:40 -0700
Subject: "Morning in America" (1984); "Teflon" President (1983)
Message-ID: <WED.9.JUN.2004.213240.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a 1995 article, Elliot King and Michael Schudson say that Reagan
was first described as "the Great Communicator" during the first 6
months of his first term. I found a Russell Baker piece on political
cliches in the NY Times from January 27, 1976 in which "Ronald Reagan
is 'a great communicator'" is listed as a bit of conventional
political wisdom. I haven't found anything earlier than that in the
Times, the WSJ, or newspaperarchive.com, but given the Baker context
the phrase must have been in use before then. Can anyone help with
this? Also, it would be interesting to know when the phrase was first
used with the definite article (which changed the sense of 'great',
of course) -- was this before the 1980 election?

Geoff Nunberg


>    Here are a few more phrases from the Ronald Reagan era.
>    I worked 8:30 a.m. to 8 p.m. yesterday.  I was too pooped to post.  Today
>was only 8:30 a.m.-7 p.m.  All a waste.
>    Going home in the subway from the Bronx to Manhattan, I heard the warning
>to beware of suspicious packages--TWICE on the same trip.  OK, so they expect
>us to die in the subway--so how come cell phones still don't work there?  How
>are you supposed to dial 911?  A stupid question, perhaps, but what's the
>answer, Mr. Mayor?
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>---------------------------------------------
>MORNING IN AMERICA
>
>MORNING IN AMERICA + REAGAN--4,520 Google hits, 1,130 Google Groups hits
>
>    The 1984 re-election theme.  This week called "mourning in America."
>
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>     1.  Display Ad 6 -- No Title
>Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Oct 27, 1922. p. 6 (1 page)
>
>
>     2.  REBECCA WEST DISCUSSES AMERICANS AND MARRIAGE
>New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 4, 1923. p. X12 (1
>page)
>
>     3.  Display Ad 17 -- No Title
>Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 28, 1925. p. 19 (1
>page)
>
>     4.  WHAT GOES ON?
>Chapin Hall. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Sep
>15, 1938. p. 2 (1 page)
>
>     5.  A Lee for Villain; MORNING IN AMERICA. By Willard Wiener. Decorated
>by William Sharp. 303 pp. New York: Farrar & Rinehart. $2.50.
>WILLIAM DU BOIS.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 1,
>1942. p. BR18 (2 pages)
>
>     6.  BOOKS REVIEWED IN THIS ISSUE
>New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 1, 1942. p. BR39 (1
>page)
>
>     7.  Latest Books Received; Latest Books Received Latest Books Received
>New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 1, 1942. p. BR35 (3
>pages)
>
>     8.  Dire Results of Dealing With Nazis Vividly Told
>Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 6, 1942. p.
>E7 (1 page)
>
>     9.  Television This Week; OF SPECIAL INTEREST
>New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 23, 1978. p. D25 (2
>pages)
>     10. MYSTERIES; Mysteries
>By JEAN M. WHITE. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.:
>Jul 18, 1982. p. BW6 (2 pages)
>
>     11. A Daunting Victory
>By Anthony Lewis. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 7,
>1984. p. A31 (1 page) :
>    Ronald Reagan's amazing political appeal turns in large part on his
>projection of optimism, I think: the sense that he feels good and
>that we should.
>His new campaign television ads do it wonderfully: "It's morning in
>America," a
>voice says, and there are idealized scenes of a happy America that Mr. Reagan
>has restored.
>
>     12. Don't Bet That He'll Pick a Woman
>Michael Barone. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.:
>Jul 1, 1984. p. C8 (1 page)
>
>     13. Reagan Ad Aces; The Tuesday Team, Making America Feel Good About
>Itself ! ,,7hesday,' 7&am
>By Elisabeth Bumiller Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post
>(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Oct 18, 1984. p. D1 (2 pages)
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>---------------------------------------------
>"TEFLON" PRESIDENT
>
>TEFLON + REAGAN--6,980 Google hits, 4,990 Google Groups hits
>
>    A few Democrats have said recently that Ronald Reagan was such a wonderful
>person, that he stopped the partisan bickering.  Kids, there was partisan
>bickering then, too.
>
>
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>New Goal for NOW: The Vice Presidency
>By Bill Peterson Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post
>(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Oct 2, 1983. p. A13 (1 page) :
>    In the most widely applauded speech of the day, Schroeder accused Reagan
>of trying to act like a "Teflon-coated" president by claiming he is simply
>misunderstood by women.
>
>Many Who See Failure in His Policies Don't Blame Their Affable President
>By STEVEN V. ROBERTS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar
>2, 1984. p. A14 (1 page) :
>    This has caused great frustration among Democratic politicians, summed up
>by Representative Patricia Schroeder's characterization of Mr. Reagan as the
>"Teflon-coated President."  Blame, the Colorado Congresswoman complains, never
>seems to stick.
>
>
>(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
>Frederick Post - 8/25/1983
>...President REAGAN had established "a TEFLON-coated presidency. He sees to
>it.....the wagman file' by robert j. wagman REAGAN's 'gender gap' irks
>feminists..
>Frederick, Maryland Thursday, August 25, 1983  552 k
>Pg. B-3, col. 6:  An unabashedly partisan suggestion by Rep. Patricia Shroder
>(sic), D-Colo., that President Reagan had established "a Teflon-coated
>presidency.  He sees to it that nothing sticks to him.  He is responsible for
>nothing--civil rights, Central America, the Middle East, the economy, the
>environment--he is just the master of ceremonies at someone else's dinner."
>
>Frederick Post - 5/4/1984
>...leader." Thank God it is REAGAN, the TEFLON man, the non-stick president.
>But.....He is best summed up as the "TEFLON the ultimate non-stick invention..
>Frederick, Maryland Friday, May 04, 1984  544 k
>
>Gettysburg Times - 6/30/1984
>...D-Colo. She has called REAGAN a "TEFLON president." claiming he can
>make.....use in the campaign against President REAGAN. But leaders
>seemed baffled..
>Gettysburg, Pennsylvania Saturday, June 30, 1984  536 k
>
>Frederick Post - 8/23/1984
>...succeed. That's the secret of Ronald REAGAN." Lyn Nofziger, a longtime
>REAGAN.....challengers who call his the TEFLON presidency because, they
>complain..
>Frederick, Maryland Thursday, August 23, 1984  591 k


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 10 07:16:48 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 03:16:48 EDT
Subject: Jasbo (1914); Tinker-to-Evers-to-Chance (1905,
 1910); Price-Fixed (Prix Fixe)
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.031648.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

JASBO

   Fred Shapiro had posted this from the CHICAGO TRIBUNE:

1915 _Chicago Daily Tribune_ 11 July E8 (ProQuest)  Blues Is Jazz and Jazz


   I checked for "Jasbo," and that's earlier in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
In the Frame of Public Favor
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Mar 22, 1914. p. B11 (1
page) :
   Dave Thompson recently reappointed cast director at the Thanhouser plant
in New Rochelle, has engaged the services of a valet, the same being a huge
Ethiopian nicknamed "Jasbo."  When Dave is not playing in pictures "Jasbo" act as
a personal bodyguard.  The other day "Jasbo" was seated beside Dave's desk
when an actress came in looking for work in the pictures.  "Jasbo" got up to
give the girl his seat.  She turned to him and said, "Don't deprive yourself" and
"Jasbo" replied, "That's all right, miss; no depravity."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TINKER-TO-EVERS-TO-CHANCE

   This is the Chicago Cubs' Hall of Fame "double play" combination, made
famous by the Franklin Pierce Adams poem, "Baseball's Sad Lexicon," in the July
1910 NEW YORK MAIL.
   I thought I'd check the CHICAGO TRIBUNE for the earliest combo.  See the
entry on page 471 of the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  ERRORS HELPED CHICAGO.; Cincinnati Did Most of the Hitting, but
Failed at Critical Point.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 21, 1905. p. 8 (1
page)

    2.  GIANTS FAIL TO SCORE; League Leaders Shut Out by the Chicago Club.
DOUBLE PLAYS TURN TRICK Johnny Evers Records the Only Run on His Single, a
Sacrifice, and a Hit by Casey -- Pittsburg Also Receives a Coat of Whitewash from
the Philadelphias. Scores of Other Games of the Day.
The Washington Post. Sep 24, 1905. p. S1 (1 page)

    3.  Naps Win in Eighth.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 15, 1906. p. 9 (1
page)

    4.  Fifteen Innings at Chicago.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 19, 1906. p. 9 (1
page)

    5.  GIANTS BEAT PIRATES.; Seymour's Home Run Wins Game in Eleventh Inni
ng.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 12, 1906. p. SP1 (1
page)

    6.  Chicago Wins an Eighteen-inning Game.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 3, 1906. p. 8 (1 page)


    7.  CHICAGO CUBS AGAIN WIN.; Take Philadelphia Into Camp by Hard Hitting
in Last Inning.
Special to The Washington Post.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington,
D.C.: Aug 14, 1907. p. 8 (1 page)

    8.  NAPS BUNCH BINGLES.; Get Three in One Inning and Beat Detroit by
Score of 3 to 0.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep 12, 1907. p. 8 (1
page)

    9.  CUBS WIN LAST GAME.; Chicago Takes Season's Final Struggle on Home
Grounds.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 3, 1907. p. 9 (1 page)


    10. REDS AGAIN SHUT OUT.; Philadelphia, 6; Cincinnati, 0 -- Sparks Holds
Opponents to Two Hits.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 2, 1908. p. S3 (1
page)
    11. Other 3 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 28, 1908. p. 6 (1 page)


    12. CUBS POUND BALL HARD.; Brown Succeeds Higginbotham and Holds
Cardinals Safe to Finish.
Chicago, Sept. 11.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Sep
12, 1909. p. S2 (1 page)

    13. BROWN SAVES CHICAGO.; Retires St. Louis in Ninth, With Two on Sacks
and None Out.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 29, 1910. p. 8 (1
page)

    14. <A HREF="http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=13REDS TAKE CLOSE GAME.; Beat Brooklyn in Well Played Contest by Score
of 3 to 2.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 17, 1910. p. 9 (1
page)

    15. IN A MINOR KEY.; His Incivility.
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 15, 1910. p. 4 (1 page)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PRICE-FIXED (PRIX FIXE, continued)

   I saw COOKING FOR KINGS last night, about the first "celebrity chef,"
Careme...It probably doesn't work as a play...No "pave," although it's probably in
his works...Definitions of the words "restaurant" and "bistro" were given.  I
found the first English "restaurant" and had to restrain myself.
   On the way to the show, I passed by Nellie's at Macdougall and West
Houston streets.  A sign stated:

   NELLIE'S
3-COURSE
PRICE-FIXED
DINNER $26

   No one in New York can get "prix fixe" correct?
   Isn't price fixing illegal?


From ron.silliman at VERIZON.NET  Thu Jun 10 10:59:02 2004
From: ron.silliman at VERIZON.NET (Ron)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 06:59:02 -0400
Subject: Ghost in the Machine
In-Reply-To: <20040610040140.HZJN5473.mta015.verizon.net@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.065902.0400.>

What is the origin of the phrase "Ghost in the machine"?

Ron Silliman


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 10 11:34:45 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 07:34:45 -0400
Subject: "Morning in America" (1984); "Teflon" President (1983)
In-Reply-To: <p06020403bced926bfe4e@[10.0.1.2]>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.073445.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Geoffrey Nunberg wrote:

> this? Also, it would be interesting to know when the phrase was first
> used with the definite article (which changed the sense of 'great',
> of course) -- was this before the 1980 election?

Earliest with definite article on Nexis is U.S. News & World Report, 8
Dec. 1980.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 10 11:40:54 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 07:40:54 -0400
Subject: Ghost in the Machine
In-Reply-To: <002e01c44ed9$f0d299a0$6501a8c0@Dell>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.074054.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Ron wrote:

> What is the origin of the phrase "Ghost in the machine"?

Gilbert Ryle, The Concept of Mind (1949) ch. 1, uses this to refer to
Descartes' philosophy of mind.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 10 16:41:22 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:41:22 -0400
Subject: "Early American Newspaper" is late
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.124122.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I e-mailed READEX again.  "Early American Newspapers" was due out "first quarter 2004," then "end of May."  Now it's "end of June."
   At last night's Culinary Historians of NY event, I told the CHNY president that we shouldn't do the OXFROD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK without it.  There might be a "cocktail" in it.  She didn't know about the database.  Of course, she didn't know about me, either...

Barry Popik

Dear Mr. Popik,

Thank you for your email.  Currently we anticipate the initial release date of our Early American Newspapers-Digital Edition to be released at the end of this month (June).  If you would like, when it does become available I will notify you as I see that the New York Public Library has indeed purchased access to it.

Please confirm if you would like email notification when it is available.

Best regards,

Janet

Janet Scullin

Customer Support

Readex - NewsBank


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 10 17:00:19 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:00:19 -0400
Subject: pegu
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.130019.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For the purposes of lexicographic research, I determined to check out
the pegu recipe Barry unearthed for us last week:

>Pegu
>
>George Orwell, a British colonial police officer in Burma during the
>'20s, observed that the past belongs to those who control the
>present. When it comes to the nearly forgotten Pegu cocktail, few
>words could ring truer.
>
>Between the '20s and the '40s, no other exotic mix was as popular as
>this drink, which hails from the Pegu Club, located in a small town
>of nearly the same name. The bar was about 50 miles outside Rangoon,
>the capital of Burma - the country we refuse to call Myanmar, now
>better known for its infamous drug-producing region, the Golden
>Triangle.
>
>According to Harry Craddock's Savoy Cocktail Club of 1930, people
>traveled the world round and asked everyone for this drink. But at
>about the time Orwell penned "Big Brother is watching you" and Burma
>gained its so-called independence, the Pegu vanished.
>
>Fortunately for us, though, the Pegu is finally in resurgence,
>meaning that this inspiring gin cocktail has been sighted at bars
>that we frequent. With 1 1/2 ounces gin, 1/2 ounce Cointreau, 1/2
>ounce lime juice, and a few dashes of Angostura bitters, all shaken
>with ice and strained into a chilled cocktail glass, the Pegu makes
>for a pungent drink that stimulates the senses and soothes the soul.
>
>http://hotwired.wired.com/cocktail/96/16/index4a.html
>

I can vouch for its excellence (even when a tablespoon of cheap
Triple Sec past its pull date is substituted for the specified
Cointreau, and suburban New Haven substituted for exurban Rangoon).
Just in case anyone was wondering.

Larry


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Thu Jun 10 17:25:03 2004
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally Donlon)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 12:25:03 -0500
Subject: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.122503.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, as a "native" American speaker and, worse, deep Southerner, I am regularly
ridiculed (locally and by friends and family across the US) for my schwa-ended
pronunciation of the vehicle made by Porsche. I also distinguish between "w" and
"hw" and hear no end of grief on that count from my adolescent daughter and her
friends.

Also, here in Cajun Country, where there exists a slight and barely conscious,
albeit historically supported, disdain for most things British, I know of a retired
racehorse named "Quick Sotti." The new owner, a friend who'd performed in "The Man
of La Mancha" during undergraduate school, didn't recognize the connection until I
wrote the horse's name down and walked her through it.

It leapt right out to me, I believe, because I do pronounce "quixotic" as if it
were English, which it is (isn't it?). And I've always assumed that the Brits
coined the adjective following on their original Anglicization of "Quixote."

Am I incorrect in all of this?

sally donlon

P.S. I also have always thought "coup de gras" had no pronounced "s" on the end.
We're so used to pronouncing "Mardi Gras" without that "s" that I guess it just
carries over for us.  -sod-

Damien Hall wrote:

> Fritz Juengling said:
>
> =================
>
> "I think you are suggesting that 'porsch' is a spelling pronunciation.  I agree
> with that.  But why should a spelling pronunciation take over?  English
> speakers must have seen the cars before they heard any German speaker sayh the
> name of the car.?
> Still seems odd that a name, and a well-known one at that, should be
> mispronounced."
>
> =================
>
> It doesn't strike me as odd really.  Whether or not British English speakers
> saw
> Porsches before they heard any German speaker say the name, I think there would
> be a frequency effect that would lead to the spelling pronunciation taking
> over, since most British English speakers who used the name of the car would be
> doing so after having seen it written on the car rather than after having heard
> a German say it.
>
> The reason it doesn't strike me as odd is my own observation that Brits do
> nativise a lot;  of course, 'a lot' is relative, and it only becomes obvious
> that 'a lot' of nativisation goes on in British English when you compare that
> amount with the smaller amount of nativisation done by, say, Americans.
> However common the name, I'm therefore not surprised to see it nativised;  the
> (Don) ['kwiksuht] example is another very good one.  The work I mentioned
> before statistically supports the idea that Brits tend to nativise much more
> than Americans.  I was interested to hear from Susan though that the 'native'
> American pronunciation of 'Porsche' may actually be the same as the British
> one.  That's one more indication that my theory, which I admit is based mostly
> on French and Spanish words, needs to be more nuanced.
>
> =================
>
> Then:
>
> "Don't the Brits also say 'Don joo-un' instead of 'don (h)wan' and 'don
> kwikset'
> instead of 'don kee-ho-tay/tee'?  Ouch!  (I can't even give in to 'kwiksotic'
> even tho I am not a Spanish speaker).  I'd be interested to see some
> nativisation or pronunciation studies."
>
> ================
>
> Well ...  'Don joo-un', as far as I'm aware, is only the Byron poem.
> Elsewhere,
> it's usually [don hwan], as, for example, when you're using the name to refer
> to someone who's a 'Casanova', a 'ladykiller' (to mix my metaphors - sorry).
> And, yes, I do, unapologetically(!), say 'don kwikset' (the last vowel is a
> schwa).  Call it inverse snobbery if you like, and I think maybe it *is*, but I
> think many Brits would think it was pretentious to use the actual Spanish
> pronunciation in an otherwise English phrase, and I'm pretty sure that use of
> the Sp pronunciation in an English context is limited to specialists:  literary
> people and Hispanicists.
>
> So, if you/one say(s) [ki'hoteh / ki'hoti] for 'Quixote', can someone tell me
> how 'quixotic' is pronounced?   That, of course, is just an English word, so it
> would seem really strange to me to pronounce it any other way than the English
> [kwIk'sotik].
>
> Fascinated,
>
> Damien Hall
> University of Pennsylvania


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Jun 10 17:46:41 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 10:46:41 -0700
Subject: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
In-Reply-To: <40C8996F.ED5B8F87@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.104641.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hey--I think I see great potential here for some city (probably some dour
northern place, like New Haven) that may have felt out-reveled by New
Orleans: the new holiday Coudi Gras!

Peter Mc.

--On Thursday, June 10, 2004 12:25 PM -0500 Sally Donlon
<sod at LOUISIANA.EDU> wrote:

> P.S. I also have always thought "coup de gras" had no pronounced "s" on
> the end. We're so used to pronouncing "Mardi Gras" without that "s" that
> I guess it just carries over for us.  -sod-



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 10 18:08:32 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:08:32 -0400
Subject: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
In-Reply-To: <40C8996F.ED5B8F87@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.140832.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:25 PM -0500 6/10/04, Sally Donlon wrote:
>
>P.S. I also have always thought "coup de gras" had no pronounced "s"
>on the end.

"coup de gras" wouldn't.  "coup de grace", on the other hand...

>We're so used to pronouncing "Mardi Gras" without that "s" that I
>guess it just
>carries over for us.

But we (sometimes) call the latter "Fat Tuesday".  Do people really
think of the "coup de grace" blow as having some connection with fat?
I'm not trying to be prescriptive, just wondering what the intuitive
connections are.

L


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun 10 19:53:48 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:53:48 -0400
Subject: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
In-Reply-To: <p04320400bcee539f04ec@[130.132.231.227]>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.155348.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I suspect the source of the problem is that we hear these terms more than
we read them.  So, if  the prevailing pronunciation has no 's', and if one
might have heard or seen "foie gras," the 'gras' is carried over to "coup
de gras."  I wonder what people do with "coup d'etat"?  I also suspect none
of these French words have individual meaning for most English speakers
(gras, etat, grace, mardi, even coup); the phrases are just picked up whole.

At 02:08 PM 6/10/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>At 12:25 PM -0500 6/10/04, Sally Donlon wrote:
>>
>>P.S. I also have always thought "coup de gras" had no pronounced "s"
>>on the end.
>
>"coup de gras" wouldn't.  "coup de grace", on the other hand...
>
>>We're so used to pronouncing "Mardi Gras" without that "s" that I
>>guess it just
>>carries over for us.
>
>But we (sometimes) call the latter "Fat Tuesday".  Do people really
>think of the "coup de grace" blow as having some connection with fat?
>I'm not trying to be prescriptive, just wondering what the intuitive
>connections are.
>
>L


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Jun 10 21:31:25 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:31:25 -0700
Subject: Prescriptive question
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.143125.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I know better than to ask the denizens of this list to BE prescriptive, but
in this case I'm not sure whether a prescriptive "rule" exists anymore,
even for prescriptivists.  I've tried the Chicago Manual of Style on this
one, but no luck.  I don't have any other style manuals handy.

The case is embodied in sentences like:

"The Burgville Philharmonic invites you to subscribe to our upcoming
concert season."

Have even the prescriptivists dropped an earlier insistence on changing
"our" to "its," or is this prescription alive and well for formal writing?

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From preston at MSU.EDU  Thu Jun 10 22:09:48 2004
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 18:09:48 -0400
Subject: Prescriptive question
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1086877885@[10.218.203.245]>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.180948.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Why is it so hard to see the "lurking we" (I know, I should eschew
>technical terms) here?

dInIs



>I know better than to ask the denizens of this list to BE prescriptive, but
>in this case I'm not sure whether a prescriptive "rule" exists anymore,
>even for prescriptivists.  I've tried the Chicago Manual of Style on this
>one, but no luck.  I don't have any other style manuals handy.
>
>The case is embodied in sentences like:
>
>"The Burgville Philharmonic invites you to subscribe to our upcoming
>concert season."
>
>Have even the prescriptivists dropped an earlier insistence on changing
>"our" to "its," or is this prescription alive and well for formal writing?
>
>Peter Mc.
>
>*****************************************************************
>Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Jun 10 22:31:19 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:31:19 -0700
Subject: Prescriptive question
In-Reply-To: <a06020400bcee8c7b9a17@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.153119.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's not at all hard to see the "lurking we," which is probably why "our"
in this construction is so common no matter what people's high school
English teachers tried to tell them.  But I remember being taught that "it"
was de rigueur in formal writing, and I wonder if there are still those who
would go "tsk! tsk!" at the "we."


--On Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:09 PM -0400 "Dennis R. Preston"
<preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:

>> Why is it so hard to see the "lurking we" (I know, I should eschew
>> technical terms) here?
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
>> I know better than to ask the denizens of this list to BE prescriptive,
>> but in this case I'm not sure whether a prescriptive "rule" exists
>> anymore, even for prescriptivists.  I've tried the Chicago Manual of
>> Style on this one, but no luck.  I don't have any other style manuals
>> handy.
>>
>> The case is embodied in sentences like:
>>
>> "The Burgville Philharmonic invites you to subscribe to our upcoming
>> concert season."
>>
>> Have even the prescriptivists dropped an earlier insistence on changing
>> "our" to "its," or is this prescription alive and well for formal
>> writing?
>>
>> Peter Mc.
>>
>> *****************************************************************
>> Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
>> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
>         Asian and African Languages
> Wells Hall A-740
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
> Office: (517) 353-0740
> Fax: (517) 432-2736



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 11 00:54:23 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:54:23 EDT
Subject: "Chitlin' Circuit" (OT:Ray Charles dies) (1967); New
 Newspaperarchive
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.205423.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PRIOR POST:  The end of my "Tinker-to-Evers-to-Chance" and "Price-Fixed" post
might have been mangled by HTML code.  It might be more legible in the
archives.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"CHITLIN' CIRCUIT"

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040610/D834E06O0.html
Grammy-Winner Ray Charles Dies at 73
Jun 10, 6:26 PM (ET)
By ANTHONY BREZNICAN
BEVERLY HILLS, Calif. (AP) - Ray Charles, a transcendent talent who erased
musical boundaries between the sacred and the secular with hits such as "What'd
I Say,""Georgia on My Mind" and "I Can't Stop Loving You," died Thursday. He
was 73.
(...)
By the time he was 15 his parents were dead and Charles had graduated from
St. Augustine. He wound up playing gigs in black dance halls - the so-called
chitlin' circuit - and exposed himself to a variety of music, including hillbilly
(he learned to yodel) before moving to Seattle.


   Ray Charles was 15 in 1945, but the HDAS has 1974 for "chitlin circuit."
It was allegedly first used by singer Lou Rawls.
   Compare "chitlin' circuit" with "borscht circuit."  Entertainers + food!


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 Valley News    Sunday, October 02, 1977 Van Nuys, California
...it together on weekends, playing the CHITLIN CIRCUIT and learning all the
pop.....we started to make our plans." The "CHITLIN CIRCUIT" carried them to
Harlem..

   Gettysburg Times     Monday, August 29, 1977 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania
...has focused on since starting on the "CHITLIN' CIRCUIT" of black night
clubs..

   Indiana Gazette  Friday, September 02, 1977 Indiana, Pennsylvania
...has focused on since starting on the "CHITLIN' CIRCUIT" of black night
clubs..

   Edwardsville Intelligencer   Friday, July 23, 1971 Edwardsville, Illinois

...used to play the little clubs on the "CHITLIN CIRCUIT" in the 'South, but
now.....is a veteran of the county fair CIRCUIT. He enjoys the atmosphere so..

 Lincoln Evening Journal    Tuesday, October 14, 1975 Lincoln, Nebraska
...Carol Rogers on what she calls "the CHITLIN CIRCUIT of Omaha" anymore.
She..

 News Journal   Saturday, October 09, 1976 Mansfield, Ohio
...his for the hoots and hollers of the CHITLIN' CIRCUIT. He also sang backup
on..

 Advocate   Wednesday, October 20, 1976 Newark, Ohio
...his for the hoots and hollers of the CHITLIN' CIRCUIT. He also sang backup
on..

 Times Recorder     Sunday, May 28, 1967 Zanesville, Ohio
...it. He used to sing on what he calls CHITLIN' CIRCUIT so small you had
to..
Pg. 2-B, col. 5:
_Climb To Top_
_Long For Rawls_
   HOLLYWOOD (NEA)--Lou Rawls is another of those overnight successes--a
sudden smash after 27 years if experience.  He says he's singing now the same as
he did when he first started entertaining, at 7, but it's only in the last few
years that the great American public has found him.
   "Three years ago," Lou says, "I was living in a motel room.  Now I've got
this fine house.  Three years ago, I was making $125 a week.  Now I get
$10,000.  Man, I can't believe it."
   He used to sing on what he calls "the chitlin' circuit"--"places so small
you had to dress in the men's room."  Now he packs them in at the Cocoanut
Grove.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  B.B. King Sings the Blues Evra Day, Evra Day; B. B. King sings the
blues BLUES ON PARADE
By MICHAEL LYDON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 27,
1968. p. SM36 (9 pages)
Second page, photo caption:  After 20 years on the "chitlin circuit," he is
being noticed as one of the bluesmen of genius.

    2.  The Story Of the Blues; By Paul Oliver. Illustrated. 176 pp.
Philadelphia: Chilton Book Company. $12.50.
By ARNOLD SHAW. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 19,
1969. p. BR18 (1 page)

    3.  For B.B. King, Blues Reign Supreme
By JOHN S. WILSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun
12, 1970. p. 29 (1 page)

    4.  Labelle Not Out to Sell Its Soul Short
By JOHN ROCKWELL. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 7,
1975. p. 50 (1 page)

    5.  Music: Lou Rawls on Broadway
By JOHN S. WILSON. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov
25, 1977. p. 90 (1 page)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
NEW NEWSPAPERARCHIVE

   Newspaperarchive.com has changed.  First impressions:
   The "thumbnails" are much improved and actually resemble English...The
text that first pops up is way too small to be read...The "Recently Added"
helps...The "Recipe of the Day" is weak...


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 11 01:14:52 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:14:52 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Early=20American=20Newsp?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?aper"=20is=20late?=
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.211452.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It would be useful to me--and maybe some others--if Barry would give us her 
e-mail address. I would definitely want the Duke library to subscribe. Or, if 
private subscriptions are available, I might do it myself!

In a message dated 6/10/04 12:41:53 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:


> ?? I e-mailed READEX again.? "Early American Newspapers" was due out "first 
> quarter 2004," then "end of May."? Now it's "end of June."
> ?? At last night's Culinary Historians of NY event, I told the CHNY 
> president that we shouldn't do the OXFROD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK 
> without it.? There might be a "cocktail" in it.? She didn't know about the 
> database.? Of course, she didn't know about me, either...
> 
> Barry Popik
> 
> Dear Mr. Popik,
> 
> Thank you for your email.? Currently we anticipate the initial release date 
> of our Early American Newspapers-Digital Edition to be released at the end of 
> this month (June).? If you would like, when it does become available I will 
> notify you as I see that the New York Public Library has indeed purchased 
> access to it.
> 
> Please confirm if you would like email notification when it is available.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Janet
> 
> Janet Scullin
> 
> Customer Support
> 
> Readex - NewsBank
> 
> 


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun 11 01:45:02 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:45:02 -0400
Subject: Jasbo = Bozo (1914)
In-Reply-To: <12c.43de98ce.2df964e0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.214502.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here (from N'archive) is "jasbo" apparently meaning "bozo"/"dummy":

----------

_Edwardsville Intelligencer_ (Edwardsville IL), 10 March 1914: p. 2(?):

[Comic strip]

<<I KNEW A JASBO ONCE WHO READ ABOUT A CHAP GETTING PAID $5,000. DAMAGES
FOR BEING STRUCK BY AN AUTO AND THINKING IT WAS EASY MONEY /

HE TRIED IT. -- WAITED UNTIL HE SAW AN EXPENSIVE LOOKING CAR (WITH A SOFT
RADIATOR) AND ACCIDENTALLY STEPPED IN FRONT AND /

THE PARTY THEN STOPPED THEIR CAR, CAME BACK AND GATHERED HIM TOGETHER -- HE
WAS SPILLED ALL OVER THE ROAD AND /

THINKING HIM DEAD AND NOT CARING TO SPEND THE REST OF THEIR LIVES IN JAIL
-- THEY CHUCKED THE JASBO IN THE BACK OF THE TONNEAU AND -- /

BEAT IT RIGHT PAST THE HOSPITAL ON OUT INTO THE COUNTRY WHERE THEY SPEEDED
UP TO 72 AND THEN DROPPED THE MUSSED UP HUMAN OVER A CONVENIENT FENCE AND
KEPT RIGHT ON GOING -- /

AND THE JASBO DECORATED THE SPOT WHERE HE LIT FOR TWO DAYS IN A MUCH
COMEE-JOSE CONDITION AND ONLY CAME TO -- WHEN A SQUIRREL NIBBLED THE END OF
HIS NOSE FOR A NUT AND AS HE /

HAD FORGOTTEN THE NUMBER OF THE CAR -- HE WAS OBLIGED TO PASS UP HIS $5,000
DAMAGE SUIT AND GO GET HIM AN HONEST JOB>>

----------

-- Doug Wilson


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Jun 11 02:10:44 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:10:44 -0400
Subject: hoopers
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.221044.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From an article in the NYTimes of June 10, 2004 (section B, p. 1, col. 2) on malefactors who have been capturing pigeons from NYC parks and carrying them to Pennsylvania where they serve as targets at gun clubs.  The malefactors throw down crumbs or seeds and catch the pigeons under a net.  The article refers to them as "netters", but "Edwin, a Bronx pet store owner who . . . asked that his last name not be used," who is an authority on the subject, differs.  ""Actually," he said, "they're called hoopers because thay use hoop-shaoed hand-held-nets.""

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Jun 11 02:17:14 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:17:14 -0400
Subject: C. O. (Correction Officer)
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.221714.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is an initialism that isn't in HDAS.  From a story in the NYTimes, Sunday, June 6, 2004, "City" section, p. 4, col. 4, a narrative by Daryl Letsome, a retired guard at the jail on Riker's Island.

"As a correction officer, you have to know how to interact with the inmates.  The inmates are dependent on the guards.  "C. O., can I get into my cell?"  "C. O., can I use the phone?"  They have no other alternative."

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Fri Jun 11 02:19:33 2004
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:19:33 -0400
Subject: C. O. (Correction Officer)
In-Reply-To: <22aff0922ad9d0.22ad9d022aff09@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.221933.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, George Thompson wrote:

>"As a correction officer, you have to know how to interact with the
inmates.  The inmates are dependent on the guards.  "C. O., can I get
into my cell?"  "C. O., can I use the phone?"  They have no other
alternative."

Are <They> the inmates or the officers?

Bethany


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Jun 11 02:32:57 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:32:57 -0400
Subject: Shandy-Lack revisited
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.223257.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You folks doubtless remember the discussion a year or so ago of the Shandy-Lack Theory of Onomastic Determinism, a hypothesis that a person's life is determined by his or her name, first proposed by Walter Shandy in the 18th century novel Tristram Shandy, and confirmed by the research of David Lack, a British ornithologist, who observed a striking number of ornithologists (other than himself) whose name was the name of a bird or of a part of a bird.

Confirming evidence comes from a recent article in Discover magazine, which cites a marine biologist named Herring.  But counter-evidence is found in the NYTimes of June 2,  2004, section A, p. 1, col. 3 and continued on p. A15, which profiles Stephanie Vowell, who obviously should be a philologist, but is in fact a stripper in a Los Vegas club.  However, she evidently  realizes that she is nearing the end of her career as a stripper, and needs to make plans for the rest of her life, so perhaps philology will be her second career.  If she should enroll in a linguistics program near you, you may recognize her as "a small-town Midwesterner, a self-described "big fake blond" who stands 6-foot-3 in her 7 1/2 inch heels with a fake blond ponytail, fake eyelashes, fake green eyes, a fake tan and fake breasts."  If still in doubt, try calling "hey, Trixie" and see if she responds.

In any event, until we see where Ms Vowell goes when she leaves Vegas, the Shandy-Lack Theory probably should be conceded to be controversial.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Jun 11 02:39:32 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 22:39:32 -0400
Subject: C. O. (Correction Officer)
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.223932.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The paragraph ended there, but I would read it as saying that the inmates have no alternative but to ask the officers for favors or permission to do simple things.  If the inmates were not the subject of the last sentence, I would expect it to be construed as if the subject was "officer" rather than "guards", and the sentence to be cast in the singular.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU>
Date: Thursday, June 10, 2004 10:19 pm
Subject: Re: C. O. (Correction Officer)

> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, George Thompson wrote:
>
> >"As a correction officer, you have to know how to interact with the
> inmates.  The inmates are dependent on the guards.  "C. O., can I get
> into my cell?"  "C. O., can I use the phone?"  They have no other
> alternative."
>
> Are <They> the inmates or the officers?
>
> Bethany
>


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Jun 11 03:00:23 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:00:23 -0400
Subject: Antedating of quarterback sneak 1919
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.230023.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED/M-W have 1923.

12 Oct. 1919  _Sandusky(OH) Register_  13/1 (Newspaperarchive)

<<In the second period, Wilce's machine got under way, scoring through Stinchcomb's quarterback sneak, an end run, and another dropkick by Harley.>>

Go Bucs!

Sam Clements


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jun 11 04:56:23 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:56:23 -0700
Subject: Prescriptive question
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1086877885@[10.218.203.245]>
Message-ID: <THU.10.JUN.2004.215623.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 10, 2004, at 2:31 PM, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> I know better than to ask the denizens of this list to BE
> prescriptive, but
> in this case I'm not sure whether a prescriptive "rule" exists anymore,
> even for prescriptivists.  I've tried the Chicago Manual of Style on
> this
> one, but no luck.  I don't have any other style manuals handy.
>
> The case is embodied in sentences like:
>
> "The Burgville Philharmonic invites you to subscribe to our upcoming
> concert season."
>
> Have even the prescriptivists dropped an earlier insistence on
> changing "our" to "its," or is this prescription alive and well for
> formal writing?

i've checked out eight handbooks -- four in the fowler tradition, four
manuals for college students -- and don't see this specific case
discussed or exemplified, though it would of course come under the
general rubric of pronouns having to agree with their antecedents in
person, number, and gender.  everybody's much exercised about pronouns
with indefinites as antecedents, and many of the books care a lot about
switches between various generic pronouns ("one", "you", "they"), but
no one seems to mention the lurking "we".

somewhere i have some nice cites of this, along the lines of "Lesbians
are finally making ourselves visible" -- though i myself find the
non-reflexive examples much easier to get than the reflexive ones.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 11 07:31:00 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 03:31:00 EDT
Subject: Late to/for his own funeral (1881); C. O.,
 Early American Newspapers
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.033100.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS--I'm dying for that first American _sandwich_!
www.readex.com.
Janet Scullin, Customer Support, jscullin at newsbank.com
CustService at newsbank.com
sales at newsbank.com

C.O.--In real estate-obsessed New York City, it will always mean "Certificate
of Occupancy."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
LATE TO/FOR HIS OWN FUNERAL

   Today (Friday) is Ronald Reagan's funeral.  I heard this phrase used; I
haven't yet checked for it on the American Periodical Series database.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
   Bangor Daily Whig And Courier    Saturday, March 12, 1881 Bangor, Maine
...you .would .manage to be LATE FOR YOUR OWN FUNERAL." J'That would not
depend.....orir destination I never was exactly LATE, but I often, made by the
shortest..

 Evening Observer   Friday, October 12, 1883 Dunkirk, New York
...you would manage to be LATE FOR YOUR OWN FUNERAL." ''That would not
depend.....have convinced him of being just too LATE FOR once, I should have
something..

   Manitoba Free Press  Monday, June 19, 1922 Winnipeg, Manitoba
...J Man Arrives Several Days LATE FOR HIS OWN FUNERAL June18. J. H.
Vance.....to find he was several days LATE FOR OWN funeial. The body of. a..

   Sheboygan Press  Thursday, June 13, 1935 Sheboygan, Wisconsin
...1898 "He's so slow he'll be LATE TO HIS OWN FUNERAL." Just So You Know
And.....a judgment in Keeping w'1" j outh wore HIS hat on the back of HIS creTr..


   Zanesville Signal    Sunday, December 20, 1936 Zanesville, Ohio
...Kas., Dec. 19 W) A raaa was LATE to HIS OWN FUNERAL here. The
Methodist.....Fifth Street Phone 131 MAN IS LATE FOR HIS OWN FUNERAL Russell..

   Sheboygan Press  Monday, February 07, 1938 Sheboygan, Wisconsin
...on it. Nifty, 1898 "He'll be LATE TO HIS OWN FUNERAL." Add Observations
An.....because of HIS sincerity, HIS courage, HIS industry, HIS
level-headedness, HIS..

 Tri City Herald    Thursday, January 31, 1957 Pasco, Washington
...FOR Kennewick, may not be LATE FOR HIS OWN FUNERAL, but he wasn't
exactly.....in HIS favor, FOR the reason behind HIS tardiness lay in HIS efFORt to..
 News Journal   Tuesday, September 21, 1971 Mansfield, Ohio
...up to the cliche, "He'd be LATE FOR HIS OWN FUNERAL." And imagine the joy
of.....t go one step further and throw HIS OWN FUNERAL. Psychiatrists have
long..

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
SLIPPING THE LARIAT OVER
BY WILL ROGERS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 17,
1923. p. XX2 (1 page):
      _Funeral Speedsters._
   Then they show the Modern Hearses, which go so fast they killed more
people than they carried.  You know we don't stop to realize it now, but in the old
days it was nothing for a man to be late to his own Funeral.

.   MONEY FOR NOTHING
P G Wodehouse. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.:
Jun 2, 1929. p. I1 (10 pages)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 11 14:36:52 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 10:36:52 -0400
Subject: Recent Computer Quotations
In-Reply-To: <145.2bb93ec5.2dfab9b4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.103652.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would welcome contributions of recent (last 5 or 10 years)
computer-related quotations and proverbial sayings.  Past requests of this
sort have resulted in contributions of specialized geeky quotes that are
not of much value to me; I am looking for sayings of broad popularity and
significance.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 11 15:31:09 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:31:09 -0400
Subject: Origin of "joe" (coffee)--"Old Black Joe" (coffee without
 cream)              in 1911 cartoon
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.113109.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

Gerald's upload reminds me of the old saying which I have heard so many
times. A waitress asks a customer how he likes his coffee , and he replies,
"The same way I like my women: hot and black."

There is no question about the derivation of this.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Cohen" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 9:51 PM
Subject: Origin of "joe" (coffee)--"Old Black Joe" (coffee without cream) in
1911 cartoon


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Gerald Cohen <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
> Subject:      Origin of "joe" (coffee)--"Old Black Joe" (coffee without
cream)
>               in 1911 cartoon
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
>       HDAS says tentatively about "joe" (coffee; esp. in Navy):
> "perhaps as suggested in 1980 quote; the Foster song was extremely
> popular." ---1980: Mack & Connell, _Naval Trads._ (5th edition) 260:
> 'Some sailors call coffee "joe," which some say is a derivative of
> [Stephen] Foster's song, "Old Black Joe."'
>
>       Barry Popik sent me a 1911 'Osgar und Adolf' cartoon in
> connection with 'hot dog,' and one character speaks of 'Old Black
> Joe' meaning coffee without cream. [It fits into the context of
> hashhouse lingo,  and Jack Smiley mentions 'joe' (coffee) in his 1941
> book _Hash house Lingo_.]
>
>       The 1911 information is:
> 'Osgar und Adolf' cartoon, by Condo; title: 'Every Little Melody Has
> Meaning of It's [apostrophe: sic] Own'; _Tacoma Times_; , Feb. 27,
> 1911, p.4. (Misspellings below: sic) ---
> First frame, Osgar to Adolf: 'Diss moosik box shoult make you der
> orders plain, Adolf.  For instance ven id plays "Old Black Joe" id
> means coffee mitoudt cream. "Bring me a rose" means Limberger
> cheece--und "Come under my plaidie" means oatmeal porridge.'
>         Adolf replies: 'So?'
> Second frame, music box sings out: 'Hush-a-bye, baby, don't you cry'
> and 'Daddy buy me a bow-wow'
>         Adolf says: "I see, "Don'd you cry" means peeled onions and
> "bow wow" means sissage.'
> [Four more frames follow.]
>
> ----Gerald Cohen


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Jun 11 15:53:12 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 11:53:12 -0400
Subject: one...two...three... mum
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.115312.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just came upon a group of middle school students playing a game of catch
involving 6 or 8 players.  I don't have my normal resources at hand.  Is
this a well-documented term...  "1, 2, 3, mum"?  The players are not
allowed to speak or drop the ball on pain of expulsion from the round of
the game.


Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Jun 11 15:54:46 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:54:46 -0700
Subject: Prescriptive question
In-Reply-To: <B01CD302-BB63-11D8-95DD-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.085446.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gee, thanks for the free research, Arnold!  I was surprised not to find a
reference to this in the Chicago manual, and I'm even more surprised to
hear it's absent from EIGHT other manuals.  The question, of course, is
whether the manuals omit it because they've decided there's nothing wrong
with the "lurking we" or because they think it's such an obvious no-no that
it isn't even worth mentioning.

Peter Mc.

--On Thursday, June 10, 2004 9:56 PM -0700 "Arnold M. Zwicky"
<zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU> wrote:

> On Jun 10, 2004, at 2:31 PM, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>
>> I know better than to ask the denizens of this list to BE
>> prescriptive, but
>> in this case I'm not sure whether a prescriptive "rule" exists anymore,
>> even for prescriptivists.  I've tried the Chicago Manual of Style on
>> this
>> one, but no luck.  I don't have any other style manuals handy.
>>
>> The case is embodied in sentences like:
>>
>> "The Burgville Philharmonic invites you to subscribe to our upcoming
>> concert season."
>>
>> Have even the prescriptivists dropped an earlier insistence on
>> changing "our" to "its," or is this prescription alive and well for
>> formal writing?
>
> i've checked out eight handbooks -- four in the fowler tradition, four
> manuals for college students -- and don't see this specific case
> discussed or exemplified, though it would of course come under the
> general rubric of pronouns having to agree with their antecedents in
> person, number, and gender.  everybody's much exercised about pronouns
> with indefinites as antecedents, and many of the books care a lot about
> switches between various generic pronouns ("one", "you", "they"), but
> no one seems to mention the lurking "we".
>
> somewhere i have some nice cites of this, along the lines of "Lesbians
> are finally making ourselves visible" -- though i myself find the
> non-reflexive examples much easier to get than the reflexive ones.
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 11 16:03:53 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:03:53 -0400
Subject: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.120353.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

When I grew up coop dee grass was used as a joke.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> At 12:25 PM -0500 6/10/04, Sally Donlon wrote:
> >
> >P.S. I also have always thought "coup de gras" had no pronounced "s"
> >on the end.
>
> "coup de gras" wouldn't.  "coup de grace", on the other hand...
>
> >We're so used to pronouncing "Mardi Gras" without that "s" that I
> >guess it just
> >carries over for us.
>
> But we (sometimes) call the latter "Fat Tuesday".  Do people really
> think of the "coup de grace" blow as having some connection with fat?
> I'm not trying to be prescriptive, just wondering what the intuitive
> connections are.
>
> L


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 11 16:08:23 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:08:23 -0400
Subject: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.120823.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

It is difficult to generalize about all of the different pronunciations in
British English dialects but one which intrigues me is the way that an
English friend and I differ in the consonants we do or do not pronounce.

He always pronounces the h in herbs and once told me that he needed some
solder and had the damndest time trying to tell a US hardware store
employee what he wanted since he pronounced it the way it is written
complete with the letter l.

I will not guess what the word pronounced in the US as sodder might mean in
the UK, but I would guess that it is impolite on the grounds that "the old
sod" as he would use it does not refer to Ireland. I will have to ask him
one
of these days.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Beverly Flanigan" <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> I suspect the source of the problem is that we hear these terms more than
> we read them.  So, if  the prevailing pronunciation has no 's', and if one
> might have heard or seen "foie gras," the 'gras' is carried over to "coup
> de gras."  I wonder what people do with "coup d'etat"?  I also suspect
none
> of these French words have individual meaning for most English speakers
> (gras, etat, grace, mardi, even coup); the phrases are just picked up
whole.
>
> At 02:08 PM 6/10/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> >At 12:25 PM -0500 6/10/04, Sally Donlon wrote:
> >>
> >>P.S. I also have always thought "coup de gras" had no pronounced "s"
> >>on the end.
> >
> >"coup de gras" wouldn't.  "coup de grace", on the other hand...
> >
> >>We're so used to pronouncing "Mardi Gras" without that "s" that I
> >>guess it just
> >>carries over for us.
> >
> >But we (sometimes) call the latter "Fat Tuesday".  Do people really
> >think of the "coup de grace" blow as having some connection with fat?
> >I'm not trying to be prescriptive, just wondering what the intuitive
> >connections are.
> >
> >L


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jun 11 16:24:46 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:24:46 -0700
Subject: Prescriptive question
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1086944086@[10.218.203.245]>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.092446.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 11, 2004, at 8:54 AM, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> Gee, thanks for the free research, Arnold!

there's a lot of that going around in this list.  we even have larry
horn doing recipe testing for us!

i have a very large (and ever-growing) collection of handbooks,
manuals, textbooks, and usage dictionaries, and it's not hard to pick
out a few and riffle through them.  it can be a little tricky to figure
out where pronoun-antecedent relationships will be classified (under
agreement, antecedent, concord, pronoun, or what), and you have to look
at the examples and exercises, because these often introduce types of
sentences that are not explicitly mentioned in the rules, but i've had
lots of experience (by now) in dealing with this.

i do have to be at my library/study/office (officially named Kirjasto
Zwicky), 'cause that's where the linguistics books are.  when i'm
working from home, all i have is my fallible memory and a few sources
(AHD4, NSOED2, MWDEU, the quirk grammar, huddleston/pullum, walker's
rhyming dictionary, among them; yes, i have duplicate copies of these)
.

>  I was surprised not to find a
> reference to this in the Chicago manual, and I'm even more surprised to
> hear it's absent from EIGHT other manuals.  The question, of course, is
> whether the manuals omit it because they've decided there's nothing
> wrong with the "lurking we" or because they think it's such an obvious
> no-no that it isn't even worth mentioning.

exactly.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun 11 18:18:19 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:18:19 -0400
Subject: Shandy-Lack revisited
In-Reply-To: <20040611040216.7E63022861@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.141819.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

George Thompson wrote:

         >>>
You folks doubtless remember the discussion a year or so ago of the
Shandy-Lack Theory of Onomastic Determinism, a hypothesis that a person's
life is determined by his or her name, first proposed by Walter Shandy in
the 18th century novel Tristram Shandy, and confirmed by the research of
David Lack, a British ornithologist, who observed a striking number of
ornithologists (other than himself) whose name was the name of a bird or of
a part of a bird.
        <<<

Gee, and here I was thinking it was an explanation for why I feel so down at
the moment: an insufficiency of an appropriate fizzy drink.

OED Online:

shandy, n: Short for SHANDYGAFF. Also, a mixture of beer and fizzy lemonade.

shandygaff, n: A drink composed of a mixture of beer and ginger-beer.


Mark A. Mandel, Research Administrator
Biomedical Information Extraction, Linguistic Data Consortium
University of Pennsylvania
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Jun 11 21:45:15 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:45:15 -0500
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.164515.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A colleague has asked me about the meaning of "A high tuck-a-haw" in
the lyrics of the song "Turkey in the Straw."  Would anyone know?
The relevant verse is:

        Turkey in the straw,
        Turkey in the straw,
        Roll 'em up and twist 'em up
        A high tuck a-haw
        And hit 'em up a tune called
        Turkey in the Straw.

Also, what does "Roll 'em up and twist 'em up" refer to?

Gerald Cohen


From patty at CRUZIO.COM  Fri Jun 11 22:08:03 2004
From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 15:08:03 -0700
Subject: one...two...three... mum
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e01b265a23b9aca00228043e3.1b265c1@chain.highland s.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.150803.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hello David - I have a 13 year old daughter who walked in the room when
your message came up ;)  She says she has heard of this game at her middle
school but that 'it is not played with a ball, but different objects'.  We
are on the west coast.

Patty


At 08:53 AM 6/11/04, you wrote:
>I just came upon a group of middle school students playing a game of catch
>involving 6 or 8 players.  I don't have my normal resources at hand.  Is
>this a well-documented term...  "1, 2, 3, mum"?  The players are not
>allowed to speak or drop the ball on pain of expulsion from the round of
>the game.
>
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>barnhart at highlands.com


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Jun 11 22:13:02 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:13:02 -0400
Subject: one...two...three... mum
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.181302.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patty Davies" <patty at CRUZIO.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 6:08 PM
Subject: Re: one...two...three... mum


> Hello David - I have a 13 year old daughter who walked in the room when
> your message came up ;)  She says she has heard of this game at her middle
> school but that 'it is not played with a ball, but different objects'.  We
> are on the west coast.
>
> Patty
>
>
> At 08:53 AM 6/11/04, you wrote:
> >I just came upon a group of middle school students playing a game of
catch
> >involving 6 or 8 players.  I don't have my normal resources at hand.  Is
> >this a well-documented term...  "1, 2, 3, mum"?  The players are not
> >allowed to speak or drop the ball on pain of expulsion from the round of
> >the game.
> >
> >
> >Regards,
> >David
> >
> >barnhart at highlands.com
>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Jun 11 22:21:43 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:21:43 -0400
Subject: hoopers/hoopies
In-Reply-To: <22ac45a22aa2c7.22aa2c722ac45a@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.182143.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This reminds me of a request I got out of the blue a few weeks ago:  Some
office folks in northern Ohio were talking about "funny" terms for people,
and they came up with "hoopies."  So they looked up Ohio dialects on
Google, found my name, and called me up.  They said the term connotes
"dumb," and one of them (I heard them all talking in the background) said
he'd heard a similar term, "Oopy," which he thought was PA
Dutch/German.  Does anyone have any idea what these terms mean and where
they came from??  I told the guy at the other end I'd e-mail him if I found
out anything.  (He was with First Energy Corp., of all things!)

At 10:10 PM 6/10/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> From an article in the NYTimes of June 10, 2004 (section B, p. 1, col. 2)
> on malefactors who have been capturing pigeons from NYC parks and
> carrying them to Pennsylvania where they serve as targets at gun
> clubs.  The malefactors throw down crumbs or seeds and catch the pigeons
> under a net.  The article refers to them as "netters", but "Edwin, a
> Bronx pet store owner who . . . asked that his last name not be used,"
> who is an authority on the subject, differs.  ""Actually," he said,
> "they're called hoopers because thay use hoop-shaped hand-held-nets.""
>
>GAT
>
>George A. Thompson
>Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
>Univ. Pr., 1998.


From jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU  Fri Jun 11 22:53:07 2004
From: jdhall at WISCMAIL.WISC.EDU (Joan Houston Hall)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 17:53:07 -0500
Subject: hoopers/hoopies
In-Reply-To: <0HZ60017K10LG9@smtp99.wiscmail.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.175307.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

See DARE, where "hoopy" = "hoosier," where "hoosier" means a rustic or
hillbilly.


At 06:21 PM 6/11/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: hoopers/hoopies
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>This reminds me of a request I got out of the blue a few weeks ago:  Some
>office folks in northern Ohio were talking about "funny" terms for people,
>and they came up with "hoopies."  So they looked up Ohio dialects on
>Google, found my name, and called me up.  They said the term connotes
>"dumb," and one of them (I heard them all talking in the background) said
>he'd heard a similar term, "Oopy," which he thought was PA
>Dutch/German.  Does anyone have any idea what these terms mean and where
>they came from??  I told the guy at the other end I'd e-mail him if I found
>out anything.  (He was with First Energy Corp., of all things!)
>
>At 10:10 PM 6/10/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> > From an article in the NYTimes of June 10, 2004 (section B, p. 1, col. 2)
> > on malefactors who have been capturing pigeons from NYC parks and
> > carrying them to Pennsylvania where they serve as targets at gun
> > clubs.  The malefactors throw down crumbs or seeds and catch the pigeons
> > under a net.  The article refers to them as "netters", but "Edwin, a
> > Bronx pet store owner who . . . asked that his last name not be used,"
> > who is an authority on the subject, differs.  ""Actually," he said,
> > "they're called hoopers because thay use hoop-shaped hand-held-nets.""
> >
> >GAT
> >
> >George A. Thompson
> >Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> >Univ. Pr., 1998.


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun 11 22:48:42 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:48:42 -0400
Subject: hoopers/hoopies
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040611175139.0235ff78@wiscmail.wisc.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.184842.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>See DARE, where "hoopy" = "hoosier," where "hoosier" means a rustic or
>hillbilly.

There's also "hoople", sort of a general derogatory term, shown in HDAS.

-- Doug Wilson


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Jun 12 01:52:00 2004
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:52:00 -0700
Subject: "Morning in America" (1984); "Teflon" President (1983)
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.185200.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>

There's a possibly interesting story here: The 1942 book called
Morning in America that Barry cites was written by Willard Wiener, a
contributor to the left newspaper PM who's mentioned in Neal Gabler's
book on Walter Winchell.  The novel was actually based on the life of
the Revolutionary  general Charles Lee, but Wiener  added an epilogue
in which he asks the reader to accept his story as "a character study
of Charles Lee, an early American fascist."

In 1945, Wiener  wrote a book called  "Two hundred thousand flyers,
the story of the civilian AAF pilot training program," an account of
the same program that Ronald Reagan did documentary narrations for.
Wiener showed up in the 1950's as a Hollywood writer, though the only
writing credit I can find for him is an episode for the 50's dramatic
series "Four Star Playhouse," and I haven't been able to determine
whether RR ever guest-starred in any of these. There are more i's to
dot here, but it's quite possible that Reagan knew Wiener in one or
another of his capacities, or at least knew of his earlier book.

Geoff Nunberg


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 12 04:02:10 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 00:02:10 EDT
Subject: Reagan's "America is too great for small dreams" (1969, 1981,
 1984)
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.000210.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SMALL DREAMS + REAGAN--425 Google hits,  14 Google Groups hits

   Ronald Reagan used "small dreams" twice in his 1980s speeches.
   It appears to have been popularized by NASA in 1969.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: IM Ronald Reagan, died June 5, 2004
America is too great for small dreams. --Ronald W. Reagan The taxpayer --
that's
someone who works for the federal government but doesn't have to take a civil
...
alt.quotations - Jun 5, 2004 by Steven K. Robison - View Thread (53 articles)

Ronald Reagan: 1911-2004.
... ahead. "America is too great a country to dream small dreams." -
Ronald Reagan He said "tear down this wall," and they did. Not ...
alt.fan.tom-servo - Jun 8, 2004 by David E. Powell - View Thread (14 articles)

Reagan: We Are Americans
... 1981 This speech was delivered to the nation when President Reagan was
inaugurated ... to
realize that we're too great a nation to limit ourselves to small dreams. ...

alt.support.breast-implant - Jun 9, 2004 by Andrew Langer - View Thread (1
article)

Re: RIP President Reagan
Nicknamed "the Great Communicator," Ronald Reagan was both one of the best
political
orators of the 20th ... America is too great for small dreams." http://www
...
alt.sports.football.mn-vikings - Jun 5, 2004 by John - View Thread (33
articles)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 News Journal   Monday, March 04, 1968 Mansfield, Ohio
...are, at this tune anyway, dreaming no SMALL DREAMS. If we were geared up
for..
 Portsmouth Herald  Saturday, January 11, 1969 Portsmouth, New Hampshire
...the message fs that we should dream no SMALL DREAMS." Borman, replying for
the..
Pg. 1, col. 8:  Dr. Thomas O. Paine, acting administrator of the National
Aeronautics and Space Administration, was a member of the official party.  He
said, "Perhaps the message is that we should dream no small dreams."

 Times Bulletin     Wednesday, May 02, 1973 Van Wert, Ohio
...William Soldner to "dream no SMALL DREAMS, and lay no SMALL plans" in
their..
Pg. ?, col. 4 (YMCA fundraising--ed.):  They were urged by general campaign
chariman William Soldner to "dream no small dreams, and lay no small plans" in
their efforts to raise the money necessary to make new YMCA facilities a
reality for the citizens of Van Wert County.

 Times Bulletin     Saturday, November 23, 1974 Van Wert, Ohio
...can't do that, you say? Dream no SMALL DREAMS, think no SMALL thoughts.
Letters.....profit-making corporations, large and SMALL, have to pay federal and
state..

   Chronicle Telegram   Sunday, October 19, 1980 Elyria, Ohio
...t want a lot of mean littie men with SMALL DREAMS for slowing down the
rate.....system. I want a candidate who DREAMS big and then sets out to make
his..
 News   Tuesday, February 03, 1981 Frederick, Maryland
...great a nation to limit ourselves to SMALL DREAMS. We are not, as some
would.....great a nation to limit ourselves to SMALL DREAMS. Finnlly, it reminds
us..

 Frederick Post     Tuesday, February 03, 1981 Frederick, Maryland
...great z nation to limit ourselves to SMALL DREAMS. We are not, as some
would.....great a nation to limit ourselves to SMALL DREAMS. Finally, it reminds
us..


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("no small dreams")
    1.  <A HREF="http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0TO DISCOVER NOAH'S ARK.; Also to Perch Upon the North Pole.
Extraordinary Dream of Inventor Mulkey. His Flying Machine, the "Los Angeles," Will
Start October First.
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Apr 9, 1902. p.
A1 (1 page)

    2.  3 MOON VOYAGERS ARE HAILED HERE IN HUGE TURNOUT; Borman, Lovell and
Anders Moved by the Outpouring on a Cold, Bleak Day A BLIZZARD OF CONFETTI
Hundreds of Thousands Line Streets to Cheer Crew -- City Medals Awarded Three Moon
Voyagers Are Hailed in a Huge Outpouring Along Lower Broadway RECEPTION MOVES
APOLLO CREWMEN Borman, Lovell and Anders Are Cheered by Hundreds of Thousands
on Bleak Day
By HOMER BIGART. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 11,
1969. p. 1 (2 pages)
Pg. 14, col. 2:  Then the acting head of the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration, Dr. Thomas O. Paine, described the lunar voyage as "a message
of great hope for the nation."
   _"Dream No Small Dreams"_
   "We should dream no small dreams," he said.  "We should undertake those
enterprises which lift the soul."


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("small dreams" and "Reagan")
    1.  Other 2 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 21, 1981. p. A2 (1
page)
      _Quotation of the Day_
   "It is time for us to realize that we are too great a nation to limit
ourselves to small dreams.  We're not, as some would have us believe, doomed to an
inevitable decline.  I do not believe in a fate that will fall on us if we do
nothing."--President Reagan [B1:3]

    2.  Action Vowed On Economy; INAUGURATION '81 New President Pledges Swift
Action to Improve Economy
By Haynes Johnson Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post
(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 21, 1981. p. A1 (2 pages)

    3.  Hostage Release Opens Presidency on a Dramatic High Note
By Lee Lescaze Washington Post Staff Writer. The Washington Post
(1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 21, 1981. p. A31 (1 page)

    4.  U.S. 'Is Too Great for Small Dreams'; 'America's Best Days . . . Lie
Ahead'
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 26, 1984. p.
A16 (2 pages):
Col. 1:
   For a time, we forgot the American dream isn't one of making government
bigger; it's keeping faith with the mighty spirit of free people under God.
(...)
   On the international scene, we had an uncomfortable feeling that we had
lost the respect of friend and foe.  Some questioned whether we had the will to
defend peace and freedom.
   But America is too great for small dreams.  There was a hunger in the land
for a spiritual revival; if you will, a crusade for renewal.  The American
people said: let us look to the future with confidence, both at home and abroad.
 Let us give freedom a chance.


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Sat Jun 12 04:30:31 2004
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 23:30:31 -0500
Subject: Shandy-Lack revisited
Message-ID: <FRI.11.JUN.2004.233031.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sometimes, one wonders what parents are thinking when they name their
children.  When I was a cop in Illinois in the early 70s, we had a pair of
bank robbing brothers - Jesse James Dandridge and his brother Frank James
Dandridge and the front page of yesterday's local newspaper (Waynesville
Daily Guide) reports a Jesse James Donaldson arrested for forgery.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Thompson" <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>


You folks doubtless remember the discussion a year or so ago of the
Shandy-Lack Theory of Onomastic Determinism, a hypothesis that a person's
life is determined by his or her name, first proposed by Walter Shandy in
the 18th century novel Tristram Shandy, and confirmed by the research of
David Lack, a British ornithologist, who observed a striking number of
ornithologists (other than himself) whose name was the name of a bird or of
a part of a bird.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 12 05:17:07 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 01:17:07 EDT
Subject: Club Sandwiches (1894); "Club sandwiches, not seals" (1996)
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.011707.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CLUB SANDWICHES, NOT SEALS
  
CLUB SANDWICHES NOT--332 Google hits, 82 Google Groups hits
    
   Paris Hilton has been wearing this slogan recently.
   We're hitting the bottom with our food phrases, folks.
 
     
(GOOGLE)
Paris Hilton is Suddenly Against Clubbing; The Simple Life Star ...
... Paris Hilton is Suddenly Against Clubbing; The Simple Life Star Prefers 
to 'Club
Sandwiches, Not Seals' Wednesday, 21 January 2004 @ 23:03:11 EST. Funny ... 
www.hypocrites.com/article16530.html - 23k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
CNEWS World - Paris Hilton joins seal hunt protest
... At this month's Sundance Film Festival, Paris Hilton posed in an 
anti-hunt sweatshirt
-- "Club Sandwiches, Not Seals" -- and signed a protest letter to the ... 
cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2004/01/29/329063-ap.html - 30k - Cached - Similar 
pages 
  
Vogue Stories
American Idol finalist Fantasia Barrino in her "Club Sandwiches, Not
Seals" T-shirt ? WireImage. SEAL OF DISAPPROVAL. AMERICAN IDOL ... 
www.vogue.co.uk/vogue_daily/story/story.asp?stid=17752 - 21k - Cached - 
Similar pages 

  
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Clubbing was Living with ceri was Who should die?
Club sandwiches not seals. ROFLMAO!!!! I want one...I want one!! ceri
~who glanced at the clock and is late for work...opps! Wonder ... 
alt.books.poppy-z-brite - Jan 31, 1997 by Just ceri - View Thread (1 article)
  
Re: Living with ceri was Who should die?
... i thought you were seeking help about that.... That reminds me of 
something....
Today I saw a guy wearing a shirt that said Club sandwiches not seals. ... 
alt.books.poppy-z-brite - Jan 30, 1997 by Ephebe - View Thread (14 articles)
  
Re: Physical Memory Addresses
... DPMI) interface call. -- Neil Jarvis, Proteon International R&D, York,
UK. (Neil.Jarvis at proteon.com) -- Club sandwiches, not seals! 
comp.os.msdos.djgpp - Sep 18, 1996 by Neil Jarvis - View Thread (9 articles)
  
Re: Orphaned Response - (nf)
#R:dartvax:-61900:inmet:6400085:177600:30 inmet!andrew
Jan 22 19:03:00 1984 Club sandwiches, not wombats! 
net.misc - Jan 24, 1984 by andrew at inmet.UUCP - View Thread (26 articles)
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CLUB SANDWICHES
  
   Here's a "club sandwich"--not "clubhouse sandwich"--in 1894.
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 Bucks County Gazette   Thursday, December 27, 1894 Bristol, Pennsylvania   
...sales of home manufactures and less CLUB SANDWICHES, These are very for..
Pg. 2, col. 3:
   Club Sandwiches.--These are very tasty for after-theatre suppers, and are 
made of very thin white bread and butter, with the cold white meat of chicken, 
salted and peppered and laid on a leaf of lettuce, between the bread.  Again, 
chopped green peppers or capers may be sprinkled over the chicken when the 
lettuce is omitted.
    
   Trenton Evening Times    Monday, April 26, 1897 Trenton, New Jersey      
...refreshments could not be served with CLUB SANDWICHES. It seems that the 
board.....thanks to th Fin, For add Feather CLUB, who har gent quite a number 
of..
    
   Woodland Daily Democrat  Thursday, May 18, 1893 Woodland, California     
...1 of Cosmos CLUB salad, Bohemian CLUB SANDWICHES, chicken SANDWICHES..   


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Jun 12 06:17:54 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 02:17:54 -0400
Subject: Antedating "Bring home the bacon"-1906/1907
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.021754.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED cites PG Wodehouse in 1924.  HDAS cites 1909 T.A. Dorgan. 

The phrase seems to have been popularized, if not invented, by the mother of African-American boxer Joe Gans.  Gans, lightweight champion of Baltimore, MD. fought "Battling" Nelson in Sept. of 1906 in Goldfield, NV.  Before the fight, telegrams were read aloud to the fighters and others.

One of the telegrams was from Gans' mother and said "Joe, the eyes of the world are on you.  Everybody says you ought to win.  Peter Jackson will tell me the news and you bring back the bacon."  (3 Sept. 1906 _Reno Evening Gazette_  1/6) .  Gans won the fight in 42 rounds.  

On Jan.1, 1907 Gans again fought in Nevada, this time KOing Kid Herman in 8 rounds.  In The New York Times for 1 Jan, 1907, pg 10 there appeared this snippet:

<<Baltimore, MD., Dec. 31.--A Christmas present in the shape of a check for $6,000 from her son, "Joe" Gans, the pugilist, was the agreeable surprise of Mrs. Gans to-day.  Accompanying the check was a letter of well wishes.  To-night Mrs. Gans sent her son this telegram in Tonopah, Nev.:
  "Thanks; keep stepping, Joe."
   When Gans fought Nelson at Goldfield, Mrs. Gans told him by wire to "bring home the bacon,:" and when the victory had been won "Joe" told his mother by wire that he had not only the bacon, but the gravy.>>

In the 2 Jan. 1907 Washington Post  8/5 there appear "Short Fight Notes" with a dateline of Jan 1,  one of which is

<<Much merriment was created by the announcer stating that Gans' mother sent him a telegram requesting him "to bring home the bacon."  Before he had a chance to read a telegram some one in the crowd yelled:  "Does it say, 'Bring home the Matzos?' " >>

During the course of the rest of 1907 the phrase "bring home the bacon" appeared in tens of news stories, always on the sports pages, but used in baseball, boxing, horse racing, football and rugby.

One assumes that if there were truth to the theory about catching greased pigs at fairs,  the phrase might have turned up once or twice in use before 1906/7.

Sam Clements


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 12 10:52:40 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 06:52:40 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Safire and OED on "Slam Dunk"
In-Reply-To: <001f01c45044$ffe0b050$0724a618@sam>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.065240.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In tomorrow's "On Language" column in the N.Y. Times, William Safire cites
the OED's 1976 first use for the term "slam dunk."  Here's earlier from
Newspaperarchive:

1971 _Kennebec Journal_ 14 Jan. 12  West's 20-foot jumper, only his second
field goal of the game, and Alcindor's slam dunk over Baltimore's West
Unself gave the West a 102-101 lead with 3 1 2 minutes to go.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From preston at MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 12 11:31:36 2004
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 07:31:36 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Safire and OED on "Slam Dunk"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0406120648500.21015-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.073136.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Could "West Unself" be "Wes Unseld" in disguise?

dInIs



>In tomorrow's "On Language" column in the N.Y. Times, William Safire cites
>the OED's 1976 first use for the term "slam dunk."  Here's earlier from
>Newspaperarchive:
>
>1971 _Kennebec Journal_ 14 Jan. 12  West's 20-foot jumper, only his second
>field goal of the game, and Alcindor's slam dunk over Baltimore's West
>Unself gave the West a 102-101 lead with 3 1 2 minutes to go.
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
>Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
>Yale Law School                             forthcoming
>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 12 11:36:09 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 07:36:09 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Safire and OED on "Slam Dunk"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0406120648500.21015-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.073609.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Fred Shapiro wrote:

> Unself gave the West a 102-101 lead with 3 1 2 minutes to go.

I meant, of course, to type "Unseld."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From preston at MSU.EDU  Sat Jun 12 12:41:11 2004
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 08:41:11 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Safire and OED on "Slam Dunk"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0406120735280.24196-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.084111.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>And 'Wes' too I presume?




>On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>
>>  Unself gave the West a 102-101 lead with 3 1 2 minutes to go.
>
>I meant, of course, to type "Unseld."
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
>Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
>Yale Law School                             forthcoming
>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 12 13:38:53 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 09:38:53 EDT
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.093853.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:45:15 -0500,    Gerald Cohen
<gcohen at UMR.EDU> asks:

>  A colleague has asked me about the meaning of "A high tuck-a-haw" in
>  the lyrics of the song "Turkey in the Straw."  Would anyone know?
>  The relevant verse is:
>
>          Turkey in the straw,
>          Turkey in the straw,
>          Roll 'em up and twist 'em up
>          A high tuck a-haw
>          And hit 'em up a tune called
>          Turkey in the Straw.
>
>  Also, what does "Roll 'em up and twist 'em up" refer to?

I vaguely recall the line as "And high tuck a-haw" which, if correct, means
that "tuck a-haw" might not be a noun phrase.  I suspect however that it is
simply a nonsence line added to create a rhyme for "straw".

Also I recall the first two lines as "Turkey in the straw/Turkey in the hay".
 Whether or not hay is involved, "roll 'em up etc." could refer to collecting
straws into whatever farmers of that age used to put straw into piles or
rolls or whatever.

          - Jim Landau


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 12 13:41:40 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 09:41:40 EDT
Subject: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.094140.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated  Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:08:23 -0400,  Page Stephens
<hpst at EARTHLINK.NET> writes:
>
>  It is difficult to generalize about all of the different pronunciations in
>  British English dialects but one which intrigues me is the way that an
>  English friend and I differ in the consonants we do or do not pronounce.
>
>  He always pronounces the h in herbs

Does he also pronounce the "h" in "heirloom"?

           - Jim Landau


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 12 14:30:33 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:30:33 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Safire and OED on "Slam Dunk"
In-Reply-To: <a06020400bcf099e8fda9@[192.168.1.3]>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.103033.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> Could "West Unself" be "Wes Unseld" in disguise?

The original said "West Unseld," actually.  I'm not sure where the "t" in
"West" came from.

Fred


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 12 18:17:09 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 14:17:09 EDT
Subject: Slam Dunk (Safire said 1976?); OT: David Shulman,
 NYPL to get my home
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.141709.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In tomorrow's "On Language" column in the N.Y. Times, William Safire cites 
the OED's 1976 first use for the term "slam dunk."  Here's earlier from 
Newspaperarchive:
  
1971 _Kennebec Journal_ 14 Jan. 12  West's 20-foot jumper, only his second 
field goal of the game, and Alcindor's slam dunk over Baltimore's West Unself 
gave the West a 102-101 lead with 3 1 2 minutes to go.
  
Fred Shapiro
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------    
   No one remembers what I'd posted on ADS-L?  No one?  
   I had planned to re-check "slam dunk" and "point guard" and a few other 
terms when the LOS ANGELES TIMES digitization (now at March 1964) advances to 
this time period.
   It's the NEW YORK TIMES and it's Safire and I'm banned from correcting him 
every week, so that's how it goes.  Yeesh, what a life.
   On 6 August 2002, I posted this (ADS-L archives):
  
The Associated PressMonday, August 5, 2002; 10:22 PM LOS ANGELES ?????? 
Play-by-play announcer Chick Hearn, who made phrases like "slam dunk" and "air 
ball" common basketball expressions during his 42-year career with the Los 
Angeles Lakers, died Monday. He was 85."Chick Hearn passed away at 6:30 this 
evening," Los Angeles Lakers spokesman Bob Steiner told a hushed news conference 
outside Northridge Medical Center Hospital, where Hearn was taken Friday night 
after suffering a fall.Hearn fell Friday in the back yard of the Encino home he 
shared with wife, Marge. The two would have celebrated their 64th wedding 
anniversary on Aug. 13.Surgeons operated twice on Saturday to relieve swelling in 
his brain, but he never regained consciousness.Whether Hearn was the most 
famous Laker of them all can be debated, but his career with the team was far 
longer than such standouts as Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic 
Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Jamaal Wilkes, James Worthy and Michael Cooper.And 
he was calling games long before current stars Shaquille O'Neal and Kobe 
Bryant were born.Hearn called a record 3,338 consecutive Lakers games starting in 
1965 before missing one because he had to have an operation in December 2001 
for a blocked aortic valve.While recovering, he fell and broke his hip.Hearn 
returned to work April 9 and broadcast the Lakers' playoff run to their third 
consecutive NBA championship.He called his first Lakers game in March 1961. His 
last game was June 12 when the Lakers beat the New Jersey Nets 113-107 in East 
Rutherford, N.J., to complete a sweep of the NBA Finals and earn their ninth 
title since moving from Minneapolis in 1960.During the finals, he told The 
Associated Press he was getting stronger every day and planned to work at least 
one more season. And he said he believed his call of the Lakers' Game 7 victory 
over Sacramento in the Western Conference finals might have been as good as 
any in his career.As recently as last week, he drove to Las Vegas with his wife 
to speak at a fantasy basketball camp.Born Francis Dayle Hearn on Nov. 27, 
1916, in Aurora, Ill., Hearn peppered his rapid-fire delivery with terms like 
"no harm, no foul," "the mustard's off the hot dog," "ticky-tack foul," and 
"faked him into the popcorn machine."Whenever he believed a Lakers victory was 
clinched, Hearn would say: "You can put this onein the refrigerator. The door's 
closed, the light's out, the eggs are cooling, the butter's getting hard and 
the Jell-O is jiggling."
    
