From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 00:13:51 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:13:51 -0800
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.161351.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Didn't Germaine Greer start the discusion in 1970 in "The Female Eunuch" ?

As for "frottist," it's not in the OED (got that, Jesse?) but its august pages do contain the synonymous "frotteur," and will tell you all you might wish to know on the subject.

JL

Susan Tamasi <stamasi at LINGUO.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Susan Tamasi
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was wondering if anyone could suggest some good articles to be used in a
discussion of euphemism or slang and sex/gender/sexuality. The specific
focus is open, but I'll mostly be discussing how terms for sex and sexuality
reflect a different view of men and women, such as playa vs. slut, or having
dozens of terms for male masturbation vs. about three for women, or why
slang terms for female genitalia are so much "dirtier" than for male
genitalia.

Also, can anyone give me a definition of "frottist"?

Thanks,
Susan

Susan Tamasi
Visiting Assistant Professor
Program in Linguistics
Emory University
404-727-7843


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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 00:17:40 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:17:40 -0800
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.161740.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That's "discussion" for all you obsessive compulsives.  Not that replying to my own posts counts as O-C.

JL

Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Jonathan Lighter
Subject: Re: articles on euphemisms for sex
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Didn't Germaine Greer start the discusion in 1970 in "The Female Eunuch" ?

As for "frottist," it's not in the OED (got that, Jesse?) but its august pages do contain the synonymous "frotteur," and will tell you all you might wish to know on the subject.

JL

Susan Tamasi wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Susan Tamasi
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was wondering if anyone could suggest some good articles to be used in a
discussion of euphemism or slang and sex/gender/sexuality. The specific
focus is open, but I'll mostly be discussing how terms for sex and sexuality
reflect a different view of men and women, such as playa vs. slut, or having
dozens of terms for male masturbation vs. about three for women, or why
slang terms for female genitalia are so much "dirtier" than for male
genitalia.

Also, can anyone give me a definition of "frottist"?

Thanks,
Susan

Susan Tamasi
Visiting Assistant Professor
Program in Linguistics
Emory University
404-727-7843


---------------------------------
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From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Feb  1 00:24:21 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:24:21 -0500
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
In-Reply-To: <47f243c441792055d1b51ea9e1a1f954@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.192421.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>It's usually "frotteurist," less rarely "frotterist" or "frottist":
>someone who takes an erotic thrill from rubbing others in a sexual way,
>usually in public and usually unbeknownst to, or out of control of, the
>frottee. From the French verb "frotter," 'to rub or rub against," I
>believe.

I would prefer "frotteur" for the person doing the frottage. Wikipedia
agrees with me as does RHUD. Presumably "frottist" is an exact synonym.

-- Doug Wilson


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Feb  1 00:25:43 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:25:43 -0800
Subject: diffuse/ defuse
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.162543.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry, I had a milllion messages in my box when I arrived at the office this morning--I should have read thru them before I replied to yours.
Fritz

>>> wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM 01/31/05 03:42PM >>>
I've already answered this one, Fritz....

JL

FRITZ JUENGLING <juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING
Subject: Re: diffuse/ defuse
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Didn't she say anything about 'write word'?

>>> wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM 01/29/05 02:58PM >>>
These verbs are increasingly confused in writing, with "defuse" threatening to oust the other.

Anyone else notice this?

I gave a high school English teacher the following inquisitorial test:

"Which is the write word? 'The ghostly vapor was slowly (diffused / defused) throughout the haunted tax office.'"

She immediately selected "defused" as correct. Under further inquisition she confessed that "diffused" just looked wrong."

E pede Herculem,

JL

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From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Feb  1 00:31:38 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:31:38 -0500
Subject: medicine show (1887)
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.193138.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Every evening at the tabernacle.  Indian acts every night; also lectures
and specialties.  Crowded houses and everybody pleased.  Dr. Frost and the
Indians will remain in Decatur several weeks.  Indian remedies give good
satisfaction.
"The Medicine Show," _Decatur Daily Review_, April 27, 1887, p 2


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Feb  1 00:35:48 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:35:48 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <20050131235951.81907.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.193548.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>So the big question is where to put the cross reference.  I guess it
>should be at "woof" and all cites at "wolf" - even though most of the
>published ones will be spelled "woof."

Why would the published ones be spelled "woof"? I never saw it spelled that
way in a book AFAIK.

Google shows "wolf ticket" outnumbering "woof ticket" on the Web.

N'archive shows > 100 examples with "wolf", zero with "woof".

What I want to know is whether the expression has a fixed definite meaning,
or group of meanings. I can't find it in my dictionaries at a glance, and I
don't trust "Urbandictionary" et al. I've taken it to mean
"falsehood"/"bullshit" but in some cases I couldn't tell.

-- Doug Wilson


From dave at WILTON.NET  Tue Feb  1 01:09:09 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:09:09 -0800
Subject: Per Vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20050201001740.78834.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.170909.0800.>

This is probably just a typo and not a linguistic trend, but I noted today
that one sign on the carpool lane of highway I-880 South in Fremont, CA
reads:

"Carpool is 2 persons per vehicles."

All the other signs I have seen (including the sign on the opposite side
facing I-880 North) use the singular "vehicle". What's really odd is that I
assume these signs are made in batches, but this appears to be the only one
with the plural "vehicles." Perhaps there are some others scattered across
California. The sign is identical to the others, with the exception of the
plural.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 01:59:47 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:59:47 -0800
Subject: "novel" = book-length prose account
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.175947.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This has been discussed before, but here is an indisputable citation from a professor of English literature.


"[Philip] Caputo's novel ["A Rumor of War"] is arguably the best US novel of the Vietnam War.  A USMC officer in the first US Marine brigade to arrive in Danang, Caputo's experience mirrors that of the whole country in the late 60's.
"Paper Two due at the end of this novel"

            ---Richard Schumaker, University of Maryland, European Division. http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~rschumak/    (then press "war and literature").

"A Rumor of War" (1977) is an autobiographical account, catalogued by the L of C under "Biography" and "Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975, Personal narratives--American."

JL







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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  1 03:04:57 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:04:57 -0500
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
In-Reply-To: <E1Cvk5k-0004na-00@mx13.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.220457.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You guys must be a little bit on the young side. Or perhaps you aren't
fortunate enough to have had a psychiatric social worker as a mother.
There is much knowledge to be gleaned from even the most casual perusal
of the library of such a person.

In the '40's, "frotteur" was the only term used for a male of this
persuasion in books easily available to the enquiring mind of your
humble correspondent. In like manner, "frotteuse" was the term applied
to a "common night walker" whose specialty was, well, the hand job.
Apparently, if memory serves, this erotic specialty was already a dying
art in its death throes, even in those days, in the United States, at
least. Probably as a consequence of the Yankee "can-do" attitude that
introduced the concept "do-it-yourself" to the world. These same books
used the terms "cunnilinctus" and "anilinctus" instead of "cunnilingus"
and "anilingus." They also introduced me to "irrumation" and related
terms, which are in the on-line OED, but are missing from the 1971
edition of the unabridged RHD, the most recent such hard-copy
dictionary to which I have easy access.

-Wilson Gray


On Jan 31, 2005, at 5:32 PM, Grant Barrett wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Grant Barrett <gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG>
> Subject:      Re: articles on euphemisms for sex
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Jan 31, 2005, at 17:03, Susan Tamasi wrote:
>> Also, can anyone give me a definition of "frottist"?
>
> It's usually "frotteurist," less rarely "frotterist" or "frottist":
> someone who takes an erotic thrill from rubbing others in a sexual way,
> usually in public and usually unbeknownst to, or out of control of, the
> frottee. From the French verb "frotter," 'to rub or rub against," I
> believe.
>
> Google "frotteurist" for more than you ever wanted to know about it.
> The Wikipedia entry is decent:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frottage_%28sexology%29
>
> Grant Barrett
> gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  1 03:07:27 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:07:27 -0500
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
In-Reply-To: <20050201001352.93779.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.220727.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:13 PM -0800 1/31/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Didn't Germaine Greer start the discusion in 1970 in "The Female Eunuch" ?
>
>As for "frottist," it's not in the OED (got that, Jesse?) but its
>august pages do contain the synonymous "frotteur," and will tell you
>all you might wish to know on the subject.
>
>JL

In French, of course, those who do so and are of the female
persuasion are "frotteuses" rather than "frotteurs", but this
distinction tends not to be retained in English (to judge from both
my intuition and google).  "Masseuse" gets regularized in the
opposite direction; I've noticed many a reference to a "male
masseuse".  Markedness strikes again!

Larry, who has certainly encountered web sites with a LOT more than
three terms for female masturbation, although how many of them are in
regular use is not clear (to me, anyway).  Cf. e.g.
http://www.worldwidewank.com/synonyms3.html for a hundred or so, or
just google "female masturbation terms" for other lists.  Granted,
some of the lingo seems a bit...recherché.

>
>Susan Tamasi <stamasi at LINGUO.NET> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Susan Tamasi
>Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I was wondering if anyone could suggest some good articles to be used in a
>discussion of euphemism or slang and sex/gender/sexuality. The specific
>focus is open, but I'll mostly be discussing how terms for sex and sexuality
>reflect a different view of men and women, such as playa vs. slut, or having
>dozens of terms for male masturbation vs. about three for women, or why
>slang terms for female genitalia are so much "dirtier" than for male
>genitalia.
>
>Also, can anyone give me a definition of "frottist"?
>
>Thanks,
>Susan
>
>Susan Tamasi
>Visiting Assistant Professor
>Program in Linguistics
>Emory University
>404-727-7843
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From Larry at SCROGGS.COM  Tue Feb  1 03:25:59 2005
From: Larry at SCROGGS.COM (Larry Scroggs)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:25:59 -0700
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.202559.0700.LARRY@SCROGGS.COM>

----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan Lighter
To: larry at scroggs.com
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: Children's chant


What were those different versions of "Inky Dinky," Larry?  And where did
you hear about them.
  I am looking into the origins and career of this very song.

JL

Larry Scroggs <larry at SCROGGS.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Larry Scroggs
Subject: Children's chant
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---

Heard at my school in the late 1950s.

Whistle while you work
Khrushchev is a jerk
Eisenhower's got the power
But it doesn't work.

I scream
You scream
We all scream
For ice cream

The first Marine went over the wall
Parle vous
The second Marine went over the wall
Parle vous
The third Marine went over the wall
Got hit in the ass by a cannon ball
Inkey dinkey parle vous
(There were several different verses of this)

Larry
Larry at Scroggs.com

Jonathan

I'm a military brat and I first recall singing these in seventh and eighth
grade when we were stationed at an Air Force base in northern Maine in the
late 50s. This was pretty risque language for us back then and we were
careful where we sang the verses. I particularly remember singing them on
Scout trips. All of our Scout leaders were military men and usually didn't
say much about our language. However they were irritated when we repeated
the verses over and over again. (grin) The verses are obviously military in
origin and and as I recall we just learned them from each other. They were
just verses that kids taught each other. Here are some more I can recall but
I'm sure there were many others. It has been almost fifty years ago.

The first Marine climbed up the tree
Parlez vous
The second Marine climbed up the tree
Parlez vous
The third Marine climbed up the tree
Got stung on the ass by a bumble bee
Inkey dinkey parlez vous

The first Marine he found the bean
Parlez vous
The second Marine he cooked the bean
Parlez vous
The third Marine he ate the bean
And shit all over the submarine
Inkey dinkey parlez vous

The first Marine went over the wall
Parlez vous
The second Marine went over the wall
Parlez vous
The third Marine he stayed behind
Fucked the girls and drank the wine
Inkey dinkey parlez vous

Larry
Larry at Scroggs.com


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  1 03:46:12 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:46:12 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <E1Cvm17-0002Ti-00@mx17.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.224612.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Back in the day - mid '60's - when this was a relatively (I never
really dug this expression) active part of my vocabulary, it meant
roughly "to make an empty threat designed to frighten away the unhip."
It's easy to see how this could come to mean to bullshit someone.

  BTW, by this time, in L.A., at least, "square" had ceased to be a word
applied to the unhip in general. Rather, it was applied to those unhip
to whatever the speaker was hip to. Those in the (sporting) life
referred to all others in the demimonde as "squares." Dealers referred
to users as squares. Dopers referred to winos as squares. Winos
referred to dopers as squares.

The hip may recall Richard Pryor's bit in which a wino downs a doper by
saying him, "That narcotic done rendered your ass null and void." (It
helps if you're old enough to remember: "Do not fold, spindle, or
mutilate! Any such action will render this instrument null and void."
Or words to that effect.)

-Wilson Gray


On Jan 31, 2005, at 7:35 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
> Subject:      Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> So the big question is where to put the cross reference.  I guess it
>> should be at "woof" and all cites at "wolf" - even though most of the
>> published ones will be spelled "woof."
>
> Why would the published ones be spelled "woof"? I never saw it spelled
> that
> way in a book AFAIK.
>
> Google shows "wolf ticket" outnumbering "woof ticket" on the Web.
>
> N'archive shows > 100 examples with "wolf", zero with "woof".
>
> What I want to know is whether the expression has a fixed definite
> meaning,
> or group of meanings. I can't find it in my dictionaries at a glance,
> and I
> don't trust "Urbandictionary" et al. I've taken it to mean
> "falsehood"/"bullshit" but in some cases I couldn't tell.
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Feb  1 03:46:17 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:46:17 EST
Subject: "Why make one woman miserable?" (1929, 1937, 1943?)
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.224617.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's the classic statement for bachelorhood. Why make one woman miserable  
when you can make a hundred women happy?
...
Except in my case. Why make one woman miserable when you can make no woman  
miserable?
...
The line was widely heard in the 1960s. I remember it attached to Joe  Namath 
of the New York Jets.
...
It appears to have come from the movies. (I don't have the scripts before  
me.) THE LAST OF MRS. CHEYNEY was made in 1929 and again in 1937. HEAVEN CAN  
WAIT was made in 1943. It appears that both movies used the line, with HEAVEN  
CAN WAIT giving it the form that it popularly has.
...
...
...
(GOOGLE)
_Quotes_ (http://xepher.net/~dcbueller/quotes.htm) 
... I think I know where  my bad memory comes from, hehe. Why make one  woman
miserable when you can make thousands happy? - Anonymous  ... 
xepher.net/~dcbueller/quotes.htm - 25k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:kcYgPkHjj3kJ:xepher.net/~dcbueller/quotes.htm+"one+woman+miserable"&
hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:xepher.net/~dcbueller/quotes.htm)  
...
(GOOGLE)
_One-Liner Archive 1_ (http://www.mcewan001.freeserve.co.uk/oneline.html) 
... Why get  married and make one woman miserable, when you can stay  foot 
loose
and fancy free and make thousands fuckin' miserable! ...  
www.mcewan001.freeserve.co.uk/oneline.html - 56k -  Supplemental Result - 
_Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Wh3MEnv21FsJ:www.mcewan001.freeserve.co.uk/oneline.html+"one+woman+miserable"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.mcewan001.frees
erve.co.uk/oneline.html)  
..
...
(GOOGLE)
_http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/english/ma/marrying.html
_ 
(http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/english/ma/marrying.html) 
...
By marrying I can make only one woman miserable. (_The Last of Mrs. Cheyney_ 
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=icongroupinterna&keyword
=Last of Mrs. Cheyney, The&mode=dvd) ; writing credit: Hanns Kr䬹; Frederick  
Lonsdale)
...
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
     _Nevada State Journal _ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=thiGuD36VKiKID/6NLMW2k+T0Y1h9mbngOrm+r1/4ovLnesTayQdBg==)  Saturday, January 
08, 1944 _Reno,_ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:reno+one+woman+miserable)  _Nevada_ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nevada+one+woman+miserable)      ...bachelor. Why should I make  
ONE WOMAN MISERABLE, when I can stay single.....out  Jf the scenes in 1918. 
This is ONE el the first movies where  the..
Pg. 8, col. 2:
"The picture I like best was 'Heaven Can Wait', because it reminded me of  
parts of my own life. I don't care for Don Ameche or Gene Tierney, but I liked  
the old-fashioned atmosphere, and I liked the way Don made so many women 
happy.  Like me. I'm a perennial bachelor. Why should I make one woman miserable, 
when I  can stay single and make lots of women happy>"
...
...
     _Clearfield Progress _ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=e0sfgs8TnFyKID/6NLMW2hqQQ2ydsVgqGxyQM3+TMUemvP4cXiVJ4UIF+CsZYmrz)  Saturday, 
October 08, 1927 _Clearfield,_ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:clearfield+one+woman+miserable)  _Pennsylvania_ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+one+woman+miserable)      
...women happy for a little  while and ONE WOMAN MISERABLE for life. For,  ONE 
kiss.....it is ONE man's metier to make ONE  WOMAN happy for life, ami  
another..
Pg. 4. col. 2:
For, verily, verily, unto every man his mission!
...
And per adventure, it is one man's metier to make one woman happy for life,  
and another man's appointed task to make all women happy for a little while 
and  one woman miserable for life.diof a Married Woman by Helen Rowland--ed.)
...
...
     _Frederick Post _ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2oy7tVp81eoBeb8h4w5+FLtWDG4MEEanEkIF+CsZYmrz)  Wednesday, April 
26, 1995 _Frederick,_ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:frederick+one+woman+miserable)  _Maryland_ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+one+woman+miserable)      ...Why should he 
marry and  make ONE WOMAN MISERABLE, when he can remain.....the  golden years 
culture. On the ONE hand, some retirees need work  to..


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  1 04:04:39 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:04:39 -0500
Subject: Children's chant
In-Reply-To: <20050131201436.58660.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.230439.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:14 PM -0800 1/31/05, Larry Scroggs wrote:
>Heard at my school in the late 1950s.
>
>Whistle while you work
>Khrushchev is a jerk
>Eisenhower's got the power
>But it doesn't work.
>
In the earlier 50s it was still (at least in what we now call blue states)

Whistle while you work
Hitler was a jerk
Mussolini bit his weenie,
And now it doesn't work.

(Never clear to me whether it was Hitler's weenie or Mussolini's own
that was rendered dysfunctional.)

and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,

Hitler # had only one, left ball,
Goering #  had two but they were small.
Himmler #  had something similar,
And Goebbals
Had no balls
At all.

(# indicates caesura; much discussion of first line, and variations,
accessible from archives)

Larry Horn


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  1 04:09:25 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:09:25 -0500
Subject: n-heads
In-Reply-To: <E1Cvo3Q-0001eh-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.230925.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jan 30, 2005, at 10:50 PM, Michael McKernan wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Michael McKernan <mckernan at LOCALNET.COM>
> Subject:      n-heads
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> ROCHESTER UNION-SPY - Friday, March 17, 1871
> [Rochester, Indiana]
>
> http://www.fulco.lib.in.us/genealogy/Tombaugh/Newspaper%20Excerpts/
> Html/Newspape
> rs%201871-72.htm
>
>
>> CHRIS. HOOVER intends to have a good foundation under the brick house
>> he
>> proposes to erect on the corner of Jefferson and Meridian streets. He
>> has
>> collected a big pile of niggerheads for that purpose.
>
> Michael McKernan
>

So, it's also the name of something used in construction. Any idea what
it was? FWIW, my 1971 RHD defines "niggerhead" only as a nautical term
meaning "gypsyhead." Period. Was there really a time in this country
when ethnic and racial slurs were so common that a professional
lexicographer felt free to define one slur by another slur, without the
need for further explanation? Clearly, there was.

-Wilson Gray


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 04:11:29 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:11:29 -0800
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.201129.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One suspects that the term "frottist" has been popularized because "frotteur" and "frotteuse" are gender-specific and too hard to spell.

JL

Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: articles on euphemisms for sex
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 4:13 PM -0800 1/31/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Didn't Germaine Greer start the discusion in 1970 in "The Female Eunuch" ?
>
>As for "frottist," it's not in the OED (got that, Jesse?) but its
>august pages do contain the synonymous "frotteur," and will tell you
>all you might wish to know on the subject.
>
>JL

In French, of course, those who do so and are of the female
persuasion are "frotteuses" rather than "frotteurs", but this
distinction tends not to be retained in English (to judge from both
my intuition and google). "Masseuse" gets regularized in the
opposite direction; I've noticed many a reference to a "male
masseuse". Markedness strikes again!

Larry, who has certainly encountered web sites with a LOT more than
three terms for female masturbation, although how many of them are in
regular use is not clear (to me, anyway). Cf. e.g.
http://www.worldwidewank.com/synonyms3.html for a hundred or so, or
just google "female masturbation terms" for other lists. Granted,
some of the lingo seems a bit...recherch�.

>
>Susan Tamasi wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Susan Tamasi
>Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I was wondering if anyone could suggest some good articles to be used in a
>discussion of euphemism or slang and sex/gender/sexuality. The specific
>focus is open, but I'll mostly be discussing how terms for sex and sexuality
>reflect a different view of men and women, such as playa vs. slut, or having
>dozens of terms for male masturbation vs. about three for women, or why
>slang terms for female genitalia are so much "dirtier" than for male
>genitalia.
>
>Also, can anyone give me a definition of "frottist"?
>
>Thanks,
>Susan
>
>Susan Tamasi
>Visiting Assistant Professor
>Program in Linguistics
>Emory University
>404-727-7843
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  1 04:16:33 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:16:33 -0500
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
In-Reply-To: <20050201041129.72056.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.231633.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:11 PM -0800 1/31/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>One suspects that the term "frottist" has been popularized because
>"frotteur" and "frotteuse" are gender-specific and too hard to spell.
>
>JL

Mebbe so, but one doesn't want to predict the popularization of "massist".

L

>Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Laurence Horn
>Subject: Re: articles on euphemisms for sex
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>At 4:13 PM -0800 1/31/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>Didn't Germaine Greer start the discusion in 1970 in "The Female Eunuch" ?
>>
>>As for "frottist," it's not in the OED (got that, Jesse?) but its
>>august pages do contain the synonymous "frotteur," and will tell you
>>all you might wish to know on the subject.
>>
>>JL
>
>In French, of course, those who do so and are of the female
>persuasion are "frotteuses" rather than "frotteurs", but this
>distinction tends not to be retained in English (to judge from both
>my intuition and google). "Masseuse" gets regularized in the
>opposite direction; I've noticed many a reference to a "male
>masseuse". Markedness strikes again!


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 04:27:44 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:27:44 -0800
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.202744.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There was also, "You ain't just a woofin'!" I.e., "not just whistlin' Dixie!"

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back in the day - mid '60's - when this was a relatively (I never
really dug this expression) active part of my vocabulary, it meant
roughly "to make an empty threat designed to frighten away the unhip."
It's easy to see how this could come to mean to bullshit someone.

BTW, by this time, in L.A., at least, "square" had ceased to be a word
applied to the unhip in general. Rather, it was applied to those unhip
to whatever the speaker was hip to. Those in the (sporting) life
referred to all others in the demimonde as "squares." Dealers referred
to users as squares. Dopers referred to winos as squares. Winos
referred to dopers as squares.

The hip may recall Richard Pryor's bit in which a wino downs a doper by
saying him, "That narcotic done rendered your ass null and void." (It
helps if you're old enough to remember: "Do not fold, spindle, or
mutilate! Any such action will render this instrument null and void."
Or words to that effect.)

-Wilson Gray


On Jan 31, 2005, at 7:35 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> So the big question is where to put the cross reference. I guess it
>> should be at "woof" and all cites at "wolf" - even though most of the
>> published ones will be spelled "woof."
>
> Why would the published ones be spelled "woof"? I never saw it spelled
> that
> way in a book AFAIK.
>
> Google shows "wolf ticket" outnumbering "woof ticket" on the Web.
>
> N'archive shows > 100 examples with "wolf", zero with "woof".
>
> What I want to know is whether the expression has a fixed definite
> meaning,
> or group of meanings. I can't find it in my dictionaries at a glance,
> and I
> don't trust "Urbandictionary" et al. I've taken it to mean
> "falsehood"/"bullshit" but in some cases I couldn't tell.
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Feb  1 04:31:31 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:31:31 -0500
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
In-Reply-To: <20050201041129.72056.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.233131.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>One suspects that the term "frottist" has been popularized because
>"frotteur" and "frotteuse" are gender-specific and too hard to spell.

I don't think "frottist" is common or popular ... probably an occasional
variant or outright error.

Google (searching the WWCE, the Worldwide Web of Crass Errors) finds four
hits for "frottist", vs. a raw number of 5900 for "frotteur". There are 13
English-language hits for "frotteuse", a word which I don't remember ever
seeing before today.

In my experience "frotteur" and "frottage" usually do not refer to sexual
rubbing in general (very conventional!) but to a person (usually a man) who
rubs his body against strangers on a train or bus or something like that,
presumably as a 'sexual' activity.

-- Doug Wilson


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 04:34:58 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:34:58 -0800
Subject: n-heads
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.203458.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It also means 1) a hummock covered thickly with grass or weeds; 2) a dark-colored stone or boulder.  My guess is that Hoover was collecting rocks and stones, but other suggestions are welcome.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: n-heads
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jan 30, 2005, at 10:50 PM, Michael McKernan wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Michael McKernan
> Subject: n-heads
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> ROCHESTER UNION-SPY - Friday, March 17, 1871
> [Rochester, Indiana]
>
> http://www.fulco.lib.in.us/genealogy/Tombaugh/Newspaper%20Excerpts/
> Html/Newspape
> rs%201871-72.htm
>
>
>> CHRIS. HOOVER intends to have a good foundation under the brick house
>> he
>> proposes to erect on the corner of Jefferson and Meridian streets. He
>> has
>> collected a big pile of niggerheads for that purpose.
>
> Michael McKernan
>

So, it's also the name of something used in construction. Any idea what
it was? FWIW, my 1971 RHD defines "niggerhead" only as a nautical term
meaning "gypsyhead." Period. Was there really a time in this country
when ethnic and racial slurs were so common that a professional
lexicographer felt free to define one slur by another slur, without the
need for further explanation? Clearly, there was.

-Wilson Gray

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Tue Feb  1 04:44:01 2005
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:44:01 -0600
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.224401.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The first Marine went over the ditch
Parle vous
The second Marine went over the ditch
Parle vous
The third Marine fell in the ditch
And called the captain a son of a bitch
Hinkey dinkey parle vous

Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Scroggs" <larry at SCROGGS.COM>


Heard at my school in the late 1950s.


The first Marine went over the wall
Parle vous
The second Marine went over the wall
Parle vous
The third Marine went over the wall
Got hit in the ass by a cannon ball
Inkey dinkey parle vous
(There were several different verses of this)

Larry
Larry at Scroggs.com


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Feb  1 05:29:59 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:29:59 -0600
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.232959.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another kid's song, to Col Bogey's March:

Comet # will make your face turn green
Comet # smells like Gasoline
Comet # will make you vomit
So get some Comet
And Vomit
Today

(Comet is the kitchen cleaning powder)


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Laurence Horn
Sent: Mon 1/31/2005 10:04 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Children's chant


and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,

Hitler # had only one, left ball,
Goering #  had two but they were small.
Himmler #  had something similar,
And Goebbals
Had no balls
At all.

(# indicates caesura; much discussion of first line, and variations,
accessible from archives)

Larry Horn


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  1 05:11:17 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:11:17 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <E1Cvpdj-0006Me-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.001117.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't think that I've ever heard that one, but I was never down with
"wolf/woof" from the BE-gin-nin. When I was in the Army, "You ain't
just a-bird-turdin'!" was used with that meaning by Southern-white
GI's. Pretty cool, considering the source.

BTW, on a reality show, I heard a black woman say, "That sucks!" A
first for me. Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it." Back in '54, we used to
say: "It's your world. Just let me live," in response to the greeting,
"Whassapnin?," the "Whussup" of the '50's through the '90's.

-Wilson Gray

On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:27 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> There was also, "You ain't just a woofin'!" I.e., "not just whistlin'
> Dixie!"
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Back in the day - mid '60's - when this was a relatively (I never
> really dug this expression) active part of my vocabulary, it meant
> roughly "to make an empty threat designed to frighten away the unhip."
> It's easy to see how this could come to mean to bullshit someone.
>
> BTW, by this time, in L.A., at least, "square" had ceased to be a word
> applied to the unhip in general. Rather, it was applied to those unhip
> to whatever the speaker was hip to. Those in the (sporting) life
> referred to all others in the demimonde as "squares." Dealers referred
> to users as squares. Dopers referred to winos as squares. Winos
> referred to dopers as squares.
>
> The hip may recall Richard Pryor's bit in which a wino downs a doper by
> saying him, "That narcotic done rendered your ass null and void." (It
> helps if you're old enough to remember: "Do not fold, spindle, or
> mutilate! Any such action will render this instrument null and void."
> Or words to that effect.)
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> On Jan 31, 2005, at 7:35 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
>> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>>> So the big question is where to put the cross reference. I guess it
>>> should be at "woof" and all cites at "wolf" - even though most of the
>>> published ones will be spelled "woof."
>>
>> Why would the published ones be spelled "woof"? I never saw it spelled
>> that
>> way in a book AFAIK.
>>
>> Google shows "wolf ticket" outnumbering "woof ticket" on the Web.
>>
>> N'archive shows > 100 examples with "wolf", zero with "woof".
>>
>> What I want to know is whether the expression has a fixed definite
>> meaning,
>> or group of meanings. I can't find it in my dictionaries at a glance,
>> and I
>> don't trust "Urbandictionary" et al. I've taken it to mean
>> "falsehood"/"bullshit" but in some cases I couldn't tell.
>>
>> -- Doug Wilson
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


From stevec at TOPDOGSTRATEGY.COM  Tue Feb  1 05:14:57 2005
From: stevec at TOPDOGSTRATEGY.COM (Steve Clason)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:14:57 -0700
Subject: n-heads
In-Reply-To: <200501312109823.SM00880@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.221457.0700.>

On 1/31/2005 9:09 PM Wilson Gray wrote:

> So, it's also the name of something used in construction. Any idea what
> it was? FWIW, my 1971 RHD defines "niggerhead" only as a nautical term
> meaning "gypsyhead." Period. Was there really a time in this country
> when ethnic and racial slurs were so common that a professional
> lexicographer felt free to define one slur by another slur, without the
> need for further explanation? Clearly, there was.

In the mid-'70s on the North Slope in Alaska "niggerhead" referred to
hummocks (tussocks?) of grass that grew about 8" in diameter, 10-12"
high, spaced 6" or so apart. They covered acres and acres and were very
difficult to traverse by any means. USGS Topographical maps indicated
them with the very word.

--
Steve Clason


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  1 05:28:24 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:28:24 -0500
Subject: n-heads
In-Reply-To: <E1Cvpkx-0007Cb-00@mx04.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.002824.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:34 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: n-heads
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> It also means 1) a hummock covered thickly with grass or weeds; 2) a
> dark-colored stone or boulder.  My guess is that Hoover was collecting
> rocks and stones, but other suggestions are welcome.
>
> JL

Definition 2) seems to be the relevant one, in this case.

-Wilson

>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: n-heads
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Jan 30, 2005, at 10:50 PM, Michael McKernan wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Michael McKernan
>> Subject: n-heads
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> ROCHESTER UNION-SPY - Friday, March 17, 1871
>> [Rochester, Indiana]
>>
>> http://www.fulco.lib.in.us/genealogy/Tombaugh/Newspaper%20Excerpts/
>> Html/Newspape
>> rs%201871-72.htm
>>
>>
>>> CHRIS. HOOVER intends to have a good foundation under the brick house
>>> he
>>> proposes to erect on the corner of Jefferson and Meridian streets. He
>>> has
>>> collected a big pile of niggerheads for that purpose.
>>
>> Michael McKernan
>>
>
> So, it's also the name of something used in construction. Any idea what
> it was? FWIW, my 1971 RHD defines "niggerhead" only as a nautical term
> meaning "gypsyhead." Period. Was there really a time in this country
> when ethnic and racial slurs were so common that a professional
> lexicographer felt free to define one slur by another slur, without the
> need for further explanation? Clearly, there was.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Feb  1 05:14:30 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:14:30 EST
Subject: Woman, Dog, and Hickory Tree (1909)
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.001430.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 1/31/2005 7:04:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
grinchy at GRINCHY.COM writes:

Barry,

This old chestnut goes way back:

A woman, a  spaniel, and walnut tree,
The more you beat them, the better they  be.

Brewer's Readers Handbook (1897) attributes it to John Taylor  "The
Water Poet"  (1630).

Erik
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Thanks. I don't know when my 1840s cite source is from, but I don't think
it's 1630.
...
Barry


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Feb  1 05:16:31 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:16:31 -0800
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050131232124.02f9dd70@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.211631.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jan 31, 2005, at 8:31 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> ...In my experience "frotteur" and "frottage" usually do not refer to
> sexual
> rubbing in general (very conventional!)...

in my experience they do.  frottage is one of what i think of as the
Four Ways and Places for gay men: on the body, in the hand, in the
mouth, in the ass.  very safe, and easily allows for lots of affection.
  it's practically decorous.

of course, other people's mileages certainly vary.

arnold


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  1 05:21:25 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:21:25 -0500
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
In-Reply-To: <E1Cvpi0-00014k-00@mx08.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.002125.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:31 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
> Subject:      Re: articles on euphemisms for sex
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> One suspects that the term "frottist" has been popularized because
>> "frotteur" and "frotteuse" are gender-specific and too hard to spell.
>
> I don't think "frottist" is common or popular ... probably an
> occasional
> variant or outright error.
>
> Google (searching the WWCE, the Worldwide Web of Crass Errors) finds
> four
> hits for "frottist", vs. a raw number of 5900 for "frotteur". There
> are 13
> English-language hits for "frotteuse", a word which I don't remember
> ever
> seeing before today.
>
> In my experience "frotteur" and "frottage" usually do not refer to
> sexual
> rubbing in general (very conventional!) but to a person (usually a
> man) who
> rubs his body against strangers on a train or bus or something like
> that,
> presumably as a 'sexual' activity.
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>

"In your _expereience_?! Jeez, Doug!  How about using a little
discretion?! That's too much information! In any case, I agree with the
general thrust of your last paragraph and add that copping a feel under
the circumstances described is usually also considered to be an
instance of frottage.

-Wilson Gray


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Feb  1 05:38:37 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:38:37 -0600
Subject: n-heads
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.233837.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One wonders what people will look back on, a hundred years from now, in
amazement at our lack of sensistivity.

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray
Sent: Mon 1/31/2005 10:09 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: n-heads
 
 Was there really a time in this country
when ethnic and racial slurs were so common that a professional
lexicographer felt free to define one slur by another slur, without the
need for further explanation? Clearly, there was.


From sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM  Tue Feb  1 05:47:49 2005
From: sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM (Chuck Borsos)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:47:49 -0800
Subject: Children's chant
In-Reply-To: <l03130304be236fa16d2f@[66.153.101.133]>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.214749.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(to the tune of Battle Hymn of the Republic)


Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school
Where they tortured all the teachers and they broke all the rules
They broke into the office and they killed the principal
As we go marching on

Glory Glory what's it to ya
Teacher hit me with a ruler
I hit her in the bean with a rotten tangerine
As we go marching on


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Feb  1 05:58:44 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:58:44 -0600
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.235844.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Nashville version, ca. 1970:


Glory Glory hallelujah
Teacher hit me with a ruler
I stood behind the door with a loaded .44,
and there ain't no teacher no more

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Chuck Borsos
Sent: Mon 1/31/2005 11:47 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Children's chant
 
(to the tune of Battle Hymn of the Republic)

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school
Where they tortured all the teachers and they broke all the rules
They broke into the office and they killed the principal
As we go marching on

Glory Glory what's it to ya
Teacher hit me with a ruler
I hit her in the bean with a rotten tangerine
As we go marching on


From dlw3208 at LOUISIANA.EDU  Tue Feb  1 05:56:41 2005
From: dlw3208 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Wells Darla L)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:56:41 -0600
Subject: "Why make one woman miserable?" (1929, 1937, 1943?)
In-Reply-To: <200502010346.j113kW12019694@bp.ucs.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.235641.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:46:17 EST, Bapopik wrote
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -------------------
----
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      "Why make one woman miserable?" (1929, 1937, 1943?)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Wanda Sykes, the standup comedienne, took this expression and modified it.
She was talking about men who want sex with two women. Her reply to that
was "Why make one woman miserable, when you can piss off two?
DWells


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb  1 06:08:10 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 01:08:10 -0500
Subject: pay-for-say, pay-to-say, pay-to-pander (was: Pay-to-Sway)
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.010810.0500.>

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 22:20:14 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>PAY-TO-SWAY
>...
>No, not that kind of sway! Errol Louis (the former New York Sun
>columnist who the New York Times should have hired) has a great column
>(again) in today's New York Daily News, 28 January 2005, pg. 51, cols.
>1-3, "On  Ethics" by Errol Louis, "Wake up, Maggie: Another
>conservative columnist is  clueless in pay-to-sway scandal."

There doesn't seem to be a consensus yet on a catchy name for the scandal
involving Armstrong Williams et al., though variations on "pay-for-play"
(from the payola scandal) are popular.  "Pay-to-sway" is perhaps the
favorite (thanks to a Jan. 26 Human Rights Campaign press release about
Maggie Gallagher), but there are some alternatives in circulation.  I just
noticed "pay-for-say" on Salon.com, and the conservative columnist
Michelle Malkin is partial to "pay-to-pander"...


* pay-for-say

http://www.ku.edu/~kudems/blogarchives/2005_01_09_blog_archive.html
KU Democrats, "Is there no shame?", Jan. 15, 2005
First it was the Armstrong pay-for-say scandal...

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/02/01/fairness/index.html
Salon, "Fair and balanced?", Feb. 1, 2005
Some Democrats are using Bush's pay-for-say media scandals to push for a
new Fairness Doctrine for broadcasting.


* pay-to-say

http://gothhouse.blogspot.com/2005/01/no-amount-of-cynicism-is-too-much.html
Goth House, "No amount of cynicism is too much", Jan. 11, 2005
The unfolding pay-to-say scandal...

http://casf.blogspot.com/2005/01/pay-to-say.html
Cultivating a Small Field, "pay to say", Jan. 18, 2005


* pay-to-pander

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/001179.htm
Michelle Malkin, Jan. 7, 2005
"Rodney Paige, Armstrong Williams, and the 'pay to pander' scandal"

http://www.winchesterstar.com/TheWinchesterStar/050113/Opinion_pander.asp
Winchester Star, Jan. 13, 2005
"Pay to Pander Was 'Pathetic'"

http://www.nationalledger.com/commentary/article_153.shtml
National Ledger, Jan. 17, 2005
Speaking of being in denial, some conservatives argue that the Pay to
Pander program is no big deal compared to the CBS scandal.

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/001334.htm
Michelle Malkin, Jan. 25, 2005
You all know how I feel about the Bush administration's media
"pay-to-pander" scandal.


--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Feb  1 07:14:35 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 02:14:35 EST
Subject: ProQuest?; Wolf Tickets (1969); more rhymes
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.021435.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry, but I had thought my last post was a private message. I'll try to
combine things here.
...
...
PROQUEST
...
Have they done ANYTHING this year? It's February!!
...
_http://www.il.proquest.com/products/pt-product-HistNews.shtml_
(http://www.il.proquest.com/products/pt-product-HistNews.shtml)
The Boston Globe--scheduled for January 2005 release
...
...
WOLF TICKETS
....
(PAPER OF RECORD)
10 May 1969, THE AFRO AMERICAN, pg. 31, col. 5:
"The administration (Howard University--ed.) has been selling (wolf)  tickets
with their TRO's (Temporary Restraining Orders) all year; and the  students
just cashed in one of those bad boys!
...
...
...
RHYMES
...
...
MISS MARY MAC (1990), pg. 112:
..
Don't say ain't or your mother will faint,
And your father will fall in a bucket of paint.
Sister will cry, brother will die,
And they won't come back till the Fourth of July.
...
...
...
FOLK-LORE FROM ADAMS COUNTY ILLINOIS (1965), pg. 638:
It is a sin,
To steal a pin;
It is a greater,
To steal a potater (potato).
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
     _Dunkirk Observer Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2vcwb3StNMPzB69E74FCRpgpjA1V0fY8OkIF+CsZYmrz)
Friday, June 28, 1889 _Dunkirk,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:dunkirk+a+sin+to+steal+a+pin)  _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+a+sin+to+steal+a+pin)      ...I suppose,
thAt "it is A SIN TO  steAl A PIN, even though it  mAy bo.....tbe courAge TO
sign her  uAme TO it. "A SIN gle enclosure  of is the lArgest..

Pg. 3, col. 1:
He wrote that although it seemed like a trifling matter it had always
troubled him--on the principle, I suppose, that "it is a sin to steal a pin,  even
though it may be greater to steal a 'tater."
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_NOTES  AND COMMENTS._
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=78765735&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107241406&cli
entId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current file).  New York, N.Y.: Apr 23, 1871. p. 3 (1
page) :
...
As in this particular case the hair was taken from merchants after it had
been imported and made an article of merchandise, the jury didn't think it worth
 while to split any hairs about it, but concluded that if it was a "sin to
steal  a pin," it must be wrong to take chignons.
...

...
FOLK-LORE FROM ADAMS COUNTY ILLINOIS (1965), pg. 637:
If you step on a crack,
You'll break your mother's back.
or
Step on a crack,
Break your mother's back.
...
If you step in a hole,
You'll break your mother's sugar bowl.
or
Step in a hole,
Break your mother's sugar bowl.
...
If you step in a line,
You'll find a dime.
...
If you step on a nail,
You'll send your father to jail
or
Step on a nail,
Get your father to jail.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Feb  1 07:56:55 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 02:56:55 EST
Subject: "Most dangerous man in the world" quote
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.025655.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just today:
...
_http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview_
(http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview) ?
I'm looking for the correct quotation for this paraphrased  quote:

"The most dangerous man in the world is the man who is absolutely  sure
that he is right."

This isn't the correct quote, but does give  the sense of quotation.
I'd like to have the correct quotation, and where it  came from.

Thanks,
J.
...
...
(GOOGLE)
...
_The Cult - Scene Dissections_
(http://chuckpalahniuk.net/community/showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=11683)
... _____. "The most dangerous man is the  one who knows he is right." -
Someone, probably Frank  Herbert. Reply With Quote. ...
chuckpalahniuk.net/community/  showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=11683 - 67k -
Supplemental Result - _Cached_
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:ad6MIkIs1PEJ:chuckpalahniuk.net/community/showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=11683+"most+dangerou
s+man"+and+"he+is+right"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:chuckpalahniuk.net/community/showthre
ad.php?mode=hybrid&t=11683)
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
_SCHOOLS  HELD LAX IN FIGHTING CRIME; Copeland Urges Revision of System to
Stress  'Attitudes' Instead of 'Aptitudes.' ONE ROAD TO PREVENTION He Tells
Lions Group  America Must Rely on Public Classes to Solve Problem. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=87963093&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VTyp
e=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107243254&clientId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 21,  1936. p. 15 (1
page)
...
"The most dangerous man in the world is the highly educated man without
character."
...
...
_Those  Little Things Mean a Lot_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=475909872&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11
07243736&clientId=65882)
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current  File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 20, 1958. p.
D3 (1 page)
...
"The most dangerous man in the world is a second lieutenant with a  map."
...


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 12:46:45 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 04:46:45 -0800
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.044645.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Dave.  A new one on me.

JL

Dave Hause <dwhause at JOBE.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Dave Hause
Subject: Re: Children's chant
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The first Marine went over the ditch
Parle vous
The second Marine went over the ditch
Parle vous
The third Marine fell in the ditch
And called the captain a son of a bitch
Hinkey dinkey parle vous

Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Scroggs"


Heard at my school in the late 1950s.


The first Marine went over the wall
Parle vous
The second Marine went over the wall
Parle vous
The third Marine went over the wall
Got hit in the ass by a cannon ball
Inkey dinkey parle vous
(There were several different verses of this)

Larry
Larry at Scroggs.com


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 12:50:26 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 04:50:26 -0800
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.045026.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yup. "ain't just a-bird-turdin'" goes back to WWII. But I don't think anybody's noted the "Your world" phrases before.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think that I've ever heard that one, but I was never down with
"wolf/woof" from the BE-gin-nin. When I was in the Army, "You ain't
just a-bird-turdin'!" was used with that meaning by Southern-white
GI's. Pretty cool, considering the source.

BTW, on a reality show, I heard a black woman say, "That sucks!" A
first for me. Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it." Back in '54, we used to
say: "It's your world. Just let me live," in response to the greeting,
"Whassapnin?," the "Whussup" of the '50's through the '90's.

-Wilson Gray

On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:27 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> There was also, "You ain't just a woofin'!" I.e., "not just whistlin'
> Dixie!"
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Back in the day - mid '60's - when this was a relatively (I never
> really dug this expression) active part of my vocabulary, it meant
> roughly "to make an empty threat designed to frighten away the unhip."
> It's easy to see how this could come to mean to bullshit someone.
>
> BTW, by this time, in L.A., at least, "square" had ceased to be a word
> applied to the unhip in general. Rather, it was applied to those unhip
> to whatever the speaker was hip to. Those in the (sporting) life
> referred to all others in the demimonde as "squares." Dealers referred
> to users as squares. Dopers referred to winos as squares. Winos
> referred to dopers as squares.
>
> The hip may recall Richard Pryor's bit in which a wino downs a doper by
> saying him, "That narcotic done rendered your ass null and void." (It
> helps if you're old enough to remember: "Do not fold, spindle, or
> mutilate! Any such action will render this instrument null and void."
> Or words to that effect.)
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> On Jan 31, 2005, at 7:35 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
>> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>>> So the big question is where to put the cross reference. I guess it
>>> should be at "woof" and all cites at "wolf" - even though most of the
>>> published ones will be spelled "woof."
>>
>> Why would the published ones be spelled "woof"? I never saw it spelled
>> that
>> way in a book AFAIK.
>>
>> Google shows "wolf ticket" outnumbering "woof ticket" on the Web.
>>
>> N'archive shows > 100 examples with "wolf", zero with "woof".
>>
>> What I want to know is whether the expression has a fixed definite
>> meaning,
>> or group of meanings. I can't find it in my dictionaries at a glance,
>> and I
>> don't trust "Urbandictionary" et al. I've taken it to mean
>> "falsehood"/"bullshit" but in some cases I couldn't tell.
>>
>> -- Doug Wilson
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 13:06:16 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 05:06:16 -0800
Subject: ProQuest?; Wolf Tickets (1969); more rhymes
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.050616.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry's 1969 "wolf tickets"  also contains the earliest "bad boy" = "object; thing" by many years.  I first heard it on "Miami Vice."

JL

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: ProQuest?; Wolf Tickets (1969); more rhymes
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, but I had thought my last post was a private message. I'll try to
combine things here.
...
...
PROQUEST
...
Have they done ANYTHING this year? It's February!!
...
_http://www.il.proquest.com/products/pt-product-HistNews.shtml_
(http://www.il.proquest.com/products/pt-product-HistNews.shtml)
The Boston Globe--scheduled for January 2005 release
...
...
WOLF TICKETS
....
(PAPER OF RECORD)
10 May 1969, THE AFRO AMERICAN, pg. 31, col. 5:
"The administration (Howard University--ed.) has been selling (wolf) tickets
with their TRO's (Temporary Restraining Orders) all year; and the students
just cashed in one of those bad boys!
...
...
...
RHYMES
...
...
MISS MARY MAC (1990), pg. 112:
..
Don't say ain't or your mother will faint,
And your father will fall in a bucket of paint.
Sister will cry, brother will die,
And they won't come back till the Fourth of July.
...
...
...
FOLK-LORE FROM ADAMS COUNTY ILLINOIS (1965), pg. 638:
It is a sin,
To steal a pin;
It is a greater,
To steal a potater (potato).
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
_Dunkirk Observer Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2vcwb3StNMPzB69E74FCRpgpjA1V0fY8OkIF+CsZYmrz)
Friday, June 28, 1889 _Dunkirk,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:dunkirk+a+sin+to+steal+a+pin) _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+a+sin+to+steal+a+pin) ...I suppose,
thAt "it is A SIN TO steAl A PIN, even though it mAy bo.....tbe courAge TO
sign her uAme TO it. "A SIN gle enclosure of is the lArgest..

Pg. 3, col. 1:
He wrote that although it seemed like a trifling matter it had always
troubled him--on the principle, I suppose, that "it is a sin to steal a pin, even
though it may be greater to steal a 'tater."
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_NOTES AND COMMENTS._
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=78765735&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107241406&cli
entId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 23, 1871. p. 3 (1
page) :
...
As in this particular case the hair was taken from merchants after it had
been imported and made an article of merchandise, the jury didn't think it worth
while to split any hairs about it, but concluded that if it was a "sin to
steal a pin," it must be wrong to take chignons.
...

...
FOLK-LORE FROM ADAMS COUNTY ILLINOIS (1965), pg. 637:
If you step on a crack,
You'll break your mother's back.
or
Step on a crack,
Break your mother's back.
...
If you step in a hole,
You'll break your mother's sugar bowl.
or
Step in a hole,
Break your mother's sugar bowl.
...
If you step in a line,
You'll find a dime.
...
If you step on a nail,
You'll send your father to jail
or
Step on a nail,
Get your father to jail.


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 13:13:14 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 05:13:14 -0800
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.051314.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Good work, Mike!  The World War I version was usually,

The YMCA went over the top,
They thought they heard a nickel drop.

The YMCA canteens in France were rather commonly resented for charging doughboys for doughnuts, coffee, cigarettes, etc.

Another was,

The mademoiselle went over the top,
To rob the soldiers as they dropped.


JL

JL

Michael McKernan <mckernan at LOCALNET.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Michael McKernan
Subject: Re: Children's chant
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Larry Scroggs wrote:

>The first Marine went over the wall
>Parle vous
>The second Marine went over the wall
>Parle vous
>The third Marine went over the wall
>Got hit in the ass by a cannon ball
>Inkey dinkey parle vous
>(There were several different verses of this)

Also 1950s; interservice rivalry

The first Marine went over the top
Parlez vous?
The first Marine went over the top
Parlez vous?
The first Marine went over the top
To pick up the nickels the infantry dropped
Hinky dinky parlez vous.

Michael McKernan


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Feb  1 13:29:23 2005
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:29:23 -0500
Subject: Whisky dry, Heaven die (1875)
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.082923.0500.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

My favorite verse is.

"I drink my own whiskey
I make my own stew.
If I get drunk, madam,
It's nothing to you."

As I recall Tex Ritter used this verse.

When I see my late friend Dock Boggs quoted I feel very old.

A bit of advice for all of you.

Interview us old timers before we die so that you can learn from us.

Every time I hear some young folkie, ie under the age of 50 or so talking
about the old timers I almost have to laugh because I interviewed many of
them some forty years ago, and they are not old timers to me but my late
friends.

Please do not worship those who came before you whom you never had the
opportunity to know but go out today and interview those who are the same
age as the ones I interviewed when I was young because they will be soon
become part of the past and unless you interview them now no one else will
do so.

Another bit of advice: you may not like the forms of music they play but
neither did most of the folklorists who dismissed hillbilly, blues, etc.
artists when they were young and vital.

Such people dismissed such forms of music because they did not fit into
their preconceived ideas of what is or is not folk music, folklore etc. and
as a result they failed to understand what was going on in the real world.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: Whisky dry, Heaven die (1875)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Whisky dry, Heaven die (1875)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The variation among these old songs is impressive. I know at least
> three other versions of "Junker/Junko/Junkie Partner." The one I gave
> is the version that I learned first, in 1950, so I tend to think of it
> as the "right" version. But, actually, I have no clue as to what
> version is oldest.
>
> -Wilson
>


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Tue Feb  1 14:01:03 2005
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:01:03 -0600
Subject: Children's chant/and yet another
In-Reply-To: <20050201124645.45265.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.080103.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gory glory halleluiah
Teacher hit me with a ruler
we shot her in the seater
with a 40 millimeter
us kids go marching on

>
>


From katherine.martin at OUP.COM  Tue Feb  1 14:06:21 2005
From: katherine.martin at OUP.COM (Martin, Katherine)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:06:21 -0500
Subject: Children's chant/and yet another
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.090621.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From Vermont in the 1980s, two more variations:

Herman # look what you've done to me
Herman # I think it's pregnancy
Herman # you put your sperm in
and now it's Herman, and squirmin' and me
 * * *
Glory, glory Halleluiah,
Teacher hit me with a ruler
I hit her in the butt
With a rotten coconut.
She ain't gonna sit no more.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  1 14:13:57 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:13:57 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <9580f72707ca647bc4706805f0448103@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.091357.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>  Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."

This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while.  A highlight
of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it."  At least
since the late 90's.  Maybe first with Michael Jordan?  Can you help
narrow it down, Alice?

larry


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Feb  1 15:13:27 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:13:27 -0500
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.101327.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry Horn submits:

> and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
> course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,
>
> Hitler # had only one, left ball,
> Goering #  had two but they were small.
> Himmler #  had something similar,
> And Goebbals
> Had no balls
> At all.
>

Brendan Behan quotes this in Borstal Boy.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 15:49:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 07:49:00 -0800
Subject: Children's chant/and yet another
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.074900.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More "Col. Bogey," pretty foolish though.  NYC, late '60s:

Bullshit !  It makes your grass grow green !
Bullshit !  It makes your windows clean !
Bullshit !  Or is it Horseshit ?
Or is it Bullshit and Horseshit combiiiiiiiined ?????!!!!!!!

The mind that created this one is deserving of study (same locale and milieu):

Who's that knocking at my door?
Who's that knocking at my door?
Who's that knocking at my door?
Said the fair young maiden.

It's me, it's me, from over the sea,
Said Barnacle Bill the Sailor.

(Similarly:)  If you love me, say "It's I"...
Said the fair young maiden.

Aye aye, it's me, Aye aye, it's me,
Said Barnacle Bill the Sailor.

Persons knowing saltier versions are invited to contact me so that posterity may not be misled.

JL
"Martin, Katherine" <katherine.martin at OUP.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Martin, Katherine"
Subject: Re: Children's chant/and yet another
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From Vermont in the 1980s, two more variations:

Herman # look what you've done to me
Herman # I think it's pregnancy
Herman # you put your sperm in
and now it's Herman, and squirmin' and me
* * *
Glory, glory Halleluiah,
Teacher hit me with a ruler
I hit her in the butt
With a rotten coconut.
She ain't gonna sit no more.


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 15:52:23 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 07:52:23 -0800
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.075223.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't know if anyone other than myself ever used this as a cynical catch phrase, but there was an NBC sitcom about 1964 inspired, they said. by the life and writings of James Thurber which was called,

"My Life and Welcome to It."

JL

Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
> Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."

This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while. A highlight
of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it." At least
since the late 90's. Maybe first with Michael Jordan? Can you help
narrow it down, Alice?

larry


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 15:59:44 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 07:59:44 -0800
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.075944.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It was widely sung in all anglophone armies during WWII.  BTW, "Goebbels" is pronounced in this unique case to rhyme with "no balls."

I also heard it from a college chum in 1970.

JL
George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: George Thompson
Subject: Re: Children's chant
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Larry Horn submits:

> and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
> course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,
>
> Hitler # had only one, left ball,
> Goering # had two but they were small.
> Himmler # had something similar,
> And Goebbals
> Had no balls
> At all.
>

Brendan Behan quotes this in Borstal Boy.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  1 16:25:50 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:25:50 -0500
Subject: Children's chant
In-Reply-To: <20050201155945.7620.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.112550.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>It was widely sung in all anglophone armies during WWII.

Right, but from what I understand the present tense would have
allowed the first line to be rendered as "Hitler # has only got one
ball".  But actually that brings up the question of chronology.
BotRK came out in 1957.  Was the tune already well-established during
WWII and just popularized by the movie?  What's the story?

>  BTW, "Goebbels" is pronounced in this unique case to rhyme with "no balls."

Indeed, but given the usual random anglicization tendencies combined
with a perhaps intentional disrespect I could imagine this
pronunciation would not have been restricted to the exigencies of
rhyming.

L

>
>I also heard it from a college chum in 1970.
>
>JL
>George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: George Thompson
>Subject: Re: Children's chant
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Larry Horn submits:
>
>>  and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
>>  course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,
>>
>>  Hitler # had only one, left ball,
>>  Goering # had two but they were small.
>>  Himmler # had something similar,
>>  And Goebbals
>>  Had no balls
>>  At all.
>>
>
>Brendan Behan quotes this in Borstal Boy.
>
>GAT
>
>George A. Thompson
>Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
>Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 16:39:54 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:39:54 -0800
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.083954.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Colonel Bogey's March" was composed in 1914 by "Kenneth Alford" (Frederick J. Ricketts). It is said by Brophy & Partridge to have been the most popular march among British Army bands
during World War I.

JL
Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: Children's chant
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>It was widely sung in all anglophone armies during WWII.

Right, but from what I understand the present tense would have
allowed the first line to be rendered as "Hitler # has only got one
ball". But actually that brings up the question of chronology.
BotRK came out in 1957. Was the tune already well-established during
WWII and just popularized by the movie? What's the story?

> BTW, "Goebbels" is pronounced in this unique case to rhyme with "no balls."

Indeed, but given the usual random anglicization tendencies combined
with a perhaps intentional disrespect I could imagine this
pronunciation would not have been restricted to the exigencies of
rhyming.

L

>
>I also heard it from a college chum in 1970.
>
>JL
>George Thompson wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: George Thompson
>Subject: Re: Children's chant
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Larry Horn submits:
>
>> and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
>> course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,
>>
>> Hitler # had only one, left ball,
>> Goering # had two but they were small.
>> Himmler # had something similar,
>> And Goebbals
>> Had no balls
>> At all.
>>
>
>Brendan Behan quotes this in Borstal Boy.
>
>GAT
>
>George A. Thompson
>Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
>Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Feb  1 16:52:36 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:52:36 -0500
Subject: Burma-Shave
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.115236.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GAT, the guy who still looks things up in books, notes that there is an
article on the Burma-Shave roadside advertisements in the St. James
Encyclopedia of Popular Culture (Detroit : St. James Press, c2000).
This states that the ads were put up in 43 states, between 1925 and
1963 and quotes 4 or 5 of the poems, none of them the ones remembered
by us'n in the postings of this past weekend.  The bibliography cites 2
books that are to be found in better libraries everywhere:
he Verse by the Side of the Road: The Story of the Burma-Shave Signs
and Jingles, by Frank Rowsome, Jr., in print from Penguin for $12.95
Burma-Shave: The Rhymes, the Signs, the Times, by Bill Vossler, in
print from North Star Press of St. Cloud for $14.95

In this instance I am abashed to say that the library here is a grossly
inferior library, since we have neither.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  1 17:09:56 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:09:56 -0500
Subject: Children's chant
In-Reply-To: <20050201163954.87686.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.120956.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"Colonel Bogey's March" was composed in 1914 by "Kenneth Alford"
>(Frederick J. Ricketts). It is said by Brophy & Partridge to have
>been the most popular march among British Army bands
>during World War I.
>
>JL

Aha.  It all makes sense, now.  I tried googling "Colonel Bogey's
March" and kept turning up sites related to BotRK.

L

>Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Laurence Horn
>Subject: Re: Children's chant
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>It was widely sung in all anglophone armies during WWII.
>
>Right, but from what I understand the present tense would have
>allowed the first line to be rendered as "Hitler # has only got one
>ball". But actually that brings up the question of chronology.
>BotRK came out in 1957. Was the tune already well-established during
>WWII and just popularized by the movie? What's the story?
>
>>  BTW, "Goebbels" is pronounced in this unique case to rhyme with "no balls."
>
>Indeed, but given the usual random anglicization tendencies combined
>with a perhaps intentional disrespect I could imagine this
>pronunciation would not have been restricted to the exigencies of
>rhyming.
>
>L
>
>>
>>I also heard it from a college chum in 1970.
>>
>>JL
>>George Thompson wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: George Thompson
>>Subject: Re: Children's chant
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Larry Horn submits:
>>
>>>  and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
>>>  course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,
>>>
>>>  Hitler # had only one, left ball,
>>>  Goering # had two but they were small.
>>>  Himmler # had something similar,
>>>  And Goebbals
>>>  Had no balls
>>>  At all.
>>>
>>
>>Brendan Behan quotes this in Borstal Boy.
>>
>>GAT
>>
>>George A. Thompson
>>Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
>>Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>  Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Tue Feb  1 16:52:03 2005
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (John Fitzpatrick)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:52:03 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.115203.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<<I've noticed that the BE/Southern pronunciation of "whip, which used to be spelled "whup," by outsiders, is now more and more often being spelled "whoop," as in, "open a can of whoop-ass." Given that I pronounce "whoop" as "hoop," >>--Wilson Gray

I'm with you there.  What's in those cans is WHUP-ass.  "Whoop" is effete, yuppie, city-slicker talk.  (http://tinyurl.com/6uajh)

Am I alone in altering the pronunciation of "whoop" to achieve alliteration?  "'hooping an' hollerin'" by all means, but I can't  imagine leaving the W out of Mark Twain's Tennessee newspaper, the "Morning Glory and Johnson County War-Whoop" (hysterically funny; a hornbook of baroque vituperation: http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/1562/).

Seán Fitzpatrick


From remlingk at GVSU.EDU  Tue Feb  1 17:58:51 2005
From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:58:51 -0500
Subject: CFP: ADS at MMLA
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.125851.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Call for Papers: Language Variation and Change in the United States

The American Dialect Society, Midwest Region
With the Midwest Modern Language Association
10-13 November 2005

The Pfister
Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Papers dealing with varieties of English and other languages spoken in
the United States will be considered. Presentations may be based in
traditional dialectology or in other areas of language variation and
change, including sociolinguistics, historical linguistics,
anthropological linguistics, folk linguistics, language and
gender/sexuality, language attitudes, linguistics in the schools,
critical discourse analysis, or narratology.
April 15, 2005 is the deadline for 300-word abstracts. Email submissions
only.

Send abstracts to:

Kathryn Remlinger
American Dialect Society, Midwest Secretary
Grand Valley State University, Allendale, Michigan
remlingk at gvsu.edu
1-616-331-3122

Membership to ADS is recommended. Membership is $50 and includes a
year's subscription to the society's journal, American Speech, and a
copy of the Publication of the American Dialect Society (PADS, an annual
hardbound supplement). Membership information is available at
www.americandialect.org.

Membership to MMLA is required. Membership is $35 for full and associate
professors, $30 for assistant professors and schoolteachers, $20 for
adjunct and part-time faculty, and $15 for students, retired, and
unemployed. Information on membership is available at the website below
or by writing to MMLA, 302 English-Philosophy Bldg, U of Iowa, Iowa
City, IA 52242-1408, tel: 1-319-335-0331.

For more information about ADS at MMLA, see the MMLA website,
www.uiowa.edu/~mmla, go to "Call for Papers," scroll down to "Associated
Organizations," then to "American Dialect Society."


--
Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English: Linguistics
Grand Valley State University
Allendale, MI 49401 USA
remlingk at gvsu.edu
tel: 616-331-3122
fax: 616-331-3430


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Feb  1 18:58:46 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:58:46 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.135846.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        The earliest I see on Westlaw is the Seattle-Times, 6/22/1986, where it's a reference to Bo Jackson.  But Westlaw poops out around that time, so the absence of earlier cites there is not significant.  I've always heard this as referring to Frank Sinatra, and indeed there is a 9/16/1987 use in the Boston Globe to refer to Sinatra.

        It's got to go back farther than this.  What surprised me was the vast range of people to whom it can refer.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Laurence Horn
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:14 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site


At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>  Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."

This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while.  A highlight
of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it."  At least
since the late 90's.  Maybe first with Michael Jordan?  Can you help
narrow it down, Alice?

larry


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Feb  1 19:09:35 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:09:35 -0500
Subject: Woman, Dog, and Hickory Tree (1909)
In-Reply-To: <20050201050036.9AD99B2630@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.140935.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray contributes:
   >>>>>

One version of the final verse of "Junker Partner," a New Orleans black
traditional song:

Give me water when I'm thirsty
Give me whiskey when I'm dry
Give me kindness when I'm sickly
Give me heaven when I die
 <<<<<

I know forms of this from the song that is called variously "Rambler
Gambler", "Rye Whiskey", etc. Here are two excerpts from lyrics found on the
Mudcat Cafe web site.

http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=2966
I'M A RAMBLER, I'M A GAMBLER c

I'm a rambler, I'm a gambler, I'm a long way from home;
And if you don't like me, just leave me alone.
I'll eat when I 'm hungry , I'll drink when I'm dry,
And if the whiskey don't kill me, I'll live till I die.

[I know this one as "And if moonshine..."]

http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=5116
RYE WHISKEY

I'll eat when I'm hungry,
I'll drink when l'm dry,
If the hard times don't kill me,
I'll lay down and die.

[...]

Beefsteak when l'm hungry,
Red liquor when l'm dry,
Greenbacks when I'm hard up,
And religion when I die.




-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Feb  1 19:17:59 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:17:59 -0500
Subject: children's chant
In-Reply-To: <20050201050036.9AD99B2630@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.141759.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry Scroggs <larry at SCROGGS.COM>notes:
   >>>>>
Heard at my school in the late 1950s.

Whistle while you work
Khrushchev is a jerk
Eisenhower's got the power
But it doesn't work.
 <<<<<

Same time frame but with World War II references:

Whistle while you work
Hitler was a jerk
Neeny-neeny*
Hossifini*
Mussolini*
Bit his peeny*
Then it wouldn't work

*These four lines repeat the same tune. As far as I can tell, the second and
third are just nonsense, and one can only guess how to spell them.

Well, these are CHILDREN'S chants, so no surprise if they are silly and
snickering.

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb  1 19:18:07 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:18:07 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.141807.0500.>

Larry Horn wrote:
>
>At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>  Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>>say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."
>
>This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while.  A highlight
>of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
>anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it."  At least
>since the late 90's.  Maybe first with Michael Jordan?  Can you help
>narrow it down, Alice?

John Baker wrote:
>
>        The earliest I see on Westlaw is the Seattle-Times, 6/22/1986,
>where it's a reference to Bo Jackson.  But Westlaw poops out around that
>time, so the absence of earlier cites there is not significant.  I've
>always heard this as referring to Frank Sinatra, and indeed there is a
>9/16/1987 use in the Boston Globe to refer to Sinatra.
>
>        It's got to go back farther than this.  What surprised me was the
> vast range of people to whom it can refer.


Looks like we may have Dean Martin to thank for the expression.  From a
1964 column by Earl Wilson:

Reno Evening Gazette, January 4, 1964, p. 10/1
When Dean [Martin], Frank [Sinatra] and their buddy Sammy Davis Jr.
appeared at the Las Vegas Sands' llth anniversary, Dean bowed to Frank and
said, "It's your world, Frank; I just live in it."


--Ben Zimmer


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb  1 19:25:08 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:25:08 -0500
Subject: "novel" = book-length prose account
In-Reply-To: <20050201015947.21266.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.142508.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ah well, what do professors know?

At 08:59 PM 1/31/2005, you wrote:
>This has been discussed before, but here is an indisputable citation from
>a professor of English literature.
>
>
>"[Philip] Caputo's novel ["A Rumor of War"] is arguably the best US novel
>of the Vietnam War.  A USMC officer in the first US Marine brigade to
>arrive in Danang, Caputo's experience mirrors that of the whole country in
>the late 60's.
>"Paper Two due at the end of this novel"
>
>             ---Richard Schumaker, University of Maryland, European
> Division. http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~rschumak/    (then press "war and
> literature").
>
>"A Rumor of War" (1977) is an autobiographical account, catalogued by the
>L of C under "Biography" and "Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975, Personal
>narratives--American."
>
>JL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 19:33:23 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:33:23 -0800
Subject: "novel" = book-length prose account
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.113323.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Beverly, the question almost answers itself.  Certainly in my case.

JL

Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Beverly Flanigan
Subject: Re: "novel" = book-length prose account
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ah well, what do professors know?

At 08:59 PM 1/31/2005, you wrote:
>This has been discussed before, but here is an indisputable citation from
>a professor of English literature.
>
>
>"[Philip] Caputo's novel ["A Rumor of War"] is arguably the best US novel
>of the Vietnam War. A USMC officer in the first US Marine brigade to
>arrive in Danang, Caputo's experience mirrors that of the whole country in
>the late 60's.
>"Paper Two due at the end of this novel"
>
> ---Richard Schumaker, University of Maryland, European
> Division. http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~rschumak/ (then press "war and
> literature").
>
>"A Rumor of War" (1977) is an autobiographical account, catalogued by the
>L of C under "Biography" and "Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975, Personal
>narratives--American."
>
>JL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Feb  1 19:39:39 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:39:39 -0500
Subject: "war daddy"
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.143939.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've been asked about the term _war daddy_ in football,
referring to a very tough or aggressive player. Does
anyone know the inspiration for this, or its history?
I know there was some WWI-era use of _war daddy_ to
describe wealthy men who financially helped soldiers,
or something like that, but this doesn't seem related.

Thanks.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  1 19:53:29 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:53:29 -0500
Subject: "novel" = book-length prose account
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050201142410.031389c8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.145329.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:25 PM -0500 2/1/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Ah well, what do professors know?

Perhaps what this professor of English literature didn't know is not
that novels are [+ fictional] but just that Caputo's _A Rumor of War_
isn't a novel.  Caputo is generally known as a novelist and in
particular the author of Vietnam War novels.  Maybe Prof. Schumaker
hadn't quite gotten around to actually *reading* this memoir before
producing the annotation on his web site--which, it will be noted,
comes in the middle of a list of annotations of war novels of the
fictional variety, including _All Quiet on the Western Front_ and
_Slaughterhouse Five_.  Or, assuming absent-mindedness rather than
laziness, he'd read it but just assimilated it to the novels on his
list.  (I can imagine committing either of these sins more easily
than that of reanalyzing the lexical entry for _novel_.)  On the
other hand, the very next entry on Prof. Schumaker's reading list
after _A Rumor of War_ is a novel (or at least a "novel") by a North
Vietnamese author, _The Sorrow of War_, which is described as "the
perfect pendent [sic] to Caputo's novel", which makes one wonder.

L

>
>At 08:59 PM 1/31/2005, you [= Jon L.] wrote:
>>This has been discussed before, but here is an indisputable citation from
>>a professor of English literature.
>>
>>
>>"[Philip] Caputo's novel ["A Rumor of War"] is arguably the best US novel
>>of the Vietnam War.  A USMC officer in the first US Marine brigade to
>>arrive in Danang, Caputo's experience mirrors that of the whole country in
>>the late 60's.
>>"Paper Two due at the end of this novel"
>>
>>             ---Richard Schumaker, University of Maryland, European
>>Division. http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~rschumak/    (then press "war and
>>literature").
>>
>>"A Rumor of War" (1977) is an autobiographical account, catalogued by the
>>L of C under "Biography" and "Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975, Personal
>>narratives--American."
>>
>>JL


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 20:06:19 2005
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:06:19 -0800
Subject: � � � "Mazda bulbs"
In-Reply-To: <13e.bc4c951.2f2e5e02@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.120619.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mazda comes from the Zoroastrian supreme deity, Ahura
Mazda, who is symbolized by fire or light.


--- Steve Boatti <Ittaob at AOL.COM> wrote:

> What's the derivation of Mazda as a lightbulb
> trademark? I've wondered if
> it's related to the name of the Japanese car.
>
>
>
> Steve Boatti
> sjb72 at columbia.edu
>

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  1 20:11:06 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:11:06 -0500
Subject: Children's chant
In-Reply-To: <E1Cvzj6-0005np-00@mx05.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.151106.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 1, 2005, at 10:13 AM, George Thompson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Children's chant
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Larry Horn submits:
>
>> and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
>> course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,
>>
>> Hitler # had only one, left ball,
>> Goering #  had two but they were small.
>> Himmler #  had something similar,
>> And Goebbals
>> Had no balls
>> At all.
>>
>
> Brendan Behan quotes this in Borstal Boy.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>

This was also very popular as a barracks time-killer and
mood-lightener, when I was in the Army, except that it was Hitler who
had no balls at all.

There were a couple of other barracks ballads that I can't quite
recall, but which someone else may recognize.

I don't want to join the Army
I don't want to go to war
I don't want to get me arse shah-toff
Etc.

?...?
?...?
A gentleman dapper
Stepped out of the crapper
?...?
?...?
Her mother never told (or "taught"?) her
The things a young girl should know
Etc.

There was also a chant used only by NCO's to troops being formed up for
inspection:

Dress right!
Dress!
Dress and cover!
Dress and cover!
Dress it up and cover down!
Eighteen inches all around!
Dress and cover!
Dress and cover!

-Wilson Gray


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  1 20:26:21 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:26:21 -0500
Subject: "war daddy"
In-Reply-To: <E1Cw3w4-0004VR-00@mx04.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.152621.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 1, 2005, at 2:39 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>
> Subject:      "war daddy"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I've been asked about the term _war daddy_ in football,
> referring to a very tough or aggressive player. Does
> anyone know the inspiration for this, or its history?
> I know there was some WWI-era use of _war daddy_ to
> describe wealthy men who financially helped soldiers,
> or something like that, but this doesn't seem related.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
> OED
>

Never heard it or read it. But, re _war daddy_ *not* as a football
term: perhaps related to Little Orphan Annie's Daddy Warbucks, who was
a war profiteer, at least in the beginning?

-Wilson


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Feb  1 20:35:40 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:35:40 -0500
Subject: Somewhat off- topic
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.153540.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This query is somewhat off-topic of dialect.  Is there a history of
gestures (e.g. middle-fingering and finger wagging [often accompanied by
tsk-tsking])?  I'm sure the mummy in The Mummy Returns is anachronizing
when he wags his finger at the young boy.  The same may be true of Walter
Eckland (in Father Goose, a movie set in WWII) who is reported to have
used a gesture of disgust and frustration by the harbour masters lackey.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Feb  1 20:54:34 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:54:34 -0500
Subject: Somewhat off- topic
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.155434.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Archer Taylor wrote a history of the nose-thumbing gesture: The
Shanghai Gesture.  Helsinki: Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia (Academia
Scientiarum Fennica) 1956.  76 pp.  FF communications ;  no 166.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

----- Original Message -----
From: Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2005 3:35 pm
Subject: Somewhat off- topic

> This query is somewhat off-topic of dialect.  Is there a history of
> gestures (e.g. middle-fingering and finger wagging [often
> accompanied by
> tsk-tsking])?  I'm sure the mummy in The Mummy Returns is
> anachronizingwhen he wags his finger at the young boy.  The same
> may be true of Walter
> Eckland (in Father Goose, a movie set in WWII) who is reported to have
> used a gesture of disgust and frustration by the harbour masters
> lackey.
> Regards,
> David
>
> barnhart at highlands.com
>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb  1 20:52:30 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:52:30 -0500
Subject: "novel" = book-length prose account
In-Reply-To: <p0432040fbe258b10d38d@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.155230.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You're very kind, Larry!

At 02:53 PM 2/1/2005, you wrote:
>At 2:25 PM -0500 2/1/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>Ah well, what do professors know?
>
>Perhaps what this professor of English literature didn't know is not
>that novels are [+ fictional] but just that Caputo's _A Rumor of War_
>isn't a novel.  Caputo is generally known as a novelist and in
>particular the author of Vietnam War novels.  Maybe Prof. Schumaker
>hadn't quite gotten around to actually *reading* this memoir before
>producing the annotation on his web site--which, it will be noted,
>comes in the middle of a list of annotations of war novels of the
>fictional variety, including _All Quiet on the Western Front_ and
>_Slaughterhouse Five_.  Or, assuming absent-mindedness rather than
>laziness, he'd read it but just assimilated it to the novels on his
>list.  (I can imagine committing either of these sins more easily
>than that of reanalyzing the lexical entry for _novel_.)  On the
>other hand, the very next entry on Prof. Schumaker's reading list
>after _A Rumor of War_ is a novel (or at least a "novel") by a North
>Vietnamese author, _The Sorrow of War_, which is described as "the
>perfect pendent [sic] to Caputo's novel", which makes one wonder.
>
>L
>
>>
>>At 08:59 PM 1/31/2005, you [= Jon L.] wrote:
>>>This has been discussed before, but here is an indisputable citation from
>>>a professor of English literature.
>>>
>>>
>>>"[Philip] Caputo's novel ["A Rumor of War"] is arguably the best US novel
>>>of the Vietnam War.  A USMC officer in the first US Marine brigade to
>>>arrive in Danang, Caputo's experience mirrors that of the whole country in
>>>the late 60's.
>>>"Paper Two due at the end of this novel"
>>>
>>>             ---Richard Schumaker, University of Maryland, European
>>>Division. http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~rschumak/    (then press "war and
>>>literature").
>>>
>>>"A Rumor of War" (1977) is an autobiographical account, catalogued by the
>>>L of C under "Biography" and "Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975, Personal
>>>narratives--American."
>>>
>>>JL


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Feb  1 21:41:46 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:41:46 -0800
Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe
In-Reply-To: <021701c5076c$b50f2c20$6400a8c0@FITZT1840>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.134146.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm catching up with my e-mail, so perhaps I've missed something.  So far,
I haven't seen a mention of "turkey" as the eeny-meeny euphemism.  That's
the version I grew up with in So. California.  Or did I hear it from my
grandmother from Oklahoma?  Both, as I recall.

Peter Mc.


--On Monday, January 31, 2005 3:13 AM -0500 SeXn Fitzpatrick
<grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET> wrote:

> Outside Washington, D.C., in the early 1950s, I learned of the "Catch a
> nigger by his toe" version when a teen-aged playground monitor cautioned
> us to say "tiger" instead.  Well, who doesn't ?, I thought.
>
> Wilson Gray wrote:
> <<However, I do know "niggerhead," but primarily as a literary term for
> an underwater obstruction that can rip out the bottom of a commercial
> fishing boat.>>
>
> Besides the underwater obstacle, I have heard "niggerhead" applied to a
> kind of broadleaf lawn weed.  It sends up a thin stalk (thinner than a
> dandelion stem) topped by a tight seed cluster that has a nubbly texture
> somewhat like the standard pre-Afro Negro hair style. (More often seen on
> women nowadays.)  My father referred to them as "whiskers".  To a lad
> just taking up the responsibility of lawnmowing, the weeds were more
> annoying than dandelions.  The stalks bent out of the way of the
> reel-type push mower and had to be clipped or cut with a grass whip.
>
> Seán Fitzpatrick
> Beer is good food
> http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  1 22:09:58 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:09:58 -0500
Subject: Wilde Quotation
In-Reply-To: <32F4F32F.1359A224.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.170958.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am again in a place without access to ProQuest Historical Newspapers.
Is anyone willing to search PQHN to see whether there are any pre-1916
occurrences of Oscar Wilde's quotation, "I have nothing to declare except
my genius"?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  1 22:23:04 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:23:04 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <E1Cw3Ev-0004xH-00@mx04.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.172304.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 1, 2005, at 1:58 PM, Baker, John wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>         The earliest I see on Westlaw is the Seattle-Times, 6/22/1986,
> where it's a reference to Bo Jackson.  But Westlaw poops out around
> that time, so the absence of earlier cites there is not significant.
> I've always heard this as referring to Frank Sinatra, and indeed there
> is a 9/16/1987 use in the Boston Globe to refer to Sinatra.
>
>         It's got to go back farther than this.  What surprised me was
> the vast range of people to whom it can refer.
>
> John Baker


> "It's got to go back farther than this."

You mean, WRT a citation in print? (BTW, congratulations on your use of
"farther" in this environment.) I first heard a very similar phrase in
1954 - the year that I graduated from high school and I have no reason
to think that the first person that I heard say it also coined it.

A couple of weeks back, I heard Jon Stewart use the phrase, "Get your
heels to clicking." ("Get to stepping" was an occasional variant.) Not
only was this the first time that I'd ever a white person use this, but
it was also the first time that I'd heard it said since the mid-'60's
in L.A. and the first time that I'd heard it used by a "square," in
this case, someone who wasn't a pimp. Rarely - any whore who'd been
broken in and turned out for a week or so would know better than to do
anything that would cause her pimp to have to take her to task - a pimp
might use this phrase to enjoin his whores to work harder, not smarter,
when he was, e.g. gambling away "his" money faster than his whores
could bring it in.

The phrase's meaning and use were so restricted back in the day that
I'm stunned and amazed that any non-senior citizen at all living in the
21st century could possibly have even heard it, let alone find a reason
to use it.

-Wilson Gray

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Laurence Horn
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:14 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
>
>
> At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>  Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>> say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."
>
> This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while.  A highlight
> of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
> anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it."  At least
> since the late 90's.  Maybe first with Michael Jordan?  Can you help
> narrow it down, Alice?
>
> larry
>


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  1 22:37:17 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:37:17 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <p04320400be253e5893fd@[130.132.245.165]>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.173717.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Tuesday, February 1, 2005 9:13 AM -0500 Laurence Horn
<laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:

> At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>  Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>> say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."
>
> This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while.  A highlight
> of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
> anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it."  At least
> since the late 90's.  Maybe first with Michael Jordan?  Can you help
> narrow it down, Alice?

I can't narrow it down. But, it *sounds* like a Stuart Scott-ism. Somewhere
I've saved an essay by him on why it's OK for him to use colloquial
AAVE-isms in his sportscasts. I want to say that it dates from about the
time of the Oakland Ebonics fuss, but I'm not sure.

Dunno if this adds anything to the discussion.


--
Alice Faber
Haskins Labs, 270 Crown St, New Haven, CT, 06511
T: (203) 865-6163 x258 F: (203) 865-8963
faber at haskins.yale.edu


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 23:30:40 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:30:40 -0800
Subject: "war daddy"
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.153040.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Have never heard of either of these.

JL

Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Jesse Sheidlower
Subject: "war daddy"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been asked about the term _war daddy_ in football,
referring to a very tough or aggressive player. Does
anyone know the inspiration for this, or its history?
I know there was some WWI-era use of _war daddy_ to
describe wealthy men who financially helped soldiers,
or something like that, but this doesn't seem related.

Thanks.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 23:32:06 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:32:06 -0800
Subject: "novel" = book-length prose account
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.153206.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the words of Pilate, "What is [+nonfiction] anyway?"

JL

Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: "novel" = book-length prose account
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 2:25 PM -0500 2/1/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Ah well, what do professors know?

Perhaps what this professor of English literature didn't know is not
that novels are [+ fictional] but just that Caputo's _A Rumor of War_
isn't a novel. Caputo is generally known as a novelist and in
particular the author of Vietnam War novels. Maybe Prof. Schumaker
hadn't quite gotten around to actually *reading* this memoir before
producing the annotation on his web site--which, it will be noted,
comes in the middle of a list of annotations of war novels of the
fictional variety, including _All Quiet on the Western Front_ and
_Slaughterhouse Five_. Or, assuming absent-mindedness rather than
laziness, he'd read it but just assimilated it to the novels on his
list. (I can imagine committing either of these sins more easily
than that of reanalyzing the lexical entry for _novel_.) On the
other hand, the very next entry on Prof. Schumaker's reading list
after _A Rumor of War_ is a novel (or at least a "novel") by a North
Vietnamese author, _The Sorrow of War_, which is described as "the
perfect pendent [sic] to Caputo's novel", which makes one wonder.

L

>
>At 08:59 PM 1/31/2005, you [= Jon L.] wrote:
>>This has been discussed before, but here is an indisputable citation from
>>a professor of English literature.
>>
>>
>>"[Philip] Caputo's novel ["A Rumor of War"] is arguably the best US novel
>>of the Vietnam War. A USMC officer in the first US Marine brigade to
>>arrive in Danang, Caputo's experience mirrors that of the whole country in
>>the late 60's.
>>"Paper Two due at the end of this novel"
>>
>> ---Richard Schumaker, University of Maryland, European
>>Division. http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~rschumak/ (then press "war and
>>literature").
>>
>>"A Rumor of War" (1977) is an autobiographical account, catalogued by the
>>L of C under "Biography" and "Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975, Personal
>>narratives--American."
>>
>>JL


---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 23:56:32 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:56:32 -0800
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.155632.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I may be able to help you out there, young man.  The 1914-18 version of "I Don't Want to Join the Army" (based on an English music-hall tune) was as follows:

(NOT FOR OFFENDABLE PEOPLE !)

I don't want to be a soldier !
I don't want to go to war !
I'd rather hang around
Piccadilly Underground,
Living on the earnings of a lay-dee ty-pist !
I don't want a bayonet up my arsehole !
I don't want my ballocks shot away !
I'd rather stay in England,
Merry, merry England,
And fornicate my fucking life away !

Then of course there is the interwar American frat song that goes,

'Twas a cold winter's evening,
The guests were all leaving,
O'Reilly was closing the bar.
And roughly he said,
To a Lady in Red -
"Get out ! You can't stay where you are !"

She wept a sad tear in her bucket of beer,
As she thought of the cold night ahead,
When a gentleman dapper
Stepped out of the crapper,
And these are the words that he saaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiid :

"Her mother never told her
All the things a young girl should know -
About the ways of college men,
And how they come and go. (OOOOOOOOO moooost - leeee goooooooooooo !!!!!)
Age has now taken her beauty,
And Sin has left its sad scar.
So think of your mothers and sisters, boys,
And let her....sleep under...the baaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrr !

And so we end another trip down Memory Lane, brought to you by Serutan.
And Serutan, spelled backwards, is "Nature's" !

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Children's chant
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 1, 2005, at 10:13 AM, George Thompson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: George Thompson
> Subject: Re: Children's chant
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Larry Horn submits:
>
>> and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
>> course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,
>>
>> Hitler # had only one, left ball,
>> Goering # had two but they were small.
>> Himmler # had something similar,
>> And Goebbals
>> Had no balls
>> At all.
>>
>
> Brendan Behan quotes this in Borstal Boy.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>

This was also very popular as a barracks time-killer and
mood-lightener, when I was in the Army, except that it was Hitler who
had no balls at all.

There were a couple of other barracks ballads that I can't quite
recall, but which someone else may recognize.

I don't want to join the Army
I don't want to go to war
I don't want to get me arse shah-toff
Etc.

?...?
?...?
A gentleman dapper
Stepped out of the crapper
?...?
?...?
Her mother never told (or "taught"?) her
The things a young girl should know
Etc.

There was also a chant used only by NCO's to troops being formed up for
inspection:

Dress right!
Dress!
Dress and cover!
Dress and cover!
Dress it up and cover down!
Eighteen inches all around!
Dress and cover!
Dress and cover!

-Wilson Gray


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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  2 00:18:31 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:18:31 -0800
Subject: Somewhat off- topic
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.161831.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's Desmond Morris's "Gestures, Their Origin and Distribution" (N.Y.: Stein & Day, 1979), but I thought it was built on shaky foundations.

For example, Morris claims that Pantagruel gives someone the English "two-finger Vee" gesture (*not* the Victory sign, of course).  When I checked the passage in Rabelais, it seemed pretty clear that the gesture involved simply pointing two fingers at the victim, in the midst of other cryptic clowning, with no detectable implication that this perfromance much resembled or meant the same as the modern gesture.

Geoffrey C.Ward's "Baseball: An Illustrated History" (N.Y.: Knopf, 1994), accompanying the Ken Burns PBS series, has a team photo showing star pitcher Charley "Old Hoss" Radbourne (described on the Net as a "cantankerous man with a drinking problem") subtly but seemingly unmistakably "giving the finger" to the camerman ca1889.  Funk & Wagnalls actually included
the phrase not long after, with an innocent but relevant definition. Make of it what you will.

JL


Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Barnhart
Subject: Somewhat off- topic
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This query is somewhat off-topic of dialect. Is there a history of
gestures (e.g. middle-fingering and finger wagging [often accompanied by
tsk-tsking])? I'm sure the mummy in The Mummy Returns is anachronizing
when he wags his finger at the young boy. The same may be true of Walter
Eckland (in Father Goose, a movie set in WWII) who is reported to have
used a gesture of disgust and frustration by the harbour masters lackey.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com

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From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb  2 00:19:55 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:19:55 -0500
Subject: "war daddy"
In-Reply-To: <20050201233040.63294.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.191955.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

yOn Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM> wrote:
>
> I've been asked about the term _war daddy_ in football,
> referring to a very tough or aggressive player. Does
> anyone know the inspiration for this, or its history?

Here are the earliest citations from Nexis:

1980 _Wash. Post_ 8 July [article beginning on p. B1]  That was a theme
that ran through the sultry, 100-proof weekend full of old-timers like
James "War Daddy" Newsome, 54, a retired master sergeant who flipped
burgers at the picnic.

1985 _Arkansas Democrat-Gazette_ 13 Nov.  "The big deal about us is that
each area -- linemen, ends, linebackers, whatever -- each has contributed
at times when we've needed it," Lindsey said.  "We don't have a stud,
star, war-daddy, whatever.  For us to be effective, the guys who have had
to make the big plays have made them."

1989 _Sports Illustrated_ 11 Dec. [article beginning on p. 50]  "There's a
term [football] coaches use -- war daddies," says Curry.  "They get after
you and smash you.  A good team has one or two.  Auburn has 11."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  2 00:24:16 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:24:16 -0800
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.162416.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson, you are a veritable gold mine of seedy information. I am always in awe of your
word whored - I mean "hoard."

By my students' standards, Jon Stewart *is* a senior citizen. Where that leaves us, I just don't want to think about.

JL



Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 1, 2005, at 1:58 PM, Baker, John wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Baker, John"
> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The earliest I see on Westlaw is the Seattle-Times, 6/22/1986,
> where it's a reference to Bo Jackson. But Westlaw poops out around
> that time, so the absence of earlier cites there is not significant.
> I've always heard this as referring to Frank Sinatra, and indeed there
> is a 9/16/1987 use in the Boston Globe to refer to Sinatra.
>
> It's got to go back farther than this. What surprised me was
> the vast range of people to whom it can refer.
>
> John Baker


> "It's got to go back farther than this."

You mean, WRT a citation in print? (BTW, congratulations on your use of
"farther" in this environment.) I first heard a very similar phrase in
1954 - the year that I graduated from high school and I have no reason
to think that the first person that I heard say it also coined it.

A couple of weeks back, I heard Jon Stewart use the phrase, "Get your
heels to clicking." ("Get to stepping" was an occasional variant.) Not
only was this the first time that I'd ever a white person use this, but
it was also the first time that I'd heard it said since the mid-'60's
in L.A. and the first time that I'd heard it used by a "square," in
this case, someone who wasn't a pimp. Rarely - any whore who'd been
broken in and turned out for a week or so would know better than to do
anything that would cause her pimp to have to take her to task - a pimp
might use this phrase to enjoin his whores to work harder, not smarter,
when he was, e.g. gambling away "his" money faster than his whores
could bring it in.

The phrase's meaning and use were so restricted back in the day that
I'm stunned and amazed that any non-senior citizen at all living in the
21st century could possibly have even heard it, let alone find a reason
to use it.

-Wilson Gray

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Laurence Horn
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:14 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
>
>
> At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>> Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>> say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."
>
> This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while. A highlight
> of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
> anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it." At least
> since the late 90's. Maybe first with Michael Jordan? Can you help
> narrow it down, Alice?
>
> larry
>

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From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Feb  2 00:38:38 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:38:38 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.193838.0500.>

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:37:17 -0500, Alice Faber <faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU>
wrote:

>--On Tuesday, February 1, 2005 9:13 AM -0500 Laurence Horn
><laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>
>> At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>  Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>>> say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."
>>
>> This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while.  A highlight
>> of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
>> anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it."  At least
>> since the late 90's.  Maybe first with Michael Jordan?  Can you help
>> narrow it down, Alice?
>
>I can't narrow it down. But, it *sounds* like a Stuart Scott-ism. Somewhere
>I've saved an essay by him on why it's OK for him to use colloquial
>AAVE-isms in his sportscasts. I want to say that it dates from about the
>time of the Oakland Ebonics fuss, but I'm not sure.

We have Dean Martin's "It's your world, Frank -- I just live in it" c.
1963 (see post upthread).  The hallmark of the AAVE variant seems to be
the use of the progressive form of "live" ("I'm/we're just livin' in it").
 The first Usenet cite I can find for that form is from 1992 in a sigline:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.tv/msg/7416b85fc6b7e645

Cites start appearing on Nexis in 1993:

-----
St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Mar. 19, 1993, p. 4D
"This is Indiana's world and we're just living in it now," Wright State
coach Ralph Underhill said.
-----
New York Times, Aug. 30, 1993, p. D9
"There's a rawness, an honesty," he added during an interview last week in
New York, "that makes you say, 'Yes, these people do know who they're
talking to.' " That is underscored by the campaign's theme: "It's her
world. We're just living in it."
[regarding ad campaign for YM Magazine, targeted to teenage girls]
-----

It's noted as basketball slang in this 1999 "Hoops Glossary":

-----
St. Petersburg Times, Mar. 26, 1999, p. 40X
your world - a complimentary term used for a teammate who can take his
opponent. "It's your world and we're just living in it."
-----

I do recall Stuart Scott using the phrase in the mid- to late '90s, most
often referring to Charles Barkley, I think.


--Ben Zimmer


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  2 01:26:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:26:00 -0800
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.172600.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Have discovered that besides their tedious old meanings, so familiar that I needn't bore you with them, these words have been used in the military with the senses "high-speed Morse operator" and "high-speed Morse receiver/transmitter."  To "dittybop" also means "to transmit Morse code at high speed."

Can any of my distinguished colleagues and consultants add anything to the above from personal experience ?

JL

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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb  2 02:49:55 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:49:55 -0500
Subject: children's chant
In-Reply-To: <20050201141307.L50440@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.214955.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark Mandel has it:

>Larry Scroggs <larry at SCROGGS.COM>notes:
>    >>>>>
>Heard at my school in the late 1950s.
>
>Whistle while you work
>Khrushchev is a jerk
>Eisenhower's got the power
>But it doesn't work.
>  <<<<<
>
>Same time frame but with World War II references:
>
>Whistle while you work
>Hitler was a jerk
>Neeny-neeny*
>Hossifini*

= Josephinie, perhaps?  Not that that helps, particularly, but it
might be a covert allusion to Napoleon.

>Mussolini*
>Bit his peeny*

Interestingly, still leaving unresolved the ambiguity between
auto-mordication and allo-.  Those wild and crazy fascists!

>Then it wouldn't work
>
>*These four lines repeat the same tune. As far as I can tell, the second and
>third are just nonsense, and one can only guess how to spell them.
>
>Well, these are CHILDREN'S chants, so no surprise if they are silly and
>snickering.
>
>-- Mark
>[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Feb  2 02:52:40 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:52:40 -0800
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <20050201155223.5394.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.185240.0800.>

> I don't know if anyone other than myself ever used this as a
> cynical catch phrase, but there was an NBC sitcom about 1964
> inspired, they said. by the life and writings of James Thurber
> which was called,
>
> "My Life and Welcome to It."
>

I've heard the phrase used cynically on occasion, and probably have used it
myself.

But the reference to the TV show is wrong. I knew it couldn't be 1964
because I remember it. Looking it up on IMDB, I find that the series ran
1969-70 (26 episodes) and was called, "My World and Welcome To It," which is
also the title of a 1942 Thurber book (I believe a collection of short
stories). The TV series starred William Windom in the Thurber-like role.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  2 02:53:58 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:53:58 -0800
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.185358.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dave, you are correct.  At my age, however, "ABOUT" 1964 does mean anywhere from 1961-1970.

JL

Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Dave Wilton
Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> I don't know if anyone other than myself ever used this as a
> cynical catch phrase, but there was an NBC sitcom about 1964
> inspired, they said. by the life and writings of James Thurber
> which was called,
>
> "My Life and Welcome to It."
>

I've heard the phrase used cynically on occasion, and probably have used it
myself.

But the reference to the TV show is wrong. I knew it couldn't be 1964
because I remember it. Looking it up on IMDB, I find that the series ran
1969-70 (26 episodes) and was called, "My World and Welcome To It," which is
also the title of a 1942 Thurber book (I believe a collection of short
stories). The TV series starred William Windom in the Thurber-like role.

--Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb  2 02:59:18 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:59:18 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <E1Cw0fj-0002eB-00@mx09.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.215918.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 1, 2005, at 10:52 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I don't know if anyone other than myself ever used this as a cynical
> catch phrase, but there was an NBC sitcom about 1964 inspired, they
> said. by the life and writings of James Thurber which was called,
>
> "My Life and Welcome to It."
>
> JL

Yes. I remember that show. That is, I've never used the phrase, but
yes, I do remember the TV show,

-Wilson

>
> Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Laurence Horn
> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>> Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>> say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."
>
> This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while. A highlight
> of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
> anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it." At least
> since the late 90's. Maybe first with Michael Jordan? Can you help
> narrow it down, Alice?
>
> larry
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb  2 03:19:53 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:19:53 -0500
Subject: children's chant
In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$7364bu@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.221953.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

So, there really is a word, "peeny." I ran across it in a novel, back
in the '70's. I thought the author had invented it.

-Wilson

On Feb 1, 2005, at 2:17 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: children's chant
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Larry Scroggs <larry at SCROGGS.COM>notes:
>>>>>>
> Heard at my school in the late 1950s.
>
> Whistle while you work
> Khrushchev is a jerk
> Eisenhower's got the power
> But it doesn't work.
>  <<<<<
>
> Same time frame but with World War II references:
>
> Whistle while you work
> Hitler was a jerk
> Neeny-neeny*
> Hossifini*
> Mussolini*
> Bit his peeny*
> Then it wouldn't work
>
> *These four lines repeat the same tune. As far as I can tell, the
> second and
> third are just nonsense, and one can only guess how to spell them.
>
> Well, these are CHILDREN'S chants, so no surprise if they are silly and
> snickering.
>
> -- Mark
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb  2 03:44:40 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:44:40 -0500
Subject: Somewhat off- topic
In-Reply-To: <E1Cw52p-0000uw-00@mx03.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.224440.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No offense, George, but, as a retired librarian who once nearly had a
nervous breakdown trying - eventually, successfully - to locate a
number of this serial for a patron, I'd like to add that this
periodical is very often cataloged under "Folklore Fellows
communications" and not under merely "FF communications," at some of
this country's finer libraries.

-Wilson

On Feb 1, 2005, at 3:54 PM, George Thompson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Somewhat off- topic
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Archer Taylor wrote a history of the nose-thumbing gesture: The
> Shanghai Gesture.  Helsinki: Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia (Academia
> Scientiarum Fennica) 1956.  76 pp.  FF communications ;  no 166.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2005 3:35 pm
> Subject: Somewhat off- topic
>
>> This query is somewhat off-topic of dialect.  Is there a history of
>> gestures (e.g. middle-fingering and finger wagging [often
>> accompanied by
>> tsk-tsking])?  I'm sure the mummy in The Mummy Returns is
>> anachronizingwhen he wags his finger at the young boy.  The same
>> may be true of Walter
>> Eckland (in Father Goose, a movie set in WWII) who is reported to have
>> used a gesture of disgust and frustration by the harbour masters
>> lackey.
>> Regards,
>> David
>>
>> barnhart at highlands.com
>>
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb  2 04:10:26 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:10:26 -0500
Subject: Children's chant
In-Reply-To: <E1Cw7so-0007C4-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.231026.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Whoa! Many thanks, Jon!

I wonder whether the makers of Serutan are still in business. It's been
decades (BTW, I've heard Bill Kurtis, the host of Cold Case, twice
pronounce this as "dekkids," St. Louis-style; he's a native of
someplace in Kansas) since I've seen or heard an ad for that stuff.

-Wilson

On Feb 1, 2005, at 6:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Children's chant
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I may be able to help you out there, young man.  The 1914-18 version
> of "I Don't Want to Join the Army" (based on an English music-hall
> tune) was as follows:
>
> (NOT FOR OFFENDABLE PEOPLE !)
>
> I don't want to be a soldier !
> I don't want to go to war !
> I'd rather hang around
> Piccadilly Underground,
> Living on the earnings of a lay-dee ty-pist !
> I don't want a bayonet up my arsehole !
> I don't want my ballocks shot away !
> I'd rather stay in England,
> Merry, merry England,
> And fornicate my fucking life away !
>
> Then of course there is the interwar American frat song that goes,
>
> 'Twas a cold winter's evening,
> The guests were all leaving,
> O'Reilly was closing the bar.
> And roughly he said,
> To a Lady in Red -
> "Get out ! You can't stay where you are !"
>
> She wept a sad tear in her bucket of beer,
> As she thought of the cold night ahead,
> When a gentleman dapper
> Stepped out of the crapper,
> And these are the words that he saaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiid :
>
> "Her mother never told her
> All the things a young girl should know -
> About the ways of college men,
> And how they come and go. (OOOOOOOOO moooost - leeee goooooooooooo
> !!!!!)
> Age has now taken her beauty,
> And Sin has left its sad scar.
> So think of your mothers and sisters, boys,
> And let her....sleep under...the baaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrr !
>
> And so we end another trip down Memory Lane, brought to you by Serutan.
> And Serutan, spelled backwards, is "Nature's" !
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Children's chant
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Feb 1, 2005, at 10:13 AM, George Thompson wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: George Thompson
>> Subject: Re: Children's chant
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Larry Horn submits:
>>
>>> and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
>>> course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,
>>>
>>> Hitler # had only one, left ball,
>>> Goering # had two but they were small.
>>> Himmler # had something similar,
>>> And Goebbals
>>> Had no balls
>>> At all.
>>>
>>
>> Brendan Behan quotes this in Borstal Boy.
>>
>> GAT
>>
>> George A. Thompson
>> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
>> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>>
>
> This was also very popular as a barracks time-killer and
> mood-lightener, when I was in the Army, except that it was Hitler who
> had no balls at all.
>
> There were a couple of other barracks ballads that I can't quite
> recall, but which someone else may recognize.
>
> I don't want to join the Army
> I don't want to go to war
> I don't want to get me arse shah-toff
> Etc.
>
> ?...?
> ?...?
> A gentleman dapper
> Stepped out of the crapper
> ?...?
> ?...?
> Her mother never told (or "taught"?) her
> The things a young girl should know
> Etc.
>
> There was also a chant used only by NCO's to troops being formed up for
> inspection:
>
> Dress right!
> Dress!
> Dress and cover!
> Dress and cover!
> Dress it up and cover down!
> Eighteen inches all around!
> Dress and cover!
> Dress and cover!
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb  2 04:23:32 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:23:32 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <E1Cw8Ym-0003JQ-00@mx05.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.232332.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You're familiar with the supposed Chinese curse, "May you live in
interesting times!" no doubt. I once lived an interesting life. As the
guy said after stripping himself naked and then leaping into a cactus
patch, "It seemed like a good idea, at the time." Oh, well. Old too
soon; smart too late.

-Wilson

On Feb 1, 2005, at 7:24 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson, you are a veritable gold mine of seedy information. I am
> always in awe of your
> word whored - I mean "hoard."
>
> By my students' standards, Jon Stewart *is* a senior citizen. Where
> that leaves us, I just don't want to think about.
>
> JL
>
>
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Feb 1, 2005, at 1:58 PM, Baker, John wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: "Baker, John"
>> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> The earliest I see on Westlaw is the Seattle-Times, 6/22/1986,
>> where it's a reference to Bo Jackson. But Westlaw poops out around
>> that time, so the absence of earlier cites there is not significant.
>> I've always heard this as referring to Frank Sinatra, and indeed there
>> is a 9/16/1987 use in the Boston Globe to refer to Sinatra.
>>
>> It's got to go back farther than this. What surprised me was
>> the vast range of people to whom it can refer.
>>
>> John Baker
>
>
>> "It's got to go back farther than this."
>
> You mean, WRT a citation in print? (BTW, congratulations on your use of
> "farther" in this environment.) I first heard a very similar phrase in
> 1954 - the year that I graduated from high school and I have no reason
> to think that the first person that I heard say it also coined it.
>
> A couple of weeks back, I heard Jon Stewart use the phrase, "Get your
> heels to clicking." ("Get to stepping" was an occasional variant.) Not
> only was this the first time that I'd ever a white person use this, but
> it was also the first time that I'd heard it said since the mid-'60's
> in L.A. and the first time that I'd heard it used by a "square," in
> this case, someone who wasn't a pimp. Rarely - any whore who'd been
> broken in and turned out for a week or so would know better than to do
> anything that would cause her pimp to have to take her to task - a pimp
> might use this phrase to enjoin his whores to work harder, not smarter,
> when he was, e.g. gambling away "his" money faster than his whores
> could bring it in.
>
> The phrase's meaning and use were so restricted back in the day that
> I'm stunned and amazed that any non-senior citizen at all living in the
> 21st century could possibly have even heard it, let alone find a reason
> to use it.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On
>> Behalf
>> Of Laurence Horn
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:14 AM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
>>
>>
>> At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>> Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>>> say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."
>>
>> This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while. A highlight
>> of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
>> anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it." At least
>> since the late 90's. Maybe first with Michael Jordan? Can you help
>> narrow it down, Alice?
>>
>> larry
>>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Feb  2 05:17:14 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 00:17:14 -0500
Subject: red states, blue states (redux)
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.001714.0500.>

After the WOTY selection of "red/blue/purple states", I offered some
evidence that the red=Rep/blue=Dem color scheme might go all the way back
to the Washington Post's electoral map of 1908:

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0501A&L=ads-l&P=R9102

Regardless of what the Post did nearly a century ago, TV networks did not
regularly assign red to Republicans and blue to Democrats in the color-TV
era.  (I guess the overwhelming "red state/blue state" rhetoric of 2000
and 2004 had, uh, "colored" my memory.)  I discovered this after reading a
recent blog entry by Mickey Kaus on Slate:

-----
http://slate.msn.com/id/2112917/
This has to be old, but has someone written the piece that actually
explains how Republican states became "red," even though red is the color
of communism and blue is the color of Republican hair? ... It wasn't
always so. Here's a site that goes with the originally more intuitive
Dems-are-red convention. ... P.S.: Safire mentioned the shift in a column
but didn't come close to getting to the bottom of the media conspiracy.
... Update: Kevin Drum has an on-point post that raises as many questions
as it answers!
-----

Kaus links to the following very informative piece by Kevin Drum (who
writes the "Political Animal" blog for the Washington Monthly):

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_11/005157.php

Apparently, the networks decided in 1976 that the color of the incumbent
party would alternate every 4 years, in order to avoid any appearance of
favoritism.  Interestingly, the color coding is supposed to switch in
2008, with blue for Republicans and red for Democrats (as was often the
case from 1976 to 1996).  Drum notes that "the red state/blue state divide
has now become so entrenched it's hard to imagine anyone switching colors
at this point."  I would agree-- the "red/blue/purple" concept is here to
stay (no passing fancy like, say, "bushlips"!).


--Ben Zimmer


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Feb  2 06:06:14 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 01:06:14 -0500
Subject: Wilde Quotation
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.010614.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred,

I checked Proquest using ["my genius"/declare] and ["nothing to
declare"/genius] and found nothing before 1922 that was about Wilde.

SC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 5:09 PM
Subject: Wilde Quotation


> I am again in a place without access to ProQuest Historical Newspapers.
> Is anyone willing to search PQHN to see whether there are any pre-1916
> occurrences of Oscar Wilde's quotation, "I have nothing to declare except
> my genius"?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb  2 08:54:43 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 03:54:43 EST
Subject: Nothing to declare; Sin to steal a pin (1868); Red Garlic & Big
 Apple
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.035443.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NOTHING TO DECLARE
...
I haven't yet tried the American Periodical Series Online, but I regret to
report (like Sam) that I have nothing to declare. I'm no genius.
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
SIN TO STEAL A PIN
...
More on this proverb.
...
...
(MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL)
...

    *   _The Living age ... / Volume 91, Issue 1178_
(http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=/moa/livn/livn009
1/&tif=00779.TIF&cite=http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notis
id=ABR0102-0091-15) : pp.  769-824
    *   _p. 810_
(http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=/moa/livn/livn0091/&tif=00820.TIF&cite=http://cdl.lib
rary.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABR0102-0091-15)
    *   1 match of 'sin to steal a pin'


____________________________________
in:     Title: The Living age ... / Volume 91, Issue 1178  Publisher: The
Living age co. inc. etc. Publication Date: December 29, 1866
...
...otherwise they would be of nor more poetical value than the assertion
that two and two make four, or that it is a sin to steal a pin.
...
...
...
(MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN)


Title: The philosophers of  Foufouville.
Publication date:  1868.
Collection: Making of  America Books

_Page  168_
(http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;g=moagrp;xc=1;sid=1744a2ae6a7b9822c283142692c64624;q1=sin%20to%20steal%20a%20pi
n;rgn=full%20text;idno=AEW1145.0001.001;view=image;seq=00000173)   - 1  term
matching "sin to steal a pin"
...
What was his disgust when he found that the document was  a sermon on the sin
of theft! It began with the poetical assertion that
...
"It is a sin to steal a pin,--
Much more to steal a greater thing."
...
...




Title: Varieties
Publication Info.:  Appletons' journal: a magazine of general literature. /
Volume 4, Issue 83, Oct  29, 1870, pp.535
Collection: Making of  America Journal Articles

_Varieties, p.535_
(http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moajrnl;cc=moajrnl;g=moagrp;xc=1;sid=470d746f0bb8e4f6aedf4afda0ed413c;q1=sin%20to%2
0steal%20a%20pin;rgn=full%20text;idno=acw8433.1-04.083;view=image;seq=0579)
_Page  535_
(http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moajrnl;cc=moajrnl;g=moagrp;xc=1;sid=470d746f0bb8e4f6aedf4afda0ed413c;q1=sin%20to%20steal%
20a%20pin;rgn=full%20text;idno=acw8433.1-04.083;view=image;seq=0579)   - 1
term matching "sin to steal a pin"




...
A colored poet of Memphis has reduced the Fifteenth  Amendment and the
Enforcement Bill to rhyme, as follows:
...'
"It is a sin to steal a pin.
A crime to cut a throat--
But a darned sight bigger to stop a nigger
>From putting in his vote."
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC
...
WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON MONDAY?--Bangkok Grand  Palace, 882 First Avenue
between East 49th and 50th streets. This is near the  UN. Good food,
reasonable prices.
...
WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON TUESDAY?--Red Garlic (Thai  Seafood Cuisine),
916 Eighth Avenue between West 54th and 55th streets. I was  told that the owner
has several NYC Thai restaurants under different names. I  tried PLA LAD
PRIG, "The most famous Thai fish dish, deep-fried whole red  snapper with chili,
pepper & red garlic chili sauce." I didn't particularly  care for it, but it's
still a nice place.
...
At the entrance, I picked up NYC OFFICIAL CITY GUIDE  (citygui
demagazine.com), weekly, January 27, 2005. This is from page 196 on  Dining:
...
_Red Garlic_
Try some of New York City's freshest seafood Thai  cuisine at this casual and
friendly restaurant. If you're looking for a dining  recommendation, be sure
to try the roasted rice wrapped with banana leaf. (...)  _www.redgarlic.com_
(http://www.redgarlic.com)
...
On the column next to this was a highlighted  trivia blurb that said this:
...
Did you know that "The Big Apple" is a term coined by  musicians meaning to
play "the big time"? A club in Harlem, once called "The Big  Apple," is now a
pharmacy.
...
...
SOMEBODY SHOOT ME! I gave them the correct information  thirteen years ago,
when its former president Charles Gillett was still alive!  I've told them for
thirteen years that the black stablehands who called New York  City "the Big
Apple" must be honored by searching for any surviving relatives as  soon as
possible! I passed a city law eight years ago! "The Big  Apple" wasn't coined by
musicians! The Big Apple club is not now a  pharmacy! This is in the goddamn
Official City  Guide!


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Wed Feb  2 09:50:33 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:50:33 +0000
Subject: Children's chant
In-Reply-To: <200502012356.j11NuY2h001629@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.095033.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 1/2/05 11:56 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Children's chant
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> I may be able to help you out there, young man.  The 1914-18 version of "I
> Don't Want to Join the Army" (based on an English music-hall tune) was as
> follows:
>
> (NOT FOR OFFENDABLE PEOPLE !)
>
> I don't want to be a soldier !
> I don't want to go to war !
> I'd rather hang around
> Piccadilly Underground,
> Living on the earnings of a lay-dee ty-pist !
> I don't want a bayonet up my arsehole !
> I don't want my ballocks shot away !
> I'd rather stay in England,
> Merry, merry England,
> And fornicate my fucking life away !

> JL

In the version I know, the lay-dee ty-pist is a high-flown lay-dee.
Neil Crawford


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Wed Feb  2 10:15:20 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:15:20 +0000
Subject: peenee/peenie/peeny
In-Reply-To: <200502020319.j123JwmW005163@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.101520.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 2/2/05 3:19 am, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> Subject:      Re: children's chant
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> So, there really is a word, "peeny." I ran across it in a novel, back
> in the '70's. I thought the author had invented it.
>
> -Wilson

A couple of variant spellings:

'An interesting tribe are the Sweenies,
Renowned for the length of their peenies.
The hair on their balls
Sweeps the floors of their halls,
But they don't look at women, the meanies.'
- G. Legman, 'The Limerick', Les Hautes Etudes, Paris, 1953, No.244

'At that age [four], whatever he loves he considers the same as his peenee,
the most important part of himself and he's terrified of losing it.'
- Philip Barrows [Daniel R. Tuite], 'Whores, Queers and Others', Vol 1,
Traveller's Companion, NY, 1967, 161

-Neil Crawford
>
> On Feb 1, 2005, at 2:17 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
>> Subject:      Re: children's chant
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>> Larry Scroggs <larry at SCROGGS.COM>notes:
>>>>>>>
>> Heard at my school in the late 1950s.
>>
>> Whistle while you work
>> Hitler was a jerk
>> Neeny-neeny*
>> Hossifini*
>> Mussolini*
>> Bit his peeny*
>> Then it wouldn't work
>> -- Mark


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Feb  2 10:46:04 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 05:46:04 -0500
Subject: Lockjaw: Locust Valley (1970), Long Island (1977),
 Larchmont (1986)
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.054604.0500.>

Digging up a couple of Safire's "On Language" columns...

-----
Dec. 21, 1986:
Larchmont lockjaw is a mysterious message left for me, with no further
explanation, by my colleague Russell Baker. This alliterative geographic
slur may refer to a type of speech by yuppies, but since neither Mr. Baker
nor I am young or upwardly mobile, I must assume it has something to do
with the accent of upper-class lowerclassmen returning to suburbia from
ritzy finishing schools; obviously, more research is needed on this
locution.
-----
Jan. 18, 1987:
It began in a New York minute after a piece about geographical
derogations, the use of place names as modifiers to sneer at a trait or an
occupation. My colleague Russell Baker passed along a cryptic message -
"Larchmont lockjaw" - which I took to mean the pronunciation affected by
yuppies. I then passed it along to the Philadelphia lawyers who read this
column as the speech affected by "upper-class lowerclassmen returning to
suburbia."
Came the deluge. "The correct phrase is Locust Valley lockjaw," insists
Arthur Knapp Jr. of Larchmont, N.Y., where the famed Larchmont Yacht Club
faces Locust Valley, L.I., across the Long Island Sound barrier. He claims
that locution denotes the speech of "the yacht-racing members of the
highly social Seawanhaka Corinthian Yacht Club located on Oyster Bay, many
of whom live in or around Locust Valley." Mr. Knapp, a prominent
yachtsman, says, "You cannot pin that way of talking on Larchmont. We are
too close to the 'Bronnix' for that to happen."
-----

Safire quotes Willard Espy, who recalls "Larchmont lockjaw" from the early
'30s.  I can't find any cites for it before the '86 "On Language" column.
It's preceded in the databases by "Locust Valley lockjaw" and "Long Island
lockjaw", but I haven't found anything before the '70s.

-----
1970 _New York Times Magazine_ 13 Sep. 83 She spoke, as many of the women
did, in a tongue called Locust Valley Lockjaw, a passionless manner of
speaking that can flatten a superlative against the roof of the mouth
until it comes out sounding like understatement.
-----
1977 _Washington Post_ 1 May M1 (Nexis) Her voice, her accent are
expected, the slightly British tones that reflect the proper Boston
upbringing with the slightly clenched teeth, known in some quarters as
"Long Island lockjaw," that reflect the Old Westbury residence.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From silliman at GMAIL.COM  Wed Feb  2 11:59:20 2005
From: silliman at GMAIL.COM (Ron Silliman)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 06:59:20 -0500
Subject: Numbers for words (was Teen Lingo Site)
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.065920.0500.SILLIMAN@GMAIL.COM>

I noted that that site identifies as "police call numbers" a series of
codes 187, 211, 411. Those codes are in fact the sections of the
California Penal Code under which the various crimes -- e.g. homocide
at 187 -- are declared to be illegal. So that language has already
gone through one level of abstraction whenever a police dispatcher
uses the number rather than the act to describe an event. Because so
many TV shows are set in California, an awful lot of state code has
become more widely known as generic terms for different events and
conditions. Thus a heavy metal band some years back had an album (in
pre-CD days) called 5150, the code under which a person could be
committed as a danger to him- or her-self and others.

Ron Silliman


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb  2 13:04:59 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:04:59 -0500
Subject: Burma-Shave
In-Reply-To: <23dd09123da705.23da70523dd091@nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.080459.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, George Thompson wrote:

> GAT, the guy who still looks things up in books, notes that there is an
> article on the Burma-Shave roadside advertisements in the St. James
> Encyclopedia of Popular Culture (Detroit : St. James Press, c2000

Is anyone able to suggest to me the one or two most famous Burma-Shave
jingles?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Feb  2 13:45:58 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:45:58 -0500
Subject: Numbers for words (was Teen Lingo Site)
In-Reply-To: <44dbacd805020203594d86f5ca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.084558.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 2, 2005, at 06:59, Ron Silliman wrote:
>  Thus a heavy metal band some years back had an album (in
> pre-CD days) called 5150

I would hardly call Van Halen a heavy metal band. Maybe not even metal.
How about just rock? Loud rock? Hair band? Hair band formerly fronted
by a guy who's now a balding EMT?

Also, nitpick central, but in 1986 53 million CD players were sold in
the US (according to this page:
<http://www.oneoffcd.com/info/historycd.cfm>).

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb  2 15:08:20 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:08:20 -0500
Subject: peenee/peenie/peeny
In-Reply-To: <BE2658B8.1A1A%neil@typog.co.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.100820.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:15 AM +0000 2/2/05, neil wrote:
>on 2/2/05 3:19 am, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote:
>
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>  -----------------------
>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>  Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>>  Subject:      Re: children's chant
>>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--> -
>>
>>  So, there really is a word, "peeny." I ran across it in a novel, back
>>  in the '70's. I thought the author had invented it.
>>
>>  -Wilson
>
>A couple of variant spellings:
>
>'An interesting tribe are the Sweenies,
>Renowned for the length of their peenies.

Another possibility is that this is a reanalysis of Lat. _penes_, the
straightforward plural of the 3rd declension noun _penis_.  (Macrons
omitted out of delicacy, since length is variable.)

L

>The hair on their balls
>Sweeps the floors of their halls,
>But they don't look at women, the meanies.'
>- G. Legman, 'The Limerick', Les Hautes Etudes, Paris, 1953, No.244
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  2 15:08:16 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 07:08:16 -0800
Subject: "withdrawl" = withdraw
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.070816.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From a customer review at Amazon.com:

"In 1954, the French had to withdrawl and the Genevea accords were signed. This called for Ho Chi Minh and his group to withdrawl to the North of the country and the French puppet Bao Dai's government to be in control of the South."

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060921072/qid=1107356566/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/102-0432862-1022504


JL


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo!


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb  2 15:24:37 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:24:37 -0600
Subject: Burma-Shave
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.092437.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A Peach looks good
With Lots of Fuzz
Man's no Peach
And Never Was
Burma Shave


>
> Is anyone able to suggest to me the one or two most famous
> Burma-Shave jingles?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Feb  2 15:30:26 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:30:26 -0500
Subject: Somewhat off- topic
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.103026.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quite right.

I was at one time quietly proud -- well, mayby noisily proud -- of the
fact that I was the only person in my circle to have read both this
book and Charles Darwin's study of the earthworm.

Taylor's book might be interesting to David Barnhart because of the
range of evidence from history, literature and art that Taylor had to
gather.  As I recall, he concluded that the nose-thumbing gesture was
relatively recent, and a pervesion of the military slaute.

Darwin's books would be of interest to all who are interested in
earthworms and their well-being.  Among other things, he shows that
earthworms are completely indifferenct to music.  He put a tray of them
on his piano but got no reaction to whatever he played -- of course,
they all stood to attention when he played God Save the Queen; but an
English earthworm could do no less.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

----- Original Message -----
From: Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2005 10:44 pm
Subject: Re: Somewhat off- topic

> No offense, George, but, as a retired librarian who once nearly
> had a
> nervous breakdown trying - eventually, successfully - to locate a
> number of this serial for a patron, I'd like to add that this
> periodical is very often cataloged under "Folklore Fellows
> communications" and not under merely "FF communications," at some of
> this country's finer libraries.
>
> -Wilson
>
> On Feb 1, 2005, at 3:54 PM, George Thompson wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> > Subject:      Re: Somewhat off- topic
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> > --------
> >
> > Archer Taylor wrote a history of the nose-thumbing gesture: The
> > Shanghai Gesture.  Helsinki: Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia (Academia
> > Scientiarum Fennica) 1956.  76 pp.  FF communications ;  no 166.
> >
> > GAT
> >
> > George A. Thompson
> > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre",
> Northwestern> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
> > Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2005 3:35 pm
> > Subject: Somewhat off- topic
> >
> >> This query is somewhat off-topic of dialect.  Is there a
> history of
> >> gestures (e.g. middle-fingering and finger wagging [often
> >> accompanied by
> >> tsk-tsking])?  I'm sure the mummy in The Mummy Returns is
> >> anachronizingwhen he wags his finger at the young boy.  The same
> >> may be true of Walter
> >> Eckland (in Father Goose, a movie set in WWII) who is reported
> to have
> >> used a gesture of disgust and frustration by the harbour masters
> >> lackey.
> >> Regards,
> >> David
> >>
> >> barnhart at highlands.com
> >>
> >
>


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb  2 15:36:19 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:36:19 -0600
Subject: yogasm
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.093619.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From The Smoking Gun website:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0131052yogi1.html

Sex And The Yogi
Yankee great sues TBS for misappropriating his reputable name
 JANUARY 31--Claiming that his good name has been sullied by a "Sex and
the City" advertisement, baseball legend Yogi Berra has sued Turner
Broadcasting System for $10 million. In the below New York State Supreme
Court complaint, Berra, 79, contends that TBS improperly used his name
in outdoor ads (on buses and subway kiosks) promoting the cable
channel's reruns of the racy HBO show starring Sarah Jessica Parker.
Noting that he is a married grandfather and a "deeply religious man who
has maintained and continues to maintain a moral lifestyle," the former
New York Yankee claims that he has been tainted by the ad, which
references the loose lifestyle of "Sex" character Samantha, portrayed by
Kim Cattrall. The offensive ads, Berra reported, sought the definition
of the term "Yogasm." One of the possible definitions listed in the ad
was, "b) sex with Yogi Berra." The correct answer was "c) what Samantha
has with a guy from yoga class."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb  2 15:41:50 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:41:50 -0500
Subject: "withdrawl" = withdraw
In-Reply-To: <20050202150816.28500.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.104150.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:08 AM -0800 2/2/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>  >From a customer review at Amazon.com:
>
>"In 1954, the French had to withdrawl and the Genevea accords were
>signed. This called for Ho Chi Minh and his group to withdrawl to
>the North of the country and the French puppet Bao Dai's government
>to be in control of the South."
>
Yes, and the Vietnam analogy is apropos, since the term goes back to
our own Civil War/War Between the States/War of Northern Aggression,
when Yankee soldiers noticed the funny way the Rebels spoke--"with
drawl"--as they were retreating under heavy fire from outposts
previously held.

Larry


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Feb  2 15:42:47 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:42:47 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=EF=BF=BD_=EF=BF=BD_=EF=BF=BD_=22Mazda_bul?=
 =?iso-8859-1?Q?bs=22?=
In-Reply-To: <20050202050030.9C5FBB250C@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.104247.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Did James Smith <jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM> really put bunches of weird
characters in his subject line?
I see the sequence

        lowercase i-dieresis
        inverted question mark
        "1/2" character
        spacebar

iterated three times before the opening quotation mark of

        "Mazda bulbs"

Procrastinating minds want to know.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Feb  2 15:43:21 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:43:21 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <20050202050030.9C5FBB250C@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.104321.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM> reminisces:
>>>
 I don't know if anyone other than myself ever used this as a cynical catch
phrase, but there was an NBC sitcom about 1964 inspired, they said. by the
life and writings of James Thurber which was called, "My Life and Welcome to
It."
 <<<

My {{World}} and Welcome to It, IIRC.

mark by hand


From bhunter3 at MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Feb  2 15:42:13 2005
From: bhunter3 at MINDSPRING.COM (Bruce Hunter)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 07:42:13 -0800
Subject: Burma-Shave
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.074213.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Is anyone able to suggest to me the one or two most famous
> Burma-Shave jingles?
Safety should not
Be left to chance.
That's why belts
Are sold with pants.
Burma Shave

Bruce Hunter


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Feb  2 16:22:01 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:22:01 -0500
Subject: disposable garbage bags
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.112201.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from a friend:

See below for an amusing LJ entry from Martin [...], and my response.

>>>>>

> I have just bought, I kid you not, a packet of "disposable garbage bags".
> If that's a retronym, I *really* don't want to know.

    My one thought is that it's perhaps a back-translation of a
    mistranslation of biodegradable? Otherwise, it really doesn't make sense.

<<<<<

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Feb  2 16:26:21 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:26:21 -0500
Subject: Burma-Shave
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.112621.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There are discussions of the Burma-Shave ads in several other handbooks
of popular culture.  One gives the first and the last jingle, another
gives only parts of the jingles.  The fact that no jingle is quoted by
more than one source suggests that there isn't a "most famous" one.
The St. James Encycl, that I cited yesterday, quotes "Pity all / the
Mighty Caesars / They pulled / each whisker out / with tweezers / Burma-
Shave"; "Does your husband / misbehave / grunt and grumble / rant and
rave / shoot the brute some / Burma-Shave"; "The answer to / a maiden's
prayer / is not a chin / of stubby hair / Burma-Shave"; "Train
approaching / Whistle squealing / pause / avoid that / run-down
feeling. / [Burma-Shave]"
The other books are Ray B. Browne, The Guide to United States Popular
Culture, Bowling Green State University Popular Press, 2001; William H.
Young, The 1930s.  (American Popular Culture through History) Greenwood
Press, 2002; Tad Tuleja, The New York Public Library Book of Popular
Americana, Macmillan, 1994.

Jerry Kane, Wilson Gray and Alan Baragona have already posted Burma-
Shave quatrains that stuck in their memories.

I have lured my wife into lurking over our discussions, in the hope
that she will occasionally channel for the spirit of her mother, one of
the last of the old-time prescriptivist high-school English teachers.
My wife has a favorite Burma-Shave jingle which I will refrain from
posting myself until later this week, to give her a chance to step
forward.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2005 8:04 am
Subject: Re: Burma-Shave

> On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, George Thompson wrote:
>
> > GAT, the guy who still looks things up in books, notes that
> there is an
> > article on the Burma-Shave roadside advertisements in the St. James
> > Encyclopedia of Popular Culture (Detroit : St. James Press, c2000
>
> Is anyone able to suggest to me the one or two most famous Burma-Shave
> jingles?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF
> QUOTATIONS  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale
> University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu
> http://quotationdictionary.com-------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  2 16:52:12 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:52:12 -0800
Subject: "withdrawl" = withdraw
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.085212.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, Larry. I couldn't have said it better myself.

JL

Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: "withdrawl" = withdraw
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 7:08 AM -0800 2/2/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> >From a customer review at Amazon.com:
>
>"In 1954, the French had to withdrawl and the Genevea accords were
>signed. This called for Ho Chi Minh and his group to withdrawl to
>the North of the country and the French puppet Bao Dai's government
>to be in control of the South."
>
Yes, and the Vietnam analogy is apropos, since the term goes back to
our own Civil War/War Between the States/War of Northern Aggression,
when Yankee soldiers noticed the funny way the Rebels spoke--"with
drawl"--as they were retreating under heavy fire from outposts
previously held.

Larry

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  2 16:53:15 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:53:15 -0800
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.085315.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU> wrote:---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mark A. Mandel"
Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jonathan Lighter reminisces:
>>>
I don't know if anyone other than myself ever used this as a cynical catch
phrase, but there was an NBC sitcom about 1964 inspired, they said. by the
life and writings of James Thurber which was called, "My Life and Welcome to
It."
<<<

My {{World}} and Welcome to It, IIRC.

mark by hand



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Feb  2 16:56:55 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:56:55 -0800
Subject: Burma-Shave
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502020804190.31462-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.085655.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Around the curve
Lickety-split
It's a beautiful car
Wasn't it?
Burma Shave

(Don't know whether it's the most famous, but it's the only one I remember
by heart.)

Peter Mc.

--On Wednesday, February 2, 2005 8:04 AM -0500 Fred Shapiro
<fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> wrote:

> Is anyone able to suggest to me the one or two most famous Burma-Shave
> jingles?



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU  Wed Feb  2 17:13:41 2005
From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:13:41 -0600
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
In-Reply-To: <6F31AA8C-7410-11D9-B501-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.111341.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

After having been introduced to the term 'frottage' through this discussion,
I was amused to hear it used on a home improvement show last night. In that
context it's apparently used to describe a technique of texturing a freshly
painted surface by rubbing paper against it - a development no doubt of OED
sense 2.


On 1/31/05 11:16 PM, "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU> wrote:


> in my experience they do.  frottage is one of what i think of as the
> Four Ways and Places for gay men: on the body, in the hand, in the
> mouth, in the ass.  very safe, and easily allows for lots of affection.
>   it's practically decorous.
>
> of course, other people's mileages certainly vary.
>
> arnold


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Feb  2 17:43:05 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:43:05 -0500
Subject: Somewhat off- topic
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.124305.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Hollis,

Perhaps Father Walter would find this interesting.  Apropos of this, when
did the sign of the cross begin.  Isn't that about the most common
religious gesture?

Love,
Dave

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Wednesday, February
02, 2005 at 10:30 AM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: Somewhat off- topic
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Quite right.
>
>I was at one time quietly proud -- well, mayby noisily proud -- of the
>fact that I was the only person in my circle to have read both this
>book and Charles Darwin's study of the earthworm.
>
>Taylor's book might be interesting to David Barnhart because of the
>range of evidence from history, literature and art that Taylor had to
>gather.  As I recall, he concluded that the nose-thumbing gesture was
>relatively recent, and a pervesion of the military slaute.
>
>Darwin's books would be of interest to all who are interested in
>earthworms and their well-being.  Among other things, he shows that
>earthworms are completely indifferenct to music.  He put a tray of them
>on his piano but got no reaction to whatever he played -- of course,
>they all stood to attention when he played God Save the Queen; but an
>English earthworm could do no less.
>
>GAT
>
>George A. Thompson
>Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
>Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2005 10:44 pm
>Subject: Re: Somewhat off- topic
>
>> No offense, George, but, as a retired librarian who once nearly
>> had a
>> nervous breakdown trying - eventually, successfully - to locate a
>> number of this serial for a patron, I'd like to add that this
>> periodical is very often cataloged under "Folklore Fellows
>> communications" and not under merely "FF communications," at some of
>> this country's finer libraries.
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>> On Feb 1, 2005, at 3:54 PM, George Thompson wrote:
>>
>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> > -----------------------
>> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster:       George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
>> > Subject:      Re: Somewhat off- topic
>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------
>> > --------
>> >
>> > Archer Taylor wrote a history of the nose-thumbing gesture: The
>> > Shanghai Gesture.  Helsinki: Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia (Academia
>> > Scientiarum Fennica) 1956.  76 pp.  FF communications ;  no 166.
>> >
>> > GAT
>> >
>> > George A. Thompson
>> > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre",
>> Northwestern> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
>> > Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2005 3:35 pm
>> > Subject: Somewhat off- topic
>> >
>> >> This query is somewhat off-topic of dialect.  Is there a
>> history of
>> >> gestures (e.g. middle-fingering and finger wagging [often
>> >> accompanied by
>> >> tsk-tsking])?  I'm sure the mummy in The Mummy Returns is
>> >> anachronizingwhen he wags his finger at the young boy.  The same
>> >> may be true of Walter
>> >> Eckland (in Father Goose, a movie set in WWII) who is reported
>> to have
>> >> used a gesture of disgust and frustration by the harbour masters
>> >> lackey.
>> >> Regards,
>> >> David
>> >>
>> >> barnhart at highlands.com
>> >>
>> >
>>


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Feb  2 17:45:33 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:45:33 -0500
Subject: Somewhat off- topic
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.124533.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry for the personal message sent to me wife.

Regards,
David


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb  2 17:52:43 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:52:43 -0500
Subject: disposable garbage bags
In-Reply-To: <20050202111839.U44967@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.125243.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:22 AM -0500 2/2/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>from a friend:
>
>See below for an amusing LJ entry from Martin [...], and my response.
>
>>>>>>
>
>>I have just bought, I kid you not, a packet of "disposable garbage bags".
>>If that's a retronym, I *really* don't want to know.

a double-barreled one at that:
[disposable [garbage bag]] vs. [[disposable garbage] bag]

and it's not easy to find bags for the non-disposable kind

L


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Feb  2 17:58:15 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:58:15 -0500
Subject: disposable garbage bags
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.125815.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The term has come to be a misnomer.  They are used for so much else:
moving, storing, laundry, the list is nearly endless.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Wed Feb  2 18:08:24 2005
From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:08:24 -0600
Subject: Burma-Shave
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1107334615@[10.218.201.228]>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.120824.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have been wondering, on reading all these Burma Shave jingles, who
wrote them.  Was it a committee?  One bright light in an ad agency?
Might this be documented anywhere?

Victoria


Victoria Neufeldt
727 9th Street East
Saskatoon, Sask.
S7H 0M6
Canada
Tel: 306-955-8910




On Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:57 AM, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>
> Around the curve
> Lickety-split
> It's a beautiful car
> Wasn't it?
> Burma Shave
>
> (Don't know whether it's the most famous, but it's the only
> one I remember
> by heart.)
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> --On Wednesday, February 2, 2005 8:04 AM -0500 Fred Shapiro
> <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>
> > Is anyone able to suggest to me the one or two most
> famous Burma-Shave
> > jingles?
>
>
>
> *****************************************************************
> Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Feb  2 18:10:17 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:10:17 -0500
Subject: Big Apple
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.131017.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Isn't it time for someone to do a thesis on the genealogies of all the
various accounts of how the Big Apple got its name? Who cited whom & when ,
and why was that version preferred over another, etc?  It's clear there
must be masses of material, even if only publication in periodicals were to
be used.
AM

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Feb  2 18:24:48 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:24:48 -0500
Subject: disposable garbage bags
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e01ce01ee3b9aca00dfc62888.1ce01f9@chain.highlands.com>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.132448.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 I can't remember when these things first became a standard element of the
No. American lifestyle, but I clearly remember the feeling of shock --
outrage, really -- when I noticed that it was expected that people would
buy bags for the purpose of throwing them away.
Ah, such innocence!
A. Murie


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Feb  2 18:39:32 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:39:32 -0800
Subject: Horizontal bubbles
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.103932.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's a blend that was new to me and that I pass along for the list's
reading pleasure.  It's from an analysis by Todd S. Purdum of the New York
Times News Service, and it appeared in a front-page story in the 1/29/05
issue of The Oregonian (Portland, OR):

"Nearly two years after the U.S. invasion of Iraq, such comparisons are no
longer dismissed in mainstream political discourse as facile and flawed,
but are instead bubbling to the fore."

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Feb  2 20:19:17 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:19:17 -0500
Subject: disposable garbage bags
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.151917.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I recall municipal garbage collectors (1924) (aka garbagemen [1888]) using
large sheets of burlap upon which to dump garbage from galvanized garbage
pails (1906) (which I can remember cleaning) and their hefting them over
their should to schlep to the garbage truck (1916).  I don't remember ever
hearing the term garbage box (1867).

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Wednesday, February
02, 2005 at 1:24 PM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
>Subject:      Re: disposable garbage bags
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I can't remember when these things first became a standard element of the
>No. American lifestyle, but I clearly remember the feeling of shock --
>outrage, really -- when I noticed that it was expected that people would
>buy bags for the purpose of throwing them away.
>Ah, such innocence!
>A. Murie


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Feb  2 20:21:44 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:21:44 -0500
Subject: my mistake: garbage can (1906) not garbage pail
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.152144.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Wednesday, February
02, 2005 at 3:19 PM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
>Subject:      Re: disposable garbage bags
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I recall municipal garbage collectors (1924) (aka garbagemen [1888]) using
>large sheets of burlap upon which to dump garbage from galvanized garbage
>pails (1906) (which I can remember cleaning) and their hefting them over
>their should to schlep to the garbage truck (1916).  I don't remember ever
>hearing the term garbage box (1867).
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>barnhart at highlands.com
>
>American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Wednesday, February
>02, 2005 at 1:24 PM -0500 wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
>>Subject:      Re: disposable garbage bags
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I can't remember when these things first became a standard element of
>the
>>No. American lifestyle, but I clearly remember the feeling of shock --
>>outrage, really -- when I noticed that it was expected that people would
>>buy bags for the purpose of throwing them away.
>>Ah, such innocence!
>>A. Murie


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb  2 20:28:51 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 14:28:51 -0600
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.142851.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From the Sports Law Blog
http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2005/01/not-defamatory-evel-famous-darede
vil.html


"Famous daredevil Evel Knievel had his lawsuit against ESPN thrown out
by a federal appeals court yesterday. Knievel and his wife had sued ESPN
for defamation stemming from a caption to a picture posted on its
website (which has since been taken down). The picture, of Knievel and
his wife, had a caption that read: "Evel Knievel proves that you're
never too old to be a pimp."

This is of interest because the decision centered on the various slang
meanings of the word "pimp".  The court, whose decision is linked in the
above blog entry, determined that in this case, a non-literal meaning
should be inferred, based on the context and appearance of many other
slang terms; therefore it was not reasonable to assume or infer (as,
apparently Knievel and/or his attorneys did) that ESPN was saying that
Evel Knievel was in fact a pimp, and had turned out his wife.

The decision cites Lighter's HDAS.  Jon is now a part of legal history
(and may have been for some time, for all I know).


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Feb  2 20:45:58 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:45:58 -0500
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.154558.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Jon's been cited before, for (in chronological order) "goombah," "Boss of Bosses," "jack," "cap," "blood," "jack-off," "bull," "no-show," and, in the Knievel case, "kick it," "hardcore," and "hottie."

        If Jon or anyone else needs copies or cites, let me know, on-list or off-list as appropriate.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Mullins, Bill
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:29 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?


The decision cites Lighter's HDAS.  Jon is now a part of legal history
(and may have been for some time, for all I know).


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Feb  2 20:50:54 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:50:54 -0500
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B48@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.155054.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 03:45:58PM -0500, Baker, John wrote:
>
>         Jon's been cited before, for (in chronological
> order) "goombah," "Boss of Bosses," "jack," "cap," "blood,"
> "jack-off," "bull," "no-show," and, in the Knievel case,
> "kick it," "hardcore," and "hottie."  If Jon or anyone else
> needs copies or cites, let me know, on-list or off-list as
> appropriate.

Since "Boss of Bosses" (and, for that matter, "capo di tutti
capi") does not appear in HDAS, I'm curious to know how Jon
was cited for this. Was HDAS cited to show its lack of entry
for this term?

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb  2 21:21:22 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:21:22 -0500
Subject: "Grass Roots"
In-Reply-To: <200501300826.j0U8Q8Ht026399@pantheon-po07.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.162122.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Michael Quinion, I believe, asked about this recently.  I searched
ProQuest Historical Newspapers/American Periodical Series, and the hits
there seem to start in July 1912, the same month as the OED's first use.
It does seem that the term started then in connection with the Roosevelt
"Bull Moose" candidacy for president.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Feb  2 21:20:48 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:20:48 -0800
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.132048.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is an interesting verdict. In our school district, guilt is determined by the hearer's perception (maybe not even the one to whom a comment is directed), not the intent of speaker.  So, "You're a dork!" is sexual harassment if anyone in earshot understands 'dork' to mean the male member.  Showing another definition, such as "fool, nerd, etc." in a dictionary is no defense. My question is whether a kid can take the school district to court after having been punished for sexual harrassment after saying "you're a dork', using the -I-meant-nerd-not-male-member-and-here-it, ie.nerd,-is-in- the-dictionary-defense.  Would our school district have to change its policy?
Fritz


>>> Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL 02/02/05 12:28PM >>>
>From the Sports Law Blog
http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2005/01/not-defamatory-evel-famous-darede
vil.html


"Famous daredevil Evel Knievel had his lawsuit against ESPN thrown out
by a federal appeals court yesterday. Knievel and his wife had sued ESPN
for defamation stemming from a caption to a picture posted on its
website (which has since been taken down). The picture, of Knievel and
his wife, had a caption that read: "Evel Knievel proves that you're
never too old to be a pimp."

This is of interest because the decision centered on the various slang
meanings of the word "pimp".  The court, whose decision is linked in the
above blog entry, determined that in this case, a non-literal meaning
should be inferred, based on the context and appearance of many other
slang terms; therefore it was not reasonable to assume or infer (as,
apparently Knievel and/or his attorneys did) that ESPN was saying that
Evel Knievel was in fact a pimp, and had turned out his wife.

The decision cites Lighter's HDAS.  Jon is now a part of legal history
(and may have been for some time, for all I know).


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Feb  2 21:27:21 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:27:21 -0500
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.162721.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        No, it apparently was from a textual discussion.  See the fourth paragraph below.

        <<The term "Boss of Bosses" does not appear in standard dictionaries. To the extent that it has a literal meaning, the term means something akin to "the supervisor of supervisors." The literal meaning of the term, then, is not defamatory.

        To people of ordinary intelligence, the term could have at least two other meanings. One, that of a "political boss," is not defamatory; the other, meaning "mob boss" or "Mafia don," could be defamatory. Thus, the question becomes whether the term "Boss of Bosses" fairly implies that Senator Lynch was the head of the Mafia. In concluding that the statement could not be so read, the Appellate Division reasoned that the statement was not subject to verification. Even if the statement were verifiable, we conclude that taken in context it would not be defamatory.

        The alleged facts in the advertisement--that Senator Lynch has been "a partner or officer in three mob-owned companies" and has "mobsters" as "business partners" and "clients"--suggest a connection to organized crime. These "facts," however, do not support the assertion that Senator Lynch is the "boss of bosses" of the Mafia.

        The "Boss of Bosses" appellation appeared in a paid advertisement during the course of a heated political campaign in which both sides engaged in mudslinging. We conclude that a reader of ordinary intelligence would not believe that Senator Lynch was the head of the leading crime family in New York. See Mob Speak Glossary in 1 Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang 29, 29-30 (J.E. Lighter ed., 1994) ("While no one proclaims himself the Boss of Bosses anymore, the press awards this title to whomever they feel is the boss of the strongest of the five Families of New York, who is also said to preside over Commission meetings."). Rather, the reader would understand the statement to be hyperbole and name-calling emanating from a rough-and-tumble political campaign.>>

        The citing case is Lynch v. New Jersey Education Association, 161 N.J. 152, 170 - 71, 735 A.2d 1129, 1138 - 39 (N.J. July 27, 1999).

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Jesse Sheidlower
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:51 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?


On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 03:45:58PM -0500, Baker, John wrote:
>
>         Jon's been cited before, for (in chronological
> order) "goombah," "Boss of Bosses," "jack," "cap," "blood,"
> "jack-off," "bull," "no-show," and, in the Knievel case,
> "kick it," "hardcore," and "hottie."  If Jon or anyone else
> needs copies or cites, let me know, on-list or off-list as
> appropriate.

Since "Boss of Bosses" (and, for that matter, "capo di tutti
capi") does not appear in HDAS, I'm curious to know how Jon
was cited for this. Was HDAS cited to show its lack of entry
for this term?

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Feb  2 21:41:00 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:41:00 -0500
Subject: my mistake: garbage can (1906) not garbage pail
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.164100.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thus far, garbage pail (1885) is far older than garbage can:

Put away the milk at once when it is served [delivered?].  In five
minutes, an authority says, milk that is left uncovered and standing near
any drain or on the bricks by a garbage pail will imbibe enough impurities
to make it spoiled for baby's use.
_The Standard_ [Albert Lea, Minn.] (NewspaperArchive.com), Aug. 12, 1885,
p 2

garbage wagon (1882):

The city garbage wagon has been discontinued, and hereafter those who have
been benefited by it will have to provide for themselves.
_Davenport [Iowa] Daily Gazette_ (NewspaperArchive.com), Nov. 16, 1882, p 7

Barnhart on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 at 3:21 PM -0500 wrote:
>American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Wednesday, February
>02, 2005 at 3:19 PM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
>Subject:      Re: disposable garbage bags
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I recall municipal garbage collectors (1924) (aka garbagemen [1888]) using
>large sheets of burlap upon which to dump garbage from galvanized garbage
>pails (1906) (which I can remember cleaning) and their hefting them over
>their should to schlep to the garbage truck (1916).  I don't remember ever
>hearing the term garbage box (1867).
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>barnhart at highlands.com
>
>American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Wednesday, February
>02, 2005 at 1:24 PM -0500 wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
>>Subject:      Re: disposable garbage bags
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I can't remember when these things first became a standard element of
>the
>>No. American lifestyle, but I clearly remember the feeling of shock --
>>outrage, really -- when I noticed that it was expected that people would
>>buy bags for the purpose of throwing them away.
>>Ah, such innocence!
>>A. Murie
>


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Wed Feb  2 21:41:56 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:41:56 -0800
Subject: No Capital Letters in Canadian's Last Name
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.134156.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One more item to remember when spelling people's names...BB

> -----Original Message-----

> Globe and Mail, Canada, February 2, 2005
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC
> /20050202/COLUMBUS02/TPNational/TopStories
> The Knights and the lesbians: Exhibit A in same-sex uproar By
> MICHAEL VALPY

<snip>

> Ms. findlay, who does not use capital letters in the spelling
> of her name, said the religious freedom of the Roman Catholic
> Church to refuse to marry same-sex couples could not be
> equated to religious freedom for a lay organization of
> Catholics to refuse to rent premises for the celebration of a
> same-sex marriage
> -- not if the premises were generally offered to the public.

<snip>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Feb  2 21:50:29 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:50:29 -0500
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.165029.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Bear in mind that these are different areas of the law.  The Knievel case was about the law of defamation (slander/libel).  The hypothetical case against your school district would be based instead on the student's right to be free of arbitrary and capricious governmental process or on the student's right to free speech.

        The free speech claim isn't going to get far if the student was insulting another student at school, whether the student meant nerd or penis, so the student would have to proceed on the arbitrary governmental process theory.  Assuming that your school district's rules are clearly set out somewhere (e.g., what you describe would not be sexual harassment in the legal sense even if everyone understood "dork" to mean a penis, but the school certainly could proscribe that), then the student would essentially have to show that the school district's policy, as applied, was so unreasonable as to be unsustainable.  For example, if a teacher overheard a student call another one a nerd and the student were suspended because the teacher erroneously understood a nerd to be a penis, then the student might have a claim.

        This is not legal advice.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of FRITZ JUENGLING
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 4:21 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?


This is an interesting verdict. In our school district, guilt is determined by the hearer's perception (maybe not even the one to whom a comment is directed), not the intent of speaker.  So, "You're a dork!" is sexual harassment if anyone in earshot understands 'dork' to mean the male member.  Showing another definition, such as "fool, nerd, etc." in a dictionary is no defense. My question is whether a kid can take the school district to court after having been punished for sexual harrassment after saying "you're a dork', using the -I-meant-nerd-not-male-member-and-here-it, ie.nerd,-is-in- the-dictionary-defense.  Would our school district have to change its policy?
Fritz


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb  2 21:52:49 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:52:49 -0600
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.155249.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Also, for the purposes of discussing the hypothetical situation below,
Knievel is a public figure.  Therefore the standard for libel/slander is

much higher than that for a student.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Baker, John
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:50 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
>         Bear in mind that these are different areas of the
> law.  The Knievel case was about the law of defamation
> (slander/libel).  The hypothetical case against your school
> district would be based instead on the student's right to be
> free of arbitrary and capricious governmental process or on
> the student's right to free speech.
>
>         The free speech claim isn't going to get far if the
> student was insulting another student at school, whether the
> student meant nerd or penis, so the student would have to
> proceed on the arbitrary governmental process theory.
> Assuming that your school district's rules are clearly set
> out somewhere (e.g., what you describe would not be sexual
> harassment in the legal sense even if everyone understood
> "dork" to mean a penis, but the school certainly could
> proscribe that), then the student would essentially have to
> show that the school district's policy, as applied, was so
> unreasonable as to be unsustainable.  For example, if a
> teacher overheard a student call another one a nerd and the
> student were suspended because the teacher erroneously
> understood a nerd to be a penis, then the student might have a claim.
>
>         This is not legal advice.
>
> John Baker
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of FRITZ JUENGLING
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 4:21 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
>
>
> This is an interesting verdict. In our school district, guilt
> is determined by the hearer's perception (maybe not even the
> one to whom a comment is directed), not the intent of
> speaker.  So, "You're a dork!" is sexual harassment if anyone
> in earshot understands 'dork' to mean the male member.
> Showing another definition, such as "fool, nerd, etc." in a
> dictionary is no defense. My question is whether a kid can
> take the school district to court after having been punished
> for sexual harrassment after saying "you're a dork', using
> the -I-meant-nerd-not-male-member-and-here-it,
> ie.nerd,-is-in- the-dictionary-defense.  Would our school
> district have to change its policy?
> Fritz
>


From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Wed Feb  2 22:02:55 2005
From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:02:55 -0000
Subject: "Grass Roots"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502021619350.7256-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.220255.0000.>

> Michael Quinion, I believe, asked about this recently.  I searched
> ProQuest Historical Newspapers/American Periodical Series, and the
> hits there seem to start in July 1912, the same month as the OED's
> first use. It does seem that the term started then in connection with
> the Roosevelt "Bull Moose" candidacy for president.

Many thanks for the follow-up on this. One on newspaperarchive.com is
slightly earlier, though also linked to that Roosevelt campaign:

1912 Evening News (Ada, Oklahoma) 26 Jan. 4/5 "The Roosevelt
Sentiment, as cropping out at Coalgate, was but the forerunner, as it
was plain to him, he said, that the grass roots were for the ex-
president".

It seems likely that somebody connected to the campaign coined it,
probably from the existing expression "gold from the grass roots
down" for a rich gold strike.

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <wordseditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb  2 22:20:10 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:20:10 -0600
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.162010.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Add to the list:

bork
 44 UCLA L. Rev. 1185 (1996-1997) p. 1185. AND
 50 Drake L. Rev. 360 (2001-2002) Symposium Precis, A; Baker, Thomas E.


coffin nails
 38 Wm. & Mary L. Rev. 610 (1996-1997) Of Deaths Put on by Cunning and
Forced Cause: Reality Bites the Tobacco Industry; LeBel, Paul A.

horse (v), horseplay
 25 Cardozo L. Rev. 2203 (2004) TAKING ANOTHER RIDE ON FLOPPER: BENJAMIN
CARDOZO, SAFE SPACE, AND THE CULTURAL SIGNIFICANCE OF CONEY ISLAND
Robert N. Strassfeld

john
 4 Buff. Crim. L. Rev. 715 (2000-2001) Teaching Prostitution Seriously;
Balos, Beverly  AND
 74 N.Y.U. L. Rev. 1222 (1999) Matter of Prostitution: Becoming
Respectable, A; Balos, Beverly; Fellows, Mary Louise

nigger and related terms
 2001 U. Ill. L. Rev. 936 (2001) David C. Baum Lecture: Nigger as a
Problem in the Law, The; Kennedy, Randall L.




>         Jon's been cited before, for (in chronological order)
> "goombah," "Boss of Bosses," "jack," "cap," "blood,"
> "jack-off," "bull," "no-show," and, in the Knievel case,
> "kick it," "hardcore," and "hottie."
>
>


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Feb  2 22:21:53 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 14:21:53 -0800
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.142153.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My question really is about the student who does intend to call someone 'penis' because nearly everyone uses 'dork' to mean 'nerd' or he does not know that there is another meaning to 'dork.'

>>> JMB at STRADLEY.COM 02/02/05 01:50PM >>>
        Bear in mind that these are different areas of the law.  The Knievel case was about the law of defamation (slander/libel).  The hypothetical case against your school district would be based instead on the student's right to be free of arbitrary and capricious governmental process or on the student's right to free speech.

        The free speech claim isn't going to get far if the student was insulting another student at school, whether the student meant nerd or penis, so the student would have to proceed on the arbitrary governmental process theory.  Assuming that your school district's rules are clearly set out somewhere (e.g., what you describe would not be sexual harassment in the legal sense even if everyone understood "dork" to mean a penis, but the school certainly could proscribe that), then the student would essentially have to show that the school district's policy, as applied, was so unreasonable as to be unsustainable.  For example, if a teacher overheard a student call another one a nerd and the student were suspended because the teacher erroneously understood a nerd to be a penis, then the student might have a claim.

        This is not legal advice.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of FRITZ JUENGLING
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 4:21 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?


This is an interesting verdict. In our school district, guilt is determined by the hearer's perception (maybe not even the one to whom a comment is directed), not the intent of speaker.  So, "You're a dork!" is sexual harassment if anyone in earshot understands 'dork' to mean the male member.  Showing another definition, such as "fool, nerd, etc." in a dictionary is no defense. My question is whether a kid can take the school district to court after having been punished for sexual harrassment after saying "you're a dork', using the -I-meant-nerd-not-male-member-and-here-it, ie.nerd,-is-in- the-dictionary-defense.  Would our school district have to change its policy?
Fritz


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Feb  2 22:35:16 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:35:16 -0500
Subject: California vowels
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.173516.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A follow-up to my "okay" query:
Today a grad student responded to something I said with [ok@]--with fairly
balanced stress on the two syllables in this case.  It might have even been
closer to [oka].  But he's from Cleveland!  Which makes me wonder if this
is a kind of "underground" young persons' adoption, spread from
wherever?  He's 24-ish, very hip, etc.  Has anyone else heard this?

------------------------
Here's a question:  I saw "Sideways" yesterday (so-so...) and noticed that
the buddy character played by Haden Church (or Church Haden?) said for Okay
[ok@] or possibly [okE].  Is this backing or laxing common in California
speech?  The presentation on Southern CA speech at ADS noted lowered and
backed /ae/ and /E/, but not this /e/ --> /E/ or /@/.  Might /e/ have gone
to /E/ first and then to /@/?  The guy also had fronted /o/ but I didn't
hear fronted /u/, though I may have missed it; the ADS speaker claimed
u-fronting is more common but admitted this is disputed.

These guys are supposed to be in San Diego, maybe LA, but only Church
seemed "native."  Any comments?


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Feb  2 22:29:01 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:29:01 -0500
Subject: "withdrawl" = withdraw
In-Reply-To: <p04320404be26a4671821@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.172901.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Cute.  Seriously, though--I have in fact heard a final dark /l/ on "draw"
many times (without linking to a vowel; the same occurs with "mamaw," a
regional word for grandmother).  And, in contrast, I've seen in student
writing the spelling "draw" meaning "drawl," as in "He speaks with a
draw"--where the dark /l/ is vocalized in speech and transported into
spelling as absent.  Both processes are common here in SE/Appalachian Ohio.

So I'm still suspicious about the origin of "withdrawal" as a verb.  It
seems to me it could have been generalized/reanalyzed on the basis of
pronunciation.

At 10:41 AM 2/2/2005, you wrote:
>At 7:08 AM -0800 2/2/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>  >From a customer review at Amazon.com:
>>
>>"In 1954, the French had to withdrawl and the Genevea accords were
>>signed. This called for Ho Chi Minh and his group to withdrawl to
>>the North of the country and the French puppet Bao Dai's government
>>to be in control of the South."
>Yes, and the Vietnam analogy is apropos, since the term goes back to
>our own Civil War/War Between the States/War of Northern Aggression,
>when Yankee soldiers noticed the funny way the Rebels spoke--"with
>drawl"--as they were retreating under heavy fire from outposts
>previously held.
>
>Larry


From slangman at PACBELL.NET  Thu Feb  3 00:16:16 2005
From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:16:16 -0800
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.161616.0800.>

Although not mentioned in the Ninth Circuit's decision, Connie Eble and
I both were retained by ESPN as expert witnesses and prepared reports
discussing at length the modern use of the term 'pimp' as being
something other than a procurer of prostitutes.

Tom Dalzell



Mullins, Bill wrote:

>>>From the Sports Law Blog
>http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2005/01/not-defamatory-evel-famous-darede
>vil.html
>
>
>"Famous daredevil Evel Knievel had his lawsuit against ESPN thrown out
>by a federal appeals court yesterday. Knievel and his wife had sued ESPN
>for defamation stemming from a caption to a picture posted on its
>website (which has since been taken down). The picture, of Knievel and
>his wife, had a caption that read: "Evel Knievel proves that you're
>never too old to be a pimp."
>
>This is of interest because the decision centered on the various slang
>meanings of the word "pimp".  The court, whose decision is linked in the
>above blog entry, determined that in this case, a non-literal meaning
>should be inferred, based on the context and appearance of many other
>slang terms; therefore it was not reasonable to assume or infer (as,
>apparently Knievel and/or his attorneys did) that ESPN was saying that
>Evel Knievel was in fact a pimp, and had turned out his wife.
>
>The decision cites Lighter's HDAS.  Jon is now a part of legal history
>(and may have been for some time, for all I know).
>
>
>


From pds at VISI.COM  Thu Feb  3 00:35:36 2005
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:35:36 -0600
Subject: Burma-Shave
In-Reply-To: <20050202130408.1D5B252C5@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.183536.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2/2/2005 08:04 AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>Is anyone able to suggest to me the one or two most famous Burma-Shave
>jingles?

Who knows from most famous?  My favorite

Ben met Anna
Made a hit
Neglected beard
Ben Anna split
Burma Shave

My dad, Frank's, favorite

He lit a match
To check the gas tank
That's why they call him
Skinless Frank
Burma Shave


   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
           http://www.visi.com/~pds


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 01:51:02 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:51:02 -0800
Subject: my mistake: garbage can (1906) not garbage pail
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.175102.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My 1880s vintage grandparents always used "garbage pail." I use "trash can" or "garbage can."

JL



Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Barnhart
Subject: Re: my mistake: garbage can (1906) not garbage pail
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thus far, garbage pail (1885) is far older than garbage can:

Put away the milk at once when it is served [delivered?]. In five
minutes, an authority says, milk that is left uncovered and standing near
any drain or on the bricks by a garbage pail will imbibe enough impurities
to make it spoiled for baby's use.
_The Standard_ [Albert Lea, Minn.] (NewspaperArchive.com), Aug. 12, 1885,
p 2

garbage wagon (1882):

The city garbage wagon has been discontinued, and hereafter those who have
been benefited by it will have to provide for themselves.
_Davenport [Iowa] Daily Gazette_ (NewspaperArchive.com), Nov. 16, 1882, p 7

Barnhart on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 at 3:21 PM -0500 wrote:
>American Dialect Society on Wednesday, February
>02, 2005 at 3:19 PM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Barnhart
>Subject: Re: disposable garbage bags
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I recall municipal garbage collectors (1924) (aka garbagemen [1888]) using
>large sheets of burlap upon which to dump garbage from galvanized garbage
>pails (1906) (which I can remember cleaning) and their hefting them over
>their should to schlep to the garbage truck (1916). I don't remember ever
>hearing the term garbage box (1867).
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>barnhart at highlands.com
>
>American Dialect Society on Wednesday, February
>02, 2005 at 1:24 PM -0500 wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: sagehen
>>Subject: Re: disposable garbage bags
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I can't remember when these things first became a standard element of
>the
>>No. American lifestyle, but I clearly remember the feeling of shock --
>>outrage, really -- when I noticed that it was expected that people would
>>buy bags for the purpose of throwing them away.
>>Ah, such innocence!
>>A. Murie
>

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 01:52:20 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:52:20 -0800
Subject: No Capital Letters in Canadian's Last Name
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.175220.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is e. e. cummings and bell hooks, who go one step farther.

JL

Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Barrett
Subject: No Capital Letters in Canadian's Last Name
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One more item to remember when spelling people's names...BB

> -----Original Message-----

> Globe and Mail, Canada, February 2, 2005
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC
> /20050202/COLUMBUS02/TPNational/TopStories
> The Knights and the lesbians: Exhibit A in same-sex uproar By
> MICHAEL VALPY



> Ms. findlay, who does not use capital letters in the spelling
> of her name, said the religious freedom of the Roman Catholic
> Church to refuse to marry same-sex couples could not be
> equated to religious freedom for a lay organization of
> Catholics to refuse to rent premises for the celebration of a
> same-sex marriage
> -- not if the premises were generally offered to the public.




---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 01:53:26 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:53:26 -0800
Subject: No Capital Letters in Canadian's Last Name
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.175326.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"There are" is correct.

JL

Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Jonathan Lighter
Subject: Re: No Capital Letters in Canadian's Last Name
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is e. e. cummings and bell hooks, who go one step farther.

JL

Benjamin Barrett wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Barrett
Subject: No Capital Letters in Canadian's Last Name
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One more item to remember when spelling people's names...BB

> -----Original Message-----

> Globe and Mail, Canada, February 2, 2005
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC
> /20050202/COLUMBUS02/TPNational/TopStories
> The Knights and the lesbians: Exhibit A in same-sex uproar By
> MICHAEL VALPY



> Ms. findlay, who does not use capital letters in the spelling
> of her name, said the religious freedom of the Roman Catholic
> Church to refuse to marry same-sex couples could not be
> equated to religious freedom for a lay organization of
> Catholics to refuse to rent premises for the celebration of a
> same-sex marriage
> -- not if the premises were generally offered to the public.




---------------------------------
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 Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.


From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Thu Feb  3 02:24:40 2005
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 21:24:40 -0500
Subject: my mistake: garbage can (1906) not garbage pail
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.212440.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM> wrote:
>Thus far, garbage pail (1885) is far older than garbage can:
>
>Put away the milk at once when it is served [delivered?]. In five
>minutes, an authority says, milk that is left uncovered and standing near
>any drain or on the bricks by a garbage pail will imbibe enough impurities
>to make it spoiled for baby's use.
>_The Standard_ [Albert Lea, Minn.] (NewspaperArchive.com), Aug. 12, 1885,
>p 2
>
>garbage wagon (1882):
>
>The city garbage wagon has been discontinued, and hereafter those who have
>been benefited by it will have to provide for themselves.
>_Davenport [Iowa] Daily Gazette_ (NewspaperArchive.com), Nov. 16, 1882, p 7
>

I remember that some US cities had in-ground receptacles for garbage pails,
which were set in sidewalks (e.g. 'on the bricks' etc.) and had
foot-operated covers.  Home food garbage (not trash) was set in pails in
these containers, and emptied by the city garbage collectors on a schedule.
I assume the garbage was fed to pigs in some places...
This system was used in my father's hometown, Lynn, MA, into the 1960s, I
believe.

Michael McKernan


From dave at WILTON.NET  Thu Feb  3 02:49:04 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:49:04 -0800
Subject: Airborne as verb
In-Reply-To: <20050203015326.93861.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.184904.0800.>

>From an AP story on 2 Feb 2005, "Plane Skids Off Runway, Crashes in N.J." by
WAYNE PARRY:

"'He said as they tried to airborne before five minutes past (7 a.m.), they
just lost control and they couldn't airborne the plane. They went straight
through, 100 miles per hour,' [Witness Robert] Sosa said."

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Thu Feb  3 02:50:26 2005
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 20:50:26 -0600
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.205026.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Central Illinois, mid 50s

(to the tune of Battle Hymn of the Republic)


Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord
He was coming round the corner in a 1918 Ford.
He had one hand on the throttle and the other on a bottle
Of Pabst Blue Ribbon

Glory Glory what's it to ya
Teacher hit me with a ruler
I hit her in the bean with a rotten tangerine
As we go marching on

Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb  3 04:01:45 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:01:45 -0500
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
In-Reply-To: <E1CwR7Q-0005ym-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.230145.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 2, 2005, at 3:28 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject:      Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> From the Sports Law Blog
> http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2005/01/not-defamatory-evel-famous-
> darede
> vil.html
>
>
> "Famous daredevil Evel Knievel had his lawsuit against ESPN thrown out
> by a federal appeals court yesterday. Knievel and his wife had sued
> ESPN
> for defamation stemming from a caption to a picture posted on its
> website (which has since been taken down). The picture, of Knievel and
> his wife, had a caption that read: "Evel Knievel proves that you're
> never too old to be a pimp."
>
> This is of interest because the decision centered on the various slang
> meanings of the word

> ... the various slang meanings of the word "pimp"

FWIW, as I found out while chatting with my 15yo niece, for a lot of
today's younger people, "pimp" has only slang meanings and no literal
meaning. My niece was shocked! shocked! when I explained that literal
meaning to her. I wasn't shocked, but I was taken somewhat aback that
she had not the least idea of the primary meaning of "pimp."

  Back in my day, of course, as far as I can recall, the only slang term
was "pimpmobile" and I coined that one myself. Yes, really! I wouldn't
be surprised to discover that many others have also coined this term,
independently of me. But I really am the first person that I know of to
use this term. It was in May of 1963.

-Wilson Gray

> .  The court, whose decision is linked in the
> above blog entry, determined that in this case, a non-literal meaning
> should be inferred, based on the context and appearance of many other
> slang terms; therefore it was not reasonable to assume or infer (as,
> apparently Knievel and/or his attorneys did) that ESPN was saying that
> Evel Knievel was in fact a pimp, and had turned out his wife.
>
> The decision cites Lighter's HDAS.  Jon is now a part of legal history
> (and may have been for some time, for all I know).
>


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Thu Feb  3 04:01:53 2005
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:01:53 -0600
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.220153.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

2nd try to get it right.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hause" <dwhause at JOBE.NET>

Central Illinois, mid 50s

(to the tune of Battle Hymn of the Republic)


Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord
He was coming round the corner in a 1918 Ford.
He had one hand on the throttle and the other on a bottle
Of Pabst Blue Ribbon Beer

Glory Glory what's it to ya
Teacher hit me with a ruler
I hit her in the bean with a rotten tangerine
As we go marching on

Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb  3 04:27:04 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:27:04 -0500
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$7484n0@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.232704.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I was a teenager in the 'Fifties in St. Louis,
"dittybop(p)er"/diddybop(per)" was a fairly mild insult that meant
something like "wannabe hipster." There was no verb form.

Unfortunately, when I was in The War, I didn't have occasion to come
into contact with any Morse-code operators. More useless information:
when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it sounds like Morse code to
the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the equipment available in the
late '50's.

-Wilson Gray


On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Have discovered that besides their tedious old meanings, so familiar
> that I needn't bore you with them, these words have been used in the
> military with the senses "high-speed Morse operator" and "high-speed
> Morse receiver/transmitter."  To "dittybop" also means "to transmit
> Morse code at high speed."
>
> Can any of my distinguished colleagues and consultants add anything to
> the above from personal experience ?
>
> JL
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb  3 04:59:12 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:59:12 -0500
Subject: Cuckoo's nest; "Monkey, Monkey,
 bottle of beer" (1892); "Sin to steal a pin" (1840, 1857)
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.235912.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quickly, before NYU closes at midnight.
 �  �
 �  �
THE VILLAGE FLORIST.
MRS. HOFLAND. Parley's Magazine (1833-1844). New York: Oct 1840. Vol. 8; p. 306 (9 pages)
Pg. 310:
...and it so happened that I sung what I learnt that morning--
"It is a sin to steal a pin,
Much more to steal a greater thing."
 �
 �
Article 1 -- No Title
The Genesee Farmer (1845-1865). Rochester: Sep 1856. Vol. 17, Iss. 9; p. 291 (2 pages)
First page:
"It is a sin to steal a pin," &c.
 �  �
 �
THINGS WISE AND OTHERWISE. �  � Harper's Weekly , 12/5/1857
Old Gent.
Volume: 1857 �  Issue: 12/05 �  Page Range: 0782d-0783a
THE CLOCK.

A mechanic his labor will often discard,
If the rate of his pay he dislikes;
But a clock—and its case is uncommonly hard—
Will continue to work though it strikes.
Old Mrs. Darnley is a pattern of household economy.
She says she has made a pair of socks last fifteen years
by only knitting new feet to them every winter and new
legs to them every other winter.A political paper, speaking of an opponent, says: “Our
quondam friend reminds us of the valorous chap in the
war of 1812, who mistook a heavy wind for the approach
of the British, as he lay in bed one night. Shaking with
the fear of imaginary danger, he woke his wife, and ex-
claimed, `Snug up to my back, Betsy! let's meet the in-
imy manfully!'”The world is for the working hour; but home is the
place of refuge. We come to it when we are weary or
weak; our refreshment is there, our rest is there, we re-
flect there, we recover from sickness there, and when we
die in peace, we die there.Campbell, the poet, when speaking of the spring, says:
“The Queen of the spring, as she passed down the vale,
Left her robe on the trees, and her breath on the gale.”In a log school-house in Wiscousin, placed conspicu-
ously upon the wall, may be seen the following poetic
version of the eighth commandment:
“It is a sin to steal a pin—
It is a greater to steal a tater.”
 �
 �  �
THE WORLD OF ART: Paintings and Prints in Summer Exhibitions
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 22, 1923. p. BR16 (2 pages)
Second page:
You yourself are moved to incantation, the ancient chant of the nursery game--played upon small interested minors(Recheck--ed.): "Here is the Church and here is the Steeple: Open the Door an see all the People."
 �  �
 �
 �  Anaconda Standard � Sunday, February 23, 1902 Anaconda, Montana �  �
...shall I settle on? MONKEY, MONKEY, a BOTTLE OF BEER. How many nice ones are.....OF the strength OF their position AND OF much OF -their product, are above..
 �  �  �
 �
DECIDEDLY CLEVER.; A Parrot That Could Speak Two Hundred Words.
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 11, 1892. p. 6 (1 page):
Here are some of the things thatthe bird said which the reporter had time ti catch: "Monkey, monkey, bottle of beer, how many monkeys are there here?"...
 �
 �
Playground Democracy.; Comnaner
Current Literature (1888-1912). New York: Oct 1901. Vol. VOL. XXXI.,, Iss. No. 4; p. 432 (2 pages)
Seonc page:
Wire, briar, limber, lock,'Three geese in a flock;
One flew east, one flew west,
One flew over the cuckoo's nest.
(...)
Monkey, monkey, bottle of beer,
How many monkeys have we here?
One, two three,
Out goes he.


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Thu Feb  3 05:37:18 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:37:18 -0600
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.233718.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sports radio host Jim Rome bills himself as the 
"pimp-in-the-box".  MTV verbs "pimp" in the show
titled "Pimp my Ride" (in other words, "trick out 
my car").



-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray
Sent: Wed 2/2/2005 10:01 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
 

FWIW, as I found out while chatting with my 15yo niece, for a lot of
today's younger people, "pimp" has only slang meanings and no literal
meaning. My niece was shocked! shocked! when I explained that literal
meaning to her. 


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Thu Feb  3 05:54:24 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:54:24 -0600
Subject: "Have  XXX Will Travel"
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.235424.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The science fiction author Robert Heinlein had a novel
titled "Have Spacesuit Will Travel".  A recent commentary
on his works (Robert A. Heinlein, A Reader's Companion by
James Gifford, Nitrosyncretic Press) points out that it
almost certainly was derived from the TV show "Have Gun
Will Travel" (which I knew), but that an earlier version
was the vaudeville phrase, "Have Tux, Will Travel" (which 
I didn't know).

My PQ Historical Newspapers search on this phrase yielded
1951 for a first cite, which sure seems late for a "vaudeville"
phrase.

>From www.etymonline.com :
"Phrase have (noun), will (verb) is from 1954, originally 
from comedian Bob Hope, in the form Have tux, will travel; 
Hope described it as typical of vaudevillians' ads in 
"Variety," indicating a willingness to perform anywhere, any time."
Hope wrote a book titled "Have Tux, Will Travel"

Is the root of this phrase, "have (noun) will (verb)" older than
the 1950's??


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb  3 07:28:42 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 02:28:42 -0500
Subject: Nothing to declare; Rotten tangerine (1959); Taste & Try (1882);
 Bread & Butter (1886)
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.022842.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NOTHING TO DECLARE

OSCAR WILDE DISCOVERS AMERICA (1882)
by Lloyd Lewis and Henry Justin SMith
New York: Harcourt Brace and COmpany
1936

Pg. 31, Book Two, Chapter One, "NOTHING TO DECLARE BUT MY GENIUS"

Pg. 35: The sip at length was at the dock. Wilde and Morse came to the customs' inspector, behind whom massed a crowd watching Oscar. "It appears," wrote he to Sarah Bernhardt a little later, "that some of the numerous imaginative ones who are at work to make me famous had spread the story that I slept in gorgeous lace nightgowns."

His luggage was opened. No lace nightgowns appeared.

"Have you anything to declare?" asked the blue-clad inspector.

"Nothing," said Oscar; "nothing but my genius."

("Arrival of Oscar Wilde" in in the New York Tribune, 3 January 1882, pg. 5, col. 4, but I didn't see anything--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------------
EAGLE'S/CUCKOO'S NEST; "BREAD AND BUTTER, COME TO SUPPER"

See the "cuckoo's nest" (1885) in the ADS-L archives. "Monkey, monkey, barrel of beer" (not "bottle of beer") is in the same post.

FOLK-LORE FROM ADAMS COUNTY ILLINOIS has "bread and butter, come to supper" on page 632, and "Hot boiled beans and very good butter, Ladies and gentlemen come to supper" on page 634.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
Parlor Amusements.; THE BLIND MAN'S WAND. MAGIC MUSIC.
Arthur's Home Magazine (1861-1870). Philadelphia: Jul 1862. Vol. 20; p. 60 (1 page):
Hot boil'd beans, and very good butter;
Won't you please to come to supper?

GAMES.; PRISONER'S BARS. THE KANGAROO. HOT BROAD BEANS. FLY AWAY.
Godey's Lady's Book and Magazine (1854-1882). New York: Jul 1880. Vol. 101, Iss. 601; p. 101 (1 page):
HOT BROAD BEANS.

This is a game of hide and seek, wherein one player hides some small thing about the room, the others of course hiding their eyes. When the hider is ready for them to seek it, she calls out: "Hot broad beans and very good butter; ladies and gentlemen, come to supper"--upon which they all begin to search. WHen they are near the place where it is, the hider calls out: "You are getting hot!" If they are far away she say: "You are cold!" The one who finds it take the turn to hide.

"THE LAND OF THE SKY;" OR, ADVENTURES IN MOUNTAIN BY-WAYS.
BY CHRISTIAN REID.. Appletons' Journal of Literature, Science and Art (1869-1876). New York: Sep 25, 1875. Vol. VOL. XIV., Iss. No. 340.; p. 385 (4 pages):
Pg. 387:
"It reminds me of the old nursery game--'One flew east, and one flew west, and one flew over the eagle's nest.'"


CAROLS AND CHILD-LORE AT THE CAPITAL.
W H Babcock. Lippincott's Monthly Magazine (1886-1915). Philadelphia: Sep 1886. Vol. 38; p. 320 (23 pages)
Various pages:

One to the east, one to the west,
One goes to the cuckoo's nest.
(...)
Hot bread and butter,
Please come to supper.
(...)
Star, star that shines so bright,
The first star I've seen to-night.
I hope I wish, I hope I may,
I hope my wish may come true
To-morrow night.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Old Songs and New, Adapted and Made by Aunt Anna
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 23, 1919. p. D10 (1 page):
Bread and butter,
Come to supper?
Oh--dear--no!
That is what
They gave to children
Long--time--ago--


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Ironwood Daily Globe  Wednesday, February 10, 1926 Ironwood, Michigan
...RESULTS SALLY ANN "BREAD AND BUTTER COME TO SUPPER" piled The SUPPER call.....AND rosy. Say TO them every clay "BREAD is your Best Food Eat more o it..

--------------------------------------------------------------
"TASTE AND TRY BEFORE YOU BUY"

"Taste and try before you buy" is in FOLK-LORE FROM ADAMS COUNTY ILLINOIS, pg. 641.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Chester Times  Tuesday, May 02, 1882 Chester, Pennsylvania
...Convention is now in order. TASTE AND TRY, before you BUY. WE desire to give.....corner 01 Tiiird AND Market streets, AND delivered in Chester AND vicinity..

   Chester Times  Thursday, April 12, 1883 Chester, Pennsylvania
...with tho CHESTER TIMKS. TASTE AND TRY, before you BUY. boll -will soon.....the other night, was in such bad TASTE that President Broomali called him..

   Chester Times  Tuesday, June 16, 1885 Chester, Pennsylvania
...next to please the people. TASTE AND TRY before you BUY, by worrying the life.....is the summer book? Ask a bookseller. TRY his skill with his plenteous store..

--------------------------------------------------------------
"...ON THE BEAN WITH A ROTTEN TANGERINE..."

(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Herald  Thursday, February 05, 1959 Chicago, Illinois
...glory TeAcher HIT ME WITH A RULER. I HIT her on the beAn WITH A rcUcn.....ClAsses Older brother HorAce surprises ME by beAting the tiME but then he's..
Pg. ?, col. 2:
"Glory, glory hallelujah!
Teacher hit me with a ruler.
I hit her on the bean
With a rotten tangerine
And we ain't gonna see her no more."

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
YOUNG READERS
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jun 8, 1980. p. PAGE12 (1 page):
_The Silly Song Book, compiled by Charles Keller;...
Remember this variation on the refrain of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"? "Glory, glory how peculiar. Teacher hit me with a ruler, cause I bopped her on the bean with a rotten tangerine, And the juice came running down." Other favorites include "Do Your Ears Hang Low?" and that classic with the lyric, "Be kind to your web-footed friend, for that duck may be somebody's brother," sung to the tune of _Stars and Stripes Forever_.

(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Daily Intelligencer  Monday, November 22, 1982 Doylestown, Pennsylvania
...ruler and In turn being beaned with a ROTTEN TANGERINE. Another bit of..
Pg. 20, col. 3:
Remember that little ditty about "I hate Bosco. Bosco's bad for me. Mommy put it in my milk to try and poison me. I fooled Mommy. I put it in her tea, and now there is no mommy to try and poison me."
(...)
There are other songs in this category equally memorable such as the one sung to the tune of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic," whose lyrics contain reference to a teacher hitting a student with a ruler and in turn being beaned with a rotten tangerine.

--------------------------------------------------------------
HAVE TUX, WILL TRAVEL

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Have tux, will travel;
Bob Hope's own story, as told to Pete Martin.
Author: Hope, Bob, 1903-; Martin, Pete,
Publication: New York, Simon and Schuster, 1954
Document: English : Book

--------------------------------------------------------------
JUDAS PRIEST

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=467712

I previously found "Judas Priest" from the 1880s. This was recently asked on Google Answers (link above), and an old OED citation was provided. The Google Answers people will get $2 for a bad answer. That will probably be two dollars more than I make this entire year.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Saturday Herald  Saturday, November 24, 1883 Decatur, Illinois
...turned away with the laconic remark, "JUDAS PRIEST, how high we No one.....tbe presence of no clergyman or PRIEST, but making an agreement to live..

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
INSPECTING A VIADUCT.; A PARTY OF WILL-KNOWN NEW-YORKERS TAKE A LITTLE PLEASURE TRIP.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 17, 1883. p. 1 (1 page):
"Judas Priest! how high we are!"


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb  3 14:38:47 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 09:38:47 -0500
Subject: "Have  XXX Will Travel"
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1D3DED@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.093847.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:54 PM -0600 2/2/05, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>The science fiction author Robert Heinlein had a novel
>titled "Have Spacesuit Will Travel".  A recent commentary
>on his works (Robert A. Heinlein, A Reader's Companion by
>James Gifford, Nitrosyncretic Press) points out that it
>almost certainly was derived from the TV show "Have Gun
>Will Travel" (which I knew), but that an earlier version
>was the vaudeville phrase, "Have Tux, Will Travel" (which
>I didn't know).
>
>My PQ Historical Newspapers search on this phrase yielded
>1951 for a first cite, which sure seems late for a "vaudeville"
>phrase.
>
>>>From www.etymonline.com :
>"Phrase have (noun), will (verb) is from 1954, originally
>from comedian Bob Hope, in the form Have tux, will travel;
>Hope described it as typical of vaudevillians' ads in
>"Variety," indicating a willingness to perform anywhere, any time."
>Hope wrote a book titled "Have Tux, Will Travel"
>
>Is the root of this phrase, "have (noun) will (verb)" older than
>the 1950's??

I can confirm that for many of those in the relevant generation, it
was indeed Bob Hope's book title in the mid-1950s that introduced us
to the "Have Tux, Will Travel" formula, with precisely the meaning
indicated, and that "Have Gun Will Travel" (still remember "Paladin"
and that chess-knight logo) was recognized as a variation on that
theme.  Only a few years elapsed between the appearance of the Hope
book and the TV show. How long the expression was in circulation in
the vaudeville (or, more generally, show biz) world before Hope used
it for his autobiography I have no idea.

larry


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 14:38:55 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 06:38:55 -0800
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.063855.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Wilson. The military sense must be fairly obscure, since I just discovered it and it seems to go back to the '50s among Morse operators.  Pretty expressive, though.

As for "pimpmobile," it seems to have taken a full decade for your creation to have reached the print media.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I was a teenager in the 'Fifties in St. Louis,
"dittybop(p)er"/diddybop(per)" was a fairly mild insult that meant
something like "wannabe hipster." There was no verb form.

Unfortunately, when I was in The War, I didn't have occasion to come
into contact with any Morse-code operators. More useless information:
when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it sounds like Morse code to
the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the equipment available in the
late '50's.

-Wilson Gray


On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Have discovered that besides their tedious old meanings, so familiar
> that I needn't bore you with them, these words have been used in the
> military with the senses "high-speed Morse operator" and "high-speed
> Morse receiver/transmitter." To "dittybop" also means "to transmit
> Morse code at high speed."
>
> Can any of my distinguished colleagues and consultants add anything to
> the above from personal experience ?
>
> JL
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Feb  3 14:42:35 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 09:42:35 -0500
Subject: No Capital Letters in Canadian's Last Name
In-Reply-To: <20050203015220.34409.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.094235.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 2, 2005, at 20:52, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> There is e. e. cummings and bell hooks, who go one step farther.

The folks at Language Log pointed this out recently:

http://www.gvsu.edu/english/cummings/caps.htm

It seems to indicate "E.E. Cummings" was the preferred form.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 14:43:26 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 06:43:26 -0800
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.064326.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Have recently completed editing of "pimp" for HDAS III.  Its current popularity as a term of praise among the nation's youth seems to have begun no later than 1996.

JL

"Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sports radio host Jim Rome bills himself as the=20
"pimp-in-the-box". MTV verbs "pimp" in the show
titled "Pimp my Ride" (in other words, "trick out=20
my car").



-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray
Sent: Wed 2/2/2005 10:01 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
=20

FWIW, as I found out while chatting with my 15yo niece, for a lot of
today's younger people, "pimp" has only slang meanings and no literal
meaning. My niece was shocked! shocked! when I explained that literal
meaning to her.=20


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Thu Feb  3 15:11:53 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 10:11:53 -0500
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.101153.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        There is indirect evidence that its use in the music world is older than that.  The Supersonic Soul Pimps were around no later than 1994, and Pimp Daddy was performing by 1993.  Their decision to use "pimp" in their stage names suggests that they saw it as at least potentially a term of praise.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Jonathan Lighter
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:43 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?


Have recently completed editing of "pimp" for HDAS III.  Its current popularity as a term of praise among the nation's youth seems to have begun no later than 1996.

JL


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Feb  3 15:47:52 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 07:47:52 -0800
Subject: "Have  XXX Will Travel"
In-Reply-To: <p04320401be27e5fa3866@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.074752.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 3, 2005, at 6:38 AM, Larry Horn wrote:

> I can confirm that for many of those in the relevant generation, it
> was indeed Bob Hope's book title in the mid-1950s that introduced us
> to the "Have Tux, Will Travel" formula...

on Language Log on 4/25/04, Mark Liberman noted huge numbers of
versions of this snowclone, but took it back only to tv's Paladin and
not earlier than that to Bob Hope:

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000818.html

> with precisely the meaning
> indicated, and that "Have Gun Will Travel" (still remember "Paladin"
> and that chess-knight logo) was recognized as a variation on that
> theme.  Only a few years elapsed between the appearance of the Hope
> book and the TV show. How long the expression was in circulation in
> the vaudeville (or, more generally, show biz) world before Hope used
> it for his autobiography I have no idea.

arnold


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb  3 16:01:41 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:01:41 -0500
Subject: "Have  XXX Will Travel"
In-Reply-To: <F666CC56-75FA-11D9-B501-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.110141.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:47 AM -0800 2/3/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>On Feb 3, 2005, at 6:38 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
>
>>I can confirm that for many of those in the relevant generation, it
>>was indeed Bob Hope's book title in the mid-1950s that introduced us
>>to the "Have Tux, Will Travel" formula...
>
>on Language Log on 4/25/04, Mark Liberman noted huge numbers of
>versions of this snowclone, but took it back only to tv's Paladin and
>not earlier than that to Bob Hope:
>
>http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000818.html
>

Ah, how quickly we forget.  Granted, Paladin/Richard Boone may have a
worthier icon than Bob Hope (I always preferred HGWT to the more
popular Gunsmoke myself), but the "HTWT" slogan was definitely the
model for the template, even for those of us (like me) who never read
the eponymous autobio.

L


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 16:35:47 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 08:35:47 -0800
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.083547.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, John, but "potentially" is the key word here.  Or they might simply have wanted to be outrageous.  Hundoubtedly their existenec helped promote the word (which is an adj. as well as a noun).

JL

"Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Baker, John"
Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is indirect evidence that its use in the music world is older than that. The Supersonic Soul Pimps were around no later than 1994, and Pimp Daddy was performing by 1993. Their decision to use "pimp" in their stage names suggests that they saw it as at least potentially a term of praise.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Jonathan Lighter
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:43 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?


Have recently completed editing of "pimp" for HDAS III. Its current popularity as a term of praise among the nation's youth seems to have begun no later than 1996.

JL


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 16:39:55 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 08:39:55 -0800
Subject: "Have  XXX Will Travel"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.083955.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Paladin - the Keats-quotin' gunslinger and real popular in his day. Why don't they rerun this series? Too brainy for today's America?

JL

Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: "Have XXX Will Travel"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 7:47 AM -0800 2/3/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>On Feb 3, 2005, at 6:38 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
>
>>I can confirm that for many of those in the relevant generation, it
>>was indeed Bob Hope's book title in the mid-1950s that introduced us
>>to the "Have Tux, Will Travel" formula...
>
>on Language Log on 4/25/04, Mark Liberman noted huge numbers of
>versions of this snowclone, but took it back only to tv's Paladin and
>not earlier than that to Bob Hope:
>
>http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000818.html
>

Ah, how quickly we forget. Granted, Paladin/Richard Boone may have a
worthier icon than Bob Hope (I always preferred HGWT to the more
popular Gunsmoke myself), but the "HTWT" slogan was definitely the
model for the template, even for those of us (like me) who never read
the eponymous autobio.

L


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo!


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 16:37:58 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 08:37:58 -0800
Subject: "Have  XXX Will Travel"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.083758.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Admittedly I  heard this long after 1954, and long after Paladin, but the "vaudeville" version I'm familiar with from the 1970s is "Have Trunk, Will Travel."  Worth checking.

JL

"Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky"
Subject: Re: "Have XXX Will Travel"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 3, 2005, at 6:38 AM, Larry Horn wrote:

> I can confirm that for many of those in the relevant generation, it
> was indeed Bob Hope's book title in the mid-1950s that introduced us
> to the "Have Tux, Will Travel" formula...

on Language Log on 4/25/04, Mark Liberman noted huge numbers of
versions of this snowclone, but took it back only to tv's Paladin and
not earlier than that to Bob Hope:

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000818.html

> with precisely the meaning
> indicated, and that "Have Gun Will Travel" (still remember "Paladin"
> and that chess-knight logo) was recognized as a variation on that
> theme. Only a few years elapsed between the appearance of the Hope
> book and the TV show. How long the expression was in circulation in
> the vaudeville (or, more generally, show biz) world before Hope used
> it for his autobiography I have no idea.

arnold


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Feb  3 17:34:44 2005
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:34:44 EST
Subject: Burma Shave
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.123444.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>  2 books that are to be found in better libraries everywhere:
>  he Verse by the Side of the Road: The Story of the Burma-Shave Signs
>  and Jingles, by Frank Rowsome, Jr., in print from Penguin for $12.95
>  Burma-Shave: The Rhymes, the Signs, the Times, by Bill Vossler, in
>  print from North Star Press of St. Cloud for $14.95

I have the Rowsome book---unfortunately I can't find it at the moment.  It
includes what is claimed to be a list of all Burma Shave jingles.

Two contributions Burma-Shave made to the American language:

"A town so small that it fit between two Burma-Shave signs"  (I heard this
one in the 1959-60 school year, in reference to Versailles, Kentucky (/v at r
'seilz/), the home of the outgoing governor, A. B. "Happy" Chandler (yes, the
one-time baseball commisioner).

A way of expressing your disapproal of a piece of verse that has just been
recited was to add the words "Burma Shave" as soon as the reciter had finished.

         - James A. Landau

Aside to Wilson Gray---have you managed to forget the military meaning of
"heel-clicking"?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb  3 17:55:57 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:55:57 -0500
Subject: Have trunk, will travel (1954); Groundhog Day (1859)
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.125557.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TSUNAMI

In today's newspaper (am-New York), someone from the UN urged people not to forget Africa, which has the "perpetual tsunamis" of war, poverty, and disease. "Tsunami" is already taking on a "holocaust"-like form.

(GOOGLE)
http://www.kempland4u.com/questions-answered-son/2005/1/6/the-developing-worlds-perpetual-tsunami.html

--------------------------------------------------------------
HAVE TRUNK, WILL TRAVEL

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
VIDEO-RADIO BRIEFS; McCarthy Hearings on TV, Radio Schedules
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 24, 1954. p. 26 (1 page):
(Photo caption)
HAVE TRUNK, WILL TRAVEL--Pinky Lee engages in a bit of elephant play with his namesake, Pinky from Moulin Rouge on KNBH (4) at 5 this afternoon.

--------------------------------------------------------------
GROUNDHOG DAY

"ProQuest Phil" didn't see his shadow, so it's eight more weeks of no updates whatsoever.

Every day of my life is Groundhog Day. Lunch is almost over--back to parking tickets.

(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Portsmouth Times  Saturday, February 05, 1870 Portsmouth, Ohio
...reliable. LAST WednesDAY was "GROUND HOG" DAY. The animal saw his shadow and.....contains three and one-half acres of GROUND. The idea of establishing a City..

   Centerville Citizen  Saturday, February 03, 1872 Centerville, Iowa
...at the Method- the 2d was GROUND-HOG DAY. i Our thanks to Hon. E. J.....term of said which will be the 7th DAY of at two o'clock P. M. of saM DAY..

   Coshocton Age  Friday, February 10, 1871 Coshocton, Ohio
...niki lind yourself sin editor. GROUND HOG DAY of last week proniid-iiogduy. If.....ii runs iliiliy. Kleban Kofler "Palace DAY ami Nihill Cars run flirniiifh..

   Coshocton Age  Friday, February 07, 1868 Coshocton, Ohio
...fur i.'ilutivo documents. Last GROUND-HOG DAY kondor if ho his shadow? fice.....rail-road hicctings are tho order ,ho DAY with our neighboring counties von Id..

   Progressive Age  Wednesday, February 09, 1859 Coshocton, Ohio
...There rausl somelhlBg fn "GROUND-HOG DAY'1 aller all. -as everybody.....onr attention to (be Tact that the "GROUND bog" story coincides with a much..


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Feb  3 18:14:37 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:14:37 -0500
Subject: "Have XXX Will Travel"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.131437.0500.>

On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:54:24 -0600, Mullins, Bill
<Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL> wrote:

>The science fiction author Robert Heinlein had a novel
>titled "Have Spacesuit Will Travel".  A recent commentary
>on his works (Robert A. Heinlein, A Reader's Companion by
>James Gifford, Nitrosyncretic Press) points out that it
>almost certainly was derived from the TV show "Have Gun
>Will Travel" (which I knew), but that an earlier version
>was the vaudeville phrase, "Have Tux, Will Travel" (which
>I didn't know).
>
>My PQ Historical Newspapers search on this phrase yielded
>1951 for a first cite, which sure seems late for a "vaudeville"
>phrase.
>
>>From www.etymonline.com :
>"Phrase have (noun), will (verb) is from 1954, originally
>from comedian Bob Hope, in the form Have tux, will travel;
>Hope described it as typical of vaudevillians' ads in
>"Variety," indicating a willingness to perform anywhere, any time."
>Hope wrote a book titled "Have Tux, Will Travel"
>
>Is the root of this phrase, "have (noun) will (verb)" older than
>the 1950's??

Earlier cites are available for "have tuxedo, will travel":

Nebraska State Journal, Jan 7, 1940, p. D7
When Columnist Louella Parsons' unit opened in Washington, D.C. last week,
Milton Berle wired:
"Lots of luck. Louella. Know you will be your charming self. (Signed)
Milton Berle, now appearing "See My Lawyer," $1.10 tops, on the air
Saturday night at 8:30; available for bazaars, confirmations, strawberry
festivals and banquets; special rates for picnic parties; can be reached
at Intervale 6-9432; it's a meat market, but they'll call me. Have tuxedo;
will travel."

Washington Post, Jun 11, 1942, p. 26
Private Julie Oshins of the vaudeville team of Oshins & Lessy now is at
Camp Upton. He filed his application for a role in Irving Berlin's "This
is the Army" revue, and listed his experience and qualifications. At the
end of the long list, the veteran Oshins instinctively added, "Have
tuxedo, will travel."


--Ben Zimmer


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb  3 18:27:07 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:27:07 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Planned Obsolescence"
In-Reply-To: <17CB0DC2.57E704BB.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.132707.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

planned obsolescence (OED 1966)

1932 Bernard London  (title) Ending the depression through planned
obsolescence.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb  3 19:45:50 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:45:50 -0500
Subject: Groundhog Day as cinenym
In-Reply-To: <17CB0DC2.57E704BB.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.144550.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:55 PM -0500 2/3/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>GROUNDHOG DAY
>
>"ProQuest Phil" didn't see his shadow, so it's eight more weeks of
>no updates whatsoever.
>
>Every day of my life is Groundhog Day. Lunch is almost over--back to
>parking tickets.
>

How many other lexical items originated as movie titles that don't
actually refer directly to any  property encoded by that lexical
item?  That is, the interpretation of "Groundhog Day" in e.g. "Every
day of my life is Groundhog Day" or "It's (like) Groundhog Day
(again)" derives by transfer from the fact that the movie in question
is about a Bill-Murray-type figure who must relive the same day over
and over again, or whatever.  Let's say that this particular kind of
semantic transfer or shift results in a cinenym.  (Sorry about that.)
What are other examples?  One I can think of off the cuff is
"Gaslight".   (The less interesting cinenyms are the more transparent
ones, such as "Star Wars" or "Back to the Future"; the more
interesting ones involve aspects of the plot that are not accessible
from the title itself.)

Related question:  when do lexicographers begin to list such
non-compositional lexical items?  I note that AHD4 for Groundhog Day
just has

'February 2, on which according to popular legend the groundhog
emerges from its burrow, prompting the prediction of an early spring
if it does not see its shadow or six more weeks of winter if it does.'

--which doesn't much help for recovering the relevant sense of the
term.  Sim., OED.    But the OED (although not the AHD) does have
_gaslight_ (verb and gerundive noun) as a cinenym based on the 40's
movie:  "to manipulate (a person) by psychological means into
questioning his or her own sanity".  So maybe Groundhog Day will join
it some day, although the odds are against a denominal verb arising
to carry the day.

larry


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Feb  3 20:02:16 2005
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:02:16 EST
Subject: Burma-Shave
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.150216.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:08:24 -0600, Victoria Neufeldt
<vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM> asks:

>  I have been wondering, on reading all these Burma Shave jingles, who
>  wrote them.  Was it a committee?  One bright light in an ad agency?
>  Might this be documented anywhere?

According to Frank Rowsome Jr. _The Verse by the Side of the Road"
Brattleboro GT: Stephen Greene Press, 1965, ISBN 0-8289-0038-8, page 24, the jingles
were originally written by Allen and Clinton Odell, sons of the founder of the
company.  "Yet by the end of the Twenties it was painfully evident that their
muse was growing haggard and scrawny.  After a brief and unpromising dalliance
with staff "jingle artists," Allan turned to the idea of an annual contest,
with $100 paid for each verse accepted."

Most famous?  pp 66, 67 and 117
Within this vale
of toil
and sin
Your head grows bald
But not your chin
Burma Shave

This is the one that the company donated to the Smithsonian.

Checking through Rowsome's list of 600 Burma-Shave jingles (taken from
company records, with a caveat that the records have some lacunae), I find the only
ones I recognize are

Ben met Anna  (quoted previously on ADS-L)

At a quiz
Pa ain't
No Whiz
But He Knows How
To Keep Ma His
Burma Shave

Tempted to try it?
Follow your hunch
Be "Top Banana"
Not one
of the bunch
Burma Shave

    - Jim Landau


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb  3 21:01:55 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:01:55 -0500
Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
In-Reply-To: <200502031601.j13G1QIc018348@pantheon-po07.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.160155.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is anyone willing to search ProQuest Historical Newspapers to see if there
are any pre-1977 hits for "the future ain't what it used to be" or "the
future isn't what it used to be"?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Thu Feb  3 21:07:27 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:07:27 -0600
Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.150727.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thinking Things Over
By VERMONT ROYSTER
Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file); Feb 13, 1974; ProQuest
Historical Newspapers The Wall Street Journal (1889 - 1987)
pg. 16

"There's no doubt about it, the future ain't what it used to be."

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Shapiro
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 3:02 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"

>
> Is anyone willing to search ProQuest Historical Newspapers to
> see if there are any pre-1977 hits for "the future ain't what
> it used to be" or "the future isn't what it used to be"?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Feb  3 21:18:02 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:18:02 -0600
Subject: Big Apple
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.151802.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Such a work is already planned: _Origin of New York City's Nickname "The Big Apple"_, 2nd edition.  (I authored the first edition, 1991, and Barry Popik followed it up with his extraordinary research, particularly on  turf-writer John J. Fitz Gerald. The second edition will be co-authored by Popik and me.) --  Likeliest date of publication: 2006.

Gerald Cohen

> ----------
> From:         American Dialect Society on behalf of sagehen
> Sent:         Wednesday, February 2, 2005 12:10 PM
> To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject:           Big Apple
>
> Isn't it time for someone to do a thesis on the genealogies of all the various accounts of how the Big Apple got its name? Who cited whom & when, and why was that version preferred over another, etc?  It's clear there must be masses of material, even if only publication in periodicals were to be used.
> AM
                                # # #


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Feb  3 21:37:06 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:37:06 -0600
Subject: Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.153706.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yesterday I received an email from sandwich-researcher Becky Mercuri, and below my signoff are some relevant excerpts:

Gerald Cohen

> ----------
> From:         Beckymercuri at aol.com
> Sent:         Wednesday, February 2, 2005 4:30 PM
> To:   Cohen, Gerald Leonard
> Subject:      American Sandwich in Houston Chronicle
>
> Gerald:
>
> Below is an article in today's Houston Chronicle with a nice mention of my book, American Sandwich. Too bad they didn't, once again, mention Barry. I always state how much I rely upon his research. And he did name me "The Sandwich Lady."
>
> Best,
> Becky
>
> HoustonChronicle.com -- http://www.houstonchronicle.com/ | Section: Food
>
> Feb. 1, 2005, 8:02PM
>
>  ARE YOU READY FOR SOME FOOTBALL?
> The Game Plan
> Sandwiches with spirit -- no menu malfunctions here
> By SYD KEARNEY
> Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle
>
[...] The Sandwich Lady is Becky Mercuri, author of American Sandwich: Great Eats From All 50 States (Gibbs Smith, $12.95). And, yes, you can find baked bean sandwiches in Beantown, she says.
>
> But a more appropriate sandwich to honor the reigning Super Bowl champs would be the lobster roll.
>
> "The lobster roll is my absolute favorite sandwich," Mercuri says by phone from her home in New York state.
>
> Mercuri gives my lobster roll and cheese steak menu a thumbs up.
>
> There's nothing more appropriate for Super Bowl feasting than the sandwich, she says.
>
> "Sandwiches are completely all-American. The sandwich is a uniquely American institution as far as popularity and variety. (And it) isn't just for lunch anymore," Mercuri says.
>
> Sunday, Mercuri will serve her party guests two sammies featured in American Sandwich: Pepperoni Rolls, which were popularized in West Virginia, and the Garlic Parmesan Deli Hoagie, which hails from North Carolina. For Pepperoni Rolls, sausage and cheese are baked with the bread dough. Mercuri describes the hoagie as an Atlantic Coast version of New Orleans' muffuletta that spotlights the state's $475-million-a-year turkey industry.
>
> The two sandwiches are perfect for entertaining. "Everything can be prepared in advance, so I'm not stuck in the kitchen while everyone else is enjoying the game," Mercuri says.
>
> In her book, Mercuri traces the history of the sandwich, popularly regarded as the invention of John Montagu (1718-1792), the Fourth Earl of Sandwich. Americans, however, put the sandwich on the culinary map. Two of those Americans have ties to the Super Bowl opponents' hometowns. Philadelphian Eliza Leslie, Mercuri writes, is "apparently the first person to formally introduce the sandwich to America." She did so through Miss Leslie's Directions for Cookery, published in 1837.
>
> The sandwich's versatility wasn't thoroughly examined, however, until Mrs. D.A. Lincoln penned the Boston Cooking School Cook Book in 1884. The cookbook featured a variety of sandwich fillings, including tongue, lobster and "raw beef."
>
> In the spirit of Mrs. Lincoln and with the blessing of the Sandwich Lady, here are some combinations to consider for your Super Bowl-viewing guests.
>   [...]
>
                                # # #


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Feb  3 21:58:12 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:58:12 -0800
Subject: representing reduced auxiliaries orthographically
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.135812.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

in e-mail from a stanford staff member today, about an event i'm unable
to attend:
----
Hi Arnold,

Sorry you can't make it, they'll be more events soon!
-----

as a transcription of speech (for something standing for "there will"),
this is right on.  i myself would say [DEl] (where [D] is a voiced
interdental fricative and [E] a lax mid front vowel).  this rhymes with
"bell" and is homophonous with my usual pronunciation of "they'll"
(standing for "they will").  this is not, however, the standard
spelling (which is "there'll", but that clearly has two syllables in
it, not to mention an [r]).

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Feb  3 22:56:32 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 17:56:32 -0500
Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.175632.0500.>

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:07:27 -0600, Mullins, Bill
<Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL> wrote:

>Thinking Things Over
>By VERMONT ROYSTER
>Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file); Feb 13, 1974; ProQuest
>Historical Newspapers The Wall Street Journal (1889 - 1987)
>pg. 16
>
>"There's no doubt about it, the future ain't what it used to be."

Earlier cites have "is not" or "isn't" instead of "ain't":

Los Angeles Times, Nov 3, 1963, p. M5
Today's generation of collegians is an intense, serious group and they
realize far more than their elders that the "future is not what it used to
be," he [sc. Dr. Abram L. Sacher] said.

Sheboygan Press (Wisc.), Feb 25, 1966, p. 3
A luncheon at Town and Country Club was followed by an address by Dr.
Roderick McPhee, superintendent of schools at Glencoe, Ill. His topic was
"The Future Is Not What It
Used To Be."

Washington Post, Jul 6, 1969, p. G1
Here's a [Stan] Vanderbeek paradox: "The future is not what it used to be."

New York Times, Nov 30, 1969, p. D22
(heading) The Future Is Not What It Used To Be
To some, a legend seen on a lapel button at Cambridge by John Hightower,
executive director of The New York State Council on the Arts, seemed a
perfect expression of the seminar's impact. "The Future Is Not What It
Used To Be," the button stated.

Lima News (Ohio), Sep 13, 1970, p. C
CAMERA THREE. "The Future Isn't What It Used To Be." Confusing is the word
for the title of this program and the confusion surrounding the nature,
perception and appearance of the future is, indeed, its subject. On hand
to attempt some clarification of it all are bonafide experts: R.
Buckminster Fuller, architect, mathematician and city planner; Arthur C.
Clark, science writer and author of "2001;" and Alvin Toffler, author of
the recent blockbuster, "Future Shock." 11 a.m. CBS.


--Ben Zimmer


>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society
>> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Shapiro
>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 3:02 PM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
>
>>
>> Is anyone willing to search ProQuest Historical Newspapers to
>> see if there are any pre-1977 hits for "the future ain't what
>> it used to be" or "the future isn't what it used to be"?
>>
>> Fred Shapiro
>>
>>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 23:22:54 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:22:54 -0800
Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.152254.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about "Nostalgia Ain't What it Used to Be"?   Old movie title.

JL

Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Fred Shapiro
Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is anyone willing to search ProQuest Historical Newspapers to see if there
are any pre-1977 hits for "the future ain't what it used to be" or "the
future isn't what it used to be"?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press,
Yale Law School forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 23:25:12 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:25:12 -0800
Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.152512.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To resond to my<Card entry="0" title="hdas:1.02" sortkey="" url="0" stage="C" type="citecard">
 <Quotation url="0" status="Active">
  <Citation>
   <CiteHeader>
    <Lemma>
    suss out</Lemma>
    <PartOfSpeech>
    v</PartOfSpeech>
    <CiteMetadata>
     "sniff out"
    </CiteMetadata>
   </CiteHeader>
   <Date>
   2005</Date>
<CiteInfo><WorkInfo><WorkTitle>RE: Interesting bits of the Bible</WorkTitle>
                 <WorkLoc weburl="Int.http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=77855&page=3&desc=yes">Int.</WorkLoc>
                 <CalDate>Jan. 30</CalDate>
                 <Location></Location></WorkInfo></CiteInfo>
               </Citation>
               <QuotText> Sussing out that meaning is part of the plan.</QuotText>
 </Quotation>
To reply to my own post yet again, that title is probably "Isn't."

JL

Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Jonathan Lighter
Subject: Re: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How about "Nostalgia Ain't What it Used to Be"? Old movie title.

JL

Fred Shapiro wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Fred Shapiro
Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is anyone willing to search ProQuest Historical Newspapers to see if there
are any pre-1977 hits for "the future ain't what it used to be" or "the
future isn't what it used to be"?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press,
Yale Law School forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Feb  3 23:38:05 2005
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:38:05 EST
Subject: BEI MIR BIST DU SCHON
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.183805.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The following story, forwarded to me by Cantor Ralph Goren of Congregation
Beth El in Margate New Jersey, may be of interest to the ethnic-music historians
on the list:

      They called themselves Johnny and George, and they played the Apollo
Theatre and any other gigs they could get one hot summer in the 1930s. Somewhere
along the way, they managed to get a booking at Grossinger's up in the
Catskills. Not bad. Free meals, you make a few bucks and you're out of New York City
for a little while, beating all that August heat that could blow down the
sidewalks of 125th St. like a blast furnace. One day Jenny Grossinger showed them
the music sheets for this Yiddish song called "Bei Mir Bist du Schon," and
Johnny and George had a little fun with it, with never a clue that what they had
here was going to become one of the biggest hits of their time - but not for
them.
        So summer's over now, and Johnny and George are back down at the
Apollo, and they decide to open with this Grossinger's song. They sing it straight
through in Yiddish, but they kick up the beat and they get it rocking. And
then they get it rocking more. The crowd goes wild. Everybody's dancing. The
Apollo has never heard anything like this. Two black guys singing a swing version
of a Yiddish song? In Yiddish?
        Watching all this from the balcony that night were two up-and-coming
songwriters, Sammy Cahn and Saul Chaplin, and they both knew a sensation when
they heard one. Who owned the rights to this song? they wondered. And what
would they want for them?
        Checking it out, Cahn and Chaplin learned that the lyrics had been
written by one Jacob Jacobs, who, with his music-writing partner Sholom Secunda,
had composed "Bei Mir Bist du Schon" for a Yiddish production called "I Would
If I Could." They'd already tried to sell it to Eddie Cantor, with no luck.
When Cahn offered $30, they were happy to accept. This was nothing unusual for
them. They'd sold hundreds of songs for $30 apiece.
        Cahn and Chaplin went straight to Tommy Dorsey with their new $30
song, urging the bandleader to play it at the Paramount. Dorsey wasn't
interested. Well, it was in Yiddish, he explained.
        So Cahn and Chaplin translated the lyrics into English.
        And then they took the tune to this new group of girl singers. The
Andrews Sisters, they called themselves.
        It happened that the sisters were then recording a Gershwin song
called "Nice Work if You Can Get It," and it was decided that "Bei Mir Bist du
Schon" would work okay as the B side:
            Of all the boys I've known, and I've known some
            Until I first met you, I was lonesome
            And when you came in sight, dear, my heart grew light
            And this old world seemed new to me
             ... And so I've racked my brain, hoping to explain
            All the things that you do to me
            Bei mir bist du schon, please let me explain
             Bei mir bist du schon means you're grand
        The Andrews' record was released a few days after Christmas 1938. By
New Year's Eve it was playing over and over again on every radio station in
New York City.
        It started when "The Milkman's Matinee" on WNEW picked it up and
played it on the all-night show. Soon there were near riots at the record stores.
Crowds would line up and the song would be played out into the street from
loudspeakers. Traffic would back up for blocks. By the end of January, "Bei Mir
Bist du Schon" had sold more than 350,000 copies.
        "Bei Mir Bist du Schon" fever spread across the land. "It's wowing
the country," reported one New Jersey paper. "They're singing it in Camden,
Wilkes-Barre, Hamilton, Ohio, and Kenosha, Wis. The cowboys of the West are
warbling the undulating melody and so are the hillbillies of the South, the
lumberjacks of the Northwest, the fruit packers of California, the salmon canners of
Alaska."
        And it was huge hit in Yorkville: "The Nazi bierstuben patrons yodel
it religiously, under the impression that it's a Goebbels-approved German
chanty."
             I could say Bella Bella, even say Voonderbar
             Each language only helps me tell you how grand you are.
        Over in Germany, Hitler himself was a big fan. Finally, the Third
Reich had a tune, it could hum to.
        At least until it was discovered that the song had been written by
two Jews from Brooklyn.

        Over the years, "Bei Mir Bist du Schon" made millions of dollars for
a lot of singers and record companies. Finally, in 1961, after standing on the
sidelines and watching the royalties ring up over the years for a song that
they'd made 15 bucks each on, Secunda and Jacobs got the rights back.
        As for Johnny and George, who started all the excitement one night at
the Apollo up in Harlem, it goes unrecorded whatever became of them, or even
what their last names were.

        Originally published on November 5, 2004

         Get a load of this from Exodus 19:4
         "Al kanfei nesharim."
         "I have lifted you up on Eagles' wings.."
        GO EAGLES!!


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb  3 23:41:43 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:41:43 -0500
Subject: Burma Shave
In-Reply-To: <E1Cwksg-0003Gy-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.184143.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 3, 2005, at 12:34 PM, James A. Landau wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Burma Shave
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>>  2 books that are to be found in better libraries everywhere:
>>  he Verse by the Side of the Road: The Story of the Burma-Shave Signs
>>  and Jingles, by Frank Rowsome, Jr., in print from Penguin for $12.95
>>  Burma-Shave: The Rhymes, the Signs, the Times, by Bill Vossler, in
>>  print from North Star Press of St. Cloud for $14.95
>
> I have the Rowsome book---unfortunately I can't find it at the moment.
>  It
> includes what is claimed to be a list of all Burma Shave jingles.
>
> Two contributions Burma-Shave made to the American language:
>
> "A town so small that it fit between two Burma-Shave signs"  (I heard
> this
> one in the 1959-60 school year, in reference to Versailles, Kentucky
> (/v at r
> 'seilz/), the home of the outgoing governor, A. B. "Happy" Chandler
> (yes, the
> one-time baseball commisioner).
>
> A way of expressing your disapproal of a piece of verse that has just
> been
> recited was to add the words "Burma Shave" as soon as the reciter had
> finished.
>
>          - James A. Landau
>
> Aside to Wilson Gray---have you managed to forget the military meaning
> of
> "heel-clicking"?
>

I've never heard this term used in a military context, Jim. So, feel
free to explain. But that reminds me. In the WWII anti-German
propaganda of my childhood, the marine-style "jarhead" haircut, the use
of a monocle, and clicking one's heels and bowing one's head when
shaking hands were all considered to be stereotypically German.

During the early '60's, when I was stationed in Germany, young German
males wore what came to be known as the Beatle haircut. (I've always
felt that the Beatles didn't originate this style. Rather, they picked
up on it from German kids during their Hamburg days.) No one that I saw
wore a monocle. But German males, whether younger than I was then or
older than I am now, actually *did* click their heels and bow their
heads when shaking hands. Weird! It always seemed so Nazi. Who'd a
thunk it?

Also, German soldiers in uniform always saluted American soldiers in
uniform, regardless of the G.I.'s rank. I have no idea why they did
that, since they always looked pissed off as hell while doing it. By
contrast, we were told that we were allowed to salute German
*officers,* but only _if we felt like it_. So, of course, we always
saluted German officers while doing our best to avoid saluting our own
officers. Exceptionally, we black G.I.'s went out of our way to salute
black offficers, but only out of race pride, since it was our
experience that assholery was typical of all officers, irrespective of
race, creed, color, religion, or sexual orientation.

-Wilson Gray


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Feb  4 00:51:22 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:51:22 -0500
Subject: gestures and signs
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.195122.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More on gestures...

There is an interesting piece in the New Dictionary of Sacramental Worship
about the sign of the cross, no doubt, one of the earlier "gestures" still
in use about 1800 years later.  Although, we don't know if Adam
"middle-fingered" Eve after giving him the apple, do we?

There was also an interesting piece in the Science Times section of The
New York Times on Tuesday.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Feb  4 00:55:12 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:55:12 -0500
Subject: gestures and signs
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.195512.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

_sign of the cross_ (OED: c1290).  Is there any indication of what
Anglo-Saxons called it?

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb  4 01:21:11 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 20:21:11 -0500
Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.202111.0500.>

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:22:54 -0800, Jonathan Lighter
<wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

>How about "Nostalgia Ain't What it Used to Be"?   Old movie title.


Los Angeles Times, Jul 26, 1964, p. B13
Peter de Vries is the man who said, "Nostalgia isn't what it used to be."



--Ben Zimmer


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb  4 02:20:04 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 21:20:04 -0500
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <E1Cwi8N-0003Lw-00@mx06.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.212004.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:38 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Thanks, Wilson. The military sense must be fairly obscure, since I
> just discovered it and it seems to go back to the '50s among Morse
> operators.  Pretty expressive, though.
>
> As for "pimpmobile," it seems to have taken a full decade for your
> creation to have reached the print media.
>
> JL

You know what gives me the jaws (there's a bit in HDAS about this use
of "jaws"; can't recall at the moment whether it has this particular
version) about "pimpmobile"? There's simply no way to find out whether
I'm really *the* source. It's such an obvious coinage that any number
of other people could have come up with it any number of times. It's
even possible that the first person to use the word in print coined it
independently. Sigh! No 15 minutes of fame for me.

-Wilson


> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> When I was a teenager in the 'Fifties in St. Louis,
> "dittybop(p)er"/diddybop(per)" was a fairly mild insult that meant
> something like "wannabe hipster." There was no verb form.
>
> Unfortunately, when I was in The War, I didn't have occasion to come
> into contact with any Morse-code operators. More useless information:
> when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it sounds like Morse code to
> the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the equipment available in the
> late '50's.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Have discovered that besides their tedious old meanings, so familiar
>> that I needn't bore you with them, these words have been used in the
>> military with the senses "high-speed Morse operator" and "high-speed
>> Morse receiver/transmitter." To "dittybop" also means "to transmit
>> Morse code at high speed."
>>
>> Can any of my distinguished colleagues and consultants add anything to
>> the above from personal experience ?
>>
>> JL
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb  4 02:50:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:50:00 -0800
Subject: "belongingness"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.185000.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Speaking on "Larry King Live" tonight, Dr. Phil McGraw observed that a nurturing family provides children with "a wonderful sense of belongingness."

JL


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 02:56:21 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 21:56:21 EST
Subject: "Have Car, Will Travel" (1929)
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.215621.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's also "Have Suitcase, Will Travel," but that appears to be from  about
1955. This one with "car" makes a lot of sense. It was often used in the
classifieds.
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
_Classified  Ad 21 -- No Title_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=92037497&SrchMode=1&sid=15&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107
485156&clientId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current  file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 18, 1929. p. 52 (1
page)
...
EXECUTIVE, organizer, salesman, 38; fifteen years' experience; large
following; especially salesman; have car; will travel.
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
     _Appleton Post Crescent _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Pf2/SIh9fJOKID/6NLMW2qZQMwvA+r4RRd0RnJZZHKn16pvJDRvJgw==)  Wednesday, April
24, 1929 _Appleton,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:appleton+have+car+and+will+travel+AND)  _Wisconsin_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+have+car+and+will+travel+AND)
...local connection.  WILL TRAVEL. HAVE CAR. Address F.5S
PostCrescent.....cement. Haul, yours out of the CAR, If WILL  pay you. One CAR  extra..


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb  4 03:26:25 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:26:25 -0800
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.192625.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The possibility that Wilson may be the inglorious Milton who coined "pimpmobile" reminds me that back on Oct. 22 I reported two occurrences of the word "scuzzcrack" on CBS's "Joan of Arcadia" that evening, a word which had not appeared on the Net or anywhere else that I was aware of.

Despite its simultaneous reception in millions of American homes, there is still no evidence of wider usage more than 90 days later.

So if Wilson set "pimpmobile" afloat in 1963 without the aid of mass media, we reasonably might not expect it to surface till sometime in the mid 22nd century.

A quick Google check uncovers about one quarter million examples of "pimpmobile" on the Web alone. I am sorry to report, therefore, that any claim in favor of Wilson's unique ownership of this word for copyright, trademark, or servicemark purposes is likely to be staunchly contested.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:38 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Thanks, Wilson. The military sense must be fairly obscure, since I
> just discovered it and it seems to go back to the '50s among Morse
> operators. Pretty expressive, though.
>
> As for "pimpmobile," it seems to have taken a full decade for your
> creation to have reached the print media.
>
> JL

You know what gives me the jaws (there's a bit in HDAS about this use
of "jaws"; can't recall at the moment whether it has this particular
version) about "pimpmobile"? There's simply no way to find out whether
I'm really *the* source. It's such an obvious coinage that any number
of other people could have come up with it any number of times. It's
even possible that the first person to use the word in print coined it
independently. Sigh! No 15 minutes of fame for me.

-Wilson


> Wilson Gray wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> When I was a teenager in the 'Fifties in St. Louis,
> "dittybop(p)er"/diddybop(per)" was a fairly mild insult that meant
> something like "wannabe hipster." There was no verb form.
>
> Unfortunately, when I was in The War, I didn't have occasion to come
> into contact with any Morse-code operators. More useless information:
> when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it sounds like Morse code to
> the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the equipment available in the
> late '50's.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Have discovered that besides their tedious old meanings, so familiar
>> that I needn't bore you with them, these words have been used in the
>> military with the senses "high-speed Morse operator" and "high-speed
>> Morse receiver/transmitter." To "dittybop" also means "to transmit
>> Morse code at high speed."
>>
>> Can any of my distinguished colleagues and consultants add anything to
>> the above from personal experience ?
>>
>> JL
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>




---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb  4 03:49:35 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 22:49:35 -0500
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
In-Reply-To: <E1Cwu72-0001Qd-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.224935.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What is the meaning of "scuzzcrack"? It's not as obvious as that of
"pimpmobile."

-Wilson

On Feb 3, 2005, at 10:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The possibility that Wilson may be the inglorious Milton who coined
> "pimpmobile" reminds me that back on Oct. 22 I reported two
> occurrences of the word "scuzzcrack" on CBS's "Joan of Arcadia" that
> evening, a word which had not appeared on the Net or anywhere else
> that I was aware of.
>
> Despite its simultaneous reception in millions of American homes,
> there is still no evidence of wider usage more than 90 days later.
>
> So if Wilson set "pimpmobile" afloat in 1963 without the aid of mass
> media, we reasonably might not expect it to surface till sometime in
> the mid 22nd century.
>
> A quick Google check uncovers about one quarter million examples of
> "pimpmobile" on the Web alone. I am sorry to report, therefore, that
> any claim in favor of Wilson's unique ownership of this word for
> copyright, trademark, or servicemark purposes is likely to be
> staunchly contested.
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:38 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Thanks, Wilson. The military sense must be fairly obscure, since I
>> just discovered it and it seems to go back to the '50s among Morse
>> operators. Pretty expressive, though.
>>
>> As for "pimpmobile," it seems to have taken a full decade for your
>> creation to have reached the print media.
>>
>> JL
>
> You know what gives me the jaws (there's a bit in HDAS about this use
> of "jaws"; can't recall at the moment whether it has this particular
> version) about "pimpmobile"? There's simply no way to find out whether
> I'm really *the* source. It's such an obvious coinage that any number
> of other people could have come up with it any number of times. It's
> even possible that the first person to use the word in print coined it
> independently. Sigh! No 15 minutes of fame for me.
>
> -Wilson
>
>
>> Wilson Gray wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> When I was a teenager in the 'Fifties in St. Louis,
>> "dittybop(p)er"/diddybop(per)" was a fairly mild insult that meant
>> something like "wannabe hipster." There was no verb form.
>>
>> Unfortunately, when I was in The War, I didn't have occasion to come
>> into contact with any Morse-code operators. More useless information:
>> when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it sounds like Morse code
>> to
>> the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the equipment available in
>> the
>> late '50's.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>>
>> On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>> Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> -
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Have discovered that besides their tedious old meanings, so familiar
>>> that I needn't bore you with them, these words have been used in the
>>> military with the senses "high-speed Morse operator" and "high-speed
>>> Morse receiver/transmitter." To "dittybop" also means "to transmit
>>> Morse code at high speed."
>>>
>>> Can any of my distinguished colleagues and consultants add anything
>>> to
>>> the above from personal experience ?
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
>


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Fri Feb  4 04:06:06 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 22:06:06 -0600
Subject: gestures and signs
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e01ce385c3b9aca0021865145.1ce386d@chain.highlands.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.220606.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>_sign of the cross_ (OED: c1290).  Is there any indication of what
>Anglo-Saxons called it?
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>barnhart at highlands.com

According to _A Thesaurus of Old English_

bletsung, cristelmae:l, cru:c, ha:lig ro:de ta:cen, ro:d, ro:de tq:cen

to 'make the sign of the cross" was

(ge)bletsian, (ge)mercian mid ... ro:de, (ge)segnian

My copy of Clark-Hall _A concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary_ translates
these back into ModEng as

'consecration, blessing, benediction, favor of God'; [=
cri:stesmae:l] 'Christ's mark, the cross'; 'cross', [written
rodetacen] 'holy sign of the cross'; 'sign of the cross'

'consecrate, ordain, bless, give thanks, adore, extol, sign with the
cross, pronounce or make happy'; [= mearcian] 'mark with ... cross',
'to make the sign of the cross, cross oneself, consecrate, bless'

It also gives wyrcan cristesmael for 'to make the sign of the cross'.

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Feb  4 04:12:42 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 23:12:42 -0500
Subject: BEI MIR BIST DU SCHON
In-Reply-To: <156.49f2d1c7.2f340fdd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.231242.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James Landau writes:
.....> Watching all this from the balcony that night were two up-and-coming
songwriters, Sammy Cahn and Saul Chaplin, and they both knew a sensation
when they heard one.....<
~~~~~~~
 Thanks for the account of  the appearance of this song.  I remember its
great popularity very well.  It was quite a while before I learned that it
wasn't  "Buy beer, Mister Shane,"  which was what I thought I was hearing,
whether  sung by the Andrews Sisters or others. Everyone was singing it.
A. Murie

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb  4 04:59:45 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 23:59:45 -0500
Subject: more hash house lingo (1889-1899)
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.235945.0500.>

A search on antedatings for "sunny side up" (OED2 1901) turns up many
vivid descriptions of Bowery hash house slang at the end of the 19th
century.  The articles below supplement the ones already discovered by
Barry Popik:

Brooklyn Eagle, "Restaurant Calls" (1887)
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0302D&L=ads-l&P=R4528

N.Y. Herald, "Very Democratic Hash" (1888)
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0210E&L=ads-l&P=R2751

L.A. Times, "Slang of the Restaurants" (1897)
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0307C&L=ads-l&P=R3588

Atlanta Constitution, "Story of a Queer Cafe in New York" (1899)
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0311A&L=ads-l&P=R4213
http://barrypopik.com/article/161/hash-house-lingo

(The Constitution article attributes the Bowery slang to one Michael
Casey, while the 1895 obituary below gives Frank Ehrler much of the
credit.)

-----
Washington Post, Sep. 15, 1889, p. 9, col. 4
The Bowery has a language all its own, which reaches its most artistic
perfection in the eating houses. Here are some of the terms used by the
waiters: White wings, sunny side up (fried eggs, not turned); a life
preserver (beef stew, so called because that is what a hungry man buys
with his last dime); slaughter in the pan, black one (beefsteak and
coffee); Boston (baked beans).
-----
Middletown Daily Press (N.Y.), Dec. 5, 1890, p. 3, col. 2
Farmer Hayseed (in a ten-cent hash house)--Say, gimme me some roast duck.
Waiter (singing out)--Quack! Farmer Hayseed-—An' some beans! Waiter--Plate
o' Bostons and—- Farmer (hesitatingly)—-And some fried eggs. Waiter--Adam
an' Eve, wid the sunny side up. Farmer (very doubtfully)—-And a glass o'
milk! Waiter—-Drive de cow home! Farmer--And some chick. Waiter—-
Cock-a-doodle-doo! Farmer—-Gee whiz! Lemme out! -—Boston Traveller.
-----
New York Times, Jun 5, 1895, p. 16, col. 4
One of the "Beefsteak Johns" is dead. His name was Frank Ehrler. ...
Frank Ehrler was always a good-natured witty man, and he and his brother
Dominick practically originated the peculiar slang abbreviations for food
now so generally used by the waiters in the chop and eating places.
"Beef stew for a bum, and take the butter off the table," was one of his
original ways of taking an order for a shady customer.
Another was, "A roll and a bowl and beef a la mode for the Markee. Lock up
the butter."
"Sunny side up" was his message to the cook when eggs were ordered fried
on one side only.
"In the dark" was his brief and expressive way of ordering coffee without
milk.
"Extra ladies' salad" meant chicken salad.
-----
Sandusky Star (Ohio), Jan. 27, 1899, p. 1, col. 4
Bowery English is a language of its own. It is distinctly foreign to the
Anglo-Saxon commonly in vogue in the ordinary walks of life. It is used
almost exclusively in the restaurants of the thoroughfare and is apt to
startle strangers. For instance, a customer not accustomed to the life of
the Bowery, who wandered into one of its restaurants by mistake, might
call for ham and eggs, and the waiter would yell to the cook, "A slice for
a gazabo wid a souvenir from de feather factory." Or perhaps the customer
would desire two eggs fried plain. The waiter's order to the kitchen would
be in the choicest Bowery dialect about as follows. "T'row on a pair of de
white wings an have de sunny side up." A glass of milk would bring forth
an order for cow juice "wid an overcoat." A steak, "number seven;" beef
stew, "mixed Irish;" pork and beans, "Boston labor and Chicago capital;"
corned beef sandwich, "stare the cow in the face;" mush and milk,
"disturbed hen fruit;" Spanish omelet, "Santiago cake walk;" chocolate
eclair, "French roll wid black dirt on it;" rice and cream, "Chinese white
wedding," and so on until every article on the bill of fare has its own
name. "Why do we talk dat way to de cooks?" asked one of the waiters in
reply to a query. "Why, dem blokies wouldn't know what youse wuz talkin
about if youse said it any udder way."
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb  4 05:12:04 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 00:12:04 -0500
Subject: Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <E1Cwof2-0005UZ-00@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.001204.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 3, 2005, at 4:37 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote:

>> sammies

sammies?!


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb  4 05:14:56 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 00:14:56 -0500
Subject: "Have Car, Will Travel" (1929)
In-Reply-To: <15c.495b8429.2f343e55@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.001456.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:56 PM -0500 2/3/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>There's also "Have Suitcase, Will Travel," but that appears to be from  about
>1955. This one with "car" makes a lot of sense.

Agreed, although these were somewhat before my time

>It was often used in the
>classifieds.
>...

Aha.  The classifieds makes sense as an original locus, whether it
was "Have tux" or "Have car".  I was thinking telegrams--those
missing pronouns and articles do make it seem like telegraphese,
saving a few cents on each--but that would presumably apply to the
cost of classified ads too.

larry

>...
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>_Classified  Ad 21 -- No Title_
>(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=92037497&SrchMode=1&sid=15&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107
>485156&clientId=65882)
>New York Times (1857-Current  file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 18, 1929. p. 52 (1
>page)
>...
>EXECUTIVE, organizer, salesman, 38; fifteen years' experience; large
>following; especially salesman; have car; will travel.
>...
>...
>(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
>      _Appleton Post Crescent _
>(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Pf2/SIh9fJOKID/6NLMW2qZQMwvA+r4RRd0RnJZZHKn16pvJDRvJgw==)
>Wednesday, April
>24, 1929 _Appleton,_
>(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:appleton+have+car+and+will+travel+AND)
>_Wisconsin_
>(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+have+car+and+will+travel+AND)
>...local connection.  WILL TRAVEL. HAVE CAR. Address F.5S
>PostCrescent.....cement. Haul, yours out of the CAR, If WILL  pay
>you. One CAR  extra..


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb  4 06:33:15 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 01:33:15 -0500
Subject: Antiphrasis among the Rough Riders
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.013315.0500.>

Antiphrastic nicknaming (e.g., calling a bald man "Curly") was apparently
quite popular among the Rough Riders of the Spanish-American War:

-----
Los Angeles Times, Oct 4, 1898, p. 5
Rough Riders' Pet Names.
Origin of Some Queer Sobriquets Bestowed on the Troopers.
>From the New York Sun.
[...]
Many of the nicknames are conferred in a spirit of derision, their basis
lying in contrast. Two men of diametrically opposite type were assigned to
bunk together in the same tent, and essentially became sworn friends. One
was the typical fastidious clubman, the other a tobacco-chewing, cursing,
rough-and-ready bad man from the Middle West. Immediately the clubman was
christened "Tough Ike," and his bunkie became known through the regiment
as "that damn dude," or for short, "the D.D." "Metropolitan Bill" is a
citizen of the far West, whose chief claim to being a city man is that he
has an aunt living in New York.  "Sheeny Solomon," sometimes called "Old
Clo'es," is a red-headed Irishman, six feet two in his stocking feet. The
"Immigrant" is a trooper whose family helped settle New York. "Rubber Shoe
Andy" distinguished himself and won his name on scouting duty by
invariably tumbling over something with a great clatter at the very moment
when silence was most essential.
There are three bald-headed men in one troop, known, of course, as the
Sutherland Sisters-- Sister Jane, Sister Anne and Sister Araminta. A young
fellow-- and a mighty good fighter, too-- who is proud of his Jewish
blood, has accepted with perfect equanimity the nickname of the "Pork
Chop." In the same troop with him is a private who is probably the mildest
spoken man in the army. One evening, however, he got excited over
something and was plainly heard by several auditors whose testimony is
unimpeachable, to exclaim: "Oh thunder!" That settled his case. He has
been known ever since as "Blasphemy Bill." A Mississippi River gambler,
noted for his quite demeanor, is called "Hellroarer," while the most
picturesquely and flamboyantly profane man in the regiment rejoices in the
appellation of "Prayerful James." The funmaker for one troop is a
light-hearted Swede, always full of jokes, and because of his propensities
and his nationality called the "Weeping Dutchman." "Nigger" is a young
fellow who is so white as to be almost an albino. ...
It goes without saying that at the start all the fat men were called
"Living Skeleton," "Bean Pole," "Shadow," "Starvation Bill," "Dr. Tanner,"
and so on, while the thin troopers were generally designated as "Jumbo,"
"Heavyweight," "Anti-Fat," and the like.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 06:36:38 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 01:36:38 EST
Subject: Future (1861); Fool me once (1896); Conpoy (dried scallops)
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.013638.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FUTURE AIN'T WHAT IT USED TO BE
..
Ben Zimmer writes:
...
Earlier cites have "is not" or "isn't" instead of "ain't":

Los  Angeles Times, Nov 3, 1963, p. M5
Today's generation of collegians is an  intense, serious group and they
realize far more than their elders that the  "future is not what it used to
be," he [sc. Dr. Abram L. Sacher] said.
...
...
On 6 April 2004, I posted "Future not what used to be (1961); No future in
time travel (1987)."  No one remembers?
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
FOOL ME ONCE, SHAME ONE YOU; FOOL ME TWICE, SHAME ON ME
...
I can't believe I haven't discussed this. I don't know what Fred has, if
anything.
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
_SAN  DIEGO COUNTY.; Ben Butterworth's Great Speech Before Four Thousand
People. SAN  DIEGO BREVITIES. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=325525152&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110749692
1&clientId=65882)
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current  File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 8, 1896. p.
13 (1 page) :
Now the question is, whether we shall let the same party fool us twice. If  a
man fools me once, it's his fault; and if he fools me twice it's my  fault.
...
_DEVERY'S  DICTIONARY.; Recent Contributions to Picturesque English -- The
Phrase Factory  of the Ninth District -- Grinding Out Epigrams That Stick -- A
Rich Mine of New  York Wit and Slang -- Typical Thoughts of a "Tough." _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=118478542&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=P
ROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107497165&clientId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current. Sep 7, 1902. p. 33 (1 page)  :
If you want to see the real people of this town come over on Double Fifth
Avenue--that's what I call Tenth Avenue.
(...)
I learned that if you wanted a thing done, do it yourself, and then you  have
got next to the right man.
(...)
If you fool me once that's your fault. If you fool me twice that's my  fault.
(...)
No flies get into a closed mouth. See?
...
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
CONPOY
...
CONPOY--1,050 Google hits, 27 Google Groups hits
...
"Compoy" is discussed in this week's Village Voice. It's not in the OED and
not in William Grimes's EATING YOUR WORDS. "Conpoy" is mentioned in the Asia
Society's Asian food glossary.
...
...
_http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0505,sietsema,60642,15.html_
(http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0505,sietsema,60642,15.html)
...
Pumpkin stuffed with short ribs ($35) elicited oohs and aahs from my table
of lifelong Chinatown devotees, who have seen regional styles come and go in
this venerable immigrant neighborhood. Over the last decade, they've  su
ccessively feasted on Sichuan, Hunan, Chiu Chou, Shanghai, Fujianese,  Taiwanese,
Vietnamese, Hong Kong, and Malaysian fare, and now it was time to  come home to
the clean-tasting pleasures of Cantonese. Chinatown's oldest  cooking style
offers soups so thin and flavorful, you're tempted to gang several  up in a
single meal; ducks with skin as crisp as the crack of a whip; noodles  and fried
rice in dozens of permutations; bright-green vegetables smirched with  salty
oyster sauce; and seafood choices that range from local clams and flounder  to
such expensive imported exotica as shark's fin, abalone, and conpoy (dried
scallops).
...
...
_http://www.asiafood.org/glossary_2.cfm?wordid=2527_
(http://www.asiafood.org/glossary_2.cfm?wordid=2527)
...

Conpoy



Pinyin for gan bei, the Chinese name for a type of scallop. These very
expensive molluscs are cut from a type of sea scallop, dried and sold in Chinese
herbal shops. They require long soaking and steaming before they are ready to
be  eaten. A humble congee is elevated by adding 2-3 dried 'scallops' which
improves  the flavour no end.
Purchasing and storing: The large ones have better flavour. Purchase  from a
shop which has good turnover. They will keep indefinitely in an airtight
glass jar, but you don't want to buy any which are too ancient.
Preparation: Soak 4 dried scallops in enough warm water to cover and  steam
30 minutes or until soft. Pull apart into shreds, add to 2 cups cooked  rice
and 4 cups chicken stock together with the soaking liquid, and simmer with  4
slices fresh ginger until the rice becomes a porridge. Discard ginger. Stir in
a few drops of sesame oil, season congee with salt and white pepper, and serve
 hot, sprinkled with chopped spring onions (scallions). Serves 4.

...
...
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
...
_Sha Cha Jiang - Chinese Royal BBQ Sauce_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.fan.jai-maharaj/browse_frm/thread/b46668447e5cc68/94ef2f9146cf5cdd?q=conp
oy&_done=/groups?q=conpoy&start=10&scoring=d&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&&_doneTit
le=Back+to+Search&&d#94ef2f9146cf5cdd)
... Sancho (Japanese lemon-pepper, kinda) 5 pieces amaska (Asian
sweet-grass) 1 Tbs
dried shrimp -- soaked until soft 2-3 dried scallops  (conpoy) -- soaked
until ...
_alt.fan.jai-maharaj_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.fan.jai-maharaj)  -  Mar 21 1997, 9:15 pm by pier - 1 message - 1 author
...
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC
...
WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON WEDNESDAY?--McCormick and  Schmick's Seafood
Restaurant, 1285 Avenue of the Americas at 53nd Street. This  chain restaurant
finally reached New York City a few months ago. I think it's  perfectly fine, an
upscale Red Lobster.
...
WHERE DI DBARRY POPIK EAT ON THURSDAY?--Teng's  Pavilion, West 55th Street
between Fifth and Sixth Avenues. About average on  this block of interesting
restaurants.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 07:16:58 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 02:16:58 EST
Subject: "Fool me once" (1896, 1898 and Star Trek)
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.021658.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Could "fool me once..." be a political phrase. from 1896?...I get on my
knees and pray we don't get fooled again. (WHO said that?)
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_Logan  Remembered.; Unlimited Enthusiasm. Sickles' Old-Fashioned Democracy.
Corporal  Tanner's Humor. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=428780311&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110749952
6&clientId=65882)
Chicago Daily Tribune  (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Oct 9, 1896. p. 4 (1 page)
...
A man can fool me once, but he can't fool me the second time.
...
...
_Other  23 -- No Title_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=422983081&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107499765&c
lientId=65882)
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963).  Chicago, Ill.: Oct 2, 1898. p. 32 (1
page)
...
When a man fools me once he won't ever have the chance to do it  again.
...
...
...
(GOOGLE)
...
_http://www.useful-information.info/quotations/cute_quotes.html_
(http://www.useful-information.info/quotations/cute_quotes.html)
...
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, prepare to die. - Klingon Proverb,
Star Trek


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 07:23:20 2005
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 02:23:20 EST
Subject: The stink/The stank
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.022320.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Double-entendre?  No.  I can't even think of one, in fact.  It's definitely a
single entendre.

-doug

In a message dated 1/21/2005 8:52:59 AM Central Standard Time,
wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes:
Is there a double-entendre in there for you, doug? For me there is.

-Wilson

On Jan 21, 2005, at 2:02 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Anecdote Alert: "Stank" has been my body-odor noun of choice at least
> since
> high school.
>
> -doug
>
> -dsb
> Douglas S. Bigham
> Department of Linguistics
> University of Texas - Austin
> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html
>

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 07:31:25 2005
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 02:31:25 EST
Subject: indenting paragraphs
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.023125.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In sophomore English in high school we were TAUGHT that you either indented
or double (or quadruple if the whole paper was double spaced) spaced between
paragraphs.

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 07:42:05 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 02:42:05 EST
Subject: "Ownership Society"
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.024205.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(GOOGLE NEWS)
_State of the union_
(http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/world_news/2005/02/02/state_of_the_union.html)
Guardian, UK -  <NOBR>Feb 2,
... Bush has coined the  phrase "ownership society" to frame the debate,
presenting the reforms as a way  of giving Americans more control over their own
fate. ...
...
...
Fred should include a Bush "ownership society" quote here. There  are mostly
bad hits before that, but I haven't looked at all the  databases.
...
...
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
...
_Another Bush Home Run_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.politics.democrats.d/browse_frm/thread/de293f67b9bba683/78e465626ca7cdce?q="ownership+socie
ty"&_done=/groups?as_q=&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=ownership+soci
ety&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&a
s_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=3&as_maxm=2&as_maxy=2003&safe=off&&_do
neTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#78e465626ca7cdce)
... I  want America to be an ownership society, a  society where a life of
work becomes
a retirement of independence." He also  said that a "generation of wealth ...

_alt.politics.democrats.d_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.politics.democrats.d)  - Mar 8 2002, 8:26 pm by Dana - 6 messages - 5  authors
...
_Best of Neutopia_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.cyberspace/browse_frm/thread/2141424b0de220d4/c2f5b57676b81f83?q="ownership+society"&_done=/grou
ps?as_q=&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=ownership+society&as_oq=&as_e
q=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_min
m=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=3&as_maxm=2&as_maxy=2
003&safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#c2f5b57676b81f83)
... To do this, we  must think beyond the ownership society, to one where  our
collective mythos allows us the freedom to self-actualize.  ...
_alt.cyberspace_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.cyberspace)  - Dec
18 1997, 1:32 pm by Doctress Neutopia - 1 message - 1 author
...
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
     _Post Standard _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2iYfV7N+C2qfIeN6MWSgMej+yyzmx9WB10IF+CsZYmrz)  Wednesday,
December 24, 2003 _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+ownership+society)  _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+ownership+society)
...of Onondaga County. Bush  sells OWNERSHIP SOCIETY There would be no.....he
is talking  about what he calls the OWNERSHIP SOCIETY. This is a bundle  of..

...
_Post Standard _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2ng5EdsWvp4xzV1+7dgm14AJ8O04uNk1K0IF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday, September
02, 2004 _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+ownership+society)  _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+ownership+society)
...Bush second-term agenda  will be the "OWNERSHIP SOCIETY" he has been
pitching.....Bush said his goal is "to promote an OWNERSHIP  SOCIETY in America."
"That's..
...
...
...

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("ownership society")
...
_SOUTHERN  CALIFORNIA NEWS; PASADENA. ORGANIZATION OF THE SOCIAL UNIVERSITY.
A Work Begun  in Pasadena by Which the Coming of the Millennium is to Be
Hastened--Sunday  Outings--City Delinquent Tax List. SUNDAY OUTINGS. LYCEUM LEAGUE.
DELINQUENT TAX  LIST. PASADENA BREVITIES. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=325663922&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName
=HNP&TS=1107502111&clientId=65882)
Los Angeles Times  (1886. Jan 18, 1897. p. 9 (1 page)
...
_Display  Ad 11 -- No Title_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=100549869&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107502
111&clientId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current  file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 26, 1912. p. 7 (1
page)
...
_Ireland,  Ireland, Green and Sad"; Padraic Colum Evokes the Soul of Erin in
a Volume of  Sketches Marked by Fine Understanding THE ROAD ROUND IRELAND. By
Padraic Colum.  492 pp. New York: The Macmillan Company. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=98514319&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&
RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107502111&clientId=65882)
By HERBERT  S. GORMAN. New York Times (1857-Current file).  New York, N.Y.:
Oct 3, 1926. p. BR6 (1 page)
...
_Britain  Proposes $280,000,000 Program for Housing_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=90540667&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=3
09&VName=HNP&TS=1107502111&clientId=65882)
By CLYDE H.  FARNSWORTH Special to The New York Times. New York Times
(1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 29, 1963. p. 10 (1 page)
...
_Allende's  First 100 Days: The Socialism Is Low Key; Allende Regime's First
Hundred Days:  The Socialism Is Low Key _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=83205207&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP
&TS=1107502111&clientId=65882)
By JUAN de ONISSpecial to  The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current
file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 15, 1971. p. 1 (2 pages)
...
_New  Kids Making More Enemies Than Friends; NOTEBOOK _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=5&did=117265261&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&R
QT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107502111&clientId=65882)
By  MURRAY CHASS. New York Times (1857-Current file).  New York, N.Y.: Dec 7,
1997. p. SP5 (1 page)


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 07:57:26 2005
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 02:57:26 EST
Subject: Numbers for words (was Teen Lingo Site)
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.025726.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wow.  I really wish that site had cites.  The number code myth for 8-ball, as
I know it, would get me neither OE800 or an eigth of an ounce.  I'd get some
speed/coke/rat poison mixture.  Like really low grade crystal meth or
something.

Also, IMHO, Van Halen was the last of the metal bands (before Metalica sold
out), were they not?  Allmusic.com lists them as: "hard rock, pop/rock, heavy
metal, arena rock, album rock, pop-metal".  But that's not the point.  The
rumor about 5150 as I remember it was that it was penal code for "sex with
animals" or maybe "death by sex" or something like that.  Definitely sexual, though.



In a message dated 2/2/2005 7:46:29 AM Central Standard Time,
gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes:
On Feb 2, 2005, at 06:59, Ron Silliman wrote:
>  Thus a heavy metal band some years back had an album (in
> pre-CD days) called 5150

I would hardly call Van Halen a heavy metal band. Maybe not even metal.
How about just rock? Loud rock? Hair band? Hair band formerly fronted
by a guy who's now a balding EMT?

Also, nitpick central, but in 1986 53 million CD players were sold in
the US (according to this page:
<http://www.oneoffcd.com/info/historycd.cfm>).

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 08:16:00 2005
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 03:16:00 EST
Subject: n-heads
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.031600.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"The Herb Book" lists "Kansas niggerhead" as a common name for echinacea.

"The Herb Book", John Lust.  1974.  Bantam Books. p. 177.  I've got a newer
edition with the same entry, but I can't find it at the moment.

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb  4 08:18:41 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 03:18:41 -0500
Subject: "Prediction is difficult, especially about the future"
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.031841.0500.>

Speaking of incongruous quotations about the future, the databases have
dozens of cites since at least 1980 for "Prediction is difficult,
especially about the future" (or some variation thereof).  Attribution is
awarded to the usual suspects, from Mark Twain to Yogi Berra to an
anonymous Chinese proverb-maker, but the physicist Niels Bohr usually gets
the credit.  It also gets attributed to Bohr's Danish compatriots, Piet
Hein and Robert Storm Petersen.  This post from Ole Nielsby on
soc.culture.nordic looks authoritative:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.nordic/msg/864c4d82e5d91bff

        Aron Felix Gurski <agur... at sn.no> wrote:
        >Jon Haugsand wrote:
        >>
        >> Who said "Prediction is difficult, especially of the future"?
        >> (Or "Det er vanskelig at spaa, isaer om fremtiden".)
        >I don't know, but it *should* have been Piet Hein.

        The "Bevingede ord" ("Winged Words") dictionary of quotations
        (5th ed., GAD, 1979) says:

        ENGLISH: (xl by me)

        "Prediction is difficult - especially of the future" - is of
        unknown origin and certainly not by Storm Petersen, to whom it
        is always accredited. The phrase possibly occurred as a pun in
        the danish parlament 1935-39; it is quoted as such in the 4th
        book of memoirs by K.K. Steincke [social democrat MP and
        minister], *Goodbye and thanks*, p227; 1948, which covers
        aforementioned period of time. The originator was queried in
        public, but nobody seemed to know him. - On inquiry, Steincke
        (1880-1963) stated that he did not remember who it was.

        DANISH:
        "Det er svært at spå - især om fremtiden" - er af ukendt
        oprindelse og i hvert fald ikke af Storm Petersen, som altid
        får skyld for sætningen. Den er muligvis forefaldet som en
        sprogblomst i Folketinget 1935-39, gengives i hvert fald som
        sådan i K.K. Steincke's fjerde erindringsbog *Farvel og tak*,
        227; 1948, som omfatter nævnte tidsrum. Ophavsmanden har
        været offentligt efterlyst, men ingen synes at kende ham. -
        Steincke (1880-1963) har på forespørgsel oplyst, at han ikke
        huskede hvem det var.


-- Ben Zimmer


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 08:22:46 2005
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 03:22:46 EST
Subject: Groundhog Day as cinenym
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.032246.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Heather" was a popular (more or less) euphemism for bitch for a while (and
maybe still is).  From the movie "Heathers" I always supposed.

>From IMDB: Plot Summary for Heathers (1989)

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 08:34:05 2005
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 03:34:05 EST
Subject: California vowels
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.033405.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yeah, I've heard this.  I use this pronunciation sometimes.  It feels like
I'm quoting something.  Was there any kind of nasal-y thing (or even a breathy
thing) at the beginning?  It feels like, for me, that's more common with an
@-a  final vowel thing.  Yeah... I'm definitely "quoting" something with this...
just not sure what. I'll check with some friends about this.

-doug

In a message dated 2/2/2005 4:40:56 PM Central Standard Time,
flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes:
A follow-up to my "okay" query:
Today a grad student responded to something I said with [ok@]--with fairly
balanced stress on the two syllables in this case.  It might have even been
closer to [oka].  But he's from Cleveland!  Which makes me wonder if this
is a kind of "underground" young persons' adoption, spread from
wherever?  He's 24-ish, very hip, etc.  Has anyone else heard this?

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From Jerryekane at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 08:43:24 2005
From: Jerryekane at AOL.COM (Jerry E Kane)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 03:43:24 EST
Subject: Advertising Slogans
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.034324.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 A few favorites.



Line:   "A little dab'll do ya."
Brand:  Brylcreem
Agency: Kenyon & Eckhardt
Year:   1949


Line:   "I'd walk a mile for a Camel."
Brand:  Camel
Agency: N W Ayer
Year:   1921




Line:   "M'm! M'm! Good!"
Brand:  Campbell's Soup
Agency: BBDO
Year:   1935


Line:   "The pause that refreshes."
Brand:  Coca-Cola
Agency:
Year:   1929


Line:   "Look, Ma, no cavities!"
Brand:  Crest
Agency: Benton & Bowles
Year:   1958



Line:   "Have it your way."
Brand:  Burger King
Agency: BBDO
Year:   1973


Line:   "Don't leave home without it."
Brand:  American Express
Agency: Ogilvy & Mather
Year:   1975

Line:   "You're in good hands with Allstate."
Brand:  Allstate
Agency: Leo Burnett
Year:   1956


Line:   "The milk chocolate melts in your mouth, not in your hand."
Brand:  M&Ms
Agency: Ted Bates
Year:   1954


Line:   "Good to the last drop."
Brand:  Maxwell House
Agency:
Year:   1915


Line:   "Got Milk?"
Brand:  Milk
Agency: Goodby, Silverstein & Partners
Year:   1993


Line:   "When it rains, it pours!"
Brand:  Morton Salt
Agency:
Year:   1911


Line:   "Snap! Crackle! Pop!"
Brand:  Kellogg's Rice Krispies
Agency: J Walter Thompson
Year:   1932


For more:




The Advertising Slogan Hall of Fame
http://www.adslogans.co.uk/hof/


Jerry E Kane
Los Angeles, CA


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb  4 14:01:34 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 06:01:34 -0800
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.060134.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Scumbag" comes close:

"Isn't he the scuzzcrack who fired you from Yearbook?"..."You fired me, remember? Because you're a scuzzcrack!"

JL
Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is the meaning of "scuzzcrack"? It's not as obvious as that of
"pimpmobile."

-Wilson

On Feb 3, 2005, at 10:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The possibility that Wilson may be the inglorious Milton who coined
> "pimpmobile" reminds me that back on Oct. 22 I reported two
> occurrences of the word "scuzzcrack" on CBS's "Joan of Arcadia" that
> evening, a word which had not appeared on the Net or anywhere else
> that I was aware of.
>
> Despite its simultaneous reception in millions of American homes,
> there is still no evidence of wider usage more than 90 days later.
>
> So if Wilson set "pimpmobile" afloat in 1963 without the aid of mass
> media, we reasonably might not expect it to surface till sometime in
> the mid 22nd century.
>
> A quick Google check uncovers about one quarter million examples of
> "pimpmobile" on the Web alone. I am sorry to report, therefore, that
> any claim in favor of Wilson's unique ownership of this word for
> copyright, trademark, or servicemark purposes is likely to be
> staunchly contested.
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:38 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Thanks, Wilson. The military sense must be fairly obscure, since I
>> just discovered it and it seems to go back to the '50s among Morse
>> operators. Pretty expressive, though.
>>
>> As for "pimpmobile," it seems to have taken a full decade for your
>> creation to have reached the print media.
>>
>> JL
>
> You know what gives me the jaws (there's a bit in HDAS about this use
> of "jaws"; can't recall at the moment whether it has this particular
> version) about "pimpmobile"? There's simply no way to find out whether
> I'm really *the* source. It's such an obvious coinage that any number
> of other people could have come up with it any number of times. It's
> even possible that the first person to use the word in print coined it
> independently. Sigh! No 15 minutes of fame for me.
>
> -Wilson
>
>
>> Wilson Gray wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> When I was a teenager in the 'Fifties in St. Louis,
>> "dittybop(p)er"/diddybop(per)" was a fairly mild insult that meant
>> something like "wannabe hipster." There was no verb form.
>>
>> Unfortunately, when I was in The War, I didn't have occasion to come
>> into contact with any Morse-code operators. More useless information:
>> when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it sounds like Morse code
>> to
>> the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the equipment available in
>> the
>> late '50's.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>>
>> On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>> Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> -
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Have discovered that besides their tedious old meanings, so familiar
>>> that I needn't bore you with them, these words have been used in the
>>> military with the senses "high-speed Morse operator" and "high-speed
>>> Morse receiver/transmitter." To "dittybop" also means "to transmit
>>> Morse code at high speed."
>>>
>>> Can any of my distinguished colleagues and consultants add anything
>>> to
>>> the above from personal experience ?
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
>


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From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Fri Feb  4 14:09:35 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:09:35 -0600
Subject: Tenure Quote
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.080935.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A bit off topic, but we do talk about quotations here..

Does anyone know the full text and/or who said it when, of the quote
that says something like this:  "In higher education, we only get all
worked up about tenure (or something like that) because it means so little"

That's a very bad paraphrase of it, but the gist of the quote is that
things that college profs get all wound up about are things which in the
scheme of things, don't make a lot of difference.

Sorry for the vagueness.  I tried searching for quotes on tenure and
came up with nothing that worked.

Thanks!

Patti Kurtz
Minot State University
--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb  4 14:24:18 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 06:24:18 -0800
Subject: Numbers for words (was Teen Lingo Site)
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.062418.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DSB's understanding of "eightball" (almost certainly authentic) seems to have been influenced by "behind the eightball." As "1/8 ounce" it's been around for nearly a decade, likewise as "Olde English 800."  The Usenet groups show exx. of each.

JL

Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Douglas Bigham
Subject: Re: Numbers for words (was Teen Lingo Site)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow. I really wish that site had cites. The number code myth for 8-ball, as
I know it, would get me neither OE800 or an eigth of an ounce. I'd get some
speed/coke/rat poison mixture. Like really low grade crystal meth or
something.

Also, IMHO, Van Halen was the last of the metal bands (before Metalica sold
out), were they not? Allmusic.com lists them as: "hard rock, pop/rock, heavy
metal, arena rock, album rock, pop-metal". But that's not the point. The
rumor about 5150 as I remember it was that it was penal code for "sex with
animals" or maybe "death by sex" or something like that. Definitely sexual, though.



In a message dated 2/2/2005 7:46:29 AM Central Standard Time,
gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes:
On Feb 2, 2005, at 06:59, Ron Silliman wrote:
> Thus a heavy metal band some years back had an album (in
> pre-CD days) called 5150

I would hardly call Van Halen a heavy metal band. Maybe not even metal.
How about just rock? Loud rock? Hair band? Hair band formerly fronted
by a guy who's now a balding EMT?

Also, nitpick central, but in 1986 53 million CD players were sold in
the US (according to this page:
).

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb  4 14:27:02 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 06:27:02 -0800
Subject: Groundhog Day as cinenym
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.062702.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Still in use with the high-school crowd.

JL

Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Douglas Bigham
Subject: Re: Groundhog Day as cinenym
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Heather" was a popular (more or less) euphemism for bitch for a while (and
maybe still is). From the movie "Heathers" I always supposed.

>From IMDB: Plot Summary for Heathers (1989)

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
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From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Feb  4 14:32:34 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:32:34 -0500
Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.093234.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        A large number of web sites attribute this, without further citation, to Paul Valery, the French writer who died in 1945.  The quotation is often given as "The trouble with our times is that the future is not what it used to be."  Presumably the original, if it was indeed by Valery, was in French.

        There are several books entitled, or whose titles include the words, "The Future Is Not What It Used To Be."  It might be worth checking to see if any of them give better citations of the source quotation.

John Baker


From gingi at POBOX.COM  Fri Feb  4 14:43:00 2005
From: gingi at POBOX.COM (Rachel Sommer)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:43:00 -0500
Subject: disposable garbage bags
In-Reply-To: <20050202162204.7F68610A5C7@lime.pobox.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.094300.0500.>

As the person who forwarded it to Mark, I should point out that the person
who found the "disposable garbage bags" lives in India, in a major
metropolis.

--
--<@
Rachel L.S. Sommer
http://www.gingicat.org
"If you scratch a cynic, you find a disappointed idealist."
                               --George Carlin


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Feb  4 15:43:20 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 07:43:20 -0800
Subject: "Fool me once" (1896, 1898 and Star Trek)
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.074320.0800.>

>http://www.useful-information.info/quotations/cute_quotes.html_
>Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, prepare to die. - Klingon
Proverb,
>Star Trek

I don't believe that Klingon proverb is from the television series. It may
be from one of the Star Trek novels.

The quote in the original series was:

SCOTTY: "There's an old, old saying on Earth, Mr. Sulu. Fool me once, shame
on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

CHEKOV: "I know this saying. It was invented in Russia."

Episode "Friday's Child, air date 1 Dec 1967.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Feb  4 15:49:47 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:49:47 -0500
Subject: Nothing to declare; Rotten tangerine (1959)...
In-Reply-To: <20050204050052.E1AF8B24F7@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.104947.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry writes:
   >>>>>
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Daily Intelligencer  Monday, November 22, 1982 Doylestown, Pennsylvania
...ruler and In turn being beaned with a ROTTEN TANGERINE. Another bit of..
Pg. 20, col. 3:
Remember that little ditty about "I hate Bosco. Bosco's bad for me. Mommy
put it in my milk to try and poison me. I fooled Mommy. I put it in her tea,
and now there is no mommy to try and poison me."
(...)
 <<<<<

Ah yes, I remember it well. But the version I remember hews a little more
closely to the words of the commercial that it parodies:

I hate Bosco, it's full of TNT.
Mama put it in my milk to try and poison me.
But I fooled mama, I put it in her tea,
And now she's 6 feet under, wishing she was me.

As I recall, the original first two lines are "I love Bosco, it's rich and
chocolatey. / Mama put it in my milk for extra energy."

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Feb  4 15:52:13 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:52:13 -0500
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <20050204050052.E1AF8B24F7@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.105213.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray writes:
   >>>>>
 More useless information:
when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it sounds like Morse code to
the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the equipment available in the
late '50's.
 <<<<<

But extremely fast and regular, distinctively so I think.

-- Mark (ex-WV2PBR, circa 1964)
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Feb  4 16:08:33 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:08:33 -0600
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.100833.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think, that rather than saying he owned the word "pimpmobile", he was
saying he _owned_ a pimpmobile.  My mental picture of Wilson is now one
of the "Huggy Bear"/Antonio Fargas sort, or maybe the "gentleman of
leisure" played by Garret Morris in the SNL sketch, "Fred Garvin, Male
Prostitute".

Wilson is truly a renaissance man.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:26 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
>
>I am sorry to
> report, therefore, that any claim in favor of Wilson's unique
> ownership of this word for copyright, trademark, or
> servicemark purposes is likely to be staunchly contested.
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb  4 16:43:58 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:43:58 -0800
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.084358.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No, no, no. I imagine Wilson merely disparaging someone else's pimpmobile. I imagine the '64s were more conservative than later models, though.

JL

"Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think, that rather than saying he owned the word "pimpmobile", he was
saying he _owned_ a pimpmobile. My mental picture of Wilson is now one
of the "Huggy Bear"/Antonio Fargas sort, or maybe the "gentleman of
leisure" played by Garret Morris in the SNL sketch, "Fred Garvin, Male
Prostitute".

Wilson is truly a renaissance man.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:26 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
>
>I am sorry to
> report, therefore, that any claim in favor of Wilson's unique
> ownership of this word for copyright, trademark, or
> servicemark purposes is likely to be staunchly contested.
>


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Feb  4 16:53:23 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:53:23 -0500
Subject: Dialectic or dialectal?
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.115323.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A recent issue of the /Anderson Valley Advertiser/ quotes at length from an
entry in RHHDAS (on the derivation of "honky") which uses "dialectic" where
I would have expected "dialectal."  Is this standard RHHDAS usage, or
perhaps a typo or misquote?
A. Murie


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb  4 17:05:36 2005
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:05:36 -0800
Subject: BEI MIR BIST DU SCHON
In-Reply-To: <l03130303be28a4809cbd@[12.107.141.162]>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.090536.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've got a Bei Mir Twist Du Schon album at home (real
vinyl, long player). I picked it up for a couple of
bucks at a garage sale or something. Lots of Yiddish
twist songs.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Feb  4 17:04:17 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:04:17 -0800
Subject: Dialectic or dialectal?
In-Reply-To: <l03130300be2957108c83@[12.107.141.162]>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.090417.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sounds like the Advertiser may be engaging in a little dialectal
materialism.

--On Friday, February 4, 2005 11:53 AM -0500 sagehen
<sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:

> A recent issue of the /Anderson Valley Advertiser/ quotes at length from
> an entry in RHHDAS (on the derivation of "honky") which uses "dialectic"
> where I would have expected "dialectal."  Is this standard RHHDAS usage,
> or perhaps a typo or misquote?
> A. Murie



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Feb  4 17:47:19 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 12:47:19 -0500
Subject: Dialectic or dialectal?
In-Reply-To: <l03130300be2957108c83@[12.107.141.162]>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.124719.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Feb 04, 2005 at 11:53:23AM -0500, sagehen wrote:
> A recent issue of the /Anderson Valley Advertiser/ quotes at length from an
> entry in RHHDAS (on the derivation of "honky") which uses "dialectic" where
> I would have expected "dialectal."  Is this standard RHHDAS usage, or
> perhaps a typo or misquote?

It's a mis-expansion (at least, I assume, without having seen the AVA
article).

At the _honky_ entry, HDAS uses "dial.", which is explained in
the Abbreviations as "dialect(al)".

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Feb  4 17:58:35 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 12:58:35 -0500
Subject: Dialectic or dialectal?
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1107507857@[10.218.201.228]>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.125835.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Sounds like the Advertiser may be engaging in a little dialectal
>materialism.
>
>--On Friday, February 4, 2005 11:53 AM -0500 sagehen
><sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:
>
>> A recent issue of the /Anderson Valley Advertiser/ quotes at length from
>> an entry in RHHDAS (on the derivation of "honky") which uses "dialectic"
>> where I would have expected "dialectal."  Is this standard RHHDAS usage,
>> or perhaps a typo or misquote?
>> A. Murie

>Peter A. McGraw
~~~~~~~~~~
As when standard form meets dialectal form and produces blend(!) that
becomes the new standard?
AM

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb  4 18:00:31 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:00:31 -0500
Subject: Tenure Quote
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.130031.0500.>

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:09:35 -0600, Patti J. Kurtz <kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET>
wrote:

>A bit off topic, but we do talk about quotations here..
>
>Does anyone know the full text and/or who said it when, of the quote
>that says something like this:  "In higher education, we only get all
>worked up about tenure (or something like that) because it means so little"
>
>That's a very bad paraphrase of it, but the gist of the quote is that
>things that college profs get all wound up about are things which in the
>scheme of things, don't make a lot of difference.
>
>Sorry for the vagueness.  I tried searching for quotes on tenure and
>came up with nothing that worked.

This sounds like a variation of the old quote, "The politics of the
university are so intense because the stakes are so low."  Barry Popik has
discussed this quote here before:
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0409D&L=ads-l&P=R18842

The quote gets attributed to many sources, but the originator was
apparently Wallace S. Sayre, professor of political science at Columbia.
The earliest attribution available on JSTOR is from _PS_ (Autumn 1977), p.
511, in a letter to the editor from Sayre's collaborator Herbert Kaufman.
Kaufman was correcting the attribution given in a recent _New Republic_
editorial (which said it was from Kissinger). According to Kaufman, this
is one of "Sayre's Laws", and "a more general statement of it appeared,
correctly  attributed, in Charles Issawi, _Issawi's Laws of Social Motion_
(Hawthorn, 1973), p. 178."  Kaufman said that this particular "Sayre's
Law" had been around for decades and that he himself had heard it directly
from Sayre a quarter century earlier.

Fred Shapiro turned up Issawi's formulation of Sayre's Law: "In any
dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of
the stakes at issue -- that is why academic politics are so bitter." See:
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0409E&L=ads-l&P=R3903

Another one of Sayre's Laws is recorded on Barry Popik's website: "The
mayors of New York come from nowhere and go nowhere."
http://www.barrypopik.com/article/256/sayres-law-mayors-of-ny-come-from-nowhere-and-go-nowhere


--Ben Zimmer


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Fri Feb  4 18:13:43 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 12:13:43 -0600
Subject: Tenure Quote
In-Reply-To: <200502041300.6734203b84535d@rly-nc03.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.121343.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, that's it exactly-- thanks!

Patti

bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU wrote:

>This sounds like a variation of the old quote, "The politics of the
>university are so intense because the stakes are so low."  Barry Popik has
>discussed this quote here before:
>http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0409D&L=ads-l&P=R18842
>
>
>

Dr. Patti J. Kurtz

Assistant Professor, English

Director of the Writing Center

Minot State University

Minot, ND 58707



Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that.



Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims
that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program?



Foster: But we are RIGHT!



Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb  4 21:09:36 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:09:36 -0500
Subject: 2 Nancy Astor Quotes
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F2062ACB88@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.160936.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is anyone willing to check ProQuest Historical Newspapers for the earliest
occurrences there for two Nancy Astor quotes:

One reason I don't drink is that I want to know when I am having a good
time.

The penalty of success is to be bored by people who snub you.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb  4 21:51:58 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:51:58 -0500
Subject: Fwd: question
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.165158.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

forwarded from the Yale Rabbi via a colleague,.  Anyone know?



larry
==============


The Rabbi, Jim Ponet, asks:

... explain if you will the structure "Not to worry."  Does it emulate
anything Yiddish.  Then there's "to kill for,"  "to die for."

It does follow a Hebrew structure arguable.  But I doubt that origin.

--- end forwarded text


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb  4 22:12:39 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 17:12:39 -0500
Subject: The Camel Walk*
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.171239.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jerrry E Kane quoted:

Line:   "I'd walk a mile for a Camel."
Brand:  Camel
Agency: N W Ayer
Year:   1921

To which I add:

"A smoker will walk a mile for *any* cigarette!"

Unfortunately, I no longer remember the source of this or even the
exact reading. Readers Digest? This Week? Some radio show? I read it or
heard it some time in the '40's.

In any case, as a recovering smokaholic with just a soupcon of
emphysema, I can attest to the truth of the addendum.

* The "camel walk" was a popular dance amongst the colored in the
'Forties.

-Wilson Gray


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb  4 22:56:25 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 17:56:25 -0500
Subject: 2 Nancy Astor Quotes
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.175625.0500.>

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:09:36 -0500, Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
wrote:
>
>The penalty of success is to be bored by people who snub you.

I don't see anything on Proquest for this one, but on Newspaperarchive
there are unattributed cites at least as far back as 1941 with this
wording: "The penalty of success is to be bored by the attentions of
people who formerly snubbed you" (e.g., _Charleroi Mail_ Pa., Jan. 30,
1941, p. 1). Various attributions turn up in the '50s and '60s -- Mary
Wilson Little is sometimes credited (e.g., in a Dec. 5, 1961 AP wire story
by Hal Boyle). Earl Wilson gave the quote at least a few times in his
syndicated column (with the wording: "...bored by the people who used to
snub you"), but he wasn't consistent with the attribution-- in a June 1,
1953 column he says it's from Charley Jones, while in a May 4, 1964 column
he says it's from Lady Astor (that's the earliest Lady Astor attribution I
came across).

--Ben Zimmer


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb  4 23:17:48 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 18:17:48 -0500
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <E1CwxoU-0006Hp-00@mx11.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.181748.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In addition to its other meanings, I know it as a synonym of "cunt,"
which, though occasionally used, doesn't have a lot of traction amongst
the bruz and cuz, for some random reason.

-Wilson

On Feb 4, 2005, at 2:23 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Double-entendre?  No.  I can't even think of one, in fact.  It's
> definitely a
> single entendre.
>
> -doug
>
> In a message dated 1/21/2005 8:52:59 AM Central Standard Time,
> wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes:
> Is there a double-entendre in there for you, doug? For me there is.
>
> -Wilson
>
> On Jan 21, 2005, at 2:02 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Anecdote Alert: "Stank" has been my body-odor noun of choice at least
>> since
>> high school.
>>
>> -doug
>>
>> -dsb
>> Douglas S. Bigham
>> Department of Linguistics
>> University of Texas - Austin
>> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html
>>
>
> -dsb
> Douglas S. Bigham
> Department of Linguistics
> University of Texas - Austin
> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb  4 23:25:08 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 18:25:08 -0500
Subject: question
In-Reply-To: <E1CxBMw-0005qA-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.182508.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, I've always considered "not to worry" to be an annoying Briticism.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 4, 2005, at 4:51 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Fwd: question
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> forwarded from the Yale Rabbi via a colleague,.  Anyone know?
>
>
>
> larry
> ==============
>
>
> The Rabbi, Jim Ponet, asks:
>
> ... explain if you will the structure "Not to worry."  Does it emulate
> anything Yiddish.  Then there's "to kill for,"  "to die for."
>
> It does follow a Hebrew structure arguable.  But I doubt that origin.
>
> --- end forwarded text
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Feb  5 00:44:42 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 19:44:42 -0500
Subject: Fwd: question
In-Reply-To: <p04320403be299b9588cb@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.194442.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>forwarded from the Yale Rabbi via a colleague,.  Anyone know?
>
>
>
>larry
>==============
>
>
>The Rabbi, Jim Ponet, asks:
>
>... explain if you will the structure "Not to worry."  Does it emulate
>anything Yiddish.  Then there's "to kill for,"  "to die for."

I don't know anything about Yiddish. But Yiddish is German, right? Hmmm,
but I don't know much about German either. Here's my naive notion anyway.

In German, IIRC, there is a conventional construction "[sein] zu [verb]" =
"be [verb]able" or so: e.g., "es ist zu fassen/glauben" (word-by-word
gloss: "it is to believe") means "it is believable" or "one might believe it".

Then presumably by analogy "it is to die for" = "one might die for it", "it
is to laugh" = "it is laughable", etc.

"Not to worry" might arise analogously, e.g., from something like "es ist
nicht zu befürchten" (gloss: "it is not to fear") = "it is not something to
fear", with the verb glossed as "worry [about]" instead of "fear" or with
the initial translation "not to fear" (which I have seen occasionally in
the same sense IIRC).

[Alternatively "not to worry" could be a contraction of something within
English like "I implore you not to worry".]

German scholars, please correct me if necessary.

