SUX

[Dennis R. Preston]

Ron's father; the usage I cited was my own (late 1940's early 1950's).

dInIs

PS: I'm often confused with Ron's father.



>Since I haven't seen Ron's paper yet, I somehow managed to overlook
>"ass is sucking/sucks wind" as a pejorative "suck" phrase.  Thanks
>to dInIs for reminding me.
>
>This one certainly carries the necesary offensive connotations,
>particularly since it also appears with "asshole" as a frequent
>variant.  It was also known prior to 1945, if WWII novelists can be
>trusted and presumably well before that if dInIs's recollections of
>his father's usage (not "hazy," I presume) are accurate.
>
>Yet Occam's Razor - not always trustworthy, but a useful starting
>point - suggests the following.  If "So-and-so sucks!" was a common
>men's room graffiti (and unless I'm really losing it it was); and if
>fellational utterances using the "s" word were known to be regarded
>as beyond the pale in everyday discourse; and if "suck" = be
>disgusting, etc. is first noticeable in the speech of tough-talking
>young men who prided themselves in disregarding conventional
>semantic "taboos"  (many GI's in Germany being virtual paradigm
>cases of this); and if "suck" was widely understood by first-time
>hearers as derived from fellatio; it would then seem inductively
>most likely that the sexual reference was indeed central. Unless, of
>course, better evidence of an as-yet unspecifiable kind is produced.
>
>Of course this is strongly subjective, but I cannot see "sucker,"
>etc., evolving into "You/he/she/it sucks" by any stretch of my
>imagination.  If, in fact, thatIS what happened, let me suggest that
>we would never know about it because almost as soon as the
>innovator(s) uttered the new phrase, their interlocutors would be
>most likely to misunderstand it as a reference to a societally
>reviled act.  Thus, the "semantic disconnect" would be so close the
>point of origin that the semantic origin should be impossible to
>determine.
>
>The verb in "suck wind," on the other hand, is at least to me a
>conceivable candidate, particularly since early published exx. tend
>to show it already being used figuratively to mean "be frightened"
>or "not know what you're talking about."  But if this were the true
>origin, we would expect to find early examples of the fuller phrase
>"*This/ That/ It really really sucks wind."
>
>Has anybody encountered such a usage?
>
>The principle Connie endorses is certainly correct in general. But
>in this case, I believe that sexual "suck" was, on available
>evidence, sufficient all by itself, in the social context of the
>fifties (not to mention earlier!) to generate "suck" = "be
>disgusting."  Any relationship to the correspondingly insufficient
>(in my view) "sucking wind" would be coincidental, though to some
>degree reinforcing.
>
>JL
>
>
>
>
>RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM
>Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20SUX?=
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>As Connie Eble points out in her book, it is rarely possible to point with=20
>certainty to one and only one origin for a slang term. The single-minded=20
>preoccupation that many people--especially straight people--have with fellat=
>io is=20
>somewhat amusing.
>
>I mention "your ass sucks wind" in my DICTIONARIES article, as a part of the=
>=20
>pre-1960s constelation of sucky words. I never heard the "sissy-stick"=20
>continuation. My father used the shorter version (born in Iowa whatever year=
>it was=20
>that the Titanic sank).
>
>In a message dated 9/27/04 10:54:30 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes:
>
>
>>  >OK, I'm old enough.
>>=20
>>  >I'm with Ron in this case (oh rarity!) in pointing to non-fellatio
>  > >pejorative "sucks", and not just those associated with "sucker,'
>>  >(i.e., one easily taken in).
>>=20
>>  One=A0 such usage, which dates to my early sporting life (basketball,
>>  football, baseball - that kind of sporting life) had to do with the
>  > out-of-shape kid who was left behind sucking wind (or air), surely a
>>  non-sexual a reference to gasping and always clearly negative.
>>=20
>>  I suspect such usage may have given rise to some more etymologically
>>  mysterious expressions of my youth (e.g., "Your ass sucks wind" often
>>  with the elaborate addition of "through a sissy-stick") [NB: Us
>>  he-boys of the Louisville area has a grade-school usage of "sissy"
>>  which had no sexual overtones, though a deeper look at it would
>>  reveal homophobic undercurrents; a "sissy-stick," by the way, was a
>>  straw; something a girl would drink from; a real he-boy would swig
>>  soft drink out of a bottle, of course.]
>>=20
>>  On the other hand, I do not doubt at all the contamination of other
>>  pejorative "sucks:" with oral sex "sucks," but, like Ron, I think we
>>  should be careful of jumping to this conclusion.
>>=20
>>  dInIs
>>=20
>>  PS: I haven't said "Your ass sucks wind through a sissy stick for
>>  more than fifty years. Thanks for the opportunity to remember.
>>  >
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>  >I started this thread to dredge up evidence concerning the early
>>  >career of a now salient Americanism.=A0 Are Wilson, Ron, and I really
>>  >the only ones aged enough to have something to contribute?
>>  >
>>  >That WOULD be scary.
>>  >
>>  >JL
>>  >
>>  >RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
>>  >---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>  >-----------------------
>>  >Sender: American Dialect Society
>>  >Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM
>>  >Subject: =3D?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=3D20=3DA0=3D20=3DA0=3D20=3DA0=3D20Re:=3D20S=
>UX?=3D
>>  >
>>  --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>-----
>>  >
>>  >In a message dated 9/26/04 8:55:35 PM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes:
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >>=A0 Even in the early to mid-90s when "suck"'s explosive force had been=20
>>  greatly
>>  >>=A0 weakened, some conservative parental groups objected to its occurren=
>ce=20
>>  on TV
>>  >>=A0 as just too vulgar for their homes. Members of these groups, I feel=20
>>  certain,
>>  >>=A0 were not thinking that it referred to "suckers," "sucker punches,"=20
>>  "sucking
>>  >>=A0 hind tit," or anything so bland as that.
>>  >>
>>  >
>>  >Precisely. But this sort of retro-association is not evidence of ORIGIN,=20
>>  any
>>  >more than any other folk etymology would be. Parents in general tend to=20
>>  assume
>>  >the worst about the practices of the young, if only to protect their
>>  >offspring from any possible infelicity.
>>  >
>>  >Similarly, putative etymologies based on it-stands-to-reason logic and ha=
>zy
>>  >remembrances of what one's reactions may have been to "as-I-recall"
>>  >writings on
>>  >public toilet walls are interesting as expressions of opinion, but they=20
>>  don't
>>  >really constitute scientific evidence, do they? The burden of proof, it=20
>>  seems
>>  >to me, must lie with those who would dismiss any connection with the
>>  >pejorative uses of SUCK that were already in the language in favor
>>  >of assertions of an
>>  >exclusive connection with fellatio. I certainly admit that such evidence
>>  >might be hard to come by, given the taboo nature of the proposed
>>  >origin and the
>>  >difficulty of finding evidence for early uses of ANY slang term. But the=20
>>  fact
>>  >that such evidence is not readily available is certainly not a valid reas=
>on=20
>>  to
>>  >conclude that it certainly must exist.
>>  >
>>  >__________________________________________________
>>  >Do You Yahoo!?
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>>=20
>>=20
>>  --
>>  Dennis R. Preston
>>  University Distinguished Professor
>>  Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
>>  =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Asian and African Languages
>>  Wells Hall A-740
>>  Michigan State University
>>  East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
>>  Office: (517) 353-0740
>>  Fax: (517) 432-2736
>>=20
>>=20
>
>
>---------------------------------
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--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736