  
    A few weeks later in August 2002, I'd posted this:
  
  
AIR BALL
   28 March 1976, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 165:
   "One time I even shot an air ball; that's how slippery the ball was."
(There is also a 1975 basketball hit, but I couldn't spot the "air ball" in 
it in my quick reading.  The first hit here and the next one in 1977 come from 
college basketball, not the Los Angeles Lakers--ed.)
 
SLAM DUNK
   7 December 1972, NEW YORK TIMES, pg. 108 ad for SPORTS ILLUSTRATED:
   "...Julius Erving, he of the reverse slam dunks."(That's how I remember 
it.  Julius Erving, of the ABA Virginia Squires    
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
OT: DAVID SHULMAN, NYPL TO GET MY HOME
  
DAVID SHULMAN--He had trouble breathing and he just entered the hospital 
again.  This is what I do when I'm not doing parking tickets.  It's a wonderful 
life.
  
NYPL TO GET MY HOME--For only the past ten years or so, I've been trying to 
get the NYPL's Research Library to correct an outdated web page on "the Big 
Apple," and the Chicago Public Library to correct an outdated web page on "the 
Windy City."  In a normal world, these corrections would be done in five 
minutes.  In the real world, you beg for ten years and no one listens to you.
   When I "Big Apple Corner" was made law in 1997 and both of my parents died 
that year, I approached the NYPL twice to donate money and to correct the web 
site on "the Big Apple," adding the historic materials at last to the web, 
where people can see them.  No one responded.  Last month, I received a form 
response--after seven years--that the NYPL just "couldn't do it."  Even for free? 
 Yes, they can't do it even if it would cost the NYPL nothing.  There was 
still no response on correcting its outdated web page, which had just fooled 
Google Answers.
   I asked the NYPL to take my home, forcing me to leave New York and 
formally ending the 12-year "torture a scholar" program.  There are only two 
requirements: (1) That the NYPL never honor me or the memory of my mother or father, 
and (2) that the NYPL never acknowledge any of my work, on "the Big Apple" or 
anything else.
   Yesterday, I got a response from an NYPL ("the People's University") 
attorney.
   The NYPL will agree to take my home.


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Jun 12 22:59:29 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 18:59:29 -0400
Subject: antedating of "quarter horse" 1828
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.185929.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

M-W has 1834, OED 1839

12 August, 1828.  2/4

<<At the mention of the certificate, the Doctor, in a hurried tone of voice, said, "I'll have nothing to do with it," & broke ground like a quarter horse, hallooing murder!>>

Sam Clements


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Jun 12 23:07:22 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 19:07:22 -0400
Subject: antedating of "quarter horse" 1828
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.190722.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What is the bibliographic information.  Or, did I miss it?


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun 13 00:04:22 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 20:04:22 -0400
Subject: antedating of "quarter horse" 1828
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.200422.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No, I missed it.

It was from the (Wilmington) _DelawarePatriot and American Watchman_.

Sorry about that.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Barnhart" <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: antedating of "quarter horse" 1828


> What is the bibliographic information.  Or, did I miss it?
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Jun 13 02:16:59 2004
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Gerald Cohen)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 21:16:59 -0500
Subject: Barry Popik, NYPL, "The Big Apple"
Message-ID: <SAT.12.JUN.2004.211659.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

    I'm troubled by Barry's message today about his frustrations in
dealing with the NYPL concerning its website's treatment of The Big
Apple. Barry is one of the most extraordinary lexical researchers
ever. He has already made important contributions to "The Big Apple",
"Windy City", "hot dog", "dude", the "show-me" expression, "yegg"
hashhouse lingo, etc. I count 76 items of his in my informal
bibliography of Comments on Etymology, and that's without the past
academic-year's issues.

    He is probably the world's foremost expert on food terminology.
His ads-l messages waiting to be developed into articles is
staggering. I co-authored the latest volume of _Studies in Slang_
with him. I'm currently preparing a book on "hot dog" which will
include much of the information he has sent me about it and which
will include him and David Shulman as authors. Next summer (2005), if
all goes according to plan, I'll prepare a 2nd edition of my "Big
Apple" monograph and have Barry listed as co-author; the new material
he discovered (which I have already published in article form with
due credit) is extraordinary and nails down John J. Fitz Gerald's
role in popularizing "the big apple" (NYC racetracks; later NYC as a
whole). The NY Historical Society is already persuaded by Barry's
work (I was able to communicate directly with a staff member there).

    Barry was the subject of a wonderful article in the Wall Street
Journal a few years ago. Gersh Kuntzman (NY Post) has written several
articles about him.
Several years ago I sent Dear Abby a letter about the origin of "The Big Apple"
(a reader had inquired about this), and I gave credit to Barry for
his work on this topic. The letter was published.

    William Safire has twice mentioned Barry in his widely read "On
Language" column, and I now thank Mr. Safire and his assistants for
providing Barry
with the favorable publicity that such mentions bring.

     So what has happened now? A few people in charge of the NYPL
research website decide to ignore Barry's messages about "The Big
Apple." Ditto for Chicago and "The Windy City." B-I-I-IG DEAL! For
this Barry's going to develop an ulcer and  somehow talk himself into
giving his apartment away? Barry, you have the respect of all who
count in this line of research--the academic and independent
scholars, the lexicographers, and the other ads-l members who have
ten times more appreciation for outstanding lexical research than the
NYPL website people will ever have.

     In any case, once the 2nd edition of "The Big Apple" book
appears, I'll make a determined effort to publicize it, and my guess
is that both the NYPL and Google people will be persuaded. Your "big
apple" research is in article form, and when it's incorporated into a
book, it can be drawn to public attention on the Internet more
effectively. This will all happen in the fullness of time. As the
Germans say, Geduld bringt Rosen.

Best. --- Jerry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 13 04:17:06 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 00:17:06 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Safire and OED on "Slam Dunk"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0406121029210.6183-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.001706.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:30 AM -0400 6/12/04, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>>  Could "West Unself" be "Wes Unseld" in disguise?
>
>The original said "West Unseld," actually.  I'm not sure where the "t" in
>"West" came from.
>
>Fred
>
It came via assimilation from the res(t) of the sentence:

==============
1971 _Kennebec Journal_ 14 Jan. 12  West's 20-foot jumper, only his second
field goal of the game, and Alcindor's slam dunk over Baltimore's West Unself
gave the West a 102-101 lead with 3 1 2 minutes to go.
==============
The context appears to have been the annual NBA all-star game between
the West(ern Conference), including Jerry West of the L.A. Lakers and
Lew Alcindor (of the Milwaukee Bucks at the time, later Kareem Abdul
Jabbar of the Lakers), and the East(ern Conference), including Wes
Unseld of the Washington Bullets.   The Kennebec Journal just
assimilated poor Wes Unseld to all those  Wests.

Larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 13 05:44:26 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 01:44:26 -0400
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
In-Reply-To: <p04310101bcefd8048084@[131.151.65.21]>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.014426.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

AA colleague has asked me about the meaning of "A high tuck-a-haw" in
>the lyrics of the song "Turkey in the Straw."  Would anyone know?

Not me, but I can speculate. I believe it is nonsense, either simply a
nonsense syllable-string or a nonsense use of a variant of the word "tuckahoe".

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 13 05:58:05 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 01:58:05 -0400
Subject: Tonkatsu (1963); Kobe & Matsuzaka beef, Genghis Khan BBQ (1962)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.015805.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TONKATSU--9,790 Google hits, 1,120 Google Groups hits
NOREN + JAPANESE--6,030 Google hits, 292 Google Groups hits
("Tonkatsu" is not in the OED.  "Noren" didn't make even the revised OED.)


  I found a little gem of a book from 1962 here at the NYU Bobst Library.  I thought I saw "tonkatsu," but I'm running out of time for this library's 2 a.m. closing.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)("tonkatsu")
   1. Chinese Food a Specialty
By Isao Kadota. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington, D.C.: May 26, 1963. p. K23 (1 page):
   Apart from _raisukare_, the most typical Japanized foreign dish is probably _tonkatsu_--which could be described on the menu of a pretentious restaurant as "Pork Cutlet a la Japonaise" and which is popular among foreigners visiting Japan.  The word _ton_ means pork, while _katsu_ is an abbreviation of cutlet.  But the _tonkatsu_ is a very Japanese form of pork cutlet.
   Most _tonkatsu_ restaurants have a typically Japanese appearance (unlike those serving genuinely foreign food, which try to look as un-Japanese as possible).  Quite a few of them hang _noren_--the slit curtain hung over the doorways of Japanese restaurants--at their entrances.
   Tenderloin of pork is used for _tonkatsu_ and is normally sliced very thick.  The sinews are removed, the meat is sprinkled with salt and pepper, dipped into a batter of flour and beaten egg and then covered with bread crumbs.  The final stage is to deep-fry it in vegetable oil.  WHen eating _tonkatsu_, most Japanese flavor it with Japanese Worcestershire sauce (sweeter than the Western variety), gravy sauce, or Japanese soy sauce.  Usually, it is accompanied with finely-sliced cabbage.  It is fascinating to watch an expert cook slice the cabbage with amazing skill and speed.

   2. A Japanese Version of Swiss Fondue Is Okonomiyaki, or What--You--Will
By CRAIG CLAIBORNE Special to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 17, 1966. p. 45 (1 page)



OLSON'S ORIENT GUIDE
by Harvey S. Olsen
Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott Company
1962

Pg. 227 (-330):  CHAPTER 5  _On Dining Out in the Orient_

Pg. 230:  By nature I am a gourmet and relish every conceivable type of food from the simplest hot dog and humblest hamburger to glamorous _duck a l'orange_, _Fettuccine Alfredo_, _crepes Grand Vefour_, _sole Belle Meuniere_, Hungarian beef goulash, veal stroganoff, smorgasbord _a la Viking_, _Kobe and Matsuzaka beef_, tempura, sukiyaki, and the appetite-arousing Chinese specialties, particularly the Cantonese variety.

Pg. 231 (HAWAII, Royal Hawaiian Hotel Monarch Room):  Every night except Sunday and Monday, the famous _Kamaaina_ dinner is served, which is a six-course repast featuring green turtle soup, breast of _Kahunakaku chicken_, _Liliuokalani salad_, pineapple delight, and other native specialties.

Pg. 232 (HAWAII, Canlis' Charcoal Broiler):  The "original" _Canlis'_ Idaho baked potato served with gobs of butter, parmesan cheese, green onions, and minced bacon is extraordinarily good.

Pg. 234 (HAWAII, "The Luau"):  Other components usually included are _lomi lomi_ salmon, hand massaged local fish mixed with fresh tomatoes and onions, the _moa_, _chicken luau_, mixed with (Pg. 235--ed.) Hawaiian spinach and/or taro tops, and coconut cream served in fresh coconuts. (...)  The _limu_, dried seaweed, is a seasoning.  To all of this you add the _halakahika_, the luau-style pineapple, the baked bananas (_plantains_), banana muffins, and coconut cake.  These are all generously laced with Polynesian rum punch.

Pg. 236 (HONG KONG):  CANTONESE...PEKING (_Peiping_ or _Northern_)...

Pg. 237 (HONG KONG):  SZECHUAN...SHANGHAI...

Pg. 238 (HONG KONG): ..._Shanghai_ style--the so-called _"Beggar's Chicken"_--to name but a few.

Pg. 241 (HONG KONG, Princess Garden Restaurant):  The local CHinese wine, _shiao shing_, will remind you of _sake_, which the Chinese claim is a derivative of their own.

Pg. 245 (JAPAN, "Japanese Specialties"):  SUKIYAKI...

Pg. 246 (JAPAN):  TEMPURA...

Pg. 247 (JAPAN):  KOBE AN MATSUZAKA BEEF.  The Japanese are extraordinarily proud of these two succulent, tender beef specialties of the country which are reputed to be the finest meats in all the world.  Certainly one would have to travel far and wide to find anything more superlative.  There are several unusual qualities to these two types of beef, the first of which is that with labor being so peuriously inexpensive, carefully trained men can, and do, work amazingly tedious hours at massaging the beef cows twice a day in such a way as to inhibit hard muscles from forming.  In this manner, plus the fact that they are also kept in pens to keep them from getting muscular, the meat is kept tender even while on the hoof.  The second feature is that the cows are slaughtered prior to having wasted any of their strength on reproductive activities.  Last, but not least, the cows are fed great quantities of beer daily except Saturdays and Sundays.  Most unusual.  But the results are taste titillating.
(Again, the OED does not have "Kobe" and the revised OED does not have "Matsuzaka."  Awful--ed.)
   MAMMOTH JAPANESE STRAWBERRIES.

Pg. 248 (JAPAN):  YAKITORI RESTAURANTS.

Pg. 249 (JAPAN):  Remember this: _Nagoya chicken_ is to the bird what _Kobe beef_ is to the cow.
   BATAYAKI is a first cousin to sukiyaki, the only notable exception being that _batayaki_ is prepared in a sauce less pungent than that used for sukiyaki.  The _batayaki_ variety is also of a soybean base but mixed liberally with butter; hence the name _"bata,"_ the Japanese pronunciation of our "butter."  The Japanese prefer grated radishes as a base for eating _batayaki_.  (...)
   OKARIBAYAKI is less well known but typically Japanese.  It is comprised of finely sliced wild game and adorned with chrysanthemum leaves, sprouts, and vegetables, all prepared in a special _okaribayaki_ grill.  (...)  This latter serves a bubbling hot, utterly delectable hunter's dish, the _kamonabe_: duck chunks and vegetables served together with hot noodles in a marvelous and piquant sauce.
   SUSHI RESTAURANTS.

Pg. 250 (JAPAN):  KABAYAKI RESTAURANTS.  (...)  TORI NO MIZUTAKI RESTAURANTS.

Pg. 255 (JAPAN):  TOKYO COFFEE BARS.

Pg. 257 (JAPAN):  When the _jochu-san_ (Japanese kimono'd waitress) ties your husband's shoe laces upon your departure, he'll be spoiled for life.

Pg. 260 (JAPAN, Chinzanso, Avenue M near 15th):  The specialty of the house is Genghis Khan barbecued beef and chicken which consists of grilled meats and fowl, and vegetables served for four or more persons who are seated at the table around a brazier.

Pg. 268: (JAPAN, OSAKA, Alaska):  Kobe sirloin steak from beer-fed, hand-massaged beef.

Pg. 268 (JAPAN, OSAKA, Hotel Osaka Grand):  The _Maple Room_, second floor, features Japanese food exclusively including tempura, sukiyaki, _kabayaki_, and the "house specialties," the _teishoku_ (full "menu of the day") dinners.

Pg. 274 (TAIWAN):  The MONGOLIAN BARBECUE, a colorful Chinese concoction from the Northlands, offers a generous feast, prepared with great flourish, and known, alternatively, as a Genghis Khan barbecue.  The Mongolian barbecue brazier is more vigorous than the regular charcoal grill, shooting its searing flames skyward in a brillian display.  The groaning hors d'oeuvres tables are generously decorated with platters of spicy, marinated raw beef, venison, wild boar, mutton, and heaping mounds of green uncooked vegetables.  The diner makes his choice of the uncooked victuals, selects his all-important sauces and seasoning, and passes to the end of the table where he hands his choices to a clever chef presiding over the charcoal-filled broilers.  The seething flames, the sizzling meats, and the spitting oils present an unusual sensory experience.  When cooked, the Mongolian feast is something extraspecial for your chopsticks.  As when coping with Swedish smorgasbord, you are expected to go back to the Mongolian grill again and again.  Try rice wine with the Mongolian barbecue.  It is taste stimulating and, while it seems weak, has a high degree of potency.
   The CANTONESE BREAKFAST is delicious, consisting of hot or cold Cantonese pork sausage, steamed dumplings filled with mincemeat, ground pork or beef, steamed gingerbread, watermelon, and sometimes a clear chicken soup or broth, and always tea...tea...tea.
   Do-it-yourself gourmets will automatically approve and swear by the SHANSI RESTAURANT on Chung Cheng Road, where the feast is _Huo Kuo_, a chafing dish, which literally means "Hot Pot."  The meal begins with a variety of "appetizers" including cold pickles, fish, and fried shredded chicken with slivers of cold boiled ham, chicken, and beef with sliced cucumbers, which are meant to whet the appetite.
  Each guest for the "Fiery Pot" is next given his own bowl for mixing the dipping sauce to his own taste.  In it will go a  (Pg. 275--ed.) choice of raww egg, bean paste, vinegar, ginger juice, sesame seed, soy sauce, shrimp oil, hot sauce, and/or onions.  Any and all of the foregoing are combined to create a tangy dressing for the meats, a portion of which is cooked with the meal and part of which is used, uncooked, as a condiment.  The "Fiery pot," placed in the middle of the table over the glowing charcoal coals, exudes an aromatic, appetite stimulating aroma from the cooking beef, pork, lamb, and sometimes game, such as venison, when in season.
   The GIRLIE RESTAURANT is a unique specialty of _Taiwan_.

Pg. 277 (TAIWAN):  WINE RESTAURANTS.

Pg. 278 (THAILAND):  Thai rice is served fried, boiled, in (Pg. 279--ed.) soup, as a stuffing, and frequently as a hot side dish with green onion shavings, sliced cucumbers, soy sauce, and grated chili peppers.  In savoring a full dinner, a Thai family normally will start with soup and will then have fish, vegetables, and a good selection of meat curries, consumed with rice.  A favorite Thai soup prepared on a charcoal brazier is _Gang Tom Yam_ which includes leaves of the makroot, lemon grass, watercress, prawns, chicken, fish, and _pri-kee-noo_ peppers.
   _Haw Mok_, a flaming hot Thai specialty, is made by pounding dry chili peppers, shrimp paste, lemon grass, onions, garlic and salt, and blending them with steamed coconut milk and soy sauce decorated with egg and slices of raw fish.  It is served in a large banana leaf.
   The hot Thai curry _Gang Pet_ includes beef, pork, shellfish, coconut milk, chili peppers, ginger, caraway seeds, the paste of lemon grass, garlic, mashed shrimps, lots of pepper, and wild rice.  The Thais are particularly fond of their desserts, particularly concoctions of sweets made from milk, sugar, coconut, and rice.  Favorite Thai dishes to top off a meal are: _Salim_, made of thin strips of egg noodles in sugary coconut milk, and _Songakaya_, a cocnut milk pudding, served both hot and cold, made from both the whites and yolks of eggs, palm sugar, sticky rice, mangoes, and other fresh fruit.

Pg. 293 (TOKYO restaurants, Akahane):  ...that grand Japanese specialty, the _yama dori_ (mountain chicken).

GOTTA GO!--ed.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 13 09:04:29 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 05:04:29 EDT
Subject: Ton-katsu, Pulgogi, Meehoon (1962)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.050429.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

BULGOGI + KOREAN--6,340 Google hits, 1.060 Google Groups hits
PULGOGI + KOREAN--738 Google hits, 68 Google Groups hits
MEEHOON--8,340 Google hits, 57 Google Groups hits
MEE HOON--11,700 Google hits, 932 Google Groups hits
(Neither "Bulgogi" nor "Pulgogi" is in OED.  Neither "Meehoon" nor "Mee Hoon"
is in the revised OED.)

   I ran out of time at 2 a.m. and the NYU computers automatically shut off,
but I quickly photocopied a few of the remaining pages of the book.
"Tonkatsu" and "pulgogi" and "meehoon" were there.
   Just a great book find.


OLSON'S ORIENT GUIDE
by Harvey S. Olsen
Philadelphia: J. B. Lippincott Company
1962

Pg. 300 (JAPAN, TOKYO, Seiko-en):  Korean food at its very best.  Try
_pulgogi_, the Korean barbecue of beef strips, cooked in ginger-soy-_sake_ sauce.

Pg. 302 (JAPAN, TOKYO, Zakuro):  Beef at its best in sukiyaki and many
Japanese _teishoku_ (table specialties) such as _sashimi_ (raw fish), _domburi_
(bowlfuls of rice mixed with eggs, chicken, vegetables, seafood, and eels),
_ton-katsu_ (Japanese style pork cutlets), _suimono_ (clear soups), _miso-shiru_
(bean-paste soup) and _momo yaki_ (charcoal broiled chicken thighs).

Pg. 314 (MACAO):  POUSADA DE MACAO.  The specialty of the chef is an aromatic
concoction known as _Chicken Africana_.  This is tender barbecued chicken
served with a mysterious sauce of limitless ingredients and accompanied by crusty
hot rolls called "_casquieros_"--all of which makes for a delicious meal.

Pg. 314:  _FEDERATION OF MALAYA_
(...)  Typical native dishes are:
   CHICKEN IN THE COCONUT, a thick, spiced soup uniquely served in the same
coconut in which the chopped chicken has been brewed for seemingly endless
hours.
   FISH and CHICKEN cooked with sweet or sour sauce similar to, but different
from, the normal Chinese variety.
   MAHMEE or MEEHOON, a Chinese style Malay spaghetti.

Pg. 315:
   NASI BERIANI, an Indian dish of chicken or mutton with a base of tumeric
rice.
   SAMBALS is the collective name for the half dozen or more side dishes
served with a Malayan meal.
   SATAY, comprised of a variety of meats and chicken grilled over charcoal
on bamboo sticks, served with chili-peanut sauce, eaten directly off the skewer
either at a _Satay_ stall or restaurant.
   STUFFED LOBSTER.  Super-duper.
       Fruits:
   LANGSAT, sour-sweet and juicy.
   MANGOSTEEN, which is delectable, watermelon, papayas, and bananas.
   RAMBUTAN, which is sweet.

Pg. 316 (PHILIPPINES):
   ADOBO, an agglomeration of chicken and pork, might be worth trying.
   ALEMANGO, a "fruit of the sea," is a delicate stewed crab.
   BAKERY SPECIALTIES are mouth-watering and unusual.  They include: PAN DE
SAL, which comes in tiny, delicately crusted, salted loaves; CUCHINTA and PUTO,
two types of tasty, sweet, steamed rice bread; and ENSAIMADAS, a Filipino
(Pg. 317--ed.) version of sweet roll, garnished with Spanish sausage (_chorizo_)
and/or grated cheese.
   BALUT has to be seen , or eaten, to be believed.  It is hot _boiled duck's
egg_ served complete (ugh) with embryo.  Usually sold in the markets and on
the streets,  "_Balut sa puti_" means the embryo will be immature and (almost)
palatable.  I personally believe this is a dish strictly for the natives.
   Tree-ripened, sun-drenched FRUIT is available in profusion, including
pineapples, cantaloupes, coconuts, bananas, star apples, mangoes, calimancis,
papayas and watermelons.
   LECHON is as native to The Philippines as hamburger is to us.  It is
universally served on all festive occasions.  This drawn baby pig is stuffed with
tamarind leaves of papaya, roasted over red-hot coals, and served with a choice
of tangy sauces (spicy liver sauce is preferred by the natives).
   LUMPIA is delectable.  its ingredients consist of pork, vegetables,
shredded coconut pith, and shrimp enveloped in wafer-thin pancakes.  Served with its
own tasty sauce.
   MERIENDA is Filipino for afternoon tea, which can assume the proportions
of a buffet dinner.
   PANCIT (GUISADO) is composed of noodles garnished with pork, chicken, or
seafood.
   PANCIT (MALABON) is similar but with spices added--good and served most
everywhere.
   PANUT MOLO, a native soup of obscure origin, is wonderful.
   SALTED DUCK'S EGGS served piping hot are unusually good.  For eye appeal
they are painted red, and for taste they are grated and mized with onions,
lettuce, tomatoes, and chipped smoked dried fish.
   SINIGANG is an elaborate production of stew-like pork or fish.
   SUGPO, a dish of steamed shrimps, is one you'll fancy if you are a devotee
of seafood.
   TUBA is to the Filipinos what akvavit is to the Scandinavians, (Pg.
318--ed.) vodka to the Russians, and moonshine whisky to our own hillbillies.  Wow!
A drink of sledgehammer ferocity.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 13 10:52:35 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 06:52:35 EDT
Subject: Cabinet, Concrete, Frosted, Velvet; Pot Stickers; Pre Fix
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.065235.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CABINET, CONCRETE, FROSTED, VELVET

(ADS-L) (6 August 2001)
The earliest evidence we have is the following citation:

They're called
Frappes         Velvets
Frosted          Cabinets

[Text accompanying illustration on a poster advertising Hood's Ice
Cream (observed in Hancock Pharmacy, State and Hancock Sts.,
Springfield, Mass., Dpetember 30, 1952).]

Joanne Despres
Merriam-Webster


(ADS-L)
Item #25432 (2 Sep 2002 19:43) - Roadfood (2002) and food regionalisms
(LONG!)
Pg. 319 (Ted Drewes, St. Louis, MO): The best-known dish in the house is
called a concrete, which is a milk shake so thick that the server hands it
out the order window upside down, demonstrating that not a drop will drip


   I thought I'd take another look at cabinet/concrete/frosted/velvet, using
the new databases on these regional terms.


(FACTIVA) ("concrete" + "shakes")
Hometown ice creams a homemade delight
NANCY GORDON
780 words
6 July 1994
The Pantagraph Bloomington, IL
FINAL
D1
(...)
At the Double Nickel, owners Don and Nancy Geiselman of Bloomington, formerly
of El Paso, say their frozen custard is a "true '50s nostalgia product."

In the food and ice cream business for 25 years, the Geiselmans opened the
1950s-theme drive-in at the corner of Morrissey Drive and Veterans Parkway on
Bloomington's south side six years ago.

Besides serving Double Nickel burgers, lunches and dinners, the restaurant
makes its version of 1950s-style homemade ice cream fresh every day. Vanilla
flavor is always available. The "special" flavors, which change every two or
three days, include such embellishments as English Toffee, Chocolate Peanut Butter
Chocolate (Elvis' favorite), Caramel Cashew, Raspberry, Cherry Amaretto,
Mocha Chip, Bailey's Irish Cream Coffee and dozens of others.

The frozen custard is made in 3- or 4-gallon batches several times a day,
Geiselman said. A "custard forecast" is announced each month so patrons can be
sure to be on hand to enjoy their favorite flavors. A newsletter, the Double
Nickel Scoop, reminds patrons to call The Pantagraph's CITYLINE, 829-9000, ext.
5500, to discover the day's feature flavor.

The custard also is used in the restaurant's unique "Concrete Shakes," a
thick custard milk shake with added delights such as cookies and cream, peanut
butter, hot caramel and lots of other goodies.

Geiselman said the custard, a 10 percent butterfat product developed in the
Coney Island area in 1919, is a unique product - a smooth, rich,
nearly-like-homemade ice cream, for which sales have seen a steady growth every year.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   CITYSIDE with GENE SHERMAN
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 7, 1954. p. 2
(1 page):
   What do you call the soda-fountain drink made by dumping an order or ice
cream in a milk shake?  In different part of the country, it's called a
frosted, a frappe, a velvet and a cabinet.  Don't rightly know what it's called here,
as I am a malted milk man myself.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("frosted")
   Denton Journal  Friday, February 19, 1937 Denton, Maryland
...makes two medium-sized drinks.) For a "FROSTED" SHAKE, add a dash of
your.....the kids' vote goes to banana milk SHAKE, shown in Inset. "ALL that..
(Top of the page has February 19, 1938--ed.)
Pg. 2?, col. 4:  For a "frosted" shake, add a dash of your favorite ice
cream.

  Mansfield News  Monday, August 21, 1939 Mansfield, Ohio
...ICE. Add CREAM, sugar AND half the ICE CREAM. SHAKE or stir until coffee
AND.....when the menu forecast is tonight. A FROSTED beverage, in the
vernacular, is..
Pg. 7, col. 6:  A frosted beverage, in the vernacular, is something good to
which ice cream has been added.  Example par excellence is frosted coffee--that
hot, tasty beverage made chilly with ice and frosty with ice cream.

  Salisbury Times  Thursday, July 16, 1953 Salisbury, Maryland
...jar AND SHAKE well. For FROSTED SHAKE AND 4 large tablespoons ICE CREAM
SHAKE.....top with soda water. Spoon strawberry ICE CREAM in. Serve at once. For
a..
Pg. 18, col. 4:  For a frosted shake add 4 large tablespoons ice cream.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("cabinets")
   Newport Daily News   Monday, June 16, 1952 Newport, Rhode Island
...Here's Your Guide For Top Quality ICE CREAM SODAS CABINETS MILK SHAKES C
ANDIES.....Block 188 Bellevue Ave. LA FORGE ICE CREAM SHOP I Tel. 5685 GRADUATE
if U.
Pg. 3, col. 1 ad:
ICE CREAM
SODAS
CABINETS
MILK SHAKES
CANDIES
SANDWICHES
(...)
LA FORGE
ICE CREAM SHOP.

---------------------------------------------------------------
POT STICKERS (continued)

   I previously cited "pot stickers" from the book HOW TO COOK AND EAT IN
CHINESE.  There's a story about the book in Sunday's NEW YORK TIMES MAGAZINE:


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/13/magazine/13FOOD.html?pagewanted=2
Not only have the book's basic recipes inspired the often more complicated
versions in later Chinese cookbooks, but several of his/her attempts to create
an equivalent culinary vocabulary in English, like stir-fry and pot stickers,
have become part of the culinary language. ''Wraplings,'' as a word for Chinese
ravioli, hasn't survived, but recently I found pot stickers -- ''wraplings
grilled on a griller'' -- on the menu of 66, a pretentious, fatally bland
Chinese restaurant in TriBeCa. The attempt to introduce ''ramblings'' for hun-t'un
(won ton), which ''differ from ordinary neat-edged wraplings by having fluffy
or rambling edges like the tails of a goldfish,'' didn't catch on, either, but
provides an opportunity for Professor Chao to add this footnote in his own
initials: ''The same spoken word, written differently, means in fact the nebulous
state of confusion when the world began,'' an elevated thought to accompany
your next bowl of won-ton soup.

''How to Cook and Eat in Chinese'' is no longer in print, and the Chaos may
no longer be with us. My copy is now brittle and all but unusable. Much of it
is out of date, especially the list of ingredients. Today leaf lard is hard to
find, but ginger is no longer esoteric, and bok choy and hoisin can be found
in supermarkets. But the recipes are still basic and true. They will not daunt
an everyday cook and may also inspire experts.

---------------------------------------------------------------
PRIX FIXE, PRE FIX, PRICE FIXED... (continued)

   I walked by Le Steak at Third Avenue and East 75th Street.  It's supposed
to be a French restaurant.
   It serves a "Pre Fix."


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun 13 14:12:29 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 10:12:29 -0400
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.101229.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Considering that the song magically appears in newspaper references and
advertisements around 1899-1900, and is billed as a ragtime/cake walk/negro
song, you might look to Black English.  Just a possibility.

Sam Clements
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Cohen" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 5:45 PM
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"


> A colleague has asked me about the meaning of "A high tuck-a-haw" in
> the lyrics of the song "Turkey in the Straw."  Would anyone know?
> The relevant verse is:
>
>         Turkey in the straw,
>         Turkey in the straw,
>         Roll 'em up and twist 'em up
>         A high tuck a-haw
>         And hit 'em up a tune called
>         Turkey in the Straw.
>
> Also, what does "Roll 'em up and twist 'em up" refer to?
>
> Gerald Cohen
>


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun 13 14:40:22 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 10:40:22 -0400
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.104022.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And you can safely ignore what I posted previously.  :(

The tune(and words) are from at least 1861, attributed to either Dan Emmett
or Dan Bryant, both members of a minstrel group.  So, it could still be from
Black English--or not.

Sam Clements
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <SClements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"


> Considering that the song magically appears in newspaper references and
> advertisements around 1899-1900, and is billed as a ragtime/cake
walk/negro
> song, you might look to Black English.  Just a possibility.
>
> Sam Clements
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gerald Cohen" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 5:45 PM
> Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
>
>
> > A colleague has asked me about the meaning of "A high tuck-a-haw" in
> > the lyrics of the song "Turkey in the Straw."  Would anyone know?
> > The relevant verse is:
> >
> >         Turkey in the straw,
> >         Turkey in the straw,
> >         Roll 'em up and twist 'em up
> >         A high tuck a-haw
> >         And hit 'em up a tune called
> >         Turkey in the Straw.
> >
> > Also, what does "Roll 'em up and twist 'em up" refer to?
> >
> > Gerald Cohen
> >
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 13 15:27:12 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 11:27:12 -0400
Subject: "Stealing lead pipe" (1887)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.112712.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

[Michael Quinion recently featured the odd expression "lead-pipe cinch" =
"sure thing". The earliest citations I can find date from 1890.]

Lead pipe was stolen a lot, apparently. Search of the on-line "Brooklyn
Daily Eagle" (1841-1902) gives the following numbers of instances:

<<stealing iron pipe>> ..... 0
<<stealing steel pipe>> .... 0
<<stealing copper pipe>> ... 2
<<stealing lead pipe>> .... 52
<<stealing pipe>> .......... 7 (of which 4 refer to lead pipe, 1 to copper
pipe, 2 to pipe of unspecified material)

 From N'archive:

----------

_Newark Daily Advocate_ (Newark OH), 5 Feb. 1887: p. 3(?), col. 1:

[referring to dubious or invented family arms painted on one's carriage:
browsing for a notional ancestor in Burke's]

<<HUNTING A PEDIGREE. / When he has made up his mind to it, this is as easy
as stealing lead pipe from a junk shop.>>

----------

At N'archive I find no other pre-1890 metaphor with "easy as stealing
[anything]" or "easy as taking [anything]".

-- Doug Wilson


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun 13 18:09:49 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 14:09:49 -0400
Subject: "lead pipe cinch" and plumbers 1893
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.140949.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Michael Quinion noted in his column
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-lea2.htm

that no connection between the plumbing trade/device for "cinching" pipe
together, etc had been found.

A story from the Dec. 13, 1893 Washington Post says that

"The master plumbers assembled for their annual feast last evening, and they
had a veritable lead pipe cinch.  Every plumber was in the best of humor, as
he had a right to be, for the winter is the harvest time.  Then the cold
grows strong and the pipe joints are weak."

No device here, but it does tenuously connect the plumbing biz with the
phrase, if only humorously.

SC


From TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Sun Jun 13 18:55:22 2004
From: TheEditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:55:22 +0100
Subject: "lead pipe cinch" and plumbers 1893
In-Reply-To: <001f01c45171$9e8a3af0$0724a618@sam>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.195522.0100.>

Sam Clements wrote:

> Michael Quinion noted in his column
> http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-lea2.htm
>
> that no connection between the plumbing trade/device for "cinching"
> pipe together, etc had been found.
>
> A story from the Dec. 13, 1893 Washington Post says that
>
> "The master plumbers assembled for their annual feast last evening,
> and they had a veritable lead pipe cinch.  Every plumber was in the
> best of humor, as he had a right to be, for the winter is the harvest
> time.  Then the cold grows strong and the pipe joints are weak."
>
> No device here, but it does tenuously connect the plumbing biz with
> the phrase, if only humorously.

This is interesting, if only to show that the expression was even by
then well enough known that it could be applied in this way. But I
would suggest that the humour in the association only arises if the
source of the expression hadn't been in plumbing to start with.

Several World Wide Words subscribers have asserted that there was a
device that acted like a wrench to hold lead pipe, but using a fabric
strap to avoid crushing or scratching the soft material (it was named
by one writer as a strap wrench) and that this was in fact the lead
pipe cinch of the expression. I found no examples of "pipe cinch"
(which might have resulted in the  compound "lead pipe-cinch" being
reanalysed as "lead-pipe cinch") or any citation that suggested a
link between plumbing and cinches.

If anyone can help to take this forward, it would be one fewer
etymological puzzle for subscribers to tax me with!

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <TheEditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 13 19:12:22 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:12:22 EDT
Subject: Lead Pipe(1890); Clover Club cocktail (1911); Pegu Club
 Cocktail(1934); OED days
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.151222.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OLSON--Sorry for the spelling of OLSON and OLSEN in a prior post.  It's OLSON 
for both title and author.
    
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
LEAD PIPE CINCH
      
   Here's the article:
  
  
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-lea2.htm
[Q] From Irving S Schloss: ?What is the origin of lead-pipe cinch, which, in 
American slang, means a dead certainty??
  
[A] Nobody seems quite sure. We?ve a lot of information about its early days 
but it doesn?t quite add up to a complete story. Facts first, then the 
speculation.The figurative sense of cinch is recorded from the 1880s on. This came 
from the saddle-girth meaning of the word, which itself had been borrowed from 
Spanish cincha in the 1860s. A saddle that had been tightly cinched was secure, 
so something that was a cinch was a safe or sure thing, an idea which 
developed into the slang sense of something that was a certainty.
  
Lead-pipe cinch suddenly appears in the early 1890s, only a few years after 
that sense of cinch had been created. The first mention I can find is in a 
parody of Sandford Bennett?s hymn In The Sweet By and By that appeared in the 
Chicago Tribune late in 1891: ?Oh, the place will be delightful, and it?s worth 
our while to try / To get a lead pipe cinch upon the sweet by and by.?
  
It?s obvious enough that a lead-pipe cinch is one up on the common or garden 
variety of cinch, so that lead-pipe here is what grammarians call an 
intensifier. But why should it be so? This is where we part company with the facts and 
go drifting off on the wayward currents of surmise and supposition. Robert 
Chapman?s Dictionary of American Slang suggested it is because a lead pipe is 
easily bent, ?in case one has bet on such a feat?. Eric Partridge thought it 
came about through the effectiveness of a length of lead pipe as a weapon. 
Jonathon Green argues it is the solidity of the lead pipe that is most important.
  
Unlike many modern urban folk, in the 1890s everyone who used the phrase knew 
exactly what a cinch was in its literal sense. So lead-pipe cinch had to 
resonate somehow with that. Jonathon Lighter, in the Random House Historical 
Dictionary of American Slang, points out that there was a brief flowering of 
another sense, that of having an especially firm grip on something. The idea was 
presumably that if a leather cinch was effective, one made of lead would be even 
more so, or that one?s grip on lead pipe could be firmer than on a leather 
strap.
  
Following the first appearance of this piece in the newsletter, several 
subscribers suggested that the piece of lead pipe might have been used to tighten a 
strap. Larry Krakauer described it like this: ?We ?cinch?, or ?cinch up?, 
anything that is held tightly by a strap or rope. If you want to cinch 
something really tightly, you put something like a stick, or perhaps a piece of pipe, 
through the rope loop that goes around the object to be held, and you twist 
it. The length of pipe twisting the rope gives you enormous leverage. Lead pipe 
was a suitable size and was likely to be available.? This sounds possible, 
though essential evidence is lacking.
  
Many others sought an origin in the plumbing trade, on the basis that there 
might have been some device that held, or cinched, pieces of pipe together. It 
might have been a version of a device sometimes known as a strap wrench, which 
is used when the jaws of a standard monkey wrench would damage the item being 
worked on. It?s a plausible-sounding origin, but I?ve found nothing to 
suggest a link between the expression and the plumbing business.
  
Either way, this is the nearest we can get to understanding the thought 
processes of 1890s Americans. 

  
   I googled further and found that an earlier citation seems to have been 
found by someone named Barry Popik:
  
  
(GOOGLE)
Issue of November 27, 2001
... A few years ago etymologist Barry Popik uncovered the earliest use in 
print of
"lead-pipe cinch" yet found (in an 1890 issue of The Sporting News) in an ... 

www.word-detective.com/112701.html - 44k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
  
   THE SPORTING NEWS of that period is in terrible shape, and I spent many 
hours squinting my eyes going through years of it.  I couldn't find it again on 
www.paperofrecord.com, but I guarantee you that it's there.
   I'd copied it for Gerald Cohen many years ago.  I also posted it, if I 
recall correctly, on the old ADS-L archives (which are no longer available).
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
OED DAYS
  
   The June OED NEWS is out and features a day in the life of the OED.  One 
editor is looking at Newspaperarchive.  Another editor is looking at ECCO 
(Eighteenth Century Collections Online).  
   Sarah Oglivie, a senior assistant editor, is looking at Murray's slips for 
the words _oopack_, _ketchup_, _cha_, and _chopstick_.  About ketchup...
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
CLOVER CLUB COCKTAIL
  
   Another 1911 citation, from my files.
    
 
BEVERAGES DE LUXE
edited by Geo. R. Washburne and Stanley Bronner
Published by The Wine and Spirit Bulletin
Louisville
1911
      
(No page numbers--ed.)
As served at Hotel Belvedere, Baltimore, Maryland
   CLOVER CLUB
Juice of lime.
Few dashes of Grenadine Syrup.
One-sixth Italian Vermouth.
One-sixth French Vermouth.
Two-thirds gin.
Add white of an egg.  Frappe well.
Dress with three mint leaves on edge of glass.
Serve in claret glass.
In season use raspberries instead of Grenadine.  Macerate the raspberries 
with muddler.
  
As served at The Waldorf-Astoria, New York, N. Y.
   CLOVER CLUB
Juice of half lemon.
White of an egg.
Half teaswpoonful powderedsugar.
One drink of Plymouth Gin.
One pony Raspberry Syrup.
Frappe thoroughly and serve in claret glass with a sprig of mint on top.
  
-----------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PEGU CLUB COCKTAIL
  
   I couldn't beat 1930 in the SAVOY CLUB COCKTAIL BOOK, but the following 
book is always a useful place to start for cocktails of this period.  It appears 
from "OED DAYS" that OED is doing the letter "P."
   I must add that I've never been to Burma (I don't want to travel half way 
around the world to throw my support to a brutal military dictatorship), but 
I'm willing to investigate further if OED pays the expenses.
  
  
1700 COCKTAILS
FOR THE MAN BEHIND THE BAR
by R. de Fleury
London: William Heinemann Ltd.
1934
  
Pg. 108:
   No. 840
PEGU CLUB
1 Teaspoon Lime Juice
1/3 Pollen's Curacao
2/3 Coates' Plymouth Gin
1 Dash Orange Bitters
1 Dash Angostura Bitters


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 13 19:38:35 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 15:38:35 -0400
Subject: "lead pipe cinch" and plumbers 1893
In-Reply-To: <40CCB12A.7157.2840C28@localhost>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.153835.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Several World Wide Words subscribers have asserted that there was a
>device that acted like a wrench to hold lead pipe, but using a fabric
>strap to avoid crushing or scratching the soft material (it was named
>by one writer as a strap wrench) and that this was in fact the lead
>pipe cinch of the expression. I found no examples of "pipe cinch"
>(which might have resulted in the  compound "lead pipe-cinch" being
>reanalysed as "lead-pipe cinch") or any citation that suggested a
>link between plumbing and cinches.

Certainly there are and were strap wrenches. I do not know that any were
called cinches. My newspaper search did not turn up such a thing.

Even if there was a tool or connection called a "lead pipe cinch", what
would connect it semantically with a "sure bet" or "easy task"?

I see several possibilities for the "lead pipe".

(1)

"Stealing lead pipe" may have been a figure of speech like "taking candy
from a baby". I mentioned this just today on this list.

Pro: There is a supporting citation (1887).

Con: I've found only the one supporting citation.

(2)

HDAS quotes an old slang dictionary giving "grapevine cinch" as an
equivalent of "lead-pipe cinch". "Grapevine cinch" looks transparent: the
inside information obtained through the "grapevine" assures that the bet is
a sure thing. Perhaps "lead pipe" is analogous to "grapevine", but how? I
doubt any horses were cinched with grapevine, nor with lead pipe.

"Grapevine" in the information sense is basically a metaphor for "telegraph
line". Central telegraph lines were (I think) often run through lead pipe
to protect them from the elements. Conceivably there could be a clue here.

Unfortunately, I can find NO text employing "grapevine cinch" anywhere.

(3)

Somebody has suggested that there was a standard barroom bet as to whether
a man could bend an iron pipe in his hands (but it was a cinch because it
was a [soft] lead pipe). I'm not sure whether this is plausible: lead pipe
was a well-known commodity, and it's usually easy to distinguish lead from
iron, so I wonder whether people could have been fooled.

(4)

And then there's likely the true etymology, which nobody's thought of yet.
(^_^)

-- Doug Wilson


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Jun 13 21:26:41 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:26:41 -0400
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.172641.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        One might suppose from context that "roll 'em up," "twist 'em up," and "a high tuckahaw" (as it is usually spelled, at least in my experience) refer to dance steps, but I don't know if there is any evidence to support that.  "Tuckahaw" was used in an 1851 work that I found on the Making of America database:

        <<In 1771, they [sc. the Chickasaws] lived in the centre of a large and gently rolling prairie, three miles square.  They obtained their water from holes, which dried up in summer.  In this prairie was an assemblage of houses one mile and a half long, very narrow and irregular, which was divided into seven towns, as follows:
        Mellattau--_hat and feather_.
        Chatelau--_copper town_.
        Chuckafalaya--_long town_.
        Hickihaw--_stand still_.
        Chucalissa--_great town_.
        Tuckahaw--a certain _weed_.
        Ash-wick-boo-ma--_red grass_.>>

Albert James Pickett, History of Alabama, and Incidentally of Georgia and Mississippi, from the Earliest Period, Vol. I, pp. 147 - 48 (2d ed. 1851).  I assume that the italicized words are the translations of the towns' names.

        Admittedly, there is no obvious connection between a Chickasaw word, meaning a certain weed and also referring to a Chickasaw town, and the word used in "Turkey in the Straw," whose meaning is unknown but presumably does not refer to a weed.  I can't help thinking of tobacco, a weed whose leaves may be rolled and twisted and which, as an important agricultural product, might have some connection to hay and straw.  However, if the Chickasaws by "tuckahaw" meant "tobacco," then presumably Pickett would have written "tobacco" and not "a certain weed."

        So we are left with three alternatives:  First, that tuckahaw refers in some sense to tobacco, even though the Chickasaws used it to refer to a different word.  Second, that tuckahaw derives from the Chickasaw word but in this instance is used as a nonsense word.  Third, and perhaps most likely, that the similarity between the word in the song and the Chickasaw word is merely coincidental.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Gerald Cohen
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 5:45 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"


A colleague has asked me about the meaning of "A high tuck-a-haw" in
the lyrics of the song "Turkey in the Straw."  Would anyone know?
The relevant verse is:

        Turkey in the straw,
        Turkey in the straw,
        Roll 'em up and twist 'em up
        A high tuck a-haw
        And hit 'em up a tune called
        Turkey in the Straw.

Also, what does "Roll 'em up and twist 'em up" refer to?

Gerald Cohen


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Jun 13 21:45:44 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 17:45:44 -0400
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F23B620A@PHEX01.stradley.com >
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.174544.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>         So we are left with three alternatives:  First, that tuckahaw
> refers in some sense to tobacco, even though the Chickasaws used it to
> refer to a different word.  Second, that tuckahaw derives from the
> Chickasaw word but in this instance is used as a nonsense word.  Third,
> and perhaps most likely, that the similarity between the word in the song
> and the Chickasaw word is merely coincidental.

I pretty much agree. Note also that Tuckahoe (same word, it seems) is used
to mean a native of [Lowland] Virginia.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 13 22:25:03 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:25:03 -0400
Subject: OT: 1904 World's Fair foods (again)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.182503.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Amazing.  This never ends.

Barry Popik

(LEXIS-NEXIS)
Independent on Sunday (London)
June 13, 2004, Sunday
SECTION: Final Edition; FEATURES; Pg. 24,25,26
LENGTH: 1690 words

HEADLINE: FOOD & DRINK SPECIAL: TAKE IT AWAY, SAM;
 EVER WONDERED WHO WE HAVE TO THANK FOR THE SUGARY, FATTENING,

BYLINE: MARK ELLWOOD The latest scoop: this photograph of a woman and her children enjoying some of the first ever ice-cream cones was one of the most celebrated of the Fair. Right: an altar to food in Utah's 1904 World's Fair exhibit. Far right: the Grand Basin shows the full glory of the St Louis event Eat me in St Louis: two of the many eateries at the Fair. Right: the Filipino tribesmen displayed' at the event. Rumours that they ate dog gave rise to the naming of the favourite food - a sausage in a bun - at the nearby Olympics

BODY:
Ted Drewes ice-cream parlour is a whitewashed shack on the outskirts of St Louis, Missouri, filled with the constant hum of blenders; there are no tables, just take-out windows, the scrawled menus pasted on the glass. Yet, even on a cold March day, the line for sundaes snakes out of the carpark. What most of the shivering, scarf-wrapped people are waiting for is the house special: a Concrete - a scoop of frozen vanilla custard pureed in a blender with a choice of thickeners from chunks of chocolate to a slab of cherry pie, to a jaw-breaking consistency (hence the name). But the strangest thing about Ted's sundaes isn't their ingredients or moniker - it's the fact that they're served in a cup rather than a cone. Strange because this sweet-toothed city deep in the US's Midwest is where the ice-cream cone was invented. In fact, it was during the World's Fair of 1904 that in one short summer the city helped introduce not only cones but peanut butter, the hot dog, Dr Pepper, iced tea and candy floss too. If any city can lay claim to being the capital of the Fast Food Nation, this is it.

Staged here to celebrate the centenary of America's westward expansion, the 1904 Fair was officially called the Louisiana Purchase Exposition; at that time, St Louis was the fourth largest town in the US and a natural site for a spot of jolly nationalism (and a little chirpy romance, as Judy Garland would find out 40 years later in the classic musical, Meet Me in St Louis). The fair took place in a vast green space now known as Forest Park; more than 20 million people came to see exotica such as a live village shipped wholesale from the Philippines and one of the raunchy dancers performing on an entertainment strip dubbed The Pike.

Scantily clad girls aside, most of the exhibits were nakedly commercial, from lightbulbs to Bissel vacuum cleaners; there were even demonstrations showing the time-saving advantages of cooking with electricity. "Unlike Chicago's exhibition in 1893, this fair didn't focus on art and architecture, it was about what you can buy," explains Andrew Walker, director of collections for the Missouri Historical Society, "it was the dawn of the age of convenience." Nowhere was that clearer than in the Fair's fast food: take the ice-cream cone, an iconic image of the event even in contemporary accounts. "One of the most celebrated pictures taken by the official photographer running around the Fair was of a woman and her children enjoying an ice-cream cone," notes writer and food historian Suzanne Corbett. In colonial times, ice-cream had been a pricey delicacy, but by the 1870s, technical advances made it an affordable if upscale treat; in fact, the turn-of-the-century temperance movement trumpeted it as a genteel substitute for sherry.

Ideal for the clammy St Louis summer, ice-cream was offered in The Pike, but demand was so high that the stallholder ran out of plates to serve it on; that's when Ernest Hamwi - a Syrian immigrant who was making waffles next door - stepped in. He twisted one of his waffles to carry the treat and created the first ever ice-cream cone. "The cone took ice-cream out of the ice-cream parlour and fancy drawing rooms, to make it a food of the masses," explains Corbett. Several manufacturers, including the St Louis Ice-Cream Cone Company and the Missouri Cone Company, sprang up after the fair and for many years the city was the main supplier of cones to the whole country.

Hamwi's waffle solved one of the barriers to the take off of fast food: being able to handle what you're eating. Until the fair, the few carry- out foods on offer usually came with a handy pair of gloves to keep fingers and food apart - stashed in a bun, hot dogs needed no such equipment. And these on-the-go specials quickly became a favourite not only with the throngs visiting the Fair but with spectators at the Olympic Games (which was taking place in the city at the same time) who snapped them up in their thousands.

Certainly, sausages were not invented at the Fair and frankfurters were probably brought to St Louis years before by German immigrants. But it was here that, tucked in a bun, they got a following - and a name. Rumour raged that the Filipino tribesmen in the village exhibit favoured canine cuisine and, even though their government purportedly supplied dozens of dogs for them to eat, local pets were said to be vanishing to satisfy the hunger of the savages. Seeing the publicity potential in this, savvy vendors dubbed their sausage and bun combos "hot dogs".
(SOYLENT GREEN IS MADE OF PEOPLE!  PEOPLE!  IT'S MADE OF PEOPLE!  Sorry, I just had to add this Charlton Heston movie line.  So the INDEPENDENT does no fact-checking whatsoever, not even in the OED?--ed.)

There was another reason, Corbett explains, that frankfurters were so hot at the time. "At the time, these sausages were a food that even the most strait-laced grandmother saw as healthy and nutritious," she says. The same was true for peanut butter. "It was marketed as a healthy food for children," Corbett continues. Peanuts were known to be packed with protein; and for several years, physicians had been fiddling with ways to launch them into the everyday diet. Cereal king John Harvey Kellogg, for example, patented a paste he created from boiled nuts with little success. The problem? Its bland flavour. It was a smart doctor from St Louis (whose name no one can now agree on) who came up with roasting the nuts first. Pureed, they now had a stronger, richer taste. The doctor marketed his paste as ideal for anyone who couldn't chew, whether through poor health or lack of teeth.

But it was yet another man, CH Sumner, who realised peanut butter's potential as a snack food and snapped up the concession to hawk it at the Fair. "He had the peanut-butter grinding apparatus on site so he could grind it freshly," Corbett says. "There is talk that he sold it with crackers or bread, and even as a carry-out item in a little tub for buyers to snack on later." Sumner's instincts were spot-on: he made more than $ 700 and the product was soon launched into mass production by a local entrepreneur (though it would be well into the 1930s when another company came up with the idea of stirring in nut chunks to create a crunchy version).

All that food made the Fair's visitors thirsty. Fortunately, the exhibitors were there to help. Two of the drinks launched at the Fair became favourites: iced tea and Dr Pepper. The former had existed in the Deep South for some time but settlers usually steeped the tea in a jug, left it out in the sun all day and then served it tepid. The St Louis version was brewed hot and poured over ice - an innovation thought up by a group of Chinese and Indian tea producers exhibiting at the Fair and frustrated that no one was buying their hot beverages.

As for Dr Pepper, it was introduced in Texas in 1885 (the name, a tribute to the inventor's first boss, and its oddball flavour coming from prune juice) but it took 20 years for the company to gather enough cash and courage to launch the fizzy drink nationwide; the 1904 Fair was chosen, and to pique interest, free gifts with purchase - think soda-pop watches - were offered, essentially making them the world's first Happy Meal.

Candy floss which, like Dr Pepper, pre-dated the Fair, also kicked off in 1904. The process had been cooked up in Tennessee but here its inventors marketed bundles in wooden boxes and sold almost 70,000 portions of the stuff.

But just why was junk food the legacy of the St Louis show? "There was a boom in product development in the late-19th century," explains Corbett, "and at the same time fast food became acceptable for all classes to eat and enjoy." And not only were these snacks cheap so every fair-goer could afford them, they were also marketed as hot, new 20th-century fads. Unlike past fairs in Chicago or Paris, which looked back at the city's achievements, the mercantile, factory-packed town of St Louis chose to look forwards and predict the products of the next 100 years (and, in the process, stake its claim to mass producing them). Timing was also critical because, as Corbett explains, "by 1904, more people were able to travel than ever before but it still hadn't been considered socially polite to walk around eating things. As communications and transport became faster, food followed suit and became more mobile and more packable."

But the success of iced teas and ice-creams was down to marketing as much as mobility: World's Fairs were the primetime "infomercials" of their day, with the selling power of an ad during Coronation Street and a splash in the Sun combined. Paul Greenhalgh, the former head of research at the Victoria & Albert Museum who is working on a book about World's Fairs notes that various brands, such as Thomas Cook, also owe their pre-eminence to these exhibitions (in Cook's case, London 1851). "There were Olympiads alongside the fairs, they were political events, with giant congresses of doctors and medics, and huge trade fairs," says Greenhalgh. And it was this convergence of business and entertainment that gave absolutely everyone a reason to visit.

The acres of publicity also helped - daily bulletins of the Fair's goings on were such a staple of newspapers across the world that the St Louis board even instituted a Department of Exploitation to churn out propaganda. It was a chance that entrepreneurs such as the Dr Pepper company and CH Sumner seized wisely. "World's Fairs were vital for producing the modern popular and high cultural world," Greenhalgh believes, "from blockbuster exhibitions to all forms of natural history displays as well as the Olympics and Olympia-type trade shows such as the Motor Show."

Though Cook may have London to thank for his travellers' cheques, other cooks - especially reluctant ones - will thank St Louis for ushering in the era of culinary convenience. And while there are always competing claims over the origins of foodstuffs (some say a circus helper invented candy floss 50 years earlier, and sausages are namechecked in the Bible), what's indisputable is that the 1904 St Louis Fair marked the Triumph of Take-Out. After all, contemporary accounts single out a seventh dish as a breakout hit: Chinese fried rice.

LOAD-DATE: June 13, 2004


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 13 22:43:44 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 18:43:44 EDT
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 11 Jun 2004 to 12 Jun 2004 (#2004-165)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.184344.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated  Sat, 12 Jun 2004 07:31:36 -0400,  "Dennis R. Preston"
<preston at MSU.EDU> asks:

>  Could "West Unself" be "Wes Unseld" in disguise?

Having (back in high school) personally observed Westley Unseld trying to
pass himself off as a 5-foot-4-inch Asian, I have no doubt of it.

Note the spelling of his first name and you will see where "West" came from.
I believe Unseld himself uses the spelling "Wes".