-- Doug Wilson


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sat Feb  5 01:57:09 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 20:57:09 -0500
Subject: Fwd: question
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050204190840.02f860a0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.205709.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>The Rabbi, Jim Ponet, asks:
>>
>>... explain if you will the structure "Not to worry."  Does it emulate
>>anything Yiddish.  Then there's "to kill for,"  "to die for."
~~~~~~~
"Not to worry" has a kind of breezy quality that suggests to me that it's
simply
a case of  lowering the imperative tone of "I'm telling you not to worry!"
No particular foreign influence.
"To kill for" & "to die for," OTOH, do have a kind of Yiddish or German
resonance, to my ear, at least.
A. Murie


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Feb  5 02:22:42 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 21:22:42 -0500
Subject: Fwd: question
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.212242.0500.>

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 18:25:08 -0500, Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>
>On Feb 4, 2005, at 4:51 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>> forwarded from the Yale Rabbi via a colleague,.  Anyone know?
>> ==============
>> The Rabbi, Jim Ponet, asks:
>>
>> ... explain if you will the structure "Not to worry."  Does it emulate
>> anything Yiddish.  Then there's "to kill for,"  "to die for."
>>
>> It does follow a Hebrew structure arguable.  But I doubt that origin.
>>
>> --- end forwarded text
>
>FWIW, I've always considered "not to worry" to be an annoying Briticism.

The usage books agree that the expression originated in the UK.

-----
http://www.bartleby.com/68/38/4138.html
The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993.
<not to worry>
was originally a British English idiom, meaning "don't worry," "never
fear," but it's now beginning to appear in Conversational and Informal
American use.
-----

The OED3 draft entry for "not" has this note under sense 5a(c):

-----
(c) colloq. <not to -->: do not --.
Webster's Dict. Eng. Usage (1989) 670-1 noted the uncommonness of the
phrase <not to worry> in American English, and its disapproval by some
commentators, but U.S. examples are not uncommon from the later 1980s
onwards.
-----

Newspaperarchive finds scattered US usage in the '60s, e.g.:

-----
Lima News (Ohio), May 25, 1962, p. 20/2
"You're not here under arrest. You can leave when the hospital will
release you. Mrs. Barrett said she would look after your pets. Not to
worry."
[from the serialized version of _One for My Dame_ by Jack Webb]
-----
Salisbury Times (Md.), May 21, 1964, p. 6/2
Not to worry. Don't worry about anything. Go a-Maying. Like us.
-----

For the most part, early cites for "not to worry" appear in British or at
least European contexts.  (It probably entered Canadian English first.)


--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Feb  5 03:01:37 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 22:01:37 -0500
Subject: New techie term: crossbar latch
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.220137.0500.>

If the HP hype is to be believed, then "crossbar latch" should get early
consideration for "Word of the Decade"...

-----
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2005/050201a.html
News Release
Who Needs Transistors? HP Scientists Create New Computing Breakthrough at
Molecular Scale
Research could send transistors the way of the vacuum tube
PALO ALTO, Calif., Feb. 1, 2005
In a paper published in today's Journal of Applied Physics, three members
of HP Labs' Quantum Science Research (QSR) group propose and demonstrate a
"crossbar latch," which provides the signal restoration and inversion
required for general computing without the need for transistors. The
technology could result in computers that are thousands of times more
powerful than those that exist today.
-----
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/01/technology/01nano.html
New York Times
Hewlett Reports Advance in Molecular-Scale Device
By JOHN MARKOFF
Published: February 1, 2005
SAN FRANCISCO, Jan. 31 - A group of Hewlett-Packard researchers will
report on Tuesday that they have created a molecular-scale alternative to
the transistor. The device could increase the viability of a new
generation of ultrasmall electronics that would one day be smaller than
what is possible with today's silicon-based technology.
In an article to be published Tuesday in The Journal of Applied Physics,
three researchers at the quantum science research group of Hewlett-Packard
Labs, based in Palo Alto, Calif., describe how they have designed a
"crossbar latch," making it possible to perform a type of logic operation
that is essential to the functions of a modern computer.
-----
http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=JAPIAU000097000003034301000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=Yes
Journal of Applied Physics -- 1 February 2005
J. Appl. Phys. 97, 034301  (2005) (5 pages)
The crossbar latch: Logic value storage, restoration, and inversion in
crossbar circuits
Philip J. Kuekes, Duncan R. Stewart, and R. Stanley Williams
Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, 1501 Page Mill Road, MS 1123, Palo Alto,
California 94304
(Received 9 June 2004; accepted 29 September 2004; published online 30
December 2004)
Programmable crossbar circuits are one key architecture proposed for
integrated nanoscale electronics. Emphasizing practicality of fabrication,
many scenarios advocate crossbar circuits based on two-terminal devices.
In this case, however, signal restoration and inversion remain critical
weaknesses. Restoration is essential before the degraded output of one
logic gate can drive the input of a subsequent logic gate. Inversion is
required to generate a complete logic family. Here we describe and
demonstrate a solution to both problems, the crossbar latch. This device
stores a logic value on a signal wire, enabling logic value restoration,
and inversion. In combination with resistor/diode logic gates, these
operations in principle enable universal computing for crossbar circuits,
and potentially, integrated nanoscale electronics.
-----

--Ben Zimmer


From funex79 at CHARTER.NET  Sat Feb  5 04:13:56 2005
From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 20:13:56 -0800
Subject: Fwd: question
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.201356.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Concerning the phrase "not to worry"...I believe it was popularized in the
work of a British playwright named Arthur Pinero, who was Jewish, though I
doubt that he spoke Yiddish as he was of Portugese descen from a family long
in England.

Jerome Foster
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 1:51 PM
Subject: Fwd: question


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Fwd: question
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> forwarded from the Yale Rabbi via a colleague,.  Anyone know?
>
>
>
> larry
> ==============
>
>
> The Rabbi, Jim Ponet, asks:
>
> ... explain if you will the structure "Not to worry."  Does it emulate
> anything Yiddish.  Then there's "to kill for,"  "to die for."
>
> It does follow a Hebrew structure arguable.  But I doubt that origin.
>
> --- end forwarded text
>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Feb  5 05:28:29 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 00:28:29 -0500
Subject: dooce(d)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.002829.0500.>

The New York Times, the Times of London, NPR, and the BBC all citing
UrbanDictionary.com?  What's the world coming to?

-----
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dooced
"dooced", Urban Dictionary ("Jennifer"), Feb. 26, 2004
Losing your job for something you wrote in your online blog, journal,
website, etc.
Did you hear Mary got fired yesterday for writing about Becky in her blog?
Yeah, she got dooced.
-----
http://shenuts.com/index.php?p=818#comment-2190
Sarcastic Journalist ("Shyla"), Apr. 16, 2004
I learned the other day that "dooce" is a new slang term for someone who
loses their job because of their blog/website. You've been dooced.
-----
http://regionbroad.wiredhub.org/archives/000356.php
Region Broad, "Dude got DOOCED", Oct. 15, 2004
He spoke his opinion about his workplace on a bbs, and some smacked ass at
his place of work ratted him out, that's why. In other words, the practice
of doocing? Alive and well in NWI.
-----
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/start.html?pg=7
Wired, "Jargon Watch", Nov. 2004
Dooced
Losing your job over something you wrote online. Named after Dooce.com, a
blog run by Web developer Heather Armstrong. Armstrong got canned after
anonymous critiques of her coworkers were linked to her.
-----
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4115073.stm
BBC News, Jan. 3, 2005
A new term has emerged as a result. According to UrbanDictionary.com, to
be "dooced" means "losing your job for something you wrote in your online
blog, journal, website, etc." ...
And more bloggers could be "dooce dodging" in 2005 as employers wake up to
the technology, warns legal expert Nick Lockett from hi-tech law firm DL
Legal.
-----
The Herald (Glasgow), Jan. 13, 2005, p. 15 (Nexis)
Gordon is the first case of dismissal for blogging in the UK, but will
almost certainly not be the last if American precedents are anything to go
by. Heather B Armstrong, a former web designer, was dismissed in 2002 for
the unforgiving analysis on www.dooce.com of her co-workers.
She contributed to the coining of the term "dooced", which describes
someone fired for blogging about their employer.
-----
The Times (London), Jan. 15, 2005, p. 32 (Nexis)
Mr Gordon's was the first publicised example of a British blogger being
"dooced".
According to the Urban Dictionary site, dooced means "losing your job for
something you wrote in your online blog, journal, website etc".
With dozens of blogs springing up in Britain every day, many work related,
doocing is a risk for online diarists.
The word was coined after a Los Angeles web designer, Heather Armstrong,
lost her job in 2002 after telling stories about workmates on her readable
Dooce blog. ...
The issue has its own campaign site, the Bloggers' Rights Blog, which
lists dozens of companies that have dooced staff and urges employers to
establish clear policies on blogging.
-----
National Public Radio, Day to Day, Jan. 19, 2005 (Nexis)
Armstrong has become a kind of poster child for people in her situation,
and has even given birth to a new term, 'dooced,' which
UrbanDictionary.com defines as losing your job for something you wrote on
your online blog, as in, 'Dude, I heard Janie got dooced last week.' At
least a dozen people have been 'dooced' in recent years, including several
journalists.
-----
San Francisco Chronicle, Jan. 24, 2005, p. C1 (Nexis)
"I was one of the first (bloggers) to be fired," said Armstrong, 29, who
lives in Salt Lake City and blogs at www.dooce.com. She said the action
even spawned a new slang term -- "dooced" -- to lose your job for
something you wrote in your online blog or Web site.
-----
New York Times, Jan. 30, 2005 (Style) p. 1 (Nexis)
After someone sent an unsigned, untraceable e-mail message about Ms.
Armstrong's blog to her company's board in 2002, she was promptly
dismissed, and "Dooced" entered Urbandictionary.com as a term for "Losing
your job for something you wrote in your online blog, journal, Web site,
etc."
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Feb  5 05:50:11 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 00:50:11 -0500
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <E1Cx5kn-0000IJ-00@mx07.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.005011.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What does "WV2PBR" stand for?

-Wilson

On Feb 4, 2005, at 10:52 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson Gray writes:
>>>>>>
>  More useless information:
> when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it sounds like Morse code to
> the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the equipment available in the
> late '50's.
>  <<<<<
>
> But extremely fast and regular, distinctively so I think.
>
> -- Mark (ex-WV2PBR, circa 1964)
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb  5 08:13:02 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 03:13:02 EST
Subject: Buttered Side (1841,
 1857); Gods send nuts (1860); Oxford Quotations
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.031302.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OXFORD DICTIONARY OF PROVERBS(1982, 1992, 1998,  2003)
...
I had bought an older edition and have it buried in my  apartment, so I
decided to buy the 2003 edition. It contains some of the  proverbs I've discussed,
with some results better and some worse. Sorry  for not citing it before.
...
Pg. 31: YOU CAN'T TELL A BOOK BY ITS COVER is from 1929.  We beat that.
...
Pg. 60: WHY BUY THE COW IF THE MILK IS SO CHEAP? is from  1659.
...
Pg. 74: DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS is from  1973. We beat that.
...
Pg. 116: FOOL ME ONCE, SHAME ON ME is from 1611  ("deceive me once"). Sorry
for posting on this. Titelman didn't give a  date for it.
...
Pg. 119: THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH is from  1967. I had posted
that from about 30 years earlier.
...
Pg. 150: WHEN YOU ARE IN A HOLE, STOP DIGGING is from  1988. I had posted
1984.
...
Pg. 221: NO NAMES, NO PACK-DRILL is from 1923. I had  posted 1924.
...
Pg. 225: THERE'S NOWT SO QUEER AS FOLK is from 1905. I  posted 1872.
...
Pg. 237: IF YOU PAY PEANUTS, YOU GET MONKEYS is from  1966. I had posted 1968.
...
Pg. 278: IT'S A SIN TO STEAL A PIN is from 1875. I  posted 1841.
...
Pg. 337: A WOMAN, A DOG, AND A WALNUT TREE, THE MORE YOU  BEAT THEM, THE
BETTER THEY BE is from 1581. It's good to get additional  quotes, however, as the
walnut tree becomes a hickory tree.
...
Pg. 338: A WOMAN WITHOUT A MAN IS LIKE A FISH  WITHOUT A BICYCLE is a new
entry, dated from 1979. We all beat that  easily.
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
THE GODS SEND NUTS TO THOSE WHO HAVE NO  TEETH
...
Oxford cites 1929 American Speech for this. I don't know  what Fred has.
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_SUMMER  RESORTS.; LIFE AT SARATOGA AND NEWPORT. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=98875179&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309
&VName=HNP&TS=1107590540&clientId=65882)
>From  Our Own Correspondent.. New York Times  (1857-Current file). New York,
N.Y.: Aug 29, 1860. p. 2 (1 page)
...
But the Oriental adage that: "Heaven sends almonds to those who have  no
teeth," was verified in the disposal of that blanket.
...
...
-------------------------------------------------------------------
BUTTERED SIDE
...
Oxford has this proverb from 1867. It's like Murphy's  law--with two choices,
the worst outcome will result. Bread always falls  on the buttered side.
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARHIVE)
...
Tuesday, November 23, 1841 _Norwalk,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:norwalk+buttered+side+AND)  _Ohio_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+buttered+side+AND)
  _Huron Reflector _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wUP6BEk4rpmKID/6NLMW2vynnkNBVZv8E8crKPO4KeOd5XSGz6G6XQ==)

...
...not fall upon the And  always on the BUTTERED SIDE. My misfortunes are
many.....so  nicely with die but- ter of greasy SIDE into the dirt of despon-
and leave..
..

_Compiler _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2l8R0Uw+WhgZ844UMRqmSkAnyVnYmGViGw==)  Monday, October 26, 1857
_Gettysburg,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:gettysburg+buttered+side+AND)  _Pennsylvania_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+buttered+side+AND)      ...tell upun the floor, And
always on the BUTTERED SIDE For particulars see  result..
...
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
ASTOR QUOTES
...
...

     _Newark Advocate _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=NUCC4daB2aKKID/6NLMW2lPp6f8peiWooMLomvOZtCQRXo9KEVIjaw==)  Saturday, April 29,
1961 _Newark,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:newark+don)   _Ohio_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+don)
...I wish lo know when I am  having a GOOD TIME. Lady ASTOR. keeps life safe
buL.....been Quips Quotes The reason why I DON'T DRINK is  because..
...
     _Gettysburg Times _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=thiGuD36VKiKID/6NLMW2stPbckAGtnvxF2yQCjnj/sExD5VcLbMmw==)  Tuesday, December 24,
1996 _Gettysburg,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:gettysburg+don)  _Pennsylvania_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+don)      ...I want to know when I  am having a GOOD
TIME." Lady ASTOR "One cannot  think well.....trying Colette "One of the reasons
I DON'T  DRINK is that..


...
     _Reno Evening Gazette _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2moNhPjAsYlopc0Jc+KfWklHIfxXPbDZ6EIF+CsZYmrz)  Monday,
May 04, 1964 _Reno,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:reno+penalty+of+success+and+astor)  _Nevada_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nevada+penalty+of+success+and+astor)      ...together.
REMEMBERED QUOTE:  'The PENALTY OF SUCCESS is to be bored by.....people  who
used to snub you." Lady ASTOR. EARL'S PEARLS: All that  cooking..


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb  5 10:16:29 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 05:16:29 EST
Subject: "Watching grass grow" (Damon Runyon?)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.051629.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WATCHING GRASS GROW--12,000 Google hits, 3,330 Google Groups hits
...
I was just watching the Knicks game. It wasn't like watching grass  grow. It
was more like watching a train wreck. But let's discuss the  grass.
...
Not in OED? Not in HDAS? Not in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations? Does
Fred want an exact Runyon cite?
...
...

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS_

_This  Morning...; This Morning . . . _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=121326913&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP
&TS=1107596981&clientId=65882)
With Shirley  Povich. The Washington Post and Times Herald  (1954-1959).
Washington, D.C.: Sep 22, 1958. p. A14 (2 pages)
...
Page onr:
NEWPORT, R. I., Sept. 21--Damon Runyon's Guys and Dolls was merely  one of
America's legacies from that fine impressionist. He once wrote into  a ten-word
sentence a description of yacht racing that has gone ringing  down through the
years as the model of scorn for that esoteric sport with  its spinnakers,
liffs, jibs, jibes and complete reliance on windy  drafts.
...
Runyon was reporting his first America's Cup race. It was a switch  from his
world of the violence of the fight camps, the crash of the World  Series home
runs, the race track whirl of fast horses and whipping riders,  and the
body-assaults of football. To the slow moving yacht races he  reacted with
impatience. "Watching an America's Cup race," he wrote, "is  like watching grass grow."


...
...
...


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Feb  5 12:10:28 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 07:10:28 -0500
Subject: Congressional eggcorns: off-times, off-repeated
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.071028.0500.>

On his Talking Points Memo blog, Joshua Micah Marshall reprints a letter
he received from Rep. Sherry Boehlert (R-NY).  It begins:

    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/004681.php
    Enjoyed your clever and off-times amusing comments.

Marshall doesn't comment on Boehlert's use of "off-times" (he's more
concerned with Boehlert's position on Bush's Social Security plan).  But I
thought this was an interesting eggcorn from on high.

Surely "off-times" makes perfect sense as a pronunciation spelling for
"oft-times", simplifying the geminate /tt/ as is common for most American
speakers (MWCD marks the first /t/ as optional).

Semantically, however, the reanalysis is a bit more puzzling to me. I
would think that replacing the archaic/poetic "oft" element with the more
common "off" might alter the sense somewhat -- from 'frequently' to
'occasionally' or 'intermittently' (evoking not just the hiatal sense of
"off-time" but also "off-and-on", "on again, off again", etc.).

A Google search on <offtimes> doesn't really bear out my hunch, though
perhaps one could discern a subtle semantic shift going on:

-----
I offtimes did just that! ... Offtimes, Nannie read to us.
http://www.yerwoodcenter.org/images/Joyce%20Yerwood%20Letter%20to%20Sister%20NOSTALGIA.doc
-----
It appears that I don't write offtimes to you My Mollie, my dear girl.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/7305/head.htm -
-----
This is offtimes the fault of incorrectly using a DataReader which
requires manual connection handling.
http://www.error-bank.com/microsoft.public.dotnet.framework.adonet/74399_Thread.aspx
-----
Big Valley Aviation was started over 27 years ago to address the offtimes
specialized and unique maintenance and overhaul needs of regional
helicopters.
http://www.bigvalleyaviation.com/
-----
The God associated with youthfulness, he is offtimes conflated with Pryderi.
http://www.fatheroak.com/deities2.html
-----
The game sounds offtimes make you jump out of your chair, or drop your mouse.
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/ doom3/reader_review.html?id=1987015
-----

There are hundreds more examples for "off(-)times" with or without the
hyphen.  And it appears that "off-" is replacing "oft-" in other compounds
where no geminate /tt/ is involved, such as "oft-repeated" >
"off-repeated" or "oft-quoted" > "off-quoted".  Googling on <the
off-repeated> turns up 112 examples, and the first page has yet another
eggcorn from the halls of Congress...

-----
http://cantwell.senate.gov/news/releases/2002_03_20_cfr_final.html
Senator Russ Feingold (D-WI) credited Senator Cantwell for playing a
leadership role in passing the legislation. "One of our newest members,
Senator Maria Cantwell, also gave us important momentum when she made
campaign finance reform a central issue in her campaign and gave this bill
her strong support," Feingold said. "After her victory, the off-repeated
claim that no Senator has ever lost an election over this issue can no
longer be made."
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From jasonnorris at YAHOO.COM  Sat Feb  5 13:17:01 2005
From: jasonnorris at YAHOO.COM (Jason Norris)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 05:17:01 -0800
Subject: "Watching grass grow" (Damon Runyon?)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.051701.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I like that one. I had not heard it before. There are a couple of similar phrases I have heard.

"It's like watching mud dry."

or

"It's like watching paint dry."

Or sometimes, "I'd rather watch mud dry." Funny thing, the guy who said that was on vacation in Disney World. But then, he was a chaperone for a bunch of high school kids. Maybe even Disney was boring for him.

Jason


Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: "Watching grass grow" (Damon Runyon?)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WATCHING GRASS GROW--12,000 Google hits, 3,330 Google Groups hits
...
I was just watching the Knicks game. It wasn't like watching grass grow. It
was more like watching a train wreck. But let's discuss the grass.
...
Not in OED? Not in HDAS? Not in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations? Does
Fred want an exact Runyon cite?
...
...

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS_

_This Morning...; This Morning . . . _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=121326913&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP
&TS=1107596981&clientId=65882)
With Shirley Povich. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959).
Washington, D.C.: Sep 22, 1958. p. A14 (2 pages)
...
Page onr:
NEWPORT, R. I., Sept. 21--Damon Runyon's Guys and Dolls was merely one of
America's legacies from that fine impressionist. He once wrote into a ten-word
sentence a description of yacht racing that has gone ringing down through the
years as the model of scorn for that esoteric sport with its spinnakers,
liffs, jibs, jibes and complete reliance on windy drafts.
...
Runyon was reporting his first America's Cup race. It was a switch from his
world of the violence of the fight camps, the crash of the World Series home
runs, the race track whirl of fast horses and whipping riders, and the
body-assaults of football. To the slow moving yacht races he reacted with
impatience. "Watching an America's Cup race," he wrote, "is like watching grass grow."


...
...
...


If we knew what we were doing,
it wouldn't be called research,
would it?

 -- Albert Einstein


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Feb  5 14:26:54 2005
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 09:26:54 EST
Subject: Heel-clicking
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.092654.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:41:43 -0500,  Wilson Gray
<wilson.gray at RCN.COM> writes:

>  I've never heard this term ["heel-clicking"] used in a military context,
Jim. So, feel
>  free to explain. But that reminds me. In the WWII anti-German
>  propaganda of my childhood, the marine-style "jarhead" haircut, the use
>  of a monocle, and clicking one's heels and bowing one's head when
>  shaking hands were all considered to be stereotypically German.

Your problem is that you are too PC, in that you are knee-jerkingly
classifying as stereotype what is actually a widespread piece of Western European
culture.  The Nazi Wermacht had a lot of non-verbal language, e.g. clicking heels,
that descends from the army of Frederick the Great.  But so does the US Army!
Why?  Because of a Prussian officer, Baron Friedrich William von Steuben, who
became Washington's drillmaster at Valley Forge.  Von Steuben trained
Washington's troops until they were as good, if not better, than the Recoats on the
battlefield.  The US Army has used descendants of von Steuben's Prussian drill
ever since.

Don't you remember that coming to Attention, or performing Right Face/Left
Face/About Face, involved an actual clicking together of the heels?

"Heel clicking" therefore is, in my experience at least, a common metaphor
for military formality and/or military authoritarianism, and more generally, a
metaphor for any non-verbal actions that hint at authoritarian actions and
subjection responses.  I might add that the metaphor is frequestly used
facetiously.

Aside on mobile radiotelephones:  you don't seem to be aware of it, but by
the 1950's and perhaps earlier that US had a nationwide CIVILIAN network of what
were called "mobile phones".  My next-door neighbor circa 1960, who was the
circulation manager for the newspaper my father worked on, had one in his car.
It fit easily between the transmission hump and the dashboard---presumably it
drew power from the car's own electrical system so batteries were not
included.  I believe the Bell System operated this service.  It was not widely
popular, due to few channels available and probably high price as well, i.e. the
technology for mass-market mobile phones did not exist until the cell phone was
developed.

The classic story is that Lyndon Johnson while Senate Majority Leader had one
in his limo.  Everett Dirksen then got one and proceeded to place a call from
his limo to Johnson's.  LBJ neatly one-upped Dirksen by saying, "I'm sorry,
Ev, I've got a call on the other line."

      - Jim Landau

overheard yesterday:
female voice: "Dress is business casual".
male voice: "What does that mean?"
female voice again:  "It means you wear shoes"


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Feb  5 14:29:34 2005
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 09:29:34 EST
Subject: BEI MIR BIST DU SCHON
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.092934.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The source of that article on BEI MIR BIST DU SCHON can be found at:

http://www.nydailynews.com/city_life/big_town/v-bigtown_archive/story/249817p-
213731c.html


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Sat Feb  5 15:11:20 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 09:11:20 -0600
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <200502050050.68c42045e9720e@rly-nc05.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.091120.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Looks like an amateur radio call sign to me.. unless Mark's got some
kind of new code going : )

Patti Kurtz

wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote:

>
>What does "WV2PBR" stand for?
>
>-Wilson
>
>On Feb 4, 2005, at 10:52 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>
>
>
>>-- Mark (ex-WV2PBR, circa 1964)
>>[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>>
>>
>>

--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Feb  5 17:11:51 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 11:11:51 -0600
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.111151.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yesterday Wilson Gray reacted quizically to the term "sammies" in a message
from sandwich-researcher Becky Mercuri.  I therefore forwarded his message to
her and now share her reply below with ads-l.

Gerald Cohen

        ******************

> Gerald:
>
> Apparently, Mr.Gray is asking about the use of the term "sammies" in the Houston Chronicle article?
>
> I never even questioned the use, since it's a very common term among people I talk to daily - my own area (Western New York State), food writers, chefs, cooks, sandwich fans, and now, of course, we see it's used and likely common (or at least understood) in Houston.
>
> There is reference to the term in the ADSL archives by Barry Popik: item 020543 dated 02/02/24:   SAMMIE--a sandwich.
>
> I would classify it among the other common terms in use for sandwich, including sangwich and sammich. I say "common" because I hear these terms frequently and interchangeably all over the country. In many cases, I think people use the terms deliberately, often because it was part of their childhood vocabulary which, in turn, relates sandwiches to favorite food - perhaps even "comfort food." Maybe these are terms of endearment for the sandwich, a beloved American food that has certainly assumed a position of prominence in our food culture.
>
> I hope this makes sense to you. I am, quite obviously, not a professional when it comes to words and their use, but I do take careful note of what I hear from the public when I'm researching food.
>
> Best,
> Becky
>


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Sat Feb  5 18:28:34 2005
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 13:28:34 EST
Subject: 18th c. "jam" in a new sense?
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.132834.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I found this description in a local town history.  Apart from it being a 
sense of the word that I didn't find in either the OED online or DARE, note the 
delight the author takes in the concept of 5000 trees coming down at once.

Dale Coye
Wilton, NH

>From Historical Sketches of Wilton New Hampshire 1739-1939, Hamilton S. 
Putnam, ed.  The Wilton Historical Society, 1939
 
JAM  pp. 9-10    Because of the dense forests, settlers were forced to cut 
down thousands of these big trees to make room for public buildings, houses, 
bridges and roads.  It was customary to cut down trees and burn them.  Sometimes 
the early citizens held a “jam.”  All the trees on a certain tract would be 
cut nearly off, then, when all was ready the jam would be started by felling 
one big tree.  The giant timber crashing against others would send the whole 
tract smashing to the ground, with a fearful crash, filling the air with broken 
limbs and shaking the ground for a long distance.
            This method of clearing land eliminated a great deal of chopping 
and was supposed to prevent the lodging of trees. It was a magnificent sight 
to see from one thousand to five thousand of these original “giants of the 
forest” go down at once.  But it was a dangerous business, as a premature fall or 
high wind might start the “jam” before the workmen were ready.  In spite of 
all manner of precautions several of the early settlers were killed by these 
falling trees.
            The trees were left on the ground to dry for several months.  
After selected logs had been removed from the fallen timber area the whole 
section was set on fire.  Dry timber, leaves, and dry mould of centuries burned like 
tinder and within a few minutes the heat from the blazing pile was like that 
of a “blazing oven.”  Great precautions had to be taken to prevent the 
frightful force and fury of the fire from burning beyond the bounds and a strong 
force of men was needed.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb  5 19:18:20 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:18:20 -0500
Subject: Buttered Side (1841,
 1857); Gods send nuts (1860); Oxford Quotations
In-Reply-To: <140.3d6ba46d.2f35da0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.141820.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:13 AM -0500 2/5/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>BUTTERED SIDE
>...
>Oxford has this proverb from 1867. It's like Murphy's  law--with two choices,
>the worst outcome will result. Bread always falls  on the buttered side.
>...
>...
>(NEWSPAPERARHIVE)
>...
>Tuesday, November 23, 1841 _Norwalk,_
>(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:norwalk+buttered+side+AND)
>_Ohio_
>(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+buttered+side+AND)
>   _Huron Reflector _
>(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wUP6BEk4rpmKID/6NLMW2vynnkNBVZv8E8crKPO4KeOd5XSGz6G6XQ==)
>
>...
>...not fall upon the And  always on the BUTTERED SIDE. My misfortunes are
>many.....so  nicely with die but- ter of greasy SIDE into the dirt of despon-
>and leave..
>..
>...

...and given that "a cat always lands on its feet", we derive a
paradox I've come across in various forms...let me check...yup, here
it is in one version, which has the advantage of the fact that the
query is posted from our neighboring town of Cheshire CT.

L
====================

http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/19990914.html
Dear Yahoo!:
Why does buttered bread always land butter-side down? And why do cats
always land on their feet? What would happen if you buttered the back
of a cat and dropped it out of a window?
Gilly
Chesire, Connecticut
Dear Gilly:
Funny you should ask. This question seems to be making the rounds. We
found the answer by doing a slightly advanced search, typing "+toast
+cat" into Alta Vista's search engine. On one web page we learned
that this query is the basis for a grand prize-winning solution to
the elusive puzzle of perpetual motion.

The project description speaks for itself:

"When a cat is dropped, it always lands on its feet, and when toast
is dropped it always lands buttered side down. It was proposed to
strap giant slabs of hot buttered toast to the back of a hundred
tethered cats; the two opposing forces will cause the cats to hover,
spinning inches above the ground. Using the giant buttered toast/cat
array, a high-speed monorail could easily link New York with Chicago."


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Feb  5 20:45:45 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 15:45:45 -0500
Subject: Heel-clicking
In-Reply-To: <E1CxQtm-0006P1-00@mx19.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.154545.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 5, 2005, at 9:26 AM, James A. Landau wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Heel-clicking
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> In a message dated Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:41:43 -0500,  Wilson Gray
> <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> writes:
>
>>  I've never heard this term ["heel-clicking"] used in a military
>> context,
> Jim. So, feel
>>  free to explain. But that reminds me. In the WWII anti-German
>>  propaganda of my childhood, the marine-style "jarhead" haircut, the
>> use
>>  of a monocle, and clicking one's heels and bowing one's head when
>>  shaking hands were all considered to be stereotypically German.
>
> Your problem is that you are too PC, in that you are knee-jerkingly
> classifying as stereotype what is actually a widespread piece of
> Western European
> culture.  The Nazi Wermacht had a lot of non-verbal language, e.g.
> clicking heels,
> that descends from the army of Frederick the Great.  But so does the
> US Army!
> Why?  Because of a Prussian officer, Baron Friedrich William von
> Steuben, who
> became Washington's drillmaster at Valley Forge.  Von Steuben trained
> Washington's troops until they were as good, if not better, than the
> Recoats on the
> battlefield.  The US Army has used descendants of von Steuben's
> Prussian drill
> ever since.
>
> Don't you remember that coming to Attention, or performing Right
> Face/Left
> Face/About Face, involved an actual clicking together of the heels?

Of course. I also noticed immediately, to my great surprise, the very
first time that we practiced "dismounted drill," that the Army's
marching step for parades is - or, at least, was - only a modification
of the high-kicking, so-called "goose step," which was also considered
to be stereotypically Nazi. Our kicks - called "knee-snaps" by the
drill sergeants - were probably only about half as extreme as those of
the Wehrmacht.

I never had occasion to see the Bundeswehr on parade, but, in ordinary
marching, the soldaten were so tightly formed that not even the
American knee-snap would have been possible.

>
> "Heel clicking" therefore is, in my experience at least, a common
> metaphor
> for military formality and/or military authoritarianism, and more
> generally, a
> metaphor for any non-verbal actions that hint at authoritarian actions
> and
> subjection responses.  I might add that the metaphor is frequestly used
> facetiously.

That sounds like what we called "chickenshit." The Army's coat of arms
was said to be crossed floor-buffing machines against a field of
chickenshit. When I first heard this word when I was in high school,
its meaning was "cowardly." But, in The War, it had nothing whatever to
do with that. It meant only the totality of the negative aspects of
military life.

>
> Aside on mobile radiotelephones:  you don't seem to be aware of it,
> but by
> the 1950's and perhaps earlier that US had a nationwide CIVILIAN
> network of what
> were called "mobile phones".  My next-door neighbor circa 1960, who
> was the
> circulation manager for the newspaper my father worked on, had one in
> his car.
> It fit easily between the transmission hump and the
> dashboard---presumably it
> drew power from the car's own electrical system so batteries were not
> included.  I believe the Bell System operated this service.  It was
> not widely
> popular, due to few channels available and probably high price as
> well, i.e. the
> technology for mass-market mobile phones did not exist until the cell
> phone was
> developed.

Back in 1956, a guy offered me a lift across St. Louis's Mill Creek
Valley. (There was only a valley; the creek had been dried up some time
in the 19th Century, when St. Louis was the fourth-largest city in the
country. By weird coincidence, my birthplace, Marshall, was once the
fourth-largest city in Texas. Nowadays, they're both backwaters.) He
had what was called a "car telephone," which he proceeded to
demonstrate to me in all its intricacy. Since I had been just waiting
for the bus and not thumbing, I've always assumed that the guy offered
me a lift specifically so that he could show off his car phone. From
your description, it was the same as, or very similar to, what your
neighbor had.

-Wilson Gray

>
> The classic story is that Lyndon Johnson while Senate Majority Leader
> had one
> in his limo.  Everett Dirksen then got one and proceeded to place a
> call from
> his limo to Johnson's.  LBJ neatly one-upped Dirksen by saying, "I'm
> sorry,
> Ev, I've got a call on the other line."
>
>       - Jim Landau
>
> overheard yesterday:
> female voice: "Dress is business casual".
> male voice: "What does that mean?"
> female voice again:  "It means you wear shoes"
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Feb  5 20:56:33 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:56:33 -0600
Subject: OT: machine translation,
 or how German Schlagsahne wound up as "impact suspect"
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.145633.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Machine translation evidently has a few kinks to iron out before it becomes entirely reliable. A few weeks ago a former student needed help in translating a blueberry pancake recipe into German.

   While helping her I checked Google for various recipes in German and then for the heck of it clicked on "Translate," and one of the ingredients turned up as "impact suspect." I wondered: "What in the world is impact suspect?" so I went back to the original German recipe.  And there was "Schlagsahne" (whipped cream). The machine translation had divided this compound word in the wrong place. Instead of Schlag (a blow) + Sahne (cream) it analyzed the word as "Schlags" + verb "ahne(n) = suspect, have a presentiment of.

    All of which raises the question: Will machine translation ever become as reliable as human translators?

Gerald Cohen


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Feb  5 20:57:21 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 15:57:21 -0500
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <E1CxTTO-0000IL-00@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.155721.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 5, 2005, at 12:11 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American
> Sandwich
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Yesterday Wilson Gray reacted quizically to the term "sammies" in a
> message
> from sandwich-researcher Becky Mercuri.  I therefore forwarded his
> message to
> her and now share her reply below with ads-l.
>
> Gerald Cohen
>
>         ******************
>
>> Gerald:
>>
>> Apparently, Mr.Gray is asking about the use of the term "sammies" in
>> the Houston Chronicle article?
>>
>> I never even questioned the use, since it's a very common term among
>> people I talk to daily - my own area (Western New York State), food
>> writers, chefs, cooks, sandwich fans, and now, of course, we see it's
>> used and likely common (or at least understood) in Houston.
>>
>> There is reference to the term in the ADSL archives by Barry Popik:
>> item 020543 dated 02/02/24:   SAMMIE--a sandwich.
>>
>> I would classify it among the other common terms in use for sandwich,
>> including sangwich and sammich. I say "common" because I hear these
>> terms frequently and interchangeably all over the country. In many
>> cases, I think people use the terms deliberately, often because it
>> was part of their childhood vocabulary which, in turn, relates
>> sandwiches to favorite food - perhaps even "comfort food." Maybe
>> these are terms of endearment for the sandwich, a beloved American
>> food that has certainly assumed a position of prominence in our food
>> culture.
>>
>> I hope this makes sense to you. I am, quite obviously, not a
>> professional when it comes to words and their use, but I do take
>> careful note of what I hear from the public when I'm researching
>> food.
>>
>> Best,
>> Becky
>>
>

The use of "sammie/sammy" as a (nick)name/slang term for "sandwich" is
new to me. Thank you for going to the trouble to explain it to me.

-Wilson Gray


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Feb  5 21:28:04 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:28:04 -0500
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <4a88801240c21cb935f5d0db84c83303@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.162804.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>>I never even questioned the use, since it's a very common term among
>>>people I talk to daily - ....
>>>
>>>I would classify it among the other common terms in use for sandwich,
>>>including sangwich and sammich. ....
>
>The use of "sammie/sammy" as a (nick)name/slang term for "sandwich" is
>new to me.

I surely don't recall ever encountering it either. "Sangwich" and "sammich"
(and "sanwich") are just casual pronunciation variants, I think, but
"sammy" (along with "sangy" and "sanny" and "sandy" and "sandwy" maybe) is
something else: baby-talk? advertiser-talk? diner-lingo?

I wonder what the age and gender distribution of "sammy" users would look like.

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Feb  5 21:43:54 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:43:54 -0500
Subject: OT: machine translation,
 or how German Schlagsahne wound up as "impact suspect"
In-Reply-To: <A7704766F9EE3949B30D5BF6297999A21B86CA@UMR-CMAIL3.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.164354.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>     All of which raises the question: Will machine translation ever
> become as reliable as human translators?

IMHO, yes. And soon (or sooner/already, depending on which program and
which human translators are compared).

But will it become perfect? No.

The same question was asked (and answered) about computerized
grandmaster-level chess not long ago.

Recently I tested an automated dictation system, like what Mark Mandel uses
maybe: after maybe 60 seconds of familiarization with my voice it
transcribed my speech, mostly correctly but with some absurd mistakes ...
very much as human typists do, in fact. Would it be a competitor for the
world's best human transcriptionist? No. Would it rival the ones you'll
actually get? Yes. Next year it'll be better, while the humans stay about
the same.

-- Doug Wilson


From Beckymercuri at AOL.COM  Sun Feb  6 02:04:51 2005
From: Beckymercuri at AOL.COM (Beckymercuri at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:04:51 EST
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.210451.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/5/2005 3:57:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes:
The use of "sammie/sammy" as a (nick)name/slang term for "sandwich" is
new to me. Thank you for going to the trouble to explain it to me.

-Wilson Gray
Mr. Gray, you are entirely welcome. And my thanks to you for pointing out an
alternative spelling.

Becky Mercuri


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb  6 02:22:47 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:22:47 -0500
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <E1CxbnG-0007I2-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.212247.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And you are also welcome. And there's also no need to address me as
"Mr."  Even those whose mail apps automatically supply a virtual "Who's
Who" citation take no offense at being addressed informally.

-Wilson

On Feb 5, 2005, at 9:04 PM, Beckymercuri at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beckymercuri at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Re: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American
> Sandwich
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> In a message dated 2/5/2005 3:57:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes:
> The use of "sammie/sammy" as a (nick)name/slang term for "sandwich" is
> new to me. Thank you for going to the trouble to explain it to me.
>
> -Wilson Gray
> Mr. Gray, you are entirely welcome. And my thanks to you for pointing
> out an
> alternative spelling.
>
> Becky Mercuri
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Feb  6 02:42:17 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:42:17 -0500
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050205161926.02f94230@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.214217.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I asked a couple of younger persons whether they recognized "sammy" =
"sandwich". Initially both said "no" but on second thought one said that he
had seen "raspberry sammy" (some kind of cookie or so) at Bruegger's Bagels
and supposed this "sammy" stood for "sandwich". Maybe he's right. I
remembered then that I had seen that item also, and that I had had some
momentary curiosity as to what its name could mean: my two idle transient
notions had been [1] "samosa" (IIRC the sammy was a little triangular
thing) and [2] the given name "Sammy", and the possibility of "sandwich"
had not entered my so-called mind.

-- Doug Wilson


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb  6 02:45:59 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:45:59 -0500
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
In-Reply-To: <E1Cx60a-0002sy-00@mx20.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.214559.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Har-de-har-har," to coin a phrase.:-) Actually, I'm way too old-school
for that look. In my day, the style of dress of even the gentleman of
leisure was quite conservative. And his 'chine was just a stock model
right off the showroom floor. "Pimping out" oneself and/or one's ride
is a *far* more modern concept. And any self-respecting whore (yes, I
know it's an oxymoron) of those would be embarrassed by having to go
out in public flashing as much flesh as a contemporary middle-school
girl. Not that there's anything wrong with contemporary fashion, of
course.

-Wilson

On Feb 4, 2005, at 11:08 AM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject:      Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I think, that rather than saying he owned the word "pimpmobile", he was
> saying he _owned_ a pimpmobile.  My mental picture of Wilson is now one
> of the "Huggy Bear"/Antonio Fargas sort, or maybe the "gentleman of
> leisure" played by Garret Morris in the SNL sketch, "Fred Garvin, Male
> Prostitute".
>
> Wilson is truly a renaissance man.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society
>> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter
>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:26 PM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
>>
>> I am sorry to
>> report, therefore, that any claim in favor of Wilson's unique
>> ownership of this word for copyright, trademark, or
>> servicemark purposes is likely to be staunchly contested.
>>
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb  6 03:12:16 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 22:12:16 -0500
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
In-Reply-To: <E1Cx41h-0002yb-00@mx11.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.221216.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oh, please, Jon!;-) Sterile pseudo-slang and fake vulgarities designed
to pass censorship have no legs and are totally devoid of soul. Have
you ever heard anyone seriously use "scuzz[whatever] or even that hoary
old chestnut, "scumbag," in real life? Well, "scumbag," perhaps, in its
other meaning of "safe," i.e. "condom."

Of course, you may very well be completely right.

-Wilson

On Feb 4, 2005, at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Scumbag" comes close:
>
> "Isn't he the scuzzcrack who fired you from Yearbook?"..."You fired
> me, remember? Because you're a scuzzcrack!"
>
> JL
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> What is the meaning of "scuzzcrack"? It's not as obvious as that of
> "pimpmobile."
>
> -Wilson
>
> On Feb 3, 2005, at 10:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> The possibility that Wilson may be the inglorious Milton who coined
>> "pimpmobile" reminds me that back on Oct. 22 I reported two
>> occurrences of the word "scuzzcrack" on CBS's "Joan of Arcadia" that
>> evening, a word which had not appeared on the Net or anywhere else
>> that I was aware of.
>>
>> Despite its simultaneous reception in millions of American homes,
>> there is still no evidence of wider usage more than 90 days later.
>>
>> So if Wilson set "pimpmobile" afloat in 1963 without the aid of mass
>> media, we reasonably might not expect it to surface till sometime in
>> the mid 22nd century.
>>
>> A quick Google check uncovers about one quarter million examples of
>> "pimpmobile" on the Web alone. I am sorry to report, therefore, that
>> any claim in favor of Wilson's unique ownership of this word for
>> copyright, trademark, or servicemark purposes is likely to be
>> staunchly contested.
>>
>> JL
>>
>> Wilson Gray wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:38 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> -
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Thanks, Wilson. The military sense must be fairly obscure, since I
>>> just discovered it and it seems to go back to the '50s among Morse
>>> operators. Pretty expressive, though.
>>>
>>> As for "pimpmobile," it seems to have taken a full decade for your
>>> creation to have reached the print media.
>>>
>>> JL
>>
>> You know what gives me the jaws (there's a bit in HDAS about this use
>> of "jaws"; can't recall at the moment whether it has this particular
>> version) about "pimpmobile"? There's simply no way to find out whether
>> I'm really *the* source. It's such an obvious coinage that any number
>> of other people could have come up with it any number of times. It's
>> even possible that the first person to use the word in print coined it
>> independently. Sigh! No 15 minutes of fame for me.
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>>
>>> Wilson Gray wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> -
>>> --------
>>>
>>> When I was a teenager in the 'Fifties in St. Louis,
>>> "dittybop(p)er"/diddybop(per)" was a fairly mild insult that meant
>>> something like "wannabe hipster." There was no verb form.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, when I was in The War, I didn't have occasion to come
>>> into contact with any Morse-code operators. More useless information:
>>> when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it sounds like Morse code
>>> to
>>> the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the equipment available in
>>> the
>>> late '50's.
>>>
>>> -Wilson Gray
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>>> Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -
>>>> -
>>>> -
>>>> --------
>>>>
>>>> Have discovered that besides their tedious old meanings, so familiar
>>>> that I needn't bore you with them, these words have been used in the
>>>> military with the senses "high-speed Morse operator" and "high-speed
>>>> Morse receiver/transmitter." To "dittybop" also means "to transmit
>>>> Morse code at high speed."
>>>>
>>>> Can any of my distinguished colleagues and consultants add anything
>>>> to
>>>> the above from personal experience ?
>>>>
>>>> JL
>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
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>> Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb  6 03:24:20 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 22:24:20 -0500
Subject: "Hawk" (Chicago wind) and DOWN BEAT stories
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.222420.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DOWN BEAT was published in Chicago, so I thought it might be a good place to look for "the Hawk" or "Hawkins"--the name of Chicago's (the Windy City's) wind.

My search stopped at the end of 1941, and I did NOT see "the hawk." I just realized that NYU has DOWN BEAT, so I'll be able to check tomorrow...A book listing Erskine Hawkins' recordings did not mention "the hawk."

DARE has "hawk" from 1946, Mezzrow-Wolfe REALLY BLUES. There's a 1966 citation from black singer Lou Rawls. Four 1970s cites are given, all from "Black Jargon." From the 1981 DARE File: "The hawk--nickname for a cold wind. In the late 30's there was a great trumpet-player, Erskine Hawkins, with a big band; he was called the '20th Century Gabriel'--he was said to blow a 'cold blast.'"

First, Erskine Hawkins barely recorded by the late 30's. Early 40's is almost certainly correct.

Second, there were TWO "hawks." "The Hawk" was Coleman Hawkins, who played sax. Erskine Hawkins played trumpet. I'll try to go through DOWN BEAT (Chicago) 1942-1946 tomorrow and sort eagle-eye for "hawk."

If I find anything, I will beg the Chicago Tribune for the next eight years, and they'll publish it in 2013 without credit. It will probably make the Encyclopedia of Chicago's online edition, where I won't get credit, either.

Maybe there's someone in Chicago named Mike Salovesh who'll apreciate it.

-------------------------------------------------------------

1 October 1939, DOWN BEAT, pg. 4, cols. 1-2 headline:
_The Life and Death of Clarence_
_Smith, Creator of Boogie Woogie_
(Long "Pinetop" article--ed.)

1 November 1939, DOWN BEAT, pg. 6, col. 1:
_Illiterate Sign_
_Painter Coined_
_The Term "Jazz"_
(Too long to type. It involves Boisey James at The Schiller (Cafe), Thirty-first street amd Calumet avenue.
Pg. 6, col. 5:
_"Kelly Not the One"_
The late Henry O. Osgood, in his book _So This Is Jazz_, credits Bert Kelly of Chicago with having (Pg. 7, col. 1--ed.) introducced the term _Jazz band_ in 1915. Kelly himself assumes the honor, but it is significant that the site of Kelly's operations was but a matter of blocks to State Street and the Schiller.
(...)
(col. 4--ed.)
As this issue of the _Digest_ (Literary Digest jazz articles of August 25, 1917 and April 26, 1919--ed.) was distributed, it met the eye of Lucius C. Harper present editor of the Chicago _Defender_ and at that time a member of the city staff. Harper who has an uncommonly (Col. 5--ed.) accurate memory tells me that Jim Europe, recently returned from triumpha abroad, was playing the old Auditorium Hotel in Chicago at the time the article appeared. When Harper showed the bandmaster the _Digest_ article Europe denied having expressed himself as quoted. "My knowledge of it" he told Harper "is that it was started right here in Chicago by old Boisey James at the Schiller."

1 November 1939, DOWN BEAT, pg. 21, col. 4:
It's action like this that caused the term "out of this world" to be introduced into Americans' vocabularies.

15 February 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 12 headline:
_The Saxophone Was Invented by Accident!_
_And Will Marion Cook Was the_
_First ti Use it in Jazz Band_
(1840-1940 history of saxophone--ed.)

15 March 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 18, col. 3:
_Petrillo Now_
_At War With_
_"Pancake" Men_
Chicago--James C. Petrillo's latest stand in his battle to eliminate canned music is aimed at electrical transcription and record turntable ops in the Chicago area. He calls them "pancake turners."
("DJs"--ed.)

1 April 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 6, cols. 1-3:
_"Splinterbugs" Nude Feet Thrill Miami!_
_Name Bands Flop as "Raw Dog"_
_Dancing and Congas Catch on_

1 July 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 5, cols. 1-2:
_"Hog Mouth Was So_
_Powerful He Could_
_Play Your Name"_
By ONAH L. SPENCER

Chicago--Jasper Taylor is the man who first used a washboard in a jazz band.

And he was and still is a good drummer. Starting with W. C. Handy in Memphis in 1913, Taylor came to Chicago in 1916 and made records for Paramount and other labels with Jimmy O'Brien, Jelly Roll Morton and others. In France, during the war, Taylor played drums in the 365th Infantry band. Later, he played with WIll Marion Cook's now-famous combo at the Clef Club, New York.

Later, he played with Dave Peyton's Grand Theater irk here, and also at the Plantation with King Oliver, in 1923.

Here are some of Taylor's prize memories:

"In 1917," says he, "a clarinetist named William Phillips came to Chicago to play John Wreckliffe's orchestra. They called him 'Hog Mouth' because his lips measured an inch and a half in thickness. Because his lips were exception strong it was possible for him to execute unusual tones and sounds, both harsh and beautiful, from his clarinet. So remarkable was his control that he would, or could, call out person's names in an audience on his instrument. He is the originator of the expression _'That's All'_ that was used by bands in the twenties. This term was used to sign off or end a dance. All bands used this at that time. But the remarkable feature was that Phillips not only originated it but expressed these words on his instrument when other depended on verbal expression of the term.

"Phillips also originated the 'jackass bray' in such numbers as _Livery Stable Blues_, etc. It happened thus:

"One day when featured with 'A G. Allen's Minstrel Band,' he was doing a solo out front of the tent show when a farmer's jackass interrupted with a long and loud bray. Phillips replied to the donkey with a clarinet bray that brought laughs and applause. Result, he kept braying in his solo. He played New Orleans and later used his jackass bray in _Livery Stable Blues_."

1 September 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 21, cols. 1-4 headline:
_Eddie Chase, Wax Disc Maestro, Is a Very Busy Man These Days_
(No "disc jockey" for this story about WGN's "Make-Believe Ballroom"--ed.)

15 November 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 4, cols. 1-3 headline:
_"We'll Starve the Mickey Mouse Bands"_

15 February 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. (illegible), cols. 1-2 headline:
_Norvo Unappreciated Genius--Frazier_
_Cusses "Handlers who_
_Screw Things Royally_
(SCREWED + ROYALLY=51,700 Google hits. HDAS?--ed.)

15 March 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 13, cols. 1-2:
_Ask L.A. Radio Stations to_
_Use AFM "Pancake-Turners"_
(...)
The headache will arrive in the form of a contemplated drive by Local 47 to install union musicians as record turners or "pan cake flippers" in Los Angeles radio stations.

1 June 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 1, cols. 3-4 headline:
_Uncle Sam May_
_"Sock It" to Musicians_

1 July 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 6, cols. 4-5 headline:
_Artie Shaw Tales: the "Bingle,"_
_The "Snark," and the "Snorf"_

1 October 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 3, cols. 1-2 headline:
_Lionel Hampton Plans 4 Fiddles,_
_Cello to "Carve Dinner Sessions"_
(HDAS has 1943 for "carve--ed.)

1 October 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 14, col. 1:
ONE OF THE REALLY great records of the months appears under the Will Bradley-Ray McKinley billing, and peculiarly enough contains a generous portion of the orchestrated boogie-woogie figures which this corner on previous occasions has branded as synthetic and unsuitable. But Bradley's "Six Texas Hot Dogs" unquestionably hit the proper groove when they cut _Basin Street Boogie_ on Col. 36340.

1 October 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 17, col. 1:
If you can't get _mad_ and press them out you really are a ten o'clock performer.
("Doubling in Brass" by John O'Donnell: "Compare Chops to Sidewalk, Says John"--ed.)
15 October 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 13, cols. 1-3 headline:
_Andy Kirk Band Sends Me--Frazier_

15 November 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 10, cols. 3-4 cartoon:
JOE BLOW and His Orchestra
(Name on tour bus--ed.)


From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM  Sun Feb  6 03:38:49 2005
From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:38:49 -0600
Subject: "soylent security"
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.213849.0600.>

References on left-leaning US blogs to President Bush's proposed changes
to Social Security have been including the term "Soylent Security".

I suspect the reference is to the movie Soylent Green (in which Soylent
Green turns out not to be made of soy and/or lentils but from surplus
humans), rather than to the novel on which it's based, Harry Harrison's
_Make Room!  Make Room!_, which I believe doesn't include this information.

--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Decluttering: http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb  6 03:39:36 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 22:39:36 -0500
Subject: Sierra Sandwich & Balboa Sandwich
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.223936.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SIERRA SANDWICH--39 Google hits, 3 Google hits
BALBOA SANDWICH--16 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits

On my way from the Lincoln Center library to dining at the Ethiopian restaurant "Queen of Sheba" (10th Avenue and 45th Street), I passed by Strokos Deli Restaurant, 888 10th Avenue (corner 58th Street). It has these sandwiches:


BALBOA SANDWICH...6.50
grilled roast beef w/melted Swiss cheese on crusty garlic bread

SIERRA SANDWICH...6.50
grilled chicken with peppers, onions and pepper jack cheese


(I had posted "Balboa sandwich" in the archives, but not "Sierra sandwich"--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb  6 03:56:22 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 22:56:22 -0500
Subject: "Three boys are no boy at all" (1850)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.225622.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(OXFORD DICTIONARY OF PROVERBS)
_Two BOYS are half a boy, and three boys are no boy at all._
The more boys that help, the less work they do.
c. 1930...

This is too easy.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
Letter concerning the New Canal.
SAMUEL. Boys' and Girls' Magazine and Fireside Companion (1848-1850). Boston: Sep 1, 1850. Vol. 6; p. 78 (3 pages)
Second page:
Uncle Joshua says that if ever he was thankful for anything, it is that you have gone out of town; and Aunt Polly says the same; for "birds of a feather will flock together," and one boy _being_ a boy, two boys half a boy, and three boys no boy at all, she has fairly made out the fact that when you and Barnabas was here there were no boys in Crowville Hollow.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb  6 04:38:28 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 23:38:28 -0500
Subject: "Hawk" (Chicago wind) and DOWN BEAT stories
In-Reply-To: <E1Cxd2D-00001O-00@mx12.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.233828.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"The Hawk" as a name for the wind isn't restricted to Chicago. If
anything, this usage is peculiar to black people in general. Colored
folk all over the country use "The Hawk" when referring to an
uncomfortably cold wind. When I was in grade school (1942-1950) in St.
Louis, we used the expression, "The Hawk talks!" to describe what it's
like on a cold, windy, winter's day. When the occasion demanded it, we
said, "The Hawk is talkin'.'" By the time that I was in high school,
some people said "Hawkins is talkin'," presumably to regain a
near-rhyme like that in the original - in my experience - expression.

In any case, whatever the origin of the term, it was heard everywhere
in my youth, without any reference at all to Chicago. Later, in the
'60's there was a song by Rawls in which he says in the spoken intro,
"The Hawk. The almighty Hawk." I think that he may have, in this song,
connected "The Hawk" and Chicago. I didn't like the song, so I didn't
pay enough attention to it to be able to remember it completely.

-Wilson Gray


On Feb 5, 2005, at 10:24 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      "Hawk" (Chicago wind) and DOWN BEAT stories
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> DOWN BEAT was published in Chicago, so I thought it might be a good
> place to look for "the Hawk" or "Hawkins"--the name of Chicago's (the
> Windy City's) wind.
>
> My search stopped at the end of 1941, and I did NOT see "the hawk." I
> just realized that NYU has DOWN BEAT, so I'll be able to check
> tomorrow...A book listing Erskine Hawkins' recordings did not mention
> "the hawk."
>
> DARE has "hawk" from 1946, Mezzrow-Wolfe REALLY BLUES. There's a 1966
> citation from black singer Lou Rawls. Four 1970s cites are given, all
> from "Black Jargon." From the 1981 DARE File: "The hawk--nickname for
> a cold wind. In the late 30's there was a great trumpet-player,
> Erskine Hawkins, with a big band; he was called the '20th Century
> Gabriel'--he was said to blow a 'cold blast.'"
>
> First, Erskine Hawkins barely recorded by the late 30's. Early 40's is
> almost certainly correct.
>
> Second, there were TWO "hawks." "The Hawk" was Coleman Hawkins, who
> played sax. Erskine Hawkins played trumpet. I'll try to go through
> DOWN BEAT (Chicago) 1942-1946 tomorrow and sort eagle-eye for "hawk."
>
> If I find anything, I will beg the Chicago Tribune for the next eight
> years, and they'll publish it in 2013 without credit. It will probably
> make the Encyclopedia of Chicago's online edition, where I won't get
> credit, either.
>
> Maybe there's someone in Chicago named Mike Salovesh who'll apreciate
> it.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1 October 1939, DOWN BEAT, pg. 4, cols. 1-2 headline:
> _The Life and Death of Clarence_
> _Smith, Creator of Boogie Woogie_
> (Long "Pinetop" article--ed.)
>
> 1 November 1939, DOWN BEAT, pg. 6, col. 1:
> _Illiterate Sign_
> _Painter Coined_
> _The Term "Jazz"_
> (Too long to type. It involves Boisey James at The Schiller (Cafe),
> Thirty-first street amd Calumet avenue.
> Pg. 6, col. 5:
> _"Kelly Not the One"_
> The late Henry O. Osgood, in his book _So This Is Jazz_, credits Bert
> Kelly of Chicago with having (Pg. 7, col. 1--ed.) introducced the term
> _Jazz band_ in 1915. Kelly himself assumes the honor, but it is
> significant that the site of Kelly's operations was but a matter of
> blocks to State Street and the Schiller.
> (...)
> (col. 4--ed.)
> As this issue of the _Digest_ (Literary Digest jazz articles of August
> 25, 1917 and April 26, 1919--ed.) was distributed, it met the eye of
> Lucius C. Harper present editor of the Chicago _Defender_ and at that
> time a member of the city staff. Harper who has an uncommonly (Col.
> 5--ed.) accurate memory tells me that Jim Europe, recently returned
> from triumpha abroad, was playing the old Auditorium Hotel in Chicago
> at the time the article appeared. When Harper showed the bandmaster
> the _Digest_ article Europe denied having expressed himself as quoted.
> "My knowledge of it" he told Harper "is that it was started right here
> in Chicago by old Boisey James at the Schiller."
>
> 1 November 1939, DOWN BEAT, pg. 21, col. 4:
> It's action like this that caused the term "out of this world" to be
> introduced into Americans' vocabularies.
>
> 15 February 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 12 headline:
> _The Saxophone Was Invented by Accident!_
> _And Will Marion Cook Was the_
> _First ti Use it in Jazz Band_
> (1840-1940 history of saxophone--ed.)
>
> 15 March 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 18, col. 3:
> _Petrillo Now_
> _At War With_
> _"Pancake" Men_
> Chicago--James C. Petrillo's latest stand in his battle to eliminate
> canned music is aimed at electrical transcription and record turntable
> ops in the Chicago area. He calls them "pancake turners."
> ("DJs"--ed.)
>
> 1 April 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 6, cols. 1-3:
> _"Splinterbugs" Nude Feet Thrill Miami!_
> _Name Bands Flop as "Raw Dog"_
> _Dancing and Congas Catch on_
>
> 1 July 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 5, cols. 1-2:
> _"Hog Mouth Was So_
> _Powerful He Could_
> _Play Your Name"_
> By ONAH L. SPENCER
>
> Chicago--Jasper Taylor is the man who first used a washboard in a jazz
> band.
>
> And he was and still is a good drummer. Starting with W. C. Handy in
> Memphis in 1913, Taylor came to Chicago in 1916 and made records for
> Paramount and other labels with Jimmy O'Brien, Jelly Roll Morton and
> others. In France, during the war, Taylor played drums in the 365th
> Infantry band. Later, he played with WIll Marion Cook's now-famous
> combo at the Clef Club, New York.
>
> Later, he played with Dave Peyton's Grand Theater irk here, and also
> at the Plantation with King Oliver, in 1923.
>
> Here are some of Taylor's prize memories:
>
> "In 1917," says he, "a clarinetist named William Phillips came to
> Chicago to play John Wreckliffe's orchestra. They called him 'Hog
> Mouth' because his lips measured an inch and a half in thickness.
> Because his lips were exception strong it was possible for him to
> execute unusual tones and sounds, both harsh and beautiful, from his
> clarinet. So remarkable was his control that he would, or could, call
> out person's names in an audience on his instrument. He is the
> originator of the expression _'That's All'_ that was used by bands in
> the twenties. This term was used to sign off or end a dance. All bands
> used this at that time. But the remarkable feature was that Phillips
> not only originated it but expressed these words on his instrument
> when other depended on verbal expression of the term.
>
> "Phillips also originated the 'jackass bray' in such numbers as
> _Livery Stable Blues_, etc. It happened thus:
>
> "One day when featured with 'A G. Allen's Minstrel Band,' he was doing
> a solo out front of the tent show when a farmer's jackass interrupted
> with a long and loud bray. Phillips replied to the donkey with a
> clarinet bray that brought laughs and applause. Result, he kept
> braying in his solo. He played New Orleans and later used his jackass
> bray in _Livery Stable Blues_."
>
> 1 September 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 21, cols. 1-4 headline:
> _Eddie Chase, Wax Disc Maestro, Is a Very Busy Man These Days_
> (No "disc jockey" for this story about WGN's "Make-Believe
> Ballroom"--ed.)
>
> 15 November 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 4, cols. 1-3 headline:
> _"We'll Starve the Mickey Mouse Bands"_
>
> 15 February 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. (illegible), cols. 1-2 headline:
> _Norvo Unappreciated Genius--Frazier_
> _Cusses "Handlers who_
> _Screw Things Royally_
> (SCREWED + ROYALLY=51,700 Google hits. HDAS?--ed.)
>
> 15 March 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 13, cols. 1-2:
> _Ask L.A. Radio Stations to_
> _Use AFM "Pancake-Turners"_
> (...)
> The headache will arrive in the form of a contemplated drive by Local
> 47 to install union musicians as record turners or "pan cake flippers"
> in Los Angeles radio stations.
>
> 1 June 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 1, cols. 3-4 headline:
> _Uncle Sam May_
> _"Sock It" to Musicians_
>
> 1 July 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 6, cols. 4-5 headline:
> _Artie Shaw Tales: the "Bingle,"_
> _The "Snark," and the "Snorf"_
>
> 1 October 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 3, cols. 1-2 headline:
> _Lionel Hampton Plans 4 Fiddles,_
> _Cello to "Carve Dinner Sessions"_
> (HDAS has 1943 for "carve--ed.)
>
> 1 October 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 14, col. 1:
> ONE OF THE REALLY great records of the months appears under the Will
> Bradley-Ray McKinley billing, and peculiarly enough contains a
> generous portion of the orchestrated boogie-woogie figures which this
> corner on previous occasions has branded as synthetic and unsuitable.
> But Bradley's "Six Texas Hot Dogs" unquestionably hit the proper
> groove when they cut _Basin Street Boogie_ on Col. 36340.
>
> 1 October 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 17, col. 1:
> If you can't get _mad_ and press them out you really are a ten o'clock
> performer.
> ("Doubling in Brass" by John O'Donnell: "Compare Chops to Sidewalk,
> Says John"--ed.)
> 15 October 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 13, cols. 1-3 headline:
> _Andy Kirk Band Sends Me--Frazier_
>
> 15 November 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 10, cols. 3-4 cartoon:
> JOE BLOW and His Orchestra
> (Name on tour bus--ed.)
>


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Sun Feb  6 05:20:58 2005
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 23:20:58 -0600
Subject: Cats
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.232058.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, not exactly always.  When I was (probably) about 13 or so, with the
consideration for other creatures common to boys of that age, I wondered if
a cat would fall on its feet if thrown in the air with rotation (axis about
a line through the hip joints.)  That one didn't.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>...

...and given that "a cat always lands on its feet", we derive a
paradox I've come across in various forms...let me check...yup, here
it is in one version, which has the advantage of the fact that the
query is posted from our neighboring town of Cheshire CT.


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Sun Feb  6 05:29:06 2005
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 23:29:06 -0600
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.232906.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I seem to remember "scumbag" as slang for our regular customers when I was a
cop in central Illinois in the early 70s.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>

Oh, please, Jon!;-) Sterile pseudo-slang and fake vulgarities designed
to pass censorship have no legs and are totally devoid of soul. Have
you ever heard anyone seriously use "scuzz[whatever] or even that hoary
old chestnut, "scumbag," in real life? Well, "scumbag," perhaps, in its
other meaning of "safe," i.e. "condom."

Of course, you may very well be completely right.

-Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Feb  6 05:51:15 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 00:51:15 -0500
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050205213425.02f9fd60@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.005115.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The "sammie" which appeared in the ADS-L archives was among a group of New
Zealand words.

Here is a large list of NZ-isms, including "sammie" and other similar
things such as "footie" = "football", "pozzie" = "position", "breckie" =
"breakfast", etc.

http://chris.heathens.co.nz/NZese.html

"Sammie" = "sandwich" fits naturally enough in the NZ list.

If "sammie" = "sandwich" is conventional in the US, there should be
numerous examples in fiction: are there? It's hard to search since mostly
"Sammy" is a name; but I checked several expressions such as "ham sammie",
"have a sammie", etc. at Amazon search-inside and I don't see any "sammie"
= "sandwich". Maybe it's very new in the US?

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb  6 08:44:00 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 03:44:00 EST
Subject: Watching paint dry (1959); The Hawk Talks (1952)
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.034400.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WATCHING PAINT DRY
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_'The  Shrike' Offered at Horseshoe_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=464284862&SrchMode=1&sid=9&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS
=1107673743&clientId=65882)
GEOFFREY WARREN.  Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles,
Calif.: May 19, 1959. p. 28 (1 page)
...
Sitting in attendance at the Horseshoe Stage Theater presentation of Joseph
Kramm's "The Shrike" is as exciting as watching paint dry.
...
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
THE HAWK TALKS
...
Thanks, Wilson.
...
I've tried all sorts of search terms for THE AFRO AMERICAN (Baltimore, but
national coverage), Newspaperarchive, and ProQuest Historical Newspapers. If
Down Beat doesn't come through, we'll have to wait for the complete
digitization  of the Chicago Tribune. It's now at 1958, but in the 1960s and 1970s, "The
Hawk"  was probably discussed at least once and readers probably wrote in.
However,  with ProQuest, that could be this year, or next year...
...
...
(PAPER OF RECORD)
27 December 1952, THE AFRO AMERICAN, pg. 16, col. 4:
(The story is from Chicago--ed.)
Woody Herman led the jazz fields with Duke Ellington in third and fourth
places, respectively, with his "The Hawk Talks" and "Jam With Sam", "Johnny
Hodges", "Castle Rock," fifth, and Illinois Jacquet's "Port of Rico,"  ninth.
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_BAND  BEATS JIVE AS PEARL BAILEY WEDS DRUMMER; London Crowd Jitterbugs at
Ceremony _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=8&did=498931892&SrchMode=1&sid=10&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107677785&clientId=65882)
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago,  Ill.: Nov 20, 1952. p. A1 (1
page)
...
As they came to the door, there was an outburst of jazz music. Outside the
jimmy Walker band was playing Bellson's song, "The Hawk Talks."
...
       18.
_JAZZ  STYLES REVIVED; JAZZ MAESTRO _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=17&did=95811234&SrchMode=1&sid=12&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&
TS=1107678274&clientId=65882)
By JOHN S.  WILSONJoe Covello from Black Star. New York Times  (1857-Current
file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 23, 1956. p. 138 (1 page)
...
COLEMAN HAWKINS: The Hawk Talks (Decca).  The elder statesman of the tenor
saxophone is plagued by strings and steel  guitars throughout most of this disk,
but he manages tgo break through  occasionally with some of his customary
strong, striking statements.
...
...
_The  New Steelworkers; The New Steelworkers-'No Pride in This Dust' _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=119453908&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=P
ROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107675565&clientId=65882)
By BENNETT KREMEN. New York Times  (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan
7, 1973. p. 159 (2 pages)
First page:
The sun isn't up yet and the "Hawk," Chicago's cruel wind, lashes down on
the thousands of workers huddling at bus stops.
...
_CHICAGO'S  RAW NERVE_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=6&did=115510434&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107675180&cl
ientId=65882)
By Dirk Johnson. New  York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 19,
1989. p. SM34 (6  pages)
First page, first paragraph:
IN THE SOUTH SIDE OF CHICAGO, in the lobby of a former union hall, there
hangs an old photograph. Striking stockyard workers, blacks and whites, are
huddled together for solidarity, and perhaps for warmth, against the fierce
winter wind that whips off Lake Michigan, an infamous gale known here as "The
Hawk." Across the photograph is emblazoned the slogan, "Negro and White--Unite  to
Fight!"
...
_Once  Stolid and Big-Shouldered, Now a Cinderella on the Lake_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=7&did=117371465&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VTy
pe=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107674999&clientId=65882)
By DIRK JOHNSON. New York Times  (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 15,
1997. p. A10 (1 page)
...
But not even the infamous winter wind, known here as The Hawk, appears
likely to chill the property market here.
...
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
     _Daily Intelligencer _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WzJJ0cfXWDaKID/6NLMW2ueuV6jcLHxVxx4Q2VSrmvmWSDIoRKdgCkIF+CsZYmrz)  Sunday,
January 12, 1986 _Doylestown,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:doylestown+the+hawk+and+Lake+michigan+and+wind)  _Pennsylvania_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+the+hawk+and+La
ke+michigan+and+wind)      ...a HAWK. THE  HAWK is what THEy call THE WIND
that screams  in off LAKE MICHIGAN.....on Page B 10 Rams meet Bears but  'THE
HAWK' won't fly CHICAGO Barely a  week..
...
     _Daily Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=KVP2nb8FYnqKID/6NLMW2ug58hDIVYU1l4JdXWwSbvhcRaRK/rDzJ0IF+CsZYmrz)  Tuesday, October
29, 1985 _Chicago,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:chicago+the+hawk+is+the+wind+and+Chicago)  _Illinois_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+the+hawk+is+the+wind+and+Chicago)
 ...s last couple weeks.  CHICAGO's mighty HAWK blew off THE lake  AND right
on down.....to find he was tradin' against  THE WIND. THE Sox were ready to
wheel  AND..
...
     _Daily Intelligencer _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WzJJ0cfXWDaKID/6NLMW2ueuV6jcLHxVxx4Q2VSrmvnovlBIiVNHPUIF+CsZYmrz)  Sunday,
January 12, 1986 _Doylestown,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:doylestown+the+hawk+and+Lake+michigan)  _Pennsylvania_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+the+hawk+and+Lake+michig
an)      ...THEy call THE  wind that screams in off LAKE MICHIGAN AND swirls
through Soldier.....was 74. Almost hot enough to roast a HAWK.  THE HAWK is
what..
...
     _Syracuse Herald Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2irVfGke03XYUXnd6keGXZjE20/2yzabr0IF+CsZYmrz)  Monday,
September 30, 1991 _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+the+hawk+and+chicago+and+wind)  _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+the+hawk+and+chicago+and+wi
nd)      ...ORCHARD PARK THE  Bears call it THE HAWK THE WIND coming off
Lake Michigan.....well in his first two seasons with CHICAGO's  Bears He spent
most of  his..


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb  6 10:00:22 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 05:00:22 EST
Subject: Smart cookie (1932)
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.050022.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

_http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=468770_
(http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=468770)

I am looking for the origin of the phrase "smart cookie" My daughter

is 6.5 and wonders why I call her a smart cookie, and not a smart x. I

want to tell her where the phrase started, etc. Thanks in advance.
...
...
The above "smart cookie" question just came up on Google Answers. Someone
just provided a 1948...The "Judas Priest" answer that I antedated by 30 years got
four stars!
Jonathon Green's Cassell Dictionary of Slang gives "1920s+."
.....
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_A LINE O' TYPE OR TWO_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=440350252&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107682690&c
lientId=65882)
R H L. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 7, 1932. p. 10
(1 page)
...
A friend of mine suggested writing to the R.F.C. but these smart cookies
don't give you their address, they don't even give their full names.
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
  _ Sheboygan Press _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=olJOpJH/3rKKID/6NLMW2m2sc/1LLWiHTLCIp+CdG9UjbtL4V7NJxQ==) Thursday, August 03, 1933
_Sheboygan,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:sheboygan+smart+cookie+AND)  _Wisconsin_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+smart+cookie+AND)    ...an international tournament.
And some SMART COOKIE comments tlial London.....just seven days. You see there
were no SMART alecks to offer a lot of Never..


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Feb  6 11:14:26 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 06:14:26 -0500
Subject: Smart cookie (1932)
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.061426.0500.>

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 05:00:22 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>_A LINE O' TYPE OR TWO_
>(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=440350252&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107682690&clientId=65882)
>R H L. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 7, 1932. p. 10
>(1 page)
>...
>A friend of mine suggested writing to the R.F.C. but these smart cookies
>don't give you their address, they don't even give their full names.

"Smart cookie"'s tougher relative goes back to 1921 on N-archive...

1921 _Syracuse Herald_ 7 Jan. 22/4 His feat of stopping the mountainous
Dick O'Brien Tuesday night in two rounds is considered to be better than
noteworthy by the critics. O'Brien is tall, heavy, fairly clever and
generally regarded as a tough cookie.

1922 _Nebraska State Journal_ 25 Jun. B5/2 Nobody in Los Angeles thought
well of Virginia Rappe. She was a tough cookie but very beautiful.


--Ben Zimmer


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb  6 13:55:54 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 08:55:54 -0500
Subject: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"
In-Reply-To: <140.3d6ba46d.2f35da0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.085554.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is anyone able to search American Periodical Series to find an 1855
occurrence there of "politics makes strange bed-fellows"?  I would need
exact source and exact wording.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb  6 14:27:43 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 09:27:43 -0500
Subject: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502060853150.22338-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.092743.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Let me clarify my last request: in addition to the earliest hit on
American Periodical Series for the specific phrase "politics makes strange
bedfellows" or "politics makes strange bed-fellows," I would be interested
in any similar phrases in which "politics" and "strange
bedfellows/bed-fellows" occur near each other in the same article.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Feb  6 14:29:00 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 09:29:00 -0500
Subject: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.092900.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

_National Era_ Nov 8, 1855; VOL. IX, NO. 462  pg. 178

"When Know Nothingism first made its appearance, its principal aim was to
check the aggressions of Popery, and secondarily to curtail the foreign
influence.  But "politics make strange bed-fellows;" and "'tis passing
strange'" to see Sam and the Pope lie down together in perfect peace, as is
now witnessed in Louisiana."

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:55 AM
Subject: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"


> Is anyone able to search American Periodical Series to find an 1855
> occurrence there of "politics makes strange bed-fellows"?  I would need
> exact source and exact wording.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From Beckymercuri at AOL.COM  Sun Feb  6 14:55:32 2005
From: Beckymercuri at AOL.COM (Beckymercuri at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 09:55:32 EST
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.095532.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/5/2005 9:22:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes:
And you are also welcome. And there's also no need to address me as
"Mr."  Even those whose mail apps automatically supply a virtual "Who's
Who" citation take no offense at being addressed informally.

-Wilson
Wilson:

Thank you for being so cordial. I find myself very intimidated when it comes
to participating on ADS-L. I'm very impressed by the credentials you all have,
as well as the fabulous information that is posted here. I read it regularly
and with great interest, especially when food terms are mentioned. Everyone is
to be commended for the hard work that is dedicated to all this research, and
I'm thrilled to see that there is much more attention being paid to food and
foodways.

Best,
Becky


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sun Feb  6 14:58:46 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 06:58:46 -0800
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050206000348.02f84150@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.065846.0800.>

> If "sammie" = "sandwich" is conventional in the US, there should be
> numerous examples in fiction: are there? It's hard to search since mostly
> "Sammy" is a name; but I checked several expressions such as "ham sammie",
> "have a sammie", etc. at Amazon search-inside and I don't see any "sammie"
> = "sandwich". Maybe it's very new in the US?

I recall it from my college days, 1981-85. It was primarily used by one
particular friend of mine (who was from eastern Pennsylvania) with some use
by others who probably picked it up from him.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From Beckymercuri at AOL.COM  Sun Feb  6 15:22:38 2005
From: Beckymercuri at AOL.COM (Beckymercuri at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:22:38 EST
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.102238.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/5/2005 4:27:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, douglas at NB.NET
writes:
The use of "sammie/sammy" as a (nick)name/slang term for "sandwich" is
>new to me.

I surely don't recall ever encountering it either. "Sangwich" and "sammich"
(and "sanwich") are just casual pronunciation variants, I think, but
"sammy" (along with "sangy" and "sanny" and "sandy" and "sandwy" maybe) is
something else: baby-talk? advertiser-talk? diner-lingo?

I wonder what the age and gender distribution of "sammy" users would look
like.

-- Doug Wilson
Doug:

I think you may be correct when you say "baby-talk," which is what I sort of
inferred when I mentioned that the word "sammie" (or "sammy") appeared to be a
term of endearment for a favorite American dish. I've never seen it in diner
lingo.

If this is of any help to you, I've noticed that both males and females, aged
20 to around 60, have used the term. Geographically, I've noted that it's
primarily an east and west coast term - but with people relocating all over the
country, who knows? I was surprised to see it in the Houston Chronicle article,
but perhaps the author was from Pennsylvania, given her hope for a Super Bowl
between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia (and her knowledge of the Primanti
sandwich, a local favorite in Pittsburgh).

Becky


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Feb  6 16:16:10 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 11:16:10 -0500
Subject: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.111610.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred,

Here's an earlier APS one, which fits into your request for not the exact
phrase, but shows the concept was there earlier:

_The New World:  A Weekly Family Journal of Popular Literature, Science, Art
and...._ May 15, 1841; 2, 20; pg 308  **note by SC--this is a six page
article, with no page numbers showing--so I'm only saying pg 308, as that is
what APS lists at the top.  Also, my reading is that this is reprinted from
_Blackwood's Magazine_ and is a novel (called "Ten Thousand a Year" ?).

"Misery makes strange bed-fellows, but surely politics stranger still;  "

SC


----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"


> Let me clarify my last request: in addition to the earliest hit on
> American Periodical Series for the specific phrase "politics makes strange
> bedfellows" or "politics makes strange bed-fellows," I would be interested
> in any similar phrases in which "politics" and "strange
> bedfellows/bed-fellows" occur near each other in the same article.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb  6 17:36:29 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 09:36:29 -0800
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.093629.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Have never encountered "sammie," sandwich, in US till this discussion.

JL

"Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
Subject: Re: "sammies"; was: Becky Mercuri's book American Sandwich
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "sammie" which appeared in the ADS-L archives was among a group of New
Zealand words.

Here is a large list of NZ-isms, including "sammie" and other similar
things such as "footie" = "football", "pozzie" = "position", "breckie" =
"breakfast", etc.

http://chris.heathens.co.nz/NZese.html

"Sammie" = "sandwich" fits naturally enough in the NZ list.

If "sammie" = "sandwich" is conventional in the US, there should be
numerous examples in fiction: are there? It's hard to search since mostly
"Sammy" is a name; but I checked several expressions such as "ham sammie",
"have a sammie", etc. at Amazon search-inside and I don't see any "sammie"
= "sandwich". Maybe it's very new in the US?

-- Doug Wilson


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Feb  6 21:46:32 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 16:46:32 -0500
Subject: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.164632.0500.>

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 09:29:00 -0500, Sam Clements <SClements at NEO.RR.COM> wrote:
>
>From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
>
>> Is anyone able to search American Periodical Series to find an 1855
>> occurrence there of "politics makes strange bed-fellows"?  I would need
>> exact source and exact wording.
>
>_National Era_ Nov 8, 1855; VOL. IX, NO. 462  pg. 178
>
>"When Know Nothingism first made its appearance, its principal aim was to
>check the aggressions of Popery, and secondarily to curtail the foreign
>influence.  But "politics make strange bed-fellows;" and "'tis passing
>strange'" to see Sam and the Pope lie down together in perfect peace, as is
>now witnessed in Louisiana."

_Workingman's Advocate_, Mar 10, 1832, Vol. 3, Iss. 30, p. 1
Verily, politics _do_ make strange bedfellows.


--Ben Zimmer


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb  6 21:55:41 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 16:55:41 -0500
Subject: Disraeli Quote on PQHN
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.165541.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If I can impose upon the list one more time:  Is anyone willing to check
ProQuest Historical Newspapers to find an 1893 Chicago Tribune occurrence
of the Disraeli quote about "my ancestors" (something along the line of my
ancestors were priests in the temple of Solomon when yours were
savages...)?  I would need the exact wording and dating.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Feb  6 22:33:50 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 17:33:50 -0500
Subject: Disraeli Quote on PQHN
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.173350.0500.>

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 16:55:41 -0500, Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
wrote:

>If I can impose upon the list one more time:  Is anyone willing to check
>ProQuest Historical Newspapers to find an 1893 Chicago Tribune occurrence
>of the Disraeli quote about "my ancestors" (something along the line of my
>ancestors were priests in the temple of Solomon when yours were
>savages...)?  I would need the exact wording and dating.

Chicago Daily Tribune, Jan 22, 1893. p. 38
The people out there in the Kentucky County of Virginia resembled at the
time Disraeli's description of their relative forefathers when they had
called him a Jew: "When my ancestors were worshiping in the temple," he
said, "yours were naked barbarians."

But here are earlier cites:

Washington Post, Mar 28, 1878, p. 2
Jewish Times: Lady Rosebery has blue blood than her husband; her family
tree is much more ancient than his. To quote Disraeli, her ancestors were
princes in the temple when Lord Rosebery's ancestors were savages in the
woods.

Atlanta Constitution, Feb 14, 1892, p. 14
It was no idle boast when Disraeli said in the English commons in reply to
the charge that he was a Jew: "Yes, I am a Jew! When the ancestors of the
honorable gentlemen were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine were
priests in the temple!"
[Same wording appears in: Los Angeles Times, Feb 28, 1892, p. 10]

--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb  6 23:59:00 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:59:00 -0500
Subject: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"; No Bad Weather
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.185900.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

_Workingman's Advocate_, Mar 10, 1832, Vol. 3, Iss. 30, p. 1
Verily, politics _do_ make strange bedfellows.

--Ben Zimmer

He's a tough cookie. This is close.


(EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS)
Headline: [Bennington; Judge Rising; Councillor; Manchester];
Paper: Vermont Gazette;   Date: 1831-06-28;   Vol: XLVIII
Pgae 3:
This ambition which besets men, frequently brings them "acquainted with strange bed-fellows," and altho' doubts and darkness rest upon the question, as to the degrees of bitterness and hatred cherished against the friends of the administration, and comparatively, which hates them worst, anti-masons or the aristocratic party--shall we stand on debateable ground, called non-comittal, until we see who else is to be put in nomination.

--------------------------------------------------------------
THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS BAD WEATHER, ONLY WRONG CLOTHES

The Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs, pg. 12, has this from 1980. It's not explained that the original quote is from Ruskin. You think these London fellows would get a quote like this correct.


Display Ad 7 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 6, 1907. p. 5 (1 page):
There is no such thing as bad weather--only different kinds of good weather.

Never be at the mercy of the temperature--no use kicking at the inevitable.

Good cool Summer for horseback exercise.

_Cross English Saddles_


Birmingham Honors David Cox; Sun, Wind and Rain" Burlington Fine Arts Club
Special from Monitor BureauFRANK RUTTER.. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jan 25, 1926. p. 12 (1 page):
John Ruskin once observed to a friend of the present writer, who had injudiciously complained at the downpour through which they were trudging the streets of London, "Bad weather! There is no such thing as bad weather, sir. There are only different sorts of good weather."


VISITOR LAUDS SUNSHINE; Californians Do Not Appreciate Weather, He Says; Defends Climate of England
PHILIP HEWITT-MYRING. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 24, 1927. p. 2 (1 page) :
Social life in England is planned on the assumption that no such thing as bad weather exists.


Other 14 -- No Title
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jan 30, 1928. p. 13 (1 page):
THERE is no such thing as bad weather--there are only different kinds of good weather.--Ruskin.


TO TEST TELEVISION OUTSIDE OF CITIES; RCA Plans Transmitter at Bound Brook, N.J., to Supplement Urban Experiments.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 17, 1929. p. 24 (1 page) :
Mr. Scarr said there was "no such thing as bad weather, just different kinds of good weather."


No Day Need Be Dark and Dreary
Special from Monitor Bureau. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 16, 1931. p. 8 (1 page):
IT HAS been wisely said that there is no such thing as bad weather, but only bad dressing for the weather.


Summer Suits, Smart Accents; Men of the Family Now May Keep Cool With Dignity Tropical Worsteds Evenings in Town
By Helen Johnson Keyes Special from The Christian Science Monitor Bureau. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jul 17, 1935. p. 8 (1 page):
IT WAS a wise man who once said, "There is no such thing as bad weather, only bad dressing for the weather." When this assertion was made, 20 and more years ago, there was a greater amount of bad dressing for the weather than there is today.


SEEN FROM THE Green Vergudo Hills; A PAGE CONDUCTED BY JOHN STEVEN McGROARTY
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 12, 1936. p. H2 (1 page):
For the man sound in body and serene of mind there is no such thing as bad weather; every sky has its beauty, and storms which whip the blood do make it pulse more vigorously.


OUR FLYING FUTURE---ABOVE THE WEATHER
D W TOMLINSON. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 7, 1937. p. I7 (2 pages)
First page:
...it follows that the air and the airplane offer the only potentialities for the future for travel in what seems the single known region where there is no such thing as bad weather.


Starting in the Rain
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: May 28, 1940. p. 12 (1 page):
This was what I had been waiting for, and I responded glibly, "Someone has said there is no such thing as bad weather, there are only good clothes."


Daily Anecdote; Let the Wind Blow!
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Apr 23, 1946. p. 17 (1 page) :
A friend was complaining to Ruskin about the weather.

"Why, Henry," rejoined the genial philosopher, "there's really no such thing as bad weather."

"No?" was the doubtful retort.

"No," replied Ruskin. "Sunshine is delicious, rain is refreshing, wind braces you up, snow is exhilarating--all different kinds of good weather!"


Display Ad 20 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 4, 1950. p. C1 (1 page):
There's no such thing as bad weather in our water repellent gabardine Trooper Coat,...


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb  7 00:34:57 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 19:34:57 -0500
Subject: "One white foot" proverb (1829); "RIsing tide lifts all boats"
 (1957)
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.193457.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"One white foot, buy him; two white feet, try him; three white feet, look well about him; four white feet, go without him"

A horse-dealing proverb.
--OXFORD DICTIONARY OF PROVERBS, pg. 333. The first citation is 1882.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
Character of the ancient Romans.
The Ariel. A Semimonthly Literary and Miscellaneous Gazette (1827-1832). Philadelphia: Nov 28, 1829. Vol. 3, Iss. 16; p. 127 (1 page):
_Marks of a Horse._

One white foot, buy him;
Two white feet, try him;
Three white feet, deny him;
Four white feet and a white nose,
Take off his hide, and give him to the crows.


Poem 1 -- No Title
--Punchinello.. Saturday Evening Post (1839-1885). Philadelphia: Nov 5, 1870. p. 7 (1 page):
RULES AND MAXIMS.--It used to be said in regard to horses:

"One white foot, buy him,
Two white feet, try him,
Three white feet, deny him,
Four white feet and a white nose,
Take off his shoes and give him to the crows."

But the advent of Dexter has changed the sinister rhyme to:

One white foot, spy him,
Two white feet, try him,
Three white feet, buy him,
Four white feet and a white nose,
And a mile in 2-17 he goes.
--_Punchinello_.

--------------------------------------------------------------
A RISING TIDE LIFTS ALL BOATS

The Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs has this from 1963, from President Kennedy.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Display Ad 14 -- No Title
Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 29, 1957. p. 4 (1 page) :
"The Rising Tide Lifts All Boats."
HYATT HY-ROLL BEARINGS


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb  7 01:33:50 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 17:33:50 -0800
Subject: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"; No Bad Weather
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.173350.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

?1794 Anthony Pasquin A Crying Epistle from Britannia to Colonel Mack (London: H. D. Symonds & J. Ridgway, n.d.) 84: "But necessity makes us acquainted with strange bedfellows."

(Within quotes, so presumably already proverbial.)

1800 William Gifford The Baviad and the Maeviad (London: J. Wright, 1800) 117:
I can only say that politics, like misery, "bring a man acquainted with strange bedfeloows."

"Misery acquaints a man with strange bedfellows," is from The Tempest II ii.


JL
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: Re: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"; No Bad Weather
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_Workingman's Advocate_, Mar 10, 1832, Vol. 3, Iss. 30, p. 1
Verily, politics _do_ make strange bedfellows.

--Ben Zimmer

He's a tough cookie. This is close.


(EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS)
Headline: [Bennington; Judge Rising; Councillor; Manchester];
Paper: Vermont Gazette; Date: 1831-06-28; Vol: XLVIII
Pgae 3:
This ambition which besets men, frequently brings them "acquainted with strange bed-fellows," and altho' doubts and darkness rest upon the question, as to the degrees of bitterness and hatred cherished against the friends of the administration, and comparatively, which hates them worst, anti-masons or the aristocratic party--shall we stand on debateable ground, called non-comittal, until we see who else is to be put in nomination.

--------------------------------------------------------------
THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS BAD WEATHER, ONLY WRONG CLOTHES

The Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs, pg. 12, has this from 1980. It's not explained that the original quote is from Ruskin. You think these London fellows would get a quote like this correct.


Display Ad 7 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 6, 1907. p. 5 (1 page):
There is no such thing as bad weather--only different kinds of good weather.

Never be at the mercy of the temperature--no use kicking at the inevitable.

Good cool Summer for horseback exercise.

_Cross English Saddles_


Birmingham Honors David Cox; Sun, Wind and Rain" Burlington Fine Arts Club
Special from Monitor BureauFRANK RUTTER.. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jan 25, 1926. p. 12 (1 page):
John Ruskin once observed to a friend of the present writer, who had injudiciously complained at the downpour through which they were trudging the streets of London, "Bad weather! There is no such thing as bad weather, sir. There are only different sorts of good weather."


VISITOR LAUDS SUNSHINE; Californians Do Not Appreciate Weather, He Says; Defends Climate of England
PHILIP HEWITT-MYRING. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 24, 1927. p. 2 (1 page) :
Social life in England is planned on the assumption that no such thing as bad weather exists.


Other 14 -- No Title
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jan 30, 1928. p. 13 (1 page):
THERE is no such thing as bad weather--there are only different kinds of good weather.--Ruskin.


TO TEST TELEVISION OUTSIDE OF CITIES; RCA Plans Transmitter at Bound Brook, N.J., to Supplement Urban Experiments.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 17, 1929. p. 24 (1 page) :
Mr. Scarr said there was "no such thing as bad weather, just different kinds of good weather."


No Day Need Be Dark and Dreary
Special from Monitor Bureau. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 16, 1931. p. 8 (1 page):
IT HAS been wisely said that there is no such thing as bad weather, but only bad dressing for the weather.


Summer Suits, Smart Accents; Men of the Family Now May Keep Cool With Dignity Tropical Worsteds Evenings in Town
By Helen Johnson Keyes Special from The Christian Science Monitor Bureau. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jul 17, 1935. p. 8 (1 page):
IT WAS a wise man who once said, "There is no such thing as bad weather, only bad dressing for the weather." When this assertion was made, 20 and more years ago, there was a greater amount of bad dressing for the weather than there is today.


SEEN FROM THE Green Vergudo Hills; A PAGE CONDUCTED BY JOHN STEVEN McGROARTY
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 12, 1936. p. H2 (1 page):
For the man sound in body and serene of mind there is no such thing as bad weather; every sky has its beauty, and storms which whip the blood do make it pulse more vigorously.


OUR FLYING FUTURE---ABOVE THE WEATHER
D W TOMLINSON. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 7, 1937. p. I7 (2 pages)
First page:
...it follows that the air and the airplane offer the only potentialities for the future for travel in what seems the single known region where there is no such thing as bad weather.


Starting in the Rain
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: May 28, 1940. p. 12 (1 page):
This was what I had been waiting for, and I responded glibly, "Someone has said there is no such thing as bad weather, there are only good clothes."


Daily Anecdote; Let the Wind Blow!
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Apr 23, 1946. p. 17 (1 page) :
A friend was complaining to Ruskin about the weather.

"Why, Henry," rejoined the genial philosopher, "there's really no such thing as bad weather."

"No?" was the doubtful retort.

"No," replied Ruskin. "Sunshine is delicious, rain is refreshing, wind braces you up, snow is exhilarating--all different kinds of good weather!"


Display Ad 20 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 4, 1950. p. C1 (1 page):
There's no such thing as bad weather in our water repellent gabardine Trooper Coat,...

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb  7 03:29:04 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 22:29:04 -0500
Subject: Watching paint dry (1959); The Hawk Talks (1952)
In-Reply-To: <E1Cxi1Z-0005o5-00@mx12.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.222904.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 6, 2005, at 3:44 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Watching paint dry (1959); The Hawk Talks (1952)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> WATCHING PAINT DRY
> ...
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
> ...
> _'The  Shrike' Offered at Horseshoe_
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=0&did=464284862&SrchMode=1&sid=9&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=
> 309&VName=HNP&TS
> =1107673743&clientId=65882)
> GEOFFREY WARREN.  Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles,
> Calif.: May 19, 1959. p. 28 (1 page)
> ...
> Sitting in attendance at the Horseshoe Stage Theater presentation of
> Joseph
> Kramm's "The Shrike" is as exciting as watching paint dry.
> ...
> ...
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> --------------------------------------------------------
> THE HAWK TALKS
> ...
> Thanks, Wilson.
> ...
> I've tried all sorts of search terms for THE AFRO AMERICAN (Baltimore,
> but
> national coverage), Newspaperarchive, and ProQuest Historical
> Newspapers. If
> Down Beat doesn't come through, we'll have to wait for the complete
> digitization  of the Chicago Tribune. It's now at 1958, but in the
> 1960s and 1970s, "The
> Hawk"  was probably discussed at least once and readers probably wrote
> in.
> However,  with ProQuest, that could be this year, or next year...
> ...
> ...
> (PAPER OF RECORD)
> 27 December 1952, THE AFRO AMERICAN, pg. 16, col. 4:
> (The story is from Chicago--ed.)
> Woody Herman led the jazz fields with Duke Ellington in third and
> fourth
> places, respectively, with his "The Hawk Talks" and "Jam With Sam",
> "Johnny
> Hodges", "Castle Rock," fifth, and Illinois Jacquet's "Port of Rico,"
> ninth.

Now, that's odd. I'm familiar with the names and the music of everyone
on this list, but the only title that I definitely recognize is "Castle
Rock" by Johnny Hodges. I bought a copy of it when I was a second-year
student in high school. At the time, I fondly imagined that my future
career would be that of jazz alto [saek'sOf at nist].

And I'm really, really amazed by the number of citations in the
material quoted below that make it appear that the use of the term,
"The Hawk," as the name of a cold winter wind is restricted to, or a
peculiarity of, Chicago. I've been to Chicago only once and that was
during the summer. So, the subject of the wind didn't come up.

-Wilson Gray

> ...
> ...
> ...
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
> ...
> _BAND  BEATS JIVE AS PEARL BAILEY WEDS DRUMMER; London Crowd
> Jitterbugs at
> Ceremony _
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=8&did=498931892&SrchMode=1&sid=10&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT
> =309&VName=HNP&TS=1107677785&clientId=65882)
> Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago,  Ill.: Nov 20, 1952. p. A1
> (1
> page)
> ...
> As they came to the door, there was an outburst of jazz music. Outside
> the
> jimmy Walker band was playing Bellson's song, "The Hawk Talks."
> ...
>        18.
> _JAZZ  STYLES REVIVED; JAZZ MAESTRO _
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=17&did=95811234&SrchMode=1&sid=12&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT
> =309&VName=HNP&
> TS=1107678274&clientId=65882)
> By JOHN S.  WILSONJoe Covello from Black Star. New York Times
> (1857-Current
> file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 23, 1956. p. 138 (1 page)
> ...
> COLEMAN HAWKINS: The Hawk Talks (Decca).  The elder statesman of the
> tenor
> saxophone is plagued by strings and steel  guitars throughout most of
> this disk,
> but he manages tgo break through  occasionally with some of his
> customary
> strong, striking statements.

COLEMAN HAWKINS: The Hawk Talks ... "[t]he elder statesman of the tenor
saxophone ..."

and, FWIW, there was also

LESTER YOUNG, who recorded Lester Leaps In and was known as "the
president of the tenor saxophone," later shortened  to "prez."

-Wilson Gray


> ...
> ...
> _The  New Steelworkers; The New Steelworkers-'No Pride in This Dust' _
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=3&did=119453908&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=P
> ROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107675565&clientId=65882)
> By BENNETT KREMEN. New York Times  (1857-Current file). New York,
> N.Y.: Jan
> 7, 1973. p. 159 (2 pages)
> First page:
> The sun isn't up yet and the "Hawk," Chicago's cruel wind, lashes down
> on
> the thousands of workers huddling at bus stops.
> ...
> _CHICAGO'S  RAW NERVE_
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=6&did=115510434&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=
> 309&VName=HNP&TS=1107675180&cl
> ientId=65882)
> By Dirk Johnson. New  York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.:
> Feb 19,
> 1989. p. SM34 (6  pages)
> First page, first paragraph:
> IN THE SOUTH SIDE OF CHICAGO, in the lobby of a former union hall,
> there
> hangs an old photograph. Striking stockyard workers, blacks and
> whites, are
> huddled together for solidarity, and perhaps for warmth, against the
> fierce
> winter wind that whips off Lake Michigan, an infamous gale known here
> as "The
> Hawk." Across the photograph is emblazoned the slogan, "Negro and
> White--Unite  to
> Fight!"
> ...
> _Once  Stolid and Big-Shouldered, Now a Cinderella on the Lake_
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=7&did=117371465&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VTy
> pe=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107674999&clientId=65882)
> By DIRK JOHNSON. New York Times  (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.:
> Jul 15,
> 1997. p. A10 (1 page)
> ...
> But not even the infamous winter wind, known here as The Hawk, appears
> likely to chill the property market here.
> ...
> ...
> ...
> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
> ...
>      _Daily Intelligencer _
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WzJJ0cfXWDaKID/
> 6NLMW2ueuV6jcLHxVxx4Q2VSrmvmWSDIoRKdgCkIF+CsZYmrz)  Sunday,
> January 12, 1986 _Doylestown,_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:
> doylestown+the+hawk+and+Lake+michigan+and+wind)  _Pennsylvania_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:
> pennsylvania+the+hawk+and+La
> ke+michigan+and+wind)      ...a HAWK. THE  HAWK is what THEy call THE
> WIND
> that screams  in off LAKE MICHIGAN.....on Page B 10 Rams meet Bears
> but  'THE
> HAWK' won't fly CHICAGO Barely a  week..
> ...
>      _Daily Herald _
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=KVP2nb8FYnqKID/
> 6NLMW2ug58hDIVYU1l4JdXWwSbvhcRaRK/rDzJ0IF+CsZYmrz)  Tuesday, October
> 29, 1985 _Chicago,_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:
> chicago+the+hawk+is+the+wind+and+Chicago)  _Illinois_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:
> illinois+the+hawk+is+the+wind+and+Chicago)
>  ...s last couple weeks.  CHICAGO's mighty HAWK blew off THE lake  AND
> right
> on down.....to find he was tradin' against  THE WIND. THE Sox were
> ready to
> wheel  AND..
> ...
>      _Daily Intelligencer _
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WzJJ0cfXWDaKID/
> 6NLMW2ueuV6jcLHxVxx4Q2VSrmvnovlBIiVNHPUIF+CsZYmrz)  Sunday,
> January 12, 1986 _Doylestown,_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:
> doylestown+the+hawk+and+Lake+michigan)  _Pennsylvania_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:
> pennsylvania+the+hawk+and+Lake+michig
> an)      ...THEy call THE  wind that screams in off LAKE MICHIGAN AND
> swirls
> through Soldier.....was 74. Almost hot enough to roast a HAWK.  THE
> HAWK is
> what..
> ...
>      _Syracuse Herald Journal _
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/
> 6NLMW2irVfGke03XYUXnd6keGXZjE20/2yzabr0IF+CsZYmrz)  Monday,
> September 30, 1991 _Syracuse,_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:
> syracuse+the+hawk+and+chicago+and+wind)  _New York_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:
> new_york+the+hawk+and+chicago+and+wi
> nd)      ...ORCHARD PARK THE  Bears call it THE HAWK THE WIND coming
> off
> Lake Michigan.....well in his first two seasons with CHICAGO's  Bears
> He spent
> most of  his..
>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Feb  7 05:16:51 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 00:16:51 -0500
Subject: Disraeli Quote on PQHN
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.001651.0500.>

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 17:33:50 -0500, I wrote:

>On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 16:55:41 -0500, Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
>wrote:
>
>>If I can impose upon the list one more time:  Is anyone willing to check
>>ProQuest Historical Newspapers to find an 1893 Chicago Tribune occurrence
>>of the Disraeli quote about "my ancestors" (something along the line of my
>>ancestors were priests in the temple of Solomon when yours were
>>savages...)?  I would need the exact wording and dating.
>
>Chicago Daily Tribune, Jan 22, 1893. p. 38
>The people out there in the Kentucky County of Virginia resembled at the
>time Disraeli's description of their relative forefathers when they had
>called him a Jew: "When my ancestors were worshiping in the temple," he
>said, "yours were naked barbarians."
>
>But here are earlier cites:
>
>Washington Post, Mar 28, 1878, p. 2
>Jewish Times: Lady Rosebery has blue blood than her husband; her family
>tree is much more ancient than his. To quote Disraeli, her ancestors were
>princes in the temple when Lord Rosebery's ancestors were savages in the
>woods.
[snip]

(For "blue" in the above quote, read "bluer".)

I also see references to a very similar quote supposedly made by Senator
Judah Peter Benjamin of Louisiana, some time prior to the Civil War
(during which time he was Secretary of War for the Confederacy).

----------
http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~mendele/vol03/vol03.234
Mendele: Yiddish literature and language
Vol. 3.234, February 13, 1994

Date: Sat Feb 12 14:32:59 1994
From: BB7M000 <BB7M at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Benjamin said it first

Judah P. Benjamin did say in the US Senate prior to 1861 in a reply
to another senator," The gentleman will please remember that when
his half-civilized ancestors were hunting the wild boar in the
forests of Silesia, mine were the princes of the earth". This
putdown may or not have carried across the Atlantic, but probably
the seminary quotation was the reply made by Benjamin Disraeli (1801
-1881) in the House of Commons when taunted by Irish Daniel
O'Connel, "Yes, I am a Jew, and when the ancestors of the right
honorable gentleman were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine
were priests in the temple of Solomon". George Bernard Shaw was
certainly aware of that putdown, and adopted it in his play "Caesar
and Cleopatra". Viper-tounged, mini-brained Henry Mencken(1880-1956)
probably saw the play and adapted it to his anti-semitic insult. Vi
a tzibeleh.

Hirsh Schipper (I have not checked Caesar and Cleopatra)
----------

The earliest mention I've found on Proquest for the Judah Benjamin story
is in a New York Times "Queries and Answers" column of July 10, 1921, in a
response to a query about the Disraeli quote.  An earlier source is given
for the Judah Benjamin version: "Reminiscences of Sixty Years in the
National Metropolis" by Benjamin Perley Poore (Philadelphia, 1886).


--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Feb  7 06:47:09 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 01:47:09 -0500
Subject: Disraeli Quote on PQHN
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.014709.0500.>

Apologies for following up on my own post again...

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 00:16:51 -0500, I wrote:

>I also see references to a very similar quote supposedly made by Senator
>Judah Peter Benjamin of Louisiana, some time prior to the Civil War
>(during which time he was Secretary of War for the Confederacy).

I found this on Amazon:

----------
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0029099110
_Judah P. Benjamin_ by Eli Evans (Free Press, 1988), pp. 96-7

Once, during the debate on the extension of slavery into Kansas, Senator
Ben Wade of Ohio goaded Benjamin [referring to "Israelites with Egyptian
principles"]. ...
There is some debate as to Benjamin's answer, and historians differ as to
whether the remarks attributable to Benjamin were actually uttered by him,
but the legend of his answer exists and should be recorded. "It is true
that I am a Jew," he is reported to have said, "and when my ancestors were
receiving their Ten Commandments from the immediate hand of Deity, amidst
the thunderings and lightnings of Mount Sinai, the ancestors of my
opponent were herding swine in the forests of Great Britain."
Historians provide at least four different versions of when, where, and to
whom that retort was made. Disraeli is also said to have made a similar
one. The quote cannot be verified, but the statement remains a part of the
legend of Judah P. Benjamin, even though it indicates an uncharacteristic
acknowledgement in public of his Jewishness.
----------

There's also a footnote with references to the differing accounts of the
supposed comment.


--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb  7 06:59:53 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 01:59:53 EST
Subject: Flamboozled; Dipsy-doodle; Zoot Suit; 29th Century Gabriel (1942)
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.015953.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

20TH CENTURY GABRIEL (ERSKINE HAWKINS)
...
I got tired and depressed and didn't read much of DOWN BEAT. No "hawk." I
only wish I could help Chicago more.
...
...
1 January 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 14, col. 3 illustration:
_Gabriel Drew Him_
(Illustration)
Lucky Millinder, the sepia band leader who has made a nice comeback in  1941,
is caricatured by fellow band leader Erskine Hawkins, the 20th Century
Gabriel. Like Xavier Cugat, Hawkins wields a mean pencil in addition to blowing  a
hot horn. <illinder, with Sister Rosetta Tharpe as an added attraction, has
been playing the Savoy Ballroom, New York.
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
FLAMBOOZLED
...
The HDAS has 1956, probably from FLA(BBERGAST( + (BAM)BOOZLED.
...
I would think it's FLAM (as in flim-flam) + bamboozled.
...
...
1 January 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 5, col. 1:
_"I Was Flamboozled!"_
_Says Ballroom Op,_
_After Losing 20 G's_
...
Chicago--"I think I was flamboozled," said Mrs. W. L. Stearns, former
manager of the Palladium ballroom here, after she and her husband has just  dropped
$20,000 in the operation of the mammoth ballroom.
...
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
DIPSY-DOODLE
...
The HDAS has various citations from 1943, 1951, 1954, 1983.
...
...
15 June 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 4, col. 5:
Ben Pollack came out of the east with a new slang expression,
"_dipsydoodlers_," referring to those location jobs on which the musicians are  expected to
dig into their own pockets for office commissions, radio line  charges and,
frequently, a direct bonus or premium to the operator  himself.
...
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
ZOOT SUIT
...
15 March 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 12, col. 4:
_Pot Wants an "Au Reet" Zoot Suit_
(Photo--ed.)
You're not hep these days unless you're wearing a zoot suit, is the report
among swing musicians today. Pot, Pan and Skillet, currently touring with the
Duke Ellington ork, are knocking themselves out on a "Zoot Suit" sketch,
written  by Sid Kuller. The trio introduced the sketch calling for a "zoot suit
with a  reat pleat, a sadistic cape with a murderistic drape, shoulders extended
solid  as intended, streamlined lining and drape-lined pockets, 53 at the knee
and 7  inch cuffs." Skillet and Pan are shown here carefully measuring the
tape on Pot  so he gives his directions for the "ample 53."
...
...
1 April 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 4 ad:
KAY KYSER AND HIS ORCHESTRA
Latest Columbia Recordings
"A ZOOT SUIT"
(FOR MY SUNDAY GAL)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb  7 07:29:47 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 02:29:47 EST
Subject: Gaper's Block (1964)
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.022947.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

_http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chicago/chi-0502060339feb06,1,534741
9.story?coll=chi-newslocalchicago-hed_
(http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chicago/chi-0502060339feb06,1,5347419.story?coll=chi-newslocalchicago-hed)
...
How to create a gapers' block

Published February 6,  2005

STREETERVILLE -- A sculpture featuring a car and trailer that  appear to have
burrowed out of the ground was installed last week in the front  plaza of the
Museum of Contemporary Art.
...
...
...
"Gaper's block" is not in DARE. It's not in the digitized Chicago Tribune
through 1958, but it appears in the digitized Chicago Herald in 1964, FWIW, it's
 another Chicago term I'm looking for. There is a Chicago blog by this  name.
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
_Traffic  Talk_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=120303416&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107760493&clientId=
65882)
By William Safire. New  York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb
28, 1982. p. SM9 (2  pages)
First page:
Such obstructive gaping is called a _gaper's block_ in Denver.
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
     _Great Bend Daily Tribune _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WSgtrs8BeYeKID/6NLMW2ksQtBiZB3MKmWxjmn7howdq37n7eymwXEIF+CsZYmrz)
Monday, April 17, 1972 _Great Bend,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:great_bend+gaper)  _Kansas_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:kansas+gaper)
...on all ex- pressways They  include the gaper s BLOCK This phenomenon
occurs..

...
_Gettysburg Times _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=qfOSkbCfQu2KID/6NLMW2u4CJdPTzh8JJKATKtdUZyvHiBf35r4+zA==)  Tuesday, April 18, 1972
_Gettysburg,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:gettysburg+gaper)  _Pennsylvania_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+gaper)
...on all ex- pressways.  GAPER'S BLOCK They include the GAPER'S
ilock.....Striders1 A team of Kim Diane Donna Gaper Crawling Cop Face  Chicago Drivers..

...
_Portsmouth Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2gPTCfGrowNbRRP71FGuZYhn6bmKDYv9NUIF+CsZYmrz)  Tuesday, April 18,
1972 _Portsmouth,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:portsmouth+gaper)  _New Hampshire_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_hampshire+gaper)
...GAPER'S  BLOCK' Snarls Chicago Traffic.....on all expressways. They
include  the GAPER'S i BLOCK. This phenomenon  occurs..

...
_Stevens Point Daily Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2grWY8g6q2N56pvfyUPj4SEx+u8nrROkXkIF+CsZYmrz)  Tuesday,
April 18, 1972 _Stevens Point,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:stevens_point+gaper)  _Wisconsin_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+gaper)
...on all expressways. They  include the GAPER'S BLOCK. This phenomenon
occurs..

...
_Sheboygan Press _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2jcGrluF/b58lyRTiZg0KfD6srKHKMWzU0IF+CsZYmrz)  Saturday, August 07,
1971 _Sheboygan,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:sheboygan+gaper)  _Wisconsin_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+gaper)
...Santa Claus in August  caused a small "GAPER'S BLOCK" Thursday night on
the..

...
_Journal Tribune _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ONKPmHWqWNiKID/6NLMW2ruYKlQDWSmNANcjjggtKvwlGOXef9wrOEIF+CsZYmrz)  Tuesday, April 18,
1972 _Marysville,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:marysville+gaper)  _Ohio_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+gaper)
...on all expressways. They  include the GAPER'S BLOCK. This phenomenon
occurs.....city  of Kompong Trach are trying to BLOCK any attempt by troops of the
North..

...
_Fond Du Lac Reporter _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2gG9HM8fjLExYCQi52ltJOC1Mq489n0gpUIF+CsZYmrz)  Tuesday, April
18, 1972 _Fond Du Lac,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:fond_du_lac+gaper)  _Wisconsin_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+gaper)
...on all expressways. They  include the GAPER'S BLOCK. This phenomenon
occurs..

...
     _Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=KVP2nb8FYnqKID/6NLMW2jFom0sZsRopWYB/ff/UGE59n1ouyEeVe0IF+CsZYmrz)  Friday, February 16,
1968 _Chicago,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:chicago+gapers+block+AND)  _Illinois_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+gapers+block+AND)
...rush hour. McGann  said a long GAPERS' BLOCK was caused. Out
directing.....two railroad crossings within half a BLOCK from  each other create added..

...

...
     _Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=KVP2nb8FYnqKID/6NLMW2naH2ihaJHuZo6Rk/jzcZ4yoKbjI4auPDEIF+CsZYmrz)  Friday, September 20,
1968 _Chicago,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:chicago+gapers+block+AND)  _Illinois_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+gapers+block+AND)
...the rest of the gang.  Not to mention a GAPERS' BLOCK or two...or that
dribble..

...

     _Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=lrCUoQlefzKKID/6NLMW2rdMsm1Rxbah2V1CY9NEKxsxodwgGhsRMkIF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday, July 16, 1964
_Chicago,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:chicago+gapers+block+AND)  _Illinois_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+gapers+block+AND)
...this you may save a  pile or lessen the GAPERS BLOCK which can cause far
more..

...

     _Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=KVP2nb8FYnqKID/6NLMW2lgUAQPMaj1X0z3vXnXljQ4Ro/YfKFXdiUIF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday, September 22,
1966  _Chicago,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:chicago+gapers+block+AND)  _Illinois_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+gapers+block+AND)
...the rest of the gang.  Not to mention a GAPERS' BLOCK or two or that
dribble  oi..

...

     _Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=KVP2nb8FYnqKID/6NLMW2naH2ihaJHuZo6Rk/jzcZ4ydmV+TO3BqkEIF+CsZYmrz)  Friday, September 20,
1968 _Chicago,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:chicago+gapers+block+AND)  _Illinois_ (http:/
/www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+gapers+block+AND)
...the rest of the gang.  Not to mention a GAPERS' BLOCK or two...or that
dribble..

...

     _Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=KVP2nb8FYnqKID/6NLMW2p/Yh5RFgEmHqgHiv7UNQP2k7fTcognJ/UIF+CsZYmrz)  Friday, May 24, 1968
_Chicago,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:chicago+gapers+block+AND)  _Illinois_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+gapers+block+AND)
...Saturday afternoon  strollers formed a GAPERS' BLOCK as a discussion in
deep..

...

     _Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=KVP2nb8FYnqKID/6NLMW2lgUAQPMaj1X0z3vXnXljQ59OJPlYDNyVEIF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday, September 22,
1966  _Chicago,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:chicago+gapers+block+AND)  _Illinois_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+gapers+block+AND)      ...the rest of the gang.  Not to
mention a GAPERS' BLOCK or two...or that  dribble..


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb  7 07:54:05 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 02:54:05 EST
Subject: Thai Suki, Son in Law Tofu, Three Musketeers
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.025405.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT?--
Borobudur Cafe (Indonesian), 129 East 4th Street (between 1st and 2nd
Avenue). It was almost closed. I just had the Gado-Gado. There aren't too many
Indonesian places around. Nice and cheap.
Serendipity 3, East 60th Street between Third and Second Avenues. It wasn't
too busy after the Super Bowl. It's only three blocks away, but it's always
filled with tourists. I finally had the Frrrrozen Hot Chocolate and I'm gonna
be  up all damn night.
...
...
PUKIK, 71 First Avenue, is a new restaurant that I'll probably try on
Monday. It has an interesting menu. I'll probably get the "Son in Law Tofu,"
although by law no one can marry me.
...
...
THREE MUSKETEERS
Chayote, bok shoy and shitake mushrrom w. garlic sauce.
...
THAI SUKI
Glass noodle and vegetables w. red garlic chili sauce.
...
SON IN LAW TOFU
Crusted soft tofu w. sweet and sour tamarind sauce.
...
...
THAI SUKI--2,340 Google hits, 6 Google Groups hits
...
(GOOGLE)
...
_RESTAURANT WONDERLAND | COCA RESTAURANT_
(http://www.wonderland.to/pc/english/coca.html)
... 44years Loved by 9 nations Since it was opened the first COCA  Restaurant
in
Bangkok,Capital of Thailand in 1957, COCA has been famous for  "Thai-suki"
and "COCA ...
www.wonderland.to/pc/english/coca.html - 10k - _Cached_
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Tp4e0qWM-TcJ:www.wonderland.to/pc/english/coca.html+"thai+suki
"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.wonderland.to/pc/english/coca.html)
...
...
SON IN LAW TOFU--11 Google hits,l 0 Google Groups hits
...
(GOOGLE)
...

_Menus - Reangthai  Restaurant - Thai Cuisine - Tallahassee, Florida_
(http://www.reangthai.com/menu.cfm)
... Tofu with Black bean sauce. Son-in-law  Tofu Fried tofu topped with sweet
and mildly
spicy sauce and ground  peanuts. Spicy Tofu With vegetables in choo chee
sauce ...
www.reangthai.com/menu.cfm - 22k - _Cached_
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:vOWKVTmxHw8J:www.reangthai.com/menu.cfm+"son+in+law+tofu"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)
 - _Similar pages_
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.reangthai.com/menu.cfm)
...
_Crain's New York Business news, lists, rankings, directory and  ..._
(http://www.newyorkbusiness.com/article.cms?a=f&articleId=22316)
... 20. The owners of Highline and  Peep will showcase the Thai vegetarian
cuisine
of chef Thavatchai  Waraloardgoson, including "Son in Law Tofu.".  ...
www.newyorkbusiness.com/  article.cms?a=f&articleId=22316 - 34k - _Cached_
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:HWy5WIUL_0YJ:www.newyorkbusiness.com/articl
e.cms?a=f&articleId=22316+"son+in+law+tofu"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar
pages_
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.newyorkbusiness.com/article.cms?a=f&articleId=22316)
...
_The Stanford Daily Online Edition_
(http://daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page=content&id=5864&repository=0001_article)
... Janta (mediocre Indian up the street) and certainly not with  white
collar Spago
(though it might be fun to go in there and demand Crab  Balls or Son-In-Law
Tofu ...
daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page=content&  id=5864&repository=0001_article - 24k
- Supplemental Result - _Cached_
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:yaecftNP-5QJ:daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page=content&id=5864&repository=0001_article+"s
on+in+law+tofu"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page=content&id=5864&
repository=0001_article)


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Feb  7 10:35:20 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:35:20 +0000
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <200502042332.j14NWFKa019149@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.103520.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 4/2/05 11:17 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
> In addition to its other meanings, I know it as a synonym of "cunt,"
> which, though occasionally used, doesn't have a lot of traction amongst
> the bruz and cuz, for some random reason.
>
> -Wilson
>
>From which we get 'play stink-finger', presumably.

Conversely, there is a porn video series featuring simultaneous vaginal and
anal penetration titled 'One in the Pink, One in the Stink'.

-Neil Crawford



> On Feb 4, 2005, at 2:23 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>> Double-entendre?  No.  I can't even think of one, in fact.  It's
>> definitely a
>> single entendre.
>>
>> -doug
>>
>> In a message dated 1/21/2005 8:52:59 AM Central Standard Time,
>> wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes:
>> Is there a double-entendre in there for you, doug? For me there is.
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>> On Jan 21, 2005, at 2:02 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM>
>>> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Anecdote Alert: "Stank" has been my body-odor noun of choice at least
>>> since
>>> high school.
>>>
>>> -doug
>>>
>>> -dsb
>>> Douglas S. Bigham
>>> Department of Linguistics
>>> University of Texas - Austin
>>> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html
>>>
>>
>> -dsb
>> Douglas S. Bigham
>> Department of Linguistics
>> University of Texas - Austin
>> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html
>>


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Feb  7 10:36:36 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:36:36 +0000
Subject: question
In-Reply-To: <200502042332.j14NWFKa019148@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.103636.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 4/2/05 11:25 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> Subject:      Re: question
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> FWIW, I've always considered "not to worry" to be an annoying Briticism.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
Don't worry - be happy.

-Annoying Britisher




> On Feb 4, 2005, at 4:51 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>> Subject:      Fwd: question
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>> forwarded from the Yale Rabbi via a colleague,.  Anyone know?
>>
>>
>>
>> larry
>> ==============
>>
>>
>> The Rabbi, Jim Ponet, asks:
>>
>> ... explain if you will the structure "Not to worry."  Does it emulate
>> anything Yiddish.  Then there's "to kill for,"  "to die for."
>>
>> It does follow a Hebrew structure arguable.  But I doubt that origin.
>>
>> --- end forwarded text
>>


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Feb  7 10:46:31 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:46:31 +0000
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <200502061522.j16FMh08030463@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.104631.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 6/2/05 3:22 pm, Beckymercuri at AOL.COM at Beckymercuri at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beckymercuri at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Re: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> In a message dated 2/5/2005 4:27:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, douglas at NB.NET
> writes:
> The use of "sammie/sammy" as a (nick)name/slang term for "sandwich" is
>> new to me.
>
> I surely don't recall ever encountering it either. "Sangwich" and "sammich"
> (and "sanwich") are just casual pronunciation variants, I think, but
> "sammy" (along with "sangy" and "sanny" and "sandy" and "sandwy" maybe) is
> something else: baby-talk? advertiser-talk? diner-lingo?

Here in the UK (and especially in Liverpool) they've always been 'sarnies'
or 'butties' (as in 'chip butty').

_Neil Crawford
>
> I wonder what the age and gender distribution of "sammy" users would look
> like.
>
> -- Doug Wilson
> Doug:
>
> I think you may be correct when you say "baby-talk," which is what I sort of
> inferred when I mentioned that the word "sammie" (or "sammy") appeared to be a
> term of endearment for a favorite American dish. I've never seen it in diner
> lingo.
>
> If this is of any help to you, I've noticed that both males and females, aged
> 20 to around 60, have used the term. Geographically, I've noted that it's
> primarily an east and west coast term - but with people relocating all over
> the
> country, who knows? I was surprised to see it in the Houston Chronicle
> article,
> but perhaps the author was from Pennsylvania, given her hope for a Super Bowl
> between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia (and her knowledge of the Primanti
> sandwich, a local favorite in Pittsburgh).
>
> Becky


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Feb  7 12:20:46 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:20:46 -0500
Subject: Disraeli Quote on PQHN
In-Reply-To: <53075.69.142.143.59.1107753411.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.072046.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> The earliest mention I've found on Proquest for the Judah Benjamin story
> is in a New York Times "Queries and Answers" column of July 10, 1921, in a
> response to a query about the Disraeli quote.  An earlier source is given
> for the Judah Benjamin version: "Reminiscences of Sixty Years in the
> National Metropolis" by Benjamin Perley Poore (Philadelphia, 1886).

Bartlett's gives the Poore reference, but I have looked at that book and
am unable to find it there.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb  7 13:12:36 2005
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 05:12:36 -0800
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
In-Reply-To: <0ae6d50f6afb0e31f836243b99a10fdb@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.051236.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I hear "scuzz", "scuzzy", "scuzzbag", "scumbag" (not
the "other" meaning), and "dirtbag" used frequently.



--- Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:

> Oh, please, Jon!;-) Sterile pseudo-slang and fake
> vulgarities designed
> to pass censorship have no legs and are totally
> devoid of soul. Have
> you ever heard anyone seriously use "scuzz[whatever]
> or even that hoary
> old chestnut, "scumbag," in real life? Well,
> "scumbag," perhaps, in its
> other meaning of "safe," i.e. "condom."
>
> Of course, you may very well be completely right.
>
> -Wilson
>
> On Feb 4, 2005, at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society
> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter
> <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> >
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> >
> > "Scumbag" comes close:
> >
> > "Isn't he the scuzzcrack who fired you from
> Yearbook?"..."You fired
> > me, remember? Because you're a scuzzcrack!"
> >
> > JL
> > Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Wilson Gray
> > Subject: Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> >
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> >
> > What is the meaning of "scuzzcrack"? It's not as
> obvious as that of
> > "pimpmobile."
> >
> > -Wilson
> >
> > On Feb 3, 2005, at 10:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> wrote:
> >
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> >> Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> >>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> -
> >> --------
> >>
> >> The possibility that Wilson may be the inglorious
> Milton who coined
> >> "pimpmobile" reminds me that back on Oct. 22 I
> reported two
> >> occurrences of the word "scuzzcrack" on CBS's
> "Joan of Arcadia" that
> >> evening, a word which had not appeared on the Net
> or anywhere else
> >> that I was aware of.
> >>
> >> Despite its simultaneous reception in millions of
> American homes,
> >> there is still no evidence of wider usage more
> than 90 days later.
> >>
> >> So if Wilson set "pimpmobile" afloat in 1963
> without the aid of mass
> >> media, we reasonably might not expect it to
> surface till sometime in
> >> the mid 22nd century.
> >>
> >> A quick Google check uncovers about one quarter
> million examples of
> >> "pimpmobile" on the Web alone. I am sorry to
> report, therefore, that
> >> any claim in favor of Wilson's unique ownership
> of this word for
> >> copyright, trademark, or servicemark purposes is
> likely to be
> >> staunchly contested.
> >>
> >> JL
> >>
> >> Wilson Gray wrote:
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >> Poster: Wilson Gray
> >> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> >>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> -
> >> --------
> >>
> >> On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:38 AM, Jonathan Lighter
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header
> >>> -----------------------
> >>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> >>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> >>>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> -
> >>> -
> >>> --------
> >>>
> >>> Thanks, Wilson. The military sense must be
> fairly obscure, since I
> >>> just discovered it and it seems to go back to
> the '50s among Morse
> >>> operators. Pretty expressive, though.
> >>>
> >>> As for "pimpmobile," it seems to have taken a
> full decade for your
> >>> creation to have reached the print media.
> >>>
> >>> JL
> >>
> >> You know what gives me the jaws (there's a bit in
> HDAS about this use
> >> of "jaws"; can't recall at the moment whether it
> has this particular
> >> version) about "pimpmobile"? There's simply no
> way to find out whether
> >> I'm really *the* source. It's such an obvious
> coinage that any number
> >> of other people could have come up with it any
> number of times. It's
> >> even possible that the first person to use the
> word in print coined it
> >> independently. Sigh! No 15 minutes of fame for
> me.
> >>
> >> -Wilson
> >>
> >>
> >>> Wilson Gray wrote:
> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header
> >>> -----------------------
> >>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>> Poster: Wilson Gray
> >>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> >>>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> -
> >>> -
> >>> --------
> >>>
> >>> When I was a teenager in the 'Fifties in St.
> Louis,
> >>> "dittybop(p)er"/diddybop(per)" was a fairly mild
> insult that meant
> >>> something like "wannabe hipster." There was no
> verb form.
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately, when I was in The War, I didn't
> have occasion to come
> >>> into contact with any Morse-code operators. More
> useless information:
> >>> when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it
> sounds like Morse code
> >>> to
> >>> the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the
> equipment available in
> >>> the
> >>> late '50's.
> >>>
> >>> -Wilson Gray
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the
> mail header
> >>>> -----------------------
> >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> >>>> Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> >>>>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
=== message truncated ===


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
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From goranson at DUKE.EDU  Mon Feb  7 13:35:08 2005
From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 08:35:08 -0500
Subject: Judah Benjamin (was Disraeli Quote on PQHN)
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.083508.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Poore, vol. 1, pages 438/439:

Senator Judah Peter Benjamin was a dapper little gentleman, with a small
waist, who was always faultlessly dressed, and who was one of the hardest
working members of the Senate. born a British subject on one of the West India
[sic] Islands, he became a citizen of the /[439] United States by domicile
very early in life. His boyhood was spent in a small fruit-shop kept by his
father at Charleston, but wealthy Hebrews aided him in obtaining an education,
and his indomitable will enabled him in due time to enter upon the practice of
law at New Orleans, There, where nearly all legal proceedings were then
duplicated in French and English, his perfect familiarity with both languages,
with his ability and eloquence, soon enabled him to amass a fortune. He
married a Gentile, but he was always satistied with the Hebrew faith. One day
when a Senator of German extraction taunted him with being a Jew, he said, in
his silvery tones: "The gentleman will please remember that when his half-
civilized ancestors were hunting the wild boar in the forests of Silesia, mine
were the princes of the earth." The Senate was quite effectually silenced.

best,
Stephen Goranson


Quoting Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Disraeli Quote on PQHN
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>
> On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>
> > The earliest mention I've found on Proquest for the Judah Benjamin story
> > is in a New York Times "Queries and Answers" column of July 10, 1921, in a
> > response to a query about the Disraeli quote.  An earlier source is given
> > for the Judah Benjamin version: "Reminiscences of Sixty Years in the
> > National Metropolis" by Benjamin Perley Poore (Philadelphia, 1886).
>
> Bartlett's gives the Poore reference, but I have looked at that book and
> am unable to find it there.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Feb  7 13:49:08 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:49:08 +0000
Subject: composed salad adj
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.134908.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

'There was a very big platter of finger sandwiches and composed salad plates
with asparagus, cherry tomatoes, and artichoke hearts.'

-Robert B. Parker, 'Back Story', Putnam, NY, 2003 (No Exit Press, Harpenden,
2003, 43)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Feb  7 14:17:02 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:17:02 -0500
Subject: Judah Benjamin (was Disraeli Quote on PQHN)
In-Reply-To: <1107783308.42076e8c8b2f7@webmail.duke.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.091702.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Stephen Goranson wrote:

> married a Gentile, but he was always satistied with the Hebrew faith. One day
> when a Senator of German extraction taunted him with being a Jew, he said, in
> his silvery tones: "The gentleman will please remember that when his half-
> civilized ancestors were hunting the wild boar in the forests of Silesia, mine
> were the princes of the earth." The Senate was quite effectually silenced.

Thanks to Stephen for finding this, which I had missed!

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb  7 14:52:56 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:52:56 -0500
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <E1Cy6Ep-00027C-00@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.095256.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 7, 2005, at 5:35 AM, neil wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       neil <neil at TYPOG.CO.UK>
> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> on 4/2/05 11:17 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
>>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> --> -
>> In addition to its other meanings, I know it as a synonym of "cunt,"
>> which, though occasionally used, doesn't have a lot of traction
>> amongst
>> the bruz and cuz, for some random reason.
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
> From which we get 'play stink-finger', presumably.

I make the same presumption. FWIW, the standard black pronunciation is
"STANK-fang-a." Wherever possible, the phonetic representations of
slang terms are made to conform to the phonetic rules of Southern
English. (There's even a jazz tune whose title is a pun based on this
custom: "D-Natural Blues," i.e. "[(I got) dI naeC@] blues," as opposed
to its literal meaning as the title of a tune in the key of D-natural.)
Once upon  a time, I thought that this term was a universal of American
guy-talk or that its meaning would be immediately transparent   among
guys who'd never heard it before. I've since discovered that it's
totally unknown on the white-guy street and, even though I've always
used the standard pronunciation when talking to them.

>
> Conversely, there is a porn video series featuring simultaneous
> vaginal and
> anal penetration titled 'One in the Pink, One in the Stink'.

Uh, I'm not conversant with that cinematic genre, Neil. ;-)

-Wilson Gray

>
> -Neil Crawford
>
>
>
>> On Feb 4, 2005, at 2:23 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM>
>>> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Double-entendre?  No.  I can't even think of one, in fact.  It's
>>> definitely a
>>> single entendre.
>>>
>>> -doug
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/21/2005 8:52:59 AM Central Standard Time,
>>> wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes:
>>> Is there a double-entendre in there for you, doug? For me there is.
>>>
>>> -Wilson
>>>
>>> On Jan 21, 2005, at 2:02 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote:
>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster:       Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM>
>>>> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --
>>>> -
>>>> --------
>>>>
>>>> Anecdote Alert: "Stank" has been my body-odor noun of choice at
>>>> least
>>>> since
>>>> high school.
>>>>
>>>> -doug
>>>>
>>>> -dsb
>>>> Douglas S. Bigham
>>>> Department of Linguistics
>>>> University of Texas - Austin
>>>> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> -dsb
>>> Douglas S. Bigham
>>> Department of Linguistics
>>> University of Texas - Austin
>>> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html
>>>
>


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb  7 15:07:24 2005
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:07:24 -0800
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050206000348.02f84150@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.070724.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've often had 'soup and sammie' for lunch.

Ed


--- "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> wrote:

> The "sammie" which appeared in the ADS-L archives
> was among a group of New
> Zealand words.
>
> Here is a large list of NZ-isms, including "sammie"
> and other similar
> things such as "footie" = "football", "pozzie" =
> "position", "breckie" =
> "breakfast", etc.
>
> http://chris.heathens.co.nz/NZese.html
>
> "Sammie" = "sandwich" fits naturally enough in the
> NZ list.
>
> If "sammie" = "sandwich" is conventional in the US,
> there should be
> numerous examples in fiction: are there? It's hard
> to search since mostly
> "Sammy" is a name; but I checked several expressions
> such as "ham sammie",
> "have a sammie", etc. at Amazon search-inside and I
> don't see any "sammie"
> = "sandwich". Maybe it's very new in the US?
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>



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From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Mon Feb  7 15:15:18 2005
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:15:18 -0600
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <200502071452.j17EqxA3022335@mx1.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.091518.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray wrote, of "stinkfinger":
> Once upon  a time, I thought that this term was a universal of American
> guy-talk or that its meaning would be immediately transparent   among
> guys who'd never heard it before. I've since discovered that it's
> totally unknown on the white-guy street and, even though I've always
> used the standard pronunciation when talking to them.

I've heard the phrase used by a white acquaintance of mine, using the
standard pronunciation; he was a career US Navy man, serving from
the mid-'60s to the mid-'80s, and I'm absolutely certain that that's where
he encountered it.

Jim Parish


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb  7 15:21:58 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:21:58 -0500
Subject: Flamboozled; Dipsy-doodle; Zoot Suit; 29th Century Gabriel
 (1942)
In-Reply-To: <E1Cy2sH-0004wX-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.102158.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 7, 2005, at 1:59 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Flamboozled; Dipsy-doodle; Zoot Suit; 29th Century
> Gabriel (1942)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> 20TH CENTURY GABRIEL (ERSKINE HAWKINS)
> ...
> I got tired and depressed and didn't read much of DOWN BEAT. No
> "hawk." I
> only wish I could help Chicago more.
> ...
> ...
> 1 January 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 14, col. 3 illustration:
> _Gabriel Drew Him_
> (Illustration)
> Lucky Millinder

As fate would have it, it was Lucky Millinder and his band that
recorded the instrumental, "D-Natural Blues," that I mentioned in an
earlier post.

-Wilson Gray

> , the sepia band leader who has made a nice comeback in  1941,
> is caricatured by fellow band leader Erskine Hawkins, the 20th Century
> Gabriel. Like Xavier Cugat, Hawkins wields a mean pencil in addition
> to blowing  a
> hot horn. Millinder, with Sister Rosetta Tharpe as an added
> attraction, has
> been playing the Savoy Ballroom, New York.
> ...
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> --------------------------------------------------------
> FLAMBOOZLED
> ...
> The HDAS has 1956, probably from FLA(BBERGAST( + (BAM)BOOZLED.
> ...
> I would think it's FLAM (as in flim-flam) + bamboozled.
> ...
> ...
> 1 January 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 5, col. 1:
> _"I Was Flamboozled!"_
> _Says Ballroom Op,_
> _After Losing 20 G's_
> ...
> Chicago--"I think I was flamboozled," said Mrs. W. L. Stearns, former
> manager of the Palladium ballroom here, after she and her husband has
> just  dropped
> $20,000 in the operation of the mammoth ballroom.
> ...
> ...
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> --------------------------------------------------------
> DIPSY-DOODLE
> ...
> The HDAS has various citations from 1943, 1951, 1954, 1983.
> ...
> ...
> 15 June 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 4, col. 5:
> Ben Pollack came out of the east with a new slang expression,
> "_dipsydoodlers_," referring to those location jobs on which the
> musicians are  expected to
> dig into their own pockets for office commissions, radio line  charges
> and,
> frequently, a direct bonus or premium to the operator  himself.
> ...
> ...
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> --------------------------------------------------------
> ZOOT SUIT
> ...
> 15 March 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 12, col. 4:
> _Pot Wants an "Au Reet" Zoot Suit_

"Au Reet" is probably eye-dialect for "all reet," a term still popular
down to the early '50's, like the phrase, "[she's] reet, petite, and
gone," i.e. "very attractive."

-Wilson Gray

> (Photo--ed.)
> You're not hep these days unless you're wearing a zoot suit, is the
> report
> among swing musicians today. Pot, Pan and Skillet, currently touring
> with the
> Duke Ellington ork, are knocking themselves out on a "Zoot Suit"
> sketch,
> written  by Sid Kuller. The trio introduced the sketch calling for a
> "zoot suit
> with a  reat pleat, a sadistic cape with a murderistic drape,
> shoulders extended
> solid  as intended, streamlined lining and drape-lined pockets, 53 at
> the knee
> and 7  inch cuffs."

No "drape shape" or "bluff cuffs"? ;-)

-Wilson Gray

>  Skillet and Pan are shown here carefully measuring the
> tape on Pot  so he gives his directions for the "ample 53."
> ...
> ...
> 1 April 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 4 ad:
> KAY KYSER

There was, in the
>  AND HIS ORCHESTRA
> Latest Columbia Recordings
> "A ZOOT SUIT"
> (FOR MY SUNDAY GAL)
>


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Mon Feb  7 16:10:33 2005
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:10:33 +0000
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <E1CyAeK-0002hM-8m@hausdorff.zen.co.uk>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.161033.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

c.1879–1935 in G. Legman _The Limerick_ (1953) 112: There was a young
curate of Eltham / Who wouldn’t fuck girls, but he felt ’em. / In lanes
he would linger / And play at stink-finger [etc.]

Definitely white (white-collared even) and according to Legman probably
extant from the late 19C. Irving Welsh gives the Scots (and again white)
alternative:

2001 Welsh Glue 39: Ah settles her doon oan the couch giein her the
stinky-pinky for a bit, sliding ma hand up that wee kilt and inside her
pants.

[Note to Jon Lighter: be relieved you don't have transcribe, and indeed
translate Mr W.]

Of course we Brits are equally enamoured of 'finger-pie', hence Lennon &
McCartney in 'Penny Lane' (1967): Penny Lane is in my ears and in my
eyes, / A four [sc. four penny-worth] of fish and finger pie / In summer.

Whether the two Fabs were being dead smart (as they might have put it)
and making a sly reference to fish = woman = vagina, I cannot say.

Jonathon Green


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb  7 18:46:39 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:46:39 -0500
Subject: SEC (See Everything Crooked); O.T. Going to Pukk
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.134639.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SEE EVERYTHING CROOKED--20 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit

I don't know if the next HDAS will have it.


7 February 2005, New York Post, pg. 35, col. 1:
Back in those days, the initials SEC were said to stand for "See Everything Crooked," and the big shots of Wall Street groveled before them. But that is no longer the case.

--------------------------------------------------------------
OT: PUKK

I told a co-worker that I wouldorder the Son-in-Law Tofus tonight.

CO-WORKER: You're going to puke?
POPIK: Yes.
CO-WORKER: Are you going to puke NOW?
POPIK: No, not for lunch. I'm going to puke tonight.
Co-WORKER: Are you going to puke with anyone?
POPIK: No. I'm going to puke by myself.

OK, lunch is almost up.

http://www.nydailynews.com/city_life/food/story/273310p-233953c.html
The creators of the stylish Thai restaurants Highline and Peep have expanded their roster. Pukk (in Thai, it means "vegetable") opened this week at 71 First Ave. (between Fourth and Fifth Sts.). The vegetarian menu includes pad Thai, curries, noodle and tofu dishes. Designed as a mix of new and old, the 36-seat dining room boasts an ultramodern bright-white and lime-green color scheme as well as a floating Buddha.
(...)

Joe Dziemianowicz and Rachel Wharton

Originally published on January 20, 2005


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Feb  7 18:52:51 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:52:51 -0800
Subject: Fwd: question
In-Reply-To: <l03130302be29d57c403d@[12.107.140.112]>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.105251.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've been waiting for someone who has some familiarity with Yiddish to
chime in, but since no one has, I'll just say that the phrases "to kill
for" and "to die for" have no word-for-word parallels in German.  The
closest I can think of would be "Es ist zum Lachen" 'it's laughable', and
"Es ist zum Kotzen" 'it makes me sick'.  No preposition at the end, and the
construction is made possible only by nominalizing the infinitive.  It
doesn't seem to be a productive pattern: there is no parallel *"Es ist zum
Toeten" or *"Es ist zum Sterben".  I find it hard to see where Yiddish
would have gotten such a construction, but I can't say for sure.

Peter Mc.

--On Friday, February 4, 2005 8:57 PM -0500 sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
wrote:

>>> The Rabbi, Jim Ponet, asks:
>>>
>>> ... explain if you will the structure "Not to worry."  Does it emulate
>>> anything Yiddish.  Then there's "to kill for,"  "to die for."
> ~~~~~~~
> "Not to worry" has a kind of breezy quality that suggests to me that it's
> simply
> a case of  lowering the imperative tone of "I'm telling you not to worry!"
> No particular foreign influence.
> "To kill for" & "to die for," OTOH, do have a kind of Yiddish or German
> resonance, to my ear, at least.
> A. Murie



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Feb  7 19:01:13 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:01:13 -0500
Subject: Fwd: on hypercorrection
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.140113.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One more bit of hypercorrection, this time eliminating the dreaded linking
/r/ in New England:

>[From a former student:]  Seen when shopping on ebay for a mirror to put
>in my newly remodeled bathroom. Here is the description:
>
>This auction is for a beautiful country-style, white vanity mirror with
>two storage draws.  Perfect for bathroom!
>Mirror has beveled edge surrounded by painted white hardwood.  Two lower
>draws for storage of toiletries.
>Knobs on draws are nickel finish.
>Dimensions:   18" x 32"
>** Please note this is a new vanity mirror, never used. It is out of it's
>original packaging however and does have a few (very minor) scratches
>which can be touched up very easily!
>This truly is a beautiful piece and could be hung above a vanity or on an
>open wall.... VERY VERSATILE!
>**  Please note NO RETURNS on this item.  Feel free to contact me with any
>questions...
>Thanks for looking!
>
>
>When I read the description, I thought to myself, "Oh, this seller must be
>from up north!" Sure enough, the seller lives in Rhode Island.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Feb  7 19:34:32 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:34:32 -0800
Subject: origins of the english language
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.113432.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from the newsgroup sci.lang, unedited, for your amusement:
-----
From: Verna <FORIGI_FORIGI at google.com>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto,sci.lang
Re: Academic/scientific journals in Esperanto?
Date: Mon Feb 07 11:19:40 PST 2005

Christopher Culver wrote:

  >>Manuel M Campagna wrote [re references to zamenhof]:

  >>1. This is an ad hominem argument, therefore it is invalid.

  > It isn't an ad hominem argument to state that a language created by a
  > sole man is different than a language created by natural cultural
  > processes. The many linguists here on sci.lang would be pleased to
  > show you how Esperanto differs.

It is wrong to assume, or to spout off as factual, that the English
language was created by any "natural cultural processes.", this is only
one of several subscribed hypotheses by language scientist.  Some
linguistic archaeologist indeed have been able to demonstrate that the
English language its self is in fact an unnatural man-made language.
This language having been invented by sophisticated grammaratitions and
religious-orders of the time to subjugate the local peoples in the area
into a single national entity, schismatic of other neighboring tribes
and nations that spoke reciprocal languages - an insidious linguistical
strategy of divide and conquer - ancient and effective.
------

arnold, your sophisticated grammaratition


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Feb  7 19:45:48 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:45:48 -0500
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <20050206050041.1C49FB2860@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.144548.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray wondered:
>
>What does "WV2PBR" stand for?
>

Patti Kurtz correctly analyzed it:
   >>>>>
Looks like an amateur radio call sign to me.. unless Mark's got some
kind of new code going : )
 <<<<<

Yup. The initial W meant United States, as do K, N, and A; I think A is
still reserved for the military. "V" before the number indicated Novice
class. The numeral 2 meant New York State, or maybe New York/New England. I
never advanced any further.

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb  7 20:06:56 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 15:06:56 -0500
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <E1CyErQ-000477-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.150656.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, Mark, you clearly took the first step of journey of a thousand
(s)miles.;-) Thanks for the info!

-Wilson

On Feb 7, 2005, at 2:45 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson Gray wondered:
>>
>> What does "WV2PBR" stand for?
>>
>
> Patti Kurtz correctly analyzed it:
>>>>>>
> Looks like an amateur radio call sign to me.. unless Mark's got some
> kind of new code going : )
>  <<<<<
>
> Yup. The initial W meant United States, as do K, N, and A; I think A is
> still reserved for the military. "V" before the number indicated Novice
> class. The numeral 2 meant New York State, or maybe New York/New
> England. I
> never advanced any further.
>
> -- Mark
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Feb  7 21:20:17 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:20:17 -0500
Subject: Hybrid drivers
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.162017.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Nothing new in biology, nor in usage really, but a little alarming if you're
just skimming the page
(http://www.bankrate.com/natl/itax/news/20050124a1.asp):

    >>>>>
  So hybrid drivers who bought their cars last year can still claim the full
$2,000 deduction on their 2004 returns (as long as they file Form 1040, that
is; the deduction can only be taken on line 35 of that form). [...]
  <<<<<

The key is in the preceding paragraph:
    >>>>>
  If you purchased either a hybrid car or a fully electric auto last year,
[...]
  <<<<<


-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

PS: The page is ad- and graphics-heavy, so I look for and clicked on
"Printer friendly page". Guess what? The only difference is that the
"printer friendly" page says "Close print window" instead.

-- Mark, channeling Barry. Time for a break.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb  7 21:22:46 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:22:46 -0500
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <E1CyCF8-0001g6-00@mx20.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.162246.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

*Very interesting! So, it's a term, well-known in the Mother Country,
that seemingly has died out among members of the primary social group
in the daughter-country. Yet, it somehow has been preserved by members
of a despised secondary group, a not-unknown occurrence. Since I am
fully persuaded of the correctness of Jonathon's evidence, I am thereby
obligated to put aside the erroneous belief that "stinkfinger(ing)" is
a term that arose in the black linguistic pool (Blackpool! Get it?
Rimshot!). I guess that the colored will now have to make do with Plato
and Cleopatra.*

*This is a reference to a species of pseudo-history still prevalent,
unfortunately, among some black Americans, including even some
academics, that supposedly gives the lie to the white man's perversion,
distortion, and revision of the history of Western civilization. For
some reason, Plato and Cleopatra have stuck in my mind, probably
because I've been familiar with these two claims since I learned to
read. Ey, wallah:

The name usually rendered as "Plato" in English derives from "platon,"
the Greek word for "flat." Plato was given this (nick)name because he
had a, by the white man's standard, flat nose. This so-called "flat"
nose is typical of people whose ancestry flows from Mother Africa, from
whose ebon loins sprang mankind itself! Hence, Plato was black.

Cleopatra was an Egyptian. Not even The Man himself disputes this.
Egypt is in Africa. The black race comes from Africa. Therefore,
Cleopatra was black.

-Wilson

On Feb 7, 2005, at 11:10 AM, Jonathon Green wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathon Green <slang at ABECEDARY.NET>
> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> c.1879–1935 in G. Legman _The Limerick_ (1953) 112: There was a young
> curate of Eltham / Who wouldn’t fuck girls, but he felt ’em. / In lanes
> he would linger / And play at stink-finger [etc.]
>
> Definitely white (white-collared even) and according to Legman probably
> extant from the late 19C. Irving Welsh gives the Scots (and again
> white)
> alternative:
>
> 2001 Welsh Glue 39: Ah settles her doon oan the couch giein her the
> stinky-pinky for a bit, sliding ma hand up that wee kilt and inside her
> pants.
>
> [Note to Jon Lighter: be relieved you don't have transcribe, and indeed
> translate Mr W.]
>
> Of course we Brits are equally enamoured of 'finger-pie', hence Lennon
> &
> McCartney in 'Penny Lane' (1967): Penny Lane is in my ears and in my
> eyes, / A four [sc. four penny-worth] of fish and finger pie / In
> summer.
>
> Whether the two Fabs were being dead smart (as they might have put it)
> and making a sly reference to fish = woman = vagina, I cannot say.
>
> Jonathon Green
>


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Feb  7 21:37:24 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:37:24 +0000
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <200502072122.j17LMobe023564@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.213724.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 7/2/05 9:22 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> *Very interesting! So, it's a term, well-known in the Mother Country,
> that seemingly has died out among members of the primary social group
> in the daughter-country. Yet, it somehow has been preserved by members
> of a despised secondary group, a not-unknown occurrence. Since I am
> fully persuaded of the correctness of Jonathon's evidence, I am thereby
> obligated to put aside the erroneous belief that "stinkfinger(ing)" is
> a term that arose in the black linguistic pool (Blackpool! Get it?
> Rimshot!). I guess that the colored will now have to make do with Plato
> and Cleopatra.*
>
> *This is a reference to a species of pseudo-history still prevalent,
> unfortunately, among some black Americans, including even some
> academics, that supposedly gives the lie to the white man's perversion,
> distortion, and revision of the history of Western civilization. For
> some reason, Plato and Cleopatra have stuck in my mind, probably
> because I've been familiar with these two claims since I learned to
> read. Ey, wallah:
>
> The name usually rendered as "Plato" in English derives from "platon,"
> the Greek word for "flat." Plato was given this (nick)name because he
> had a, by the white man's standard, flat nose. This so-called "flat"
> nose is typical of people whose ancestry flows from Mother Africa, from
> whose ebon loins sprang mankind itself! Hence, Plato was black.
>
> Cleopatra was an Egyptian. Not even The Man himself disputes this.
> Egypt is in Africa. The black race comes from Africa. Therefore,
> Cleopatra was black.
>
> -Wilson

Whatever you're on, G. Legman would have been proud of you (esoteric info
one wonders how one lived without)!

_ Neil Crawford
>
> On Feb 7, 2005, at 11:10 AM, Jonathon Green wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Jonathon Green <slang at ABECEDARY.NET>
>> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>> c.1879–1935 in G. Legman _The Limerick_ (1953) 112: There was a young
>> curate of Eltham / Who wouldn’t fuck girls, but he felt ’em. / In lanes
>> he would linger / And play at stink-finger [etc.]
>>
>> Definitely white (white-collared even) and according to Legman probably
>> extant from the late 19C. Irving Welsh gives the Scots (and again
>> white)
>> alternative:
>>
>> 2001 Welsh Glue 39: Ah settles her doon oan the couch giein her the
>> stinky-pinky for a bit, sliding ma hand up that wee kilt and inside her
>> pants.
>>
>> [Note to Jon Lighter: be relieved you don't have transcribe, and indeed
>> translate Mr W.]
>>
>> Of course we Brits are equally enamoured of 'finger-pie', hence Lennon
>> &
>> McCartney in 'Penny Lane' (1967): Penny Lane is in my ears and in my
>> eyes, / A four [sc. four penny-worth] of fish and finger pie / In
>> summer.
>>
>> Whether the two Fabs were being dead smart (as they might have put it)
>> and making a sly reference to fish = woman = vagina, I cannot say.
>>
>> Jonathon Green
>>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Feb  7 21:40:08 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:40:08 -0500
Subject: The stink/The stank
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.164008.0500.>

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:10:33 +0000, Jonathon Green <slang at ABECEDARY.NET>
wrote:

>Of course we Brits are equally enamoured of 'finger-pie', hence Lennon &
>McCartney in 'Penny Lane' (1967): Penny Lane is in my ears and in my
>eyes, / A four [sc. four penny-worth] of fish and finger pie / In summer.
>
>Whether the two Fabs were being dead smart (as they might have put it)
>and making a sly reference to fish = woman = vagina, I cannot say.

"We put in a joke or two...'four of fish and finger pie.' The women would
never dare say that, except to themselves. Most people wouldn't hear it,
but 'finger pie' is just a nice little joke for the Liverpool lads who
like a bit of smut."  -- Paul McCartney in _Beatles in Their Own Words_
(1978)


--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Feb  7 22:10:12 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:10:12 -0500
Subject: reet (was Re: Flamboozled, etc.)
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.171012.0500.>

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:21:58 -0500, Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:

>On Feb 7, 2005, at 1:59 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>> ZOOT SUIT
>> ...
>> 15 March 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 12, col. 4:
>> _Pot Wants an "Au Reet" Zoot Suit_
>
>"Au Reet" is probably eye-dialect for "all reet," a term still popular
>down to the early '50's, like the phrase, "[she's] reet, petite, and
>gone," i.e. "very attractive."

"Reet, Petite, and Gone" (the Louis Jordan song and the movie of the same
name) didn't appear until 1947.  More likely, the Down Beat article was
referencing Cab Calloway's 1941 song "Are You All Reet?", a compendium of
hep-cat slang: <http://www.heptune.com/lyrics/areyoual.html>.

Did the popularity of "reet" really die out in the early '50s?  So when
Jackie Wilson sang "Reet Petite" in 1957, was he reviving an obsolescent
term?  (I believe "reet" also appeared in "ABC Boogie" by Bill Haley in
1955.)

Even after the '50s, "reet" continued an underground existence,
occasionally bubbling up in pop-culture references.  It often appeared in
R. Crumb's "Zap Comics" in the '60s.  In the '70s it appeared in some
songs paying nostalgic tribute to the '50s (e.g., Van Morrison's "Jackie
Wilson Said" and Ian Dury's "Sweet Gene Vincent").  And in 1980, Chrissie
Hynde memorably used the word in The Pretenders' hit single "Brass in
Pocket":

     I got rhythm
     I can't miss a beat
     I got new skank
     So reet.

Hynde said in an interview that her usage of "reet" was inspired by Zap
Comics: <http://www.guitargirls.com/ChrissieHyndeInterview.htm>.


--Ben Zimmer


From mthom at RCN.COM  Mon Feb  7 22:24:26 2005
From: mthom at RCN.COM (Maggie Thompson)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:24:26 -0500
Subject: Burma Shave
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.172426.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's my favorite Burma Shave sign:

Cattle crossing
Means go slow
That old bull
Is some cow's beau.
Burma Shave

Also, the "lemonade" children's chant appears in THE GLASS MENAGERIE, scene
7:
"Lemonade, lemonade
Made in the shade and stirred with a spade--
Good enough for any old maid."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  8 01:02:30 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:02:30 -0500
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <56040.69.142.143.59.1107812408.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.200230.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:40 PM -0500 2/7/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:10:33 +0000, Jonathon Green <slang at ABECEDARY.NET>
>wrote:
>
>>Of course we Brits are equally enamoured of 'finger-pie', hence Lennon &
>>McCartney in 'Penny Lane' (1967): Penny Lane is in my ears and in my
>>eyes, / A four [sc. four penny-worth] of fish and finger pie / In summer.
>>
>>Whether the two Fabs were being dead smart (as they might have put it)
>>and making a sly reference to fish = woman = vagina, I cannot say.
>
>"We put in a joke or two...'four of fish and finger pie.' The women would
>never dare say that, except to themselves. Most people wouldn't hear it,
>but 'finger pie' is just a nice little joke for the Liverpool lads who
>like a bit of smut."  -- Paul McCartney in _Beatles in Their Own Words_
>(1978)
>
and here I was thinking all along that it was "for a fish and finger
pie", not that I was able to parse it.

L


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Feb  8 01:29:19 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:29:19 -0500
Subject: 2006 ANS Call for Papers
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.202919.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Forwarded on behalf of our colleagues at the ANS:

--------------------------------------------

The American Name Society

with the Linguistic Society of America

Albuquerque, New Mexico, January 5-8, 2006



First Call for Papers



          The American Name Society (ANS), a professional organization devoted to the study of names and their role in society, invites pr?cis and abstracts for papers and program suggestions for its annual meeting to be held in conjunction with the Linguistic Society of America (LSA), American Dialect Society (ADS), and other allied, professional organizations in Albuquerque, New Mexico, at the Hyatt Regency Albuquerque, January 5-8, 2006.



Papers on any area of onomastics are appropriate, and a pr?cis of not more than 500 words, along with a 100-word abstract for publication in the LSA program, should be submitted as soon as convenient but not later than August 15, 2005.  In the pr?cis, the subject of the paper should be should stated in a simple, topic sentence, which is then effectively supported by substantiating information and specific examples.



Proposals for panel discussions, suggestions for distinguished speakers, and/or other types of proposals are due by August 1, 2005.  Although the preferred mode of transmission for both the pr?cis and accompanying abstracts, as well as proposals, is by an introductory e-mail with attachment sent to paord at verizon.net, they may also be sent by surface mail addressed to:



P. A. Ord

414 High Earls Road

Westminster, MD  21158-3710



All abstracts will be evaluated anonymously, and their authors will be notified by September 1, 2005, or as soon as possible thereafter.  The abstracts for papers that are accepted will be published in the LSA Meeting Handbook.  Biographical information for each participant, which will be requested at the time a paper is accepted, will be provided in an abbreviated ANS program.



Please note:  Membership in ANS is a requirement of all presenters, who are also expected to pay the LSA conference registration fee.  This fee allows one access to all LSA, ADS, and other allied organization sessions, as well as the book exhibits, and makes one eligible for the reduced hotel rate of $92.00/night, double or single.  Presenters will also be expected to pay an additional, incidental registration fee to ANS, to cover expenses for any items not provided by LSA.



Further information concerning the Linguistic Society of America and the 2006 LSA meeting in Albuquerque may be obtained from the LSA homepage at www.lsadc.org.  Additional information about the American Name Society may be accessed at www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ANS/.


----- End forwarded message -----


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Feb  8 04:08:47 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:08:47 -0800
Subject: on hypercorrection
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050207135808.03405c08@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.200847.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 7, 2005, at 11:01 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> One more bit of hypercorrection, this time eliminating the dreaded
> linking
> /r/ in New England:
>
>> [From a former student:]  Seen when shopping on ebay for a mirror to
>> put
>> in my newly remodeled bathroom. Here is the description:
>>
>> This auction is for a beautiful country-style, white vanity mirror
>> with
>> two storage draws. ..

so this isn't hypercorrection, but just representation of the writer's
variety.  (in your examples, the /r/ isn't word-final, much less
intervocalic.)

still, a nice example.

arnold


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Feb  8 05:35:32 2005
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:35:32 -0800
Subject: Disraeli Quote on PQHN
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.213532.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have heard the Judah P. Benjamin version as well. I've also heard
variants on this theme used in other contexts -- most unforgettably
when I was in Rome several years ago at a time when a convention of
leghisti (members of the separatist Lega del Nord) had descended on
the city. A local TV program featured a debate between a leghista and
and a Roman intellectual, who at one point said dismissively: "Mentre
i vostri allenati vangarono le foreste, i miei furono gia' froci" --
"While your ancestors were wandering around in the forests, mine were
already fags."

Geoff Nunberg


>On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 17:33:50 -0500, I wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 16:55:41 -0500, Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>If I can impose upon the list one more time:  Is anyone willing to check
>>>ProQuest Historical Newspapers to find an 1893 Chicago Tribune occurrence
>>>of the Disraeli quote about "my ancestors" (something along the line of my
>>>ancestors were priests in the temple of Solomon when yours were
>>>savages...)?  I would need the exact wording and dating.
>>
>>Chicago Daily Tribune, Jan 22, 1893. p. 38
>>The people out there in the Kentucky County of Virginia resembled at the
>>time Disraeli's description of their relative forefathers when they had
>>called him a Jew: "When my ancestors were worshiping in the temple," he
>>said, "yours were naked barbarians."
>>
>>But here are earlier cites:
>>
>>Washington Post, Mar 28, 1878, p. 2
>>Jewish Times: Lady Rosebery has blue blood than her husband; her family
>>tree is much more ancient than his. To quote Disraeli, her ancestors were
>>princes in the temple when Lord Rosebery's ancestors were savages in the
>>woods.
>[snip]
>
>(For "blue" in the above quote, read "bluer".)
>
>I also see references to a very similar quote supposedly made by Senator
>Judah Peter Benjamin of Louisiana, some time prior to the Civil War
>(during which time he was Secretary of War for the Confederacy).
>
>----------
>http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~mendele/vol03/vol03.234
>Mendele: Yiddish literature and language
>Vol. 3.234, February 13, 1994
>
>Date: Sat Feb 12 14:32:59 1994
>From: BB7M000 <BB7M at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
>Subject: Benjamin said it first
>
>Judah P. Benjamin did say in the US Senate prior to 1861 in a reply
>to another senator," The gentleman will please remember that when
>his half-civilized ancestors were hunting the wild boar in the
>forests of Silesia, mine were the princes of the earth". This
>putdown may or not have carried across the Atlantic, but probably
>the seminary quotation was the reply made by Benjamin Disraeli (1801
>-1881) in the House of Commons when taunted by Irish Daniel
>O'Connel, "Yes, I am a Jew, and when the ancestors of the right
>honorable gentleman were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine
>were priests in the temple of Solomon". George Bernard Shaw was
>certainly aware of that putdown, and adopted it in his play "Caesar
>and Cleopatra". Viper-tounged, mini-brained Henry Mencken(1880-1956)
>probably saw the play and adapted it to his anti-semitic insult. Vi
>a tzibeleh.
>
>Hirsh Schipper (I have not checked Caesar and Cleopatra)
>----------
>
>The earliest mention I've found on Proquest for the Judah Benjamin story
>is in a New York Times "Queries and Answers" column of July 10, 1921, in a
>response to a query about the Disraeli quote.  An earlier source is given
>for the Judah Benjamin version: "Reminiscences of Sixty Years in the
>National Metropolis" by Benjamin Perley Poore (Philadelphia, 1886).
>
>
>--Ben Zimmer


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Tue Feb  8 08:41:37 2005
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Se�n Fitzpatrick)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 03:41:37 -0500
Subject: Gaper's Block (1964)
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.034137.0500.GRENDEL.JJF@VERIZON.NET>

In Philadelphia, the traffic reporters call it "gapers' delay".

I'm not sure it actually is caused by rubbernecking.  In heavy traffic, even a momentary congestion can linger long after the cause is removed, because cars come into the back of the congested area faster than they can leave the front.  You can also think of it as a wave :  the point at which drivers accelerate out of the congestion propagates back through the line of traffic like a wave.  When the current of traffic is moving at the same speed but in the opposite direction to the wave, the acceleration point stays in one place.  It looks as though drivers are slowing down to look at the accident, but it is more a matter of fluid dynamics than human nature.

Seán Fitzpatrick
Beer is good food
http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/


From justin_hertog at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Feb  8 15:35:56 2005
From: justin_hertog at HOTMAIL.COM (Justin Hertog)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 10:35:56 -0500
Subject: "Banging my spoon on the highchair"
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.103556.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I read Safire's column a few weeks ago in The Times (don't remember which
day) in which said that he had been "banging his spoon on the highchair" (or
something similar to it) about something or another.  This was amusing to
me.  I was wondering if anyone had any info about it.

Justin

_________________________________________________________________
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Feb  8 16:14:55 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:14:55 -0500
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.111455.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Years ago, when my wife was very invovled with our grade-school
parents' acssociation, there was a member of the local school board
whom she invariably referred to as "that scumbag Arnie Cohen*" -- well,
maybe she didn't use the honorific when talking at PA meetings, but at
the dinner table, always.  (*Name changed to protect the innocent.)

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

----- Original Message -----
From: James Smith <jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM>
Date: Monday, February 7, 2005 8:12 am
Subject: Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"

> I hear "scuzz", "scuzzy", "scuzzbag", "scumbag" (not
> the "other" meaning), and "dirtbag" used frequently.
>
>
>
> --- Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>
> > Oh, please, Jon!;-) Sterile pseudo-slang and fake
> > vulgarities designed
> > to pass censorship have no legs and are totally
> > devoid of soul. Have
> > you ever heard anyone seriously use "scuzz[whatever]
> > or even that hoary
> > old chestnut, "scumbag," in real life? Well,
> > "scumbag," perhaps, in its
> > other meaning of "safe," i.e. "condom."
> >
> > Of course, you may very well be completely right.
> >
> > -Wilson
> >
> > On Feb 4, 2005, at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society
> > <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter
> > <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> > > Subject:      Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > > --------
> > >
> > > "Scumbag" comes close:
> > >
> > > "Isn't he the scuzzcrack who fired you from
> > Yearbook?"..."You fired
> > > me, remember? Because you're a scuzzcrack!"
> > >
> > > JL
> > > Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > Poster: Wilson Gray
> > > Subject: Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > > --------
> > >
> > > What is the meaning of "scuzzcrack"? It's not as
> > obvious as that of
> > > "pimpmobile."
> > >
> > > -Wilson
> > >
> > > On Feb 3, 2005, at 10:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header
> > >> -----------------------
> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> > >> Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> > >>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> > >> -
> > >> --------
> > >>
> > >> The possibility that Wilson may be the inglorious
> > Milton who coined
> > >> "pimpmobile" reminds me that back on Oct. 22 I
> > reported two
> > >> occurrences of the word "scuzzcrack" on CBS's
> > "Joan of Arcadia" that
> > >> evening, a word which had not appeared on the Net
> > or anywhere else
> > >> that I was aware of.
> > >>
> > >> Despite its simultaneous reception in millions of
> > American homes,
> > >> there is still no evidence of wider usage more
> > than 90 days later.
> > >>
> > >> So if Wilson set "pimpmobile" afloat in 1963
> > without the aid of mass
> > >> media, we reasonably might not expect it to
> > surface till sometime in
> > >> the mid 22nd century.
> > >>
> > >> A quick Google check uncovers about one quarter
> > million examples of
> > >> "pimpmobile" on the Web alone. I am sorry to
> > report, therefore, that
> > >> any claim in favor of Wilson's unique ownership
> > of this word for
> > >> copyright, trademark, or servicemark purposes is
> > likely to be
> > >> staunchly contested.
> > >>
> > >> JL
> > >>
> > >> Wilson Gray wrote:
> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header
> > >> -----------------------
> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >> Poster: Wilson Gray
> > >> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> > >>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> > >> -
> > >> --------
> > >>
> > >> On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:38 AM, Jonathan Lighter
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header
> > >>> -----------------------
> > >>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> > >>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> > >>>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > >>> -
> > >>> -
> > >>> --------
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks, Wilson. The military sense must be
> > fairly obscure, since I
> > >>> just discovered it and it seems to go back to
> > the '50s among Morse
> > >>> operators. Pretty expressive, though.
> > >>>
> > >>> As for "pimpmobile," it seems to have taken a
> > full decade for your
> > >>> creation to have reached the print media.
> > >>>
> > >>> JL
> > >>
> > >> You know what gives me the jaws (there's a bit in
> > HDAS about this use
> > >> of "jaws"; can't recall at the moment whether it
> > has this particular
> > >> version) about "pimpmobile"? There's simply no
> > way to find out whether
> > >> I'm really *the* source. It's such an obvious
> > coinage that any number
> > >> of other people could have come up with it any
> > number of times. It's
> > >> even possible that the first person to use the
> > word in print coined it
> > >> independently. Sigh! No 15 minutes of fame for
> > me.
> > >>
> > >> -Wilson
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Wilson Gray wrote:
> > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header
> > >>> -----------------------
> > >>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >>> Poster: Wilson Gray
> > >>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> > >>>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > >>> -
> > >>> -
> > >>> --------
> > >>>
> > >>> When I was a teenager in the 'Fifties in St.
> > Louis,
> > >>> "dittybop(p)er"/diddybop(per)" was a fairly mild
> > insult that meant
> > >>> something like "wannabe hipster." There was no
> > verb form.
> > >>>
> > >>> Unfortunately, when I was in The War, I didn't
> > have occasion to come
> > >>> into contact with any Morse-code operators. More
> > useless information:
> > >>> when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it
> > sounds like Morse code
> > >>> to
> > >>> the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the
> > equipment available in
> > >>> the
> > >>> late '50's.
> > >>>
> > >>> -Wilson Gray
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> ---------------------- Information from the
> > mail header
> > >>>> -----------------------
> > >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> > >>>> Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> > >>>>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> =====
> James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
> South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
> jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
>                               |or slowly and cautiously.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Feb  8 16:24:21 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:24:21 -0500
Subject: The Body in the Library
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.112421.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Our viewing, like Shelley's was only of the second half (in our part of the
map, Monk conflicts with the first hour), so it was a little hard to catch
the allusions in a lot of the dialogue. The acting was very stagey for
television, almost commedia dell'arte-like in the obvious I'm-a-white-hat,
I'm-a-black-hat presentations. I don't remember the original story at all,
so the deviations in plot meant nothing to me.  I did like the new Marple
(what's her name...Geraldine something?).  She captures some of what Joan
Hickson(sp?)'s  portrayal always seemed to me to lack: a sort of suppressed
impatience, possibly even resentment at the constraints of her position.
Christie's own life reveals her chafing at the confines of the upper middle
class female role in the early 20th Century. Making her Jane Marple a kind
of latter day Jane Austen gave some expression to this impatience. A sharp
observer and sly commentator bound by convention to shade her wit.

[The Rutherford "Marple" is another matter altogether: a perfectly
marvellous character, but not Christie's Marple.]

Our reception of CBC is very uncertain, but if we can get it, I'm sure
we'll keep watching.  I think they're planning to do three.
A. Murie

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Tue Feb  8 16:23:28 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 10:23:28 -0600
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <200502080215.3a4208670124e@rly-na05.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.102328.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU wrote:

> The initial W meant United States, as do K, N, and A; I think A is
>still reserved for the military. "V" before the number indicated Novice
>class. The numeral 2 meant New York State, or maybe New York/New England. I
>never advanced any further.
>
>
A is no longer reserved for military-- my husband's call sign starts
with A (AB0ZB)  They changed a lot of that when they went from FCC
examiners to amateurs doing the testing.  But the numbers do still
indicate the region of the US  (0 being the Upper Midwest)

Patti Kurtz

>-- Mark
>[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>
>

--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Feb  8 16:28:30 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:28:30 -0500
Subject: Ooops!
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.112830.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry.  That Body in the Library post was intended for another list.
A. Murie


From jasonnorris at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  8 16:33:28 2005
From: jasonnorris at YAHOO.COM (Jason Norris)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:33:28 -0800
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.083328.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Although there are several online dictionaries, I was wondering which one(s) you use on a regular basis, whether free or subscription? (Or do you stick with the hard copy versions?)

Any recommendations?

Jason Norris



If we knew what we were doing,
it wouldn't be called research,
would it?

 -- Albert Einstein


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Tue Feb  8 16:34:07 2005
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:34:07 -0500
Subject: Hypercorrection
In-Reply-To: <200502080500.AAA00398@babel.ling.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.113407.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had to share this wonderful example of hypercorrection from my niece, 2 at the
time, currently acquiring probably middle-class Standard Southern British
English in London.

At Christmas 2003 we were decorating the house, of course, and her rendition of
the word for what we were decorating it with was

[dEkuh?Ejshns]

(ie with the intervocalic /r/ replaced with a glottal stop).  I interpreted it
as a hypercorrection arising from her presumably passive knowledge that there
is in fact no /r/ where linking [r]'s are heard in SSBE and other similar
varieties.  I say 'presumably passive knowledge' because she had certainly
never been actually corrected for putting a linking [r] in elsewhere, if she
ever does it, which I don't know.

Sadly, by Christmas 2003, she had changed it to the standard version.

Damien Hall
university of Pennsylvania


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Feb  8 16:53:21 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:53:21 -0500
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.115321.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I think the American Heritage, http://www.bartleby.com/61/, is probably the best free modern dictionary online.  For a far more comprehensive (though now somewhat dated) dictionary, though, check out the Century Dictionary, all twelve volumes of which are at http://www.global-language.com/century/.  Urbandictionary.com is unreliable but can be a useful guide to recent slang.  I don't use Merriam-Webster's online website, http://www.m-w.com/, because I have the collegiate dictionary on my desktop.  I'd love to have a subscription to the online OED, but Jesse needs to lower the price first.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Jason Norris
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 11:33 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Dictionaries Online?


Although there are several online dictionaries, I was wondering which one(s) you use on a regular basis, whether free or subscription? (Or do you stick with the hard copy versions?)

Any recommendations?

Jason Norris


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  8 16:53:49 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:53:49 -0500
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
In-Reply-To: <20050208163329.63500.qmail@web51010.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.115349.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:33 AM -0800 2/8/05, Jason Norris wrote:
>Although there are several online dictionaries, I was wondering
>which one(s) you use on a regular basis, whether free or
>subscription? (Or do you stick with the hard copy versions?)
>
>Any recommendations?
>
>Jason Norris
>
I use, and recommend, American Heritage Dictionary, 4th ed. (2000),
http://www.bartleby.com/61/

Disclaimer:  I'm a member of the Usage Panel.  I still think it's the
best universally accessible online dictionary, although if you can
access the Oxford English Dictionary from your domain, there's
nothing better.  I can get it at http://dictionary.oed.com/, but your
institution has to subscribe.

Larry


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb  8 17:16:51 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 12:16:51 -0500
Subject: on hypercorrection
In-Reply-To: <dce620c610472f096e51e0ea5b5b0404@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.121651.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You're right, Arnold--and I thought of this alternate explanation right
after I sent the note.  A good example of how dialect affects spelling though.

At 11:08 PM 2/7/2005, you wrote:
>On Feb 7, 2005, at 11:01 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>>One more bit of hypercorrection, this time eliminating the dreaded
>>linking
>>/r/ in New England:
>>
>>>[From a former student:]  Seen when shopping on ebay for a mirror to
>>>put
>>>in my newly remodeled bathroom. Here is the description:
>>>
>>>This auction is for a beautiful country-style, white vanity mirror
>>>with
>>>two storage draws. ..
>
>so this isn't hypercorrection, but just representation of the writer's
>variety.  (in your examples, the /r/ isn't word-final, much less
>intervocalic.)
>
>still, a nice example.
>
>arnold


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Tue Feb  8 18:23:08 2005
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:23:08 -0500
Subject: Staus (was gaper's block)
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.132308.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RE: traffic slowdowns

In Germany 30 yrs ago the slowdowns on the Autobahn were called Staus--n.B.
the English plural--and I was told that it derived from the English word
"stall" but pronounced "shtao".  The most frequent reason given for them was
what CALTRANS calls TMC: "too many cars."  Any small item can cause a Stau:
merging traffic, an accident, smoke or fog on the road &c. ... or just
traffic.  I was told that speed limits would reduce them because with
unlimited speed traffic bunches up and therefore everything slows down.
Consequently the major roads started getting 135 km/St speed limits (approx
84 mph).
________________________________
"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
--Albert Einstein


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Feb  8 19:02:20 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:02:20 -0500
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.140220.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm rather partial to the Century Dictionary, OED, and Samuel Johnson.  Of
the modern batch I like MW11 for the searchable etys.



American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Tuesday, February 08,
2005 at 11:53 AM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: Dictionaries Online?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>At 8:33 AM -0800 2/8/05, Jason Norris wrote:
>>Although there are several online dictionaries, I was wondering
>>which one(s) you use on a regular basis, whether free or
>>subscription? (Or do you stick with the hard copy versions?)
>>
>>Any recommendations?
>>
>>Jason Norris
>>
>I use, and recommend, American Heritage Dictionary, 4th ed. (2000),
>http://www.bartleby.com/61/
>
>Disclaimer:  I'm a member of the Usage Panel.  I still think it's the
>best universally accessible online dictionary, although if you can
>access the Oxford English Dictionary from your domain, there's
>nothing better.  I can get it at http://dictionary.oed.com/, but your
>institution has to subscribe.
>
>Larry


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Feb  8 19:11:43 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:11:43 -0500
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.141143.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Johnson is online?  Where?

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Barnhart
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 2:02 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Dictionaries Online?


I'm rather partial to the Century Dictionary, OED, and Samuel Johnson.  Of
the modern batch I like MW11 for the searchable etys.


From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM  Tue Feb  8 21:48:41 2005
From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:48:41 -0500
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
In-Reply-To: <200502080853184.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.164841.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi,

I can tell you that as a card carrying member of the
Philadelpia Free Library

I can get online from ANYWHERE
and access
Oxford Reference Online
English Dictionaries & Thesauruses
FOR FREE
and so can anyone else.

Search this subject
Search whole database
Browse this subject
Links for this subject
Search within a book
The Oxford American Dictionary of Current English
The Concise Oxford English Dictionary
The Oxford American Thesaurus of Current English
The Oxford Paperback Thesaurus
http://www.oxfordreference.com/views/BOOK_SEARCH.html?book=t21&subject=s7


To learn more about searching for free see my site

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happy hunting,
Karen Ellis

>Disclaimer:  I'm a member of the Usage Panel.  I still think it's the
>best universally accessible online dictionary, although if you can
>access the Oxford English Dictionary from your domain, there's
>nothing better.  I can get it at http://dictionary.oed.com/, but your
>institution has to subscribe.
>
>Larry

<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
The Educational CyberPlayGround
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/

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http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html

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From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM  Tue Feb  8 21:57:44 2005
From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:57:44 -0500
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B55@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.165744.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
Baker, John
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 11:53 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Dictionaries Online?


        I think the American Heritage, http://www.bartleby.com/61/, is
probably the best free modern dictionary online.  For a far more
comprehensive (though now somewhat dated) dictionary, though, check out the
Century Dictionary, all twelve volumes of which are at
http://www.global-language.com/century/.  Urbandictionary.com is unreliable
but can be a useful guide to recent slang.  I don't use Merriam-Webster's
online website, http://www.m-w.com/, because I have the collegiate
dictionary on my desktop.  I'd love to have a subscription to the online
OED, but Jesse needs to lower the price first.

John Baker




Check your local library's website.  The Columbus (OH) public library offers
access to OED online if you have a library card.


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Feb  8 22:02:51 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:02:51 -0500
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <20050208050036.78268B2549@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.170251.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray syllogizes:
   >>>>>

Cleopatra was an Egyptian.
Egypt is in Africa.
The black race comes from Africa.
Therefore, Cleopatra was black.
 <<<<<

False logic, I'm afraid. Now, if the third line were "All Africans are
black" it would stand up a lot better.

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb  8 22:24:31 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:24:31 -0500
Subject: primary, v.
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.172431.0500.>

(None of these senses are in the OED yet, or in any of the other major
dictionaries.  Nothing in _Hatchet Jobs and Hardball_ either.)


* primary, v. intr. 'to hold a primary election'

1916 _Fort Wayne News_ (Ind.) 22 July 1/2 Texas Democrats today are
primarying on everything from prohibition to dog warden and from school
bonds to United States senator.


* primary, v. intr. 'to run in a primary election'

1978 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ (NY) 22 Mar. 25/5 Robert Byrne, who
previously announced he was considering primarying against Walsh for the
Republican nomination, is in the race and has set up a committee to draft
him.

1995 _News-Times_ (Danbury, Conn.) 2 Nov. (online) Winkler primaried to
win the party's endorsement over a candidate favored by Hapanowich, he
said.
<http://web.archive.org/web/19970807001939/www.newstimes.com/archive/nov0295/lce.htm>

1997 _Westbury Times_ (NY) 13 Nov. (online) One of the last races I ran
was up in Albany, where we primaried against their Democratic machine.
<http://www.antonnews.com/westburytimes/1997/11/13/news/>


* primary, v. trans. 'to oppose (someone) in a primary election'

1982 _New York Times_ 30 May (Westchester Weekly) 8/6 Then, in 1969, when
the Board of Legislators was formed out of the old Board of Supervisors, I
was selected by the Republicans for the Port Chester seat, but John
primaried me and won - by about 95 votes.

1982 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ (NY) 19 Sep. A8/2 Wortley claims Lee could
have challenged Democratic Congressman Stanley Lundine in the 34th
District, or primaried Oneida County Executive Sherwood Boehlert, a
Republican, in the 25th District.

2005 _Montgomery Advertiser_ (Ala.) 16 Jan. (online) "Getting Daschled" is
now a real concern for many liberal members of Congress in both political
parties, but especially for Democrats. Yet, because their base is so
left-wing, liberal Democrats also fear getting "primaried," that is,
losing to another liberal in their party's primary.
<http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/NEWSV5/storyV5edvoice116w.htm>


And a few nonce forms...


* white primaried, ppl. a. 'subjected to all-white primary elections (as
in the Southern U.S. during the Jim Crow era)'

1904 T. WATSON in C. V. Woodward _Tom Watson_ (1938) 370 What can the
negro do? He has been disfranchised in nearly every southern state, except
Georgia, and in Georgia he has been "white primaried."
[in turn cited by: M. Perlman _Struggle for Mastery_ (2001) 285
<http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/080782593X/>]


* outprimaried, ppl. a. 'outwitted or outmaneuvered in a primary election'

1908 _Sandusky Star Journal_ (Ohio) 23 Jan. 8/3 The senator was
out-primaried, if we may use that term.


* unprimaried, ppl. a. 'unopposed in a primary election'

1982 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ (NY) 12 Sep. E2/5 Had Lee decided to run in
any district other than the 27th, both he and Wortley would probably have
gone un-primaried into the November election.


--Ben Zimmer


From morzinsk.mary at UWLAX.EDU  Tue Feb  8 22:19:28 2005
From: morzinsk.mary at UWLAX.EDU (Mary Morzinski)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:19:28 -0600
Subject: CALL FOR PAPERS
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.161928.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CALL FOR PAPERS

American Dialect Society session of the Rocky Mountain Modern Language Association meeting

Coeur d'Alene
October 20-22, 2005

Papers on any aspect of language variation are invited.

Send abstract by March 1, 2005 to
morzinsk.mary at uwlax.edu
Mary Morzinski
Dept of English 
UW-L
La Crosse, WI 54601


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb  8 23:08:20 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:08:20 -0500
Subject: Daschled
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.180820.0500.>

This one was already noted by the good folks at Experimental Linguistics:
<http://expling.blogspot.com/2004/11/daschledandcheneyed.html>.
But will it have the staying power of "Borked" or "Fisking"?


[2002 _Broadcasting & Cable_ 11 Feb. (Proquest) 4 (heading) Hopes Daschled?]

[2004 _Daily News_ (NY) 4 Nov. (Nexis) 21 (heading) Dem spirits Daschled.]

2004 AmericaLovingCanadian (weblog) 4 Nov., Even though Reid is from a
"red state", he just won re-election, so he will not have to worry about
being "Daschled", at least not for 6 years.
<http://jbloedow.blogspot.com/2004_11_01_jbloedow_archive.html>

2004 Wampum (weblog) 6 Nov., Conrad, despite being an excellent Senator
and the personification of fiscal responsibility, is reasonably likely to
be Daschled.
<http://wampum.wabanaki.net/archives/001354.html>

2004 _New York Times_ 7 Nov. (Week in Review) 3/1 Already, there is a new
verb floating around the Capitol: "Daschled." It describes what can happen
to those, like the Senate Democratic Leader Tom Daschle, who oppose
Republican legislation and then lose re-election in heavily Republican
states. ...  "If we've got troubles in Iraq and the economy's in the
toilet then Democrats are not going to worry about being Daschled," he
said.

2004 Salon War Room (weblog) 8 Nov., But Josh Marshall points out that
even a newcomer like Senator-elect John Thune, empowered by his Daschling
of Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, is dangling the possibility that
Specter will be punished for his sins.
http://archive.salon.com/politics/war_room/2004/11/08/specter/

2004 PaperSpray (weblog) 22 Nov., Daschled - A way to describe someone who
has lost out because of lack of personality and charisma, even though they
may be much more competent than the close-minded Republican asshole who
beat him. "Former Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle was Daschled right
out of his Senate Seat by Tom Thune, a total prick who likes to tout
bibles."
<http://timpratt.blogspot.com/2004/11/hot-words-terms.html>

2005 _Montgomery Advertiser_ (Ala.) 16 Jan. (online) "Getting Daschled" is
now a real concern for many liberal members of Congress in both political
parties, but especially for Democrats. Yet, because their base is so
left-wing, liberal Democrats also fear getting "primaried," that is,
losing to another liberal in their party's primary.
<http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/NEWSV5/storyV5edvoice116w.htm>


--Ben Zimmer


From billyeo2003 at SBCGLOBAL.NET  Tue Feb  8 22:58:55 2005
From: billyeo2003 at SBCGLOBAL.NET (Billy Thomas)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:58:55 -0600
Subject: Mail list
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.165855.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Someone subscribed me to your list and about 300 others.Please take me off of your mail list.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  8 23:12:14 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:12:14 -0500
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <E1CydiW-0000bk-01@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.181214.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WTF, Mark?! Is my writing really so obscure? My whole point is that,
unfortunately, there are some black people, even in academia, who
accept such syllogisms as fully logical and do not - or refuse to -
recognize them as nonsense. If my example syllogism had been logically
true, it would have been totally beside the point. And "All Africans
are black" is likewise false, even if one restricts oneself to
sub-Saharan Africa.

-Wilson

On Feb 8, 2005, at 5:02 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson Gray syllogizes:
>>>>>>
>
> Cleopatra was an Egyptian.
> Egypt is in Africa.
> The black race comes from Africa.
> Therefore, Cleopatra was black.
>  <<<<<
>
> False logic, I'm afraid. Now, if the third line were "All Africans are
> black" it would stand up a lot better.
>
> -- Mark
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Feb  8 23:49:21 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:49:21 -0500
Subject: primary, v.
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.184921.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

All very nice.  You might check out The Barnhart Dictionary Companion
(Vol. 13.1; c. 2000).

Both primary, v. and primarying, v.n. are entered there.  At the time the
only electronic resource we were using was Nexis.  The e.q. (earliest
quote) then was 1980.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com

bgzimmer at rci.rutgers.edu on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 at 5:24 PM -0500
wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU>
>Subject:      primary, v.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>(None of these senses are in the OED yet, or in any of the other major
>dictionaries.  Nothing in _Hatchet Jobs and Hardball_ either.)
>
>
>* primary, v. intr. 'to hold a primary election'
>
>1916 _Fort Wayne News_ (Ind.) 22 July 1/2 Texas Democrats today are
>primarying on everything from prohibition to dog warden and from school
>bonds to United States senator.
>
>
>* primary, v. intr. 'to run in a primary election'
>
>1978 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ (NY) 22 Mar. 25/5 Robert Byrne, who
>previously announced he was considering primarying against Walsh for the
>Republican nomination, is in the race and has set up a committee to draft
>him.
>
>1995 _News-Times_ (Danbury, Conn.) 2 Nov. (online) Winkler primaried to
>win the party's endorsement over a candidate favored by Hapanowich, he
>said.
><http://web.archive.org/web/19970807001939/www.newstimes.com/archive/nov0295/lce.htm>
>
>1997 _Westbury Times_ (NY) 13 Nov. (online) One of the last races I ran
>was up in Albany, where we primaried against their Democratic machine.
><http://www.antonnews.com/westburytimes/1997/11/13/news/>
>
>
>* primary, v. trans. 'to oppose (someone) in a primary election'
>
>1982 _New York Times_ 30 May (Westchester Weekly) 8/6 Then, in 1969, when
>the Board of Legislators was formed out of the old Board of Supervisors, I
>was selected by the Republicans for the Port Chester seat, but John
>primaried me and won - by about 95 votes.
>
>1982 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ (NY) 19 Sep. A8/2 Wortley claims Lee could
>have challenged Democratic Congressman Stanley Lundine in the 34th
>District, or primaried Oneida County Executive Sherwood Boehlert, a
>Republican, in the 25th District.
>
>2005 _Montgomery Advertiser_ (Ala.) 16 Jan. (online) "Getting Daschled" is
>now a real concern for many liberal members of Congress in both political
>parties, but especially for Democrats. Yet, because their base is so
>left-wing, liberal Democrats also fear getting "primaried," that is,
>losing to another liberal in their party's primary.
><http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/NEWSV5/storyV5edvoice116w.htm>
>
>
>And a few nonce forms...
>
>
>* white primaried, ppl. a. 'subjected to all-white primary elections (as
>in the Southern U.S. during the Jim Crow era)'
>
>1904 T. WATSON in C. V. Woodward _Tom Watson_ (1938) 370 What can the
>negro do? He has been disfranchised in nearly every southern state, except
>Georgia, and in Georgia he has been "white primaried."
>[in turn cited by: M. Perlman _Struggle for Mastery_ (2001) 285
><http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/080782593X/>]
>
>
>* outprimaried, ppl. a. 'outwitted or outmaneuvered in a primary election'
>
>1908 _Sandusky Star Journal_ (Ohio) 23 Jan. 8/3 The senator was
>out-primaried, if we may use that term.
>
>
>* unprimaried, ppl. a. 'unopposed in a primary election'
>
>1982 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ (NY) 12 Sep. E2/5 Had Lee decided to run in
>any district other than the 27th, both he and Wortley would probably have
>gone un-primaried into the November election.
>
>
>--Ben Zimmer


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Feb  9 00:07:30 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:07:30 -0600
Subject: Query: dating of "the ugly American"
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.180730.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was asked today whether the phrase "the ugly American" was used prior to the 1958 book by that title authored by William J. Lederer and Eugene Burdick.
Would someone perhaps know?

Gerald Cohen


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Feb  9 01:16:08 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 20:16:08 -0500
Subject: Query: dating of "the ugly American"
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.201608.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jerry,

With only a cursory search, I used "The ugly American" as a search term at
Proquest, and found:

_The Washington Post_  Aug. 1, 1937 Pg. B2/col. 1  (A story about Don Budge,
the tennis star, at Wimbleton)

"Wimbledon crowds that had watched with appreciative eyes the spirited and
determined play of the "ugly" American, in the challenge round against
England and the interzone round against Germany , reflected the world's
respect for the 22-year-old "veteran" by their frequent and congratulatory
applause."

I can't say that the use there is totally clear.  I'll leave that to others.

No doubt Ben will be along and provide much more.

Sam Clements


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 7:07 PM
Subject: Query: dating of "the ugly American"


> I was asked today whether the phrase "the ugly American" was used prior to
the 1958 book by that title authored by William J. Lederer and Eugene
Burdick.
> Would someone perhaps know?
>
> Gerald Cohen
>


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Wed Feb  9 01:22:13 2005
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 19:22:13 -0600
Subject: Staus (was gaper's block)
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.192213.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

They were still called that when I left in 90.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Bergdahl" <einstein at FROGNET.NET>


RE: traffic slowdowns

In Germany 30 yrs ago the slowdowns on the Autobahn were called Staus--n.B.
the English plural--and I was told that it derived from the English word
"stall" but pronounced "shtao".


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Feb  9 01:35:25 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 20:35:25 -0500
Subject: A 19th Century F-Word Use
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.203525.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Gene Weingarten's column, in the Washington Post for 2/6/2005 and syndicated in other newspapers, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55085-2005Feb1.html, reproduces an interesting use of "fucking" from the National Archives:

        <<A page from the census report for the inhabitants of Dade County, Ga., in 1850, lists each resident, his or her age, occupation and place of birth, and whether he or she is "deaf, dumb, blind, insane or idiotic." One page lists several farmers and their families, and four single women: Sarah and Mary Doyle, and Lucinda and Susan Killion. One may assume the census recorder did not approve of these women, or had a perverse sense of humor, or both. In a formal, flowery handwriting similar to that found on, say, the U.S. Constitution, all four women's occupations are listed as: "[F-word]ing.">>

        Weingarten indicated in an online chat today that the archivists were astonished to find the term.  Presumably they brought it to his attention for use in his humor column.

John Baker


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  9 02:18:47 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:18:47 -0800
Subject: Query: dating of "the ugly American"
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.181847.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, the it's the hero of Lederer & Burdick's novel who's physically unattractive ("ugly") but who connects with the Asian locals in a genuine way while his glamorous colleagues are fouling up and giving America a bad name at every turn.

As used since then, the phrase refers to  Americans abroad whose attitude toward foreign societies is arrogant and "ugly" in the metaphorical sense. Not, evidently, what L & B had in mind - except perhaps as irony.

If the above is the whole story, then it would be quite surprising to find a citation antedating the novel.

JL

"Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard"
Subject: Query: dating of "the ugly American"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was asked today whether the phrase "the ugly American" was used prior to the 1958 book by that title authored by William J. Lederer and Eugene Burdick.
Would someone perhaps know?

Gerald Cohen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  9 02:22:19 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:22:19 -0800
Subject: A 19th Century F-Word Use
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.182219.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Now if they'd found it used as an "adjective of extreme contumely" in 1850 - THAT would've been something!

JL

"Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Baker, John"
Subject: A 19th Century F-Word Use
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gene Weingarten's column, in the Washington Post for 2/6/2005 and syndicated in other newspapers, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55085-2005Feb1.html, reproduces an interesting use of "fucking" from the National Archives:

<>

Weingarten indicated in an online chat today that the archivists were astonished to find the term. Presumably they brought it to his attention for use in his humor column.

John Baker


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo!


From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM  Wed Feb  9 04:15:36 2005
From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Le May)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 22:15:36 -0600
Subject: Burma Shave
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.221536.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Browsing "Brewer's Dictionary of Twentieth-Century Phrase and Fable", I
happened upon this just now, under 'epitaph':

Beneath this slab
John Brown is stowed.
He watched the ads
And not the road.
                  Ogden Nash, "Lather as You Go"


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Feb  9 04:48:25 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 20:48:25 -0800
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
In-Reply-To: <003b01c50e29$3885fbc0$6400a8c0@Adelle3>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.204825.0800.>

> Check your local library's website.  The Columbus (OH) public
> library offers access to OED online if you have a library card.

Ditto for the San Francisco Public Library. Anyone with a California
driver's license can get a card and with it online access to the OED,
Proquest Historical NY Times, and a bunch of other online databases. But you
have to apply in person, so it's realistically limited to locals.

As for free online dictionaries, I tend to use Merriam Webster. The reason I
prefer it to American Heritage is that the URL is easier to type. That's if
I'm just checking spelling or a definition. If I'm seriously looking at a
word, I'll consult both.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb  9 04:59:21 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 23:59:21 -0500
Subject: Alreet (1938); Frontier Folksay (1977)
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.235921.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ALREET

Ben writes:

"Reet, Petite, and Gone" (the Louis Jordan song and the movie of the same
name) didn't appear until 1947.  More likely, the Down Beat article was
referencing Cab Calloway's 1941 song "Are You All Reet?", a compendium of
hep-cat slang...


What about Gene Krupa?

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Title: Wire brush stomp
Author(s): Krupa, Gene, 1909-1973.  (Performer - prf); O'Day, Anita. ; (Performer - prf); Daye, Irene. ; (Performer - prf); DuLany, Howard. ; (Performer - prf); Watson, Leo,; 1898-1950. ; (Performer - prf)
Publication: [United States] :; Bandstand Records,
Year: 1974, 1938
Description: 1 sound disc :; analog, 33 1/3 rpm ;; 12 in.
Language: English
Music Type: Jazz; Multiple forms; Popular music
Standard No: Publisher: BS-7117; Bandstand
Contents: The madame swings it -- Jam on toast -- Bolero at the Savoy -- Murdy purdy -- Nagasaki -- Some like it hot -- Meet the beat of my heart -- Marchetta -- Symphony in riffs -- Alreet -- Wire brush stomp -- Slow down -- Flamingo -- Manhattan transfer -- Watch the birdie -- The big do.

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Title: [Songs /
Author(s): Calloway, Cab, 1907- ; Palmer, Jack. ; Clark, Allan. ; Mills, Irving,; 1894-1985. ; (Lyricist - lyr); Gaskill, Clarence,; 1892-1947. ; Akst, Harry,; 1894-1963. ; (Lyricist - lyr); Arlen, Harold,; 1905-1986. ; Koehler, Ted,; 1894-1973. ; (Lyricist - lyr); Parish, Mitchell. ; (Lyricist - lyr); Perkins, Frank,; 1908- ; Bloom, Rube. ; Redman, Don. ; Ram, Buck. ; Stone, Jessie,; 1901- ; Fowler, Lem. ; Davis, Benny,; 1895-1979. ; Coots, J. Fred,; 1897- ; Gibson, Andy,; 1913-1961. ; Theard, Sam,; 1904- ; Nemo, Henry,; 1914- ; (Lyricist - lyr)
Year: 1931-1942
Description: 11 scores :; ill. (some col.) ;; 32 cm. or smaller.
Language: English
Music Type: Songs
Contents: Are yow in love with me again? -- Are yow all reet! -- Cab Calloway's jive jubilee of songs -- I like music -- Jonah joins the Cab -- The Jumpin' jive (Hep-hep!) -- Lady with the fan -- Lavender languor -- Minnie the moocher (The Ho de ho song) -- The Seat song (Scat 'n 'skeet 'n' hi de hi) (2 copies).

--------------------------------------------------------------
FRONTIER FOLKSAY:
PROVERBIAL LORE OF THE INLAND PACIFIC NORTHWEST FRONTIER
by Donald M. Hines
Norwood Editions
1977

I've been looking at this book. Lots of nice stuff.

Pg. 40:
"What did the children of Isreal eat in the desert?--They ate the sand which is (sandwiches) there."
(CC4 #39, 21 June 1889 p. 6 FUNNY SIDE OF LIFE); cf. Loomis, "Wordplay," p. 239: "Why do people go to Gibb's and to California? Because of the _sand_-_which_-_is_ there (29 December 1848)."

Pg. 106:
"A lean agreement is better than a fat law suit." (WWU 8 #29, 21 Oct 1876 p 4, PROVERBS OF THE AGES [ITAL.].) Cf. Oxford 314 I11.

Pg. 131:
"Better to be a live coward than a dead hero." (Heard during 1961 from Mr. Ben Ensely, Tualatin, Ore.) Cf. Brown I 388; cf. Barbour 41 #3.

(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Atlanta Constitution  Monday, March 27, 1905 Atlanta, Georgia
...I would prefer to be known as a LIVE COWARD rather than a DEAD HERO. You say.....the artistic AND literary of Boston AND New York the past foil AND winter..

   Nebraska State Journal  Saturday, June 17, 1899 Lincoln, Nebraska
...that he would much rather be a LIVE COWARD than a DEAD HERO. Instead of.....talking of DEAD statecraft, DEAD conditions AND DEAD statesmen AND..

   Nebraska State Journal  Tuesday, May 03, 1898 Lincoln, Nebraska
...slaters AND sweethearts that a LIVE COWARD Is worth more to them than a DEAD.....cities. It allows the men to ratrmin HERO for another week at Imist. AND thfn..

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
WHY HE LOST HIS BRIDE.; He Ran Away from Battle and Hid In a Hollow Log.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 16, 1890. p. 9 (1 page):
"I'd rather a -- sight be a live coward than a dead hero."

(To be continued)


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Feb  9 06:32:54 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 01:32:54 -0500
Subject: Alreet (1938); Frontier Folksay (1977)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.013254.0500.>

On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 23:59:21 -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>ALREET
>
>Ben writes:
>
>"Reet, Petite, and Gone" (the Louis Jordan song and the movie of the same
>name) didn't appear until 1947.  More likely, the Down Beat article was
>referencing Cab Calloway's 1941 song "Are You All Reet?", a compendium of
>hep-cat slang...
>
>What about Gene Krupa?
>
>(OCLC WORLDCAT)
>Title: Wire brush stomp
>Author(s): Krupa, Gene, 1909-1973.  (Performer - prf); O'Day, Anita. ;
(Performer - prf); Daye, Irene. ; (Performer - prf); DuLany, Howard. ;
(Performer - prf); Watson, Leo,; 1898-1950. ; (Performer - prf)
>Publication: [United States] :; Bandstand Records,
>Year: 1974, 1938
>Description: 1 sound disc :; analog, 33 1/3 rpm ;; 12 in.
>Language: English
>Music Type: Jazz; Multiple forms; Popular music
>Standard No: Publisher: BS-7117; Bandstand
>Contents: The madame swings it -- Jam on toast -- Bolero at the Savoy --
>Murdy purdy -- Nagasaki -- Some like it hot -- Meet the beat of my heart
>-- Marchetta -- Symphony in riffs -- Alreet -- Wire brush stomp -- Slow
>down -- Flamingo -- Manhattan transfer -- Watch the birdie -- The big do.

"Wire Brush Stomp" was evidently an LP that compiled recordings by Krupa
dating from 1938 to 1941.  Note the years on the album cover:
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:aa4gtq3znu4p

According to this seemingly authoritative site, "Alreet" was recorded in
March 1941:

  http://www.gkrp.net/1941.html
  Gene Krupa & his Orchestra: New York, March 12, 1941
  CO-29921-1     Alreet - vAOD/aEH     Okeh 6118

I think "all reet" could have achieved WOTY status in 1941...  Besides
Krupa and Calloway, Duke Ellington and Earl Hines also used it that year:

   "Five O'Clock Drag" (Duke Ellington) - recorded Sept. 26, 1941
   Five O'clock Drag is jumpin'
   The drummer man's beat is thumpin';
   Five O'clock Drag is sumpin'
   That really does "all reet."
   http://www.searchlyrics.org/duke_ellington/five_o'clock_drag.html
   http://www.depanorama.net/1940s1.htm

   "The Jitney Man" (Earl Hines) - recorded Nov. 17, 1941
   Oh, I can drive I can,
   Behind this wheel I'm the man,
   Take it easy in your seat,
   Everything will be all reet,
   Holly-la-ally-ah
   I'm the jitney man!
   http://heptune.com/jitneyma.html

Looks like Calloway was the trendsetter, though, as his song was recorded
on Jan. 16, 1941, according to <http://heptune.com/lyrics/areyoual.html>.

--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb  9 06:59:38 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 01:59:38 -0500
Subject: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.015938.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NEW YORK FOLKLORE QUARTERLY, vol. 26, no. 3, Sept. 1970
FROM ADVICE TO LAMENTS ONCE AGAIN:
NEW YORK AUTOGRAPH ALBUM VERSE: 1850-1900

W. K. McNEIL

Pg. 168:
The two most frequently appearing variants were:

Remember me ever.
Forget me never.
And think of your friend
Forever and ever.
(NOTES: inscription by Jesse Jones dated 1882--ed.)

and

Rmember me early
Remember me late.
Remember me ever,
Your old school-mate.

Pg. 185:
to those which were obviously intended to provoke laughter:

All that is made by an old maid
Is a pretty good glass of lemonade.
(NOTES: inscription by Dave dated June 2, 1878. Almost made in the shade! Maybe it was just old Minute Maid Lemonade--ed.)

Pg. 189:
to the inexplicable:

Salt is good,
Cake is better,
But not as good,
As red hot pepper.
(NOTES: Manuscript, autograph album of Julia Van Ness Clark of Ithaca, New York covering the years 1866-1868, inscription by S. V. R. Hayward. It's not inexplicable! It's an early citation for the popular jump-rope rhyme! Maybe NYFQ needed an editor--ed.)

Pg. 195:
Unquestionably the most popular of the formulae rhymes was:

YYUR
YYUB
ICUR
YY4me.

Translated this reads:

Too wise you are
Too wise you be
I see you are
Too wise for me.

--------------------------------------------------------------
NEW YORK FOLKLORE QUARTERLY, vol. 25, no. 3, Sept. 1969
Pg. 221:

SOME RHYMES, GAMES, AND SONGS FROM CHILDREN IN THE NEW ROCHELLE AREA

BARBARA CASTAGNA

The following is a listing of a variety of rhymes, songs, games and riddles collected in New ROchelle, New York, in April, 1969, from children between the ages of three and twelve.
(...)
(Jump Rope Rhymes--ed.)
----&--- sitting in a tree
K-I-S-S-I-N-G
First comes loves
Then comes marriage
Then comes ___ pushing a baby carriage

Pg. 224:
Lemon and lime
Said to be on time
(the leader does 1)
2, 3, 4, 5,...

Pg. 225:
House, house, house for sale
The man upstairs is drinking gin
And drinking gin is a very bad sin
So I moved out and _Debbie_ moved in.

Pg. 227 (Counting-Out Rhymes):
Ink-a-dink, a bottle of ink
The cork fell out and you stink.
Not because you're dirty.
Not because you're clean.
Just because you kissed a girl behind a magazine.

Pg. 228 (Jeer or Teasing Rhymes):
_Tony_ balogna
Full of macaroni

_Joanie_ is a dope
She ate a piece of soap.
Bubbles here, bubbles there
Bubbles in her underwear.

Suck your toe
And go to Mexico

Pg. 229:
Baby, baby
Stick your head in gravy.
Wash it out with bubble gum (Or "kerosene"--ed.)
And send it to the Navy.

I see London
I see France
I see (_somebody's_) underpants.
Not so big, not so small
Just the size of a cannon ball.

(Autograph Rhymes--ed.)

Roses are red
Lincoln is dead
His cabin is empty
And so is your head

Violets are blue
And I turned red
As soon as I saw you nude in bed

Pg. 230:
Can't think
Brain dumb
Inspiration won't come

Bad ink
Bad pen
Best wishes, Amen

Pg. 231 (Songs):
Ten whole pounds of greasy grimy gopher's guts
Mutilated monkey's meat
Itsy bitsy birdies feet
Five whole pounds of all purpose porpoise pus
All in Mulligan's stew
Luckily I forgot the spoons
But we have s-t-r-a-w-s.

Jingle bells
Santa smells
Fifteen miles away
Oh! what fun it is to ride
In a broken Chevrolet.

Pg. 233:
Hurray! for horse manure
I got it from the sewer
Horse manure is fun to eat
We gave it up for trick or treat
Hurray! for horse manure.

Pg. 234:
Glory, glory hallelujah
Teacher hit me with a ruler
Hid behind the door with a loaded forty-four
And the teacher taught no more.

Glory, glory hallelujah
The teacher hit me with a ruler
The ruler turned red
And the teacher dropped dead
His truth is marching on.

My eyes have seen the glory
Of the burning of the school
We have tortured all the teachers
We have broken all the rules
We have tried to kill the principal
Tomorrow afternoon
His truth is marching on.

(Circle Game--ed.)

Little Sally Saucer
Sitting in the water
Rise, Sally, rise
Wipe off your eyes Sally.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
SOUNDS OF A SUMMER CAMP
HERBERT MITGANG.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 14, 1959. p. X17 (1 page):
In _THe SOunds of Camp_, counselors and kids do the talking. For example, the waterfront man calls out a "buddy check," as hundreds of children are swimming. The made-up lyrics that sweep a camp are included; here it is something called "Great Green Globs of Greasy Grimy Gopher Guts."

(It's from Folkways. Maybe this or _Songs of Camp_ has "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" and other classics?--ed.)

(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
Merry's Monthly Chat with his Friends.; ANSWERS TO PUZZLES IN APRIL NO. ANAGRAMS. ENIGMA. CONUNDRUMS. ENIGMA. PUZZLE. CONUNDRUM. ENIGMA. ENIGMA BY E. A. ROOT, BINGHAMPTON. CHARADES. ENIGMA BY C. M. S., PROVIDENCE. ENIGMA BY HENRY FULLER, TRENTON. CONUNDRUMS. ENIGMA. PUZZLE. ANAGRAMS BY L. C., OF CINCINNATI. CONUNDRUM. PUZZLE. CONUNDRUMS BY LIZZIE. ARITHMETICAL QUESTION, BY ANNIE.
Merry's Museum and Parley's Magazine (1852-1857). Boston: Jan 1, 1853. Vol. 25; p. 162 (3 pages)
Second page:
PUZZLE.
"Y y u r y y u b I c u r y y for me."

Merry's Monthly Chat with his Friends.; CONUNDRUMS. PUZZLE. ANAGRAMS BY GEORGE OF SYRACUSE. CONUNDRUM.
Merry's Museum and Parley's Magazine (1852-1857). Boston: Jan 1, 1853. Vol. 25; p. 195 (2 pages)
Second page:
To Mary's puzzle, which is, "too wise you are, too wise you be, I see you are too wise for me."

(Something is wrong. These are not both January 1, 1853--ed.)


From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM  Wed Feb  9 07:21:56 2005
From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 01:21:56 -0600
Subject: blawg -- new to me
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.012156.0600.>

 From http://blawg.com:

Blawg, n, a weblog with emphasis on the law or legal related issues and
concerns, often maintained by an individual who studies, practices or
otherwise works in the legal field.

--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Decluttering: http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb  9 07:30:14 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 02:30:14 -0500
Subject: blawg -- new to me
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.023014.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(FACTIVA)
Lawyers who 'blawg'

Jason Krause
1,837 words
1 March 2003
ABA Journal
42
ISSN: 0747-0088
English
Copyright (c) 2003 ProQuest Information and Learning. All rights reserved. Copyright American Bar Association Mar 2003

LEGAL WEB LOGS

Attorneys Are Finding Fans (and Some Fame) Posting Legal Commentary on the Net

I'VE STARTED GETTING FAN MAIL now," says Martin Schwimmer, publisher of the Web log called the Trademark Blog. "It's safe to say that I got virtually no fan letters when I was just a trademark lawyer.

Schwimmer is one of a few savvy legal professioals who have found that by self-publishing logs on the Internet, they can attract a wide audience hungry for information about even some of the more obscure legal topics.

Web logs, or blogs for short. are simple Web pages where anyone can collect links to interesting articles and publish personal comentary. Blogs, sometimes spelled "blawgs" in a legal context, have become a popular way for lawyers to keep up with legal news and trends. Think of bloggers as people who surf the Web so you don't have to, collecting the most interesting and newsworthy information in one place, complete with explanatory text.

Web logs like Schwimmer's site or Howard Bashman's How Appealing are proving that even arcane areas of the law are endlessly fertile ground for commentary and can have a broad appeal. After journalists, in fact, lawyers and law professors publish some of the best-- known Web logs. Instapundit by Glenn Reynolds, a University of Tennessee law professor, is one of the most popular blogs on the planet. However, his is more of a general interest publication, and this article profiles only practicing lawyers and law professionals who blog about legal issues (yes, "blog" has already entered the vernacular as a verb).

Why have lawyers taken to blogging? "To me it may not be entirely practical, but lawyers are a gregarious people," says Eugene Volokh, a UCLA law professor who writes the Volokh Conspiracy. "A lot of them don't have an outlet for their interests. Blawgs give them that."

(...)


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Feb  9 08:08:22 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 03:08:22 -0500
Subject: blawg -- new to me
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.030822.0500.>

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 02:30:14 -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>(FACTIVA)
>Lawyers who 'blawg'
>
>Jason Krause
>1,837 words
>1 March 2003
>ABA Journal
>42

-----
Law Practice Management, July/August 2002, Vol. 28; No. 5; Pg. 8
Denise Howell, a lawyer with Crosby Heafey Roach & May, has a weblog
called "Bag and Baggage" (http://bgbg.blogspot.com). As of this writing,
she maintains the most exhaustive list of law blogs, which she calls
"blawgs." It includes the blogs of more than 35 judges, lawyers, law
students and law professors.
-----

A quick search on Howell's page finds that she had started using the term
"blawg" frequently by April 2002:

-----
http://bgbg.blogspot.com/2002_03_31_bgbg_archive.html

April 04, 2002
Blawg Additions: Some cool blawgs join the roster today...

April 06, 2002
So staggering that my attempt to keep a comprehensive "blawg"-alogue
probably is doomed from the get-go.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Feb  9 08:35:30 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 03:35:30 -0500
Subject: blawg -- new to me
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.033530.0500.>

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 03:08:22 -0500, I wrote:

>-----
>Law Practice Management, July/August 2002, Vol. 28; No. 5; Pg. 8
>Denise Howell, a lawyer with Crosby Heafey Roach & May, has a weblog
>called "Bag and Baggage" (http://bgbg.blogspot.com). As of this writing,
>she maintains the most exhaustive list of law blogs, which she calls
>"blawgs." It includes the blogs of more than 35 judges, lawyers, law
>students and law professors.
>-----
>
>A quick search on Howell's page finds that she had started using the term
>"blawg" frequently by April 2002:
>
>-----
>http://bgbg.blogspot.com/2002_03_31_bgbg_archive.html
>
>April 04, 2002
>Blawg Additions: Some cool blawgs join the roster today...
>
>April 06, 2002
>So staggering that my attempt to keep a comprehensive "blawg"-alogue
>probably is doomed from the get-go.
>-----

Whoops-- she started using "blawg" at least a month earlier:

-----
http://bgbg.blogspot.com/2002/03/what-is-it-and-blogging-law.html
March 05, 2002
As demonstrable evidence, I submit some new "Blawg" additions to the Menage.
-----
http://howlingpoint.net/life/index.php?m=20020305
March 05, 2002
Denise Howell made a very friendly post, sent a very flattering e-mail and
linked us from her law-oriented blog, Bag and Baggage. We’re not just
mentioned, but listed in her Blawg list.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Wed Feb  9 09:11:31 2005
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 04:11:31 -0500
Subject: neck-tie carnival
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.041131.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Seems to me that I have seen other instances of this euphemism for
lynching, but I can't place them...


http://www.ausbcomp.com/~bbott/cowley/oldnews/papersup/cour31.htm

Winfield Courier, February 1, 1883.
[Winfield Kansas]

>Our most excellent Sheriff's many warm friends in this community deeply
>regret the terrible calamity that has befallen him. They are highly
>incensed toward the
>heartless villain who so desperately attacked his life. It was a thousand
>pities that this embryonic desperado was not given the benefit of a
>neck-tie carnival. While
>we respect the law of the land, and believe in maintaining its dignity; at
>the same time we think it a wholesome idea to purify the country of
>atrocious, reckless,
>infamous dare-devils by summarily dispatching several of them in a manner
>that would be a forcible reminder and an impressive warning to bandits,
>outlaws, and
>vicious characters generally. It is to be hoped that Cowley County will
>not be thus ruthlessly deprived of her brave and noble Sheriff, and that
>the feelings of her
>honored citizens may not be sorely grieved by any sad ending of this
>tragical affair. HORATIUS.

Michael McKernan


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Wed Feb  9 11:50:30 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:50:30 +0000
Subject: pernil
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.115030.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Don't know whether 'pernil' is in the dictionary, not having access to OED
online, but here's a citation:

'The Casio returned with more weed and ate her pernil [italicised in
original] and avocado and they smoked again and went to bed.'
- Bruce Benderson, 'User', Plume/Penguin, NY, 1995, 35

-Neil Crawford


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Wed Feb  9 12:10:36 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:10:36 +0000
Subject: cerebrally challenged
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.121036.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is anyone collecting this sort of stuff?

'I wasn't certain she had both oars in the water.'
-Lawrence Sanders, 'The Eighth Commandment', New English Library, London,
1986, 147

'Again, I reflected that her back burners were not fully operative.'
-ibid, 159


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Feb  9 12:12:45 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 07:12:45 -0500
Subject: neck-tie social (new sense?)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.071245.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DARE has

necktie party (of course)
necktie frolic (Carson Valley News, 1876)
necktie sociable (Harper's New Monthly, 1871)
necktie party (National Geographic, 1882)
necktie social (n.q.--but ...

In the evening, Mr. Jas. Montgomery gave a necktie soical in aid of the
enterprise, realizing $11.65.  An extensive and bountiful table was set in
the school house, and, after ample justice was done to it, the meeting was
called to order by Mr. Chas. House, of Pigeon Lake, who discharged the
duties of chairman in a very able and most pleasing manner.  Manitoba
Daily Free Press, Jan. 15, 1880, p 1

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Wednesday, February
09, 2005 at 4:11 AM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Michael McKernan <mckernan at LOCALNET.COM>
>Subject:      neck-tie carnival
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Seems to me that I have seen other instances of this euphemism for
>lynching, but I can't place them...
>
>
>http://www.ausbcomp.com/~bbott/cowley/oldnews/papersup/cour31.htm
>
>Winfield Courier, February 1, 1883.
>[Winfield Kansas]
>
>>Our most excellent Sheriff's many warm friends in this community deeply
>>regret the terrible calamity that has befallen him. They are highly
>>incensed toward the
>>heartless villain who so desperately attacked his life. It was a thousand
>>pities that this embryonic desperado was not given the benefit of a
>>neck-tie carnival. While
>>we respect the law of the land, and believe in maintaining its dignity;
>at
>>the same time we think it a wholesome idea to purify the country of
>>atrocious, reckless,
>>infamous dare-devils by summarily dispatching several of them in a manner
>>that would be a forcible reminder and an impressive warning to bandits,
>>outlaws, and
>>vicious characters generally. It is to be hoped that Cowley County will
>>not be thus ruthlessly deprived of her brave and noble Sheriff, and that
>>the feelings of her
>>honored citizens may not be sorely grieved by any sad ending of this
>>tragical affair. HORATIUS.
>
>Michael McKernan


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Wed Feb  9 13:12:12 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:12:12 +0000
Subject: ? for Tom Dalzell
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.131212.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In 'The Slang of Sin' did you really mean 'stroke' the furnace (as printed)
for female masturbation - or is it a misprint for 'stoke'?

-Neil Crawford


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Feb  9 13:46:18 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 08:46:18 -0500
Subject: necktie social (=hanging, 1888)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.084618.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An Arizona Necktie Social.  “Hello!  What’s this?” asked a benevolent
resident of an Arizona town, as he came suddenly upon a necktie social in
full blast.
“Just stringin up a dude,” explained one of the party, as he took a better
hold on the rope.
“Wall, that’s nawthin’ to hang a man fer.”
“But he’s from Boston.”
“Wall, don’t hang the poor feller fer that.  Yer see he left the place.”
“An’ he’s stole a hoss.”
“So hev the most of us, pardners.”
“An’ he dropped Red Shirt Dick, this mornin’.  Killed him dead as a
doornail.”
“Oh, that nawthin’,” persisted the benevolent resident.
“An’ he sez eye-ther and nigh-ther.”
“You don’t say!” exclaimed the benevolent chap, excitedly.  “Up he goes!
Pull on that rope lively.”
Fitchburg Sentinel [Mass.] (NewspaperArchive.com), March 24, 1888, p 2


From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Wed Feb  9 14:24:50 2005
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:24:50 -0500
Subject: neck-tie social (new sense?)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.092450.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David Barnhart wrote:

>DARE has
>
>necktie party (of course)
>necktie frolic (Carson Valley News, 1876)
>necktie sociable (Harper's New Monthly, 1871)
>necktie party (National Geographic, 1882)
>necktie social (n.q.--but ...

These are all forms of a social event, AKA 'necktie and apron party', where
the fabric used to construct a necktie (for a man) and an apron or other
garment (for a woman> were used as a 'blind' partnering device, with the
men bidding on the neckties, and ended up partnered with the woman of the
apron (etc.).  Most commonly, these were social dance events; the
apron/necktie partnering, as with all social dance partnering in the
Euro-American traditions, was a form of mock-marriage.

In the 'necktie carnival' cited below, however, the implication is very
different, in keeping with Barnhart's later citation:

>An Arizona Necktie Social.  ìHello!  Whatís this?î asked a benevolent
>resident of an Arizona town, as he came suddenly upon a necktie social in
>full blast.
>ìJust stringin up a dude,î explained one of the party, as he took a better
>hold on the rope.
>ìWall, thatís nawthiní to hang a man fer.î
>ìBut heís from Boston.î
>ìWall, donít hang the poor feller fer that.  Yer see he left the place.î
>ìAní heís stole a hoss.î
>ìSo hev the most of us, pardners.î
>ìAní he dropped Red Shirt Dick, this morniní.  Killed him dead as a
>doornail.î
>ìOh, that nawthiní,î persisted the benevolent resident.
>ìAní he sez eye-ther and nigh-ther.î
>ìYou donít say!î exclaimed the benevolent chap, excitedly.  ìUp he goes!
>Pull on that rope lively.î
>Fitchburg Sentinel [Mass.] (NewspaperArchive.com), March 24, 1888, p 2

Seems that the title of the social event has been comandeered as a cute
phrase for lynching...

>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Michael McKernan <mckernan at LOCALNET.COM>
>>Subject:      neck-tie carnival
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>-
>>
>>Seems to me that I have seen other instances of this euphemism for
>>lynching, but I can't place them...
>>
>>
>>http://www.ausbcomp.com/~bbott/cowley/oldnews/papersup/cour31.htm
>>
>>Winfield Courier, February 1, 1883.
>>[Winfield Kansas]
>>
>>>Our most excellent Sheriff's many warm friends in this community deeply
>>>regret the terrible calamity that has befallen him. They are highly
>>>incensed toward the
>>>heartless villain who so desperately attacked his life. It was a thousand
>>>pities that this embryonic desperado was not given the benefit of a
>>>neck-tie carnival. While
>>>we respect the law of the land, and believe in maintaining its dignity;
>>at
>>>the same time we think it a wholesome idea to purify the country of
>>>atrocious, reckless,
>>>infamous dare-devils by summarily dispatching several of them in a manner
>>>that would be a forcible reminder and an impressive warning to bandits,
>>>outlaws, and
>>>vicious characters generally. It is to be hoped that Cowley County will
>>>not be thus ruthlessly deprived of her brave and noble Sheriff, and that
>>>the feelings of her
>>>honored citizens may not be sorely grieved by any sad ending of this
>>>tragical affair. HORATIUS.
>>
>>Michael McKernan


Michael McKernan


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb  9 14:25:47 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:25:47 -0500
Subject: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
In-Reply-To: <E1CylpB-0001u6-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.092547.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:59 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>
> Little Sally Saucer
> Sitting in the water
> Rise, Sally, rise
> Wipe off your eyes Sally.
>

An alternative version from East Texas (I learned it there, but, given
that variations of this variation appear in black pop music, e.g. the
couplet, "Put your hands on your hips / And let your backbone slip"
occurs in the 1959 song, "The Booty Green," I think that it is/was
universal amongst the colored. Since I learned this from my mother,
who's now 91, I'd guess that this version is probably at least a
century old.)

Little Sally Walker
Sitting in a saucer
Rise, Sally, Rise
Wipe your weeping eyes
Put your hands on your hips
And let your backbone slip
Shake it to the east
Shake it to the west
Shake it to the one
You love the best

-Wilson Gray


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb  9 14:31:32 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:31:32 -0500
Subject: necktie social (=hanging, 1888)
In-Reply-To: <E1CysAg-0001gH-00@mx19.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.093132.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I recall "necktie party" as a common cliche heard in the horse-operas
of the '40's. "Necktie carnival" and "necktie social" are new to me.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 9, 2005, at 8:46 AM, Barnhart wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
> Subject:      necktie social (=hanging, 1888)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> An Arizona Necktie Social.  “Hello!  What’s this?” asked a benevolent
> resident of an Arizona town, as he came suddenly upon a necktie social
> in
> full blast.
> “Just stringin up a dude,” explained one of the party, as he took a
> better
> hold on the rope.
> “Wall, that’s nawthin’ to hang a man fer.”
> “But he’s from Boston.”
> “Wall, don’t hang the poor feller fer that.  Yer see he left the
> place.”
> “An’ he’s stole a hoss.”
> “So hev the most of us, pardners.”
> “An’ he dropped Red Shirt Dick, this mornin’.  Killed him dead as a
> doornail.”
> “Oh, that nawthin’,” persisted the benevolent resident.
> “An’ he sez eye-ther and nigh-ther.”
> “You don’t say!” exclaimed the benevolent chap, excitedly.  “Up he
> goes!
> Pull on that rope lively.”
> Fitchburg Sentinel [Mass.] (NewspaperArchive.com), March 24, 1888, p 2
>


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Feb  9 15:07:28 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:07:28 -0500
Subject: Reuters article on Scamto, new South African slang
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.100728.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

see http://tinyurl.com/4uvxc for complete article.

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

--------

Slang Symbol of New Diversity

By Rebecca Harrison

JOHANNESBURG (Reuters) - Fancy some Jesus and his brothers, or a ride in a 
g-string? And why is it that abantu abu baie bane kwal'nge-cherry?

This is South Africa's latest street slang -- a mix of the 11 official 
languages with nicknames thrown in for beer, cars, weapons and sexual 
positions that has grown out of the country's sprawling townships.

Hailed by its fans as a symbol of the country's diversity 11 years after the 
end of apartheid, "scamto" has become the language of choice for South 
Africa's black urban youth and its first exhaustive guide is due out next 
month.

"It's real, it's raw, and it captures the diversity and confidence of the 
new South Africa," said 24-year-old advertising executive Lebo Motshegoa 
from Soweto, the author of "Township Talk: The People, the Language, the 
Culture."

 	[...]

02/08/05 08:32

© Copyright Reuters Ltd


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  9 15:09:56 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 07:09:56 -0800
Subject: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.070956.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson, does "The Booty Green" (1959) contain an ex. of "booty" = sex?

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:59 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>
> Little Sally Saucer
> Sitting in the water
> Rise, Sally, rise
> Wipe off your eyes Sally.
>

An alternative version from East Texas (I learned it there, but, given
that variations of this variation appear in black pop music, e.g. the
couplet, "Put your hands on your hips / And let your backbone slip"
occurs in the 1959 song, "The Booty Green," I think that it is/was
universal amongst the colored. Since I learned this from my mother,
who's now 91, I'd guess that this version is probably at least a
century old.)

Little Sally Walker
Sitting in a saucer
Rise, Sally, Rise
Wipe your weeping eyes
Put your hands on your hips
And let your backbone slip
Shake it to the east
Shake it to the west
Shake it to the one
You love the best

-Wilson Gray


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Feb  9 15:21:26 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:21:26 -0500
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <20050209050218.F3F95B2630@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.102126.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Patti J. Kurtz" <kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET> corrects me:
   >>>>>
A is no longer reserved for military-- my husband's call sign starts
with A (AB0ZB)  They changed a lot of that when they went from FCC
examiners to amateurs doing the testing.  But the numbers do still
indicate the region of the US  (0 being the Upper Midwest)
 <<<<<

But I have heard that when a ham moves from one part of the country to
another, they* can now take their old call sign along without appending "/n"
= "portable n" (n = the number of their new region), with the result that
the region number now tells you only where they lived when they qualified
for their license, not where they are now. Can your OM confirm this for me?

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
* plural for epicene singular. Wanna make something of it?


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Wed Feb  9 15:26:51 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:26:51 -0600
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <200502091021.665420a2a772fe@rly-nc01.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.092651.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, Mark-- that is true.  My husband had a 7 call sign in Idaho and
when we moved to Ohio, he kept it.  He only changed his call when we
came here voluntarily.  (not sure why)  So the region number may tell
you where they live, if they voluntarily (or what's called
systematically) change their call sign when they move or upgrade to a
higher level (my husband's an Extra class)  or it may tell you only
where they lived when they got their license initially.

BTW the higher you go in the levels, the shorter the call sign gets,
too.  Typically, the longer call signs are used for the novices.)

Patti

mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU wrote:

>But I have heard that when a ham moves from one part of the country to
>another, they* can now take their old call sign along without appending "/n"
>= "portable n" (n = the number of their new region), with the result that
>the region number now tells you only where they lived when they qualified
>for their license, not where they are now. Can your OM confirm this for me?
>
>-- Mark
>[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>* plural for epicene singular. Wanna make something of it?
>
>

--

Dr. Patti J. Kurtz

Assistant Professor, English

Director of the Writing Center

Minot State University

Minot, ND 58707



Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that.



Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims
that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program?



Foster: But we are RIGHT!



Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough.


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Feb  9 15:33:01 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:33:01 -0500
Subject: The stink/The stank
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.103301.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> boggles:
    >>>>>
  WTF, Mark?! Is my writing really so obscure? My whole point is that,
unfortunately, there are some black people, even in academia, who
accept such syllogisms as fully logical and do not - or refuse to -
recognize them as nonsense. If my example syllogism had been logically
true, it would have been totally beside the point. And "All Africans
are black" is likewise false, even if one restricts oneself to
sub-Saharan Africa.
  <<<<<

Sorry, Wilson. It's not so much that your writing is obscure as that I am
sometimes obtuse, at least in inferring irony. I was, indeed, rather
seriously surprised to see such nonsense over your signature. Obviously I
missed the point. And in fact I even rewrote my criticism to ameliorate it,
limiting it to the logical structure and ignoring the ethnographic facts.

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From sales at LIFELINKNET.COM  Wed Feb  9 16:40:54 2005
From: sales at LIFELINKNET.COM (David Blanco)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 08:40:54 -0800
Subject: Mail list
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.084054.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We purchase list for a "one time mailing" and are allowed to maintain the
name only if the customer responds to our solicitation.  You are not on any
current list of ours.

Sincerely,
David Blanco
----- Original Message -----
From: "Billy Thomas" <billyeo2003 at SBCGLOBAL.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: Mail list


Someone subscribed me to your list and about 300 others.Please take me off
of your mail list.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Feb  9 17:48:36 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:48:36 -0800
Subject: Nathan Bierma on Northern Cities Shift
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.094836.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

... with an appearance by Our DInIs:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi
-0502090260feb09,1,7163783.story


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Feb  9 18:09:25 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:09:25 -0500
Subject: Daschled
In-Reply-To: <40962.69.142.143.59.1107904100.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutger s.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.130925.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This was part of a letter sent out by Anne Lewis of the DSCC just today,
with reference to Sen Harry Reid:
Republicans are again playing their tired old game of trying to
demonize--in their words "Daschle-ize"--anyone who disagrees with them.

This implies that the Republicans are consciously using this verb form, at
least.


At 06:08 PM 2/8/2005, you wrote:
>This one was already noted by the good folks at Experimental Linguistics:
><http://expling.blogspot.com/2004/11/daschledandcheneyed.html>.
>But will it have the staying power of "Borked" or "Fisking"?
>
>
>[2002 _Broadcasting & Cable_ 11 Feb. (Proquest) 4 (heading) Hopes Daschled?]
>
>[2004 _Daily News_ (NY) 4 Nov. (Nexis) 21 (heading) Dem spirits Daschled.]
>
>2004 AmericaLovingCanadian (weblog) 4 Nov., Even though Reid is from a
>"red state", he just won re-election, so he will not have to worry about
>being "Daschled", at least not for 6 years.
><http://jbloedow.blogspot.com/2004_11_01_jbloedow_archive.html>
>
>2004 Wampum (weblog) 6 Nov., Conrad, despite being an excellent Senator
>and the personification of fiscal responsibility, is reasonably likely to
>be Daschled.
><http://wampum.wabanaki.net/archives/001354.html>
>
>2004 _New York Times_ 7 Nov. (Week in Review) 3/1 Already, there is a new
>verb floating around the Capitol: "Daschled." It describes what can happen
>to those, like the Senate Democratic Leader Tom Daschle, who oppose
>Republican legislation and then lose re-election in heavily Republican
>states. ...  "If we've got troubles in Iraq and the economy's in the
>toilet then Democrats are not going to worry about being Daschled," he
>said.
>
>2004 Salon War Room (weblog) 8 Nov., But Josh Marshall points out that
>even a newcomer like Senator-elect John Thune, empowered by his Daschling
>of Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, is dangling the possibility that
>Specter will be punished for his sins.
>http://archive.salon.com/politics/war_room/2004/11/08/specter/
>
>2004 PaperSpray (weblog) 22 Nov., Daschled - A way to describe someone who
>has lost out because of lack of personality and charisma, even though they
>may be much more competent than the close-minded Republican asshole who
>beat him. "Former Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle was Daschled right
>out of his Senate Seat by Tom Thune, a total prick who likes to tout
>bibles."
><http://timpratt.blogspot.com/2004/11/hot-words-terms.html>
>
>2005 _Montgomery Advertiser_ (Ala.) 16 Jan. (online) "Getting Daschled" is
>now a real concern for many liberal members of Congress in both political
>parties, but especially for Democrats. Yet, because their base is so
>left-wing, liberal Democrats also fear getting "primaried," that is,
>losing to another liberal in their party's primary.
><http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/NEWSV5/storyV5edvoice116w.htm>
>
>
>--Ben Zimmer


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Feb  9 18:30:40 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:30:40 -0500
Subject: Nathan Bierma on Northern Cities Shift
In-Reply-To: <4e7c10f58326c260be0ec00090c3b716@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.133040.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I can't read the Bierma piece without subscribing.  Arnold, can you forward
the article?

At 12:48 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
>.... with an appearance by Our DInIs:
>
>http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi
>-0502090260feb09,1,7163783.story


From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU  Wed Feb  9 18:46:46 2005
From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:46:46 -0600
Subject: Nathan Bierma on Northern Cities Shift
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050209132941.032ac800@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.124646.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

you don't have to subscribe; it's just that not all of the url was html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi-0502090260feb09,1,7163783.story

On 2/9/05 12:30 PM, "Beverly Flanigan" <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:

> I can't read the Bierma piece without subscribing.  Arnold, can you forward
> the article?
>
> At 12:48 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
>> .... with an appearance by Our DInIs:
>>
>> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi
>> -0502090260feb09,1,7163783.story


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Wed Feb  9 18:46:12 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:46:12 -0600
Subject: Nathan Bierma on Northern Cities Shift
In-Reply-To: <200502091340.766420a59063c8@rly-nc06.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.124612.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Try this:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi-0502090260feb09,1,7163783.story?ctrack=3&cset=true


The URL in Arnold's message was cut in two.

Patti
flanigan at OHIOU.EDU wrote:

>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: Nathan Bierma on Northern Cities Shift
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I can't read the Bierma piece without subscribing.  Arnold, can you forward
>the article?
>
>At 12:48 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
>
>
>>.... with an appearance by Our DInIs:
>>
>>http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi
>>-0502090260feb09,1,7163783.story
>>
>>

--

Dr. Patti J. Kurtz

Assistant Professor, English

Director of the Writing Center

Minot State University

Minot, ND 58707



Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that.



Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims
that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program?



Foster: But we are RIGHT!



Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough.


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Feb  9 18:51:18 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:51:18 -0500
Subject: Nathan Bierma on Northern Cities Shift
In-Reply-To: <BE2FB6B6.7322%gordonmj@missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.135118.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Matthew Gordon wrote:
> you don't have to subscribe; it's just that not all of the url was html
>
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi-0502090260feb09,1,7163783.story
>
> On 2/9/05 12:30 PM, "Beverly Flanigan" <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
>
>
>>I can't read the Bierma piece without subscribing.  Arnold, can you forward
>>the article?
>>
>>At 12:48 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
>>
>>>.... with an appearance by Our DInIs:
>>>
>>>http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi
>>>-0502090260feb09,1,7163783.story

 From the full URL, I was taken to a registration page.

AF


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Feb  9 19:00:08 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:00:08 -0500
Subject: Nathan Bierma on Northern Cities Shift
In-Reply-To: <4e7c10f58326c260be0ec00090c3b716@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.140008.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FYI, Nathan sends out the full text of his weekly columns via an email
list:

http://www.nbierma.com/language/column/email/

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Feb  9 19:53:02 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:53:02 -0500
Subject: 419
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.145302.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Those charming missives from various highly-placed persons in Nigeria, claiming to have vast riches available in exchange for our assistance, are sometimes called 419 scams or advance fee frauds.  The origin of the "419" is said to be from the relevant section of the Nigerian Criminal Code.  It turns out that this is correct, although section 419 is the general criminal fraud statute and not specifically directed at 419 scams; the Code is at http://www.nigeria-law.org/Criminal%20Code%20Act-Part%20VI%20%20to%20the%20end.htm.  The term dates back at least to this 2/21/1992 Agence France-Presse article:


<<Former minister implicated in "419" fraud investigation

LAGOS, Feb 21 (AFP) - A former minister is among some 1,000 Nigerians suspected of involvement in a huge advance fee fraud wave that has taken milions of dollars out of the country, press reports said Friday.

The same report, citing "well informed sources in the presidency," appeared in all Nigerian papers implicating the former minister as well as a former senator and a well-known singer, though none of the three were named.

Victims of the "419" fraud have been persuaded, through the use of false or forged documents, to part with their money or property in anticipation of receiving substantial financial returns.

The nickname comes from section 419 of the Nigerian criminal code which covers such fraudulent acts, providing for up to seven years' jail for offenders.

A special presidential task force on trade malpractices has been set up to carry on the investigations along with the Federal Intelligence and Investigations Bureau (FIIB).

They are looking into about 1,052 complaints over the activities of "419" fraudsters referred to the bureau by British detectives, FIIB spokesman Archibong Nkana said earlier this week.

A total 811 of the complaints were against Nigerians based in Lagos, he told a news conference Monday.

Each of the complaints concerns a fictitious offer of large sums of money, averaging 30 million dollars per case, to be transferred out of Nigeria to foreign account holders, police have said.

The former minister cited in Friday's press reports reportedly took 700,000 naira against a false promise to deliver a cargo of crude oil, the presidential sources said in the reports.

They did not specify the date, but said the deal occurred when the naira was higher -- at 1.5 dollars -- making the minister's deposit worth slightly more than one million dollars.

Nigerian officials said the "419" fraud wave started in 1989 and is jeopardizing the country's economic recovery program.

The FIIB spokesman meanwhile said 11 suspects had been arrested in connection with defrauding several people, including an American, a Swede and an Egyptian.

The Nigerian foreign ministry this month also sent a list of 550 Nigerian companies to diplomatic missions here that have been implicated in "419" investigations.>>


        A Business America article on 1/13/1992 described these scams in some detail.  It did not call them 419 scams, but it did note that the Nigerian government had formed a task force, "commonly known as the "419 Committee" after the relevant anti-fraud statute of the Nigerian Criminal Code," that was charged with investigating fraudulent activities and prosecuting alleged perpetrators.


John Baker


From Vocabula at AOL.COM  Wed Feb  9 20:44:05 2005
From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:44:05 EST
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.154405.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

http://www.vocabula.com/2004/VRJan04FiskeFREE.asp



Robert Hartwell Fiske
Editor and Publisher
The Vocabula Review
http://www.vocabula.com/
 
The Vocabula Review
10 Grant Place
Lexington, MA 02420
_________________________
 
Two Vocabula Books: 
 
The Dictionary of Disagreeable English
http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksDisagree.asp 
 
"However curmudgeonly, Mr. Fiske betrays a bluff humanitarian spirit. ... His 
own flogging of Merriam-Webster's is one of the many pleasures of this 
lovely, sour, virtuous book." — Wall Street Journal  
 
Vocabula Bound: Outbursts, Insights, Explanations, and Oddities
http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksBound.asp
 
Twenty-five of the best essays and twenty-six of the best poems published in 
The Vocabula Review over the last few years


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb  9 21:33:35 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:33:35 -0600
Subject: neck-tie social (new sense?)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.153335.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 necktie sociable

"Horse Thieves!" _Colorado Miner_ [Georgetown, CO] 16 Aug 1879, p. 3.
"A necktie sociable, where the tie is made of round hempen cord, would
be well attended in this vicinity at the present time."


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb  9 22:30:39 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:30:39 -0600
Subject: A 19th Century F-Word Use
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.163039.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If you have access to the HeritageQuest.com genealogy site, you can't
search for the page, but you can browse to it.
Go to 1850 census records, then Georgia, then Dade county.  There are 63
images available, go to #61.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 8:22 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: A 19th Century F-Word Use
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: A 19th Century F-Word Use
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> Now if they'd found it used as an "adjective of extreme
> contumely" in 1850 - THAT would've been something!
>
> JL
>
> "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Baker, John"
> Subject: A 19th Century F-Word Use
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> Gene Weingarten's column, in the Washington Post for 2/6/2005
> and syndicated in other newspapers,
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55085-2005Feb1.
> html, reproduces an interesting use of "fucking" from the
> National Archives:
>
> <>
>
> Weingarten indicated in an online chat today that the
> archivists were astonished to find the term. Presumably they
> brought it to his attention for use in his humor column.
>
> John Baker
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  All your favorites on one personal page - Try My Yahoo!
>


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb  9 22:36:15 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:36:15 -0600
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.163615.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Likewise anyone with an Alabama library card, through the Alabama
Virtual Library.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dave Wilton
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 10:48 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Dictionaries Online?
>

>
> > Check your local library's website.  The Columbus (OH)
> public library
> > offers access to OED online if you have a library card.
>


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb  9 22:41:28 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:41:28 -0600
Subject: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.164128.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does the line in "Mustang Sally" "ride Sally ride" call back to "rise
Sally rise"??

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:26 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:59 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> >
> > Little Sally Saucer
> > Sitting in the water
> > Rise, Sally, rise
> > Wipe off your eyes Sally.
> >
>
> An alternative version from East Texas (I learned it there,
> but, given that variations of this variation appear in black
> pop music, e.g. the couplet, "Put your hands on your hips /
> And let your backbone slip"
> occurs in the 1959 song, "The Booty Green," I think that it
> is/was universal amongst the colored. Since I learned this
> from my mother, who's now 91, I'd guess that this version is
> probably at least a century old.)
>
> Little Sally Walker
> Sitting in a saucer
> Rise, Sally, Rise
> Wipe your weeping eyes
> Put your hands on your hips
> And let your backbone slip
> Shake it to the east
> Shake it to the west
> Shake it to the one
> You love the best
>
> -Wilson Gray
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 10 01:17:14 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:17:14 -0500
Subject: Ollie Ollie Oxen Free (1949); More rhymes; Blck, White,
 Red All Over
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.201714.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OLLIE OLLIE OXEN FREE

DARE has 1950 for "Olson free." I was looking at "Olley, Olley Oxen Free: America's Contribution to Hide & Seek" by Florence Healy French, NEW YORK FOLKLORE, col. 1, nos. 3-4, Winter 1975, pages 161-168.

Maybe Stan Laurel said this to Oliver Hardy?


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Other 40 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 1, 1949. p. B3 (1 page):
Rubio finally hauled down old Ollie-Ollie Oxenfree on the USF 30 yards later.

--------------------------------------------------------------
ICE CREAM SODA, DELAWARE PUNCH,...

A popular one.


(JSTOR)
Cultural Confusion on the Playground
John O. West
The Journal of American Folklore > Vol. 84, No. 333 (Jul., 1971), pp. 342-343
Pg. 342:
In this context, if one listens even with half an ear, he can hear the most marvelous fusions and confusions, linguistically speaking. None of these are as intriguing, in my experience, as what happens to standard jump-rope rhymes. One, the familiar "Ice cream soda, Delaware Punch,/Spell the initials of your honey bunch..."(1) comes out thus in Southest El Paso:

Ice cream soda, lemon lemon pop,
Tell me the licious of your sweet hot. (sic)
(The alphabet proceeds ot the initial of the Jumper's current flame, Henry.)

1. Roger Abrahams, _Jump Rope Rhymes_ (Austin, Texas, 1969), 73-76. This is one of the most widely reported rhymes today.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Other 90 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 18, 1958. p. L6 (1 page):
Remember _"Cinderella, dressed in yell,/ Went downstairs to meet her fella. / How many kisses did he give her? / 1...2...3..."_ and so until the jumper misses?

Lots of jump-rope songs, like Cinderlle, have to do with romance. There is _"Ice cream soda, / Delaware punch, / Tell me the name / Of my honeybunch. / A...B...C..." Of course, you miss on the initial of your beloved.

Another in the lovelorn vein is _"I love coffee, / I love tea, / I love the boys, / And the boys love me."_ Or _"Down in the valley where the green grass grows, / There sat Mary sweet as a rose. / She sang and she sang, and she sang so sweet, / Along came her boyfriend and kissed her on the cheek. / A...B...C..."_

Not all jump-rope songs anre sweetness and light, as witness _"Fudge, fudge, call the judge. / Mommy's got a brand new baby. / Wrap it up in tissue paper. / Drop it down the elevator. / First floor...second floor...third..."_ Presumably the dropped baby falls upward.

Adventure and domesticity intermingle. _"Where'd you get the cold, sir? / At the North Pole, sir. / What were you doing there, sir? / Catching polar bears, sir. / How many did you catch, sir? / 1...2...3..."_ In the next moment you hear _"Mabel, Mabel, set the table. / You got coffee--- / You got tea-- / You got salt-- / You got PEPPER!"_ Then come the hot pepper fast swings.

--------------------------------------------------------------
BLACK AND WHITE AND RED ALL OVER

I had posted from 1880, but this may be of interest if Fred's recording it...Still waiting for that darned Proquest digitization of the Boston Globe, Atlanta Constitution, and Chicago Tribune from this period (1880).


"The Newspaper Riddle Joke," WESTERN FOLKLORE, vol. 87 (1974), pages 253-257

Pg. 254:
As a conundrum, the Newspaper Riddle Joke should be found often in ninettenth-century newspapers and jestbooks, but there is little evidence of it. C. G. Loomis in his searches through those sources apparently noted no new example of it. Its omission is obviously not the result of its being an old chestnut well known to everyone, because many jokes of that nature _are_ included, but somehow it has been overlooked. The riddle does appear in Barbara Bee's _One Thousand Riddles_ (Hartford, Conn., 1882), where it is classified as an "enigma" rather than a conundrum, and in J. M. Robinson's _Book of Modern Conundrums_ (Baltimore, 1903). Earlier examples, and perhaps even the original authorship, of the conundrum may yet be discovered.


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Feb 10 03:20:01 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:20:01 -0500
Subject: necktie sociable (=dinner party, 1871)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.222001.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The ladies of the Cong. Church will hold a necktie Sociable and Supper at
the house of Geo. Fugard, on Tuesday evening, Feb. 21st, 1871, at 7 1/2
o'clock, p.m.  All interested are invided [sic] to attend.  _Prairie City
[Iowa] Index_, 2/17/1871, p 4


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Feb 10 03:32:07 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:32:07 -0500
Subject: neck-tie sociable (=dinner party, 1870)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.223207.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Neck-Tie Sociable.  This pleasant affair, which came off at the Brown
House on Monday evening last, was all that the most ardent friends of the
movement could have wished.  The large rooms were literally crowded to
overflowing with the "beauty and fashion" of our village, and the utmost
pleasantry and good feeling seemed to animate the entire company.  _Athens
[Ohio] Messenger_, 12/29/1870, p 3


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb 10 03:41:30 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:41:30 -0500
Subject: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA781@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.224130.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:41 PM -0600 2/9/05, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>Does the line in "Mustang Sally" "ride Sally ride" call back to "rise
>Sally rise"??

I thought it called forward to the astronaut.

L

>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: American Dialect Society
>>  [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray
>>  Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:26 AM
>>  To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>  Subject: Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
>>
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>  -----------------------
>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>  Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>>  Subject:      Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
>>  --------------------------------------------------------------
>>  -----------------
>>
>>  On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:59 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>>
>>  >
>>  > Little Sally Saucer
>>  > Sitting in the water
>>  > Rise, Sally, rise
>>  > Wipe off your eyes Sally.
>  > >
>>
>>  An alternative version from East Texas (I learned it there,
>>  but, given that variations of this variation appear in black
>>  pop music, e.g. the couplet, "Put your hands on your hips /
>>  And let your backbone slip"
>>  occurs in the 1959 song, "The Booty Green," I think that it
>>  is/was universal amongst the colored. Since I learned this
>>  from my mother, who's now 91, I'd guess that this version is
>>  probably at least a century old.)
>>
>>  Little Sally Walker
>>  Sitting in a saucer
>>  Rise, Sally, Rise
>>  Wipe your weeping eyes
>>  Put your hands on your hips
>>  And let your backbone slip
>>  Shake it to the east
>>  Shake it to the west
>>  Shake it to the one
>>  You love the best
>>
>>  -Wilson Gray
>>


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Feb 10 04:06:09 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:06:09 -0500
Subject: neck-tie party (=dinner party, 1870)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.230609.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Neck-Tie parties"  have dawned in the rural districts.  A neck-tie party
is one where each lady attending the party makes a neck-tie of the same
material as the dress she wears.  These are taken to where the party is to
be held and placed in a bag.  When the gentlemen arrive each one must go
to the bag and take out a neck-tie, and it is his duty to wait upon the
lady, during the evening, who wears the dress corresponding in material
with the neck-tie.  _Coshocton [Ohio] Democrat_, 12/20/1870, p 3

Mullins' suggestion that the hanging derived from the sociable (or the
like) needs further searching for both sense in early materials.  HDAS
shows _necktie_ in the sense of a hangman's noose (1866).


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Feb 10 04:17:32 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:17:32 -0500
Subject: neck-tie party (=hanging, 1871)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.231732.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Since a Kansas vigilance committee held a neck-tie party, eight horse
thieves are missing.
_Titusville [Penn.] Morning Herald_, 4/10/1871, p 4


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 10 04:28:34 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:28:34 -0500
Subject: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
In-Reply-To: <E1Cytqf-0004YU-00@mx07.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.232834.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think that I missed the possibility of what this could be WRT "The
Booty Green" because of the spelling, "booty." Some may recall that I
contend that the spelling should be "boody." So, yet another example of
what I consider to be wrong sort of went in one eye and out the other,
so to speak.

In any case, with a little research, I found three old R&B sounds with
the title, "B[insert your preferred spelling] Green." The version that
I remember from 1959 was by Robert "Bobby Marshan" Marchand," formerly
a vocalist with the band, Huey "Piano" Smith & The Clowns. Elder
statesmen on the list may recall "Sea Cruise" and "The Rockin'
Pneumonia and the Boogie-Woogie Flu," which are Huey Smith originals.
In any case, the Marshan version is basically the nursery rhyme set to
music with the refrain, "The booty green / the craziest dance / that
you ever seen" added.

There was another song from 1961 entitled "The Boo-Dee Green," by The
Olympics. (Remember "Good Lovin'" by the Young Rascals? It was
originally recorded by The Olympics.) This one has the refrain, "Let's
do the boo-dee green" and its words have no connection with the nursery
rhyme, but they are about dancing.

Finally, I found, from 1950, "Boodie Green" by Tiny Bradshaw, who also
originally recorded, "The Train Kept a-Rollin'". This version of "B.
Green" also has the refrain, "The boodie green / the craziest dance /
that you ever seen."

  O.K. We have at least three different spelling. The kind of word most
likely not to have a fixed spelling is one that is not normally
written. The usual reason for this is that the word is "dirty" or
"nasty." (Naturally, I have in mind the pre-rap/hip-hop era.) Even when
the word has a fixed spelling, that spelling tends to be distorted when
the word is written, as is the case with, e.g. P-Funk's "Tear The Roof
Off The Mothersucker" and "All Funked Up." Sometimes, the word isn't
used at all, again cf. P-Funk's "Up For The Down Stroke" or the Ohio
Players' "Fire": "I'm about to choke from the smoke. Got to tighten up
my stroke." And the imagery of the old dance, the "twist" goes all the
way back to the ancient jazz tune, "Windin' Boy." (Yes, I know that the
canonical spelliing of the first word is "Winin'.")

I have not the foggiest idea why "green" appears. I can't relate it to
anything except, possibly, the game "red light," which itself has
inspired some R&B tunes. But, in any case, I'm satisfied that all of
these songs are about sex. As the late Eddie Kendricks, formerly of the
Temptations, said of his first solo effort, disarmingly entitled
"Truckin'," "It's about fucking." And, of course, trucking is a form of
dancing. When I was a teenager back in St. Louis, we had a dance called
the "cheek-to-cheek bucket o' blood." Anyone not knowing the name of
this dance would simply have called it "dry-humping,"

On Feb 9, 2005, at 10:09 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson, does "The Booty Green" (1959) contain an ex. of "booty" = sex?
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:59 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>>
>> Little Sally Saucer
>> Sitting in the water
>> Rise, Sally, rise
>> Wipe off your eyes Sally.
>>
>
> An alternative version from East Texas (I learned it there, but, given
> that variations of this variation appear in black pop music, e.g. the
> couplet, "Put your hands on your hips / And let your backbone slip"
> occurs in the 1959 song, "The Booty Green," I think that it is/was
> universal amongst the colored. Since I learned this from my mother,
> who's now 91, I'd guess that this version is probably at least a
> century old.)
>
> Little Sally Walker
> Sitting in a saucer
> Rise, Sally, Rise
> Wipe your weeping eyes
> Put your hands on your hips
> And let your backbone slip
> Shake it to the east
> Shake it to the west
> Shake it to the one
> You love the best
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 10 04:32:36 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:32:36 -0500
Subject: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
In-Reply-To: <3rjp4a$7fd436@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.233236.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I certainly thought so at the time. It seemed too obvious not to be.
When you hear, "Ride, Sally, ride," you can't avoid remembering "Rise,
Sally, rise."

-Wilson

On Feb 9, 2005, at 5:41 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject:      Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Does the line in "Mustang Sally" "ride Sally ride" call back to "rise
> Sally rise"??
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society
>> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:26 AM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> -----------------
>>
>> On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:59 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Little Sally Saucer
>>> Sitting in the water
>>> Rise, Sally, rise
>>> Wipe off your eyes Sally.
>>>
>>
>> An alternative version from East Texas (I learned it there,
>> but, given that variations of this variation appear in black
>> pop music, e.g. the couplet, "Put your hands on your hips /
>> And let your backbone slip"
>> occurs in the 1959 song, "The Booty Green," I think that it
>> is/was universal amongst the colored. Since I learned this
>> from my mother, who's now 91, I'd guess that this version is
>> probably at least a century old.)
>>
>> Little Sally Walker
>> Sitting in a saucer
>> Rise, Sally, Rise
>> Wipe your weeping eyes
>> Put your hands on your hips
>> And let your backbone slip
>> Shake it to the east
>> Shake it to the west
>> Shake it to the one
>> You love the best
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>


From jdewan at COVAD.NET  Thu Feb 10 05:40:18 2005
From: jdewan at COVAD.NET (Jim DeWan)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:40:18 -0600
Subject: spatchcock
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.234018.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gentlepeople,

Anyone know much about the word "spatchcock" beyond what it says in the
OED (Irish origin, late 18th century, from "dispatch cock")?

Currently, it's a culinary term and refers to a bird (chicken,
generally) that has had its backbone removed, then its keel (breast)
bone, which allows it to be opened flat, skin side up, after which it's
cooked. Some have suggested a relation between this and "spitchcock",
which the OED lists as a much older (by nearly two centuries) term
referring to cutting up an eel.

Others have suggested a link between the German "spaten" (spade), and
it being a reference to the spade-like shape of a birdy breastbone.

Thanks.

Jim DeWan
food writer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 10 05:54:32 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:54:32 -0500
Subject: Rise, Sally, Rise (1883); Old Mother Hawkins (1960)
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.005432.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RISE, SALLY, RISE

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
GAMES OF AMERICAN CHILDREN.; Some Curiosities of the Nursery and the Playground.
The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: May 20, 1883. p. 6 (1 page):
Onery, twoery, hickory Ann,
Fillison,follason, Nicholas John,
Queevy, quavy, Virgin Mary,
Singalum, sangalum, buck.
(...)
Eny, meny, mony, my,
Tusca, leina, bona, stry,
Kay bell, broken wed,
We, wo, weck.
(...)
Mr. William Wells Newell has done a good service to the cause of juvenile literature by writing a handsome book of nearly 250 pages about the "Games and Songs of American Children," which has just been published in New York. Underthe head of "Love Games" he gives ten specimens. Among the nine which he classifies as "Histories" is one called "Little Sallie Waters," in whose honor a dance has been named, which is now in vogue. The rhyme runs thus:

Little Sallie Waters,
Sitting in the sun.
Crying and weeping
For a young man.
Rise, Sally rise,
Dry your weeping eyes,
Fly to the east,
Fly to the west,
Fly to the one you love best.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
CAROLS AND CHILD-LORE AT THE CAPITAL.
W H Babcock. Lippincott's Monthly Magazine (1886-1915). Philadelphia: Sep 1886. Vol. 38; p. 320 (23 pages)
(Page numbers difficult--ed.)
It is in use in Scotland for determining the positions to be occupied by boys playing games:

One to the east, one to the west,
One goes to the cuckoo's nest.
(...) (Same page--ed.)

Here is another ring-game which tallies so well with what we hear of the behavior of mermaidens that I am half inclined to believe it is not for nothing that the heroine is persistently named "Waters" and "sits in the sand." On the other hand, it must be admitted that the name is by no means new to ballad-literature dealing with dry-land topics,--witness "Childe Waters."

A girl is seated in the middle of the ring, pretending to weep. All the others sing,--

Little Sally waters sitting in the sand,
Weeping, crying, for a young man.
Rise, Sally, rise, wipe your eyes,
Point to the east, point to the west,
Point to the one that you love best.

Here we have the elfin-knight formula again. North and south are always omitted from the preliminary invocation, possibly because the former was once the road to Hel, or for some other reason connected with the old mythology.

Sally does as directed, timing each act to the appropriate word. The chosen one enters the magic circle, and kisses her, then becomes Sally Waters in her stead. These transformations are the less difficult since the masculine characters are generally girls in their own proper apparel.
(...)
Hot bread nad butter,
Please come to supper,
(...)
Mommy Daddy jumped the gutter,
Loaf of bread and pound of butter.
(...)
Star, star that shines so bright,
The first star I've seen to-night.
I hope I wish, I hope I may,
I hope my wish may come true
To-morrow night.
(...)
I climbed up the apple-tree,
And all the apples fell on me.
Make a pudding, bake a pie;
Did you ever tell a lie?
Yes, you did; you know you did,--
You stole your mother's teapot-lid.
(...)
Red-headed sinner,
Come down to your dinner.

Red-headed fox
Stole my mother's pigeon-box.

Reddy in the woods
Can't catch a butterfly.

April's gone, summer's come,
You're a fool and I'm none.

"Twenty-nine and one?"
   "Thirty!"
"Your face is dirty."


(MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL)
The Living age ... / Volume 182, Issue 2353: pp. 257-320
p. 287 1 match of 'rise, sally, rise'
  in: Title: The Living age ... / Volume 182, Issue 2353
Publisher: The Living age co. inc. etc. Publication Date: August 3, 1889

Ruth, who had before been staying with the Alwynns at the time of their schoolfeast, hardened her heart and began that immoral but popular game of "Sally Water."

Sally, Sally Water, come sprinle your pan;
Rise up a husband, a handsome youg man.
Rise, Sally, rise, and don't look sad,
You shall have a husband, good or bad.


(MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL)
Penhallow, by Edith Robinson: pp. 739-759
p. 758 1 match of 'rise, sally, rise'
  in: Title: The Century; a popular quarterly. / Volume 41, Issue 5
Publisher: The Century Company Publication Date: Mar 1891

"Rise, Sally, rise,
Wipe off your eyes!"

--------------------------------------------------------------
OLD MOTHER HAWKINS (1960)

I couldn't find "the hawk" (the wind) in DOWN BEAT. Oh sure, plenty of stuff about Coleman Hawkins and Erskine Hawkins. But where is it?

One would be tempted to say it's in a Zora Neale Hurston story (see the Black Drama database for "hawk"), but her stories have been well examined by scholars.

The following (Old Mother Hawkins=snowing) was interesting, but I can't find much about it.


MODERN PROVERBS AND PROVERBIAL SAYINGS
by Bartlett Jere Whiting
Harvard Univeristy Press
Cambridge, Mass.
1989

Pg. 427:
Old Mother Hawkins is plucking geese

1960 ILee _Edge_ (NY) 235: It's old Mother Hawkins a-plucking geese (_snowing_). Cf. _Oxford_ 887: Widecombe folks.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 10 06:58:28 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 01:58:28 -0500
Subject: Rise, Sally, Rise (1883)
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.015828.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A little more. You can listen to the songs on American Memory:


http://memory.loc.gov
Little Sally Walker
PERFORMER(S)
Fisher, Wilford Jerome
Farr, Ruthie May

Sally Walker
PERFORMER(S)
Stripling, Sydney


(GOOGLE)
MUSTANG SALLY: The man behind the song provides a ride down memory ...
... The chorus "Ride Sally ride" came courtesy of "rise Sally rise" from the Little
Sally Walker children's rhyme Rice liked while growing up in Clarksdale, Miss. ...
www.freep.com/news/metro/ dreamcruise/2002/sally16_20020816.htm - 16k - Cached - Similar pages


http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiSALWALKR.html
Gomme's lengthy analysis (pp. 167-179) takes the game
back to primitive (pre-Celtic) marriage ceremonies. The
marriage formula may belong rightly to this game, although
appearing in others.  The tune, she notes, is always the same
[or extremely similar at least] for the marriage formula,
"irrespective of that to which the previous verses are sung,
and this rule obtains in all those games in which this
formula appears--a further proof of the antiquity of the
formula as an outcome of the early marriage ceremony."
See FSJ pt. 28, 111-6.  Opies Singing Game (1985), 167 (no. 34),
"Sally Water", with foreign refs. (Canada, N.Z., etc.).  A
relative of some sort is "Little Alexander", q.v.



http://www.musicals101.com/lyharrigan.htm
2. "The Babies on Our Block"
Music by David Braham
Lyrics by Edward Harrigan

This song was introduced in The Mulligan Guard Ball (1879). It remained a sentimental favorite with fans for years to come. This is the lyric as it appears in the original sheet music, published by Wm. A. Pond & Co. (NY) in 1879. The entire song is in 4/4 time.

Verse 1
If you want for information
Or in need of merriment.
Come over with me socially
To Murphy's tenement.
He owns a row of houses
In the first ward near the dock,
Where Ireland's represented
By the babies on our block.
There's the Phalens and the Whalens
>From the sweet Dunochadee,
They are sitting on the railings
With their children on their knee.
All gossiping and talking
With their neighbors in a flock
Singing "Little Sally Waters"
With the babies on our block.
'Oh little Sally Waters
Sitting in the sun
A-crying and weeping for a young man;
Oh rise, Sally, rise,
Wipe your eye out with your frock":
That's sung by the babies
A-living on our block.


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Feb 10 07:08:51 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:08:51 -0500
Subject: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
In-Reply-To: <8dd830869065a729cc552749ee49d880@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.020851.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray:

>.... I contend that the spelling should be "boody."

I have the same impression. From my posting here on 27 Sep. 2000:

<<in my boyhood 'boody'/'booty' was an exact equivalent of 'ass': .... I
always assumed this was a corruption of 'body'.>>

Please note that despite the similarity of names we are two distinct and
independent informants.

-- Doug Wilson


From slangman at PACBELL.NET  Thu Feb 10 14:06:46 2005
From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:06:46 -0800
Subject: ? for Tom Dalzell
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.060646.0800.>

I do not have easy access to my Slang of Sin files for the next few
days, but I suspect that whatever the "correct" form of the phrase was,
it was from a one-of list of neologisms that were never in common use.

Tom Dalzell

neil wrote:

>In 'The Slang of Sin' did you really mean 'stroke' the furnace (as printed)
>for female masturbation - or is it a misprint for 'stoke'?
>
>-Neil Crawford
>
>
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 10 15:05:34 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:05:34 -0500
Subject: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
In-Reply-To: <E1Cz8RH-0005T7-00@mx06.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.100534.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 10, 2005, at 2:08 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
> Subject:      Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson Gray:
>
>> .... I contend that the spelling should be "boody."
>
> I have the same impression. From my posting here on 27 Sep. 2000:
>
> <<in my boyhood 'boody'/'booty' was an exact equivalent of 'ass': ....
> I
> always assumed this was a corruption of 'body'.>>
>
> Please note that despite the similarity of names we are two distinct
> and
> independent informants.
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>

We also agree as to the origin of the word. There was a movie back in
the '40's - I didn't see it myself; so I have no idea whether this
movie was anything like either of the two more recent movies of that
title - called "The Body Snatchers." This led to the invention of a
game called "boody snatcher," which was very similar to the literal
meaning of the modern game of grab-ass.

-Wilson Gray


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Feb 10 16:01:16 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:01:16 -0500
Subject: A 19th Century F-Word Use
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA77F@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.110116.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 04:30:39PM -0600, Mullins, Bill wrote:
> If you have access to the HeritageQuest.com genealogy site, you can't
> search for the page, but you can browse to it.
> Go to 1850 census records, then Georgia, then Dade county.  There are 63
> images available, go to #61.

It's actually image #60.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 10 17:40:33 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:40:33 -0500
Subject: Honeydripper (1946); Jonathan Green's "The Hawk" (1930s)
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.124033.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

HONEYDRIPPER--
HDAS? A cartoon in DOWN BEAT, 14 January 1946, pg. 10, col. 3, has someone shouting "Honeydripper!" to an orchestra.

JONATHAN GREEN'S "THE HAWK"--The Cassell Dictionary of Slang has "1930s+" for "hawk" and "Hawkins." This would rule out Coleman Hawkins and Erskine Hawkins, as I've said. Cites?


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 10 19:34:08 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:34:08 -0500
Subject: Honeydripper (1946); Jonathan Green's "The Hawk" (1930s)
In-Reply-To: <E1CzIJU-0000Ge-00@mx10.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.143408.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"The Honeydripper" was the name of a tune written by Joe Liggins and
recorded by him with his band on the long-since defunct Exclusive
Records, the first black-owned label, in 1945. After the record
reputedly (back in the day, Downbeat pretty much didn't track black
music unless it crossed over) sold 2 million copies, Liggins made the
song his theme song and changed the name of the band to "Joe Liggins
and The Honeydrippers.

Liggins himself was a pianist, but the tune featured the blowing of two
saxophonists, Willie Jackson on the soprano and the baritone gator
tails and James Jackson, Jr. (no relation) on the tenor gator tail.
(These Jacksons should not be confused with Willis "Gator Tail"
Jackson, who also played the tenor gator tail and was married to Ruth
Brown.) These two were _The_ Honeydrippers.

Very likely, the Downbeat cartoon refers to this tune.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 10, 2005, at 12:40 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Honeydripper (1946); Jonathan Green's "The Hawk" (1930s)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> HONEYDRIPPER--
> HDAS? A cartoon in DOWN BEAT, 14 January 1946, pg. 10, col. 3, has
> someone shouting "Honeydripper!" to an orchestra.



>
> JONATHAN GREEN'S "THE HAWK"--The Cassell Dictionary of Slang has
> "1930s+" for "hawk" and "Hawkins." This would rule out Coleman Hawkins
> and Erskine Hawkins, as I've said. Cites?
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Feb 10 21:33:31 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:33:31 -0500
Subject: Honeydripper (1946); Jonathan Green's "The Hawk" (1930s)
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.163331.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The nickname of Roosevelt Sykes (b. 1906) was the Honeydripper.  The
entries in the New Grove Dict. of Amer. Music and the The encyclopedia
of popular music, compiled & edited by Colin Larkin, 3rd ed, 1998 don't
indicate when he took the name, but there's a pretty good chance that
it would be before the mid-40s.

My impression is that the nickname "The Hawk" was exclusive to Coleman
Hawkins.  I don't associate any nickname with Erskine -- his press
agent called him something like the 20th C. Gabriel.  Coleman Hawkins
was a pretty big star by the end of the 1920s and jazz hounds would
have known who "The Hawk" was by then.  His connection with the winter
wind in Chicago isn't clear to me.  I have a very vague recollection of
a 1940s? recording of a poem by Langston Hughes? to the accompaniment
of some noted jazz musicians which alludes to "the hawk" (as in wind).

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Date: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:40 pm
Subject: Honeydripper (1946); Jonathan Green's "The Hawk" (1930s)

> HONEYDRIPPER--
> HDAS? A cartoon in DOWN BEAT, 14 January 1946, pg. 10, col. 3, has
> someone shouting "Honeydripper!" to an orchestra.
>
> JONATHAN GREEN'S "THE HAWK"--The Cassell Dictionary of Slang has
> "1930s+" for "hawk" and "Hawkins." This would rule out Coleman
> Hawkins and Erskine Hawkins, as I've said. Cites?
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Feb 10 22:10:36 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:10:36 -0500
Subject: cross-word puzzles
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.171036.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In his message of 29 Jan 2005 Barry gave references from a Proquest
Hist Newspapers search for "crossword" and "puzzle", the earliest
result coming from the Washington Post of April 27, 1884.

That reference is to a column called "Our Puzzle Department", giving
answers to puzzles from previous Sundays, and new puzzles.  Somehow the
Proquest search missed the column from 2 weeks before giving the
original.

[puzzle #] 637 -- Cross Word Enigma.
  In goat, not in sheep;
  In much, not in heap;
  In great, not in less;
  In Dish, not in bowl;
  In ask, not in beg;
  In after, not in now;
  In uncle, not in neice;
  In ill, not in well.
The whole is a cape projecting into the Indian ocean.  FAN and HAT.
[this is the signature of the puzzler.]

There are also mathematical puzzles, riddles, rebuses.

# 633 -- Reversals:
  1.  Reverse an aquatic palnt and give an animal.
  2.  Reverse a working implement and give plunder.
  3.  Reverse a number and give a snare.    [signed] W. S.

# 638 -- Enigma.
  the whole 12 letters will name a novel by William Black;
  The 10, 9, 5, 1 is a kind of earth.
  The 6, 2,3 is to fill.
  The 4, 7, 8, 11, 12 is an animal.  [signed] Delmonte.

All from Washington Post, April 13, 1884, p. 3, col. 7.

No cheating.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Feb 10 22:58:37 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:58:37 -0500
Subject: cross-word puzzles
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.175837.0500.>

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:10:36 -0500, George Thompson
<george.thompson at NYU.EDU> wrote:

>In his message of 29 Jan 2005 Barry gave references from a Proquest
>Hist Newspapers search for "crossword" and "puzzle", the earliest
>result coming from the Washington Post of April 27, 1884.
>
>That reference is to a column called "Our Puzzle Department", giving
>answers to puzzles from previous Sundays, and new puzzles.  Somehow the
>Proquest search missed the column from 2 weeks before giving the
>original.

You're missing a line...

>[puzzle #] 637 -- Cross Word Enigma.
>  In goat, not in sheep;
>  In much, not in heap;
>  In great, not in less;

   In hear, not in listen;

>  In Dish, not in bowl;
>  In ask, not in beg;
>  In after, not in now;
>  In uncle, not in neice;
>  In ill, not in well.
>The whole is a cape projecting into the Indian ocean.  FAN and HAT.
>[this is the signature of the puzzler.]

(Still extremely difficult, unless you're familiar with the geography of
eastern Africa.)

The Post was publishing these "crossword enigmas" in its Puzzle Department
at least a year before that:

-----
Washington Post, Apr 22, 1883, p. 2

147 -- Crossword enigma.
My first is in fashion, not in mode; my second is in lane and not in road;
my third in peach and not in fruit; my fourth in bottle and not in cruet;
my fifth in seat and not in trim; my sixth in terror and not in grin; my
seventh in honey and not in sweet; my eighth in leave, also in retreat. My
whole is a magic potion.
-----

(This one might be *a little* easier.)


--Ben Zimmer


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 10 23:07:39 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:07:39 -0500
Subject: Honeydripper (1946); Jonathan Green's "The Hawk" (1930s)
In-Reply-To: <E1CzLwU-0007Ll-00@mx06.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.180739.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 10, 2005, at 4:33 PM, George Thompson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Honeydripper (1946); Jonathan Green's "The Hawk"
> (1930s)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The nickname of Roosevelt Sykes (b. 1906) was the Honeydripper.  The
> entries in the New Grove Dict. of Amer. Music and the The encyclopedia
> of popular music, compiled & edited by Colin Larkin, 3rd ed, 1998 don't
> indicate when he took the name, but there's a pretty good chance that
> it would be before the mid-40s.

FWIW, Roosevelt Sykes fronted a group called "The Honeydrippers" in
1943, so it can be inferred that Sykes was using the name before that
date. Nevertheless, his 1945 recording of "The Honeydripper," was only
a cover of the original recording with that title by Joe Liggins. That
is, it was Joe Liggins who made the term, "Honeydripper," famous,
regardless of Sykes's earlier use of the term. The situation mirrors a
more recent incident. Hank Ballard wrote the song, "The Twist," and
originally recorded it with his group, The Midnighters. But it was
Chubby Checker's cover that made the twist an international phenomenon.

-Wilson Gray

>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Date: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:40 pm
> Subject: Honeydripper (1946); Jonathan Green's "The Hawk" (1930s)
>
>> HONEYDRIPPER--
>> HDAS? A cartoon in DOWN BEAT, 14 January 1946, pg. 10, col. 3, has
>> someone shouting "Honeydripper!" to an orchestra.
>>
>> JONATHAN GREEN'S "THE HAWK"--The Cassell Dictionary of Slang has
>> "1930s+" for "hawk" and "Hawkins." This would rule out Coleman
>> Hawkins and Erskine Hawkins, as I've said. Cites?
>>
>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Feb 10 23:23:56 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:23:56 -0500
Subject: cross-word puzzles
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.182356.0500.>

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:58:37 -0500, I wrote:

>The Post was publishing these "crossword enigmas" in its Puzzle Department
>at least a year before that:
>
>-----
>Washington Post, Apr 22, 1883, p. 2
>
>147 -- Crossword enigma.
>My first is in fashion, not in mode; my second is in lane and not in road;
>my third in peach and not in fruit; my fourth in bottle and not in cruet;
>my fifth in seat and not in trim; my sixth in terror and not in grin; my
>seventh in honey and not in sweet; my eighth in leave, also in retreat. My
>whole is a magic potion.
>-----

Whoops, I included my own typo in this one.  It should read:

"...my fifth in neat and not in trim..."


--Ben Zimmer


From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM  Fri Feb 11 00:16:44 2005
From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:16:44 -0500
Subject: Spamming the ADS - L Mailing List
In-Reply-To: <200502090851624.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.191644.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Excuse me, but I don't follow this.

Does American Dialect Society sell their members email addresses?

Do they sell addresses to a company called LIFELINKNET.COM?

from:

http://www.americandialect.org/adsl.html

To Conceal Your Subscription Status From Others
Please note that it is possible for other people to determine that you are
signed up to the list through the use of the "REVIEW" command, which
returns the e-mail address and name of all the subscribers. If you do not
want your name to be visible, just send a "SET ADS-L CONCEAL" command to
<mailto:listserv at listserv.uga.edu>listserv at listserv.uga.edu.

More Commands
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or
<mailto:jester at panix.com?subject=Question%20from%20an%20ADS-L%20Subscriber>Jesse
Sheidlower


please clarify & thanks,

Karen


At 11:40 AM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       David Blanco <sales at LIFELINKNET.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Mail list
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>We purchase list for a "one time mailing" and are allowed to maintain the
>name only if the customer responds to our solicitation.  You are not on any
>current list of ours.
>
>Sincerely,
>David Blanco
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Billy Thomas" <billyeo2003 at SBCGLOBAL.NET>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 2:58 PM
>Subject: Mail list
>
>
>Someone subscribed me to your list and about 300 others.Please take me off
>of your mail list.


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Feb 11 00:43:32 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:43:32 -0500
Subject: Spamming the ADS - L Mailing List
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.194332.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Someone, presumably as a malicious joke, signed Billy Thomas on to about 300 email lists.  Billy then started writing the email lists to ask for removal.

        David Blanco saw Billy's post to ADS-L, asking for removal, and thought it was a personal email to him.  He replied that his company purchases lists for one-time-use only and that Billy was not on any of their current lists.  In other words, David was confused.

        I don't speak for the Society, obviously, but there is no reason to believe that it sells members' email addresses, especially since anyone who wants to can use the Review command to get the email addresses.  The Review command predates the widespread use of spam.  Perhaps it's time for our listowners to change the list's properties and keep private the addresses of non-posting members.  I can't think of any good reason for that information to be freely available anyway.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Educational CyberPlayGround
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 7:17 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Spamming the ADS - L Mailing List


Excuse me, but I don't follow this.

Does American Dialect Society sell their members email addresses?

Do they sell addresses to a company called LIFELINKNET.COM?

from:

http://www.americandialect.org/adsl.html

To Conceal Your Subscription Status From Others
Please note that it is possible for other people to determine that you are
signed up to the list through the use of the "REVIEW" command, which
returns the e-mail address and name of all the subscribers. If you do not
want your name to be visible, just send a "SET ADS-L CONCEAL" command to
<mailto:listserv at listserv.uga.edu>listserv at listserv.uga.edu.

More Commands
More information on LISTSERV commands can be found in the LISTSERV
reference card, which you can retrieve by sending an "INFO REFCARD" command
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If you have questions about ADS-L, send email to
<mailto:t.irons at morehead-st.edu?subject=Question%20from%20an%20ADS-L%20Subscriber>Terry
Irons

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<mailto:jester at panix.com?subject=Question%20from%20an%20ADS-L%20Subscriber>Jesse
Sheidlower


please clarify & thanks,

Karen


At 11:40 AM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       David Blanco <sales at LIFELINKNET.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Mail list
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>We purchase list for a "one time mailing" and are allowed to maintain the
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>Sincerely,
>David Blanco
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Billy Thomas" <billyeo2003 at SBCGLOBAL.NET>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 2:58 PM
>Subject: Mail list
>
>
>Someone subscribed me to your list and about 300 others.Please take me off
>of your mail list.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 11 01:45:56 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:45:56 -0500
Subject: "Winter's name is Hawkins" in Langston Hughes
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.204556.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jonathon Green, not Jonathan. Sorry about that. It was lunch hour. Thousands of parking tickets will do that to you.

This is from Literature Online. It's in the poem, line 422. Date?...I'll probably check out the Chicago (Daily) Defender at NYPL's Harlem library on Saturday.


Hughes, Langston, 1902-1967. [Author Page]
ASK YOUR MAMA 12 MOODS FOR JAZZ  95Kb , [from The Collected Poems of Langston Hughes: Arnold Rampersad, Editor: David Roessel, Associate Editor (1995), Alfred A. Knopf, Inc.] [Durable URL for this text]
Found 1 hit(s).
HORN OF PLENTY 10Kb 10Kb
...¢ WHERE WINTER'S NAME IS HAWKINS           ¢ ¢ ¢ ¢ AND NIAGARA...


HORN OF PLENTY
[End note: 1Kb]

[Page 498 ]


396      SINGERS                                                                                          TACIT
397      SINGERS LIKE O-
398      SINGERS LIKE ODETTA---AND THAT STATUE [End note: 1Kb]
399      ON BEDLOE'S ISLAND MANAGED BY SOL HUROK [End note: 1Kb]
400      DANCERS BOJANGLES LATE LAMENTED       $ $ $ $
401      KATHERINE DUNHAM AL AND LEON           $ $ $ $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
402      ARTHUR CARMEN ALVIN MARY          $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
403      JAZZERS DUKE AND DIZZY ERIC DOLPHY        $ $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
404      MILES AND ELLA AND MISS NINA          $ $ $ $ $ $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
405      STRAYHORN HIS BACKSTAGE WITH LUTHER     $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
406      DO YOU READ MUSIC? AND LOUIS SAYING          $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
407      NOT ENOUGH TO HURT MY PLAYING            $ $ $ $ $
408      GOSPEL SINGERS WHO PANT TO PACK          $ $ $ $
409      GOLDEN CROSSES TO A CADILLAC          $ $ $ $ $ $
410      BONDS AND STILL AND MARGARET STILL          $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
411      GLOBAL TROTTERS BASEBALL BATTERS         $ $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
412      JACKIE WILLIE CAMPANELLA           $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
413      FOOTBALL PLAYERS LEATHER PUNCHERS      $ $ $
414      UNFORGOTTEN JOES AND SUGAR RAYS        $ $ $ $ [End note: 1Kb]

[Page 499 ]

415      WHO BREAK AWAY LIKE COMETS            $ $ $ $ $ $
416      FROM LESSER STARS IN ORBIT               $ $ $ $ $ $ $
417      TO MOVE OUT TO ST. ALBANS             $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
418      WHERE THE GRASS IS GREENER              $ $ $ $ $ $ $
419      SCHOOLS ARE BETTER FOR THEIR CHILDREN      $
420      AND OTHER KIDS LESS MEANER THAN         ¢ ¢ ¢ ¢
421      IN THE QUARTER OF THE NEGROES            ¢ ¢ ¢ ¢ ¢
422      WHERE WINTER'S NAME IS HAWKINS           ¢ ¢ ¢ ¢
423      AND NIAGARA FALLS IS FROZEN            ¢ ¢ ¢ ¢ ¢ ¢ ¢
424      IF SHOW FARE'S MORE THAN 30           ¢ ¢ ¢ ¢ ¢ ¢ ¢ ¢                      "Hesitation
425                                                                                                                        Blues" 8 bars.

426      I MOVED OUT TO LONG ISLAND                                                     TACIT
427      EVEN FARTHER THAN ST. ALBANS
428      (WHICH LATELY IS STONE NOWHERE)
429      I MOVED OUT EVEN FARTHER FURTHER FARTHER
430      ON THE SOUND WAY OFF THE TURNPIKE---
431      AND I'M THE ONLY COLORED.

432      GOT THERE! YES, I MADE IT!
433      NAME IN THE PAPERS EVERY DAY!
434      FAMOUS---THE HARD WAY---
435      FROM NOBODY AND NOTHING TO WHERE I AM.
436      THEY KNOW ME, TOO, DOWNTOWN,
437      ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, EUROPE---
438      ME WHO USED TO BE NOBODY,
439      NOTHING BUT ANOTHER SHADOW
440      IN THE QUARTER OF THE NEGROES,
441      NOW A NAME! MY NAME---A NAME!

442      YET THEY ASKED ME OUT ON MY PATIO
443      WHERE DID I GET MY MONEY!

[Page 500 ]

444      I SAID, FROM YOUR MAMA!                                                  Figurine.
445      THEY WONDERED WAS I SENSITIVE
446      AND HAD A CHIP ON MY SHOULDER?
447      DID I KNOW CHARLIE MINGUS? [End note: 1Kb]
448      AND WHY DID RICHARD WRIGHT [End note: 1Kb]
449      LIVE ALL THAT WHILE IN PARIS
450      INSTEAD OF COMING HOME TO DECENT DIE
451      IN HARLEM OR THE SOUTH SIDE OF CHICAGO
452      OR THE WOMB OF MISSISSIPPI?
453      AND ONE SHOULD LOVE ONE'S COUNTRY
454      FOR ONE'S COUNTRY IS YOUR MAMA.

455      LIVING IN ST. ALBANS
456      SHADOW OF THE NEGROES
457      WESTPORT AND NEW CANAAN [End note: 1Kb]
458      IN THE SHADOW OF THE NEGROES---
459      HIGHLY INTEGRATED
460      MEANS TOO MANY NEGROES
461      EVEN FOR THE NEGROES---
462      ESPECIALLY FOR THE FIRST ONES
463      WHO MOVE IN UNOBTRUSIVE                                            Gently
464      BOOK-OF-THE-MONTH IN CASES                                        yearning
465      SEEKING SUBURB WITH NO JUKEBOX                              lieder
466      POOL HALL OR BAR ON CORNER                                       on
467      SEEKING LAWNS AND SHADE TREES                                piano
468      SEEKING PEACE AND QUIET                                                delicately
469      AUTUMN LEAVES IN AUTUMN                                            sedate,
470      HOLLAND BULBS IN SPRING                                                quietly
471      DECENT GARBAGE SERVICE                                                fading
472      BIRDS THAT REALLY SING                                                    on the
473      $40,000 HOUSES---                                                                    word

[Page 501 ]

474      PAYMENTS NOT BELATED---                                                belated....
475      THE ONLY NEGROES IN THE BLOCK                                  TACIT
476      INTEGRATED.

477      HORN OF PLENTY                                                                     Again
478      IN ESCROW TO JOE GLASSER. [End note: 1Kb]                     the old
479      THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT                                              "Hesitation
480      IN BILLINGTON'S CHURCH OF RUBBER. [End note: 1Kb]   Blues"
481      LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF                                      against the
482      IN GEORGE SOKOLSKY'S COLUMN. [End note: 1Kb]          trills
483      BIRDS THAT REALLY SING.                                                     of birds,
484      EVERY DAY'S TOMORROW                                                     but the
485      AND ELECTION TIME                                                                melody
486      IS ALWAYS FOUR YEARS                                                         ends in
487      FROM THE OTHER                                                                      a thin
488      AND MY LAWN MOWER                                                           high
489      NEW AND SHINY                                                                        flute call.
490      FROM THE BIG GLASS SHOPPING CENTER
491      CUTS MY HAIR ON CREDIT.

492      THEY RUNG MY BELL TO ASK ME                                          TACIT
493      COULD I RECOMMEND A MAID.
494      I SAID, YES, YOUR MAMA.                                                        Figurine.


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb 11 03:07:33 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:07:33 -0500
Subject: "Winter's name is Hawkins" in Langston Hughes
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.220733.0500.>

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:45:56 -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>This is from Literature Online. It's in the poem, line 422. Date?...I'll
>probably check out the Chicago (Daily) Defender at NYPL's Harlem library
>on Saturday.
>
>Hughes, Langston, 1902-1967. [Author Page]
>ASK YOUR MAMA 12 MOODS FOR JAZZ  95Kb , [from The Collected Poems of
>Langston Hughes: Arnold Rampersad, Editor: David Roessel, Associate
>Editor (1995), Alfred A. Knopf, Inc.] [Durable URL for this text]
>Found 1 hit(s).
>HORN OF PLENTY 10Kb 10Kb
>...¢ WHERE WINTER'S NAME IS HAWKINS           ¢ ¢ ¢ ¢ AND NIAGARA...

_Ask Your Mama_ was published in 1961, and I don't see anything to suggest
that "Horn of Plenty" was published separately at an earlier date.

Perhaps George Thompson was thinking of an earlier Hughes work?  HDAS
cites _Negro Folklore_ (1958) by Hughes and Arna Bontemps ("Hawkins: The
wind, wintertime, cold weather, ice, snow. In February, Hawkins talks.")

The earliest "Hawkins" cite in HDAS is from 1934, in the _Baltimore Sun_:
"Hawkins is outside (is coming)."  Perhaps this is what the Cassell
Dictionary of Slang is referring to.  Is this the only cite from the '30s
for "Hawkins" or "Hawk" found so far?


--Ben Zimmer


From iammaggytoo at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 11 03:35:22 2005
From: iammaggytoo at YAHOO.COM (margaret ellen smith)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:35:22 -0800
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.193522.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

UNSUBSCRIBE-MARGARET SMITH


"May your heart always be joyful, and may your song always be sung.".... Bob Dylan

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Feb 11 04:25:26 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:25:26 -0500
Subject: Spamming the ADS - L Mailing List
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B5B@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.232526.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 07:43:32PM -0500, Baker, John wrote:
>
>         David Blanco saw Billy's post to ADS-L, asking for
> removal, and thought it was a personal email to him.  He
> replied that his company purchases lists for one-time-use
> only and that Billy was not on any of their current lists.
> In other words, David was confused.

The fact that there is someone on ADS-L in the business of
mailing lists is odd, but there doesn't seem to have been
anything other than an accident involved, and no one is
spamming ADS-L.

>         I don't speak for the Society, obviously, but there
> is no reason to believe that it sells members' email
> addresses, especially since anyone who wants to can use the
> Review command to get the email addresses.  The Review
> command predates the widespread use of spam.  Perhaps it's
> time for our listowners to change the list's properties and
> keep private the addresses of non-posting members.  I can't
> think of any good reason for that information to be freely
> available anyway.

Anyone who wants to keep their address private can do so;
the instructions are on the ADS website. Most members I've
spoken with have appreciated the ability to find e-mail
addresses of fellow members, and as far as I know there has
never been a spam-related abuse of this ability.

Jesse Sheidlower
co-listowner, ADS-L


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb 11 04:48:17 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:48:17 -0500
Subject: cross-word puzzles
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.234817.0500.>

>>-----
>>Washington Post, Apr 22, 1883, p. 2
>>
>>147 -- Crossword enigma.
>>My first is in fashion, not in mode; my second is in lane and not in road;
>>my third in peach and not in fruit; my fourth in bottle and not in cruet;
>>my fifth in seat and not in trim; my sixth in terror and not in grin; my
>>seventh in honey and not in sweet; my eighth in leave, also in retreat. My
>>whole is a magic potion.
>>-----
>
>Whoops, I included my own typo in this one.  It should read:
>
>"...my fifth in neat and not in trim..."

John Baker emails to point out another error (not mine this time).
There's a problem with the line "my fourth in bottle and not in cruet".
The fourth letter of the intended word is E, which *is* in "cruet". (The
solution, using rot-13 coding, is ARCRAGUR.)

I see that the Post also made an error in printing the solution to the
1884 puzzle posted by George Thompson.  The solution is (rot-13)
THNEQNSHV, but the Post says it's THNEQNSVA.  So apparently the Post
didn't bother with copy-editing the Puzzle Department.

(For decoding rot-13, see <http://tools.geht.net/rot13.html>.)


--Ben Zimmer


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 11 05:28:18 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:28:18 -0500
Subject: The Honey Dripper vs. The Honeydripper
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.002818.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Don't believe everything that you read. Many sources agree that
Roosevelt Sykes was the original person to call himself the "Honey
Dripper" and that his song, "The Honeydripper," was a "cover" of the
slightly-older and similarly-named "The Honeydripper."

Apparently, the word "cover" in the relevant sense has changed its
meaning when I wasn't looking. "Cover" used to mean that the recording
A by B has been re-recorded by C. In the present case, there is no
connection between the tune "The Honeydripper" by Joe Liggins and the
tune "The Honeydripper" by Roosevelt Sykes except for their similar
titles. Sykes's song in no other way resembles that of Joe Liggins.

So, I conclude that "cover" now merely means that two pieces of music
have similar titles and not that one piece of music is basically only a
re-arrangement of another piece of music. "The Twist" as recorded by
Chubby Checker is *clearly* a rip-off of the original version by Hank
Ballard and The Midnighters. By the old meaning of "cover," there is no
doubt that the second version is a cover of the first,

-Wilson Gray


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb 11 06:51:16 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:51:16 -0500
Subject: The Honey Dripper vs. The Honeydripper
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.015116.0500.>

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:28:18 -0500, Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:

>Don't believe everything that you read. Many sources agree that
>Roosevelt Sykes was the original person to call himself the "Honey
>Dripper" and that his song, "The Honeydripper," was a "cover" of the
>slightly-older and similarly-named "The Honeydripper."
>
>Apparently, the word "cover" in the relevant sense has changed its
>meaning when I wasn't looking. "Cover" used to mean that the recording
>A by B has been re-recorded by C. In the present case, there is no
>connection between the tune "The Honeydripper" by Joe Liggins and the
>tune "The Honeydripper" by Roosevelt Sykes except for their similar
>titles. Sykes's song in no other way resembles that of Joe Liggins.

Though it's true that many people seem to conflate the two songs,
Roosevelt Sykes didn't help matters much, as he *did* apparently cover the
later song after Liggins had a hit with it in 1945.  From a discussion of
the songs on the BLUES-L listserv:

-----
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/bit.listserv.blues-l/msg/0ebdc563d87ae819
The hit version was by Joe Liggins on Exclusive in 1945 and I'd guess
that this is the version (or a Specialty recut) in question.
Roosevelt Sykes (who recorded for Decca in the 1930s as The
Honeydripper) did record "The Honey Dripper" in 1936, but it wasn't
the same song.  Around 1945, he took Liggins' hit and added words and
made "The Honeydripper" for Bluebird - on it he referred that he was
"the original honeydripper".
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 11 08:25:45 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 03:25:45 EST
Subject: "Curiosity killed the cat" (1901)
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.032545.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OT: I asked the  University of Missouri's Western Historical  Manuscript
Collection what the Peter Tamony papers have on "Hawkins." The place  is
renovating, so today is the last day for requests...That thing about ProQuest  Phil
seeing his shadow and no ProQuest updates for another eight weeks. That was
supposed to be a joke.
...
...
"Care killed the cat" is earlier than "curiosity killed the cat." I see in
the Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs that "curiosity killed the cat" is traced to
Eugene O'Neill (1921). I'm away from the American Periodical Series  database.
...
When shopping for a new cat, always check to see if it's bi-curious.
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_AVALON  YOUNG WOMAN HANDCUFFED ALL DAY.; HAD COMMITTED NO CRIME, BUT
REMAINED IN IRONS.  Curiosity Got the Better of Her and She Tried to Learn the
Workings of an  Officer's "Bracelets"--Ludicrous Costumes at a Rag--time Masquerade.
RAG-TIME  MASQUERADE. SANTA CATALINA BREVITIES. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=326922192&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309
&VName=HNP&TS=1108109443&clientId=65882)
Los Angeles Times  (1886. Aug 22, 1901. p. 15 (1 page)
...
"Curiosity killed the cat," it is said.
...
...
_"FIRE?"  NO, CURIOUS MAID.; Paragon of a Domestic Servant in Short Hills
Causes  Excitement._
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=101238051&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108109038&clientId
=65882)
Special to The New York Times..  New York Times (1857-Current file). New
York, N.Y.: Jul  6, 1904. p. 9 (1 page)
...
But alas! she has one failing, that of curiosity, and her employers shudder
when they remember that it was curiosity that killed the cat.
...
...

(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
     _fitchburg_sentinel_ _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=++xTpPwvmwuKID/6NLMW2qhjhpBYR+UO1SO3xrkbInKytRd1zJjrqUIF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday,
September 03, 1908 _Fitchburg,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:fitchburg+killed+the+cat+AND)  _Massachusetts_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:massachusetts+killed+the+cat+AND)
...1 Whfiit .Srpl. Corn 79  Curiosity KILLED THE CAT. Dawaon's College
gets.....at THE funerar of Mat- THEw C. Tvas KILLED  THE qveHrurmng. of his engine at..
...
     _Washington Post _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2qoyCVVVAnntnGY4WeSjm2dZIVxqICXOJw==)  Sunday, July 21, 1912
_Washington,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:washington+killed+the+cat+AND)  _District Of Columbia_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:district_of_columbia+killed+the+cat+AND)
...that you have a very  curious and that KILLED THE CAT Aunt Anna I hope you
 and.....on my lap writing this letter Our CAT a bird oTHEr  THE naughty
thing I..
...
     _Newark Advocate _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2hkS50yEYlQ/yC2o1E0X2OgbJAMUBnbw8Q==)  Saturday, October 23,
1915 _Newark,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:newark+killed+the+cat+AND)  _Ohio_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+killed+the+cat+AND)      ...THEy say it  was curiosity that
KILLED THE CAT, but I would  like to know.....intimately and THE better THE man,
THE better qualified THE mayor,  THE..

...
     _Hopewell Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=lrCUoQlefzKKID/6NLMW2hOTmJ4yFvFotzRfNuz26G5mlpaJ8bcVoEIF+CsZYmrz)  Wednesday,
April 02, 1919 _Hopewell,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hopewell+killed+the+cat+AND)  _New Jersey_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_jersey+killed+the+cat+AND)      ...cverr
Wtintrtij n N. J  Curiosity KILLED THE CAT But Saved THE World  One.....to THE general
says Ohio State Jornal THE gi eater  THE effort to include  all..


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Fri Feb 11 14:26:13 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:26:13 -0500
Subject: Spamming the ADS - L Mailing List
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050210191107.01d7faf8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.092613.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 10, 2005, at 19:16, Educational CyberPlayGround wrote:
> Does American Dialect Society sell their members email addresses?

The American Dialect Society does not, has not, and will never sell or
rent the addresses of subscribers to the email list. There are myriad
other unavoidable ways for member addresses to be acquired, but that
will come as no secret to anyone.

Grant Barrett
American Dialect Society webmaster
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Feb 11 15:01:04 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:01:04 -0500
Subject: query: Slang Words in Standard English
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.100104.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is from the LINGUIST List,
Please do not reply to me.
http://linguistlist.org/issues/16/16-392.html
         ------------------------------------------------

Date: 07-Feb-2005
From: Hilary Sachs <hilsachs at verizon.net>
Subject: Slang Words in Standard English


Does anyone know of any examples of slang, or otherwise colorful words that
supplanted older, standard words in English?

I'm thinking of the Romance phenomenon, where some Latin words were
replaced by Vulgar Latin slang words in the Romance languages, such as or,
oris 'mouth' (standard Latin), which fell out of use and was replaced by
bucca 'cheeks puffed out from eating'. (French bouche, Sp. boca, etc.)

I can't find any English examples. Any ideas?

Thanks,

Hilary Sachs


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 11 16:50:51 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:50:51 -0500
Subject: "chocked full" (for the eggcorn files)
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.115051.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a letter of recommendation, a well-known linguist whose anonymity
will be shielded here writes that a certain student maintains a web
site "chocked full" of linguistic curiosities.  Checking on google, I
find 39,400 hits for "chocked full", but it seems clear from the
sources I checked (or chocked) that this can only be a reanalysis of
"chock-full", which has been around since the 18th and possibly even
the 15th c.  The OED reviews at its entry the long and inconclusive
debate about the origin of "chock-full" and its variant "choke-full",
and notes that

Prob. there is a recent association with CHOCK n. and v., in some of
their senses, but the latter are too late to be the origin; it is
more likely that these senses have been developed under the influence
of chock-full

Both the semantics of the adjective (cf. "crammed", "stuffed",
"packed") and the phonetic complexity of a putative -[kdf]- sequence
support the plausibility of a participial origin of "chock-full", but
given that no such origin exists, the  "chocked(-)full" spelling can
be seen as involving another hypercorrective "re"storation.

Larry


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Feb 11 17:23:09 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:23:09 -0500
Subject: "chocked full" (for the eggcorn files)
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.122309.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I always have said _chuck-full_ (which is OED 1770), much newer (more
appropriate for a kid like me).

Regards,
David
barnhart at highlands.com

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Friday, February 11,
2005 at 11:50 AM  wrote:


>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>Subject:      "chocked full" (for the eggcorn files)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>In a letter of recommendation, a well-known linguist whose anonymity
>will be shielded here writes that a certain student maintains a web
>site "chocked full" of linguistic curiosities.  Checking on google, I
>find 39,400 hits for "chocked full", but it seems clear from the
>sources I checked (or chocked) that this can only be a reanalysis of
>"chock-full", which has been around since the 18th and possibly even
>the 15th c.  The OED reviews at its entry the long and inconclusive
>debate about the origin of "chock-full" and its variant "choke-full",
>and notes that
>
>Prob. there is a recent association with CHOCK n. and v., in some of
>their senses, but the latter are too late to be the origin; it is
>more likely that these senses have been developed under the influence
>of chock-full
>
>Both the semantics of the adjective (cf. "crammed", "stuffed",
>"packed") and the phonetic complexity of a putative -[kdf]- sequence
>support the plausibility of a participial origin of "chock-full", but
>given that no such origin exists, the  "chocked(-)full" spelling can
>be seen as involving another hypercorrective "re"storation.
>
>Larry
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 11 19:10:51 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:10:51 -0500
Subject: "chocked full" (for the eggcorn files)
In-Reply-To: <p04320402be328ed516f0@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.141051.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:50 AM -0500 2/11/05, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>Both the semantics of the adjective (cf. "crammed", "stuffed",
>"packed") and the phonetic complexity of a putative -[kdf]- sequence

Of course I meant not -[kdf]- but -[k*t*f]-, as in "tactful"* or
"packed full", "stacked full".  It's not that this sequence is
impossible, but that it's relatively difficult, so it wouldn't be
surprising if a speaker assumed that a perceived "chock-full" was a
simplification of an underlying "chocked-full", as in "a sink
stack(ed) full of dishes".

>support the plausibility of a participial origin of "chock-full", but
>given that no such origin exists, the  "chocked(-)full" spelling can
>be seen as involving another hypercorrective "re"storation.
>
>Larry

*I wonder if there's any evidence that the -t- is more likely to be
retained in this one, where it's part of the adjective rather than a
separate, grammatically reconstructible morpheme as in the "Xed full"
cases.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Feb 11 19:51:23 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:51:23 -0500
Subject: our plain-spoken ancestors
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.145123.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A Wreck. -- Stranded on the island known by the name of Ragged-Ass,
lying at the south of Manticus (Hancock county). . . .  N-Y Commercial
Advertiser, March 18, 1806, p. 3, col. 2, from Dadv

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Feb 11 20:21:08 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:21:08 -0800
Subject: "chocked full" (for the eggcorn files)
In-Reply-To: <p04320402be328ed516f0@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.122108.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 11, 2005, at 8:50 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> In a letter of recommendation, a well-known linguist whose anonymity
> will be shielded here writes that a certain student maintains a web
> site "chocked full" of linguistic curiosities.  Checking on google, I
> find 39,400 hits for "chocked full", but it seems clear from the
> sources I checked (or chocked) that this can only be a reanalysis of
> "chock-full", which has been around since the 18th and possibly even
> the 15th c...

Language Log posting by Mark Liberman on some variants of "chock full",
8/18/04:
   http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001359.html

response by me, with "chocked full", 8/19/04:
   http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001363.html

(with reference back to an ADS posting of mine on 4/29/04)

arnold


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 11 21:00:32 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:00:32 -0500
Subject: "chocked full" (for the eggcorn files)
In-Reply-To: <5584e21d7295bbfd27c729c8e7ad333f@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.160032.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:21 PM -0800 2/11/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>On Feb 11, 2005, at 8:50 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>>In a letter of recommendation, a well-known linguist whose anonymity
>>will be shielded here writes that a certain student maintains a web
>>site "chocked full" of linguistic curiosities.  Checking on google, I
>>find 39,400 hits for "chocked full", but it seems clear from the
>>sources I checked (or chocked) that this can only be a reanalysis of
>>"chock-full", which has been around since the 18th and possibly even
>>the 15th c...
>
>Language Log posting by Mark Liberman on some variants of "chock full",
>8/18/04:
>   http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001359.html
>
>response by me, with "chocked full", 8/19/04:
>   http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001363.html
>
>(with reference back to an ADS posting of mine on 4/29/04)

Aha.  Should have known.  Well, now I can wonder about why the number
of google hits has more than doubled from 18.7K to 39.4K from your
search to mine.  Either the eggcorn hadn't completely hatched, or all
those new 21K instances just needed those 9 months of gestation.

larry


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 11 21:24:12 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:24:12 -0500
Subject: "chocked full" (for the eggcorn files)
In-Reply-To: <E1Czhtp-0002Ry-00@mx06.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.162412.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 11, 2005, at 4:00 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "chocked full" (for the eggcorn files)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 12:21 PM -0800 2/11/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>> On Feb 11, 2005, at 8:50 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>>
>>> In a letter of recommendation, a well-known linguist whose anonymity
>>> will be shielded here writes that a certain student maintains a web
>>> site "chocked full" of linguistic curiosities.  Checking on google, I
>>> find 39,400 hits for "chocked full", but it seems clear from the
>>> sources I checked (or chocked) that this can only be a reanalysis of
>>> "chock-full", which has been around since the 18th and possibly even
>>> the 15th c...
>>
>> Language Log posting by Mark Liberman on some variants of "chock
>> full",
>> 8/18/04:
>>   http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001359.html
>>
>> response by me, with "chocked full", 8/19/04:
>>   http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001363.html
>>
>> (with reference back to an ADS posting of mine on 4/29/04)
>
> Aha.  Should have known.  Well, now I can wonder about why the number
> of google hits has more than doubled from 18.7K to 39.4K from your
> search to mine.  Either the eggcorn hadn't completely hatched, or all
> those new 21K instances just needed those 9 months of gestation.
>
> larry
>

The answer is quite simple, Larry: using "chocked-full" is preferred to
"chock-full" because using "chock-full" would be too much like right.

I hope that my meaning is clear. Back at the '75 LSA in Frisco, a group
of three colleagues, at least one of whom is a member of this list,
approached me with a question. They asked, in effect, "Why don't you
talk black(er)?" Well, the obvious answer is that most fades have a
hard time understanding the language of shades. Having to draw a
semantic map of every turn of phrase is a stone bring-down.

-Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb 12 02:22:14 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:22:14 -0500
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicon XI; Mommywood
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.212214.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DAILY CANDY LEXICON XI

This one seems especially silly. Some of these terms have no Google hits. It's like that infamous 1990s made-up grunge slang list in the New York Times...Daily Candy once substituted for William Safire. Amazing...Here's how fake this thing is:

POX(ES) OF CHOCOLATE--0 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
VALENSPAMMER--0 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
SCAMENTINE--0 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
FEAR GOGGLING--0 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
CRYDAY THE THIRTEENTH--1 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
ENGAGE-MINT--5 Google hits (all bad), 0 Google Groups hits


http://www.dailycandy.com/article.jsp?ArticleId=22548&city=1

February 11, 2005

Lexicon XI

Is that the whisper of sweet nothings we hear echoing across the land?

Easy on the sonnets, Shakespeare. Here's the real Valentine's vocab.

bandwagoner
n. A once-single woman who traditionally swears off the holiday but is now happily coupled off and suddenly all about hearts, roses, and luuuv ...

candy-boxer
n. A cop-out gifter. ("Good old George. He's a total candy-boxer, but I still love him.")

cryday the 13th
n. The day before Valentine's Day if you don't have a boy/girlfriend.

engage-mint
n. A pre-necking breath freshener, often consumed post-BFD (Big Fat Diamond).

fear goggling
n. The act of rushing into a relationship in order to avoid spending Valentine's Day alone.

flighty Aphrodite
n. A favorite Valentine's date, she's undeniably attractive and intellectually challenged. See also foxymoron.

hetox
n. Taking a a break from romance and its attending insanities. A.k.a. turning off the valve. See also: shetox.

kama-suture
n. Aid for injuries sustained during aerobic bedroom exercises (particularly by non-aerobic types).

love at first fight
n. Syndrome experienced by those drawn to each other by arguments and make-up sex.

poxes of chocolate
n. Last-minute purchases of cheap, red-cellophane-wrapped, low-quality chocolates that make one immediately ill.

scamentine
