/wh/ - /w/
Dennis R. Preston
preston at MSU.EDU
Wed Sep 29 01:46:34 UTC 2004
>Seriously, though, the whine/wine joke works only if there is ONE
>pronunciation. That's the basis of the joke, Standard speakers like
>me don;t get it because we have two pronunciations (unless I'm,
>missing something here).
Yes,Uranus (your anus) is quite a different matter. See my note on
Uranus (your anus) in a 12th Century issue of American Speech.
dInIs
dInIs
>For years I thought of my hw/w distinctiion as standard. Maybe the
>two of us together can start a movement to force the distinction into
>standardness. I sometimes wonder if a few people got together and did
>that with a lot of prescriptive rules. Never members of this group,
>of course.
>Seriously, though, would the wine/whine joke work if there were not
>two pronunciations? I will admit that aspiration is minor these days
>with [hw], but aren't there more jokes that are based on similarity in
>the sound of words rather than "complete" identity or true homophony.
>Something like that series of tasteless (and wonderful) jokes about
>the planet Uranus wouldn't work, would they, if there was one
>recognized pronunciation? I know this is a different issue in a lot
>of ways, but the point is that to have humor of the wine/whine sort
>both pronunciations have to be on the radar--so to speak. I contrast
>that humor with puns. Puns behave differently and aim for a different
>response, I think, maybe because of the identical nature of the two
>words.
>Lesa
>On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:59:09 -0400
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>> On Sep 28, 2004, at 4:35 PM, Lesa Dill wrote:
>>
>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> > -----------------------
>> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster: Lesa Dill <lesa.dill at WKU.EDU>
>> > Subject: Re: /wh/ - /w/
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
>----
>> > --------
>> >
>> > I've always done something strange with some [hw]/[w]
>distinctions. I
>> > have two words--one with [hw] for why and one with [w]. The first
>is
>> > a question, the second an exclamation as in "Why, lordy, what do
>ya'll
>> > mean?" I remember once talking about this in class to a group of
>wide-
>> > eyed linguistic students who always seemed to be wide-eyed about
>> > language use. Now I can explain that particular reaction on that
>> > particular occasion.
>> >
>> > Lesa
>>
>> I, too, make precisely this distinction. However, I don't think of it
>> as "strange." Rather, I think of it as the proper way to speak
>English.
>> Unfortunately, I lack the police power to enforce that opinion. [For
>> those readers lacking a sense of humor, I do but jest. As the sign
>on a
>> local pre-owned clothing store proclaims, "To each their own."]
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>> > On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:31:08 -0400
>> > "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:
>> >>> The poshness of /hw/-/w/ is odd to me too (since I had it
>nateral as
>> >>> a kid), but I came to learn later that many thought of it as a
>swell
>> >>> form (and have been teased mercilessly by my Milwaukee wife, who
>> >>> also mocks my /a/nvelope, /ku/pon, and pa/ja/mas).
>> >>
>> >> dInIs
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> Interesting. I would never consider the /hw/-/w/ distinction
>> >>> elitist. Exactly the opposite, in fact. I associate it with very
>> >>> old or rural people. For the most part, it's pretty much dead
>here
>> >>> in Oregon, exept from the two groups I mentioned above. Almost
>none
>> >>> of my students makes it and most of them don't even have any idea
>> >>> what I am talking about when we discuss it.
>> >>> Fritz
>> >>>>>> sod at LOUISIANA.EDU 09/28/04 07:55AM >>>
>> >>> I seem to regularly make the /hw/-/w/ distinction without
>> >>> even realizing it until my mortified middle-school-aged
>> >>> daughter cringes and criticizes me for speaking like an
>> >>> elitist...
>> >>>
>> >>> sally donlon
>> >>> (on the Third Coast in way South Louisiana)
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Dennis R. Preston wrote:
> > >>>
>> >>>> My nephews and nieces have also lost the good old
>> > Louisville /hw/ -
>> >>>> /w/ distinction, which was never mentioned in school in my day.
>> > Its
>> >>>> disappearance must have been being noticed (oh lovely verbal
>> > string!)
>> >>>> by the guardians of the local tongue.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Bowman Field! What a blast from the past!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> dInIs
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> In a message dated Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:27:40 -0400,
>> >>>>> "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU> writes:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Look like the old /hw/-/w/ jumped up. It bit me the other
>> > day. I was
>> >>>>>> out in the garden working and bitching and carrying on
>about
>> > how hard
>> >>>>>> I had it, etc... My neighbor said " You want some cheese
>and
>> > crackers
>> >>>>>> to go with that wine." Luckily my pragmatic organizer took
>> > over, and
>> >>>>>> I had to figure out why what he said make sense. Finally,
>of
>> > course,
>> >>>>>> I got to his "wine" - "whine" homophony.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> It's an old Jewish joke:
>> >>>>> What's a JAP's (Jewish-American Princess's) favorite
>wine?
>> >>>>> "Why can't we go to Miami this year?"
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I pronounce "wh" as /w/ and don't even hear /hw/ when someone
>> > uses
>> >>>>> it. I do
>> >>>>> remember elementary school teachers trying to teach us
>> > that "wh" is
>> >>>>> pronounced
>> >>>>> /hw/ but I don't recall any of my classmates taking this
>> > seriously.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Born and raised in the "Highlands" (East End) section of
>> > Louisville, near
>> >>>>> Bowman Field.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> - Jim Landau
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >
--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu
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