       - Jim Landau


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sun Jun 13 23:18:24 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 19:18:24 -0400
Subject: lead pipe cinch
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.191824.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry Popik writes, citing Schloss:
> Eric Partridge thought it
>came about through the effectiveness of a length of lead pipe as a weapon. <
~~~~~~~~
This conforms to the meaning "lead pipe cinch" has always had for me:  that
the effectiveness of "lead pipe" as an intensifier was directly related to
its effectiveness as a weapon.
A. Murie


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Jun 14 01:21:07 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:21:07 -0400
Subject: location, location, location 1926
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.212107.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We only had this one back to 1956 I think.

27 Sept. 1926, Chicago Tribune  36/6  (classified ads)

ATTENTION,/SALESMEN, SALES MGRS./ LOCATION/LOCATION/LOCATION
Close in to Rogers park./Greatest cross section business streets./Close to L, 35 min. downtown./Choicest high grade restricted Apartment locations and valuable corners./ PROFITS to your customers./ IMPROVEMENTS--Quick development./ A LOCATION that builds sales/ for you, eliminating all resistance./ Your greatest opportunity to make/ money is in THIS PROPERTY.

Not exactly a house for sale, but the same understanding.

Sam Clements


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Jun 14 01:35:53 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 21:35:53 -0400
Subject: location location location 1926
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.213553.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I believe we only took this one back to 1956.

27 Sept. 1926  Chicago Tribune 36/6  (classified ads)

ATTENTION,/ SALESMEN, SALES MGRS./ LOCATION/ LOCATION/ LOCATION

   Close in to Rogers Park./ Greatest cross section business streets/close to L, 35 min. downtown/choicest high grade restricted apartment locations and valuable corners/profits to your customers/improvements--quick developemnt/a location that builds sales for you, elimination all resistance/your greates opportunity to make money is in this property.


   --maybe not a house for sale, but still......

SC


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 14 02:02:05 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 22:02:05 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20OT:=201904=20World's=20Fa?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ir=20foods=20(again)?=
Message-ID: <SUN.13.JUN.2004.220205.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/13/04 6:25:54 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM writes:


> In fact, it was during the World's Fair of 1904 that in one short summer
> the city helped introduce not only cones but peanut butter, the hot dog, Dr
> Pepper, iced tea and candy floss too. If any city can lay claim to being the
> capital of the Fast Food Nation, this is it.
>

I'm surprised that there is no mention of the hamburger, which is often said
to have been first made well known to the American public at the 1904 Fair.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 14 06:13:22 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 02:13:22 EDT
Subject: "Plugra" butter (1988); Tunnel of Fudge (1966)
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.021322.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PLUGRA

PLUGRA--744 Google hits, 435 Google Groups hits
(I don't know if OED is interested; it appears to be a trademark.)


   All you "coup de gras" people might be interested in "plugra."  Just leave
off that last "s" when naming your product after French words!  I just read
that it's from 1989, but it's actually from late 1988.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    Food Notes; Now, a butter with even more fat Nika Hazelton earns her
place as a Grande Dame Exotic prices for the humble banana.
Florence Fabricant. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May
17, 1989. p. C7 (1 page):
_An Even Richer Butter_
   Hotel Bar Foods is winning plaudits from chefs for Plugra, a new butter
developed for professional cooked.  What consumers may think of the name is
something else.  It is pronounced ploo-GRAH, after the French "plus gras" or "more
fat."
   American butters are generally 80 percent pure fat; the rest is moisture
and milk solids.  Plugra, like European butters, is 82 percent fat.  Since it
has less moisture, it is better for baking delicate pastries.  Maurice Bonte,
owner of Bonte Patisserie on the Upper East Side of Manhattan, has been using
it since November.  At Le Cirque, Daniel Boulud has also switched to it.
   The higher the fat content, the better a butter is for clarifying and for
finishing sauces.  Some chefs use less of it than ordinary butter because of
the added richness.  It has a more delicate fresh cream flavor than the regular
Hotel Bar unsalted butter.

    The New Fancy Food Products Seem a Little Hotter This Year
By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.:
Jul 11, 1990. p. C4 (1 page)

    I'll Have My Milk With Cream, And Pass the Butter; I'll Have My Milk With
Cream, and Pass Me the Butter, Too Someone out there is eating fat, from
environmentally correct containers.
By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.:
Oct 30, 1991. p. C1 (2 pages)

    Butter Bites Back; A performer on both the palate and the stove is
returning to the American diet. Butter Bites Back, and Gets Respect
By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.:
Mar 22, 1995. p. C1 (2 pages)


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: Hiroko (jnapier at spam@21stcentury.net)
Subject: Re: French BUtter?
View: Complete Thread (14 articles)
Newsgroups: alt.cooking.chefs, chi.eats
Date: 2002-05-02 11:04:05 PST
(...)
Plugra/Keller
Introduced in the United States in 1989, Plugra is the name that's used when
it's sold to commercial bakeries like ours.  The name Plugra means
simply,"more fat," and at 82 percent it is richer than the typical American offerings.
The same product is packaged for consumers and sold under the label "Keller's."
 Without question, Plugra was a step forward for butter quality in this
country.   It picked up praise in an array of food magazines, and almost every
top-notch commercial baker seems to swear by it.At our own Bakehouse we use very
large quantities of Plugra for pastry baking-you can experience its excellence
and extra-richness in any of ourcroissants, Danish, pain au chocolat, and
other items.  Still, all praise aside, I personally find Plugra a little bland for
eating straight with bread.  This is, of course, the same blandness that
makes it such a good palette for bakers to work with.  By contrast, the full
flavor of Occelli would likely interfere with the subtle spicing and nuance in many
pastries.  So, my suggestion is to use it for baking, but to go with one of
the other options for serving at the table or for melting over baked potatoes
or steamed vegetables.


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   PLUGRA
Goods and Services  IC 029. US 046. G & S: BUTTER. FIRST USE: 19881219. FIRST
USE IN COMMERCE: 19881219
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number   73779132
Filing Date February 6, 1989
Current Filing Basis    1A
Original Filing Basis   1A
Published for Opposition    July 18, 1989
Registration Number 1560037
Registration Date   October 10, 1989
Owner   (REGISTRANT) BORDEN, INC. CORPORATION NEW JERSEY 180 EAST BROAD
STREET COLUMBUS OHIO 43215(LAST LISTED OWNER) SODIAAL NORTH AMERICA CORPORATION DBA
("SODIAAL") CORPORATION ASSIGNEE OF DELAWARE 855 MAPLE AVENUE HARLEYSVILLE
PENNSYLVANIA 19438
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record  SUSAN M. LOFASO
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK
Register    PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text  SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR).
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
TUNNEL OF FUDGE

TUNNEL OF FUDGE--846 Google hits, 548 Google Groups hits

   I'm going through Judith M. Fertig's ALL-AMERICAN DESSERTS (2003), pg.
206:

_Tunnel of Fudge Cake_
   In 1966, Ella Rita Helfrich of Houston, Texas, blew the socks off the
judges and her competition when she won the 17th Pillsbury Bake-Off Contest and a
prize of $5,000.


   Nobody checks these things but me.  Andy Smith owes me a pair of socks for
this.

(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 Nevada State Journal   Wednesday, January 26, 1966 Reno, Nevada
...needed only 15 minutes to prepare her "TUNNEL OF FUDGE Cake." Kathy
Lunsford.....assistant to 12 apostles in the Church OF Jesus Chrisl OF Latter-day
Saints..
Pg. 7, col. 1:  SAN FRANCISCO (UPI)--Mrs. John (Mari) Petrelli, the wife of a
Las Vegas casino dealer, hit the $25,000 jackpot in the 17th annual Pillsbury
bake-off Tuesday with her "Golden Gate Snack Bread."
(...)
   The $5,000 second prize went to Mrs. Carl (Ella Rita) Helfrich, wife of a
Houston, Tex. railroad machinist, who needed only 15 minutes to prepare her
"Tunnel of Fudge Cake."


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Mon Jun 14 12:02:08 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 08:02:08 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Safire and OED on "Slam Dunk"
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.080208.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
: At 10:30 AM -0400 6/12/04, Fred Shapiro wrote:
:: On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

:::  Could "West Unself" be "Wes Unseld" in disguise?

:: The original said "West Unseld," actually.  I'm not sure where the
:: "t" in "West" came from.

: It came via assimilation from the res(t) of the sentence:

<snip>

: The context appears to have been the annual NBA all-star game between
: the West(ern Conference), including Jerry West of the L.A. Lakers and
: Lew Alcindor (of the Milwaukee Bucks at the time, later Kareem Abdul
: Jabbar of the Lakers), and the East(ern Conference), including Wes
: Unseld of the Washington Bullets.   The Kennebec Journal just
                ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^
: assimilated poor Wes Unseld to all those  Wests.

Erm, that'd be the *Baltimore* Bullets. Once i learned that the Bullets had
started out in Baltimore, the name made more sense to me--alliteration and
all that.

Of course, now they're the Washington Wizards, in a desperate attempt to
keep the alliteration. My favorite name for the team, though, is the
Washington Buzzards, keeping bits of both names, which (making this,
astonishingly enough, on-topic for the list) i've even seen in print--one of
Tony Kornheiser's columns in the Washington _Post_, IIRC, though it might
have been Mike Wilbon.

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 14 14:32:52 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:32:52 -0400
Subject: Antedating of Safire and OED on "Slam Dunk"
In-Reply-To: <00ab01c45207$6cf60e10$f0fbaa84@BOWIE>
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.103252.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:02 AM -0400 6/14/04, David Bowie wrote:
>From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>...
>: The context appears to have been the annual NBA all-star game between
>: the West(ern Conference), including Jerry West of the L.A. Lakers and
>: Lew Alcindor (of the Milwaukee Bucks at the time, later Kareem Abdul
>: Jabbar of the Lakers), and the East(ern Conference), including Wes
>: Unseld of the Washington Bullets.   The Kennebec Journal just
>                 ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^
>: assimilated poor Wes Unseld to all those  Wests.
>
>Erm, that'd be the *Baltimore* Bullets. Once i learned that the Bullets had
>started out in Baltimore, the name made more sense to me--alliteration and
>all that.

Pardon the Interruption, but they started out in the Windy City, as
the Chicago Zephyrs (named after the politicians who...just kidding).
I thought I should offer a mea culpa--I've been thinking lately about
the Washington Bullets' Man-O-War-like upset via sweep at the hands
of the Golden State Warriors in '75, which was a couple of years
after they had moved down from Baltimore to Landover.  But I was also
thinking that when the franchise won their one and only championship,
in their Washington Bullets incarnation, it was back in the Unseld
days, which it was, but I had forgotten that those days included the
end of the Baltimore Bullets era (through 1972-73), the short-lived
Capital Bullets era (1973-74), and then the start of the Washington
Bullets era (from 1974 until the magic transformation into the
Wizards), including the championship series in 1977-78 and 1978-79
vs. Seattle, the former of which they won.

>
>Of course, now they're the Washington Wizards, in a desperate attempt to
>keep the alliteration.

Well, technically, also prompted by their owner's invocation of taboo
avoidance against the use of the Bullets nickname in Washington, D.C.

>My favorite name for the team, though, is the
>Washington Buzzards, keeping bits of both names, which (making this,
>astonishingly enough, on-topic for the list) i've even seen in print--one of
>Tony Kornheiser's columns in the Washington _Post_, IIRC, though it might
>have been Mike Wilbon.
>
"Buzzards" is nice, but they've been going hungry lately--not enough
carrion to carry on, it would appear.

larry


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Jun 14 16:43:27 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:43:27 -0400
Subject: Chaos in the food column (fwd)
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.124327.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have just sent the following letter to the New York Times letters column,
with CC to William Safire:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:41:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark A. Mandel <mamandel at ldc.upenn.edu>
To: letters at nytimes.com
Cc: onlanguage at nytimes.com
Subject: Chaos in the food column

In Sunday's magazine, Jason Epstein writes of the pioneering cookbook
written by Buwei Yang Chao and her husband, Professor Yuen Ren Chao. I had
the good fortune of knowing them slightly during my days as a graduate
student in linguistics at the University of California, Berkeley, and the
quotation and comments near the end of the article recalled to me Professor
Chao's sense of humor:

        >>>
"Professor Chao [added] this footnote in his own initials: 'The same spoken
word [for what we now call won-ton in English], written differently, means
in fact the nebulous state of confusion when the world began,' an elevated
thought to accompany your next bowl of won-ton soup.

"'How to Cook and Eat in Chinese' is no longer in print, and the Chaos may
no longer be with us."
        <<<

I would add: The same _English written_ word that refers to Professor and
Mrs. Chao, _pronounced_ differently, "means in fact the nebulous state of
confusion when the world began," an amusing thought to reflect on as you
reread their cookbook or eat your next bowl of won-ton soup. I feel sure
that that is exactly what Professor Chao had in mind when writing this
footnote over his own name.

Mark A. Mandel, Research Administrator
Biomedical Information Extraction, Linguistic Data Consortium
University of Pennsylvania
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Jun 14 17:21:41 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 10:21:41 -0700
Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F23B620A@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.102141.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm finding this thread fascinating.  Not because I have any clues to the
etymology of "tuckahaw," but because I love the word whatever its origin,
and because until now I've never had occasion to question the way I first
heard that line of the song from a 78 or possibly 45 children's record.  It
didn't make particular sense to me, but what I heard was a reference to
"the hives and the hogs."  (Hey, the song was about farming, wasn't it?!)

Peter Mc.

--On Sunday, June 13, 2004 5:26 PM -0400 "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
wrote:

>         One might suppose from context that "roll 'em up," "twist 'em
> up," and "a high tuckahaw" (as it is usually spelled, at least in my
> experience) refer to dance steps, but I don't know if there is any
> evidence to support that.  "Tuckahaw" was used in an 1851 work that I
> found on the Making of America database:
>
>         <<In 1771, they [sc. the Chickasaws] lived in the centre of a
> large and gently rolling prairie, three miles square.  They obtained
> their water from holes, which dried up in summer.  In this prairie was an
> assemblage of houses one mile and a half long, very narrow and irregular,
> which was divided into seven towns, as follows:         Mellattau--_hat
> and feather_.
>         Chatelau--_copper town_.
>         Chuckafalaya--_long town_.
>         Hickihaw--_stand still_.
>         Chucalissa--_great town_.
>         Tuckahaw--a certain _weed_.
>         Ash-wick-boo-ma--_red grass_.>>
>
> Albert James Pickett, History of Alabama, and Incidentally of Georgia and
> Mississippi, from the Earliest Period, Vol. I, pp. 147 - 48 (2d ed.
> 1851).  I assume that the italicized words are the translations of the
> towns' names.
>
>         Admittedly, there is no obvious connection between a Chickasaw
> word, meaning a certain weed and also referring to a Chickasaw town, and
> the word used in "Turkey in the Straw," whose meaning is unknown but
> presumably does not refer to a weed.  I can't help thinking of tobacco, a
> weed whose leaves may be rolled and twisted and which, as an important
> agricultural product, might have some connection to hay and straw.
> However, if the Chickasaws by "tuckahaw" meant "tobacco," then presumably
> Pickett would have written "tobacco" and not "a certain weed."
>
>         So we are left with three alternatives:  First, that tuckahaw
> refers in some sense to tobacco, even though the Chickasaws used it to
> refer to a different word.  Second, that tuckahaw derives from the
> Chickasaw word but in this instance is used as a nonsense word.  Third,
> and perhaps most likely, that the similarity between the word in the song
> and the Chickasaw word is merely coincidental.
>
> John Baker
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Gerald Cohen
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 5:45 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Query: "A high tuck a-haw" in "Turkey in the Straw"
>
>
> A colleague has asked me about the meaning of "A high tuck-a-haw" in
> the lyrics of the song "Turkey in the Straw."  Would anyone know?
> The relevant verse is:
>
>         Turkey in the straw,
>         Turkey in the straw,
>         Roll 'em up and twist 'em up
>         A high tuck a-haw
>         And hit 'em up a tune called
>         Turkey in the Straw.
>
> Also, what does "Roll 'em up and twist 'em up" refer to?
>
> Gerald Cohen



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 14 18:01:53 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:01:53 -0700
Subject: Fwd: LINGUIST 30Q
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.110153.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

i seem to be turning into a ranting curmudgeon; the events of the past
year have left me with little patience for nonsense (like the blind
application of "rules" from style sheets, as below), though i have
endless patience for things i consider to be important.

in the (slightly edited) exchange below, provided for your
entertainment, i demand the reinstatement of a comma in a course
description.  i'm pleased to say that the stanford bulletin editor
replied with a charming note conceding my point and restoring the
comma, a decision applauded by both my department chair and the provost
of the university.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Arnold M. Zwicky <zwicky at csli.stanford.edu>
> Date: June 11, 2004 6:06:55 PM PDT
> To: [ML]
> Cc: [various university administrators]
> Subject: Re: LINGUIST 30Q
>
> On Jun 11, 2004, at 3:19 PM, [ML] wrote:
>
>>  Hi Arnold,
>>  Stylistically, the Bulletin office is opposed to the addition of the
>> comma in your course description. Would you like me to "take up the
>> fight", so to speak, or is it alright without the comma?
>
>>  Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:50:21 -0700
>>  To: [ML]
>>  From: [SS]
>>  Subject: Re: LINGUIST 30Q
>>
>>  Hi [M],
>>  We do not use a comma before "including" or "such as" anywhere in
>> the Bulletin. Descriptions are more like recipes or koans  than
>> expository prose, and many of the style conventions that we use
>> derive from that. Because we use extra commas in lists of 3 or more
>> (i.e., before the "and"), I tend to minimize commas elsewhere unless
>> there is a "meaning reason."
>>
>> Hi [S],
>>
>>  Arnold Zwicky approves of the LINGUIST 30Q course description,
>> except would like to add an extra comma:
>>   i'd like a comma in here:
>>   The real system of English grammar and usage, including...
>
> I suppose I should point out the irony of [SS]'s pronouncement with
> respect to the content of the course I am asking to teach.
>
> There are good reasons for having, or not having, a comma before
> "including" or "such as" (the two cases are not parallel, by the way).
>  A careful writer will consider these.  I wanted that comma because
> the version the Registrar's office wants to insist on --
>
>   The real system of English grammar and usage including prepositions,
> pronouns, modifiers, syntactic functions such as subjects, and forms
> such as the accusative case.
>
> -- fails to distinguish between nonrestrictive modifiers (my
> intention) and restrictive modifiers (the Registrar's version).  I
> would silently correct the Registrar's version in material I was
> editing for publication; it strikes me as semi-literate.
>
> The Registrar's office is, of course, entitled to do whatever it
> wants.  It could decide that the "zw" in my family name is
> unacceptable and insist on correcting it to "zaw".  It could decide
> that my whole name is too peculiar and should be replaced by something
> truly American, say, "Alex Adams".  But I don't have to cooperate.
> Much as I like teaching Stanford undergraduates, and being paid for
> it, I don't have to assent to arbitrary reworkings of what I write.
>
> The Registrar's office proposes to save commas before "including",
> apparently because it's spent its comma quota on serial commas (a good
> decision, by the way, though I can't imagine why this should be viewed
> as a zero-sum game).  This is just a pig-ignorant decision to go for
> consistency, in some utterly superficial sense.  (What person reading
> the Bulletin could *possibly* notice that there was an inconsistency
> in the use of commas before "including"?  Who the hell could care?  Is
> there a problem with commas increasing the size of the Bulletin?  Get
> a grip, people.)
>
> Look, one of the *points* of the course I am hoping to teach is that
> official pronouncements on the use of language -- even including the
> fine details of punctuation -- are not necessarily accurate, sensible,
> or worthy of attention.  Some of them are just fucked.
>
> The Registrar's office is, as I said, entitled to do what it wants.
> I, too, am a free agent.  If the Registrar's office insists on its
> version, I choose to opt out.  I utterly love teaching SIS courses,
> but not at the cost of being pushed around on points on which I am
> something of an authority.
>
> Put back the comma or lose me.  I'm deadly serious about this.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 14 18:36:24 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:36:24 -0700
Subject: [SPAM:#] learning "rules"
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.113624.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

a brief report on a small project done by a student in my sophomore
seminar (on prescriptivism and usage) spring quarter...

the aim of the paper was to look at the effect of explicit teaching on
the way people perceive writing.  the student invented an *incorrect*
"rule" of english grammar -- "each" and "every" are grammatically
plural, and so require a plural verb -- and investigated how people
(stanford undergraduates, in this case, mostly freshmen) would give
explicit judgments of "grammatical
correctness" for sentences involving these two determiners.  cutting
away some details, there was a control group (who were not given the
"rule") and an experimental group (who were), and everybody took a very
brief pre-test questionnaire designed to check, among other things, the
subject's place on an autonomy/compliance scale.

the autonomy/compliance part was less interesting than it might have
been, since almost all of the subjects viewed themselves as
independent.

my student expected the subjects who were given the "rule" to tend
towards compliance to it; years of grammar instruction, often involving
very arbitrary-seeming rules, would have trained them to do their best
to conform to them, at least on tests.

the results were just the opposite.  the subjects who'd been given the
"rule" tended to be deeply suspicious of it -- in a post-test, some
explicitly rejected it -- and to fall back on their judgment as
speakers of english.  the control group, confronted by a mixture of
bizarre and unremarkable sentences, seem to have been made unsure of
themselves.

now, this is a small pilot study, with lots of uncontrolled variables
in it, but it's still intriguing.  one possible interpretation is that
explicit grammatical instruction, especially on points that don't seem
natural for the students (and perhaps especially for highly educated
people), fosters not conformity to rule but resistance.  if so, then if
you want to teach the conventions of formal standard written english,
you should carefully select the "rules" you explicitly articulate,
reinforce, and test: dwelling on split infinitives, stranded
prepositions, possessive antecedents for pronouns, "dangling modifiers"
that are in fact entirely natural, and so on might well  be precisely
counterproductive.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Jun 14 18:33:21 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:33:21 -0400
Subject: Fwd: LINGUIST 30Q
In-Reply-To: <EAF38DA6-BE2C-11D8-8BE9-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.143321.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wow, this gives me heart to object to the writing on our university
website's instructions to international applicants.  It includes run-ons,
fragments, missing commas, oversupplied commas, etc.--all of which native
readers could disentangle but nonnatives could get, well, tangled up in.  I
WILL complain now, though I'm dealing, I'm sure, with low-level page
writers who may not even understand what I'm complaining about.

BTW, I love that "alright" too--a spelling this curmudgeon gets all riled
up about.  (And has anyone noticed that the NY Times fussily uses "roiled
up" whenever it has to use the phrase?  Who on earth ever says "roiled up"?)

At 11:01 AM 6/14/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>i seem to be turning into a ranting curmudgeon; the events of the past
>year have left me with little patience for nonsense (like the blind
>application of "rules" from style sheets, as below), though i have
>endless patience for things i consider to be important.
>
>in the (slightly edited) exchange below, provided for your
>entertainment, i demand the reinstatement of a comma in a course
>description.  i'm pleased to say that the stanford bulletin editor
>replied with a charming note conceding my point and restoring the
>comma, a decision applauded by both my department chair and the provost
>of the university.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>
>Begin forwarded message:
>
>>From: Arnold M. Zwicky <zwicky at csli.stanford.edu>
>>Date: June 11, 2004 6:06:55 PM PDT
>>To: [ML]
>>Cc: [various university administrators]
>>Subject: Re: LINGUIST 30Q
>>
>>On Jun 11, 2004, at 3:19 PM, [ML] wrote:
>>
>>>  Hi Arnold,
>>>  Stylistically, the Bulletin office is opposed to the addition of the
>>>comma in your course description. Would you like me to "take up the
>>>fight", so to speak, or is it alright without the comma?
>>
>>>  Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 14:50:21 -0700
>>>  To: [ML]
>>>  From: [SS]
>>>  Subject: Re: LINGUIST 30Q
>>>
>>>  Hi [M],
>>>  We do not use a comma before "including" or "such as" anywhere in
>>>the Bulletin. Descriptions are more like recipes or koans  than
>>>expository prose, and many of the style conventions that we use
>>>derive from that. Because we use extra commas in lists of 3 or more
>>>(i.e., before the "and"), I tend to minimize commas elsewhere unless
>>>there is a "meaning reason."
>>>
>>>Hi [S],
>>>
>>>  Arnold Zwicky approves of the LINGUIST 30Q course description,
>>>except would like to add an extra comma:
>>>   i'd like a comma in here:
>>>   The real system of English grammar and usage, including...
>>
>>I suppose I should point out the irony of [SS]'s pronouncement with
>>respect to the content of the course I am asking to teach.
>>
>>There are good reasons for having, or not having, a comma before
>>"including" or "such as" (the two cases are not parallel, by the way).
>>  A careful writer will consider these.  I wanted that comma because
>>the version the Registrar's office wants to insist on --
>>
>>   The real system of English grammar and usage including prepositions,
>>pronouns, modifiers, syntactic functions such as subjects, and forms
>>such as the accusative case.
>>
>>-- fails to distinguish between nonrestrictive modifiers (my
>>intention) and restrictive modifiers (the Registrar's version).  I
>>would silently correct the Registrar's version in material I was
>>editing for publication; it strikes me as semi-literate.
>>
>>The Registrar's office is, of course, entitled to do whatever it
>>wants.  It could decide that the "zw" in my family name is
>>unacceptable and insist on correcting it to "zaw".  It could decide
>>that my whole name is too peculiar and should be replaced by something
>>truly American, say, "Alex Adams".  But I don't have to cooperate.
>>Much as I like teaching Stanford undergraduates, and being paid for
>>it, I don't have to assent to arbitrary reworkings of what I write.
>>
>>The Registrar's office proposes to save commas before "including",
>>apparently because it's spent its comma quota on serial commas (a good
>>decision, by the way, though I can't imagine why this should be viewed
>>as a zero-sum game).  This is just a pig-ignorant decision to go for
>>consistency, in some utterly superficial sense.  (What person reading
>>the Bulletin could *possibly* notice that there was an inconsistency
>>in the use of commas before "including"?  Who the hell could care?  Is
>>there a problem with commas increasing the size of the Bulletin?  Get
>>a grip, people.)
>>
>>Look, one of the *points* of the course I am hoping to teach is that
>>official pronouncements on the use of language -- even including the
>>fine details of punctuation -- are not necessarily accurate, sensible,
>>or worthy of attention.  Some of them are just fucked.
>>
>>The Registrar's office is, as I said, entitled to do what it wants.
>>I, too, am a free agent.  If the Registrar's office insists on its
>>version, I choose to opt out.  I utterly love teaching SIS courses,
>>but not at the cost of being pushed around on points on which I am
>>something of an authority.
>>
>>Put back the comma or lose me.  I'm deadly serious about this.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 14 18:59:09 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 11:59:09 -0700
Subject: LINGUIST 30Q
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040614141432.01d0c990@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.115909.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 14, 2004, at 11:33 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> Wow, this gives me heart to object to the writing on our university
> website's instructions to international applicants.  It includes
> run-ons,
> fragments, missing commas, oversupplied commas, etc.--all of which
> native
> readers could disentangle but nonnatives could get, well, tangled up
> in.  I
> WILL complain now, though I'm dealing, I'm sure, with low-level page
> writers who may not even understand what I'm complaining about.

[SS] in my story is in fact a drastically over-educated person for the
job: a berkeley ph.d. in indonesian literature!  (i'm not making this
up.)  so it's no surprise i got such a thoughtful response.  even an
invitation to take me out for a cup of coffee.

i have had less pleasant resolutions to my resistance to pig-ignorant
editing.  for instance, several blood-soaked battles with editors who
refused to countenance "since" and "while" in logical, rather than
temporal, uses.  (if i remember correctly, the American Psychological
Association manual still stickles on this point.)

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), noting that he did in fact change
many people's  attitudes in courses this spring -- but it took ten
weeks, with a long slow build-up; also noting that he's watching the
encore bit to eddie izzard's Dress To Kill, which has a lot of very
funny (also profane) stuff about language in it


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Jun 14 19:11:48 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 15:11:48 -0400
Subject: LINGUIST 30Q
In-Reply-To: <EAAAFC09-BE34-11D8-8BE9-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.151148.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gee, I use logical "since" and "while" all the time and wondered why
editors changed them.  Maybe they're a sign of our generation. . . .

At 11:59 AM 6/14/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>On Jun 14, 2004, at 11:33 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>>Wow, this gives me heart to object to the writing on our university
>>website's instructions to international applicants.  It includes
>>run-ons,
>>fragments, missing commas, oversupplied commas, etc.--all of which
>>native
>>readers could disentangle but nonnatives could get, well, tangled up
>>in.  I
>>WILL complain now, though I'm dealing, I'm sure, with low-level page
>>writers who may not even understand what I'm complaining about.
>
>[SS] in my story is in fact a drastically over-educated person for the
>job: a berkeley ph.d. in indonesian literature!  (i'm not making this
>up.)  so it's no surprise i got such a thoughtful response.  even an
>invitation to take me out for a cup of coffee.
>
>i have had less pleasant resolutions to my resistance to pig-ignorant
>editing.  for instance, several blood-soaked battles with editors who
>refused to countenance "since" and "while" in logical, rather than
>temporal, uses.  (if i remember correctly, the American Psychological
>Association manual still stickles on this point.)
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), noting that he did in fact change
>many people's  attitudes in courses this spring -- but it took ten
>weeks, with a long slow build-up; also noting that he's watching the
>encore bit to eddie izzard's Dress To Kill, which has a lot of very
>funny (also profane) stuff about language in it


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Jun 14 20:36:22 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 16:36:22 -0400
Subject: lead-pipe cinch
In-Reply-To: <20040614040025.B031B228AE@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.163622.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry gives a quote as follows:

        >>>
 Larry Krakauer described it like this: =E2=80=9CWe =E2=80=98cinch=E2=
=80=99, or =E2=80=98cinch up=E2=80=99,=20
anything that is held tightly by a strap or rope. If you want to cinch=20
something really tightly, you put something like a stick, or perhaps a piece=
 of pipe,=20
through the rope loop that goes around the object to be held, and you twist=20
it. The length of pipe twisting the rope gives you enormous leverage. Lead p=
ipe=20
was a suitable size and was likely to be available.=E2=80=9D This sounds pos=
sible,=20
though essential evidence is lacking.
        <<<

Since lead pipe is indeed soft, I would expect a piece of lead pipe to be
LESS suitable for this purpose than a good solid stick of wood, which, as
long as it doesn't break, can be relied on to keep its shape and transmit
all your torque to the loop, rather than absorbing some of it by bending
and/or compressing.

-- Mark Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 14 21:20:26 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 14:20:26 -0700
Subject: LINGUIST 30Q
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20040614150958.01d1d0d0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.142026.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 14, 2004, at 12:11 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> Gee, I use logical "since" and "while" all the time and wondered why
> editors changed them.  Maybe they're a sign of our generation. . . .

the logical uses are innovative -- but back the usual donkey's years,
according to MWDEU, which cites shakespeare etc.  the proscriptive
backlash, based on the potential for ambiguity, seems to date from
70-100 years ago.  the true innovation is the passion with which these
usages are attacked.

so, no, beverly, our generation is not the problem.

as for the ambiguity problem, i should note -- as geoff pullum pointed
out to me some long time ago -- that this is another one of those cases
(the positioning of "only" and "even" is another) where editors cite
ambiguity as the reason for avoiding some usage, but seem to be utterly
flawless in determining the writer's intent for the purposes of
"correction".  i have never had an editor who failed to understand
*perfectly* the intended meanings of "while" and "since" in my writing.
  think about that.

perhaps this should be labeled Paradoxical Acquired Editorial Agnosia.
it's paradoxical in the same way my partner's inability to read the
word CALIFORNIA (and only the word CALIFORNIA) was paradoxical.  he
believed he lived somewhere back east, in what the family thought of as
New Ohioylvania, some amalgam of new jersey, ohio, and pennsylvania, so
the fact that virtually every car he saw had a CALIFORNIA license plate
was threatening to this theory, and he fixed the contradiction by
blocking the word from the top level of his consciousness.  but the
bottom line here is that to be unable to read (just) the word
CALIFORNIA, you have to be able to read the word CALIFORNIA.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), recalling the claimed inability of
some otherwise intelligent people to be able to understand varieties of
english with multiple negation


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Jun 14 22:47:07 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 18:47:07 -0400
Subject: LINGUIST 30Q
In-Reply-To: <A78120A6-BE48-11D8-8BE9-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.14.JUN.2004.184707.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 02:20 PM 6/14/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>On Jun 14, 2004, at 12:11 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>>Gee, I use logical "since" and "while" all the time and wondered why
>>editors changed them.  Maybe they're a sign of our generation. . . .
>
>the logical uses are innovative -- but back the usual donkey's years,
>according to MWDEU, which cites shakespeare etc.  the proscriptive
>backlash, based on the potential for ambiguity, seems to date from
>70-100 years ago.  the true innovation is the passion with which these
>usages are attacked.
>
>so, no, beverly, our generation is not the problem.
>
>as for the ambiguity problem, i should note -- as geoff pullum pointed
>out to me some long time ago -- that this is another one of those cases
>(the positioning of "only" and "even" is another) where editors cite
>ambiguity as the reason for avoiding some usage, but seem to be utterly
>flawless in determining the writer's intent for the purposes of
>"correction".  i have never had an editor who failed to understand
>*perfectly* the intended meanings of "while" and "since" in my writing.
>  think about that.
>
>perhaps this should be labeled Paradoxical Acquired Editorial Agnosia.
>it's paradoxical in the same way my partner's inability to read the
>word CALIFORNIA (and only the word CALIFORNIA) was paradoxical.  he
>believed he lived somewhere back east, in what the family thought of as
>New Ohioylvania, some amalgam of new jersey, ohio, and pennsylvania, so
>the fact that virtually every car he saw had a CALIFORNIA license plate
>was threatening to this theory, and he fixed the contradiction by
>blocking the word from the top level of his consciousness.  but the
>bottom line here is that to be unable to read (just) the word
>CALIFORNIA, you have to be able to read the word CALIFORNIA.
>
>arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), recalling the claimed inability of
>some otherwise intelligent people to be able to understand varieties of
>english with multiple negation


Right.  I still get undergrads occasionally who believe what their h.s.
teachers told them:  two negatives = positive; three = negative; four =
positive, etc.  (I'm extrapolating: Though no one has ever gone that far in
reporting this "rule," the "logic" would follow.)


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Jun 15 04:11:18 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 00:11:18 -0400
Subject: "Mutt" etymology (speculative) addendum: more "mutton[loving]
 dogs"
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040530133335.02f22eb0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.001118.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here are a few more variants on "mutton dog" = "sheep-killing dog".

----------

_Marion Daily Star_ (Marion OH), 14 March 1881: p. 4(?), col. 4:

<<Mutton loving dogs have just cost Summit county Commissioners $855 for
sheep.>>

----------

_Decatur Morning Review_ (Decatur IL), 27 Feb. 1891: p. 4(?), col. 5:

<<John Nichols ... has been paid $145 from the "Dog License fund," as
indemnity for the murder of numerous valuable sheep by mutton loving canines.>>

----------

_Wellsboro Agitator_ (Wellsboro PA), 26 Aug. 1891: p. 3(?), col. 3:

<<Last Wednesday morning Mr. William Staats, of Delmar, discovered two dogs
worrying his sheep, and he shot one dead and wounded the other. The dead
dog was found to have a collar bearing Mr. Robinson's name. The other
mutton loving canine belonged to Mr. Lyman P. Chamberlain.>>

----------

_Indiana Democrat_ (Indiana PA), 29 Sep. 1897: p. 1, col. 3:

<<Green township was favored last week by the marauding mutton canines ....>>

----------

_Adams County News_ (Gettysburg PA), 17 July 1909: p. 7(?), col. 6:

<<Watch the dogs that come around the flock. They may be mutton lovers.>>

----------

That has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? "Out of my way, you mangy
mutton-lover!"

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Jun 15 04:23:36 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 00:23:36 -0400
Subject: "Lead-pipe cinch" (1889)
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.002336.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here is an early example of "lead-pipe cinch" = "sure bet":

----------

_Decatur Morning Review_ (Decatur IL), 17 Dec. 1889: p. 5(?), col. 3:

[legislators are bribed by deliberately losing to them at poker]

<<The money was transferred in a unique way. The briber and bribed would
sit down to a game of poker and a "lead-pipe cinch" was nothing to the sure
thing the legislators had.>>

----------

As a possible irrelevancy, I note that a card game called "cinch" was
popular around this time.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 15 05:36:06 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 01:36:06 EDT
Subject: Dodgeball (1914) or Dodge Ball (1903)
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.013606.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DODGEBALL--331,000 Google hits, 10,500 Google Groups hits
DODGE BALL--58,000 Google hits, 12,700 Google Groups hits

   "Dodgeball" is not in the OED at all.
   "Dodge ball" is not an OED entry, but is mentioned in one single 1986
citation.
   Where can I write to the North American editor of the OED?  Can you throw
stuff at him?
   Merriam-Webster has "ca. 1922."  OUTING, in the American Periodical Series
Online, might have it.
   Soon to be a major motion picture, in a theatre near you.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("dodgeball")
    1.  GIRL ATHLETES AT CENTRAL.; General Sport Program Includes Four
Basketball Contests.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Mar 7, 1914. p. 2 (1 page)
:
   Following is a list of the several events: Running race, led by Miss
Beulah Smith; dodgeball, Misses Dorothy Johnson and Estelle Thomas;...

    2.  School Activities; The contest on school activities will be
continued. Write about the special activities of your school and win some spending
money. Central High. Prize, $2. Lackey High School, Indian Head, Md. Prize, $2.
THE ROBIN.
The Washington Post (1877. Oct 9, 1921. p. 46 (1 page):
   We practice basketball, dodgeball and other games,...

    3.  THE STORY OF THE FOUR H CLUB; Prize, $1 Prize, $1 Prize, $1
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 20, 1921. p. 69 (1
page)

    4.  ROSEDALE PLAYGROUNDS.; A TRIP TO GETTYSBURG. THE THRALL OF "LOVE AT
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug 27, 1922. p. 53 (1
page)

    5.  HYATTSVILLE HIGH CAPUTRES CARNIVAL
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 20, 1923. p. 4 (1
page)

    6.  THE Sportswoman
By DOROTHY E. GREENE. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Dec
22, 1924. p. S3 (1 page)

    7.  The Sportswoman
By DOROTHY E. GREENE. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr
16, 1925. p. 19 (1 page)

    8.  Swimming Now Minor Sport at Duke U.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 9, 1925. p. 16 (1
page)

    9.  The Sportswoman
By DOROTHY E. GREENE. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug
4, 1925. p. 15 (1 page)

    10. The Sportswoman
By DOROTHY E. GREENE. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Aug
18, 1925. p. 15 (1 page)


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("dodge ball")
    1.  CRISP SAYINGS.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 2, 1887. p. 4 (1
page)

    2.  OPERATIC STARS AT BASEBALL.; Men of the Alice Nielsen Company Try
Conclusions on the Diamond.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Apr 28, 1899. p. 8 (1
page)

    3.  American Art Institute in Paris.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Mar 31, 1900. p. 10 (1
page)

    4.  VACATION SCHOOL WORK; Features of the Board of Education's Summer
Scheme. Playgrounds, Their Rules, and Their Recreations -- Methods That Various
Teachers Use with Children.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 21, 1903. p. 12 (1
page):
   "When the day school is finished we stop the stories and get to play.  We
have basket ball, dodge ball, and every other sort of game you can imagine to
be fitting for a school playground."

    5.  BOY FOOLS SHERIFF.
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 22, 1903. p.
2 (1 page)

    6.  DARING ON THE DIAMOND; SUFFERING IN GRAND STAND; Horrors of
Earthquake Almost Forgotten by 2,113 Brave Souls Rooted to the Spot During the Baseball
Game Between Centurys and Metropolitans.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 3, 1906. p. 5 (1 page)


    7.  CHILDREN HAVE OUTING; Pupils of Third Division Have Frolic at River
View. PRIZES FOR BOYS AND GIRLS All Records Smashed in Running and Jumping
Contests -- Only Blot on Programme Is Failure to Play Off Ball Games, but They Are
Now Scheduled for Next Wednesday -- Prize Winners.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Jun 9, 1907. p. 16 (1
page)

    8.  PLAYGROUND PUPILS SHOW THEIR SKILL; Thousands of Children Give the
First of a Series of Exhibitions. FANCY DANCES A FEATURE Spectators Applaud Folk
Movements, in Which the Public School Pupils Have Been Instructed.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 16, 1908. p. 3 (1
page)

    9.  1,000 IN FIELD GAMES; Children Crowd Playgrounds at Season's Last
Events. EXHIBITIONS OF FINE WORK Instructors Show Baskets, Doilies, and Other
Things Made During Summer. Girls Give Fancy Dances and Boys Have Baseball and
Other Athletic Con- tests -- New Apparatus at Howard.
The Washington Post. Sep 17, 1910. p. 2 (1 page)

    10. FLETCHER'S DAY IS AT HAND, BUT PROMOTER IS NOT HERE; Contracts and
$10,000 Bonus Money Should Be Shown to Third Leaguers Today -- Rumors of Another
Sale of Phillies Are Heard.
BY JOE S. JACKSON.. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb
10, 1911. p. 8 (1 page)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 15 06:24:30 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 02:24:30 EDT
Subject: "Famous for being famous" (1973)
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.022430.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FAMOUS FOR BEING FAMOUS--3,380 Google hits,   1,470 Google Groups hits
  
"Paris Hilton--who is famous, well, for being famous--returns to TV this week 
in 'The SImple Life 2: Road Trip.'"
--NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, 13 June 2004, pg. 3, col. 1.
    
  
   Fred Shapiro probably has this.  Either Andy Warhol said it or it was said 
of Andy Warhol.  I couldn't easily find an exact citation.
   8:30 a.m.-8 p.m. of parking tickets in the Bronx for a guy who once solved 
"the Big Apple."  Meanwhile, my multi-millionaire ex-wife, now married to 
someone else, "famous for being famous," stars in GIGLI.  

    
(GOOGLE)
Matt & Andrej Koymasky - Famous GLTB - Andy Warhol... Joe Dallesandro and 
Andy Warhol. Andy Warhol, is the supposed inventor of "famous for being famous
"... whether lasting or not. Andy's ... 
andrejkoymasky.com/liv/fam/biow1/warh1.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages   
  
Emeril's Miami Beach - Emeril Lagasse Comes to South Beach... had great 
God-given talent; Andy Warhol had a smidgen of talent and a great marketing sense. 
He invented the phrase ?famous for being famous.? And now we ... 
www.southbeach-usa.com/restaurants/ misc/emeril/emerils-miami-beach.htm - 21k 
- Cached - Similar pages    

CHP (Christian Heritage Party of Canada)... Celebrity is the TV-era 
phenomenon that sees people as newsworthy only because they are, in Andy Warhol's 
memorable phrase, "famous for being famous." So TV ... 
www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/chp/comm11-02.html - 7k - Cached - Similar pages 

SOFT CELL... Everyone knows Warhol?s quote ?famous for 15 minutes?, but the 
other Warhol quote that people should rediscover is ?famous for being famous?
. ... 
www.contemporary-magazine.com/november/softcell.html - 21k - Cached - Similar 
pages   
 
Canadian Fundie Digest (est. 27/04/04)... Celebrity is the TV-era phenomenon 
that sees people as newsworthy only because they are, in Andy Warhol?s 
memorable phrase, ?famous for being famous.? ... 
canadianfundie.blogspot.com/ - 94k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
Popdirt.com - Jennifer Lopez Is Famous For Being Famous
... Vote for us by visiting the following top site: O-Town. Jennifer Lopez Is 
Famous
For Being Famous Posted on Wednesday, November 13 @ 23:09:15 PST by MusicMan. 
... 
popdirt.com/article10037.html - 21k - Cached - Similar pages 

Today's Top 10: Britney Spears, Byonce, Clay Aiken...
... And then there's Jennifer Lopez Her movies have done terribly recently, 
the music
is ... She's becoming sort of like Zsa Zsa Gabor -- famous for being famous. 
... 
top40.about.com/library/weekly/aatopten120103.htm - 27k - Cached - Similar 
pages 

The MacMinute Caf?: J-Who?
... J-Who? Ok...Why is Jennifer Lopez in the news so much? Seriously? Why ... 
coverage?
Aside from being famous for being famous, why all the noise? ... 
www.macminute.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showflat. pl?Cat=&Board=lounge&
Number=174408&page=11&... - 27k - Jun 13, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages 

Kin's Kouch: Famous for being famous
... January 21, 2004. Famous for being famous. Hey, Adam! I'll meet you
at the corner of Paris Hilton Boulevard and Nicole Richie Avenue. ... 
kinskouch.virtualsushi.us/archives/000387.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
The Daily Nugget - Paris Hilton Sex Tape Review
... The media says that the video is going to hurt Paris's career, but
I ask, "what career?" This girl is just famous for being famous. ... 
www.dailynugget.com/000542.php - Similar pages 

Paris Hilton fan page, stolen sex video download
... eyes, like if you have confidence, and you're a nice person and sweet, 
and you're
funny, I think that's sexy." --Paris Claim to Fame: Famous for being famous. 
... 
www.visitcelebrities.com/paris-hilton/ - 8k - Cached - Similar pages 

   
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Arts-the One Stable Currency
By Eric Larrabee. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 2, 
1973. p. 145 (1 page):
   Perhaps this point is worth elaborating.  The present period is one which 
puts peculiar emphasis on image and personality.  We even have a concept 
called "celebrity," which consists in being famous for being famous.  In the 
atmosphere this breeds it is not surprising that honest achievement at something 
truly difficult becomes unusually rare and admirable.
(...)
   _Eric Larrabee is executive director of the New York State Council on the 
Arts.  This article was excerpted from a talk at the Memorial Art Gallery in 
Rochester._
     
    2.  Television: The Role Of the 'Anchorman'
David Brinkley. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: 
Apr 1, 1974. p. A22 (1 page)   
     
    3.  Television: The Role Of the 'Anchorman'
David Brinkley. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: 
Apr 8, 1974. p. A22 (1 page):
   I believe the television anchorman becomes famous, but not for his power 
to influence uncritical masses of people, and not for his ability to change the 
social or political order or to elect a candidate or defeat one.  So what is 
he famous for?  Mainly, he is famous for being famous.
     
    4.  Writers and Sports: In This League, Pete Rose Outhits Gustave 
Flaubert
By JOHN LEONARD. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 30, 
1975. p. 52 (1 page):
      _Whole World Watching_
   Why?  Of the many good writers who slum in sports, Mr. (Wilfrid--ed.) 
Sheed is most explicit in extenuations.  Celebrityhood, he suggests--the quality 
of being famous for being famous--ought to be pondered in its manifold 
latencies.
     
    5.  STAGE VIEW; 'Anne Frank' Shouldn't Be 'Quentin Crisp' STAGE VIEW 'An 
Evening With Quentin Crisp' 
WALTER KERR. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 7, 1979. 
p. D3 (2 pages):
   He (Quentin Crisp--ed.) belabors the proposition that there are fashions 
in ideas as well as in clothes (was there ever a time when that wasn't 
self-evident?) and is not above borrowing stock phrases ("Andy Warhol is famous for 
being famous").
     
    6.  Bogie's Widow Famous For Being Famous; Bogie's Widow Famous For Being 
Famous 
RICHARD COHEN. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jan 
25, 1979. p. C1 (2 pages)   


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 15 07:03:09 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 03:03:09 EDT
Subject: Water-boarding (May 2004)
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.030309.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WATER BOARDING + TORTURE--649 Google hits, 72 Google Groups hits
WATERBOARDING + TORTURE--114 Google hits,   10 Google Groups hits
    
   I haven't yet checked "water-boarding" on FACTIVA.
   Recommend it to the Word Spy.  "Meanderthal?"  Larry Horn posted that here 
two years ago!  
    
  
(GOOGLE)
http://www.andrewsullivan.com/
Tuesday, June 15, 2004
 
TORTURE: Well, we're getting closer to understanding what's been going on. 
Here's a nugget from Newsweek: 
> White House officials told reporters that such abstract legal reasoning was 
> insignificant and did not reflect the president's orders. But NEWSWEEK has 
> learned that Yoo's August 2002 memo was prompted by CIA questions about what 
> to do with a top Qaeda captive, Abu Zubaydah, who had turned uncooperative. 
> And it was drafted after White House meetings convened by George W. Bush's 
> chief counsel, Alberto Gonzales, along with Defense Department general counsel 
> William Haynes and David Addington, Vice President Dick Cheney's counsel, who 
> discussed specific interrogation techniques, says a source familiar with the 
> discussions. Among the methods they found acceptable: "water-boarding," or 
> dripping water into a wet cloth over a suspect's face, which can feel like 
> drowning; and threatening to bring in more-brutal interrogators from other 
> nations.
This kind of tactic was designed specifically for a few top al Qaeda 
captives; but it was apparently transferred to Abu Ghraib as well.   
    

  
(GOOGLE GROUPS) ("waterboarding")
Re: Enterprise's Season 3 Deconstructed
... (OK, class, raise your hands if you know what waterboarding is.) I am ... 
the show's
content think it is reasonable for a Star Trek captain to torture a prisoner 
... 
rec.arts.startrek.current - Jun 7, 2004 by Edward McArdle - View Thread (14 
articles)
  
The Neo-Con Iraq Glossary
... conditions for interrogation: Torture. Related terms: "stress positions" 
(eg, "If
you fall off the box, you'll be electrocuted!"); "waterboarding" (Not as ... 
uk.current-events.terrorism - Jun 4, 2004 by Nes - View Thread (1 article
  
)Did Bush Intentionally Mislead Supreme Court?
... to the Times, those practices include something called "waterboarding" -- 
a process
by ... A "pedestrian" definition of "torture and that sort of thing" would 
also ... 
alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater - May 20, 2004 by Gandalf Grey - View 
Thread (1 article
  
)The Bush Regime: Covering Up the Coverup
... given little guidance about the means (short of lethal torture) deemed 
appropriate. ... These
included waterboarding, in which a detainee is pushed under water and ... 
alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater - May 17, 2004 by Gandalf Grey - View 
Thread (1 article)
  
Re: Nick Berg beheading video is fake
... would be less likely to be treated improperly, and torture was less ... 
Times yesterday,
which reported that CIA interrogators used "waterboarding" - a euphemism ... 
alt.support.marriage - May 17, 2004 by Xenos the elder - View Thread (34 
articles
  
)Re: Iraqi In Custody Tortured To Death
... html According to today's New York Times, the CIA subjects its "high 
profile" torture
victims to such medieval practices as "waterboarding"--strapping the ... 
alt.impeach.bush - May 17, 2004 by Theo Brady Bunch - View Thread (3 
articles)


(GOOGLE GROUPS) ("water-boarding")
Poor al Qeada
... that CIA interrogators used graduated methods of persuasion like "water 
boarding."
(Almost sounds ... had information that would prevent 9/11, would you torture 
him ... 
ia.talk.misc - May 13, 2004 by Dan Larsen - View Thread (15 articles)
  
It's Obvious Prison Torture Wasn't Isolated, Bu$h Lied YET AGAIN ... 
... water boarding" in which the prisoner is forcibly pushed under water to 
the point
that he believes he will drown. "This would be a clear case of torture," ... 
alt.fan.howard-stern - May 13, 2004 by ---= ???m? ??? K??0?? =--- - View 
Thread (3 articles)
  
OT - Are these War Crimes?
... use of harsh interrogation techniques, including the water-boarding 
tactic used ... in
violation of American statutes that prohibit torture, degrading treatment or 
... 
soc.culture.thai - May 13, 2004 by ian - View Thread (3 articles)
  
[NYTr] RHC News Summary - May 13, 2004
... Representative Jane Harman said she saw "cruel, sadistic torture." 
Democratic Senator
Bill ... who was subjected to a technique known as water boarding, in which a 
... 
misc.activism.progressive - May 13, 2004 by nytr at tania.blythe-systems.com - 
View Thread (1 article
  
)CIA Torture ("interrogations") are "too brutal" says even the FBI
... a detainee who was subjected to a technique known as water boarding, in 
which ... the
secret interrogation rules say the methods stop short of torture and serious 
... 
talk.politics.misc - May 13, 2004 by Economic Democracy - View Thread (3 
articles)
  
Did the DOJ lie to the SC?!(NDC)
... agents' use of (in Justice Ginsburg's words) "mild torture." Today, 
however ... graduated
levels of force, including a technique known as 'water boarding,' in which 
... 
rec.music.gdead - May 13, 2004 by John Doherty - <A HREF="http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=jgnospamdoherty-38558A.10443513052004%40netnews.comcast.net&rnum=30View Thread (1 article)


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 15 13:41:02 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 08:41:02 -0500
Subject: Gitmoize
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.084102.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From wire service article on Yahoo news.

Gitmo is slang for Guantanamo Bay, where many Iraqi and Afghani prisoners
are held.  Karpinski is Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, who (until she recently
was relieved) commanded Abu Ghraib prison.

"Karpinski said that during a visit to Iraq in September, Miller - still the
commander at the Guantanamo Bay prison - spoke of wanting to "Gitmoize" Abu
Ghraib by applying the Cuban facility's regimented detention and
interrogation techniques.


"He talked about Gitmoizing in terms of what the (military police) were
going to do; he was going to select the MPs, they were going to receive
special training," she said. "


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Jun 15 14:54:20 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 09:54:20 -0500
Subject: peacenik
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.095420.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists September 1963 p 21-22
"What Price Peace" by W. H. Ferry

"I am a peacenik, but the endeavors of the many
peacenik organizations with which I am associated look
more and more like prayer wheels whirling in front of
a bursting dam."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 15 15:52:25 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 11:52:25 -0400
Subject: Chaos in the food column (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <20040614124202.J87618@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.115225.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:43 PM -0400 6/14/04, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>I have just sent the following letter to the New York Times letters column,
>with CC to William Safire:
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 12:41:33 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Mark A. Mandel <mamandel at ldc.upenn.edu>
>To: letters at nytimes.com
>Cc: onlanguage at nytimes.com
>Subject: Chaos in the food column
>
>In Sunday's magazine, Jason Epstein writes of the pioneering cookbook
>written by Buwei Yang Chao and her husband, Professor Yuen Ren Chao. I had
>the good fortune of knowing them slightly during my days as a graduate
>student in linguistics at the University of California, Berkeley, and the
>quotation and comments near the end of the article recalled to me Professor
>Chao's sense of humor:
>
>         >>>
>"Professor Chao [added] this footnote in his own initials: 'The same spoken
>word [for what we now call won-ton in English], written differently, means
>in fact the nebulous state of confusion when the world began,' an elevated
>thought to accompany your next bowl of won-ton soup.
>
>"'How to Cook and Eat in Chinese' is no longer in print, and the Chaos may
>no longer be with us."
>         <<<
>
>I would add: The same _English written_ word that refers to Professor and
>Mrs. Chao, _pronounced_ differently, "means in fact the nebulous state of
>confusion when the world began," an amusing thought to reflect on as you
>reread their cookbook or eat your next bowl of won-ton soup. I feel sure
>that that is exactly what Professor Chao had in mind when writing this
>footnote over his own name.
>
>Mark A. Mandel, Research Administrator
>Biomedical Information Extraction, Linguistic Data Consortium
>University of Pennsylvania
>[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

Nice.  Just a bit more Chaos Theory...

There were two other significant points related to the cookbook
missed in the Times article:

(1) while Epstein does comment on the book's introduction of a new
sex-indefinite third person singular pronoun--
====================
Chao was a Chinese doctor who ''never stirred an egg'' until she went
to the Tokyo Women's Medical College, where she found ''Japanese food
so uneatable that I had to cook my own meals.'' She adds, in an
author's note in the first edition, that ''by the time I became a
doctor I also became something of a cook.''  Since she admitted that
she could hardly speak, much less write, English, it must have been
her scholarly husband who wrote (in his wife's name) ''eatable,''
from the Old English ''etan,'' rather than the more pretentious
''edible,'' imported from the Latin edibilis. In fact, it is obvious
that the professor wrote virtually the entire book in his wife's
name. That also explains why he coined the pronoun hse for he/she to
accommodate himself and his wife, given the lack of a third-person
singular pronoun of common gender in English except the neutral
''one.''
====================
--he misses the point, which is explained by Buwei and/or Yuen-Ren
Chao on p. xxiv of the introduction:

"_Hse_:  my usual way of pronouncing _he_ and _she_ without
distinction when I speak English."

Thus, the indefinite third singular is motivated by the facts of
dialect-specific phonological neutralization.

(2) perhaps of more interest to linguists than foodie-consumers of
the Times Magazine food column is the fact that what is (allegedly)
the one recipe contributed by Professor Y.-R. Chao involves a
wonderful take-off on descriptive linguistics.  Dr. Buwei Chao
explains (p. 133):

"Stirred eggs may be said to be the most everyday dish made by
applying the most everyday method to the most everyday material...As
this is the only dish my husband cooks well, and he says that he
either cooks a dish well or not at all, I shall let him tell how it
is done."
...
and Prof. Chao begins the instructions for his six-egg recipe as follows:

"Either shell or unshell the eggs by knocking one against another in
any order." [footnote 1]

[fn. 1] "Since, when two eggs collide, only one of them will break,
it will be necessary to use a seventh egg with which to break the
sixth. If, as it may very well happen, the seventh egg breaks first
instead of the sixth, an expedient will be simply to use the seventh
one and put away the sixth. An alternate procedure is to delay your
numbering system and define that egg as the sixth egg which breaks
after the fifth egg."

and, at the end of the recipe...

"To test whether the cooking has been done properly, observe the
person served. If he [sic!] utters a voiced bilabial nasal consonant
with a slow falling intonation, it is good. If he utters the syllable
_yum_ in reduplicated form, it is very good." --Y. R. C.


=======
Wonder what the non-linguist readers of the cookbook must have thought.

larry


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Jun 15 17:24:58 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 13:24:58 -0400
Subject: peacenik
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.132458.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This 1963 quote is very useful.  OEDs and MW11 have 1965.  Third Barnhart
Dictionary of New English (1990) cites 1963.  At the time we were reading
BofAS on a regular basis.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Tue Jun 15 18:03:14 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:03:14 -0400
Subject: peacenik
In-Reply-To: <6D0A4730B029C545AC8DE97D7F22049D01219615@rdec-exch8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.140314.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The forthcoming Oxford Dictionary of American Political Slang has
"peacenik" slightly earlier:

1963 N.Y. Times Mag. May 19 p. 17: Peace groups bud (and wither) with
such frequency that even the experts can't keep track of them. They
come in all shapes and sizes--professional groups...religious groups,
demonstrators and nondemonstrators, sophisticated groups and peacenik
amateurs.

--
Grant Barrett

Assistant Editor, U.S. Dictionaries, Oxford University Press
Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang
Editor, "Hatchet Jobs and Hardball: The Oxford Dictionary of American
Political Slang" (2004)

Editor, Double-Tongued Word Wrester
http://www.doubletongued.org/

Webmaster, American Dialect Society
http://www.americandialect.org/


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Jun 15 18:34:09 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:34:09 -0400
Subject: peacenik
In-Reply-To: <200406151803.i5FI3HN2010143@pantheon-po02.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.143409.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Grant Barrett wrote:

> The forthcoming Oxford Dictionary of American Political Slang has
> "peacenik" slightly earlier:

When is the ODAPS going to be published?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Tue Jun 15 20:05:45 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:05:45 -0400
Subject: peacenik
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0406151433090.24422-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.160545.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Official pub date September, but the real street date should be end of
July or early August.

Grant

On Jun 15, 2004, at 14:34, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>
> When is the ODAPS going to be published?


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Jun 15 23:20:06 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:20:06 -0400
Subject: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.192006.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

Dear Jim,

I just asked him, and he does not pronounce the h in heirloom.. On the other
hand he told me sodder means exactly what I thought it meant.

Then, of course, there is the old Brit and Aussie phrase "bless 'em all"
which the Brits would use as a euphemism for "sod 'em all" while we in the
US would use it as a euphemism for "fuck 'em all".

My guess is that my Aussie friends would use the word "fuck" rather than
"sod" but I do not know.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: [porsh] and other British English (was: Coup de grace)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> In a message dated  Fri, 11 Jun 2004 12:08:23 -0400,  Page Stephens
> <hpst at EARTHLINK.NET> writes:
> >
> >  It is difficult to generalize about all of the different pronunciations
in
> >  British English dialects but one which intrigues me is the way that an
> >  English friend and I differ in the consonants we do or do not
pronounce.
> >
> >  He always pronounces the h in herbs
>
> Does he also pronounce the "h" in "heirloom"?
>
>            - Jim Landau


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Jun 16 00:01:50 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:01:50 -0400
Subject: antedating of "roller coaster" 1884
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.200150.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

M-W and OED use 1888.

Most webpages about roller coasters say that the Coney Island one in 1884 was first.  I think the fellow even had a patent.  I'll check that out later.

But..........they forgot to name it "roller coaster" or at least to make sure the papers in the US gave them credit.

Instead, from 7 August, 1884  Frederick(MD) _Weekly News_  6/1-2   

(dateline Philadelphia, Pa. July 29, 1884 referring to Fairmount Park)

<<Additional signs tell them that this is the "Wonderful Roller Coaster.">>   

Just for good measure, the correspondent used the exact term again later in the article.  It cost a nickel to ride, covered 500 feet in 11 seconds, and was 28 ft. high at the tallest point.  And you came back to where you started.

Sam Clements


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 16 00:55:54 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:55:54 -0400
Subject: "too good a shooters" redux, for the masses
Message-ID: <TUE.15.JUN.2004.205554.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This time with a mass noun after the indefinite article rather than a
plural.  This was ESPN Baseball Tonight's commentator Harold Reynolds
last night commenting on the aborted pitching duel between the young
Cubs' ace Mark Prior and the old Astros' ace Roger Clemens:

"What a compliment to Roger Clemens, to be compared at 40 to a young
pitcher like Mark Prior--that's quite a stuff he's got."

And just in case we weren't sure he could actually use a mass noun
like "stuff" in this construction, he went on to say of someone else,
I forget who, that he had "not as good a stuff".

Larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 16 06:18:44 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 02:18:44 EDT
Subject: Romesco sauce (1980); Rasam, Kachumber; Chef Talk & Perpendiculars
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.021844.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Some food items of interest.
    
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PERPENDICULARS
  
   Someone at work told me that the catering trade calls some types of 
nibbles (that you eat while standing) as "perpendiculars."  I couldn't find much on 
it.
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------  
ROMESCO SAUCE
  
ROMESCO SAUCE--4,480 Google hits, 66 Google Groups hits
      
   "Romesco sauce" is featured in Wednesday's (today's) New York Times.  The 
OED, as usual, doesn't have it.  OED is working on "P," so maybe there will be 
hope soon.
   I haven't yet "hit the books" with this one, so the dating here is just a 
quick guide.
  
  
(NEW YORK TIMES)
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/16/dining/162CREX.html
Recipe: Romesco Sauce
Published: June 16, 2004

Time: 45 minutes
Extra virgin olive oil 
3  1/2-inch-thick slices day-old sourdough bread 
5 ancho chilies 
1 cup blanched almonds, toasted 
5 cloves garlic, peeled 
3 cups (after juices are drained) canned plum tomatoes 
Juice of 1 lemon 
 1/2 cup red wine vinegar 
2 tablespoons paprika 
Salt.   
  
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) (31 hits for "Romesco sauce")
    1.  Restaurants; A tale of two cafes: Spanish and French. Cafe San Martin 
Cafe Argenteuil 
Moira Hodgson. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 25, 
1980. p. C18 (1 page) :
   Parrillada, perfectly broiled lobster, scallops and striped bass, all 
slightly crispy but moist in the middle and garnished with mussels and clams, came 
with the traditional romesco sauce expertly made with paprika, pimiento, 
garlic and vinegar.
    
    2.  Read All About It!; Sifting Out the Best of This Year's Cookbooks 
COOKBOOKS COOKBOOKS Home Is Where the Books Are 
By Phyllis C. Richman. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, 
D.C.: Dec 15, 1982. p. E1 (3 pages) 
     
    3.  LAUREL'S KITCHEN
By Carol Flinders 1/2 teaspoon salt Special to The Washington Post. The 
Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jun 10, 1987. p. E3 (1 page) 
 
    
    4.  THE WASHINGTON POST INDEX
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jun 10, 1987. p. 
A2 (1 page) 
     
    5.  Where Some Will Go for the Gold, Many Will Go Out to Eat; Where Some 
Go for the Gold, Many Go Out to Eat 
By BRYAN MILLER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 13, 
1992. p. C1 (2 pages) 
First page:  Catalan cooking is among the most refined and inventive in 
Spain, rivaled only by that of the Basques. (...)  Among the dishes one encounters 
repeatedly are salt cod with romesco sauce, snails prepared various ways, 
spinach with pine nuts and raisins, squid casseroles, cod bunuelos (a lighter 
version of fritters), duck with pears, pa amb romaquet (bread rubbed with fresh 
tomato and doused with olive oil), and numerous variations on paella.
     
    6.  Restaurants; A rustic place where groups can share the Iberian 
institution of tapas, with rice pudding to boot. 
Bryan Miller. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 27, 
1992. p. C18 (1 page):
   The only letdown was the lifeless sauce.  Grilled salmon was well executed 
and presented with two sauces, a good aioli (garlic mayonnaise) and an anemic 
romesco sauce (a Catalan specialty made with olive oil, tomatoes, peppers and 
ground almonds).
     
    7.  Someone's In the Kitchen With . . . a Book; KITCHEN BOOKSHELF 
Someone's in the Kitchen With . . . a Book 
By NANCY HARMON JENKINS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: 
Dec 9, 1992. p. C1 (2 pages) 
     
    8.  Restaurants |; The latest in a gaggle of Park Avenue South bistros A 
neighborly setting in SoHo. 
Bryan Miller. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 9, 
1993. p. C20 (1 page) 
     
    9.  Restaurants; The energy and exotic flavors of Barcelona, but with a 
decided tilt toward New York. 
| Ruth Reichl. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 7, 
1994. p. C26 (1 page) 
     
    10. Flavor and Drama of Whole Roasted Fish
By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: 
Jul 24, 1994. p. WC12 (1 page)     
     
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
RASAM; KATCHUMBER/KACHUMBER
  
KATCHUMBER--82 Google hits, 3 Google Groups hits
KACHUMBER--1,280 Google hits, 48 Google Groups hits
(Neither is in OED)
RASAM + SOUP--3,830 Google hits, 140 Google Groups hits
("Rasam" is not in the OED.  The British once ruled India, so it makes sense 
that some words...never mind.)
  
   Today, I went to Baruch College after work (where I nearly collapsed into 
sleep) to volunteer for the Republican National Convention.  While at "Curry 
Hill," I tried Chennai Gardens, 129 East 27th Street (between Park & 
Lexington), "A southern Indian restaurant, totally vegetarian...and kosher too!"  It's 
so-so.  Not as good as the Curry Leaf a block away.
   There were only two salads:  "Garden Salad" and "Katchumber--chopped salad 
of mixed vegetables with a spicy vinegar & lemon dressing...3.95."
   There were four soups, but only one of interest:  "Rasam--a traditional 
spicy tamarind lentil soup from Chennai."
    
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
No hits for "kachumber" or "katchumber."
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("rasam" and "soup")
    1.  Laurel's Kitchen
By Carol Flinders. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: 
Aug 24, 1983. p. E20 (1 page) 
        
    2.  Brightening the Morning After: Count the Ways; Brightening Morning 
After: Count the Ways 
By NANCY HARMON JENKINS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: 
Jan 1, 1986. p. 29 (2 pages) 
    
    3.  South India's Regional Cuisines; Cuisines of India 
By JULIE SAHNI. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 21, 
1990. p. XX12 (2 pages) 
First page:  Vegetarian dishes, which originated in the Tanjore courts of 
Dravidian kings, are collectively known as South Indian vegetarian, or Tamil 
food.  Throughout the south, dishes like sambar, kotto and koyamboo (spicy 
vegetable and lentil stews), kari or thovaran (warm vegetable salads), rasam (soup) 
and pachadi (yogurt salad) are popular.
        
    4.  Borrowing a Page (and Recipes) From Cooks in Hot Climates
By FLORENCE FABRICANT. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: 
Jun 22, 1994. p. C3 (1 page) :
   It covers sambars (thick soups), rasams (thin soups), poriyals (dry 
curries), snacks like idli and dosai, plus salads, seasonings, chutneys and other 
dishes from a vibrant cuisine rarely experienced outside India.  (...)  And it 
si certainly worth including the fragrant tomato rasam in the summer repertory.
  
    5.  For a Filling Dinner, Breakfast Dishes From India
Eric Asimov. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 5, 1997. 
p. F13 (1 page) :
   Vada, crisp, spicy doughnuts made with lentil flour, made a nice 
counterpoint to the iddly.  They also come with rasam ($4.95) and sambar ($3.95).
(At Pongal, another Indian-kosher restaurant at 110 Lexington Avenue, near 
East 27th Street--ed.)
  
    6.  Tastes of India: Expect a Surprise Instead of a Curry
Eric Asimov. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 9, 1999. 
p. F8 (1 page) :
   Smoked tomato rasam, another appetizer, is a wonderfully bright broth that 
emphasizes the fruitiness of tomatoes, enhanced by tamarind, cumin and 
muswtard seeds, with a hot chili counterpoint that brings it all together.
     
    7.  Piquant Fare For Queens Palates; Dimple Serves Tangy Spices of South 
India; Shanghai Tang Spotlights Soup Dumplings 
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 12, 1999. p. 854 (1 
page) 
 
  
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: Shabari Kumar (smk9 at columbia.edu)
Subject: Re: What is Rasam? 
View: Complete Thread (5 articles) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Date: 1995-02-20 11:16:39 PST 
    
a soup is something that is eaten by itself.  it is true that rasam can be 
drunk out of a tumbler, but it is generally eaten on rice, after the sambar 
course and before the yoghurt course.  some soups are thick and some are thin, 
ditto sauces, so consistency is not a good indicator.  
  
i do feel very strongly about this issue b/c i am SICK of going to indian 
restaurnants and seeing rasam soup on the menu, which is then served in a bowl 
with a spoon.  i suspect that is what the original rasam poster and wife had in 
mind.
  
spicy pulse-based soup if you prefer. 
 
rasam is more sauce than soup, i reiterate.  
  
mina
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
HEAVEN'S BEEF
  
http://www.rainrestaurant.com/menus.htm
  
(GOOGLE)
Rain - East/West
... Chili Sauce. (Pla Murk Krob) $9.50 > Shrimp & Pork Potstickers. (Moo
Goong Gyoza) $9.25 > Heaven's Beef, Siracha Sauce. (Nuar Sawan ... 
www.rainrestaurant.com/menus.htm - 24k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
   I broke down and decided to finally have a really good meal at RAIN (Third 
Avenue and East 62nd Street) last night.  It's a great pan-Asian place that's 
been around since 1995.
   "Heaven's Beef" intrigued me.  Did they get it from BURGER HEAVEN?  Wasn't 
Jesus a vegetarian?
   Alas, it's the only Google hit for this dish.
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CHEF TALK
  
   Some OUP-type person sent along this:
  
(GOOGLE)
http://kitschnzinc.blogspot.com/2004/06/chef-speak.html
Chef Speak 

Every business has it?s patois, it?s own rich vocabulary and the commercial 
kitchen is no exception. Sometimes it seems that chefs best express themselves 
in good old Anglo Saxon terms but in the interests of delicacy I?ll omit 
every expletive known to man and chef and explore some more interesting 
euphemisms.
FOH or front of house is where we normally find you guys, the customers, 
officially known as covers but more often referred to as punters or happy campers. 
Behind those doors which are constantly and noisily being kicked open and 
closed by the waitrons ( politically correct terminology used only by Human 
Resources people ) lies the BOH, Back of House or heart of the operation.
Here you?ll maybe find some cowboy chefs who would be more at home on the 
range cooking baked beans and stews or even shoemakers, lazy slackers whose taste 
is in their feet. The senior chef making his way through with hot food on an 
oven tray screams ?Mind yer backs !? which means stay absolutely still as he 
gets ready to send the funny food which is the vegetarian, kosher, halaal, 
special request meals. Sometimes a steak is returned as being too bloody ? ?Kill 
it!? is the terse instruction to the griller. 
Other changes to the normal cooking routine as dictated by circumstances such 
as being in the sh*t may require the food item to be nuked in the yo-yo 
(microwaved) or zapped in the Chinese microwave, the deep fat fryer. After service 
the chef may be complimented by the organizer as having presented the food 
beautifully as she had seen it originally in that colour glossy magazine while he 
reflects to himself Bloody Hollywood on a plate and of course that?s exactly 
what it is in the catering game, it?s Hollywood and you?re only as good as 
your last movie. 


From webmaster at ZWOACHZIG.DE  Wed Jun 16 11:34:20 2004
From: webmaster at ZWOACHZIG.DE (zwoachzig.de - Der Webmaster)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 13:34:20 +0200
Subject: Different Language?
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.133420.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Members

I am going to
translate my site http://www.zwoachzig.de (it's a classic car enthusiast site) into several languages. After finishing the upload and calling the search engines I wondered, why a lot of british user visit my site quite frequently, but even no american user. What could the reason be?
I searched for hints to me, what the different is between american english and british english. During this search I found your site, but in the end I found no answer. May you help me?
Best regards
Bernd


From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 16 13:50:25 2004
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 09:50:25 -0400
Subject: Different Language?
In-Reply-To: <eFbVwply07YvHhyauv45t1ABcHTZNIczQA56nZXUPUK@akmail>
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.095025.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Dear Bernd,

The problem is cultural, not linguistic. Americans don't give a hoot
for classic cars these days; only SUVs.

dInIs



>Dear Members
>
>I am going to
>translate my site http://www.zwoachzig.de (it's a classic car
>enthusiast site) into several languages. After finishing the upload
>and calling the search engines I wondered, why a lot of british user
>visit my site quite frequently, but even no american user. What
>could the reason be?
>I searched for hints to me, what the different is between american
>english and british english. During this search I found your site,
>but in the end I found no answer. May you help me?
>Best regards
>Bernd


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Jun 16 14:11:04 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:11:04 -0400
Subject: Different Language?
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.101104.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dennis, you're probably right that the issue may be cultural.  With all
due respect for your linguistic expertise, you are wrong in your opinion
that Americans do not care a hoot for classic cars.  The reason may be
that Americans with this interest are disinterested in the Web.  They are
probably in their garages working on their cars if they are not out on the
road showing them off.

Love you Dennis, but you're off on this call.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Wed Jun 16 14:38:46 2004
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:38:46 -0400
Subject: OT - Classic Cars was "different language?"
In-Reply-To: <a06020400bcf600669c7e@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.103846.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Maybe the problem is the site seems to be all Benzs. Americans would be
more interested, seems to me at least, if the site threw in a '58 Plymouth
Fury or a '65 'Stang.

(And give me a '58 Chevy Impala (hardtop) over an SUV any day.)



At 09:50 AM 6/16/2004 -0400, you Dennis:
>>Dear Bernd,
>
>The problem is cultural, not linguistic. Americans don't give a hoot
>for classic cars these days; only SUVs.
>
>dInIs


From maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Jun 16 15:25:18 2004
From: maberry at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (A. Maberry)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 08:25:18 -0700
Subject: Different Language?
In-Reply-To: <200406161411.i5GEB7Vn027159@mxe7.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.082518.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On the other hand, it could simply be because the site is devoted to particular models of Mercedes-Benz automobiles there is limited interest in the United States. It could be that these models are not widely considered as classic cars in the US (but *are* considered such in Britain). There is certainly a large number of US websites devoted to classic Benzs. Personally, when I think of a classic Mercedes it is from the 1950s or earlier or something extraordinary like the gull-wing.

allen


On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Barnhart wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Different Language?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Dennis, you're probably right that the issue may be cultural.  With all
> due respect for your linguistic expertise, you are wrong in your opinion
> that Americans do not care a hoot for classic cars.  The reason may be
> that Americans with this interest are disinterested in the Web.  They are
> probably in their garages working on their cars if they are not out on the
> road showing them off.
>
> Love you Dennis, but you're off on this call.
>
> Regards,
> David
>
> barnhart at highlands.com
>


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Jun 16 15:35:06 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 11:35:06 -0400
Subject: "too good a shooters" redux, for the masses
In-Reply-To: <20040616040134.4C328228C1@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.113506.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry Horn writes:

        >>>
 "What a compliment to Roger Clemens, to be compared at 40 to a young
pitcher like Mark Prior--that's quite a stuff he's got."

And just in case we weren't sure he could actually use a mass noun
like "stuff" in this construction, he went on to say of someone else,
I forget who, that he had "not as good a stuff".
        <<<

Ow! Ow! Ow! Ow! Ow!

-- Mark Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Jun 16 15:51:05 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 11:51:05 -0400
Subject: Different Language?
In-Reply-To: <eFbVwply07YvHhyauv45t1ABcHTZNIczQA56nZXUPUK@akmail>
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.115105.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Am I the only cynic who thought this was just an attempt to draw web
site traffic from people on this list and not a valid language-related
question?

My response would be:

It's not much linked to by other web sites. Where it is linked or
listed in site directories, it's found on German-language web sites.
Therefore, it will rarely, if ever, come up anywhere near the top on an
English-language Google search, since Google rankings are based upon a
network of trust: the more people that link to your site, the higher
your site shows up in the results. Google is the dominant American
search tool of choice, so you need to take whatever legitimate steps
you can to increase your results there.

Make sure as many sites as possible link to yours. I would steer clear
of "top sites" listings, which are stupid scams, pimples on the hairy
butt of the Internet, and usually discounted by Google in its
algorithm. Don't spam. Just politely ask other web admins to link to
your site. Make sure it's listed in Google, Excite, Yahoo, etc. Make
sure it is listed in the English-language web directories. Make sure it
is linked to from English-language sites which have similar interests
to yours. Make sure you submit the link to the English-language page,
not to the main German-language page.

There is relatively little indexable text on the first English page.
You need to have clear descriptions of what the site is about, using
words you think people might be searching for.  Add more descriptive
text. Right away I would say you need the words "Mercedes" and/or
"Benz" before every model number, and anywhere else. Those model
numbers are not enough for people to search on. So when you write
"W116" you should change it to "Mercedes W116" or "Mercedes-Benz W116."
Also, consider beefing up your English text. The more there is, the
more times it will come up in a web search.

Cheers,

Grant

On Jun 16, 2004, at 07:34, zwoachzig.de - Der Webmaster wrote:

> Dear Members
>
> I am going to
> translate my site http://www.zwoachzig.de (it's a classic car
> enthusiast site) into several languages. After finishing the upload
> and calling the search engines I wondered, why a lot of british user
> visit my site quite frequently, but even no american user. What could
> the reason be?
> I searched for hints to me, what the different is between american
> english and british english. During this search I found your site, but
> in the end I found no answer. May you help me?
> Best regards
> Bernd
>
>


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 16 17:39:24 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:39:24 -0700
Subject: figurative masturbation, once again
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.103924.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

back in september 2002 i took part in a discussion here of figurative
uses of "masturbation", including "mental masturbation".  here's a