n. Someone who always has a random hookup on Valentine's Day.

Valenspammer
n. Shallow sentimentalist who sends valentines to everyone she knows. ("Don't be flattered by Josie's card. She's a notorious Valenspammer.")

More fun with language? Oh, you literate fool. Lexicons X, IX, and VII should tide you over.


--------------------------------------------------------------
MOMMYWOOD

Julia Roberts is displaying her new babies in all the media. AOL featured it with a "Mommywood" headline yesterday.

Mommy would?


(GOOGLE) (39 hits)
Welcome to AOL.com
... Recipe for Heart Cookies. Is Hollywood Becoming Mommywood? Is Hollywood
Becoming Mommywood? AOL Celebrity. Roberts, Liv Tyler and ...
startpage.aol.com/ - 27k - Feb 10, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages

VH1 Pop Culture Dictionary - Mommywood (2003) - 0:15 (USA) ...
... Sorry but, you are not authorized to view story "VH1 Pop Culture Dictionary -
Mommywood (2003) - 0:15 (USA)". In order to view all ...
ad-rag.com/106550.php - Similar pages

Blogging | Blogging news news | Breaking blogging news | Blogging ...
... In addition to the mudflap girl image, there are several other fun prints
such as “I (heart) my OB” and a “Mommywood” sign. ...
www.hiblo.com/page290.htm - 17k - Cached - Similar pages


(GOOGLE GROUPS) (2 hits)
Murphy Brown Recants
... Witness the June issue of Los Angeles magazine, which proclaims: "Hooray for Mommywood;
a new breed of star moms makes childbirth downright glamorous." "A ...
soc.men - Dec 28 2001, 9:29 pm by JMel96 - 1 message - 1 author


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb 12 02:55:26 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:55:26 -0500
Subject: "Stuff you sorries in a sack" (Seinfeld, 20 Nov. 1997)
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.215526.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

STUFF SORRYS IN A SACK--280 Google hits, 13 Google Groups hits
STUFF SORRIES IN A SACK--279 Google hits, 47 Google Groups hits
STUFF SORRY'S IN A SACK--48 Google hits, 13 Google Groups hits


On today's Gothamist.com, it was asked whether baseball fans will tell Jason Giambi to "stuff his sorry's in a sack."

Fred Shapiro might want to include this with other Seinfeld speech. "Stuff your sorries in a sack" appears to have been coined with the November 20, 1997 episode.

Before Seinfeld, people used to pack up their troubles in an old kit bag and smile, smile, smile.



(GOOGLE GROUPS)
WW I Songs
... PACK UP YOUR TROUBLES Pack up your troubles in your old kit bag & smile, smile,
smile While you've a lucifer to light your fag, smile boys, that's the style ...
rec.music.folk - Nov 12 1995, 9:57 am by Tom Morgan - 13 messages - 12 authors


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
What was it that George Kept Saying??
"You can stuff your sorry's in a bag, mister!" actually, I believe it was "you can
stuff your sorries in a sack, mister!" Now wait a minute you two. ...
alt.tv.seinfeld - Nov 28 1997, 12:58 am by Slo - 12 messages - 11 authors

Jerry Moves In (20Nov97 ep)
... Thats a good question, and I always thought Jerry moved in before Kramer ever did.
Jason Jasdeen at aol.com "You can stuff your sorries in a sack!"
alt.tv.seinfeld - Nov 21 1997, 10:28 am by Jasdeen - 19 messages - 18 authors

11/20: Brilliant!
... There's more! Kramer and FDR yanking out eyelashes. (Franklin Delano Romankowski???)
Elaine: "He Schnapped me!" "Stuff your sorries in a sack, mister!" Notice ...
alt.tv.seinfeld - Nov 21 1997, 6:18 am by Dave - 23 messages - 17 authors

When a show sucks
Everyone has diffrent tastes in Seinfeld episodes. Jason Jasdeen at aol.com
"You can just stuff your sorries in a sack!"- - -George
alt.tv.seinfeld - Nov 21 1997, 12:21 am by Jasdeen - 6 messages - 6 authors


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Feb 12 04:02:45 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:02:45 -0500
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicon XI; Mommywood
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.230245.0500.>

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:22:14 -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>DAILY CANDY LEXICON XI
>
>This one seems especially silly. Some of these terms have no Google hits.
>It's like that infamous 1990s made-up grunge slang list in the New York
>Times...
[snip]

Or perhaps the model is the much wittier "Frictionary" slang made up by
Heather Havrilesky (aka "Polly Esther") for the now-defunct Suck website.

   http://www.suck.com/daily/2000/01/26/
   26 Jan 2000  Frictionary!

   http://www.suck.com/daily/2000/06/28/
   28 Jun 2000  Time For More Frictionary!

I don't know if any of Havrilesky's slang caught on, but I did notice in
one of her recent TV columns for Salon that she revived the useful term
"fraudience" ("a group of spectators abnormally populated by rabid
enthusiasts and fans placed there by PR reps")...

   http://salon.com/ent/tv/review/2005/02/07/i_like/
   Later, Ashlee called in to "TRL" and prattled on about swollen vocal
   cords and severe acid reflux to a fraudience of screaming girls.


--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb 12 06:38:15 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 01:38:15 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.013815.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Hawkins," "made in de shade, sold in de sun," and others of interest here.


AMERICAN NEGRO FOLKLORE
by J. Mason Brewer
Chicago: Quadrangle Books
1968

Pg. 189 (Slave Seculars and Work Songs):
_I Went to Atlanta_

I Went to Atlanta
Never been dere a-fo'
White folks eat de apple
Nigger wait fo' co'

(Other verses are "White folks sleep on feather bed" and "White folks wear de fancy suit" and "White folks sit in Lawd's place"--ed.)

Pg. 304 (Cold Weather Signs): If turkeys roost high in a tree, it's a sign of cold weather. You will hear the old folks say, "Look out, children. Hawkins is coming."

Pg. 323 (Creole Proverbs):
Great to speak, little to do.
One goes everywhere with fine clothes.
Ox who comes first always drinks clear water.
Pg. 324:
That is not the baptism of a doll. (No laughing matter.)
When the tree falls the goat climbs it.
The best swimmer is often drowned.
When one is very hungry one does not peel the sweet potato.
His tongue knows no Sunday.
I keep nothing hidden in the sideboard. (I keep nothing back.)
Set your type before you go and then read it. (Have on your tongue what you are going to say.)

Pg. 338 ("Dirty Dozens" Rhymes):
Yo' mama's in de kitchen; yo' papa's in jail;
Yo' sister's round de corner, hollerin' "Hot stuff for sale."

Pg. 339 (Street Cries):
I sell to the rich,
I sell to the po';
I'm gonna sell the lady
Standin' in that do'.

I got water with the melon, red to the rind!
If you don't believe it just pull down your blind.
You eat the watermelon and preee-serve the rind!

Pg. 340:
We sell it to the rich, we sell it to the poor,
We give it to the sweet brownskin, peepin' out the door.
_Tout chaud, Madame, tout chaud!_
Git 'em while they're hot. Hot _calas_!

The Waffle Man is a fine old man.
He washes his face in a frying-pan.
He makes his waffles with his hand.
Everybody loved the waffle man.

Char-coal! Char-coal!
My horse is white, my face is black.
I sell my charcoal, two-bits a sack--
Char-coal! Char-coal!

Pg. 342:
Porgy walk; Porgy talk,
Porgy eat wid a knife an' fork;
Porgy-e-e-e-!

Vanilla, chocolate, peach cream
Dat surely freezed by de stream.
It was made in de shade, an' is sold in de sun.
If you ain't got a nickel, you can't get none.

Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
The same old rag man comin' this a-way.

Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.
Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
Raw, raw, raw.

Pg. 343 (Jeering and Taunting Rhymes):
A bushel o' wheat, a bushel o' san',
Ah'd rather be a nigger than a po' white man.

You bowlegged, lazy,
An' almo' half crazy.

Pg. 367 (Autograph Album Rhymes):
You can kiss beneath a grapevine, you can kiss beneath the rose,
But the best place I know of is to kiss beneath the nose.

Pg. 368:
Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
If you don't love nobody, keep it to yourself.

Up the hickory, an' down the pine;
Good-looking boys is hard to find.

Sugar is sweet, an' coffee is strong;
Write me a letter, and don't be long.

It takes a rocking chair to rock,
A rubber ball to roll,
A tall, skinny papa
To satisfy my soul.

Orange is a city, Lemon is a state;
I wrote you a letter, but I forgot de date.

Pg. 369:
My papa is a butcher,
My mama cuts de meat.
Ah'm de little weiner-wish
Dat runs around destreet.

If the ocean was milk, and the bottom was cream,
I'd dive for you like a submarine.

Cream cheese, cream cheese floatin' in the air,
That bald-headed man ain't got no hair.

Pg. 373 (Ring-Game Songs):
Ooka dooka soda cracker,
Does your father chew tobacco?
Yes, my father chews tobacco.
Ooka dooka soda cracker.


Copy cat, copy cat, sittin' on duh fence,
Trying' tuh make a dollar out o' fifteen cents.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Trenton Times  Monday, October 17, 1904 Trenton, New Jersey
...of whioti starts off with "ANY RAGS, ANY BONES, ANY bottles today." Of course.....Fred Barlow, asked, "Have you ANY rags today''" H happened that Just..


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb 12 07:47:47 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:47:47 -0500
Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.024747.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Even "I must develop my bust" is here!...ProQuest is down right now, so I'll search these with Newspaperarchive.


FROM MY PEOPLE:
400 YEARS OF AFICAN AMERICAN FOLKLORE
edited by Caryl Cumber Dance
New York: W. W. Norton
2002

Pg. 470 (Aphorisms and Other Proverbial Sayings):
God don't like ugly.
Hard head, soft behind.

Pg. 471:
You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.--Medgar Evans.

Pg. 480:
_I'll Eat Hen I'm Hungry_
>From Thomas W. Talley, _Negro Folk Rhymes_

I'll eat when I'se hungry,
An' I'll rink when I'se dry;
An' if de whitefolks don't kill me,
I'll live till I die.

In my liddle log cabin,
Ever since I've been born;
Dere hain't been no nothin'
'Cept dat hard salt parch corn.
Pg. 481:
But I knows what's a henhouse,
An' de tucky he charve;
An' if old Mosser don't kill me,
I cain't never starve.

_Aught's a Aughts_
Traditional

An aught's a aught and a figger's a figger;
All for the white folks and none for the nigger.

Pg. 509:
_Hambone, Hambone_
This traditional clapping game may be played with a partner or one indiv,; slap his thigh as he recites. Additional lines may be improvised.

Hambone, Hambone, where you been?
Round the world and back again.

Hambone, Hambone, what'd you do?
I got a train and I fairly flew.

Hambone, Hambone, where'd you stay?
I met a pretty girl and I couldn't get away.

Hambone, Hambone, where'd you go?
I hopped up to Miss Lucy's door.

Hambone, Hambone, what's you see?
I asked Miss Lucy to marry me.

Pg. 511:
_We Must, We Must, We Must_
>From Daryl Cumber Dance, _Honey, Hush!_
WHen I recorded this verse on May 21, 1995, the singer told me she learned it in gym class in the 1950s, but as she sang a younger woman joined her, suggesting that it has passed on to the next generation.

We must, we must, we must,
We must develop our bust.

We must, we must, we must,
We must develop our bust.

The bigger the better,
The tighter the sweater.
The boys are depending on us.

Pg. 526 (Autograph Album Rhymes, from J. Mason Brewer, _Worser Days and Better Times_):
Love all, trust few;
Learn to paddle your own canoe.

Pg. 527:
When you marry and get out of shape,
Get you a girdle for $2.98.

The Mississippi River is deep and wide;
Catch an alligator to the other side.

Girls are made of sugar and spice;
Boys aren't made, they just shoot dice.

When you get old and think you're sweet,
Take off your shoes, and smell your feet.

I wish you luck, I wish you joy,
I wish you first a baby boy;
And when his hair beings to curl,
I wish you next a baby girl;
And when her hair begins to knot,
I guess you know it's time to stop.

Ice cream city, candy state,
This sweet letter don't need no date.

Up on a house top, baking a cake,
The way I love you is no mistake.

Pg. 528:
I don't make love by the garden gate,
For love is blind, but the neighbors ain't.

I've got a cute little shape, and a pretty little figure;
Stand back, big boys, until I get a little bigger!

I love you once, I love you twice;
Baby, I love you next to Jesus Christ.

Milk is milk, cheese is cheese;
What is a kiss without a squeeze?

You're my morning milk, my evening cream,
My all-day study, and my midnight dream.

Roses on my shoulders, slippers on my feet;
I'm my mother's baby, don't you think I'm sweet?

Apples on the shelf, peaches in the bowl,
Can't get a sweetheart to save my soul.

Up on the mountain, five feet high,
I love you, baby, that ain't no lie.

Pg. 529:
When you get married and have twenty-four,
Don't stop there, the Army needs lots more.

When you get married and your husband gets drunk,
Put him in the trunk and sell him for junk.

When you get married and have twenty-five,
Daon't call it a family, call it a tribe!

The river is wide, the boat is floating,
Darling, let's marry and stop this courting!

Ice is ice, rice is rice;
One day, baby, you'll be my wife.

Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
Baby, I'm getting tired of sleeping by myself.

When you get married and live in China,
Rememeber me back in old North Carolina.

Life is sweet, life is swell,
But when you marry, life is hell.

When you marry and live across the lake,
Send me a kiss by a rattlesnake.

When you get married and live upstairs,
DOn't fall down putting on airs.

When you marry don't marry a cook,
Marry a man with a fat pocketbook.

When you marry and live across the sea,
Send me a cocoanut C.O.D.

Lions in the cage, monkeys in the zoo,
Who wants to marry a fool like you?

Pg. 530:
If you don't like my apples, don't shake my tree;
I ain't after your man, he's after me.

When you get married and live out west,
I'll send your mail by the Jigger express.

Pg. 531 (Rhymes and Brags from Muhammad Ali, formerly Cassius Clay)
I'm so mean, I make medicine sick.--Neil Leifer and Thomas Hauser, _Muhammad Ali Memories_

Pg. 549:
_More Dozens_
Because the dozens is such an obscene exchange, no attempt is made to reproduce a game here. Rather I present some carefully chosen standard lines from the game.

Yo' mama's like a bag of chips. She free to lay.
Yo' mama's so dumb she tripped over a cordless phone.
Yo' mama's so stupid it takes her two hours to watch _60 Minutes_.
Yo' mama's so dumb she thought she could send a voice mail by screaming into a envelope.
Yo' mama's so bald she gets brainwashed when she takes a shower.

Pg. 550:
Yo' mama's in the kitchen; yo' daddy's in jail;
yo' sister on de corner offering it for sale.

_Insults_

Happy birthday to you,
You belong in a zoo.
You look like a monkey,
And smell like one too!

My name is Ran,
I work in the sand;
I'd rather be a nigger
Than a poor White man.

White folks think they fine,
But their raggedy drawers stink just like mine.

He is so ugly he has to _sneak_ up on a mirror.

Pg. 551:
At least my mama ain't no doorknob,
Everybody get a turn.

Least my mama ain't no railroad track,
Lay out all over the country.

_Retorts_

Tell the truth, snaggle tooth.
What you mean, jelly bean?

Pg. 552:
See you later, Alligator.
After while, Crocodile.

I dig all jive.
That's the reason I stay alive.

Your eyes may shine, your teeth may grit,
But none of this food will you git.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Charleroi Mail  Friday, December 01, 1950 Charleroi, Pennsylvania
...Wilson in v.luch eyes MAY YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. Hut none of my money Will you.....sides arc still alking indicates there MAY be scTine ope left. When Girl Portia..

   Daily Register  Saturday, December 23, 1950 Harrisburg, Illinois
...her: "YOUR eyes MAY shine. YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. But none of my money Will you.....a Merry a New Year Holland's HOLIDAY MAY YOUR Holiday Cheer go on and on REES..


   Edwardsville Intelligencer  Wednesday, July 08, 1964 Edwardsville, Illinois
...you DON'T want MY peaches, DON'T SHAKE MY TREE. When you saw a red-haired girl.....Neutral IS A Nice GearBut DON'T You Have Any GOLDWATER--ATRAGEDY..


   Lancaster Eagle Gazette  Thursday, July 18, 1974 Lancaster, Ohio
...a brick. I'm so mean I MAKE MEDICINE SICK. The occasion for Ali's.....now than ever before which could MAKE up for some parts .of my game that..


   Mountain Democrat  Friday, February 17, 1989 Placerville, California
...I wIsh YOU luck, I wIsh YOU JOY, "I wIsh YOU fIrst a BABY BOY. "AND when hIs.....haIr begIns to curl, I wIsh YOU then a BABY gIrl. AND when her..



   Post Standard  Friday, August 23, 1991 Syracuse, New York
...comment on that situation and I 'GOD DOESN'T LIKE UGLY. He'll handle the.....coming. He is such a strong Peters DOESN'T have to be con- vinced of Seals..

   Post Standard  Sunday, March 19, 2000 Syracuse, New York
...to the public. For more 435-2155. 'GOD DON'T LIKE UGLY' An inspirational gospel.....musi- DON'T LIKE comes to the Landmark 362 S..


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Feb 12 17:11:20 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:11:20 -0500
Subject: like sardines in a can
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.121120.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED: 1911 packed like sardines in a box

OED: 1922 [Dialect Notes]  However, if one fishes around in the electronic
edition, there is _packed like sardines_ in Harper's Magazine (April 1887).

But, I stumbled across the following:

We passed a most miserable night.  We lay down as best we could, and were
packed like sardines in a box.  All wanted to sleep; but if one man moved,
he woke half a dozen others, who again in waking roused all the rest; so
seelp was, like our supper, onlyu to be enjoyed in imagination, and aall
we could do was to wait intently for daylight.
J.D. Borthwick, _To California Via Panama_, London: 1857, in _Pictures of
Gold Rush California_, Chicago: Lakeside Press, 1949, Chapter 2 p 49

For me, sardines come packed in a can.  So, the expression ought to read
for modern contexts "[packed] like sardines in a can."  It's not in OED.

The earliest quote I've found so far for this is:

"Butrning cotton is one of the most stubborn fires to extinguish," said
assistant fire chief W.B. Cooper.  "And that boxcar was packed like
sardines in a can."  _Daily Journal_ [Commerce, Texas], Sept. 16, 1957, p 1

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM  Sat Feb 12 17:51:39 2005
From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:51:39 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <200502112238824.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.125139.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DOMINO
live sound field recording copyright 1979
by karen ellis
Guavaberry Books
1990
All collected from St. Croix USVI
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/GuavaberryBooks/Domino/descript.html

DESCRIPTION OF DOMINO
IF YO' PUT YO EAR A MANGO ROOT
YO' WILL HEAR CRAB COUGH.

Chapter 1 -
Clap Pattern: Spoken Chants and Songs

Domino

I Saw Your Boyfriend

Shame Shame Shame

Twenty-Four Black Birds

Jack Be Nimble

Four White Horses

Down Down Baby

Under the Blue Bush

The Number Song

Mama Lama

Mosquito One

Mayzoo

Humming Bird I

Humming Bird II

Una Dos y Tres

Coolie Man House

Grandmother

Have You Ever Seen a Chicken


Chapter 2 -
Circle Games, Line Dances, Call and Response

There's a Brown Girl in the Ring

Ding Dong

Kiss Kiss

Here Comes Jockey

Down in the River

Alabamba

Dutch Girl

Mother Goose

Miss Mary Had a Baby

In a Fine Castle

Santa Me Sayzee

Jane and Louisa

I Went to California

Bucket of Water

A Tisket A Tasket

Christmas Coming

Mister Wolf


Chapter 3 -
Jump Rope: Spoken Chants and Songs

Elimination Games and Jokes

Lambooshay

Teddy Bear

Johnny Jump on One Foot

I'm a Liar

Down by the Service Station

Solomon Agrundy

My Mother Your Mother

Cinderella

Down by the River

Sally Sally Water

All Together

The Queen of Hearts

Sea Shell Cockle Shell

Fish Fish

Elimination Games and Jokes

--- karen

<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
Guavaberry Books
<http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/GuavaberryBooks.html>
Domino - Traditional Children's Songs, Proverbs, and Culture U.S.V.I.
Find Music Books by The Funk Brothers  - 2x Grammy Winners

National Children's Folksong Repository
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html

The Educational CyberPlayGround
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/

Hot List of Schools Online
Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters
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From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Feb 12 19:11:15 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:11:15 -0500
Subject: like sardines in a can
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.141115.0500.>

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:11:20 -0500, Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM> wrote:

>OED: 1911 packed like sardines in a box
>
>OED: 1922 [Dialect Notes]  However, if one fishes around in the electronic
>edition, there is _packed like sardines_ in Harper's Magazine (April 1887).
>
>But, I stumbled across the following:
>
>We passed a most miserable night.  We lay down as best we could, and were
>packed like sardines in a box.  All wanted to sleep; but if one man moved,
>he woke half a dozen others, who again in waking roused all the rest; so
>seelp was, like our supper, onlyu to be enjoyed in imagination, and aall
>we could do was to wait intently for daylight.
>J.D. Borthwick, _To California Via Panama_, London: 1857, in _Pictures of
>Gold Rush California_, Chicago: Lakeside Press, 1949, Chapter 2 p 49
>
>For me, sardines come packed in a can.  So, the expression ought to read
>for modern contexts "[packed] like sardines in a can."  It's not in OED.
>
>The earliest quote I've found so far for this is:
>
>"Butrning cotton is one of the most stubborn fires to extinguish," said
>assistant fire chief W.B. Cooper.  "And that boxcar was packed like
>sardines in a can."  _Daily Journal_ [Commerce, Texas], Sept. 16, 1957, p 1

Proquest is still down, but Cornell's Making of America has this:

--------
http://tinyurl.com/3hwaf
Conneau, Théophile.
Captain Canot; or, Twenty years of an African slaver; 1854.
Page 74

I found it impossible to adjust the whole in a sitting posture; but we
made them lie down in each other's laps, like sardines in a can, and in
this way obtained space for the entire cargo.

Also reprinted in:
http://tinyurl.com/4leu8
"Twenty Years in the Slave-Trade", p. 163
The North American review. / Volume 80, Issue 166, January 1855
--------


--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Feb 12 19:30:31 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:30:31 -0500
Subject: like sardines in a can
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.143031.0500.>

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:11:15 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer
<bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU> wrote:

>Proquest is still down, but Cornell's Making of America has this:
>
>--------
>http://tinyurl.com/3hwaf
>Conneau, Théophile.
>Captain Canot; or, Twenty years of an African slaver; 1854.
>Page 74
>
>I found it impossible to adjust the whole in a sitting posture; but we
>made them lie down in each other's laps, like sardines in a can, and in
>this way obtained space for the entire cargo.
>
>Also reprinted in:
>http://tinyurl.com/4leu8
>"Twenty Years in the Slave-Trade", p. 163
>The North American review. / Volume 80, Issue 166, January 1855
>--------

Sorry, the first citation is actually from Michigan's MoA database (which
has a book collection not available on Cornell's MoA).  And the author of
the book is actually Brantz Mayer, who based the work on Conneau's
journals.


--Ben Zimmer


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Sat Feb 12 21:37:11 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:37:11 +0000
Subject: huffing and puffing
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.213711.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have been lent a book titled '61 Pimlico', supposedly the journal of one
mid-Victorian photographer named Henry Haylor (ed Bill Jay, Nazraeli Press,
Tucson, 1998).

I strongly suspect that it is  fabrication. However, the following sentence
caught my eye, and I wondered if anyone has any evidence of early use of the
phrase 'huffing and puffing'.

'We talked for hours, each of us huffing and puffing away like noisy steam
engines on different tracks until, in the middle of my most eloquent, and
pompous, tirades she closed my mouth with hers.'

-Neil Crawford


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Sat Feb 12 22:27:41 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:27:41 +0000
Subject: huffing and puffing+
In-Reply-To: <200502122137.j1CLbEjb019864@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.222741.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Me again:

'Prince [of Wales - topical, or what?] or no I was primed for a quick
work-out with this bouncing beauty there and then.' - Ibid, 50

? earliest date for 'work-out'.

-Neil Crawford


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Feb 12 22:41:15 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:41:15 -0800
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.144115.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jawbone walk, jawbone talk,
Jawbone eat with a knife and fork.
          ---Old Minstrel Song


Mama's in the kitchen,
Papa's in jail.
Sister's on the corner,
Yellin' "Pussy for sale!"

           ---From a song called "Alley Boogie,"  sung on the march by U.S. Marines in New Zealand in WW II.

Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man,
Washed his face in a fryin' pan,
Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
Died with the toothache in his heel.

          ---Old Minstrel Song, "Old Dan Tucker"

JL


Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Hawkins," "made in de shade, sold in de sun," and others of interest here.


AMERICAN NEGRO FOLKLORE
by J. Mason Brewer
Chicago: Quadrangle Books
1968

Pg. 189 (Slave Seculars and Work Songs):
_I Went to Atlanta_

I Went to Atlanta
Never been dere a-fo'
White folks eat de apple
Nigger wait fo' co'

(Other verses are "White folks sleep on feather bed" and "White folks wear de fancy suit" and "White folks sit in Lawd's place"--ed.)

Pg. 304 (Cold Weather Signs): If turkeys roost high in a tree, it's a sign of cold weather. You will hear the old folks say, "Look out, children. Hawkins is coming."

Pg. 323 (Creole Proverbs):
Great to speak, little to do.
One goes everywhere with fine clothes.
Ox who comes first always drinks clear water.
Pg. 324:
That is not the baptism of a doll. (No laughing matter.)
When the tree falls the goat climbs it.
The best swimmer is often drowned.
When one is very hungry one does not peel the sweet potato.
His tongue knows no Sunday.
I keep nothing hidden in the sideboard. (I keep nothing back.)
Set your type before you go and then read it. (Have on your tongue what you are going to say.)

Pg. 338 ("Dirty Dozens" Rhymes):
Yo' mama's in de kitchen; yo' papa's in jail;
Yo' sister's round de corner, hollerin' "Hot stuff for sale."

Pg. 339 (Street Cries):
I sell to the rich,
I sell to the po';
I'm gonna sell the lady
Standin' in that do'.

I got water with the melon, red to the rind!
If you don't believe it just pull down your blind.
You eat the watermelon and preee-serve the rind!

Pg. 340:
We sell it to the rich, we sell it to the poor,
We give it to the sweet brownskin, peepin' out the door.
_Tout chaud, Madame, tout chaud!_
Git 'em while they're hot. Hot _calas_!

The Waffle Man is a fine old man.
He washes his face in a frying-pan.
He makes his waffles with his hand.
Everybody loved the waffle man.

Char-coal! Char-coal!
My horse is white, my face is black.
I sell my charcoal, two-bits a sack--
Char-coal! Char-coal!

Pg. 342:
Porgy walk; Porgy talk,
Porgy eat wid a knife an' fork;
Porgy-e-e-e-!

Vanilla, chocolate, peach cream
Dat surely freezed by de stream.
It was made in de shade, an' is sold in de sun.
If you ain't got a nickel, you can't get none.

Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
The same old rag man comin' this a-way.

Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.
Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
Raw, raw, raw.

Pg. 343 (Jeering and Taunting Rhymes):
A bushel o' wheat, a bushel o' san',
Ah'd rather be a nigger than a po' white man.

You bowlegged, lazy,
An' almo' half crazy.

Pg. 367 (Autograph Album Rhymes):
You can kiss beneath a grapevine, you can kiss beneath the rose,
But the best place I know of is to kiss beneath the nose.

Pg. 368:
Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
If you don't love nobody, keep it to yourself.

Up the hickory, an' down the pine;
Good-looking boys is hard to find.

Sugar is sweet, an' coffee is strong;
Write me a letter, and don't be long.

It takes a rocking chair to rock,
A rubber ball to roll,
A tall, skinny papa
To satisfy my soul.

Orange is a city, Lemon is a state;
I wrote you a letter, but I forgot de date.

Pg. 369:
My papa is a butcher,
My mama cuts de meat.
Ah'm de little weiner-wish
Dat runs around destreet.

If the ocean was milk, and the bottom was cream,
I'd dive for you like a submarine.

Cream cheese, cream cheese floatin' in the air,
That bald-headed man ain't got no hair.

Pg. 373 (Ring-Game Songs):
Ooka dooka soda cracker,
Does your father chew tobacco?
Yes, my father chews tobacco.
Ooka dooka soda cracker.


Copy cat, copy cat, sittin' on duh fence,
Trying' tuh make a dollar out o' fifteen cents.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
Trenton Times Monday, October 17, 1904 Trenton, New Jersey
...of whioti starts off with "ANY RAGS, ANY BONES, ANY bottles today." Of course.....Fred Barlow, asked, "Have you ANY rags today''" H happened that Just..


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Feb 12 22:43:48 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:43:48 -0800
Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.144348.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That should be "Medgar Evers."

JL

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even "I must develop my bust" is here!...ProQuest is down right now, so I'll search these with Newspaperarchive.


FROM MY PEOPLE:
400 YEARS OF AFICAN AMERICAN FOLKLORE
edited by Caryl Cumber Dance
New York: W. W. Norton
2002

Pg. 470 (Aphorisms and Other Proverbial Sayings):
God don't like ugly.
Hard head, soft behind.

Pg. 471:
You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.--Medgar Evans.

Pg. 480:
_I'll Eat Hen I'm Hungry_
>From Thomas W. Talley, _Negro Folk Rhymes_

I'll eat when I'se hungry,
An' I'll rink when I'se dry;
An' if de whitefolks don't kill me,
I'll live till I die.

In my liddle log cabin,
Ever since I've been born;
Dere hain't been no nothin'
'Cept dat hard salt parch corn.
Pg. 481:
But I knows what's a henhouse,
An' de tucky he charve;
An' if old Mosser don't kill me,
I cain't never starve.

_Aught's a Aughts_
Traditional

An aught's a aught and a figger's a figger;
All for the white folks and none for the nigger.

Pg. 509:
_Hambone, Hambone_
This traditional clapping game may be played with a partner or one indiv,; slap his thigh as he recites. Additional lines may be improvised.

Hambone, Hambone, where you been?
Round the world and back again.

Hambone, Hambone, what'd you do?
I got a train and I fairly flew.

Hambone, Hambone, where'd you stay?
I met a pretty girl and I couldn't get away.

Hambone, Hambone, where'd you go?
I hopped up to Miss Lucy's door.

Hambone, Hambone, what's you see?
I asked Miss Lucy to marry me.

Pg. 511:
_We Must, We Must, We Must_
>From Daryl Cumber Dance, _Honey, Hush!_
WHen I recorded this verse on May 21, 1995, the singer told me she learned it in gym class in the 1950s, but as she sang a younger woman joined her, suggesting that it has passed on to the next generation.

We must, we must, we must,
We must develop our bust.

We must, we must, we must,
We must develop our bust.

The bigger the better,
The tighter the sweater.
The boys are depending on us.

Pg. 526 (Autograph Album Rhymes, from J. Mason Brewer, _Worser Days and Better Times_):
Love all, trust few;
Learn to paddle your own canoe.

Pg. 527:
When you marry and get out of shape,
Get you a girdle for $2.98.

The Mississippi River is deep and wide;
Catch an alligator to the other side.

Girls are made of sugar and spice;
Boys aren't made, they just shoot dice.

When you get old and think you're sweet,
Take off your shoes, and smell your feet.

I wish you luck, I wish you joy,
I wish you first a baby boy;
And when his hair beings to curl,
I wish you next a baby girl;
And when her hair begins to knot,
I guess you know it's time to stop.

Ice cream city, candy state,
This sweet letter don't need no date.

Up on a house top, baking a cake,
The way I love you is no mistake.

Pg. 528:
I don't make love by the garden gate,
For love is blind, but the neighbors ain't.

I've got a cute little shape, and a pretty little figure;
Stand back, big boys, until I get a little bigger!

I love you once, I love you twice;
Baby, I love you next to Jesus Christ.

Milk is milk, cheese is cheese;
What is a kiss without a squeeze?

You're my morning milk, my evening cream,
My all-day study, and my midnight dream.

Roses on my shoulders, slippers on my feet;
I'm my mother's baby, don't you think I'm sweet?

Apples on the shelf, peaches in the bowl,
Can't get a sweetheart to save my soul.

Up on the mountain, five feet high,
I love you, baby, that ain't no lie.

Pg. 529:
When you get married and have twenty-four,
Don't stop there, the Army needs lots more.

When you get married and your husband gets drunk,
Put him in the trunk and sell him for junk.

When you get married and have twenty-five,
Daon't call it a family, call it a tribe!

The river is wide, the boat is floating,
Darling, let's marry and stop this courting!

Ice is ice, rice is rice;
One day, baby, you'll be my wife.

Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
Baby, I'm getting tired of sleeping by myself.

When you get married and live in China,
Rememeber me back in old North Carolina.

Life is sweet, life is swell,
But when you marry, life is hell.

When you marry and live across the lake,
Send me a kiss by a rattlesnake.

When you get married and live upstairs,
DOn't fall down putting on airs.

When you marry don't marry a cook,
Marry a man with a fat pocketbook.

When you marry and live across the sea,
Send me a cocoanut C.O.D.

Lions in the cage, monkeys in the zoo,
Who wants to marry a fool like you?

Pg. 530:
If you don't like my apples, don't shake my tree;
I ain't after your man, he's after me.

When you get married and live out west,
I'll send your mail by the Jigger express.

Pg. 531 (Rhymes and Brags from Muhammad Ali, formerly Cassius Clay)
I'm so mean, I make medicine sick.--Neil Leifer and Thomas Hauser, _Muhammad Ali Memories_

Pg. 549:
_More Dozens_
Because the dozens is such an obscene exchange, no attempt is made to reproduce a game here. Rather I present some carefully chosen standard lines from the game.

Yo' mama's like a bag of chips. She free to lay.
Yo' mama's so dumb she tripped over a cordless phone.
Yo' mama's so stupid it takes her two hours to watch _60 Minutes_.
Yo' mama's so dumb she thought she could send a voice mail by screaming into a envelope.
Yo' mama's so bald she gets brainwashed when she takes a shower.

Pg. 550:
Yo' mama's in the kitchen; yo' daddy's in jail;
yo' sister on de corner offering it for sale.

_Insults_

Happy birthday to you,
You belong in a zoo.
You look like a monkey,
And smell like one too!

My name is Ran,
I work in the sand;
I'd rather be a nigger
Than a poor White man.

White folks think they fine,
But their raggedy drawers stink just like mine.

He is so ugly he has to _sneak_ up on a mirror.

Pg. 551:
At least my mama ain't no doorknob,
Everybody get a turn.

Least my mama ain't no railroad track,
Lay out all over the country.

_Retorts_

Tell the truth, snaggle tooth.
What you mean, jelly bean?

Pg. 552:
See you later, Alligator.
After while, Crocodile.

I dig all jive.
That's the reason I stay alive.

Your eyes may shine, your teeth may grit,
But none of this food will you git.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
Charleroi Mail Friday, December 01, 1950 Charleroi, Pennsylvania
...Wilson in v.luch eyes MAY YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. Hut none of my money Will you.....sides arc still alking indicates there MAY be scTine ope left. When Girl Portia..

Daily Register Saturday, December 23, 1950 Harrisburg, Illinois
...her: "YOUR eyes MAY shine. YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. But none of my money Will you.....a Merry a New Year Holland's HOLIDAY MAY YOUR Holiday Cheer go on and on REES..


Edwardsville Intelligencer Wednesday, July 08, 1964 Edwardsville, Illinois
...you DON'T want MY peaches, DON'T SHAKE MY TREE. When you saw a red-haired girl.....Neutral IS A Nice GearBut DON'T You Have Any GOLDWATER--ATRAGEDY..


Lancaster Eagle Gazette Thursday, July 18, 1974 Lancaster, Ohio
...a brick. I'm so mean I MAKE MEDICINE SICK. The occasion for Ali's.....now than ever before which could MAKE up for some parts .of my game that..


Mountain Democrat Friday, February 17, 1989 Placerville, California
...I wIsh YOU luck, I wIsh YOU JOY, "I wIsh YOU fIrst a BABY BOY. "AND when hIs.....haIr begIns to curl, I wIsh YOU then a BABY gIrl. AND when her..



Post Standard Friday, August 23, 1991 Syracuse, New York
...comment on that situation and I 'GOD DOESN'T LIKE UGLY. He'll handle the.....coming. He is such a strong Peters DOESN'T have to be con- vinced of Seals..

Post Standard Sunday, March 19, 2000 Syracuse, New York
...to the public. For more 435-2155. 'GOD DON'T LIKE UGLY' An inspirational gospel.....musi- DON'T LIKE comes to the Landmark 362 S..


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Feb 12 22:45:54 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:45:54 -0800
Subject: like sardines in a can
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.144554.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

With reference to the NYC subway, I have only heard, "We were packed like sardines."  From 1950s at least.

JL

Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Barnhart
Subject: like sardines in a can
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OED: 1911 packed like sardines in a box

OED: 1922 [Dialect Notes] However, if one fishes around in the electronic
edition, there is _packed like sardines_ in Harper's Magazine (April 1887).

But, I stumbled across the following:

We passed a most miserable night. We lay down as best we could, and were
packed like sardines in a box. All wanted to sleep; but if one man moved,
he woke half a dozen others, who again in waking roused all the rest; so
seelp was, like our supper, onlyu to be enjoyed in imagination, and aall
we could do was to wait intently for daylight.
J.D. Borthwick, _To California Via Panama_, London: 1857, in _Pictures of
Gold Rush California_, Chicago: Lakeside Press, 1949, Chapter 2 p 49

For me, sardines come packed in a can. So, the expression ought to read
for modern contexts "[packed] like sardines in a can." It's not in OED.

The earliest quote I've found so far for this is:

"Butrning cotton is one of the most stubborn fires to extinguish," said
assistant fire chief W.B. Cooper. "And that boxcar was packed like
sardines in a can." _Daily Journal_ [Commerce, Texas], Sept. 16, 1957, p 1

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Sat Feb 12 23:19:04 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:19:04 +0000
Subject: big picture
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.231904.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Help me out here.

'You have been so obsessed with your own private crusade against sexual  and
artistic repression waged in the tiny arena of aesthetics that you have been
blind to the big picture.'
-ibid ['61 Pimlico']. 60

earliest date please;

-Neil Crawford


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Sat Feb 12 23:20:58 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:20:58 +0000
Subject: looney bin
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.232058.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

? earliest appearance.

-Neil Crawford


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Feb 12 23:39:11 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:39:11 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <E1Czqv8-0005lf-00@mx10.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.183911.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 12, 2005, at 1:38 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      American Negro Folklore (1968)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Hawkins," "made in de shade, sold in de sun," and others of interest
> here.
>
>
> AMERICAN NEGRO FOLKLORE
> by J. Mason Brewer

J. Mason Brewer

Old friend of my family down in Texas. A few other notes are below.

-Wilson Gray

> Chicago: Quadrangle Books
> 1968
>
> Pg. 189 (Slave Seculars and Work Songs):
> _I Went to Atlanta_
>
> I Went to Atlanta
> Never been dere a-fo'
> White folks eat de apple
> Nigger wait fo' co'
>
> (Other verses are "White folks sleep on feather bed" and "White folks
> wear de fancy suit" and "White folks sit in Lawd's place"--ed.)
>
> Pg. 304 (Cold Weather Signs): If turkeys roost high in a tree, it's a
> sign of cold weather. You will hear the old folks say, "Look out,
> children. Hawkins is coming."
>
> Pg. 323 (Creole Proverbs):
> Great to speak, little to do.
> One goes everywhere with fine clothes.
> Ox who comes first always drinks clear water.
> Pg. 324:
> That is not the baptism of a doll. (No laughing matter.)
> When the tree falls the goat climbs it.
> The best swimmer is often drowned.
> When one is very hungry one does not peel the sweet potato.
> His tongue knows no Sunday.
> I keep nothing hidden in the sideboard. (I keep nothing back.)
> Set your type before you go and then read it. (Have on your tongue
> what you are going to say.)
>
> Pg. 338 ("Dirty Dozens" Rhymes):
> Yo' mama's in de kitchen; yo' papa's in jail;
> Yo' sister's round de corner, hollerin' "Hot stuff for sale."

Clearly, the last line above has been bowdlerized.

How's yo' mama?
She[my mama]'s a sco'. How's yo' 'ho'?

Fucked yo' mama on a red-hot stove
Baby come out sellln' Post* 'n' Globe.* *Local newspapers in St. Louis.

>
> Pg. 339 (Street Cries):
> I sell to the rich,
> I sell to the po';
> I'm gonna sell the lady
> Standin' in that do'.
>
> I got water with the melon, red to the rind!
> If you don't believe it just pull down your blind.
> You eat the watermelon and preee-serve the rind!
>
> Pg. 340:
> We sell it to the rich, we sell it to the poor,
> We give it to the sweet brownskin, peepin' out the door.
> _Tout chaud, Madame, tout chaud!_
> Git 'em while they're hot. Hot _calas_!
>
> The Waffle Man is a fine old man.
> He washes his face in a frying-pan.
> He makes his waffles with his hand.
> Everybody loved the waffle man.
>
> Char-coal! Char-coal!
> My horse is white, my face is black.
> I sell my charcoal, two-bits a sack--
> Char-coal! Char-coal!
>
> Pg. 342:
> Porgy walk; Porgy talk,
> Porgy eat wid a knife an' fork;
> Porgy-e-e-e-!
>
> Vanilla, chocolate, peach cream
> Dat surely freezed by de stream.
> It was made in de shade, an' is sold in de sun.
> If you ain't got a nickel, you can't get none.
>
> Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
> The same old rag man comin' this a-way.
>
> Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.

swimp

Shreveport (Louisiana) is often pronounced "Sweepo" in the local BE.
(In Texas, we say "Sreepote."

> Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
> Raw, raw, raw.
>
> Pg. 343 (Jeering and Taunting Rhymes):
> A bushel o' wheat, a bushel o' san',
> Ah'd rather be a nigger than a po' white man.
>
> You bowlegged, lazy,
> An' almo' half crazy.
>
> Pg. 367 (Autograph Album Rhymes):
> You can kiss beneath a grapevine, you can kiss beneath the rose,
> But the best place I know of is to kiss beneath the nose.
>
> Pg. 368:
> Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
> If you don't love nobody, keep it to yourself.
>
> Up the hickory, an' down the pine;
> Good-looking boys is hard to find.
>
> Sugar is sweet, an' coffee is strong;
> Write me a letter, and don't be long.
>
> It takes a rocking chair to rock,
> A rubber ball to roll,
> A tall, skinny papa
> To satisfy my soul.

Football cheer used by Sumner High School in St. Louis:

It takes a rocking chair to rock
It takes a football to roll
it takes a team like Sumner
To groove my soul
Oh, yes, yes, yes
Oh, yes, yes, yes

>
> Orange is a city, Lemon is a state;
> I wrote you a letter, but I forgot de date.
>
> Pg. 369:
> My papa is a butcher,
> My mama cuts de meat.
> Ah'm de little weiner-wish
> Dat runs around destreet.
>
> If the ocean was milk, and the bottom was cream,
> I'd dive for you like a submarine.
>
> Cream cheese, cream cheese floatin' in the air,
> That bald-headed man ain't got no hair.
>
> Pg. 373 (Ring-Game Songs):
> Ooka dooka soda cracker,
> Does your father chew tobacco?
> Yes, my father chews tobacco.
> Ooka dooka soda cracker.

I know only the "Acka backa soda cracker" version

>
>
> Copy cat, copy cat, sittin' on duh fence,
> Trying' tuh make a dollar out o' fifteen cents.
>
>
> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
>    Trenton Times  Monday, October 17, 1904 Trenton, New Jersey
> ...of whioti starts off with "ANY RAGS, ANY BONES, ANY bottles today."
> Of course.....Fred Barlow, asked, "Have you ANY rags today''" H
> happened that Just..
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 13 00:47:27 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:47:27 -0500
Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
In-Reply-To: <E1Czs0f-0007cF-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.194727.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 12, 2005, at 2:47 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      African American Folklore (2002)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Even "I must develop my bust" is here!...ProQuest is down right now,
> so I'll search these with Newspaperarchive.

   "I must develop my bust"?!!! Well, after a half-century of
desegregation and contamination, what can one expect?

   More random stuff below.

   -Wilson Gray

>
>
> FROM MY PEOPLE:
> 400 YEARS OF AFICAN AMERICAN FOLKLORE
> edited by Caryl Cumber Dance
> New York: W. W. Norton
> 2002
>
> Pg. 470 (Aphorisms and Other Proverbial Sayings):
> God don't like ugly.
> Hard head, soft behind.
>
> Pg. 471:
> You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.--Medgar Evans.
>
> Pg. 480:
> _I'll Eat Hen I'm Hungry_
> From Thomas W. Talley, _Negro Folk Rhymes_
>
> I'll eat when I'se hungry,
> An' I'll rink when I'se dry;
> An' if de whitefolks don't kill me,
> I'll live till I die.
>
> In my liddle log cabin,
> Ever since I've been born;
> Dere hain't been no nothin'
> 'Cept dat hard salt parch corn.
> Pg. 481:
> But I knows what's a henhouse,
> An' de tucky he charve;
> An' if old Mosser don't kill me,
> I cain't never starve.
>
> _Aught's a Aughts_
> Traditional
>
> An aught's a aught and a figger's a figger;
> All for the white folks and none for the nigger.
>
> Pg. 509:
> _Hambone, Hambone_
> This traditional clapping game may be played with a partner or one
> indiv,; slap his thigh as he recites. Additional lines may be
> improvised.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, where you been?
> Round the world and back again.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, what'd you do?
> I got a train and I fairly flew.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, where'd you stay?
> I met a pretty girl and I couldn't get away.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, where'd you go?
> I hopped up to Miss Lucy's door.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, what's you see?
> I asked Miss Lucy to marry me.
>
> Pg. 511:
> _We Must, We Must, We Must_
> From Daryl Cumber Dance, _Honey, Hush!_
> WHen I recorded this verse on May 21, 1995, the singer told me she
> learned it in gym class in the 1950s, but as she sang a younger woman
> joined her, suggesting that it has passed on to the next generation.
>
> We must, we must, we must,
> We must develop our bust.
>
> We must, we must, we must,
> We must develop our bust.
>
> The bigger the better,
> The tighter the sweater.
> The boys are depending on us.
>
> Pg. 526 (Autograph Album Rhymes, from J. Mason Brewer, _Worser Days
> and Better Times_):
> Love all, trust few;
> Learn to paddle your own canoe.
>
> Pg. 527:
> When you marry and get out of shape,
> Get you a girdle for $2.98.
>
> The Mississippi River is deep and wide;
> Catch an alligator to the other side.
>
> Girls are made of sugar and spice;
> Boys aren't made, they just shoot dice.
>
> When you get old and think you're sweet,
> Take off your shoes, and smell your feet.
>
> I wish you luck, I wish you joy,
> I wish you first a baby boy;
> And when his hair beings to curl,
> I wish you next a baby girl;
> And when her hair begins to knot,
> I guess you know it's time to stop.
>
> Ice cream city, candy state,
> This sweet letter don't need no date.
>
> Up on a house top, baking a cake,
> The way I love you is no mistake.
>
> Pg. 528:
> I don't make love by the garden gate,
> For love is blind, but the neighbors ain't.
>
> I've got a cute little shape, and a pretty little figure;
> Stand back, big boys, until I get a little bigger!
>
> I love you once, I love you twice;
> Baby, I love you next to Jesus Christ.

I love you so much that I'd kill a brick for you.

>
> Milk is milk, cheese is cheese;
> What is a kiss without a squeeze?
>
> You're my morning milk, my evening cream,
> My all-day study, and my midnight dream.
>
> Roses on my shoulders, slippers on my feet;
> I'm my mother's baby, don't you think I'm sweet?
>
> Apples on the shelf, peaches in the bowl,
> Can't get a sweetheart to save my soul.
>
> Up on the mountain, five feet high,
> I love you, baby, that ain't no lie.
>
> Pg. 529:
> When you get married and have twenty-four,
> Don't stop there, the Army needs lots more.
>
> When you get married and your husband gets drunk,
> Put him in the trunk and sell him for junk.
>
> When you get married and have twenty-five,
> Daon't call it a family, call it a tribe!
>
> The river is wide, the boat is floating,
> Darling, let's marry and stop this courting!
>
> Ice is ice, rice is rice;
> One day, baby, you'll be my wife.
>
> Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
> Baby, I'm getting tired of sleeping by myself.
>
> When you get married and live in China,
> Rememeber me back in old North Carolina.
>
> Life is sweet, life is swell,
> But when you marry, life is hell.
>
> When you marry and live across the lake,
> Send me a kiss by a rattlesnake.
>
> When you get married and live upstairs,
> DOn't fall down putting on airs.
>
> When you marry don't marry a cook,
> Marry a man with a fat pocketbook.
>
> When you marry and live across the sea,
> Send me a cocoanut C.O.D.
>
> Lions in the cage, monkeys in the zoo,
> Who wants to marry a fool like you?
>
> Pg. 530:
> If you don't like my apples, don't shake my tree;

   You're the cutest thing that I did ever see.
   I really love your peaches. Gonna shake your tree.

   If you don't like my peaches, don't you shake my tree.

> I ain't after your man, he's after me.
>
> When you get married and live out west,
> I'll send your mail by the Jigger express.
>
> Pg. 531 (Rhymes and Brags from Muhammad Ali, formerly Cassius Clay)
> I'm so mean, I make medicine sick.--Neil Leifer and Thomas Hauser,
> _Muhammad Ali Memories_
>
> Pg. 549:
> _More Dozens_
> Because the dozens is such an obscene exchange, no attempt is made to
> reproduce a game here. Rather I present some carefully chosen standard
> lines from the game.
>
> Yo' mama's like a bag of chips. She free to lay.
> Yo' mama's so dumb she tripped over a cordless phone.
> Yo' mama's so stupid it takes her two hours to watch _60 Minutes_.
> Yo' mama's so dumb she thought she could send a voice mail by
> screaming into a envelope.
> Yo' mama's so bald she gets brainwashed when she takes a shower.
>
> Pg. 550:
> Yo' mama's in the kitchen; yo' daddy's in jail;
> yo' sister on de corner offering it for sale.
>
> _Insults_
>
> Happy birthday to you,
> You belong in a zoo.
> You look like a monkey,
> And smell like one too!
>
> My name is Ran,
> I work in the sand;
> I'd rather be a nigger
> Than a poor White man.
>
> White folks think they fine,
> But their raggedy drawers stink just like mine.
>
> He is so ugly he has to _sneak_ up on a mirror.

    He's two shades darker than Bell's telephone. (clearly older than
"black is beautiful" and the break-up of Ma Bell.)

    He's of Indian descent: Choctaw. The lightest [sc. shade of skin in
his family] is chocolate; the darkest is tar.

    He's so ugly that, when he cries, the tears roll down the back of
his head.

    He's so ugly that it looks like he's been in an ax fight and
everybody had an ax but him.

>
> Pg. 551:
> At least my mama ain't no doorknob,
> Everybody get a turn.
>
> Least my mama ain't no railroad track,
> Lay out all over the country.
>
> _Retorts_
>
> Tell the truth, snaggle tooth.
> What you mean, jelly bean?

   See what I mean, jelly bean?
   You heard what I said, nappy head.
   Step out on the patio, daddy-o.
   Make like Ezzard and hit the desert.
>
> Pg. 552:
> See you later, Alligator.
> After while, Crocodile.
>
> I dig all jive.
> That's the reason I stay alive.
>
> Your eyes may shine, your teeth may grit,
> But none of this food will you git.

    Baby, I'm 500% more man.
    I lay more pipe than a plumber can.

    After I take a leak, I don't shake it off.
    I take my left foot and kick it off.

    She got mo' ass than a toilet seat. (Said in response to the
previous observation) Better mo' ass than no ass.

>
>
> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
>    Charleroi Mail  Friday, December 01, 1950 Charleroi, Pennsylvania
> ...Wilson in v.luch eyes MAY YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. Hut none of my money
> Will you.....sides arc still alking indicates there MAY be scTine ope
> left. When Girl Portia..
>
>    Daily Register  Saturday, December 23, 1950 Harrisburg, Illinois
> ...her: "YOUR eyes MAY shine. YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. But none of my
> money Will you.....a Merry a New Year Holland's HOLIDAY MAY YOUR
> Holiday Cheer go on and on REES..
>
>
>    Edwardsville Intelligencer  Wednesday, July 08, 1964 Edwardsville,
> Illinois
> ...you DON'T want MY peaches, DON'T SHAKE MY TREE. When you saw a
> red-haired girl.....Neutral IS A Nice GearBut DON'T You Have Any
> GOLDWATER--ATRAGEDY..
>
>
>    Lancaster Eagle Gazette  Thursday, July 18, 1974 Lancaster, Ohio
> ...a brick. I'm so mean I MAKE MEDICINE SICK. The occasion for
> Ali's.....now than ever before which could MAKE up for some parts .of
> my game that..
>
>
>    Mountain Democrat  Friday, February 17, 1989 Placerville, California
> ...I wIsh YOU luck, I wIsh YOU JOY, "I wIsh YOU fIrst a BABY BOY. "AND
> when hIs.....haIr begIns to curl, I wIsh YOU then a BABY gIrl. AND
> when her..
>
>
>
>    Post Standard  Friday, August 23, 1991 Syracuse, New York
> ...comment on that situation and I 'GOD DOESN'T LIKE UGLY. He'll
> handle the.....coming. He is such a strong Peters DOESN'T have to be
> con- vinced of Seals..
>
>    Post Standard  Sunday, March 19, 2000 Syracuse, New York
> ...to the public. For more 435-2155. 'GOD DON'T LIKE UGLY' An
> inspirational gospel.....musi- DON'T LIKE comes to the Landmark 362
> S..
>


From write at SCN.ORG  Sun Feb 13 01:58:07 2005
From: write at SCN.ORG (Jan Kammert)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:58:07 -0800
Subject: spirituals
In-Reply-To: <fc75953e06df876d74f2a94099672e5c@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.175807.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember a discussion about spirituals on this list several weeks ago.

I teach 8th grade, and one of my students is researching spirituals as
a form of communication for a paper in my class.  I'm looking for primary
sources (preferably on the Internet) that he can read for more
information.

If you have thoughts about where he can look, please let me know.
Thank you,
Jan


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb 13 02:40:11 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:40:11 -0500
Subject: Whisky dry/Heaven die (1874),
 Sardines/Herrings: Sweet Chariot; and more
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.214011.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PACKED LIKE SARDINES/HERRINGS

I discussed "packed like sardines/herrings" here in October 1999. No one remembers? Nobody at all? Nobody looks in the ADS-L archives? Here it is again:


     Why sardines?
     In a previous posting, I wrote that people on the Lexington Avenue
subway line were "packed like sardines."
     This is from the BARNHART DICTIONARY OF ETYMOLOGY (Amazon's "Eyes"
recently announced a new book called the CHAMBERS DICTIONARY OF ETYMOLOGY,
but it's BARNHART with a different name):

_sardine_ (...)--v. Informal. to pack closely, crowd, cram.  1895, American
English, from the noun, as used in the phrase _packed like sardines_ (1911).

    Christine Ammer's AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF IDIOMS has "late 1800s"
for _packed in like sardines_.
    The Making of America database has:

March 1855, DEBOW'S REVIEW, pg. 300--...made them lie down in each other's
laps, like _sardines_ in a can, and in this way obtained space for the entire
cargo.  (The article is "The African Slave Trade," and this quotation comes
from "Capt. Canot, Twenty Years of an African Slaver," perhaps referring to
1826--ed.)
March 1869, OVERLAND MONTHLY AND OUT WEST MAGAZINE, pg. 273--...packed like
herrings in a cask, or sardines in a box, we...

    Herrings!  Ah, so sardines have some packing competition!

March 1846, LADIES' REPOSITORY, pg. 67--...packed, close as a box of
herrings...
March 1851, SOUTHERN LITERARY MESSENGER, pg. 180--...the guests have as much
elbow room as the herrings in a box...
July 1854, SOUTHERN LITERARY MESSENGER, pg. 430--...packed together like
herrings in a barrel...
September 1870, LADIES' REPOSITORY, pg. 231--...eight babies were packed
around the walls like herrings in a box.
1871, WESTWARD BY RAIL by W. Fraser Rae, pg. 294--The common saying about
being packed as closely as herrings in a barrel...

    It appears from the above that the phrase began as herrings in a
barrel/box/cask, and then became sardines in a can.  This should be recorded.
    The phrase is now "packed as tightly as my travel luggage on a return
trip."


(EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS)
Boston Commercial Gazette, 1819-08-23, col. 52, isss. 20, pg. 2:
...they are literally packed like herrings in a cask; they each of them paid in advance 150 florins; there will probably be a psetilence on board the ship before it reaches Flushing.

--------------------------------------------------------------
PROQUEST--Still down. Still no new material for 2005.


SPATCHCOCK QUERY--I don't have time for a detailed answer. My food books are a mess. I do parking tickets all day. My research and writing income this year is $0.


DARYL CUMBER DANCE, MEDGAR EVERS--That should be "Daryl Cumber Dance, not "Caryl," for the author's name...I knew it was Medgar Evers. It looked like Medgar Evans was written in the book so I typed that; it was late and I had more typing. There's a Medgar Evers school here in NYC.


BIG PICTURE--I've posted here several times explaning "the big picture." Picture shows (movies) helped the phrase. I wouldn't say that "big picture" is Victorian.


HAWKINS--Gerald Cohen has requested "Hawkins" from the Peter Tamony file, so that should be coming in a little while. I checked out NEGRO FOLK-TALES (1938) by Helen Whiting and WITH AESOP ALONG THE BLACK BORDER (1924) by Ambrose Gonzales. Both have stories about "wind," but no Hawkins.


WHISKY DRY/HEAVEN DIE--I checked Acessible archives in the NYPL, and it's the same thing but earlier. From the CHRISITAN RECORDER (Philadelphia, PA), 13 August 1874:

The following is said to be a popular song in Duluth:
"Beefsteak when I'm hungry,
Whiskey when I'm dry,
Greenbacks when I'm hard up,
And Heaven when I die."


ALL GOOD DOGS GO TO HEAVEN--I was looking for the last line of the above when this came up. Does Fred Shapiro have a very old cit for this? From the CHRISTIAN RECORDER, 20 February 1873:

"Tom, will kittens and puppies go to heaven when they die, if they  are real good?"
"Ho! they haven't got any soul?"
"Yes, they have. A soul is what looks out of your eyes, and you just look in their eyes..."

(GOOGLE)
[PDF] the Book Mailer
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... fish. The ancient Teutons had a saying: "All good dogs go to heaven." They
had better. For me it won't be heaven without my dogs. ...
www.thebookmailer.com/Order/BMarchive/02SPBM.pdf - Similar pages


SWING LOW, SWEET CHARIOT--I'll check the OXFORD BOOK OF SPIRITUALS (2002) in a minute. What's the origin of this traditional song? "Swing low" was supposed to be a phrase used on the underground railraod. I don't have my HDAS with the letter "S." From the CHRISTIAN RECORDER, 21 January 1875:

A colored gentleman from Haddington, N. J., John Stephenson by name, presided at the organ and led the singing "John Brown," "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot," and other kindred pieces were rendered with great gusto.

--------------------------------------------------------------
COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC:

WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON WEDNESDAY?--Astor Place Subway Station. Cheddar Cheese "Combos." Delicious.

WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON THURSDAY?--Ghenet, Mulberry Street and East Houston Street (right behind the Puck Building). It's a fine Ethiopian restaurant with a nice-looking menu. A little more expensive than Queen of Sheba, but about the same.

WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON FRIDAY?--I wanted to go to the Mermaid Inn on Second Avenue for fish, but the place was crowded. I went to Secrets of Thai Cooking, First Avenue and Fifth Street. No special secrets here. I asked my Thai server her name. She said it was "Apple."

WHERE DID BARRY POPIK _NOT_ EAT ON SATURDAY?--City Bakery, 3 West 18th Street. They're having a hot chocolate festival. It looked thicker than the Choco Bon Loco that I didn't have at Au Bon Pain. I'm still trying to work off the Frrrrozen Hot Chocolate from Serendipity. This NYC "Hot Chocolate Crawl" is a bad idea.

WHERE DID BARRY POPIK _NOT_ EAT ON SATURDAY?--Rickshaw Dumpling Bar, 61 West 23rd Street. This was featured two days ago in "Daily Candy," and I always trust everything in Daily Candy. It was closed. Someone there said that Daily Candy screwed up. I got a menu and--it's dumpling folks. Dumplings. Daily Candy and others make it seem like these new restaurants re-invent the wheel.

WHERE DID BARRY POPIK _NOT_ EAT ON SATURDAY?--BLT Fish, 21 West 17th Street. This place has been getting terrific write-ups. I was told it's a one hour-plus wait for a table. I could eat at the bar, I was told, but you couldn't get bar space, either.

WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON SATURDAY?--Caffe Reggio (www.cafereggio.com), 119 MacDougal Street. Awright, so I finally had their "original cappuccino." The place has been there since 1927.

WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON SATURDAY?--Ama, 48 MacDougal Street. It's been open for three days, and it was featured in a nice article, with a picture of the owner, in Friday's METRO. It's owned by the beautiful Donatella Arpaia (http://www.dbdrestaurant.com, http://www.bellinirestaurantnyc.com). The place is below Houston, on a spot on MacDougal that doesn't get the NYU foot traffic of the other Italian restaurants above Houston. Donatella was there and she said the place was Southern Italian cuisine. She said that METRO had misspelled her name. She said that she was a lawyer for "seven months." The place may or may not make it, but I'm smitten by the owner.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 13 03:09:39 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:09:39 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <E1D05x5-0001zG-00@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.220939.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 12, 2005, at 5:41 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: American Negro Folklore (1968)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Jawbone walk, jawbone talk,
> Jawbone eat with a knife and fork.
>           ---Old Minstrel Song
>
>
> Mama's in the kitchen,
> Papa's in jail.
> Sister's on the corner,
> Yellin' "Pussy for sale!"
>
>            ---From a song called "Alley Boogie,"  sung on the march by
> U.S. Marines in New Zealand in WW II.
>
> Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man,
> Washed his face in a fryin' pan,
> Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
> Died with the toothache in his heel.
>
>           ---Old Minstrel Song, "Old Dan Tucker"
>
> JL

Is this the same song that has the verse (or chorus?):

Get out of the way of old Dan Tucker
Too late to get his supper
Supper's over and dinner's cookin'
Old Dan Tucker just standin' there lookin'

Wilson, just wondering

>
>
> Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Hawkins," "made in de shade, sold in de sun," and others of interest
> here.
>
>
> AMERICAN NEGRO FOLKLORE
> by J. Mason Brewer
> Chicago: Quadrangle Books
> 1968
>
> Pg. 189 (Slave Seculars and Work Songs):
> _I Went to Atlanta_
>
> I Went to Atlanta
> Never been dere a-fo'
> White folks eat de apple
> Nigger wait fo' co'
>
> (Other verses are "White folks sleep on feather bed" and "White folks
> wear de fancy suit" and "White folks sit in Lawd's place"--ed.)
>
> Pg. 304 (Cold Weather Signs): If turkeys roost high in a tree, it's a
> sign of cold weather. You will hear the old folks say, "Look out,
> children. Hawkins is coming."
>
> Pg. 323 (Creole Proverbs):
> Great to speak, little to do.
> One goes everywhere with fine clothes.
> Ox who comes first always drinks clear water.
> Pg. 324:
> That is not the baptism of a doll. (No laughing matter.)
> When the tree falls the goat climbs it.
> The best swimmer is often drowned.
> When one is very hungry one does not peel the sweet potato.
> His tongue knows no Sunday.
> I keep nothing hidden in the sideboard. (I keep nothing back.)
> Set your type before you go and then read it. (Have on your tongue
> what you are going to say.)
>
> Pg. 338 ("Dirty Dozens" Rhymes):
> Yo' mama's in de kitchen; yo' papa's in jail;
> Yo' sister's round de corner, hollerin' "Hot stuff for sale."
>
> Pg. 339 (Street Cries):
> I sell to the rich,
> I sell to the po';
> I'm gonna sell the lady
> Standin' in that do'.
>
> I got water with the melon, red to the rind!
> If you don't believe it just pull down your blind.
> You eat the watermelon and preee-serve the rind!
>
> Pg. 340:
> We sell it to the rich, we sell it to the poor,
> We give it to the sweet brownskin, peepin' out the door.
> _Tout chaud, Madame, tout chaud!_
> Git 'em while they're hot. Hot _calas_!
>
> The Waffle Man is a fine old man.
> He washes his face in a frying-pan.
> He makes his waffles with his hand.
> Everybody loved the waffle man.
>
> Char-coal! Char-coal!
> My horse is white, my face is black.
> I sell my charcoal, two-bits a sack--
> Char-coal! Char-coal!
>
> Pg. 342:
> Porgy walk; Porgy talk,
> Porgy eat wid a knife an' fork;
> Porgy-e-e-e-!
>
> Vanilla, chocolate, peach cream
> Dat surely freezed by de stream.
> It was made in de shade, an' is sold in de sun.
> If you ain't got a nickel, you can't get none.
>
> Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
> The same old rag man comin' this a-way.
>
> Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.
> Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
> Raw, raw, raw.
>
> Pg. 343 (Jeering and Taunting Rhymes):
> A bushel o' wheat, a bushel o' san',
> Ah'd rather be a nigger than a po' white man.
>
> You bowlegged, lazy,
> An' almo' half crazy.
>
> Pg. 367 (Autograph Album Rhymes):
> You can kiss beneath a grapevine, you can kiss beneath the rose,
> But the best place I know of is to kiss beneath the nose.
>
> Pg. 368:
> Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
> If you don't love nobody, keep it to yourself.
>
> Up the hickory, an' down the pine;
> Good-looking boys is hard to find.
>
> Sugar is sweet, an' coffee is strong;
> Write me a letter, and don't be long.
>
> It takes a rocking chair to rock,
> A rubber ball to roll,
> A tall, skinny papa
> To satisfy my soul.
>
> Orange is a city, Lemon is a state;
> I wrote you a letter, but I forgot de date.
>
> Pg. 369:
> My papa is a butcher,
> My mama cuts de meat.
> Ah'm de little weiner-wish
> Dat runs around destreet.
>
> If the ocean was milk, and the bottom was cream,
> I'd dive for you like a submarine.
>
> Cream cheese, cream cheese floatin' in the air,
> That bald-headed man ain't got no hair.
>
> Pg. 373 (Ring-Game Songs):
> Ooka dooka soda cracker,
> Does your father chew tobacco?
> Yes, my father chews tobacco.
> Ooka dooka soda cracker.
>
>
> Copy cat, copy cat, sittin' on duh fence,
> Trying' tuh make a dollar out o' fifteen cents.
>
>
> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
> Trenton Times Monday, October 17, 1904 Trenton, New Jersey
> ...of whioti starts off with "ANY RAGS, ANY BONES, ANY bottles today."
> Of course.....Fred Barlow, asked, "Have you ANY rags today''" H
> happened that Just..
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb 13 03:27:06 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:27:06 -0500
Subject: spirituals
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.222706.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE OXFORD BOOK OF SPIRITUALS
edited by Moses Hogan
Oxford University Press 2002

I'm looking at it right now. There is NO historical information on the spirituals. I don't mean a little. I mean NO INFORMATION. There a two-page preface "A Note on Dialect" by James Weldon Johnson, but that's it. How could Oxford publish a book like this?

--------------------------------------------------------------
AMERICAN NEGRO SONGS:
A COMPREHENSIVE COLLECTION OF 250 FOLK SONGS, RELIGIOUS AND SECULAR, WITH A FOREWORD BY JOHN W. WORK
New York: Howell, Soskin & Co.
1940

No historical information again!

--------------------------------------------------------------
THE BOOK OF AMERICAN NEGRO SPIRITUALS
edited with an introduction by James Weldon Johnson
Musical arrangements by J. Rosamond Johnson
Additional numbers by Lawrence Brown
1925 and 1926, two volumes, Viking Press
1969, one volume, Da Capo Press

Again, no historical information!


NYPL--The Schomburg Library was supposed to digitize most all of its collection before about 1930. That hasn't been done. There is a digital database called "The Africa-American Migration Experience." There is also a Digital Schomburg (http://www.nypl.org/research/sc/digital.html). "Swing low" produced no hits!


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 13 03:31:08 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:31:08 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Social Science"
In-Reply-To: <9831d780c2957c593562cc31fd0f1c45@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.223108.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

social science (OED 1811)

1796 Thelwall, John. Rights of nature, against the usurpations of
establishments. A series of letters to the people, in reply to the false
principles of Burke. 22 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  This
faint copyist, like his eccentric master, is an advocate for the
perpetuity of the old Gothic Customary; and, with all the admitted
improvements of social science, would fatter us to the institutions which,
twelve or fifteen hundred years ago, were fabricated, by ignorant savages,
in "the woods of Germany."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 13 03:39:20 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:39:20 -0500
Subject: Further Antedating of "Social Science"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502122228360.16588-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.223920.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

social science (OED 1811)

1785 John Pinkerton _Letters of Literature_ 357 (Eighteenth Century
Collections Online)  IN Moral Philosophy and Social Science, these greatest
divisions of this grand part of knowlege, few or no advances have been
made.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Sun Feb 13 05:44:26 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:44:26 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=22Target=22?= as a French word?
In-Reply-To: <9d.574314ec.2f1c751a@cs.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.004426.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I doubt that WalMart will ever get a Frenchified pronunciation.  Target and
Penney's are wannabe stores, catering to the lower middle to midmiddle
folks, like a lot of us who can't afford Bon Marche or Saks or other upper
scale stores.  French is fashion, really good stuff.  Hence, the sardonic
pronunciation of the wannabe stores.

Jim Stalker, that's Stalcaire! as in Bucket, aka Bouquet.



Paul Zebe writes:

> Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) pronounced as a French word?
> That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the Nashville area within the
> past 10 years.  Could it be a joke played on a New England schoolmarm by her
> Southern students?
>
> Curiously,
> Paul Zebe
>



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Sun Feb 13 06:51:31 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:51:31 -0600
Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.005131.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've been doing some biographical research on the science fiction author Robert A. Heinlein.

The Evers quote below reminds me of his quote "You can't enslave a free man.  The most you can do is kill him."


Pg. 471:
You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.--Medgar Evans.


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Sun Feb 13 06:54:02 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:54:02 -0600
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.005402.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Shrimpers from the Gulf region seem to pronounce "shrimp" as "srimp".
IIR, even the movie "Forrest Gump" got this right.

>> Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
>> The same old rag man comin' this a-way.
>>
>> Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.
>
>swimp
>
>Shreveport (Louisiana) is often pronounced "Sweepo" in the local BE.
>(In Texas, we say "Sreepote."
>
>> Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
>> Raw, raw, raw.
>>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb 13 06:55:19 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 01:55:19 EST
Subject: TizzleTalk.com
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.015519.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A pop-up (thank goodness my AOL 9.0 blocks these things and works like a
charm) came up for TizzleTalk.com. it can translate your speech into American
different dialects, such as:
...
Ebonics
Redneck
Engrish
Dubya
Jessica
Arnold

ORIGINAL TEXT: now wait just one minute, i refuse to speak to  him

EBONICS: now wait just one minizzle, dog, I's refuse ta speak ta dat  dude
...
...
Sounds like great racist fun for the whole  family!


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb 13 08:39:31 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 03:39:31 EST
Subject: "A nought;s a naught, and a figger's a figger" (1911)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.033931.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

O.T.: That last post should have read "different American dialects," not
"American different dialects." I was in a tizzle.
...
...
"Documenting the American South" is a fine database from the University of
North Carolina-Chapel Hill. But how come it doesn't have "acka backa soda
cracker," I ask you?
...
A check for "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" reveals one collection of  songs...The
database did have this one:
...
...
_http://docsouth.unc.edu/pickens/pickens.html_
(http://docsouth.unc.edu/pickens/pickens.html)
...
THE HEIR OF SLAVES:
AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY
by William Pickens
Boston: The Pilgrim Press
1911

Page 26
than on the day of our arrival. And who could deny it? The white man did all
the reckoning. The negro did all the work. The negro can be robbed of
everything  but his humor, and in the bottom lands of Arkansas he has made a rhyme.
He says  that on settlement day the landowner sits down, takes up his pen and
reckons  thus:
"A  nought's a nought, and a figger's a figger -
All  fer de white man - none fer de nigger!"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb 13 10:00:19 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:00:19 EST
Subject: "Re-inventing the wheel" (1965)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.050019.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

REINVENT THE WHEEL--233,000 Google hits, 48,200 Google Groups hits
RE-INVENT THE WHEEL--109,000 Google hits, 26,100 Google Groups hits
...
...
ProQuest's back! And it looks like the Chicago Tribune is now at 1969, so
they've added one whole year!
...
"Reinvent the wheel" seems old-hat now, but it doesn't appear to date
further back than the 1960s. OED added this entry in September 2003, so we
shouldn't be able to beat it using the ProQuest New York Times that was out  then.
ProQuest can get a little tricky; "re-invent" and "re-inventing" have  different
hits.
...
...
(OED)
DRAFT ADDITIONS SEPTEMBER 2003

<NOBvent, v.
to reinvent the wheel: to recreate something  that already exists, esp. at
the expense of unnecessary time and effort; to  repeat effort needlessly.

1967 Times 27 Jan. 9/3 (advt.) We are not out to do a technological
equivalent of re-inventing  the wheel.
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_Other  16 -- No Title_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=106993425&SrchMode=1&sid=11&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108287287&
clientId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current  file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 13, 1965. p. X20 (1
page)
...
Thursday
10:30 (13) SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING TV JOURNAL "How to Succeed Without
Re-Inventing the Wheel"
...
...
_Television_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=97211245&SrchMode=1&sid=12&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108287522&clientId=658
82)
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 17,  1965. p. 67 (1
page)
...
10:30 (13) SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING TV JOURNAL: "How to Succeed Without
Re-Inventing the Wheel"
...


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 13 10:44:27 2005
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:44:27 -0800
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <9831d780c2957c593562cc31fd0f1c45@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.024427.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I learned it as "Old Dan Tucker was a _mean_ old man."


> Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man,
> Washed his face in a fryin' pan,
> Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
> Died with the toothache in his heel.
>
 And the chorus as, "Get out the way, old Dan Tucker/You're too late to stay for supper/Supper's over, breakfast cookin'/Old Dan Tucker stand there lookin'.

Margaret L.


Get out of the way of old Dan Tucker
Too late to get his supper
Supper's over and dinner's cookin'
Old Dan Tucker just standin' there lookin'

Wilson, just wondering





---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo!


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb 13 12:09:22 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:09:22 EST
Subject: "You can kill a man, but not an idea" (1949) and more
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.070922.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here are some of the black folklore terms against ProQuest...The  Chicago
Tribune is at 1959, not 1969.
...
...
...
...
_AUTO  WORKERS ASK CIO: OUST LEFT-WINGERS; Chicagoan Loses Fight on
Resolution _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=489446162&SrchMode=1&sid=24&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108289671&clientId=65882)
GEORGE HARTMANN. Chicago  Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 12,
1949. p. 6 (1 page)
...
"You can kill a man with a 12 gauge shotgun," he (Walter Reuther--ed.)  said,
"but you can't kill an idea. The UAW isn't a personal thing. It is an
ideal--it will carry on. We are more determined than ever that the fight of our
union will carry on."
...
...
...
_KING'S  BRAVEST HERE; Honorable Artillery of London Seeing the Capital.
ESCORTED UP THE  AVENUE English Organization and Their Boston Kindred Met by Troop
of Regulars  and the Minutemen of This City -- Earl Denbigh at Head of His
Command --  Reception at White House To-day. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=259551062&SrchMode=1&sid=52&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNam
e=HNP&TS=1108291528&clientId=65882)
The Washington  Post. Oct 10, 1903. p. 2 (1 page)
...
The Englishmen have already got a war cry. The words are set to the tune of
a comic opera air, and when the band strikes on the air, the whole company
sung  "Any rags, any bones, any bottles: the same old story in the same old way."
They  sang this with evident enjoyment over and over again.
...
...
_"Any  Rags, Bones, Bottles, Today?"; It Is Hardly Possible That the Cry of
the Ragman  Should Suggest to the Layman the Systematized Commerce in Trash or
the  Scientific Utilization of Garbage Now Practiced by the Capital -- But
That Is  What We Have Come to -- Read the Facts and Be Glad of It. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=247275782&SrchMode=1&sid=52&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&V
Type=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108291528&clientId=65882)
By DAVID RANKIN BARBEE. The Washington  Post. Aug 11, 1929. p. SM6 (2 pages)
...
...
_"ANY  RAGS, ANY BONES, ANY BOTTLES TODAY?"_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=5&did=399212251&SrchMode=1&sid=52&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNa
me=HNP&TS=1108291528&clientId=65882)
Los Angeles Times  (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 27, 1938. p.
11 (1 page)
...
...
...
_A  LINE O' TYPE OR TWO_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=359416212&SrchMode=1&sid=54&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108292020
&clientId=65882)
Chicago Daily Tribune  (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 5, 1921. p. 8 (1 page)
...
A FEW heart-throbs from the autograph album:

I wish you luck, I wish you joy,
I wish you then a baby boy,
And when his hair begins to curl,
I wish you then a baby girl.
JULIA RAYMER.
...
...
...
_THE  MODERN ALMANAC_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=509165402&SrchMode=1&sid=57&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108292380&cl
ientId=65882)
Herb Daniels. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 27,
1956. p. H4 (1 page)
...
Autograph books, you'll be delighted to know, endureth forever with small
fry. WIth school's impending end, there suddenly is born a bittersweet knowledge
 of time's flight and a compulsion to capture the happy _now_.

Then autograph books appear as suddenly as a hatch of fluttering
butterflies. Now, as in our day, it is not enough to sign the book. You pick a  favorite
color page, write a verse of comment, _then_ sign.

Remember: _Roses are red,/ Violets are blue,/ A face like yours' Belongs in
a zoo_!? Or: _Roses are red,/ Tar is black,/ If I had a knife/ It would be in
your back_!

Advice may accompany autographs: _Don't make love on the garden gate. /  Love
is blind, but the neighbors ain't_!
...
...
...
_It's  Slangy, Slurry and Fast; SIDEWALKS OF AMERICA: Folklore, Legends,
Sagas,  Traditions, Customs, Songs, Stories and Sayings of City Folk. Edited by B.
A.  Botkin. Illustrated with drawings. 605 pp. Indianapolis and New York: The
 Bobbs-Merrill Company. $5.95. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=96513532&SrchMode=1&sid=64&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110
8293118&clientId=65882)
By HORACE  REYNOLDS. New York Times (1857-Current. Dec 5,  1954. p. BR50 (1
page)
...
When it leaves the open air, it often goes into something sordid and seamy:
the tawny burlesque house, to learn the origin of the strip tease; the
honky-tonk, to hear, "If you don't like my peaches, don't shake my tree"; the
employment houses on Skid Row to overhear a bum talking to his buddy about  hiring
out as a gandy-dancer.
...
...
...
_AMERICA'S  FOLK SONGS_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=96928048&SrchMode=1&sid=93&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108295683&c
lientId=65882)
By ELIE SIEGMEISTER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb
11,  1940. p. 133 (1 page)
...
I've been a moonshiner for seventeen long years,
I've spent all my money on whisky and beers.
...
I'll go to some holler, I'll pick up my still,
I'll make you one gallon for a two-dollar bill.
...
I'll go to some grocery and drink with my friends,
No woman to follow to see what I spends.
...
God bless those pretty women, I wish they were mine;
Their breath smells as sweet as the dew on the vine.
...
I'll eat when I'm hungry and drink when I'm dry,
If moonshine don't kill me, I'll live till I die.
...
God bless those moonshiners. I wish they were mine.
Their breath smells as sweet as the good old moonshine.
...
...
...
_Other  8 -- No Title_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=462914702&SrchMode=1&sid=96&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&V
Type=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108296175&clientId=65882)
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963).  Chicago, Ill.: Feb 12, 1946. p. 16 (1
page)
...
3. "God don't like ugly," is a common remark of Negroes in Charleston, S.
C., to indicate that God dislikes
Homeliness  Wickedness  Dirt  Liquor

ANSWERS
3. Wickedness.


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sun Feb 13 19:55:09 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:55:09 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <20050213050055.4A159B24F4@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.145509.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson inquires:
>>>>
> Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man,
> Washed his face in a fryin' pan,
> Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
> Died with the toothache in his heel.
>
>           ---Old Minstrel Song, "Old Dan Tucker"
>
> JL

Is this the same song that has the verse (or chorus?):

Get out of the way of old Dan Tucker
Too late to get his supper
Supper's over and dinner's cookin'
Old Dan Tucker just standin' there lookin'

Wilson, just wondering
<<<<

Yup. (Though I learned it with "breakfast" instead of "dinner".)

"Get out (of) the way..." is the chorus. It has a different tune. I don't
remember any other verses than the one given here.

I've also seen it with the chorus ending:

"Supper's over and the dishes washed,
Nothing left but a piece of squash."

mark by hand


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 13 19:56:33 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:56:33 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <20050213145314.F51145@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.145633.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark A. Mandel wrote:
> Wilson inquires:
>
>>Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man,
>>Washed his face in a fryin' pan,
>>Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
>>Died with the toothache in his heel.
>>
>>          ---Old Minstrel Song, "Old Dan Tucker"
>>
>>JL
>
>
> Is this the same song that has the verse (or chorus?):
>
> Get out of the way of old Dan Tucker
> Too late to get his supper
> Supper's over and dinner's cookin'
> Old Dan Tucker just standin' there lookin'
>
> Wilson, just wondering
> <<<<
>
> Yup. (Though I learned it with "breakfast" instead of "dinner".)

Aha...somebody else for whom "dinner" and "supper" can refer to the same
meal!

Alice Faber


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 13 21:03:20 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:03:20 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <3rjp4a$7kp5ij@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.160320.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you. I was confused by the term, "old minstrel song." When I was
a pre-adolescent, ODT was one of my most favoritest songs, in the
version sung by Burl (sp? In my day, this was quite a popular name
among black males, with many spelling variations, such as "Berl,
"Beryl," "Burrell," etc.) Ives, so I've always thought of it as a
folksong and yes, even back in those pre-TV days, I knew that Ives was
white.

FWIW, I'm reminded that I read somewhere that "Antoine" is currently
the most common name among black professional football players and that
it's spelled over 27 different ways.

-Wilson

On Feb 13, 2005, at 2:55 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: American Negro Folklore (1968)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson inquires:
>>>>>
>> Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man,
>> Washed his face in a fryin' pan,
>> Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
>> Died with the toothache in his heel.
>>
>>           ---Old Minstrel Song, "Old Dan Tucker"
>>
>> JL
>
> Is this the same song that has the verse (or chorus?):
>
> Get out of the way of old Dan Tucker
> Too late to get his supper
> Supper's over and dinner's cookin'
> Old Dan Tucker just standin' there lookin'
>
> Wilson, just wondering
> <<<<
>
> Yup. (Though I learned it with "breakfast" instead of "dinner".)
>
> "Get out (of) the way..." is the chorus. It has a different tune. I
> don't
> remember any other verses than the one given here.
>
> I've also seen it with the chorus ending:
>
> "Supper's over and the dishes washed,
> Nothing left but a piece of squash."
>
> mark by hand
>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Sun Feb 13 21:04:29 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:04:29 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <420FB0F1.2080903@haskins.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.160429.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 02:56 PM 2/13/2005, you wrote:
>Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>>Wilson inquires:
>>
>>>Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man,
>>>Washed his face in a fryin' pan,
>>>Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
>>>Died with the toothache in his heel.
>>>
>>>          ---Old Minstrel Song, "Old Dan Tucker"
>>>
>>>JL
>>
>>
>>Is this the same song that has the verse (or chorus?):
>>
>>Get out of the way of old Dan Tucker
>>Too late to get his supper
>>Supper's over and dinner's cookin'
>>Old Dan Tucker just standin' there lookin'
>>
>>Wilson, just wondering
>><<<<
>>
>>Yup. (Though I learned it with "breakfast" instead of "dinner".)
>
>Aha...somebody else for whom "dinner" and "supper" can refer to the same
>meal!
>
>Alice Faber

Me too--unless, as in my childhood, dinner was the noonday meal, in which
case Dan would have to wait all the way from supper one night until noon
the next day.

But for the prosody (not that that might have mattered to some singers), I
always said (and heard) "He's too late ..." and "... just stands there
lookin'."  He was also mean, not fine.  Toothache also doesn't ring a
bell--bullet, maybe?


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 13 21:15:39 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:15:39 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <E1D0Df5-0004ps-00@mx05.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.161539.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You know, for years I've wondered why it is that, even though it's
spelled correctly, so many people mispronounce the name of Sri Lanka as
"Shree" Lanka instead of as "Sree" Lanka.

-Wilson <just kidding>

On Feb 13, 2005, at 1:54 AM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject:      Re: American Negro Folklore (1968)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Shrimpers from the Gulf region seem to pronounce "shrimp" as "srimp".
> IIR, even the movie "Forrest Gump" got this right.
>
>>> Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
>>> The same old rag man comin' this a-way.
>>>
>>> Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.
>>
>> swimp
>>
>> Shreveport (Louisiana) is often pronounced "Sweepo" in the local BE.
>> (In Texas, we say "Sreepote.")
>>
>>> Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
>>> Raw, raw, raw.
>>>
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 13 21:44:18 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:44:18 -0500
Subject: "Re-inventing the wheel" (1965)
In-Reply-To: <E1D0GYC-0005Ay-00@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.164418.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 13, 2005, at 5:00 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> 1967 Times 27 Jan. 9/3 (advt.) We are not out to do a

> _technological equivalent of re-inventing the wheel_.

Isn't the wheel an example of technology?

-Wilson

> ...
> ...
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
> ...
> _Other  16 -- No Title_
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=0&did=106993425&SrchMode=1&sid=11&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT
> =309&VName=HNP&TS=1108287287&
> clientId=65882)
> New York Times (1857-Current  file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 13, 1965. p.
> X20 (1
> page)
> ...
> Thursday
> 10:30 (13) SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING TV JOURNAL "How to Succeed Without
> Re-Inventing the Wheel"
> ...
> ...
> _Television_
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=1&did=97211245&SrchMode=1&sid=12&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=
> 309&VName=HNP&TS=1108287522&clientId=658
> 82)
> New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 17,  1965. p.
> 67 (1
> page)
> ...
> 10:30 (13) SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING TV JOURNAL: "How to Succeed Without
> Re-Inventing the Wheel"
> ...
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Feb 13 21:50:01 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:50:01 -0600
Subject: railroad slang: "on the cat hop" (right on time)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.155001.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I've been asked by a history professor  about an expression he came across in his research on the railroads: "on the cat hop" (right on time), e.g., "The freight train left on the cat hop."

    I don't have OED or DARE handy, and so maybe "cat hop" appears there.
But in any case I don't find it in HDAS or Casell's Dictionary of Slang.
Would anyone in ads-l be familiar with this term and how it came to mean "right on time"?

Gerald Cohen


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Sun Feb 13 21:50:02 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:50:02 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <b09a8f53c4a4e8d0f47408a46b156ce1@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.165002.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For years I tried hard to say "Sree," until a student from there told me
it's actually "Shree."  So much for trying to be politically correct.

At 04:15 PM 2/13/2005, you wrote:
>You know, for years I've wondered why it is that, even though it's
>spelled correctly, so many people mispronounce the name of Sri Lanka as
>"Shree" Lanka instead of as "Sree" Lanka.
>
>-Wilson <just kidding>
>
>On Feb 13, 2005, at 1:54 AM, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
>>Subject:      Re: American Negro Folklore (1968)
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>Shrimpers from the Gulf region seem to pronounce "shrimp" as "srimp".
>>IIR, even the movie "Forrest Gump" got this right.
>>
>>>>Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
>>>>The same old rag man comin' this a-way.
>>>>
>>>>Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.
>>>
>>>swimp
>>>
>>>Shreveport (Louisiana) is often pronounced "Sweepo" in the local BE.
>>>(In Texas, we say "Sreepote.")
>>>
>>>>Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
>>>>Raw, raw, raw.


From mthom at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 13 23:07:15 2005
From: mthom at RCN.COM (Maggie Thompson)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:07:15 -0500
Subject: children's chants--Rise SAlly
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.180715.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember from my grade-school days (1948-54) a playground game that
featured the chant about "Sally."  The kids formed a circle, "Sally"
crouched in the middle, and the circle kids chanted:

little Sally Ann
Sitting in the sand
Crying, crying,
For a young man.

(the kid playing "Sally" would pretend to cry)

Rise, Sally, rise
Wipe your crying eyes.
Turn to the east and
Turn to the west and
Turn to the one that
You love best.

("Sally" would act this out, pick another kid, who then went into the middle
and it all started over.)

There may have been more to this, but I don't remember it.  I grew up in
Elizabeth, PA, about 15 miles from Pittsburgh, by the way.

Maggie Thompson


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 13 23:30:01 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:30:01 -0800
Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.153001.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"What I mean, jelly-bean!"  NYC white kids, 1959.

"Gettin' more ass than a toilet seat."  In movie The Deer Hunter (1979), cited in HDAS.

"So skinny, when she cries the tears run down her back."  Kingston, NY, white kid, ca1970.

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: African American Folklore (2002)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 12, 2005, at 2:47 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Even "I must develop my bust" is here!...ProQuest is down right now,
> so I'll search these with Newspaperarchive.

"I must develop my bust"?!!! Well, after a half-century of
desegregation and contamination, what can one expect?

More random stuff below.

-Wilson Gray

>
>
> FROM MY PEOPLE:
> 400 YEARS OF AFICAN AMERICAN FOLKLORE
> edited by Caryl Cumber Dance
> New York: W. W. Norton
> 2002
>
> Pg. 470 (Aphorisms and Other Proverbial Sayings):
> God don't like ugly.
> Hard head, soft behind.
>
> Pg. 471:
> You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.--Medgar Evans.
>
> Pg. 480:
> _I'll Eat Hen I'm Hungry_
> From Thomas W. Talley, _Negro Folk Rhymes_
>
> I'll eat when I'se hungry,
> An' I'll rink when I'se dry;
> An' if de whitefolks don't kill me,
> I'll live till I die.
>
> In my liddle log cabin,
> Ever since I've been born;
> Dere hain't been no nothin'
> 'Cept dat hard salt parch corn.
> Pg. 481:
> But I knows what's a henhouse,
> An' de tucky he charve;
> An' if old Mosser don't kill me,
> I cain't never starve.
>
> _Aught's a Aughts_
> Traditional
>
> An aught's a aught and a figger's a figger;
> All for the white folks and none for the nigger.
>
> Pg. 509:
> _Hambone, Hambone_
> This traditional clapping game may be played with a partner or one
> indiv,; slap his thigh as he recites. Additional lines may be
> improvised.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, where you been?
> Round the world and back again.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, what'd you do?
> I got a train and I fairly flew.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, where'd you stay?
> I met a pretty girl and I couldn't get away.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, where'd you go?
> I hopped up to Miss Lucy's door.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, what's you see?
> I asked Miss Lucy to marry me.
>
> Pg. 511:
> _We Must, We Must, We Must_
> From Daryl Cumber Dance, _Honey, Hush!_
> WHen I recorded this verse on May 21, 1995, the singer told me she
> learned it in gym class in the 1950s, but as she sang a younger woman
> joined her, suggesting that it has passed on to the next generation.
>
> We must, we must, we must,
> We must develop our bust.
>
> We must, we must, we must,
> We must develop our bust.
>
> The bigger the better,
> The tighter the sweater.
> The boys are depending on us.
>
> Pg. 526 (Autograph Album Rhymes, from J. Mason Brewer, _Worser Days
> and Better Times_):
> Love all, trust few;
> Learn to paddle your own canoe.
>
> Pg. 527:
> When you marry and get out of shape,
> Get you a girdle for $2.98.
>
> The Mississippi River is deep and wide;
> Catch an alligator to the other side.
>
> Girls are made of sugar and spice;
> Boys aren't made, they just shoot dice.
>
> When you get old and think you're sweet,
> Take off your shoes, and smell your feet.
>
> I wish you luck, I wish you joy,
> I wish you first a baby boy;
> And when his hair beings to curl,
> I wish you next a baby girl;
> And when her hair begins to knot,
> I guess you know it's time to stop.
>
> Ice cream city, candy state,
> This sweet letter don't need no date.
>
> Up on a house top, baking a cake,
> The way I love you is no mistake.
>
> Pg. 528:
> I don't make love by the garden gate,
> For love is blind, but the neighbors ain't.
>
> I've got a cute little shape, and a pretty little figure;
> Stand back, big boys, until I get a little bigger!
>
> I love you once, I love you twice;
> Baby, I love you next to Jesus Christ.

I love you so much that I'd kill a brick for you.

>
> Milk is milk, cheese is cheese;
> What is a kiss without a squeeze?
>
> You're my morning milk, my evening cream,
> My all-day study, and my midnight dream.
>
> Roses on my shoulders, slippers on my feet;
> I'm my mother's baby, don't you think I'm sweet?
>
> Apples on the shelf, peaches in the bowl,
> Can't get a sweetheart to save my soul.
>
> Up on the mountain, five feet high,
> I love you, baby, that ain't no lie.
>
> Pg. 529:
> When you get married and have twenty-four,
> Don't stop there, the Army needs lots more.
>
> When you get married and your husband gets drunk,
> Put him in the trunk and sell him for junk.
>
> When you get married and have twenty-five,
> Daon't call it a family, call it a tribe!
>
> The river is wide, the boat is floating,
> Darling, let's marry and stop this courting!
>
> Ice is ice, rice is rice;
> One day, baby, you'll be my wife.
>
> Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
> Baby, I'm getting tired of sleeping by myself.
>
> When you get married and live in China,
> Rememeber me back in old North Carolina.
>
> Life is sweet, life is swell,
> But when you marry, life is hell.
>
> When you marry and live across the lake,
> Send me a kiss by a rattlesnake.
>
> When you get married and live upstairs,
> DOn't fall down putting on airs.
>
> When you marry don't marry a cook,
> Marry a man with a fat pocketbook.
>
> When you marry and live across the sea,
> Send me a cocoanut C.O.D.
>
> Lions in the cage, monkeys in the zoo,
> Who wants to marry a fool like you?
>
> Pg. 530:
> If you don't like my apples, don't shake my tree;

You're the cutest thing that I did ever see.
I really love your peaches. Gonna shake your tree.

If you don't like my peaches, don't you shake my tree.

> I ain't after your man, he's after me.
>
> When you get married and live out west,
> I'll send your mail by the Jigger express.
>
> Pg. 531 (Rhymes and Brags from Muhammad Ali, formerly Cassius Clay)
> I'm so mean, I make medicine sick.--Neil Leifer and Thomas Hauser,
> _Muhammad Ali Memories_
>
> Pg. 549:
> _More Dozens_
> Because the dozens is such an obscene exchange, no attempt is made to
> reproduce a game here. Rather I present some carefully chosen standard
> lines from the game.
>
> Yo' mama's like a bag of chips. She free to lay.
> Yo' mama's so dumb she tripped over a cordless phone.
> Yo' mama's so stupid it takes her two hours to watch _60 Minutes_.
> Yo' mama's so dumb she thought she could send a voice mail by
> screaming into a envelope.
> Yo' mama's so bald she gets brainwashed when she takes a shower.
>
> Pg. 550:
> Yo' mama's in the kitchen; yo' daddy's in jail;
> yo' sister on de corner offering it for sale.
>
> _Insults_
>
> Happy birthday to you,
> You belong in a zoo.
> You look like a monkey,
> And smell like one too!
>
> My name is Ran,
> I work in the sand;
> I'd rather be a nigger
> Than a poor White man.
>
> White folks think they fine,
> But their raggedy drawers stink just like mine.
>
> He is so ugly he has to _sneak_ up on a mirror.

He's two shades darker than Bell's telephone. (clearly older than
"black is beautiful" and the break-up of Ma Bell.)

He's of Indian descent: Choctaw. The lightest [sc. shade of skin in
his family] is chocolate; the darkest is tar.

He's so ugly that, when he cries, the tears roll down the back of
his head.

He's so ugly that it looks like he's been in an ax fight and
everybody had an ax but him.

>
> Pg. 551:
> At least my mama ain't no doorknob,
> Everybody get a turn.
>
> Least my mama ain't no railroad track,
> Lay out all over the country.
>
> _Retorts_
>
> Tell the truth, snaggle tooth.
> What you mean, jelly bean?

See what I mean, jelly bean?
You heard what I said, nappy head.
Step out on the patio, daddy-o.
Make like Ezzard and hit the desert.
>
> Pg. 552:
> See you later, Alligator.
> After while, Crocodile.
>
> I dig all jive.
> That's the reason I stay alive.
>
> Your eyes may shine, your teeth may grit,
> But none of this food will you git.

Baby, I'm 500% more man.
I lay more pipe than a plumber can.

After I take a leak, I don't shake it off.
I take my left foot and kick it off.

She got mo' ass than a toilet seat. (Said in response to the
previous observation) Better mo' ass than no ass.

>
>
> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
> Charleroi Mail Friday, December 01, 1950 Charleroi, Pennsylvania
> ...Wilson in v.luch eyes MAY YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. Hut none of my money
> Will you.....sides arc still alking indicates there MAY be scTine ope
> left. When Girl Portia..
>
> Daily Register Saturday, December 23, 1950 Harrisburg, Illinois
> ...her: "YOUR eyes MAY shine. YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. But none of my
> money Will you.....a Merry a New Year Holland's HOLIDAY MAY YOUR
> Holiday Cheer go on and on REES..
>
>
> Edwardsville Intelligencer Wednesday, July 08, 1964 Edwardsville,
> Illinois
> ...you DON'T want MY peaches, DON'T SHAKE MY TREE. When you saw a
> red-haired girl.....Neutral IS A Nice GearBut DON'T You Have Any
> GOLDWATER--ATRAGEDY..
>
>
> Lancaster Eagle Gazette Thursday, July 18, 1974 Lancaster, Ohio
> ...a brick. I'm so mean I MAKE MEDICINE SICK. The occasion for
> Ali's.....now than ever before which could MAKE up for some parts .of
> my game that..
>
>
> Mountain Democrat Friday, February 17, 1989 Placerville, California
> ...I wIsh YOU luck, I wIsh YOU JOY, "I wIsh YOU fIrst a BABY BOY. "AND
> when hIs.....haIr begIns to curl, I wIsh YOU then a BABY gIrl. AND
> when her..
>
>
>
> Post Standard Friday, August 23, 1991 Syracuse, New York
> ...comment on that situation and I 'GOD DOESN'T LIKE UGLY. He'll
> handle the.....coming. He is such a strong Peters DOESN'T have to be
> con- vinced of Seals..
>
> Post Standard Sunday, March 19, 2000 Syracuse, New York
> ...to the public. For more 435-2155. 'GOD DON'T LIKE UGLY' An
> inspirational gospel.....musi- DON'T LIKE comes to the Landmark 362
> S..
>

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 13 23:33:06 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:33:06 -0800
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.153306.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yup, that's it.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: American Negro Folklore (1968)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 12, 2005, at 5:41 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: American Negro Folklore (1968)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Jawbone walk, jawbone talk,
> Jawbone eat with a knife and fork.
> ---Old Minstrel Song
>
>
> Mama's in the kitchen,
> Papa's in jail.
> Sister's on the corner,
> Yellin' "Pussy for sale!"
>
> ---From a song called "Alley Boogie," sung on the march by
> U.S. Marines in New Zealand in WW II.
>
> Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man,
> Washed his face in a fryin' pan,
> Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
> Died with the toothache in his heel.
>
> ---Old Minstrel Song, "Old Dan Tucker"
>
> JL

Is this the same song that has the verse (or chorus?):

Get out of the way of old Dan Tucker
Too late to get his supper
Supper's over and dinner's cookin'
Old Dan Tucker just standin' there lookin'

Wilson, just wondering

>
>
> Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Hawkins," "made in de shade, sold in de sun," and others of interest
> here.
>
>
> AMERICAN NEGRO FOLKLORE
> by J. Mason Brewer
> Chicago: Quadrangle Books
> 1968
>
> Pg. 189 (Slave Seculars and Work Songs):
> _I Went to Atlanta_
>
> I Went to Atlanta
> Never been dere a-fo'
> White folks eat de apple
> Nigger wait fo' co'
>
> (Other verses are "White folks sleep on feather bed" and "White folks
> wear de fancy suit" and "White folks sit in Lawd's place"--ed.)
>
> Pg. 304 (Cold Weather Signs): If turkeys roost high in a tree, it's a
> sign of cold weather. You will hear the old folks say, "Look out,
> children. Hawkins is coming."
>
> Pg. 323 (Creole Proverbs):
> Great to speak, little to do.
> One goes everywhere with fine clothes.
> Ox who comes first always drinks clear water.
> Pg. 324:
> That is not the baptism of a doll. (No laughing matter.)
> When the tree falls the goat climbs it.
> The best swimmer is often drowned.
> When one is very hungry one does not peel the sweet potato.
> His tongue knows no Sunday.
> I keep nothing hidden in the sideboard. (I keep nothing back.)
> Set your type before you go and then read it. (Have on your tongue
> what you are going to say.)
>
> Pg. 338 ("Dirty Dozens" Rhymes):
> Yo' mama's in de kitchen; yo' papa's in jail;
> Yo' sister's round de corner, hollerin' "Hot stuff for sale."
>
> Pg. 339 (Street Cries):
> I sell to the rich,
> I sell to the po';
> I'm gonna sell the lady
> Standin' in that do'.
>
> I got water with the melon, red to the rind!
> If you don't believe it just pull down your blind.
> You eat the watermelon and preee-serve the rind!
>
> Pg. 340:
> We sell it to the rich, we sell it to the poor,
> We give it to the sweet brownskin, peepin' out the door.
> _Tout chaud, Madame, tout chaud!_
> Git 'em while they're hot. Hot _calas_!
>
> The Waffle Man is a fine old man.
> He washes his face in a frying-pan.
> He makes his waffles with his hand.
> Everybody loved the waffle man.
>
> Char-coal! Char-coal!
> My horse is white, my face is black.
> I sell my charcoal, two-bits a sack--
> Char-coal! Char-coal!
>
> Pg. 342:
> Porgy walk; Porgy talk,
> Porgy eat wid a knife an' fork;
> Porgy-e-e-e-!
>
> Vanilla, chocolate, peach cream
> Dat surely freezed by de stream.
> It was made in de shade, an' is sold in de sun.
> If you ain't got a nickel, you can't get none.
>
> Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
> The same old rag man comin' this a-way.
>
> Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.
> Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
> Raw, raw, raw.
>
> Pg. 343 (Jeering and Taunting Rhymes):
> A bushel o' wheat, a bushel o' san',
> Ah'd rather be a nigger than a po' white man.
>
> You bowlegged, lazy,
> An' almo' half crazy.
>
> Pg. 367 (Autograph Album Rhymes):
> You can kiss beneath a grapevine, you can kiss beneath the rose,
> But the best place I know of is to kiss beneath the nose.
>
> Pg. 368:
> Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
> If you don't love nobody, keep it to yourself.
>
> Up the hickory, an' down the pine;
> Good-looking boys is hard to find.
>
> Sugar is sweet, an' coffee is strong;
> Write me a letter, and don't be long.
>
> It takes a rocking chair to rock,
> A rubber ball to roll,
> A tall, skinny papa
> To satisfy my soul.
>
> Orange is a city, Lemon is a state;
> I wrote you a letter, but I forgot de date.
>
> Pg. 369:
> My papa is a butcher,
> My mama cuts de meat.
> Ah'm de little weiner-wish
> Dat runs around destreet.
>
> If the ocean was milk, and the bottom was cream,
> I'd dive for you like a submarine.
>
> Cream cheese, cream cheese floatin' in the air,
> That bald-headed man ain't got no hair.
>
> Pg. 373 (Ring-Game Songs):
> Ooka dooka soda cracker,
> Does your father chew tobacco?
> Yes, my father chews tobacco.
> Ooka dooka soda cracker.
>
>
> Copy cat, copy cat, sittin' on duh fence,
> Trying' tuh make a dollar out o' fifteen cents.
>
>
> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
> Trenton Times Monday, October 17, 1904 Trenton, New Jersey
> ...of whioti starts off with "ANY RAGS, ANY BONES, ANY bottles today."
> Of course.....Fred Barlow, asked, "Have you ANY rags today''" H
> happened that Just..
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 13 23:41:58 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:41:58 -0800
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.154158.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Many Southerners, regardless of race, say "srimp."  "Slitz' for "Schlitz" used to be common. (Dr. Laura) Schlessinger is always "Slessinger."

JL

"Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: American Negro Folklore (1968)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shrimpers from the Gulf region seem to pronounce "shrimp" as "srimp".
IIR, even the movie "Forrest Gump" got this right.

>> Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
>> The same old rag man comin' this a-way.
>>
>> Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.
>
>swimp
>
>Shreveport (Louisiana) is often pronounced "Sweepo" in the local BE.
>(In Texas, we say "Sreepote."
>
>> Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
>> Raw, raw, raw.
>>


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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 13 23:48:32 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:48:32 -0800
Subject: "You can kill a man, but not an idea" (1949) and more
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.154832.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"I've been a moonshiner for seventeen long years..."

Entire song is in Carl Sandburg's "American Songbag" (1927). It has been recorded several times.

JL

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: "You can kill a man, but not an idea" (1949) and more
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are some of the black folklore terms against ProQuest...The Chicago
Tribune is at 1959, not 1969.
...
...
...
...
_AUTO WORKERS ASK CIO: OUST LEFT-WINGERS; Chicagoan Loses Fight on
Resolution _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=489446162&SrchMode=1&sid=24&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108289671&clientId=65882)
GEORGE HARTMANN. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 12,
1949. p. 6 (1 page)
...
"You can kill a man with a 12 gauge shotgun," he (Walter Reuther--ed.) said,
"but you can't kill an idea. The UAW isn't a personal thing. It is an
ideal--it will carry on. We are more determined than ever that the fight of our
union will carry on."
...
...
...
_KING'S BRAVEST HERE; Honorable Artillery of London Seeing the Capital.
ESCORTED UP THE AVENUE English Organization and Their Boston Kindred Met by Troop
of Regulars and the Minutemen of This City -- Earl Denbigh at Head of His
Command -- Reception at White House To-day. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=259551062&SrchMode=1&sid=52&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNam
e=HNP&TS=1108291528&clientId=65882)
The Washington Post. Oct 10, 1903. p. 2 (1 page)
...
The Englishmen have already got a war cry. The words are set to the tune of
a comic opera air, and when the band strikes on the air, the whole company
sung "Any rags, any bones, any bottles: the same old story in the same old way."
They sang this with evident enjoyment over and over again.
...
...
_"Any Rags, Bones, Bottles, Today?"; It Is Hardly Possible That the Cry of
the Ragman Should Suggest to the Layman the Systematized Commerce in Trash or
the Scientific Utilization of Garbage Now Practiced by the Capital -- But
That Is What We Have Come to -- Read the Facts and Be Glad of It. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=247275782&SrchMode=1&sid=52&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&V
Type=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108291528&clientId=65882)
By DAVID RANKIN BARBEE. The Washington Post. Aug 11, 1929. p. SM6 (2 pages)
...
...
_"ANY RAGS, ANY BONES, ANY BOTTLES TODAY?"_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=5&did=399212251&SrchMode=1&sid=52&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNa
me=HNP&TS=1108291528&clientId=65882)
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 27, 1938. p.
11 (1 page)
...
...
...
_A LINE O' TYPE OR TWO_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=359416212&SrchMode=1&sid=54&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108292020
&clientId=65882)
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 5, 1921. p. 8 (1 page)
...
A FEW heart-throbs from the autograph album:

I wish you luck, I wish you joy,
I wish you then a baby boy,
And when his hair begins to curl,
I wish you then a baby girl.
JULIA RAYMER.
...
...
...
_THE MODERN ALMANAC_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=509165402&SrchMode=1&sid=57&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108292380&cl
ientId=65882)
Herb Daniels. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 27,
1956. p. H4 (1 page)
...
Autograph books, you'll be delighted to know, endureth forever with small
fry. WIth school's impending end, there suddenly is born a bittersweet knowledge
of time's flight and a compulsion to capture the happy _now_.

Then autograph books appear as suddenly as a hatch of fluttering
butterflies. Now, as in our day, it is not enough to sign the book. You pick a favorite
color page, write a verse of comment, _then_ sign.

Remember: _Roses are red,/ Violets are blue,/ A face like yours' Belongs in
a zoo_!? Or: _Roses are red,/ Tar is black,/ If I had a knife/ It would be in
your back_!

Advice may accompany autographs: _Don't make love on the garden gate. / Love
is blind, but the neighbors ain't_!
...
...
...
_It's Slangy, Slurry and Fast; SIDEWALKS OF AMERICA: Folklore, Legends,
Sagas, Traditions, Customs, Songs, Stories and Sayings of City Folk. Edited by B.
A. Botkin. Illustrated with drawings. 605 pp. Indianapolis and New York: The
Bobbs-Merrill Company. $5.95. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=96513532&SrchMode=1&sid=64&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110
8293118&clientId=65882)
By HORACE REYNOLDS. New York Times (1857-Current. Dec 5, 1954. p. BR50 (1
page)
...
When it leaves the open air, it often goes into something sordid and seamy:
the tawny burlesque house, to learn the origin of the strip tease; the
honky-tonk, to hear, "If you don't like my peaches, don't shake my tree"; the
employment houses on Skid Row to overhear a bum talking to his buddy about hiring
out as a gandy-dancer.
...
...
...
_AMERICA'S FOLK SONGS_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=96928048&SrchMode=1&sid=93&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108295683&c
lientId=65882)
By ELIE SIEGMEISTER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb
11, 1940. p. 133 (1 page)
...
I've been a moonshiner for seventeen long years,
I've spent all my money on whisky and beers.
...
I'll go to some holler, I'll pick up my still,
I'll make you one gallon for a two-dollar bill.
...
I'll go to some grocery and drink with my friends,
No woman to follow to see what I spends.
...
God bless those pretty women, I wish they were mine;
Their breath smells as sweet as the dew on the vine.
...
I'll eat when I'm hungry and drink when I'm dry,
If moonshine don't kill me, I'll live till I die.
...
God bless those moonshiners. I wish they were mine.
Their breath smells as sweet as the good old moonshine.
...
...
...
_Other 8 -- No Title_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=462914702&SrchMode=1&sid=96&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&V
Type=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108296175&clientId=65882)
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Feb 12, 1946. p. 16 (1
page)
...
3. "God don't like ugly," is a common remark of Negroes in Charleston, S.
C., to indicate that God dislikes
Homeliness Wickedness Dirt Liquor

ANSWERS
3. Wickedness.

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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb 14 00:21:56 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:21:56 -0500
Subject: "Swing Low, (Sweet) Chariot" (1871, 1872); "Roll, Jordan,
 Roll" (1863)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.192156.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's gotta be scholarship on these songs somewhere. "Traditional" just doesn't cut it anymore and shouldn't be good enough for Fred Shapiro's book.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
A MYSTERY EXPLAINED.; WHAT A CAKE WALK AND LIVE PIGEON PIE REALLY ARE SOCIAL ENJOYMENTS IN POTTSVILLE.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 13, 1874. p. 4 (1 page)
(Same "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" citation as I provided yesterday--ed.)


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
THE ROMANCE OF THE NEGRO.
EDWARD A. POLLARD.. The Galaxy. A Magazine of Entertaining Reading (1866-1878). New York: Oct 1871. Vol. VOL. XII., Iss. No. 4.; p. 470 (9 pages)
Last page (478):
...attest that the negro speaker is _feeling_ what he says, when he is in the full tide of exhortation, when, perchance, he sees his favorite religious phantasm, "the old ship of Zion," far away on the stormy waves, or sings, as of a longing spectator, the hymn of "Swing low, Chariot," one of the characteristic visions of the sky.

NON-PROSCRIPTIVE SCHOOLS IN THE SOUTH.
C G FAIRCHILD. Old and New (1870-1875). Boston: Feb 1874. Vol. 9, Iss. 2; p. 223 (10 pages)
Pg. 8 (230):
But a more poetic softness, a gorgeousness of fancy, a protection from dreaded enemies, a tranquil flow of social joys, characterize the negro's heaven.

"Roll, Jordan, roll!
Oh! I want to go to heaven when I die,
To hear Jordan roll,"

is a favorite song.

"Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home,"

indicates the luxious ascent. A song of the resurrection with the refrain,--

"O Lord! these bones of mine
Come together in the morning,"

contains such verses as these:--

"When I git on my golden shoes,
I'll walk about heaven, and tell the news.

As I passed by the gates of hell,
I bid the Devil fare you well.

Old Satan thought he had me fast:
I broke his chains, and am free at last."


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
Schools for Contrabands.
Arthur's Home Magazine (1861-1870). Philadelphia: Nov 1863. Vol. 22, Iss. 5; p. 208 (5 pages)
Pg. 209:
The prevalent song, however, heard in every school, in church, and by the way-side, is that of "John Brown," which very much amuses our white soldiers, particularly when the singers roll out,--

"We'll hang Jeff Davis on a sour apple tree!"

Other songs of the negroes are common, as, "The Wrestling Jacob," "Down in the lonesome valley," "Roll, Jordan, roll," "Heab'n shall-a be my home." Russell's "Diary" gives an account of these songs, as he heard them in his evening row over Broad River, on his way to Trescot's estate.


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Title: Jubilee songs :
as sung by the Jubilee Singers, of Fisk University (Nashville, Tenn.) /
Author(s): Seward, Theodore F.; 1835-1902. ; (Theodore Frelinghuysen),; (Compiler - com); (Transcriber - trc); White, George L.; 1838-1895. ; (George Leonard),; (Transcriber - trc)
Corp Author(s): Jubilee Singers. ; American Missionary Association.
Publication: New York (425 Broome St.) :; Biglow & Main,
Year: 1872
Description: 1 close score (28 p.), [4] p. ;; 25 cm.
Language: English
Music Type: Hymns; Multiple forms; Songs
Contents: Nobody knows the trouble I see, Lord! -- Swing low, sweet chariot -- Room enough -- O redeemed -- Roll, Jordan, roll -- Turn back Pharaoh's army -- Rise, mourners -- From every graveyard -- Children, we all shall be free -- I'm a rolling -- I'll hear the trumpet sound -- Didn't my Lord deliver Daniel -- I've just come from the fountain -- Children, you'll be called on -- Give me Jesus -- Gwine to ride up in the chariot -- We'll die in the field -- Go down, Moses -- The rocks and the mountains -- Been a listening -- Keep me from sinking down ; I'm a trav'ling to the grave / [Robbins Battell] -- Many thousand gone -- Steal away.
 SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: Choruses, Sacred (Mixed voices), Unaccompanied -- Scores.
Spirituals (Songs)
Note(s): For unison or SATB chorus, unacc. or with piano./ "Introduction, by the American Missionary Association" ([4] p. at end) signed by E.M. Cravath./ "The words were taken down ... by Mr. [Geo. L.] White ... and the music was reduced to writing by Theo. F. Seward"--Introd./ List of the members of the Jubilee Singers: Page [2] of introd.
Class Descriptors: LC: M2081
Responsibility: under the auspices of the American Missionary Association.
Document Type: Score
Entry: 19891104
Update: 20030904
Accession No: OCLC: 20598086
Database: WorldCat


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb 14 01:03:04 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:03:04 -0500
Subject: "Roll, Jordan, Roll" (1862)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.200304.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Roll, Jordan, Roll" is a year earlier on another database....The following web site has the lyrics, but no song history (as usual).


(GOOGLE)
ROLL JORDAN ROLL Official Site of Negro Spirituals, antique Gospel ...Back to songs index. ROLL JORDAN ROLL. Roll Jordan, roll Roll Jordan, roll I wanter go to heav'n when I die To hear ol' Jordan roll ...
www.negrospirituals.com/news-song/roll_jordan_roll.htm - 10k - Cached - Similar pages


(NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES)
1. Towne, Laura Matilda. "Diary of Laura Matilda Towne, July, 1862"
[Page 73 | Paragraph | Section | Document]
A grand, noble flag, supplied by General Saxton, was stretched over the road in full view. The people, marshalled by Mr. Wells on one side, Mr. Gannett on the other, came in procession from below and above the church carrying branches in their hands and singing "Roll, Jordan, Roll." They formed under the flag and before the platform into a dense mass and sang many of their own songs. At General Saxton's request, Nelly's school-children then sang Whittier's song-- "Now praise and tank de Lord, he come To set de people free;

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Towne, Laura Matilda. "Letter from Laura Matilda Towne, July 17, 1862"
[Page 79 | Paragraph | Section | Document]
flowers, the hedges of Adam's-needle, with heads of white bells a foot or two through and four feet high; the purple pease with blossoms that look like dog-tooth violets-- just the size-- climbing up the cotton-plant with its yellow flower, and making whole fields purple and gold; the passion flowers in the grass; the swinging palmetto sprays. I send the music. It is not right, but will give you some idea. "Roll, Jordan, Roll" is the finest song. Notes 17 Richard Soule, Jr.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Grimké, Charlotte L. Forten. "Diary of Charlotte L. Forten Grimké, October, 1862"
[Page 128 | Paragraph | Section | Document]
and the gorgeous clouds of crimson and gold were reflected in the waters below, which were smooth and calm as a mirror. Then, as we glided along, the rich sonorous tones of the boatmen broke upon the evening stillness. Their singing impressed me much. It was so sweet and strange and solemn. "Roll, Jordan, Roll" was grand, and another "Jesus make de blind to see Jesus make de deaf to hear Jesus make de cripple walk Walk in, dear Jesus," and the refrain "No man can hender me." It

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Grimké, Charlotte L. Forten. "Diary of Charlotte L. Forten Grimké, November, 1862"
[Page 136 | Paragraph | Section | Document]
fine singing. It was very pleasant to be at church again. For two Sundays past I had not been, not feeling well. This eve. our boys and girls with others from across the creek came in and sang a long time for us. Of course we had the old favorites "Down in the Lonesome Valley," and "Roll, Jordan, Roll," and "No man can hender me," and beside those several shouting tunes that we had not heard before; they are very wild and strange. It was impossible for me to understand many of the words although I asked them to repeat them for me. I only know that one had something about "De Nell Am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5. Grimké, Charlotte L. Forten. "Diary of Charlotte L. Forten Grimké, December, 1862"
[Page 151 | Paragraph | Section | Document]
man of very gentlemanly and pleasing manners.-- A good man, and much interested in the people, I sh'ld think. I liked him. Then Mr. Fairfield [?] spoke to them about the birth of Christ. Afterward they sang; Among other things, "John Brown," Whittier's "Hymn," "Sing, oh Graveyard," and "Roll, Jordan Roll." There was no one present beside the teachers, our household, [Lt.] Col. B[illings] [,] Mr. T[horpe], Mr. F[airfield] and Miss Rosa [Towne] and Miss W[are]. I enjoyed the day very much. Was too excited and interested to feel weariness then, but am quite

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. Grimké, Charlotte L. Forten. "Diary of Charlotte L. Forten Grimké, July, 1863"
[Page 192 | Paragraph | Section | Document]
we had taught them for that occasion. Then addresses were made by Mr. Pierce, Mr. Lynch (a colored minister) and other gentlemen, there was more singing by the children and by the people, who made the grove resound with the grand tones of "Roll, Jordan, Roll." Then they were all treated to molasses and water-- a great luxury to them-- and hard tack. Among others from Beaufort, Mrs. Lander, and Mr. Page, the [New York] Tribune Correspondent were there. I had met them before--

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7. Editor. "Introduction" [ Note]
James Hugo Johnston, Race Relations in Virginia and Miscegenation in the South, 1776-1860 (Amherst, Mass., 1970), pp. 165-90, 243; Kenneth M. Stampp, The Peculiar Institution: Slavery in the Ante-Bellum South (New York, 1956), pp. 350-61; Eugene D. Genovese, Roll, Jordan, Roll: The World the Slaves Made (New York, 1974), pp. 413-29; Bertram Wyatt-Brown, Southern Honor: Ethics and Behavior in the Old South (New York, 1982), pp. 307-24; Weiner, "Plantation Mistresses and Female Slaves," pp. 131-39, 177-90; bell hooks, Ain't I a

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Results Bibliography
Towne, Laura Matilda, 1825-1901, Diary of Laura Matilda Towne, July, 1862, in Letters and Diary of Laura M. Towne Written from the Sea Islands of South Carolina 1862-1884. Holland, Rupert Sargent, ed.. Cambridge, MA: Riverside Press, 1912, pp. 310. [Bibliographic Details] [View Full Text][7-4-1862] S381-D014
Towne, Laura Matilda, 1825-1901, Letter from Laura Matilda Towne, July 17, 1862, in Letters and Diary of Laura M. Towne Written from the Sea Islands of South Carolina 1862-1884. Holland, Rupert Sargent, ed.. Cambridge, MA: Riverside Press, 1912, pp. 310. [Bibliographic Details] [View Full Text][7-17-1862] S381-D015

Grimké, Charlotte L. Forten, 1837-1914, Diary of Charlotte L. Forten Grimké, October, 1862, in The Journal of Charlotte L. Forten. Billington, Ray Allen, introd.. New York, NY: Dryden Press, 1953, pp. 248. [Bibliographic Details] [Biography] [View Full Text][10-21-1862] S294-D067

Grimké, Charlotte L. Forten, 1837-1914, Diary of Charlotte L. Forten Grimké, November, 1862, in The Journal of Charlotte L. Forten. Billington, Ray Allen, introd.. New York, NY: Dryden Press, 1953, pp. 248. [Bibliographic Details] [Biography] [View Full Text][11-2-1862] S294-D068

Grimké, Charlotte L. Forten, 1837-1914, Diary of Charlotte L. Forten Grimké, December, 1862, in The Journal of Charlotte L. Forten. Billington, Ray Allen, introd.. New York, NY: Dryden Press, 1953, pp. 248. [Bibliographic Details] [Biography] [View Full Text][12-1-1862] S294-D069

Grimké, Charlotte L. Forten, 1837-1914, Diary of Charlotte L. Forten Grimké, July, 1863, in The Journal of Charlotte L. Forten. Billington, Ray Allen, introd.. New York, NY: Dryden Press, 1953, pp. 248. [Bibliographic Details] [Biography] [View Full Text][7-2-1863] S294-D076

Editor, Introduction, in Secret Eye: The Journal of Ella Gertrude Clanton Thomas, 1848-1889. Burr, Virginia Ingraham. Chapel Hill, NC: University of North Carolina Press, 1990, pp. 469. [Bibliographic Details] [Undated] S616-D001


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Feb 14 01:17:40 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:17:40 -0500
Subject: railroad slang: "on the cat hop" (right on time)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.201740.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ramon F. Adams in _The Language of the Railroader_.  Norman: U. of
Oklahoma Press, 1977, p 108:

on the advertised: According to schedule; on time; also _on the card, on
the cat hop_.

In the DA:

cat hop, 1891 Quinn Fools of Fortune 195 If, on the other hand, two of the
three cards are of the same denomination, only three arrangements are
possible, ... which is technically called a 'cat hop.'  1909 Cent. Supp.,
Cat-hop, in faro, two cards of the same denomination left in the
dealing-box for the last turn.

In DARE:

cat-hop n cf cat back 1949 PADS 11.19 CO, Cat-hop  ... Mild bucking [of a
horse].

cat back v 1961 Adams Old-Time Cowhand 300, A hoss which jumped 'bout with
arched back and stiffened knees at a pretense of buckin' was said to ...
"cat back."

N.B.  The two Adams books are by the same author.

I don't find it in OED/OEDs/Chapman/Wentworth & Flexner.  MW3, Barrey and
Van den Bark (1942) have only the gambling sense.

More information as I may find it.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Sunday, February 13,
2005 at 4:50 PM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
>Subject:      railroad slang: "on the cat hop" (right on time)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   I've been asked by a history professor  about an expression he came
>across in his research on the railroads: "on the cat hop" (right on
>time), e.g., "The freight train left on the cat hop."
>
>    I don't have OED or DARE handy, and so maybe "cat hop" appears there.
>But in any case I don't find it in HDAS or Casell's Dictionary of Slang.
>Would anyone in ads-l be familiar with this term and how it came to mean
>"right on time"?
>
>Gerald Cohen


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Feb 14 05:08:02 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:08:02 -0500
Subject: railroad slang: "on the cat hop" (right on time)
In-Reply-To: <A7704766F9EE3949B30D5BF6297999A21B86E4@UMR-CMAIL3.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.000802.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>    I've been asked by a history professor  about an expression he came
> across in his research on the railroads: "on the cat hop" (right on
> time), e.g., "The freight train left on the cat hop."

"Cat hop" has been used in various ways, but I think the basic sense here
would be "pounce". The train "pounces" away from the platform after waiting
catlike for its proper time. This analogy might have been particularly
appropriate to one who had arrived seconds late and missed the train. Just
a speculation. This hypothesis would assume that the original context was
like "departed/started on the cat-hop", with any other contexts (such as
"rolling along the track, on the cat-hop" or "pulled into the station on
the cat-hop") appearing only after the expression was equated to "on time".

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Feb 14 05:43:56 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:43:56 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <b09a8f53c4a4e8d0f47408a46b156ce1@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.004356.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>You know, for years I've wondered why it is that, even though it's
>spelled correctly, so many people mispronounce the name of Sri Lanka as
>"Shree" Lanka instead of as "Sree" Lanka.
>
>-Wilson <just kidding>

In seriousness, how would one choose between /sri/ and /Sri/ in "Sri
Lanka"? Reputable English dictionaries show both, so I don't think one can
be faulted for either. I've said /Sri/ as long as I can remember, don't
remember why; Singhalese speakers have not corrected me, but that's not
conclusive. The Worldwide Web of Lies and Errors includes assertions both
ways. I couldn't find a recording of the name spoken by a Sri Lankan
authority right away; I was able to find the name in Sinhala script, and
orthographically it seems to correspond to /Sri/, but that's not
necessarily decisive either without further information.

Of course I don't think an ordinary (even educated and careful) English
speaker should consider himself obligated to pronounce the name of some
Siberian village just as the natives do, or even to pronounce "Paris" as a
Frenchman might, or to say such things as "Deutschland" or
"Zhong[1]guo[2]". But I think the major dictionaries should provide native
pronunciation approximations or recommendations at least for large entities
such as nations.

-- Doug Wilson


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Feb 14 05:59:12 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:59:12 -0500
Subject: zydeco/zottico (1955)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.005912.0500.>

For "zydeco" and its variants ("zodico", "zologo", etc.), OED has:

-----
1949 in Leadbitter & Slaven Blues Records 1943-66 (1968) 136 Zologo
(Organ Blues)--1. Gold Star 669.
1960 M. MCCORMICK notes to LP record Treasury of Field Recordings I 31
Two local groups..have achieved nation~wide record sales with their
interpretations of Zydeco music.
[etc.]
-----

Here's an early print reference, with the spelling "zottico":

-----
"On Saturday night, somebody holds a 'zottico' in his home. Out come the
accordion, banjo and rub bo'd. The latter is an oldtime washing board. The
musician plays it with a thimble on his finger. Off they whirl in a folk
dance similar to a square dance."
Marie Lee Phelps, "Visit to Frenchtown," _Houston Post_ May 22, 1955, 5:2.

Cited in:
John Minton, "Houston Creoles and Zydeco: The Emergence of an African
American Urban Popular Style," _American Music_ Vol. 14, No. 4 (Winter,
1996), p. 500.
-----

Minton also gives the date of McCormick's notes to _A Treasury of Field
Recordings_ as 1959, not 1960.


--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb 14 06:35:47 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:35:47 -0500
Subject: "Spending money they don't have to impress people they don't
 like" (1928, Will Rogers?)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.013547.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

IMPRESS PEOPLE  THEY DON'T LIKE--1,330 Google hits, 156 Google Groups hits

Is this from Will Rogers? I came across it in a book about New York.


NEW YORK CITY FOLKLORE:
LEGENDS, TALL TALES, ANECDOTES, STORIES, SAGAS, HEROES AND CHARACTERS, CUSTOMS, TRADITIONS AND SAYINGS
edited by B. A. Botkin
New York: Random House
1956

Pg. 3: Fifth Avenue is a street where a lot of people spend money they haven't earned buying things they don't need to impress people they don't like.
(Footnote One: From _New York and the State It's In_, Stories and pictures arranged by Keith Jennison,...1949--ed.)


(GOOGLE)
Quotes of Will Rogers
... Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want,
to impress people they don't like. ... Will Rogers (1879-1935). ...
twotrees.www.50megs.com/attic/quotes/rogers.html - 7k - Cached - Similar pages


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
PEN POINTS
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 4, 1928. p. A4 (1 page):
Americanism: Using money you haven't earned to buy things you don't need to impress people you don't like.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
24 January 1929, The Bee (Danville, VA), pg. 6, col. 3:
How many people do you know who are spending money they have not yet earned for things they don't need to impress people they don't like.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Other 13 -- No Title
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 14, 1938. p. 17 (1 page)
_Federal Employees Insurance News:_ One of the troubles of this modern age is that too many people are spending money they have not yet earned for things they do not need, to impress people they don't like.

EMILE GAUVREAU, EX-EDITOR, IS DEAD; Chief of Sensational Graphic and of The Mirror 'Made' News, Doctored Photos Depicted an Era Worked for The Courant With Russian Mission
>From drawing made some years ago by James Montgomery Flagg.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 17, 1956. p. 35 (1 page):
Mr. Gavreau recalled that "I was part of that strange race of people aptly described as spending their lives doing things they detest to make money they don't want to buy things they don't need to impress people they don't like."

On Finding a Life in a Living
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Oct 30, 1956. p. 20 (1 page):
A recent newspaper obituary quotes a former editor whose contributions ot journalism had made him perhaps less than an ornament of the craft:

I was part of that strange race of people aptly described as spending their lives doing things they detest to make money they don't want to buy things they don't need to impress people they don't like.

Today's Chuckle
The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jun 26, 1958. p. B1 (1 page):
People are funny:  They spend money they don't have, to buy things they don't need, to impress people they don't like.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb 14 06:53:50 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:53:50 -0500
Subject: zydeco/zottico (1955)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.015350.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Minton also gives the date of McCormick's notes to _A >Treasury of Field
>Recordings_ as 1959, not 1960.

>--Ben Zimmer


OED probably had to use the 1960 date for the notes to the 1960 copyrighted work. This was probably not an error; it's certainly not misleading.

Jeez, I must have looked into "zydeco" ten years ago...It would help to be able to use the Peter Tamony collection again, but this $25-a-word business just isn't going to bring any business to the Western Historical Manuscript Collection at the University of Missouri-Columbia. You can buy a whole book for $25.


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Title: A Treasury of field recordings :
a panorama of the traditions found in Houston, the city, and its neighboring bayous, plains, beaches, prisons, plantations, and piney woods ... /
Author(s): McCormick, Mack.
Publication: [S.l. : s.n.], S. Lane)
Year: 1960
Description: 2 v. : ill. ; 23 cm.
Language: English
Contents: v. 1. Traditional music and song -- v. 2. Regional and personalised song.
SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: Folk music -- Texas -- History and criticism.
Note(s): Imprint from v. 2./ Vol. 2 issued as "Descriptive booklet to 'A Treasury of field recordings, v. 2' ... record no. 77/LA/12-3, produced by Dobell's Jazz Record Shop ... London"--Vol. 2, p. 59.
Class Descriptors: LC: ML3551
Responsibility: compiled by Mack McCormick.
Document Type: Book


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb 14 07:59:50 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:59:50 -0500
Subject: "A nickel a shtickel" (1946)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.025950.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Maybe Fred can use this rhyme in his Yiddish quotations section. I just added it to my web site (www.barrypopik.com).


"A nickel a shtickel."

New York delis used to feature these signs. It meant that they were selling the ends of a salami for five cents.

It was a good rhyme and a good business.
...
...
...
...
<i>New York City Folklore</i>
edited by B. A. Botkin
New York: Random House
1956
[From "The Jewish Delicatessen," by Ruth Glazer, in <i>Commentary on the American Scene: Portraits of Jewish Life in America</i> (1953). This was originally published as "From the American Scene" in the magazine <i>Commentary</i>, Vol. 1 • March 1946 • No. 5]

Pg. 370: "A Nickel a Shtickel"
Pg. 371: And invariably on the glass-topped counter is a plate with small chunks of salami. In the old days the plate always carried a sign, "A Nickel a Shtickel." (A most convenient - and profitable - way of disposing of the ends of the salami, too.) This immortal rhyme succumbed during the [Second World] war to the free verse of "Have a Nosh - 10c."
...
...
...
15 August 1952, Zanesville (OH) Signal, "Walter Winchell On Broadway" column, pg. 4, col. 4:
Harry's Delicatessen (on 47th off B'way) still features "nickel for a shtickel" - chunks of salamee.
...
...
2 April 1972, New York <i>Times</i>, pg. A13:
There was Rosen's Delicatessen in Queens Village, where you got a small hunk of salami for five cents - "a schtickel for a nickel," he called it.
...
...
7 July 1982, New York <i>Times</i>, pg. C1:
"MENTALLY, I'm always noshing," said Mayor Koch, explaining the conflict he has between loving to eat and wanting to keep his weight down. "What I mentally nosh on most used to be called 'a nickel a schtickel' - those small end pieces of salami that were sold on top of the counters in New York delis for 5 cents."
...
...
4 November 1984, New York <i>Times</i>, "True Confessions of a Deli Addict" by Nora Ephron, pg. 425:
Sometimes I would chew on a miniature salami called a "schtickel" (there was a sign at Linny's that read: "A nickel a schtickel is a rhyme, now a nickel a schtickel is a dime") and press my nose against the glass case as a counterman sliced the Nova on the diagonal and laid it on sheets of waxed paper.


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Feb 14 12:16:55 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:16:55 -0500
Subject: Fwd: like sardines in a can
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.071655.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----

                Saturday, February 12, 2005 12:11:20 PM
Message
From:           Barnhart
Subject:        like sardines in a can
To:             ADS-L - direct



OED: 1911 packed like sardines in a box

OED: 1922 [Dialect Notes]  However, if one fishes around in the electronic
edition, there is _packed like sardines_ in Harper's Magazine (April 1887).

But, I stumbled across the following:

We passed a most miserable night.  We lay down as best we could, and were
packed like sardines in a box.  All wanted to sleep; but if one man moved,
he woke half a dozen others, who again in waking roused all the rest; so
seelp was, like our supper, onlyu to be enjoyed in imagination, and aall
we could do was to wait intently for daylight.
J.D. Borthwick, _To California Via Panama_, London: 1857, in _Pictures of
Gold Rush California_, Chicago: Lakeside Press, 1949, Chapter 2 p 49

For me, sardines come packed in a can.  So, the expression ought to read
for modern contexts "[packed] like sardines in a can."  It's not in OED.

The earliest quote I've found so far for this is:

"Butrning cotton is one of the most stubborn fires to extinguish," said
assistant fire chief W.B. Cooper.  "And that boxcar was packed like
sardines in a can."  _Daily Journal_ [Commerce, Texas], Sept. 16, 1957, p 1

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Feb 14 12:52:59 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:52:59 -0500
Subject: [?] "A nickel a shtickel" (1946)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.075259.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A brief note on sch-~schm- appears in Wentworth & Flexner (p. 606).


David

barnhart at highlands.com

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Monday, February 14,
2005 at 2:59 AM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
>Subject:      "A nickel a shtickel" (1946)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Maybe Fred can use this rhyme in his Yiddish quotations section. I just
>added it to my web site (www.barrypopik.com).
>
>
>"A nickel a shtickel."
>
>New York delis used to feature these signs. It meant that they were
>selling the ends of a salami for five cents.
>
>It was a good rhyme and a good business.
>...
>...
>...
>...
><i>New York City Folklore</i>
>edited by B. A. Botkin
>New York: Random House
>1956
>[From "The Jewish Delicatessen," by Ruth Glazer, in <i>Commentary on the
>American Scene: Portraits of Jewish Life in America</i> (1953). This was
>originally published as "From the American Scene" in the magazine
><i>Commentary</i>, Vol. 1 • March 1946 • No. 5]
>
>Pg. 370: "A Nickel a Shtickel"
>Pg. 371: And invariably on the glass-topped counter is a plate with small
>chunks of salami. In the old days the plate always carried a sign, "A
>Nickel a Shtickel." (A most convenient - and profitable - way of
>disposing of the ends of the salami, too.) This immortal rhyme succumbed
>during the [Second World] war to the free verse of "Have a Nosh - 10c."
>...
>...
>...
>15 August 1952, Zanesville (OH) Signal, "Walter Winchell On Broadway"
>column, pg. 4, col. 4:
>Harry's Delicatessen (on 47th off B'way) still features "nickel for a
>shtickel" - chunks of salamee.
>...
>...
>2 April 1972, New York <i>Times</i>, pg. A13:
>There was Rosen's Delicatessen in Queens Village, where you got a small
>hunk of salami for five cents - "a schtickel for a nickel," he called it.
>...
>...
>7 July 1982, New York <i>Times</i>, pg. C1:
>"MENTALLY, I'm always noshing," said Mayor Koch, explaining the conflict
>he has between loving to eat and wanting to keep his weight down. "What I
>mentally nosh on most used to be called 'a nickel a schtickel' - those
>small end pieces of salami that were sold on top of the counters in New
>York delis for 5 cents."
>...
>...
>4 November 1984, New York <i>Times</i>, "True Confessions of a Deli
>Addict" by Nora Ephron, pg. 425:
>Sometimes I would chew on a miniature salami called a "schtickel" (there
>was a sign at Linny's that read: "A nickel a schtickel is a rhyme, now a
>nickel a schtickel is a dime") and press my nose against the glass case
>as a counterman sliced the Nova on the diagonal and laid it on sheets of
>waxed paper.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 14 13:43:10 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:43:10 -0500
Subject: Melioration
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.084310.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The phrases. "get some boodie" and "give up some boodie" now appear to
be to be treated as ordinary slang instead of as the obscenities that
they've always been heretofore.

  In the roto-gravure (is this term still used? haven't heard it since
the '40's) of the local broadsheet, a local newly-wed mentions that her
husband wanted to "get some booty." On a local TV chat show, a woman
says that a guy took her over to his house because he thought she was
going to "give up some booty."

Well. language-change is inevitable.

-Wilson Gray


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 14 14:24:29 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:24:29 -0800
Subject: Melioration
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.062429.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An earlier example that springs to mind is to "get off," which in mainstream usage changed from "experience orgasm" to "enjoy oneself (often perversely)."  This happened around 1970.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Melioration
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The phrases. "get some boodie" and "give up some boodie" now appear to
be to be treated as ordinary slang instead of as the obscenities that
they've always been heretofore.

In the roto-gravure (is this term still used? haven't heard it since
the '40's) of the local broadsheet, a local newly-wed mentions that her
husband wanted to "get some booty." On a local TV chat show, a woman
says that a guy took her over to his house because he thought she was
going to "give up some booty."

Well. language-change is inevitable.

-Wilson Gray


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 14 14:51:13 2005
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:51:13 -0800
Subject: children's chants--Rise SAlly
In-Reply-To: <BE3547D2.3FAC%mthom@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.065113.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Leadbelly recorded a version of this in the 40s as
Little Sally Walker.

It's on this release: Party songs/Sings and Plays

http://www.oldies.com/product/view.cfm/id_56092.html

Probably recorded it elsewhere as well.


--- Maggie Thompson <mthom at RCN.COM> wrote:

> I remember from my grade-school days (1948-54) a
> playground game that
> featured the chant about "Sally."  The kids formed a
> circle, "Sally"
> crouched in the middle, and the circle kids chanted:
>
> little Sally Ann
> Sitting in the sand
> Crying, crying,
> For a young man.
>
> (the kid playing "Sally" would pretend to cry)
>
> Rise, Sally, rise
> Wipe your crying eyes.
> Turn to the east and
> Turn to the west and
> Turn to the one that
> You love best.
>
> ("Sally" would act this out, pick another kid, who
> then went into the middle
> and it all started over.)
>
> There may have been more to this, but I don't
> remember it.  I grew up in
> Elizabeth, PA, about 15 miles from Pittsburgh, by
> the way.
>
> Maggie Thompson
>



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Feb 14 16:53:11 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:53:11 -0500
Subject: nice coinage
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.115311.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At least I think it's a coinage, but I wouldn't be too surprised to
learn of antedates.  There are no prior hits for "Generation A.D.D."
on Nexis, while google is no help for an irrelevant reason.

The New York Times
February 11, 2005 Friday
SECTION: Section E; FILM REVIEW; Pg. 13
HEADLINE: A Cautionary Tale Arguing for Freedom of Expression
BYLINE: By MANOHLA DARGIS

  It was the image seen -- cheered and jeered, canonized and demonized
-- around the world. In 1972 Linda Lovelace, nee Linda Boreman, star
of the notorious hard-core movie ''Deep Throat,'' played the role
that would bequeath on her a tawdry and lasting celebrity. With a
single act of extreme fellatio, this dazed and often confused
23-year-old became a pinup for the party animal's sexual revolution
and, in time, a martyr in the crusade against pornography. But as is
clear from the lively, if maddeningly reductive documentary ''Inside
Deep Throat,'' Ms. Boreman was also little more than a pawn, an empty
vessel for opportunists from both sides of the pornography divide.

  Written and directed by Fenton Bailey and Randy Barbato, who
produced the film with the Hollywood big shot Brian Grazer (''A
Beautiful Mind''), ''Inside Deep Throat'' is a ''slam, bam, thank
you, ma'am'' trifle of an entertainment. Strategically packaged for
Generation A.D.D., with rapid-fire editing, flash graphics and a
breathlessly upbeat vibe, the documentary fuses a melange of
stag-loop snippets, educational-film guffaws and television news
reports with a hit parade of talking heads. Among the notables
delivering generally less-than-considered opinions are hipster
antiques like Norman Mailer, Hugh Hefner, Xaviera Hollander and Dick
Cavett, who claims never to have seen ''Deep Throat.'' The most
entertaining? The Cosmo senior Helen Gurley Brown, who happily
volunteers that ejaculate is good for the complexion.
...


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Feb 14 17:06:08 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:06:08 -0500
Subject: "Re-inventing the wheel" (1965)
In-Reply-To: <140.3e07364a.2f407f33@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.120608.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's a slightly earlier example:

1964 _Stanford Law Review_ XVI. 520  "Rediscovering America" or
"reinventing the wheel" is not a fruitful activity even if we do it with
new language and techniques.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Feb 14 17:45:44 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:45:44 -0800
Subject: Melioration
In-Reply-To: <20050214142429.85684.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.094544.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 14, 2005, at 6:24 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> An earlier example that springs to mind is to "get off," which in
> mainstream usage changed from "experience orgasm" to "enjoy oneself
> (often perversely)."  This happened around 1970.

melioration for the intransitive verb "get off (on)" ("I really get off
  on Sichuan cuisine"), but the transitive verb "get off" ("I got Kim
off last night") is still resolutely sexual: "I got Kim off last night
with Sichuan cuisine" can't mean 'I caused Kim enjoyment last night
with Sichuan cuisine'.

as is so often the case, historically related senses of words don't
always undergo semantic shift in parallel.

arnold


From preston at MSU.EDU  Mon Feb 14 17:50:07 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:50:07 -0500
Subject: Melioration
In-Reply-To: <6c8106f97eadbf58f6d6a6fa9e87956e@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.125007.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

arnold,

Why must you place images like "getting Kim off last night with
Sichuan cuisine" in our heads? How am I supposed to get any work done?

dInIs



>On Feb 14, 2005, at 6:24 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>>An earlier example that springs to mind is to "get off," which in
>>mainstream usage changed from "experience orgasm" to "enjoy oneself
>>(often perversely)."  This happened around 1970.
>
>melioration for the intransitive verb "get off (on)" ("I really get off
>  on Sichuan cuisine"), but the transitive verb "get off" ("I got Kim
>off last night") is still resolutely sexual: "I got Kim off last night
>with Sichuan cuisine" can't mean 'I caused Kim enjoyment last night
>with Sichuan cuisine'.
>
>as is so often the case, historically related senses of words don't
>always undergo semantic shift in parallel.
>
>arnold


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb 14 17:58:51 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:58:51 -0500
Subject: CNN (Craven News Network); OT: Daily Candy
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.125851.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CNN--The lead editorial in Sunday's New York Post was about the CNN controversy, The Post has used "Craven News Network" before, but it may stick.

OT: DAILY CANDY (www.dailycandy.com)

Here's today's version. How could this restaurant "open tonight" when I ate there on Saturday? (After visiting another restaurant that Daily Candy said was open but was not.) And how could it be a "small but bustling spot" if it hasn't opened? Just asking.

A list of the crap we've done for Mom:


Called weekly (okay, daily)

Kept mini fire extinguisher under kitchen sink

Carried laminated "in case of emergency, please call" card in wallet

Stopped dating questionable biker guy (still mad at her for it)

Donatella Arpaia (of David Burke and Donatella fame) has just one-upped us all by creating a new restaurant to honor the food her mom raised her on. Ama, which opens tonight, is a welcome addition to the bleak landscape of Italian food in SoHo.

The small but bustling spot features the cuisine of Puglia, the region in the heel of the boot, where Mamma Arpaia was born. Chef Turibio Girardi prepares local favorites like panzerotti (fried calzone), raviolini in capon broth, and capuntini (homemade pasta with fresh tomato sauce, eggplant, and ricotta). Main courses are heavy on seafood, rabbit, sweetbreads, and pancetta-stuffed quail.

The best dessert is the almond cookies. No surprise there. They're grandma's recipe.

And so we add yet another item to the list:


Eat a proper dinner.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Feb 14 18:05:39 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:05:39 -0800
Subject: Melioration
In-Reply-To: <a06020402be369503e1cf@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.100539.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 14, 2005, at 9:50 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> Why must you place images like "getting Kim off last night with
> Sichuan cuisine" in our heads? How am I supposed to get any work done?

i am an evil person.  to quote (approximately, from memory) the Cold
Duke of Coffin Castle, from Thurber's The Thirteen Clocks: We all have
our little flaws.  Mine is being evil.

arnold, getting the week off to a good start


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Feb 14 18:22:02 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:22:02 -0500
Subject: Melioration
In-Reply-To: <a06020402be369503e1cf@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.132202.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:50 PM -0500 2/14/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>arnold,
>
>Why must you place images like "getting Kim off last night with
>Sichuan cuisine" in our heads? How am I supposed to get any work done?
>
>dInIs
>

Yes, it does give a whole new meaning to the concept of a hot date...

>
>>On Feb 14, 2005, at 6:24 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>
>>>An earlier example that springs to mind is to "get off," which in
>>>mainstream usage changed from "experience orgasm" to "enjoy oneself
>>>(often perversely)."  This happened around 1970.
>>
>>melioration for the intransitive verb "get off (on)" ("I really get off
>>  on Sichuan cuisine"), but the transitive verb "get off" ("I got Kim
>>off last night") is still resolutely sexual: "I got Kim off last night
>>with Sichuan cuisine" can't mean 'I caused Kim enjoyment last night
>>with Sichuan cuisine'.
>>
>>as is so often the case, historically related senses of words don't
>>always undergo semantic shift in parallel.
>>
>>arnold
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Feb 14 18:34:54 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:34:54 -0800
Subject: [?] "A nickel a shtickel" (1946)
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e01cfa0ea3b9aca00fa3ef46a.1cfa0f4@chain.highlands.com>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.103454.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Except I don't think "a nickel a shtickel" is an instance of the "x-schmx"
pattern.  It simply means  "a nickel a piece," using the diminutive form of
"shtick" 'piece'.  (Cf. south German Stück - Stückl~Stückrl.)

Peter Mc.

--On Monday, February 14, 2005 7:52 AM -0500 Barnhart
<barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM> wrote:

> A brief note on sch-~schm- appears in Wentworth & Flexner (p. 606).
>
>
> David
>
> barnhart at highlands.com
>
> American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Monday, February 14,
> 2005 at 2:59 AM -0500 wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
>> Subject:      "A nickel a shtickel" (1946)
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -------
>>
>> Maybe Fred can use this rhyme in his Yiddish quotations section. I just
>> added it to my web site (www.barrypopik.com).
>>
>>
>> "A nickel a shtickel."
>>
>> New York delis used to feature these signs. It meant that they were
>> selling the ends of a salami for five cents.
>>
>> It was a good rhyme and a good business.
>> ...
>> ...
>> ...
>> ...
>> <i>New York City Folklore</i>
>> edited by B. A. Botkin
>> New York: Random House
>> 1956
>> [From "The Jewish Delicatessen," by Ruth Glazer, in <i>Commentary on the
>> American Scene: Portraits of Jewish Life in America</i> (1953). This was
>> originally published as "From the American Scene" in the magazine
>> <i>Commentary</i>, Vol. 1 â?¢ March 1946 â?¢ No. 5]
>>
>> Pg. 370: "A Nickel a Shtickel"
>> Pg. 371: And invariably on the glass-topped counter is a plate with small
>> chunks of salami. In the old days the plate always carried a sign, "A
>> Nickel a Shtickel." (A most convenient - and profitable - way of
>> disposing of the ends of the salami, too.) This immortal rhyme succumbed
>> during the [Second World] war to the free verse of "Have a Nosh - 10c."
>> ...
>> ...
>> ...
>> 15 August 1952, Zanesville (OH) Signal, "Walter Winchell On Broadway"
>> column, pg. 4, col. 4:
>> Harry's Delicatessen (on 47th off B'way) still features "nickel for a
>> shtickel" - chunks of salamee.
>> ...
>> ...
>> 2 April 1972, New York <i>Times</i>, pg. A13:
>> There was Rosen's Delicatessen in Queens Village, where you got a small
>> hunk of salami for five cents - "a schtickel for a nickel," he called it.
>> ...
>> ...
>> 7 July 1982, New York <i>Times</i>, pg. C1:
>> "MENTALLY, I'm always noshing," said Mayor Koch, explaining the conflict
>> he has between loving to eat and wanting to keep his weight down. "What I
>> mentally nosh on most used to be called 'a nickel a schtickel' - those
>> small end pieces of salami that were sold on top of the counters in New
>> York delis for 5 cents."
>> ...
>> ...
>> 4 November 1984, New York <i>Times</i>, "True Confessions of a Deli
>> Addict" by Nora Ephron, pg. 425:
>> Sometimes I would chew on a miniature salami called a "schtickel" (there
>> was a sign at Linny's that read: "A nickel a schtickel is a rhyme, now a
>> nickel a schtickel is a dime") and press my nose against the glass case
>> as a counterman sliced the Nova on the diagonal and laid it on sheets of
>> waxed paper.



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Feb 14 20:20:20 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:20:20 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.152020.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A part of the lyric to a blues/jazz number recorded in the 1920s?, very
dimly recollected: "I got a fine woman, lives back of the jail, got a
sign in her window, good pussy for sale."

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
Date: Saturday, February 12, 2005 5:41 pm
Subject: Re: American Negro Folklore (1968)

> Jawbone walk, jawbone talk,
> Jawbone eat with a knife and fork.
>          ---Old Minstrel Song
>
>
> Mama's in the kitchen,
> Papa's in jail.
> Sister's on the corner,
> Yellin' "Pussy for sale!"
>
>           ---From a song called "Alley Boogie,"  sung on the
> march by U.S. Marines in New Zealand in WW II.
>
> Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man,
> Washed his face in a fryin' pan,
> Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
> Died with the toothache in his heel.
>
>          ---Old Minstrel Song, "Old Dan Tucker"
>
> JL
>
>
> Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------
> ------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
>
> "Hawkins," "made in de shade, sold in de sun," and others of
> interest here.
>
>
> AMERICAN NEGRO FOLKLORE
> by J. Mason Brewer
> Chicago: Quadrangle Books
> 1968
>
> Pg. 189 (Slave Seculars and Work Songs):
> _I Went to Atlanta_
>
> I Went to Atlanta
> Never been dere a-fo'
> White folks eat de apple
> Nigger wait fo' co'
>
> (Other verses are "White folks sleep on feather bed" and "White
> folks wear de fancy suit" and "White folks sit in Lawd's place"--ed.)
>
> Pg. 304 (Cold Weather Signs): If turkeys roost high in a tree,
> it's a sign of cold weather. You will hear the old folks say,
> "Look out, children. Hawkins is coming."
>
> Pg. 323 (Creole Proverbs):
> Great to speak, little to do.
> One goes everywhere with fine clothes.
> Ox who comes first always drinks clear water.
> Pg. 324:
> That is not the baptism of a doll. (No laughing matter.)
> When the tree falls the goat climbs it.
> The best swimmer is often drowned.
> When one is very hungry one does not peel the sweet potato.
> His tongue knows no Sunday.
> I keep nothing hidden in the sideboard. (I keep nothing back.)
> Set your type before you go and then read it. (Have on your tongue
> what you are going to say.)
>
> Pg. 338 ("Dirty Dozens" Rhymes):
> Yo' mama's in de kitchen; yo' papa's in jail;
> Yo' sister's round de corner, hollerin' "Hot stuff for sale."
>
> Pg. 339 (Street Cries):
> I sell to the rich,
> I sell to the po';
> I'm gonna sell the lady
> Standin' in that do'.
>
> I got water with the melon, red to the rind!
> If you don't believe it just pull down your blind.
> You eat the watermelon and preee-serve the rind!
>
> Pg. 340:
> We sell it to the rich, we sell it to the poor,
> We give it to the sweet brownskin, peepin' out the door.
> _Tout chaud, Madame, tout chaud!_
> Git 'em while they're hot. Hot _calas_!
>
> The Waffle Man is a fine old man.
> He washes his face in a frying-pan.
> He makes his waffles with his hand.
> Everybody loved the waffle man.
>
> Char-coal! Char-coal!
> My horse is white, my face is black.
> I sell my charcoal, two-bits a sack--
> Char-coal! Char-coal!
>
> Pg. 342:
> Porgy walk; Porgy talk,
> Porgy eat wid a knife an' fork;
> Porgy-e-e-e-!
>
> Vanilla, chocolate, peach cream
> Dat surely freezed by de stream.
> It was made in de shade, an' is sold in de sun.
> If you ain't got a nickel, you can't get none.
>
> Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
> The same old rag man comin' this a-way.
>
> Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.
> Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
> Raw, raw, raw.
>
> Pg. 343 (Jeering and Taunting Rhymes):
> A bushel o' wheat, a bushel o' san',
> Ah'd rather be a nigger than a po' white man.
>
> You bowlegged, lazy,
> An' almo' half crazy.
>
> Pg. 367 (Autograph Album Rhymes):
> You can kiss beneath a grapevine, you can kiss beneath the rose,
> But the best place I know of is to kiss beneath the nose.
>
> Pg. 368:
> Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
> If you don't love nobody, keep it to yourself.
>
> Up the hickory, an' down the pine;
> Good-looking boys is hard to find.
>
> Sugar is sweet, an' coffee is strong;
> Write me a letter, and don't be long.
>
> It takes a rocking chair to rock,
> A rubber ball to roll,
> A tall, skinny papa
> To satisfy my soul.
>
> Orange is a city, Lemon is a state;
> I wrote you a letter, but I forgot de date.
>
> Pg. 369:
> My papa is a butcher,
> My mama cuts de meat.
> Ah'm de little weiner-wish
> Dat runs around destreet.
>
> If the ocean was milk, and the bottom was cream,
> I'd dive for you like a submarine.
>
> Cream cheese, cream cheese floatin' in the air,
> That bald-headed man ain't got no hair.
>
> Pg. 373 (Ring-Game Songs):
> Ooka dooka soda cracker,
> Does your father chew tobacco?
> Yes, my father chews tobacco.
> Ooka dooka soda cracker.
>
>
> Copy cat, copy cat, sittin' on duh fence,
> Trying' tuh make a dollar out o' fifteen cents.
>
>
> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
> Trenton Times Monday, October 17, 1904 Trenton, New Jersey
> ...of whioti starts off with "ANY RAGS, ANY BONES, ANY bottles
> today." Of course.....Fred Barlow, asked, "Have you ANY rags
> today''" H happened that Just..
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Feb 14 20:26:48 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:26:48 -0500
Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.152648.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> "Gettin' more ass than a toilet seat."  In movie The Deer Hunter
> (1979), cited in HDAS.

Heard from a college student in the early 1960s, in Boston.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
Date: Sunday, February 13, 2005 6:30 pm
Subject: Re: African American Folklore (2002)

> "What I mean, jelly-bean!"  NYC white kids, 1959.
>
> "Gettin' more ass than a toilet seat."  In movie The Deer Hunter
> (1979), cited in HDAS.
>
> "So skinny, when she cries the tears run down her back."
> Kingston, NY, white kid, ca1970.
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------
> ------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: African American Folklore (2002)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
>
> On Feb 12, 2005, at 2:47 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
> > Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> > --------
> >
> > Even "I must develop my bust" is here!...ProQuest is down right now,
> > so I'll search these with Newspaperarchive.
>
> "I must develop my bust"?!!! Well, after a half-century of
> desegregation and contamination, what can one expect?
>
> More random stuff below.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
> >
> >
> > FROM MY PEOPLE:
> > 400 YEARS OF AFICAN AMERICAN FOLKLORE
> > edited by Caryl Cumber Dance
> > New York: W. W. Norton
> > 2002
> >
> > Pg. 470 (Aphorisms and Other Proverbial Sayings):
> > God don't like ugly.
> > Hard head, soft behind.
> >
> > Pg. 471:
> > You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.--Medgar Evans.
> >
> > Pg. 480:
> > _I'll Eat Hen I'm Hungry_
> > From Thomas W. Talley, _Negro Folk Rhymes_
> >
> > I'll eat when I'se hungry,
> > An' I'll rink when I'se dry;
> > An' if de whitefolks don't kill me,
> > I'll live till I die.
> >
> > In my liddle log cabin,
> > Ever since I've been born;
> > Dere hain't been no nothin'
> > 'Cept dat hard salt parch corn.
> > Pg. 481:
> > But I knows what's a henhouse,
> > An' de tucky he charve;
> > An' if old Mosser don't kill me,
> > I cain't never starve.
> >
> > _Aught's a Aughts_
> > Traditional
> >
> > An aught's a aught and a figger's a figger;
> > All for the white folks and none for the nigger.
> >
> > Pg. 509:
> > _Hambone, Hambone_
> > This traditional clapping game may be played with a partner or one
> > indiv,; slap his thigh as he recites. Additional lines may be
> > improvised.
> >
> > Hambone, Hambone, where you been?
> > Round the world and back again.
> >
> > Hambone, Hambone, what'd you do?
> > I got a train and I fairly flew.
> >
> > Hambone, Hambone, where'd you stay?
> > I met a pretty girl and I couldn't get away.
> >
> > Hambone, Hambone, where'd you go?
> > I hopped up to Miss Lucy's door.
> >
> > Hambone, Hambone, what's you see?
> > I asked Miss Lucy to marry me.
> >
> > Pg. 511:
> > _We Must, We Must, We Must_
> > From Daryl Cumber Dance, _Honey, Hush!_
> > WHen I recorded this verse on May 21, 1995, the singer told me she
> > learned it in gym class in the 1950s, but as she sang a younger
> woman> joined her, suggesting that it has passed on to the next
> generation.>
> > We must, we must, we must,
> > We must develop our bust.
> >
> > We must, we must, we must,
> > We must develop our bust.
> >
> > The bigger the better,
> > The tighter the sweater.
> > The boys are depending on us.
> >
> > Pg. 526 (Autograph Album Rhymes, from J. Mason Brewer, _Worser Days
> > and Better Times_):
> > Love all, trust few;
> > Learn to paddle your own canoe.
> >
> > Pg. 527:
> > When you marry and get out of shape,
> > Get you a girdle for $2.98.
> >
> > The Mississippi River is deep and wide;
> > Catch an alligator to the other side.
> >
> > Girls are made of sugar and spice;
> > Boys aren't made, they just shoot dice.
> >
> > When you get old and think you're sweet,
> > Take off your shoes, and smell your feet.
> >
> > I wish you luck, I wish you joy,
> > I wish you first a baby boy;
> > And when his hair beings to curl,
> > I wish you next a baby girl;
> > And when her hair begins to knot,
> > I guess you know it's time to stop.
> >
> > Ice cream city, candy state,
> > This sweet letter don't need no date.
> >
> > Up on a house top, baking a cake,
> > The way I love you is no mistake.
> >
> > Pg. 528:
> > I don't make love by the garden gate,
> > For love is blind, but the neighbors ain't.
> >
> > I've got a cute little shape, and a pretty little figure;
> > Stand back, big boys, until I get a little bigger!
> >
> > I love you once, I love you twice;
> > Baby, I love you next to Jesus Christ.
>
> I love you so much that I'd kill a brick for you.
>
> >
> > Milk is milk, cheese is cheese;
> > What is a kiss without a squeeze?
> >
> > You're my morning milk, my evening cream,
> > My all-day study, and my midnight dream.
> >
> > Roses on my shoulders, slippers on my feet;
> > I'm my mother's baby, don't you think I'm sweet?
> >
> > Apples on the shelf, peaches in the bowl,
> > Can't get a sweetheart to save my soul.
> >
> > Up on the mountain, five feet high,
> > I love you, baby, that ain't no lie.
> >
> > Pg. 529:
> > When you get married and have twenty-four,
> > Don't stop there, the Army needs lots more.
> >
> > When you get married and your husband gets drunk,
> > Put him in the trunk and sell him for junk.
> >
> > When you get married and have twenty-five,
> > Daon't call it a family, call it a tribe!
> >
> > The river is wide, the boat is floating,
> > Darling, let's marry and stop this courting!
> >
> > Ice is ice, rice is rice;
> > One day, baby, you'll be my wife.
> >
> > Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
> > Baby, I'm getting tired of sleeping by myself.
> >
> > When you get married and live in China,
> > Rememeber me back in old North Carolina.
> >
> > Life is sweet, life is swell,
> > But when you marry, life is hell.
> >
> > When you marry and live across the lake,
> > Send me a kiss by a rattlesnake.
> >
> > When you get married and live upstairs,
> > DOn't fall down putting on airs.
> >
> > When you marry don't marry a cook,
> > Marry a man with a fat pocketbook.
> >
> > When you marry and live across the sea,
> > Send me a cocoanut C.O.D.
> >
> > Lions in the cage, monkeys in the zoo,
> > Who wants to marry a fool like you?
> >
> > Pg. 530:
> > If you don't like my apples, don't shake my tree;
>
> You're the cutest thing that I did ever see.
> I really love your peaches. Gonna shake your tree.
>
> If you don't like my peaches, don't you shake my tree.
>
> > I ain't after your man, he's after me.
> >
> > When you get married and live out west,
> > I'll send your mail by the Jigger express.
> >
> > Pg. 531 (Rhymes and Brags from Muhammad Ali, formerly Cassius Clay)
> > I'm so mean, I make medicine sick.--Neil Leifer and Thomas Hauser,
> > _Muhammad Ali Memories_
> >
> > Pg. 549:
> > _More Dozens_
> > Because the dozens is such an obscene exchange, no attempt is
> made to
> > reproduce a game here. Rather I present some carefully chosen
> standard> lines from the game.
> >
> > Yo' mama's like a bag of chips. She free to lay.
> > Yo' mama's so dumb she tripped over a cordless phone.
> > Yo' mama's so stupid it takes her two hours to watch _60 Minutes_.
> > Yo' mama's so dumb she thought she could send a voice mail by
> > screaming into a envelope.
> > Yo' mama's so bald she gets brainwashed when she takes a shower.
> >
> > Pg. 550:
> > Yo' mama's in the kitchen; yo' daddy's in jail;
> > yo' sister on de corner offering it for sale.
> >
> > _Insults_
> >
> > Happy birthday to you,
> > You belong in a zoo.
> > You look like a monkey,
> > And smell like one too!
> >
> > My name is Ran,
> > I work in the sand;
> > I'd rather be a nigger
> > Than a poor White man.
> >
> > White folks think they fine,
> > But their raggedy drawers stink just like mine.
> >
> > He is so ugly he has to _sneak_ up on a mirror.
>
> He's two shades darker than Bell's telephone. (clearly older than
> "black is beautiful" and the break-up of Ma Bell.)
>
> He's of Indian descent: Choctaw. The lightest [sc. shade of skin in
> his family] is chocolate; the darkest is tar.
>
> He's so ugly that, when he cries, the tears roll down the back of
> his head.
>
> He's so ugly that it looks like he's been in an ax fight and
> everybody had an ax but him.
>
> >
> > Pg. 551:
> > At least my mama ain't no doorknob,
> > Everybody get a turn.
> >
> > Least my mama ain't no railroad track,
> > Lay out all over the country.
> >
> > _Retorts_
> >
> > Tell the truth, snaggle tooth.
> > What you mean, jelly bean?
>
> See what I mean, jelly bean?
> You heard what I said, nappy head.
> Step out on the patio, daddy-o.
> Make like Ezzard and hit the desert.
> >
> > Pg. 552:
> > See you later, Alligator.
> > After while, Crocodile.
> >
> > I dig all jive.
> > That's the reason I stay alive.
> >
> > Your eyes may shine, your teeth may grit,
> > But none of this food will you git.
>
> Baby, I'm 500% more man.
> I lay more pipe than a plumber can.
>
> After I take a leak, I don't shake it off.
> I take my left foot and kick it off.
>
> She got mo' ass than a toilet seat. (Said in response to the
> previous observation) Better mo' ass than no ass.
>
> >
> >
> > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
> > Charleroi Mail Friday, December 01, 1950 Charleroi, Pennsylvania
> > ...Wilson in v.luch eyes MAY YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. Hut none of my
> money> Will you.....sides arc still alking indicates there MAY be
> scTine ope
> > left. When Girl Portia..
> >
> > Daily Register Saturday, December 23, 1950 Harrisburg, Illinois
> > ...her: "YOUR eyes MAY shine. YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. But none of my
> > money Will you.....a Merry a New Year Holland's HOLIDAY MAY YOUR
> > Holiday Cheer go on and on REES..
> >
> >
> > Edwardsville Intelligencer Wednesday, July 08, 1964 Edwardsville,
> > Illinois
> > ...you DON'T want MY peaches, DON'T SHAKE MY TREE. When you saw a
> > red-haired girl.....Neutral IS A Nice GearBut DON'T You Have Any
> > GOLDWATER--ATRAGEDY..
> >
> >
> > Lancaster Eagle Gazette Thursday, July 18, 1974 Lancaster, Ohio
> > ...a brick. I'm so mean I MAKE MEDICINE SICK. The occasion for
> > Ali's.....now than ever before which could MAKE up for some
> parts .of
> > my game that..
> >
> >
> > Mountain Democrat Friday, February 17, 1989 Placerville, California
> > ...I wIsh YOU luck, I wIsh YOU JOY, "I wIsh YOU fIrst a BABY
> BOY. "AND
> > when hIs.....haIr begIns to curl, I wIsh YOU then a BABY gIrl. AND
> > when her..
> >
> >
> >
> > Post Standard Friday, August 23, 1991 Syracuse, New York
> > ...comment on that situation and I 'GOD DOESN'T LIKE UGLY. He'll
> > handle the.....coming. He is such a strong Peters DOESN'T have
> to be
> > con- vinced of Seals..
> >
> > Post Standard Sunday, March 19, 2000 Syracuse, New York
> > ...to the public. For more 435-2155. 'GOD DON'T LIKE UGLY' An
> > inspirational gospel.....musi- DON'T LIKE comes to the Landmark 362
> > S..
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 14 20:33:40 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:33:40 -0500
Subject: Melioration
In-Reply-To: <E1D0ktO-0005U3-00@mx20.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.153340.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For a while, back in '71, "get it up to/for" had a brief run. I think
that it began to die around the time that a female colleague was heard
to comment that she "couldn't get it up to go across the street," where
a class was being held while the campus was shut down by an anti-war
protest. A suggestion by this same woman, after the inappropriateness
of the use of this bit of guy-talk by a woman had been explained to
her, that women, therefore, should say, "get it wet to/for" probably
applied the coup de grace.

The somewhat similar phrase, "get/be up to/for" has a familiar ring,
but it's been around so long that I can't get it up to claim that that
phrase has the same origin as "get it up."

-Wilson

On Feb 14, 2005, at 1:22 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Melioration
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 12:50 PM -0500 2/14/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>> arnold,
>>
>> Why must you place images like "getting Kim off last night with
>> Sichuan cuisine" in our heads? How am I supposed to get any work done?
>>
>> dInIs
>>
>
> Yes, it does give a whole new meaning to the concept of a hot date...
>
>>
>>> On Feb 14, 2005, at 6:24 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>
>>>> An earlier example that springs to mind is to "get off," which in
>>>> mainstream usage changed from "experience orgasm" to "enjoy oneself
>>>> (often perversely)."  This happened around 1970.
>>>
>>> melioration for the intransitive verb "get off (on)" ("I really get
>>> off
>>>  on Sichuan cuisine"), but the transitive verb "get off" ("I got Kim
>>> off last night") is still resolutely sexual: "I got Kim off last
>>> night
>>> with Sichuan cuisine" can't mean 'I caused Kim enjoyment last night
>>> with Sichuan cuisine'.
>>>
>>> as is so often the case, historically related senses of words don't
>>> always undergo semantic shift in parallel.
>>>
>>> arnold
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dennis R. Preston
>> University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African
>> Languages
>> A-740 Wells Hall
>> Michigan State University
>> East Lansing, MI 48824
>> Phone: (517) 432-3099
>> Fax: (517) 432-2736
>> preston at msu.edu
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Feb 14 20:48:01 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:48:01 -0500
Subject: spirituals
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.154801.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry asks, "How could Oxford publish a book like this?", referring to
THE OXFORD BOOK OF SPIRITUALS, edited by Moses Hogan, Oxford University
Press 2002.

Please, Barry, don't look at Goldenballs and the Iron Lady: a little
book of nicknames, by Andrew Delahunty, Oxford University Press, 2004.
And if you MUST, then please don't look at the entries for "windy city"
and "big apple".  And if you do read those entries, talk a walk around
the block before posting your thoughts to ADS-L.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 14 20:53:14 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:53:14 -0500
Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
In-Reply-To: <E1D0mo8-0005sB-00@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.155314.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 14, 2005, at 3:26 PM, George Thompson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: African American Folklore (2002)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> "Gettin' more ass than a toilet seat."  In movie The Deer Hunter
>> (1979), cited in HDAS.
>
> Heard from a college student in the early 1960s, in Boston.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

Heard from a college student in the early 1960's in Los Angeles. There
was also a version used to describe a woman: "She got more ass than a
toilet seat," i.e. she "pack much back" in the Sir-Mix-A-Lotian sense.

If this had spread from one end of the country to the other by then, it
makes me wish that there was a Federal Catch-Phrase Authority to which
the inventor of such a phrase would have to report.

-Wilson

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Date: Sunday, February 13, 2005 6:30 pm
> Subject: Re: African American Folklore (2002)
>
>> "What I mean, jelly-bean!"  NYC white kids, 1959.
>>
>> "Gettin' more ass than a toilet seat."  In movie The Deer Hunter
>> (1979), cited in HDAS.
>>
>> "So skinny, when she cries the tears run down her back."
>> Kingston, NY, white kid, ca1970.
>>
>> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------
>> ------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>> Subject: Re: African American Folklore (2002)
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2005, at 2:47 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
>>> Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Even "I must develop my bust" is here!...ProQuest is down right now,
>>> so I'll search these with Newspaperarchive.
>>
>> "I must develop my bust"?!!! Well, after a half-century of
>> desegregation and contamination, what can one expect?
>>
>> More random stuff below.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> FROM MY PEOPLE:
>>> 400 YEARS OF AFICAN AMERICAN FOLKLORE
>>> edited by Caryl Cumber Dance
>>> New York: W. W. Norton
>>> 2002
>>>
>>> Pg. 470 (Aphorisms and Other Proverbial Sayings):
>>> God don't like ugly.
>>> Hard head, soft behind.
>>>
>>> Pg. 471:
>>> You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.--Medgar Evans.
>>>
>>> Pg. 480:
>>> _I'll Eat Hen I'm Hungry_
>>> From Thomas W. Talley, _Negro Folk Rhymes_
>>>
>>> I'll eat when I'se hungry,
>>> An' I'll rink when I'se dry;
>>> An' if de whitefolks don't kill me,
>>> I'll live till I die.
>>>
>>> In my liddle log cabin,
>>> Ever since I've been born;
>>> Dere hain't been no nothin'
>>> 'Cept dat hard salt parch corn.
>>> Pg. 481:
>>> But I knows what's a henhouse,
>>> An' de tucky he charve;
>>> An' if old Mosser don't kill me,
>>> I cain't never starve.
>>>
>>> _Aught's a Aughts_
>>> Traditional
>>>
>>> An aught's a aught and a figger's a figger;
>>> All for the white folks and none for the nigger.
>>>
>>> Pg. 509:
>>> _Hambone, Hambone_
>>> This traditional clapping game may be played with a partner or one
>>> indiv,; slap his thigh as he recites. Additional lines may be
>>> improvised.
>>>
>>> Hambone, Hambone, where you been?
>>> Round the world and back again.
>>>
>>> Hambone, Hambone, what'd you do?
>>> I got a train and I fairly flew.
>>>
>>> Hambone, Hambone, where'd you stay?
>>> I met a pretty girl and I couldn't get away.
>>>
>>> Hambone, Hambone, where'd you go?
>>> I hopped up to Miss Lucy's door.
>>>
>>> Hambone, Hambone, what's you see?
>>> I asked Miss Lucy to marry me.
>>>
>>> Pg. 511:
>>> _We Must, We Must, We Must_
>>> From Daryl Cumber Dance, _Honey, Hush!_
>>> WHen I recorded this verse on May 21, 1995, the singer told me she
>>> learned it in gym class in the 1950s, but as she sang a younger
>> woman> joined her, suggesting that it has passed on to the next
>> generation.>
>>> We must, we must, we must,
>>> We must develop our bust.
>>>
>>> We must, we must, we must,
>>> We must develop our bust.
>>>
>>> The bigger the better,
>>> The tighter the sweater.
>>> The boys are depending on us.
>>>
>>> Pg. 526 (Autograph Album Rhymes, from J. Mason Brewer, _Worser Days
>>> and Better Times_):
>>> Love all, trust few;
>>> Learn to paddle your own canoe.
>>>
>>> Pg. 527:
>>> When you marry and get out of shape,
>>> Get you a girdle for $2.98.
>>>
>>> The Mississippi River is deep and wide;
>>> Catch an alligator to the other side.
>>>
>>> Girls are made of sugar and spice;
>>> Boys aren't made, they just shoot dice.
>>>
>>> When you get old and think you're sweet,
>>> Take off your shoes, and smell your feet.
>>>
>>> I wish you luck, I wish you joy,
>>> I wish you first a baby boy;
>>> And when his hair beings to curl,
>>> I wish you next a baby girl;
>>> And when her hair begins to knot,
>>> I guess you know it's time to stop.
>>>
>>> Ice cream city, candy state,
>>> This sweet letter don't need no date.
>>>
>>> Up on a house top, baking a cake,
>>> The way I love you is no mistake.
>>>
>>> Pg. 528:
>>> I don't make love by the garden gate,
>>> For love is blind, but the neighbors ain't.
>>>
>>> I've got a cute little shape, and a pretty little figure;
>>> Stand back, big boys, until I get a little bigger!
>>>
>>> I love you once, I love you twice;
>>> Baby, I love you next to Jesus Christ.
>>
>> I love you so much that I'd kill a brick for you.
>>
>>>
>>> Milk is milk, cheese is cheese;
>>> What is a kiss without a squeeze?
>>>
>>> You're my morning milk, my evening cream,
>>> My all-day study, and my midnight dream.
>>>
>>> Roses on my shoulders, slippers on my feet;
>>> I'm my mother's baby, don't you think I'm sweet?
>>>
>>> Apples on the shelf, peaches in the bowl,
>>> Can't get a sweetheart to save my soul.
>>>
>>> Up on the mountain, five feet high,
>>> I love you, baby, that ain't no lie.
>>>
>>> Pg. 529:
>>> When you get married and have twenty-four,
>>> Don't stop there, the Army needs lots more.
>>>
>>> When you get married and your husband gets drunk,
>>> Put him in the trunk and sell him for junk.
>>>
>>> When you get married and have twenty-five,
>>> Daon't call it a family, call it a tribe!
>>>
>>> The river is wide, the boat is floating,
>>> Darling, let's marry and stop this courting!
>>>
>>> Ice is ice, rice is rice;
>>> One day, baby, you'll be my wife.
>>>
>>> Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
>>> Baby, I'm getting tired of sleeping by myself.
>>>
>>> When you get married and live in China,
>>> Rememeber me back in old North Carolina.
>>>
>>> Life is sweet, life is swell,
>>> But when you marry, life is hell.
>>>
>>> When you marry and live across the lake,
>>> Send me a kiss by a rattlesnake.
>>>
>>> When you get married and live upstairs,
>>> DOn't fall down putting on airs.
>>>
>>> When you marry don't marry a cook,
>>> Marry a man with a fat pocketbook.
>>>
>>> When you marry and live across the sea,
>>> Send me a cocoanut C.O.D.
>>>
>>> Lions in the cage, monkeys in the zoo,
>>> Who wants to marry a fool like you?
>>>
>>> Pg. 530:
>>> If you don't like my apples, don't shake my tree;
>>
>> You're the cutest thing that I did ever see.
>> I really love your peaches. Gonna shake your tree.
>>
>> If you don't like my peaches, don't you shake my tree.
>>
>>> I ain't after your man, he's after me.
>>>
>>> When you get married and live out west,
>>> I'll send your mail by the Jigger express.
>>>
>>> Pg. 531 (Rhymes and Brags from Muhammad Ali, formerly Cassius Clay)
>>> I'm so mean, I make medicine sick.--Neil Leifer and Thomas Hauser,
>>> _Muhammad Ali Memories_
>>>
>>> Pg. 549:
>>> _More Dozens_
>>> Because the dozens is such an obscene exchange, no attempt is
>> made to
>>> reproduce a game here. Rather I present some carefully chosen
>> standard> lines from the game.
>>>
>>> Yo' mama's like a bag of chips. She free to lay.
>>> Yo' mama's so dumb she tripped over a cordless phone.
>>> Yo' mama's so stupid it takes her two hours to watch _60 Minutes_.
>>> Yo' mama's so dumb she thought she could send a voice mail by
>>> screaming into a envelope.
>>> Yo' mama's so bald she gets brainwashed when she takes a shower.
>>>
>>> Pg. 550:
>>> Yo' mama's in the kitchen; yo' daddy's in jail;
>>> yo' sister on de corner offering it for sale.
>>>
>>> _Insults_
>>>
>>> Happy birthday to you,
>>> You belong in a zoo.
>>> You look like a monkey,
>>> And smell like one too!
>>>
>>> My name is Ran,
>>> I work in the sand;
>>> I'd rather be a nigger
>>> Than a poor White man.
>>>
>>> White folks think they fine,
>>> But their raggedy drawers stink just like mine.
>>>
>>> He is so ugly he has to _sneak_ up on a mirror.
>>
>> He's two shades darker than Bell's telephone. (clearly older than
>> "black is beautiful" and the break-up of Ma Bell.)
>>
>> He's of Indian descent: Choctaw. The lightest [sc. shade of skin in
>> his family] is chocolate; the darkest is tar.
>>
>> He's so ugly that, when he cries, the tears roll down the back of
>> his head.
>>
>> He's so ugly that it looks like he's been in an ax fight and
>> everybody had an ax but him.
>>
>>>
>>> Pg. 551:
>>> At least my mama ain't no doorknob,
>>> Everybody get a turn.
>>>
>>> Least my mama ain't no railroad track,
>>> Lay out all over the country.
>>>
>>> _Retorts_
>>>
>>> Tell the truth, snaggle tooth.
>>> What you mean, jelly bean?
>>
>> See what I mean, jelly bean?
>> You heard what I said, nappy head.
>> Step out on the patio, daddy-o.
>> Make like Ezzard and hit the desert.
>>>
>>> Pg. 552:
>>> See you later, Alligator.
>>> After while, Crocodile.
>>>
>>> I dig all jive.
>>> That's the reason I stay alive.
>>>
>>> Your eyes may shine, your teeth may grit,
>>> But none of this food will you git.
>>
>> Baby, I'm 500% more man.
>> I lay more pipe than a plumber can.
>>
>> After I take a leak, I don't shake it off.
>> I take my left foot and kick it off.
>>
>> She got mo' ass than a toilet seat. (Said in response to the
>> previous observation) Better mo' ass than no ass.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
>>> Charleroi Mail Friday, December 01, 1950 Charleroi, Pennsylvania
>>> ...Wilson in v.luch eyes MAY YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. Hut none of my
>> money> Will you.....sides arc still alking indicates there MAY be
>> scTine ope
>>> left. When Girl Portia..
>>>
>>> Daily Register Saturday, December 23, 1950 Harrisburg, Illinois
>>> ...her: "YOUR eyes MAY shine. YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. But none of my
>>> money Will you.....a Merry a New Year Holland's HOLIDAY MAY YOUR
>>> Holiday Cheer go on and on REES..
>>>
>>>
>>> Edwardsville Intelligencer Wednesday, July 08, 1964 Edwardsville,
>>> Illinois
>>> ...you DON'T want MY peaches, DON'T SHAKE MY TREE. When you saw a
>>> red-haired girl.....Neutral IS A Nice GearBut DON'T You Have Any
>>> GOLDWATER--ATRAGEDY..
>>>
>>>
>>> Lancaster Eagle Gazette Thursday, July 18, 1974 Lancaster, Ohio
>>> ...a brick. I'm so mean I MAKE MEDICINE SICK. The occasion for
>>> Ali's.....now than ever before which could MAKE up for some
>> parts .of
>>> my game that..
>>>
>>>
>>> Mountain Democrat Friday, February 17, 1989 Placerville, California
>>> ...I wIsh YOU luck, I wIsh YOU JOY, "I wIsh YOU fIrst a BABY
>> BOY. "AND
>>> when hIs.....haIr begIns to curl, I wIsh YOU then a BABY gIrl. AND
>>> when her..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Post Standard Friday, August 23, 1991 Syracuse, New York
>>> ...comment on that situation and I 'GOD DOESN'T LIKE UGLY. He'll
>>> handle the.....coming. He is such a strong Peters DOESN'T have
>> to be
>>> con- vinced of Seals..
>>>
>>> Post Standard Sunday, March 19, 2000 Syracuse, New York
>>> ...to the public. For more 435-2155. 'GOD DON'T LIKE UGLY' An
>>> inspirational gospel.....musi- DON'T LIKE comes to the Landmark 362
>>> S..
>>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Feb 14 20:57:53 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:57:53 -0500
Subject: CNN (Craven News Network); OT: Daily Candy
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.155753.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        In retailing, and I believe perhaps also in the restaurant business (which is a sufficiently affiliated industry that individual restaurants in a chain are sometimes called "stores), there is a distinction between a "soft opening" and a "grand opening."  The grand opening is the formal opening, advertised as such.  The soft opening is the beginning of an earlier period in which the store is open, but there is no advertising.  This initial period is used to address startup issues and to further train employees before the crush of customers occasioned by the grand opening.

John Baker



-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Bapopik at AOL.COM
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 12:59 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: CNN (Craven News Network); OT: Daily Candy



How could this restaurant "open tonight" when I ate there on Saturday? (After visiting another restaurant that Daily Candy said was open but was not.) And how could it be a "small but bustling spot" if it hasn't opened? Just asking.


From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Feb 14 20:59:26 2005
From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:59:26 -0800
Subject: Hindoo Salad
In-Reply-To: <200502142056.j1EKuQ8q005468@mxe3.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.125926.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The question of whether to use Hindu or Hindoo in writing about the Raj
has come up in another list.  Someone quoted Hindoo Salad, "from the Fanny
Farmer cookbook," as an example of the spelling.  The salad is:

4 slices tomato on a bed of shredded lettuce.  On two of the slices, pile
shaved celery, on the other two, finely cut watercress.  Garnish with
small pieces of tomato shaped with circular cutter and serve with French
dressing.

There is some question as to what or how this has to do with
"Hindoo."  Barry, any clues?  Something to think about while you're
walking around the block!

Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 14 22:29:16 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:29:16 -0500
Subject: children's chants--Rise SAlly
In-Reply-To: <E1D0hZD-0004qa-00@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.172916.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 14, 2005, at 9:51 AM, Ed Keer wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Ed Keer <edkeer at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: children's chants--Rise SAlly
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Leadbelly recorded a version of this in the 40s as
> Little Sally Walker.

This sort of thing used to be quite common. Even as recently as the
'60's, a version of "Here We Go Looby-Loo" was recorded by Robert "Bob
B. Soxx" Breen (a fellow St. Louisan) & The Blue Jeans as "Here We Go
Loop-de-Loop." Around the same time, a recording was made of "Putting
and Ta'en," "Putnin-Tane," "Puddin-Tane," or however you may remember
it from your childhood.

-Wilson Gray

>
> It's on this release: Party songs/Sings and Plays
>
> http://www.oldies.com/product/view.cfm/id_56092.html
>
> Probably recorded it elsewhere as well.
>
>
> --- Maggie Thompson <mthom at RCN.COM> wrote:
>
>> I remember from my grade-school days (1948-54) a
>> playground game that
>> featured the chant about "Sally."  The kids formed a
>> circle, "Sally"
>> crouched in the middle, and the circle kids chanted:
>>
>> little Sally Ann
>> Sitting in the sand
>> Crying, crying,
>> For a young man.
>>
>> (the kid playing "Sally" would pretend to cry)
>>
>> Rise, Sally, rise
>> Wipe your crying eyes.
>> Turn to the east and
>> Turn to the west and
>> Turn to the one that
>> You love best.
>>
>> ("Sally" would act this out, pick another kid, who
>> then went into the middle
>> and it all started over.)
>>
>> There may have been more to this, but I don't
>> remember it.  I grew up in
>> Elizabeth, PA, about 15 miles from Pittsburgh, by
>> the way.
>>
>> Maggie Thompson
>>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
> http://my.yahoo.com
>


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Feb 14 23:14:00 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:14:00 +0000
Subject: the big picture
In-Reply-To: <200502142229.j1EMTNEW012020@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.231400.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OK, so what's so difficult that fellow logophiles can't help someone out who
has no online access to serious dictionaries to find out the earliest
reference to 'the big picture' or 'looney bin'?

Is it because I email from the UK and you are the ADS?

Hey, c'mon! I wade through 150 of your emails each weekend just to see if
there's anything relevant to my topic (sexual slang).

-Neil Crawford


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 14 23:36:40 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:36:40 -0800
Subject: the big picture
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.153640.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Neither is recorded before the 1940s, according to OED.  My own research is consistent with the OED's findings.

JL

neil <neil at TYPOG.CO.UK> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: neil
Subject: the big picture
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, so what's so difficult that fellow logophiles can't help someone out who
has no online access to serious dictionaries to find out the earliest
reference to 'the big picture' or 'looney bin'?

Is it because I email from the UK and you are the ADS?

Hey, c'mon! I wade through 150 of your emails each weekend just to see if
there's anything relevant to my topic (sexual slang).

-Neil Crawford

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Feb 15 00:07:07 2005
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:07:07 EST
Subject: "Swing Low, (Sweet) Chariot" (1871, 1872); "Roll, Jordan,
 Roll" ( > 1863)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.190707.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated  Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:21:56 -0500,  Bapopik at AOL.COM writes
or quotes:

>  (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
>  Schools for Contrabands.
>  Arthur's Home Magazine (1861-1870). Philadelphia: Nov 1863. Vol. 22, Iss.
5;
> p. 208 (5 pages)   Pg. 209:
>  The prevalent song, however, heard in every school, in church, and by the
> way-side, is that of "John Brown," which very much amuses our white
soldiers,
> particularly when the singers roll out,--
>
>  "We'll hang Jeff Davis on a sour apple tree!"
>
>  Other songs of the negroes are common, as, "The Wrestling Jacob," "Down in
> the lonesome valley," "Roll, Jordan, roll," "Heab'n shall-a be my home."
> Russell's "Diary" gives an account of these songs, as he heard them in his
> evening row over Broad River, on his way to Trescot's estate.

This implies "We'll hang Jeff Davis..." is an African-American song, both
because of the word "Contrabands" [escaped slaves] and the words "Other songs of
the negroes".

According to Bruce Catton _Mr. Lincoln's Army_ Garden City NJ: Dolphin Books,
1951, page 53 of the undated Dolphin paperback
<begin quote>
During its training-camp days the 12th [Massachusetts Regiment] had been
stationed at Fort Warren, in Boston Harbor, where the 2nd U.S. Infantry was also
stationed; and the regulars [i.e. the soliders of the 2nd Infantry] had picked
up a snappy tune---a camp-meeting revival hymn, written in Charleston, South
Carolina, around 1850, entitled "Say Brothers WIll We Meet You Over on the
Other Shore?"  What a battalion of U.S. regulars was doing knowing a gospel hymn
is beyond imagination, but they did know it, and because it was a fine song to
march to they had fitted new words to it: "John Brown's body lies a-mouldering
in the grave . . ."
<end quote>

Catton gives as his source _History of the 12th Massachusetts Volunteers_, by
Lieutenant Colonel Benjamin F. Cook.

As far as I know, in the 1850's camp-meeting revivals were attended by
whites, which makes it seem unlikely that the author (or folk authours?) of the
original tune was African-American.

      - James A. Landau


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Feb 15 02:00:25 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:00:25 -0500
Subject: the big picture
In-Reply-To: <20050214233640.66913.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.210025.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

N'archive shows "loony bin" from 1935.

-- Doug Wilson


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Feb 15 03:23:48 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:23:48 -0500
Subject: the big picture
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.222348.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Crawford,

You didn't receive my e-mail to you sent directly?  So, I didn't get to
the library yet.  So, sue me!  The earliest dictionary evidence, as I
said, was 1919 (OED).

Sorry, if I sound annoyed.

Barnhart at highlands.com

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Monday, February 14,
2005 at 6:14 PM -0500 wrote:
>
>OK, so what's so difficult that fellow logophiles can't help someone out
>who
>has no online access to serious dictionaries to find out the earliest
>reference to 'the big picture' or 'looney bin'?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Feb 15 03:55:33 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:55:33 -0500
Subject: Re-Invent the Wheel (1964); NYC Subway Express/Local Anecdote
 (1913)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.225533.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RE-INVENT THE WHEEL

Fred got to JSTOR before I did. OED didn't check? Some more of interest.

Also the two below, from JSTOR. The 1933 hit came up for "reinvent the wheel," but I didn't see that exact wording.

(JSTOR)
Review: [untitled review]
Author(s) of Review: Judith Shatnoff
Reviewed Work(s): Woman in the Dunes (Suna No Onna) by Hiroshi Teshigahara
Film Quarterly > Vol. 18, No. 2 (Winter, 1964), pp. 43-46
Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0015-1386%28196424%2918%3A2%3C43%3AWITD%28N%3E2.0.CO%3B2-4
Citation | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation

Pg. 45:
What we have here is a monumental effort to reconcile science with philosophy; that is, to affirm science in human terms, as a tool, even if it means metaphorically reducing the context of life to a level--to a sandpit--in which it is possible, metaphorically, to re-invent the wheel.


Case Law and Stare Decisis: Concerning "Prajudizienrecht in Amerika"
Max Radin
Columbia Law Review > Vol. 33, No. 2 (Feb., 1933), pp. 199-212
Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0010-1958%28193302%2933%3A2%3C199%3ACLASDC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-B
Citation | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation

Pg. 200: The law has already been discovered by a man better fit to find it out. It is certainly futile to rediscover America or to reinvent the steam engine.

--------------------------------------------------------------
NYC SUBWAY EXPRESS/LOCAL ANECDOTE

I'll probably add this to my web site.


A TREASURY OF AMERICAN ANECDOTES
edited by B. A. Botkin
New York: Random House
1957

[From GREENWICH VILLAGE, TODAY & YESTERDAY (1949), pp. 25-26--ed.]

Pg. 186: _Chinese Philosopher in the Subway_
[Said] the Chinese diplomat and philosopher, Li Hung-chang, [on his visit to New York in 1896], when his official guide hurried him off one subway train into another a few feet away, "Why do we change?

"Oh, that train was a local."

"And what is this?"

"This is an express. It makes no stops till we reach Grand Central. We save six minutes."

A pause.

"And what," asked Ambassador Li, "are we going to do with that six minutes?


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
19 October 1913, Washington Post, pg. MS4:
_WHY SAVE SO MUCH TIME?_
[Harper's Magazine]

In no other metropolis of the world are similar expenditures contemplated for traffic purposes, and here one touches elemental reasons. Not only is the physical conformation of New York without a parallel, but nowehre else may be found a public so dominantly insistent, so temperamentally avaricious, on the subject of time. Moments spent in transit must be cut down to the irreducible minimum, no matter what prodigality of the same fleeting commodity may ensue. To illuminate this consider an actual occurrence. An Englishman who recently droped in at a friend's office on Twenty-seventh street was asked to dine. At the nearest subway station they took a local train to the Grand Central, there dived across the platform in an express, which disgorged them at Seventy-second street, where they entered another local that finally deposited them at the door of the Gothamite's apartment on Broadway and Seventy-ninth street. Followed then a smoke, a refreshing drink, and a most leisurely dinner. Halfway through his dessert, the Briton looked at his best.

"I've been wondering why we took three trains to get here?

Why? Wcsavedfor minutes!"

The Briton pondered. "I say," he questioned, thoughtfully, "what are you going to do with them?


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Feb 15 05:29:41 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:29:41 -0500
Subject: The Worms Crawled Out, the Worms Crawled In
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.002941.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        You may recall that we earlier discussed "The worms they crept in, and the worms they crept out," from the poem Alonzo the Brave and Fair Imogine, by Matthew Gregory Lewis (1796), and the apparently related line, "The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out," from a children's poem usually called The Hearse Song or The Infirmary Song.  The natural supposition is that the children's poem, which exists in many forms, was influenced by the 1796 poem.  However, I have recently come across an 1810 children's poem that includes the line about the worms crawling, and it may well be that the children's poem is older and influenced Lewis.  The children's poem, of course, was collected, not written, in 1810; it is older than that, though exactly how much older it is impossible to say.  This is from The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes 260 - 61 (I. & P. Opie 1951), citing Gammer Gurton's Garland (1810):

<<There was a lady all skin and bone,
Sure such a lady was never known:
It happened upon a certain day,
This lady went to church to pray.

When she came to the church stile,
There she did rest a little while;
When she came to the church yard,
There the bells so loud she heard.

When she came to the church door,
She stopped to rest a little more;
When she came the church within,
The parson prayed 'gainst pride and sin.

On looking up, on looking down,
She saw a dead man on the ground;
And from his nose unto his chin,
The worms crawled out, the worms crawled in.

Then she unto the parson said,
Shall I be so when I am dead?
O yes! O yes, the parson said,
You will be so when you are dead.

_Here the lady screams._>>


John Baker


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Feb 15 05:14:01 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:14:01 -0500
Subject: huffing and puffing
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.001401.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Surely you remember the Big Bad Wolf, who huffed and he puffed and he blew the house in of the first two little pigs.  The Three Little Pigs dates back at least to the 1840s.  That said, I should note that neither Making of America database has "huffing and puffing," and I did not find it on Westlaw before 1969, so it is not certain that the phrase had moved from the fairy tale to general use by the mid-Victorian period.  I would say that the book's use of the phrase is suspicious, but by no means dispositive.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of neil
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 4:37 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: huffing and puffing


I have been lent a book titled '61 Pimlico', supposedly the journal of one
mid-Victorian photographer named Henry Haylor (ed Bill Jay, Nazraeli Press,
Tucson, 1998).

I strongly suspect that it is  fabrication. However, the following sentence
caught my eye, and I wondered if anyone has any evidence of early use of the
phrase 'huffing and puffing'.

'We talked for hours, each of us huffing and puffing away like noisy steam
engines on different tracks until, in the middle of my most eloquent, and
pompous, tirades she closed my mouth with hers.'

-Neil Crawford


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Feb 15 05:15:11 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:15:11 -0500
Subject: huffing and puffing+
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.001511.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Merriam-Webster has "workout" from about 1894.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of neil
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 5:28 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: huffing and puffing+


Me again:

'Prince [of Wales - topical, or what?] or no I was primed for a quick
work-out with this bouncing beauty there and then.' - Ibid, 50

? earliest date for 'work-out'.

-Neil Crawford


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Feb 15 06:24:13 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:24:13 -0500
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.012413.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NEW YORK CITY FOLKLORE
edited by B. A. Botkin
New York: Random House
1956

Pg. 4:
"Here's where we change to the express; we save five minutes."
"What are you going to do with them?"
[From NEW YORK AND THE STATE IT'S IN (1949) by Keith Jennison--ed.]

--------------------------------------------------------------
A TREASURY OF AMERICAN FOLKLORE
edited by B. A. Botkin
New York: Crown Publishers
1944

Pg. 768:
Knife and fork!
Bottle and cork!
That's the way to
Spell New York!

Pg. 779:
Whistling girls and crowing hens
Alway come to some bad ends.

Pg. 783:
Sam, Sam,
The dirty man,
Washed his face in a frying-pan,
Combed his hair with the back of a chair,
And danced with the toothache in the air.

My son John is a nice old man,
Washed his face in a frying-pan,
Combed his hair with a wagon-wheel,
And died with the toothache in his heel.

Pg. 790:
See a pin and pick it up,
All that day you will have luck;
See a pin and let it lay,
You'll have bad luck all that day.

Pg. 793:
Apples, peaches, creamery butter,
Here's the name of my true lover.

Pg. 795:
Betty, Betty, stumped her toe
On the way to Mexico;
On the way back she broke her back
Sliding on the railroad track.

Pg. 798:
Bless the meat,
Damn the skin,
Open your mouth
And cram it in.

Pg. 799:
If you don't like my apples,
Then don't shake my tree;
I'm not your boy friend,
He's after me.

Pg. 800:
First comes love,
Then comes marriage,
Then comes Edith
With a baby carriage.


LAY OF THE LAST MINSTREL
By HORACE REYNOLDS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 6, 1938. p. 175 (1 page)
Lasses is ushering out minstrelsy in person. FOr three years he was with Field. I've seen him stop Field's shopw, taking fifteen encoures, with his "If You Don't Like My Peaches, Don't Shake My Tree."


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb 15 06:53:07 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:53:07 -0500
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
In-Reply-To: <E1D0w89-0003nq-00@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.015307.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 15, 2005, at 1:24 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and
> more
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> Pg. 790:
> See a pin and pick it up,
> _All that day you will have luck_;
> See a pin and let it lay,
> You'll have bad luck all that day.

All the day you'll have good luck

>
>
> Pg. 795:
> Betty, Betty, stumped her toe
> On the way to Mexico;
> On the way back she broke her back
> Sliding on the railroad track.

"... _stumped_ her toe" and not "... _stubbed_ her toe"?

Is this of BE or other Southern origin?

>
> Pg. 799:
> If you don't like my apples,
> Then don't shake my tree;
> I'm not your boy friend,
> He's after me.

These versions with "apples" instead of "peaches" are really strange.
And, in this particular case, the latter two lines make no sense when
combined with the first two.

Or, maybe, it's simply beyond my experience.

-Wilson Gray


From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Tue Feb 15 09:07:26 2005
From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:07:26 -0000
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
In-Reply-To: <1EC85EF2.60F3B62B.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.090726.0000.>

Barry Popik wrote:

> See a pin and pick it up,
> All that day you will have luck;
> See a pin and let it lay,
> You'll have bad luck all that day.

I prefer the version of the BBC Radio "I'm Sorry, I'll Read That
Again" team from 1967:

See a pin and pick it up,
And all that day, you'll have a pin ...

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <wordseditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 15 12:39:17 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 04:39:17 -0800
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.043917.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"See a PENNY, pick it up,
All the day you'll have good luck."

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 15, 2005, at 1:24 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and
> more
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> Pg. 790:
> See a pin and pick it up,
> _All that day you will have luck_;
> See a pin and let it lay,
> You'll have bad luck all that day.

All the day you'll have good luck

>
>
> Pg. 795:
> Betty, Betty, stumped her toe
> On the way to Mexico;
> On the way back she broke her back
> Sliding on the railroad track.

"... _stumped_ her toe" and not "... _stubbed_ her toe"?

Is this of BE or other Southern origin?

>
> Pg. 799:
> If you don't like my apples,
> Then don't shake my tree;
> I'm not your boy friend,
> He's after me.

These versions with "apples" instead of "peaches" are really strange.
And, in this particular case, the latter two lines make no sense when
combined with the first two.

Or, maybe, it's simply beyond my experience.

-Wilson Gray


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 The all-new My Yahoo! � What will yours do?


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Feb 15 14:55:39 2005
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:55:39 EST
Subject: Re-Invent the Wheel (1964); NYC Subway Express/Local Anecdote
 (1913)
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.095539.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated  Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:55:33 -0500,  Bapopik at AOL.COM
quotes:

>  A TREASURY OF AMERICAN ANECDOTES
>  edited by B. A. Botkin
>  New York: Random House
>  1957
>
>  [From GREENWICH VILLAGE, TODAY & YESTERDAY (1949), pp. 25-26--ed.]
>
>  Pg. 186: _Chinese Philosopher in the Subway_
>  [Said] the Chinese diplomat and philosopher, Li Hung-chang, [on his visit
to
> New York in 1896], when his official guide hurried him off one subway train
> into another a few feet away, "Why do we change?

This anecdote is suspect, at least as to the date, because the first "subway"
(the IRT line from City Hall to 145th Street) did not open until October 27,
1904.  If the incident described happened in 1896, then it occurred on the
"El".  The first elevated railroad or "El" in New York was opened in 1870.  The
Els used steam power until 1900, but did have express and local trains well
before 1896.

      - James A. Landau


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 15 15:25:44 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:25:44 -0500
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
In-Reply-To: <1EC85EF2.60F3B62B.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.102544.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:24 AM -0500 2/15/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>Pg. 799:
>If you don't like my apples,
>Then don't shake my tree;
>I'm not your boy friend,
>He's after me.
>

The first couplet above (but not the second one*) has been a staple
in blues (and folk, and occasionally rock) songs for ages--well
before '44, I'd wager.  I've always assumed a direct physical
allusion here for the peaches and the tree, whether or not that
assumption is warranted, and as a result it seems odd to me when a
woman sings the relevant verse (from the perspective of a woman, that
is).  Of course, I can reconstruct a plausible referent for the
peaches in that case, but then the tree stumps me.

L

More frequent:

If you don't like my peaches,
Don't shake my tree
Stay out of my orchard
Let those peaches be.

or words to that effect


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Feb 15 15:37:53 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:37:53 -0500
Subject: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.103753.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Perhaps you database-searching guys will have better luck on
this. I'm looking for an example of _penny_ referring to a
U.S. government-issued one-cent coin, antedating 1831.  I am
aware that in the colonial period, and for some time
thereafter (until the U.S. developed the ability to mint
sufficient coinage for itself), the U.S. used British-issued
coin, and during this time, the word _penny_ was used in
America to refer to a British penny. But I'm looking for a
U.S. one.

Thanks. A correspondent at the American Numismatic Association
is absolutely sure that the term would have been in use
decades before 1831, but didn't have any examples at hand.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Feb 15 16:30:44 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:30:44 -0800
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
In-Reply-To: <1EC85EF2.60F3B62B.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.083044.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:24 AM -0500 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> Sam, Sam,
> The dirty man,
> Washed his face in a frying-pan,
> Combed his hair with the back of a chair,
> And danced with the toothache in the air.
>
> My son John is a nice old man,
> Washed his face in a frying-pan,
> Combed his hair with a wagon-wheel,
> And died with the toothache in his heel.

What are these verses, exactly, and the others quoted?  Some sound like
children's rhymes, but I know part of the second version of this one as
part of the song Old Dan Tucker.  I only remember that Old Dan Tucker
combed his hair with a wagon wheel, and as I understood it at the time,
died with a toothpick in his heel.  He probably washed his face in a frying
pan, but I wouldn't swear to it this many years later.  The chorus was:

Git out the way, Old Dan Tucker,
(repeat 2x)
You're too late to git your supper.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From bjv6xc at UMR.EDU  Tue Feb 15 17:24:00 2005
From: bjv6xc at UMR.EDU (Van Vertloo, Brian J. (UMR-Student))
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:24:00 -0600
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.112400.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As I recall, Mr. Tucker did indeed clean his countenance in a frying pan.  I don't remember anything about a toothpick, though...
 
Old Dan Tucker was a mighty man,
Washed his face in a frying pan,
Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
Had a toothache in his heel.
 
[Chorus]
Get out the way, ....etc.
 
I sang this song in grade school some 12 years ago; they may have left the death part out of the verse for the childrens' sake.

--On Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:24 AM -0500 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> Sam, Sam,
> The dirty man,
> Washed his face in a frying-pan,
> Combed his hair with the back of a chair,
> And danced with the toothache in the air.
>
> My son John is a nice old man,
> Washed his face in a frying-pan,
> Combed his hair with a wagon-wheel,
> And died with the toothache in his heel.

What are these verses, exactly, and the others quoted?  Some sound like
children's rhymes, but I know part of the second version of this one as
part of the song Old Dan Tucker.  I only remember that Old Dan Tucker
combed his hair with a wagon wheel, and as I understood it at the time,
died with a toothpick in his heel.  He probably washed his face in a frying
pan, but I wouldn't swear to it this many years later.  The chorus was:

Git out the way, Old Dan Tucker,
(repeat 2x)
You're too late to git your supper.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From jprucher at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 15 18:30:55 2005
From: jprucher at YAHOO.COM (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:30:55 -0800
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.103055.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>
> At 1:24 AM -0500 2/15/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> >Pg. 799:
> >If you don't like my apples,
> >Then don't shake my tree;
> >I'm not your boy friend,
> >He's after me.
> >
>
> The first couplet above (but not the second one*) has been a staple
> in blues (and folk, and occasionally rock) songs for ages--well
> before '44, I'd wager.  I've always assumed a direct physical
> allusion here for the peaches and the tree, whether or not that
> assumption is warranted, and as a result it seems odd to me when a
> woman sings the relevant verse (from the perspective of a woman, that
> is).  Of course, I can reconstruct a plausible referent for the
> peaches in that case, but then the tree stumps me.
>

I've always associated these tree/fruit references with the Song of Songs (here
in the KJV):

7:7
This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes.

7:8
I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof:
now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy
nose like apples;

Whether or not any of the blues etc. uses allude to this directly is not
something I can say, but clearly it's symbolism that's been around for awhile.
(Although it rather seems that the palm tree/grape thing is something of a
mixed metaphor, but who am I to argue with Solomon?)

Jeff Prucher



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Feb 15 18:32:31 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:32:31 -0800
Subject: Oops!
In-Reply-To: <1593078360.1108456244@[10.218.201.228]>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.103231.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I apologize for "introducing the subject" of Old Dan Tucker when, as I see
after catching up with some old e-mail, it's already been covered
extensively.

While I'm in mea culpa mode, I might as well correct a spelling error in an
earlier post on "a nickel a shtickel."  It should have been "Stückerl," not
*"Stückrl."

PMc

--On Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:30 AM -0800 "Peter A. McGraw"
<pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:

> --On Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:24 AM -0500 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>> Sam, Sam,
>> The dirty man,
>> Washed his face in a frying-pan,
>> Combed his hair with the back of a chair,
>> And danced with the toothache in the air.
>>
>> My son John is a nice old man,
>> Washed his face in a frying-pan,
>> Combed his hair with a wagon-wheel,
>> And died with the toothache in his heel.
>
> What are these verses, exactly, and the others quoted?  Some sound like
> children's rhymes, but I know part of the second version of this one as
> part of the song Old Dan Tucker.  I only remember that Old Dan Tucker
> combed his hair with a wagon wheel, and as I understood it at the time,
> died with a toothpick in his heel.  He probably washed his face in a
> frying pan, but I wouldn't swear to it this many years later.  The chorus
> was:
>
> Git out the way, Old Dan Tucker,
> (repeat 2x)
> You're too late to git your supper.
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> *****************************************************************
> Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Feb 15 19:35:23 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:35:23 -0500
Subject: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.143523.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Jesse (et al.),

As I am sure you are aware, foreign currency was used in the U.S. until
the 1850's.  Therefore, it will prove difficult to ascertain the source of
the penny in many quotations, would it not?

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Tuesday, February 15,
2005 at 10:37 AM  wrote:


>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>
>Subject:      "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Perhaps you database-searching guys will have better luck on
>this. I'm looking for an example of _penny_ referring to a
>U.S. government-issued one-cent coin, antedating 1831.  I am
>aware that in the colonial period, and for some time
>thereafter (until the U.S. developed the ability to mint
>sufficient coinage for itself), the U.S. used British-issued
>coin, and during this time, the word _penny_ was used in
>America to refer to a British penny. But I'm looking for a
>U.S. one.
>
>Thanks. A correspondent at the American Numismatic Association
>is absolutely sure that the term would have been in use
>decades before 1831, but didn't have any examples at hand.
>
>Jesse Sheidlower
>OED
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Feb 15 19:37:00 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:37:00 -0500
Subject: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e01cfcff13b9aca00011eaf72.1cfd014@chain.highlands.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.143700.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 02:35:23PM -0500, Barnhart wrote:
> Dear Jesse (et al.),
>
> As I am sure you are aware, foreign currency was used in the U.S. until
> the 1850's.  Therefore, it will prove difficult to ascertain the source of
> the penny in many quotations, would it not?

Yes. That's why I'm having trouble....

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Feb 15 20:02:40 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:02:40 -0600
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.140240.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn
> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 9:26 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree
> (1944) and more
>
>
> At 1:24 AM -0500 2/15/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> >Pg. 799:
> >If you don't like my apples,
> >Then don't shake my tree;
> >I'm not your boy friend,
> >He's after me.
> >
>
> The first couplet above (but not the second one*) has been a
> staple in blues (and folk, and occasionally rock) songs for
> ages--well before '44, I'd wager.

I can find it back to "PIPELINER BLUES No. 2" (written by: Moon
Mullican, 1941).

See also "Squeeze my lemon til the juice run down my leg"
from Travellin Riverside Blues by Robert Johnson, 1937.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb 15 20:03:33 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:03:33 -0500
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
In-Reply-To: <E1D14a4-0000sn-00@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.150333.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 15, 2005, at 10:25 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944)
> and more
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 1:24 AM -0500 2/15/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>> Pg. 799:
>> If you don't like my apples,
>> Then don't shake my tree;
>> I'm not your boy friend,
>> He's after me.
>>
>
> The first couplet above (but not the second one*) has been a staple
> in blues (and folk, and occasionally rock) songs for ages--well
> before '44, I'd wager.  I've always assumed a direct physical
> allusion here for the peaches and the tree, whether or not that
> assumption is warranted, and as a result it seems odd to me when a
> woman sings the relevant verse (from the perspective of a woman, that
> is).  Of course, I can reconstruct a plausible referent for the
> peaches in that case, but then the tree stumps me.
>
> L
>
> More frequent:
>
> If you don't like my peaches,
> Don't shake my tree
> Stay out of my orchard
> Let those peaches be.
>
> or words to that effect
>

And, of course, it's also a staple of R&B. For example, here's a verse
from a song sung from the male point of view. It was popular du'in' the
Ko-Rean Waw:

Well, you're the cutest thing
That I did ever see
I really love your peaches
Gonna shake your tree

Chorus:

Lovey-dovey
Lovey-dovey all the time

Does it remind you of someone who eventually decided to fly like an
eagle to the sea? And BTW, does anyone besides me remember the duet,
Peaches & Herb? They had a certain amount of cross-over success, as I
recall. If HDAS is ever completed, it may become impossible to slip
this kind of thing past the censors. "Peaches and herb"? How could
anyone miss that reference?

-Wilson


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Feb 15 20:06:23 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:06:23 -0600
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.140623.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> And, of course, it's also a staple of R&B. For example,
> here's a verse from a song sung from the male point of view.
> It was popular du'in' the Ko-Rean Waw:
>
> Well, you're the cutest thing
> That I did ever see
> I really love your peaches
> Gonna shake your tree
>
> Chorus:
>
> Lovey-dovey
> Lovey-dovey all the time
>
> Does it remind you of someone who eventually decided to fly
> like an eagle to the sea?

And who was the victim of one of the STUPIDEST bowdlerizations of all
time:

"Funky kicks going down in the city" for
"Funky shit going down in the city".

1970's commercial radio was _so_ edgy.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Feb 15 20:24:23 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:24:23 -0500
Subject: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.152423.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The following refers to a hypothetical or rhetorical coin, but still:
Hickory sold this morning for Five Dollars, and Oak for Four and a Half
a load, about one third higher than at any time during the past severe
winter months. . . . we have witnessed a shameful monopoly in this
article, carried on by certain persons: An odious proceeding that
causes extensive distress among the poor of our city by wringing from
them their last penny for the purchase of a single stick.  New-York
Evening Post, April 4, 1807, p. 2, col. 5

Also:
"My name is De Grass Griffin -- I am ten years old --  my father is a
boatman in Killingsworth, Connecticut  --  my mother left there for
Philadelphia last summer -- she parted from my father -- he don't take
care of me.  [He went to Philadelphia looking for his mother.]  When I
got there I found that she was dead -- I remained there, going about
town for about a week -- I then started to come back.  A gentleman in
Philadelphia gave me a twenty cent piece and eleven-penny bit, and a
five-penny bit --  I have the twenty cent piece yet.  I got into this
town yesterday morning -- had nothing to eat yesterday till in the
evening, when I got some clams at a little stand near the river.  I
calculate to start for home this morning, and to get a stage driver to
give me a ride."  Commercial Advertiser, January 18, 1821, p. 2, col. 1.
This is from the story told to an NYC magistrate by a wandering boy.


The great difficulty he meets with, is in procuring persons to come
forward as witnesses, although scores of poor people could testify to
the facts, if it were not for the reluctance they feel at the supposed
disgrace they should incur by being pointed at as common informers.
But let those greater offenders, who hire the petty rogues by giving
them ten percent of the profit to procure these insurances during the
day, and late at night make over the book to them, let these be watched
and severely punished.  I am informed that at some of the insurance
offices even a penny premium is taken from the lowest of their
customers.  New-York Evening Post, February 16, 1818, p. 2, col. ?
This refers to the practice of "policy" gambling.  There were various
legal lotteries at the time, all requiring a fairly costly bet.  The
numbers brokers (in modern terms) sold supposed insurance policies
against the possibility of a certain number being drawn.


The letter was delivered to Mr. Hopson by the penny post, yesterday.
New=York Enquirer, June 4, 1828, p. 2, col. 1


These are the only occurences of "penny" in my notes, mostly from NYC
newspapers, through 1830.  1500+ pages.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Feb 15 20:36:08 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:36:08 -0500
Subject: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.153608.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I took a look at the older Westlaw cases.  There are frequent uses of English and American money in the same discussions.  I don't have any doubt that George's 1807, 1821, and 1818 citations refer (literally or rhetorically) to the English penny.  The 1828 citation might be to the American cent - we need to know whether the cost of the post was one cent or one English penny, or if there was some other reason why it was called the penny post.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of George Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 3:24 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?


The following refers to a hypothetical or rhetorical coin, but still:
Hickory sold this morning for Five Dollars, and Oak for Four and a Half
a load, about one third higher than at any time during the past severe
winter months. . . . we have witnessed a shameful monopoly in this
article, carried on by certain persons: An odious proceeding that
causes extensive distress among the poor of our city by wringing from
them their last penny for the purchase of a single stick.  New-York
Evening Post, April 4, 1807, p. 2, col. 5

Also:
"My name is De Grass Griffin -- I am ten years old --  my father is a
boatman in Killingsworth, Connecticut  --  my mother left there for
Philadelphia last summer -- she parted from my father -- he don't take
care of me.  [He went to Philadelphia looking for his mother.]  When I
got there I found that she was dead -- I remained there, going about
town for about a week -- I then started to come back.  A gentleman in
Philadelphia gave me a twenty cent piece and eleven-penny bit, and a
five-penny bit --  I have the twenty cent piece yet.  I got into this
town yesterday morning -- had nothing to eat yesterday till in the
evening, when I got some clams at a little stand near the river.  I
calculate to start for home this morning, and to get a stage driver to
give me a ride."  Commercial Advertiser, January 18, 1821, p. 2, col. 1.
This is from the story told to an NYC magistrate by a wandering boy.


The great difficulty he meets with, is in procuring persons to come
forward as witnesses, although scores of poor people could testify to
the facts, if it were not for the reluctance they feel at the supposed
disgrace they should incur by being pointed at as common informers.
But let those greater offenders, who hire the petty rogues by giving
them ten percent of the profit to procure these insurances during the
day, and late at night make over the book to them, let these be watched
and severely punished.  I am informed that at some of the insurance
offices even a penny premium is taken from the lowest of their
customers.  New-York Evening Post, February 16, 1818, p. 2, col. ?
This refers to the practice of "policy" gambling.  There were various
legal lotteries at the time, all requiring a fairly costly bet.  The
numbers brokers (in modern terms) sold supposed insurance policies
against the possibility of a certain number being drawn.


The letter was delivered to Mr. Hopson by the penny post, yesterday.
New=York Enquirer, June 4, 1828, p. 2, col. 1


These are the only occurences of "penny" in my notes, mostly from NYC
newspapers, through 1830.  1500+ pages.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb 15 20:49:51 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:49:51 -0500
Subject: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
In-Reply-To: <E1D19Jm-0003eu-01@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.154951.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 15, 2005, at 3:24 PM, George Thompson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The great difficulty he meets with, is in procuring persons to come
> forward as witnesses, although scores of poor people could testify to
> the facts, if it were not for the reluctance they feel at the supposed
> disgrace they should incur by being pointed at as common informers.

"... the ... disgrace [of] being pointed at as common informers"

So, even as far back as at least 1818, no one wanted to gain the street
reputation of being someone who would "eat cheese on" [mid-'60's Los
Angeles] someone to the authorities.

-Wilson Gray


> But let those greater offenders, who hire the petty rogues by giving
> them ten percent of the profit to procure these insurances during the
> day, and late at night make over the book to them, let these be watched
> and severely punished.  I am informed that at some of the insurance
> offices even a penny premium is taken from the lowest of their
> customers.  New-York Evening Post, February 16, 1818, p. 2, col. ?
> This refers to the practice of "policy" gambling.  There were various
> legal lotteries at the time, all requiring a fairly costly bet.  The
> numbers brokers (in modern terms) sold supposed insurance policies
> against the possibility of a certain number being drawn.
>
>
> The letter was delivered to Mr. Hopson by the penny post, yesterday.
> New=York Enquirer, June 4, 1828, p. 2, col. 1
>
>
> These are the only occurences of "penny" in my notes, mostly from NYC
> newspapers, through 1830.  1500+ pages.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Feb 15 22:05:14 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:05:14 -0500
Subject: fake & filch
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.170514.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

fake, as a noun:

This one is kinda neat.
The New-York Gazette & General Advertiser, May 11, 1807, p. 3, col. 2,
printed an announcement of a marriage.  Someone wrote next to
it "wrong: a fake".  And indeed, the next day's paper carried an angry
retraction: if we knew who had imposed on us, he should be publicly
chastized.

OED has (under noun2, an act of faking, &c.), 1827; as adj., 1775, 1890
(!); HDAS: has 3b, a fals rumor or false story, mid-19th century.

filch, as a noun meaning a thief:
        Last Saturday Darcus, the rascal, who stole his Excellency
Governor Tryon's silver cups as advertised in this paper, was brought
to town from New-Haven, where he was apprehended: this same Filch had
likewise been tolerably successful about the house of our late
commander in chief. . . .
        Rivington's New-York Gazetteer, July 15, 1773, p. 2, cols. 3-4

OED: (noun, sense 3, One who filches or steals: a filcher. Obs.) 1775 &
1810 (only citations); not in HDAS in this sense.
"Filch" is capitalized in this passage, although this paper did not
routinely capitalize all nouns, unlike other mid-century papers.  This
makes me wonder whether the editor had in mind the name of a thievish
character in some play or novel, but I haven't been able to find one,
in a quick check.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Feb 15 23:47:41 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:47:41 -0500
Subject: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.184741.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My philatelic background says the "penny post" was a strictly English term.
As the resident numismatist on the board(but by no means the scholar when it
comes to numismatic terms), I"ll search my library.

Sam Clements
----- Original Message -----
From: "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?


>         I took a look at the older Westlaw cases.  There are frequent uses
of English and American money in the same discussions.  I don't have any
doubt that George's 1807, 1821, and 1818 citations refer (literally or
rhetorically) to the English penny.  The 1828 citation might be to the
American cent - we need to know whether the cost of the post was one cent or
one English penny, or if there was some other reason why it was called the
penny post.
>
> John Baker
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of George Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 3:24 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
>
>
> The following refers to a hypothetical or rhetorical coin, but still:
> Hickory sold this morning for Five Dollars, and Oak for Four and a Half
> a load, about one third higher than at any time during the past severe
> winter months. . . . we have witnessed a shameful monopoly in this
> article, carried on by certain persons: An odious proceeding that
> causes extensive distress among the poor of our city by wringing from
> them their last penny for the purchase of a single stick.  New-York
> Evening Post, April 4, 1807, p. 2, col. 5
>
> Also:
> "My name is De Grass Griffin -- I am ten years old --  my father is a
> boatman in Killingsworth, Connecticut  --  my mother left there for
> Philadelphia last summer -- she parted from my father -- he don't take
> care of me.  [He went to Philadelphia looking for his mother.]  When I
> got there I found that she was dead -- I remained there, going about
> town for about a week -- I then started to come back.  A gentleman in
> Philadelphia gave me a twenty cent piece and eleven-penny bit, and a
> five-penny bit --  I have the twenty cent piece yet.  I got into this
> town yesterday morning -- had nothing to eat yesterday till in the
> evening, when I got some clams at a little stand near the river.  I
> calculate to start for home this morning, and to get a stage driver to
> give me a ride."  Commercial Advertiser, January 18, 1821, p. 2, col. 1.
> This is from the story told to an NYC magistrate by a wandering boy.
>
>
> The great difficulty he meets with, is in procuring persons to come
> forward as witnesses, although scores of poor people could testify to
> the facts, if it were not for the reluctance they feel at the supposed
> disgrace they should incur by being pointed at as common informers.
> But let those greater offenders, who hire the petty rogues by giving
> them ten percent of the profit to procure these insurances during the
> day, and late at night make over the book to them, let these be watched
> and severely punished.  I am informed that at some of the insurance
> offices even a penny premium is taken from the lowest of their
> customers.  New-York Evening Post, February 16, 1818, p. 2, col. ?
> This refers to the practice of "policy" gambling.  There were various
> legal lotteries at the time, all requiring a fairly costly bet.  The
> numbers brokers (in modern terms) sold supposed insurance policies
> against the possibility of a certain number being drawn.
>
>
> The letter was delivered to Mr. Hopson by the penny post, yesterday.
> New=York Enquirer, June 4, 1828, p. 2, col. 1
>
>
> These are the only occurences of "penny" in my notes, mostly from NYC
> newspapers, through 1830.  1500+ pages.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 16 02:22:58 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:22:58 -0800
Subject: "among" = between
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.182258.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In my whippersnapper days, teachers insisted that "among" be used incertain situations where "between" seemed to come more naturally to many speakers. For example, "A fistfight broke out between the professors" would be correct only if there were two professors involved. For three or more, "among" was the only acceptable word.  The linguistic theory, when one was advanced, was that "'between' comes from 'twain' and 'twain' means 'two.'"

The years lengthen into decades.... Now, perhaps predictably, I find an example of hypercorrectness, "among" used where only "between" should be acceptable. Indeed, to me, "between" is the only natural choice.

OED does not comment on the issue under the relevant sense of "among", "9. Of the relation of reciprocal action between [sic] the members of a group."


2003 Dale Van Blair Looking Back: A Tail Gunner's View of World War II  59 :  We were a very compatible group and I was never aware of a disagreement among any two of us.

I certainly can't recall ever noticing this usage in freshman writing. ( In the freshman writing I am familiar with, obvious hypercorrections are rare indeed.)

Besides having flown eighteen combat missions in B-24 aircraft during World War II, Dale Van Blair author is a retired high-school English teacher.

JL


---------------------------------
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From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 16 02:35:47 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:35:47 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Continental"
In-Reply-To: <200502100117.j1A1HOIn016043@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.213547.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

continental (OED 1760)

1755 John Shebbeare _A Letter to the People of England_ (ed. 2) 22
(Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  His preposterous Conduct begins,
foments and fosters a Continental War.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 16 02:40:49 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:40:49 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Thermal"
In-Reply-To: <200502100117.j1A1HOIn016043@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.214049.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

thermal (OED 1756)

1742  Meighan, Christopher, Sir. A treatise of the nature and powers of
Baregess baths and waters. 45 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  Of
the various Differences which are found in Thermal Fountains.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 16 02:45:17 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:45:17 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Avalanche"
In-Reply-To: <200502100117.j1A1HOIn016043@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.214517.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

avalanche (OED 1771)

1744  Windham, William. An account of the glacieres or ice alps in Savoy.
5 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  _Avalanches_ of Snow were
fallen.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 16 02:46:30 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:46:30 -0800
Subject: "courtesy" as preposition
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.184630.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is very common but doesn't seem to be in OED.  "By the courtesy of" has been gradually reduced to "courtesy of" and finally just "courtesy."


1944 [M/Sgt. Jules F. Segal, ed.] The Jolly Rogers : The Best Damn Heavy Bomb Unit in the World [,] Southwest Pacific 1942-1944  (rpt. Atglen, PA: Schiffer, 1997) 13 : By the time the Jolly Rogers were ready for the dragon-shaped isle of New Guinea, there were 29 vessels less in the Jap Navy, and 91 Zeros less in the Jap Air Force, courtesy this outfit alone.

JL

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From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 16 02:49:54 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:49:54 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Inorganic"
In-Reply-To: <200502100117.j1A1HOIn016043@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.214954.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

inorganic (OED 1794)

1729 Daniel Turner _A Discourse Concerning Gleets_ 81 (Eighteenth Century
Collections Online)  _Chance cannot make an Organic Body._ Nor an
_Inorganic_ neither, which if it can or cannot, is as little.

Fred Shapiro



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb 16 07:48:00 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:48:00 -0500
Subject: Change the name of Arkansas? (1910); See a pin... (1870)
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.024800.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CHANGE THE NAME OF ARKANSAS?

What is the date for the speech? 1881? What date does Fred have?

I've looked at:

American Periodical Series
Making of America
American Memory (but re-check this; it gives bad hits)
Newspaperarchive
Proquest Historical Newspapers
Brooklyn Daily Eagle
Colorado newspapers
Missouri newspapers
Utah newspapers

Where is this famous Arkansas/Arkansaw speech? Surely, it was widely reprinted within 20 years of its performance?

(GOOGLE)
http://comp.uark.edu/~sboss/hellno.htm
A legendary piece of American folklore, recounted in the book "Folklore of Romantic Arkansas" (Allsopp, 1931), relates the story of a proposal to change the name of the state of Arkansas by legislative enactment during the latter 1800’s. It is said that this question was actually introduced at a session of the Legislature, and that a member delivered a fiery speech on the subject to the assembly. "Change the name of Arkansas? Hell, No!" he is supposed to have declared. Apparently, however, investigations of state archives have failed to find any official record of such a deliverance, though it is frequently referred to at banquets and other convivial occasions where it is usually recited in wickedly lurid terms. Botkin (1944) provides two reprinted versions of the supposed famous oratory which are combined below to let the reader know how we feel about Arkansas!

(GOOGLE)
http://snafu.freedom.org/pub/arkansaw-history.html


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
HUMAN HEADS ARE EVIDENCE IN CASE; ADVENTURERS' CLUB MEMBER ACCUSED OF SEEKING FALSE REPUTATION
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 29, 1924. p. 10 (1 page):
It may have been impossible to change the name of Arkansas but it is expected that the name of South Pasadena can be changed to San Pasqual without such an outburst or oratory as attended the proposal to alter the cognomen of the Apple Blossom State.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Lima Daily News  Sunday, December 04, 1910 Lima, Ohio
...might as wen try to CHANGE THE NAME OF ARKANSAS as to send John R. to.....race in an as nay it will decidedly CHANGE THE pect OF and are thowj who..


   The Mexia Daily News  Monday, April 02, 1923 Mexia, Texas
...opposing the changing OF the NAME OF ARKANSAS has descendants living.....use the same sort OF language that the ARKANSAS solon used we will have to..


--------------------------------------------------------------
"SEE A PIN AND PICK IT UP..."

It appears that "pin" is earlier than "penny."


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
DREAM OF THE LITTLE GIRL WHO WOULD NOT PICK UP A PIN.
Mrs A M Diaz. Our Young Folks. An Illustrated Magazine for Boys and Girls (1865-1873). Boston: Mar 1870. Vol. 6, Iss. 3; p. 178 (8 pages)
First page:
"See a pin and pick it up,
All the day you'll have good luck;
See a pin and let it lie,
Come to sorrow by and by."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb 16 08:59:53 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:59:53 -0500
Subject: Shaggy Story (1929); Combed hair with wagon wheel (1931); Inquire
 within/Gin (1922)
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.035953.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

INQUIRE WITHIN/DRINKING GIN

This is a pretty popular one.

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
IN the WAKE of the NEWS; DO YOU REMEMBER WAY BACK WHEN:
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 3, 1922. p. 8 (1 page):
For Rent signs read: "Rooms for rent, inquire within, people turned out for drinking gin"?--Ginger.

(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Post Standard  Friday, August 04, 1972 Syracuse, New York
...of fifteen cents. Rooms for INQUIRE WITHIN A lady got put out For DRINKING.....et AND they a AND go to I am not a DRINKING AND I am not going to a so I..
Pg. 19, cols. 7-8:
_Readers Send Us_
_Jump Rope Ditties_

(Col. 8--ed.)
Rooms for rent,
Inquire within
A lady got put out
For drinking gin.
If she promises
To drink no more
Here's the key
To (--) door.

--------------------------------------------------------------
COMBED HIS HAIR WITH A WAGON WHEEL

I search for these "Dan Tucker" lyrics.

(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
   Singing Games oF the Southern Mountains
By CARL HOLLIDAY. Overland Monthly and Out West Magazine (1868-1935). San Francisco: Dec 1931. Vol. Vol. 89, Iss. No. 12; p. 9 (3 pages)
Second page:
Old Dan Tucker was a fine man,
He washed his face in the frying pan.
He comed (sic) his hair with a wagon wheel,
And died with a tooth-ache in his heel.
Get out of the way for Old Dan Tucker.
Get out of the way for Old Dan Tucker.

Third page:
First to the courthouse, then to jail.
Hang my hat on a rusty nail;
Oh, come along, Jim, along, Josie.
Oh, come along, Jim, along, Joe.
Nail it broke, down it fell.
Mashed my hat all to hell.
Oh, come along, Jim, along, Josie.
Oh, come along, Jim, along, Joe.

--------------------------------------------------------------
SHAGGY STORY

Botkin lists this as a "shaggy story." It's popular still. When I used to look for something, my father would remark, "Look over here. The light is better."


SIDEWALKS OF AMERICA
edited by B. A. Botkin
Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill
1954

Pg. 515:
Another famous gag of this sort and period took place between a cop and a barfly on Times Square. The cop asks the questions and the barfly answers:

What are you looking for?
I lost a ten-dollar bill on Thirty-Eight Street and Sixth Avenue.
Then what are you looking around here for?
There's more light here.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
FOOTLIGHTS AND SHADOWS
By JOHN J. DALY. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 24, 1929. p. A4 (1 page):
'TWAS a very brilliantly lighted theater, outside. Taxicabs and private cars rolling in front of the entrance-way set out their patrons at the curb. A great gathering, just before the curtain time, milled and mobbed toward the lobby. AMongst them, a man slightly under the influence of a forbidden beverage, careened and swayed, keeping his eyes, the while, focused on the pavement.

Finally, a policeman, interested, waded through the multitude, asked what the stranger was doing; looking as if he had lost something.

"I have," affirmed the man, "I lost my watch and I'm looking for it.

"You lost your watch! Where do you think you lost it?" asked the cop.

"Out in Rock Creek Park," said the man.

The officer was exasperated. "If you lost your watch in Rock Creek Park," he bellowed, "why are you looking for it here?"

"Because," explained the man, "there's more light here."


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Gazette Bulletin  Friday, April 02, 1937 Williamsport, Pennsylvania
...r "Why don't you look tHERE "THERE's MORE LIGHT HERE." NAUOtiix SPRING 1 wish.....MORE Judges in hear, MORE jto confer, MORE judges to discuss. MORE judges to..

   Frederick Post  Thursday, June 04, 1942 Frederick, Maryland
...IT TWO DOWN THE STREET.' THE LIGHT IS BETTER I'M LOOKING FOR rAV QUARTER i can.....time 32. Bundles oJ grain 33. Portable LIGHT 34. Except 25. Narrator 36..
(MUTT AND JEFF version!--ed.)

   Lima News  Monday, September 11, 1972 Lima, Ohio
...But I'd rather look here, because the LIGHT IS BETTER.' For those who warn.....that he had lost hIS keys AND was LOOKING for them. "The policeman joined..


   Daily Herald  Monday, June 13, 1988 Chicago, Illinois
...LOOKING for a lost item under a street LIGHT because the LIGHT IS BETTER even.....portfolio reg- ularly provided a BETTER return than the the small..


   Post Standard  Wednesday, February 19, 2003 Syracuse, New York
...wallet where you lost the man 'the LIGHT IS BETTER over here.'' I'm not.....friend7'' the vISitor in- quired. am LOOKING for my the other man replied..


   Chronicle Telegram  Wednesday, February 19, 2003 Elyria, Ohio
...lost "Because, the man replied, "the LIGHT IS BETTER over here. I'm not much.....on real money They are partISan AND LOOKING for a political ISsue. But they..


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Wed Feb 16 10:17:19 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:17:19 +0000
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
In-Reply-To: <200502152002.j1FK2g0m031781@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.101719.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 15/2/05 8:02 pm, Mullins, Bill at Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL wrote:


>> At 1:24 AM -0500 2/15/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>>> Pg. 799:
>>> If you don't like my apples,
>>> Then don't shake my tree;
>>> I'm not your boy friend,
>>> He's after me.
>>>
>>
>> The first couplet above (but not the second one*) has been a
>> staple in blues (and folk, and occasionally rock) songs for
>> ages--well before '44, I'd wager.
>
> I can find it back to "PIPELINER BLUES No. 2" (written by: Moon
> Mullican, 1941).
>
> See also "Squeeze my lemon til the juice run down my leg"
> from Travellin Riverside Blues by Robert Johnson, 1937.

Different lemons (and sense) can be found in:

Please let me squeeze your lemons
While I'm in your lonesome town.
Now let me squeeze your lemons, baby,
Until my love come down.
- Charlie Pickett, 'Let me squeeze your lemons', NYC, 3 August 1937


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 16 12:07:16 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:07:16 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Entomology"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502152143250.731-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.070716.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

entomology (OED 1766)

1764 _General Magazine of Arts and Sciences_ May 259 (Eighteenth Century
Collections Online)  Observations on the Animal Kingdom.  Translated from
the Latin of Dr. Linnaeus. ... I undertook to write my System of Zoology.
In the _Tetrapodology_ (or History of Quadrupeds) I have chiefly deduced
the Orders of the Animals from the Teeth ... in _Entomology_ (or the
History of Insects) from the _Antennae_ and Wings, &c.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 16 14:56:05 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:56:05 -0800
Subject: Change the name of Arkansas? (1910); See a pin... (1870)
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.065605.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To quote Michael Simmons's article online:
"According to Fred W. Allsop, in Folklore of Romantic Arkansas, (1931, The Grolier Society), Vol. 1, pp 35-36, a Concurrent Resolution of the Arkansas State Legislature in 1881 declared that the only correct pronunciation was (resolution, as quoted by Allsop):
"that received by the French from the Native Indians, and committed in writing by the French word representing the sound; and in accordance with same it should be pronounced in three syllables, with the final 's' silent, the 'a' in each syllable with the Italian sound, and the accent on the first and last syllables." "

There never was a "Sen. Cassius M. Johnson," the legislator sometimes credited with the speech.

Simmons makes the interesting suggestion that the original "speech" may have been written anonymously by Mark Twain.  Undoubtedly the topic would have appealed to him, and the style is certainly reminiscent of Twain's.

Gershon Legman discussed the speech about 30 years ago, but my copy of the article is packed up somewhere. ISTR his conclusions were the same as Simmons's.

JL



Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: Change the name of Arkansas? (1910); See a pin... (1870)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CHANGE THE NAME OF ARKANSAS?

What is the date for the speech? 1881? What date does Fred have?

I've looked at:

American Periodical Series
Making of America
American Memory (but re-check this; it gives bad hits)
Newspaperarchive
Proquest Historical Newspapers
Brooklyn Daily Eagle
Colorado newspapers
Missouri newspapers
Utah newspapers

Where is this famous Arkansas/Arkansaw speech? Surely, it was widely reprinted within 20 years of its performance?

(GOOGLE)
http://comp.uark.edu/~sboss/hellno.htm
A legendary piece of American folklore, recounted in the book "Folklore of Romantic Arkansas" (Allsopp, 1931), relates the story of a proposal to change the name of the state of Arkansas by legislative enactment during the latter 1800’s. It is said that this question was actually introduced at a session of the Legislature, and that a member delivered a fiery speech on the subject to the assembly. "Change the name of Arkansas? Hell, No!" he is supposed to have declared. Apparently, however, investigations of state archives have failed to find any official record of such a deliverance, though it is frequently referred to at banquets and other convivial occasions where it is usually recited in wickedly lurid terms. Botkin (1944) provides two reprinted versions of the supposed famous oratory which are combined below to let the reader know how we feel about Arkansas!

(GOOGLE)
http://snafu.freedom.org/pub/arkansaw-history.html


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
HUMAN HEADS ARE EVIDENCE IN CASE; ADVENTURERS' CLUB MEMBER ACCUSED OF SEEKING FALSE REPUTATION
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 29, 1924. p. 10 (1 page):
It may have been impossible to change the name of Arkansas but it is expected that the name of South Pasadena can be changed to San Pasqual without such an outburst or oratory as attended the proposal to alter the cognomen of the Apple Blossom State.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
Lima Daily News Sunday, December 04, 1910 Lima, Ohio
...might as wen try to CHANGE THE NAME OF ARKANSAS as to send John R. to.....race in an as nay it will decidedly CHANGE THE pect OF and are thowj who..


The Mexia Daily News Monday, April 02, 1923 Mexia, Texas
...opposing the changing OF the NAME OF ARKANSAS has descendants living.....use the same sort OF language that the ARKANSAS solon used we will have to..


--------------------------------------------------------------
"SEE A PIN AND PICK IT UP..."

It appears that "pin" is earlier than "penny."


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
DREAM OF THE LITTLE GIRL WHO WOULD NOT PICK UP A PIN.
Mrs A M Diaz. Our Young Folks. An Illustrated Magazine for Boys and Girls (1865-1873). Boston: Mar 1870. Vol. 6, Iss. 3; p. 178 (8 pages)
First page:
"See a pin and pick it up,
All the day you'll have good luck;
See a pin and let it lie,
Come to sorrow by and by."



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 16 15:34:51 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:34:51 -0800
Subject: Change the name of Arkansas? (1910); See a pin... (1870)
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.073451.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The University of Virginia reproduces online a poem by Emory Pottle about the death in combat of his friend James R. McConnell of the Lafayette Escadrille in 1917.  The poem, entitled "Mac," was apparently written shortly after McConnell was killed.  It includes the following lines:

Good old Mac at a party!
A party to us was something
to drink,
A fire, and no work;
Mac reciting:
"Change the name of Arkansaw?
By God, sir--"

JL


Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

To quote Michael Simmons's article online:
"According to Fred W. Allsop, in Folklore of Romantic Arkansas, (1931, The Grolier Society), Vol. 1, pp 35-36, a Concurrent Resolution of the Arkansas State Legislature in 1881 declared that the only correct pronunciation was (resolution, as quoted by Allsop):
"that received by the French from the Native Indians, and committed in writing by the French word representing the sound; and in accordance with same it should be pronounced in three syllables, with the final 's' silent, the 'a' in each syllable with the Italian sound, and the accent on the first and last syllables." "

There never was a "Sen. Cassius M. Johnson," the legislator sometimes credited with the speech.

Simmons makes the interesting suggestion that the original "speech" may have been written anonymously by Mark Twain.  Undoubtedly the topic would have appealed to him, and the style is certainly reminiscent of Twain's.

Gershon Legman discussed the speech about 30 years ago, but my copy of the article is packed up somewhere. ISTR his conclusions were the same as Simmons's.

JL



Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: Change the name of Arkansas? (1910); See a pin... (1870)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CHANGE THE NAME OF ARKANSAS?

What is the date for the speech? 1881? What date does Fred have?

I've looked at:

American Periodical Series
Making of America
American Memory (but re-check this; it gives bad hits)
Newspaperarchive
Proquest Historical Newspapers
Brooklyn Daily Eagle
Colorado newspapers
Missouri newspapers
Utah newspapers

Where is this famous Arkansas/Arkansaw speech? Surely, it was widely reprinted within 20 years of its performance?

(GOOGLE)
http://comp.uark.edu/~sboss/hellno.htm
A legendary piece of American folklore, recounted in the book "Folklore of Romantic Arkansas" (Allsopp, 1931), relates the story of a proposal to change the name of the state of Arkansas by legislative enactment during the latter 1800’s. It is said that this question was actually introduced at a session of the Legislature, and that a member delivered a fiery speech on the subject to the assembly. "Change the name of Arkansas? Hell, No!" he is supposed to have declared. Apparently, however, investigations of state archives have failed to find any official record of such a deliverance, though it is frequently referred to at banquets and other convivial occasions where it is usually recited in wickedly lurid terms. Botkin (1944) provides two reprinted versions of the supposed famous oratory which are combined below to let the reader know how we feel about Arkansas!

(GOOGLE)
http://snafu.freedom.org/pub/arkansaw-history.html


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
HUMAN HEADS ARE EVIDENCE IN CASE; ADVENTURERS' CLUB MEMBER ACCUSED OF SEEKING FALSE REPUTATION
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 29, 1924. p. 10 (1 page):
It may have been impossible to change the name of Arkansas but it is expected that the name of South Pasadena can be changed to San Pasqual without such an outburst or oratory as attended the proposal to alter the cognomen of the Apple Blossom State.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
Lima Daily News Sunday, December 04, 1910 Lima, Ohio
...might as wen try to CHANGE THE NAME OF ARKANSAS as to send John R. to.....race in an as nay it will decidedly CHANGE THE pect OF and are thowj who..


The Mexia Daily News Monday, April 02, 1923 Mexia, Texas
...opposing the changing OF the NAME OF ARKANSAS has descendants living.....use the same sort OF language that the ARKANSAS solon used we will have to..


--------------------------------------------------------------
"SEE A PIN AND PICK IT UP..."

It appears that "pin" is earlier than "penny."


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
DREAM OF THE LITTLE GIRL WHO WOULD NOT PICK UP A PIN.
Mrs A M Diaz. Our Young Folks. An Illustrated Magazine for Boys and Girls (1865-1873). Boston: Mar 1870. Vol. 6, Iss. 3; p. 178 (8 pages)
First page:
"See a pin and pick it up,
All the day you'll have good luck;
See a pin and let it lie,
Come to sorrow by and by."



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 16 17:37:11 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:37:11 -0500
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
In-Reply-To: <E1D1MFK-0001en-00@mx19.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.123711.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 16, 2005, at 5:17 AM, neil wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       neil <neil at TYPOG.CO.UK>
> Subject:      Re: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944)
> and more
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> on 15/2/05 8:02 pm, Mullins, Bill at Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL wrote:
>
>
>>> At 1:24 AM -0500 2/15/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>>>> Pg. 799:
>>>> If you don't like my apples,
>>>> Then don't shake my tree;
>>>> I'm not your boy friend,
>>>> He's after me.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The first couplet above (but not the second one*) has been a
>>> staple in blues (and folk, and occasionally rock) songs for
>>> ages--well before '44, I'd wager.
>>
>> I can find it back to "PIPELINER BLUES No. 2" (written by: Moon
>> Mullican, 1941).
>>
>> See also "Squeeze my lemon til the juice run down my leg"
>> from Travellin Riverside Blues by Robert Johnson, 1937.
>
> Different lemons (and sense) can be found in:
>
> Please let me squeeze your lemons
> While I'm in your lonesome town.
> Now let me squeeze your lemons, baby,
> Until my love come down.

"Until my _love come down_"

This phrase should also be of historical interest. There was once a
song - 1940's? 1950's - with the line and/or the title, "Down came my
heavy love." "Bring/brought my love down," "my love came down," etc.
are other popular versions. I'd start looking for it myself, but today
is a *very* busy day for me. If this is already in HDAS or wherever, I
apologize.

-Wilson Gray

> - Charlie Pickett, 'Let me squeeze your lemons', NYC, 3 August 1937
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 16 17:38:13 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:38:13 -0800
Subject: "Change the Name of Arkansas"
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.093813.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

J. Frank Dobie, Guide to Life and Literature of the Southwest, ed. 2 (Dallas: SMU Press, 1953), ch. VIII (also online) :

"'Change the Name of Arkansas'...in 1919 in officers' barracks at Bordeaux, France, I heard a lusty individual recite [it] with as many variations as Roxane of Cyrano de Bergerac wanted in love-making."

JL


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 The all-new My Yahoo! � What will yours do?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb 16 22:16:05 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:16:05 -0500
Subject: FYI: Proquest databases update
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.171605.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

LOS ANGELES TIMES & CHICAGO TRIBUNE

Still no movement in the Los Angeles Times. This "California Roll" is going to take me forever. "Granola" and "trail mix," too. The whole nine yards.

The Chicago Tribune is allegedly at January 1960, but there's a gap in 1959. I check for the word "slang."

1. Obituary 2 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 4, 1960. p. G6 (1 page)

   2. Other 4 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jun 30, 1959. p. 5 (1 page)

--------------------------------------------------------------
PROQUEST "RETROSPECTIVES"

"Retrospectives" is an historical e-newsletter from ProQuest that just arrived in the mail.

SCHOMBURG--This is a "mid-year release." So if I don't solve "hawk/Hawkins" now, it should be solved soon.

BOSTON GLOBE--Due March 2005. Which is...two weeks? Don't bet on that.

PERIODICALS CONTENTS INDEX--Full text has been expanded. I hadn't used it much, but it will be a great help if it's completed.


http://www.il.proquest.com/division/pr/05/20050114E.shtml
ProQuest and New York Public Library Schomburg Center Announce New Black Studies Resource

Schomburg Studies on the Black Experience offers original essays, historical content for scholars and students

ANN ARBOR, Mich., January 14, 2005 -- ProQuest Information and Learning, in association with the New York Public Library and the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture, announces the upcoming release of Schomburg Studies on the Black Experience. The new electronic database, set for mid-year release, will offer exciting new tools for innovative Black Studies research and teaching for scholars and students in both academic and public libraries


http://www.il.proquest.com/division/pr/04/20040924.shtml
ProQuest Adds Enhanced Searches, OpenURL Support to PCI

PCI Full Text now offers hit highlighting, more searchable full-text, Z39.50 support

ANN ARBOR, Mich., September 24, 2004 -- ProQuest Information and Learning has added new features and functionality to a scholarly favorite, the Periodicals Contents Index (PCI) suite of research databases. PCI and PCI Full Text now offer enhanced searching, OpenURL support, and Z39.50 compatibility. ProQuest Information and Learning, a unit of ProQuest Company, creates and publishes databases for libraries and educational institutions worldwide.

PCI is an electronic index to millions of articles published in 4,547 periodicals in the humanities and social sciences. It offers researchers quick access to every article relevant to their particular field of study.  PCI Full Text provides online access to more than 4 million pages in three collections of 100 humanities and social sciences journals each, an expanding virtual library of retrospective journals from 1800-1991.  Users link seamlessly from the bibliographic data in PCI to the digitized journal pages available in PCI Full Text.


http://www.il.proquest.com/division/pr/05/20050114D.shtml
The Boston Globe Joins ProQuest Historical Newspapers™ Collection

Latest addition to full-run historical newspapers will launch in March

ANN ARBOR, Mich., January 14, 2005 -- ProQuest Information and Learning announced that it will bring the rich resources of The Boston Globe's historical content to the ProQuest Historical Newspapers collection, under an existing agreement with The New York Times Company. The resource will be available to academic institutions and libraries, primary and secondary schools, and government and corporate libraries. ProQuest Information and Learning, a unit of ProQuest Company, creates and publishes databases for libraries and educational institutions worldwide.

In the release, historical news content from The Boston Globe will be available online from its first published edition in 1872 though 1922.   The Globe, winner of 17 Pulitzer Prizes, is considered the mainstay for Boston and New England regional news coverage.  The database will launch in March 2005.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb 16 22:54:18 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:54:18 -0500
Subject: Yumptious (1957); Nat Ferber's "SIdewalks of New York" (1927)
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.175418.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

YUMPTIOUS
 �
Grant Barrett's Double-Tongued Word Wrester has this, but doesn't list Newspaperarchive:
 �  �
http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/yumptious/
yumptious adj. delicious.
English. Food & Drink. [yummy + scrumptious]

1980 William Safire N.Y. Times Magazine (Sept. 21) “On Language: Living In Synonymy” p. 16: This scholarly, no-frills econiche for neologisms makes yumptious reading from here to Bosnywash.

 �  �
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
 � Syracuse Herald Journal � Sunday, August 04, 1957 Syracuse, New York �  �
...trick on this one. The other as the YUMPTIOUS creation which the inventor..

Pg. 56, col. 4:
The other chose, as usual, the "Sabayon Fielding"--a yumptious creation which the inventor was kind enough to name in our honor several years ago
 �
--------------------------------------------------------------
NAT FERBER'S "SIDEWALKS OF NEW YORK"
 �
I've been going through Nat Ferber's works. He was a reporter on the New York American. His I FOUND OUT (1939) about his American stories doesn't have much of interest here (junkie? snowbird? yenta?), but it's great New York City history.
 �
SIDEWALKS OF NEW YORK (1927), if you check on Catnyp, is "missing" from the NYPL. I had to read it at Special Collections here at NYU. SIDEWALKS OF NEW YORK, fer chissakes.
 �
OED has "Edna Ferber" entries, but nothing at all for Nat Ferber.
 �
 �
SIDEWALKS OF NEW YORK: A NOVEL OF THE EAST SIDE
by Nat J. Ferber
Chicago: Pascal Covici
1927
 �
Pg. 9: Bluntly, Meyer Bernstein referred to his disconcerting grandchild as a _mamzer_ and recoiled from the sound of the word.
 �
Pg. 24: "Nu, these _nudnickness_ [boors] make the most trouble in the cemetery. They are such good actors that they make everybody hystericable. Just when I begin throwing in the grave the first couple shovels dirt, she will give a holler of '_vey is mir_!' [Woe is me!], give herself a clap in the head and make out she is [Pg. 25--ed.] going t'row herself in the grave on top of the coffin."
 �
Pg. 26: "Why don't you see Luftig, the _shammes_?"
 �
Pg. 31: ..._shadchen_ {matchmaker's] fee.
 �
Pg. 34: He swelled with conceit when of him would be repeated in his hearing the time-worn Yiddish saying: "He can bring a wall and a wall together; two stones he can make one."
 �  �
Pg. 41: "I want to introduce you to Mr. Chaim COhen, the biggest potatonik in Rivington Street."
(...)
"Pleesta meecha," stammered Cohen,...
 �
Pg. 45: ...not a kaptzin_.
 �
Pg. 47: ...potato peddler a _millionairke_.
 �
Pg. 58: ..._schidach_...
 �
Pg. 60: Even the apathetic Mrs. Cohen, witness to many such meetings, donned a clean silk kerchief which she wore over her _sheitel_ [wig].
 �
Pg. 72: "Whatsamatter? Whatsamatter?"
 �
Pg. 102: "I'll kill him and in my house there will be no more _mamzeirim_."
 �
Pg. 115: "_Mamzeiris_! Blackhands! _Dago_! Why was I cursed with you!"
 �
Pg. 128: "_Tachreichim_ [a shroud] I'll buy you, whore!"
 �
Pg. 129: The lodging house stiffs of the Bowery, pawns in the well known practice of "voting early and often," did their business with Frank in the shadows of the place.
 �
Pg. 136: "Yeh, it happens _taake_ mean step-mothers," Herschel admitted, "But I know from neighbors that she is a good woman.
 �
Pg. 153: "Mazel Tov," [Lucky Day] he articulated through teeth that gripped a stuffed chicken neck.
(...)
"Yeh. And we should live when you shouldn't have so much nerve like you now got, _Chazer_! [pig].
 �
Pg. 168: And they, surrounded by sympathizing relatives, were mourning their Abraham who had "gone west."
 �
Pg. 179: Second, as he put it, he was "punch drunk." He was like the pugilist who had been struck times without number on the head.
 �
Pg. 214: "Instead of Alter Posterock, that sounds like something to eat, like pastrami, you can call yourself Paster, a hightone American name."
 �
Pg. 215: "Now all of a sudden you are changing your name and talking about checks. It ain't kosher."
 �
Pg. 218: The street changed Posternock to suit itself and referred to Alter and his as the _Pascudnicks_, which means "the filthy."
 �
Pg. 256: Her goulasch, strudel and pirogen were delicacies for which Chatzkel's place was locally famous.
 �
Pg. 258: "He ain't a professor. He's going to be a bust boy."
"A bust boy?"
"Yeh. A bust boy. what busts the dishes."
 �
Pg. 271: The party ordered cheese blintzes and were given rapid service.
 �
Pg. 274: I'll quicker become a _Rebitzen_ (of the rabbinate).
 �
Pg. 299: "A _maake_, an abcess, I'll put back."
 �
Pg. 344: The reporter, a hard boiled egg, in the language of Park Row, frankly announced on his arrival in Stone's presence that he had come to prove that he was a crook."
 �
Pg. 349: The reporter wrote a "first person" interview with her.


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Thu Feb 17 00:33:15 2005
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:33:15 -0500
Subject: fee for consulting
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.193315.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

if any professionally employed linguist here, esp those employed as an
academic, has provided linguistic consultation for a fee, would you
please backchannel to me, at this email address

simon at ipfw.edu

thanks!

beth simon

beth lee simon, ph.d.
associate professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
fort wayne, in 46805-1499
u.s.
voice (011) 260 481 6761; fax (011) 260 481 6985
email simon at ipfw.edu


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Feb 17 01:54:36 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:54:36 -0500
Subject: my link to the archives has changed..
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.205436.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Did this happen to anyone else?  Did I do something wrong, or right?  Did I not pay my bill?

I can't figure out how to link to the archives the way I always did.

All I get now is the new, improved seven pages of the ADS homepage.

sc


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Feb 17 02:02:05 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:02:05 -0500
Subject: my link to the archives has changed..
In-Reply-To: <009001c51493$a27e2050$bc24a618@sam>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.210205.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 08:54:36PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote:
> Did this happen to anyone else?  Did I do something wrong, or right?  Did I not pay my bill?
>
> I can't figure out how to link to the archives the way I always did.

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l

I didn't realize there _was_ another way to get to the archives....

Jesse Sheidlower


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Feb 17 02:25:08 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:25:08 -0500
Subject: my link to the archives has changed..
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.212508.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Jesse.  This isn't the page I've had for some time now, but it
works.  Doesn't look as colorful or warm as the other one did.

Sam C.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Sheidlower" <jester at PANIX.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: my link to the archives has changed..


> On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 08:54:36PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote:
> > Did this happen to anyone else?  Did I do something wrong, or right?
Did I not pay my bill?
> >
> > I can't figure out how to link to the archives the way I always did.
>
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l
>
> I didn't realize there _was_ another way to get to the archives....
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Feb 17 02:31:43 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:31:43 -0500
Subject: my link to the archives has changed..
In-Reply-To: <009d01c51497$e67ce850$bc24a618@sam>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.213143.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 09:25:08PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote:
> Thanks, Jesse.  This isn't the page I've had for some time now, but it
> works.  Doesn't look as colorful or warm as the other one did.

I'm sure Grant will be along with an explanation soon, but I
see now that the spiffy new ADS pages--thanks, Grant!--does
have a link to this--it's the link "ADS-L Archive".

Jesse Sheidlower


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Feb 17 02:32:08 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:32:08 -0800
Subject: my link to the archives has changed..
In-Reply-To: <20050217020205.GA29347@panix.com>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.183208.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 16, 2005, at 6:02 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 08:54:36PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote:
>> Did this happen to anyone else?  Did I do something wrong, or right?
>> Did I not pay my bill?
>>
>> I can't figure out how to link to the archives the way I always did.
>
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l
>
> I didn't realize there _was_ another way to get to the archives....

you can still go to the main ADS page, click on Mail List, and get to
the archives from that page, without remembering or recording any
address other than americandialect.org.

arnold


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Feb 17 03:09:45 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:09:45 -0500
Subject: my link to the archives has changed..
In-Reply-To: <009001c51493$a27e2050$bc24a618@sam>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.220945.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes! I did finally finish the new ADS site. The old link to the ADS-L
archive redirects to the new ADS-L page, which, as Jesse and Arnold
point out, does have a link to the LinguistList interface to the
archive, which offers the exact same features (and means I have to code
one less page for the ADS-L site).

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l

I am working slowly on the old archives. I hope to have them up soon,
with dupes removed and better search options.

Grant

On Feb 16, 2005, at 20:54, Sam Clements wrote:

> Did this happen to anyone else?  Did I do something wrong, or right?
> Did I not pay my bill?
>
> I can't figure out how to link to the archives the way I always did.
>
> All I get now is the new, improved seven pages of the ADS homepage.
>
> sc
>


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Feb 17 03:17:17 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:17:17 -0500
Subject: Yumptious (1957); Nat Ferber's "SIdewalks of New York" (1927)
In-Reply-To: <4919F677.48F84495.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.221717.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks for that, Barry. I couldn't get into the NA site for some reason
yesterday. I kept getting strange Microsoft .Net errors.

Grant

On Feb 16, 2005, at 17:54, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> YUMPTIOUS
> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
>   Syracuse Herald Journal  Sunday, August 04, 1957 Syracuse, New
> York   Â
> ...trick on this one. The other as the YUMPTIOUS creation which the
> inventor..
>
> Pg. 56, col. 4:
> The other chose, as usual, the "Sabayon Fielding"--a yumptious
> creation which the inventor was kind enough to name in our honor
> several years ago


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 17 04:12:39 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:12:39 -0500
Subject: "Love muscle"
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.231239.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

HDAS dates this to at least 1958. I didn't hear it till 1960. However,
FWIW, my "informant," a white sailor from Camden, NJ, told me that I
was overcorrecting - or words to that effect. According to him, the
proper term is "love _muzzle_," which is not in HDAS.

-Wilson Gray


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 17 07:04:39 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:04:39 EST
Subject: "Plant you now and dig you later" (1935)
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.020439.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is so stupid I love it. The HDAS has it from the New York Times of May
9, 1943. (The first "dig" entry there is 1938.) It's repeated twice in the
following book I was going through.
...
...
THE BOOK OF NEGRO FOLKLORE
edited by Langston Hughes and Arna Bontemps
New York: Dodd, Mead & Company
1958
...
Pg. 480:
"Like the farmer and the 'tater, plant you now and dig you later"--means,  "I
must go, but I'll remember you."
...
Pg. 486 (HARLEM JIVE TALK, IDIOMS, FOLK EXPRESSIONS):
PLANT YOU NOW AND DIG YOU LATER: I'll leave you now to see you by and  by.
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
     _Hammond Times _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2nLhVKQpr+YtsGEMdnKdZ9roBG8iBNFqP0IF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday,
September 05, 1935 _Hammond,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hammond+plant+you+now+and+dig+you+later+AND)  _Indiana_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:indiana+plant+you+now+and+dig+you+later+A
ND)
...dictionary: "I'll  PLANT YOU NOW AND DIG  YOU LATER, which
means.....studies have indicated  that had our PLANT been used to capacity in 1929  over..

...
_Hammond Times _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2nLhVKQpr+YtqMBfI4M4wcyFJqGGi4mX1kIF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday, September
05, 1935 _Hammond,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hammond+plant+you+now+and+dig+you+later+AND)  _Indiana_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:indiana+plant+you+now+and+dig+you+later+AND)

...dictionary: "I'll  PLANT YOU NOW AND DIG  YOU LATER, means, "Take
it.....studies have.  indicated that had our PLANT been used to capacity in 1929
over..
Pg. 4, col.  3:
MY NEW YORK by  James Aswell
(...)
For the new  Harlemerican dictionary: "I'll plant you now and dig you later,
gate!"--which means, "Take it easy. I'll see you later."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 17 08:11:02 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:11:02 EST
Subject: "I'm the boss, applesauce. Understand,
 rubber band?" (Children's rhymes)
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.031102.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The following book is just wonderful. There are lots of wonderful
expressions to trace. Oxford's quotations/phrase/fable books never include this.  I
don't know what Fred Shapiro might include, but there's a Yale rhyme  here. I'll
do the database searches on another post.
...
...
ONE POTATO, TWO POTATO...:
THE SECRET EDUCATION OF AMERICAN CHILDREN
by Mary and Herbert Knapp
New York: W. W. Norton & Co., Inc.
1976
...
...
Pg. 63:
Don't give me no lip, Potato Chip.
Shut up, Ketchup.
I'm the boss, Applesauce.
It's your fault, Garlic Salt.
Don't get wise, Bubble-eyes.
Pg. 64:
You're cruisin' for a bruisin'.
Understand, Rubber band?
Yes, I do, Tennis Shoe.
(...)
Be like a banana and split.
Be like dandruff and flake off.
Be like a tree and leave.
Be like a ghost and vanish.
Be like a bee and buzz off.
Take a long walk off a short pier.
(...)
Go jump in a lake.
(...)
Be like a baby and head out.
Be like a hockey player and get the puck out of here.
...
Pg. 84:
We can, we can, we know we can,
We can, we can, we must.
We can, we can, we know we can,
Increase our bust.
...
Pg. 85:
We must, we must,
Increase our bust.
The bigger the better,
The tighter the sweater,
The boys like you better,
And so we must.
...
Pg. 93:
What starts with _f_ and ends with _c-k_?
Firetruck, you dummy, what'd you think it was?
(...)
Tell them to say, "I'm not the sheet slitter, I'm the sheet slitter's son,
but I'll slit your sheets till the sheet slitter comes."
...
Pg. 105:
What did the mother bullet say to the father bullet?
We're going to have a bee-bee.
...
Pg. 106:
What's S.T.P.?
Sticky toilet paper.
(...)
What made Miss Tomato turn red?
She saw Mister Green pea.
(...)
What's six inches long and has two nuts?
An almond bar.
...
Pg. 140:
My name is _Alice; my husband's name is _Al_;
 We live in _Alabama_; and we sell _apples_. (Alphabet  verses--ed.)
...
Pg. 141:
One, two, three a nation,
I received my confirmation
On this day of declaration,
One, two, three a nation.
...
Pg. 150: Contemporary children play both traditional and modern versions of
Rise, Sally, Rise.
...
Pg. 153:
Remember Grant,
Remember Lee,
To hell with them,
Remember me.
...
Pg. 154:
I auto cry,
I auto laugh,
I auto sign,
My autograph.
(...)
Roses are red,
Flowers are blue,
Your mother is pretty,
What happened to you?
[Or "What you need is a goof shampoo."]
(...)
I saw you in the ocean,
I saw you in the sea,
I saw you in the bathtub--
Oops, pardon me.
(...)
By the sewer I lived,
By the sewer I died,
They called it a murder,
But it was sewer-cide.
...
Pg. 155:
Some kiss under a lily,
Somme kiss under a rose,
But the best place to kiss a boy,
Is right under his nose.
...
Pg. 162:
Comet, it makes your teeth turn green,
Comet, it tastes like gasoline [or "Listerine," "Vaseline"],
Comet, it makes you vomit,
So buy some Comet and vomit today!
...
Pg. 163:
McDonald's is your kind of place;
They serve you rattlesnakes,
Hot dogs up your nose,
French fries between your toes,
And don't forget those chocolate shakes,
They're from polluted eggs,
McDonald's is your kind of place;
The last time that I was there,
They stole my underwear,
I really didn't care,
They were a dirty pair.
The next time that you go there,
They'll serve my underwear.
McDonald's is your kind of place.
Scooo-oobie.
...
Pg. 165:
Pepsi-Cola went to town,
Coca-Cola shot him down,
Dr. Pepper dixed him up,
While drinking a bottle of Seven-Up.
...
Pg. 183: I love you bit, I love you mighty,
O wish your pajamas were next to my nightie.
Now don't get excited, now don't lose your head,
I mean on the clothesline instead of in bed.
...
Pg. 185:
I see London, I see France,
I see _Betsy's_ underpants.
They ain't green, they ain't blue,
They're just  filled with number two.
(...)
Tarzan swings, Tarzan falls,
Tarzan lands right on his balls.
...
Pg. 188:
Old MacDonald sittin' on a fence,
Hittin' his knee with a monkey wrench,
Missed his knee and cracked his balls,
Pissed all over his overalls.
(...)
Tra-la-la-boom-de-ay,
We'll take your pants away,
And while you're standing there,
We'll take your underwear!
(...)
I don't go out with girls any more,
I don't intend to marry.
I just do out with boys I adore,
Oops! I'm a fairy.
...
Pg. 195:
Three little Negroes dressed in white,
Wanted to go to Harvard on the tail of a kite,
The kite string broke and down they fell.
They didn't go to Harvard, they went to...
Now don't get excited, don't turn pale,
They didn't go to Harvard, they went to Yale.
(Michigan, 1961)
...
Pg. 198: Chin conh Chinaman...
...
Pg. 199:
"Do you like cheese?"
"Yes."
"You're a dirty Japanese."
...
Pg. 202:
Holy Moses, King of the Jews
Wiped his ass on the _Daily News_.
The paper was thin
And what a fine mess the king was in.
...
Pg. 203:
Roses are red,
Violets are bluish,
If it weren't for Christmas,
We'd all be Jewish.
...
Pg. 213:
The Addams family started
When Uncle Fester [or "Henry"] farted.
I think they're all retarded,
["They all came out retarded,"]
The Addams fam-il-y.
[Two farting noises follow.]
...
Pg. 215:
Beans, beans are good for your heart.
The more you eat, the more you fart.
The more you fart, the better you feel,
So eat beans for every meal.
(...)
Beans, beans are a musical fruit.
The more you eat, the more you toot.
The more you toot, the better you feel,
So eat beans for every meal.
...
Pg. 222:
Trick for treat,
Smell my feet,
Give me something good to eat!
...
Pg. 223:
April Fool, go to school,
Tell your teacher she's a fool.
If she slaps you, don't you cry.
Take your books and say, "Good-by!"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 17 08:49:26 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:49:26 EST
Subject: "I'm the boss, applesauce. Understand,
 rubber band?" (Children's rhymes)
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.034926.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here are some against Newspaperarchive before I go to bed...Yes, I did make
a few typing mistakes in the last post, but they should be obvious.
...
...
...
     _ Post Standard _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2ng5EdsWvp4xHY8z7zjC5omDvB/qLKqk1kIF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday,
October  06, 1988 _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+i)  _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+i)      ...To borrow a phrase from  THEm, "I'M THE BOSS
APPLESAUCE My 3  p.m. meeting is for.....What we call, 'Last of THE least AND  best
of THE rest Fiddler's Green  is..
...
...
     _Bismarck Tribune _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2gC9aK8T6pzPeC4RRS2LTGKiTAE7jok+MkIF+CsZYmrz)  Saturday,
April 07, 1956 _Bismarck,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:bismarck+lip,+potato+chip)  _North Dakota_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:north_dakota+lip,+potato+chip)      ...legs are
straighter Watch  your lip POTATO CHIP Easy breezy, there's  malaria..
...
...
     _Syracuse Herald Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=guFez8c11n2KID/6NLMW2u15gyf/4KvxVESC+dZgfgA9jkpRJw/0jEIF+CsZYmrz)
Thursday, April 08, 1982 _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+wish+your+pajamas)  _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+wish+your+pajamas)      ...end goes like
I love you I  love you I WISH YOUR PAJAMAS were next to my  Don't.....it many
years ago and am just -.about YOUR so Til bet you  can help me out..
...
     _News Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WIIwbfg7DKmKID/6NLMW2v5LCvD8WAgt4jaZuvIgcUqmvP4cXiVJ4UIF+CsZYmrz)  Wednesday, December
11, 1963 _Mansfield,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:mansfield+violets+are+bluish)  _Ohio_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+violets+are+bluish)      ...Great Lakes Mall "Roses
ARE reddish, VIOLETS ARE BLUISH. If it wasn't  for.....Police Chief Jim
Coleman and his wife ARE back from Florida  and he's got a..

...
     _Syracuse Herald Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2iYfV7N+C2qfJtldr75xC5+ISRHU7i5Yd0IF+CsZYmrz)
Thursday, January 12, 1995 _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+beans+and+more+you+eat)  _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+beans+and+more+you+eat)
...BEANS, BEANS,  the magical fruit, the MORE YOU EAT, the MORE  YOU
toot.....BEANS, BEANS, the magical fruit, the  MORE YOU EAT, the MORE YOU toot If  I..

...
     _Syracuse Herald Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=4uFNimLMxoSKID/6NLMW2tfyePmJHkUvMFFRfj4Jd0mMHPfpkzN2uEIF+CsZYmrz)  Sunday,
October 04, 1998 _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+treat+and+give+me+something)  _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+treat+and+give+me+something)

...for the number 6. rick or  TREAT? GIVE ME soMEthing good to cat! We had
better.....nuMErals on each page. Trick or TREAT, My Feet  written AND
illustrated..

...
_Lima News _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=/TuInQ3tu5uKID/6NLMW2n4YTxDnN8dlhgyQ76sy2mlNk7rME+I+gUIF+CsZYmrz)  Sunday, October 24, 1971
_Lima,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lima+treat+and+give+me+something)  _Ohio_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+treat+and+give+me+something)      ...trick or TREAT,  .sMEll my
feet, GIVE ME soMEthing good to  eat." Tami Wininger.....be everything new to
sew, wear AND  GIVE for the 1971 holidays.  At-hoME..

...
     _Guthrian _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MHMeTXbgRjuKID/6NLMW2lxb6qqBJC0pFgcYfk4PNgFwUONAFOFcSQ==)  Monday, October 30, 1972
_Guthrie Center,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:guthrie_center+treat+and+give+me+something)  _Iowa_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+treat+and+give+me+something)      ...TRICK OR
TREAT.  SMELL MY FEET, GIVE ME SOMETHING GOOD TO EAT  S. Is Jf. Nov.....sponsor
an activity, it should choose soMEthing  that more kids can benefit..


...
     _Hamburg Reporter _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MHMeTXbgRjuKID/6NLMW2mjgzaqg3ZbrFM7K0qgPHgknyVnYmGViGw==)  Thursday, December 18,
1969 _Hamburg,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hamburg+smell+my+feet+and+give+me+something)  _Iowa_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+smell+my+feet+and+give+me+something)
...21 to Feb. Say or treet,  SMELL MY FEET, GIVE ME  soMEthing good to eat,
as.....is sung like it was a hymn. In Never  GIVE ME Your Money, it is brought
out..

...


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 17 13:48:18 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:48:18 -0500
Subject: "Plant you now and dig you later" (1935)
In-Reply-To: <E1D1fiU-0005vI-00@mx03.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.084818.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What's "so stupid [that you] love it"? Or do you mean, "_mad stupid_"?

-Wilson

On Feb 17, 2005, at 2:04 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      "Plant you now and dig you later" (1935)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> This is so stupid I love it. The HDAS has it from the New York Times
> of May
> 9, 1943. (The first "dig" entry there is 1938.) It's repeated twice in
> the
> following book I was going through.
> ...
> ...
> THE BOOK OF NEGRO FOLKLORE
> edited by Langston Hughes and Arna Bontemps
> New York: Dodd, Mead & Company
> 1958
> ...
> Pg. 480:
> "Like the farmer and the 'tater, plant you now and dig you
> later"--means,  "I
> must go, but I'll remember you."
> ...
> Pg. 486 (HARLEM JIVE TALK, IDIOMS, FOLK EXPRESSIONS):
> PLANT YOU NOW AND DIG YOU LATER: I'll leave you now to see you by and
> by.
> ...
> ...
> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
>      _Hammond Times _
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/
> 6NLMW2nLhVKQpr+YtsGEMdnKdZ9roBG8iBNFqP0IF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday,
> September 05, 1935 _Hammond,_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:
> hammond+plant+you+now+and+dig+you+later+AND)  _Indiana_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:
> indiana+plant+you+now+and+dig+you+later+A
> ND)
> ...dictionary: "I'll  PLANT YOU NOW AND DIG  YOU LATER, which
> means.....studies have indicated  that had our PLANT been used to
> capacity in 1929  over..
>
> ...
> _Hammond Times _
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/
> 6NLMW2nLhVKQpr+YtqMBfI4M4wcyFJqGGi4mX1kIF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday,
> September
> 05, 1935 _Hammond,_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:
> hammond+plant+you+now+and+dig+you+later+AND)  _Indiana_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:
> indiana+plant+you+now+and+dig+you+later+AND)
>
> ...dictionary: "I'll  PLANT YOU NOW AND DIG  YOU LATER, means, "Take
> it.....studies have.  indicated that had our PLANT been used to
> capacity in 1929
> over..
> Pg. 4, col.  3:
> MY NEW YORK by  James Aswell
> (...)
> For the new  Harlemerican dictionary: "I'll plant you now and dig you
> later,
> gate!"--which means, "Take it easy. I'll see you later."
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 17 14:42:44 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:42:44 -0800
Subject: "Love muscle"
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.064244.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Don't know about "love muzzle," Wilson.  Word is quite unfamiliar to me.  The implied ordnance metaphor isn't very apropos, all things being considered.


JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: "Love muscle"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HDAS dates this to at least 1958. I didn't hear it till 1960. However,
FWIW, my "informant," a white sailor from Camden, NJ, told me that I
was overcorrecting - or words to that effect. According to him, the
proper term is "love _muzzle_," which is not in HDAS.

-Wilson Gray


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 17 15:28:06 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:28:06 -0800
Subject: "I'm the boss, applesauce. Understand,
 rubber band?" (Children's rhymes)
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.072806.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Why don't you take a long walk off a short pier?"  NYC kid, 1963

"Don't get wise, Beady-Eyes."   NYC kid, 1960

JL
Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: "I'm the boss, applesauce. Understand, rubber band?" (Children's
rhymes)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following book is just wonderful. There are lots of wonderful
expressions to trace. Oxford's quotations/phrase/fable books never include this. I
don't know what Fred Shapiro might include, but there's a Yale rhyme here. I'll
do the database searches on another post.
...
...
ONE POTATO, TWO POTATO...:
THE SECRET EDUCATION OF AMERICAN CHILDREN
by Mary and Herbert Knapp
New York: W. W. Norton & Co., Inc.
1976
...
...
Pg. 63:
Don't give me no lip, Potato Chip.
Shut up, Ketchup.
I'm the boss, Applesauce.
It's your fault, Garlic Salt.
Don't get wise, Bubble-eyes.
Pg. 64:
You're cruisin' for a bruisin'.
Understand, Rubber band?
Yes, I do, Tennis Shoe.
(...)
Be like a banana and split.
Be like dandruff and flake off.
Be like a tree and leave.
Be like a ghost and vanish.
Be like a bee and buzz off.
Take a long walk off a short pier.
(...)
Go jump in a lake.
(...)
Be like a baby and head out.
Be like a hockey player and get the puck out of here.
...
Pg. 84:
We can, we can, we know we can,
We can, we can, we must.
We can, we can, we know we can,
Increase our bust.
...
Pg. 85:
We must, we must,
Increase our bust.
The bigger the better,
The tighter the sweater,
The boys like you better,
And so we must.
...
Pg. 93:
What starts with _f_ and ends with _c-k_?
Firetruck, you dummy, what'd you think it was?
(...)
Tell them to say, "I'm not the sheet slitter, I'm the sheet slitter's son,
but I'll slit your sheets till the sheet slitter comes."
...
Pg. 105:
What did the mother bullet say to the father bullet?
We're going to have a bee-bee.
...
Pg. 106:
What's S.T.P.?
Sticky toilet paper.
(...)
What made Miss Tomato turn red?
She saw Mister Green pea.
(...)
What's six inches long and has two nuts?
An almond bar.
...
Pg. 140:
My name is _Alice; my husband's name is _Al_;
We live in _Alabama_; and we sell _apples_. (Alphabet verses--ed.)
...
Pg. 141:
One, two, three a nation,
I received my confirmation
On this day of declaration,
One, two, three a nation.
...
Pg. 150: Contemporary children play both traditional and modern versions of
Rise, Sally, Rise.
...
Pg. 153:
Remember Grant,
Remember Lee,
To hell with them,
Remember me.
...
Pg. 154:
I auto cry,
I auto laugh,
I auto sign,
My autograph.
(...)
Roses are red,
Flowers are blue,
Your mother is pretty,
What happened to you?
[Or "What you need is a goof shampoo."]
(...)
I saw you in the ocean,
I saw you in the sea,
I saw you in the bathtub--
Oops, pardon me.
(...)
By the sewer I lived,
By the sewer I died,
They called it a murder,
But it was sewer-cide.
...
Pg. 155:
Some kiss under a lily,
Somme kiss under a rose,
But the best place to kiss a boy,
Is right under his nose.
...
Pg. 162:
Comet, it makes your teeth turn green,
Comet, it tastes like gasoline [or "Listerine," "Vaseline"],
Comet, it makes you vomit,
So buy some Comet and vomit today!
...
Pg. 163:
McDonald's is your kind of place;
They serve you rattlesnakes,
Hot dogs up your nose,
French fries between your toes,
And don't forget those chocolate shakes,
They're from polluted eggs,
McDonald's is your kind of place;
The last time that I was there,
They stole my underwear,
I really didn't care,
They were a dirty pair.
The next time that you go there,
They'll serve my underwear.
McDonald's is your kind of place.
Scooo-oobie.
...
Pg. 165:
Pepsi-Cola went to town,
Coca-Cola shot him down,
Dr. Pepper dixed him up,
While drinking a bottle of Seven-Up.
...
Pg. 183: I love you bit, I love you mighty,
O wish your pajamas were next to my nightie.
Now don't get excited, now don't lose your head,
I mean on the clothesline instead of in bed.
...
Pg. 185:
I see London, I see France,
I see _Betsy's_ underpants.
They ain't green, they ain't blue,
They're just filled with number two.
(...)
Tarzan swings, Tarzan falls,
Tarzan lands right on his balls.
...
Pg. 188:
Old MacDonald sittin' on a fence,
Hittin' his knee with a monkey wrench,
Missed his knee and cracked his balls,
Pissed all over his overalls.
(...)
Tra-la-la-boom-de-ay,
We'll take your pants away,
And while you're standing there,
We'll take your underwear!
(...)
I don't go out with girls any more,
I don't intend to marry.
I just do out with boys I adore,
Oops! I'm a fairy.
...
Pg. 195:
Three little Negroes dressed in white,
Wanted to go to Harvard on the tail of a kite,
The kite string broke and down they fell.
They didn't go to Harvard, they went to...
Now don't get excited, don't turn pale,
They didn't go to Harvard, they went to Yale.
(Michigan, 1961)
...
Pg. 198: Chin conh Chinaman...
...
Pg. 199:
"Do you like cheese?"
"Yes."
"You're a dirty Japanese."
...
Pg. 202:
Holy Moses, King of the Jews
Wiped his ass on the _Daily News_.
The paper was thin
And what a fine mess the king was in.
...
Pg. 203:
Roses are red,
Violets are bluish,
If it weren't for Christmas,
We'd all be Jewish.
...
Pg. 213:
The Addams family started
When Uncle Fester [or "Henry"] farted.
I think they're all retarded,
["They all came out retarded,"]
The Addams fam-il-y.
[Two farting noises follow.]
...
Pg. 215:
Beans, beans are good for your heart.
The more you eat, the more you fart.
The more you fart, the better you feel,
So eat beans for every meal.
(...)
Beans, beans are a musical fruit.
The more you eat, the more you toot.
The more you toot, the better you feel,
So eat beans for every meal.
...
Pg. 222:
Trick for treat,
Smell my feet,
Give me something good to eat!
...
Pg. 223:
April Fool, go to school,
Tell your teacher she's a fool.
If she slaps you, don't you cry.
Take your books and say, "Good-by!"


---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From preston at MSU.EDU  Thu Feb 17 16:02:03 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:02:03 -0500
Subject: Pinot as WTY
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.110203.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Everybody wants to horn in on the WTY act!

The Global Language Monitor (?) has now stepped up to the plate with "pinot."

dInIs

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050217/film_nm/leisure_oscars_words_dc

PS: larry, sorry, no offense meant by "horn in on"
--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM  Thu Feb 17 16:10:08 2005
From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:10:08 -0500
Subject: Email Exposure and Security
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.111008.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

hi Grant,

 From
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l

I can find 15 posts from me that unfortunately
exposes my email address to robots.
Every single robot in the universe can grab it and sell it.
This is a know security risk and flaw.

tell me does this setting
"SET ADS-L CONCEAL"
hide my email address from robots?

Do you plan to code Listserve
to xxxx out the email addy  from this Public Archive?
I would suggest you limit our email address exposure.

Why not improve the navigation on this page
http://www.americandialect.org/index.php/ads/ads_l_the_american_dialect_society_email_discussion_list/
& put the URL for the ADS-L front door
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l

also See: Technology / Security / Internet / Email etc:
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Technology/Home_TECHNOLOGY.html


thanks,
Karen Ellis

--
'At 10:09 PM 2/16/2005, you wrote:
Poster: Grant Barrett <gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG>
Yes! I did finally finish the new ADS site. The old link to the ADS-L
archive redirects to the new ADS-L page, which, as Jesse and Arnold
point out, does have a link to the LinguistList interface to the
archive, which offers the exact same features (and means I have to code
one less page for the ADS-L site).
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l
I am working slowly on the old archives. I hope to have them up soon,
with dupes removed and better search options.
Grant

<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
The Educational CyberPlayGround
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/

National Children's Folksong Repository
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html

Hot List of Schools Online and
Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html

7 Hot Site Awards
New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink,
USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty
<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Thu Feb 17 16:24:53 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:24:53 -0500
Subject: Change the name of Arkansas? (1910); See a pin... (1870)
In-Reply-To: <20050217050316.18DBCB2606@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.112453.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry contributes:
   >>>>>
#"SEE A PIN AND PICK IT UP..."
#
#It appears that "pin" is earlier than "penny."
#
#
#(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
#DREAM OF THE LITTLE GIRL WHO WOULD NOT PICK UP A PIN.
#Mrs A M Diaz. Our Young Folks. An Illustrated Magazine for Boys and Girls (1865-1873). Boston: Mar 1870. Vol. 6, Iss. 3; p. 178 (8 pages)
#First page:
#"See a pin and pick it up,
#All the day you'll have good luck;
#See a pin and let it lie,
#Come to sorrow by and by."
 <<<<<

Not surprising in historical context. A little girl would be much more
likely to see a pin on the floor than a penny. If I recall correctly what I
have read, pins used to be considered quite valuable, having to be made by
hand individually. There's an old song called "Paper of Pins" in which a
suitor offers a lady just that for her hand, followed by other valuable
items, each of which she refuses up to and including "the key to my
chest"... until, in some versions,he offers "the key to my heart", which
wins hers.
(http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiPAPERPIN;ttPAPERPIN.html

http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiPAPERPIN;ttPAPERPIN.html)


-- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname
     http://mark.cracksandshards.com/filk.html
     Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring!
     [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Thu Feb 17 16:33:04 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:33:04 -0600
Subject: "Love muscle"
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.103304.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think I've heard it, in the context of "nuzzle my love muzzle".  Also,
for those who name such things, there is "Russell the love muscle".

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 8:43 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "Love muscle"
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Love muscle"
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> Don't know about "love muzzle," Wilson.  Word is quite
> unfamiliar to me.  The implied ordnance metaphor isn't very
> apropos, all things being considered.
>
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: "Love muscle"
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> HDAS dates this to at least 1958. I didn't hear it till 1960.
> However, FWIW, my "informant," a white sailor from Camden,
> NJ, told me that I was overcorrecting - or words to that
> effect. According to him, the proper term is "love _muzzle_,"
> which is not in HDAS.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
>


From vnend at ADELPHIA.NET  Thu Feb 17 16:35:09 2005
From: vnend at ADELPHIA.NET (David W. James)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:35:09 -0500
Subject: "Love muscle"
In-Reply-To: <20050217144246.ZAYQ22701.mta4.adelphia.net@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.113509.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 17, 2005, at 9:42 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> Don't know about "love muzzle," Wilson.  Word is quite unfamiliar to
> me.  The implied ordnance metaphor isn't very apropos, all things
> being considered.

> JL

        As a synonym for 'love muscle' I have to agree. But if it were used to
refer to a condom it would be delightful.

David


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Thu Feb 17 16:53:12 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:53:12 -0500
Subject: Another look at "honky"
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.115312.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

By coincidence the same piece in AVA that occasioned my quibble about
"dialectic" (a long quote from the RHHDAS entry for "honky") caught the eye
of another reader (from Hamilton AL) who submitted the following letter to
the editor.  [I'm omitting some slightly quarrelsome passages.]  FWIW:

>[....] It's an old word, but not older than the late 1920s and 1930s.  At
>that time in the deep south most domestic workers who cared for the homes
>of the southern white middle-class (maids, women who ironed and washed),
>lived in very segregated black neighborhoods (and still tend to in a city
>such as Montgomery).  Early each morning many were picked up at their
>"shotgun" houses by the white owner for whom they worked, and the white
>driver of an auto "honked" out front of the shotgun houses and waited for
>the domestic to emerge.  They became derisively known to the blacks as
>"honkies," not a complimentary term then, nor now. [ ...........]
PPS  Having played a full season as the only "honkie  cracker" on an
all-black touring pro baseball team in South Carolina, I do have quite a
bit of primary source knowledge of such words from black citizens of that
era.  The mothers and fathers of our players were particularly informative.<
>>From /Anderson Valley Advertiser/ February 9, 2005.

A. Murie


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Feb 17 17:06:31 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:06:31 -0500
Subject: Email Exposure and Security
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050217110732.0374dbb8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.120631.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

According to a conversation I had with Tony Aristar in 2003, the
LinguistList folks put in place sturdy technological barriers which
will prevent robots and spiders from automatically scavenging email
addresses off the pages. It looks like they have done so: if I do a
search for any number of my posts or email addresses in Google, the
archives are not returned as a result. Given the high level of
technical aptitude shown by the folks at LinguistList, I trust that
they have also blocked other indexers, spiders, and robots.

Of course, this blocking does not prevent anyone from going into the
archives and scavenging by hand, but then, anyone can also subscribe to
the email list and retrieve addresses from messages they receive, if
they want to do it the hard way, which spammers, being notoriously
stupid and lazy, don't. However, we may also require some text
obfuscation on the page itself, in the code. I'll ask.

Using the SET ADS-L CONCEAL command only omits your address on the list
of ADS-L subscribers which folks can request directly from the listserv
software.

> Why not [...]ut the URL for the ADS-L front door
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l

The URL for the ADS-L archive front door IS on that page, bold and
underlined, in the second paragraph.

Grant Barrett
ADS Webmaster
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 17 18:25:36 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:25:36 -0500
Subject: Cowboynomics; World's Second Home
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.132536.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

COWBOYNOMICS

It's in today's Wall Street Journal. Whatever it means.


Europe Needs Bush Style Tax Cuts, Less Regulation, and Less ...
Here is some more from my friends at the Wall Street Journal: http://online.wsj.
com/article/0,,SB1108609359817­57416,00.html <quote> Cowboynomics February 17 ...
talk.politics.misc - Feb 17, 9:07 am by sorry_no_em... at yahoo.com - 6 messages - 4 authors

--------------------------------------------------------------
WORLD'S SECOND HOME

Maybe Gerald Cohen has an opinion on this and wants to write a letter to the editor to the NY Times. The Times article mentioned "Fun City," but curiously left out the "Big Apple" that appears in almost every other article on Google News.

Hey, Gersh Kuntzman! About the Big Apple, the City's tourism bureau still gets it wrong, thirteen years later, and tomorrow is the anniversary of the February 18th "Around the Big Apple" column...

OK, back to work. Wish they'd give me air.


http://www.wesh.com/travelgetaways/4206522/detail.html
New York To Drop 'The Big Apple' For Another Nickname

POSTED: 6:40 am EST February 17, 2005

NEW YORK -- Forget "The Big Apple." New York now wants to be known as "The World's Second Home."


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 17 19:34:28 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:34:28 -0800
Subject: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork... (1948); "Never
 been to Yale"
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.113428.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"I'm rubber, you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you!" - NYC kid, 1962

Cf.:

MONTAGUE. I am of pliant, supple whalebone made,
And you are glue.; the insults that you hurl
Bounce off my bouyant frame and stick to you!

-- William Shakespeare*, "Romeo and Juliet, Part 1 (cont.)," V, iii,
 ll. 420-23, in H. Beard, C. Cerf, et al., The Book of Sequels (New York: Random House, 1990), p. 78.

JL
           * "William Shakespeare" is the well-known pseudonym of Henry Beard.



Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: Re: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork... (1948); "Never
been to Yale"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

. . .

Pg. 128:
I'm rubber and you're glue.
What you say to me will bounce back and stick to you.



---------------------------------
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 Meet the all-new My Yahoo! � Try it today!


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 17 20:36:55 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:36:55 -0500
Subject: "Love muscle"
In-Reply-To: <E1D1mri-0000pm-00@mx19.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.153655.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I agree. Assuming that my old war-buddy said "-muzzle" every time that
he used the term, which was a lot, in the barracks environment, why did
I hear it as "-muscle," until he corrected me when I tried to use it?
Probably because the first thing that came to mind was "muzzle" as in
"muzzle for a dog," which made no sense. It made more sense to assume
that he was mispronouncing "muscle." In fact, even as I was writing my
original post, I lost track of the point for a couple of seconds,
because "muzzle for a dog" popped into my head, causing me to block on
"muzzle of a hose" or "muzzle of a firearm."

-Wilson

On Feb 17, 2005, at 9:42 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Love muscle"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Don't know about "love muzzle," Wilson.  Word is quite unfamiliar to
> me.  The implied ordnance metaphor isn't very apropos, all things
> being considered.
>
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: "Love muscle"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> HDAS dates this to at least 1958. I didn't hear it till 1960. However,
> FWIW, my "informant," a white sailor from Camden, NJ, told me that I
> was overcorrecting - or words to that effect. According to him, the
> proper term is "love _muzzle_," which is not in HDAS.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb 17 20:52:39 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:52:39 -0500
Subject: "Love muscle"
In-Reply-To: <36769813e1d254e70a4777556be47d4c@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.155239.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not to be confused with the Love Mussel:  cf.
http://www.thetoque.net/050111/love_mussel.htm


At 3:36 PM -0500 2/17/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>I agree. Assuming that my old war-buddy said "-muzzle" every time that
>he used the term, which was a lot, in the barracks environment, why did
>I hear it as "-muscle," until he corrected me when I tried to use it?
>Probably because the first thing that came to mind was "muzzle" as in
>"muzzle for a dog," which made no sense. It made more sense to assume
>that he was mispronouncing "muscle." In fact, even as I was writing my
>original post, I lost track of the point for a couple of seconds,
>because "muzzle for a dog" popped into my head, causing me to block on
>"muzzle of a hose" or "muzzle of a firearm."
>
>-Wilson
>
>On Feb 17, 2005, at 9:42 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>>Subject:      Re: "Love muscle"
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>Don't know about "love muzzle," Wilson.  Word is quite unfamiliar to
>>me.  The implied ordnance metaphor isn't very apropos, all things
>>being considered.
>>
>>
>>JL
>>
>>Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: Wilson Gray
>>Subject: "Love muscle"
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>HDAS dates this to at least 1958. I didn't hear it till 1960. However,
>>FWIW, my "informant," a white sailor from Camden, NJ, told me that I
>>was overcorrecting - or words to that effect. According to him, the
>>proper term is "love _muzzle_," which is not in HDAS.
>>
>>-Wilson Gray
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>  Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 18 01:34:09 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:34:09 -0500
Subject: more peaches
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.203409.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It also pops up as the last couple of a quatrain, as I was just
reminded by Charlie Poole's rendition of "If the River Was Whiskey",
recorded Jan. 23, 1930 (Charlie Poole and the North Carolina
Ramblers, on County CD-3508):

I was born in Alabama,
Raised in Tennessee,
If you don't like my peaches
Don't shake my tree.

larry


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 18 01:49:54 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:49:54 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.204954.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From the Teen Lingo site found by Patti Kurtz:

beast
    n. Someone who dominates on the basketball court.

Back in the late '50's in Los Angeles, "beast" was used by black male
college students to mean "girl friend." I assume that this application
was extracted from the saying, "[NP] not fit for man or beast"/"[NP]
fit for neither man nor beast."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 18 02:07:36 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:07:36 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <dfcc51f2ce49b6f21314dc9efdeb9705@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.210736.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:49 PM -0500 2/17/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>From the Teen Lingo site found by Patti Kurtz:
>
>beast
>    n. Someone who dominates on the basketball court.

For a while in the 80's, the expression "Beast of the East" was used
in a college basketball context to pick out whichever team was
dominant at a given time, in particular Georgetown of the Patrick
Ewing era ('81-'85).    Wonder if this relates to the above.

>Back in the late '50's in Los Angeles, "beast" was used by black male
>college students to mean "girl friend." I assume that this application
>was extracted from the saying, "[NP] not fit for man or beast"/"[NP]
>fit for neither man nor beast."

Hmmm.  As in the W. C. Fields line?  But that was about the
weather--"It ain't a fit night out for man nor beast" (please
correct, Fred)

larry


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 18 02:10:47 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:10:47 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Menstruation"
In-Reply-To: <p0432040dbe3afd89f8df@[130.132.231.245]>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.211047.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

menstruation (OED3 1753-4)

1708 John Marten _A treatise of all the degrees and symptoms of the
venereal disease, in both sexes_ (ed. 6) 57 (Eighteenth Century
Collections Online)  But if the _white Running_ vanishes, during the
menstruation or flowing of the _Reds_, and returns again when the
_Menstrual_ Flux is over, you may take it for granted 't is nothing but
the _Whites_.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 18 02:14:00 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:14:00 -0500
Subject: Further Antedating of "Menstruation"
In-Reply-To: <p0432040dbe3afd89f8df@[130.132.231.245]>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.211400.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

menstruation (OED3 1753-4)

1686 Gideon Harvey _The Conclave of Physicians in Two Parts_ 87 (Early
English Books Online)  Where Nature was imployed in any beneficial
Evacuation (as in our case of Menstruation) she was not to be molested by
multiplicity of Medicines.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 18 02:22:59 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:22:59 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Menstruate"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502172111550.17652-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.212259.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

menstruate, v. (OED, 2., 1795)

1742 _Medical Essays and Observations_ volume 5, part 1, p. 213
(Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  I gave it to Nurses who contrary
to their Wish menstruated.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 18 02:28:20 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:28:20 -0500
Subject: Further Antedating of "Menstruate"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502172121140.18664-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.212820.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

menstruate, v. (OED3, 2., 1795)

1713 William Cockburn _The symptoms, nature, cause, and cure of a
gonorrhoea_ 93 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  The _Fluor Albus_
is easy to be known in Time of Menstruating.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From daisydancer99 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 18 02:22:43 2005
From: daisydancer99 at YAHOO.COM (daisy dancer)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:22:43 -0800
Subject: CFP: South Central American Dialect Society
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.182243.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Call for Papers

South Central American Dialect Society (Allied Session)

South Central MLA, Houston, TX, October 27-29, 2005

Conference Theme: �Literary Space(s)�





Panel Theme: "Open Topic"



Papers or 500-word abstracts on "dialects," widely construed. Possible topics might include:



* dialects of new media (email, chat, etc.)

* Creole and creolization

* "pidgin" dialects

* "Spanglish" or other hybrid dialects

* dialect versus language

* technology-related jargon

* argots of the work place

* gender, class, or race based dialects

* dialects in language pedagogy

* preservation of dialects

* popular culture and slang dialects

* other dialect forms (visual, musical, architectural, etc.)



Please send abstracts or papers electronically (either in email body or as an attachment with extension .doc, .rtf, or .pdf) to session chair Daisy Pignetti at dpignett at taa.usf.edu no later than March 15, 2005. Presenters must be members of SCMLA by May 15, 2004.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 18 02:38:29 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:38:29 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Surgical"
In-Reply-To: <200502180232.j1I2WqcK021081@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.213829.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

surgical (OED 1770)

1707 _Glossographia Anglicana Nova_ (Eighteenth Century Collections
Online)  _Diorthasis_, a Surgical Operation, by which crooked or distorted
Members are made even.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 18 03:04:26 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:04:26 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <E1D1xYS-0006Xv-00@mx20.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.220426.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 17, 2005, at 9:07 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 8:49 PM -0500 2/17/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>> From the Teen Lingo site found by Patti Kurtz:
>>
>> beast
>>    n. Someone who dominates on the basketball court.
>
> For a while in the 80's, the expression "Beast of the East" was used
> in a college basketball context to pick out whichever team was
> dominant at a given time, in particular Georgetown of the Patrick
> Ewing era ('81-'85).    Wonder if this relates to the above.
>
>> Back in the late '50's in Los Angeles, "beast" was used by black male
>> college students to mean "girl friend." I assume that this application
>> was extracted from the saying, "[NP] not fit for man or beast"/"[NP]
>> fit for neither man nor beast."
>
> Hmmm.  As in the W. C. Fields line?  But that was about the
> weather--"It ain't a fit night out for man nor beast" (please
> correct, Fred)
>
> larry
>

Re "beast" as "girl friend": the source, whatever its actual reading,
could very well be the quotation from W. C. Fields. But what Fields was
referring to doesn't matter, since the use of "beast" for "girl friend"
was understood as a pun, as though "man" meant an individual male human
being and not humanity and "beast" meant an individual non-male human
being and not the animal kingdom.

-Wilson


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 18 03:39:45 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:39:45 -0500
Subject: "Pompatus"
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.223945.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Have you ever wondered what the bleep the "pompatus of love" is? If you
have, check out the following site:

<http://www.evenmore.com/dope.htm>

-Wilson


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Feb 18 03:47:30 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:47:30 -0500
Subject: "Pompatus"
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.224730.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And that, boys and girls, is just an example of the value of The Straight
Dope.

Sam Clements

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 10:39 PM
Subject: "Pompatus"


> Have you ever wondered what the bleep the "pompatus of love" is? If you
> have, check out the following site:
>
> <http://www.evenmore.com/dope.htm>
>
> -Wilson
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 18 04:08:31 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:08:31 -0500
Subject: "Pompatus"
In-Reply-To: <E1D1z7B-0002lF-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.230831.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You ain't just a-bird-turdin'! I own both the original 78 - in 1954, I
bought it for "Buick '59"; "The Letter" was the B-side - and the CD
re-issue and, until tonight, the only thing that I could say for
certain was that "pompatus" couldn't possibly be right. Useless further
information: in 1959, "Buick '59" was re-issued and became as big a hit
as it had been back in '54.

-Wilson

On Feb 17, 2005, at 10:47 PM, Sam Clements wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Sam Clements <SClements at NEO.RR.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Pompatus"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> And that, boys and girls, is just an example of the value of The
> Straight
> Dope.
>
> Sam Clements
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 10:39 PM
> Subject: "Pompatus"
>
>
>> Have you ever wondered what the bleep the "pompatus of love" is? If
>> you
>> have, check out the following site:
>>
>> <http://www.evenmore.com/dope.htm>
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 18 04:45:37 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:45:37 -0500
Subject: As Buddy Holly once sang:
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.234537.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"It really doesn't matter anymore."

He was right, if a patron's review of a book on Amazon.com is any
indication:

"It doesn't _madder_ if you aced the ACT's ...."

-Wilson Gray


From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Fri Feb 18 06:34:08 2005
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 01:34:08 -0500
Subject: As Buddy Holly once sang:
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.013408.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray wrote;

>"It really doesn't matter anymore."
>
>He was right, if a patron's review of a book on Amazon.com is any
>indication:
>
>"It doesn't _madder_ if you aced the ACT's ...."

excellent example of what Pinker calls 'the rule which converts 't' to a
flapped 'd''



Michael McKernan


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 18 08:14:11 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 03:14:11 EST
Subject: "Midnight in Venice" and "Sublime Indiscretion" cakes
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.031411.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SUBLIME INDISCRETION--58 Google hits,  0 Google Groups hits
MIDNIGHT IN VENICE + CAAKE--17 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
...
...
Greetings from the "World's Second Home." I have a second home? I have a  
tiny studio apartment and no health care and no wife and no kids. Second  home??
...
I went to Enest Klein & Company, 1366 6th Avenue (between 55th and 56th  
Streets). I saw "Midnight in Venice" and "Sublime Indiscretion."
...
...
...
(GOOGLE)
_Sublime Indiscretion Chocolate Cappuccino Cake  $36.95 <br>_ 
(http://www.ottomanelli.com/subinchoccap.html) 
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...
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... days, $15.99. Sublime  Indiscretion Chocolate Cappuccino Cake 
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(http://www.eisshinryu.com/cgi-bin/amazon_products_feed-item_id-B0000FSN5Y-search_type-AsinSearc
h-locale-us.html) 
Gourmet : Sublime Indiscretion  Chocolate Cappuccino Cake. ... from: 
Ottomanelli.com. :
Sublime  Indiscretion Chocolate Cappuccino Cake See Larger Image. ...  
www.eisshinryu.com/cgi-bin/amazon_products_  
feed-item_id-B0000FSN5Y-search_type-AsinSearch-locale-us.html - 9k -  Supplemental Result - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:o9ATySmNfu4J:www.eisshinryu.com/cgi-bin/amazon_pro
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...
_::  Sublime-Indiscretion-Chocolate-Cappuccino-Cake.html_ 
(http://www.afterlife-mausoleum-cremation.com/a/B0000FSN5Y/Sublime-Indiscretion-Chocolate-Cappucci
no-Cake.html) 
Sublime Indiscretion Chocolate Cappuccino Cake ID:  B0000FSN5Y by
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www.afterlife-mausoleum-cremation.com/a/  
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cretion"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
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blime-Indiscretion-Chocolate-Cappuccino-Cake.html)  
...
_Ottomanelli s The Chocolate Attraction Gift Basket at alternistock  ..._ 
(http://www.alternistock.com/a/B00005UFD5/Ottomanelli-s-The-Chocolate-Attraction-G
ift-Basket.html) 
... Ivory and Gold Gateau Cake,  Ottomanelli.com Sublime Indiscretion 
Chocolate Cappuccino
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www.alternistock.com/a/B00005UFD5/  
Ottomanelli-s-The-Chocolate-Attraction-Gift-Basket.html - 20k - Supplemental  Result - _Cached_ 
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t-Basket.html)  
...
...
...
(GOOGLE)
...
_Baltimore City Paper: COLUMNS Ed, Edd, and  Eddie's_ 
(http://www.citypaper.com/columns/story.asp?id=1802) 
... Cooler shelves are loaded with  exotic desserts, like a seven-inch cake 
covered in
shaved almonds  labeled "Midnight in Venice" and priced at $15.99.  ... 
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... fabulous broiled seafood  platter ($17.95) featuring clams, mussels, 
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lobster tail, monkfish  and salmon, and Midnight in Venice cake ($3.95) —  
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(http://www.mamascafebaci.com/gourmet.html) 
... Midnight in Venice. Take a gondola ride  and experience chocolate and 
vanilla cake
layered with cannoli filing  & covered with mountains of bitter sweet 
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(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.where-to-dine.com/M/M2201.asp)
  
...
_LIGHTER  SIDE: "De Gustibus"_ (http://www.plannedstrategies.com/degust.html) 
... Peach/Walnut/Cheese  ring, croissant, Assorted Miniature pastries, 
Midnight in  Venice
(Cake), Yulelog, Baker’s Perfection, Green Pond Road,  Rockaway NJ. ... 
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(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:vMHDCXkqlmEJ:www.plannedstrategies.com/d
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/degust.html)  


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 18 08:44:14 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 03:44:14 EST
Subject: "This is the day we give babies away" (1890s)
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.034414.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Google Answers made $15. I can provide a better answr faster, and I
guarantee you, I'll probably never make $15 the rest of my life.
...
...
...
_http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=476372_
(http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=476372)
...

What's the origin of the following saying? "This is the day they give

babies away with a pound of butter."
...
...
Subject: Re: origin of this aphorism
Answered By: _pinkfreud-ga_
(http://answers.google.com/answers/ratings?user=8557989531679117785)  on 17 Feb 2005 21:35 PST
  This line comes from an old song. Apparently the original version had

"half a pound of tea" instead of "a pound of butter." "Half a pound of

cheese" is also sometimes mentioned. According to some sources, the

song may date to the early part of the Twentieth Century. It was

widespread by the 1920s.



"This is the day we give babies away

 With a half a pound of tea

 You just open the lid, and out pops the kid

 With a twelve month guarantee.



'The Day They Gave Babies Away,' a story by Dale Eunson that appeared

in the Christmas 1946 issue of Cosmopolitan, their most successful

Christmas story ever. It was published as a book the following year.

The reference also mentioned a soldiers' ditty circulating in the

1940s that went 'Today is the day they give babies away / with a half

a pound of tea. / If you know any ladies who want any babies / Just

send them around to me.'



I can add references in Vance Randolph's Roll Me in Your Arms:

"Unprintable" Ozark Folksongs and Folklore (Univ. of Arkansas Press,

1992) and Ed Cray's 2nd edition of The Erotic Muse (Univ. of Illinois

Press, 1992), which mention its inclusion in a Josiah Combs 1925 book

of Kentucky/West Virginia folk songs and G. Legman's recollection of

the song in Scranton ca. 1925. A Google search revealed a number of

interesting recollections and usages (including another short story)

of the song and title, one or two of which may be earlier than 1925,

possibly from the turn of the (previous) century."



from Sing Out! The Folk Song Magazine: The Songfinder

_http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1197/is_1_48/ai_113887014_
(http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1197/is_1_48/ai_113887014)



Here you'll find a long thread discussing the song:



The Mudcat Cafe: Today's the day we give babies away

_http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=50412_
(http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=50412)



My Google search strategy:



Google Web Search: "day * give babies away"

_http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22day+*+give+babies+away%22_
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="day+*+give+babies+away")



I hope this is helpful. If anything is unclear or incomplete, please

request clarification; I'll be glad to offer further assistance before

you rate my answer.



Best regards,

pinkfreud


...
...
...
...

(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
     _Evening State Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2i/c0lm3dQ8O434h6TH5qPc455wPLPq9cEIF+CsZYmrz)  Friday,
August 10, 1928 _Lincoln,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lincoln+this+is+the+day+and+give+babies+away)  _Nebraska_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nebraska+this+is+the+day+and+give+ba
bies+away)
...of you, AND play  "THIS IS THE DAY THEy  GIVE BABIES AWAY" on a set of
pearly.....used In thai  NeTHErlANDs. New York DAY by DAY. By O. O.  Mtlntyre.
OPENED..
...

_Nevada State Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=NuHyyu1GcYSKID/6NLMW2kIbN5DJFP4VixULPCNvE2VqsC6fUmwfvw==)  Thursday, June 08, 1911
_Reno,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:reno+this+is+the+day+and+give+babies+away)  _Nevada_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nevada+this+is+the+day+and+give+babies+away)
...BLUE-EYED BABY I  THIS IS THE DAY Tfiey GIVE  BABIES AWAY. Do You Want a
Little.....THIS  IS tho dtiy THEj- GIVE AWAY. onc'i ion a.  lil'tle 'with..

Pg. 8, col. 6:
_BLUE-EYED BABY_
_WANTS A HOME_

_This Is the Day They Give_
_Babies Away. Do You_
_Want a Little Fairy?_

This is the day they give babies away. Want one?
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_Queries  and Answers_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=86893066&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108715323&cli
entId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current file).  New York, N.Y.: Jan 4, 1948. p. BR27 (1
page)
...
_"Give Babies Away"_
MISS GRACE H. LIBEY, Howe, Ind.: In answer to B. E. (Nov. 16) the  lines
wanted are a jingle that reads complete as follows. It was used to  afvertise some
packaged tea between 1893 and 1902 and pictures of babies  accompanied the
package.
...
Today is the day we give babies away with a half a pound of tea.
...
If you know any ladies who want any babies, just send them around to  me.
...
There are white babies and black babies and babies of every degree.
...
For this is the day we give babies away with a half a pound of tea.
...
Miss Gertrude Gordon, Matilda M. Stern of New York, and E. Bolles,
Harrington Park, N. J., answered this request.
...
Dr. J. Hart Toland, Philadelphia, Pa., and Mrs. Dave Reed, N. Y., wrote  that
the original version of this parody was the lyric to George Rosey's
"Honeymoon March" (words by Dave Reed Jr.) published in 1895 by Jos. Stern &  Co. The
Edward N. Marks Music Corporation is the present owner of the copyright.  A
book titled "The Day They Gave Babies Away," by Dale Eunson was published in
November of last year.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 18 08:56:07 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 03:56:07 EST
Subject: "This is the day we give babies away" (1890s)
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.035607.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Google Answers made $15. I can provide a better answer faster, and I
guarantee you, I'll probably never make $15 the rest of my life. Oh well.
...
...
...
_http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=476372_
(http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=476372)
...

What's the origin of the following saying? "This is the day they give

babies away with a pound of butter."
(Long answer with html not re-printed here. It was traced to the 1920s--ed.)
...
...
,,,

(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
     _Evening State Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2i/c0lm3dQ8O434h6TH5qPc455wPLPq9cEIF+CsZYmrz)  Friday,
August 10, 1928 _Lincoln,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lincoln+this+is+the+day+and+give+babies+away)  _Nebraska_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nebraska+this+is+the+day+and+give+ba
bies+away)
...of you, AND play  "THIS IS THE DAY THEy  GIVE BABIES AWAY" on a set of
pearly.....used In thai  NeTHErlANDs. New York DAY by DAY. By O. O.  Mtlntyre.
OPENED..
...

_Nevada State Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=NuHyyu1GcYSKID/6NLMW2kIbN5DJFP4VixULPCNvE2VqsC6fUmwfvw==)  Thursday, June 08, 1911
_Reno,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:reno+this+is+the+day+and+give+babies+away)  _Nevada_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nevada+this+is+the+day+and+give+babies+away)
...BLUE-EYED BABY I  THIS IS THE DAY Tfiey GIVE  BABIES AWAY. Do You Want a
Little.....THIS  IS tho dtiy THEj- GIVE AWAY. onc'i ion a.  lil'tle 'with..

Pg. 8, col. 6:
_BLUE-EYED BABY_
_WANTS A HOME_

_This Is the Day They Give_
_Babies Away. Do You_
_Want a Little Fairy?_

This is the day they give babies away. Want one?
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_Queries  and Answers_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=86893066&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108715323&cli
entId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current file).  New York, N.Y.: Jan 4, 1948. p. BR27 (1
page)
...
_"Give Babies Away"_
MISS GRACE H. LIBEY, Howe, Ind.: In answer to B. E. (Nov. 16) the  lines
wanted are a jingle that reads complete as follows. It was used to  advertise some
packaged tea between 1893 and 1902 and pictures of babies  accompanied the
package.
...
Today is the day we give babies away with a half a pound of tea.
...
If you know any ladies who want any babies, just send them around to  me.
...
There are white babies and black babies and babies of every degree.
...
For this is the day we give babies away with a half a pound of tea.
...
Miss Gertrude Gordon, Matilda M. Stern of New York, and E. Bolles,
Harrington Park, N. J., answered this request.
...
Dr. J. Hart Toland, Philadelphia, Pa., and Mrs. Dave Reed, N. Y., wrote  that
the original version of this parody was the lyric to George Rosey's
"Honeymoon March" (words by Dave Reed Jr.) published in 1895 by Jos. Stern &  Co. The
Edward N. Marks Music Corporation is the present owner of the copyright.  A
book titled "The Day They Gave Babies Away," by Dale Eunson was published in
November of last year.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 18 09:10:45 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 04:10:45 EST
Subject: "Crazy...but it just might work" (1971)
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.041045.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

O.T..: Sorry for the double-posting. ADS-L is slow.
...
...
One more from Google Answers. Did Herblock coin this?
...
...
...
_http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=475894_
(http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=475894)
...

It's a crazy plan, but it might just work!" - who said or popularised this
phrase?
...
...
    Subject: Re: Origin of a popular  phrase
From: _pinkfreud-ga_
(http://answers.google.com/answers/ratings?user=8557989531679117785)   on 17 Feb 2005 10:36 PST
I associate this with the '70s television series "Happy Days," but I

don't think the show invented the phrase.
...
...
...
...

(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
     _ Sheboygan Press _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2hAToVF3DSHinPfIZlHem6FkwiQv6ACx4UIF+CsZYmrz)  Tuesday, April
20,  1971 _Sheboygan,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:sheboygan+crazy+and+but+it+just+might+work)   _Wisconsin_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+crazy+and+but+it+just+might+
work)     ...Ballyhooed "IT's A  CRAZY Idea BUT IT JUST MIGHT  WORK"
Washington Merry-Go.....that will not only bring Calley to  JUST.ce BUT will also
implicate  those..

...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_For  the Record . . .; The Similar Objectives Of tile U.S., U.S.S.R. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=157235392&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=
PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108717150&clientId=65882)
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington,  D.C.: Apr 16,
1971. p. A26 (1 page) :
...
_"It's A Crazy Idea But It Just Might Work"_
(Herblock cartoon caption--ed.)


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 18 12:28:21 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 04:28:21 -0800
Subject: As Buddy Holly once sang:
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.042821.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is so much similar stuff in the patron reviews on Amazon that one could while away many hours copying and pasting.

A peek at the English of Tomorrow.  Today..

JL

Michael McKernan <mckernan at LOCALNET.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Michael McKernan
Subject: Re: As Buddy Holly once sang:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wilson Gray wrote;

>"It really doesn't matter anymore."
>
>He was right, if a patron's review of a book on Amazon.com is any
>indication:
>
>"It doesn't _madder_ if you aced the ACT's ...."

excellent example of what Pinker calls 'the rule which converts 't' to a
flapped 'd''



Michael McKernan

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 18 14:24:49 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:24:49 -0800
Subject: geoduck
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.062449.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This "love mussel" business has inadvertently revealed that the clam spelled "geoduck" was most likely pronounced /'gu i d at k/ originally - and it still is.

OED, however, with a single cite from 1883, gives only the spelling pronunciation.

Was this a mere shot in the dark by the Oxford Dons?

More interesting - why did  we start spelling  "gooeyduck" as "geoduck," and is this the weirdest mismatch since "hiccup / hiccough" ?

JL


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Feb 18 14:39:47 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:39:47 -0500
Subject: geoduck
In-Reply-To: <20050218142449.25258.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.093947.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 06:24:49AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> This "love mussel" business has inadvertently revealed that the clam spelled "geoduck" was most likely pronounced /'gu i d at k/ originally - and it still is.
>
> OED, however, with a single cite from 1883, gives only the spelling pronunciation.
>
> Was this a mere shot in the dark by the Oxford Dons?

Yes.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA  Fri Feb 18 14:58:15 2005
From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:58:15 -0500
Subject: ADS newsletter
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.095815.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Allan,

(1) I may be behind the times, but I have been wondering if there have been
any ADS newsletters since June 2003.

> ADS members will, of course, get paper copies, to be sent by first-class
> mail by the end of this week. (from below).

Is that still true?

(2) If I may ask a favour, do you think my query to Charles Carson appended
below was improper? If so, can you give me an unofficial nonbinding answer?
I just want to make sure I am not throwing away the few remaining copies of
the test printing of the dictionary.

Many thanks.

TOM

From: "Thomas Paikeday" <thomaspaikeday at sprint.ca>
To: <carson at duke.edu>
Subject: May I?
Date: February 16, 2005 3:04 PM

Dear Dr. Carson,

Although I am a life member of ADS, I don't think we have met. I have been
leading a solitary life as a lexicographer.

As a life member, I don't get to see American Speech unless I pay for a
subscription which I haven't been able to afford as a senior on life
support. I can't even seem to be able to access the online journal. I wanted
to find out if you publish reviews of pedestrian works like American English
dictionaries for the masses. What I have in mind is my User's Webster
Dictionary which was test-marketed in a 2000-copy printing and is to be
formally launched soon, hopefully, by a commercial publisher. Instead of
sending you a review copy "over the transom" (and there are only a few
copies of the test printing left), I thought I might write and ask if you
will consider the dictionary for a review in AS. Actually , the complete
dictionary is online at www.paikeday.net. I am merely asking if the book
qualifies, whether you decide to have it reviewed or not.

Thanks for a reply at your convenience.

Regards.

TOM PAIKEDAY

----- Original Message -----
From: <AAllan at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 7:58 PM
Subject: New ADS newsletter


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       AAllan at AOL.COM
> Subject:      New ADS newsletter
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Well! If you go to our website
> http://americandialect.org/
> you'll find that the latest Newsletter of the American Dialect Society has
> been posted there. It's the May issue, admittedly a month late, but for
> the
> first time ever a May issue with the full programs for our four regional
> meetings
> in the fall, complete with abstracts. That was always a problem with the
> September issue, the meetings coming so soon after the date of issue, and
> the issue
> often missing its date. After only a quarter-century of contemplation,
> your
> editor has finally invented this improvement. What's more, along with the
> names
> of their authors the email addresses are provided, so you can get in touch
> with them.
>   And that's not all! but go to the website and note what further is
> available.
>   ADS members will, of course, get paper copies, to be sent by first-class
> mail by the end of this week.
> - Allan Metcalf, editor and ADS executive secretary
>


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 18 15:07:41 2005
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:07:41 -0500
Subject: ADS newsletter
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.100741.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Tom, I regret and am embarrassed to have to say that there has not been an ADS newsletter since May 2003. My time has just been occupied with other matters, though I keep on thinking I'll manage.

This year we're hoping that Grant Barrett, the webmaster, will be able to publish the newsletter. It might be possible soon.

Your request to Charles Carson is perfectly proper. Whether you'll get a review is less certain, just because American Speech doesn't have that many reviews and reviewers.

Next week, when I'm back at my other computer, I'll give you instructions on accessing American Speech online.

Best wishes - Allan


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 18 15:16:24 2005
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:16:24 -0500
Subject: CFP: ADS Annual Meeting, Albuquerque 2006
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.101624.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To ADS members:
  Everything you wanted to know about our next Annual Meeting is now posted prominently on the spiffy new home page of our website, www.americandialect.org, thanks to our webmaster Grant.
  - Allan Metcalf


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 18 18:22:53 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:22:53 -0500
Subject: Pay--to-Pray; AM-NEW YORK front cover
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.132253.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PAY-TO-PRAY

We discussed "pay-to-say." It's usually "pay-to-play." From today's New York Post, 18 February 2005, pg. 31, col. 3:

The Bloomberg administration yesterday cameout against a move by city lawmakers to end Sunday parking-meter rules.
(...)
"The administration doesn't seem to understand how offensive it is for people [in] pay-to-pray situations," said Vincent Gentile (D-Brooklyn).

--------------------------------------------------------------
AM-NEW YORK, February 18-20, 2005, pg. 1:

_NY's nickname_

_Bloomberg wants to call the Big Apple,_
_"The World's Second Home"_

(...)

In the early '70s, Charles Gillett, president of the New York Convention and Visitors Bureau, rescued "The Big Apple" from obscurity for a new publicity campaign. In the 1920s, John J. Fitz (sic), a reporter for the Morning Telegraph, popularized the term when using it to refer to the city's racetracks, according to the Encyclopedia of New York City. He heard the phrase from black stablehands in New Orleans. In the 1930s, jazz musicians carred on the nickname.


(All right. So, if I have sex with Mike Piazza, maybe I can get the front page and credit for my work, too? And is the city finally going to look for the stablehands? Just askin'. Back to parking tickets--ed.)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 18 18:42:43 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:42:43 -0500
Subject: "This is the day we give babies away" (1890s)
In-Reply-To: <1a6.31ec3902.2f4704de@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.134243.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:44 AM -0500 2/18/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>What's the origin of the following saying? "This is the day they give
>
>babies away with a pound of butter."
>...
>...
>Subject: Re: origin of this aphorism
>Answered By: _pinkfreud-ga_
>(http://answers.google.com/answers/ratings?user=8557989531679117785)
>on 17 Feb 2005 21:35 PST
>   This line comes from an old song. Apparently the original version had
>
>"half a pound of tea" instead of "a pound of butter." "Half a pound of
>
>cheese" is also sometimes mentioned. According to some sources, the
>
>song may date to the early part of the Twentieth Century. It was
>
>widespread by the 1920s.
>
>
>
>"This is the day we give babies away
>
>  With a half a pound of tea
>
>  You just open the lid, and out pops the kid
>
>  With a twelve month guarantee.
>
>
>
>'The Day They Gave Babies Away,' a story by Dale Eunson that appeared
>
>in the Christmas 1946 issue of Cosmopolitan, their most successful
>
>Christmas story ever. It was published as a book the following year.
>
>The reference also mentioned a soldiers' ditty circulating in the
>
>1940s that went 'Today is the day they give babies away / with a half
>
>a pound of tea. / If you know any ladies who want any babies / Just
>
>send them around to me.'

I have a cassette of folk-singer Rosalie Sorrels doing her "Hostile
Baby Rocking Song", accompanied by a spoken preamble.  It's actually
quite lovely.  I tracked down both the intro and the lyrics on the
web; you'll recognize the quatrain above, in the 1/2-pound-of-tea
version:

==============================
All right, it's 5:30 in the morning.  That kid has not quit howling
now for six hours.  You're getting sort of desperate, breaking out
into a cold sweat because you know that all those other kids are
going to get up in about another half hour and they're going to
demand cereal and peanut sandwiches and milk. And you forgot to get
milk.  Oh, God.  All the paregoric is gone. It's gone because you
drank it.  Things are getting awful bad and you need something else.
Every culture's got one:  it's the hostile baby-rocking song.  You
just can't keep all that stuff bottled up inside yourself.  You need
to let it out some way, or you'd get strange . . . punch the baby in
the mouth . . . and you
can't do that.  You'd get an awful big ticket for it, and it makes
you feel lousy.  So you take that baby and you rock it firmly, smile
sweetly . . . and you sing the hostile baby-rocking song:

This is the day we give babies away
With a half a pound of tea
You just open the lid, and out pops the kid
With a twelve month guarantee.

This is the day we give babies away
With a half a pound of tea
If you know any ladies who want any babies
Just send them round to me

[chorus:]
There's an island way out in the sea
Where babies grow up on the trees
It's oh so much fun, to swing in the sun
But you have to watch out if you sneeze, you sneeze
You have to watch out if you sneeze

You have to watch out if you sneeze
'Cause swinging up there in the breeze
If you happen to cough, you might very well fall off
And tumble down flop on your knees, your knees
And tumble down flop on your knees.
And when the stormy winds wail
And the breezes blow up in a gale
There's oh such a plopping and flopping and dropping
And fat little babies just hail, just hail
And fat little babies just hail.

And the babies lie there in a pile
And grownups come after a while
And they always pass by any babies that cry
They take only babies that smile, that smile
Take triplets or twins if they'll smile

[repeat chorus]
==========
Larry


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 18 23:58:54 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:58:54 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Phallic"
In-Reply-To: <200502180915.j1I9F5UQ030072@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.185854.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

phallic (OED 1789)

1733 Bernard Picart _The ceremonies and religious customs of the various
nations of the known world_ 20 (Eighteeenth Century Collections Online)
_Aristophanes_ in _Acharnan._ speaks of _Phallic_ Verses sung in Honour of
the _Phallas_, or _membrum virile_, which was carried in Pomp in the
_Bacchanalia_.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 19 00:02:53 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:02:53 -0500
Subject: Further Antedating of "Phallic"
In-Reply-To: <200502180915.j1I9F5UQ030072@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.190253.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

phallic (OED 1789)

1704 _Plutarchs Morals: translated from the Greek by several hands_ (ed.
4) IV. 94 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  They keep the Feast of
the _Pamylia_, which is a _Phallic_ or _Priapejan_ one.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 19 00:10:30 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:10:30 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Amnesia"
In-Reply-To: <200502180915.j1I9F5UQ030072@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.191030.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

amnesia (OED 1786)

1782 John Aitken _Elements of the theory and practice of physic and
surgery_ 520 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  Species of Amnesia.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 19 00:19:26 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:19:26 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Tourist"
In-Reply-To: <200502180915.j1I9F5UQ030072@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.191926.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

tourist (OED 1780)

1775 Thomas Quincey _A short tour in the midland counties of England_ 91
(Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  Every article of the work is made
to assist the others as much as possible, which (says a celebrated
tourist) "is the grand art of oeconomical management."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Sat Feb 19 02:22:07 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:22:07 -0600
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.202207.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi everyone.  We've discussed films in which language features
prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to compile is a list of
films in which the characters speak in dialects.  (for example,
"Fargo")  for my dialects class.  I'd like names of both films that
represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and those that don't,
since we're going to talk about dialects in the media at some point.  I
can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can think of more.  And I'm
thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than films like "American
Tongues."

Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by me and by my
students, who are enjoying the course a lot!

Thanks!

Patti Kurtz
Minot State University
--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 19 02:29:59 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:29:59 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Nostalgia"
In-Reply-To: <200502190019.j1J0J3CH001114@pantheon-po06.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.212959.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

nostalgia (OED 1756)

1729 Jonathan Harle _An historical essay on the state of physick in the
Old and New Testament_ 70 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  _Desire
of being at home._ ... _Alberti's Introd. Med._ p. 415. where it is
described, and called _Nostalgia_.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 19 02:32:54 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:32:54 -0500
Subject: Another Antedating of "Nostalgia"
In-Reply-To: <200502190019.j1J0J3CH001114@pantheon-po06.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.213254.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

nostalgia (OED3 1756)

1754 Richard Brookes _An Introduction to Physic and Surgery_ 54
(Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  NOSTALGIA is a Kind of
_Melancholy_ arising from a Desire of returning to the Country in which
the Patient was born.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Feb 19 02:41:58 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:41:58 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.184158.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Sergeant York" (1941).  Great movie, utterly wrong "East Tennessee" accents:    Gary Cooper (Helena, MT), Walter Brennan (Swampscott, MA), Joan Leslie (Detroit, MI / Los Angeles, CA), and Margaret Wycherly (London, Eng.) turn in fine performances anyway. Comic-relief George Tobias (NYC) sounds better as a working-class New Yorker of the period - or so it seems to me.

JL

"Patti J. Kurtz" <kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz"
Subject: Dialects in film
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi everyone. We've discussed films in which language features
prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to compile is a list of
films in which the characters speak in dialects. (for example,
"Fargo") for my dialects class. I'd like names of both films that
represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and those that don't,
since we're going to talk about dialects in the media at some point. I
can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can think of more. And I'm
thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than films like "American
Tongues."

Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by me and by my
students, who are enjoying the course a lot!

Thanks!

Patti Kurtz
Minot State University
--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Feb 19 02:51:52 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:51:52 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.185152.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I understand that Dick Van Dyke's Cockney in "Mary Poppins" is regarded as appalling by many English people.

In fact, most stars before the age of intensive dialect coaching just muddled through "dialect" roles.  Kevin Costner (CA) was ridiculed for his "Hyannisport" accent in "Fourteen Days," but to a geezer saturated in the JFK era, he seemed OK.

Gwyneth Paltrow (CA / MA) as "Emma" ? She sure fooled me !

JL

"Patti J. Kurtz" <kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz"
Subject: Dialects in film
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi everyone. We've discussed films in which language features
prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to compile is a list of
films in which the characters speak in dialects. (for example,
"Fargo") for my dialects class. I'd like names of both films that
represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and those that don't,
since we're going to talk about dialects in the media at some point. I
can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can think of more. And I'm
thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than films like "American
Tongues."

Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by me and by my
students, who are enjoying the course a lot!

Thanks!

Patti Kurtz
Minot State University
--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb 19 03:38:14 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:38:14 EST
Subject: "Call me a cab/taxi" (1901)
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.223814.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This probably comes from a humor magazine such as Life, Puck, Judge, or  
Texas Siftings. Here it is in the mouth of a famous American.
...
...
...
...
(GOOGLE)
_The  Coffee Place's Joke Stack_ (http://www.thecoffeepla
ce.com/Jokes/aaaaabjk.html) 
The Coffee Place's Joke  Stack. "Call me a taxi," said the fat man. "Okay,"  
said
the doorman. "You're a taxi, but you look  more like a truck to me." ... ... 
www.thecoffeeplace.com/Jokes/aaaaabjk.html - 2k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:TqttnGezcvgJ:www.thecoffeeplace.com/Jokes/aaaaabjk.html+"ca
ll+me+a+taxi"+"you're+a+taxi&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.thecoffeeplace.com/Jokes/aaaa
abjk.html)         
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
_MR.  CHOATE ARRAIGNED BEFORE THE LOTOS CLUB; Pleads Guilty to Intense Joy at 
Being  Home Again. Mr. Carnegie Testifies to New York's Good Government -- 
Senator  Depew, ex-Speaker Reed, and Mark Twain Also Heard. _ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=117977107&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQ
D&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108781135&clientId=65882) 
New  York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 17, 1901. p. 3 (1  
page) 
...
Mr. Howland added another to the collection of Choate anecdotes the dinner  
brought forth.
...
"At a certain drawing room in London," said he, "a guest approached Mr.  
Choate, who was in the conventional dress of the English waiter, and said, 'Call  
me a cab.' 'All right,' said Mr. Choate, 'if you wish it. You're a cab.'"  
[Laughter.]
...
...
_A  Choate Story._ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=546785872&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108781801&client
Id=65882) 
The Atlanta Constitution  (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Jan 26, 1902. p. 7 (1 
page) 
...
(same as below, but from the Buffalo Commercial--ed.)
...
...
 
_Choate's  "Hansom" Apology._ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=546802432&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110878
1135&clientId=65882) 
The Atlanta Constitution  (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Feb 3, 1902. p. 5 (1 
page) 
...
Brooklyn Eagle: Now that Ambassador Choate has returned from "near the  Court 
of St. James," the following story, among many others about him,  is  in 
circulation: A semo-state reception was given at the residence of a certain  lord 
and Mr. Choate, in his "court dress" of plain broadcloth, was inconspicuous  
in comparison with the gold laced and insignia decorated representative of 
other  countries.
 
When the nigh was waning one of the departing guests, whose indulgence  
probably made him forget that English lackeys on such occasions were the livery  of 
their office, approached Mr. CHoate and requested him to call him a cab. The  
response was a blank stare. Upon his repeating the request: "Won;t you call 
me a  cab, please?" Mr. Choate responded: "Certainly. You're a cab." Imagine 
the  indignation of the insulted Englishman, who, upon making complaint to the 
host,  was asked, as a favor. to point out the offender.
 
After a search through the crowded saloons the Englishman was quite at the  
elbow of Mr. Choate when he exclaimed: "That's the man!" The whispered reply,  
"Why, that's the United States ambassador," was heard by Mr. Choate. Then a  
presentation and explanation of the unfortunate mistake. Mr. Choate, in his  
characteristic way, said: "My lord, the gentleman need not fell at all  
disturbed; I remember the circumstance very well. If the gentleman had been just  a 
little more polite I should have called him a 'hansom cab.'"
...
...
...
_http://www.bartleby.com/61/64/C0316400.html_ 
(http://www.bartleby.com/61/64/C0316400.html) 
...
Choate, Rufus
...
    DATES: 1799–1859   American politician who served as a U.S. 
representative  (1831–1834) and senator (1841–1845) from Massachusetts. His son Joseph  
Hodges Choate (1832–1917) was ambassador to Great Britain (1899–1905).  


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 19 03:54:54 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:54:54 -0500
Subject: "Call me a cab/taxi" (1901)
In-Reply-To: <1df.35af1b35.2f480ea6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.225454.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:38 PM -0500 2/18/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>This probably comes from a humor magazine such as Life, Puck, Judge, or
>Texas Siftings. Here it is in the mouth of a famous American.
>...
>...
>...
>...
>(GOOGLE)
>_The  Coffee Place's Joke Stack_ (http://www.thecoffeepla
>ce.com/Jokes/aaaaabjk.html)
>The Coffee Place's Joke  Stack. "Call me a taxi," said the fat man. "Okay,"
>said
>the doorman. "You're a taxi, but you look  more like a truck to me." ... ...
>www.thecoffeeplace.com/Jokes/aaaaabjk.html - 2k - _Cached_

How about the local variant--

Make me a malted.
Pffft--you're a malted.

larry


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Feb 19 03:54:58 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:54:58 -0500
Subject: More from "Teen Lingo"
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.225458.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

reggin weed
   bad weed/marijuana.

  In the black collegiate slang of '50's Los Angeles, "reggin" was used
as a pseudo-euphemism for "nigger," which, of course, spelled backward,
is "reggin."

-Wilson Gray


From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM  Sat Feb 19 03:56:43 2005
From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:56:43 -0600
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.215643.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The movie Southern Comfort has a Cajun villain with an embarrassing Cajun
accent.  I don't know where the dialect is from but it is not Cajun.
Dennis Quaid in The Big Easy does an OK job with his part New Orleans/part
Cajun  dialect.
I have seen many movies but can't name any offhand  that have New Orleanians
speaking with a southern drawl, which they don't (unless they are from
somelwhere else)

Another movie I have enjoyed is Shipping News with Kevin Spacey..  I don't
know what dialect it is but its interesting.  Can anyone tell me more about
it????
JN


> Hi everyone. We've discussed films in which language features
> prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to compile is a list of
> films in which the characters speak in dialects. (for example,
> "Fargo") for my dialects class. I'd like names of both films that
> represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and those that don't,
> since we're going to talk about dialects in the media at some point. I
> can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can think of more. And I'm
> thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than films like "American
> Tongues."
>
> Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by me and by my
> students, who are enjoying the course a lot!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Patti Kurtz
> Minot State University
> --
>
> Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?
>
>
>
> Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.
>
>
>
> Freeman - It's called dedication.
>
>
>
> Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Sat Feb 19 04:34:02 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 23:34:02 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=22Call?= me a =?utf-8?Q?cab/taxi=22?= (1901)
In-Reply-To: <p04320400be3c68c7a46c@[130.132.231.157]>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.233402.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about the ancient joke (c. 1970).  A hippy (with all the implications,
esp. high), comes upon an accident.  The victim of the accident says: "call
me an amulance."  The hippy says, "Ok, man.  You're an ambulance."

These live on.  Any new ones?

Jim

Laurence Horn writes:

> At 10:38 PM -0500 2/18/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>> This probably comes from a humor magazine such as Life, Puck, Judge, or
>> Texas Siftings. Here it is in the mouth of a famous American.
>> ...
>> ...
>> ...
>> ...
>> (GOOGLE)
>> _The  Coffee Place's Joke Stack_ (http://www.thecoffeepla
>> ce.com/Jokes/aaaaabjk.html)
>> The Coffee Place's Joke  Stack. "Call me a taxi," said the fat man.
>> "Okay,"
>> said
>> the doorman. "You're a taxi, but you look  more like a truck to me." ...
>> ...
>> www.thecoffeeplace.com/Jokes/aaaaabjk.html - 2k - _Cached_
>
> How about the local variant--
>
> Make me a malted.
> Pffft--you're a malted.
>
> larry
>
>
> --
> This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered to improve
> security, as described below.
>
> Sanitizer (start="1108785300"):
>  ParseHeader ():
>    Ignored junk while parsing header:
>
>  SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"):
>    Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"):
>      Enforced policy: accept
>
>
> See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information.



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From pds at VISI.COM  Sat Feb 19 05:08:18 2005
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 23:08:18 -0600
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <20050219035702.ADDF25D29@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.230818.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2/18/2005 09:56 PM -0600, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote:
>Another movie I have enjoyed is Shipping News with Kevin Spacey..  I don't
>know what dialect it is but its interesting.  Can anyone tell me more about
>it????

Newfoundland.  According to the DVD, the actor playing the cop/firefighter
in yellow rain gear at the scene of the accident, which was Spacey's first
reporting assignment, was a local.  He also served as dialect
coach.  Anyway, the rest of the cast who are supposed to be locals do sound
a lot like him.  The producers and director speak with pride that the cast
"nailed the accent."

One of my favorite exaggerated MN accents can be found in the mouths of
nearly all the characters in "Drop Dead Gorgeous" (1999)  Actually, I have
heard an accent that extreme in real life, but it was in central WI.

I'll let others judge the accuracy, but I sure have fun listening to the
Bronx or Brooklyn accents of Joe Pesci and Marisa Tomei in "My Cousin
Vinny" (1992).



   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
           http://www.visi.com/~pds


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb 19 05:30:18 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:30:18 EST
Subject: "Make me a malted" (1956); "Call me an ambulance" (1986)
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.003018.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_Walter  Winchell . . . OF NEW YORK; Broadway Melody _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=121285796&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQ
T=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108790617&clientId=65882)
The  Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: May 24,
1956. p. 59 (1 page)
...
Miami Beach Vignette: A Bronx lady ( the look-a-like of Molly Goldberg) was
wandering along the beach and came across an old lamp...She didn't know it was
 Aladdin's...She picked it up--rubbed off the sand and a huge Genii
appeared...The frightened woman started to weep..."Don't be afraid," comforted  Mr.
Genii, "I am your servant. I will get you anything you want. Just name your
slightest desire"..."Please," she said, "make me a malted"..."Okay," was the
retort, "you're a Malted!"
...
...
_An  Author Takes His Book on the Road; A Book On the Road _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=128837912&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=12&VInst=PROD&VType=
PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108789455&clientId=65882)
By E. Fuller Torrey The author, a Washington psychiatrist, toured  16 cities
to promote his book "Surviving Schizophrenia" (Harper & Row). Here  is his ac-
count of how he survived the tour:. The  Washington Post (1974-Current file).
Washington, D.C.: Apr 13, 1986. p.  BW1 (2 pages)
Pg. BWi, col. 1:
I WAS staring straight ahead at the Romper Room set, the big block
letters--J K L M N--on the wall. Any minute I expected to see Upoff round the  corner
("I'm sick. Could you call me an ambulance?") followed by Granny ("OK,  you're
an ambulance").


From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM  Sat Feb 19 05:50:56 2005
From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 23:50:56 -0600
Subject: Chesapeake Bay dialects dying:   Washington Post.
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.235056.0600.>

Bay's Dialects Slowly Dying
As Watermen Leave and Washington Encroaches, Distinct Sounds Disappear

By David A. Fahrenthold
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, February 19, 2005; Page A01
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36333-2005Feb18.htm
(Registration required; but you can get to it via http://bugmenot.com)

  Linguists are careful to stress that there is not one single
Chesapeake Bay dialect but rather a vast array of different accents and
vocabularies.

There are distinctively southern speakers, like Tidewater Virginians who
say "kyar" when they mean "car." Further north are the residents of
"Bawlmer, Merlin," and along the Eastern Shore, in isolated waterman's
communities, people turn "wife" into "wuife."

But to the west of this cacophony, there is Washington -- a demographic
behemoth, breaker of dialects.

--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Decluttering: http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Sat Feb 19 06:35:53 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:35:53 -0600
Subject: "history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes"
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.003553.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Discussion at:
http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_02_13-2005_02_19.shtml#1108756279


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Feb 19 13:53:18 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 05:53:18 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.055318.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I agree about Pesci (Newark, NJ) and Tomei (NYC).

Comic characters are hard to judge. Some of what seems to be their "accent" often comes from their exaggerated delivery.  Phonetically, though, these two are naturals.

Robert De Niro and Al Pacino are New Yorkers too. So was John Garfield. Their screen accents are entirely authentic.  Holly Hunter is from Conyers, GA, and is also "real" in most of her roles.  Will Geer (Frankfort, IN) was certainly passable (to me) as Grandpa Walton of WV.

JL
Tom Kysilko <pds at VISI.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Tom Kysilko

Subject: Re: Dialects in film
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 2/18/2005 09:56 PM -0600, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote:
>Another movie I have enjoyed is Shipping News with Kevin Spacey.. I don't
>know what dialect it is but its interesting. Can anyone tell me more about
>it????

Newfoundland. According to the DVD, the actor playing the cop/firefighter
in yellow rain gear at the scene of the accident, which was Spacey's first
reporting assignment, was a local. He also served as dialect
coach. Anyway, the rest of the cast who are supposed to be locals do sound
a lot like him. The producers and director speak with pride that the cast
"nailed the accent."

One of my favorite exaggerated MN accents can be found in the mouths of
nearly all the characters in "Drop Dead Gorgeous" (1999) Actually, I have
heard an accent that extreme in real life, but it was in central WI.

I'll let others judge the accuracy, but I sure have fun listening to the
Bronx or Brooklyn accents of Joe Pesci and Marisa Tomei in "My Cousin
Vinny" (1992).



Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services
pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA
http://www.visi.com/~pds

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From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM  Sat Feb 19 14:59:26 2005
From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:59:26 -0500
Subject: Chesapeake Bay dialects dying:   Washington Post
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.095926.0500.ABARAGONA@SPRYNET.COM>

If you have trouble getting the article online, here it is.  The print
version has a couple of nice charts that don't appear in the online version.

Recently, there were a couple of postings on the list about "among" as
"between."  This mentions a usage I've never heard of, "among-ye" for
"y'all."

Alan

----- Original Message -----

 Bay's Dialects Slowly Dying

 By David A. Fahrenthold

  Years ago, before the watermen had to become bus drivers and the crab
shanties were replaced by new red-brick houses, everybody on St. George
Island knew about the arster, the kitchen and the sun dog.

 The arster, of course, was a bivalve -- called an "oyster" by some
people -- often found here at the remote south end of St. Mary's County.
"The kitchen" was a spot in the Chesapeake Bay where arsters were caught.
And a "sun dog" was a haze that portended bad weather, a sign it was time to
leave the kitchen and head home.

 These words were part of the island's local dialect, one of many
distinctive ways of speaking that grew up over the centuries in isolated
areas across the bay.

 But now, like many of the other dialects, St. George-ese is fading. Many of
the watermen who spoke it have left, and in their place are newcomers from
the Washington suburbs and elsewhere.

 "They don't know about sun dogs anymore," said Jack Russell, a native of
the area. "Half of them don't even know that the sun rises in the east and
sets in the west."

 Experts say that the dialects, which encoded years of memories and
tradition in small communities, are eroding under pressure from expanding
suburbs and a declining dependence on the bay.

 Now, linguists are trying to record and preserve these ways of speech. They
fear that soon the bay will be overtaken by a suburb's interchangeable sense
of place -- and that the land and language here will be the same as anywhere
else.

 "The change in the dialect is so reflective of the demographic change,"
said Emma Trentman, who studied Calvert County's dialect as a Georgetown
University graduate student. "When you use the dialect, you're basically
using a piece of history."

 Linguists are careful to stress that there is not one single Chesapeake Bay
dialect but rather a vast array of accents and vocabularies.

 There are distinctively southern speakers, like Tidewater Virginians who
say "kyar" when they mean "car." Further north are the residents of
"Bawlmer, Merlin," and along the Eastern Shore, in isolated waterman's
communities, people turn "wife" into "wuife."

 But to the west of this cacophony, there is Washington -- a demographic
behemoth, breaker of dialects.

 Almost 50 percent of the region's residents were born in a state other than
the one where they live, which is more than other big cities and close to
twice the national average. Linguistically, that means "nobody really has
any idea what Washington, D.C., is," said David Bowie, a linguistics
professor at the University of Central Florida.

 Linguists say this kind of dialect confusion is spreading to Southern
Maryland, where tobacco fields and country stores have been giving way to
subdivisions and Starbucks. In Calvert County and in the Charles County town
of Waldorf, studies have found that southern pronunciations such as "tam"
for "time" are disappearing.

 Also declining is the lingo of tobacco farming, because many farmers have
taken a state buyout.

 Hagner R. Mister, a longtime Calvert tobacco farmer and former Maryland
secretary of agriculture, said the term "stripping room" -- a place where
tobacco leaves were taken off the stalk -- used to be common parlance.

 Now, the phrase gets him funny looks. "People would say, 'Did I
misunderstand you?' " Mister said. " 'Stripping room?' "

 Across the country, linguists say, big cities such as Baltimore and New
York safeguard dialects because native speakers are usually talking to one
another. But in an area quickly turning into suburbs, such as Southern
Maryland, every conversation with an outsider can exert a subtle pressure.

 "If you realize that everywhere you're likely to go, there's a different
norm, there's incentive . . . to change the way you talk a little bit," said
Bowie, who studied Waldorf.

 So far, there's been no comprehensive linguistic study of the bay's
dialects to see if they're all facing the same fate as Southern Maryland
speech. But changes have been noted by old-timers and local historians
across the area.

 Northern Neck native W. Tayloe Murphy Jr. -- the Virginia secretary of
natural resources -- said residents used to say they lived "in" the Northern
Neck. Now, he said, many say "on," as outsiders do.

 In Delaware, historian Russ McCabe said he's seen the decline of
"among-ye," which was that state's rare way of saying "y'all." One of the
few times he's heard it recently was at a church in Gumboro, in south
Delaware.

 "This older fella looked at me and [said], 'Are among-ye going to stay for
supper?' " said McCabe, who works for the state public archives. "I had a
moment there, a twinge of almost sadness, because I hadn't heard that in 20
years."

 St. George Island, a skinny strip of land two hours from the District,
provides a microcosm of the region's changes. It once supported a thriving
oyster industry, but then disease and pollution devastated the oyster crop.

 Watermen left to seek other jobs, and new people came after sewer lines
were extended there in 1990.

 "They're just smotherin' us," said Russell, a native who stayed behind.
"We're getting yuppi-tized."

 Russell said the new residents have no reason to know the names of nearby
oyster bars or the points of land that watermen used as landmarks. To the
new people, he said, water is water. It's scenery.

 The most prominent exception to these changes is Smith Island, Md., a
marshy place with about 360 residents, reachable only by ferry.

 Here, with a brogue that's been steeped in decades of isolation, Smith
Islanders render house as "hace" and brown as "brain." They use words that
are relics of the British English used by American colonists, such as
"progging" -- which means to poke around the marshes looking for arrowheads.

 University researchers were surprised recently to find that young Smith
Islanders actually have a stronger accent than their parents. The
researchers and islanders said they believe the change was a conscious
attempt to assert the island's culture in the face of declining catches and
rising water levels.

  "They act like they want to be heard with it," said Jennings Evans, 74, a
retired waterman and Smith Island's unofficial historian.

 But when the ferry takes him to Crisfield, Md., on the mainland, Evans said
he sees the way the rest of the bay is going.

 He said Crisfield's natives used to have a nasal, whiny way of talking --
which sounded funny, even to a man who pronounces "sound" as "saned." But
now, Evans said, he can hear it changing.

 "Their whinin', " he said, "is declinin'."



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From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sat Feb 19 16:05:20 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:05:20 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <4216A2CF.2050807@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.110520.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Dr. Strangelove comes to mind as having a great range of accents -- the
most curious of which was probably Sellers' as President  Whatsis.
A. Murie


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Feb 19 16:52:55 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:52:55 -0600
Subject: "Coca-Cola"/"Coke"  (in Tanzania) = something easy, a given,
 no problem
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.105255.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The interesting item below is excerpted from an email I received recently from the daughter of one of my university colleagues (many thanks). The instances of three dots are all present in the original email. Also, just how the semantic development occurred is not entirely clear to me (somehow from the pause that refreshes?).

Gerald Cohen

When I was in Tanzania (TZ) I was speaking with my guide about all kinds of cultural points of interest, and this came up in conversation around a political race that was in progress at the time.  This particular candidate was a sure thing for winning the seat.  Everyone knew it and
called it, "Coke."  I was told that in TZ, when something is "easy," or "a-given...no-problem...of-course"...you get the picture...that often times it's referred to as "Coke-a-Cola."  It's become common thing, one which everyone understands and uses pretty freely.  This has gone on to
the extent that there is even a route up Kilimanjaro, the Marangu route, that has been dubbed the, "Coke," route.  (That should be taken with a big piece of rock salt though...this route is 3 days, and has less than a 50% success rate because the ascent is too fast for humans to
acclimatize to the lower O2 levels above 10,000-15,000 feet.  It's just the shortest route, and the route most commonly taken as a result.)

Cheers,
Kaki Trimble
Tanzania Safari Specialist

Thomson Safaris
Committed and Connected to Tanzania for 24 Years
14 Mount Auburn Street
Watertown, MA 02472
www.thomsonsafaris.com
1-800-235-0289 / 617-923-0426


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Sat Feb 19 17:03:37 2005
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 12:03:37 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.120337.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mississippi Masala
yay!  * this would be good for a number of language reasons, but for your purpose here, portrayal of the white characters, all (or almost all) of whom are bit parts

beth

beth lee simon, ph.d.
associate professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
fort wayne, in 46805-1499
u.s.
voice (011) 260 481 6761; fax (011) 260 481 6985
email simon at ipfw.edu


>>> kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET 2/18/2005 9:22:07 PM >>>
Hi everyone.  We've discussed films in which language features
prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to compile is a list of
films in which the characters speak in dialects.  (for example,
"Fargo")  for my dialects class.  I'd like names of both films that
represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and those that don't,
since we're going to talk about dialects in the media at some point.  I
can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can think of more.  And I'm
thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than films like "American
Tongues."

Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by me and by my
students, who are enjoying the course a lot!

Thanks!

Patti Kurtz
Minot State University
--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Sat Feb 19 17:04:14 2005
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 12:04:14 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.120414.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

hi patti,

when you get all the responses, would you post a list to the list
please

beth

>>> kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET 2/18/2005 9:22:07 PM >>>
Hi everyone.  We've discussed films in which language features
prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to compile is a list of
films in which the characters speak in dialects.  (for example,
"Fargo")  for my dialects class.  I'd like names of both films that
represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and those that don't,
since we're going to talk about dialects in the media at some point.
I
can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can think of more.  And
I'm
thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than films like "American
Tongues."

Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by me and by my
students, who are enjoying the course a lot!

Thanks!

Patti Kurtz
Minot State University
--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


From daisydancer99 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Feb 19 17:57:33 2005
From: daisydancer99 at YAHOO.COM (daisy dancer)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:57:33 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.095733.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not sure where he is supposed to be from, but Dustin Hoffman [and the Judge for that matter] have Southern accents in Runaway Jury which shouldn't be the case if they are from New Orleans.  I know the book was originally set in Biloxi, MS, so maybe that started the confusion but I have yet to find a film that accurately depicts the New Orleans working class or Yat dialect.  Any thoughts?

Janis Vizier Nihart <tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart
Subject: Re: Dialects in film
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The movie Southern Comfort has a Cajun villain with an embarrassing Cajun
accent. I don't know where the dialect is from but it is not Cajun.
Dennis Quaid in The Big Easy does an OK job with his part New Orleans/part
Cajun dialect.
I have seen many movies but can't name any offhand that have New Orleanians
speaking with a southern drawl, which they don't (unless they are from
somelwhere else)

Another movie I have enjoyed is Shipping News with Kevin Spacey.. I don't
know what dialect it is but its interesting. Can anyone tell me more about
it????
JN


> Hi everyone. We've discussed films in which language features
> prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to compile is a list of
> films in which the characters speak in dialects. (for example,
> "Fargo") for my dialects class. I'd like names of both films that
> represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and those that don't,
> since we're going to talk about dialects in the media at some point. I
> can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can think of more. And I'm
> thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than films like "American
> Tongues."
>
> Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by me and by my
> students, who are enjoying the course a lot!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Patti Kurtz
> Minot State University
> --
>
> Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?
>
>
>
> Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.
>
>
>
> Freeman - It's called dedication.
>
>
>
> Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>


It's a luscious mix of words and tricks
That let us bet when you know we should fold -- The Shins
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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Feb 19 18:32:43 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:32:43 -0500
Subject: "Call me a cab/taxi" (1901)
In-Reply-To: <E1D2MJi-00018Q-00@mx10.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.133243.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Isn't the protagonist in this class of joke referred to as a "hipster"?
Or is this a dialect split between blacks and whites? Here are a couple
from the '50's.

Hipster standing at the bus stop.
Square walks up, asks the hipster,
"Crosstown bus pass this way?"
Hipster answers, "Doo-dah. Doo-dah.

Hipster watches a square do push-ups.
Finally, he taps the square on his shoulder and says,
"You might as well stop now, man.
"Your girl, she been done gone."

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 18, 2005, at 11:34 PM, James C Stalker wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       James C Stalker <stalker at MSU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: =?utf-8?Q?=22Call?= me a =?utf-8?Q?cab/taxi=22?=
> (1901)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> How about the ancient joke (c. 1970).  A hippy (with all the
> implications,
> esp. high), comes upon an accident.  The victim of the accident says:
> "call
> me an amulance."  The hippy says, "Ok, man.  You're an ambulance."
>
> These live on.  Any new ones?
>
> Jim
>
> Laurence Horn writes:
>
>> At 10:38 PM -0500 2/18/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>>> This probably comes from a humor magazine such as Life, Puck, Judge,
>>> or
>>> Texas Siftings. Here it is in the mouth of a famous American.
>>> ...
>>> ...
>>> ...
>>> ...
>>> (GOOGLE)
>>> _The  Coffee Place's Joke Stack_ (http://www.thecoffeepla
>>> ce.com/Jokes/aaaaabjk.html)
>>> The Coffee Place's Joke  Stack. "Call me a taxi," said the fat man.
>>> "Okay,"
>>> said
>>> the doorman. "You're a taxi, but you look  more like a truck to me."
>>> ...
>>> ...
>>> www.thecoffeeplace.com/Jokes/aaaaabjk.html - 2k - _Cached_
>>
>> How about the local variant--
>>
>> Make me a malted.
>> Pffft--you're a malted.
>>
>> larry
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered to improve
>> security, as described below.
>>
>> Sanitizer (start="1108785300"):
>>  ParseHeader ():
>>    Ignored junk while parsing header:
>>
>>  SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"):
>>    Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"):
>>      Enforced policy: accept
>>
>>
>> See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information.
>
>
>
> James C. Stalker
> Department of English
> Michigan State University
>


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Sat Feb 19 18:09:03 2005
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:09:03 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <4216A2CF.2050807@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.130903.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about the Billy Bob Thornton movie "Sling Blade"?  It's set in
Arkansas, I believe, and Thornton's from there.

At 08:22 PM 2/18/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>Hi everyone.  We've discussed films in which language features
>prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to compile is a list of
>films in which the characters speak in dialects.  (for example,
>"Fargo")  for my dialects class.  I'd like names of both films that
>represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and those that don't,
>since we're going to talk about dialects in the media at some point.  I
>can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can think of more.  And I'm
>thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than films like "American
>Tongues."
>
>Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by me and by my
>students, who are enjoying the course a lot!
>
>Thanks!
>
>Patti Kurtz
>Minot State University
>--
>
>Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?
>
>
>
>Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.
>
>
>
>Freeman - It's called dedication.
>
>
>
>Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Feb 19 19:08:03 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:08:03 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.140803.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone mentioned Frank Sinatra from Hoboken, NJ?  Did he use his
native dialect in some of his gangster roles?

David

barnhart at highlands.com



American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Saturday, February
19, 2005 at 8:53 AM  wrote:


>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Dialects in film
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I agree about Pesci (Newark, NJ) and Tomei (NYC).
>
>Comic characters are hard to judge. Some of what seems to be their
>"accent" often comes from their exaggerated delivery.  Phonetically,
>though, these two are naturals.
>
>Robert De Niro and Al Pacino are New Yorkers too. So was John Garfield.
>Their screen accents are entirely authentic.  Holly Hunter is from
>Conyers, GA, and is also "real" in most of her roles.  Will Geer
>(Frankfort, IN) was certainly passable (to me) as Grandpa Walton of WV.
>
>JL
>Tom Kysilko <pds at VISI.COM> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Tom Kysilko
>
>Subject: Re: Dialects in film
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>At 2/18/2005 09:56 PM -0600, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote:
>>Another movie I have enjoyed is Shipping News with Kevin Spacey.. I don't
>>know what dialect it is but its interesting. Can anyone tell me more
>about
>>it????
>
>Newfoundland. According to the DVD, the actor playing the cop/firefighter
>in yellow rain gear at the scene of the accident, which was Spacey's first
>reporting assignment, was a local. He also served as dialect
>coach. Anyway, the rest of the cast who are supposed to be locals do sound
>a lot like him. The producers and director speak with pride that the cast
>"nailed the accent."
>
>One of my favorite exaggerated MN accents can be found in the mouths of
>nearly all the characters in "Drop Dead Gorgeous" (1999) Actually, I have
>heard an accent that extreme in real life, but it was in central WI.
>
>I'll let others judge the accuracy, but I sure have fun listening to the
>Bronx or Brooklyn accents of Joe Pesci and Marisa Tomei in "My Cousin
>Vinny" (1992).
>
>
>
>Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services
>pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA
>http://www.visi.com/~pds
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Feb 19 20:45:08 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 15:45:08 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.154508.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers could,
would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that "y'all"
*is* used as a singular.

In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
and Fort Worth.

I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan area
in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows that
East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
English.

So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
white.

-Wilson Gray


From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM  Sun Feb 20 00:10:29 2005
From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:10:29 -0600
Subject: "Y'all" redux
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.181029.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As a white  South Louisianian, I have never heard "Y'all" as a singular
pronoun, but the use of "y'all's" and "y'all" as a possessive pronoun is
used.(I passed by y'all's/ y'all house yesterday, but y'all weren't home.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:45 PM
Subject: "Y'all" redux


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> Subject:      "Y'all" redux
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers could,
> would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
> posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
> Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
> agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
> his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
> use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that "y'all"
> *is* used as a singular.
>
> In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
> that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
> and Fort Worth.
>
> I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
> farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
> description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan area
> in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows that
> East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
> English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
> English.
>
> So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
> depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
> white.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Sun Feb 20 01:15:28 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:15:28 -0600
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.191528.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I already ragged DeNiro for his bad southern accent in the Cape Fear remake.  I just saw a bit of Al Pacino in "People I Know"; again, a bad southern accent from a New Yorker.  

On the other hand, Robin Wright Penn nailed a southern accent in "Toys".

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Jonathan Lighter
Sent: Sat 2/19/2005 7:53 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject:      Re: Dialects in film

Robert De Niro and Al Pacino are New Yorkers too.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 03:36:43 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 22:36:43 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Geologist"
In-Reply-To: <200502190635.j1J6Zt3K032080@pantheon-po06.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.223643.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

geologist (OED 1795)

1792 Albanis Beaumont _Travels Through the Rhaetian Alps_ 8 (Eighteenth
Century Collections Online)  The geologist will do well to examine the
coast.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 03:32:25 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 22:32:25 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Sexuality"
In-Reply-To: <200502190635.j1J6Zt3K032080@pantheon-po06.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.223225.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

sexuality (OED a1800)

1797 John Walker _Elements of Geography_ (ed. 3) (Eighteenth Century
Collections Online)  The Linnaean system ... is founded on the sexuality
of plants.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 03:29:03 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 22:29:03 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Nymphomania"
In-Reply-To: <200502190635.j1J6Zt3K032080@pantheon-po06.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.222903.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

nymphomania (OED3 1775)

1702 Steven Blankaart _The Physical Dictionary_ 218 (Eighteenth Century
Collections Online)  _Nymphomania_, the same that _Furor Uterimes_.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Sun Feb 20 00:59:11 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:59:11 -0600
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <200502191614.6af4217ac4838b@rly-na06.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.185911.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Will do-- I'll give it a week or so to make sure everyone gets a chance
to contribute.

Patti

simon at IPFW.EDU wrote:

>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Beth Simon <simon at IPFW.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: Dialects in film
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>hi patti,
>
>when you get all the responses, would you post a list to the list
>please
>
>beth
>
>
>
>>>>kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET 2/18/2005 9:22:07 PM >>>
>>>>
>>>>
>Hi everyone.  We've discussed films in which language features
>prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to compile is a list of
>films in which the characters speak in dialects.  (for example,
>"Fargo")  for my dialects class.  I'd like names of both films that
>represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and those that don't,
>since we're going to talk about dialects in the media at some point.
>I
>can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can think of more.  And
>I'm
>thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than films like "American
>Tongues."
>
>Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by me and by my
>students, who are enjoying the course a lot!
>
>Thanks!
>
>Patti Kurtz
>Minot State University
>--
>
>Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?
>
>
>
>Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.
>
>
>
>Freeman - It's called dedication.
>
>
>
>Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.
>
>

--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 01:13:04 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:13:04 -0800
Subject: "infamous" = famous
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.171304.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Becoming endemic but not in OED, "infamous" as "well-known; famous" :

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/tm_objectid=15204502&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=futuristic-makeover-for-bugs-bunny-and-co-name_page.html

"Carrot-chomping Bugs Bunny is joined by animated favourites Daffy Duck, Wile E Coyote, the Tasmanian Devil, Road Runner and Lola Bunny.

"However, hardcore fans are in for a shock - the trademark characteristics will be gone, as will their infamous names.

"Bugs is set to be renamed Buzz Bunny, while Daffy Duck will sport a built-in sonar."

"Futuristic makeover for Bugs Bunny and Co," icWales, the national website of Wales,(
Feb. 18, 2005.

(The story reported is itself worthy of infamy  - in the old sense.)

JL















__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb 20 10:23:27 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 05:23:27 EST
Subject: More "Hawkins" (umpteenth ADS-L try)
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.052327.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ADS-L is broken. Here's a re-post of something I tried to send half a day
ago.
Barry Popik
(Leaving town for a week. Just what I want on vacation--piles and piles of
formerly un-sent ADS-L e-mails.)
...

...
(GOOGLE)
NYPL, The New Yorker Records
Killed 1951 A REPORTER  AT LARGE 14 "Nobody Home." Run 3/21/46 15 "Making
Buckle
and Tongue Meet."  Run 8/24/46 16 "Hawkins is Inside." Run 11/30/46 17 "Not a
...
www.nypl.org/research/chss/ spe/rbk/faids/NYhtml/nybox602.htm - 96k -
Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

1407     ROUECHE, Berton
ANNALS OF MEDICINE
1             "The Case of the Eleven Blue Men." Run 6/5/48
2     "The Fog."  Run 9/30/50
3            "A Pinch of Dust."  Run  6/23/51
4            "Birds of a  Feather."  Run 4/18/53
5           "Lost."  Run 6/19/54
6         "One of the Lucky Ones."  Run 2/26/55
7            "Ten Feet Tall."  Run  9/10/55
8            "The  Incurable Wound."  Run 4/6/57
9         "Labyrinthitis."  Run 4/5/58
PROFILES
10           Frank E. Denison.  Run 1/15/49
11     Everett Joshua Edwards.  Run 9/24/49
12            Louis Haft.  Run  5/23/53
13            William  Fanning Halsey.  Killed 1951
A  REPORTER AT LARGE
14             "Nobody Home."  Run 3/21/46
15     "Making Buckle and Tongue Meet." Run  8/24/46
16            "Hawkins is  Inside."  Run 11/30/46


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

Subj:   "Hawkins" in Tamony papers; Big Apple Club (1934)
Date:     2/19/2005 7:40:36 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:    Bapopik
To:    ADS-L at listserv.uga.edu



OT  MISC.

TRAVEL: I will be in the Dominican Republic from February 20-27  with my
sister. She goes there for treatments for her autistic son. Normally,  I'd wish
that my plane would crash, but my sister is actually worth more alive  than dead.

BIG APPLE-WORLD'S SECOND HOME: I wrote another letter to the  New Orleans
Times-Picayune about the Big Apple's origin there, and I asked them  to honor the
black stablehands (during Black History Month). I guess it wasn't  good
enough to be published (again)...I wrote a letter to the New York Times  about the
"World's Second Home." I said that "Big Apple" originally meant the  pinnacle
is sports. That wasn't published, either, although I received an e-mail  from
Ellis Hennican ("Why Apple?" his story went) that I should send it to
Newsday...I inexplicably got thousands of hits on my web site yesterday for  "World's
Most Famous Arena." The entry is so old that it has "Welcome  Republicans!"
on it, from July  2004.

--------------------------------------------------------------
BIG  APPLE CLUB

7 July 1934, New York Amsterdam News, pg. 9, col. 1:
"This  Hectic Harlem" by Roi Ottley
(...)
The Big Apple has arrived and is worth  your time.


This is the earliest I have for the Big Apple Club (135th  Street and 7th
Avenue/Adam Clayton Powell Junior Boulevard).

I had read  the Amsterdam News for this period about fifteen years ago, but I
went through  the newspaper again briefly today. Roi Ottley called Harlem the
"Coal Bin" (not  in HDAS?). He also used terms like "Cornflakes Boulevard"
(not in HDAS?). I'm  looking for "Hawkins" somewhere in  1934.

--------------------------------------------------------------
HAWKINS  IN TAMONY PAPERS

Gerald Cohen helped to pay for this (I thought he would  get a discount?) and
it arrived today. Here goes:


Here are the  photocpies of the term "Hawkins" found in the Peter Tamony
Collection (C3939). I  did not photocopy any of the "Hawk" clipping because the
majority of those  referred to either the bird, military equipment, or to the
Vietnam War with the  term "hawks and doves". The charge for photocopying was
credited to Gerald  Cohen's account.

Mary Beth Brown
Manuscript Specialist
Western  Historical Manuscript Collection
BroMary at umsystem.edu


CARD ONE:
JIVE TALK (Regular column).
MISTER HAWKINS--The wind,  wintertime, cold weather, ice, snow.
RHYTHM AND BLUES (Onyx Publishing Co.,  Derby, Conn.).
December 1954: Vol. 1, No. 15, p. 20/1.


CARD  TWO:
Down the Spillway. John O'Ren
Baltimore Sun, Dec. 21, p. 14 and Dec.  27, p. 8, 1934;
Jan. 5, p. 10, Jan. 8, p. 10, Jan. 9, p. 10 and Jan. 12, pg.  10, 1935.

A series of comments and letters regarding the use in Maryland  and Virginia
of the expression _Hawkins is outside_ or _Hawkins is coming_,  meaning the
chill weather is coming.

American Speech, Bibliographical  Department, October, 1935, X, 3, 224/1.


CARD  THREE:
HAWKINS.
HAWKINS...Cold weather.
Jive and Slang of Students in  Negro Colleges.
Marcus H. Boulware, Hampton Institute, Virginia, January,  1947.


CARD FOUR:
HAWKINS.
"Hawkins is inside  tonight."
Compare--SNOW BLIND.


CARD  FIVE:
"HAWKINS IS INSIDE TONIGHT."
This expression is used by night club  musicians to indicate that things are
not going well, and got its start, so it  is said, with a drummer called
Hawkins. Hawkins was such a bad performer that  his fellow bandsmen took to
explaining away all their misfortunes by saying  "Hawkins is inside tonight."

What is the truth of this story.  B.  T.
May 30, 1947
AMERICAN NOTES AND QUERIES, April, 1947, VII, No. 1, p.  10/1.


LETTER

American Notes & Queries,
7 West  44th Street,
New York City 18, New York.

Gentlemen:

Relative to  HAWKINS IS INSIDE TONIGHT (VII, no. 1, p. 10/1):

THe following, from the  BIBLIOGRAPHY OF AMERICAN SPEECH, X, No. 3, p. 224/1,
October, 1935, may offer  come clue to the background of the above phrase:

Down the Spillway. John  O'Ren. (Apparently a column.)

Baltimore _Sun_, Dec. 21, p. 14 and Dec.  27, p. 8, 1934; Jan. 5, p. 10, Jan.
8, p. 10, Jan. 9, p. 10, and Jan. 12, P. 10,  1935.

A series of comments and letters regarding the use in Maryland and  Virginia
of the expression _Hawkins is outside_ or _Hawkins is coming_ meaning  the
chill weather is coming.


Chilly weather being the antithesis of a  "hot time," and extension of this
phrase would not be a great mental  effort.

The uninviting coldness and chill of an empty room is the source  of an
analagous expression among owners and employees of restaurants and night  clubs.
This is "snow-blindness," which such people are said to get from gazing
morosely at white-capped tables uninhabitated by hilarous, paying  guests.

Very truly yours

ANSWERS, Volume VII, page 26/1. Above  printed.


(JSTOR)
Brief Notices
American Speech > Vol. 10,  No. 3 (Oct., 1935), pp. 222-231
Pg. 224:
O'Ren, John. Down the Spillway.  Baltimore _Sun_, Dec. 21, p. 14 and Dec. 27,
p. 8, 1934; Jan. 5, p. 10, Jan. 8,  p. 10, Jan. 9, p. 10, and Jan. 12, p. 10,
1935)
A series of comments and  letters regarding the use in Maryland and Virginia
of the expression _Hawkins is  outside_ or _Hawkins is coming_, meaning that
chill weather is  coming.


(THOUGHTS: The Tamony papers really didn't provide us with  anything we don't
already have from our own AMERICAN SPEECH. I'll check out the  Baltimore Sun
articles and type them up here when I return. It'll make a nice  COMMENTS ON
ETYMOLOGY article...So it appears that "Windy City" comes from  Cincinnati and
"the Hawk" comes from Virginia! I might hop a Greyhound down  there and check
it out...I'll check the digitized AFRO-AMERICAN (Baltimore)  again. The
Baltimore Sun will be digitized by ProQuest some time in the next  five
years...Finally, this will all make the Chicago Tribune in about 2013, and  I will get no
credit, and I will be plagiarized by the Chicago Historical  Society and the
University of Chicago Press--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb 20 10:55:13 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 05:55:13 EST
Subject: More coinages from Google News
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.055513.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

These are 100% accurate! It's Google News!
OT: My ADS-L post went through! Hosannah!!!!
...
...

_Southwest's arrival offers cheap  getaways_ 
(http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/pmupdate/s_305224.html) 
Pittsburgh  Tribune-Review, PA -  <NOBR>Feb 18,  
... is the second-oldest  ballpark in the country. Fun fact: Chicago coined 
the term  "jazz" in 1914. When to book a flight: Check out ...  
...
_Gays must change attitudes that lead to dangerous  liaisons_ 
(http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/281632p-241337c.html) 
New York Daily  News, NY -  <NOBR>Feb 1
... Back in the 1960's, William Ryan of Boston College  coined the phrase 
"blaming the victim." It gave voice to a needed  concept, but it also silenced 
critics who ... 
...
_Why Baseball Should Let the Players Cheat_ 
(http://www.sports-central.org/sports/2005/02/17/why_baseball_should_let_the_players_cheat.php) 
Sports Central, VA -  <NOBR>Feb 17,
Former Arizona Cardinals head coach and  current Redskins coordinator Joe 
Bugle once coined  the phrase, "if you're not cheating, you're not trying." If  
that's ... 
...

_Two Big Bang Theory inspired Hawking on black  holes?_ 
(http://internationalreporter.com/news/read.php?id=497) 
International  Reporter, India -  <NOBR>Feb 16,  
... infinitely dense. "In 1967,  John Wheeler coined the term of "Black Hole" 
analyzing how a  star collapses to a singularity. Just after ... 
...
_'Ham and Eggs' Pension Plan Promised $30 a Week in  '30s_ 
(http://www.latimes.com/news/local/state/la-me-then13feb13,1,64488.story?coll=la-news-state) 
Los Angeles  Times, CA -  <NOBR>Feb 1
... The Allens hired broadcaster and orator Sherman  Bainbridge as a 
promoter. Some say it was Bainbridge who coined  the "Ham and Eggs" slogan. ... 
...
_Tom Penders, coaching Cougars with heart of a  champion_ 
(http://www.khou.com/sports/spotlight/stories/khou050217_gj_tompenders.ba25f96d.html) 
KHOU  (subscription), TX -  <NOBR>Feb 17,  
By Matt Musil / 11 Sports. It was Rudy  T. who coined the phrase, 'never 
underestimate the heart of  a champion.' The same could be said about Tom Penders. 
...  
...
_Blogs muddy line between work and personal  thought_ 
(http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/021305dnbusblogs.b7655.html) 
Dallas Morning  News (subscription), TX -  <NOBR>Feb 12,  
... Blog-related terminations  have apparently occurred enough that there is 
even a word for it – getting  "dooced." Blogger Heather Armstrong coined the 
phrase in  ... 


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Feb 20 01:22:35 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 20:22:35 -0500
Subject: [Bapopik@aol.com: Hawkins]
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.202235.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From Barry.


----- Forwarded message from Bapopik at aol.com -----

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Subj:    "Hawkins" in Tamony papers; Big Apple Club (1934)
  Date:    2/19/2005 7:40:36 PM Eastern Standard Time
  From:    Bapopik
  To:    ADS-L at listserv.uga.edu



OT MISC.

TRAVEL: I will be in the Dominican Republic from February 20-27 with my sister. She goes there for treatments for her autistic son. Normally, I'd wish that my plane would crash, but my sister is actually worth more alive than dead.

BIG APPLE-WORLD'S SECOND HOME: I wrote another letter to the New Orleans Times-Picayune about the Big Apple's origin there, and I asked them to honor the black stablehands (during Black History Month). I guess it wasn't good enough to be published (again)...I wrote a letter to the New York Times about the "World's Second Home." I said that "Big Apple" originally meant the pinnacle is sports. That wasn't published, either, although I received an e-mail from Ellis Hennican ("Why Apple?" his story went) that I should send it to Newsday...I inexplicably got thousands of hits on my web site yesterday for "World's Most Famous Arena." The entry is so old that it has "Welcome Republicans!" on it, from July 2004.

--------------------------------------------------------------
BIG APPLE CLUB

7 July 1934, New York Amsterdam News, pg. 9, col. 1:
"This Hectic Harlem" by Roi Ottley
(...)
The Big Apple has arrived and is worth your time.


This is the earliest I have for the Big Apple Club (135th Street and 7th Avenue/Adam Clayton Powell Junior Boulevard).

I had read the Amsterdam News for this period about fifteen years ago, but I went through the newspaper again briefly today. Roi Ottley called Harlem the "Coal Bin" (not in HDAS?). He also used terms like "Cornflakes Boulevard" (not in HDAS?). I'm looking for "Hawkins" somewhere in 1934.

--------------------------------------------------------------
HAWKINS IN TAMONY PAPERS

Gerald Cohen helped to pay for this (I thought he would get a discount?) and it arrived today. Here goes:


Here are the photocpies of the term "Hawkins" found in the Peter Tamony Collection (C3939). I did not photocopy any of the "Hawk" clipping because the majority of those referred to either the bird, military equipment, or to the Vietnam War with the term "hawks and doves". The charge for photocopying was credited to Gerald Cohen's account.

Mary Beth Brown
Manuscript Specialist
Western Historical Manuscript Collection
BroMary at umsystem.edu


CARD ONE:
JIVE TALK (Regular column).
MISTER HAWKINS--The wind, wintertime, cold weather, ice, snow.
RHYTHM AND BLUES (Onyx Publishing Co., Derby, Conn.).
December 1954: Vol. 1, No. 15, p. 20/1.


CARD TWO:
Down the Spillway. John O'Ren
Baltimore Sun, Dec. 21, p. 14 and Dec. 27, p. 8, 1934;
Jan. 5, p. 10, Jan. 8, p. 10, Jan. 9, p. 10 and Jan. 12, pg. 10, 1935.

A series of comments and letters regarding the use in Maryland and Virginia of the expression _Hawkins is outside_ or _Hawkins is coming_, meaning the chill weather is coming.

American Speech, Bibliographical Department, October, 1935, X, 3, 224/1.


CARD THREE:
HAWKINS.
HAWKINS...Cold weather.
Jive and Slang of Students in Negro Colleges.
Marcus H. Boulware, Hampton Institute, Virginia, January, 1947.


CARD FOUR:
HAWKINS.
"Hawkins is inside tonight."
Compare--SNOW BLIND.


CARD FIVE:
"HAWKINS IS INSIDE TONIGHT."
This expression is used by night club musicians to indicate that things are not going well, and got its start, so it is said, with a drummer called Hawkins. Hawkins was such a bad performer that his fellow bandsmen took to explaining away all their misfortunes by saying "Hawkins is inside tonight."

What is the truth of this story.  B. T.
May 30, 1947
AMERICAN NOTES AND QUERIES, April, 1947, VII, No. 1, p. 10/1.


LETTER

American Notes & Queries,
7 West 44th Street,
New York City 18, New York.

Gentlemen:

Relative to HAWKINS IS INSIDE TONIGHT (VII, no. 1, p. 10/1):

THe following, from the BIBLIOGRAPHY OF AMERICAN SPEECH, X, No. 3, p. 224/1, October, 1935, may offer come clue to the background of the above phrase:

Down the Spillway. John O'Ren. (Apparently a column.)

Baltimore _Sun_, Dec. 21, p. 14 and Dec. 27, p. 8, 1934; Jan. 5, p. 10, Jan. 8, p. 10, Jan. 9, p. 10, and Jan. 12, P. 10, 1935.

A series of comments and letters regarding the use in Maryland and Virginia of the expression _Hawkins is outside_ or _Hawkins is coming_ meaning the chill weather is coming.


Chilly weather being the antithesis of a "hot time," and extension of this phrase would not be a great mental effort.

The uninviting coldness and chill of an empty room is the source of an analagous expression among owners and employees of restaurants and night clubs. This is "snow-blindness," which such people are said to get from gazing morosely at white-capped tables uninhabitated by hilarous, paying guests.

Very truly yours

ANSWERS, Volume VII, page 26/1. Above printed.


(JSTOR)
Brief Notices
American Speech > Vol. 10, No. 3 (Oct., 1935), pp. 222-231
Pg. 224:
O'Ren, John. Down the Spillway. Baltimore _Sun_, Dec. 21, p. 14 and Dec. 27, p. 8, 1934; Jan. 5, p. 10, Jan. 8, p. 10, Jan. 9, p. 10, and Jan. 12, p. 10, 1935)
A series of comments and letters regarding the use in Maryland and Virginia of the expression _Hawkins is outside_ or _Hawkins is coming_, meaning that chill weather is coming.


(THOUGHTS: The Tamony papers really didn't provide us with anything we don't already have from our own AMERICAN SPEECH. I'll check out the Baltimore Sun articles and type them up here when I return. It'll make a nice COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY article...So it appears that "Windy City" comes from Cincinnati and "the Hawk" comes from Virginia! I might hop a Greyhound down there and check it out...I'll check the digitized AFRO-AMERICAN (Baltimore) again. The Baltimore Sun will be digitized by ProQuest some time in the next five years...Finally, this will all make the Chicago Tribune in about 2013, and I will get no credit, and I will be plagiarized by the Chicago Historical Society and the University of Chicago Press--ed.)

----- End forwarded message -----


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 12:52:17 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 07:52:17 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Professional"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502192235140.1024-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.075217.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

professional (OED, modern sense, 1747-8)

1715 Parker, Samuel. An essay upon the duty of physicians and patients,
the dignity of medicine, and the prudentials of practice. 51 (Eighteenth
Century Collections Online)  There is such a thing as I'll venture to call
a _Professional Priesthood_.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 12:57:15 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 07:57:15 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Working Class"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502192235140.1024-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.075715.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

working class (OED 1789)

1757 Postlethwayt, Malachy. Britain's commercial interest explained and
improved. 26 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  If the produce
cannot be encreased one half, nor, perhaps, hardly one fourth, would not
absolute necessity oblige the working class to give their labour as cheap
as possible, that they may supply their wants as far as they can.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 13:24:30 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 08:24:30 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Colloquial"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502192235140.1024-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.082430.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

colloquial (OED 1751)

1723 Henry Rowlands _Mona Antiqua Restaurata_ 235 (Eighteenth Century
Collections Online)  Great Numbers of Youths resorted to be train'd up in
the _Druidish_ Learning, continuing their Colloquial Studies sometimes
Twenty Years together in that Place.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM  Sun Feb 20 13:35:56 2005
From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 07:35:56 -0600
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.073556.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have heard a lot of different dialects from Nicole Kidman in movies.  Since I am not an expert on the dialects she has used, I don't know if she is doing a good job.
Annie Potts in Ghostbusters uses a New York dialect--I'm not an expert there either. I think she's a southerner.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 13:52:29 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 08:52:29 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Bibliography"
In-Reply-To: <200403010207.i2127Cv06793@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.085229.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

bibliography (OED, modern sense, 1814)

1756 Abel Boyer _Dictionnaire royal, francois-anglois et anglois-francois_
71 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  BIBLIOGRAPHIE ...
_Bibliography_, the knowledge of the ancient way of writings, and
_manuscripts_.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 14:49:08 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 09:49:08 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Publicity"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502200849550.15869-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.094908.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

publicity (OED 1791)

1767 James Mumford _The Question of Questions_ 344 (Eighteenth Century
Collections Online)  We are secur'd that they have done their duty, both
by the notorious publicity of the fact, and by their subscriptions to the
legal carriage of all that assentially concerns the being of a true
council.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 14:57:23 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 09:57:23 -0500
Subject: Further Antedating of "Publicity"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502200849550.15869-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.095723.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

publicity (OED 1791)

1742 John Tillotson _Sermons on Several Subjects and Occasions_ IV. 722
(Eighteeenth Century Collections Online)  Thirdly, he says, "this cabala
was a doctrine delivered to few, and that with strict charge to keep it
from publicity, and so communicate it again successively to a select
committee of a few.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Feb 20 16:00:22 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 08:00:22 -0800
Subject: the cleverness of headline writers
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.080022.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

science reporting tends to get treated as a kind of feature writing, so
that science stories often  have cute or clever heads or lead-ins,
involving idioms, famous quotations, puns, alliteration, etc.  check
out the brief news items in Science, Scientific American, and the NYT
Science Times.  sometimes, though, the writers reach too far.

case in point: headline on the front page of the Oakland (CA) Tribune,
2/19/05, on a story about the detection of "a massive burst of energy
exploded from a far-off neutron star in December".  no problem there.
but the headline is:
    Science makes light
    of star's collapse
now the story's all about the wild enthusiasm of scientists about this
event.  no making light of it at all.

it's a mistake to pun on an expression that means the opposite of what
you want to say.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), amidst the rain and linguistics in
berkeley


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 16:10:41 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:10:41 -0500
Subject: "infamous" = famous
In-Reply-To: <20050220011304.27634.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.111041.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:13 PM -0800 2/19/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Becoming endemic but not in OED, "infamous" as "well-known; famous" :

I've noticed this amelioration for awhile, but I don't think it's as
simple as Jon's equivalence above, or at least not yet--it's more
like "famous in a pop-cultural domain" or "famous (only) for being
famous".  Or at least that's the way I've often seen it.  So it can
be the "infamous Paris Hilton" or (slightly less likely) "the
infamous Brad Pitt" but much less likely "the infamous Mahatma
Gandhi", no matter how famous and well-known he was.  Let's google
them...

"infamous Brad Pitt"  116
"infamous Mahatma Gandhi" 0

Of course, context is a problem--"infamous Paris Hilton" picks up
5690, but mostly of the form "the infamous Paris Hilton sex tapes" or
the like.  Still, I think the distinction is real:  "infamous" is
still a hyponym of "famous", rather than a synonym, although its
territory has expanded.

larry

>
>http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/tm_objectid=15204502&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=futuristic-makeover-for-bugs-bunny-and-co-name_page.html
>
>"Carrot-chomping Bugs Bunny is joined by animated favourites Daffy
>Duck, Wile E Coyote, the Tasmanian Devil, Road Runner and Lola Bunny.
>
>"However, hardcore fans are in for a shock - the trademark
>characteristics will be gone, as will their infamous names.
>
>"Bugs is set to be renamed Buzz Bunny, while Daffy Duck will sport a
>built-in sonar."
>
>"Futuristic makeover for Bugs Bunny and Co," icWales, the national
>website of Wales,(
>Feb. 18, 2005.
>
>(The story reported is itself worthy of infamy  - in the old sense.)
>
>JL


From preston at MSU.EDU  Sun Feb 20 17:43:44 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:43:44 -0500
Subject: "infamous" = famous
In-Reply-To: <p04320404be3e64ca8bcb@[130.132.231.189]>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.124344.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

larry,

Is "notorious" also a hyponym of "famous", or does it reach up to
synonym status?

dInIs



>At 5:13 PM -0800 2/19/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>Becoming endemic but not in OED, "infamous" as "well-known; famous" :
>
>I've noticed this amelioration for awhile, but I don't think it's as
>simple as Jon's equivalence above, or at least not yet--it's more
>like "famous in a pop-cultural domain" or "famous (only) for being
>famous".  Or at least that's the way I've often seen it.  So it can
>be the "infamous Paris Hilton" or (slightly less likely) "the
>infamous Brad Pitt" but much less likely "the infamous Mahatma
>Gandhi", no matter how famous and well-known he was.  Let's google
>them...
>
>"infamous Brad Pitt"  116
>"infamous Mahatma Gandhi" 0
>
>Of course, context is a problem--"infamous Paris Hilton" picks up
>5690, but mostly of the form "the infamous Paris Hilton sex tapes" or
>the like.  Still, I think the distinction is real:  "infamous" is
>still a hyponym of "famous", rather than a synonym, although its
>territory has expanded.
>
>larry
>
>>
>>http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/tm_objectid=15204502&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=futuristic-makeover-for-bugs-bunny-and-co-name_page.html
>>
>>"Carrot-chomping Bugs Bunny is joined by animated favourites Daffy
>>Duck, Wile E Coyote, the Tasmanian Devil, Road Runner and Lola Bunny.
>>
>>"However, hardcore fans are in for a shock - the trademark
>>characteristics will be gone, as will their infamous names.
>>
>>"Bugs is set to be renamed Buzz Bunny, while Daffy Duck will sport a
>>built-in sonar."
>>
>>"Futuristic makeover for Bugs Bunny and Co," icWales, the national
>>website of Wales,(
>>Feb. 18, 2005.
>>
>>(The story reported is itself worthy of infamy  - in the old sense.)
>>
>>JL


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Sun Feb 20 18:35:27 2005
From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:35:27 -0800
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <200502192045.j1JKjDfv013510@mxe1.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.103527.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm from Dallas, which I guess (Dallas being east of Ft. Worth)
makes me a Southern English speaker.  I can assure you that I never used
ya'll or you'all singularly, and I was quite put out at 14 when I visited
Northern cousins who teased me by using it singularly!  If I read Wilson's
last line correctly, he meant "whether your informant is black or white."
For what it's worth, in this case, I'm white.

Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, Wilson Gray wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> Subject:      "Y'all" redux
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers could,
> would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
> posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
> Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
> agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
> his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
> use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that "y'all"
> *is* used as a singular.
>
> In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
> that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
> and Fort Worth.
>
> I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
> farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
> description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan area
> in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows that
> East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
> English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
> English.
>
> So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
> depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
> white.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>


From Vocabula at AOL.COM  Sun Feb 20 18:46:53 2005
From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:46:53 EST
Subject: Vocabula in Print
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.134653.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Vocabula Review Is Soon to Be a Print Publication 
In May 2005, we plan to make available Vol. 1, Issue 1 of The Vocabula Review 
-- BOUND, a quarterly journal. 
The first issue will include the contents of the January through April 2005 
issues of the online Vocabula Review. 
Each 5-by-7-inch, perfect bound issue will be approximately 200 pages long. 
You may order here:  http://www.vocabula.com/VRorder.asp



Robert Hartwell Fiske
Editor and Publisher
The Vocabula Review
http://www.vocabula.com/
 
The Vocabula Review
10 Grant Place
Lexington, MA 02420
_________________________
 
Two Vocabula Books: 
 
The Dictionary of Disagreeable English
http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksDisagree.asp 
 
"However curmudgeonly, Mr. Fiske betrays a bluff humanitarian spirit. ... His 
own flogging of Merriam-Webster's is one of the many pleasures of this 
lovely, sour, virtuous book." — Wall Street Journal  
 
Vocabula Bound: Outbursts, Insights, Explanations, and Oddities
http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksBound.asp
 
Twenty-five of the best essays and twenty-six of the best poems published in 
The Vocabula Review over the last few years


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Sun Feb 20 18:48:46 2005
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:48:46 -0600
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.61b.0502201033040.117666@homer08.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.124846.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm from south Louisiana and I never (AFAIK) use "y'all" in the
singular. Although I very occasionally hear others use it that way, my
immediate and automatic impression is that they must be "from away," as
we say down here, and are trying on the vernacular. Either that, or
they think that I'm "from away," and are consciously trying to act as
they believe visitors must perceive as being Southern for my benefit.
(I'm often asked where I'm from because I don't always have much of the
local accent. When that happens, I usually say that I'm "from away.")

sally donlon


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Feb 20 19:14:30 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:14:30 -0500
Subject: party hearty (1955), party hardy (1974)
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.141430.0500.>

In case anyone missed the announcement on Language Log, Chris Waigl has
put together a terrific website, the Eggcorn Database:

http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/

I've been posting some entries (though Chris has already covered most of
those that have been discussed here and on the Language Log).  I just put
up an entry for "party hardy":

   -----
   http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/134/hardy/

   hearty » hardy
   Chiefly in:   party hardy

   Web usage runs about 1.3:1 in favor of <party hearty>. The <hardy>
   variant has been popular at least since the '70s (see, e.g., the song
   "Party Hardy" by the funk band Slave released in 1977, the same year
   that another funk band, L.T.D., released "We Party Hearty").

   The variant with <hardy> is clearly influenced by <party hard>.
   -----

I was wondering how old the "hearty" and "hardy" variants are.  Proquest
takes "party hearty" back to 1955:

-----
Washington Post, Dec 24, 1955, p. 21, col. 1
Young Set Still Party Hearty
Those party-hearty people who manage, somehow, to take in four and five
debuts a day are complaining.
-----

The earliest I can find on N-archive for "party hardy" is from 1974:

-----
Stevens Point Daily Journal (Wisc.) Dec 4, 1974, p. 20, col. 4
Spring-Polydor — "ACT 1," party hardy people, the same old story, do you
feel it.
-----

Is there anything earlier in the various college slang compendia?


--Ben Zimmer


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 19:32:21 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:32:21 -0500
Subject: "infamous" = famous
In-Reply-To: <a06020400be3e7c96a6b2@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.143221.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>larry,
>
>Is "notorious" also a hyponym of "famous", or does it reach up to
>synonym status?
>
>dInIs
>

I'd say it varies across speakers and writers.  I suspect that there
are those who, focusing on the morphology, take it to be a spinoff of
"noted" and hence essentially a synonym of "famous".  For the rest of
us, it's another hyponym, vying for semantic space with "infamous".

L

>
>>At 5:13 PM -0800 2/19/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>Becoming endemic but not in OED, "infamous" as "well-known; famous" :
>>
>>I've noticed this amelioration for awhile, but I don't think it's as
>>simple as Jon's equivalence above, or at least not yet--it's more
>>like "famous in a pop-cultural domain" or "famous (only) for being
>>famous".  Or at least that's the way I've often seen it.  So it can
>>be the "infamous Paris Hilton" or (slightly less likely) "the
>>infamous Brad Pitt" but much less likely "the infamous Mahatma
>>Gandhi", no matter how famous and well-known he was.  Let's google
>>them...
>>
>>"infamous Brad Pitt"  116
>>"infamous Mahatma Gandhi" 0
>>
>>Of course, context is a problem--"infamous Paris Hilton" picks up
>>5690, but mostly of the form "the infamous Paris Hilton sex tapes" or
>>the like.  Still, I think the distinction is real:  "infamous" is
>>still a hyponym of "famous", rather than a synonym, although its
>>territory has expanded.
>>
>>larry
>>
>>>
>>>http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/tm_objectid=15204502&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=futuristic-makeover-for-bugs-bunny-and-co-name_page.html
>>>
>>>"Carrot-chomping Bugs Bunny is joined by animated favourites Daffy
>>>Duck, Wile E Coyote, the Tasmanian Devil, Road Runner and Lola Bunny.
>>>
>>>"However, hardcore fans are in for a shock - the trademark
>>>characteristics will be gone, as will their infamous names.
>>>
>>>"Bugs is set to be renamed Buzz Bunny, while Daffy Duck will sport a
>>>built-in sonar."
>>>
>>>"Futuristic makeover for Bugs Bunny and Co," icWales, the national
>>>website of Wales,(
>>>Feb. 18, 2005.
>>>
>>>(The story reported is itself worthy of infamy  - in the old sense.)
>>>
>>>JL
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 20 19:36:31 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:36:31 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <E1D2mnV-000319-00@mx11.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.143631.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes. I agree with you that this is proper usage.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 19, 2005, at 7:10 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Janis Vizier Nihart <tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Y'all" redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> As a white  South Louisianian, I have never heard "Y'all" as a singular
> pronoun, but the use of "y'all's" and "y'all" as a possessive pronoun
> is
> used.(I passed by y'all's/ y'all house yesterday, but y'all weren't
> home.)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:45 PM
> Subject: "Y'all" redux
>
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>> Subject:      "Y'all" redux
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----
> -----
>>
>> In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers
>> could,
>> would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
>> posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
>> Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
>> agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
>> his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
>> use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that
>> "y'all"
>> *is* used as a singular.
>>
>> In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
>> that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
>> and Fort Worth.
>>
>> I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
>> farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
>> description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan
>> area
>> in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows
>> that
>> East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
>> English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
>> English.
>>
>> So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
>> depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
>> white.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>


From write at SCN.ORG  Sun Feb 20 19:56:37 2005
From: write at SCN.ORG (Jan Kammert)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:56:37 -0800
Subject: "infamous" = famous
In-Reply-To: <20050220011304.27634.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.115637.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If this is true, then is there a word to replace the meaning I understand
for infamous (famous for doing bad)?

My 8th grade students seem to think that assassination means any murder,
especially a murder for hire.  If that's true, is there a new word that
means killing someone who is politically important?  I hope the English
language doesn't lose important meanings as old words take on broader
meanings.
Jan


On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Becoming endemic but not in OED, "infamous" as "well-known; famous" :
>
> http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/tm_objectid=15204502&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=futuristic-makeover-for-bugs-bunny-and-co-name_page.html
>
> "Carrot-chomping Bugs Bunny is joined by animated favourites Daffy Duck, Wile E Coyote, the Tasmanian Devil, Road Runner and Lola Bunny.
>
> "However, hardcore fans are in for a shock - the trademark characteristics will be gone, as will their infamous names.
>
> "Bugs is set to be renamed Buzz Bunny, while Daffy Duck will sport a built-in sonar."
>
> "Futuristic makeover for Bugs Bunny and Co," icWales, the national website of Wales,(
> Feb. 18, 2005.
>
> (The story reported is itself worthy of infamy  - in the old sense.)
>
> JL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 20 20:02:22 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:02:22 -0500
Subject: [Bapopik@aol.com: Hawkins]
In-Reply-To: <E1D2plx-0000BS-00@mx17.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.150222.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 19, 2005, at 8:22 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>
> Subject:      [Bapopik at aol.com: Hawkins]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> From Barry.
>
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Bapopik at aol.com -----
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
>
>   Subj:    "Hawkins" in Tamony papers; Big Apple Club (1934)
>   Date:    2/19/2005 7:40:36 PM Eastern Standard Time
>   From:    Bapopik
>   To:    ADS-L at listserv.uga.edu
>
>
>
> OT MISC.
>
> TRAVEL: I will be in the Dominican Republic from February 20-27 with
> my sister. She goes there for treatments for her autistic son.
> Normally, I'd wish that my plane would crash, but my sister is
> actually worth more alive than dead.
>
> BIG APPLE-WORLD'S SECOND HOME: I wrote another letter to the New
> Orleans Times-Picayune about the Big Apple's origin there, and I asked
> them to honor the black stablehands (during Black History Month). I
> guess it wasn't good enough to be published (again)...I wrote a letter
> to the New York Times about the "World's Second Home." I said that
> "Big Apple" originally meant the pinnacle is sports. That wasn't
> published, either, although I received an e-mail from Ellis Hennican
> ("Why Apple?" his story went) that I should send it to Newsday...I
> inexplicably got thousands of hits on my web site yesterday for
> "World's Most Famous Arena." The entry is so old that it has "Welcome
> Republicans!" on it, from July 2004.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> BIG APPLE CLUB
>
> 7 July 1934, New York Amsterdam News, pg. 9, col. 1:
> "This Hectic Harlem" by Roi Ottley
> (...)
> The Big Apple has arrived and is worth your time.
>
>
> This is the earliest I have for the Big Apple Club (135th Street and
> 7th Avenue/Adam Clayton Powell Junior Boulevard).
>
> I had read the Amsterdam News for this period about fifteen years ago,
> but I went through the newspaper again briefly today. Roi Ottley
> called Harlem the "Coal Bin" (not in HDAS?). He also used terms like
> "Cornflakes Boulevard" (not in HDAS?). I'm looking for "Hawkins"
> somewhere in 1934.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> HAWKINS IN TAMONY PAPERS
>
> Gerald Cohen helped to pay for this (I thought he would get a
> discount?) and it arrived today. Here goes:
>
>
> Here are the photocpies of the term "Hawkins" found in the Peter
> Tamony Collection (C3939). I did not photocopy any of the "Hawk"
> clipping because the majority of those referred to either the bird,
> military equipment, or to the Vietnam War with the term "hawks and
> doves". The charge for photocopying was credited to Gerald Cohen's
> account.
>
> Mary Beth Brown
> Manuscript Specialist
> Western Historical Manuscript Collection
> BroMary at umsystem.edu
>
>
> CARD ONE:
> JIVE TALK (Regular column).
> MISTER HAWKINS--The wind, wintertime, cold weather, ice, snow.
> RHYTHM AND BLUES (Onyx Publishing Co., Derby, Conn.).
> December 1954: Vol. 1, No. 15, p. 20/1.
>

FWIW, Vol.1:no.1(?) claimed that Little Richard's real first name is
"Ricardo." However, nothing that I've read since (if there was anything
written about Little Richard's first name before the article in Rhythm
and Blues, I missed it) including the works of Little Richard himself,
has supported this assertion. Too bad, 'cause I was diggin "Ricardo."
It was different, but not freaky different. Gnome sane?

-Wilson Gray


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 20:06:55 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:06:55 -0800
Subject: "Y'all" redux
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.120655.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In E. Tenn. I hear "y'all's" exclusively.  Let's start spelling it "yalls" (to bring it in line with "yours" ) and watch the fun.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes. I agree with you that this is proper usage.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 19, 2005, at 7:10 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart
> Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> As a white South Louisianian, I have never heard "Y'all" as a singular
> pronoun, but the use of "y'all's" and "y'all" as a possessive pronoun
> is
> used.(I passed by y'all's/ y'all house yesterday, but y'all weren't
> home.)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wilson Gray"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:45 PM
> Subject: "Y'all" redux
>
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>> Subject: "Y'all" redux
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----
> -----
>>
>> In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers
>> could,
>> would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
>> posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
>> Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
>> agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
>> his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
>> use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that
>> "y'all"
>> *is* used as a singular.
>>
>> In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
>> that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
>> and Fort Worth.
>>
>> I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
>> farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
>> description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan
>> area
>> in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows
>> that
>> East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
>> English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
>> English.
>>
>> So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
>> depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
>> white.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>


---------------------------------
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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 20:38:35 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:38:35 -0500
Subject: "infamous" = famous
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1050220115406.9948B-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.153835.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:56 AM -0800 2/20/05, Jan Kammert wrote:
>If this is true, then is there a word to replace the meaning I understand
>for infamous (famous for doing bad)?

Well, there's still "notorious", but as dInIs noted, that hasn't
necessarily resisted broadening (or reinterpretation) either.

>
>My 8th grade students seem to think that assassination means any murder,
>especially a murder for hire.  If that's true, is there a new word that
>means killing someone who is politically important?  I hope the English
>language doesn't lose important meanings as old words take on broader
>meanings.

Well, broadening does happen, although the original narrower meaning
often survives, yielding  autohyponymy, as is happening now with
"guy".  Often the earlier, narrower meaning has to be specified when
necessary by a modifier; what used to be called "oil" must now be
"olive oil", the old "uncle" can now be specified as a mother's
brother, and so on; a pity, perhaps, but the language and its
speakers survive.  Or a new word comes in:  "bird" used to denote the
young of the avian species, which can now be designated as
"fledgeling" or, of course, as "young bird".

The case of "assassination" is interesting.  If we are to trust the
OED's glosses, the earlier meaning merely involved killing "by
treacherous violence", especially "by a hired emissary", which seems
closer to your 8th grade students' use of the term than is the more
specific meaning you suggest, which is basically the one I'd also
have supplied.  I say "basically" because, as Jim McCawley pointed
out, not just ANY murder of a politically or religiously important
personage is ipso facto an assassination--if the governor is killed
by a romantic rival, that doesn't make it an assassination.  This is
reflected in the AHD4's gloss, "To murder (a prominent person) by
surprise attack, as for political reasons".  Interesting how these
accouterments--violence, treachery, political motive, the element of
surprise--seem to come and go.

Of course, some (very old) respondents may object to all of these
senses as involving an unwarranted broadening of the original
concept, since the use of hashish on the assassin's part is no longer
de rigueur...

Larry


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 20:39:56 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:39:56 -0800
Subject: "infamous" = famous; "assassinate" = murder; "feasible" =
 plausible; "ancestor" = descendant.
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.123956.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I too have come across "assassinate" as a simple synonym for "murder."  (Though"murder" is so easier to say !)  This was on the Web, not in the professional media - yet.

Arnold's point about "infamous" is well taken, but a friend of mine has been using it in what seems to me to be a broader sense for at least a dozen years.  Like so many others, he uses "heinous" to mean "quite unpleasant."

Predicative usage sometimes seems to vary with attributive - a point I can't recall seeing addressed.  For example,

                        "... as well as their infamous [i.e., well-known] names."

sounds much more idiomatic than

                        *"The WB characters' names are infamous [well-known]."

Moreover,

                        "The WB characters are infamous for their entertainment value."

also sounds plausible (and not "feasible," which nowadays is a widely used synonym for "plausible").

Placing an old adjective with a new meaning at the very end of a clause strikes a more discordant note.  To me, anyway.

And in a fans' discussion of the same Warner Bros. project, which will place crime-fighting descendants of Bugs Bunny et al. in the 28th century:

Damn, Lola's gonna be in it (well an ancestor anyways) I may watch it after all, not enjoy it mind you, just watch it.

--- "Are these guys morons!!" Feb. 18, 2005, posted by "da_bunnyman" [ http://forum.bcdb.com/forum/_C1/_F2/Are_these_guys_morons!!_P39945/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=39945;page=2;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;guest=4207007 ]

JL


Jan Kammert <write at SCN.ORG> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Jan Kammert
Subject: Re: "infamous" = famous
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If this is true, then is there a word to replace the meaning I understand
for infamous (famous for doing bad)?

My 8th grade students seem to think that assassination means any murder,
especially a murder for hire. If that's true, is there a new word that
means killing someone who is politically important? I hope the English
language doesn't lose important meanings as old words take on broader
meanings.
Jan


On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Becoming endemic but not in OED, "infamous" as "well-known; famous" :
>
> http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/tm_objectid=15204502&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=futuristic-makeover-for-bugs-bunny-and-co-name_page.html
>
> "Carrot-chomping Bugs Bunny is joined by animated favourites Daffy Duck, Wile E Coyote, the Tasmanian Devil, Road Runner and Lola Bunny.
>
> "However, hardcore fans are in for a shock - the trademark characteristics will be gone, as will their infamous names.
>
> "Bugs is set to be renamed Buzz Bunny, while Daffy Duck will sport a built-in sonar."
>
> "Futuristic makeover for Bugs Bunny and Co," icWales, the national website of Wales,(
> Feb. 18, 2005.
>
> (The story reported is itself worthy of infamy - in the old sense.)
>
> JL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


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From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU  Sun Feb 20 20:49:39 2005
From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 06:49:39 +1000
Subject: Y'all
In-Reply-To: <200502200838.j1K8c8BW048086@mailhub1.uq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.064939.1000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On the y'all question:
By way of comparison: the Australian version of "y'all" is "youse"
/ju:z/ (via Irish English). Originally plural, it is now used in
non-standard colloquial speech as a singular as well. The vowel is
commonly reduced to schwa:
        how y&z goin'? (how are you?) - either singular or plural addressee
Roly Sussex


--

Roland Sussex
Professor of Applied Language Studies
School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies
The University of Queensland
Brisbane
Queensland 4072
AUSTRALIA

University's CRICOS provider number: 00025B

Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32)
Phone:  +61 7 3365 6896
Fax:    +61 7 3365 6799
Email:  sussex at uq.edu.au
Web:    http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html
School's website:
        http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/
Applied linguistics website:
        http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/

Language Talkback ABC radio:
Web:    http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/
Audio:  from    http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm

**********************************************************


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 20:51:48 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:51:48 -0800
Subject: "assassinate" = murder
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.125148.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In regard to the expectant mother murdered for her unborn child :

"At the moment I think all the relatives of this tiny baby and the assassinated mother need love and support."

--"Bloody Skidmore," Dec. 22, 2004, posted by "s&r" at
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=76762

JL

PS: Observe how current usage politicizes the term "unborn child," which in this case is the simplest and most appropriate phrase I can think of, with no intended sociopolitical comment behind it.


Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: "infamous" = famous
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 11:56 AM -0800 2/20/05, Jan Kammert wrote:
>If this is true, then is there a word to replace the meaning I understand
>for infamous (famous for doing bad)?

Well, there's still "notorious", but as dInIs noted, that hasn't
necessarily resisted broadening (or reinterpretation) either.

>
>My 8th grade students seem to think that assassination means any murder,
>especially a murder for hire. If that's true, is there a new word that
>means killing someone who is politically important? I hope the English
>language doesn't lose important meanings as old words take on broader
>meanings.

Well, broadening does happen, although the original narrower meaning
often survives, yielding autohyponymy, as is happening now with
"guy". Often the earlier, narrower meaning has to be specified when
necessary by a modifier; what used to be called "oil" must now be
"olive oil", the old "uncle" can now be specified as a mother's
brother, and so on; a pity, perhaps, but the language and its
speakers survive. Or a new word comes in: "bird" used to denote the
young of the avian species, which can now be designated as
"fledgeling" or, of course, as "young bird".

The case of "assassination" is interesting. If we are to trust the
OED's glosses, the earlier meaning merely involved killing "by
treacherous violence", especially "by a hired emissary", which seems
closer to your 8th grade students' use of the term than is the more
specific meaning you suggest, which is basically the one I'd also
have supplied. I say "basically" because, as Jim McCawley pointed
out, not just ANY murder of a politically or religiously important
personage is ipso facto an assassination--if the governor is killed
by a romantic rival, that doesn't make it an assassination. This is
reflected in the AHD4's gloss, "To murder (a prominent person) by
surprise attack, as for political reasons". Interesting how these
accouterments--violence, treachery, political motive, the element of
surprise--seem to come and go.

Of course, some (very old) respondents may object to all of these
senses as involving an unwarranted broadening of the original
concept, since the use of hashish on the assassin's part is no longer
de rigueur...

Larry

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 20:55:14 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:55:14 -0800
Subject: "Y'all" redux
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.125514.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sally, your very admission as a Southerner that you have heard other Southerners use "y'all" in the singular will mark you in certain quarters as "not really a Southerner" .

JL

"Sally O. Donlon" <sod at LOUISIANA.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Sally O. Donlon"
Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm from south Louisiana and I never (AFAIK) use "y'all" in the
singular. Although I very occasionally hear others use it that way, my
immediate and automatic impression is that they must be "from away," as
we say down here, and are trying on the vernacular. Either that, or
they think that I'm "from away," and are consciously trying to act as
they believe visitors must perceive as being Southern for my benefit.
(I'm often asked where I'm from because I don't always have much of the
local accent. When that happens, I usually say that I'm "from away.")

sally donlon

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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 20 21:01:30 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:01:30 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <E1D2vva-0003eO-00@mx13.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.160130.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sigh! Where is your spell-checker when you need it? Yes, I meant
"black" and not "back." If I read Crystal aright, part of his claim is
that blacks in Fort Worth are more likely to restrict the use of
"y'all" to the plural than whites are. However, my own personal
experience is that don't *no* real Southern (in the earlier hoo-raw
about "y'all," someone noted that I failed to define "Southern.")
speaker be using no "y'all" as no singular, irregardless of accidentals
like race.

Practically ever since I learned to speak and read, I've heard it
claimed and read it claimed that Southern speakers simply replace
Northern "you" with Southern "you-all" and/or "y'all." To quote Richard
Pryor, as is my wont, "Unreal. And I ain't going for it."

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 20, 2005, at 1:35 PM, J. Eulenberg wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "J. Eulenberg" <eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Y'all" redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I'm from Dallas, which I guess (Dallas being east of Ft. Worth)
> makes me a Southern English speaker.  I can assure you that I never
> used
> ya'll or you'all singularly, and I was quite put out at 14 when I
> visited
> Northern cousins who teased me by using it singularly!  If I read
> Wilson's
> last line correctly, he meant "whether your informant is black or
> white."
> For what it's worth, in this case, I'm white.
>
> Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>
>
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, Wilson Gray wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>> Subject:      "Y'all" redux
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>>
>> In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers
>> could,
>> would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
>> posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
>> Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
>> agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
>> his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
>> use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that
>> "y'all"
>> *is* used as a singular.
>>
>> In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
>> that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
>> and Fort Worth.
>>
>> I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
>> farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
>> description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan
>> area
>> in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows
>> that
>> East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
>> English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
>> English.
>>
>> So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
>> depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
>> white.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 20 21:11:55 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:11:55 -0500
Subject: A new phenomenon?
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.161155.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Last night, on local TV, I heard a talking head say, "These phenomenon
must be explained." Of course, this hapax could be merely a tip of the
slongue.

-Wilson Gray


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 21:33:11 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:33:11 -0800
Subject: "infamous" = famous
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.133311.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A handful of further exx.:

" !katy! just infamous for now...Welcome to my site!...Everyone else has a web site these days, so I figured, why not me too?" -- !katy! Feb. 10, 2005, at [ http://theinfamous99.tripod.com/ ].

"Part of The Savoy Group, Simpson's-In-The-Strand is infamous for being one of London's most historic restaurants serving a plethora of exquisitely prepared traditional British dishes. Simpson's-In-The-Strand comprises of three restaurants, the Grand Divan, Simply Simpsons and Knights Bar. This is an ideal venue for private parties, conferences and wedding receptions. Covent Garden."  View London.co.uk,  Feb. 18, 2005 [ www.viewlondon.co.uk/info_restaurant_5508.html ]

"Driven by the fierce, raw energy of pure metallic hardcore, Sacramento�s HOODS have become infamous for their determination and no holds barred work ethic."  --Victory Records, Feb. 19, 2005
[ www.victoryrecords.com/Webstore/ MerchByArtist.asp?ArtistID=1015 ]

"Now, you're infamous for doing very detailed research on the characters
you write, especially the relatively obscure ones."  -- "KurtB: Question About FireStar?" (Usenet: rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe), Aug. 28, 1999, posted by "Isaac Sher."

"The ease of use that Apple is infamous for with its Macintosh computer line was something the company wanted to bring to their digital music player. The iPod only has 4 buttons on it and a scroll wheel." AppleNova Forums iPod Evaluation, July 5, 2004, posted by "Messiahtosh"  [ http://forums.applenova.com/archive/index.php/t-817.html ]

"Ben, you are famous! ... Ben, you are infamous now!" -- "Ben, you are famous! Newest Beast Wars episode" (Usenet: alt.toys.transformers), Oct. 29, 1996, posted by "Gordon Ho."


I might add that in the great majority of occurrences of "infamous" I've seen on the Net, the word is used correctly.

JL



Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: "infamous" = famous
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 5:13 PM -0800 2/19/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Becoming endemic but not in OED, "infamous" as "well-known; famous" :

I've noticed this amelioration for awhile, but I don't think it's as
simple as Jon's equivalence above, or at least not yet--it's more
like "famous in a pop-cultural domain" or "famous (only) for being
famous". Or at least that's the way I've often seen it. So it can
be the "infamous Paris Hilton" or (slightly less likely) "the
infamous Brad Pitt" but much less likely "the infamous Mahatma
Gandhi", no matter how famous and well-known he was. Let's google
them...

"infamous Brad Pitt" 116
"infamous Mahatma Gandhi" 0

Of course, context is a problem--"infamous Paris Hilton" picks up
5690, but mostly of the form "the infamous Paris Hilton sex tapes" or
the like. Still, I think the distinction is real: "infamous" is
still a hyponym of "famous", rather than a synonym, although its
territory has expanded.

larry


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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 20 21:43:25 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:43:25 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <E1D2y6m-00003G-00@mx08.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.164325.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On the contrary, it marks those who use "y'all" as a singular as not
really being Southern-speakers. I'd really love to hear "y'all" used as
a singular somewhere other than in books and movies or on TV or radio.
The closest that I've come to that is hearing people, including your
humble correspondent, use both "y'all/you-all" and "you" as plurals in
unmonitored speech.

-Wilson Gray


On Feb 20, 2005, at 3:55 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Y'all" redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Sally, your very admission as a Southerner that you have heard other
> Southerners use "y'all" in the singular will mark you in certain
> quarters as "not really a Southerner" .
>
> JL
>
> "Sally O. Donlon" <sod at LOUISIANA.EDU> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Sally O. Donlon"
> Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I'm from south Louisiana and I never (AFAIK) use "y'all" in the
> singular. Although I very occasionally hear others use it that way, my
> immediate and automatic impression is that they must be "from away," as
> we say down here, and are trying on the vernacular. Either that, or
> they think that I'm "from away," and are consciously trying to act as
> they believe visitors must perceive as being Southern for my benefit.
> (I'm often asked where I'm from because I don't always have much of the
> local accent. When that happens, I usually say that I'm "from away.")
>
> sally donlon
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 21:53:24 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:53:24 -0800
Subject: A new phenomenon?
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.135324.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A quick check of Usenet news groups reveals 1,100 exx. of "these phenomenon," 124 for "many phenomenon," and 29 for "number of phenomenon."

There are  5,020  for "phenomenons."


JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: A new phenomenon?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last night, on local TV, I heard a talking head say, "These phenomenon
must be explained." Of course, this hapax could be merely a tip of the
slongue.

-Wilson Gray


---------------------------------
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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 20 21:57:45 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:57:45 -0500
Subject: Fox "kits"?
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.165745.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a newspaper article about the taming of foxes, the author referred
to what I know as fox "cubs" as fox "kits." Fox "kits"?! Why not fox
"pups"? There's a species of vulpine known as a "kit fox." Perhaps the
writer had that in mind.

-Wilson


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 20 22:00:13 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:00:13 -0500
Subject: A new phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <E1D2z16-0007nO-00@mx07.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.170013.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Say what?! Take me now, Jesus!

-Wilson

On Feb 20, 2005, at 4:53 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: A new phenomenon?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> A quick check of Usenet news groups reveals 1,100 exx. of "these
> phenomenon," 124 for "many phenomenon," and 29 for "number of
> phenomenon."
>
> There are  5,020  for "phenomenons."
>
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: A new phenomenon?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Last night, on local TV, I heard a talking head say, "These phenomenon
> must be explained." Of course, this hapax could be merely a tip of the
> slongue.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 22:06:43 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:06:43 -0800
Subject: "Y'all" redux
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.140643.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Would somebody please post a reference to a seemingly intelligent printed source - or any source - that confidently asserts that Southerners address individuals as "y'all"?  It would be nice if the source was more recent than, say, 1930, but I'll take anything.  It would be good to know exactly what it is that is being defended against.

Here's a damnyankee hypothesis for quiet consideration: singular "y'all" used to be far more common than it is today, particularly among the poorest and least educated Southerners of either race. The Dixie patriots who emotionalized the issue eighty and more years ago would see themselves in hell before they'd let any scallywaggin', tail-draggin', carpetbaggin', yellowbellied bluebellies mistake THEM for TRASH!

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the contrary, it marks those who use "y'all" as a singular as not
really being Southern-speakers. I'd really love to hear "y'all" used as
a singular somewhere other than in books and movies or on TV or radio.
The closest that I've come to that is hearing people, including your
humble correspondent, use both "y'all/you-all" and "you" as plurals in
unmonitored speech.

-Wilson Gray


On Feb 20, 2005, at 3:55 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Sally, your very admission as a Southerner that you have heard other
> Southerners use "y'all" in the singular will mark you in certain
> quarters as "not really a Southerner" .
>
> JL
>
> "Sally O. Donlon" wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Sally O. Donlon"
> Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I'm from south Louisiana and I never (AFAIK) use "y'all" in the
> singular. Although I very occasionally hear others use it that way, my
> immediate and automatic impression is that they must be "from away," as
> we say down here, and are trying on the vernacular. Either that, or
> they think that I'm "from away," and are consciously trying to act as
> they believe visitors must perceive as being Southern for my benefit.
> (I'm often asked where I'm from because I don't always have much of the
> local accent. When that happens, I usually say that I'm "from away.")
>
> sally donlon
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>



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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 22:10:57 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:10:57 -0800
Subject: Fox "kits"?
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.141057.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Merriam-Webster has kit, "a young or undersized fur-bearing animal."  OED has it as a short form of kitten, with references to minks (1970) and muskrats (1974).

See, it's ALWAYS worse than you think: Lighter's Law.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Fox "kits"?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a newspaper article about the taming of foxes, the author referred
to what I know as fox "cubs" as fox "kits." Fox "kits"?! Why not fox
"pups"? There's a species of vulpine known as a "kit fox." Perhaps the
writer had that in mind.

-Wilson


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From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Sun Feb 20 22:33:24 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:33:24 -0600
Subject: Fox "kits"?
In-Reply-To: <200502201710.68f42190af31c8@rly-nc05.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.163324.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My "National Audubon Society Guide to North American Mammals" says
this:  "the mother [fox] brings live prey, enabling the kits to practice
killing."

I've always called them "kits" myself.

Patti Kurtz

wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote:

>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Fox "kits"?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Merriam-Webster has kit, "a young or undersized fur-bearing animal."  OED has it as a short form of kitten, with references to minks (1970) and muskrats (1974).
>
>See, it's ALWAYS worse than you think: Lighter's Law.
>
>JL
>
>Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Wilson Gray
>Subject: Fox "kits"?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>In a newspaper article about the taming of foxes, the author referred
>to what I know as fox "cubs" as fox "kits." Fox "kits"?! Why not fox
>"pups"? There's a species of vulpine known as a "kit fox." Perhaps the
>writer had that in mind.
>
>-Wilson
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>
>

--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Feb 20 22:36:52 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:36:52 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <20050220220643.7767.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.173652.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Would somebody please post a reference to a seemingly intelligent printed
>source - or any source - that confidently asserts that Southerners address
>individuals as "y'all"?  It would be nice if the source was more recent
>than, say, 1930, but I'll take anything.  It would be good to know exactly
>what it is that is being defended against.

Crystal's recent book does assert that Fort Worthers (or is it "Worthians"
or "Forteans"?) do this. The first example he encountered (IIRC) was from
the clerk or storekeeper where he went to buy a Stetson hat. I wasn't there
and I've never seen Crystal or heard him speak, but one thing which tends
to be near a Texas hotel in my limited experience is a store selling
Stetsons, tooled boots, etc. to tourists from such places as London, Tokyo,
and Chicago. With clerks necessarily quite conscious of their Texan-ness
(or is that "Texianity"?). Crystal does recount other examples of singular
"y'all", but again there is reason to suspect that some may put on this
sort of thing for the furriners.

What is the opposite of "hypercorrection" again? I live in Pittsburgh. Many
Pittsburghers use "you-uns"/"yinz" as the plural of "you", some don't, but
essentially everybody knows that the 'correct' or 'standard' version is
"you" [pl.]. So "yinz" is either lower-register or explicitly-local. In
order to sound even more homey/slangy/explicitly-local one might go one
step further and put "yinz" for every instance of "you", singular or
plural. I'm sure I've encountered this, although not often. The same might
occur elsewhere, IMHO, with "y'all", for example, or "youse", in US or UK.

-- Doug Wilson


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 23:25:38 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:25:38 -0800
Subject: "Y'all" redux
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.152538.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry for leaving out the word "routinely": "that Southerners *routinely* address individuals as 'y'all.' "

I was so angry that I'd accidentally deleted the earlier, better phrased post before I sent it that I left out a key word.

But it certainly is remarkable that any evidence  that some Southerners, in certain circumstances, can actually use a singular "y'all" is denounced or ridiculed.

So if one ever does hear a singular y'all from a Southerner, that Southerner is just a-play-actin' for the furriners.  Or "perceived" furriners, perhaps. Or the Southerner is really from Texas, which doesn't count. Or West Texas, for sure.

JL

"Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Would somebody please post a reference to a seemingly intelligent printed
>source - or any source - that confidently asserts that Southerners address
>individuals as "y'all"? It would be nice if the source was more recent
>than, say, 1930, but I'll take anything. It would be good to know exactly
>what it is that is being defended against.

Crystal's recent book does assert that Fort Worthers (or is it "Worthians"
or "Forteans"?) do this. The first example he encountered (IIRC) was from
the clerk or storekeeper where he went to buy a Stetson hat. I wasn't there
and I've never seen Crystal or heard him speak, but one thing which tends
to be near a Texas hotel in my limited experience is a store selling
Stetsons, tooled boots, etc. to tourists from such places as London, Tokyo,
and Chicago. With clerks necessarily quite conscious of their Texan-ness
(or is that "Texianity"?). Crystal does recount other examples of singular
"y'all", but again there is reason to suspect that some may put on this
sort of thing for the furriners.

What is the opposite of "hypercorrection" again? I live in Pittsburgh. Many
Pittsburghers use "you-uns"/"yinz" as the plural of "you", some don't, but
essentially everybody knows that the 'correct' or 'standard' version is
"you" [pl.]. So "yinz" is either lower-register or explicitly-local. In
order to sound even more homey/slangy/explicitly-local one might go one
step further and put "yinz" for every instance of "you", singular or
plural. I'm sure I've encountered this, although not often. The same might
occur elsewhere, IMHO, with "y'all", for example, or "youse", in US or UK.

-- Doug Wilson


---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 23:42:35 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:42:35 -0800
Subject: "slackard" = slacker
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.154235.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just Googled up 1,700 of these.  Earliest (Usenet) is from Nov. 27, 1998.  "Obviously"
< slack(er) + (slugg)ard, but something phonological is at work, I think.

JL

__________________________________________________
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From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 23:47:07 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 18:47:07 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Quantum Mechanics"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502200954350.25073-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.184707.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

quantum mechanics (OED, in modern sense, 1925)

1924 _Amer. Mathematical Monthly_ Mar. 126  Perhaps the fundamental
directedness of the world events is not expressed in the equations of
ordinary dynamics, but strikes its roots deeper into the underlying
quantum mechanics.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 23:52:07 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:52:07 -0800
Subject: "slackard" = slacker
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.155207.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a similar vein, Usenet yields a dozen or so seemingly independent cases of "buggard(s)" = bugger(s) (noun).  Likewise a few dozen for "scholard(s)" = scholar(s).

JL


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From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Feb 21 00:14:10 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 19:14:10 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <20050220232538.91109.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.191410.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Sorry for leaving out the word "routinely": "that Southerners *routinely*
>address individuals as 'y'all.' "
>
>I was so angry that I'd accidentally deleted the earlier, better phrased
>post before I sent it that I left out a key word.
>
>But it certainly is remarkable that any evidence  that some Southerners,
>in certain circumstances, can actually use a singular "y'all" is denounced
>or ridiculed.
>
>So if one ever does hear a singular y'all from a Southerner, that
>Southerner is just a-play-actin' for the furriners.  Or "perceived"
>furriners, perhaps. Or the Southerner is really from Texas, which doesn't
>count. Or West Texas, for sure.

Certainly I hope not to make anyone angry. I do not believe that I either
asserted or denied that some persons routinely use singular "y'all". If I
have to guess, I'll guess that some do ... how many, north or south, I
don't know. I don't recall being acquainted with such a person myself, but
that doesn't mean much. I doubt anybody here denies that some persons
sometimes use singular "y'all" (I'm sure nobody denies that singular "we"
or "they" occurs either). As for the 'furriners', the above sarcastic
inversion of my casual remark of course does not accurately represent my
belief: rather I believe that exaggeration of one's local speech
characteristics in certain contexts might partially explain contradictory
reports on this subject: the exaggeration might be done for tourists or for
one's local friends or just out of habit or whatever. Just my idle notion.

-- Doug Wilson


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 21 00:41:56 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:41:56 -0800
Subject: "Y'all" redux
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.164156.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No sarcsm was intended.  It's just that this remarkable idea had come up twice in one afternoon, seriously intended both times so far as I could tell.

Also, I was not angry at you, Doug. As I wrote, "I was so angry that I'd accidentally deleted the earlier, better phrased post before I sent it that I left out a key word."  A comma after "it" was probably in order.

JL

"Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Sorry for leaving out the word "routinely": "that Southerners *routinely*
>address individuals as 'y'all.' "
>
>I was so angry that I'd accidentally deleted the earlier, better phrased
>post before I sent it that I left out a key word.
>
>But it certainly is remarkable that any evidence that some Southerners,
>in certain circumstances, can actually use a singular "y'all" is denounced
>or ridiculed.
>
>So if one ever does hear a singular y'all from a Southerner, that
>Southerner is just a-play-actin' for the furriners. Or "perceived"
>furriners, perhaps. Or the Southerner is really from Texas, which doesn't
>count. Or West Texas, for sure.

Certainly I hope not to make anyone angry. I do not believe that I either
asserted or denied that some persons routinely use singular "y'all". If I
have to guess, I'll guess that some do ... how many, north or south, I
don't know. I don't recall being acquainted with such a person myself, but
that doesn't mean much. I doubt anybody here denies that some persons
sometimes use singular "y'all" (I'm sure nobody denies that singular "we"
or "they" occurs either). As for the 'furriners', the above sarcastic
inversion of my casual remark of course does not accurately represent my
belief: rather I believe that exaggeration of one's local speech
characteristics in certain contexts might partially explain contradictory
reports on this subject: the exaggeration might be done for tourists or for
one's local friends or just out of habit or whatever. Just my idle notion.

-- Doug Wilson


---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Feb 21 01:05:30 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:05:30 -0500
Subject: "slackard" = slacker
In-Reply-To: <20050220234235.83596.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.200530.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Just Googled up 1,700 of these.  Earliest (Usenet) is from Nov. 27,
>1998.  "Obviously"
>< slack(er) + (slugg)ard, but something phonological is at work, I think.
>
>JL
>
Could be it's not necessary a simply blend, but a reanalysis of
"slacker" as containing the deprecatory -ard suffix, also seen in
laggard (a closer match than "sluggard", perhaps) and of course other
pejoratives from the same general family, e.g. "drunkard".

Larry


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Feb 21 10:25:20 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:25:20 +0000
Subject: "Love Mussel"
In-Reply-To: <200502172052.j1HKqaXN003456@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.102520.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 17/2/05 8:52 pm, Laurence Horn at laurence.horn at YALE.EDU wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Love muscle"
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> Not to be confused with the Love Mussel:  cf.
> http://www.thetoque.net/050111/love_mussel.htm

That would be the Love Mussel possessing the following attribute:

"This muscular manly mollusk is so desirable, it has been known to cause
women to feint."

Perhaps they only feinted fainting.


-Neil Crawford


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Feb 21 11:41:03 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:41:03 +0000
Subject: 'walk of shame' origin?
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.114103.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

'This was something I had vowed never to do, put myself in the hook-up
position in someone's fraternity house. Because nothing's anonymous at this
school, despite what you'd think from the size. A walk of shame the next
morning would definitely make 34th Street [last 2 words italicised].'

-Rachel Solar-Tuttle, 'number 6 fumbles', Pocket Books, NY, 2002, 39

I understand the concept, but wondered if the origin is sexual or sporting,
and would be interested to learn of it's earliest occurrence.

- Neil Crawford
(who can't figure out to change his posting name from 'Neil' to 'Neil
Crawford'


From remlingk at GVSU.EDU  Mon Feb 21 13:32:52 2005
From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:32:52 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.083252.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A few more examples of dialects in films:

Mickey Blue Eyes ( a new New York City variey; also good for discussion
of dialect acquisition and accommodation--Hugh Grant plays a character
who tries to fit


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 21 13:59:02 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 05:59:02 -0800
Subject: to "effort" = to make an effort toward resolving one's
 differences with
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.055902.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Breaking News !

Just moments ago, "Fox & Friends" carried a segment about secret talks being held between the U.S. military and "nationalist insurgents" in Iraq.  The caption read "EFFORTING THE ENEMY."  At first I thought it was "Effecting," which at least has undergraduate sanction behind it.  But no, it was "EFFORTING THE ENEMY."

A Google search turned up well over a thousand exx. of "efforting."

JL

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Mon Feb 21 14:09:51 2005
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:09:51 -0600
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <20050220205515.89275.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.080951.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I only report what I hear.

For the rest, you'll have to tell that to my grandparents...

sod


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 21 15:20:54 2005
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 07:20:54 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <20050219025152.79961.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.072054.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm from the Rocky Mountains, and I found it
appalling!




--- Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> I understand that Dick Van Dyke's Cockney in "Mary
> Poppins" is regarded as appalling by many English
> people.
>
> In fact, most stars before the age of intensive
> dialect coaching just muddled through "dialect"
> roles.  Kevin Costner (CA) was ridiculed for his
> "Hyannisport" accent in "Fourteen Days," but to a
> geezer saturated in the JFK era, he seemed OK.
>
> Gwyneth Paltrow (CA / MA) as "Emma" ? She sure
> fooled me !
>
> JL
>
> "Patti J. Kurtz" <kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz"
> Subject: Dialects in film
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hi everyone. We've discussed films in which language
> features
> prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to
> compile is a list of
> films in which the characters speak in dialects.
> (for example,
> "Fargo") for my dialects class. I'd like names of
> both films that
> represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and
> those that don't,
> since we're going to talk about dialects in the
> media at some point. I
> can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can
> think of more. And I'm
> thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than
> films like "American
> Tongues."
>
> Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by
> me and by my
> students, who are enjoying the course a lot!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Patti Kurtz
> Minot State University
> --
>
> Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the
> monster?
>
>
>
> Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.
>
>
>
> Freeman - It's called dedication.
>
>
>
> Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Feb 21 15:34:57 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:34:57 -0500
Subject: to "effort" = to make an effort toward resolving one's
 differenc
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.103457.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This should be compared with OED:

1662 Fuller _Worthiers_ (1840) 1. 276  He efforted his spirits with the
remembrance .. of what formerly he had been.

NewspaperARCHIVE.com has 27 articles with "efforting."  Coincidentally (?)
a search of "efforted" also turned up 27 articles.  However, I have not
checked (now the popular word is vetted) these.
ProQuest (27 newspapers) has one article (1989) for "efforting," which
contains a note about that usage "mangling" the language.  For "efforted"
ProQuest provides four articles.
It would be interesting to see what Nexis has.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Monday, February 21,
2005 at 8:59 AM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>Subject:      to "effort" = to make an effort toward resolving one's
>              differences with
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Breaking News !
>
>Just moments ago, "Fox & Friends" carried a segment about secret talks
>being held between the U.S. military and "nationalist insurgents" in
>Iraq.  The caption read "EFFORTING THE ENEMY."  At first I thought it was
>"Effecting," which at least has undergraduate sanction behind it.  But
>no, it was "EFFORTING THE ENEMY."
>
>A Google search turned up well over a thousand exx. of "efforting."
>
>JL
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Feb 21 16:24:28 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:24:28 -0800
Subject: A new phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <20050220215324.68873.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.082428.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Sunday, February 20, 2005 1:53 PM -0800 Jonathan Lighter
<wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> A quick check of Usenet news groups reveals 1,100 exx. of "these
> phenomenon," 124 for "many phenomenon," and 29 for "number of phenomenon."
>
> There are  5,020  for "phenomenons."

"Phenomenons" and not "phenomenas"?!  That's an astounding phenomena!

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Feb 21 16:57:18 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:57:18 -0500
Subject: "Y'all redux"
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.115718.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I wonder if "y'all" addressed to an individual may not sometimes simply be
a kind of formal, shy politesse, functioning rather like the tu/vous
distinction in French. A way of not being too pointed or familiar with
another person.  I think, in particular, of a store clerk in southwestern
Ohio (whose accent would probably be familiar to dInIs) who routinely said
to individual customers: "Y'all come back, now, y'hear?"
In any case, unless a dogmatic definition of "southern" as /not using
"y'all" except as a plural/, it is absurd to go on saying "no true
southerner ever, &c.", when there have been numerous attestations of such
usage in this and previous discussions of "y'all."
Just the two-cents' worth of a bystander who has never lived south of the
34th parallel.
A. Murie

A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From preston at MSU.EDU  Mon Feb 21 16:59:43 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:59:43 -0500
Subject: "Y'all redux"
In-Reply-To: <l03130300be3fc2ab1873@[12.107.149.141]>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.115943.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I stayed out of SW Ohio a lot when I was a kid (we were Cards fans,
not Reds fans), but I reckon they would have sounded a bit like me,
although the SE Ohio folk probably sounded more like me (cept for
that feesh & poosh stuff).

I wouldn't pay too much attention to items in the phrase "Y'all come
back, now, y'hear?," which has such formulaic status as to make the
internal elements suspect. Even Michiganders offer this phase when
asked what Southerners sound like.

dInIs



>I wonder if "y'all" addressed to an individual may not sometimes simply be
>a kind of formal, shy politesse, functioning rather like the tu/vous
>distinction in French. A way of not being too pointed or familiar with
>another person.  I think, in particular, of a store clerk in southwestern
>Ohio (whose accent would probably be familiar to dInIs) who routinely said
>to individual customers: "Y'all come back, now, y'hear?"
>In any case, unless a dogmatic definition of "southern" as /not using
>"y'all" except as a plural/, it is absurd to go on saying "no true
>southerner ever, &c.", when there have been numerous attestations of such
>usage in this and previous discussions of "y'all."
>Just the two-cents' worth of a bystander who has never lived south of the
>34th parallel.
>A. Murie
>
>A&M Murie
>N. Bangor NY
>sagehen at westelcom.com


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Feb 21 17:07:23 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:07:23 -0500
Subject: oops!  Re: "Y'all redux"
In-Reply-To: <l03130300be3fc2ab1873@[12.107.149.141]>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.120723.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Left out  ...is allowed...  from sentence beginning  " In any case, unless
a..."
AM

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>


From jimsmuse at COMCAST.NET  Mon Feb 21 17:00:15 2005
From: jimsmuse at COMCAST.NET (Your Name)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:00:15 +0000
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.170015.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned "Coal Miner's Daughter" during this discussion of movie dialects.   Every time I see it I am amazed all over again at the consistency of Sissy Spacek's speech in the movie.

Then again, I do know that familiarity with a native speaker can make all the difference.   I thought Mel Gibson's Scots in "Braveheart" was fairly believeable, until I had occasion to have a Scottish house-guest for a month.  After 3 weeks of the visit, we sat down to watch "Braveheart" together and I was amazed at the difference in my perception of Mel's attempt at an authentic burr after spending time with a Scottish native.   Two years later (and after spending extended time in Scotland), I almost cannot bear to watch the movie because the accents sound so awful, and I'm guessing there may be some folks from Loretta Lynn's hometown of Butcher Holler that find "Coal Miner's Daughter" just as difficult to endure...

Other movies that occur to me in fun are "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" and "Valley Girl", both of which contain a California dialect that is "fer shure" different than what we speak here on the East Coast, and both of which added a few phrases to the popular speech of the day.

Respectfully,

Carrie Lowery
jimsmuse at comcast.net







-------------- Original message --------------

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: James Smith
> Subject: Re: Dialects in film
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm from the Rocky Mountains, and I found it
> appalling!
>
>
>
>
> --- Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
> > I understand that Dick Van Dyke's Cockney in "Mary
> > Poppins" is regarded as appalling by many English
> > people.
> >
> > In fact, most stars before the age of intensive
> > dialect coaching just muddled through "dialect"
> > roles. Kevin Costner (CA) was ridiculed for his
> > "Hyannisport" accent in "Fourteen Days," but to a
> > geezer saturated in the JFK era, he seemed OK.
> >
> > Gwyneth Paltrow (CA / MA) as "Emma" ? She sure
> > fooled me !
> >
> > JL
> >
> > "Patti J. Kurtz" wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz"
> > Subject: Dialects in film
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Hi everyone. We've discussed films in which language
> > features
> > prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to
> > compile is a list of
> > films in which the characters speak in dialects.
> > (for example,
> > "Fargo") for my dialects class. I'd like names of
> > both films that
> > represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and
> > those that don't,
> > since we're going to talk about dialects in the
> > media at some point. I
> > can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can
> > think of more. And I'm
> > thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than
> > films like "American
> > Tongues."
> >
> > Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by
> > me and by my
> > students, who are enjoying the course a lot!
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Patti Kurtz
> > Minot State University
> > --
> >
> > Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the
> > monster?
> >
> >
> >
> > Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.
> >
> >
> >
> > Freeman - It's called dedication.
> >
> >
> >
> > Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
> =====
> James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything
> South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued
> jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively
> |or slowly and cautiously.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Mon Feb 21 17:13:30 2005
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:13:30 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.121330.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Kevin Costner and rest of crew  * in if You Build It, They Will Come * sorry, i'm blanking the title * the baseball diamond in a cornfield movie


(sorry if this has been mentioned, i've missed some posts)

beth

beth lee simon, ph.d.
associate professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
fort wayne, in 46805-1499
u.s.
voice (011) 260 481 6761; fax (011) 260 481 6985
email simon at ipfw.edu


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Feb 21 17:22:25 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:22:25 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <000501c516e0$9be2e1f0$dfc23ed1@yourqt3aq81vb5>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.122225.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"y'all house" as possessive?  I've heard both "y'all's" and "y'allses" as
possessive, but not "y'all."  Do you have "y'allses"?

At 07:10 PM 2/19/2005, you wrote:
>As a white  South Louisianian, I have never heard "Y'all" as a singular
>pronoun, but the use of "y'all's" and "y'all" as a possessive pronoun is
>used.(I passed by y'all's/ y'all house yesterday, but y'all weren't home.)
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:45 PM
>Subject: "Y'all" redux
>
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
>header -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> > Subject:      "Y'all" redux
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-----
> >
> > In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers could,
> > would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
> > posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
> > Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
> > agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
> > his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
> > use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that "y'all"
> > *is* used as a singular.
> >
> > In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
> > that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
> > and Fort Worth.
> >
> > I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
> > farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
> > description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan area
> > in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows that
> > East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
> > English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
> > English.
> >
> > So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
> > depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
> > white.
> >
> > -Wilson Gray
> >


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Feb 21 17:25:51 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:25:51 -0800
Subject: Double-barreled "literal"
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.092551.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just heard my favorite use yet of "literal" to mean its virtual opposite.
When I turned on NPR this morning--about 5 to 7:00--an interviewee was
saying, "It would be a literal cyber-Pearl Harbor."  I didn't hear enough
to get the larger context.

Just thought I'd share.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 21 17:36:39 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:36:39 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.093639.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There are several Scottish dialects / accents.  To Scots, Glaswegians, for example, sound "nothing like" Aberdonians.

JL
Your Name <jimsmuse at COMCAST.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Your Name
Subject: Re: Dialects in film
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned "Coal Miner's Daughter" during this discussion of movie dialects. Every time I see it I am amazed all over again at the consistency of Sissy Spacek's speech in the movie.

Then again, I do know that familiarity with a native speaker can make all the difference. I thought Mel Gibson's Scots in "Braveheart" was fairly believeable, until I had occasion to have a Scottish house-guest for a month. After 3 weeks of the visit, we sat down to watch "Braveheart" together and I was amazed at the difference in my perception of Mel's attempt at an authentic burr after spending time with a Scottish native. Two years later (and after spending extended time in Scotland), I almost cannot bear to watch the movie because the accents sound so awful, and I'm guessing there may be some folks from Loretta Lynn's hometown of Butcher Holler that find "Coal Miner's Daughter" just as difficult to endure...

Other movies that occur to me in fun are "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" and "Valley Girl", both of which contain a California dialect that is "fer shure" different than what we speak here on the East Coast, and both of which added a few phrases to the popular speech of the day.

Respectfully,

Carrie Lowery
jimsmuse at comcast.net







-------------- Original message --------------

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: James Smith
> Subject: Re: Dialects in film
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm from the Rocky Mountains, and I found it
> appalling!
>
>
>
>
> --- Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
> > I understand that Dick Van Dyke's Cockney in "Mary
> > Poppins" is regarded as appalling by many English
> > people.
> >
> > In fact, most stars before the age of intensive
> > dialect coaching just muddled through "dialect"
> > roles. Kevin Costner (CA) was ridiculed for his
> > "Hyannisport" accent in "Fourteen Days," but to a
> > geezer saturated in the JFK era, he seemed OK.
> >
> > Gwyneth Paltrow (CA / MA) as "Emma" ? She sure
> > fooled me !
> >
> > JL
> >
> > "Patti J. Kurtz" wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz"
> > Subject: Dialects in film
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Hi everyone. We've discussed films in which language
> > features
> > prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to
> > compile is a list of
> > films in which the characters speak in dialects.
> > (for example,
> > "Fargo") for my dialects class. I'd like names of
> > both films that
> > represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and
> > those that don't,
> > since we're going to talk about dialects in the
> > media at some point. I
> > can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can
> > think of more. And I'm
> > thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than
> > films like "American
> > Tongues."
> >
> > Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by
> > me and by my
> > students, who are enjoying the course a lot!
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Patti Kurtz
> > Minot State University
> > --
> >
> > Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the
> > monster?
> >
> >
> >
> > Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.
> >
> >
> >
> > Freeman - It's called dedication.
> >
> >
> >
> > Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
> =====
> James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything
> South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued
> jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively
> |or slowly and cautiously.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 21 17:40:46 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:40:46 -0800
Subject: "Y'all" redux
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.094046.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Come to think of it, I've heard "y'allses," but only a few times.  Definitely a working-class usage.

JL

Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Beverly Flanigan
Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"y'all house" as possessive? I've heard both "y'all's" and "y'allses" as
possessive, but not "y'all." Do you have "y'allses"?

At 07:10 PM 2/19/2005, you wrote:
>As a white South Louisianian, I have never heard "Y'all" as a singular
>pronoun, but the use of "y'all's" and "y'all" as a possessive pronoun is
>used.(I passed by y'all's/ y'all house yesterday, but y'all weren't home.)
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Wilson Gray"
>To:
>Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:45 PM
>Subject: "Y'all" redux
>
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
>header -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Wilson Gray
> > Subject: "Y'all" redux
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-----
> >
> > In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers could,
> > would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
> > posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
> > Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
> > agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
> > his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
> > use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that "y'all"
> > *is* used as a singular.
> >
> > In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
> > that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
> > and Fort Worth.
> >
> > I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
> > farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
> > description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan area
> > in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows that
> > East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
> > English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
> > English.
> >
> > So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
> > depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
> > white.
> >
> > -Wilson Gray
> >


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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 21 17:44:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:44:00 -0800
Subject: Double-barreled "literal"
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.094400.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My fave is "ironically," in the well-established media sense of "interestingly."  There seems to be no corresponding usage of "ironic," but I'm sure that a careful Googling would prove me wrong.

JL

"Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Peter A. McGraw"

Subject: Double-barreled "literal"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just heard my favorite use yet of "literal" to mean its virtual opposite.
When I turned on NPR this morning--about 5 to 7:00--an interviewee was
saying, "It would be a literal cyber-Pearl Harbor." I didn't hear enough
to get the larger context.

Just thought I'd share.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************

__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 21 17:49:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:49:00 -0800
Subject: A new phenomenon?
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.094900.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry that the madness overtook the method.  Google up "phenomenas" and find 11,300 on the Web alone.

How long will science ignore this phenomena?  It's feasible that our ancestors will laugh.

JL

"Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Peter A. McGraw"

Subject: Re: A new phenomenon?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--On Sunday, February 20, 2005 1:53 PM -0800 Jonathan Lighter
wrote:

> A quick check of Usenet news groups reveals 1,100 exx. of "these
> phenomenon," 124 for "many phenomenon," and 29 for "number of phenomenon."
>
> There are 5,020 for "phenomenons."

"Phenomenons" and not "phenomenas"?! That's an astounding phenomena!

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************

__________________________________________________
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From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Mon Feb 21 18:20:52 2005
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:20:52 -0600
Subject: dialects in film
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.122052.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Meryl Streep did a fabulous job of some regional Polish dialect in
"Sophie's Choice."

I didn't notice it so much at the time because I had no real frame of
reference. However, several years later I found myself in a pitch black
elevator shaft and descending I-don't-know-how-many-hundred-feet to
view these incredible carved caverns in an old salt mine in Poland. The
darkness was so deep I literally [used literally] could not see my hand
in front of my face when I held it up to test the old colloquialism.
Suddenly, Meryl Streep's "Sophie" rushed into my consciousness. I saw
her as I could not see my hand. The trigger: the local tour guide, a
young woman whose disembodied voice was exactly the same one I had
heard years ago coming from Meryl Streep.

The odd thing is that I hadn't noticed it earlier in the visit.
Presumably because other sensory input had distracted me. But, in the
deep darkness, the mental representation was triggered by the single
sensory input of the tour guide's voice.

sod


From alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 21 18:35:45 2005
From: alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM (Brenda Lester)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:35:45 -0800
Subject: dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <1eec0428d381075b3146750cc5296e3b@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.103545.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Take a look at Ann-Margaret in _Cheap Detective_.  She plays a Romanian posing as an American. She fails because she cannot pronounce the word "baubles." She says, "burbles."

Brenda


"Sally O. Donlon" <sod at LOUISIANA.EDU> wrote:
Meryl Streep did a fabulous job of some regional Polish dialect in
"Sophie's Choice."

I didn't notice it so much at the time because I had no real frame of
reference. However, several years later I found myself in a pitch black
elevator shaft and descending I-don't-know-how-many-hundred-feet to
view these incredible carved caverns in an old salt mine in Poland. The
darkness was so deep I literally [used literally] could not see my hand
in front of my face when I held it up to test the old colloquialism.
Suddenly, Meryl Streep's "Sophie" rushed into my consciousness. I saw
her as I could not see my hand. The trigger: the local tour guide, a
young woman whose disembodied voice was exactly the same one I had
heard years ago coming from Meryl Streep.

The odd thing is that I hadn't noticed it earlier in the visit.
Presumably because other sensory input had distracted me. But, in the
deep darkness, the mental representation was triggered by the single
sensory input of the tour guide's voice.

sod


---------------------------------
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From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Feb 21 18:45:15 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:45:15 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <s219d075.076@groupwise1.ipfw.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.134515.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Beth Simon wrote:
> Kevin Costner and rest of crew  * in if You Build It, They Will Come * sorry, i'm blanking the title * the baseball diamond in a cornfield movie
>
>
> (sorry if this has been mentioned, i've missed some posts)
>

That's _Field of Dreams_.

--
Alice Faber


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Feb 21 19:23:59 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:23:59 -0500
Subject: Singular "yez"?
In-Reply-To: <s1bd5745.099@spartacus.salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.142359.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've been looking back at the "yez/y'all" thread we spun in mid-December
and, at the risk of being redundant, I've picked out a few messages that
seem to tie up loose ends re. this singular/plural issue.  The recognition
that a core Deep South usage may change in its fringe or boundary areas
seems to me important.  Thus West Texas is not East Texas, and maybe
Tennessee and Kentucky (and southern Ohio) exhibit, and tolerate, more
singular "y'all" use than the South does.  And I'm not considering "frozen
idioms" here, of the "Y'all come back soon" variety.

The singular "yez/ye" issue is similar.  I had said I heard Ralph Stanley
use singular "ye," and someone else reported singular "yez" vs. plural
"youse" (in Irish English and in Irish-immigrant areas in America.  The
same might happen with "y'uns/yinz," though I haven't heard these used in
the singular.

I'll listen closely to Ralph Stanley when he comes to Athens in a couple of
weeks (with the Clinch Mt. Boys) and get back to you all!  (That's my
personal, and very comfortable, accommodation to the plural usage, btw.)

Beverly Flanigan
Ohio University

At 11:47 AM 12/13/2004, you wrote:
>I cannot supply anything in print, but I went to grad school with a gal
>from Kentucky (does that disqualify her from being a "genuine
>Southern-speaker"?) who claimed she used y'all as a singular and 'all
>y'all' as the plural (or does that fact that she uses "y'all" as a
>singular disqualify her from being a genuine Southern-speaker?).  I've
>always been amused at the discussions about singular 'y'all' on this list
>and elsewhere.  Most southeners claim that y'll cannot be singular.  But
>they seem to consider only their own dialect, or even idiolect, but not
>the fact that for other people or dialects the case might be different.
>Fritz J
>
> >>> wilson.gray at RCN.COM 12/10/04 07:58PM >>>
>On Dec 10, 2004, at 12:41 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> > Subject:      Re: Singular "yez"?
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> >
> > At 11:21 AM -0500 12/10/04, Alice Faber wrote:
> >>> From a posting in alt.folklore.urban:
> >>
> >>> In the Philly area (I am a recent immigrant) I swear that
> >>> there is a singular pronoun "yez". My family thinks I'm
> >>> hallucinating, or that maybe it's the Brooklynese "youse".
> >>> Neither is true. "Youse" is plural and is quite distinct
> >>> from what I'm hearing, e.g. "would yez like some coffee?"
> >>> AM I hallucinating?
> >>
> >>
> > Wonder if this is the same phenomenon as singular y'all, much
> > discussed here.  As I recall, there was no consensus on whether
> > so-called singular y'all generally involves an implicit reference to
> > others in some contextually understood set to which the singular
> > addressee belongs (e.g. 'you and your family', 'you and the horse you
> > came in with') or whether there's a regional and social
> > differentiation on this.
> >
> > Larry
> >
>
>Can someone supply some examples in which a genuine Southern-speaker or
>a BE speaker uses "y'all"/"you-all" as a singular? I've heard and read
>since the '40's, at least that, y'all/you-all can be used as a
>second-person singular. I have never heard such a use from any white
>Southerners or from any black  person. But I'm willing to grant that
>that could be mere happenstance.
>
>-Wilson Gray


From JIMSMUSE at COMCAST.NET  Mon Feb 21 19:35:42 2005
From: JIMSMUSE at COMCAST.NET (Your Name)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:35:42 +0000
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.193542.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How right you are about the huge regional differences in accent/dialect even in a country as small as Scotland...and how easily I forget that while I avidly read this list because I love words, I am an amateur among word professionals!

I've learned some wonderful things from you all, and appreciate this list a great deal.   "Y'all" are great teachers!

Carrie Lowery
jimsmuse at comcast.net


-------------- Original message --------------

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: Dialects in film
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There are several Scottish dialects / accents. To Scots, Glaswegians, for
> example, sound "nothing like" Aberdonians.
>
> JL
> Your Name wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Your Name
> Subject: Re: Dialects in film
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned "Coal Miner's Daughter" during this
> discussion of movie dialects. Every time I see it I am amazed all over again at
> the consistency of Sissy Spacek's speech in the movie.
>
> Then again, I do know that familiarity with a native speaker can make all the
> difference. I thought Mel Gibson's Scots in "Braveheart" was fairly believeable,
> until I had occasion to have a Scottish house-guest for a month. After 3 weeks
> of the visit, we sat down to watch "Braveheart" together and I was amazed at the
> difference in my perception of Mel's attempt at an authentic burr after spending
> time with a Scottish native. Two years later (and after spending extended time
> in Scotland), I almost cannot bear to watch the movie because the accents sound
> so awful, and I'm guessing there may be some folks from Loretta Lynn's hometown
> of Butcher Holler that find "Coal Miner's Daughter" just as difficult to
> endure...
>
> Other movies that occur to me in fun are "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure"
> and "Valley Girl", both of which contain a California dialect that is "fer
> shure" different than what we speak here on the East Coast, and both of which
> added a few phrases to the popular speech of the day.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Carrie Lowery
> jimsmuse at comcast.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: James Smith
> > Subject: Re: Dialects in film
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I'm from the Rocky Mountains, and I found it
> > appalling!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> >
> > > I understand that Dick Van Dyke's Cockney in "Mary
> > > Poppins" is regarded as appalling by many English
> > > people.
> > >
> > > In fact, most stars before the age of intensive
> > > dialect coaching just muddled through "dialect"
> > > roles. Kevin Costner (CA) was ridiculed for his
> > > "Hyannisport" accent in "Fourteen Days," but to a
> > > geezer saturated in the JFK era, he seemed OK.
> > >
> > > Gwyneth Paltrow (CA / MA) as "Emma" ? She sure
> > > fooled me !
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > > "Patti J. Kurtz" wrote:
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > > header -----------------------
> > > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz"
> > > Subject: Dialects in film
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Hi everyone. We've discussed films in which language
> > > features
> > > prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to
> > > compile is a list of
> > > films in which the characters speak in dialects.
> > > (for example,
> > > "Fargo") for my dialects class. I'd like names of
> > > both films that
> > > represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and
> > > those that don't,
> > > since we're going to talk about dialects in the
> > > media at some point. I
> > > can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can
> > > think of more. And I'm
> > > thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than
> > > films like "American
> > > Tongues."
> > >
> > > Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by
> > > me and by my
> > > students, who are enjoying the course a lot!
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > Patti Kurtz
> > > Minot State University
> > > --
> > >
> > > Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the
> > > monster?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Freeman - It's called dedication.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > > protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything
> > South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued
> > jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively
> > |or slowly and cautiously.
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
> > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Feb 21 19:35:29 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:35:29 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <20050220232538.91109.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.143529.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One more comment on the following comment:  I hesitate to call
"yinz/y'all/youse" use "lower register" or "working class" (as someone else
said with reference to "y'allses").  These may well be such ordinary and
widespread indicators of regional usage that they transcend both class and
register distinctions.  A former student of mine, from a wealthy urban
family, used "y'allses" with no self-consciousness at all.  Just a
cautionary note on labeling usage that's a marker to outsiders as marked
for register and class (or education or age) within a particular region.


>"Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
>Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >Would somebody please post a reference to a seemingly intelligent printed
> >source - or any source - that confidently asserts that Southerners address
> >individuals as "y'all"? It would be nice if the source was more recent
> >than, say, 1930, but I'll take anything. It would be good to know exactly
> >what it is that is being defended against.
>
>Crystal's recent book does assert that Fort Worthers (or is it "Worthians"
>or "Forteans"?) do this. The first example he encountered (IIRC) was from
>the clerk or storekeeper where he went to buy a Stetson hat. I wasn't there
>and I've never seen Crystal or heard him speak, but one thing which tends
>to be near a Texas hotel in my limited experience is a store selling
>Stetsons, tooled boots, etc. to tourists from such places as London, Tokyo,
>and Chicago. With clerks necessarily quite conscious of their Texan-ness
>(or is that "Texianity"?). Crystal does recount other examples of singular
>"y'all", but again there is reason to suspect that some may put on this
>sort of thing for the furriners.
>
>What is the opposite of "hypercorrection" again? I live in Pittsburgh. Many
>Pittsburghers use "you-uns"/"yinz" as the plural of "you", some don't, but
>essentially everybody knows that the 'correct' or 'standard' version is
>"you" [pl.]. So "yinz" is either lower-register or explicitly-local. In
>order to sound even more homey/slangy/explicitly-local one might go one
>step further and put "yinz" for every instance of "you", singular or
>plural. I'm sure I've encountered this, although not often. The same might
>occur elsewhere, IMHO, with "y'all", for example, or "youse", in US or UK.
>
>-- Doug Wilson


From morzinsk.mary at UWLAX.EDU  Mon Feb 21 23:03:42 2005
From: morzinsk.mary at UWLAX.EDU (Morzinski Mary E)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:03:42 -0600
Subject: Call for papers
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.170342.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is a nearly last call for papers on any aspect of language
variation to be presented at the ADS meeting at the Rocky Mountain
Modern Language Association in Coeur d'Alene, ID, October 20-22, 2005.
Please send abstracts by March 1 to Mary Morzinski

Dept. of English UW-L

La Crosse, WI 54601

morzinsk.mary at uwlax.edu

608-785-8300


From rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Feb 21 23:15:47 2005
From: rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ray Villegas)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:15:47 -0700
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <022120051935.17433.421A380E0004CB03000044192200763704BAACAAB3ACB3B7B6@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.161547.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20050221/9108d79f/attachment.html>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 21 23:31:29 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:31:29 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.153129.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Have been informed that at least some Brits think Renee's English accent was so bad "it almost ruined the movie" !  Who knows ?

Colin Ferrell's American accent in "Tigerland" was absolutely credible to me.  Don't know how he does with Ancient Macedonian, though.

JL

Ray Villegas <rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Ray Villegas
Subject: Re: Dialects in film
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Colin Ferral, from Dublin, Ireland, does a great job in "Phone Booth." He does a New York City accent. In some of Colin's movies he goes in and out of his Irish accent but for the most part he stays in character.


Brad Pitt didn't have a full accent in Troy but it was one that "colored" his lines. It was enough to fool people that wouldn't be accostumed to hearing a lot of accents.


Also Brad Pitt in "Snatch" immitates an Irish Pikey Accent. He does a good job in speaking quickly and making you feel confused. It almost sounds a little forced but he carries it enough to get through the part.


Billy Elliot has English, Irish, and Scottish actors that do North East England Accent. This is a fun movie to hear different ways of using the words "like" and "then" and other socialinguistic words.


"MatchMaker" is fun to watch to hear the Southern Ireland Accent. Most of the actors are from Ireland.


In "Gangs of New York" Leonardo DeCarpio goes in and out of the Irish accent. It was the worst performance of an accent that I've heard in awhile. His collegues Henry Thomas (played the boy in ET) and Daniel Day Lewis were superb in their accents. Daniel Day Lewis is from Ireland and did an 1800 New York City Accent and Henry Thomas did an Irish accent.


Nicole Kidman, Jude Law and Rene Zellweger are very believable in a lot of movies they do. All three were in Cold Mountain and were able to come across quite Southern. You don't realize how strong of an Australian accent Nicole has until you hear her in an interview.


I have tons more but I am drawing a blank. I hope this helps.


Ray Villegas
Arizona State University






"Music is the language of the spirit. It opens the secret of life bringing peace, abolishing strife." --Kahlil Gibran







---------------------------------
Find files on your PC instantly with the new MSN Toolbar Suite beta � FREE!


---------------------------------
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From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Feb 21 23:59:51 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 18:59:51 -0500
Subject: dialects in movies
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.185951.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Don't forget "The Harder They Come" (Jamaican English, so basilectal the
first third of the movie has subtitles) and of course "My Fair Lady" (for
SBE and Cockney).


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Feb 21 23:56:09 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 18:56:09 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <20050221233129.35442.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.185609.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It should be noted that Renee Zellweger (in "Cold Mountain," not whatever
that ditzy English movie and its sequel were called) and Jude Law were
supposed to sound Southern Mountain, while Nicole Kidman was the genteel
Charleston-born lady.  So they represent Deep South vs. Mountain, not just
Southern.

And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or Trojan?! (I never saw the
movie, thankfully!)

At 06:31 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote:
>Have been informed that at least some Brits think Renee's English accent
>was so bad "it almost ruined the movie" !  Who knows ?
>
>Colin Ferrell's American accent in "Tigerland" was absolutely credible to
>me.  Don't know how he does with Ancient Macedonian, though.
>
>JL
>
>Ray Villegas <rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Ray Villegas
>Subject: Re: Dialects in film
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Colin Ferral, from Dublin, Ireland, does a great job in "Phone Booth." He
>does a New York City accent. In some of Colin's movies he goes in and out
>of his Irish accent but for the most part he stays in character.
>
>
>Brad Pitt didn't have a full accent in "Troy" but it was one that
>"colored" his lines. It was enough to fool people that wouldn't be
>accostumed to hearing a lot of accents.
>
>
>Also Brad Pitt in "Snatch" immitates an Irish Pikey Accent. He does a good
>job in speaking quickly and making you feel confused. It almost sounds a
>little forced but he carries it enough to get through the part.
>
>
>"Billy Elliot" has English, Irish, and Scottish actors that do North East
>England Accent. This is a fun movie to hear different ways of using the
>words "like" and "then" and other socialinguistic words.
>
>
>"MatchMaker" is fun to watch to hear the Southern Ireland Accent. Most of
>the actors are from Ireland.
>
>
>In "Gangs of New York" Leonardo DeCarpio goes in and out of the Irish
>accent. It was the worst performance of an accent that I've heard in
>awhile. His collegues Henry Thomas (played the boy in ET) and Daniel Day
>Lewis were superb in their accents. Daniel Day Lewis is from Ireland and
>did an 1800 New York City Accent and Henry Thomas did an Irish accent.
>
>
>Nicole Kidman, Jude Law and Rene Zellweger are very believable in a lot of
>movies they do. All three were in Cold Mountain and were able to come
>across quite Southern. You don't realize how strong of an Australian
>accent Nicole has until you hear her in an interview.
>
>
>I have tons more but I am drawing a blank. I hope this helps.
>
>
>Ray Villegas
>Arizona State University
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"Music is the language of the spirit. It opens the secret of life bringing
>peace, abolishing strife." --Kahlil Gibran
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Find files on your PC instantly with the new MSN Toolbar Suite beta ­ FREE!
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 00:23:58 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:23:58 -0800
Subject: illegitament
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.162358.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A Google search - don't ask why - turns up well over 600 exx. of "illegitament."

Other spellings are possible.

JL

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 00:30:14 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:30:14 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.163014.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Both Kidman and Zellwegger sesounded OK in "Cold Mountain," but maybe I'm too liberal a judge.

JL

Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Beverly Flanigan
Subject: Re: Dialects in film
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It should be noted that Renee Zellweger (in "Cold Mountain," not whatever
that ditzy English movie and its sequel were called) and Jude Law were
supposed to sound Southern Mountain, while Nicole Kidman was the genteel
Charleston-born lady. So they represent Deep South vs. Mountain, not just
Southern.

And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or Trojan?! (I never saw the
movie, thankfully!)

At 06:31 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote:
>Have been informed that at least some Brits think Renee's English accent
>was so bad "it almost ruined the movie" ! Who knows ?
>
>Colin Ferrell's American accent in "Tigerland" was absolutely credible to
>me. Don't know how he does with Ancient Macedonian, though.
>
>JL
>
>Ray Villegas wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Ray Villegas
>Subject: Re: Dialects in film
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Colin Ferral, from Dublin, Ireland, does a great job in "Phone Booth." He
>does a New York City accent. In some of Colin's movies he goes in and out
>of his Irish accent but for the most part he stays in character.
>
>
>Brad Pitt didn't have a full accent in "Troy" but it was one that
>"colored" his lines. It was enough to fool people that wouldn't be
>accostumed to hearing a lot of accents.
>
>
>Also Brad Pitt in "Snatch" immitates an Irish Pikey Accent. He does a good
>job in speaking quickly and making you feel confused. It almost sounds a
>little forced but he carries it enough to get through the part.
>
>
>"Billy Elliot" has English, Irish, and Scottish actors that do North East
>England Accent. This is a fun movie to hear different ways of using the
>words "like" and "then" and other socialinguistic words.
>
>
>"MatchMaker" is fun to watch to hear the Southern Ireland Accent. Most of
>the actors are from Ireland.
>
>
>In "Gangs of New York" Leonardo DeCarpio goes in and out of the Irish
>accent. It was the worst performance of an accent that I've heard in
>awhile. His collegues Henry Thomas (played the boy in ET) and Daniel Day
>Lewis were superb in their accents. Daniel Day Lewis is from Ireland and
>did an 1800 New York City Accent and Henry Thomas did an Irish accent.
>
>
>Nicole Kidman, Jude Law and Rene Zellweger are very believable in a lot of
>movies they do. All three were in Cold Mountain and were able to come
>across quite Southern. You don't realize how strong of an Australian
>accent Nicole has until you hear her in an interview.
>
>
>I have tons more but I am drawing a blank. I hope this helps.
>
>
>Ray Villegas
>Arizona State University
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"Music is the language of the spirit. It opens the secret of life bringing
>peace, abolishing strife." --Kahlil Gibran
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Find files on your PC instantly with the new MSN Toolbar Suite beta &shy; FREE!
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 00:53:37 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:53:37 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <20050222003014.26668.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.195337.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I agree with you--and I was particularly impressed by Jude Law.

At 07:30 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote:
>Both Kidman and Zellwegger sounded OK in "Cold Mountain," but maybe I'm
>too liberal a judge.
>
>JL
>
>Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Beverly Flanigan
>Subject: Re: Dialects in film
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>It should be noted that Renee Zellweger (in "Cold Mountain," not whatever
>that ditzy English movie and its sequel were called) and Jude Law were
>supposed to sound Southern Mountain, while Nicole Kidman was the genteel
>Charleston-born lady. So they represent Deep South vs. Mountain, not just
>Southern.
>
>And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or Trojan?! (I never saw the
>movie, thankfully!)
>
>At 06:31 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote:
> >Have been informed that at least some Brits think Renee's English accent
> >was so bad "it almost ruined the movie" ! Who knows ?
> >
> >Colin Ferrell's American accent in "Tigerland" was absolutely credible to
> >me. Don't know how he does with Ancient Macedonian, though.
> >
> >JL
> >
> >Ray Villegas wrote:
> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >-----------------------
> >Sender: American Dialect Society
> >Poster: Ray Villegas
> >Subject: Re: Dialects in film
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> >
> >
> >Colin Ferral, from Dublin, Ireland, does a great job in "Phone Booth." He
> >does a New York City accent. In some of Colin's movies he goes in and out
> >of his Irish accent but for the most part he stays in character.
> >
> >
> >Brad Pitt didn't have a full accent in "Troy" but it was one that
> >"colored" his lines. It was enough to fool people that wouldn't be
> >accostumed to hearing a lot of accents.
> >
> >
> >Also Brad Pitt in "Snatch" immitates an Irish Pikey Accent. He does a good
> >job in speaking quickly and making you feel confused. It almost sounds a
> >little forced but he carries it enough to get through the part.
> >
> >
> >"Billy Elliot" has English, Irish, and Scottish actors that do North East
> >England Accent. This is a fun movie to hear different ways of using the
> >words "like" and "then" and other socialinguistic words.
> >
> >
> >"MatchMaker" is fun to watch to hear the Southern Ireland Accent. Most of
> >the actors are from Ireland.
> >
> >
> >In "Gangs of New York" Leonardo DeCarpio goes in and out of the Irish
> >accent. It was the worst performance of an accent that I've heard in
> >awhile. His collegues Henry Thomas (played the boy in ET) and Daniel Day
> >Lewis were superb in their accents. Daniel Day Lewis is from Ireland and
> >did an 1800 New York City Accent and Henry Thomas did an Irish accent.
> >
> >
> >Nicole Kidman, Jude Law and Rene Zellweger are very believable in a lot of
> >movies they do. All three were in Cold Mountain and were able to come
> >across quite Southern. You don't realize how strong of an Australian
> >accent Nicole has until you hear her in an interview.
> >
> >
> >I have tons more but I am drawing a blank. I hope this helps.
> >
> >
> >Ray Villegas
> >Arizona State University
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >"Music is the language of the spirit. It opens the secret of life bringing
> >peace, abolishing strife." --Kahlil Gibran
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >Find files on your PC instantly with the new MSN Toolbar Suite beta
> &shy; FREE!
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA  Tue Feb 22 01:21:54 2005
From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:21:54 -0500
Subject: illegitament
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.202154.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think "illegitament" does call for a linguistic explanation. Compare
mischievious (5,300), pronounciation (231,000), and wierd (1,580,000) which
are understandable.

T. M. P.
www.paikeday.net


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Lighter" <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:23 PM
Subject: illegitament


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      illegitament
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> A Google search - don't ask why - turns up well over 600 exx. of
> "illegitament."
>
> Other spellings are possible.
>
> JL
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 01:32:11 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:32:11 -0800
Subject: illegitament
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.173211.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Cf. "indiscriminate / ~minite" (805,000) and "indiscriminant / ~manent" (16,700) on Web alone.

JL

Thomas Paikeday <thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Thomas Paikeday
Subject: Re: illegitament
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think "illegitament" does call for a linguistic explanation. Compare
mischievious (5,300), pronounciation (231,000), and wierd (1,580,000) which
are understandable.

T. M. P.
www.paikeday.net


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Lighter"
To:
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:23 PM
Subject: illegitament


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: illegitament
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> A Google search - don't ask why - turns up well over 600 exx. of
> "illegitament."
>
> Other spellings are possible.
>
> JL
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From preston at MSU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 01:52:21 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:52:21 -0500
Subject: illegitament
In-Reply-To: <20050222013211.76363.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.205221.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A linguistic explanation is available. See David Stamp's "Why some
people live in the Uninted States." Must be in OSU Working Papers
somewhere.

dInIs



>Cf. "indiscriminate / ~minite" (805,000) and "indiscriminant /
>~manent" (16,700) on Web alone.
>
>JL
>
>Thomas Paikeday <thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Thomas Paikeday
>Subject: Re: illegitament
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I think "illegitament" does call for a linguistic explanation. Compare
>mischievious (5,300), pronounciation (231,000), and wierd (1,580,000) which
>are understandable.
>
>T. M. P.
>www.paikeday.net
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jonathan Lighter"
>To:
>Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:23 PM
>Subject: illegitament
>
>
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail
>>  header -----------------------
>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
>>  Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>  Subject: illegitament
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  A Google search - don't ask why - turns up well over 600 exx. of
>>  "illegitament."
>>
>>  Other spellings are possible.
>>
>>  JL
>>
>>  __________________________________________________
>>  Do You Yahoo!?
>>  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>  http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Tue Feb 22 02:24:46 2005
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:24:46 -0500
Subject: wile away
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.212446.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For some reason, it came to my attention only this day that writers use -
and have used - wile for while in the phrase "while away." I became aware
of the usage when I finally caught up on my newspaper reading and read my
Feb, 11 WSJ, seeing therein a sentence ending, " ... it is no more - or
less - impressive than the activities of Palm Beach 'society' matrons who
wile away their days planning charity balls and the like." Even after
checking the OED entry, I was surprised that I had encountered this in the
WSJ. Is it taking over?

Bethany


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb 22 02:25:23 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:25:23 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <E1D3HNg-00024m-02@mx04.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.212523.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Y'all house," with "y'all" interpreted as possessive would be standard
in Black English, if there was a standard version of that dialect.

-Wilson

On Feb 21, 2005, at 12:22 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Y'all" redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "y'all house" as possessive?  I've heard both "y'all's" and "y'allses"
> as
> possessive, but not "y'all."  Do you have "y'allses"?
>
> At 07:10 PM 2/19/2005, you wrote:
>> As a white  South Louisianian, I have never heard "Y'all" as a
>> singular
>> pronoun, but the use of "y'all's" and "y'all" as a possessive pronoun
>> is
>> used.(I passed by y'all's/ y'all house yesterday, but y'all weren't
>> home.)
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:45 PM
>> Subject: "Y'all" redux
>>
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
>> header -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>>> Subject:      "Y'all" redux
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -----
>> -----
>>>
>>> In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers
>>> could,
>>> would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
>>> posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
>>> Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
>>> agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
>>> his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
>>> use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that
>>> "y'all"
>>> *is* used as a singular.
>>>
>>> In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
>>> that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
>>> and Fort Worth.
>>>
>>> I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
>>> farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
>>> description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan
>>> area
>>> in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows
>>> that
>>> East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
>>> English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
>>> English.
>>>
>>> So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
>>> depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
>>> white.
>>>
>>> -Wilson Gray
>>>
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 02:30:30 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:30:30 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <BAY104-F40546D1E74DC2EA1AEAEB8FE610@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.213030.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:15 PM -0700 2/21/05, Ray Villegas wrote:
>
>Nicole Kidman, Jude Law and Rene Zellweger are very believable in a
>lot of movies they do. All three were in Cold Mountain and were able
>to come across quite Southern. You don't realize how strong of an
>Australian accent Nicole has until you hear her in an interview.
>
Indeed.  As it happens, I was just listening to her on the "extras"
CD accompanying Cold Mountain, in which she participated in a staged
reading of passages from the novel and other material, and in that
her accent was far less Southern than in the movie, but not at all
her native Australian (in which she spoke elsewhere on the CD, when
she was talking about her participating in the film, gratitude toward
the director and co-stars, etc.).  More like the accent she uses in
"Eyes Wide Shut" but with maybe a slight coloring of Southern.  Jude
Law used his standard British accent for the readings, or at least
his very nice reading from the Book of Job.

Larry


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb 22 02:35:35 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:35:35 -0500
Subject: A new phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <E1D3Hg7-00067t-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.213535.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

",,,, _feasible_ that our ancestors will laugh"?

-Wilson

On Feb 21, 2005, at 12:49 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: A new phenomenon?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Sorry that the madness overtook the method.  Google up "phenomenas"
> and find 11,300 on the Web alone.
>
> How long will science ignore this phenomena?  It's feasible that our
> ancestors will laugh.
>
> JL
>
> "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Peter A. McGraw"
>
> Subject: Re: A new phenomenon?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> --On Sunday, February 20, 2005 1:53 PM -0800 Jonathan Lighter
> wrote:
>
>> A quick check of Usenet news groups reveals 1,100 exx. of "these
>> phenomenon," 124 for "many phenomenon," and 29 for "number of
>> phenomenon."
>>
>> There are 5,020 for "phenomenons."
>
> "Phenomenons" and not "phenomenas"?! That's an astounding phenomena!
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> *****************************************************************
> Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon
> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 02:46:21 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:46:21 -0500
Subject: dialects in movies
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050221185816.02db0028@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.214621.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:59 PM -0500 2/21/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Don't forget "The Harder They Come" (Jamaican English, so basilectal the
>first third of the movie has subtitles)

ditto "Cool Running", the movie about the Jamaican bobsled team


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb 22 03:01:18 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:01:18 -0500
Subject: dialects in movies
In-Reply-To: <E1D3Nct-00066g-00@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.220118.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Harder They Come is one of my favorite movies. I've seen it dozens
of times. But it's always seemed to me that the subtitles are supplied
only in those cases in which the dialogue would have been understood in
any case: "Me stahp chase Ivan. Me staht chase *you*!" Bockside! ;-)

-Wilson


On Feb 21, 2005, at 6:59 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> Subject:      dialects in movies
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Don't forget "The Harder They Come" (Jamaican English, so basilectal
> the
> first third of the movie has subtitles) and of course "My Fair Lady"
> (for
> SBE and Cockney).
>


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 03:06:40 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:06:40 -0500
Subject: A new phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <20050221174901.86605.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.220640.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I suspect that it will be a brief phenomenon.  My guess is that the trail
blazed by memorandum will be the path to follow: memorandum; memoranda:
memorandums/memorandas: fugidaboudit: memos.  So: phenomenon/phenomena:
phenoms.  Google gives 40,900 hits for phenoms.  I'm still lamenting the
loss of fewer which has been replaced by less.  Phenoms is not reall English
anyway.  This usage stuff is all Greek to me.

Jim Stalker


Jonathan Lighter writes:

> Sorry that the madness overtook the method.  Google up "phenomenas" and find 11,300 on the Web alone.
>
> How long will science ignore this phenomena?  It's feasible that our ancestors will laugh.
>
> JL
>
> "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Peter A. McGraw"
>
> Subject: Re: A new phenomenon?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --On Sunday, February 20, 2005 1:53 PM -0800 Jonathan Lighter
> wrote:
>
>> A quick check of Usenet news groups reveals 1,100 exx. of "these
>> phenomenon," 124 for "many phenomenon," and 29 for "number of phenomenon."
>>
>> There are 5,020 for "phenomenons."
>
> "Phenomenons" and not "phenomenas"?! That's an astounding phenomena!
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> *****************************************************************
> Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon
> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb 22 03:12:33 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:12:33 -0500
Subject: illegitament
In-Reply-To: <E1D3PDt-0004qO-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.221233.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInIs, I'd like to mention that I spent a goodly portion of my
childhood and youth in the Uninted States. In fact, I have relatives
and friends who still live there.

-Wilson

On Feb 21, 2005, at 8:52 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: illegitament
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> A linguistic explanation is available. See David Stamp's "Why some
> people live in the Uninted States." Must be in OSU Working Papers
> somewhere.
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
>> Cf. "indiscriminate / ~minite" (805,000) and "indiscriminant /
>> ~manent" (16,700) on Web alone.
>>
>> JL
>>
>> Thomas Paikeday <thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Thomas Paikeday
>> Subject: Re: illegitament
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>>
>> I think "illegitament" does call for a linguistic explanation. Compare
>> mischievious (5,300), pronounciation (231,000), and wierd (1,580,000)
>> which
>> are understandable.
>>
>> T. M. P.
>> www.paikeday.net
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jonathan Lighter"
>> To:
>> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:23 PM
>> Subject: illegitament
>>
>>
>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>  header -----------------------
>>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>  Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>>  Subject: illegitament
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ----------
>>>
>>>  A Google search - don't ask why - turns up well over 600 exx. of
>>>  "illegitament."
>>>
>>>  Other spellings are possible.
>>>
>>>  JL
>>>
>>>  __________________________________________________
>>>  Do You Yahoo!?
>>>  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>  http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African
> Languages
> A-740 Wells Hall
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824
> Phone: (517) 432-3099
> Fax: (517) 432-2736
> preston at msu.edu
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 03:39:37 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:39:37 -0800
Subject: A new phenomenon?
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.193937.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Get with it, bro !  All us young dudes say "feasible" when we mean "plausible" !

You must not watch enough TV news !

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: A new phenomenon?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

",,,, _feasible_ that our ancestors will laugh"?

-Wilson

On Feb 21, 2005, at 12:49 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: A new phenomenon?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Sorry that the madness overtook the method. Google up "phenomenas"
> and find 11,300 on the Web alone.
>
> How long will science ignore this phenomena? It's feasible that our
> ancestors will laugh.
>
> JL
>
> "Peter A. McGraw"
wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Peter A. McGraw"
>
> Subject: Re: A new phenomenon?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> --On Sunday, February 20, 2005 1:53 PM -0800 Jonathan Lighter
> wrote:
>
>> A quick check of Usenet news groups reveals 1,100 exx. of "these
>> phenomenon," 124 for "many phenomenon," and 29 for "number of
>> phenomenon."
>>
>> There are 5,020 for "phenomenons."
>
> "Phenomenons" and not "phenomenas"?! That's an astounding phenomena!
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> *****************************************************************
> Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon
> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 05:14:15 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:14:15 -0500
Subject: Spaghetti Western (1967), Chili Western (1995)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.001415.0500.>

* spaghetti Western (OED2/MW11 1969)

Fred Shapiro already gave a 1968 antedating:
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0412D&L=ads-l&P=R6797&m=26432

-----
1967 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ 11 Oct. 38/1 Lee Van Cleef is not at the
moment a name on the tips of millions of American tongues.  But it is
almost as familiar as pasta on Italian tongues here in Rome since the
release of what have come to be known as the spaghetti Westerns. (The
newest one now showing in America is "For a Few Dollars More.")
-----

OED's 1969 cite is from Mario Pei, who also gives "Sukiyaki Western" for
the Japanese equivalent.  I noticed another variation, "Chili Western", in
the Sunday Times:

     http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/20/movies/20ciuk.html
     New York Times, Feb. 20, 2005
     Chili westerns and movies about hookers and narcs dominated
     Mexican cinema during the 1980's and half of the 90's.

-----
1995 _Film Comment_ Nov/Dec (FindArticles) Of the bizarre series of what
Ripstein calls "Chili-Westerns," the most notable exponent was the
director Alberto Mariscal, who brought to them some of the same weird
atmosphere that David Lynch unleashed on Leave It to Beaver-land.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1069/is_n6_v31/ai_17934692/pg_3
-----

Surely there are earlier cites for "chili Western"-- online sources
suggest that the term was popularized in Mexico in the wake of the first
spaghetti westerns of the mid-'60s...

-----
http://www.mexicodesconocido.com.mx/english/cultura_y_sociedad/arte/detalle.cfm?idsec=14&idsub=57&idpag=1041
México en el Tiempo # 38 september-october 2000
When the Spaghetti Westerns were made in Italy, Mexico didn’t waste any
time coming up with the Chili Western. These were mostly directed by Rubén
Galindo and the score was always written by Gustavo César Carrión.
-----
http://www.febiofest.cz/11_en/detail_filmu.php?filmid=2004128
Febio Fest 2004
Arturo Ripstein is one of the best known Mexican directors of our time. He
got his start as a director´s assistant on Luis Bunuel´s film The
Exterminating Angel (1962). His directorial début came in 1965 with the
chili western Tiempo de morir, with a screenplay by Columbian writer
Gabriel García Márquez - who was later to win the Nobel prize for
literature.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From niall113 at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Feb 22 05:45:27 2005
From: niall113 at HOTMAIL.COM (ernest vivo)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 05:45:27 +0000
Subject: Call for papers: a tidbit
In-Reply-To: <MC1-F387h0webTCln3N000320a5@mc1-f38.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.054527.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20050222/3fa3253c/attachment.html>

From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 06:04:45 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 01:04:45 -0500
Subject: 'walk of shame' origin?
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.010445.0500.>

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:41:03 +0000, neil <neil at TYPOG.CO.UK> wrote:

>'This was something I had vowed never to do, put myself in the hook-up
>position in someone's fraternity house. Because nothing's anonymous at this
>school, despite what you'd think from the size. A walk of shame the next
>morning would definitely make 34th Street [last 2 words italicised].'
>
>-Rachel Solar-Tuttle, 'number 6 fumbles', Pocket Books, NY, 2002, 39
>
>I understand the concept, but wondered if the origin is sexual or sporting,
>and would be interested to learn of it's earliest occurrence.

Military academies might be the ultimate source.  The earliest Nexis cite
is in a review of Pat Conroy's _Lords of Discipline_ (1980), a novel about
life at a Southern military academy:

-----
Washington Post, Oct 23, 1980, D1
When one of your [sc. Pat Conroy's] characters is expelled on an honor
violation and takes the Walk of Shame, it means that none of his
classmates will ever mention his name again.
...
"I like to ask questions. For example, I interviewed several former cadets
who underwent the Walk of Shame and similar military-school disciplinary
measures, and guess what? A lot of times their lives were ruined by it."
-----

Conroy's book is searchable on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0553381563/?v=search-inside&keywords=walk-of-shame

The earliest cite I've found for the sexual sense is from 1991:

-----
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=136085
Harvard Crimson, March 19, 1991
And at 5 a.m. on a Sunday morning, there's nothing better than a friendly
face to welcome you back home as you take your "walk of shame" past the BD
[sc. Bell's Desk].
-----

I'm pretty sure the expression was already in collegiate parlance by the
mid- to late '80s.


--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 07:29:23 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 02:29:23 -0500
Subject: So's your old man, Press the flesh, Give me five, etc. (1925)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.022923.0500.>

I recently discovered that the Harvard Crimson now has online archives all
the way back to the newspaper's founding in 1873.  The OCR is quite spotty
in places, and the original page images aren't given, but there's
definitely some good stuff in there.

For starters, here's an interesting piece from 1925:

-----
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=430182
The Harvard Crimson
Published on Friday, December 18, 1925

COLLEGE SLANG LOFTY IS CATLETT'S CLAIM
ORIGIN OF "SO'S YOUR OLD MAN" IS FINALLY DIVULGED

No writer attributed

"Most college slang goes a mile over the heads of the common run of
theatre goers," remarked Walter Catlett, comedian in "Lady, Be Good" as he
disentangled himself from a small boy costume, following last night's
performance at the Colonial Theatre.

"The expressions and terms which originate in the colleges and
universities as a rule have both the subtle, and the extremely ridiculous
elements which make good humor. They are, however, of too local a nature
to be appreciated by most audiences. The primary requirement of the stage
"wise crack" is that it be comprehensible to a majority of the listeners.

"Many a current slang phrase or expression is the creation of a dizzy
brain overheard and remembered by a clearer head. The streets of New York
between midnight and dawn, when the inebriates come sailing home, are
productive fields for the professional wise cracker," answered Mr. Catlett
when asked about the source of his humorous sayings.

American Negro Is Slang Producer

"Then there is the American Negro probably the most slang productive race
in the world. It was the Southern darky who first spoke of his tired and
aching feet as 'dogs'. This word has gone through a hundred stages of
development and its ramifications and embellishments are to be found in
the daily conversation of many people today. Slang is the effort to
economize in the use of words--to make a single one do the work of several
sentences--as well as to be funny.

"For example 'hot dog' or 'hot diggedy dog' the latter one of my own
expressions, are exclamations of joy which express more than could be
conveyed in half a dozen sentences."

Mr. Catlett, who first gained great popularity a few years ago in "Sally,"
when he played a comedy part along with Leon Errol, has invented a number
of widely used and expressive phrases Among them are "So's your old man,"
and "Press the flesh," "Give me five," and "Mitt me," the last three all
invitations to shake hands.

Italian Invented "So's Your--"

"The phrase 'So's your old man' came to me while in a rather an amusing
situation. It was at a benefit banquet and a group of actors, including
myself, were waiting on the tables. A little Italian buss boy volunteered
to explain to me my duties. The last sentence of his very broken and
totally unintelligible discourse sounded like some remarks about my 'old
man,' so I replied 'So is your old man' and the expression started. As you
can see the emphasis was, in its first use, on the third word."

-----


--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 07:37:22 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 02:37:22 -0500
Subject: nurdiness (1969)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.023722.0500.>

HDAS has "nurd" and "nurdy" back to 1960 (from the Yale Record), but
nothing for "nurdiness" (OED3 dates "nerdiness" to 1983).

-----
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=494792
The Harvard Crimson
Published on Tuesday, April 22, 1969

Davies, the third improved veteran, has what superficially appears an easy
task as Sir Joseph Porter, K.C.B.; he must consistently be a pompous nurd.
However, English nurdiness is not the easiest of qualities to maintain,
particularly for a Welshman, and his hysterically funny success in doing
so is certainly the strongest characterization in the entire cast.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 08:18:32 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 03:18:32 -0500
Subject: grind (1874)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.031832.0500.>

grind, n. 'an excessively diligent student' (HDAS a1889, OED2 1893)

-----
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=292517
The Harvard Crimson, January 09, 1874
The inveterate "grind" may pursue his favorite study all day long with no
interruption from noisy neighbors.
-----
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=302218
The Harvard Crimson, February 13, 1874
The student who studies only for marks, the conventional "grind," is one
of the poorest products of a college.
-----
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=280674
The Harvard Crimson, November 03, 1876
Now, a reflecting man would pronounce at once that such a state of opinion
ought not to exist in "the foremost college in America." He would question
whether the working man does not, after all, get the best of Harvard
culture, and whether the "grind," discountenancing, of course, a too
persistent and unhealthy devotion to study, is not, on the whole, more
worthy of admiration and respect than the "swell." I suspect that much of
our affected contempt for a "dig" is a result of indolence. It is very
convenient for a lazy man to express the opinion that "grinds" and
"grinding" are a bore, but such an opinion, he may be sure, won't in the
end be a paying one.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 10:42:32 2005
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 02:42:32 -0800
Subject: Give me five, etc. (1925)
In-Reply-To: <30838.69.142.143.59.1109057363.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.024232.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Was Walter Catlett black? I thought "give me five" (and probably "press the flesh") was a black-invented phrase.

Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU> wrote:Mr. Catlett, who first gained great popularity a few years ago in "Sally,"
when he played a comedy part along with Leon Errol, has invented a number
of widely used and expressive phrases Among them are "So's your old man,"
and "Press the flesh," "Give me five," and "Mitt me," the last three all
invitations to shake hands.




---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 12:25:59 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:25:59 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Yalie"
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.072559.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yalie (OED 1969)

1941 _Harvard Crimson_ 22 Nov. When we were much younger we had the
enlightening experience of reading a book about a Yalie named Frank
Merriwell.

Fred Shapiro


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 12:38:50 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:38:50 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Preppie"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502200821230.15869-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.073850.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

preppie, n. (OED 1970)

1956 _Harvard Crimson_ 29 Mar.  Eliot [House at Harvard] is crawling with
preppies.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 12:54:24 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:54:24 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Jock"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502220724130.11645-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.075424.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

jock (OED, jock5, 2., 1963; HDAS 1958 [citation contributed by me])

1957 _Harvard Crimson_ 22 Mar.  Despite its current appellation as the
"Jock" House, Winthrop remains one of the most versatile yet homogeneous
houses at Harvard.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 14:40:57 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:40:57 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Yalie"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502220724130.11645-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.094057.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:25 AM -0500 2/22/05, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>Yalie (OED 1969)
>
>1941 _Harvard Crimson_ 22 Nov. When we were much younger we had the
>enlightening experience of reading a book about a Yalie named Frank
>Merriwell.
>
>Fred Shapiro

Ouch.  Hard to imagine the credit for the first cite will end up
going to the Crimson, of all sources.  There *has* to be a New
Havenite antedate for this!  Was the Yale Record staff too busy
eating their hot dogs and tossing their frisbees to attest "Yalie"?
Or the Yale Daily News?  Sigh.

Larry


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Feb 22 14:45:01 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:45:01 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Yalie"
In-Reply-To: <p04320408be40f46ff4f1@[130.132.245.221]>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.094501.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Feb 22, 2005 at 09:40:57AM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> Ouch.  Hard to imagine the credit for the first cite will end up
> going to the Crimson, of all sources.  There *has* to be a New
> Havenite antedate for this!  Was the Yale Record staff too busy
> eating their hot dogs and tossing their frisbees to attest "Yalie"?
> Or the Yale Daily News?  Sigh.

Perhaps it was more common for members of the Other Body to be
discussing Yale than Yale discussing itself.

More likely, perhaps you should just get the YR folk to sit down
with the computer folk and say, "Yo, the Crimson is all over us!
You gotta get us online!"

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU  Tue Feb 22 15:11:35 2005
From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:11:35 -0600
Subject: dialects in movies
In-Reply-To: <200502220247.j1M2lG1m029377@bama.ua.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.091135.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And don't forget Rockers for Jamaican dialects. Shows interesting
dialect variation on the island. I use it in my intro to linguistics.
Has atrocious subtitles, but those provide for great discussion
regarding what kinds of decisions are made in depicting/translating the
film's dialogue for the audience.

My dissertation (http://bama.ua.edu/~rshuttle/Diss/PDF/Diss.pdf) focuses
on depictions of Southern English in novels and films, so I've watched a
pile of films that contain supposedly "Southern" English. I'll work on a
summary of what I've found and post it shortly.
Rachel

Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: dialects in movies
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 6:59 PM -0500 2/21/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>>Don't forget "The Harder They Come" (Jamaican English, so basilectal the
>>first third of the movie has subtitles)
>
>
> ditto "Cool Running", the movie about the Jamaican bobsled team

--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
University of Alabama Libraries
Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Feb 22 15:42:10 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:42:10 -0800
Subject: Fox "kits"?
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.074210.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Fox CUBS" ?  Never heard that.  I've known 'kit' all my life.  Is there an isogloss somewhere?
Fritz

>>> wilson.gray at RCN.COM 02/20/05 01:57PM >>>
In a newspaper article about the taming of foxes, the author referred
to what I know as fox "cubs" as fox "kits." Fox "kits"?! Why not fox
"pups"? There's a species of vulpine known as a "kit fox." Perhaps the
writer had that in mind.

-Wilson


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 15:45:40 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:45:40 -0500
Subject: dialects in movies
In-Reply-To: <421B4BA7.9040900@bama.ua.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.104540.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Please do, Rachel--I remember your very interesting talk at SECOL (or was
it LAVIS?)!

At 10:11 AM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>And don't forget Rockers for Jamaican dialects. Shows interesting
>dialect variation on the island. I use it in my intro to linguistics.
>Has atrocious subtitles, but those provide for great discussion
>regarding what kinds of decisions are made in depicting/translating the
>film's dialogue for the audience.
>
>My dissertation (http://bama.ua.edu/~rshuttle/Diss/PDF/Diss.pdf) focuses
>on depictions of Southern English in novels and films, so I've watched a
>pile of films that contain supposedly "Southern" English. I'll work on a
>summary of what I've found and post it shortly.
>Rachel
>
>Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>>Subject:      Re: dialects in movies
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>At 6:59 PM -0500 2/21/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>
>>>Don't forget "The Harder They Come" (Jamaican English, so basilectal the
>>>first third of the movie has subtitles)
>>
>>
>>ditto "Cool Running", the movie about the Jamaican bobsled team
>
>--
>~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
>
>Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
>CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
>University of Alabama Libraries
>Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
>Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
>rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu


From MajorsT at MSX.UMSL.EDU  Tue Feb 22 16:04:51 2005
From: MajorsT at MSX.UMSL.EDU (Majors, Tivoli)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:04:51 -0600
Subject: Dialects in the movies
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.100451.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Matt Damon's and Ben Affleck's Boston accent in Good Will Hunting is authentic. I think they are both from Boston -- I see Ben Affleck on TV coverage of many Red Sox games. Robin Williams' accent is not great in that film. I think his character was supposed to be from South Boston.

Tivoli


From MajorsT at MSX.UMSL.EDU  Tue Feb 22 16:13:19 2005
From: MajorsT at MSX.UMSL.EDU (Majors, Tivoli)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:13:19 -0600
Subject: y'all redux
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.101319.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm from Dallas so I thought I'd weigh in on the whole y'all thing. We used to argue about this in grad school at UT all the time. Generally, it was yankees who would say they heard y'all used in the singular. Us Texans would vehemently deny the possibiility. What I think may be going on is that when we southerners use y'all, it always has a plural intention, but may not seem to to outsiders. So if someone were to say to me "Did y'all enjoy that movie?" I would understand that to be addressed to me, anyone who saw the movie with me, and even anyone loosely affiliated with me. My assumption would not be that they meant me myself alone. In fact, I'd say that meaning is not allowable in my dialect. I can't speak for others, of course, but we Texans were generally in agreement on this point. None of us was from West Texas, but Ft. Worth is just a stone's throw from Dallas, so I'm still a little dubious.


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Feb 22 16:35:13 2005
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:35:13 -0500
Subject: Dialects in the movies
In-Reply-To: <2FC84732E041AB4FA4718514408A93130959FE@stl-mail4.stl.umsl.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.113513.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In John Sayles' "The Return of the Secaucus Seven," a character
whose name I've forgotten (the actress who plays her has dark
brown hair and has appeared in other Sayles films) does a wicked
imitation of what I think is supposed to be a Maine accent.  It
sounds very much like the dialect I used to hear as a kid in
northeastern Massachusetts.

Joanne Despres
Merriam-Webster


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Feb 22 16:37:20 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:37:20 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.083720.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/21/05 03:56PM >>>

And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or Trojan?! (I never saw the
movie, thankfully!)

How would anyone know? --What does (did) a Trojan sound like?


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Tue Feb 22 16:50:02 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:50:02 -0600
Subject: Dialects in the movies
In-Reply-To: <2FC84732E041AB4FA4718514408A93130959FE@stl-mail4.stl.umsl.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.105002.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Matt Damon's and Ben Affleck's Boston accent in Good Will Hunting is
>authentic. I think they are both from Boston -- I see Ben Affleck on
>TV coverage of many Red Sox games. Robin Williams' accent is not
>great in that film. I think his character was supposed to be from
>South Boston.
>
>Tivoli

A cousin of mine from the Boston area reported hearing Damon and
Affleck speaking Southie on SNL--and it took her a little while to
realize why this should be funny.

I am going to move this ever so slightly over to dialect on TV. There
was a short-run TV series called Cupid. I watched one episode--it was
filmed on the University of Chicago campus and the male love interest
of the week was a linguistics professor! (Of course, the show put
things where they ain't--a faculty dining room (no such beast) in the
Divinity School common room.) The female love interest of the week
was a waitress at the faculty dining room who sat in on one of his
lectures (for those of you who know the campus--in the large lecture
hall on the first floor of the Social Sciences building, rarely used
by linguists) and they ended up in a Higgins-Doolittle relationship.
Mind you, he never used the Language Labs! (of which I happen to be
the site manager). At some point, she accused him of trying to
reshape her speech in his image (which was bizarre, because I think
she first approached him about eradicating her Spanish accent) and he
went into a spiel about how his low class (Southie) accent had drawn
a lot of ridicule when he went to Harvard and about how he had
improved his accent to improve his social standing (or something like
that). He did most of that speech in "Southie". Well, I am not a
speaker of this dialect, but I lived north of Boston for all my
secondary years and it was awful!

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 17:05:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:05:00 -0800
Subject: Dialects in the movies
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.090500.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Speaking of John Sayles, "Matewan," set in rural W. Va., seemed to have very authentic accents.

JL

"Joanne M. Despres" <jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Joanne M. Despres"
Subject: Re: Dialects in the movies
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In John Sayles' "The Return of the Secaucus Seven," a character
whose name I've forgotten (the actress who plays her has dark
brown hair and has appeared in other Sayles films) does a wicked
imitation of what I think is supposed to be a Maine accent. It
sounds very much like the dialect I used to hear as a kid in
northeastern Massachusetts.

Joanne Despres
Merriam-Webster


---------------------------------
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From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 17:06:34 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:06:34 -0500
Subject: Give me five, etc. (1925)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.120634.0500.>

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 02:42:32 -0800, Margaret Lee <mlee303 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>
>Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU> wrote:
>>Mr. Catlett, who first gained great popularity a few years ago in "Sally,"
>>when he played a comedy part along with Leon Errol, has invented a number
>>of widely used and expressive phrases Among them are "So's your old man,"
>>and "Press the flesh," "Give me five," and "Mitt me," the last three all
>>invitations to shake hands.
>
>Was Walter Catlett black? I thought "give me five" (and probably "press the
>flesh") was a black-invented phrase.

No, Catlett was definitely white.  You might remember him as a character
actor in his later film career-- he played various comedic roles in the
'30s and '40s, such as Constable Slocum in _Bringing Up Baby_ and the
stage manager in _Yankee Doodle Dandy_.  Here's a photo:

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/j/Walter%20Catlett.jpg

Catlett did acknowledge in the article that he had taken many of his slang
terms from "the American Negro", so the Crimson reporter's claim that he
had "invented" these expressions is no doubt overstated.  The only one
that seems like it could have actually been coined (rather than
popularized) by Catlett is "So's your old man".


--Ben Zimmer


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 17:09:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:09:00 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.090900.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Doesn't matter - Achilles was from Phthia in Greece.

Brad sounded like a Californian, however.   For those familioar with "Zoolander," he did "Blue Steel" several times.

JL

FRITZ JUENGLING <juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING
Subject: Re: Dialects in film
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/21/05 03:56PM >>>

And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or Trojan?! (I never saw the
movie, thankfully!)

How would anyone know? --What does (did) a Trojan sound like?


---------------------------------
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From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Feb 22 17:09:51 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:09:51 -0800
Subject: Dialects in the movies
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.090951.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about these:
The Freshman  w/ Brando revisiting "duh Mob Boss" part.

Kidnapped  both the 1960 and 1995 versions.  The '60 version has James MacArthur (book 'em Danno) trying to pull off David Balfour's Scottish accent.  Silly.  The '95 version has Armand Assante (a New Yorker) doing a much better job as Alan Breck Stuart. Might be interesting to watch clips of both movies and compare them. (There is also a 1972-ish version with Michael Caine, but it's difficult to find and not very interesting)

Mary Tyler Moore (from the TV show)  trying to make us believe she's a Minneapolitan--rotten tomatoes!

Bob Crane on Hogan's Heroes: Hogan from Indiana?  No way.

My Fair Lady and the earlier Pygmalion with Leslie Howard (oh Ashley!).  Again, it might be interesting to compare the two.

What about the TV show that was out about 1970 with Bobby Sherman--Here Come the Brides? Does that speech bare any resemblance to present-day or early-PNW speech? Haven't seen that show in about 35 years.

Finally, there is a movie that is so bad that probably very few have seen it--Revolution with Al Pacino. He tries to play an American of Irish or Scottish descent, maybe he's even supposed to be from the Mother country--don't remember. Reviews have made much of his accent.  One reviewer even suggested that his accent was some sort of Proto North American.  Well, his mumbling sounds little better than Brando in the Godfather or the Freshman.  I don't think too many Italians helped shape Revolutionary American speech.  (Besides the fact that Pacino's accent is so hideous, the movie is beyond terrible. So, if you decide to watch it, you've been warned.) Donald Sutherland plays a British officer and sounds like he has a mouth full of rocks, so it's impossible to tell whether he can fake a Brit accent.

Gary Cooper ended up playing a Canadian in Lives of a Bengal Lancer.  Nifty little trick.
Fritz Juengling


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 17:24:17 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:24:17 -0800
Subject: Dialects in the movies
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.092417.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Much of what we've been saying here is insidiously subjective.  For example, I think Leo Gorcey sounded genuine, though his (apparently) natural accent was pretty uncommon by the 1960s - I believe.  Other New Yorkers claim that Gorcey sounded fake.  Huntz Hall is harder to comment on because, though he too came from a working-class background, his screen character required a more exaggerated delivery.  Phonologically, I think he was OK.

Have mentioned in another thread that my grandfather's accent was very similar to Archie Bunker's. Much younger New Yorkers, though, may feel that Archie was overdone.

The "worst" put-on accents may include those where the underlying "outsider" accent still comes through..

But you gotta be a dialectologist. And even then...

JL

Barbara Need <nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Barbara Need
Subject: Re: Dialects in the movies
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Matt Damon's and Ben Affleck's Boston accent in Good Will Hunting is
>authentic. I think they are both from Boston -- I see Ben Affleck on
>TV coverage of many Red Sox games. Robin Williams' accent is not
>great in that film. I think his character was supposed to be from
>South Boston.
>
>Tivoli

A cousin of mine from the Boston area reported hearing Damon and
Affleck speaking Southie on SNL--and it took her a little while to
realize why this should be funny.

I am going to move this ever so slightly over to dialect on TV. There
was a short-run TV series called Cupid. I watched one episode--it was
filmed on the University of Chicago campus and the male love interest
of the week was a linguistics professor! (Of course, the show put
things where they ain't--a faculty dining room (no such beast) in the
Divinity School common room.) The female love interest of the week
was a waitress at the faculty dining room who sat in on one of his
lectures (for those of you who know the campus--in the large lecture
hall on the first floor of the Social Sciences building, rarely used
by linguists) and they ended up in a Higgins-Doolittle relationship.
Mind you, he never used the Language Labs! (of which I happen to be
the site manager). At some point, she accused him of trying to
reshape her speech in his image (which was bizarre, because I think
she first approached him about eradicating her Spanish accent) and he
went into a spiel about how his low class (Southie) accent had drawn
a lot of ridicule when he went to Harvard and about how he had
improved his accent to improve his social standing (or something like
that). He did most of that speech in "Southie". Well, I am not a
speaker of this dialect, but I lived north of Boston for all my
secondary years and it was awful!

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 17:28:23 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:28:23 -0800
Subject: Dialects in the movies
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.092823.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To some extent this is all nitpicking. Bosley Crowther of The New York Times mocked "Paths of Glory," about  the French army in World War I,  because none of the actors used French accents !

I kid you not.

JL

FRITZ JUENGLING <juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING
Subject: Re: Dialects in the movies
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How about these:
The Freshman w/ Brando revisiting "duh Mob Boss" part.

Kidnapped both the 1960 and 1995 versions. The '60 version has James MacArthur (book 'em Danno) trying to pull off David Balfour's Scottish accent. Silly. The '95 version has Armand Assante (a New Yorker) doing a much better job as Alan Breck Stuart. Might be interesting to watch clips of both movies and compare them. (There is also a 1972-ish version with Michael Caine, but it's difficult to find and not very interesting)

Mary Tyler Moore (from the TV show) trying to make us believe she's a Minneapolitan--rotten tomatoes!

Bob Crane on Hogan's Heroes: Hogan from Indiana? No way.

My Fair Lady and the earlier Pygmalion with Leslie Howard (oh Ashley!). Again, it might be interesting to compare the two.

What about the TV show that was out about 1970 with Bobby Sherman--Here Come the Brides? Does that speech bare any resemblance to present-day or early-PNW speech? Haven't seen that show in about 35 years.

Finally, there is a movie that is so bad that probably very few have seen it--Revolution with Al Pacino. He tries to play an American of Irish or Scottish descent, maybe he's even supposed to be from the Mother country--don't remember. Reviews have made much of his accent. One reviewer even suggested that his accent was some sort of Proto North American. Well, his mumbling sounds little better than Brando in the Godfather or the Freshman. I don't think too many Italians helped shape Revolutionary American speech. (Besides the fact that Pacino's accent is so hideous, the movie is beyond terrible. So, if you decide to watch it, you've been warned.) Donald Sutherland plays a British officer and sounds like he has a mouth full of rocks, so it's impossible to tell whether he can fake a Brit accent.

Gary Cooper ended up playing a Canadian in Lives of a Bengal Lancer. Nifty little trick.
Fritz Juengling

__________________________________________________
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http://mail.yahoo.com


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb 22 17:46:08 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:46:08 -0500
Subject: Fox "kits"?
In-Reply-To: <E1D3cBS-0003n2-00@mx07.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.124608.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Probably not. I learned fox "cub" in St. Louis, where foxes are - or,
perhaps, were, since I'm thinking of the '50's - as much an urban
animal as raccoons, skunks, coyotes, etc. elsewhere. It could well be
that the only people who referred to baby foxes as "cubs" were the kids
in my particular neighborhood.

My buddy and I once tried to catch a fox that was in his backyard.
Fortunately for us, the fox got away, since we were using our bare
hands. The stupidity of youth is amazing, when you look back on it.
When we told the rest of the guys about it, they thought we meant "fox"
as in "very attractive young woman." Much comical confusion ensued.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 22, 2005, at 10:42 AM, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       FRITZ JUENGLING <juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US>
> Subject:      Re: Fox "kits"?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Fox CUBS" ?  Never heard that.  I've known 'kit' all my life.  Is
> there an isogloss somewhere?
> Fritz
>
>>>> wilson.gray at RCN.COM 02/20/05 01:57PM >>>
> In a newspaper article about the taming of foxes, the author referred
> to what I know as fox "cubs" as fox "kits." Fox "kits"?! Why not fox
> "pups"? There's a species of vulpine known as a "kit fox." Perhaps the
> writer had that in mind.
>
> -Wilson
>


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 18:12:11 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:12:11 -0500
Subject: Singular y'all?
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.131211.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From a blog I regularly read, by a native Torontonian
<http://www.yarnharlot.ca/blog/archives/2005/02/22/the_wool_house_presents_2.html>.
Note the first paragraph:

"Welcome back y'all. (Or is that "y'alls" I can never figure that
out. I was in a "Waffle House" in Tennessee once and the lady who poured
my coffee said "Y'all want cream in that?" which confused me, since I
was alone. Clearly, "Y'all" must be the singular, which perplexingly
must mean that "y'alls" is the plural...right? Maybe this is something
else Laurie can tell us, since she's an English professor.)"

--
Alice Faber
Haskins Labs


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb 22 18:22:49 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:22:49 -0500
Subject: Dialects in the movies
In-Reply-To: <E1D3dgR-0006ha-01@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.132249.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 22, 2005, at 11:50 AM, Barbara Need wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Barbara Need <nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Dialects in the movies
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> Matt Damon's and Ben Affleck's Boston accent in Good Will Hunting is
>> authentic. I think they are both from Boston -- I see Ben Affleck on
>> TV coverage of many Red Sox games. Robin Williams' accent is not
>> great in that film. I think his character was supposed to be from
>> South Boston.
>>
>> Tivoli
>
> A cousin of mine from the Boston area reported hearing Damon and
> Affleck speaking Southie on SNL--and it took her a little while to
> realize why this should be funny.

Needless to say, I'm only too familiar with that reaction. Your cousin
has my complete and utter sympathy, On the other hand, I must admit
that people speaking a not-from-around-here dialect do be sounding
right funny, if they can be understood at all. You just have to be
careful. A friend of mine once asked a group of Jamaicans what language
they were speaking and was caught completely off-guard by the answer:
"English." She was expecting to hear them answer "Yoruba" or "Twi" or
some such.

-Wilson Gray

>
> I am going to move this ever so slightly over to dialect on TV. There
> was a short-run TV series called Cupid. I watched one episode--it was
> filmed on the University of Chicago campus and the male love interest
> of the week was a linguistics professor! (Of course, the show put
> things where they ain't--a faculty dining room (no such beast) in the
> Divinity School common room.) The female love interest of the week
> was a waitress at the faculty dining room who sat in on one of his
> lectures (for those of you who know the campus--in the large lecture
> hall on the first floor of the Social Sciences building, rarely used
> by linguists) and they ended up in a Higgins-Doolittle relationship.
> Mind you, he never used the Language Labs! (of which I happen to be
> the site manager). At some point, she accused him of trying to
> reshape her speech in his image (which was bizarre, because I think
> she first approached him about eradicating her Spanish accent) and he
> went into a spiel about how his low class (Southie) accent had drawn
> a lot of ridicule when he went to Harvard and about how he had
> improved his accent to improve his social standing (or something like
> that). He did most of that speech in "Southie". Well, I am not a
> speaker of this dialect, but I lived north of Boston for all my
> secondary years and it was awful!
>
> Barbara Need
> UChicago--Linguistics
>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 18:36:39 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:36:39 -0500
Subject: hot diggedy dog (1921), peanuts and buggy ride (1922)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.133639.0500.>

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 02:29:23 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer
<bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU> wrote:

>http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=430182
>The Harvard Crimson
>Published on Friday, December 18, 1925
[...]
>"For example 'hot dog' or 'hot diggedy dog' the latter one of my own
>expressions, are exclamations of joy which express more than could be
>conveyed in half a dozen sentences." [Walter Catlett]

For the "hot dog" files?

* "hot diggity/diggety/diggedy dog" (HDAS 1923, OED2 1924)

-----
Atlanta Constitution, Nov 16, 1921, p. 8, col. 8
Bits of New York Life, by O.O. M'Intyre
As Walter Catlett chirps 'Hot-diggedy-dog!'
-----
Atlanta Constitution, Sep 12, 1922, p. 6, col. 4
Bits of Paris Life, by O.O. M'Intyre
And the Americans responded with "Hot--diggedy--dog" -- a phrase that has
been popularized here and amuses the Frenchmen.
-----
Iowa City Press Citizen, Oct 21, 1926, p. 8, col. 5
New York Day by Day, by O.O. McIntyre
[From N-archive -- Atlanta Constitution on Proquest only goes to 1925]
There are many claimants to the doubtful honor of introducing that
over-worked bit of slang "Thanks for the buggy ride." It really goes back
to our father's time but was revived on Broadway by Walter Catlett in
"Sally" when it opened at the New Amsterdam theater, in January, 1921.
His version was "Thanks for the peanuts and buggy ride" and it was thus
shortened. He was also the first to introduce "Don't be stupid!", which
about a year ago became "Don't be dull." And again he revived "Hot dog!"
-- his version being "Hot diggedy dog."
-----

OED2 has a different 1926 cite for "thanks for the buggy ride".  Here's a
1922 "peanuts and buggy ride" cite without an attribution to Catlett:

-----
Atlanta Constitution, Jan 25, 1922, p. 4, col. 5
Bits of New York Life, by O.O. M'Intyre
She was a little bored by it all, but tried to appear friendly, but when
she walked to her hotel with him and told him goodbye she could not
refrain from calling out: "Thanks for the peanuts and buggy ride."
-----

(I know Barry has looked through O.O. McIntyre's syndicated columns, but I
didn't see any of these in the archive.)


--Ben Zimmer


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Feb 22 19:13:43 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:13:43 -0800
Subject: "Y'all" redux
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.111343.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Really, I thought the EAST begins in Boise, Idaho, which is considerably further west than FT. Worth.
Fritz

>>> wilson.gray at RCN.COM 02/19/05 12:45PM >>>

In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth.
 whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
English.

-Wilson Gray


From jasonnorris at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 19:41:40 2005
From: jasonnorris at YAHOO.COM (Jason Norris)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:41:40 -0800
Subject: Singular y'all?
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.114140.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I grew up in the South. Y'all is definitely plural.

That's not to say you won't hear it used in a singular way, but perhaps that is due to a slight mental lapse rather than dialect variation.

In the example mentioned below, the tired server at Waffle House may have said, "Y'all" all day long. When she served the person sitting alone at the table, it could have simply been a slip. It has happened to me before -- just like that (not at Waffle House, though).

If y'all (or yall, as some spell it) is ever used consistently in a singular fashion, I've never heard it. Or it could be that's just how we talk in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

Roll Tide, Y'all.

Jason



Alice Faber <faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Alice Faber
Organization: Haskins Laboratories
Subject: Singular y'all?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From a blog I regularly read, by a native Torontonian
.
Note the first paragraph:

"Welcome back y'all. (Or is that "y'alls" I can never figure that
out. I was in a "Waffle House" in Tennessee once and the lady who poured
my coffee said "Y'all want cream in that?" which confused me, since I
was alone. Clearly, "Y'all" must be the singular, which perplexingly
must mean that "y'alls" is the plural...right? Maybe this is something
else Laurie can tell us, since she's an English professor.)"

--
Alice Faber
Haskins Labs


If we knew what we were doing,
it wouldn't be called research,
would it?

 -- Albert Einstein


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 19:51:14 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:51:14 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <cd957fe7d6314fc247d10b383f70e9f1@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.145114.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, zero possessive marking would make sense in Black English.  The
earlier example may or may not have been BE (I should have asked the writer).

At 09:25 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote:
>"Y'all house," with "y'all" interpreted as possessive would be standard
>in Black English, if there was a standard version of that dialect.
>
>-Wilson
>
>On Feb 21, 2005, at 12:22 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
>>Subject:      Re: "Y'all" redux
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>"y'all house" as possessive?  I've heard both "y'all's" and "y'allses"
>>as
>>possessive, but not "y'all."  Do you have "y'allses"?
>>
>>At 07:10 PM 2/19/2005, you wrote:
>>>As a white  South Louisianian, I have never heard "Y'all" as a
>>>singular
>>>pronoun, but the use of "y'all's" and "y'all" as a possessive pronoun
>>>is
>>>used.(I passed by y'all's/ y'all house yesterday, but y'all weren't
>>>home.)
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>>>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:45 PM
>>>Subject: "Y'all" redux
>>>
>>>
>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>header -----------------------
>>>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>>>>Subject:      "Y'all" redux
>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>-----
>>>-----
>>>>
>>>>In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers
>>>>could,
>>>>would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
>>>>posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
>>>>Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
>>>>agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
>>>>his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
>>>>use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that
>>>>"y'all"
>>>>*is* used as a singular.
>>>>
>>>>In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
>>>>that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
>>>>and Fort Worth.
>>>>
>>>>I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
>>>>farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
>>>>description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan
>>>>area
>>>>in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows
>>>>that
>>>>East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
>>>>English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
>>>>English.
>>>>
>>>>So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
>>>>depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
>>>>white.
>>>>
>>>>-Wilson Gray


From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Tue Feb 22 20:07:05 2005
From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:07:05 -0000
Subject: Fox "kits"?
In-Reply-To: <s21ae264.043@spartacus.salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.200705.0000.>

Fritz Juengling wrote

> "Fox CUBS" ?  Never heard that.  I've known 'kit' all my life.  Is
> there an isogloss somewhere?

There's definitely a boundary down the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, since here
in the UK I've never heard anything except "cub" ...

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <wordseditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 20:02:58 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:02:58 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <s21aee07.063@spartacus.salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.150258.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was joking, obviously!  (Or maybe not--I've gotta learn to use those
smiley/winky faces.)

At 11:37 AM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
> >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/21/05 03:56PM >>>
>
>And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or Trojan?! (I never saw the
>movie, thankfully!)
>
>How would anyone know? --What does (did) a Trojan sound like?


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 20:04:17 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:04:17 -0500
Subject: Dialects in the movies
In-Reply-To: <20050222170501.34992.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.150417.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, thanks for reminding us of that very fine movie.

At 12:05 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>Speaking of John Sayles, "Matewan," set in rural W. Va., seemed to have
>very authentic accents.
>
>JL
>
>"Joanne M. Despres" <jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Joanne M. Despres"
>Subject: Re: Dialects in the movies
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>In John Sayles' "The Return of the Secaucus Seven," a character
>whose name I've forgotten (the actress who plays her has dark
>brown hair and has appeared in other Sayles films) does a wicked
>imitation of what I think is supposed to be a Maine accent. It
>sounds very much like the dialect I used to hear as a kid in
>northeastern Massachusetts.
>
>Joanne Despres
>Merriam-Webster
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 19:55:39 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:55:39 -0500
Subject: Singular y'all?
In-Reply-To: <20050222194141.59799.qmail@web51005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.145539.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Once again, the South is a large and nebulous area.  But when you said
Tuscaloosa, I gotcha.    The same goes for the writer from Dallas, which is
probably close to "the fringe"? (I think Natalie Maynor used to make this
distinction between Mississippi and "the South.")


At 02:41 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>I grew up in the South. Y'all is definitely plural.
>
>That's not to say you won't hear it used in a singular way, but perhaps
>that is due to a slight mental lapse rather than dialect variation.
>
>In the example mentioned below, the tired server at Waffle House may have
>said, "Y'all" all day long. When she served the person sitting alone at
>the table, it could have simply been a slip. It has happened to me before
>-- just like that (not at Waffle House, though).
>
>If y'all (or yall, as some spell it) is ever used consistently in a
>singular fashion, I've never heard it. Or it could be that's just how we
>talk in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.
>
>Roll Tide, Y'all.
>
>Jason
>
>
>
>Alice Faber <faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Alice Faber
>Organization: Haskins Laboratories
>Subject: Singular y'all?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From a blog I regularly read, by a native Torontonian
>..
>Note the first paragraph:
>
>"Welcome back y'all. (Or is that "y'alls" I can never figure that
>out. I was in a "Waffle House" in Tennessee once and the lady who poured
>my coffee said "Y'all want cream in that?" which confused me, since I
>was alone. Clearly, "Y'all" must be the singular, which perplexingly
>must mean that "y'alls" is the plural...right? Maybe this is something
>else Laurie can tell us, since she's an English professor.)"
>
>--
>Alice Faber
>Haskins Labs
>
>
>If we knew what we were doing,
>it wouldn't be called research,
>would it?
>
>  -- Albert Einstein


From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU  Tue Feb 22 20:22:06 2005
From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:22:06 -0600
Subject: Singular y'all?
In-Reply-To: <200502221950.j1MJo91n027173@bama.ua.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.142206.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I agree with you, Jason (and BTW, hey, man, how's it going at APR? Long
time, no see.).

I think that in some professions, particularly those where groups of two
or more persons are commonly addressed, a Southerner (at least an
Alabamian) can inadvertently say "y'all" to one person; I had to
self-correct y'all to you more than once when working as a hostess in a
restaurant in Tuscaloosa. I also know that "y'all" CAN be said to one
person, but referring to more than one, at least around here (as in Ron
Butter's 2001 article in AmSp). Please note that I am not EVEN trying to
refute any of the singular "y'all" cases found in Texas or Oklahoma.
Bailey and Tillery have done work on this, right (1998, also in AmSp)?
I've also been told by a native Oklahoman (sorry, no more details than
that) that he has heard and used "y'all" as singular. I responded with,
"As in, 'I love y'all's shirt'?" He said, "Yep."

On the possessive form, I say "y'all's," but the one that took the cake
in my book was "your all's" from a resident of Florida, native of New
Jersey, who is a y'all user.

Rachel

Jason Norris wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jason Norris <jasonnorris at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Singular y'all?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I grew up in the South. Y'all is definitely plural.
>
> That's not to say you won't hear it used in a singular way, but perhaps that is due to a slight mental lapse rather than dialect variation.
>
> In the example mentioned below, the tired server at Waffle House may have said, "Y'all" all day long. When she served the person sitting alone at the table, it could have simply been a slip. It has happened to me before -- just like that (not at Waffle House, though).
>
> If y'all (or yall, as some spell it) is ever used consistently in a singular fashion, I've never heard it. Or it could be that's just how we talk in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.
>
> Roll Tide, Y'all.
>
> Jason
>
>
>
> Alice Faber <faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Alice Faber
> Organization: Haskins Laboratories
> Subject: Singular y'all?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>>From a blog I regularly read, by a native Torontonian
> .
> Note the first paragraph:
>
> "Welcome back y'all. (Or is that "y'alls" I can never figure that
> out. I was in a "Waffle House" in Tennessee once and the lady who poured
> my coffee said "Y'all want cream in that?" which confused me, since I
> was alone. Clearly, "Y'all" must be the singular, which perplexingly
> must mean that "y'alls" is the plural...right? Maybe this is something
> else Laurie can tell us, since she's an English professor.)"
>
> --
> Alice Faber
> Haskins Labs
>
>
> If we knew what we were doing,
> it wouldn't be called research,
> would it?
>
>  -- Albert Einstein

--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
University of Alabama Libraries
Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 20:25:21 2005
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:25:21 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050222150221.03369b68@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.122521.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Let's not forget Cary Elwes in Mel Brooks' "Robin
Hood, Men in Tights".  Elwes says he's the Robin Hood
with the "English " accent, distinguishing himself
from Kevin Costner in "Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves".


--- Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:

> I was joking, obviously!  (Or maybe not--I've gotta
> learn to use those
> smiley/winky faces.)
>
> At 11:37 AM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
> > >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/21/05 03:56PM >>>
> >
> >And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or
> Trojan?! (I never saw the
> >movie, thankfully!)
> >
> >How would anyone know? --What does (did) a Trojan
> sound like?
>


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Feb 22 20:28:51 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:28:51 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Call=20for=20papers:=20a=20?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?tidbit?=
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.152851.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/22/05 12:57:13 AM, niall113 at HOTMAIL.COM writes:


> Dear Mary, I am new to this language forum, but I'd like to suggest 
> cultural injustice of our tongue and one little known. The Phrase " oh, boy! " is 
> seemingly so innocent,but packs thousnads of years of bias and mysogeny behind 
> it. It actually comes from the practice of perfering a male child to the 
> lesser gender - so called: as in authoress,actress, et al. Do you know that the 
> Chinese have a saying," Girls are like maggots in your rice. They will cost 
> you money."? Isn't life/language bizarre!!  all the best,  Chamae
> 

Oh, girl!


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Feb 22 20:24:51 2005
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:24:51 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <20050222202521.57795.qmail@web50608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.152451.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And, while we're on the subject of Mel Brooks, let's not forget the
"concierge" with the Brooklyn accent in "The Producers," who
complains at some length about the crazy Kraut's "boids."

Joanne

On 22 Feb 2005, at 12:25, James Smith wrote:

> Let's not forget Cary Elwes in Mel Brooks' "Robin
> Hood, Men in Tights".  Elwes says he's the Robin Hood
> with the "English " accent, distinguishing himself
> from Kevin Costner in "Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves".
>
>
> --- Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
>
> > I was joking, obviously!  (Or maybe not--I've gotta
> > learn to use those
> > smiley/winky faces.)
> >
> > At 11:37 AM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
> > > >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/21/05 03:56PM >>>
> > >
> > >And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or
> > Trojan?! (I never saw the
> > >movie, thankfully!)
> > >
> > >How would anyone know? --What does (did) a Trojan
> > sound like?
> >
>
>
> =====
> James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
> South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
> jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
>                                |or slowly and cautiously.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 20:39:06 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:39:06 -0500
Subject: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.153906.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from a contributor to a cancer survivors and caretakers support group:

"well, in the mist of all of this with [name of spouse with cancer] I
had fell and hit my head..."

Whether this was a typo for "in the midst of" or a reanalysis isn't
entirely knowable.  But since the "all of this" in the context refers
to the murky complexity of misdiagnoses, denial of coverage, etc.
etc., I suspect the "mist" is in fact a reanalysis/eggcorn.  (This is
the same writer who previously contributed "biospy" for "biopsy".)

Larry


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 21:31:42 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:31:42 -0500
Subject: guff (1880)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.163142.0500.>

For "guff", HDAS has 'insolent or impertinent talk' from 1879 and 'empty
talk, nonsense' from 1884.  These cites seem to lean a bit more towards
nonsense than insolence.


http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=338562
Harvard Crimson, Oct 29, 1880
This is rot.
You cannot
Get the flam.
You said damn.
And I swear
I can't bear
Any more
Such a bore.
Darn the fuss!
Hear me cuss.
"Right you are,"
Comes over your cigar.
That's enough, -
No more guff.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=322969
Harvard Crimson, Dec 21, 1880
GUFF.
I MET an old and learned man,
And asked him "What is 'guff'?
I've looked the word-books through and through,
And only met rebuff."
"You simple youth, you artless boy,"
He thus to me rejoined,
"I know not what this word can mean,
It must be newly coined."
I met a staid professor man,
And prayed him "What is guff?"
Quoth he, "I know not, though I've heard
It mentioned, sure enough."
I met a callow Harvard lad
And him my question told;
He smiled a quizzing, knowing smile,
And forthwith answered bold, -
"If you should say professors mark
By any scheme that's fair,
Or swore that Sever Hall is filled
By aught but frozen air;
"If you should hint you understood
The Rules and Regulations,
Or thought that voluntary were
The present recitations;
"Or knew when your Forensics came,
Or, what is better still,
Declared you never were hard up,
Or owed a single bill, -
"Why then, my friend, to all these things,
Which are but silly stuff, -
I'd straightway bid you hold your tongue
And leave off giving GUFF."


--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Feb 22 21:51:03 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:51:03 -0500
Subject: Dominican "vitamins" & "hot diggety dog" (1906, again)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.165103.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greetings from Casa de Campo in the Dominican Republic. There are several restaurants at the resort here, but they serve Italian, Chinese, Mexican, and Japanese food...Dominicans seem pretty sure that they'll have the next pope.

DOMINICAN COFFEE--served here. It just means that it comes from here, not like Mexican coffee (with Kahlua).

DOMINICAN ROLL--Tuna, avocado, plantain, shrimp.

VITAMIN A--Rum.
VITAMIN B--Beer.
VITAMIN C--Coke (soft drink).


HOT DIGGETY DOG--I found "hot diggety (dog)" in Winsor McCay's "Dreams of the Rarebit Fiend" in the NY Evening Telegram, 20 September 1906. I had spent several weeks going through all of McCay the old-fashioned way. I mentioned that here at least twice. No one remembers? No one checks the archives?

Some old Harvard stuff that I'd posted, revisited:

YOU CAN ALWAYS TELL A HARVARD MAN, BUT YOU CAN'T TELL HIM MUCH--
5 March 1921
I remember I was told before entering college--by a graduate of Brown, I think it was--that no man could go to Harvard and stay there four years without becoming a snob. This man, like Arthur Train, cited the choice maxim, "You can always tell a Harvard man, but you can't tell him anything," as proof of his allegation. As a neophyte I was considerably impressed by this statement, but managed somehow to reserve my judgment and entered the Freshman class in 1916. In all this time I had heard nothing of the high intellectual standards which prevail at Harvard; the most I knew of the University was its supremacy in athletics (there had been a football victory about that time, I believe).


GENTLEMAN'S GRADE--
>From news on Friday, January 14, 1910
EXAMINATIONS AND INTELLECTUAL REFORM.
In a few days the feverish rush of work that always precedes the semi-annual examinations will commence; with many men it is already under way. The disturbance that examinations make in the routine of life of the majority of undergraduates is a measure of the scholastic apathy that intervenes; a quietness barely broken by hour examinations, tests, and theses. Interests athletic and social pursued to the exclusion of the purely intellectual are responsible for the unpopularity of examinations, and for the sentiment, often felt if not expressed, that "C is a gentleman's grade."


OH RINEHART!--
6 January 1914
The Graduate Student probably expected that the epithet which he applied to the CRIMSON would excite the ire of this "long-faced periodical." But if he will take "Oh, pueri!" to Mr. Copeland and "This is college life, this is" to someone who saw the Follies, we are sure that he will discover that we cried out, not against the "wholesome youthfulness" of the resurrected Rinehart episode, but rather in that very spirit of toleration and amusement that he has himself assumed.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Feb 22 21:55:48 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:55:48 -0600
Subject: hot diggedy dog (1921)...[note: 1913 attestation]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.155548.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry Popik sent a Dec. 25, 2003 ads-l message with a 1913 Fort Wayne Sentinel article on slang, which presents "hod dickety dog" as associated with Indianapolis. (parag. 2 of the article: "'Hod-Dickety-Dog' Is A New One That Comes from Indiana."). Barry's item is reprinted (+ glossary) in _Comments on Etymology_, March 2004, vol. 33, no. 6, pp. 6-9.

Gerald Cohen

> ----------
> From:         American Dialect Society on behalf of Benjamin Zimmer
> Reply To:     bgzimmer at rci.rutgers.edu
> Sent:         Tuesday, February 22, 2005 12:36 PM
> To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject:           hot diggedy dog (1921), peanuts and buggy ride (1922)
>
> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 02:29:23 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer
> <bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU> wrote:
>
        [snip]


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 22:01:31 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:01:31 -0500
Subject: mind-blow, n. (1968)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.170131.0500.>

mind-blow, n. (HDAS 1971; OED3 has it as a verb but not as a noun)

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=137331
1968 Harvard Crimson 1 Nov. He [sc. Alan Heimert] knows all the drug-age
neologisms and uses them with a purposeful heavyhandedness. A "mind blow"
that comes off his tongue awkwardly and belligerently, with quotations
marks around it, reminds him that he is not, after all, native to the
generation which minted the phrase.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=351331
1969 Harvard Crimson 17 Nov.  _Night_, the final play of the trilogy, is
in every way the third act of the evening. It is an answer to the chaotic
world depicted in the first two plays, a goodbye-to-all-that farewell to
the sixties. It is both devastating and exhilirating, and even bigger
mind-blow than _Morning_ or _Noon_.

(The latter article, "A Mindblow at the Loeb, A Farewell to the Sixties",
was written by Crimson film and theater critic Frank Rich!)


--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Feb 22 22:07:00 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:07:00 -0500
Subject: Ivy League (1920?)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.170700.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm sure Fred noticed this. The 1920 date seems way to early for this...It appears that only the articles are here, NOT the ads. So for hot dogs, grinders, jimmies, brownies, pizza, buffalo wings, we'll be a little off.


23 March 1920
Harvard Crimson
Harvard will now travel to Providence on Saturday to take on Brown for the Crimson's first Ivy League contest.

"We are looking at each game expecting them to be a good team," Corkery said.

"It's an Ivy League game, and it's great to beat B.C. and go in to this game with the momentum."


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 22:35:20 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:35:20 -0500
Subject: Ivy League (1920?)
In-Reply-To: <1352D2C8.51CAD912.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.173520.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> I'm sure Fred noticed this. The 1920 date seems way to early for
> this...

Must be a misdating.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 22:51:13 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:51:13 -0500
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.175113.0500.>

OED2 has "weenie" in the 'nerd' sense from 1963 and "wonk" from 1962.  I
believe Fred Shapiro has a 1954 cite for "wonk" from Time Magazine, though
I can't find it in the archive.


http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=489487
Harvard Crimson, October 18, 1955
Three articles billed by Holiday as "the most infuriating ever published"
probably will arouse little wrath when the magazine reaches Square
newsstands this morning.
Ostensibly an explanation of the "naturally superior" Ivy intellect for
people from west of the Alleghanies, the articles vary from a serious
appraisal of the Ivy League education to a less high-minded account of the
social life of Harvard "wonkies" and their Princeton and Yale
counterparts, "ayools" and "weenies."
Former CRIMSON editor John Sack '51, in a story titled "Ivy Social
Pastimes," sets down the tenets of "unwonkyism" and how he hopes he
attained it during his years in the College.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=499301
Harvard Crimson, October 06, 1956
At Yale, in fact, those slightly academically or socially unaccepted
students receive names such as "weenies" or "turkeys;" at Harvard they are
occasionally dubbed "wonks;" and even at Wellesley students are apt to
meet "Peter Pans."

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=157856
Harvard Crimson, August 08, 1957
"Ha! What a weenie," he sneered to the girl, giving a powerfully superior
smile in Vag's direction. ...
"Hmm, a weenie. Imagine that," Vag mused sadly as he drove down Mem Drive
toward Boston.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=118430
Harvard Crimson, September 27, 1957
Up at school it was always tacitly assumed that everyone should be getting
a liberal education, and those who were not doing so were either ignored,
or dubbed by some contemptuous term such as "wonk" or "weenie."


--Ben Zimmer


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 22:54:38 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:54:38 -0800
Subject: Singular y'all?
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.145438.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I too have heard pl. poss. "your-all's," but not more than a very few times. The speakers *seemed* to be Southerners.  Wish I could remember more.  (Goes for generally, too).

JL

Rachel Shuttlesworth <rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Rachel Shuttlesworth
Subject: Re: Singular y'all?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with you, Jason (and BTW, hey, man, how's it going at APR? Long
time, no see.).

I think that in some professions, particularly those where groups of two
or more persons are commonly addressed, a Southerner (at least an
Alabamian) can inadvertently say "y'all" to one person; I had to
self-correct y'all to you more than once when working as a hostess in a
restaurant in Tuscaloosa. I also know that "y'all" CAN be said to one
person, but referring to more than one, at least around here (as in Ron
Butter's 2001 article in AmSp). Please note that I am not EVEN trying to
refute any of the singular "y'all" cases found in Texas or Oklahoma.
Bailey and Tillery have done work on this, right (1998, also in AmSp)?
I've also been told by a native Oklahoman (sorry, no more details than
that) that he has heard and used "y'all" as singular. I responded with,
"As in, 'I love y'all's shirt'?" He said, "Yep."

On the possessive form, I say "y'all's," but the one that took the cake
in my book was "your all's" from a resident of Florida, native of New
Jersey, who is a y'all user.

Rachel

Jason Norris wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jason Norris
> Subject: Re: Singular y'all?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I grew up in the South. Y'all is definitely plural.
>
> That's not to say you won't hear it used in a singular way, but perhaps that is due to a slight mental lapse rather than dialect variation.
>
> In the example mentioned below, the tired server at Waffle House may have said, "Y'all" all day long. When she served the person sitting alone at the table, it could have simply been a slip. It has happened to me before -- just like that (not at Waffle House, though).
>
> If y'all (or yall, as some spell it) is ever used consistently in a singular fashion, I've never heard it. Or it could be that's just how we talk in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.
>
> Roll Tide, Y'all.
>
> Jason
>
>
>
> Alice Faber wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Alice Faber
> Organization: Haskins Laboratories
> Subject: Singular y'all?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>>From a blog I regularly read, by a native Torontonian
> .
> Note the first paragraph:
>
> "Welcome back y'all. (Or is that "y'alls" I can never figure that
> out. I was in a "Waffle House" in Tennessee once and the lady who poured
> my coffee said "Y'all want cream in that?" which confused me, since I
> was alone. Clearly, "Y'all" must be the singular, which perplexingly
> must mean that "y'alls" is the plural...right? Maybe this is something
> else Laurie can tell us, since she's an English professor.)"
>
> --
> Alice Faber
> Haskins Labs
>
>
> If we knew what we were doing,
> it wouldn't be called research,
> would it?
>
> -- Albert Einstein

--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
University of Alabama Libraries
Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
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From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 22:56:33 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:56:33 -0500
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
In-Reply-To: <200502222251.j1MMpIMn007468@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.175633.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> OED2 has "weenie" in the 'nerd' sense from 1963 and "wonk" from 1962.  I
> believe Fred Shapiro has a 1954 cite for "wonk" from Time Magazine, though
> I can't find it in the archive.

My longstanding theory that the terms "preppie," "jock," and "wonk" all
had their origins in a traditional tripartite division of Harvard students
seems to be holding up pretty well, although the earliest Harvard usage of
"wonk" is not quite as old as the oldest known citation.  Incidentally, I
saw somewhere that subscribers to Time get access to a historical archive
of that magazine...

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Feb 22 23:02:16 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:02:16 -0800
Subject: Call for papers: a tidbit
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.150216.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Don't you mean "Oh child!"?

>>> RonButters at AOL.COM 02/22/05 12:28PM >>>
In a message dated 2/22/05 12:57:13 AM, niall113 at HOTMAIL.COM writes:


> Dear Mary, I am new to this language forum, but I'd like to suggest
> cultural injustice of our tongue and one little known. The Phrase " oh, boy! " is
> seemingly so innocent,but packs thousnads of years of bias and mysogeny behind
> it. It actually comes from the practice of perfering a male child to the
> lesser gender - so called: as in authoress,actress, et al. Do you know that the
> Chinese have a saying," Girls are like maggots in your rice. They will cost
> you money."? Isn't life/language bizarre!!  all the best,  Chamae
>

Oh, girl!


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 23:06:21 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:06:21 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.150621.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Re: Mel Brooks, Al Pacino:  Both of these guys are native New Yorkers with genuine accents, but to me they sound somewhat different.  It's not so much that Brooks grew up in Brooklyn and Pacino in the South Bronx (the idea of a "Brooklyn" vs. a "Bronx" or other borough-rooted accent is vastly overcredited), but second- or third-generation Jewish and Italian New Yorkers do frequently sound different - though maybe not to tourists.

Naturally I'm talking about "core" subdialects here. In a city of 7,000,000+  in the midst of an even huger "Tri-State Area," there is plenty of room for variation.

JL



James Smith <jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: James Smith
Subject: Re: Dialects in film
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's not forget Cary Elwes in Mel Brooks' "Robin
Hood, Men in Tights". Elwes says he's the Robin Hood
with the "English " accent, distinguishing himself
from Kevin Costner in "Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves".


--- Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> I was joking, obviously! (Or maybe not--I've gotta
> learn to use those
> smiley/winky faces.)
>
> At 11:37 AM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
> > >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/21/05 03:56PM >>>
> >
> >And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or
> Trojan?! (I never saw the
> >movie, thankfully!)
> >
> >How would anyone know? --What does (did) a Trojan
> sound like?
>


=====
James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively
|or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 23:12:44 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:12:44 -0800
Subject: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.151244.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"In the mist of life we are in death."

          --<OnlyRice>, "I was just thinking about  guard..," (Usenet:rec.arts.marching.colorguard), Aug. 14, 1997.

And elsewhere, no doubt.

JL
Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

from a contributor to a cancer survivors and caretakers support group:

"well, in the mist of all of this with [name of spouse with cancer] I
had fell and hit my head..."

Whether this was a typo for "in the midst of" or a reanalysis isn't
entirely knowable. But since the "all of this" in the context refers
to the murky complexity of misdiagnoses, denial of coverage, etc.
etc., I suspect the "mist" is in fact a reanalysis/eggcorn. (This is
the same writer who previously contributed "biospy" for "biopsy".)

Larry




---------------------------------
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From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Feb 22 23:19:51 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:19:51 -0600
Subject: Barry's spotting of 1906 "Hot diggetty!" and "Hot dog!"
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.171951.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry's earlier message is very valuable for indicating that the original expression "Hot (diggety) dog" might have referred to to clothing rather than sausages.
But when I look over the 1906 item he reproduces, I find "Hot diggety" and "Hot dog" but not the two put together in "Hot diggetty dog." No doubt this is a quibble, and "Hot diggetty dog" can be inferred from the two interjections actually used. Still, unless I've overlooked something, it's not there. Which leaves 1913 as the earliest attestation thus far spotted for "hot diggetty dog" (with "hot" spelled "hod"). That 1913 item, as I mentioned in an ads-l message earlier today, was also first spotted by Barry.

  Below my signoff is an excerpt from his earlier message, with 1906 "Hot diggetty!" and "Hot dog!"

Gerald Cohen

[1906 cartoon, presented by Barry in an earlier ads-l message]:
PANEL ONE:  MOTHER TO BARRETT:  BARRETT!  I WANT YOU!  I WANT YOU TO TRY ON A NEW PAIR OF TROUSERS I'VE BOUGHT FOR YOU.  COME IN!   PANEL TWO:  MOTHER:  MERCY!  YOU'RE AS TALL AS PAPA.  WELL, THEY FIT ALL RIGHT AND YOU MUST WEAR THEM, YOU ARE TOO BIG TO WEAR SHORT PANTS.   PANEL THREE:  MOTHER:  NOW, GO TO SCHOOL, BARRETT. AND BE A LITTLE GENTLEMAN, FOR YOU ARE A YOUNG MAN AND NOT A BOY.  DO YOU UNDERSTAND?   PANEL FOUR:  [Pants and legs starts growing in the next five panels.  The other children at school are amazed--B. Popik]  BARRETT:  HOD DIGGETTY.  THEY'RE SWELL!  HOT DOG!  JUST THE THING!  EH.  THEY FEEL GREAT!  HOT DIGGETTY!  WHEE! [snip]

> ----------
> From:         American Dialect Society on behalf of Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Reply To:     American Dialect Society
> Sent:         Tuesday, February 22, 2005 3:51 PM
> To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject:           Dominican "vitamins" & "hot diggety dog" (1906, again)
>
> Greetings from Casa de Campo in the Dominican Republic.
        [snip]
> HOT DIGGETY DOG--I found "hot diggety (dog)" in Winsor McCay's "Dreams of the Rarebit Fiend" in the NY Evening Telegram, 20 September 1906. I had spent several weeks going through all of McCay the old-fashioned way. I mentioned that here at least twice. No one remembers? No one checks the archives?
>
[snip]


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 23:16:22 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:16:22 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <20050222230621.57558.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.181622.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Jewish vs. Italian immigrant accent was noted by Labov 40 years ago.

At 06:06 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>Re: Mel Brooks, Al Pacino:  Both of these guys are native New Yorkers with
>genuine accents, but to me they sound somewhat different.  It's not so
>much that Brooks grew up in Brooklyn and Pacino in the South Bronx (the
>idea of a "Brooklyn" vs. a "Bronx" or other borough-rooted accent is
>vastly overcredited), but second- or third-generation Jewish and Italian
>New Yorkers do frequently sound different - though maybe not to tourists.
>
>Naturally I'm talking about "core" subdialects here. In a city of
>7,000,000+  in the midst of an even huger "Tri-State Area," there is
>plenty of room for variation.
>
>JL
>
>
>
>James Smith <jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: James Smith
>Subject: Re: Dialects in film
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Let's not forget Cary Elwes in Mel Brooks' "Robin
>Hood, Men in Tights". Elwes says he's the Robin Hood
>with the "English " accent, distinguishing himself
>from Kevin Costner in "Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves".
>
>
>--- Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
> > I was joking, obviously! (Or maybe not--I've gotta
> > learn to use those
> > smiley/winky faces.)
> >
> > At 11:37 AM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
> > > >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/21/05 03:56PM >>>
> > >
> > >And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or
> > Trojan?! (I never saw the
> > >movie, thankfully!)
> > >
> > >How would anyone know? --What does (did) a Trojan
> > sound like?
> >
>
>
>=====
>James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything
>South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued
>jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively
>|or slowly and cautiously.
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 23:10:16 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:10:16 -0500
Subject: Singular y'all?
In-Reply-To: <20050222225438.13125.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.181016.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Me too--from South Midlanders--but rarely.  Just today a new custodian
(local Athens County woman, about 50) used "youse" twice in a conversation
with me.  I think she meant plural, but I've already forgotten the context.

At 05:54 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>I too have heard pl. poss. "your-all's," but not more than a very few
>times. The speakers *seemed* to be Southerners.  Wish I could remember
>more.  (Goes for generally, too).
>
>JL
>
>Rachel Shuttlesworth <rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Rachel Shuttlesworth
>Subject: Re: Singular y'all?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I agree with you, Jason (and BTW, hey, man, how's it going at APR? Long
>time, no see.).
>
>I think that in some professions, particularly those where groups of two
>or more persons are commonly addressed, a Southerner (at least an
>Alabamian) can inadvertently say "y'all" to one person; I had to
>self-correct y'all to you more than once when working as a hostess in a
>restaurant in Tuscaloosa. I also know that "y'all" CAN be said to one
>person, but referring to more than one, at least around here (as in Ron
>Butter's 2001 article in AmSp). Please note that I am not EVEN trying to
>refute any of the singular "y'all" cases found in Texas or Oklahoma.
>Bailey and Tillery have done work on this, right (1998, also in AmSp)?
>I've also been told by a native Oklahoman (sorry, no more details than
>that) that he has heard and used "y'all" as singular. I responded with,
>"As in, 'I love y'all's shirt'?" He said, "Yep."
>
>On the possessive form, I say "y'all's," but the one that took the cake
>in my book was "your all's" from a resident of Florida, native of New
>Jersey, who is a y'all user.
>
>Rachel
>
>Jason Norris wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Jason Norris
> > Subject: Re: Singular y'all?
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I grew up in the South. Y'all is definitely plural.
> >
> > That's not to say you won't hear it used in a singular way, but perhaps
> that is due to a slight mental lapse rather than dialect variation.
> >
> > In the example mentioned below, the tired server at Waffle House may
> have said, "Y'all" all day long. When she served the person sitting alone
> at the table, it could have simply been a slip. It has happened to me
> before -- just like that (not at Waffle House, though).
> >
> > If y'all (or yall, as some spell it) is ever used consistently in a
> singular fashion, I've never heard it. Or it could be that's just how we
> talk in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.
> >
> > Roll Tide, Y'all.
> >
> > Jason
> >
> >
> >
> > Alice Faber wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Alice Faber
> > Organization: Haskins Laboratories
> > Subject: Singular y'all?
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >>From a blog I regularly read, by a native Torontonian
> > .
> > Note the first paragraph:
> >
> > "Welcome back y'all. (Or is that "y'alls" I can never figure that
> > out. I was in a "Waffle House" in Tennessee once and the lady who poured
> > my coffee said "Y'all want cream in that?" which confused me, since I
> > was alone. Clearly, "Y'all" must be the singular, which perplexingly
> > must mean that "y'alls" is the plural...right? Maybe this is something
> > else Laurie can tell us, since she's an English professor.)"
> >
> > --
> > Alice Faber
> > Haskins Labs
> >
> >
> > If we knew what we were doing,
> > it wouldn't be called research,
> > would it?
> >
> > -- Albert Einstein
>
>--
>~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
>
>Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
>CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
>University of Alabama Libraries
>Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
>Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
>rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 23 00:12:27 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:12:27 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <E1D3g84-0000mf-00@mx05.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.191227.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jeez, Bev, I'm sorry. I didn't mean my post as a criticism of your
post. I was just adding some info. Since I'm retired, I use trash TV,
especially Jerry, Maury, and the Club Comic View show on BET, as my
informants. On those shows, you will almost never hear a possessive /s/
used by a black guest and its use is getting to be relatively rare
among Latins, especially in the phrase, "baby daddy," which BET even
pluralizes in print as "baby daddies," though you would expect "babies'
daddies."

-Wilson

On Feb 22, 2005, at 2:51 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Y'all" redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Yes, zero possessive marking would make sense in Black English.  The
> earlier example may or may not have been BE (I should have asked the
> writer).
>
> At 09:25 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote:
>> "Y'all house," with "y'all" interpreted as possessive would be
>> standard
>> in Black English, if there was a standard version of that dialect.
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>> On Feb 21, 2005, at 12:22 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
>>> Subject:      Re: "Y'all" redux
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> "y'all house" as possessive?  I've heard both "y'all's" and
>>> "y'allses"
>>> as
>>> possessive, but not "y'all."  Do you have "y'allses"?
>>>
>>> At 07:10 PM 2/19/2005, you wrote:
>>>> As a white  South Louisianian, I have never heard "Y'all" as a
>>>> singular
>>>> pronoun, but the use of "y'all's" and "y'all" as a possessive
>>>> pronoun
>>>> is
>>>> used.(I passed by y'all's/ y'all house yesterday, but y'all weren't
>>>> home.)
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>>>> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:45 PM
>>>> Subject: "Y'all" redux
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>> header -----------------------
>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>>>>> Subject:      "Y'all" redux
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --
>>>>> -----
>>>> -----
>>>>>
>>>>> In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers
>>>>> could,
>>>>> would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
>>>>> posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
>>>>> Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
>>>>> agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal,
>>>>> in
>>>>> his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of
>>>>> the
>>>>> use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that
>>>>> "y'all"
>>>>> *is* used as a singular.
>>>>>
>>>>> In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I
>>>>> suggested
>>>>> that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East
>>>>> Texas
>>>>> and Fort Worth.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never
>>>>> been
>>>>> farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
>>>>> description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan
>>>>> area
>>>>> in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows
>>>>> that
>>>>> East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
>>>>> English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
>>>>> English.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that
>>>>> it
>>>>> depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
>>>>> white.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Wilson Gray
>


From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM  Wed Feb 23 00:27:25 2005
From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:27:25 -0500
Subject: dialects in film
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.192725.0500.ABARAGONA@SPRYNET.COM>

I had a similar experience with "Sophie's Choice" as Carrie Lowery had with
"Braveheart."  I thought Streep's accent was great . . . until a few days
after I first saw the movie when I met three Poles who had seen it and
thought her accent was terrible!  She sounded Russian to them, which, you
can imagine, they didn't appreciate at all.  Perhaps Sally was hearing her
Polish guide with American ears.

Alan B.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sally O. Donlon" <sod at LOUISIANA.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 1:20 PM
Subject: dialects in film


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Sally O. Donlon" <sod at LOUISIANA.EDU>
> Subject:      dialects in film
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> Meryl Streep did a fabulous job of some regional Polish dialect in
> "Sophie's Choice."
>
> I didn't notice it so much at the time because I had no real frame of
> reference. However, several years later I found myself in a pitch black
> elevator shaft and descending I-don't-know-how-many-hundred-feet to
> view these incredible carved caverns in an old salt mine in Poland. The
> darkness was so deep I literally [used literally] could not see my hand
> in front of my face when I held it up to test the old colloquialism.
> Suddenly, Meryl Streep's "Sophie" rushed into my consciousness. I saw
> her as I could not see my hand. The trigger: the local tour guide, a
> young woman whose disembodied voice was exactly the same one I had
> heard years ago coming from Meryl Streep.
>
> The odd thing is that I hadn't noticed it earlier in the visit.
> Presumably because other sensory input had distracted me. But, in the
> deep darkness, the mental representation was triggered by the single
> sensory input of the tour guide's voice.
>
> sod


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 23 00:41:12 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:41:12 -0500
Subject: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
In-Reply-To: <E1D3jUH-0002st-00@mx20.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.194112.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 22, 2005, at 6:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "In the mist of life we are in death."
>
>           --<OnlyRice>, "I was just thinking about  guard..,"
> (Usenet:rec.arts.marching.colorguard), Aug. 14, 1997.
>
> And elsewhere, no doubt.
>
> JL

Re: "I was just thinking about guard..."

I'm sure that I'm missing your point, Jon, but this use of "guard"
reminds me of one of my own early overcorrections. Once we'd left Texas
and I discovered that [r] could occur somewhere other than
word-initially, I decided that the proper pronunciation of "God" must
be "Guard" and that "God" and "Guard" were the same word: "Guard." Of
course, once I'd learned to read well enough, I gave up that idea.

-Wilson

> Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Laurence Horn
> Subject: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> from a contributor to a cancer survivors and caretakers support group:
>
> "well, in the mist of all of this with [name of spouse with cancer] I
> had fell and hit my head..."
>
> Whether this was a typo for "in the midst of" or a reanalysis isn't
> entirely knowable. But since the "all of this" in the context refers
> to the murky complexity of misdiagnoses, denial of coverage, etc.
> etc., I suspect the "mist" is in fact a reanalysis/eggcorn. (This is
> the same writer who previously contributed "biospy" for "biopsy".)
>
> Larry
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Feb 23 00:45:36 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:45:36 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <20050222230621.57558.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.164536.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 22, 2005, at 3:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ...second- or third-generation Jewish and Italian New Yorkers do
> frequently sound different - though maybe not to tourists.

they certainly don't sound the same to *me*, but it seems to be a
belief of the people who make movies and tv shows that american jews
and italian americans (and the occasional greek american) are
interchangeable.  it's really annoying.

arnold


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Feb 23 01:10:08 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:10:08 -0800
Subject: illegitament
In-Reply-To: <a06020400be404087a603@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.171008.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 21, 2005, at 5:52 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> A linguistic explanation is available. See David Stamp's "Why some
> people live in the Uninted States." Must be in OSU Working Papers
> somewhere.

Stampe.  Stampe.  Stampe.

not in OSU WPL, i think, but i'm asking david.

arnold


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 23 02:15:51 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:15:51 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Yalie"
In-Reply-To: <E1D3Z6m-0003xr-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.211551.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not only did Frank Merriwell appear in books, but he also had his own
radio program.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 22, 2005, at 7:25 AM, Fred Shapiro wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Antedating of "Yalie"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Yalie (OED 1969)
>
> 1941 _Harvard Crimson_ 22 Nov. When we were much younger we had the
> enlightening experience of reading a book about a Yalie named Frank
> Merriwell.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 02:18:31 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:18:31 -0800
Subject: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.181831.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED does a less than satisfactory job with "hello" and variants used as simple greetings rather than calls to people at a distance - or interjections of surprise.  Part of the reason is no doubt the ambiguity of  early exx.

Many of you will be familiar with the widespread canard that "hello" was invented by Thomas Edison specifically for use on the newfangled telephone.

Here is an early example of "hollo!" that looks like a simple greeting.  (Naturally, not all doubt can be removed.)

1841 Leman Rede Sixteen-String Jack (London: G. H. Davidson, n.d.) 36 [characters nearly face to face] "Hollo, old boy!  I'm glad to see you back again!"

"Hi !" has followed an identical course. OED's 1862 may be misplaced, however. And what's the word "car" doing in 1885?  It doesn't seem to be a railway car.

By the time we get to F. Scott Fitzgerald in 1920, the cite for "Hi !" shows unmistakably  the current usage.

OED doesn't include the universal Southern U.S. "hey!" as an exact equivalent of "hi!"  Dating this accurately will also be difficult.  (I once thought only Gomer Pyle said it. Travel *is* broadening.)

JL


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Feb 23 02:23:31 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:23:31 -0800
Subject: Dialects in the movies
In-Reply-To: <p06020400be4111420ad7@[128.135.207.204]>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.182331.0800.>

Not quite the same subject, but I have an observation about the movie "A
Bridge Too Far," a 1970s 'cast of thousands' war movie about Operation
Market Garden, the 1944 battle in Holland. In general, cast members were
given characters that matched their native accents (e.g., Sean Connery plays
a Scot). The Germans speak German and the Dutch speak Dutch (with
subtitles). Some exceptions are Gene Hackman, who plays a Pole, and Liv
Ullman and Laurence Olivier who play Dutch characters. I'm not familiar
enough with Polish to judge Hackman's accent, but I saw the movie once on
Dutch TV with the English and German dialogue subtitled in Dutch. The Dutch
dialogue, including Olivier's lines, was not subtitled. But Ullman's lines
in Dutch were subtitled. I can only conclude that the pronunciation was so
bad that they figured the audience needed the help.

In another movie, Mel Gibson dubbed his own lines for the American version
of "Mad Max." He softened the Australian accent to make it more
understandable to the US audience. The sync is not particularly good and the
result looks like a bad kung fu movie--which one might argue gives the movie
a kind of Sergio Leone quality.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 02:31:31 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:31:31 -0800
Subject: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.183131.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Guard" means "colorguard," though your point is well taken.  Look soon for "Gard Bless Americker" bumper stickers.

The subject is "in the MIST of" as a possible eggcorn.   The posted ex. is the most profoundly poetic eggcorn I have ever seen.

Sniff.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 22, 2005, at 6:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "In the mist of life we are in death."
>
> --, "I was just thinking about guard..,"
> (Usenet:rec.arts.marching.colorguard), Aug. 14, 1997.
>
> And elsewhere, no doubt.
>
> JL

Re: "I was just thinking about guard..."

I'm sure that I'm missing your point, Jon, but this use of "guard"
reminds me of one of my own early overcorrections. Once we'd left Texas
and I discovered that [r] could occur somewhere other than
word-initially, I decided that the proper pronunciation of "God" must
be "Guard" and that "God" and "Guard" were the same word: "Guard." Of
course, once I'd learned to read well enough, I gave up that idea.

-Wilson

> Laurence Horn wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Laurence Horn
> Subject: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> from a contributor to a cancer survivors and caretakers support group:
>
> "well, in the mist of all of this with [name of spouse with cancer] I
> had fell and hit my head..."
>
> Whether this was a typo for "in the midst of" or a reanalysis isn't
> entirely knowable. But since the "all of this" in the context refers
> to the murky complexity of misdiagnoses, denial of coverage, etc.
> etc., I suspect the "mist" is in fact a reanalysis/eggcorn. (This is
> the same writer who previously contributed "biospy" for "biopsy".)
>
> Larry
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


---------------------------------
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 Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


From pds at VISI.COM  Tue Feb 22 20:40:51 2005
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:40:51 -0600
Subject: Dialects in the movies
In-Reply-To: <20050222164005.34B48610B@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.144051.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The actress would be Maggie Renzi.  Don't know where she grew up, but the
IMDB says she met Sayles at Williams in MA.  Her character lives in Boston
but summers in western MA where her character's husband, at least, is from.

At 2/22/2005 11:35 AM -0500, Joanne M. Despres wrote:
>In John Sayles' "The Return of the Secaucus Seven," a character
>whose name I've forgotten (the actress who plays her has dark
>brown hair and has appeared in other Sayles films) does a wicked
>imitation of what I think is supposed to be a Maine accent.  It
>sounds very much like the dialect I used to hear as a kid in
>northeastern Massachusetts.
>
>Joanne Despres
>Merriam-Webster


   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
           http://www.visi.com/~pds


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Feb 23 02:51:36 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:51:36 -0500
Subject: "Coca-Cola"/"Coke"  (in Tanzania) = something easy, a given,
 no problem
In-Reply-To: <A7704766F9EE3949B30D5BF6297999A21B86EC@UMR-CMAIL3.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.215136.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>When I was in Tanzania (TZ) I was speaking with my guide about all kinds
>of cultural points of interest, and this came up in conversation around a
>political race that was in progress at the time.  This particular
>candidate was a sure thing for winning the seat.  Everyone knew it and
>called it, "Coke."

It sure looks like "cake": e.g., "This is a cake assignment", "It's a piece
of cake", "It was no cakewalk". Offhand I don't know the etymological
connection (if any) between "cake" and "cakewalk" here, and I don't know
how "coke" is connected (if it is).

-- Doug Wilson


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 03:18:31 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:18:31 -0500
Subject: y'all redux
In-Reply-To: <2FC84732E041AB4FA4718514408A93130959FF@stl-mail4.stl.umsl.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.221831.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Maybe our problem here is not a grammatical one of singularity/plurality,
but a pragmatic one of mutual contextual knowlege and beliefs (a la, Bach
and Harnish).  Southerners (self proclaimed, on this list) deny singularity.
Non-Southerners (apparently, or by long disassociation with native dialect)
claim to hear singularity.  This posting suggests that we are dealing with
expectations (i. e., presuppositions) rather than grammaticality.  For
Southerners, the implicature is always plural.  "Northerners" do not share
the mutual contextual knowledge with "Southerners," therefore interpret the
context grammatically rather than pragmatically.

Jim Stalker

Majors, Tivoli writes:

> I'm from Dallas so I thought I'd weigh in on the whole y'all thing. We used to argue about this in grad school at UT all the time. Generally, it was yankees who would say they heard y'all used in the singular. Us Texans would vehemently deny the possibiility. What I think may be going on is that when we southerners use y'all, it always has a plural intention, but may not seem to to outsiders. So if someone were to say to me "Did y'all enjoy that movie?" I would understand that to be addressed to me, anyone who saw the movie with me, and even anyone loosely affiliated with me. My assumption would not be that they meant me myself alone. In fact, I'd say that meaning is not allowable in my dialect. I can't speak for others, of course, but we Texans were generally in agreement on this point. None of us was from West Texas, but Ft. Worth is just a stone's throw from Dallas, so I'm still a little dubious.
>



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Feb 23 04:34:58 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:34:58 -0500
Subject: Another eggcorn: "lip-sing"
In-Reply-To: <20050222231244.19824.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.233458.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just ran into "lip-sing" for "lip-synch" [verb]. Pretty good. Hundreds of
Web examples.

-- Doug Wilson


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 04:48:53 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:48:53 -0800
Subject: y'all redux
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.204853.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Then how explain the occasional Southerner who admits to occasional singularity?

Most people, one assumes, don't often monitor their own speech for absolute semantic precision.  Whatever the observable facts of "singularity," the *average* Southern speaker, I believe, is far more likely to admit the possibility of occasional singularity than are sophisticated Southerners with an interest in language.

Just another damyankee hypothesis.

JL


James C Stalker <stalker at MSU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: James C Stalker
Subject: Re: y'all redux
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe our problem here is not a grammatical one of singularity/plurality,
but a pragmatic one of mutual contextual knowlege and beliefs (a la, Bach
and Harnish). Southerners (self proclaimed, on this list) deny singularity.
Non-Southerners (apparently, or by long disassociation with native dialect)
claim to hear singularity. This posting suggests that we are dealing with
expectations (i. e., presuppositions) rather than grammaticality. For
Southerners, the implicature is always plural. "Northerners" do not share
the mutual contextual knowledge with "Southerners," therefore interpret the
context grammatically rather than pragmatically.

Jim Stalker

Majors, Tivoli writes:

> I'm from Dallas so I thought I'd weigh in on the whole y'all thing. We used to argue about this in grad school at UT all the time. Generally, it was yankees who would say they heard y'all used in the singular. Us Texans would vehemently deny the possibiility. What I think may be going on is that when we southerners use y'all, it always has a plural intention, but may not seem to to outsiders. So if someone were to say to me "Did y'all enjoy that movie?" I would understand that to be addressed to me, anyone who saw the movie with me, and even anyone loosely affiliated with me. My assumption would not be that they meant me myself alone. In fact, I'd say that meaning is not allowable in my dialect. I can't speak for others, of course, but we Texans were generally in agreement on this point. None of us was from West Texas, but Ft. Worth is just a stone's throw from Dallas, so I'm still a little dubious.
>



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 04:54:01 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:54:01 -0800
Subject: dialects in the movies
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.205401.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What do "real" Aussies  - sorry, *Ozzies* - think of Gibson's former Australian accent?  He lived in upstate New York till he was 11 or 12.

JL



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From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Feb 23 04:58:37 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:58:37 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Call=20for=20papers?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?:=20a=20tidbit?=
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.235837.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/22/05 6:02:50 PM, juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US
writes:


> Don't you mean "Oh child!"?
>

Or maybe "Oh girlfriend!"


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Feb 23 05:05:30 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:05:30 -0500
Subject: Tech (1882), Techie (1963)
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.000530.0500.>

As far as I know, the only long-standing campus newspaper other than the
Harvard Crimson that has digitized its archive is MIT's paper, "The Tech",
dating back to 1881: <http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/>.  The OCR for the
Tech is far worse than for the Crimson, and there's no search facility
beyond using Google (also, there seem to be significant gaps in what's
searchable, particularly in the '50s and '60s).  But at least the original
page images are provided.

The Tech is naturally a good place to find citations for "Tech".  One
sense of "Tech", meaning 'an MIT student', is not in the OED (though see
"Techie" below).  This sense can be found throughout the paper from its
very first year of publication, 1881-82 (page numbers carry over from
issue to issue in the volume):

-----
1882 _The Tech_ (MIT) 11 Jan. 57/2 Harvard's new daily, the Herald, comes
to hand, its first issue containing a notice of the "Techs at the Globe."
http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_001/TECH_V001_S0059_P009.pdf
http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_001/TECH_V001_S0060_P010.pdf
-----
1882 _The Tech_ (MIT) 22 Feb. 92/1 It is because they have heard that
close attention to small things makes the successful man, that the "Techs"
take such good care of their mustaches.
http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_001/TECH_V001_S0094_P008.pdf
-----
1882 _The Tech_ (MIT) 5 Apr. 128/1 One of the Techs has a goat which he
says is more aesthetic than Oscar Wilde, -- it's all butt.
http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_001/TECH_V001_S0131_P008.pdf
-----
1882 _The Tech_ (MIT) 3 May 157/1 We understand that the near approach of
the annuals has caused several Techs to have their beds taken out of their
rooms, as they have no further use for them.
http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_001/TECH_V001_S0160_P009.pdf
-----

A cite from the Crimson slightly predates these:

-----
1882 _Harvard Crimson_ 3 Jan., "Techs" at the Globe Theatre. About one
hundred members of the Institute of Technology visited the Globe Theatre
last night.
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=278928
-----

"Tech" as an abbreviation for "Institute of Technology" is dated by OED2
to 1906, but the Tech has it as early as Nov. 1882:

-----
1882 _The Tech_ (MIT) 8 Nov. 36/2 The Techs then kicked the ball off, but
the superior weight of the Yale team again carried the ball very near the
Tech's goal.
http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_002/TECH_V002_S0052_P010.pdf
-----

It's possible that's just a misplaced apostrophe ("Tech's goal" for
"Techs' goal").  But by 1884-85 "Tech" was being used attributively in the
Crimson, the Tech, and the New York Times:

-----
1884 _Harvard Crimson_ 27 Oct., After the ball was started in the middle
the Tech men made another rush towards our goal but were unable to hold
the ground thus gained.
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=334902
-----
1885 _The Tech_ (MIT) 4 Feb. 104/2 We shall now cease croaking about a
lack of college spirit, as it is evident that a large percentage of Tech
students are industriously training for the Glee Club.
http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_004/TECH_V004_S0171_P010.pdf
-----
1885 _New York Times_ 8 Nov. 2/5 This afternoon the football teams of the
Institute of Technology and Williams College played the most exciting and
interesting game that has been seen in Boston. In the first half Bigelow
was disqualified for striking a "Tech" man, and Wentworth was substituted
for him.
-----

Surprisingly, a search for "Techie" meaning 'MIT student' doesn't turn up
anything before the 1980s, though this is probably due to the gaps in
Google's search facility mentioned above.  The more reliable Crimson
archive antedates what OED2 has (1969 for 'student in a school of
technology', 1981 for 'MIT student'):

-----
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=499745
1963 _Harvard Crimson_ 1 Nov. This is the twenty-third year of the Schell
Regatta. It is conducted each year in honor of Erwin Schell, the M.I.T.
professor who instituted the sailing program for Techies.
-----

The Crimson also antedates "techie" in the sense of 'technician' (OED2 1970):

-----
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=209914
1969 _Harvard Crimson_ 7 Mar. The audience at a Harvard show is pretty
unaware of techies--the backstage and front office people who organize,
frame and run a production--except as names on the right hand side of a
program.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 23 05:30:04 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:30:04 -0500
Subject: Another eggcorn: "lip-sing"
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050222233321.02faa880@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.003004.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:34 PM -0500 2/22/05, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>I just ran into "lip-sing" for "lip-synch" [verb]. Pretty good. Hundreds of
>Web examples.
>
>-- Doug Wilson

Yes, I've been using that one for years, at least since a 1994 "Words
and Meaning" final exam, so it's been around that long.  I first came
across it on a religious web site, of all places, in the gerundive
form ("lip-singing").

Larry


From prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 05:01:43 2005
From: prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM (howard schrager)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:01:43 -0800
Subject: Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.210143.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I want to ask one more time if anyone knows specifics about the origins of the street rhymes: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork, that's the way to say New York, and Chicken in the Car and the Car Can't go, that's the way to say Chicago. My father learned them in the 20's on the streets of Philadelphia and/or New York.
Howard Schrager




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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 23 05:44:20 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:44:20 -0500
Subject: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
In-Reply-To: <E1D3m6y-00016y-00@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.004420.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, I thought that I remembered from somewhere or other the spellings
"holloa" and "halloa" and, sure enough, they're in the OED. And I'm
beginning to think that it was in the OED that I remember these
spellings from. Oh, well. I thought I had something, for a minute,
there.

-Wilson

On Feb 22, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> OED does a less than satisfactory job with "hello" and variants used
> as simple greetings rather than calls to people at a distance - or
> interjections of surprise.  Part of the reason is no doubt the
> ambiguity of  early exx.
>
> Many of you will be familiar with the widespread canard that "hello"
> was invented by Thomas Edison specifically for use on the newfangled
> telephone.
>
> Here is an early example of "hollo!" that looks like a simple
> greeting.  (Naturally, not all doubt can be removed.)
>
> 1841 Leman Rede Sixteen-String Jack (London: G. H. Davidson, n.d.) 36
> [characters nearly face to face] "Hollo, old boy!  I'm glad to see you
> back again!"
>
> "Hi !" has followed an identical course. OED's 1862 may be misplaced,
> however. And what's the word "car" doing in 1885?  It doesn't seem to
> be a railway car.
>
> By the time we get to F. Scott Fitzgerald in 1920, the cite for "Hi !"
> shows unmistakably  the current usage.
>
> OED doesn't include the universal Southern U.S. "hey!" as an exact
> equivalent of "hi!"  Dating this accurately will also be difficult.
> (I once thought only Gomer Pyle said it. Travel *is* broadening.)
>
> JL
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Feb 23 05:50:24 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:50:24 -0500
Subject: Another eggcorn: "lip-sing"
In-Reply-To: <p04320401be41c403a387@[130.132.245.215]>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.005024.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>I just ran into "lip-sing" for "lip-synch" [verb]. Pretty good. Hundreds of
>>Web examples.

>Yes, I've been using that one for years, at least since a 1994 "Words
>and Meaning" final exam, so it's been around that long.  I first came
>across it on a religious web site, of all places, in the gerundive
>form ("lip-singing").

Note that there are many Web examples of "lip-sung" and "lip-sang" ... but
also many examples of "lip-singed".

-- Doug Wilson


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Feb 23 05:57:31 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:57:31 -0500
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.005731.0500.>

>http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=489487
>Harvard Crimson, October 18, 1955
>Three articles billed by Holiday as "the most infuriating ever published"
>probably will arouse little wrath when the magazine reaches Square
>newsstands this morning.
>Ostensibly an explanation of the "naturally superior" Ivy intellect for
>people from west of the Alleghanies, the articles vary from a serious
>appraisal of the Ivy League education to a less high-minded account of the
>social life of Harvard "wonkies" and their Princeton and Yale
>counterparts, "ayools" and "weenies."

Arnold Zwicky notes in an email that "ayools" is probably a mis-scanning
of "tools", which he recalls being used at Princeton in 1958-62.

What's the earliest cite for "tool" meaning 'socially inept person' (to
use Connie Eble's definition in _Slang and Sociability_)?  Checking
_AmSp_, I find a mention of it all the way back in 1932:

-----
"More Stanford Expressions", John Ashton Shidler
American Speech, Vol. 7, No. 6 (Aug., 1932), pp. 436-7
Some very interesting words and phrases are used during fraternity
rushing. After the freshman have left the house and the day's rushing is
over the fraternity brothers meet to discuss the frosh and eliminate those
who are undesirable. ... A "tool" is a boy who is not desirable and one on
whom time is being wasted.
-----

--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Feb 23 06:18:04 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:18:04 -0500
Subject: rushee (1903)
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.011804.0500.>

* rushee 'student rushed by a fraternity or sorority' (OED2/MW11 1916)

1903 _Atlanta Constitution_ 5 Oct. 5/4 Several of the rushees were
undecided until the last moment, apparently wavering now toward this
fraternity and now toward that, and many were the excited discussions and
bets.


--Ben Zimmer


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Feb 23 06:20:57 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:20:57 -0500
Subject: Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork
In-Reply-To: <20050223050143.74352.qmail@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.012057.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I want to ask one more time if anyone knows specifics about the origins of
>the street rhymes: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork, that's the
>way to say New York, and Chicken in the Car and the Car Can't go, that's
>the way to say Chicago. My father learned them in the 20's on the streets
>of Philadelphia and/or New York.

I've seen several of these somewhere but I can't remember where. I surely
don't know anything about the origins.

The New York rhyme can be found from 1915 as a rebus (at N'archive). I
don't know whether that's early enough to be interesting.

-- Doug Wilson


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 23 06:42:04 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:42:04 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.014204.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Y'all" was so much fun that we should do another one, "gwine," that
should be less controversial. I'm no longer certain of how or when I
became familiar with this example of old-school Negro dialect. But I do
recall hearing it spoken in jest by a schoolmate in Texas around 1947.
Otherwise, I was familiar with "gwine" only from the movies, especially
George Pal's dumb-nigger animated cartoons and from comic books and
such written in Negro dialect. But, similarly to "y'all," as a
singular, I never heard it spoken in real life.

For years and years, I listened to all kinds of blues and rhythm &
blues, talked with colored folk from all over the South, and the
closest that I came to hearing a real "gwine" was "goina." Then, one
evening in 1979, I was listening to an interview with Sunnyland Slim,
an old-time blues pianist and a native of Mississsippi, on the local
NPR station, when I heard him say quite clearly, "They was gwine
broke!" My reaction was, "Damn! It's true! In fact, it's still a living
form!" Then I noticed that Memphis "She plays guitar like a man" Minnie
used "gwine." That was odd, because I'd been listening to her songs for
years without hearing any "gwine." But that mystery solved itself.
Sometimes, Minnie chose to use "gwine"; other times she chose to use
"gon(na)." I assume that she originally used "gwine," shifting over
time to "gon(na)," as "gwine" fell out of fashion. But that's just a
guess.

Sunnyland Slim and Memphis Minnie are both now deceased. Has "gwine"
finally died with them?

-Wilson Gray


From cchesnut2002 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 07:03:07 2005
From: cchesnut2002 at YAHOO.COM (Christopher Chesnut)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:03:07 -0800
Subject: Unsubscribe
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.230307.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have been enjoying reading these messages each day,
but my mailbox is needed for other 'listserv's.  For
the time being, please unsubscribe me.

~Chris Chesnut

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From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 23 12:11:54 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:11:54 -0500
Subject: Tech (1882), Techie (1963)
In-Reply-To: <61237.69.142.143.59.1109135130.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.071154.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> As far as I know, the only long-standing campus newspaper other than the
> Harvard Crimson that has digitized its archive is MIT's paper, "The Tech",
> dating back to 1881: <http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/>.

I used The Tech archives in 2003 to antedate the terms "hacker" and
"hack."  I repeat the posting below:


The word "hacker" in its well-known computing sense has a first citation
of 1971 (contributed by me) in the Historical Dictionary of American
Slang.  Here is an earlier citation, not precisely in a computing context
but obviously the same term:

1963 _The Tech_ (MIT student newspaper) 20 Nov. 1  Many telephone services
have been curtailed because of so-called hackers, according to Prof.
Carlton Tucker, administrator of the Institute phone system. ... The
hackers have accomplished such things as tying up all the tie-lines
between Harvard and MIT, or making long-distance calls by charging them to
a local radar installation.  One method involved connecting the PDP-1
computer to the phone system to search the lines until a dial tone,
indicating an outside line, was found. ... Because of the "hacking," the
majority of the MIT phones are "trapped."

***

Note that the last sentence above contains what is essentially a 20-year
antedating of sense 5.b. of hack, v.2 in the HDAS.  Also, this citation
makes it clear that the common theory that "hacker" originally was a
benign term and the malicious connotations of the word were a later
perversion is untrue.  The malicious connotations of the word were present
from its origins in MIT slang.


Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 23 12:13:52 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:13:52 -0500
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
In-Reply-To: <62511.69.142.143.59.1109138251.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.071352.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> Arnold Zwicky notes in an email that "ayools" is probably a mis-scanning
> of "tools", which he recalls being used at Princeton in 1958-62.
>
> What's the earliest cite for "tool" meaning 'socially inept person' (to
> use Connie Eble's definition in _Slang and Sociability_)?  Checking
> _AmSp_, I find a mention of it all the way back in 1932:

When I was a student at MIT in the 1970s, "tool" and "nerd" were the two
most common terms for a socially maladept student (a category encompassing
nearly all MIT students).  "Geek" and "grind" were not used very much
there.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 12:17:10 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:17:10 -0500
Subject: illegitament
In-Reply-To: <9284e76c0ffadcde046fb7402a0e967c@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.071710.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Of course you would ignore my well-known e-deletion rule!

dInIs



>On Feb 21, 2005, at 5:52 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>>A linguistic explanation is available. See David Stamp's "Why some
>>people live in the Uninted States." Must be in OSU Working Papers
>>somewhere.
>
>Stampe.  Stampe.  Stampe.
>
>not in OSU WPL, i think, but i'm asking david.
>
>arnold


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 12:26:40 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:26:40 -0500
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502230712110.30551-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.072640.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold's dating looks good to me. In the early 60's one of the kids
my brother hung around with was nicknamed "the tool" by his buddies.
It had the sense given here, and I was aware of it earlier. It was
obvious to us that it was derived from "tool" = "penis," and used
much in the same way that other penile synonyms were, to belittle or
discredit the character of one so designated. It appeared to be a
milder rebuke than many of the others (e.g., prick, dick), perhaps on
a  par with "dork."

dInIs



>On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>
>>  Arnold Zwicky notes in an email that "ayools" is probably a mis-scanning
>>  of "tools", which he recalls being used at Princeton in 1958-62.
>>
>>  What's the earliest cite for "tool" meaning 'socially inept person' (to
>>  use Connie Eble's definition in _Slang and Sociability_)?  Checking
>>  _AmSp_, I find a mention of it all the way back in 1932:
>
>When I was a student at MIT in the 1970s, "tool" and "nerd" were the two
>most common terms for a socially maladept student (a category encompassing
>nearly all MIT students).  "Geek" and "grind" were not used very much
>there.
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
>Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
>Yale Law School                             forthcoming
>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 13:04:57 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 05:04:57 -0800
Subject: "Gwine"
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.050457.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine to run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana with my banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: "Gwine"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Y'all" was so much fun that we should do another one, "gwine," that
should be less controversial. I'm no longer certain of how or when I
became familiar with this example of old-school Negro dialect. But I do
recall hearing it spoken in jest by a schoolmate in Texas around 1947.
Otherwise, I was familiar with "gwine" only from the movies, especially
George Pal's dumb-nigger animated cartoons and from comic books and
such written in Negro dialect. But, similarly to "y'all," as a
singular, I never heard it spoken in real life.

For years and years, I listened to all kinds of blues and rhythm &
blues, talked with colored folk from all over the South, and the
closest that I came to hearing a real "gwine" was "goina." Then, one
evening in 1979, I was listening to an interview with Sunnyland Slim,
an old-time blues pianist and a native of Mississsippi, on the local
NPR station, when I heard him say quite clearly, "They was gwine
broke!" My reaction was, "Damn! It's true! In fact, it's still a living
form!" Then I noticed that Memphis "She plays guitar like a man" Minnie
used "gwine." That was odd, because I'd been listening to her songs for
years without hearing any "gwine." But that mystery solved itself.
Sometimes, Minnie chose to use "gwine"; other times she chose to use
"gon(na)." I assume that she originally used "gwine," shifting over
time to "gon(na)," as "gwine" fell out of fashion. But that's just a
guess.

Sunnyland Slim and Memphis Minnie are both now deceased. Has "gwine"
finally died with them?

-Wilson Gray


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 13:28:09 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 05:28:09 -0800
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.052809.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED has "a dull tool" as far back as ca1700, though in a somewhat broader sense.

JL

"Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"

Subject: Re: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arnold's dating looks good to me. In the early 60's one of the kids
my brother hung around with was nicknamed "the tool" by his buddies.
It had the sense given here, and I was aware of it earlier. It was
obvious to us that it was derived from "tool" = "penis," and used
much in the same way that other penile synonyms were, to belittle or
discredit the character of one so designated. It appeared to be a
milder rebuke than many of the others (e.g., prick, dick), perhaps on
a par with "dork."

dInIs



>On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>
>> Arnold Zwicky notes in an email that "ayools" is probably a mis-scanning
>> of "tools", which he recalls being used at Princeton in 1958-62.
>>
>> What's the earliest cite for "tool" meaning 'socially inept person' (to
>> use Connie Eble's definition in _Slang and Sociability_)? Checking
>> _AmSp_, I find a mention of it all the way back in 1932:
>
>When I was a student at MIT in the 1970s, "tool" and "nerd" were the two
>most common terms for a socially maladept student (a category encompassing
>nearly all MIT students). "Geek" and "grind" were not used very much
>there.
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred R. Shapiro Editor
>Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
> Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press,
>Yale Law School forthcoming
>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 13:48:17 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:48:17 -0500
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
In-Reply-To: <20050223132809.6489.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.084817.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Doesn't this "dull tool" more directly derive from the other, much
older derisive sense of tool, meaning "something [therefore someone]
that can be easily manipulated"?

I don't mean to suggest that these tools did not contaminate one another.


                  tool=instrument
                     /\
                    /  \
                   /    \
                penis  easily manipulated person
                 /        \
                /          \
               /            \
           jerk<-influence->stupid person


dInIs

>OED has "a dull tool" as far back as ca1700, though in a somewhat
>broader sense.
>
>JL
>
>"Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>
>Subject: Re: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Arnold's dating looks good to me. In the early 60's one of the kids
>my brother hung around with was nicknamed "the tool" by his buddies.
>It had the sense given here, and I was aware of it earlier. It was
>obvious to us that it was derived from "tool" = "penis," and used
>much in the same way that other penile synonyms were, to belittle or
>discredit the character of one so designated. It appeared to be a
>milder rebuke than many of the others (e.g., prick, dick), perhaps on
>a par with "dork."
>
>dInIs
>
>
>
>>On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>
>>>  Arnold Zwicky notes in an email that "ayools" is probably a mis-scanning
>>>  of "tools", which he recalls being used at Princeton in 1958-62.
>>>
>>>  What's the earliest cite for "tool" meaning 'socially inept person' (to
>>>  use Connie Eble's definition in _Slang and Sociability_)? Checking
>>>  _AmSp_, I find a mention of it all the way back in 1932:
>>
>>When I was a student at MIT in the 1970s, "tool" and "nerd" were the two
>>most common terms for a socially maladept student (a category encompassing
>>nearly all MIT students). "Geek" and "grind" were not used very much
>>there.
>>
>>Fred Shapiro
>>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Fred R. Shapiro Editor
>>Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>>  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press,
>>Yale Law School forthcoming
>>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 23 15:22:42 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:22:42 -0500
Subject: Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork
In-Reply-To: <20050223050143.74352.qmail@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.102242.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

howard schrager wrote:
> I want to ask one more time if anyone knows specifics about the origins of the street rhymes: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork, that's the way to say New York, and Chicken in the Car and the Car Can't go, that's the way to say Chicago. My father learned them in the 20's on the streets of Philadelphia and/or New York.

I heard those from my father (both of them); he would have learned them
in NY, in the 20s. At that time, he might have still been living in the
Bronx, though he spent most of his childhood in Brooklyn (Bensonhurst).

--

Alice Faber


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 23 15:26:54 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:26:54 -0500
Subject: y'all redux
In-Reply-To: <20050223044853.26422.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.102654.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> Then how explain the occasional Southerner who admits to occasional singularity?
>
> Most people, one assumes, don't often monitor their own speech for absolute semantic precision.  Whatever the observable facts of "singularity," the *average* Southern speaker, I believe, is far more likely to admit the possibility of occasional singularity than are sophisticated Southerners with an interest in language.
>
> Just another damyankee hypothesis.
>

The comments on that blog entry I pointed to yesterday were mostly about
"y'all", singular or plural. I think those posters would count as
literate, self-aware non-linguists. While some commenters were as
insistent as any ADS-Ler that singular "y'all" is an unattested
monstrosity, there were other reasonable-sounding reports of unambiguous
singular "y'all".

(For those who didn't follow the link, the blog is
<http://www.yarnharlot.ca>, and the comments would have been to
yesterday's entry.

--

Alice Faber


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Wed Feb 23 15:36:27 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:36:27 -0600
Subject: One more movie question
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.093627.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This may sound odd, but can anyone think of examples of "bad" AAVE
dialect in recent films?  I'm trying to show my dialect students how the
media sometimes gets it wrong.  (I will show any good examples, too, of
course, but I thought we'd start with the bad ones as wer begin to study
AAVE.

Thanks!

Patti
--

Dr. Patti J. Kurtz

Assistant Professor, English

Director of the Writing Center

Minot State University

Minot, ND 58707



Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that.



Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims
that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program?



Foster: But we are RIGHT!



Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough.


From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU  Wed Feb 23 15:50:08 2005
From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:50:08 -0600
Subject: One more movie question
In-Reply-To: <200502231538.j1NFcI1m005453@bama.ua.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.095008.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bringing Down The House might be a good one to look at; I've used it
with success in intro classes. Queen Latifah uses African American
English and offers some imitations of stereotypical ideas of AAE. She
also switches to MUSE (maybe "honky-speak" is a better term for what she
does ;-}}). Steve Martin tries to speak AAE, once facetiously and once
in a more serious attempt to infiltrate an African American club. Also,
you may already know about this, but Lisa Green's chapter on African
American English in "Language in the USA: Themes for the Twenty-first
Century" (Eds. John Rickford and Edward Finegan) is an excellent (and
short) article on AAE, including info on AAE in films. The film she
claims doesn't get AAE right (mostly verb forms) is "Fresh" (1994),
which I've never seen.
Rachel

Patti J. Kurtz wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Patti J. Kurtz" <kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET>
> Subject:      One more movie question
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This may sound odd, but can anyone think of examples of "bad" AAVE
> dialect in recent films?  I'm trying to show my dialect students how the
> media sometimes gets it wrong.  (I will show any good examples, too, of
> course, but I thought we'd start with the bad ones as wer begin to study
> AAVE.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Patti
> --
>
> Dr. Patti J. Kurtz
>
> Assistant Professor, English
>
> Director of the Writing Center
>
> Minot State University
>
> Minot, ND 58707
>
>
>
> Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that.
>
>
>
> Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims
> that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program?
>
>
>
> Foster: But we are RIGHT!
>
>
>
> Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough.

--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
University of Alabama Libraries
Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 23 15:58:09 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:58:09 -0500
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
In-Reply-To: <a06020400be42388240cd@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.105809.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:48 AM -0500 2/23/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>Doesn't this "dull tool" more directly derive from the other, much
>older derisive sense of tool, meaning "something [therefore someone]
>that can be easily manipulated"?
>
>I don't mean to suggest that these tools did not contaminate one another.
>
>
>                  tool=instrument
>                     /\
>                    /  \
>                   /    \
>                penis  easily manipulated person
>                 /        \
>                /          \
>               /            \
>           jerk<-influence->stupid person
>
And the 'jerk' meaning doesn't ameliorate toward the pathetic.
There's a distinction between those "jerk"-type words (jerk, putz,
prick, asshole) that don't have such a meaning and the ones (schmuck,
bastard) that do:

the poor {bastard/schmuck}, what could he do?
     (cf. "the poor sap", "the poor shlemihl", etc., which don't have
the "obnoxious" use)
vs.
#the poor {jerk, asshole, putz, prick, tool}, what could he do?

larry


From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 16:06:56 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:06:56 -0500
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
In-Reply-To: <p0432040bbe42577044a1@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.110656.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

larry,

I'm not so sure about the *ing of "that poor jerk..." while I
generally agree with the others, although I am surprised at how the
frame "you poor X" considerably widens the acceptability for me.

dInIs



>At 8:48 AM -0500 2/23/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>Doesn't this "dull tool" more directly derive from the other, much
>>older derisive sense of tool, meaning "something [therefore someone]
>>that can be easily manipulated"?
>>
>>I don't mean to suggest that these tools did not contaminate one another.
>>
>>
>>                  tool=instrument
>>                     /\
>>                    /  \
>>                   /    \
>>                penis  easily manipulated person
>>                 /        \
>>                /          \
>>               /            \
>>           jerk<-influence->stupid person
>>
>And the 'jerk' meaning doesn't ameliorate toward the pathetic.
>There's a distinction between those "jerk"-type words (jerk, putz,
>prick, asshole) that don't have such a meaning and the ones (schmuck,
>bastard) that do:
>
>the poor {bastard/schmuck}, what could he do?
>     (cf. "the poor sap", "the poor shlemihl", etc., which don't have
>the "obnoxious" use)
>vs.
>#the poor {jerk, asshole, putz, prick, tool}, what could he do?
>
>larry


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Wed Feb 23 16:14:34 2005
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:14:34 +0000
Subject: Guff
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.161434.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20050223/21e4b006/attachment.html>

From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Feb 23 16:18:28 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:18:28 -0500
Subject: Guff
In-Reply-To: <421CABEA.7000407@abecedary.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.111828.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Feb 23, 2005 at 04:14:34PM +0000, Jonathon Green wrote:
>
> I sent this earlier; for reasons I don't understand it seems
> to have gone to Ben Zimmer only.

Ben specifically sends his messages with a reply-to header set
to his address only. Thus if you reply to an ADS-L message sent
by him, it will go to him and not the list, unless you add ADS-L
yourself or use your mail program's "group reply" function.

Jesse Sheidlower
ADS-L


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb 23 16:28:26 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:28:26 -0500
Subject: Wall of Shame
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.112826.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Too early." It's tough going through 70 messages a day on this computer in the Dominican Republic, folks.

HELLO--I found this in the 1830s and posted that here years ago. I'll wait until Early American Newspapers is finished for a better answer, but it's at least that.

WONK--I looked through the Harvard Lampoon about ten years ago. I believe that I'd found "wonk" (the reverse spelling of "know") in 1955 or 1956.

WALL OF SHAME--Did someone discusss "Walk of Shame"? By the ugly Columbus monument here in Santo Domingo there was a slum. To hide it, in 1992 for the 500th anniversary festivities of 1492, they built a wall that became known as the "Wall of Shame."

I'm stuck at a resort here. Nothing much new in horseback riding or swimming.


From remlingk at GVSU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 16:28:35 2005
From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:28:35 -0500
Subject: Dialects in films
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.112835.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here are a few more film suggestions. (My previous message got cut in
transit. )

Mickey Blue Eyes (good for discussions of accommodation and dialect
"passing"--Hugh Grant tries to pass as a member of a New York mob
family)

Selina (Chicano English, code-switching)

Barber Shop I (varieties of AAE, good for dispelling myths about
speakers of AAE)

Escanaba in Da Moonlight (Michigan's southwestern Upper Peninsula, bad
imitations--lack of consistency)

Smoke Signals (Northwest and Southwest varieties of Native American
English)

And an example from TV: This week's Extreem Home Makeover--How'd They Do
That (ABC, Monday) there was quite a lengthy discussion of "southern
accents", including  a "southern vocabulary" quiz by Jeff Foxworthy and
examples of accommodation and style-shifting by Ty, the host of the
show.

--Kate





--
Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English: Linguistics
Grand Valley State University
Allendale, MI 49401 USA
remlingk at gvsu.edu
tel: 616-331-3122
fax: 616-331-3430


From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU  Wed Feb 23 16:35:05 2005
From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:35:05 -0600
Subject: Dialects in films
In-Reply-To: <200502231628.j1NGSo1m029576@bama.ua.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.103505.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
> Smoke Signals (Northwest and Southwest varieties of Native American
> English)
>
Powwow Highway offers Native American examples as does the tv show
Northern Exposure.
Rachel
>
>
> --
> Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of English: Linguistics
> Grand Valley State University
> Allendale, MI 49401 USA
> remlingk at gvsu.edu
> tel: 616-331-3122
> fax: 616-331-3430

--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
University of Alabama Libraries
Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 16:44:28 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:44:28 -0800
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.084428.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Tool" = penis could have been involved early (sense goes back to ME).

OED's limited evidence suggets that "dull tool" was the original idiom and that "tool" alone is a later development.

JL

"Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"

Subject: Re: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Doesn't this "dull tool" more directly derive from the other, much
older derisive sense of tool, meaning "something [therefore someone]
that can be easily manipulated"?

I don't mean to suggest that these tools did not contaminate one another.


tool=instrument
/\
/ \
/ \
penis easily manipulated person
/ \
/ \
/ \
jerk<-influence->stupid person


dInIs

>OED has "a dull tool" as far back as ca1700, though in a somewhat
>broader sense.
>
>JL
>
>"Dennis R. Preston"
wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>
>Subject: Re: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Arnold's dating looks good to me. In the early 60's one of the kids
>my brother hung around with was nicknamed "the tool" by his buddies.
>It had the sense given here, and I was aware of it earlier. It was
>obvious to us that it was derived from "tool" = "penis," and used
>much in the same way that other penile synonyms were, to belittle or
>discredit the character of one so designated. It appeared to be a
>milder rebuke than many of the others (e.g., prick, dick), perhaps on
>a par with "dork."
>
>dInIs
>
>
>
>>On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>
>>> Arnold Zwicky notes in an email that "ayools" is probably a mis-scanning
>>> of "tools", which he recalls being used at Princeton in 1958-62.
>>>
>>> What's the earliest cite for "tool" meaning 'socially inept person' (to
>>> use Connie Eble's definition in _Slang and Sociability_)? Checking
>>> _AmSp_, I find a mention of it all the way back in 1932:
>>
>>When I was a student at MIT in the 1970s, "tool" and "nerd" were the two
>>most common terms for a socially maladept student (a category encompassing
>>nearly all MIT students). "Geek" and "grind" were not used very much
>>there.
>>
>>Fred Shapiro
>>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Fred R. Shapiro Editor
>>Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>> Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press,
>>Yale Law School forthcoming
>>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 16:58:31 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:58:31 -0800
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.085831.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

larry,

"The / you poor prick !" is discordant for me. So is "...asshole," though maybe less so.  These terms are so strong that they clash with the condescending sympathy of "poor."  "Jerk" and "putz" are quite acceptable here. "Poor tool" sounds possible.

JL


"Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"

Subject: Re: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

larry,

I'm not so sure about the *ing of "that poor jerk..." while I
generally agree with the others, although I am surprised at how the
frame "you poor X" considerably widens the acceptability for me.

dInIs



>At 8:48 AM -0500 2/23/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>Doesn't this "dull tool" more directly derive from the other, much
>>older derisive sense of tool, meaning "something [therefore someone]
>>that can be easily manipulated"?
>>
>>I don't mean to suggest that these tools did not contaminate one another.
>>
>>
>> tool=instrument
>> /\
>> / \
>> / \
>> penis easily manipulated person
>> / \
>> / \
>> / \
>> jerk<-influence->stupid person
>>
>And the 'jerk' meaning doesn't ameliorate toward the pathetic.
>There's a distinction between those "jerk"-type words (jerk, putz,
>prick, asshole) that don't have such a meaning and the ones (schmuck,
>bastard) that do:
>
>the poor {bastard/schmuck}, what could he do?
> (cf. "the poor sap", "the poor shlemihl", etc., which don't have
>the "obnoxious" use)
>vs.
>#the poor {jerk, asshole, putz, prick, tool}, what could he do?
>
>larry


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb 23 17:00:35 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:00:35 +0000
Subject: Larimar (stone from the Dominican Republic)
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.170035.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Larimar" is not in the OED. It's a stone apparently unique to the Dominican Republic. There are almost 8,000 Google hits for "Larimar" and "Dominican Republic." Larimar has blue and green colors.

Thank goodness that OED pays for these trips. (Just kidding.)

(GOOGLE)
Larimar Jewelry Factory, Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic - [ Traduzca esta página ]
The Larimar Factory is a producer of quality Larimar jewelry from the Caribbean
in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic.
www.larimarfactory.com/ - 9k - En caché - Páginas similares


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Feb 23 17:17:04 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:17:04 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <20050223130457.7091.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.121704.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine to
>run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana with my
>banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>
>JL
~~~~~~~~~
I suppose it says something about my (forbidden subject) politics that the
first thing that came to my mind was:
"Gwine-a lay down my sword & shield
Down by the riverside...."
A. Murie