recent cite, complete with the diminisher "just":

Harper's Magazine, July 2004, "The Boys in the Bubble" (pp. 28-31), an
excerpt from "a memo sent in March by a Pentagon adviser posted in
Iraq.  The names of the memo's author and recipient were redacted,
along with those of other officials..." (p. 28).  On p. 31 we find:

   "Our failure to promote accountability has hurt us.  The interim
constitution is just an exercise in CPA masturbation if it is not
enforced."

[i assume that someone is already on the trail of
"redacted"/"redaction" for this sort of editing by blacking or cutting
out material.]

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Jun 16 18:23:26 2004
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:23:26 -0400
Subject: Different Language?
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e01b2ee2a3b9aca005e801558.1b2ee5f@chain.highlands.com>
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.142326.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Of course you love me; I said nothing about your use of "disinterested."

dInIs

PS: I love it when I say I said nothing.


>Dennis, you're probably right that the issue may be cultural.  With all
>due respect for your linguistic expertise, you are wrong in your opinion
>that Americans do not care a hoot for classic cars.  The reason may be
>that Americans with this interest are disinterested in the Web.  They are
>probably in their garages working on their cars if they are not out on the
>road showing them off.
>
>Love you Dennis, but you're off on this call.
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>barnhart at highlands.com


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Jun 16 19:51:50 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 14:51:50 -0500
Subject: figurative masturbation, once again
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.145150.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Magicians use "masturbation" as a demeaning term about magic that is created

and practiced for its own sake, not for the benefit of spectators.  It may
include very fancy sleights or flourishes, which draw attention to
themselves
instead of accomplishing a secret effect.

>From the Genii Forum:
http://geniimagazine.com/forum/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=000
273#000006
"as so many magicians in magic competitions create and perform magic to
perform
 just for themselves and not in the real world for non-magician audiences. I
know
 several magi that refer to this as "magical masturbation" "

Taking a sly dig at such magic, Lee Asher even has a small booklet entitled
"Hand Jobs":
http://www.leeasher.com/products_handjobs.htm


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Jun 16 20:44:50 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 15:44:50 -0500
Subject: more magical masturbation
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.154450.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From the Electronic Grymoire private magician's mailing list:

Jack Shea posted in EG #1133
"What about the audience? Or are we only interested in our magical
masturbation?"


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Jun 17 00:51:23 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 20:51:23 -0400
Subject: down street
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.205123.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For those interested in speech habits of the Hudson Valley folk, I was at
the Dutchess Community College Library this evening.  The lady (retired)
with whom I was chatting made a remark about "downstreet Rhinebeck," which
is just north of Poughkeepsie across the Hudson from Kingston and New
Paltz.  When I pressed her on this she was uncertain whether she learned
while growing up in Rhinebeck or while attending school in Columbia County
near Albany.  Most of the references in the dialect dictionaries say
"northeastern NY."  This is the second individual local to the lower
Hudson Valley whom I have heard use this.  The other was a lady (about
55-60) who lived in Cold Spring, N.Y., about an hour north of New York
City on the commuter train.  I suspect that this expression was probably
much more widespread throughout the Hudson Valley.  I wonder if it has
Dutch roots.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 17 02:05:35 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 22:05:35 -0400
Subject: More food-based slang
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.220535.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The recent mention re the use of food in slang terms reminds of a
couple of old slang terms used by black soldiers in the '50's and '60's
in (West) Germany, to wit:

Cheeseburger: a white American, especially a white G.I.

Hamburger: a black American, especially a black G.I.

The point of departure was the fact that, in olden times, as we said,
back in the day, the cheeseburger was considered to be a culinary
abomination peculiar to white America. Hence, it follows, as the night
follows the day, that we would  refer to ourselves as "hamburgers,"
under the assumption that the hamburger was the "opposite" of the
cheeseburger.

Cf. also the use of "kraut," based on sauerkraut, as a slang term for a
German used by white G.I.'s.

-Wilson Gray


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 17 02:56:10 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 22:56:10 -0400
Subject: peacenik
In-Reply-To: <200406152005.i5FK5mfX010161@pantheon-po03.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.16.JUN.2004.225610.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Grant Barrett wrote:

> Official pub date September, but the real street date should be end of
> July or early August.

I'm looking forward to it.

Fred


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 17 04:20:23 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 00:20:23 EDT
Subject: De Met's Turtles (1940); "Chicken a la king" revisited
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.002023.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DE MET'S TURTLES

   It's earliest in the Chicago Tribune.  I don't know if DARE is interested
in "turtle."  See the "turtle candy" discussion in the ADS-L archives.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("DeMet" and "turtles")
    Display Ad 5 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 19, 1940. p. 5 (1 page)
:
_Have You Tasted_
_PECAN TURTLES?_
_Just One of the 90 Taste-Thrills in This_
_Famous De Met's Week-End Special_
De Met's delicious Pecan Turtles!  Here is a candy treat that words simply
can't describe!  On top are a vveritable feast of fresh, whole Louisiana Pecans.
 Inside is rich, full cream caramel that's half-dipped in the finest
chocolate and topped with chocolate rice.  You'll find Pecan Turtles in our 90-piece
assorted week-end special now being featured at all De Met's stores.
   De Met's
312 Madison St. Chicago
22 Stores in Chicago--12 Handy Loop Stores

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"CHICKEN A LA KING" REVISITED

   I discussed "chicken a la king" here a long time ago.  The "William King,
of Philadelphia" item was re-printed in COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY.  There's no
reason for the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK to get this wrong,
but one never knows.
   The usual city for "chicken a la king" myths is New York, but here's one
for Chicago.  Below this, see the 1915 ProQuest Chicago Tribune citation that
gets it right.


   June 1957, THE EPICUREAN MONTHLY, pg. 23, col. 2:
A little information about popular dishes has been sent by ALFRED FRIES,
President of the International Association of Cooks of Chicago.

   Contrary to its royal title, _CHICKEN A LA KING_, is a typical
American-style dish which originated in Chicago.  Its place of birth and circumstances of
its preparation were related to me by an old timer of our culinary profession
in 1907, at the time of my arrival in this great middle west metropolis.
   Chicken a la King was nothing new to me even then, because it featured on
the menus of all the three houses where I worked--the Manhattan Hotel on 42nd
St. and Madison Ave., The Breslin on 28th and Broadway, and my last job in New
York City, the Netherland Hotel, located at 59th St. and Fifth Ave.
   Wells St. in Chicago, the fourth block west of famous State St. and
running parallel with it, was also known as Fifth Ave., and north of the Chicago
river it was dubbed unofficially "Swiss Boulevard."  At the time of my arrival in
1907 the downtown section of Wells St. housed some big printing plants which
operated day and night.
   A popular restaurant on Wells, known as King's place, was run by the King
Family.  They served food until late at night in order to accommodate the
night-shift printers.  One cold night, during the end of the nineteenth century,
some sixty years ago, business had been good and all warm dishes had been sold
out.  Just before closing time a group of newspaper workers came in and
clamoured for hot food.  Mrs. King, or was it one of the daughters, rushed into the
kitchen, but the last cook had gone home and all she could find was some cold,
boiled chickens and a pot of cream sauce standing on the side to cool off.
   (So she invented Cobb Salad?  Buffalo wings?--ed.)
   Without hesitating the lady quickly cut the breasts in medium sized
chunks, reheated the cream sauce and dumped the chicken meat into it.  Toast was
made quickly on the gas broiler and one-two-three, a steaming hot pot of chicken
in cream sauce with fresh, warm toast was served to the hungry members of the
fourth estate.
   On the following days and nights the same and other guests asked for the
new dish--chicken in cream sauce again, and so it became a regular feature on
the simple menu, containing mostly inexpensive dishes.
   Like everything else in the world this dish underwent an evolution; other
restaurateurs imitated it and for want of a name it was termed Chicken a la
King.  Some improvements, or should we say alterations occurred; sliced fresh
mushrooms, then sliced green and red peppers were added by some progressive
culinary artist.  Finally Chicken a la King joined high society by making its
appearance on the menus of exclusive dining places in ritzy hotels.  Of course
here this originally plain dish underwent a metamorphosis under the direction of
chef members of the cuisine classique. (...)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
   Washington Post  Sunday, March 14, 1915 Washington, District Of Columbia

...Ledger. J The inventor of CHICKEN A lA KING is deAd. If MAcAdAm
is.....Robert Peel by the And why should not WILLIAM KING, of PhilAdelphiA, go down..



(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) "("William King" and "chicken a la
king"--only these two early hits)
    1.  A NAME ON ALL MEN'S TONGUES
[Philadelphia Ledger.]. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.:
Mar 14, 1915. p. M4 (1 page)

    2.  THE TRIBUNE COOK BOOK; Chicken a la King.
JANE EDDINGTON. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 7,
1915. p. 14 (1 page) :
   PHILADELPHIA as an adjective is to be found in front of a good many of the
titles to recipes besides ice cream and scrapple, and there are others who
should wear it in order to explain their true origin.
   There is more than one story afloat about the origin of the true
Philadelphia dish, chicken a la king, but I believe I have the authentic since two
widely different authorities have confirmed one the other.  In the June number of
an English cookery journal is the following paragraph:
   "The death of Mr. William King, a well known chef in Philadelphia, is much
regretted in the states, for he was the originator of the dish "chicken a la
king"--the story being that he prepared a dish twenty years ago to please a
customer, who was delighted with it that he gave it the title which has become
known throughout the U. S. A."
   The son of this customer has told me how his father, an epicure, was
accustomed to going into the best known of the hotels in Philadelphia, the one
which has had a national reputation for a quarter of a centruy now, for a meal,
and how his arrival when reported in the kitchen put the cooks on their mettle,
with the result that one day this famous dish was prepared and the great man
said: "Let it be called after the cook, chicken a la king!" (...)


(I had first found the William King credit in the NEW YORK TRIBUNE.  Now it's
here in 1915 in the CHICAGO TRIBUNE, and in the PHILADELPHIA
LEDGER/WASHINGTON POST as well.  That's a good roundup of early agreement...The Chicago story
above reads well, but the TRIBUNE COOK BOOK plainly declares it a
_Philadelphia_ dish--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 17 05:20:25 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 01:20:25 EDT
Subject: "Sunlight is the best disinfectant" (1903)
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.012025.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SUNLIGHT IS THE BEST DISINFECTANT--1,620 Google hits, 626 Google Groups hits
SUNSHINE IS THE BEST DISINFECTANT--550 Google hits, 349 Google Groups hits
SUNLIGHT IS THE BEST OF DISINFECTANTS--67 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit
SUNSHINE IS THE BEST OF DISINFECTANTS--18 Google hits, 6 Google Groups hits

   Some politician brought up this phrase again (about torture in Iraq).  Jon
Stewart lampooned it on THE DAILY SHOW last night (repeat tonight at 7 p.m.).
   Maybe some as-yet-unpublished tomes from Yale and Oxford will have it?
   Brandeis said it.  Perhaps he coined it in its media/political context,
but the phrase was previously used in an advertisement.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
From: William C Waterhouse (wcw at math.psu.edu)
Subject: Re: Who said "Sunshine is the best disinfectant"?
Newsgroups: alt.quotations
Date: 1999/01/21

In article <36A6A5AD.97B4B027 at homeXXX.net>,"Steve Conover, Sr." <
scsr at homeXXX.net> writes:
> I believe one of the USA's past Supreme Court Justices said
> "Sunshine is the best disinfectant."  Can anybody remember which
> one?

 I didn't remember, but I was able to look it up:

"Publicity is justly commended as a remedy of social and
inductrial diseases.  Sunlight is said to be the best of
disinfectants; electric light the most efficient policeman."
-- L. Brandeis, _Other People's Money_ (1933 edition, p. 62)

William C. Waterhouse
Penn State


   The AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS, pg. 303, has
"LOUIS D. BRANDEIS, _What Publicity Can Do_, in _Harper's Weekly_, Dec. 20, 1913."


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("best disinfectant")
    PLATT'S CHLORIDES, THE BEST DISINFECTANT
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 21, 1901. p.
15 (1 page) :
chemically destroys disease breeding matter.
(This tiny ad appeared frequently at the bottom of news stories in many
newspapers--ed.)

     The Power of Sunlight.; THE USE OF LIGHT IN CURING DISEASE.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: May 26, 1903. p. 4 (1
page) :
   THE best disinfectant of all is sunlight.  It destroys by its very
brightness all sorts of germs and at same time helps the growth of plants and animal
life.
(Ad for the "Common Sense Medical Adviser"--ed.)

    THE POWER OF SUNLIGHT
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Dec 2, 1904. p. 3 (1 page)

(Same as above--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 17 06:24:00 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 02:24:00 EDT
Subject: "Eat Butter First" proverb (1960); Girl comes out of cake (1955)
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.022400.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"EAT BUTTER FIRST" PROVERB
  
   I was looking for "Black Forest Cake" when I spotted these two interesting 
items.  I don't know what Fred Shapiro has for this butter proverb.  Isn't 
butter bad for you?
   From WINE AND FOOD, No. 106 Summer 1960, "BUTTER--FOOD FOR CENTENARIANS" 
by Arthur Gaunt, pg. 109:
  
 THE health-giving properties of butter are aptly expressed by an old Danish 
proverb which goes:
  
   Eat butter first, and eat it last,
   And live till a hundred years are past.
  
  
(GOOGLE) (10 hits)
Quotes about food - Firsts
... old Spanish saying. ?Eat butter first, and eat it last, and live
till a hundred years be past.? Old Dutch proverb. ?The vine ... 
www.foodreference.com/html/q-firsts.html - 27k - Cached - Similar pages 
 
> Food Quotes: Butter
> ... BUTTER. "Eat butter first, and eat it last, and live till a hundred
> years be past." Old Dutch proverb. Butter is "...the most delicate ... 
> www.foodreference.com/html/qbutter.html - 24k - Cached - Similar pages
> [ More results from www.foodreference.com ] 
> 
> 

Soup Basics: FLAVORING AGENTS
... pot just before serving. "Eat butter first and eat it last, And live
till a hundred years be passed."--Dutch proverb. One of the ... 
www.soupsong.com/bflavor.html - 17k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
The BUTTER BOARD - History of Butter
How Butter is Made. ?Eat butter first and eat it last and live
till a hundred years be past? - Old Dutch proverb It?s easy ... 
www.naturalandtasty.co.uk/history_butter.htm - 18k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
The Low Carb Luxury Online Magazine: Volume V / Number 02: January ...
... Eat butter first, and eat it last, and live till a hundred years be 
past." ??
Old Dutch proverb For many years we were told to use margarine in cooking. 
... 
www.lowcarbluxury.com/newsletter/ lclnewsvol05-no02-pg4.html - 19k - Cached - 
Similar pages 
  
butter
... stirring into the pot just before serving. "Eat butter first and eat
it last ... http://www.butterinstitute.org/, American Butter ... 
results.veoda.com/results/butter.html - 29k - Cached - Similar pages 
  
Welcome to Tout Beurre Bakery where everything is All Butter!
Welcome to Tout Beurre Bakery where everything is All Butter! "Eat butter 
first,
and eat it last, and live till 100 years be past." [Dutch Proverb]. ... 
www.toutbeurre.com/ - 17k - Jun 15, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages 
  
Butter beans News Articles
... beans to boot ... Quote of the week: Eat butter first, and eat it
last, and live till a ... 'Shroom mates Sep 3, 2003 ... I add ... 
www.synabu.com/files/shopeasier_Butter_beans.html - 33k - Supplemental Result 
- Cached - Similar pages 
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
OT:  GIRL COMES OUT OF CAKE
  
   This is my favorite "dish," but it's never recorded in a single cookbook 
anywhere.  I spotted a nice cartoon in CULINARY REVIEW: THE CHEFS' NATIONAL 
MAGAZINE, March 1955, pg. 5, col. 3:
  
(Two chefs are talking.  A blonde bombshell is being put in a large pot--ed.)
  
"NO. NO. NO. ALPHONSE!  SHE GOES IN _AFTER_ YOU BAKE THE CAKE!"


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 17 12:55:56 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 08:55:56 -0400
Subject: "Call-and-response" slang
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.085556.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Back in the middle 'Fifties, there were some slang expressions that
consisted of two parts: one person said one part and the other person
replied with the other part. The calls continue, more or less, to be
used today, but, for some reason, the responses have been lost. A
couple of examples are:

Call: Hang loose!
Response: Swing easy!

Call: How are they (understood to refer to one's testicles) hanging?
Response I: Side by side, for power!
Response II: One behind the other, for speed!

I haven't tried to keep count, but, it seems to me, "How's _it_
hanging?" is, today,
heard _far_ more often than what is, for me, the original version.

-Wilson Gray


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 17 15:59:46 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 11:59:46 -0400
Subject: terms of endearment (Colorado-style)
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.115946.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Unless I've missed it, nobody here has brought up a controversy over
usage that may bring down the president of the University of
Colorado.  Here's one take, courtesy of http://www.rotten.com/news/

"Cunt" defended by university president
KUSA-TV 9 Denver | Submitted by: Jonny Plasma
"In a sworn statement to be made public Tuesday, University of
Colorado President Elizabeth Hoffman said a four-letter word used
toward women can sometimes be used as a 'term of endearment.' The
comment comes from Hoffman's latest sworn testimony in connection
with a federal lawsuit against the university... In the deposition,
Hoffman was asked whether the "c-word" is 'filthy and vile.' She said
she knows the word is a swear word, but 'It is all in the context of
what - of how it is used and when it is used.' She was asked, 'Can
you indicate any polite context in which that word would be used?'
Hoffman answered, 'Yes, I've actually heard it used as a term of
endearment.'"
========
(See also http://hotbuttereddeath.ubersportingpundit.com/ for more on
the discussion.)

In other reports on this that I've heard on the radio and television
but can't locate electronically at the moment, President Hoffman
defended her views by citing Chaucer (she's a medieval historian by
training), which makes this an interesting usage-based analogue of
the etymologically fallacy:  "cunt" was used as a term of endearment
700 years ago, so it's *really* a term of endearment.  (I'm not here
presupposing either that she's right about its use by Chaucer or
wrong about its use by football players toward their female fellow
students now, just noting the tenor of her argument.)

Larry

P.S.  Note also that according to that hotbuttereddeath report,
"Women's groups and a member of the Board of Regents said they were
appalled by what they called Hoffman's lack of insensitivity."
Seems to me she was as insensitivity as one might reasonably expect.


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Thu Jun 17 17:22:47 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:22:47 +0100
Subject: terms of endearment (Colorado-style)
In-Reply-To: <E1BazLn-00001p-00@rinka.central.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.182247.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:59 am -0400 Laurence Horn
<laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:

> In other reports on this that I've heard on the radio and television
> but can't locate electronically at the moment, President Hoffman
> defended her views by citing Chaucer (she's a medieval historian by
> training), which makes this an interesting usage-based analogue of
> the etymologically fallacy:  "cunt" was used as a term of endearment
> 700 years ago, so it's *really* a term of endearment.  (I'm not here
> presupposing either that she's right about its use by Chaucer or
> wrong about its use by football players toward their female fellow
> students now, just noting the tenor of her argument.)

I wonder whether President Hoffman's views on the word might have been
shaped by time in England.  Before I left the US, it was the c-word--the
one word I couldn't bring my self to say even in metalinguistic contexts.
Now I'm pretty desensitised to it.

But the thing is, even here, the people who use it in less nasty ways are
generally men, and they generally use it to refer to men.  Calling a man a
'cunt' is a pretty strong insult, but like many insults, it can get turned
around to be more a sort of 'left-handed solidarity marker', like the use
of 'nigga' or 'faggot' or 'dyke' within other communities.  But that just
doesn't work when it's a man saying it to a woman, just like it's not cute
when a straight man  (without a whole  lot of interpersonal positive
history and positive context!) calls a lesbian 'dyke'.

(No offense intended to left handers!)

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Thu Jun 17 19:52:09 2004
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:52:09 -0500
Subject: terms of endearment (Colorado-style)
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.145209.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Back in the '50's at the U of Chicago, I knew a couple who had an
interesting pact.  Each added a dollar to the vacation fund,if he used the
word Cunt as a pejoritive and she did the same if she used Prick in the same
way.  They got to deduct a dollar when these were used in a romantic manner.


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Jun 17 22:42:07 2004
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:42:07 -0500
Subject: terms of endearment (Colorado-style)
In-Reply-To: <p04320403bcf76ccfd753@[130.132.166.233]>
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.174207.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In other reports on this that I've heard on the radio and television
>but can't locate electronically at the moment, President Hoffman
>defended her views by citing Chaucer (she's a medieval historian by
>training), which makes this an interesting usage-based analogue of
>the etymologically fallacy:  "cunt" was used as a term of endearment
>700 years ago, so it's *really* a term of endearment.  (I'm not here
>presupposing either that she's right about its use by Chaucer or
>wrong about its use by football players toward their female fellow
>students now, just noting the tenor of her argument.)

This is being discussed on the Chaucer list, and no, she is not right
about its use by Chaucer.

Barbara


From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM  Thu Jun 17 23:01:47 2004
From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:01:47 -0400
Subject: terms of endearment (Colorado-style)
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.190147.0400.ABARAGONA@SPRYNET.COM>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:59 AM
Subject: terms of endearment (Colorado-style)


>
> In other reports on this that I've heard on the radio and television
> but can't locate electronically at the moment, President Hoffman
> defended her views by citing Chaucer (she's a medieval historian by
> training), which makes this an interesting usage-based analogue of
> the etymologically fallacy:  "cunt" was used as a term of endearment
> 700 years ago, so it's *really* a term of endearment.  (I'm not here
> presupposing either that she's right about its use by Chaucer or
> wrong about its use by football players toward their female fellow
> students now, just noting the tenor of her argument.)
>
> Larry

To be more fair to Hoffman than she probably deserves, the news reports I've
seen did not attribute the word history argument or the Chaucer reference to
Hoffman herself.  A spokesperson for her office, Michelle Ames, is the one
who gave the lame excuse that, as a medievalist, Hoffman was familiar with
the varied history of the word and Chaucer's use of it, but she may have
been saying that because Hoffman told her to.

In any case, Chaucer never uses the word "cunt," though he could have, since
it had come into English from Old Norse about 100 years before.  What he
does sometimes use to refer jokingly to the vagina is "queynte," which is
often glossed as meaning "female genitals," but is a euphemism, in fact
probably the adjective "quaint" made into a noun, and not actually related
to "cunt," despite the similarity of sound, which is part of the joke (cf.
"darn" for "damn" and "fudge" for "fuck").

In re: Lynne Murphy's message, I confess it took me a while, watching the
movie "Sexy Beast," to realize these men were really calling each other
"cunt," clearly insulting each other in the context, but taking it in stride
as part of the macho culture (cf. "pussy" in America).

None of this, of course, justifies Hoffman's absurd refusal to admit openly
that when the football player called his female teammate a "cunt," he was
deliberately being crude and insulting.  Forget about whether it might have
been used tenderly or even neutrally 700 years ago.  The fact that a couple
in Colorado today or at the University of Chicago in the 50s might use the
term for sexual arousal rather than insult (I can't imagine it as a real
term of endearment except as a crude joke) doesn't give her license to
rationalize away what she knows to be true about this particular instance.
It was a lawyerly thing to do in the worst sense, and it's a black eye for
academicians.  How many meanings of "cunt" can we balance on the head of a
pin?

Alan B.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Jun 17 23:15:06 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:15:06 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries: semi-final thoughts
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.191506.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

#1
I still suppose that the entry in Wessely's late 19th century Latin dictionary, "cunnus, cunt, strumpet" was a joke or act of sabotage.  If there were folks around about 1890 advocating translating Latin erotic poetry into the English vernacular, I don't suppose that they would make their manifesto a cheap, pocket-sized dictionary apparently aimed at schoolboys.
At Jesse's request, Fred looked up "irrumare" for us in the Yale copy and didn't find it.  If Wessely's dictionary had a policy to encourage the use of English vulgarity to translate Latin vulgarity, I would expect it to appear at the words "mentula' and "stercus", which lend themselves to the translations "prick" and "shit".  I have not found my copy of this dictionary yet, and so cannot check this matter myself.

I wonder whether the Latin readers used by the students Wessely's dictionary seems to have been aimed at would have included the erotic poems that appear
in present day school anthologies.  If they didn't, then there might not be entries for those two words at all, which would support the joke/sabotage idea.

I am posting simultaneously with this message a tidbit, under the heading "fudge", giving an instance of printing-house sabotage.

#2
It seems from HDAS that Wessely's dictionary may be the earliest printed apperance of the word "cunt" in America.  HDAS has 1748, in what I believe to be a manuscript not published until recent decades -- and at that, "cunt" is represented as "****"; 1778, from what seems a recent collection of Revolutionary War songs (where it is represented as "c---") -- I wonder whther the collection is taking this song from a printed 18th C broadside or from a manuscript; 1888, from a pornographic book; and 1919, from a diary entry by Theodore Dreiser.  If the two 18th C citations are in fact from manuscripts, and if Wessely's dictionary was published in the early or mid 1880s, before the 1888 source, which might be the case, it would be the earliest.  (Those naughty Anglo-Saxons were using it as early as ca. 1230.)  If any of the lexicographers among us (Jesse & Jonathon particularly) are inclined to use this citation, I would make an attempt to establish a date of publication.
It does not appear to have been advertised much less reviewed in the NYTimes, LATimes or WashPost.  I would inquire of the Yale and Harvard libraries whether there is anything in their cataloguing records that would suggest when their copies were catalogued.  Their shelf-list cards might carry a date of cataloguing; many libraries at one time gave books a sequential accession number, and it might be possible to say what year or range of years the accession number suggests.   Perhaps there would be other places to look for advertisements, too.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Jun 17 23:15:12 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:15:12 -0400
Subject: fudge
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.191512.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

HDAS has "fudge" (= nonsense) from 1814 in an American source, and from 1766 in England.  This is an antedating by 7 years, for America.
   Launched here on the 17th inst, from the yard of Messrs. A. & M. Brown, the beautiful and well built ship FUDGE.  ***
   New-York Gazette & General Advertiser, January 19, 1807, p. 2, col. 6;
   The person who on Sunday took the liberty of filling up the blank in a paragraph which lay on our desk for publication, is informed, that if we knew him, he should not escape public notice.  ***
   N-YG&GA, January 20, 1807, p. 3, col. 1;
   The gentleman who fudged us on Sunday last out of a name for a ship, has come forward, to prevent the innocent from being suspected, and made a satisfactory apology.  ***  N-YG&GA, January 21, 1807, p. 2, col. 6

With reference to the question of how the word "cunnus" and its meaning got into Wessely' Latin dictionary, this is an instance of sabotage to a printer's copy committed by someone from outside the shop.

GAT


George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 17 23:34:25 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 19:34:25 -0400
Subject: terms of endearment (Colorado-style)
In-Reply-To: <002401c454bf$127bb380$9fa1bc3f@vmi.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.193425.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:01 PM -0400 6/17/04, Alan Baragona wrote:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 11:59 AM
>Subject: terms of endearment (Colorado-style)
>
>
>>
>>  In other reports on this that I've heard on the radio and television
>>  but can't locate electronically at the moment, President Hoffman
>>  defended her views by citing Chaucer (she's a medieval historian by
>>  training), which makes this an interesting usage-based analogue of
>  > the etymologically fallacy:

oops; just noticed I wrote this instead of the intended "etymological
fallacy", a concept and term going back at least to J. S. Mill
(probably not to Chaucer, though)

>  "cunt" was used as a term of endearment
>>  700 years ago, so it's *really* a term of endearment.  (I'm not here
>>  presupposing either that she's right about its use by Chaucer or
>>  wrong about its use by football players toward their female fellow
>>  students now, just noting the tenor of her argument.)
>>
>>  Larry
>
>To be more fair to Hoffman than she probably deserves, the news reports I've
>seen did not attribute the word history argument or the Chaucer reference to
>Hoffman herself.  A spokesperson for her office, Michelle Ames, is the one
>who gave the lame excuse that, as a medievalist, Hoffman was familiar with
>the varied history of the word and Chaucer's use of it, but she may have
>been saying that because Hoffman told her to.

True; that's consistent with what I heard too, now that you mention it

>
>In any case, Chaucer never uses the word "cunt," though he could have, since
>it had come into English from Old Norse about 100 years before.  What he
>does sometimes use to refer jokingly to the vagina is "queynte," which is
>often glossed as meaning "female genitals," but is a euphemism, in fact
>probably the adjective "quaint" made into a noun, and not actually related
>to "cunt," despite the similarity of sound, which is part of the joke (cf.
>"darn" for "damn" and "fudge" for "fuck").
>
>In re: Lynne Murphy's message, I confess it took me a while, watching the
>movie "Sexy Beast," to realize these men were really calling each other
>"cunt," clearly insulting each other in the context, but taking it in stride
>as part of the macho culture (cf. "pussy" in America).
>
>None of this, of course, justifies Hoffman's absurd refusal to admit openly
>that when the football player called his female teammate a "cunt," he was
>deliberately being crude and insulting.  Forget about whether it might have
>been used tenderly or even neutrally 700 years ago.  The fact that a couple
>in Colorado today or at the University of Chicago in the 50s might use the
>term for sexual arousal

or for friendly instruction: recall Mellors' pedantic use of "cunt"
(please excuse my faulty memory) in his explications to Lady
Chatterley

>rather than insult (I can't imagine it as a real
>term of endearment except as a crude joke) doesn't give her license to
>rationalize away what she knows to be true about this particular instance.
>It was a lawyerly thing to do in the worst sense, and it's a black eye for
>academicians.  How many meanings of "cunt" can we balance on the head of a
>pin?
>
Well, a black eye for one, anyway, but generally attributed (in the
reports I've been getting) not to the academician in her but to her
position as bureaucrat in charge of the Beast fed by big-time college
football.  This lawyerly move (which has been compared unfavorably to
Pres. Clinton debating what the meaning of "is" is) followed her
decision not to fire Gary Barnett, the football coach who
presided--unknowingly, he claims--over an incredible array of ethical
violations by recruiters and players.

larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun 18 01:08:02 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:08:02 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries: semi-final thoughts
In-Reply-To: <61ed8f61eac4.61eac461ed8f@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.210802.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My copy of the Wessely Handy Dictionary has no date but it looks old, like
1900-ish.

It has the c-word all right.

There is no entry for "mentula". No other 'dirty words' that I can find,
except maybe this one ... at least this seems odd: Latin "penis" has
English translation "man's yard" (I would have expected English "penis", I
guess).

-- Doug Wilson


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Jun 18 01:46:55 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:46:55 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries: semi-final thoughts
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.214655.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Using APS at Proquest, Wessely's dictionaries seem to turn up first about
1868.  That was his German one.

English-French shows up in 1870, English-Italian  and Spanish-English in
1871.

The first cite for the Latin-English Dic is 1892.  Doesn't mean it wasn't
published before then, only that it existed by that time.

The exact cite is advertising "Routledge's Pocket Dictionaries."  It lists
"Wessely's Spanish-English and English-Spanish" as well as the French,
German and Italian ones.

There is a "Latin-English and English-Latin" dictionary listed after those
four, and the price is the same(75 cents).  I can only assume that it was by
Wessely.  Of course, we don't know if "cunt" was in that 1892 edition.

Just trying to suggest that the item was available by at least 1892.

SC


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun 18 03:05:08 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 23:05:08 -0400
Subject: Duck Soup (1897)
Message-ID: <THU.17.JUN.2004.230508.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From B. Popik:

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Other 12 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 23, 1897. p. 10 (1
page) :
    P. A. Brady, one of the more successful of retired bookmakers, and
formerly an owner of race horses, said: "It has now come to an issue where
every man
must show his colors.  I am out of the business and so this fight is duck soup
for me."

----------

Is there good reason to think the above exemplifies the familiar "duck
soup" = "something easy"?

It looks to me like "duck soup" should mean "something moot" or "something
of no interest" in this passage.

Here is yet another figurative "duck soup", from 1879:

----------

_Mountain Democrat_ (Placerville CA), 8 Nov. 1879: p. 4(?), col. 2:

<<HEROIC TREATMENT.-- In surgery and medicine the above title is given to
treatment which if it fails to cure is bound to kill the patient. In the
latter case it is liable to also make duck soup of the practitioner's
reputation.>>

----------

I suppose this "duck soup" means "something degraded or ruined".

Is there a common theme?

-- Doug Wilson


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Jun 18 04:16:07 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 00:16:07 -0400
Subject: Twice-baked potato(1923)-antedating nothing
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.001607.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just helping out Barry.

I would have guess that twice-baked potato was only from the 40's or 50's, even though it's so simple, it must have been something done even before 1900.

Anyhow, from 9 Oct. 1923    _Decatur(IL) Daily Review_  14/4

<<Twice-baked potatoes are a bit "different" and very good to serve with a light meal course.>>

There is a recipe following which describes the process just a we do them today. this one using grated cheese and paprika in addition to milk, salt, pepper.

SC


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Jun 18 11:34:26 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 07:34:26 -0400
Subject: "Call-and-response" slang
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.073426.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Wilson Gray <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET>

: Back in the middle 'Fifties, there were some slang expressions that
: consisted of two parts: one person said one part and the other person
: replied with the other part. The calls continue, more or less, to be
: used today, but, for some reason, the responses have been lost. A
: couple of examples are:

: Call: Hang loose!
: Response: Swing easy!

: Call: How are they (understood to refer to one's testicles) hanging?
: Response I: Side by side, for power!
: Response II: One behind the other, for speed!

: I haven't tried to keep count, but, it seems to me, "How's _it_
: hanging?" is, today, heard _far_ more often than what is, for me, the
: original version.

For me growing up (80s, Southern Maryland) i wasn't familiar with "How're
they hangin'?" I did, however, know that if someone said "How's it
hangin'?"--and if there were no school officials nearby--the only correct
response was a slightly drawn-out and emphatic "Long and low."

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Fri Jun 18 13:53:33 2004
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:53:33 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries: semi-final thoughts
In-Reply-To: <61ed8f61eac4.61eac461ed8f@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.095333.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 17, 2004, at 19:15, George Thompson wrote:
>   If the two 18th C citations are in fact from manuscripts, and if
> Wessely's dictionary was published in the early or mid 1880s, before
> the 1888 source, which might be the case, it would be the earliest.
> (Those naughty Anglo-Saxons were using it as early as ca. 1230.)  If
> any of the lexicographers among us (Jesse & Jonathon particularly) are
> inclined to use this citation, I would make an attempt to establish a
> date of publication.

The HDAS project would be happy to have it.

Thanks,

Grant


--
Grant Barrett

Assistant Editor, U.S. Dictionaries, Oxford University Press
Project Editor, Historical Dictionary of American Slang
Editor, "Hatchet Jobs and Hardball: The Oxford Dictionary of American
Political Slang" (2004)

Editor, Double-Tongued Word Wrester
http://www.doubletongued.org/

Webmaster, American Dialect Society
http://www.americandialect.org/


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 18 14:06:55 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:06:55 -0400
Subject: "Call-and-response" slang
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.100655.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

It is so refreshing to see the use of "unprintable" words, jokes, etc. on
this list.

Most of you under 50 or so probably do not ever remember a time when even
scholarly journals would self censor themselves thus distorting the record.

Believe me that it was not that long ago that such prohibitions existed, and
that I lived through them.

If anyone is interested in a discussion of this problem they should look up
Gershon Legman's review article "'Unprintable ' Folklore: The Vance Randolph
Collection" In The Journal of American Folklore
The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 103, No. 409. (Jul. - Sep., 1990),
pp. 259-300.

I am putting up this citation just so that you will be able to evaluate your
sources since quite often I have met younger scholars who are not even aware
it even existed and thus are often too willing to accept  intentionally
corrupted texts at their face value.

When I was a young graduate student in anthropology quite often we would
pass jokes which we would never dare to publish even though we all knew
them. When I was doing my PhD research in Arkansas, Vance Randolph's
territory, I constantly heard such exressions as "As stiff as a preacher's
prick in a cow's cunt", but I would never have dreamed of publishing them.
Or how many of you know that one of the verses to the old fiddle tune
"Leather Breeches" includes the line, "standing up against the wall with her
cunt hanging out"?

I could give you a thousand of these but for the most part they do not
appear in the literature.

Most of them due to self censorship have disappeared from the record but if
you read folklore texts you quite often can reconstruct them from what
evidence is available.

Oh well. Enough of my rant but believe me when I tell you that Legman's
article is worth reading as a guide to the subject.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Bowie" <db.list at PMPKN.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 7:34 AM
Subject: Re: "Call-and-response" slang


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       David Bowie <db.list at PMPKN.NET>
> Subject:      Re: "Call-and-response" slang
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> From:    Wilson Gray <hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET>
>
> : Back in the middle 'Fifties, there were some slang expressions that
> : consisted of two parts: one person said one part and the other person
> : replied with the other part. The calls continue, more or less, to be
> : used today, but, for some reason, the responses have been lost. A
> : couple of examples are:
>
> : Call: Hang loose!
> : Response: Swing easy!
>
> : Call: How are they (understood to refer to one's testicles) hanging?
> : Response I: Side by side, for power!
> : Response II: One behind the other, for speed!
>
> : I haven't tried to keep count, but, it seems to me, "How's _it_
> : hanging?" is, today, heard _far_ more often than what is, for me, the
> : original version.
>
> For me growing up (80s, Southern Maryland) i wasn't familiar with "How're
> they hangin'?" I did, however, know that if someone said "How's it
> hangin'?"--and if there were no school officials nearby--the only correct
> response was a slightly drawn-out and emphatic "Long and low."
>
> David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
>     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
>     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
>     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Fri Jun 18 14:35:16 2004
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:35:16 +0100
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries: semi-final thoughts
In-Reply-To: <E1BbJoK-0001AT-4f@julia.zen.co.uk>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.153516.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:53:33 -0400, Grant Barrett
<gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Grant Barrett <gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG>
> Subject:      Re: dirty words in dictionaries: semi-final thoughts
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Jun 17, 2004, at 19:15, George Thompson wrote:
>>   If the two 18th C citations are in fact from manuscripts, and if
>> Wessely's dictionary was published in the early or mid 1880s, before
>> the 1888 source, which might be the case, it would be the earliest.
>> (Those naughty Anglo-Saxons were using it as early as ca. 1230.)  If
>> any of the lexicographers among us (Jesse & Jonathon particularly) are
>> inclined to use this citation, I would make an attempt to establish a
>> date of publication.
>
> The HDAS project would be happy to have it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Grant


May I add my order too and offer my thanks in advance.

In re positive uses of cunt (defined in 1788 by Francis Grose - not a man
for whom PC would have bulked very large - as 'a nasty name for a nasty
thing'), the nearest citations I can find are both defined as 'an
attractive woman'.

1974 (context early 1960s) Price _The Wanderers_ 119: Joey?s girl was a
royal skank [...] but Eugene?s was a real cunt.
1997-2000 College Slang Research Project (Cal. State Poly. Uni., Pomona)
[Internet] Cunt {offensive} (noun) A very good looking female.

And I recall, but cannot properly cite, an Irvine Welsh line, I think it's
in _Trainspotting_, where a male in the throes of copulation says to his
partner, 'Oh, you sweet cunt' - but this may, while undoubtedly positive,
be merely anatomical.

The more general, and I would suggest neutral rather than positive use of
cunt to mean a man (once the reference is to a woman, it becomes - other
than in the cites above - negative), is reasonably long established in the
UK. I have examples from the 1960s onwards.

Jonathon Green


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun 18 16:33:02 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 12:33:02 -0400
Subject: OT:  GIRL COMES OUT OF CAKE
In-Reply-To: <20040618040035.86F532286F@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.123302.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry wrote:

        >>>

   This is my favorite "dish," but it's never recorded in a single cookbook
anywhere.  I spotted a nice cartoon in CULINARY REVIEW: THE CHEFS' NATIONAL
MAGAZINE, March 1955, pg. 5, col. 3:

(Two chefs are talking.  A blonde bombshell is being put in a large
pot--ed.)

"NO. NO. NO. ALPHONSE!  SHE GOES IN _AFTER_ YOU BAKE THE CAKE!"
        <<<

What are those morons doing in the kitchen? You don't mix batter in a pot!

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 18 19:26:56 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:26:56 -0400
Subject: Page Stephens's "rant"
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.152656.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It is so refreshing to see the use of "unprintable" words, jokes, etc.
on
this list.

Most of you under 50 or so probably do not ever remember a time when
even
scholarly journals would self censor themselves thus distorting the
record.

Believe me that it was not that long ago that such prohibitions
existed, and
that I lived through them.

If anyone is interested in a discussion of this problem they should
look up
Gershon Legman's review article "'Unprintable ' Folklore: The Vance
Randolph
Collection" In The Journal of American Folklore
The Journal of American Folklore, Vol. 103, No. 409. (Jul. - Sep.,
1990),
pp. 259-300.

I am putting up this citation just so that you will be able to evaluate
your
sources since quite often I have met younger scholars who are not even
aware
it even existed and thus are often too willing to accept  intentionally
corrupted texts at their face value.

When I was a young graduate student in anthropology quite often we would
pass jokes which we would never dare to publish even though we all knew
them. When I was doing my PhD research in Arkansas, Vance Randolph's
territory, I constantly heard such exressions as "As stiff as a
preacher's
prick in a cow's cunt", but I would never have dreamed of publishing
them.
Or how many of you know that one of the verses to the old fiddle tune
"Leather Breeches" includes the line, "standing up against the wall
with her
cunt hanging out"?

I could give you a thousand of these but for the most part they do not
appear in the literature.

Most of them due to self censorship have disappeared from the record
but if
you read folklore texts you quite often can reconstruct them from what
evidence is available.

Oh well. Enough of my rant but believe me when I tell you that Legman's
article is worth reading as a guide to the subject.

Page Stephens

I found Prof. Stephens's "rant" to be of sufficient general interest
that I thought I'd give it its own thread.

The whole point of this self-censorship was to protect the ears and
minds of women and children from spoken and printed "filth," I believe.
Of course, this was a totally fruitless endeavor. I learned "fuck" at
the age of six from a five-year-old neighbor boy. Naturally, neither
the neighbor boy nor I had any understanding, at that age, of what
"fucking" really was or why anyone would have any interest in doing it.
We understood only that it was something "bad" that parents knew
nothing about. Years later, when I was finally told the truth re human
reproduction... Well, talk about "shock and awe"! When I was in grad
school, I chided my otherwise lovely girl friend wrt her constant use
of "fuck" and "shit" in casual conversation. I asked, "Would you want
your mother to hear you talking like that?" Her reply: "Who do you
think I learned it from?"

I had no idea that Gershon Legman was a true scholar. I've been
familiar with his name and some of his work since the late 'Fifties or
so, when I was involved in the pursuit of independent research in the
field of pornography. [All right, so I was hanging out in dirty-book
stores. Let him who is without sin etc.]

-Wilson Gray


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun 18 19:53:02 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 15:53:02 -0400
Subject: dirty words in dictionaries: semi-final thoughts
In-Reply-To: <20040618040035.86F532286F@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.155302.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU> wrote:

        >>>
[...]
I am posting simultaneously with this message a tidbit, under the heading
"fudge", giving an instance of printing-house sabotage.
[...]
        <<<

At least you didn't use the old form "titbit".

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 19 00:30:00 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:30:00 EDT
Subject: Chess Pie (1866); OT: Restaurant Week in NYC
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.203000.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OT:  RESTAURANT WEEK IN NYC
  
   It's restaurant week in New York City--for the next _two_ weeks.  The 
"prix fixe" is at $20.12, to help NYC get the 2012 Olympics and to swindle another 
eight cents from the expected $20.04.
   If you're coming to NYC, e-mail me and we'll make a reservation.  I must 
caution that I am on the rebound from Jennifer Lopez.
  
(GOOGLE)
Summer Restaurant Week 2004 Summer Restaurant Week June 21-25 & June 28-July 
2. ... and three-course dinners for $30.12 to show support for New York?s Bid 
to host the 2012 Olympic Games ... 
www.nycvisit.com/content/index.cfm?pagePkey=241 - 31k - Cached - Similar 
pages
   
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------  
CHESS PIE
        
   "Chess Pie" should certainly be in the forthcoming OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA ON 
FOOD AND DRINK IN AMERICA.  I don't know what it has on "chess pie"...I was 
recently informed that "chicken a la king" (probably in the top 100 American 
dishes) isn't mentioned at all, not even under "chicken"!
   Again, John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK has 1928 for 
"chess pie," and DARE has 1932 for "chess pie."  I had found several 
citations in the early 1880s.  (See ADS-L archives.)
   Old cookbooks take "chess pie" to the 1870s.  Newspaperarchive has it from 
1866.  I'll try to do better with the full-text CHICAGO TRIBUNE from the 
1840s, 1850s, and 1860s.  I doubt that I'll find "chess pie" in the digitized 
EARLY AMERICAN NEWSAPAPERS (which are mostly pre-1825).
      
  
(FEEDING AMERICA)
http://digital.lib.msu.edu/cookbooks/searchresultswithin.cfm?start=11
CHESS-PIE 
Practical Cooking and Dinner Giving. A Treatise Containing Practical 
Instructions in Cooking; in the Combination and Serving of Dishes; and in the 
Fashionable Modes of Entertaining at Breakfast, Lunch, and Dinner. New York: Harper & 
Brothers, 1876.
     
CHESS PIE 
Buckeye Cookery, and Practical Housekeeping: Compiled from Original Recipes. 
Minneapolis, Minn.: Buckeye Pub. Co., 1877.
      
 
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 Coshocton Age  Friday, October 12, 1866 Coshocton, Ohio    
...fruit or vegetables to bo preserved. CHESS PIE. For" two pics common 
size..    
Pg. 4, col. 1:  
   CHESS PIE.--For two pies common size, take 4 eggs, 3 cups sugar, 1 cup 
cream, 1/2 cup butter, 1 tablespoonful flour, and flavor with nutmeg.  Cover the 
baking plates with crust, pour in the mixture, and grate nutmeg over it.  
There is no upper crust.  When a pretty brown, try with a spoon as for custard.  
This is the best pie we ever ate.


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sat Jun 19 00:35:04 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:35:04 -0400
Subject: Antedating "four flush" 1883/1885
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.203504.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You always knew it came from cards, but this just helps prove it and date it back a bit.


M-W and OED have 1887 for "four flush" to mean a draw poker hand in which a person has four cards of the same suit.

M-W, OED and HDAS have 1896 for "four flush" meaning both a "bluffer" and "to bluff", both cites coming from from good old George Ade.

23 March 1883 _Newark(OH) Daily Advocate_  1/3(newspaperarchive)

<<With the alternative of drawing to his four flush, Mr. Tucker remarked that it would cost $50 to play, and he put up the cash.>>

And, from 16 April, 1885  _Oshkosh(WI) Daily Northwestern  3/2

<<The alleged occupation of Penjdah by the Russians is the very thing England has been so nettled about, as a very strategic point on the frontier, and such a concession is looked upon as a virtual back-down by the British government.  The great bluff game, where both sides were drawing to a four flush, has been turned against the bluffer.>>

Sam Clements


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 19 01:51:29 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 21:51:29 EDT
Subject: Osgood Pie (1911)
Message-ID: <FRI.18.JUN.2004.215129.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OSGOOD PIE--Oh-so-good pie?
CHESS PIE--Jes' pie?

   OED's revision stops just short of "Osgood."  I re-checked on the usual
databases.


(ADS-L ARCHIVES, 12- December 2000)
OSGOOD PIES

Mariani states that these are "Oh So Good" pies, but he doesn't give a date.
Anyone have a date?

>From FRUIT, GARDEN & HOME (later BETTER HOMES & GARDENS), June 1924, pg.48,
col. 1
:_Osgood Pies_
4 eggs
1 cupful of raisins
2 cupfuls of sugar
3 tablespoonfuls of vinegar
2 tablespoonfuls of butter
1 teaspoonful each of cloves and cinnamon
Line pie tins with rich crust and cover bottoms with the raisins. Separate
the yolks and whites of the eggs.  To the yolks add the sugar, butter, spices,
and vinegar; mix thoroly and then add to this mixture the well beaten whites.
Mix well and pour into the crusts.  Bake in a slow oven.--Mrs. K. R., Iowa


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Classified Ad 4 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 30, 1924. p. X8 (1
page)

    2.  Early Shopping Food Pages; PRACTICAL RECIPES CHEF WYMAN'S ANSWERS
PRUNE ROLL WITH CARAMEL SAUCE
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 24, 1927. p.
A9 (1 page) :
      OSGOOD PIE
   A. B. M., Indio, Cal.:  One and a half cupfuls of seeded raisins, three
eggs, one cupful of sugar, one small cupful of cream, one lemon.  Beat the yolks
of the eggs, add the sugar, cream, grated rind of the lemon and then the
juice of the lemon.  Stir well while mixing in the lemon juice, beat the whites of
the eggs until stiff, then add the raisins, pour into the pie crust and bake.

    3.  Here Are More Pie Recipes of the Southland; They're Typically Creamy
and Flavorful.
MARY MEADE. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 29, 1934.
p. 15 (1 page) :
   And did you ever hear of Osgood pie?  'Twas a new one on me not so long
ago.  It also seems to belong to the same spicy, egg bound custard family.
      OSGOOD PIE
4 eggs
1 1/2 cups sugar
1 tablespoon butter, melted
3 teaspoons vinegar
1 teaspoon cinnamon
1 cup raisins
1 cup chopped nuts
   Separate the eggs and beat the yolks until light and fluffy.  Add to this
the melted butter, sugar, vinegar, and cinnamon.  Stir in the raisins and nuts
and turn into two pie pans which have been lined with pastry.  Bake in a
moderate oven (350 degrees F.) until firm.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 Washington Court House Record Herald   Thursday, March 26, 1970 Washington
Court House, Ohio
...Ever Hear Of OSGOOD PIE? OSGOOD PIE A new vertion of a dessert.....an
interesting dessert called OSGOOD PIE. When we first ate the PIE there we..

   Chronicle Telegram   Tuesday, March 17, 1970 Elyria, Ohio
...of OSGOOD PIE? NOW BY G. J. L. OSGOOD PIE is a new version of a dessert
PIE.....here's a new way to make OSGOOD PIE. Although other OSGOOD PIEs call
for..

   Fond Du Lac Commonwealth Reporter    Wednesday, July 29, 1970 Fond Du Lac,
Wisconsin
...1770 Fruits Provide Tarl Fhnor OSGOOD PIE A new version of a dessert PIE
that.....s Southern favorite. OSGOOD PIE Recipe Hard to Find for Food..

   Progress Bulletin    Wednesday, March 18, 1970 Pomona, California
...here's aj new way to make OSGOOD PIE.; Although other OSGOOD PIEs
call.....i serves an interesting dessert called OSGOOD PIE. At first wej didn't
remember..

 Progress   Wednesday, March 11, 1970 Clearfield, Pennsylvania
...Given at Senior Center Ever Hear of OSGOOD PIE? By 3IAETIN E. SEGAi.
pressed.....from oven. Use as directed is New OSGOOD PIE recipe. Trash Collected
At..

 Walla Walla Union Bulletin     Wednesday, February 06, 1974 Walla Walla,
Washington
...on wire racks. Makes 4 dozen cookies. OSGOOD PIE 2 cups sugar 2
this.....whipped cream. Makes one 9-inch PIE. PASTRY SHELL: Combine 1 cup..

 Bridgeport Telegram    Tuesday, May 24, 1927 Bridgeport, Connecticut
...redoes for both Pediin PIE and OSGOOD PIE." Answer: I am glncl to publish
the.....to say that, I am. not farr.ilar with OSGOOD PIE. I hope that if any
house..

 Bridgeport Telegram    Monday, July 25, 1927 Bridgeport, Connecticut
...Cob Lettuce Berry PIE Coffee "OSGOOD PIE: (Contributed by E. G. hot fnt
till..

   Indianapolis Star    Thursday, February 16, 1911 Indianapolis, Indiana
...1228 Brookslde avenue, Indianapolis. OSGOOD PIE. eggs (reserve the white
for..
Pg. 8, col. 4:
      _OSGOOD PIE._
   Take four eggs (reserve the white for frosting), one and one-half cupfuls
of sugar, one-half cupful of water, one cupful of raisins chopped fine, two
tablespoonfuls of butter, one tablespoonful of cinnamon, one teaspoonful cloves.
 Enough for two pies.  Put in one crust and cook, remove from oven and put
frosting on and return to oven to brown.
   MRS. AUSTIN SHAW.
636 Warren Avenue, Indianapolis.

 Mansfield News Journal     Thursday, June 24, 1954 Mansfield, Ohio
...O.. News-Journal Thursday, June 1954 "OSGOOD" PIE i of pecans, 1 cup
of.....raisins, 3 teaLine a PIE pan with your best spoons of vinegar..

 Bridgeport Telegram    Tuesday, July 26, 1927 Bridgeport, Connecticut
...wire down as before. Mrs. V. C. T. My OSGOOD PIE: Some time ago another
Reader..

   Chronicle Telegram   Tuesday, March 17, 1970 Elyria, Ohio
...way to make OSGOOD Pie. Although other OSGOOD PIES call for a baked pie
shell.....to her spring wardrobe Ever hear of OSGOOD pie? NOW BY G. J. L. OSGOOD
PIE..

   Progress Bulletin    Wednesday, March 18, 1970 Pomona, California
...to make OSGOOD Pie.; Although other OSGOOD PIES call for a baked pie
shell.....i serves an interesting dessert called OSGOOD Pie. At first wej didn't
remember..


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 19 04:50:52 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 00:50:52 EDT
Subject: German Chocolate Cake (12 April 1957, Commerce, Texas)
Message-ID: <SAT.19.JUN.2004.005052.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   There's a nice "German Chocolate Cake" from 12 April 1957, Commerce,
Texas, on Newspaperarchive.  If the recipe appeared in the fall of 1957 in the
DALLAS MORNING NEWS, that's too late.
   Of course, the New York Public Library gets the DALLAS MORNING NEWS from
1958.  Of course.
   The "German Chocolate Cake" story is famous, but I'll give also the
popular version below.



(GOOGLE)
Is there anyone who does not like chocolate?... A Texas homemaker sent the
recipe for German's chocolate cake to a Dallas newspaper in the fall of 1957, or
so say Kraft Foods, who now own the brand. ...
chef2chef.net/features/cynthia/article/2003-08.htm - 21k - Cached - Similar
pages


(GOOGLE)
Re: Delicious German Chocolate Cake
... A Texas homemaker sent the recipe for German's chocolate cake to a Dallas
newspaper in the fall of 1957, according to Kraft Foods.The cake's name comes
from ...
ba.food - Jun 28, 1999 by Computer Lab - View Thread (12 articles)


(GOOGLE)
http://www.kitchenproject.com/html/Is_German_Chocolate_Cake_Really_German.html

Is German Chocolate Cake Really German?

In America there is a very popular cake called German Chocolate Cake. It is
not German at all (Nicht Deutcher),

But it has an interesting history A recipe for "German's Chocolate Cake"
first appeared in a Dallas, Texas newspaper in 1957. That it was sent in by a
Dallas homemaker is all we know, according to Patricia Riso, a spokeswomen for
Kraft foods . It used a brand of chocolate bar called "German's" which had been
developed
in 1852, by an Englishman named Sam German, for Baker's Chocolate Company.
The cake had an immediate and enthusiastic response, and requests about where to
find the German's chocolate bar were so numerous that General Foods (who
owned Baker's Chocolate) decided to send pictures of the cake to newspapers all
around the country.Everywhere the recipe had the same response and the sales for
the chocolate exploded. Now the cake is a regular item in bakeries across the
country, and
a mix is on the grocery shelves also. It was my favorite cake when I was
growing up and I requested it for my birthday every year.

The cake most likely didn't originate from this Dallas housewife.
Buttermilk chocolate cakes have been popular in the south for
over 70 years, and Pecans are plentiful in the area also, to
make the nice frosting. German's chocolate is similar to a milk
chocolate and sweeter than regular baking chocolate.



(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 Daily Journal  Friday, April 12, 1957 Commerce, Texas
...Corn Mixed Greens Deviled Eggs GERMAN CHOCOLATE CAKE Corn Bread Loaf
Bread.....White Sauce Apple. Carrot Raisin Salad CHOCOLATE Pie Hot Biscuts Milk
Butter..
Pg. 2, col. 3:
_Cafeteria Lists_
_Four-Day Menus_
   Menus at the Commerce public school cafeteria for the week April 15-18
have been announced as follows:
(...)
   _Thursday_
(...)
   German Chocolate Cake


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 19 16:01:21 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 12:01:21 EDT
Subject: OT: French's mustard & hot dogs in 1904 (red-hot & mustard in
 1890)
Message-ID: <SAT.19.JUN.2004.120121.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Not only was the "hot dog" invented at the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair, 
but also French's mustard.  It invented the combination of mustard and hot 
dog--or so French's tells us.  Who am I to spoil a 100th culinary anniversary?
    
  
(GOOGLE)
http://www.frenchsfoodservice.com/frenchs/mustard/article.asp?articleid=49
French's Mustard was introduced at the 1904 World's Fair in St. Louis helping 
to popularize a new culinary creation: the hot dog  
  
http://www.foodtimeline.com
1904 George J. French introduced French's mustard, the same year the hot dog 
was introduced to America at the St. Louis World's Fair. 
1904 The tea bag was invented by Thomas Sullivan of New York City. He first 
used them to send samples to his customers instead of sending it in more 
expensive tins. 
1904 Puffed Rice was introduced at the St. Louis World's Fair. Developed by 
Dr. Alexander P. Anderson of NYC, and first manufactured by American Cereal Co 
(which later became Quaker Oats Co.) 
1904 Post Toasties were introduced by General Foods (originally called ?
Elijah's Manna.?) 
1904 R. Blechyden served tea with ice at the St. Louis World's Fair and 
invented iced tea. 
1904 The ice cream cone was invented at the St. Louis World's Fair in 1904. 
An ice cream vendor ran out of paper cups and asked a nearby waffle booth to 
make some thin waffles he could roll up to hold the ice cream.     
      
  
   The following excellent article appears to have been cut off at the margin 
and is nearly illegible, but it must be read.
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
   Salem Daily News     Saturday, January 18, 1890 Salem, Ohio  
...he sells hash, bread rankfort sausage, RED-HOT" 11 de shentlemens haf 
some.....ice HOT. In dis box I carries the und MUSTARD. I shust valk me I. und 
de..
Pg. 4?, col. 1:
_CHICAGO'S NIGHT COOKS._
(...)
   "See, he sells hash, bread (and?--ed.) frankfort sausage, red hot."
(...)
   The red-hots (are?) generally cut in two longitudinally (and?) smothered 
in mustard.


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Sat Jun 19 17:51:36 2004
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 13:51:36 -0400
Subject: Chess Pie (1866)
In-Reply-To: <1a5.24bb8974.2e04e308@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.19.JUN.2004.135136.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 08:30 PM 6/18/2004 -0400, you wrote:
Chess pie is indeed a fantastic concoction, but I never connected it to the
Buckeye State.  The Shaw House in St. Louis is known for it and includes it
in its book of 19th century recipes.  Like Indian pudding, it was a simple
dish to make on the frontier.



>
>CHESS PIE
>Buckeye Cookery, and Practical Housekeeping: Compiled from Original Recipes.
>Minneapolis, Minn.: Buckeye Pub. Co., 1877.
>
>
>(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
>  Coshocton Age  Friday, October 12, 1866 Coshocton, Ohio
>....fruit or vegetables to bo preserved. CHESS PIE. For" two pies common
>size..
>Pg. 4, col. 1:
>    CHESS PIE.--For two pies common size, take 4 eggs, 3 cups sugar, 1 cup
>cream, 1/2 cup butter, 1 tablespoonful flour, and flavor with
>nutmeg.  Cover the
>baking plates with crust, pour in the mixture, and grate nutmeg over it.
>There is no upper crust.  When a pretty brown, try with a spoon as for
>custard.
>This is the best pie we ever ate.


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun 19 22:45:33 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 18:45:33 -0400
Subject: Chess Pie (1866)
Message-ID: <SAT.19.JUN.2004.184533.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

As I know it is pecan pie without any pecans.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Beverly Flanigan" <flanigan at OHIO.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: Chess Pie (1866)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIO.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Chess Pie (1866)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> At 08:30 PM 6/18/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> Chess pie is indeed a fantastic concoction, but I never connected it to
the
> Buckeye State.  The Shaw House in St. Louis is known for it and includes
it
> in its book of 19th century recipes.  Like Indian pudding, it was a simple
> dish to make on the frontier.
>
>
>
> >
> >CHESS PIE
> >Buckeye Cookery, and Practical Housekeeping: Compiled from Original
Recipes.
> >Minneapolis, Minn.: Buckeye Pub. Co., 1877.
> >
> >
> >(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
> >  Coshocton Age  Friday, October 12, 1866 Coshocton, Ohio
> >....fruit or vegetables to bo preserved. CHESS PIE. For" two pies common
> >size..
> >Pg. 4, col. 1:
> >    CHESS PIE.--For two pies common size, take 4 eggs, 3 cups sugar, 1
cup
> >cream, 1/2 cup butter, 1 tablespoonful flour, and flavor with
> >nutmeg.  Cover the
> >baking plates with crust, pour in the mixture, and grate nutmeg over it.
> >There is no upper crust.  When a pretty brown, try with a spoon as for
> >custard.
> >This is the best pie we ever ate.


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Jun 20 04:04:33 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 00:04:33 -0400
Subject: walk-off
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.000433.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred Shapiro contributed back in 2000 that the earliest use of the term in baseball he could find was a quote from Dennis Eckersley(Go Cleveland) in 1988.

7 JUne 1958  _Sheboygan Press_ 14/1

<<When Milwaukee Braves relief specialist Don McMahon saw the Coliseum's left field screen Friday, he said, "When anything is hit to left, the pitcher can walk off the mound, he knows it's a homer.">

I know, I know.....not an antedating.  Just showing it was a common metaphor in pitcherdom a bit earlier than Eckersley.

Sam Clements


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 20 04:08:45 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 00:08:45 EDT
Subject: Romescu or Romesco Sauce, Cremat (1954) & Catalan cookery
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.000845.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I told you "Romesco sauce" wasn't invented in 1980.  I don't know if OED
is preparing this sauce.
   The 1954 book is a travel book by someone who has also done cookbooks.
   ProQuest Historical Newspapers and Newspaperarchive, unfortunately,  are
useless for Catalan cookery.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CATALAN CUISINE:
EUROPE'S LAST GREAT CULINARY SECRET
by Colman Andrews
New York: Atheneum
1988

   A great book on this cuisine.

Pg. 222:  ROMESCO
   "I don't think there are many cities in the world," Joseph Pla once wrote,
"that have, in addition to an incomparable past, a spledorous present and a
uniquely beautiful location, a sauce of their own."  The city he's talking
about is Tarragona, the fabled old Roman capital (and modern business center)
sixty miles or so down the coast from Barcelona, and the sauce is _Romesco_--a
Catalan classic based on pulverized almonds and hazelnuts, dried sweet peppers,
and tomatoes.  The word _romesco_, in fact, has three emanings in the region:
It is a variety of dried pepper, small, ruddy-red, and medium-mild, also called
the _nyora_ (_fiora_ in Castilian); it is a sauce, and it is a great seafood
dish--perhaps the most interesting of all Catalan fish soups or stews.  Local
tradition in Tarragona sometimes maintains that it is of ROman origin (hence
its name), and journalist Angel Muro, in his bookj _El Practicon_, published in
1894, extended its pedigree even further back, suggesting that it had been
eaten by the Celts in Tarragona and was in fact originally a Phoenician
invention.  A bit more modestly, another Tarragona journalist, Antonio Alasa, used to
claim that a representative of the city had offered it to Jaume I or Aragon,
The Conqueror, when he visited the region after his victory in Majorca in 1232,
and that by the end of the thirteenth century, it was common among local
fishermen.
   The only trouble with all this supposed history, of course, is that the
single most important ingredient of the sauce--the one without which, by common
agreement, it would not be _Romesco_--is the _nyora_ pepper, and peppers, an
import from the New World, weren't planted in Catalonia until the sixteenth
century.  In reality, whatever its antecedents, the dish seems to have first
appeared in the nineteenth century.
   Scholar Charles Perry, who has made a special study of peppers both sweet
and hot, tells me that he _thinks_ the _nyora_ pepper is the variety
scientifically called _Capsicum annuum grossum/provar. pomiforme/sub-var. Conc.
humilirotundum Haz_,  So there.  Whatever it is, it is not available in the United
States--but I've had good luck substituting ancho peppers (called pasilla in
California, though elsewhere that name refers to a spicier dried pepper) or small
New Mexican peppers.

(The revised OED has no entry for "nyora" pepper.  OED has only one recent
hit for "pasilla," and that has 2,330 Google hits--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
CONTINENTAL HOLIDAY SERIES WITH BON VIVEUR:
HOLIDAY IN BARCELONA AND THE BALEARICS
London: Frederick Muller Limited
1954
(The NYPL lists "Fanny Cradock" as the author "Bon Viveur"--ed.)

Pg. 73:  We devoured _sobrosada_ and butifarra_ (the red and black Ibicenco
sausages) and sampled both _palo_--an aperitif which is rather like Amer Picon,
but lighter, the sam colour but not so thick or of such high alcoholic
content, and _frigola_--a sticky, sweet, mild liqueur.
(See "sobrassada" and "botifarra" below--ed.)

Pg. 81:  Here follows a brief description of one or two dishes you may expect
to find and which we enjoyed very much indeed.
_Chipirones._
   Whole small squid with melted parsley butter and pimiento sauce called
Romescu.  This sauce is made with pimientoes, oil, wine, vinegar, powdered
garlic, cloves and almonds.  If it is very hot, drink with it (and almost everything
else) one of the countless variations of Sangria, a Spanish-type claret well
iced and served in a lidded glass jug with soda water, a dash of cognac,
orange and lemon juice and sections of fruit.
_Cremada Plachada._
   This is a form of caramel cream.  The basic cream is run over a shallow
plate and an ice-thin skating-rink of salamandered sugar locks it in.
_Gambas._
   Mallorcan Ibicenco prawn: soft, deep-pink and tasting like lobster flesh.
Wonderful with mayonnaise.
Pg. 82:
_Ensaimadas._
   These will be served to you every morning for breakfast on Majorca.  They
are the island specialty--coiled, featherweight, flaky buns, sweet and wholly
delicious.  According to the local patissier on the island it is impossible to
make them anywhere else.  As the tale runs, this authority on the subject
flew not only all the ingredients but the local water as well to Barcelona, and
even then, failed to make ensaimadas identical with the ones for which he is
renowned.
_Melon el Patio._
   This is a specialty of El Patio, Palma, Majorca.  Quarters of water melon
are marinated with kirsch and maraschino, dusted with sifted icing swugar and
thoroughly chilled.
_Rognons Jerez._
   Another specialty of the same house.  Kidneys cooked with sherry from
Jerez and asparagus tips.
_Gazpacho_.
   The cold national soup of Spain.  We will not go into the crude peasant
variety here, but will content ourselves with saying that the more sophisticated
version with its side dishes, as served to us at Finisterre, Barcelona, is
perfect in this climate and a great success when served at home in England.
_Paella Andaluz._
   Another national Spanish dish which will pop up everywhere: a
highly-filling concoction, of varying degrees of luxury, with some form of oil-fried rice,
vegetables, onion, garlic, sausage, chicken, lobster and shell-fish.
_Mero, Sauce aux amandes._
   This is the local fish cooked with a particularly succulent almond sauce.
Pg. 83:
_Champagne Cocktail._
   From a gastronomic stand-point we strongly disapprove of such a drink,
but, during a summer holiday in Spain, the temptation to drink champagne
cocktails at anything from 1/- to 2/6d. is  quite irresistible.
_Ibizenco hors d'oeuvre._
   This remarkable assortment, rivalled only by the Indonesian RIce Table,
includes (among many standard ingredients of a mixed hors d'oeuvre), the
following: brains dipped in butter, fried mushrooms, fried octopus, cold grilled
cutlets, stuffied pimientoes, cold fried kidneys, cold fried fish.
_The local creme caramel._
   Look out for an extremely naughty trick indulged in on the Island of
Ibiza.  THey drench the little moulds of caramel with marmalade.
_The omelette._
   Besides its normal service this will be quite a feature on any picnic
meals you are given.  It is customary to eat it cold, and it is really very good
indeed.
_Habas a la Catalana._
   Look for this in Barcelona.  The Spanish equivalent to the cassoulet of
France's Castelnadaury.
_Perdiz a la Vinagretta._
   A sweet service of partridge in which the bird is wrapped in vine-leaves
and served with vinaigrette sauce.
_Cremat._
   This primative offering is made with either rum, brandy or cana.  THis
last is a Cuban distillation from the sugar-cane.  THe chosen fire-water is
poured over sugar, burnt and doused with hot black coffee.  The result is a
non-aristocratic (Pg. 84--ed.) version of Monsieur Brillat- Savarin's Cafe Bruolt;
but around midnight in a small taverna, or on the terrace of your hotel, it is a
potent inducement to passing romance.
(See "Cremat" entry below--ed.)
_Helado Mandarin._
   Whole tangerines or mandarines are hollowed, stuffed with tangerine liquer
water-ice, frozen and served with the tops replaced and little dark-green
orange leaves added.  The effect is enchanting, the taste delicious, and this
takes the place of the Edwardian sorbet in the meal.
_Zarzuela._
   A saffron stew with oil and such fish as prawns, mullet, mussels, lobster
and octopus.  Highly indigestive, and well worth it!
_Habas._
   The Spanish version of Boston baked beans and bacon.
_Arroz a la Paella._
   Rice cooked with much saffron and opil, small shell-fish, chicken, octopus
and mussels.
_Tapas._
   Spanish hors d'oeuvre of many versions.  If you are fortunate enough to
sample this inland, it will probably contain fresh lobster, crayfish, raw ham,
artichoke bottoms, mayonnaise and ribbons of tripe in tomato and pimento sauce.
_Gambas a la Plancha._
   Grilled to order.  Served hot.  A positive passion with us.
_Salsa de Nadal._
   Christmas soup on Ibiza unchanged for centuries, containing chicken, pork,
spices and almonds.
Pg. 85:
_Ibizenco omeletttes._
   Expect to find these larger, heavier, frequently served flat instead of
folded, and laced with fish and vegetables.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
BOTIFARRA/BUTIFARRA

BOTIFARRA + SAUSAGE--246 Google hits, 21 Google Groups hits
BUTIFARRA + SAUSAGE--525 Google hits, 37 Google Groups hits
(Not in OED)

CATALAN CUISINE, pg. 147:  _Botifarra._  This is perhaps the most common
Catalan sausage of all-the one you get grilled with white beans or wild mushrooms,
crumbled up in stuffings, etc.  It's simply a white pork sausage,
medium-coarse in texture and usually seasoned only with salt and pepper.  Under its
Castilian name, _butifarra blanca_, and in a domestically made version, it si
sometimes available at Spanish or Hispanic markets and it may be ordered by mail
(as _butifarrita_) from the La Espanola company in California.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
SOBRASSADA/SOBRASADA

SOBRASSADA + SAUSAGE--240 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
SOBRASADA + SAUSAGE--1,570 Google hits, 11 Google Groups hits
(Not in OED)

CATALAN CUISINE, pg. 147:  _Sobrassada._  This is a Majorcan specialty, a
sofr, almost patelike pork sausage flavored with garlic and paprika and often
eaten simply spread on bread.  (Penelope Casas gives a recipe for a version of
_sobrassada_ in _The Foods & Wines of Spain_.)  A domestic version (_sobrasafa_
in Castilian) is sometimes available at Spanish and Hispanic markets (and,
again, is sold by La Espanola).  Otherwise, the closest march is Mexican pork
chorizo, though it's spicier than _sobrassada_.  Despite the similarity of name,
Italian _soppressata_ is not at all the same thing and is not a good
substitute.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CALCOTADA

CALCOTADA--606 Google hits, 244 Google hits
(Not in OED; nice, long writeup in CATALAN CUISINE)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CREMAT

CREMAT + COFFEE--282 Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits
(Not in OED)

CATALAN CUSINE, pg. 267--_Cremat (COSTA BRAVA RUM AND COFFEE PUNCH). (...)
And if all this someday happens, you will quite possibly be convinced, at least
for the moment, as I certainly wasmyself, that _Cremat_ is the most
delicious, wondrous drink you've ever tasted.
   If, on the other hand, you happen to be sitting on an apartment balcony in
New York City with the sound of screaming traffic in the distance...The stuff
still tastes pretty good.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
TUMBET (MAJORCAN VEGETABLE CASSEROLE)

TUMBET--3,530 Google hits, 349 Google Groups hits
(Not in OED)

CATALAN CUISINE, pg. 274--_Tumbet (MAJORCAN VEGETABLE CASEROLE)_.  (...)  The
dish--which is simply an arrangement of sliced potatoes, eggplant, and bell
peppers, first fried and then layered in a cassola and baked in fresh tomato
sauce--is almost exclusively a summer dish in Majorca for just this reason.
Majorcans can't conceive of making it with ingredients that are not at their
best.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 20 05:50:07 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 01:50:07 EDT
Subject: Millionaire's Salad & Tek-Tek Soup (1958); What's Cookin' (1939)
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.015007.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

MILLIONAIRE'S SALAD & TEK-TEK SOUP 
  
MILLIONAIRE'S SALAD--181 Google hits, 6 Google Groups hits
MILLIONAIRE'S SALAD + NEW ZEALAND--93 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
MILLIONAIRE'S SALAD + SEYCHELLES--25 Google hits, 5 Google Groups hits

     
(GOOGLE NEWS)
1 IN 130 AMERICANS A MILLIONAIRE
New York Post, NY - Jun 15, 2004
By BILL HOFFMANN. June 16, 2004 -- Americans are richer than ever ? with one 
in every 130 people in the United States a millionaire, a study reveals. ...     

  
Millionaire club grows
Honeycomb Connect (subscription), Canada - Jun 16, 2004
New York, NY ? There were an estimated 7.7 million high-net-worth individuals 
in the world at the end of 2003, up 7.5% or a net 500,000 people compared 
with ...    


   "Millionaire's Salad" is a dish from the Seychelles and other places.  The 
revised OED has New Zealand first (1982), but has the Seychelles second.  I 
found the following while browsing through WINE AND FOOD...I'll do a 
Seychelles-Madagascar trip eventually, but there was political unrest in Madagascar.
   (The above NEW YORK POST story came with a picture of a young guy on a 
yacht.  No millionaire does parking tickets in the Bronx five days a week.)
     
  
(OED)
millionaire's salad orig. N.Z., (a dish of or containing) the heart of a 
palm, esp. the nikau. 
1982 D. BURTON Two Hundred Years N.Z. Food & Cookery 7 Succulent and sweet to 
the taste, nikau heart later became known as ?*millionaire's salad? because 
the tree dies when the heart is removed. 1999 Jerusalem Post (Nexis) 12 Feb. 
29 Called ?Millionaire's Salad? in the Seychelle Islands, this salad is based 
on fresh palm hearts which grow wild on the islands.
  
  
   Spring Number 1958, no. 97, WINE AND FOOD, "Seychelles Fare" by Stanley 
Jones, pg. 10:
   What are the national dishes?  The first that comes to mind is tek-tek 
soup.  This is made from a species of tiny cockle which is easily collected by 
burrowing in the sand of the foreshore at any time when the tide is out or just 
beginning to come in.  A dish similar to civet-de-lievre, made from the 
fruit-eating bat, is another.  The white jelly-like contents of the coco-de-mer, 
that nut of a palm tree unique to the Seychelles which General Gordon of Khartoum 
averred was the Forbidden Fruit of the Garden of Eden, is a gustatory 
curiosity which I find to be disappointingly uninteresting, though I am told that it 
is more tasty if flavoured with maraschino or similar liqueurs.  Infinitely 
more appetizing is palmiste, the heart of the top of a wild palm.  This is cut 
from where the leaves begin to sprout; either chopped up raw and eaten as a 
salad, or boiled; its nutty flavour is very attractive.  It can also be marinated 
and bottled for use as required.  The cultivated coconut palm can also be 
used in the same way but, unless the heart is taken from a tree felled by a 
strong wind, it is rather expensive--hence the name "millionaire's salad".

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
MORE "HAIR ON YOUR CHEST"
  
   The Chinese have lots of chest hair?
  
   Spring Number 1958, no. 97, WINE AND FOOD, "Marco Polo's Noodles":
   With the Chinese the thousand-year-old eggs are taken with a grain of 
salt--that is, it is one of their pastimes for amusement to serve these morsels to 
foreign visitors and watch keenly for their reaction. (...)
   "The eggs will put hair on your chest", the old-time Chinese are fond of 
telling their youngsters.
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"WHAT'S COOKING?" (continued)
  
WHAT'S COOKING--435,000 Google hits, 4,760 Google Groups hits
  
    I'll re-check with Newspaperarchive.  See the ADS-L archives for a 1942 
Gene Krupa speculation that this dates from 1934-35.  I just spotted the 
following:
  
   September 1955, CULINARY REVIEW--THE CHEFS' NATIONAL MAGAZINE, pg. 27, 
col. 2 cartoon:
(One chef to another--ed.)
   "WILL YOU STOP SAYING 'WHAT'S COOKING'?"
  
  
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
What's cooking?
JW>(2) So come see what's cooking at Applebee's Festa Italiana. ... What's 
cooking" is a code phrase for "what's happening" sometimes - it's a play on 
words. ... 
alt.usage.english - Nov 18, 1992 by Paul Burnett - View Thread (30 articles)    



(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 Mansfield News Journal     Saturday, June 28, 1941 Mansfield, Ohio     
...YOUR SILENCE.' BRAHD SAY, WHAT'S COOKING I .on, i GET I TRYIHG 70 
FRAME.....AND THE "LADY" BRAIN DISCOMEK CLUE so WHAT, COOL off, Qmss i MISSED PLANS 
THK..
    
 Key West Citizen   Friday, September 26, 1941 Key West, Florida    
...Mtina fantastic at first, but WHAT'S COOKING? New luminous plastic lure 
for..
    
   Helena Independent   Tuesday, September 30, 1941 Helena, Montana     
...they are not saying just now WHAT'S COOKING in the future pot. 
Physically.....of the New Yorks is still favoring what was a severe sprain and chipped..
    
   Gettysburg Times     Thursday, January 30, 1941 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania   
    
...quite a crowd out there. WHAT'S COOKING in. The door opened wide. 
anoV.....man Charlie to do for the variety show what Parade did for the movies, what..
    
   Nevada State Journal     Saturday, August 02, 1941 Reno, Nevada      
...me a buzz now and then to see WHAT'S COOKING When I inquire why she 
is.....actual story of a small contractor and what happened to him, play by play, 
in..
    
   Nevada State Journal     Thursday, October 30, 1941 Reno, Nevada     
...go into conference to find out WHAT'S COOKING, which they don't until I 
say.....TO DO Everybody is trying to guess what the future has in store, 
especially..
    
   Gettysburg Times     Friday, March 07, 1941 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania     
...surrounded by skyscrapers. WHAT'S COOKING here. Are_; yoii 
.ciirious.....doing average things for a reels. What does Alice do? First. :time you see..
    
   Nevada State Journal     Friday, March 21, 1941 Reno, Nevada     
...word from Phillips, Gammick and WHAT'S COOKING Cashill, the attaches sang 
"God..
    
   Newark Advocate  Monday, February 14, 1938 Newark, Ohio      
...an' lifting up pot lids to see WHAT'S COOKING an' jest generally snooping. 
So.....if he had had any knowlmanding to know what we are edge in 1917 of 
what came to..
    
   Stevens Point Daily Journal  Saturday, September 11, 1915 Stevens Point, 
Wisconsin     
...bunch of soldiers listening to WHAT'S COOKING for supper, and over here Is 
the.....father's very decided tastes in COOKING, and it would take months 
to..
    
   Charleston Daily Mail    Saturday, November 26, 1932 Charleston, West 
Virginia   
...nuls at all. I simply must see WHAT'S COOKING ...I'm going to lift 
the.....and home influences are paramount. What his mother does, what ,his father..
    
   Charleston Daily Mail    Friday, November 25, 1932 Charleston, West 
Virginia   
...of soda in it. I'd like to know WHAT'S COOKING ...think I'll take a Some 
dish.....Out of the Charleston Daily Mail's COOKING pot of good ideas will 
soon..   
      
   Helena Independent   Friday, May 10, 1940 Helena, Montana    
...MOTOR [OAIHiYSIfM LOOK WHAT'S COOKIN' AT TBE mflRLOUJ STARTS 
SUNDAYI.....could not be reached to explain what had happened. Belgians stood in the..
    
   Helena Independent   Wednesday, October 08, 1941 Helena, Montana     
...I believe you. Mr. Wade, WHAT'S COOKIN'. Wallace Wade, Duke My team, 
I.....conversation to the specific and asked what McCarthy thought of Sturm. He..
    
 Iowa City Press Citizen    Wednesday, April 23, 1941 Iowa City, Iowa       
...BIG DAYS ENDS TUESDAY WOW Look WHAT'S COOKIN" HERE'S YOUR APPETIZING DISH 
OF.....and -develop a definite dea as to what to do in event of either a 
Hitler..
    
 Wisconsin Rapids Daily Tribune     Saturday, November 29, 1941 Wisconsin 
Rapids, Wisconsin       
...even a wrestling fan would know WHAT'S COOKIN'. Antigo in Easy 29-13 Win 
Over.....it has a dangerous aerial attack. "WHAT'S more, the fact we have two 
teams..
    
 Deming Headlight   Friday, May 23, 1941 Deming, New Mexico     
...NIGHT SUNDAY AND MONDAY LOOK WHAT'S COOKIN' Alive (and Kickin') The stars 
of.....Charles Lombard Laughton in "They Knew What They Wanted" Yes, and we do 
to it..
    
 Lima News  Sunday, December 07, 1941 Lima, Ohio    
...Out By Chet Smith Hy'a Toots WHAT'S COOKIN'? BASEBALL'S MARKET OPENS 
IN.....0., Dec. (AP) Warmed up by "let's see what we've got" games against..
    
 Lima News  Monday, December 22, 1941 Lima, Ohio    
...MARCH OF TIME frtl.OR CARTOON "WHAT'S COOKIN DOC" NEWS EVENTS Attention 
LIMA.....Read In 98 Of Every 100 Lima Homes" WHAT A SHOW DON'T MISS IT The 
K.A.I'. I..
    
   Coshocton Tribune    Wednesday, December 06, 1939 Coshocton, Ohio    
...rugs to prove they really know WHAT'S COOKIN'. When the city invited them 
to a.....the November election, I know that is what they Mayor Treasure said. 
know the..
    
   Zanesville Signal    Sunday, December 10, 1939 Zanesville, Ohio      
...began to prove they really know WHAT'S COOKIN'. When the citv 
invited.....we noticed the most mamHere's WHAT'S COOKIN1 Knocks Himself Cold Hail..
    
   Indiana Evening Gazette  Wednesday, December 06, 1939 Indiana, 
Pennsylvania    
...rugs to prove they really know WHAT'S COOKIN'. When the city invited them 
to a.....old people alive than before. Just what does the term 
arteriosclerosis mean.. 


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Sun Jun 20 14:55:06 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 10:55:06 -0400
Subject: my second-favorite quotation
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.105506.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This one is for Fred.

I believe I have posted before that my second-favorite quotation is from Herman Hickman, the early 1950s Yale football coach.  When asked one year what his hopes were for the his team, he said that they were the same as every year, that the team would play at least well enough to keep the alumni sullen but not mutinous.

It seems that I'm not the only one who remembers this line.  The Sunday Business section of the NYTimes, June 20, 2004, p. 1, col. 4, quotes Richard D. Parsons, chief executive and chairman of Time Warner, referring to an appearance by AOL-Warner exectives at a meeting of company employees in 2002:

"When we were here in '02, Barry said that people were disappointed and somber," he said, then paused a beqat for effect.  "They were sullen, bordering on mutinous, is what they were."

GAT


George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.


From tb0exc1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU  Sun Jun 20 17:03:50 2004
From: tb0exc1 at CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU (callary ed)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 12:03:50 -0500
Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: SECOND CALL FOR PAPERS]] (fwd)
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.120350.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

***********************************************************************
Edward Callary                      Phone: 815-753-6627
English Department                  email: ecallary at niu.edu
Northern Illinois University        FAX: 815-753-0606
DeKalb, Il 60115-2863
***********************************************************************



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 19:52:09 -0400
From: Ed Lawson <edlawson at netsync.net>
Reply-To: lawson at fredonia.edu
To: ed Callary <ecallary at niu.edu>
Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: SECOND CALL FOR PAPERS]]



-------- Original Message --------
Subject:        [Fwd: SECOND CALL FOR PAPERS]
Date:   Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:19:40 -0400
From:   Ed Lawson <edlawson at netsync.net>
Reply-To:       lawson at fredonia.edu
To:     Ed Callary <ecallary at niu.edu>





-------- Original Message --------
Subject:        SECOND CALL FOR PAPERS
Date:   Thu, 17 Jun 2004 17:26:17 -0400
From:   Ed Lawson <edlawson at netsync.net>
Reply-To:       lawson at fredonia.edu
To:     Ed Callary <ecallary at niu.edu>





Ed C:

Can you put this out on ADS-L?   It's complicated to explain but it
amounts to that my e-mail address of record with ADS is lawson at fredonia.edu
but when I send out mail it goes to edlawson at netsync.net & confuses the
ADS setup.


American Name Society with the Linguistic Society of America

CALL FOR PAPERS, PROGRAM SUGGESTIONS, AND PARTICIPANTS

Second Call: June 17, 2004 for San Francisco, January 6-9, 2005

San Francisco 2005.

The American Name Society invites abstracts for papers and program
suggestions for ANS sessions to be held in conjunction with the
Linguistic Society of America, the American Dialect Society, and other
organizations in San Francisco, 6-9 January 2005.   We welcome all
members of ADS & LSA to attend all sessions.

The preferred mode of transmission of abstracts or proposals is by email
or e-mail attachment sent to:

 edlawson at netsync.net <mailto:edlawson at netsync.net>

Abstracts sent by surface mail are acceptable and should be addressed to:

                                                               Edwin D.
Lawson
                                                               23
Westerly Drive
                                                               Fredonia
NY 14063

The meetings will take place at the Hyatt Regency Embarcadero.  The
rates for a single/ double room are $115.00.

Abstracts on any area of onomastics are appropriate. Abstracts of
150-200 words should be sent as soon as convenient but not later than 1
September 2004.  Proposals for panel discussions, nominations for
distinguished or speakers, or other types of proposal are due by August 1.
Eligibility.  Membership in the American Name Society is a requirement.
There is also an ANS registration fee (to cover items not covered by
LSA, projector use, ANS printed programs, badges, etc.).  The charge in
Boston was $16.
There is a registration fee due the Linguistic Society of America (in
addition to getting greatly reduced hotel rates, LSA offers us many
special lectures and the book exhibit). This year the regular fee was
$70 with other rates for students/retirees and for just one day.
Sessions of the American Dialect Society and other allied groups are
also open to ANS members.   Non-Members of ANS are welcome to submit
abstracts but they will have to be members  of  ANS for final
acceptance of  papers for presentation.

If a paper is accepted for ANS, the abstract will be published in the
LSA 180-page Meeting Handbook as well as the ANS program.  Further
information on registration and on the hotel is to be available in May.

  All abstracts will be evaluated anonymously and senders will be
notified by 15 September 2004 or as soon as possible after that date.

 Further information concerning the Linguistic Society of America and
the 2005 LSA meeting in San Francisco can be obtained from the LSA
homepage,

<http://www.lsadc.org>

www.lsadc.org <http://www.lsadc.org>



We are happy to announce that William Bright, distinguished professor
emeritus of anthropology and linguistics, UCLA who is currently an
adjunct professor at the University of Colorado will be our keynote speaker.

"The study of names generally focuses on placenames and personal names,
but in principle can also include such classes as animal names and plant
names. Among the American Indian tribes of northwestern California, the
operation of a taboo on speaking the names of the dead had the
side-effect that other types of names, especially of animals, were
frequently replaced by descriptive expressions. The result was
vocabularies in which a high proportion of nouns were of the descriptive
type."

We are also please that Sheila Embleton of York University will be the
discussant.

Some abstracts have already come in from such far away places as New
Guinea and Nigeria.  At least two session devoted to a single topic are
currently being negotiated.

******************************************************************************

ANS/LSA San Francisco, January 2005
Preliminary Indication of Interest

Your completion of this form at this time will help us plan the meeting.

Please include:

Author's name:

Author's affiliation:

Address:

Telephone no.:

Fax no.
E-mail address

Title of paper (or topic):

 Proposal Suggestion

Time requested: 20 minutes + 10 minutes discussion NO DISCUSSANT.

                                       Or

                             20 minutes + 3 minutes DISCUSSANT - 7
minutes discussion

Special equipment (overhead projector, slide projector, etc.).

Special scheduling requests:

  ************************************************************************************


  Details about membership in the American Name Society are at:

                            http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ANS/

The Boston Meeting (2004).

At the ANS sessions, 19 papers were presented, and 24 people
participated as authors, chairs, or discussants.  The world of
onomastics was well-represented with participants from Canada, China,
Finland, Israel, Malta, South Africa, and United Kingdom, as well as
from the US.

The keynote speaker was Stanley Lieberson (Harvard University) who spoke
on, "Popularity as a taste: Application to the naming process."  Our
special speaker was Patrick Hanks (Editor-in-Chief, Dictionary of
American Family Names) who spoke on, "Family names in America:
Assimilation and conservation."  Ron Butters (Duke University) organized
two outstanding sessions on brand names.

We would also like to recognize Richard Sheil of SUNY, Fredonia, who
designed the program cover,  Paul Drexler for local arrangements, and
ANS members who attended the sessions, Dorothy Litt, Ted Stevens, and
Paul Sorvo.

The first day's sessions were especially well-attended with more than 30
in attendance for the morning program and more than 40 people for the
afternoon program on brand names.  Noteworthy is that many attendees
were from the Linguistic Society of America and the American Dialect
Society.

One feature introduced at the Boston meeting was to give authors the
option of having a discussant for their papers.  Although not mandatory,
discussants often added a great deal to the presentations.

--
                    ______        Edwin D. Lawson
                  /       |       Professor Emeritus of Psychology
                 |        |       State University of New York, Fredonia
                /         |       Fredonia, NY  14063-1605 USA
    __________/           |
   /                      |
 /+Buffalo                |       EMAIL: lawson at fredonia.edu
|*FREDONIA                |       Telephone:  (716) 673-1921
|_________________        |
                   \_     |
                      \   |
                        '-| __ ,---|
                          /___/-- /

See American Name Society on the Web: http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ANS/

Other members of the program committee:

Ed Callary
Michael McGoff
Don Orth
Paul Drexler
Laurel Sutton




--




                    ______        Edwin D. Lawson
                  /       |       Professor Emeritus of Psychology
                 |        |       State University of New York, Fredonia
                /         |       Fredonia, NY  14063-1605 USA
    __________/           |
   /                      |
 /+Buffalo                |       EMAIL: lawson at fredonia.edu
|*FREDONIA                |       Telephone:  (716) 673-1921
|_________________        |
                   \_     |
                      \   |
                        '-| __ ,---|
                          /___/-- /

See American Name Society on the Web: http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ANS/


--




                    ______        Edwin D. Lawson
                  /       |       Professor Emeritus of Psychology
                 |        |       State University of New York, Fredonia
                /         |       Fredonia, NY  14063-1605 USA
    __________/           |
   /                      |
 /+Buffalo                |       EMAIL: lawson at fredonia.edu
|*FREDONIA                |       Telephone:  (716) 673-1921
|_________________        |
                   \_     |
                      \   |
                        '-| __ ,---|
                          /___/-- /

See American Name Society on the Web: http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ANS/


--




                    ______        Edwin D. Lawson
                  /       |       Professor Emeritus of Psychology
                 |        |       State University of New York, Fredonia
                /         |       Fredonia, NY  14063-1605 USA
    __________/           |
   /                      |
 /+Buffalo                |       EMAIL: lawson at fredonia.edu
|*FREDONIA                |       Telephone:  (716) 673-1921
|_________________        |
                   \_     |
                      \   |
                        '-| __ ,---|
                          /___/-- /

See American Name Society on the Web: http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ANS/


--




                    ______        Edwin D. Lawson
                  /       |       Professor Emeritus of Psychology
                 |        |       State University of New York, Fredonia
                /         |       Fredonia, NY  14063-1605 USA
    __________/           |
   /                      |
 /+Buffalo                |       EMAIL: lawson at fredonia.edu
|*FREDONIA                |       Telephone:  (716) 673-1921
|_________________        |
                   \_     |
                      \   |
                        '-| __ ,---|
                          /___/-- /

See American Name Society on the Web: http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ANS/


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 20 21:33:46 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:33:46 EDT
Subject: On any given Sunday (1950); On any given Saturday (1927)
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.173346.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   "On any given Sunday is often credited to NFL Films or former NFL
commissioner Pete Rozelle, but it goes back much further than that.
   Like "Sunday morning quarterback" and "Monday morning quarterback," I
checked "on any given Saturday."  Again, college football is earlier here.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("on any given Sunday")
 Mansfield News Journal     Sunday, January 03, 1954 Mansfield, Ohio
...including an all-important 58-' ON ANY GIVEN SUNDAY ANY pro team has
the.....victory in the sectiONal tournadefeaf ANY other club. "All the pro oppositi
ON..
Pg. 20, col. 1:
   That's what Dick Logan, the two-year offensive guard of the Green Bay
Packers, contends....(...)...However, Logan, who is scheduled for army induction
tomorrow, went on to say that on any given Sunday any pro team has the
potential to defeat any other club..."All the pro opposition is of the finest," he
says.  "You don't hit occasional easier spots like you do in the college brand of
competition.  And there's plenty of spirit, too.  The pros want to win just
as much as the boys in high school and college."

   Nevada State Journal     Sunday, October 02, 1955 Reno, Nevada
...Our first team can lick ANYbody on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY, but we don't have
the.....but the Redskins will be in trouble if ANY of them are sidelined by
injuries..
Pg. 15, col. 5:
   "Our first team can lick anybody on any given Sunday, but (Col. 6--ed.) we
don't have the reserves and bench strength," Kuharich said.
(Joe Kuharich, coach of the Washington Redskins--ed.)

 Lima News  Sunday, February 24, 1957 Lima, Ohio
...ANY team can beat another on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY, whether it be first
or.....Ford Frick the "finest written for ANY group of men" .players with five, 10..
Pg. D-4, col. 6:
  "That's easy," he (NFL commissioner Bert Bell--ed.) says "The equalization
of the teams has been the savior of the game.  Nothing brings out people more
than competition.  There used to be a day when two or three teams won all the
games.  Today, any team can beat another on any given Sunday, whether it be
first or last."


   Holland Evening Sentinel     Wednesday, June 19, 1957 Holland, Michigan
...team can beat ANY other team on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY." Gibbs, 56, has
been.....36 years and has 19 years, longer than ANY other official, in the NFL. His
No..
Pg. 13, col. 2:
   "This season coming up should be the most interesting in the National
Football League history.  All teams are evenly matched and any team can beat any
other team on any given Sunday."
(Ronnie Gibbs, NFL official--ed.)

 Mansfield News Journal     Thursday, October 10, 1957 Mansfield, Ohio
...s last ONe, kind of beautiful ON ANY GIVEN SUNDAY afternoON these
October.....Especially In Fall By GEORGE CONSTABLE ON a. bright fall day, sunligh:
fingers..
(Not sports-related--ed.)

   Newport Daily News   Saturday, November 02, 1957 Newport, Rhode Island
...capable of beating ANY other team on ANY GIVEN afternoon." For several
years.....points don't count at. all on a GIVEN SUNDAY afternoon. i W-FIGHTING
Willie..
Pg. 8, col. 1:
   The most obvious explanation for NFL upset each Sunday could be contained
in Bert Bell's annual pre-season speech, in which he intoned: "In this league
any team is capable of beating any other team on any given afternoon."

   Newport Daily News   Monday, June 02, 1958 Newport, Rhode Island
...There is league balance, ON ANY GIVEN SUNDAY a cellar club can knock
off.....Why? Doesn't a wrestling fan have ANY rights? Is he a secONdclass,
citizen..
Pg. 11, col. 1:
   JONES (David R. Jones, president of the Cleveland Browns--ed.) WAS ASKED
to explain why in recession-hit towns, like Detroit and Cleveland, fans had
enough money to buy football tickets so far in afvance but were not buying
baseball tickets.
   "I think it is because there is no Yankee runaway in football.  There is
league balance.  On any given Sunday a cellar club can knock off a contender."

   Western Kansas Press     Friday, December 21, 1962 Great Bend, Kansas
...standouts to say that on almost ANY GIVEN SUNDAY, as Blanda goes so go
the.....loving Carllon (Cookie) Gilchrisl of ANY of his backboard prowess and..
Pg. 6, col. 2:
   But it's hardly a reflection on the other offensive standouts to say that
on almost any given Sunday, as Blanda goes so go the Oilers.

   News Herald  Wednesday, September 25, 1963 Hubbard, Ohio
...isn't there something about "on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY... 'CLARKSDALE, Miss.
(AP.....by the National Football League of ANY wrongdoing in financial dealings..

Pg. 18, col. 1:
   Now isn't there something about "on any given Sunday..."

 Oshkosh Daily Northwestern     Friday, October 23, 1964 Oshkosh, Wisconsin

...alsorans who could bust loose on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY. The Browns face
their.....the Athletics" owner. "I haven't at ANY time been approached by ANY one
from..

   Sheboygan Press  Thursday, October 07, 1965 Sheboygan, Wisconsin
...schedule. And this business of 'on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY ANY team can beat
another.....not pinpointing h i s comments on ANY particular game, Davis made
such..

 News Journal   Sunday, October 23, 1966 Mansfield, Ohio
...by noting that "ANY GIVEN team on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY But his phrase making
has.....in an American Football League game SUNDAY. In other SUNDAY action, the
New..

 Oshkosh Daily Northwestern     Tuesday, October 25, 1966 Oshkosh, Wisconsin

...It has been said that ANY team on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY can stop another in
the.....price he gives you a better deal than ANY of the so-called "bargain"
stores..

 Valley Independent     Friday, November 04, 1966 Monessen, Pennsylvania
...to the American public -that on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY, ANY NFL team can team
is.....is first in the AFL in defense. ANY other team. The actual fact that
the..

 Valley Independent     Thursday, September 19, 1968 Monessen, Pennsylvania

...over St. Louis know how it is, on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY American football
league.....outcome when the two clubs meet again SUNDAY at Milwaukee. The
oddsmakers peg..

 Ironwood Daily Globe   Friday, September 26, 1969 Ironwood, Michigan
...angels fear to tread, and where on ANY GIVEN SUNDAY (or Saturday) ANY team
can.....beat ANY other. Now Atlanta at Los Angeles..

   Chronicle Telegram   Sunday, November 01, 1970 Elyria, Ohio
...undoubtedly heard the expression "ANY GIVEN SUNDAY." There have been too m
ANY.....for pick-up. Fits moot sptcei-almott ANY area, portable, or have it
builtin..
 Sheboygan Press    Friday, November 17, 1972 Sheboygan, Wisconsin
...Of Houston GREEN BAY, Wis. (AP) On ANY GIVEN SUNDAY, as the National
Football.....has preached to the point of te dium, ANY team is capable o upsetting
ANY..

 Ironwood Daily Globe   Friday, September 28, 1973 Ironwood, Michigan
...2-0) at Houston (0-2) On ANY. GIVEN SUNDAY goes the old saying.
.But.....of the season. "I. don't think there's ANY question the ball club played well..


 Post Crescent  Tuesday, December 03, 1974 Appleton, Wisconsin
...certainly a reminder that the ANY GIVEN SUNDAY cliche is still
operative.....a turnabout of such proportions in ANY game involving supposedly evenly..

   Indiana Evening Gazette  Friday, October 31, 1975 Indiana, Pennsylvania
...are those who subscribe to the ANY GIVEN SUNDAY theory. And there have
been.....Not Give Thy Opponent An Advantage. ANY advantage, no matter how minute.
You..


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("on any given Saturday" + football)
   Chronicle Telegram   Friday, October 17, 1952 Elyria, Ohio
...the squad to the top single; ON ANY GIVEN SATURDAY in the fa 11. ONly
50.....Press Sports Writer The NatiONal FOOTBALL League is busy proving'ANY..

   Sheboygan Press  Wednesday, October 17, 1962 Sheboygan, Wisconsin
...0 loss to Southern California. "ON ANY GIVEN SATURDAY, 1 think this
offense.....Sports chatter It didn't happen ON the FOOTBALL field but it sure's
shootin..

   Coshocton Tribune    Monday, October 27, 1952 Coshocton, Ohio
...WATERS COLUMBUS (UP) ON ANY GIVEN SATURDAY afternoON, ANY FOOTBALL
team.....can beat ANY other FOOTBALL team..." quoted from..
Pg. 8, col. 4:
_Old Adage Is Still Timely_
_Ohio Football Teams Learn_
   By HARRY WATERS
   COLUMBUS (UP)--"On any given Saturday afternoon, any football team can
beat any other football team..." quoted from, the "Old Coaches' Book."
   That was the old tale with a fresh new meaning for young grid warriors of
several Ohio COlleges and a university today.

 Post Standard  Saturday, November 04, 1950 Syracuse, New York
...of scouting would be terrific. ON ANY GIVEN SATURDAY afternoON in there
are.....NEW and Columbia will renew an FOOTBALL feud ON Baker field with the..

 Mansfield News Journal     Tuesday, October 21, 1952 Mansfield, Ohio
...ANY other cONference team ON ANY GIVEN SATURDAY. battle for the of
thej.....ONcebeaten Ohio State in a Big Ten FOOTBALL clash ihis SATURDAY at Iowa..

   Oshkosh Northwestern     Monday, September 09, 1940 Oshkosh, Wisconsin
...to mONopolize the headlines. ON ANY GIVEN SATURDAY, almost ANYthing
may.....By Harry Stuhlrireher. WiscON sin FOOTBALL Coach, Written for the..
Pg. 15, col. 1:
_BADGERS HAVE A_
_FIGHTING CHANCE_
_IN GRID GAMES_
_Stuhldreher of Opinion All_
_Eight Opponents on the_
_Fall Schedule Will Be_
_Formidable_
(By Harr Stuhldreher, Wisconsin Football Coach, Written for the Associated
Press)
   Madison--All signs point to the probability that the football season of
1940 will be marked by close games and brilliant play.  No team is likely to
monopolize the headline.  On any given Saturday, almost anything may happen in
any game.

 Ironwood Daily Globe   Monday, September 09, 1940 Ironwood, Michigan
...to mONopolize the headlines. ON ANY GIVEN. SATURDAY, almost ANYthing
may.....the from college to professiONal FOOTBALL after eight seasONs at..


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("on any given Sunday")
    This Morning With Shirley Povich
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 3, 1942. p. 9 (1
page):
   Until Saturday, full credit was being withheld from the Redskins on
account of Baugh.  It was Baugh who took the team wherever it went.  His passes were
appraised by the gamblers as worth 14 points to the Redskins on any given
Sunday, before they took the field.

    Sports of The Times; In Rude Rebuttal All the Ingredients Front and Back
The Matter of Schedules
By ARTHUR DALEYEarl Blaik. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York,
N.Y.: Oct 25, 1950. p. 48 (1 page) :
   The pros have a toughie every week and even the lesser lights have enough
talent to take the big boys if they let down on any given Sunday.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("on any given Saturday")
    1.  CADDIES' INCOME DEEPLY CUT BY RAINY SUMMER; Donaghey Has Something to
say Of and For the Boys Who Tote the Golf Bags.
FREDERICK DONAGHEY. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 8,
1915. p. B3 (1 page)

    2.  MANY CLOSE GAMES ON GRIDIRON TODAY; Crowley Warns of Possible Upsets,
but Believes Notre Dame Will Defeat Navy. PICKS YALE OVER BROWN Thinks
Harvard Will Down Holy Cross and Penn Will Conquer Penn State. COLUMBIA FACES A
BATTLE Georgetown Seems Stronger Than Syracuse and N.Y.U. Has Edge Over the
Fordham Eleven.
By CHARLES F. CROWLEY.. New York Times (1857. Oct 15, 1927. p. 9 (1 page)
(By Charles R. Crowley, Head Columbia Football Coach--ed.)
   No coach can tell with any amount of certainty whether he is going to run
into an Autumn breeze or a howling hurricane on any given Saturday afternoon.

    3.  Sports of the Times; An Early Fall. Coming Events. Places to Go.
Worse and More of It.
By JOHN KIERAN.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 16,
1928. p. 39 (1 page) :
   The trouble with football these days is that there are too many "big
games" on any given Saturday from mid-October until Thanksgiving Day.

    4.  Sports of the Times; Running Through Light Signal Drills. Primed for
Defeat. Taking the Air at New Haven. Resuming an Old Debate. The Retort
Courteous. Night Life on the Gridiron.
Reg. U.S. Pat. Off. By JOHN KIERAN.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New
York, N.Y.: Oct 10, 1930. p. 28 (1 page) :
   He aims to be ready if there's an opening for a good drop-kicker in any
given Saturday.

    5.  Over the Fence and Out.
Reg. U.S. Pat. Off.By JOHN KIERAN.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New
York, N.Y.: Feb 17, 1933. p. 24 (1 page)

    6.  FOG LIFTS SLIGHTLY ON GRID RADIO SITUATION; Local Football Fans Won't
Be Able to Tune in on Out-of-Town Contests It Is Feared
BRAVEN DYER. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun
14, 1933. p. A9 (2 pages)

    7.  This Morning With Shirley Povich; Football Map of the United States
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 21, 1940. p. 16 (1
page) :
   ...Mr. Tommy Harmon.  That young man appears able to score as many
touchdowns as is necessary on any given Saturday afternoon.

    8.  SPORT POSTSCRIPTS; Postscripts
PAUL ZIMMERMAN. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.:
Nov 22, 1940. p. A9 (2 pages)
First page:  Undoubtedly you can pick a team that--on its college
performance--could defeat this eleven; but you will have to admit that this is a pretty
fair country aggregation that would give a very good account of itself on any
given gridiron on any given Saturday.


(WWW.PAPEROFRECORD.COM)
   11 October 1950, THE SPORTING NEWS, pf. 42, col. 1:
   "Green Bay is a real title threat in the National Football League and is
liable, if not likely, to beat any team in the league on any given Sunday."
   This was Clark Shaughnessy's reaction here following Green Bay's sudden
upswing in power that was featured by a somewhat astounding 31 to 21 victory
over the Chicago Bears on October 1.

   26 September 1951, THE SPOORTING NEWS, pg. 46, col. 4:
   The Steelers are a rock-and-sock-'em group which on any given Sunday can
whip the best.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 21 01:03:30 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 21:03:30 -0400
Subject: "Do others before they do you" (1895)
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.210330.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DO UNTO OTHERS BEFORE--2,890 Google hits, 5,440 Google Groups hits
DO UNTO OTHERS BEFORE OTHERS UNDO YOU--41 Google hits, 29 Google Groups hits
DO OTHERS BEFORE THEY DO--28 Google hits, 7 Google Groups hits
DO OTHERS OR THEY'LL DO YOU--3 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits

   Many years ago (about 1990, when I first met Gerald Cohen), I was thinking of writing a book about the history and meaning and origin and variations of "the Golden Rule."  I'd studied the origin of weights and measures, and related it to the origin of language and "gematria."  It's a fascinating story.
   This was many years ago, before I found my true worth doing endless hours of parking tickets.
   Fred Shapiro no doubt will want to include "the Golden Rule."  The famous American variation can be found in the popular novel DAVID HARUM (1898), but Newspaperarchive shows a variation from 1895.


(CATNYP)
Westcott, Edward Noyes, 1847-1898.
Title David Harum; a story of American life.
Imprint New York, Appleton, 1898.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
   Daily Northwestern  Friday, January 04, 1895 Oshkosh, Wisconsin
...version of tbeUolden Rule is" DO .OTHERS BEFORE THEY DO YOU." There were.....DO this. What seems possible is that BEFORE tho tax Is collected the law -may..
Pg. 1, col. 7:
   The way of the water works man is by no means always pleasant.  The average manager of a water plant is generally put down by the public as a sort of green goods man or bunco steerer, or some other individual whose version of the Golden Rule is "Do others before they do you."

  Trenton Times  Monday, January 01, 1900 Trenton, New Jersey
...you." DO -not "raphrase this into "DO OTHERS BEFORE "icy DO but read it.....of our old copybooh-t school. "DO UNTO OTHERS 'as you would they should DO..
Pg. 4?, col. 3:
   "Do unto others as you would that they should do unto you."  Do not paraphrase this into "Do others before they do you," but read it aright.

  Daily Northwestern  Wednesday, October 30, 1901 Oshkosh, Wisconsin
...Harum's maxim in trading "DO UNTO OTHERS as they would DO UNTO you and DO.....may believe In and that Is 'OTHERS BEFORE they DO you." At any rate; it la..
Pg. 2, col. 2:
   But there are a few who believe in David Harum's maxim in trading horses: "Do unto others as they would do unto you--and do it fust."  There is also another phrase that some farmers may believe in and that is "Do others before they do you."

  Reno Evening Gazette  Tuesday, April 09, 1907 Reno, Nevada
...to Unwritten Law, "The Oldest UNTO OTHERS as You Would UNTO You999 DECLARES.....shall go DOwn, where so. many OTHERS. BEFORE''me, ania disappear from the..

  Bedford Gazette  Friday, November 24, 1922 Bedford, Pennsylvania
...not to wait. ducts of her soil. DO UNTO OTHERS as you would that vereity If.....for' towns to offer thus: "DO OTHERS BEFORE they "V uia is able to start its...
Pg. 5, col. 3:
   We too often let the enemy, Selfishness, get into our hearts and try to revise the Golden Rule, making it read thus: "Do others before they do you."

  Indiana Weekly Messenger  Thursday, December 14, 1922 Indiana, Pennsylvania
...DOwn the the street read like this DO UNTO OTHERS as you On Saturday night 1.....s, that nearly all the it DO OTHERS BEFORE they DO flju-iinsss men have..
Pg. 4, col. 2:
   I remember in 1826 the golden rule read like this--Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.  Now it reads--Do others before they do you.

  Monessen Daily Independent  Monday, June 04, 1934 Monessen, Pennsylvania
...finished digesting the steak. DO UNTO OTHERS BEFORE they unDO you. They tell.....these two minutes than was experienced BEFORE on a show ground. Tlie show will..

  Hammond Times  Thursday, October 22, 1942 Hammond, Indiana
...good. Russia it is definitely "DO UNTO OTHERS BEFORE OTHERS DO UNTO Is revised.....the session. Dr. Stoddard's talk, made BEFORE a full auditorium, was titled..


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
   GERMAN FLEET AT HONGKONG.; Japan's Movements Excites the Distrust of the Foreign Office at Berlin. Policies May Be Changed. Golden Rule of Diplomacy.
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Aug 30, 1900. p. 4 (1 page):
      _Golden Rule of Diplomacy._
   These promises and programs reminded a cultured observer recently of the golden rule, "that is, the golden rule as formulated by David Harum, 'do unto others as you think they would do unto you, and be sure you do it first.'  Russia did it first."

   STATE SNAPSHOTS.; YE SODA CLERK. NEVER TAKES A DAY OFF.
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Aug 8, 1901. p. 9 (1 page):
   The Keswick correspondent of the Reading Searchlight says that the motto: "Do others or they'll do you," is responsible for a great deal of misery and dishonesty.  He should follow the Los Angeles doctrine--"Do others before they do you."

   Do Others or They'll Do You?
V.H.J.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 25, 1906. p. 8 (1 page)

   SCOUTS GOLDEN RULE.; Chief Shippy Tells Association That Present Theory Is "Do Others Before They Do You."
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 4, 1908. p. I4 (1 page)


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Jun 21 01:49:59 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 21:49:59 -0400
Subject: The second syllable of "little, cattle, subtle"
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.214959.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What you think of the following exchange?

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 20:17:59 -0400
From: Marc Picard <marcpicard at SYMPATICO.CA>
Reply-To: American Name Society <ANS-L at LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU>
To: ANS-L at LISTSERV.BINGHAMTON.EDU
Subject: Re: Back-formation

On Dimanche, juin 20, 2004, at 07:14  pm, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, MARC PICARD wrote:
>
> #
> #On Samedi, juin 19, 2004, at 02:16  am, MPI EVA Jakarta Field Station
> #wrote:
> #
> #> 'butl' with a syllabic 'l', I presume :)
> #
> #That would be impossible since the /t/ is flapped and flapping
> #absolutely requires a following vowel. The only syllabic consonant in
> #North American English is /n/. Notice the absence of flapping in
> #cotton, Latin, fatten as opposed to little, subtle, cattle.
> #
> #Marc Picard
> #
> I've been speaking North American English all my life -- over half a
> century
> -- and I say "little, subtle, cattle" with a syllabic /l/, laterally
> released from the /t/ as the second peak.

I guess that makes you one of a kind. Personally, I've never heard any
North American pronounce these words without a flap nor have I ever
seen what you describe reported in the literature. And I'm probably
older than you are.


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Jun 21 02:00:28 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 19:00:28 -0700
Subject: The second syllable of "little, cattle, subtle"
In-Reply-To: <200406201850.1bCdWMkE3NZFlr0@killdeer>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.190028.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think they can absolutely be pron'd with a syllabic l.  They
certainly can be pron'd with a schwa between a flapped t and the l,
but I agree with Mark, that the t isn't always a flapped one and can
be released laterally..

Rima


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Jun 21 02:08:07 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 22:08:07 -0400
Subject: Absolute "not so much" = "not really"
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.220807.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A friend has observed the recent (?) currency of the phrase
"not so much" used absolutely, i.e. without any following
correlative prepositional phrase or complement, in a meaning
something like 'no; not at all; not really'. He said he first
noticed it as something the Leo McGarry character on _West
Wing_ says. We have only a few examples:

2004 _Hotdog_ Apr. 10/1 A romantic thriller?
Interesting. Starring Josh Hartnett? Not so much.

2004 _N.Y. Times_ 15 June B1 (headline) The Killer Gown Is
Essential, but the Prom Date? Not So Much.

It sounds perfectly natural to me, so of course I can't think
of when I first heard it. Anyone have any grammatical or other
observations? Larry? Arnold?

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Jun 21 02:22:56 2004
From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 19:22:56 -0700
Subject: Chess Pie (1866); OT: Restaurant Week in NYC
In-Reply-To: <200406190030.i5J0UCMt008782@mxe2.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.192256.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wasn't chess pie called Jefferson Davis pie in the South?

OK, here is what I've found in the cookbook I'm using for a reference --
Joy of Cooking (30th printing, May 1983): Jefferson Davis Pie is a great
deal like the Pecan Pie, with these exceptions: it's creamy (1 cup cream
will do that!), but Rombauer still considers it a "transparent" pie; it
has dates, raisins, and fewer pecans (plus, they are put in as "broken bits").
A note says that without the* nuts* and spices, this becomes Kentucky Pie
(I think I will put it in my novel).  Following that recipe is one for Chess
Tarts (there is no Chess *Pie* in this cookbook).  This calls for baked
tart crusts and the Jefferson Davis Pie recipe, omitting the *dates* and
spices. So, three variations.  Here, Rombauer notes that the origins of
the various transparent pies are: Shoo-fly pie(slightly cakier),
Pennsylvania Dutch; Chess Pie (English, where they call them Banbury
tarts); and the Jefferson Davis and various pecan pies, and their
variations.

Now, curiously, the most recent Joy of Cooking has omitted many things,
among them Jefferson Davis Pie.  She does carry a recipe for Chess Pie,
"now chiefly a southern specialty."  "Chess pies . . . are essentially
pecan pies without the nuts."  Clearly one of the things this version of
the cookbook has lost is some of its tantilizing history!  Although with a
great deal more warnings -- all transparent pies curdle, with the
exception of Shoo-Fly Pie, which .....

I know this isn't "first siting," but it shows what happens to cookbooks
over time too.

Most recent Joy is the hefty (1136 pages, compared with the 916 of the
other one I cited) tome which came out in 1997, just in time for the
Christmas gift rush.

Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Chess Pie (1866); OT: Restaurant Week in NYC
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> OT:  RESTAURANT WEEK IN NYC
>  =20
>    It's restaurant week in New York City--for the next _two_ weeks.  The=20
> "prix fixe" is at $20.12, to help NYC get the 2012 Olympics and to swindle a=
> nother=20
> eight cents from the expected $20.04.
>    If you're coming to NYC, e-mail me and we'll make a reservation.  I must=20
> caution that I am on the rebound from Jennifer Lopez.
>  =20
> (GOOGLE)
> Summer Restaurant Week 2004 Summer Restaurant Week June 21-25 & June 28-July=
> =20
> 2. ... and three-course dinners for $30.12 to show support for New York=E2=
> =80=99s Bid=20
> to host the 2012 Olympic Games ...=20
> www.nycvisit.com/content/index.cfm?pagePkey=3D241 - 31k - Cached - Similar=20
> pages
>   =20
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> --
> --------------------------------------------- =20
> CHESS PIE
>        =20
>    "Chess Pie" should certainly be in the forthcoming OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA ON=
> =20
> FOOD AND DRINK IN AMERICA.  I don't know what it has on "chess pie"...I was=20
> recently informed that "chicken a la king" (probably in the top 100 American=
> =20
> dishes) isn't mentioned at all, not even under "chicken"!
>    Again, John Mariani's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN FOOD AND DRINK has 1928 fo=
> r=20
> "chess pie," and DARE has 1932 for "chess pie."  I had found several=20
> citations in the early 1880s.  (See ADS-L archives.)
>    Old cookbooks take "chess pie" to the 1870s.  Newspaperarchive has it fro=
> m=20
> 1866.  I'll try to do better with the full-text CHICAGO TRIBUNE from the=20
> 1840s, 1850s, and 1860s.  I doubt that I'll find "chess pie" in the digitize=
> d=20
> EARLY AMERICAN NEWSAPAPERS (which are mostly pre-1825).
>      =20
>  =20
> (FEEDING AMERICA)
> http://digital.lib.msu.edu/cookbooks/searchresultswithin.cfm?start=3D11
> CHESS-PIE=20
> Practical Cooking and Dinner Giving. A Treatise Containing Practical=20
> Instructions in Cooking; in the Combination and Serving of Dishes; and in th=
> e=20
> Fashionable Modes of Entertaining at Breakfast, Lunch, and Dinner. New York:=
>  Harper &=20
> Brothers, 1876.
>     =20
> CHESS PIE=20
> Buckeye Cookery, and Practical Housekeeping: Compiled from Original Recipes.=
> =20
> Minneapolis, Minn.: Buckeye Pub. Co., 1877.
>      =20
> =20
> (WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
>  Coshocton Age  Friday, October 12, 1866 Coshocton, Ohio   =20
> ...fruit or vegetables to bo preserved. CHESS PIE. For" two pics common=20
> size..   =20
> Pg. 4, col. 1: =20
>    CHESS PIE.--For two pies common size, take 4 eggs, 3 cups sugar, 1 cup=20
> cream, 1/2 cup butter, 1 tablespoonful flour, and flavor with nutmeg.  Cover=
>  the=20
> baking plates with crust, pour in the mixture, and grate nutmeg over it. =20
> There is no upper crust.  When a pretty brown, try with a spoon as for custa=
> rd. =20
> This is the best pie we ever ate.
>


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Mon Jun 21 03:06:47 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:06:47 -0400
Subject: Chess Pie (1866); OT: Restaurant Week in NYC
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.230647.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From: "J. Eulenberg" <eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: Chess Pie (1866); OT: Restaurant Week in NYC


> Wasn't chess pie called Jefferson Davis pie in the South?

Perhaps.  Barry found a cite from 1909.  Proquest Historical has a cite from
1907.  These are the earliest I could find.  And you have to use "Jeff Davis
Pie" to find some of them.

Makes you wonder if the pie was truly served back in the day.

Sam Clements


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 21 03:30:27 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 23:30:27 -0400
Subject: Romesco, Cremat, Parrillada, Calcotada, Suquet (1964)
Message-ID: <SUN.20.JUN.2004.233027.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NIU + ALLIOLI--14 English Google hits, 1 Google Group hit
SUQUET + POT--278 English Google hits, 6 Google Groups hits
PARRILLADA--21,500 Google hits, 1,720 Google Groups hits
A LA BRASA--827 English Google hits, 1,180 Google Groups hits
(Romesco, Cremat, Parrillada, Calcotada, Niu, Suquet, and a la brasa are all NOT in the OED)


   Two interesting books, both from 1964, with a few pages on the cuisine that I'll copy below.
   At least _some_ of these should make the OED soon...I want to fly to Barcelona right now.



TARRAGONA
by Jose Maria Espinas
Barcelona: Editorial Noguer
1964

Pg. 43:  CUISINE
   It is only to be expected that the typical cuisine in Tarragona should be characterized by the same features as the _Catalan cuisine_ which are also those of the Provence, Majorca and the Mediterranean in general.  It may surprise the reader to know that one of the first
Pg. 44:
cookery books ever printed following the invention of the printing press, was a text by Ruperto Nola, published in Barcelona in 1520.
   Tarragona contributes to the Catalan gastronomical perspective with dishes of rare quality, mainly due to the goodness of the natural products of the _Camp de Tarragona_, like hazel nuts from La Selva del Campo, and the fine olive oil from Reus and Tortosa, not counting the marvelllous sea food, so rich in variety.
   _Seafood dishes_ play a fundamental role in the typical cuisine of Tarragona.  The _Zarzuela_ is a rich dish composed of many different kinds of fish and shellfish; the _Parrillada_ is also made with a variety of fish, all of it grilled and sometimes served on straw baskets.  A portion of any of the two makes an abundant meal for almost anybody.  For fish dishes Tarragona has created a rich sauce, the _Romesco_, which has rapidly become popular along the whole coastline.  It is made with garlic, tomatoes and peppers pounded on a mortar and mixed with toasted almonds.  The resulting paste is thinned down with vinegar and olive oil, seasoned with salt and white pepper and left standing for a few hours before finally being strained.  Like all recipes, this one has a few variations on the amount and distribution of its elements, and the right amount of everything is the key to success.  Tarragona holds a yearly _competition for Romesco_ where the best cooks on the coast make their own special dishes with Romesco.  The lucky jury whose agreeable task it is to compare the best qualities in each separate delicacy, confer the prices and the title of _Mestre Romescaire_ (Master of Romesco).
   The _prawns_ from San Carlos and Cases d'Alcanar are one of the favourite dishes, in preference even to the excellent fish the coast offers.
   Valls has a special winter delicacy which attracts visitors from January to April.  The _calcots_, or young onions cooked, seasoned and dipped in their special sauce.  They are eaten with your fingers and a big serviette is available to wipe greasy fingers.  This usually accompanies either grilled lamb or pork sausages and is called _calcotada_.  The accompaniment to this gastronomic concert is the local wine, very strong and stimulating.  Valls is the meeting point for cars and coaches when the season for the _calcots_ starts.  The barbecue in the open air creates an atmosphere that reminds one of some old popular engraving.
   _Pastry_ is also very good.  Besides the popular _mona_ (a decorated gateau traditionally given by godparents to children at Easter, and sometimes decorated with the utmost fantasy), and the _panellets_
Pg. 45:
(another specialty of Catalonia to mark the festivity of All Saints on the 1st of November), the province of Tarragona contributes with delicious varieties based mainly on the fine almonds that part of the country grows, like _rifaclis_ and _carquinyolis_ from L'Espluga de Francoli, _merlets_ or _montblanquins_ from Montblanch, _bufats_ from El Vendreli, _menjar blanc_ from Reus, _pastissets_ from Tortosa, etc.
   The _wines_ deserve a special mention.  For one thing, part of the wine growing county El Penedes belongs, administratively speaking, to Tarragona, but besides this, the local wines are the _Priorato_ and the _Tarragona_.  Priorato is a wine produced in the county of this name whose soil is rich in sulfuric slate called _llicorella_; cultivation is hard and the crop small but the wine is excellent and of high alcoholic content.  It can be drunk pure and it makes a delicious strong drink or it can be used to reinforce weaker wines.  French vintagers have successfully used it for a long time for their "coupages".  The Tarragona is just as good as table or dessert wine.  Another one we can mention is the highly appreciated _Gandesa_.
   There are also a few anisettes and liqueurs worthwhile trying.  Vintaged in Tarragona and of world-wide fame are Chartreuse and Pernod, the later having a higher grade here than in France where it is known as _Tarragone_.  The dry _aguardiente_ anisettes from Valls are very famous.



THE COSTA BRAVA
by Nestor Lujan
Barcelona: Editorial Noguer
1964

Pg. 36:  San Pedro de Roda was founded so long ago that in the year 943 it was already said to be ancient.  During the whole of the Middle Ages the Benedictine friars ruled the country, protecting the fishing that was the basis of their food and producing great quantities of olive oil.  This makes Jose Pla think that perhaps it was they who introduced the _allioli_* into the cooking of fish in our country after having tasted it during some visit to Provence.  The fondness of the Benedictine monks for these fish dishes cooked with garlic is obvious from the old documents in the convent of San Feliu de Guixols.
   *_Allioli_ is a Catalan colloquialism for a kind of sauce made from olive oil with garlic added, and much used in the cooking of fish dishes on the Costa Brava.

Pg. 37:  THE CUISINE OF THE COSTA BRAVA
   The Guide could not end without a chapter on cooking.  In general, food in the whole of Catalonia is very good and on the Costa Brava, it is excellent.  As far as fish is concerned, on the Coast, as long the whole Mediterranean, it is cooked according to old and firm ritual.  Cooking is done mainly with olive oil which greases lightly and fries efficiently.  Thus in honour of old Mediterranean cultivation--the olive and the grape--a chapter on cooking had to be included.  And remembering Brillat-Savarin who said that the
Pg. 38:
discovery of a new dish is more important than the discovery of a new star, it has been thought worthwhile to give some indications on possible new dishes, and others with a strong flavour particular to this Coast.
   As might be expected the basis of the Costa Brava cuisine is fish, although this does not mean that there is not realyl excellent quality meat, mutton in L'Escala and on the whole Coast in general, the sausages of Palagrugell, game in Cadaques.  But the rich variety of fish along the sea-coast, and the palate of the _gerundeses_* of these regions have created some very noteworthy dishes.  Thus, the first of these indications concerns fish; the best fish on the Coast is _nero_ or jewfish.  This fish is found among rocks, is black and gold, muscular and hard.  _Nero_ is good whichever way it is cooked: grilled, baked, fried, cooked in rice or _suquet_.  The flesh of _nero_ is so tasty, so rich and savoury, that it permits any kind of manipulation.  Rice with heads of _nero_ is the ypical dish of Fornells and the whole of this sea-coast.
   _Dentol_, a species of porgy, is a butcher of a fish, and luminous.  _Dentol_, like bass, serves gloriously for a fish _suquet_.  This _suquet_ is nothing more or less than a mixed "pot" of Mediterranean fish.  According to latitude this "pot" will have different characteristics, reaching the sublime in Provence with the masterly _bouillabaisse_.  On the Costa Brava _suquet_ is made in a primitive way, if possible over a quick wood fire, and has a magnificent sauce made with oil, tomato, onion, garlic, and is extraordinarily vivid.  _Suquet_ can be had in any popular restaurant but it reaches its best in L'Escala and the inn "Casa la Neus".
   Another fish of excellent quality that can be eaten without hesitation along the whole Coast is _roger_ or red mullet.  This fish is really exceptional in Tossa, above all in the month of July, in Lloret, Blanes, along the coast of Torroella and among the rocks of Cape Bagur.  Red mullet is a voracious, greedy fish that even eats meat, and its quality depends on the food on which it has lived.  That caught in water whose bed is stony and well-provided with seaweed is best; it is big, with a round head and very hard flesh, and when it is cooked it turns a flaming red.  Mullet should be eaten _a la brasa_** with garlic and parsley, and even lightly scented by a tiny spray of fennel.
  * _Gerundeses_ are the people of the whole region of Gerona as well as the county town of the same name.
   ** Cooking _a la brasa_ is very popular in the Costa Brava, and might be defined as grilling either fish or meat without any oil or fat; it is often done on hot cinders.
Pg. 39:
   AMong others, the blue fish is of very fine quality on the Coast.  Sardines in May and August make a succulent breakfast.  Bought as the fishermen step out of their boats in Tossa, L'Escala, Blanes, Cadaques or Sa Riera, cooked _a la brasa_ using pine wood in the morning, when they are fat, their colour a varnished blue, and accompanied by a fine, light dry wine of Ampurias or Llagostera, they are unforgettable.  _Verat_ or mackerel, eaten the same way, is tronger and requires a wine with more body, denser, rose or red.  Anchovies are not eaten on the Coast but pickled in brine.  In Tossa and above all in L'Escala they are prepared in a very singular way.  A jar of a hundred anchovies might be one of the best souvenirs of these places, if of brief duration, although they keep for years.
   Fish soup is good anywhere.  Its base is usually, _Burras_, _aranas_, _rape_ etc., and above all grouper and dory which in our latitude are the best elements for fish soup.  As for _arroz de pescado_ (fish cooked in rice), the best is that made with crabs and the first green peas of the season.  If the conger eels which are to be found near Tossa in thecove of Giberola are added, this rice becomes literally extraordinary.  Rice with lobster is an excellent dish, strong and aromatic.  If shrimps are used as a base, the rice is likely to be a little soft and sticky.
   _Bogavante_ a local variety of lobster is caught i Fornells, Calella and above all in Cadaques and is as delicate as lobster.  It is best eaten cooked _a la brasa_ with a vinaigrette_; lobster is also served this way.
   There is an old unsettled argument as to which is best, _bogavante_ or lobster_.  The finest palates aredivided on this question and it is the basis of fiery discussions among the gourmets of the Coast.  Lobster _a la Catalana_ might be tried.  It has a basis of chocolate but possibly this dish is not native to the Coast and it is rather artificially concocted.  However, a dish that is native to the Coast is that of lobster and chicken, from the region round Palafrugell and Palamos.  This dish, which the writer has eaten in private houses in Calella and in the Hotel Trias of Palamos, is sumptuous and noble, and is served with an opulent, magic sauce, golden-brown in colour and very difficult to make perfectly.  For this dish the Hotel Trias in Palamos can be recommended as having one of the best cuisines on thecoast.
   Another typical dish is lobster and snails and, in the region of Palamos, the celebrated _niu_.  _Niu_ or nest is a dish based on salt cod potatoes and pigeons and covered, with _allioli_ which is like a golden
Pg. 40:
lava and makes it vividly gay.  This dish, strong, violent and heavy, is almost feudal and avokes memories of ancient Ampurdian.
  Molluscs (_mejillones_) have been devastated on the Coast.  Molluscs thrive best among rocks very battered by the waves, above all if sweet water filtres in; only in Cadaques--and perhaps in L'Estartit--is there still anything like an appreciable quantity, especially in a year of abundant rain.  In cadaques they are eaten boiled and are recommended as an _entree_; they have an odour and taste which are penetrating, briny and delicious.  In cadaques partridges from Cape Creus can be had in season and in La Selva magnificent woodcock.  Pork is excellent along the whole region.  _Butifarra de perol_ with haricot beans and the sweet _butifarra_ (sausage) of Ampurdan--excellently prepared in Palafrugell--the point at which confectionery and cooking meet, is an exquisite dessert.  Likewise, speaking of dessert, Palamos takes the palm with its buns and cakes.  In lower Ampurdan, caramel custard reaches a high level of perfection.  In Lloret and Tossa the preserves are excellent and the delicious autumn compotes and preserves are memorable.
   As the country of the _indianos_, coffee has an enormous importance.  The combination which is called _cremat_: coffee, rum, sugar and lemon in a kind of punch, drunk in a tavern in Llafranc or L'Escala in the jolly company of a few sailors, helps the visitor to apreciate a life that is humble but warm, and intense.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 21 04:54:55 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 00:54:55 -0400
Subject: Puchero, Spanish Chocolate (1840); Gofio, Mojo (1966)
Message-ID: <MON.21.JUN.2004.005455.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PUCHERO, SPANISH CHOCOLATE

   I spotted this book on the shelf.  OED has 1841 for "puchero," but I've long since destroyed that.


RAMBLES IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF DON QUIXOTE
by the late H. D. Inglis
Philadelphia: Lea & Blanchard
1840

Pg. 13:  On half-hour I employed in executing judgment upon the mosquitos (Pg. 14--ed.) that had tormented me during the night; another, in chatting with a dark eyed damsel of the inn, who was engaged in preparing the ingredients of the _puchero_, and in helping her to strip the _garbanzos_, the large peas so indispensable to a Spanish kitchen; but as it would yet be many hours before the _puchero_ could be ready, I took my hat and walked into the street, where, in a strange town, there is always something fresh to be seen.

Pg. 71:  *The following is the composition of Spanish chocolate: (Pg. 72--ed.) to six pounds of the nut, are added three pounds an a half of sugar; seven pods of vanillas; one pound and a half of Indian corn; half a pound of cinnamon; six cloves; one dram of capsicum; and a small quantity of musk.

Pg. 129:  "...but _la necesidad carece de lay_; necessity has no law."
   "'T is a proverb among all nations," said I.--"You are my guide, Mr. Barber--and to return you proverb for proverb, _Mas sabe el necio en su casa que el cuerdo en la agena_; every man knos his own business best."

---------------------------------------------------------------
GOFIO, MOJO

GOFIO--21,400 Google hits, 1,840 Google Groups hits
GOFIO + CANARY--510 Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits
MOJO + CANARY--3,910 Google hits, 1,770 Google Groups hits


   OED does not have "gofio"?  No Canary "mojo"?  This is the "revised" OED?


(OED)
mojo, n.3
    A sauce or marinade of Cuban origin, containing garlic, olive oil, sour oranges and (freq.) other citrus fruits.
  [1982 N.Y. Times 12 Dec. X. 18/4 Ladi's chefs produce some extremely tasty fish, shrimp and octopus dishes, either cold in salads or mojo (wet) in tomato and onion sauces.] 1983 N.Y. Times (Nexis) 20 Feb. X. 12/1 [Pork] is often served with a red or green pepper mojo sauce. 1986 Daily Express 8 Nov. 25/2 Papas Arrigados..is cooked in salt, wrinkling the skin then doused with a fiery garlic mayonnaise called mojo. 1991 Time 19 Aug. 60/2 Not-too-sweet, no-too-tart salsas, mojos and adobados based on local fruits are vital flavoring ingredients. 1997 Gourmet June 36/2, I therefore get..a fragrant splatter announcing the completion of a garlic-and-citrus mojo (the Cuban sauce for pork and lots of other things). 2000 N.Y. Mag. 3 Jan. 38/2 They share the ceviche sampler, the mussels deliciously perfumed with smoked tomato and garlic chips, seafood paellita, or a mammoth stuffed pork chop with sour-orange mojo.


(GOOGLE)
Something You Didn't Know About Cajuns (Ilenos, Canary Islands)
... juice. It is descendant from the Canary Islands were there are hundreds
of MOJO recipes because the sauce originated there. IS MOJO ...
www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/764212/posts - 39k - Cached - Similar pages


   The following "Planeta Guide" is in a series on regions of Spain; unfortunately, NYU doesn't have all of them.
   You kind of knew that the NEW YORK TIMES (1982) would be beaten on this...Austin Powers has just told me that I shouldn't be giving OED my "mojo."


GRAND CANARY ISLAND
by A. Vazquez-Figueroa
Barcelona: Editorial Planeta
1966

Pg. 30:
_Cuisine._  Canary cooking, with its various delicious, traditional dishes, deserves a section to itself in our guide-book.  It shows marked differences from the style of cooking on the mainland.
   We have already mentioned the food called _gofio_--a mixture of ground, roasted cereals--which formed the islanders' staple diet at the time of the conquest.  Although other types of food have now been added to their normal diet, _gofio_ continues to play an important role in it, combined with bananas, fish, soup, etc.  The traditional breakfast on grand Canary Island is a cup of milky coffee to which a few spoonfuls of _gofio_ have been added.
   Also typical of the Canary Islands are the following dishes: _mojo_ (_mojo picon_ or _mojo colorado_), which is a pungent sauce made with olive oil, vinegar, garlic, pepper, cumin seed, chillis and salt.  Another variation--the green _mojo_ (_mojo verde_)--substitutes parsley for pepper.
   The _puchero_, or stew, for special occasions is the one known as the "seven-meat stew," or "puchero de las siete carnes," consisting of pork, veal, beef, chicken, rabbit, partridge, and pigeon.
   Potatoes form an important part of the islanders' diet.  The well-known _papas arrugadas_ served with _mojo picon_ is one of their favourite dishes, and they occasionally make it even more appetizing with the addition of _viejas_, a delicious fish considered a delicacy on the Canary Islands.
   Another common dish is the _sancocho_, which consists of dried fish stewed with vegetables and beans, then sprinkled with _gofio_ and served with _mojo picon_.
   Also forming part of the islanders' traditional cooking are pickled partridges and sardines (_perdices y sardinas en escabeche_), veal liver with a sauce made of peppers, stuffed squids, etc.
   The various Spanish regional dishes as well as international cooking are also catered for, and beautifully served.


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 21 15:12:17 2004
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:12:17 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Painting=20the=20po?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?rsche?=
Message-ID: <MON.21.JUN.2004.111217.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 5/25/04 11:50:34 PM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:


> e actually heard "Portia"/"Porsche" puns more often.? The one
> above seems a bit strained to me, not so much because of the one- vs.
> two-syllable issue but the consonant:? "Porch" and "Porsh" sound
> quite different to me, blonde or no blonde.
> 

If the joke has the speaker being drunk, then I guess the confujsion might 
make sense.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Jun 21 15:16:32 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:16:32 -0400
Subject: my second-favorite quotation
In-Reply-To: <893e0f891352.891352893e0f@homemail.nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.21.JUN.2004.111632.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, George Thompson wrote:

> I believe I have posted before that my second-favorite quotation is from
> Herman Hickman, the early 1950s Yale football coach.  When asked one
> year what his hopes were for the his team, he said that they were the
> same as every year, that the team would play at least well enough to
> keep the alumni sullen but not mutinous.

I think I never found a good source for this.  Do you know of any?  Even a
reasonably early secondary source would be good.

I forget, what is your first-favorite quotation?  My favorite one
currently is Maureen Dowd's "Why is all this a surprise again? I know our
hawks avoided serving in Vietnam, but didnt they, like, read about it?"

Fred


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET  Mon Jun 21 19:18:10 2004
From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Bob Fitzke)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 15:18:10 -0400
Subject: my second-favorite quotation
Message-ID: <MON.21.JUN.2004.151810.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Hickman quotation and the following from Jake Gaither have  been two of
my favorites. Gaither said (as best I can recall),"A lineman ought to be
agile, mobile, and hostile." I've always thought he should have included
"and el-i-gi-bile".

Bob
You do not reason a man out of something he was not reasoned into ---
Jonathon Swift
People are entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts---Anon.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: my second-favorite quotation


> On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, George Thompson wrote:
>
> > I believe I have posted before that my second-favorite quotation is from
> > Herman Hickman, the early 1950s Yale football coach.  When asked one
> > year what his hopes were for the his team, he said that they were the
> > same as every year, that the team would play at least well enough to
> > keep the alumni sullen but not mutinous.
>
> I think I never found a good source for this.  Do you know of any?  Even a
> reasonably early secondary source would be good.
>
> I forget, what is your first-favorite quotation?  My favorite one
> currently is Maureen Dowd's "Why is all this a surprise again? I know our
> hawks avoided serving in Vietnam, but didnt they, like, read about it?"
>
> Fred
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Jun 21 21:00:17 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:00:17 -0400
Subject: BE "front off"
Message-ID: <MON.21.JUN.2004.170017.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

HDAS defines "front v. 2." as "to act as a front (for someone)" and
goes on to note: "3. Esp. Black E. a. to put up a front of self
assurance; put up a bluff, esp. as part of a confidence game. - also
constr. with off."

In construction with "off," i.e. "to front (someone) off," it also
means "to cause to act as a front or to use as a front (for someone)."
e.g.:  "What you mean, slammin' the door in my face?! You don't own the
place! The white man own the place! He just frontin' your black ass
off!" This is from the 1971 LP, "Craps," by Richard Pryor on the Found
Money label.

In Saint Louis in the 'Fifties, "front (someone) off" meant "to best
someone in the game of insult-swapping" known as "jawing with
(someone)," "joning with (someone)," or "playing the dozens."

-Wilson Gray


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Jun 21 21:30:17 2004
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:30:17 -0400
Subject: my second-favorite quotation
Message-ID: <MON.21.JUN.2004.173017.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred Shapiro asks:
>
> I forget, what is your first-favorite quotation?  My favorite one
> currently is Maureen Dowd's "Why is all this a surprise again? I
> know our
> hawks avoided serving in Vietnam, but didnt they, like, read about
> it?"

Whenever I am asked the time of day, I reply, "the bawdy hand of the dial is upon the very prick of 17 minutes after 5 (or whatever).

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African
Theatre", Northwestern Univ. Pr., 1998.

>


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Jun 21 23:42:24 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:42:24 -0500
Subject: busking
Message-ID: <MON.21.JUN.2004.184224.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As a new subscriber, I was looking through the archives.  From Thu, 25
May 2000:

> Do others have hard evidence for busk in the US?  More than just
> personal knowledge of the term (which can be misleading)?

>From the magic/conjuring periodical _The New Phoenix_ #330 Oct 1955.

"Jardine Ellis was a sort of busking magician.  He would go to
some cafeteria in the afternoon and look for a likely prospect."

An electronic search also found "buskin":  "Frank Garcia back in the
magic fold again picking up the magic wand and doffing the buskin."
(_The Phoenix_ #253 18 April 1952)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 22 01:31:01 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 21:31:01 -0400
Subject: Tar Beach (1940)
Message-ID: <MON.21.JUN.2004.213101.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TAR BEACH--11,300 Google hits, 281 Google Groups hits

   A request came in for "Tar Beach."  I don't have the HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG handy because, of course, that volume is not out.
   A quick search of the usual databases finds the first real hit in the New York Times.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
AN EDEN IS FOUND ON EAST SIDE ROOF; Bachelor Grows Tomatoes, Peas, Petunias All Together in a Tenement Setting IT'S CALLED 'TAR BEACH' There's One Big Problem Now Facing This Amateur-Is the Corn Ready to Eat?
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 30, 1941. p. 11 (1 page) :
   PHOTO CAPTION:  William H. Geis at work on his flower and vegetable garden atop his home at 137 East Thirty-third Street.
   (OT: See ADS-L archives for "Thirty-Third and Third" or "toidy toid 'n toid"--ed.):
   Bamboo screens shut out the view of neighboring tenements, but the Empire State and Chrysler Buildings can be seen by any one resting on the comfortable deck chairs of the roof garden.  Cocoa matting lines the floor, whose composition gave inspiration for the name of the retreat, "Tar Beach."

GIRL IN A BIKINI SUIT AVENGED FOR SNARL
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 6, 1952. p. 39 (1 page):
   Two patrolmen went hunting on the "tar beaches" of the Bronx yesterday and in the line of duty captured a twenty-five-pound opossum.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: Greetings from Tar Beach: Almost an Obs. Report [Long]
... tale for another time). The rooftop was quite a treat, and the name tar beach is what city kids are known to call them. For you see ...
sci.astro.amateur - Jun 19, 2001 by William R. Meyers - View Thread (2 articles)

Re: Raised Ponds
... Country. Also The Botanical Gardens. Tar Beach was the Roof and Johnny pumps with a trash can on it was how we cooled of then. Now ...
rec.ponds - Jul 13, 2002 by APV206 at webtv.net - View Thread (26 articles)

Re: John Sebastion?
... I also have an album called 'Tar Beach' for the early '90's which is classic melodic Sebastian type folky pop. I think it's quite good. ...
rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic - Apr 10, 2002 by Leonardo - View Thread (13 articles)

Re: OT: Do you remember?
... Stoop ball and stick ball.(I think a home run was 2 sewers). The "Tar beach".(you went up to the roof on a hot day inflated a rubber pool and went for a dip). ...
alt.sport.bowling - Sep 28, 2000 by Joe Zachar - View Thread (87 articles)


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Tar Beach /
Author: Getz, Arthur.
Publication: New York : Dial Press, 1979
Document: English : Book : Fiction : Juvenile audience

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Title: Don't suppose
Author(s): Limahl. ; (Performer - prf)
Publication: Hayes, Middlesex, England :; EMI Records Ltd.,
Year: 1984
Description: 1 sound disc :; analog, 33 1/3 rpm, stereo. ;; 12 in.
Language: English
Standard No: Publisher: EJ-2401561; EMI Records Ltd.; PLML-1; EMI Records Ltd.; LCCN: 93-851770
Contents: Don't suppose -- That special something -- Your love -- Too much trouble -- Never ending story -- Only for love -- I was a fool -- The waiting game -- Tar Beach -- Oh girl.

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
On tar beach
Corp Author: Dead Beats (Musical group) Publication: France :; New Rose, 1985
Document: English : Sound Recording : Music : Rock music :

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Tar Beach & beyond /
Author: Reuben, Charles, 1957-
Publication: Albuquerque, N.M. (1308 Orchard Pl. NW, Albuquerque 87104) : Autumn Press, 1989
Document: English : Book

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Tar beach, the woman on the bridge series
Author: Ringgold, Faith. Publication: [S.l.] : CRIZMAC Art and Cultural Education Materials, 1990-1995?
Document: English : Visual Material : Artwork reproduction
Libraries Worldwide: 2

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Tar Beach /
Author: Elman, Richard M.
Publication: Los Angeles : Sun & Moon Press, 1991
Document: English : Book : Fiction

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Tar Beach /
Author: Ringgold, Faith.
Publication: New York : Crown Publishers, 1991
Document: English : Book : Fiction : Juvenile audience

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Tar Beach
Author: Sebastian, John, 1944- Publication: [Newton, NJ.] :; Shanachie, 1992
Document: English : Sound Recording : Music : Multiple forms :


(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark TAR BEACH
Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 025. US 039. G & S: Shirts, Sweatpants and Shorts. FIRST USE: 19810616. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19810720
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Serial Number 73341421
Filing Date December 14, 1981
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition May 17, 1983
Supplemental Register Date March 7, 1983
Registration Number 1238973
Registration Date May 17, 1983
Owner (REGISTRANT) Goldberg; Howard d.b.a. Aumont Productions INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES Crescent Beach Rd. Glen Cove NEW YORK 11542
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register SUPPLEMENTAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Cancellation Date October 3, 1989


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
  Marion Star  Thursday, August 08, 1940 Marion, Ohio
...for his hobby in his visits to the TAR BEACHES. wood, fourth; three-galled..
Pg. 9, col. 3:
_RETURN FROM TRIP_
   Rev. M. L. Buckley and daughter Dorothy of 454 Bellefontaine avenue have returned from an extensive motor tour through the west.  Leaving here July 6, they covered 8,500 miles, visiting Salt Lake City, Grand, Bryce and Zion canyons, spent several days in Los Angeles, San Francisco where they attended the World's Fair, toured Hollywood and other points of interest in California.  Later they went to Washington, returning home by way of the Black Hills.  Rev. Nuckley who is making a study of archaeology found a great deal of material for his hobby in his visits to the tar beaches.

(Not really a good hit, IMHO--Barry Popik)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Jun 22 06:31:50 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 02:31:50 EDT
Subject: Cemitas & Papalo; Life's a Beach (1984); Pina Colada (1950);
 Consumer Program
Message-ID: <TUE.22.JUN.2004.023150.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CEMITAS & PAPALO
  
CEMITAS--233 Google hits, 65 Google Groups hits
PAPALO + HERB--104 Google hits, 20 Google Groups hits
   (Neither "cemita" nor "papalo" is in the OED)
      
   I just finished watching "Secret Life of the Sandwich" on the Food 
Network.  I learned a few things. 
   I learned that the "peanut butter and jelly sandwich" was probably 
invented during World War II.  I learned that the "BLT" is never mentioned.  I 
learned that, if you host a show like this, you can step into the Stage Deli in NYC 
and take up ten minutes' air time of a thirty minute show to describe "your" 
sandwich.  I learned that I should never waste my time watching the Food 
Network or I'll go mad.
   "Secret Life of Popcorn" is coming soon--maybe Andy Smith is on 
that...There's a "hot dog" show airing again on July 5th, if Gerald Cohen wants to go 
mad.
   I mentioned "cemita" (a Mexican sandwich from Puebla) once before on 
ADS-L..  There was the following nice write-up in last Wednesday's NEW YORK DAILY 
NEWS food section.  "Cemita" and "papalo" are not yet in the Proquest LOS 
ANGELES TIMES (now at 1964), but they'll appear somewhat soon.
  
  
(NY DAILY NEWS)
http://www.nydailynews.com/06-16-2004/city_life/food/story/203102p-175256c.htm
l
Mexico's street sub         
A cemita plays its roll in the round    
By RACHEL WHARTON 
    
Tortas, we love you, but there's another Mexican sandwich that's winning our 
hearts. Called a cemita, it's bigger, rounder and, sadly, a little harder to 
find throughout the city. 
  
Named for its circular, slightly sweet roll, cemitas are stacked with meats, 
cheese and chilies, and are a classic street snack from the state of Puebla in 
central Mexico. They most likely get their name from acemite, a Spanish word 
referring to wheat flour.
  
"There are two things that distinguish cemitas from other sandwich-type 
foods, and from tortas," says Karen Hursh Graber, food editor of the Web site 
Mexico Connect (mexconnect.com) and an author of regional Mexican cookbooks. "One 
is the roll itself, which is chewy, with a hard crust covered with sesame 
seeds. The other is the herb papalo, which is pungent and is definitely the 
distinguishing taste of cemitas."
  
Around town, you can get cemitas for $3 to $5 in Mexican neighborhoods such 
as Sunset Park, Brooklyn, where many hail from Puebla. Several small 
restaurants make and sell their own rolls, which are crowned with a small topknot. You 
can find the all-important papalo, tasting a bit like cilantro on steroids, at 
the corner bodegas.
  
Once you've got the basics, cemitas are open to interpretation. Most begin 
with a layer of white, salty shredded string cheese called quesilla, a whole 
chipotle pepper or pickled jalape?os and sliced avocado and onion. 
  
Next, they're stuffed with all manner of fillings, including spicy pork, 
steak, chicken or the traditional Milanesa - steak pounded paper-thin, breaded and 
fried until crispy. You'll also find them with potatoes, refried beans or 
lengua (cow's tongue) and patas (pickled pig's feet).
  
Those who've tried them find them unforgettable. "They are the food that I 
crave most constantly, and I always head to the market to get one as soon as I 
arrive in Puebla," says Marilyn Tausend, the author of many revered Mexican 
cookbooks and the head of Culinary Adventures, which leads food tours of Mexico. 
  
In Puebla, says Tausend, the cemitas are usually sold in markets; one in 
particular in Puebla has stall after stall of them, "with clusters of metal chairs 
and tables around so people can enjoy them at their leisure. I've been 
addicted ever since I had my first bite many, many years ago."
  
If you want to give cemitas a try, here's where to find them:
Del Valle Restaurant & Deli, 665 10th Ave. (between 46th and 47th Sts.), 
cemitas weekends only, (212) 262-5173 
La Flor Bakery, 40-21 Fifth Ave., Brooklyn (718) 633-1254
Los Compadres Deli and Bakery, 58-07 Fifth Ave., Brooklyn, no phone.
  
     Papalo: Soul of a sandwich
In addition to its round roll, a cemita is defined by the little-known herb 
papalo, which can be found in several Hispanic markets in town (including 
Juquilita Grocery, 4216 Fifth Ave., Brooklyn). Its name hails from the words papa 
lotl, or butterfly, from the Aztec dialect still spoken in Puebla. Grown in hot 
climates, the plant has round leaves, a pungent scent and a strong flavor. 
It's sometimes found in vases on tables in Mexico, so the leaves can be torn off 
and sprinkled on dishes before they're eaten. You can try it in salsas or 
guacamole, too.
  
The basic cemita
Serves 11 cemita roll, split horizontally and toasted (or substitute a 
high-quality, chewy, seeded hamburger roll) 
4-5 ?-inch slices of avocado, cut lengthwise
3-4 large papalo leaves (May substitute cilantro or epazote, but papalo is 
best.)
1 whole chipotle pepper in adobo 
Filling of your choice, such as spicy pork, steak, shredded chicken, 
pan-fried potatoes or refried beans
3-4 thin slices of white onion
3 ounces quesilla cheese, or another string cheese, shreddedBuild sandwiches 
by layering the avocado, papalo, chili pepper and filling, topping it with the 
onions and cheese. 

Originally published on June 15, 2004   

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
LIFE'S A BEACH
  
   For those whose summer etymologies just can't end with "tar beach," I 
re-checked this one.
 
(TRADEMARKS)
Word Mark   LIFE'S A BEACH  
Goods and Services  (CANCELLED) IC 025. US 039. G & S: Sportswear-Namely, 
Slacks, Shorts, T-Shirts, Shirts, Swimwear and Beach Coverups. FIRST USE: 
19840222. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19840222   
Mark Drawing Code   (1) TYPED DRAWING   
Serial Number   73484377    
Filing Date June 11, 1984   
Current Filing Basis    1A  
Original Filing Basis   1A  
Published for Opposition    February 26, 1985   
Registration Number 1334439 
Registration Date   May 7, 1985 
Owner   (REGISTRANT) Life's A Beach, Inc. CORPORATION ILLINOIS 132 S. Oak 
Park Ave. Oak Park ILLINOIS 60302   
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED 
Attorney of Record  Basil E. Demeur 
Type of Mark    TRADEMARK   
Register    PRINCIPAL   
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD    
Cancellation Date   February 19, 1992   
  
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Other 9 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 19, 1985. p. B10 (1 
page) 
(A name of a horse--ed.)
    
    2.  Display Ad 302 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 29, 1986. p. L_I_17 (1
 page) 
     
    3.  Beachy Keen
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Mar 15, 1987. p. 
SM19 (1 page)     
    
    
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
   Frederick Post   Thursday, November 21, 1985 Frederick, Maryland     
...WeAther Weii As You Know LIFE'S A BEACH (XmAs Hits) AND THEN YOU BUY 
Hurry..   
 
   Frederick Post   Saturday, November 23, 1985 Frederick, Maryland     
...WeAther Well As You Know LIFE'S A BEACH (XmAs Hits) AND THEN YOU BUY 
Hurry..   
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
PINA COLADA
  
   OED is nearing this entry, and I don't think that I posted this.  It's 
more than just "strained pineapple" here.  I provided the Cuban 1922 citation 
that MERRIAM-WEBSTER now uses.
   I re-checked for the LOS ANGELES TIMES, but there's nothing there yet.
  
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    AT THE BAR
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 16, 1950. p. XX3 (1 
page):
   Drinks in the West Indies range from Martinique's famous rum [unch to 
Cuba's _pina colada_ (rum, pineapple and coconut milk).  Key West has a variety of 
lime swizzles and punches, and Granadians use nutmeg in their rum drinks.  
Cubans and Puerto Ricans make a variety of tasty and exotic fruit beverages,  
These include _guanabana_ (soursop juice), _fruta bomba_ (papaya), watermelon 
juice, muskmelon juice and a drink of almond blended with banana juice.
  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
CONSUMER PROGRAMMING=INFOMERCIALS
  
   From "PRIME TIME" by Phil Mushnick, SUNDAY NEW YORK POST, TV WEEK, 20 June 
2004, pg. 12, col. 3:
  
   Those who study the cable TV industry begin to recognize that it has a 
language all its own, one that makes good sound bad and bad sound good.
(...)
(Col. 4.  "Vertical integration" and "overbuild" are discussed--ed.)
   Now there's a new phrase being thrown around--"Consumer programming."  
Sounds lovely, even helpful, but it's just a nice way of saying infomercials.   


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 22 19:48:45 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:48:45 -0400
Subject: "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins@US.ARMY.MIL>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.JUN.2004.154845.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL> wrote:

        >>>
As a new subscriber, I was looking through the archives.  From Thu, 25
May 2000:

> Do others have hard evidence for busk in the US?  More than just
> personal knowledge of the term (which can be misleading)?

>>From the magic/conjuring periodical _The New Phoenix_ #330 Oct 1955.

"Jardine Ellis was a sort of busking magician.  He would go to
some cafeteria in the afternoon and look for a likely prospect."

An electronic search also found "buskin":  "Frank Garcia back in the
magic fold again picking up the magic wand and doffing the buskin."
(_The Phoenix_ #253 18 April 1952)
        <<<

These are two different words. Busking is performing on the street or in
public, usually for whatever money passersby may give you. To doff the
buskin is to leave the stage; see the following from Oxford English
Dictionary Online:

2. spec. The high thick-soled boot (cothurnus) worn by the actors in ancient
Athenian tragedy; frequently contrasted with the ?sock? (soccus), or low
shoe worn by comedians.

1570 LEVINS Manip. 133 A Buskin, cothurnus. 1597 BP. HALL Sat. I. i. 19
Trumpet, and reeds, and socks, and buskins fine. 1663 BP. PATRICK Parab.
Pilgr. xxxiv. (1668) 262 The Play is ended, and the high-heel'd Buskins are
pull'd off. 1763 J. BROWN Poetry & Mus. vi. 119 The Buskin..hightened the
Stature. 1871 MORLEY Crit. Misc. (1886) I. 127 Doff the buskin or the sock,
wash away the paint from their cheeks, and gravely sit down to meat.

b. Hence fig. and transf. The style or spirit of this class of drama; the
tragic vein; tragedy. to put on the buskins: to assume a tragic style; to
write tragedy.


-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 23 00:57:28 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 20:57:28 -0400
Subject: (dis)agreement with "all politics is local"
Message-ID: <TUE.22.JUN.2004.205728.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

With yesterday's resignation in disgrace of our governor, John
Rowland, the lieutenant governor Jodi Rell will be sworn in soon as
the new governor of Connecticut.  In an interview on tonight's local
news Gov-to-be Rell was asked whether she thought the scandal would
hurt Connecticut Republicans in the upcoming election in November.
She said not to worry, she has always liked the point made by a
Democrat [unidentified, but I assume she had Tip O'Neill in mind],
"All politics is local".  She went on to say that while the grammar
was bad, she agreed with the sentiment--voters will decide on their
local state senate races and so on based on the individuals, etc.

For Rell, "politics" is evidently a collective plural, so that it
really *should* have been "All politics are local" instead.  Or is it
the "all" that she thinks makes it plural?  Would we say "All
linguistics are tricky"?  "All mathematics are hard"?  (Note that
it's not purely a formal question --while it is indeed possible to
have "all statistics are biased", that's a real count noun, the
singular "that statistic is biased" being impeccable as well.)

Checking google, I find that Gov-to-be Rell is far from alone.
Indeed, there are 3040 hits on "All politics are local" to 13000 for
"All politics is local", although presumably not everyone in the
former camp would share the view that the singular represents bad
grammar.  I just hadn't realized the plural here was as popular as it
appears to be.

Larry


From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM  Wed Jun 23 01:09:19 2004
From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 21:09:19 -0400
Subject: (dis)agreement with "all politics is local"
Message-ID: <TUE.22.JUN.2004.210919.0400.ABARAGONA@SPRYNET.COM>

>
> Checking google, I find that Gov-to-be Rell is far from alone.
> Indeed, there are 3040 hits on "All politics are local" to 13000 for
> "All politics is local", although presumably not everyone in the
> former camp would share the view that the singular represents bad
> grammar.  I just hadn't realized the plural here was as popular as it
> appears to be.

I remember back in the mid-1960's, former Pittsburgh Pirate Wilbur "Vinegar
Bend" Mizell was running for Congress in N.C. (his main qualifications
apparently being that he was a left handed pitcher and a right wing
Republican) and sent out a campaign brochure in which he said he'd been
warned by a friend that "politics are dirty business."  And he still won!

Alan B.


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Jun 23 03:49:35 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas Wilson)
Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 23:49:35 -0400
Subject: (dis)agreement with "all politics is local"
Message-ID: <TUE.22.JUN.2004.234935.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> For Rell, "politics" is evidently a collective plural, so that it
> really *should* have been "All politics are local" instead.  Or is it
> the "all" that she thinks makes it plural?  Would we say "All
> linguistics are tricky"?  "All mathematics are hard"?  (Note that
> it's not purely a formal question --while it is indeed possible to
> have "all statistics are biased", that's a real count noun, the
> singular "that statistic is biased" being impeccable as well.)

For most folks, I suppose things which look like plurals are treated as
plurals; e.g., "species" is transparently the plural of "specie" (as in
"endangered specie") which I suppose is by far the most frequent sense of
"specie" among the post-literati on the Web.

I suppose in principle it could be that "politics" is being treated as an
uncountable but grammatically plural item such as "wastes", "dregs",
"refinery bottoms", "mine tailings", etc. The company seems right. (^_^)

What about "polemics"? Or "histrionics"? Hmm, not so easy, at least for me.

-- Doug Wilson


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Jun 23 04:21:49 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:21:49 -0400
Subject: (dis)agreement with "all politics is local"
In-Reply-To: <1901.199.106.92.32.1087962575.squirrel@webmail.nb.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.002149.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"refinery bottoms", "mine tailings", etc. The company seems right. (^_^)
>
>What about "polemics"? Or "histrionics"? Hmm, not so easy, at least for me.
>
True, for me those pretty much have to be collective plurals.   So I
guess it's not the availability of a singular, but the reference.  In
fact, I think "polemics" or "histrionics" if taken to mean the study
(rather than the practice) of argumentation or the science of how to
act over the top (rather than instances of doing so) would be
singular too--"Histrionics is one of my hardest subjects in drama
school".

larry


From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU  Wed Jun 23 09:07:25 2004
From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 05:07:25 -0400
Subject: Parachute journalism, parachute militantism
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.050725.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm looking for the earliest uses of "parachute journalism" and its sister
phrases in both English and French. It means jumping into a situation in
which you have little experience and then speaking as if you know it all.
(Hm, sounds like grad school.) I imagine it was coined in one of the two
languages during a war. Could you help me out with your own lexicography or
point me to helpful research tools?

During my research on student-worker miscommunication in France in Mar
1968, I found that the workers used "parachutists" to refer to students,
Maoists and Trotskists who didn't understand the workers' history but told
them what to do. Farmers called such people "comets" because they came,
burned with enthusiasm and vanished--never to return. (See Kristin Ross,
_May 68 and Its Afterlives_, 2002, p. 112.)

As a journalism student, I became familiar with "parachute journalism," or
superficial reporting. War journalists who were sent from the home office
after the first shots were fired in a foreign country were compared to
journalists who had been at the foreign office for years before war broke
out. (See _Of the Press, by the Press, for the Press (and Others, Too)_,
Washington Post, 1974.)

Were the French workers in May 1968 borrowing a term made popular in a
specific war (conscious of its connotations) or was it already a cliche
with a forgotten history? Was the war recent, as in World War II or later?
Did it come from French, English or another language?

Thanks for your help,
Carolina
Journalism & French Studies master's candidate, NYU


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Wed Jun 23 11:45:52 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 07:45:52 -0400
Subject: (dis)agreement with "all politics is local"
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.074552.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Laurence Horn laurence.horn at YALE.EDU

<snip>

: For Rell, "politics" is evidently a collective plural, so that it
: really *should* have been "All politics are local" instead.  Or is it
: the "all" that she thinks makes it plural?  Would we say "All
: linguistics are tricky"?  "All mathematics are hard"?  (Note that
: it's not purely a formal question --while it is indeed possible to
: have "all statistics are biased", that's a real count noun, the
: singular "that statistic is biased" being impeccable as well.)

For me, the 'all' clearly plays a role. Consider, based entirely on personal
intuitions:

Politics is/*are local
Linguistics is/*are tricky
Mathematics is/*are hard

(I'm curious what British English intuitions are for 'Maths is/are hard',
though.)

Oddly, this pair:

Statistics *is/are biased
Statistics is/*are useful

So, apparently, there's a difference for me between different uses of a
single such term. Consider:

Politics is/are dirty

(Where whether you use the 'is' or 'are' depends on what you want 'politics'
to mean--the concept/process in general ('is') or political process*es*,
such as campaigning, lawmaking, &c.

Interestingly, i can't think of any sentences where i'd accept 'are' to go
along with bare 'linguistics' or 'mathematics' (or 'math', FTM). However,
upon adding 'all' to the mix:

All politics ?is/are local
All linguistics is/*are tricky
All mathematics is/?are hard
All statistics *is/are biased
All statistics is/are useful
All politics is/are dirty

Basically, you put 'all' in front of one of these, and except for
'linguistics' (which may be different due to excessive familiarity), 'are'
becomes at least marginally acceptable.

<snip>

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Jun 23 13:06:20 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:06:20 -0400
Subject: (dis)agreement with "all politics is local"
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.090620.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Doug Wilson writes:

>For most folks, I suppose things which look like plurals are treated as
>plurals; e.g., "species" is transparently the plural of "specie" (as in
>"endangered specie") which I suppose is by far the most frequent sense of
>"specie" among the post-literati on the Web.
~~~~~~~~~~
And then there is the "many kudos" garnered by so-&so.   "Kudos heaped"
could of course be read either way, but I usually sense that /kudos/
feels countable to the speaker.
A. Murie