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 17:24:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:24:00 -0800
Subject: "Gwine"
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.092400.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Actually, I'm gwine to Loozyanna *my Susannah for to see."

Sorry, music lovers.

JL

sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: sagehen
Subject: Re: "Gwine"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>"Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine to
>run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana with my
>banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>
>JL
~~~~~~~~~
I suppose it says something about my (forbidden subject) politics that the
first thing that came to my mind was:
"Gwine-a lay down my sword & shield
Down by the riverside...."
A. Murie

~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:>


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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 23 18:32:12 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:32:12 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <E1D3wCw-00014l-00@mx08.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.133212.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Absolutely. I'd completely forgotten about Stephen Foster's oeuvre. In
fact, I can recall that that's how I first learned the form, starting
in the first grade and ending in the sixth, now that you've reminded
me. Thank you, Jon. Indeed, we were even taught the song, "Jim Crow!" -
I've never known who wrote it - in the first grade.

Jump! Oh, jump!
Oh, jump, Jim Crow!
[...]
And around you go!
Slide! Slide!
Point your toe!
You're a funny little fellow
When you jump, Jim Crow!

There was no PC back in the day. On the other hand, though, "Jim Crow"
was such a popular brand of whiskey that it had a nickname: "Dirty
Bird."

-Wilson

On Feb 23, 2005, at 8:04 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine
> to run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana
> with my banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Y'all" was so much fun that we should do another one, "gwine," that
> should be less controversial. I'm no longer certain of how or when I
> became familiar with this example of old-school Negro dialect. But I do
> recall hearing it spoken in jest by a schoolmate in Texas around 1947.
> Otherwise, I was familiar with "gwine" only from the movies, especially
> George Pal's dumb-nigger animated cartoons and from comic books and
> such written in Negro dialect. But, similarly to "y'all," as a
> singular, I never heard it spoken in real life.
>
> For years and years, I listened to all kinds of blues and rhythm &
> blues, talked with colored folk from all over the South, and the
> closest that I came to hearing a real "gwine" was "goina." Then, one
> evening in 1979, I was listening to an interview with Sunnyland Slim,
> an old-time blues pianist and a native of Mississsippi, on the local
> NPR station, when I heard him say quite clearly, "They was gwine
> broke!" My reaction was, "Damn! It's true! In fact, it's still a living
> form!" Then I noticed that Memphis "She plays guitar like a man" Minnie
> used "gwine." That was odd, because I'd been listening to her songs for
> years without hearing any "gwine." But that mystery solved itself.
> Sometimes, Minnie chose to use "gwine"; other times she chose to use
> "gon(na)." I assume that she originally used "gwine," shifting over
> time to "gon(na)," as "gwine" fell out of fashion. But that's just a
> guess.
>
> Sunnyland Slim and Memphis Minnie are both now deceased. Has "gwine"
> finally died with them?
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>


From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 18:41:50 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:41:50 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <f03460c6f4680186cabc468cf4a157ce@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.134150.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson,

Up Louisville way we called "Old Crow" "Dirty Bird." I don't member
no "Jim Crow." Sure you ain't merged "Jim Beam" and "Old Crow"?

dInIs


>Absolutely. I'd completely forgotten about Stephen Foster's oeuvre. In
>fact, I can recall that that's how I first learned the form, starting
>in the first grade and ending in the sixth, now that you've reminded
>me. Thank you, Jon. Indeed, we were even taught the song, "Jim Crow!" -
>I've never known who wrote it - in the first grade.
>
>Jump! Oh, jump!
>Oh, jump, Jim Crow!
>[...]
>And around you go!
>Slide! Slide!
>Point your toe!
>You're a funny little fellow
>When you jump, Jim Crow!
>
>There was no PC back in the day. On the other hand, though, "Jim Crow"
>was such a popular brand of whiskey that it had a nickname: "Dirty
>Bird."
>
>-Wilson
>
>On Feb 23, 2005, at 8:04 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>>Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>"Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine
>>to run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana
>>with my banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>>
>>JL
>>
>>Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: Wilson Gray
>>Subject: "Gwine"
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>"Y'all" was so much fun that we should do another one, "gwine," that
>>should be less controversial. I'm no longer certain of how or when I
>>became familiar with this example of old-school Negro dialect. But I do
>>recall hearing it spoken in jest by a schoolmate in Texas around 1947.
>>Otherwise, I was familiar with "gwine" only from the movies, especially
>>George Pal's dumb-nigger animated cartoons and from comic books and
>>such written in Negro dialect. But, similarly to "y'all," as a
>>singular, I never heard it spoken in real life.
>>
>>For years and years, I listened to all kinds of blues and rhythm &
>>blues, talked with colored folk from all over the South, and the
>>closest that I came to hearing a real "gwine" was "goina." Then, one
>>evening in 1979, I was listening to an interview with Sunnyland Slim,
>>an old-time blues pianist and a native of Mississsippi, on the local
>>NPR station, when I heard him say quite clearly, "They was gwine
>>broke!" My reaction was, "Damn! It's true! In fact, it's still a living
>>form!" Then I noticed that Memphis "She plays guitar like a man" Minnie
>>used "gwine." That was odd, because I'd been listening to her songs for
>>years without hearing any "gwine." But that mystery solved itself.
>>Sometimes, Minnie chose to use "gwine"; other times she chose to use
>>"gon(na)." I assume that she originally used "gwine," shifting over
>>time to "gon(na)," as "gwine" fell out of fashion. But that's just a
>>guess.
>>
>>Sunnyland Slim and Memphis Minnie are both now deceased. Has "gwine"
>>finally died with them?
>>
>>-Wilson Gray
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Feb 23 18:59:17 2005
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:59:17 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.135917.0500.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

It wasn't Stephen Foster.

http://www.answers.com/topic/jump-jim-crow

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: "Gwine"


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Absolutely. I'd completely forgotten about Stephen Foster's oeuvre. In
> fact, I can recall that that's how I first learned the form, starting
> in the first grade and ending in the sixth, now that you've reminded
> me. Thank you, Jon. Indeed, we were even taught the song, "Jim Crow!" -
> I've never known who wrote it - in the first grade.
>
> Jump! Oh, jump!
> Oh, jump, Jim Crow!
> [...]
> And around you go!
> Slide! Slide!
> Point your toe!
> You're a funny little fellow
> When you jump, Jim Crow!
>
> There was no PC back in the day. On the other hand, though, "Jim Crow"
> was such a popular brand of whiskey that it had a nickname: "Dirty
> Bird."
>
> -Wilson
>
> On Feb 23, 2005, at 8:04 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>> "Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine
>> to run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana
>> with my banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>>
>> JL
>>
>> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>> Subject: "Gwine"
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>> "Y'all" was so much fun that we should do another one, "gwine," that
>> should be less controversial. I'm no longer certain of how or when I
>> became familiar with this example of old-school Negro dialect. But I do
>> recall hearing it spoken in jest by a schoolmate in Texas around 1947.
>> Otherwise, I was familiar with "gwine" only from the movies, especially
>> George Pal's dumb-nigger animated cartoons and from comic books and
>> such written in Negro dialect. But, similarly to "y'all," as a
>> singular, I never heard it spoken in real life.
>>
>> For years and years, I listened to all kinds of blues and rhythm &
>> blues, talked with colored folk from all over the South, and the
>> closest that I came to hearing a real "gwine" was "goina." Then, one
>> evening in 1979, I was listening to an interview with Sunnyland Slim,
>> an old-time blues pianist and a native of Mississsippi, on the local
>> NPR station, when I heard him say quite clearly, "They was gwine
>> broke!" My reaction was, "Damn! It's true! In fact, it's still a living
>> form!" Then I noticed that Memphis "She plays guitar like a man" Minnie
>> used "gwine." That was odd, because I'd been listening to her songs for
>> years without hearing any "gwine." But that mystery solved itself.
>> Sometimes, Minnie chose to use "gwine"; other times she chose to use
>> "gon(na)." I assume that she originally used "gwine," shifting over
>> time to "gon(na)," as "gwine" fell out of fashion. But that's just a
>> guess.
>>
>> Sunnyland Slim and Memphis Minnie are both now deceased. Has "gwine"
>> finally died with them?
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>>


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Feb 23 19:01:43 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:01:43 -0800
Subject: tool
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.110143.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from the Firesign Theatre's "The Further Adventures of Nick Danger",
on the LP How Can You Be In Two Places At Once When You're Not Anywhere
At All (1969):

Nancy: Oh Nick, you're such a tool!

(my reading of the scene is that 'stupid person', 'inept person', and
'person being taken advantage of, being used as a tool' are all evoked
by "tool".  various senses of "fool" might be in there, too.)

arnold


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Feb 23 19:11:21 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:11:21 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <20050222230621.57558.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.111121.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is straying a bit from the original thread, but in the current
Masterpiece Theatre series on PBS, "Island at War," the actor playing the
commander of the German military forces that have occupied a fictional
British Channel Island during World War II takes an interesting approach to
the foreign accent issue.  He manages speech that sounds generically
foreign, avoiding the stereotypical Nazi bully accent.  It's clearly
foreign, and in your "willing suspension of disbelief" mode you can accept
that it MIGHT be German--that is, until he mangles a couple of actual
German words.  He tells the local officials that "this island is now under
the control of the deutsch Wehrmacht" (instead of the deutsche Wehrmacht),
and he consistently calls his assistant, whose name is apparently supposed
to be Müller, something that sounds more like "moolah."  If he had only
consulted an actual speaker of German to get the few actual German words
right, his approach would be very credible.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 20:36:09 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:36:09 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <435e796d36e13a2290e3f82c7f8a630b@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.153609.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hey, no apology needed!  I was actually criticizing myself for not probing
the earlier writer's example.

At 07:12 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>Jeez, Bev, I'm sorry. I didn't mean my post as a criticism of your
>post. I was just adding some info. Since I'm retired, I use trash TV,
>especially Jerry, Maury, and the Club Comic View show on BET, as my
>informants. On those shows, you will almost never hear a possessive /s/
>used by a black guest and its use is getting to be relatively rare
>among Latins, especially in the phrase, "baby daddy," which BET even
>pluralizes in print as "baby daddies," though you would expect "babies'
>daddies."
>
>-Wilson
>
>On Feb 22, 2005, at 2:51 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
>>Subject:      Re: "Y'all" redux
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>Yes, zero possessive marking would make sense in Black English.  The
>>earlier example may or may not have been BE (I should have asked the
>>writer).
>>
>>At 09:25 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote:
>>>"Y'all house," with "y'all" interpreted as possessive would be
>>>standard
>>>in Black English, if there was a standard version of that dialect.
>>>
>>>-Wilson
>>>
>>>On Feb 21, 2005, at 12:22 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>>
>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>-----------------------
>>>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
>>>>Subject:      Re: "Y'all" redux
>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>--
>>>>--------
>>>>
>>>>"y'all house" as possessive?  I've heard both "y'all's" and
>>>>"y'allses"
>>>>as
>>>>possessive, but not "y'all."  Do you have "y'allses"?
>>>>
>>>>At 07:10 PM 2/19/2005, you wrote:
>>>>>As a white  South Louisianian, I have never heard "Y'all" as a
>>>>>singular
>>>>>pronoun, but the use of "y'all's" and "y'all" as a possessive
>>>>>pronoun
>>>>>is
>>>>>used.(I passed by y'all's/ y'all house yesterday, but y'all weren't
>>>>>home.)
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>>>>>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:45 PM
>>>>>Subject: "Y'all" redux
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>>>header -----------------------
>>>>>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>>Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>>>>>>Subject:      "Y'all" redux
>>>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>-----
>>>>>-----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers
>>>>>>could,
>>>>>>would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
>>>>>>posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
>>>>>>Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
>>>>>>agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal,
>>>>>>in
>>>>>>his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that
>>>>>>"y'all"
>>>>>>*is* used as a singular.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I
>>>>>>suggested
>>>>>>that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East
>>>>>>Texas
>>>>>>and Fort Worth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never
>>>>>>been
>>>>>>farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
>>>>>>description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan
>>>>>>area
>>>>>>in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
>>>>>>English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
>>>>>>English.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that
>>>>>>it
>>>>>>depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
>>>>>>white.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-Wilson Gray


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 23 20:52:41 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:52:41 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <E1D41Pw-0000nJ-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.155241.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes. You are correct, sir. It *was* Old Crow that was known as "Dirty
Bird." Folk are friendlier to brands like Jim Beam and Jack Daniel's,
known to their confidants as "Jimmy B." and "Jackie D.," respectively.
For some reason, probably just for the hell of it, a drink that was
known elsewhere as "WPLJ" (white port & lemon juice, celebrated in
several R&B tunes of the '50's) was known in St. Louis as "schoolboy
Scotch." And here's a bit of folk-poetic call-and-response from Los
Angeles:

C. What's the word?
R. Thunderbird!
C. What's the price?
R. Thirty twice! [i.e. $.60; this is from 1957]
C. Who drinks the most?
R. Colored folks!

Which reminds me, although this probably isn't news to people here,
"most" is replaced by "morest" in some versions of BE.

-Wilson

On Feb 23, 2005, at 1:41 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson,
>
> Up Louisville way we called "Old Crow" "Dirty Bird." I don't member
> no "Jim Crow." Sure you ain't merged "Jim Beam" and "Old Crow"?
>
> dInIs
>
>
>> Absolutely. I'd completely forgotten about Stephen Foster's oeuvre. In
>> fact, I can recall that that's how I first learned the form, starting
>> in the first grade and ending in the sixth, now that you've reminded
>> me. Thank you, Jon. Indeed, we were even taught the song, "Jim Crow!"
>> -
>> I've never known who wrote it - in the first grade.
>>
>> Jump! Oh, jump!
>> Oh, jump, Jim Crow!
>> [...]
>> And around you go!
>> Slide! Slide!
>> Point your toe!
>> You're a funny little fellow
>> When you jump, Jim Crow!
>>
>> There was no PC back in the day. On the other hand, though, "Jim Crow"
>> was such a popular brand of whiskey that it had a nickname: "Dirty
>> Bird."
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>> On Feb 23, 2005, at 8:04 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>>> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> "Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine
>>> to run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana
>>> with my banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>>> Subject: "Gwine"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> "Y'all" was so much fun that we should do another one, "gwine," that
>>> should be less controversial. I'm no longer certain of how or when I
>>> became familiar with this example of old-school Negro dialect. But I
>>> do
>>> recall hearing it spoken in jest by a schoolmate in Texas around
>>> 1947.
>>> Otherwise, I was familiar with "gwine" only from the movies,
>>> especially
>>> George Pal's dumb-nigger animated cartoons and from comic books and
>>> such written in Negro dialect. But, similarly to "y'all," as a
>>> singular, I never heard it spoken in real life.
>>>
>>> For years and years, I listened to all kinds of blues and rhythm &
>>> blues, talked with colored folk from all over the South, and the
>>> closest that I came to hearing a real "gwine" was "goina." Then, one
>>> evening in 1979, I was listening to an interview with Sunnyland Slim,
>>> an old-time blues pianist and a native of Mississsippi, on the local
>>> NPR station, when I heard him say quite clearly, "They was gwine
>>> broke!" My reaction was, "Damn! It's true! In fact, it's still a
>>> living
>>> form!" Then I noticed that Memphis "She plays guitar like a man"
>>> Minnie
>>> used "gwine." That was odd, because I'd been listening to her songs
>>> for
>>> years without hearing any "gwine." But that mystery solved itself.
>>> Sometimes, Minnie chose to use "gwine"; other times she chose to use
>>> "gon(na)." I assume that she originally used "gwine," shifting over
>>> time to "gon(na)," as "gwine" fell out of fashion. But that's just a
>>> guess.
>>>
>>> Sunnyland Slim and Memphis Minnie are both now deceased. Has "gwine"
>>> finally died with them?
>>>
>>> -Wilson Gray
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------
>>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 20:41:57 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:41:57 -0500
Subject: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
In-Reply-To: <20050223021831.40907.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.154157.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've got a new one (to me, at least):  A grad student told me "Hey, bub!"
is commonly used among his friends, and the office assistant, listening in,
said he uses it all the time.  (Both are 25-30, white.)  I asked if "bub"
came from "bubba," and neither one knew; they've just absorbed it as a new
address term for a friend, male or female.  Any comments?

At 09:18 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>OED does a less than satisfactory job with "hello" and variants used as
>simple greetings rather than calls to people at a distance - or
>interjections of surprise.  Part of the reason is no doubt the ambiguity
>of  early exx.
>
>Many of you will be familiar with the widespread canard that "hello" was
>invented by Thomas Edison specifically for use on the newfangled telephone.
>
>Here is an early example of "hollo!" that looks like a simple
>greeting.  (Naturally, not all doubt can be removed.)
>
>1841 Leman Rede Sixteen-String Jack (London: G. H. Davidson, n.d.) 36
>[characters nearly face to face] "Hollo, old boy!  I'm glad to see you
>back again!"
>
>"Hi !" has followed an identical course. OED's 1862 may be misplaced,
>however. And what's the word "car" doing in 1885?  It doesn't seem to be a
>railway car.
>
>By the time we get to F. Scott Fitzgerald in 1920, the cite for "Hi !"
>shows unmistakably  the current usage.
>
>OED doesn't include the universal Southern U.S. "hey!" as an exact
>equivalent of "hi!"  Dating this accurately will also be difficult.  (I
>once thought only Gomer Pyle said it. Travel *is* broadening.)
>
>JL
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.


From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 21:24:35 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:24:35 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <745022e28326e1dc972b67a2de3c4384@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.162435.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Now Wilson; it don't scan with "morest" (do you mean "mosest"). My
version of it had "most" but with CC simplification to "mos."

dInIs



>Yes. You are correct, sir. It *was* Old Crow that was known as "Dirty
>Bird." Folk are friendlier to brands like Jim Beam and Jack Daniel's,
>known to their confidants as "Jimmy B." and "Jackie D.," respectively.
>For some reason, probably just for the hell of it, a drink that was
>known elsewhere as "WPLJ" (white port & lemon juice, celebrated in
>several R&B tunes of the '50's) was known in St. Louis as "schoolboy
>Scotch." And here's a bit of folk-poetic call-and-response from Los
>Angeles:
>
>C. What's the word?
>R. Thunderbird!
>C. What's the price?
>R. Thirty twice! [i.e. $.60; this is from 1957]
>C. Who drinks the most?
>R. Colored folks!
>
>Which reminds me, although this probably isn't news to people here,
>"most" is replaced by "morest" in some versions of BE.
>
>-Wilson
>
>On Feb 23, 2005, at 1:41 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
>>Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>Wilson,
>>
>>Up Louisville way we called "Old Crow" "Dirty Bird." I don't member
>>no "Jim Crow." Sure you ain't merged "Jim Beam" and "Old Crow"?
>>
>>dInIs
>>
>>>Absolutely. I'd completely forgotten about Stephen Foster's oeuvre. In
>>>fact, I can recall that that's how I first learned the form, starting
>>>in the first grade and ending in the sixth, now that you've reminded
>>>me. Thank you, Jon. Indeed, we were even taught the song, "Jim Crow!"
>>>-
>>>I've never known who wrote it - in the first grade.
>>>
>>>Jump! Oh, jump!
>>>Oh, jump, Jim Crow!
>>>[...]
>>>And around you go!
>>>Slide! Slide!
>>>Point your toe!
>>>You're a funny little fellow
>>>When you jump, Jim Crow!
>>>
>>>There was no PC back in the day. On the other hand, though, "Jim Crow"
>>>was such a popular brand of whiskey that it had a nickname: "Dirty
>>>Bird."
>>>
>>>-Wilson
>>>
>>>On Feb 23, 2005, at 8:04 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>
>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>-----------------------
>>>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>>>>Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>--
>>>>--------
>>>>
>>>>"Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine
>>>>to run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana
>>>>with my banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>>>>
>>>>JL
>>>>
>>>>Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>-----------------------
>>>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>>Subject: "Gwine"
>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>--
>>>>--------
>>>>
>>>>"Y'all" was so much fun that we should do another one, "gwine," that
>>>>should be less controversial. I'm no longer certain of how or when I
>>>>became familiar with this example of old-school Negro dialect. But I
>>>>do
>>>>recall hearing it spoken in jest by a schoolmate in Texas around
>>>>1947.
>>>>Otherwise, I was familiar with "gwine" only from the movies,
>>>>especially
>>>>George Pal's dumb-nigger animated cartoons and from comic books and
>>>>such written in Negro dialect. But, similarly to "y'all," as a
>>>>singular, I never heard it spoken in real life.
>>>>
>>>>For years and years, I listened to all kinds of blues and rhythm &
>>>>blues, talked with colored folk from all over the South, and the
>>>>closest that I came to hearing a real "gwine" was "goina." Then, one
>>>>evening in 1979, I was listening to an interview with Sunnyland Slim,
>>>>an old-time blues pianist and a native of Mississsippi, on the local
>>>>NPR station, when I heard him say quite clearly, "They was gwine
>>>>broke!" My reaction was, "Damn! It's true! In fact, it's still a
>>>>living
>>>>form!" Then I noticed that Memphis "She plays guitar like a man"
>>>>Minnie
>>>>used "gwine." That was odd, because I'd been listening to her songs
>>>>for
>>>>years without hearing any "gwine." But that mystery solved itself.
>>>>Sometimes, Minnie chose to use "gwine"; other times she chose to use
>>>>"gon(na)." I assume that she originally used "gwine," shifting over
>>>>time to "gon(na)," as "gwine" fell out of fashion. But that's just a
>>>>guess.
>>>>
>>>>Sunnyland Slim and Memphis Minnie are both now deceased. Has "gwine"
>>>>finally died with them?
>>>>
>>>>-Wilson Gray
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>---------------------------------
>>>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>>>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 23 21:29:14 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:29:14 -0500
Subject: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
In-Reply-To: <E1D43XJ-00005D-01@mx20.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.162914.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wasn't there a character who lived in "Allen's Alley" who said....
Nope. That character said "Howdy, bub," not "Hey, bub."

-Wilson

On Feb 23, 2005, at 3:41 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I've got a new one (to me, at least):  A grad student told me "Hey,
> bub!"
> is commonly used among his friends, and the office assistant,
> listening in,
> said he uses it all the time.  (Both are 25-30, white.)  I asked if
> "bub"
> came from "bubba," and neither one knew; they've just absorbed it as a
> new
> address term for a friend, male or female.  Any comments?
>
> At 09:18 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>> OED does a less than satisfactory job with "hello" and variants used
>> as
>> simple greetings rather than calls to people at a distance - or
>> interjections of surprise.  Part of the reason is no doubt the
>> ambiguity
>> of  early exx.
>>
>> Many of you will be familiar with the widespread canard that "hello"
>> was
>> invented by Thomas Edison specifically for use on the newfangled
>> telephone.
>>
>> Here is an early example of "hollo!" that looks like a simple
>> greeting.  (Naturally, not all doubt can be removed.)
>>
>> 1841 Leman Rede Sixteen-String Jack (London: G. H. Davidson, n.d.) 36
>> [characters nearly face to face] "Hollo, old boy!  I'm glad to see you
>> back again!"
>>
>> "Hi !" has followed an identical course. OED's 1862 may be misplaced,
>> however. And what's the word "car" doing in 1885?  It doesn't seem to
>> be a
>> railway car.
>>
>> By the time we get to F. Scott Fitzgerald in 1920, the cite for "Hi !"
>> shows unmistakably  the current usage.
>>
>> OED doesn't include the universal Southern U.S. "hey!" as an exact
>> equivalent of "hi!"  Dating this accurately will also be difficult.
>> (I
>> once thought only Gomer Pyle said it. Travel *is* broadening.)
>>
>> JL
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>  Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
>


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Feb 23 21:28:08 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:28:08 -0800
Subject: illegitament
In-Reply-To: <61cc4a4d0ac1c6814a3f53f6ec4d85b8@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.132808.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And then of course there's former Sen. George McGovern, who ran for
president of the "Unine States."

--On Monday, February 21, 2005 10:12 PM -0500 Wilson Gray
<wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:

> dInIs, I'd like to mention that I spent a goodly portion of my
> childhood and youth in the Uninted States. In fact, I have relatives
> and friends who still live there.
>
> -Wilson



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 23 21:43:32 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:43:32 -0500
Subject: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
In-Reply-To: <ab9f9ff4a964d99929c80f780fdb167f@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.164332.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:29 PM -0500 2/23/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>Wasn't there a character who lived in "Allen's Alley" who said....
>Nope. That character said "Howdy, bub," not "Hey, bub."
>
>-Wilson

I believe it was Ann Landers (although it may have also been Dear
Abby, her twin) who was especially fond of the "Bub" salutation, as
in "Wake up and smell the coffee, Bub".  WAG:  could Ann, nee Eppie
Lederer from a nice Jewish family in Chicago, have truncated "Bub"
from "Bubbeleh"?

larry

>
>On Feb 23, 2005, at 3:41 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
>>Subject:      Re: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>I've got a new one (to me, at least):  A grad student told me "Hey,
>>bub!"
>>is commonly used among his friends, and the office assistant,
>>listening in,
>>said he uses it all the time.  (Both are 25-30, white.)  I asked if
>>"bub"
>>came from "bubba," and neither one knew; they've just absorbed it as a
>>new
>>address term for a friend, male or female.  Any comments?
>>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 23 22:00:53 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:00:53 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <E1D43xQ-0000e2-00@mx09.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.170053.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Damn it! I need a hit of something to wake me up. I appear not even to
be bringing any heat to the discussion, let alone any light. Anyway,
the "morest" (soun' mo' lak [mowIs], of course) bit was meant only as
an aside. It has nothing to do with the poem at all. And my choice of
spelling is also totally arbitrary. Sometimes, I'm in the mood for
eye-dialect. Sometimes, I prefer to use standard spelling or, at other
times, pseudo-phonetic spelling. It's completely whimsical. I guess it
would help if I picked one and then stuck with it. FWIW, I can't say
whether I've ever heard "mosest" or not. It certainly seems like a
possible pronunciation.

-Wilson

On Feb 23, 2005, at 4:24 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Now Wilson; it don't scan with "morest" (do you mean "mosest"). My
> version of it had "most" but with CC simplification to "mos."
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
>> Yes. You are correct, sir. It *was* Old Crow that was known as "Dirty
>> Bird." Folk are friendlier to brands like Jim Beam and Jack Daniel's,
>> known to their confidants as "Jimmy B." and "Jackie D.," respectively.
>> For some reason, probably just for the hell of it, a drink that was
>> known elsewhere as "WPLJ" (white port & lemon juice, celebrated in
>> several R&B tunes of the '50's) was known in St. Louis as "schoolboy
>> Scotch." And here's a bit of folk-poetic call-and-response from Los
>> Angeles:
>>
>> C. What's the word?
>> R. Thunderbird!
>> C. What's the price?
>> R. Thirty twice! [i.e. $.60; this is from 1957]
>> C. Who drinks the most?
>> R. Colored folks!
>>
>> Which reminds me, although this probably isn't news to people here,
>> "most" is replaced by "morest" in some versions of BE.
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>> On Feb 23, 2005, at 1:41 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
>>> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Wilson,
>>>
>>> Up Louisville way we called "Old Crow" "Dirty Bird." I don't member
>>> no "Jim Crow." Sure you ain't merged "Jim Beam" and "Old Crow"?
>>>
>>> dInIs
>>>
>>>> Absolutely. I'd completely forgotten about Stephen Foster's oeuvre.
>>>> In
>>>> fact, I can recall that that's how I first learned the form,
>>>> starting
>>>> in the first grade and ending in the sixth, now that you've reminded
>>>> me. Thank you, Jon. Indeed, we were even taught the song, "Jim
>>>> Crow!"
>>>> -
>>>> I've never known who wrote it - in the first grade.
>>>>
>>>> Jump! Oh, jump!
>>>> Oh, jump, Jim Crow!
>>>> [...]
>>>> And around you go!
>>>> Slide! Slide!
>>>> Point your toe!
>>>> You're a funny little fellow
>>>> When you jump, Jim Crow!
>>>>
>>>> There was no PC back in the day. On the other hand, though, "Jim
>>>> Crow"
>>>> was such a popular brand of whiskey that it had a nickname: "Dirty
>>>> Bird."
>>>>
>>>> -Wilson
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 23, 2005, at 8:04 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>>>>> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --
>>>>> --
>>>>> --------
>>>>>
>>>>> "Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's
>>>>> "Gwine
>>>>> to run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to
>>>>> Louisiana
>>>>> with my banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>>>>>
>>>>> JL
>>>>>
>>>>> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>>> Subject: "Gwine"
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --
>>>>> --
>>>>> --------
>>>>>
>>>>> "Y'all" was so much fun that we should do another one, "gwine,"
>>>>> that
>>>>> should be less controversial. I'm no longer certain of how or when
>>>>> I
>>>>> became familiar with this example of old-school Negro dialect. But
>>>>> I
>>>>> do
>>>>> recall hearing it spoken in jest by a schoolmate in Texas around
>>>>> 1947.
>>>>> Otherwise, I was familiar with "gwine" only from the movies,
>>>>> especially
>>>>> George Pal's dumb-nigger animated cartoons and from comic books and
>>>>> such written in Negro dialect. But, similarly to "y'all," as a
>>>>> singular, I never heard it spoken in real life.
>>>>>
>>>>> For years and years, I listened to all kinds of blues and rhythm &
>>>>> blues, talked with colored folk from all over the South, and the
>>>>> closest that I came to hearing a real "gwine" was "goina." Then,
>>>>> one
>>>>> evening in 1979, I was listening to an interview with Sunnyland
>>>>> Slim,
>>>>> an old-time blues pianist and a native of Mississsippi, on the
>>>>> local
>>>>> NPR station, when I heard him say quite clearly, "They was gwine
>>>>> broke!" My reaction was, "Damn! It's true! In fact, it's still a
>>>>> living
>>>>> form!" Then I noticed that Memphis "She plays guitar like a man"
>>>>> Minnie
>>>>> used "gwine." That was odd, because I'd been listening to her songs
>>>>> for
>>>>> years without hearing any "gwine." But that mystery solved itself.
>>>>> Sometimes, Minnie chose to use "gwine"; other times she chose to
>>>>> use
>>>>> "gon(na)." I assume that she originally used "gwine," shifting over
>>>>> time to "gon(na)," as "gwine" fell out of fashion. But that's just
>>>>> a
>>>>> guess.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sunnyland Slim and Memphis Minnie are both now deceased. Has
>>>>> "gwine"
>>>>> finally died with them?
>>>>>
>>>>> -Wilson Gray
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------
>>>>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>>>>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Feb 23 22:08:33 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:08:33 -0600
Subject: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
In-Reply-To: <p04320410be42a8fd1965@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.160833.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>At 4:29 PM -0500 2/23/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>Wasn't there a character who lived in "Allen's Alley" who said....
>>Nope. That character said "Howdy, bub," not "Hey, bub."
>>
>>-Wilson
>
>I believe it was Ann Landers (although it may have also been Dear
>Abby, her twin) who was especially fond of the "Bub" salutation, as
>in "Wake up and smell the coffee, Bub".

That sounds much more like Ann Landers than Dear Abby. She tended to
be a little more acerbic than her sister.

Barbara


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 22:29:44 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 14:29:44 -0800
Subject: "Gwine"
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.142944.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's a picture of one sheet music version of "Jump Jim Crow."  Others are findable. It was written by Thomas Rice - the original professional blackface entertainer - about 1828 and was a transatlantic hit for decades.  George W. Dixon, possibly the author (ca1834) of "Old Zip Coon," may also have portrayed the "Jim Crow" character, and this particular set of verses features his name.

http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl?record=017.116.000&pages=2

I am a mere amateur in these matters, and will defer to George in any details.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "Gwine"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Absolutely. I'd completely forgotten about Stephen Foster's oeuvre. In
fact, I can recall that that's how I first learned the form, starting
in the first grade and ending in the sixth, now that you've reminded
me. Thank you, Jon. Indeed, we were even taught the song, "Jim Crow!" -
I've never known who wrote it - in the first grade.

Jump! Oh, jump!
Oh, jump, Jim Crow!
[...]
And around you go!
Slide! Slide!
Point your toe!
You're a funny little fellow
When you jump, Jim Crow!

There was no PC back in the day. On the other hand, though, "Jim Crow"
was such a popular brand of whiskey that it had a nickname: "Dirty
Bird."

-Wilson

On Feb 23, 2005, at 8:04 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine
> to run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana
> with my banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Y'all" was so much fun that we should do another one, "gwine," that
> should be less controversial. I'm no longer certain of how or when I
> became familiar with this example of old-school Negro dialect. But I do
> recall hearing it spoken in jest by a schoolmate in Texas around 1947.
> Otherwise, I was familiar with "gwine" only from the movies, especially
> George Pal's dumb-nigger animated cartoons and from comic books and
> such written in Negro dialect. But, similarly to "y'all," as a
> singular, I never heard it spoken in real life.
>
> For years and years, I listened to all kinds of blues and rhythm &
> blues, talked with colored folk from all over the South, and the
> closest that I came to hearing a real "gwine" was "goina." Then, one
> evening in 1979, I was listening to an interview with Sunnyland Slim,
> an old-time blues pianist and a native of Mississsippi, on the local
> NPR station, when I heard him say quite clearly, "They was gwine
> broke!" My reaction was, "Damn! It's true! In fact, it's still a living
> form!" Then I noticed that Memphis "She plays guitar like a man" Minnie
> used "gwine." That was odd, because I'd been listening to her songs for
> years without hearing any "gwine." But that mystery solved itself.
> Sometimes, Minnie chose to use "gwine"; other times she chose to use
> "gon(na)." I assume that she originally used "gwine," shifting over
> time to "gon(na)," as "gwine" fell out of fashion. But that's just a
> guess.
>
> Sunnyland Slim and Memphis Minnie are both now deceased. Has "gwine"
> finally died with them?
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 22:34:23 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 14:34:23 -0800
Subject: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.143423.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Bub" goes back to the 19th C.  In fact, I used to say it a lot in grammar school !

J "So Old He's Hip Again" L

Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Beverly Flanigan
Subject: Re: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've got a new one (to me, at least): A grad student told me "Hey, bub!"
is commonly used among his friends, and the office assistant, listening in,
said he uses it all the time. (Both are 25-30, white.) I asked if "bub"
came from "bubba," and neither one knew; they've just absorbed it as a new
address term for a friend, male or female. Any comments?

At 09:18 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>OED does a less than satisfactory job with "hello" and variants used as
>simple greetings rather than calls to people at a distance - or
>interjections of surprise. Part of the reason is no doubt the ambiguity
>of early exx.
>
>Many of you will be familiar with the widespread canard that "hello" was
>invented by Thomas Edison specifically for use on the newfangled telephone.
>
>Here is an early example of "hollo!" that looks like a simple
>greeting. (Naturally, not all doubt can be removed.)
>
>1841 Leman Rede Sixteen-String Jack (London: G. H. Davidson, n.d.) 36
>[characters nearly face to face] "Hollo, old boy! I'm glad to see you
>back again!"
>
>"Hi !" has followed an identical course. OED's 1862 may be misplaced,
>however. And what's the word "car" doing in 1885? It doesn't seem to be a
>railway car.
>
>By the time we get to F. Scott Fitzgerald in 1920, the cite for "Hi !"
>shows unmistakably the current usage.
>
>OED doesn't include the universal Southern U.S. "hey!" as an exact
>equivalent of "hi!" Dating this accurately will also be difficult. (I
>once thought only Gomer Pyle said it. Travel *is* broadening.)
>
>JL
>
>
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From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Feb 23 23:17:06 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:17:06 -0600
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.171706.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  The wife of a colleague has asked me about slang "scootch" (move a small amount), a term I had never heard before. The term clearly derives from "scoot," but how did -ch get added to it?

     The Online slang Dictionary (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wrader/slang/s.html)
says only:
 scootch   v   1. move a small amount; SCOOT. ("Scootch your seat over here."   "We'll just scootch them together.")  Submitted by Kay Turner, Bella Vista, AR, USA, 28-11-2002.

   Meanwhile, the woman who asked me about "scootch" indicates that her family has been familiar with the term for some time:

"[...]It sounds like a blend to me.  But blending "scoot" with what?  I can't think of a "ch" word that means to move over a little without picking the object or oneself up off the surface.  I also have the impression that it's used - at least in my family - to mean to move over a smaller distance than a "scoot" would require.  Like a "smidgen."

Any ideas?  She's 90 [i.e. her mother-in-law] - just had a big celebration for her in KC over the weekend, and sure enough, the word came up - often - and she mentioned she surely would like to know how and when we started putting the "ch" on "scoot" - and why.  She's mentioned this in previous years, but with family from all over the country and Canada there - all using the term - it became a real curiosity for us all.  Would please an old lady who is an appreciator of words to have an answer! [...]"

 Would anyone in ads-l have any suggestions on this?

Gerald Cohen


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 23:18:04 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:18:04 -0800
Subject: y'all redux
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.151804.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The blog comments are indeed interesting.  Let me join Alice in recommending them to your attention.

"All y'all" is emphatic and to be distinguished from "some of y'all" rather than "you."

JL

Alice Faber <faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Alice Faber
Organization: Haskins Laboratories
Subject: Re: y'all redux
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> Then how explain the occasional Southerner who admits to occasional singularity?
>
> Most people, one assumes, don't often monitor their own speech for absolute semantic precision. Whatever the observable facts of "singularity," the *average* Southern speaker, I believe, is far more likely to admit the possibility of occasional singularity than are sophisticated Southerners with an interest in language.
>
> Just another damyankee hypothesis.
>

The comments on that blog entry I pointed to yesterday were mostly about
"y'all", singular or plural. I think those posters would count as
literate, self-aware non-linguists. While some commenters were as
insistent as any ADS-Ler that singular "y'all" is an unattested
monstrosity, there were other reasonable-sounding reports of unambiguous
singular "y'all".

(For those who didn't follow the link, the blog is
, and the comments would have been to
yesterday's entry.

--

Alice Faber

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From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb 23 23:18:36 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:18:36 -0600
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.171836.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Related, maybe, to "skosh" (long o, I don't know how to write it in
ASCII), Wisconsinese for a small amount?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard
> Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 5:17 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
> Subject:      Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
>   The wife of a colleague has asked me about slang "scootch"
> (move a small amount), a term I had never heard before. The
> term clearly derives from "scoot," but how did -ch get added to it?
>
>      The Online slang Dictionary
> (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wrader/slang/s.html)
> says only:
>  scootch   v   1. move a small amount; SCOOT. ("Scootch your
> seat over here."   "We'll just scootch them together.")
> Submitted by Kay Turner, Bella Vista, AR, USA, 28-11-2002.
>
>    Meanwhile, the woman who asked me about "scootch"
> indicates that her family has been familiar with the term for
> some time:
>
> "[...]It sounds like a blend to me.  But blending "scoot"
> with what?  I can't think of a "ch" word that means to move
> over a little without picking the object or oneself up off
> the surface.  I also have the impression that it's used - at
> least in my family - to mean to move over a smaller distance
> than a "scoot" would require.  Like a "smidgen."
>
> Any ideas?  She's 90 [i.e. her mother-in-law] - just had a
> big celebration for her in KC over the weekend, and sure
> enough, the word came up - often - and she mentioned she
> surely would like to know how and when we started putting the
> "ch" on "scoot" - and why.  She's mentioned this in previous
> years, but with family from all over the country and Canada
> there - all using the term - it became a real curiosity for
> us all.  Would please an old lady who is an appreciator of
> words to have an answer! [...]"
>
>  Would anyone in ads-l have any suggestions on this?
>
> Gerald Cohen
>


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb 23 23:24:41 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:24:41 -0600
Subject: Dialects in films
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.172441.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Some of the cops in "The Fugitive" (the Harrison Ford version) have
strong, strong Chicago accents.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 23:27:14 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:27:14 -0800
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.152714.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think it's a lot older than Japanese-derived "skosh."  Always assumed it's just "scoot" with a palatalized final consonant, maybe originally before "over."

FWIW

JL

"Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Related, maybe, to "skosh" (long o, I don't know how to write it in
ASCII), Wisconsinese for a small amount?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard
> Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 5:17 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard"
> Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> The wife of a colleague has asked me about slang "scootch"
> (move a small amount), a term I had never heard before. The
> term clearly derives from "scoot," but how did -ch get added to it?
>
> The Online slang Dictionary
> (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wrader/slang/s.html)
> says only:
> scootch v 1. move a small amount; SCOOT. ("Scootch your
> seat over here." "We'll just scootch them together.")
> Submitted by Kay Turner, Bella Vista, AR, USA, 28-11-2002.
>
> Meanwhile, the woman who asked me about "scootch"
> indicates that her family has been familiar with the term for
> some time:
>
> "[...]It sounds like a blend to me. But blending "scoot"
> with what? I can't think of a "ch" word that means to move
> over a little without picking the object or oneself up off
> the surface. I also have the impression that it's used - at
> least in my family - to mean to move over a smaller distance
> than a "scoot" would require. Like a "smidgen."
>
> Any ideas? She's 90 [i.e. her mother-in-law] - just had a
> big celebration for her in KC over the weekend, and sure
> enough, the word came up - often - and she mentioned she
> surely would like to know how and when we started putting the
> "ch" on "scoot" - and why. She's mentioned this in previous
> years, but with family from all over the country and Canada
> there - all using the term - it became a real curiosity for
> us all. Would please an old lady who is an appreciator of
> words to have an answer! [...]"
>
> Would anyone in ads-l have any suggestions on this?
>
> Gerald Cohen
>

__________________________________________________
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From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Feb 23 23:33:00 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:33:00 -0500
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA7C5@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.a
 rmy.mil>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.183300.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Related, maybe, to "skosh" (long o, I don't know how to write it in
>ASCII), Wisconsinese for a small amount?

I would suppose (I don't have evidence) that "skosh" is more West-Coastish
if it's regional at all.

I had the same notion but I don't know whether it holds any water or not:

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0408D&L=ads-l&P=R2

-- Doug Wilson


From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Feb 23 23:45:23 2005
From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:45:23 -0800
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
In-Reply-To: <200502232332.j1NNWuqH019299@mxe1.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.154523.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The only person I've EVER heard use it is from British Columbia -- and she
uses "skosh."

Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
> Subject:      Re: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>> Related, maybe, to "skosh" (long o, I don't know how to write it in
>> ASCII), Wisconsinese for a small amount?
>
> I would suppose (I don't have evidence) that "skosh" is more West-Coastish
> if it's regional at all.
>
> I had the same notion but I don't know whether it holds any water or not:
>
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0408D&L=ads-l&P=R2
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From patty at CRUZIO.COM  Wed Feb 23 23:50:56 2005
From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:50:56 -0800
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
In-Reply-To: <A7704766F9EE3949B30D5BF6297999A21B86FA@UMR-CMAIL3.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.155056.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:17 PM 2/23/05, you wrote:
>   The wife of a colleague has asked me about slang "scootch" (move a
> small amount), a term I had never heard before. The term clearly derives
> from "scoot," but how did -ch get added to it?
>
>      The Online slang Dictionary
> (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wrader/slang/s.html)
>says only:
>  scootch   v   1. move a small amount; SCOOT. ("Scootch your seat over
> here."   "We'll just scootch them together.")  Submitted by Kay Turner,
> Bella Vista, AR, USA, 28-11-2002.
>
>    Meanwhile, the woman who asked me about "scootch" indicates that her
> family has been familiar with the term for some time:
>
>"[...]It sounds like a blend to me.  But blending "scoot" with what?  I
>can't think of a "ch" word that means to move over a little without
>picking the object or oneself up off the surface.  I also have the
>impression that it's used - at least in my family - to mean to move over a
>smaller distance than a "scoot" would require.  Like a "smidgen."
>
>Any ideas?  She's 90 [i.e. her mother-in-law] - just had a big celebration
>for her in KC over the weekend, and sure enough, the word came up - often
>- and she mentioned she surely would like to know how and when we started
>putting the "ch" on "scoot" - and why.  She's mentioned this in previous
>years, but with family from all over the country and Canada there - all
>using the term - it became a real curiosity for us all.  Would please an
>old lady who is an appreciator of words to have an answer! [...]"
>
>  Would anyone in ads-l have any suggestions on this?
>
>Gerald Cohen


I don't have any information on origin but I have heard & used 'scootch'
all my life -  I'm almost 50, West coast, southern Calif .  More often used
with scootching over rather than scootch down.

Patty


From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Feb 23 23:56:04 2005
From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:56:04 -0800
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
In-Reply-To: <200502232350.j1NNo9Mc006830@mxe4.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.155604.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I failed to read the entire set of discussions.  In addition to my
friend's "skosh," I have certainly heard and used "scootch," as in
"scootch down this way" and "scootch together" both.  Is this my lingering
Dallas "dialect" again?

Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Patty Davies wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Patty Davies <patty at CRUZIO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 03:17 PM 2/23/05, you wrote:
>>   The wife of a colleague has asked me about slang "scootch" (move a
>> small amount), a term I had never heard before. The term clearly derives
>> from "scoot," but how did -ch get added to it?
>>
>>      The Online slang Dictionary
>> (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wrader/slang/s.html)
>> says only:
>>  scootch   v   1. move a small amount; SCOOT. ("Scootch your seat over
>> here."   "We'll just scootch them together.")  Submitted by Kay Turner,
>> Bella Vista, AR, USA, 28-11-2002.
>>
>>    Meanwhile, the woman who asked me about "scootch" indicates that her
>> family has been familiar with the term for some time:
>>
>> "[...]It sounds like a blend to me.  But blending "scoot" with what?  I
>> can't think of a "ch" word that means to move over a little without
>> picking the object or oneself up off the surface.  I also have the
>> impression that it's used - at least in my family - to mean to move over a
>> smaller distance than a "scoot" would require.  Like a "smidgen."
>>
>> Any ideas?  She's 90 [i.e. her mother-in-law] - just had a big celebration
>> for her in KC over the weekend, and sure enough, the word came up - often
>> - and she mentioned she surely would like to know how and when we started
>> putting the "ch" on "scoot" - and why.  She's mentioned this in previous
>> years, but with family from all over the country and Canada there - all
>> using the term - it became a real curiosity for us all.  Would please an
>> old lady who is an appreciator of words to have an answer! [...]"
>>
>>  Would anyone in ads-l have any suggestions on this?
>>
>> Gerald Cohen
>
>
> I don't have any information on origin but I have heard & used 'scootch'
> all my life -  I'm almost 50, West coast, southern Calif .  More often used
> with scootching over rather than scootch down.
>
> Patty
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 24 00:17:37 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:17:37 -0500
Subject: Dialects in films
In-Reply-To: <E1D45sC-0007V4-00@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.191737.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

So has William Peterson of the original CSI. Well, it's an
easily-recognizable, Chicago-area accent, at least, since he's from
Evanston.

FWIW, the marker for me is the distinctive pronunciation of words like
"are, bar, car, far, tar," etc., regardless of whether the speaker is
black or white. I'm familiar with the SNL parody of the Chicago accent,
but it was the Chicago -ar(e) that caught my attention, back in the
'50's. In those days, it was customary for young black men from St.
Louis to go to Chicago to work in the post office during the Chris-,
uh, I mean, the holiday-season holidays.

-Wilson

On Feb 23, 2005, at 6:24 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject:      Re: Dialects in films
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>  Some of the cops in "The Fugitive" (the Harrison Ford version) have
> strong, strong Chicago accents.
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb 24 02:29:30 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 21:29:30 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <745022e28326e1dc972b67a2de3c4384@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.212930.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:52 PM -0500 2/23/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>Yes. You are correct, sir. It *was* Old Crow that was known as "Dirty
>Bird." Folk are friendlier to brands like Jim Beam and Jack Daniel's,

reminds me of a line I liked in "Monster's Ball" (speaking of movies):

My husband used to LOVE him some Jack Daniel's.
-Leticia (Halle Berry's character) to Hank (Billy Bob Thornton's) in
"Monster's Ball"

The referent is of course the (African-American) man who was put to
death earlier in the movie.  (I like the line for the "personal
dative", but I don't mind me some Jackie D on occasion myself,
although I usually go for non-schoolboy scotch.)

>known to their confidants as "Jimmy B." and "Jackie D.," respectively.
>For some reason, probably just for the hell of it, a drink that was
>known elsewhere as "WPLJ" (white port & lemon juice, celebrated in
>several R&B tunes of the '50's)

Any relation to the very high-profile alternative rock radio station
in New York with those call letters, I wonder?  (Maybe it's not
alternative rock these days, I wouldn't know, but it was in the 70s.)

larry

>was known in St. Louis as "schoolboy
>Scotch."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb 24 02:40:05 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 21:40:05 -0500
Subject: Dialects in films
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA7C7@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.214005.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:24 PM -0600 2/23/05, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>  Some of the cops in "The Fugitive" (the Harrison Ford version) have
>strong, strong Chicago accents.

...as does Dennis Franz, who plays detective (and now Sergeant) Andy
Sipowicz on NYPD Blue, just coming to the end of its multi-year run.
Unfortunately, he's supposed to be a native New Yorker, which his
vowels don't allow him to be.  (No reason they couldn't have had him
emigrate to New York from Chicago to begin with, but they didn't
bother.)

Larry


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Thu Feb 24 03:48:42 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:48:42 -0500
Subject: Bourbon,
In-Reply-To: <p04320401be42eb1bc10c@[130.132.231.183]>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.224842.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is not a linguistic post.  Well, I guess parts of it are.

For a good bourbon, I suggest Evan Williams.  Aged longer than JB and JD,
and cheaper.  Goes down smooth.  Good stuff.  Makes great red eye gravy when
frying Cumberland Gap ham. Add some apple slices when frying, and even a bit
of hard cider or apple brandy for a goooood gravy (known in France as jus,
in most of the US as au jus).  Evan Williams is KY bourbon to boot, as
opposed that JB stuff, TN whiskey, therefore not bourbon.

I am NOT prejudiced.

I haven't checked the ADS files, but I assume that someone has noticed that
whiskey seems to be Celtic in  origin: Irish, Scotch, KY, TN(ok, ok, I'll
let them TN folks in because it strenghtens my argument).  And then there is
Canadian, which to me is rye, but to Northerners, whiskey.  And an awful lot
of those Canadians are of Scots and Irish origin.

Jim Stalker, b. Louisville, KY, in the bourbon district.

stalker at msudu


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Thu Feb 24 04:04:52 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:04:52 -0500
Subject: Query about slang =?utf-8?Q?=22scootch=22--?= Why -ch?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.61b.0502231554560.284360@homer04.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.230452.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Scootch over,more common than down, is part of my vocabulary: KY, b. 1940.
But, I've lived in NY, NC, WI, and MI (forever). I learned skoosh later, I
think, but memory is unreliable.  My guess?  Scootch is not a dervative of
skoosh.  The scoot origin is a better guess.  why the ch, the original
question?  One way to adhere to the Politeness Principle is to alter the
phonology: Geez (Jesus), shucks (shit), gosh darn (God damn).  Scootch is a
mitigated form of scoot, a polite request, rather than an order.

Jim Stalker

J. Eulenberg writes:

> I failed to read the entire set of discussions.  In addition to my
> friend's "skosh," I have certainly heard and used "scootch," as in
> "scootch down this way" and "scootch together" both.  Is this my lingering
> Dallas "dialect" again?
>
> Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>
>
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Patty Davies wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Patty Davies <patty at CRUZIO.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------
>>
>> At 03:17 PM 2/23/05, you wrote:
>>>   The wife of a colleague has asked me about slang "scootch" (move a
>>> small amount), a term I had never heard before. The term clearly derives
>>> from "scoot," but how did -ch get added to it?
>>>
>>>      The Online slang Dictionary
>>> (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wrader/slang/s.html)
>>> says only:
>>>  scootch   v   1. move a small amount; SCOOT. ("Scootch your seat over
>>> here."   "We'll just scootch them together.")  Submitted by Kay Turner,
>>> Bella Vista, AR, USA, 28-11-2002.
>>>
>>>    Meanwhile, the woman who asked me about "scootch" indicates that her
>>> family has been familiar with the term for some time:
>>>
>>> "[...]It sounds like a blend to me.  But blending "scoot" with what?  I
>>> can't think of a "ch" word that means to move over a little without
>>> picking the object or oneself up off the surface.  I also have the
>>> impression that it's used - at least in my family - to mean to move over
>>> a
>>> smaller distance than a "scoot" would require.  Like a "smidgen."
>>>
>>> Any ideas?  She's 90 [i.e. her mother-in-law] - just had a big
>>> celebration
>>> for her in KC over the weekend, and sure enough, the word came up -
>>> often
>>> - and she mentioned she surely would like to know how and when we
>>> started
>>> putting the "ch" on "scoot" - and why.  She's mentioned this in previous
>>> years, but with family from all over the country and Canada there - all
>>> using the term - it became a real curiosity for us all.  Would please an
>>> old lady who is an appreciator of words to have an answer! [...]"
>>>
>>>  Would anyone in ads-l have any suggestions on this?
>>>
>>> Gerald Cohen
>>
>>
>> I don't have any information on origin but I have heard & used 'scootch'
>> all my life -  I'm almost 50, West coast, southern Calif .  More often
>> used
>> with scootching over rather than scootch down.
>>
>> Patty
>>
>



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Thu Feb 24 04:50:30 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:50:30 -0500
Subject: y'all redux
In-Reply-To: <20050223044853.26422.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.235030.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry JL.  Not just another damnyankee hypothesis.  I spent the first 22
years of my life in KY and NC, and many years of the rest of my life
defending my native KY dialect.   My wife, a native of VA and KY, adamantly
insists that she uses singular yall, and has for years.  I check these
postings with the one who really knows.  After all, I'm just KY.  She's
tidewater VA and KY. This yall=singular posting is a repetative one, and
interesting because it is repetitive. Something hasn't  been resolved or
solved.  I think yall are (is) making assumptions based on an email address
rather than knowledge about the informant.

You have made an interesting statement: "*Average* Southern speaker. . .far
more likely to admit the possibility of occassional singularity than are
sophisticated Southerners with an interest in language?"  Therefore, I
reckon average "unsophisticated" Southern speakers don't know nothin about
their language, can't make judgments about their language. Only we linguists
can?  If they claim "occasional" singuarity, they must  be wrong because we
sophisticated linguists know they are wrong?

I think my original post is perhaps proved by your response.  We are dealing
with pragmatic presuppositions rather than grammatical agreement.

JS


Jonathan Lighter writes:

> Then how explain the occasional Southerner who admits to occasional singularity?
>
> Most people, one assumes, don't often monitor their own speech for absolute semantic precision.  Whatever the observable facts of "singularity," the *average* Southern speaker, I believe, is far more likely to admit the possibility of occasional singularity than are sophisticated Southerners with an interest in language.
>
> Just another damyankee hypothesis.
>
> JL
>
>
> James C Stalker <stalker at MSU.EDU> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: James C Stalker
> Subject: Re: y'all redux
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Maybe our problem here is not a grammatical one of singularity/plurality,
> but a pragmatic one of mutual contextual knowlege and beliefs (a la, Bach
> and Harnish). Southerners (self proclaimed, on this list) deny singularity.
> Non-Southerners (apparently, or by long disassociation with native dialect)
> claim to hear singularity. This posting suggests that we are dealing with
> expectations (i. e., presuppositions) rather than grammaticality. For
> Southerners, the implicature is always plural. "Northerners" do not share
> the mutual contextual knowledge with "Southerners," therefore interpret the
> context grammatically rather than pragmatically.
>
> Jim Stalker
>
> Majors, Tivoli writes:
>
>> I'm from Dallas so I thought I'd weigh in on the whole y'all thing. We used to argue about this in grad school at UT all the time. Generally, it was yankees who would say they heard y'all used in the singular. Us Texans would vehemently deny the possibiility. What I think may be going on is that when we southerners use y'all, it always has a plural intention, but may not seem to to outsiders. So if someone were to say to me "Did y'all enjoy that movie?" I would understand that to be addressed to me, anyone who saw the movie with me, and even anyone loosely affiliated with me. My assumption would not be that they meant me myself alone. In fact, I'd say that meaning is not allowable in my dialect. I can't speak for others, of course, but we Texans were generally in agreement on this point. None of us was from West Texas, but Ft. Worth is just a stone's throw from Dallas, so I'm still a little dubious.
>>
>
>
>
> James C. Stalker
> Department of English
> Michigan State University
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Thu Feb 24 05:08:08 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:08:08 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=22Coca-Cola=22/=22Coke=22?= (in Tanzania)
 =?utf-8?Q?=3D?= something easy, a given, no problem
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050222214658.02faa590@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.000808.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember an ad campaign for Coke which used the slogan "it's the real
thing."  Might derive from that, especially in a different language where
the translation of "real" might possibly include "given" or "true" or
"inevitable"?

Jim Stalker


Douglas G. Wilson writes:

>
>> When I was in Tanzania (TZ) I was speaking with my guide about all kinds
>> of cultural points of interest, and this came up in conversation around a
>> political race that was in progress at the time.  This particular
>> candidate was a sure thing for winning the seat.  Everyone knew it and
>> called it, "Coke."
>
> It sure looks like "cake": e.g., "This is a cake assignment", "It's a
> piece
> of cake", "It was no cakewalk". Offhand I don't know the etymological
> connection (if any) between "cake" and "cakewalk" here, and I don't know
> how "coke" is connected (if it is).
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From vnend at ADELPHIA.NET  Thu Feb 24 05:14:48 2005
From: vnend at ADELPHIA.NET (David W. James)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:14:48 -0500
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
In-Reply-To: <20050223235010.FGOX1547.mta2.adelphia.net@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.001448.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 23, 2005, at 6:50 PM, Patty Davies wrote:
> I don't have any information on origin but I have heard & used
> 'scootch'
> all my life -  I'm almost 50, West coast, southern Calif .  More often
> used
> with scootching over rather than scootch down.

> Patty

Ditto but for location.  We moved a lot, but mostly midwest.  Also
'just a scootch' when directing movement of a table or chair.

David


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Feb 24 07:13:51 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 02:13:51 -0500
Subject: Guff
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.021351.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:18:28 -0500, Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>
wrote:

>On Wed, Feb 23, 2005 at 04:14:34PM +0000, Jonathon Green wrote:
>>
>> I sent this earlier; for reasons I don't understand it seems
>> to have gone to Ben Zimmer only.
>
>Ben specifically sends his messages with a reply-to header set
>to his address only. Thus if you reply to an ADS-L message sent
>by him, it will go to him and not the list, unless you add ADS-L
>yourself or use your mail program's "group reply" function.

Thanks to Jesse for alerting me to this.  I hadn't even realized I had the
"Reply-To" header in there.  I've removed it now and hope that it will no
longer be an annoyance to those replying to my posts.


--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Feb 24 08:19:17 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 03:19:17 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.031917.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
the alt.usage.english newsgroup.  For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
or "raucous").

I was surprised that I couldn't find anything in the databases before 1987
(and even then mostly from one writer, L.A. Times rock critic Duncan
Strauss).  I would've guessed that it dates back at least to the late
'70s, from either the punk-rock or arena-rock scenes.

-----
Courier-Mail, Mar 12, 1987 (Nexis)
Well, from the deep south of the good ol' US of A comes a band who just
might restore your faith in honest rawk 'n' rowl - the Georgia Satellites.
-----
mod.music.gaffa, Apr 6, 1987 (Usenet)
Fortunately, "Solitude Standing" is not the "rawk-and-roll" album many
feared; once again, the arrangements are as simple, lovely and unadorned
as her voice, heavy on the acoustic guitar.
-----
Los Angeles Times, Jul 10, 1987, Calendar p. 25 (Proquest)
Hard-rock outlet KNAC-FM in Long Beach is already regularly playing the
album's first single, "The Name Is Love," an AC/DC-ish rawker.
-----
Los Angeles Times, Jul 26, 1987, Calendar p. 89 (Proquest)
Ticking off the disparate artists who've performed there in recent months
- including ... local rawk squad Dream Syndicate - Chelew suddenly seemed
struck by the diversity of the roster.
-----
Los Angeles Times, Nov 23, 1987, Calendar p. 9 (Proquest)
But performing the song live, these poster children for thrift shop
apparel played up both the funk and the group's colorful personality and
downplayed the hard rawk - though new guitarist Errol Stewart indulged in
a bit of fiery fret-grinding.
-----
Los Angeles Times, Dec 6, 1987, Calendar p. 92 (Proquest)
Not that Foreigner is simply recycling the sonic assault of such melodic
rawk fare as "Feels Like the First Time" and "Cold as Ice."
-----
Los Angeles Times, Dec 25, 1987, Calendar p. 1 (Proquest)
The third group was Breakfast With Amy, which quickly staked out a
psychedelic-garage rawk territory.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 24 13:55:29 2005
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:55:29 -0800
Subject: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050223153827.0310cd08@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.055529.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Several of my 70- to 80-something neighbors routinely
say "Hey, bud" or "Hey, buddy".  I think of "bub" as
just a variant on "bud".



--- Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:

> I've got a new one (to me, at least):  A grad
> student told me "Hey, bub!"
> is commonly used among his friends, and the office
> assistant, listening in,
> said he uses it all the time.  (Both are 25-30,
> white.)  I asked if "bub"
> came from "bubba," and neither one knew; they've
> just absorbed it as a new
> address term for a friend, male or female.  Any
> comments?
>
> At 09:18 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
> >OED does a less than satisfactory job with "hello"
> and variants used as
> >simple greetings rather than calls to people at a
> distance - or
> >interjections of surprise.  Part of the reason is
> no doubt the ambiguity
> >of  early exx.
> >
> >Many of you will be familiar with the widespread
> canard that "hello" was
> >invented by Thomas Edison specifically for use on
> the newfangled telephone.
> >
> >Here is an early example of "hollo!" that looks
> like a simple
> >greeting.  (Naturally, not all doubt can be
> removed.)
> >
> >1841 Leman Rede Sixteen-String Jack (London: G. H.
> Davidson, n.d.) 36
> >[characters nearly face to face] "Hollo, old boy!
> I'm glad to see you
> >back again!"
> >
> >"Hi !" has followed an identical course. OED's 1862
> may be misplaced,
> >however. And what's the word "car" doing in 1885?
> It doesn't seem to be a
> >railway car.
> >
> >By the time we get to F. Scott Fitzgerald in 1920,
> the cite for "Hi !"
> >shows unmistakably  the current usage.
> >
> >OED doesn't include the universal Southern U.S.
> "hey!" as an exact
> >equivalent of "hi!"  Dating this accurately will
> also be difficult.  (I
> >once thought only Gomer Pyle said it. Travel *is*
> broadening.)
> >
> >JL
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >  Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
>


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.



__________________________________
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http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 24 14:21:47 2005
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:21:47 EST
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.092147.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jim Stalker mentioned the Politeness Principle-- what comes to mind for me is
something like a Baby Talk Principle or the Talking Cute Principle--when
talking to a little kid or when Cuteness is a factor add a lot of SH and CH
sounds.   Kitchey-kitchey-coo comes to mind. And a normal utterance like "What have
you got there?" becomes for some who are afflicted with the Cutes (as in
talking to a dog for example) "Whush shoo got dere"...

Dale Coye
Wilton NH


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 24 14:51:28 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 06:51:28 -0800
Subject: y'all redux
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.065128.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jim, you misunderstand me. We are on the same side. That was my own Damyankee hypothesis, and your wife's comment clearly supports it. For the average Southerner, singular "y'all" is not the hot-button issue it is for so many Southern academics and intellectuals.

As you say, the repeatedly observed fact is that a singular y'all does exist.  My post merely addressed the striking, dogmatic refusal of some sophisticated Southerners to deny categorically that it can or does.  This is not new, and hardly peculiar to this list.  I find it amazing and symptomatic - of what I'm not certain.

An inspection of posts on the issue reveals people taxing our credulity to explain away, oinie by one, singular "y'all" : users are "really" (and always) thinking of other persons not present or otherwise referred to, any instance reported by Northerner is untrustworthy, the speaker must have been a transplanted Yankee, the tendency toward singularity of other second-person plural pronouns doesn't matter, the waitress was tired or hung over,  the Southern speaker was deliberately funnin' the interlocutor who she mistakenly took for a furriner, etc.

What gives?  I'm still awaiting a reference to a printed source claiming that all Southerners use singular "y'all" all the time; maybe there is one.  And don't forget my previous Damyankee hypothesis about the origin of this sensitivity.

JL

James C Stalker <stalker at MSU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: James C Stalker
Subject: Re: y'all redux
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry JL. Not just another damnyankee hypothesis. I spent the first 22
years of my life in KY and NC, and many years of the rest of my life
defending my native KY dialect. My wife, a native of VA and KY, adamantly
insists that she uses singular yall, and has for years. I check these
postings with the one who really knows. After all, I'm just KY. She's
tidewater VA and KY. This yall=singular posting is a repetative one, and
interesting because it is repetitive. Something hasn't been resolved or
solved. I think yall are (is) making assumptions based on an email address
rather than knowledge about the informant.

You have made an interesting statement: "*Average* Southern speaker. . .far
more likely to admit the possibility of occassional singularity than are
sophisticated Southerners with an interest in language?" Therefore, I
reckon average "unsophisticated" Southern speakers don't know nothin about
their language, can't make judgments about their language. Only we linguists
can? If they claim "occasional" singuarity, they must be wrong because we
sophisticated linguists know they are wrong?

I think my original post is perhaps proved by your response. We are dealing
with pragmatic presuppositions rather than grammatical agreement.

JS


Jonathan Lighter writes:

> Then how explain the occasional Southerner who admits to occasional singularity?
>
> Most people, one assumes, don't often monitor their own speech for absolute semantic precision. Whatever the observable facts of "singularity," the *average* Southern speaker, I believe, is far more likely to admit the possibility of occasional singularity than are sophisticated Southerners with an interest in language.
>
> Just another damyankee hypothesis.
>
> JL
>
>
> James C Stalker wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: James C Stalker
> Subject: Re: y'all redux
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Maybe our problem here is not a grammatical one of singularity/plurality,
> but a pragmatic one of mutual contextual knowlege and beliefs (a la, Bach
> and Harnish). Southerners (self proclaimed, on this list) deny singularity.
> Non-Southerners (apparently, or by long disassociation with native dialect)
> claim to hear singularity. This posting suggests that we are dealing with
> expectations (i. e., presuppositions) rather than grammaticality. For
> Southerners, the implicature is always plural. "Northerners" do not share
> the mutual contextual knowledge with "Southerners," therefore interpret the
> context grammatically rather than pragmatically.
>
> Jim Stalker
>
> Majors, Tivoli writes:
>
>> I'm from Dallas so I thought I'd weigh in on the whole y'all thing. We used to argue about this in grad school at UT all the time. Generally, it was yankees who would say they heard y'all used in the singular. Us Texans would vehemently deny the possibiility. What I think may be going on is that when we southerners use y'all, it always has a plural intention, but may not seem to to outsiders. So if someone were to say to me "Did y'all enjoy that movie?" I would understand that to be addressed to me, anyone who saw the movie with me, and even anyone loosely affiliated with me. My assumption would not be that they meant me myself alone. In fact, I'd say that meaning is not allowable in my dialect. I can't speak for others, of course, but we Texans were generally in agreement on this point. None of us was from West Texas, but Ft. Worth is just a stone's throw from Dallas, so I'm still a little dubious.
>>
>
>
>
> James C. Stalker
> Department of English
> Michigan State University
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.


From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU  Thu Feb 24 14:55:19 2005
From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:55:19 -0600
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
In-Reply-To: <200502232327.j1NNRF1m000911@bama.ua.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.085519.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I agree with the palatalized 'scoot' idea. An example I can think of
that may parallel this one is my pronunciation of /s/ as [sh] (I mean
the voiceless palatal fricative) in words like "interesting" and
"sternum," which unless I pay special attention, come out as
"intereshting' and "shternum." My parents and grandparents (all native
Alabamians) pronounce the same way. And we all say "scootch" to mean
"move (yourself or something else) a little bit." Something like
"Scootch the picture to the left a little bit. It's not centered"
completely works for me.

Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> ----------------------- Sender:       American Dialect Society
> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter
> <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM> Subject:      Re: Query about slang
> "scootch"-- Why -ch?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I think it's a lot older than Japanese-derived "skosh."  Always
> assumed it's just "scoot" with a palatalized final consonant, maybe
> originally before "over."
>
> FWIW
>
> JL
>

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
University of Alabama Libraries
Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 24 15:06:02 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:06:02 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <E1D48l0-0007Sa-00@mx13.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.100602.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 23, 2005, at 9:29 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 3:52 PM -0500 2/23/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>> Yes. You are correct, sir. It *was* Old Crow that was known as "Dirty
>> Bird." Folk are friendlier to brands like Jim Beam and Jack Daniel's,
>
> reminds me of a line I liked in "Monster's Ball" (speaking of movies):
>
> My husband used to LOVE him some Jack Daniel's.
> -Leticia (Halle Berry's character) to Hank (Billy Bob Thornton's) in
> "Monster's Ball"
>
> The referent is of course the (African-American) man who was put to
> death earlier in the movie.  (I like the line for the "personal
> dative", but I don't mind me some Jackie D on occasion myself,
> although I usually go for non-schoolboy scotch.)

My favorites are a blues line, "I laid down last night, thinkin' about
me a mojo hand" and "I'm just sitting here, eatin' on me a hamburger,"
spoken by an R&B DJ. There's also "We'll have her a party," but that's
not clearly distinct from "We'll have a party for her" or "We'll throw
her a party." On the old TV show, "In Living Color," there was a bit by
the Wayans sister that always included the line, "I love me some
Miss/Ms/Mrs [I've forgotten the name]!"

-Wilson

>
>> known to their confidants as "Jimmy B." and "Jackie D.," respectively.
>> For some reason, probably just for the hell of it, a drink that was
>> known elsewhere as "WPLJ" (white port & lemon juice, celebrated in
>> several R&B tunes of the '50's)
>
> Any relation to the very high-profile alternative rock radio station
> in New York with those call letters, I wonder?  (Maybe it's not
> alternative rock these days, I wouldn't know, but it was in the 70s.)
>
> larry
>
>> was known in St. Louis as "schoolboy
>> Scotch."
>


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 24 15:34:16 2005
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:34:16 EST
Subject: Dialects in films
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.103416.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Going slightly to the side of the topic, there was "Enemy at the Gates" where
all the good guys (who are Russian?) speak [British] and the bad guys (who
are German?) speak [American].  I can't remember any specifics about the accents
beyond that.

-doug

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Feb 24 15:44:25 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:44:25 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <41756.69.142.143.59.1109233157.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.104425.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Feb 24, 2005 at 03:19:17AM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
> The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
> the alt.usage.english newsgroup.  For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
> and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
> associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
> or "raucous").
>
> I was surprised that I couldn't find anything in the databases before 1987
> (and even then mostly from one writer, L.A. Times rock critic Duncan
> Strauss).  I would've guessed that it dates back at least to the late
> '70s, from either the punk-rock or arena-rock scenes.

We have examples from 1989 in British sources (referring to the
U.S.), and frequently thereafter.

Perhaps the scarcity of examples reflects the adoption of the
distinctive spelling only. It's likely that people said "rawk"
earlier, but perhaps critics just didn't write it down.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 24 15:45:51 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:45:51 -0500
Subject: Dialects in films
In-Reply-To: <E1D3zNs-0006N1-00@mx09.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.104551.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 23, 2005, at 11:28 AM, Kathryn Remlinger wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Kathryn Remlinger <remlingk at GVSU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Dialects in films
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Here are a few more film suggestions. (My previous message got cut in
> transit. )
>
> Mickey Blue Eyes (good for discussions of accommodation and dialect
> "passing"--Hugh Grant tries to pass as a member of a New York mob
> family)
>
> Selina (Chicano English, code-switching)
>
> Barber Shop I (varieties of AAE, good for dispelling myths about
> speakers of AAE)

In this movie, there's an occurrence of "antybody," pronounced
approximately "[IntI]body," wherein the [t] is fully pronounced, with
apiration. This is an intensive pronunciation of "anybody" that I'd
never before heard outside of my own family, BE-speakers from East
Texas. Very interesting.

-Wilson Gray

>
> Escanaba in Da Moonlight (Michigan's southwestern Upper Peninsula, bad
> imitations--lack of consistency)
>
> Smoke Signals (Northwest and Southwest varieties of Native American
> English)
>
> And an example from TV: This week's Extreem Home Makeover--How'd They
> Do
> That (ABC, Monday) there was quite a lengthy discussion of "southern
> accents", including  a "southern vocabulary" quiz by Jeff Foxworthy and
> examples of accommodation and style-shifting by Ty, the host of the
> show.
>
> --Kate
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of English: Linguistics
> Grand Valley State University
> Allendale, MI 49401 USA
> remlingk at gvsu.edu
> tel: 616-331-3122
> fax: 616-331-3430
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb 24 16:10:16 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:10:16 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <60efa1cf8defa8041036c1da50679f30@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.111016.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:06 AM -0500 2/24/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>On Feb 23, 2005, at 9:29 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>>At 3:52 PM -0500 2/23/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>Yes. You are correct, sir. It *was* Old Crow that was known as "Dirty
>>>Bird." Folk are friendlier to brands like Jim Beam and Jack Daniel's,
>>
>>reminds me of a line I liked in "Monster's Ball" (speaking of movies):
>>
>>My husband used to LOVE him some Jack Daniel's.
>>-Leticia (Halle Berry's character) to Hank (Billy Bob Thornton's) in
>>"Monster's Ball"
>>
>>The referent is of course the (African-American) man who was put to
>>death earlier in the movie.  (I like the line for the "personal
>>dative", but I don't mind me some Jackie D on occasion myself,
>>although I usually go for non-schoolboy scotch.)
>
>My favorites are a blues line, "I laid down last night, thinkin' about
>me a mojo hand" and "I'm just sitting here, eatin' on me a hamburger,"
>spoken by an R&B DJ. There's also "We'll have her a party," but that's
>not clearly distinct from "We'll have a party for her" or "We'll throw
>her a party." On the old TV show, "In Living Color," there was a bit by
>the Wayans sister that always included the line, "I love me some
>Miss/Ms/Mrs [I've forgotten the name]!"
>
>-Wilson
And let's not forget that #1 pop song from Toni Braxton (she of
"Un-break my heart" fame), "I love me some him" (2003):

I love me some him
I'll never love this way again
I love me some you
Another man will never do

More recently, Terrell Owens has become (in)famous for his slogan "I
love me some me."
Thanks for those post-PP examples ("thinkin' about me", "eatin' on
me"), something I didn't have attested in my corpus.

Larry


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 24 16:14:47 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:14:47 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <E1D40CH-0004KF-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.111447.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 23, 2005, at 12:17 PM, sagehen wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> "Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine
>> to
>> run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana
>> with my
>> banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>>
>> JL
> ~~~~~~~~~
> I suppose it says something about my (forbidden subject) politics that
> the
> first thing that came to my mind was:
> "Gwine-a lay down my sword & shield
> Down by the riverside...."
> A. Murie
>
> ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>
>

When I was a child (1940's), we had a recording of this by Thomas A.
Dorsey, who was known as the blues singer, "Georgia Tom," till he
allowed Jesus into his heart and accepted Him as his personal Savior,
on the Vocalion label. This version had "gona."

-Wilson Gray


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 24 16:43:45 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:43:45 -0500
Subject: Weird pronunciations
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.114345.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's a black woman on the Jerry Springer Show who is repeatedly
pronouncing "confuse" and "confusion" as though they had umlaut u:
conf[ue]se  conf[ue]sion and which Jerry is repeating in mockery as
"confooze" and "confoozhun."

-Wilson


From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Thu Feb 24 16:55:28 2005
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:55:28 -0600
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <200502241544.j1OFiR9u005751@mx1.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.105528.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
> The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
> the alt.usage.english newsgroup.  For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
> and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
> associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
> or "raucous").

This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb "rock", as
in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of praise.

Jim Parish
-------------------------------------------------
SIUE Web Mail


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb 24 19:36:59 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:36:59 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <1109264128.421e07004d557@webmail.siue.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.143659.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:
>Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>  The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
>>  the alt.usage.english newsgroup.  For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
>>  and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
>>  associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
>>  or "raucous").
>
>This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb "rock", as
>in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of praise.
>
Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
google hits, mostly for Harleys and such).  Then there's "dawg" which
I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
"dog" without any help.  (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
index a distinct pronunciation.

Larry


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Thu Feb 24 19:55:36 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:55:36 -0500
Subject: new coinage?
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.145536.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

" under pressure to tow party lines".......taken from another list.
Is this what you call an Eggcorn  ?  (It could have been an intentional
coinage: I haven't asked the perpetrator.)
A. Murie


From preston at MSU.EDU  Thu Feb 24 20:00:21 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:00:21 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <p04320406be43c3046966@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.150021.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You mean there are some of you guys who don't rhyme hogs and dogs! I
knew y'all had different vowels in off and on, but this really pushes
it.

dInIs

>At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:
>>Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>>  The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
>>>  the alt.usage.english newsgroup.  For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
>>>  and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
>>>  associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
>>>  or "raucous").
>>
>>This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb "rock", as
>>in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of praise.
>>
>Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
>google hits, mostly for Harleys and such).  Then there's "dawg" which
>I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
>"dog" without any help.  (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
>At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
>index a distinct pronunciation.
>
>Larry


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From jprucher at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 24 20:01:08 2005
From: jprucher at YAHOO.COM (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:01:08 -0800
Subject: Weird pronunciations
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.120108.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>
> There's a black woman on the Jerry Springer Show who is repeatedly
> pronouncing "confuse" and "confusion" as though they had umlaut u:
> conf[ue]se  conf[ue]sion and which Jerry is repeating in mockery as
> "confooze" and "confoozhun."
>

That is both confoozin' and amoozin'.

Jeff Prucher




__________________________________
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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb 24 20:14:18 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:14:18 -0500
Subject: new coinage?
In-Reply-To: <l03130301be43d623dd53@[12.107.141.231]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.151418.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>" under pressure to tow party lines".......taken from another list.
>Is this what you call an Eggcorn  ?  (It could have been an intentional
>coinage: I haven't asked the perpetrator.)
>A. Murie

Yes, in fact "tow the line" (the more general version) is a bonified
charter member of the eggcorn club.

larry


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 24 20:23:25 2005
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:23:25 -0800
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <60efa1cf8defa8041036c1da50679f30@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.122325.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Kim Wayans and  "Miss Jenkins"


Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:

 On the old TV show, "In Living Color," there was a bit by
the Wayans sister that always included the line, "I love me some
Miss/Ms/Mrs [I've forgotten the name]!"

-Wilson

>


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 24 20:40:11 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:40:11 -0500
Subject: Weird pronunciations
In-Reply-To: <E1D4PAf-0006c8-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.154011.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hey, that sounds like something from the old "Li'l Abner" comic strip.

-Wilson

On Feb 24, 2005, at 3:01 PM, Jeff Prucher wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jeff Prucher <jprucher at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Weird pronunciations
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> --- Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>>
>> There's a black woman on the Jerry Springer Show who is repeatedly
>> pronouncing "confuse" and "confusion" as though they had umlaut u:
>> conf[ue]se  conf[ue]sion and which Jerry is repeating in mockery as
>> "confooze" and "confoozhun."
>>
>
> That is both confoozin' and amoozin'.
>
> Jeff Prucher
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 24 20:43:17 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:43:17 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <E1D4PWD-0006qS-00@mx19.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.154317.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bless you! Trying to remember was driving me crazy. I love me some Ms.
Lee!

-Wilson

On Feb 24, 2005, at 3:23 PM, Margaret Lee wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Margaret Lee <mlee303 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Kim Wayans and  "Miss Jenkins"
>
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>
>  On the old TV show, "In Living Color," there was a bit by
> the Wayans sister that always included the line, "I love me some
> Miss/Ms/Mrs [I've forgotten the name]!"
>
> -Wilson
>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
>


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 24 20:56:47 2005
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:56:47 -0800
Subject: Unuses
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.125647.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have a friend who works at a well known news
organization. He says that they use "unsite" and
"unhave" as verbs in written communications about
stories:

"Unhave India-Tsunami, pls resend." means "I don't
have the India-Tsunami story, please resend it."

"Unsite" means something like, "I don't see..."

I don't think anyone ever uses them when speaking, but
these sound awful to me. Has anyone ever talked about
this?

Ed



__________________________________
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Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
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From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Thu Feb 24 21:10:47 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:10:47 -0500
Subject: new coinage?
In-Reply-To: <p0432040abe43e5b32edf@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.161047.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>" under pressure to tow party lines".......taken from another list.
>>Is this what you call an Eggcorn  ?  (It could have been an intentional
>>coinage: I haven't asked the perpetrator.)
>>A. Murie
>
>Yes, in fact "tow the line" (the more general version) is a bonified
>charter member of the eggcorn club.
>
>larry
~~~~~~~
I love the images evoked:  in one case  "I've got a mule & her name is
Sal...."; in another, the royal barge on the Thames & the strains of Handel
playing from over the water......
AM

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Thu Feb 24 21:17:00 2005
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:17:00 -0600
Subject: new coinage?
In-Reply-To: <l03130302be43f25b7e76@[12.107.141.231]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.151700.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'd forgotten about that one. It's remarkable how many songs mention
me. :-)

sally donlon


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Thu Feb 24 21:23:24 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:23:24 -0500
Subject: Unuses
In-Reply-To: <20050224205647.58951.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.162324.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ed Keer wrote:
> I have a friend who works at a well known news
> organization. He says that they use "unsite" and
> "unhave" as verbs in written communications about
> stories:
>
> "Unhave India-Tsunami, pls resend." means "I don't
> have the India-Tsunami story, please resend it."
>
> "Unsite" means something like, "I don't see..."
>
> I don't think anyone ever uses them when speaking, but
> these sound awful to me. Has anyone ever talked about
> this?

My father worked for a major newspaper for his entire professional
career, from the early 1940s through the 1990s. I don't remember him
talking about these specific words, but he did talk about similar
"compressions", attributing them to cheapness (telegraphs used to charge
by the word).

--

Alice Faber


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Feb 24 21:14:50 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:14:50 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <p04320406be43c3046966@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.161450.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 02:36 PM 2/24/2005, you wrote:
>At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:
>>Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>>  The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
>>>  the alt.usage.english newsgroup.  For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
>>>  and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
>>>  associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
>>>  or "raucous").
>>
>>This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb "rock", as
>>in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of praise.
>Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
>google hits, mostly for Harleys and such).  Then there's "dawg" which
>I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
>"dog" without any help.  (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
>At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
>index a distinct pronunciation.
>
>Larry

The "dawg" spelling is meant to indicate the infamous upglide we talked
about a few weeks ago, if I'm not mistaken ("hawg" may be too).  My "dog,"
and yours, has the open O/backward C (so does my "hog"), but this "dawg"
would be roughly [daUg].  I make the U a superscript for my students.

Here in SE Ohio, "rock" wouldn't have a full open O, nor would it have an
upglide; but the /a/ of our "rock" would be backed somewhat, to a turned
script 'a' (I can't do it on e-mail), roughly halfway between /a/ and open
O.  (We've talked about this a hundred times on the list too.)

It sounds as if the pop "rawk" is not this regional backing but more like
the NYC "chocolate" and "coffee" raised open O, am I right?  (These aren't
upglided, as Dennis pointed out.)  But I haven't heard the pronunciation,
so I'm speculating.

Beverly


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Feb 24 21:42:10 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:42:10 -0500
Subject: new coinage?
In-Reply-To: <l03130302be43f25b7e76@[12.107.141.231]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.164210.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 04:10 PM 2/24/2005, you wrote:
> >>" under pressure to tow party lines".......taken from another list.
> >>Is this what you call an Eggcorn  ?  (It could have been an intentional
> >>coinage: I haven't asked the perpetrator.)
> >>A. Murie
> >
> >Yes, in fact "tow the line" (the more general version) is a bonified
> >charter member of the eggcorn club.
> >
> >larry
>~~~~~~~
>I love the images evoked:  in one case  "I've got a mule & her name is
>Sal...."; in another, the royal barge on the Thames & the strains of Handel
>playing from over the water......
>AM

Actually, we debated this origin some years ago.  It's between "tow the
flatboat/riverboat/barge" by horses and "toe the starting line" in a race,
as I recall.  Did "toe the line" necessarily win out?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 24 21:56:17 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:56:17 -0500
Subject: Brinner and Dreakfast
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.165617.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My niece's friend here mentioned "brinner." That's not in the Urban Dictionary, but "dreakfast" is. They're both terms like "brunch," from breakfast or lunch or dinner or supper.

A quick check of Google News for more heartburn and it's off to supper or dinner or whatever.

(GOOGLE NEWS)
Travelers Guide: New York City, Hear the Sounds of Music ...
juiceenewsdaily, AL - 15 hours ago
The Big Apple -- this is the music capital of the world. The nickname itself was coined by jazz musicians who took their "bites" of the apple at gigs. ...


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 24 22:14:38 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:14:38 -0800
Subject: new coinage?
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.141438.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I thought it was "tow" till I was in graduate school.  On the Erie Canal, a "tow-lines" were hawsers aboard a canalboat which, hitched to one of a pair of mules (on the "tow-path") would enable them to tow the boat for some distance.

So it's not an eggcorn, dammit.  "Tow the mark" is an eggcorn !

JL

sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: sagehen
Subject: new coinage?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

" under pressure to tow party lines".......taken from another list.
Is this what you call an Eggcorn ? (It could have been an intentional
coinage: I haven't asked the perpetrator.)
A. Murie


---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 24 22:19:14 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:19:14 -0800
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.141914.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Blog, clog, cog, flog, frog, Gog, grog, hog, jog, log, nog, tog, and wog all rhyme.

Dog don't.

JL

"Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"

Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You mean there are some of you guys who don't rhyme hogs and dogs! I
knew y'all had different vowels in off and on, but this really pushes
it.

dInIs

>At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:
>>Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>> The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
>>> the alt.usage.english newsgroup. For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
>>> and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
>>> associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
>>> or "raucous").
>>
>>This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb "rock", as
>>in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of praise.
>>
>Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
>google hits, mostly for Harleys and such). Then there's "dawg" which
>I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
>"dog" without any help. (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
>At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
>index a distinct pronunciation.
>
>Larry


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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http://mail.yahoo.com


From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET  Sat Feb 26 01:31:14 2005
From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:31:14 -0800
Subject: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.173114.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the early 30s my dad frequently, and clearly, called me "bub"; my name is
Robert so it may have been a variation on Bob.

Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings


> At 4:29 PM -0500 2/23/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
> >Wasn't there a character who lived in "Allen's Alley" who said....
> >Nope. That character said "Howdy, bub," not "Hey, bub."
> >
> >-Wilson
>
> I believe it was Ann Landers (although it may have also been Dear
> Abby, her twin) who was especially fond of the "Bub" salutation, as
> in "Wake up and smell the coffee, Bub".  WAG:  could Ann, nee Eppie
> Lederer from a nice Jewish family in Chicago, have truncated "Bub"
> from "Bubbeleh"?
>
> larry
>
> >
> >On Feb 23, 2005, at 3:41 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
> >
> >>---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>-----------------------
> >>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> >>Subject:      Re: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
> >>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>--------
> >>
> >>I've got a new one (to me, at least):  A grad student told me "Hey,
> >>bub!"
> >>is commonly used among his friends, and the office assistant,
> >>listening in,
> >>said he uses it all the time.  (Both are 25-30, white.)  I asked if
> >>"bub"
> >>came from "bubba," and neither one knew; they've just absorbed it as a
> >>new
> >>address term for a friend, male or female.  Any comments?
> >>
>


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Thu Feb 24 22:40:41 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:40:41 +0000
Subject: new coinage?
In-Reply-To: <200502241953.j1OJro75002138@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.224041.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 24/2/05 7:55 pm, sagehen at sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
> Subject:      new coinage?
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> " under pressure to tow party lines".......taken from another list.
> Is this what you call an Eggcorn  ?  (It could have been an intentional
> coinage: I haven't asked the perpetrator.)
> A. Murie

I have seen 2 instances in American publications where 'toe the line' has
been rendered 'tow the line'.

- Neil Crawford


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Feb 24 22:43:32 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:43:32 -0800
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.144332.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I personally have never heard any of these words, but asked a colleague of mine from around the Portland area and this is what she wrote in answer to my Q:
>>> FRITZ JUENGLING 02/24/05 10:29AM >>>
do you know the word 'scootch'?

yes, but I personally use "scootz".   I think "scootch" or my variation "scootz" is almost exclusively used as an imperative.  Has your list mentioned that?


>


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Feb 24 22:43:00 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:43:00 -0800
Subject: Church key anecdote
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.144300.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church key"
as slang for a bottle opener.  I had never heard the word until I went to
grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time.  Nonetheless the
consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional expression--a
judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.

Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir practice"
in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the process of
organizing a game).  At some point I figured it was time for a beer, and
finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
practice), I asked him if he had a church key.  My question met with blank
stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking about.
So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement that
the expression was unknown in the Northwest.  FWIW, all but one of the
seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in the
NW.  One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went to
Linfield.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU  Thu Feb 24 22:48:22 2005
From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:48:22 -0600
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
In-Reply-To: <200502242244.j1OMi41m010370@bama.ua.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.164822.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would probably use it as an imperative most often, but can also
consider it a unit of measurement, as in, "Move it over just a scootch."
Rachel

FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       FRITZ JUENGLING <juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US>
> Subject:      Re: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I personally have never heard any of these words, but asked a colleague of mine from around the Portland area and this is what she wrote in answer to my Q:
>
>>>>FRITZ JUENGLING 02/24/05 10:29AM >>>
>
> do you know the word 'scootch'?
>
> yes, but I personally use "scootz".   I think "scootch" or my variation "scootz" is almost exclusively used as an imperative.  Has your list mentioned that?
>
>
>

--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
University of Alabama Libraries
Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Feb 24 23:06:57 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:06:57 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <20050224221914.20584.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.180657.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oh, no, not again.  We just went through this kind of survey a couple years
ago!

At 05:19 PM 2/24/2005, you wrote:
>Blog, clog, cog, flog, frog, Gog, grog, hog, jog, log, nog, tog, and wog
>all rhyme.
>
>Dog don't.
>
>JL
>
>"Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>
>Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>You mean there are some of you guys who don't rhyme hogs and dogs! I
>knew y'all had different vowels in off and on, but this really pushes
>it.
>
>dInIs
>
> >At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:
> >>Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
> >>> The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
> >>> the alt.usage.english newsgroup. For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
> >>> and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
> >>> associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
> >>> or "raucous").
> >>
> >>This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb
> "rock", as
> >>in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of praise.
> >>
> >Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
> >google hits, mostly for Harleys and such). Then there's "dawg" which
> >I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
> >"dog" without any help. (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
> >At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
> >index a distinct pronunciation.
> >
> >Larry
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Feb 24 23:16:00 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:16:00 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Abortionist"
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.181600.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I seem to be doddering.  I thought someone had posted here recently to
ask for earlier uses of the word abortionist, but all I find in the
archives is this message from Fred of 15 months ago.  Thompson's law
is, things always happened much longer ago than you remember, but. . . .

However!  Whether anyone has been clamoring for it or not, I do have a
nice antedating of Fred's antedating:

Mad. Restell, the celebrated Abortionist [is arrested; the Sun and the
Herald carry "profuse and constant ads for her services].  New-York
Daily Tribune, March 26, 1844, p. 2, col. 3

If any of the lexicographers among us want a more complete sentence
than the five words of direct transcription here, I will get it.

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 17, 2003 12:33 pm
Subject: Antedating of "Abortionist"

> abortionist (OED 1872)
>
> 1861 _Lancet_ 23 Mar. 295  The trade of the abortionist ... has
> become a
> regularly established, money-making business, carried on by both
> sexes.
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF
> QUOTATIONS  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale
> University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu
> http://quotationdictionary.com-------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------
>


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 00:11:05 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:11:05 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Abortionist"
In-Reply-To: <23fdc7d23fec61.23fec6123fdc7d@nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.191105.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone checked this on American Periodical Series?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Feb 25 00:36:17 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:36:17 -0500
Subject: new coinage?
In-Reply-To: <20050224221438.88972.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.193617.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I thought it was "tow" till I was in graduate school.  On the Erie Canal,
>a "tow-lines" were hawsers aboard a canalboat which, hitched to one of a
>pair of mules (on the "tow-path") would enable them to tow the boat for
>some distance.
>
>So it's not an eggcorn, dammit.  "Tow the mark" is an eggcorn !
>
>JL
~~~~~~~~~~
Perhaps not, if it ("tow the line") is invoked in a context that suggests
pulling one's weight, but I think I usually see or hear the expression
where it is meant to stand for acceptance of certain premises or
definitions.
[ BTW, it was exactly that Erie Canal image I was alluding to with the line
from the song "I've got a mule..."]
AM


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 00:39:54 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:39:54 -0800
Subject: Church key anecdote
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.163954.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Seems to me the only other time I've encountered "choir practice" in a comparable sense was in Joseph Wambaugh's L.A. cop novel _The Choirboys_ (1975).  Any connection ?

JL

"Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Peter A. McGraw"

Subject: Church key anecdote
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church key"
as slang for a bottle opener. I had never heard the word until I went to
grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time. Nonetheless the
consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional expression--a
judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.

Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir practice"
in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the process of
organizing a game). At some point I figured it was time for a beer, and
finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
practice), I asked him if he had a church key. My question met with blank
stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking about.
So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement that
the expression was unknown in the Northwest. FWIW, all but one of the
seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in the
NW. One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went to
Linfield.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.


From pds at VISI.COM  Fri Feb 25 00:40:01 2005
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:40:01 -0600
Subject: Brinner and Dreakfast
In-Reply-To: <20050224215623.4B2AC503D@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.184001.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Some time in the late '70s a friend of mine used "Dreckfast" as a nonce
condemnation of the pancake house fare we were sharing.  It stuck among our
acquaintance for a while, but I haven't heard it since.

His favorite portmanteau was "Wopera" for Italian opera.

When I filtered for only English language sites, Google gave me 193 hits
for "Wopera", but most of them still seem to be Hungarian
names.  "Dreckfast" gets only two distinct hits -- "Dread and Dreckfast"
and "Dreckfast of Champions"

--Tom Kysilko

At 2/24/2005 04:56 PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>My niece's friend here mentioned "brinner." That's not in the Urban
>Dictionary, but "dreakfast" is. They're both terms like "brunch," from
>breakfast or lunch or dinner or supper.


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Feb 25 01:02:45 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:02:45 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1109256180@[10.218.201.228]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.200245.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church key"
>as slang for a bottle opener.  I had never heard the word until I went to
>grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time.  Nonetheless the
>consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional expression--a
>judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.
>
>Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir practice"
>in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the process of
>organizing a game).  At some point I figured it was time for a beer, and
>finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
>influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
>practice), I asked him if he had a church key.  My question met with blank
>stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking about.
>So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement that
>the expression was unknown in the Northwest.  FWIW, all but one of the
>seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in the
>NW.  One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went to
>Linfield.
>
>Peter Mc.
 ~~~~~~~~~
AFAIK, it was a widely-accepted term everywhere I've lived (Midwest, West,
Northeast). It only applied to the specialized opener of crown caps, I
think.  Not the kind that punches a triangular hole in a can top, or that
pries with a little hook.When I was last a beer drinker (had to give it up
because of allergy to malt) bottlers were using a kind of crown cap that
could be unscrewed.  Maybe the church key has simply become obsolete?
A. Murie

A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 01:14:19 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:14:19 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Sexology"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502241910400.17649-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.201419.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

sexology (OED 1902)

1867 Elizabeth Willard  (title) Sexology as the philosophy life: implying
social organization and government.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Feb 25 01:26:35 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:26:35 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Sexology"
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.202635.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I believe that's "philosophy of life," not "philosophy life."  One web page gives credit for coining the term to Willard, who unlike later sexologists apparently regarded sex as more or less a loathsome thing.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Fred Shapiro
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 8:14 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Antedating of "Sexology"


sexology (OED 1902)

1867 Elizabeth Willard  (title) Sexology as the philosophy life: implying
social organization and government.

Fred Shapiro


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 01:27:57 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:27:57 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Feudalism"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502242012580.24772-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.202757.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

feudalism (OED 1839)

1773 John Whitaker _The History of Manchester_ 359 (Eighteenth Century
Collections Online)  The word Allod or Allodium has effectually baffled
all the disquisitions of etymology to the present moment.  Like many of
the the other terms of feudalism, it has been vainly explored, I
apprehend, in languages to which it never bore any relation.

1782 Walter Ross _A Discourse upon the Removing of Tenants_ 160
(Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  Feudalism is now no more: it has
disappeared before the spirit of commerce.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Feb 25 01:52:47 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:52:47 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.205247.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jonathan,

        It never occurred to me that dog and hog might not rhyme.  Which word do you rhyme with Prague, and how do you pronounce the other word?

John Baker


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 02:13:30 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:13:30 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Sexology"
In-Reply-To: <200502250126.j1P1QvTg022173@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.211330.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005, Baker, John wrote:

>         I believe that's "philosophy of life," not "philosophy life."

Yes, you're right, John.  Thanks for the correction.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Feb 25 02:36:23 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:36:23 -0600
Subject: FW: "scootch" in DARE
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.203623.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Joan Houston Hall (editor, DARE) kindly sent me the following information on "scootch" today:

"[...]  DARE has a series of scooch, scoot, scrooch-type entries.  At scooch we say "Appar EDD [=English Dialect Dictionary] scouch 'To crouch, stoop, bend over,' perh infl by scrooch; senses 2, 3, and 4 have been infl by scoot."
> Joan"
>
Gerald Cohen


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 25 02:49:39 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:49:39 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <E1D4Tqi-0007F6-00@mx17.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.214939.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 24, 2005, at 8:02 PM, sagehen wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Church key anecdote
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church
>> key"
>> as slang for a bottle opener.  I had never heard the word until I
>> went to
>> grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time.  Nonetheless
>> the
>> consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional
>> expression--a
>> judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.
>>
>> Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir
>> practice"
>> in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the
>> process of
>> organizing a game).  At some point I figured it was time for a beer,
>> and
>> finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
>> influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
>> practice), I asked him if he had a church key.  My question met with
>> blank
>> stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking
>> about.
>> So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement
>> that
>> the expression was unknown in the Northwest.  FWIW, all but one of the
>> seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in
>> the
>> NW.  One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went
>> to
>> Linfield.
>>
>> Peter Mc.
>  ~~~~~~~~~
> AFAIK, it was a widely-accepted term everywhere I've lived (Midwest,
> West,
> Northeast). It only applied to the specialized opener of crown caps, I
> think.  Not the kind that punches a triangular hole in a can top, or
> that
> pries with a little hook.When I was last a beer drinker (had to give
> it up
> because of allergy to malt) bottlers were using a kind of crown cap
> that
> could be unscrewed.  Maybe the church key has simply become obsolete?
> A. Murie
>
> A&M Murie
> N. Bangor NY
> sagehen at westelcom.com
>

In my lost youth, "church key" referred specifically to the tool that
punched a triangular hole in a beer can. This was the case in St. Louis
in the 'Fifties, and 'Sixties. Some models were double-ended, with the
other end designed to open the crown caps of bottles. The suggestion
that this tool has been rendered obsolete by pull-tabs and twist-off
caps makes perfect sense to me.

-Wilson Gray


From cwaigl at FREE.FR  Fri Feb 25 02:58:21 2005
From: cwaigl at FREE.FR (Chris F Waigl)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 03:58:21 +0100
Subject: new coinage?
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.035821.0100.>

neil wrote:

>
>I have seen 2 instances in American publications where 'toe the line' has
>been rendered 'tow the line'.
>
Google News currently lists 24 occurrences for "[tow | towed | towing]
the line" and 16 for "[tow | towed | towing] the * line", with "*"
replacing (vaguely in order of frequency) "party", "company",
"government", "liberal", "cautionary". Other adjectives are used as well.

This is one of the eggcorns I remember learning in the wrong form --
from my reading, which is where I learnt most of my English. I explained
it to myself in a way that was probably influenced by the German figure
"am selben Strick ziehen", literally "to pull on the same rope", meaning
to work actively towards the same goals as someone else or some group. I
only started to wonder when the strange, inexplicable "misspelling"
_toe_ showed up occasionally.


Chris Waigl

--
a chisel writing -- http://lascribe.net/
        "Away, you scullion! you rampallian! you fustilarian!
                I'll tickle your catastrophe."
c w a i g l / a t / f r e e / p o i n t / f r


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 03:07:30 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:07:30 -0800
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.190730.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hog rhymes with Prague. Dog rhymes with...nothing !  Hog and Prague have the vowel of "car." Dog has the vowel of "saw" and "law."

In the second grade a substitute teacher tried to convince us that "dog" should rhyme with "hog," "frog," etc.  We never saw her again.

JL

"Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Baker, John"
Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jonathan,

It never occurred to me that dog and hog might not rhyme. Which word do you rhyme with Prague, and how do you pronounce the other word?

John Baker


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 03:09:31 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:09:31 -0800
Subject: FW: "scootch" in DARE
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.190931.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Moonmen Gidney and Cloyd carried a "skrooch gun" in a famous adventure of Rocky & Bullwinkle.

JL

"Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard"
Subject: FW: "scootch" in DARE
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joan Houston Hall (editor, DARE) kindly sent me the following information on "scootch" today:

"[...] DARE has a series of scooch, scoot, scrooch-type entries. At scooch we say "Appar EDD [=English Dialect Dictionary] scouch 'To crouch, stoop, bend over,' perh infl by scrooch; senses 2, 3, and 4 have been infl by scoot."
> Joan"
>
Gerald Cohen


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Feb 25 03:29:54 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:29:54 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <9d951649509e8733f1d415bfdc76d795@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.222954.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In my lost youth, "church key" referred specifically to the tool that
>punched a triangular hole in a beer can. This was the case in St. Louis
>in the 'Fifties, and 'Sixties. Some models were double-ended, with the
>other end designed to open the crown caps of bottles. The suggestion
>that this tool has been rendered obsolete by pull-tabs and twist-off
>caps makes perfect sense to me.

I agree. There was a similar discussion here in 2000, but I didn't
participate AFAIK.

When I was young[er] we used the term to refer to either the can-opener or
the bottle-opener (or the combo). It had to be a one-piece thing like a key
though IIRC: something with a lever or a wheel wouldn't qualify (IIRC), nor
would the fixed bottle-opener attached to a vending machine or a cooler.

-- Doug Wilson


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 03:39:27 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:39:27 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <9d951649509e8733f1d415bfdc76d795@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.223927.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My experience from KY and NC during the 50s and 60s agrees with Wilson's.
Church keys opened beer cans (as well as other cans, like fruit juice cans,
but those were unimportant) before they had pull tabs. The opening was
triangular; the other end often had the rounded crown opener.  In fact,
there were some fairly fancy ones intended to be attached to key chains.
There is an obvious oxymoron here, but I wonder if the triangular shape is
part of the metaphor?

Jim Stalker

Wilson Gray writes:

> On Feb 24, 2005, at 8:02 PM, sagehen wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: Church key anecdote
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>>> A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church
>>> key"
>>> as slang for a bottle opener.  I had never heard the word until I
>>> went to
>>> grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time.  Nonetheless
>>> the
>>> consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional
>>> expression--a
>>> judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.
>>>
>>> Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir
>>> practice"
>>> in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the
>>> process of
>>> organizing a game).  At some point I figured it was time for a beer,
>>> and
>>> finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
>>> influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
>>> practice), I asked him if he had a church key.  My question met with
>>> blank
>>> stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking
>>> about.
>>> So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement
>>> that
>>> the expression was unknown in the Northwest.  FWIW, all but one of the
>>> seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in
>>> the
>>> NW.  One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went
>>> to
>>> Linfield.
>>>
>>> Peter Mc.
>>  ~~~~~~~~~
>> AFAIK, it was a widely-accepted term everywhere I've lived (Midwest,
>> West,
>> Northeast). It only applied to the specialized opener of crown caps, I
>> think.  Not the kind that punches a triangular hole in a can top, or
>> that
>> pries with a little hook.When I was last a beer drinker (had to give
>> it up
>> because of allergy to malt) bottlers were using a kind of crown cap
>> that
>> could be unscrewed.  Maybe the church key has simply become obsolete?
>> A. Murie
>>
>> A&M Murie
>> N. Bangor NY
>> sagehen at westelcom.com
>>
>
> In my lost youth, "church key" referred specifically to the tool that
> punched a triangular hole in a beer can. This was the case in St. Louis
> in the 'Fifties, and 'Sixties. Some models were double-ended, with the
> other end designed to open the crown caps of bottles. The suggestion
> that this tool has been rendered obsolete by pull-tabs and twist-off
> caps makes perfect sense to me.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 25 03:52:52 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:52:52 -0500
Subject: A change
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.225252.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From time to time, I hear a line of the type, "Can, will, etc. you do
me _a_ solid?" on various TV shows. Back in the day of the hepcat, we
used to say, "Can, will, etc. you do me _some_ solid?" I haven't heard
the new version used in the negative, but the old bersion's negative
was, "No, I can't, won't, etc. do you no solid." There was also the hep
expression, "Solid, Jackson!" or just "Solid!" used as a strong
affirmative.

-Wilson Gray


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb 25 04:32:30 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 23:32:30 -0500
Subject: A change
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.233230.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:52:52 -0500, Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:

> From time to time, I hear a line of the type, "Can, will, etc. you do
>me _a_ solid?" on various TV shows. Back in the day of the hepcat, we
>used to say, "Can, will, etc. you do me _some_ solid?" I haven't heard
>the new version used in the negative, but the old bersion's negative
>was, "No, I can't, won't, etc. do you no solid." There was also the hep
>expression, "Solid, Jackson!" or just "Solid!" used as a strong
>affirmative.

>From the _Seinfeld_ episode "The Jacket" (aired Feb. 6, 1991):

-----
http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheJacket.htm
KRAMER: Hey. Hey, would you do me a solid?
JERRY: Well, what kind of solid?
KRAMER: I need you to sit in the car for two minutes while it's
double-parked. I gotta pick up some birds.
JERRY: Birds?
KRAMER: Yeah. A friend of mine, he's a magician. He's going away on
vacation. He asked me to take care of his doves.
JERRY: So take a cab.
KRAMER: They won't take a cage full of birds.
JERRY: I can't. I'm on my way out. There's no way I can do it.
KRAMER: George, do me a solid? Two minutes.
GEORGE: Well, I'm going with him. I'd like to, I've never done a solid
before.
KRAMER: Alright.. yeah.. alright, have a good one.
-----

(Kramer was occasionally referred to as a "hipster doofus".)


--Ben Zimmer


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 04:34:54 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 23:34:54 -0500
Subject: new coinage?
In-Reply-To: <20050224221438.88972.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.233454.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:14 PM -0800 2/24/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>I thought it was "tow" till I was in graduate school.  On the Erie
>Canal, a "tow-lines" were hawsers aboard a canalboat which, hitched
>to one of a pair of mules (on the "tow-path") would enable them to
>tow the boat for some distance.
>
>So it's not an eggcorn, dammit.  "Tow the mark" is an eggcorn !
>
>JL

But the way "tow the line" is used has nothing (obvious) to do with
tow-lines, and everything to do with staying under control, following
the rules, etc., the way a runner or diver does.  The OED has (under
_toe_ (v.)):
=======
To touch or reach with the toes; chiefly in to toe a or the line,
mark, scratch, crack, trig, to stand with the tips of one's toes
exactly touching a line; to stand in a row; hence fig. to present
oneself in readiness for a race, contest, or undertaking; also, to
conform, esp. to the defined standard or platform of a party.
=======
How do we get from using tow-lines to towing a boat to this meaning
of conforming to regulations?  (Not impossible, I grant, but less
obvious than toeing the line.)

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 04:43:37 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 23:43:37 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <l03130304be442770f70c@[12.107.141.231]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.234337.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:02 PM -0500 2/24/05, sagehen wrote:
>  >A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church key"
>>as slang for a bottle opener.  I had never heard the word until I went to
>>grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time.  Nonetheless the
>>consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional expression--a
>>judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.
>>
>>Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir practice"
>>in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the process of
>>organizing a game).  At some point I figured it was time for a beer, and
>>finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
>>influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
>>practice), I asked him if he had a church key.  My question met with blank
>>stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking about.
>>So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement that
>>the expression was unknown in the Northwest.  FWIW, all but one of the
>>seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in the
>>NW.  One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went to
>>Linfield.
>>
>>Peter Mc.
>  ~~~~~~~~~
>AFAIK, it was a widely-accepted term everywhere I've lived (Midwest, West,
>Northeast). It only applied to the specialized opener of crown caps, I
>think.  Not the kind that punches a triangular hole in a can top, or that
>pries with a little hook.When I was last a beer drinker (had to give it up
>because of allergy to malt) bottlers were using a kind of crown cap that
>could be unscrewed.  Maybe the church key has simply become obsolete?
>A. Murie
>
Not obsolete (we have several, so that at least one will not be
hiding when we need them), but rarer in these days when a lot of cans
self-open and a lot of bottle caps screw off, as noted.  But you
still need church keys for imported beers and some (nice) domestic
ones.  But I think there may be age variation as well as possibly
regional variation.  I was surprised during the Christmas break to
discover that my 22-year-old son was totally unfamiliar with the
lexical item (when I happened to use it), although he's certainly not
unfamiliar with using the denotatum itself.

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 05:00:09 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:00:09 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <20050224221914.20584.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.000009.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:19 PM -0800 2/24/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Blog, clog, cog, flog, frog, Gog, grog, hog, jog, log, nog, tog, and
>wog all rhyme.

[and, in response to John Baker, JL observes that "Hog rhymes with
Prague. Dog rhymes with...nothing !  Hog and Prague have the vowel of
"car." Dog has the vowel of "saw" and "law."]

I proudly share Jon's vowels.  The script-a of the above words also
shows up in "bog", "fog", and any coinages or acronyms of the form
C(n)og that might be constructed.  If I were going to invent a pet
name for beef stroganoff, "Strog" would rhyme with "b(l)og" and not
"dog".

>Dog don't.

Here's a tricky one--"dog, shmog--what I want is a ferret!"  I think
"shmog" has got to rhyme with "dog".  Maybe it has to be spelled
"shmawg" for us dog-versus-world types, though.

larry



>"Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>
>Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>You mean there are some of you guys who don't rhyme hogs and dogs! I
>knew y'all had different vowels in off and on, but this really pushes
>it.
>
>dInIs
>
>>At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:
>>>Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>>>  The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
>>>>  the alt.usage.english newsgroup. For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
>>>>  and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
>>>>  associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
>>>>  or "raucous").
>>>
>>>This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb "rock", as
>>>in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of praise.
>>>
>>Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
>>google hits, mostly for Harleys and such). Then there's "dawg" which
>>I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
>>"dog" without any help. (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
>>At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
>>index a distinct pronunciation.
>>
>>Larry
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 05:22:33 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:22:33 -0500
Subject: y'all redux
In-Reply-To: <20050224145128.75670.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.002233.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I stand corrected.  In thinking about the data problem, Mike Montgomery's
article in Am Speech on multiple modals comes to mind.  He has a relatively
limited range of data, all painstakingly collected from reported data over
quite a span of time, but the data make a convincing case for mms being
polite forms. Following on from there, mm speakers will also be non--mm
speakers, when the politeness needs are not relevant.  Sg/pl yall, if sg is
polite, would follow the same pattern, making the collection of data more
complex.  No one would ever be a consistent sg or pl yall person.  They
would always be both, but in different contexts.  Could this be a
Northern/Southern shiboleth?

Jim Stalker

James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 25 06:22:38 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 01:22:38 -0500
Subject: y'all redux
In-Reply-To: <E1D4Y9k-0000Qq-01@mx03.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.012238.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Inny y'all ever watch Dr. Phil? He's a fine example of a Southwestern
speaker. He's from Vinita, OK (not to be cofused with Vinita, MO),
originally, but he's lived in Texas for quite a while and uses a lot of
"y'all." He even uses "hit" for "it"! And there's also Katie Couric. I
can't say that I've ever heard her use y'all, but she uses "you-all"
with a fairly high degree of regularity. She's a native of (West?)
Virginia, I believe.

-Wilson


On Feb 25, 2005, at 12:22 AM, James C Stalker wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       James C Stalker <stalker at MSU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: y'all redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I stand corrected.  In thinking about the data problem, Mike
> Montgomery's
> article in Am Speech on multiple modals comes to mind.  He has a
> relatively
> limited range of data, all painstakingly collected from reported data
> over
> quite a span of time, but the data make a convincing case for mms being
> polite forms. Following on from there, mm speakers will also be non--mm
> speakers, when the politeness needs are not relevant.  Sg/pl yall, if
> sg is
> polite, would follow the same pattern, making the collection of data
> more
> complex.  No one would ever be a consistent sg or pl yall person.  They
> would always be both, but in different contexts.  Could this be a
> Northern/Southern shiboleth?
>
> Jim Stalker
>
> James C. Stalker
> Department of English
> Michigan State University
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 12:24:48 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 04:24:48 -0800
Subject: new coinage?
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.042448.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If a mule don't tow the line, you whack him one with a two-by-four.

That's how I always do it.

JL

Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: new coinage?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 2:14 PM -0800 2/24/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>I thought it was "tow" till I was in graduate school. On the Erie
>Canal, a "tow-lines" were hawsers aboard a canalboat which, hitched
>to one of a pair of mules (on the "tow-path") would enable them to
>tow the boat for some distance.
>
>So it's not an eggcorn, dammit. "Tow the mark" is an eggcorn !
>
>JL

But the way "tow the line" is used has nothing (obvious) to do with
tow-lines, and everything to do with staying under control, following
the rules, etc., the way a runner or diver does. The OED has (under
_toe_ (v.)):
=======
To touch or reach with the toes; chiefly in to toe a or the line,
mark, scratch, crack, trig, to stand with the tips of one's toes
exactly touching a line; to stand in a row; hence fig. to present
oneself in readiness for a race, contest, or undertaking; also, to
conform, esp. to the defined standard or platform of a party.
=======
How do we get from using tow-lines to towing a boat to this meaning
of conforming to regulations? (Not impossible, I grant, but less
obvious than toeing the line.)

Larry


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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 12:29:08 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 04:29:08 -0800
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.042908.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, Larry. "Shmog" in that context would have to rhyme with "dog."  But in any other context it wouldn't.

JL

Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 2:19 PM -0800 2/24/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Blog, clog, cog, flog, frog, Gog, grog, hog, jog, log, nog, tog, and
>wog all rhyme.

[and, in response to John Baker, JL observes that "Hog rhymes with
Prague. Dog rhymes with...nothing ! Hog and Prague have the vowel of
"car." Dog has the vowel of "saw" and "law."]

I proudly share Jon's vowels. The script-a of the above words also
shows up in "bog", "fog", and any coinages or acronyms of the form
C(n)og that might be constructed. If I were going to invent a pet
name for beef stroganoff, "Strog" would rhyme with "b(l)og" and not
"dog".

>Dog don't.

Here's a tricky one--"dog, shmog--what I want is a ferret!" I think
"shmog" has got to rhyme with "dog". Maybe it has to be spelled
"shmawg" for us dog-versus-world types, though.

larry



>"Dennis R. Preston"
wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>
>Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>You mean there are some of you guys who don't rhyme hogs and dogs! I
>knew y'all had different vowels in off and on, but this really pushes
>it.
>
>dInIs
>
>>At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:
>>>Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>>> The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
>>>> the alt.usage.english newsgroup. For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
>>>> and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
>>>> associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
>>>> or "raucous").
>>>
>>>This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb "rock", as
>>>in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of praise.
>>>
>>Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
>>google hits, mostly for Harleys and such). Then there's "dawg" which
>>I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
>>"dog" without any help. (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
>>At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
>>index a distinct pronunciation.
>>
>>Larry
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 13:26:01 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:26:01 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <20050225030731.76916.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.082601.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jonathon,

She musta moved down to where we talk good (and where
grapheme-phoneme correspondence is a helluva lot better) just to get
away from y'all.

dInIs

>Hog rhymes with Prague. Dog rhymes with...nothing !  Hog and Prague
>have the vowel of "car." Dog has the vowel of "saw" and "law."
>
>In the second grade a substitute teacher tried to convince us that
>"dog" should rhyme with "hog," "frog," etc.  We never saw her again.
>
>JL
>
>"Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Baker, John"
>Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Jonathan,
>
>It never occurred to me that dog and hog might not rhyme. Which word
>do you rhyme with Prague, and how do you pronounce the other word?
>
>John Baker
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 13:28:07 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:28:07 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <E1D4WKA-0001cv-7e@sys20.mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.082807.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I got little NC experience, but my KY life from darn close to Jim's
would have the crown top opener as the unmarked form.

dInIs



>My experience from KY and NC during the 50s and 60s agrees with Wilson's.
>Church keys opened beer cans (as well as other cans, like fruit juice cans,
>but those were unimportant) before they had pull tabs. The opening was
>triangular; the other end often had the rounded crown opener.  In fact,
>there were some fairly fancy ones intended to be attached to key chains.
>There is an obvious oxymoron here, but I wonder if the triangular shape is
>part of the metaphor?
>
>Jim Stalker
>
>Wilson Gray writes:
>
>>On Feb 24, 2005, at 8:02 PM, sagehen wrote:
>>
>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>-----------------------
>>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
>>>Subject:      Re: Church key anecdote
>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>--------
>>>
>>>>A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church
>>>>key"
>>>>as slang for a bottle opener.  I had never heard the word until I
>>>>went to
>>>>grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time.  Nonetheless
>>>>the
>>>>consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional
>>>>expression--a
>>>>judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.
>>>>
>>>>Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir
>>>>practice"
>>>>in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the
>>>>process of
>>>>organizing a game).  At some point I figured it was time for a beer,
>>>>and
>>>>finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
>>>>influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
>>>>practice), I asked him if he had a church key.  My question met with
>>>>blank
>>>>stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking
>>>>about.
>>>>So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement
>>>>that
>>>>the expression was unknown in the Northwest.  FWIW, all but one of the
>>>>seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in
>>>>the
>>>>NW.  One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went
>>>>to
>>>>Linfield.
>>>>
>>>>Peter Mc.
>>>  ~~~~~~~~~
>>>AFAIK, it was a widely-accepted term everywhere I've lived (Midwest,
>>>West,
>>>Northeast). It only applied to the specialized opener of crown caps, I
>>>think.  Not the kind that punches a triangular hole in a can top, or
>>>that
>>>pries with a little hook.When I was last a beer drinker (had to give
>>>it up
>>>because of allergy to malt) bottlers were using a kind of crown cap
>>>that
>>>could be unscrewed.  Maybe the church key has simply become obsolete?
>>>A. Murie
>>>
>>>A&M Murie
>>>N. Bangor NY
>>>sagehen at westelcom.com
>>>
>>
>>In my lost youth, "church key" referred specifically to the tool that
>>punched a triangular hole in a beer can. This was the case in St. Louis
>>in the 'Fifties, and 'Sixties. Some models were double-ended, with the
>>other end designed to open the crown caps of bottles. The suggestion
>>that this tool has been rendered obsolete by pull-tabs and twist-off
>>caps makes perfect sense to me.
>>
>>-Wilson Gray
>>
>
>
>
>James C. Stalker
>Department of English
>Michigan State University


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 13:31:25 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:31:25 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <20050225122908.89327.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.083125.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How bout "hog schmog--what I want is a peccary"?

dInIs (delighted by this foreign variation)

>Yes, Larry. "Shmog" in that context would have to rhyme with "dog."
>But in any other context it wouldn't.
>
>JL
>
>Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Laurence Horn
>Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>At 2:19 PM -0800 2/24/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>Blog, clog, cog, flog, frog, Gog, grog, hog, jog, log, nog, tog, and
>>wog all rhyme.
>
>[and, in response to John Baker, JL observes that "Hog rhymes with
>Prague. Dog rhymes with...nothing ! Hog and Prague have the vowel of
>"car." Dog has the vowel of "saw" and "law."]
>
>I proudly share Jon's vowels. The script-a of the above words also
>shows up in "bog", "fog", and any coinages or acronyms of the form
>C(n)og that might be constructed. If I were going to invent a pet
>name for beef stroganoff, "Strog" would rhyme with "b(l)og" and not
>"dog".
>
>>Dog don't.
>
>Here's a tricky one--"dog, shmog--what I want is a ferret!" I think
>"shmog" has got to rhyme with "dog". Maybe it has to be spelled
>"shmawg" for us dog-versus-world types, though.
>
>larry
>
>
>
>>"Dennis R. Preston"
>wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>>
>>Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>You mean there are some of you guys who don't rhyme hogs and dogs! I
>>knew y'all had different vowels in off and on, but this really pushes
>>it.
>>
>>dInIs
>>
>>>At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:
>>>>Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>>>>  The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
>>>>>  the alt.usage.english newsgroup. For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
>>>>>  and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
>>>>>  associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
>>>>>  or "raucous").
>>>>
>>>>This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb
>>>>"rock", as
>>>>in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of praise.
>>>>
>>>Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
>>>google hits, mostly for Harleys and such). Then there's "dawg" which
>>>I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
>>>"dog" without any help. (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
>>>At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
>>>index a distinct pronunciation.
>>>
>>>Larry
>>
>>
>>--
>>Dennis R. Preston
>>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>>A-740 Wells Hall
>>Michigan State University
>>East Lansing, MI 48824
>>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>>preston at msu.edu
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Feb 25 13:46:49 2005
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:46:49 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.084649.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
: At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:

:: This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb
:: "rock", as in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of
:: praise.

: Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
: google hits, mostly for Harleys and such).  Then there's "dawg" which
: I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
: "dog" without any help.  (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
: At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
: index a distinct pronunciation.

Provo (Utah) High School's mascot is the Bulldogs, and along the side of the
school is emblazoned "Go Dawgs!" However, this area has the cot-caught
merger.

My suspicion is that in this case (and likely others) it's imitation of the
Georgia Bulldogs, not an index of any particular pronunciation.

In a FWIW aside, i have the cot-caught distinction, and 'hog' and 'hawg' are
both pronounced the same for me. The <og> words are notoriously variable;
for me there's dog, hog, slog, fog, frog, and log (open-o) versus blog, pog,
cog, jog, toggle, and noggin (ah).

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 14:11:36 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:11:36 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <09c901c51b40$7b766220$f0fbaa84@BOWIE>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.091136.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David,

I always knew there was something I really liked about you. Now I
know what it is: your open oh/ah distribution before /g/ is exactly
the same as mine! Maybe I am not the last living speaker of Standard
American English (SAE 10-W-40, the norm) after all!

But, I wonder if the notorious variability you mention might not be
explained by a word frequency/early learning appeal. Every one of
your (and my) open oh words (hog, frog, dog, log...) is a relatively
high-frequency and early-learned word; every ah word is a relatively
low-frequency and later-learned word (jog, cog, blog...). In my case,
for example, since "smog" is right in the middle (middle frequency,
learned only a little earlier than some of the ah words), I don't
like either pronunciation.

How do you deal with some of the other historical open oh producers?
ah before /f/ is really hard for me to get, even in late learned
words (e.g., Hoffa). I remember a "Poff" family where I grew up, and
I think we ah-ed them, but it hits my ear funny even today.

dInIs




>From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>: At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:
>
>:: This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb
>:: "rock", as in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of
>:: praise.
>
>: Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
>: google hits, mostly for Harleys and such).  Then there's "dawg" which
>: I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
>: "dog" without any help.  (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
>: At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
>: index a distinct pronunciation.
>
>Provo (Utah) High School's mascot is the Bulldogs, and along the side of the
>school is emblazoned "Go Dawgs!" However, this area has the cot-caught
>merger.
>
>My suspicion is that in this case (and likely others) it's imitation of the
>Georgia Bulldogs, not an index of any particular pronunciation.
>
>In a FWIW aside, i have the cot-caught distinction, and 'hog' and 'hawg' are
>both pronounced the same for me. The <og> words are notoriously variable;
>for me there's dog, hog, slog, fog, frog, and log (open-o) versus blog, pog,
>cog, jog, toggle, and noggin (ah).
>
>David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
>     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
>     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
>     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 14:53:27 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:53:27 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <20050225122908.89327.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.095327.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:29 AM -0800 2/25/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Yes, Larry. "Shmog" in that context would have to rhyme with "dog."
>But in any other context it wouldn't.
>
>JL

Nice minimal pair:
"Dog shmog" [SmOg]  vs. "Smog shmog"  [Smag]

L


>
>Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>
>Here's a tricky one--"dog, shmog--what I want is a ferret!" I think
>"shmog" has got to rhyme with "dog". Maybe it has to be spelled
>"shmawg" for us dog-versus-world types, though.
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 14:59:34 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:59:34 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <09c901c51b40$7b766220$f0fbaa84@BOWIE>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.095934.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:46 AM -0500 2/25/05, David Bowie wrote:
>
>In a FWIW aside, i have the cot-caught distinction, and 'hog' and 'hawg' are
>both pronounced the same for me. The <og> words are notoriously variable;
>for me there's dog, hog, slog, fog, frog, and log (open-o) versus blog, pog,
>cog, jog, toggle, and noggin (ah).
>

Now *that's* weird.   ;-)

--Larry shm[ae]rry
[not to be confused with "Mary shm[e:]ry" or "merry shm[E]rry",
and wondering if this is discussed in the reduplication literature...]


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 15:24:16 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 07:24:16 -0800
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.072416.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Many New Yorkers notoriously have a vowel in "dog," "caught," etc., that is farther back than the "open-o" symbol usually suggests.

Despite this, when I personally demonstrate the phonemic difference between "cot" and "caught" for Southern undergrads most claim not to hear it, presumably because they don't make the distinction themselves. Most remain unable to transcribe the distinction correctly.

A well-known phenomenon, but it still impresses me.

Other contrasting pairs are "odd" & "awed," "mod" & "Maude," "Ol" [short for "Olivia"] & "all,"  "moll" & "maul," "Poll" & "Paul," "doll" & "Dall" [wild sheep of the Rockies]; and for less r-full speakers, "shod" & "shored," "hod" and "horde," "lard" & "lord," "r-full" and "awful."

JL

JL




David Bowie <db.list at PMPKN.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: David Bowie
Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Laurence Horn
: At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:

:: This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb
:: "rock", as in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of
:: praise.

: Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
: google hits, mostly for Harleys and such). Then there's "dawg" which
: I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
: "dog" without any help. (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
: At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
: index a distinct pronunciation.

Provo (Utah) High School's mascot is the Bulldogs, and along the side of the
school is emblazoned "Go Dawgs!" However, this area has the cot-caught
merger.

My suspicion is that in this case (and likely others) it's imitation of the
Georgia Bulldogs, not an index of any particular pronunciation.

In a FWIW aside, i have the cot-caught distinction, and 'hog' and 'hawg' are
both pronounced the same for me. The words are notoriously variable;
for me there's dog, hog, slog, fog, frog, and log (open-o) versus blog, pog,
cog, jog, toggle, and noggin (ah).

David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx
Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Sports -  Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 15:27:04 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 07:27:04 -0800
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.072704.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes !  "Shmog" vs. "shmog" !  Elegant !

I bet they couldn't match that in Middle English !

JL

Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 4:29 AM -0800 2/25/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Yes, Larry. "Shmog" in that context would have to rhyme with "dog."
>But in any other context it wouldn't.
>
>JL

Nice minimal pair:
"Dog shmog" [SmOg] vs. "Smog shmog" [Smag]

L


>
>Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>Here's a tricky one--"dog, shmog--what I want is a ferret!" I think
>"shmog" has got to rhyme with "dog". Maybe it has to be spelled
>"shmawg" for us dog-versus-world types, though.
>


---------------------------------
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From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Fri Feb 25 15:48:27 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:48:27 -0600
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <a06020401be44d8202ae5@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.094827.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would have to say that the unmarked form for me has both ends
(Cleveland, north of Boston, Phila, Milwaukee, Chicago). My current
use for it would be as a bottle opener; my more usual use for it as a
child in Cleveland would have been  as a can opener (I don't remember
drinking canned juice in Andover, MA). But the visual I have when I
ask for a church key has both ends.

Barbara

>I got little NC experience, but my KY life from darn close to Jim's
>would have the crown top opener as the unmarked form.
>
>dInIs
>
>
>>My experience from KY and NC during the 50s and 60s agrees with Wilson's.
>>Church keys opened beer cans (as well as other cans, like fruit juice cans,
>>but those were unimportant) before they had pull tabs. The opening was
>>triangular; the other end often had the rounded crown opener.  In fact,
>>there were some fairly fancy ones intended to be attached to key chains.
>>There is an obvious oxymoron here, but I wonder if the triangular shape is
>>part of the metaphor?
>>
>>Jim Stalker
>>
>>Wilson Gray writes:
>>
>>>On Feb 24, 2005, at 8:02 PM, sagehen wrote:
>>>
>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>-----------------------
>>>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
>>>>Subject:      Re: Church key anecdote
>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>--------
>>>>
>>>>>A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church
>>>>>key"
>>>>>as slang for a bottle opener.  I had never heard the word until I
>>>>>went to
>>>>>grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time.  Nonetheless
>>>>>the
>>>>>consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional
>>>>>expression--a
>>>>>judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.
>>>>>
>>>>>Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir
>>>>>practice"
>>>>>in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the
>>>>>process of
>>>>>organizing a game).  At some point I figured it was time for a beer,
>>>>>and
>>>>>finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
>>>>>influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
>>>>>practice), I asked him if he had a church key.  My question met with
>>>>>blank
>>>>>stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking
>>>>>about.
>>>>>So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement
>>>>>that
>>>>>the expression was unknown in the Northwest.  FWIW, all but one of the
>>>>>seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in
>>>>>the
>>>>>NW.  One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went
>>>>>to
>>>>>Linfield.
>>>>>
>>>>>Peter Mc.
>>>>  ~~~~~~~~~
>>>>AFAIK, it was a widely-accepted term everywhere I've lived (Midwest,
>>>>West,
>>>>Northeast). It only applied to the specialized opener of crown caps, I
>>>>think.  Not the kind that punches a triangular hole in a can top, or
>>>>that
>>>>pries with a little hook.When I was last a beer drinker (had to give
>>>>it up
>>>>because of allergy to malt) bottlers were using a kind of crown cap
>>>>that
>>>>could be unscrewed.  Maybe the church key has simply become obsolete?
>>>>A. Murie
>>>>
>>>>A&M Murie
>>>>N. Bangor NY
>>>>sagehen at westelcom.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>In my lost youth, "church key" referred specifically to the tool that
>>>punched a triangular hole in a beer can. This was the case in St. Louis
>>>in the 'Fifties, and 'Sixties. Some models were double-ended, with the
>>>other end designed to open the crown caps of bottles. The suggestion
>>>that this tool has been rendered obsolete by pull-tabs and twist-off
>>>caps makes perfect sense to me.
>>>
>>>-Wilson Gray
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>James C. Stalker
>>Department of English
>>Michigan State University
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 25 16:26:24 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:26:24 EST
Subject: dog, dag, daeg, dawg, doe-ug, etc.
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.112624.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm frankly puzzled by the certainty that people have about these -og words.
I would have to go back and listen to some of my old fieldwork tapes to know
WHAT I say, but I am pretty sure there is a lot of variability in my own speech
between [o] and [a] in most of the -og words--I speak with the tongue of a
sociolinguist, a little of this, a little of that, depending on where my tongue
happens to go (and maybe sometimes on the audience).

In a message dated 2/25/05 9:11:57 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes:


> David,
>
> I always knew there was something I really liked about you. Now I
> know what it is: your open oh/ah distribution before /g/ is exactly
> the same as mine! Maybe I am not the last living speaker of Standard
> American English (SAE 10-W-40, the norm) after all!
>
> But, I wonder if the notorious variability you mention might not be
> explained by a word frequency/early learning appeal. Every one of
> your (and my) open oh words (hog, frog, dog, log...) is a relatively
> high-frequency and early-learned word; every ah word is a relatively
> low-frequency and later-learned word (jog, cog, blog...). In my case,
> for example, since "smog" is right in the middle (middle frequency,
> learned only a little earlier than some of the ah words), I don't
> like either pronunciation.
>
> How do you deal with some of the other historical open oh producers?
> ah before /f/ is really hard for me to get, even in late learned
> words (e.g., Hoffa). I remember a "Poff" family where I grew up, and
> I think we ah-ed them, but it hits my ear funny even today.
>
> dInIs
>
>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 25 16:41:36 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:41:36 EST
Subject: church key 'beer-can opener' is obsolete
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.114136.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Why would one need an opener for a beer can? Today they are all self-opening, 
and have been for decades.

If people under 40 do not know the term, it seems likely that this is because 
the expression has died out because the word is no longer necessary. 
Moreover, in the context that mcgraw describes, even I, who recall the word fondly 
from my youth in Iowa, would have been quite uncertain what he was asking me for.


In a message dated 2/24/05 5:45:38 PM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes:


> A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church key"
> as slang for a bottle opener.  I had never heard the word until I went to
> grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time.  Nonetheless the
> consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional expression--a
> judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.
> 
> Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir practice"
> in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the process of
> organizing a game).  At some point I figured it was time for a beer, and
> finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
> influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
> practice), I asked him if he had a church key.  My question met with blank
> stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking about.
> So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement that
> the expression was unknown in the Northwest.  FWIW, all but one of the
> seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in the
> NW.  One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went to
> Linfield.
> 
> Peter Mc.
> 


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Feb 25 16:43:59 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:43:59 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <a06020400be44dff0ffe4@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.114359.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 dInIs writes:
>But, I wonder if the notorious variability you mention might not be
>explained by a word frequency/early learning appeal. Every one of
>your (and my) open oh words (hog, frog, dog, log...) is a relatively
>high-frequency and early-learned word; every ah word is a relatively
>low-frequency and later-learned word (jog, cog, blog...). In my case,
>for example, since "smog" is right in the middle (middle frequency,
>learned only a little earlier than some of the ah words), I don't
>like either pronunciation.
 ~~~~~~~~~
 Yup.  What you said.
A. Murie
(I know it wasn't addressed to me, but it happens to be just what I was
thinking.)


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Feb 25 17:01:03 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:01:03 -0800
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <p06020402be44f8b2a411@[128.135.198.250]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.090103.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Friday, February 25, 2005 9:48 AM -0600 Barbara Need
<nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU> wrote:

> I would have to say that the unmarked form for me has both ends
> (Cleveland, north of Boston, Phila, Milwaukee, Chicago). My current
> use for it would be as a bottle opener; my more usual use for it as a
> child in Cleveland would have been  as a can opener (I don't remember
> drinking canned juice in Andover, MA). But the visual I have when I
> ask for a church key has both ends.
>

Me, too.

In my original post I didn't mention what followed the blank looks I got.
When I explained that what I wanted was a beer bottle opener, I was handed
one of those corkscrews with little arms and a loop-shaped handle that can
also be used to open a bottle of beer.  I stared at it in confusion for a
moment, because I was still expecting a church key.  Contrary to what
appears to be popular belief, screw-off tops are far from universal.  For
some reason, at least the microbrews I drink come in bottles with tops that
still need to be pried off.  So while I rarely have a use for the pointed
end, I still use the rounded end to open beer bottles, and the church key
is still an everyday object in our house. I suspect lots of other people
around here use them, too, but apparently they don't call them church keys.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Feb 25 17:06:01 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:06:01 -0500
Subject: church key 'beer-can opener' is obsolete
In-Reply-To: <e3.df8170d.2f50af40@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.120601.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ron Butters asks:
>Why would one need an opener for a beer can? Today they are all self-opening,
>and have been for decades.
~~~~~~~~
If I must drink from a can I'd much rather it be opened by the old-style
triangular punch, which produces a reasonable facsimile of a lipped rim,
than by the self-opener that produces a round hole leaving a flange that
delivers dribbles.
A. Murie


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Feb 25 17:13:28 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:13:28 -0600
Subject: Church key anecdote
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.111328.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm pretty sure Stephen King uses the term in his novella, "The Body",
on which the movie "Stand by Me" was based.


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Fri Feb 25 17:31:38 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:31:38 -0600
Subject: church key 'beer-can opener' is obsolete
In-Reply-To: <e3.df8170d.2f50af40@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.113138.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Why would one need an opener for a beer can? Today they are all self-opening,
>and have been for decades.

But the same device can be used to open juice cans, and the last time
I checked (which was not THAT recently, maybe a year ago), you still
get a quart or so of fruit juice in cans with no other opening.
Without the pointed end of a church key, I use a can opener (the
rotary variety) to create the pouring hole and air in-take hole.

>If people under 40 do not know the term, it seems likely that this is because
>the expression has died out because the word is no longer necessary.

Except that the item still exists. I just asked two graduate students
(and another, I think he was an undergrad), if they knew what a
church key was. The two graduate students didn't know what the term
referred to, the other said it was a "very simple key" that opens
anything, "like a skeleton key". However, when I drew a very crude
picture of one (with both ends), both of the graduate students
recognized the item--like Larry's son, they know the denotatum, even
if they don't know the word (the undergrad had left before I was done
with my artistic efforts).

Barbara


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 25 17:32:06 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:32:06 EST
Subject: church key 'beer-can opener' is obsolete
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.123206.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/25/05 12:04:32 PM, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes:


> If I must drink from a can I'd much rather it be opened by the old-style
> triangular punch, which produces a reasonable facsimile of a lipped rim,
> than by the self-opener that produces a round hole leaving a flange that
> delivers dribbles.
> A. Murie
>

Flange? What flange? The modern pop-top is scientifically engineered NOT to
dribble!!!

But be that as it may, surely the number of people who feel this way about
the relative dribbileational merit of old-fashioned punched holes is too small
to keep alive a slang term such as CHRUCH KEY. Surely most people who are this
particular about their holes simply pour the beer into a glass rather thaqn go
to the trouble of finding a puch-style opener. Moreover, though I failed to
note this, the anecdote actually spoke of a beer bottle rather than a can.
Whether one twists the top off or opens the bottle with a tool, the hole stays the
same.

In my memory, the few times that I have tried to open a modern aluminum can
using the old-fashioned punch-type opener (i.e., when the pull-off tab was
defective), it did not work very well. The aluminum can was not designed to be
opened that way, and the lip tended to squash and bend before the hole got made
properly. The result was a hole that was much worse, dribblewise, than any
pre-conditioned pop-top hole could ever be.

At any rate, in my experience the term CHURCH KEY was used ironically among
youths from the sort of protestant backgrounds that looked askance at the use
of alcoholic beverages. It was most commonly used when consuming beer illegally
and furtively. The idea was to get the beer into your stomach as quickly and
bountifully as possible. It really didn't matter at all what the hole was
like. It seems unlikely that folks who worry about a little dribble would be
particularly drawn to what is essentially purile humor in labelling the implement
by means of which they open their beers.


From mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT  Fri Feb 25 17:34:38 2005
From: mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT (Amorelli)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:34:38 +0100
Subject: Unuses
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.183438.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Looks like an overdose of 'Newspeak' (cf. George Orwell's '1984', first
published in 1949!), although the Author's imagination did not extend to
rendering 'sight' semi(?)-phonetically.
M.I.Amorelli
Faculties of Law and Economics,
University of Sassari
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Keer" <edkeer at YAHOO.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 9:56 PM
Subject: Unuses


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Ed Keer <edkeer at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Unuses
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I have a friend who works at a well known news
> organization. He says that they use "unsite" and
> "unhave" as verbs in written communications about
> stories:
>
> "Unhave India-Tsunami, pls resend." means "I don't
> have the India-Tsunami story, please resend it."
>
> "Unsite" means something like, "I don't see..."
>
> I don't think anyone ever uses them when speaking, but
> these sound awful to me. Has anyone ever talked about
> this?
>
> Ed
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.3.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005
>
>



--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 25 17:39:16 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:39:16 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20church=20key=20'bee?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?r-can=20opener'=20is=20obsolete?=
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.123916.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/25/05 12:31:43 PM, nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes:


>
> Except that the item still exists. I just asked two graduate students
> (and another, I think he was an undergrad), if they knew what a
> church key was. The two graduate students didn't know what the term
> referred to, the other said it was a "very simple key" that opens
> anything, "like a skeleton key". However, when I drew a very crude
> picture of one (with both ends), both of the graduate students
> recognized the item--like Larry's son, they know the denotatum, even
> if they don't know the word (the undergrad had left before I was done
> with my artistic efforts).
>

Well, yeah, the punch-style can opener still exists (thought I doubt that
Paul Newman still wears one on a chain around his neck, as his wife once reported
that he did). It is just no longer very frequently referred to as a CHURCH
KEY, for the sociolinguistic reasons I outlined in my previous e-mail. The slang
term is obsolete. There must be other slang terms that are technologically
obsolete as well--maybe PLATTERS 'phonograph records'? ICE BOX 'refrigerator'?


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 25 17:41:38 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:41:38 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Church=20key=20anec?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?dote?=
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.124138.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/25/05 12:03:38 PM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes:


> I suspect lots of other people
> around here use them, too, but apparently they don't call them church keys.
>

Exactly my point. So the anecdote cannot be taken as evidence that the term
is/was geographically distributed.


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Feb 25 17:44:47 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:44:47 -0600
Subject: Church key anecdote
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.114447.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Current ebay lot # 6157169131
has 15 different church keys, of various sizes and shapes.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=566&item=61571691
31&rd=1


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 17:48:12 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:48:12 -0500
Subject: y'all redux
In-Reply-To: <da08f8d99859dbe4f8774405922722fa@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.124812.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Do Dr. Phil and Katie Couric use y'all/you all in the pl. or sing. or
both?  OK and (west?) TX, and WV (but probably not VA) might represent
"fuzzy boundary" usage of sing. y'all (and even you all?)--in either the
geographical sense I mentioned earlier or the politeness sense suggested by
Jim.

At 01:22 AM 2/25/2005, you wrote:
>Inny y'all ever watch Dr. Phil? He's a fine example of a Southwestern
>speaker. He's from Vinita, OK (not to be cofused with Vinita, MO),
>originally, but he's lived in Texas for quite a while and uses a lot of
>"y'all." He even uses "hit" for "it"! And there's also Katie Couric. I
>can't say that I've ever heard her use y'all, but she uses "you-all"
>with a fairly high degree of regularity. She's a native of (West?)
>Virginia, I believe.
>
>-Wilson
>
>
>On Feb 25, 2005, at 12:22 AM, James C Stalker wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       James C Stalker <stalker at MSU.EDU>
>>Subject:      Re: y'all redux
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>I stand corrected.  In thinking about the data problem, Mike
>>Montgomery's
>>article in Am Speech on multiple modals comes to mind.  He has a
>>relatively
>>limited range of data, all painstakingly collected from reported data
>>over
>>quite a span of time, but the data make a convincing case for mms being
>>polite forms. Following on from there, mm speakers will also be non--mm
>>speakers, when the politeness needs are not relevant.  Sg/pl yall, if
>>sg is
>>polite, would follow the same pattern, making the collection of data
>>more
>>complex.  No one would ever be a consistent sg or pl yall person.  They
>>would always be both, but in different contexts.  Could this be a
>>Northern/Southern shiboleth?
>>
>>Jim Stalker
>>
>>James C. Stalker
>>Department of English
>>Michigan State University


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 17:55:43 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:55:43 -0500
Subject: church key 'beer-can opener' is obsolete
In-Reply-To: <e3.df8170d.2f50af40@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.125543.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How many decades? I remember takin a damn screwdriver to a beer can
when I didn't have no church key.

dInIs



>Why would one need an opener for a beer can? Today they are all self-opening,
>and have been for decades.
>
>If people under 40 do not know the term, it seems likely that this is because
>the expression has died out because the word is no longer necessary.
>Moreover, in the context that mcgraw describes, even I, who recall
>the word fondly
>from my youth in Iowa, would have been quite uncertain what he was
>asking me for.
>
>
>In a message dated 2/24/05 5:45:38 PM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes:
>
>
>>  A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church key"
>>  as slang for a bottle opener.  I had never heard the word until I went to
>>  grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time.  Nonetheless the
>>  consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional expression--a
>>  judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.
>>
>>  Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir practice"
>>  in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the process of
>>  organizing a game).  At some point I figured it was time for a beer, and
>>  finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
>>  influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
>>  practice), I asked him if he had a church key.  My question met with blank
>>  stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking about.
>>  So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement that
>>  the expression was unknown in the Northwest.  FWIW, all but one of the
>>  seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in the
>>  NW.  One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went to
>>  Linfield.
>>
>>  Peter Mc.
>>


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 17:57:23 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:57:23 -0500
Subject: church key 'beer-can opener' is obsolete
In-Reply-To: <l03130305be45082d329a@[12.107.140.117]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.125723.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And a tab which catches in your moustache and pulls the danged hairs out!

dInIs

>Ron Butters asks:
>>Why would one need an opener for a beer can? Today they are all self-opening,
>>and have been for decades.
>~~~~~~~~
>If I must drink from a can I'd much rather it be opened by the old-style
>triangular punch, which produces a reasonable facsimile of a lipped rim,
>than by the self-opener that produces a round hole leaving a flange that
>delivers dribbles.
>A. Murie


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Fri Feb 25 17:50:06 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:50:06 -0600
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1109322063@[10.218.201.228]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.115006.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Contrary to what appears to be popular belief, screw-off tops are
>far from universal.  For some reason, at least the microbrews I
>drink come in bottles with tops that still need to be pried off.

[stuff deleted]

>Peter Mc.

Well, and screw-off tops are often very hard to GET off! They still
have the crimping around the edges and I find a church key (or other
bottle opener) still the best way to get the tops off beer and soda
(pop, soda pop, tonic, soft drink) bottles.

Barbara


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 18:02:08 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:02:08 -0500
Subject: church key 'beer-can opener' is obsolete
In-Reply-To: <199.39a24dd0.2f50bb16@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.130208.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Damn you Butters! If you're gong to call us old protestant boys
"purile" you'd better spell it right.

dInIs (whose boys may already be out lookin fer you)

>In a message dated 2/25/05 12:04:32 PM, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes:
>
>
>>  If I must drink from a can I'd much rather it be opened by the old-style
>>  triangular punch, which produces a reasonable facsimile of a lipped rim,
>>  than by the self-opener that produces a round hole leaving a flange that
>>  delivers dribbles.
>>  A. Murie
>>
>
>Flange? What flange? The modern pop-top is scientifically engineered NOT to
>dribble!!!
>
>But be that as it may, surely the number of people who feel this way about
>the relative dribbileational merit of old-fashioned punched holes is too small
>to keep alive a slang term such as CHRUCH KEY. Surely most people who are this
>particular about their holes simply pour the beer into a glass rather thaqn go
>to the trouble of finding a puch-style opener. Moreover, though I failed to
>note this, the anecdote actually spoke of a beer bottle rather than a can.
>Whether one twists the top off or opens the bottle with a tool, the
>hole stays the
>same.
>
>In my memory, the few times that I have tried to open a modern aluminum can
>using the old-fashioned punch-type opener (i.e., when the pull-off tab was
>defective), it did not work very well. The aluminum can was not designed to be
>opened that way, and the lip tended to squash and bend before the
>hole got made
>properly. The result was a hole that was much worse, dribblewise, than any
>pre-conditioned pop-top hole could ever be.
>
>At any rate, in my experience the term CHURCH KEY was used ironically among
>youths from the sort of protestant backgrounds that looked askance at the use
>of alcoholic beverages. It was most commonly used when consuming
>beer illegally
>and furtively. The idea was to get the beer into your stomach as quickly and
>bountifully as possible. It really didn't matter at all what the hole was
>like. It seems unlikely that folks who worry about a little dribble would be
>particularly drawn to what is essentially purile humor in labelling
>the implement
>by means of which they open their beers.


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 25 18:04:52 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:04:52 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20church=20key=20'bee?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?r-can=20opener'=20is=20obsolete?=
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.130452.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/25/05 1:03:09 PM, preston at MSU.EDU writes:


> Damn you Butters! If you're gong to call us old protestant boys
> "purile" you'd better spell it right.
>

The spelling is variable, like everything else.


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 18:07:00 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:07:00 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <p06020409be45119378dd@[128.135.198.250]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.130700.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Do y'all remember the brief popularity of twist-off tops? Some are
still around. They were not screw off (which even some wines that
cost more than 2.99 are coming to); they looked just like crown tops,
and you had to know which was which. I memebr reamin out a nice
bloody circle oncet by grabbin what I thought was a twistoff and
twistin too hard.

dInIs (didn't leave no scar, dangit; woulda been a nice badge of honor)

>>Contrary to what appears to be popular belief, screw-off tops are
>>far from universal.  For some reason, at least the microbrews I
>>drink come in bottles with tops that still need to be pried off.
>
>[stuff deleted]
>
>>Peter Mc.
>
>Well, and screw-off tops are often very hard to GET off! They still
>have the crimping around the edges and I find a church key (or other
>bottle opener) still the best way to get the tops off beer and soda
>(pop, soda pop, tonic, soft drink) bottles.
>
>Barbara


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 18:08:42 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:08:42 -0500
Subject: church key 'bee               r-can opener' is obsolete
In-Reply-To: <fa.da5acdb.2f50c2c4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.130842.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bah! Variability. The excuse of those who lack the decency (or
industry) to acquire the Standard Language.

dInIs

>In a message dated 2/25/05 1:03:09 PM, preston at MSU.EDU writes:
>
>
>>  Damn you Butters! If you're gong to call us old protestant boys
>>  "purile" you'd better spell it right.
>>
>
>The spelling is variable, like everything else.


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 25 18:11:22 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:11:22 EST
Subject: purile
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.131122.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/25/05 1:09:29 PM, preston at MSU.EDU writes:


> Bah! Variability. The excuse of those who lack the decency (or
> industry) to acquire the Standard Language.
>
> dInIs
>
I guess IK thought that puerile was derived from pure.


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Fri Feb 25 19:24:00 2005
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:24:00 -0500
Subject: Church key in NW
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1109322063@[10.218.201.228]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.142400.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm Northwest born (Oregon) and raised (Washington) and I know the term
church key. It might be an age thing: I'm in my early forties, and I often
find that I have a completely different slang subset from people who were
raised in the same area but are 35 or younger.
Wendalyn


>[deleted exchange]
>I suspect lots of other people around here use them, too, but apparently
>they don't call them church keys.
>
>Peter Mc.
>
>*****************************************************************
>Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Fri Feb 25 19:44:37 2005
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:44:37 -0600
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <p06020402be44f8b2a411@[128.135.198.250]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.134437.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Since childhood, a "church key" has had two ends -- one to punch holes
in juice cans and the other to pop off the crown caps of soda and/or
beer bottles. In fact, here on the Gulf Coast, I wouldn't know another
automatic term for that handy little device.  ;-)

sally donlon


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Fri Feb 25 20:16:13 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:16:13 -0600
Subject: obsolescence; was Re: Re: church key 'beer-can opener' is obsolete
In-Reply-To: <192.3a6757f2.2f50bcc4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.141613.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In a message dated 2/25/05 12:31:43 PM, nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes:
>
>
>>
>>  Except that the item still exists. I just asked two graduate students
>>  (and another, I think he was an undergrad), if they knew what a
>>  church key was. The two graduate students didn't know what the term
>>  referred to, the other said it was a "very simple key" that opens
>>  anything, "like a skeleton key". However, when I drew a very crude
>>  picture of one (with both ends), both of the graduate students
>>  recognized the item--like Larry's son, they know the denotatum, even
>>  if they don't know the word (the undergrad had left before I was done
>>  with my artistic efforts).
>>
>
>Well, yeah, the punch-style can opener still exists (thought I doubt that
>Paul Newman still wears one on a chain around his neck, as his wife
>once reported that he did). It is just no longer very frequently
>referred to as a CHURCH KEY, for the sociolinguistic reasons I
>outlined in my previous e-mail. The slang term is obsolete. There
>must be other slang terms that are technologically obsolete as
>well--maybe PLATTERS 'phonograph records'? ICE BOX 'refrigerator'?

When does a word (phrase, term, what-have-you) become obsolete? I
mean, what makes it obsolete instead of rare or dialectal? I would
have thought it was when that item is not part of the vocabulary of
any speaker of a language (dialect, etc.). Since we have clear
evidence it is part of the vocabulary of a number of speakers on this
list, I would not call the term church key obsolete. Obsolescent,
maybe (unless we can revive its usage).

Barbara


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 25 20:54:00 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:54:00 EST
Subject: obsolescence vs. obsoleteness
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.155400.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/25/05 3:16:45 PM, nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes:


> When does a word (phrase, term, what-have-you) become obsolete? I
> mean, what makes it obsolete instead of rare or dialectal? I would
> have thought it was when that item is not part of the vocabulary of
> any speaker of a language (dialect, etc.). Since we have clear
> evidence it is part of the vocabulary of a number of speakers on this
> list, I would not call the term church key obsolete. Obsolescent,
> maybe (unless we can revive its usage).
>
I agree. I used the term "obsolete" a bit too loosely. Clearly, CHURCH KEY is
not totally obsolete--some people are still alive who use the term. However,
the evidence given here seems thus far to indicate that its use is more and
more confined to older persons, which, coupled with the fact that the pragmatic
conditions under which it was originally used have greatly altered, indicate
that it is well on its way towards becoming obsolete.

None of the evidence thus far given (at least in this round of discussion)
indicates that CHURCH KEY is "dialectal" (i.e., regionally limited in
distribution, or confined to a particular social class).

The e-Bay data that someone pointed us towards is quite interesting. Though I
did not look at all of the things offered for sale as "church keys," the
first few in the list that I saw were either true keys to churches or else bottle
openers, as opposed to punch-type openers, and appeared to be quite old. They
also actually look more like true keys than do the punch-type openers. They
were also identified with particular brands of beer. This suggests that CHURCH
KEY remains alive among collectors of beer paraphernalia as a kind of archaic
jargon.

As a youth, I would not have called anything a CHURCH KEY that didn't
primarily punch holes. But then I came of age at a time when bottled beer was less
common (outside bars) than canned beer.


From prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 21:17:17 2005
From: prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM (howard schrager)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:17:17 -0800
Subject: Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.131717.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Alice
Thanks for responding. It appears the saying was strong in New York in the twenties. The Chicken in the Car saying appeared in the movie A River Runs Through back in the 90's. It was spoken by a letter carrier in Montana.
Yours, Howard Schrager

Alice Faber <faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Alice Faber
Organization: Haskins Laboratories
Subject: Re: Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

howard schrager wrote:
> I want to ask one more time if anyone knows specifics about the origins of the street rhymes: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork, that's the way to say New York, and Chicken in the Car and the Car Can't go, that's the way to say Chicago. My father learned them in the 20's on the streets of Philadelphia and/or New York.

I heard those from my father (both of them); he would have learned them
in NY, in the 20s. At that time, he might have still been living in the
Bronx, though he spent most of his childhood in Brooklyn (Bensonhurst).

--

Alice Faber

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 21:20:46 2005
From: prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM (howard schrager)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:20:46 -0800
Subject: Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.132046.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you Doug. 1915 is as far back as I've heard.
Howard Schrager

"Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
Subject: Re: Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>I want to ask one more time if anyone knows specifics about the origins of
>the street rhymes: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork, that's the
>way to say New York, and Chicken in the Car and the Car Can't go, that's
>the way to say Chicago. My father learned them in the 20's on the streets
>of Philadelphia and/or New York.

I've seen several of these somewhere but I can't remember where. I surely
don't know anything about the origins.

The New York rhyme can be found from 1915 as a rebus (at N'archive). I
don't know whether that's early enough to be interesting.

-- Doug Wilson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 25 21:37:37 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:37:37 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <E1D4jWL-00040q-00@mx07.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.163737.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was just going to ask that: wadn't it more than one kind of a church
key? In order to be defined as a church key, one end of the tool had to
have a doodad that punched a triangular hole into the end of a beer
can. The other end of the tool could be "blank," so to speak, or it
could have one of at least three kinds of crown-cap openers. There was
a kind of roughly circular or triangular shape that lifted off the cap
without obviously damaging it, leaving the impression that the cap
could be re-cycled. (It couldn't be.) Then there was a kind of hook-ish
shape that tended to slip off the crown cap, making it a pain to use,
and which definitely bent the crown cap out of shape. Then there was a
third shape that's even harder to describe, but I'm sure that the more
mature of us know what I mean. This also bent the cap out of shape.

-Wilson

(Just heard a trash-TV guest say about her ex, "He comes across as all
swah-VAY and everything.")

On Feb 25, 2005, at 12:44 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject:      Re: Church key anecdote
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Current ebay lot # 6157169131
> has 15 different church keys, of various sizes and shapes.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
> ViewItem&category=566&item=61571691
> 31&rd=1
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 25 22:03:29 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:03:29 -0500
Subject: y'all redux
In-Reply-To: <3rjp4a$83e1gg@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.170329.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, I was thinking that y'all could listen to them and make up y'all
own minds, since y'all know where I stand on this issue. I think that
Phillip McGraw now lives in Dallas, but I don't know whether he grew up
there or just moved there after becoming Dr. Phil. Also, I'm merely
offering Phil and Katie as random examples of native "y'all/you-all"
speakers. I'm not suggesting that either of them will necessarily
provide any evidence in support of my point of view.

-Wilson

On Feb 25, 2005, at 12:48 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: y'all redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Do Dr. Phil and Katie Couric use y'all/you all in the pl. or sing. or
> both?  OK and (west?) TX, and WV (but probably not VA) might represent
> "fuzzy boundary" usage of sing. y'all (and even you all?)--in either
> the
> geographical sense I mentioned earlier or the politeness sense
> suggested by
> Jim.
>
> At 01:22 AM 2/25/2005, you wrote:
>> Inny y'all ever watch Dr. Phil? He's a fine example of a Southwestern
>> speaker. He's from Vinita, OK (not to be cofused with Vinita, MO),
>> originally, but he's lived in Texas for quite a while and uses a lot
>> of
>> "y'all." He even uses "hit" for "it"! And there's also Katie Couric. I
>> can't say that I've ever heard her use y'all, but she uses "you-all"
>> with a fairly high degree of regularity. She's a native of (West?)
>> Virginia, I believe.
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>>
>> On Feb 25, 2005, at 12:22 AM, James C Stalker wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       James C Stalker <stalker at MSU.EDU>
>>> Subject:      Re: y'all redux
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> I stand corrected.  In thinking about the data problem, Mike
>>> Montgomery's
>>> article in Am Speech on multiple modals comes to mind.  He has a
>>> relatively
>>> limited range of data, all painstakingly collected from reported data
>>> over
>>> quite a span of time, but the data make a convincing case for mms
>>> being
>>> polite forms. Following on from there, mm speakers will also be
>>> non--mm
>>> speakers, when the politeness needs are not relevant.  Sg/pl yall, if
>>> sg is
>>> polite, would follow the same pattern, making the collection of data
>>> more
>>> complex.  No one would ever be a consistent sg or pl yall person.
>>> They
>>> would always be both, but in different contexts.  Could this be a
>>> Northern/Southern shiboleth?
>>>
>>> Jim Stalker
>>>
>>> James C. Stalker
>>> Department of English
>>> Michigan State University
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 25 22:04:02 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:04:02 -0500
Subject: GOLF (Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.170402.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greetings again from Casa de Campo, a golf resort in the Dominican Republic.

My sister just told me the origin of GOLF, from the above. She's sure it's true. She read it on a Snapple bottletop!

Ugh. Does anyone know when this started? It doesn't seem to be on Newspaperarchive.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Feb 25 22:04:56 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:04:56 -0500
Subject: GOLF (Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden)
In-Reply-To: <0DA3C423.08FD5ED1.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.170456.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Feb 25, 2005 at 05:04:02PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> Greetings again from Casa de Campo, a golf resort in the Dominican Republic.
>
> My sister just told me the origin of GOLF, from the above. She's sure it's true. She read it on a Snapple bottletop!
>
> Ugh. Does anyone know when this started? It doesn't seem to be on Newspaperarchive.

It's quite widespread. I hear it all the time.

Jesse Sheidlower


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Fri Feb 25 22:44:44 2005
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:44:44 -0600
Subject: time machine=ATM
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.164444.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had a student report the following to me today:

>Greg,
>i was working at the hotel today and for the first time someone asked
>me where the time machine was, she referred to the atm as the time
>machine.
>
>-Jeri
--
-
Gregory J. Pulliam
Lewis Department of Humanities
218 Siegel Hall/3301 South Dearborn
Illinois Institute of Technology
Chicago, IL   60616

312.567.7968 or 312.567.3465

pulliam at iit.edu
http://www.iit.edu/~gpulliam


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Fri Feb 25 22:55:24 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:55:24 -0600
Subject: time machine=ATM
In-Reply-To: <p0621020ebe455a5b385d@[192.168.11.2]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.165524.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I had a student report the following to me today:
>
>>Greg,
>>i was working at the hotel today and for the first time someone asked
>>me where the time machine was, she referred to the atm as the time
>>machine.
>>
>>-Jeri
>--
>-
>Gregory J. Pulliam

Where is she from? When I lived in Milwaukee (82-84) and was first
using ATMs, the system available to me was a TYME machine (I don't
remember what that stood for). It was something else, when I came to
Chicago (different banks). You (all) may or may not not remember that
you didn't used to be able to use your ATM card in other networks (or
even in other places)! Now I have not doubt that the ATM I put my
card in will recognize it (even if there are OTHER problems with
getting my money).

Barbara


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 23:18:13 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:18:13 -0800
Subject: church key 'bee              r-can opener' is obsolete
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.151813.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A Google search reveals roughly 5,000 hits for "church-key" + "beer-can" and "church-key" +
"bottle-opener."

Obsolete or obsolescent ?

Or neither ?

JL

RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20church=20key=20'bee?
= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?r-can=20opener'=20is=20obsolete?=
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a message dated 2/25/05 12:31:43 PM, nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes:


>
> Except that the item still exists. I just asked two graduate students
> (and another, I think he was an undergrad), if they knew what a
> church key was. The two graduate students didn't know what the term
> referred to, the other said it was a "very simple key" that opens
> anything, "like a skeleton key". However, when I drew a very crude
> picture of one (with both ends), both of the graduate students
> recognized the item--like Larry's son, they know the denotatum, even
> if they don't know the word (the undergrad had left before I was done
> with my artistic efforts).
>

Well, yeah, the punch-style can opener still exists (thought I doubt that
Paul Newman still wears one on a chain around his neck, as his wife once reported
that he did). It is just no longer very frequently referred to as a CHURCH
KEY, for the sociolinguistic reasons I outlined in my previous e-mail. The slang
term is obsolete. There must be other slang terms that are technologically
obsolete as well--maybe PLATTERS 'phonograph records'? ICE BOX 'refrigerator'?


---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 23:21:31 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:21:31 -0800
Subject: Church key anecdote
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.152131.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In my experience it can be either a can- or a bottle-opener, so long as the substance to be got at is some form of beer.

JL


Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Church key anecdote
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was just going to ask that: wadn't it more than one kind of a church
key? In order to be defined as a church key, one end of the tool had to
have a doodad that punched a triangular hole into the end of a beer
can. The other end of the tool could be "blank," so to speak, or it
could have one of at least three kinds of crown-cap openers. There was
a kind of roughly circular or triangular shape that lifted off the cap
without obviously damaging it, leaving the impression that the cap
could be re-cycled. (It couldn't be.) Then there was a kind of hook-ish
shape that tended to slip off the crown cap, making it a pain to use,
and which definitely bent the crown cap out of shape. Then there was a
third shape that's even harder to describe, but I'm sure that the more
mature of us know what I mean. This also bent the cap out of shape.

-Wilson

(Just heard a trash-TV guest say about her ex, "He comes across as all
swah-VAY and everything.")

On Feb 25, 2005, at 12:44 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
> Subject: Re: Church key anecdote
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Current ebay lot # 6157169131
> has 15 different church keys, of various sizes and shapes.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
> ViewItem&category=566&item=61571691
> 31&rd=1
>


---------------------------------
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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 23:41:50 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:41:50 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <p06020409be45119378dd@[128.135.198.250]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.184150.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:50 AM -0600 2/25/05, Barbara Need wrote:
>>Contrary to what appears to be popular belief, screw-off tops are
>>far from universal.  For some reason,

I submit the reason is that this property places them in a natural
class with European brews, in which class they basically belong by
intrinsic considerations (and certainly by budgetary ones).  It's
something like an analogue of cork-bottled vs. screw-top wines,
although the analogy isn't precise.

>>at least the microbrews I
>>drink come in bottles with tops that still need to be pried off.
>
>[stuff deleted]
>
>>Peter Mc.
>
>Well, and screw-off tops are often very hard to GET off! They still
>have the crimping around the edges and I find a church key (or other
>bottle opener) still the best way to get the tops off beer and soda
>(pop, soda pop, tonic, soft drink) bottles.

True, although there's a marginal argument for unscrewing them (if
they do unscrew), which is that it's easier to screw the top back on
if you don't finish the contents at one sitting.

larry


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 23:47:52 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:47:52 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <p04320400be45675316be@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.184752.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No, you cannot screw the top back on; wine and beer go flat. With
wine you can use something like Vacuvin to pump the air out; never
tried it with beer, but then I'm a wino.

dInIs



>At 11:50 AM -0600 2/25/05, Barbara Need wrote:
>>>Contrary to what appears to be popular belief, screw-off tops are
>>>far from universal.  For some reason,
>
>I submit the reason is that this property places them in a natural
>class with European brews, in which class they basically belong by
>intrinsic considerations (and certainly by budgetary ones).  It's
>something like an analogue of cork-bottled vs. screw-top wines,
>although the analogy isn't precise.
>
>>>at least the microbrews I
>>>drink come in bottles with tops that still need to be pried off.
>>
>>[stuff deleted]
>>
>>>Peter Mc.
>>
>>Well, and screw-off tops are often very hard to GET off! They still
>>have the crimping around the edges and I find a church key (or other
>>bottle opener) still the best way to get the tops off beer and soda
>>(pop, soda pop, tonic, soft drink) bottles.
>
>True, although there's a marginal argument for unscrewing them (if
>they do unscrew), which is that it's easier to screw the top back on
>if you don't finish the contents at one sitting.
>
>larry


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 23:57:15 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:57:15 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA7CD@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.185715.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:44 AM -0600 2/25/05, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>Current ebay lot # 6157169131
>has 15 different church keys, of various sizes and shapes.
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=566&item=61571691
>31&rd=1

At 11:40 or so in this display is a CK much like the one I ended up
buying to replace the several CKs we have that were all in hiding at
the time.  (The ones with the three-dimensional bottle opener on the
other side of the triangle are also the most useful device I've come
across for prying up the metal lids of certain imported jars, like
the ones mole poblano comes in; the flat kind of bottle openers,
several of which are pictured here, are totally useless for that
task.)  What makes this particular variant a curiosity (to me) is
that printed on the white plastic connector (on the obverse side from
a very handy refrigerator magnet) are block letters at each end
reading BOTTLES and CANS respectively.  In the old days, no labels
were needed.  Next, there will be a set of instructions for use.
("Place protruding flange of triangular device against lid of can,
apply pressure at a 90 degree angle...")

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 23:58:50 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:58:50 -0500
Subject: GOLF (Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden)
In-Reply-To: <20050225220456.GA22227@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.185850.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:04 PM -0500 2/25/05, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Fri, Feb 25, 2005 at 05:04:02PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>>  Greetings again from Casa de Campo, a golf resort in the Dominican Republic.
>>
>>  My sister just told me the origin of GOLF, from the above. She's
>>sure it's true. She read it on a Snapple bottletop!
>>
>>  Ugh. Does anyone know when this started? It doesn't seem to be on
>>Newspaperarchive.
>
>It's quite widespread. I hear it all the time.
>
>Jesse Sheidlower

Perhaps Michael Quinion covers that in his "POSH" book.  It's from
the same tradition of faux acronymy.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 26 00:00:16 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:00:16 -0500
Subject: time machine=ATM
In-Reply-To: <p0602040bbe455c910cc0@[128.135.198.250]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.190016.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:55 PM -0600 2/25/05, Barbara Need wrote:
>>I had a student report the following to me today:
>>
>>>Greg,
>>>i was working at the hotel today and for the first time someone asked
>>>me where the time machine was, she referred to the atm as the time
>>>machine.
>>>
>>>-Jeri
>>--
>>-
>>Gregory J. Pulliam
>
>Where is she from? When I lived in Milwaukee (82-84) and was first
>using ATMs, the system available to me was a TYME machine (I don't
>remember what that stood for).

"Take Your Money Everywhere".

(We had them in Madison in the late 1970s.)

>  It was something else, when I came to
>Chicago (different banks). You (all) may or may not not remember that
>you didn't used to be able to use your ATM card in other networks (or
>even in other places)! Now I have not doubt that the ATM I put my
>card in will recognize it (even if there are OTHER problems with
>getting my money).
>
>Barbara


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Sat Feb 26 00:04:05 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:04:05 -0800
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <p04320402be4569418aec@[130.132.231.149]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.160405.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Friday, February 25, 2005 6:57 PM -0500 Laurence Horn
<laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:

>  Next, there will be a set of instructions for use.
> ("Place protruding flange of triangular device against lid of can,
> apply pressure at a 90 degree angle...")


No, no, Larry--next there will be a page of dire WARNING!s (marked by
triangular yellow traffic-type signs containing a large exclamation point)
about the many creative ways you could injure yourself through improper
use, admonitions not to swallow the opener or use it to pull your own
teeth, remove ear wax, etc.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 26 00:27:31 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:27:31 -0500
Subject: Unuses
In-Reply-To: <002601c51b60$48c1d4c0$0201a8c0@ufficiobx6kaeg>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.192731.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:34 PM +0100 2/25/05, Amorelli wrote:
>Looks like an overdose of 'Newspeak' (cf. George Orwell's '1984', first
>published in 1949!), although the Author's imagination did not extend to
>rendering 'sight' semi(?)-phonetically.
>M.I.Amorelli
>Faculties of Law and Economics,
>University of Sassari

I'm pretty sure Newspeak only generalizes "un-" for adjectives, where
it is used productively to replace "negative" contraries:  "ungood"
for "bad", "unstrong" for "weak", "doubleplusungood" for "very bad",
etc.  Curiously, although I'm not sure Orwell was aware of it,
Newspeak in this respect precisely mirrors earlier stages of English:
================
There is...considerable restriction in the use of un- with short
simple adjectives of native origin, the negative of these being
naturally supplied by another simple word of an opposite
signification.  There is thus little or no tendency now to employ
such forms as unbroad, undeep, unwide, unbold, unglad, ungood,
unstrong, unwhole, [etc.] which freely occur in the older language.
(OED, un- 1, 7; the same general asymmetry (described by Jespersen,
Zimmer, and others) evidently obtained in the "older language" as in
Newspeak in that no adjectives of the form "unbad", "unweak",
"unnarrow" are attested.)

But I'm pretty sure Orwell didn't generalize this to verbs.  On the
other hand, earlier English--through Middle and Early Modern
Eng.--lacked the aspectual constraint on un-verbs we now do, so it in
fact allowed verbs like "unbe", "unbetide" ('not to happen'),
"untrusten", "uncomprehend", "unbecome".  There's apparently no
"unhave" as such--but the OED does include one nonce occurrence of
"unhaving" coupled with "unknowing":

1449 PECOCK Repr. I. xvi. 89 For harme which y haue knowen come bi
defaut and the vnhauying and the vnknowing of this..consideracioun.

But I have to admit that the replacement of "lack" with "unhave", as
below, does seem to be in the spirit if not the letter of Newspeak.

Larry

P.S.  There are a handful of cites for "unsee", but it's not like the
"unsite" below, a simple 'not to see', but rather the standard
change-of-state meaning we get with modern "unwrap", "unsay",
"unhappen":

1865 J. GROTE Explor. Philos. I. 243 We cannot unsee the prospect before us.
1871 KINGSLEY At Last xvii, At last we had seen it; and we could not unsee it.

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ed Keer" <edkeer at YAHOO.COM>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 9:56 PM
>Subject: Unuses
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>header -----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Ed Keer <edkeer at YAHOO.COM>
>>Subject:      Unuses
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>I have a friend who works at a well known news
>>organization. He says that they use "unsite" and
>>"unhave" as verbs in written communications about
>>stories:
>>
>>"Unhave India-Tsunami, pls resend." means "I don't
>>have the India-Tsunami story, please resend it."
>>
>>"Unsite" means something like, "I don't see..."
>>
>>I don't think anyone ever uses them when speaking, but
>>these sound awful to me. Has anyone ever talked about
>>this?
>>
>>Ed
>>
>>
>>
>>__________________________________
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>>http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.3.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005
>>
>
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 26 00:33:00 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:33:00 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <a06020400be45694b7522@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.193300.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:47 PM -0500 2/25/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>No, you cannot screw the top back on; wine and beer go flat.

Not in three hours, though.  Trust me on that.

and at 4:04 PM -0800 2/25/05, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>>  Next, there will be a set of instructions for use.
>>("Place protruding flange of triangular device against lid of can,
>>apply pressure at a 90 degree angle...")
>
>No, no, Larry--next there will be a page of dire WARNING!s (marked by
>triangular yellow traffic-type signs containing a large exclamation point)
>about the many creative ways you could injure yourself through improper
>use, admonitions not to swallow the opener or use it to pull your own
>teeth, remove ear wax, etc.
>
...or to attempt to gain illegal entry into houses of worship.
And a disclaimer to the effect that the manufacturer is not liable
for any injuries incurred by using object as sex toy, etc.

L


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Feb 26 01:30:36 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:30:36 -0800
Subject: GOLF (Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden)
In-Reply-To: <p04320403be456c073194@[130.132.231.149]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.173036.0800.>

> Perhaps Michael Quinion covers that in his "POSH" book.  It's from
> the same tradition of faux acronymy.

I debunk it in "Word Myths." I couldn't find anything on the origin of the
myth, though. It's been around for a long time.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Sat Feb 26 01:55:33 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:55:33 -0600
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <p04320400be45675316be@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.195533.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>Well, and screw-off tops are often very hard to GET off! They still
>>have the crimping around the edges and I find a church key (or other
>>bottle opener) still the best way to get the tops off beer and soda
>>(pop, soda pop, tonic, soft drink) bottles.
>
>True, although there's a marginal argument for unscrewing them (if
>they do unscrew), which is that it's easier to screw the top back on
>if you don't finish the contents at one sitting.

True enough. However, I have managed to replace bottle caps pried
off. I don't actually HAVE a church key, but the bottle openers I use
don't deform the cap that badly.

Barbara


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Sat Feb 26 02:44:46 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:44:46 -0500
Subject: obsolescene [was church key]
In-Reply-To: <cd34ece00f90a9c27a8b8b8fa0c01d99@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.214446.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        The “ice box” example opens some interesting connections among
language, metaphor, and technology.  When I was young, we had an ice box.
My father would bring home blocks of ice and place them in the appropriate
compartment, and replace the ice as necessary.  When we had an electric
machine that manufactured its own ice, I, of course, still called it an ice
box.  That’s what it was. How the ice got in it was immaterial.  In time
brand names (Frigidare) or generic labels based on function (refrigerator)
replaced ice box, just because more people used those terms.  The original
named object has been replaced by other versions, and has become a box that
makes ice rather than a box that holds ice, apparently, a significant shift.
The term has, for the most part, disappeared, although, denotatively, it
needn’t have.  It is still an ice box.
        Church key takes a different course.  Several posters still use them, but
don’t always call them a “church key.”  I make sure that I have one
around for various reasons.  There are still cans to be opened without
automatic tops, such as large juice cans, which generally don’t fit
electric openers, and can be opened with a screw type can opener, but that
is inconvenient. The tool is available in stores, although not always
readily.  The tool remains, but the name is passing.  The possible visual
physical connection with keys for churches (the e-Bay post) and the possible
metaphoric oxymoron are passing, but the tool lives on.
        Both terms seem to be disappearing, but for quite different reasons.

Jim Stalker

James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From vnend at ADELPHIA.NET  Sat Feb 26 02:54:08 2005
From: vnend at ADELPHIA.NET (David W. James)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:54:08 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <20050225234755.MUSW2140.mta3.adelphia.net@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.215408.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 25, 2005, at 6:47 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
> No, you cannot screw the top back on; wine and beer go flat. With
> wine you can use something like Vacuvin to pump the air out; never
> tried it with beer, but then I'm a wino.

> dInIs

        The wine doesn't go flat (unless it is champagne or the like), it
oxidizes.  Your Vacuvin works by removing a lot of the oxygen in the
bottle until your next use (and it does help slow things down.)  I
don't recommend using it on something that is carbonated though, as the
lower pressure will make it lose its carbonation faster...

        (Flat beer.  Blah.)

David
(Heard 'church key' for a bottle opener for the first time within the
last two years.)


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Feb 26 04:25:19 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 23:25:19 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20church=20key=20'bee?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?r-can=20opener'=20is=20obsolete?=
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.232519.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/25/05 6:18:49 PM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes:


> A Google search reveals roughly 5,000 hits for "church-key" + "beer-can" 
> and "church-key" +
> "bottle-opener."
> 
> Obsolete or obsolescent ?
> 
> Or neither ?
> 
> JL
> 

It depends of course on the nature of the cites. 5,000 hits seems like a lot, 
but if they largely represent (a) collectors and (b) the language of older 
people, then "archaic" or "bercoming obsolete" makes sense. In any 
case--AGAIN--the fact that there are a fair number of hits on Google seems to support the 
conclusion that the term was not a REGIONAL one, which is where all this 
discussion really started.

Also, I'm not sure where the "roughly 5,000 hits" comes from. I found only 
1,500 hits for "church-key + bottle-opener" and 817 hits for "Church-key" + 
"beer-can"; many were duplicates. Of the first ten for "beer can," most were or 
contained definitions of CHURCH KEY, indicating that the term was assumed to be 
unknown to the reader. Several describe CHURCH KEY using the past tense:


Church Key
... on through my newspaper column a question from a Maryland reader about 
why "the
tool that punches a triangular hole in a beer can is called a church key," 
... ...
plateaupress.com.au/wfw/churchke.htm - 4k - <nCached - Similar pages

 Word for Word Archive
... Jennifer Dick McQ: A church key was used to punch a triangular hole in 
the top of
a can, usually a beer can, (before cans were produced with the rings that ...
plateaupress.com.au/wfw/churckey.htm - 2k - <nCached - Similar pages

 Beer Can Lingo
Do you have a beer cans or just a beer can collection that you want to sell 
... The tops
are flat, and to open them, you had to use an opener called a "church key". 
...
www.beercanworld.com/beercans_terms.htm - 12k - <nCached - Similar pages
 Basic Beer-Can Chicken Recipe - Home Cooking
... can. Pour half of the beer (3/4 cup) over the soaking wood chips or 
chunks, or reserve
for another use. If cooking the chicken on the can, using a church key- ...
homecooking.about.com/library/archive/blpoul63.htm - 31k - Feb 23, 2005 - <n
Cached - Similar pages
 ConeTops.com - Collecting and Selling of Old Beer and Soda Cans
... spouted tops (cone tops) or need a can opener (church key) to open ... 
Stories : Flash
Intro : Links : Can Emporium Guestbook : Contact Us : Beer Can Slot Machine 
...
www.conetops.com/sell.html - 28k - <nCached - Similar pages
 Zip Tops
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... Church key: a device invented with the beer can which was used to punch 
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[ More results from www.rustycans.com ]

 GMA Recipe: Beer Can Chicken: Great on the Grill
... 3. Pop the tab on the beer can. Using a "church key"-style can opener ,
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... Drunkula Premium clubs: 2000-06-12 Loc:Denton, TX ·Charter Pipeline, [OT] 
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beer can? ... on the side showing how to open the can using a church-key type 
can ...
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From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Sat Feb 26 09:02:27 2005
From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 09:02:27 -0000
Subject: GOLF (Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden)
In-Reply-To: <p04320403be456c073194@[130.132.231.149]>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.090227.0000.>

Laurence Horn wrote

> Perhaps Michael Quinion covers that in his "POSH" book.  It's from the
> same tradition of faux acronymy.

I did, though only to point out that it was a joke and as an excuse
to give what was known about the real origin. I wasn't able to find
any evidence for where it comes from, except that it often appears in
those joke etymological e-mails that circulate endlessly and which
assert, for example, that a wake is so called because people sit
about the corpse to watch it in case it wakes up.

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <wordseditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Feb 26 09:44:30 2005
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 01:44:30 -0800
Subject: time machine=ATM
In-Reply-To: <p04320404be456c5543e2@[130.132.231.149]>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.014430.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When my children were growing up, I told them to think of the  ATM as "Any Time Money" (as opposed to time restrictions/banking hours for getting money from a bank).


Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
At 4:55 PM -0600 2/25/05, Barbara Need wrote:
>>I had a student report the following to me today:
>>
>>>Greg,
>>>i was working at the hotel today and for the first time someone asked
>>>me where the time machine was, she referred to the atm as the time
>>>machine.
>>>
>>>-Jeri
>>--
>>-
>>Gregory J. Pulliam
>
>Where is she from? When I lived in Milwaukee (82-84) and was first
>using ATMs, the system available to me was a TYME machine (I don't
>remember what that stood for).

"Take Your Money Everywhere".

(We had them in Madison in the late 1970s.)

> It was something else, when I came to
>Chicago (different banks). You (all) may or may not not remember that
>you didn't used to be able to use your ATM card in other networks (or
>even in other places)! Now I have not doubt that the ATM I put my
>card in will recognize it (even if there are OTHER problems with
>getting my money).
>
>Barbara


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.


From preston at MSU.EDU  Sat Feb 26 10:33:11 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 05:33:11 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <123be9c8b31d09d0a3c4f6ed4a9985cb@adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.053311.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes; you are quite right. "Flat" is the folk term I use for the
oxidation process which wine suffers.

dInIs

>On Feb 25, 2005, at 6:47 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>No, you cannot screw the top back on; wine and beer go flat. With
>>wine you can use something like Vacuvin to pump the air out; never
>>tried it with beer, but then I'm a wino.
>
>>dInIs
>
>        The wine doesn't go flat (unless it is champagne or the like), it
>oxidizes.  Your Vacuvin works by removing a lot of the oxygen in the
>bottle until your next use (and it does help slow things down.)  I
>don't recommend using it on something that is carbonated though, as the
>lower pressure will make it lose its carbonation faster...
>
>        (Flat beer.  Blah.)
>
>David
>(Heard 'church key' for a bottle opener for the first time within the
>last two years.)


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Feb 26 11:47:55 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 06:47:55 -0500
Subject: Safire: 'It's A Wrap'
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.064755.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Safire's "On Language" column this week ('It's A Wrap') questions a scene
in _The Aviator_ in which a party for the 1930 film _Hell's Angels_
features a sign reading, "Hell's Angels 'It's a Wrap'".

-----
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/27/magazine/27ONLANGUAGE.html
When did "wrap up" (or "wrapping up," first cited in the sense of
"finishing," in a 1926 book by T.E. Lawrence, best known as Lawrence of
Arabia) turn the verb into a noun, as in "That's a wrap"? The OED's first
citation is from a 1974 cinematographic novel by Michael Ayrton: "Other
cars are heard starting up out of shot and the lights on the pergola go
off, so I assume it's a wrap and the crew is listening to the director
saying something consequential and busy about tomorrow's call."
However, assiduous research turns up this 1957 entry in Charlton Heston's
journal, quoted in the 1998 edition of This Is Orson Welles, by Welles and
Peter Bogdanovich: "We rehearsed all day. . . the studio brass gathering
in the shadows in anxious little knots. By the time we began filming at
5:45, I knew they'd written off the whole day. At 7:40, Orson said: 'OK,
print. That's a wrap on this set.'"
Thus, it appears that the switch from "wrap it up" to "that's a wrap" took
place in the '50s. That seems to make its use in The Aviator about a party
in 1930 an anachronism (from the Greek ana,"back," and chronos, "time").
How does one get this evidence? Went to Amazon.com; searched for
autobiographies of film directors like John Ford, Alfred Hitchcock and
Orson Welles; hit the "search inside the book" feature for "wrap" and up
came the Heston usage in Welles's book. The word hounds and phrase dicks
of the American Dialect Society's listserv may now find an earlier
citation to cast doubt on my conclusion; that's the fun in this
etymological dodge.
-----

Nice plug for the list, but one wonders why Safire didn't consult those
word hounds and phrase dicks *before* writing the column.  In any case,
his (or his assistant's) Amazon-aided research looks like it stands up --
I don't see anything on the databases antedating Heston's 1957 citation
for the noun "wrap".  There are earlier cinematic cites for "wrap-up",
however:

-----
1948 _Mansfield News Journal_ (Ohio) 26 Dec. 7/6 No story, production or
cast values were cut, "but the swift wrap-up would have been impossible
without the full cooperation of the star, Kirk Douglas."
-----
1951 _New York Times_ 11 Nov. X5/4 But just as the cameras were about to
grind, the head lensman and the director decided the light was not good
enough to capture the color of the scene and called for a "wrap up."
-----

Also, Safire only bothered to antedate the noun "wrap" and not the verb
"wrap up", simply stating that it was "first cited in the sense of
'finishing,' in a 1926 book by T.E. Lawrence."  But the OED2's Lawrence
citation doesn't even fit this sense, instead meaning 'to defeat':

-----
1926 T. E. LAWRENCE Seven Pillars (1935) III. xxxvi. 213 The British were
wrapping up the Arabs on all sides--at Aden, at Gaza, at Bagdad.
-----

Regardless of the Lawrence quote, cites are readily available for the
'finishing' sense of "wrap up" before 1926, in both the worlds of film and
sport.  Jesse Sheidlower came across this entry in a film glossary in the
L.A. Times:

-----
1925 Los Angeles Times 29 Nov. II6/2 _Wrap 'em up,_ dismantling and
packing of the cameras.
-----

Clearly the expression originally referred to a literal "wrapping up" of
film equipment.  Early sports usages also tend to be rather literal, e.g.,
referring to a trophy or title as being "(all) wrapped up" for a presumed
victor.  The 1925 cite below is more figurative, however:

-----
1923 _Iowa City Press Citizen_ 28 Jul. 3/4 In his final round, if he could
have played the last three holes in par, four strokes each, he had the
championship all wrapped up and tucked away in his bag.
-----
1925 _Appleton Post Crescent_ (Wisc.) 17 Jun. 13/1 Walter Johnson Tuesday
wrapped up a beautiful shutout victory for the Senators over the Browns, 3
to 0.
-----

The phrase "wrap (it) up" meaning 'to finish (something)' started
appearing more frequently in the '30s, but was still mostly restricted to
cinematic and sporting usage.


--Ben Zimmer


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Sat Feb 26 11:50:13 2005
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 05:50:13 -0600
Subject: Church key anecdote/screw tops
In-Reply-To: <p06020403be458713a124@[10.0.1.2]>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.055013.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The main reason that screw top bottles have never really caught on is
the resistance to them by fine restaurants.
I mean, if you bring your own wine: what  are they going to do, charge
you screwage?

>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Feb 26 12:02:53 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 07:02:53 -0500
Subject: Safire: 'It's A Wrap'
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.070253.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 06:47:55 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer
<bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU> wrote:

>Regardless of the Lawrence quote, cites are readily available for the
>'finishing' sense of "wrap up" before 1926, in both the worlds of film and
>sport.  Jesse Sheidlower came across this entry in a film glossary in the
>L.A. Times:
>
>-----
>1925 Los Angeles Times 29 Nov. II6/2 _Wrap 'em up,_ dismantling and
>packing of the cameras.
>-----

Credit where credit is due: Barry Popik transcribed the full glossary in a
Sep. 2003 post...

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0309C&L=ads-l&P=R2070&m=27187


--Ben Zimmer


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Sat Feb 26 12:06:52 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:06:52 +0000
Subject: squnchy - neologism or misprint
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.120652.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

'His hands stroked her smooth hips and steadied her pelvis, and he carefully
lodged the swollen head of his cock in her squnchy vulva...'
-Don Tsuris, 'Twice As Nice Vice', Beeline 6789, USA, 1980s (www.asstr.org)

Possibly the result of an ORD'd text for online reading.


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Sat Feb 26 12:11:29 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:11:29 +0000
Subject: squnchy - neologism or misprint
In-Reply-To: <200502261207.j1QC74d2002621@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.121129.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ooops! - that should have read ORC'd text

-Neil Crawford


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Sat Feb 26 12:12:39 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:12:39 +0000
Subject: squnchy - neologism or misprint
In-Reply-To: <200502261207.j1QC74d2002621@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.121239.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ignore previous post - that's OCR'd!
-Neil C


From mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT  Sat Feb 26 12:43:40 2005
From: mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT (Amorelli)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:43:40 +0100
Subject: Unuses
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.134340.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thankyou for your extensive response which certainly gives food for thought.
Can I share it with my students?  My edition of the work (Penguin Books,
publ. 1989) has on page 315 : "In addition, any word -this [..] applied in
principle to every word in the language - could be negatived by adding the
affix un-, or could be strengthened by the affix plus-, or, for still
greater emphasis, doubleplus-." However, the author gives no example, either
here in the Appendix, or indeed in the story itself, of these affixes on
verbs.
As for 'unsee', I remember having to do 'unseens' during my Classics
studies. These were translations done 'cold', as it were, i.e. never seen
before the examination itself. My problem :)) was with '[...]site' rather
than sight, or 'sait'

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: Unuses

> I'm pretty sure Newspeak only generalizes "un-" for adjectives, where
> it is used productively to replace "negative" contraries:  "ungood"
> for "bad", "unstrong" for "weak", "doubleplusungood" for "very bad",
> etc.  Curiously, although I'm not sure Orwell was aware of it,
> Newspeak in this respect precisely mirrors earlier stages of English:
> ================
> There is...considerable restriction in the use of un- with short
> simple adjectives of native origin, the negative of these being
> naturally supplied by another simple word of an opposite
> signification.  There is thus little or no tendency now to employ
> such forms as unbroad, undeep, unwide, unbold, unglad, ungood,
> unstrong, unwhole, [etc.] which freely occur in the older language.
> (OED, un- 1, 7; the same general asymmetry (described by Jespersen,
> Zimmer, and others) evidently obtained in the "older language" as in
> Newspeak in that no adjectives of the form "unbad", "unweak",
> "unnarrow" are attested.)
>
> But I'm pretty sure Orwell didn't generalize this to verbs.  On the
> other hand, earlier English--through Middle and Early Modern
> Eng.--lacked the aspectual constraint on un-verbs we now do, so it in
> fact allowed verbs like "unbe", "unbetide" ('not to happen'),
> "untrusten", "uncomprehend", "unbecome".  There's apparently no
> "unhave" as such--but the OED does include one nonce occurrence of
> "unhaving" coupled with "unknowing":
>
> 1449 PECOCK Repr. I. xvi. 89 For harme which y haue knowen come bi
> defaut and the vnhauying and the vnknowing of this..consideracioun.
>
> But I have to admit that the replacement of "lack" with "unhave", as
> below, does seem to be in the spirit if not the letter of Newspeak.
>
> Larry
>
> P.S.  There are a handful of cites for "unsee", but it's not like the
> "unsite" below, a simple 'not to see', but rather the standard
> change-of-state meaning we get with modern "unwrap", "unsay",
> "unhappen":
>
> 1865 J. GROTE Explor. Philos. I. 243 We cannot unsee the prospect before
> us.
> 1871 KINGSLEY At Last xvii, At last we had seen it; and we could not unsee
> it.
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Ed Keer" <edkeer at YAHOO.COM>
>>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 9:56 PM
>>Subject: Unuses
>>
>>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>header -----------------------
>>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>Poster:       Ed Keer <edkeer at YAHOO.COM>
>>>Subject:      Unuses
>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>I have a friend who works at a well known news
>>>organization. He says that they use "unsite" and
>>>"unhave" as verbs in written communications about
>>>stories:
>>>
>>>"Unhave India-Tsunami, pls resend." means "I don't
>>>have the India-Tsunami story, please resend it."
>>>
>>>"Unsite" means something like, "I don't see..."
>>>
>>>I don't think anyone ever uses them when speaking, but
>>>these sound awful to me. Has anyone ever talked about
>>>this?
>>>
>>>Ed
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>__________________________________
>>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>>Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>>>http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>>>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.3.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005
>



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.0 - Release Date: 25/02/2005


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Sat Feb 26 12:55:08 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:55:08 +0000
Subject: squnchy - neologism or misprint
In-Reply-To: <200502261207.j1QC74d2002621@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.125508.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 26/2/05 12:06 pm, neil at neil at TYPOG.CO.UK wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       neil <neil at TYPOG.CO.UK>
> Subject:      squnchy - neologism or misprint
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> 'His hands stroked her smooth hips and steadied her pelvis, and he carefully
> lodged the swollen head of his cock in her squnchy vulva...'
> -Don Tsuris, 'Twice As Nice Vice', Beeline 6789, USA, 1980s (www.asstr.org)
>
> Possibly the result of an ORD'd text for online reading.

same source:
'squinchy hot slit'


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Sat Feb 26 13:38:37 2005
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:38:37 -0500
Subject: Michigan Troll
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.083837.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from another list:

---
____'s elementary school has been on break this week, so she has been
attending a day program [elsewhere] with some kind of field trip each day.

Yesterday, they went to the Scrap Box, a place where all kinds of scrap
materials are available for kids to make stuff with.

One of _____'s projects consisted of a six-inch square piece of black
foam, flat on the table, with many small round objects glued to it, and a
long black cardboard tube rising from one corner.

It's Michigan Troll, she explained.

I didn't understand.

First, you press this button, then this button, she said.  Then, there's a
message here from Michigan Troll.  Then, you press this button.  Ten,
nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one, blastoff!  And this
part is the spacecraft.
-----

Bethany


From preston at MSU.EDU  Sat Feb 26 13:47:10 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:47:10 -0500
Subject: Michigan Troll
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0502260836180.19803@larry.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.084710.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bethany,

As any US map will show you, there is an Upper Peninsula and a Lower
Peninsula which make up the State of MI; many years ago a spectacular
bridge was built to connect the two. Now those of us who live "below
the bridge" are called trolls.

Yooper - resident of the Upper Peninsula (i.e., UP, therefore "yooper") - humor

Funny, eh?

dInIs


>from another list:
>
>---
>____'s elementary school has been on break this week, so she has been
>attending a day program [elsewhere] with some kind of field trip each day.
>
>Yesterday, they went to the Scrap Box, a place where all kinds of scrap
>materials are available for kids to make stuff with.
>
>One of _____'s projects consisted of a six-inch square piece of black
>foam, flat on the table, with many small round objects glued to it, and a
>long black cardboard tube rising from one corner.
>
>It's Michigan Troll, she explained.
>
>I didn't understand.
>
>First, you press this button, then this button, she said.  Then, there's a
>message here from Michigan Troll.  Then, you press this button.  Ten,
>nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one, blastoff!  And this
>part is the spacecraft.
>-----
>
>Bethany


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Sat Feb 26 13:48:53 2005
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:48:53 -0500
Subject: Michigan Troll
In-Reply-To: <a06020401be462d687363@[192.168.1.3]>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.084853.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It all fits, doesn't it?

Bethany

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

>Bethany,
>
>As any US map will show you, there is an Upper Peninsula and a Lower
>Peninsula which make up the State of MI; many years ago a spectacular
>bridge was built to connect the two. Now those of us who live "below
>the bridge" are called trolls.
>
>Yooper - resident of the Upper Peninsula (i.e., UP, therefore "yooper") - humor
>
>Funny, eh?


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sat Feb 26 13:51:08 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:51:08 -0500
Subject: Michigan Troll
In-Reply-To: <a06020401be462d687363@[192.168.1.3]>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.085108.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For what it's worth, this page of "Michigan slang" came up in my news
alerts yesterday:

http://www.easternecho.com/cgi-bin/story.cgi?4527

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org

On Feb 26, 2005, at 08:47, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
> As any US map will show you, there is an Upper Peninsula and a Lower
> Peninsula which make up the State of MI; many years ago a spectacular
> bridge was built to connect the two. Now those of us who live "below
> the bridge" are called trolls.
>
> Yooper - resident of the Upper Peninsula (i.e., UP, therefore
> "yooper") - humor


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 26 15:20:16 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 10:20:16 -0500
Subject: "Seize the Time"
In-Reply-To: <18360.69.142.143.59.1109419373.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.102016.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is anyone able to shed light on the following question by searching
ProQuest Historical Newspapers for me:

I am trying to ascertain whether Bobby Seale's 1968 book _Seize the Time_
originated or popularized that phrase.  I'm not interested in specific
expressions like "he seized the time when no one was looking to put up his
notice," but rather a general expression "seize the time" meaning "take
advantage of a historic moment to launch some bold move."  I realize that
this is not that different from the Latin "carpe diem," but am trying to
figure out whether Seale introduced or popularized a new variation on
"carpe diem."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb 26 16:47:03 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 11:47:03 -0500
Subject: "Seize the Time"
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.114703.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ProQuest seems to have a gap on "seize the time." There's a hit in 1954, and the next hit is 1970 (Black Panthers).

Barry Popik
(about to explore the La Romana caves in the Dominican Republic)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 26 17:40:25 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:40:25 -0500
Subject: Unuses
In-Reply-To: <006601c51c00$ccd53630$0201a8c0@ufficiobx6kaeg>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.124025.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Thankyou for your extensive response which certainly gives food for thought.
>Can I share it with my students?

sure

>  My edition of the work (Penguin Books,
>publ. 1989) has on page 315 : "In addition, any word -this [..] applied in
>principle to every word in the language - could be negatived by adding the
>affix un-, or could be strengthened by the affix plus-, or, for still
>greater emphasis, doubleplus-." However, the author gives no example, either
>here in the Appendix, or indeed in the story itself, of these affixes on
>verbs.

right, and in general it's not clear what a "negatived" verb amounts
to.  For example, it's part of our knowledge of the language that to
"unlove", as in the country song verse below which also includes the
relatively innovative "undream" and "unfeel", cannot amount simply to
*not-love* (as it would be if it were a stative like "to love"
itself), much less to be in the opposite state, i.e. to *hate*, but
must rather be a verb with internal negation applying to an embedded
state (= 'to come to {not/no longer} love').

=======
Julie Roberts
"Unlove Me" (2004)

Unloose this hold you've got on me
Unlock this heart that can't get free
Unlive the night you kissed and hugged me
Undream the dreams that we both shared
Unfeel the feelin' that you cared
Before you leave me, please unlove me
=========
This impression is supported by other such songs (e.g. Lynn
Anderson's 1971 country classic "How Can I Unlove You?", and by text
citations from Chaucer

        I se that clene out of your mynde
Ye han me cast; and I ne kan nor may,
for al this world, withinne myn herte fynde
To unloven yow a quarter of a day!
                (Troilus and Criseyde, v. 1695-8)

to Brontë's Jane Eyre, who confides "I have told you...that I had
learned to love Mr. Rochester; I could not unlove him now."

The *noun* _unlove_ on the other hand has a predictably privative (=
'lack of ___') rather than a reversative ('cause to come to no longer
____') meaning, as in e. e. cummings's line'unlove's the heavenless
hell and homeless home/of knowledgeable shadows'.   So the concept of
what it is to "negative" a word is far from transparent.

>As for 'unsee', I remember having to do 'unseens' during my Classics
>studies. These were translations done 'cold', as it were, i.e. never seen
>before the examination itself. My problem :)) was with '[...]site' rather
>than sight, or 'sait'

That seems like a plausible zero-derivation:  to do something sight
unseen--> to do something unseen-->to do an unseen.  Compare "the
blind" in poker, a bet in poker by someone operating "in the blind",
i.e without seeing their hand or seeing it but not taking its content
into account.  (And the bettor in such circumstances is also a (or
the) blind.  The "unsite" does seem weirder.


Larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb 26 21:51:40 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:51:40 -0500
Subject: Mama Juana & Underground Hotel
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.165140.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The La Romana caves were great. The "smiley" clearly goes back at least 500 years.

UNDERGROUND HOTEL--Used by a tour guide of "cemetery." He said he got it from the U.S. I don't know what the HDAS will have.

MAMA JUANA--Not in the OED. OED editors must not have vacationed in the Dominican Republic at all. This and "Larimar" are in every gift shop.

(GOOGLE)
Bejucos Roots from the Dominican Republic - [ Traduzca esta página ]
... tonic of roots, barks, woody vines and leaves called "Mama Juana". ... use is as tincture
made with the local rum. ... is to ferment them in water with sugar or honey. ...
www.natural-safe-hormones.com/our_story.html - 11k - En caché - Páginas similares

Rough Guides Travel - [ Traduzca esta página ]
... Mama Juana was quite nice, too… the combination of mysterious tropical roots, bark ...
and potency with each “rejuvenation” by rum, red wine, and honey. ...
travel.roughguides.com/planning/journalEntryFreeForm. asp?JournalID=38615&EntryID=18898 - 65k - 24 Feb 2005 - En caché - Páginas similares

DOMINICAN WOMEN FAQ - Dominican In Love - [ Traduzca esta página ]
... One of my favorite is "Mama Juana" It is a mixture of roots that they put in a bottle
that later you add rum, wine, and honey too, or just make your own drink ...
www.dominicaninlove.com/faq.html - 40k - En caché - Páginas similares


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 27 02:12:46 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 21:12:46 -0500
Subject: Mama Juana & Underground Hotel
In-Reply-To: <E1D59ql-0003rm-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.211246.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 26, 2005, at 4:51 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Mama Juana & Underground Hotel
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The La Romana caves were great. The "smiley" clearly goes back at
> least 500 years.
>
> UNDERGROUND HOTEL--Used by a tour guide of "cemetery." He said he got
> it from the U.S. I don't know what the HDAS will have.
>
> MAMA JUANA--Not in the OED. OED editors must not have vacationed in
> the Dominican Republic at all. This and "Larimar" are in every gift
> shop.
>
> (GOOGLE)
> Bejucos Roots from the Dominican Republic - [ Traduzca esta página ]
> ... tonic of roots, barks, woody vines and leaves called "Mama Juana".
> ... use is as tincture
> made with the local rum. ... is to ferment them in water with sugar or
> honey. ...
> www.natural-safe-hormones.com/our_story.html - 11k - En caché -
> Páginas similares
>
> Rough Guides Travel - [ Traduzca esta página ]
> ... Mama Juana was quite nice, too… the combination of mysterious
> tropical roots, bark ...
> and potency with each “rejuvenation” by rum, red wine, and honey.
> ...
> travel.roughguides.com/planning/journalEntryFreeForm.
> asp?JournalID=38615&EntryID=18898 - 65k - 24 Feb 2005 - En caché -
> Páginas similares
>
> DOMINICAN WOMEN FAQ - Dominican In Love - [ Traduzca esta página ]
> ... One of my favorite is "Mama Juana" It is a mixture of roots that
> they put in a bottle
> that later you add rum, wine, and honey too, or just make your own
> drink ...
> www.dominicaninlove.com/faq.html - 40k - En caché - Páginas similares
>

".... that later you add rum, wine, and honey _to_." perhaps?

--Wilson Gray


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 27 02:43:31 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 21:43:31 -0500
Subject: obsolescene [was church key]
In-Reply-To: <E1D4rww-00010F-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.214331.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 25, 2005, at 9:44 PM, James C Stalker wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       James C Stalker <stalker at MSU.EDU>
> Subject:      obsolescene [was church key]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>         The “ice box” example opens some interesting connections
> among
> language, metaphor, and technology.  When I was young, we had an ice
> box.
> My father would bring home blocks of ice and place them in the
> appropriate
> compartment, and replace the ice as necessary.

In my day, ice was delivered by the ice man, a system well-attested in
various blues songs through the ''50's. There was a sign that was
placed in a front window to let the ice man know how many pounds of ice
were wanted. I learned "figidaire" first. My grandmother in Texas had a
General Electric frigidaire. When we moved to St. Louis, we at first
couldn't afford a frigidaire. So, we got an icebox.

-Wilson Gray

>   When we had an electric
> machine that manufactured its own ice, I, of course, still called it
> an ice
> box.  That’s what it was. How the ice got in it was immaterial.  In
> time
> brand names (Frigidare) or generic labels based on function
> (refrigerator)
> replaced ice box, just because more people used those terms.  The
> original
> named object has been replaced by other versions, and has become a box
> that
> makes ice rather than a box that holds ice, apparently, a significant
> shift.
> The term has, for the most part, disappeared, although, denotatively,
> it
> needn’t have.  It is still an ice box.
>         Church key takes a different course.  Several posters still
> use them, but
> don’t always call them a “church key.”  I make sure that I have
> one
> around for various reasons.  There are still cans to be opened without
> automatic tops, such as large juice cans, which generally don’t fit
> electric openers, and can be opened with a screw type can opener, but
> that
> is inconvenient. The tool is available in stores, although not always
> readily.  The tool remains, but the name is passing.  The possible
> visual
> physical connection with keys for churches (the e-Bay post) and the
> possible
> metaphoric oxymoron are passing, but the tool lives on.
>         Both terms seem to be disappearing, but for quite different
> reasons.
>
> Jim Stalker
>
> James C. Stalker
> Department of English
> Michigan State University
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 27 03:29:49 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:29:49 -0500
Subject: Teen lingo site posted by Patti Kurz
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.222949.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This lexicon cites all BE terms ending in -ool as ending in -oo, e.g.
"cool" is spelled "coo." As I mentioned in an earlier post, I had a
problem teaching a white fellow-GI how to pronounce the blackenized
(IIRC, this word appears in "The Nigger Bible"; IAC, it's not original
with me) version of "cool." He kept hearing it and pronouncing it as
"coo." This was in 1961. So, clearly, nothing has changed.

On the other side of the coin, a white colleague had to pull my coat to
the proper pronunciation of "Motrin." I hadn't yet seen this name
spelled out and I heard and reproduced its pronunciation as
"mole-trin."

-Wilson Gray


From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Feb 27 04:39:02 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 05:39:02 +0100
Subject: newspaper article on "y'all"
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.053902.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The sprawl of y'all
AZ Central.com, AZ - Feb 25, 2005
http://www.azcentral.com/ent/pop/articles/0225yall25.html

Paul
__________________________
Paul Frank
Chinese-English translator
Huemoz, Vaud, Switzerland
phone +41 (0)24 495 2493
paulfrank at post.harvard.edu


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 27 05:28:44 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:28:44 -0500
Subject: newspaper article on "y'all"
In-Reply-To: <E1D5GMb-0006n4-00@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.002844.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, back in the '50's or '60's, a white member of the  FDNY wrote a
book about the life of white firemen in a minority - in this case,
Puerto-Rican - neighborhood. In the book, the author wondered why it
was that Puerto-Ricans preferred to model their English on the dialect
of blacks instead of on the dialect of whites. IOW, the use of
Black-colored <har! har!> English by Newyoricans has been a well-known
fact, even to non-linguists, for at least 40 years. That being the
case, the use of Black-English - *not* Southern-English - "y'all" by a
Newyorican is indicative of nothing.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 26, 2005, at 11:39 PM, Paul Frank wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Paul Frank <paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU>
> Subject:      newspaper article on "y'all"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The sprawl of y'all
> AZ Central.com, AZ - Feb 25, 2005
> http://www.azcentral.com/ent/pop/articles/0225yall25.html
>
> Paul
> __________________________
> Paul Frank
> Chinese-English translator
> Huemoz, Vaud, Switzerland
> phone +41 (0)24 495 2493
> paulfrank at post.harvard.edu
>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Feb 27 07:50:14 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 02:50:14 -0500
Subject: "You're not the boss of me" (1953)
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.025014.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's an alt.usage.english discussion going on about the expression
"You're not the boss of me," popularized since 2000 by the theme song to
the show _Malcolm in the Middle_, performed by They Might Be Giants.
Usenet and Nexis take it back to 1993, but Proquest does better by another
40 years:

-----
"Child Behavior: Better to Ward Off That Crisis. The Gesell Institute."
_Washington Post_, Jul 1, 1953, p. 30, col. 6
Put off that visit to grandma, or hers to you, till the peak of this
"Try and make me -- you're not the boss of me" stage is past.
-----

Newspaperarchive shows the similar expression "I'm the boss of me" in use
since 1967:

-----
"Why Behave?" _Lima News_ (Ohio), Nov. 8, 1967, p. 35, col. 1
"I'm the boss of me." Wherever they pick it up, youngsters from tots to
teens make the statement importantly and cling to it.
Upon its earliest utterance, watchful, loving non-permissive parents
will reply that that's the way it should be - as long as the child is a
good boss of him.  If he is not, then someone else has to take over.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Feb 27 13:22:28 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:22:28 -0500
Subject: "You're not the boss of me" (1953)
In-Reply-To: <2525.69.142.143.59.1109490614.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.082228.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 02:50:14AM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
> There's an alt.usage.english discussion going on about the expression
> "You're not the boss of me," popularized since 2000 by the theme song to
> the show _Malcolm in the Middle_, performed by They Might Be Giants.
> Usenet and Nexis take it back to 1993, but Proquest does better by another
> 40 years:

Great cite.

I think the original controversy about the dating of this expression
arose after Monica Lewinsky claimed that it was one of her first
phrases, that she would say it to her mother with her hands on her
hips when she was two years old. There was disbelief about this
claim, but now it is lent a little more credence.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Feb 27 16:21:29 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:21:29 +0100
Subject: Wisconsin-speak
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.172129.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Newspaper article about Wisconsin- speak:

http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/local/index.php?ntid=30138&ntpid=4

Paul
________________________
Paul Frank
Chinese-English translator
paulfrank at post.harvard.edu


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 27 16:54:21 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:54:21 -0500
Subject: "You're not the boss of me" (1953)
In-Reply-To: <20050227132228.GA9313@panix.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.115421.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 02:50:14AM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>
>>There's an alt.usage.english discussion going on about the expression
>>"You're not the boss of me," popularized since 2000 by the theme song to
>>the show _Malcolm in the Middle_, performed by They Might Be Giants.
>>Usenet and Nexis take it back to 1993, but Proquest does better by another
>>40 years:
>
>
> Great cite.
>
> I think the original controversy about the dating of this expression
> arose after Monica Lewinsky claimed that it was one of her first
> phrases, that she would say it to her mother with her hands on her
> hips when she was two years old. There was disbelief about this
> claim, but now it is lent a little more credence.

I don't recall that particular controversy. However, I'm considerably
older than ML, and I do recall "you're not the boss of me" being a
staple part of sibling arguments (right up there with "are too"--"am
not!") in the late 50s/early 60s.

--

Alice Faber


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sun Feb 27 17:02:33 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:02:33 -0500
Subject: obsolescene [was church key]
In-Reply-To: <18ea16d569f7184d9a50210cc171859a@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.120233.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In my day, ice was delivered by the ice man, a system well-attested in
>various blues songs through the ''50's. There was a sign that was
>placed in a front window to let the ice man know how many pounds of ice
>were wanted. I learned "figidaire" first. My grandmother in Texas had a
>General Electric frigidaire. When we moved to St. Louis, we at first
>couldn't afford a frigidaire. So, we got an icebox.
>
>-Wilson Gray
> ~~~~~~~~~~
We, too, had an icebox, which was retired to the back porch and used as a
cupboard when we got a monitor-top GE refrigerator.  I still hear myself
saying "icebox" instead of "fridge," at times.  "Frigidaire" wasn't the the
GE brand...might have been Westinghouse's (or poss. GM's?).
The iceman continued to visit our street through most of the '30s.  The
sign the householder put in the front window had the amounts wanted printed
in different orientations; it was turned so that the one wanted was at the
top.
A. Murie


From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM  Sun Feb 27 21:32:05 2005
From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:32:05 -0500
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.163205.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hey Y'all

Irish lingo has been nominated for an Oscar in Million Dollar Baby along
with the phrase mo chuisle (macushla).

best,
karen ellis


February 26, 2005
OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
Fighting Words
By WES DAVIS

BEFORE the bell has sounded at the start of her first title fight in Clint
Eastwood's Oscar-nominated film "Million Dollar Baby," the scrappy,
big-hearted boxer Maggie Fitzgerald, played by Hilary Swank, finds herself
cheered into the ring by shouts of "Mo Cuishle," the Irish Gaelic moniker
she's been given by her manager, Frankie Dunn, played by Mr. Eastwood.

The name is a shortened form of the phrase "A chuisle mo chroí," "O, pulse
of my heart," or as Frankie will put it more concisely, "My darling." But
Ms. Swank's character doesn't know that yet and neither do we. All we know
is that the words emblazoned - and some argue misspelled - on the back of
her robe are important to a lot of people.

Apparently they still are. After seeing the movie, I overheard whispered
conversations about "Mo Cuishle." A few of the movie goers confessed that
they hadn't even known there was an Irish language apart from English, but
they were captivated by the sound of it. In the last few weeks some queries
about the phrase have arisen on the Internet, and students of the language
are coming out of the woodwork. Around Valentine's Day, in particular, many
Web surfers were frantic to learn how to address their darlings in Irish.

That sort of popular reaction makes sense. In the shorthand of the film, the
Irish, scattered by hardship in their home country but strangely united by
the trials that threw them apart, stand for a culture of underdogs, and the
language that was once the common idiom in Ireland becomes the watchword of
the movie's romantic idea of the hero.

As Maggie's boxing career builds to its climax, Mr. Eastwood hinges the
movie's emotional peaks on the longing held in the Irish language. The most
moving of these moments occurs when Mr. Eastwood's character finally reveals
the meaning of "Mo Cuishle," and when he translates W. B. Yeats's "Lake Isle
of Innisfree" from the little Irish-language book he carries like a talisman
throughout the movie.

An achingly beautiful poem, "Lake Isle" expresses a yearning for escape that
fits perfectly with the movie's hope that it may be possible to build a new
life. For Yeats, the fantasy retreat is a rustic cabin in a "bee-loud
glade." In the movie, it's the "little place in the cedars, somewhere
between nowhere and goodbye," imagined by the character played by Morgan
Freeman.

Yeats's poem also reflects on the more rugged emotional landscape the film
exposes. In "Lake Isle," as in "Million Dollar Baby," the dream of escape
finally slams against the hard facts of real life. The dream can survive, as
Yeats puts it, only "in the deep heart's core." In the movie, the dream is
mined by Mr. Eastwood's character when he labors to translate the poem from
the Gaelic for Maggie. It feels as if he's extracting a gift of hope for her
out of the bedrock of Ireland's nearly forgotten language.

There's just one hitch: Yeats didn't write his poems in Irish. He didn't
even know the language well enough to read it.

On the whole, Yeats was less than rigorous in the way he represented his own
linguistic abilities. He was never fluent in French, for example, but he
talked breezily about the latest French book once his friends had read it to
him. Having once made a stab at memorizing the Hebrew alphabet, he would
later lament having forgotten his Hebrew. But about Irish he was completely
clear. He tried to learn it, and he failed.

The language issue was a vexed one for Yeats. Like many of his countrymen,
he was at times drawn to the image of Ireland as a nation speaking its own
language. He actively promoted dramatic performances in Irish.

But he knew that much of Ireland's literary life, and even more of its
practical business, had been carried on in English for over a century. When
Yeats was serving in the Senate of the newly independent Irish Free State in
1923, he spoke against a proposal that the prayer at the start of every
session be delivered in Irish as well as English. He protested that the
Irish prayer was "a childish performance," since, like him, most of the
senators didn't know the language and were unlikely to learn it.

Later, when the Senate was considering a proposal to add Irish to the
country's traffic signs and railway notices, he argued against it on similar
grounds, fearing that forcing the language on people at a moment when they
just wanted information would hurt the efforts of groups like the Gaelic
League to preserve Irish and spread its use. In the same session, though, he
called for government support of scholarship on Irish language and literature.

Strange as the idea would have seemed to him, Yeats almost certainly would
have supported the translation of his own poems into Irish. Such
translations do now exist, so it's not impossible to imagine Mr. Eastwood's
character wrestling an Irish translation back into the original English.

But all of this is ultimately less important to the film than the effect
"Million Dollar Baby" achieves with its use of Irish. From a cinematic point
of view, Mr. Eastwood couldn't have done better than to adopt the endangered
language of a culture whose history has been as dramatic as that of his
characters. And the wonderful twist of the film's pretense of translating
"The Lake Isle of Innisfree" from the Irish is that it seems to have done
just what the Gaelic League and all those Senate proposals, and even the
contrary Yeats, ultimately wanted. It has stirred up interest in the
language itself.

Wes Davis, an assistant professor of English at Yale, is editing "The Yale
Anthology of Contemporary Irish Poetry."




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http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 27 22:16:17 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:16:17 -0800
Subject: obsolescene [was church key]
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.141617.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've never lived with an actual "icebox," but that's what I grew up calling a refrigerator, and I still do it at unguarded moments.

JL

sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: sagehen
Subject: Re: obsolescene [was church key]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>In my day, ice was delivered by the ice man, a system well-attested in
>various blues songs through the ''50's. There was a sign that was
>placed in a front window to let the ice man know how many pounds of ice
>were wanted. I learned "figidaire" first. My grandmother in Texas had a
>General Electric frigidaire. When we moved to St. Louis, we at first
>couldn't afford a frigidaire. So, we got an icebox.
>
>-Wilson Gray
> ~~~~~~~~~~
We, too, had an icebox, which was retired to the back porch and used as a
cupboard when we got a monitor-top GE refrigerator. I still hear myself
saying "icebox" instead of "fridge," at times. "Frigidaire" wasn't the the
GE brand...might have been Westinghouse's (or poss. GM's?).
The iceman continued to visit our street through most of the '30s. The
sign the householder put in the front window had the amounts wanted printed
in different orientations; it was turned so that the one wanted was at the
top.
A. Murie

__________________________________________________
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 27 22:47:35 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:47:35 -0800
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.144735.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You can start diggin'  the rockin' sheet music to "Macushla," by Jospehine V. Rowe & Dermot MacMurrough (1910) right here :

http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl?record=153.109a.000&pages=5

Or if lyrics alone are your bag, check it :

Macushla! Macushla! your sweet voice is calling,
Calling me softly again and again;
Macushla! Macushla! I hear its dear pleading,
My blue eyed Macushla, I hear it in vain!

Macushla! Macushla! your white arms are reaching,
I feel them enfolding, caressing me still!
Fling them out from the darkness, my lost love Macushla!
Let them find me, and bind me again if they will!

Macushla! Macushla! your red lips are saying,
That death is a dream and love is for aye;
Then awaken Macushla! Awake from your dreaming!                                                             My blue eyed Macushla! awaken to stay!

(Unlikely to have been on Yeats's hit parade.)


JL

Educational CyberPlayGround <admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Y'all

Irish lingo has been nominated for an Oscar in Million Dollar Baby along
with the phrase mo chuisle (macushla).

best,
karen ellis


February 26, 2005
OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
Fighting Words
By WES DAVIS

BEFORE the bell has sounded at the start of her first title fight in Clint
Eastwood's Oscar-nominated film "Million Dollar Baby," the scrappy,
big-hearted boxer Maggie Fitzgerald, played by Hilary Swank, finds herself
cheered into the ring by shouts of "Mo Cuishle," the Irish Gaelic moniker
she's been given by her manager, Frankie Dunn, played by Mr. Eastwood.

The name is a shortened form of the phrase "A chuisle mo chro�," "O, pulse
of my heart," or as Frankie will put it more concisely, "My darling." But
Ms. Swank's character doesn't know that yet and neither do we. All we know
is that the words emblazoned - and some argue misspelled - on the back of
her robe are important to a lot of people.

Apparently they still are. After seeing the movie, I overheard whispered
conversations about "Mo Cuishle." A few of the movie goers confessed that
they hadn't even known there was an Irish language apart from English, but
they were captivated by the sound of it. In the last few weeks some queries
about the phrase have arisen on the Internet, and students of the language
are coming out of the woodwork. Around Valentine's Day, in particular, many
Web surfers were frantic to learn how to address their darlings in Irish.

That sort of popular reaction makes sense. In the shorthand of the film, the
Irish, scattered by hardship in their home country but strangely united by
the trials that threw them apart, stand for a culture of underdogs, and the
language that was once the common idiom in Ireland becomes the watchword of
the movie's romantic idea of the hero.

As Maggie's boxing career builds to its climax, Mr. Eastwood hinges the
movie's emotional peaks on the longing held in the Irish language. The most
moving of these moments occurs when Mr. Eastwood's character finally reveals
the meaning of "Mo Cuishle," and when he translates W. B. Yeats's "Lake Isle
of Innisfree" from the little Irish-language book he carries like a talisman
throughout the movie.

An achingly beautiful poem, "Lake Isle" expresses a yearning for escape that
fits perfectly with the movie's hope that it may be possible to build a new
life. For Yeats, the fantasy retreat is a rustic cabin in a "bee-loud
glade." In the movie, it's the "little place in the cedars, somewhere
between nowhere and goodbye," imagined by the character played by Morgan
Freeman.

Yeats's poem also reflects on the more rugged emotional landscape the film
exposes. In "Lake Isle," as in "Million Dollar Baby," the dream of escape
finally slams against the hard facts of real life. The dream can survive, as
Yeats puts it, only "in the deep heart's core." In the movie, the dream is
mined by Mr. Eastwood's character when he labors to translate the poem from
the Gaelic for Maggie. It feels as if he's extracting a gift of hope for her
out of the bedrock of Ireland's nearly forgotten language.

There's just one hitch: Yeats didn't write his poems in Irish. He didn't
even know the language well enough to read it.

On the whole, Yeats was less than rigorous in the way he represented his own
linguistic abilities. He was never fluent in French, for example, but he
talked breezily about the latest French book once his friends had read it to
him. Having once made a stab at memorizing the Hebrew alphabet, he would
later lament having forgotten his Hebrew. But about Irish he was completely
clear. He tried to learn it, and he failed.

The language issue was a vexed one for Yeats. Like many of his countrymen,
he was at times drawn to the image of Ireland as a nation speaking its own
language. He actively promoted dramatic performances in Irish.

But he knew that much of Ireland's literary life, and even more of its
practical business, had been carried on in English for over a century. When
Yeats was serving in the Senate of the newly independent Irish Free State in
1923, he spoke against a proposal that the prayer at the start of every
session be delivered in Irish as well as English. He protested that the
Irish prayer was "a childish performance," since, like him, most of the
senators didn't know the language and were unlikely to learn it.

Later, when the Senate was considering a proposal to add Irish to the
country's traffic signs and railway notices, he argued against it on similar
grounds, fearing that forcing the language on people at a moment when they
just wanted information would hurt the efforts of groups like the Gaelic
League to preserve Irish and spread its use. In the same session, though, he
called for government support of scholarship on Irish language and literature.

Strange as the idea would have seemed to him, Yeats almost certainly would
have supported the translation of his own poems into Irish. Such
translations do now exist, so it's not impossible to imagine Mr. Eastwood's
character wrestling an Irish translation back into the original English.

But all of this is ultimately less important to the film than the effect
"Million Dollar Baby" achieves with its use of Irish. From a cinematic point
of view, Mr. Eastwood couldn't have done better than to adopt the endangered
language of a culture whose history has been as dramatic as that of his
characters. And the wonderful twist of the film's pretense of translating
"The Lake Isle of Innisfree" from the Irish is that it seems to have done
just what the Gaelic League and all those Senate proposals, and even the
contrary Yeats, ultimately wanted. It has stirred up interest in the
language itself.

Wes Davis, an assistant professor of English at Yale, is editing "The Yale
Anthology of Contemporary Irish Poetry."




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From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Feb 28 04:29:35 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 20:29:35 -0800
Subject: a bunch of the boys ?was/?were...
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.202935.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was struck by the following sentence in a review (NYT Book Review,
2/27/05, p. 17) of JT LeRoy's "Harold's End" by Albert Mobilio, who
edits the fiction section of Bookforum:
-----
"Harold's End" is set in the parks and alleys of San Francisco, where a
group of teenage hustlers takes drugs and turns tricks.
-----

I would have gone for "take" and "turn" myself, but it's an arguable
point.

Ncollective + [ of + NPpl ] is taken up by MWDEU under the heading
"agreement, subject-verb: a bunch of the boys" (as in the immortal line
"A bunch of the boys were whooping it up in the Malamute saloon").  Its
advice is that when the sense is plural, as it usually is, the verb
should be too, though some grammatical sticklers insist that the PP is
just a partitive (as in "a vase of flowers") so the agreement should be
singular.

Now, there are some collective Ns that have been completely
grammaticalized as determiners and so are transparent to the number and
count/mass classification of the head N: a lot of shrubbery has thorns,
a lot of shrubs have/*has thorns.  For me, there are a few collective
Ns that are invariably heads: The committee/team was/*were working on
reports.  For me, the subject-verb agreement remains singular even when
a plural anaphoric pronoun is called for; The committee/team was/*were
working on their/??its individual reports.  (Others, especially British
speakers, have other judgments here.  CGEL, section 18.2 of chapter 5,
has an extensive discussion of the collective facts, taking "committee"
as the paradigm example of a noun allowing either agreement.)

In any case, for me, most other collective Ns permit either agreement,
though they strongly trigger plural agreement when the sense is plural,
as it is with taking drugs and turning tricks.

MWDEU displays several examples of the Mobilio sort, which it suggests
"may be the result of nervous copy editors or indecision on the part of
the writers".  Ah, the perils of instruction.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 04:39:29 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:39:29 -0500
Subject: obsolescene [was church key]
In-Reply-To: <E1D5RmY-0007FA-00@mx04.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.233929.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 27, 2005, at 12:02 PM, sagehen wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
> Subject:      Re: obsolescene [was church key]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> In my day, ice was delivered by the ice man, a system well-attested in
>> various blues songs through the ''50's. There was a sign that was
>> placed in a front window to let the ice man know how many pounds of
>> ice
>> were wanted. I learned "figidaire" first. My grandmother in Texas had
>> a
>> General Electric frigidaire. When we moved to St. Louis, we at first
>> couldn't afford a frigidaire. So, we got an icebox.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>> ~~~~~~~~~~
> We, too, had an icebox, which was retired to the back porch and used
> as a
> cupboard when we got a monitor-top GE refrigerator.  I still hear
> myself
> saying "icebox" instead of "fridge," at times.  "Frigidaire" wasn't
> the the
> GE brand...might have been Westinghouse's (or poss. GM's?).
> The iceman continued to visit our street through most of the '30s.  The
> sign the householder put in the front window had the amounts wanted
> printed
> in different orientations; it was turned so that the one wanted was at
> the
> top.
> A. Murie
>

I remember the "need ice" sign as being exactly as you describe it. I
recall that the brand name of the icebox was "Coolerator." Frigidaires
were originally manufactured by GM. I googled it. Coolerator made
electric fridges, too. But, when we upgraded to electric, we got a
Kelvinator. For a while, we borrowed a gas-powered Servel from my
mother's sister. Remember those? How about the Crosley Shelvador?

-Wilson Gray


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb 28 05:24:57 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 00:24:57 EST
Subject: Bachata (Dominican dance); Vitamin R (rum)
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.002457.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greetings from New York City. I rushed back to witness Monday's  
storm..."Mama juana" is also "mamajuana," of course. "To/too" was copied and not  typed by 
me.
...
OT: My autistic nephew received a stem cell shot down there. It appears to  
have been worthless. Autism is on the cover of Newsweek and was on the front  
page of Saturday's New York Times.
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
VITAMIN R
...
I posted that "rum" was "Vitamin A." It's also "Vitamin R," according to  
another tour guide.
...
...
(GOOGLE)
...
_Sunworld Holidays - Irish Tour Operator providing holidays online  ..._ 
(http://www.sunworld.ie/destinations/dominican_republic.htm) 
... English is spoken in most  tourist areas. Currency: Dominican Peso. ... 
Drink:
The most  popular drink is 'Vitamin R' - rum to the visitor.  ... 
www.sunworld.ie/destinations/dominican_republic.htm - 28k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:bYn2GvH5u4cJ:www.sunworld.ie/destinations/dominic
an_republic.htm+"vitamin+r"+rum+dominican&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8)  - 
_Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.sunworld.ie/destinations/dominican_republic.htm)  
...
_One Click From Sanity: January 2004 Archives_ 
(http://www.worldwidesam.net/oneclickfromsanity/archives/2004_01.html) 
... for the delay in my continuing story of the Dominican  Republic. ... 
That's how the tour
guide, Osvaldo, pronounced  Vitamin R, and he was referring to rum. ...  
www.worldwidesam.net/  oneclickfromsanity/archives/2004_01.html - 77k - 
_Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:yNb2VoPZbSsJ:www.worldwidesam.net/oneclickfromsanity/archives/2004_01.html+"vitamin+r"+rum+dominican&hl=en&lr=lang_
en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.worldwidesam.net/oneclickfromsanity/archives/2004_01.h
tml)  
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
BACHATA
...
OED has no entry for "bachata" and only one citation. Along with meringue  
and salsa, "bachata" is a national dance in the Dominican Republic. It's gotta  
be in the dictionary.
...
...
(OED)
    2.  fig. Vigorous, powerful; very intense; cf. _OCTANE_ 
(http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=fulltext&queryword=bachata&first=1&max_to_sho
w=10&search_spec=fulltext&sort_type=alpha&search_id=zTNu-IrkJQS-9628&control_n
o=00335164&result_place=1&xrefword=octane&ps=n.)  n. 3. 

1944 N.Y.  Times 19 Mar. II. 3/6  High octane ballyhoo..has..smartly reversed 
the usual procedure  of opus first and publicity, advertising and 
exploitation afterward. 1974 _E.  BOWEN_ 
(http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-b3.html#e-bowen)  Henry & Other Heroes iv. 77 Mother and Uncle Harry, whose bodies 
and brains happened to be  huge, paired engines that ran on high-octane 
ambition. 1995 Wire Jan. 57/2 His high-octane  Latino product decants ska, salsa, 
hi-life, mambo and just about anything and  everything else South American into a 
peculiarly Dominican form of merengue  called bachata.
...
...
...
(GOOGLE)
...
_Merengue &  Bachata from the Dominican Republic_ 
(http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/)  - [ _Translate this page_ 
(http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/&prev=/search?q=bachata&hl=en&lr=&i
e=UTF-8)  ] 
    Music from and information about the Dominican  Republic, Merengue, 
Bachata and Perico Ripiao, a lot of music  examples and pictures of the country. 
... 
home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/ - 12k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:wCArm0E9W3EJ:home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/+bachata&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - 
_Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/) 
...
_History of bachata_ 
(http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/historias/history_bachata.html)      Music and information from the Dominican  Republic, Merengue, 
Bachata and Perico Ripiao, a lot of examples of  the music and pictures of the 
country. ... 
home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/  historias/history_bachata.html - 15k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:EBFlXrAMg5UJ:home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/his
torias/history_bachata.html+bachata&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/
historias/history_bachata.html) 

... 
...
_http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/historias/history_bachata.html_ (http://hom
e-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/historias/history_bachata.html) 
 
This text was taken from the book "Bachata, A social history of a Dominican  
popular music", published by Temple University Press in 1995, written by 
Deborah  Pacini Hernandez.
Defining Bachata
The music that today is  called bachata emerged from and belongs to a 
long-standin Pan-Latin American  tradition of guitar music, música de guitarra, which 
was typically played  by trios or quartets comprised of one or two guitars 
(or other related stringed  instrument such as the smaller requito), with 
percussion provided by  maracas and/or other instruments such as claves (hardwood 
sticks used for  percussion), bongo drums, or a gourd güiro scraper. Sometimes a 
large thumb bass  called marimba or marimbula was included as well. When 
bachata emerged in the  early 1960s, it was part of an important subcategory of 
guitar music, romantic  guitar music -as distinguished from guitar music 
intended primarily for dancing  such as th Cuban son or guaracha- although in later 
decades, as  musicians began speeding up the rhythm and dancers developed a new 
dance step,  bachata began to be considered dance music as well. The most 
popular and  widespread genre of romantic guitar music in this century, and the 
most  influential for the development of bachata, was the Cuban bolero (not to 
be  confused with the unrelated Spanish bolero). Bachata musicians, however, 
also  drew upon other genres of música de guitarra that accomplished guitarists 
would  be familiar with, including Mexican rancheros and corridos, Cuban  
son, guaracha and guajira, Puerto Rican plena and  jibaro music, and the 
Colombian-Ecuadorian vals campesino and  pasillo- as well as the Dominican merengue, 
which was originally  guitar-based.
Before the development of a Dominican  redording industry and the spread of 
the mass media, guitar-based trios and  quartets were almost indispensable for 
a variety of informal recreational events  such as Sunday afternoon parties 
known as pasadías and spontaneous  gatherings that took place in back yards, 
living rooms, or in the street that  were known as bachatas. Dictionaries of 
Latin American Spanish define the  term bachata as juerga, jolgorio, or parranda, 
all of which  denote fun, merriment, a good time, or a spree, but in the 
Dominican Republic,  in addition to the emotional quality of fun and enjoyment 
suggested by the  dictionary definition, it referred specifically to get-togethers 
that included  music, drink, and food. The musicians who played at bachatas 
were usually local,  friends an neighbors of the host, although sometimes 
reputed musicians from  farther away might be brought in for a special occacion. 
Musicians were normally  recompensed only with food and drink, but a little 
money might be given as well.  Parties were usually held on Saturday night and 
would go on until dawn, at which  time a traditional soup, the sancocho, was 
served to the remaining  guests. Because the music played at htese gatherings was 
so often played on  guitars (although accordio-based ensembles were also 
common), the guitar-based  music recorded in the 1960s and 1970s by musicians of 
rural origins came to be  known as bachata.
The word bachata also had  certain associations, upper-class parties would 
never be called bachatas. In his  book Al amor del bohío (1927), Ramón Emilio 
Jiménez, a distinguished  Dominican "man of leters" and "writer of manners," 
described a bachata in terms  that reflect how such gatherings were associated by 
the elite with low-class  debauchery and dissipation:

The "bachata" is a center of attraction for  all the men, where the social 
classes ao those who attend them are leveled and  where the coarsest and 
libertarian forms of democracy predominate. The most  elegant figures of the barrio 
are there, daring and audacious. The setting of  these dissolute pleasures is a 
small living room impregnated by odors that seem  conjured to challenge 
decency....In an adjoining room a guitarist plucks and  unleashes into the 
contaminated air of the house (a) blazing street-level  couplet, to which a singer 
with a well-established reputation as a "second"  makes a duo, provisioned with a 
pair of spoons which he strikes to accompany the  melody.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 06:12:01 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:12:01 -0500
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <E1D5XCM-0002Ok-00@mx17.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.011201.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember "Macushla" as one of several Irish-themed popular songs of
my childhood. I had no idea that it was so old. Some others are:

Casey Lowered The Boom
Christmas In Killarney
Mother Macree, i.e. Mathair Mo Chroi "Mother, My Heart"
Derry Air (= Danny Boy)
Harrington

and a couple of others that I remember only a few words of, e.g.
"....The drums go banging / The cymbals clanging / The horns they blaze
away...."

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 27, 2005, at 5:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> You can start diggin'  the rockin' sheet music to "Macushla," by
> Jospehine V. Rowe & Dermot MacMurrough (1910) right here :
>
> http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl?
> record=153.109a.000&pages=5
>
> Or if lyrics alone are your bag, check it :
>
> Macushla! Macushla! your sweet voice is calling,
> Calling me softly again and again;
> Macushla! Macushla! I hear its dear pleading,
> My blue eyed Macushla, I hear it in vain!
>
> Macushla! Macushla! your white arms are reaching,
> I feel them enfolding, caressing me still!
> Fling them out from the darkness, my lost love Macushla!
> Let them find me, and bind me again if they will!
>
> Macushla! Macushla! your red lips are saying,
> That death is a dream and love is for aye;
> Then awaken Macushla! Awake from your dreaming!
>                                      My blue eyed Macushla! awaken to
> stay!
>
> (Unlikely to have been on Yeats's hit parade.)
>
>
> JL
>
> Educational CyberPlayGround <admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround
> Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Hey Y'all
>
> Irish lingo has been nominated for an Oscar in Million Dollar Baby
> along
> with the phrase mo chuisle (macushla).
>
> best,
> karen ellis
>
>
> February 26, 2005
> OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
> Fighting Words
> By WES DAVIS
>
> BEFORE the bell has sounded at the start of her first title fight in
> Clint
> Eastwood's Oscar-nominated film "Million Dollar Baby," the scrappy,
> big-hearted boxer Maggie Fitzgerald, played by Hilary Swank, finds
> herself
> cheered into the ring by shouts of "Mo Cuishle," the Irish Gaelic
> moniker
> she's been given by her manager, Frankie Dunn, played by Mr. Eastwood.
>
> The name is a shortened form of the phrase "A chuisle mo chroí," "O,
> pulse
> of my heart," or as Frankie will put it more concisely, "My darling."
> But
> Ms. Swank's character doesn't know that yet and neither do we. All we
> know
> is that the words emblazoned - and some argue misspelled - on the back
> of
> her robe are important to a lot of people.
>
> Apparently they still are. After seeing the movie, I overheard
> whispered
> conversations about "Mo Cuishle." A few of the movie goers confessed
> that
> they hadn't even known there was an Irish language apart from English,
> but
> they were captivated by the sound of it. In the last few weeks some
> queries
> about the phrase have arisen on the Internet, and students of the
> language
> are coming out of the woodwork. Around Valentine's Day, in particular,
> many
> Web surfers were frantic to learn how to address their darlings in
> Irish.
>
> That sort of popular reaction makes sense. In the shorthand of the
> film, the
> Irish, scattered by hardship in their home country but strangely
> united by
> the trials that threw them apart, stand for a culture of underdogs,
> and the
> language that was once the common idiom in Ireland becomes the
> watchword of
> the movie's romantic idea of the hero.
>
> As Maggie's boxing career builds to its climax, Mr. Eastwood hinges the
> movie's emotional peaks on the longing held in the Irish language. The
> most
> moving of these moments occurs when Mr. Eastwood's character finally
> reveals
> the meaning of "Mo Cuishle," and when he translates W. B. Yeats's
> "Lake Isle
> of Innisfree" from the little Irish-language book he carries like a
> talisman
> throughout the movie.
>
> An achingly beautiful poem, "Lake Isle" expresses a yearning for
> escape that
> fits perfectly with the movie's hope that it may be possible to build
> a new
> life. For Yeats, the fantasy retreat is a rustic cabin in a "bee-loud
> glade." In the movie, it's the "little place in the cedars, somewhere
> between nowhere and goodbye," imagined by the character played by
> Morgan
> Freeman.
>
> Yeats's poem also reflects on the more rugged emotional landscape the
> film
> exposes. In "Lake Isle," as in "Million Dollar Baby," the dream of
> escape
> finally slams against the hard facts of real life. The dream can
> survive, as
> Yeats puts it, only "in the deep heart's core." In the movie, the
> dream is
> mined by Mr. Eastwood's character when he labors to translate the poem
> from
> the Gaelic for Maggie. It feels as if he's extracting a gift of hope
> for her
> out of the bedrock of Ireland's nearly forgotten language.
>
> There's just one hitch: Yeats didn't write his poems in Irish. He
> didn't
> even know the language well enough to read it.
>
> On the whole, Yeats was less than rigorous in the way he represented
> his own
> linguistic abilities. He was never fluent in French, for example, but
> he
> talked breezily about the latest French book once his friends had read
> it to
> him. Having once made a stab at memorizing the Hebrew alphabet, he
> would
> later lament having forgotten his Hebrew. But about Irish he was
> completely
> clear. He tried to learn it, and he failed.
>
> The language issue was a vexed one for Yeats. Like many of his
> countrymen,
> he was at times drawn to the image of Ireland as a nation speaking its
> own
> language. He actively promoted dramatic performances in Irish.
>
> But he knew that much of Ireland's literary life, and even more of its
> practical business, had been carried on in English for over a century.
> When
> Yeats was serving in the Senate of the newly independent Irish Free
> State in
> 1923, he spoke against a proposal that the prayer at the start of every
> session be delivered in Irish as well as English. He protested that the
> Irish prayer was "a childish performance," since, like him, most of the
> senators didn't know the language and were unlikely to learn it.
>
> Later, when the Senate was considering a proposal to add Irish to the
> country's traffic signs and railway notices, he argued against it on
> similar
> grounds, fearing that forcing the language on people at a moment when
> they
> just wanted information would hurt the efforts of groups like the
> Gaelic
> League to preserve Irish and spread its use. In the same session,
> though, he
> called for government support of scholarship on Irish language and
> literature.
>
> Strange as the idea would have seemed to him, Yeats almost certainly
> would
> have supported the translation of his own poems into Irish. Such
> translations do now exist, so it's not impossible to imagine Mr.
> Eastwood's
> character wrestling an Irish translation back into the original
> English.
>
> But all of this is ultimately less important to the film than the
> effect
> "Million Dollar Baby" achieves with its use of Irish. From a cinematic
> point
> of view, Mr. Eastwood couldn't have done better than to adopt the
> endangered
> language of a culture whose history has been as dramatic as that of his
> characters. And the wonderful twist of the film's pretense of
> translating
> "The Lake Isle of Innisfree" from the Irish is that it seems to have
> done
> just what the Gaelic League and all those Senate proposals, and even
> the
> contrary Yeats, ultimately wanted. It has stirred up interest in the
> language itself.
>
> Wes Davis, an assistant professor of English at Yale, is editing "The
> Yale
> Anthology of Contemporary Irish Poetry."
>
>
>
>
> <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
> The Educational CyberPlayGround
> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/
>
> National Children's Folksong Repository
> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/
>
> Hot List of Schools Online and
> Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters
> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/
>
> 7 Hot Site Awards
> New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink,
> USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty
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>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 06:27:38 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:27:38 -0500
Subject: a bunch of the boys ?was/?were...
In-Reply-To: <E1D5cXK-0003U9-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.012738.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 27, 2005, at 11:29 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
> Subject:      a bunch of the boys ?was/?were...
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I was struck by the following sentence in a review (NYT Book Review,
> 2/27/05, p. 17) of JT LeRoy's "Harold's End" by Albert Mobilio, who
> edits the fiction section of Bookforum:
> -----
> "Harold's End" is set in the parks and alleys of San Francisco, where a
> group of teenage hustlers takes drugs and turns tricks.
> -----
>
> I would have gone for "take" and "turn" myself, but it's an arguable
> point.

It's not an arguable point at all. You are correct, sir. All that one
need do is apply the relevant prescriptive rule:

1) "The group" et sim. require a singular verb phrase.

2) "A group" et sim. require a plural verb phrase.

-Wilson [I do but jest, of course. But (1) and (2) above are real
prescriptive rules that I was taught in high school.]

>
> Ncollective + [ of + NPpl ] is taken up by MWDEU under the heading
> "agreement, subject-verb: a bunch of the boys" (as in the immortal line
> "A bunch of the boys were whooping it up in the Malamute saloon").  Its
> advice is that when the sense is plural, as it usually is, the verb
> should be too, though some grammatical sticklers insist that the PP is
> just a partitive (as in "a vase of flowers") so the agreement should be
> singular.
>
> Now, there are some collective Ns that have been completely
> grammaticalized as determiners and so are transparent to the number and
> count/mass classification of the head N: a lot of shrubbery has thorns,
> a lot of shrubs have/*has thorns.  For me, there are a few collective
> Ns that are invariably heads: The committee/team was/*were working on
> reports.  For me, the subject-verb agreement remains singular even when
> a plural anaphoric pronoun is called for; The committee/team was/*were
> working on their/??its individual reports.  (Others, especially British
> speakers, have other judgments here.  CGEL, section 18.2 of chapter 5,
> has an extensive discussion of the collective facts, taking "committee"
> as the paradigm example of a noun allowing either agreement.)
>
> In any case, for me, most other collective Ns permit either agreement,
> though they strongly trigger plural agreement when the sense is plural,
> as it is with taking drugs and turning tricks.
>
> MWDEU displays several examples of the Mobilio sort, which it suggests
> "may be the result of nervous copy editors or indecision on the part of
> the writers".  Ah, the perils of instruction.
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>


From Jerryekane at AOL.COM  Mon Feb 28 06:47:52 2005
From: Jerryekane at AOL.COM (Jerry E Kane)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:47:52 EST
Subject: Spim - New Form of Spam
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.014752.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Following is an excerpt from an article in the Los Angeles Times dated,
Saturday, Feb 19th :

N.Y. Man Arrested Over Instant Message Spam
by Joseph Menn
Times Staff Writer

Flooding the inbox is no longer enough.

Now spammers have gone beyond e-mail and are attacking instant-message
services
popular with teenagers, authorities said Friday as they announced the arrest
of a young man suspected of broadcasting 1.5 million ads for pornography and
cheap
mortgages.

Federal prosecutors said it was the first criminal case involving this new
form of spam - known as "spim" because it targets so-called IM services.
.......................................

Jerry E Kane
Los Angeles, CA


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 06:57:08 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:57:08 -0500
Subject: Bachata (Dominican dance); Vitamin R (rum)
In-Reply-To: <E1D5dOx-0000DO-00@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.015708.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

According to the book, "Voodoo Fire In Haiti" by Richard Loederer
(1935), the merengue, which he spells as "merinqué," is the national
dance of Haiti. Although I've known both Dominicans and Haitians, it's
never occurred to me to ask about the merengue WRT Haiti. But the
Dominicans definitely claim the merengue as their national dance. If
you have cable, it's easy to find Dominican TV shows devoted to the
merengue. As is so often the case in such situations, I find the
merengue as I first heard it in 1957 to be superior to the merengue of
today.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 28, 2005, at 12:24 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Bachata (Dominican dance); Vitamin R (rum)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Greetings from New York City. I rushed back to witness Monday's =20
> storm..."Mama juana" is also "mamajuana," of course. "To/too" was
> copied and=
>  not  typed by=20
> me.
> ...
> OT: My autistic nephew received a stem cell shot down there. It
> appears to =20
> have been worthless. Autism is on the cover of Newsweek and was on the
> front=
>  =20
> page of Saturday's New York Times.
> ...
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----=
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------
> VITAMIN R
> ...
> I posted that "rum" was "Vitamin A." It's also "Vitamin R," according
> to =20
> another tour guide.
> ...
> ...
> (GOOGLE)
> ...
> _Sunworld Holidays - Irish Tour Operator providing holidays online
> ..._=20
> (http://www.sunworld.ie/destinations/dominican_republic.htm)=20
> ... English is spoken in most  tourist areas. Currency: Dominican
> Peso. ...=20
> Drink:
> The most  popular drink is 'Vitamin R' - rum to the visitor.  ...=20
> www.sunworld.ie/destinations/dominican_republic.htm - 28k - _Cached_=20
> (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:bYn2GvH5u4cJ:www.sunworld.ie/
> destina=
> tions/dominic
> an_republic.htm+"vitamin+r"+rum+dominican&hl=3Den&lr=3Dlang_en&ie=3DUTF
> -8) =20=
> -=20
> _Similar pages_=20
> (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3Dlang_en&ie=3DUTF
> -8&q=3Drelated:ww=
> w.sunworld.ie/destinations/dominican_republic.htm) =20
> ...
> _One Click From Sanity: January 2004 Archives_=20
> (http://www.worldwidesam.net/oneclickfromsanity/archives/
> 2004_01.html)=20
> ... for the delay in my continuing story of the Dominican  Republic.
> ...=20
> That's how the tour
> guide, Osvaldo, pronounced  Vitamin R, and he was referring to rum.
> ... =20
> www.worldwidesam.net/  oneclickfromsanity/archives/2004_01.html - 77k
> -=20
> _Cached_=20
> (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:yNb2VoPZbSsJ:
> www.worldwidesam.net/on=
> eclickfromsanity/archives/
> 2004_01.html+"vitamin+r"+rum+dominican&hl=3Den&lr=
> =3Dlang_
> en&ie=3DUTF-8)  - _Similar pages_=20
> (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3Dlang_en&ie=3DUTF
> -8&q=3Drelated:ww=
> w.worldwidesam.net/oneclickfromsanity/archives/2004_01.h
> tml) =20
> ...
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----=
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------
> BACHATA
> ...
> OED has no entry for "bachata" and only one citation. Along with
> meringue =20
> and salsa, "bachata" is a national dance in the Dominican Republic.
> It's got=
> ta =20
> be in the dictionary.
> ...
> ...
> (OED)
>     2.  fig. Vigorous, powerful; very intense; cf. _OCTANE_=20
> (http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?
> query_type=3Dfulltext&queryword=3Dba=
> chata&first=3D1&max_to_sho
> w=3D10&search_spec=3Dfulltext&sort_type=3Dalpha&search_id=3DzTNu-
> IrkJQS-9628=
> &control_n
> o=3D00335164&result_place=3D1&xrefword=3Doctane&ps=3Dn.)  n. 3.=20
>
> 1944 N.Y.  Times 19 Mar. II. 3/6  High octane ballyhoo..has..smartly
> reverse=
> d=20
> the usual procedure  of opus first and publicity, advertising and=20
> exploitation afterward. 1974 _E.  BOWEN_=20
> (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-b3.html#e-bowen)  Henry &
> Other Her=
> oes iv. 77 Mother and Uncle Harry, whose bodies=20
> and brains happened to be  huge, paired engines that ran on
> high-octane=20
> ambition. 1995 Wire Jan. 57/2 His high-octane  Latino product decants
> ska, s=
> alsa,=20
> hi-life, mambo and just about anything and  everything else South
> American i=
> nto a=20
> peculiarly Dominican form of merengue  called bachata.
> ...
> ...
> ...
> (GOOGLE)
> ...
> _Merengue &  Bachata from the Dominican Republic_=20
> (http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/)  - [ _Translate this page_=20
> (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=3Den&sl=3Des&u=3Dhttp://
> home-3.tis=
> cali.nl/~pjetax/&prev=3D/search?q=3Dbachata&hl=3Den&lr=3D&i
> e=3DUTF-8)  ]=20
>     Music from and information about the Dominican  Republic,
> Merengue,=20
> Bachata and Perico Ripiao, a lot of music  examples and pictures of
> the coun=
> try.=20
> ...=20
> home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/ - 12k - _Cached_=20
> (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:wCArm0E9W3EJ:home
> -3.tiscali.nl/~pjet=
> ax/+bachata&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8)  -=20
> _Similar pages_=20
> (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated:
> home-3.ti=
> scali.nl/~pjetax/)=20
> ...
> _History of bachata_=20
> (http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/historias/history_bachata.html)
> Music=
>  and information from the Dominican  Republic, Merengue,=20
> Bachata and Perico Ripiao, a lot of examples of  the music and
> pictures of t=
> he=20
> country. ...=20
> home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/  historias/history_bachata.html - 15k -
> _Cached_=20
> (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:EBFlXrAMg5UJ:home
> -3.tiscali.nl/~pjet=
> ax/his
> torias/history_bachata.html+bachata&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8)  - _Similar
> pages_=20
> (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated:
> home-3.ti=
> scali.nl/~pjetax/
> historias/history_bachata.html)=20
>
> ...=20
> ...
> _http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/historias/history_bachata.html_
> (http://ho=
> m
> e-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/historias/history_bachata.html)=20
> =20
> This text was taken from the book "Bachata, A social history of a
> Dominican=20=
> =20
> popular music", published by Temple University Press in 1995, written
> by=20
> Deborah  Pacini Hernandez.
> Defining Bachata
> The music that today is  called bachata emerged from and belongs to
> a=20
> long-standin Pan-Latin American  tradition of guitar music, m=FAsica
> de guit=
> arra, which=20
> was typically played  by trios or quartets comprised of one or two
> guitars=20
> (or other related stringed  instrument such as the smaller requito),
> with=20
> percussion provided by  maracas and/or other instruments such as
> claves (har=
> dwood=20
> sticks used for  percussion), bongo drums, or a gourd g=FCiro scraper.
> Somet=
> imes a=20
> large thumb bass  called marimba or marimbula was included as well.
> When=20
> bachata emerged in the  early 1960s, it was part of an important
> subcategory=
>  of=20
> guitar music, romantic  guitar music -as distinguished from guitar
> music=20
> intended primarily for dancing  such as th Cuban son or guaracha-
> although i=
> n later=20
> decades, as  musicians began speeding up the rhythm and dancers
> developed a=20=
> new=20
> dance step,  bachata began to be considered dance music as well. The
> most=20
> popular and  widespread genre of romantic guitar music in this
> century, and=20=
> the=20
> most  influential for the development of bachata, was the Cuban bolero
> (not=20=
> to=20
> be  confused with the unrelated Spanish bolero). Bachata musicians,
> however,=
> =20
> also  drew upon other genres of m=FAsica de guitarra that accomplished
> guita=
> rists=20
> would  be familiar with, including Mexican rancheros and corridos,
> Cuban =20
> son, guaracha and guajira, Puerto Rican plena and  jibaro music, and
> the=20
> Colombian-Ecuadorian vals campesino and  pasillo- as well as the
> Dominican m=
> erengue,=20
> which was originally  guitar-based.
> Before the development of a Dominican  redording industry and the
> spread of=20
> the mass media, guitar-based trios and  quartets were almost
> indispensable f=
> or=20
> a variety of informal recreational events  such as Sunday afternoon
> parties=20
> known as pasad=EDas and spontaneous  gatherings that took place in
> back yard=
> s,=20
> living rooms, or in the street that  were known as bachatas.
> Dictionaries of=
> =20
> Latin American Spanish define the  term bachata as juerga, jolgorio,
> or parr=
> anda,=20
> all of which  denote fun, merriment, a good time, or a spree, but in
> the=20
> Dominican Republic,  in addition to the emotional quality of fun and
> enjoyme=
> nt=20
> suggested by the  dictionary definition, it referred specifically to
> get-tog=
> ethers=20
> that included  music, drink, and food. The musicians who played at
> bachatas=20
> were usually local,  friends an neighbors of the host, although
> sometimes=20
> reputed musicians from  farther away might be brought in for a special
> occac=
> ion.=20
> Musicians were normally  recompensed only with food and drink, but a
> little=20
> money might be given as well.  Parties were usually held on Saturday
> night a=
> nd=20
> would go on until dawn, at which  time a traditional soup, the
> sancocho, was=
> =20
> served to the remaining  guests. Because the music played at htese
> gathering=
> s was=20
> so often played on  guitars (although accordio-based ensembles were
> also=20
> common), the guitar-based  music recorded in the 1960s and 1970s by
> musician=
> s of=20
> rural origins came to be  known as bachata.
> The word bachata also had  certain associations, upper-class parties
> would=20
> never be called bachatas. In his  book Al amor del boh=EDo (1927),
> Ram=F3n E=
> milio=20
> Jim=E9nez, a distinguished  Dominican "man of leters" and "writer of
> manners=
> ,"=20
> described a bachata in terms  that reflect how such gatherings were
> associat=
> ed by=20
> the elite with low-class  debauchery and dissipation:
>
> The "bachata" is a center of attraction for  all the men, where the
> social=20
> classes ao those who attend them are leveled and  where the coarsest
> and=20
> libertarian forms of democracy predominate. The most  elegant figures
> of the=
>  barrio=20
> are there, daring and audacious. The setting of  these dissolute
> pleasures i=
> s a=20
> small living room impregnated by odors that seem  conjured to
> challenge=20
> decency....In an adjoining room a guitarist plucks and  unleashes into
> the=20
> contaminated air of the house (a) blazing street-level  couplet, to
> which a=20=
> singer=20
> with a well-established reputation as a "second"  makes a duo,
> provisioned w=
> ith a=20
> pair of spoons which he strikes to accompany the  melody.
>


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Feb 28 11:21:00 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:21:00 -0500
Subject: Bachata (Dominican dance); Vitamin R (rum)
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.062100.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From the future issue of The Barnhart DICTIONARY COMPANION:

bachata, ba CHA tah /ba’cha ta/, n. {W}  1.  a popular form of music from
Dominican Republic, characterized by bitter themes.  Compare tipico and
salsa and bamba.  Standard (used in contexts dealing especially with
entertainment; frequency?)

The “merengue tipico” (or “perico ripiao”) and the “bachata” derives from
the countryside of the Dominican Republic. The "tipico" has an infectious
party rhythm which, no matter where you're from, invites you to dance. The
“bachata” on the other hand can be compared to the “blues”, where its
melancholic sounds makes you yearn for a love long ago gone.  Spanish
Goodies.com,
<http://spanishgoodies.safeshopper.com/11/cat11.htm?984>

And it's not just the older generation that listens to the music of their
homeland. Many teens born in the United States are rabid fans of all
styles of Latin music, a direct influence of their parents. It is not
unusual to see low-slung cars booming to the intricate rhythms of
Merengue, Mambo, Salsa, or Bachata, where in other neighborhoods hip-hop
might be the choice.  Dylan M. Archilla, “Soul of a community: Latin music
binds UC, WNY communities,” The Union City Reporter.com, Jan. 19, 2003,
<http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=6731671&BRD=1295&PAG=461&dept_id=142205&rfi=6>

Dominican music comes in two forms: the exuberantly sensuous merengue and
something called “bachata.”  Bachata – which sounds like the Gypsy Kings
meet Paul Simon in Graceland – is devoted to hurtin’ love songs.  “I love
bachata,” says Santana. “When I listen to bachata, I cry.”  Laura Robin,
“Take sweet talk with grain of salt,” Edmonton Journal [Edmonton
Canada.com], Jan. 19, 2003,
<http://www.canada.com/edmonton/edmontonjournal/story.asp?id=C40F6C4F-BE1E-459C-8505-49F562AF55DD>

For those who want to start the year with a little more snap, try the New
Year's Party Latino Style at the Chena River Convention Center. The
family-oriented dance will start at 9 p.m. and go until 2 a.m.   “We’ll
have a wide variety of Latino music: salsa, merengue, bachata, tejano,
ranchero,” said organizer Jose Martinez, owner of ATM Productions. The
cost is $10 a person, ages 12 and older. There will be door prizes,
including a grand prize of a patriotic leather jacket, Martinez said.
Diana Campbell, “New Year’s Eve Offers Variety of Events,” Fairbanks
[Alaska] News-Miner, Dec. 31, 2002,
<http://www.news-miner.com/Stories/0,1413,113%257E7247%257E1082357,00.html>

2. Attributive use.

Derived from the Latin American tradition of guitar music, bachata emerged
in the 1960s only to be denigrated by the media, mainstream musicians, and
middle- and upper-class Dominicans, mainly because the lyrics—often about
hard drinking, women troubles, illicit sex, and male bravado–were
considered vulgar and worthless. While popular radio filled the air waves
with merengue and salsa, bachata musicians were forced to develop their
own system of producing and distributing their music. Not until Juan Luis
Guerra won a Grammy in 1992 for his album Bachata Rosa did bachata gain
legitimacy and international recognition. Deborah Pacini Hernandez,
“Bachata; A Social History of a Dominican Popular Music,” Temple
University, 2003,
<http://www.temple.edu/tempress/titles/1135_reg.html>

Featuring performances and interviews with Bachata artists and
ethno-musicologists, the hour-long documentary was shot in New York and
Santo Domingo. It is the first in-depth exploration of this musical genre,
examining various influences from neighboring Caribbean countries and its
parallels with American Blues.  “Filmmaker presents documentary about
Bachata music,” News Release from University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point,
Nov. 5, 2002,
<http://www.uwsp.edu/news/pr/scBachata.htm>

1991? (in English).  Loan word (borrowing): from Spanish bachata, meaning
“.”  Perhaps related to bacha, meaning “butt, stub,” or bache, meaning
“bad time.”


bachatera, bah cha TAIR uh, /ba t*a’ter a/, n. {W}  a woman who performs
bachata.  Standard (used in contexts dealing especially with entertainment
in general and music in particular; frequency?)

Many informal jam sessions on back porches and patios, the essence of
roots Bachata, were also documented. In addition to Luis Vargas, known as
the Supreme King of Bitterness, featured artists include Teodoro Reyes
(the wise little blind man), Raulín Rodríguez (the chieftain), Ramon
Cordero, Eladio Romero Santos, Joan Soriano, Luis Segura and Aridia
Ventura, the sole female bachatera in a sea of machismo. Scenes in poor
neighborhoods of Santo Domingo and other towns introduce supporting
characters to develop some of the themes of what is definitely a music of
the people.  “Santo Domingo Blues: ‘Notes on the Making of Santo Domingo
Blues’,” Mombo Media,
<http://www.santodomingoblues.com/themaking.html>

Loan word (borrowing): from Spanish bachatera.  Compare bachata.


bachatero, bah chuh TAIR oh /ba t*a’TER ou/, n.   a musician who plays or
sings bachata.    Compare bachatera.   Standard (used in contexts dealing
especially with entertainment in general and music in particular;
frequency?)

AW [Afropop Worldwide]: What artistic names have you used over the years?
LV [Luis Vargas]: First they called me the "Jefe Supremo de la Bachata"
[Supreme Boss of Bachata]. A friend of mine who was a radio disk jockey
baptized me with that one. His name is Salvador Díaz Alejo. In that area
of the northeast border line [with Haiti] I was the only bachatero. There
were no others. That's when they called me the "Jefe Supremo." Later when
I moved to Santiago de los Caballeros, they baptized me the "Rey Supremo
de la Bachata" [the Supreme King of Bachata]. These terms, these
qualifiers, don't have anything to do with trying to be superior to
anyone. It's just that these nicknames have become a tradition in Bachata.
I don't really feel like a king, but I like my nickname.
AW: What do you call te guitar you use now?
LV: The one I use now? Well, it's a normal guitar but we have adapted it
to carry a pickup microphone, as if it were electric. I was the first one
to make this modification.  Later other bachateros begin to do the same.
Alex Wolf, “Santo Domingo Blues” an interview with Luis Vargas for Afropop
Worldwide <http://www.afropop.org/multi/interview/ID/24>

1998?  Loan word (borrowing): from Spanish bachatero.  Compare bachata.

David K. Barnhart, Editor/Publisher
The Barnhart DICTIONARY COMPANION
Lexik at highlands.com


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Mon Feb 28 12:23:05 2005
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:23:05 -0600
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <98da106d23fed42fe03129efba4b24c5@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.062305.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The one with all instruments going would be "McNamara's Band." Don't
forget "When Irish Eyes are Smiling," "A Little Bit of Heaven," and the
ever-popular "Has Anyone Here Seen Kelly" (at least at my house).

sally donlon


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Mon Feb 28 12:45:51 2005
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:45:51 -0600
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <98da106d23fed42fe03129efba4b24c5@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.064551.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

But the one the kids liked most of all was that bit of Irish bull set
to melody called "Bridget O'Flynn."

sally donlon


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 28 12:44:54 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:44:54 -0800
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.044454.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The song with the clanging symbols is "Macnamara's Band" (1917), by Shamus O'Connor & John J. Stamford.  Your computer will play the tune right here:

http://www.rienzihills.com/SING/macnamarasband.htm

Bing Crosby recorded it during WWII.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I remember "Macushla" as one of several Irish-themed popular songs of
my childhood. I had no idea that it was so old. Some others are:

Casey Lowered The Boom
Christmas In Killarney
Mother Macree, i.e. Mathair Mo Chroi "Mother, My Heart"
Derry Air (= Danny Boy)
Harrington

and a couple of others that I remember only a few words of, e.g.
"....The drums go banging / The cymbals clanging / The horns they blaze
away...."

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 27, 2005, at 5:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> You can start diggin' the rockin' sheet music to "Macushla," by
> Jospehine V. Rowe & Dermot MacMurrough (1910) right here :
>
> http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl?
> record=153.109a.000&pages=5
>
> Or if lyrics alone are your bag, check it :
>
> Macushla! Macushla! your sweet voice is calling,
> Calling me softly again and again;
> Macushla! Macushla! I hear its dear pleading,
> My blue eyed Macushla, I hear it in vain!
>
> Macushla! Macushla! your white arms are reaching,
> I feel them enfolding, caressing me still!
> Fling them out from the darkness, my lost love Macushla!
> Let them find me, and bind me again if they will!
>
> Macushla! Macushla! your red lips are saying,
> That death is a dream and love is for aye;
> Then awaken Macushla! Awake from your dreaming!
> My blue eyed Macushla! awaken to
> stay!
>
> (Unlikely to have been on Yeats's hit parade.)
>
>
> JL
>
> Educational CyberPlayGround wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround
> Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Hey Y'all
>
> Irish lingo has been nominated for an Oscar in Million Dollar Baby
> along
> with the phrase mo chuisle (macushla).
>
> best,
> karen ellis
>
>
> February 26, 2005
> OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
> Fighting Words
> By WES DAVIS
>
> BEFORE the bell has sounded at the start of her first title fight in
> Clint
> Eastwood's Oscar-nominated film "Million Dollar Baby," the scrappy,
> big-hearted boxer Maggie Fitzgerald, played by Hilary Swank, finds
> herself
> cheered into the ring by shouts of "Mo Cuishle," the Irish Gaelic
> moniker
> she's been given by her manager, Frankie Dunn, played by Mr. Eastwood.
>
> The name is a shortened form of the phrase "A chuisle mo chro�," "O,
> pulse
> of my heart," or as Frankie will put it more concisely, "My darling."
> But
> Ms. Swank's character doesn't know that yet and neither do we. All we
> know
> is that the words emblazoned - and some argue misspelled - on the back
> of
> her robe are important to a lot of people.
>
> Apparently they still are. After seeing the movie, I overheard
> whispered
> conversations about "Mo Cuishle." A few of the movie goers confessed
> that
> they hadn't even known there was an Irish language apart from English,
> but
> they were captivated by the sound of it. In the last few weeks some
> queries
> about the phrase have arisen on the Internet, and students of the
> language
> are coming out of the woodwork. Around Valentine's Day, in particular,
> many
> Web surfers were frantic to learn how to address their darlings in
> Irish.
>
> That sort of popular reaction makes sense. In the shorthand of the
> film, the
> Irish, scattered by hardship in their home country but strangely
> united by
> the trials that threw them apart, stand for a culture of underdogs,
> and the
> language that was once the common idiom in Ireland becomes the
> watchword of
> the movie's romantic idea of the hero.
>
> As Maggie's boxing career builds to its climax, Mr. Eastwood hinges the
> movie's emotional peaks on the longing held in the Irish language. The
> most
> moving of these moments occurs when Mr. Eastwood's character finally
> reveals
> the meaning of "Mo Cuishle," and when he translates W. B. Yeats's
> "Lake Isle
> of Innisfree" from the little Irish-language book he carries like a
> talisman
> throughout the movie.
>
> An achingly beautiful poem, "Lake Isle" expresses a yearning for
> escape that
> fits perfectly with the movie's hope that it may be possible to build
> a new
> life. For Yeats, the fantasy retreat is a rustic cabin in a "bee-loud
> glade." In the movie, it's the "little place in the cedars, somewhere
> between nowhere and goodbye," imagined by the character played by
> Morgan
> Freeman.
>
> Yeats's poem also reflects on the more rugged emotional landscape the
> film
> exposes. In "Lake Isle," as in "Million Dollar Baby," the dream of
> escape
> finally slams against the hard facts of real life. The dream can
> survive, as
> Yeats puts it, only "in the deep heart's core." In the movie, the
> dream is
> mined by Mr. Eastwood's character when he labors to translate the poem
> from
> the Gaelic for Maggie. It feels as if he's extracting a gift of hope
> for her
> out of the bedrock of Ireland's nearly forgotten language.
>
> There's just one hitch: Yeats didn't write his poems in Irish. He
> didn't
> even know the language well enough to read it.
>
> On the whole, Yeats was less than rigorous in the way he represented
> his own
> linguistic abilities. He was never fluent in French, for example, but
> he
> talked breezily about the latest French book once his friends had read
> it to
> him. Having once made a stab at memorizing the Hebrew alphabet, he
> would
> later lament having forgotten his Hebrew. But about Irish he was
> completely
> clear. He tried to learn it, and he failed.
>
> The language issue was a vexed one for Yeats. Like many of his
> countrymen,
> he was at times drawn to the image of Ireland as a nation speaking its
> own
> language. He actively promoted dramatic performances in Irish.
>
> But he knew that much of Ireland's literary life, and even more of its
> practical business, had been carried on in English for over a century.
> When
> Yeats was serving in the Senate of the newly independent Irish Free
> State in
> 1923, he spoke against a proposal that the prayer at the start of every
> session be delivered in Irish as well as English. He protested that the
> Irish prayer was "a childish performance," since, like him, most of the
> senators didn't know the language and were unlikely to learn it.
>
> Later, when the Senate was considering a proposal to add Irish to the
> country's traffic signs and railway notices, he argued against it on
> similar
> grounds, fearing that forcing the language on people at a moment when
> they
> just wanted information would hurt the efforts of groups like the
> Gaelic
> League to preserve Irish and spread its use. In the same session,
> though, he
> called for government support of scholarship on Irish language and
> literature.
>
> Strange as the idea would have seemed to him, Yeats almost certainly
> would
> have supported the translation of his own poems into Irish. Such
> translations do now exist, so it's not impossible to imagine Mr.
> Eastwood's
> character wrestling an Irish translation back into the original
> English.
>
> But all of this is ultimately less important to the film than the
> effect
> "Million Dollar Baby" achieves with its use of Irish. From a cinematic
> point
> of view, Mr. Eastwood couldn't have done better than to adopt the
> endangered
> language of a culture whose history has been as dramatic as that of his
> characters. And the wonderful twist of the film's pretense of
> translating
> "The Lake Isle of Innisfree" from the Irish is that it seems to have
> done
> just what the Gaelic League and all those Senate proposals, and even
> the
> contrary Yeats, ultimately wanted. It has stirred up interest in the
> language itself.
>
> Wes Davis, an assistant professor of English at Yale, is editing "The
> Yale
> Anthology of Contemporary Irish Poetry."
>
>
>
>
> <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
> The Educational CyberPlayGround
> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/
>
> National Children's Folksong Repository
> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/
>
> Hot List of Schools Online and
> Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters
> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/
>
> 7 Hot Site Awards
> New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink,
> USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty
> <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
>





---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 13:44:48 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:44:48 -0500
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <E1D5juN-0007Qb-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.084448.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How do you know....? Oh, of course. You're Sally O'Donlon! ;-)

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 28, 2005, at 7:23 AM, Sally O. Donlon wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Sally O. Donlon" <sod at LOUISIANA.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The one with all instruments going would be "McNamara's Band." Don't
> forget "When Irish Eyes are Smiling," "A Little Bit of Heaven," and the
> ever-popular "Has Anyone Here Seen Kelly" (at least at my house).
>
> sally donlon
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 14:14:22 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:14:22 -0500
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <E1D5kGe-0003kE-00@mx10.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.091422.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Right you are. And, again, I'm surprised by how old the song is. Does
anybody else remember the radio and comic-book character, Hop Harrigan,
his sidekick, whose name I've forgotten (Tank? But I'm probably
confusing him with Tank McNamara), and the gremlin. whose name I've
also forgotten. But I still remember the nickname that Hop gave to the
native girl: "Singsong." Which reminds me, the song title is
"Harrigan," not "Harrington." No wonder that I couldn't match the meter
with the song: "Spell it H, A, dooble R, I, G, A, N ?spells 'Harrigan'?
That's me!"

-Wilson

On Feb 28, 2005, at 7:44 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The song with the clanging symbols is "Macnamara's Band" (1917), by
> Shamus O'Connor & John J. Stamford.  Your computer will play the tune
> right here:
>
> http://www.rienzihills.com/SING/macnamarasband.htm
>
> Bing Crosby recorded it during WWII.
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I remember "Macushla" as one of several Irish-themed popular songs of
> my childhood. I had no idea that it was so old. Some others are:
>
> Casey Lowered The Boom
> Christmas In Killarney
> Mother Macree, i.e. Mathair Mo Chroi "Mother, My Heart"
> Derry Air (= Danny Boy)
> Harrington
>
> and a couple of others that I remember only a few words of, e.g.
> "....The drums go banging / The cymbals clanging / The horns they blaze
> away...."
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
> On Feb 27, 2005, at 5:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> You can start diggin' the rockin' sheet music to "Macushla," by
>> Jospehine V. Rowe & Dermot MacMurrough (1910) right here :
>>
>> http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl?
>> record=153.109a.000&pages=5
>>
>> Or if lyrics alone are your bag, check it :
>>
>> Macushla! Macushla! your sweet voice is calling,
>> Calling me softly again and again;
>> Macushla! Macushla! I hear its dear pleading,
>> My blue eyed Macushla, I hear it in vain!
>>
>> Macushla! Macushla! your white arms are reaching,
>> I feel them enfolding, caressing me still!
>> Fling them out from the darkness, my lost love Macushla!
>> Let them find me, and bind me again if they will!
>>
>> Macushla! Macushla! your red lips are saying,
>> That death is a dream and love is for aye;
>> Then awaken Macushla! Awake from your dreaming!
>> My blue eyed Macushla! awaken to
>> stay!
>>
>> (Unlikely to have been on Yeats's hit parade.)
>>
>>
>> JL
>>
>> Educational CyberPlayGround wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround
>> Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Hey Y'all
>>
>> Irish lingo has been nominated for an Oscar in Million Dollar Baby
>> along
>> with the phrase mo chuisle (macushla).
>>
>> best,
>> karen ellis
>>
>>
>> February 26, 2005
>> OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
>> Fighting Words
>> By WES DAVIS
>>
>> BEFORE the bell has sounded at the start of her first title fight in
>> Clint
>> Eastwood's Oscar-nominated film "Million Dollar Baby," the scrappy,
>> big-hearted boxer Maggie Fitzgerald, played by Hilary Swank, finds
>> herself
>> cheered into the ring by shouts of "Mo Cuishle," the Irish Gaelic
>> moniker
>> she's been given by her manager, Frankie Dunn, played by Mr. Eastwood.
>>
>> The name is a shortened form of the phrase "A chuisle mo chroí," "O,
>> pulse
>> of my heart," or as Frankie will put it more concisely, "My darling."
>> But
>> Ms. Swank's character doesn't know that yet and neither do we. All we
>> know
>> is that the words emblazoned - and some argue misspelled - on the back
>> of
>> her robe are important to a lot of people.
>>
>> Apparently they still are. After seeing the movie, I overheard
>> whispered
>> conversations about "Mo Cuishle." A few of the movie goers confessed
>> that
>> they hadn't even known there was an Irish language apart from English,
>> but
>> they were captivated by the sound of it. In the last few weeks some
>> queries
>> about the phrase have arisen on the Internet, and students of the
>> language
>> are coming out of the woodwork. Around Valentine's Day, in particular,
>> many
>> Web surfers were frantic to learn how to address their darlings in
>> Irish.
>>
>> That sort of popular reaction makes sense. In the shorthand of the
>> film, the
>> Irish, scattered by hardship in their home country but strangely
>> united by
>> the trials that threw them apart, stand for a culture of underdogs,
>> and the
>> language that was once the common idiom in Ireland becomes the
>> watchword of
>> the movie's romantic idea of the hero.
>>
>> As Maggie's boxing career builds to its climax, Mr. Eastwood hinges
>> the
>> movie's emotional peaks on the longing held in the Irish language. The
>> most
>> moving of these moments occurs when Mr. Eastwood's character finally
>> reveals
>> the meaning of "Mo Cuishle," and when he translates W. B. Yeats's
>> "Lake Isle
>> of Innisfree" from the little Irish-language book he carries like a
>> talisman
>> throughout the movie.
>>
>> An achingly beautiful poem, "Lake Isle" expresses a yearning for
>> escape that
>> fits perfectly with the movie's hope that it may be possible to build
>> a new
>> life. For Yeats, the fantasy retreat is a rustic cabin in a "bee-loud
>> glade." In the movie, it's the "little place in the cedars, somewhere
>> between nowhere and goodbye," imagined by the character played by
>> Morgan
>> Freeman.
>>
>> Yeats's poem also reflects on the more rugged emotional landscape the
>> film
>> exposes. In "Lake Isle," as in "Million Dollar Baby," the dream of
>> escape
>> finally slams against the hard facts of real life. The dream can
>> survive, as
>> Yeats puts it, only "in the deep heart's core." In the movie, the
>> dream is
>> mined by Mr. Eastwood's character when he labors to translate the poem
>> from
>> the Gaelic for Maggie. It feels as if he's extracting a gift of hope
>> for her
>> out of the bedrock of Ireland's nearly forgotten language.
>>
>> There's just one hitch: Yeats didn't write his poems in Irish. He
>> didn't
>> even know the language well enough to read it.
>>
>> On the whole, Yeats was less than rigorous in the way he represented
>> his own
>> linguistic abilities. He was never fluent in French, for example, but
>> he
>> talked breezily about the latest French book once his friends had read
>> it to
>> him. Having once made a stab at memorizing the Hebrew alphabet, he
>> would
>> later lament having forgotten his Hebrew. But about Irish he was
>> completely
>> clear. He tried to learn it, and he failed.
>>
>> The language issue was a vexed one for Yeats. Like many of his
>> countrymen,
>> he was at times drawn to the image of Ireland as a nation speaking its
>> own
>> language. He actively promoted dramatic performances in Irish.
>>
>> But he knew that much of Ireland's literary life, and even more of its
>> practical business, had been carried on in English for over a century.
>> When
>> Yeats was serving in the Senate of the newly independent Irish Free
>> State in
>> 1923, he spoke against a proposal that the prayer at the start of
>> every
>> session be delivered in Irish as well as English. He protested that
>> the
>> Irish prayer was "a childish performance," since, like him, most of
>> the
>> senators didn't know the language and were unlikely to learn it.
>>
>> Later, when the Senate was considering a proposal to add Irish to the
>> country's traffic signs and railway notices, he argued against it on
>> similar
>> grounds, fearing that forcing the language on people at a moment when
>> they
>> just wanted information would hurt the efforts of groups like the
>> Gaelic
>> League to preserve Irish and spread its use. In the same session,
>> though, he
>> called for government support of scholarship on Irish language and
>> literature.
>>
>> Strange as the idea would have seemed to him, Yeats almost certainly
>> would
>> have supported the translation of his own poems into Irish. Such
>> translations do now exist, so it's not impossible to imagine Mr.
>> Eastwood's
>> character wrestling an Irish translation back into the original
>> English.
>>
>> But all of this is ultimately less important to the film than the
>> effect
>> "Million Dollar Baby" achieves with its use of Irish. From a cinematic
>> point
>> of view, Mr. Eastwood couldn't have done better than to adopt the
>> endangered
>> language of a culture whose history has been as dramatic as that of
>> his
>> characters. And the wonderful twist of the film's pretense of
>> translating
>> "The Lake Isle of Innisfree" from the Irish is that it seems to have
>> done
>> just what the Gaelic League and all those Senate proposals, and even
>> the
>> contrary Yeats, ultimately wanted. It has stirred up interest in the
>> language itself.
>>
>> Wes Davis, an assistant professor of English at Yale, is editing "The
>> Yale
>> Anthology of Contemporary Irish Poetry."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
>> The Educational CyberPlayGround
>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/
>>
>> National Children's Folksong Repository
>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/
>>
>> Hot List of Schools Online and
>> Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters
>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/
>>
>> 7 Hot Site Awards
>> New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink,
>> USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty
>> <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
>


From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Feb 28 14:17:06 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:17:06 +0100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.151706.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's an article from the New Scientist about the linguistic abilities
of gay and straight men and women:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7069

I didn't write the article, and the findings may well be arrant
nonsense, but I thought some ADS readers might be interested.

Paul
________________________
Paul Frank
Chinese-English translator
paulfrank at post.harvard.edu
http://languagejottings.blogspot.com


From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Feb 28 14:18:06 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:18:06 +0100
Subject: gays and straights
In-Reply-To: <20050228141707.960672A2D@post.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.151806.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Apologies for sending this without a header.

> Here's an article from the New Scientist about the linguistic abilities
> of gay and straight men and women:
>
> http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7069
>
> I didn't write the article, and the findings may well be arrant
> nonsense, but I thought some ADS readers might be interested.

Paul
________________________
Paul Frank
Chinese-English translator
paulfrank at post.harvard.edu
http://languagejottings.blogspot.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Feb 28 14:46:13 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:46:13 -0500
Subject: obsolescene [was church key]
In-Reply-To: <f89d3c229fd22c24f802c4f50fbd2d4c@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.094613.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:39 PM -0500 2/27/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>
>
>I remember the "need ice" sign as being exactly as you describe it. I
>recall that the brand name of the icebox was "Coolerator." Frigidaires
>were originally manufactured by GM. I googled it. Coolerator made
>electric fridges, too. But, when we upgraded to electric, we got a
>Kelvinator. For a while, we borrowed a gas-powered Servel from my
>mother's sister. Remember those? How about the Crosley Shelvador?
>
>-Wilson Gray

The Crosley Shelvador...ah yes, I remember it well.  When I was a
(non-post-doc) post-doc at MIT in 1971-72, the old fridge/ice box for
graduate student use in one of the corridors of the linguistics
quarters in the late Building 20 (can't recall if it was the D wing
or E wing) was a Crosley Shelvador, and some of the graduate students
(this was the era of Lasnik, Fiengo, Wasow, Prince, et al.) decided
that this would be our "Bourbaki", so that squibs would be submitted
as authored by Crosley Shelvador, acknowledgments in papers would
express gratitude to Crosley Shelvador, and so on.  Can't recall
(this was 33 years ago, and memories of even important events of this
kind do tend to fade over time, as Maurice Chevalier reminded us) how
far we progressed with this scam, or what became of the eponymous
Crosley himself.

larry


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Mon Feb 28 14:51:33 2005
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:51:33 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.095133.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>

: David,

: I always knew there was something I really liked about you. Now I
: know what it is: your open oh/ah distribution before /g/ is exactly
: the same as mine! Maybe I am not the last living speaker of Standard
: American English (SAE 10-W-40, the norm) after all!

Well, i am younger, so i probably don't speak it *perfectly*--i don't have
the horse-hoarse distinction, after all. Mine must be SAE 5W30.

: But, I wonder if the notorious variability you mention might not be
: explained by a word frequency/early learning appeal. Every one of
: your (and my) open oh words (hog, frog, dog, log...) is a relatively
: high-frequency and early-learned word; every ah word is a relatively
: low-frequency and later-learned word (jog, cog, blog...). In my case,
: for example, since "smog" is right in the middle (middle frequency,
: learned only a little earlier than some of the ah words), I don't
: like either pronunciation.

I remember having trouble with this one--i've finally settled on open-o.

"Jog", FWIW, is another one i had trouble with growing up, though in that
case i settled on ah.

(And yeah, i'm pretty definite about my categorization of <og> words--if i
were writing rhyming poetry, "hog" most certainly could *not* rhyme with
"cog".)

: How do you deal with some of the other historical open oh producers?
: ah before /f/ is really hard for me to get, even in late learned
: words (e.g., Hoffa). I remember a "Poff" family where I grew up, and
: I think we ah-ed them, but it hits my ear funny even today.

"Hoffa" is clearly open-o for me. Let's see: cough, trough, &c...Yep,
consistently open-o. There may be an exception out there, but i can't think
of one.



David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Feb 28 15:03:03 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:03:03 -0500
Subject: a bunch of the boys ?was/?were...
In-Reply-To: <755f3d186d35b20b10466db9e251131c@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.100303.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:27 AM -0500 2/28/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>
>It's not an arguable point at all. You are correct, sir. All that one
>need do is apply the relevant prescriptive rule:
>
>1) "The group" et sim. require a singular verb phrase.
>
>2) "A group" et sim. require a plural verb phrase.
>
>-Wilson [I do but jest, of course. But (1) and (2) above are real
>prescriptive rules that I was taught in high school.]
>

Like all prescriptive rules, I fear these--or at least (2)--will end
up leaking around the edges.  If the predicate relates directly to
the group rather than its members, a singular verb sounds better to
me:

A group of Bantu languages in southern Africa {have/#has} click consonants.
A group of Bantu languages forming an enclave in eastern Nigeria is
(?are) in danger of becoming extinct/has (?have) been shown to be
closely related to a subgroup of languages in the Lake Victoria
region.

[N.B.: The "facts" in the latter sentence were just made up on the spot]

Or even more clearly in:

"A group of people always has (#have) a leader."

And then there are quasi-metalinguistic uses:

"For me, a group of objects always has/?have at least 3 members"

What's crucial is whether we're predicating something directly of the
group or of its members.

Larry


From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Mon Feb 28 15:15:09 2005
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:15:09 -0600
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <200502280612.j1S6C5iq003049@mx1.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.091509.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray mentions:
> Casey Lowered The Boom

Is it Casey? I remember it as Clancy: "Whenever he gets his irish up /
Clancy lowers the boom!"

Jim Parish


From preston at MSU.EDU  Mon Feb 28 15:19:29 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:19:29 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <00ba01c51da5$00d89350$f0fbaa84@BOWIE>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.101929.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David,

I belive this further confirms my speculation (if speculation can be
confirmed). You are of a generation which would have learned both
"smog" and "jog" earlier. When I was a wee lad, the air was clean and
we just ran.

dInIs



>From:    "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
>
>: David,
>
>: I always knew there was something I really liked about you. Now I
>: know what it is: your open oh/ah distribution before /g/ is exactly
>: the same as mine! Maybe I am not the last living speaker of Standard
>: American English (SAE 10-W-40, the norm) after all!
>
>Well, i am younger, so i probably don't speak it *perfectly*--i don't have
>the horse-hoarse distinction, after all. Mine must be SAE 5W30.
>
>: But, I wonder if the notorious variability you mention might not be
>: explained by a word frequency/early learning appeal. Every one of
>: your (and my) open oh words (hog, frog, dog, log...) is a relatively
>: high-frequency and early-learned word; every ah word is a relatively
>: low-frequency and later-learned word (jog, cog, blog...). In my case,
>: for example, since "smog" is right in the middle (middle frequency,
>: learned only a little earlier than some of the ah words), I don't
>: like either pronunciation.
>
>I remember having trouble with this one--i've finally settled on open-o.
>
>"Jog", FWIW, is another one i had trouble with growing up, though in that
>case i settled on ah.
>
>(And yeah, i'm pretty definite about my categorization of <og> words--if i
>were writing rhyming poetry, "hog" most certainly could *not* rhyme with
>"cog".)
>
>: How do you deal with some of the other historical open oh producers?
>: ah before /f/ is really hard for me to get, even in late learned
>: words (e.g., Hoffa). I remember a "Poff" family where I grew up, and
>: I think we ah-ed them, but it hits my ear funny even today.
>
>"Hoffa" is clearly open-o for me. Let's see: cough, trough, &c...Yep,
>consistently open-o. There may be an exception out there, but i can't think
>of one.
>
>
>
>David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
>     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
>     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
>     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Feb 28 15:39:34 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:39:34 -0500
Subject: Spim - New Form of Spam
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.103934.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Spim dates back at least to an article by Eric Zorn in the Chicago Tribune on 8/5/1999:  <<The peddlers, pornographers, predators, publicists and other pests will also try to get in on the act.  We now call their e-mail "spam."  We'll call their instant messages "spIM.">>  This sounds as if he invented the term, but I'll bet there's earlier out there.

        Merriam-Webster, I see, has the related word "spam" back to 1994.  Google Groups has on 7/9/1987:  <<Our return addresses always get munged into something resembling Spam.>>  "Spam" is used as early as 8/8/1982, but most of these uses are in usernames or addresses, or are otherwise ambiguous.

        It seems that the meaning of "spam" was not immediately settled.  From a 6/1/1991 article in Compute, discussing online chat terms:  <<Spam: Information that might not be legitimate or real, as in This rumor may have a high Spam content.>>  The article has several other early uses, and I've reproduced it in full below my signature.

John Baker


<<Compute
COPYRIGHT 1991 Compute Publications International Ltd.


Saturday, June 1, 1991


Vol. 13, No. 6, ISSN: 0194-357X


Chat lines: learn the lingo. (electronic bulletin board jargon) (column)


Denny Atkin

You think you've finally mastered the operation of that intimidating metal, plastic, and silicon beast on your desk. In fact, you're confident enough using your personal software that you decide it's time to reach out and touch some other computers. After perusing the manuals, you log on to an online service for the first time. The chat line looks interesting, so you select it from the service's main menu.

Messages flow down your screen, but what are these people taking about? You try to follow the conversation, but it's filled with strange terms and indecipherable acronyms. Despite all your research and studying before you logged on, you don't seem to be able to speak the language.

The best way to approach anything with a computer is to read the manual. Most problems can be solved by a quick check of the documentation. However, you can't get a manual for your local BBS system. And the documentation provided by most online services is superficial at best. Even if the manual is thorough, it's not going to teach you online lingo.

Don't despair, though. Almost everyone online learned by trial and error. Just because you're a newbie doesn't mean everyone will be ROTFL if you flub a post. But to help you get started, here are some of the more common examples of online jargon and acronyms (STEVEX and the rest of the gang on People/Link helped fill in the gaps in my personal jargon dictionary).

Newbie: Someone new to a particular online service, BBS, or modeming in general. Newbies are often afraid to post anything publicly or ask for help, even though everyone else is usually happy to assist them.

Lurker: Someone who "lurks" on a BBS or online service without posting messages or uploading files. Actually, most users are lurkers--the vast majority of messages are posted by a few vociferous folks.

Emotions: These are ASCII graphic faces used to express emotions in online messages. There are probably hundreds of variations, but some of the most common include

:-) Smiley face, used to indicate laughter.

:-( Frowny face, used to indicate disappointment or anger.

:-) Winky face, used to indicate a joke.

:-/ Wry face, used when something's funny in a bad way.

B' Cool shades face, an example of one of many possible variations.

Post: Another word for an online message, as in Did you read Kim's post?

Nets: Networks, used to describe the commercial online services as well as Usenet and BBS networks like WWIV and FidoNet.

Lamer: Someone who only downloads files, never contributing new files to the BBS or service.

Those are just a few of the terms you'll encounter while reading the message bases. Things get really weird, though, when you enter one of the live online chat lines. Chat users have developed an elaborate shorthand system to keep typing to a minimum. Here are just some of the common abbreviations.

BCNU: Be seeing you. Used when you're about to leave a conference. It's considered rude to enter or exit a conference without saying hello or goodbye.

BRB: Be right back. If you're going to be walking away from your computer or temporarily leaving the conference, it's nice to let people know. (Also, AFK: Away from keyboard.)

BTW: By the way.

CU L8TR: See you later. <g>: Grin. Synonymous with :-).

GA: Go ahead. Used after typing a long series of lines to let people know that they can now talk without interrupting you.

LOL: Laughing out loud.

Nytol: Good night, all--not the insomnia remedy.

ReHi: A greeting used when someone leaves a conference and then comes back.

ROTFL: Rolling on the floor laughing. Used after something very funny is said. (Also, the shorter ROTF and OTF.)

RTFM: Read the freaking manual. Used when somebody asks a question that could have been easily answered by checking in the manual.

Spam: Information that might not be legitimate or real, as in This rumor may have a high Spam content.

TINAR: This is not a review. Used before a user-written review on BIX, where the users aren't allowed to post product reviews. Of course, almost everything prefaced by TINAR actually is a review.

TNX: Thanks.

TNX 1.0E6: Thanks a million.

TTYL: Talk (or Type) to you later.