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun 23 15:35:01 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:35:01 -0400
Subject: More re: Query: "book" = leave, run away
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.113501.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW I've always viewed this meaning of "book" as being derived from
BE  onomatopoetic baby-talk "bookity-bookity" (cf. literary
"buckety-buckety"), the sound of the hoofbeats of a running horse.

-Wilson Gray


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun 23 16:04:06 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:04:06 -0400
Subject: Boody
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.120406.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 >"My boody and my cookie and my titi hurt."


I don't know 'cookie' or 'titi' but in my boyhood 'boody'/'booty' was an
exact equivalent of 'ass': e.g., "I got a piece of boody", "I'll kick
your
boody", "Up your boody", etc., etc. -- that is, with the sense of
'vulva'/'sex' as well as that of 'buttocks'/'anus'. I always assumed
this
was a corruption of 'body'. It's still current, but I'm not sure of the
exact sense usually. The song says "Shake your boody", doesn't it? What
is
it -- precisely -- that one is being encouraged to shake?


The word appears in Chapman's dictionary and in Spears'. Perhaps it is
largely a 'black' word as Chapman indicates.


-- Doug Wilson


I learned both the word "boody" with almost all of the meanings
supplied above in 1942, when I was in the first grade, i.e. "ass, butt,
buttocks," etc. Since I was pre-adolescent, the sexual references meant
nothing. For example, there was the rhyme:

Wint downtown to see Miss Moody.
Paid two cint to see her boody.
Boody so black, couldn't see the crack.
Axed Miss Moody for my two cint back.

Although "crack" is ambiguous in this context, in the first grade, I
understood it to refer uniquely to Miss Moody's butt crack.

Note the implied self-hatred wrt skin color.

BTW, has anyone else heard "plumber('s) split" used for ass/butt crack?

-Wilson Gray


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun 23 18:03:25 2004
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:03:25 -0400
Subject: double a-prefixing?
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.140325.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from my files:

08/19/88

youngish Knoxville area native (as she was giving a pedicure) on the
telephone - to a child?:

"I'm a feet a-scrapin'."

Bethany


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Wed Jun 23 18:22:59 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:22:59 -0400
Subject: The second syllable of "little, cattle, subtle"
In-Reply-To: <200406210150.ANF12097@mirapointmr4.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.142259.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20040623/f314c6f3/attachment.htm>

From patty at CRUZIO.COM  Wed Jun 23 19:39:23 2004
From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 12:39:23 -0700
Subject: Boody
In-Reply-To: <F4165F8B-C52E-11D8-BA54-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.123923.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hello folks - I always thought it was 'booty' not 'boody'.  I can't recall
any of my friends pronouncing this with a 'd' sound - we are on the west
coast.  I also have never associated 'up your booty' with 'vulva'/'sex'
only with 'ass'.  I have never heard of "plumber('s) split" before.

Patty


At 09:04 AM 6/23/04, you wrote:
> >"My boody and my cookie and my titi hurt."
>
>
>I don't know 'cookie' or 'titi' but in my boyhood 'boody'/'booty' was an
>exact equivalent of 'ass': e.g., "I got a piece of boody", "I'll kick
>your
>boody", "Up your boody", etc., etc. -- that is, with the sense of
>'vulva'/'sex' as well as that of 'buttocks'/'anus'. I always assumed
>this
>was a corruption of 'body'. It's still current, but I'm not sure of the
>exact sense usually. The song says "Shake your boody", doesn't it? What
>is
>it -- precisely -- that one is being encouraged to shake?
>
>
>The word appears in Chapman's dictionary and in Spears'. Perhaps it is
>largely a 'black' word as Chapman indicates.
>
>
>-- Doug Wilson
>
>
>I learned both the word "boody" with almost all of the meanings
>supplied above in 1942, when I was in the first grade, i.e. "ass, butt,
>buttocks," etc. Since I was pre-adolescent, the sexual references meant
>nothing. For example, there was the rhyme:
>
>Wint downtown to see Miss Moody.
>Paid two cint to see her boody.
>Boody so black, couldn't see the crack.
>Axed Miss Moody for my two cint back.
>
>Although "crack" is ambiguous in this context, in the first grade, I
>understood it to refer uniquely to Miss Moody's butt crack.
>
>Note the implied self-hatred wrt skin color.
>
>BTW, has anyone else heard "plumber('s) split" used for ass/butt crack?
>
>-Wilson Gray


From millerk at NYTIMES.COM  Wed Jun 23 20:05:25 2004
From: millerk at NYTIMES.COM (Kathleen E. Miller)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:05:25 -0400
Subject: Tangent -- Re: Boody
In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20040623123522.02953eb0@mail.cruzio.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.160525.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Nextel is now running a commercial where the "late-night booty call" is now
a "late-night booty chirp."

Kathleen E. Miller

(And my new Eudora 6.1 just gave me a three-chili pepper warning that
sending this message might get my "keyboard washed out with soap" and told
me I need to "tone it down." I'm being censured by a computer program!!!)


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Jun 24 01:46:29 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:46:29 -0400
Subject: "Dry run" = "rehearsal" (1940)
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.214629.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From ProQuest:

----------

_New York Times_, 23 Nov. 1940: p. 7:

<<CAMP UPTON, L. I., Nov. 22 -- A combination dress and undress rehearsal
-- a "dry run," in Army parlance -- was staged by officers here today.>>

----------

Michael Quinion's latest mailing mentioned this expression.

-- Doug Wilson


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Jun 24 02:51:29 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:51:29 -0400
Subject: Boody
In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20040623123522.02953eb0@mail.cruzio.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.JUN.2004.225129.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:39 PM -0700 6/23/04, Patty Davies wrote:
>Hello folks - I always thought it was 'booty' not 'boody'.  I can't recall
>any of my friends pronouncing this with a 'd' sound - we are on the west
>coast.  I also have never associated 'up your booty' with 'vulva'/'sex'
>only with 'ass'.  I have never heard of "plumber('s) split" before.
>
>Patty
>
For what it's worth--for me, and I suspect many other speakers of
different regional varieties of AmEng, "boody" and "booty" (not to
mention "bootie") would be homonyms.  Are they really distinguished
(in non-careful speech) on the West Coast?  If so, do they involve
different degrees of voicing or flapping, or different vowels?  None
of those possibilities match my recollections of alveolars in this
position.  (Curiously, I don't seem to be able to come up with an
actual pair of -d-/-t- homonyms in this exact position, in the manner
of "ladder"/"latter", but perhaps "Rudy"/"Rootie" would work, for
those who remember Rootie Kazootie.)

Larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Jun 24 04:09:11 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:09:11 -0400
Subject: Boody
In-Reply-To: <p04320407bcfff07dd33f@[130.132.245.185]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.000911.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>For what it's worth--for me, and I suspect many other speakers of
>different regional varieties of AmEng, "boody" and "booty" (not to
>mention "bootie") would be homonyms.

At least near-homonyms. I'm ignorant of the fine points of the phonetics,
but I recall Larry Trask making an objection to wholesale assignment of /d/
to an Am.Eng. intervocalic "t" sound (IIRC proposed for OED and used in
MW3). I would say that in rapid speech without any contextual clues I would
be unable to distinguish "Adam" from "atom" as many US-ans pronounce them,
but in my dialect I believe that they are distinct at least sometimes; I
would not consider writing a poem rhyming "moody" with "cootie" or "atom"
with "madam". I believe in my careful speech this "d" sound is more
anterior (front) and longer than the "t"; maybe the distinction is not
always primarily one of voicedness or aspiration.

When I heard "boody"/"booty" in my youth, I had no doubt that it had /d/
and not /t/. Of course I never saw this in print (IIRC) until much later
(probably about 1990), and then I saw "booty". Had the /d/ sounded
ambiguous to me I'm sure I would have taken it to be "booty" when I first
heard it (a recognizable word in another sense). It is possible that a /t/
was replaced with a /d/ somewhere along the line, perhaps in a dialect
where they are homonyms.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 24 04:14:45 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:14:45 EDT
Subject: 88 bottles of beer on the wall (1966)
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.001445.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

_BROOKLYN BREWS_  Brooklyn bands and brews join together at the beer garden
of the Brooklyn Historical Society.  The Brooklyn Brewery sponsors the weekly
event, which this week features live music from the band Valeze.  The event
accompanies "100 Bottles of Beer on the Wall: Brewing in Brooklyn," which
examines the role of Brooklyn as an important center of beer production from 1870
until the 1970s.
--NEW YORK SUN, Calendar, 23 June 2004, pg. 15, col. 4.

   Seriously, what is the origin of that stupid song?  And will it make any
"song" entry in the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA ON FOOD AND DRINK IN AMERICA, right up
there with "Cheeseburger in Paradise" and "I'm Your Candy Man"?
   We've discussed the regional variations of "if one of those bottles should
happen to fall" against "take one down, pass it around."  This is generally
regarded as a summer camp song, but from where?


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
    1.  Let Front Seat Driver Suffer in Silence
By Erma Bombeck. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington,
D.C.: Nov 18, 1966. p. D8 (1 page):
   THINK OF THE beauty of being able to look in the rear view mirror and see
tear-streaked faces with mouths open, but no sound; Girl Scouts singing "88
bottles of beer on the wall," but no sounds;...

    2.  Brodhead High's Last Hurrah in Basketball
By GEORGE VECSEYSpecial to The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current
file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 19, 1972. p. S7 (1 page)

    3.  Old Oily Ollie
By WILLIAM COLE. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 19,
1972. p. BR8 (2 pages)

    4.  99 Cans of Beer on the Wall
Heidi Sinick. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington,
D.C.: Apr 15, 1973. p. PO16 (2 pages)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 Red Bluff Daily News   Friday, May 01, 1970 Red Bluff, California
...SUSAN FERGUSON "ONe hundred BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL ONe hundred
BOTTLES OF.....THE case, say that more than 100 BOTTLES OF hard liquor, 70 cases OF
BEER..

   Post Crescent    Sunday, December 28, 1969 Appleton, Wisconsin
...in THE back seat singing, BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL. I've wrestled
wilh.....temper tantrums in church and hysteria ON THE first day OF school I
wouldn't..

 Daily Times News   Monday, December 29, 1969 Burlington, North Carolina
...back seat singing, "1999 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL." I've wrestled
with.....100% human hair GET A HUGE 11x14 WALL PORTRAIT OF Your Child 38 ONLY
wigs..

 Valley Independent     Tuesday, July 13, 1971 Monessen, Pennsylvania
...Plates" and sing gaily "49 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL." Our children play
a.....a record OF THE last "Get Mama" game. THE kids argued for 75 miles ON
wheTHEr..

 News Journal   Thursday, July 29, 1971 Mansfield, Ohio
...Plates" and sing gaily "49 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL." Our children play
a.....OF THE flash (Jard technique. THE manufacturer OF THE "at home
teacher..

 Lima News  Tuesday, July 20, 1971 Lima, Ohio
...Plates" and sing gaily "49 BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL." Our children play
a.....a record OF THE last "Get Mama" game. THE kids argued for 75 miles ON
wheTHEr..


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Jun 24 04:39:36 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:39:36 -0400
Subject: T or D?
In-Reply-To: <p04320407bcfff07dd33f@[130.132.245.185]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.003936.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Recently I saw painted on the rear end of a large truck on the PA Turnpike:
"SEAN DICH SCHPEDAH".

I suppose this is more or less "Sehe[n] dich spaeter", a German literal
translation for "See you later" (I think). I don't know why the spelling
deformities, nor why the truck had this slogan.

Maybe this is another example of confusion between "t" and "d" in speech,
although in what dialect(s)/language(s)/context I'm not sure.

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Jun 24 05:20:01 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 01:20:01 EDT
Subject: "Different Strokes for Different Folks" (Cassius Clay, 1966)
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.012001.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I think this newspaper is a recent addition to the database.  We had
previously discussed citations from 1967.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
 Great Bend Daily Tribune   Friday, November 11, 1966 Great Bend, Kansas
...today with road DIFFERENT STROKES for DIFFERENT FOLKS." Clay, 24, A It's
paid.....Hutchinson. Garden City, Russell, AND Dodge City AND then only one..
Pg. 6, col. 8:
By Darrell Mack
United Press International
   HOUSTON (UPI)-- (...)
   But back to a la Bob Hope.  Clay, the comedian, said:
   --"I don't have any punch.  I just hit a man so many times he wished I had
a punch."
   --On knockout punches in the Liston, Floyd Patterson and Karl Mildenberger
fights:  "I bot (got?--ed.) different strokes for different folks."


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Jun 24 05:23:57 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 01:23:57 -0400
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
In-Reply-To: <p04320407bcfff07dd33f@[130.132.245.185]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.012357.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here in Pittsburgh, "ignorant" is a word meaning
"rude"/"impolite"/"ill-mannered". No, I don't mean in some borderline
sense, like "ignorant of civilized norms" [although I suppose something
like this was an ancestral/etymological sense] or "rude because of not
knowing any better", I mean pretty much exactly synonymous with "rude" (as
opposed to the usual "ignorant" = "not knowledgeable").

This is not ethnically restricted as far as I can tell, and it does not go
along with a condensed pronunciation like "iggernt" (which association is
suggested in DARE). It is used in careful speech by educated persons
without self-consciousness; it seems to be taken as a "normal, correct" word.

I don't find this sense of "ignorant" in the conventional English
dictionaries. I do find it in the Scots dictionaries.

Perhaps this is another word which is shared by Scotland and Pittsburgh ...
like "slippy" = "slippery" or "redd [up]" = "tidy [up]" or "rift" = "belch".

Is "ignorant" = "rude" widespread in the US? If so, maybe it should be in
the standard dictionaries.

I note that in some contexts it may be difficult to tell whether or not the
word has its conventional meaning of "lacking knowledge". For example in
"These ignorant people are always using bad language" one can't tell
exactly what "ignorant" is supposed to mean. But in Pittsburgh (unlike many
other places AFAIK) one might say (without irony or oxymoron) "He knows
just about everything, but I don't like to talk with him because he's so
ignorant."

Please excuse any undue ignorance on my part.

-- Doug Wilson


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Jun 24 06:12:39 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 02:12:39 -0400
Subject: 88 bottles of beer on the wall (1966)
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.021239.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

13 November 1956  _The News_ Newport(RI)  6/5-6

(Headline)Ten Mugs Of Beer On The Wall--That's Singing Bus Driver's Favorite

<<East Haven, Conn., claims its Michael Vendola is the only singing bus
driver in the world.  Mike leads his busload of kindergarteners in song five
days a week.
   Mike started the tuneful trips to school in 1953 when he noticed most of
his passengers were crying becauses they didn't want to go to school.  So he
cheered them up by singing and he has been at it ever since.
   And, oh, yes, one of the tots' favorite tunes, says MIke, is a song
called "Ten Mugs of Beer on the wall." >>

Sam Clements
----- Original Message -----
From: <Bapopik at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 12:14 AM
Subject: 88 bottles of beer on the wall (1966)


>
>    Seriously, what is the origin of that stupid song?  >    We've
discussed the regional variations of "if one of those bottles should
> happen to fall" against "take one down, pass it around."  This is
generally
> regarded as a summer camp song, but from where?
>
>
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>     1.  Let Front Seat Driver Suffer in Silence
> By Erma Bombeck. The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973).
Washington,
> D.C.: Nov 18, 1966. p. D8 (1 page):


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Jun 24 06:19:43 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 02:19:43 -0400
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.021943.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I can't believe I just missed this.  Oh well--

28 July 1955  _Nashua(IA) Reporter_  8/1

<<The ride is bumpy and the buses do not ease the jolts, but the kids don't
mind and engge themselves in joke telling, just conversation or singing.  A
favorite song with the boys seems to be "Ninety-nine bottles of beer on the
wall...."

Using newspaperarchive and "bottles of beer."

Sam Clements


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Jun 24 06:23:32 2004
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 02:23:32 -0400
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.022332.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And, I lied(I'm up too late).  I used "beer on the wall"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <SClements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 2:19 AM
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)


> I can't believe I just missed this.  Oh well--
>
> 28 July 1955  _Nashua(IA) Reporter_  8/1
>
> <<The ride is bumpy and the buses do not ease the jolts, but the kids
don't
> mind and engge themselves in joke telling, just conversation or singing.
A
> favorite song with the boys seems to be "Ninety-nine bottles of beer on
the
> wall...."
>
> Using newspaperarchive and "bottles of beer."
>
> Sam Clements
>


From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Thu Jun 24 09:18:06 2004
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 04:18:06 -0500
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
In-Reply-To: <200406240523.i5O5Nw101109@mx2.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.041806.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
> Here in Pittsburgh, "ignorant" is a word meaning
> "rude"/"impolite"/"ill-mannered". No, I don't mean in some borderline
> sense, like "ignorant of civilized norms" [although I suppose something
> like this was an ancestral/etymological sense] or "rude because of not
> knowing any better", I mean pretty much exactly synonymous with "rude" (as
> opposed to the usual "ignorant" = "not knowledgeable").
<snip>

I've heard it used with this meaning here in the St. Louis metro area; I
don't know whether the people using it were native to the area, but I
strongly suspect so. I haven't heard it often, though.

Jim Parish


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Thu Jun 24 12:54:08 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:54:08 -0400
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
In-Reply-To: <200406240523.ANJ49080@mirapointmr4.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.085408.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:23 AM 6/24/2004, you wrote:
>Is "ignorant" = "rude" widespread in the US? If so, maybe it should be in
>the standard dictionaries.

I've heard it in Carbondale, IL (not far from St. Louis) and, I think, in
Detroit.  I've always assumed it was an innovation, because nobody who used
it was over, maybe, 25.

Geoff


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Jun 24 13:20:10 2004
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 06:20:10 -0700
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
In-Reply-To: <40DA55FE.14137.1C67E691@localhost>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.062010.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have heard "ignorant" used for "rude" here in Utah
as long as I can remember.  Lots of descendants of
Scottish immigrants here, including me, but I can't
say this use of "ignorant" is or is not limited to
that group.


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Thu Jun 24 15:33:06 2004
From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 11:33:06 -0400
Subject: [Fwd: Chicago Tribune: At the end of the day,
 back in the day just means `past']
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.113306.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

hey folks, here's a little reportage on reportage.

Nathan Bierma just did an article on the term 'back in the day' for the
Chicago Trib.  He found me via a discussion on the term here at ADS-L,
from about 3.5 yrs ago, and cited me and Margaret Lee in the article.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi-0406240011jun24,1,4406693.story
is the article, and
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0102D&L=ads-l&P=R2999
is from the original ADS-L discussion

Best,
Drew


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Chicago Tribune: At the end of the day, back in the day just
means `past'
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:51:23 -0500
From: Nathan Bierma <nbierma at booksandculture.com>
To: <nunberg at csli.stanford.edu>, <johnmcw at socrates.berkeley.edu>,
<vand at calvin.edu>
CC: <mlee303 at yahoo.com>, <DrewDanielson at CMU.edu>,       <vanderklippe at gmail.com>

Here's what I came up with for 'back in the day':


--------------------
At the end of the day, back in the day just means `past'
--------------------

By Nathan Bierma
Special to the Tribune

June 24, 2004

CNN anchor Soledad O'Brien once owned a lavender Citroen, she recalled on
the air June 10.

"Wow! That was back in the day," her guest remarked.

"That was so back in the day it's not even funny," O'Brien replied. "I don't
want to talk about it anymore."

Which "day" we are talking about is not always clear, but there has been a
lot of going back to it lately.

This month, all in the same week -- June 14 -- Auto Week wrote that the new
Pontiac GTO "has standard features galore and build quality unheard of back
in the day." Fortune, in an article about airlines, observed, "Back in the
day, bad service was the trade-off for low prices [before higher quality
discount airlines emerged]." Newsweek said Slash, the former guitarist for
Guns N' Roses now strumming with the band Velvet Revolver, "looks exactly as
he did back in the day."

A Nexis search for "back in the day" returns more than 3,500 results for the
first five months of this year, compared with about 2,000 for the same
period in the year 2000 (although Nexis does not distinguish between "the
day" and "those days").

Quarter of a million results

The Google search engine yields more than a quarter of a million results for
"back in the day," five times as many as "back in those days" and 10 times
as many as "back in my day."

The origins of "back in the day" are obscure, but the consensus among
linguists and word watchers participating in The American Dialect Society's
e-mail discussions seems to be that "back in the day" arose from hip-hop
music circa the 1980s.

"I teach at Hampton [Va.] University, an historically black college," writes
linguist Margaret Lee in an interview by e-mail. "I remember my students
using `back in the day' as early as 1984 to refer to the relatively recent
past, but usually a time before they were born. Before that, I remember it
being used occasionally by hip-hop artists in TV interviews in the early
1980's."

"I don't know that it originated in African-American English or hip-hop
speech, but it has certainly gotten currency in those discourse
communities," says Drew Danielson, an administrative assistant at Carnegie
Mellon University in Pittsburgh in an interview by e-mail.

Hip-hop titles

Danielson cites hip-hop songs titled "Back In The Day" by Young MC and Ahmad
in the early 1990s. Recent albums by artists Erykah Badu and Missy Elliot
have tracks called "Back in the Day." Newsday wrote this month that the new
Beastie Boys album features "the same kind of East Coast beats that Run-DMC
and The Sugarhill Gang would have busted out back in the day."

A movie called "Back in the Day," starring rapper Ja Rule, is scheduled to
open later this year.

As the phrase is currently used, "back in the day" seems to have two basic
meanings: "long ago" and "was it really that long ago?"

For the first sense, consider O'Brien and her lavender Citroen. She was
really saying, "That was so long ago it's not even funny." Here, "the day"
serves a shortened form of "the days of my youth" or "the days when lavender
was in style."

"The day" can also mean "heyday," which the American Heritage Dictionary
defines as "the period of greatest popularity, success or power; prime."

Former Detroit Pistons player Rick Mahorn compared the crowds that cheered
his championship team in the late 1980s to those who followed this year's
victorious Pistons. "I remember the crowd being just as loud, just as vocal,
back in the day," he told the Detroit News in a June 15 story.

One quirk of context: when someone uses "back in the day," it's generally a
sign of pleasant nostalgia for days past. If you hear "back in my day," get
ready for a pronouncement on modern moral decline: "Back in my day, kids
respected their elders" carries an overtone very different from "kids
respected their elders back in the day."

Sometimes "the day" isn't really so long ago: "Compared to what it was like
to start your own Web page back in the day, starting a blog is a breeze,"
wrote the Macon [Ga.] Telegraph earlier this year in an article about the
fast-changing Internet.

Younger generations may be latching onto the catchphrase as a rite of
passage, says James Vanden Bosch, English professor at Calvin College in
Grand Rapids, Mich.

"I hear it only from twentysomethings," he says. "It strikes me that this is
early evidence of these youngsters' awareness that they, too, are growing
old, and suddenly their quite recent past -- 7 or 8 years ago -- constitutes
a significant period of time and development."

"It's a way," he adds, "of claiming to be old enough to have an interesting
past already."

----------

Send your comments on words to onlanguage at gmail.com

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/chi-0406240011jun24,1,30744
36.story

Copyright (c) 2004, Chicago Tribune


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Thu Jun 24 17:03:36 2004
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:03:36 -0400
Subject: T or D?
In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040624002930.02f2c240@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.130336.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sounds like a lame attempt to imitate PA German/"Dutch"--in PA, after all.

At 12:39 AM 6/24/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Recently I saw painted on the rear end of a large truck on the PA Turnpike:
>"SEAN DICH SCHPEDAH".
>
>I suppose this is more or less "Sehe[n] dich spaeter", a German literal
>translation for "See you later" (I think). I don't know why the spelling
>deformities, nor why the truck had this slogan.
>
>Maybe this is another example of confusion between "t" and "d" in speech,
>although in what dialect(s)/language(s)/context I'm not sure.
>
>-- Doug Wilson


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 24 19:14:08 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:14:08 -0400
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.151408.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

I don't know what any authorities say but I remember driving everyone within
earshot nuts by singing:

99 bottles of beer on the wall
99 bottles of beer
If one of those bottles should happen to fall
98 bottles of beer on the wall

etc, etc, etc.

Page "If I ever hear that song again I will kill the singer" Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Clements" <SClements at NEO.RR.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 2:23 AM
Subject: Re: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Sam Clements <SClements at NEO.RR.COM>
> Subject:      Re: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> And, I lied(I'm up too late).  I used "beer on the wall"
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sam Clements" <SClements at NEO.RR.COM>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 2:19 AM
> Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
>
>
> > I can't believe I just missed this.  Oh well--
> >
> > 28 July 1955  _Nashua(IA) Reporter_  8/1
> >
> > <<The ride is bumpy and the buses do not ease the jolts, but the kids
> don't
> > mind and engge themselves in joke telling, just conversation or singing.
> A
> > favorite song with the boys seems to be "Ninety-nine bottles of beer on
> the
> > wall...."
> >
> > Using newspaperarchive and "bottles of beer."
> >
> > Sam Clements
> >


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Jun 24 19:20:54 2004
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 12:20:54 -0700
Subject: Boody
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.122054.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Me too, as far as spelling goes, but they would be pronounced the same.  After all, KC and the Sunshine Band would "Shake your Booty." Never occured to me that it had a 'd'.
Fritz, another West Coaster.

>>> patty at CRUZIO.COM 06/23/04 12:39PM >>>
Hello folks - I always thought it was 'booty' not 'boody'.  I can't recall
any of my friends pronouncing this with a 'd' sound - we are on the west
coast.  I also have never associated 'up your booty' with 'vulva'/'sex'
only with 'ass'.  I have never heard of "plumber('s) split" before.

Patty


At 09:04 AM 6/23/04, you wrote:
> >"My boody and my cookie and my titi hurt."
>
>
>I don't know 'cookie' or 'titi' but in my boyhood 'boody'/'booty' was an
>exact equivalent of 'ass': e.g., "I got a piece of boody", "I'll kick
>your
>boody", "Up your boody", etc., etc. -- that is, with the sense of
>'vulva'/'sex' as well as that of 'buttocks'/'anus'. I always assumed
>this
>was a corruption of 'body'. It's still current, but I'm not sure of the
>exact sense usually. The song says "Shake your boody", doesn't it? What
>is
>it -- precisely -- that one is being encouraged to shake?
>
>
>The word appears in Chapman's dictionary and in Spears'. Perhaps it is
>largely a 'black' word as Chapman indicates.
>
>
>-- Doug Wilson
>
>
>I learned both the word "boody" with almost all of the meanings
>supplied above in 1942, when I was in the first grade, i.e. "ass, butt,
>buttocks," etc. Since I was pre-adolescent, the sexual references meant
>nothing. For example, there was the rhyme:
>
>Wint downtown to see Miss Moody.
>Paid two cint to see her boody.
>Boody so black, couldn't see the crack.
>Axed Miss Moody for my two cint back.
>
>Although "crack" is ambiguous in this context, in the first grade, I
>understood it to refer uniquely to Miss Moody's butt crack.
>
>Note the implied self-hatred wrt skin color.
>
>BTW, has anyone else heard "plumber('s) split" used for ass/butt crack?
>
>-Wilson Gray


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 24 20:01:17 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:01:17 -0700
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
In-Reply-To: <200406241215.1bDzGC1Wr3NZFjV0@sparrow>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.130117.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One of my favorite definitions, when I asked someone about recursive
music, was:

99 bottles of beer on the wall
99 bottles of beer
Take one down, put it back up
99 bottles of beer on the wall

Rima


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 24 20:21:44 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:21:44 -0400
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.162144.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

Then, of course, there is:

Take one down and pass it around
98 bottle of beer on the wall.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kim & Rima McKinzey" <rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET>
> Subject:      Re: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> One of my favorite definitions, when I asked someone about recursive
> music, was:
>
> 99 bottles of beer on the wall
> 99 bottles of beer
> Take one down, put it back up
> 99 bottles of beer on the wall
>
> Rima


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Jun 24 20:29:54 2004
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 16:29:54 -0400
Subject: double a-prefixing?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0406231402010.11898@moe.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.162954.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is fascinating.  I assume "feet-a-scrapin'" would be construed as a
chunked progressive verb after the first a-prefix (which would also have a
hyphen)?

At 02:03 PM 6/23/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>from my files:
>
>08/19/88
>
>youngish Knoxville area native (as she was giving a pedicure) on the
>telephone - to a child?:
>
>"I'm a feet a-scrapin'."
>
>Bethany


From kebara at COMCAST.NET  Thu Jun 24 21:15:44 2004
From: kebara at COMCAST.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:15:44 -0700
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.141544.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Rima and all:

The version I remember was:

99 bottles of beer on the shelf
99 bottles of beer.
Take one down and pass it around
98 bottles of beer.(etc).

Anne G

>
> One of my favorite definitions, when I asked someone about recursive
> music, was:
>
> 99 bottles of beer on the wall
> 99 bottles of beer
> Take one down, put it back up
> 99 bottles of beer on the wall
>
> Rima


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Thu Jun 24 21:28:12 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:28:12 -0400
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.172812.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

Rude as a word has its origins as do so many words which are invidious, ie.
pagan, clown, villain, lout, bumpkin etc. in the distinction between town
and country.

I hate to suggest that this is a cultural universal but it is as close to
one as any I know.

Those who live in cities are civilized. Those who live outside them are rude
bumpkins, pagans, etc.

When I was growing up in southern Illinois back in the middle ages those of
us who lived in our small town used to use the word "farmer" in order to put
down those who lived on farms as per "He/she is only a fucking farmer."

Of course when we went on to college where we were the bumpkins the epithets
were passed on to us.

If anyone out there is able to discover even one single term of approbation
which is derived from a term which originally meant someone who worked a
farm -- estate owners excepted -- I would love to know about it.

Page Stephens


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 1:23 AM
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
> Subject:      "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> Here in Pittsburgh, "ignorant" is a word meaning
> "rude"/"impolite"/"ill-mannered". No, I don't mean in some borderline
> sense, like "ignorant of civilized norms" [although I suppose something
> like this was an ancestral/etymological sense] or "rude because of not
> knowing any better", I mean pretty much exactly synonymous with "rude" (as
> opposed to the usual "ignorant" = "not knowledgeable").
>
> This is not ethnically restricted as far as I can tell, and it does not go
> along with a condensed pronunciation like "iggernt" (which association is
> suggested in DARE). It is used in careful speech by educated persons
> without self-consciousness; it seems to be taken as a "normal, correct"
word.
>
> I don't find this sense of "ignorant" in the conventional English
> dictionaries. I do find it in the Scots dictionaries.
>
> Perhaps this is another word which is shared by Scotland and Pittsburgh
...
> like "slippy" = "slippery" or "redd [up]" = "tidy [up]" or "rift" =
"belch".
>
> Is "ignorant" = "rude" widespread in the US? If so, maybe it should be in
> the standard dictionaries.
>
> I note that in some contexts it may be difficult to tell whether or not
the
> word has its conventional meaning of "lacking knowledge". For example in
> "These ignorant people are always using bad language" one can't tell
> exactly what "ignorant" is supposed to mean. But in Pittsburgh (unlike
many
> other places AFAIK) one might say (without irony or oxymoron) "He knows
> just about everything, but I don't like to talk with him because he's so
> ignorant."
>
> Please excuse any undue ignorance on my part.
>
> -- Doug Wilson


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Thu Jun 24 22:16:02 2004
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:16:02 -0500
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
In-Reply-To: <054201c45a30$69e8efe0$d6251318@kebara1jab3pmh>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.171602.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That's the version I grew up with, but I have also heard the third line as

If one of those bottle should happen to fall

Barbara

>Rima and all:
>
>The version I remember was:
>
>99 bottles of beer on the shelf
>99 bottles of beer.
>Take one down and pass it around
>98 bottles of beer.(etc).
>
>Anne G
>
>>
>>  One of my favorite definitions, when I asked someone about recursive
>>  music, was:
>>
>>  99 bottles of beer on the wall
>>  99 bottles of beer
>>  Take one down, put it back up
>>  99 bottles of beer on the wall
>>
>>  Rima


From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU  Thu Jun 24 22:16:54 2004
From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:16:54 -0400
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
In-Reply-To: <36a8i8$2k493a@ironman.mail.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.181654.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about salt of the earth?

I grew up in Houston, Texas, not long ago. The country types were Kickers.
They had their own brand of cool, which included silver belt buckles and
the ability to line dance for hours in big ol' boots.

btw, I lived 23 years in Texas and had friends from all parts of the state.
Nobody used ignorant to mean rude. Ignorant sometimes meant stupid. This
use always annoyed me. Had I studied linguistics before college, I might
have been less rigid about "proper" usage.
*************************************************************
"Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children,
practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."
--Rev. Pat Robertson


From kebara at COMCAST.NET  Thu Jun 24 22:42:57 2004
From: kebara at COMCAST.NET (Anne Gilbert)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:42:57 -0700
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.154257.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barbara:

> That's the version I grew up with, but I have also heard the third line as
>
> If one of those bottle should happen to fall

Hmmmmmm. . . . I never heard that version when I was growing up.  There must
be regional variations of one kind or another.
Anne G


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 25 01:57:04 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 21:57:04 -0400
Subject: "Uptown" v. "downtown" w/meaning: "main shopping district"
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.215704.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In Marshall, Texas, my birthplace, the county courthouse stands on the
highest point in town, facing the main shopping district, which is
referred to as "uptown" by the locals. Everyplace else that I've ever
lived - various places in Missouri, California, Illinois, &
Massachusetts, the main shopping district is referred to as "downtown."
So, wrt Marshall, it's obvious that downtown is referred to as "uptown"
because it quite literally is _up_town, as any fool can plainly see.
However, an article in the NYT Travel section noted that, in
Charleston, SC, too, downtown is referred to locally as "uptown," but
provided no further information. Does anyone know how the Charleston
usage came to be?