There are lots of other terms and acronyms, some specific to particular online services, but this dictionary should be enough to get you started. BTW, you can contact me on GEnie and BIX as DENNYA, on CompuServe as 75500, 3602, and on People/Link as DENNY. BCNU on the nets.>>


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Mon Feb 28 15:05:11 2005
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:05:11 -0500
Subject: "You're not the boss of me" (1953)
In-Reply-To: <4221FB3D.1030702@haskins.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.100511.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:54 AM 2/27/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>>On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 02:50:14AM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>
>>>There's an alt.usage.english discussion going on about the expression
>>>"You're not the boss of me," popularized since 2000 by the theme song to
>>>the show _Malcolm in the Middle_, performed by They Might Be Giants.
>>>Usenet and Nexis take it back to 1993, but Proquest does better by another
>>>40 years:
>>
>>
>>Great cite.
>>
>>I think the original controversy about the dating of this expression
>>arose after Monica Lewinsky claimed that it was one of her first
>>phrases, that she would say it to her mother with her hands on her
>>hips when she was two years old. There was disbelief about this
>>claim, but now it is lent a little more credence.
>
>I don't recall that particular controversy. However, I'm considerably
>older than ML, and I do recall "you're not the boss of me" being a
>staple part of sibling arguments (right up there with "are too"--"am
>not!") in the late 50s/early 60s.
>
>--
>
>Alice Faber

Me too.  In fact, once in high school I answered the principal's command to
do something or other with just this phrase--and I got away with it!  Years
later, I wondered why I hadn't said "You're not my boss."  I had no idea
the "of me" phrase was so common; my sister said it, but I have no idea
where we picked it up.  This was in the '50s also.


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Mon Feb 28 15:20:05 2005
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:20:05 -0500
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050227162848.01d4b1a8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.102005.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is the Op Ed piece from the NY Times?  No matter, but I didn't get the
impression in the film that Eastwood's character was "translating" the
Yeats poem; he was simply reciting the original English version, since I
remember it well.  Was the book he was holding in that scene the same
Gaelic textbook (or dictionary?) he studied from earlier in the film?  I
didn't look closely, but I assumed he was now simply reading from a
collection of Yeats' poetry.  But he made one big mistake:  He said "And a
small cabin built there"--changing the original infinitive of "[I will] a
small cabin build there, of clay and wattles made" to the past
participle.  Either a slip on Clint's part, or else he thought the book he
read from had a misprint.

In any case, I suspect the Op Ed editor will get a slew (slough?) of letters.

Beverly O'Flanigan (just joshing, as we approach St. Paddy's Day)


At 04:32 PM 2/27/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>Hey Y'all
>
>Irish lingo has been nominated for an Oscar in Million Dollar Baby along
>with the phrase mo chuisle (macushla).
>
>best,
>karen ellis
>
>
>February 26, 2005
>OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
>Fighting Words
>By WES DAVIS
>
>BEFORE the bell has sounded at the start of her first title fight in Clint
>Eastwood's Oscar-nominated film "Million Dollar Baby," the scrappy,
>big-hearted boxer Maggie Fitzgerald, played by Hilary Swank, finds herself
>cheered into the ring by shouts of "Mo Cuishle," the Irish Gaelic moniker
>she's been given by her manager, Frankie Dunn, played by Mr. Eastwood.
>
>The name is a shortened form of the phrase "A chuisle mo chroí," "O, pulse
>of my heart," or as Frankie will put it more concisely, "My darling." But
>Ms. Swank's character doesn't know that yet and neither do we. All we know
>is that the words emblazoned - and some argue misspelled - on the back of
>her robe are important to a lot of people.
>
>Apparently they still are. After seeing the movie, I overheard whispered
>conversations about "Mo Cuishle." A few of the movie goers confessed that
>they hadn't even known there was an Irish language apart from English, but
>they were captivated by the sound of it. In the last few weeks some queries
>about the phrase have arisen on the Internet, and students of the language
>are coming out of the woodwork. Around Valentine's Day, in particular, many
>Web surfers were frantic to learn how to address their darlings in Irish.
>
>That sort of popular reaction makes sense. In the shorthand of the film, the
>Irish, scattered by hardship in their home country but strangely united by
>the trials that threw them apart, stand for a culture of underdogs, and the
>language that was once the common idiom in Ireland becomes the watchword of
>the movie's romantic idea of the hero.
>
>As Maggie's boxing career builds to its climax, Mr. Eastwood hinges the
>movie's emotional peaks on the longing held in the Irish language. The most
>moving of these moments occurs when Mr. Eastwood's character finally reveals
>the meaning of "Mo Cuishle," and when he translates W. B. Yeats's "Lake Isle
>of Innisfree" from the little Irish-language book he carries like a talisman
>throughout the movie.
>
>An achingly beautiful poem, "Lake Isle" expresses a yearning for escape that
>fits perfectly with the movie's hope that it may be possible to build a new
>life. For Yeats, the fantasy retreat is a rustic cabin in a "bee-loud
>glade." In the movie, it's the "little place in the cedars, somewhere
>between nowhere and goodbye," imagined by the character played by Morgan
>Freeman.
>
>Yeats's poem also reflects on the more rugged emotional landscape the film
>exposes. In "Lake Isle," as in "Million Dollar Baby," the dream of escape
>finally slams against the hard facts of real life. The dream can survive, as
>Yeats puts it, only "in the deep heart's core." In the movie, the dream is
>mined by Mr. Eastwood's character when he labors to translate the poem from
>the Gaelic for Maggie. It feels as if he's extracting a gift of hope for her
>out of the bedrock of Ireland's nearly forgotten language.
>
>There's just one hitch: Yeats didn't write his poems in Irish. He didn't
>even know the language well enough to read it.
>
>On the whole, Yeats was less than rigorous in the way he represented his own
>linguistic abilities. He was never fluent in French, for example, but he
>talked breezily about the latest French book once his friends had read it to
>him. Having once made a stab at memorizing the Hebrew alphabet, he would
>later lament having forgotten his Hebrew. But about Irish he was completely
>clear. He tried to learn it, and he failed.
>
>The language issue was a vexed one for Yeats. Like many of his countrymen,
>he was at times drawn to the image of Ireland as a nation speaking its own
>language. He actively promoted dramatic performances in Irish.
>
>But he knew that much of Ireland's literary life, and even more of its
>practical business, had been carried on in English for over a century. When
>Yeats was serving in the Senate of the newly independent Irish Free State in
>1923, he spoke against a proposal that the prayer at the start of every
>session be delivered in Irish as well as English. He protested that the
>Irish prayer was "a childish performance," since, like him, most of the
>senators didn't know the language and were unlikely to learn it.
>
>Later, when the Senate was considering a proposal to add Irish to the
>country's traffic signs and railway notices, he argued against it on similar
>grounds, fearing that forcing the language on people at a moment when they
>just wanted information would hurt the efforts of groups like the Gaelic
>League to preserve Irish and spread its use. In the same session, though, he
>called for government support of scholarship on Irish language and literature.
>
>Strange as the idea would have seemed to him, Yeats almost certainly would
>have supported the translation of his own poems into Irish. Such
>translations do now exist, so it's not impossible to imagine Mr. Eastwood's
>character wrestling an Irish translation back into the original English.
>
>But all of this is ultimately less important to the film than the effect
>"Million Dollar Baby" achieves with its use of Irish. From a cinematic point
>of view, Mr. Eastwood couldn't have done better than to adopt the endangered
>language of a culture whose history has been as dramatic as that of his
>characters. And the wonderful twist of the film's pretense of translating
>"The Lake Isle of Innisfree" from the Irish is that it seems to have done
>just what the Gaelic League and all those Senate proposals, and even the
>contrary Yeats, ultimately wanted. It has stirred up interest in the
>language itself.
>
>Wes Davis, an assistant professor of English at Yale, is editing "The Yale
>Anthology of Contemporary Irish Poetry."
>
>
>
>
><>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
>The Educational CyberPlayGround
>http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/
>
>National Children's Folksong Repository
>http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/
>
>Hot List of Schools Online and
>Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters
>http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/
>
>7 Hot Site Awards
>New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink,
>USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty
><>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Mon Feb 28 15:46:54 2005
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:46:54 -0600
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <4f8f3a56a69a18d0accab737b204d7ff@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.094654.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just a happy accident. My middle name is Overton, but in the "auld"
country my surname was O'Donlon. Both my parents are first generation
Irish-American. My mother's father came into Hoboken and my father's
father came into New Orleans.

sally donlon


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 28 16:03:49 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:03:49 -0800
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.080349.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My comic-strip memories begin about 1954, too late for the characters mentioned,

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Right you are. And, again, I'm surprised by how old the song is. Does
anybody else remember the radio and comic-book character, Hop Harrigan,
his sidekick, whose name I've forgotten (Tank? But I'm probably
confusing him with Tank McNamara), and the gremlin. whose name I've
also forgotten. But I still remember the nickname that Hop gave to the
native girl: "Singsong." Which reminds me, the song title is
"Harrigan," not "Harrington." No wonder that I couldn't match the meter
with the song: "Spell it H, A, dooble R, I, G, A, N ?spells 'Harrigan'?
That's me!"

-Wilson

On Feb 28, 2005, at 7:44 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The song with the clanging symbols is "Macnamara's Band" (1917), by
> Shamus O'Connor & John J. Stamford. Your computer will play the tune
> right here:
>
> http://www.rienzihills.com/SING/macnamarasband.htm
>
> Bing Crosby recorded it during WWII.
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I remember "Macushla" as one of several Irish-themed popular songs of
> my childhood. I had no idea that it was so old. Some others are:
>
> Casey Lowered The Boom
> Christmas In Killarney
> Mother Macree, i.e. Mathair Mo Chroi "Mother, My Heart"
> Derry Air (= Danny Boy)
> Harrington
>
> and a couple of others that I remember only a few words of, e.g.
> "....The drums go banging / The cymbals clanging / The horns they blaze
> away...."
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
> On Feb 27, 2005, at 5:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> You can start diggin' the rockin' sheet music to "Macushla," by
>> Jospehine V. Rowe & Dermot MacMurrough (1910) right here :
>>
>> http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl?
>> record=153.109a.000&pages=5
>>
>> Or if lyrics alone are your bag, check it :
>>
>> Macushla! Macushla! your sweet voice is calling,
>> Calling me softly again and again;
>> Macushla! Macushla! I hear its dear pleading,
>> My blue eyed Macushla, I hear it in vain!
>>
>> Macushla! Macushla! your white arms are reaching,
>> I feel them enfolding, caressing me still!
>> Fling them out from the darkness, my lost love Macushla!
>> Let them find me, and bind me again if they will!
>>
>> Macushla! Macushla! your red lips are saying,
>> That death is a dream and love is for aye;
>> Then awaken Macushla! Awake from your dreaming!
>> My blue eyed Macushla! awaken to
>> stay!
>>
>> (Unlikely to have been on Yeats's hit parade.)
>>
>>
>> JL
>>
>> Educational CyberPlayGround wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround
>> Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Hey Y'all
>>
>> Irish lingo has been nominated for an Oscar in Million Dollar Baby
>> along
>> with the phrase mo chuisle (macushla).
>>
>> best,
>> karen ellis
>>
>>
>> February 26, 2005
>> OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
>> Fighting Words
>> By WES DAVIS
>>
>> BEFORE the bell has sounded at the start of her first title fight in
>> Clint
>> Eastwood's Oscar-nominated film "Million Dollar Baby," the scrappy,
>> big-hearted boxer Maggie Fitzgerald, played by Hilary Swank, finds
>> herself
>> cheered into the ring by shouts of "Mo Cuishle," the Irish Gaelic
>> moniker
>> she's been given by her manager, Frankie Dunn, played by Mr. Eastwood.
>>
>> The name is a shortened form of the phrase "A chuisle mo chro�," "O,
>> pulse
>> of my heart," or as Frankie will put it more concisely, "My darling."
>> But
>> Ms. Swank's character doesn't know that yet and neither do we. All we
>> know
>> is that the words emblazoned - and some argue misspelled - on the back
>> of
>> her robe are important to a lot of people.
>>
>> Apparently they still are. After seeing the movie, I overheard
>> whispered
>> conversations about "Mo Cuishle." A few of the movie goers confessed
>> that
>> they hadn't even known there was an Irish language apart from English,
>> but
>> they were captivated by the sound of it. In the last few weeks some
>> queries
>> about the phrase have arisen on the Internet, and students of the
>> language
>> are coming out of the woodwork. Around Valentine's Day, in particular,
>> many
>> Web surfers were frantic to learn how to address their darlings in
>> Irish.
>>
>> That sort of popular reaction makes sense. In the shorthand of the
>> film, the
>> Irish, scattered by hardship in their home country but strangely
>> united by
>> the trials that threw them apart, stand for a culture of underdogs,
>> and the
>> language that was once the common idiom in Ireland becomes the
>> watchword of
>> the movie's romantic idea of the hero.
>>
>> As Maggie's boxing career builds to its climax, Mr. Eastwood hinges
>> the
>> movie's emotional peaks on the longing held in the Irish language. The
>> most
>> moving of these moments occurs when Mr. Eastwood's character finally
>> reveals
>> the meaning of "Mo Cuishle," and when he translates W. B. Yeats's
>> "Lake Isle
>> of Innisfree" from the little Irish-language book he carries like a
>> talisman
>> throughout the movie.
>>
>> An achingly beautiful poem, "Lake Isle" expresses a yearning for
>> escape that
>> fits perfectly with the movie's hope that it may be possible to build
>> a new
>> life. For Yeats, the fantasy retreat is a rustic cabin in a "bee-loud
>> glade." In the movie, it's the "little place in the cedars, somewhere
>> between nowhere and goodbye," imagined by the character played by
>> Morgan
>> Freeman.
>>
>> Yeats's poem also reflects on the more rugged emotional landscape the
>> film
>> exposes. In "Lake Isle," as in "Million Dollar Baby," the dream of
>> escape
>> finally slams against the hard facts of real life. The dream can
>> survive, as
>> Yeats puts it, only "in the deep heart's core." In the movie, the
>> dream is
>> mined by Mr. Eastwood's character when he labors to translate the poem
>> from
>> the Gaelic for Maggie. It feels as if he's extracting a gift of hope
>> for her
>> out of the bedrock of Ireland's nearly forgotten language.
>>
>> There's just one hitch: Yeats didn't write his poems in Irish. He
>> didn't
>> even know the language well enough to read it.
>>
>> On the whole, Yeats was less than rigorous in the way he represented
>> his own
>> linguistic abilities. He was never fluent in French, for example, but
>> he
>> talked breezily about the latest French book once his friends had read
>> it to
>> him. Having once made a stab at memorizing the Hebrew alphabet, he
>> would
>> later lament having forgotten his Hebrew. But about Irish he was
>> completely
>> clear. He tried to learn it, and he failed.
>>
>> The language issue was a vexed one for Yeats. Like many of his
>> countrymen,
>> he was at times drawn to the image of Ireland as a nation speaking its
>> own
>> language. He actively promoted dramatic performances in Irish.
>>
>> But he knew that much of Ireland's literary life, and even more of its
>> practical business, had been carried on in English for over a century.
>> When
>> Yeats was serving in the Senate of the newly independent Irish Free
>> State in
>> 1923, he spoke against a proposal that the prayer at the start of
>> every
>> session be delivered in Irish as well as English. He protested that
>> the
>> Irish prayer was "a childish performance," since, like him, most of
>> the
>> senators didn't know the language and were unlikely to learn it.
>>
>> Later, when the Senate was considering a proposal to add Irish to the
>> country's traffic signs and railway notices, he argued against it on
>> similar
>> grounds, fearing that forcing the language on people at a moment when
>> they
>> just wanted information would hurt the efforts of groups like the
>> Gaelic
>> League to preserve Irish and spread its use. In the same session,
>> though, he
>> called for government support of scholarship on Irish language and
>> literature.
>>
>> Strange as the idea would have seemed to him, Yeats almost certainly
>> would
>> have supported the translation of his own poems into Irish. Such
>> translations do now exist, so it's not impossible to imagine Mr.
>> Eastwood's
>> character wrestling an Irish translation back into the original
>> English.
>>
>> But all of this is ultimately less important to the film than the
>> effect
>> "Million Dollar Baby" achieves with its use of Irish. From a cinematic
>> point
>> of view, Mr. Eastwood couldn't have done better than to adopt the
>> endangered
>> language of a culture whose history has been as dramatic as that of
>> his
>> characters. And the wonderful twist of the film's pretense of
>> translating
>> "The Lake Isle of Innisfree" from the Irish is that it seems to have
>> done
>> just what the Gaelic League and all those Senate proposals, and even
>> the
>> contrary Yeats, ultimately wanted. It has stirred up interest in the
>> language itself.
>>
>> Wes Davis, an assistant professor of English at Yale, is editing "The
>> Yale
>> Anthology of Contemporary Irish Poetry."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
>> The Educational CyberPlayGround
>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/
>>
>> National Children's Folksong Repository
>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/
>>
>> Hot List of Schools Online and
>> Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters
>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/
>>
>> 7 Hot Site Awards
>> New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink,
>> USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty
>> <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Feb 28 16:08:22 2005
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:08:22 EST
Subject: "Gwine"
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.110822.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"gwine" appears in Stephen Collins Foster's "Camptown Races":
     "Gwine to run all night
       Gwine to run all day..."

During the Civil War there was a song, or perhaps jingle, known as "Jine the
Cavalry".  It was, I believe, popular among Jeb Stuart's Confederate cavalry.
Note that in this case is is /oin/ rather than /oing/ that is rendered /ine/.

I have no further evidence whatsoever, but the existence of these two
phonetic items in mid-Nineteenth Century Southern (or pseudo-Southern) songs suggests
that /oin/ --> /ine/ was fairly common among Southerners (whites?  blacks?),
or perhaps was merely a common convention among Southern song-writers.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A few days ago Wilson Gray quoted the following two-liner:
     Square: Crosstown bus pass this way?
     Hipster: Doo-dah

Stephen Collins Foster is hip?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Off-topic:

Is it only in New Jersey, or is it a worldwide phenomenon amongst the
English-language press, that the Pope is said to have had a "tracheotomy" rather than
a "tracheostomy"?

The Philadelphia Inquirer recently, discussing a sex scandal in the
Pennsylvania State Police, referred in a sub-head to "the scandalized State Police".

A karaoke version of "Impossible Dream" contains the following transcription
error, which rather reverses the meaning:
       To fight for the right
       Without question or cause

An African-American seventh grader informs me that natives of sub-Saharan
Africa should be referred to not as "blacks" but as "African-Americans."

           - James A. Landau


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Feb 28 16:56:56 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:56:56 -0600
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.105656.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the song "Rock On" by David Essex (1973), I hear it pronounced "Rawk
on".


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Feb 28 16:58:01 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:58:01 -0800
Subject: ice box (was: obsolescene [was church key])
In-Reply-To: <l03130302be47a7aeaf6a@[12.107.141.65]>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.085801.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We never had the kind of ice box where an ice man came to replenish the
ice, but we always called our refrigerator an ice box.  I switched to
"fridge" only much later in life.  Like Alison, I still catch myself saying
it sometimes, and producing "fridge" often requires a pause for
"translation."

Peter Mc.

--On Sunday, February 27, 2005 12:02 PM -0500 sagehen
<sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:

>> In my day, ice was delivered by the ice man, a system well-attested in
>> various blues songs through the ''50's. There was a sign that was
>> placed in a front window to let the ice man know how many pounds of ice
>> were wanted. I learned "figidaire" first. My grandmother in Texas had a
>> General Electric frigidaire. When we moved to St. Louis, we at first
>> couldn't afford a frigidaire. So, we got an icebox.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>> ~~~~~~~~~~
> We, too, had an icebox, which was retired to the back porch and used as a
> cupboard when we got a monitor-top GE refrigerator.  I still hear myself
> saying "icebox" instead of "fridge," at times.  "Frigidaire" wasn't the
> the GE brand...might have been Westinghouse's (or poss. GM's?).
> The iceman continued to visit our street through most of the '30s.  The
> sign the householder put in the front window had the amounts wanted
> printed in different orientations; it was turned so that the one wanted
> was at the top.
> A. Murie



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM  Mon Feb 28 17:03:27 2005
From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:03:27 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.120327.0500.ABARAGONA@SPRYNET.COM>

It might be worth pointing out that Alexander Pope and other 18th-century
writers rhyme words like "join" and "pine," so it's perfectly possible that
Southern Americans with British heritage would have pronounced <oi> as [ai]
and passed this pronunciation along to their slaves.

----- Original Message -----
From: "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: "Gwine"


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> "gwine" appears in Stephen Collins Foster's "Camptown Races":
>      "Gwine to run all night
>        Gwine to run all day..."
>
> During the Civil War there was a song, or perhaps jingle, known as "Jine
the
> Cavalry".  It was, I believe, popular among Jeb Stuart's Confederate
cavalry.
> Note that in this case is is /oin/ rather than /oing/ that is rendered
/ine/.
>
> I have no further evidence whatsoever, but the existence of these two
> phonetic items in mid-Nineteenth Century Southern (or pseudo-Southern)
songs suggests
> that /oin/ --> /ine/ was fairly common among Southerners (whites?
blacks?),
> or perhaps was merely a common convention among Southern song-writers.
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> A few days ago Wilson Gray quoted the following two-liner:
>      Square: Crosstown bus pass this way?
>      Hipster: Doo-dah
>
> Stephen Collins Foster is hip?
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Off-topic:
>
> Is it only in New Jersey, or is it a worldwide phenomenon amongst the
> English-language press, that the Pope is said to have had a "tracheotomy"
rather than
> a "tracheostomy"?
>
> The Philadelphia Inquirer recently, discussing a sex scandal in the
> Pennsylvania State Police, referred in a sub-head to "the scandalized
State Police".
>
> A karaoke version of "Impossible Dream" contains the following
transcription
> error, which rather reverses the meaning:
>        To fight for the right
>        Without question or cause
>
> An African-American seventh grader informs me that natives of sub-Saharan
> Africa should be referred to not as "blacks" but as "African-Americans."
>
>            - James A. Landau
>


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Feb 28 17:01:59 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:01:59 -0600
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.110159.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> Which reminds me, the song title is
> "Harrigan," not "Harrington." No wonder that I couldn't match
> the meter with the song: "Spell it H, A, dooble R, I, G, A, N
> ?spells 'Harrigan'? That's me!"


My level of cultural sophistication isn't as advanced; I only know the
lyrics as "G, I, double L, I, G, A, N spells Gilligan" from the TV show.

And I can't here the music to "Barber of Seville" without a mental image
of Bugs Bunny giving Elmer Fudd a haircut.


From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM  Mon Feb 28 17:14:18 2005
From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:14:18 -0500
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <200502280740714.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.121418.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Is the Op Ed piece from the NY Times?

yup

OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
Fighting Words
By WES DAVIS
Published: February 26, 2005
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/26/opinion/26davis.html

karen

>Beverly O'Flanigan (just joshing, as we approach St. Paddy's Day)
>
>At 04:32 PM 2/27/2005 -0500, you wrote:
> >Hey Y'all
> >
> >Irish lingo has been nominated for an Oscar in Million Dollar Baby along
> >with the phrase mo chuisle (macushla).
> >
> >best,
> >karen ellis
> >
> >
> >February 26, 2005
> >OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
> >Fighting Words
> >By WES DAVIS
> >
> >BEFORE the bell has sounded at the start of her first title fight in Clint
> >Eastwood's Oscar-nominated film "Million Dollar Baby," the scrappy,
> >big-hearted boxer Maggie Fitzgerald, played by Hilary Swank, finds herself
> >cheered into the ring by shouts of "Mo Cuishle," the Irish Gaelic moniker
> >she's been given by her manager, Frankie Dunn, played by Mr. Eastwood.
> >snip<

<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
The Educational CyberPlayGround
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/

National Children's Folksong Repository
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/

Hot List of Schools Online and
Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/

7 Hot Site Awards
New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink,
USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty
<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>


From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU  Mon Feb 28 17:57:09 2005
From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:57:09 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.125709.0500.PAUL.JOHNSTON@WMICH.EDU>

"Gwine" (or phonemically spelled "gwain", but pronunced [gwaIn] in many
dialects) is common in the Ellis (1889) and Survey of English Dialects
(1962-69) data, with a Southwestern English distribution.  Not only did many
English Southwesterners come to settle in the American South (esp. South
Carolina and the Caribbean), but a lot of slave ships operated out of
Southwestern-speaking ports (Bristol, Southampton, Portsmouth, Plymouth).
Either way--and whether you buy the Anglicist or Creolist hypotheses for the
genesis of AAVE, and "gwine" is usual in Gullah and Caribbean Creoles (if
not in African ones)--it could have been part of the English lexifier
dialect of Creoles, AND a part of early (White) Settler English quite
easily.
Same with the merger of LOIN/LINE under the latter, which is not only well
attested in 17c/18c Standard varieties, but is found in a wide variety of
English dialects, including some Southwestern ones (and Scots also).  In
fact, quite a few AAVE and Southern features are found in SW English
generally--and this is coming from someone who mostly buys the Creolist
hypothesis, so I tend to see SW English as a lexifier/donor dialect, later
reinforcing these features on these shores.

Yours,
Paul Johnston
Western Michigan University


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Feb 28 18:24:17 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:24:17 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <003d01c51dbe$edada8a0$2da06cc6@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.132417.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And don't forget "roil" --> "rile," which is in fact the more common
pronunciation for most of us today (except for the NY Times, which insists
on spelling it "roil").

At 12:57 PM 2/28/2005, you wrote:
>"Gwine" (or phonemically spelled "gwain", but pronunced [gwaIn] in many
>dialects) is common in the Ellis (1889) and Survey of English Dialects
>(1962-69) data, with a Southwestern English distribution.  Not only did many
>English Southwesterners come to settle in the American South (esp. South
>Carolina and the Caribbean), but a lot of slave ships operated out of
>Southwestern-speaking ports (Bristol, Southampton, Portsmouth, Plymouth).
>Either way--and whether you buy the Anglicist or Creolist hypotheses for the
>genesis of AAVE, and "gwine" is usual in Gullah and Caribbean Creoles (if
>not in African ones)--it could have been part of the English lexifier
>dialect of Creoles, AND a part of early (White) Settler English quite
>easily.
>Same with the merger of LOIN/LINE under the latter, which is not only well
>attested in 17c/18c Standard varieties, but is found in a wide variety of
>English dialects, including some Southwestern ones (and Scots also).  In
>fact, quite a few AAVE and Southern features are found in SW English
>generally--and this is coming from someone who mostly buys the Creolist
>hypothesis, so I tend to see SW English as a lexifier/donor dialect, later
>reinforcing these features on these shores.
>
>Yours,
>Paul Johnston
>Western Michigan University


From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Feb 28 18:44:55 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:44:55 +0100
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <20050228182513.60D79D37@post.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.194455.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> And don't forget "roil" --> "rile," which is in fact the more common
> pronunciation for most of us today (except for the NY Times, which
> insists on spelling it "roil").
> >Paul Johnston
> >Western Michigan University

It does?

Mr. Brus's recent drawings, made with considerable skill and including
handwritten poetic texts, hark back to a time early in the 20th century
when blasphemy and images of sexual decadence could still rile up the
bourgeoisie.
NYT, February 11, 2005

I think I've seen both roil and rile in the Times.

Paul
________________________
Paul Frank
Chinese-English translator
paulfrank at post.harvard.edu
http://languagejottings.blogspot.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Feb 28 19:26:38 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:26:38 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <1109616295.5481.216210628@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.142638.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:44 PM +0100 2/28/05, Paul Frank wrote:
>  > And don't forget "roil" --> "rile," which is in fact the more common
>>  pronunciation for most of us today (except for the NY Times, which
>>  insists on spelling it "roil").
>>  >Paul Johnston
>>  >Western Michigan University
>
>It does?
>
>Mr. Brus's recent drawings, made with considerable skill and including
>handwritten poetic texts, hark back to a time early in the 20th century
>when blasphemy and images of sexual decadence could still rile up the
>bourgeoisie.
>NYT, February 11, 2005
>
>I think I've seen both roil and rile in the Times.
>
For the previous two years, using Full Text option on Nexis:

roil  134
rile    67

Confirming Paul F's point--a 2:1 ratio doesn't seem like a stylistic
"insist"ence.

larry


From preston at MSU.EDU  Mon Feb 28 19:33:59 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:33:59 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <p04320407be4920335d61@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.143359.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What makes you guys think that the NYTimes doesn't think these are
two different lexical items?

dInIs



>At 7:44 PM +0100 2/28/05, Paul Frank wrote:
>>  > And don't forget "roil" --> "rile," which is in fact the more common
>>>  pronunciation for most of us today (except for the NY Times, which
>>>  insists on spelling it "roil").
>>>  >Paul Johnston
>>>  >Western Michigan University
>>
>>It does?
>>
>>Mr. Brus's recent drawings, made with considerable skill and including
>>handwritten poetic texts, hark back to a time early in the 20th century
>>when blasphemy and images of sexual decadence could still rile up the
>>bourgeoisie.
>>NYT, February 11, 2005
>>
>>I think I've seen both roil and rile in the Times.
>>
>For the previous two years, using Full Text option on Nexis:
>
>roil  134
>rile    67
>
>Confirming Paul F's point--a 2:1 ratio doesn't seem like a stylistic
>"insist"ence.
>
>larry


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 21:52:08 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:52:08 -0500
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <E1D5mc4-0007am-00@mx09.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.165208.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My memory is a bit fuzzy on this. But, now that you mention it,
"Clancy" does seem to be the correct name. I'm probably mixing up the
boom-lowerer with "Casey, Crime Photographer," also of radio days.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 28, 2005, at 10:15 AM, Jim Parish wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jim Parish <jparish at SIUE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson Gray mentions:
>> Casey Lowered The Boom
>
> Is it Casey? I remember it as Clancy: "Whenever he gets his irish up /
> Clancy lowers the boom!"
>
> Jim Parish
>


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Mon Feb 28 22:07:26 2005
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:07:26 -0600
Subject: [was church key]/ice box
In-Reply-To: <p04320400be48dce8edae@[130.132.231.182]>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.160726.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Anyone else grow up in apartment buildings where there was an access
door from the outside direct to the icebox, so iceman didn't have to
come in the house?  Do you remember forgetting to empty the drain pan
and having water all over the kitchen floor?.
How many kids did you know who stabbed themselves with the family
icepick?  And in the summertime, the delights of a sawdust covered ice
chip from the iceman's wagon?

>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 22:05:42 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:05:42 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <E1D5nRg-0007Lw-00@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.170542.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think that we'd be safe assuming "goin" instead of "going" as our
source for "gwine," And how about "bile" for "boil"? We probably could
come up with several more, if we put our moinds to it. ;-)

-Wilson

On Feb 28, 2005, at 11:08 AM, James A. Landau wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "gwine" appears in Stephen Collins Foster's "Camptown Races":
>      "Gwine to run all night
>        Gwine to run all day..."
>
> During the Civil War there was a song, or perhaps jingle, known as
> "Jine the
> Cavalry".  It was, I believe, popular among Jeb Stuart's Confederate
> cavalry.
> Note that in this case is is /oin/ rather than /oing/ that is rendered
> /ine/.
>
> I have no further evidence whatsoever, but the existence of these two
> phonetic items in mid-Nineteenth Century Southern (or pseudo-Southern)
> songs suggests
> that /oin/ --> /ine/ was fairly common among Southerners (whites?
> blacks?),
> or perhaps was merely a common convention among Southern song-writers.
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> A few days ago Wilson Gray quoted the following two-liner:
>      Square: Crosstown bus pass this way?
>      Hipster: Doo-dah
>
> Stephen Collins Foster is hip?
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Off-topic:
>
> Is it only in New Jersey, or is it a worldwide phenomenon amongst the
> English-language press, that the Pope is said to have had a
> "tracheotomy" rather than
> a "tracheostomy"?
>
> The Philadelphia Inquirer recently, discussing a sex scandal in the
> Pennsylvania State Police, referred in a sub-head to "the scandalized
> State Police".
>
> A karaoke version of "Impossible Dream" contains the following
> transcription
> error, which rather reverses the meaning:
>        To fight for the right
>        Without question or cause
>
> An African-American seventh grader informs me that natives of
> sub-Saharan
> Africa should be referred to not as "blacks" but as
> "African-Americans."
>
>            - James A. Landau
>


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Mon Feb 28 22:23:43 2005
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:23:43 -0600
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <4f8f3a56a69a18d0accab737b204d7ff@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.162343.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Don't forget:
Who put the overalls in Mrs Murphy's  chowder.
The wearing of the green
Johnson's motorcar.
Irish Soldier Boy
Wrap the green flag around me
Rifles of the I.R.A.
Black and Tans
The Rebel Jesus
Johnnie I hardly knew you
And one my grandfather used to sing, forgotten the title but it was
about the English being the first Egyptians
Lines like "it must have been the British that built the pyramids
because the Irish were the only ones strong enough to lift the bricks'
and "it must have been the Irish that swam the river Nile, because
they're the only ones that could fight the crocodile"

>


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Feb 28 22:29:19 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:29:19 -0600
Subject: "Gwine"
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.162919.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bile that cabbidge down, boys
Bile that cabbidge down

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 4:06 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "Gwine"

>
> I think that we'd be safe assuming "goin" instead of "going"
> as our source for "gwine," And how about "bile" for "boil"?
> We probably could come up with several more, if we put our
> moinds to it. ;-)
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 22:29:28 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:29:28 -0500
Subject: ice box (was: obsolescene [was church key])
In-Reply-To: <E1D5oUU-00024A-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.172928.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I used to wonder whether "Frigidaire" or "refigerator" was the source
of "fridge." After consulting many English-French dictionaries and
seeing many French movies wherein "refrigerator" is translated by
"frigidaire," and the fact that my mother and my grandmother *always*
used "frigidaire" and never "fridge" for any brand of refrigerator, my
vote is for the brand name as the source.

-Wilson

On Feb 28, 2005, at 11:58 AM, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: ice box (was: obsolescene [was church key])
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> We never had the kind of ice box where an ice man came to replenish the
> ice, but we always called our refrigerator an ice box.  I switched to
> "fridge" only much later in life.  Like Alison, I still catch myself
> saying
> it sometimes, and producing "fridge" often requires a pause for
> "translation."
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> --On Sunday, February 27, 2005 12:02 PM -0500 sagehen
> <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:
>
>>> In my day, ice was delivered by the ice man, a system well-attested
>>> in
>>> various blues songs through the ''50's. There was a sign that was
>>> placed in a front window to let the ice man know how many pounds of
>>> ice
>>> were wanted. I learned "figidaire" first. My grandmother in Texas
>>> had a
>>> General Electric frigidaire. When we moved to St. Louis, we at first
>>> couldn't afford a frigidaire. So, we got an icebox.
>>>
>>> -Wilson Gray
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~
>> We, too, had an icebox, which was retired to the back porch and used
>> as a
>> cupboard when we got a monitor-top GE refrigerator.  I still hear
>> myself
>> saying "icebox" instead of "fridge," at times.  "Frigidaire" wasn't
>> the
>> the GE brand...might have been Westinghouse's (or poss. GM's?).
>> The iceman continued to visit our street through most of the '30s.
>> The
>> sign the householder put in the front window had the amounts wanted
>> printed in different orientations; it was turned so that the one
>> wanted
>> was at the top.
>> A. Murie
>
>
>
> *****************************************************************
> Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 22:59:52 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:59:52 -0500
Subject: [was church key]/ice box
In-Reply-To: <E1D5t1R-00027J-00@mx03.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.175952.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 28, 2005, at 5:07 PM, paulzjoh wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       paulzjoh <paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM>
> Subject:      [was church key]/ice box
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Anyone else grow up in apartment buildings where there was an access
> door from the outside direct to the icebox, so iceman didn't have to
> come in the house?  Do you remember forgetting to empty the drain pan
> and having water all over the kitchen floor?

Forgetting to empty the drain pan? Sigh! Only too well.

> How many kids did you know who stabbed themselves with the family
> icepick?

Icepick? Reminds me of an old Redd Foxx bit:

"White folk be sayin' that colored men always be carryin' knives.
That's a damn lie!"
[Wait a beat.]
"I been carryin' a icepick for the past thirty years."

>   And in the summertime, the delights of a sawdust covered ice
> chip from the iceman's wagon?

The wagon was pulled by a horse, right? In St. Louis, the iceman
covered his ice with a heavy tarp and not sawdust. That way, we knew
that the ice chips were always sterile. (Yeah. Right.)

-Wilson

>
>>
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 23:20:45 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:20:45 -0500
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <E1D5tGo-0000oO-00@mx09.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.182045.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 28, 2005, at 5:23 PM, paulzjoh wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       paulzjoh <paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Don't forget:
> Who put the overalls in Mrs Murphy's  chowder.
> The wearing of the green

A fellow G.I. and former high-school classmate used to sing the "The
Wearing ..." under his breath as we marched off to a day's training. I
really enjoyed the pun. (During basic infantry training, you gotta grab
all the gusto you can.) As some will recall, the Army wore green and
not camo, back in the day.

-Wilson Gray

> Johnson's motorcar.
> Irish Soldier Boy
> Wrap the green flag around me
> Rifles of the I.R.A.
> Black and Tans
> The Rebel Jesus
> Johnnie I hardly knew you
> And one my grandfather used to sing, forgotten the title but it was
> about the English being the first Egyptians
> Lines like "it must have been the British that built the pyramids
> because the Irish were the only ones strong enough to lift the bricks'
> and "it must have been the Irish that swam the river Nile, because
> they're the only ones that could fight the crocodile"
>
>>
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 23:28:43 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:28:43 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <E1D5tOM-0005XQ-00@mx20.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.182843.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 28, 2005, at 5:29 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Bile that cabbidge down, boys
> Bile that cabbidge down

Lay that pistol down, babe
Lay that pistol down
Pistol-packin' mama
Lay that pistol down

"Pistol-Packin' Mama," a popular song of the '40's, younguns, appears
to be a rip-off of "Bile that Cabbidge."

-Wilson

>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society
>> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray
>> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 4:06 PM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: "Gwine"
>
>>
>> I think that we'd be safe assuming "goin" instead of "going"
>> as our source for "gwine," And how about "bile" for "boil"?
>> We probably could come up with several more, if we put our
>> moinds to it. ;-)
>>
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 00:13:51 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:13:51 -0800
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.161351.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Didn't Germaine Greer start the discusion in 1970 in "The Female Eunuch" ?

As for "frottist," it's not in the OED (got that, Jesse?) but its august pages do contain the synonymous "frotteur," and will tell you all you might wish to know on the subject.

JL

Susan Tamasi <stamasi at LINGUO.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Susan Tamasi
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was wondering if anyone could suggest some good articles to be used in a
discussion of euphemism or slang and sex/gender/sexuality. The specific
focus is open, but I'll mostly be discussing how terms for sex and sexuality
reflect a different view of men and women, such as playa vs. slut, or having
dozens of terms for male masturbation vs. about three for women, or why
slang terms for female genitalia are so much "dirtier" than for male
genitalia.

Also, can anyone give me a definition of "frottist"?

Thanks,
Susan

Susan Tamasi
Visiting Assistant Professor
Program in Linguistics
Emory University
404-727-7843


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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 00:17:40 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:17:40 -0800
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.161740.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That's "discussion" for all you obsessive compulsives.  Not that replying to my own posts counts as O-C.

JL

Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Jonathan Lighter
Subject: Re: articles on euphemisms for sex
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Didn't Germaine Greer start the discusion in 1970 in "The Female Eunuch" ?

As for "frottist," it's not in the OED (got that, Jesse?) but its august pages do contain the synonymous "frotteur," and will tell you all you might wish to know on the subject.

JL

Susan Tamasi wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Susan Tamasi
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was wondering if anyone could suggest some good articles to be used in a
discussion of euphemism or slang and sex/gender/sexuality. The specific
focus is open, but I'll mostly be discussing how terms for sex and sexuality
reflect a different view of men and women, such as playa vs. slut, or having
dozens of terms for male masturbation vs. about three for women, or why
slang terms for female genitalia are so much "dirtier" than for male
genitalia.

Also, can anyone give me a definition of "frottist"?

Thanks,
Susan

Susan Tamasi
Visiting Assistant Professor
Program in Linguistics
Emory University
404-727-7843


---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Feb  1 00:24:21 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:24:21 -0500
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
In-Reply-To: <47f243c441792055d1b51ea9e1a1f954@worldnewyork.org>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.192421.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>It's usually "frotteurist," less rarely "frotterist" or "frottist":
>someone who takes an erotic thrill from rubbing others in a sexual way,
>usually in public and usually unbeknownst to, or out of control of, the
>frottee. From the French verb "frotter," 'to rub or rub against," I
>believe.

I would prefer "frotteur" for the person doing the frottage. Wikipedia
agrees with me as does RHUD. Presumably "frottist" is an exact synonym.

-- Doug Wilson


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Feb  1 00:25:43 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:25:43 -0800
Subject: diffuse/ defuse
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.162543.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry, I had a milllion messages in my box when I arrived at the office this morning--I should have read thru them before I replied to yours.
Fritz

>>> wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM 01/31/05 03:42PM >>>
I've already answered this one, Fritz....

JL

FRITZ JUENGLING <juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING
Subject: Re: diffuse/ defuse
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Didn't she say anything about 'write word'?

>>> wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM 01/29/05 02:58PM >>>
These verbs are increasingly confused in writing, with "defuse" threatening to oust the other.

Anyone else notice this?

I gave a high school English teacher the following inquisitorial test:

"Which is the write word? 'The ghostly vapor was slowly (diffused / defused) throughout the haunted tax office.'"

She immediately selected "defused" as correct. Under further inquisition she confessed that "diffused" just looked wrong."

E pede Herculem,

JL

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From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Feb  1 00:31:38 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:31:38 -0500
Subject: medicine show (1887)
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.193138.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Every evening at the tabernacle.  Indian acts every night; also lectures
and specialties.  Crowded houses and everybody pleased.  Dr. Frost and the
Indians will remain in Decatur several weeks.  Indian remedies give good
satisfaction.
"The Medicine Show," _Decatur Daily Review_, April 27, 1887, p 2


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Feb  1 00:35:48 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 19:35:48 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <20050131235951.81907.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.193548.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>So the big question is where to put the cross reference.  I guess it
>should be at "woof" and all cites at "wolf" - even though most of the
>published ones will be spelled "woof."

Why would the published ones be spelled "woof"? I never saw it spelled that
way in a book AFAIK.

Google shows "wolf ticket" outnumbering "woof ticket" on the Web.

N'archive shows > 100 examples with "wolf", zero with "woof".

What I want to know is whether the expression has a fixed definite meaning,
or group of meanings. I can't find it in my dictionaries at a glance, and I
don't trust "Urbandictionary" et al. I've taken it to mean
"falsehood"/"bullshit" but in some cases I couldn't tell.

-- Doug Wilson


From dave at WILTON.NET  Tue Feb  1 01:09:09 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:09:09 -0800
Subject: Per Vehicles
In-Reply-To: <20050201001740.78834.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.170909.0800.>

This is probably just a typo and not a linguistic trend, but I noted today
that one sign on the carpool lane of highway I-880 South in Fremont, CA
reads:

"Carpool is 2 persons per vehicles."

All the other signs I have seen (including the sign on the opposite side
facing I-880 North) use the singular "vehicle". What's really odd is that I
assume these signs are made in batches, but this appears to be the only one
with the plural "vehicles." Perhaps there are some others scattered across
California. The sign is identical to the others, with the exception of the
plural.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 01:59:47 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:59:47 -0800
Subject: "novel" = book-length prose account
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.175947.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This has been discussed before, but here is an indisputable citation from a professor of English literature.


"[Philip] Caputo's novel ["A Rumor of War"] is arguably the best US novel of the Vietnam War.  A USMC officer in the first US Marine brigade to arrive in Danang, Caputo's experience mirrors that of the whole country in the late 60's.
"Paper Two due at the end of this novel"

            ---Richard Schumaker, University of Maryland, European Division. http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~rschumak/    (then press "war and literature").

"A Rumor of War" (1977) is an autobiographical account, catalogued by the L of C under "Biography" and "Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975, Personal narratives--American."

JL







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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  1 03:04:57 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:04:57 -0500
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
In-Reply-To: <E1Cvk5k-0004na-00@mx13.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.220457.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You guys must be a little bit on the young side. Or perhaps you aren't
fortunate enough to have had a psychiatric social worker as a mother.
There is much knowledge to be gleaned from even the most casual perusal
of the library of such a person.

In the '40's, "frotteur" was the only term used for a male of this
persuasion in books easily available to the enquiring mind of your
humble correspondent. In like manner, "frotteuse" was the term applied
to a "common night walker" whose specialty was, well, the hand job.
Apparently, if memory serves, this erotic specialty was already a dying
art in its death throes, even in those days, in the United States, at
least. Probably as a consequence of the Yankee "can-do" attitude that
introduced the concept "do-it-yourself" to the world. These same books
used the terms "cunnilinctus" and "anilinctus" instead of "cunnilingus"
and "anilingus." They also introduced me to "irrumation" and related
terms, which are in the on-line OED, but are missing from the 1971
edition of the unabridged RHD, the most recent such hard-copy
dictionary to which I have easy access.

-Wilson Gray


On Jan 31, 2005, at 5:32 PM, Grant Barrett wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Grant Barrett <gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG>
> Subject:      Re: articles on euphemisms for sex
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Jan 31, 2005, at 17:03, Susan Tamasi wrote:
>> Also, can anyone give me a definition of "frottist"?
>
> It's usually "frotteurist," less rarely "frotterist" or "frottist":
> someone who takes an erotic thrill from rubbing others in a sexual way,
> usually in public and usually unbeknownst to, or out of control of, the
> frottee. From the French verb "frotter," 'to rub or rub against," I
> believe.
>
> Google "frotteurist" for more than you ever wanted to know about it.
> The Wikipedia entry is decent:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frottage_%28sexology%29
>
> Grant Barrett
> gbarrett at worldnewyork.org
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  1 03:07:27 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:07:27 -0500
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
In-Reply-To: <20050201001352.93779.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.220727.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:13 PM -0800 1/31/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Didn't Germaine Greer start the discusion in 1970 in "The Female Eunuch" ?
>
>As for "frottist," it's not in the OED (got that, Jesse?) but its
>august pages do contain the synonymous "frotteur," and will tell you
>all you might wish to know on the subject.
>
>JL

In French, of course, those who do so and are of the female
persuasion are "frotteuses" rather than "frotteurs", but this
distinction tends not to be retained in English (to judge from both
my intuition and google).  "Masseuse" gets regularized in the
opposite direction; I've noticed many a reference to a "male
masseuse".  Markedness strikes again!

Larry, who has certainly encountered web sites with a LOT more than
three terms for female masturbation, although how many of them are in
regular use is not clear (to me, anyway).  Cf. e.g.
http://www.worldwidewank.com/synonyms3.html for a hundred or so, or
just google "female masturbation terms" for other lists.  Granted,
some of the lingo seems a bit...recherch?.

>
>Susan Tamasi <stamasi at LINGUO.NET> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Susan Tamasi
>Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I was wondering if anyone could suggest some good articles to be used in a
>discussion of euphemism or slang and sex/gender/sexuality. The specific
>focus is open, but I'll mostly be discussing how terms for sex and sexuality
>reflect a different view of men and women, such as playa vs. slut, or having
>dozens of terms for male masturbation vs. about three for women, or why
>slang terms for female genitalia are so much "dirtier" than for male
>genitalia.
>
>Also, can anyone give me a definition of "frottist"?
>
>Thanks,
>Susan
>
>Susan Tamasi
>Visiting Assistant Professor
>Program in Linguistics
>Emory University
>404-727-7843
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From Larry at SCROGGS.COM  Tue Feb  1 03:25:59 2005
From: Larry at SCROGGS.COM (Larry Scroggs)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:25:59 -0700
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.202559.0700.LARRY@SCROGGS.COM>

----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan Lighter
To: larry at scroggs.com
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: Children's chant


What were those different versions of "Inky Dinky," Larry?  And where did
you hear about them.
  I am looking into the origins and career of this very song.

JL

Larry Scroggs <larry at SCROGGS.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Larry Scroggs
Subject: Children's chant
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---

Heard at my school in the late 1950s.

Whistle while you work
Khrushchev is a jerk
Eisenhower's got the power
But it doesn't work.

I scream
You scream
We all scream
For ice cream

The first Marine went over the wall
Parle vous
The second Marine went over the wall
Parle vous
The third Marine went over the wall
Got hit in the ass by a cannon ball
Inkey dinkey parle vous
(There were several different verses of this)

Larry
Larry at Scroggs.com

Jonathan

I'm a military brat and I first recall singing these in seventh and eighth
grade when we were stationed at an Air Force base in northern Maine in the
late 50s. This was pretty risque language for us back then and we were
careful where we sang the verses. I particularly remember singing them on
Scout trips. All of our Scout leaders were military men and usually didn't
say much about our language. However they were irritated when we repeated
the verses over and over again. (grin) The verses are obviously military in
origin and and as I recall we just learned them from each other. They were
just verses that kids taught each other. Here are some more I can recall but
I'm sure there were many others. It has been almost fifty years ago.

The first Marine climbed up the tree
Parlez vous
The second Marine climbed up the tree
Parlez vous
The third Marine climbed up the tree
Got stung on the ass by a bumble bee
Inkey dinkey parlez vous

The first Marine he found the bean
Parlez vous
The second Marine he cooked the bean
Parlez vous
The third Marine he ate the bean
And shit all over the submarine
Inkey dinkey parlez vous

The first Marine went over the wall
Parlez vous
The second Marine went over the wall
Parlez vous
The third Marine he stayed behind
Fucked the girls and drank the wine
Inkey dinkey parlez vous

Larry
Larry at Scroggs.com


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  1 03:46:12 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:46:12 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <E1Cvm17-0002Ti-00@mx17.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.224612.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Back in the day - mid '60's - when this was a relatively (I never
really dug this expression) active part of my vocabulary, it meant
roughly "to make an empty threat designed to frighten away the unhip."
It's easy to see how this could come to mean to bullshit someone.

  BTW, by this time, in L.A., at least, "square" had ceased to be a word
applied to the unhip in general. Rather, it was applied to those unhip
to whatever the speaker was hip to. Those in the (sporting) life
referred to all others in the demimonde as "squares." Dealers referred
to users as squares. Dopers referred to winos as squares. Winos
referred to dopers as squares.

The hip may recall Richard Pryor's bit in which a wino downs a doper by
saying him, "That narcotic done rendered your ass null and void." (It
helps if you're old enough to remember: "Do not fold, spindle, or
mutilate! Any such action will render this instrument null and void."
Or words to that effect.)

-Wilson Gray


On Jan 31, 2005, at 7:35 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
> Subject:      Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> So the big question is where to put the cross reference.  I guess it
>> should be at "woof" and all cites at "wolf" - even though most of the
>> published ones will be spelled "woof."
>
> Why would the published ones be spelled "woof"? I never saw it spelled
> that
> way in a book AFAIK.
>
> Google shows "wolf ticket" outnumbering "woof ticket" on the Web.
>
> N'archive shows > 100 examples with "wolf", zero with "woof".
>
> What I want to know is whether the expression has a fixed definite
> meaning,
> or group of meanings. I can't find it in my dictionaries at a glance,
> and I
> don't trust "Urbandictionary" et al. I've taken it to mean
> "falsehood"/"bullshit" but in some cases I couldn't tell.
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Feb  1 03:46:17 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:46:17 EST
Subject: "Why make one woman miserable?" (1929, 1937, 1943?)
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.224617.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It's the classic statement for bachelorhood. Why make one woman miserable  
when you can make a hundred women happy?
...
Except in my case. Why make one woman miserable when you can make no woman  
miserable?
...
The line was widely heard in the 1960s. I remember it attached to Joe  Namath 
of the New York Jets.
...
It appears to have come from the movies. (I don't have the scripts before  
me.) THE LAST OF MRS. CHEYNEY was made in 1929 and again in 1937. HEAVEN CAN  
WAIT was made in 1943. It appears that both movies used the line, with HEAVEN  
CAN WAIT giving it the form that it popularly has.
...
...
...
(GOOGLE)
_Quotes_ (http://xepher.net/~dcbueller/quotes.htm) 
... I think I know where  my bad memory comes from, hehe. Why make one  woman
miserable when you can make thousands happy? - Anonymous  ... 
xepher.net/~dcbueller/quotes.htm - 25k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:kcYgPkHjj3kJ:xepher.net/~dcbueller/quotes.htm+"one+woman+miserable"&
hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:xepher.net/~dcbueller/quotes.htm)  
...
(GOOGLE)
_One-Liner Archive 1_ (http://www.mcewan001.freeserve.co.uk/oneline.html) 
... Why get  married and make one woman miserable, when you can stay  foot 
loose
and fancy free and make thousands fuckin' miserable! ...  
www.mcewan001.freeserve.co.uk/oneline.html - 56k -  Supplemental Result - 
_Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Wh3MEnv21FsJ:www.mcewan001.freeserve.co.uk/oneline.html+"one+woman+miserable"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.mcewan001.frees
erve.co.uk/oneline.html)  
..
...
(GOOGLE)
_http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/english/ma/marrying.html
_ 
(http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/english/ma/marrying.html) 
...
By marrying I can make only one woman miserable. (_The Last of Mrs. Cheyney_ 
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=icongroupinterna&keyword
=Last of Mrs. Cheyney, The&mode=dvd) ; writing credit: Hanns Kr?; Frederick  
Lonsdale)
...
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
     _Nevada State Journal _ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=thiGuD36VKiKID/6NLMW2k+T0Y1h9mbngOrm+r1/4ovLnesTayQdBg==)  Saturday, January 
08, 1944 _Reno,_ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:reno+one+woman+miserable)  _Nevada_ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nevada+one+woman+miserable)      ...bachelor. Why should I make  
ONE WOMAN MISERABLE, when I can stay single.....out  Jf the scenes in 1918. 
This is ONE el the first movies where  the..
Pg. 8, col. 2:
"The picture I like best was 'Heaven Can Wait', because it reminded me of  
parts of my own life. I don't care for Don Ameche or Gene Tierney, but I liked  
the old-fashioned atmosphere, and I liked the way Don made so many women 
happy.  Like me. I'm a perennial bachelor. Why should I make one woman miserable, 
when I  can stay single and make lots of women happy>"
...
...
     _Clearfield Progress _ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=e0sfgs8TnFyKID/6NLMW2hqQQ2ydsVgqGxyQM3+TMUemvP4cXiVJ4UIF+CsZYmrz)  Saturday, 
October 08, 1927 _Clearfield,_ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:clearfield+one+woman+miserable)  _Pennsylvania_ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+one+woman+miserable)      
...women happy for a little  while and ONE WOMAN MISERABLE for life. For,  ONE 
kiss.....it is ONE man's metier to make ONE  WOMAN happy for life, ami  
another..
Pg. 4. col. 2:
For, verily, verily, unto every man his mission!
...
And per adventure, it is one man's metier to make one woman happy for life,  
and another man's appointed task to make all women happy for a little while 
and  one woman miserable for life.diof a Married Woman by Helen Rowland--ed.)
...
...
     _Frederick Post _ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2oy7tVp81eoBeb8h4w5+FLtWDG4MEEanEkIF+CsZYmrz)  Wednesday, April 
26, 1995 _Frederick,_ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:frederick+one+woman+miserable)  _Maryland_ 
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:maryland+one+woman+miserable)      ...Why should he 
marry and  make ONE WOMAN MISERABLE, when he can remain.....the  golden years 
culture. On the ONE hand, some retirees need work  to..


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  1 04:04:39 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:04:39 -0500
Subject: Children's chant
In-Reply-To: <20050131201436.58660.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.230439.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:14 PM -0800 1/31/05, Larry Scroggs wrote:
>Heard at my school in the late 1950s.
>
>Whistle while you work
>Khrushchev is a jerk
>Eisenhower's got the power
>But it doesn't work.
>
In the earlier 50s it was still (at least in what we now call blue states)

Whistle while you work
Hitler was a jerk
Mussolini bit his weenie,
And now it doesn't work.

(Never clear to me whether it was Hitler's weenie or Mussolini's own
that was rendered dysfunctional.)

and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,

Hitler # had only one, left ball,
Goering #  had two but they were small.
Himmler #  had something similar,
And Goebbals
Had no balls
At all.

(# indicates caesura; much discussion of first line, and variations,
accessible from archives)

Larry Horn


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  1 04:09:25 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:09:25 -0500
Subject: n-heads
In-Reply-To: <E1Cvo3Q-0001eh-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.230925.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jan 30, 2005, at 10:50 PM, Michael McKernan wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Michael McKernan <mckernan at LOCALNET.COM>
> Subject:      n-heads
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> ROCHESTER UNION-SPY - Friday, March 17, 1871
> [Rochester, Indiana]
>
> http://www.fulco.lib.in.us/genealogy/Tombaugh/Newspaper%20Excerpts/
> Html/Newspape
> rs%201871-72.htm
>
>
>> CHRIS. HOOVER intends to have a good foundation under the brick house
>> he
>> proposes to erect on the corner of Jefferson and Meridian streets. He
>> has
>> collected a big pile of niggerheads for that purpose.
>
> Michael McKernan
>

So, it's also the name of something used in construction. Any idea what
it was? FWIW, my 1971 RHD defines "niggerhead" only as a nautical term
meaning "gypsyhead." Period. Was there really a time in this country
when ethnic and racial slurs were so common that a professional
lexicographer felt free to define one slur by another slur, without the
need for further explanation? Clearly, there was.

-Wilson Gray


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 04:11:29 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:11:29 -0800
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.201129.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One suspects that the term "frottist" has been popularized because "frotteur" and "frotteuse" are gender-specific and too hard to spell.

JL

Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: articles on euphemisms for sex
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 4:13 PM -0800 1/31/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Didn't Germaine Greer start the discusion in 1970 in "The Female Eunuch" ?
>
>As for "frottist," it's not in the OED (got that, Jesse?) but its
>august pages do contain the synonymous "frotteur," and will tell you
>all you might wish to know on the subject.
>
>JL

In French, of course, those who do so and are of the female
persuasion are "frotteuses" rather than "frotteurs", but this
distinction tends not to be retained in English (to judge from both
my intuition and google). "Masseuse" gets regularized in the
opposite direction; I've noticed many a reference to a "male
masseuse". Markedness strikes again!

Larry, who has certainly encountered web sites with a LOT more than
three terms for female masturbation, although how many of them are in
regular use is not clear (to me, anyway). Cf. e.g.
http://www.worldwidewank.com/synonyms3.html for a hundred or so, or
just google "female masturbation terms" for other lists. Granted,
some of the lingo seems a bit...recherch?.

>
>Susan Tamasi wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Susan Tamasi
>Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I was wondering if anyone could suggest some good articles to be used in a
>discussion of euphemism or slang and sex/gender/sexuality. The specific
>focus is open, but I'll mostly be discussing how terms for sex and sexuality
>reflect a different view of men and women, such as playa vs. slut, or having
>dozens of terms for male masturbation vs. about three for women, or why
>slang terms for female genitalia are so much "dirtier" than for male
>genitalia.
>
>Also, can anyone give me a definition of "frottist"?
>
>Thanks,
>Susan
>
>Susan Tamasi
>Visiting Assistant Professor
>Program in Linguistics
>Emory University
>404-727-7843
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  1 04:16:33 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:16:33 -0500
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
In-Reply-To: <20050201041129.72056.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.231633.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:11 PM -0800 1/31/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>One suspects that the term "frottist" has been popularized because
>"frotteur" and "frotteuse" are gender-specific and too hard to spell.
>
>JL

Mebbe so, but one doesn't want to predict the popularization of "massist".

L

>Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Laurence Horn
>Subject: Re: articles on euphemisms for sex
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>At 4:13 PM -0800 1/31/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>Didn't Germaine Greer start the discusion in 1970 in "The Female Eunuch" ?
>>
>>As for "frottist," it's not in the OED (got that, Jesse?) but its
>>august pages do contain the synonymous "frotteur," and will tell you
>>all you might wish to know on the subject.
>>
>>JL
>
>In French, of course, those who do so and are of the female
>persuasion are "frotteuses" rather than "frotteurs", but this
>distinction tends not to be retained in English (to judge from both
>my intuition and google). "Masseuse" gets regularized in the
>opposite direction; I've noticed many a reference to a "male
>masseuse". Markedness strikes again!


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 04:27:44 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:27:44 -0800
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.202744.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There was also, "You ain't just a woofin'!" I.e., "not just whistlin' Dixie!"

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back in the day - mid '60's - when this was a relatively (I never
really dug this expression) active part of my vocabulary, it meant
roughly "to make an empty threat designed to frighten away the unhip."
It's easy to see how this could come to mean to bullshit someone.

BTW, by this time, in L.A., at least, "square" had ceased to be a word
applied to the unhip in general. Rather, it was applied to those unhip
to whatever the speaker was hip to. Those in the (sporting) life
referred to all others in the demimonde as "squares." Dealers referred
to users as squares. Dopers referred to winos as squares. Winos
referred to dopers as squares.

The hip may recall Richard Pryor's bit in which a wino downs a doper by
saying him, "That narcotic done rendered your ass null and void." (It
helps if you're old enough to remember: "Do not fold, spindle, or
mutilate! Any such action will render this instrument null and void."
Or words to that effect.)

-Wilson Gray


On Jan 31, 2005, at 7:35 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> So the big question is where to put the cross reference. I guess it
>> should be at "woof" and all cites at "wolf" - even though most of the
>> published ones will be spelled "woof."
>
> Why would the published ones be spelled "woof"? I never saw it spelled
> that
> way in a book AFAIK.
>
> Google shows "wolf ticket" outnumbering "woof ticket" on the Web.
>
> N'archive shows > 100 examples with "wolf", zero with "woof".
>
> What I want to know is whether the expression has a fixed definite
> meaning,
> or group of meanings. I can't find it in my dictionaries at a glance,
> and I
> don't trust "Urbandictionary" et al. I've taken it to mean
> "falsehood"/"bullshit" but in some cases I couldn't tell.
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Feb  1 04:31:31 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:31:31 -0500
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
In-Reply-To: <20050201041129.72056.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.233131.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>One suspects that the term "frottist" has been popularized because
>"frotteur" and "frotteuse" are gender-specific and too hard to spell.

I don't think "frottist" is common or popular ... probably an occasional
variant or outright error.

Google (searching the WWCE, the Worldwide Web of Crass Errors) finds four
hits for "frottist", vs. a raw number of 5900 for "frotteur". There are 13
English-language hits for "frotteuse", a word which I don't remember ever
seeing before today.

In my experience "frotteur" and "frottage" usually do not refer to sexual
rubbing in general (very conventional!) but to a person (usually a man) who
rubs his body against strangers on a train or bus or something like that,
presumably as a 'sexual' activity.

-- Doug Wilson


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 04:34:58 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:34:58 -0800
Subject: n-heads
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.203458.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It also means 1) a hummock covered thickly with grass or weeds; 2) a dark-colored stone or boulder.  My guess is that Hoover was collecting rocks and stones, but other suggestions are welcome.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: n-heads
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Jan 30, 2005, at 10:50 PM, Michael McKernan wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Michael McKernan
> Subject: n-heads
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> ROCHESTER UNION-SPY - Friday, March 17, 1871
> [Rochester, Indiana]
>
> http://www.fulco.lib.in.us/genealogy/Tombaugh/Newspaper%20Excerpts/
> Html/Newspape
> rs%201871-72.htm
>
>
>> CHRIS. HOOVER intends to have a good foundation under the brick house
>> he
>> proposes to erect on the corner of Jefferson and Meridian streets. He
>> has
>> collected a big pile of niggerheads for that purpose.
>
> Michael McKernan
>

So, it's also the name of something used in construction. Any idea what
it was? FWIW, my 1971 RHD defines "niggerhead" only as a nautical term
meaning "gypsyhead." Period. Was there really a time in this country
when ethnic and racial slurs were so common that a professional
lexicographer felt free to define one slur by another slur, without the
need for further explanation? Clearly, there was.

-Wilson Gray

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Tue Feb  1 04:44:01 2005
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:44:01 -0600
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.224401.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The first Marine went over the ditch
Parle vous
The second Marine went over the ditch
Parle vous
The third Marine fell in the ditch
And called the captain a son of a bitch
Hinkey dinkey parle vous

Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Scroggs" <larry at SCROGGS.COM>


Heard at my school in the late 1950s.


The first Marine went over the wall
Parle vous
The second Marine went over the wall
Parle vous
The third Marine went over the wall
Got hit in the ass by a cannon ball
Inkey dinkey parle vous
(There were several different verses of this)

Larry
Larry at Scroggs.com


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Feb  1 05:29:59 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:29:59 -0600
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.232959.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Another kid's song, to Col Bogey's March:

Comet # will make your face turn green
Comet # smells like Gasoline
Comet # will make you vomit
So get some Comet
And Vomit
Today

(Comet is the kitchen cleaning powder)


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Laurence Horn
Sent: Mon 1/31/2005 10:04 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Children's chant


and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,

Hitler # had only one, left ball,
Goering #  had two but they were small.
Himmler #  had something similar,
And Goebbals
Had no balls
At all.

(# indicates caesura; much discussion of first line, and variations,
accessible from archives)

Larry Horn


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  1 05:11:17 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:11:17 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <E1Cvpdj-0006Me-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.001117.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't think that I've ever heard that one, but I was never down with
"wolf/woof" from the BE-gin-nin. When I was in the Army, "You ain't
just a-bird-turdin'!" was used with that meaning by Southern-white
GI's. Pretty cool, considering the source.

BTW, on a reality show, I heard a black woman say, "That sucks!" A
first for me. Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it." Back in '54, we used to
say: "It's your world. Just let me live," in response to the greeting,
"Whassapnin?," the "Whussup" of the '50's through the '90's.

-Wilson Gray

On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:27 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> There was also, "You ain't just a woofin'!" I.e., "not just whistlin'
> Dixie!"
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Back in the day - mid '60's - when this was a relatively (I never
> really dug this expression) active part of my vocabulary, it meant
> roughly "to make an empty threat designed to frighten away the unhip."
> It's easy to see how this could come to mean to bullshit someone.
>
> BTW, by this time, in L.A., at least, "square" had ceased to be a word
> applied to the unhip in general. Rather, it was applied to those unhip
> to whatever the speaker was hip to. Those in the (sporting) life
> referred to all others in the demimonde as "squares." Dealers referred
> to users as squares. Dopers referred to winos as squares. Winos
> referred to dopers as squares.
>
> The hip may recall Richard Pryor's bit in which a wino downs a doper by
> saying him, "That narcotic done rendered your ass null and void." (It
> helps if you're old enough to remember: "Do not fold, spindle, or
> mutilate! Any such action will render this instrument null and void."
> Or words to that effect.)
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> On Jan 31, 2005, at 7:35 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
>> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>>> So the big question is where to put the cross reference. I guess it
>>> should be at "woof" and all cites at "wolf" - even though most of the
>>> published ones will be spelled "woof."
>>
>> Why would the published ones be spelled "woof"? I never saw it spelled
>> that
>> way in a book AFAIK.
>>
>> Google shows "wolf ticket" outnumbering "woof ticket" on the Web.
>>
>> N'archive shows > 100 examples with "wolf", zero with "woof".
>>
>> What I want to know is whether the expression has a fixed definite
>> meaning,
>> or group of meanings. I can't find it in my dictionaries at a glance,
>> and I
>> don't trust "Urbandictionary" et al. I've taken it to mean
>> "falsehood"/"bullshit" but in some cases I couldn't tell.
>>
>> -- Doug Wilson
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


From stevec at TOPDOGSTRATEGY.COM  Tue Feb  1 05:14:57 2005
From: stevec at TOPDOGSTRATEGY.COM (Steve Clason)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:14:57 -0700
Subject: n-heads
In-Reply-To: <200501312109823.SM00880@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.221457.0700.>

On 1/31/2005 9:09 PM Wilson Gray wrote:

> So, it's also the name of something used in construction. Any idea what
> it was? FWIW, my 1971 RHD defines "niggerhead" only as a nautical term
> meaning "gypsyhead." Period. Was there really a time in this country
> when ethnic and racial slurs were so common that a professional
> lexicographer felt free to define one slur by another slur, without the
> need for further explanation? Clearly, there was.

In the mid-'70s on the North Slope in Alaska "niggerhead" referred to
hummocks (tussocks?) of grass that grew about 8" in diameter, 10-12"
high, spaced 6" or so apart. They covered acres and acres and were very
difficult to traverse by any means. USGS Topographical maps indicated
them with the very word.

--
Steve Clason


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  1 05:28:24 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:28:24 -0500
Subject: n-heads
In-Reply-To: <E1Cvpkx-0007Cb-00@mx04.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.002824.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:34 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: n-heads
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> It also means 1) a hummock covered thickly with grass or weeds; 2) a
> dark-colored stone or boulder.  My guess is that Hoover was collecting
> rocks and stones, but other suggestions are welcome.
>
> JL

Definition 2) seems to be the relevant one, in this case.

-Wilson

>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: n-heads
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Jan 30, 2005, at 10:50 PM, Michael McKernan wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Michael McKernan
>> Subject: n-heads
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> ROCHESTER UNION-SPY - Friday, March 17, 1871
>> [Rochester, Indiana]
>>
>> http://www.fulco.lib.in.us/genealogy/Tombaugh/Newspaper%20Excerpts/
>> Html/Newspape
>> rs%201871-72.htm
>>
>>
>>> CHRIS. HOOVER intends to have a good foundation under the brick house
>>> he
>>> proposes to erect on the corner of Jefferson and Meridian streets. He
>>> has
>>> collected a big pile of niggerheads for that purpose.
>>
>> Michael McKernan
>>
>
> So, it's also the name of something used in construction. Any idea what
> it was? FWIW, my 1971 RHD defines "niggerhead" only as a nautical term
> meaning "gypsyhead." Period. Was there really a time in this country
> when ethnic and racial slurs were so common that a professional
> lexicographer felt free to define one slur by another slur, without the
> need for further explanation? Clearly, there was.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Feb  1 05:14:30 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:14:30 EST
Subject: Woman, Dog, and Hickory Tree (1909)
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.001430.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 1/31/2005 7:04:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
grinchy at GRINCHY.COM writes:

Barry,

This old chestnut goes way back:

A woman, a  spaniel, and walnut tree,
The more you beat them, the better they  be.

Brewer's Readers Handbook (1897) attributes it to John Taylor  "The
Water Poet"  (1630).

Erik
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Thanks. I don't know when my 1840s cite source is from, but I don't think
it's 1630.
...
Barry


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Feb  1 05:16:31 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:16:31 -0800
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050131232124.02f9dd70@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.211631.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jan 31, 2005, at 8:31 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> ...In my experience "frotteur" and "frottage" usually do not refer to
> sexual
> rubbing in general (very conventional!)...

in my experience they do.  frottage is one of what i think of as the
Four Ways and Places for gay men: on the body, in the hand, in the
mouth, in the ass.  very safe, and easily allows for lots of affection.
  it's practically decorous.

of course, other people's mileages certainly vary.

arnold


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  1 05:21:25 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 00:21:25 -0500
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
In-Reply-To: <E1Cvpi0-00014k-00@mx08.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.002125.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:31 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
> Subject:      Re: articles on euphemisms for sex
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> One suspects that the term "frottist" has been popularized because
>> "frotteur" and "frotteuse" are gender-specific and too hard to spell.
>
> I don't think "frottist" is common or popular ... probably an
> occasional
> variant or outright error.
>
> Google (searching the WWCE, the Worldwide Web of Crass Errors) finds
> four
> hits for "frottist", vs. a raw number of 5900 for "frotteur". There
> are 13
> English-language hits for "frotteuse", a word which I don't remember
> ever
> seeing before today.
>
> In my experience "frotteur" and "frottage" usually do not refer to
> sexual
> rubbing in general (very conventional!) but to a person (usually a
> man) who
> rubs his body against strangers on a train or bus or something like
> that,
> presumably as a 'sexual' activity.
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>

"In your _expereience_?! Jeez, Doug!  How about using a little
discretion?! That's too much information! In any case, I agree with the
general thrust of your last paragraph and add that copping a feel under
the circumstances described is usually also considered to be an
instance of frottage.

-Wilson Gray


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Feb  1 05:38:37 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:38:37 -0600
Subject: n-heads
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.233837.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One wonders what people will look back on, a hundred years from now, in
amazement at our lack of sensistivity.

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray
Sent: Mon 1/31/2005 10:09 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: n-heads
 
 Was there really a time in this country
when ethnic and racial slurs were so common that a professional
lexicographer felt free to define one slur by another slur, without the
need for further explanation? Clearly, there was.


From sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM  Tue Feb  1 05:47:49 2005
From: sqeezbox at CRUZIO.COM (Chuck Borsos)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:47:49 -0800
Subject: Children's chant
In-Reply-To: <l03130304be236fa16d2f@[66.153.101.133]>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.214749.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(to the tune of Battle Hymn of the Republic)


Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school
Where they tortured all the teachers and they broke all the rules
They broke into the office and they killed the principal
As we go marching on

Glory Glory what's it to ya
Teacher hit me with a ruler
I hit her in the bean with a rotten tangerine
As we go marching on


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Feb  1 05:58:44 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:58:44 -0600
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.235844.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Nashville version, ca. 1970:


Glory Glory hallelujah
Teacher hit me with a ruler
I stood behind the door with a loaded .44,
and there ain't no teacher no more

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Chuck Borsos
Sent: Mon 1/31/2005 11:47 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Children's chant
 
(to the tune of Battle Hymn of the Republic)

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school
Where they tortured all the teachers and they broke all the rules
They broke into the office and they killed the principal
As we go marching on

Glory Glory what's it to ya
Teacher hit me with a ruler
I hit her in the bean with a rotten tangerine
As we go marching on


From dlw3208 at LOUISIANA.EDU  Tue Feb  1 05:56:41 2005
From: dlw3208 at LOUISIANA.EDU (Wells Darla L)
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:56:41 -0600
Subject: "Why make one woman miserable?" (1929, 1937, 1943?)
In-Reply-To: <200502010346.j113kW12019694@bp.ucs.louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.31.JAN.2005.235641.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:46:17 EST, Bapopik wrote
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -------------------
----
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      "Why make one woman miserable?" (1929, 1937, 1943?)
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Wanda Sykes, the standup comedienne, took this expression and modified it.
She was talking about men who want sex with two women. Her reply to that
was "Why make one woman miserable, when you can piss off two?
DWells


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb  1 06:08:10 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 01:08:10 -0500
Subject: pay-for-say, pay-to-say, pay-to-pander (was: Pay-to-Sway)
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.010810.0500.>

On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 22:20:14 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>PAY-TO-SWAY
>...
>No, not that kind of sway! Errol Louis (the former New York Sun
>columnist who the New York Times should have hired) has a great column
>(again) in today's New York Daily News, 28 January 2005, pg. 51, cols.
>1-3, "On  Ethics" by Errol Louis, "Wake up, Maggie: Another
>conservative columnist is  clueless in pay-to-sway scandal."

There doesn't seem to be a consensus yet on a catchy name for the scandal
involving Armstrong Williams et al., though variations on "pay-for-play"
(from the payola scandal) are popular.  "Pay-to-sway" is perhaps the
favorite (thanks to a Jan. 26 Human Rights Campaign press release about
Maggie Gallagher), but there are some alternatives in circulation.  I just
noticed "pay-for-say" on Salon.com, and the conservative columnist
Michelle Malkin is partial to "pay-to-pander"...


* pay-for-say

http://www.ku.edu/~kudems/blogarchives/2005_01_09_blog_archive.html
KU Democrats, "Is there no shame?", Jan. 15, 2005
First it was the Armstrong pay-for-say scandal...

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/02/01/fairness/index.html
Salon, "Fair and balanced?", Feb. 1, 2005
Some Democrats are using Bush's pay-for-say media scandals to push for a
new Fairness Doctrine for broadcasting.


* pay-to-say

http://gothhouse.blogspot.com/2005/01/no-amount-of-cynicism-is-too-much.html
Goth House, "No amount of cynicism is too much", Jan. 11, 2005
The unfolding pay-to-say scandal...

http://casf.blogspot.com/2005/01/pay-to-say.html
Cultivating a Small Field, "pay to say", Jan. 18, 2005


* pay-to-pander

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/001179.htm
Michelle Malkin, Jan. 7, 2005
"Rodney Paige, Armstrong Williams, and the 'pay to pander' scandal"

http://www.winchesterstar.com/TheWinchesterStar/050113/Opinion_pander.asp
Winchester Star, Jan. 13, 2005
"Pay to Pander Was 'Pathetic'"

http://www.nationalledger.com/commentary/article_153.shtml
National Ledger, Jan. 17, 2005
Speaking of being in denial, some conservatives argue that the Pay to
Pander program is no big deal compared to the CBS scandal.

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/001334.htm
Michelle Malkin, Jan. 25, 2005
You all know how I feel about the Bush administration's media
"pay-to-pander" scandal.


--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Feb  1 07:14:35 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 02:14:35 EST
Subject: ProQuest?; Wolf Tickets (1969); more rhymes
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.021435.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry, but I had thought my last post was a private message. I'll try to
combine things here.
...
...
PROQUEST
...
Have they done ANYTHING this year? It's February!!
...
_http://www.il.proquest.com/products/pt-product-HistNews.shtml_
(http://www.il.proquest.com/products/pt-product-HistNews.shtml)
The Boston Globe--scheduled for January 2005 release
...
...
WOLF TICKETS
....
(PAPER OF RECORD)
10 May 1969, THE AFRO AMERICAN, pg. 31, col. 5:
"The administration (Howard University--ed.) has been selling (wolf)  tickets
with their TRO's (Temporary Restraining Orders) all year; and the  students
just cashed in one of those bad boys!
...
...
...
RHYMES
...
...
MISS MARY MAC (1990), pg. 112:
..
Don't say ain't or your mother will faint,
And your father will fall in a bucket of paint.
Sister will cry, brother will die,
And they won't come back till the Fourth of July.
...
...
...
FOLK-LORE FROM ADAMS COUNTY ILLINOIS (1965), pg. 638:
It is a sin,
To steal a pin;
It is a greater,
To steal a potater (potato).
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
     _Dunkirk Observer Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2vcwb3StNMPzB69E74FCRpgpjA1V0fY8OkIF+CsZYmrz)
Friday, June 28, 1889 _Dunkirk,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:dunkirk+a+sin+to+steal+a+pin)  _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+a+sin+to+steal+a+pin)      ...I suppose,
thAt "it is A SIN TO  steAl A PIN, even though it  mAy bo.....tbe courAge TO
sign her  uAme TO it. "A SIN gle enclosure  of is the lArgest..

Pg. 3, col. 1:
He wrote that although it seemed like a trifling matter it had always
troubled him--on the principle, I suppose, that "it is a sin to steal a pin,  even
though it may be greater to steal a 'tater."
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_NOTES  AND COMMENTS._
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=78765735&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107241406&cli
entId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current file).  New York, N.Y.: Apr 23, 1871. p. 3 (1
page) :
...
As in this particular case the hair was taken from merchants after it had
been imported and made an article of merchandise, the jury didn't think it worth
 while to split any hairs about it, but concluded that if it was a "sin to
steal  a pin," it must be wrong to take chignons.
...

...
FOLK-LORE FROM ADAMS COUNTY ILLINOIS (1965), pg. 637:
If you step on a crack,
You'll break your mother's back.
or
Step on a crack,
Break your mother's back.
...
If you step in a hole,
You'll break your mother's sugar bowl.
or
Step in a hole,
Break your mother's sugar bowl.
...
If you step in a line,
You'll find a dime.
...
If you step on a nail,
You'll send your father to jail
or
Step on a nail,
Get your father to jail.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Feb  1 07:56:55 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 02:56:55 EST
Subject: "Most dangerous man in the world" quote
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.025655.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just today:
...
_http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview_
(http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview) ?
I'm looking for the correct quotation for this paraphrased  quote:

"The most dangerous man in the world is the man who is absolutely  sure
that he is right."

This isn't the correct quote, but does give  the sense of quotation.
I'd like to have the correct quotation, and where it  came from.

Thanks,
J.
...
...
(GOOGLE)
...
_The Cult - Scene Dissections_
(http://chuckpalahniuk.net/community/showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=11683)
... _____. "The most dangerous man is the  one who knows he is right." -
Someone, probably Frank  Herbert. Reply With Quote. ...
chuckpalahniuk.net/community/  showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=11683 - 67k -
Supplemental Result - _Cached_
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:ad6MIkIs1PEJ:chuckpalahniuk.net/community/showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=11683+"most+dangerou
s+man"+and+"he+is+right"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:chuckpalahniuk.net/community/showthre
ad.php?mode=hybrid&t=11683)
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
_SCHOOLS  HELD LAX IN FIGHTING CRIME; Copeland Urges Revision of System to
Stress  'Attitudes' Instead of 'Aptitudes.' ONE ROAD TO PREVENTION He Tells
Lions Group  America Must Rely on Public Classes to Solve Problem. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=87963093&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VTyp
e=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107243254&clientId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 21,  1936. p. 15 (1
page)
...
"The most dangerous man in the world is the highly educated man without
character."
...
...
_Those  Little Things Mean a Lot_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=475909872&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=11
07243736&clientId=65882)
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current  File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jul 20, 1958. p.
D3 (1 page)
...
"The most dangerous man in the world is a second lieutenant with a  map."
...


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 12:46:45 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 04:46:45 -0800
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.044645.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Dave.  A new one on me.

JL

Dave Hause <dwhause at JOBE.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Dave Hause
Subject: Re: Children's chant
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The first Marine went over the ditch
Parle vous
The second Marine went over the ditch
Parle vous
The third Marine fell in the ditch
And called the captain a son of a bitch
Hinkey dinkey parle vous

Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Scroggs"


Heard at my school in the late 1950s.


The first Marine went over the wall
Parle vous
The second Marine went over the wall
Parle vous
The third Marine went over the wall
Got hit in the ass by a cannon ball
Inkey dinkey parle vous
(There were several different verses of this)

Larry
Larry at Scroggs.com


---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 12:50:26 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 04:50:26 -0800
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.045026.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yup. "ain't just a-bird-turdin'" goes back to WWII. But I don't think anybody's noted the "Your world" phrases before.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think that I've ever heard that one, but I was never down with
"wolf/woof" from the BE-gin-nin. When I was in the Army, "You ain't
just a-bird-turdin'!" was used with that meaning by Southern-white
GI's. Pretty cool, considering the source.

BTW, on a reality show, I heard a black woman say, "That sucks!" A
first for me. Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it." Back in '54, we used to
say: "It's your world. Just let me live," in response to the greeting,
"Whassapnin?," the "Whussup" of the '50's through the '90's.

-Wilson Gray

On Jan 31, 2005, at 11:27 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> There was also, "You ain't just a woofin'!" I.e., "not just whistlin'
> Dixie!"
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Back in the day - mid '60's - when this was a relatively (I never
> really dug this expression) active part of my vocabulary, it meant
> roughly "to make an empty threat designed to frighten away the unhip."
> It's easy to see how this could come to mean to bullshit someone.
>
> BTW, by this time, in L.A., at least, "square" had ceased to be a word
> applied to the unhip in general. Rather, it was applied to those unhip
> to whatever the speaker was hip to. Those in the (sporting) life
> referred to all others in the demimonde as "squares." Dealers referred
> to users as squares. Dopers referred to winos as squares. Winos
> referred to dopers as squares.
>
> The hip may recall Richard Pryor's bit in which a wino downs a doper by
> saying him, "That narcotic done rendered your ass null and void." (It
> helps if you're old enough to remember: "Do not fold, spindle, or
> mutilate! Any such action will render this instrument null and void."
> Or words to that effect.)
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> On Jan 31, 2005, at 7:35 PM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
>> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>>> So the big question is where to put the cross reference. I guess it
>>> should be at "woof" and all cites at "wolf" - even though most of the
>>> published ones will be spelled "woof."
>>
>> Why would the published ones be spelled "woof"? I never saw it spelled
>> that
>> way in a book AFAIK.
>>
>> Google shows "wolf ticket" outnumbering "woof ticket" on the Web.
>>
>> N'archive shows > 100 examples with "wolf", zero with "woof".
>>
>> What I want to know is whether the expression has a fixed definite
>> meaning,
>> or group of meanings. I can't find it in my dictionaries at a glance,
>> and I
>> don't trust "Urbandictionary" et al. I've taken it to mean
>> "falsehood"/"bullshit" but in some cases I couldn't tell.
>>
>> -- Doug Wilson
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 13:06:16 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 05:06:16 -0800
Subject: ProQuest?; Wolf Tickets (1969); more rhymes
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.050616.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry's 1969 "wolf tickets"  also contains the earliest "bad boy" = "object; thing" by many years.  I first heard it on "Miami Vice."

JL

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: ProQuest?; Wolf Tickets (1969); more rhymes
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, but I had thought my last post was a private message. I'll try to
combine things here.
...
...
PROQUEST
...
Have they done ANYTHING this year? It's February!!
...
_http://www.il.proquest.com/products/pt-product-HistNews.shtml_
(http://www.il.proquest.com/products/pt-product-HistNews.shtml)
The Boston Globe--scheduled for January 2005 release
...
...
WOLF TICKETS
....
(PAPER OF RECORD)
10 May 1969, THE AFRO AMERICAN, pg. 31, col. 5:
"The administration (Howard University--ed.) has been selling (wolf) tickets
with their TRO's (Temporary Restraining Orders) all year; and the students
just cashed in one of those bad boys!
...
...
...
RHYMES
...
...
MISS MARY MAC (1990), pg. 112:
..
Don't say ain't or your mother will faint,
And your father will fall in a bucket of paint.
Sister will cry, brother will die,
And they won't come back till the Fourth of July.
...
...
...
FOLK-LORE FROM ADAMS COUNTY ILLINOIS (1965), pg. 638:
It is a sin,
To steal a pin;
It is a greater,
To steal a potater (potato).
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
_Dunkirk Observer Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2vcwb3StNMPzB69E74FCRpgpjA1V0fY8OkIF+CsZYmrz)
Friday, June 28, 1889 _Dunkirk,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:dunkirk+a+sin+to+steal+a+pin) _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+a+sin+to+steal+a+pin) ...I suppose,
thAt "it is A SIN TO steAl A PIN, even though it mAy bo.....tbe courAge TO
sign her uAme TO it. "A SIN gle enclosure of is the lArgest..

Pg. 3, col. 1:
He wrote that although it seemed like a trifling matter it had always
troubled him--on the principle, I suppose, that "it is a sin to steal a pin, even
though it may be greater to steal a 'tater."
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_NOTES AND COMMENTS._
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=78765735&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107241406&cli
entId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Apr 23, 1871. p. 3 (1
page) :
...
As in this particular case the hair was taken from merchants after it had
been imported and made an article of merchandise, the jury didn't think it worth
while to split any hairs about it, but concluded that if it was a "sin to
steal a pin," it must be wrong to take chignons.
...

...
FOLK-LORE FROM ADAMS COUNTY ILLINOIS (1965), pg. 637:
If you step on a crack,
You'll break your mother's back.
or
Step on a crack,
Break your mother's back.
...
If you step in a hole,
You'll break your mother's sugar bowl.
or
Step in a hole,
Break your mother's sugar bowl.
...
If you step in a line,
You'll find a dime.
...
If you step on a nail,
You'll send your father to jail
or
Step on a nail,
Get your father to jail.


---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 13:13:14 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 05:13:14 -0800
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.051314.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Good work, Mike!  The World War I version was usually,

The YMCA went over the top,
They thought they heard a nickel drop.

The YMCA canteens in France were rather commonly resented for charging doughboys for doughnuts, coffee, cigarettes, etc.

Another was,

The mademoiselle went over the top,
To rob the soldiers as they dropped.


JL

JL

Michael McKernan <mckernan at LOCALNET.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Michael McKernan
Subject: Re: Children's chant
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Larry Scroggs wrote:

>The first Marine went over the wall
>Parle vous
>The second Marine went over the wall
>Parle vous
>The third Marine went over the wall
>Got hit in the ass by a cannon ball
>Inkey dinkey parle vous
>(There were several different verses of this)

Also 1950s; interservice rivalry

The first Marine went over the top
Parlez vous?
The first Marine went over the top
Parlez vous?
The first Marine went over the top
To pick up the nickels the infantry dropped
Hinky dinky parlez vous.

Michael McKernan


---------------------------------
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From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Tue Feb  1 13:29:23 2005
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:29:23 -0500
Subject: Whisky dry, Heaven die (1875)
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.082923.0500.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

My favorite verse is.

"I drink my own whiskey
I make my own stew.
If I get drunk, madam,
It's nothing to you."

As I recall Tex Ritter used this verse.

When I see my late friend Dock Boggs quoted I feel very old.

A bit of advice for all of you.

Interview us old timers before we die so that you can learn from us.

Every time I hear some young folkie, ie under the age of 50 or so talking
about the old timers I almost have to laugh because I interviewed many of
them some forty years ago, and they are not old timers to me but my late
friends.

Please do not worship those who came before you whom you never had the
opportunity to know but go out today and interview those who are the same
age as the ones I interviewed when I was young because they will be soon
become part of the past and unless you interview them now no one else will
do so.

Another bit of advice: you may not like the forms of music they play but
neither did most of the folklorists who dismissed hillbilly, blues, etc.
artists when they were young and vital.

Such people dismissed such forms of music because they did not fit into
their preconceived ideas of what is or is not folk music, folklore etc. and
as a result they failed to understand what was going on in the real world.

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2005 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: Whisky dry, Heaven die (1875)


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Whisky dry, Heaven die (1875)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The variation among these old songs is impressive. I know at least
> three other versions of "Junker/Junko/Junkie Partner." The one I gave
> is the version that I learned first, in 1950, so I tend to think of it
> as the "right" version. But, actually, I have no clue as to what
> version is oldest.
>
> -Wilson
>


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Tue Feb  1 14:01:03 2005
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:01:03 -0600
Subject: Children's chant/and yet another
In-Reply-To: <20050201124645.45265.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.080103.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gory glory halleluiah
Teacher hit me with a ruler
we shot her in the seater
with a 40 millimeter
us kids go marching on

>
>


From katherine.martin at OUP.COM  Tue Feb  1 14:06:21 2005
From: katherine.martin at OUP.COM (Martin, Katherine)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:06:21 -0500
Subject: Children's chant/and yet another
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.090621.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From Vermont in the 1980s, two more variations:

Herman # look what you've done to me
Herman # I think it's pregnancy
Herman # you put your sperm in
and now it's Herman, and squirmin' and me
 * * *
Glory, glory Halleluiah,
Teacher hit me with a ruler
I hit her in the butt
With a rotten coconut.
She ain't gonna sit no more.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  1 14:13:57 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:13:57 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <9580f72707ca647bc4706805f0448103@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.091357.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>  Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."

This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while.  A highlight
of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it."  At least
since the late 90's.  Maybe first with Michael Jordan?  Can you help
narrow it down, Alice?

larry


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Feb  1 15:13:27 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 10:13:27 -0500
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.101327.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry Horn submits:

> and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
> course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,
>
> Hitler # had only one, left ball,
> Goering #  had two but they were small.
> Himmler #  had something similar,
> And Goebbals
> Had no balls
> At all.
>

Brendan Behan quotes this in Borstal Boy.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 15:49:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 07:49:00 -0800
Subject: Children's chant/and yet another
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.074900.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More "Col. Bogey," pretty foolish though.  NYC, late '60s:

Bullshit !  It makes your grass grow green !
Bullshit !  It makes your windows clean !
Bullshit !  Or is it Horseshit ?
Or is it Bullshit and Horseshit combiiiiiiiined ?????!!!!!!!

The mind that created this one is deserving of study (same locale and milieu):

Who's that knocking at my door?
Who's that knocking at my door?
Who's that knocking at my door?
Said the fair young maiden.

It's me, it's me, from over the sea,
Said Barnacle Bill the Sailor.

(Similarly:)  If you love me, say "It's I"...
Said the fair young maiden.

Aye aye, it's me, Aye aye, it's me,
Said Barnacle Bill the Sailor.

Persons knowing saltier versions are invited to contact me so that posterity may not be misled.

JL
"Martin, Katherine" <katherine.martin at OUP.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Martin, Katherine"
Subject: Re: Children's chant/and yet another
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From Vermont in the 1980s, two more variations:

Herman # look what you've done to me
Herman # I think it's pregnancy
Herman # you put your sperm in
and now it's Herman, and squirmin' and me
* * *
Glory, glory Halleluiah,
Teacher hit me with a ruler
I hit her in the butt
With a rotten coconut.
She ain't gonna sit no more.


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 15:52:23 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 07:52:23 -0800
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.075223.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I don't know if anyone other than myself ever used this as a cynical catch phrase, but there was an NBC sitcom about 1964 inspired, they said. by the life and writings of James Thurber which was called,

"My Life and Welcome to It."

JL

Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
> Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."

This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while. A highlight
of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it." At least
since the late 90's. Maybe first with Michael Jordan? Can you help
narrow it down, Alice?

larry


---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 15:59:44 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 07:59:44 -0800
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.075944.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It was widely sung in all anglophone armies during WWII.  BTW, "Goebbels" is pronounced in this unique case to rhyme with "no balls."

I also heard it from a college chum in 1970.

JL
George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: George Thompson
Subject: Re: Children's chant
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Larry Horn submits:

> and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
> course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,
>
> Hitler # had only one, left ball,
> Goering # had two but they were small.
> Himmler # had something similar,
> And Goebbals
> Had no balls
> At all.
>

Brendan Behan quotes this in Borstal Boy.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.


---------------------------------
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 Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  1 16:25:50 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:25:50 -0500
Subject: Children's chant
In-Reply-To: <20050201155945.7620.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.112550.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>It was widely sung in all anglophone armies during WWII.

Right, but from what I understand the present tense would have
allowed the first line to be rendered as "Hitler # has only got one
ball".  But actually that brings up the question of chronology.
BotRK came out in 1957.  Was the tune already well-established during
WWII and just popularized by the movie?  What's the story?

>  BTW, "Goebbels" is pronounced in this unique case to rhyme with "no balls."

Indeed, but given the usual random anglicization tendencies combined
with a perhaps intentional disrespect I could imagine this
pronunciation would not have been restricted to the exigencies of
rhyming.

L

>
>I also heard it from a college chum in 1970.
>
>JL
>George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: George Thompson
>Subject: Re: Children's chant
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Larry Horn submits:
>
>>  and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
>>  course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,
>>
>>  Hitler # had only one, left ball,
>>  Goering # had two but they were small.
>>  Himmler # had something similar,
>>  And Goebbals
>>  Had no balls
>>  At all.
>>
>
>Brendan Behan quotes this in Borstal Boy.
>
>GAT
>
>George A. Thompson
>Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
>Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 16:39:54 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 08:39:54 -0800
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.083954.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Colonel Bogey's March" was composed in 1914 by "Kenneth Alford" (Frederick J. Ricketts). It is said by Brophy & Partridge to have been the most popular march among British Army bands
during World War I.

JL
Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: Children's chant
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>It was widely sung in all anglophone armies during WWII.

Right, but from what I understand the present tense would have
allowed the first line to be rendered as "Hitler # has only got one
ball". But actually that brings up the question of chronology.
BotRK came out in 1957. Was the tune already well-established during
WWII and just popularized by the movie? What's the story?

> BTW, "Goebbels" is pronounced in this unique case to rhyme with "no balls."

Indeed, but given the usual random anglicization tendencies combined
with a perhaps intentional disrespect I could imagine this
pronunciation would not have been restricted to the exigencies of
rhyming.

L

>
>I also heard it from a college chum in 1970.
>
>JL
>George Thompson wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: George Thompson
>Subject: Re: Children's chant
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Larry Horn submits:
>
>> and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
>> course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,
>>
>> Hitler # had only one, left ball,
>> Goering # had two but they were small.
>> Himmler # had something similar,
>> And Goebbals
>> Had no balls
>> At all.
>>
>
>Brendan Behan quotes this in Borstal Boy.
>
>GAT
>
>George A. Thompson
>Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
>Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Feb  1 16:52:36 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:52:36 -0500
Subject: Burma-Shave
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.115236.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

GAT, the guy who still looks things up in books, notes that there is an
article on the Burma-Shave roadside advertisements in the St. James
Encyclopedia of Popular Culture (Detroit : St. James Press, c2000).
This states that the ads were put up in 43 states, between 1925 and
1963 and quotes 4 or 5 of the poems, none of them the ones remembered
by us'n in the postings of this past weekend.  The bibliography cites 2
books that are to be found in better libraries everywhere:
he Verse by the Side of the Road: The Story of the Burma-Shave Signs
and Jingles, by Frank Rowsome, Jr., in print from Penguin for $12.95
Burma-Shave: The Rhymes, the Signs, the Times, by Bill Vossler, in
print from North Star Press of St. Cloud for $14.95

In this instance I am abashed to say that the library here is a grossly
inferior library, since we have neither.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  1 17:09:56 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:09:56 -0500
Subject: Children's chant
In-Reply-To: <20050201163954.87686.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.120956.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"Colonel Bogey's March" was composed in 1914 by "Kenneth Alford"
>(Frederick J. Ricketts). It is said by Brophy & Partridge to have
>been the most popular march among British Army bands
>during World War I.
>
>JL

Aha.  It all makes sense, now.  I tried googling "Colonel Bogey's
March" and kept turning up sites related to BotRK.

L

>Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Laurence Horn
>Subject: Re: Children's chant
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>It was widely sung in all anglophone armies during WWII.
>
>Right, but from what I understand the present tense would have
>allowed the first line to be rendered as "Hitler # has only got one
>ball". But actually that brings up the question of chronology.
>BotRK came out in 1957. Was the tune already well-established during
>WWII and just popularized by the movie? What's the story?
>
>>  BTW, "Goebbels" is pronounced in this unique case to rhyme with "no balls."
>
>Indeed, but given the usual random anglicization tendencies combined
>with a perhaps intentional disrespect I could imagine this
>pronunciation would not have been restricted to the exigencies of
>rhyming.
>
>L
>
>>
>>I also heard it from a college chum in 1970.
>>
>>JL
>>George Thompson wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: George Thompson
>>Subject: Re: Children's chant
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Larry Horn submits:
>>
>>>  and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
>>>  course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,
>>>
>>>  Hitler # had only one, left ball,
>>>  Goering # had two but they were small.
>>>  Himmler # had something similar,
>>>  And Goebbals
>>>  Had no balls
>>>  At all.
>>>
>>
>>Brendan Behan quotes this in Borstal Boy.
>>
>>GAT
>>
>>George A. Thompson
>>Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
>>Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>  Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Tue Feb  1 16:52:03 2005
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (John Fitzpatrick)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:52:03 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.115203.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

<<I've noticed that the BE/Southern pronunciation of "whip, which used to be spelled "whup," by outsiders, is now more and more often being spelled "whoop," as in, "open a can of whoop-ass." Given that I pronounce "whoop" as "hoop," >>--Wilson Gray

I'm with you there.  What's in those cans is WHUP-ass.  "Whoop" is effete, yuppie, city-slicker talk.  (http://tinyurl.com/6uajh)

Am I alone in altering the pronunciation of "whoop" to achieve alliteration?  "'hooping an' hollerin'" by all means, but I can't  imagine leaving the W out of Mark Twain's Tennessee newspaper, the "Morning Glory and Johnson County War-Whoop" (hysterically funny; a hornbook of baroque vituperation: http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/1562/).

Se?n Fitzpatrick


From remlingk at GVSU.EDU  Tue Feb  1 17:58:51 2005
From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:58:51 -0500
Subject: CFP: ADS at MMLA
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.125851.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Call for Papers: Language Variation and Change in the United States

The American Dialect Society, Midwest Region
With the Midwest Modern Language Association
10-13 November 2005

The Pfister
Milwaukee, Wisconsin

Papers dealing with varieties of English and other languages spoken in
the United States will be considered. Presentations may be based in
traditional dialectology or in other areas of language variation and
change, including sociolinguistics, historical linguistics,
anthropological linguistics, folk linguistics, language and
gender/sexuality, language attitudes, linguistics in the schools,
critical discourse analysis, or narratology.
April 15, 2005 is the deadline for 300-word abstracts. Email submissions
only.

Send abstracts to:

Kathryn Remlinger
American Dialect Society, Midwest Secretary
Grand Valley State University, Allendale, Michigan
remlingk at gvsu.edu
1-616-331-3122

Membership to ADS is recommended. Membership is $50 and includes a
year's subscription to the society's journal, American Speech, and a
copy of the Publication of the American Dialect Society (PADS, an annual
hardbound supplement). Membership information is available at
www.americandialect.org.

Membership to MMLA is required. Membership is $35 for full and associate
professors, $30 for assistant professors and schoolteachers, $20 for
adjunct and part-time faculty, and $15 for students, retired, and
unemployed. Information on membership is available at the website below
or by writing to MMLA, 302 English-Philosophy Bldg, U of Iowa, Iowa
City, IA 52242-1408, tel: 1-319-335-0331.

For more information about ADS at MMLA, see the MMLA website,
www.uiowa.edu/~mmla, go to "Call for Papers," scroll down to "Associated
Organizations," then to "American Dialect Society."


--
Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English: Linguistics
Grand Valley State University
Allendale, MI 49401 USA
remlingk at gvsu.edu
tel: 616-331-3122
fax: 616-331-3430


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Feb  1 18:58:46 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:58:46 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.135846.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        The earliest I see on Westlaw is the Seattle-Times, 6/22/1986, where it's a reference to Bo Jackson.  But Westlaw poops out around that time, so the absence of earlier cites there is not significant.  I've always heard this as referring to Frank Sinatra, and indeed there is a 9/16/1987 use in the Boston Globe to refer to Sinatra.

        It's got to go back farther than this.  What surprised me was the vast range of people to whom it can refer.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Laurence Horn
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:14 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site


At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>  Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."

This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while.  A highlight
of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it."  At least
since the late 90's.  Maybe first with Michael Jordan?  Can you help
narrow it down, Alice?

larry


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Feb  1 19:09:35 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:09:35 -0500
Subject: Woman, Dog, and Hickory Tree (1909)
In-Reply-To: <20050201050036.9AD99B2630@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.140935.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray contributes:
   >>>>>

One version of the final verse of "Junker Partner," a New Orleans black
traditional song:

Give me water when I'm thirsty
Give me whiskey when I'm dry
Give me kindness when I'm sickly
Give me heaven when I die
 <<<<<

I know forms of this from the song that is called variously "Rambler
Gambler", "Rye Whiskey", etc. Here are two excerpts from lyrics found on the
Mudcat Cafe web site.

http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=2966
I'M A RAMBLER, I'M A GAMBLER c

I'm a rambler, I'm a gambler, I'm a long way from home;
And if you don't like me, just leave me alone.
I'll eat when I 'm hungry , I'll drink when I'm dry,
And if the whiskey don't kill me, I'll live till I die.

[I know this one as "And if moonshine..."]

http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=5116
RYE WHISKEY

I'll eat when I'm hungry,
I'll drink when l'm dry,
If the hard times don't kill me,
I'll lay down and die.

[...]

Beefsteak when l'm hungry,
Red liquor when l'm dry,
Greenbacks when I'm hard up,
And religion when I die.




-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Feb  1 19:17:59 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:17:59 -0500
Subject: children's chant
In-Reply-To: <20050201050036.9AD99B2630@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.141759.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Larry Scroggs <larry at SCROGGS.COM>notes:
   >>>>>
Heard at my school in the late 1950s.

Whistle while you work
Khrushchev is a jerk
Eisenhower's got the power
But it doesn't work.
 <<<<<

Same time frame but with World War II references:

Whistle while you work
Hitler was a jerk
Neeny-neeny*
Hossifini*
Mussolini*
Bit his peeny*
Then it wouldn't work

*These four lines repeat the same tune. As far as I can tell, the second and
third are just nonsense, and one can only guess how to spell them.

Well, these are CHILDREN'S chants, so no surprise if they are silly and
snickering.

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb  1 19:18:07 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:18:07 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.141807.0500.>

Larry Horn wrote:
>
>At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>  Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>>say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."
>
>This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while.  A highlight
>of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
>anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it."  At least
>since the late 90's.  Maybe first with Michael Jordan?  Can you help
>narrow it down, Alice?

John Baker wrote:
>
>        The earliest I see on Westlaw is the Seattle-Times, 6/22/1986,
>where it's a reference to Bo Jackson.  But Westlaw poops out around that
>time, so the absence of earlier cites there is not significant.  I've
>always heard this as referring to Frank Sinatra, and indeed there is a
>9/16/1987 use in the Boston Globe to refer to Sinatra.
>
>        It's got to go back farther than this.  What surprised me was the
> vast range of people to whom it can refer.


Looks like we may have Dean Martin to thank for the expression.  From a
1964 column by Earl Wilson:

Reno Evening Gazette, January 4, 1964, p. 10/1
When Dean [Martin], Frank [Sinatra] and their buddy Sammy Davis Jr.
appeared at the Las Vegas Sands' llth anniversary, Dean bowed to Frank and
said, "It's your world, Frank; I just live in it."


--Ben Zimmer


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb  1 19:25:08 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:25:08 -0500
Subject: "novel" = book-length prose account
In-Reply-To: <20050201015947.21266.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.142508.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ah well, what do professors know?

At 08:59 PM 1/31/2005, you wrote:
>This has been discussed before, but here is an indisputable citation from
>a professor of English literature.
>
>
>"[Philip] Caputo's novel ["A Rumor of War"] is arguably the best US novel
>of the Vietnam War.  A USMC officer in the first US Marine brigade to
>arrive in Danang, Caputo's experience mirrors that of the whole country in
>the late 60's.
>"Paper Two due at the end of this novel"
>
>             ---Richard Schumaker, University of Maryland, European
> Division. http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~rschumak/    (then press "war and
> literature").
>
>"A Rumor of War" (1977) is an autobiographical account, catalogued by the
>L of C under "Biography" and "Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975, Personal
>narratives--American."
>
>JL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 19:33:23 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:33:23 -0800
Subject: "novel" = book-length prose account
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.113323.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Beverly, the question almost answers itself.  Certainly in my case.

JL

Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Beverly Flanigan
Subject: Re: "novel" = book-length prose account
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ah well, what do professors know?

At 08:59 PM 1/31/2005, you wrote:
>This has been discussed before, but here is an indisputable citation from
>a professor of English literature.
>
>
>"[Philip] Caputo's novel ["A Rumor of War"] is arguably the best US novel
>of the Vietnam War. A USMC officer in the first US Marine brigade to
>arrive in Danang, Caputo's experience mirrors that of the whole country in
>the late 60's.
>"Paper Two due at the end of this novel"
>
> ---Richard Schumaker, University of Maryland, European
> Division. http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~rschumak/ (then press "war and
> literature").
>
>"A Rumor of War" (1977) is an autobiographical account, catalogued by the
>L of C under "Biography" and "Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975, Personal
>narratives--American."
>
>JL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Feb  1 19:39:39 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:39:39 -0500
Subject: "war daddy"
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.143939.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've been asked about the term _war daddy_ in football,
referring to a very tough or aggressive player. Does
anyone know the inspiration for this, or its history?
I know there was some WWI-era use of _war daddy_ to
describe wealthy men who financially helped soldiers,
or something like that, but this doesn't seem related.

Thanks.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  1 19:53:29 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 14:53:29 -0500
Subject: "novel" = book-length prose account
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050201142410.031389c8@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.145329.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:25 PM -0500 2/1/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Ah well, what do professors know?

Perhaps what this professor of English literature didn't know is not
that novels are [+ fictional] but just that Caputo's _A Rumor of War_
isn't a novel.  Caputo is generally known as a novelist and in
particular the author of Vietnam War novels.  Maybe Prof. Schumaker
hadn't quite gotten around to actually *reading* this memoir before
producing the annotation on his web site--which, it will be noted,
comes in the middle of a list of annotations of war novels of the
fictional variety, including _All Quiet on the Western Front_ and
_Slaughterhouse Five_.  Or, assuming absent-mindedness rather than
laziness, he'd read it but just assimilated it to the novels on his
list.  (I can imagine committing either of these sins more easily
than that of reanalyzing the lexical entry for _novel_.)  On the
other hand, the very next entry on Prof. Schumaker's reading list
after _A Rumor of War_ is a novel (or at least a "novel") by a North
Vietnamese author, _The Sorrow of War_, which is described as "the
perfect pendent [sic] to Caputo's novel", which makes one wonder.

L

>
>At 08:59 PM 1/31/2005, you [= Jon L.] wrote:
>>This has been discussed before, but here is an indisputable citation from
>>a professor of English literature.
>>
>>
>>"[Philip] Caputo's novel ["A Rumor of War"] is arguably the best US novel
>>of the Vietnam War.  A USMC officer in the first US Marine brigade to
>>arrive in Danang, Caputo's experience mirrors that of the whole country in
>>the late 60's.
>>"Paper Two due at the end of this novel"
>>
>>             ---Richard Schumaker, University of Maryland, European
>>Division. http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~rschumak/    (then press "war and
>>literature").
>>
>>"A Rumor of War" (1977) is an autobiographical account, catalogued by the
>>L of C under "Biography" and "Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975, Personal
>>narratives--American."
>>
>>JL


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 20:06:19 2005
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:06:19 -0800
Subject: � � � "Mazda bulbs"
In-Reply-To: <13e.bc4c951.2f2e5e02@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.120619.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mazda comes from the Zoroastrian supreme deity, Ahura
Mazda, who is symbolized by fire or light.


--- Steve Boatti <Ittaob at AOL.COM> wrote:

> What's the derivation of Mazda as a lightbulb
> trademark? I've wondered if
> it's related to the name of the Japanese car.
>
>
>
> Steve Boatti
> sjb72 at columbia.edu
>

=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  1 20:11:06 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:11:06 -0500
Subject: Children's chant
In-Reply-To: <E1Cvzj6-0005np-00@mx05.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.151106.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 1, 2005, at 10:13 AM, George Thompson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Children's chant
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Larry Horn submits:
>
>> and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
>> course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,
>>
>> Hitler # had only one, left ball,
>> Goering #  had two but they were small.
>> Himmler #  had something similar,
>> And Goebbals
>> Had no balls
>> At all.
>>
>
> Brendan Behan quotes this in Borstal Boy.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>

This was also very popular as a barracks time-killer and
mood-lightener, when I was in the Army, except that it was Hitler who
had no balls at all.

There were a couple of other barracks ballads that I can't quite
recall, but which someone else may recognize.

I don't want to join the Army
I don't want to go to war
I don't want to get me arse shah-toff
Etc.

?...?
?...?
A gentleman dapper
Stepped out of the crapper
?...?
?...?
Her mother never told (or "taught"?) her
The things a young girl should know
Etc.

There was also a chant used only by NCO's to troops being formed up for
inspection:

Dress right!
Dress!
Dress and cover!
Dress and cover!
Dress it up and cover down!
Eighteen inches all around!
Dress and cover!
Dress and cover!

-Wilson Gray


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  1 20:26:21 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:26:21 -0500
Subject: "war daddy"
In-Reply-To: <E1Cw3w4-0004VR-00@mx04.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.152621.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 1, 2005, at 2:39 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>
> Subject:      "war daddy"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I've been asked about the term _war daddy_ in football,
> referring to a very tough or aggressive player. Does
> anyone know the inspiration for this, or its history?
> I know there was some WWI-era use of _war daddy_ to
> describe wealthy men who financially helped soldiers,
> or something like that, but this doesn't seem related.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
> OED
>

Never heard it or read it. But, re _war daddy_ *not* as a football
term: perhaps related to Little Orphan Annie's Daddy Warbucks, who was
a war profiteer, at least in the beginning?

-Wilson


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Feb  1 20:35:40 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:35:40 -0500
Subject: Somewhat off- topic
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.153540.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This query is somewhat off-topic of dialect.  Is there a history of
gestures (e.g. middle-fingering and finger wagging [often accompanied by
tsk-tsking])?  I'm sure the mummy in The Mummy Returns is anachronizing
when he wags his finger at the young boy.  The same may be true of Walter
Eckland (in Father Goose, a movie set in WWII) who is reported to have
used a gesture of disgust and frustration by the harbour masters lackey.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Feb  1 20:54:34 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:54:34 -0500
Subject: Somewhat off- topic
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.155434.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Archer Taylor wrote a history of the nose-thumbing gesture: The
Shanghai Gesture.  Helsinki: Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia (Academia
Scientiarum Fennica) 1956.  76 pp.  FF communications ;  no 166.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

----- Original Message -----
From: Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2005 3:35 pm
Subject: Somewhat off- topic

> This query is somewhat off-topic of dialect.  Is there a history of
> gestures (e.g. middle-fingering and finger wagging [often
> accompanied by
> tsk-tsking])?  I'm sure the mummy in The Mummy Returns is
> anachronizingwhen he wags his finger at the young boy.  The same
> may be true of Walter
> Eckland (in Father Goose, a movie set in WWII) who is reported to have
> used a gesture of disgust and frustration by the harbour masters
> lackey.
> Regards,
> David
>
> barnhart at highlands.com
>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb  1 20:52:30 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:52:30 -0500
Subject: "novel" = book-length prose account
In-Reply-To: <p0432040fbe258b10d38d@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.155230.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You're very kind, Larry!

At 02:53 PM 2/1/2005, you wrote:
>At 2:25 PM -0500 2/1/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>Ah well, what do professors know?
>
>Perhaps what this professor of English literature didn't know is not
>that novels are [+ fictional] but just that Caputo's _A Rumor of War_
>isn't a novel.  Caputo is generally known as a novelist and in
>particular the author of Vietnam War novels.  Maybe Prof. Schumaker
>hadn't quite gotten around to actually *reading* this memoir before
>producing the annotation on his web site--which, it will be noted,
>comes in the middle of a list of annotations of war novels of the
>fictional variety, including _All Quiet on the Western Front_ and
>_Slaughterhouse Five_.  Or, assuming absent-mindedness rather than
>laziness, he'd read it but just assimilated it to the novels on his
>list.  (I can imagine committing either of these sins more easily
>than that of reanalyzing the lexical entry for _novel_.)  On the
>other hand, the very next entry on Prof. Schumaker's reading list
>after _A Rumor of War_ is a novel (or at least a "novel") by a North
>Vietnamese author, _The Sorrow of War_, which is described as "the
>perfect pendent [sic] to Caputo's novel", which makes one wonder.
>
>L
>
>>
>>At 08:59 PM 1/31/2005, you [= Jon L.] wrote:
>>>This has been discussed before, but here is an indisputable citation from
>>>a professor of English literature.
>>>
>>>
>>>"[Philip] Caputo's novel ["A Rumor of War"] is arguably the best US novel
>>>of the Vietnam War.  A USMC officer in the first US Marine brigade to
>>>arrive in Danang, Caputo's experience mirrors that of the whole country in
>>>the late 60's.
>>>"Paper Two due at the end of this novel"
>>>
>>>             ---Richard Schumaker, University of Maryland, European
>>>Division. http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~rschumak/    (then press "war and
>>>literature").
>>>
>>>"A Rumor of War" (1977) is an autobiographical account, catalogued by the
>>>L of C under "Biography" and "Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975, Personal
>>>narratives--American."
>>>
>>>JL


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Feb  1 21:41:46 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 13:41:46 -0800
Subject: Eeny Meeny Miny Moe
In-Reply-To: <021701c5076c$b50f2c20$6400a8c0@FITZT1840>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.134146.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm catching up with my e-mail, so perhaps I've missed something.  So far,
I haven't seen a mention of "turkey" as the eeny-meeny euphemism.  That's
the version I grew up with in So. California.  Or did I hear it from my
grandmother from Oklahoma?  Both, as I recall.

Peter Mc.


--On Monday, January 31, 2005 3:13 AM -0500 SeXn Fitzpatrick
<grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET> wrote:

> Outside Washington, D.C., in the early 1950s, I learned of the "Catch a
> nigger by his toe" version when a teen-aged playground monitor cautioned
> us to say "tiger" instead.  Well, who doesn't ?, I thought.
>
> Wilson Gray wrote:
> <<However, I do know "niggerhead," but primarily as a literary term for
> an underwater obstruction that can rip out the bottom of a commercial
> fishing boat.>>
>
> Besides the underwater obstacle, I have heard "niggerhead" applied to a
> kind of broadleaf lawn weed.  It sends up a thin stalk (thinner than a
> dandelion stem) topped by a tight seed cluster that has a nubbly texture
> somewhat like the standard pre-Afro Negro hair style. (More often seen on
> women nowadays.)  My father referred to them as "whiskers".  To a lad
> just taking up the responsibility of lawnmowing, the weeds were more
> annoying than dandelions.  The stalks bent out of the way of the
> reel-type push mower and had to be clipped or cut with a grass whip.
>
> Se?n Fitzpatrick
> Beer is good food
> http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  1 22:09:58 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:09:58 -0500
Subject: Wilde Quotation
In-Reply-To: <32F4F32F.1359A224.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.170958.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I am again in a place without access to ProQuest Historical Newspapers.
Is anyone willing to search PQHN to see whether there are any pre-1916
occurrences of Oscar Wilde's quotation, "I have nothing to declare except
my genius"?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  1 22:23:04 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:23:04 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <E1Cw3Ev-0004xH-00@mx04.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.172304.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 1, 2005, at 1:58 PM, Baker, John wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>         The earliest I see on Westlaw is the Seattle-Times, 6/22/1986,
> where it's a reference to Bo Jackson.  But Westlaw poops out around
> that time, so the absence of earlier cites there is not significant.
> I've always heard this as referring to Frank Sinatra, and indeed there
> is a 9/16/1987 use in the Boston Globe to refer to Sinatra.
>
>         It's got to go back farther than this.  What surprised me was
> the vast range of people to whom it can refer.
>
> John Baker


> "It's got to go back farther than this."

You mean, WRT a citation in print? (BTW, congratulations on your use of
"farther" in this environment.) I first heard a very similar phrase in
1954 - the year that I graduated from high school and I have no reason
to think that the first person that I heard say it also coined it.

A couple of weeks back, I heard Jon Stewart use the phrase, "Get your
heels to clicking." ("Get to stepping" was an occasional variant.) Not
only was this the first time that I'd ever a white person use this, but
it was also the first time that I'd heard it said since the mid-'60's
in L.A. and the first time that I'd heard it used by a "square," in
this case, someone who wasn't a pimp. Rarely - any whore who'd been
broken in and turned out for a week or so would know better than to do
anything that would cause her pimp to have to take her to task - a pimp
might use this phrase to enjoin his whores to work harder, not smarter,
when he was, e.g. gambling away "his" money faster than his whores
could bring it in.

The phrase's meaning and use were so restricted back in the day that
I'm stunned and amazed that any non-senior citizen at all living in the
21st century could possibly have even heard it, let alone find a reason
to use it.

-Wilson Gray

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Laurence Horn
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:14 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
>
>
> At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>  Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>> say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."
>
> This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while.  A highlight
> of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
> anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it."  At least
> since the late 90's.  Maybe first with Michael Jordan?  Can you help
> narrow it down, Alice?
>
> larry
>


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  1 22:37:17 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:37:17 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <p04320400be253e5893fd@[130.132.245.165]>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.173717.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Tuesday, February 1, 2005 9:13 AM -0500 Laurence Horn
<laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:

> At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>  Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>> say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."
>
> This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while.  A highlight
> of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
> anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it."  At least
> since the late 90's.  Maybe first with Michael Jordan?  Can you help
> narrow it down, Alice?

I can't narrow it down. But, it *sounds* like a Stuart Scott-ism. Somewhere
I've saved an essay by him on why it's OK for him to use colloquial
AAVE-isms in his sportscasts. I want to say that it dates from about the
time of the Oakland Ebonics fuss, but I'm not sure.

Dunno if this adds anything to the discussion.


--
Alice Faber
Haskins Labs, 270 Crown St, New Haven, CT, 06511
T: (203) 865-6163 x258 F: (203) 865-8963
faber at haskins.yale.edu


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 23:30:40 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:30:40 -0800
Subject: "war daddy"
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.153040.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Have never heard of either of these.

JL

Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Jesse Sheidlower
Subject: "war daddy"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been asked about the term _war daddy_ in football,
referring to a very tough or aggressive player. Does
anyone know the inspiration for this, or its history?
I know there was some WWI-era use of _war daddy_ to
describe wealthy men who financially helped soldiers,
or something like that, but this doesn't seem related.

Thanks.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 23:32:06 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:32:06 -0800
Subject: "novel" = book-length prose account
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.153206.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the words of Pilate, "What is [+nonfiction] anyway?"

JL

Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: "novel" = book-length prose account
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 2:25 PM -0500 2/1/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Ah well, what do professors know?

Perhaps what this professor of English literature didn't know is not
that novels are [+ fictional] but just that Caputo's _A Rumor of War_
isn't a novel. Caputo is generally known as a novelist and in
particular the author of Vietnam War novels. Maybe Prof. Schumaker
hadn't quite gotten around to actually *reading* this memoir before
producing the annotation on his web site--which, it will be noted,
comes in the middle of a list of annotations of war novels of the
fictional variety, including _All Quiet on the Western Front_ and
_Slaughterhouse Five_. Or, assuming absent-mindedness rather than
laziness, he'd read it but just assimilated it to the novels on his
list. (I can imagine committing either of these sins more easily
than that of reanalyzing the lexical entry for _novel_.) On the
other hand, the very next entry on Prof. Schumaker's reading list
after _A Rumor of War_ is a novel (or at least a "novel") by a North
Vietnamese author, _The Sorrow of War_, which is described as "the
perfect pendent [sic] to Caputo's novel", which makes one wonder.

L

>
>At 08:59 PM 1/31/2005, you [= Jon L.] wrote:
>>This has been discussed before, but here is an indisputable citation from
>>a professor of English literature.
>>
>>
>>"[Philip] Caputo's novel ["A Rumor of War"] is arguably the best US novel
>>of the Vietnam War. A USMC officer in the first US Marine brigade to
>>arrive in Danang, Caputo's experience mirrors that of the whole country in
>>the late 60's.
>>"Paper Two due at the end of this novel"
>>
>> ---Richard Schumaker, University of Maryland, European
>>Division. http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~rschumak/ (then press "war and
>>literature").
>>
>>"A Rumor of War" (1977) is an autobiographical account, catalogued by the
>>L of C under "Biography" and "Vietnamese Conflict, 1961-1975, Personal
>>narratives--American."
>>
>>JL


---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  1 23:56:32 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 15:56:32 -0800
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.155632.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I may be able to help you out there, young man.  The 1914-18 version of "I Don't Want to Join the Army" (based on an English music-hall tune) was as follows:

(NOT FOR OFFENDABLE PEOPLE !)

I don't want to be a soldier !
I don't want to go to war !
I'd rather hang around
Piccadilly Underground,
Living on the earnings of a lay-dee ty-pist !
I don't want a bayonet up my arsehole !
I don't want my ballocks shot away !
I'd rather stay in England,
Merry, merry England,
And fornicate my fucking life away !

Then of course there is the interwar American frat song that goes,

'Twas a cold winter's evening,
The guests were all leaving,
O'Reilly was closing the bar.
And roughly he said,
To a Lady in Red -
"Get out ! You can't stay where you are !"

She wept a sad tear in her bucket of beer,
As she thought of the cold night ahead,
When a gentleman dapper
Stepped out of the crapper,
And these are the words that he saaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiid :

"Her mother never told her
All the things a young girl should know -
About the ways of college men,
And how they come and go. (OOOOOOOOO moooost - leeee goooooooooooo !!!!!)
Age has now taken her beauty,
And Sin has left its sad scar.
So think of your mothers and sisters, boys,
And let her....sleep under...the baaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrr !

And so we end another trip down Memory Lane, brought to you by Serutan.
And Serutan, spelled backwards, is "Nature's" !

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Children's chant
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 1, 2005, at 10:13 AM, George Thompson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: George Thompson
> Subject: Re: Children's chant
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Larry Horn submits:
>
>> and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
>> course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,
>>
>> Hitler # had only one, left ball,
>> Goering # had two but they were small.
>> Himmler # had something similar,
>> And Goebbals
>> Had no balls
>> At all.
>>
>
> Brendan Behan quotes this in Borstal Boy.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>

This was also very popular as a barracks time-killer and
mood-lightener, when I was in the Army, except that it was Hitler who
had no balls at all.

There were a couple of other barracks ballads that I can't quite
recall, but which someone else may recognize.

I don't want to join the Army
I don't want to go to war
I don't want to get me arse shah-toff
Etc.

?...?
?...?
A gentleman dapper
Stepped out of the crapper
?...?
?...?
Her mother never told (or "taught"?) her
The things a young girl should know
Etc.

There was also a chant used only by NCO's to troops being formed up for
inspection:

Dress right!
Dress!
Dress and cover!
Dress and cover!
Dress it up and cover down!
Eighteen inches all around!
Dress and cover!
Dress and cover!

-Wilson Gray


---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  2 00:18:31 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:18:31 -0800
Subject: Somewhat off- topic
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.161831.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's Desmond Morris's "Gestures, Their Origin and Distribution" (N.Y.: Stein & Day, 1979), but I thought it was built on shaky foundations.

For example, Morris claims that Pantagruel gives someone the English "two-finger Vee" gesture (*not* the Victory sign, of course).  When I checked the passage in Rabelais, it seemed pretty clear that the gesture involved simply pointing two fingers at the victim, in the midst of other cryptic clowning, with no detectable implication that this perfromance much resembled or meant the same as the modern gesture.

Geoffrey C.Ward's "Baseball: An Illustrated History" (N.Y.: Knopf, 1994), accompanying the Ken Burns PBS series, has a team photo showing star pitcher Charley "Old Hoss" Radbourne (described on the Net as a "cantankerous man with a drinking problem") subtly but seemingly unmistakably "giving the finger" to the camerman ca1889.  Funk & Wagnalls actually included
the phrase not long after, with an innocent but relevant definition. Make of it what you will.

JL


Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Barnhart
Subject: Somewhat off- topic
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This query is somewhat off-topic of dialect. Is there a history of
gestures (e.g. middle-fingering and finger wagging [often accompanied by
tsk-tsking])? I'm sure the mummy in The Mummy Returns is anachronizing
when he wags his finger at the young boy. The same may be true of Walter
Eckland (in Father Goose, a movie set in WWII) who is reported to have
used a gesture of disgust and frustration by the harbour masters lackey.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com

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From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb  2 00:19:55 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:19:55 -0500
Subject: "war daddy"
In-Reply-To: <20050201233040.63294.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.191955.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

yOn Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM> wrote:
>
> I've been asked about the term _war daddy_ in football,
> referring to a very tough or aggressive player. Does
> anyone know the inspiration for this, or its history?

Here are the earliest citations from Nexis:

1980 _Wash. Post_ 8 July [article beginning on p. B1]  That was a theme
that ran through the sultry, 100-proof weekend full of old-timers like
James "War Daddy" Newsome, 54, a retired master sergeant who flipped
burgers at the picnic.

1985 _Arkansas Democrat-Gazette_ 13 Nov.  "The big deal about us is that
each area -- linemen, ends, linebackers, whatever -- each has contributed
at times when we've needed it," Lindsey said.  "We don't have a stud,
star, war-daddy, whatever.  For us to be effective, the guys who have had
to make the big plays have made them."

1989 _Sports Illustrated_ 11 Dec. [article beginning on p. 50]  "There's a
term [football] coaches use -- war daddies," says Curry.  "They get after
you and smash you.  A good team has one or two.  Auburn has 11."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  2 00:24:16 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 16:24:16 -0800
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.162416.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson, you are a veritable gold mine of seedy information. I am always in awe of your
word whored - I mean "hoard."

By my students' standards, Jon Stewart *is* a senior citizen. Where that leaves us, I just don't want to think about.

JL



Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 1, 2005, at 1:58 PM, Baker, John wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Baker, John"
> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The earliest I see on Westlaw is the Seattle-Times, 6/22/1986,
> where it's a reference to Bo Jackson. But Westlaw poops out around
> that time, so the absence of earlier cites there is not significant.
> I've always heard this as referring to Frank Sinatra, and indeed there
> is a 9/16/1987 use in the Boston Globe to refer to Sinatra.
>
> It's got to go back farther than this. What surprised me was
> the vast range of people to whom it can refer.
>
> John Baker


> "It's got to go back farther than this."

You mean, WRT a citation in print? (BTW, congratulations on your use of
"farther" in this environment.) I first heard a very similar phrase in
1954 - the year that I graduated from high school and I have no reason
to think that the first person that I heard say it also coined it.

A couple of weeks back, I heard Jon Stewart use the phrase, "Get your
heels to clicking." ("Get to stepping" was an occasional variant.) Not
only was this the first time that I'd ever a white person use this, but
it was also the first time that I'd heard it said since the mid-'60's
in L.A. and the first time that I'd heard it used by a "square," in
this case, someone who wasn't a pimp. Rarely - any whore who'd been
broken in and turned out for a week or so would know better than to do
anything that would cause her pimp to have to take her to task - a pimp
might use this phrase to enjoin his whores to work harder, not smarter,
when he was, e.g. gambling away "his" money faster than his whores
could bring it in.

The phrase's meaning and use were so restricted back in the day that
I'm stunned and amazed that any non-senior citizen at all living in the
21st century could possibly have even heard it, let alone find a reason
to use it.

-Wilson Gray

>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of Laurence Horn
> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:14 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
>
>
> At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>> Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>> say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."
>
> This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while. A highlight
> of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
> anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it." At least
> since the late 90's. Maybe first with Michael Jordan? Can you help
> narrow it down, Alice?
>
> larry
>

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From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Feb  2 00:38:38 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 19:38:38 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.193838.0500.>

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:37:17 -0500, Alice Faber <faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU>
wrote:

>--On Tuesday, February 1, 2005 9:13 AM -0500 Laurence Horn
><laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>
>> At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>  Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>>> say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."
>>
>> This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while.  A highlight
>> of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
>> anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it."  At least
>> since the late 90's.  Maybe first with Michael Jordan?  Can you help
>> narrow it down, Alice?
>
>I can't narrow it down. But, it *sounds* like a Stuart Scott-ism. Somewhere
>I've saved an essay by him on why it's OK for him to use colloquial
>AAVE-isms in his sportscasts. I want to say that it dates from about the
>time of the Oakland Ebonics fuss, but I'm not sure.

We have Dean Martin's "It's your world, Frank -- I just live in it" c.
1963 (see post upthread).  The hallmark of the AAVE variant seems to be
the use of the progressive form of "live" ("I'm/we're just livin' in it").
 The first Usenet cite I can find for that form is from 1992 in a sigline:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.tv/msg/7416b85fc6b7e645

Cites start appearing on Nexis in 1993:

-----
St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Mar. 19, 1993, p. 4D
"This is Indiana's world and we're just living in it now," Wright State
coach Ralph Underhill said.
-----
New York Times, Aug. 30, 1993, p. D9
"There's a rawness, an honesty," he added during an interview last week in
New York, "that makes you say, 'Yes, these people do know who they're
talking to.' " That is underscored by the campaign's theme: "It's her
world. We're just living in it."
[regarding ad campaign for YM Magazine, targeted to teenage girls]
-----

It's noted as basketball slang in this 1999 "Hoops Glossary":

-----
St. Petersburg Times, Mar. 26, 1999, p. 40X
your world - a complimentary term used for a teammate who can take his
opponent. "It's your world and we're just living in it."
-----

I do recall Stuart Scott using the phrase in the mid- to late '90s, most
often referring to Charles Barkley, I think.


--Ben Zimmer


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  2 01:26:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:26:00 -0800
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.172600.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Have discovered that besides their tedious old meanings, so familiar that I needn't bore you with them, these words have been used in the military with the senses "high-speed Morse operator" and "high-speed Morse receiver/transmitter."  To "dittybop" also means "to transmit Morse code at high speed."

Can any of my distinguished colleagues and consultants add anything to the above from personal experience ?

JL

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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb  2 02:49:55 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:49:55 -0500
Subject: children's chant
In-Reply-To: <20050201141307.L50440@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.214955.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark Mandel has it:

>Larry Scroggs <larry at SCROGGS.COM>notes:
>    >>>>>
>Heard at my school in the late 1950s.
>
>Whistle while you work
>Khrushchev is a jerk
>Eisenhower's got the power
>But it doesn't work.
>  <<<<<
>
>Same time frame but with World War II references:
>
>Whistle while you work
>Hitler was a jerk
>Neeny-neeny*
>Hossifini*

= Josephinie, perhaps?  Not that that helps, particularly, but it
might be a covert allusion to Napoleon.

>Mussolini*
>Bit his peeny*

Interestingly, still leaving unresolved the ambiguity between
auto-mordication and allo-.  Those wild and crazy fascists!

>Then it wouldn't work
>
>*These four lines repeat the same tune. As far as I can tell, the second and
>third are just nonsense, and one can only guess how to spell them.
>
>Well, these are CHILDREN'S chants, so no surprise if they are silly and
>snickering.
>
>-- Mark
>[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Feb  2 02:52:40 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:52:40 -0800
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <20050201155223.5394.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.185240.0800.>

> I don't know if anyone other than myself ever used this as a
> cynical catch phrase, but there was an NBC sitcom about 1964
> inspired, they said. by the life and writings of James Thurber
> which was called,
>
> "My Life and Welcome to It."
>

I've heard the phrase used cynically on occasion, and probably have used it
myself.

But the reference to the TV show is wrong. I knew it couldn't be 1964
because I remember it. Looking it up on IMDB, I find that the series ran
1969-70 (26 episodes) and was called, "My World and Welcome To It," which is
also the title of a 1942 Thurber book (I believe a collection of short
stories). The TV series starred William Windom in the Thurber-like role.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  2 02:53:58 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 18:53:58 -0800
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.185358.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dave, you are correct.  At my age, however, "ABOUT" 1964 does mean anywhere from 1961-1970.

JL

Dave Wilton <dave at WILTON.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Dave Wilton
Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> I don't know if anyone other than myself ever used this as a
> cynical catch phrase, but there was an NBC sitcom about 1964
> inspired, they said. by the life and writings of James Thurber
> which was called,
>
> "My Life and Welcome to It."
>

I've heard the phrase used cynically on occasion, and probably have used it
myself.

But the reference to the TV show is wrong. I knew it couldn't be 1964
because I remember it. Looking it up on IMDB, I find that the series ran
1969-70 (26 episodes) and was called, "My World and Welcome To It," which is
also the title of a 1942 Thurber book (I believe a collection of short
stories). The TV series starred William Windom in the Thurber-like role.

--Dave Wilton
dave at wilton.net
http://www.wilton.net


---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb  2 02:59:18 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 21:59:18 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <E1Cw0fj-0002eB-00@mx09.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.215918.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 1, 2005, at 10:52 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I don't know if anyone other than myself ever used this as a cynical
> catch phrase, but there was an NBC sitcom about 1964 inspired, they
> said. by the life and writings of James Thurber which was called,
>
> "My Life and Welcome to It."
>
> JL

Yes. I remember that show. That is, I've never used the phrase, but
yes, I do remember the TV show,

-Wilson

>
> Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Laurence Horn
> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>> Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>> say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."
>
> This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while. A highlight
> of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
> anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it." At least
> since the late 90's. Maybe first with Michael Jordan? Can you help
> narrow it down, Alice?
>
> larry
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb  2 03:19:53 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:19:53 -0500
Subject: children's chant
In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$7364bu@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.221953.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

So, there really is a word, "peeny." I ran across it in a novel, back
in the '70's. I thought the author had invented it.

-Wilson

On Feb 1, 2005, at 2:17 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: children's chant
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Larry Scroggs <larry at SCROGGS.COM>notes:
>>>>>>
> Heard at my school in the late 1950s.
>
> Whistle while you work
> Khrushchev is a jerk
> Eisenhower's got the power
> But it doesn't work.
>  <<<<<
>
> Same time frame but with World War II references:
>
> Whistle while you work
> Hitler was a jerk
> Neeny-neeny*
> Hossifini*
> Mussolini*
> Bit his peeny*
> Then it wouldn't work
>
> *These four lines repeat the same tune. As far as I can tell, the
> second and
> third are just nonsense, and one can only guess how to spell them.
>
> Well, these are CHILDREN'S chants, so no surprise if they are silly and
> snickering.
>
> -- Mark
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb  2 03:44:40 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 22:44:40 -0500
Subject: Somewhat off- topic
In-Reply-To: <E1Cw52p-0000uw-00@mx03.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.224440.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No offense, George, but, as a retired librarian who once nearly had a
nervous breakdown trying - eventually, successfully - to locate a
number of this serial for a patron, I'd like to add that this
periodical is very often cataloged under "Folklore Fellows
communications" and not under merely "FF communications," at some of
this country's finer libraries.

-Wilson

On Feb 1, 2005, at 3:54 PM, George Thompson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Somewhat off- topic
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Archer Taylor wrote a history of the nose-thumbing gesture: The
> Shanghai Gesture.  Helsinki: Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia (Academia
> Scientiarum Fennica) 1956.  76 pp.  FF communications ;  no 166.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
> Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2005 3:35 pm
> Subject: Somewhat off- topic
>
>> This query is somewhat off-topic of dialect.  Is there a history of
>> gestures (e.g. middle-fingering and finger wagging [often
>> accompanied by
>> tsk-tsking])?  I'm sure the mummy in The Mummy Returns is
>> anachronizingwhen he wags his finger at the young boy.  The same
>> may be true of Walter
>> Eckland (in Father Goose, a movie set in WWII) who is reported to have
>> used a gesture of disgust and frustration by the harbour masters
>> lackey.
>> Regards,
>> David
>>
>> barnhart at highlands.com
>>
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb  2 04:10:26 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:10:26 -0500
Subject: Children's chant
In-Reply-To: <E1Cw7so-0007C4-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.231026.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Whoa! Many thanks, Jon!

I wonder whether the makers of Serutan are still in business. It's been
decades (BTW, I've heard Bill Kurtis, the host of Cold Case, twice
pronounce this as "dekkids," St. Louis-style; he's a native of
someplace in Kansas) since I've seen or heard an ad for that stuff.

-Wilson

On Feb 1, 2005, at 6:56 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Children's chant
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I may be able to help you out there, young man.  The 1914-18 version
> of "I Don't Want to Join the Army" (based on an English music-hall
> tune) was as follows:
>
> (NOT FOR OFFENDABLE PEOPLE !)
>
> I don't want to be a soldier !
> I don't want to go to war !
> I'd rather hang around
> Piccadilly Underground,
> Living on the earnings of a lay-dee ty-pist !
> I don't want a bayonet up my arsehole !
> I don't want my ballocks shot away !
> I'd rather stay in England,
> Merry, merry England,
> And fornicate my fucking life away !
>
> Then of course there is the interwar American frat song that goes,
>
> 'Twas a cold winter's evening,
> The guests were all leaving,
> O'Reilly was closing the bar.
> And roughly he said,
> To a Lady in Red -
> "Get out ! You can't stay where you are !"
>
> She wept a sad tear in her bucket of beer,
> As she thought of the cold night ahead,
> When a gentleman dapper
> Stepped out of the crapper,
> And these are the words that he saaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiid :
>
> "Her mother never told her
> All the things a young girl should know -
> About the ways of college men,
> And how they come and go. (OOOOOOOOO moooost - leeee goooooooooooo
> !!!!!)
> Age has now taken her beauty,
> And Sin has left its sad scar.
> So think of your mothers and sisters, boys,
> And let her....sleep under...the baaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrr !
>
> And so we end another trip down Memory Lane, brought to you by Serutan.
> And Serutan, spelled backwards, is "Nature's" !
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Children's chant
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Feb 1, 2005, at 10:13 AM, George Thompson wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: George Thompson
>> Subject: Re: Children's chant
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Larry Horn submits:
>>
>>> and then there was the related (via Col. Bogey rather than Disney, of
>>> course) verse, discussed on the list some years ago,
>>>
>>> Hitler # had only one, left ball,
>>> Goering # had two but they were small.
>>> Himmler # had something similar,
>>> And Goebbals
>>> Had no balls
>>> At all.
>>>
>>
>> Brendan Behan quotes this in Borstal Boy.
>>
>> GAT
>>
>> George A. Thompson
>> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
>> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>>
>
> This was also very popular as a barracks time-killer and
> mood-lightener, when I was in the Army, except that it was Hitler who
> had no balls at all.
>
> There were a couple of other barracks ballads that I can't quite
> recall, but which someone else may recognize.
>
> I don't want to join the Army
> I don't want to go to war
> I don't want to get me arse shah-toff
> Etc.
>
> ?...?
> ?...?
> A gentleman dapper
> Stepped out of the crapper
> ?...?
> ?...?
> Her mother never told (or "taught"?) her
> The things a young girl should know
> Etc.
>
> There was also a chant used only by NCO's to troops being formed up for
> inspection:
>
> Dress right!
> Dress!
> Dress and cover!
> Dress and cover!
> Dress it up and cover down!
> Eighteen inches all around!
> Dress and cover!
> Dress and cover!
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb  2 04:23:32 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:23:32 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <E1Cw8Ym-0003JQ-00@mx05.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.1.FEB.2005.232332.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You're familiar with the supposed Chinese curse, "May you live in
interesting times!" no doubt. I once lived an interesting life. As the
guy said after stripping himself naked and then leaping into a cactus
patch, "It seemed like a good idea, at the time." Oh, well. Old too
soon; smart too late.

-Wilson

On Feb 1, 2005, at 7:24 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson, you are a veritable gold mine of seedy information. I am
> always in awe of your
> word whored - I mean "hoard."
>
> By my students' standards, Jon Stewart *is* a senior citizen. Where
> that leaves us, I just don't want to think about.
>
> JL
>
>
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Feb 1, 2005, at 1:58 PM, Baker, John wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: "Baker, John"
>> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> The earliest I see on Westlaw is the Seattle-Times, 6/22/1986,
>> where it's a reference to Bo Jackson. But Westlaw poops out around
>> that time, so the absence of earlier cites there is not significant.
>> I've always heard this as referring to Frank Sinatra, and indeed there
>> is a 9/16/1987 use in the Boston Globe to refer to Sinatra.
>>
>> It's got to go back farther than this. What surprised me was
>> the vast range of people to whom it can refer.
>>
>> John Baker
>
>
>> "It's got to go back farther than this."
>
> You mean, WRT a citation in print? (BTW, congratulations on your use of
> "farther" in this environment.) I first heard a very similar phrase in
> 1954 - the year that I graduated from high school and I have no reason
> to think that the first person that I heard say it also coined it.
>
> A couple of weeks back, I heard Jon Stewart use the phrase, "Get your
> heels to clicking." ("Get to stepping" was an occasional variant.) Not
> only was this the first time that I'd ever a white person use this, but
> it was also the first time that I'd heard it said since the mid-'60's
> in L.A. and the first time that I'd heard it used by a "square," in
> this case, someone who wasn't a pimp. Rarely - any whore who'd been
> broken in and turned out for a week or so would know better than to do
> anything that would cause her pimp to have to take her to task - a pimp
> might use this phrase to enjoin his whores to work harder, not smarter,
> when he was, e.g. gambling away "his" money faster than his whores
> could bring it in.
>
> The phrase's meaning and use were so restricted back in the day that
> I'm stunned and amazed that any non-senior citizen at all living in the
> 21st century could possibly have even heard it, let alone find a reason
> to use it.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On
>> Behalf
>> Of Laurence Horn
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:14 AM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
>>
>>
>> At 12:11 AM -0500 2/1/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>> Another first: on a sitcom, I heard a white character
>>> say: "It's your world. I'm just living in it."
>>
>> This has been big on ESPN's SportsCenter for a while. A highlight
>> of, say, a basketball player X making a great move is shown and the
>> anchor says "It's X's world; we're just living in it." At least
>> since the late 90's. Maybe first with Michael Jordan? Can you help
>> narrow it down, Alice?
>>
>> larry
>>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Feb  2 05:17:14 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 00:17:14 -0500
Subject: red states, blue states (redux)
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.001714.0500.>

After the WOTY selection of "red/blue/purple states", I offered some
evidence that the red=Rep/blue=Dem color scheme might go all the way back
to the Washington Post's electoral map of 1908:

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0501A&L=ads-l&P=R9102

Regardless of what the Post did nearly a century ago, TV networks did not
regularly assign red to Republicans and blue to Democrats in the color-TV
era.  (I guess the overwhelming "red state/blue state" rhetoric of 2000
and 2004 had, uh, "colored" my memory.)  I discovered this after reading a
recent blog entry by Mickey Kaus on Slate:

-----
http://slate.msn.com/id/2112917/
This has to be old, but has someone written the piece that actually
explains how Republican states became "red," even though red is the color
of communism and blue is the color of Republican hair? ... It wasn't
always so. Here's a site that goes with the originally more intuitive
Dems-are-red convention. ... P.S.: Safire mentioned the shift in a column
but didn't come close to getting to the bottom of the media conspiracy.
... Update: Kevin Drum has an on-point post that raises as many questions
as it answers!
-----

Kaus links to the following very informative piece by Kevin Drum (who
writes the "Political Animal" blog for the Washington Monthly):

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2004_11/005157.php

Apparently, the networks decided in 1976 that the color of the incumbent
party would alternate every 4 years, in order to avoid any appearance of
favoritism.  Interestingly, the color coding is supposed to switch in
2008, with blue for Republicans and red for Democrats (as was often the
case from 1976 to 1996).  Drum notes that "the red state/blue state divide
has now become so entrenched it's hard to imagine anyone switching colors
at this point."  I would agree-- the "red/blue/purple" concept is here to
stay (no passing fancy like, say, "bushlips"!).


--Ben Zimmer


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Feb  2 06:06:14 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 01:06:14 -0500
Subject: Wilde Quotation
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.010614.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred,

I checked Proquest using ["my genius"/declare] and ["nothing to
declare"/genius] and found nothing before 1922 that was about Wilde.

SC

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 5:09 PM
Subject: Wilde Quotation


> I am again in a place without access to ProQuest Historical Newspapers.
> Is anyone willing to search PQHN to see whether there are any pre-1916
> occurrences of Oscar Wilde's quotation, "I have nothing to declare except
> my genius"?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb  2 08:54:43 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 03:54:43 EST
Subject: Nothing to declare; Sin to steal a pin (1868); Red Garlic & Big
 Apple
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.035443.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NOTHING TO DECLARE
...
I haven't yet tried the American Periodical Series Online, but I regret to
report (like Sam) that I have nothing to declare. I'm no genius.
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
SIN TO STEAL A PIN
...
More on this proverb.
...
...
(MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL)
...

    *   _The Living age ... / Volume 91, Issue 1178_
(http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=/moa/livn/livn009
1/&tif=00779.TIF&cite=http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notis
id=ABR0102-0091-15) : pp.  769-824
    *   _p. 810_
(http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/pageviewer?frames=1&coll=moa&view=50&root=/moa/livn/livn0091/&tif=00820.TIF&cite=http://cdl.lib
rary.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/moa/moa-cgi?notisid=ABR0102-0091-15)
    *   1 match of 'sin to steal a pin'


____________________________________
in:     Title: The Living age ... / Volume 91, Issue 1178  Publisher: The
Living age co. inc. etc. Publication Date: December 29, 1866
...
...otherwise they would be of nor more poetical value than the assertion
that two and two make four, or that it is a sin to steal a pin.
...
...
...
(MAKING OF AMERICA--MICHIGAN)


Title: The philosophers of  Foufouville.
Publication date:  1868.
Collection: Making of  America Books

_Page  168_
(http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;g=moagrp;xc=1;sid=1744a2ae6a7b9822c283142692c64624;q1=sin%20to%20steal%20a%20pi
n;rgn=full%20text;idno=AEW1145.0001.001;view=image;seq=00000173)   - 1  term
matching "sin to steal a pin"
...
What was his disgust when he found that the document was  a sermon on the sin
of theft! It began with the poetical assertion that
...
"It is a sin to steal a pin,--
Much more to steal a greater thing."
...
...




Title: Varieties
Publication Info.:  Appletons' journal: a magazine of general literature. /
Volume 4, Issue 83, Oct  29, 1870, pp.535
Collection: Making of  America Journal Articles

_Varieties, p.535_
(http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moajrnl;cc=moajrnl;g=moagrp;xc=1;sid=470d746f0bb8e4f6aedf4afda0ed413c;q1=sin%20to%2
0steal%20a%20pin;rgn=full%20text;idno=acw8433.1-04.083;view=image;seq=0579)
_Page  535_
(http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moajrnl;cc=moajrnl;g=moagrp;xc=1;sid=470d746f0bb8e4f6aedf4afda0ed413c;q1=sin%20to%20steal%
20a%20pin;rgn=full%20text;idno=acw8433.1-04.083;view=image;seq=0579)   - 1
term matching "sin to steal a pin"




...
A colored poet of Memphis has reduced the Fifteenth  Amendment and the
Enforcement Bill to rhyme, as follows:
...'
"It is a sin to steal a pin.
A crime to cut a throat--
But a darned sight bigger to stop a nigger
>From putting in his vote."
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC
...
WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON MONDAY?--Bangkok Grand  Palace, 882 First Avenue
between East 49th and 50th streets. This is near the  UN. Good food,
reasonable prices.
...
WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON TUESDAY?--Red Garlic (Thai  Seafood Cuisine),
916 Eighth Avenue between West 54th and 55th streets. I was  told that the owner
has several NYC Thai restaurants under different names. I  tried PLA LAD
PRIG, "The most famous Thai fish dish, deep-fried whole red  snapper with chili,
pepper & red garlic chili sauce." I didn't particularly  care for it, but it's
still a nice place.
...
At the entrance, I picked up NYC OFFICIAL CITY GUIDE  (citygui
demagazine.com), weekly, January 27, 2005. This is from page 196 on  Dining:
...
_Red Garlic_
Try some of New York City's freshest seafood Thai  cuisine at this casual and
friendly restaurant. If you're looking for a dining  recommendation, be sure
to try the roasted rice wrapped with banana leaf. (...)  _www.redgarlic.com_
(http://www.redgarlic.com)
...
On the column next to this was a highlighted  trivia blurb that said this:
...
Did you know that "The Big Apple" is a term coined by  musicians meaning to
play "the big time"? A club in Harlem, once called "The Big  Apple," is now a
pharmacy.
...
...
SOMEBODY SHOOT ME! I gave them the correct information  thirteen years ago,
when its former president Charles Gillett was still alive!  I've told them for
thirteen years that the black stablehands who called New York  City "the Big
Apple" must be honored by searching for any surviving relatives as  soon as
possible! I passed a city law eight years ago! "The Big  Apple" wasn't coined by
musicians! The Big Apple club is not now a  pharmacy! This is in the goddamn
Official City  Guide!


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Wed Feb  2 09:50:33 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:50:33 +0000
Subject: Children's chant
In-Reply-To: <200502012356.j11NuY2h001629@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.095033.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 1/2/05 11:56 pm, Jonathan Lighter at wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Children's chant
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> I may be able to help you out there, young man.  The 1914-18 version of "I
> Don't Want to Join the Army" (based on an English music-hall tune) was as
> follows:
>
> (NOT FOR OFFENDABLE PEOPLE !)
>
> I don't want to be a soldier !
> I don't want to go to war !
> I'd rather hang around
> Piccadilly Underground,
> Living on the earnings of a lay-dee ty-pist !
> I don't want a bayonet up my arsehole !
> I don't want my ballocks shot away !
> I'd rather stay in England,
> Merry, merry England,
> And fornicate my fucking life away !

> JL

In the version I know, the lay-dee ty-pist is a high-flown lay-dee.
Neil Crawford


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Wed Feb  2 10:15:20 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:15:20 +0000
Subject: peenee/peenie/peeny
In-Reply-To: <200502020319.j123JwmW005163@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.101520.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 2/2/05 3:19 am, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> Subject:      Re: children's chant
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> So, there really is a word, "peeny." I ran across it in a novel, back
> in the '70's. I thought the author had invented it.
>
> -Wilson

A couple of variant spellings:

'An interesting tribe are the Sweenies,
Renowned for the length of their peenies.
The hair on their balls
Sweeps the floors of their halls,
But they don't look at women, the meanies.'
- G. Legman, 'The Limerick', Les Hautes Etudes, Paris, 1953, No.244

'At that age [four], whatever he loves he considers the same as his peenee,
the most important part of himself and he's terrified of losing it.'
- Philip Barrows [Daniel R. Tuite], 'Whores, Queers and Others', Vol 1,
Traveller's Companion, NY, 1967, 161

-Neil Crawford
>
> On Feb 1, 2005, at 2:17 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
>> Subject:      Re: children's chant
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>> Larry Scroggs <larry at SCROGGS.COM>notes:
>>>>>>>
>> Heard at my school in the late 1950s.
>>
>> Whistle while you work
>> Hitler was a jerk
>> Neeny-neeny*
>> Hossifini*
>> Mussolini*
>> Bit his peeny*
>> Then it wouldn't work
>> -- Mark


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Feb  2 10:46:04 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 05:46:04 -0500
Subject: Lockjaw: Locust Valley (1970), Long Island (1977),
 Larchmont (1986)
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.054604.0500.>

Digging up a couple of Safire's "On Language" columns...

-----
Dec. 21, 1986:
Larchmont lockjaw is a mysterious message left for me, with no further
explanation, by my colleague Russell Baker. This alliterative geographic
slur may refer to a type of speech by yuppies, but since neither Mr. Baker
nor I am young or upwardly mobile, I must assume it has something to do
with the accent of upper-class lowerclassmen returning to suburbia from
ritzy finishing schools; obviously, more research is needed on this
locution.
-----
Jan. 18, 1987:
It began in a New York minute after a piece about geographical
derogations, the use of place names as modifiers to sneer at a trait or an
occupation. My colleague Russell Baker passed along a cryptic message -
"Larchmont lockjaw" - which I took to mean the pronunciation affected by
yuppies. I then passed it along to the Philadelphia lawyers who read this
column as the speech affected by "upper-class lowerclassmen returning to
suburbia."
Came the deluge. "The correct phrase is Locust Valley lockjaw," insists
Arthur Knapp Jr. of Larchmont, N.Y., where the famed Larchmont Yacht Club
faces Locust Valley, L.I., across the Long Island Sound barrier. He claims
that locution denotes the speech of "the yacht-racing members of the
highly social Seawanhaka Corinthian Yacht Club located on Oyster Bay, many
of whom live in or around Locust Valley." Mr. Knapp, a prominent
yachtsman, says, "You cannot pin that way of talking on Larchmont. We are
too close to the 'Bronnix' for that to happen."
-----

Safire quotes Willard Espy, who recalls "Larchmont lockjaw" from the early
'30s.  I can't find any cites for it before the '86 "On Language" column.
It's preceded in the databases by "Locust Valley lockjaw" and "Long Island
lockjaw", but I haven't found anything before the '70s.

-----
1970 _New York Times Magazine_ 13 Sep. 83 She spoke, as many of the women
did, in a tongue called Locust Valley Lockjaw, a passionless manner of
speaking that can flatten a superlative against the roof of the mouth
until it comes out sounding like understatement.
-----
1977 _Washington Post_ 1 May M1 (Nexis) Her voice, her accent are
expected, the slightly British tones that reflect the proper Boston
upbringing with the slightly clenched teeth, known in some quarters as
"Long Island lockjaw," that reflect the Old Westbury residence.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From silliman at GMAIL.COM  Wed Feb  2 11:59:20 2005
From: silliman at GMAIL.COM (Ron Silliman)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 06:59:20 -0500
Subject: Numbers for words (was Teen Lingo Site)
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.065920.0500.SILLIMAN@GMAIL.COM>

I noted that that site identifies as "police call numbers" a series of
codes 187, 211, 411. Those codes are in fact the sections of the
California Penal Code under which the various crimes -- e.g. homocide
at 187 -- are declared to be illegal. So that language has already
gone through one level of abstraction whenever a police dispatcher
uses the number rather than the act to describe an event. Because so
many TV shows are set in California, an awful lot of state code has
become more widely known as generic terms for different events and
conditions. Thus a heavy metal band some years back had an album (in
pre-CD days) called 5150, the code under which a person could be
committed as a danger to him- or her-self and others.

Ron Silliman


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb  2 13:04:59 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:04:59 -0500
Subject: Burma-Shave
In-Reply-To: <23dd09123da705.23da70523dd091@nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.080459.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, George Thompson wrote:

> GAT, the guy who still looks things up in books, notes that there is an
> article on the Burma-Shave roadside advertisements in the St. James
> Encyclopedia of Popular Culture (Detroit : St. James Press, c2000

Is anyone able to suggest to me the one or two most famous Burma-Shave
jingles?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Feb  2 13:45:58 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:45:58 -0500
Subject: Numbers for words (was Teen Lingo Site)
In-Reply-To: <44dbacd805020203594d86f5ca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.084558.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 2, 2005, at 06:59, Ron Silliman wrote:
>  Thus a heavy metal band some years back had an album (in
> pre-CD days) called 5150

I would hardly call Van Halen a heavy metal band. Maybe not even metal.
How about just rock? Loud rock? Hair band? Hair band formerly fronted
by a guy who's now a balding EMT?

Also, nitpick central, but in 1986 53 million CD players were sold in
the US (according to this page:
<http://www.oneoffcd.com/info/historycd.cfm>).

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb  2 15:08:20 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:08:20 -0500
Subject: peenee/peenie/peeny
In-Reply-To: <BE2658B8.1A1A%neil@typog.co.uk>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.100820.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:15 AM +0000 2/2/05, neil wrote:
>on 2/2/05 3:19 am, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote:
>
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>  -----------------------
>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>  Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>>  Subject:      Re: children's chant
>>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--> -
>>
>>  So, there really is a word, "peeny." I ran across it in a novel, back
>>  in the '70's. I thought the author had invented it.
>>
>>  -Wilson
>
>A couple of variant spellings:
>
>'An interesting tribe are the Sweenies,
>Renowned for the length of their peenies.

Another possibility is that this is a reanalysis of Lat. _penes_, the
straightforward plural of the 3rd declension noun _penis_.  (Macrons
omitted out of delicacy, since length is variable.)

L

>The hair on their balls
>Sweeps the floors of their halls,
>But they don't look at women, the meanies.'
>- G. Legman, 'The Limerick', Les Hautes Etudes, Paris, 1953, No.244
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  2 15:08:16 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 07:08:16 -0800
Subject: "withdrawl" = withdraw
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.070816.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From a customer review at Amazon.com:

"In 1954, the French had to withdrawl and the Genevea accords were signed. This called for Ho Chi Minh and his group to withdrawl to the North of the country and the French puppet Bao Dai's government to be in control of the South."

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060921072/qid=1107356566/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/102-0432862-1022504


JL


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo!


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb  2 15:24:37 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:24:37 -0600
Subject: Burma-Shave
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.092437.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A Peach looks good
With Lots of Fuzz
Man's no Peach
And Never Was
Burma Shave


>
> Is anyone able to suggest to me the one or two most famous
> Burma-Shave jingles?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Feb  2 15:30:26 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:30:26 -0500
Subject: Somewhat off- topic
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.103026.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quite right.

I was at one time quietly proud -- well, mayby noisily proud -- of the
fact that I was the only person in my circle to have read both this
book and Charles Darwin's study of the earthworm.

Taylor's book might be interesting to David Barnhart because of the
range of evidence from history, literature and art that Taylor had to
gather.  As I recall, he concluded that the nose-thumbing gesture was
relatively recent, and a pervesion of the military slaute.

Darwin's books would be of interest to all who are interested in
earthworms and their well-being.  Among other things, he shows that
earthworms are completely indifferenct to music.  He put a tray of them
on his piano but got no reaction to whatever he played -- of course,
they all stood to attention when he played God Save the Queen; but an
English earthworm could do no less.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

----- Original Message -----
From: Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2005 10:44 pm
Subject: Re: Somewhat off- topic

> No offense, George, but, as a retired librarian who once nearly
> had a
> nervous breakdown trying - eventually, successfully - to locate a
> number of this serial for a patron, I'd like to add that this
> periodical is very often cataloged under "Folklore Fellows
> communications" and not under merely "FF communications," at some of
> this country's finer libraries.
>
> -Wilson
>
> On Feb 1, 2005, at 3:54 PM, George Thompson wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> > Subject:      Re: Somewhat off- topic
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> > --------
> >
> > Archer Taylor wrote a history of the nose-thumbing gesture: The
> > Shanghai Gesture.  Helsinki: Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia (Academia
> > Scientiarum Fennica) 1956.  76 pp.  FF communications ;  no 166.
> >
> > GAT
> >
> > George A. Thompson
> > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre",
> Northwestern> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
> > Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2005 3:35 pm
> > Subject: Somewhat off- topic
> >
> >> This query is somewhat off-topic of dialect.  Is there a
> history of
> >> gestures (e.g. middle-fingering and finger wagging [often
> >> accompanied by
> >> tsk-tsking])?  I'm sure the mummy in The Mummy Returns is
> >> anachronizingwhen he wags his finger at the young boy.  The same
> >> may be true of Walter
> >> Eckland (in Father Goose, a movie set in WWII) who is reported
> to have
> >> used a gesture of disgust and frustration by the harbour masters
> >> lackey.
> >> Regards,
> >> David
> >>
> >> barnhart at highlands.com
> >>
> >
>


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb  2 15:36:19 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 09:36:19 -0600
Subject: yogasm
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.093619.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From The Smoking Gun website:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0131052yogi1.html

Sex And The Yogi
Yankee great sues TBS for misappropriating his reputable name
 JANUARY 31--Claiming that his good name has been sullied by a "Sex and
the City" advertisement, baseball legend Yogi Berra has sued Turner
Broadcasting System for $10 million. In the below New York State Supreme
Court complaint, Berra, 79, contends that TBS improperly used his name
in outdoor ads (on buses and subway kiosks) promoting the cable
channel's reruns of the racy HBO show starring Sarah Jessica Parker.
Noting that he is a married grandfather and a "deeply religious man who
has maintained and continues to maintain a moral lifestyle," the former
New York Yankee claims that he has been tainted by the ad, which
references the loose lifestyle of "Sex" character Samantha, portrayed by
Kim Cattrall. The offensive ads, Berra reported, sought the definition
of the term "Yogasm." One of the possible definitions listed in the ad
was, "b) sex with Yogi Berra." The correct answer was "c) what Samantha
has with a guy from yoga class."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb  2 15:41:50 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:41:50 -0500
Subject: "withdrawl" = withdraw
In-Reply-To: <20050202150816.28500.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.104150.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:08 AM -0800 2/2/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>  >From a customer review at Amazon.com:
>
>"In 1954, the French had to withdrawl and the Genevea accords were
>signed. This called for Ho Chi Minh and his group to withdrawl to
>the North of the country and the French puppet Bao Dai's government
>to be in control of the South."
>
Yes, and the Vietnam analogy is apropos, since the term goes back to
our own Civil War/War Between the States/War of Northern Aggression,
when Yankee soldiers noticed the funny way the Rebels spoke--"with
drawl"--as they were retreating under heavy fire from outposts
previously held.

Larry


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Feb  2 15:42:47 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:42:47 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re=3A_=EF=BF=BD_=EF=BF=BD_=EF=BF=BD_=22Mazda_bul?=
 =?iso-8859-1?Q?bs=22?=
In-Reply-To: <20050202050030.9C5FBB250C@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.104247.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Did James Smith <jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM> really put bunches of weird
characters in his subject line?
I see the sequence

        lowercase i-dieresis
        inverted question mark
        "1/2" character
        spacebar

iterated three times before the opening quotation mark of

        "Mazda bulbs"

Procrastinating minds want to know.

-- Mark A. Mandel


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Feb  2 15:43:21 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:43:21 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <20050202050030.9C5FBB250C@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.104321.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM> reminisces:
>>>
 I don't know if anyone other than myself ever used this as a cynical catch
phrase, but there was an NBC sitcom about 1964 inspired, they said. by the
life and writings of James Thurber which was called, "My Life and Welcome to
It."
 <<<

My {{World}} and Welcome to It, IIRC.

mark by hand


From bhunter3 at MINDSPRING.COM  Wed Feb  2 15:42:13 2005
From: bhunter3 at MINDSPRING.COM (Bruce Hunter)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 07:42:13 -0800
Subject: Burma-Shave
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.074213.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Is anyone able to suggest to me the one or two most famous
> Burma-Shave jingles?
Safety should not
Be left to chance.
That's why belts
Are sold with pants.
Burma Shave

Bruce Hunter


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Feb  2 16:22:01 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:22:01 -0500
Subject: disposable garbage bags
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.112201.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from a friend:

See below for an amusing LJ entry from Martin [...], and my response.

>>>>>

> I have just bought, I kid you not, a packet of "disposable garbage bags".
> If that's a retronym, I *really* don't want to know.

    My one thought is that it's perhaps a back-translation of a
    mistranslation of biodegradable? Otherwise, it really doesn't make sense.

<<<<<

-- Mark A. Mandel
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Wed Feb  2 16:26:21 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:26:21 -0500
Subject: Burma-Shave
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.112621.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There are discussions of the Burma-Shave ads in several other handbooks
of popular culture.  One gives the first and the last jingle, another
gives only parts of the jingles.  The fact that no jingle is quoted by
more than one source suggests that there isn't a "most famous" one.
The St. James Encycl, that I cited yesterday, quotes "Pity all / the
Mighty Caesars / They pulled / each whisker out / with tweezers / Burma-
Shave"; "Does your husband / misbehave / grunt and grumble / rant and
rave / shoot the brute some / Burma-Shave"; "The answer to / a maiden's
prayer / is not a chin / of stubby hair / Burma-Shave"; "Train
approaching / Whistle squealing / pause / avoid that / run-down
feeling. / [Burma-Shave]"
The other books are Ray B. Browne, The Guide to United States Popular
Culture, Bowling Green State University Popular Press, 2001; William H.
Young, The 1930s.  (American Popular Culture through History) Greenwood
Press, 2002; Tad Tuleja, The New York Public Library Book of Popular
Americana, Macmillan, 1994.

Jerry Kane, Wilson Gray and Alan Baragona have already posted Burma-
Shave quatrains that stuck in their memories.

I have lured my wife into lurking over our discussions, in the hope
that she will occasionally channel for the spirit of her mother, one of
the last of the old-time prescriptivist high-school English teachers.
My wife has a favorite Burma-Shave jingle which I will refrain from
posting myself until later this week, to give her a chance to step
forward.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2005 8:04 am
Subject: Re: Burma-Shave

> On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, George Thompson wrote:
>
> > GAT, the guy who still looks things up in books, notes that
> there is an
> > article on the Burma-Shave roadside advertisements in the St. James
> > Encyclopedia of Popular Culture (Detroit : St. James Press, c2000
>
> Is anyone able to suggest to me the one or two most famous Burma-Shave
> jingles?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF
> QUOTATIONS  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale
> University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu
> http://quotationdictionary.com-------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  2 16:52:12 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:52:12 -0800
Subject: "withdrawl" = withdraw
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.085212.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, Larry. I couldn't have said it better myself.

JL

Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: "withdrawl" = withdraw
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 7:08 AM -0800 2/2/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> >From a customer review at Amazon.com:
>
>"In 1954, the French had to withdrawl and the Genevea accords were
>signed. This called for Ho Chi Minh and his group to withdrawl to
>the North of the country and the French puppet Bao Dai's government
>to be in control of the South."
>
Yes, and the Vietnam analogy is apropos, since the term goes back to
our own Civil War/War Between the States/War of Northern Aggression,
when Yankee soldiers noticed the funny way the Rebels spoke--"with
drawl"--as they were retreating under heavy fire from outposts
previously held.

Larry

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  2 16:53:15 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:53:15 -0800
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.085315.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU> wrote:---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mark A. Mandel"
Subject: Re: Teen Lingo site
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jonathan Lighter reminisces:
>>>
I don't know if anyone other than myself ever used this as a cynical catch
phrase, but there was an NBC sitcom about 1964 inspired, they said. by the
life and writings of James Thurber which was called, "My Life and Welcome to
It."
<<<

My {{World}} and Welcome to It, IIRC.

mark by hand



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Feb  2 16:56:55 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 08:56:55 -0800
Subject: Burma-Shave
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502020804190.31462-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.085655.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Around the curve
Lickety-split
It's a beautiful car
Wasn't it?
Burma Shave

(Don't know whether it's the most famous, but it's the only one I remember
by heart.)

Peter Mc.

--On Wednesday, February 2, 2005 8:04 AM -0500 Fred Shapiro
<fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> wrote:

> Is anyone able to suggest to me the one or two most famous Burma-Shave
> jingles?



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU  Wed Feb  2 17:13:41 2005
From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 11:13:41 -0600
Subject: articles on euphemisms for sex
In-Reply-To: <6F31AA8C-7410-11D9-B501-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.111341.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

After having been introduced to the term 'frottage' through this discussion,
I was amused to hear it used on a home improvement show last night. In that
context it's apparently used to describe a technique of texturing a freshly
painted surface by rubbing paper against it - a development no doubt of OED
sense 2.


On 1/31/05 11:16 PM, "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU> wrote:


> in my experience they do.  frottage is one of what i think of as the
> Four Ways and Places for gay men: on the body, in the hand, in the
> mouth, in the ass.  very safe, and easily allows for lots of affection.
>   it's practically decorous.
>
> of course, other people's mileages certainly vary.
>
> arnold


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Feb  2 17:43:05 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:43:05 -0500
Subject: Somewhat off- topic
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.124305.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Hollis,

Perhaps Father Walter would find this interesting.  Apropos of this, when
did the sign of the cross begin.  Isn't that about the most common
religious gesture?

Love,
Dave

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Wednesday, February
02, 2005 at 10:30 AM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: Somewhat off- topic
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Quite right.
>
>I was at one time quietly proud -- well, mayby noisily proud -- of the
>fact that I was the only person in my circle to have read both this
>book and Charles Darwin's study of the earthworm.
>
>Taylor's book might be interesting to David Barnhart because of the
>range of evidence from history, literature and art that Taylor had to
>gather.  As I recall, he concluded that the nose-thumbing gesture was
>relatively recent, and a pervesion of the military slaute.
>
>Darwin's books would be of interest to all who are interested in
>earthworms and their well-being.  Among other things, he shows that
>earthworms are completely indifferenct to music.  He put a tray of them
>on his piano but got no reaction to whatever he played -- of course,
>they all stood to attention when he played God Save the Queen; but an
>English earthworm could do no less.
>
>GAT
>
>George A. Thompson
>Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
>Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2005 10:44 pm
>Subject: Re: Somewhat off- topic
>
>> No offense, George, but, as a retired librarian who once nearly
>> had a
>> nervous breakdown trying - eventually, successfully - to locate a
>> number of this serial for a patron, I'd like to add that this
>> periodical is very often cataloged under "Folklore Fellows
>> communications" and not under merely "FF communications," at some of
>> this country's finer libraries.
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>> On Feb 1, 2005, at 3:54 PM, George Thompson wrote:
>>
>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> > -----------------------
>> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster:       George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
>> > Subject:      Re: Somewhat off- topic
>> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------
>> > --------
>> >
>> > Archer Taylor wrote a history of the nose-thumbing gesture: The
>> > Shanghai Gesture.  Helsinki: Suomalainen Tiedeakatemia (Academia
>> > Scientiarum Fennica) 1956.  76 pp.  FF communications ;  no 166.
>> >
>> > GAT
>> >
>> > George A. Thompson
>> > Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre",
>> Northwestern> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
>> > Date: Tuesday, February 1, 2005 3:35 pm
>> > Subject: Somewhat off- topic
>> >
>> >> This query is somewhat off-topic of dialect.  Is there a
>> history of
>> >> gestures (e.g. middle-fingering and finger wagging [often
>> >> accompanied by
>> >> tsk-tsking])?  I'm sure the mummy in The Mummy Returns is
>> >> anachronizingwhen he wags his finger at the young boy.  The same
>> >> may be true of Walter
>> >> Eckland (in Father Goose, a movie set in WWII) who is reported
>> to have
>> >> used a gesture of disgust and frustration by the harbour masters
>> >> lackey.
>> >> Regards,
>> >> David
>> >>
>> >> barnhart at highlands.com
>> >>
>> >
>>


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Feb  2 17:45:33 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:45:33 -0500
Subject: Somewhat off- topic
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.124533.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry for the personal message sent to me wife.

Regards,
David


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb  2 17:52:43 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:52:43 -0500
Subject: disposable garbage bags
In-Reply-To: <20050202111839.U44967@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.125243.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:22 AM -0500 2/2/05, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>from a friend:
>
>See below for an amusing LJ entry from Martin [...], and my response.
>
>>>>>>
>
>>I have just bought, I kid you not, a packet of "disposable garbage bags".
>>If that's a retronym, I *really* don't want to know.

a double-barreled one at that:
[disposable [garbage bag]] vs. [[disposable garbage] bag]

and it's not easy to find bags for the non-disposable kind

L


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Feb  2 17:58:15 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:58:15 -0500
Subject: disposable garbage bags
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.125815.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The term has come to be a misnomer.  They are used for so much else:
moving, storing, laundry, the list is nearly endless.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Wed Feb  2 18:08:24 2005
From: vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Victoria Neufeldt)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:08:24 -0600
Subject: Burma-Shave
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1107334615@[10.218.201.228]>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.120824.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have been wondering, on reading all these Burma Shave jingles, who
wrote them.  Was it a committee?  One bright light in an ad agency?
Might this be documented anywhere?

Victoria


Victoria Neufeldt
727 9th Street East
Saskatoon, Sask.
S7H 0M6
Canada
Tel: 306-955-8910




On Wednesday, February 02, 2005 10:57 AM, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>
> Around the curve
> Lickety-split
> It's a beautiful car
> Wasn't it?
> Burma Shave
>
> (Don't know whether it's the most famous, but it's the only
> one I remember
> by heart.)
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> --On Wednesday, February 2, 2005 8:04 AM -0500 Fred Shapiro
> <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>
> > Is anyone able to suggest to me the one or two most
> famous Burma-Shave
> > jingles?
>
>
>
> *****************************************************************
> Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.659 / Virus Database: 423 - Release Date: 4/15/04


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Feb  2 18:10:17 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:10:17 -0500
Subject: Big Apple
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.131017.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Isn't it time for someone to do a thesis on the genealogies of all the
various accounts of how the Big Apple got its name? Who cited whom & when ,
and why was that version preferred over another, etc?  It's clear there
must be masses of material, even if only publication in periodicals were to
be used.
AM

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Feb  2 18:24:48 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:24:48 -0500
Subject: disposable garbage bags
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e01ce01ee3b9aca00dfc62888.1ce01f9@chain.highlands.com>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.132448.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 I can't remember when these things first became a standard element of the
No. American lifestyle, but I clearly remember the feeling of shock --
outrage, really -- when I noticed that it was expected that people would
buy bags for the purpose of throwing them away.
Ah, such innocence!
A. Murie


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Feb  2 18:39:32 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 10:39:32 -0800
Subject: Horizontal bubbles
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.103932.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's a blend that was new to me and that I pass along for the list's
reading pleasure.  It's from an analysis by Todd S. Purdum of the New York
Times News Service, and it appeared in a front-page story in the 1/29/05
issue of The Oregonian (Portland, OR):

"Nearly two years after the U.S. invasion of Iraq, such comparisons are no
longer dismissed in mainstream political discourse as facile and flawed,
but are instead bubbling to the fore."

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Feb  2 20:19:17 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:19:17 -0500
Subject: disposable garbage bags
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.151917.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I recall municipal garbage collectors (1924) (aka garbagemen [1888]) using
large sheets of burlap upon which to dump garbage from galvanized garbage
pails (1906) (which I can remember cleaning) and their hefting them over
their should to schlep to the garbage truck (1916).  I don't remember ever
hearing the term garbage box (1867).

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Wednesday, February
02, 2005 at 1:24 PM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
>Subject:      Re: disposable garbage bags
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I can't remember when these things first became a standard element of the
>No. American lifestyle, but I clearly remember the feeling of shock --
>outrage, really -- when I noticed that it was expected that people would
>buy bags for the purpose of throwing them away.
>Ah, such innocence!
>A. Murie


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Feb  2 20:21:44 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:21:44 -0500
Subject: my mistake: garbage can (1906) not garbage pail
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.152144.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Wednesday, February
02, 2005 at 3:19 PM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
>Subject:      Re: disposable garbage bags
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I recall municipal garbage collectors (1924) (aka garbagemen [1888]) using
>large sheets of burlap upon which to dump garbage from galvanized garbage
>pails (1906) (which I can remember cleaning) and their hefting them over
>their should to schlep to the garbage truck (1916).  I don't remember ever
>hearing the term garbage box (1867).
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>barnhart at highlands.com
>
>American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Wednesday, February
>02, 2005 at 1:24 PM -0500 wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
>>Subject:      Re: disposable garbage bags
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I can't remember when these things first became a standard element of
>the
>>No. American lifestyle, but I clearly remember the feeling of shock --
>>outrage, really -- when I noticed that it was expected that people would
>>buy bags for the purpose of throwing them away.
>>Ah, such innocence!
>>A. Murie


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb  2 20:28:51 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 14:28:51 -0600
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.142851.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From the Sports Law Blog
http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2005/01/not-defamatory-evel-famous-darede
vil.html


"Famous daredevil Evel Knievel had his lawsuit against ESPN thrown out
by a federal appeals court yesterday. Knievel and his wife had sued ESPN
for defamation stemming from a caption to a picture posted on its
website (which has since been taken down). The picture, of Knievel and
his wife, had a caption that read: "Evel Knievel proves that you're
never too old to be a pimp."

This is of interest because the decision centered on the various slang
meanings of the word "pimp".  The court, whose decision is linked in the
above blog entry, determined that in this case, a non-literal meaning
should be inferred, based on the context and appearance of many other
slang terms; therefore it was not reasonable to assume or infer (as,
apparently Knievel and/or his attorneys did) that ESPN was saying that
Evel Knievel was in fact a pimp, and had turned out his wife.

The decision cites Lighter's HDAS.  Jon is now a part of legal history
(and may have been for some time, for all I know).


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Feb  2 20:45:58 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:45:58 -0500
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.154558.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Jon's been cited before, for (in chronological order) "goombah," "Boss of Bosses," "jack," "cap," "blood," "jack-off," "bull," "no-show," and, in the Knievel case, "kick it," "hardcore," and "hottie."

        If Jon or anyone else needs copies or cites, let me know, on-list or off-list as appropriate.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Mullins, Bill
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:29 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?


The decision cites Lighter's HDAS.  Jon is now a part of legal history
(and may have been for some time, for all I know).


From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Feb  2 20:50:54 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:50:54 -0500
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B48@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.155054.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 03:45:58PM -0500, Baker, John wrote:
>
>         Jon's been cited before, for (in chronological
> order) "goombah," "Boss of Bosses," "jack," "cap," "blood,"
> "jack-off," "bull," "no-show," and, in the Knievel case,
> "kick it," "hardcore," and "hottie."  If Jon or anyone else
> needs copies or cites, let me know, on-list or off-list as
> appropriate.

Since "Boss of Bosses" (and, for that matter, "capo di tutti
capi") does not appear in HDAS, I'm curious to know how Jon
was cited for this. Was HDAS cited to show its lack of entry
for this term?

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb  2 21:21:22 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:21:22 -0500
Subject: "Grass Roots"
In-Reply-To: <200501300826.j0U8Q8Ht026399@pantheon-po07.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.162122.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Michael Quinion, I believe, asked about this recently.  I searched
ProQuest Historical Newspapers/American Periodical Series, and the hits
there seem to start in July 1912, the same month as the OED's first use.
It does seem that the term started then in connection with the Roosevelt
"Bull Moose" candidacy for president.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Feb  2 21:20:48 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:20:48 -0800
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.132048.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is an interesting verdict. In our school district, guilt is determined by the hearer's perception (maybe not even the one to whom a comment is directed), not the intent of speaker.  So, "You're a dork!" is sexual harassment if anyone in earshot understands 'dork' to mean the male member.  Showing another definition, such as "fool, nerd, etc." in a dictionary is no defense. My question is whether a kid can take the school district to court after having been punished for sexual harrassment after saying "you're a dork', using the -I-meant-nerd-not-male-member-and-here-it, ie.nerd,-is-in- the-dictionary-defense.  Would our school district have to change its policy?
Fritz


>>> Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL 02/02/05 12:28PM >>>
>From the Sports Law Blog
http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2005/01/not-defamatory-evel-famous-darede
vil.html


"Famous daredevil Evel Knievel had his lawsuit against ESPN thrown out
by a federal appeals court yesterday. Knievel and his wife had sued ESPN
for defamation stemming from a caption to a picture posted on its
website (which has since been taken down). The picture, of Knievel and
his wife, had a caption that read: "Evel Knievel proves that you're
never too old to be a pimp."

This is of interest because the decision centered on the various slang
meanings of the word "pimp".  The court, whose decision is linked in the
above blog entry, determined that in this case, a non-literal meaning
should be inferred, based on the context and appearance of many other
slang terms; therefore it was not reasonable to assume or infer (as,
apparently Knievel and/or his attorneys did) that ESPN was saying that
Evel Knievel was in fact a pimp, and had turned out his wife.

The decision cites Lighter's HDAS.  Jon is now a part of legal history
(and may have been for some time, for all I know).


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Feb  2 21:27:21 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:27:21 -0500
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.162721.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        No, it apparently was from a textual discussion.  See the fourth paragraph below.

        <<The term "Boss of Bosses" does not appear in standard dictionaries. To the extent that it has a literal meaning, the term means something akin to "the supervisor of supervisors." The literal meaning of the term, then, is not defamatory.

        To people of ordinary intelligence, the term could have at least two other meanings. One, that of a "political boss," is not defamatory; the other, meaning "mob boss" or "Mafia don," could be defamatory. Thus, the question becomes whether the term "Boss of Bosses" fairly implies that Senator Lynch was the head of the Mafia. In concluding that the statement could not be so read, the Appellate Division reasoned that the statement was not subject to verification. Even if the statement were verifiable, we conclude that taken in context it would not be defamatory.

        The alleged facts in the advertisement--that Senator Lynch has been "a partner or officer in three mob-owned companies" and has "mobsters" as "business partners" and "clients"--suggest a connection to organized crime. These "facts," however, do not support the assertion that Senator Lynch is the "boss of bosses" of the Mafia.

        The "Boss of Bosses" appellation appeared in a paid advertisement during the course of a heated political campaign in which both sides engaged in mudslinging. We conclude that a reader of ordinary intelligence would not believe that Senator Lynch was the head of the leading crime family in New York. See Mob Speak Glossary in 1 Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang 29, 29-30 (J.E. Lighter ed., 1994) ("While no one proclaims himself the Boss of Bosses anymore, the press awards this title to whomever they feel is the boss of the strongest of the five Families of New York, who is also said to preside over Commission meetings."). Rather, the reader would understand the statement to be hyperbole and name-calling emanating from a rough-and-tumble political campaign.>>

        The citing case is Lynch v. New Jersey Education Association, 161 N.J. 152, 170 - 71, 735 A.2d 1129, 1138 - 39 (N.J. July 27, 1999).

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Jesse Sheidlower
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:51 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?


On Wed, Feb 02, 2005 at 03:45:58PM -0500, Baker, John wrote:
>
>         Jon's been cited before, for (in chronological
> order) "goombah," "Boss of Bosses," "jack," "cap," "blood,"
> "jack-off," "bull," "no-show," and, in the Knievel case,
> "kick it," "hardcore," and "hottie."  If Jon or anyone else
> needs copies or cites, let me know, on-list or off-list as
> appropriate.

Since "Boss of Bosses" (and, for that matter, "capo di tutti
capi") does not appear in HDAS, I'm curious to know how Jon
was cited for this. Was HDAS cited to show its lack of entry
for this term?

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Feb  2 21:41:00 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:41:00 -0500
Subject: my mistake: garbage can (1906) not garbage pail
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.164100.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thus far, garbage pail (1885) is far older than garbage can:

Put away the milk at once when it is served [delivered?].  In five
minutes, an authority says, milk that is left uncovered and standing near
any drain or on the bricks by a garbage pail will imbibe enough impurities
to make it spoiled for baby's use.
_The Standard_ [Albert Lea, Minn.] (NewspaperArchive.com), Aug. 12, 1885,
p 2

garbage wagon (1882):

The city garbage wagon has been discontinued, and hereafter those who have
been benefited by it will have to provide for themselves.
_Davenport [Iowa] Daily Gazette_ (NewspaperArchive.com), Nov. 16, 1882, p 7

Barnhart on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 at 3:21 PM -0500 wrote:
>American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Wednesday, February
>02, 2005 at 3:19 PM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
>Subject:      Re: disposable garbage bags
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I recall municipal garbage collectors (1924) (aka garbagemen [1888]) using
>large sheets of burlap upon which to dump garbage from galvanized garbage
>pails (1906) (which I can remember cleaning) and their hefting them over
>their should to schlep to the garbage truck (1916).  I don't remember ever
>hearing the term garbage box (1867).
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>barnhart at highlands.com
>
>American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Wednesday, February
>02, 2005 at 1:24 PM -0500 wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
>>Subject:      Re: disposable garbage bags
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I can't remember when these things first became a standard element of
>the
>>No. American lifestyle, but I clearly remember the feeling of shock --
>>outrage, really -- when I noticed that it was expected that people would
>>buy bags for the purpose of throwing them away.
>>Ah, such innocence!
>>A. Murie
>


From gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM  Wed Feb  2 21:41:56 2005
From: gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM (Benjamin Barrett)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 13:41:56 -0800
Subject: No Capital Letters in Canadian's Last Name
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.134156.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One more item to remember when spelling people's names...BB

> -----Original Message-----

> Globe and Mail, Canada, February 2, 2005
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC
> /20050202/COLUMBUS02/TPNational/TopStories
> The Knights and the lesbians: Exhibit A in same-sex uproar By
> MICHAEL VALPY

<snip>

> Ms. findlay, who does not use capital letters in the spelling
> of her name, said the religious freedom of the Roman Catholic
> Church to refuse to marry same-sex couples could not be
> equated to religious freedom for a lay organization of
> Catholics to refuse to rent premises for the celebration of a
> same-sex marriage
> -- not if the premises were generally offered to the public.

<snip>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Feb  2 21:50:29 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:50:29 -0500
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.165029.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Bear in mind that these are different areas of the law.  The Knievel case was about the law of defamation (slander/libel).  The hypothetical case against your school district would be based instead on the student's right to be free of arbitrary and capricious governmental process or on the student's right to free speech.

        The free speech claim isn't going to get far if the student was insulting another student at school, whether the student meant nerd or penis, so the student would have to proceed on the arbitrary governmental process theory.  Assuming that your school district's rules are clearly set out somewhere (e.g., what you describe would not be sexual harassment in the legal sense even if everyone understood "dork" to mean a penis, but the school certainly could proscribe that), then the student would essentially have to show that the school district's policy, as applied, was so unreasonable as to be unsustainable.  For example, if a teacher overheard a student call another one a nerd and the student were suspended because the teacher erroneously understood a nerd to be a penis, then the student might have a claim.

        This is not legal advice.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of FRITZ JUENGLING
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 4:21 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?


This is an interesting verdict. In our school district, guilt is determined by the hearer's perception (maybe not even the one to whom a comment is directed), not the intent of speaker.  So, "You're a dork!" is sexual harassment if anyone in earshot understands 'dork' to mean the male member.  Showing another definition, such as "fool, nerd, etc." in a dictionary is no defense. My question is whether a kid can take the school district to court after having been punished for sexual harrassment after saying "you're a dork', using the -I-meant-nerd-not-male-member-and-here-it, ie.nerd,-is-in- the-dictionary-defense.  Would our school district have to change its policy?
Fritz


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb  2 21:52:49 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 15:52:49 -0600
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.155249.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Also, for the purposes of discussing the hypothetical situation below,
Knievel is a public figure.  Therefore the standard for libel/slander is

much higher than that for a student.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Baker, John
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 3:50 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
>         Bear in mind that these are different areas of the
> law.  The Knievel case was about the law of defamation
> (slander/libel).  The hypothetical case against your school
> district would be based instead on the student's right to be
> free of arbitrary and capricious governmental process or on
> the student's right to free speech.
>
>         The free speech claim isn't going to get far if the
> student was insulting another student at school, whether the
> student meant nerd or penis, so the student would have to
> proceed on the arbitrary governmental process theory.
> Assuming that your school district's rules are clearly set
> out somewhere (e.g., what you describe would not be sexual
> harassment in the legal sense even if everyone understood
> "dork" to mean a penis, but the school certainly could
> proscribe that), then the student would essentially have to
> show that the school district's policy, as applied, was so
> unreasonable as to be unsustainable.  For example, if a
> teacher overheard a student call another one a nerd and the
> student were suspended because the teacher erroneously
> understood a nerd to be a penis, then the student might have a claim.
>
>         This is not legal advice.
>
> John Baker
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of FRITZ JUENGLING
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 4:21 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
>
>
> This is an interesting verdict. In our school district, guilt
> is determined by the hearer's perception (maybe not even the
> one to whom a comment is directed), not the intent of
> speaker.  So, "You're a dork!" is sexual harassment if anyone
> in earshot understands 'dork' to mean the male member.
> Showing another definition, such as "fool, nerd, etc." in a
> dictionary is no defense. My question is whether a kid can
> take the school district to court after having been punished
> for sexual harrassment after saying "you're a dork', using
> the -I-meant-nerd-not-male-member-and-here-it,
> ie.nerd,-is-in- the-dictionary-defense.  Would our school
> district have to change its policy?
> Fritz
>


From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Wed Feb  2 22:02:55 2005
From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:02:55 -0000
Subject: "Grass Roots"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502021619350.7256-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.220255.0000.>

> Michael Quinion, I believe, asked about this recently.  I searched
> ProQuest Historical Newspapers/American Periodical Series, and the
> hits there seem to start in July 1912, the same month as the OED's
> first use. It does seem that the term started then in connection with
> the Roosevelt "Bull Moose" candidacy for president.

Many thanks for the follow-up on this. One on newspaperarchive.com is
slightly earlier, though also linked to that Roosevelt campaign:

1912 Evening News (Ada, Oklahoma) 26 Jan. 4/5 "The Roosevelt
Sentiment, as cropping out at Coalgate, was but the forerunner, as it
was plain to him, he said, that the grass roots were for the ex-
president".

It seems likely that somebody connected to the campaign coined it,
probably from the existing expression "gold from the grass roots
down" for a rich gold strike.

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <wordseditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb  2 22:20:10 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:20:10 -0600
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.162010.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Add to the list:

bork
 44 UCLA L. Rev. 1185 (1996-1997) p. 1185. AND
 50 Drake L. Rev. 360 (2001-2002) Symposium Precis, A; Baker, Thomas E.


coffin nails
 38 Wm. & Mary L. Rev. 610 (1996-1997) Of Deaths Put on by Cunning and
Forced Cause: Reality Bites the Tobacco Industry; LeBel, Paul A.

horse (v), horseplay
 25 Cardozo L. Rev. 2203 (2004) TAKING ANOTHER RIDE ON FLOPPER: BENJAMIN
CARDOZO, SAFE SPACE, AND THE CULTURAL SIGNIFICANCE OF CONEY ISLAND
Robert N. Strassfeld

john
 4 Buff. Crim. L. Rev. 715 (2000-2001) Teaching Prostitution Seriously;
Balos, Beverly  AND
 74 N.Y.U. L. Rev. 1222 (1999) Matter of Prostitution: Becoming
Respectable, A; Balos, Beverly; Fellows, Mary Louise

nigger and related terms
 2001 U. Ill. L. Rev. 936 (2001) David C. Baum Lecture: Nigger as a
Problem in the Law, The; Kennedy, Randall L.




>         Jon's been cited before, for (in chronological order)
> "goombah," "Boss of Bosses," "jack," "cap," "blood,"
> "jack-off," "bull," "no-show," and, in the Knievel case,
> "kick it," "hardcore," and "hottie."
>
>


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Wed Feb  2 22:21:53 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 14:21:53 -0800
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.142153.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My question really is about the student who does intend to call someone 'penis' because nearly everyone uses 'dork' to mean 'nerd' or he does not know that there is another meaning to 'dork.'

>>> JMB at STRADLEY.COM 02/02/05 01:50PM >>>
        Bear in mind that these are different areas of the law.  The Knievel case was about the law of defamation (slander/libel).  The hypothetical case against your school district would be based instead on the student's right to be free of arbitrary and capricious governmental process or on the student's right to free speech.

        The free speech claim isn't going to get far if the student was insulting another student at school, whether the student meant nerd or penis, so the student would have to proceed on the arbitrary governmental process theory.  Assuming that your school district's rules are clearly set out somewhere (e.g., what you describe would not be sexual harassment in the legal sense even if everyone understood "dork" to mean a penis, but the school certainly could proscribe that), then the student would essentially have to show that the school district's policy, as applied, was so unreasonable as to be unsustainable.  For example, if a teacher overheard a student call another one a nerd and the student were suspended because the teacher erroneously understood a nerd to be a penis, then the student might have a claim.

        This is not legal advice.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of FRITZ JUENGLING
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 4:21 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?


This is an interesting verdict. In our school district, guilt is determined by the hearer's perception (maybe not even the one to whom a comment is directed), not the intent of speaker.  So, "You're a dork!" is sexual harassment if anyone in earshot understands 'dork' to mean the male member.  Showing another definition, such as "fool, nerd, etc." in a dictionary is no defense. My question is whether a kid can take the school district to court after having been punished for sexual harrassment after saying "you're a dork', using the -I-meant-nerd-not-male-member-and-here-it, ie.nerd,-is-in- the-dictionary-defense.  Would our school district have to change its policy?
Fritz


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Feb  2 22:35:16 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:35:16 -0500
Subject: California vowels
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.173516.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A follow-up to my "okay" query:
Today a grad student responded to something I said with [ok@]--with fairly
balanced stress on the two syllables in this case.  It might have even been
closer to [oka].  But he's from Cleveland!  Which makes me wonder if this
is a kind of "underground" young persons' adoption, spread from
wherever?  He's 24-ish, very hip, etc.  Has anyone else heard this?

------------------------
Here's a question:  I saw "Sideways" yesterday (so-so...) and noticed that
the buddy character played by Haden Church (or Church Haden?) said for Okay
[ok@] or possibly [okE].  Is this backing or laxing common in California
speech?  The presentation on Southern CA speech at ADS noted lowered and
backed /ae/ and /E/, but not this /e/ --> /E/ or /@/.  Might /e/ have gone
to /E/ first and then to /@/?  The guy also had fronted /o/ but I didn't
hear fronted /u/, though I may have missed it; the ADS speaker claimed
u-fronting is more common but admitted this is disputed.

These guys are supposed to be in San Diego, maybe LA, but only Church
seemed "native."  Any comments?


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Feb  2 22:29:01 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:29:01 -0500
Subject: "withdrawl" = withdraw
In-Reply-To: <p04320404be26a4671821@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.172901.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Cute.  Seriously, though--I have in fact heard a final dark /l/ on "draw"
many times (without linking to a vowel; the same occurs with "mamaw," a
regional word for grandmother).  And, in contrast, I've seen in student
writing the spelling "draw" meaning "drawl," as in "He speaks with a
draw"--where the dark /l/ is vocalized in speech and transported into
spelling as absent.  Both processes are common here in SE/Appalachian Ohio.

So I'm still suspicious about the origin of "withdrawal" as a verb.  It
seems to me it could have been generalized/reanalyzed on the basis of
pronunciation.

At 10:41 AM 2/2/2005, you wrote:
>At 7:08 AM -0800 2/2/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>  >From a customer review at Amazon.com:
>>
>>"In 1954, the French had to withdrawl and the Genevea accords were
>>signed. This called for Ho Chi Minh and his group to withdrawl to
>>the North of the country and the French puppet Bao Dai's government
>>to be in control of the South."
>Yes, and the Vietnam analogy is apropos, since the term goes back to
>our own Civil War/War Between the States/War of Northern Aggression,
>when Yankee soldiers noticed the funny way the Rebels spoke--"with
>drawl"--as they were retreating under heavy fire from outposts
>previously held.
>
>Larry


From slangman at PACBELL.NET  Thu Feb  3 00:16:16 2005
From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 16:16:16 -0800
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.161616.0800.>

Although not mentioned in the Ninth Circuit's decision, Connie Eble and
I both were retained by ESPN as expert witnesses and prepared reports
discussing at length the modern use of the term 'pimp' as being
something other than a procurer of prostitutes.

Tom Dalzell



Mullins, Bill wrote:

>>>From the Sports Law Blog
>http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2005/01/not-defamatory-evel-famous-darede
>vil.html
>
>
>"Famous daredevil Evel Knievel had his lawsuit against ESPN thrown out
>by a federal appeals court yesterday. Knievel and his wife had sued ESPN
>for defamation stemming from a caption to a picture posted on its
>website (which has since been taken down). The picture, of Knievel and
>his wife, had a caption that read: "Evel Knievel proves that you're
>never too old to be a pimp."
>
>This is of interest because the decision centered on the various slang
>meanings of the word "pimp".  The court, whose decision is linked in the
>above blog entry, determined that in this case, a non-literal meaning
>should be inferred, based on the context and appearance of many other
>slang terms; therefore it was not reasonable to assume or infer (as,
>apparently Knievel and/or his attorneys did) that ESPN was saying that
>Evel Knievel was in fact a pimp, and had turned out his wife.
>
>The decision cites Lighter's HDAS.  Jon is now a part of legal history
>(and may have been for some time, for all I know).
>
>
>


From pds at VISI.COM  Thu Feb  3 00:35:36 2005
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:35:36 -0600
Subject: Burma-Shave
In-Reply-To: <20050202130408.1D5B252C5@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.183536.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2/2/2005 08:04 AM -0500, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>Is anyone able to suggest to me the one or two most famous Burma-Shave
>jingles?

Who knows from most famous?  My favorite

Ben met Anna
Made a hit
Neglected beard
Ben Anna split
Burma Shave

My dad, Frank's, favorite

He lit a match
To check the gas tank
That's why they call him
Skinless Frank
Burma Shave


   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
           http://www.visi.com/~pds


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 01:51:02 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:51:02 -0800
Subject: my mistake: garbage can (1906) not garbage pail
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.175102.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My 1880s vintage grandparents always used "garbage pail." I use "trash can" or "garbage can."

JL



Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Barnhart
Subject: Re: my mistake: garbage can (1906) not garbage pail
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thus far, garbage pail (1885) is far older than garbage can:

Put away the milk at once when it is served [delivered?]. In five
minutes, an authority says, milk that is left uncovered and standing near
any drain or on the bricks by a garbage pail will imbibe enough impurities
to make it spoiled for baby's use.
_The Standard_ [Albert Lea, Minn.] (NewspaperArchive.com), Aug. 12, 1885,
p 2

garbage wagon (1882):

The city garbage wagon has been discontinued, and hereafter those who have
been benefited by it will have to provide for themselves.
_Davenport [Iowa] Daily Gazette_ (NewspaperArchive.com), Nov. 16, 1882, p 7

Barnhart on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 at 3:21 PM -0500 wrote:
>American Dialect Society on Wednesday, February
>02, 2005 at 3:19 PM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Barnhart
>Subject: Re: disposable garbage bags
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I recall municipal garbage collectors (1924) (aka garbagemen [1888]) using
>large sheets of burlap upon which to dump garbage from galvanized garbage
>pails (1906) (which I can remember cleaning) and their hefting them over
>their should to schlep to the garbage truck (1916). I don't remember ever
>hearing the term garbage box (1867).
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>barnhart at highlands.com
>
>American Dialect Society on Wednesday, February
>02, 2005 at 1:24 PM -0500 wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: sagehen
>>Subject: Re: disposable garbage bags
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I can't remember when these things first became a standard element of
>the
>>No. American lifestyle, but I clearly remember the feeling of shock --
>>outrage, really -- when I noticed that it was expected that people would
>>buy bags for the purpose of throwing them away.
>>Ah, such innocence!
>>A. Murie
>

__________________________________________________
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 01:52:20 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:52:20 -0800
Subject: No Capital Letters in Canadian's Last Name
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.175220.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is e. e. cummings and bell hooks, who go one step farther.

JL

Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Barrett
Subject: No Capital Letters in Canadian's Last Name
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One more item to remember when spelling people's names...BB

> -----Original Message-----

> Globe and Mail, Canada, February 2, 2005
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC
> /20050202/COLUMBUS02/TPNational/TopStories
> The Knights and the lesbians: Exhibit A in same-sex uproar By
> MICHAEL VALPY



> Ms. findlay, who does not use capital letters in the spelling
> of her name, said the religious freedom of the Roman Catholic
> Church to refuse to marry same-sex couples could not be
> equated to religious freedom for a lay organization of
> Catholics to refuse to rent premises for the celebration of a
> same-sex marriage
> -- not if the premises were generally offered to the public.




---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 01:53:26 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 17:53:26 -0800
Subject: No Capital Letters in Canadian's Last Name
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.175326.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"There are" is correct.

JL

Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Jonathan Lighter
Subject: Re: No Capital Letters in Canadian's Last Name
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is e. e. cummings and bell hooks, who go one step farther.

JL

Benjamin Barrett wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Benjamin Barrett
Subject: No Capital Letters in Canadian's Last Name
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One more item to remember when spelling people's names...BB

> -----Original Message-----

> Globe and Mail, Canada, February 2, 2005
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC
> /20050202/COLUMBUS02/TPNational/TopStories
> The Knights and the lesbians: Exhibit A in same-sex uproar By
> MICHAEL VALPY



> Ms. findlay, who does not use capital letters in the spelling
> of her name, said the religious freedom of the Roman Catholic
> Church to refuse to marry same-sex couples could not be
> equated to religious freedom for a lay organization of
> Catholics to refuse to rent premises for the celebration of a
> same-sex marriage
> -- not if the premises were generally offered to the public.




---------------------------------
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From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Thu Feb  3 02:24:40 2005
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 21:24:40 -0500
Subject: my mistake: garbage can (1906) not garbage pail
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.212440.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM> wrote:
>Thus far, garbage pail (1885) is far older than garbage can:
>
>Put away the milk at once when it is served [delivered?]. In five
>minutes, an authority says, milk that is left uncovered and standing near
>any drain or on the bricks by a garbage pail will imbibe enough impurities
>to make it spoiled for baby's use.
>_The Standard_ [Albert Lea, Minn.] (NewspaperArchive.com), Aug. 12, 1885,
>p 2
>
>garbage wagon (1882):
>
>The city garbage wagon has been discontinued, and hereafter those who have
>been benefited by it will have to provide for themselves.
>_Davenport [Iowa] Daily Gazette_ (NewspaperArchive.com), Nov. 16, 1882, p 7
>

I remember that some US cities had in-ground receptacles for garbage pails,
which were set in sidewalks (e.g. 'on the bricks' etc.) and had
foot-operated covers.  Home food garbage (not trash) was set in pails in
these containers, and emptied by the city garbage collectors on a schedule.
I assume the garbage was fed to pigs in some places...
This system was used in my father's hometown, Lynn, MA, into the 1960s, I
believe.

Michael McKernan


From dave at WILTON.NET  Thu Feb  3 02:49:04 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 18:49:04 -0800
Subject: Airborne as verb
In-Reply-To: <20050203015326.93861.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.184904.0800.>

>From an AP story on 2 Feb 2005, "Plane Skids Off Runway, Crashes in N.J." by
WAYNE PARRY:

"'He said as they tried to airborne before five minutes past (7 a.m.), they
just lost control and they couldn't airborne the plane. They went straight
through, 100 miles per hour,' [Witness Robert] Sosa said."

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Thu Feb  3 02:50:26 2005
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 20:50:26 -0600
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.205026.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Central Illinois, mid 50s

(to the tune of Battle Hymn of the Republic)


Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord
He was coming round the corner in a 1918 Ford.
He had one hand on the throttle and the other on a bottle
Of Pabst Blue Ribbon

Glory Glory what's it to ya
Teacher hit me with a ruler
I hit her in the bean with a rotten tangerine
As we go marching on

Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb  3 04:01:45 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:01:45 -0500
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
In-Reply-To: <E1CwR7Q-0005ym-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.230145.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 2, 2005, at 3:28 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject:      Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> From the Sports Law Blog
> http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2005/01/not-defamatory-evel-famous-
> darede
> vil.html
>
>
> "Famous daredevil Evel Knievel had his lawsuit against ESPN thrown out
> by a federal appeals court yesterday. Knievel and his wife had sued
> ESPN
> for defamation stemming from a caption to a picture posted on its
> website (which has since been taken down). The picture, of Knievel and
> his wife, had a caption that read: "Evel Knievel proves that you're
> never too old to be a pimp."
>
> This is of interest because the decision centered on the various slang
> meanings of the word

> ... the various slang meanings of the word "pimp"

FWIW, as I found out while chatting with my 15yo niece, for a lot of
today's younger people, "pimp" has only slang meanings and no literal
meaning. My niece was shocked! shocked! when I explained that literal
meaning to her. I wasn't shocked, but I was taken somewhat aback that
she had not the least idea of the primary meaning of "pimp."

  Back in my day, of course, as far as I can recall, the only slang term
was "pimpmobile" and I coined that one myself. Yes, really! I wouldn't
be surprised to discover that many others have also coined this term,
independently of me. But I really am the first person that I know of to
use this term. It was in May of 1963.

-Wilson Gray

> .  The court, whose decision is linked in the
> above blog entry, determined that in this case, a non-literal meaning
> should be inferred, based on the context and appearance of many other
> slang terms; therefore it was not reasonable to assume or infer (as,
> apparently Knievel and/or his attorneys did) that ESPN was saying that
> Evel Knievel was in fact a pimp, and had turned out his wife.
>
> The decision cites Lighter's HDAS.  Jon is now a part of legal history
> (and may have been for some time, for all I know).
>


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Thu Feb  3 04:01:53 2005
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 22:01:53 -0600
Subject: Children's chant
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.220153.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

2nd try to get it right.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Hause" <dwhause at JOBE.NET>

Central Illinois, mid 50s

(to the tune of Battle Hymn of the Republic)


Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord
He was coming round the corner in a 1918 Ford.
He had one hand on the throttle and the other on a bottle
Of Pabst Blue Ribbon Beer

Glory Glory what's it to ya
Teacher hit me with a ruler
I hit her in the bean with a rotten tangerine
As we go marching on

Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb  3 04:27:04 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:27:04 -0500
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <3o32l3$7484n0@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.232704.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When I was a teenager in the 'Fifties in St. Louis,
"dittybop(p)er"/diddybop(per)" was a fairly mild insult that meant
something like "wannabe hipster." There was no verb form.

Unfortunately, when I was in The War, I didn't have occasion to come
into contact with any Morse-code operators. More useless information:
when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it sounds like Morse code to
the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the equipment available in the
late '50's.

-Wilson Gray


On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Have discovered that besides their tedious old meanings, so familiar
> that I needn't bore you with them, these words have been used in the
> military with the senses "high-speed Morse operator" and "high-speed
> Morse receiver/transmitter."  To "dittybop" also means "to transmit
> Morse code at high speed."
>
> Can any of my distinguished colleagues and consultants add anything to
> the above from personal experience ?
>
> JL
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb  3 04:59:12 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:59:12 -0500
Subject: Cuckoo's nest; "Monkey, Monkey,
 bottle of beer" (1892); "Sin to steal a pin" (1840, 1857)
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.235912.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Quickly, before NYU closes at midnight.
 ?  ?
 ?  ?
THE VILLAGE FLORIST.
MRS. HOFLAND. Parley's Magazine (1833-1844). New York: Oct 1840. Vol. 8; p. 306 (9 pages)
Pg. 310:
...and it so happened that I sung what I learnt that morning--
"It is a sin to steal a pin,
Much more to steal a greater thing."
 ?
 ?
Article 1 -- No Title
The Genesee Farmer (1845-1865). Rochester: Sep 1856. Vol. 17, Iss. 9; p. 291 (2 pages)
First page:
"It is a sin to steal a pin," &c.
 ?  ?
 ?
THINGS WISE AND OTHERWISE. ?  ? Harper's Weekly , 12/5/1857
Old Gent.
Volume: 1857 ?  Issue: 12/05 ?  Page Range: 0782d-0783a
THE CLOCK.

A mechanic his labor will often discard,
If the rate of his pay he dislikes;
But a clock???and its case is uncommonly hard???
Will continue to work though it strikes.
Old Mrs. Darnley is a pattern of household economy.
She says she has made a pair of socks last fifteen years
by only knitting new feet to them every winter and new
legs to them every other winter.A political paper, speaking of an opponent, says: ???Our
quondam friend reminds us of the valorous chap in the
war of 1812, who mistook a heavy wind for the approach
of the British, as he lay in bed one night. Shaking with
the fear of imaginary danger, he woke his wife, and ex-
claimed, `Snug up to my back, Betsy! let's meet the in-
imy manfully!'???The world is for the working hour; but home is the
place of refuge. We come to it when we are weary or
weak; our refreshment is there, our rest is there, we re-
flect there, we recover from sickness there, and when we
die in peace, we die there.Campbell, the poet, when speaking of the spring, says:
???The Queen of the spring, as she passed down the vale,
Left her robe on the trees, and her breath on the gale.???In a log school-house in Wiscousin, placed conspicu-
ously upon the wall, may be seen the following poetic
version of the eighth commandment:
???It is a sin to steal a pin???
It is a greater to steal a tater.???
 ?
 ?  ?
THE WORLD OF ART: Paintings and Prints in Summer Exhibitions
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 22, 1923. p. BR16 (2 pages)
Second page:
You yourself are moved to incantation, the ancient chant of the nursery game--played upon small interested minors(Recheck--ed.): "Here is the Church and here is the Steeple: Open the Door an see all the People."
 ?  ?
 ?
 ?  Anaconda Standard ? Sunday, February 23, 1902 Anaconda, Montana ?  ?
...shall I settle on? MONKEY, MONKEY, a BOTTLE OF BEER. How many nice ones are.....OF the strength OF their position AND OF much OF -their product, are above..
 ?  ?  ?
 ?
DECIDEDLY CLEVER.; A Parrot That Could Speak Two Hundred Words.
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Feb 11, 1892. p. 6 (1 page):
Here are some of the things thatthe bird said which the reporter had time ti catch: "Monkey, monkey, bottle of beer, how many monkeys are there here?"...
 ?
 ?
Playground Democracy.; Comnaner
Current Literature (1888-1912). New York: Oct 1901. Vol. VOL. XXXI.,, Iss. No. 4; p. 432 (2 pages)
Seonc page:
Wire, briar, limber, lock,'Three geese in a flock;
One flew east, one flew west,
One flew over the cuckoo's nest.
(...)
Monkey, monkey, bottle of beer,
How many monkeys have we here?
One, two three,
Out goes he.


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Thu Feb  3 05:37:18 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:37:18 -0600
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.233718.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sports radio host Jim Rome bills himself as the 
"pimp-in-the-box".  MTV verbs "pimp" in the show
titled "Pimp my Ride" (in other words, "trick out 
my car").



-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray
Sent: Wed 2/2/2005 10:01 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
 

FWIW, as I found out while chatting with my 15yo niece, for a lot of
today's younger people, "pimp" has only slang meanings and no literal
meaning. My niece was shocked! shocked! when I explained that literal
meaning to her. 


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Thu Feb  3 05:54:24 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:54:24 -0600
Subject: "Have  XXX Will Travel"
Message-ID: <WED.2.FEB.2005.235424.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The science fiction author Robert Heinlein had a novel
titled "Have Spacesuit Will Travel".  A recent commentary
on his works (Robert A. Heinlein, A Reader's Companion by
James Gifford, Nitrosyncretic Press) points out that it
almost certainly was derived from the TV show "Have Gun
Will Travel" (which I knew), but that an earlier version
was the vaudeville phrase, "Have Tux, Will Travel" (which 
I didn't know).

My PQ Historical Newspapers search on this phrase yielded
1951 for a first cite, which sure seems late for a "vaudeville"
phrase.

>From www.etymonline.com :
"Phrase have (noun), will (verb) is from 1954, originally 
from comedian Bob Hope, in the form Have tux, will travel; 
Hope described it as typical of vaudevillians' ads in 
"Variety," indicating a willingness to perform anywhere, any time."
Hope wrote a book titled "Have Tux, Will Travel"

Is the root of this phrase, "have (noun) will (verb)" older than
the 1950's??


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb  3 07:28:42 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 02:28:42 -0500
Subject: Nothing to declare; Rotten tangerine (1959); Taste & Try (1882);
 Bread & Butter (1886)
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.022842.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NOTHING TO DECLARE

OSCAR WILDE DISCOVERS AMERICA (1882)
by Lloyd Lewis and Henry Justin SMith
New York: Harcourt Brace and COmpany
1936

Pg. 31, Book Two, Chapter One, "NOTHING TO DECLARE BUT MY GENIUS"

Pg. 35: The sip at length was at the dock. Wilde and Morse came to the customs' inspector, behind whom massed a crowd watching Oscar. "It appears," wrote he to Sarah Bernhardt a little later, "that some of the numerous imaginative ones who are at work to make me famous had spread the story that I slept in gorgeous lace nightgowns."

His luggage was opened. No lace nightgowns appeared.

"Have you anything to declare?" asked the blue-clad inspector.

"Nothing," said Oscar; "nothing but my genius."

("Arrival of Oscar Wilde" in in the New York Tribune, 3 January 1882, pg. 5, col. 4, but I didn't see anything--ed.)

--------------------------------------------------------------
EAGLE'S/CUCKOO'S NEST; "BREAD AND BUTTER, COME TO SUPPER"

See the "cuckoo's nest" (1885) in the ADS-L archives. "Monkey, monkey, barrel of beer" (not "bottle of beer") is in the same post.

FOLK-LORE FROM ADAMS COUNTY ILLINOIS has "bread and butter, come to supper" on page 632, and "Hot boiled beans and very good butter, Ladies and gentlemen come to supper" on page 634.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
Parlor Amusements.; THE BLIND MAN'S WAND. MAGIC MUSIC.
Arthur's Home Magazine (1861-1870). Philadelphia: Jul 1862. Vol. 20; p. 60 (1 page):
Hot boil'd beans, and very good butter;
Won't you please to come to supper?

GAMES.; PRISONER'S BARS. THE KANGAROO. HOT BROAD BEANS. FLY AWAY.
Godey's Lady's Book and Magazine (1854-1882). New York: Jul 1880. Vol. 101, Iss. 601; p. 101 (1 page):
HOT BROAD BEANS.

This is a game of hide and seek, wherein one player hides some small thing about the room, the others of course hiding their eyes. When the hider is ready for them to seek it, she calls out: "Hot broad beans and very good butter; ladies and gentlemen, come to supper"--upon which they all begin to search. WHen they are near the place where it is, the hider calls out: "You are getting hot!" If they are far away she say: "You are cold!" The one who finds it take the turn to hide.

"THE LAND OF THE SKY;" OR, ADVENTURES IN MOUNTAIN BY-WAYS.
BY CHRISTIAN REID.. Appletons' Journal of Literature, Science and Art (1869-1876). New York: Sep 25, 1875. Vol. VOL. XIV., Iss. No. 340.; p. 385 (4 pages):
Pg. 387:
"It reminds me of the old nursery game--'One flew east, and one flew west, and one flew over the eagle's nest.'"


CAROLS AND CHILD-LORE AT THE CAPITAL.
W H Babcock. Lippincott's Monthly Magazine (1886-1915). Philadelphia: Sep 1886. Vol. 38; p. 320 (23 pages)
Various pages:

One to the east, one to the west,
One goes to the cuckoo's nest.
(...)
Hot bread and butter,
Please come to supper.
(...)
Star, star that shines so bright,
The first star I've seen to-night.
I hope I wish, I hope I may,
I hope my wish may come true
To-morrow night.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Old Songs and New, Adapted and Made by Aunt Anna
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Nov 23, 1919. p. D10 (1 page):
Bread and butter,
Come to supper?
Oh--dear--no!
That is what
They gave to children
Long--time--ago--


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Ironwood Daily Globe  Wednesday, February 10, 1926 Ironwood, Michigan
...RESULTS SALLY ANN "BREAD AND BUTTER COME TO SUPPER" piled The SUPPER call.....AND rosy. Say TO them every clay "BREAD is your Best Food Eat more o it..

--------------------------------------------------------------
"TASTE AND TRY BEFORE YOU BUY"

"Taste and try before you buy" is in FOLK-LORE FROM ADAMS COUNTY ILLINOIS, pg. 641.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Chester Times  Tuesday, May 02, 1882 Chester, Pennsylvania
...Convention is now in order. TASTE AND TRY, before you BUY. WE desire to give.....corner 01 Tiiird AND Market streets, AND delivered in Chester AND vicinity..

   Chester Times  Thursday, April 12, 1883 Chester, Pennsylvania
...with tho CHESTER TIMKS. TASTE AND TRY, before you BUY. boll -will soon.....the other night, was in such bad TASTE that President Broomali called him..

   Chester Times  Tuesday, June 16, 1885 Chester, Pennsylvania
...next to please the people. TASTE AND TRY before you BUY, by worrying the life.....is the summer book? Ask a bookseller. TRY his skill with his plenteous store..

--------------------------------------------------------------
"...ON THE BEAN WITH A ROTTEN TANGERINE..."

(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Herald  Thursday, February 05, 1959 Chicago, Illinois
...glory TeAcher HIT ME WITH A RULER. I HIT her on the beAn WITH A rcUcn.....ClAsses Older brother HorAce surprises ME by beAting the tiME but then he's..
Pg. ?, col. 2:
"Glory, glory hallelujah!
Teacher hit me with a ruler.
I hit her on the bean
With a rotten tangerine
And we ain't gonna see her no more."

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
YOUNG READERS
The Washington Post (1974-Current file). Washington, D.C.: Jun 8, 1980. p. PAGE12 (1 page):
_The Silly Song Book, compiled by Charles Keller;...
Remember this variation on the refrain of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"? "Glory, glory how peculiar. Teacher hit me with a ruler, cause I bopped her on the bean with a rotten tangerine, And the juice came running down." Other favorites include "Do Your Ears Hang Low?" and that classic with the lyric, "Be kind to your web-footed friend, for that duck may be somebody's brother," sung to the tune of _Stars and Stripes Forever_.

(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Daily Intelligencer  Monday, November 22, 1982 Doylestown, Pennsylvania
...ruler and In turn being beaned with a ROTTEN TANGERINE. Another bit of..
Pg. 20, col. 3:
Remember that little ditty about "I hate Bosco. Bosco's bad for me. Mommy put it in my milk to try and poison me. I fooled Mommy. I put it in her tea, and now there is no mommy to try and poison me."
(...)
There are other songs in this category equally memorable such as the one sung to the tune of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic," whose lyrics contain reference to a teacher hitting a student with a ruler and in turn being beaned with a rotten tangerine.

--------------------------------------------------------------
HAVE TUX, WILL TRAVEL

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Have tux, will travel;
Bob Hope's own story, as told to Pete Martin.
Author: Hope, Bob, 1903-; Martin, Pete,
Publication: New York, Simon and Schuster, 1954
Document: English : Book

--------------------------------------------------------------
JUDAS PRIEST

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=467712

I previously found "Judas Priest" from the 1880s. This was recently asked on Google Answers (link above), and an old OED citation was provided. The Google Answers people will get $2 for a bad answer. That will probably be two dollars more than I make this entire year.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Saturday Herald  Saturday, November 24, 1883 Decatur, Illinois
...turned away with the laconic remark, "JUDAS PRIEST, how high we No one.....tbe presence of no clergyman or PRIEST, but making an agreement to live..

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
INSPECTING A VIADUCT.; A PARTY OF WILL-KNOWN NEW-YORKERS TAKE A LITTLE PLEASURE TRIP.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 17, 1883. p. 1 (1 page):
"Judas Priest! how high we are!"


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb  3 14:38:47 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 09:38:47 -0500
Subject: "Have  XXX Will Travel"
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1D3DED@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.093847.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:54 PM -0600 2/2/05, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>The science fiction author Robert Heinlein had a novel
>titled "Have Spacesuit Will Travel".  A recent commentary
>on his works (Robert A. Heinlein, A Reader's Companion by
>James Gifford, Nitrosyncretic Press) points out that it
>almost certainly was derived from the TV show "Have Gun
>Will Travel" (which I knew), but that an earlier version
>was the vaudeville phrase, "Have Tux, Will Travel" (which
>I didn't know).
>
>My PQ Historical Newspapers search on this phrase yielded
>1951 for a first cite, which sure seems late for a "vaudeville"
>phrase.
>
>>>From www.etymonline.com :
>"Phrase have (noun), will (verb) is from 1954, originally
>from comedian Bob Hope, in the form Have tux, will travel;
>Hope described it as typical of vaudevillians' ads in
>"Variety," indicating a willingness to perform anywhere, any time."
>Hope wrote a book titled "Have Tux, Will Travel"
>
>Is the root of this phrase, "have (noun) will (verb)" older than
>the 1950's??

I can confirm that for many of those in the relevant generation, it
was indeed Bob Hope's book title in the mid-1950s that introduced us
to the "Have Tux, Will Travel" formula, with precisely the meaning
indicated, and that "Have Gun Will Travel" (still remember "Paladin"
and that chess-knight logo) was recognized as a variation on that
theme.  Only a few years elapsed between the appearance of the Hope
book and the TV show. How long the expression was in circulation in
the vaudeville (or, more generally, show biz) world before Hope used
it for his autobiography I have no idea.

larry


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 14:38:55 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 06:38:55 -0800
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.063855.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Wilson. The military sense must be fairly obscure, since I just discovered it and it seems to go back to the '50s among Morse operators.  Pretty expressive, though.

As for "pimpmobile," it seems to have taken a full decade for your creation to have reached the print media.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When I was a teenager in the 'Fifties in St. Louis,
"dittybop(p)er"/diddybop(per)" was a fairly mild insult that meant
something like "wannabe hipster." There was no verb form.

Unfortunately, when I was in The War, I didn't have occasion to come
into contact with any Morse-code operators. More useless information:
when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it sounds like Morse code to
the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the equipment available in the
late '50's.

-Wilson Gray


On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Have discovered that besides their tedious old meanings, so familiar
> that I needn't bore you with them, these words have been used in the
> military with the senses "high-speed Morse operator" and "high-speed
> Morse receiver/transmitter." To "dittybop" also means "to transmit
> Morse code at high speed."
>
> Can any of my distinguished colleagues and consultants add anything to
> the above from personal experience ?
>
> JL
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

__________________________________________________
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http://mail.yahoo.com


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Feb  3 14:42:35 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 09:42:35 -0500
Subject: No Capital Letters in Canadian's Last Name
In-Reply-To: <20050203015220.34409.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.094235.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 2, 2005, at 20:52, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> There is e. e. cummings and bell hooks, who go one step farther.

The folks at Language Log pointed this out recently:

http://www.gvsu.edu/english/cummings/caps.htm

It seems to indicate "E.E. Cummings" was the preferred form.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 14:43:26 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 06:43:26 -0800
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.064326.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Have recently completed editing of "pimp" for HDAS III.  Its current popularity as a term of praise among the nation's youth seems to have begun no later than 1996.

JL

"Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sports radio host Jim Rome bills himself as the=20
"pimp-in-the-box". MTV verbs "pimp" in the show
titled "Pimp my Ride" (in other words, "trick out=20
my car").



-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Wilson Gray
Sent: Wed 2/2/2005 10:01 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
=20

FWIW, as I found out while chatting with my 15yo niece, for a lot of
today's younger people, "pimp" has only slang meanings and no literal
meaning. My niece was shocked! shocked! when I explained that literal
meaning to her.=20


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Thu Feb  3 15:11:53 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 10:11:53 -0500
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.101153.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        There is indirect evidence that its use in the music world is older than that.  The Supersonic Soul Pimps were around no later than 1994, and Pimp Daddy was performing by 1993.  Their decision to use "pimp" in their stage names suggests that they saw it as at least potentially a term of praise.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Jonathan Lighter
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:43 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?


Have recently completed editing of "pimp" for HDAS III.  Its current popularity as a term of praise among the nation's youth seems to have begun no later than 1996.

JL


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Feb  3 15:47:52 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 07:47:52 -0800
Subject: "Have  XXX Will Travel"
In-Reply-To: <p04320401be27e5fa3866@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.074752.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 3, 2005, at 6:38 AM, Larry Horn wrote:

> I can confirm that for many of those in the relevant generation, it
> was indeed Bob Hope's book title in the mid-1950s that introduced us
> to the "Have Tux, Will Travel" formula...

on Language Log on 4/25/04, Mark Liberman noted huge numbers of
versions of this snowclone, but took it back only to tv's Paladin and
not earlier than that to Bob Hope:

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000818.html

> with precisely the meaning
> indicated, and that "Have Gun Will Travel" (still remember "Paladin"
> and that chess-knight logo) was recognized as a variation on that
> theme.  Only a few years elapsed between the appearance of the Hope
> book and the TV show. How long the expression was in circulation in
> the vaudeville (or, more generally, show biz) world before Hope used
> it for his autobiography I have no idea.

arnold


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb  3 16:01:41 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 11:01:41 -0500
Subject: "Have  XXX Will Travel"
In-Reply-To: <F666CC56-75FA-11D9-B501-000A958A3606@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.110141.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:47 AM -0800 2/3/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>On Feb 3, 2005, at 6:38 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
>
>>I can confirm that for many of those in the relevant generation, it
>>was indeed Bob Hope's book title in the mid-1950s that introduced us
>>to the "Have Tux, Will Travel" formula...
>
>on Language Log on 4/25/04, Mark Liberman noted huge numbers of
>versions of this snowclone, but took it back only to tv's Paladin and
>not earlier than that to Bob Hope:
>
>http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000818.html
>

Ah, how quickly we forget.  Granted, Paladin/Richard Boone may have a
worthier icon than Bob Hope (I always preferred HGWT to the more
popular Gunsmoke myself), but the "HTWT" slogan was definitely the
model for the template, even for those of us (like me) who never read
the eponymous autobio.

L


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 16:35:47 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 08:35:47 -0800
Subject: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.083547.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, John, but "potentially" is the key word here.  Or they might simply have wanted to be outrageous.  Hundoubtedly their existenec helped promote the word (which is an adj. as well as a noun).

JL

"Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Baker, John"
Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is indirect evidence that its use in the music world is older than that. The Supersonic Soul Pimps were around no later than 1994, and Pimp Daddy was performing by 1993. Their decision to use "pimp" in their stage names suggests that they saw it as at least potentially a term of praise.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Jonathan Lighter
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:43 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Is Evel Knievel a Pimp?


Have recently completed editing of "pimp" for HDAS III. Its current popularity as a term of praise among the nation's youth seems to have begun no later than 1996.

JL


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 16:39:55 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 08:39:55 -0800
Subject: "Have  XXX Will Travel"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.083955.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Paladin - the Keats-quotin' gunslinger and real popular in his day. Why don't they rerun this series? Too brainy for today's America?

JL

Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: "Have XXX Will Travel"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 7:47 AM -0800 2/3/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>On Feb 3, 2005, at 6:38 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
>
>>I can confirm that for many of those in the relevant generation, it
>>was indeed Bob Hope's book title in the mid-1950s that introduced us
>>to the "Have Tux, Will Travel" formula...
>
>on Language Log on 4/25/04, Mark Liberman noted huge numbers of
>versions of this snowclone, but took it back only to tv's Paladin and
>not earlier than that to Bob Hope:
>
>http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000818.html
>

Ah, how quickly we forget. Granted, Paladin/Richard Boone may have a
worthier icon than Bob Hope (I always preferred HGWT to the more
popular Gunsmoke myself), but the "HTWT" slogan was definitely the
model for the template, even for those of us (like me) who never read
the eponymous autobio.

L


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo!


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 16:37:58 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 08:37:58 -0800
Subject: "Have  XXX Will Travel"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.083758.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Admittedly I  heard this long after 1954, and long after Paladin, but the "vaudeville" version I'm familiar with from the 1970s is "Have Trunk, Will Travel."  Worth checking.

JL

"Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky"
Subject: Re: "Have XXX Will Travel"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 3, 2005, at 6:38 AM, Larry Horn wrote:

> I can confirm that for many of those in the relevant generation, it
> was indeed Bob Hope's book title in the mid-1950s that introduced us
> to the "Have Tux, Will Travel" formula...

on Language Log on 4/25/04, Mark Liberman noted huge numbers of
versions of this snowclone, but took it back only to tv's Paladin and
not earlier than that to Bob Hope:

http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/000818.html

> with precisely the meaning
> indicated, and that "Have Gun Will Travel" (still remember "Paladin"
> and that chess-knight logo) was recognized as a variation on that
> theme. Only a few years elapsed between the appearance of the Hope
> book and the TV show. How long the expression was in circulation in
> the vaudeville (or, more generally, show biz) world before Hope used
> it for his autobiography I have no idea.

arnold


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Feb  3 17:34:44 2005
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:34:44 EST
Subject: Burma Shave
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.123444.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>  2 books that are to be found in better libraries everywhere:
>  he Verse by the Side of the Road: The Story of the Burma-Shave Signs
>  and Jingles, by Frank Rowsome, Jr., in print from Penguin for $12.95
>  Burma-Shave: The Rhymes, the Signs, the Times, by Bill Vossler, in
>  print from North Star Press of St. Cloud for $14.95

I have the Rowsome book---unfortunately I can't find it at the moment.  It
includes what is claimed to be a list of all Burma Shave jingles.

Two contributions Burma-Shave made to the American language:

"A town so small that it fit between two Burma-Shave signs"  (I heard this
one in the 1959-60 school year, in reference to Versailles, Kentucky (/v at r
'seilz/), the home of the outgoing governor, A. B. "Happy" Chandler (yes, the
one-time baseball commisioner).

A way of expressing your disapproal of a piece of verse that has just been
recited was to add the words "Burma Shave" as soon as the reciter had finished.

         - James A. Landau

Aside to Wilson Gray---have you managed to forget the military meaning of
"heel-clicking"?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb  3 17:55:57 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:55:57 -0500
Subject: Have trunk, will travel (1954); Groundhog Day (1859)
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.125557.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

TSUNAMI

In today's newspaper (am-New York), someone from the UN urged people not to forget Africa, which has the "perpetual tsunamis" of war, poverty, and disease. "Tsunami" is already taking on a "holocaust"-like form.

(GOOGLE)
http://www.kempland4u.com/questions-answered-son/2005/1/6/the-developing-worlds-perpetual-tsunami.html

--------------------------------------------------------------
HAVE TRUNK, WILL TRAVEL

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
VIDEO-RADIO BRIEFS; McCarthy Hearings on TV, Radio Schedules
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 24, 1954. p. 26 (1 page):
(Photo caption)
HAVE TRUNK, WILL TRAVEL--Pinky Lee engages in a bit of elephant play with his namesake, Pinky from Moulin Rouge on KNBH (4) at 5 this afternoon.

--------------------------------------------------------------
GROUNDHOG DAY

"ProQuest Phil" didn't see his shadow, so it's eight more weeks of no updates whatsoever.

Every day of my life is Groundhog Day. Lunch is almost over--back to parking tickets.

(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Portsmouth Times  Saturday, February 05, 1870 Portsmouth, Ohio
...reliable. LAST WednesDAY was "GROUND HOG" DAY. The animal saw his shadow and.....contains three and one-half acres of GROUND. The idea of establishing a City..

   Centerville Citizen  Saturday, February 03, 1872 Centerville, Iowa
...at the Method- the 2d was GROUND-HOG DAY. i Our thanks to Hon. E. J.....term of said which will be the 7th DAY of at two o'clock P. M. of saM DAY..

   Coshocton Age  Friday, February 10, 1871 Coshocton, Ohio
...niki lind yourself sin editor. GROUND HOG DAY of last week proniid-iiogduy. If.....ii runs iliiliy. Kleban Kofler "Palace DAY ami Nihill Cars run flirniiifh..

   Coshocton Age  Friday, February 07, 1868 Coshocton, Ohio
...fur i.'ilutivo documents. Last GROUND-HOG DAY kondor if ho his shadow? fice.....rail-road hicctings are tho order ,ho DAY with our neighboring counties von Id..

   Progressive Age  Wednesday, February 09, 1859 Coshocton, Ohio
...There rausl somelhlBg fn "GROUND-HOG DAY'1 aller all. -as everybody.....onr attention to (be Tact that the "GROUND bog" story coincides with a much..


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Feb  3 18:14:37 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:14:37 -0500
Subject: "Have XXX Will Travel"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.131437.0500.>

On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:54:24 -0600, Mullins, Bill
<Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL> wrote:

>The science fiction author Robert Heinlein had a novel
>titled "Have Spacesuit Will Travel".  A recent commentary
>on his works (Robert A. Heinlein, A Reader's Companion by
>James Gifford, Nitrosyncretic Press) points out that it
>almost certainly was derived from the TV show "Have Gun
>Will Travel" (which I knew), but that an earlier version
>was the vaudeville phrase, "Have Tux, Will Travel" (which
>I didn't know).
>
>My PQ Historical Newspapers search on this phrase yielded
>1951 for a first cite, which sure seems late for a "vaudeville"
>phrase.
>
>>From www.etymonline.com :
>"Phrase have (noun), will (verb) is from 1954, originally
>from comedian Bob Hope, in the form Have tux, will travel;
>Hope described it as typical of vaudevillians' ads in
>"Variety," indicating a willingness to perform anywhere, any time."
>Hope wrote a book titled "Have Tux, Will Travel"
>
>Is the root of this phrase, "have (noun) will (verb)" older than
>the 1950's??

Earlier cites are available for "have tuxedo, will travel":

Nebraska State Journal, Jan 7, 1940, p. D7
When Columnist Louella Parsons' unit opened in Washington, D.C. last week,
Milton Berle wired:
"Lots of luck. Louella. Know you will be your charming self. (Signed)
Milton Berle, now appearing "See My Lawyer," $1.10 tops, on the air
Saturday night at 8:30; available for bazaars, confirmations, strawberry
festivals and banquets; special rates for picnic parties; can be reached
at Intervale 6-9432; it's a meat market, but they'll call me. Have tuxedo;
will travel."

Washington Post, Jun 11, 1942, p. 26
Private Julie Oshins of the vaudeville team of Oshins & Lessy now is at
Camp Upton. He filed his application for a role in Irving Berlin's "This
is the Army" revue, and listed his experience and qualifications. At the
end of the long list, the veteran Oshins instinctively added, "Have
tuxedo, will travel."


--Ben Zimmer


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb  3 18:27:07 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:27:07 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Planned Obsolescence"
In-Reply-To: <17CB0DC2.57E704BB.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.132707.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

planned obsolescence (OED 1966)

1932 Bernard London  (title) Ending the depression through planned
obsolescence.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb  3 19:45:50 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:45:50 -0500
Subject: Groundhog Day as cinenym
In-Reply-To: <17CB0DC2.57E704BB.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.144550.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:55 PM -0500 2/3/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>GROUNDHOG DAY
>
>"ProQuest Phil" didn't see his shadow, so it's eight more weeks of
>no updates whatsoever.
>
>Every day of my life is Groundhog Day. Lunch is almost over--back to
>parking tickets.
>

How many other lexical items originated as movie titles that don't
actually refer directly to any  property encoded by that lexical
item?  That is, the interpretation of "Groundhog Day" in e.g. "Every
day of my life is Groundhog Day" or "It's (like) Groundhog Day
(again)" derives by transfer from the fact that the movie in question
is about a Bill-Murray-type figure who must relive the same day over
and over again, or whatever.  Let's say that this particular kind of
semantic transfer or shift results in a cinenym.  (Sorry about that.)
What are other examples?  One I can think of off the cuff is
"Gaslight".   (The less interesting cinenyms are the more transparent
ones, such as "Star Wars" or "Back to the Future"; the more
interesting ones involve aspects of the plot that are not accessible
from the title itself.)

Related question:  when do lexicographers begin to list such
non-compositional lexical items?  I note that AHD4 for Groundhog Day
just has

'February 2, on which according to popular legend the groundhog
emerges from its burrow, prompting the prediction of an early spring
if it does not see its shadow or six more weeks of winter if it does.'

--which doesn't much help for recovering the relevant sense of the
term.  Sim., OED.    But the OED (although not the AHD) does have
_gaslight_ (verb and gerundive noun) as a cinenym based on the 40's
movie:  "to manipulate (a person) by psychological means into
questioning his or her own sanity".  So maybe Groundhog Day will join
it some day, although the odds are against a denominal verb arising
to carry the day.

larry


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Feb  3 20:02:16 2005
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:02:16 EST
Subject: Burma-Shave
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.150216.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Wed, 2 Feb 2005 12:08:24 -0600, Victoria Neufeldt
<vneufeldt at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM> asks:

>  I have been wondering, on reading all these Burma Shave jingles, who
>  wrote them.  Was it a committee?  One bright light in an ad agency?
>  Might this be documented anywhere?

According to Frank Rowsome Jr. _The Verse by the Side of the Road"
Brattleboro GT: Stephen Greene Press, 1965, ISBN 0-8289-0038-8, page 24, the jingles
were originally written by Allen and Clinton Odell, sons of the founder of the
company.  "Yet by the end of the Twenties it was painfully evident that their
muse was growing haggard and scrawny.  After a brief and unpromising dalliance
with staff "jingle artists," Allan turned to the idea of an annual contest,
with $100 paid for each verse accepted."

Most famous?  pp 66, 67 and 117
Within this vale
of toil
and sin
Your head grows bald
But not your chin
Burma Shave

This is the one that the company donated to the Smithsonian.

Checking through Rowsome's list of 600 Burma-Shave jingles (taken from
company records, with a caveat that the records have some lacunae), I find the only
ones I recognize are

Ben met Anna  (quoted previously on ADS-L)

At a quiz
Pa ain't
No Whiz
But He Knows How
To Keep Ma His
Burma Shave

Tempted to try it?
Follow your hunch
Be "Top Banana"
Not one
of the bunch
Burma Shave

    - Jim Landau


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb  3 21:01:55 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 16:01:55 -0500
Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
In-Reply-To: <200502031601.j13G1QIc018348@pantheon-po07.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.160155.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is anyone willing to search ProQuest Historical Newspapers to see if there
are any pre-1977 hits for "the future ain't what it used to be" or "the
future isn't what it used to be"?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Thu Feb  3 21:07:27 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:07:27 -0600
Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.150727.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thinking Things Over
By VERMONT ROYSTER
Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file); Feb 13, 1974; ProQuest
Historical Newspapers The Wall Street Journal (1889 - 1987)
pg. 16

"There's no doubt about it, the future ain't what it used to be."

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Shapiro
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 3:02 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"

>
> Is anyone willing to search ProQuest Historical Newspapers to
> see if there are any pre-1977 hits for "the future ain't what
> it used to be" or "the future isn't what it used to be"?
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Feb  3 21:18:02 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:18:02 -0600
Subject: Big Apple
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.151802.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Such a work is already planned: _Origin of New York City's Nickname "The Big Apple"_, 2nd edition.  (I authored the first edition, 1991, and Barry Popik followed it up with his extraordinary research, particularly on  turf-writer John J. Fitz Gerald. The second edition will be co-authored by Popik and me.) --  Likeliest date of publication: 2006.

Gerald Cohen

> ----------
> From:         American Dialect Society on behalf of sagehen
> Sent:         Wednesday, February 2, 2005 12:10 PM
> To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject:           Big Apple
>
> Isn't it time for someone to do a thesis on the genealogies of all the various accounts of how the Big Apple got its name? Who cited whom & when, and why was that version preferred over another, etc?  It's clear there must be masses of material, even if only publication in periodicals were to be used.
> AM
                                # # #


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Thu Feb  3 21:37:06 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:37:06 -0600
Subject: Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.153706.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yesterday I received an email from sandwich-researcher Becky Mercuri, and below my signoff are some relevant excerpts:

Gerald Cohen

> ----------
> From:         Beckymercuri at aol.com
> Sent:         Wednesday, February 2, 2005 4:30 PM
> To:   Cohen, Gerald Leonard
> Subject:      American Sandwich in Houston Chronicle
>
> Gerald:
>
> Below is an article in today's Houston Chronicle with a nice mention of my book, American Sandwich. Too bad they didn't, once again, mention Barry. I always state how much I rely upon his research. And he did name me "The Sandwich Lady."
>
> Best,
> Becky
>
> HoustonChronicle.com -- http://www.houstonchronicle.com/ | Section: Food
>
> Feb. 1, 2005, 8:02PM
>
>  ARE YOU READY FOR SOME FOOTBALL?
> The Game Plan
> Sandwiches with spirit -- no menu malfunctions here
> By SYD KEARNEY
> Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle
>
[...] The Sandwich Lady is Becky Mercuri, author of American Sandwich: Great Eats From All 50 States (Gibbs Smith, $12.95). And, yes, you can find baked bean sandwiches in Beantown, she says.
>
> But a more appropriate sandwich to honor the reigning Super Bowl champs would be the lobster roll.
>
> "The lobster roll is my absolute favorite sandwich," Mercuri says by phone from her home in New York state.
>
> Mercuri gives my lobster roll and cheese steak menu a thumbs up.
>
> There's nothing more appropriate for Super Bowl feasting than the sandwich, she says.
>
> "Sandwiches are completely all-American. The sandwich is a uniquely American institution as far as popularity and variety. (And it) isn't just for lunch anymore," Mercuri says.
>
> Sunday, Mercuri will serve her party guests two sammies featured in American Sandwich: Pepperoni Rolls, which were popularized in West Virginia, and the Garlic Parmesan Deli Hoagie, which hails from North Carolina. For Pepperoni Rolls, sausage and cheese are baked with the bread dough. Mercuri describes the hoagie as an Atlantic Coast version of New Orleans' muffuletta that spotlights the state's $475-million-a-year turkey industry.
>
> The two sandwiches are perfect for entertaining. "Everything can be prepared in advance, so I'm not stuck in the kitchen while everyone else is enjoying the game," Mercuri says.
>
> In her book, Mercuri traces the history of the sandwich, popularly regarded as the invention of John Montagu (1718-1792), the Fourth Earl of Sandwich. Americans, however, put the sandwich on the culinary map. Two of those Americans have ties to the Super Bowl opponents' hometowns. Philadelphian Eliza Leslie, Mercuri writes, is "apparently the first person to formally introduce the sandwich to America." She did so through Miss Leslie's Directions for Cookery, published in 1837.
>
> The sandwich's versatility wasn't thoroughly examined, however, until Mrs. D.A. Lincoln penned the Boston Cooking School Cook Book in 1884. The cookbook featured a variety of sandwich fillings, including tongue, lobster and "raw beef."
>
> In the spirit of Mrs. Lincoln and with the blessing of the Sandwich Lady, here are some combinations to consider for your Super Bowl-viewing guests.
>   [...]
>
                                # # #


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Feb  3 21:58:12 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 13:58:12 -0800
Subject: representing reduced auxiliaries orthographically
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.135812.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

in e-mail from a stanford staff member today, about an event i'm unable
to attend:
----
Hi Arnold,

Sorry you can't make it, they'll be more events soon!
-----

as a transcription of speech (for something standing for "there will"),
this is right on.  i myself would say [DEl] (where [D] is a voiced
interdental fricative and [E] a lax mid front vowel).  this rhymes with
"bell" and is homophonous with my usual pronunciation of "they'll"
(standing for "they will").  this is not, however, the standard
spelling (which is "there'll", but that clearly has two syllables in
it, not to mention an [r]).

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Feb  3 22:56:32 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 17:56:32 -0500
Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.175632.0500.>

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:07:27 -0600, Mullins, Bill
<Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL> wrote:

>Thinking Things Over
>By VERMONT ROYSTER
>Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file); Feb 13, 1974; ProQuest
>Historical Newspapers The Wall Street Journal (1889 - 1987)
>pg. 16
>
>"There's no doubt about it, the future ain't what it used to be."

Earlier cites have "is not" or "isn't" instead of "ain't":

Los Angeles Times, Nov 3, 1963, p. M5
Today's generation of collegians is an intense, serious group and they
realize far more than their elders that the "future is not what it used to
be," he [sc. Dr. Abram L. Sacher] said.

Sheboygan Press (Wisc.), Feb 25, 1966, p. 3
A luncheon at Town and Country Club was followed by an address by Dr.
Roderick McPhee, superintendent of schools at Glencoe, Ill. His topic was
"The Future Is Not What It
Used To Be."

Washington Post, Jul 6, 1969, p. G1
Here's a [Stan] Vanderbeek paradox: "The future is not what it used to be."

New York Times, Nov 30, 1969, p. D22
(heading) The Future Is Not What It Used To Be
To some, a legend seen on a lapel button at Cambridge by John Hightower,
executive director of The New York State Council on the Arts, seemed a
perfect expression of the seminar's impact. "The Future Is Not What It
Used To Be," the button stated.

Lima News (Ohio), Sep 13, 1970, p. C
CAMERA THREE. "The Future Isn't What It Used To Be." Confusing is the word
for the title of this program and the confusion surrounding the nature,
perception and appearance of the future is, indeed, its subject. On hand
to attempt some clarification of it all are bonafide experts: R.
Buckminster Fuller, architect, mathematician and city planner; Arthur C.
Clark, science writer and author of "2001;" and Alvin Toffler, author of
the recent blockbuster, "Future Shock." 11 a.m. CBS.


--Ben Zimmer


>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society
>> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Fred Shapiro
>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 3:02 PM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
>
>>
>> Is anyone willing to search ProQuest Historical Newspapers to
>> see if there are any pre-1977 hits for "the future ain't what
>> it used to be" or "the future isn't what it used to be"?
>>
>> Fred Shapiro
>>
>>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 23:22:54 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:22:54 -0800
Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.152254.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about "Nostalgia Ain't What it Used to Be"?   Old movie title.

JL

Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Fred Shapiro
Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is anyone willing to search ProQuest Historical Newspapers to see if there
are any pre-1977 hits for "the future ain't what it used to be" or "the
future isn't what it used to be"?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press,
Yale Law School forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb  3 23:25:12 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:25:12 -0800
Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.152512.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To resond to my<Card entry="0" title="hdas:1.02" sortkey="" url="0" stage="C" type="citecard">
 <Quotation url="0" status="Active">
  <Citation>
   <CiteHeader>
    <Lemma>
    suss out</Lemma>
    <PartOfSpeech>
    v</PartOfSpeech>
    <CiteMetadata>
     "sniff out"
    </CiteMetadata>
   </CiteHeader>
   <Date>
   2005</Date>
<CiteInfo><WorkInfo><WorkTitle>RE: Interesting bits of the Bible</WorkTitle>
                 <WorkLoc weburl="Int.http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=77855&page=3&desc=yes">Int.</WorkLoc>
                 <CalDate>Jan. 30</CalDate>
                 <Location></Location></WorkInfo></CiteInfo>
               </Citation>
               <QuotText> Sussing out that meaning is part of the plan.</QuotText>
 </Quotation>
To reply to my own post yet again, that title is probably "Isn't."

JL

Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Jonathan Lighter
Subject: Re: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How about "Nostalgia Ain't What it Used to Be"? Old movie title.

JL

Fred Shapiro wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Fred Shapiro
Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is anyone willing to search ProQuest Historical Newspapers to see if there
are any pre-1977 hits for "the future ain't what it used to be" or "the
future isn't what it used to be"?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press,
Yale Law School forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Thu Feb  3 23:38:05 2005
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:38:05 EST
Subject: BEI MIR BIST DU SCHON
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.183805.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The following story, forwarded to me by Cantor Ralph Goren of Congregation
Beth El in Margate New Jersey, may be of interest to the ethnic-music historians
on the list:

      They called themselves Johnny and George, and they played the Apollo
Theatre and any other gigs they could get one hot summer in the 1930s. Somewhere
along the way, they managed to get a booking at Grossinger's up in the
Catskills. Not bad. Free meals, you make a few bucks and you're out of New York City
for a little while, beating all that August heat that could blow down the
sidewalks of 125th St. like a blast furnace. One day Jenny Grossinger showed them
the music sheets for this Yiddish song called "Bei Mir Bist du Schon," and
Johnny and George had a little fun with it, with never a clue that what they had
here was going to become one of the biggest hits of their time - but not for
them.
        So summer's over now, and Johnny and George are back down at the
Apollo, and they decide to open with this Grossinger's song. They sing it straight
through in Yiddish, but they kick up the beat and they get it rocking. And
then they get it rocking more. The crowd goes wild. Everybody's dancing. The
Apollo has never heard anything like this. Two black guys singing a swing version
of a Yiddish song? In Yiddish?
        Watching all this from the balcony that night were two up-and-coming
songwriters, Sammy Cahn and Saul Chaplin, and they both knew a sensation when
they heard one. Who owned the rights to this song? they wondered. And what
would they want for them?
        Checking it out, Cahn and Chaplin learned that the lyrics had been
written by one Jacob Jacobs, who, with his music-writing partner Sholom Secunda,
had composed "Bei Mir Bist du Schon" for a Yiddish production called "I Would
If I Could." They'd already tried to sell it to Eddie Cantor, with no luck.
When Cahn offered $30, they were happy to accept. This was nothing unusual for
them. They'd sold hundreds of songs for $30 apiece.
        Cahn and Chaplin went straight to Tommy Dorsey with their new $30
song, urging the bandleader to play it at the Paramount. Dorsey wasn't
interested. Well, it was in Yiddish, he explained.
        So Cahn and Chaplin translated the lyrics into English.
        And then they took the tune to this new group of girl singers. The
Andrews Sisters, they called themselves.
        It happened that the sisters were then recording a Gershwin song
called "Nice Work if You Can Get It," and it was decided that "Bei Mir Bist du
Schon" would work okay as the B side:
            Of all the boys I've known, and I've known some
            Until I first met you, I was lonesome
            And when you came in sight, dear, my heart grew light
            And this old world seemed new to me
             ... And so I've racked my brain, hoping to explain
            All the things that you do to me
            Bei mir bist du schon, please let me explain
             Bei mir bist du schon means you're grand
        The Andrews' record was released a few days after Christmas 1938. By
New Year's Eve it was playing over and over again on every radio station in
New York City.
        It started when "The Milkman's Matinee" on WNEW picked it up and
played it on the all-night show. Soon there were near riots at the record stores.
Crowds would line up and the song would be played out into the street from
loudspeakers. Traffic would back up for blocks. By the end of January, "Bei Mir
Bist du Schon" had sold more than 350,000 copies.
        "Bei Mir Bist du Schon" fever spread across the land. "It's wowing
the country," reported one New Jersey paper. "They're singing it in Camden,
Wilkes-Barre, Hamilton, Ohio, and Kenosha, Wis. The cowboys of the West are
warbling the undulating melody and so are the hillbillies of the South, the
lumberjacks of the Northwest, the fruit packers of California, the salmon canners of
Alaska."
        And it was huge hit in Yorkville: "The Nazi bierstuben patrons yodel
it religiously, under the impression that it's a Goebbels-approved German
chanty."
             I could say Bella Bella, even say Voonderbar
             Each language only helps me tell you how grand you are.
        Over in Germany, Hitler himself was a big fan. Finally, the Third
Reich had a tune, it could hum to.
        At least until it was discovered that the song had been written by
two Jews from Brooklyn.

        Over the years, "Bei Mir Bist du Schon" made millions of dollars for
a lot of singers and record companies. Finally, in 1961, after standing on the
sidelines and watching the royalties ring up over the years for a song that
they'd made 15 bucks each on, Secunda and Jacobs got the rights back.
        As for Johnny and George, who started all the excitement one night at
the Apollo up in Harlem, it goes unrecorded whatever became of them, or even
what their last names were.

        Originally published on November 5, 2004

         Get a load of this from Exodus 19:4
         "Al kanfei nesharim."
         "I have lifted you up on Eagles' wings.."
        GO EAGLES!!


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb  3 23:41:43 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:41:43 -0500
Subject: Burma Shave
In-Reply-To: <E1Cwksg-0003Gy-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.184143.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 3, 2005, at 12:34 PM, James A. Landau wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Burma Shave
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>>  2 books that are to be found in better libraries everywhere:
>>  he Verse by the Side of the Road: The Story of the Burma-Shave Signs
>>  and Jingles, by Frank Rowsome, Jr., in print from Penguin for $12.95
>>  Burma-Shave: The Rhymes, the Signs, the Times, by Bill Vossler, in
>>  print from North Star Press of St. Cloud for $14.95
>
> I have the Rowsome book---unfortunately I can't find it at the moment.
>  It
> includes what is claimed to be a list of all Burma Shave jingles.
>
> Two contributions Burma-Shave made to the American language:
>
> "A town so small that it fit between two Burma-Shave signs"  (I heard
> this
> one in the 1959-60 school year, in reference to Versailles, Kentucky
> (/v at r
> 'seilz/), the home of the outgoing governor, A. B. "Happy" Chandler
> (yes, the
> one-time baseball commisioner).
>
> A way of expressing your disapproal of a piece of verse that has just
> been
> recited was to add the words "Burma Shave" as soon as the reciter had
> finished.
>
>          - James A. Landau
>
> Aside to Wilson Gray---have you managed to forget the military meaning
> of
> "heel-clicking"?
>

I've never heard this term used in a military context, Jim. So, feel
free to explain. But that reminds me. In the WWII anti-German
propaganda of my childhood, the marine-style "jarhead" haircut, the use
of a monocle, and clicking one's heels and bowing one's head when
shaking hands were all considered to be stereotypically German.

During the early '60's, when I was stationed in Germany, young German
males wore what came to be known as the Beatle haircut. (I've always
felt that the Beatles didn't originate this style. Rather, they picked
up on it from German kids during their Hamburg days.) No one that I saw
wore a monocle. But German males, whether younger than I was then or
older than I am now, actually *did* click their heels and bow their
heads when shaking hands. Weird! It always seemed so Nazi. Who'd a
thunk it?

Also, German soldiers in uniform always saluted American soldiers in
uniform, regardless of the G.I.'s rank. I have no idea why they did
that, since they always looked pissed off as hell while doing it. By
contrast, we were told that we were allowed to salute German
*officers,* but only _if we felt like it_. So, of course, we always
saluted German officers while doing our best to avoid saluting our own
officers. Exceptionally, we black G.I.'s went out of our way to salute
black offficers, but only out of race pride, since it was our
experience that assholery was typical of all officers, irrespective of
race, creed, color, religion, or sexual orientation.

-Wilson Gray


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Feb  4 00:51:22 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:51:22 -0500
Subject: gestures and signs
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.195122.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

More on gestures...

There is an interesting piece in the New Dictionary of Sacramental Worship
about the sign of the cross, no doubt, one of the earlier "gestures" still
in use about 1800 years later.  Although, we don't know if Adam
"middle-fingered" Eve after giving him the apple, do we?

There was also an interesting piece in the Science Times section of The
New York Times on Tuesday.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Feb  4 00:55:12 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:55:12 -0500
Subject: gestures and signs
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.195512.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

_sign of the cross_ (OED: c1290).  Is there any indication of what
Anglo-Saxons called it?

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb  4 01:21:11 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 20:21:11 -0500
Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.202111.0500.>

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 15:22:54 -0800, Jonathan Lighter
<wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

>How about "Nostalgia Ain't What it Used to Be"?   Old movie title.


Los Angeles Times, Jul 26, 1964, p. B13
Peter de Vries is the man who said, "Nostalgia isn't what it used to be."



--Ben Zimmer


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb  4 02:20:04 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 21:20:04 -0500
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <E1Cwi8N-0003Lw-00@mx06.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.212004.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:38 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Thanks, Wilson. The military sense must be fairly obscure, since I
> just discovered it and it seems to go back to the '50s among Morse
> operators.  Pretty expressive, though.
>
> As for "pimpmobile," it seems to have taken a full decade for your
> creation to have reached the print media.
>
> JL

You know what gives me the jaws (there's a bit in HDAS about this use
of "jaws"; can't recall at the moment whether it has this particular
version) about "pimpmobile"? There's simply no way to find out whether
I'm really *the* source. It's such an obvious coinage that any number
of other people could have come up with it any number of times. It's
even possible that the first person to use the word in print coined it
independently. Sigh! No 15 minutes of fame for me.

-Wilson


> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> When I was a teenager in the 'Fifties in St. Louis,
> "dittybop(p)er"/diddybop(per)" was a fairly mild insult that meant
> something like "wannabe hipster." There was no verb form.
>
> Unfortunately, when I was in The War, I didn't have occasion to come
> into contact with any Morse-code operators. More useless information:
> when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it sounds like Morse code to
> the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the equipment available in the
> late '50's.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Have discovered that besides their tedious old meanings, so familiar
>> that I needn't bore you with them, these words have been used in the
>> military with the senses "high-speed Morse operator" and "high-speed
>> Morse receiver/transmitter." To "dittybop" also means "to transmit
>> Morse code at high speed."
>>
>> Can any of my distinguished colleagues and consultants add anything to
>> the above from personal experience ?
>>
>> JL
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb  4 02:50:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:50:00 -0800
Subject: "belongingness"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.185000.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Speaking on "Larry King Live" tonight, Dr. Phil McGraw observed that a nurturing family provides children with "a wonderful sense of belongingness."

JL


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 02:56:21 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 21:56:21 EST
Subject: "Have Car, Will Travel" (1929)
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.215621.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's also "Have Suitcase, Will Travel," but that appears to be from  about
1955. This one with "car" makes a lot of sense. It was often used in the
classifieds.
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
_Classified  Ad 21 -- No Title_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=92037497&SrchMode=1&sid=15&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107
485156&clientId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current  file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 18, 1929. p. 52 (1
page)
...
EXECUTIVE, organizer, salesman, 38; fifteen years' experience; large
following; especially salesman; have car; will travel.
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
     _Appleton Post Crescent _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Pf2/SIh9fJOKID/6NLMW2qZQMwvA+r4RRd0RnJZZHKn16pvJDRvJgw==)  Wednesday, April
24, 1929 _Appleton,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:appleton+have+car+and+will+travel+AND)  _Wisconsin_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+have+car+and+will+travel+AND)
...local connection.  WILL TRAVEL. HAVE CAR. Address F.5S
PostCrescent.....cement. Haul, yours out of the CAR, If WILL  pay you. One CAR  extra..


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb  4 03:26:25 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 19:26:25 -0800
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.192625.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The possibility that Wilson may be the inglorious Milton who coined "pimpmobile" reminds me that back on Oct. 22 I reported two occurrences of the word "scuzzcrack" on CBS's "Joan of Arcadia" that evening, a word which had not appeared on the Net or anywhere else that I was aware of.

Despite its simultaneous reception in millions of American homes, there is still no evidence of wider usage more than 90 days later.

So if Wilson set "pimpmobile" afloat in 1963 without the aid of mass media, we reasonably might not expect it to surface till sometime in the mid 22nd century.

A quick Google check uncovers about one quarter million examples of "pimpmobile" on the Web alone. I am sorry to report, therefore, that any claim in favor of Wilson's unique ownership of this word for copyright, trademark, or servicemark purposes is likely to be staunchly contested.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:38 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Thanks, Wilson. The military sense must be fairly obscure, since I
> just discovered it and it seems to go back to the '50s among Morse
> operators. Pretty expressive, though.
>
> As for "pimpmobile," it seems to have taken a full decade for your
> creation to have reached the print media.
>
> JL

You know what gives me the jaws (there's a bit in HDAS about this use
of "jaws"; can't recall at the moment whether it has this particular
version) about "pimpmobile"? There's simply no way to find out whether
I'm really *the* source. It's such an obvious coinage that any number
of other people could have come up with it any number of times. It's
even possible that the first person to use the word in print coined it
independently. Sigh! No 15 minutes of fame for me.

-Wilson


> Wilson Gray wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> When I was a teenager in the 'Fifties in St. Louis,
> "dittybop(p)er"/diddybop(per)" was a fairly mild insult that meant
> something like "wannabe hipster." There was no verb form.
>
> Unfortunately, when I was in The War, I didn't have occasion to come
> into contact with any Morse-code operators. More useless information:
> when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it sounds like Morse code to
> the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the equipment available in the
> late '50's.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Have discovered that besides their tedious old meanings, so familiar
>> that I needn't bore you with them, these words have been used in the
>> military with the senses "high-speed Morse operator" and "high-speed
>> Morse receiver/transmitter." To "dittybop" also means "to transmit
>> Morse code at high speed."
>>
>> Can any of my distinguished colleagues and consultants add anything to
>> the above from personal experience ?
>>
>> JL
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>




---------------------------------
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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb  4 03:49:35 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 22:49:35 -0500
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
In-Reply-To: <E1Cwu72-0001Qd-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.224935.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What is the meaning of "scuzzcrack"? It's not as obvious as that of
"pimpmobile."

-Wilson

On Feb 3, 2005, at 10:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The possibility that Wilson may be the inglorious Milton who coined
> "pimpmobile" reminds me that back on Oct. 22 I reported two
> occurrences of the word "scuzzcrack" on CBS's "Joan of Arcadia" that
> evening, a word which had not appeared on the Net or anywhere else
> that I was aware of.
>
> Despite its simultaneous reception in millions of American homes,
> there is still no evidence of wider usage more than 90 days later.
>
> So if Wilson set "pimpmobile" afloat in 1963 without the aid of mass
> media, we reasonably might not expect it to surface till sometime in
> the mid 22nd century.
>
> A quick Google check uncovers about one quarter million examples of
> "pimpmobile" on the Web alone. I am sorry to report, therefore, that
> any claim in favor of Wilson's unique ownership of this word for
> copyright, trademark, or servicemark purposes is likely to be
> staunchly contested.
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:38 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Thanks, Wilson. The military sense must be fairly obscure, since I
>> just discovered it and it seems to go back to the '50s among Morse
>> operators. Pretty expressive, though.
>>
>> As for "pimpmobile," it seems to have taken a full decade for your
>> creation to have reached the print media.
>>
>> JL
>
> You know what gives me the jaws (there's a bit in HDAS about this use
> of "jaws"; can't recall at the moment whether it has this particular
> version) about "pimpmobile"? There's simply no way to find out whether
> I'm really *the* source. It's such an obvious coinage that any number
> of other people could have come up with it any number of times. It's
> even possible that the first person to use the word in print coined it
> independently. Sigh! No 15 minutes of fame for me.
>
> -Wilson
>
>
>> Wilson Gray wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> When I was a teenager in the 'Fifties in St. Louis,
>> "dittybop(p)er"/diddybop(per)" was a fairly mild insult that meant
>> something like "wannabe hipster." There was no verb form.
>>
>> Unfortunately, when I was in The War, I didn't have occasion to come
>> into contact with any Morse-code operators. More useless information:
>> when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it sounds like Morse code
>> to
>> the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the equipment available in
>> the
>> late '50's.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>>
>> On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>> Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> -
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Have discovered that besides their tedious old meanings, so familiar
>>> that I needn't bore you with them, these words have been used in the
>>> military with the senses "high-speed Morse operator" and "high-speed
>>> Morse receiver/transmitter." To "dittybop" also means "to transmit
>>> Morse code at high speed."
>>>
>>> Can any of my distinguished colleagues and consultants add anything
>>> to
>>> the above from personal experience ?
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
>


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Fri Feb  4 04:06:06 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 22:06:06 -0600
Subject: gestures and signs
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e01ce385c3b9aca0021865145.1ce386d@chain.highlands.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.220606.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>_sign of the cross_ (OED: c1290).  Is there any indication of what
>Anglo-Saxons called it?
>
>Regards,
>David
>
>barnhart at highlands.com

According to _A Thesaurus of Old English_

bletsung, cristelmae:l, cru:c, ha:lig ro:de ta:cen, ro:d, ro:de tq:cen

to 'make the sign of the cross" was

(ge)bletsian, (ge)mercian mid ... ro:de, (ge)segnian

My copy of Clark-Hall _A concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary_ translates
these back into ModEng as

'consecration, blessing, benediction, favor of God'; [=
cri:stesmae:l] 'Christ's mark, the cross'; 'cross', [written
rodetacen] 'holy sign of the cross'; 'sign of the cross'

'consecrate, ordain, bless, give thanks, adore, extol, sign with the
cross, pronounce or make happy'; [= mearcian] 'mark with ... cross',
'to make the sign of the cross, cross oneself, consecrate, bless'

It also gives wyrcan cristesmael for 'to make the sign of the cross'.

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Feb  4 04:12:42 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 23:12:42 -0500
Subject: BEI MIR BIST DU SCHON
In-Reply-To: <156.49f2d1c7.2f340fdd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.231242.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

James Landau writes:
.....> Watching all this from the balcony that night were two up-and-coming
songwriters, Sammy Cahn and Saul Chaplin, and they both knew a sensation
when they heard one.....<
~~~~~~~
 Thanks for the account of  the appearance of this song.  I remember its
great popularity very well.  It was quite a while before I learned that it
wasn't  "Buy beer, Mister Shane,"  which was what I thought I was hearing,
whether  sung by the Andrews Sisters or others. Everyone was singing it.
A. Murie

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb  4 04:59:45 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 23:59:45 -0500
Subject: more hash house lingo (1889-1899)
Message-ID: <THU.3.FEB.2005.235945.0500.>

A search on antedatings for "sunny side up" (OED2 1901) turns up many
vivid descriptions of Bowery hash house slang at the end of the 19th
century.  The articles below supplement the ones already discovered by
Barry Popik:

Brooklyn Eagle, "Restaurant Calls" (1887)
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0302D&L=ads-l&P=R4528

N.Y. Herald, "Very Democratic Hash" (1888)
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0210E&L=ads-l&P=R2751

L.A. Times, "Slang of the Restaurants" (1897)
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0307C&L=ads-l&P=R3588

Atlanta Constitution, "Story of a Queer Cafe in New York" (1899)
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0311A&L=ads-l&P=R4213
http://barrypopik.com/article/161/hash-house-lingo

(The Constitution article attributes the Bowery slang to one Michael
Casey, while the 1895 obituary below gives Frank Ehrler much of the
credit.)

-----
Washington Post, Sep. 15, 1889, p. 9, col. 4
The Bowery has a language all its own, which reaches its most artistic
perfection in the eating houses. Here are some of the terms used by the
waiters: White wings, sunny side up (fried eggs, not turned); a life
preserver (beef stew, so called because that is what a hungry man buys
with his last dime); slaughter in the pan, black one (beefsteak and
coffee); Boston (baked beans).
-----
Middletown Daily Press (N.Y.), Dec. 5, 1890, p. 3, col. 2
Farmer Hayseed (in a ten-cent hash house)--Say, gimme me some roast duck.
Waiter (singing out)--Quack! Farmer Hayseed-?An' some beans! Waiter--Plate
o' Bostons and?- Farmer (hesitatingly)?-And some fried eggs. Waiter--Adam
an' Eve, wid the sunny side up. Farmer (very doubtfully)?-And a glass o'
milk! Waiter?-Drive de cow home! Farmer--And some chick. Waiter?-
Cock-a-doodle-doo! Farmer?-Gee whiz! Lemme out! -?Boston Traveller.
-----
New York Times, Jun 5, 1895, p. 16, col. 4
One of the "Beefsteak Johns" is dead. His name was Frank Ehrler. ...
Frank Ehrler was always a good-natured witty man, and he and his brother
Dominick practically originated the peculiar slang abbreviations for food
now so generally used by the waiters in the chop and eating places.
"Beef stew for a bum, and take the butter off the table," was one of his
original ways of taking an order for a shady customer.
Another was, "A roll and a bowl and beef a la mode for the Markee. Lock up
the butter."
"Sunny side up" was his message to the cook when eggs were ordered fried
on one side only.
"In the dark" was his brief and expressive way of ordering coffee without
milk.
"Extra ladies' salad" meant chicken salad.
-----
Sandusky Star (Ohio), Jan. 27, 1899, p. 1, col. 4
Bowery English is a language of its own. It is distinctly foreign to the
Anglo-Saxon commonly in vogue in the ordinary walks of life. It is used
almost exclusively in the restaurants of the thoroughfare and is apt to
startle strangers. For instance, a customer not accustomed to the life of
the Bowery, who wandered into one of its restaurants by mistake, might
call for ham and eggs, and the waiter would yell to the cook, "A slice for
a gazabo wid a souvenir from de feather factory." Or perhaps the customer
would desire two eggs fried plain. The waiter's order to the kitchen would
be in the choicest Bowery dialect about as follows. "T'row on a pair of de
white wings an have de sunny side up." A glass of milk would bring forth
an order for cow juice "wid an overcoat." A steak, "number seven;" beef
stew, "mixed Irish;" pork and beans, "Boston labor and Chicago capital;"
corned beef sandwich, "stare the cow in the face;" mush and milk,
"disturbed hen fruit;" Spanish omelet, "Santiago cake walk;" chocolate
eclair, "French roll wid black dirt on it;" rice and cream, "Chinese white
wedding," and so on until every article on the bill of fare has its own
name. "Why do we talk dat way to de cooks?" asked one of the waiters in
reply to a query. "Why, dem blokies wouldn't know what youse wuz talkin
about if youse said it any udder way."
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb  4 05:12:04 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 00:12:04 -0500
Subject: Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <E1Cwof2-0005UZ-00@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.001204.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 3, 2005, at 4:37 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote:

>> sammies

sammies?!


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb  4 05:14:56 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 00:14:56 -0500
Subject: "Have Car, Will Travel" (1929)
In-Reply-To: <15c.495b8429.2f343e55@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.001456.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 9:56 PM -0500 2/3/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>There's also "Have Suitcase, Will Travel," but that appears to be from  about
>1955. This one with "car" makes a lot of sense.

Agreed, although these were somewhat before my time

>It was often used in the
>classifieds.
>...

Aha.  The classifieds makes sense as an original locus, whether it
was "Have tux" or "Have car".  I was thinking telegrams--those
missing pronouns and articles do make it seem like telegraphese,
saving a few cents on each--but that would presumably apply to the
cost of classified ads too.

larry

>...
>(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
>_Classified  Ad 21 -- No Title_
>(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=92037497&SrchMode=1&sid=15&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107
>485156&clientId=65882)
>New York Times (1857-Current  file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 18, 1929. p. 52 (1
>page)
>...
>EXECUTIVE, organizer, salesman, 38; fifteen years' experience; large
>following; especially salesman; have car; will travel.
>...
>...
>(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
>      _Appleton Post Crescent _
>(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Pf2/SIh9fJOKID/6NLMW2qZQMwvA+r4RRd0RnJZZHKn16pvJDRvJgw==)
>Wednesday, April
>24, 1929 _Appleton,_
>(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:appleton+have+car+and+will+travel+AND)
>_Wisconsin_
>(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+have+car+and+will+travel+AND)
>...local connection.  WILL TRAVEL. HAVE CAR. Address F.5S
>PostCrescent.....cement. Haul, yours out of the CAR, If WILL  pay
>you. One CAR  extra..


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb  4 06:33:15 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 01:33:15 -0500
Subject: Antiphrasis among the Rough Riders
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.013315.0500.>

Antiphrastic nicknaming (e.g., calling a bald man "Curly") was apparently
quite popular among the Rough Riders of the Spanish-American War:

-----
Los Angeles Times, Oct 4, 1898, p. 5
Rough Riders' Pet Names.
Origin of Some Queer Sobriquets Bestowed on the Troopers.
>From the New York Sun.
[...]
Many of the nicknames are conferred in a spirit of derision, their basis
lying in contrast. Two men of diametrically opposite type were assigned to
bunk together in the same tent, and essentially became sworn friends. One
was the typical fastidious clubman, the other a tobacco-chewing, cursing,
rough-and-ready bad man from the Middle West. Immediately the clubman was
christened "Tough Ike," and his bunkie became known through the regiment
as "that damn dude," or for short, "the D.D." "Metropolitan Bill" is a
citizen of the far West, whose chief claim to being a city man is that he
has an aunt living in New York.  "Sheeny Solomon," sometimes called "Old
Clo'es," is a red-headed Irishman, six feet two in his stocking feet. The
"Immigrant" is a trooper whose family helped settle New York. "Rubber Shoe
Andy" distinguished himself and won his name on scouting duty by
invariably tumbling over something with a great clatter at the very moment
when silence was most essential.
There are three bald-headed men in one troop, known, of course, as the
Sutherland Sisters-- Sister Jane, Sister Anne and Sister Araminta. A young
fellow-- and a mighty good fighter, too-- who is proud of his Jewish
blood, has accepted with perfect equanimity the nickname of the "Pork
Chop." In the same troop with him is a private who is probably the mildest
spoken man in the army. One evening, however, he got excited over
something and was plainly heard by several auditors whose testimony is
unimpeachable, to exclaim: "Oh thunder!" That settled his case. He has
been known ever since as "Blasphemy Bill." A Mississippi River gambler,
noted for his quite demeanor, is called "Hellroarer," while the most
picturesquely and flamboyantly profane man in the regiment rejoices in the
appellation of "Prayerful James." The funmaker for one troop is a
light-hearted Swede, always full of jokes, and because of his propensities
and his nationality called the "Weeping Dutchman." "Nigger" is a young
fellow who is so white as to be almost an albino. ...
It goes without saying that at the start all the fat men were called
"Living Skeleton," "Bean Pole," "Shadow," "Starvation Bill," "Dr. Tanner,"
and so on, while the thin troopers were generally designated as "Jumbo,"
"Heavyweight," "Anti-Fat," and the like.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 06:36:38 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 01:36:38 EST
Subject: Future (1861); Fool me once (1896); Conpoy (dried scallops)
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.013638.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FUTURE AIN'T WHAT IT USED TO BE
..
Ben Zimmer writes:
...
Earlier cites have "is not" or "isn't" instead of "ain't":

Los  Angeles Times, Nov 3, 1963, p. M5
Today's generation of collegians is an  intense, serious group and they
realize far more than their elders that the  "future is not what it used to
be," he [sc. Dr. Abram L. Sacher] said.
...
...
On 6 April 2004, I posted "Future not what used to be (1961); No future in
time travel (1987)."  No one remembers?
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
FOOL ME ONCE, SHAME ONE YOU; FOOL ME TWICE, SHAME ON ME
...
I can't believe I haven't discussed this. I don't know what Fred has, if
anything.
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
_SAN  DIEGO COUNTY.; Ben Butterworth's Great Speech Before Four Thousand
People. SAN  DIEGO BREVITIES. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=325525152&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110749692
1&clientId=65882)
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current  File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 8, 1896. p.
13 (1 page) :
Now the question is, whether we shall let the same party fool us twice. If  a
man fools me once, it's his fault; and if he fools me twice it's my  fault.
...
_DEVERY'S  DICTIONARY.; Recent Contributions to Picturesque English -- The
Phrase Factory  of the Ninth District -- Grinding Out Epigrams That Stick -- A
Rich Mine of New  York Wit and Slang -- Typical Thoughts of a "Tough." _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=118478542&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=P
ROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107497165&clientId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current. Sep 7, 1902. p. 33 (1 page)  :
If you want to see the real people of this town come over on Double Fifth
Avenue--that's what I call Tenth Avenue.
(...)
I learned that if you wanted a thing done, do it yourself, and then you  have
got next to the right man.
(...)
If you fool me once that's your fault. If you fool me twice that's my  fault.
(...)
No flies get into a closed mouth. See?
...
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
CONPOY
...
CONPOY--1,050 Google hits, 27 Google Groups hits
...
"Compoy" is discussed in this week's Village Voice. It's not in the OED and
not in William Grimes's EATING YOUR WORDS. "Conpoy" is mentioned in the Asia
Society's Asian food glossary.
...
...
_http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0505,sietsema,60642,15.html_
(http://www.villagevoice.com/nyclife/0505,sietsema,60642,15.html)
...
Pumpkin stuffed with short ribs ($35) elicited oohs and aahs from my table
of lifelong Chinatown devotees, who have seen regional styles come and go in
this venerable immigrant neighborhood. Over the last decade, they've  su
ccessively feasted on Sichuan, Hunan, Chiu Chou, Shanghai, Fujianese,  Taiwanese,
Vietnamese, Hong Kong, and Malaysian fare, and now it was time to  come home to
the clean-tasting pleasures of Cantonese. Chinatown's oldest  cooking style
offers soups so thin and flavorful, you're tempted to gang several  up in a
single meal; ducks with skin as crisp as the crack of a whip; noodles  and fried
rice in dozens of permutations; bright-green vegetables smirched with  salty
oyster sauce; and seafood choices that range from local clams and flounder  to
such expensive imported exotica as shark's fin, abalone, and conpoy (dried
scallops).
...
...
_http://www.asiafood.org/glossary_2.cfm?wordid=2527_
(http://www.asiafood.org/glossary_2.cfm?wordid=2527)
...

Conpoy



Pinyin for gan bei, the Chinese name for a type of scallop. These very
expensive molluscs are cut from a type of sea scallop, dried and sold in Chinese
herbal shops. They require long soaking and steaming before they are ready to
be  eaten. A humble congee is elevated by adding 2-3 dried 'scallops' which
improves  the flavour no end.
Purchasing and storing: The large ones have better flavour. Purchase  from a
shop which has good turnover. They will keep indefinitely in an airtight
glass jar, but you don't want to buy any which are too ancient.
Preparation: Soak 4 dried scallops in enough warm water to cover and  steam
30 minutes or until soft. Pull apart into shreds, add to 2 cups cooked  rice
and 4 cups chicken stock together with the soaking liquid, and simmer with  4
slices fresh ginger until the rice becomes a porridge. Discard ginger. Stir in
a few drops of sesame oil, season congee with salt and white pepper, and serve
 hot, sprinkled with chopped spring onions (scallions). Serves 4.

...
...
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
...
_Sha Cha Jiang - Chinese Royal BBQ Sauce_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.fan.jai-maharaj/browse_frm/thread/b46668447e5cc68/94ef2f9146cf5cdd?q=conp
oy&_done=/groups?q=conpoy&start=10&scoring=d&hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&&_doneTit
le=Back+to+Search&&d#94ef2f9146cf5cdd)
... Sancho (Japanese lemon-pepper, kinda) 5 pieces amaska (Asian
sweet-grass) 1 Tbs
dried shrimp -- soaked until soft 2-3 dried scallops  (conpoy) -- soaked
until ...
_alt.fan.jai-maharaj_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.fan.jai-maharaj)  -  Mar 21 1997, 9:15 pm by pier - 1 message - 1 author
...
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC
...
WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON WEDNESDAY?--McCormick and  Schmick's Seafood
Restaurant, 1285 Avenue of the Americas at 53nd Street. This  chain restaurant
finally reached New York City a few months ago. I think it's  perfectly fine, an
upscale Red Lobster.
...
WHERE DI DBARRY POPIK EAT ON THURSDAY?--Teng's  Pavilion, West 55th Street
between Fifth and Sixth Avenues. About average on  this block of interesting
restaurants.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 07:16:58 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 02:16:58 EST
Subject: "Fool me once" (1896, 1898 and Star Trek)
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.021658.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Could "fool me once..." be a political phrase. from 1896?...I get on my
knees and pray we don't get fooled again. (WHO said that?)
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_Logan  Remembered.; Unlimited Enthusiasm. Sickles' Old-Fashioned Democracy.
Corporal  Tanner's Humor. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=428780311&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110749952
6&clientId=65882)
Chicago Daily Tribune  (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Oct 9, 1896. p. 4 (1 page)
...
A man can fool me once, but he can't fool me the second time.
...
...
_Other  23 -- No Title_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=422983081&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107499765&c
lientId=65882)
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963).  Chicago, Ill.: Oct 2, 1898. p. 32 (1
page)
...
When a man fools me once he won't ever have the chance to do it  again.
...
...
...
(GOOGLE)
...
_http://www.useful-information.info/quotations/cute_quotes.html_
(http://www.useful-information.info/quotations/cute_quotes.html)
...
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, prepare to die. - Klingon Proverb,
Star Trek


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 07:23:20 2005
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 02:23:20 EST
Subject: The stink/The stank
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.022320.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Double-entendre?  No.  I can't even think of one, in fact.  It's definitely a
single entendre.

-doug

In a message dated 1/21/2005 8:52:59 AM Central Standard Time,
wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes:
Is there a double-entendre in there for you, doug? For me there is.

-Wilson

On Jan 21, 2005, at 2:02 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Anecdote Alert: "Stank" has been my body-odor noun of choice at least
> since
> high school.
>
> -doug
>
> -dsb
> Douglas S. Bigham
> Department of Linguistics
> University of Texas - Austin
> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html
>

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 07:31:25 2005
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 02:31:25 EST
Subject: indenting paragraphs
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.023125.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In sophomore English in high school we were TAUGHT that you either indented
or double (or quadruple if the whole paper was double spaced) spaced between
paragraphs.

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 07:42:05 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 02:42:05 EST
Subject: "Ownership Society"
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.024205.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(GOOGLE NEWS)
_State of the union_
(http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/world_news/2005/02/02/state_of_the_union.html)
Guardian, UK -  <NOBR>Feb 2,
... Bush has coined the  phrase "ownership society" to frame the debate,
presenting the reforms as a way  of giving Americans more control over their own
fate. ...
...
...
Fred should include a Bush "ownership society" quote here. There  are mostly
bad hits before that, but I haven't looked at all the  databases.
...
...
(GOOGLE GROUPS)
...
_Another Bush Home Run_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.politics.democrats.d/browse_frm/thread/de293f67b9bba683/78e465626ca7cdce?q="ownership+socie
ty"&_done=/groups?as_q=&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=ownership+soci
ety&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&a
s_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=3&as_maxm=2&as_maxy=2003&safe=off&&_do
neTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#78e465626ca7cdce)
... I  want America to be an ownership society, a  society where a life of
work becomes
a retirement of independence." He also  said that a "generation of wealth ...

_alt.politics.democrats.d_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.politics.democrats.d)  - Mar 8 2002, 8:26 pm by Dana - 6 messages - 5  authors
...
_Best of Neutopia_
(http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.cyberspace/browse_frm/thread/2141424b0de220d4/c2f5b57676b81f83?q="ownership+society"&_done=/grou
ps?as_q=&num=100&scoring=d&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&as_epq=ownership+society&as_oq=&as_e
q=&as_ugroup=&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b&as_mind=1&as_min
m=1&as_miny=1981&as_maxd=3&as_maxm=2&as_maxy=2
003&safe=off&&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#c2f5b57676b81f83)
... To do this, we  must think beyond the ownership society, to one where  our
collective mythos allows us the freedom to self-actualize.  ...
_alt.cyberspace_ (http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.cyberspace)  - Dec
18 1997, 1:32 pm by Doctress Neutopia - 1 message - 1 author
...
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
     _Post Standard _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2iYfV7N+C2qfIeN6MWSgMej+yyzmx9WB10IF+CsZYmrz)  Wednesday,
December 24, 2003 _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+ownership+society)  _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+ownership+society)
...of Onondaga County. Bush  sells OWNERSHIP SOCIETY There would be no.....he
is talking  about what he calls the OWNERSHIP SOCIETY. This is a bundle  of..

...
_Post Standard _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2ng5EdsWvp4xzV1+7dgm14AJ8O04uNk1K0IF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday, September
02, 2004 _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+ownership+society)  _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+ownership+society)
...Bush second-term agenda  will be the "OWNERSHIP SOCIETY" he has been
pitching.....Bush said his goal is "to promote an OWNERSHIP  SOCIETY in America."
"That's..
...
...
...

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) ("ownership society")
...
_SOUTHERN  CALIFORNIA NEWS; PASADENA. ORGANIZATION OF THE SOCIAL UNIVERSITY.
A Work Begun  in Pasadena by Which the Coming of the Millennium is to Be
Hastened--Sunday  Outings--City Delinquent Tax List. SUNDAY OUTINGS. LYCEUM LEAGUE.
DELINQUENT TAX  LIST. PASADENA BREVITIES. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=325663922&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName
=HNP&TS=1107502111&clientId=65882)
Los Angeles Times  (1886. Jan 18, 1897. p. 9 (1 page)
...
_Display  Ad 11 -- No Title_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=100549869&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107502
111&clientId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current  file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 26, 1912. p. 7 (1
page)
...
_Ireland,  Ireland, Green and Sad"; Padraic Colum Evokes the Soul of Erin in
a Volume of  Sketches Marked by Fine Understanding THE ROAD ROUND IRELAND. By
Padraic Colum.  492 pp. New York: The Macmillan Company. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=98514319&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&
RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107502111&clientId=65882)
By HERBERT  S. GORMAN. New York Times (1857-Current file).  New York, N.Y.:
Oct 3, 1926. p. BR6 (1 page)
...
_Britain  Proposes $280,000,000 Program for Housing_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=90540667&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=3
09&VName=HNP&TS=1107502111&clientId=65882)
By CLYDE H.  FARNSWORTH Special to The New York Times. New York Times
(1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: May 29, 1963. p. 10 (1 page)
...
_Allende's  First 100 Days: The Socialism Is Low Key; Allende Regime's First
Hundred Days:  The Socialism Is Low Key _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=83205207&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP
&TS=1107502111&clientId=65882)
By JUAN de ONISSpecial to  The New York Times. New York Times (1857-Current
file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 15, 1971. p. 1 (2 pages)
...
_New  Kids Making More Enemies Than Friends; NOTEBOOK _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=5&did=117265261&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&R
QT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107502111&clientId=65882)
By  MURRAY CHASS. New York Times (1857-Current file).  New York, N.Y.: Dec 7,
1997. p. SP5 (1 page)


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 07:57:26 2005
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 02:57:26 EST
Subject: Numbers for words (was Teen Lingo Site)
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.025726.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wow.  I really wish that site had cites.  The number code myth for 8-ball, as
I know it, would get me neither OE800 or an eigth of an ounce.  I'd get some
speed/coke/rat poison mixture.  Like really low grade crystal meth or
something.

Also, IMHO, Van Halen was the last of the metal bands (before Metalica sold
out), were they not?  Allmusic.com lists them as: "hard rock, pop/rock, heavy
metal, arena rock, album rock, pop-metal".  But that's not the point.  The
rumor about 5150 as I remember it was that it was penal code for "sex with
animals" or maybe "death by sex" or something like that.  Definitely sexual, though.



In a message dated 2/2/2005 7:46:29 AM Central Standard Time,
gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes:
On Feb 2, 2005, at 06:59, Ron Silliman wrote:
>  Thus a heavy metal band some years back had an album (in
> pre-CD days) called 5150

I would hardly call Van Halen a heavy metal band. Maybe not even metal.
How about just rock? Loud rock? Hair band? Hair band formerly fronted
by a guy who's now a balding EMT?

Also, nitpick central, but in 1986 53 million CD players were sold in
the US (according to this page:
<http://www.oneoffcd.com/info/historycd.cfm>).

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 08:16:00 2005
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 03:16:00 EST
Subject: n-heads
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.031600.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"The Herb Book" lists "Kansas niggerhead" as a common name for echinacea.

"The Herb Book", John Lust.  1974.  Bantam Books. p. 177.  I've got a newer
edition with the same entry, but I can't find it at the moment.

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb  4 08:18:41 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 03:18:41 -0500
Subject: "Prediction is difficult, especially about the future"
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.031841.0500.>

Speaking of incongruous quotations about the future, the databases have
dozens of cites since at least 1980 for "Prediction is difficult,
especially about the future" (or some variation thereof).  Attribution is
awarded to the usual suspects, from Mark Twain to Yogi Berra to an
anonymous Chinese proverb-maker, but the physicist Niels Bohr usually gets
the credit.  It also gets attributed to Bohr's Danish compatriots, Piet
Hein and Robert Storm Petersen.  This post from Ole Nielsby on
soc.culture.nordic looks authoritative:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/soc.culture.nordic/msg/864c4d82e5d91bff

        Aron Felix Gurski <agur... at sn.no> wrote:
        >Jon Haugsand wrote:
        >>
        >> Who said "Prediction is difficult, especially of the future"?
        >> (Or "Det er vanskelig at spaa, isaer om fremtiden".)
        >I don't know, but it *should* have been Piet Hein.

        The "Bevingede ord" ("Winged Words") dictionary of quotations
        (5th ed., GAD, 1979) says:

        ENGLISH: (xl by me)

        "Prediction is difficult - especially of the future" - is of
        unknown origin and certainly not by Storm Petersen, to whom it
        is always accredited. The phrase possibly occurred as a pun in
        the danish parlament 1935-39; it is quoted as such in the 4th
        book of memoirs by K.K. Steincke [social democrat MP and
        minister], *Goodbye and thanks*, p227; 1948, which covers
        aforementioned period of time. The originator was queried in
        public, but nobody seemed to know him. - On inquiry, Steincke
        (1880-1963) stated that he did not remember who it was.

        DANISH:
        "Det er sv?rt at sp? - is?r om fremtiden" - er af ukendt
        oprindelse og i hvert fald ikke af Storm Petersen, som altid
        f?r skyld for s?tningen. Den er muligvis forefaldet som en
        sprogblomst i Folketinget 1935-39, gengives i hvert fald som
        s?dan i K.K. Steincke's fjerde erindringsbog *Farvel og tak*,
        227; 1948, som omfatter n?vnte tidsrum. Ophavsmanden har
        v?ret offentligt efterlyst, men ingen synes at kende ham. -
        Steincke (1880-1963) har p? foresp?rgsel oplyst, at han ikke
        huskede hvem det var.


-- Ben Zimmer


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 08:22:46 2005
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 03:22:46 EST
Subject: Groundhog Day as cinenym
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.032246.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Heather" was a popular (more or less) euphemism for bitch for a while (and
maybe still is).  From the movie "Heathers" I always supposed.

>From IMDB: Plot Summary for Heathers (1989)

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 08:34:05 2005
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 03:34:05 EST
Subject: California vowels
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.033405.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yeah, I've heard this.  I use this pronunciation sometimes.  It feels like
I'm quoting something.  Was there any kind of nasal-y thing (or even a breathy
thing) at the beginning?  It feels like, for me, that's more common with an
@-a  final vowel thing.  Yeah... I'm definitely "quoting" something with this...
just not sure what. I'll check with some friends about this.

-doug

In a message dated 2/2/2005 4:40:56 PM Central Standard Time,
flanigan at OHIOU.EDU writes:
A follow-up to my "okay" query:
Today a grad student responded to something I said with [ok@]--with fairly
balanced stress on the two syllables in this case.  It might have even been
closer to [oka].  But he's from Cleveland!  Which makes me wonder if this
is a kind of "underground" young persons' adoption, spread from
wherever?  He's 24-ish, very hip, etc.  Has anyone else heard this?

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From Jerryekane at AOL.COM  Fri Feb  4 08:43:24 2005
From: Jerryekane at AOL.COM (Jerry E Kane)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 03:43:24 EST
Subject: Advertising Slogans
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.034324.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 A few favorites.



Line:   "A little dab'll do ya."
Brand:  Brylcreem
Agency: Kenyon & Eckhardt
Year:   1949


Line:   "I'd walk a mile for a Camel."
Brand:  Camel
Agency: N W Ayer
Year:   1921




Line:   "M'm! M'm! Good!"
Brand:  Campbell's Soup
Agency: BBDO
Year:   1935


Line:   "The pause that refreshes."
Brand:  Coca-Cola
Agency:
Year:   1929


Line:   "Look, Ma, no cavities!"
Brand:  Crest
Agency: Benton & Bowles
Year:   1958



Line:   "Have it your way."
Brand:  Burger King
Agency: BBDO
Year:   1973


Line:   "Don't leave home without it."
Brand:  American Express
Agency: Ogilvy & Mather
Year:   1975

Line:   "You're in good hands with Allstate."
Brand:  Allstate
Agency: Leo Burnett
Year:   1956


Line:   "The milk chocolate melts in your mouth, not in your hand."
Brand:  M&Ms
Agency: Ted Bates
Year:   1954


Line:   "Good to the last drop."
Brand:  Maxwell House
Agency:
Year:   1915


Line:   "Got Milk?"
Brand:  Milk
Agency: Goodby, Silverstein & Partners
Year:   1993


Line:   "When it rains, it pours!"
Brand:  Morton Salt
Agency:
Year:   1911


Line:   "Snap! Crackle! Pop!"
Brand:  Kellogg's Rice Krispies
Agency: J Walter Thompson
Year:   1932


For more:




The Advertising Slogan Hall of Fame
http://www.adslogans.co.uk/hof/


Jerry E Kane
Los Angeles, CA


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb  4 14:01:34 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 06:01:34 -0800
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.060134.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Scumbag" comes close:

"Isn't he the scuzzcrack who fired you from Yearbook?"..."You fired me, remember? Because you're a scuzzcrack!"

JL
Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is the meaning of "scuzzcrack"? It's not as obvious as that of
"pimpmobile."

-Wilson

On Feb 3, 2005, at 10:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The possibility that Wilson may be the inglorious Milton who coined
> "pimpmobile" reminds me that back on Oct. 22 I reported two
> occurrences of the word "scuzzcrack" on CBS's "Joan of Arcadia" that
> evening, a word which had not appeared on the Net or anywhere else
> that I was aware of.
>
> Despite its simultaneous reception in millions of American homes,
> there is still no evidence of wider usage more than 90 days later.
>
> So if Wilson set "pimpmobile" afloat in 1963 without the aid of mass
> media, we reasonably might not expect it to surface till sometime in
> the mid 22nd century.
>
> A quick Google check uncovers about one quarter million examples of
> "pimpmobile" on the Web alone. I am sorry to report, therefore, that
> any claim in favor of Wilson's unique ownership of this word for
> copyright, trademark, or servicemark purposes is likely to be
> staunchly contested.
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:38 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Thanks, Wilson. The military sense must be fairly obscure, since I
>> just discovered it and it seems to go back to the '50s among Morse
>> operators. Pretty expressive, though.
>>
>> As for "pimpmobile," it seems to have taken a full decade for your
>> creation to have reached the print media.
>>
>> JL
>
> You know what gives me the jaws (there's a bit in HDAS about this use
> of "jaws"; can't recall at the moment whether it has this particular
> version) about "pimpmobile"? There's simply no way to find out whether
> I'm really *the* source. It's such an obvious coinage that any number
> of other people could have come up with it any number of times. It's
> even possible that the first person to use the word in print coined it
> independently. Sigh! No 15 minutes of fame for me.
>
> -Wilson
>
>
>> Wilson Gray wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> When I was a teenager in the 'Fifties in St. Louis,
>> "dittybop(p)er"/diddybop(per)" was a fairly mild insult that meant
>> something like "wannabe hipster." There was no verb form.
>>
>> Unfortunately, when I was in The War, I didn't have occasion to come
>> into contact with any Morse-code operators. More useless information:
>> when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it sounds like Morse code
>> to
>> the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the equipment available in
>> the
>> late '50's.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>>
>> On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>> Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> -
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Have discovered that besides their tedious old meanings, so familiar
>>> that I needn't bore you with them, these words have been used in the
>>> military with the senses "high-speed Morse operator" and "high-speed
>>> Morse receiver/transmitter." To "dittybop" also means "to transmit
>>> Morse code at high speed."
>>>
>>> Can any of my distinguished colleagues and consultants add anything
>>> to
>>> the above from personal experience ?
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Fri Feb  4 14:09:35 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:09:35 -0600
Subject: Tenure Quote
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.080935.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A bit off topic, but we do talk about quotations here..

Does anyone know the full text and/or who said it when, of the quote
that says something like this:  "In higher education, we only get all
worked up about tenure (or something like that) because it means so little"

That's a very bad paraphrase of it, but the gist of the quote is that
things that college profs get all wound up about are things which in the
scheme of things, don't make a lot of difference.

Sorry for the vagueness.  I tried searching for quotes on tenure and
came up with nothing that worked.

Thanks!

Patti Kurtz
Minot State University
--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb  4 14:24:18 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 06:24:18 -0800
Subject: Numbers for words (was Teen Lingo Site)
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.062418.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DSB's understanding of "eightball" (almost certainly authentic) seems to have been influenced by "behind the eightball." As "1/8 ounce" it's been around for nearly a decade, likewise as "Olde English 800."  The Usenet groups show exx. of each.

JL

Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Douglas Bigham
Subject: Re: Numbers for words (was Teen Lingo Site)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow. I really wish that site had cites. The number code myth for 8-ball, as
I know it, would get me neither OE800 or an eigth of an ounce. I'd get some
speed/coke/rat poison mixture. Like really low grade crystal meth or
something.

Also, IMHO, Van Halen was the last of the metal bands (before Metalica sold
out), were they not? Allmusic.com lists them as: "hard rock, pop/rock, heavy
metal, arena rock, album rock, pop-metal". But that's not the point. The
rumor about 5150 as I remember it was that it was penal code for "sex with
animals" or maybe "death by sex" or something like that. Definitely sexual, though.



In a message dated 2/2/2005 7:46:29 AM Central Standard Time,
gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG writes:
On Feb 2, 2005, at 06:59, Ron Silliman wrote:
> Thus a heavy metal band some years back had an album (in
> pre-CD days) called 5150

I would hardly call Van Halen a heavy metal band. Maybe not even metal.
How about just rock? Loud rock? Hair band? Hair band formerly fronted
by a guy who's now a balding EMT?

Also, nitpick central, but in 1986 53 million CD players were sold in
the US (according to this page:
).

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb  4 14:27:02 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 06:27:02 -0800
Subject: Groundhog Day as cinenym
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.062702.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Still in use with the high-school crowd.

JL

Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Douglas Bigham
Subject: Re: Groundhog Day as cinenym
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Heather" was a popular (more or less) euphemism for bitch for a while (and
maybe still is). From the movie "Heathers" I always supposed.

>From IMDB: Plot Summary for Heathers (1989)

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


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From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Feb  4 14:32:34 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:32:34 -0500
Subject: "Future Ain't What It Used to Be"
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.093234.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        A large number of web sites attribute this, without further citation, to Paul Valery, the French writer who died in 1945.  The quotation is often given as "The trouble with our times is that the future is not what it used to be."  Presumably the original, if it was indeed by Valery, was in French.

        There are several books entitled, or whose titles include the words, "The Future Is Not What It Used To Be."  It might be worth checking to see if any of them give better citations of the source quotation.

John Baker


From gingi at POBOX.COM  Fri Feb  4 14:43:00 2005
From: gingi at POBOX.COM (Rachel Sommer)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:43:00 -0500
Subject: disposable garbage bags
In-Reply-To: <20050202162204.7F68610A5C7@lime.pobox.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.094300.0500.>

As the person who forwarded it to Mark, I should point out that the person
who found the "disposable garbage bags" lives in India, in a major
metropolis.

--
--<@
Rachel L.S. Sommer
http://www.gingicat.org
"If you scratch a cynic, you find a disappointed idealist."
                               --George Carlin


From dave at WILTON.NET  Fri Feb  4 15:43:20 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 07:43:20 -0800
Subject: "Fool me once" (1896, 1898 and Star Trek)
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.074320.0800.>

>http://www.useful-information.info/quotations/cute_quotes.html_
>Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, prepare to die. - Klingon
Proverb,
>Star Trek

I don't believe that Klingon proverb is from the television series. It may
be from one of the Star Trek novels.

The quote in the original series was:

SCOTTY: "There's an old, old saying on Earth, Mr. Sulu. Fool me once, shame
on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

CHEKOV: "I know this saying. It was invented in Russia."

Episode "Friday's Child, air date 1 Dec 1967.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Feb  4 15:49:47 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:49:47 -0500
Subject: Nothing to declare; Rotten tangerine (1959)...
In-Reply-To: <20050204050052.E1AF8B24F7@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.104947.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry writes:
   >>>>>
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Daily Intelligencer  Monday, November 22, 1982 Doylestown, Pennsylvania
...ruler and In turn being beaned with a ROTTEN TANGERINE. Another bit of..
Pg. 20, col. 3:
Remember that little ditty about "I hate Bosco. Bosco's bad for me. Mommy
put it in my milk to try and poison me. I fooled Mommy. I put it in her tea,
and now there is no mommy to try and poison me."
(...)
 <<<<<

Ah yes, I remember it well. But the version I remember hews a little more
closely to the words of the commercial that it parodies:

I hate Bosco, it's full of TNT.
Mama put it in my milk to try and poison me.
But I fooled mama, I put it in her tea,
And now she's 6 feet under, wishing she was me.

As I recall, the original first two lines are "I love Bosco, it's rich and
chocolatey. / Mama put it in my milk for extra energy."

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Feb  4 15:52:13 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:52:13 -0500
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <20050204050052.E1AF8B24F7@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.105213.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray writes:
   >>>>>
 More useless information:
when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it sounds like Morse code to
the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the equipment available in the
late '50's.
 <<<<<

But extremely fast and regular, distinctively so I think.

-- Mark (ex-WV2PBR, circa 1964)
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Feb  4 16:08:33 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 10:08:33 -0600
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.100833.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think, that rather than saying he owned the word "pimpmobile", he was
saying he _owned_ a pimpmobile.  My mental picture of Wilson is now one
of the "Huggy Bear"/Antonio Fargas sort, or maybe the "gentleman of
leisure" played by Garret Morris in the SNL sketch, "Fred Garvin, Male
Prostitute".

Wilson is truly a renaissance man.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:26 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
>
>I am sorry to
> report, therefore, that any claim in favor of Wilson's unique
> ownership of this word for copyright, trademark, or
> servicemark purposes is likely to be staunchly contested.
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb  4 16:43:58 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:43:58 -0800
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.084358.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No, no, no. I imagine Wilson merely disparaging someone else's pimpmobile. I imagine the '64s were more conservative than later models, though.

JL

"Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think, that rather than saying he owned the word "pimpmobile", he was
saying he _owned_ a pimpmobile. My mental picture of Wilson is now one
of the "Huggy Bear"/Antonio Fargas sort, or maybe the "gentleman of
leisure" played by Garret Morris in the SNL sketch, "Fred Garvin, Male
Prostitute".

Wilson is truly a renaissance man.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter
> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:26 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
>
>I am sorry to
> report, therefore, that any claim in favor of Wilson's unique
> ownership of this word for copyright, trademark, or
> servicemark purposes is likely to be staunchly contested.
>


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From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Feb  4 16:53:23 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 11:53:23 -0500
Subject: Dialectic or dialectal?
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.115323.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A recent issue of the /Anderson Valley Advertiser/ quotes at length from an
entry in RHHDAS (on the derivation of "honky") which uses "dialectic" where
I would have expected "dialectal."  Is this standard RHHDAS usage, or
perhaps a typo or misquote?
A. Murie


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb  4 17:05:36 2005
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:05:36 -0800
Subject: BEI MIR BIST DU SCHON
In-Reply-To: <l03130303be28a4809cbd@[12.107.141.162]>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.090536.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've got a Bei Mir Twist Du Schon album at home (real
vinyl, long player). I picked it up for a couple of
bucks at a garage sale or something. Lots of Yiddish
twist songs.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
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From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Feb  4 17:04:17 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 09:04:17 -0800
Subject: Dialectic or dialectal?
In-Reply-To: <l03130300be2957108c83@[12.107.141.162]>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.090417.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sounds like the Advertiser may be engaging in a little dialectal
materialism.

--On Friday, February 4, 2005 11:53 AM -0500 sagehen
<sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:

> A recent issue of the /Anderson Valley Advertiser/ quotes at length from
> an entry in RHHDAS (on the derivation of "honky") which uses "dialectic"
> where I would have expected "dialectal."  Is this standard RHHDAS usage,
> or perhaps a typo or misquote?
> A. Murie



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Feb  4 17:47:19 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 12:47:19 -0500
Subject: Dialectic or dialectal?
In-Reply-To: <l03130300be2957108c83@[12.107.141.162]>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.124719.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Feb 04, 2005 at 11:53:23AM -0500, sagehen wrote:
> A recent issue of the /Anderson Valley Advertiser/ quotes at length from an
> entry in RHHDAS (on the derivation of "honky") which uses "dialectic" where
> I would have expected "dialectal."  Is this standard RHHDAS usage, or
> perhaps a typo or misquote?

It's a mis-expansion (at least, I assume, without having seen the AVA
article).

At the _honky_ entry, HDAS uses "dial.", which is explained in
the Abbreviations as "dialect(al)".

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Feb  4 17:58:35 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 12:58:35 -0500
Subject: Dialectic or dialectal?
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1107507857@[10.218.201.228]>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.125835.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Sounds like the Advertiser may be engaging in a little dialectal
>materialism.
>
>--On Friday, February 4, 2005 11:53 AM -0500 sagehen
><sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:
>
>> A recent issue of the /Anderson Valley Advertiser/ quotes at length from
>> an entry in RHHDAS (on the derivation of "honky") which uses "dialectic"
>> where I would have expected "dialectal."  Is this standard RHHDAS usage,
>> or perhaps a typo or misquote?
>> A. Murie

>Peter A. McGraw
~~~~~~~~~~
As when standard form meets dialectal form and produces blend(!) that
becomes the new standard?
AM

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb  4 18:00:31 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 13:00:31 -0500
Subject: Tenure Quote
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.130031.0500.>

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 08:09:35 -0600, Patti J. Kurtz <kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET>
wrote:

>A bit off topic, but we do talk about quotations here..
>
>Does anyone know the full text and/or who said it when, of the quote
>that says something like this:  "In higher education, we only get all
>worked up about tenure (or something like that) because it means so little"
>
>That's a very bad paraphrase of it, but the gist of the quote is that
>things that college profs get all wound up about are things which in the
>scheme of things, don't make a lot of difference.
>
>Sorry for the vagueness.  I tried searching for quotes on tenure and
>came up with nothing that worked.

This sounds like a variation of the old quote, "The politics of the
university are so intense because the stakes are so low."  Barry Popik has
discussed this quote here before:
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0409D&L=ads-l&P=R18842

The quote gets attributed to many sources, but the originator was
apparently Wallace S. Sayre, professor of political science at Columbia.
The earliest attribution available on JSTOR is from _PS_ (Autumn 1977), p.
511, in a letter to the editor from Sayre's collaborator Herbert Kaufman.
Kaufman was correcting the attribution given in a recent _New Republic_
editorial (which said it was from Kissinger). According to Kaufman, this
is one of "Sayre's Laws", and "a more general statement of it appeared,
correctly  attributed, in Charles Issawi, _Issawi's Laws of Social Motion_
(Hawthorn, 1973), p. 178."  Kaufman said that this particular "Sayre's
Law" had been around for decades and that he himself had heard it directly
from Sayre a quarter century earlier.

Fred Shapiro turned up Issawi's formulation of Sayre's Law: "In any
dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of
the stakes at issue -- that is why academic politics are so bitter." See:
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0409E&L=ads-l&P=R3903

Another one of Sayre's Laws is recorded on Barry Popik's website: "The
mayors of New York come from nowhere and go nowhere."
http://www.barrypopik.com/article/256/sayres-law-mayors-of-ny-come-from-nowhere-and-go-nowhere


--Ben Zimmer


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Fri Feb  4 18:13:43 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 12:13:43 -0600
Subject: Tenure Quote
In-Reply-To: <200502041300.6734203b84535d@rly-nc03.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.121343.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, that's it exactly-- thanks!

Patti

bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU wrote:

>This sounds like a variation of the old quote, "The politics of the
>university are so intense because the stakes are so low."  Barry Popik has
>discussed this quote here before:
>http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0409D&L=ads-l&P=R18842
>
>
>

Dr. Patti J. Kurtz

Assistant Professor, English

Director of the Writing Center

Minot State University

Minot, ND 58707



Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that.



Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims
that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program?



Foster: But we are RIGHT!



Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb  4 21:09:36 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:09:36 -0500
Subject: 2 Nancy Astor Quotes
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F2062ACB88@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.160936.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is anyone willing to check ProQuest Historical Newspapers for the earliest
occurrences there for two Nancy Astor quotes:

One reason I don't drink is that I want to know when I am having a good
time.

The penalty of success is to be bored by people who snub you.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb  4 21:51:58 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:51:58 -0500
Subject: Fwd: question
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.165158.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

forwarded from the Yale Rabbi via a colleague,.  Anyone know?



larry
==============


The Rabbi, Jim Ponet, asks:

... explain if you will the structure "Not to worry."  Does it emulate
anything Yiddish.  Then there's "to kill for,"  "to die for."

It does follow a Hebrew structure arguable.  But I doubt that origin.

--- end forwarded text


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb  4 22:12:39 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 17:12:39 -0500
Subject: The Camel Walk*
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.171239.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jerrry E Kane quoted:

Line:   "I'd walk a mile for a Camel."
Brand:  Camel
Agency: N W Ayer
Year:   1921

To which I add:

"A smoker will walk a mile for *any* cigarette!"

Unfortunately, I no longer remember the source of this or even the
exact reading. Readers Digest? This Week? Some radio show? I read it or
heard it some time in the '40's.

In any case, as a recovering smokaholic with just a soupcon of
emphysema, I can attest to the truth of the addendum.

* The "camel walk" was a popular dance amongst the colored in the
'Forties.

-Wilson Gray


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb  4 22:56:25 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 17:56:25 -0500
Subject: 2 Nancy Astor Quotes
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.175625.0500.>

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 16:09:36 -0500, Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
wrote:
>
>The penalty of success is to be bored by people who snub you.

I don't see anything on Proquest for this one, but on Newspaperarchive
there are unattributed cites at least as far back as 1941 with this
wording: "The penalty of success is to be bored by the attentions of
people who formerly snubbed you" (e.g., _Charleroi Mail_ Pa., Jan. 30,
1941, p. 1). Various attributions turn up in the '50s and '60s -- Mary
Wilson Little is sometimes credited (e.g., in a Dec. 5, 1961 AP wire story
by Hal Boyle). Earl Wilson gave the quote at least a few times in his
syndicated column (with the wording: "...bored by the people who used to
snub you"), but he wasn't consistent with the attribution-- in a June 1,
1953 column he says it's from Charley Jones, while in a May 4, 1964 column
he says it's from Lady Astor (that's the earliest Lady Astor attribution I
came across).

--Ben Zimmer


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb  4 23:17:48 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 18:17:48 -0500
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <E1CwxoU-0006Hp-00@mx11.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.181748.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In addition to its other meanings, I know it as a synonym of "cunt,"
which, though occasionally used, doesn't have a lot of traction amongst
the bruz and cuz, for some random reason.

-Wilson

On Feb 4, 2005, at 2:23 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Double-entendre?  No.  I can't even think of one, in fact.  It's
> definitely a
> single entendre.
>
> -doug
>
> In a message dated 1/21/2005 8:52:59 AM Central Standard Time,
> wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes:
> Is there a double-entendre in there for you, doug? For me there is.
>
> -Wilson
>
> On Jan 21, 2005, at 2:02 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Anecdote Alert: "Stank" has been my body-odor noun of choice at least
>> since
>> high school.
>>
>> -doug
>>
>> -dsb
>> Douglas S. Bigham
>> Department of Linguistics
>> University of Texas - Austin
>> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html
>>
>
> -dsb
> Douglas S. Bigham
> Department of Linguistics
> University of Texas - Austin
> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb  4 23:25:08 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 18:25:08 -0500
Subject: question
In-Reply-To: <E1CxBMw-0005qA-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.182508.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, I've always considered "not to worry" to be an annoying Briticism.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 4, 2005, at 4:51 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Fwd: question
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> forwarded from the Yale Rabbi via a colleague,.  Anyone know?
>
>
>
> larry
> ==============
>
>
> The Rabbi, Jim Ponet, asks:
>
> ... explain if you will the structure "Not to worry."  Does it emulate
> anything Yiddish.  Then there's "to kill for,"  "to die for."
>
> It does follow a Hebrew structure arguable.  But I doubt that origin.
>
> --- end forwarded text
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Feb  5 00:44:42 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 19:44:42 -0500
Subject: Fwd: question
In-Reply-To: <p04320403be299b9588cb@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.194442.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>forwarded from the Yale Rabbi via a colleague,.  Anyone know?
>
>
>
>larry
>==============
>
>
>The Rabbi, Jim Ponet, asks:
>
>... explain if you will the structure "Not to worry."  Does it emulate
>anything Yiddish.  Then there's "to kill for,"  "to die for."

I don't know anything about Yiddish. But Yiddish is German, right? Hmmm,
but I don't know much about German either. Here's my naive notion anyway.

In German, IIRC, there is a conventional construction "[sein] zu [verb]" =
"be [verb]able" or so: e.g., "es ist zu fassen/glauben" (word-by-word
gloss: "it is to believe") means "it is believable" or "one might believe it".

Then presumably by analogy "it is to die for" = "one might die for it", "it
is to laugh" = "it is laughable", etc.

"Not to worry" might arise analogously, e.g., from something like "es ist
nicht zu bef?rchten" (gloss: "it is not to fear") = "it is not something to
fear", with the verb glossed as "worry [about]" instead of "fear" or with
the initial translation "not to fear" (which I have seen occasionally in
the same sense IIRC).

[Alternatively "not to worry" could be a contraction of something within
English like "I implore you not to worry".]

German scholars, please correct me if necessary.