-Wilson Gray


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Jun 25 02:29:20 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 22:29:20 -0400
Subject: "Uptown" v. "downtown" w/meaning: "main shopping district"
In-Reply-To: <F508E342-C64A-11D8-A8C8-000A95E82154@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.JUN.2004.222920.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In Marshall, Texas, my birthplace, the county courthouse stands on the
>highest point in town, facing the main shopping district, which is
>referred to as "uptown" by the locals. Everyplace else that I've ever
>lived - various places in Missouri, California, Illinois, &
>Massachusetts, the main shopping district is referred to as "downtown."
>So, wrt Marshall, it's obvious that downtown is referred to as "uptown"
>because it quite literally is _up_town, as any fool can plainly see.
>However, an article in the NYT Travel section noted that, in
>Charleston, SC, too, downtown is referred to locally as "uptown," but
>provided no further information. Does anyone know how the Charleston
>usage came to be?
>
>-Wilson Gray
~~~~~~~~~
There was some discussion of these expressions on this list several years
ago.  You might consult the archives.  I do remember that "uptown" was
found in quite a few places, and that it didn't necessarily relate to
topography.
A. Murie


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Jun 25 05:18:58 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 01:18:58 -0400
Subject: "Dry run" etymology (speculative)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.011858.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Michael Quinion mentioned "dry run" = "rehearsal" recently.

I believe the phrase probably is unrelated to "dry run" = "dry creek". I
also doubt any relationship to dry humping or dry heaves.

The phrase dates from 1940 as a military term, but I believe the origin was
probably related to fire companies.

"Run" or "fire run" refers to the fire company's response to a fire.

There were also simulated fire fighting exercises, also called "runs",
often done as holiday entertainments, and also competition "runs" between
fire companies. Presumably there were also private practice runs.

In the nomenclature of the competition runs, "wet run" meant "run with
water [passed through the hose]", "dry run" meant "run without water" (the
men went through various evolutions, connecting hose, etc.). No surprise.

I speculate that the same terms ("wet run", "dry run") were also used in
fire company jargon outside the competition context.

Here are examples:

----------

"RUN"

----------

_Stevens Point Daily Journal_ (Stevens Point WI), 3 July 1931: p. 1, col. 3:

<<MORNING FIRE RUN / Both fire companies made a run to the Otto Giese home
... this morning.>>

[This one was a real fire run, not an exhibition or competition run.]

----------

_Sheboygan Press_ (Sheboygan WI), 9 Aug. 1921: p. 1, col. 6:

<<Fire Run Tonight / Promptly at 7:15 this evening the Sheboygan Fire
Department will stage a fire run on N. Eighth street.>>

----------

_Fort Wayne News_ (Fort Wayne IN), 24 June 1914: p. 7(?), col. 1:

<<VOLUNTEER FIREMEN GO TO MEETING THURSDAY / .... / 2:30 p.m. -- Exhibition
run and hose laying contest between Decatur and Bluffton motor trucks.>>

----------

_Stevens Point Daily Journal_ (Stevens Point WI), 20 May 1893: p. 5(?), col. 6:

<<Hose Company No. 1, was out for practice Thursday evening and to try the
new team the city authorities contemplate purchasing. The horses worked
well and the company made a creditable exhibition run from their Engine
House, to a hydrant near M. Wadleigh's residence on Main street.>>

----------

"WET RUN"

----------

_Salem Daily News_ (Salem OH), 6 July 1896: p. 5, col. 2:

<<Wet Run. / The wet run was made by the Fulton hook and ladder company and
the Deluge hose company. The run was made east in Main street to Fawcett's
store where the ladders were raised to the top of the building. The hose
company attached hose to a fire plug and ascending the ladder gave a fine
exhibition.>>

----------

_Morning Oregonian_ (Portland OR), 11 Sep. 1886: p. 4, col. 1:

<<THE FIREMEN. / .... / TO-DAY'S CONTESTS. / State Association Champion
Hose Race -- Open to all; wet run; distance, 200 yards to hydrant; lay 350
feet of hose; ....; attach pipe and throw water.>>

----------

"DRY RUN"

----------

_News_ (Frederick MD), 29 May 1901: p. 3(?), col. 4:

<<FIREMEN'S CONTESTS. / .... / Hose Race. / Not less than fifteen or more
than seventeen men to each company. Dry run, standing start, each team to
be allowed one trial; cart to carry 250 feet of hose, in 50-foot lengths;
distance, 200 yards to hydrant, attach and lay one line of hose 150 feet
from hydrant, break coupling and put on pipe, ... ready for water.>>

----------

_New York Times_, 14 Aug. 1893: p. 1:

<<READY FOR THE FIREMEN / .... / For the dry run, standing start, one trial
will be allowed.>>

----------

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 25 06:33:40 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 02:33:40 EDT
Subject: Crockumentary, Mockumentary, Rockumentary, Shockumentary
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.023340.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CROCKUMENTARY--516 Google hits, 102 Google Groups hits
COCKUMENTARY--348 Google hits, 21 Google Groups hits
ROCKUMENTARY--15,700 Google hits, 5,320 Google Groups hits
SHOCKUMENTARY--5,330 Google hits, 601 Google Groups hits
MOCKUMENTARY--42,900 Google hits, 4,120 Google Groups hits
MOCUMENTARY--9,170 Google hits, 310 Google Groups hits
JOCKUMENTARY--40 Google hits, 8 Google Groups hits
BOCKUMENTARY--4 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
DOCUMENTARY--6,890,000 Google hits, 558,000 Google Groups hits
    
   Michael Moore's film FAHRENHEIT 9/11 has opened nationally this week.  
Some call the film a "documentary," and some have called it a "crockumentary."  
Personally, I agree with Christopher Hitchens' review in SLATE:
  
http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/
  
   "Mockumentary" and "rockumentary" both became popular with THIS IS SPINAL 
TAP (1987), and the other forms soon followed.
   
  
(GOOGLE GROUPS) (recent hits)
Re: The Desperate Censors - Republicans Behind Attack on ... 
... Postwar documentarians gave us the documentary, Rob Reiner gave us the
mockumentary, and Moore initiated a third genre, the crockumentary. ... 
alt.fan.rush-limbaugh - Jun 16, 2004 by Jim Alder - View Thread (38 articles)
  
Re: Moore gets a dose of his own
... documentary; Rob Reiner invented the "mockumentary" with "This is Spinal 
Tap;" and
Michael Moore has now invented the "crockumentary." Actually, "jocularmentary 
... 
mn.general - Jun 5, 2004 by S. Smith - View Thread (65 articles)


(GOOGLE GROUPS) ("crockumentary")
Re: Random Thoughts on "The Documentary"
... Jim, who finally got his "conversation" episode I thought of you as it
was on. CB She was in France but she was also in his crockumentary. ... 
alt.tv.homicide - Jan 9, 1997 by Dave Locke - View Thread (4 articles)
  
Re: African banjo'ish instrument recordings.
... Yeah, I know, but it is an imperfect world. Maybe one of you will come up 
with enough
money to make a big crockumentary about all the banjo types. Joe Wilson 
rec.music.country.old-time - Oct 18, 1996 by Oldtime1 - View Thread (2 
articles)
  
Re: NBC's Prophecy TV Sweeps? Program!
... their own name... I think somebody got tired of the Usenet, and has
begun submitting crockumentary manuscripts to the networks. Jay 
alt.paranet.ufo - Feb 28, 1996 by jb1 at tiac.net - View Thread (2 articles)
  
  
(GOOGLE) ("cockumentary")
Beck's Incredible Film Festival: Plaster Caster
... ROCKSTAR'S PENISES! PLASTER CASTER is so unique a documentary; it
stands alone in its own genre; the 'cockumentary'. An intimate ... 
www.becksincrediblefilmfest.co.nz/m_plastercaster.html - 16k - Cached - 
Similar pages 
   
(GOOGLE GROUPS) ("cockumentary")
Re: PUMPING IRENE
PUMPING IRENE - the classic cockumentary that put the spot of jism on the 
wall
and launched the career of ARNOLD SCHWARZENSCHLONGER into megastardom. ... 
misc.fitness.weights - Jan 31, 1997 by contico at aol.com - View Thread (4 
articles)
  
  
(GOOGLE) ("bockumentary")
American Beer (2004)... Genre: Documentary Tagline: A Bockumentary Plot 
Outline: In June of 2002, five friends left New York City by minivan and set out 
across the United States to ... 
www.imdb.com/title/tt0372140/ - 35k - Cached - Similar pages    


(GOOGLE) ("jockumentary")
MED Magazine... Courtney Love. The term jockumentary is sometimes used to 
refer to a documentary about sports or a sportsperson. Modern jockumentaries ... 
www.macmillandictionary.com/MED-Magazine/ 
april2004/18-New-Word-Mockumentary.htm - 17k - Cached - Similar pages   
  
  
(GOOGLE) ("shockumentary")
The Word Spy - shockumentarySearch Word Spy: A Web site by Paul McFedries. 
shockumentary noun. A reality-based television show that contains footage of 
accidents and violence. ... 
www.wordspy.com/words/shockumentary.asp - 30k - Cached - Similar pages  
  
 
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("crockumentary")
No hits.
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("rockumentary")
 Frederick Post     Friday, October 27, 1989 Frederick, Maryland    
...to get. Showtime cable will air a ROCKUMENTARY focusing on Paul 
McCartney..
    
 Frederick Post     Monday, October 18, 1971 Frederick, Maryland    
...and production. The 50hour marathon "ROCKUMENTARY" was created and 
produced..
    
 Frederick Post     Wednesday, October 20, 1971 Frederick, Maryland     
...it all happen. Rock's most claimed ROCKUMENTARY. "Solid Gold Rock From 
Now..
    
 News Post Leader   Wednesday, September 24, 1986 Frederick, Maryland   
...the movie, but say there will be no "ROCKUMENTARY" footage of the 
singer's..   
    
 
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("mockumentary")
 News   Saturday, February 07, 1987 Frederick, Maryland     
...jams with the Temptations in this 'MOCKUMENTARY' at the LA Palace 
Theatre..
    
 Frederick Post     Friday, February 27, 1987 Frederick, Maryland   
...jams with the Temptations in this 'MOCKUMENTARY' at the LA Palace 
Theatre..
    
 Frederick Post     Monday, November 24, 1986 Frederick, Maryland   
...Willis' nickname in high school. The "MOCKUMENTARY" will follow 
fictional..
    
 Frederick Post     Saturday, February 07, 1987 Frederick, Maryland     
...jams with the Temptations in this 'MOCKUMENTARY' at the LA Palace 
Theatre.....jams with the Temptations in this 'MOCKUMENTARY' at the LA Palace 
Theatre..
    
 Frederick Post     Saturday, February 14, 1987 Frederick, Maryland     
...jams with the Temptations in this 'MOCKUMENTARY' at the LA Palace 
Theatre..
    
 Frederick Post     Friday, February 13, 1987 Frederick, Maryland   
...jams with the Temptations in this 'MOCKUMENTARY' at the LA Palace 
Theatre..
    
   Gettysburg Times     Monday, November 24, 1986 Gettysburg, Pennsylvania  
...Willis' nickname in high school. The "MOCKUMENTARY" will Jollow 
fictional..    
    
     
 
(OED)
mockumentary, _n._
    A film, television programme, etc., which adopts the form of a serious 
documentary in order to satirize its subject. 
  1965 G. GOULD Let. 31 Aug. in Sel. Lett. (1992) 79 The CBC had just asked 
me to write for them a mockumentary for radioa sort of Arctic ?Under Milkwood?
. 1987 Washington Post (Nexis) 4 Jan. W30 Hollywood has also spoofed metal in 
Rob Reiner's ?This is Spinal Tap?, a hilarious mockumentary. 1998 Village 
Voice (N.Y.) 17 Nov. 138/1 Hard Core Logo..is a mockumentary peculiarly devoid of 
mockery; it's hard..to recall a film so seriously fawning before so 
featherweight a subject.

        
 
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("crockumentary")
No hits.
   
 
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("rockumentary")
    1.  Display Ad 78 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 4, 1969. p. 94 (1 
page) 
(I didn't see "rockumentary"--ed.)
      
    2.  Entertainment Events
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 4, 1972. p. 29 (1 
page) 
     
    3.  Stage : 'Rockumentary' About Manson; ' 22 Years' Deals With Coast 
Murderer Society Deserves What It Creates Is Theme 
By MEL GUSSOW. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan 5, 
1972. p. 45 (1 page)     


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Jun 25 11:47:55 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 07:47:55 -0400
Subject: Boody
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.074755.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
:somebody else wrote:

:: For what it's worth--for me, and I suspect many other speakers of
:: different regional varieties of AmEng, "boody" and "booty" (not to
:: mention "bootie") would be homonyms.

: At least near-homonyms. I'm ignorant of the fine points of the
: phonetics, but I recall Larry Trask making an objection to wholesale
: assignment of /d/ to an Am.Eng. intervocalic "t" sound (IIRC proposed
: for OED and used in MW3)...

And i agree with Larry Trask on this one, if for no other reason that
there's often a difference in the preceding vowel--note the classic example
of the short-a length distinction in many (most?) American English speakers'
pronunciations of 'ladder' and 'latter'.

For me, the word in the subject line is clearly 'booty' rather than 'boody'
*not* because of the quality of the consonant, but because of the quality of
the vowel preceding it (length, certainly, but something in my ear wants to
say there's a slight difference in the degree of rounding, as well, though i
may just be making that up from too much introspection).

<snip>

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Jun 25 11:54:32 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 07:54:32 -0400
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.075432.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    James Smith <jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM>

: I have heard "ignorant" used for "rude" here in Utah
: as long as I can remember.  Lots of descendants of
: Scottish immigrants here, including me, but I can't
: say this use of "ignorant" is or is not limited to
: that group.

In fact, in Utah (at least along the Wasatch Front), 'ignorant' may have as
its *primary* definition 'rude'.

As someone else noted, 'rude' underwent a similar shift (from 'unlearned'
to, well, 'rude') a while back, and 'villian' went through a different but
reasonably similar shift, as well. Makes me wonder if there's a pattern
there, where a word meaning a lack of book smarts is more likely than the
average word to turn into a word meaning a lack of social smarts.

Incidentally, not this definition, but the word 'ignorant' was also involved
in one of my favorite linguistic cartoons--an editorial cartoon in the Salt
Lake _Tribune_ (IIRC--it may have been a different Wasatch Front paper) that
had a sign painter with a shirt labeled "English-only movement" walking away
from a freshly painted billboard reading "Dont't be ignernt!"

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Jun 25 11:57:23 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 07:57:23 -0400
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.075723.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Anne Gilbert <kebara at COMCAST.NET>
: Barbara wrote:

:: That's the version I grew up with, but I have also heard the third
:: line as

:: If one of those bottle should happen to fall

: Hmmmmmm. . . . I never heard that version when I was growing up.
: There must be regional variations of one kind or another.

FWIW, i grew up with both "take one down and pass it around" *and* "if one
of those bottles should happen to fall". The second one was the one you'd
use around adults who didn't approve of kids singing about drinking.

And then, of course, there's the version sung by Hammy's family in the Tiny
Toons movie "How i spent my vacation": "99 bottles of non-alcoholic beverage
on the wall".

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 25 13:04:46 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:04:46 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in WashPost
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.090446.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Followers of vulgarity may be interested to see that today's
Washington Post includes the word "fuck" printed in full,
with no dashes or asterisks, on page A4. The article concerns
our Vice President's use of the term in the Senate:

 Cheney Dismisses Critic With Obscenity
 Clash With Leahy About Halliburton

 [...]

 "Fuck yourself," said the man who is a heartbeat from the presidency.

 [...]

 As it happens, the exchange occurred on the same day the
 Senate passed legislation described as the "Defense of Decency
 Act" by 99 to 1.

 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3699-2004Jun24.html


Jesse Sheidlower


From andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU  Fri Jun 25 13:25:07 2004
From: andrew.danielson at CMU.EDU (Drew Danielson)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:25:07 -0400
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.092507.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Other words that share a similar dual meaning with 'ignorant' include

vulgar
base
coarse
crude

each of these words have additional meanings of course, but they all can
be used to mean 'lacking in knowledge' or to mean 'rude'.

As a matter of fact, 'rude' can mean 'lacking in knowledge' in the sense
of 'exhibiting a mark?d lack of skills' or 'in a natural, raw state'.

Just some observations, anything that may be construed as analysis is
unintentional and without guarantee.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Jun 25 13:45:37 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 06:45:37 -0700
Subject: "fuck" in WashPost
In-Reply-To: <20040625130446.GA28371@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.064537.0700.>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Jesse Sheidlower
> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 6:05 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: "fuck" in WashPost
>
>
> Followers of vulgarity may be interested to see that today's
> Washington Post includes the word "fuck" printed in full,
> with no dashes or asterisks, on page A4. The article concerns
> our Vice President's use of the term in the Senate:

Note that the article also uses "F-word," reserving "fuck" for the direct
quote.

A similar editorial policy regarding "fuck" is Daily Variety's. They use
"F-word" except in direct quotes when they print the unexpurgated word.

"The bureau decided that U2 front man Bono's use of the F-word on the Golden
Globes last year was not indecent, so NBC stations that aired it were not
forced to pay any fines.

"'This is really, really fucking brilliant,' Bono exclaimed after receiving
an award."

(Daily Variety, 15 January 2004, p. 8.)

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From Ittaob at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 25 13:44:43 2004
From: Ittaob at AOL.COM (Steve Boatti)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:44:43 EDT
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Ignorant"=20=3D=20"rude"?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20a=20Scotticism=3F?=
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.094443.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The use of "ignorant" to mean "rude" is not limited to English. The Webster's
New World Italian-English Dictionary (originally published by Collins in the
UK) lists "boor" as one meaning of Italian "ignorante." This corresponds to an
earlier poster's theory that the meaning of many similar English words arose
out of invidious rural/urban distinctions.

Steve Boatti
sjb72 at columbia.edu


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 25 14:21:05 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:21:05 -0400
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:______Re:_=A0_=A0_=A0_=22Ignorant=22_=3D_=22rude=22_a_S?=
 =?iso-8859-1?Q?cotticism=3F?=
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.102105.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

Boor, bauer, Boer, etc.

Peasant or farmer.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Boatti" <Ittaob at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 9:44 AM
Subject: Re:       "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Steve Boatti <Ittaob at AOL.COM>
> Subject:
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20"Ignorant"=20=3D=20"rude"?
>               = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=20a=20Scotticism=3F?=
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> The use of "ignorant" to mean "rude" is not limited to English. The
Webster's
> New World Italian-English Dictionary (originally published by Collins in
the
> UK) lists "boor" as one meaning of Italian "ignorante." This corresponds
to an
> earlier poster's theory that the meaning of many similar English words
arose
> out of invidious rural/urban distinctions.
>
> Steve Boatti
> sjb72 at columbia.edu


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun 25 14:31:23 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:31:23 -0400
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
In-Reply-To: <20040625040046.2A133228C8@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.103123.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I came up with this mathematician's version:

Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall,
Aleph-null bottles of beer,
Take one down, pass it around,
Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall.

Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall,
Aleph-null bottles of beer,
Take aleph-null down, pass them around,
Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall.

Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall,
Aleph-null bottles of beer,
Take aleph-null bottles down aleph-null times,
Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall.

(Aleph-null is the smallest infinite number. How many integers are there?
Aleph-null. If you're counting things and there is an infinite number of
them, how many are there? Aleph-null.)

-- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname
   http://mark.cracksandshards.com/filk.html
   Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring!
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Jun 25 14:54:42 2004
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:54:42 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.105442.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

P.S.  When I first sent this message, I got a line saying the "word" might
"get my keyboard washed out with soap."  Where does this come from?!?

-----------------
And had the Senate tied on the Defense of Decency Act, our Veep/Senate Prez
most certainly would have voted for it!

FWIW, _The Nation_ has been printing "fuck" in full for some time
now.  Know of any others?

At 09:04 AM 6/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Followers of vulgarity may be interested to see that today's
>Washington Post includes the word "fuck" printed in full,
>with no dashes or asterisks, on page A4. The article concerns
>our Vice President's use of the term in the Senate:
>
>  Cheney Dismisses Critic With Obscenity
>  Clash With Leahy About Halliburton
>
>  [...]
>
>  "Fuck yourself," said the man who is a heartbeat from the presidency.
>
>  [...]
>
>  As it happens, the exchange occurred on the same day the
>  Senate passed legislation described as the "Defense of Decency
>  Act" by 99 to 1.
>
>  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3699-2004Jun24.html
>
>
>Jesse Sheidlower


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Jun 25 15:01:36 2004
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:01:36 -0400
Subject: "Uptown" v. "downtown" w/meaning: "main shopping district"
In-Reply-To: <l03130300bd013d4b81ed@[12.107.146.38]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.110136.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:29 PM 6/24/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> >In Marshall, Texas, my birthplace, the county courthouse stands on the
> >highest point in town, facing the main shopping district, which is
> >referred to as "uptown" by the locals. Everyplace else that I've ever
> >lived - various places in Missouri, California, Illinois, &
> >Massachusetts, the main shopping district is referred to as "downtown."
> >So, wrt Marshall, it's obvious that downtown is referred to as "uptown"
> >because it quite literally is _up_town, as any fool can plainly see.
> >However, an article in the NYT Travel section noted that, in
> >Charleston, SC, too, downtown is referred to locally as "uptown," but
> >provided no further information. Does anyone know how the Charleston
> >usage came to be?
> >
> >-Wilson Gray
>~~~~~~~~~
>There was some discussion of these expressions on this list several years
>ago.  You might consult the archives.  I do remember that "uptown" was
>found in quite a few places, and that it didn't necessarily relate to
>topography.
>A. Murie

Right.  In Athens, Ohio, a fairly flat town surrounded by hills, the
one-street shopping area-cum-courthouse is called "Uptown."  There ain't no
Downtown here, just two ugly malls.


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Jun 25 14:52:13 2004
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:52:13 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
In-Reply-To: <20040625130446.GA28371@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.105213.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And had the Senate tied on the Defense of Decency Act, our Veep/Senate Prez
most certainly would have voted for it!

FWIW, _The Nation_ has been printing "fuck" in full for some time
now.  Know of any others?

At 09:04 AM 6/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Followers of vulgarity may be interested to see that today's
>Washington Post includes the word "fuck" printed in full,
>with no dashes or asterisks, on page A4. The article concerns
>our Vice President's use of the term in the Senate:
>
>  Cheney Dismisses Critic With Obscenity
>  Clash With Leahy About Halliburton
>
>  [...]
>
>  "Fuck yourself," said the man who is a heartbeat from the presidency.
>
>  [...]
>
>  As it happens, the exchange occurred on the same day the
>  Senate passed legislation described as the "Defense of Decency
>  Act" by 99 to 1.
>
>  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3699-2004Jun24.html
>
>
>Jesse Sheidlower


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 25 15:20:48 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:20:48 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040625105245.01f796e0@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.112048.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 10:54:42AM -0400, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
> P.S.  When I first sent this message, I got a line saying the "word" might
> "get my keyboard washed out with soap."  Where does this come from?!?

Presumably Redmond, Washington, where they think they know what's
best for you.

> FWIW, _The Nation_ has been printing "fuck" in full for some time
> now.  Know of any others?

Almost everyone except for newspapers. Harper's and The Atlantic
have been printing it since the '60s, The New Yorker since the
mid-1980s. The N.Y. Times has only printed it once, in 1998
(Starr Report), but it has appeared in Time and Newsweek.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From an6993 at WAYNE.EDU  Fri Jun 25 15:27:59 2004
From: an6993 at WAYNE.EDU (Geoff Nathan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:27:59 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
In-Reply-To: <200406251512.AVL48676@mirapointmr3.wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.112759.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20040625/fdf4b61a/attachment.htm>

From stevekl at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 25 15:30:42 2004
From: stevekl at PANIX.COM (Steve Kl.)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:30:42 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
In-Reply-To: <20040625152048.GA13740@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.113042.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Headline on page 2 in todays freebie Metro that they distribute in the
subways here in Boston was "Cheney drops f-bomb"

-- Steve Kleinedler


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Fri Jun 25 15:57:30 2004
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:57:30 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
In-Reply-To: <20040625152048.GA13740@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.115730.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse Sheidlower said:
>On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 10:54:42AM -0400, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>  P.S.  When I first sent this message, I got a line saying the "word" might
>>  "get my keyboard washed out with soap."  Where does this come from?!?
>
>Presumably Redmond, Washington, where they think they know what's
>best for you.

Actually, Bev uses Eudora (I checked the headers), so this bit of
nannyism emanates from San Diego.

The feature is called "Mood Watch", and it can be turned off, if
you're so inclined, under Options.
--
 =============================================================================
Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jun 25 16:07:12 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:07:12 -0700
Subject: "fuck" in WashPost
In-Reply-To: <OCEFKEEBCCDKPHIMICJGEEIMCKAA.dave@wilton.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.090712.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 25, 2004, at 6:45 AM, Dave Wilton wrote:

> ...A similar editorial policy regarding "fuck" is Daily Variety's.
> They use
> "F-word" except in direct quotes when they print the unexpurgated word.
>
> "The bureau decided that U2 front man Bono's use of the F-word on the
> Golden
> Globes last year was not indecent, so NBC stations that aired it were
> not
> forced to pay any fines.
>
> "'This is really, really fucking brilliant,' Bono exclaimed after
> receiving
> an award."
>
> (Daily Variety, 15 January 2004, p. 8.)

has anyone actually listened to this?  if bono said "fucking" rather
than "fuckin'", that would suggest that the expletive wasn't really
spontaneous.

the other possibility is that Daily Variety can bring itself to quote
the word "fuck" but not to quote casual-speech "-in'" -- i.e., that the
staff thinks that the *correct* spelling of "fuckin'" is "fucking".
that would be entertaining.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Fri Jun 25 17:14:11 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:14:11 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in WashPost
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.131411.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

Is there anyone out there above the age of 6 who is so fucking naive as not
to know know what the word "fuck" ultimately refers to.

The last bastion of political correctness or should I call it censorship was
our newspapers until the motherfucker Cheney was quoted as having used the
forbidden word.

I guess that I owe the asshole a debt of gratitude.

I do not know about the rest of you but I have used the f word in everyday
discourse for more than 40 years as have all of my friends including born
again Christians.

I want to give both Cheney and The Washington Post congratulations for
bringing the word "fuck" into acceptable common usage.

BTW you do know the correct response when someone tells you to get fucked.

It is, of course, " Thank you for your best wishes. I will do so as soon as
possible."

Page Stephens


From orinkh at CARR.ORG  Fri Jun 25 17:08:21 2004
From: orinkh at CARR.ORG (Orin Hargraves)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:08:21 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.130821.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just a suggestion -- which would be very helpful to me, perhaps to others:
when the f-word or some other vulgarism is the subject of a thread or posting,
how about disguising it in the subject line: e.g., as "the f-word," or "f**k."
My ISP's spam filter (about which I have otherwise only the highest praise)
will not let things like this through when they appear in the subject line,
though it doesn't seem to care about the content. If I want to read anything
from such a thread I have to spring it from "Quarantine," which is unwieldly
and not always dependable. Thanks!

Orin Hargraves


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 25 17:17:34 2004
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:17:34 EDT
Subject: Absolute "not so much" = "not really"
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.131734.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

So, this "not so much" thing still sounds very new/affected even though I use
it quite often.  It still feels like a quote, and sure enough... here it is
in "Friends".  I have no doubt that that's where I got it from, but I won't
guess about the origin.
I found this "Friends" transcript online (http://www.eigo-i.com/friends/).
It seems to be a reliable source.  The first cite is maybe questionable, but
the second one is dead on.  I didn't search beyond the second cite for any
others.
Season 1, Episode 103 "The One with the Thumb"
Chandler: Don't think of it as a cigarette. Think of it as the thing that's
been missing from your hand. When you're holding it, you feel right. You feel
complete.
Joey: Y'miss it?
Chandler: Nah, not so much. Alright, now we smoke. (Takes a puff.) Oh.. my..
God. (He continues to smoke.)

Season 6, Episode 12, "The One with the Joke"
Chandler: (picks up the phone) All right, you want to see if the joke stealer
will let us watch the show at his place?
Joey: Sure.
Chandler: (with phone to ear, obviously hearing no dial tone) Paid your phone
bill?
Joey: Not so much.

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 25 17:28:31 2004
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:28:31 EDT
Subject: double a-prefixing?
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.132831.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another random a-prefixing wierdness... last Saturday, my mother-in-law-to-be
said:
"I musta been a-gonna write on it." (describing some odd scrap of paper she
found).

It struck me (and my husband-to-be) as odd.  Now, forgive the bad syntactic
description, but I think this is the first time I've heard the a-prefix on the
"future going" rather than the "movement going".

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Fri Jun 25 17:30:36 2004
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:30:36 EDT
Subject: "Ignorant" = "rude" a Scotticism?
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.133036.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Confirmed.  I, and two other SoIL natives, all 25 or under, know and use
"ignorant" as "rude".  I also know it the other way as rude=ignorant, but I think
that's literary affectation creeping in.

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Jun 25 17:57:18 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:57:18 -0400
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
In-Reply-To: <20040625040046.2A133228C8@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.135718.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Anne Gilbert <kebara at COMCAST.NET>wrote:

        >>>
Barbara:

> That's the version I grew up with, but I have also heard the third line as
>
> If one of those bottle should happen to fall

Hmmmmmm. . . . I never heard that version when I was growing up.  There must
be regional variations of one kind or another.
Anne G
        <<<

That's the first version I learned (with "bottles"; I assume that the
singular above is a typo). Summer camp, either New York State or
Connecticut, late 1950s or early 1960s.

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Jun 25 17:58:31 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:58:31 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
In-Reply-To: <40D7F23D@mail.carr.org>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.135831.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 01:08:21PM -0400, Orin Hargraves wrote:
> Just a suggestion -- which would be very helpful to me, perhaps to others:
> when the f-word or some other vulgarism is the subject of a thread or posting,
> how about disguising it in the subject line: e.g., as "the f-word," or "f**k."
> My ISP's spam filter (about which I have otherwise only the highest praise)
> will not let things like this through when they appear in the subject line,
> though it doesn't seem to care about the content. If I want to read anything
> from such a thread I have to spring it from "Quarantine," which is unwieldly
> and not always dependable. Thanks!

Actually, I think that the right response should be for you to
complain vigorously to your ISP, or switch to another one. I'm
sorry that it's difficult for you, but this is a scholarly list,
and I don't want to censor it or misrepresent message contents
just to get around a prudish spam filter.

Perhaps not directly relevant, but I've just looked at my own
mail logs. Since 5:20 A.M. on 9 June, the last time I rolled
over my log (I won't bother searching my older logs, but I
think the results would be similar), I've received 15,583
e-mails; of these, the ones containing "fuck" in the subject
line (in any capitalization) are:

 panix2~ $ grep -i 'Subject:.*fuck' .procmail/log
 Subject: Every guy's fantasy is a girl who asks to be fucked in the ass! megal
 Subject: Hey! My Fucking Wife Gets F.U.C.K.E.D
 Subject: Looking for no strings attached sex? 1. Find 2. Meet 3. Fuck!
 Subject: Hardcoe Fucking and Sucking DVD's
 Subject: mom, daughter and son fucking!.. camellia
 Subject: you are the fuckfriend-bro  sari
 Subject: "fuck" in WashPost
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in WashPost
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in Wash Post
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in Wash Post
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in Wash Post
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in Wash Post
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in Wash Post
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in Wash Post
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in WashPost
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in WashPost
 Subject: Re: "fuck" in Wash Post

In other words, 6 messages of 15,583, or .03%, are spam with "fuck" in
the subject. Maybe my mail patterns are really weird, but from my
data it would seem that filtering on the presence of "fuck" in the
subject line is a pretty bad way of stopping spam. (And for what
it's worth, all six of those messages were caught by other means
by my spam tools.)

Best,

Jesse Sheidlower


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Jun 25 17:49:48 2004
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:49:48 -0400
Subject: double a-prefixing?
In-Reply-To: <1d6.24ca3ad0.2e0dbabf@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.134948.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:28 PM 6/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Another random a-prefixing wierdness... last Saturday, my mother-in-law-to-be
>said:
>"I musta been a-gonna write on it." (describing some odd scrap of paper she
>found).
>
>It struck me (and my husband-to-be) as odd.  Now, forgive the bad syntactic
>description, but I think this is the first time I've heard the a-prefix on the
>"future going" rather than the "movement going".
>
>-dsb
>Douglas S. Bigham
>Department of Linguistics
>University of Texas - Austin
>http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html

It's not really so weird, and it's not quite future.  If you "formalize"
it, it's "I must have been going to write on it" = planning to, therefore
present perfect progressive?  But even if it's future gonna, think of "I'm
a-gonna do it"--not weird at all.


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Jun 25 17:33:59 2004
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:33:59 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
In-Reply-To: <p06110401bd01fb9876b0@[130.132.95.208]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.133359.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Alice--it worked!

At 11:57 AM 6/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Jesse Sheidlower said:
>>On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 10:54:42AM -0400, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>>  P.S.  When I first sent this message, I got a line saying the "word" might
>>>  "get my keyboard washed out with soap."  Where does this come from?!?
>>
>>Presumably Redmond, Washington, where they think they know what's
>>best for you.
>
>Actually, Bev uses Eudora (I checked the headers), so this bit of
>nannyism emanates from San Diego.
>
>The feature is called "Mood Watch", and it can be turned off, if
>you're so inclined, under Options.
>--
>==============================================================================
>Alice Faber                                             faber at haskins.yale.edu
>Haskins Laboratories                                  tel: (203) 865-6163 x258
>New Haven, CT 06511 USA                                     fax (203) 865-8963


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Fri Jun 25 18:06:42 2004
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 14:06:42 -0400
Subject: 99 bottles of beer on the wall(1955)
In-Reply-To: <20040625135442.G38267@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.140642.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 01:57 PM 6/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>  Anne Gilbert <kebara at COMCAST.NET>wrote:
>
>         >>>
>Barbara:
>
> > That's the version I grew up with, but I have also heard the third line as
> >
> > If one of those bottle should happen to fall
>
>Hmmmmmm. . . . I never heard that version when I was growing up.  There must
>be regional variations of one kind or another.
>Anne G
>         <<<
>
>That's the first version I learned (with "bottles"; I assume that the
>singular above is a typo). Summer camp, either New York State or
>Connecticut, late 1950s or early 1960s.
>
>-- Mark A. Mandel
>[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

That was my version too; the second version I associate with the next
generation.  And the 1955 date is late; I knew it long before that (well,
maybe 5 years earlier at least).  We sang it on the school bus going home
from basketball games and such.


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Fri Jun 25 19:35:56 2004
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 15:35:56 -0400
Subject: "fuck" in WashPost
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.153556.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:14:11 -0400 Page Stephens <hpst at EARTHLINK.NET>
writes:

> I do not know about the rest of you but I have used the f word in
> everyday
> discourse for more than 40 years as have all of my friends

I can go weeks without hearing it in conversation. I guess we have
different kinds of friends, which I suspect pleases us both.

D

I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Jun 25 23:22:38 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 16:22:38 -0700
Subject: blending error
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.162238.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on today's (6/25/04) "Fresh Air" on NPR, Alain de Botton committed the
following, which s transparently an inadvertent blend:

...look at the power of art has to...

(look at the power of art to.../look at the power art has to...)

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Jun 26 00:52:29 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:52:29 -0700
Subject: slang (was Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay])
In-Reply-To: <20040602160518.GA8522@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.175229.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 2, 2004, at 9:05 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 11:15:31AM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>
>>         I think that the last time around, the majority view, which I
>> found convincing, was that words such as "fuck" were not in fact
>> slang.  Consider the AHD4 definition of "slang":
>>
>>         <<NOUN: 1. A kind of language occurring chiefly in casual and
>> playful speech, made up typically of short-lived coinages and figures
>> of speech that are deliberately used in place of standard terms for
>> added raciness, humor, irreverence, or other effect. 2. Language
>> peculiar to a group; argot or jargon: thieves' slang.>>
>>
>>         "Fuck" doesn't really fit either of these definitions, even
>> though AHD4 and other dictionaries do label it as slang.
>
> It doesn't fit? I do think that "fuck" occurs chiefly in casual speech
> and is deliberately used for added raciness or irreverence or other
> effect. The purportedly "short-lived" nature of slang is something
> I've always thought is wrong, but since AHD modifies it with
> "typically" we can ignore it here.

i realize this is now a bit out of date, but i want to complain about
the whole basis of this discussion.

over on soc.motss, we just had an exquisitely pointless thread about
whether "Ms." (or, if you will, "Ms") was or was not an "abbreviation".
  (the thread was further derailed by the fact that one -- fortunately,
only one, but an incredibly bull-headed one -- participant was
incapable of appreciating the difference between a vowel sound and a
vowel letter.)  my major contribution was to observe that
"abbreviation" is an ordinary-language term, not a technical term of
linguistics, and that though there was a core of examples (like "Rte."
for "Route") that everyone pretty much agreed should count as
abbreviations, there were also a huge number of types of short
spellings -- including initialisms, acronyms, clippings of several
kinds, "reduced" pronunciations spelled with apostrophes, right up to
"&" read as "and" -- with other schemes for spelling/pronunciation
pairing than the relatively simple one for "Rte."  so, the question,
"is X an abbreviation?" often doesn't have a sensible answer.

the deeper point is that linguistics can't just take over
ordinary-language vocabulary about language (which, after all,
represents some rough folk theory about these matters, one that
probably embodies some insight but was never intended as a systematic
analysis of the domain) and elevate it to scientific status.  instead,
you need to start by asking what concepts are needed, and then choose
terminology.

we shouldn't be asking what abbreviations *really* are, as if the
concept of "abbreviation" was given ahead of time and our task was to
hunt it down.

so it is with slang.  "slang" is a piece of ordinary-language
metavocabulary.  at its broadest, it takes in every sort of expression
that (for whatever reason) isn't appropriate in the general formal
written standard language; this is the parallel to something being a
"short spelling" (for whatever value of "short").  at its narrowest,
it's stuff that's informal, spoken, nonstandard, restricted to some
social group (where it serves as a group marker), and ephemeral.  in
between, there's all *sorts* of stuff, and it really makes no sense to
ask if these things are *really* slang.  the concept of "slang" isn't
given ahead of time, lying out there, just waiting for us to figure out
its shape and nature.

our business is to figure out what concepts play a role in this domain
of language use and then to choose good terminology for them.  maybe we
can find a place for the word "slang" in there, maybe not.  meanwhile,
though, we're just thrashing around, bewitched by words.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Jun 26 02:24:58 2004
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 19:24:58 -0700
Subject: "fuck" in Wash Post
In-Reply-To: <20040625175831.GA21860@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.192458.0700.>

> In other words, 6 messages of 15,583, or .03%, are spam with "fuck" in
> the subject. Maybe my mail patterns are really weird, but from my
> data it would seem that filtering on the presence of "fuck" in the
> subject line is a pretty bad way of stopping spam. (And for what
> it's worth, all six of those messages were caught by other means
> by my spam tools.)

While I agree with the comment about not censoring the list (how can we talk
sensibly about those words if we can't use them?), I'm not sure this last is
necessarily valid. The lack of "fuck" in spam subject lines could be a
result of natural selection. Since the very first spam filter probably
killfiled messages with "fuck" in the subject, very few spammers actually
use the term. If anti-spam filters were to stop filtering on this, the
incidence would undoubtedly rise.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 26 03:54:55 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 23:54:55 EDT
Subject: Taco Salad (September 1964)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.JUN.2004.235455.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The LOS ANGELES TIMES Proquest digitization is now through October 1964.
Still no Hidden Valley Ranch dressing or California Roll to report.  No
Cal-Mex or even a Tex-Mex.
   OT:  I'm free from parking tickets for 48 whole hours!


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
MY BEST RECIPE; Taco Salad Uses Lettuce, Corn Chips
MRS MARILYN JONES. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles,
Calif.: Sep 20, 1964. p. I8 (1 page) :
   "This is one of my family's favorite hot weather dishes," says Mrs.
Marilyn Jones.  "We often make a meal of this salad with refried beans, milk and
fruit."

      _TACO SALAD_
1 head lettuce, shredded
1/2 cup grated Cheddar cheese
1 medium onion, chopped
10-oz. can steamed tomatoes
1 lb. ground beef
1/4 cup taco sauce
6-oz. pkg. corn chips
   Place lettuce, cheese and onion in salad bowl.  Drain tomatoes well.  Save
juice, add tomatoes to salad mixture.  Brown ground beef, breaking it up as
it browns.  Pour off fat.  Add juice from tomatoes and taco sauce to meat and
simmer 5 min.  Add to salad along with corn chips.  Toss lightly and serve at
once.  Makes 6 ample servings.
   MRS. MARILYN JONES,
   8355 Leroy St.,
   San Gabriel.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 26 04:59:56 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 00:59:56 -0400
Subject: "beatnik"--coined by Herb Caen?
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.005956.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That claim, made tonight on Jeopardy, is supported by various web
sites (the idea being that the San Francisco Chronicle columnist came
up with the term in a 1958 column, of course as a blend of "beat
(generation)" and "sputnik"), but does not appear in the OED entry
for the word.  The RHHDAS does endorse the Herb Caen coinage, though.
Are any antedates available, or is this an rare actual instance of a
verifiable and attested coinage?

larry


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun 26 05:12:59 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 01:12:59 -0400
Subject: "Gussied up" (1912, 1914)
In-Reply-To: <1d7.249db3d5.2e0e4d8f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.011259.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The tennis player Gussie Moran apparently was not responsible. HDAS has
1952 (plus a bracketed 1928 item of uncertain relevance).

----------

_Indianapolis Star_, 17 March 1912: p. 7(?), col. 1:

<<The young Shipping Clerk used to fly to his Kennel and get himself all
Gussied up, and then edge into the Parlor and turn the Music for Miss
Livingstone, ....>>

----------

_Los Angeles Times_, 13 March 1914: p. I12:

<<In the Spring the young man's fancy, lightly / Turns to thoughts of
colthes [sic] / He wants himself all gussied up, as Nature garbs the rose.>>

----------

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 26 05:36:26 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 01:36:26 EDT
Subject: Close/Good enough for government work; The Right Track (Twain &
 Will Rogers)
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.013626.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE RIGHT TRACK (TWAIN & WILL ROGERS)

   "Good enough for government work" budgets only keep us numb and compound
the problem.  We need to aim not just for short-term responsibility but
long-term responsibility, a bold vision as well as calming competence. As Will Rogers
once reminded us, "Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if
you just sit there."
--NEW YORK SUN, J. P. Avlon opinion column, June 25-27, 2004, pg. 8, col. 5.


   Way back on 8 April 2004, I'd posted the following on ADS-L.  The NEW YORK
SUN piece was by the same J. P. Avlon:

   Mark Twain?  Will Rogers?  Someone else?
   From the NEW YORK SUN, 8 April 2004, pg. 9, col. 5:  Deputy Secretary of
State Richard Armitage memorably summed up the situation our nation found
itself in by quoting Mark Twain in his recent testimony to the 9/11 Commission:
"Even though you're on the right track, you can get run over if you're not going
fast enough."


   I wrote a letter to the editor of the NEW YORK SUN telling them that it
was absolutely NOT from Mark Twain, but was probably from Will Rogers.  The
letter was never published.  No one even responded.
   Two-and-one-half months later, the quote is now given to Will Rogers!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
CLOSE/GOOD ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK

CLOSE ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK--4,580 Google hits, 5,770 Google Groups hits
GOOD ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK--2,450 Google hits, 1,690 Google Groups hits


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: "Good enough for government work"
... the requirements of the job at hand. If it good enough for government
work, its good enough! Most people use the phrase, "It's good ...
alt.usage.english - Sep 9, 1998 by John Gilmer - View Thread (11 articles)


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("enough for government work")
   Mountain Democrat    Thursday, February 27, 1992 Placerville, California

...A-5 Justice: Prop 13 'close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK' By VLAE KERSHNER
c.1992.....It's not perfect, but it's close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT he added,
drawing..

   Mountain Democrat    Thursday, February 27, 1992 Placerville, California

...A-5 Justice: Prop 13 'close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK' By VLAE KERSHNER
c.1992.....It's not perfect, but it's close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT he added,
drawing..

   Chronicle Telegram   Monday, February 21, 2000 Elyria, Ohio
...lifelike, he decides close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK. He clears his
throat.....himself, yet now he couldn't use it ENOUGH. John was running FOR
president..

   Indiana Evening Gazette  Thursday, September 15, 1966 Indiana,
Pennsylvania
...a old one. That is close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK. You see During
this.....over. Gemini 11: Yes, well ft teems to WORK. Gemini 11 (minutes I sure
wish..
Pg. 16, col. 6:
_Excerpts Of Radio Talk Between Astronauts, Ground COntrol Stations--_
_"11" Crew Slept Between Periods of Chatting, Tossing_
      By JOE ZELLNER
   CAPE KENNEDY, Fla. (AP)--(...)
   Ground:  You should be right over New Orleans.  Maybe Pensacola or Mobile.
   Houston:  Do you require a point in command for the next star?
   (Command Pilot Charles--ed.) Conrad:  Thanks a lot.  You guys are all
right.  We used the old one.  That is close enough for government work.

   Mountain Democrat    Wednesday, February 07, 1996 Placerville, California

...This is the ol' "it's close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK" theory. If you've
got.....has been running through what passes FOR a creek out here. This is
good FOR..

   Mountain Democrat    Monday, April 24, 2000 Placerville, California
...quite precise, it's close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK, as they say. Why do
we.....Winery Entrance 30 Feet Ahead." Sure ENOUGH, there it was, a driveway
marked..

   Mountain Democrat    Friday, June 28, 1985 Placerville, California
...Yarborough said is "good ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK." the growing section
of.....aviation airport with a runway long ENOUGH to acromm.uddte executive
jets..

   Mountain Democrat    Wednesday, April 29, 1992 Placerville, California
...13 "rough and ready, close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK." What they were
talking.....when bald-faced inequities last long ENOUGH politicians may feel more
heat..

 Coshocton Tribune  Friday, November 05, 1976 Coshocton, Ohio
...he .supposes it was "close ENOUGH FOR GOVERNMENT WORK." Other red-faced
city.....up FOR November shifts, and 29 is not ENOUGH to cover each of the 744
hours in..


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("enough for government work")
    1.  An Astronomical Journey in Arizona
By IRA HENRY FREEMAN. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct
28, 1979. p. XX14 (1 page) :
   "This scope is also used for the study of the stars and planets," Joe
said.  "With it astronmers predicted the distance to the moon within six inches.
When I told a party that the other day, a man said, 'Well, that's close enough
for government work.'"

    2.  How Much for Defense?
R. James Woolsey. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.:
Jun 5, 1980. p. A19 (1 page)

    3.  The Y Cookies Return: A la Cart; Jottings
By Marian Burros. The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.:
Apr 2, 1981. p. E1 (2 pages)

    4.  Not Good Enough
KURT M. HUGHES. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 3,
1984. p. 24 (1 page) :
   How else will the phrase "good enough for Government work" become
obsolete?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------
"HOT DOG" & 1904 WORLD'S FAIR (continued)

   OK, so I didn't get any credit for the Will Rogers quote.  Surely, after
all these years and years and years and years, I get credit for "hot dog"?


BEYOND THE ICE CREAM CONE:
THE WHOLE SCOOP ON FOOD AT THE 1904 WORLD'S FAIR
by Pamela J. Vaccaro
St. Louis: Enid Press
174 pages, paperback
April 2004

   Vaccaro debunks the idea that "iced tea" was invented at the 1904 World's
Fair.  Why, someone's found a citation for "iced tea" from 1890!  (See ADS-L
archives.)  Yes, it's that kind of scholarship.
   But onward we go to my name.  It's Barry Popik...

Pg. 112:  Hot dog historian (Yes, there is one!) Bruce Kraig, Ph.D., names
the college magazines of the late 1800s as the place where the term "hot dog"
began appearing in print.  At Yale in the fall of 1894, references were made to
the then-accepted practice of "dog wagons" selling "hot dogs."


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun 26 06:00:26 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 02:00:26 -0400
Subject: "beatnik"--coined by Herb Caen?
In-Reply-To: <p0432040ebd02b1acd60a@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.020026.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>That claim, made tonight on Jeopardy, is supported by various web
>sites (the idea being that the San Francisco Chronicle columnist came
>up with the term in a 1958 column, of course as a blend of "beat
>(generation)" and "sputnik"), but does not appear in the OED entry
>for the word.  The RHHDAS does endorse the Herb Caen coinage, though.
>Are any antedates available, or is this an rare actual instance of a
>verifiable and attested coinage?

I can't refute the claim.

I suppose the basis for the coinage is "beat" + "-nik", with the
Russian/Yiddish suffix "-nik" possibly applied by analogy with the already
available "nudnik", which was itself popularized ca. 1957 by its
association with "sputnik" IIRC. Just my naive notion.

-- Doug Wilson


From rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET  Sat Jun 26 07:41:35 2004
From: rkmck at EARTHLINK.NET (Kim & Rima McKinzey)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 00:41:35 -0700
Subject: "beatnik"--coined by Herb Caen?
In-Reply-To: <200406252201.1bE5jr6do3NZFmQ0@tanager.mail.pas.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.004135.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>...That claim, made tonight on Jeopardy, is supported by various web
>sites (the idea being that the San Francisco Chronicle columnist came
>up with the term in a 1958 column,...

He always claimed it was his coinage.

Rima


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Jun 26 11:53:36 2004
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:53:36 -0400
Subject: "beatnik"--coined by Herb Caen?
In-Reply-To: <p0432040ebd02b1acd60a@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.075336.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004, Laurence Horn wrote:

> That claim, made tonight on Jeopardy, is supported by various web
> sites (the idea being that the San Francisco Chronicle columnist came
> up with the term in a 1958 column, of course as a blend of "beat
> (generation)" and "sputnik"), but does not appear in the OED entry
> for the word.  The RHHDAS does endorse the Herb Caen coinage, though.
> Are any antedates available, or is this an rare actual instance of a
> verifiable and attested coinage?

Yes, it was a Herb Caen coinage, clearcut.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Jun 26 12:46:43 2004
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 05:46:43 -0700
Subject: Incest as a verb (was "fuck" in Wash Post)
In-Reply-To: <OCEFKEEBCCDKPHIMICJGOEJECKAA.dave@wilton.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.054643.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yesterday on the Dr. Phil show, a female
guest, 50-ish, said, "I was incested by two men in my
family when I was a child."  (The guest (Anne) was
discussing her addiction to sex.) I've never
heard  'incest' used  as a verb.  Is anyone familiar
with this usage?

Margaret Lee

Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET> wrote:
> In other words, 6 messages of 15,583, or .03%, are spam with "fuck" in
> the subject. Maybe my mail patterns are really weird, but from my
> data it would seem that filtering on the presence of "fuck" in the
> subject line is a pretty bad way of stopping spam. (And for what
> it's worth, all six of those messages were caught by other means
> by my spam tools.)

While I agree with the comment about not censoring the list (how can we talk
sensibly about those words if we can't use them?), I'm not sure this last is
necessarily valid. The lack of "fuck" in spam subject lines could be a
result of natural selection. Since the very first spam filter probably
killfiled messages with "fuck" in the subject, very few spammers actually
use the term. If anti-spam filters were to stop filtering on this, the
incidence would undoubtedly rise.

--Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net


Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D.
Professor of English & Linguistics
  and University Editor
Department of English
Hampton University, Hampton, VA 23668
757-727-5769(voice);757-727-5084(fax);757-851-5773(home)
margaret.lee at hamptonu.edu   or   mlee303 at yahoo.com

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sat Jun 26 13:05:04 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 09:05:04 -0400
Subject: Who says this?
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.090504.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yesterday on BBC a newsreader giving a financial report spoke, e.g.,  ".3 %
of ....... "  as "point three of a percent of...." over  and over (with
appropriate numerical variation).
It fell so oddly on my ear that I can't believe I've ever heard it in
either Brit or No Am English  before.
Anyone know this usage?
A. Murie


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Jun 26 18:05:37 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:05:37 EDT
Subject: "Gussied Up" from Jerry; Sign on dotted line (1913)
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.140537.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"GUSSIED UP" FROM GERALD COHEN

[to ads-l]:
Douglas Wilson's early dating of "Gussy up" is interesting. About ten years
ago I wrote on article on the expression and will send the title and reference
to ads-l when I return from vacation next week.
Meanwhile, I remember that the expression most likely derives from a
character named August (Beekham or something similar) in a once popular but now
obscure 19th century novel titled _Miss Nobody of Nowhere_. August, aka "little
Gussie" was always overdressed--a quintessential "dude" as the term was used in
the 1880's amd '90's.

   I've asked Barry Popik to mail this message to ads-l; If I send messages
to ads-l from anywhere other than my own computer, they will arrive encrypted.

Gerald Cohen

    -----Original Message-----
    From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Douglas G. Wilson
    Sent: Sat 6/26/2004 12:12 AM
    To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA
    Subject: "Gussied up" (1912, 1914)



    The tennis player Gussie Moran apparently was not responsible. HDAS has
    1952 (plus a bracketed 1928 item of uncertain relevance).

    ----------

    _Indianapolis Star_, 17 March 1912: p. 7(?), col. 1:

    <<The young Shipping Clerk used to fly to his Kennel and get himself all
    Gussied up, and then edge into the Parlor and turn the Music for Miss
    Livingstone, ....>>

    ----------

    _Los Angeles Times_, 13 March 1914: p. I12:

    <<In the Spring the young man's fancy, lightly / Turns to thoughts of
    colthes [sic] / He wants himself all gussied up, as Nature garbs the
rose.>>

    ----------

    -- Doug Wilson

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
"SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE"

   The new parking violations computer system has people sign in on the
dotted line.  Actually, it's like the line above this--it's a DASHED line.  But you
can't say that or people will go "dotty."


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("sign on the dotted line")
Trenton Evening Times Monday, July 22, 1918 Trenton, New Jersey
...THE Red Triangle, bout to SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE. Tom Sharkey is in
excellent.....Two. oTHEr light routid.ers areoh THE bill.In" .-THE' 'op'ON'er,
-Dave THE..

Oxnard Courier Thursday, December 12, 1918 Oxnard, California
...some mONey ana asked to SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE. "What he inquired.
"It's.....for your Xmas photos. We have a nice LINE of medalliON folders to choose
from..

Bridgeport Telegram Friday, May 17, 1918 Bridgeport, Connecticut
...Gei'ai'cVs refusal to SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE and THE statement
that.....Park MONday night, and THE S. R. p. SIGN will hang out early. So for your..

Oxnard Courier Friday, December 13, 1918 Oxnard, California
...so-ne mONey ana asked to SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE. "What tie inquired.
"It's.....and is perhaps THE last visible SIGN of THE scourge which i has..


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("sign on the dotted line")
  1. Display Ad 15 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 3, 1913. p. 19 (1
page):
   JUST two things confuse the "easy buyer" and tempt him to sign on the
dotted line for a delivery truck--namely--_Liberal Discounts_ and _Claims of Low
Operating Cost_!
(Ad for Chase Motor Trucks--ed.)

  2. PATRIOTISM RINGS.; Alhambra Makes a Whirlwind Finish in Tank Liberty
LoanDrive.
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 13, 1918. p.
I11 (1 page)

  3. CHATS WITH VISITORS IN WASHINGTON
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Mar 29, 1919. p. 6 (1
page)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sat Jun 26 18:10:58 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 11:10:58 -0700
Subject: the thin line between error and mere variation
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.111058.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In trying to write some commentary on Geoff Nunberg's discussion of
"nucular" (in a 10/2/02 Fresh Air commentary on NPR, now in his
collection Going Nucular), i've been reflecting on that thin line
between error and mere variation.

Nunberg begins this piece by drawing a distinction between "typos" and
"thinkos" -- in my terms, between inadvertent errors, things that are
"wrong" for the person who produces them, and advertent errors, things
that are ok so far as the producer is concerned but "wrong" from the
point of view of at least some other people.  (Faced with a typo, you
call in the psycholinguist; faced with a thinko, you call in the
sociolinguist.)

The distinction is a familiar one in the literature on language errors.
  In the typo camp, you have, for instance, Fay/Cutler malapropisms (so
called from a 1977 article by David Fay and Anne Cutler), like my
(alas, only too frequent) productions of "verb" for "vowel", or vice
versa, in class lectures.  In the thinko camp, you have, for instance,
classical malapropisms (so labeled by me in a 1979 article), like
"behest [beset] with all these difficulties", written by someone who
*meant* to write "behest" (and was willing to defend this word choice).
  It might be hard to decide, in any particular instance, which kind of
malapropism you're looking at, but in principle, with more information
about the producer and their intentions, you can sort things out.

But matters are not so clear in the world of thinkos.  The deviance of
thinkos ranges from extremely high, as in clear examples of classical
malapropisms, to extremely low, as in violations of the more fanciful
proscriptivist pronouncements, like the one against possessive
antecedents of pronouns.

(A side issue: It would be a good thing to expunge the moral language
usually applied to thinkos, even by Nunberg, who should know better:
Typos "can make you look foolish, but they aren't really the signs of
an intellectual or ethical deficiency, the way thinkos are.  It's the
difference between a sentence that expresses an idea badly and a
sentence that expresses a bad idea." (p. 59 of GN).  Look at the most
extreme case...  Someone who writes "behest" for "beset" is certainly
wrong.  But they aren't morally defective, or evil, or stupid.
Technically, they are very specifically ignorant, of one  of the
zillion facts about the world one might be called on to marshal in
everyday life.  It's like getting Bjo"rk mixed up with Bork, or not
knowing at all who Hugo Wolf is.)

The "behest" thing is, yes, an extreme case.  But things don't get any
clearer as we work towards possessive antecedents.  They just get
messier and messier, in fact.  As soon as we leave the clear "behest"
zone (where almost everyone says the usage is wrong for them), we have
to confront a world in which usage is contested and variable.

We come first to the Retart Zone, a label I use to honor a poster to
the newsgroup sci.lang:
-------------
"D---" on sci.lang, 6/24/04, called by Peter Daniels on the voiceless
final consonant in his insult "What a retart":

And what's wrong with my use of "retart"...it's a perfectly acceptable
word when describing
those who are SLOW.  A retart is a SLOW person.
-------------
In later discussion, the pugnacious D--- concedes that (some) other
people say, and write, "retard", but maintains that *his* version is
perfectly fine.  That is, he claims that this is a case of variation,
not error.  He is surely in a small minority in his pronunciation, but
probably not a loner; I have no doubt that some searching would turn up
others with his pronunciation.

Certainly, there *are* plenty of examples of variation.  Some English
speakers (I am one) have a voiceless final consonant in "with", some
have a voiced final (a fact that I did not appreciate until I gave an
exercise in phonetic transcription in an introductory linguistics
course); I believe that the voiced variant is statistically the
predominant one, by a considerable margin (some dictionaries list only
this pronunciation), but theta-speakers like me don't provoke dark
looks and snickers with our minority pronunciation.  Similarly, some
English speakers (including a great many South Africans) have edh
rather than theta in the "South" of "South Africa"; I believe that they
are definitely in the minority in the English-speaking world, but who
am I, an American theta-speaker, to tell South Africans how to
pronounce the name of their country?  Similarly, many New Yorkers stand
"on line" rather than "in line"; they're a small minority in the
English-speaking world, and they are aware (at some level) that other
people use "in" here, but everybody knows that people speak differently
in different places, so where do you get off telling them they're
"wrong"?

On the other hand, we do tell "needs V-ed" speakers (again, a small
minority in the English-speaking world) that they're "wrong".  These
folks are aware (at some level) that other people say "needs V-ing",
but most of the people they know personally are "needs V-ed" speakers,
so from their point of view, they're talking appropriately, and the
dark looks and snickers from outsiders are just nastiness.

Even in the Retart Zone, we're in trouble.  What's unremarkable
variation, and what's an thinko-type error?

But then we get to the Nucular Zone, the Hone-In-On Zone, and the
Another-Thing-Coming Zone.  The percentage of people who use the
(historically) innovative variant steadily increases.  (Google web
searches have "home in on" somewhat above "hone in on", 64,200 to
35,200 in raw numbers, but "another thing coming" *way* over "another
think coming", 21,400 to 5,830.)  Those who use the innovative variants
are probably aware (at some level) that other people have other
variants, but for them this is just unremarkable variation, and their
version is, well, *their* version, and perfectly ok.

The argument from history isn't going to carry much weight for these
people, and anyway it's intellectually disreputable, since very few
current standard variants have a pedigree going back to Old English;
almost everything was an innovation at some point.  How to decide when
the ship of language change has sailed?

The argument from authority won't carry much weight, either.  I can
tell you that *I* (a noted linguist and writer) use "nuclear", "home in
on", and "another think coming" (and "too big a dog" rather than "too
big of a dog", but don't use positive "anymore", etc.), but you're
entitled to ask why I should be telling you how to talk and to note
that anyway you think I sound bookish and prissy.

If anything might work, it would be the appeal to the practice of those
who are noted for their abilities in writing and speaking -- there's a
reason AHD ended up with a Usage Panel, awkward though it turned out to
be -- but in fact these experts are quite often divided in their
practices and in their opinions, and in any case they're not
necessarily models for writing and speaking in other than formal
contexts.

All of this is familiar territory for people on this list.  The fact
seems to be that the line between mere variation and error is largely a
matter of intellectual fashion  -- lord knows why speaker-oriented
"hopefully", restrictive relative "which", split infinitives, logical
"since" and "while", etc. get picked on while other variants thrive
without criticism -- rather than a result of observation and reasoning.
  In this context, the label "thinko" doesn't really seem much better
than "error" or "mistake".

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), who has more to say specifically
about "nucular"


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Jun 26 20:13:47 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:13:47 -0400
Subject: "Gussied Up" from Jerry
In-Reply-To: <60.40a96f3f.2e0f14f1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.161347.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"GUSSIED UP" FROM GERALD COHEN
>
>[to ads-l]:
>Douglas Wilson's early dating of "Gussy up" is interesting. About ten years
>ago I wrote on article on the expression and will send the title and reference
>to ads-l when I return from vacation next week.
>Meanwhile, I remember that the expression most likely derives from a
>character named August (Beekham or something similar) in a once popular
>but now
>obscure 19th century novel titled _Miss Nobody of Nowhere_. August, aka
>"little
>Gussie" was always overdressed--a quintessential "dude" as the term was
>used in
>the 1880's amd '90's.

I am not convinced that the "Gussie" character in A. C. Gunter's novel
"Miss Nobody of Nowhere" is likely to be the ancestor of "gussied up": more
likely it is a cousin.

I have some glancing familiarity with Gunter's character names in "Little
Puck" (the play from which our modern word "jinx" appears to be descended
as I explained earlier on this list). I recall "Hercules Savage" as an
intimidating school principal and "Packingham Giltedge" as a prosperous
stockbroker: Gunter apparently was given (at least sometimes) to rather
transparent character names!

"Miss Nobody of Nowhere" was first published in 1888, AFAIK.

Consider this humorous item from early 1886:

----------

_New Era_ (Humeston IA), 7 Jan. 1886: p. 9(?), col. 2:

<<EVOLUTION OF THE OVERCOAT / How Gussie Gradually Brings the Garment into
Harmony with His Feminine Taste. / Caricaturists and writers have
endeavored to show that the garments of the gentle sex are becoming more
and more masculine as years pass on. .... a portion of alleged masculine
mankind is becoming affected in the other direction .... / .... / Take a
good look at this coat. It is last year's style, with a little lah-de-dah
cape half covering the shoulders[,] a pinched corset-suggesting waist, the
first departure towards the feminine cut. It is close-fitting and imparts a
suggestive doubt already as to the sex of its wearer, around whose slight
form it clings so lovingly. It is imported goods and possibly made in "deah
old London, ye know". / .... the overcoat took a step further and evolved
itself into the coat with a hood to it just like a lady's water-proof
cloak. They are to be seen daily all over town, as in this drawing, in
increasing numbers, showing that they have found favor with the "Gussies"
and "Chollies" who infest our society. No wonder women are wearing men's
attire when they see their own appropriated by these creatures. The step is
but a slight one to the next change in costume which "Gussie" will adopt.
In all probability next year you will see the overcoat worn by him adorned
with a large and beautiful bustle ....>>

----------

Here a "Gussie" is an affected and effeminate man, who likes 'sissy'
extravagances in clothing. I guess a "Chollie" (i.e., "Charlie") is
similar, and I've seen a few other "Gussie and Charlie" pairs referring to
'effete' men in the late-19th-century papers. Why these names? I don't
know; the usual speculations are available; "Gussie" is a sexually
ambiguous name and it permits a lisp, while "Charlie" permits an 'affected'
loss of the "r" (according to my naive impression of the notions of the time).

It is of course still conceivable that Gunter's character existed earlier:
for example the same character might have appeared in multiple Gunter
works, or the novel might have been serialized in a magazine earlier (if so
I can't find it now).

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 27 00:15:59 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:15:59 -0400
Subject: "99 bottles of beer on the wall" (one more time)
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.201559.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

http://p066.ezboard.com/fwordoriginsorgfrm1.showMessage?topicID=10501.topic
http://www.standingstones.com/greenbot.html

   Dave Wilton's site has a nice discussion of the song NINETY-NINE BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL.  "Ozziemaland" posted this originally, and then posted a song sheet from FORTY-NINE BOTTLES.  "Steve G" posted a fine article about the song TEN GREEN BOTTLES (see above).  "ElizaD" posted about "ten little frogs sitting on a well."
   All great work.  I hate those guys.
   Maybe someone should tell the Brooklyn Historical Society and its "NINETY-NINE BOTTLES-Brooklyn beer" exhibit curator?
   The NYPL's Lincoln Center Library for the Performing Arts, Music Division, had this note card in its card catalog, a-hanging on the wall:

NINETY-NINE BOTTLES
See also
   NINETY-NINE MILES FROM HOME
   FORTY-NINE BOTTLES
   NINETY-NINE BLUE BOTTLES

   "Forty-Nine Bottles" is in SONGS OF ALL THE COLLEGES by D. B. Chamberlain, comp. 1906.
   Another note card a-hanging on the wall said to look at two pages pasted to the back of A BIBLIOGRAPHY OF NORTH AMERICAN FOLKLORE AND FOLKSONG, VOLUME ONE (Dover Publications) by Charles Haywood (Professor of Music, Queens College, New York).  I'll type those two pages here:


JOHNSON & TANNENBAUM
ATTORNEYS AT LAW
FISK BUILDING
250 West 57th Street
New York, NY 10019
June 16, 1977

Gentlemen:

   Supplementing our report to you of June 15, 1977 in re the song

   NINETY-NINE BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL

we wish to advise you that a search of the records in the Folk Archives of the Library of Congress, Washington, D.C., disclosed the following references to the possible origin of the above song and variances thereof:

1.  _Tommy's Tunes: A Comprehensive Collection of SOldiers' Songs, Marching Melodies, Rude Rhymes and Poular Parodies Composed, Collected and Arranged on Active Service with the B.E.F._ [British Expeditionary Force] by F. T. Nettleingham, Second Lieutenant, R.F.C., London, Erskin, MacDonald, Ltd. "First published Oct. 1917.  All Rights Reserved.  Copyright in United States of America by Erskine, MacDonald, Ltd."

Song title: _Ninety-Nine Bottles on the Wall_

   "There were ninety-nine bottles hanging on the wall.
    There were ninety-nine bottles hanging on the wall.
    What would happen if one were to fall?
    Why, there'd be ninety-eight bottles hanging on the wall."
   "--and so on until tired."

2.  _Paradology: Songs for Fun and Fellowship_, Nashville, Cokesbury Press, 1927.  Text only.  p. 77.

Song title: _Ninety-Nine Miles From Home_

3.  _Bottoms Up_, by Clifford Leach, New York, Paull Pioneer Music Corp., 1933, p. 51 with music.

Song title: _Forty-Nine Bottles_.

4.  _G. I. Songs_, by Edgar A. Palmer, New York, Sheridan House, 1944, p. 208.

Song title: _Forty-Nine Bottles_

5.  _Ozark Folk Songs, Vol. 3, Humorous and Play-Party Songs_, collected and edited by Vance Randolph, Columbia, Missouri, State Historical Society of Missouri, 1949, p. 210, no. 456.

Song title: _Ninety-Nine Blue Bottles_

   "I heard my father sing this in the late '90s; he had learned it as a boy in South Carolina, shortly after the Civil War."  From Mrs. Hugo Blair, Joplin, Missouri, September 4, 1929:

   "Ninety-nine blue bottles a-hanging on the wall
    Take one blue bottle away from them all
    Leaves ninety-eight blue bottles a-hanging on the wall."

Note: the music printed here has a different tune from the usual one.

6.  _101+5 Folk Songs for Camp_, by Mike Cohen, New York, Oak Publications, 1966.

Song title: _Ninety-Nine Bottles of Beer_

   It appears from the foregoing that this song has long been in the public domain and is of unknown origin.

   Very truly yours,
   JOHNSON & TANNENBAUM
   (Signed--ed.)
   Samuel W. Tannenbaum


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Title: The most popular college songs :
selected from Songs of all the colleges ; Songs of the Eastern colleges and Songs of the Western colleges.
Publication: New York :; Hinds, Noble & Eldredge,
Edition: Rev. ed.
Year: 1997, 1906
Description: 124 p. ;; 26 cm.
Language: English
Music Type: Songs
Contents: Amiel -- Bavarian yodel -- Co-ca-che-lunk -- Dutch Company -- Forty-nine bottles -- Gaudeamus -- H 2 S O 4 -- Integer Vitae -- Jolly boating weather -- Lone fish ball -- My last cigar -- Noah's Ark -- On the chapel steps -- Over the banister -- The Pope -- Son of a Gambolier -- Tarpaulin jacket -- Upidee -- Vive L'Amour -- We stand by our classes.


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Title: U.W. songs :
a collection of songs of the University of Wisconsin /
Corp Author(s): University of Wisconsin.
Publication: Madison :; University of Wisconsin,
Edition: 2nd ed.
Year: 1909
Description: 122 p. of music ;; 27 cm.
Language: English
Music Type: Songs
Contents: All hail Alma Mater Wisconsin -- Alumni song -- Amici -- Badger life -- Back to the Hill -- Bingo -- Boating song -- The boy and the horse -- Bull dog -- The cardinal so bright -- Ching-a-ling -- Class song -- Co-ca-che-lunk -- Commencement song -- Crambambuli -- Crow song -- Dear Evelina, sweet Evelina -- Dear old Wisconsin -- Dear Varsity -- Drinking song -- Drink to me only with thine eyes -- The Dutch company -- Eaton boating song -- Fair Varsity -- Fill up the beaker -- Football toast -- Forsaken -- Forty-nine bottles -- The four dreamers --; Gaudeamus -- Good night -- Good night, beloved -- Hail Wisconsin -- Hark, I hear a voice -- Hot time -- If you want to be a Badger -- It's a way we have at Wisconsin -- Jingle bells -- Juanita -- The Jumblies -- Landlord fill the flowing bowl -- Last night -- Levee song -- Long may she live, Wisconsin fair! -- Maid of Athens -- Marching song -- Mary's goat -- Massa's in de cold ground -- Meerschaum pipe -- Mendota crew song -- Michael Roy -- The midshipmite -- My Bonnie -- Nellie was a lady -- Nut brown maiden -- Of thee, Wisconsin -- Old Black Joe -- Old folks at home -- Old Kentucky home -- O sch?ne Zeit -- Our dear old Alma Mater -- Over the banister --; Polly-wolly-doodle -- The Pope -- The quilting party -- Rig-a-jig -- Rosalie -- Soldiers farewell -- Songs to thee, Wisconsin -- Stars of the summer night -- Stein song -- Sweet and low -- Those vacant chairs -- To Alma Mater -- University hymn -- Upidee -- The Varsity -- Vive la Wisconsin -- Wisconsin -- Wisconsin days -- Wisconsin hymn -- Wisconsin jubilee -- Wisconsin marching song -- A Wisconsin song -- Wisconsin spirit -- Wisconsin toast (unison) -- Wisconsin toast (quartette) -- We'll cheer for old Wisconsin.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES)
HOW WE WENT DUCKING.
H. M. NORRIS.. A Journal of Outdoor Life, Travel, Nature Study, Shooting, Fishing, Yachting (1873-1930). Dec 22, 1894. Vol. VOL. XLIIL., Iss. No. 25.; p. 535 (1 page):
   ...the players singing the following words to the tune of "Forty-nine Blue Bottles a-Hanging on the Wall:"...


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
  News  Wednesday, October 27, 1897 Frederick, Maryland
...Tou know that snog about FORTY-NINE BLUE BOTTLES 5 It Is trills..

  Van Wert Times Bulletin  Saturday, May 22, 1971 Van Wert, Ohio
...The Funniest Face." The song "TEN GREEN BOTTLES' will feature Kip Boroff.....will be the poems for fall. The song "TEN Little Indians' will feature..


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 27 01:41:21 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 21:41:21 -0400
Subject: Grapple (Grape + apple juice); "Only in New York" by NY TIMES
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.214121.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GRAPPLE (GRAPE + APPLE JUICE)

GRAPPLE + GRAPE + APPLE + JUICE--512 Google hits, 22 Google Groups hits

   I was just at the Union Square greenmarket and had some "Grapple."  It's 80% white grape juice, 20% apple juice.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
COLLECTION: Drinks without alcohol
... From: 11sstein at gallua (Scott A. Steinbrink), @1988-9 GRAPPLE ===== Ingredients: ---- 1 cup grape juice 1 cup cider or apple juice 1 tsp lemon juice 1 ...
rec.food.drink - Sep 7, 1993 by Micaela Pantke - View Thread (1 article)
GRAPPLE
=======

Ingredients:
------------
1 cup    grape juice
1 cup    cider or apple juice
1 tsp    lemon juice
1/4 tsp  cinnamon

Instructions:
-------------
Place all ingredients in the blender jar - cover and whiz on medium
speed until well blended.  Pour in one tall, 2 medium or 3 small glasses
and drink up.


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Re: A Pawned Pond
... Both apple butter and apple jelly, as well as "grapple" (grape-apple) jelly are sitting ... a recipt for apple jelly that starts with frozen apple juice concentrate ...
alt.callahans - Jul 28, 1997 by LadyCheron - View Thread (61 articles)


(GOOGLE)
Apple Juice
... Grapple Apple Juice, Cinnamon, Lemon Juice, Grape Juice. Joe Magnolia's Beach
Bum Apple Juice, Banana Liqueur, Grain Alcohol, Pineapple Juice, Kool-Aid. ...
www.thevirtualbar.com/Ingredients/AppleJuice.html - 17k - Cached - Similar pages


(GOOGLE)
Grapple recipe
A delicious recipe for Grapple, with grape juice, apple cider, lemon
juice and cinnamon. Also lists similar drink recipes. Cocktails ...
www.drinksmixer.com/drink3944.html - 8k - Cached - Similar pages


(GOOGLE)
Albany, NY -- timesunion.com
... He is taste-testing a grape-apple flavored juice he's dubbed grapple
and a black currant-apple combination that has yet to be named. ...
www.timesunion.com/.../story.asp?storyID=245943& category=STATEFARE&BCCode=&newsdate=6/18/2004 - 26k - Cached - Similar pages


(GOOGLE)
Insufferably Delightful: The Grapple!!
... Anyway, this grapple thing - it's a grape-flavored apple! ... Fake-grape! ... Tasted mostly
like apple upon the first bite, but after the juices were released, they ...
www.wpi.edu/~elisab/MT/archives/000579.html - 11k - Cached - Similar pages


(PROQUEST NEWSPAPERS)
Frankenfruit tastes ``ucky"; [Final Edition]
Kristen Browning-Blas. Denver Post. Denver, Colo.: May 26, 2004. p. F.02
A perfectly good Fuji apple dunked in fake grape flavor, the Grapple aims to make heretofore disgusting apples palatable to kids. Our child taste-testers deemed the Kool-Aid-tasting fruits 'ucky.' Are Washington apple growers so desperate to increase sales they would flavor perfectly good fruits? Apparently so. The group has sullied 1.2 million fine Fujis as part of its mission 'to reverse the trend of diabetes and obesity in America,' says Get Fit Foods spokesman Blair McHaney. King Soopers has them $2.99 for 4.


(FACTIVA)
Mixing it up
Kathy Stephenson
1,246 words
16 June 2004
The Salt Lake Tribune
D1
English
Copyright (c) 2004 Bell & Howell Information and Learning Company. All rights reserved.

Tired of traditional apples? Bored with broccoli?

Don't go bananas. The next generation of produce is here.

Consider the pluot, a juicy stone fruit that was born when horticulturists crossed a plum with an apricot.

Stores sell broccolini, a mixture of broccoli and Chinese kale, with tender, skinny stems; and broccoflower, a yellowish mix of broccoli and cauliflower.

And don't forget the grapple (pronounced gray-ple) -- a Fuji apple, bathed in a natural Concord grape flavoring. It looks and tastes like an apple, but has a light grape smell and taste.

Whether it's our cars, our diet colas or our fruit, today's affluent society gets weary of the ordinary and is always demanding something new. So horticulturists and producers spend years creating new fruits and vegetables to give consumers more choices and to increase sales.

"Like everything else in the world we want choice," explained Bruce Barritt, an apple breeder with the Tree Fruit Research and Extension Center at Washington State University. "New types of fruit provide a unique eating experience."

Hybridization, of course, is an old process, whereby producers take the pollen from one plant and put it on the pistil of another plant, producing an entirely new variety. With fruits and vegetables, the process is the most successful when plants are from the same families.

For example, a decade ago America's apple choices were limited to red and golden delicious. By crossing different varieties, we now have Fuji, Braeburns and galas. These "new" varieties are now as common as their predecessors.

The process happens with more than just apples.

Years ago, someone crossed a casaba melon and a cantaloupe and created the green-skinned Crenshaw melon.

Grapefruits and tangerines were mixed to make tangelos and no one would enjoy Loganberry pies and jam if, back in 1880, James H. Logan had not accidentally crossed a blackberry with a raspberry.

While most people have never heard of a pluot, the fruit has been around for more than a decade, a trademark of Zaiger Genetics in Modesto, Calif.

The fruit, which is 70 percent plum and 30 percent apricot, is grown in parts of Washington and California. There are some 20 varieties -- often called Dinosaur Eggs -- available.

Salt Lake City's Liberty Heights Fresh is selling the dark purple flavorosa pluots, an early season variety with bright red flesh. They sell for $6.50 a pound.

"It's fun to turn people on to new and interesting things," said store produce manager Bryce Geyer, adding that later in the summer, Liberty Heights will be getting shipments of another plum-apricot hybrid called the plumcot.

There is a third sibling to come from the plum-apricot marriage called an aprium, which has more apricot characteristics, with a slight plum taste. It also is a Zaiger trademark.

Unlike a pluot, the grapple is not a hybrid but a twist on an old favorite, explains Blair McHaney, co-owner of Get Fit Foods, which markets the new fruit for the 96-year-old C&O Nursery in Wenatchee, Wash.

The nursery takes its extra-fancy Fuji apple and bathes it a natural Concord grape flavoring.

Through the process, the apple absorbs the grape "essence" without affecting the nutrient or calorie content, said McHaney. The fruit, which is sold in some Smith's and Fred Meyer stores in Utah, still tastes like an apple but with a light grape smell and taste. A package of four costs about $4. Now the supply is nearly gone and consumers likely will have to wait until fall for more.

Get Fit Foods is not worried that serious horticulturists may look at the grapple as a gimmick.

"Who cares," said McHaney, "if it gets people to eat more produce."

kathys at sltrib.com

Broccolini: A cross between broccoli and Chinese kale. It also is called baby broccoli or asparation. The buds resemble typical broccoli flowerets but the vegetable has skinny stems that are sweeter and more tender than a typical broccoli stalk. Use in place of broccoli in most recipes.

Grapple: An extra-fancy Fuji apple that has been bathed in a Concord grape flavoring. Fruit still tastes like an apple but it has a light grape smell and taste.

Pluot: This fruit is 70 percent plum and 30 percent apricot. It has a smooth skin and comes in about 20 varieties, including flavorosa (at left), an early-season variety with a bright red flesh. It has high sugar content, more than plums or apricots alone. Use in place of plums in most recipes.

Five hybrids we'd like to see

1. Pineanna (pineapple, banana) -- Easy-peeling, prickle-free tropical delight.

2. Canterberry (cantaloupe, strawberry) -- Tangy, bite-sized fruit good enough to inspire pilgrimages to the produce section.

3. Garnion (garlic, onion) -- Less chopping and no tears.

4. Tovacado (tomato, avocado) -- Mash for guacamole in a dash.

5. Rhuberry (rhubarb, strawberry) -- Now that's a pie!


(FACTIVA)
Barron's Mailbag: Of Grapes and Apples
171 words
10 April 1989
Barron's
English
(Copyright (c) 1989, Dow Jones & Co., Inc.)

To the Editor:

When the zanies begin to fool with the grape and apple -- two of my favorite foods (Up & Down Wall Street, March 27) -- they have gone beyond the pale.

Long a quaffer of the Concord's juices and a muncher of the mighty MacIntosh, I refuse to be intimidated. The poisoners of the grapes have incurred my wrath, the knockers of the apple have sliced me to the core.

Without the wine from the vine, my life would never have jelled. Without the seedless, my existence would be needless. Without the juice, I would have Welched on all my bets.

But ah! -- the apple -- so round and rosy red or grassy green, so firm and fully packed.

While the grapefuit remains longer in the public eye, and has more apeel, while the orange possesses navel superiority, nevertheless, the grape/apple combo, known in professional wrestling as the grapple, has given us a host of fruitful generations.

Harold J. Flinn

Madison, Tenn.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Topics of The Times
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 11, 1937. p. 20 (1 page):
   We recall a pre-war jingle which thus describes the vermiform appendix: "In the midst of your intestines, their interstices infesting, is a little alley dark and blind as night.  With a seed of grape or apple it is prone to stop and grapple.  As a pocket it is simply out of sight."

---------------------------------------------------------------
_ONLY IN NEW YORK_
   _400 Remarkable Answers to Intriguing Questions About New York City_
   _From the Reporters of the acclaimed weekly FYI column in The New York Times_
New York: St. Martin's Griffin
2004

   This book was just published this month.
   Page 109 answers "in like Flynn" and credits Edward J. Flynn.  Although my work on "in like Flynn" is recognized everywhere--I'm even named in Google Answers on this!--there's no mention here.
   Page 143 answers "honky tonk" and credits William Tonk and his pianos.  Sam Clements wrote the FYI guy about this directly and told him that he's wrong.  I mentioned the column here.  The FYI column is reprinted in the book, without any change at all.
   Page 146 answers "Tin Pan Alley."  "Although etymologists have found the expression used as early as 1902,..."  That information was from The Straight Dope.  And it didn't come from "etymologists."  It came from me.  Barry Popik.
   But the most lasting impression of the book is the cover and the title of it.
   ONLY IN NEW YORK.  That's the catchphrase of Cindy Adams, who writes for the New York Post.  She trademarked it.  However, I've posted here that "Only in New York" was used at least 50 years ago.
   On the ONLY IN NEW YORK book's cover is a Big Apple.
   "Big Apple"--the most frequently asked question about New York--is not in the book and has never been answered by FYI.
   Eight years ago, FYI briefly mentioned my work in connection to the New York Public Library's Telephone Answer Service.  But the text of the stablehands' speech, as given by John J. Ftiz Gerald in the 1920s, has still, incredibly, never made The New York Times.
   Yep, that's what life is like.  Only about 24 more free hours until another full week of parking tickets.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 27 03:25:59 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 23:25:59 -0400
Subject: Stir Frying; Chawan Mushi; Torrijas & Migas (1955)
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.232559.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   HOW TO EAT AND DRINK IN CHINESE is now selling for $285 a copy on Amazon!
   I've been going through CHEF D'OEUVRE.  Is the author of the following article the same Chao who wrote the above book (mentioned recently in The New York Times)?


   Number 3 Autumn 1955, CHEF D'OEUVRE, "The Oriental Touch" article series
Wang Chao
_CONFUCIUS KNEW BEST_
Pg. 42:  Su Tungp'o pork and Kiang bean-curd are named after writers.
Pg. 43:  The _Canton_ School...The _Fukien_ School...
   The _Shantung_ School is notable for having hardly any Chow dishes.  Like Hunan, it specializes, favouring dishes prepared with "wine-stock," "soft-frying" dishes, grilled duck (the famous "Peking duck") and swan's liver cooked in wine stock.
   The _Szechuen_ School is noted for hot-tasting dishes; also for ham, fungus dishes, vegetables cooked with chicken fat, and chicken meat wrapped in paper and fried.  It tends to oiliness.
   The _Kiangsu_ and _Yang Chow_ School is not (Pg. 44-ed.) as definite a school as the others, but has certain specialties: Chow shrimps, "Lion's head" (a meat ball), Chow eel, thinly sliced, Guann Shi (sliced bean-curd prepared with tasty broth), ham, crab, and Hung Shau fish (lightly fried, then cooked in a rich sauce).
    THE general methods of cooking used are in line with Western techniques: grilling, braising, steaming, deep-frying, etc.  However, one method had a character of its own and occupies a position of importance in China: Chow, which means "low-oil-quick-stir frying."


Number 2 Summer 1955, CHEF D'OEUVRE, "The Oriental Touch" article series
Pg. 64:  A light dish for ladies also features chicken: _chawanmushi_, steamed egg custard.  The chicken is covered with seasonal vegetables--in spring, lily bulbs and young peas in the pod, in autumn, mushrooms, chestnuts, trefoil, and gingko nuts--and an egg custard.


   Spring Number 1955, CHEF D'OEUVRE, "The Oriental Touch" article series
Pg. 47:  _Chupatties_, _papars_, _puries_ or _luchies_ are sent with some curries, but a guest may ask for these according to his fancy. (...)
   _Foogaths_ or _Bajees_ are a combination of vegetables fried with curry powder and are (pg. 48--ed.) very popular.
Pg. 48:  TANDUR cooking is another specialty.  The edibles are cooked in ovens made of bricks, or stone and clay, called Tandura.  Only cooks who specialize in this work are employed.
   Other well-known curries are _Vindaloos_ (pork and duck, etc., with a proportion of vinegar); and _Frithath_ curry, made in the same way--the hottest of curries.
   Parsee cooking is another specialty where large amounts of spices and coriander are used.
   _Kofta_, vegetables and egg curries, all appear on the menus, beside the numerous _Kabobs_ and _Parathas_ which are served with a garnishing of sliced raw onions, cucumbers, tomatoes and raw green chillies.


   Spring Number 1955, CHEF D'OEUVRE, pg. 66:
_MONKEY GLAND_
(The revised OED has 1968 for "monkey gland steak."  I mistaken thought the date was much earlier and didn't copy the full page--ed.)


   Spring Number 1955, CHEF D'OEUVRE, pg. 33:
_TORRIJAS_
   Take a sandwich loaf (preferably a small one) and cut several half-inch slices.  Soak the slices in cold milk and drain thoroughly.  Roll them in flour and beaten egg-yolk and fry golden brown on both sides in olive oil.  Drain well.  Make a syrup (beforehand if possible: it should be cool) as follows: dissolve 1/2 lb. sugar in 1 cup water over heat.  Flavour with a little cinnamon and lemon rind.  Boil for five minutes, cool and add a glass of white wine or sherry.  Pour this cool syrup over the hot Torrijas and serve.
Pg. 35:
_MIGAS_
   Dice a white loaf (crust and crumb) in half-inch cubes--the Spanish do not use a knife, but tear the bread.  Sprinkle the pieces with cold water and salt and leave in a damp cloth overnight.
   Allow 8 tbs. olive oil to each pound of bread.  Fry the pieces in this oil, adding garlic if you wish, until golden-brown.  Take off heat and cover for five minutes.
   The Migas can be served in various ways: with poached or fried eggs, slices of sausage, or sprinkled with paprika.  For sweeter tastes, they are served with chocolate or milky coffee.  A special way is called Migas Canas (white crumbs).  While frying, jam is poured over the Migas.  When the pan is taken off the fire, 1 pint of milk is added.  The Migas are eaten out of the pan--or else the milk and Migas are served separately, if you have formal guests!


TORRIJAS--721 English Google hits
CHAWAN MUSHI--1,860 Google hits, 86 Google Groups hits
(Both are not in OED)


(GOOGLE)
Members at The Guild of Food Writers
December 1999. Torrijas by Sarah Jane Evans. ... In fact Torrijas are simply a variation
of what is known in French as Pain Perdu, and in English as Eggy Bread. ...
www.gfw.co.uk/recipearchive/recipe1299.html - 17k - Jun 24, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
$25 and Under
Eric Asimov. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 29, 1994. p. C21 (1 page):
   As with everything else at El Cid, dessert is not to be missed.  Torrijas ($3.75), the specialty of the house, is a dish worthy of the designation.  It is simply a slice of bread soaked in egg, wine, cinnamon, citrus juice, honey and sugar and grilled in butter.  It sounds like french toast but tastes like a perfectly caramelized tarte Tatin.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Jun 27 03:59:17 2004
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 23:59:17 -0400
Subject: Stir Frying; Chawan Mushi; Torrijas & Migas (1955)
In-Reply-To: <38E1D88B.2817F250.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.JUN.2004.235917.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>    HOW TO EAT AND DRINK IN CHINESE is now selling for $285 a copy on Amazon!
>    I've been going through CHEF D'OEUVRE.  Is the author of the
>following article the same Chao who wrote the above book (mentioned
>recently in The New York Times)?
>

No, a different Chao.  And probably no relation to Buwei and Yuen Ren
Chao--it's not an uncommon name.

ciao,
larry

>    Number 3 Autumn 1955, CHEF D'OEUVRE, "The Oriental Touch" article series
>Wang Chao


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 27 08:27:18 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 04:27:18 EDT
Subject: "Appetizing Store" (1914) or "Appy"
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.042718.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   FYI--that favorite section of the SUNDAY NEW YORK TIMES--has its first
lead question about the "appetizing store."  It's a little difficult for me to
check right now, but these stores did indeed dot the Lower East Side.  They
disappeared into the "appetizing sections" of supermarkets.
   FYI laments the disappearing "appetizing store," but evidently fails to
see that "gourmet" food stores are popping up all over.  There's no Zabar's?
There's no Eli's?  FYI has never been to the Whole Foods stores in Chelsea or in
the new Time Warner Center?
   My grandfather sold fruits; my late uncle worked in appetizing at Food
Fair.  He was one most appy fella.
   The dictionary coverage of "appetizing" and "appy" is, as usual, abysmal.


(NEW YORK TIMES)
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/27/nyregion/thecity/27fyi.html
    F.Y.I.
Appetizing Indeed
By MICHAEL POLLAK

Published: June 27, 2004

Q.  The "appetizing store," selling Nova Scotia salmon, lox, sturgeon,
whitefish, sable, bagels, bialys and the like, is a vanishing New York phenomenon.
The term does not appear to exist outside New York, although obviously these
products do. Where does this term come from?

A. It does seem to have a New York flavor, according to the owner of Russ &
Daughters, one of the most famous stores of this kind that survives. This
smoked-fish emporium at 179 East Houston Street (between Orchard and Allen Streets)
was opened by Joel Russ in 1914 as "Russ's Cut Rate Appetizers."

Mark Russ Federman, present owner of the store and son of Joel Russ's
daughter Anne, said he recently discussed the question of the name with his mother
and one of his aunts. The answer, he said, lies in the Jewish dietary laws,
under which meat and dairy products may not be eaten or sold together. Fish and
certain dairy products are sold together, like lox and cream cheese.

So two types of food stores sprang up. Stores that sold pickled, cured and
smoked meats were known as delicatessens. Another name was needed for stores
that sold fish and dairy products. Someone (Russ's daughters do not know who)
decided on "appetizing" as the alternative.

"I think 'appetizing' is fairly indigenous and fairly local to New York," Mr.
Federman said. Once, he said, there were 30 appetizing stores on the Lower
East Side alone.



(GOOGLE)
> ShopRite Career Opportunities
> ... Experience. Must have experience in a supermarket or related Appy or
Deli Department and a thorough understanding of Appy/Deli products. ...
www.shoprite.com/careers/descriptions.asp?id=1729 - 4k - Cached - Similar
pages
[ More results from www.shoprite.com ]


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
Diminutives
... with the Lower East Side, New York, or yore, here are some more: A woman
shopping
in an "appy" (for the whitebread eaters, an appy is an "appetizing store", a
...
rec.humor.jewish - Dec 13, 1998 by Leon - View Thread (6 articles)


(OED)
Insulated, _ppl. a._
 1964 W. MARKFIELD To Early Grave (1965) x. 176 An appetizing store,
where..you can take home their potato salad in an insulated bag.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("appy")
Metropolitan Diary
Ron Alexander. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 30,
1995. p. C2 (1 page):
   I am at the "appetizing" counter of the local suburban supermarket, having
ordered a half-pound of Nova. (...)
   ...I approached the formidable Waldbaum's appetizing counter for the very
first time.  (...)
   I must admit that from that day forward I've been slightly intimdated when
taking my ticket at the appy counter, never knowing whether I'll get an order
of embarrassment and humility with my Nova.
   JACQUELINE FRANK


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("appetizing/appetizer store")
TO-DAY'S AUCTION SALES.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 7, 1914. p. 18 (1
page) :
Lenox Appetizing Store, 154 Lenox Ave.

Never Too Old to Spell
By BERTRAM REINITZ.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May
24, 1925. p. XX2 (1 page) :
   It was from old Peretz Chalken, retired from his appetizer store, that she
learned of a settlement house two blocks downtown from her home where age and
education got together for a two-hour session three times a week.


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 27 08:36:22 2004
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 04:36:22 EDT
Subject: gonna (was: double a-prefixing?)
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.043622.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 6/25/2004 1:18:00 PM Central Standard Time,
flanigan at OHIO.EDU writes:
It's not really so weird, and it's not quite future.  If you "formalize"
it, it's "I must have been going to write on it" = planning to, therefore
present perfect progressive?  But even if it's future gonna, think of "I'm
a-gonna do it"--not weird at all.
Right.  "I'm a-gonna do it" is totally not weird at all.  But still, "I musta
been a-gonna" strikes me with the big side of the *way odd* stick.  But the
more I think about it, the less I can pinpoint the weirdness.  At first I
thought it was the a-prefix with "gonna".  Then I thought it was just the rhythm
that it created.  But now I'm thinking that it's the "gonna" itself.  Something
about contractions crossing some kind of barrier is lurking in the back of my
mind.  Were I a better syntax student, I could probably figure out why, but
this *is* summer vacation.

On a separate, but mildly related, tangent, does anyone know anything about
the "gonna to" phenomena?  ex. "I'm gonna to do it.".  I searched the archives
with no luck.

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 27 10:25:57 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 06:25:57 EDT
Subject: "Limerick" and The Granta (1897)
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.062557.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   OED has "limerick" from only 1896.  Could it have started in the Cambridge
University publication, THE GRANTA?  Unfortunately, the NYPL does not have
these early years of it.


(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM)
  Bristol Times And Mirror  Tuesday, November 09, 1897 Bristol,
Gloucestershire
...47 votes Cambridge has a weakness for LIMERICKS. Tlie blowing, emanating
from..
Pg. 7, col. 8:
   Cambridge has a weakness for Limericks.  The following, emanating from
"The Granta," is going the round of the College rooms with attendant applause:--
      There once was a Marquis of Magdalene,
      Who was known as the idle young dagdelene.
         When he got up to dress
         It was never much less
      Than two hours that he wasted in dagdelene.
The point of the joke of course hangs on the fact that "Magdalene" is
pronounced "Maudlin" when the college is referred to.


(GOOGLE)
http://www.nonsenselit.org/Lear/limerick/deex.html
It is accepted today by virtually all limerick scholars that, short of a
spectacular revelation, we will never know the origins of the use of the word
Limerick to describe the five line verse. For a century, limerick enthusiasts have
groped and conjectured without any real success. The verses were known as
nonsense verses one day -- and the next, as limericks. It was as simple as that.

Bill Backe-Hansen, in a marvelous article ("The Origin of the Limerick as we
Know it,'' The Pentatette, September 1987) traces the serious and sometimes
outlandish theories.

I will attempt to flesh out that transition from nonsense verse to limerick
as best I can, not unlike the sculptor turned anthropologist who daubs clay on
some prehistoric fossilized skull to give us a glimpse at our hominid
ancestor.

The clues are few and far between:

An exchange of letters between Ambrose Beardsley and Leonard Smithers in 1896
and 1897 shows their familiarity with the word limerick. Beardsley's 1896
bawdy limerick (Ecstasy of St. Rose of Lima), although not identified as a
limerick, is the first complete limerick by a person who knew and used the term.

In October 1898 Cambridge University students knew the word and used it to
refer to two verses in The Cantab.
(WHAT ABOUT _THE GRANTA_?  IF IT'S THERE IN 1897 AND 1898, CAN'T WE DO
BETTER????--ed.)

An exchange of comments appeared in Notes and Queries in November and
December 1898 with respect to the connection between the word and the verse. James A.
H. Murray, founding editor of the Oxford English Dictionary, associated the
word limerick strictly with ``indecent nonsense verse.'' He went on to speak of
Ireland and the long-standing custom there of drinking and reciting.

Theories of French songs and the Limerick Brigade notwithstanding, my theory
goes something like this:

Lear's books of nonsense verse were known to everyone in the English speaking
world by the end of the nineteenth century. A number of wags had already
begun turning out bawdy verses (some based on Lear's verses) that we would
recognize today as limericks and probably do. Following Lear's example, the bawdy
verses were geographically oriented: The old man from _____; The lady from
______.

Pub habituals incorporated these bawdy nonsense verses into their Saturday
night ritual. A participant would sing a verse associated with a specific town,
probably working down the coast or working through the alphabet. If you failed
to meet your associates expectations it was chug-a-lug. Unrhymable Limerick
could always be counted on for a spectacular failure -- only salvageable by a
really gross verse. And so the bawdy nonsense verses came to be called
Limericks.

No other town or city was as troublesome as Limerick, not Aberystwth, not
East Wubley, not Shrovetide, not Greenwich.

Well into this century, the name was always capitalized. It is still spoken
with reverence at many gatherings, especially where strange colored liquid is
consumed. Oddly enough, university students are still singing limericks and
still chug-a-lugging.

Can any of this be proved? Unfortunately, no. Is it plausible? Definitely.
Will this theory survive? Until a better one comes along.

Ockam's razor tells us that the simplest of competing theories is preferable
and that an explanation should first be attempted in terms of what is already
known.

This theory explains why the Limerick/verse association was so slow to appear
in Victorian print (and then without an appreciation for its meaning or
usage), how it spread so quickly before it surfaced, and why it came to be
mistakenly connected with Irish origins.

(From The Pentatette, the Newsletter of the Limerick Special Interest Group,
XIII.1, October 1993.)


From ron.silliman at VERIZON.NET  Sun Jun 27 14:18:42 2004
From: ron.silliman at VERIZON.NET (Ron)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 10:18:42 -0400
Subject: "beatnik"--coined by Herb Caen?
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.101842.0400.>

The Herb Caen I knew certainly took credit for this -- and Sputnik was
definitely the source of the appended suffix.

Ron Silliman

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas G. Wilson [mailto:douglas at NB.NET]
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 2:00 AM
Subject: Re: "beatnik"--coined by Herb Caen?

>That claim, made tonight on Jeopardy, is supported by various web
>sites (the idea being that the San Francisco Chronicle columnist came
>up with the term in a 1958 column, of course as a blend of "beat
>(generation)" and "sputnik"), but does not appear in the OED entry
>for the word.  The RHHDAS does endorse the Herb Caen coinage, though.
>Are any antedates available, or is this an rare actual instance of a
>verifiable and attested coinage?

I can't refute the claim.

I suppose the basis for the coinage is "beat" + "-nik", with the
Russian/Yiddish suffix "-nik" possibly applied by analogy with the
already
available "nudnik", which was itself popularized ca. 1957 by its
association with "sputnik" IIRC. Just my naive notion.

-- Doug Wilson


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 27 15:34:28 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 08:34:28 -0700
Subject: gonna (was: double a-prefixing?)
In-Reply-To: <da.df89644.2e0fe106@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.083428.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 27, 2004, at 1:36 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote:

> ...On a separate, but mildly related, tangent, does anyone know
> anything about
> the "gonna to" phenomena?  ex. "I'm gonna to do it.".  I searched the
> archives
> with no luck.

hmmm..  i hadn't been aware of this, but there are piles of google hits
on "gonna to", many of them of the sort doug cites.  mostly from song
lyrics, apparently, but that's not so surprising, since most people
don't represent casual speech in their own writing, while transcribers
of lyrics often try to capture such features.

still, you could worry about the competence of the transcribers.
here's the webfitz.com version of the lyrics for the first few verses
of the ames brothers' version of the standard "Undecided" (this is
copied and pasted in, not re-typed):

You say yes
Then it's no
You say you'll stay
Then you go
Your undecided now
So what are you going to do

Fisrt you say you do and then you don't
And then you say you will and then you won't
Your undecided now
So what are you gonna to do

Now you want to play
And then it's no
And when you say you'll stay
That's when you go
Your undecided now
So what are you gonna to do

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), wanting to *hear* this performance,
since it's possible that the transcription is an orthographic blending
of <gonna> and <going to> -- but i assume doug has examples from speech


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Jun 27 17:18:57 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:18:57 -0400
Subject: Incest as a verb (was "fuck" in Wash Post)
In-Reply-To: <20040626124643.1375.qmail@web41508.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.131857.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, Jun 26, 2004 at 05:46:43AM -0700, Margaret Lee wrote:
> Yesterday on the Dr. Phil show, a female
> guest, 50-ish, said, "I was incested by two men in my
> family when I was a child."  (The guest (Anne) was
> discussing her addiction to sex.) I've never
> heard  'incest' used  as a verb.  Is anyone familiar
> with this usage?

We have a scattering of examples of this going back to the
mid-1980s. A recent sample:

2003 D. GAINES Misfit's Manifesto iv. 67 Miriam's father,
Moses (Betty's grandfather), had incested all four of his own
daughters.

I haven't searched for it, though. But it's definitely in
use.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Sun Jun 27 18:25:58 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:25:58 -0400
Subject: Bottles on the wall
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.142558.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The British version of the song is:

Ten green bottles, hangin' on the wall
Ten green bottles, hangin' on the wall
And if one green bottle should accident'ly fall
There'd be nine green bottles hangin' on the wall.

At least, I assume it's pan-British, since it's the only version of the song I
ever heard growing up.  Maybe it would be more honest to describe it as the
'English' version.

Anyway, the numbers of bottles can be altered to almost anything depending on
how long you want your song to be, but the default version is ten, and there's
never any beer involved.

The tune is clearly different from the tune of the American version, since the
metre is different, but it's actually very similar in style.  It's also used in
the same contexts:  primarily camp-fire singing, but also in other situations
where a lot of people are together with limited other stimuli and have to amuse
themselves, like on school 'bus trips.

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Sun Jun 27 18:35:02 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:35:02 -0400
Subject: Point-three (of a) percent
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.143502.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As renditions of '.3%' or '0.3%', both 'point-three of a percent' and the bare
'point-three percent' sound fine to my Standard Southern British ear.

Figures below one bring up something else that still looks strange to me after a
year living in the States, though (though it isn't necessarily connected to how
the figure is rendered in speech, clearly).  That is that I still can't write
'.3%' and think it looks normal;  it has to be '0.3%', though I can see the
logic of omitting the '0' (it makes tables of figures below one easier to
interpret, for one thing).

Correspondingly, I can say 'Nought point three (of a) percent' and it sounds
fine, though I think it is slightly more usual (for me, at least) to omit the
'nought' in speech.  Maybe that's because I often have to say figures below
one, as anyone who ever deals with stats does, and the 'nought' is unnecessary
to convey the meaning if you're going to say the 'point' anyway.

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 27 19:25:20 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 12:25:20 -0700
Subject: the f-word
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.122520.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

some reflections on "fuck" occasioned by our vice-president's
deployment of the word in public...

i understand that our attitudes about "indecent" vocabulary don't make
a lot of sense.  it's widely held that a small number of words are
intrinsically harmful to children; people seem to think that this
either so self-evidently true as not to need defense or demonstration,
or else too passionately held to allow for challenge (if you maintain
that children know these words and aren't particularly affected by
them, you risk being labeled as immoral, indecent, perverted yourself).
  so the treatment of l'affaire cheney in the media is hilariously
constrained as reporters try to convey what was said without clearly
alluding to the f-word, even by "the f-word" or "f**k" or some
euphemism; instead, we are merely told that cheney used an obscenity or
that he told leahy to do something that leahy wasn't able to do.

not very long ago, the FCC had an almost rational position on "fuck".
the first time around, bono was not censured for using the adverbial
epithet "fuckin'".  though no one laid the reasoning out (that would
have required using the word and discussing its meanings), this
position could be defended on the grounds that there are two different
words "fuck": the coital verb (and related noun), which is censurable
on two grounds, its meaning and its register, and the mere expletive
(noun, verb, or adverb in "-in'"), which is only registrally
restricted.  it might make some sense to restrict the first but not the
second (in the appropriate context).

something like this seems to have been done for "piss".  non-excretory
"piss", as in the american idiom "piss off" 'anger' (or the british
idiom "piss off" 'depart' or several other uses), appears with some
frequency on television shows, without warnings about "strong
language", even in shows like Buffy the Vampire Slayer.  excretory
"piss" definitely counts as a word needing a "strong language" warning,
if it can be aired at all.

but non-excretory "piss" seems to be a small exception, and a fairly
recent one.  there's an implicit hierarchy of indecency for obscenities
(no one really defends or explains this; it's just something everyone's
supposed to know), and "piss" is towards the lower end, maybe a bit
above expletive or figurative "balls" and "ass" (as in "get your ass
over here" and "dumb-ass(ed) idea"), definitely below "shit", which
even in its purely expletive uses ("oh, shit! the damn thing broke!")
is problematic, and way below "asshole" and "fuck".

in any case, in the second round the FCC reversed itself and went for
the position that "fuck" is bad, no matter what; the word itself is
indecent, and the government can levy stiff fines on you for using it
in public.  note the implicit assumption that there is a *single word*
"fuck" here (contrary to what i said above).

unfortunately, censors can appeal to the dictionaries on this point.
as i have complained in other contexts, dictionaries have entries that
are etymologically organized, with almost complete disregard for the
consequences of linguistic change, even linguistic change that happened
hundreds of years ago.  the preposition "to" and the infinitive marker
"to" are in a single entry; they are "the same word".  ditto
exclamatory "boy" and "boy" 'male child'.  ditto coital "fuck" and
expletive "fuck".  from a synchronic point of view, none of these
should be treated as a single lexical item.

(as a quick look at jesse sheidlower's The F-Word will confirm, there
are many different expletives here: the bare-noun exclamation "fuck!",
the negative-polarity noun "fuck" of "give a fuck", the wh-extender
noun "fuck" of "what the fuck?", the deprecatory nouns
"(mother)fucker", the verb of exclamatory "fuck it!", the adverb
"fuckin'".  these have different syntax, different semantics and
pragmatics, and even different euphemistic substitutes: for many
speakers, "fudge" is available only for the bare-noun exclamation,
"freak" only in adverb "freakin'" for "fuckin''", "frig" for
verbal/adverbial "fuck", including the coital verb, etc.  it's also
true that there are occurrences of "fuck" that are not easily
classifiable as expletive or coital -- in particular, "fuck you!" and
the veepish "(go) fuck yourself!".)

so now the u.s. censors are going on an entirely superficial criterion
for indecency: an utterance of /f^k/, a glimpse of a nipple.  i'd laugh
if it weren't so serious.  when KRON-TV broadcast the Bay to Breakers
race back in may, and when it broadcasts Gay Pride today (i'm watching
it as i type, having missed my chance to march with mabel teng's
contingent), the station has to avoid transmitting images of naughty
bits, in a way it never had to before.  not only are female breasts
off-limits, but apparently buttocks (of any sex or gender) are out too,
and the reporters on the street have to go through elaborate
precautions to prevent the cameras from catching anything that could
subject them to a heavy fine.  "no, no, don't pan to the left!" they
cry, worrying about what might be shown on bay area tv.  san francisco
is a tolerant city, and at these public events even full frontal
nudity, even in front of children, is ok (there's apparently a special
dispensation for spectacles) -- so long as it doesn't get shown on tv.

but now for something a little bit different...

i've been wondering what would happen if, say, sir paul mccartney was
caught on tape in a moment of astonishment, dismay, or pain, saying
"fook!", that is /fUk/.  now, for american speakers, this is "a
differerent word" from "fuck", as different as "book" from "buck" or
"look" from "luck".  so is this ok, not actionable?  (help me here,
bethany.)  or does sir paul's *intention* to say "the same word as"
american english "fuck" rule here?

if intention is the key thing, then we're in trouble with all those
instances of ostentatious avoidance: the spelling <f**k>, "the f-word",
"fudge/freak/frig/etc.", "Muck Fichigan" and "Buck Fush", where the
intention is absolutely clear.

my guess is that sir paul would (now) be in trouble on the american
airwaves.  i know for sure that "Muck Fichigan" didn't get you in
trouble in ohio, in a time when "Fuck Michigan" would have landed you
in court.  how are these two cases distinguished?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Jun 27 19:31:38 2004
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 15:31:38 EDT
Subject: Peanut Butter Sandwich (January 1896); Peanut Politics (April
 1887)
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.153138.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  "Peanut butter" is often given as being "discovered" or "popularized" at 
the 1904 World's Fair.  BEYOND THE ICE CREAM CONE: THE WHOLE SCOOP ON FOOD AT 
THE 1904 WORLD'S FAIR (2004) doesn't have much to say, except that it's not 
true.  The book is so bad that it never cites PEANUTS (2002) by Andrew F. Smith.
   Smith gives May 1896 (GOOD HOUSEKEEPING) for the first "peanut 
sandwiches," but we can take that back to at least January 1896, with a hint that it had 
come into vogue in the fall of 1895.
   The July 1897 CHICAGO TRIBUNE "peanut butter" citation here is of 
interest.
   Smith gives 1925 for "peanut brittle" (Pg. 156), but we can take that back 
to at least 1892.
  Smith mentions on page 31: "This unnamed physician reportedly gave the 
recipe to George A. Bayles, who, it was claimed, was the first to manufacture 
peanut butter."  His name was Bayle--not Bayles--and Bayle's Peanut Butter first 
shows up on the databases in the 1910s.
   Lastly, I'll nail down "peanut politics."
   I can do more, but I've got other things to do today.
  
  
(IED)
peanut butter
1903 Harper's Mag. Oct. 981 Four sandwiches... Two of wholewheat bread with 
peanut butter. 1926-7 Army & Navy Stores Catal. 2/2 Peanut Butter jarseach 1/-. 
1974 ?R. B. DOMINIC? Epitaph for Lobbyist xiii. 113 A carnival with peanut 
butter fudge made by the Soroptimists. 1977 Time 14 Mar. 42/2, I grew up on 
peanut butter sandwiches.
  
  
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("peanut butter")
    1.  FOR A TRUST IN PEANUTS; NEWPORT NEWS COMBINE CORNERS THE "GOOBER" 
MARKET. Has So Far Manipulated a Jump of One Cent A Pound and Menaced Dealers 
Expect to See It Three Before the End--Visible Stocks and Their 
Localities--Effect on Venders and Confectioners and Their Customers--Importance of the Crop. 
Effect on Retail Trade. Economic Uses for Peanuts. 
Chicago Daily. Jul 2, 1897. p. 10 (1 page):
   Ex-Senator Hill of New York has been termed a "peanut politician," to 
typify some of his methods.  That use of the peanut to illustrate little things, 
is a great constructive libel.
   Peanuts are no little thing.  Before the war "goober nuts" were thought 
nothing of in Virginia, the Carolinas, and Tennessee, the States to which they 
are indigenous.  Now their cultivation afffords employment to thousands of 
people.  The value of the crop of the four States at three cents a pound, which it 
may command at first hands, approximates $3,000,000.  Improved methods of 
cultivation have been introduced, ingenious machinery for cleaning and handling 
devised, and a trade worked up which includes a large section of the globe.
      _Economic Uses for Peanuts._
   The active brains of American inventors have found new economic uses for 
the peanut.  A peanut butter, first designed for invalids, but now sold with 
other food products, is made simply by crushing the nuts into a paste and adding 
water.  Sales of this article is increasing above that of dairy butter.
   Several European governments have placed in the list of rations for their 
armies in the field a nourishing soup made mostly of peanuts.  They use the 
American and African nut for the purpose.
     
    2.  Toothsome Sandwiches of Peanuts.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 3, 1897. p. 24 (1 
page)    
>From the Ladies' Home Journal.
(...)  Or you may buy for these a peanut butter.
     
    3.  BUSINESS.; FINANCIAL AND COMMERCIAL COMMERCIAL. THE FLORIDA ORANGE 
CROP. GENERAL BUSINESS TOPICS. 
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 26, 1897. p. 
12 (1 page) 
     
    4.  Stock Quote 1 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Dec 1, 1898. p. 
12 (1 page) 
     
    5.  THE SANDWICH TREE.; A CHARMING NOVELTY FOR SPRING AND SUMMER PARTIES. 

MILLICENT ARROWPOINT. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, 
Calif.: Mar 19, 1899. p. 22 (1 page) 
     
    6.  THE DAIRY.; Peanut Butter. Butter From Alfalfa. 
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 19, 1899. p. 
13 (1 page)  
    
    
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("peanut sandwich")
    1.  WOMAN ABOUT TOWN.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 2, 1896. p. 17 (1 
page) :HAVE you eaten of the very latest dish?  I say latest in every sense of the 
word, for it's a dish that goes with the midnight Welsh rabbit, and is the 
newest and best sort of a sandwich.  You take fresh bread and perfect butter.  
Then you have some fresh roasted peanuts--it's the fad to roast them 
yourself--ground fine in a coffee mill.  Next yopu mix the ground nuts into a paste with 
a little sherry or old port, spread them on the bread and there you have the 
sandwich everybody is eating.  You may substitute mayonnaise for sherry, or 
add a drop of almond essence, but a peanut sandwich you must have if you are to 
follow the fashion set, they say, by the wife if a Cabinet member.   
    
    2.  Inexpensive Decorations of Green.
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Feb 15, 1896. p. 16 (1 
page):
      _Recipe for Peanut Sandwiches._
   The latest addition to the 5 o'clock tea table is peanut sandwiches.  Do 
not roll the nut meats, but pound them in a mortar with a little salt until 
they are very fine.  Spread bread, that has been cut very thin, with butter, and 
then with the nut paste.  Place two pieces together and cut the sandwich round 
or in a triangle.
    
    3.  Toothsome Sandwiches of Peanuts.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Oct 3, 1897. p. 24 (1 
page)    
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("peanut sandwich")
   Daily Northwestern   Saturday, January 11, 1896 Oshkosh, Wisconsin   
...duringher absence. Although the PEANUT SANDWICH was a last 
winter's.....strips or triangles of bread. Another SANDWICH much in vogue, to be served..
Pg. 5, col. 3:
   Although the peanut sandwich was a last winter's debutante, its popularity 
shows no signs of waning.  To make it as it should be, remove the shells and 
skins from freshly roasted peanuts.  Chop very fine, mix with a little 
Mayonnaise dressing and spread between thin strips or triangles of bread. 
    
   Daily Northwestern   Saturday, January 25, 1896 Oshkosh, Wisconsin   
...One gown is of royal blue velvet, The PEANUT SANDWICH is often a welcome j 
a.....gold brocade, while the colly mask-1 PEANUT meats. Make into aj jar 
arui..  
  
    
   Perry Bulletin   Thursday, March 12, 1896 Perry, Iowa    
...addition to the 5 o'clock tea table is PEANUT SANDWICHES. Do not roll the 
nut.....Place two pieces together and cut tho SANDWICHES round or in a 
triangle. It..
    
   Daily Northwestern   Friday, June 05, 1896 Oshkosh, Wisconsin    
...tableshould bnvf salted PEANUTs and PEANUT SANDWICHES on Us menu, and 
should.....brilliancy. New York Times. A Permit A PEANUT party is sreat fun for 
children.. 
    
     
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("peanut brittle")
Other 19 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 2, 1892. p. 
16 (1 page) :
      _A Wonderful Increase._
   The trade in our line of home-made candies has increased within the last 
two or three weeks so greatly that we are compelled to enlarge and put another 
candy maker to work.  We make a line of nut candies, taffies, etc., which we 
sell at 25 cents per pound, which have become very popular, and we are selling 
large quantities of them.  We are going to introduce a new line of butter 
cups, peanut brittle, New England peanut, honeycomb, honey taffy, etc., that will 
be entirely new here, and from which we expect large sales.  Keep your eye on 
us, as we are going to lead in the candy business this season.  T. A. Gardner, 
manager.  "The Keystone," 112 N. Spring street.
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("peanut brittle")
 Middletown Daily Press     Monday, February 06, 1893 Middletown, New York      

...of 3 OB IS North St. aad 8 King St., PEANUT BRITTLE Good the more you 
eat..    
    
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("Bayle" and "peanut butter")
   Chronicle Telegram   Wednesday, March 28, 1990 Elyria, Ohio  
...the spread, for 6 cents a pound. BAYLE PEANUT BUTTER cans from the 1910s 
bear.....surgeon who patented the first PEANUT BUTTER grinder. Kellogg made 
PEANUT..    
      
 Daily Review   Sunday, April 12, 1914 Decatur, Illinois    
...Colonial Salt. 1 Jar BAYLEs PEANUT BUTTER Geo. A. BAYLE's Food Products 
1.....Hayle's Food Products... .1 jar PEANUT BUTTER Peter Hossi AND Sons. .1 
pkg..
    
   Fort Wayne News And Sentinel     Tuesday, February 18, 1919 Fort Wayne, 
Indiana    
...Spare Bibs, Ib. .18c BAYLE Quality PEANUT BUTTER, It's pure AND 
wholesome.....Raisins, 2 pkgs. for. .25c Bulk PEANUT BUTTER, pound. .18c Apple BUTTER, 
pound..
  
  
(WWW.NEWSPAPERARCHIVE.COM) ("peanut politics")
 Olean Democrat     Thursday, April 03, 1890 Olean, New York    
...In such a wide field of statesmanship "PEANUT POLITICS" has no part. 
Another.....has becomejmore than an issue of POLITICS. It has become "a matter of..
    
   Daily Northwestern   Thursday, April 28, 1887 Oshkosh, Wisconsin     
...Republicans have coined the phrase "PEANUT POLITICS" in connection with 
Gov.....that gentleman's annoyance. The term "PEANUT" is indeed suggestive of 
roasting..
Pg. 2, col. 2:
   The Cleveland Democrats and Republicans have coined the phrase "Peanut 
Politics" in connection with Gov. Hill's attitude toward the presdiency, very 
much to that gentleman's annoyance.  The term "peanut" is indeed suggestive of 
roasting.

     
(OED)
peanut politics
1887 N. York Mail & Express 27 May (Farmer Amer.), If the Governor would 
consent not to play peanut politics.
 


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 27 19:41:53 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 12:41:53 -0700
Subject: [SPAM:####] Re: Incest as a verb (was "fuck" in Wash Post)
In-Reply-To: <20040627171857.GA10499@panix.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.124153.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 27, 2004, at 10:18 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> ...We have a scattering of examples of this going back to the
> mid-1980s...

my colleague beth levin, who collects zero derivation, -ise, and -ify,
didn't have it.  (but she does now.)

arnold


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Jun 27 21:48:54 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:48:54 -0700
Subject: another version of "grammar" = everything
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.144854.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

the usual version is that "grammar" = everything to do with language:
syntax, morphology, word choice, pronunciation, spelling, and
punctuation (at least).  this time, it's "syntax":

Barry Bearak, "Poor Man's Burden", NYT Magazine, 6/27/04, p. 32, about
Lula da Silva, president of Brazil:

His speech lacked syntax; he cut off the S's on his plurals like a
peasant.

---------------

of course, it's possible that Bearak meant these to be two separate
claims (note semicolon, rather than colon), rather than a claim
followed by an illustrative example.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Sun Jun 27 23:54:21 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 19:54:21 -0400
Subject: Absolute "not so much" = "not really"
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.195421.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I first heard "not so much" on the sitcom "May About You," where it was a characteristic phrase of the character Paul Buchman, played by the sitcom creator, Paul Reiser.  From a 1992 episode, "Sofa's Choice," first aired on 9/30/1992:  "As a couch, I liked it.  And as a `love seat,' not so much."  It's a humorous phrase whose impact comes from understatement.  I suspect that Reiser popularized it.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Jesse Sheidlower
Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 10:08 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Absolute "not so much" = "not really"


A friend has observed the recent (?) currency of the phrase
"not so much" used absolutely, i.e. without any following
correlative prepositional phrase or complement, in a meaning
something like 'no; not at all; not really'. He said he first
noticed it as something the Leo McGarry character on _West
Wing_ says. We have only a few examples:

2004 _Hotdog_ Apr. 10/1 A romantic thriller?
Interesting. Starring Josh Hartnett? Not so much.

2004 _N.Y. Times_ 15 June B1 (headline) The Killer Gown Is
Essential, but the Prom Date? Not So Much.

It sounds perfectly natural to me, so of course I can't think
of when I first heard it. Anyone have any grammatical or other
observations? Larry? Arnold?

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Jun 28 00:17:41 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 20:17:41 -0400
Subject: slang (was Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay])
In-Reply-To: <19846FBD-C70B-11D8-8D49-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.201741.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 05:52:29PM -0700, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>
> the deeper point is that linguistics can't just take over
> ordinary-language vocabulary about language (which, after all,
> represents some rough folk theory about these matters, one that
> probably embodies some insight but was never intended as a systematic
> analysis of the domain) and elevate it to scientific status.  instead,
> you need to start by asking what concepts are needed, and then choose
> terminology.

Arnold,

I guess the question here is "Is Slang a Word for Linguists?"
a question asked and perhaps answered in an American Speech
article with that title, by Bethany Dumas and Jonathan Lighter
some years ago.

> so it is with slang.  "slang" is a piece of ordinary-language
> metavocabulary.  at its broadest, it takes in every sort of expression
> that (for whatever reason) isn't appropriate in the general formal
> written standard language; this is the parallel to something being a
> "short spelling" (for whatever value of "short").  at its narrowest,
> it's stuff that's informal, spoken, nonstandard, restricted to some
> social group (where it serves as a group marker), and ephemeral.  in
> between, there's all *sorts* of stuff, and it really makes no sense to
> ask if these things are *really* slang.  the concept of "slang" isn't
> given ahead of time, lying out there, just waiting for us to figure out
> its shape and nature.
>
> our business is to figure out what concepts play a role in this domain
> of language use and then to choose good terminology for them.  maybe we
> can find a place for the word "slang" in there, maybe not.  meanwhile,
> though, we're just thrashing around, bewitched by words.

Dumas and Lighter thought, and I think, that "slang" can be a
useful word for linguists, and that we can make some attempt
to come up with a definition that will be useful in a
linguistic way. Perhaps we can agree that the "folk" use of
"slang" (the word) is something we won't get upset about, that
we won't walk down the street with our linguists' rulers,
thwacking the knuckles of those who say that _bikini_ or
_ain't_ or _between you and I_ is "slang". But we can still
try to reserve some of the word's utility for our purposes.

There are more specific words for certain types of
shortenings, and in any case, it wouldn't be that bad if we
adopted new ones in technical contexts. "Slang", though, is
sort of on its own. I can't publish a dictionary called _The
Historical Dictionary of American Words and Phrases That Are
Informal, Chiefly Spoken, Serving as a Group Marker esp. for a
Marginalized Group, and Often Ephemeral_. It's too useful to
jettison.

Jesse Sheidlower, who thinks that "Ms" should not have a
period


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Jun 28 02:58:15 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 22:58:15 -0400
Subject: "Wet dry run" (1943)
In-Reply-To: <60.40a96f3f.2e0f14f1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.JUN.2004.225815.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

By 1943, "a dry run" already meant "a practice run" (rather than "a run
without water being thrown", the earlier firefighters' sense).

So what would one call a practice run which included throwing water?

"A wet dry run"?

http://www.stripes.com/ww2/stories/rooney08.html

----------

_Stars and Stripes_, 17 March 1943:

[AIr base crash team]

<<There aren't any brass poles, and no false alarms, but there is plenty of
authentic firehouse atmosphere around the place. Regularly the crash crews
go tearing out on a dry run; once in a while they empty the 400-gallon tank
on their truck in a wet dry run.>>

----------

-- Doug Wilson


From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU  Mon Jun 28 10:53:52 2004
From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 06:53:52 -0400
Subject: Absolute "not so much" = "not really"
In-Reply-To: <36a8i8$2kofsv@ironman.mail.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.065352.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This "not so much" is not so much "not really" as it is "no" or "not at
all". Did the ever-original "Friends" writers popularize a certain rhythm
to it? Probably. Were they the first to use it that way? Not so much.
"Friends" puts this phrase in the mouth of at least four of the characters
and in many episodes. It became predictable comedic patter, and shows up in
the speech and webspeech of my generation and younger much more often since
the later "Friends" years. Not a bad argument for the TV phenomenon.

Below is a use of the "not so much" as "no" in a headline that pre-dates
the show. Notice that it doesn't have a question or ellipse and then short
"not so much" that is typical today. (You could still argue that there is
an understood "not so much the money [as a matter of pride]".)

HEADLINE: How many kids did Elvis have? Nine --- or one? It's not so much
the money, although 'The King' left $200 million --there's prestige at
stake among the claimants to the Presley name
The Toronto Star
May 17, 1987

Here is an online chat site showing that the "Friends" rhythm is so popular
that it has become a cliche in our generation.
http://www.movie-fan-forum.com/movies/Im_banning_the_two_much_jokes_637311.html
I've noticed that the "? nsm" and "... nsm" structures have attained plague
status among newspaper headline writers this year.


*******************************************************************************************************************

At 01:17 PM 6/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Absolute "not so much" = "not really"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>So, this "not so much" thing still sounds very new/affected even though I use
>it quite often.  It still feels like a quote, and sure enough... here it is
>in "Friends".  I have no doubt that that's where I got it from, but I won't
>guess about the origin.
>I found this "Friends" transcript online (http://www.eigo-i.com/friends/).
>-dsb
>Douglas S. Bigham


From cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU  Mon Jun 28 11:45:32 2004
From: cjm at MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU (Carolina Jimenez-Marcos)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 07:45:32 -0400
Subject: Absolute "not so much" = "not really"
In-Reply-To: <36a8i8$2kofsv@ironman.mail.utexas.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.074532.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just a few sightings. Some pre-sitcom. Incidence increases around 1995,
concurrent with increase in "Friends" repetition of the nsm gag.


The Economist
February 26, 1977
HEADLINE: The LSE;
Not so much an uprising

The Economist
March 22, 1980
HEADLINE: China, Japan and America;
Not so much a trio

The Economist
December 4, 1982
HEADLINE: Not so much a riot

Sydney Morning Herald
January 19, 1990 Friday
HEADLINE: NOT SO MUCH FUN
(about getting thrown from a boogie board and winding up with a concussion,
no fun at all)

CBS News Transcripts
CBS THIS MORNING (7:00 AM ET)
November 13, 1990, Tuesday
Paula Zahn: Let's check in with Mark. Hopefully, there's better weather
news outthere this morning.
Mark McEwen: Well, thank you, Paula. Thank you, Harry. Not so much--not
real better news today.

Financial Times (London,England)
November 2, 1991, Saturday
HEADLINE: Not so much Mozart . . .;
(about a film series titled "Not Mozart")

Minnesota Public Radio. All Rights Reserved
SAVVY TRAVELER
July 21, 2001 Saturday
[transcript]
Rudy Maxa: Well, Diana, tell me, what is your favorite food? I'm sort of
guessing French.
Diana Nyad: Yeah, you know, not so much. Heavy sauces and all that. I--I
tell you the truth, the grill. Back yard, shrimp on the barbie. You can't
do better than that for me.

The New York Times
February 26, 2003 Wednesday
HEADLINE: The College Remembers Lehman; Its Students, Not So Much

The Daily Herald-Tribune (Grande Prairie, Alberta)
April 4, 2003 Friday Final Edition
HEADLINE: WAY TO GO!;
EXPOS OFF TO FINE START; BRAVES...NOT SO MUCH






*************************************************************
"Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children,
practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."
--Rev. Pat Robertson


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Mon Jun 28 12:25:23 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 08:25:23 -0400
Subject: "f**k" in WashPost
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.082523.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Subject line altered to make spamkillers happy.

From:    Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>

: Followers of vulgarity may be interested to see that today's
: Washington Post includes the word "fuck" printed in full,
: with no dashes or asterisks, on page A4. The article concerns
: our Vice President's use of the term in the Senate:

<snip>

:  http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3699-2004Jun24.html

And, for a bit of _Post_ history that AFAICT hasn't been mentioned in this
discussion, from Dana Milbank's "White House Insiders" online chat Friday 25
June (which included a good bit of discussion of the Cheney-Leahy exchange):

===

Washington, D.C.: Regarding this morning's article about Cheney's use of an
expletive, I thought it was a perfectly reasonable editorial decision to run
the article the way it ran, with the expletive and all, but I've heard a lot
of criticism (most of which is probably partisan). I'm just curious,
however, about what kind of editorial discussion there was at the Washington
Post regarding the article -- I think that's the first time I've seen that
particular expletive used in a Post article. Was it put on A4 because of
that? Etc.?

Dana Milbank: I'll leave the explanations of editorial decisions to my
superiors, but as a historical matter, that expletive appeared in the paper
in 1998 when it was used in the Starr report.

===

Another interesting bit later on, showing that it's not simply an editorial
decision to quote expletives:

===

Kansas City, Mo.: Your column on the Leahy/Cheney exchange notes that Kerry
used similar language in December. Was that reported in the Washington Post?
I read faithfully every day, but that was news to me.

Dana Milbank: Kerry used the same naughty word in an interview with Rolling
Stone. The Post did not repeat that word then, nor did it repeat the word
when Bush used it in 1999 in an interview with Talk magazine.

===

The entire chat is available at
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25168-2004Jun8.html?referrer=email

The first exchange came fairly early in the session, the second one about
halfway through.

<snip>

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Jun 28 13:57:49 2004
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:57:49 EDT
Subject: Peanut Butter Sandwich (January 1896); Peanut Politics (April
 1887)
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.095749.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Sun, 27 Jun 2004 15:31:38 EDT,   Bapopik at AOL.COM

>     Smith gives May 1896 (GOOD HOUSEKEEPING) for the first "peanut
>  sandwiches," but we can take that back to at least January 1896, with a
hint
>   that it had come into vogue in the fall of 1895.
>     The July 1897 CHICAGO TRIBUNE "peanut butter" citation here is of
interest.
     <parsnip>
>    Smith mentions on page 31: "This unnamed physician reportedly gave the
>  recipe to George A. Bayles, who, it was claimed, was the first to
manufacture
>  peanut butter."  His name was Bayle--not Bayles--and Bayle's Peanut Butter
> first shows up on the databases in the 1910s.

According to URL http://www.peanutbutterlovers.com/history/

<quote>
Around the same time, Dr. John Harvey Kellogg in Battle Creek, Michigan,
began experimenting with peanut butter as a vegetarian source of protein for his
patients. His brother, W.K. Kellogg, was business manager of their sanitarium,
the Western Health Reform Institute, but soon opened Sanitas Nut Company which
supplied foods like peanut butter to local grocery stores.

The Kelloggs' patent for the "Process of Preparing Nut Meal" in 1895
described "a pasty adhesive substance that is for convenience of distinction termed
nut butter." However, their peanut butter was not as tasty as peanut butter
today because the peanuts were steamed, instead of roasted, prior to grinding. The
Kellogg brothers turned their attention to cereals which eventually gained
them worldwide recognition.
</quote>

Well, this isn't "peanut butter" but it is close, and hopefully will be of
some help.

My local grocery sells "nut butter" which is a peanut-butter-like food made
from tree nuts.

To my surprise, peanut butter was NOT invented by George Washington Carver.

OT: my daughter has relegated BIll Clinton to the kitchen.  "Why would a
publisher give a ten million dollar advance," she asks, "for 957 pages of
hyperbowl?"

               - Jim Landau


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Mon Jun 28 14:42:36 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:42:36 -0400
Subject: "Skank" redux
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.104236.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I first heard the word now spelled "skank" in Saint Louis,
ca.1950, I wondered whether it should be spelled: "skink" or "skank,"
given that either of these spellings would be pronounced "skank,"
because slang terms are always pronounced as soulfully ("The name of
this song is 'This Here,' but, _for purposes of soul_, we gon' cawl it,
'Disshih-uh.'" -Cannonball Adderly) as possible.

It was also the case, in those days in Saint Louis, that it was class,
not morals, that determined whether a girl was a skank. At that time,
the Pruitt-Igoe Homes, to this day, the largest housing project ever
built, was located in Saint Louis. Girls from the poverty-stricked
families that were forced to live in this project were called
"skinks/skanks" or "skags" by middle-class black teen-aged boys, with
no reference made to their morals. However, it goes without  saying
that, despite the lack of any evidence in support of this assumption,
as is usually the case, boys from the better classes felt that girls
from the lower orders were somehow more promiscuous than their
middle-class counterparts. There was even a term for going on the hunt
for these girls: "skink-/skank-making" or "skag-making."


From debaron at UIUC.EDU  Mon Jun 28 15:12:25 2004
From: debaron at UIUC.EDU (Dennis Baron)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:12:25 -0500
Subject: passing
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.101225.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In today's NY Times, Brent Staples, discussing the phenomenon of
"passing for white," says, "The people who abandoned their families
were described as 'passed' -- a euphemism for dead." (NYT 10-28-04, p.
A18. To pass for (=pretend to be, or be recognized as) something else
goes back in the OED to the 16th c, and in this same sense, to pass for
white, to the 1930s. But in Nella Larsen's novel "Passing," there is a
sense of both meanings of passing, pretense and death. Are both senses
now current, or is the 'death' explanation replacing what I take to be
the earlier sense of the word?

Dennis


From jester at PANIX.COM  Mon Jun 28 15:21:31 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 11:21:31 -0400
Subject: passing
In-Reply-To: <8FBF9372-C915-11D8-8A9F-00039303FF34@uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.112131.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 10:12:25AM -0500, Dennis Baron wrote:
> In today's NY Times, Brent Staples, discussing the phenomenon of
> "passing for white," says, "The people who abandoned their families
> were described as 'passed' -- a euphemism for dead." (NYT 10-28-04, p.
> A18. To pass for (=pretend to be, or be recognized as) something else
> goes back in the OED to the 16th c, and in this same sense, to pass for
> white, to the 1930s. But in Nella Larsen's novel "Passing," there is a
> sense of both meanings of passing, pretense and death. Are both senses
> now current, or is the 'death' explanation replacing what I take to be
> the earlier sense of the word?

No, _pass_ 'pretend to be (higher-status person)' is very common still.

A few recent examples, out of many:

2000 C. WEST & D. H. ZIMMERMAN in M. S. Kimmel & A. Aronson
Gendered Soc. Reader 135 As in the case of others who must
`pass,' such as transvestites, Kabuki actors, or Dustin
Hoffman's `Tootsie,' Agnes's case makes visible what culture
has made invisible?the accomplishment of gender.

2000 Newsweek 1 Jan. 30/1 If people with `black blood' can now
be white or at least not black, what becomes of the concept of
passing? Passing, after all, implies a denial of one's
authentic ancestry to be accepted as a member of another race.

2003 N.Y. Times (National ed.) 8 Aug. B30/6 When he copied the
images, he sorted them into categories: `Drag queens; porn;
Gay Rights/protests; AIDS; trying to be like straight people
(passing); Military; Art.'

2004 Independent (Tabloid ed.) 14 Apr. 35/1 His ability to
`pass' for white was later to enable him to play the major
vaudeville circuits in the 1920s, when there was strict
segregation.

We also have loads of examples of the 'die' sense, of course.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Jun 28 16:09:23 2004
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 12:09:23 -0400
Subject: Point-three (of a) percent
In-Reply-To: <1088361302.40df1356bfff5@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.120923.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Damien Hall writes:
>As renditions of '.3%' or '0.3%', both 'point-three of a percent' and the bare
>'point-three percent' sound fine to my Standard Southern British ear.
 ~~~~~~~~~
Thanks.
I *think*  we would usually say either:

"three tenths of a percent"
or
"point three percent,"

so that "point three of a percent" sounds like a blend.

A. Murie


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Mon Jun 28 18:13:03 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:13:03 -0400
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.141303.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse Sheidlower's signoff in his most recent message -

'Jesse Sheidlower, who thinks that "Ms" should not have a
period'

- has inspired me to ask about the following.  I think it
may be a simple transatlantic difference, but I'd be interested to know what
others think.

For me, prescriptively, if I might be so bold, no abbreviation should have a
period after it unless that period actually replaces letters, so correct forms
are:

Ms
Mr
Dr
Mrs
Miss

but

(Rt) Rev.
Prof.

However, I've noticed that universal usage in the States seems to be periods
after all of this type of abbreviation.

To confuse the picture further, in Britain at least the inclusion of the
'correct' period is coming more and more to be seen as too fussy and obscuring
'real meaning' at the expense of emphasising personal 'scholarliness' in the
worst sense.  Instead, in business communications, the tendency is towards
what's called 'open', ie 'no', punctuation, so:

Prof A N Other
St Agatha's College
OXBRIDGE
OE72 7YT
UK

28 Jun 2004

Dear Prof Other ...

British newspapers also follow this usage and don't, or rarely, put periods
after abbreviations of this type.  What's the difference between American
prescriptive and actual usage and British prescriptive and actual usage?

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 28 19:37:05 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 12:37:05 -0700
Subject: the thin line between error and mere variation II: going nucular
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.123705.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ordinary people, faced with what are for them deviant, "wrong", bits of
language, see nothing but a mistake, period.  They are resistant to the
linguist's idea that there could be a rationale for the "mistake", even
a system to it, or that, in fact, the very same thing could result from
different sources or represent different systems.  (This attitude
presents a tough challenge when we teach beginning linguistics courses
-- not only when we talk about dialects, but also when we talk about
language acquisition.  One of the hardest lessons for many students is
that instead of saying what's wrong, what people "can't" or "won't" do,
they should be describing what people *do*, and making hypotheses about
*why* they do that.)

Geoff Nunberg's "Going Nucular" piece makes a significant advance in
trying to get these ideas out to linguistically unsophisticated people.
  First, it makes an inadvertent/advertent distinction (via the labels
"typo" vs. "thinko"); some people say "nucular" because they've
inadvertently reshaped the pronunciation to fit a common -ular pattern
for learned words (tabular, globular, tubular, vernacular, oracular,
popular, spectacular, oracular, etc., but especially molecular), but
other people say it because they think that (at least in some contexts)
this is the way the word is pronounced.  What Nunberg doesn't stress is
that these days virtually everybody who says "nucular" is in the second
group; though the support of other -ular words helps to make "nucular"
sound right, these people are saying it because other people say it.
(The same point can be made for almost any innovative usage.  Though
hypercorrection surely played some role in the development of
nominative coordinate object pronouns -- the famous "between Kim and I"
-- for some time now people with this usage have it because that's what
they hear, with some frequency, from the relevant people.)

Second, Nunberg doesn't stop there, but speculates some about the
possibility of different systems for the use of "nucular".  In
particular, he cites at least one speaker for whom "nucular" refers
specifically to nukes, with "nuclear" used in expressions like "nuclear
family" and "the nuclear material of the cell".  This is a tremendous
advance, with many analogies in other areas (there are several
different systems of nominative coordinate object pronouns, several
different systems of multiple negation, and so on), but it stops well
short of telling the whole truth.  To do that, the whole discussion has
to be re-framed.

Instead of talking about "nucular" as a mere thinko, we need to treat
it as a variant pronunciation for a word, an alternative to "nuclear".
Just like alternative pronunciations for: radiator, apricot, tomato,
envelope, and many, many other words (with item-specific variants). So,
put aside judgmental attitudes for a while, and ask how people use
these alternative pronunciations.  There are five types of systems:

Type 1: "nuclear" all the way.  (This is my system, for what that's
worth.)

Type 2: free variation, or as close as people come to this.  While you
might be able to discern reasons for one choice or the other in
particular contexts, for the most part the motivations for choosing one
variant over the other are too context-specific, too idiosyncratic, too
much in the moment: inscrutable, in fact.  As far as I can tell, that's
my situation for the /a/ vs. /E/ pronunciations for "envelope", and for
the cursive vs. the printed variants for the capital letter <A>, even
in my first name.

Type 3: variation according to context, say according to formality,
with "nuclear" as the formal, fancy, or scientific pronunciation, and
"nucular" as the informal, homey, everyday pronunciation.  My own
pronunciation of "tomato" is mostly /a/ (thanks to living with an
/a/-speaker for decades and to residence in the U.K. for significant
periods), but more and more I'm inclined to use /e/ when speaking to
Americans.

Type 4: variation according to semantics, as in the nucular-nukes
variety reported by Nunberg.

Type 5: "nucular" all the way; the -ular pronunciation is *the*
pronunciation for the word.  There are, I belief, very many speakers of
this sort.  They understand that other people say the word differently,
just as I understand that some people have /ae/ in "radiator" or
"apricot", instead of my /e/.  That's ok for them, but what I do is ok
for me.

Nunberg suggests that George W. Bush might be a Type 4 speaker, but he
could well be a Type 5 speaker.  Instances of the "nuclear"
pronunciation are so rare in his speech as to preclude the other three
possibilities.

There's a further dimension to all of this, namely the question of
intentionality, or conscious choice.  Nunberg is inclined to see GWB as
having *chosen* the "nucular" variant, to project a particular persona;
in even less neutral phrasing, GWB "puts on" his folksy, Texas-rancher,
hypermasculine persona, with the linguistic accoutrements that go along
with that.

I don't doubt that some people sometimes consciously re-shape their
behavior in certain respects.  But I think that most accommodations to
social varieties and most constructions of personas via behavior
(linguistic and otherwise) happen below the level of consciousness,
usually with very little awareness of what features are being chosen or
why.  (In a sense, this *has* to be true.  There are just too many bits
of behavior for choices among them to be under conscious control.  This
is especially true for bits of linguistic behavior, which have to be
produced in tiny amounts of time, many at the same time.)

Some years ago it was pointed out to me that when I'm trying to be very
precise in talking about linguistics, I use dental rather than alveolar
articulations for consonants.  Eventually, this astute observer (Ann
Daingerfield Zwicky) noted that I'd never done that before I went to
graduate school.  After some reflection on this odd state of affairs,
we realized that I was reproducing the articulations of my graduate
school adviser, Morris Halle, in my Serious Linguist persona.  All
entirely unconsciously, I assure you.

Anecdotes like this could be multiplied endlessly.  There's even some
research on the matter.  As a result, I'd be very very cautious in
attributing someone's ensemble of linguistic features to conscious
choice.  GWB could come to his pronunciation "nucular", his extremely
high use of "-in'" over "-ing", and so on without ever thinking any of
it through (and without consciously rejecting standard or formal
variants).  He could get there just by behaving like the kind of person
he believes himself to be.  Like, in fact, the rest of us.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From dcamp911 at JUNO.COM  Mon Jun 28 18:49:26 2004
From: dcamp911 at JUNO.COM (Duane Campbell)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:49:26 -0400
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.144926.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:13:03 -0400 Damien Hall
<halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU> writes:

> For me, prescriptively, if I might be so bold, no abbreviation
> should have a
> period after it unless that period actually replaces letters, so
> correct forms
> are:
>
> Ms      [etc]

Perhaps this is just to counterbalance the Brits' compulsive overuse of
commas.

D

I am Duane Campbell and I approve this message


From pds at VISI.COM  Mon Jun 28 21:21:48 2004
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:21:48 +0000
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <20040628181315.59B694C95@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.212148.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quoting Damien Hall <halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU>:
> To confuse the picture further, in Britain at least the inclusion of the
> 'correct' period is coming more and more to be seen as too fussy and
> obscuring
> 'real meaning' at the expense of emphasising personal 'scholarliness' in the
> worst sense.  Instead, in business communications, the tendency is towards
> what's called 'open', ie 'no', punctuation, so:

When abbreviations -- and initials -- are part of names and addresses, in the
government and business worlds at least, these items are likely to be funneled
through electronic databases at one point or another, where the use of any
punctuation is strongly discouraged for numerous reasons.  (An exception to
this rule seems to be hyphenated surnames.)  To name a couple:
--Teaching automated processes that "St. Paul" = "St Paul" is less efficient
than just removing the periods from the data.
--Programmers and database designers have appropriated punctuation symbols for
their own purposes.  Allowing these symbols in data risks confusion or worse.
For example, a comma-delimited data file (in which one data element is
separated from the next by a comma) can be rendered unintelligible if the data
itself has commas.

These reasons hold on both sides of the Atlantic.

--Tom Kysilko
  Practical Data Services
  St Paul MN


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Jun 28 21:38:37 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:38:37 -0700
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <1088446383.40e05faf2044b@webmail.sas.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.143837.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 28, 2004, at 11:13 AM, Damien Hall wrote:

> Jesse Sheidlower's signoff in his most recent message -
>
> 'Jesse Sheidlower, who thinks that "Ms" should not have a
> period'
>
> - has inspired me to ask about the following.  I think it
> may be a simple transatlantic difference, but I'd be interested to
> know what
> others think.
>
> For me, prescriptively, if I might be so bold, no abbreviation should
> have a
> period after it unless that period actually replaces letters, so
> correct forms
> are:
>
> Ms
> Mr
> Dr
> Mrs
> Miss

whoa!  you put that last one  in just to make sure we were reading,
right?  "Miss" doesn't need a period, for anybody.

otherwise, the system you report is standard formal british (and
french: "Mlle", "Mme", but "M.").  standard formal american uses a
period if letters are left out (except for initialisms, acronyms,
clippings pronounced in short form, etc.).

in any case, Ms. Magazine seems to like its period.  but of course it's
american.

maybe jesse has been hanging out with those oxford folks too long...

(and, yes, as tom kysilko points out, in lots of modern contexts *all*
punctuation marks, including apostrophes as well as periods, but
especially periods. are omitted.)

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Jun 29 03:18:17 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:18:17 -0400
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.231817.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Jesse did not clarify why he thinks that "Ms" should not have a period.  My initial thought was that he meant that actual words, such as Ms and Mrs (neither of which is an abbreviation for anything), should not have periods.

        Perhaps we were just in need of another prescriptive rule, but I really don't see why there should be a period for abbreviations like Rev., where the retained letters are at the beginning of the word, but not for abbreviations like St. (when short for Saint), where the retained letters come from both the beginning and the end of the word.  In the context of business organizations, I suppose we could keep Co. and Inc. but would have to go with Ltd as the abbreviation for Limited.  We could keep St. for Street, but Blvd would abbreviate Boulevard.  Is this really a good approach?

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Damien Hall
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 2:13 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Periods after abbreviations


Jesse Sheidlower's signoff in his most recent message -

'Jesse Sheidlower, who thinks that "Ms" should not have a
period'

- has inspired me to ask about the following.  I think it
may be a simple transatlantic difference, but I'd be interested to know what
others think.

For me, prescriptively, if I might be so bold, no abbreviation should have a
period after it unless that period actually replaces letters, so correct forms
are:

Ms
Mr
Dr
Mrs
Miss

but

(Rt) Rev.
Prof.

However, I've noticed that universal usage in the States seems to be periods
after all of this type of abbreviation.

To confuse the picture further, in Britain at least the inclusion of the
'correct' period is coming more and more to be seen as too fussy and obscuring
'real meaning' at the expense of emphasising personal 'scholarliness' in the
worst sense.  Instead, in business communications, the tendency is towards
what's called 'open', ie 'no', punctuation, so:

Prof A N Other
St Agatha's College
OXBRIDGE
OE72 7YT
UK

28 Jun 2004

Dear Prof Other ...

British newspapers also follow this usage and don't, or rarely, put periods
after abbreviations of this type.  What's the difference between American
prescriptive and actual usage and British prescriptive and actual usage?

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Jun 29 03:21:09 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:21:09 -0400
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.232109.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> writes:
>except for initialisms,

What about a.m. and p.m.; s.s.e. [for south-southeast]; T.C. [for
Teacher's College]; T.Q.C. [for total quality control]; and U.A.W. [for
United Automobile Workers]; and U.F.C.T. [for United Federation of College
Teachers].  These examples were taken from a dictionary of abbreviations
which was very sensitive to periods in the evidence it collected prior to
being written.

Regards,
David

Banhart at highlands.com


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Jun 29 03:24:31 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:24:31 -0400
Subject: Absolute "not so much" = "not really"
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.232431.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Mad About You predated Friends, which didn't start until 1994.  My bet is that Paul Reiser did not originate "not so much" but did popularize it.  Friends, and perhaps other sitcoms, then starting using the same comic phrase.

        Of course, everyone was saying "not so much" long before Reiser said it in 1992.  What Reiser changed was to make it a humorous stand-along phrase, instead of an explicit comparison.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Carolina Jimenez-Marcos
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 6:54 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Absolute "not so much" = "not really"


This "not so much" is not so much "not really" as it is "no" or "not at
all". Did the ever-original "Friends" writers popularize a certain rhythm
to it? Probably. Were they the first to use it that way? Not so much.
"Friends" puts this phrase in the mouth of at least four of the characters
and in many episodes. It became predictable comedic patter, and shows up in
the speech and webspeech of my generation and younger much more often since
the later "Friends" years. Not a bad argument for the TV phenomenon.

Below is a use of the "not so much" as "no" in a headline that pre-dates
the show. Notice that it doesn't have a question or ellipse and then short
"not so much" that is typical today. (You could still argue that there is
an understood "not so much the money [as a matter of pride]".)

HEADLINE: How many kids did Elvis have? Nine --- or one? It's not so much
the money, although 'The King' left $200 million --there's prestige at
stake among the claimants to the Presley name
The Toronto Star
May 17, 1987


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 29 04:05:38 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 21:05:38 -0700
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e01b42d6e3b9aca0021739d8a.1b42da2@chain.highlands.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.JUN.2004.210538.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 28, 2004, at 8:21 PM, Barnhart wrote:

> American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> writes:
>> except for initialisms,
>
> What about a.m. and p.m.; s.s.e. [for south-southeast]; T.C. [for
> Teacher's College]; T.Q.C. [for total quality control]; and U.A.W. [for
> United Automobile Workers]; and U.F.C.T. [for United Federation of
> College
> Teachers].  These examples were taken from a dictionary of
> abbreviations
> which was very sensitive to periods in the evidence it collected prior
> to
> being written.

eek.  what i wrote here was a cut-down version of a discussion for
soc.motss (which was itself only an approximation to the full
complexity of actual practice).  it's a periodic jungle out there.
some people insist on "M.I.T.", some on "MIT", while almost everyone
does the University of California branches without periods: "UCLA",
"UCSC", "UCSB", and so on.  and on and on.

modern practice on initialisms tends more and more towards no periods.
that doesn't mean there can't be the occasional periodic island.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT  Tue Jun 29 10:49:07 2004
From: mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT (Amorelli)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:49:07 +0200
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.124907.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:18 AM
Subject: Re: Periods after abbreviations




>         Jesse did not clarify why he thinks that "Ms" should not have a
period.  My initial thought was that he meant that actual words, such as Ms
and Mrs (neither of which is an abbreviation for anything), should not have
periods.
>
I was taught that Mrs. was the abbreviation for 'Mistress' and Mr. for
'Master', tho' in British usage this latter full form is still used to
indicate an under-18 male recipient of the communication which, on the face
of it might invalidate the abbreviated form for over-18 males.
Maria Immacolata Amorelli


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Jun 29 12:57:01 2004
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:57:01 -0400
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F23B6226@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.085701.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 11:18:17PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>
>         Jesse did not clarify why he thinks that "Ms" should
> not have a period.  My initial thought was that he meant
> that actual words, such as Ms and Mrs (neither of which is
> an abbreviation for anything), should not have periods.

"Mrs" isn't an abbreviation? Could have fooled me. I trusted
my trusty OED when it told me that it's shortened from
"mistress".

"Ms" on the other hand really isn't an abbreviation, and this,
rather than any sense of British lack-of-periodness, is the
secondary reason why I don't use a period after it.

The main reason is, of course, pretension.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Tue Jun 29 13:40:15 2004
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:40:15 -0500
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.084015.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

:
Jesse did not clarify why he thinks that "Ms" should
not have a period.

I thought it was a humorous comment on militant feminism,  it never occurred
to me that it was meant to be serious.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 29 15:39:06 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:39:06 -0700
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <017501c45dde$9c6f9de0$2ce186d8@paulz>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.083906.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 29, 2004, at 6:40 AM, paulzjoh wrote:

> :
> Jesse did not clarify why he thinks that "Ms" should
> not have a period.
>
> I thought it was a humorous comment on militant feminism,  it never
> occurred
> to me that it was meant to be serious.

what would having a period, or not, have to do with militant feminism?

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 29 14:29:25 2004
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:29:25 -0400
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.102925.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold Zwicky said:

=========================

> Miss

whoa!  you put that last one  in just to make sure we were reading,
right?  "Miss" doesn't need a period, for anybody.

=========================

I'm glad to see that.  I didn't think so - it looks unbearably prissy to me -
but I have seen it in early-twentieth-century British texts.  Presumably it was
because I think the word was originally an abbreviation of 'Mistress' and the
writers thought that that should be indicated by putting a period in.  Never
mind that the period wouldn't have replaced any letters because there are none
after the double <s>.  I wouldn't have argued that 'Miss.' is current usage for
anyone but it's good to see it confirmed.  And thanks for the summary of
standard formal American usage.

John Baker remarked that neither 'Ms' nor 'Mrs' was an abbreviation for
anything.  I'd always thought that 'Mrs' was an abbreviation for 'Mistress';  a
strange case because 'Miss' is as well, but there you go.  Victorian English
seems to have used the phrase 'mistress of the house' quite commonly to mean
the lady at the top of it, so that would be the 'Mrs', not the 'Miss'.

I think that John's comments about the unwieldiness of a period in 'Rev.' but
not in 'St', in 'Co.' but not in 'Ltd', are spot-on;  that's presumably the
main reason why the so-called 'open punctuation' system has evolved, in Britain
at least.  (By the way, though, you can make it a little easier by saying that
'St' = 'Street' should never have a period because the <t> could come from the
end of the word - but that's a get-out, it seems to me.)

But I must defend my country against Duane Campbell's accusation of 'compulsive
overuse of commas'!  Perhaps it's due to an 'open punctuation' reflex gained
when I worked in an office writing letters, but many Americans who receive
e-mails from me (the type that begin 'Dear So-and-so') can be relied upon to
comment regularly on the fact that I never have a comma after the salutation,
whereas they always would.  It's also an absolute rule of British prescriptive
grammar (though clearly 'prescriptive' may be a four-letter word on this
listserv - perhaps we should all add it to our lists of words to be filtered out
by spam filters, replacing 'fuck' in that list) that, in lists, the penultimate
item never has a comma after it if there is also an 'and', whereas I note that
in America all items in such lists are followed by commas.  In fact, I can
probably make a stronger statement that (I was always taught that) 'and' should
never have a comma before it except in certain special circumstances where
clarity would be lost without a comma.  Common examples of such circumstances
are lists where the items are each several words long and need to be securely
delimited, and lists where the items themselves contain 'and' (obviously,
bibliographies commonly do).

Finally, David Banhart's examples of initialisms with periods in them all strike
me as things that would never be written with periods in British English, so
it's interesting that there's apparently variation across time in American
usage (cf Arnold's comment that initialisms often do not include periods).
David, when was the dictionary compiled?

Damien Hall
University of Pennsylvania


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 29 16:53:06 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 09:53:06 -0700
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <20040629125701.GB23004@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.095306.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 29, 2004, at 5:57 AM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 11:18:17PM -0400, Baker, John wrote:
>>
>>         Jesse did not clarify why he thinks that "Ms" should
>> not have a period.  My initial thought was that he meant
>> that actual words, such as Ms and Mrs (neither of which is
>> an abbreviation for anything), should not have periods.
>
> "Mrs" isn't an abbreviation? Could have fooled me. I trusted
> my trusty OED when it told me that it's shortened from
> "mistress".

historically, yes.  but now it's a short spelling that is
conventionally (and, to some degree, arbitrarily) associated with the
pronunciation /mIsIz/, which is sometimes spelled out as <missus>.

a core, straightforward instance of an abbreviation is a short spelling
which can be converted to a fully spelled word by the addition of
letters and which gets its pronunciation from the pronunciation of the
longer spelling and its meaning from the meaning of the word with the
longer spelling.  <Prof.>, <Rte.>, and <fn.> are instances.

but the world of spelling is full of all sorts of other phenomena which
deviate in various degrees from the core instances.  <Mrs.>, pronounced
/mIsIz/, is one of them.  <fnn.>, pronounced /fUtnots/, is another.
<lb.>, pronounced /pawnd/,  is still another.  <MemChu>, pronounced
/mEm cu/, is yet another.  <IBM>, pronounced /ay bi Em/, is yet
another.  all the way up to <&>, pronounced /aend/.  there are many
different types of short spellings, and there is no natural way to
carve out categories other than the individual types (among them the
core type) or the whole set of short spellings.  you can, if you want,
reserve "abbreviation" as a technical term for the core type (in which
case, neither <Mrs.> nor <Ms.> is an abbreviation), or you can reserve
it as a technical term for short spellings as a whole (in which case,
both are abbreviations).  or you can give a disjunctive list of types
for which you will reserve it as a technical term (perhaps on the
grounds of historical derivation, though that would pick up <Miss> as
well as <Mrs.>, or on the grounds of usage in everyday language),
though then your list, as a definition of a *technical term*, is no
more defensible than any random list someone else might draw up.

the problem is that the question "is X an abbreviation?" doesn't make
sense unless you're clear about what counts as an abbreviation.  and
*that* question has two clear and defensible answers, a very narrow one
and a very broad one, plus any number of ad hoc answers; the answer you
give to the second question determines the answer to the first.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 29 18:21:04 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:21:04 -0700
Subject: slang (was Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay])
In-Reply-To: <20040628001740.GA26793@panix.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.112104.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 27, 2004, at 5:17 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> Arnold,
> I guess the question here is "Is Slang a Word for Linguists?" a
> question asked and perhaps answered in an American Speech article with
> that title, by Bethany Dumas and Jonathan Lighter some years ago.

which i somehow missed.  and the 1978 AmSp is missing from my library;
1977, yes, 1979, yes, but 1978, no.  so i guess it's time for a trip to
the library.

my complaint was not really that a technical usage of "slang"
*couldn't* be carved out, just that  a lot of discussion of what is or
is not slang (even among linguists) seems not be to grounded in such a
technical usage, but runs with something like the everyday usage.

> ..."Slang"... is sort of on its own. I can't publish a dictionary
> called _The Historical Dictionary of American Words and Phrases That
> Are Informal, Chiefly Spoken, Serving as a Group Marker esp. for a
> Marginalized Group, and Often Ephemeral_. It's too useful to jettison.

well, yes, there's a problem.  the solution is either to use "slang" as
a technical term, but explain very carefully what it embraces, or to
adopt some fresh label.  the first solution, the one almost everyone
adopts, will mislead some people, who will complain that slang words X,
Y, and Z are not in dictionary but should be (even though they're
excluded by your definition).  the second solution has the minus of
strangeness, opacity.  either solution will work if you're addressing
an audience of specialists -- mathematics get away with both major
wrenchings of ordinary vocabulary and flagrant innovations, but that's
because they're usually addressing other mathematicians, or people who
propose to learn some mathematics -- but both are troublesome when the
audience has lots of nonspecialists in it.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Jun 29 18:56:34 2004
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:56:34 -0400
Subject: nucular
In-Reply-To: <20040629040422.A269122861@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.145634.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold writes (with normative capitalization):

        >>>
Nunberg suggests that George W. Bush might be a Type 4 speaker, but he
could well be a Type 5 speaker.  Instances of the "nuclear"
pronunciation are so rare in his speech as to preclude the other three
possibilities.
        <<<

I suggest editing that second sentence as follows:

Instances of the "nuclear" pronunciation are so rare in his PUBLISHED speech
as to preclude ASSIGNING HIM TO ANY OF the other three possibilities.

(We don't know what he says off-camera, off-recorder, etc.)

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT  Tue Jun 29 20:49:53 2004
From: mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT (Amorelli)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:49:53 +0200
Subject: slang (was Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay])
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.224953.0200.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> well, yes, there's a problem.  the solution is either to use "slang" as
> a technical term, but explain very carefully what it embraces, or to
> adopt some fresh label.  the first solution, the one almost everyone
> adopts, will mislead some people, who will complain that slang words X,
> Y, and Z are not in dictionary but should be (even though they're
> excluded by your definition).  the second solution has the minus of
> strangeness, opacity.  either solution will work if you're addressing
> an audience of specialists -- mathematics get away with both major
> wrenchings of ordinary vocabulary and flagrant innovations, but that's
> because they're usually addressing other mathematicians, or people who
> propose to learn some mathematics -- but both are troublesome when the
> audience has lots of nonspecialists in it.
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)

Or use something like the 'Broad' definition (used for Australian speech)
when indicating usage outside of the technical which would have the
advantage of indicating the lower register, and keeping 'jargon' to indicate
in-house usage? We'd have to use it in fixed collocations tho': Cockney
Rhyming Broad just doesn't have the same ring to it.
Maria Immacolata Amorelli


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Jun 29 21:07:19 2004
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:07:19 -0700
Subject: for the ADS (fwd)
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.140719.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Peter Richardson is taking some time off from the list, but wanted to share
the following.

Peter McGraw

---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Date: Thursday, June 24, 2004 8:50 AM -0700
From: Peter Richardson <prichard at linfield.edu>
To: Peter McGraw <pmcgraw at linfield.edu>
Subject: for the ADS

Peter, just in case my machine won't let me send this to the ADS, you
might wait for a day and then send it on if you don't get it through their
channels. It comes from my vigilant cousin in Minnesota.

Hello all -

It seems I didn't anticipate some of your concerns -
For accounts that need to be reactivated ("unDisusered"), password
resets and login problems, printer problems and other troubleshooting,
please continue to send requests to southern.operators at csu.mnscu.edu or
call the regional data center operators at 507-389-6653.  The only
change is how the security forms are handled.  Other issues are handled
as before.

Bill S.


---------- End Forwarded Message ----------



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Jun 29 22:46:13 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:46:13 -0700
Subject: Fwd: slang (was Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay])
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.154613.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Arnold M. Zwicky <zwicky at csli.stanford.edu>
> Date: June 29, 2004 3:18:52 PM PDT
> To: Grant Barrett <grant.barrett at oup.com>
> Subject: Re: slang (was Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay])
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2004, at 11:42 AM, Grant Barrett wrote:
>
>> FYI, as an ADS member you have access to the journal online,
>> including back issues to the beginning...
>
> thanks to grant, and to jesse for the .pdf.  (bethany, you can save
> the postage.)
>
> arnold
>


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Wed Jun 30 00:11:03 2004
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:11:03 -0400
Subject: Fwd: slang (was Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay])
In-Reply-To: <1F4D9CFA-CA1E-11D8-B850-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.201103.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:

>> thanks to grant, and to jesse for the .pdf.  (bethany, you can save
>> the postage.)

Too late. I have already autographed it and written the love note. The
cover has faded a bit with time, but all the contents are intact.

(Maybe you will be able to sell it on ebay.)

Bethany


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Wed Jun 30 01:45:07 2004
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:45:07 -0500
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.204507.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Possibly the missing period would indicate that one's feminism was
insufficiently militant?
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>

what would having a period, or not, have to do with militant feminism?


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 30 02:08:13 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 19:08:13 -0700
Subject: slang (was Re: Phat [was Re: gay/ghey/ghay])
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0406292009250.9670@larry.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.190813.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 29, 2004, at 5:11 PM, you wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>
>>> thanks to grant, and to jesse for the .pdf.  (bethany, you can save
>>> the postage.)
>
> Too late. I have already autographed it and written the love note. The
> cover has faded a bit with time, but all the contents are intact.
>
> (Maybe you will be able to sell it on ebay.)

nonsense.  i will treasure it.

arnold


From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM  Wed Jun 30 02:47:58 2004
From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:47:58 -0400
Subject: "sleep the sleep of the just"
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.224758.0400.ABARAGONA@SPRYNET.COM>

Does anyone know the origin of the phrase "sleep the sleep of the just"?  It's not biblical or Shakespearean, it's not in Barlett's or The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations or several other dictionaries of quotations and phrases that I've checked.  "Ecclesiastes" says "the sleep of the labouring man is sweet," but that's as close as I can find to the sentiment, and it's not very close to the wording.

Alan Baragona


From hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun 30 02:55:58 2004
From: hwgray at EARTHLINK.NET (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 22:55:58 -0400
Subject: the thin line between error and mere variation II
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.225558.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's a case that may not be strictly germane to this discussion, but
others may find it interesting, regardless.

There are people who, in their unmonitored speech, always mispronounce a
given (class of) word. However, when this mispronunciation is called to
their attention, they deny that said mispronunciation is part of their
idiolect and "demonstrate" this by giving the word in question its
standard pronunciation. Then they go right back to their idiosyncratic
pronunciation. E.g.

A. I'm goin' up the skreek. You want anything?
B. Do you know that you always say "skreek" instead of "street"?
A. (Annoyed) What the hell are you talkin' about? I don't say "skreek"!
I say "street"!
B. Oh. Okay. My bad.
A. Like I said, I'm goin' up the skreek. You want anything?

-Wilson  Gray


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Jun 30 03:44:33 2004
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:44:33 -0400
Subject: "sleep the sleep of the just"
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.234433.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The New American Bible on-line includes the following verse (1 Samuel 2:8):

He raises the needy from the dust;
from the ash heap he lifts up the poor,
To seat them with nobles
and make a glorious throne their heritage.
He gives to the vower his vow,
and blesses the sleep of the just.
For the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S,
and he has set the world upon them.

Other Bibles don't include the phrase in question AFAIK.

According to various Web sites, the whole expression is attributed to
Racine (ca. 1693):

"Elle s'endormit du sommeil des justes"

(_Abrege de l'histoire de Port Royal_ IV:517, Mesnard ed.).

In English literature, this expression has meant two things, apparently:
(1) sleep well, (2) be dead [cf. "rest in peace", I guess].

-- Doug Wilson


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 30 03:51:23 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:51:23 -0700
Subject: Dogs of Language
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.205123.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

i have briefly fallen into a public discussion of talking dogs and
similar marvels.  i didn't subject y'all to this stuff, but if you're
interested, check out Dogs of Language, and More Dogs of Language, at
   http://www.languagelog.com

arnold


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Jun 30 03:51:56 2004
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 23:51:56 -0400
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <TUE.29.JUN.2004.235156.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Well, my OED says:  "The contracted pronunciation, which in other applications of the word has never been more than a vulgarism (see Missis), became, for the prefixed title, first a permitted colloquial license, and ultimately the only allowable pronunciation.  When this stage was reached, Mrs. (with the contracted pronunciation) became a distinct word from Mistress."

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Jesse Sheidlower
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 8:57 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Periods after abbreviations


"Mrs" isn't an abbreviation? Could have fooled me. I trusted
my trusty OED when it told me that it's shortened from
"mistress".


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Jun 30 05:12:54 2004
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:12:54 -0500
Subject: unobtanium
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.001254.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Michael Quinion did a column on unobtanium and handwavium.

http://www.quinion.com/words/weirdwords/ww-uno1.htm

I recently ran across baloneyum, and wishalloy.


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Wed Jun 30 10:29:45 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 11:29:45 +0100
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <E1Bf2PI-0007T7-00@rinka.central.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.112945.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Monday, June 28, 2004 2:49 pm -0400 Duane Campbell <dcamp911 at JUNO.COM>
wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:13:03 -0400 Damien Hall
> <halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU> writes:
>
>> For me, prescriptively, if I might be so bold, no abbreviation
>> should have a
>> period after it unless that period actually replaces letters, so
>> correct forms
>> are:
>>
>> Ms      [etc]
>
> Perhaps this is just to counterbalance the Brits' compulsive overuse of
> commas.

????  In my experience, Brits hardly use commas at all!!  Unlike Americans,
they don't use them before 'and' in lists, and, again unlike Americans,
they tend not to use them in pre-sentential adjuncts.  So British:

In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

And (at least my!) American style:

In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

I have a horrible time parsing my students' essays for this reason, but
I've learnt not to correct them on this point.  Like American students,
though, they love to put commas between long subjects and verbs (the 'where
you pause' rule of comma-putting), which I do correct mercilessly.

Lynne

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Wed Jun 30 11:40:42 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:40:42 -0400
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.074042.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Damien Hall halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU

<snip>

: ...It's also an absolute rule of British
: prescriptive grammar (though clearly 'prescriptive' may be a four-letter
: word on this listserv - perhaps we should all add it to our lists of
: words to be filtered out by spam filters, replacing 'fuck' in that list)
: that, in lists, the penultimate item never has a comma after it if there
: is also an 'and', whereas I note that in America all items in such lists
: are followed by commas...

Not true--i was explicitly taught (in the US), and have seen in usage
manuals, that the commas in such circumstances are optional, and it doesn't
matter which you use as long as you're consistent (though the Chicago Manual
prefers inclusion of the comma, with the stated reason being to avoid the
risk of ambiguity).

<snip>

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Wed Jun 30 11:46:28 2004
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:46:28 -0400
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 28 Jun 2004 to 29 Jun 2004 (#2004-182)
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.074628.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>

<snip>

: "Ms" on the other hand really isn't an abbreviation, and this,
: rather than any sense of British lack-of-periodness, is the
: secondary reason why I don't use a period after it.

Actually, "Ms" may not be an abbreviation for all (or at least most) of us
on this list, but i suggest that for many (if not most) real people, "Ms" is
an abbreviation for "Miss".

In fact, i know that that's what i thought it was until i was a few years
into grad school, even!

(I blame phonology--in my variety, word-final [z] just doesn't happen. This
made hearing the classic example of the plural marker changing in cases like
cat[s] vs. cad[z] a very bizarre experience, since it took me a long time to
even be able to *hear* the difference.)

Actually, as IIRC Dennis Preston pointed out at the ADS meeting in January
(in the Q&A session after Janet Fuller's presentation), for a lot of
speakers, "Mrs"/"Ms"/"Miss" are all homophonous--and, taking it further, are
possibly even processed as the same word.

<snip excellent last line>

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK  Wed Jun 30 11:59:40 2004
From: M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK (Lynne Murphy)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:59:40 +0100
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 28 Jun 2004 to 29 Jun 2004 (#2004-182)
In-Reply-To: <E1BfdXz-000569-00@rinka.central.susx.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.125940.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Wednesday, June 30, 2004 7:46 am -0400 David Bowie <db.list at PMPKN.NET>
wrote:

> Actually, "Ms" may not be an abbreviation for all (or at least most) of us
> on this list, but i suggest that for many (if not most) real people, "Ms"
> is an abbreviation for "Miss".
>
> In fact, i know that that's what i thought it was until i was a few years
> into grad school, even!


Part of the reason that some people think it's an abbreviation is that in
some dialects 'miss' sounds like 'miz'.  I once co-taught a course in
Illinois with someone who was called Ms X (not so much protecting the
innocent as that I can't remember her name).  She took a half week off, and
reappeared with a wedding ring.  After this, all of the students started
putting "Mrs X" on their essays.  She asked why, figuring (a) Ms is
marital-status-neutral, and (b) if they were going to call her Mrs
something, wouldn't they need to know her husband's surname?  This was a
foundation course, and the students were either from inner cities (mostly
African American) or very rural areas--both groups pronounced 'miss' as
'miz' and just thought that Ms was abbreviated Miss.  They were quite
surprised to learn otherwise.

Lynne


Dr M Lynne Murphy
Lecturer in Linguistics

Department of Linguistics and English Language
Arts B133
University of Sussex
Falmer
Brighton BN1 9QN
>>From UK:  (01273) 678844
Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Jun 30 13:59:57 2004
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:59:57 -0500
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
In-Reply-To: <00bf01c45e97$e2a4f2b0$f0fbaa84@BOWIE>
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.085957.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>: ...It's also an absolute rule of British
>: prescriptive grammar (though clearly 'prescriptive' may be a four-letter
>: word on this listserv - perhaps we should all add it to our lists of
>: words to be filtered out by spam filters, replacing 'fuck' in that list)
>: that, in lists, the penultimate item never has a comma after it if there
>: is also an 'and', whereas I note that in America all items in such lists
>: are followed by commas...
>
>Not true--i was explicitly taught (in the US), and have seen in usage
>manuals, that the commas in such circumstances are optional, and it doesn't
>matter which you use as long as you're consistent (though the Chicago Manual
>prefers inclusion of the comma, with the stated reason being to avoid the
>risk of ambiguity).
>
><snip>
>
>David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx


Well, that's new. I taught composition in the early 80s (in
Wisconsin) and the rule for commas was 0 or 2 between subject and
verb. My understanding was that in England, a single comma was
acceptable. But when I get books published in england with only one
comma, I have to put the other in, or it doesn't make sense!

Barbara


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun 30 14:29:29 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:29:29 -0400
Subject: Periods after abbreviations
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.102929.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

Slightly off topic but I always refer to another historical incident in the
poem. My version goes as follows:

In fourteen hundred and ninety two
Ferdinand and Isabella expelled the Jew.

You can look it up.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynne Murphy" <M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 6:29 AM
Subject: Re: Periods after abbreviations


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Lynne Murphy <M.L.Murphy at SUSSEX.AC.UK>
> Subject:      Re: Periods after abbreviations
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> --On Monday, June 28, 2004 2:49 pm -0400 Duane Campbell
<dcamp911 at JUNO.COM>
> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:13:03 -0400 Damien Hall
> > <halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU> writes:
> >
> >> For me, prescriptively, if I might be so bold, no abbreviation
> >> should have a
> >> period after it unless that period actually replaces letters, so
> >> correct forms
> >> are:
> >>
> >> Ms      [etc]
> >
> > Perhaps this is just to counterbalance the Brits' compulsive overuse of
> > commas.
>
> ????  In my experience, Brits hardly use commas at all!!  Unlike
Americans,
> they don't use them before 'and' in lists, and, again unlike Americans,
> they tend not to use them in pre-sentential adjuncts.  So British:
>
> In 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue.
>
> And (at least my!) American style:
>
> In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue.
>
> I have a horrible time parsing my students' essays for this reason, but
> I've learnt not to correct them on this point.  Like American students,
> though, they love to put commas between long subjects and verbs (the
'where
> you pause' rule of comma-putting), which I do correct mercilessly.
>
> Lynne
>
> Dr M Lynne Murphy
> Lecturer in Linguistics
>
> Department of Linguistics and English Language
> Arts B133
> University of Sussex
> Falmer
> Brighton BN1 9QN
> >From UK:  (01273) 678844
> Outside UK: +44-1273-678844


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Jun 30 15:57:10 2004
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:57:10 -0700
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 28 Jun 2004 to 29 Jun 2004 (#2004-182)
In-Reply-To: <00c001c45e97$e2b59480$f0fbaa84@BOWIE>
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.085710.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jun 30, 2004, at 4:46 AM, David Bowie wrote:

> ...Actually, "Ms" may not be an abbreviation for all (or at least
> most) of us
> on this list, but i suggest that for many (if not most) real people,
> "Ms" is
> an abbreviation for "Miss".
>
> In fact, i know that that's what i thought it was until i was a few
> years
> into grad school, even!
>
> (I blame phonology--in my variety, word-final [z] just doesn't happen.
> This
> made hearing the classic example of the plural marker changing in
> cases like
> cat[s] vs. cad[z] a very bizarre experience, since it took me a long
> time to
> even be able to *hear* the difference.)
>
> Actually, as IIRC Dennis Preston pointed out at the ADS meeting in
> January
> (in the Q&A session after Janet Fuller's presentation), for a lot of
> speakers, "Mrs"/"Ms"/"Miss" are all homophonous--and, taking it
> further, are
> possibly even processed as the same word.

putting aside the questions of whether it's an abbreviation and whether
you use a period, there are two issues here about "Ms.": how's it
pronounced? and how's it used?

for a lot of americans, there's a three-way distinction in
pronunciation: Mrs. [mIsIz] (or [mIs at z], where @ represents schwa), Ms.
[mIz] (or [m+z], where + represents barred i, as in some people's
pronunciation of the adverb "just"), Miss [mIs].  but for a variety of
reasons, Mrs. or Miss or both fall together with Ms. for some speakers
(as reported above).  australian speakers often report [@] or [^] for
Ms.; my 1981 Macquarie gives only [@], but a 2001 edition lists [@] and
[I].

as for usage, here's a posting i sent to soc.motss not long ago on this
question:
----------
From: zwicky at Turing.Stanford.EDU (Arnold Zwicky)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Ms. (was Re: Art Songs On The Rise?)
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 17:32:42 +0000 (UTC)

in article <cauijg$p97$1 at ctb-nnrp2.saix.net>, moira de swardt
<firstnameds at wol.co.za> refers to a cat:

> "maf&dog, inc. " <m at f.chezdog> wrote:

>> Does Ms. Kitty have a blanket for the basket?

> Miss.  Not Ms.  She's never going to be allowed to get from Miss to
> Ms.  I'm having her snipped before she becomes interesting to the boy
> cats.

there's no telling how language will change...

the title "Ms." achieved its widespread use as an exact parallel to
"Mr." -- a title that doesn't mark marital status.  in its most common
uses, it replaces both the marked terms, "Miss" and "Mrs.", although
most style sheets recommend the use of a marked term for a person who
prefers one of them (as women who have adopted their husband's family
name often do).

this last fact -- the use of "Mrs." for certain married women -- in
combination with a general feeling that "Miss" is old-fashioned, has
led to a not uncommon (but still, i think, minority) usage in which
"Ms." serves merely as a modern replacement for "Miss".  in this usage,
"Ms." at least implicates, if not actually entails, unmarried status.

moira seems to have a usage that is exactly the opposite of this: "Ms."
as a modern substitute for "Mrs.", implicating, if not actually
entailing, *married* status.  i can see how this might happen: serious
feminists advocated the title "Ms." and were responsible for its
widespread use, so that the title became associated with mature,
independent women of some gravitas.  then we have "Ms." (vs. "Miss") as
a marker of adulthood.  a marker of adulthood is always open to
shifting -- in the linguistics trade, we call this "metonymy" -- to
mark characteristics *associated with* adulthood: marriage and
parenthood, in particular.  (we have often remarked in these parts on
the extent to which our culture views single and/or childless people --
including most l&g folk -- as immature.)

since moira's posting is about a cat, a creature for which the notion
of "marriage" is necessarily metaphorical, i'm not entirely sure
whether her use of "Ms." covers married status, parenthood, or even
just sexual maturity (potential parenthood).  the question is how she
uses the title with reference to human beings.  i'm guessing that it
specifically marks married status.

[in a later posting, moira clarifies her usage:

It was related to the question of sexual maturity / parenthood.

With humans I tend to refer to children as "Miss", consistent with the
cat use, and all adult women of unknown preference as Ms. I tend to
refer to male children as "Master" and men as "Mister".

In my own life I use the title "Reverend" and otherwise prefer the
title "Ms."  I cope with "Miss".  I am divorced and use my maiden name.
  Of course, I suffer under the additional complication that "Swart" is
a common surname in South Africa, so "Miss de Swardt" has a strong
tendency to be interpreted as "Mr Swart", a particular problem when I
worked in a law office and people assumed that my female voice
obviously belonged to Mr Swart's secretary.]

[back to AMZ:]

if so, we have the maximally confused state, in which "Ms." is neutral
(for most people) with respect to marital status, marks (for a
significant number of others) specifically unmarried status, and marks
(for at least some others) specifically married status.  it's almost as
bad as the single-earring-for-men thing: is it a signifier of gayness
or just coolness or one or the other depending on which ear it's in,
and if its significance depends on the ear, which ear is which?  since
all logically possible systems seem to have arisen naturally, the
single earring no longer signifies much of anything.  i think it would
be a great shame if "Ms." went down this path to meaninglessness.

zotling, father of ms. elizabeth zwicky...
----------


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun 30 16:10:26 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:10:26 -0400
Subject: periods, capitilization, etc.
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.121026.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

as arnold continually reminds us in his uploads the lack of the use of
capital letters does not prevent us from understanding anything he writes

i am an anthropologist and not a linguist and as far as i am concerned the
use or non use of commas caps periods etc  tells us more about the
socio-cultural formations from which we came than they do about almost
anything else

anyone out there want to tell me no jokes please that they are not able to
understand anything I have written in this upload

page stephens

ps it is difficult to write something like this message since my spell
checker keeps telling me that caps should be inserted


From LJT777 at AOL.COM  Wed Jun 30 16:17:06 2004
From: LJT777 at AOL.COM (LJT777 at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:17:06 EDT
Subject: Ms.
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.121706.EDT.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My understanding has always been that Ms. is an abbreviation for Mistress and
was meant to replace Miss and Mrs. because a woman's title should be
independent of her relationship to a man through marriage. This put Ms. on a par with
Mr., both being abbreviations of titles that indicate only gender and not
marital status.  Ms. would, therefore, take a period.


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Jun 30 16:40:29 2004
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:40:29 -0400
Subject: Ms. [off topic]
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.124029.0400.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To LJT777 at aol.com and others,

Wouldn't it be nice if people with obscure e-mail addresses could sign
their name so we know whom we are addressing or about whom we are
talking/writing?

Flames may be sent to the address below:

barnhart at highlands.com

Respectfully submitted,

David K. Barnhart


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Jun 30 18:18:18 2004
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:18:18 -0400
Subject: Ms. [off topic]
Message-ID: <WED.30.JUN.2004.141818.0400.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

David,

For better or for worse everybody knows your and my name. I have never even
thought of disguising my name but thought better of it.

If I make an ass of myself then so be it but I will make an ass of myself
above my signature. It won't be the first time nor the last time that I have
made an ass of myself.

This brings up two topics for discussion on this list:. The first is why
anyone would choose to use a pseudonym on this list.

The second is there any pattern to the use of pseudonyms online and do the
people who use them use different pseudonyms on other lists?

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Barnhart" <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: Ms. [off topic]


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Ms. [off topic]
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> To LJT777 at aol.com and others,
>
> Wouldn't it be nice if people with obscure e-mail addresses could sign
> their name so we know whom we are addressing or about whom we are
> talking/writing?
>
> Flames may be sent to the address below:
>
> barnhart at highlands.com
>
> Respectfully submitted,
>
> David K. Barnhart