-- Doug Wilson


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sat Feb  5 01:57:09 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 20:57:09 -0500
Subject: Fwd: question
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050204190840.02f860a0@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.205709.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>The Rabbi, Jim Ponet, asks:
>>
>>... explain if you will the structure "Not to worry."  Does it emulate
>>anything Yiddish.  Then there's "to kill for,"  "to die for."
~~~~~~~
"Not to worry" has a kind of breezy quality that suggests to me that it's
simply
a case of  lowering the imperative tone of "I'm telling you not to worry!"
No particular foreign influence.
"To kill for" & "to die for," OTOH, do have a kind of Yiddish or German
resonance, to my ear, at least.
A. Murie


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Feb  5 02:22:42 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 21:22:42 -0500
Subject: Fwd: question
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.212242.0500.>

On Fri, 4 Feb 2005 18:25:08 -0500, Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>
>On Feb 4, 2005, at 4:51 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>> forwarded from the Yale Rabbi via a colleague,.  Anyone know?
>> ==============
>> The Rabbi, Jim Ponet, asks:
>>
>> ... explain if you will the structure "Not to worry."  Does it emulate
>> anything Yiddish.  Then there's "to kill for,"  "to die for."
>>
>> It does follow a Hebrew structure arguable.  But I doubt that origin.
>>
>> --- end forwarded text
>
>FWIW, I've always considered "not to worry" to be an annoying Briticism.

The usage books agree that the expression originated in the UK.

-----
http://www.bartleby.com/68/38/4138.html
The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993.
<not to worry>
was originally a British English idiom, meaning "don't worry," "never
fear," but it's now beginning to appear in Conversational and Informal
American use.
-----

The OED3 draft entry for "not" has this note under sense 5a(c):

-----
(c) colloq. <not to -->: do not --.
Webster's Dict. Eng. Usage (1989) 670-1 noted the uncommonness of the
phrase <not to worry> in American English, and its disapproval by some
commentators, but U.S. examples are not uncommon from the later 1980s
onwards.
-----

Newspaperarchive finds scattered US usage in the '60s, e.g.:

-----
Lima News (Ohio), May 25, 1962, p. 20/2
"You're not here under arrest. You can leave when the hospital will
release you. Mrs. Barrett said she would look after your pets. Not to
worry."
[from the serialized version of _One for My Dame_ by Jack Webb]
-----
Salisbury Times (Md.), May 21, 1964, p. 6/2
Not to worry. Don't worry about anything. Go a-Maying. Like us.
-----

For the most part, early cites for "not to worry" appear in British or at
least European contexts.  (It probably entered Canadian English first.)


--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Feb  5 03:01:37 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 22:01:37 -0500
Subject: New techie term: crossbar latch
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.220137.0500.>

If the HP hype is to be believed, then "crossbar latch" should get early
consideration for "Word of the Decade"...

-----
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/2005/050201a.html
News Release
Who Needs Transistors? HP Scientists Create New Computing Breakthrough at
Molecular Scale
Research could send transistors the way of the vacuum tube
PALO ALTO, Calif., Feb. 1, 2005
In a paper published in today's Journal of Applied Physics, three members
of HP Labs' Quantum Science Research (QSR) group propose and demonstrate a
"crossbar latch," which provides the signal restoration and inversion
required for general computing without the need for transistors. The
technology could result in computers that are thousands of times more
powerful than those that exist today.
-----
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/01/technology/01nano.html
New York Times
Hewlett Reports Advance in Molecular-Scale Device
By JOHN MARKOFF
Published: February 1, 2005
SAN FRANCISCO, Jan. 31 - A group of Hewlett-Packard researchers will
report on Tuesday that they have created a molecular-scale alternative to
the transistor. The device could increase the viability of a new
generation of ultrasmall electronics that would one day be smaller than
what is possible with today's silicon-based technology.
In an article to be published Tuesday in The Journal of Applied Physics,
three researchers at the quantum science research group of Hewlett-Packard
Labs, based in Palo Alto, Calif., describe how they have designed a
"crossbar latch," making it possible to perform a type of logic operation
that is essential to the functions of a modern computer.
-----
http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=JAPIAU000097000003034301000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=Yes
Journal of Applied Physics -- 1 February 2005
J. Appl. Phys. 97, 034301  (2005) (5 pages)
The crossbar latch: Logic value storage, restoration, and inversion in
crossbar circuits
Philip J. Kuekes, Duncan R. Stewart, and R. Stanley Williams
Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, 1501 Page Mill Road, MS 1123, Palo Alto,
California 94304
(Received 9 June 2004; accepted 29 September 2004; published online 30
December 2004)
Programmable crossbar circuits are one key architecture proposed for
integrated nanoscale electronics. Emphasizing practicality of fabrication,
many scenarios advocate crossbar circuits based on two-terminal devices.
In this case, however, signal restoration and inversion remain critical
weaknesses. Restoration is essential before the degraded output of one
logic gate can drive the input of a subsequent logic gate. Inversion is
required to generate a complete logic family. Here we describe and
demonstrate a solution to both problems, the crossbar latch. This device
stores a logic value on a signal wire, enabling logic value restoration,
and inversion. In combination with resistor/diode logic gates, these
operations in principle enable universal computing for crossbar circuits,
and potentially, integrated nanoscale electronics.
-----

--Ben Zimmer


From funex79 at CHARTER.NET  Sat Feb  5 04:13:56 2005
From: funex79 at CHARTER.NET (Jerome Foster)
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 20:13:56 -0800
Subject: Fwd: question
Message-ID: <FRI.4.FEB.2005.201356.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Concerning the phrase "not to worry"...I believe it was popularized in the
work of a British playwright named Arthur Pinero, who was Jewish, though I
doubt that he spoke Yiddish as he was of Portugese descen from a family long
in England.

Jerome Foster
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2005 1:51 PM
Subject: Fwd: question


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Fwd: question
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> forwarded from the Yale Rabbi via a colleague,.  Anyone know?
>
>
>
> larry
> ==============
>
>
> The Rabbi, Jim Ponet, asks:
>
> ... explain if you will the structure "Not to worry."  Does it emulate
> anything Yiddish.  Then there's "to kill for,"  "to die for."
>
> It does follow a Hebrew structure arguable.  But I doubt that origin.
>
> --- end forwarded text
>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Feb  5 05:28:29 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 00:28:29 -0500
Subject: dooce(d)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.002829.0500.>

The New York Times, the Times of London, NPR, and the BBC all citing
UrbanDictionary.com?  What's the world coming to?

-----
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dooced
"dooced", Urban Dictionary ("Jennifer"), Feb. 26, 2004
Losing your job for something you wrote in your online blog, journal,
website, etc.
Did you hear Mary got fired yesterday for writing about Becky in her blog?
Yeah, she got dooced.
-----
http://shenuts.com/index.php?p=818#comment-2190
Sarcastic Journalist ("Shyla"), Apr. 16, 2004
I learned the other day that "dooce" is a new slang term for someone who
loses their job because of their blog/website. You've been dooced.
-----
http://regionbroad.wiredhub.org/archives/000356.php
Region Broad, "Dude got DOOCED", Oct. 15, 2004
He spoke his opinion about his workplace on a bbs, and some smacked ass at
his place of work ratted him out, that's why. In other words, the practice
of doocing? Alive and well in NWI.
-----
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/start.html?pg=7
Wired, "Jargon Watch", Nov. 2004
Dooced
Losing your job over something you wrote online. Named after Dooce.com, a
blog run by Web developer Heather Armstrong. Armstrong got canned after
anonymous critiques of her coworkers were linked to her.
-----
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4115073.stm
BBC News, Jan. 3, 2005
A new term has emerged as a result. According to UrbanDictionary.com, to
be "dooced" means "losing your job for something you wrote in your online
blog, journal, website, etc." ...
And more bloggers could be "dooce dodging" in 2005 as employers wake up to
the technology, warns legal expert Nick Lockett from hi-tech law firm DL
Legal.
-----
The Herald (Glasgow), Jan. 13, 2005, p. 15 (Nexis)
Gordon is the first case of dismissal for blogging in the UK, but will
almost certainly not be the last if American precedents are anything to go
by. Heather B Armstrong, a former web designer, was dismissed in 2002 for
the unforgiving analysis on www.dooce.com of her co-workers.
She contributed to the coining of the term "dooced", which describes
someone fired for blogging about their employer.
-----
The Times (London), Jan. 15, 2005, p. 32 (Nexis)
Mr Gordon's was the first publicised example of a British blogger being
"dooced".
According to the Urban Dictionary site, dooced means "losing your job for
something you wrote in your online blog, journal, website etc".
With dozens of blogs springing up in Britain every day, many work related,
doocing is a risk for online diarists.
The word was coined after a Los Angeles web designer, Heather Armstrong,
lost her job in 2002 after telling stories about workmates on her readable
Dooce blog. ...
The issue has its own campaign site, the Bloggers' Rights Blog, which
lists dozens of companies that have dooced staff and urges employers to
establish clear policies on blogging.
-----
National Public Radio, Day to Day, Jan. 19, 2005 (Nexis)
Armstrong has become a kind of poster child for people in her situation,
and has even given birth to a new term, 'dooced,' which
UrbanDictionary.com defines as losing your job for something you wrote on
your online blog, as in, 'Dude, I heard Janie got dooced last week.' At
least a dozen people have been 'dooced' in recent years, including several
journalists.
-----
San Francisco Chronicle, Jan. 24, 2005, p. C1 (Nexis)
"I was one of the first (bloggers) to be fired," said Armstrong, 29, who
lives in Salt Lake City and blogs at www.dooce.com. She said the action
even spawned a new slang term -- "dooced" -- to lose your job for
something you wrote in your online blog or Web site.
-----
New York Times, Jan. 30, 2005 (Style) p. 1 (Nexis)
After someone sent an unsigned, untraceable e-mail message about Ms.
Armstrong's blog to her company's board in 2002, she was promptly
dismissed, and "Dooced" entered Urbandictionary.com as a term for "Losing
your job for something you wrote in your online blog, journal, Web site,
etc."
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Feb  5 05:50:11 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 00:50:11 -0500
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <E1Cx5kn-0000IJ-00@mx07.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.005011.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What does "WV2PBR" stand for?

-Wilson

On Feb 4, 2005, at 10:52 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson Gray writes:
>>>>>>
>  More useless information:
> when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it sounds like Morse code to
> the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the equipment available in the
> late '50's.
>  <<<<<
>
> But extremely fast and regular, distinctively so I think.
>
> -- Mark (ex-WV2PBR, circa 1964)
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb  5 08:13:02 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 03:13:02 EST
Subject: Buttered Side (1841,
 1857); Gods send nuts (1860); Oxford Quotations
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.031302.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OXFORD DICTIONARY OF PROVERBS(1982, 1992, 1998,  2003)
...
I had bought an older edition and have it buried in my  apartment, so I
decided to buy the 2003 edition. It contains some of the  proverbs I've discussed,
with some results better and some worse. Sorry  for not citing it before.
...
Pg. 31: YOU CAN'T TELL A BOOK BY ITS COVER is from 1929.  We beat that.
...
Pg. 60: WHY BUY THE COW IF THE MILK IS SO CHEAP? is from  1659.
...
Pg. 74: DIFFERENT STROKES FOR DIFFERENT FOLKS is from  1973. We beat that.
...
Pg. 116: FOOL ME ONCE, SHAME ON ME is from 1611  ("deceive me once"). Sorry
for posting on this. Titelman didn't give a  date for it.
...
Pg. 119: THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH is from  1967. I had posted
that from about 30 years earlier.
...
Pg. 150: WHEN YOU ARE IN A HOLE, STOP DIGGING is from  1988. I had posted
1984.
...
Pg. 221: NO NAMES, NO PACK-DRILL is from 1923. I had  posted 1924.
...
Pg. 225: THERE'S NOWT SO QUEER AS FOLK is from 1905. I  posted 1872.
...
Pg. 237: IF YOU PAY PEANUTS, YOU GET MONKEYS is from  1966. I had posted 1968.
...
Pg. 278: IT'S A SIN TO STEAL A PIN is from 1875. I  posted 1841.
...
Pg. 337: A WOMAN, A DOG, AND A WALNUT TREE, THE MORE YOU  BEAT THEM, THE
BETTER THEY BE is from 1581. It's good to get additional  quotes, however, as the
walnut tree becomes a hickory tree.
...
Pg. 338: A WOMAN WITHOUT A MAN IS LIKE A FISH  WITHOUT A BICYCLE is a new
entry, dated from 1979. We all beat that  easily.
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
THE GODS SEND NUTS TO THOSE WHO HAVE NO  TEETH
...
Oxford cites 1929 American Speech for this. I don't know  what Fred has.
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_SUMMER  RESORTS.; LIFE AT SARATOGA AND NEWPORT. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=98875179&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309
&VName=HNP&TS=1107590540&clientId=65882)
>From  Our Own Correspondent.. New York Times  (1857-Current file). New York,
N.Y.: Aug 29, 1860. p. 2 (1 page)
...
But the Oriental adage that: "Heaven sends almonds to those who have  no
teeth," was verified in the disposal of that blanket.
...
...
-------------------------------------------------------------------
BUTTERED SIDE
...
Oxford has this proverb from 1867. It's like Murphy's  law--with two choices,
the worst outcome will result. Bread always falls  on the buttered side.
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARHIVE)
...
Tuesday, November 23, 1841 _Norwalk,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:norwalk+buttered+side+AND)  _Ohio_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+buttered+side+AND)
  _Huron Reflector _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wUP6BEk4rpmKID/6NLMW2vynnkNBVZv8E8crKPO4KeOd5XSGz6G6XQ==)

...
...not fall upon the And  always on the BUTTERED SIDE. My misfortunes are
many.....so  nicely with die but- ter of greasy SIDE into the dirt of despon-
and leave..
..

_Compiler _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2l8R0Uw+WhgZ844UMRqmSkAnyVnYmGViGw==)  Monday, October 26, 1857
_Gettysburg,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:gettysburg+buttered+side+AND)  _Pennsylvania_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+buttered+side+AND)      ...tell upun the floor, And
always on the BUTTERED SIDE For particulars see  result..
...
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
ASTOR QUOTES
...
...

     _Newark Advocate _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=NUCC4daB2aKKID/6NLMW2lPp6f8peiWooMLomvOZtCQRXo9KEVIjaw==)  Saturday, April 29,
1961 _Newark,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:newark+don)   _Ohio_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+don)
...I wish lo know when I am  having a GOOD TIME. Lady ASTOR. keeps life safe
buL.....been Quips Quotes The reason why I DON'T DRINK is  because..
...
     _Gettysburg Times _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=thiGuD36VKiKID/6NLMW2stPbckAGtnvxF2yQCjnj/sExD5VcLbMmw==)  Tuesday, December 24,
1996 _Gettysburg,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:gettysburg+don)  _Pennsylvania_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+don)      ...I want to know when I  am having a GOOD
TIME." Lady ASTOR "One cannot  think well.....trying Colette "One of the reasons
I DON'T  DRINK is that..


...
     _Reno Evening Gazette _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2moNhPjAsYlopc0Jc+KfWklHIfxXPbDZ6EIF+CsZYmrz)  Monday,
May 04, 1964 _Reno,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:reno+penalty+of+success+and+astor)  _Nevada_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nevada+penalty+of+success+and+astor)      ...together.
REMEMBERED QUOTE:  'The PENALTY OF SUCCESS is to be bored by.....people  who
used to snub you." Lady ASTOR. EARL'S PEARLS: All that  cooking..


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb  5 10:16:29 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 05:16:29 EST
Subject: "Watching grass grow" (Damon Runyon?)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.051629.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WATCHING GRASS GROW--12,000 Google hits, 3,330 Google Groups hits
...
I was just watching the Knicks game. It wasn't like watching grass  grow. It
was more like watching a train wreck. But let's discuss the  grass.
...
Not in OED? Not in HDAS? Not in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations? Does
Fred want an exact Runyon cite?
...
...

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS_

_This  Morning...; This Morning . . . _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=121326913&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP
&TS=1107596981&clientId=65882)
With Shirley  Povich. The Washington Post and Times Herald  (1954-1959).
Washington, D.C.: Sep 22, 1958. p. A14 (2 pages)
...
Page onr:
NEWPORT, R. I., Sept. 21--Damon Runyon's Guys and Dolls was merely  one of
America's legacies from that fine impressionist. He once wrote into  a ten-word
sentence a description of yacht racing that has gone ringing  down through the
years as the model of scorn for that esoteric sport with  its spinnakers,
liffs, jibs, jibes and complete reliance on windy  drafts.
...
Runyon was reporting his first America's Cup race. It was a switch  from his
world of the violence of the fight camps, the crash of the World  Series home
runs, the race track whirl of fast horses and whipping riders,  and the
body-assaults of football. To the slow moving yacht races he  reacted with
impatience. "Watching an America's Cup race," he wrote, "is  like watching grass grow."


...
...
...


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Feb  5 12:10:28 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 07:10:28 -0500
Subject: Congressional eggcorns: off-times, off-repeated
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.071028.0500.>

On his Talking Points Memo blog, Joshua Micah Marshall reprints a letter
he received from Rep. Sherry Boehlert (R-NY).  It begins:

    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/004681.php
    Enjoyed your clever and off-times amusing comments.

Marshall doesn't comment on Boehlert's use of "off-times" (he's more
concerned with Boehlert's position on Bush's Social Security plan).  But I
thought this was an interesting eggcorn from on high.

Surely "off-times" makes perfect sense as a pronunciation spelling for
"oft-times", simplifying the geminate /tt/ as is common for most American
speakers (MWCD marks the first /t/ as optional).

Semantically, however, the reanalysis is a bit more puzzling to me. I
would think that replacing the archaic/poetic "oft" element with the more
common "off" might alter the sense somewhat -- from 'frequently' to
'occasionally' or 'intermittently' (evoking not just the hiatal sense of
"off-time" but also "off-and-on", "on again, off again", etc.).

A Google search on <offtimes> doesn't really bear out my hunch, though
perhaps one could discern a subtle semantic shift going on:

-----
I offtimes did just that! ... Offtimes, Nannie read to us.
http://www.yerwoodcenter.org/images/Joyce%20Yerwood%20Letter%20to%20Sister%20NOSTALGIA.doc
-----
It appears that I don't write offtimes to you My Mollie, my dear girl.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/7305/head.htm -
-----
This is offtimes the fault of incorrectly using a DataReader which
requires manual connection handling.
http://www.error-bank.com/microsoft.public.dotnet.framework.adonet/74399_Thread.aspx
-----
Big Valley Aviation was started over 27 years ago to address the offtimes
specialized and unique maintenance and overhaul needs of regional
helicopters.
http://www.bigvalleyaviation.com/
-----
The God associated with youthfulness, he is offtimes conflated with Pryderi.
http://www.fatheroak.com/deities2.html
-----
The game sounds offtimes make you jump out of your chair, or drop your mouse.
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/ doom3/reader_review.html?id=1987015
-----

There are hundreds more examples for "off(-)times" with or without the
hyphen.  And it appears that "off-" is replacing "oft-" in other compounds
where no geminate /tt/ is involved, such as "oft-repeated" >
"off-repeated" or "oft-quoted" > "off-quoted".  Googling on <the
off-repeated> turns up 112 examples, and the first page has yet another
eggcorn from the halls of Congress...

-----
http://cantwell.senate.gov/news/releases/2002_03_20_cfr_final.html
Senator Russ Feingold (D-WI) credited Senator Cantwell for playing a
leadership role in passing the legislation. "One of our newest members,
Senator Maria Cantwell, also gave us important momentum when she made
campaign finance reform a central issue in her campaign and gave this bill
her strong support," Feingold said. "After her victory, the off-repeated
claim that no Senator has ever lost an election over this issue can no
longer be made."
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From jasonnorris at YAHOO.COM  Sat Feb  5 13:17:01 2005
From: jasonnorris at YAHOO.COM (Jason Norris)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 05:17:01 -0800
Subject: "Watching grass grow" (Damon Runyon?)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.051701.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I like that one. I had not heard it before. There are a couple of similar phrases I have heard.

"It's like watching mud dry."

or

"It's like watching paint dry."

Or sometimes, "I'd rather watch mud dry." Funny thing, the guy who said that was on vacation in Disney World. But then, he was a chaperone for a bunch of high school kids. Maybe even Disney was boring for him.

Jason


Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: "Watching grass grow" (Damon Runyon?)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WATCHING GRASS GROW--12,000 Google hits, 3,330 Google Groups hits
...
I was just watching the Knicks game. It wasn't like watching grass grow. It
was more like watching a train wreck. But let's discuss the grass.
...
Not in OED? Not in HDAS? Not in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations? Does
Fred want an exact Runyon cite?
...
...

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS_

_This Morning...; This Morning . . . _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=121326913&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP
&TS=1107596981&clientId=65882)
With Shirley Povich. The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959).
Washington, D.C.: Sep 22, 1958. p. A14 (2 pages)
...
Page onr:
NEWPORT, R. I., Sept. 21--Damon Runyon's Guys and Dolls was merely one of
America's legacies from that fine impressionist. He once wrote into a ten-word
sentence a description of yacht racing that has gone ringing down through the
years as the model of scorn for that esoteric sport with its spinnakers,
liffs, jibs, jibes and complete reliance on windy drafts.
...
Runyon was reporting his first America's Cup race. It was a switch from his
world of the violence of the fight camps, the crash of the World Series home
runs, the race track whirl of fast horses and whipping riders, and the
body-assaults of football. To the slow moving yacht races he reacted with
impatience. "Watching an America's Cup race," he wrote, "is like watching grass grow."


...
...
...


If we knew what we were doing,
it wouldn't be called research,
would it?

 -- Albert Einstein


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Feb  5 14:26:54 2005
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 09:26:54 EST
Subject: Heel-clicking
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.092654.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:41:43 -0500,  Wilson Gray
<wilson.gray at RCN.COM> writes:

>  I've never heard this term ["heel-clicking"] used in a military context,
Jim. So, feel
>  free to explain. But that reminds me. In the WWII anti-German
>  propaganda of my childhood, the marine-style "jarhead" haircut, the use
>  of a monocle, and clicking one's heels and bowing one's head when
>  shaking hands were all considered to be stereotypically German.

Your problem is that you are too PC, in that you are knee-jerkingly
classifying as stereotype what is actually a widespread piece of Western European
culture.  The Nazi Wermacht had a lot of non-verbal language, e.g. clicking heels,
that descends from the army of Frederick the Great.  But so does the US Army!
Why?  Because of a Prussian officer, Baron Friedrich William von Steuben, who
became Washington's drillmaster at Valley Forge.  Von Steuben trained
Washington's troops until they were as good, if not better, than the Recoats on the
battlefield.  The US Army has used descendants of von Steuben's Prussian drill
ever since.

Don't you remember that coming to Attention, or performing Right Face/Left
Face/About Face, involved an actual clicking together of the heels?

"Heel clicking" therefore is, in my experience at least, a common metaphor
for military formality and/or military authoritarianism, and more generally, a
metaphor for any non-verbal actions that hint at authoritarian actions and
subjection responses.  I might add that the metaphor is frequestly used
facetiously.

Aside on mobile radiotelephones:  you don't seem to be aware of it, but by
the 1950's and perhaps earlier that US had a nationwide CIVILIAN network of what
were called "mobile phones".  My next-door neighbor circa 1960, who was the
circulation manager for the newspaper my father worked on, had one in his car.
It fit easily between the transmission hump and the dashboard---presumably it
drew power from the car's own electrical system so batteries were not
included.  I believe the Bell System operated this service.  It was not widely
popular, due to few channels available and probably high price as well, i.e. the
technology for mass-market mobile phones did not exist until the cell phone was
developed.

The classic story is that Lyndon Johnson while Senate Majority Leader had one
in his limo.  Everett Dirksen then got one and proceeded to place a call from
his limo to Johnson's.  LBJ neatly one-upped Dirksen by saying, "I'm sorry,
Ev, I've got a call on the other line."

      - Jim Landau

overheard yesterday:
female voice: "Dress is business casual".
male voice: "What does that mean?"
female voice again:  "It means you wear shoes"


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Sat Feb  5 14:29:34 2005
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 09:29:34 EST
Subject: BEI MIR BIST DU SCHON
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.092934.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The source of that article on BEI MIR BIST DU SCHON can be found at:

http://www.nydailynews.com/city_life/big_town/v-bigtown_archive/story/249817p-
213731c.html


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Sat Feb  5 15:11:20 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 09:11:20 -0600
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <200502050050.68c42045e9720e@rly-nc05.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.091120.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Looks like an amateur radio call sign to me.. unless Mark's got some
kind of new code going : )

Patti Kurtz

wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote:

>
>What does "WV2PBR" stand for?
>
>-Wilson
>
>On Feb 4, 2005, at 10:52 AM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>
>
>
>>-- Mark (ex-WV2PBR, circa 1964)
>>[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>>
>>
>>

--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Feb  5 17:11:51 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 11:11:51 -0600
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.111151.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yesterday Wilson Gray reacted quizically to the term "sammies" in a message
from sandwich-researcher Becky Mercuri.  I therefore forwarded his message to
her and now share her reply below with ads-l.

Gerald Cohen

        ******************

> Gerald:
>
> Apparently, Mr.Gray is asking about the use of the term "sammies" in the Houston Chronicle article?
>
> I never even questioned the use, since it's a very common term among people I talk to daily - my own area (Western New York State), food writers, chefs, cooks, sandwich fans, and now, of course, we see it's used and likely common (or at least understood) in Houston.
>
> There is reference to the term in the ADSL archives by Barry Popik: item 020543 dated 02/02/24:   SAMMIE--a sandwich.
>
> I would classify it among the other common terms in use for sandwich, including sangwich and sammich. I say "common" because I hear these terms frequently and interchangeably all over the country. In many cases, I think people use the terms deliberately, often because it was part of their childhood vocabulary which, in turn, relates sandwiches to favorite food - perhaps even "comfort food." Maybe these are terms of endearment for the sandwich, a beloved American food that has certainly assumed a position of prominence in our food culture.
>
> I hope this makes sense to you. I am, quite obviously, not a professional when it comes to words and their use, but I do take careful note of what I hear from the public when I'm researching food.
>
> Best,
> Becky
>


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Sat Feb  5 18:28:34 2005
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 13:28:34 EST
Subject: 18th c. "jam" in a new sense?
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.132834.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I found this description in a local town history.  Apart from it being a 
sense of the word that I didn't find in either the OED online or DARE, note the 
delight the author takes in the concept of 5000 trees coming down at once.

Dale Coye
Wilton, NH

>From Historical Sketches of Wilton New Hampshire 1739-1939, Hamilton S. 
Putnam, ed.  The Wilton Historical Society, 1939
 
JAM  pp. 9-10    Because of the dense forests, settlers were forced to cut 
down thousands of these big trees to make room for public buildings, houses, 
bridges and roads.  It was customary to cut down trees and burn them.  Sometimes 
the early citizens held a ?jam.?  All the trees on a certain tract would be 
cut nearly off, then, when all was ready the jam would be started by felling 
one big tree.  The giant timber crashing against others would send the whole 
tract smashing to the ground, with a fearful crash, filling the air with broken 
limbs and shaking the ground for a long distance.
            This method of clearing land eliminated a great deal of chopping 
and was supposed to prevent the lodging of trees. It was a magnificent sight 
to see from one thousand to five thousand of these original ?giants of the 
forest? go down at once.  But it was a dangerous business, as a premature fall or 
high wind might start the ?jam? before the workmen were ready.  In spite of 
all manner of precautions several of the early settlers were killed by these 
falling trees.
            The trees were left on the ground to dry for several months.  
After selected logs had been removed from the fallen timber area the whole 
section was set on fire.  Dry timber, leaves, and dry mould of centuries burned like 
tinder and within a few minutes the heat from the blazing pile was like that 
of a ?blazing oven.?  Great precautions had to be taken to prevent the 
frightful force and fury of the fire from burning beyond the bounds and a strong 
force of men was needed.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb  5 19:18:20 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:18:20 -0500
Subject: Buttered Side (1841,
 1857); Gods send nuts (1860); Oxford Quotations
In-Reply-To: <140.3d6ba46d.2f35da0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.141820.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:13 AM -0500 2/5/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>BUTTERED SIDE
>...
>Oxford has this proverb from 1867. It's like Murphy's  law--with two choices,
>the worst outcome will result. Bread always falls  on the buttered side.
>...
>...
>(NEWSPAPERARHIVE)
>...
>Tuesday, November 23, 1841 _Norwalk,_
>(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:norwalk+buttered+side+AND)
>_Ohio_
>(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+buttered+side+AND)
>   _Huron Reflector _
>(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wUP6BEk4rpmKID/6NLMW2vynnkNBVZv8E8crKPO4KeOd5XSGz6G6XQ==)
>
>...
>...not fall upon the And  always on the BUTTERED SIDE. My misfortunes are
>many.....so  nicely with die but- ter of greasy SIDE into the dirt of despon-
>and leave..
>..
>...

...and given that "a cat always lands on its feet", we derive a
paradox I've come across in various forms...let me check...yup, here
it is in one version, which has the advantage of the fact that the
query is posted from our neighboring town of Cheshire CT.

L
====================

http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/19990914.html
Dear Yahoo!:
Why does buttered bread always land butter-side down? And why do cats
always land on their feet? What would happen if you buttered the back
of a cat and dropped it out of a window?
Gilly
Chesire, Connecticut
Dear Gilly:
Funny you should ask. This question seems to be making the rounds. We
found the answer by doing a slightly advanced search, typing "+toast
+cat" into Alta Vista's search engine. On one web page we learned
that this query is the basis for a grand prize-winning solution to
the elusive puzzle of perpetual motion.

The project description speaks for itself:

"When a cat is dropped, it always lands on its feet, and when toast
is dropped it always lands buttered side down. It was proposed to
strap giant slabs of hot buttered toast to the back of a hundred
tethered cats; the two opposing forces will cause the cats to hover,
spinning inches above the ground. Using the giant buttered toast/cat
array, a high-speed monorail could easily link New York with Chicago."


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Feb  5 20:45:45 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 15:45:45 -0500
Subject: Heel-clicking
In-Reply-To: <E1CxQtm-0006P1-00@mx19.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.154545.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 5, 2005, at 9:26 AM, James A. Landau wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Heel-clicking
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> In a message dated Thu, 3 Feb 2005 18:41:43 -0500,  Wilson Gray
> <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> writes:
>
>>  I've never heard this term ["heel-clicking"] used in a military
>> context,
> Jim. So, feel
>>  free to explain. But that reminds me. In the WWII anti-German
>>  propaganda of my childhood, the marine-style "jarhead" haircut, the
>> use
>>  of a monocle, and clicking one's heels and bowing one's head when
>>  shaking hands were all considered to be stereotypically German.
>
> Your problem is that you are too PC, in that you are knee-jerkingly
> classifying as stereotype what is actually a widespread piece of
> Western European
> culture.  The Nazi Wermacht had a lot of non-verbal language, e.g.
> clicking heels,
> that descends from the army of Frederick the Great.  But so does the
> US Army!
> Why?  Because of a Prussian officer, Baron Friedrich William von
> Steuben, who
> became Washington's drillmaster at Valley Forge.  Von Steuben trained
> Washington's troops until they were as good, if not better, than the
> Recoats on the
> battlefield.  The US Army has used descendants of von Steuben's
> Prussian drill
> ever since.
>
> Don't you remember that coming to Attention, or performing Right
> Face/Left
> Face/About Face, involved an actual clicking together of the heels?

Of course. I also noticed immediately, to my great surprise, the very
first time that we practiced "dismounted drill," that the Army's
marching step for parades is - or, at least, was - only a modification
of the high-kicking, so-called "goose step," which was also considered
to be stereotypically Nazi. Our kicks - called "knee-snaps" by the
drill sergeants - were probably only about half as extreme as those of
the Wehrmacht.

I never had occasion to see the Bundeswehr on parade, but, in ordinary
marching, the soldaten were so tightly formed that not even the
American knee-snap would have been possible.

>
> "Heel clicking" therefore is, in my experience at least, a common
> metaphor
> for military formality and/or military authoritarianism, and more
> generally, a
> metaphor for any non-verbal actions that hint at authoritarian actions
> and
> subjection responses.  I might add that the metaphor is frequestly used
> facetiously.

That sounds like what we called "chickenshit." The Army's coat of arms
was said to be crossed floor-buffing machines against a field of
chickenshit. When I first heard this word when I was in high school,
its meaning was "cowardly." But, in The War, it had nothing whatever to
do with that. It meant only the totality of the negative aspects of
military life.

>
> Aside on mobile radiotelephones:  you don't seem to be aware of it,
> but by
> the 1950's and perhaps earlier that US had a nationwide CIVILIAN
> network of what
> were called "mobile phones".  My next-door neighbor circa 1960, who
> was the
> circulation manager for the newspaper my father worked on, had one in
> his car.
> It fit easily between the transmission hump and the
> dashboard---presumably it
> drew power from the car's own electrical system so batteries were not
> included.  I believe the Bell System operated this service.  It was
> not widely
> popular, due to few channels available and probably high price as
> well, i.e. the
> technology for mass-market mobile phones did not exist until the cell
> phone was
> developed.

Back in 1956, a guy offered me a lift across St. Louis's Mill Creek
Valley. (There was only a valley; the creek had been dried up some time
in the 19th Century, when St. Louis was the fourth-largest city in the
country. By weird coincidence, my birthplace, Marshall, was once the
fourth-largest city in Texas. Nowadays, they're both backwaters.) He
had what was called a "car telephone," which he proceeded to
demonstrate to me in all its intricacy. Since I had been just waiting
for the bus and not thumbing, I've always assumed that the guy offered
me a lift specifically so that he could show off his car phone. From
your description, it was the same as, or very similar to, what your
neighbor had.

-Wilson Gray

>
> The classic story is that Lyndon Johnson while Senate Majority Leader
> had one
> in his limo.  Everett Dirksen then got one and proceeded to place a
> call from
> his limo to Johnson's.  LBJ neatly one-upped Dirksen by saying, "I'm
> sorry,
> Ev, I've got a call on the other line."
>
>       - Jim Landau
>
> overheard yesterday:
> female voice: "Dress is business casual".
> male voice: "What does that mean?"
> female voice again:  "It means you wear shoes"
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Feb  5 20:56:33 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:56:33 -0600
Subject: OT: machine translation,
 or how German Schlagsahne wound up as "impact suspect"
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.145633.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   Machine translation evidently has a few kinks to iron out before it becomes entirely reliable. A few weeks ago a former student needed help in translating a blueberry pancake recipe into German.

   While helping her I checked Google for various recipes in German and then for the heck of it clicked on "Translate," and one of the ingredients turned up as "impact suspect." I wondered: "What in the world is impact suspect?" so I went back to the original German recipe.  And there was "Schlagsahne" (whipped cream). The machine translation had divided this compound word in the wrong place. Instead of Schlag (a blow) + Sahne (cream) it analyzed the word as "Schlags" + verb "ahne(n) = suspect, have a presentiment of.

    All of which raises the question: Will machine translation ever become as reliable as human translators?

Gerald Cohen


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Feb  5 20:57:21 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 15:57:21 -0500
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <E1CxTTO-0000IL-00@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.155721.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 5, 2005, at 12:11 PM, Cohen, Gerald Leonard wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American
> Sandwich
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Yesterday Wilson Gray reacted quizically to the term "sammies" in a
> message
> from sandwich-researcher Becky Mercuri.  I therefore forwarded his
> message to
> her and now share her reply below with ads-l.
>
> Gerald Cohen
>
>         ******************
>
>> Gerald:
>>
>> Apparently, Mr.Gray is asking about the use of the term "sammies" in
>> the Houston Chronicle article?
>>
>> I never even questioned the use, since it's a very common term among
>> people I talk to daily - my own area (Western New York State), food
>> writers, chefs, cooks, sandwich fans, and now, of course, we see it's
>> used and likely common (or at least understood) in Houston.
>>
>> There is reference to the term in the ADSL archives by Barry Popik:
>> item 020543 dated 02/02/24:   SAMMIE--a sandwich.
>>
>> I would classify it among the other common terms in use for sandwich,
>> including sangwich and sammich. I say "common" because I hear these
>> terms frequently and interchangeably all over the country. In many
>> cases, I think people use the terms deliberately, often because it
>> was part of their childhood vocabulary which, in turn, relates
>> sandwiches to favorite food - perhaps even "comfort food." Maybe
>> these are terms of endearment for the sandwich, a beloved American
>> food that has certainly assumed a position of prominence in our food
>> culture.
>>
>> I hope this makes sense to you. I am, quite obviously, not a
>> professional when it comes to words and their use, but I do take
>> careful note of what I hear from the public when I'm researching
>> food.
>>
>> Best,
>> Becky
>>
>

The use of "sammie/sammy" as a (nick)name/slang term for "sandwich" is
new to me. Thank you for going to the trouble to explain it to me.

-Wilson Gray


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Feb  5 21:28:04 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:28:04 -0500
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <4a88801240c21cb935f5d0db84c83303@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.162804.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>>I never even questioned the use, since it's a very common term among
>>>people I talk to daily - ....
>>>
>>>I would classify it among the other common terms in use for sandwich,
>>>including sangwich and sammich. ....
>
>The use of "sammie/sammy" as a (nick)name/slang term for "sandwich" is
>new to me.

I surely don't recall ever encountering it either. "Sangwich" and "sammich"
(and "sanwich") are just casual pronunciation variants, I think, but
"sammy" (along with "sangy" and "sanny" and "sandy" and "sandwy" maybe) is
something else: baby-talk? advertiser-talk? diner-lingo?

I wonder what the age and gender distribution of "sammy" users would look like.

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Sat Feb  5 21:43:54 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 16:43:54 -0500
Subject: OT: machine translation,
 or how German Schlagsahne wound up as "impact suspect"
In-Reply-To: <A7704766F9EE3949B30D5BF6297999A21B86CA@UMR-CMAIL3.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.164354.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>     All of which raises the question: Will machine translation ever
> become as reliable as human translators?

IMHO, yes. And soon (or sooner/already, depending on which program and
which human translators are compared).

But will it become perfect? No.

The same question was asked (and answered) about computerized
grandmaster-level chess not long ago.

Recently I tested an automated dictation system, like what Mark Mandel uses
maybe: after maybe 60 seconds of familiarization with my voice it
transcribed my speech, mostly correctly but with some absurd mistakes ...
very much as human typists do, in fact. Would it be a competitor for the
world's best human transcriptionist? No. Would it rival the ones you'll
actually get? Yes. Next year it'll be better, while the humans stay about
the same.

-- Doug Wilson


From Beckymercuri at AOL.COM  Sun Feb  6 02:04:51 2005
From: Beckymercuri at AOL.COM (Beckymercuri at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:04:51 EST
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.210451.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/5/2005 3:57:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes:
The use of "sammie/sammy" as a (nick)name/slang term for "sandwich" is
new to me. Thank you for going to the trouble to explain it to me.

-Wilson Gray
Mr. Gray, you are entirely welcome. And my thanks to you for pointing out an
alternative spelling.

Becky Mercuri


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb  6 02:22:47 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:22:47 -0500
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <E1CxbnG-0007I2-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.212247.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And you are also welcome. And there's also no need to address me as
"Mr."  Even those whose mail apps automatically supply a virtual "Who's
Who" citation take no offense at being addressed informally.

-Wilson

On Feb 5, 2005, at 9:04 PM, Beckymercuri at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beckymercuri at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Re: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American
> Sandwich
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> In a message dated 2/5/2005 3:57:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes:
> The use of "sammie/sammy" as a (nick)name/slang term for "sandwich" is
> new to me. Thank you for going to the trouble to explain it to me.
>
> -Wilson Gray
> Mr. Gray, you are entirely welcome. And my thanks to you for pointing
> out an
> alternative spelling.
>
> Becky Mercuri
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Feb  6 02:42:17 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:42:17 -0500
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050205161926.02f94230@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.214217.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I asked a couple of younger persons whether they recognized "sammy" =
"sandwich". Initially both said "no" but on second thought one said that he
had seen "raspberry sammy" (some kind of cookie or so) at Bruegger's Bagels
and supposed this "sammy" stood for "sandwich". Maybe he's right. I
remembered then that I had seen that item also, and that I had had some
momentary curiosity as to what its name could mean: my two idle transient
notions had been [1] "samosa" (IIRC the sammy was a little triangular
thing) and [2] the given name "Sammy", and the possibility of "sandwich"
had not entered my so-called mind.

-- Doug Wilson


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb  6 02:45:59 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:45:59 -0500
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
In-Reply-To: <E1Cx60a-0002sy-00@mx20.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.214559.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Har-de-har-har," to coin a phrase.:-) Actually, I'm way too old-school
for that look. In my day, the style of dress of even the gentleman of
leisure was quite conservative. And his 'chine was just a stock model
right off the showroom floor. "Pimping out" oneself and/or one's ride
is a *far* more modern concept. And any self-respecting whore (yes, I
know it's an oxymoron) of those would be embarrassed by having to go
out in public flashing as much flesh as a contemporary middle-school
girl. Not that there's anything wrong with contemporary fashion, of
course.

-Wilson

On Feb 4, 2005, at 11:08 AM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject:      Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I think, that rather than saying he owned the word "pimpmobile", he was
> saying he _owned_ a pimpmobile.  My mental picture of Wilson is now one
> of the "Huggy Bear"/Antonio Fargas sort, or maybe the "gentleman of
> leisure" played by Garret Morris in the SNL sketch, "Fred Garvin, Male
> Prostitute".
>
> Wilson is truly a renaissance man.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society
>> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter
>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:26 PM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
>>
>> I am sorry to
>> report, therefore, that any claim in favor of Wilson's unique
>> ownership of this word for copyright, trademark, or
>> servicemark purposes is likely to be staunchly contested.
>>
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb  6 03:12:16 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 22:12:16 -0500
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
In-Reply-To: <E1Cx41h-0002yb-00@mx11.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.221216.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oh, please, Jon!;-) Sterile pseudo-slang and fake vulgarities designed
to pass censorship have no legs and are totally devoid of soul. Have
you ever heard anyone seriously use "scuzz[whatever] or even that hoary
old chestnut, "scumbag," in real life? Well, "scumbag," perhaps, in its
other meaning of "safe," i.e. "condom."

Of course, you may very well be completely right.

-Wilson

On Feb 4, 2005, at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Scumbag" comes close:
>
> "Isn't he the scuzzcrack who fired you from Yearbook?"..."You fired
> me, remember? Because you're a scuzzcrack!"
>
> JL
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> What is the meaning of "scuzzcrack"? It's not as obvious as that of
> "pimpmobile."
>
> -Wilson
>
> On Feb 3, 2005, at 10:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> The possibility that Wilson may be the inglorious Milton who coined
>> "pimpmobile" reminds me that back on Oct. 22 I reported two
>> occurrences of the word "scuzzcrack" on CBS's "Joan of Arcadia" that
>> evening, a word which had not appeared on the Net or anywhere else
>> that I was aware of.
>>
>> Despite its simultaneous reception in millions of American homes,
>> there is still no evidence of wider usage more than 90 days later.
>>
>> So if Wilson set "pimpmobile" afloat in 1963 without the aid of mass
>> media, we reasonably might not expect it to surface till sometime in
>> the mid 22nd century.
>>
>> A quick Google check uncovers about one quarter million examples of
>> "pimpmobile" on the Web alone. I am sorry to report, therefore, that
>> any claim in favor of Wilson's unique ownership of this word for
>> copyright, trademark, or servicemark purposes is likely to be
>> staunchly contested.
>>
>> JL
>>
>> Wilson Gray wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:38 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> -
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Thanks, Wilson. The military sense must be fairly obscure, since I
>>> just discovered it and it seems to go back to the '50s among Morse
>>> operators. Pretty expressive, though.
>>>
>>> As for "pimpmobile," it seems to have taken a full decade for your
>>> creation to have reached the print media.
>>>
>>> JL
>>
>> You know what gives me the jaws (there's a bit in HDAS about this use
>> of "jaws"; can't recall at the moment whether it has this particular
>> version) about "pimpmobile"? There's simply no way to find out whether
>> I'm really *the* source. It's such an obvious coinage that any number
>> of other people could have come up with it any number of times. It's
>> even possible that the first person to use the word in print coined it
>> independently. Sigh! No 15 minutes of fame for me.
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>>
>>> Wilson Gray wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> -
>>> --------
>>>
>>> When I was a teenager in the 'Fifties in St. Louis,
>>> "dittybop(p)er"/diddybop(per)" was a fairly mild insult that meant
>>> something like "wannabe hipster." There was no verb form.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, when I was in The War, I didn't have occasion to come
>>> into contact with any Morse-code operators. More useless information:
>>> when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it sounds like Morse code
>>> to
>>> the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the equipment available in
>>> the
>>> late '50's.
>>>
>>> -Wilson Gray
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>>> Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -
>>>> -
>>>> -
>>>> --------
>>>>
>>>> Have discovered that besides their tedious old meanings, so familiar
>>>> that I needn't bore you with them, these words have been used in the
>>>> military with the senses "high-speed Morse operator" and "high-speed
>>>> Morse receiver/transmitter." To "dittybop" also means "to transmit
>>>> Morse code at high speed."
>>>>
>>>> Can any of my distinguished colleagues and consultants add anything
>>>> to
>>>> the above from personal experience ?
>>>>
>>>> JL
>>>>
>>>> __________________________________________________
>>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb  6 03:24:20 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 22:24:20 -0500
Subject: "Hawk" (Chicago wind) and DOWN BEAT stories
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.222420.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DOWN BEAT was published in Chicago, so I thought it might be a good place to look for "the Hawk" or "Hawkins"--the name of Chicago's (the Windy City's) wind.

My search stopped at the end of 1941, and I did NOT see "the hawk." I just realized that NYU has DOWN BEAT, so I'll be able to check tomorrow...A book listing Erskine Hawkins' recordings did not mention "the hawk."

DARE has "hawk" from 1946, Mezzrow-Wolfe REALLY BLUES. There's a 1966 citation from black singer Lou Rawls. Four 1970s cites are given, all from "Black Jargon." From the 1981 DARE File: "The hawk--nickname for a cold wind. In the late 30's there was a great trumpet-player, Erskine Hawkins, with a big band; he was called the '20th Century Gabriel'--he was said to blow a 'cold blast.'"

First, Erskine Hawkins barely recorded by the late 30's. Early 40's is almost certainly correct.

Second, there were TWO "hawks." "The Hawk" was Coleman Hawkins, who played sax. Erskine Hawkins played trumpet. I'll try to go through DOWN BEAT (Chicago) 1942-1946 tomorrow and sort eagle-eye for "hawk."

If I find anything, I will beg the Chicago Tribune for the next eight years, and they'll publish it in 2013 without credit. It will probably make the Encyclopedia of Chicago's online edition, where I won't get credit, either.

Maybe there's someone in Chicago named Mike Salovesh who'll apreciate it.

-------------------------------------------------------------

1 October 1939, DOWN BEAT, pg. 4, cols. 1-2 headline:
_The Life and Death of Clarence_
_Smith, Creator of Boogie Woogie_
(Long "Pinetop" article--ed.)

1 November 1939, DOWN BEAT, pg. 6, col. 1:
_Illiterate Sign_
_Painter Coined_
_The Term "Jazz"_
(Too long to type. It involves Boisey James at The Schiller (Cafe), Thirty-first street amd Calumet avenue.
Pg. 6, col. 5:
_"Kelly Not the One"_
The late Henry O. Osgood, in his book _So This Is Jazz_, credits Bert Kelly of Chicago with having (Pg. 7, col. 1--ed.) introducced the term _Jazz band_ in 1915. Kelly himself assumes the honor, but it is significant that the site of Kelly's operations was but a matter of blocks to State Street and the Schiller.
(...)
(col. 4--ed.)
As this issue of the _Digest_ (Literary Digest jazz articles of August 25, 1917 and April 26, 1919--ed.) was distributed, it met the eye of Lucius C. Harper present editor of the Chicago _Defender_ and at that time a member of the city staff. Harper who has an uncommonly (Col. 5--ed.) accurate memory tells me that Jim Europe, recently returned from triumpha abroad, was playing the old Auditorium Hotel in Chicago at the time the article appeared. When Harper showed the bandmaster the _Digest_ article Europe denied having expressed himself as quoted. "My knowledge of it" he told Harper "is that it was started right here in Chicago by old Boisey James at the Schiller."

1 November 1939, DOWN BEAT, pg. 21, col. 4:
It's action like this that caused the term "out of this world" to be introduced into Americans' vocabularies.

15 February 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 12 headline:
_The Saxophone Was Invented by Accident!_
_And Will Marion Cook Was the_
_First ti Use it in Jazz Band_
(1840-1940 history of saxophone--ed.)

15 March 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 18, col. 3:
_Petrillo Now_
_At War With_
_"Pancake" Men_
Chicago--James C. Petrillo's latest stand in his battle to eliminate canned music is aimed at electrical transcription and record turntable ops in the Chicago area. He calls them "pancake turners."
("DJs"--ed.)

1 April 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 6, cols. 1-3:
_"Splinterbugs" Nude Feet Thrill Miami!_
_Name Bands Flop as "Raw Dog"_
_Dancing and Congas Catch on_

1 July 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 5, cols. 1-2:
_"Hog Mouth Was So_
_Powerful He Could_
_Play Your Name"_
By ONAH L. SPENCER

Chicago--Jasper Taylor is the man who first used a washboard in a jazz band.

And he was and still is a good drummer. Starting with W. C. Handy in Memphis in 1913, Taylor came to Chicago in 1916 and made records for Paramount and other labels with Jimmy O'Brien, Jelly Roll Morton and others. In France, during the war, Taylor played drums in the 365th Infantry band. Later, he played with WIll Marion Cook's now-famous combo at the Clef Club, New York.

Later, he played with Dave Peyton's Grand Theater irk here, and also at the Plantation with King Oliver, in 1923.

Here are some of Taylor's prize memories:

"In 1917," says he, "a clarinetist named William Phillips came to Chicago to play John Wreckliffe's orchestra. They called him 'Hog Mouth' because his lips measured an inch and a half in thickness. Because his lips were exception strong it was possible for him to execute unusual tones and sounds, both harsh and beautiful, from his clarinet. So remarkable was his control that he would, or could, call out person's names in an audience on his instrument. He is the originator of the expression _'That's All'_ that was used by bands in the twenties. This term was used to sign off or end a dance. All bands used this at that time. But the remarkable feature was that Phillips not only originated it but expressed these words on his instrument when other depended on verbal expression of the term.

"Phillips also originated the 'jackass bray' in such numbers as _Livery Stable Blues_, etc. It happened thus:

"One day when featured with 'A G. Allen's Minstrel Band,' he was doing a solo out front of the tent show when a farmer's jackass interrupted with a long and loud bray. Phillips replied to the donkey with a clarinet bray that brought laughs and applause. Result, he kept braying in his solo. He played New Orleans and later used his jackass bray in _Livery Stable Blues_."

1 September 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 21, cols. 1-4 headline:
_Eddie Chase, Wax Disc Maestro, Is a Very Busy Man These Days_
(No "disc jockey" for this story about WGN's "Make-Believe Ballroom"--ed.)

15 November 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 4, cols. 1-3 headline:
_"We'll Starve the Mickey Mouse Bands"_

15 February 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. (illegible), cols. 1-2 headline:
_Norvo Unappreciated Genius--Frazier_
_Cusses "Handlers who_
_Screw Things Royally_
(SCREWED + ROYALLY=51,700 Google hits. HDAS?--ed.)

15 March 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 13, cols. 1-2:
_Ask L.A. Radio Stations to_
_Use AFM "Pancake-Turners"_
(...)
The headache will arrive in the form of a contemplated drive by Local 47 to install union musicians as record turners or "pan cake flippers" in Los Angeles radio stations.

1 June 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 1, cols. 3-4 headline:
_Uncle Sam May_
_"Sock It" to Musicians_

1 July 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 6, cols. 4-5 headline:
_Artie Shaw Tales: the "Bingle,"_
_The "Snark," and the "Snorf"_

1 October 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 3, cols. 1-2 headline:
_Lionel Hampton Plans 4 Fiddles,_
_Cello to "Carve Dinner Sessions"_
(HDAS has 1943 for "carve--ed.)

1 October 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 14, col. 1:
ONE OF THE REALLY great records of the months appears under the Will Bradley-Ray McKinley billing, and peculiarly enough contains a generous portion of the orchestrated boogie-woogie figures which this corner on previous occasions has branded as synthetic and unsuitable. But Bradley's "Six Texas Hot Dogs" unquestionably hit the proper groove when they cut _Basin Street Boogie_ on Col. 36340.

1 October 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 17, col. 1:
If you can't get _mad_ and press them out you really are a ten o'clock performer.
("Doubling in Brass" by John O'Donnell: "Compare Chops to Sidewalk, Says John"--ed.)
15 October 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 13, cols. 1-3 headline:
_Andy Kirk Band Sends Me--Frazier_

15 November 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 10, cols. 3-4 cartoon:
JOE BLOW and His Orchestra
(Name on tour bus--ed.)


From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM  Sun Feb  6 03:38:49 2005
From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 21:38:49 -0600
Subject: "soylent security"
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.213849.0600.>

References on left-leaning US blogs to President Bush's proposed changes
to Social Security have been including the term "Soylent Security".

I suspect the reference is to the movie Soylent Green (in which Soylent
Green turns out not to be made of soy and/or lentils but from surplus
humans), rather than to the novel on which it's based, Harry Harrison's
_Make Room!  Make Room!_, which I believe doesn't include this information.

--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Decluttering: http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb  6 03:39:36 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 22:39:36 -0500
Subject: Sierra Sandwich & Balboa Sandwich
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.223936.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SIERRA SANDWICH--39 Google hits, 3 Google hits
BALBOA SANDWICH--16 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits

On my way from the Lincoln Center library to dining at the Ethiopian restaurant "Queen of Sheba" (10th Avenue and 45th Street), I passed by Strokos Deli Restaurant, 888 10th Avenue (corner 58th Street). It has these sandwiches:


BALBOA SANDWICH...6.50
grilled roast beef w/melted Swiss cheese on crusty garlic bread

SIERRA SANDWICH...6.50
grilled chicken with peppers, onions and pepper jack cheese


(I had posted "Balboa sandwich" in the archives, but not "Sierra sandwich"--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb  6 03:56:22 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 22:56:22 -0500
Subject: "Three boys are no boy at all" (1850)
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.225622.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(OXFORD DICTIONARY OF PROVERBS)
_Two BOYS are half a boy, and three boys are no boy at all._
The more boys that help, the less work they do.
c. 1930...

This is too easy.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
Letter concerning the New Canal.
SAMUEL. Boys' and Girls' Magazine and Fireside Companion (1848-1850). Boston: Sep 1, 1850. Vol. 6; p. 78 (3 pages)
Second page:
Uncle Joshua says that if ever he was thankful for anything, it is that you have gone out of town; and Aunt Polly says the same; for "birds of a feather will flock together," and one boy _being_ a boy, two boys half a boy, and three boys no boy at all, she has fairly made out the fact that when you and Barnabas was here there were no boys in Crowville Hollow.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb  6 04:38:28 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 23:38:28 -0500
Subject: "Hawk" (Chicago wind) and DOWN BEAT stories
In-Reply-To: <E1Cxd2D-00001O-00@mx12.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.233828.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"The Hawk" as a name for the wind isn't restricted to Chicago. If
anything, this usage is peculiar to black people in general. Colored
folk all over the country use "The Hawk" when referring to an
uncomfortably cold wind. When I was in grade school (1942-1950) in St.
Louis, we used the expression, "The Hawk talks!" to describe what it's
like on a cold, windy, winter's day. When the occasion demanded it, we
said, "The Hawk is talkin'.'" By the time that I was in high school,
some people said "Hawkins is talkin'," presumably to regain a
near-rhyme like that in the original - in my experience - expression.

In any case, whatever the origin of the term, it was heard everywhere
in my youth, without any reference at all to Chicago. Later, in the
'60's there was a song by Rawls in which he says in the spoken intro,
"The Hawk. The almighty Hawk." I think that he may have, in this song,
connected "The Hawk" and Chicago. I didn't like the song, so I didn't
pay enough attention to it to be able to remember it completely.

-Wilson Gray


On Feb 5, 2005, at 10:24 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      "Hawk" (Chicago wind) and DOWN BEAT stories
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> DOWN BEAT was published in Chicago, so I thought it might be a good
> place to look for "the Hawk" or "Hawkins"--the name of Chicago's (the
> Windy City's) wind.
>
> My search stopped at the end of 1941, and I did NOT see "the hawk." I
> just realized that NYU has DOWN BEAT, so I'll be able to check
> tomorrow...A book listing Erskine Hawkins' recordings did not mention
> "the hawk."
>
> DARE has "hawk" from 1946, Mezzrow-Wolfe REALLY BLUES. There's a 1966
> citation from black singer Lou Rawls. Four 1970s cites are given, all
> from "Black Jargon." From the 1981 DARE File: "The hawk--nickname for
> a cold wind. In the late 30's there was a great trumpet-player,
> Erskine Hawkins, with a big band; he was called the '20th Century
> Gabriel'--he was said to blow a 'cold blast.'"
>
> First, Erskine Hawkins barely recorded by the late 30's. Early 40's is
> almost certainly correct.
>
> Second, there were TWO "hawks." "The Hawk" was Coleman Hawkins, who
> played sax. Erskine Hawkins played trumpet. I'll try to go through
> DOWN BEAT (Chicago) 1942-1946 tomorrow and sort eagle-eye for "hawk."
>
> If I find anything, I will beg the Chicago Tribune for the next eight
> years, and they'll publish it in 2013 without credit. It will probably
> make the Encyclopedia of Chicago's online edition, where I won't get
> credit, either.
>
> Maybe there's someone in Chicago named Mike Salovesh who'll apreciate
> it.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 1 October 1939, DOWN BEAT, pg. 4, cols. 1-2 headline:
> _The Life and Death of Clarence_
> _Smith, Creator of Boogie Woogie_
> (Long "Pinetop" article--ed.)
>
> 1 November 1939, DOWN BEAT, pg. 6, col. 1:
> _Illiterate Sign_
> _Painter Coined_
> _The Term "Jazz"_
> (Too long to type. It involves Boisey James at The Schiller (Cafe),
> Thirty-first street amd Calumet avenue.
> Pg. 6, col. 5:
> _"Kelly Not the One"_
> The late Henry O. Osgood, in his book _So This Is Jazz_, credits Bert
> Kelly of Chicago with having (Pg. 7, col. 1--ed.) introducced the term
> _Jazz band_ in 1915. Kelly himself assumes the honor, but it is
> significant that the site of Kelly's operations was but a matter of
> blocks to State Street and the Schiller.
> (...)
> (col. 4--ed.)
> As this issue of the _Digest_ (Literary Digest jazz articles of August
> 25, 1917 and April 26, 1919--ed.) was distributed, it met the eye of
> Lucius C. Harper present editor of the Chicago _Defender_ and at that
> time a member of the city staff. Harper who has an uncommonly (Col.
> 5--ed.) accurate memory tells me that Jim Europe, recently returned
> from triumpha abroad, was playing the old Auditorium Hotel in Chicago
> at the time the article appeared. When Harper showed the bandmaster
> the _Digest_ article Europe denied having expressed himself as quoted.
> "My knowledge of it" he told Harper "is that it was started right here
> in Chicago by old Boisey James at the Schiller."
>
> 1 November 1939, DOWN BEAT, pg. 21, col. 4:
> It's action like this that caused the term "out of this world" to be
> introduced into Americans' vocabularies.
>
> 15 February 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 12 headline:
> _The Saxophone Was Invented by Accident!_
> _And Will Marion Cook Was the_
> _First ti Use it in Jazz Band_
> (1840-1940 history of saxophone--ed.)
>
> 15 March 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 18, col. 3:
> _Petrillo Now_
> _At War With_
> _"Pancake" Men_
> Chicago--James C. Petrillo's latest stand in his battle to eliminate
> canned music is aimed at electrical transcription and record turntable
> ops in the Chicago area. He calls them "pancake turners."
> ("DJs"--ed.)
>
> 1 April 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 6, cols. 1-3:
> _"Splinterbugs" Nude Feet Thrill Miami!_
> _Name Bands Flop as "Raw Dog"_
> _Dancing and Congas Catch on_
>
> 1 July 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 5, cols. 1-2:
> _"Hog Mouth Was So_
> _Powerful He Could_
> _Play Your Name"_
> By ONAH L. SPENCER
>
> Chicago--Jasper Taylor is the man who first used a washboard in a jazz
> band.
>
> And he was and still is a good drummer. Starting with W. C. Handy in
> Memphis in 1913, Taylor came to Chicago in 1916 and made records for
> Paramount and other labels with Jimmy O'Brien, Jelly Roll Morton and
> others. In France, during the war, Taylor played drums in the 365th
> Infantry band. Later, he played with WIll Marion Cook's now-famous
> combo at the Clef Club, New York.
>
> Later, he played with Dave Peyton's Grand Theater irk here, and also
> at the Plantation with King Oliver, in 1923.
>
> Here are some of Taylor's prize memories:
>
> "In 1917," says he, "a clarinetist named William Phillips came to
> Chicago to play John Wreckliffe's orchestra. They called him 'Hog
> Mouth' because his lips measured an inch and a half in thickness.
> Because his lips were exception strong it was possible for him to
> execute unusual tones and sounds, both harsh and beautiful, from his
> clarinet. So remarkable was his control that he would, or could, call
> out person's names in an audience on his instrument. He is the
> originator of the expression _'That's All'_ that was used by bands in
> the twenties. This term was used to sign off or end a dance. All bands
> used this at that time. But the remarkable feature was that Phillips
> not only originated it but expressed these words on his instrument
> when other depended on verbal expression of the term.
>
> "Phillips also originated the 'jackass bray' in such numbers as
> _Livery Stable Blues_, etc. It happened thus:
>
> "One day when featured with 'A G. Allen's Minstrel Band,' he was doing
> a solo out front of the tent show when a farmer's jackass interrupted
> with a long and loud bray. Phillips replied to the donkey with a
> clarinet bray that brought laughs and applause. Result, he kept
> braying in his solo. He played New Orleans and later used his jackass
> bray in _Livery Stable Blues_."
>
> 1 September 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 21, cols. 1-4 headline:
> _Eddie Chase, Wax Disc Maestro, Is a Very Busy Man These Days_
> (No "disc jockey" for this story about WGN's "Make-Believe
> Ballroom"--ed.)
>
> 15 November 1940, DOWN BEAT, pg. 4, cols. 1-3 headline:
> _"We'll Starve the Mickey Mouse Bands"_
>
> 15 February 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. (illegible), cols. 1-2 headline:
> _Norvo Unappreciated Genius--Frazier_
> _Cusses "Handlers who_
> _Screw Things Royally_
> (SCREWED + ROYALLY=51,700 Google hits. HDAS?--ed.)
>
> 15 March 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 13, cols. 1-2:
> _Ask L.A. Radio Stations to_
> _Use AFM "Pancake-Turners"_
> (...)
> The headache will arrive in the form of a contemplated drive by Local
> 47 to install union musicians as record turners or "pan cake flippers"
> in Los Angeles radio stations.
>
> 1 June 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 1, cols. 3-4 headline:
> _Uncle Sam May_
> _"Sock It" to Musicians_
>
> 1 July 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 6, cols. 4-5 headline:
> _Artie Shaw Tales: the "Bingle,"_
> _The "Snark," and the "Snorf"_
>
> 1 October 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 3, cols. 1-2 headline:
> _Lionel Hampton Plans 4 Fiddles,_
> _Cello to "Carve Dinner Sessions"_
> (HDAS has 1943 for "carve--ed.)
>
> 1 October 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 14, col. 1:
> ONE OF THE REALLY great records of the months appears under the Will
> Bradley-Ray McKinley billing, and peculiarly enough contains a
> generous portion of the orchestrated boogie-woogie figures which this
> corner on previous occasions has branded as synthetic and unsuitable.
> But Bradley's "Six Texas Hot Dogs" unquestionably hit the proper
> groove when they cut _Basin Street Boogie_ on Col. 36340.
>
> 1 October 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 17, col. 1:
> If you can't get _mad_ and press them out you really are a ten o'clock
> performer.
> ("Doubling in Brass" by John O'Donnell: "Compare Chops to Sidewalk,
> Says John"--ed.)
> 15 October 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 13, cols. 1-3 headline:
> _Andy Kirk Band Sends Me--Frazier_
>
> 15 November 1941, DOWN BEAT, pg. 10, cols. 3-4 cartoon:
> JOE BLOW and His Orchestra
> (Name on tour bus--ed.)
>


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Sun Feb  6 05:20:58 2005
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 23:20:58 -0600
Subject: Cats
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.232058.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, not exactly always.  When I was (probably) about 13 or so, with the
consideration for other creatures common to boys of that age, I wondered if
a cat would fall on its feet if thrown in the air with rotation (axis about
a line through the hip joints.)  That one didn't.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>...

...and given that "a cat always lands on its feet", we derive a
paradox I've come across in various forms...let me check...yup, here
it is in one version, which has the advantage of the fact that the
query is posted from our neighboring town of Cheshire CT.


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Sun Feb  6 05:29:06 2005
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 23:29:06 -0600
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
Message-ID: <SAT.5.FEB.2005.232906.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I seem to remember "scumbag" as slang for our regular customers when I was a
cop in central Illinois in the early 70s.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>

Oh, please, Jon!;-) Sterile pseudo-slang and fake vulgarities designed
to pass censorship have no legs and are totally devoid of soul. Have
you ever heard anyone seriously use "scuzz[whatever] or even that hoary
old chestnut, "scumbag," in real life? Well, "scumbag," perhaps, in its
other meaning of "safe," i.e. "condom."

Of course, you may very well be completely right.

-Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Feb  6 05:51:15 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 00:51:15 -0500
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050205213425.02f9fd60@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.005115.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The "sammie" which appeared in the ADS-L archives was among a group of New
Zealand words.

Here is a large list of NZ-isms, including "sammie" and other similar
things such as "footie" = "football", "pozzie" = "position", "breckie" =
"breakfast", etc.

http://chris.heathens.co.nz/NZese.html

"Sammie" = "sandwich" fits naturally enough in the NZ list.

If "sammie" = "sandwich" is conventional in the US, there should be
numerous examples in fiction: are there? It's hard to search since mostly
"Sammy" is a name; but I checked several expressions such as "ham sammie",
"have a sammie", etc. at Amazon search-inside and I don't see any "sammie"
= "sandwich". Maybe it's very new in the US?

-- Doug Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb  6 08:44:00 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 03:44:00 EST
Subject: Watching paint dry (1959); The Hawk Talks (1952)
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.034400.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WATCHING PAINT DRY
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_'The  Shrike' Offered at Horseshoe_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=464284862&SrchMode=1&sid=9&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS
=1107673743&clientId=65882)
GEOFFREY WARREN.  Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles,
Calif.: May 19, 1959. p. 28 (1 page)
...
Sitting in attendance at the Horseshoe Stage Theater presentation of Joseph
Kramm's "The Shrike" is as exciting as watching paint dry.
...
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
THE HAWK TALKS
...
Thanks, Wilson.
...
I've tried all sorts of search terms for THE AFRO AMERICAN (Baltimore, but
national coverage), Newspaperarchive, and ProQuest Historical Newspapers. If
Down Beat doesn't come through, we'll have to wait for the complete
digitization  of the Chicago Tribune. It's now at 1958, but in the 1960s and 1970s, "The
Hawk"  was probably discussed at least once and readers probably wrote in.
However,  with ProQuest, that could be this year, or next year...
...
...
(PAPER OF RECORD)
27 December 1952, THE AFRO AMERICAN, pg. 16, col. 4:
(The story is from Chicago--ed.)
Woody Herman led the jazz fields with Duke Ellington in third and fourth
places, respectively, with his "The Hawk Talks" and "Jam With Sam", "Johnny
Hodges", "Castle Rock," fifth, and Illinois Jacquet's "Port of Rico,"  ninth.
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_BAND  BEATS JIVE AS PEARL BAILEY WEDS DRUMMER; London Crowd Jitterbugs at
Ceremony _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=8&did=498931892&SrchMode=1&sid=10&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107677785&clientId=65882)
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago,  Ill.: Nov 20, 1952. p. A1 (1
page)
...
As they came to the door, there was an outburst of jazz music. Outside the
jimmy Walker band was playing Bellson's song, "The Hawk Talks."
...
       18.
_JAZZ  STYLES REVIVED; JAZZ MAESTRO _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=17&did=95811234&SrchMode=1&sid=12&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&
TS=1107678274&clientId=65882)
By JOHN S.  WILSONJoe Covello from Black Star. New York Times  (1857-Current
file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 23, 1956. p. 138 (1 page)
...
COLEMAN HAWKINS: The Hawk Talks (Decca).  The elder statesman of the tenor
saxophone is plagued by strings and steel  guitars throughout most of this disk,
but he manages tgo break through  occasionally with some of his customary
strong, striking statements.
...
...
_The  New Steelworkers; The New Steelworkers-'No Pride in This Dust' _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=3&did=119453908&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=P
ROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107675565&clientId=65882)
By BENNETT KREMEN. New York Times  (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jan
7, 1973. p. 159 (2 pages)
First page:
The sun isn't up yet and the "Hawk," Chicago's cruel wind, lashes down on
the thousands of workers huddling at bus stops.
...
_CHICAGO'S  RAW NERVE_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=6&did=115510434&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107675180&cl
ientId=65882)
By Dirk Johnson. New  York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 19,
1989. p. SM34 (6  pages)
First page, first paragraph:
IN THE SOUTH SIDE OF CHICAGO, in the lobby of a former union hall, there
hangs an old photograph. Striking stockyard workers, blacks and whites, are
huddled together for solidarity, and perhaps for warmth, against the fierce
winter wind that whips off Lake Michigan, an infamous gale known here as "The
Hawk." Across the photograph is emblazoned the slogan, "Negro and White--Unite  to
Fight!"
...
_Once  Stolid and Big-Shouldered, Now a Cinderella on the Lake_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=7&did=117371465&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VTy
pe=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107674999&clientId=65882)
By DIRK JOHNSON. New York Times  (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 15,
1997. p. A10 (1 page)
...
But not even the infamous winter wind, known here as The Hawk, appears
likely to chill the property market here.
...
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
     _Daily Intelligencer _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WzJJ0cfXWDaKID/6NLMW2ueuV6jcLHxVxx4Q2VSrmvmWSDIoRKdgCkIF+CsZYmrz)  Sunday,
January 12, 1986 _Doylestown,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:doylestown+the+hawk+and+Lake+michigan+and+wind)  _Pennsylvania_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+the+hawk+and+La
ke+michigan+and+wind)      ...a HAWK. THE  HAWK is what THEy call THE WIND
that screams  in off LAKE MICHIGAN.....on Page B 10 Rams meet Bears but  'THE
HAWK' won't fly CHICAGO Barely a  week..
...
     _Daily Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=KVP2nb8FYnqKID/6NLMW2ug58hDIVYU1l4JdXWwSbvhcRaRK/rDzJ0IF+CsZYmrz)  Tuesday, October
29, 1985 _Chicago,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:chicago+the+hawk+is+the+wind+and+Chicago)  _Illinois_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+the+hawk+is+the+wind+and+Chicago)
 ...s last couple weeks.  CHICAGO's mighty HAWK blew off THE lake  AND right
on down.....to find he was tradin' against  THE WIND. THE Sox were ready to
wheel  AND..
...
     _Daily Intelligencer _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WzJJ0cfXWDaKID/6NLMW2ueuV6jcLHxVxx4Q2VSrmvnovlBIiVNHPUIF+CsZYmrz)  Sunday,
January 12, 1986 _Doylestown,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:doylestown+the+hawk+and+Lake+michigan)  _Pennsylvania_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+the+hawk+and+Lake+michig
an)      ...THEy call THE  wind that screams in off LAKE MICHIGAN AND swirls
through Soldier.....was 74. Almost hot enough to roast a HAWK.  THE HAWK is
what..
...
     _Syracuse Herald Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2irVfGke03XYUXnd6keGXZjE20/2yzabr0IF+CsZYmrz)  Monday,
September 30, 1991 _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+the+hawk+and+chicago+and+wind)  _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+the+hawk+and+chicago+and+wi
nd)      ...ORCHARD PARK THE  Bears call it THE HAWK THE WIND coming off
Lake Michigan.....well in his first two seasons with CHICAGO's  Bears He spent
most of  his..


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb  6 10:00:22 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 05:00:22 EST
Subject: Smart cookie (1932)
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.050022.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

_http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=468770_
(http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=468770)

I am looking for the origin of the phrase "smart cookie" My daughter

is 6.5 and wonders why I call her a smart cookie, and not a smart x. I

want to tell her where the phrase started, etc. Thanks in advance.
...
...
The above "smart cookie" question just came up on Google Answers. Someone
just provided a 1948...The "Judas Priest" answer that I antedated by 30 years got
four stars!
Jonathon Green's Cassell Dictionary of Slang gives "1920s+."
.....
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_A LINE O' TYPE OR TWO_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=440350252&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107682690&c
lientId=65882)
R H L. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 7, 1932. p. 10
(1 page)
...
A friend of mine suggested writing to the R.F.C. but these smart cookies
don't give you their address, they don't even give their full names.
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
  _ Sheboygan Press _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=olJOpJH/3rKKID/6NLMW2m2sc/1LLWiHTLCIp+CdG9UjbtL4V7NJxQ==) Thursday, August 03, 1933
_Sheboygan,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:sheboygan+smart+cookie+AND)  _Wisconsin_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+smart+cookie+AND)    ...an international tournament.
And some SMART COOKIE comments tlial London.....just seven days. You see there
were no SMART alecks to offer a lot of Never..


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Feb  6 11:14:26 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 06:14:26 -0500
Subject: Smart cookie (1932)
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.061426.0500.>

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 05:00:22 EST, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>_A LINE O' TYPE OR TWO_
>(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=440350252&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107682690&clientId=65882)
>R H L. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Nov 7, 1932. p. 10
>(1 page)
>...
>A friend of mine suggested writing to the R.F.C. but these smart cookies
>don't give you their address, they don't even give their full names.

"Smart cookie"'s tougher relative goes back to 1921 on N-archive...

1921 _Syracuse Herald_ 7 Jan. 22/4 His feat of stopping the mountainous
Dick O'Brien Tuesday night in two rounds is considered to be better than
noteworthy by the critics. O'Brien is tall, heavy, fairly clever and
generally regarded as a tough cookie.

1922 _Nebraska State Journal_ 25 Jun. B5/2 Nobody in Los Angeles thought
well of Virginia Rappe. She was a tough cookie but very beautiful.


--Ben Zimmer


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb  6 13:55:54 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 08:55:54 -0500
Subject: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"
In-Reply-To: <140.3d6ba46d.2f35da0e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.085554.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is anyone able to search American Periodical Series to find an 1855
occurrence there of "politics makes strange bed-fellows"?  I would need
exact source and exact wording.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb  6 14:27:43 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 09:27:43 -0500
Subject: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502060853150.22338-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.092743.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Let me clarify my last request: in addition to the earliest hit on
American Periodical Series for the specific phrase "politics makes strange
bedfellows" or "politics makes strange bed-fellows," I would be interested
in any similar phrases in which "politics" and "strange
bedfellows/bed-fellows" occur near each other in the same article.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Feb  6 14:29:00 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 09:29:00 -0500
Subject: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.092900.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

_National Era_ Nov 8, 1855; VOL. IX, NO. 462  pg. 178

"When Know Nothingism first made its appearance, its principal aim was to
check the aggressions of Popery, and secondarily to curtail the foreign
influence.  But "politics make strange bed-fellows;" and "'tis passing
strange'" to see Sam and the Pope lie down together in perfect peace, as is
now witnessed in Louisiana."

SC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 8:55 AM
Subject: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"


> Is anyone able to search American Periodical Series to find an 1855
> occurrence there of "politics makes strange bed-fellows"?  I would need
> exact source and exact wording.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From Beckymercuri at AOL.COM  Sun Feb  6 14:55:32 2005
From: Beckymercuri at AOL.COM (Beckymercuri at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 09:55:32 EST
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.095532.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/5/2005 9:22:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes:
And you are also welcome. And there's also no need to address me as
"Mr."  Even those whose mail apps automatically supply a virtual "Who's
Who" citation take no offense at being addressed informally.

-Wilson
Wilson:

Thank you for being so cordial. I find myself very intimidated when it comes
to participating on ADS-L. I'm very impressed by the credentials you all have,
as well as the fabulous information that is posted here. I read it regularly
and with great interest, especially when food terms are mentioned. Everyone is
to be commended for the hard work that is dedicated to all this research, and
I'm thrilled to see that there is much more attention being paid to food and
foodways.

Best,
Becky


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sun Feb  6 14:58:46 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 06:58:46 -0800
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050206000348.02f84150@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.065846.0800.>

> If "sammie" = "sandwich" is conventional in the US, there should be
> numerous examples in fiction: are there? It's hard to search since mostly
> "Sammy" is a name; but I checked several expressions such as "ham sammie",
> "have a sammie", etc. at Amazon search-inside and I don't see any "sammie"
> = "sandwich". Maybe it's very new in the US?

I recall it from my college days, 1981-85. It was primarily used by one
particular friend of mine (who was from eastern Pennsylvania) with some use
by others who probably picked it up from him.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From Beckymercuri at AOL.COM  Sun Feb  6 15:22:38 2005
From: Beckymercuri at AOL.COM (Beckymercuri at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:22:38 EST
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.102238.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/5/2005 4:27:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, douglas at NB.NET
writes:
The use of "sammie/sammy" as a (nick)name/slang term for "sandwich" is
>new to me.

I surely don't recall ever encountering it either. "Sangwich" and "sammich"
(and "sanwich") are just casual pronunciation variants, I think, but
"sammy" (along with "sangy" and "sanny" and "sandy" and "sandwy" maybe) is
something else: baby-talk? advertiser-talk? diner-lingo?

I wonder what the age and gender distribution of "sammy" users would look
like.

-- Doug Wilson
Doug:

I think you may be correct when you say "baby-talk," which is what I sort of
inferred when I mentioned that the word "sammie" (or "sammy") appeared to be a
term of endearment for a favorite American dish. I've never seen it in diner
lingo.

If this is of any help to you, I've noticed that both males and females, aged
20 to around 60, have used the term. Geographically, I've noted that it's
primarily an east and west coast term - but with people relocating all over the
country, who knows? I was surprised to see it in the Houston Chronicle article,
but perhaps the author was from Pennsylvania, given her hope for a Super Bowl
between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia (and her knowledge of the Primanti
sandwich, a local favorite in Pittsburgh).

Becky


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Sun Feb  6 16:16:10 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 11:16:10 -0500
Subject: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.111610.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Fred,

Here's an earlier APS one, which fits into your request for not the exact
phrase, but shows the concept was there earlier:

_The New World:  A Weekly Family Journal of Popular Literature, Science, Art
and...._ May 15, 1841; 2, 20; pg 308  **note by SC--this is a six page
article, with no page numbers showing--so I'm only saying pg 308, as that is
what APS lists at the top.  Also, my reading is that this is reprinted from
_Blackwood's Magazine_ and is a novel (called "Ten Thousand a Year" ?).

"Misery makes strange bed-fellows, but surely politics stranger still;  "

SC


----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:27 AM
Subject: Re: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"


> Let me clarify my last request: in addition to the earliest hit on
> American Periodical Series for the specific phrase "politics makes strange
> bedfellows" or "politics makes strange bed-fellows," I would be interested
> in any similar phrases in which "politics" and "strange
> bedfellows/bed-fellows" occur near each other in the same article.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb  6 17:36:29 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 09:36:29 -0800
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.093629.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Have never encountered "sammie," sandwich, in US till this discussion.

JL

"Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
Subject: Re: "sammies"; was: Becky Mercuri's book American Sandwich
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The "sammie" which appeared in the ADS-L archives was among a group of New
Zealand words.

Here is a large list of NZ-isms, including "sammie" and other similar
things such as "footie" = "football", "pozzie" = "position", "breckie" =
"breakfast", etc.

http://chris.heathens.co.nz/NZese.html

"Sammie" = "sandwich" fits naturally enough in the NZ list.

If "sammie" = "sandwich" is conventional in the US, there should be
numerous examples in fiction: are there? It's hard to search since mostly
"Sammy" is a name; but I checked several expressions such as "ham sammie",
"have a sammie", etc. at Amazon search-inside and I don't see any "sammie"
= "sandwich". Maybe it's very new in the US?

-- Doug Wilson


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Feb  6 21:46:32 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 16:46:32 -0500
Subject: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.164632.0500.>

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 09:29:00 -0500, Sam Clements <SClements at NEO.RR.COM> wrote:
>
>From: "Fred Shapiro" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
>
>> Is anyone able to search American Periodical Series to find an 1855
>> occurrence there of "politics makes strange bed-fellows"?  I would need
>> exact source and exact wording.
>
>_National Era_ Nov 8, 1855; VOL. IX, NO. 462  pg. 178
>
>"When Know Nothingism first made its appearance, its principal aim was to
>check the aggressions of Popery, and secondarily to curtail the foreign
>influence.  But "politics make strange bed-fellows;" and "'tis passing
>strange'" to see Sam and the Pope lie down together in perfect peace, as is
>now witnessed in Louisiana."

_Workingman's Advocate_, Mar 10, 1832, Vol. 3, Iss. 30, p. 1
Verily, politics _do_ make strange bedfellows.


--Ben Zimmer


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb  6 21:55:41 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 16:55:41 -0500
Subject: Disraeli Quote on PQHN
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.165541.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If I can impose upon the list one more time:  Is anyone willing to check
ProQuest Historical Newspapers to find an 1893 Chicago Tribune occurrence
of the Disraeli quote about "my ancestors" (something along the line of my
ancestors were priests in the temple of Solomon when yours were
savages...)?  I would need the exact wording and dating.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Feb  6 22:33:50 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 17:33:50 -0500
Subject: Disraeli Quote on PQHN
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.173350.0500.>

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 16:55:41 -0500, Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
wrote:

>If I can impose upon the list one more time:  Is anyone willing to check
>ProQuest Historical Newspapers to find an 1893 Chicago Tribune occurrence
>of the Disraeli quote about "my ancestors" (something along the line of my
>ancestors were priests in the temple of Solomon when yours were
>savages...)?  I would need the exact wording and dating.

Chicago Daily Tribune, Jan 22, 1893. p. 38
The people out there in the Kentucky County of Virginia resembled at the
time Disraeli's description of their relative forefathers when they had
called him a Jew: "When my ancestors were worshiping in the temple," he
said, "yours were naked barbarians."

But here are earlier cites:

Washington Post, Mar 28, 1878, p. 2
Jewish Times: Lady Rosebery has blue blood than her husband; her family
tree is much more ancient than his. To quote Disraeli, her ancestors were
princes in the temple when Lord Rosebery's ancestors were savages in the
woods.

Atlanta Constitution, Feb 14, 1892, p. 14
It was no idle boast when Disraeli said in the English commons in reply to
the charge that he was a Jew: "Yes, I am a Jew! When the ancestors of the
honorable gentlemen were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine were
priests in the temple!"
[Same wording appears in: Los Angeles Times, Feb 28, 1892, p. 10]

--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb  6 23:59:00 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 18:59:00 -0500
Subject: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"; No Bad Weather
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.185900.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

_Workingman's Advocate_, Mar 10, 1832, Vol. 3, Iss. 30, p. 1
Verily, politics _do_ make strange bedfellows.

--Ben Zimmer

He's a tough cookie. This is close.


(EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS)
Headline: [Bennington; Judge Rising; Councillor; Manchester];
Paper: Vermont Gazette;   Date: 1831-06-28;   Vol: XLVIII
Pgae 3:
This ambition which besets men, frequently brings them "acquainted with strange bed-fellows," and altho' doubts and darkness rest upon the question, as to the degrees of bitterness and hatred cherished against the friends of the administration, and comparatively, which hates them worst, anti-masons or the aristocratic party--shall we stand on debateable ground, called non-comittal, until we see who else is to be put in nomination.

--------------------------------------------------------------
THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS BAD WEATHER, ONLY WRONG CLOTHES

The Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs, pg. 12, has this from 1980. It's not explained that the original quote is from Ruskin. You think these London fellows would get a quote like this correct.


Display Ad 7 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 6, 1907. p. 5 (1 page):
There is no such thing as bad weather--only different kinds of good weather.

Never be at the mercy of the temperature--no use kicking at the inevitable.

Good cool Summer for horseback exercise.

_Cross English Saddles_


Birmingham Honors David Cox; Sun, Wind and Rain" Burlington Fine Arts Club
Special from Monitor BureauFRANK RUTTER.. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jan 25, 1926. p. 12 (1 page):
John Ruskin once observed to a friend of the present writer, who had injudiciously complained at the downpour through which they were trudging the streets of London, "Bad weather! There is no such thing as bad weather, sir. There are only different sorts of good weather."


VISITOR LAUDS SUNSHINE; Californians Do Not Appreciate Weather, He Says; Defends Climate of England
PHILIP HEWITT-MYRING. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 24, 1927. p. 2 (1 page) :
Social life in England is planned on the assumption that no such thing as bad weather exists.


Other 14 -- No Title
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jan 30, 1928. p. 13 (1 page):
THERE is no such thing as bad weather--there are only different kinds of good weather.--Ruskin.


TO TEST TELEVISION OUTSIDE OF CITIES; RCA Plans Transmitter at Bound Brook, N.J., to Supplement Urban Experiments.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 17, 1929. p. 24 (1 page) :
Mr. Scarr said there was "no such thing as bad weather, just different kinds of good weather."


No Day Need Be Dark and Dreary
Special from Monitor Bureau. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 16, 1931. p. 8 (1 page):
IT HAS been wisely said that there is no such thing as bad weather, but only bad dressing for the weather.


Summer Suits, Smart Accents; Men of the Family Now May Keep Cool With Dignity Tropical Worsteds Evenings in Town
By Helen Johnson Keyes Special from The Christian Science Monitor Bureau. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jul 17, 1935. p. 8 (1 page):
IT WAS a wise man who once said, "There is no such thing as bad weather, only bad dressing for the weather." When this assertion was made, 20 and more years ago, there was a greater amount of bad dressing for the weather than there is today.


SEEN FROM THE Green Vergudo Hills; A PAGE CONDUCTED BY JOHN STEVEN McGROARTY
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 12, 1936. p. H2 (1 page):
For the man sound in body and serene of mind there is no such thing as bad weather; every sky has its beauty, and storms which whip the blood do make it pulse more vigorously.


OUR FLYING FUTURE---ABOVE THE WEATHER
D W TOMLINSON. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 7, 1937. p. I7 (2 pages)
First page:
...it follows that the air and the airplane offer the only potentialities for the future for travel in what seems the single known region where there is no such thing as bad weather.


Starting in the Rain
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: May 28, 1940. p. 12 (1 page):
This was what I had been waiting for, and I responded glibly, "Someone has said there is no such thing as bad weather, there are only good clothes."


Daily Anecdote; Let the Wind Blow!
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Apr 23, 1946. p. 17 (1 page) :
A friend was complaining to Ruskin about the weather.

"Why, Henry," rejoined the genial philosopher, "there's really no such thing as bad weather."

"No?" was the doubtful retort.

"No," replied Ruskin. "Sunshine is delicious, rain is refreshing, wind braces you up, snow is exhilarating--all different kinds of good weather!"


Display Ad 20 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 4, 1950. p. C1 (1 page):
There's no such thing as bad weather in our water repellent gabardine Trooper Coat,...


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb  7 00:34:57 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 19:34:57 -0500
Subject: "One white foot" proverb (1829); "RIsing tide lifts all boats"
 (1957)
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.193457.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"One white foot, buy him; two white feet, try him; three white feet, look well about him; four white feet, go without him"

A horse-dealing proverb.
--OXFORD DICTIONARY OF PROVERBS, pg. 333. The first citation is 1882.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
Character of the ancient Romans.
The Ariel. A Semimonthly Literary and Miscellaneous Gazette (1827-1832). Philadelphia: Nov 28, 1829. Vol. 3, Iss. 16; p. 127 (1 page):
_Marks of a Horse._

One white foot, buy him;
Two white feet, try him;
Three white feet, deny him;
Four white feet and a white nose,
Take off his hide, and give him to the crows.


Poem 1 -- No Title
--Punchinello.. Saturday Evening Post (1839-1885). Philadelphia: Nov 5, 1870. p. 7 (1 page):
RULES AND MAXIMS.--It used to be said in regard to horses:

"One white foot, buy him,
Two white feet, try him,
Three white feet, deny him,
Four white feet and a white nose,
Take off his shoes and give him to the crows."

But the advent of Dexter has changed the sinister rhyme to:

One white foot, spy him,
Two white feet, try him,
Three white feet, buy him,
Four white feet and a white nose,
And a mile in 2-17 he goes.
--_Punchinello_.

--------------------------------------------------------------
A RISING TIDE LIFTS ALL BOATS

The Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs has this from 1963, from President Kennedy.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Display Ad 14 -- No Title
Wall Street Journal (1889-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 29, 1957. p. 4 (1 page) :
"The Rising Tide Lifts All Boats."
HYATT HY-ROLL BEARINGS


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb  7 01:33:50 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 17:33:50 -0800
Subject: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"; No Bad Weather
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.173350.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

?1794 Anthony Pasquin A Crying Epistle from Britannia to Colonel Mack (London: H. D. Symonds & J. Ridgway, n.d.) 84: "But necessity makes us acquainted with strange bedfellows."

(Within quotes, so presumably already proverbial.)

1800 William Gifford The Baviad and the Maeviad (London: J. Wright, 1800) 117:
I can only say that politics, like misery, "bring a man acquainted with strange bedfeloows."

"Misery acquaints a man with strange bedfellows," is from The Tempest II ii.


JL
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: Re: "Politics Makes Strange Bed-Fellows"; No Bad Weather
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_Workingman's Advocate_, Mar 10, 1832, Vol. 3, Iss. 30, p. 1
Verily, politics _do_ make strange bedfellows.

--Ben Zimmer

He's a tough cookie. This is close.


(EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS)
Headline: [Bennington; Judge Rising; Councillor; Manchester];
Paper: Vermont Gazette; Date: 1831-06-28; Vol: XLVIII
Pgae 3:
This ambition which besets men, frequently brings them "acquainted with strange bed-fellows," and altho' doubts and darkness rest upon the question, as to the degrees of bitterness and hatred cherished against the friends of the administration, and comparatively, which hates them worst, anti-masons or the aristocratic party--shall we stand on debateable ground, called non-comittal, until we see who else is to be put in nomination.

--------------------------------------------------------------
THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS BAD WEATHER, ONLY WRONG CLOTHES

The Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs, pg. 12, has this from 1980. It's not explained that the original quote is from Ruskin. You think these London fellows would get a quote like this correct.


Display Ad 7 -- No Title
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 6, 1907. p. 5 (1 page):
There is no such thing as bad weather--only different kinds of good weather.

Never be at the mercy of the temperature--no use kicking at the inevitable.

Good cool Summer for horseback exercise.

_Cross English Saddles_


Birmingham Honors David Cox; Sun, Wind and Rain" Burlington Fine Arts Club
Special from Monitor BureauFRANK RUTTER.. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jan 25, 1926. p. 12 (1 page):
John Ruskin once observed to a friend of the present writer, who had injudiciously complained at the downpour through which they were trudging the streets of London, "Bad weather! There is no such thing as bad weather, sir. There are only different sorts of good weather."


VISITOR LAUDS SUNSHINE; Californians Do Not Appreciate Weather, He Says; Defends Climate of England
PHILIP HEWITT-MYRING. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Nov 24, 1927. p. 2 (1 page) :
Social life in England is planned on the assumption that no such thing as bad weather exists.


Other 14 -- No Title
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jan 30, 1928. p. 13 (1 page):
THERE is no such thing as bad weather--there are only different kinds of good weather.--Ruskin.


TO TEST TELEVISION OUTSIDE OF CITIES; RCA Plans Transmitter at Bound Brook, N.J., to Supplement Urban Experiments.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 17, 1929. p. 24 (1 page) :
Mr. Scarr said there was "no such thing as bad weather, just different kinds of good weather."


No Day Need Be Dark and Dreary
Special from Monitor Bureau. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 16, 1931. p. 8 (1 page):
IT HAS been wisely said that there is no such thing as bad weather, but only bad dressing for the weather.


Summer Suits, Smart Accents; Men of the Family Now May Keep Cool With Dignity Tropical Worsteds Evenings in Town
By Helen Johnson Keyes Special from The Christian Science Monitor Bureau. Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Jul 17, 1935. p. 8 (1 page):
IT WAS a wise man who once said, "There is no such thing as bad weather, only bad dressing for the weather." When this assertion was made, 20 and more years ago, there was a greater amount of bad dressing for the weather than there is today.


SEEN FROM THE Green Vergudo Hills; A PAGE CONDUCTED BY JOHN STEVEN McGROARTY
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jan 12, 1936. p. H2 (1 page):
For the man sound in body and serene of mind there is no such thing as bad weather; every sky has its beauty, and storms which whip the blood do make it pulse more vigorously.


OUR FLYING FUTURE---ABOVE THE WEATHER
D W TOMLINSON. Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Mar 7, 1937. p. I7 (2 pages)
First page:
...it follows that the air and the airplane offer the only potentialities for the future for travel in what seems the single known region where there is no such thing as bad weather.


Starting in the Rain
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: May 28, 1940. p. 12 (1 page):
This was what I had been waiting for, and I responded glibly, "Someone has said there is no such thing as bad weather, there are only good clothes."


Daily Anecdote; Let the Wind Blow!
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Apr 23, 1946. p. 17 (1 page) :
A friend was complaining to Ruskin about the weather.

"Why, Henry," rejoined the genial philosopher, "there's really no such thing as bad weather."

"No?" was the doubtful retort.

"No," replied Ruskin. "Sunshine is delicious, rain is refreshing, wind braces you up, snow is exhilarating--all different kinds of good weather!"


Display Ad 20 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Sep 4, 1950. p. C1 (1 page):
There's no such thing as bad weather in our water repellent gabardine Trooper Coat,...

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb  7 03:29:04 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2005 22:29:04 -0500
Subject: Watching paint dry (1959); The Hawk Talks (1952)
In-Reply-To: <E1Cxi1Z-0005o5-00@mx12.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.6.FEB.2005.222904.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 6, 2005, at 3:44 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Watching paint dry (1959); The Hawk Talks (1952)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> WATCHING PAINT DRY
> ...
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
> ...
> _'The  Shrike' Offered at Horseshoe_
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=0&did=464284862&SrchMode=1&sid=9&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=
> 309&VName=HNP&TS
> =1107673743&clientId=65882)
> GEOFFREY WARREN.  Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles,
> Calif.: May 19, 1959. p. 28 (1 page)
> ...
> Sitting in attendance at the Horseshoe Stage Theater presentation of
> Joseph
> Kramm's "The Shrike" is as exciting as watching paint dry.
> ...
> ...
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> --------------------------------------------------------
> THE HAWK TALKS
> ...
> Thanks, Wilson.
> ...
> I've tried all sorts of search terms for THE AFRO AMERICAN (Baltimore,
> but
> national coverage), Newspaperarchive, and ProQuest Historical
> Newspapers. If
> Down Beat doesn't come through, we'll have to wait for the complete
> digitization  of the Chicago Tribune. It's now at 1958, but in the
> 1960s and 1970s, "The
> Hawk"  was probably discussed at least once and readers probably wrote
> in.
> However,  with ProQuest, that could be this year, or next year...
> ...
> ...
> (PAPER OF RECORD)
> 27 December 1952, THE AFRO AMERICAN, pg. 16, col. 4:
> (The story is from Chicago--ed.)
> Woody Herman led the jazz fields with Duke Ellington in third and
> fourth
> places, respectively, with his "The Hawk Talks" and "Jam With Sam",
> "Johnny
> Hodges", "Castle Rock," fifth, and Illinois Jacquet's "Port of Rico,"
> ninth.

Now, that's odd. I'm familiar with the names and the music of everyone
on this list, but the only title that I definitely recognize is "Castle
Rock" by Johnny Hodges. I bought a copy of it when I was a second-year
student in high school. At the time, I fondly imagined that my future
career would be that of jazz alto [saek'sOf at nist].

And I'm really, really amazed by the number of citations in the
material quoted below that make it appear that the use of the term,
"The Hawk," as the name of a cold winter wind is restricted to, or a
peculiarity of, Chicago. I've been to Chicago only once and that was
during the summer. So, the subject of the wind didn't come up.

-Wilson Gray

> ...
> ...
> ...
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
> ...
> _BAND  BEATS JIVE AS PEARL BAILEY WEDS DRUMMER; London Crowd
> Jitterbugs at
> Ceremony _
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=8&did=498931892&SrchMode=1&sid=10&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT
> =309&VName=HNP&TS=1107677785&clientId=65882)
> Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago,  Ill.: Nov 20, 1952. p. A1
> (1
> page)
> ...
> As they came to the door, there was an outburst of jazz music. Outside
> the
> jimmy Walker band was playing Bellson's song, "The Hawk Talks."
> ...
>        18.
> _JAZZ  STYLES REVIVED; JAZZ MAESTRO _
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=17&did=95811234&SrchMode=1&sid=12&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT
> =309&VName=HNP&
> TS=1107678274&clientId=65882)
> By JOHN S.  WILSONJoe Covello from Black Star. New York Times
> (1857-Current
> file). New York, N.Y.: Sep 23, 1956. p. 138 (1 page)
> ...
> COLEMAN HAWKINS: The Hawk Talks (Decca).  The elder statesman of the
> tenor
> saxophone is plagued by strings and steel  guitars throughout most of
> this disk,
> but he manages tgo break through  occasionally with some of his
> customary
> strong, striking statements.

COLEMAN HAWKINS: The Hawk Talks ... "[t]he elder statesman of the tenor
saxophone ..."

and, FWIW, there was also

LESTER YOUNG, who recorded Lester Leaps In and was known as "the
president of the tenor saxophone," later shortened  to "prez."

-Wilson Gray


> ...
> ...
> _The  New Steelworkers; The New Steelworkers-'No Pride in This Dust' _
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=3&did=119453908&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=P
> ROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107675565&clientId=65882)
> By BENNETT KREMEN. New York Times  (1857-Current file). New York,
> N.Y.: Jan
> 7, 1973. p. 159 (2 pages)
> First page:
> The sun isn't up yet and the "Hawk," Chicago's cruel wind, lashes down
> on
> the thousands of workers huddling at bus stops.
> ...
> _CHICAGO'S  RAW NERVE_
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=6&did=115510434&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=
> 309&VName=HNP&TS=1107675180&cl
> ientId=65882)
> By Dirk Johnson. New  York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.:
> Feb 19,
> 1989. p. SM34 (6  pages)
> First page, first paragraph:
> IN THE SOUTH SIDE OF CHICAGO, in the lobby of a former union hall,
> there
> hangs an old photograph. Striking stockyard workers, blacks and
> whites, are
> huddled together for solidarity, and perhaps for warmth, against the
> fierce
> winter wind that whips off Lake Michigan, an infamous gale known here
> as "The
> Hawk." Across the photograph is emblazoned the slogan, "Negro and
> White--Unite  to
> Fight!"
> ...
> _Once  Stolid and Big-Shouldered, Now a Cinderella on the Lake_
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=7&did=117371465&SrchMode=1&sid=3&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VTy
> pe=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107674999&clientId=65882)
> By DIRK JOHNSON. New York Times  (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.:
> Jul 15,
> 1997. p. A10 (1 page)
> ...
> But not even the infamous winter wind, known here as The Hawk, appears
> likely to chill the property market here.
> ...
> ...
> ...
> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
> ...
>      _Daily Intelligencer _
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WzJJ0cfXWDaKID/
> 6NLMW2ueuV6jcLHxVxx4Q2VSrmvmWSDIoRKdgCkIF+CsZYmrz)  Sunday,
> January 12, 1986 _Doylestown,_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:
> doylestown+the+hawk+and+Lake+michigan+and+wind)  _Pennsylvania_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:
> pennsylvania+the+hawk+and+La
> ke+michigan+and+wind)      ...a HAWK. THE  HAWK is what THEy call THE
> WIND
> that screams  in off LAKE MICHIGAN.....on Page B 10 Rams meet Bears
> but  'THE
> HAWK' won't fly CHICAGO Barely a  week..
> ...
>      _Daily Herald _
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=KVP2nb8FYnqKID/
> 6NLMW2ug58hDIVYU1l4JdXWwSbvhcRaRK/rDzJ0IF+CsZYmrz)  Tuesday, October
> 29, 1985 _Chicago,_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:
> chicago+the+hawk+is+the+wind+and+Chicago)  _Illinois_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:
> illinois+the+hawk+is+the+wind+and+Chicago)
>  ...s last couple weeks.  CHICAGO's mighty HAWK blew off THE lake  AND
> right
> on down.....to find he was tradin' against  THE WIND. THE Sox were
> ready to
> wheel  AND..
> ...
>      _Daily Intelligencer _
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WzJJ0cfXWDaKID/
> 6NLMW2ueuV6jcLHxVxx4Q2VSrmvnovlBIiVNHPUIF+CsZYmrz)  Sunday,
> January 12, 1986 _Doylestown,_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:
> doylestown+the+hawk+and+Lake+michigan)  _Pennsylvania_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:
> pennsylvania+the+hawk+and+Lake+michig
> an)      ...THEy call THE  wind that screams in off LAKE MICHIGAN AND
> swirls
> through Soldier.....was 74. Almost hot enough to roast a HAWK.  THE
> HAWK is
> what..
> ...
>      _Syracuse Herald Journal _
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/
> 6NLMW2irVfGke03XYUXnd6keGXZjE20/2yzabr0IF+CsZYmrz)  Monday,
> September 30, 1991 _Syracuse,_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:
> syracuse+the+hawk+and+chicago+and+wind)  _New York_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:
> new_york+the+hawk+and+chicago+and+wi
> nd)      ...ORCHARD PARK THE  Bears call it THE HAWK THE WIND coming
> off
> Lake Michigan.....well in his first two seasons with CHICAGO's  Bears
> He spent
> most of  his..
>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Feb  7 05:16:51 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 00:16:51 -0500
Subject: Disraeli Quote on PQHN
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.001651.0500.>

On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 17:33:50 -0500, I wrote:

>On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 16:55:41 -0500, Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
>wrote:
>
>>If I can impose upon the list one more time:  Is anyone willing to check
>>ProQuest Historical Newspapers to find an 1893 Chicago Tribune occurrence
>>of the Disraeli quote about "my ancestors" (something along the line of my
>>ancestors were priests in the temple of Solomon when yours were
>>savages...)?  I would need the exact wording and dating.
>
>Chicago Daily Tribune, Jan 22, 1893. p. 38
>The people out there in the Kentucky County of Virginia resembled at the
>time Disraeli's description of their relative forefathers when they had
>called him a Jew: "When my ancestors were worshiping in the temple," he
>said, "yours were naked barbarians."
>
>But here are earlier cites:
>
>Washington Post, Mar 28, 1878, p. 2
>Jewish Times: Lady Rosebery has blue blood than her husband; her family
>tree is much more ancient than his. To quote Disraeli, her ancestors were
>princes in the temple when Lord Rosebery's ancestors were savages in the
>woods.
[snip]

(For "blue" in the above quote, read "bluer".)

I also see references to a very similar quote supposedly made by Senator
Judah Peter Benjamin of Louisiana, some time prior to the Civil War
(during which time he was Secretary of War for the Confederacy).

----------
http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~mendele/vol03/vol03.234
Mendele: Yiddish literature and language
Vol. 3.234, February 13, 1994

Date: Sat Feb 12 14:32:59 1994
From: BB7M000 <BB7M at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Benjamin said it first

Judah P. Benjamin did say in the US Senate prior to 1861 in a reply
to another senator," The gentleman will please remember that when
his half-civilized ancestors were hunting the wild boar in the
forests of Silesia, mine were the princes of the earth". This
putdown may or not have carried across the Atlantic, but probably
the seminary quotation was the reply made by Benjamin Disraeli (1801
-1881) in the House of Commons when taunted by Irish Daniel
O'Connel, "Yes, I am a Jew, and when the ancestors of the right
honorable gentleman were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine
were priests in the temple of Solomon". George Bernard Shaw was
certainly aware of that putdown, and adopted it in his play "Caesar
and Cleopatra". Viper-tounged, mini-brained Henry Mencken(1880-1956)
probably saw the play and adapted it to his anti-semitic insult. Vi
a tzibeleh.

Hirsh Schipper (I have not checked Caesar and Cleopatra)
----------

The earliest mention I've found on Proquest for the Judah Benjamin story
is in a New York Times "Queries and Answers" column of July 10, 1921, in a
response to a query about the Disraeli quote.  An earlier source is given
for the Judah Benjamin version: "Reminiscences of Sixty Years in the
National Metropolis" by Benjamin Perley Poore (Philadelphia, 1886).


--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Feb  7 06:47:09 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 01:47:09 -0500
Subject: Disraeli Quote on PQHN
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.014709.0500.>

Apologies for following up on my own post again...

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 00:16:51 -0500, I wrote:

>I also see references to a very similar quote supposedly made by Senator
>Judah Peter Benjamin of Louisiana, some time prior to the Civil War
>(during which time he was Secretary of War for the Confederacy).

I found this on Amazon:

----------
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0029099110
_Judah P. Benjamin_ by Eli Evans (Free Press, 1988), pp. 96-7

Once, during the debate on the extension of slavery into Kansas, Senator
Ben Wade of Ohio goaded Benjamin [referring to "Israelites with Egyptian
principles"]. ...
There is some debate as to Benjamin's answer, and historians differ as to
whether the remarks attributable to Benjamin were actually uttered by him,
but the legend of his answer exists and should be recorded. "It is true
that I am a Jew," he is reported to have said, "and when my ancestors were
receiving their Ten Commandments from the immediate hand of Deity, amidst
the thunderings and lightnings of Mount Sinai, the ancestors of my
opponent were herding swine in the forests of Great Britain."
Historians provide at least four different versions of when, where, and to
whom that retort was made. Disraeli is also said to have made a similar
one. The quote cannot be verified, but the statement remains a part of the
legend of Judah P. Benjamin, even though it indicates an uncharacteristic
acknowledgement in public of his Jewishness.
----------

There's also a footnote with references to the differing accounts of the
supposed comment.


--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb  7 06:59:53 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 01:59:53 EST
Subject: Flamboozled; Dipsy-doodle; Zoot Suit; 29th Century Gabriel (1942)
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.015953.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

20TH CENTURY GABRIEL (ERSKINE HAWKINS)
...
I got tired and depressed and didn't read much of DOWN BEAT. No "hawk." I
only wish I could help Chicago more.
...
...
1 January 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 14, col. 3 illustration:
_Gabriel Drew Him_
(Illustration)
Lucky Millinder, the sepia band leader who has made a nice comeback in  1941,
is caricatured by fellow band leader Erskine Hawkins, the 20th Century
Gabriel. Like Xavier Cugat, Hawkins wields a mean pencil in addition to blowing  a
hot horn. <illinder, with Sister Rosetta Tharpe as an added attraction, has
been playing the Savoy Ballroom, New York.
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
FLAMBOOZLED
...
The HDAS has 1956, probably from FLA(BBERGAST( + (BAM)BOOZLED.
...
I would think it's FLAM (as in flim-flam) + bamboozled.
...
...
1 January 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 5, col. 1:
_"I Was Flamboozled!"_
_Says Ballroom Op,_
_After Losing 20 G's_
...
Chicago--"I think I was flamboozled," said Mrs. W. L. Stearns, former
manager of the Palladium ballroom here, after she and her husband has just  dropped
$20,000 in the operation of the mammoth ballroom.
...
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
DIPSY-DOODLE
...
The HDAS has various citations from 1943, 1951, 1954, 1983.
...
...
15 June 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 4, col. 5:
Ben Pollack came out of the east with a new slang expression,
"_dipsydoodlers_," referring to those location jobs on which the musicians are  expected to
dig into their own pockets for office commissions, radio line  charges and,
frequently, a direct bonus or premium to the operator  himself.
...
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
ZOOT SUIT
...
15 March 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 12, col. 4:
_Pot Wants an "Au Reet" Zoot Suit_
(Photo--ed.)
You're not hep these days unless you're wearing a zoot suit, is the report
among swing musicians today. Pot, Pan and Skillet, currently touring with the
Duke Ellington ork, are knocking themselves out on a "Zoot Suit" sketch,
written  by Sid Kuller. The trio introduced the sketch calling for a "zoot suit
with a  reat pleat, a sadistic cape with a murderistic drape, shoulders extended
solid  as intended, streamlined lining and drape-lined pockets, 53 at the knee
and 7  inch cuffs." Skillet and Pan are shown here carefully measuring the
tape on Pot  so he gives his directions for the "ample 53."
...
...
1 April 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 4 ad:
KAY KYSER AND HIS ORCHESTRA
Latest Columbia Recordings
"A ZOOT SUIT"
(FOR MY SUNDAY GAL)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb  7 07:29:47 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 02:29:47 EST
Subject: Gaper's Block (1964)
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.022947.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

_http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chicago/chi-0502060339feb06,1,534741
9.story?coll=chi-newslocalchicago-hed_
(http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chicago/chi-0502060339feb06,1,5347419.story?coll=chi-newslocalchicago-hed)
...
How to create a gapers' block

Published February 6,  2005

STREETERVILLE -- A sculpture featuring a car and trailer that  appear to have
burrowed out of the ground was installed last week in the front  plaza of the
Museum of Contemporary Art.
...
...
...
"Gaper's block" is not in DARE. It's not in the digitized Chicago Tribune
through 1958, but it appears in the digitized Chicago Herald in 1964, FWIW, it's
 another Chicago term I'm looking for. There is a Chicago blog by this  name.
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
_Traffic  Talk_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=120303416&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1107760493&clientId=
65882)
By William Safire. New  York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb
28, 1982. p. SM9 (2  pages)
First page:
Such obstructive gaping is called a _gaper's block_ in Denver.
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
     _Great Bend Daily Tribune _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WSgtrs8BeYeKID/6NLMW2ksQtBiZB3MKmWxjmn7howdq37n7eymwXEIF+CsZYmrz)
Monday, April 17, 1972 _Great Bend,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:great_bend+gaper)  _Kansas_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:kansas+gaper)
...on all ex- pressways They  include the gaper s BLOCK This phenomenon
occurs..

...
_Gettysburg Times _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=qfOSkbCfQu2KID/6NLMW2u4CJdPTzh8JJKATKtdUZyvHiBf35r4+zA==)  Tuesday, April 18, 1972
_Gettysburg,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:gettysburg+gaper)  _Pennsylvania_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:pennsylvania+gaper)
...on all ex- pressways.  GAPER'S BLOCK They include the GAPER'S
ilock.....Striders1 A team of Kim Diane Donna Gaper Crawling Cop Face  Chicago Drivers..

...
_Portsmouth Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9cbxNIiVHYuKID/6NLMW2gPTCfGrowNbRRP71FGuZYhn6bmKDYv9NUIF+CsZYmrz)  Tuesday, April 18,
1972 _Portsmouth,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:portsmouth+gaper)  _New Hampshire_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_hampshire+gaper)
...GAPER'S  BLOCK' Snarls Chicago Traffic.....on all expressways. They
include  the GAPER'S i BLOCK. This phenomenon  occurs..

...
_Stevens Point Daily Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2grWY8g6q2N56pvfyUPj4SEx+u8nrROkXkIF+CsZYmrz)  Tuesday,
April 18, 1972 _Stevens Point,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:stevens_point+gaper)  _Wisconsin_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+gaper)
...on all expressways. They  include the GAPER'S BLOCK. This phenomenon
occurs..

...
_Sheboygan Press _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2jcGrluF/b58lyRTiZg0KfD6srKHKMWzU0IF+CsZYmrz)  Saturday, August 07,
1971 _Sheboygan,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:sheboygan+gaper)  _Wisconsin_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+gaper)
...Santa Claus in August  caused a small "GAPER'S BLOCK" Thursday night on
the..

...
_Journal Tribune _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ONKPmHWqWNiKID/6NLMW2ruYKlQDWSmNANcjjggtKvwlGOXef9wrOEIF+CsZYmrz)  Tuesday, April 18,
1972 _Marysville,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:marysville+gaper)  _Ohio_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+gaper)
...on all expressways. They  include the GAPER'S BLOCK. This phenomenon
occurs.....city  of Kompong Trach are trying to BLOCK any attempt by troops of the
North..

...
_Fond Du Lac Reporter _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2gG9HM8fjLExYCQi52ltJOC1Mq489n0gpUIF+CsZYmrz)  Tuesday, April
18, 1972 _Fond Du Lac,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:fond_du_lac+gaper)  _Wisconsin_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+gaper)
...on all expressways. They  include the GAPER'S BLOCK. This phenomenon
occurs..

...
     _Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=KVP2nb8FYnqKID/6NLMW2jFom0sZsRopWYB/ff/UGE59n1ouyEeVe0IF+CsZYmrz)  Friday, February 16,
1968 _Chicago,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:chicago+gapers+block+AND)  _Illinois_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+gapers+block+AND)
...rush hour. McGann  said a long GAPERS' BLOCK was caused. Out
directing.....two railroad crossings within half a BLOCK from  each other create added..

...

...
     _Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=KVP2nb8FYnqKID/6NLMW2naH2ihaJHuZo6Rk/jzcZ4yoKbjI4auPDEIF+CsZYmrz)  Friday, September 20,
1968 _Chicago,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:chicago+gapers+block+AND)  _Illinois_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+gapers+block+AND)
...the rest of the gang.  Not to mention a GAPERS' BLOCK or two...or that
dribble..

...

     _Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=lrCUoQlefzKKID/6NLMW2rdMsm1Rxbah2V1CY9NEKxsxodwgGhsRMkIF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday, July 16, 1964
_Chicago,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:chicago+gapers+block+AND)  _Illinois_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+gapers+block+AND)
...this you may save a  pile or lessen the GAPERS BLOCK which can cause far
more..

...

     _Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=KVP2nb8FYnqKID/6NLMW2lgUAQPMaj1X0z3vXnXljQ4Ro/YfKFXdiUIF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday, September 22,
1966  _Chicago,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:chicago+gapers+block+AND)  _Illinois_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+gapers+block+AND)
...the rest of the gang.  Not to mention a GAPERS' BLOCK or two or that
dribble  oi..

...

     _Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=KVP2nb8FYnqKID/6NLMW2naH2ihaJHuZo6Rk/jzcZ4ydmV+TO3BqkEIF+CsZYmrz)  Friday, September 20,
1968 _Chicago,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:chicago+gapers+block+AND)  _Illinois_ (http:/
/www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+gapers+block+AND)
...the rest of the gang.  Not to mention a GAPERS' BLOCK or two...or that
dribble..

...

     _Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=KVP2nb8FYnqKID/6NLMW2p/Yh5RFgEmHqgHiv7UNQP2k7fTcognJ/UIF+CsZYmrz)  Friday, May 24, 1968
_Chicago,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:chicago+gapers+block+AND)  _Illinois_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+gapers+block+AND)
...Saturday afternoon  strollers formed a GAPERS' BLOCK as a discussion in
deep..

...

     _Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=KVP2nb8FYnqKID/6NLMW2lgUAQPMaj1X0z3vXnXljQ59OJPlYDNyVEIF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday, September 22,
1966  _Chicago,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:chicago+gapers+block+AND)  _Illinois_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:illinois+gapers+block+AND)      ...the rest of the gang.  Not to
mention a GAPERS' BLOCK or two...or that  dribble..


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb  7 07:54:05 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 02:54:05 EST
Subject: Thai Suki, Son in Law Tofu, Three Musketeers
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.025405.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT?--
Borobudur Cafe (Indonesian), 129 East 4th Street (between 1st and 2nd
Avenue). It was almost closed. I just had the Gado-Gado. There aren't too many
Indonesian places around. Nice and cheap.
Serendipity 3, East 60th Street between Third and Second Avenues. It wasn't
too busy after the Super Bowl. It's only three blocks away, but it's always
filled with tourists. I finally had the Frrrrozen Hot Chocolate and I'm gonna
be  up all damn night.
...
...
PUKIK, 71 First Avenue, is a new restaurant that I'll probably try on
Monday. It has an interesting menu. I'll probably get the "Son in Law Tofu,"
although by law no one can marry me.
...
...
THREE MUSKETEERS
Chayote, bok shoy and shitake mushrrom w. garlic sauce.
...
THAI SUKI
Glass noodle and vegetables w. red garlic chili sauce.
...
SON IN LAW TOFU
Crusted soft tofu w. sweet and sour tamarind sauce.
...
...
THAI SUKI--2,340 Google hits, 6 Google Groups hits
...
(GOOGLE)
...
_RESTAURANT WONDERLAND | COCA RESTAURANT_
(http://www.wonderland.to/pc/english/coca.html)
... 44years Loved by 9 nations Since it was opened the first COCA  Restaurant
in
Bangkok,Capital of Thailand in 1957, COCA has been famous for  "Thai-suki"
and "COCA ...
www.wonderland.to/pc/english/coca.html - 10k - _Cached_
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:Tp4e0qWM-TcJ:www.wonderland.to/pc/english/coca.html+"thai+suki
"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.wonderland.to/pc/english/coca.html)
...
...
SON IN LAW TOFU--11 Google hits,l 0 Google Groups hits
...
(GOOGLE)
...

_Menus - Reangthai  Restaurant - Thai Cuisine - Tallahassee, Florida_
(http://www.reangthai.com/menu.cfm)
... Tofu with Black bean sauce. Son-in-law  Tofu Fried tofu topped with sweet
and mildly
spicy sauce and ground  peanuts. Spicy Tofu With vegetables in choo chee
sauce ...
www.reangthai.com/menu.cfm - 22k - _Cached_
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:vOWKVTmxHw8J:www.reangthai.com/menu.cfm+"son+in+law+tofu"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)
 - _Similar pages_
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.reangthai.com/menu.cfm)
...
_Crain's New York Business news, lists, rankings, directory and  ..._
(http://www.newyorkbusiness.com/article.cms?a=f&articleId=22316)
... 20. The owners of Highline and  Peep will showcase the Thai vegetarian
cuisine
of chef Thavatchai  Waraloardgoson, including "Son in Law Tofu.".  ...
www.newyorkbusiness.com/  article.cms?a=f&articleId=22316 - 34k - _Cached_
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:HWy5WIUL_0YJ:www.newyorkbusiness.com/articl
e.cms?a=f&articleId=22316+"son+in+law+tofu"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar
pages_
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.newyorkbusiness.com/article.cms?a=f&articleId=22316)
...
_The Stanford Daily Online Edition_
(http://daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page=content&id=5864&repository=0001_article)
... Janta (mediocre Indian up the street) and certainly not with  white
collar Spago
(though it might be fun to go in there and demand Crab  Balls or Son-In-Law
Tofu ...
daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page=content&  id=5864&repository=0001_article - 24k
- Supplemental Result - _Cached_
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:yaecftNP-5QJ:daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page=content&id=5864&repository=0001_article+"s
on+in+law+tofu"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:daily.stanford.edu/tempo?page=content&id=5864&
repository=0001_article)


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Feb  7 10:35:20 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:35:20 +0000
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <200502042332.j14NWFKa019149@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.103520.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 4/2/05 11:17 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
> In addition to its other meanings, I know it as a synonym of "cunt,"
> which, though occasionally used, doesn't have a lot of traction amongst
> the bruz and cuz, for some random reason.
>
> -Wilson
>
>From which we get 'play stink-finger', presumably.

Conversely, there is a porn video series featuring simultaneous vaginal and
anal penetration titled 'One in the Pink, One in the Stink'.

-Neil Crawford



> On Feb 4, 2005, at 2:23 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>> Double-entendre?  No.  I can't even think of one, in fact.  It's
>> definitely a
>> single entendre.
>>
>> -doug
>>
>> In a message dated 1/21/2005 8:52:59 AM Central Standard Time,
>> wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes:
>> Is there a double-entendre in there for you, doug? For me there is.
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>> On Jan 21, 2005, at 2:02 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM>
>>> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Anecdote Alert: "Stank" has been my body-odor noun of choice at least
>>> since
>>> high school.
>>>
>>> -doug
>>>
>>> -dsb
>>> Douglas S. Bigham
>>> Department of Linguistics
>>> University of Texas - Austin
>>> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html
>>>
>>
>> -dsb
>> Douglas S. Bigham
>> Department of Linguistics
>> University of Texas - Austin
>> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html
>>


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Feb  7 10:36:36 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:36:36 +0000
Subject: question
In-Reply-To: <200502042332.j14NWFKa019148@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.103636.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 4/2/05 11:25 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> Subject:      Re: question
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> FWIW, I've always considered "not to worry" to be an annoying Briticism.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
Don't worry - be happy.

-Annoying Britisher




> On Feb 4, 2005, at 4:51 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>> Subject:      Fwd: question
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>> forwarded from the Yale Rabbi via a colleague,.  Anyone know?
>>
>>
>>
>> larry
>> ==============
>>
>>
>> The Rabbi, Jim Ponet, asks:
>>
>> ... explain if you will the structure "Not to worry."  Does it emulate
>> anything Yiddish.  Then there's "to kill for,"  "to die for."
>>
>> It does follow a Hebrew structure arguable.  But I doubt that origin.
>>
>> --- end forwarded text
>>


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Feb  7 10:46:31 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:46:31 +0000
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <200502061522.j16FMh08030463@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.104631.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 6/2/05 3:22 pm, Beckymercuri at AOL.COM at Beckymercuri at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beckymercuri at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Re: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> In a message dated 2/5/2005 4:27:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, douglas at NB.NET
> writes:
> The use of "sammie/sammy" as a (nick)name/slang term for "sandwich" is
>> new to me.
>
> I surely don't recall ever encountering it either. "Sangwich" and "sammich"
> (and "sanwich") are just casual pronunciation variants, I think, but
> "sammy" (along with "sangy" and "sanny" and "sandy" and "sandwy" maybe) is
> something else: baby-talk? advertiser-talk? diner-lingo?

Here in the UK (and especially in Liverpool) they've always been 'sarnies'
or 'butties' (as in 'chip butty').

_Neil Crawford
>
> I wonder what the age and gender distribution of "sammy" users would look
> like.
>
> -- Doug Wilson
> Doug:
>
> I think you may be correct when you say "baby-talk," which is what I sort of
> inferred when I mentioned that the word "sammie" (or "sammy") appeared to be a
> term of endearment for a favorite American dish. I've never seen it in diner
> lingo.
>
> If this is of any help to you, I've noticed that both males and females, aged
> 20 to around 60, have used the term. Geographically, I've noted that it's
> primarily an east and west coast term - but with people relocating all over
> the
> country, who knows? I was surprised to see it in the Houston Chronicle
> article,
> but perhaps the author was from Pennsylvania, given her hope for a Super Bowl
> between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia (and her knowledge of the Primanti
> sandwich, a local favorite in Pittsburgh).
>
> Becky


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Feb  7 12:20:46 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:20:46 -0500
Subject: Disraeli Quote on PQHN
In-Reply-To: <53075.69.142.143.59.1107753411.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.072046.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> The earliest mention I've found on Proquest for the Judah Benjamin story
> is in a New York Times "Queries and Answers" column of July 10, 1921, in a
> response to a query about the Disraeli quote.  An earlier source is given
> for the Judah Benjamin version: "Reminiscences of Sixty Years in the
> National Metropolis" by Benjamin Perley Poore (Philadelphia, 1886).

Bartlett's gives the Poore reference, but I have looked at that book and
am unable to find it there.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb  7 13:12:36 2005
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 05:12:36 -0800
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
In-Reply-To: <0ae6d50f6afb0e31f836243b99a10fdb@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.051236.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I hear "scuzz", "scuzzy", "scuzzbag", "scumbag" (not
the "other" meaning), and "dirtbag" used frequently.



--- Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:

> Oh, please, Jon!;-) Sterile pseudo-slang and fake
> vulgarities designed
> to pass censorship have no legs and are totally
> devoid of soul. Have
> you ever heard anyone seriously use "scuzz[whatever]
> or even that hoary
> old chestnut, "scumbag," in real life? Well,
> "scumbag," perhaps, in its
> other meaning of "safe," i.e. "condom."
>
> Of course, you may very well be completely right.
>
> -Wilson
>
> On Feb 4, 2005, at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society
> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter
> <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> >
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> >
> > "Scumbag" comes close:
> >
> > "Isn't he the scuzzcrack who fired you from
> Yearbook?"..."You fired
> > me, remember? Because you're a scuzzcrack!"
> >
> > JL
> > Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Wilson Gray
> > Subject: Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> >
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> >
> > What is the meaning of "scuzzcrack"? It's not as
> obvious as that of
> > "pimpmobile."
> >
> > -Wilson
> >
> > On Feb 3, 2005, at 10:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> wrote:
> >
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> >> Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> >>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> -
> >> --------
> >>
> >> The possibility that Wilson may be the inglorious
> Milton who coined
> >> "pimpmobile" reminds me that back on Oct. 22 I
> reported two
> >> occurrences of the word "scuzzcrack" on CBS's
> "Joan of Arcadia" that
> >> evening, a word which had not appeared on the Net
> or anywhere else
> >> that I was aware of.
> >>
> >> Despite its simultaneous reception in millions of
> American homes,
> >> there is still no evidence of wider usage more
> than 90 days later.
> >>
> >> So if Wilson set "pimpmobile" afloat in 1963
> without the aid of mass
> >> media, we reasonably might not expect it to
> surface till sometime in
> >> the mid 22nd century.
> >>
> >> A quick Google check uncovers about one quarter
> million examples of
> >> "pimpmobile" on the Web alone. I am sorry to
> report, therefore, that
> >> any claim in favor of Wilson's unique ownership
> of this word for
> >> copyright, trademark, or servicemark purposes is
> likely to be
> >> staunchly contested.
> >>
> >> JL
> >>
> >> Wilson Gray wrote:
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >> Poster: Wilson Gray
> >> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> >>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> -
> >> --------
> >>
> >> On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:38 AM, Jonathan Lighter
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header
> >>> -----------------------
> >>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> >>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> >>>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> -
> >>> -
> >>> --------
> >>>
> >>> Thanks, Wilson. The military sense must be
> fairly obscure, since I
> >>> just discovered it and it seems to go back to
> the '50s among Morse
> >>> operators. Pretty expressive, though.
> >>>
> >>> As for "pimpmobile," it seems to have taken a
> full decade for your
> >>> creation to have reached the print media.
> >>>
> >>> JL
> >>
> >> You know what gives me the jaws (there's a bit in
> HDAS about this use
> >> of "jaws"; can't recall at the moment whether it
> has this particular
> >> version) about "pimpmobile"? There's simply no
> way to find out whether
> >> I'm really *the* source. It's such an obvious
> coinage that any number
> >> of other people could have come up with it any
> number of times. It's
> >> even possible that the first person to use the
> word in print coined it
> >> independently. Sigh! No 15 minutes of fame for
> me.
> >>
> >> -Wilson
> >>
> >>
> >>> Wilson Gray wrote:
> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header
> >>> -----------------------
> >>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>> Poster: Wilson Gray
> >>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> >>>
>
---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> -
> >>> -
> >>> --------
> >>>
> >>> When I was a teenager in the 'Fifties in St.
> Louis,
> >>> "dittybop(p)er"/diddybop(per)" was a fairly mild
> insult that meant
> >>> something like "wannabe hipster." There was no
> verb form.
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately, when I was in The War, I didn't
> have occasion to come
> >>> into contact with any Morse-code operators. More
> useless information:
> >>> when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it
> sounds like Morse code
> >>> to
> >>> the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the
> equipment available in
> >>> the
> >>> late '50's.
> >>>
> >>> -Wilson Gray
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the
> mail header
> >>>> -----------------------
> >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> >>>> Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> >>>>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>
=== message truncated ===


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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From goranson at DUKE.EDU  Mon Feb  7 13:35:08 2005
From: goranson at DUKE.EDU (Stephen Goranson)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 08:35:08 -0500
Subject: Judah Benjamin (was Disraeli Quote on PQHN)
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.083508.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Poore, vol. 1, pages 438/439:

Senator Judah Peter Benjamin was a dapper little gentleman, with a small
waist, who was always faultlessly dressed, and who was one of the hardest
working members of the Senate. born a British subject on one of the West India
[sic] Islands, he became a citizen of the /[439] United States by domicile
very early in life. His boyhood was spent in a small fruit-shop kept by his
father at Charleston, but wealthy Hebrews aided him in obtaining an education,
and his indomitable will enabled him in due time to enter upon the practice of
law at New Orleans, There, where nearly all legal proceedings were then
duplicated in French and English, his perfect familiarity with both languages,
with his ability and eloquence, soon enabled him to amass a fortune. He
married a Gentile, but he was always satistied with the Hebrew faith. One day
when a Senator of German extraction taunted him with being a Jew, he said, in
his silvery tones: "The gentleman will please remember that when his half-
civilized ancestors were hunting the wild boar in the forests of Silesia, mine
were the princes of the earth." The Senate was quite effectually silenced.

best,
Stephen Goranson


Quoting Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Disraeli Quote on PQHN
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>
> On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>
> > The earliest mention I've found on Proquest for the Judah Benjamin story
> > is in a New York Times "Queries and Answers" column of July 10, 1921, in a
> > response to a query about the Disraeli quote.  An earlier source is given
> > for the Judah Benjamin version: "Reminiscences of Sixty Years in the
> > National Metropolis" by Benjamin Perley Poore (Philadelphia, 1886).
>
> Bartlett's gives the Poore reference, but I have looked at that book and
> am unable to find it there.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Feb  7 13:49:08 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:49:08 +0000
Subject: composed salad adj
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.134908.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

'There was a very big platter of finger sandwiches and composed salad plates
with asparagus, cherry tomatoes, and artichoke hearts.'

-Robert B. Parker, 'Back Story', Putnam, NY, 2003 (No Exit Press, Harpenden,
2003, 43)


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Feb  7 14:17:02 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:17:02 -0500
Subject: Judah Benjamin (was Disraeli Quote on PQHN)
In-Reply-To: <1107783308.42076e8c8b2f7@webmail.duke.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.091702.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005, Stephen Goranson wrote:

> married a Gentile, but he was always satistied with the Hebrew faith. One day
> when a Senator of German extraction taunted him with being a Jew, he said, in
> his silvery tones: "The gentleman will please remember that when his half-
> civilized ancestors were hunting the wild boar in the forests of Silesia, mine
> were the princes of the earth." The Senate was quite effectually silenced.

Thanks to Stephen for finding this, which I had missed!

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb  7 14:52:56 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:52:56 -0500
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <E1Cy6Ep-00027C-00@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.095256.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 7, 2005, at 5:35 AM, neil wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       neil <neil at TYPOG.CO.UK>
> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> on 4/2/05 11:17 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
>>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----
> --> -
>> In addition to its other meanings, I know it as a synonym of "cunt,"
>> which, though occasionally used, doesn't have a lot of traction
>> amongst
>> the bruz and cuz, for some random reason.
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
> From which we get 'play stink-finger', presumably.

I make the same presumption. FWIW, the standard black pronunciation is
"STANK-fang-a." Wherever possible, the phonetic representations of
slang terms are made to conform to the phonetic rules of Southern
English. (There's even a jazz tune whose title is a pun based on this
custom: "D-Natural Blues," i.e. "[(I got) dI naeC@] blues," as opposed
to its literal meaning as the title of a tune in the key of D-natural.)
Once upon  a time, I thought that this term was a universal of American
guy-talk or that its meaning would be immediately transparent   among
guys who'd never heard it before. I've since discovered that it's
totally unknown on the white-guy street and, even though I've always
used the standard pronunciation when talking to them.

>
> Conversely, there is a porn video series featuring simultaneous
> vaginal and
> anal penetration titled 'One in the Pink, One in the Stink'.

Uh, I'm not conversant with that cinematic genre, Neil. ;-)

-Wilson Gray

>
> -Neil Crawford
>
>
>
>> On Feb 4, 2005, at 2:23 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM>
>>> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Double-entendre?  No.  I can't even think of one, in fact.  It's
>>> definitely a
>>> single entendre.
>>>
>>> -doug
>>>
>>> In a message dated 1/21/2005 8:52:59 AM Central Standard Time,
>>> wilson.gray at RCN.COM writes:
>>> Is there a double-entendre in there for you, doug? For me there is.
>>>
>>> -Wilson
>>>
>>> On Jan 21, 2005, at 2:02 AM, Douglas Bigham wrote:
>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster:       Douglas Bigham <TlhovwI at AOL.COM>
>>>> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --
>>>> -
>>>> --------
>>>>
>>>> Anecdote Alert: "Stank" has been my body-odor noun of choice at
>>>> least
>>>> since
>>>> high school.
>>>>
>>>> -doug
>>>>
>>>> -dsb
>>>> Douglas S. Bigham
>>>> Department of Linguistics
>>>> University of Texas - Austin
>>>> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html
>>>>
>>>
>>> -dsb
>>> Douglas S. Bigham
>>> Department of Linguistics
>>> University of Texas - Austin
>>> http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html
>>>
>


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb  7 15:07:24 2005
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 07:07:24 -0800
Subject: "sammies"; was:  Becky Mercuri's book  American Sandwich
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050206000348.02f84150@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.070724.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've often had 'soup and sammie' for lunch.

Ed


--- "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> wrote:

> The "sammie" which appeared in the ADS-L archives
> was among a group of New
> Zealand words.
>
> Here is a large list of NZ-isms, including "sammie"
> and other similar
> things such as "footie" = "football", "pozzie" =
> "position", "breckie" =
> "breakfast", etc.
>
> http://chris.heathens.co.nz/NZese.html
>
> "Sammie" = "sandwich" fits naturally enough in the
> NZ list.
>
> If "sammie" = "sandwich" is conventional in the US,
> there should be
> numerous examples in fiction: are there? It's hard
> to search since mostly
> "Sammy" is a name; but I checked several expressions
> such as "ham sammie",
> "have a sammie", etc. at Amazon search-inside and I
> don't see any "sammie"
> = "sandwich". Maybe it's very new in the US?
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
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From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Mon Feb  7 15:15:18 2005
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 09:15:18 -0600
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <200502071452.j17EqxA3022335@mx1.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.091518.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray wrote, of "stinkfinger":
> Once upon  a time, I thought that this term was a universal of American
> guy-talk or that its meaning would be immediately transparent   among
> guys who'd never heard it before. I've since discovered that it's
> totally unknown on the white-guy street and, even though I've always
> used the standard pronunciation when talking to them.

I've heard the phrase used by a white acquaintance of mine, using the
standard pronunciation; he was a career US Navy man, serving from
the mid-'60s to the mid-'80s, and I'm absolutely certain that that's where
he encountered it.

Jim Parish


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb  7 15:21:58 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:21:58 -0500
Subject: Flamboozled; Dipsy-doodle; Zoot Suit; 29th Century Gabriel
 (1942)
In-Reply-To: <E1Cy2sH-0004wX-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.102158.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 7, 2005, at 1:59 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Flamboozled; Dipsy-doodle; Zoot Suit; 29th Century
> Gabriel (1942)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> 20TH CENTURY GABRIEL (ERSKINE HAWKINS)
> ...
> I got tired and depressed and didn't read much of DOWN BEAT. No
> "hawk." I
> only wish I could help Chicago more.
> ...
> ...
> 1 January 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 14, col. 3 illustration:
> _Gabriel Drew Him_
> (Illustration)
> Lucky Millinder

As fate would have it, it was Lucky Millinder and his band that
recorded the instrumental, "D-Natural Blues," that I mentioned in an
earlier post.

-Wilson Gray

> , the sepia band leader who has made a nice comeback in  1941,
> is caricatured by fellow band leader Erskine Hawkins, the 20th Century
> Gabriel. Like Xavier Cugat, Hawkins wields a mean pencil in addition
> to blowing  a
> hot horn. Millinder, with Sister Rosetta Tharpe as an added
> attraction, has
> been playing the Savoy Ballroom, New York.
> ...
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> --------------------------------------------------------
> FLAMBOOZLED
> ...
> The HDAS has 1956, probably from FLA(BBERGAST( + (BAM)BOOZLED.
> ...
> I would think it's FLAM (as in flim-flam) + bamboozled.
> ...
> ...
> 1 January 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 5, col. 1:
> _"I Was Flamboozled!"_
> _Says Ballroom Op,_
> _After Losing 20 G's_
> ...
> Chicago--"I think I was flamboozled," said Mrs. W. L. Stearns, former
> manager of the Palladium ballroom here, after she and her husband has
> just  dropped
> $20,000 in the operation of the mammoth ballroom.
> ...
> ...
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> --------------------------------------------------------
> DIPSY-DOODLE
> ...
> The HDAS has various citations from 1943, 1951, 1954, 1983.
> ...
> ...
> 15 June 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 4, col. 5:
> Ben Pollack came out of the east with a new slang expression,
> "_dipsydoodlers_," referring to those location jobs on which the
> musicians are  expected to
> dig into their own pockets for office commissions, radio line  charges
> and,
> frequently, a direct bonus or premium to the operator  himself.
> ...
> ...
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> --------------------------------------------------------
> ZOOT SUIT
> ...
> 15 March 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 12, col. 4:
> _Pot Wants an "Au Reet" Zoot Suit_

"Au Reet" is probably eye-dialect for "all reet," a term still popular
down to the early '50's, like the phrase, "[she's] reet, petite, and
gone," i.e. "very attractive."

-Wilson Gray

> (Photo--ed.)
> You're not hep these days unless you're wearing a zoot suit, is the
> report
> among swing musicians today. Pot, Pan and Skillet, currently touring
> with the
> Duke Ellington ork, are knocking themselves out on a "Zoot Suit"
> sketch,
> written  by Sid Kuller. The trio introduced the sketch calling for a
> "zoot suit
> with a  reat pleat, a sadistic cape with a murderistic drape,
> shoulders extended
> solid  as intended, streamlined lining and drape-lined pockets, 53 at
> the knee
> and 7  inch cuffs."

No "drape shape" or "bluff cuffs"? ;-)

-Wilson Gray

>  Skillet and Pan are shown here carefully measuring the
> tape on Pot  so he gives his directions for the "ample 53."
> ...
> ...
> 1 April 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 4 ad:
> KAY KYSER

There was, in the
>  AND HIS ORCHESTRA
> Latest Columbia Recordings
> "A ZOOT SUIT"
> (FOR MY SUNDAY GAL)
>


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Mon Feb  7 16:10:33 2005
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:10:33 +0000
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <E1CyAeK-0002hM-8m@hausdorff.zen.co.uk>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.161033.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

c.1879?1935 in G. Legman _The Limerick_ (1953) 112: There was a young
curate of Eltham / Who wouldn?t fuck girls, but he felt ?em. / In lanes
he would linger / And play at stink-finger [etc.]

Definitely white (white-collared even) and according to Legman probably
extant from the late 19C. Irving Welsh gives the Scots (and again white)
alternative:

2001 Welsh Glue 39: Ah settles her doon oan the couch giein her the
stinky-pinky for a bit, sliding ma hand up that wee kilt and inside her
pants.

[Note to Jon Lighter: be relieved you don't have transcribe, and indeed
translate Mr W.]

Of course we Brits are equally enamoured of 'finger-pie', hence Lennon &
McCartney in 'Penny Lane' (1967): Penny Lane is in my ears and in my
eyes, / A four [sc. four penny-worth] of fish and finger pie / In summer.

Whether the two Fabs were being dead smart (as they might have put it)
and making a sly reference to fish = woman = vagina, I cannot say.

Jonathon Green


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb  7 18:46:39 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 13:46:39 -0500
Subject: SEC (See Everything Crooked); O.T. Going to Pukk
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.134639.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SEE EVERYTHING CROOKED--20 Google hits, 1 Google Groups hit

I don't know if the next HDAS will have it.


7 February 2005, New York Post, pg. 35, col. 1:
Back in those days, the initials SEC were said to stand for "See Everything Crooked," and the big shots of Wall Street groveled before them. But that is no longer the case.

--------------------------------------------------------------
OT: PUKK

I told a co-worker that I wouldorder the Son-in-Law Tofus tonight.

CO-WORKER: You're going to puke?
POPIK: Yes.
CO-WORKER: Are you going to puke NOW?
POPIK: No, not for lunch. I'm going to puke tonight.
Co-WORKER: Are you going to puke with anyone?
POPIK: No. I'm going to puke by myself.

OK, lunch is almost up.

http://www.nydailynews.com/city_life/food/story/273310p-233953c.html
The creators of the stylish Thai restaurants Highline and Peep have expanded their roster. Pukk (in Thai, it means "vegetable") opened this week at 71 First Ave. (between Fourth and Fifth Sts.). The vegetarian menu includes pad Thai, curries, noodle and tofu dishes. Designed as a mix of new and old, the 36-seat dining room boasts an ultramodern bright-white and lime-green color scheme as well as a floating Buddha.
(...)

Joe Dziemianowicz and Rachel Wharton

Originally published on January 20, 2005


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Feb  7 18:52:51 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:52:51 -0800
Subject: Fwd: question
In-Reply-To: <l03130302be29d57c403d@[12.107.140.112]>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.105251.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've been waiting for someone who has some familiarity with Yiddish to
chime in, but since no one has, I'll just say that the phrases "to kill
for" and "to die for" have no word-for-word parallels in German.  The
closest I can think of would be "Es ist zum Lachen" 'it's laughable', and
"Es ist zum Kotzen" 'it makes me sick'.  No preposition at the end, and the
construction is made possible only by nominalizing the infinitive.  It
doesn't seem to be a productive pattern: there is no parallel *"Es ist zum
Toeten" or *"Es ist zum Sterben".  I find it hard to see where Yiddish
would have gotten such a construction, but I can't say for sure.

Peter Mc.

--On Friday, February 4, 2005 8:57 PM -0500 sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
wrote:

>>> The Rabbi, Jim Ponet, asks:
>>>
>>> ... explain if you will the structure "Not to worry."  Does it emulate
>>> anything Yiddish.  Then there's "to kill for,"  "to die for."
> ~~~~~~~
> "Not to worry" has a kind of breezy quality that suggests to me that it's
> simply
> a case of  lowering the imperative tone of "I'm telling you not to worry!"
> No particular foreign influence.
> "To kill for" & "to die for," OTOH, do have a kind of Yiddish or German
> resonance, to my ear, at least.
> A. Murie



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Feb  7 19:01:13 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:01:13 -0500
Subject: Fwd: on hypercorrection
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.140113.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One more bit of hypercorrection, this time eliminating the dreaded linking
/r/ in New England:

>[From a former student:]  Seen when shopping on ebay for a mirror to put
>in my newly remodeled bathroom. Here is the description:
>
>This auction is for a beautiful country-style, white vanity mirror with
>two storage draws.  Perfect for bathroom!
>Mirror has beveled edge surrounded by painted white hardwood.  Two lower
>draws for storage of toiletries.
>Knobs on draws are nickel finish.
>Dimensions:   18" x 32"
>** Please note this is a new vanity mirror, never used. It is out of it's
>original packaging however and does have a few (very minor) scratches
>which can be touched up very easily!
>This truly is a beautiful piece and could be hung above a vanity or on an
>open wall.... VERY VERSATILE!
>**  Please note NO RETURNS on this item.  Feel free to contact me with any
>questions...
>Thanks for looking!
>
>
>When I read the description, I thought to myself, "Oh, this seller must be
>from up north!" Sure enough, the seller lives in Rhode Island.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Feb  7 19:34:32 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 11:34:32 -0800
Subject: origins of the english language
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.113432.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from the newsgroup sci.lang, unedited, for your amusement:
-----
From: Verna <FORIGI_FORIGI at google.com>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.esperanto,sci.lang
Re: Academic/scientific journals in Esperanto?
Date: Mon Feb 07 11:19:40 PST 2005

Christopher Culver wrote:

  >>Manuel M Campagna wrote [re references to zamenhof]:

  >>1. This is an ad hominem argument, therefore it is invalid.

  > It isn't an ad hominem argument to state that a language created by a
  > sole man is different than a language created by natural cultural
  > processes. The many linguists here on sci.lang would be pleased to
  > show you how Esperanto differs.

It is wrong to assume, or to spout off as factual, that the English
language was created by any "natural cultural processes.", this is only
one of several subscribed hypotheses by language scientist.  Some
linguistic archaeologist indeed have been able to demonstrate that the
English language its self is in fact an unnatural man-made language.
This language having been invented by sophisticated grammaratitions and
religious-orders of the time to subjugate the local peoples in the area
into a single national entity, schismatic of other neighboring tribes
and nations that spoke reciprocal languages - an insidious linguistical
strategy of divide and conquer - ancient and effective.
------

arnold, your sophisticated grammaratition


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Feb  7 19:45:48 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 14:45:48 -0500
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <20050206050041.1C49FB2860@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.144548.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray wondered:
>
>What does "WV2PBR" stand for?
>

Patti Kurtz correctly analyzed it:
   >>>>>
Looks like an amateur radio call sign to me.. unless Mark's got some
kind of new code going : )
 <<<<<

Yup. The initial W meant United States, as do K, N, and A; I think A is
still reserved for the military. "V" before the number indicated Novice
class. The numeral 2 meant New York State, or maybe New York/New England. I
never advanced any further.

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb  7 20:06:56 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 15:06:56 -0500
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <E1CyErQ-000477-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.150656.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, Mark, you clearly took the first step of journey of a thousand
(s)miles.;-) Thanks for the info!

-Wilson

On Feb 7, 2005, at 2:45 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson Gray wondered:
>>
>> What does "WV2PBR" stand for?
>>
>
> Patti Kurtz correctly analyzed it:
>>>>>>
> Looks like an amateur radio call sign to me.. unless Mark's got some
> kind of new code going : )
>  <<<<<
>
> Yup. The initial W meant United States, as do K, N, and A; I think A is
> still reserved for the military. "V" before the number indicated Novice
> class. The numeral 2 meant New York State, or maybe New York/New
> England. I
> never advanced any further.
>
> -- Mark
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Mon Feb  7 21:20:17 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:20:17 -0500
Subject: Hybrid drivers
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.162017.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Nothing new in biology, nor in usage really, but a little alarming if you're
just skimming the page
(http://www.bankrate.com/natl/itax/news/20050124a1.asp):

    >>>>>
  So hybrid drivers who bought their cars last year can still claim the full
$2,000 deduction on their 2004 returns (as long as they file Form 1040, that
is; the deduction can only be taken on line 35 of that form). [...]
  <<<<<

The key is in the preceding paragraph:
    >>>>>
  If you purchased either a hybrid car or a fully electric auto last year,
[...]
  <<<<<


-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

PS: The page is ad- and graphics-heavy, so I look for and clicked on
"Printer friendly page". Guess what? The only difference is that the
"printer friendly" page says "Close print window" instead.

-- Mark, channeling Barry. Time for a break.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb  7 21:22:46 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:22:46 -0500
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <E1CyCF8-0001g6-00@mx20.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.162246.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

*Very interesting! So, it's a term, well-known in the Mother Country,
that seemingly has died out among members of the primary social group
in the daughter-country. Yet, it somehow has been preserved by members
of a despised secondary group, a not-unknown occurrence. Since I am
fully persuaded of the correctness of Jonathon's evidence, I am thereby
obligated to put aside the erroneous belief that "stinkfinger(ing)" is
a term that arose in the black linguistic pool (Blackpool! Get it?
Rimshot!). I guess that the colored will now have to make do with Plato
and Cleopatra.*

*This is a reference to a species of pseudo-history still prevalent,
unfortunately, among some black Americans, including even some
academics, that supposedly gives the lie to the white man's perversion,
distortion, and revision of the history of Western civilization. For
some reason, Plato and Cleopatra have stuck in my mind, probably
because I've been familiar with these two claims since I learned to
read. Ey, wallah:

The name usually rendered as "Plato" in English derives from "platon,"
the Greek word for "flat." Plato was given this (nick)name because he
had a, by the white man's standard, flat nose. This so-called "flat"
nose is typical of people whose ancestry flows from Mother Africa, from
whose ebon loins sprang mankind itself! Hence, Plato was black.

Cleopatra was an Egyptian. Not even The Man himself disputes this.
Egypt is in Africa. The black race comes from Africa. Therefore,
Cleopatra was black.

-Wilson

On Feb 7, 2005, at 11:10 AM, Jonathon Green wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathon Green <slang at ABECEDARY.NET>
> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> c.1879?1935 in G. Legman _The Limerick_ (1953) 112: There was a young
> curate of Eltham / Who wouldn?t fuck girls, but he felt ?em. / In lanes
> he would linger / And play at stink-finger [etc.]
>
> Definitely white (white-collared even) and according to Legman probably
> extant from the late 19C. Irving Welsh gives the Scots (and again
> white)
> alternative:
>
> 2001 Welsh Glue 39: Ah settles her doon oan the couch giein her the
> stinky-pinky for a bit, sliding ma hand up that wee kilt and inside her
> pants.
>
> [Note to Jon Lighter: be relieved you don't have transcribe, and indeed
> translate Mr W.]
>
> Of course we Brits are equally enamoured of 'finger-pie', hence Lennon
> &
> McCartney in 'Penny Lane' (1967): Penny Lane is in my ears and in my
> eyes, / A four [sc. four penny-worth] of fish and finger pie / In
> summer.
>
> Whether the two Fabs were being dead smart (as they might have put it)
> and making a sly reference to fish = woman = vagina, I cannot say.
>
> Jonathon Green
>


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Feb  7 21:37:24 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:37:24 +0000
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <200502072122.j17LMobe023564@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.213724.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 7/2/05 9:22 pm, Wilson Gray at wilson.gray at RCN.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> *Very interesting! So, it's a term, well-known in the Mother Country,
> that seemingly has died out among members of the primary social group
> in the daughter-country. Yet, it somehow has been preserved by members
> of a despised secondary group, a not-unknown occurrence. Since I am
> fully persuaded of the correctness of Jonathon's evidence, I am thereby
> obligated to put aside the erroneous belief that "stinkfinger(ing)" is
> a term that arose in the black linguistic pool (Blackpool! Get it?
> Rimshot!). I guess that the colored will now have to make do with Plato
> and Cleopatra.*
>
> *This is a reference to a species of pseudo-history still prevalent,
> unfortunately, among some black Americans, including even some
> academics, that supposedly gives the lie to the white man's perversion,
> distortion, and revision of the history of Western civilization. For
> some reason, Plato and Cleopatra have stuck in my mind, probably
> because I've been familiar with these two claims since I learned to
> read. Ey, wallah:
>
> The name usually rendered as "Plato" in English derives from "platon,"
> the Greek word for "flat." Plato was given this (nick)name because he
> had a, by the white man's standard, flat nose. This so-called "flat"
> nose is typical of people whose ancestry flows from Mother Africa, from
> whose ebon loins sprang mankind itself! Hence, Plato was black.
>
> Cleopatra was an Egyptian. Not even The Man himself disputes this.
> Egypt is in Africa. The black race comes from Africa. Therefore,
> Cleopatra was black.
>
> -Wilson

Whatever you're on, G. Legman would have been proud of you (esoteric info
one wonders how one lived without)!

_ Neil Crawford
>
> On Feb 7, 2005, at 11:10 AM, Jonathon Green wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Jonathon Green <slang at ABECEDARY.NET>
>> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>> c.1879?1935 in G. Legman _The Limerick_ (1953) 112: There was a young
>> curate of Eltham / Who wouldn?t fuck girls, but he felt ?em. / In lanes
>> he would linger / And play at stink-finger [etc.]
>>
>> Definitely white (white-collared even) and according to Legman probably
>> extant from the late 19C. Irving Welsh gives the Scots (and again
>> white)
>> alternative:
>>
>> 2001 Welsh Glue 39: Ah settles her doon oan the couch giein her the
>> stinky-pinky for a bit, sliding ma hand up that wee kilt and inside her
>> pants.
>>
>> [Note to Jon Lighter: be relieved you don't have transcribe, and indeed
>> translate Mr W.]
>>
>> Of course we Brits are equally enamoured of 'finger-pie', hence Lennon
>> &
>> McCartney in 'Penny Lane' (1967): Penny Lane is in my ears and in my
>> eyes, / A four [sc. four penny-worth] of fish and finger pie / In
>> summer.
>>
>> Whether the two Fabs were being dead smart (as they might have put it)
>> and making a sly reference to fish = woman = vagina, I cannot say.
>>
>> Jonathon Green
>>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Feb  7 21:40:08 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:40:08 -0500
Subject: The stink/The stank
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.164008.0500.>

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:10:33 +0000, Jonathon Green <slang at ABECEDARY.NET>
wrote:

>Of course we Brits are equally enamoured of 'finger-pie', hence Lennon &
>McCartney in 'Penny Lane' (1967): Penny Lane is in my ears and in my
>eyes, / A four [sc. four penny-worth] of fish and finger pie / In summer.
>
>Whether the two Fabs were being dead smart (as they might have put it)
>and making a sly reference to fish = woman = vagina, I cannot say.

"We put in a joke or two...'four of fish and finger pie.' The women would
never dare say that, except to themselves. Most people wouldn't hear it,
but 'finger pie' is just a nice little joke for the Liverpool lads who
like a bit of smut."  -- Paul McCartney in _Beatles in Their Own Words_
(1978)


--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Feb  7 22:10:12 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:10:12 -0500
Subject: reet (was Re: Flamboozled, etc.)
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.171012.0500.>

On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:21:58 -0500, Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:

>On Feb 7, 2005, at 1:59 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>> ZOOT SUIT
>> ...
>> 15 March 1942, DOWN BEAT, pg. 12, col. 4:
>> _Pot Wants an "Au Reet" Zoot Suit_
>
>"Au Reet" is probably eye-dialect for "all reet," a term still popular
>down to the early '50's, like the phrase, "[she's] reet, petite, and
>gone," i.e. "very attractive."

"Reet, Petite, and Gone" (the Louis Jordan song and the movie of the same
name) didn't appear until 1947.  More likely, the Down Beat article was
referencing Cab Calloway's 1941 song "Are You All Reet?", a compendium of
hep-cat slang: <http://www.heptune.com/lyrics/areyoual.html>.

Did the popularity of "reet" really die out in the early '50s?  So when
Jackie Wilson sang "Reet Petite" in 1957, was he reviving an obsolescent
term?  (I believe "reet" also appeared in "ABC Boogie" by Bill Haley in
1955.)

Even after the '50s, "reet" continued an underground existence,
occasionally bubbling up in pop-culture references.  It often appeared in
R. Crumb's "Zap Comics" in the '60s.  In the '70s it appeared in some
songs paying nostalgic tribute to the '50s (e.g., Van Morrison's "Jackie
Wilson Said" and Ian Dury's "Sweet Gene Vincent").  And in 1980, Chrissie
Hynde memorably used the word in The Pretenders' hit single "Brass in
Pocket":

     I got rhythm
     I can't miss a beat
     I got new skank
     So reet.

Hynde said in an interview that her usage of "reet" was inspired by Zap
Comics: <http://www.guitargirls.com/ChrissieHyndeInterview.htm>.


--Ben Zimmer


From mthom at RCN.COM  Mon Feb  7 22:24:26 2005
From: mthom at RCN.COM (Maggie Thompson)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 17:24:26 -0500
Subject: Burma Shave
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.172426.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's my favorite Burma Shave sign:

Cattle crossing
Means go slow
That old bull
Is some cow's beau.
Burma Shave

Also, the "lemonade" children's chant appears in THE GLASS MENAGERIE, scene
7:
"Lemonade, lemonade
Made in the shade and stirred with a spade--
Good enough for any old maid."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  8 01:02:30 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:02:30 -0500
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <56040.69.142.143.59.1107812408.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.200230.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:40 PM -0500 2/7/05, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 16:10:33 +0000, Jonathon Green <slang at ABECEDARY.NET>
>wrote:
>
>>Of course we Brits are equally enamoured of 'finger-pie', hence Lennon &
>>McCartney in 'Penny Lane' (1967): Penny Lane is in my ears and in my
>>eyes, / A four [sc. four penny-worth] of fish and finger pie / In summer.
>>
>>Whether the two Fabs were being dead smart (as they might have put it)
>>and making a sly reference to fish = woman = vagina, I cannot say.
>
>"We put in a joke or two...'four of fish and finger pie.' The women would
>never dare say that, except to themselves. Most people wouldn't hear it,
>but 'finger pie' is just a nice little joke for the Liverpool lads who
>like a bit of smut."  -- Paul McCartney in _Beatles in Their Own Words_
>(1978)
>
and here I was thinking all along that it was "for a fish and finger
pie", not that I was able to parse it.

L


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Feb  8 01:29:19 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:29:19 -0500
Subject: 2006 ANS Call for Papers
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.202919.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Forwarded on behalf of our colleagues at the ANS:

--------------------------------------------

The American Name Society

with the Linguistic Society of America

Albuquerque, New Mexico, January 5-8, 2006



First Call for Papers



          The American Name Society (ANS), a professional organization devoted to the study of names and their role in society, invites pr?cis and abstracts for papers and program suggestions for its annual meeting to be held in conjunction with the Linguistic Society of America (LSA), American Dialect Society (ADS), and other allied, professional organizations in Albuquerque, New Mexico, at the Hyatt Regency Albuquerque, January 5-8, 2006.



Papers on any area of onomastics are appropriate, and a pr?cis of not more than 500 words, along with a 100-word abstract for publication in the LSA program, should be submitted as soon as convenient but not later than August 15, 2005.  In the pr?cis, the subject of the paper should be should stated in a simple, topic sentence, which is then effectively supported by substantiating information and specific examples.



Proposals for panel discussions, suggestions for distinguished speakers, and/or other types of proposals are due by August 1, 2005.  Although the preferred mode of transmission for both the pr?cis and accompanying abstracts, as well as proposals, is by an introductory e-mail with attachment sent to paord at verizon.net, they may also be sent by surface mail addressed to:



P. A. Ord

414 High Earls Road

Westminster, MD  21158-3710



All abstracts will be evaluated anonymously, and their authors will be notified by September 1, 2005, or as soon as possible thereafter.  The abstracts for papers that are accepted will be published in the LSA Meeting Handbook.  Biographical information for each participant, which will be requested at the time a paper is accepted, will be provided in an abbreviated ANS program.



Please note:  Membership in ANS is a requirement of all presenters, who are also expected to pay the LSA conference registration fee.  This fee allows one access to all LSA, ADS, and other allied organization sessions, as well as the book exhibits, and makes one eligible for the reduced hotel rate of $92.00/night, double or single.  Presenters will also be expected to pay an additional, incidental registration fee to ANS, to cover expenses for any items not provided by LSA.



Further information concerning the Linguistic Society of America and the 2006 LSA meeting in Albuquerque may be obtained from the LSA homepage at www.lsadc.org.  Additional information about the American Name Society may be accessed at www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ANS/.


----- End forwarded message -----


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Feb  8 04:08:47 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 20:08:47 -0800
Subject: on hypercorrection
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050207135808.03405c08@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.200847.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 7, 2005, at 11:01 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> One more bit of hypercorrection, this time eliminating the dreaded
> linking
> /r/ in New England:
>
>> [From a former student:]  Seen when shopping on ebay for a mirror to
>> put
>> in my newly remodeled bathroom. Here is the description:
>>
>> This auction is for a beautiful country-style, white vanity mirror
>> with
>> two storage draws. ..

so this isn't hypercorrection, but just representation of the writer's
variety.  (in your examples, the /r/ isn't word-final, much less
intervocalic.)

still, a nice example.

arnold


From nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Tue Feb  8 05:35:32 2005
From: nunberg at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Geoffrey Nunberg)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2005 21:35:32 -0800
Subject: Disraeli Quote on PQHN
Message-ID: <MON.7.FEB.2005.213532.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have heard the Judah P. Benjamin version as well. I've also heard
variants on this theme used in other contexts -- most unforgettably
when I was in Rome several years ago at a time when a convention of
leghisti (members of the separatist Lega del Nord) had descended on
the city. A local TV program featured a debate between a leghista and
and a Roman intellectual, who at one point said dismissively: "Mentre
i vostri allenati vangarono le foreste, i miei furono gia' froci" --
"While your ancestors were wandering around in the forests, mine were
already fags."

Geoff Nunberg


>On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 17:33:50 -0500, I wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 16:55:41 -0500, Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>If I can impose upon the list one more time:  Is anyone willing to check
>>>ProQuest Historical Newspapers to find an 1893 Chicago Tribune occurrence
>>>of the Disraeli quote about "my ancestors" (something along the line of my
>>>ancestors were priests in the temple of Solomon when yours were
>>>savages...)?  I would need the exact wording and dating.
>>
>>Chicago Daily Tribune, Jan 22, 1893. p. 38
>>The people out there in the Kentucky County of Virginia resembled at the
>>time Disraeli's description of their relative forefathers when they had
>>called him a Jew: "When my ancestors were worshiping in the temple," he
>>said, "yours were naked barbarians."
>>
>>But here are earlier cites:
>>
>>Washington Post, Mar 28, 1878, p. 2
>>Jewish Times: Lady Rosebery has blue blood than her husband; her family
>>tree is much more ancient than his. To quote Disraeli, her ancestors were
>>princes in the temple when Lord Rosebery's ancestors were savages in the
>>woods.
>[snip]
>
>(For "blue" in the above quote, read "bluer".)
>
>I also see references to a very similar quote supposedly made by Senator
>Judah Peter Benjamin of Louisiana, some time prior to the Civil War
>(during which time he was Secretary of War for the Confederacy).
>
>----------
>http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~mendele/vol03/vol03.234
>Mendele: Yiddish literature and language
>Vol. 3.234, February 13, 1994
>
>Date: Sat Feb 12 14:32:59 1994
>From: BB7M000 <BB7M at MUSICB.MCGILL.CA>
>Subject: Benjamin said it first
>
>Judah P. Benjamin did say in the US Senate prior to 1861 in a reply
>to another senator," The gentleman will please remember that when
>his half-civilized ancestors were hunting the wild boar in the
>forests of Silesia, mine were the princes of the earth". This
>putdown may or not have carried across the Atlantic, but probably
>the seminary quotation was the reply made by Benjamin Disraeli (1801
>-1881) in the House of Commons when taunted by Irish Daniel
>O'Connel, "Yes, I am a Jew, and when the ancestors of the right
>honorable gentleman were brutal savages in an unknown island, mine
>were priests in the temple of Solomon". George Bernard Shaw was
>certainly aware of that putdown, and adopted it in his play "Caesar
>and Cleopatra". Viper-tounged, mini-brained Henry Mencken(1880-1956)
>probably saw the play and adapted it to his anti-semitic insult. Vi
>a tzibeleh.
>
>Hirsh Schipper (I have not checked Caesar and Cleopatra)
>----------
>
>The earliest mention I've found on Proquest for the Judah Benjamin story
>is in a New York Times "Queries and Answers" column of July 10, 1921, in a
>response to a query about the Disraeli quote.  An earlier source is given
>for the Judah Benjamin version: "Reminiscences of Sixty Years in the
>National Metropolis" by Benjamin Perley Poore (Philadelphia, 1886).
>
>
>--Ben Zimmer


From grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET  Tue Feb  8 08:41:37 2005
From: grendel.jjf at VERIZON.NET (Se�n Fitzpatrick)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 03:41:37 -0500
Subject: Gaper's Block (1964)
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.034137.0500.GRENDEL.JJF@VERIZON.NET>

In Philadelphia, the traffic reporters call it "gapers' delay".

I'm not sure it actually is caused by rubbernecking.  In heavy traffic, even a momentary congestion can linger long after the cause is removed, because cars come into the back of the congested area faster than they can leave the front.  You can also think of it as a wave :  the point at which drivers accelerate out of the congestion propagates back through the line of traffic like a wave.  When the current of traffic is moving at the same speed but in the opposite direction to the wave, the acceleration point stays in one place.  It looks as though drivers are slowing down to look at the accident, but it is more a matter of fluid dynamics than human nature.

Se?n Fitzpatrick
Beer is good food
http://www.logomachon.blogspot.com/


From justin_hertog at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Feb  8 15:35:56 2005
From: justin_hertog at HOTMAIL.COM (Justin Hertog)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 10:35:56 -0500
Subject: "Banging my spoon on the highchair"
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.103556.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I read Safire's column a few weeks ago in The Times (don't remember which
day) in which said that he had been "banging his spoon on the highchair" (or
something similar to it) about something or another.  This was amusing to
me.  I was wondering if anyone had any info about it.

Justin

_________________________________________________________________
Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Feb  8 16:14:55 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:14:55 -0500
Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.111455.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Years ago, when my wife was very invovled with our grade-school
parents' acssociation, there was a member of the local school board
whom she invariably referred to as "that scumbag Arnie Cohen*" -- well,
maybe she didn't use the honorific when talking at PA meetings, but at
the dinner table, always.  (*Name changed to protect the innocent.)

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

----- Original Message -----
From: James Smith <jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM>
Date: Monday, February 7, 2005 8:12 am
Subject: Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"

> I hear "scuzz", "scuzzy", "scuzzbag", "scumbag" (not
> the "other" meaning), and "dirtbag" used frequently.
>
>
>
> --- Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>
> > Oh, please, Jon!;-) Sterile pseudo-slang and fake
> > vulgarities designed
> > to pass censorship have no legs and are totally
> > devoid of soul. Have
> > you ever heard anyone seriously use "scuzz[whatever]
> > or even that hoary
> > old chestnut, "scumbag," in real life? Well,
> > "scumbag," perhaps, in its
> > other meaning of "safe," i.e. "condom."
> >
> > Of course, you may very well be completely right.
> >
> > -Wilson
> >
> > On Feb 4, 2005, at 9:01 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society
> > <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter
> > <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> > > Subject:      Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > > --------
> > >
> > > "Scumbag" comes close:
> > >
> > > "Isn't he the scuzzcrack who fired you from
> > Yearbook?"..."You fired
> > > me, remember? Because you're a scuzzcrack!"
> > >
> > > JL
> > > Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > Poster: Wilson Gray
> > > Subject: Re: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > > --------
> > >
> > > What is the meaning of "scuzzcrack"? It's not as
> > obvious as that of
> > > "pimpmobile."
> > >
> > > -Wilson
> > >
> > > On Feb 3, 2005, at 10:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header
> > >> -----------------------
> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> > >> Subject: "Scuzzcrack" & "Pimpmobile"
> > >>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> > >> -
> > >> --------
> > >>
> > >> The possibility that Wilson may be the inglorious
> > Milton who coined
> > >> "pimpmobile" reminds me that back on Oct. 22 I
> > reported two
> > >> occurrences of the word "scuzzcrack" on CBS's
> > "Joan of Arcadia" that
> > >> evening, a word which had not appeared on the Net
> > or anywhere else
> > >> that I was aware of.
> > >>
> > >> Despite its simultaneous reception in millions of
> > American homes,
> > >> there is still no evidence of wider usage more
> > than 90 days later.
> > >>
> > >> So if Wilson set "pimpmobile" afloat in 1963
> > without the aid of mass
> > >> media, we reasonably might not expect it to
> > surface till sometime in
> > >> the mid 22nd century.
> > >>
> > >> A quick Google check uncovers about one quarter
> > million examples of
> > >> "pimpmobile" on the Web alone. I am sorry to
> > report, therefore, that
> > >> any claim in favor of Wilson's unique ownership
> > of this word for
> > >> copyright, trademark, or servicemark purposes is
> > likely to be
> > >> staunchly contested.
> > >>
> > >> JL
> > >>
> > >> Wilson Gray wrote:
> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header
> > >> -----------------------
> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >> Poster: Wilson Gray
> > >> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> > >>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> > >> -
> > >> --------
> > >>
> > >> On Feb 3, 2005, at 9:38 AM, Jonathan Lighter
> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header
> > >>> -----------------------
> > >>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> > >>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> > >>>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > >>> -
> > >>> -
> > >>> --------
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks, Wilson. The military sense must be
> > fairly obscure, since I
> > >>> just discovered it and it seems to go back to
> > the '50s among Morse
> > >>> operators. Pretty expressive, though.
> > >>>
> > >>> As for "pimpmobile," it seems to have taken a
> > full decade for your
> > >>> creation to have reached the print media.
> > >>>
> > >>> JL
> > >>
> > >> You know what gives me the jaws (there's a bit in
> > HDAS about this use
> > >> of "jaws"; can't recall at the moment whether it
> > has this particular
> > >> version) about "pimpmobile"? There's simply no
> > way to find out whether
> > >> I'm really *the* source. It's such an obvious
> > coinage that any number
> > >> of other people could have come up with it any
> > number of times. It's
> > >> even possible that the first person to use the
> > word in print coined it
> > >> independently. Sigh! No 15 minutes of fame for
> > me.
> > >>
> > >> -Wilson
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Wilson Gray wrote:
> > >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header
> > >>> -----------------------
> > >>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >>> Poster: Wilson Gray
> > >>> Subject: Re: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> > >>>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > >>> -
> > >>> -
> > >>> --------
> > >>>
> > >>> When I was a teenager in the 'Fifties in St.
> > Louis,
> > >>> "dittybop(p)er"/diddybop(per)" was a fairly mild
> > insult that meant
> > >>> something like "wannabe hipster." There was no
> > verb form.
> > >>>
> > >>> Unfortunately, when I was in The War, I didn't
> > have occasion to come
> > >>> into contact with any Morse-code operators. More
> > useless information:
> > >>> when teletypy is heard on a voice channel, it
> > sounds like Morse code
> > >>> to
> > >>> the untutored ear. Or at least it did on the
> > equipment available in
> > >>> the
> > >>> late '50's.
> > >>>
> > >>> -Wilson Gray
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Feb 1, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter
> > wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> ---------------------- Information from the
> > mail header
> > >>>> -----------------------
> > >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> > >>>> Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
> > >>>>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> =====
> James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
> South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
> jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
>                               |or slowly and cautiously.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Feb  8 16:24:21 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:24:21 -0500
Subject: The Body in the Library
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.112421.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Our viewing, like Shelley's was only of the second half (in our part of the
map, Monk conflicts with the first hour), so it was a little hard to catch
the allusions in a lot of the dialogue. The acting was very stagey for
television, almost commedia dell'arte-like in the obvious I'm-a-white-hat,
I'm-a-black-hat presentations. I don't remember the original story at all,
so the deviations in plot meant nothing to me.  I did like the new Marple
(what's her name...Geraldine something?).  She captures some of what Joan
Hickson(sp?)'s  portrayal always seemed to me to lack: a sort of suppressed
impatience, possibly even resentment at the constraints of her position.
Christie's own life reveals her chafing at the confines of the upper middle
class female role in the early 20th Century. Making her Jane Marple a kind
of latter day Jane Austen gave some expression to this impatience. A sharp
observer and sly commentator bound by convention to shade her wit.

[The Rutherford "Marple" is another matter altogether: a perfectly
marvellous character, but not Christie's Marple.]

Our reception of CBC is very uncertain, but if we can get it, I'm sure
we'll keep watching.  I think they're planning to do three.
A. Murie

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Tue Feb  8 16:23:28 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 10:23:28 -0600
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <200502080215.3a4208670124e@rly-na05.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.102328.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU wrote:

> The initial W meant United States, as do K, N, and A; I think A is
>still reserved for the military. "V" before the number indicated Novice
>class. The numeral 2 meant New York State, or maybe New York/New England. I
>never advanced any further.
>
>
A is no longer reserved for military-- my husband's call sign starts
with A (AB0ZB)  They changed a lot of that when they went from FCC
examiners to amateurs doing the testing.  But the numbers do still
indicate the region of the US  (0 being the Upper Midwest)

Patti Kurtz

>-- Mark
>[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>
>

--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Tue Feb  8 16:28:30 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:28:30 -0500
Subject: Ooops!
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.112830.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry.  That Body in the Library post was intended for another list.
A. Murie


From jasonnorris at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb  8 16:33:28 2005
From: jasonnorris at YAHOO.COM (Jason Norris)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:33:28 -0800
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.083328.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Although there are several online dictionaries, I was wondering which one(s) you use on a regular basis, whether free or subscription? (Or do you stick with the hard copy versions?)

Any recommendations?

Jason Norris



If we knew what we were doing,
it wouldn't be called research,
would it?

 -- Albert Einstein


From halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU  Tue Feb  8 16:34:07 2005
From: halldj at BABEL.LING.UPENN.EDU (Damien Hall)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:34:07 -0500
Subject: Hypercorrection
In-Reply-To: <200502080500.AAA00398@babel.ling.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.113407.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had to share this wonderful example of hypercorrection from my niece, 2 at the
time, currently acquiring probably middle-class Standard Southern British
English in London.

At Christmas 2003 we were decorating the house, of course, and her rendition of
the word for what we were decorating it with was

[dEkuh?Ejshns]

(ie with the intervocalic /r/ replaced with a glottal stop).  I interpreted it
as a hypercorrection arising from her presumably passive knowledge that there
is in fact no /r/ where linking [r]'s are heard in SSBE and other similar
varieties.  I say 'presumably passive knowledge' because she had certainly
never been actually corrected for putting a linking [r] in elsewhere, if she
ever does it, which I don't know.

Sadly, by Christmas 2003, she had changed it to the standard version.

Damien Hall
university of Pennsylvania


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Feb  8 16:53:21 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:53:21 -0500
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.115321.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I think the American Heritage, http://www.bartleby.com/61/, is probably the best free modern dictionary online.  For a far more comprehensive (though now somewhat dated) dictionary, though, check out the Century Dictionary, all twelve volumes of which are at http://www.global-language.com/century/.  Urbandictionary.com is unreliable but can be a useful guide to recent slang.  I don't use Merriam-Webster's online website, http://www.m-w.com/, because I have the collegiate dictionary on my desktop.  I'd love to have a subscription to the online OED, but Jesse needs to lower the price first.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Jason Norris
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 11:33 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Dictionaries Online?


Although there are several online dictionaries, I was wondering which one(s) you use on a regular basis, whether free or subscription? (Or do you stick with the hard copy versions?)

Any recommendations?

Jason Norris


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb  8 16:53:49 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 11:53:49 -0500
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
In-Reply-To: <20050208163329.63500.qmail@web51010.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.115349.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:33 AM -0800 2/8/05, Jason Norris wrote:
>Although there are several online dictionaries, I was wondering
>which one(s) you use on a regular basis, whether free or
>subscription? (Or do you stick with the hard copy versions?)
>
>Any recommendations?
>
>Jason Norris
>
I use, and recommend, American Heritage Dictionary, 4th ed. (2000),
http://www.bartleby.com/61/

Disclaimer:  I'm a member of the Usage Panel.  I still think it's the
best universally accessible online dictionary, although if you can
access the Oxford English Dictionary from your domain, there's
nothing better.  I can get it at http://dictionary.oed.com/, but your
institution has to subscribe.

Larry


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb  8 17:16:51 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 12:16:51 -0500
Subject: on hypercorrection
In-Reply-To: <dce620c610472f096e51e0ea5b5b0404@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.121651.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You're right, Arnold--and I thought of this alternate explanation right
after I sent the note.  A good example of how dialect affects spelling though.

At 11:08 PM 2/7/2005, you wrote:
>On Feb 7, 2005, at 11:01 AM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>>One more bit of hypercorrection, this time eliminating the dreaded
>>linking
>>/r/ in New England:
>>
>>>[From a former student:]  Seen when shopping on ebay for a mirror to
>>>put
>>>in my newly remodeled bathroom. Here is the description:
>>>
>>>This auction is for a beautiful country-style, white vanity mirror
>>>with
>>>two storage draws. ..
>
>so this isn't hypercorrection, but just representation of the writer's
>variety.  (in your examples, the /r/ isn't word-final, much less
>intervocalic.)
>
>still, a nice example.
>
>arnold


From einstein at FROGNET.NET  Tue Feb  8 18:23:08 2005
From: einstein at FROGNET.NET (David Bergdahl)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 13:23:08 -0500
Subject: Staus (was gaper's block)
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.132308.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RE: traffic slowdowns

In Germany 30 yrs ago the slowdowns on the Autobahn were called Staus--n.B.
the English plural--and I was told that it derived from the English word
"stall" but pronounced "shtao".  The most frequent reason given for them was
what CALTRANS calls TMC: "too many cars."  Any small item can cause a Stau:
merging traffic, an accident, smoke or fog on the road &c. ... or just
traffic.  I was told that speed limits would reduce them because with
unlimited speed traffic bunches up and therefore everything slows down.
Consequently the major roads started getting 135 km/St speed limits (approx
84 mph).
________________________________
"Raffiniert ist der Herr Gott aber Boshaft ist er nicht"
--Albert Einstein


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Feb  8 19:02:20 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:02:20 -0500
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.140220.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm rather partial to the Century Dictionary, OED, and Samuel Johnson.  Of
the modern batch I like MW11 for the searchable etys.



American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Tuesday, February 08,
2005 at 11:53 AM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: Dictionaries Online?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>At 8:33 AM -0800 2/8/05, Jason Norris wrote:
>>Although there are several online dictionaries, I was wondering
>>which one(s) you use on a regular basis, whether free or
>>subscription? (Or do you stick with the hard copy versions?)
>>
>>Any recommendations?
>>
>>Jason Norris
>>
>I use, and recommend, American Heritage Dictionary, 4th ed. (2000),
>http://www.bartleby.com/61/
>
>Disclaimer:  I'm a member of the Usage Panel.  I still think it's the
>best universally accessible online dictionary, although if you can
>access the Oxford English Dictionary from your domain, there's
>nothing better.  I can get it at http://dictionary.oed.com/, but your
>institution has to subscribe.
>
>Larry


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Feb  8 19:11:43 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 14:11:43 -0500
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.141143.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Johnson is online?  Where?

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Barnhart
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 2:02 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Dictionaries Online?


I'm rather partial to the Century Dictionary, OED, and Samuel Johnson.  Of
the modern batch I like MW11 for the searchable etys.


From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM  Tue Feb  8 21:48:41 2005
From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:48:41 -0500
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
In-Reply-To: <200502080853184.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.164841.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi,

I can tell you that as a card carrying member of the
Philadelpia Free Library

I can get online from ANYWHERE
and access
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English Dictionaries & Thesauruses
FOR FREE
and so can anyone else.

Search this subject
Search whole database
Browse this subject
Links for this subject
Search within a book
The Oxford American Dictionary of Current English
The Concise Oxford English Dictionary
The Oxford American Thesaurus of Current English
The Oxford Paperback Thesaurus
http://www.oxfordreference.com/views/BOOK_SEARCH.html?book=t21&subject=s7


To learn more about searching for free see my site

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happy hunting,
Karen Ellis

>Disclaimer:  I'm a member of the Usage Panel.  I still think it's the
>best universally accessible online dictionary, although if you can
>access the Oxford English Dictionary from your domain, there's
>nothing better.  I can get it at http://dictionary.oed.com/, but your
>institution has to subscribe.
>
>Larry

<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
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http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html

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From words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM  Tue Feb  8 21:57:44 2005
From: words1 at WORD-DETECTIVE.COM (Evan Morris)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:57:44 -0500
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B55@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.165744.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
Baker, John
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 11:53 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Dictionaries Online?


        I think the American Heritage, http://www.bartleby.com/61/, is
probably the best free modern dictionary online.  For a far more
comprehensive (though now somewhat dated) dictionary, though, check out the
Century Dictionary, all twelve volumes of which are at
http://www.global-language.com/century/.  Urbandictionary.com is unreliable
but can be a useful guide to recent slang.  I don't use Merriam-Webster's
online website, http://www.m-w.com/, because I have the collegiate
dictionary on my desktop.  I'd love to have a subscription to the online
OED, but Jesse needs to lower the price first.

John Baker




Check your local library's website.  The Columbus (OH) public library offers
access to OED online if you have a library card.


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Tue Feb  8 22:02:51 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:02:51 -0500
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <20050208050036.78268B2549@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.170251.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray syllogizes:
   >>>>>

Cleopatra was an Egyptian.
Egypt is in Africa.
The black race comes from Africa.
Therefore, Cleopatra was black.
 <<<<<

False logic, I'm afraid. Now, if the third line were "All Africans are
black" it would stand up a lot better.

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb  8 22:24:31 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 17:24:31 -0500
Subject: primary, v.
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.172431.0500.>

(None of these senses are in the OED yet, or in any of the other major
dictionaries.  Nothing in _Hatchet Jobs and Hardball_ either.)


* primary, v. intr. 'to hold a primary election'

1916 _Fort Wayne News_ (Ind.) 22 July 1/2 Texas Democrats today are
primarying on everything from prohibition to dog warden and from school
bonds to United States senator.


* primary, v. intr. 'to run in a primary election'

1978 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ (NY) 22 Mar. 25/5 Robert Byrne, who
previously announced he was considering primarying against Walsh for the
Republican nomination, is in the race and has set up a committee to draft
him.

1995 _News-Times_ (Danbury, Conn.) 2 Nov. (online) Winkler primaried to
win the party's endorsement over a candidate favored by Hapanowich, he
said.
<http://web.archive.org/web/19970807001939/www.newstimes.com/archive/nov0295/lce.htm>

1997 _Westbury Times_ (NY) 13 Nov. (online) One of the last races I ran
was up in Albany, where we primaried against their Democratic machine.
<http://www.antonnews.com/westburytimes/1997/11/13/news/>


* primary, v. trans. 'to oppose (someone) in a primary election'

1982 _New York Times_ 30 May (Westchester Weekly) 8/6 Then, in 1969, when
the Board of Legislators was formed out of the old Board of Supervisors, I
was selected by the Republicans for the Port Chester seat, but John
primaried me and won - by about 95 votes.

1982 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ (NY) 19 Sep. A8/2 Wortley claims Lee could
have challenged Democratic Congressman Stanley Lundine in the 34th
District, or primaried Oneida County Executive Sherwood Boehlert, a
Republican, in the 25th District.

2005 _Montgomery Advertiser_ (Ala.) 16 Jan. (online) "Getting Daschled" is
now a real concern for many liberal members of Congress in both political
parties, but especially for Democrats. Yet, because their base is so
left-wing, liberal Democrats also fear getting "primaried," that is,
losing to another liberal in their party's primary.
<http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/NEWSV5/storyV5edvoice116w.htm>


And a few nonce forms...


* white primaried, ppl. a. 'subjected to all-white primary elections (as
in the Southern U.S. during the Jim Crow era)'

1904 T. WATSON in C. V. Woodward _Tom Watson_ (1938) 370 What can the
negro do? He has been disfranchised in nearly every southern state, except
Georgia, and in Georgia he has been "white primaried."
[in turn cited by: M. Perlman _Struggle for Mastery_ (2001) 285
<http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/080782593X/>]


* outprimaried, ppl. a. 'outwitted or outmaneuvered in a primary election'

1908 _Sandusky Star Journal_ (Ohio) 23 Jan. 8/3 The senator was
out-primaried, if we may use that term.


* unprimaried, ppl. a. 'unopposed in a primary election'

1982 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ (NY) 12 Sep. E2/5 Had Lee decided to run in
any district other than the 27th, both he and Wortley would probably have
gone un-primaried into the November election.


--Ben Zimmer


From morzinsk.mary at UWLAX.EDU  Tue Feb  8 22:19:28 2005
From: morzinsk.mary at UWLAX.EDU (Mary Morzinski)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:19:28 -0600
Subject: CALL FOR PAPERS
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.161928.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CALL FOR PAPERS

American Dialect Society session of the Rocky Mountain Modern Language Association meeting

Coeur d'Alene
October 20-22, 2005

Papers on any aspect of language variation are invited.

Send abstract by March 1, 2005 to
morzinsk.mary at uwlax.edu
Mary Morzinski
Dept of English 
UW-L
La Crosse, WI 54601


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb  8 23:08:20 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:08:20 -0500
Subject: Daschled
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.180820.0500.>

This one was already noted by the good folks at Experimental Linguistics:
<http://expling.blogspot.com/2004/11/daschledandcheneyed.html>.
But will it have the staying power of "Borked" or "Fisking"?


[2002 _Broadcasting & Cable_ 11 Feb. (Proquest) 4 (heading) Hopes Daschled?]

[2004 _Daily News_ (NY) 4 Nov. (Nexis) 21 (heading) Dem spirits Daschled.]

2004 AmericaLovingCanadian (weblog) 4 Nov., Even though Reid is from a
"red state", he just won re-election, so he will not have to worry about
being "Daschled", at least not for 6 years.
<http://jbloedow.blogspot.com/2004_11_01_jbloedow_archive.html>

2004 Wampum (weblog) 6 Nov., Conrad, despite being an excellent Senator
and the personification of fiscal responsibility, is reasonably likely to
be Daschled.
<http://wampum.wabanaki.net/archives/001354.html>

2004 _New York Times_ 7 Nov. (Week in Review) 3/1 Already, there is a new
verb floating around the Capitol: "Daschled." It describes what can happen
to those, like the Senate Democratic Leader Tom Daschle, who oppose
Republican legislation and then lose re-election in heavily Republican
states. ...  "If we've got troubles in Iraq and the economy's in the
toilet then Democrats are not going to worry about being Daschled," he
said.

2004 Salon War Room (weblog) 8 Nov., But Josh Marshall points out that
even a newcomer like Senator-elect John Thune, empowered by his Daschling
of Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, is dangling the possibility that
Specter will be punished for his sins.
http://archive.salon.com/politics/war_room/2004/11/08/specter/

2004 PaperSpray (weblog) 22 Nov., Daschled - A way to describe someone who
has lost out because of lack of personality and charisma, even though they
may be much more competent than the close-minded Republican asshole who
beat him. "Former Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle was Daschled right
out of his Senate Seat by Tom Thune, a total prick who likes to tout
bibles."
<http://timpratt.blogspot.com/2004/11/hot-words-terms.html>

2005 _Montgomery Advertiser_ (Ala.) 16 Jan. (online) "Getting Daschled" is
now a real concern for many liberal members of Congress in both political
parties, but especially for Democrats. Yet, because their base is so
left-wing, liberal Democrats also fear getting "primaried," that is,
losing to another liberal in their party's primary.
<http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/NEWSV5/storyV5edvoice116w.htm>


--Ben Zimmer


From billyeo2003 at SBCGLOBAL.NET  Tue Feb  8 22:58:55 2005
From: billyeo2003 at SBCGLOBAL.NET (Billy Thomas)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 16:58:55 -0600
Subject: Mail list
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.165855.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Someone subscribed me to your list and about 300 others.Please take me off of your mail list.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb  8 23:12:14 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:12:14 -0500
Subject: The stink/The stank
In-Reply-To: <E1CydiW-0000bk-01@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.181214.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

WTF, Mark?! Is my writing really so obscure? My whole point is that,
unfortunately, there are some black people, even in academia, who
accept such syllogisms as fully logical and do not - or refuse to -
recognize them as nonsense. If my example syllogism had been logically
true, it would have been totally beside the point. And "All Africans
are black" is likewise false, even if one restricts oneself to
sub-Saharan Africa.

-Wilson

On Feb 8, 2005, at 5:02 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: The stink/The stank
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson Gray syllogizes:
>>>>>>
>
> Cleopatra was an Egyptian.
> Egypt is in Africa.
> The black race comes from Africa.
> Therefore, Cleopatra was black.
>  <<<<<
>
> False logic, I'm afraid. Now, if the third line were "All Africans are
> black" it would stand up a lot better.
>
> -- Mark
> [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Feb  8 23:49:21 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:49:21 -0500
Subject: primary, v.
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.184921.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

All very nice.  You might check out The Barnhart Dictionary Companion
(Vol. 13.1; c. 2000).

Both primary, v. and primarying, v.n. are entered there.  At the time the
only electronic resource we were using was Nexis.  The e.q. (earliest
quote) then was 1980.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com

bgzimmer at rci.rutgers.edu on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 at 5:24 PM -0500
wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU>
>Subject:      primary, v.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>(None of these senses are in the OED yet, or in any of the other major
>dictionaries.  Nothing in _Hatchet Jobs and Hardball_ either.)
>
>
>* primary, v. intr. 'to hold a primary election'
>
>1916 _Fort Wayne News_ (Ind.) 22 July 1/2 Texas Democrats today are
>primarying on everything from prohibition to dog warden and from school
>bonds to United States senator.
>
>
>* primary, v. intr. 'to run in a primary election'
>
>1978 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ (NY) 22 Mar. 25/5 Robert Byrne, who
>previously announced he was considering primarying against Walsh for the
>Republican nomination, is in the race and has set up a committee to draft
>him.
>
>1995 _News-Times_ (Danbury, Conn.) 2 Nov. (online) Winkler primaried to
>win the party's endorsement over a candidate favored by Hapanowich, he
>said.
><http://web.archive.org/web/19970807001939/www.newstimes.com/archive/nov0295/lce.htm>
>
>1997 _Westbury Times_ (NY) 13 Nov. (online) One of the last races I ran
>was up in Albany, where we primaried against their Democratic machine.
><http://www.antonnews.com/westburytimes/1997/11/13/news/>
>
>
>* primary, v. trans. 'to oppose (someone) in a primary election'
>
>1982 _New York Times_ 30 May (Westchester Weekly) 8/6 Then, in 1969, when
>the Board of Legislators was formed out of the old Board of Supervisors, I
>was selected by the Republicans for the Port Chester seat, but John
>primaried me and won - by about 95 votes.
>
>1982 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ (NY) 19 Sep. A8/2 Wortley claims Lee could
>have challenged Democratic Congressman Stanley Lundine in the 34th
>District, or primaried Oneida County Executive Sherwood Boehlert, a
>Republican, in the 25th District.
>
>2005 _Montgomery Advertiser_ (Ala.) 16 Jan. (online) "Getting Daschled" is
>now a real concern for many liberal members of Congress in both political
>parties, but especially for Democrats. Yet, because their base is so
>left-wing, liberal Democrats also fear getting "primaried," that is,
>losing to another liberal in their party's primary.
><http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/NEWSV5/storyV5edvoice116w.htm>
>
>
>And a few nonce forms...
>
>
>* white primaried, ppl. a. 'subjected to all-white primary elections (as
>in the Southern U.S. during the Jim Crow era)'
>
>1904 T. WATSON in C. V. Woodward _Tom Watson_ (1938) 370 What can the
>negro do? He has been disfranchised in nearly every southern state, except
>Georgia, and in Georgia he has been "white primaried."
>[in turn cited by: M. Perlman _Struggle for Mastery_ (2001) 285
><http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/080782593X/>]
>
>
>* outprimaried, ppl. a. 'outwitted or outmaneuvered in a primary election'
>
>1908 _Sandusky Star Journal_ (Ohio) 23 Jan. 8/3 The senator was
>out-primaried, if we may use that term.
>
>
>* unprimaried, ppl. a. 'unopposed in a primary election'
>
>1982 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ (NY) 12 Sep. E2/5 Had Lee decided to run in
>any district other than the 27th, both he and Wortley would probably have
>gone un-primaried into the November election.
>
>
>--Ben Zimmer


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Feb  9 00:07:30 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:07:30 -0600
Subject: Query: dating of "the ugly American"
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.180730.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was asked today whether the phrase "the ugly American" was used prior to the 1958 book by that title authored by William J. Lederer and Eugene Burdick.
Would someone perhaps know?

Gerald Cohen


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Wed Feb  9 01:16:08 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 20:16:08 -0500
Subject: Query: dating of "the ugly American"
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.201608.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jerry,

With only a cursory search, I used "The ugly American" as a search term at
Proquest, and found:

_The Washington Post_  Aug. 1, 1937 Pg. B2/col. 1  (A story about Don Budge,
the tennis star, at Wimbleton)

"Wimbledon crowds that had watched with appreciative eyes the spirited and
determined play of the "ugly" American, in the challenge round against
England and the interzone round against Germany , reflected the world's
respect for the 22-year-old "veteran" by their frequent and congratulatory
applause."

I can't say that the use there is totally clear.  I'll leave that to others.

No doubt Ben will be along and provide much more.

Sam Clements


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 7:07 PM
Subject: Query: dating of "the ugly American"


> I was asked today whether the phrase "the ugly American" was used prior to
the 1958 book by that title authored by William J. Lederer and Eugene
Burdick.
> Would someone perhaps know?
>
> Gerald Cohen
>


From dwhause at JOBE.NET  Wed Feb  9 01:22:13 2005
From: dwhause at JOBE.NET (Dave Hause)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 19:22:13 -0600
Subject: Staus (was gaper's block)
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.192213.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

They were still called that when I left in 90.
Dave Hause, dwhause at jobe.net
Ft. Leonard Wood, MO
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Bergdahl" <einstein at FROGNET.NET>


RE: traffic slowdowns

In Germany 30 yrs ago the slowdowns on the Autobahn were called Staus--n.B.
the English plural--and I was told that it derived from the English word
"stall" but pronounced "shtao".


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Feb  9 01:35:25 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 20:35:25 -0500
Subject: A 19th Century F-Word Use
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.203525.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Gene Weingarten's column, in the Washington Post for 2/6/2005 and syndicated in other newspapers, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55085-2005Feb1.html, reproduces an interesting use of "fucking" from the National Archives:

        <<A page from the census report for the inhabitants of Dade County, Ga., in 1850, lists each resident, his or her age, occupation and place of birth, and whether he or she is "deaf, dumb, blind, insane or idiotic." One page lists several farmers and their families, and four single women: Sarah and Mary Doyle, and Lucinda and Susan Killion. One may assume the census recorder did not approve of these women, or had a perverse sense of humor, or both. In a formal, flowery handwriting similar to that found on, say, the U.S. Constitution, all four women's occupations are listed as: "[F-word]ing.">>

        Weingarten indicated in an online chat today that the archivists were astonished to find the term.  Presumably they brought it to his attention for use in his humor column.

John Baker


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  9 02:18:47 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:18:47 -0800
Subject: Query: dating of "the ugly American"
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.181847.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, the it's the hero of Lederer & Burdick's novel who's physically unattractive ("ugly") but who connects with the Asian locals in a genuine way while his glamorous colleagues are fouling up and giving America a bad name at every turn.

As used since then, the phrase refers to  Americans abroad whose attitude toward foreign societies is arrogant and "ugly" in the metaphorical sense. Not, evidently, what L & B had in mind - except perhaps as irony.

If the above is the whole story, then it would be quite surprising to find a citation antedating the novel.

JL

"Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard"
Subject: Query: dating of "the ugly American"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was asked today whether the phrase "the ugly American" was used prior to the 1958 book by that title authored by William J. Lederer and Eugene Burdick.
Would someone perhaps know?

Gerald Cohen

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  9 02:22:19 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:22:19 -0800
Subject: A 19th Century F-Word Use
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.182219.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Now if they'd found it used as an "adjective of extreme contumely" in 1850 - THAT would've been something!

JL

"Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Baker, John"
Subject: A 19th Century F-Word Use
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gene Weingarten's column, in the Washington Post for 2/6/2005 and syndicated in other newspapers, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55085-2005Feb1.html, reproduces an interesting use of "fucking" from the National Archives:

<>

Weingarten indicated in an online chat today that the archivists were astonished to find the term. Presumably they brought it to his attention for use in his humor column.

John Baker


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo!


From blemay0 at MCHSI.COM  Wed Feb  9 04:15:36 2005
From: blemay0 at MCHSI.COM (Bill Le May)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 22:15:36 -0600
Subject: Burma Shave
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.221536.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Browsing "Brewer's Dictionary of Twentieth-Century Phrase and Fable", I
happened upon this just now, under 'epitaph':

Beneath this slab
John Brown is stowed.
He watched the ads
And not the road.
                  Ogden Nash, "Lather as You Go"


From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Feb  9 04:48:25 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 20:48:25 -0800
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
In-Reply-To: <003b01c50e29$3885fbc0$6400a8c0@Adelle3>
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.204825.0800.>

> Check your local library's website.  The Columbus (OH) public
> library offers access to OED online if you have a library card.

Ditto for the San Francisco Public Library. Anyone with a California
driver's license can get a card and with it online access to the OED,
Proquest Historical NY Times, and a bunch of other online databases. But you
have to apply in person, so it's realistically limited to locals.

As for free online dictionaries, I tend to use Merriam Webster. The reason I
prefer it to American Heritage is that the URL is easier to type. That's if
I'm just checking spelling or a definition. If I'm seriously looking at a
word, I'll consult both.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb  9 04:59:21 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 23:59:21 -0500
Subject: Alreet (1938); Frontier Folksay (1977)
Message-ID: <TUE.8.FEB.2005.235921.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ALREET

Ben writes:

"Reet, Petite, and Gone" (the Louis Jordan song and the movie of the same
name) didn't appear until 1947.  More likely, the Down Beat article was
referencing Cab Calloway's 1941 song "Are You All Reet?", a compendium of
hep-cat slang...


What about Gene Krupa?

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Title: Wire brush stomp
Author(s): Krupa, Gene, 1909-1973.  (Performer - prf); O'Day, Anita. ; (Performer - prf); Daye, Irene. ; (Performer - prf); DuLany, Howard. ; (Performer - prf); Watson, Leo,; 1898-1950. ; (Performer - prf)
Publication: [United States] :; Bandstand Records,
Year: 1974, 1938
Description: 1 sound disc :; analog, 33 1/3 rpm ;; 12 in.
Language: English
Music Type: Jazz; Multiple forms; Popular music
Standard No: Publisher: BS-7117; Bandstand
Contents: The madame swings it -- Jam on toast -- Bolero at the Savoy -- Murdy purdy -- Nagasaki -- Some like it hot -- Meet the beat of my heart -- Marchetta -- Symphony in riffs -- Alreet -- Wire brush stomp -- Slow down -- Flamingo -- Manhattan transfer -- Watch the birdie -- The big do.

(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Title: [Songs /
Author(s): Calloway, Cab, 1907- ; Palmer, Jack. ; Clark, Allan. ; Mills, Irving,; 1894-1985. ; (Lyricist - lyr); Gaskill, Clarence,; 1892-1947. ; Akst, Harry,; 1894-1963. ; (Lyricist - lyr); Arlen, Harold,; 1905-1986. ; Koehler, Ted,; 1894-1973. ; (Lyricist - lyr); Parish, Mitchell. ; (Lyricist - lyr); Perkins, Frank,; 1908- ; Bloom, Rube. ; Redman, Don. ; Ram, Buck. ; Stone, Jessie,; 1901- ; Fowler, Lem. ; Davis, Benny,; 1895-1979. ; Coots, J. Fred,; 1897- ; Gibson, Andy,; 1913-1961. ; Theard, Sam,; 1904- ; Nemo, Henry,; 1914- ; (Lyricist - lyr)
Year: 1931-1942
Description: 11 scores :; ill. (some col.) ;; 32 cm. or smaller.
Language: English
Music Type: Songs
Contents: Are yow in love with me again? -- Are yow all reet! -- Cab Calloway's jive jubilee of songs -- I like music -- Jonah joins the Cab -- The Jumpin' jive (Hep-hep!) -- Lady with the fan -- Lavender languor -- Minnie the moocher (The Ho de ho song) -- The Seat song (Scat 'n 'skeet 'n' hi de hi) (2 copies).

--------------------------------------------------------------
FRONTIER FOLKSAY:
PROVERBIAL LORE OF THE INLAND PACIFIC NORTHWEST FRONTIER
by Donald M. Hines
Norwood Editions
1977

I've been looking at this book. Lots of nice stuff.

Pg. 40:
"What did the children of Isreal eat in the desert?--They ate the sand which is (sandwiches) there."
(CC4 #39, 21 June 1889 p. 6 FUNNY SIDE OF LIFE); cf. Loomis, "Wordplay," p. 239: "Why do people go to Gibb's and to California? Because of the _sand_-_which_-_is_ there (29 December 1848)."

Pg. 106:
"A lean agreement is better than a fat law suit." (WWU 8 #29, 21 Oct 1876 p 4, PROVERBS OF THE AGES [ITAL.].) Cf. Oxford 314 I11.

Pg. 131:
"Better to be a live coward than a dead hero." (Heard during 1961 from Mr. Ben Ensely, Tualatin, Ore.) Cf. Brown I 388; cf. Barbour 41 #3.

(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Atlanta Constitution  Monday, March 27, 1905 Atlanta, Georgia
...I would prefer to be known as a LIVE COWARD rather than a DEAD HERO. You say.....the artistic AND literary of Boston AND New York the past foil AND winter..

   Nebraska State Journal  Saturday, June 17, 1899 Lincoln, Nebraska
...that he would much rather be a LIVE COWARD than a DEAD HERO. Instead of.....talking of DEAD statecraft, DEAD conditions AND DEAD statesmen AND..

   Nebraska State Journal  Tuesday, May 03, 1898 Lincoln, Nebraska
...slaters AND sweethearts that a LIVE COWARD Is worth more to them than a DEAD.....cities. It allows the men to ratrmin HERO for another week at Imist. AND thfn..

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
WHY HE LOST HIS BRIDE.; He Ran Away from Battle and Hid In a Hollow Log.
The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 16, 1890. p. 9 (1 page):
"I'd rather a -- sight be a live coward than a dead hero."

(To be continued)


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Feb  9 06:32:54 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 01:32:54 -0500
Subject: Alreet (1938); Frontier Folksay (1977)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.013254.0500.>

On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 23:59:21 -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>ALREET
>
>Ben writes:
>
>"Reet, Petite, and Gone" (the Louis Jordan song and the movie of the same
>name) didn't appear until 1947.  More likely, the Down Beat article was
>referencing Cab Calloway's 1941 song "Are You All Reet?", a compendium of
>hep-cat slang...
>
>What about Gene Krupa?
>
>(OCLC WORLDCAT)
>Title: Wire brush stomp
>Author(s): Krupa, Gene, 1909-1973.  (Performer - prf); O'Day, Anita. ;
(Performer - prf); Daye, Irene. ; (Performer - prf); DuLany, Howard. ;
(Performer - prf); Watson, Leo,; 1898-1950. ; (Performer - prf)
>Publication: [United States] :; Bandstand Records,
>Year: 1974, 1938
>Description: 1 sound disc :; analog, 33 1/3 rpm ;; 12 in.
>Language: English
>Music Type: Jazz; Multiple forms; Popular music
>Standard No: Publisher: BS-7117; Bandstand
>Contents: The madame swings it -- Jam on toast -- Bolero at the Savoy --
>Murdy purdy -- Nagasaki -- Some like it hot -- Meet the beat of my heart
>-- Marchetta -- Symphony in riffs -- Alreet -- Wire brush stomp -- Slow
>down -- Flamingo -- Manhattan transfer -- Watch the birdie -- The big do.

"Wire Brush Stomp" was evidently an LP that compiled recordings by Krupa
dating from 1938 to 1941.  Note the years on the album cover:
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:aa4gtq3znu4p

According to this seemingly authoritative site, "Alreet" was recorded in
March 1941:

  http://www.gkrp.net/1941.html
  Gene Krupa & his Orchestra: New York, March 12, 1941
  CO-29921-1     Alreet - vAOD/aEH     Okeh 6118

I think "all reet" could have achieved WOTY status in 1941...  Besides
Krupa and Calloway, Duke Ellington and Earl Hines also used it that year:

   "Five O'Clock Drag" (Duke Ellington) - recorded Sept. 26, 1941
   Five O'clock Drag is jumpin'
   The drummer man's beat is thumpin';
   Five O'clock Drag is sumpin'
   That really does "all reet."
   http://www.searchlyrics.org/duke_ellington/five_o'clock_drag.html
   http://www.depanorama.net/1940s1.htm

   "The Jitney Man" (Earl Hines) - recorded Nov. 17, 1941
   Oh, I can drive I can,
   Behind this wheel I'm the man,
   Take it easy in your seat,
   Everything will be all reet,
   Holly-la-ally-ah
   I'm the jitney man!
   http://heptune.com/jitneyma.html

Looks like Calloway was the trendsetter, though, as his song was recorded
on Jan. 16, 1941, according to <http://heptune.com/lyrics/areyoual.html>.

--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb  9 06:59:38 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 01:59:38 -0500
Subject: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.015938.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NEW YORK FOLKLORE QUARTERLY, vol. 26, no. 3, Sept. 1970
FROM ADVICE TO LAMENTS ONCE AGAIN:
NEW YORK AUTOGRAPH ALBUM VERSE: 1850-1900

W. K. McNEIL

Pg. 168:
The two most frequently appearing variants were:

Remember me ever.
Forget me never.
And think of your friend
Forever and ever.
(NOTES: inscription by Jesse Jones dated 1882--ed.)

and

Rmember me early
Remember me late.
Remember me ever,
Your old school-mate.

Pg. 185:
to those which were obviously intended to provoke laughter:

All that is made by an old maid
Is a pretty good glass of lemonade.
(NOTES: inscription by Dave dated June 2, 1878. Almost made in the shade! Maybe it was just old Minute Maid Lemonade--ed.)

Pg. 189:
to the inexplicable:

Salt is good,
Cake is better,
But not as good,
As red hot pepper.
(NOTES: Manuscript, autograph album of Julia Van Ness Clark of Ithaca, New York covering the years 1866-1868, inscription by S. V. R. Hayward. It's not inexplicable! It's an early citation for the popular jump-rope rhyme! Maybe NYFQ needed an editor--ed.)

Pg. 195:
Unquestionably the most popular of the formulae rhymes was:

YYUR
YYUB
ICUR
YY4me.

Translated this reads:

Too wise you are
Too wise you be
I see you are
Too wise for me.

--------------------------------------------------------------
NEW YORK FOLKLORE QUARTERLY, vol. 25, no. 3, Sept. 1969
Pg. 221:

SOME RHYMES, GAMES, AND SONGS FROM CHILDREN IN THE NEW ROCHELLE AREA

BARBARA CASTAGNA

The following is a listing of a variety of rhymes, songs, games and riddles collected in New ROchelle, New York, in April, 1969, from children between the ages of three and twelve.
(...)
(Jump Rope Rhymes--ed.)
----&--- sitting in a tree
K-I-S-S-I-N-G
First comes loves
Then comes marriage
Then comes ___ pushing a baby carriage

Pg. 224:
Lemon and lime
Said to be on time
(the leader does 1)
2, 3, 4, 5,...

Pg. 225:
House, house, house for sale
The man upstairs is drinking gin
And drinking gin is a very bad sin
So I moved out and _Debbie_ moved in.

Pg. 227 (Counting-Out Rhymes):
Ink-a-dink, a bottle of ink
The cork fell out and you stink.
Not because you're dirty.
Not because you're clean.
Just because you kissed a girl behind a magazine.

Pg. 228 (Jeer or Teasing Rhymes):
_Tony_ balogna
Full of macaroni

_Joanie_ is a dope
She ate a piece of soap.
Bubbles here, bubbles there
Bubbles in her underwear.

Suck your toe
And go to Mexico

Pg. 229:
Baby, baby
Stick your head in gravy.
Wash it out with bubble gum (Or "kerosene"--ed.)
And send it to the Navy.

I see London
I see France
I see (_somebody's_) underpants.
Not so big, not so small
Just the size of a cannon ball.

(Autograph Rhymes--ed.)

Roses are red
Lincoln is dead
His cabin is empty
And so is your head

Violets are blue
And I turned red
As soon as I saw you nude in bed

Pg. 230:
Can't think
Brain dumb
Inspiration won't come

Bad ink
Bad pen
Best wishes, Amen

Pg. 231 (Songs):
Ten whole pounds of greasy grimy gopher's guts
Mutilated monkey's meat
Itsy bitsy birdies feet
Five whole pounds of all purpose porpoise pus
All in Mulligan's stew
Luckily I forgot the spoons
But we have s-t-r-a-w-s.

Jingle bells
Santa smells
Fifteen miles away
Oh! what fun it is to ride
In a broken Chevrolet.

Pg. 233:
Hurray! for horse manure
I got it from the sewer
Horse manure is fun to eat
We gave it up for trick or treat
Hurray! for horse manure.

Pg. 234:
Glory, glory hallelujah
Teacher hit me with a ruler
Hid behind the door with a loaded forty-four
And the teacher taught no more.

Glory, glory hallelujah
The teacher hit me with a ruler
The ruler turned red
And the teacher dropped dead
His truth is marching on.

My eyes have seen the glory
Of the burning of the school
We have tortured all the teachers
We have broken all the rules
We have tried to kill the principal
Tomorrow afternoon
His truth is marching on.

(Circle Game--ed.)

Little Sally Saucer
Sitting in the water
Rise, Sally, rise
Wipe off your eyes Sally.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
SOUNDS OF A SUMMER CAMP
HERBERT MITGANG.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 14, 1959. p. X17 (1 page):
In _THe SOunds of Camp_, counselors and kids do the talking. For example, the waterfront man calls out a "buddy check," as hundreds of children are swimming. The made-up lyrics that sweep a camp are included; here it is something called "Great Green Globs of Greasy Grimy Gopher Guts."

(It's from Folkways. Maybe this or _Songs of Camp_ has "I must, I must, I must increase my bust" and other classics?--ed.)

(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
Merry's Monthly Chat with his Friends.; ANSWERS TO PUZZLES IN APRIL NO. ANAGRAMS. ENIGMA. CONUNDRUMS. ENIGMA. PUZZLE. CONUNDRUM. ENIGMA. ENIGMA BY E. A. ROOT, BINGHAMPTON. CHARADES. ENIGMA BY C. M. S., PROVIDENCE. ENIGMA BY HENRY FULLER, TRENTON. CONUNDRUMS. ENIGMA. PUZZLE. ANAGRAMS BY L. C., OF CINCINNATI. CONUNDRUM. PUZZLE. CONUNDRUMS BY LIZZIE. ARITHMETICAL QUESTION, BY ANNIE.
Merry's Museum and Parley's Magazine (1852-1857). Boston: Jan 1, 1853. Vol. 25; p. 162 (3 pages)
Second page:
PUZZLE.
"Y y u r y y u b I c u r y y for me."

Merry's Monthly Chat with his Friends.; CONUNDRUMS. PUZZLE. ANAGRAMS BY GEORGE OF SYRACUSE. CONUNDRUM.
Merry's Museum and Parley's Magazine (1852-1857). Boston: Jan 1, 1853. Vol. 25; p. 195 (2 pages)
Second page:
To Mary's puzzle, which is, "too wise you are, too wise you be, I see you are too wise for me."

(Something is wrong. These are not both January 1, 1853--ed.)


From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM  Wed Feb  9 07:21:56 2005
From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 01:21:56 -0600
Subject: blawg -- new to me
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.012156.0600.>

 From http://blawg.com:

Blawg, n, a weblog with emphasis on the law or legal related issues and
concerns, often maintained by an individual who studies, practices or
otherwise works in the legal field.

--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Decluttering: http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb  9 07:30:14 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 02:30:14 -0500
Subject: blawg -- new to me
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.023014.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(FACTIVA)
Lawyers who 'blawg'

Jason Krause
1,837 words
1 March 2003
ABA Journal
42
ISSN: 0747-0088
English
Copyright (c) 2003 ProQuest Information and Learning. All rights reserved. Copyright American Bar Association Mar 2003

LEGAL WEB LOGS

Attorneys Are Finding Fans (and Some Fame) Posting Legal Commentary on the Net

I'VE STARTED GETTING FAN MAIL now," says Martin Schwimmer, publisher of the Web log called the Trademark Blog. "It's safe to say that I got virtually no fan letters when I was just a trademark lawyer.

Schwimmer is one of a few savvy legal professioals who have found that by self-publishing logs on the Internet, they can attract a wide audience hungry for information about even some of the more obscure legal topics.

Web logs, or blogs for short. are simple Web pages where anyone can collect links to interesting articles and publish personal comentary. Blogs, sometimes spelled "blawgs" in a legal context, have become a popular way for lawyers to keep up with legal news and trends. Think of bloggers as people who surf the Web so you don't have to, collecting the most interesting and newsworthy information in one place, complete with explanatory text.

Web logs like Schwimmer's site or Howard Bashman's How Appealing are proving that even arcane areas of the law are endlessly fertile ground for commentary and can have a broad appeal. After journalists, in fact, lawyers and law professors publish some of the best-- known Web logs. Instapundit by Glenn Reynolds, a University of Tennessee law professor, is one of the most popular blogs on the planet. However, his is more of a general interest publication, and this article profiles only practicing lawyers and law professionals who blog about legal issues (yes, "blog" has already entered the vernacular as a verb).

Why have lawyers taken to blogging? "To me it may not be entirely practical, but lawyers are a gregarious people," says Eugene Volokh, a UCLA law professor who writes the Volokh Conspiracy. "A lot of them don't have an outlet for their interests. Blawgs give them that."

(...)


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Feb  9 08:08:22 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 03:08:22 -0500
Subject: blawg -- new to me
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.030822.0500.>

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 02:30:14 -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>(FACTIVA)
>Lawyers who 'blawg'
>
>Jason Krause
>1,837 words
>1 March 2003
>ABA Journal
>42

-----
Law Practice Management, July/August 2002, Vol. 28; No. 5; Pg. 8
Denise Howell, a lawyer with Crosby Heafey Roach & May, has a weblog
called "Bag and Baggage" (http://bgbg.blogspot.com). As of this writing,
she maintains the most exhaustive list of law blogs, which she calls
"blawgs." It includes the blogs of more than 35 judges, lawyers, law
students and law professors.
-----

A quick search on Howell's page finds that she had started using the term
"blawg" frequently by April 2002:

-----
http://bgbg.blogspot.com/2002_03_31_bgbg_archive.html

April 04, 2002
Blawg Additions: Some cool blawgs join the roster today...

April 06, 2002
So staggering that my attempt to keep a comprehensive "blawg"-alogue
probably is doomed from the get-go.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Feb  9 08:35:30 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 03:35:30 -0500
Subject: blawg -- new to me
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.033530.0500.>

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 03:08:22 -0500, I wrote:

>-----
>Law Practice Management, July/August 2002, Vol. 28; No. 5; Pg. 8
>Denise Howell, a lawyer with Crosby Heafey Roach & May, has a weblog
>called "Bag and Baggage" (http://bgbg.blogspot.com). As of this writing,
>she maintains the most exhaustive list of law blogs, which she calls
>"blawgs." It includes the blogs of more than 35 judges, lawyers, law
>students and law professors.
>-----
>
>A quick search on Howell's page finds that she had started using the term
>"blawg" frequently by April 2002:
>
>-----
>http://bgbg.blogspot.com/2002_03_31_bgbg_archive.html
>
>April 04, 2002
>Blawg Additions: Some cool blawgs join the roster today...
>
>April 06, 2002
>So staggering that my attempt to keep a comprehensive "blawg"-alogue
>probably is doomed from the get-go.
>-----

Whoops-- she started using "blawg" at least a month earlier:

-----
http://bgbg.blogspot.com/2002/03/what-is-it-and-blogging-law.html
March 05, 2002
As demonstrable evidence, I submit some new "Blawg" additions to the Menage.
-----
http://howlingpoint.net/life/index.php?m=20020305
March 05, 2002
Denise Howell made a very friendly post, sent a very flattering e-mail and
linked us from her law-oriented blog, Bag and Baggage. We?re not just
mentioned, but listed in her Blawg list.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Wed Feb  9 09:11:31 2005
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 04:11:31 -0500
Subject: neck-tie carnival
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.041131.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Seems to me that I have seen other instances of this euphemism for
lynching, but I can't place them...


http://www.ausbcomp.com/~bbott/cowley/oldnews/papersup/cour31.htm

Winfield Courier, February 1, 1883.
[Winfield Kansas]

>Our most excellent Sheriff's many warm friends in this community deeply
>regret the terrible calamity that has befallen him. They are highly
>incensed toward the
>heartless villain who so desperately attacked his life. It was a thousand
>pities that this embryonic desperado was not given the benefit of a
>neck-tie carnival. While
>we respect the law of the land, and believe in maintaining its dignity; at
>the same time we think it a wholesome idea to purify the country of
>atrocious, reckless,
>infamous dare-devils by summarily dispatching several of them in a manner
>that would be a forcible reminder and an impressive warning to bandits,
>outlaws, and
>vicious characters generally. It is to be hoped that Cowley County will
>not be thus ruthlessly deprived of her brave and noble Sheriff, and that
>the feelings of her
>honored citizens may not be sorely grieved by any sad ending of this
>tragical affair. HORATIUS.

Michael McKernan


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Wed Feb  9 11:50:30 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:50:30 +0000
Subject: pernil
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.115030.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Don't know whether 'pernil' is in the dictionary, not having access to OED
online, but here's a citation:

'The Casio returned with more weed and ate her pernil [italicised in
original] and avocado and they smoked again and went to bed.'
- Bruce Benderson, 'User', Plume/Penguin, NY, 1995, 35

-Neil Crawford


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Wed Feb  9 12:10:36 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:10:36 +0000
Subject: cerebrally challenged
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.121036.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is anyone collecting this sort of stuff?

'I wasn't certain she had both oars in the water.'
-Lawrence Sanders, 'The Eighth Commandment', New English Library, London,
1986, 147

'Again, I reflected that her back burners were not fully operative.'
-ibid, 159


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Feb  9 12:12:45 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 07:12:45 -0500
Subject: neck-tie social (new sense?)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.071245.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DARE has

necktie party (of course)
necktie frolic (Carson Valley News, 1876)
necktie sociable (Harper's New Monthly, 1871)
necktie party (National Geographic, 1882)
necktie social (n.q.--but ...

In the evening, Mr. Jas. Montgomery gave a necktie soical in aid of the
enterprise, realizing $11.65.  An extensive and bountiful table was set in
the school house, and, after ample justice was done to it, the meeting was
called to order by Mr. Chas. House, of Pigeon Lake, who discharged the
duties of chairman in a very able and most pleasing manner.  Manitoba
Daily Free Press, Jan. 15, 1880, p 1

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Wednesday, February
09, 2005 at 4:11 AM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Michael McKernan <mckernan at LOCALNET.COM>
>Subject:      neck-tie carnival
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Seems to me that I have seen other instances of this euphemism for
>lynching, but I can't place them...
>
>
>http://www.ausbcomp.com/~bbott/cowley/oldnews/papersup/cour31.htm
>
>Winfield Courier, February 1, 1883.
>[Winfield Kansas]
>
>>Our most excellent Sheriff's many warm friends in this community deeply
>>regret the terrible calamity that has befallen him. They are highly
>>incensed toward the
>>heartless villain who so desperately attacked his life. It was a thousand
>>pities that this embryonic desperado was not given the benefit of a
>>neck-tie carnival. While
>>we respect the law of the land, and believe in maintaining its dignity;
>at
>>the same time we think it a wholesome idea to purify the country of
>>atrocious, reckless,
>>infamous dare-devils by summarily dispatching several of them in a manner
>>that would be a forcible reminder and an impressive warning to bandits,
>>outlaws, and
>>vicious characters generally. It is to be hoped that Cowley County will
>>not be thus ruthlessly deprived of her brave and noble Sheriff, and that
>>the feelings of her
>>honored citizens may not be sorely grieved by any sad ending of this
>>tragical affair. HORATIUS.
>
>Michael McKernan


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Wed Feb  9 13:12:12 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:12:12 +0000
Subject: ? for Tom Dalzell
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.131212.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In 'The Slang of Sin' did you really mean 'stroke' the furnace (as printed)
for female masturbation - or is it a misprint for 'stoke'?

-Neil Crawford


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Wed Feb  9 13:46:18 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 08:46:18 -0500
Subject: necktie social (=hanging, 1888)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.084618.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An Arizona Necktie Social.  ?Hello!  What?s this?? asked a benevolent
resident of an Arizona town, as he came suddenly upon a necktie social in
full blast.
?Just stringin up a dude,? explained one of the party, as he took a better
hold on the rope.
?Wall, that?s nawthin? to hang a man fer.?
?But he?s from Boston.?
?Wall, don?t hang the poor feller fer that.  Yer see he left the place.?
?An? he?s stole a hoss.?
?So hev the most of us, pardners.?
?An? he dropped Red Shirt Dick, this mornin?.  Killed him dead as a
doornail.?
?Oh, that nawthin?,? persisted the benevolent resident.
?An? he sez eye-ther and nigh-ther.?
?You don?t say!? exclaimed the benevolent chap, excitedly.  ?Up he goes!
Pull on that rope lively.?
Fitchburg Sentinel [Mass.] (NewspaperArchive.com), March 24, 1888, p 2


From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Wed Feb  9 14:24:50 2005
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:24:50 -0500
Subject: neck-tie social (new sense?)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.092450.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David Barnhart wrote:

>DARE has
>
>necktie party (of course)
>necktie frolic (Carson Valley News, 1876)
>necktie sociable (Harper's New Monthly, 1871)
>necktie party (National Geographic, 1882)
>necktie social (n.q.--but ...

These are all forms of a social event, AKA 'necktie and apron party', where
the fabric used to construct a necktie (for a man) and an apron or other
garment (for a woman> were used as a 'blind' partnering device, with the
men bidding on the neckties, and ended up partnered with the woman of the
apron (etc.).  Most commonly, these were social dance events; the
apron/necktie partnering, as with all social dance partnering in the
Euro-American traditions, was a form of mock-marriage.

In the 'necktie carnival' cited below, however, the implication is very
different, in keeping with Barnhart's later citation:

>An Arizona Necktie Social.  ?Hello!  What?s this?? asked a benevolent
>resident of an Arizona town, as he came suddenly upon a necktie social in
>full blast.
>?Just stringin up a dude,? explained one of the party, as he took a better
>hold on the rope.
>?Wall, that?s nawthin? to hang a man fer.?
>?But he?s from Boston.?
>?Wall, don?t hang the poor feller fer that.  Yer see he left the place.?
>?An? he?s stole a hoss.?
>?So hev the most of us, pardners.?
>?An? he dropped Red Shirt Dick, this mornin?.  Killed him dead as a
>doornail.?
>?Oh, that nawthin?,? persisted the benevolent resident.
>?An? he sez eye-ther and nigh-ther.?
>?You don?t say!? exclaimed the benevolent chap, excitedly.  ?Up he goes!
>Pull on that rope lively.?
>Fitchburg Sentinel [Mass.] (NewspaperArchive.com), March 24, 1888, p 2

Seems that the title of the social event has been comandeered as a cute
phrase for lynching...

>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Michael McKernan <mckernan at LOCALNET.COM>
>>Subject:      neck-tie carnival
>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>-
>>
>>Seems to me that I have seen other instances of this euphemism for
>>lynching, but I can't place them...
>>
>>
>>http://www.ausbcomp.com/~bbott/cowley/oldnews/papersup/cour31.htm
>>
>>Winfield Courier, February 1, 1883.
>>[Winfield Kansas]
>>
>>>Our most excellent Sheriff's many warm friends in this community deeply
>>>regret the terrible calamity that has befallen him. They are highly
>>>incensed toward the
>>>heartless villain who so desperately attacked his life. It was a thousand
>>>pities that this embryonic desperado was not given the benefit of a
>>>neck-tie carnival. While
>>>we respect the law of the land, and believe in maintaining its dignity;
>>at
>>>the same time we think it a wholesome idea to purify the country of
>>>atrocious, reckless,
>>>infamous dare-devils by summarily dispatching several of them in a manner
>>>that would be a forcible reminder and an impressive warning to bandits,
>>>outlaws, and
>>>vicious characters generally. It is to be hoped that Cowley County will
>>>not be thus ruthlessly deprived of her brave and noble Sheriff, and that
>>>the feelings of her
>>>honored citizens may not be sorely grieved by any sad ending of this
>>>tragical affair. HORATIUS.
>>
>>Michael McKernan


Michael McKernan


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb  9 14:25:47 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:25:47 -0500
Subject: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
In-Reply-To: <E1CylpB-0001u6-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.092547.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:59 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>
> Little Sally Saucer
> Sitting in the water
> Rise, Sally, rise
> Wipe off your eyes Sally.
>

An alternative version from East Texas (I learned it there, but, given
that variations of this variation appear in black pop music, e.g. the
couplet, "Put your hands on your hips / And let your backbone slip"
occurs in the 1959 song, "The Booty Green," I think that it is/was
universal amongst the colored. Since I learned this from my mother,
who's now 91, I'd guess that this version is probably at least a
century old.)

Little Sally Walker
Sitting in a saucer
Rise, Sally, Rise
Wipe your weeping eyes
Put your hands on your hips
And let your backbone slip
Shake it to the east
Shake it to the west
Shake it to the one
You love the best

-Wilson Gray


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb  9 14:31:32 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:31:32 -0500
Subject: necktie social (=hanging, 1888)
In-Reply-To: <E1CysAg-0001gH-00@mx19.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.093132.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I recall "necktie party" as a common cliche heard in the horse-operas
of the '40's. "Necktie carnival" and "necktie social" are new to me.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 9, 2005, at 8:46 AM, Barnhart wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM>
> Subject:      necktie social (=hanging, 1888)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> An Arizona Necktie Social.  ?Hello!  What?s this?? asked a benevolent
> resident of an Arizona town, as he came suddenly upon a necktie social
> in
> full blast.
> ?Just stringin up a dude,? explained one of the party, as he took a
> better
> hold on the rope.
> ?Wall, that?s nawthin? to hang a man fer.?
> ?But he?s from Boston.?
> ?Wall, don?t hang the poor feller fer that.  Yer see he left the
> place.?
> ?An? he?s stole a hoss.?
> ?So hev the most of us, pardners.?
> ?An? he dropped Red Shirt Dick, this mornin?.  Killed him dead as a
> doornail.?
> ?Oh, that nawthin?,? persisted the benevolent resident.
> ?An? he sez eye-ther and nigh-ther.?
> ?You don?t say!? exclaimed the benevolent chap, excitedly.  ?Up he
> goes!
> Pull on that rope lively.?
> Fitchburg Sentinel [Mass.] (NewspaperArchive.com), March 24, 1888, p 2
>


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Feb  9 15:07:28 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:07:28 -0500
Subject: Reuters article on Scamto, new South African slang
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.100728.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

see http://tinyurl.com/4uvxc for complete article.

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]

--------

Slang Symbol of New Diversity

By Rebecca Harrison

JOHANNESBURG (Reuters) - Fancy some Jesus and his brothers, or a ride in a 
g-string? And why is it that abantu abu baie bane kwal'nge-cherry?

This is South Africa's latest street slang -- a mix of the 11 official 
languages with nicknames thrown in for beer, cars, weapons and sexual 
positions that has grown out of the country's sprawling townships.

Hailed by its fans as a symbol of the country's diversity 11 years after the 
end of apartheid, "scamto" has become the language of choice for South 
Africa's black urban youth and its first exhaustive guide is due out next 
month.

"It's real, it's raw, and it captures the diversity and confidence of the 
new South Africa," said 24-year-old advertising executive Lebo Motshegoa 
from Soweto, the author of "Township Talk: The People, the Language, the 
Culture."

 	[...]

02/08/05 08:32

? Copyright Reuters Ltd


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb  9 15:09:56 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 07:09:56 -0800
Subject: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.070956.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson, does "The Booty Green" (1959) contain an ex. of "booty" = sex?

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:59 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>
> Little Sally Saucer
> Sitting in the water
> Rise, Sally, rise
> Wipe off your eyes Sally.
>

An alternative version from East Texas (I learned it there, but, given
that variations of this variation appear in black pop music, e.g. the
couplet, "Put your hands on your hips / And let your backbone slip"
occurs in the 1959 song, "The Booty Green," I think that it is/was
universal amongst the colored. Since I learned this from my mother,
who's now 91, I'd guess that this version is probably at least a
century old.)

Little Sally Walker
Sitting in a saucer
Rise, Sally, Rise
Wipe your weeping eyes
Put your hands on your hips
And let your backbone slip
Shake it to the east
Shake it to the west
Shake it to the one
You love the best

-Wilson Gray


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Feb  9 15:21:26 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:21:26 -0500
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <20050209050218.F3F95B2630@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.102126.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Patti J. Kurtz" <kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET> corrects me:
   >>>>>
A is no longer reserved for military-- my husband's call sign starts
with A (AB0ZB)  They changed a lot of that when they went from FCC
examiners to amateurs doing the testing.  But the numbers do still
indicate the region of the US  (0 being the Upper Midwest)
 <<<<<

But I have heard that when a ham moves from one part of the country to
another, they* can now take their old call sign along without appending "/n"
= "portable n" (n = the number of their new region), with the result that
the region number now tells you only where they lived when they qualified
for their license, not where they are now. Can your OM confirm this for me?

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
* plural for epicene singular. Wanna make something of it?


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Wed Feb  9 15:26:51 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:26:51 -0600
Subject: "Dittybop / Dittybopper"
In-Reply-To: <200502091021.665420a2a772fe@rly-nc01.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.092651.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, Mark-- that is true.  My husband had a 7 call sign in Idaho and
when we moved to Ohio, he kept it.  He only changed his call when we
came here voluntarily.  (not sure why)  So the region number may tell
you where they live, if they voluntarily (or what's called
systematically) change their call sign when they move or upgrade to a
higher level (my husband's an Extra class)  or it may tell you only
where they lived when they got their license initially.

BTW the higher you go in the levels, the shorter the call sign gets,
too.  Typically, the longer call signs are used for the novices.)

Patti

mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU wrote:

>But I have heard that when a ham moves from one part of the country to
>another, they* can now take their old call sign along without appending "/n"
>= "portable n" (n = the number of their new region), with the result that
>the region number now tells you only where they lived when they qualified
>for their license, not where they are now. Can your OM confirm this for me?
>
>-- Mark
>[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
>* plural for epicene singular. Wanna make something of it?
>
>

--

Dr. Patti J. Kurtz

Assistant Professor, English

Director of the Writing Center

Minot State University

Minot, ND 58707



Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that.



Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims
that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program?



Foster: But we are RIGHT!



Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough.


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Wed Feb  9 15:33:01 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:33:01 -0500
Subject: The stink/The stank
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.103301.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> boggles:
    >>>>>
  WTF, Mark?! Is my writing really so obscure? My whole point is that,
unfortunately, there are some black people, even in academia, who
accept such syllogisms as fully logical and do not - or refuse to -
recognize them as nonsense. If my example syllogism had been logically
true, it would have been totally beside the point. And "All Africans
are black" is likewise false, even if one restricts oneself to
sub-Saharan Africa.
  <<<<<

Sorry, Wilson. It's not so much that your writing is obscure as that I am
sometimes obtuse, at least in inferring irony. I was, indeed, rather
seriously surprised to see such nonsense over your signature. Obviously I
missed the point. And in fact I even rewrote my criticism to ameliorate it,
limiting it to the logical structure and ignoring the ethnographic facts.

-- Mark
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From sales at LIFELINKNET.COM  Wed Feb  9 16:40:54 2005
From: sales at LIFELINKNET.COM (David Blanco)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 08:40:54 -0800
Subject: Mail list
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.084054.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We purchase list for a "one time mailing" and are allowed to maintain the
name only if the customer responds to our solicitation.  You are not on any
current list of ours.

Sincerely,
David Blanco
----- Original Message -----
From: "Billy Thomas" <billyeo2003 at SBCGLOBAL.NET>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: Mail list


Someone subscribed me to your list and about 300 others.Please take me off
of your mail list.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Feb  9 17:48:36 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 09:48:36 -0800
Subject: Nathan Bierma on Northern Cities Shift
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.094836.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

... with an appearance by Our DInIs:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi
-0502090260feb09,1,7163783.story


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Feb  9 18:09:25 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:09:25 -0500
Subject: Daschled
In-Reply-To: <40962.69.142.143.59.1107904100.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutger s.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.130925.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This was part of a letter sent out by Anne Lewis of the DSCC just today,
with reference to Sen Harry Reid:
Republicans are again playing their tired old game of trying to
demonize--in their words "Daschle-ize"--anyone who disagrees with them.

This implies that the Republicans are consciously using this verb form, at
least.


At 06:08 PM 2/8/2005, you wrote:
>This one was already noted by the good folks at Experimental Linguistics:
><http://expling.blogspot.com/2004/11/daschledandcheneyed.html>.
>But will it have the staying power of "Borked" or "Fisking"?
>
>
>[2002 _Broadcasting & Cable_ 11 Feb. (Proquest) 4 (heading) Hopes Daschled?]
>
>[2004 _Daily News_ (NY) 4 Nov. (Nexis) 21 (heading) Dem spirits Daschled.]
>
>2004 AmericaLovingCanadian (weblog) 4 Nov., Even though Reid is from a
>"red state", he just won re-election, so he will not have to worry about
>being "Daschled", at least not for 6 years.
><http://jbloedow.blogspot.com/2004_11_01_jbloedow_archive.html>
>
>2004 Wampum (weblog) 6 Nov., Conrad, despite being an excellent Senator
>and the personification of fiscal responsibility, is reasonably likely to
>be Daschled.
><http://wampum.wabanaki.net/archives/001354.html>
>
>2004 _New York Times_ 7 Nov. (Week in Review) 3/1 Already, there is a new
>verb floating around the Capitol: "Daschled." It describes what can happen
>to those, like the Senate Democratic Leader Tom Daschle, who oppose
>Republican legislation and then lose re-election in heavily Republican
>states. ...  "If we've got troubles in Iraq and the economy's in the
>toilet then Democrats are not going to worry about being Daschled," he
>said.
>
>2004 Salon War Room (weblog) 8 Nov., But Josh Marshall points out that
>even a newcomer like Senator-elect John Thune, empowered by his Daschling
>of Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, is dangling the possibility that
>Specter will be punished for his sins.
>http://archive.salon.com/politics/war_room/2004/11/08/specter/
>
>2004 PaperSpray (weblog) 22 Nov., Daschled - A way to describe someone who
>has lost out because of lack of personality and charisma, even though they
>may be much more competent than the close-minded Republican asshole who
>beat him. "Former Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle was Daschled right
>out of his Senate Seat by Tom Thune, a total prick who likes to tout
>bibles."
><http://timpratt.blogspot.com/2004/11/hot-words-terms.html>
>
>2005 _Montgomery Advertiser_ (Ala.) 16 Jan. (online) "Getting Daschled" is
>now a real concern for many liberal members of Congress in both political
>parties, but especially for Democrats. Yet, because their base is so
>left-wing, liberal Democrats also fear getting "primaried," that is,
>losing to another liberal in their party's primary.
><http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/NEWSV5/storyV5edvoice116w.htm>
>
>
>--Ben Zimmer


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Feb  9 18:30:40 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:30:40 -0500
Subject: Nathan Bierma on Northern Cities Shift
In-Reply-To: <4e7c10f58326c260be0ec00090c3b716@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.133040.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I can't read the Bierma piece without subscribing.  Arnold, can you forward
the article?

At 12:48 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
>.... with an appearance by Our DInIs:
>
>http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi
>-0502090260feb09,1,7163783.story


From gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU  Wed Feb  9 18:46:46 2005
From: gordonmj at MISSOURI.EDU (Matthew Gordon)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:46:46 -0600
Subject: Nathan Bierma on Northern Cities Shift
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050209132941.032ac800@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.124646.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

you don't have to subscribe; it's just that not all of the url was html

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi-0502090260feb09,1,7163783.story

On 2/9/05 12:30 PM, "Beverly Flanigan" <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:

> I can't read the Bierma piece without subscribing.  Arnold, can you forward
> the article?
>
> At 12:48 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
>> .... with an appearance by Our DInIs:
>>
>> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi
>> -0502090260feb09,1,7163783.story


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Wed Feb  9 18:46:12 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 12:46:12 -0600
Subject: Nathan Bierma on Northern Cities Shift
In-Reply-To: <200502091340.766420a59063c8@rly-nc06.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.124612.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Try this:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi-0502090260feb09,1,7163783.story?ctrack=3&cset=true


The URL in Arnold's message was cut in two.

Patti
flanigan at OHIOU.EDU wrote:

>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: Nathan Bierma on Northern Cities Shift
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I can't read the Bierma piece without subscribing.  Arnold, can you forward
>the article?
>
>At 12:48 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
>
>
>>.... with an appearance by Our DInIs:
>>
>>http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi
>>-0502090260feb09,1,7163783.story
>>
>>

--

Dr. Patti J. Kurtz

Assistant Professor, English

Director of the Writing Center

Minot State University

Minot, ND 58707



Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that.



Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims
that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program?



Foster: But we are RIGHT!



Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough.


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Feb  9 18:51:18 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:51:18 -0500
Subject: Nathan Bierma on Northern Cities Shift
In-Reply-To: <BE2FB6B6.7322%gordonmj@missouri.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.135118.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Matthew Gordon wrote:
> you don't have to subscribe; it's just that not all of the url was html
>
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi-0502090260feb09,1,7163783.story
>
> On 2/9/05 12:30 PM, "Beverly Flanigan" <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
>
>
>>I can't read the Bierma piece without subscribing.  Arnold, can you forward
>>the article?
>>
>>At 12:48 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
>>
>>>.... with an appearance by Our DInIs:
>>>
>>>http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/chi
>>>-0502090260feb09,1,7163783.story

 From the full URL, I was taken to a registration page.

AF


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Wed Feb  9 19:00:08 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:00:08 -0500
Subject: Nathan Bierma on Northern Cities Shift
In-Reply-To: <4e7c10f58326c260be0ec00090c3b716@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.140008.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FYI, Nathan sends out the full text of his weekly columns via an email
list:

http://www.nbierma.com/language/column/email/

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Wed Feb  9 19:53:02 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:53:02 -0500
Subject: 419
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.145302.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Those charming missives from various highly-placed persons in Nigeria, claiming to have vast riches available in exchange for our assistance, are sometimes called 419 scams or advance fee frauds.  The origin of the "419" is said to be from the relevant section of the Nigerian Criminal Code.  It turns out that this is correct, although section 419 is the general criminal fraud statute and not specifically directed at 419 scams; the Code is at http://www.nigeria-law.org/Criminal%20Code%20Act-Part%20VI%20%20to%20the%20end.htm.  The term dates back at least to this 2/21/1992 Agence France-Presse article:


<<Former minister implicated in "419" fraud investigation

LAGOS, Feb 21 (AFP) - A former minister is among some 1,000 Nigerians suspected of involvement in a huge advance fee fraud wave that has taken milions of dollars out of the country, press reports said Friday.

The same report, citing "well informed sources in the presidency," appeared in all Nigerian papers implicating the former minister as well as a former senator and a well-known singer, though none of the three were named.

Victims of the "419" fraud have been persuaded, through the use of false or forged documents, to part with their money or property in anticipation of receiving substantial financial returns.

The nickname comes from section 419 of the Nigerian criminal code which covers such fraudulent acts, providing for up to seven years' jail for offenders.

A special presidential task force on trade malpractices has been set up to carry on the investigations along with the Federal Intelligence and Investigations Bureau (FIIB).

They are looking into about 1,052 complaints over the activities of "419" fraudsters referred to the bureau by British detectives, FIIB spokesman Archibong Nkana said earlier this week.

A total 811 of the complaints were against Nigerians based in Lagos, he told a news conference Monday.

Each of the complaints concerns a fictitious offer of large sums of money, averaging 30 million dollars per case, to be transferred out of Nigeria to foreign account holders, police have said.

The former minister cited in Friday's press reports reportedly took 700,000 naira against a false promise to deliver a cargo of crude oil, the presidential sources said in the reports.

They did not specify the date, but said the deal occurred when the naira was higher -- at 1.5 dollars -- making the minister's deposit worth slightly more than one million dollars.

Nigerian officials said the "419" fraud wave started in 1989 and is jeopardizing the country's economic recovery program.

The FIIB spokesman meanwhile said 11 suspects had been arrested in connection with defrauding several people, including an American, a Swede and an Egyptian.

The Nigerian foreign ministry this month also sent a list of 550 Nigerian companies to diplomatic missions here that have been implicated in "419" investigations.>>


        A Business America article on 1/13/1992 described these scams in some detail.  It did not call them 419 scams, but it did note that the Nigerian government had formed a task force, "commonly known as the "419 Committee" after the relevant anti-fraud statute of the Nigerian Criminal Code," that was charged with investigating fraudulent activities and prosecuting alleged perpetrators.


John Baker


From Vocabula at AOL.COM  Wed Feb  9 20:44:05 2005
From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:44:05 EST
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.154405.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

http://www.vocabula.com/2004/VRJan04FiskeFREE.asp



Robert Hartwell Fiske
Editor and Publisher
The Vocabula Review
http://www.vocabula.com/
 
The Vocabula Review
10 Grant Place
Lexington, MA 02420
_________________________
 
Two Vocabula Books: 
 
The Dictionary of Disagreeable English
http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksDisagree.asp 
 
"However curmudgeonly, Mr. Fiske betrays a bluff humanitarian spirit. ... His 
own flogging of Merriam-Webster's is one of the many pleasures of this 
lovely, sour, virtuous book." ? Wall Street Journal  
 
Vocabula Bound: Outbursts, Insights, Explanations, and Oddities
http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksBound.asp
 
Twenty-five of the best essays and twenty-six of the best poems published in 
The Vocabula Review over the last few years


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb  9 21:33:35 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:33:35 -0600
Subject: neck-tie social (new sense?)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.153335.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 necktie sociable

"Horse Thieves!" _Colorado Miner_ [Georgetown, CO] 16 Aug 1879, p. 3.
"A necktie sociable, where the tie is made of round hempen cord, would
be well attended in this vicinity at the present time."


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb  9 22:30:39 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:30:39 -0600
Subject: A 19th Century F-Word Use
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.163039.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If you have access to the HeritageQuest.com genealogy site, you can't
search for the page, but you can browse to it.
Go to 1850 census records, then Georgia, then Dade county.  There are 63
images available, go to #61.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 8:22 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: A 19th Century F-Word Use
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: A 19th Century F-Word Use
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> Now if they'd found it used as an "adjective of extreme
> contumely" in 1850 - THAT would've been something!
>
> JL
>
> "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Baker, John"
> Subject: A 19th Century F-Word Use
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> Gene Weingarten's column, in the Washington Post for 2/6/2005
> and syndicated in other newspapers,
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A55085-2005Feb1.
> html, reproduces an interesting use of "fucking" from the
> National Archives:
>
> <>
>
> Weingarten indicated in an online chat today that the
> archivists were astonished to find the term. Presumably they
> brought it to his attention for use in his humor column.
>
> John Baker
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  All your favorites on one personal page - Try My Yahoo!
>


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb  9 22:36:15 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:36:15 -0600
Subject: Dictionaries Online?
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.163615.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Likewise anyone with an Alabama library card, through the Alabama
Virtual Library.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Dave Wilton
> Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 10:48 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Dictionaries Online?
>

>
> > Check your local library's website.  The Columbus (OH)
> public library
> > offers access to OED online if you have a library card.
>


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb  9 22:41:28 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 16:41:28 -0600
Subject: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.164128.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Does the line in "Mustang Sally" "ride Sally ride" call back to "rise
Sally rise"??

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:26 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:59 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> >
> > Little Sally Saucer
> > Sitting in the water
> > Rise, Sally, rise
> > Wipe off your eyes Sally.
> >
>
> An alternative version from East Texas (I learned it there,
> but, given that variations of this variation appear in black
> pop music, e.g. the couplet, "Put your hands on your hips /
> And let your backbone slip"
> occurs in the 1959 song, "The Booty Green," I think that it
> is/was universal amongst the colored. Since I learned this
> from my mother, who's now 91, I'd guess that this version is
> probably at least a century old.)
>
> Little Sally Walker
> Sitting in a saucer
> Rise, Sally, Rise
> Wipe your weeping eyes
> Put your hands on your hips
> And let your backbone slip
> Shake it to the east
> Shake it to the west
> Shake it to the one
> You love the best
>
> -Wilson Gray
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 10 01:17:14 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 20:17:14 -0500
Subject: Ollie Ollie Oxen Free (1949); More rhymes; Blck, White,
 Red All Over
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.201714.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OLLIE OLLIE OXEN FREE

DARE has 1950 for "Olson free." I was looking at "Olley, Olley Oxen Free: America's Contribution to Hide & Seek" by Florence Healy French, NEW YORK FOLKLORE, col. 1, nos. 3-4, Winter 1975, pages 161-168.

Maybe Stan Laurel said this to Oliver Hardy?


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Other 40 -- No Title
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Oct 1, 1949. p. B3 (1 page):
Rubio finally hauled down old Ollie-Ollie Oxenfree on the USF 30 yards later.

--------------------------------------------------------------
ICE CREAM SODA, DELAWARE PUNCH,...

A popular one.


(JSTOR)
Cultural Confusion on the Playground
John O. West
The Journal of American Folklore > Vol. 84, No. 333 (Jul., 1971), pp. 342-343
Pg. 342:
In this context, if one listens even with half an ear, he can hear the most marvelous fusions and confusions, linguistically speaking. None of these are as intriguing, in my experience, as what happens to standard jump-rope rhymes. One, the familiar "Ice cream soda, Delaware Punch,/Spell the initials of your honey bunch..."(1) comes out thus in Southest El Paso:

Ice cream soda, lemon lemon pop,
Tell me the licious of your sweet hot. (sic)
(The alphabet proceeds ot the initial of the Jumper's current flame, Henry.)

1. Roger Abrahams, _Jump Rope Rhymes_ (Austin, Texas, 1969), 73-76. This is one of the most widely reported rhymes today.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Other 90 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 18, 1958. p. L6 (1 page):
Remember _"Cinderella, dressed in yell,/ Went downstairs to meet her fella. / How many kisses did he give her? / 1...2...3..."_ and so until the jumper misses?

Lots of jump-rope songs, like Cinderlle, have to do with romance. There is _"Ice cream soda, / Delaware punch, / Tell me the name / Of my honeybunch. / A...B...C..." Of course, you miss on the initial of your beloved.

Another in the lovelorn vein is _"I love coffee, / I love tea, / I love the boys, / And the boys love me."_ Or _"Down in the valley where the green grass grows, / There sat Mary sweet as a rose. / She sang and she sang, and she sang so sweet, / Along came her boyfriend and kissed her on the cheek. / A...B...C..."_

Not all jump-rope songs anre sweetness and light, as witness _"Fudge, fudge, call the judge. / Mommy's got a brand new baby. / Wrap it up in tissue paper. / Drop it down the elevator. / First floor...second floor...third..."_ Presumably the dropped baby falls upward.

Adventure and domesticity intermingle. _"Where'd you get the cold, sir? / At the North Pole, sir. / What were you doing there, sir? / Catching polar bears, sir. / How many did you catch, sir? / 1...2...3..."_ In the next moment you hear _"Mabel, Mabel, set the table. / You got coffee--- / You got tea-- / You got salt-- / You got PEPPER!"_ Then come the hot pepper fast swings.

--------------------------------------------------------------
BLACK AND WHITE AND RED ALL OVER

I had posted from 1880, but this may be of interest if Fred's recording it...Still waiting for that darned Proquest digitization of the Boston Globe, Atlanta Constitution, and Chicago Tribune from this period (1880).


"The Newspaper Riddle Joke," WESTERN FOLKLORE, vol. 87 (1974), pages 253-257

Pg. 254:
As a conundrum, the Newspaper Riddle Joke should be found often in ninettenth-century newspapers and jestbooks, but there is little evidence of it. C. G. Loomis in his searches through those sources apparently noted no new example of it. Its omission is obviously not the result of its being an old chestnut well known to everyone, because many jokes of that nature _are_ included, but somehow it has been overlooked. The riddle does appear in Barbara Bee's _One Thousand Riddles_ (Hartford, Conn., 1882), where it is classified as an "enigma" rather than a conundrum, and in J. M. Robinson's _Book of Modern Conundrums_ (Baltimore, 1903). Earlier examples, and perhaps even the original authorship, of the conundrum may yet be discovered.


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Feb 10 03:20:01 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:20:01 -0500
Subject: necktie sociable (=dinner party, 1871)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.222001.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The ladies of the Cong. Church will hold a necktie Sociable and Supper at
the house of Geo. Fugard, on Tuesday evening, Feb. 21st, 1871, at 7 1/2
o'clock, p.m.  All interested are invided [sic] to attend.  _Prairie City
[Iowa] Index_, 2/17/1871, p 4


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Feb 10 03:32:07 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:32:07 -0500
Subject: neck-tie sociable (=dinner party, 1870)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.223207.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Neck-Tie Sociable.  This pleasant affair, which came off at the Brown
House on Monday evening last, was all that the most ardent friends of the
movement could have wished.  The large rooms were literally crowded to
overflowing with the "beauty and fashion" of our village, and the utmost
pleasantry and good feeling seemed to animate the entire company.  _Athens
[Ohio] Messenger_, 12/29/1870, p 3


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb 10 03:41:30 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 22:41:30 -0500
Subject: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA781@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.224130.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:41 PM -0600 2/9/05, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>Does the line in "Mustang Sally" "ride Sally ride" call back to "rise
>Sally rise"??

I thought it called forward to the astronaut.

L

>
>>  -----Original Message-----
>>  From: American Dialect Society
>>  [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray
>>  Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:26 AM
>>  To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>  Subject: Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
>>
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>  -----------------------
>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>  Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>>  Subject:      Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
>>  --------------------------------------------------------------
>>  -----------------
>>
>>  On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:59 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>>
>>  >
>>  > Little Sally Saucer
>>  > Sitting in the water
>>  > Rise, Sally, rise
>>  > Wipe off your eyes Sally.
>  > >
>>
>>  An alternative version from East Texas (I learned it there,
>>  but, given that variations of this variation appear in black
>>  pop music, e.g. the couplet, "Put your hands on your hips /
>>  And let your backbone slip"
>>  occurs in the 1959 song, "The Booty Green," I think that it
>>  is/was universal amongst the colored. Since I learned this
>>  from my mother, who's now 91, I'd guess that this version is
>>  probably at least a century old.)
>>
>>  Little Sally Walker
>>  Sitting in a saucer
>>  Rise, Sally, Rise
>>  Wipe your weeping eyes
>>  Put your hands on your hips
>>  And let your backbone slip
>>  Shake it to the east
>>  Shake it to the west
>>  Shake it to the one
>>  You love the best
>>
>>  -Wilson Gray
>>


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Feb 10 04:06:09 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:06:09 -0500
Subject: neck-tie party (=dinner party, 1870)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.230609.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Neck-Tie parties"  have dawned in the rural districts.  A neck-tie party
is one where each lady attending the party makes a neck-tie of the same
material as the dress she wears.  These are taken to where the party is to
be held and placed in a bag.  When the gentlemen arrive each one must go
to the bag and take out a neck-tie, and it is his duty to wait upon the
lady, during the evening, who wears the dress corresponding in material
with the neck-tie.  _Coshocton [Ohio] Democrat_, 12/20/1870, p 3

Mullins' suggestion that the hanging derived from the sociable (or the
like) needs further searching for both sense in early materials.  HDAS
shows _necktie_ in the sense of a hangman's noose (1866).


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Thu Feb 10 04:17:32 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:17:32 -0500
Subject: neck-tie party (=hanging, 1871)
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.231732.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Since a Kansas vigilance committee held a neck-tie party, eight horse
thieves are missing.
_Titusville [Penn.] Morning Herald_, 4/10/1871, p 4


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 10 04:28:34 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:28:34 -0500
Subject: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
In-Reply-To: <E1Cytqf-0004YU-00@mx07.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.232834.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think that I missed the possibility of what this could be WRT "The
Booty Green" because of the spelling, "booty." Some may recall that I
contend that the spelling should be "boody." So, yet another example of
what I consider to be wrong sort of went in one eye and out the other,
so to speak.

In any case, with a little research, I found three old R&B sounds with
the title, "B[insert your preferred spelling] Green." The version that
I remember from 1959 was by Robert "Bobby Marshan" Marchand," formerly
a vocalist with the band, Huey "Piano" Smith & The Clowns. Elder
statesmen on the list may recall "Sea Cruise" and "The Rockin'
Pneumonia and the Boogie-Woogie Flu," which are Huey Smith originals.
In any case, the Marshan version is basically the nursery rhyme set to
music with the refrain, "The booty green / the craziest dance / that
you ever seen" added.

There was another song from 1961 entitled "The Boo-Dee Green," by The
Olympics. (Remember "Good Lovin'" by the Young Rascals? It was
originally recorded by The Olympics.) This one has the refrain, "Let's
do the boo-dee green" and its words have no connection with the nursery
rhyme, but they are about dancing.

Finally, I found, from 1950, "Boodie Green" by Tiny Bradshaw, who also
originally recorded, "The Train Kept a-Rollin'". This version of "B.
Green" also has the refrain, "The boodie green / the craziest dance /
that you ever seen."

  O.K. We have at least three different spelling. The kind of word most
likely not to have a fixed spelling is one that is not normally
written. The usual reason for this is that the word is "dirty" or
"nasty." (Naturally, I have in mind the pre-rap/hip-hop era.) Even when
the word has a fixed spelling, that spelling tends to be distorted when
the word is written, as is the case with, e.g. P-Funk's "Tear The Roof
Off The Mothersucker" and "All Funked Up." Sometimes, the word isn't
used at all, again cf. P-Funk's "Up For The Down Stroke" or the Ohio
Players' "Fire": "I'm about to choke from the smoke. Got to tighten up
my stroke." And the imagery of the old dance, the "twist" goes all the
way back to the ancient jazz tune, "Windin' Boy." (Yes, I know that the
canonical spelliing of the first word is "Winin'.")

I have not the foggiest idea why "green" appears. I can't relate it to
anything except, possibly, the game "red light," which itself has
inspired some R&B tunes. But, in any case, I'm satisfied that all of
these songs are about sex. As the late Eddie Kendricks, formerly of the
Temptations, said of his first solo effort, disarmingly entitled
"Truckin'," "It's about fucking." And, of course, trucking is a form of
dancing. When I was a teenager back in St. Louis, we had a dance called
the "cheek-to-cheek bucket o' blood." Anyone not knowing the name of
this dance would simply have called it "dry-humping,"

On Feb 9, 2005, at 10:09 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson, does "The Booty Green" (1959) contain an ex. of "booty" = sex?
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:59 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>>
>> Little Sally Saucer
>> Sitting in the water
>> Rise, Sally, rise
>> Wipe off your eyes Sally.
>>
>
> An alternative version from East Texas (I learned it there, but, given
> that variations of this variation appear in black pop music, e.g. the
> couplet, "Put your hands on your hips / And let your backbone slip"
> occurs in the 1959 song, "The Booty Green," I think that it is/was
> universal amongst the colored. Since I learned this from my mother,
> who's now 91, I'd guess that this version is probably at least a
> century old.)
>
> Little Sally Walker
> Sitting in a saucer
> Rise, Sally, Rise
> Wipe your weeping eyes
> Put your hands on your hips
> And let your backbone slip
> Shake it to the east
> Shake it to the west
> Shake it to the one
> You love the best
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 10 04:32:36 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:32:36 -0500
Subject: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
In-Reply-To: <3rjp4a$7fd436@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.233236.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I certainly thought so at the time. It seemed too obvious not to be.
When you hear, "Ride, Sally, ride," you can't avoid remembering "Rise,
Sally, rise."

-Wilson

On Feb 9, 2005, at 5:41 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject:      Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Does the line in "Mustang Sally" "ride Sally ride" call back to "rise
> Sally rise"??
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society
>> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 8:26 AM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> -----------------
>>
>> On Feb 9, 2005, at 1:59 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Little Sally Saucer
>>> Sitting in the water
>>> Rise, Sally, rise
>>> Wipe off your eyes Sally.
>>>
>>
>> An alternative version from East Texas (I learned it there,
>> but, given that variations of this variation appear in black
>> pop music, e.g. the couplet, "Put your hands on your hips /
>> And let your backbone slip"
>> occurs in the 1959 song, "The Booty Green," I think that it
>> is/was universal amongst the colored. Since I learned this
>> from my mother, who's now 91, I'd guess that this version is
>> probably at least a century old.)
>>
>> Little Sally Walker
>> Sitting in a saucer
>> Rise, Sally, Rise
>> Wipe your weeping eyes
>> Put your hands on your hips
>> And let your backbone slip
>> Shake it to the east
>> Shake it to the west
>> Shake it to the one
>> You love the best
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>


From jdewan at COVAD.NET  Thu Feb 10 05:40:18 2005
From: jdewan at COVAD.NET (Jim DeWan)
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 23:40:18 -0600
Subject: spatchcock
Message-ID: <WED.9.FEB.2005.234018.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Gentlepeople,

Anyone know much about the word "spatchcock" beyond what it says in the
OED (Irish origin, late 18th century, from "dispatch cock")?

Currently, it's a culinary term and refers to a bird (chicken,
generally) that has had its backbone removed, then its keel (breast)
bone, which allows it to be opened flat, skin side up, after which it's
cooked. Some have suggested a relation between this and "spitchcock",
which the OED lists as a much older (by nearly two centuries) term
referring to cutting up an eel.

Others have suggested a link between the German "spaten" (spade), and
it being a reference to the spade-like shape of a birdy breastbone.

Thanks.

Jim DeWan
food writer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 10 05:54:32 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 00:54:32 -0500
Subject: Rise, Sally, Rise (1883); Old Mother Hawkins (1960)
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.005432.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RISE, SALLY, RISE

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
GAMES OF AMERICAN CHILDREN.; Some Curiosities of the Nursery and the Playground.
The Atlanta Constitution (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: May 20, 1883. p. 6 (1 page):
Onery, twoery, hickory Ann,
Fillison,follason, Nicholas John,
Queevy, quavy, Virgin Mary,
Singalum, sangalum, buck.
(...)
Eny, meny, mony, my,
Tusca, leina, bona, stry,
Kay bell, broken wed,
We, wo, weck.
(...)
Mr. William Wells Newell has done a good service to the cause of juvenile literature by writing a handsome book of nearly 250 pages about the "Games and Songs of American Children," which has just been published in New York. Underthe head of "Love Games" he gives ten specimens. Among the nine which he classifies as "Histories" is one called "Little Sallie Waters," in whose honor a dance has been named, which is now in vogue. The rhyme runs thus:

Little Sallie Waters,
Sitting in the sun.
Crying and weeping
For a young man.
Rise, Sally rise,
Dry your weeping eyes,
Fly to the east,
Fly to the west,
Fly to the one you love best.


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
CAROLS AND CHILD-LORE AT THE CAPITAL.
W H Babcock. Lippincott's Monthly Magazine (1886-1915). Philadelphia: Sep 1886. Vol. 38; p. 320 (23 pages)
(Page numbers difficult--ed.)
It is in use in Scotland for determining the positions to be occupied by boys playing games:

One to the east, one to the west,
One goes to the cuckoo's nest.
(...) (Same page--ed.)

Here is another ring-game which tallies so well with what we hear of the behavior of mermaidens that I am half inclined to believe it is not for nothing that the heroine is persistently named "Waters" and "sits in the sand." On the other hand, it must be admitted that the name is by no means new to ballad-literature dealing with dry-land topics,--witness "Childe Waters."

A girl is seated in the middle of the ring, pretending to weep. All the others sing,--

Little Sally waters sitting in the sand,
Weeping, crying, for a young man.
Rise, Sally, rise, wipe your eyes,
Point to the east, point to the west,
Point to the one that you love best.

Here we have the elfin-knight formula again. North and south are always omitted from the preliminary invocation, possibly because the former was once the road to Hel, or for some other reason connected with the old mythology.

Sally does as directed, timing each act to the appropriate word. The chosen one enters the magic circle, and kisses her, then becomes Sally Waters in her stead. These transformations are the less difficult since the masculine characters are generally girls in their own proper apparel.
(...)
Hot bread nad butter,
Please come to supper,
(...)
Mommy Daddy jumped the gutter,
Loaf of bread and pound of butter.
(...)
Star, star that shines so bright,
The first star I've seen to-night.
I hope I wish, I hope I may,
I hope my wish may come true
To-morrow night.
(...)
I climbed up the apple-tree,
And all the apples fell on me.
Make a pudding, bake a pie;
Did you ever tell a lie?
Yes, you did; you know you did,--
You stole your mother's teapot-lid.
(...)
Red-headed sinner,
Come down to your dinner.

Red-headed fox
Stole my mother's pigeon-box.

Reddy in the woods
Can't catch a butterfly.

April's gone, summer's come,
You're a fool and I'm none.

"Twenty-nine and one?"
   "Thirty!"
"Your face is dirty."


(MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL)
The Living age ... / Volume 182, Issue 2353: pp. 257-320
p. 287 1 match of 'rise, sally, rise'
  in: Title: The Living age ... / Volume 182, Issue 2353
Publisher: The Living age co. inc. etc. Publication Date: August 3, 1889

Ruth, who had before been staying with the Alwynns at the time of their schoolfeast, hardened her heart and began that immoral but popular game of "Sally Water."

Sally, Sally Water, come sprinle your pan;
Rise up a husband, a handsome youg man.
Rise, Sally, rise, and don't look sad,
You shall have a husband, good or bad.


(MAKING OF AMERICA--CORNELL)
Penhallow, by Edith Robinson: pp. 739-759
p. 758 1 match of 'rise, sally, rise'
  in: Title: The Century; a popular quarterly. / Volume 41, Issue 5
Publisher: The Century Company Publication Date: Mar 1891

"Rise, Sally, rise,
Wipe off your eyes!"

--------------------------------------------------------------
OLD MOTHER HAWKINS (1960)

I couldn't find "the hawk" (the wind) in DOWN BEAT. Oh sure, plenty of stuff about Coleman Hawkins and Erskine Hawkins. But where is it?

One would be tempted to say it's in a Zora Neale Hurston story (see the Black Drama database for "hawk"), but her stories have been well examined by scholars.

The following (Old Mother Hawkins=snowing) was interesting, but I can't find much about it.


MODERN PROVERBS AND PROVERBIAL SAYINGS
by Bartlett Jere Whiting
Harvard Univeristy Press
Cambridge, Mass.
1989

Pg. 427:
Old Mother Hawkins is plucking geese

1960 ILee _Edge_ (NY) 235: It's old Mother Hawkins a-plucking geese (_snowing_). Cf. _Oxford_ 887: Widecombe folks.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 10 06:58:28 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 01:58:28 -0500
Subject: Rise, Sally, Rise (1883)
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.015828.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A little more. You can listen to the songs on American Memory:


http://memory.loc.gov
Little Sally Walker
PERFORMER(S)
Fisher, Wilford Jerome
Farr, Ruthie May

Sally Walker
PERFORMER(S)
Stripling, Sydney


(GOOGLE)
MUSTANG SALLY: The man behind the song provides a ride down memory ...
... The chorus "Ride Sally ride" came courtesy of "rise Sally rise" from the Little
Sally Walker children's rhyme Rice liked while growing up in Clarksdale, Miss. ...
www.freep.com/news/metro/ dreamcruise/2002/sally16_20020816.htm - 16k - Cached - Similar pages


http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiSALWALKR.html
Gomme's lengthy analysis (pp. 167-179) takes the game
back to primitive (pre-Celtic) marriage ceremonies. The
marriage formula may belong rightly to this game, although
appearing in others.  The tune, she notes, is always the same
[or extremely similar at least] for the marriage formula,
"irrespective of that to which the previous verses are sung,
and this rule obtains in all those games in which this
formula appears--a further proof of the antiquity of the
formula as an outcome of the early marriage ceremony."
See FSJ pt. 28, 111-6.  Opies Singing Game (1985), 167 (no. 34),
"Sally Water", with foreign refs. (Canada, N.Z., etc.).  A
relative of some sort is "Little Alexander", q.v.



http://www.musicals101.com/lyharrigan.htm
2. "The Babies on Our Block"
Music by David Braham
Lyrics by Edward Harrigan

This song was introduced in The Mulligan Guard Ball (1879). It remained a sentimental favorite with fans for years to come. This is the lyric as it appears in the original sheet music, published by Wm. A. Pond & Co. (NY) in 1879. The entire song is in 4/4 time.

Verse 1
If you want for information
Or in need of merriment.
Come over with me socially
To Murphy's tenement.
He owns a row of houses
In the first ward near the dock,
Where Ireland's represented
By the babies on our block.
There's the Phalens and the Whalens
>From the sweet Dunochadee,
They are sitting on the railings
With their children on their knee.
All gossiping and talking
With their neighbors in a flock
Singing "Little Sally Waters"
With the babies on our block.
'Oh little Sally Waters
Sitting in the sun
A-crying and weeping for a young man;
Oh rise, Sally, rise,
Wipe your eye out with your frock":
That's sung by the babies
A-living on our block.


From douglas at NB.NET  Thu Feb 10 07:08:51 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 02:08:51 -0500
Subject: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
In-Reply-To: <8dd830869065a729cc552749ee49d880@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.020851.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray:

>.... I contend that the spelling should be "boody."

I have the same impression. From my posting here on 27 Sep. 2000:

<<in my boyhood 'boody'/'booty' was an exact equivalent of 'ass': .... I
always assumed this was a corruption of 'body'.>>

Please note that despite the similarity of names we are two distinct and
independent informants.

-- Doug Wilson


From slangman at PACBELL.NET  Thu Feb 10 14:06:46 2005
From: slangman at PACBELL.NET (Tom Dalzell)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 06:06:46 -0800
Subject: ? for Tom Dalzell
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.060646.0800.>

I do not have easy access to my Slang of Sin files for the next few
days, but I suspect that whatever the "correct" form of the phrase was,
it was from a one-of list of neologisms that were never in common use.

Tom Dalzell

neil wrote:

>In 'The Slang of Sin' did you really mean 'stroke' the furnace (as printed)
>for female masturbation - or is it a misprint for 'stoke'?
>
>-Neil Crawford
>
>
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 10 15:05:34 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:05:34 -0500
Subject: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
In-Reply-To: <E1Cz8RH-0005T7-00@mx06.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.100534.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 10, 2005, at 2:08 AM, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
> Subject:      Re: Children's rhymes (1969); Old Maid Lemonade (1878)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson Gray:
>
>> .... I contend that the spelling should be "boody."
>
> I have the same impression. From my posting here on 27 Sep. 2000:
>
> <<in my boyhood 'boody'/'booty' was an exact equivalent of 'ass': ....
> I
> always assumed this was a corruption of 'body'.>>
>
> Please note that despite the similarity of names we are two distinct
> and
> independent informants.
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>

We also agree as to the origin of the word. There was a movie back in
the '40's - I didn't see it myself; so I have no idea whether this
movie was anything like either of the two more recent movies of that
title - called "The Body Snatchers." This led to the invention of a
game called "boody snatcher," which was very similar to the literal
meaning of the modern game of grab-ass.

-Wilson Gray


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Feb 10 16:01:16 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:01:16 -0500
Subject: A 19th Century F-Word Use
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA77F@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.110116.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 04:30:39PM -0600, Mullins, Bill wrote:
> If you have access to the HeritageQuest.com genealogy site, you can't
> search for the page, but you can browse to it.
> Go to 1850 census records, then Georgia, then Dade county.  There are 63
> images available, go to #61.

It's actually image #60.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 10 17:40:33 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:40:33 -0500
Subject: Honeydripper (1946); Jonathan Green's "The Hawk" (1930s)
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.124033.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

HONEYDRIPPER--
HDAS? A cartoon in DOWN BEAT, 14 January 1946, pg. 10, col. 3, has someone shouting "Honeydripper!" to an orchestra.

JONATHAN GREEN'S "THE HAWK"--The Cassell Dictionary of Slang has "1930s+" for "hawk" and "Hawkins." This would rule out Coleman Hawkins and Erskine Hawkins, as I've said. Cites?


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 10 19:34:08 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:34:08 -0500
Subject: Honeydripper (1946); Jonathan Green's "The Hawk" (1930s)
In-Reply-To: <E1CzIJU-0000Ge-00@mx10.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.143408.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"The Honeydripper" was the name of a tune written by Joe Liggins and
recorded by him with his band on the long-since defunct Exclusive
Records, the first black-owned label, in 1945. After the record
reputedly (back in the day, Downbeat pretty much didn't track black
music unless it crossed over) sold 2 million copies, Liggins made the
song his theme song and changed the name of the band to "Joe Liggins
and The Honeydrippers.

Liggins himself was a pianist, but the tune featured the blowing of two
saxophonists, Willie Jackson on the soprano and the baritone gator
tails and James Jackson, Jr. (no relation) on the tenor gator tail.
(These Jacksons should not be confused with Willis "Gator Tail"
Jackson, who also played the tenor gator tail and was married to Ruth
Brown.) These two were _The_ Honeydrippers.

Very likely, the Downbeat cartoon refers to this tune.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 10, 2005, at 12:40 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Honeydripper (1946); Jonathan Green's "The Hawk" (1930s)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> HONEYDRIPPER--
> HDAS? A cartoon in DOWN BEAT, 14 January 1946, pg. 10, col. 3, has
> someone shouting "Honeydripper!" to an orchestra.



>
> JONATHAN GREEN'S "THE HAWK"--The Cassell Dictionary of Slang has
> "1930s+" for "hawk" and "Hawkins." This would rule out Coleman Hawkins
> and Erskine Hawkins, as I've said. Cites?
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Feb 10 21:33:31 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 16:33:31 -0500
Subject: Honeydripper (1946); Jonathan Green's "The Hawk" (1930s)
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.163331.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The nickname of Roosevelt Sykes (b. 1906) was the Honeydripper.  The
entries in the New Grove Dict. of Amer. Music and the The encyclopedia
of popular music, compiled & edited by Colin Larkin, 3rd ed, 1998 don't
indicate when he took the name, but there's a pretty good chance that
it would be before the mid-40s.

My impression is that the nickname "The Hawk" was exclusive to Coleman
Hawkins.  I don't associate any nickname with Erskine -- his press
agent called him something like the 20th C. Gabriel.  Coleman Hawkins
was a pretty big star by the end of the 1920s and jazz hounds would
have known who "The Hawk" was by then.  His connection with the winter
wind in Chicago isn't clear to me.  I have a very vague recollection of
a 1940s? recording of a poem by Langston Hughes? to the accompaniment
of some noted jazz musicians which alludes to "the hawk" (as in wind).

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Date: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:40 pm
Subject: Honeydripper (1946); Jonathan Green's "The Hawk" (1930s)

> HONEYDRIPPER--
> HDAS? A cartoon in DOWN BEAT, 14 January 1946, pg. 10, col. 3, has
> someone shouting "Honeydripper!" to an orchestra.
>
> JONATHAN GREEN'S "THE HAWK"--The Cassell Dictionary of Slang has
> "1930s+" for "hawk" and "Hawkins." This would rule out Coleman
> Hawkins and Erskine Hawkins, as I've said. Cites?
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Feb 10 22:10:36 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:10:36 -0500
Subject: cross-word puzzles
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.171036.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In his message of 29 Jan 2005 Barry gave references from a Proquest
Hist Newspapers search for "crossword" and "puzzle", the earliest
result coming from the Washington Post of April 27, 1884.

That reference is to a column called "Our Puzzle Department", giving
answers to puzzles from previous Sundays, and new puzzles.  Somehow the
Proquest search missed the column from 2 weeks before giving the
original.

[puzzle #] 637 -- Cross Word Enigma.
  In goat, not in sheep;
  In much, not in heap;
  In great, not in less;
  In Dish, not in bowl;
  In ask, not in beg;
  In after, not in now;
  In uncle, not in neice;
  In ill, not in well.
The whole is a cape projecting into the Indian ocean.  FAN and HAT.
[this is the signature of the puzzler.]

There are also mathematical puzzles, riddles, rebuses.

# 633 -- Reversals:
  1.  Reverse an aquatic palnt and give an animal.
  2.  Reverse a working implement and give plunder.
  3.  Reverse a number and give a snare.    [signed] W. S.

# 638 -- Enigma.
  the whole 12 letters will name a novel by William Black;
  The 10, 9, 5, 1 is a kind of earth.
  The 6, 2,3 is to fill.
  The 4, 7, 8, 11, 12 is an animal.  [signed] Delmonte.

All from Washington Post, April 13, 1884, p. 3, col. 7.

No cheating.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Feb 10 22:58:37 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:58:37 -0500
Subject: cross-word puzzles
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.175837.0500.>

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:10:36 -0500, George Thompson
<george.thompson at NYU.EDU> wrote:

>In his message of 29 Jan 2005 Barry gave references from a Proquest
>Hist Newspapers search for "crossword" and "puzzle", the earliest
>result coming from the Washington Post of April 27, 1884.
>
>That reference is to a column called "Our Puzzle Department", giving
>answers to puzzles from previous Sundays, and new puzzles.  Somehow the
>Proquest search missed the column from 2 weeks before giving the
>original.

You're missing a line...

>[puzzle #] 637 -- Cross Word Enigma.
>  In goat, not in sheep;
>  In much, not in heap;
>  In great, not in less;

   In hear, not in listen;

>  In Dish, not in bowl;
>  In ask, not in beg;
>  In after, not in now;
>  In uncle, not in neice;
>  In ill, not in well.
>The whole is a cape projecting into the Indian ocean.  FAN and HAT.
>[this is the signature of the puzzler.]

(Still extremely difficult, unless you're familiar with the geography of
eastern Africa.)

The Post was publishing these "crossword enigmas" in its Puzzle Department
at least a year before that:

-----
Washington Post, Apr 22, 1883, p. 2

147 -- Crossword enigma.
My first is in fashion, not in mode; my second is in lane and not in road;
my third in peach and not in fruit; my fourth in bottle and not in cruet;
my fifth in seat and not in trim; my sixth in terror and not in grin; my
seventh in honey and not in sweet; my eighth in leave, also in retreat. My
whole is a magic potion.
-----

(This one might be *a little* easier.)


--Ben Zimmer


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 10 23:07:39 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:07:39 -0500
Subject: Honeydripper (1946); Jonathan Green's "The Hawk" (1930s)
In-Reply-To: <E1CzLwU-0007Ll-00@mx06.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.180739.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 10, 2005, at 4:33 PM, George Thompson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Honeydripper (1946); Jonathan Green's "The Hawk"
> (1930s)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The nickname of Roosevelt Sykes (b. 1906) was the Honeydripper.  The
> entries in the New Grove Dict. of Amer. Music and the The encyclopedia
> of popular music, compiled & edited by Colin Larkin, 3rd ed, 1998 don't
> indicate when he took the name, but there's a pretty good chance that
> it would be before the mid-40s.

FWIW, Roosevelt Sykes fronted a group called "The Honeydrippers" in
1943, so it can be inferred that Sykes was using the name before that
date. Nevertheless, his 1945 recording of "The Honeydripper," was only
a cover of the original recording with that title by Joe Liggins. That
is, it was Joe Liggins who made the term, "Honeydripper," famous,
regardless of Sykes's earlier use of the term. The situation mirrors a
more recent incident. Hank Ballard wrote the song, "The Twist," and
originally recorded it with his group, The Midnighters. But it was
Chubby Checker's cover that made the twist an international phenomenon.

-Wilson Gray

>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Date: Thursday, February 10, 2005 12:40 pm
> Subject: Honeydripper (1946); Jonathan Green's "The Hawk" (1930s)
>
>> HONEYDRIPPER--
>> HDAS? A cartoon in DOWN BEAT, 14 January 1946, pg. 10, col. 3, has
>> someone shouting "Honeydripper!" to an orchestra.
>>
>> JONATHAN GREEN'S "THE HAWK"--The Cassell Dictionary of Slang has
>> "1930s+" for "hawk" and "Hawkins." This would rule out Coleman
>> Hawkins and Erskine Hawkins, as I've said. Cites?
>>
>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Feb 10 23:23:56 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:23:56 -0500
Subject: cross-word puzzles
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.182356.0500.>

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:58:37 -0500, I wrote:

>The Post was publishing these "crossword enigmas" in its Puzzle Department
>at least a year before that:
>
>-----
>Washington Post, Apr 22, 1883, p. 2
>
>147 -- Crossword enigma.
>My first is in fashion, not in mode; my second is in lane and not in road;
>my third in peach and not in fruit; my fourth in bottle and not in cruet;
>my fifth in seat and not in trim; my sixth in terror and not in grin; my
>seventh in honey and not in sweet; my eighth in leave, also in retreat. My
>whole is a magic potion.
>-----

Whoops, I included my own typo in this one.  It should read:

"...my fifth in neat and not in trim..."


--Ben Zimmer


From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM  Fri Feb 11 00:16:44 2005
From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:16:44 -0500
Subject: Spamming the ADS - L Mailing List
In-Reply-To: <200502090851624.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.191644.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Excuse me, but I don't follow this.

Does American Dialect Society sell their members email addresses?

Do they sell addresses to a company called LIFELINKNET.COM?

from:

http://www.americandialect.org/adsl.html

To Conceal Your Subscription Status From Others
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or
<mailto:jester at panix.com?subject=Question%20from%20an%20ADS-L%20Subscriber>Jesse
Sheidlower


please clarify & thanks,

Karen


At 11:40 AM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       David Blanco <sales at LIFELINKNET.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Mail list
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>We purchase list for a "one time mailing" and are allowed to maintain the
>name only if the customer responds to our solicitation.  You are not on any
>current list of ours.
>
>Sincerely,
>David Blanco
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Billy Thomas" <billyeo2003 at SBCGLOBAL.NET>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 2:58 PM
>Subject: Mail list
>
>
>Someone subscribed me to your list and about 300 others.Please take me off
>of your mail list.


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Feb 11 00:43:32 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:43:32 -0500
Subject: Spamming the ADS - L Mailing List
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.194332.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Someone, presumably as a malicious joke, signed Billy Thomas on to about 300 email lists.  Billy then started writing the email lists to ask for removal.

        David Blanco saw Billy's post to ADS-L, asking for removal, and thought it was a personal email to him.  He replied that his company purchases lists for one-time-use only and that Billy was not on any of their current lists.  In other words, David was confused.

        I don't speak for the Society, obviously, but there is no reason to believe that it sells members' email addresses, especially since anyone who wants to can use the Review command to get the email addresses.  The Review command predates the widespread use of spam.  Perhaps it's time for our listowners to change the list's properties and keep private the addresses of non-posting members.  I can't think of any good reason for that information to be freely available anyway.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Educational CyberPlayGround
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 7:17 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Spamming the ADS - L Mailing List


Excuse me, but I don't follow this.

Does American Dialect Society sell their members email addresses?

Do they sell addresses to a company called LIFELINKNET.COM?

from:

http://www.americandialect.org/adsl.html

To Conceal Your Subscription Status From Others
Please note that it is possible for other people to determine that you are
signed up to the list through the use of the "REVIEW" command, which
returns the e-mail address and name of all the subscribers. If you do not
want your name to be visible, just send a "SET ADS-L CONCEAL" command to
<mailto:listserv at listserv.uga.edu>listserv at listserv.uga.edu.

More Commands
More information on LISTSERV commands can be found in the LISTSERV
reference card, which you can retrieve by sending an "INFO REFCARD" command
to <mailto:listserv at listserv.uga.edu>listserv at listserv.uga.edu.

List Managers
If you have questions about ADS-L, send email to
<mailto:t.irons at morehead-st.edu?subject=Question%20from%20an%20ADS-L%20Subscriber>Terry
Irons

JavaScript must be enabled to display this email address.
or
<mailto:jester at panix.com?subject=Question%20from%20an%20ADS-L%20Subscriber>Jesse
Sheidlower


please clarify & thanks,

Karen


At 11:40 AM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       David Blanco <sales at LIFELINKNET.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Mail list
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>We purchase list for a "one time mailing" and are allowed to maintain the
>name only if the customer responds to our solicitation.  You are not on any
>current list of ours.
>
>Sincerely,
>David Blanco
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Billy Thomas" <billyeo2003 at SBCGLOBAL.NET>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 2:58 PM
>Subject: Mail list
>
>
>Someone subscribed me to your list and about 300 others.Please take me off
>of your mail list.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 11 01:45:56 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:45:56 -0500
Subject: "Winter's name is Hawkins" in Langston Hughes
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.204556.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jonathon Green, not Jonathan. Sorry about that. It was lunch hour. Thousands of parking tickets will do that to you.

This is from Literature Online. It's in the poem, line 422. Date?...I'll probably check out the Chicago (Daily) Defender at NYPL's Harlem library on Saturday.


Hughes, Langston, 1902-1967. [Author Page]
ASK YOUR MAMA 12 MOODS FOR JAZZ  95Kb , [from The Collected Poems of Langston Hughes: Arnold Rampersad, Editor: David Roessel, Associate Editor (1995), Alfred A. Knopf, Inc.] [Durable URL for this text]
Found 1 hit(s).
HORN OF PLENTY 10Kb 10Kb
...? WHERE WINTER'S NAME IS HAWKINS           ? ? ? ? AND NIAGARA...


HORN OF PLENTY
[End note: 1Kb]

[Page 498 ]


396      SINGERS                                                                                          TACIT
397      SINGERS LIKE O-
398      SINGERS LIKE ODETTA---AND THAT STATUE [End note: 1Kb]
399      ON BEDLOE'S ISLAND MANAGED BY SOL HUROK [End note: 1Kb]
400      DANCERS BOJANGLES LATE LAMENTED       $ $ $ $
401      KATHERINE DUNHAM AL AND LEON           $ $ $ $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
402      ARTHUR CARMEN ALVIN MARY          $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
403      JAZZERS DUKE AND DIZZY ERIC DOLPHY        $ $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
404      MILES AND ELLA AND MISS NINA          $ $ $ $ $ $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
405      STRAYHORN HIS BACKSTAGE WITH LUTHER     $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
406      DO YOU READ MUSIC? AND LOUIS SAYING          $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
407      NOT ENOUGH TO HURT MY PLAYING            $ $ $ $ $
408      GOSPEL SINGERS WHO PANT TO PACK          $ $ $ $
409      GOLDEN CROSSES TO A CADILLAC          $ $ $ $ $ $
410      BONDS AND STILL AND MARGARET STILL          $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
411      GLOBAL TROTTERS BASEBALL BATTERS         $ $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
412      JACKIE WILLIE CAMPANELLA           $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
413      FOOTBALL PLAYERS LEATHER PUNCHERS      $ $ $
414      UNFORGOTTEN JOES AND SUGAR RAYS        $ $ $ $ [End note: 1Kb]

[Page 499 ]

415      WHO BREAK AWAY LIKE COMETS            $ $ $ $ $ $
416      FROM LESSER STARS IN ORBIT               $ $ $ $ $ $ $
417      TO MOVE OUT TO ST. ALBANS             $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ [End note: 1Kb]
418      WHERE THE GRASS IS GREENER              $ $ $ $ $ $ $
419      SCHOOLS ARE BETTER FOR THEIR CHILDREN      $
420      AND OTHER KIDS LESS MEANER THAN         ? ? ? ?
421      IN THE QUARTER OF THE NEGROES            ? ? ? ? ?
422      WHERE WINTER'S NAME IS HAWKINS           ? ? ? ?
423      AND NIAGARA FALLS IS FROZEN            ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
424      IF SHOW FARE'S MORE THAN 30           ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?                      "Hesitation
425                                                                                                                        Blues" 8 bars.

426      I MOVED OUT TO LONG ISLAND                                                     TACIT
427      EVEN FARTHER THAN ST. ALBANS
428      (WHICH LATELY IS STONE NOWHERE)
429      I MOVED OUT EVEN FARTHER FURTHER FARTHER
430      ON THE SOUND WAY OFF THE TURNPIKE---
431      AND I'M THE ONLY COLORED.

432      GOT THERE! YES, I MADE IT!
433      NAME IN THE PAPERS EVERY DAY!
434      FAMOUS---THE HARD WAY---
435      FROM NOBODY AND NOTHING TO WHERE I AM.
436      THEY KNOW ME, TOO, DOWNTOWN,
437      ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY, EUROPE---
438      ME WHO USED TO BE NOBODY,
439      NOTHING BUT ANOTHER SHADOW
440      IN THE QUARTER OF THE NEGROES,
441      NOW A NAME! MY NAME---A NAME!

442      YET THEY ASKED ME OUT ON MY PATIO
443      WHERE DID I GET MY MONEY!

[Page 500 ]

444      I SAID, FROM YOUR MAMA!                                                  Figurine.
445      THEY WONDERED WAS I SENSITIVE
446      AND HAD A CHIP ON MY SHOULDER?
447      DID I KNOW CHARLIE MINGUS? [End note: 1Kb]
448      AND WHY DID RICHARD WRIGHT [End note: 1Kb]
449      LIVE ALL THAT WHILE IN PARIS
450      INSTEAD OF COMING HOME TO DECENT DIE
451      IN HARLEM OR THE SOUTH SIDE OF CHICAGO
452      OR THE WOMB OF MISSISSIPPI?
453      AND ONE SHOULD LOVE ONE'S COUNTRY
454      FOR ONE'S COUNTRY IS YOUR MAMA.

455      LIVING IN ST. ALBANS
456      SHADOW OF THE NEGROES
457      WESTPORT AND NEW CANAAN [End note: 1Kb]
458      IN THE SHADOW OF THE NEGROES---
459      HIGHLY INTEGRATED
460      MEANS TOO MANY NEGROES
461      EVEN FOR THE NEGROES---
462      ESPECIALLY FOR THE FIRST ONES
463      WHO MOVE IN UNOBTRUSIVE                                            Gently
464      BOOK-OF-THE-MONTH IN CASES                                        yearning
465      SEEKING SUBURB WITH NO JUKEBOX                              lieder
466      POOL HALL OR BAR ON CORNER                                       on
467      SEEKING LAWNS AND SHADE TREES                                piano
468      SEEKING PEACE AND QUIET                                                delicately
469      AUTUMN LEAVES IN AUTUMN                                            sedate,
470      HOLLAND BULBS IN SPRING                                                quietly
471      DECENT GARBAGE SERVICE                                                fading
472      BIRDS THAT REALLY SING                                                    on the
473      $40,000 HOUSES---                                                                    word

[Page 501 ]

474      PAYMENTS NOT BELATED---                                                belated....
475      THE ONLY NEGROES IN THE BLOCK                                  TACIT
476      INTEGRATED.

477      HORN OF PLENTY                                                                     Again
478      IN ESCROW TO JOE GLASSER. [End note: 1Kb]                     the old
479      THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT                                              "Hesitation
480      IN BILLINGTON'S CHURCH OF RUBBER. [End note: 1Kb]   Blues"
481      LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF                                      against the
482      IN GEORGE SOKOLSKY'S COLUMN. [End note: 1Kb]          trills
483      BIRDS THAT REALLY SING.                                                     of birds,
484      EVERY DAY'S TOMORROW                                                     but the
485      AND ELECTION TIME                                                                melody
486      IS ALWAYS FOUR YEARS                                                         ends in
487      FROM THE OTHER                                                                      a thin
488      AND MY LAWN MOWER                                                           high
489      NEW AND SHINY                                                                        flute call.
490      FROM THE BIG GLASS SHOPPING CENTER
491      CUTS MY HAIR ON CREDIT.

492      THEY RUNG MY BELL TO ASK ME                                          TACIT
493      COULD I RECOMMEND A MAID.
494      I SAID, YES, YOUR MAMA.                                                        Figurine.


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb 11 03:07:33 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:07:33 -0500
Subject: "Winter's name is Hawkins" in Langston Hughes
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.220733.0500.>

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:45:56 -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>This is from Literature Online. It's in the poem, line 422. Date?...I'll
>probably check out the Chicago (Daily) Defender at NYPL's Harlem library
>on Saturday.
>
>Hughes, Langston, 1902-1967. [Author Page]
>ASK YOUR MAMA 12 MOODS FOR JAZZ  95Kb , [from The Collected Poems of
>Langston Hughes: Arnold Rampersad, Editor: David Roessel, Associate
>Editor (1995), Alfred A. Knopf, Inc.] [Durable URL for this text]
>Found 1 hit(s).
>HORN OF PLENTY 10Kb 10Kb
>...? WHERE WINTER'S NAME IS HAWKINS           ? ? ? ? AND NIAGARA...

_Ask Your Mama_ was published in 1961, and I don't see anything to suggest
that "Horn of Plenty" was published separately at an earlier date.

Perhaps George Thompson was thinking of an earlier Hughes work?  HDAS
cites _Negro Folklore_ (1958) by Hughes and Arna Bontemps ("Hawkins: The
wind, wintertime, cold weather, ice, snow. In February, Hawkins talks.")

The earliest "Hawkins" cite in HDAS is from 1934, in the _Baltimore Sun_:
"Hawkins is outside (is coming)."  Perhaps this is what the Cassell
Dictionary of Slang is referring to.  Is this the only cite from the '30s
for "Hawkins" or "Hawk" found so far?


--Ben Zimmer


From iammaggytoo at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 11 03:35:22 2005
From: iammaggytoo at YAHOO.COM (margaret ellen smith)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 19:35:22 -0800
Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.193522.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

UNSUBSCRIBE-MARGARET SMITH


"May your heart always be joyful, and may your song always be sung.".... Bob Dylan

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Feb 11 04:25:26 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:25:26 -0500
Subject: Spamming the ADS - L Mailing List
In-Reply-To: <6683903125B46047BAADB349F03E74F208296B5B@PHEX01.stradley.com>
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.232526.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Feb 10, 2005 at 07:43:32PM -0500, Baker, John wrote:
>
>         David Blanco saw Billy's post to ADS-L, asking for
> removal, and thought it was a personal email to him.  He
> replied that his company purchases lists for one-time-use
> only and that Billy was not on any of their current lists.
> In other words, David was confused.

The fact that there is someone on ADS-L in the business of
mailing lists is odd, but there doesn't seem to have been
anything other than an accident involved, and no one is
spamming ADS-L.

>         I don't speak for the Society, obviously, but there
> is no reason to believe that it sells members' email
> addresses, especially since anyone who wants to can use the
> Review command to get the email addresses.  The Review
> command predates the widespread use of spam.  Perhaps it's
> time for our listowners to change the list's properties and
> keep private the addresses of non-posting members.  I can't
> think of any good reason for that information to be freely
> available anyway.

Anyone who wants to keep their address private can do so;
the instructions are on the ADS website. Most members I've
spoken with have appreciated the ability to find e-mail
addresses of fellow members, and as far as I know there has
never been a spam-related abuse of this ability.

Jesse Sheidlower
co-listowner, ADS-L


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb 11 04:48:17 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:48:17 -0500
Subject: cross-word puzzles
Message-ID: <THU.10.FEB.2005.234817.0500.>

>>-----
>>Washington Post, Apr 22, 1883, p. 2
>>
>>147 -- Crossword enigma.
>>My first is in fashion, not in mode; my second is in lane and not in road;
>>my third in peach and not in fruit; my fourth in bottle and not in cruet;
>>my fifth in seat and not in trim; my sixth in terror and not in grin; my
>>seventh in honey and not in sweet; my eighth in leave, also in retreat. My
>>whole is a magic potion.
>>-----
>
>Whoops, I included my own typo in this one.  It should read:
>
>"...my fifth in neat and not in trim..."

John Baker emails to point out another error (not mine this time).
There's a problem with the line "my fourth in bottle and not in cruet".
The fourth letter of the intended word is E, which *is* in "cruet". (The
solution, using rot-13 coding, is ARCRAGUR.)

I see that the Post also made an error in printing the solution to the
1884 puzzle posted by George Thompson.  The solution is (rot-13)
THNEQNSHV, but the Post says it's THNEQNSVA.  So apparently the Post
didn't bother with copy-editing the Puzzle Department.

(For decoding rot-13, see <http://tools.geht.net/rot13.html>.)


--Ben Zimmer


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 11 05:28:18 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:28:18 -0500
Subject: The Honey Dripper vs. The Honeydripper
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.002818.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Don't believe everything that you read. Many sources agree that
Roosevelt Sykes was the original person to call himself the "Honey
Dripper" and that his song, "The Honeydripper," was a "cover" of the
slightly-older and similarly-named "The Honeydripper."

Apparently, the word "cover" in the relevant sense has changed its
meaning when I wasn't looking. "Cover" used to mean that the recording
A by B has been re-recorded by C. In the present case, there is no
connection between the tune "The Honeydripper" by Joe Liggins and the
tune "The Honeydripper" by Roosevelt Sykes except for their similar
titles. Sykes's song in no other way resembles that of Joe Liggins.

So, I conclude that "cover" now merely means that two pieces of music
have similar titles and not that one piece of music is basically only a
re-arrangement of another piece of music. "The Twist" as recorded by
Chubby Checker is *clearly* a rip-off of the original version by Hank
Ballard and The Midnighters. By the old meaning of "cover," there is no
doubt that the second version is a cover of the first,

-Wilson Gray


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb 11 06:51:16 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 01:51:16 -0500
Subject: The Honey Dripper vs. The Honeydripper
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.015116.0500.>

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:28:18 -0500, Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:

>Don't believe everything that you read. Many sources agree that
>Roosevelt Sykes was the original person to call himself the "Honey
>Dripper" and that his song, "The Honeydripper," was a "cover" of the
>slightly-older and similarly-named "The Honeydripper."
>
>Apparently, the word "cover" in the relevant sense has changed its
>meaning when I wasn't looking. "Cover" used to mean that the recording
>A by B has been re-recorded by C. In the present case, there is no
>connection between the tune "The Honeydripper" by Joe Liggins and the
>tune "The Honeydripper" by Roosevelt Sykes except for their similar
>titles. Sykes's song in no other way resembles that of Joe Liggins.

Though it's true that many people seem to conflate the two songs,
Roosevelt Sykes didn't help matters much, as he *did* apparently cover the
later song after Liggins had a hit with it in 1945.  From a discussion of
the songs on the BLUES-L listserv:

-----
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/bit.listserv.blues-l/msg/0ebdc563d87ae819
The hit version was by Joe Liggins on Exclusive in 1945 and I'd guess
that this is the version (or a Specialty recut) in question.
Roosevelt Sykes (who recorded for Decca in the 1930s as The
Honeydripper) did record "The Honey Dripper" in 1936, but it wasn't
the same song.  Around 1945, he took Liggins' hit and added words and
made "The Honeydripper" for Bluebird - on it he referred that he was
"the original honeydripper".
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 11 08:25:45 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 03:25:45 EST
Subject: "Curiosity killed the cat" (1901)
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.032545.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OT: I asked the  University of Missouri's Western Historical  Manuscript
Collection what the Peter Tamony papers have on "Hawkins." The place  is
renovating, so today is the last day for requests...That thing about ProQuest  Phil
seeing his shadow and no ProQuest updates for another eight weeks. That was
supposed to be a joke.
...
...
"Care killed the cat" is earlier than "curiosity killed the cat." I see in
the Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs that "curiosity killed the cat" is traced to
Eugene O'Neill (1921). I'm away from the American Periodical Series  database.
...
When shopping for a new cat, always check to see if it's bi-curious.
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_AVALON  YOUNG WOMAN HANDCUFFED ALL DAY.; HAD COMMITTED NO CRIME, BUT
REMAINED IN IRONS.  Curiosity Got the Better of Her and She Tried to Learn the
Workings of an  Officer's "Bracelets"--Ludicrous Costumes at a Rag--time Masquerade.
RAG-TIME  MASQUERADE. SANTA CATALINA BREVITIES. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=326922192&SrchMode=1&sid=6&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309
&VName=HNP&TS=1108109443&clientId=65882)
Los Angeles Times  (1886. Aug 22, 1901. p. 15 (1 page)
...
"Curiosity killed the cat," it is said.
...
...
_"FIRE?"  NO, CURIOUS MAID.; Paragon of a Domestic Servant in Short Hills
Causes  Excitement._
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=101238051&SrchMode=1&sid=4&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108109038&clientId
=65882)
Special to The New York Times..  New York Times (1857-Current file). New
York, N.Y.: Jul  6, 1904. p. 9 (1 page)
...
But alas! she has one failing, that of curiosity, and her employers shudder
when they remember that it was curiosity that killed the cat.
...
...

(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
     _fitchburg_sentinel_ _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=++xTpPwvmwuKID/6NLMW2qhjhpBYR+UO1SO3xrkbInKytRd1zJjrqUIF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday,
September 03, 1908 _Fitchburg,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:fitchburg+killed+the+cat+AND)  _Massachusetts_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:massachusetts+killed+the+cat+AND)
...1 Whfiit .Srpl. Corn 79  Curiosity KILLED THE CAT. Dawaon's College
gets.....at THE funerar of Mat- THEw C. Tvas KILLED  THE qveHrurmng. of his engine at..
...
     _Washington Post _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=wSCs6S0EhDCKID/6NLMW2qoyCVVVAnntnGY4WeSjm2dZIVxqICXOJw==)  Sunday, July 21, 1912
_Washington,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:washington+killed+the+cat+AND)  _District Of Columbia_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:district_of_columbia+killed+the+cat+AND)
...that you have a very  curious and that KILLED THE CAT Aunt Anna I hope you
 and.....on my lap writing this letter Our CAT a bird oTHEr  THE naughty
thing I..
...
     _Newark Advocate _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=ssVO2f5ZuruKID/6NLMW2hkS50yEYlQ/yC2o1E0X2OgbJAMUBnbw8Q==)  Saturday, October 23,
1915 _Newark,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:newark+killed+the+cat+AND)  _Ohio_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+killed+the+cat+AND)      ...THEy say it  was curiosity that
KILLED THE CAT, but I would  like to know.....intimately and THE better THE man,
THE better qualified THE mayor,  THE..

...
     _Hopewell Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=lrCUoQlefzKKID/6NLMW2hOTmJ4yFvFotzRfNuz26G5mlpaJ8bcVoEIF+CsZYmrz)  Wednesday,
April 02, 1919 _Hopewell,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hopewell+killed+the+cat+AND)  _New Jersey_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_jersey+killed+the+cat+AND)      ...cverr
Wtintrtij n N. J  Curiosity KILLED THE CAT But Saved THE World  One.....to THE general
says Ohio State Jornal THE gi eater  THE effort to include  all..


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Fri Feb 11 14:26:13 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:26:13 -0500
Subject: Spamming the ADS - L Mailing List
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050210191107.01d7faf8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.092613.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 10, 2005, at 19:16, Educational CyberPlayGround wrote:
> Does American Dialect Society sell their members email addresses?

The American Dialect Society does not, has not, and will never sell or
rent the addresses of subscribers to the email list. There are myriad
other unavoidable ways for member addresses to be acquired, but that
will come as no secret to anyone.

Grant Barrett
American Dialect Society webmaster
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Fri Feb 11 15:01:04 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:01:04 -0500
Subject: query: Slang Words in Standard English
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.100104.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is from the LINGUIST List,
Please do not reply to me.
http://linguistlist.org/issues/16/16-392.html
         ------------------------------------------------

Date: 07-Feb-2005
From: Hilary Sachs <hilsachs at verizon.net>
Subject: Slang Words in Standard English


Does anyone know of any examples of slang, or otherwise colorful words that
supplanted older, standard words in English?

I'm thinking of the Romance phenomenon, where some Latin words were
replaced by Vulgar Latin slang words in the Romance languages, such as or,
oris 'mouth' (standard Latin), which fell out of use and was replaced by
bucca 'cheeks puffed out from eating'. (French bouche, Sp. boca, etc.)

I can't find any English examples. Any ideas?

Thanks,

Hilary Sachs


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 11 16:50:51 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 11:50:51 -0500
Subject: "chocked full" (for the eggcorn files)
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.115051.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a letter of recommendation, a well-known linguist whose anonymity
will be shielded here writes that a certain student maintains a web
site "chocked full" of linguistic curiosities.  Checking on google, I
find 39,400 hits for "chocked full", but it seems clear from the
sources I checked (or chocked) that this can only be a reanalysis of
"chock-full", which has been around since the 18th and possibly even
the 15th c.  The OED reviews at its entry the long and inconclusive
debate about the origin of "chock-full" and its variant "choke-full",
and notes that

Prob. there is a recent association with CHOCK n. and v., in some of
their senses, but the latter are too late to be the origin; it is
more likely that these senses have been developed under the influence
of chock-full

Both the semantics of the adjective (cf. "crammed", "stuffed",
"packed") and the phonetic complexity of a putative -[kdf]- sequence
support the plausibility of a participial origin of "chock-full", but
given that no such origin exists, the  "chocked(-)full" spelling can
be seen as involving another hypercorrective "re"storation.

Larry


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Fri Feb 11 17:23:09 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:23:09 -0500
Subject: "chocked full" (for the eggcorn files)
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.122309.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I always have said _chuck-full_ (which is OED 1770), much newer (more
appropriate for a kid like me).

Regards,
David
barnhart at highlands.com

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Friday, February 11,
2005 at 11:50 AM  wrote:


>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>Subject:      "chocked full" (for the eggcorn files)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>In a letter of recommendation, a well-known linguist whose anonymity
>will be shielded here writes that a certain student maintains a web
>site "chocked full" of linguistic curiosities.  Checking on google, I
>find 39,400 hits for "chocked full", but it seems clear from the
>sources I checked (or chocked) that this can only be a reanalysis of
>"chock-full", which has been around since the 18th and possibly even
>the 15th c.  The OED reviews at its entry the long and inconclusive
>debate about the origin of "chock-full" and its variant "choke-full",
>and notes that
>
>Prob. there is a recent association with CHOCK n. and v., in some of
>their senses, but the latter are too late to be the origin; it is
>more likely that these senses have been developed under the influence
>of chock-full
>
>Both the semantics of the adjective (cf. "crammed", "stuffed",
>"packed") and the phonetic complexity of a putative -[kdf]- sequence
>support the plausibility of a participial origin of "chock-full", but
>given that no such origin exists, the  "chocked(-)full" spelling can
>be seen as involving another hypercorrective "re"storation.
>
>Larry
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 11 19:10:51 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:10:51 -0500
Subject: "chocked full" (for the eggcorn files)
In-Reply-To: <p04320402be328ed516f0@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.141051.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:50 AM -0500 2/11/05, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>Both the semantics of the adjective (cf. "crammed", "stuffed",
>"packed") and the phonetic complexity of a putative -[kdf]- sequence

Of course I meant not -[kdf]- but -[k*t*f]-, as in "tactful"* or
"packed full", "stacked full".  It's not that this sequence is
impossible, but that it's relatively difficult, so it wouldn't be
surprising if a speaker assumed that a perceived "chock-full" was a
simplification of an underlying "chocked-full", as in "a sink
stack(ed) full of dishes".

>support the plausibility of a participial origin of "chock-full", but
>given that no such origin exists, the  "chocked(-)full" spelling can
>be seen as involving another hypercorrective "re"storation.
>
>Larry

*I wonder if there's any evidence that the -t- is more likely to be
retained in this one, where it's part of the adjective rather than a
separate, grammatically reconstructible morpheme as in the "Xed full"
cases.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Fri Feb 11 19:51:23 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:51:23 -0500
Subject: our plain-spoken ancestors
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.145123.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A Wreck. -- Stranded on the island known by the name of Ragged-Ass,
lying at the south of Manticus (Hancock county). . . .  N-Y Commercial
Advertiser, March 18, 1806, p. 3, col. 2, from Dadv

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Fri Feb 11 20:21:08 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 12:21:08 -0800
Subject: "chocked full" (for the eggcorn files)
In-Reply-To: <p04320402be328ed516f0@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.122108.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 11, 2005, at 8:50 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> In a letter of recommendation, a well-known linguist whose anonymity
> will be shielded here writes that a certain student maintains a web
> site "chocked full" of linguistic curiosities.  Checking on google, I
> find 39,400 hits for "chocked full", but it seems clear from the
> sources I checked (or chocked) that this can only be a reanalysis of
> "chock-full", which has been around since the 18th and possibly even
> the 15th c...

Language Log posting by Mark Liberman on some variants of "chock full",
8/18/04:
   http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001359.html

response by me, with "chocked full", 8/19/04:
   http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001363.html

(with reference back to an ADS posting of mine on 4/29/04)

arnold


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 11 21:00:32 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:00:32 -0500
Subject: "chocked full" (for the eggcorn files)
In-Reply-To: <5584e21d7295bbfd27c729c8e7ad333f@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.160032.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:21 PM -0800 2/11/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>On Feb 11, 2005, at 8:50 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>>In a letter of recommendation, a well-known linguist whose anonymity
>>will be shielded here writes that a certain student maintains a web
>>site "chocked full" of linguistic curiosities.  Checking on google, I
>>find 39,400 hits for "chocked full", but it seems clear from the
>>sources I checked (or chocked) that this can only be a reanalysis of
>>"chock-full", which has been around since the 18th and possibly even
>>the 15th c...
>
>Language Log posting by Mark Liberman on some variants of "chock full",
>8/18/04:
>   http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001359.html
>
>response by me, with "chocked full", 8/19/04:
>   http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001363.html
>
>(with reference back to an ADS posting of mine on 4/29/04)

Aha.  Should have known.  Well, now I can wonder about why the number
of google hits has more than doubled from 18.7K to 39.4K from your
search to mine.  Either the eggcorn hadn't completely hatched, or all
those new 21K instances just needed those 9 months of gestation.

larry


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 11 21:24:12 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:24:12 -0500
Subject: "chocked full" (for the eggcorn files)
In-Reply-To: <E1Czhtp-0002Ry-00@mx06.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.162412.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 11, 2005, at 4:00 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "chocked full" (for the eggcorn files)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 12:21 PM -0800 2/11/05, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:
>> On Feb 11, 2005, at 8:50 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>>
>>> In a letter of recommendation, a well-known linguist whose anonymity
>>> will be shielded here writes that a certain student maintains a web
>>> site "chocked full" of linguistic curiosities.  Checking on google, I
>>> find 39,400 hits for "chocked full", but it seems clear from the
>>> sources I checked (or chocked) that this can only be a reanalysis of
>>> "chock-full", which has been around since the 18th and possibly even
>>> the 15th c...
>>
>> Language Log posting by Mark Liberman on some variants of "chock
>> full",
>> 8/18/04:
>>   http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001359.html
>>
>> response by me, with "chocked full", 8/19/04:
>>   http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001363.html
>>
>> (with reference back to an ADS posting of mine on 4/29/04)
>
> Aha.  Should have known.  Well, now I can wonder about why the number
> of google hits has more than doubled from 18.7K to 39.4K from your
> search to mine.  Either the eggcorn hadn't completely hatched, or all
> those new 21K instances just needed those 9 months of gestation.
>
> larry
>

The answer is quite simple, Larry: using "chocked-full" is preferred to
"chock-full" because using "chock-full" would be too much like right.

I hope that my meaning is clear. Back at the '75 LSA in Frisco, a group
of three colleagues, at least one of whom is a member of this list,
approached me with a question. They asked, in effect, "Why don't you
talk black(er)?" Well, the obvious answer is that most fades have a
hard time understanding the language of shades. Having to draw a
semantic map of every turn of phrase is a stone bring-down.

-Wilson


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb 12 02:22:14 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:22:14 -0500
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicon XI; Mommywood
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.212214.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DAILY CANDY LEXICON XI

This one seems especially silly. Some of these terms have no Google hits. It's like that infamous 1990s made-up grunge slang list in the New York Times...Daily Candy once substituted for William Safire. Amazing...Here's how fake this thing is:

POX(ES) OF CHOCOLATE--0 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
VALENSPAMMER--0 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
SCAMENTINE--0 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
FEAR GOGGLING--0 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
CRYDAY THE THIRTEENTH--1 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
ENGAGE-MINT--5 Google hits (all bad), 0 Google Groups hits


http://www.dailycandy.com/article.jsp?ArticleId=22548&city=1

February 11, 2005

Lexicon XI

Is that the whisper of sweet nothings we hear echoing across the land?

Easy on the sonnets, Shakespeare. Here's the real Valentine's vocab.

bandwagoner
n. A once-single woman who traditionally swears off the holiday but is now happily coupled off and suddenly all about hearts, roses, and luuuv ...

candy-boxer
n. A cop-out gifter. ("Good old George. He's a total candy-boxer, but I still love him.")

cryday the 13th
n. The day before Valentine's Day if you don't have a boy/girlfriend.

engage-mint
n. A pre-necking breath freshener, often consumed post-BFD (Big Fat Diamond).

fear goggling
n. The act of rushing into a relationship in order to avoid spending Valentine's Day alone.

flighty Aphrodite
n. A favorite Valentine's date, she's undeniably attractive and intellectually challenged. See also foxymoron.

hetox
n. Taking a a break from romance and its attending insanities. A.k.a. turning off the valve. See also: shetox.

kama-suture
n. Aid for injuries sustained during aerobic bedroom exercises (particularly by non-aerobic types).

love at first fight
n. Syndrome experienced by those drawn to each other by arguments and make-up sex.

poxes of chocolate
n. Last-minute purchases of cheap, red-cellophane-wrapped, low-quality chocolates that make one immediately ill.

scamentine
n. Someone who always has a random hookup on Valentine's Day.

Valenspammer
n. Shallow sentimentalist who sends valentines to everyone she knows. ("Don't be flattered by Josie's card. She's a notorious Valenspammer.")

More fun with language? Oh, you literate fool. Lexicons X, IX, and VII should tide you over.


--------------------------------------------------------------
MOMMYWOOD

Julia Roberts is displaying her new babies in all the media. AOL featured it with a "Mommywood" headline yesterday.

Mommy would?


(GOOGLE) (39 hits)
Welcome to AOL.com
... Recipe for Heart Cookies. Is Hollywood Becoming Mommywood? Is Hollywood
Becoming Mommywood? AOL Celebrity. Roberts, Liv Tyler and ...
startpage.aol.com/ - 27k - Feb 10, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages

VH1 Pop Culture Dictionary - Mommywood (2003) - 0:15 (USA) ...
... Sorry but, you are not authorized to view story "VH1 Pop Culture Dictionary -
Mommywood (2003) - 0:15 (USA)". In order to view all ...
ad-rag.com/106550.php - Similar pages

Blogging | Blogging news news | Breaking blogging news | Blogging ...
... In addition to the mudflap girl image, there are several other fun prints
such as ?I (heart) my OB? and a ?Mommywood? sign. ...
www.hiblo.com/page290.htm - 17k - Cached - Similar pages


(GOOGLE GROUPS) (2 hits)
Murphy Brown Recants
... Witness the June issue of Los Angeles magazine, which proclaims: "Hooray for Mommywood;
a new breed of star moms makes childbirth downright glamorous." "A ...
soc.men - Dec 28 2001, 9:29 pm by JMel96 - 1 message - 1 author


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb 12 02:55:26 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:55:26 -0500
Subject: "Stuff you sorries in a sack" (Seinfeld, 20 Nov. 1997)
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.215526.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

STUFF SORRYS IN A SACK--280 Google hits, 13 Google Groups hits
STUFF SORRIES IN A SACK--279 Google hits, 47 Google Groups hits
STUFF SORRY'S IN A SACK--48 Google hits, 13 Google Groups hits


On today's Gothamist.com, it was asked whether baseball fans will tell Jason Giambi to "stuff his sorry's in a sack."

Fred Shapiro might want to include this with other Seinfeld speech. "Stuff your sorries in a sack" appears to have been coined with the November 20, 1997 episode.

Before Seinfeld, people used to pack up their troubles in an old kit bag and smile, smile, smile.



(GOOGLE GROUPS)
WW I Songs
... PACK UP YOUR TROUBLES Pack up your troubles in your old kit bag & smile, smile,
smile While you've a lucifer to light your fag, smile boys, that's the style ...
rec.music.folk - Nov 12 1995, 9:57 am by Tom Morgan - 13 messages - 12 authors


(GOOGLE GROUPS)
What was it that George Kept Saying??
"You can stuff your sorry's in a bag, mister!" actually, I believe it was "you can
stuff your sorries in a sack, mister!" Now wait a minute you two. ...
alt.tv.seinfeld - Nov 28 1997, 12:58 am by Slo - 12 messages - 11 authors

Jerry Moves In (20Nov97 ep)
... Thats a good question, and I always thought Jerry moved in before Kramer ever did.
Jason Jasdeen at aol.com "You can stuff your sorries in a sack!"
alt.tv.seinfeld - Nov 21 1997, 10:28 am by Jasdeen - 19 messages - 18 authors

11/20: Brilliant!
... There's more! Kramer and FDR yanking out eyelashes. (Franklin Delano Romankowski???)
Elaine: "He Schnapped me!" "Stuff your sorries in a sack, mister!" Notice ...
alt.tv.seinfeld - Nov 21 1997, 6:18 am by Dave - 23 messages - 17 authors

When a show sucks
Everyone has diffrent tastes in Seinfeld episodes. Jason Jasdeen at aol.com
"You can just stuff your sorries in a sack!"- - -George
alt.tv.seinfeld - Nov 21 1997, 12:21 am by Jasdeen - 6 messages - 6 authors


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Feb 12 04:02:45 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:02:45 -0500
Subject: Daily Candy Lexicon XI; Mommywood
Message-ID: <FRI.11.FEB.2005.230245.0500.>

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 21:22:14 -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

>DAILY CANDY LEXICON XI
>
>This one seems especially silly. Some of these terms have no Google hits.
>It's like that infamous 1990s made-up grunge slang list in the New York
>Times...
[snip]

Or perhaps the model is the much wittier "Frictionary" slang made up by
Heather Havrilesky (aka "Polly Esther") for the now-defunct Suck website.

   http://www.suck.com/daily/2000/01/26/
   26 Jan 2000  Frictionary!

   http://www.suck.com/daily/2000/06/28/
   28 Jun 2000  Time For More Frictionary!

I don't know if any of Havrilesky's slang caught on, but I did notice in
one of her recent TV columns for Salon that she revived the useful term
"fraudience" ("a group of spectators abnormally populated by rabid
enthusiasts and fans placed there by PR reps")...

   http://salon.com/ent/tv/review/2005/02/07/i_like/
   Later, Ashlee called in to "TRL" and prattled on about swollen vocal
   cords and severe acid reflux to a fraudience of screaming girls.


--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb 12 06:38:15 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 01:38:15 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.013815.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Hawkins," "made in de shade, sold in de sun," and others of interest here.


AMERICAN NEGRO FOLKLORE
by J. Mason Brewer
Chicago: Quadrangle Books
1968

Pg. 189 (Slave Seculars and Work Songs):
_I Went to Atlanta_

I Went to Atlanta
Never been dere a-fo'
White folks eat de apple
Nigger wait fo' co'

(Other verses are "White folks sleep on feather bed" and "White folks wear de fancy suit" and "White folks sit in Lawd's place"--ed.)

Pg. 304 (Cold Weather Signs): If turkeys roost high in a tree, it's a sign of cold weather. You will hear the old folks say, "Look out, children. Hawkins is coming."

Pg. 323 (Creole Proverbs):
Great to speak, little to do.
One goes everywhere with fine clothes.
Ox who comes first always drinks clear water.
Pg. 324:
That is not the baptism of a doll. (No laughing matter.)
When the tree falls the goat climbs it.
The best swimmer is often drowned.
When one is very hungry one does not peel the sweet potato.
His tongue knows no Sunday.
I keep nothing hidden in the sideboard. (I keep nothing back.)
Set your type before you go and then read it. (Have on your tongue what you are going to say.)

Pg. 338 ("Dirty Dozens" Rhymes):
Yo' mama's in de kitchen; yo' papa's in jail;
Yo' sister's round de corner, hollerin' "Hot stuff for sale."

Pg. 339 (Street Cries):
I sell to the rich,
I sell to the po';
I'm gonna sell the lady
Standin' in that do'.

I got water with the melon, red to the rind!
If you don't believe it just pull down your blind.
You eat the watermelon and preee-serve the rind!

Pg. 340:
We sell it to the rich, we sell it to the poor,
We give it to the sweet brownskin, peepin' out the door.
_Tout chaud, Madame, tout chaud!_
Git 'em while they're hot. Hot _calas_!

The Waffle Man is a fine old man.
He washes his face in a frying-pan.
He makes his waffles with his hand.
Everybody loved the waffle man.

Char-coal! Char-coal!
My horse is white, my face is black.
I sell my charcoal, two-bits a sack--
Char-coal! Char-coal!

Pg. 342:
Porgy walk; Porgy talk,
Porgy eat wid a knife an' fork;
Porgy-e-e-e-!

Vanilla, chocolate, peach cream
Dat surely freezed by de stream.
It was made in de shade, an' is sold in de sun.
If you ain't got a nickel, you can't get none.

Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
The same old rag man comin' this a-way.

Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.
Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
Raw, raw, raw.

Pg. 343 (Jeering and Taunting Rhymes):
A bushel o' wheat, a bushel o' san',
Ah'd rather be a nigger than a po' white man.

You bowlegged, lazy,
An' almo' half crazy.

Pg. 367 (Autograph Album Rhymes):
You can kiss beneath a grapevine, you can kiss beneath the rose,
But the best place I know of is to kiss beneath the nose.

Pg. 368:
Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
If you don't love nobody, keep it to yourself.

Up the hickory, an' down the pine;
Good-looking boys is hard to find.

Sugar is sweet, an' coffee is strong;
Write me a letter, and don't be long.

It takes a rocking chair to rock,
A rubber ball to roll,
A tall, skinny papa
To satisfy my soul.

Orange is a city, Lemon is a state;
I wrote you a letter, but I forgot de date.

Pg. 369:
My papa is a butcher,
My mama cuts de meat.
Ah'm de little weiner-wish
Dat runs around destreet.

If the ocean was milk, and the bottom was cream,
I'd dive for you like a submarine.

Cream cheese, cream cheese floatin' in the air,
That bald-headed man ain't got no hair.

Pg. 373 (Ring-Game Songs):
Ooka dooka soda cracker,
Does your father chew tobacco?
Yes, my father chews tobacco.
Ooka dooka soda cracker.


Copy cat, copy cat, sittin' on duh fence,
Trying' tuh make a dollar out o' fifteen cents.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Trenton Times  Monday, October 17, 1904 Trenton, New Jersey
...of whioti starts off with "ANY RAGS, ANY BONES, ANY bottles today." Of course.....Fred Barlow, asked, "Have you ANY rags today''" H happened that Just..


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb 12 07:47:47 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 02:47:47 -0500
Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.024747.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Even "I must develop my bust" is here!...ProQuest is down right now, so I'll search these with Newspaperarchive.


FROM MY PEOPLE:
400 YEARS OF AFICAN AMERICAN FOLKLORE
edited by Caryl Cumber Dance
New York: W. W. Norton
2002

Pg. 470 (Aphorisms and Other Proverbial Sayings):
God don't like ugly.
Hard head, soft behind.

Pg. 471:
You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.--Medgar Evans.

Pg. 480:
_I'll Eat Hen I'm Hungry_
>From Thomas W. Talley, _Negro Folk Rhymes_

I'll eat when I'se hungry,
An' I'll rink when I'se dry;
An' if de whitefolks don't kill me,
I'll live till I die.

In my liddle log cabin,
Ever since I've been born;
Dere hain't been no nothin'
'Cept dat hard salt parch corn.
Pg. 481:
But I knows what's a henhouse,
An' de tucky he charve;
An' if old Mosser don't kill me,
I cain't never starve.

_Aught's a Aughts_
Traditional

An aught's a aught and a figger's a figger;
All for the white folks and none for the nigger.

Pg. 509:
_Hambone, Hambone_
This traditional clapping game may be played with a partner or one indiv,; slap his thigh as he recites. Additional lines may be improvised.

Hambone, Hambone, where you been?
Round the world and back again.

Hambone, Hambone, what'd you do?
I got a train and I fairly flew.

Hambone, Hambone, where'd you stay?
I met a pretty girl and I couldn't get away.

Hambone, Hambone, where'd you go?
I hopped up to Miss Lucy's door.

Hambone, Hambone, what's you see?
I asked Miss Lucy to marry me.

Pg. 511:
_We Must, We Must, We Must_
>From Daryl Cumber Dance, _Honey, Hush!_
WHen I recorded this verse on May 21, 1995, the singer told me she learned it in gym class in the 1950s, but as she sang a younger woman joined her, suggesting that it has passed on to the next generation.

We must, we must, we must,
We must develop our bust.

We must, we must, we must,
We must develop our bust.

The bigger the better,
The tighter the sweater.
The boys are depending on us.

Pg. 526 (Autograph Album Rhymes, from J. Mason Brewer, _Worser Days and Better Times_):
Love all, trust few;
Learn to paddle your own canoe.

Pg. 527:
When you marry and get out of shape,
Get you a girdle for $2.98.

The Mississippi River is deep and wide;
Catch an alligator to the other side.

Girls are made of sugar and spice;
Boys aren't made, they just shoot dice.

When you get old and think you're sweet,
Take off your shoes, and smell your feet.

I wish you luck, I wish you joy,
I wish you first a baby boy;
And when his hair beings to curl,
I wish you next a baby girl;
And when her hair begins to knot,
I guess you know it's time to stop.

Ice cream city, candy state,
This sweet letter don't need no date.

Up on a house top, baking a cake,
The way I love you is no mistake.

Pg. 528:
I don't make love by the garden gate,
For love is blind, but the neighbors ain't.

I've got a cute little shape, and a pretty little figure;
Stand back, big boys, until I get a little bigger!

I love you once, I love you twice;
Baby, I love you next to Jesus Christ.

Milk is milk, cheese is cheese;
What is a kiss without a squeeze?

You're my morning milk, my evening cream,
My all-day study, and my midnight dream.

Roses on my shoulders, slippers on my feet;
I'm my mother's baby, don't you think I'm sweet?

Apples on the shelf, peaches in the bowl,
Can't get a sweetheart to save my soul.

Up on the mountain, five feet high,
I love you, baby, that ain't no lie.

Pg. 529:
When you get married and have twenty-four,
Don't stop there, the Army needs lots more.

When you get married and your husband gets drunk,
Put him in the trunk and sell him for junk.

When you get married and have twenty-five,
Daon't call it a family, call it a tribe!

The river is wide, the boat is floating,
Darling, let's marry and stop this courting!

Ice is ice, rice is rice;
One day, baby, you'll be my wife.

Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
Baby, I'm getting tired of sleeping by myself.

When you get married and live in China,
Rememeber me back in old North Carolina.

Life is sweet, life is swell,
But when you marry, life is hell.

When you marry and live across the lake,
Send me a kiss by a rattlesnake.

When you get married and live upstairs,
DOn't fall down putting on airs.

When you marry don't marry a cook,
Marry a man with a fat pocketbook.

When you marry and live across the sea,
Send me a cocoanut C.O.D.

Lions in the cage, monkeys in the zoo,
Who wants to marry a fool like you?

Pg. 530:
If you don't like my apples, don't shake my tree;
I ain't after your man, he's after me.

When you get married and live out west,
I'll send your mail by the Jigger express.

Pg. 531 (Rhymes and Brags from Muhammad Ali, formerly Cassius Clay)
I'm so mean, I make medicine sick.--Neil Leifer and Thomas Hauser, _Muhammad Ali Memories_

Pg. 549:
_More Dozens_
Because the dozens is such an obscene exchange, no attempt is made to reproduce a game here. Rather I present some carefully chosen standard lines from the game.

Yo' mama's like a bag of chips. She free to lay.
Yo' mama's so dumb she tripped over a cordless phone.
Yo' mama's so stupid it takes her two hours to watch _60 Minutes_.
Yo' mama's so dumb she thought she could send a voice mail by screaming into a envelope.
Yo' mama's so bald she gets brainwashed when she takes a shower.

Pg. 550:
Yo' mama's in the kitchen; yo' daddy's in jail;
yo' sister on de corner offering it for sale.

_Insults_

Happy birthday to you,
You belong in a zoo.
You look like a monkey,
And smell like one too!

My name is Ran,
I work in the sand;
I'd rather be a nigger
Than a poor White man.

White folks think they fine,
But their raggedy drawers stink just like mine.

He is so ugly he has to _sneak_ up on a mirror.

Pg. 551:
At least my mama ain't no doorknob,
Everybody get a turn.

Least my mama ain't no railroad track,
Lay out all over the country.

_Retorts_

Tell the truth, snaggle tooth.
What you mean, jelly bean?

Pg. 552:
See you later, Alligator.
After while, Crocodile.

I dig all jive.
That's the reason I stay alive.

Your eyes may shine, your teeth may grit,
But none of this food will you git.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Charleroi Mail  Friday, December 01, 1950 Charleroi, Pennsylvania
...Wilson in v.luch eyes MAY YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. Hut none of my money Will you.....sides arc still alking indicates there MAY be scTine ope left. When Girl Portia..

   Daily Register  Saturday, December 23, 1950 Harrisburg, Illinois
...her: "YOUR eyes MAY shine. YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. But none of my money Will you.....a Merry a New Year Holland's HOLIDAY MAY YOUR Holiday Cheer go on and on REES..


   Edwardsville Intelligencer  Wednesday, July 08, 1964 Edwardsville, Illinois
...you DON'T want MY peaches, DON'T SHAKE MY TREE. When you saw a red-haired girl.....Neutral IS A Nice GearBut DON'T You Have Any GOLDWATER--ATRAGEDY..


   Lancaster Eagle Gazette  Thursday, July 18, 1974 Lancaster, Ohio
...a brick. I'm so mean I MAKE MEDICINE SICK. The occasion for Ali's.....now than ever before which could MAKE up for some parts .of my game that..


   Mountain Democrat  Friday, February 17, 1989 Placerville, California
...I wIsh YOU luck, I wIsh YOU JOY, "I wIsh YOU fIrst a BABY BOY. "AND when hIs.....haIr begIns to curl, I wIsh YOU then a BABY gIrl. AND when her..



   Post Standard  Friday, August 23, 1991 Syracuse, New York
...comment on that situation and I 'GOD DOESN'T LIKE UGLY. He'll handle the.....coming. He is such a strong Peters DOESN'T have to be con- vinced of Seals..

   Post Standard  Sunday, March 19, 2000 Syracuse, New York
...to the public. For more 435-2155. 'GOD DON'T LIKE UGLY' An inspirational gospel.....musi- DON'T LIKE comes to the Landmark 362 S..


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Feb 12 17:11:20 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:11:20 -0500
Subject: like sardines in a can
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.121120.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED: 1911 packed like sardines in a box

OED: 1922 [Dialect Notes]  However, if one fishes around in the electronic
edition, there is _packed like sardines_ in Harper's Magazine (April 1887).

But, I stumbled across the following:

We passed a most miserable night.  We lay down as best we could, and were
packed like sardines in a box.  All wanted to sleep; but if one man moved,
he woke half a dozen others, who again in waking roused all the rest; so
seelp was, like our supper, onlyu to be enjoyed in imagination, and aall
we could do was to wait intently for daylight.
J.D. Borthwick, _To California Via Panama_, London: 1857, in _Pictures of
Gold Rush California_, Chicago: Lakeside Press, 1949, Chapter 2 p 49

For me, sardines come packed in a can.  So, the expression ought to read
for modern contexts "[packed] like sardines in a can."  It's not in OED.

The earliest quote I've found so far for this is:

"Butrning cotton is one of the most stubborn fires to extinguish," said
assistant fire chief W.B. Cooper.  "And that boxcar was packed like
sardines in a can."  _Daily Journal_ [Commerce, Texas], Sept. 16, 1957, p 1

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM  Sat Feb 12 17:51:39 2005
From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:51:39 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <200502112238824.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.125139.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

DOMINO
live sound field recording copyright 1979
by karen ellis
Guavaberry Books
1990
All collected from St. Croix USVI
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/GuavaberryBooks/Domino/descript.html

DESCRIPTION OF DOMINO
IF YO' PUT YO EAR A MANGO ROOT
YO' WILL HEAR CRAB COUGH.

Chapter 1 -
Clap Pattern: Spoken Chants and Songs

Domino

I Saw Your Boyfriend

Shame Shame Shame

Twenty-Four Black Birds

Jack Be Nimble

Four White Horses

Down Down Baby

Under the Blue Bush

The Number Song

Mama Lama

Mosquito One

Mayzoo

Humming Bird I

Humming Bird II

Una Dos y Tres

Coolie Man House

Grandmother

Have You Ever Seen a Chicken


Chapter 2 -
Circle Games, Line Dances, Call and Response

There's a Brown Girl in the Ring

Ding Dong

Kiss Kiss

Here Comes Jockey

Down in the River

Alabamba

Dutch Girl

Mother Goose

Miss Mary Had a Baby

In a Fine Castle

Santa Me Sayzee

Jane and Louisa

I Went to California

Bucket of Water

A Tisket A Tasket

Christmas Coming

Mister Wolf


Chapter 3 -
Jump Rope: Spoken Chants and Songs

Elimination Games and Jokes

Lambooshay

Teddy Bear

Johnny Jump on One Foot

I'm a Liar

Down by the Service Station

Solomon Agrundy

My Mother Your Mother

Cinderella

Down by the River

Sally Sally Water

All Together

The Queen of Hearts

Sea Shell Cockle Shell

Fish Fish

Elimination Games and Jokes

--- karen

<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
Guavaberry Books
<http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/GuavaberryBooks.html>
Domino - Traditional Children's Songs, Proverbs, and Culture U.S.V.I.
Find Music Books by The Funk Brothers  - 2x Grammy Winners

National Children's Folksong Repository
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Culdesac/Repository/NCFR.html

The Educational CyberPlayGround
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/

Hot List of Schools Online
Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/index.html


7 Hot Site Awards
New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink,
USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty
<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Feb 12 19:11:15 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:11:15 -0500
Subject: like sardines in a can
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.141115.0500.>

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 12:11:20 -0500, Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM> wrote:

>OED: 1911 packed like sardines in a box
>
>OED: 1922 [Dialect Notes]  However, if one fishes around in the electronic
>edition, there is _packed like sardines_ in Harper's Magazine (April 1887).
>
>But, I stumbled across the following:
>
>We passed a most miserable night.  We lay down as best we could, and were
>packed like sardines in a box.  All wanted to sleep; but if one man moved,
>he woke half a dozen others, who again in waking roused all the rest; so
>seelp was, like our supper, onlyu to be enjoyed in imagination, and aall
>we could do was to wait intently for daylight.
>J.D. Borthwick, _To California Via Panama_, London: 1857, in _Pictures of
>Gold Rush California_, Chicago: Lakeside Press, 1949, Chapter 2 p 49
>
>For me, sardines come packed in a can.  So, the expression ought to read
>for modern contexts "[packed] like sardines in a can."  It's not in OED.
>
>The earliest quote I've found so far for this is:
>
>"Butrning cotton is one of the most stubborn fires to extinguish," said
>assistant fire chief W.B. Cooper.  "And that boxcar was packed like
>sardines in a can."  _Daily Journal_ [Commerce, Texas], Sept. 16, 1957, p 1

Proquest is still down, but Cornell's Making of America has this:

--------
http://tinyurl.com/3hwaf
Conneau, Th?ophile.
Captain Canot; or, Twenty years of an African slaver; 1854.
Page 74

I found it impossible to adjust the whole in a sitting posture; but we
made them lie down in each other's laps, like sardines in a can, and in
this way obtained space for the entire cargo.

Also reprinted in:
http://tinyurl.com/4leu8
"Twenty Years in the Slave-Trade", p. 163
The North American review. / Volume 80, Issue 166, January 1855
--------


--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Feb 12 19:30:31 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:30:31 -0500
Subject: like sardines in a can
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.143031.0500.>

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:11:15 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer
<bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU> wrote:

>Proquest is still down, but Cornell's Making of America has this:
>
>--------
>http://tinyurl.com/3hwaf
>Conneau, Th?ophile.
>Captain Canot; or, Twenty years of an African slaver; 1854.
>Page 74
>
>I found it impossible to adjust the whole in a sitting posture; but we
>made them lie down in each other's laps, like sardines in a can, and in
>this way obtained space for the entire cargo.
>
>Also reprinted in:
>http://tinyurl.com/4leu8
>"Twenty Years in the Slave-Trade", p. 163
>The North American review. / Volume 80, Issue 166, January 1855
>--------

Sorry, the first citation is actually from Michigan's MoA database (which
has a book collection not available on Cornell's MoA).  And the author of
the book is actually Brantz Mayer, who based the work on Conneau's
journals.


--Ben Zimmer


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Sat Feb 12 21:37:11 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:37:11 +0000
Subject: huffing and puffing
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.213711.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have been lent a book titled '61 Pimlico', supposedly the journal of one
mid-Victorian photographer named Henry Haylor (ed Bill Jay, Nazraeli Press,
Tucson, 1998).

I strongly suspect that it is  fabrication. However, the following sentence
caught my eye, and I wondered if anyone has any evidence of early use of the
phrase 'huffing and puffing'.

'We talked for hours, each of us huffing and puffing away like noisy steam
engines on different tracks until, in the middle of my most eloquent, and
pompous, tirades she closed my mouth with hers.'

-Neil Crawford


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Sat Feb 12 22:27:41 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:27:41 +0000
Subject: huffing and puffing+
In-Reply-To: <200502122137.j1CLbEjb019864@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.222741.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Me again:

'Prince [of Wales - topical, or what?] or no I was primed for a quick
work-out with this bouncing beauty there and then.' - Ibid, 50

? earliest date for 'work-out'.

-Neil Crawford


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Feb 12 22:41:15 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:41:15 -0800
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.144115.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jawbone walk, jawbone talk,
Jawbone eat with a knife and fork.
          ---Old Minstrel Song


Mama's in the kitchen,
Papa's in jail.
Sister's on the corner,
Yellin' "Pussy for sale!"

           ---From a song called "Alley Boogie,"  sung on the march by U.S. Marines in New Zealand in WW II.

Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man,
Washed his face in a fryin' pan,
Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
Died with the toothache in his heel.

          ---Old Minstrel Song, "Old Dan Tucker"

JL


Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Hawkins," "made in de shade, sold in de sun," and others of interest here.


AMERICAN NEGRO FOLKLORE
by J. Mason Brewer
Chicago: Quadrangle Books
1968

Pg. 189 (Slave Seculars and Work Songs):
_I Went to Atlanta_

I Went to Atlanta
Never been dere a-fo'
White folks eat de apple
Nigger wait fo' co'

(Other verses are "White folks sleep on feather bed" and "White folks wear de fancy suit" and "White folks sit in Lawd's place"--ed.)

Pg. 304 (Cold Weather Signs): If turkeys roost high in a tree, it's a sign of cold weather. You will hear the old folks say, "Look out, children. Hawkins is coming."

Pg. 323 (Creole Proverbs):
Great to speak, little to do.
One goes everywhere with fine clothes.
Ox who comes first always drinks clear water.
Pg. 324:
That is not the baptism of a doll. (No laughing matter.)
When the tree falls the goat climbs it.
The best swimmer is often drowned.
When one is very hungry one does not peel the sweet potato.
His tongue knows no Sunday.
I keep nothing hidden in the sideboard. (I keep nothing back.)
Set your type before you go and then read it. (Have on your tongue what you are going to say.)

Pg. 338 ("Dirty Dozens" Rhymes):
Yo' mama's in de kitchen; yo' papa's in jail;
Yo' sister's round de corner, hollerin' "Hot stuff for sale."

Pg. 339 (Street Cries):
I sell to the rich,
I sell to the po';
I'm gonna sell the lady
Standin' in that do'.

I got water with the melon, red to the rind!
If you don't believe it just pull down your blind.
You eat the watermelon and preee-serve the rind!

Pg. 340:
We sell it to the rich, we sell it to the poor,
We give it to the sweet brownskin, peepin' out the door.
_Tout chaud, Madame, tout chaud!_
Git 'em while they're hot. Hot _calas_!

The Waffle Man is a fine old man.
He washes his face in a frying-pan.
He makes his waffles with his hand.
Everybody loved the waffle man.

Char-coal! Char-coal!
My horse is white, my face is black.
I sell my charcoal, two-bits a sack--
Char-coal! Char-coal!

Pg. 342:
Porgy walk; Porgy talk,
Porgy eat wid a knife an' fork;
Porgy-e-e-e-!

Vanilla, chocolate, peach cream
Dat surely freezed by de stream.
It was made in de shade, an' is sold in de sun.
If you ain't got a nickel, you can't get none.

Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
The same old rag man comin' this a-way.

Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.
Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
Raw, raw, raw.

Pg. 343 (Jeering and Taunting Rhymes):
A bushel o' wheat, a bushel o' san',
Ah'd rather be a nigger than a po' white man.

You bowlegged, lazy,
An' almo' half crazy.

Pg. 367 (Autograph Album Rhymes):
You can kiss beneath a grapevine, you can kiss beneath the rose,
But the best place I know of is to kiss beneath the nose.

Pg. 368:
Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
If you don't love nobody, keep it to yourself.

Up the hickory, an' down the pine;
Good-looking boys is hard to find.

Sugar is sweet, an' coffee is strong;
Write me a letter, and don't be long.

It takes a rocking chair to rock,
A rubber ball to roll,
A tall, skinny papa
To satisfy my soul.

Orange is a city, Lemon is a state;
I wrote you a letter, but I forgot de date.

Pg. 369:
My papa is a butcher,
My mama cuts de meat.
Ah'm de little weiner-wish
Dat runs around destreet.

If the ocean was milk, and the bottom was cream,
I'd dive for you like a submarine.

Cream cheese, cream cheese floatin' in the air,
That bald-headed man ain't got no hair.

Pg. 373 (Ring-Game Songs):
Ooka dooka soda cracker,
Does your father chew tobacco?
Yes, my father chews tobacco.
Ooka dooka soda cracker.


Copy cat, copy cat, sittin' on duh fence,
Trying' tuh make a dollar out o' fifteen cents.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
Trenton Times Monday, October 17, 1904 Trenton, New Jersey
...of whioti starts off with "ANY RAGS, ANY BONES, ANY bottles today." Of course.....Fred Barlow, asked, "Have you ANY rags today''" H happened that Just..


---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Feb 12 22:43:48 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:43:48 -0800
Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.144348.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

That should be "Medgar Evers."

JL

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even "I must develop my bust" is here!...ProQuest is down right now, so I'll search these with Newspaperarchive.


FROM MY PEOPLE:
400 YEARS OF AFICAN AMERICAN FOLKLORE
edited by Caryl Cumber Dance
New York: W. W. Norton
2002

Pg. 470 (Aphorisms and Other Proverbial Sayings):
God don't like ugly.
Hard head, soft behind.

Pg. 471:
You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.--Medgar Evans.

Pg. 480:
_I'll Eat Hen I'm Hungry_
>From Thomas W. Talley, _Negro Folk Rhymes_

I'll eat when I'se hungry,
An' I'll rink when I'se dry;
An' if de whitefolks don't kill me,
I'll live till I die.

In my liddle log cabin,
Ever since I've been born;
Dere hain't been no nothin'
'Cept dat hard salt parch corn.
Pg. 481:
But I knows what's a henhouse,
An' de tucky he charve;
An' if old Mosser don't kill me,
I cain't never starve.

_Aught's a Aughts_
Traditional

An aught's a aught and a figger's a figger;
All for the white folks and none for the nigger.

Pg. 509:
_Hambone, Hambone_
This traditional clapping game may be played with a partner or one indiv,; slap his thigh as he recites. Additional lines may be improvised.

Hambone, Hambone, where you been?
Round the world and back again.

Hambone, Hambone, what'd you do?
I got a train and I fairly flew.

Hambone, Hambone, where'd you stay?
I met a pretty girl and I couldn't get away.

Hambone, Hambone, where'd you go?
I hopped up to Miss Lucy's door.

Hambone, Hambone, what's you see?
I asked Miss Lucy to marry me.

Pg. 511:
_We Must, We Must, We Must_
>From Daryl Cumber Dance, _Honey, Hush!_
WHen I recorded this verse on May 21, 1995, the singer told me she learned it in gym class in the 1950s, but as she sang a younger woman joined her, suggesting that it has passed on to the next generation.

We must, we must, we must,
We must develop our bust.

We must, we must, we must,
We must develop our bust.

The bigger the better,
The tighter the sweater.
The boys are depending on us.

Pg. 526 (Autograph Album Rhymes, from J. Mason Brewer, _Worser Days and Better Times_):
Love all, trust few;
Learn to paddle your own canoe.

Pg. 527:
When you marry and get out of shape,
Get you a girdle for $2.98.

The Mississippi River is deep and wide;
Catch an alligator to the other side.

Girls are made of sugar and spice;
Boys aren't made, they just shoot dice.

When you get old and think you're sweet,
Take off your shoes, and smell your feet.

I wish you luck, I wish you joy,
I wish you first a baby boy;
And when his hair beings to curl,
I wish you next a baby girl;
And when her hair begins to knot,
I guess you know it's time to stop.

Ice cream city, candy state,
This sweet letter don't need no date.

Up on a house top, baking a cake,
The way I love you is no mistake.

Pg. 528:
I don't make love by the garden gate,
For love is blind, but the neighbors ain't.

I've got a cute little shape, and a pretty little figure;
Stand back, big boys, until I get a little bigger!

I love you once, I love you twice;
Baby, I love you next to Jesus Christ.

Milk is milk, cheese is cheese;
What is a kiss without a squeeze?

You're my morning milk, my evening cream,
My all-day study, and my midnight dream.

Roses on my shoulders, slippers on my feet;
I'm my mother's baby, don't you think I'm sweet?

Apples on the shelf, peaches in the bowl,
Can't get a sweetheart to save my soul.

Up on the mountain, five feet high,
I love you, baby, that ain't no lie.

Pg. 529:
When you get married and have twenty-four,
Don't stop there, the Army needs lots more.

When you get married and your husband gets drunk,
Put him in the trunk and sell him for junk.

When you get married and have twenty-five,
Daon't call it a family, call it a tribe!

The river is wide, the boat is floating,
Darling, let's marry and stop this courting!

Ice is ice, rice is rice;
One day, baby, you'll be my wife.

Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
Baby, I'm getting tired of sleeping by myself.

When you get married and live in China,
Rememeber me back in old North Carolina.

Life is sweet, life is swell,
But when you marry, life is hell.

When you marry and live across the lake,
Send me a kiss by a rattlesnake.

When you get married and live upstairs,
DOn't fall down putting on airs.

When you marry don't marry a cook,
Marry a man with a fat pocketbook.

When you marry and live across the sea,
Send me a cocoanut C.O.D.

Lions in the cage, monkeys in the zoo,
Who wants to marry a fool like you?

Pg. 530:
If you don't like my apples, don't shake my tree;
I ain't after your man, he's after me.

When you get married and live out west,
I'll send your mail by the Jigger express.

Pg. 531 (Rhymes and Brags from Muhammad Ali, formerly Cassius Clay)
I'm so mean, I make medicine sick.--Neil Leifer and Thomas Hauser, _Muhammad Ali Memories_

Pg. 549:
_More Dozens_
Because the dozens is such an obscene exchange, no attempt is made to reproduce a game here. Rather I present some carefully chosen standard lines from the game.

Yo' mama's like a bag of chips. She free to lay.
Yo' mama's so dumb she tripped over a cordless phone.
Yo' mama's so stupid it takes her two hours to watch _60 Minutes_.
Yo' mama's so dumb she thought she could send a voice mail by screaming into a envelope.
Yo' mama's so bald she gets brainwashed when she takes a shower.

Pg. 550:
Yo' mama's in the kitchen; yo' daddy's in jail;
yo' sister on de corner offering it for sale.

_Insults_

Happy birthday to you,
You belong in a zoo.
You look like a monkey,
And smell like one too!

My name is Ran,
I work in the sand;
I'd rather be a nigger
Than a poor White man.

White folks think they fine,
But their raggedy drawers stink just like mine.

He is so ugly he has to _sneak_ up on a mirror.

Pg. 551:
At least my mama ain't no doorknob,
Everybody get a turn.

Least my mama ain't no railroad track,
Lay out all over the country.

_Retorts_

Tell the truth, snaggle tooth.
What you mean, jelly bean?

Pg. 552:
See you later, Alligator.
After while, Crocodile.

I dig all jive.
That's the reason I stay alive.

Your eyes may shine, your teeth may grit,
But none of this food will you git.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
Charleroi Mail Friday, December 01, 1950 Charleroi, Pennsylvania
...Wilson in v.luch eyes MAY YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. Hut none of my money Will you.....sides arc still alking indicates there MAY be scTine ope left. When Girl Portia..

Daily Register Saturday, December 23, 1950 Harrisburg, Illinois
...her: "YOUR eyes MAY shine. YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. But none of my money Will you.....a Merry a New Year Holland's HOLIDAY MAY YOUR Holiday Cheer go on and on REES..


Edwardsville Intelligencer Wednesday, July 08, 1964 Edwardsville, Illinois
...you DON'T want MY peaches, DON'T SHAKE MY TREE. When you saw a red-haired girl.....Neutral IS A Nice GearBut DON'T You Have Any GOLDWATER--ATRAGEDY..


Lancaster Eagle Gazette Thursday, July 18, 1974 Lancaster, Ohio
...a brick. I'm so mean I MAKE MEDICINE SICK. The occasion for Ali's.....now than ever before which could MAKE up for some parts .of my game that..


Mountain Democrat Friday, February 17, 1989 Placerville, California
...I wIsh YOU luck, I wIsh YOU JOY, "I wIsh YOU fIrst a BABY BOY. "AND when hIs.....haIr begIns to curl, I wIsh YOU then a BABY gIrl. AND when her..



Post Standard Friday, August 23, 1991 Syracuse, New York
...comment on that situation and I 'GOD DOESN'T LIKE UGLY. He'll handle the.....coming. He is such a strong Peters DOESN'T have to be con- vinced of Seals..

Post Standard Sunday, March 19, 2000 Syracuse, New York
...to the public. For more 435-2155. 'GOD DON'T LIKE UGLY' An inspirational gospel.....musi- DON'T LIKE comes to the Landmark 362 S..


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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Feb 12 22:45:54 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 14:45:54 -0800
Subject: like sardines in a can
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.144554.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

With reference to the NYC subway, I have only heard, "We were packed like sardines."  From 1950s at least.

JL

Barnhart <barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Barnhart
Subject: like sardines in a can
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OED: 1911 packed like sardines in a box

OED: 1922 [Dialect Notes] However, if one fishes around in the electronic
edition, there is _packed like sardines_ in Harper's Magazine (April 1887).

But, I stumbled across the following:

We passed a most miserable night. We lay down as best we could, and were
packed like sardines in a box. All wanted to sleep; but if one man moved,
he woke half a dozen others, who again in waking roused all the rest; so
seelp was, like our supper, onlyu to be enjoyed in imagination, and aall
we could do was to wait intently for daylight.
J.D. Borthwick, _To California Via Panama_, London: 1857, in _Pictures of
Gold Rush California_, Chicago: Lakeside Press, 1949, Chapter 2 p 49

For me, sardines come packed in a can. So, the expression ought to read
for modern contexts "[packed] like sardines in a can." It's not in OED.

The earliest quote I've found so far for this is:

"Butrning cotton is one of the most stubborn fires to extinguish," said
assistant fire chief W.B. Cooper. "And that boxcar was packed like
sardines in a can." _Daily Journal_ [Commerce, Texas], Sept. 16, 1957, p 1

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


---------------------------------
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From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Sat Feb 12 23:19:04 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:19:04 +0000
Subject: big picture
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.231904.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Help me out here.

'You have been so obsessed with your own private crusade against sexual  and
artistic repression waged in the tiny arena of aesthetics that you have been
blind to the big picture.'
-ibid ['61 Pimlico']. 60

earliest date please;

-Neil Crawford


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Sat Feb 12 23:20:58 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 23:20:58 +0000
Subject: looney bin
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.232058.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

? earliest appearance.

-Neil Crawford


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Feb 12 23:39:11 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:39:11 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <E1Czqv8-0005lf-00@mx10.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.183911.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 12, 2005, at 1:38 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      American Negro Folklore (1968)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Hawkins," "made in de shade, sold in de sun," and others of interest
> here.
>
>
> AMERICAN NEGRO FOLKLORE
> by J. Mason Brewer

J. Mason Brewer

Old friend of my family down in Texas. A few other notes are below.

-Wilson Gray

> Chicago: Quadrangle Books
> 1968
>
> Pg. 189 (Slave Seculars and Work Songs):
> _I Went to Atlanta_
>
> I Went to Atlanta
> Never been dere a-fo'
> White folks eat de apple
> Nigger wait fo' co'
>
> (Other verses are "White folks sleep on feather bed" and "White folks
> wear de fancy suit" and "White folks sit in Lawd's place"--ed.)
>
> Pg. 304 (Cold Weather Signs): If turkeys roost high in a tree, it's a
> sign of cold weather. You will hear the old folks say, "Look out,
> children. Hawkins is coming."
>
> Pg. 323 (Creole Proverbs):
> Great to speak, little to do.
> One goes everywhere with fine clothes.
> Ox who comes first always drinks clear water.
> Pg. 324:
> That is not the baptism of a doll. (No laughing matter.)
> When the tree falls the goat climbs it.
> The best swimmer is often drowned.
> When one is very hungry one does not peel the sweet potato.
> His tongue knows no Sunday.
> I keep nothing hidden in the sideboard. (I keep nothing back.)
> Set your type before you go and then read it. (Have on your tongue
> what you are going to say.)
>
> Pg. 338 ("Dirty Dozens" Rhymes):
> Yo' mama's in de kitchen; yo' papa's in jail;
> Yo' sister's round de corner, hollerin' "Hot stuff for sale."

Clearly, the last line above has been bowdlerized.

How's yo' mama?
She[my mama]'s a sco'. How's yo' 'ho'?

Fucked yo' mama on a red-hot stove
Baby come out sellln' Post* 'n' Globe.* *Local newspapers in St. Louis.

>
> Pg. 339 (Street Cries):
> I sell to the rich,
> I sell to the po';
> I'm gonna sell the lady
> Standin' in that do'.
>
> I got water with the melon, red to the rind!
> If you don't believe it just pull down your blind.
> You eat the watermelon and preee-serve the rind!
>
> Pg. 340:
> We sell it to the rich, we sell it to the poor,
> We give it to the sweet brownskin, peepin' out the door.
> _Tout chaud, Madame, tout chaud!_
> Git 'em while they're hot. Hot _calas_!
>
> The Waffle Man is a fine old man.
> He washes his face in a frying-pan.
> He makes his waffles with his hand.
> Everybody loved the waffle man.
>
> Char-coal! Char-coal!
> My horse is white, my face is black.
> I sell my charcoal, two-bits a sack--
> Char-coal! Char-coal!
>
> Pg. 342:
> Porgy walk; Porgy talk,
> Porgy eat wid a knife an' fork;
> Porgy-e-e-e-!
>
> Vanilla, chocolate, peach cream
> Dat surely freezed by de stream.
> It was made in de shade, an' is sold in de sun.
> If you ain't got a nickel, you can't get none.
>
> Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
> The same old rag man comin' this a-way.
>
> Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.

swimp

Shreveport (Louisiana) is often pronounced "Sweepo" in the local BE.
(In Texas, we say "Sreepote."

> Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
> Raw, raw, raw.
>
> Pg. 343 (Jeering and Taunting Rhymes):
> A bushel o' wheat, a bushel o' san',
> Ah'd rather be a nigger than a po' white man.
>
> You bowlegged, lazy,
> An' almo' half crazy.
>
> Pg. 367 (Autograph Album Rhymes):
> You can kiss beneath a grapevine, you can kiss beneath the rose,
> But the best place I know of is to kiss beneath the nose.
>
> Pg. 368:
> Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
> If you don't love nobody, keep it to yourself.
>
> Up the hickory, an' down the pine;
> Good-looking boys is hard to find.
>
> Sugar is sweet, an' coffee is strong;
> Write me a letter, and don't be long.
>
> It takes a rocking chair to rock,
> A rubber ball to roll,
> A tall, skinny papa
> To satisfy my soul.

Football cheer used by Sumner High School in St. Louis:

It takes a rocking chair to rock
It takes a football to roll
it takes a team like Sumner
To groove my soul
Oh, yes, yes, yes
Oh, yes, yes, yes

>
> Orange is a city, Lemon is a state;
> I wrote you a letter, but I forgot de date.
>
> Pg. 369:
> My papa is a butcher,
> My mama cuts de meat.
> Ah'm de little weiner-wish
> Dat runs around destreet.
>
> If the ocean was milk, and the bottom was cream,
> I'd dive for you like a submarine.
>
> Cream cheese, cream cheese floatin' in the air,
> That bald-headed man ain't got no hair.
>
> Pg. 373 (Ring-Game Songs):
> Ooka dooka soda cracker,
> Does your father chew tobacco?
> Yes, my father chews tobacco.
> Ooka dooka soda cracker.

I know only the "Acka backa soda cracker" version

>
>
> Copy cat, copy cat, sittin' on duh fence,
> Trying' tuh make a dollar out o' fifteen cents.
>
>
> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
>    Trenton Times  Monday, October 17, 1904 Trenton, New Jersey
> ...of whioti starts off with "ANY RAGS, ANY BONES, ANY bottles today."
> Of course.....Fred Barlow, asked, "Have you ANY rags today''" H
> happened that Just..
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 13 00:47:27 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 19:47:27 -0500
Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
In-Reply-To: <E1Czs0f-0007cF-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.194727.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 12, 2005, at 2:47 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      African American Folklore (2002)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Even "I must develop my bust" is here!...ProQuest is down right now,
> so I'll search these with Newspaperarchive.

   "I must develop my bust"?!!! Well, after a half-century of
desegregation and contamination, what can one expect?

   More random stuff below.

   -Wilson Gray

>
>
> FROM MY PEOPLE:
> 400 YEARS OF AFICAN AMERICAN FOLKLORE
> edited by Caryl Cumber Dance
> New York: W. W. Norton
> 2002
>
> Pg. 470 (Aphorisms and Other Proverbial Sayings):
> God don't like ugly.
> Hard head, soft behind.
>
> Pg. 471:
> You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.--Medgar Evans.
>
> Pg. 480:
> _I'll Eat Hen I'm Hungry_
> From Thomas W. Talley, _Negro Folk Rhymes_
>
> I'll eat when I'se hungry,
> An' I'll rink when I'se dry;
> An' if de whitefolks don't kill me,
> I'll live till I die.
>
> In my liddle log cabin,
> Ever since I've been born;
> Dere hain't been no nothin'
> 'Cept dat hard salt parch corn.
> Pg. 481:
> But I knows what's a henhouse,
> An' de tucky he charve;
> An' if old Mosser don't kill me,
> I cain't never starve.
>
> _Aught's a Aughts_
> Traditional
>
> An aught's a aught and a figger's a figger;
> All for the white folks and none for the nigger.
>
> Pg. 509:
> _Hambone, Hambone_
> This traditional clapping game may be played with a partner or one
> indiv,; slap his thigh as he recites. Additional lines may be
> improvised.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, where you been?
> Round the world and back again.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, what'd you do?
> I got a train and I fairly flew.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, where'd you stay?
> I met a pretty girl and I couldn't get away.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, where'd you go?
> I hopped up to Miss Lucy's door.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, what's you see?
> I asked Miss Lucy to marry me.
>
> Pg. 511:
> _We Must, We Must, We Must_
> From Daryl Cumber Dance, _Honey, Hush!_
> WHen I recorded this verse on May 21, 1995, the singer told me she
> learned it in gym class in the 1950s, but as she sang a younger woman
> joined her, suggesting that it has passed on to the next generation.
>
> We must, we must, we must,
> We must develop our bust.
>
> We must, we must, we must,
> We must develop our bust.
>
> The bigger the better,
> The tighter the sweater.
> The boys are depending on us.
>
> Pg. 526 (Autograph Album Rhymes, from J. Mason Brewer, _Worser Days
> and Better Times_):
> Love all, trust few;
> Learn to paddle your own canoe.
>
> Pg. 527:
> When you marry and get out of shape,
> Get you a girdle for $2.98.
>
> The Mississippi River is deep and wide;
> Catch an alligator to the other side.
>
> Girls are made of sugar and spice;
> Boys aren't made, they just shoot dice.
>
> When you get old and think you're sweet,
> Take off your shoes, and smell your feet.
>
> I wish you luck, I wish you joy,
> I wish you first a baby boy;
> And when his hair beings to curl,
> I wish you next a baby girl;
> And when her hair begins to knot,
> I guess you know it's time to stop.
>
> Ice cream city, candy state,
> This sweet letter don't need no date.
>
> Up on a house top, baking a cake,
> The way I love you is no mistake.
>
> Pg. 528:
> I don't make love by the garden gate,
> For love is blind, but the neighbors ain't.
>
> I've got a cute little shape, and a pretty little figure;
> Stand back, big boys, until I get a little bigger!
>
> I love you once, I love you twice;
> Baby, I love you next to Jesus Christ.

I love you so much that I'd kill a brick for you.

>
> Milk is milk, cheese is cheese;
> What is a kiss without a squeeze?
>
> You're my morning milk, my evening cream,
> My all-day study, and my midnight dream.
>
> Roses on my shoulders, slippers on my feet;
> I'm my mother's baby, don't you think I'm sweet?
>
> Apples on the shelf, peaches in the bowl,
> Can't get a sweetheart to save my soul.
>
> Up on the mountain, five feet high,
> I love you, baby, that ain't no lie.
>
> Pg. 529:
> When you get married and have twenty-four,
> Don't stop there, the Army needs lots more.
>
> When you get married and your husband gets drunk,
> Put him in the trunk and sell him for junk.
>
> When you get married and have twenty-five,
> Daon't call it a family, call it a tribe!
>
> The river is wide, the boat is floating,
> Darling, let's marry and stop this courting!
>
> Ice is ice, rice is rice;
> One day, baby, you'll be my wife.
>
> Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
> Baby, I'm getting tired of sleeping by myself.
>
> When you get married and live in China,
> Rememeber me back in old North Carolina.
>
> Life is sweet, life is swell,
> But when you marry, life is hell.
>
> When you marry and live across the lake,
> Send me a kiss by a rattlesnake.
>
> When you get married and live upstairs,
> DOn't fall down putting on airs.
>
> When you marry don't marry a cook,
> Marry a man with a fat pocketbook.
>
> When you marry and live across the sea,
> Send me a cocoanut C.O.D.
>
> Lions in the cage, monkeys in the zoo,
> Who wants to marry a fool like you?
>
> Pg. 530:
> If you don't like my apples, don't shake my tree;

   You're the cutest thing that I did ever see.
   I really love your peaches. Gonna shake your tree.

   If you don't like my peaches, don't you shake my tree.

> I ain't after your man, he's after me.
>
> When you get married and live out west,
> I'll send your mail by the Jigger express.
>
> Pg. 531 (Rhymes and Brags from Muhammad Ali, formerly Cassius Clay)
> I'm so mean, I make medicine sick.--Neil Leifer and Thomas Hauser,
> _Muhammad Ali Memories_
>
> Pg. 549:
> _More Dozens_
> Because the dozens is such an obscene exchange, no attempt is made to
> reproduce a game here. Rather I present some carefully chosen standard
> lines from the game.
>
> Yo' mama's like a bag of chips. She free to lay.
> Yo' mama's so dumb she tripped over a cordless phone.
> Yo' mama's so stupid it takes her two hours to watch _60 Minutes_.
> Yo' mama's so dumb she thought she could send a voice mail by
> screaming into a envelope.
> Yo' mama's so bald she gets brainwashed when she takes a shower.
>
> Pg. 550:
> Yo' mama's in the kitchen; yo' daddy's in jail;
> yo' sister on de corner offering it for sale.
>
> _Insults_
>
> Happy birthday to you,
> You belong in a zoo.
> You look like a monkey,
> And smell like one too!
>
> My name is Ran,
> I work in the sand;
> I'd rather be a nigger
> Than a poor White man.
>
> White folks think they fine,
> But their raggedy drawers stink just like mine.
>
> He is so ugly he has to _sneak_ up on a mirror.

    He's two shades darker than Bell's telephone. (clearly older than
"black is beautiful" and the break-up of Ma Bell.)

    He's of Indian descent: Choctaw. The lightest [sc. shade of skin in
his family] is chocolate; the darkest is tar.

    He's so ugly that, when he cries, the tears roll down the back of
his head.

    He's so ugly that it looks like he's been in an ax fight and
everybody had an ax but him.

>
> Pg. 551:
> At least my mama ain't no doorknob,
> Everybody get a turn.
>
> Least my mama ain't no railroad track,
> Lay out all over the country.
>
> _Retorts_
>
> Tell the truth, snaggle tooth.
> What you mean, jelly bean?

   See what I mean, jelly bean?
   You heard what I said, nappy head.
   Step out on the patio, daddy-o.
   Make like Ezzard and hit the desert.
>
> Pg. 552:
> See you later, Alligator.
> After while, Crocodile.
>
> I dig all jive.
> That's the reason I stay alive.
>
> Your eyes may shine, your teeth may grit,
> But none of this food will you git.

    Baby, I'm 500% more man.
    I lay more pipe than a plumber can.

    After I take a leak, I don't shake it off.
    I take my left foot and kick it off.

    She got mo' ass than a toilet seat. (Said in response to the
previous observation) Better mo' ass than no ass.

>
>
> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
>    Charleroi Mail  Friday, December 01, 1950 Charleroi, Pennsylvania
> ...Wilson in v.luch eyes MAY YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. Hut none of my money
> Will you.....sides arc still alking indicates there MAY be scTine ope
> left. When Girl Portia..
>
>    Daily Register  Saturday, December 23, 1950 Harrisburg, Illinois
> ...her: "YOUR eyes MAY shine. YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. But none of my
> money Will you.....a Merry a New Year Holland's HOLIDAY MAY YOUR
> Holiday Cheer go on and on REES..
>
>
>    Edwardsville Intelligencer  Wednesday, July 08, 1964 Edwardsville,
> Illinois
> ...you DON'T want MY peaches, DON'T SHAKE MY TREE. When you saw a
> red-haired girl.....Neutral IS A Nice GearBut DON'T You Have Any
> GOLDWATER--ATRAGEDY..
>
>
>    Lancaster Eagle Gazette  Thursday, July 18, 1974 Lancaster, Ohio
> ...a brick. I'm so mean I MAKE MEDICINE SICK. The occasion for
> Ali's.....now than ever before which could MAKE up for some parts .of
> my game that..
>
>
>    Mountain Democrat  Friday, February 17, 1989 Placerville, California
> ...I wIsh YOU luck, I wIsh YOU JOY, "I wIsh YOU fIrst a BABY BOY. "AND
> when hIs.....haIr begIns to curl, I wIsh YOU then a BABY gIrl. AND
> when her..
>
>
>
>    Post Standard  Friday, August 23, 1991 Syracuse, New York
> ...comment on that situation and I 'GOD DOESN'T LIKE UGLY. He'll
> handle the.....coming. He is such a strong Peters DOESN'T have to be
> con- vinced of Seals..
>
>    Post Standard  Sunday, March 19, 2000 Syracuse, New York
> ...to the public. For more 435-2155. 'GOD DON'T LIKE UGLY' An
> inspirational gospel.....musi- DON'T LIKE comes to the Landmark 362
> S..
>


From write at SCN.ORG  Sun Feb 13 01:58:07 2005
From: write at SCN.ORG (Jan Kammert)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 17:58:07 -0800
Subject: spirituals
In-Reply-To: <fc75953e06df876d74f2a94099672e5c@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.175807.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember a discussion about spirituals on this list several weeks ago.

I teach 8th grade, and one of my students is researching spirituals as
a form of communication for a paper in my class.  I'm looking for primary
sources (preferably on the Internet) that he can read for more
information.

If you have thoughts about where he can look, please let me know.
Thank you,
Jan


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb 13 02:40:11 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:40:11 -0500
Subject: Whisky dry/Heaven die (1874),
 Sardines/Herrings: Sweet Chariot; and more
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.214011.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PACKED LIKE SARDINES/HERRINGS

I discussed "packed like sardines/herrings" here in October 1999. No one remembers? Nobody at all? Nobody looks in the ADS-L archives? Here it is again:


     Why sardines?
     In a previous posting, I wrote that people on the Lexington Avenue
subway line were "packed like sardines."
     This is from the BARNHART DICTIONARY OF ETYMOLOGY (Amazon's "Eyes"
recently announced a new book called the CHAMBERS DICTIONARY OF ETYMOLOGY,
but it's BARNHART with a different name):

_sardine_ (...)--v. Informal. to pack closely, crowd, cram.  1895, American
English, from the noun, as used in the phrase _packed like sardines_ (1911).

    Christine Ammer's AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF IDIOMS has "late 1800s"
for _packed in like sardines_.
    The Making of America database has:

March 1855, DEBOW'S REVIEW, pg. 300--...made them lie down in each other's
laps, like _sardines_ in a can, and in this way obtained space for the entire
cargo.  (The article is "The African Slave Trade," and this quotation comes
from "Capt. Canot, Twenty Years of an African Slaver," perhaps referring to
1826--ed.)
March 1869, OVERLAND MONTHLY AND OUT WEST MAGAZINE, pg. 273--...packed like
herrings in a cask, or sardines in a box, we...

    Herrings!  Ah, so sardines have some packing competition!

March 1846, LADIES' REPOSITORY, pg. 67--...packed, close as a box of
herrings...
March 1851, SOUTHERN LITERARY MESSENGER, pg. 180--...the guests have as much
elbow room as the herrings in a box...
July 1854, SOUTHERN LITERARY MESSENGER, pg. 430--...packed together like
herrings in a barrel...
September 1870, LADIES' REPOSITORY, pg. 231--...eight babies were packed
around the walls like herrings in a box.
1871, WESTWARD BY RAIL by W. Fraser Rae, pg. 294--The common saying about
being packed as closely as herrings in a barrel...

    It appears from the above that the phrase began as herrings in a
barrel/box/cask, and then became sardines in a can.  This should be recorded.
    The phrase is now "packed as tightly as my travel luggage on a return
trip."


(EARLY AMERICAN NEWSPAPERS)
Boston Commercial Gazette, 1819-08-23, col. 52, isss. 20, pg. 2:
...they are literally packed like herrings in a cask; they each of them paid in advance 150 florins; there will probably be a psetilence on board the ship before it reaches Flushing.

--------------------------------------------------------------
PROQUEST--Still down. Still no new material for 2005.


SPATCHCOCK QUERY--I don't have time for a detailed answer. My food books are a mess. I do parking tickets all day. My research and writing income this year is $0.


DARYL CUMBER DANCE, MEDGAR EVERS--That should be "Daryl Cumber Dance, not "Caryl," for the author's name...I knew it was Medgar Evers. It looked like Medgar Evans was written in the book so I typed that; it was late and I had more typing. There's a Medgar Evers school here in NYC.


BIG PICTURE--I've posted here several times explaning "the big picture." Picture shows (movies) helped the phrase. I wouldn't say that "big picture" is Victorian.


HAWKINS--Gerald Cohen has requested "Hawkins" from the Peter Tamony file, so that should be coming in a little while. I checked out NEGRO FOLK-TALES (1938) by Helen Whiting and WITH AESOP ALONG THE BLACK BORDER (1924) by Ambrose Gonzales. Both have stories about "wind," but no Hawkins.


WHISKY DRY/HEAVEN DIE--I checked Acessible archives in the NYPL, and it's the same thing but earlier. From the CHRISITAN RECORDER (Philadelphia, PA), 13 August 1874:

The following is said to be a popular song in Duluth:
"Beefsteak when I'm hungry,
Whiskey when I'm dry,
Greenbacks when I'm hard up,
And Heaven when I die."


ALL GOOD DOGS GO TO HEAVEN--I was looking for the last line of the above when this came up. Does Fred Shapiro have a very old cit for this? From the CHRISTIAN RECORDER, 20 February 1873:

"Tom, will kittens and puppies go to heaven when they die, if they  are real good?"
"Ho! they haven't got any soul?"
"Yes, they have. A soul is what looks out of your eyes, and you just look in their eyes..."

(GOOGLE)
[PDF] the Book Mailer
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... fish. The ancient Teutons had a saying: "All good dogs go to heaven." They
had better. For me it won't be heaven without my dogs. ...
www.thebookmailer.com/Order/BMarchive/02SPBM.pdf - Similar pages


SWING LOW, SWEET CHARIOT--I'll check the OXFORD BOOK OF SPIRITUALS (2002) in a minute. What's the origin of this traditional song? "Swing low" was supposed to be a phrase used on the underground railraod. I don't have my HDAS with the letter "S." From the CHRISTIAN RECORDER, 21 January 1875:

A colored gentleman from Haddington, N. J., John Stephenson by name, presided at the organ and led the singing "John Brown," "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot," and other kindred pieces were rendered with great gusto.

--------------------------------------------------------------
COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC:

WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON WEDNESDAY?--Astor Place Subway Station. Cheddar Cheese "Combos." Delicious.

WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON THURSDAY?--Ghenet, Mulberry Street and East Houston Street (right behind the Puck Building). It's a fine Ethiopian restaurant with a nice-looking menu. A little more expensive than Queen of Sheba, but about the same.

WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON FRIDAY?--I wanted to go to the Mermaid Inn on Second Avenue for fish, but the place was crowded. I went to Secrets of Thai Cooking, First Avenue and Fifth Street. No special secrets here. I asked my Thai server her name. She said it was "Apple."

WHERE DID BARRY POPIK _NOT_ EAT ON SATURDAY?--City Bakery, 3 West 18th Street. They're having a hot chocolate festival. It looked thicker than the Choco Bon Loco that I didn't have at Au Bon Pain. I'm still trying to work off the Frrrrozen Hot Chocolate from Serendipity. This NYC "Hot Chocolate Crawl" is a bad idea.

WHERE DID BARRY POPIK _NOT_ EAT ON SATURDAY?--Rickshaw Dumpling Bar, 61 West 23rd Street. This was featured two days ago in "Daily Candy," and I always trust everything in Daily Candy. It was closed. Someone there said that Daily Candy screwed up. I got a menu and--it's dumpling folks. Dumplings. Daily Candy and others make it seem like these new restaurants re-invent the wheel.

WHERE DID BARRY POPIK _NOT_ EAT ON SATURDAY?--BLT Fish, 21 West 17th Street. This place has been getting terrific write-ups. I was told it's a one hour-plus wait for a table. I could eat at the bar, I was told, but you couldn't get bar space, either.

WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON SATURDAY?--Caffe Reggio (www.cafereggio.com), 119 MacDougal Street. Awright, so I finally had their "original cappuccino." The place has been there since 1927.

WHERE DID BARRY POPIK EAT ON SATURDAY?--Ama, 48 MacDougal Street. It's been open for three days, and it was featured in a nice article, with a picture of the owner, in Friday's METRO. It's owned by the beautiful Donatella Arpaia (http://www.dbdrestaurant.com, http://www.bellinirestaurantnyc.com). The place is below Houston, on a spot on MacDougal that doesn't get the NYU foot traffic of the other Italian restaurants above Houston. Donatella was there and she said the place was Southern Italian cuisine. She said that METRO had misspelled her name. She said that she was a lawyer for "seven months." The place may or may not make it, but I'm smitten by the owner.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 13 03:09:39 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:09:39 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <E1D05x5-0001zG-00@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.220939.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 12, 2005, at 5:41 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: American Negro Folklore (1968)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Jawbone walk, jawbone talk,
> Jawbone eat with a knife and fork.
>           ---Old Minstrel Song
>
>
> Mama's in the kitchen,
> Papa's in jail.
> Sister's on the corner,
> Yellin' "Pussy for sale!"
>
>            ---From a song called "Alley Boogie,"  sung on the march by
> U.S. Marines in New Zealand in WW II.
>
> Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man,
> Washed his face in a fryin' pan,
> Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
> Died with the toothache in his heel.
>
>           ---Old Minstrel Song, "Old Dan Tucker"
>
> JL

Is this the same song that has the verse (or chorus?):

Get out of the way of old Dan Tucker
Too late to get his supper
Supper's over and dinner's cookin'
Old Dan Tucker just standin' there lookin'

Wilson, just wondering

>
>
> Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Hawkins," "made in de shade, sold in de sun," and others of interest
> here.
>
>
> AMERICAN NEGRO FOLKLORE
> by J. Mason Brewer
> Chicago: Quadrangle Books
> 1968
>
> Pg. 189 (Slave Seculars and Work Songs):
> _I Went to Atlanta_
>
> I Went to Atlanta
> Never been dere a-fo'
> White folks eat de apple
> Nigger wait fo' co'
>
> (Other verses are "White folks sleep on feather bed" and "White folks
> wear de fancy suit" and "White folks sit in Lawd's place"--ed.)
>
> Pg. 304 (Cold Weather Signs): If turkeys roost high in a tree, it's a
> sign of cold weather. You will hear the old folks say, "Look out,
> children. Hawkins is coming."
>
> Pg. 323 (Creole Proverbs):
> Great to speak, little to do.
> One goes everywhere with fine clothes.
> Ox who comes first always drinks clear water.
> Pg. 324:
> That is not the baptism of a doll. (No laughing matter.)
> When the tree falls the goat climbs it.
> The best swimmer is often drowned.
> When one is very hungry one does not peel the sweet potato.
> His tongue knows no Sunday.
> I keep nothing hidden in the sideboard. (I keep nothing back.)
> Set your type before you go and then read it. (Have on your tongue
> what you are going to say.)
>
> Pg. 338 ("Dirty Dozens" Rhymes):
> Yo' mama's in de kitchen; yo' papa's in jail;
> Yo' sister's round de corner, hollerin' "Hot stuff for sale."
>
> Pg. 339 (Street Cries):
> I sell to the rich,
> I sell to the po';
> I'm gonna sell the lady
> Standin' in that do'.
>
> I got water with the melon, red to the rind!
> If you don't believe it just pull down your blind.
> You eat the watermelon and preee-serve the rind!
>
> Pg. 340:
> We sell it to the rich, we sell it to the poor,
> We give it to the sweet brownskin, peepin' out the door.
> _Tout chaud, Madame, tout chaud!_
> Git 'em while they're hot. Hot _calas_!
>
> The Waffle Man is a fine old man.
> He washes his face in a frying-pan.
> He makes his waffles with his hand.
> Everybody loved the waffle man.
>
> Char-coal! Char-coal!
> My horse is white, my face is black.
> I sell my charcoal, two-bits a sack--
> Char-coal! Char-coal!
>
> Pg. 342:
> Porgy walk; Porgy talk,
> Porgy eat wid a knife an' fork;
> Porgy-e-e-e-!
>
> Vanilla, chocolate, peach cream
> Dat surely freezed by de stream.
> It was made in de shade, an' is sold in de sun.
> If you ain't got a nickel, you can't get none.
>
> Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
> The same old rag man comin' this a-way.
>
> Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.
> Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
> Raw, raw, raw.
>
> Pg. 343 (Jeering and Taunting Rhymes):
> A bushel o' wheat, a bushel o' san',
> Ah'd rather be a nigger than a po' white man.
>
> You bowlegged, lazy,
> An' almo' half crazy.
>
> Pg. 367 (Autograph Album Rhymes):
> You can kiss beneath a grapevine, you can kiss beneath the rose,
> But the best place I know of is to kiss beneath the nose.
>
> Pg. 368:
> Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
> If you don't love nobody, keep it to yourself.
>
> Up the hickory, an' down the pine;
> Good-looking boys is hard to find.
>
> Sugar is sweet, an' coffee is strong;
> Write me a letter, and don't be long.
>
> It takes a rocking chair to rock,
> A rubber ball to roll,
> A tall, skinny papa
> To satisfy my soul.
>
> Orange is a city, Lemon is a state;
> I wrote you a letter, but I forgot de date.
>
> Pg. 369:
> My papa is a butcher,
> My mama cuts de meat.
> Ah'm de little weiner-wish
> Dat runs around destreet.
>
> If the ocean was milk, and the bottom was cream,
> I'd dive for you like a submarine.
>
> Cream cheese, cream cheese floatin' in the air,
> That bald-headed man ain't got no hair.
>
> Pg. 373 (Ring-Game Songs):
> Ooka dooka soda cracker,
> Does your father chew tobacco?
> Yes, my father chews tobacco.
> Ooka dooka soda cracker.
>
>
> Copy cat, copy cat, sittin' on duh fence,
> Trying' tuh make a dollar out o' fifteen cents.
>
>
> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
> Trenton Times Monday, October 17, 1904 Trenton, New Jersey
> ...of whioti starts off with "ANY RAGS, ANY BONES, ANY bottles today."
> Of course.....Fred Barlow, asked, "Have you ANY rags today''" H
> happened that Just..
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb 13 03:27:06 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:27:06 -0500
Subject: spirituals
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.222706.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

THE OXFORD BOOK OF SPIRITUALS
edited by Moses Hogan
Oxford University Press 2002

I'm looking at it right now. There is NO historical information on the spirituals. I don't mean a little. I mean NO INFORMATION. There a two-page preface "A Note on Dialect" by James Weldon Johnson, but that's it. How could Oxford publish a book like this?

--------------------------------------------------------------
AMERICAN NEGRO SONGS:
A COMPREHENSIVE COLLECTION OF 250 FOLK SONGS, RELIGIOUS AND SECULAR, WITH A FOREWORD BY JOHN W. WORK
New York: Howell, Soskin & Co.
1940

No historical information again!

--------------------------------------------------------------
THE BOOK OF AMERICAN NEGRO SPIRITUALS
edited with an introduction by James Weldon Johnson
Musical arrangements by J. Rosamond Johnson
Additional numbers by Lawrence Brown
1925 and 1926, two volumes, Viking Press
1969, one volume, Da Capo Press

Again, no historical information!


NYPL--The Schomburg Library was supposed to digitize most all of its collection before about 1930. That hasn't been done. There is a digital database called "The Africa-American Migration Experience." There is also a Digital Schomburg (http://www.nypl.org/research/sc/digital.html). "Swing low" produced no hits!


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 13 03:31:08 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:31:08 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Social Science"
In-Reply-To: <9831d780c2957c593562cc31fd0f1c45@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.223108.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

social science (OED 1811)

1796 Thelwall, John. Rights of nature, against the usurpations of
establishments. A series of letters to the people, in reply to the false
principles of Burke. 22 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  This
faint copyist, like his eccentric master, is an advocate for the
perpetuity of the old Gothic Customary; and, with all the admitted
improvements of social science, would fatter us to the institutions which,
twelve or fifteen hundred years ago, were fabricated, by ignorant savages,
in "the woods of Germany."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 13 03:39:20 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 22:39:20 -0500
Subject: Further Antedating of "Social Science"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502122228360.16588-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.12.FEB.2005.223920.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

social science (OED 1811)

1785 John Pinkerton _Letters of Literature_ 357 (Eighteenth Century
Collections Online)  IN Moral Philosophy and Social Science, these greatest
divisions of this grand part of knowlege, few or no advances have been
made.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Sun Feb 13 05:44:26 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:44:26 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=22Target=22?= as a French word?
In-Reply-To: <9d.574314ec.2f1c751a@cs.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.004426.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I doubt that WalMart will ever get a Frenchified pronunciation.  Target and
Penney's are wannabe stores, catering to the lower middle to midmiddle
folks, like a lot of us who can't afford Bon Marche or Saks or other upper
scale stores.  French is fashion, really good stuff.  Hence, the sardonic
pronunciation of the wannabe stores.

Jim Stalker, that's Stalcaire! as in Bucket, aka Bouquet.



Paul Zebe writes:

> Can anyone tell me about "Target" (the store) pronounced as a French word?
> That pronunciation has reportedly been used in the Nashville area within the
> past 10 years.  Could it be a joke played on a New England schoolmarm by her
> Southern students?
>
> Curiously,
> Paul Zebe
>



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Sun Feb 13 06:51:31 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:51:31 -0600
Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.005131.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've been doing some biographical research on the science fiction author Robert A. Heinlein.

The Evers quote below reminds me of his quote "You can't enslave a free man.  The most you can do is kill him."


Pg. 471:
You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.--Medgar Evans.


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Sun Feb 13 06:54:02 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:54:02 -0600
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.005402.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Shrimpers from the Gulf region seem to pronounce "shrimp" as "srimp".
IIR, even the movie "Forrest Gump" got this right.

>> Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
>> The same old rag man comin' this a-way.
>>
>> Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.
>
>swimp
>
>Shreveport (Louisiana) is often pronounced "Sweepo" in the local BE.
>(In Texas, we say "Sreepote."
>
>> Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
>> Raw, raw, raw.
>>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb 13 06:55:19 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 01:55:19 EST
Subject: TizzleTalk.com
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.015519.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A pop-up (thank goodness my AOL 9.0 blocks these things and works like a
charm) came up for TizzleTalk.com. it can translate your speech into American
different dialects, such as:
...
Ebonics
Redneck
Engrish
Dubya
Jessica
Arnold

ORIGINAL TEXT: now wait just one minute, i refuse to speak to  him

EBONICS: now wait just one minizzle, dog, I's refuse ta speak ta dat  dude
...
...
Sounds like great racist fun for the whole  family!


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb 13 08:39:31 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 03:39:31 EST
Subject: "A nought;s a naught, and a figger's a figger" (1911)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.033931.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

O.T.: That last post should have read "different American dialects," not
"American different dialects." I was in a tizzle.
...
...
"Documenting the American South" is a fine database from the University of
North Carolina-Chapel Hill. But how come it doesn't have "acka backa soda
cracker," I ask you?
...
A check for "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" reveals one collection of  songs...The
database did have this one:
...
...
_http://docsouth.unc.edu/pickens/pickens.html_
(http://docsouth.unc.edu/pickens/pickens.html)
...
THE HEIR OF SLAVES:
AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY
by William Pickens
Boston: The Pilgrim Press
1911

Page 26
than on the day of our arrival. And who could deny it? The white man did all
the reckoning. The negro did all the work. The negro can be robbed of
everything  but his humor, and in the bottom lands of Arkansas he has made a rhyme.
He says  that on settlement day the landowner sits down, takes up his pen and
reckons  thus:
"A  nought's a nought, and a figger's a figger -
All  fer de white man - none fer de nigger!"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb 13 10:00:19 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 05:00:19 EST
Subject: "Re-inventing the wheel" (1965)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.050019.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

REINVENT THE WHEEL--233,000 Google hits, 48,200 Google Groups hits
RE-INVENT THE WHEEL--109,000 Google hits, 26,100 Google Groups hits
...
...
ProQuest's back! And it looks like the Chicago Tribune is now at 1969, so
they've added one whole year!
...
"Reinvent the wheel" seems old-hat now, but it doesn't appear to date
further back than the 1960s. OED added this entry in September 2003, so we
shouldn't be able to beat it using the ProQuest New York Times that was out  then.
ProQuest can get a little tricky; "re-invent" and "re-inventing" have  different
hits.
...
...
(OED)
DRAFT ADDITIONS SEPTEMBER 2003

<NOBvent, v.
to reinvent the wheel: to recreate something  that already exists, esp. at
the expense of unnecessary time and effort; to  repeat effort needlessly.

1967 Times 27 Jan. 9/3 (advt.) We are not out to do a technological
equivalent of re-inventing  the wheel.
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_Other  16 -- No Title_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=106993425&SrchMode=1&sid=11&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108287287&
clientId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current  file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 13, 1965. p. X20 (1
page)
...
Thursday
10:30 (13) SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING TV JOURNAL "How to Succeed Without
Re-Inventing the Wheel"
...
...
_Television_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=97211245&SrchMode=1&sid=12&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108287522&clientId=658
82)
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 17,  1965. p. 67 (1
page)
...
10:30 (13) SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING TV JOURNAL: "How to Succeed Without
Re-Inventing the Wheel"
...


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 13 10:44:27 2005
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:44:27 -0800
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <9831d780c2957c593562cc31fd0f1c45@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.024427.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I learned it as "Old Dan Tucker was a _mean_ old man."


> Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man,
> Washed his face in a fryin' pan,
> Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
> Died with the toothache in his heel.
>
 And the chorus as, "Get out the way, old Dan Tucker/You're too late to stay for supper/Supper's over, breakfast cookin'/Old Dan Tucker stand there lookin'.

Margaret L.


Get out of the way of old Dan Tucker
Too late to get his supper
Supper's over and dinner's cookin'
Old Dan Tucker just standin' there lookin'

Wilson, just wondering





---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo!


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb 13 12:09:22 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 07:09:22 EST
Subject: "You can kill a man, but not an idea" (1949) and more
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.070922.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here are some of the black folklore terms against ProQuest...The  Chicago
Tribune is at 1959, not 1969.
...
...
...
...
_AUTO  WORKERS ASK CIO: OUST LEFT-WINGERS; Chicagoan Loses Fight on
Resolution _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=489446162&SrchMode=1&sid=24&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108289671&clientId=65882)
GEORGE HARTMANN. Chicago  Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 12,
1949. p. 6 (1 page)
...
"You can kill a man with a 12 gauge shotgun," he (Walter Reuther--ed.)  said,
"but you can't kill an idea. The UAW isn't a personal thing. It is an
ideal--it will carry on. We are more determined than ever that the fight of our
union will carry on."
...
...
...
_KING'S  BRAVEST HERE; Honorable Artillery of London Seeing the Capital.
ESCORTED UP THE  AVENUE English Organization and Their Boston Kindred Met by Troop
of Regulars  and the Minutemen of This City -- Earl Denbigh at Head of His
Command --  Reception at White House To-day. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=259551062&SrchMode=1&sid=52&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNam
e=HNP&TS=1108291528&clientId=65882)
The Washington  Post. Oct 10, 1903. p. 2 (1 page)
...
The Englishmen have already got a war cry. The words are set to the tune of
a comic opera air, and when the band strikes on the air, the whole company
sung  "Any rags, any bones, any bottles: the same old story in the same old way."
They  sang this with evident enjoyment over and over again.
...
...
_"Any  Rags, Bones, Bottles, Today?"; It Is Hardly Possible That the Cry of
the Ragman  Should Suggest to the Layman the Systematized Commerce in Trash or
the  Scientific Utilization of Garbage Now Practiced by the Capital -- But
That Is  What We Have Come to -- Read the Facts and Be Glad of It. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=247275782&SrchMode=1&sid=52&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&V
Type=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108291528&clientId=65882)
By DAVID RANKIN BARBEE. The Washington  Post. Aug 11, 1929. p. SM6 (2 pages)
...
...
_"ANY  RAGS, ANY BONES, ANY BOTTLES TODAY?"_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=5&did=399212251&SrchMode=1&sid=52&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNa
me=HNP&TS=1108291528&clientId=65882)
Los Angeles Times  (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 27, 1938. p.
11 (1 page)
...
...
...
_A  LINE O' TYPE OR TWO_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=359416212&SrchMode=1&sid=54&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108292020
&clientId=65882)
Chicago Daily Tribune  (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 5, 1921. p. 8 (1 page)
...
A FEW heart-throbs from the autograph album:

I wish you luck, I wish you joy,
I wish you then a baby boy,
And when his hair begins to curl,
I wish you then a baby girl.
JULIA RAYMER.
...
...
...
_THE  MODERN ALMANAC_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=509165402&SrchMode=1&sid=57&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108292380&cl
ientId=65882)
Herb Daniels. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 27,
1956. p. H4 (1 page)
...
Autograph books, you'll be delighted to know, endureth forever with small
fry. WIth school's impending end, there suddenly is born a bittersweet knowledge
 of time's flight and a compulsion to capture the happy _now_.

Then autograph books appear as suddenly as a hatch of fluttering
butterflies. Now, as in our day, it is not enough to sign the book. You pick a  favorite
color page, write a verse of comment, _then_ sign.

Remember: _Roses are red,/ Violets are blue,/ A face like yours' Belongs in
a zoo_!? Or: _Roses are red,/ Tar is black,/ If I had a knife/ It would be in
your back_!

Advice may accompany autographs: _Don't make love on the garden gate. /  Love
is blind, but the neighbors ain't_!
...
...
...
_It's  Slangy, Slurry and Fast; SIDEWALKS OF AMERICA: Folklore, Legends,
Sagas,  Traditions, Customs, Songs, Stories and Sayings of City Folk. Edited by B.
A.  Botkin. Illustrated with drawings. 605 pp. Indianapolis and New York: The
 Bobbs-Merrill Company. $5.95. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=96513532&SrchMode=1&sid=64&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110
8293118&clientId=65882)
By HORACE  REYNOLDS. New York Times (1857-Current. Dec 5,  1954. p. BR50 (1
page)
...
When it leaves the open air, it often goes into something sordid and seamy:
the tawny burlesque house, to learn the origin of the strip tease; the
honky-tonk, to hear, "If you don't like my peaches, don't shake my tree"; the
employment houses on Skid Row to overhear a bum talking to his buddy about  hiring
out as a gandy-dancer.
...
...
...
_AMERICA'S  FOLK SONGS_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=96928048&SrchMode=1&sid=93&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108295683&c
lientId=65882)
By ELIE SIEGMEISTER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb
11,  1940. p. 133 (1 page)
...
I've been a moonshiner for seventeen long years,
I've spent all my money on whisky and beers.
...
I'll go to some holler, I'll pick up my still,
I'll make you one gallon for a two-dollar bill.
...
I'll go to some grocery and drink with my friends,
No woman to follow to see what I spends.
...
God bless those pretty women, I wish they were mine;
Their breath smells as sweet as the dew on the vine.
...
I'll eat when I'm hungry and drink when I'm dry,
If moonshine don't kill me, I'll live till I die.
...
God bless those moonshiners. I wish they were mine.
Their breath smells as sweet as the good old moonshine.
...
...
...
_Other  8 -- No Title_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=462914702&SrchMode=1&sid=96&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&V
Type=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108296175&clientId=65882)
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963).  Chicago, Ill.: Feb 12, 1946. p. 16 (1
page)
...
3. "God don't like ugly," is a common remark of Negroes in Charleston, S.
C., to indicate that God dislikes
Homeliness  Wickedness  Dirt  Liquor

ANSWERS
3. Wickedness.


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Sun Feb 13 19:55:09 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:55:09 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <20050213050055.4A159B24F4@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.145509.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson inquires:
>>>>
> Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man,
> Washed his face in a fryin' pan,
> Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
> Died with the toothache in his heel.
>
>           ---Old Minstrel Song, "Old Dan Tucker"
>
> JL

Is this the same song that has the verse (or chorus?):

Get out of the way of old Dan Tucker
Too late to get his supper
Supper's over and dinner's cookin'
Old Dan Tucker just standin' there lookin'

Wilson, just wondering
<<<<

Yup. (Though I learned it with "breakfast" instead of "dinner".)

"Get out (of) the way..." is the chorus. It has a different tune. I don't
remember any other verses than the one given here.

I've also seen it with the chorus ending:

"Supper's over and the dishes washed,
Nothing left but a piece of squash."

mark by hand


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 13 19:56:33 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 14:56:33 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <20050213145314.F51145@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.145633.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mark A. Mandel wrote:
> Wilson inquires:
>
>>Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man,
>>Washed his face in a fryin' pan,
>>Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
>>Died with the toothache in his heel.
>>
>>          ---Old Minstrel Song, "Old Dan Tucker"
>>
>>JL
>
>
> Is this the same song that has the verse (or chorus?):
>
> Get out of the way of old Dan Tucker
> Too late to get his supper
> Supper's over and dinner's cookin'
> Old Dan Tucker just standin' there lookin'
>
> Wilson, just wondering
> <<<<
>
> Yup. (Though I learned it with "breakfast" instead of "dinner".)

Aha...somebody else for whom "dinner" and "supper" can refer to the same
meal!

Alice Faber


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 13 21:03:20 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:03:20 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <3rjp4a$7kp5ij@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.160320.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you. I was confused by the term, "old minstrel song." When I was
a pre-adolescent, ODT was one of my most favoritest songs, in the
version sung by Burl (sp? In my day, this was quite a popular name
among black males, with many spelling variations, such as "Berl,
"Beryl," "Burrell," etc.) Ives, so I've always thought of it as a
folksong and yes, even back in those pre-TV days, I knew that Ives was
white.

FWIW, I'm reminded that I read somewhere that "Antoine" is currently
the most common name among black professional football players and that
it's spelled over 27 different ways.

-Wilson

On Feb 13, 2005, at 2:55 PM, Mark A. Mandel wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mark A. Mandel" <mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: American Negro Folklore (1968)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson inquires:
>>>>>
>> Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man,
>> Washed his face in a fryin' pan,
>> Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
>> Died with the toothache in his heel.
>>
>>           ---Old Minstrel Song, "Old Dan Tucker"
>>
>> JL
>
> Is this the same song that has the verse (or chorus?):
>
> Get out of the way of old Dan Tucker
> Too late to get his supper
> Supper's over and dinner's cookin'
> Old Dan Tucker just standin' there lookin'
>
> Wilson, just wondering
> <<<<
>
> Yup. (Though I learned it with "breakfast" instead of "dinner".)
>
> "Get out (of) the way..." is the chorus. It has a different tune. I
> don't
> remember any other verses than the one given here.
>
> I've also seen it with the chorus ending:
>
> "Supper's over and the dishes washed,
> Nothing left but a piece of squash."
>
> mark by hand
>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Sun Feb 13 21:04:29 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:04:29 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <420FB0F1.2080903@haskins.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.160429.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 02:56 PM 2/13/2005, you wrote:
>Mark A. Mandel wrote:
>>Wilson inquires:
>>
>>>Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man,
>>>Washed his face in a fryin' pan,
>>>Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
>>>Died with the toothache in his heel.
>>>
>>>          ---Old Minstrel Song, "Old Dan Tucker"
>>>
>>>JL
>>
>>
>>Is this the same song that has the verse (or chorus?):
>>
>>Get out of the way of old Dan Tucker
>>Too late to get his supper
>>Supper's over and dinner's cookin'
>>Old Dan Tucker just standin' there lookin'
>>
>>Wilson, just wondering
>><<<<
>>
>>Yup. (Though I learned it with "breakfast" instead of "dinner".)
>
>Aha...somebody else for whom "dinner" and "supper" can refer to the same
>meal!
>
>Alice Faber

Me too--unless, as in my childhood, dinner was the noonday meal, in which
case Dan would have to wait all the way from supper one night until noon
the next day.

But for the prosody (not that that might have mattered to some singers), I
always said (and heard) "He's too late ..." and "... just stands there
lookin'."  He was also mean, not fine.  Toothache also doesn't ring a
bell--bullet, maybe?


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 13 21:15:39 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:15:39 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <E1D0Df5-0004ps-00@mx05.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.161539.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You know, for years I've wondered why it is that, even though it's
spelled correctly, so many people mispronounce the name of Sri Lanka as
"Shree" Lanka instead of as "Sree" Lanka.

-Wilson <just kidding>

On Feb 13, 2005, at 1:54 AM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject:      Re: American Negro Folklore (1968)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Shrimpers from the Gulf region seem to pronounce "shrimp" as "srimp".
> IIR, even the movie "Forrest Gump" got this right.
>
>>> Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
>>> The same old rag man comin' this a-way.
>>>
>>> Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.
>>
>> swimp
>>
>> Shreveport (Louisiana) is often pronounced "Sweepo" in the local BE.
>> (In Texas, we say "Sreepote.")
>>
>>> Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
>>> Raw, raw, raw.
>>>
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 13 21:44:18 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:44:18 -0500
Subject: "Re-inventing the wheel" (1965)
In-Reply-To: <E1D0GYC-0005Ay-00@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.164418.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 13, 2005, at 5:00 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> 1967 Times 27 Jan. 9/3 (advt.) We are not out to do a

> _technological equivalent of re-inventing the wheel_.

Isn't the wheel an example of technology?

-Wilson

> ...
> ...
> (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
> ...
> _Other  16 -- No Title_
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=0&did=106993425&SrchMode=1&sid=11&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT
> =309&VName=HNP&TS=1108287287&
> clientId=65882)
> New York Times (1857-Current  file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 13, 1965. p.
> X20 (1
> page)
> ...
> Thursday
> 10:30 (13) SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING TV JOURNAL "How to Succeed Without
> Re-Inventing the Wheel"
> ...
> ...
> _Television_
> (http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?
> index=1&did=97211245&SrchMode=1&sid=12&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=
> 309&VName=HNP&TS=1108287522&clientId=658
> 82)
> New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 17,  1965. p.
> 67 (1
> page)
> ...
> 10:30 (13) SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING TV JOURNAL: "How to Succeed Without
> Re-Inventing the Wheel"
> ...
>


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sun Feb 13 21:50:01 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:50:01 -0600
Subject: railroad slang: "on the cat hop" (right on time)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.155001.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   I've been asked by a history professor  about an expression he came across in his research on the railroads: "on the cat hop" (right on time), e.g., "The freight train left on the cat hop."

    I don't have OED or DARE handy, and so maybe "cat hop" appears there.
But in any case I don't find it in HDAS or Casell's Dictionary of Slang.
Would anyone in ads-l be familiar with this term and how it came to mean "right on time"?

Gerald Cohen


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Sun Feb 13 21:50:02 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 16:50:02 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <b09a8f53c4a4e8d0f47408a46b156ce1@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.165002.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For years I tried hard to say "Sree," until a student from there told me
it's actually "Shree."  So much for trying to be politically correct.

At 04:15 PM 2/13/2005, you wrote:
>You know, for years I've wondered why it is that, even though it's
>spelled correctly, so many people mispronounce the name of Sri Lanka as
>"Shree" Lanka instead of as "Sree" Lanka.
>
>-Wilson <just kidding>
>
>On Feb 13, 2005, at 1:54 AM, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
>>Subject:      Re: American Negro Folklore (1968)
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>Shrimpers from the Gulf region seem to pronounce "shrimp" as "srimp".
>>IIR, even the movie "Forrest Gump" got this right.
>>
>>>>Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
>>>>The same old rag man comin' this a-way.
>>>>
>>>>Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.
>>>
>>>swimp
>>>
>>>Shreveport (Louisiana) is often pronounced "Sweepo" in the local BE.
>>>(In Texas, we say "Sreepote.")
>>>
>>>>Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
>>>>Raw, raw, raw.


From mthom at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 13 23:07:15 2005
From: mthom at RCN.COM (Maggie Thompson)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 18:07:15 -0500
Subject: children's chants--Rise SAlly
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.180715.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember from my grade-school days (1948-54) a playground game that
featured the chant about "Sally."  The kids formed a circle, "Sally"
crouched in the middle, and the circle kids chanted:

little Sally Ann
Sitting in the sand
Crying, crying,
For a young man.

(the kid playing "Sally" would pretend to cry)

Rise, Sally, rise
Wipe your crying eyes.
Turn to the east and
Turn to the west and
Turn to the one that
You love best.

("Sally" would act this out, pick another kid, who then went into the middle
and it all started over.)

There may have been more to this, but I don't remember it.  I grew up in
Elizabeth, PA, about 15 miles from Pittsburgh, by the way.

Maggie Thompson


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 13 23:30:01 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:30:01 -0800
Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.153001.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"What I mean, jelly-bean!"  NYC white kids, 1959.

"Gettin' more ass than a toilet seat."  In movie The Deer Hunter (1979), cited in HDAS.

"So skinny, when she cries the tears run down her back."  Kingston, NY, white kid, ca1970.

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: African American Folklore (2002)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 12, 2005, at 2:47 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Even "I must develop my bust" is here!...ProQuest is down right now,
> so I'll search these with Newspaperarchive.

"I must develop my bust"?!!! Well, after a half-century of
desegregation and contamination, what can one expect?

More random stuff below.

-Wilson Gray

>
>
> FROM MY PEOPLE:
> 400 YEARS OF AFICAN AMERICAN FOLKLORE
> edited by Caryl Cumber Dance
> New York: W. W. Norton
> 2002
>
> Pg. 470 (Aphorisms and Other Proverbial Sayings):
> God don't like ugly.
> Hard head, soft behind.
>
> Pg. 471:
> You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.--Medgar Evans.
>
> Pg. 480:
> _I'll Eat Hen I'm Hungry_
> From Thomas W. Talley, _Negro Folk Rhymes_
>
> I'll eat when I'se hungry,
> An' I'll rink when I'se dry;
> An' if de whitefolks don't kill me,
> I'll live till I die.
>
> In my liddle log cabin,
> Ever since I've been born;
> Dere hain't been no nothin'
> 'Cept dat hard salt parch corn.
> Pg. 481:
> But I knows what's a henhouse,
> An' de tucky he charve;
> An' if old Mosser don't kill me,
> I cain't never starve.
>
> _Aught's a Aughts_
> Traditional
>
> An aught's a aught and a figger's a figger;
> All for the white folks and none for the nigger.
>
> Pg. 509:
> _Hambone, Hambone_
> This traditional clapping game may be played with a partner or one
> indiv,; slap his thigh as he recites. Additional lines may be
> improvised.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, where you been?
> Round the world and back again.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, what'd you do?
> I got a train and I fairly flew.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, where'd you stay?
> I met a pretty girl and I couldn't get away.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, where'd you go?
> I hopped up to Miss Lucy's door.
>
> Hambone, Hambone, what's you see?
> I asked Miss Lucy to marry me.
>
> Pg. 511:
> _We Must, We Must, We Must_
> From Daryl Cumber Dance, _Honey, Hush!_
> WHen I recorded this verse on May 21, 1995, the singer told me she
> learned it in gym class in the 1950s, but as she sang a younger woman
> joined her, suggesting that it has passed on to the next generation.
>
> We must, we must, we must,
> We must develop our bust.
>
> We must, we must, we must,
> We must develop our bust.
>
> The bigger the better,
> The tighter the sweater.
> The boys are depending on us.
>
> Pg. 526 (Autograph Album Rhymes, from J. Mason Brewer, _Worser Days
> and Better Times_):
> Love all, trust few;
> Learn to paddle your own canoe.
>
> Pg. 527:
> When you marry and get out of shape,
> Get you a girdle for $2.98.
>
> The Mississippi River is deep and wide;
> Catch an alligator to the other side.
>
> Girls are made of sugar and spice;
> Boys aren't made, they just shoot dice.
>
> When you get old and think you're sweet,
> Take off your shoes, and smell your feet.
>
> I wish you luck, I wish you joy,
> I wish you first a baby boy;
> And when his hair beings to curl,
> I wish you next a baby girl;
> And when her hair begins to knot,
> I guess you know it's time to stop.
>
> Ice cream city, candy state,
> This sweet letter don't need no date.
>
> Up on a house top, baking a cake,
> The way I love you is no mistake.
>
> Pg. 528:
> I don't make love by the garden gate,
> For love is blind, but the neighbors ain't.
>
> I've got a cute little shape, and a pretty little figure;
> Stand back, big boys, until I get a little bigger!
>
> I love you once, I love you twice;
> Baby, I love you next to Jesus Christ.

I love you so much that I'd kill a brick for you.

>
> Milk is milk, cheese is cheese;
> What is a kiss without a squeeze?
>
> You're my morning milk, my evening cream,
> My all-day study, and my midnight dream.
>
> Roses on my shoulders, slippers on my feet;
> I'm my mother's baby, don't you think I'm sweet?
>
> Apples on the shelf, peaches in the bowl,
> Can't get a sweetheart to save my soul.
>
> Up on the mountain, five feet high,
> I love you, baby, that ain't no lie.
>
> Pg. 529:
> When you get married and have twenty-four,
> Don't stop there, the Army needs lots more.
>
> When you get married and your husband gets drunk,
> Put him in the trunk and sell him for junk.
>
> When you get married and have twenty-five,
> Daon't call it a family, call it a tribe!
>
> The river is wide, the boat is floating,
> Darling, let's marry and stop this courting!
>
> Ice is ice, rice is rice;
> One day, baby, you'll be my wife.
>
> Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
> Baby, I'm getting tired of sleeping by myself.
>
> When you get married and live in China,
> Rememeber me back in old North Carolina.
>
> Life is sweet, life is swell,
> But when you marry, life is hell.
>
> When you marry and live across the lake,
> Send me a kiss by a rattlesnake.
>
> When you get married and live upstairs,
> DOn't fall down putting on airs.
>
> When you marry don't marry a cook,
> Marry a man with a fat pocketbook.
>
> When you marry and live across the sea,
> Send me a cocoanut C.O.D.
>
> Lions in the cage, monkeys in the zoo,
> Who wants to marry a fool like you?
>
> Pg. 530:
> If you don't like my apples, don't shake my tree;

You're the cutest thing that I did ever see.
I really love your peaches. Gonna shake your tree.

If you don't like my peaches, don't you shake my tree.

> I ain't after your man, he's after me.
>
> When you get married and live out west,
> I'll send your mail by the Jigger express.
>
> Pg. 531 (Rhymes and Brags from Muhammad Ali, formerly Cassius Clay)
> I'm so mean, I make medicine sick.--Neil Leifer and Thomas Hauser,
> _Muhammad Ali Memories_
>
> Pg. 549:
> _More Dozens_
> Because the dozens is such an obscene exchange, no attempt is made to
> reproduce a game here. Rather I present some carefully chosen standard
> lines from the game.
>
> Yo' mama's like a bag of chips. She free to lay.
> Yo' mama's so dumb she tripped over a cordless phone.
> Yo' mama's so stupid it takes her two hours to watch _60 Minutes_.
> Yo' mama's so dumb she thought she could send a voice mail by
> screaming into a envelope.
> Yo' mama's so bald she gets brainwashed when she takes a shower.
>
> Pg. 550:
> Yo' mama's in the kitchen; yo' daddy's in jail;
> yo' sister on de corner offering it for sale.
>
> _Insults_
>
> Happy birthday to you,
> You belong in a zoo.
> You look like a monkey,
> And smell like one too!
>
> My name is Ran,
> I work in the sand;
> I'd rather be a nigger
> Than a poor White man.
>
> White folks think they fine,
> But their raggedy drawers stink just like mine.
>
> He is so ugly he has to _sneak_ up on a mirror.

He's two shades darker than Bell's telephone. (clearly older than
"black is beautiful" and the break-up of Ma Bell.)

He's of Indian descent: Choctaw. The lightest [sc. shade of skin in
his family] is chocolate; the darkest is tar.

He's so ugly that, when he cries, the tears roll down the back of
his head.

He's so ugly that it looks like he's been in an ax fight and
everybody had an ax but him.

>
> Pg. 551:
> At least my mama ain't no doorknob,
> Everybody get a turn.
>
> Least my mama ain't no railroad track,
> Lay out all over the country.
>
> _Retorts_
>
> Tell the truth, snaggle tooth.
> What you mean, jelly bean?

See what I mean, jelly bean?
You heard what I said, nappy head.
Step out on the patio, daddy-o.
Make like Ezzard and hit the desert.
>
> Pg. 552:
> See you later, Alligator.
> After while, Crocodile.
>
> I dig all jive.
> That's the reason I stay alive.
>
> Your eyes may shine, your teeth may grit,
> But none of this food will you git.

Baby, I'm 500% more man.
I lay more pipe than a plumber can.

After I take a leak, I don't shake it off.
I take my left foot and kick it off.

She got mo' ass than a toilet seat. (Said in response to the
previous observation) Better mo' ass than no ass.

>
>
> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
> Charleroi Mail Friday, December 01, 1950 Charleroi, Pennsylvania
> ...Wilson in v.luch eyes MAY YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. Hut none of my money
> Will you.....sides arc still alking indicates there MAY be scTine ope
> left. When Girl Portia..
>
> Daily Register Saturday, December 23, 1950 Harrisburg, Illinois
> ...her: "YOUR eyes MAY shine. YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. But none of my
> money Will you.....a Merry a New Year Holland's HOLIDAY MAY YOUR
> Holiday Cheer go on and on REES..
>
>
> Edwardsville Intelligencer Wednesday, July 08, 1964 Edwardsville,
> Illinois
> ...you DON'T want MY peaches, DON'T SHAKE MY TREE. When you saw a
> red-haired girl.....Neutral IS A Nice GearBut DON'T You Have Any
> GOLDWATER--ATRAGEDY..
>
>
> Lancaster Eagle Gazette Thursday, July 18, 1974 Lancaster, Ohio
> ...a brick. I'm so mean I MAKE MEDICINE SICK. The occasion for
> Ali's.....now than ever before which could MAKE up for some parts .of
> my game that..
>
>
> Mountain Democrat Friday, February 17, 1989 Placerville, California
> ...I wIsh YOU luck, I wIsh YOU JOY, "I wIsh YOU fIrst a BABY BOY. "AND
> when hIs.....haIr begIns to curl, I wIsh YOU then a BABY gIrl. AND
> when her..
>
>
>
> Post Standard Friday, August 23, 1991 Syracuse, New York
> ...comment on that situation and I 'GOD DOESN'T LIKE UGLY. He'll
> handle the.....coming. He is such a strong Peters DOESN'T have to be
> con- vinced of Seals..
>
> Post Standard Sunday, March 19, 2000 Syracuse, New York
> ...to the public. For more 435-2155. 'GOD DON'T LIKE UGLY' An
> inspirational gospel.....musi- DON'T LIKE comes to the Landmark 362
> S..
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 13 23:33:06 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:33:06 -0800
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.153306.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yup, that's it.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: American Negro Folklore (1968)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 12, 2005, at 5:41 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: American Negro Folklore (1968)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Jawbone walk, jawbone talk,
> Jawbone eat with a knife and fork.
> ---Old Minstrel Song
>
>
> Mama's in the kitchen,
> Papa's in jail.
> Sister's on the corner,
> Yellin' "Pussy for sale!"
>
> ---From a song called "Alley Boogie," sung on the march by
> U.S. Marines in New Zealand in WW II.
>
> Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man,
> Washed his face in a fryin' pan,
> Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
> Died with the toothache in his heel.
>
> ---Old Minstrel Song, "Old Dan Tucker"
>
> JL

Is this the same song that has the verse (or chorus?):

Get out of the way of old Dan Tucker
Too late to get his supper
Supper's over and dinner's cookin'
Old Dan Tucker just standin' there lookin'

Wilson, just wondering

>
>
> Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Hawkins," "made in de shade, sold in de sun," and others of interest
> here.
>
>
> AMERICAN NEGRO FOLKLORE
> by J. Mason Brewer
> Chicago: Quadrangle Books
> 1968
>
> Pg. 189 (Slave Seculars and Work Songs):
> _I Went to Atlanta_
>
> I Went to Atlanta
> Never been dere a-fo'
> White folks eat de apple
> Nigger wait fo' co'
>
> (Other verses are "White folks sleep on feather bed" and "White folks
> wear de fancy suit" and "White folks sit in Lawd's place"--ed.)
>
> Pg. 304 (Cold Weather Signs): If turkeys roost high in a tree, it's a
> sign of cold weather. You will hear the old folks say, "Look out,
> children. Hawkins is coming."
>
> Pg. 323 (Creole Proverbs):
> Great to speak, little to do.
> One goes everywhere with fine clothes.
> Ox who comes first always drinks clear water.
> Pg. 324:
> That is not the baptism of a doll. (No laughing matter.)
> When the tree falls the goat climbs it.
> The best swimmer is often drowned.
> When one is very hungry one does not peel the sweet potato.
> His tongue knows no Sunday.
> I keep nothing hidden in the sideboard. (I keep nothing back.)
> Set your type before you go and then read it. (Have on your tongue
> what you are going to say.)
>
> Pg. 338 ("Dirty Dozens" Rhymes):
> Yo' mama's in de kitchen; yo' papa's in jail;
> Yo' sister's round de corner, hollerin' "Hot stuff for sale."
>
> Pg. 339 (Street Cries):
> I sell to the rich,
> I sell to the po';
> I'm gonna sell the lady
> Standin' in that do'.
>
> I got water with the melon, red to the rind!
> If you don't believe it just pull down your blind.
> You eat the watermelon and preee-serve the rind!
>
> Pg. 340:
> We sell it to the rich, we sell it to the poor,
> We give it to the sweet brownskin, peepin' out the door.
> _Tout chaud, Madame, tout chaud!_
> Git 'em while they're hot. Hot _calas_!
>
> The Waffle Man is a fine old man.
> He washes his face in a frying-pan.
> He makes his waffles with his hand.
> Everybody loved the waffle man.
>
> Char-coal! Char-coal!
> My horse is white, my face is black.
> I sell my charcoal, two-bits a sack--
> Char-coal! Char-coal!
>
> Pg. 342:
> Porgy walk; Porgy talk,
> Porgy eat wid a knife an' fork;
> Porgy-e-e-e-!
>
> Vanilla, chocolate, peach cream
> Dat surely freezed by de stream.
> It was made in de shade, an' is sold in de sun.
> If you ain't got a nickel, you can't get none.
>
> Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
> The same old rag man comin' this a-way.
>
> Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.
> Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
> Raw, raw, raw.
>
> Pg. 343 (Jeering and Taunting Rhymes):
> A bushel o' wheat, a bushel o' san',
> Ah'd rather be a nigger than a po' white man.
>
> You bowlegged, lazy,
> An' almo' half crazy.
>
> Pg. 367 (Autograph Album Rhymes):
> You can kiss beneath a grapevine, you can kiss beneath the rose,
> But the best place I know of is to kiss beneath the nose.
>
> Pg. 368:
> Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
> If you don't love nobody, keep it to yourself.
>
> Up the hickory, an' down the pine;
> Good-looking boys is hard to find.
>
> Sugar is sweet, an' coffee is strong;
> Write me a letter, and don't be long.
>
> It takes a rocking chair to rock,
> A rubber ball to roll,
> A tall, skinny papa
> To satisfy my soul.
>
> Orange is a city, Lemon is a state;
> I wrote you a letter, but I forgot de date.
>
> Pg. 369:
> My papa is a butcher,
> My mama cuts de meat.
> Ah'm de little weiner-wish
> Dat runs around destreet.
>
> If the ocean was milk, and the bottom was cream,
> I'd dive for you like a submarine.
>
> Cream cheese, cream cheese floatin' in the air,
> That bald-headed man ain't got no hair.
>
> Pg. 373 (Ring-Game Songs):
> Ooka dooka soda cracker,
> Does your father chew tobacco?
> Yes, my father chews tobacco.
> Ooka dooka soda cracker.
>
>
> Copy cat, copy cat, sittin' on duh fence,
> Trying' tuh make a dollar out o' fifteen cents.
>
>
> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
> Trenton Times Monday, October 17, 1904 Trenton, New Jersey
> ...of whioti starts off with "ANY RAGS, ANY BONES, ANY bottles today."
> Of course.....Fred Barlow, asked, "Have you ANY rags today''" H
> happened that Just..
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 13 23:41:58 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:41:58 -0800
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.154158.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Many Southerners, regardless of race, say "srimp."  "Slitz' for "Schlitz" used to be common. (Dr. Laura) Schlessinger is always "Slessinger."

JL

"Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: American Negro Folklore (1968)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shrimpers from the Gulf region seem to pronounce "shrimp" as "srimp".
IIR, even the movie "Forrest Gump" got this right.

>> Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
>> The same old rag man comin' this a-way.
>>
>> Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.
>
>swimp
>
>Shreveport (Louisiana) is often pronounced "Sweepo" in the local BE.
>(In Texas, we say "Sreepote."
>
>> Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
>> Raw, raw, raw.
>>


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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 13 23:48:32 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 15:48:32 -0800
Subject: "You can kill a man, but not an idea" (1949) and more
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.154832.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"I've been a moonshiner for seventeen long years..."

Entire song is in Carl Sandburg's "American Songbag" (1927). It has been recorded several times.

JL

Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: "You can kill a man, but not an idea" (1949) and more
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are some of the black folklore terms against ProQuest...The Chicago
Tribune is at 1959, not 1969.
...
...
...
...
_AUTO WORKERS ASK CIO: OUST LEFT-WINGERS; Chicagoan Loses Fight on
Resolution _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=489446162&SrchMode=1&sid=24&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108289671&clientId=65882)
GEORGE HARTMANN. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jul 12,
1949. p. 6 (1 page)
...
"You can kill a man with a 12 gauge shotgun," he (Walter Reuther--ed.) said,
"but you can't kill an idea. The UAW isn't a personal thing. It is an
ideal--it will carry on. We are more determined than ever that the fight of our
union will carry on."
...
...
...
_KING'S BRAVEST HERE; Honorable Artillery of London Seeing the Capital.
ESCORTED UP THE AVENUE English Organization and Their Boston Kindred Met by Troop
of Regulars and the Minutemen of This City -- Earl Denbigh at Head of His
Command -- Reception at White House To-day. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=259551062&SrchMode=1&sid=52&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNam
e=HNP&TS=1108291528&clientId=65882)
The Washington Post. Oct 10, 1903. p. 2 (1 page)
...
The Englishmen have already got a war cry. The words are set to the tune of
a comic opera air, and when the band strikes on the air, the whole company
sung "Any rags, any bones, any bottles: the same old story in the same old way."
They sang this with evident enjoyment over and over again.
...
...
_"Any Rags, Bones, Bottles, Today?"; It Is Hardly Possible That the Cry of
the Ragman Should Suggest to the Layman the Systematized Commerce in Trash or
the Scientific Utilization of Garbage Now Practiced by the Capital -- But
That Is What We Have Come to -- Read the Facts and Be Glad of It. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=4&did=247275782&SrchMode=1&sid=52&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&V
Type=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108291528&clientId=65882)
By DAVID RANKIN BARBEE. The Washington Post. Aug 11, 1929. p. SM6 (2 pages)
...
...
_"ANY RAGS, ANY BONES, ANY BOTTLES TODAY?"_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=5&did=399212251&SrchMode=1&sid=52&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VNa
me=HNP&TS=1108291528&clientId=65882)
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 27, 1938. p.
11 (1 page)
...
...
...
_A LINE O' TYPE OR TWO_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=359416212&SrchMode=1&sid=54&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108292020
&clientId=65882)
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Dec 5, 1921. p. 8 (1 page)
...
A FEW heart-throbs from the autograph album:

I wish you luck, I wish you joy,
I wish you then a baby boy,
And when his hair begins to curl,
I wish you then a baby girl.
JULIA RAYMER.
...
...
...
_THE MODERN ALMANAC_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=509165402&SrchMode=1&sid=57&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108292380&cl
ientId=65882)
Herb Daniels. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: May 27,
1956. p. H4 (1 page)
...
Autograph books, you'll be delighted to know, endureth forever with small
fry. WIth school's impending end, there suddenly is born a bittersweet knowledge
of time's flight and a compulsion to capture the happy _now_.

Then autograph books appear as suddenly as a hatch of fluttering
butterflies. Now, as in our day, it is not enough to sign the book. You pick a favorite
color page, write a verse of comment, _then_ sign.

Remember: _Roses are red,/ Violets are blue,/ A face like yours' Belongs in
a zoo_!? Or: _Roses are red,/ Tar is black,/ If I had a knife/ It would be in
your back_!

Advice may accompany autographs: _Don't make love on the garden gate. / Love
is blind, but the neighbors ain't_!
...
...
...
_It's Slangy, Slurry and Fast; SIDEWALKS OF AMERICA: Folklore, Legends,
Sagas, Traditions, Customs, Songs, Stories and Sayings of City Folk. Edited by B.
A. Botkin. Illustrated with drawings. 605 pp. Indianapolis and New York: The
Bobbs-Merrill Company. $5.95. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=96513532&SrchMode=1&sid=64&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110
8293118&clientId=65882)
By HORACE REYNOLDS. New York Times (1857-Current. Dec 5, 1954. p. BR50 (1
page)
...
When it leaves the open air, it often goes into something sordid and seamy:
the tawny burlesque house, to learn the origin of the strip tease; the
honky-tonk, to hear, "If you don't like my peaches, don't shake my tree"; the
employment houses on Skid Row to overhear a bum talking to his buddy about hiring
out as a gandy-dancer.
...
...
...
_AMERICA'S FOLK SONGS_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=96928048&SrchMode=1&sid=93&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108295683&c
lientId=65882)
By ELIE SIEGMEISTER. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb
11, 1940. p. 133 (1 page)
...
I've been a moonshiner for seventeen long years,
I've spent all my money on whisky and beers.
...
I'll go to some holler, I'll pick up my still,
I'll make you one gallon for a two-dollar bill.
...
I'll go to some grocery and drink with my friends,
No woman to follow to see what I spends.
...
God bless those pretty women, I wish they were mine;
Their breath smells as sweet as the dew on the vine.
...
I'll eat when I'm hungry and drink when I'm dry,
If moonshine don't kill me, I'll live till I die.
...
God bless those moonshiners. I wish they were mine.
Their breath smells as sweet as the good old moonshine.
...
...
...
_Other 8 -- No Title_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=462914702&SrchMode=1&sid=96&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&V
Type=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108296175&clientId=65882)
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Feb 12, 1946. p. 16 (1
page)
...
3. "God don't like ugly," is a common remark of Negroes in Charleston, S.
C., to indicate that God dislikes
Homeliness Wickedness Dirt Liquor

ANSWERS
3. Wickedness.

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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb 14 00:21:56 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:21:56 -0500
Subject: "Swing Low, (Sweet) Chariot" (1871, 1872); "Roll, Jordan,
 Roll" (1863)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.192156.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's gotta be scholarship on these songs somewhere. "Traditional" just doesn't cut it anymore and shouldn't be good enough for Fred Shapiro's book.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
A MYSTERY EXPLAINED.; WHAT A CAKE WALK AND LIVE PIGEON PIE REALLY ARE SOCIAL ENJOYMENTS IN POTTSVILLE.
New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 13, 1874. p. 4 (1 page)
(Same "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" citation as I provided yesterday--ed.)


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
THE ROMANCE OF THE NEGRO.
EDWARD A. POLLARD.. The Galaxy. A Magazine of Entertaining Reading (1866-1878). New York: Oct 1871. Vol. VOL. XII., Iss. No. 4.; p. 470 (9 pages)
Last page (478):
...attest that the negro speaker is _feeling_ what he says, when he is in the full tide of exhortation, when, perchance, he sees his favorite religious phantasm, "the old ship of Zion," far away on the stormy waves, or sings, as of a longing spectator, the hymn of "Swing low, Chariot," one of the characteristic visions of the sky.

NON-PROSCRIPTIVE SCHOOLS IN THE SOUTH.
C G FAIRCHILD. Old and New (1870-1875). Boston: Feb 1874. Vol. 9, Iss. 2; p. 223 (10 pages)
Pg. 8 (230):
But a more poetic softness, a gorgeousness of fancy, a protection from dreaded enemies, a tranquil flow of social joys, characterize the negro's heaven.

"Roll, Jordan, roll!
Oh! I want to go to heaven when I die,
To hear Jordan roll,"

is a favorite song.

"Swing low, sweet chariot,
Coming for to carry me home,"

indicates the luxious ascent. A song of the resurrection with the refrain,--

"O Lord! these bones of mine
Come together in the morning,"

contains such verses as these:--

"When I git on my golden shoes,
I'll walk about heaven, and tell the news.

As I passed by the gates of hell,
I bid the Devil fare you well.

Old Satan thought he had me fast:
I broke his chains, and am free at last."


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
Schools for Contrabands.
Arthur's Home Magazine (1861-1870). Philadelphia: Nov 1863. Vol. 22, Iss. 5; p. 208 (5 pages)
Pg. 209:
The prevalent song, however, heard in every school, in church, and by the way-side, is that of "John Brown," which very much amuses our white soldiers, particularly when the singers roll out,--

"We'll hang Jeff Davis on a sour apple tree!"

Other songs of the negroes are common, as, "The Wrestling Jacob," "Down in the lonesome valley," "Roll, Jordan, roll," "Heab'n shall-a be my home." Russell's "Diary" gives an account of these songs, as he heard them in his evening row over Broad River, on his way to Trescot's estate.


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Title: Jubilee songs :
as sung by the Jubilee Singers, of Fisk University (Nashville, Tenn.) /
Author(s): Seward, Theodore F.; 1835-1902. ; (Theodore Frelinghuysen),; (Compiler - com); (Transcriber - trc); White, George L.; 1838-1895. ; (George Leonard),; (Transcriber - trc)
Corp Author(s): Jubilee Singers. ; American Missionary Association.
Publication: New York (425 Broome St.) :; Biglow & Main,
Year: 1872
Description: 1 close score (28 p.), [4] p. ;; 25 cm.
Language: English
Music Type: Hymns; Multiple forms; Songs
Contents: Nobody knows the trouble I see, Lord! -- Swing low, sweet chariot -- Room enough -- O redeemed -- Roll, Jordan, roll -- Turn back Pharaoh's army -- Rise, mourners -- From every graveyard -- Children, we all shall be free -- I'm a rolling -- I'll hear the trumpet sound -- Didn't my Lord deliver Daniel -- I've just come from the fountain -- Children, you'll be called on -- Give me Jesus -- Gwine to ride up in the chariot -- We'll die in the field -- Go down, Moses -- The rocks and the mountains -- Been a listening -- Keep me from sinking down ; I'm a trav'ling to the grave / [Robbins Battell] -- Many thousand gone -- Steal away.
 SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: Choruses, Sacred (Mixed voices), Unaccompanied -- Scores.
Spirituals (Songs)
Note(s): For unison or SATB chorus, unacc. or with piano./ "Introduction, by the American Missionary Association" ([4] p. at end) signed by E.M. Cravath./ "The words were taken down ... by Mr. [Geo. L.] White ... and the music was reduced to writing by Theo. F. Seward"--Introd./ List of the members of the Jubilee Singers: Page [2] of introd.
Class Descriptors: LC: M2081
Responsibility: under the auspices of the American Missionary Association.
Document Type: Score
Entry: 19891104
Update: 20030904
Accession No: OCLC: 20598086
Database: WorldCat


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb 14 01:03:04 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:03:04 -0500
Subject: "Roll, Jordan, Roll" (1862)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.200304.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Roll, Jordan, Roll" is a year earlier on another database....The following web site has the lyrics, but no song history (as usual).


(GOOGLE)
ROLL JORDAN ROLL Official Site of Negro Spirituals, antique Gospel ...Back to songs index. ROLL JORDAN ROLL. Roll Jordan, roll Roll Jordan, roll I wanter go to heav'n when I die To hear ol' Jordan roll ...
www.negrospirituals.com/news-song/roll_jordan_roll.htm - 10k - Cached - Similar pages


(NORTH AMERICAN WOMEN'S LETTERS AND DIARIES)
1. Towne, Laura Matilda. "Diary of Laura Matilda Towne, July, 1862"
[Page 73 | Paragraph | Section | Document]
A grand, noble flag, supplied by General Saxton, was stretched over the road in full view. The people, marshalled by Mr. Wells on one side, Mr. Gannett on the other, came in procession from below and above the church carrying branches in their hands and singing "Roll, Jordan, Roll." They formed under the flag and before the platform into a dense mass and sang many of their own songs. At General Saxton's request, Nelly's school-children then sang Whittier's song-- "Now praise and tank de Lord, he come To set de people free;

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Towne, Laura Matilda. "Letter from Laura Matilda Towne, July 17, 1862"
[Page 79 | Paragraph | Section | Document]
flowers, the hedges of Adam's-needle, with heads of white bells a foot or two through and four feet high; the purple pease with blossoms that look like dog-tooth violets-- just the size-- climbing up the cotton-plant with its yellow flower, and making whole fields purple and gold; the passion flowers in the grass; the swinging palmetto sprays. I send the music. It is not right, but will give you some idea. "Roll, Jordan, Roll" is the finest song. Notes 17 Richard Soule, Jr.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Grimk?, Charlotte L. Forten. "Diary of Charlotte L. Forten Grimk?, October, 1862"
[Page 128 | Paragraph | Section | Document]
and the gorgeous clouds of crimson and gold were reflected in the waters below, which were smooth and calm as a mirror. Then, as we glided along, the rich sonorous tones of the boatmen broke upon the evening stillness. Their singing impressed me much. It was so sweet and strange and solemn. "Roll, Jordan, Roll" was grand, and another "Jesus make de blind to see Jesus make de deaf to hear Jesus make de cripple walk Walk in, dear Jesus," and the refrain "No man can hender me." It

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Grimk?, Charlotte L. Forten. "Diary of Charlotte L. Forten Grimk?, November, 1862"
[Page 136 | Paragraph | Section | Document]
fine singing. It was very pleasant to be at church again. For two Sundays past I had not been, not feeling well. This eve. our boys and girls with others from across the creek came in and sang a long time for us. Of course we had the old favorites "Down in the Lonesome Valley," and "Roll, Jordan, Roll," and "No man can hender me," and beside those several shouting tunes that we had not heard before; they are very wild and strange. It was impossible for me to understand many of the words although I asked them to repeat them for me. I only know that one had something about "De Nell Am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5. Grimk?, Charlotte L. Forten. "Diary of Charlotte L. Forten Grimk?, December, 1862"
[Page 151 | Paragraph | Section | Document]
man of very gentlemanly and pleasing manners.-- A good man, and much interested in the people, I sh'ld think. I liked him. Then Mr. Fairfield [?] spoke to them about the birth of Christ. Afterward they sang; Among other things, "John Brown," Whittier's "Hymn," "Sing, oh Graveyard," and "Roll, Jordan Roll." There was no one present beside the teachers, our household, [Lt.] Col. B[illings] [,] Mr. T[horpe], Mr. F[airfield] and Miss Rosa [Towne] and Miss W[are]. I enjoyed the day very much. Was too excited and interested to feel weariness then, but am quite

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6. Grimk?, Charlotte L. Forten. "Diary of Charlotte L. Forten Grimk?, July, 1863"
[Page 192 | Paragraph | Section | Document]
we had taught them for that occasion. Then addresses were made by Mr. Pierce, Mr. Lynch (a colored minister) and other gentlemen, there was more singing by the children and by the people, who made the grove resound with the grand tones of "Roll, Jordan, Roll." Then they were all treated to molasses and water-- a great luxury to them-- and hard tack. Among others from Beaufort, Mrs. Lander, and Mr. Page, the [New York] Tribune Correspondent were there. I had met them before--

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7. Editor. "Introduction" [ Note]
James Hugo Johnston, Race Relations in Virginia and Miscegenation in the South, 1776-1860 (Amherst, Mass., 1970), pp. 165-90, 243; Kenneth M. Stampp, The Peculiar Institution: Slavery in the Ante-Bellum South (New York, 1956), pp. 350-61; Eugene D. Genovese, Roll, Jordan, Roll: The World the Slaves Made (New York, 1974), pp. 413-29; Bertram Wyatt-Brown, Southern Honor: Ethics and Behavior in the Old South (New York, 1982), pp. 307-24; Weiner, "Plantation Mistresses and Female Slaves," pp. 131-39, 177-90; bell hooks, Ain't I a

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Results Bibliography
Towne, Laura Matilda, 1825-1901, Diary of Laura Matilda Towne, July, 1862, in Letters and Diary of Laura M. Towne Written from the Sea Islands of South Carolina 1862-1884. Holland, Rupert Sargent, ed.. Cambridge, MA: Riverside Press, 1912, pp. 310. [Bibliographic Details] [View Full Text][7-4-1862] S381-D014
Towne, Laura Matilda, 1825-1901, Letter from Laura Matilda Towne, July 17, 1862, in Letters and Diary of Laura M. Towne Written from the Sea Islands of South Carolina 1862-1884. Holland, Rupert Sargent, ed.. Cambridge, MA: Riverside Press, 1912, pp. 310. [Bibliographic Details] [View Full Text][7-17-1862] S381-D015

Grimk?, Charlotte L. Forten, 1837-1914, Diary of Charlotte L. Forten Grimk?, October, 1862, in The Journal of Charlotte L. Forten. Billington, Ray Allen, introd.. New York, NY: Dryden Press, 1953, pp. 248. [Bibliographic Details] [Biography] [View Full Text][10-21-1862] S294-D067

Grimk?, Charlotte L. Forten, 1837-1914, Diary of Charlotte L. Forten Grimk?, November, 1862, in The Journal of Charlotte L. Forten. Billington, Ray Allen, introd.. New York, NY: Dryden Press, 1953, pp. 248. [Bibliographic Details] [Biography] [View Full Text][11-2-1862] S294-D068

Grimk?, Charlotte L. Forten, 1837-1914, Diary of Charlotte L. Forten Grimk?, December, 1862, in The Journal of Charlotte L. Forten. Billington, Ray Allen, introd.. New York, NY: Dryden Press, 1953, pp. 248. [Bibliographic Details] [Biography] [View Full Text][12-1-1862] S294-D069

Grimk?, Charlotte L. Forten, 1837-1914, Diary of Charlotte L. Forten Grimk?, July, 1863, in The Journal of Charlotte L. Forten. Billington, Ray Allen, introd.. New York, NY: Dryden Press, 1953, pp. 248. [Bibliographic Details] [Biography] [View Full Text][7-2-1863] S294-D076

Editor, Introduction, in Secret Eye: The Journal of Ella Gertrude Clanton Thomas, 1848-1889. Burr, Virginia Ingraham. Chapel Hill, NC: University of North Carolina Press, 1990, pp. 469. [Bibliographic Details] [Undated] S616-D001


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Feb 14 01:17:40 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:17:40 -0500
Subject: railroad slang: "on the cat hop" (right on time)
Message-ID: <SUN.13.FEB.2005.201740.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ramon F. Adams in _The Language of the Railroader_.  Norman: U. of
Oklahoma Press, 1977, p 108:

on the advertised: According to schedule; on time; also _on the card, on
the cat hop_.

In the DA:

cat hop, 1891 Quinn Fools of Fortune 195 If, on the other hand, two of the
three cards are of the same denomination, only three arrangements are
possible, ... which is technically called a 'cat hop.'  1909 Cent. Supp.,
Cat-hop, in faro, two cards of the same denomination left in the
dealing-box for the last turn.

In DARE:

cat-hop n cf cat back 1949 PADS 11.19 CO, Cat-hop  ... Mild bucking [of a
horse].

cat back v 1961 Adams Old-Time Cowhand 300, A hoss which jumped 'bout with
arched back and stiffened knees at a pretense of buckin' was said to ...
"cat back."

N.B.  The two Adams books are by the same author.

I don't find it in OED/OEDs/Chapman/Wentworth & Flexner.  MW3, Barrey and
Van den Bark (1942) have only the gambling sense.

More information as I may find it.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Sunday, February 13,
2005 at 4:50 PM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
>Subject:      railroad slang: "on the cat hop" (right on time)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   I've been asked by a history professor  about an expression he came
>across in his research on the railroads: "on the cat hop" (right on
>time), e.g., "The freight train left on the cat hop."
>
>    I don't have OED or DARE handy, and so maybe "cat hop" appears there.
>But in any case I don't find it in HDAS or Casell's Dictionary of Slang.
>Would anyone in ads-l be familiar with this term and how it came to mean
>"right on time"?
>
>Gerald Cohen


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Feb 14 05:08:02 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:08:02 -0500
Subject: railroad slang: "on the cat hop" (right on time)
In-Reply-To: <A7704766F9EE3949B30D5BF6297999A21B86E4@UMR-CMAIL3.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.000802.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>    I've been asked by a history professor  about an expression he came
> across in his research on the railroads: "on the cat hop" (right on
> time), e.g., "The freight train left on the cat hop."

"Cat hop" has been used in various ways, but I think the basic sense here
would be "pounce". The train "pounces" away from the platform after waiting
catlike for its proper time. This analogy might have been particularly
appropriate to one who had arrived seconds late and missed the train. Just
a speculation. This hypothesis would assume that the original context was
like "departed/started on the cat-hop", with any other contexts (such as
"rolling along the track, on the cat-hop" or "pulled into the station on
the cat-hop") appearing only after the expression was equated to "on time".

-- Doug Wilson


From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Feb 14 05:43:56 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:43:56 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
In-Reply-To: <b09a8f53c4a4e8d0f47408a46b156ce1@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.004356.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>You know, for years I've wondered why it is that, even though it's
>spelled correctly, so many people mispronounce the name of Sri Lanka as
>"Shree" Lanka instead of as "Sree" Lanka.
>
>-Wilson <just kidding>

In seriousness, how would one choose between /sri/ and /Sri/ in "Sri
Lanka"? Reputable English dictionaries show both, so I don't think one can
be faulted for either. I've said /Sri/ as long as I can remember, don't
remember why; Singhalese speakers have not corrected me, but that's not
conclusive. The Worldwide Web of Lies and Errors includes assertions both
ways. I couldn't find a recording of the name spoken by a Sri Lankan
authority right away; I was able to find the name in Sinhala script, and
orthographically it seems to correspond to /Sri/, but that's not
necessarily decisive either without further information.

Of course I don't think an ordinary (even educated and careful) English
speaker should consider himself obligated to pronounce the name of some
Siberian village just as the natives do, or even to pronounce "Paris" as a
Frenchman might, or to say such things as "Deutschland" or
"Zhong[1]guo[2]". But I think the major dictionaries should provide native
pronunciation approximations or recommendations at least for large entities
such as nations.

-- Doug Wilson


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Mon Feb 14 05:59:12 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 00:59:12 -0500
Subject: zydeco/zottico (1955)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.005912.0500.>

For "zydeco" and its variants ("zodico", "zologo", etc.), OED has:

-----
1949 in Leadbitter & Slaven Blues Records 1943-66 (1968) 136 Zologo
(Organ Blues)--1. Gold Star 669.
1960 M. MCCORMICK notes to LP record Treasury of Field Recordings I 31
Two local groups..have achieved nation~wide record sales with their
interpretations of Zydeco music.
[etc.]
-----

Here's an early print reference, with the spelling "zottico":

-----
"On Saturday night, somebody holds a 'zottico' in his home. Out come the
accordion, banjo and rub bo'd. The latter is an oldtime washing board. The
musician plays it with a thimble on his finger. Off they whirl in a folk
dance similar to a square dance."
Marie Lee Phelps, "Visit to Frenchtown," _Houston Post_ May 22, 1955, 5:2.

Cited in:
John Minton, "Houston Creoles and Zydeco: The Emergence of an African
American Urban Popular Style," _American Music_ Vol. 14, No. 4 (Winter,
1996), p. 500.
-----

Minton also gives the date of McCormick's notes to _A Treasury of Field
Recordings_ as 1959, not 1960.


--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb 14 06:35:47 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:35:47 -0500
Subject: "Spending money they don't have to impress people they don't
 like" (1928, Will Rogers?)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.013547.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

IMPRESS PEOPLE  THEY DON'T LIKE--1,330 Google hits, 156 Google Groups hits

Is this from Will Rogers? I came across it in a book about New York.


NEW YORK CITY FOLKLORE:
LEGENDS, TALL TALES, ANECDOTES, STORIES, SAGAS, HEROES AND CHARACTERS, CUSTOMS, TRADITIONS AND SAYINGS
edited by B. A. Botkin
New York: Random House
1956

Pg. 3: Fifth Avenue is a street where a lot of people spend money they haven't earned buying things they don't need to impress people they don't like.
(Footnote One: From _New York and the State It's In_, Stories and pictures arranged by Keith Jennison,...1949--ed.)


(GOOGLE)
Quotes of Will Rogers
... Too many people spend money they haven't earned, to buy things they don't want,
to impress people they don't like. ... Will Rogers (1879-1935). ...
twotrees.www.50megs.com/attic/quotes/rogers.html - 7k - Cached - Similar pages


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
PEN POINTS
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: Jun 4, 1928. p. A4 (1 page):
Americanism: Using money you haven't earned to buy things you don't need to impress people you don't like.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
24 January 1929, The Bee (Danville, VA), pg. 6, col. 3:
How many people do you know who are spending money they have not yet earned for things they don't need to impress people they don't like.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
Other 13 -- No Title
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Sep 14, 1938. p. 17 (1 page)
_Federal Employees Insurance News:_ One of the troubles of this modern age is that too many people are spending money they have not yet earned for things they do not need, to impress people they don't like.

EMILE GAUVREAU, EX-EDITOR, IS DEAD; Chief of Sensational Graphic and of The Mirror 'Made' News, Doctored Photos Depicted an Era Worked for The Courant With Russian Mission
>From drawing made some years ago by James Montgomery Flagg.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Oct 17, 1956. p. 35 (1 page):
Mr. Gavreau recalled that "I was part of that strange race of people aptly described as spending their lives doing things they detest to make money they don't want to buy things they don't need to impress people they don't like."

On Finding a Life in a Living
Christian Science Monitor (1908-Current file). Boston, Mass.: Oct 30, 1956. p. 20 (1 page):
A recent newspaper obituary quotes a former editor whose contributions ot journalism had made him perhaps less than an ornament of the craft:

I was part of that strange race of people aptly described as spending their lives doing things they detest to make money they don't want to buy things they don't need to impress people they don't like.

Today's Chuckle
The Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: Jun 26, 1958. p. B1 (1 page):
People are funny:  They spend money they don't have, to buy things they don't need, to impress people they don't like.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb 14 06:53:50 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 01:53:50 -0500
Subject: zydeco/zottico (1955)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.015350.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Minton also gives the date of McCormick's notes to _A >Treasury of Field
>Recordings_ as 1959, not 1960.

>--Ben Zimmer


OED probably had to use the 1960 date for the notes to the 1960 copyrighted work. This was probably not an error; it's certainly not misleading.

Jeez, I must have looked into "zydeco" ten years ago...It would help to be able to use the Peter Tamony collection again, but this $25-a-word business just isn't going to bring any business to the Western Historical Manuscript Collection at the University of Missouri-Columbia. You can buy a whole book for $25.


(OCLC WORLDCAT)
Title: A Treasury of field recordings :
a panorama of the traditions found in Houston, the city, and its neighboring bayous, plains, beaches, prisons, plantations, and piney woods ... /
Author(s): McCormick, Mack.
Publication: [S.l. : s.n.], S. Lane)
Year: 1960
Description: 2 v. : ill. ; 23 cm.
Language: English
Contents: v. 1. Traditional music and song -- v. 2. Regional and personalised song.
SUBJECT(S)
Descriptor: Folk music -- Texas -- History and criticism.
Note(s): Imprint from v. 2./ Vol. 2 issued as "Descriptive booklet to 'A Treasury of field recordings, v. 2' ... record no. 77/LA/12-3, produced by Dobell's Jazz Record Shop ... London"--Vol. 2, p. 59.
Class Descriptors: LC: ML3551
Responsibility: compiled by Mack McCormick.
Document Type: Book


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb 14 07:59:50 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 02:59:50 -0500
Subject: "A nickel a shtickel" (1946)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.025950.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Maybe Fred can use this rhyme in his Yiddish quotations section. I just added it to my web site (www.barrypopik.com).


"A nickel a shtickel."

New York delis used to feature these signs. It meant that they were selling the ends of a salami for five cents.

It was a good rhyme and a good business.
...
...
...
...
<i>New York City Folklore</i>
edited by B. A. Botkin
New York: Random House
1956
[From "The Jewish Delicatessen," by Ruth Glazer, in <i>Commentary on the American Scene: Portraits of Jewish Life in America</i> (1953). This was originally published as "From the American Scene" in the magazine <i>Commentary</i>, Vol. 1 ? March 1946 ? No. 5]

Pg. 370: "A Nickel a Shtickel"
Pg. 371: And invariably on the glass-topped counter is a plate with small chunks of salami. In the old days the plate always carried a sign, "A Nickel a Shtickel." (A most convenient - and profitable - way of disposing of the ends of the salami, too.) This immortal rhyme succumbed during the [Second World] war to the free verse of "Have a Nosh - 10c."
...
...
...
15 August 1952, Zanesville (OH) Signal, "Walter Winchell On Broadway" column, pg. 4, col. 4:
Harry's Delicatessen (on 47th off B'way) still features "nickel for a shtickel" - chunks of salamee.
...
...
2 April 1972, New York <i>Times</i>, pg. A13:
There was Rosen's Delicatessen in Queens Village, where you got a small hunk of salami for five cents - "a schtickel for a nickel," he called it.
...
...
7 July 1982, New York <i>Times</i>, pg. C1:
"MENTALLY, I'm always noshing," said Mayor Koch, explaining the conflict he has between loving to eat and wanting to keep his weight down. "What I mentally nosh on most used to be called 'a nickel a schtickel' - those small end pieces of salami that were sold on top of the counters in New York delis for 5 cents."
...
...
4 November 1984, New York <i>Times</i>, "True Confessions of a Deli Addict" by Nora Ephron, pg. 425:
Sometimes I would chew on a miniature salami called a "schtickel" (there was a sign at Linny's that read: "A nickel a schtickel is a rhyme, now a nickel a schtickel is a dime") and press my nose against the glass case as a counterman sliced the Nova on the diagonal and laid it on sheets of waxed paper.


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Feb 14 12:16:55 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:16:55 -0500
Subject: Fwd: like sardines in a can
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.071655.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

----- Original Message -----

                Saturday, February 12, 2005 12:11:20 PM
Message
From:           Barnhart
Subject:        like sardines in a can
To:             ADS-L - direct



OED: 1911 packed like sardines in a box

OED: 1922 [Dialect Notes]  However, if one fishes around in the electronic
edition, there is _packed like sardines_ in Harper's Magazine (April 1887).

But, I stumbled across the following:

We passed a most miserable night.  We lay down as best we could, and were
packed like sardines in a box.  All wanted to sleep; but if one man moved,
he woke half a dozen others, who again in waking roused all the rest; so
seelp was, like our supper, onlyu to be enjoyed in imagination, and aall
we could do was to wait intently for daylight.
J.D. Borthwick, _To California Via Panama_, London: 1857, in _Pictures of
Gold Rush California_, Chicago: Lakeside Press, 1949, Chapter 2 p 49

For me, sardines come packed in a can.  So, the expression ought to read
for modern contexts "[packed] like sardines in a can."  It's not in OED.

The earliest quote I've found so far for this is:

"Butrning cotton is one of the most stubborn fires to extinguish," said
assistant fire chief W.B. Cooper.  "And that boxcar was packed like
sardines in a can."  _Daily Journal_ [Commerce, Texas], Sept. 16, 1957, p 1

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Feb 14 12:52:59 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 07:52:59 -0500
Subject: [?] "A nickel a shtickel" (1946)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.075259.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A brief note on sch-~schm- appears in Wentworth & Flexner (p. 606).


David

barnhart at highlands.com

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Monday, February 14,
2005 at 2:59 AM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
>Subject:      "A nickel a shtickel" (1946)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Maybe Fred can use this rhyme in his Yiddish quotations section. I just
>added it to my web site (www.barrypopik.com).
>
>
>"A nickel a shtickel."
>
>New York delis used to feature these signs. It meant that they were
>selling the ends of a salami for five cents.
>
>It was a good rhyme and a good business.
>...
>...
>...
>...
><i>New York City Folklore</i>
>edited by B. A. Botkin
>New York: Random House
>1956
>[From "The Jewish Delicatessen," by Ruth Glazer, in <i>Commentary on the
>American Scene: Portraits of Jewish Life in America</i> (1953). This was
>originally published as "From the American Scene" in the magazine
><i>Commentary</i>, Vol. 1 ??? March 1946 ??? No. 5]
>
>Pg. 370: "A Nickel a Shtickel"
>Pg. 371: And invariably on the glass-topped counter is a plate with small
>chunks of salami. In the old days the plate always carried a sign, "A
>Nickel a Shtickel." (A most convenient - and profitable - way of
>disposing of the ends of the salami, too.) This immortal rhyme succumbed
>during the [Second World] war to the free verse of "Have a Nosh - 10c."
>...
>...
>...
>15 August 1952, Zanesville (OH) Signal, "Walter Winchell On Broadway"
>column, pg. 4, col. 4:
>Harry's Delicatessen (on 47th off B'way) still features "nickel for a
>shtickel" - chunks of salamee.
>...
>...
>2 April 1972, New York <i>Times</i>, pg. A13:
>There was Rosen's Delicatessen in Queens Village, where you got a small
>hunk of salami for five cents - "a schtickel for a nickel," he called it.
>...
>...
>7 July 1982, New York <i>Times</i>, pg. C1:
>"MENTALLY, I'm always noshing," said Mayor Koch, explaining the conflict
>he has between loving to eat and wanting to keep his weight down. "What I
>mentally nosh on most used to be called 'a nickel a schtickel' - those
>small end pieces of salami that were sold on top of the counters in New
>York delis for 5 cents."
>...
>...
>4 November 1984, New York <i>Times</i>, "True Confessions of a Deli
>Addict" by Nora Ephron, pg. 425:
>Sometimes I would chew on a miniature salami called a "schtickel" (there
>was a sign at Linny's that read: "A nickel a schtickel is a rhyme, now a
>nickel a schtickel is a dime") and press my nose against the glass case
>as a counterman sliced the Nova on the diagonal and laid it on sheets of
>waxed paper.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 14 13:43:10 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:43:10 -0500
Subject: Melioration
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.084310.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The phrases. "get some boodie" and "give up some boodie" now appear to
be to be treated as ordinary slang instead of as the obscenities that
they've always been heretofore.

  In the roto-gravure (is this term still used? haven't heard it since
the '40's) of the local broadsheet, a local newly-wed mentions that her
husband wanted to "get some booty." On a local TV chat show, a woman
says that a guy took her over to his house because he thought she was
going to "give up some booty."

Well. language-change is inevitable.

-Wilson Gray


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 14 14:24:29 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:24:29 -0800
Subject: Melioration
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.062429.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An earlier example that springs to mind is to "get off," which in mainstream usage changed from "experience orgasm" to "enjoy oneself (often perversely)."  This happened around 1970.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Melioration
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The phrases. "get some boodie" and "give up some boodie" now appear to
be to be treated as ordinary slang instead of as the obscenities that
they've always been heretofore.

In the roto-gravure (is this term still used? haven't heard it since
the '40's) of the local broadsheet, a local newly-wed mentions that her
husband wanted to "get some booty." On a local TV chat show, a woman
says that a guy took her over to his house because he thought she was
going to "give up some booty."

Well. language-change is inevitable.

-Wilson Gray


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 14 14:51:13 2005
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 06:51:13 -0800
Subject: children's chants--Rise SAlly
In-Reply-To: <BE3547D2.3FAC%mthom@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.065113.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Leadbelly recorded a version of this in the 40s as
Little Sally Walker.

It's on this release: Party songs/Sings and Plays

http://www.oldies.com/product/view.cfm/id_56092.html

Probably recorded it elsewhere as well.


--- Maggie Thompson <mthom at RCN.COM> wrote:

> I remember from my grade-school days (1948-54) a
> playground game that
> featured the chant about "Sally."  The kids formed a
> circle, "Sally"
> crouched in the middle, and the circle kids chanted:
>
> little Sally Ann
> Sitting in the sand
> Crying, crying,
> For a young man.
>
> (the kid playing "Sally" would pretend to cry)
>
> Rise, Sally, rise
> Wipe your crying eyes.
> Turn to the east and
> Turn to the west and
> Turn to the one that
> You love best.
>
> ("Sally" would act this out, pick another kid, who
> then went into the middle
> and it all started over.)
>
> There may have been more to this, but I don't
> remember it.  I grew up in
> Elizabeth, PA, about 15 miles from Pittsburgh, by
> the way.
>
> Maggie Thompson
>



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Feb 14 16:53:11 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 11:53:11 -0500
Subject: nice coinage
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.115311.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At least I think it's a coinage, but I wouldn't be too surprised to
learn of antedates.  There are no prior hits for "Generation A.D.D."
on Nexis, while google is no help for an irrelevant reason.

The New York Times
February 11, 2005 Friday
SECTION: Section E; FILM REVIEW; Pg. 13
HEADLINE: A Cautionary Tale Arguing for Freedom of Expression
BYLINE: By MANOHLA DARGIS

  It was the image seen -- cheered and jeered, canonized and demonized
-- around the world. In 1972 Linda Lovelace, nee Linda Boreman, star
of the notorious hard-core movie ''Deep Throat,'' played the role
that would bequeath on her a tawdry and lasting celebrity. With a
single act of extreme fellatio, this dazed and often confused
23-year-old became a pinup for the party animal's sexual revolution
and, in time, a martyr in the crusade against pornography. But as is
clear from the lively, if maddeningly reductive documentary ''Inside
Deep Throat,'' Ms. Boreman was also little more than a pawn, an empty
vessel for opportunists from both sides of the pornography divide.

  Written and directed by Fenton Bailey and Randy Barbato, who
produced the film with the Hollywood big shot Brian Grazer (''A
Beautiful Mind''), ''Inside Deep Throat'' is a ''slam, bam, thank
you, ma'am'' trifle of an entertainment. Strategically packaged for
Generation A.D.D., with rapid-fire editing, flash graphics and a
breathlessly upbeat vibe, the documentary fuses a melange of
stag-loop snippets, educational-film guffaws and television news
reports with a hit parade of talking heads. Among the notables
delivering generally less-than-considered opinions are hipster
antiques like Norman Mailer, Hugh Hefner, Xaviera Hollander and Dick
Cavett, who claims never to have seen ''Deep Throat.'' The most
entertaining? The Cosmo senior Helen Gurley Brown, who happily
volunteers that ejaculate is good for the complexion.
...


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Mon Feb 14 17:06:08 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:06:08 -0500
Subject: "Re-inventing the wheel" (1965)
In-Reply-To: <140.3e07364a.2f407f33@aol.com>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.120608.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's a slightly earlier example:

1964 _Stanford Law Review_ XVI. 520  "Rediscovering America" or
"reinventing the wheel" is not a fruitful activity even if we do it with
new language and techniques.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Feb 14 17:45:44 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:45:44 -0800
Subject: Melioration
In-Reply-To: <20050214142429.85684.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.094544.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 14, 2005, at 6:24 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> An earlier example that springs to mind is to "get off," which in
> mainstream usage changed from "experience orgasm" to "enjoy oneself
> (often perversely)."  This happened around 1970.

melioration for the intransitive verb "get off (on)" ("I really get off
  on Sichuan cuisine"), but the transitive verb "get off" ("I got Kim
off last night") is still resolutely sexual: "I got Kim off last night
with Sichuan cuisine" can't mean 'I caused Kim enjoyment last night
with Sichuan cuisine'.

as is so often the case, historically related senses of words don't
always undergo semantic shift in parallel.

arnold


From preston at MSU.EDU  Mon Feb 14 17:50:07 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:50:07 -0500
Subject: Melioration
In-Reply-To: <6c8106f97eadbf58f6d6a6fa9e87956e@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.125007.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

arnold,

Why must you place images like "getting Kim off last night with
Sichuan cuisine" in our heads? How am I supposed to get any work done?

dInIs



>On Feb 14, 2005, at 6:24 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>>An earlier example that springs to mind is to "get off," which in
>>mainstream usage changed from "experience orgasm" to "enjoy oneself
>>(often perversely)."  This happened around 1970.
>
>melioration for the intransitive verb "get off (on)" ("I really get off
>  on Sichuan cuisine"), but the transitive verb "get off" ("I got Kim
>off last night") is still resolutely sexual: "I got Kim off last night
>with Sichuan cuisine" can't mean 'I caused Kim enjoyment last night
>with Sichuan cuisine'.
>
>as is so often the case, historically related senses of words don't
>always undergo semantic shift in parallel.
>
>arnold


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb 14 17:58:51 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:58:51 -0500
Subject: CNN (Craven News Network); OT: Daily Candy
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.125851.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CNN--The lead editorial in Sunday's New York Post was about the CNN controversy, The Post has used "Craven News Network" before, but it may stick.

OT: DAILY CANDY (www.dailycandy.com)

Here's today's version. How could this restaurant "open tonight" when I ate there on Saturday? (After visiting another restaurant that Daily Candy said was open but was not.) And how could it be a "small but bustling spot" if it hasn't opened? Just asking.

A list of the crap we've done for Mom:


Called weekly (okay, daily)

Kept mini fire extinguisher under kitchen sink

Carried laminated "in case of emergency, please call" card in wallet

Stopped dating questionable biker guy (still mad at her for it)

Donatella Arpaia (of David Burke and Donatella fame) has just one-upped us all by creating a new restaurant to honor the food her mom raised her on. Ama, which opens tonight, is a welcome addition to the bleak landscape of Italian food in SoHo.

The small but bustling spot features the cuisine of Puglia, the region in the heel of the boot, where Mamma Arpaia was born. Chef Turibio Girardi prepares local favorites like panzerotti (fried calzone), raviolini in capon broth, and capuntini (homemade pasta with fresh tomato sauce, eggplant, and ricotta). Main courses are heavy on seafood, rabbit, sweetbreads, and pancetta-stuffed quail.

The best dessert is the almond cookies. No surprise there. They're grandma's recipe.

And so we add yet another item to the list:


Eat a proper dinner.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Feb 14 18:05:39 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:05:39 -0800
Subject: Melioration
In-Reply-To: <a06020402be369503e1cf@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.100539.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 14, 2005, at 9:50 AM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> Why must you place images like "getting Kim off last night with
> Sichuan cuisine" in our heads? How am I supposed to get any work done?

i am an evil person.  to quote (approximately, from memory) the Cold
Duke of Coffin Castle, from Thurber's The Thirteen Clocks: We all have
our little flaws.  Mine is being evil.

arnold, getting the week off to a good start


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Feb 14 18:22:02 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:22:02 -0500
Subject: Melioration
In-Reply-To: <a06020402be369503e1cf@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.132202.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 12:50 PM -0500 2/14/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>arnold,
>
>Why must you place images like "getting Kim off last night with
>Sichuan cuisine" in our heads? How am I supposed to get any work done?
>
>dInIs
>

Yes, it does give a whole new meaning to the concept of a hot date...

>
>>On Feb 14, 2005, at 6:24 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>
>>>An earlier example that springs to mind is to "get off," which in
>>>mainstream usage changed from "experience orgasm" to "enjoy oneself
>>>(often perversely)."  This happened around 1970.
>>
>>melioration for the intransitive verb "get off (on)" ("I really get off
>>  on Sichuan cuisine"), but the transitive verb "get off" ("I got Kim
>>off last night") is still resolutely sexual: "I got Kim off last night
>>with Sichuan cuisine" can't mean 'I caused Kim enjoyment last night
>>with Sichuan cuisine'.
>>
>>as is so often the case, historically related senses of words don't
>>always undergo semantic shift in parallel.
>>
>>arnold
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Feb 14 18:34:54 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 10:34:54 -0800
Subject: [?] "A nickel a shtickel" (1946)
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e01cfa0ea3b9aca00fa3ef46a.1cfa0f4@chain.highlands.com>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.103454.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Except I don't think "a nickel a shtickel" is an instance of the "x-schmx"
pattern.  It simply means  "a nickel a piece," using the diminutive form of
"shtick" 'piece'.  (Cf. south German St?ck - St?ckl~St?ckrl.)

Peter Mc.

--On Monday, February 14, 2005 7:52 AM -0500 Barnhart
<barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM> wrote:

> A brief note on sch-~schm- appears in Wentworth & Flexner (p. 606).
>
>
> David
>
> barnhart at highlands.com
>
> American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Monday, February 14,
> 2005 at 2:59 AM -0500 wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
>> Subject:      "A nickel a shtickel" (1946)
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -------
>>
>> Maybe Fred can use this rhyme in his Yiddish quotations section. I just
>> added it to my web site (www.barrypopik.com).
>>
>>
>> "A nickel a shtickel."
>>
>> New York delis used to feature these signs. It meant that they were
>> selling the ends of a salami for five cents.
>>
>> It was a good rhyme and a good business.
>> ...
>> ...
>> ...
>> ...
>> <i>New York City Folklore</i>
>> edited by B. A. Botkin
>> New York: Random House
>> 1956
>> [From "The Jewish Delicatessen," by Ruth Glazer, in <i>Commentary on the
>> American Scene: Portraits of Jewish Life in America</i> (1953). This was
>> originally published as "From the American Scene" in the magazine
>> <i>Commentary</i>, Vol. 1 ??? March 1946 ??? No. 5]
>>
>> Pg. 370: "A Nickel a Shtickel"
>> Pg. 371: And invariably on the glass-topped counter is a plate with small
>> chunks of salami. In the old days the plate always carried a sign, "A
>> Nickel a Shtickel." (A most convenient - and profitable - way of
>> disposing of the ends of the salami, too.) This immortal rhyme succumbed
>> during the [Second World] war to the free verse of "Have a Nosh - 10c."
>> ...
>> ...
>> ...
>> 15 August 1952, Zanesville (OH) Signal, "Walter Winchell On Broadway"
>> column, pg. 4, col. 4:
>> Harry's Delicatessen (on 47th off B'way) still features "nickel for a
>> shtickel" - chunks of salamee.
>> ...
>> ...
>> 2 April 1972, New York <i>Times</i>, pg. A13:
>> There was Rosen's Delicatessen in Queens Village, where you got a small
>> hunk of salami for five cents - "a schtickel for a nickel," he called it.
>> ...
>> ...
>> 7 July 1982, New York <i>Times</i>, pg. C1:
>> "MENTALLY, I'm always noshing," said Mayor Koch, explaining the conflict
>> he has between loving to eat and wanting to keep his weight down. "What I
>> mentally nosh on most used to be called 'a nickel a schtickel' - those
>> small end pieces of salami that were sold on top of the counters in New
>> York delis for 5 cents."
>> ...
>> ...
>> 4 November 1984, New York <i>Times</i>, "True Confessions of a Deli
>> Addict" by Nora Ephron, pg. 425:
>> Sometimes I would chew on a miniature salami called a "schtickel" (there
>> was a sign at Linny's that read: "A nickel a schtickel is a rhyme, now a
>> nickel a schtickel is a dime") and press my nose against the glass case
>> as a counterman sliced the Nova on the diagonal and laid it on sheets of
>> waxed paper.



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Feb 14 20:20:20 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:20:20 -0500
Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.152020.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A part of the lyric to a blues/jazz number recorded in the 1920s?, very
dimly recollected: "I got a fine woman, lives back of the jail, got a
sign in her window, good pussy for sale."

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
Date: Saturday, February 12, 2005 5:41 pm
Subject: Re: American Negro Folklore (1968)

> Jawbone walk, jawbone talk,
> Jawbone eat with a knife and fork.
>          ---Old Minstrel Song
>
>
> Mama's in the kitchen,
> Papa's in jail.
> Sister's on the corner,
> Yellin' "Pussy for sale!"
>
>           ---From a song called "Alley Boogie,"  sung on the
> march by U.S. Marines in New Zealand in WW II.
>
> Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man,
> Washed his face in a fryin' pan,
> Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
> Died with the toothache in his heel.
>
>          ---Old Minstrel Song, "Old Dan Tucker"
>
> JL
>
>
> Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------
> ------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject: American Negro Folklore (1968)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
>
> "Hawkins," "made in de shade, sold in de sun," and others of
> interest here.
>
>
> AMERICAN NEGRO FOLKLORE
> by J. Mason Brewer
> Chicago: Quadrangle Books
> 1968
>
> Pg. 189 (Slave Seculars and Work Songs):
> _I Went to Atlanta_
>
> I Went to Atlanta
> Never been dere a-fo'
> White folks eat de apple
> Nigger wait fo' co'
>
> (Other verses are "White folks sleep on feather bed" and "White
> folks wear de fancy suit" and "White folks sit in Lawd's place"--ed.)
>
> Pg. 304 (Cold Weather Signs): If turkeys roost high in a tree,
> it's a sign of cold weather. You will hear the old folks say,
> "Look out, children. Hawkins is coming."
>
> Pg. 323 (Creole Proverbs):
> Great to speak, little to do.
> One goes everywhere with fine clothes.
> Ox who comes first always drinks clear water.
> Pg. 324:
> That is not the baptism of a doll. (No laughing matter.)
> When the tree falls the goat climbs it.
> The best swimmer is often drowned.
> When one is very hungry one does not peel the sweet potato.
> His tongue knows no Sunday.
> I keep nothing hidden in the sideboard. (I keep nothing back.)
> Set your type before you go and then read it. (Have on your tongue
> what you are going to say.)
>
> Pg. 338 ("Dirty Dozens" Rhymes):
> Yo' mama's in de kitchen; yo' papa's in jail;
> Yo' sister's round de corner, hollerin' "Hot stuff for sale."
>
> Pg. 339 (Street Cries):
> I sell to the rich,
> I sell to the po';
> I'm gonna sell the lady
> Standin' in that do'.
>
> I got water with the melon, red to the rind!
> If you don't believe it just pull down your blind.
> You eat the watermelon and preee-serve the rind!
>
> Pg. 340:
> We sell it to the rich, we sell it to the poor,
> We give it to the sweet brownskin, peepin' out the door.
> _Tout chaud, Madame, tout chaud!_
> Git 'em while they're hot. Hot _calas_!
>
> The Waffle Man is a fine old man.
> He washes his face in a frying-pan.
> He makes his waffles with his hand.
> Everybody loved the waffle man.
>
> Char-coal! Char-coal!
> My horse is white, my face is black.
> I sell my charcoal, two-bits a sack--
> Char-coal! Char-coal!
>
> Pg. 342:
> Porgy walk; Porgy talk,
> Porgy eat wid a knife an' fork;
> Porgy-e-e-e-!
>
> Vanilla, chocolate, peach cream
> Dat surely freezed by de stream.
> It was made in de shade, an' is sold in de sun.
> If you ain't got a nickel, you can't get none.
>
> Any rags, any bones, any bottles today?
> The same old rag man comin' this a-way.
>
> Swimp man, swimp man, raw, raw, raw.
> Fifteen cents a plate, two for a quarter.
> Raw, raw, raw.
>
> Pg. 343 (Jeering and Taunting Rhymes):
> A bushel o' wheat, a bushel o' san',
> Ah'd rather be a nigger than a po' white man.
>
> You bowlegged, lazy,
> An' almo' half crazy.
>
> Pg. 367 (Autograph Album Rhymes):
> You can kiss beneath a grapevine, you can kiss beneath the rose,
> But the best place I know of is to kiss beneath the nose.
>
> Pg. 368:
> Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
> If you don't love nobody, keep it to yourself.
>
> Up the hickory, an' down the pine;
> Good-looking boys is hard to find.
>
> Sugar is sweet, an' coffee is strong;
> Write me a letter, and don't be long.
>
> It takes a rocking chair to rock,
> A rubber ball to roll,
> A tall, skinny papa
> To satisfy my soul.
>
> Orange is a city, Lemon is a state;
> I wrote you a letter, but I forgot de date.
>
> Pg. 369:
> My papa is a butcher,
> My mama cuts de meat.
> Ah'm de little weiner-wish
> Dat runs around destreet.
>
> If the ocean was milk, and the bottom was cream,
> I'd dive for you like a submarine.
>
> Cream cheese, cream cheese floatin' in the air,
> That bald-headed man ain't got no hair.
>
> Pg. 373 (Ring-Game Songs):
> Ooka dooka soda cracker,
> Does your father chew tobacco?
> Yes, my father chews tobacco.
> Ooka dooka soda cracker.
>
>
> Copy cat, copy cat, sittin' on duh fence,
> Trying' tuh make a dollar out o' fifteen cents.
>
>
> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
> Trenton Times Monday, October 17, 1904 Trenton, New Jersey
> ...of whioti starts off with "ANY RAGS, ANY BONES, ANY bottles
> today." Of course.....Fred Barlow, asked, "Have you ANY rags
> today''" H happened that Just..
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Feb 14 20:26:48 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:26:48 -0500
Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.152648.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> "Gettin' more ass than a toilet seat."  In movie The Deer Hunter
> (1979), cited in HDAS.

Heard from a college student in the early 1960s, in Boston.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
Date: Sunday, February 13, 2005 6:30 pm
Subject: Re: African American Folklore (2002)

> "What I mean, jelly-bean!"  NYC white kids, 1959.
>
> "Gettin' more ass than a toilet seat."  In movie The Deer Hunter
> (1979), cited in HDAS.
>
> "So skinny, when she cries the tears run down her back."
> Kingston, NY, white kid, ca1970.
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------
> ------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: African American Folklore (2002)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
>
> On Feb 12, 2005, at 2:47 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
> > Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> > --------
> >
> > Even "I must develop my bust" is here!...ProQuest is down right now,
> > so I'll search these with Newspaperarchive.
>
> "I must develop my bust"?!!! Well, after a half-century of
> desegregation and contamination, what can one expect?
>
> More random stuff below.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
> >
> >
> > FROM MY PEOPLE:
> > 400 YEARS OF AFICAN AMERICAN FOLKLORE
> > edited by Caryl Cumber Dance
> > New York: W. W. Norton
> > 2002
> >
> > Pg. 470 (Aphorisms and Other Proverbial Sayings):
> > God don't like ugly.
> > Hard head, soft behind.
> >
> > Pg. 471:
> > You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.--Medgar Evans.
> >
> > Pg. 480:
> > _I'll Eat Hen I'm Hungry_
> > From Thomas W. Talley, _Negro Folk Rhymes_
> >
> > I'll eat when I'se hungry,
> > An' I'll rink when I'se dry;
> > An' if de whitefolks don't kill me,
> > I'll live till I die.
> >
> > In my liddle log cabin,
> > Ever since I've been born;
> > Dere hain't been no nothin'
> > 'Cept dat hard salt parch corn.
> > Pg. 481:
> > But I knows what's a henhouse,
> > An' de tucky he charve;
> > An' if old Mosser don't kill me,
> > I cain't never starve.
> >
> > _Aught's a Aughts_
> > Traditional
> >
> > An aught's a aught and a figger's a figger;
> > All for the white folks and none for the nigger.
> >
> > Pg. 509:
> > _Hambone, Hambone_
> > This traditional clapping game may be played with a partner or one
> > indiv,; slap his thigh as he recites. Additional lines may be
> > improvised.
> >
> > Hambone, Hambone, where you been?
> > Round the world and back again.
> >
> > Hambone, Hambone, what'd you do?
> > I got a train and I fairly flew.
> >
> > Hambone, Hambone, where'd you stay?
> > I met a pretty girl and I couldn't get away.
> >
> > Hambone, Hambone, where'd you go?
> > I hopped up to Miss Lucy's door.
> >
> > Hambone, Hambone, what's you see?
> > I asked Miss Lucy to marry me.
> >
> > Pg. 511:
> > _We Must, We Must, We Must_
> > From Daryl Cumber Dance, _Honey, Hush!_
> > WHen I recorded this verse on May 21, 1995, the singer told me she
> > learned it in gym class in the 1950s, but as she sang a younger
> woman> joined her, suggesting that it has passed on to the next
> generation.>
> > We must, we must, we must,
> > We must develop our bust.
> >
> > We must, we must, we must,
> > We must develop our bust.
> >
> > The bigger the better,
> > The tighter the sweater.
> > The boys are depending on us.
> >
> > Pg. 526 (Autograph Album Rhymes, from J. Mason Brewer, _Worser Days
> > and Better Times_):
> > Love all, trust few;
> > Learn to paddle your own canoe.
> >
> > Pg. 527:
> > When you marry and get out of shape,
> > Get you a girdle for $2.98.
> >
> > The Mississippi River is deep and wide;
> > Catch an alligator to the other side.
> >
> > Girls are made of sugar and spice;
> > Boys aren't made, they just shoot dice.
> >
> > When you get old and think you're sweet,
> > Take off your shoes, and smell your feet.
> >
> > I wish you luck, I wish you joy,
> > I wish you first a baby boy;
> > And when his hair beings to curl,
> > I wish you next a baby girl;
> > And when her hair begins to knot,
> > I guess you know it's time to stop.
> >
> > Ice cream city, candy state,
> > This sweet letter don't need no date.
> >
> > Up on a house top, baking a cake,
> > The way I love you is no mistake.
> >
> > Pg. 528:
> > I don't make love by the garden gate,
> > For love is blind, but the neighbors ain't.
> >
> > I've got a cute little shape, and a pretty little figure;
> > Stand back, big boys, until I get a little bigger!
> >
> > I love you once, I love you twice;
> > Baby, I love you next to Jesus Christ.
>
> I love you so much that I'd kill a brick for you.
>
> >
> > Milk is milk, cheese is cheese;
> > What is a kiss without a squeeze?
> >
> > You're my morning milk, my evening cream,
> > My all-day study, and my midnight dream.
> >
> > Roses on my shoulders, slippers on my feet;
> > I'm my mother's baby, don't you think I'm sweet?
> >
> > Apples on the shelf, peaches in the bowl,
> > Can't get a sweetheart to save my soul.
> >
> > Up on the mountain, five feet high,
> > I love you, baby, that ain't no lie.
> >
> > Pg. 529:
> > When you get married and have twenty-four,
> > Don't stop there, the Army needs lots more.
> >
> > When you get married and your husband gets drunk,
> > Put him in the trunk and sell him for junk.
> >
> > When you get married and have twenty-five,
> > Daon't call it a family, call it a tribe!
> >
> > The river is wide, the boat is floating,
> > Darling, let's marry and stop this courting!
> >
> > Ice is ice, rice is rice;
> > One day, baby, you'll be my wife.
> >
> > Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
> > Baby, I'm getting tired of sleeping by myself.
> >
> > When you get married and live in China,
> > Rememeber me back in old North Carolina.
> >
> > Life is sweet, life is swell,
> > But when you marry, life is hell.
> >
> > When you marry and live across the lake,
> > Send me a kiss by a rattlesnake.
> >
> > When you get married and live upstairs,
> > DOn't fall down putting on airs.
> >
> > When you marry don't marry a cook,
> > Marry a man with a fat pocketbook.
> >
> > When you marry and live across the sea,
> > Send me a cocoanut C.O.D.
> >
> > Lions in the cage, monkeys in the zoo,
> > Who wants to marry a fool like you?
> >
> > Pg. 530:
> > If you don't like my apples, don't shake my tree;
>
> You're the cutest thing that I did ever see.
> I really love your peaches. Gonna shake your tree.
>
> If you don't like my peaches, don't you shake my tree.
>
> > I ain't after your man, he's after me.
> >
> > When you get married and live out west,
> > I'll send your mail by the Jigger express.
> >
> > Pg. 531 (Rhymes and Brags from Muhammad Ali, formerly Cassius Clay)
> > I'm so mean, I make medicine sick.--Neil Leifer and Thomas Hauser,
> > _Muhammad Ali Memories_
> >
> > Pg. 549:
> > _More Dozens_
> > Because the dozens is such an obscene exchange, no attempt is
> made to
> > reproduce a game here. Rather I present some carefully chosen
> standard> lines from the game.
> >
> > Yo' mama's like a bag of chips. She free to lay.
> > Yo' mama's so dumb she tripped over a cordless phone.
> > Yo' mama's so stupid it takes her two hours to watch _60 Minutes_.
> > Yo' mama's so dumb she thought she could send a voice mail by
> > screaming into a envelope.
> > Yo' mama's so bald she gets brainwashed when she takes a shower.
> >
> > Pg. 550:
> > Yo' mama's in the kitchen; yo' daddy's in jail;
> > yo' sister on de corner offering it for sale.
> >
> > _Insults_
> >
> > Happy birthday to you,
> > You belong in a zoo.
> > You look like a monkey,
> > And smell like one too!
> >
> > My name is Ran,
> > I work in the sand;
> > I'd rather be a nigger
> > Than a poor White man.
> >
> > White folks think they fine,
> > But their raggedy drawers stink just like mine.
> >
> > He is so ugly he has to _sneak_ up on a mirror.
>
> He's two shades darker than Bell's telephone. (clearly older than
> "black is beautiful" and the break-up of Ma Bell.)
>
> He's of Indian descent: Choctaw. The lightest [sc. shade of skin in
> his family] is chocolate; the darkest is tar.
>
> He's so ugly that, when he cries, the tears roll down the back of
> his head.
>
> He's so ugly that it looks like he's been in an ax fight and
> everybody had an ax but him.
>
> >
> > Pg. 551:
> > At least my mama ain't no doorknob,
> > Everybody get a turn.
> >
> > Least my mama ain't no railroad track,
> > Lay out all over the country.
> >
> > _Retorts_
> >
> > Tell the truth, snaggle tooth.
> > What you mean, jelly bean?
>
> See what I mean, jelly bean?
> You heard what I said, nappy head.
> Step out on the patio, daddy-o.
> Make like Ezzard and hit the desert.
> >
> > Pg. 552:
> > See you later, Alligator.
> > After while, Crocodile.
> >
> > I dig all jive.
> > That's the reason I stay alive.
> >
> > Your eyes may shine, your teeth may grit,
> > But none of this food will you git.
>
> Baby, I'm 500% more man.
> I lay more pipe than a plumber can.
>
> After I take a leak, I don't shake it off.
> I take my left foot and kick it off.
>
> She got mo' ass than a toilet seat. (Said in response to the
> previous observation) Better mo' ass than no ass.
>
> >
> >
> > (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
> > Charleroi Mail Friday, December 01, 1950 Charleroi, Pennsylvania
> > ...Wilson in v.luch eyes MAY YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. Hut none of my
> money> Will you.....sides arc still alking indicates there MAY be
> scTine ope
> > left. When Girl Portia..
> >
> > Daily Register Saturday, December 23, 1950 Harrisburg, Illinois
> > ...her: "YOUR eyes MAY shine. YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. But none of my
> > money Will you.....a Merry a New Year Holland's HOLIDAY MAY YOUR
> > Holiday Cheer go on and on REES..
> >
> >
> > Edwardsville Intelligencer Wednesday, July 08, 1964 Edwardsville,
> > Illinois
> > ...you DON'T want MY peaches, DON'T SHAKE MY TREE. When you saw a
> > red-haired girl.....Neutral IS A Nice GearBut DON'T You Have Any
> > GOLDWATER--ATRAGEDY..
> >
> >
> > Lancaster Eagle Gazette Thursday, July 18, 1974 Lancaster, Ohio
> > ...a brick. I'm so mean I MAKE MEDICINE SICK. The occasion for
> > Ali's.....now than ever before which could MAKE up for some
> parts .of
> > my game that..
> >
> >
> > Mountain Democrat Friday, February 17, 1989 Placerville, California
> > ...I wIsh YOU luck, I wIsh YOU JOY, "I wIsh YOU fIrst a BABY
> BOY. "AND
> > when hIs.....haIr begIns to curl, I wIsh YOU then a BABY gIrl. AND
> > when her..
> >
> >
> >
> > Post Standard Friday, August 23, 1991 Syracuse, New York
> > ...comment on that situation and I 'GOD DOESN'T LIKE UGLY. He'll
> > handle the.....coming. He is such a strong Peters DOESN'T have
> to be
> > con- vinced of Seals..
> >
> > Post Standard Sunday, March 19, 2000 Syracuse, New York
> > ...to the public. For more 435-2155. 'GOD DON'T LIKE UGLY' An
> > inspirational gospel.....musi- DON'T LIKE comes to the Landmark 362
> > S..
> >
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 14 20:33:40 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:33:40 -0500
Subject: Melioration
In-Reply-To: <E1D0ktO-0005U3-00@mx20.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.153340.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For a while, back in '71, "get it up to/for" had a brief run. I think
that it began to die around the time that a female colleague was heard
to comment that she "couldn't get it up to go across the street," where
a class was being held while the campus was shut down by an anti-war
protest. A suggestion by this same woman, after the inappropriateness
of the use of this bit of guy-talk by a woman had been explained to
her, that women, therefore, should say, "get it wet to/for" probably
applied the coup de grace.

The somewhat similar phrase, "get/be up to/for" has a familiar ring,
but it's been around so long that I can't get it up to claim that that
phrase has the same origin as "get it up."

-Wilson

On Feb 14, 2005, at 1:22 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Melioration
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 12:50 PM -0500 2/14/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>> arnold,
>>
>> Why must you place images like "getting Kim off last night with
>> Sichuan cuisine" in our heads? How am I supposed to get any work done?
>>
>> dInIs
>>
>
> Yes, it does give a whole new meaning to the concept of a hot date...
>
>>
>>> On Feb 14, 2005, at 6:24 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>
>>>> An earlier example that springs to mind is to "get off," which in
>>>> mainstream usage changed from "experience orgasm" to "enjoy oneself
>>>> (often perversely)."  This happened around 1970.
>>>
>>> melioration for the intransitive verb "get off (on)" ("I really get
>>> off
>>>  on Sichuan cuisine"), but the transitive verb "get off" ("I got Kim
>>> off last night") is still resolutely sexual: "I got Kim off last
>>> night
>>> with Sichuan cuisine" can't mean 'I caused Kim enjoyment last night
>>> with Sichuan cuisine'.
>>>
>>> as is so often the case, historically related senses of words don't
>>> always undergo semantic shift in parallel.
>>>
>>> arnold
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dennis R. Preston
>> University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African
>> Languages
>> A-740 Wells Hall
>> Michigan State University
>> East Lansing, MI 48824
>> Phone: (517) 432-3099
>> Fax: (517) 432-2736
>> preston at msu.edu
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Mon Feb 14 20:48:01 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:48:01 -0500
Subject: spirituals
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.154801.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry asks, "How could Oxford publish a book like this?", referring to
THE OXFORD BOOK OF SPIRITUALS, edited by Moses Hogan, Oxford University
Press 2002.

Please, Barry, don't look at Goldenballs and the Iron Lady: a little
book of nicknames, by Andrew Delahunty, Oxford University Press, 2004.
And if you MUST, then please don't look at the entries for "windy city"
and "big apple".  And if you do read those entries, talk a walk around
the block before posting your thoughts to ADS-L.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 14 20:53:14 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:53:14 -0500
Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
In-Reply-To: <E1D0mo8-0005sB-00@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.155314.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 14, 2005, at 3:26 PM, George Thompson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: African American Folklore (2002)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> "Gettin' more ass than a toilet seat."  In movie The Deer Hunter
>> (1979), cited in HDAS.
>
> Heard from a college student in the early 1960s, in Boston.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

Heard from a college student in the early 1960's in Los Angeles. There
was also a version used to describe a woman: "She got more ass than a
toilet seat," i.e. she "pack much back" in the Sir-Mix-A-Lotian sense.

If this had spread from one end of the country to the other by then, it
makes me wish that there was a Federal Catch-Phrase Authority to which
the inventor of such a phrase would have to report.

-Wilson

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Date: Sunday, February 13, 2005 6:30 pm
> Subject: Re: African American Folklore (2002)
>
>> "What I mean, jelly-bean!"  NYC white kids, 1959.
>>
>> "Gettin' more ass than a toilet seat."  In movie The Deer Hunter
>> (1979), cited in HDAS.
>>
>> "So skinny, when she cries the tears run down her back."
>> Kingston, NY, white kid, ca1970.
>>
>> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------
>> ------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>> Subject: Re: African American Folklore (2002)
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------------
>>
>> On Feb 12, 2005, at 2:47 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
>>> Subject: African American Folklore (2002)
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Even "I must develop my bust" is here!...ProQuest is down right now,
>>> so I'll search these with Newspaperarchive.
>>
>> "I must develop my bust"?!!! Well, after a half-century of
>> desegregation and contamination, what can one expect?
>>
>> More random stuff below.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> FROM MY PEOPLE:
>>> 400 YEARS OF AFICAN AMERICAN FOLKLORE
>>> edited by Caryl Cumber Dance
>>> New York: W. W. Norton
>>> 2002
>>>
>>> Pg. 470 (Aphorisms and Other Proverbial Sayings):
>>> God don't like ugly.
>>> Hard head, soft behind.
>>>
>>> Pg. 471:
>>> You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.--Medgar Evans.
>>>
>>> Pg. 480:
>>> _I'll Eat Hen I'm Hungry_
>>> From Thomas W. Talley, _Negro Folk Rhymes_
>>>
>>> I'll eat when I'se hungry,
>>> An' I'll rink when I'se dry;
>>> An' if de whitefolks don't kill me,
>>> I'll live till I die.
>>>
>>> In my liddle log cabin,
>>> Ever since I've been born;
>>> Dere hain't been no nothin'
>>> 'Cept dat hard salt parch corn.
>>> Pg. 481:
>>> But I knows what's a henhouse,
>>> An' de tucky he charve;
>>> An' if old Mosser don't kill me,
>>> I cain't never starve.
>>>
>>> _Aught's a Aughts_
>>> Traditional
>>>
>>> An aught's a aught and a figger's a figger;
>>> All for the white folks and none for the nigger.
>>>
>>> Pg. 509:
>>> _Hambone, Hambone_
>>> This traditional clapping game may be played with a partner or one
>>> indiv,; slap his thigh as he recites. Additional lines may be
>>> improvised.
>>>
>>> Hambone, Hambone, where you been?
>>> Round the world and back again.
>>>
>>> Hambone, Hambone, what'd you do?
>>> I got a train and I fairly flew.
>>>
>>> Hambone, Hambone, where'd you stay?
>>> I met a pretty girl and I couldn't get away.
>>>
>>> Hambone, Hambone, where'd you go?
>>> I hopped up to Miss Lucy's door.
>>>
>>> Hambone, Hambone, what's you see?
>>> I asked Miss Lucy to marry me.
>>>
>>> Pg. 511:
>>> _We Must, We Must, We Must_
>>> From Daryl Cumber Dance, _Honey, Hush!_
>>> WHen I recorded this verse on May 21, 1995, the singer told me she
>>> learned it in gym class in the 1950s, but as she sang a younger
>> woman> joined her, suggesting that it has passed on to the next
>> generation.>
>>> We must, we must, we must,
>>> We must develop our bust.
>>>
>>> We must, we must, we must,
>>> We must develop our bust.
>>>
>>> The bigger the better,
>>> The tighter the sweater.
>>> The boys are depending on us.
>>>
>>> Pg. 526 (Autograph Album Rhymes, from J. Mason Brewer, _Worser Days
>>> and Better Times_):
>>> Love all, trust few;
>>> Learn to paddle your own canoe.
>>>
>>> Pg. 527:
>>> When you marry and get out of shape,
>>> Get you a girdle for $2.98.
>>>
>>> The Mississippi River is deep and wide;
>>> Catch an alligator to the other side.
>>>
>>> Girls are made of sugar and spice;
>>> Boys aren't made, they just shoot dice.
>>>
>>> When you get old and think you're sweet,
>>> Take off your shoes, and smell your feet.
>>>
>>> I wish you luck, I wish you joy,
>>> I wish you first a baby boy;
>>> And when his hair beings to curl,
>>> I wish you next a baby girl;
>>> And when her hair begins to knot,
>>> I guess you know it's time to stop.
>>>
>>> Ice cream city, candy state,
>>> This sweet letter don't need no date.
>>>
>>> Up on a house top, baking a cake,
>>> The way I love you is no mistake.
>>>
>>> Pg. 528:
>>> I don't make love by the garden gate,
>>> For love is blind, but the neighbors ain't.
>>>
>>> I've got a cute little shape, and a pretty little figure;
>>> Stand back, big boys, until I get a little bigger!
>>>
>>> I love you once, I love you twice;
>>> Baby, I love you next to Jesus Christ.
>>
>> I love you so much that I'd kill a brick for you.
>>
>>>
>>> Milk is milk, cheese is cheese;
>>> What is a kiss without a squeeze?
>>>
>>> You're my morning milk, my evening cream,
>>> My all-day study, and my midnight dream.
>>>
>>> Roses on my shoulders, slippers on my feet;
>>> I'm my mother's baby, don't you think I'm sweet?
>>>
>>> Apples on the shelf, peaches in the bowl,
>>> Can't get a sweetheart to save my soul.
>>>
>>> Up on the mountain, five feet high,
>>> I love you, baby, that ain't no lie.
>>>
>>> Pg. 529:
>>> When you get married and have twenty-four,
>>> Don't stop there, the Army needs lots more.
>>>
>>> When you get married and your husband gets drunk,
>>> Put him in the trunk and sell him for junk.
>>>
>>> When you get married and have twenty-five,
>>> Daon't call it a family, call it a tribe!
>>>
>>> The river is wide, the boat is floating,
>>> Darling, let's marry and stop this courting!
>>>
>>> Ice is ice, rice is rice;
>>> One day, baby, you'll be my wife.
>>>
>>> Apples on the table, peaches on the shelf,
>>> Baby, I'm getting tired of sleeping by myself.
>>>
>>> When you get married and live in China,
>>> Rememeber me back in old North Carolina.
>>>
>>> Life is sweet, life is swell,
>>> But when you marry, life is hell.
>>>
>>> When you marry and live across the lake,
>>> Send me a kiss by a rattlesnake.
>>>
>>> When you get married and live upstairs,
>>> DOn't fall down putting on airs.
>>>
>>> When you marry don't marry a cook,
>>> Marry a man with a fat pocketbook.
>>>
>>> When you marry and live across the sea,
>>> Send me a cocoanut C.O.D.
>>>
>>> Lions in the cage, monkeys in the zoo,
>>> Who wants to marry a fool like you?
>>>
>>> Pg. 530:
>>> If you don't like my apples, don't shake my tree;
>>
>> You're the cutest thing that I did ever see.
>> I really love your peaches. Gonna shake your tree.
>>
>> If you don't like my peaches, don't you shake my tree.
>>
>>> I ain't after your man, he's after me.
>>>
>>> When you get married and live out west,
>>> I'll send your mail by the Jigger express.
>>>
>>> Pg. 531 (Rhymes and Brags from Muhammad Ali, formerly Cassius Clay)
>>> I'm so mean, I make medicine sick.--Neil Leifer and Thomas Hauser,
>>> _Muhammad Ali Memories_
>>>
>>> Pg. 549:
>>> _More Dozens_
>>> Because the dozens is such an obscene exchange, no attempt is
>> made to
>>> reproduce a game here. Rather I present some carefully chosen
>> standard> lines from the game.
>>>
>>> Yo' mama's like a bag of chips. She free to lay.
>>> Yo' mama's so dumb she tripped over a cordless phone.
>>> Yo' mama's so stupid it takes her two hours to watch _60 Minutes_.
>>> Yo' mama's so dumb she thought she could send a voice mail by
>>> screaming into a envelope.
>>> Yo' mama's so bald she gets brainwashed when she takes a shower.
>>>
>>> Pg. 550:
>>> Yo' mama's in the kitchen; yo' daddy's in jail;
>>> yo' sister on de corner offering it for sale.
>>>
>>> _Insults_
>>>
>>> Happy birthday to you,
>>> You belong in a zoo.
>>> You look like a monkey,
>>> And smell like one too!
>>>
>>> My name is Ran,
>>> I work in the sand;
>>> I'd rather be a nigger
>>> Than a poor White man.
>>>
>>> White folks think they fine,
>>> But their raggedy drawers stink just like mine.
>>>
>>> He is so ugly he has to _sneak_ up on a mirror.
>>
>> He's two shades darker than Bell's telephone. (clearly older than
>> "black is beautiful" and the break-up of Ma Bell.)
>>
>> He's of Indian descent: Choctaw. The lightest [sc. shade of skin in
>> his family] is chocolate; the darkest is tar.
>>
>> He's so ugly that, when he cries, the tears roll down the back of
>> his head.
>>
>> He's so ugly that it looks like he's been in an ax fight and
>> everybody had an ax but him.
>>
>>>
>>> Pg. 551:
>>> At least my mama ain't no doorknob,
>>> Everybody get a turn.
>>>
>>> Least my mama ain't no railroad track,
>>> Lay out all over the country.
>>>
>>> _Retorts_
>>>
>>> Tell the truth, snaggle tooth.
>>> What you mean, jelly bean?
>>
>> See what I mean, jelly bean?
>> You heard what I said, nappy head.
>> Step out on the patio, daddy-o.
>> Make like Ezzard and hit the desert.
>>>
>>> Pg. 552:
>>> See you later, Alligator.
>>> After while, Crocodile.
>>>
>>> I dig all jive.
>>> That's the reason I stay alive.
>>>
>>> Your eyes may shine, your teeth may grit,
>>> But none of this food will you git.
>>
>> Baby, I'm 500% more man.
>> I lay more pipe than a plumber can.
>>
>> After I take a leak, I don't shake it off.
>> I take my left foot and kick it off.
>>
>> She got mo' ass than a toilet seat. (Said in response to the
>> previous observation) Better mo' ass than no ass.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
>>> Charleroi Mail Friday, December 01, 1950 Charleroi, Pennsylvania
>>> ...Wilson in v.luch eyes MAY YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. Hut none of my
>> money> Will you.....sides arc still alking indicates there MAY be
>> scTine ope
>>> left. When Girl Portia..
>>>
>>> Daily Register Saturday, December 23, 1950 Harrisburg, Illinois
>>> ...her: "YOUR eyes MAY shine. YOUR TEETH MAY GRIT. But none of my
>>> money Will you.....a Merry a New Year Holland's HOLIDAY MAY YOUR
>>> Holiday Cheer go on and on REES..
>>>
>>>
>>> Edwardsville Intelligencer Wednesday, July 08, 1964 Edwardsville,
>>> Illinois
>>> ...you DON'T want MY peaches, DON'T SHAKE MY TREE. When you saw a
>>> red-haired girl.....Neutral IS A Nice GearBut DON'T You Have Any
>>> GOLDWATER--ATRAGEDY..
>>>
>>>
>>> Lancaster Eagle Gazette Thursday, July 18, 1974 Lancaster, Ohio
>>> ...a brick. I'm so mean I MAKE MEDICINE SICK. The occasion for
>>> Ali's.....now than ever before which could MAKE up for some
>> parts .of
>>> my game that..
>>>
>>>
>>> Mountain Democrat Friday, February 17, 1989 Placerville, California
>>> ...I wIsh YOU luck, I wIsh YOU JOY, "I wIsh YOU fIrst a BABY
>> BOY. "AND
>>> when hIs.....haIr begIns to curl, I wIsh YOU then a BABY gIrl. AND
>>> when her..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Post Standard Friday, August 23, 1991 Syracuse, New York
>>> ...comment on that situation and I 'GOD DOESN'T LIKE UGLY. He'll
>>> handle the.....coming. He is such a strong Peters DOESN'T have
>> to be
>>> con- vinced of Seals..
>>>
>>> Post Standard Sunday, March 19, 2000 Syracuse, New York
>>> ...to the public. For more 435-2155. 'GOD DON'T LIKE UGLY' An
>>> inspirational gospel.....musi- DON'T LIKE comes to the Landmark 362
>>> S..
>>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Feb 14 20:57:53 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:57:53 -0500
Subject: CNN (Craven News Network); OT: Daily Candy
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.155753.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        In retailing, and I believe perhaps also in the restaurant business (which is a sufficiently affiliated industry that individual restaurants in a chain are sometimes called "stores), there is a distinction between a "soft opening" and a "grand opening."  The grand opening is the formal opening, advertised as such.  The soft opening is the beginning of an earlier period in which the store is open, but there is no advertising.  This initial period is used to address startup issues and to further train employees before the crush of customers occasioned by the grand opening.

John Baker



-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Bapopik at AOL.COM
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 12:59 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: CNN (Craven News Network); OT: Daily Candy



How could this restaurant "open tonight" when I ate there on Saturday? (After visiting another restaurant that Daily Candy said was open but was not.) And how could it be a "small but bustling spot" if it hasn't opened? Just asking.


From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Mon Feb 14 20:59:26 2005
From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 12:59:26 -0800
Subject: Hindoo Salad
In-Reply-To: <200502142056.j1EKuQ8q005468@mxe3.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.125926.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The question of whether to use Hindu or Hindoo in writing about the Raj
has come up in another list.  Someone quoted Hindoo Salad, "from the Fanny
Farmer cookbook," as an example of the spelling.  The salad is:

4 slices tomato on a bed of shredded lettuce.  On two of the slices, pile
shaved celery, on the other two, finely cut watercress.  Garnish with
small pieces of tomato shaped with circular cutter and serve with French
dressing.

There is some question as to what or how this has to do with
"Hindoo."  Barry, any clues?  Something to think about while you're
walking around the block!

Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 14 22:29:16 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 17:29:16 -0500
Subject: children's chants--Rise SAlly
In-Reply-To: <E1D0hZD-0004qa-00@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.172916.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 14, 2005, at 9:51 AM, Ed Keer wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Ed Keer <edkeer at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: children's chants--Rise SAlly
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Leadbelly recorded a version of this in the 40s as
> Little Sally Walker.

This sort of thing used to be quite common. Even as recently as the
'60's, a version of "Here We Go Looby-Loo" was recorded by Robert "Bob
B. Soxx" Breen (a fellow St. Louisan) & The Blue Jeans as "Here We Go
Loop-de-Loop." Around the same time, a recording was made of "Putting
and Ta'en," "Putnin-Tane," "Puddin-Tane," or however you may remember
it from your childhood.

-Wilson Gray

>
> It's on this release: Party songs/Sings and Plays
>
> http://www.oldies.com/product/view.cfm/id_56092.html
>
> Probably recorded it elsewhere as well.
>
>
> --- Maggie Thompson <mthom at RCN.COM> wrote:
>
>> I remember from my grade-school days (1948-54) a
>> playground game that
>> featured the chant about "Sally."  The kids formed a
>> circle, "Sally"
>> crouched in the middle, and the circle kids chanted:
>>
>> little Sally Ann
>> Sitting in the sand
>> Crying, crying,
>> For a young man.
>>
>> (the kid playing "Sally" would pretend to cry)
>>
>> Rise, Sally, rise
>> Wipe your crying eyes.
>> Turn to the east and
>> Turn to the west and
>> Turn to the one that
>> You love best.
>>
>> ("Sally" would act this out, pick another kid, who
>> then went into the middle
>> and it all started over.)
>>
>> There may have been more to this, but I don't
>> remember it.  I grew up in
>> Elizabeth, PA, about 15 miles from Pittsburgh, by
>> the way.
>>
>> Maggie Thompson
>>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
> http://my.yahoo.com
>


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Feb 14 23:14:00 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:14:00 +0000
Subject: the big picture
In-Reply-To: <200502142229.j1EMTNEW012020@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.231400.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OK, so what's so difficult that fellow logophiles can't help someone out who
has no online access to serious dictionaries to find out the earliest
reference to 'the big picture' or 'looney bin'?

Is it because I email from the UK and you are the ADS?

Hey, c'mon! I wade through 150 of your emails each weekend just to see if
there's anything relevant to my topic (sexual slang).

-Neil Crawford


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 14 23:36:40 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:36:40 -0800
Subject: the big picture
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.153640.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Neither is recorded before the 1940s, according to OED.  My own research is consistent with the OED's findings.

JL

neil <neil at TYPOG.CO.UK> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: neil
Subject: the big picture
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OK, so what's so difficult that fellow logophiles can't help someone out who
has no online access to serious dictionaries to find out the earliest
reference to 'the big picture' or 'looney bin'?

Is it because I email from the UK and you are the ADS?

Hey, c'mon! I wade through 150 of your emails each weekend just to see if
there's anything relevant to my topic (sexual slang).

-Neil Crawford

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Feb 15 00:07:07 2005
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:07:07 EST
Subject: "Swing Low, (Sweet) Chariot" (1871, 1872); "Roll, Jordan,
 Roll" ( > 1863)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.190707.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated  Sun, 13 Feb 2005 19:21:56 -0500,  Bapopik at AOL.COM writes
or quotes:

>  (AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
>  Schools for Contrabands.
>  Arthur's Home Magazine (1861-1870). Philadelphia: Nov 1863. Vol. 22, Iss.
5;
> p. 208 (5 pages)   Pg. 209:
>  The prevalent song, however, heard in every school, in church, and by the
> way-side, is that of "John Brown," which very much amuses our white
soldiers,
> particularly when the singers roll out,--
>
>  "We'll hang Jeff Davis on a sour apple tree!"
>
>  Other songs of the negroes are common, as, "The Wrestling Jacob," "Down in
> the lonesome valley," "Roll, Jordan, roll," "Heab'n shall-a be my home."
> Russell's "Diary" gives an account of these songs, as he heard them in his
> evening row over Broad River, on his way to Trescot's estate.

This implies "We'll hang Jeff Davis..." is an African-American song, both
because of the word "Contrabands" [escaped slaves] and the words "Other songs of
the negroes".

According to Bruce Catton _Mr. Lincoln's Army_ Garden City NJ: Dolphin Books,
1951, page 53 of the undated Dolphin paperback
<begin quote>
During its training-camp days the 12th [Massachusetts Regiment] had been
stationed at Fort Warren, in Boston Harbor, where the 2nd U.S. Infantry was also
stationed; and the regulars [i.e. the soliders of the 2nd Infantry] had picked
up a snappy tune---a camp-meeting revival hymn, written in Charleston, South
Carolina, around 1850, entitled "Say Brothers WIll We Meet You Over on the
Other Shore?"  What a battalion of U.S. regulars was doing knowing a gospel hymn
is beyond imagination, but they did know it, and because it was a fine song to
march to they had fitted new words to it: "John Brown's body lies a-mouldering
in the grave . . ."
<end quote>

Catton gives as his source _History of the 12th Massachusetts Volunteers_, by
Lieutenant Colonel Benjamin F. Cook.

As far as I know, in the 1850's camp-meeting revivals were attended by
whites, which makes it seem unlikely that the author (or folk authours?) of the
original tune was African-American.

      - James A. Landau


From douglas at NB.NET  Tue Feb 15 02:00:25 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:00:25 -0500
Subject: the big picture
In-Reply-To: <20050214233640.66913.qmail@web53909.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.210025.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

N'archive shows "loony bin" from 1935.

-- Doug Wilson


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Feb 15 03:23:48 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:23:48 -0500
Subject: the big picture
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.222348.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Crawford,

You didn't receive my e-mail to you sent directly?  So, I didn't get to
the library yet.  So, sue me!  The earliest dictionary evidence, as I
said, was 1919 (OED).

Sorry, if I sound annoyed.

Barnhart at highlands.com

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Monday, February 14,
2005 at 6:14 PM -0500 wrote:
>
>OK, so what's so difficult that fellow logophiles can't help someone out
>who
>has no online access to serious dictionaries to find out the earliest
>reference to 'the big picture' or 'looney bin'?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Feb 15 03:55:33 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:55:33 -0500
Subject: Re-Invent the Wheel (1964); NYC Subway Express/Local Anecdote
 (1913)
Message-ID: <MON.14.FEB.2005.225533.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

RE-INVENT THE WHEEL

Fred got to JSTOR before I did. OED didn't check? Some more of interest.

Also the two below, from JSTOR. The 1933 hit came up for "reinvent the wheel," but I didn't see that exact wording.

(JSTOR)
Review: [untitled review]
Author(s) of Review: Judith Shatnoff
Reviewed Work(s): Woman in the Dunes (Suna No Onna) by Hiroshi Teshigahara
Film Quarterly > Vol. 18, No. 2 (Winter, 1964), pp. 43-46
Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0015-1386%28196424%2918%3A2%3C43%3AWITD%28N%3E2.0.CO%3B2-4
Citation | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation

Pg. 45:
What we have here is a monumental effort to reconcile science with philosophy; that is, to affirm science in human terms, as a tool, even if it means metaphorically reducing the context of life to a level--to a sandpit--in which it is possible, metaphorically, to re-invent the wheel.


Case Law and Stare Decisis: Concerning "Prajudizienrecht in Amerika"
Max Radin
Columbia Law Review > Vol. 33, No. 2 (Feb., 1933), pp. 199-212
Stable URL: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0010-1958%28193302%2933%3A2%3C199%3ACLASDC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-B
Citation | Page of First Match | Print | Download | Save Citation

Pg. 200: The law has already been discovered by a man better fit to find it out. It is certainly futile to rediscover America or to reinvent the steam engine.

--------------------------------------------------------------
NYC SUBWAY EXPRESS/LOCAL ANECDOTE

I'll probably add this to my web site.


A TREASURY OF AMERICAN ANECDOTES
edited by B. A. Botkin
New York: Random House
1957

[From GREENWICH VILLAGE, TODAY & YESTERDAY (1949), pp. 25-26--ed.]

Pg. 186: _Chinese Philosopher in the Subway_
[Said] the Chinese diplomat and philosopher, Li Hung-chang, [on his visit to New York in 1896], when his official guide hurried him off one subway train into another a few feet away, "Why do we change?

"Oh, that train was a local."

"And what is this?"

"This is an express. It makes no stops till we reach Grand Central. We save six minutes."

A pause.

"And what," asked Ambassador Li, "are we going to do with that six minutes?


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
19 October 1913, Washington Post, pg. MS4:
_WHY SAVE SO MUCH TIME?_
[Harper's Magazine]

In no other metropolis of the world are similar expenditures contemplated for traffic purposes, and here one touches elemental reasons. Not only is the physical conformation of New York without a parallel, but nowehre else may be found a public so dominantly insistent, so temperamentally avaricious, on the subject of time. Moments spent in transit must be cut down to the irreducible minimum, no matter what prodigality of the same fleeting commodity may ensue. To illuminate this consider an actual occurrence. An Englishman who recently droped in at a friend's office on Twenty-seventh street was asked to dine. At the nearest subway station they took a local train to the Grand Central, there dived across the platform in an express, which disgorged them at Seventy-second street, where they entered another local that finally deposited them at the door of the Gothamite's apartment on Broadway and Seventy-ninth street. Followed then a smoke, a refreshing drink, and a most leisurely dinner. Halfway through his dessert, the Briton looked at his best.

"I've been wondering why we took three trains to get here?

Why? Wcsavedfor minutes!"

The Briton pondered. "I say," he questioned, thoughtfully, "what are you going to do with them?


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Feb 15 05:29:41 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:29:41 -0500
Subject: The Worms Crawled Out, the Worms Crawled In
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.002941.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        You may recall that we earlier discussed "The worms they crept in, and the worms they crept out," from the poem Alonzo the Brave and Fair Imogine, by Matthew Gregory Lewis (1796), and the apparently related line, "The worms crawl in, the worms crawl out," from a children's poem usually called The Hearse Song or The Infirmary Song.  The natural supposition is that the children's poem, which exists in many forms, was influenced by the 1796 poem.  However, I have recently come across an 1810 children's poem that includes the line about the worms crawling, and it may well be that the children's poem is older and influenced Lewis.  The children's poem, of course, was collected, not written, in 1810; it is older than that, though exactly how much older it is impossible to say.  This is from The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes 260 - 61 (I. & P. Opie 1951), citing Gammer Gurton's Garland (1810):

<<There was a lady all skin and bone,
Sure such a lady was never known:
It happened upon a certain day,
This lady went to church to pray.

When she came to the church stile,
There she did rest a little while;
When she came to the church yard,
There the bells so loud she heard.

When she came to the church door,
She stopped to rest a little more;
When she came the church within,
The parson prayed 'gainst pride and sin.

On looking up, on looking down,
She saw a dead man on the ground;
And from his nose unto his chin,
The worms crawled out, the worms crawled in.

Then she unto the parson said,
Shall I be so when I am dead?
O yes! O yes, the parson said,
You will be so when you are dead.

_Here the lady screams._>>


John Baker


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Feb 15 05:14:01 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:14:01 -0500
Subject: huffing and puffing
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.001401.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Surely you remember the Big Bad Wolf, who huffed and he puffed and he blew the house in of the first two little pigs.  The Three Little Pigs dates back at least to the 1840s.  That said, I should note that neither Making of America database has "huffing and puffing," and I did not find it on Westlaw before 1969, so it is not certain that the phrase had moved from the fairy tale to general use by the mid-Victorian period.  I would say that the book's use of the phrase is suspicious, but by no means dispositive.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of neil
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 4:37 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: huffing and puffing


I have been lent a book titled '61 Pimlico', supposedly the journal of one
mid-Victorian photographer named Henry Haylor (ed Bill Jay, Nazraeli Press,
Tucson, 1998).

I strongly suspect that it is  fabrication. However, the following sentence
caught my eye, and I wondered if anyone has any evidence of early use of the
phrase 'huffing and puffing'.

'We talked for hours, each of us huffing and puffing away like noisy steam
engines on different tracks until, in the middle of my most eloquent, and
pompous, tirades she closed my mouth with hers.'

-Neil Crawford


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Feb 15 05:15:11 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 00:15:11 -0500
Subject: huffing and puffing+
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.001511.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Merriam-Webster has "workout" from about 1894.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of neil
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 5:28 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: huffing and puffing+


Me again:

'Prince [of Wales - topical, or what?] or no I was primed for a quick
work-out with this bouncing beauty there and then.' - Ibid, 50

? earliest date for 'work-out'.

-Neil Crawford


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Feb 15 06:24:13 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:24:13 -0500
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.012413.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

NEW YORK CITY FOLKLORE
edited by B. A. Botkin
New York: Random House
1956

Pg. 4:
"Here's where we change to the express; we save five minutes."
"What are you going to do with them?"
[From NEW YORK AND THE STATE IT'S IN (1949) by Keith Jennison--ed.]

--------------------------------------------------------------
A TREASURY OF AMERICAN FOLKLORE
edited by B. A. Botkin
New York: Crown Publishers
1944

Pg. 768:
Knife and fork!
Bottle and cork!
That's the way to
Spell New York!

Pg. 779:
Whistling girls and crowing hens
Alway come to some bad ends.

Pg. 783:
Sam, Sam,
The dirty man,
Washed his face in a frying-pan,
Combed his hair with the back of a chair,
And danced with the toothache in the air.

My son John is a nice old man,
Washed his face in a frying-pan,
Combed his hair with a wagon-wheel,
And died with the toothache in his heel.

Pg. 790:
See a pin and pick it up,
All that day you will have luck;
See a pin and let it lay,
You'll have bad luck all that day.

Pg. 793:
Apples, peaches, creamery butter,
Here's the name of my true lover.

Pg. 795:
Betty, Betty, stumped her toe
On the way to Mexico;
On the way back she broke her back
Sliding on the railroad track.

Pg. 798:
Bless the meat,
Damn the skin,
Open your mouth
And cram it in.

Pg. 799:
If you don't like my apples,
Then don't shake my tree;
I'm not your boy friend,
He's after me.

Pg. 800:
First comes love,
Then comes marriage,
Then comes Edith
With a baby carriage.


LAY OF THE LAST MINSTREL
By HORACE REYNOLDS. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 6, 1938. p. 175 (1 page)
Lasses is ushering out minstrelsy in person. FOr three years he was with Field. I've seen him stop Field's shopw, taking fifteen encoures, with his "If You Don't Like My Peaches, Don't Shake My Tree."


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb 15 06:53:07 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 01:53:07 -0500
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
In-Reply-To: <E1D0w89-0003nq-00@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.015307.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 15, 2005, at 1:24 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and
> more
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> Pg. 790:
> See a pin and pick it up,
> _All that day you will have luck_;
> See a pin and let it lay,
> You'll have bad luck all that day.

All the day you'll have good luck

>
>
> Pg. 795:
> Betty, Betty, stumped her toe
> On the way to Mexico;
> On the way back she broke her back
> Sliding on the railroad track.

"... _stumped_ her toe" and not "... _stubbed_ her toe"?

Is this of BE or other Southern origin?

>
> Pg. 799:
> If you don't like my apples,
> Then don't shake my tree;
> I'm not your boy friend,
> He's after me.

These versions with "apples" instead of "peaches" are really strange.
And, in this particular case, the latter two lines make no sense when
combined with the first two.

Or, maybe, it's simply beyond my experience.

-Wilson Gray


From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Tue Feb 15 09:07:26 2005
From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:07:26 -0000
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
In-Reply-To: <1EC85EF2.60F3B62B.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.090726.0000.>

Barry Popik wrote:

> See a pin and pick it up,
> All that day you will have luck;
> See a pin and let it lay,
> You'll have bad luck all that day.

I prefer the version of the BBC Radio "I'm Sorry, I'll Read That
Again" team from 1967:

See a pin and pick it up,
And all that day, you'll have a pin ...

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <wordseditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 15 12:39:17 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 04:39:17 -0800
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.043917.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"See a PENNY, pick it up,
All the day you'll have good luck."

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 15, 2005, at 1:24 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and
> more
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> Pg. 790:
> See a pin and pick it up,
> _All that day you will have luck_;
> See a pin and let it lay,
> You'll have bad luck all that day.

All the day you'll have good luck

>
>
> Pg. 795:
> Betty, Betty, stumped her toe
> On the way to Mexico;
> On the way back she broke her back
> Sliding on the railroad track.

"... _stumped_ her toe" and not "... _stubbed_ her toe"?

Is this of BE or other Southern origin?

>
> Pg. 799:
> If you don't like my apples,
> Then don't shake my tree;
> I'm not your boy friend,
> He's after me.

These versions with "apples" instead of "peaches" are really strange.
And, in this particular case, the latter two lines make no sense when
combined with the first two.

Or, maybe, it's simply beyond my experience.

-Wilson Gray


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do?


From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Tue Feb 15 14:55:39 2005
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 09:55:39 EST
Subject: Re-Invent the Wheel (1964); NYC Subway Express/Local Anecdote
 (1913)
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.095539.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated  Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:55:33 -0500,  Bapopik at AOL.COM
quotes:

>  A TREASURY OF AMERICAN ANECDOTES
>  edited by B. A. Botkin
>  New York: Random House
>  1957
>
>  [From GREENWICH VILLAGE, TODAY & YESTERDAY (1949), pp. 25-26--ed.]
>
>  Pg. 186: _Chinese Philosopher in the Subway_
>  [Said] the Chinese diplomat and philosopher, Li Hung-chang, [on his visit
to
> New York in 1896], when his official guide hurried him off one subway train
> into another a few feet away, "Why do we change?

This anecdote is suspect, at least as to the date, because the first "subway"
(the IRT line from City Hall to 145th Street) did not open until October 27,
1904.  If the incident described happened in 1896, then it occurred on the
"El".  The first elevated railroad or "El" in New York was opened in 1870.  The
Els used steam power until 1900, but did have express and local trains well
before 1896.

      - James A. Landau


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 15 15:25:44 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:25:44 -0500
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
In-Reply-To: <1EC85EF2.60F3B62B.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.102544.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:24 AM -0500 2/15/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>Pg. 799:
>If you don't like my apples,
>Then don't shake my tree;
>I'm not your boy friend,
>He's after me.
>

The first couplet above (but not the second one*) has been a staple
in blues (and folk, and occasionally rock) songs for ages--well
before '44, I'd wager.  I've always assumed a direct physical
allusion here for the peaches and the tree, whether or not that
assumption is warranted, and as a result it seems odd to me when a
woman sings the relevant verse (from the perspective of a woman, that
is).  Of course, I can reconstruct a plausible referent for the
peaches in that case, but then the tree stumps me.

L

More frequent:

If you don't like my peaches,
Don't shake my tree
Stay out of my orchard
Let those peaches be.

or words to that effect


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Feb 15 15:37:53 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:37:53 -0500
Subject: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.103753.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Perhaps you database-searching guys will have better luck on
this. I'm looking for an example of _penny_ referring to a
U.S. government-issued one-cent coin, antedating 1831.  I am
aware that in the colonial period, and for some time
thereafter (until the U.S. developed the ability to mint
sufficient coinage for itself), the U.S. used British-issued
coin, and during this time, the word _penny_ was used in
America to refer to a British penny. But I'm looking for a
U.S. one.

Thanks. A correspondent at the American Numismatic Association
is absolutely sure that the term would have been in use
decades before 1831, but didn't have any examples at hand.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Feb 15 16:30:44 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 08:30:44 -0800
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
In-Reply-To: <1EC85EF2.60F3B62B.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.083044.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:24 AM -0500 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> Sam, Sam,
> The dirty man,
> Washed his face in a frying-pan,
> Combed his hair with the back of a chair,
> And danced with the toothache in the air.
>
> My son John is a nice old man,
> Washed his face in a frying-pan,
> Combed his hair with a wagon-wheel,
> And died with the toothache in his heel.

What are these verses, exactly, and the others quoted?  Some sound like
children's rhymes, but I know part of the second version of this one as
part of the song Old Dan Tucker.  I only remember that Old Dan Tucker
combed his hair with a wagon wheel, and as I understood it at the time,
died with a toothpick in his heel.  He probably washed his face in a frying
pan, but I wouldn't swear to it this many years later.  The chorus was:

Git out the way, Old Dan Tucker,
(repeat 2x)
You're too late to git your supper.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From bjv6xc at UMR.EDU  Tue Feb 15 17:24:00 2005
From: bjv6xc at UMR.EDU (Van Vertloo, Brian J. (UMR-Student))
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 11:24:00 -0600
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.112400.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As I recall, Mr. Tucker did indeed clean his countenance in a frying pan.  I don't remember anything about a toothpick, though...
 
Old Dan Tucker was a mighty man,
Washed his face in a frying pan,
Combed his hair with a wagon wheel,
Had a toothache in his heel.
 
[Chorus]
Get out the way, ....etc.
 
I sang this song in grade school some 12 years ago; they may have left the death part out of the verse for the childrens' sake.

--On Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:24 AM -0500 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> Sam, Sam,
> The dirty man,
> Washed his face in a frying-pan,
> Combed his hair with the back of a chair,
> And danced with the toothache in the air.
>
> My son John is a nice old man,
> Washed his face in a frying-pan,
> Combed his hair with a wagon-wheel,
> And died with the toothache in his heel.

What are these verses, exactly, and the others quoted?  Some sound like
children's rhymes, but I know part of the second version of this one as
part of the song Old Dan Tucker.  I only remember that Old Dan Tucker
combed his hair with a wagon wheel, and as I understood it at the time,
died with a toothpick in his heel.  He probably washed his face in a frying
pan, but I wouldn't swear to it this many years later.  The chorus was:

Git out the way, Old Dan Tucker,
(repeat 2x)
You're too late to git your supper.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From jprucher at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 15 18:30:55 2005
From: jprucher at YAHOO.COM (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:30:55 -0800
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.103055.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>
> At 1:24 AM -0500 2/15/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> >Pg. 799:
> >If you don't like my apples,
> >Then don't shake my tree;
> >I'm not your boy friend,
> >He's after me.
> >
>
> The first couplet above (but not the second one*) has been a staple
> in blues (and folk, and occasionally rock) songs for ages--well
> before '44, I'd wager.  I've always assumed a direct physical
> allusion here for the peaches and the tree, whether or not that
> assumption is warranted, and as a result it seems odd to me when a
> woman sings the relevant verse (from the perspective of a woman, that
> is).  Of course, I can reconstruct a plausible referent for the
> peaches in that case, but then the tree stumps me.
>

I've always associated these tree/fruit references with the Song of Songs (here
in the KJV):

7:7
This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes.

7:8
I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof:
now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy
nose like apples;

Whether or not any of the blues etc. uses allude to this directly is not
something I can say, but clearly it's symbolism that's been around for awhile.
(Although it rather seems that the palm tree/grape thing is something of a
mixed metaphor, but who am I to argue with Solomon?)

Jeff Prucher



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Tue Feb 15 18:32:31 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 10:32:31 -0800
Subject: Oops!
In-Reply-To: <1593078360.1108456244@[10.218.201.228]>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.103231.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I apologize for "introducing the subject" of Old Dan Tucker when, as I see
after catching up with some old e-mail, it's already been covered
extensively.

While I'm in mea culpa mode, I might as well correct a spelling error in an
earlier post on "a nickel a shtickel."  It should have been "St?ckerl," not
*"St?ckrl."

PMc

--On Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:30 AM -0800 "Peter A. McGraw"
<pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:

> --On Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:24 AM -0500 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>> Sam, Sam,
>> The dirty man,
>> Washed his face in a frying-pan,
>> Combed his hair with the back of a chair,
>> And danced with the toothache in the air.
>>
>> My son John is a nice old man,
>> Washed his face in a frying-pan,
>> Combed his hair with a wagon-wheel,
>> And died with the toothache in his heel.
>
> What are these verses, exactly, and the others quoted?  Some sound like
> children's rhymes, but I know part of the second version of this one as
> part of the song Old Dan Tucker.  I only remember that Old Dan Tucker
> combed his hair with a wagon wheel, and as I understood it at the time,
> died with a toothpick in his heel.  He probably washed his face in a
> frying pan, but I wouldn't swear to it this many years later.  The chorus
> was:
>
> Git out the way, Old Dan Tucker,
> (repeat 2x)
> You're too late to git your supper.
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> *****************************************************************
> Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Tue Feb 15 19:35:23 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:35:23 -0500
Subject: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.143523.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Jesse (et al.),

As I am sure you are aware, foreign currency was used in the U.S. until
the 1850's.  Therefore, it will prove difficult to ascertain the source of
the penny in many quotations, would it not?

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com

American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Tuesday, February 15,
2005 at 10:37 AM  wrote:


>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>
>Subject:      "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Perhaps you database-searching guys will have better luck on
>this. I'm looking for an example of _penny_ referring to a
>U.S. government-issued one-cent coin, antedating 1831.  I am
>aware that in the colonial period, and for some time
>thereafter (until the U.S. developed the ability to mint
>sufficient coinage for itself), the U.S. used British-issued
>coin, and during this time, the word _penny_ was used in
>America to refer to a British penny. But I'm looking for a
>U.S. one.
>
>Thanks. A correspondent at the American Numismatic Association
>is absolutely sure that the term would have been in use
>decades before 1831, but didn't have any examples at hand.
>
>Jesse Sheidlower
>OED
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Feb 15 19:37:00 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:37:00 -0500
Subject: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
In-Reply-To: <fc.000f555e01cfcff13b9aca00011eaf72.1cfd014@chain.highlands.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.143700.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Feb 15, 2005 at 02:35:23PM -0500, Barnhart wrote:
> Dear Jesse (et al.),
>
> As I am sure you are aware, foreign currency was used in the U.S. until
> the 1850's.  Therefore, it will prove difficult to ascertain the source of
> the penny in many quotations, would it not?

Yes. That's why I'm having trouble....

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Feb 15 20:02:40 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:02:40 -0600
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.140240.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Laurence Horn
> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 9:26 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree
> (1944) and more
>
>
> At 1:24 AM -0500 2/15/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> >Pg. 799:
> >If you don't like my apples,
> >Then don't shake my tree;
> >I'm not your boy friend,
> >He's after me.
> >
>
> The first couplet above (but not the second one*) has been a
> staple in blues (and folk, and occasionally rock) songs for
> ages--well before '44, I'd wager.

I can find it back to "PIPELINER BLUES No. 2" (written by: Moon
Mullican, 1941).

See also "Squeeze my lemon til the juice run down my leg"
from Travellin Riverside Blues by Robert Johnson, 1937.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb 15 20:03:33 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:03:33 -0500
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
In-Reply-To: <E1D14a4-0000sn-00@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.150333.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 15, 2005, at 10:25 AM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944)
> and more
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 1:24 AM -0500 2/15/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>> Pg. 799:
>> If you don't like my apples,
>> Then don't shake my tree;
>> I'm not your boy friend,
>> He's after me.
>>
>
> The first couplet above (but not the second one*) has been a staple
> in blues (and folk, and occasionally rock) songs for ages--well
> before '44, I'd wager.  I've always assumed a direct physical
> allusion here for the peaches and the tree, whether or not that
> assumption is warranted, and as a result it seems odd to me when a
> woman sings the relevant verse (from the perspective of a woman, that
> is).  Of course, I can reconstruct a plausible referent for the
> peaches in that case, but then the tree stumps me.
>
> L
>
> More frequent:
>
> If you don't like my peaches,
> Don't shake my tree
> Stay out of my orchard
> Let those peaches be.
>
> or words to that effect
>

And, of course, it's also a staple of R&B. For example, here's a verse
from a song sung from the male point of view. It was popular du'in' the
Ko-Rean Waw:

Well, you're the cutest thing
That I did ever see
I really love your peaches
Gonna shake your tree

Chorus:

Lovey-dovey
Lovey-dovey all the time

Does it remind you of someone who eventually decided to fly like an
eagle to the sea? And BTW, does anyone besides me remember the duet,
Peaches & Herb? They had a certain amount of cross-over success, as I
recall. If HDAS is ever completed, it may become impossible to slip
this kind of thing past the censors. "Peaches and herb"? How could
anyone miss that reference?

-Wilson


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Tue Feb 15 20:06:23 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 14:06:23 -0600
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.140623.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> And, of course, it's also a staple of R&B. For example,
> here's a verse from a song sung from the male point of view.
> It was popular du'in' the Ko-Rean Waw:
>
> Well, you're the cutest thing
> That I did ever see
> I really love your peaches
> Gonna shake your tree
>
> Chorus:
>
> Lovey-dovey
> Lovey-dovey all the time
>
> Does it remind you of someone who eventually decided to fly
> like an eagle to the sea?

And who was the victim of one of the STUPIDEST bowdlerizations of all
time:

"Funky kicks going down in the city" for
"Funky shit going down in the city".

1970's commercial radio was _so_ edgy.


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Feb 15 20:24:23 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:24:23 -0500
Subject: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.152423.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The following refers to a hypothetical or rhetorical coin, but still:
Hickory sold this morning for Five Dollars, and Oak for Four and a Half
a load, about one third higher than at any time during the past severe
winter months. . . . we have witnessed a shameful monopoly in this
article, carried on by certain persons: An odious proceeding that
causes extensive distress among the poor of our city by wringing from
them their last penny for the purchase of a single stick.  New-York
Evening Post, April 4, 1807, p. 2, col. 5

Also:
"My name is De Grass Griffin -- I am ten years old --  my father is a
boatman in Killingsworth, Connecticut  --  my mother left there for
Philadelphia last summer -- she parted from my father -- he don't take
care of me.  [He went to Philadelphia looking for his mother.]  When I
got there I found that she was dead -- I remained there, going about
town for about a week -- I then started to come back.  A gentleman in
Philadelphia gave me a twenty cent piece and eleven-penny bit, and a
five-penny bit --  I have the twenty cent piece yet.  I got into this
town yesterday morning -- had nothing to eat yesterday till in the
evening, when I got some clams at a little stand near the river.  I
calculate to start for home this morning, and to get a stage driver to
give me a ride."  Commercial Advertiser, January 18, 1821, p. 2, col. 1.
This is from the story told to an NYC magistrate by a wandering boy.


The great difficulty he meets with, is in procuring persons to come
forward as witnesses, although scores of poor people could testify to
the facts, if it were not for the reluctance they feel at the supposed
disgrace they should incur by being pointed at as common informers.
But let those greater offenders, who hire the petty rogues by giving
them ten percent of the profit to procure these insurances during the
day, and late at night make over the book to them, let these be watched
and severely punished.  I am informed that at some of the insurance
offices even a penny premium is taken from the lowest of their
customers.  New-York Evening Post, February 16, 1818, p. 2, col. ?
This refers to the practice of "policy" gambling.  There were various
legal lotteries at the time, all requiring a fairly costly bet.  The
numbers brokers (in modern terms) sold supposed insurance policies
against the possibility of a certain number being drawn.


The letter was delivered to Mr. Hopson by the penny post, yesterday.
New=York Enquirer, June 4, 1828, p. 2, col. 1


These are the only occurences of "penny" in my notes, mostly from NYC
newspapers, through 1830.  1500+ pages.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Tue Feb 15 20:36:08 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:36:08 -0500
Subject: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.153608.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I took a look at the older Westlaw cases.  There are frequent uses of English and American money in the same discussions.  I don't have any doubt that George's 1807, 1821, and 1818 citations refer (literally or rhetorically) to the English penny.  The 1828 citation might be to the American cent - we need to know whether the cost of the post was one cent or one English penny, or if there was some other reason why it was called the penny post.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of George Thompson
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 3:24 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?


The following refers to a hypothetical or rhetorical coin, but still:
Hickory sold this morning for Five Dollars, and Oak for Four and a Half
a load, about one third higher than at any time during the past severe
winter months. . . . we have witnessed a shameful monopoly in this
article, carried on by certain persons: An odious proceeding that
causes extensive distress among the poor of our city by wringing from
them their last penny for the purchase of a single stick.  New-York
Evening Post, April 4, 1807, p. 2, col. 5

Also:
"My name is De Grass Griffin -- I am ten years old --  my father is a
boatman in Killingsworth, Connecticut  --  my mother left there for
Philadelphia last summer -- she parted from my father -- he don't take
care of me.  [He went to Philadelphia looking for his mother.]  When I
got there I found that she was dead -- I remained there, going about
town for about a week -- I then started to come back.  A gentleman in
Philadelphia gave me a twenty cent piece and eleven-penny bit, and a
five-penny bit --  I have the twenty cent piece yet.  I got into this
town yesterday morning -- had nothing to eat yesterday till in the
evening, when I got some clams at a little stand near the river.  I
calculate to start for home this morning, and to get a stage driver to
give me a ride."  Commercial Advertiser, January 18, 1821, p. 2, col. 1.
This is from the story told to an NYC magistrate by a wandering boy.


The great difficulty he meets with, is in procuring persons to come
forward as witnesses, although scores of poor people could testify to
the facts, if it were not for the reluctance they feel at the supposed
disgrace they should incur by being pointed at as common informers.
But let those greater offenders, who hire the petty rogues by giving
them ten percent of the profit to procure these insurances during the
day, and late at night make over the book to them, let these be watched
and severely punished.  I am informed that at some of the insurance
offices even a penny premium is taken from the lowest of their
customers.  New-York Evening Post, February 16, 1818, p. 2, col. ?
This refers to the practice of "policy" gambling.  There were various
legal lotteries at the time, all requiring a fairly costly bet.  The
numbers brokers (in modern terms) sold supposed insurance policies
against the possibility of a certain number being drawn.


The letter was delivered to Mr. Hopson by the penny post, yesterday.
New=York Enquirer, June 4, 1828, p. 2, col. 1


These are the only occurences of "penny" in my notes, mostly from NYC
newspapers, through 1830.  1500+ pages.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb 15 20:49:51 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:49:51 -0500
Subject: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
In-Reply-To: <E1D19Jm-0003eu-01@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.154951.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 15, 2005, at 3:24 PM, George Thompson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       George Thompson <george.thompson at NYU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The great difficulty he meets with, is in procuring persons to come
> forward as witnesses, although scores of poor people could testify to
> the facts, if it were not for the reluctance they feel at the supposed
> disgrace they should incur by being pointed at as common informers.

"... the ... disgrace [of] being pointed at as common informers"

So, even as far back as at least 1818, no one wanted to gain the street
reputation of being someone who would "eat cheese on" [mid-'60's Los
Angeles] someone to the authorities.

-Wilson Gray


> But let those greater offenders, who hire the petty rogues by giving
> them ten percent of the profit to procure these insurances during the
> day, and late at night make over the book to them, let these be watched
> and severely punished.  I am informed that at some of the insurance
> offices even a penny premium is taken from the lowest of their
> customers.  New-York Evening Post, February 16, 1818, p. 2, col. ?
> This refers to the practice of "policy" gambling.  There were various
> legal lotteries at the time, all requiring a fairly costly bet.  The
> numbers brokers (in modern terms) sold supposed insurance policies
> against the possibility of a certain number being drawn.
>
>
> The letter was delivered to Mr. Hopson by the penny post, yesterday.
> New=York Enquirer, June 4, 1828, p. 2, col. 1
>
>
> These are the only occurences of "penny" in my notes, mostly from NYC
> newspapers, through 1830.  1500+ pages.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Tue Feb 15 22:05:14 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:05:14 -0500
Subject: fake & filch
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.170514.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

fake, as a noun:

This one is kinda neat.
The New-York Gazette & General Advertiser, May 11, 1807, p. 3, col. 2,
printed an announcement of a marriage.  Someone wrote next to
it "wrong: a fake".  And indeed, the next day's paper carried an angry
retraction: if we knew who had imposed on us, he should be publicly
chastized.

OED has (under noun2, an act of faking, &c.), 1827; as adj., 1775, 1890
(!); HDAS: has 3b, a fals rumor or false story, mid-19th century.

filch, as a noun meaning a thief:
        Last Saturday Darcus, the rascal, who stole his Excellency
Governor Tryon's silver cups as advertised in this paper, was brought
to town from New-Haven, where he was apprehended: this same Filch had
likewise been tolerably successful about the house of our late
commander in chief. . . .
        Rivington's New-York Gazetteer, July 15, 1773, p. 2, cols. 3-4

OED: (noun, sense 3, One who filches or steals: a filcher. Obs.) 1775 &
1810 (only citations); not in HDAS in this sense.
"Filch" is capitalized in this passage, although this paper did not
routinely capitalize all nouns, unlike other mid-century papers.  This
makes me wonder whether the editor had in mind the name of a thievish
character in some play or novel, but I haven't been able to find one,
in a quick check.

GAT

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Tue Feb 15 23:47:41 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:47:41 -0500
Subject: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.184741.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My philatelic background says the "penny post" was a strictly English term.
As the resident numismatist on the board(but by no means the scholar when it
comes to numismatic terms), I"ll search my library.

Sam Clements
----- Original Message -----
From: "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?


>         I took a look at the older Westlaw cases.  There are frequent uses
of English and American money in the same discussions.  I don't have any
doubt that George's 1807, 1821, and 1818 citations refer (literally or
rhetorically) to the English penny.  The 1828 citation might be to the
American cent - we need to know whether the cost of the post was one cent or
one English penny, or if there was some other reason why it was called the
penny post.
>
> John Baker
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
> Of George Thompson
> Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 3:24 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "penny" pre-1831 for 'U.S. cent'?
>
>
> The following refers to a hypothetical or rhetorical coin, but still:
> Hickory sold this morning for Five Dollars, and Oak for Four and a Half
> a load, about one third higher than at any time during the past severe
> winter months. . . . we have witnessed a shameful monopoly in this
> article, carried on by certain persons: An odious proceeding that
> causes extensive distress among the poor of our city by wringing from
> them their last penny for the purchase of a single stick.  New-York
> Evening Post, April 4, 1807, p. 2, col. 5
>
> Also:
> "My name is De Grass Griffin -- I am ten years old --  my father is a
> boatman in Killingsworth, Connecticut  --  my mother left there for
> Philadelphia last summer -- she parted from my father -- he don't take
> care of me.  [He went to Philadelphia looking for his mother.]  When I
> got there I found that she was dead -- I remained there, going about
> town for about a week -- I then started to come back.  A gentleman in
> Philadelphia gave me a twenty cent piece and eleven-penny bit, and a
> five-penny bit --  I have the twenty cent piece yet.  I got into this
> town yesterday morning -- had nothing to eat yesterday till in the
> evening, when I got some clams at a little stand near the river.  I
> calculate to start for home this morning, and to get a stage driver to
> give me a ride."  Commercial Advertiser, January 18, 1821, p. 2, col. 1.
> This is from the story told to an NYC magistrate by a wandering boy.
>
>
> The great difficulty he meets with, is in procuring persons to come
> forward as witnesses, although scores of poor people could testify to
> the facts, if it were not for the reluctance they feel at the supposed
> disgrace they should incur by being pointed at as common informers.
> But let those greater offenders, who hire the petty rogues by giving
> them ten percent of the profit to procure these insurances during the
> day, and late at night make over the book to them, let these be watched
> and severely punished.  I am informed that at some of the insurance
> offices even a penny premium is taken from the lowest of their
> customers.  New-York Evening Post, February 16, 1818, p. 2, col. ?
> This refers to the practice of "policy" gambling.  There were various
> legal lotteries at the time, all requiring a fairly costly bet.  The
> numbers brokers (in modern terms) sold supposed insurance policies
> against the possibility of a certain number being drawn.
>
>
> The letter was delivered to Mr. Hopson by the penny post, yesterday.
> New=York Enquirer, June 4, 1828, p. 2, col. 1
>
>
> These are the only occurences of "penny" in my notes, mostly from NYC
> newspapers, through 1830.  1500+ pages.
>
> GAT
>
> George A. Thompson
> Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
> Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 16 02:22:58 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:22:58 -0800
Subject: "among" = between
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.182258.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In my whippersnapper days, teachers insisted that "among" be used incertain situations where "between" seemed to come more naturally to many speakers. For example, "A fistfight broke out between the professors" would be correct only if there were two professors involved. For three or more, "among" was the only acceptable word.  The linguistic theory, when one was advanced, was that "'between' comes from 'twain' and 'twain' means 'two.'"

The years lengthen into decades.... Now, perhaps predictably, I find an example of hypercorrectness, "among" used where only "between" should be acceptable. Indeed, to me, "between" is the only natural choice.

OED does not comment on the issue under the relevant sense of "among", "9. Of the relation of reciprocal action between [sic] the members of a group."


2003 Dale Van Blair Looking Back: A Tail Gunner's View of World War II  59 :  We were a very compatible group and I was never aware of a disagreement among any two of us.

I certainly can't recall ever noticing this usage in freshman writing. ( In the freshman writing I am familiar with, obvious hypercorrections are rare indeed.)

Besides having flown eighteen combat missions in B-24 aircraft during World War II, Dale Van Blair author is a retired high-school English teacher.

JL


---------------------------------
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From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 16 02:35:47 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:35:47 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Continental"
In-Reply-To: <200502100117.j1A1HOIn016043@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.213547.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

continental (OED 1760)

1755 John Shebbeare _A Letter to the People of England_ (ed. 2) 22
(Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  His preposterous Conduct begins,
foments and fosters a Continental War.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 16 02:40:49 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:40:49 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Thermal"
In-Reply-To: <200502100117.j1A1HOIn016043@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.214049.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

thermal (OED 1756)

1742  Meighan, Christopher, Sir. A treatise of the nature and powers of
Baregess baths and waters. 45 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  Of
the various Differences which are found in Thermal Fountains.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 16 02:45:17 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:45:17 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Avalanche"
In-Reply-To: <200502100117.j1A1HOIn016043@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.214517.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

avalanche (OED 1771)

1744  Windham, William. An account of the glacieres or ice alps in Savoy.
5 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  _Avalanches_ of Snow were
fallen.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 16 02:46:30 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 18:46:30 -0800
Subject: "courtesy" as preposition
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.184630.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is very common but doesn't seem to be in OED.  "By the courtesy of" has been gradually reduced to "courtesy of" and finally just "courtesy."


1944 [M/Sgt. Jules F. Segal, ed.] The Jolly Rogers : The Best Damn Heavy Bomb Unit in the World [,] Southwest Pacific 1942-1944  (rpt. Atglen, PA: Schiffer, 1997) 13 : By the time the Jolly Rogers were ready for the dragon-shaped isle of New Guinea, there were 29 vessels less in the Jap Navy, and 91 Zeros less in the Jap Air Force, courtesy this outfit alone.

JL

__________________________________________________
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From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 16 02:49:54 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 21:49:54 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Inorganic"
In-Reply-To: <200502100117.j1A1HOIn016043@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.15.FEB.2005.214954.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

inorganic (OED 1794)

1729 Daniel Turner _A Discourse Concerning Gleets_ 81 (Eighteenth Century
Collections Online)  _Chance cannot make an Organic Body._ Nor an
_Inorganic_ neither, which if it can or cannot, is as little.

Fred Shapiro



--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb 16 07:48:00 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 02:48:00 -0500
Subject: Change the name of Arkansas? (1910); See a pin... (1870)
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.024800.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

CHANGE THE NAME OF ARKANSAS?

What is the date for the speech? 1881? What date does Fred have?

I've looked at:

American Periodical Series
Making of America
American Memory (but re-check this; it gives bad hits)
Newspaperarchive
Proquest Historical Newspapers
Brooklyn Daily Eagle
Colorado newspapers
Missouri newspapers
Utah newspapers

Where is this famous Arkansas/Arkansaw speech? Surely, it was widely reprinted within 20 years of its performance?

(GOOGLE)
http://comp.uark.edu/~sboss/hellno.htm
A legendary piece of American folklore, recounted in the book "Folklore of Romantic Arkansas" (Allsopp, 1931), relates the story of a proposal to change the name of the state of Arkansas by legislative enactment during the latter 1800?s. It is said that this question was actually introduced at a session of the Legislature, and that a member delivered a fiery speech on the subject to the assembly. "Change the name of Arkansas? Hell, No!" he is supposed to have declared. Apparently, however, investigations of state archives have failed to find any official record of such a deliverance, though it is frequently referred to at banquets and other convivial occasions where it is usually recited in wickedly lurid terms. Botkin (1944) provides two reprinted versions of the supposed famous oratory which are combined below to let the reader know how we feel about Arkansas!

(GOOGLE)
http://snafu.freedom.org/pub/arkansaw-history.html


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
HUMAN HEADS ARE EVIDENCE IN CASE; ADVENTURERS' CLUB MEMBER ACCUSED OF SEEKING FALSE REPUTATION
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 29, 1924. p. 10 (1 page):
It may have been impossible to change the name of Arkansas but it is expected that the name of South Pasadena can be changed to San Pasqual without such an outburst or oratory as attended the proposal to alter the cognomen of the Apple Blossom State.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Lima Daily News  Sunday, December 04, 1910 Lima, Ohio
...might as wen try to CHANGE THE NAME OF ARKANSAS as to send John R. to.....race in an as nay it will decidedly CHANGE THE pect OF and are thowj who..


   The Mexia Daily News  Monday, April 02, 1923 Mexia, Texas
...opposing the changing OF the NAME OF ARKANSAS has descendants living.....use the same sort OF language that the ARKANSAS solon used we will have to..


--------------------------------------------------------------
"SEE A PIN AND PICK IT UP..."

It appears that "pin" is earlier than "penny."


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
DREAM OF THE LITTLE GIRL WHO WOULD NOT PICK UP A PIN.
Mrs A M Diaz. Our Young Folks. An Illustrated Magazine for Boys and Girls (1865-1873). Boston: Mar 1870. Vol. 6, Iss. 3; p. 178 (8 pages)
First page:
"See a pin and pick it up,
All the day you'll have good luck;
See a pin and let it lie,
Come to sorrow by and by."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb 16 08:59:53 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 03:59:53 -0500
Subject: Shaggy Story (1929); Combed hair with wagon wheel (1931); Inquire
 within/Gin (1922)
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.035953.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

INQUIRE WITHIN/DRINKING GIN

This is a pretty popular one.

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
IN the WAKE of the NEWS; DO YOU REMEMBER WAY BACK WHEN:
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Apr 3, 1922. p. 8 (1 page):
For Rent signs read: "Rooms for rent, inquire within, people turned out for drinking gin"?--Ginger.

(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Post Standard  Friday, August 04, 1972 Syracuse, New York
...of fifteen cents. Rooms for INQUIRE WITHIN A lady got put out For DRINKING.....et AND they a AND go to I am not a DRINKING AND I am not going to a so I..
Pg. 19, cols. 7-8:
_Readers Send Us_
_Jump Rope Ditties_

(Col. 8--ed.)
Rooms for rent,
Inquire within
A lady got put out
For drinking gin.
If she promises
To drink no more
Here's the key
To (--) door.

--------------------------------------------------------------
COMBED HIS HAIR WITH A WAGON WHEEL

I search for these "Dan Tucker" lyrics.

(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
   Singing Games oF the Southern Mountains
By CARL HOLLIDAY. Overland Monthly and Out West Magazine (1868-1935). San Francisco: Dec 1931. Vol. Vol. 89, Iss. No. 12; p. 9 (3 pages)
Second page:
Old Dan Tucker was a fine man,
He washed his face in the frying pan.
He comed (sic) his hair with a wagon wheel,
And died with a tooth-ache in his heel.
Get out of the way for Old Dan Tucker.
Get out of the way for Old Dan Tucker.

Third page:
First to the courthouse, then to jail.
Hang my hat on a rusty nail;
Oh, come along, Jim, along, Josie.
Oh, come along, Jim, along, Joe.
Nail it broke, down it fell.
Mashed my hat all to hell.
Oh, come along, Jim, along, Josie.
Oh, come along, Jim, along, Joe.

--------------------------------------------------------------
SHAGGY STORY

Botkin lists this as a "shaggy story." It's popular still. When I used to look for something, my father would remark, "Look over here. The light is better."


SIDEWALKS OF AMERICA
edited by B. A. Botkin
Indianapolis: Bobbs-Merrill
1954

Pg. 515:
Another famous gag of this sort and period took place between a cop and a barfly on Times Square. The cop asks the questions and the barfly answers:

What are you looking for?
I lost a ten-dollar bill on Thirty-Eight Street and Sixth Avenue.
Then what are you looking around here for?
There's more light here.


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
FOOTLIGHTS AND SHADOWS
By JOHN J. DALY. The Washington Post (1877-1954). Washington, D.C.: Feb 24, 1929. p. A4 (1 page):
'TWAS a very brilliantly lighted theater, outside. Taxicabs and private cars rolling in front of the entrance-way set out their patrons at the curb. A great gathering, just before the curtain time, milled and mobbed toward the lobby. AMongst them, a man slightly under the influence of a forbidden beverage, careened and swayed, keeping his eyes, the while, focused on the pavement.

Finally, a policeman, interested, waded through the multitude, asked what the stranger was doing; looking as if he had lost something.

"I have," affirmed the man, "I lost my watch and I'm looking for it.

"You lost your watch! Where do you think you lost it?" asked the cop.

"Out in Rock Creek Park," said the man.

The officer was exasperated. "If you lost your watch in Rock Creek Park," he bellowed, "why are you looking for it here?"

"Because," explained the man, "there's more light here."


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
   Gazette Bulletin  Friday, April 02, 1937 Williamsport, Pennsylvania
...r "Why don't you look tHERE "THERE's MORE LIGHT HERE." NAUOtiix SPRING 1 wish.....MORE Judges in hear, MORE jto confer, MORE judges to discuss. MORE judges to..

   Frederick Post  Thursday, June 04, 1942 Frederick, Maryland
...IT TWO DOWN THE STREET.' THE LIGHT IS BETTER I'M LOOKING FOR rAV QUARTER i can.....time 32. Bundles oJ grain 33. Portable LIGHT 34. Except 25. Narrator 36..
(MUTT AND JEFF version!--ed.)

   Lima News  Monday, September 11, 1972 Lima, Ohio
...But I'd rather look here, because the LIGHT IS BETTER.' For those who warn.....that he had lost hIS keys AND was LOOKING for them. "The policeman joined..


   Daily Herald  Monday, June 13, 1988 Chicago, Illinois
...LOOKING for a lost item under a street LIGHT because the LIGHT IS BETTER even.....portfolio reg- ularly provided a BETTER return than the the small..


   Post Standard  Wednesday, February 19, 2003 Syracuse, New York
...wallet where you lost the man 'the LIGHT IS BETTER over here.'' I'm not.....friend7'' the vISitor in- quired. am LOOKING for my the other man replied..


   Chronicle Telegram  Wednesday, February 19, 2003 Elyria, Ohio
...lost "Because, the man replied, "the LIGHT IS BETTER over here. I'm not much.....on real money They are partISan AND LOOKING for a political ISsue. But they..


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Wed Feb 16 10:17:19 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:17:19 +0000
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
In-Reply-To: <200502152002.j1FK2g0m031781@i-194-106-56-10.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.101719.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 15/2/05 8:02 pm, Mullins, Bill at Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL wrote:


>> At 1:24 AM -0500 2/15/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>>> Pg. 799:
>>> If you don't like my apples,
>>> Then don't shake my tree;
>>> I'm not your boy friend,
>>> He's after me.
>>>
>>
>> The first couplet above (but not the second one*) has been a
>> staple in blues (and folk, and occasionally rock) songs for
>> ages--well before '44, I'd wager.
>
> I can find it back to "PIPELINER BLUES No. 2" (written by: Moon
> Mullican, 1941).
>
> See also "Squeeze my lemon til the juice run down my leg"
> from Travellin Riverside Blues by Robert Johnson, 1937.

Different lemons (and sense) can be found in:

Please let me squeeze your lemons
While I'm in your lonesome town.
Now let me squeeze your lemons, baby,
Until my love come down.
- Charlie Pickett, 'Let me squeeze your lemons', NYC, 3 August 1937


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 16 12:07:16 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:07:16 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Entomology"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502152143250.731-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.070716.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

entomology (OED 1766)

1764 _General Magazine of Arts and Sciences_ May 259 (Eighteenth Century
Collections Online)  Observations on the Animal Kingdom.  Translated from
the Latin of Dr. Linnaeus. ... I undertook to write my System of Zoology.
In the _Tetrapodology_ (or History of Quadrupeds) I have chiefly deduced
the Orders of the Animals from the Teeth ... in _Entomology_ (or the
History of Insects) from the _Antennae_ and Wings, &c.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 16 14:56:05 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:56:05 -0800
Subject: Change the name of Arkansas? (1910); See a pin... (1870)
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.065605.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To quote Michael Simmons's article online:
"According to Fred W. Allsop, in Folklore of Romantic Arkansas, (1931, The Grolier Society), Vol. 1, pp 35-36, a Concurrent Resolution of the Arkansas State Legislature in 1881 declared that the only correct pronunciation was (resolution, as quoted by Allsop):
"that received by the French from the Native Indians, and committed in writing by the French word representing the sound; and in accordance with same it should be pronounced in three syllables, with the final 's' silent, the 'a' in each syllable with the Italian sound, and the accent on the first and last syllables." "

There never was a "Sen. Cassius M. Johnson," the legislator sometimes credited with the speech.

Simmons makes the interesting suggestion that the original "speech" may have been written anonymously by Mark Twain.  Undoubtedly the topic would have appealed to him, and the style is certainly reminiscent of Twain's.

Gershon Legman discussed the speech about 30 years ago, but my copy of the article is packed up somewhere. ISTR his conclusions were the same as Simmons's.

JL



Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: Change the name of Arkansas? (1910); See a pin... (1870)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CHANGE THE NAME OF ARKANSAS?

What is the date for the speech? 1881? What date does Fred have?

I've looked at:

American Periodical Series
Making of America
American Memory (but re-check this; it gives bad hits)
Newspaperarchive
Proquest Historical Newspapers
Brooklyn Daily Eagle
Colorado newspapers
Missouri newspapers
Utah newspapers

Where is this famous Arkansas/Arkansaw speech? Surely, it was widely reprinted within 20 years of its performance?

(GOOGLE)
http://comp.uark.edu/~sboss/hellno.htm
A legendary piece of American folklore, recounted in the book "Folklore of Romantic Arkansas" (Allsopp, 1931), relates the story of a proposal to change the name of the state of Arkansas by legislative enactment during the latter 1800???s. It is said that this question was actually introduced at a session of the Legislature, and that a member delivered a fiery speech on the subject to the assembly. "Change the name of Arkansas? Hell, No!" he is supposed to have declared. Apparently, however, investigations of state archives have failed to find any official record of such a deliverance, though it is frequently referred to at banquets and other convivial occasions where it is usually recited in wickedly lurid terms. Botkin (1944) provides two reprinted versions of the supposed famous oratory which are combined below to let the reader know how we feel about Arkansas!

(GOOGLE)
http://snafu.freedom.org/pub/arkansaw-history.html


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
HUMAN HEADS ARE EVIDENCE IN CASE; ADVENTURERS' CLUB MEMBER ACCUSED OF SEEKING FALSE REPUTATION
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 29, 1924. p. 10 (1 page):
It may have been impossible to change the name of Arkansas but it is expected that the name of South Pasadena can be changed to San Pasqual without such an outburst or oratory as attended the proposal to alter the cognomen of the Apple Blossom State.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
Lima Daily News Sunday, December 04, 1910 Lima, Ohio
...might as wen try to CHANGE THE NAME OF ARKANSAS as to send John R. to.....race in an as nay it will decidedly CHANGE THE pect OF and are thowj who..


The Mexia Daily News Monday, April 02, 1923 Mexia, Texas
...opposing the changing OF the NAME OF ARKANSAS has descendants living.....use the same sort OF language that the ARKANSAS solon used we will have to..


--------------------------------------------------------------
"SEE A PIN AND PICK IT UP..."

It appears that "pin" is earlier than "penny."


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
DREAM OF THE LITTLE GIRL WHO WOULD NOT PICK UP A PIN.
Mrs A M Diaz. Our Young Folks. An Illustrated Magazine for Boys and Girls (1865-1873). Boston: Mar 1870. Vol. 6, Iss. 3; p. 178 (8 pages)
First page:
"See a pin and pick it up,
All the day you'll have good luck;
See a pin and let it lie,
Come to sorrow by and by."



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 16 15:34:51 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 07:34:51 -0800
Subject: Change the name of Arkansas? (1910); See a pin... (1870)
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.073451.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The University of Virginia reproduces online a poem by Emory Pottle about the death in combat of his friend James R. McConnell of the Lafayette Escadrille in 1917.  The poem, entitled "Mac," was apparently written shortly after McConnell was killed.  It includes the following lines:

Good old Mac at a party!
A party to us was something
to drink,
A fire, and no work;
Mac reciting:
"Change the name of Arkansaw?
By God, sir--"

JL


Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:

To quote Michael Simmons's article online:
"According to Fred W. Allsop, in Folklore of Romantic Arkansas, (1931, The Grolier Society), Vol. 1, pp 35-36, a Concurrent Resolution of the Arkansas State Legislature in 1881 declared that the only correct pronunciation was (resolution, as quoted by Allsop):
"that received by the French from the Native Indians, and committed in writing by the French word representing the sound; and in accordance with same it should be pronounced in three syllables, with the final 's' silent, the 'a' in each syllable with the Italian sound, and the accent on the first and last syllables." "

There never was a "Sen. Cassius M. Johnson," the legislator sometimes credited with the speech.

Simmons makes the interesting suggestion that the original "speech" may have been written anonymously by Mark Twain.  Undoubtedly the topic would have appealed to him, and the style is certainly reminiscent of Twain's.

Gershon Legman discussed the speech about 30 years ago, but my copy of the article is packed up somewhere. ISTR his conclusions were the same as Simmons's.

JL



Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: Change the name of Arkansas? (1910); See a pin... (1870)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CHANGE THE NAME OF ARKANSAS?

What is the date for the speech? 1881? What date does Fred have?

I've looked at:

American Periodical Series
Making of America
American Memory (but re-check this; it gives bad hits)
Newspaperarchive
Proquest Historical Newspapers
Brooklyn Daily Eagle
Colorado newspapers
Missouri newspapers
Utah newspapers

Where is this famous Arkansas/Arkansaw speech? Surely, it was widely reprinted within 20 years of its performance?

(GOOGLE)
http://comp.uark.edu/~sboss/hellno.htm
A legendary piece of American folklore, recounted in the book "Folklore of Romantic Arkansas" (Allsopp, 1931), relates the story of a proposal to change the name of the state of Arkansas by legislative enactment during the latter 1800???s. It is said that this question was actually introduced at a session of the Legislature, and that a member delivered a fiery speech on the subject to the assembly. "Change the name of Arkansas? Hell, No!" he is supposed to have declared. Apparently, however, investigations of state archives have failed to find any official record of such a deliverance, though it is frequently referred to at banquets and other convivial occasions where it is usually recited in wickedly lurid terms. Botkin (1944) provides two reprinted versions of the supposed famous oratory which are combined below to let the reader know how we feel about Arkansas!

(GOOGLE)
http://snafu.freedom.org/pub/arkansaw-history.html


(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
HUMAN HEADS ARE EVIDENCE IN CASE; ADVENTURERS' CLUB MEMBER ACCUSED OF SEEKING FALSE REPUTATION
Los Angeles Times (1886-Current File). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 29, 1924. p. 10 (1 page):
It may have been impossible to change the name of Arkansas but it is expected that the name of South Pasadena can be changed to San Pasqual without such an outburst or oratory as attended the proposal to alter the cognomen of the Apple Blossom State.


(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
Lima Daily News Sunday, December 04, 1910 Lima, Ohio
...might as wen try to CHANGE THE NAME OF ARKANSAS as to send John R. to.....race in an as nay it will decidedly CHANGE THE pect OF and are thowj who..


The Mexia Daily News Monday, April 02, 1923 Mexia, Texas
...opposing the changing OF the NAME OF ARKANSAS has descendants living.....use the same sort OF language that the ARKANSAS solon used we will have to..


--------------------------------------------------------------
"SEE A PIN AND PICK IT UP..."

It appears that "pin" is earlier than "penny."


(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
DREAM OF THE LITTLE GIRL WHO WOULD NOT PICK UP A PIN.
Mrs A M Diaz. Our Young Folks. An Illustrated Magazine for Boys and Girls (1865-1873). Boston: Mar 1870. Vol. 6, Iss. 3; p. 178 (8 pages)
First page:
"See a pin and pick it up,
All the day you'll have good luck;
See a pin and let it lie,
Come to sorrow by and by."



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 16 17:37:11 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 12:37:11 -0500
Subject: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944) and more
In-Reply-To: <E1D1MFK-0001en-00@mx19.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.123711.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 16, 2005, at 5:17 AM, neil wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       neil <neil at TYPOG.CO.UK>
> Subject:      Re: Knife & Fork, Like My Peaches & Shake My Tree (1944)
> and more
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> on 15/2/05 8:02 pm, Mullins, Bill at Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL wrote:
>
>
>>> At 1:24 AM -0500 2/15/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>>>> Pg. 799:
>>>> If you don't like my apples,
>>>> Then don't shake my tree;
>>>> I'm not your boy friend,
>>>> He's after me.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The first couplet above (but not the second one*) has been a
>>> staple in blues (and folk, and occasionally rock) songs for
>>> ages--well before '44, I'd wager.
>>
>> I can find it back to "PIPELINER BLUES No. 2" (written by: Moon
>> Mullican, 1941).
>>
>> See also "Squeeze my lemon til the juice run down my leg"
>> from Travellin Riverside Blues by Robert Johnson, 1937.
>
> Different lemons (and sense) can be found in:
>
> Please let me squeeze your lemons
> While I'm in your lonesome town.
> Now let me squeeze your lemons, baby,
> Until my love come down.

"Until my _love come down_"

This phrase should also be of historical interest. There was once a
song - 1940's? 1950's - with the line and/or the title, "Down came my
heavy love." "Bring/brought my love down," "my love came down," etc.
are other popular versions. I'd start looking for it myself, but today
is a *very* busy day for me. If this is already in HDAS or wherever, I
apologize.

-Wilson Gray

> - Charlie Pickett, 'Let me squeeze your lemons', NYC, 3 August 1937
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 16 17:38:13 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 09:38:13 -0800
Subject: "Change the Name of Arkansas"
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.093813.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

J. Frank Dobie, Guide to Life and Literature of the Southwest, ed. 2 (Dallas: SMU Press, 1953), ch. VIII (also online) :

"'Change the Name of Arkansas'...in 1919 in officers' barracks at Bordeaux, France, I heard a lusty individual recite [it] with as many variations as Roxane of Cyrano de Bergerac wanted in love-making."

JL


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb 16 22:16:05 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:16:05 -0500
Subject: FYI: Proquest databases update
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.171605.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

LOS ANGELES TIMES & CHICAGO TRIBUNE

Still no movement in the Los Angeles Times. This "California Roll" is going to take me forever. "Granola" and "trail mix," too. The whole nine yards.

The Chicago Tribune is allegedly at January 1960, but there's a gap in 1959. I check for the word "slang."

1. Obituary 2 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jan 4, 1960. p. G6 (1 page)

   2. Other 4 -- No Title
Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963). Chicago, Ill.: Jun 30, 1959. p. 5 (1 page)

--------------------------------------------------------------
PROQUEST "RETROSPECTIVES"

"Retrospectives" is an historical e-newsletter from ProQuest that just arrived in the mail.

SCHOMBURG--This is a "mid-year release." So if I don't solve "hawk/Hawkins" now, it should be solved soon.

BOSTON GLOBE--Due March 2005. Which is...two weeks? Don't bet on that.

PERIODICALS CONTENTS INDEX--Full text has been expanded. I hadn't used it much, but it will be a great help if it's completed.


http://www.il.proquest.com/division/pr/05/20050114E.shtml
ProQuest and New York Public Library Schomburg Center Announce New Black Studies Resource

Schomburg Studies on the Black Experience offers original essays, historical content for scholars and students

ANN ARBOR, Mich., January 14, 2005 -- ProQuest Information and Learning, in association with the New York Public Library and the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture, announces the upcoming release of Schomburg Studies on the Black Experience. The new electronic database, set for mid-year release, will offer exciting new tools for innovative Black Studies research and teaching for scholars and students in both academic and public libraries


http://www.il.proquest.com/division/pr/04/20040924.shtml
ProQuest Adds Enhanced Searches, OpenURL Support to PCI

PCI Full Text now offers hit highlighting, more searchable full-text, Z39.50 support

ANN ARBOR, Mich., September 24, 2004 -- ProQuest Information and Learning has added new features and functionality to a scholarly favorite, the Periodicals Contents Index (PCI) suite of research databases. PCI and PCI Full Text now offer enhanced searching, OpenURL support, and Z39.50 compatibility. ProQuest Information and Learning, a unit of ProQuest Company, creates and publishes databases for libraries and educational institutions worldwide.

PCI is an electronic index to millions of articles published in 4,547 periodicals in the humanities and social sciences. It offers researchers quick access to every article relevant to their particular field of study.  PCI Full Text provides online access to more than 4 million pages in three collections of 100 humanities and social sciences journals each, an expanding virtual library of retrospective journals from 1800-1991.  Users link seamlessly from the bibliographic data in PCI to the digitized journal pages available in PCI Full Text.


http://www.il.proquest.com/division/pr/05/20050114D.shtml
The Boston Globe Joins ProQuest Historical Newspapers? Collection

Latest addition to full-run historical newspapers will launch in March

ANN ARBOR, Mich., January 14, 2005 -- ProQuest Information and Learning announced that it will bring the rich resources of The Boston Globe's historical content to the ProQuest Historical Newspapers collection, under an existing agreement with The New York Times Company. The resource will be available to academic institutions and libraries, primary and secondary schools, and government and corporate libraries. ProQuest Information and Learning, a unit of ProQuest Company, creates and publishes databases for libraries and educational institutions worldwide.

In the release, historical news content from The Boston Globe will be available online from its first published edition in 1872 though 1922.   The Globe, winner of 17 Pulitzer Prizes, is considered the mainstay for Boston and New England regional news coverage.  The database will launch in March 2005.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb 16 22:54:18 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 17:54:18 -0500
Subject: Yumptious (1957); Nat Ferber's "SIdewalks of New York" (1927)
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.175418.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

YUMPTIOUS
 ?
Grant Barrett's Double-Tongued Word Wrester has this, but doesn't list Newspaperarchive:
 ?  ?
http://www.doubletongued.org/index.php/dictionary/yumptious/
yumptious adj. delicious.
English. Food & Drink. [yummy + scrumptious]

1980 William Safire N.Y. Times Magazine (Sept. 21) ???On Language: Living In Synonymy??? p. 16: This scholarly, no-frills econiche for neologisms makes yumptious reading from here to Bosnywash.

 ?  ?
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
 ? Syracuse Herald Journal ? Sunday, August 04, 1957 Syracuse, New York ?  ?
...trick on this one. The other as the YUMPTIOUS creation which the inventor..

Pg. 56, col. 4:
The other chose, as usual, the "Sabayon Fielding"--a yumptious creation which the inventor was kind enough to name in our honor several years ago
 ?
--------------------------------------------------------------
NAT FERBER'S "SIDEWALKS OF NEW YORK"
 ?
I've been going through Nat Ferber's works. He was a reporter on the New York American. His I FOUND OUT (1939) about his American stories doesn't have much of interest here (junkie? snowbird? yenta?), but it's great New York City history.
 ?
SIDEWALKS OF NEW YORK (1927), if you check on Catnyp, is "missing" from the NYPL. I had to read it at Special Collections here at NYU. SIDEWALKS OF NEW YORK, fer chissakes.
 ?
OED has "Edna Ferber" entries, but nothing at all for Nat Ferber.
 ?
 ?
SIDEWALKS OF NEW YORK: A NOVEL OF THE EAST SIDE
by Nat J. Ferber
Chicago: Pascal Covici
1927
 ?
Pg. 9: Bluntly, Meyer Bernstein referred to his disconcerting grandchild as a _mamzer_ and recoiled from the sound of the word.
 ?
Pg. 24: "Nu, these _nudnickness_ [boors] make the most trouble in the cemetery. They are such good actors that they make everybody hystericable. Just when I begin throwing in the grave the first couple shovels dirt, she will give a holler of '_vey is mir_!' [Woe is me!], give herself a clap in the head and make out she is [Pg. 25--ed.] going t'row herself in the grave on top of the coffin."
 ?
Pg. 26: "Why don't you see Luftig, the _shammes_?"
 ?
Pg. 31: ..._shadchen_ {matchmaker's] fee.
 ?
Pg. 34: He swelled with conceit when of him would be repeated in his hearing the time-worn Yiddish saying: "He can bring a wall and a wall together; two stones he can make one."
 ?  ?
Pg. 41: "I want to introduce you to Mr. Chaim COhen, the biggest potatonik in Rivington Street."
(...)
"Pleesta meecha," stammered Cohen,...
 ?
Pg. 45: ...not a kaptzin_.
 ?
Pg. 47: ...potato peddler a _millionairke_.
 ?
Pg. 58: ..._schidach_...
 ?
Pg. 60: Even the apathetic Mrs. Cohen, witness to many such meetings, donned a clean silk kerchief which she wore over her _sheitel_ [wig].
 ?
Pg. 72: "Whatsamatter? Whatsamatter?"
 ?
Pg. 102: "I'll kill him and in my house there will be no more _mamzeirim_."
 ?
Pg. 115: "_Mamzeiris_! Blackhands! _Dago_! Why was I cursed with you!"
 ?
Pg. 128: "_Tachreichim_ [a shroud] I'll buy you, whore!"
 ?
Pg. 129: The lodging house stiffs of the Bowery, pawns in the well known practice of "voting early and often," did their business with Frank in the shadows of the place.
 ?
Pg. 136: "Yeh, it happens _taake_ mean step-mothers," Herschel admitted, "But I know from neighbors that she is a good woman.
 ?
Pg. 153: "Mazel Tov," [Lucky Day] he articulated through teeth that gripped a stuffed chicken neck.
(...)
"Yeh. And we should live when you shouldn't have so much nerve like you now got, _Chazer_! [pig].
 ?
Pg. 168: And they, surrounded by sympathizing relatives, were mourning their Abraham who had "gone west."
 ?
Pg. 179: Second, as he put it, he was "punch drunk." He was like the pugilist who had been struck times without number on the head.
 ?
Pg. 214: "Instead of Alter Posterock, that sounds like something to eat, like pastrami, you can call yourself Paster, a hightone American name."
 ?
Pg. 215: "Now all of a sudden you are changing your name and talking about checks. It ain't kosher."
 ?
Pg. 218: The street changed Posternock to suit itself and referred to Alter and his as the _Pascudnicks_, which means "the filthy."
 ?
Pg. 256: Her goulasch, strudel and pirogen were delicacies for which Chatzkel's place was locally famous.
 ?
Pg. 258: "He ain't a professor. He's going to be a bust boy."
"A bust boy?"
"Yeh. A bust boy. what busts the dishes."
 ?
Pg. 271: The party ordered cheese blintzes and were given rapid service.
 ?
Pg. 274: I'll quicker become a _Rebitzen_ (of the rabbinate).
 ?
Pg. 299: "A _maake_, an abcess, I'll put back."
 ?
Pg. 344: The reporter, a hard boiled egg, in the language of Park Row, frankly announced on his arrival in Stone's presence that he had come to prove that he was a crook."
 ?
Pg. 349: The reporter wrote a "first person" interview with her.


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Thu Feb 17 00:33:15 2005
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 19:33:15 -0500
Subject: fee for consulting
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.193315.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

if any professionally employed linguist here, esp those employed as an
academic, has provided linguistic consultation for a fee, would you
please backchannel to me, at this email address

simon at ipfw.edu

thanks!

beth simon

beth lee simon, ph.d.
associate professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
fort wayne, in 46805-1499
u.s.
voice (011) 260 481 6761; fax (011) 260 481 6985
email simon at ipfw.edu


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Feb 17 01:54:36 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 20:54:36 -0500
Subject: my link to the archives has changed..
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.205436.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Did this happen to anyone else?  Did I do something wrong, or right?  Did I not pay my bill?

I can't figure out how to link to the archives the way I always did.

All I get now is the new, improved seven pages of the ADS homepage.

sc


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Feb 17 02:02:05 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:02:05 -0500
Subject: my link to the archives has changed..
In-Reply-To: <009001c51493$a27e2050$bc24a618@sam>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.210205.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 08:54:36PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote:
> Did this happen to anyone else?  Did I do something wrong, or right?  Did I not pay my bill?
>
> I can't figure out how to link to the archives the way I always did.

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l

I didn't realize there _was_ another way to get to the archives....

Jesse Sheidlower


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Thu Feb 17 02:25:08 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:25:08 -0500
Subject: my link to the archives has changed..
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.212508.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks, Jesse.  This isn't the page I've had for some time now, but it
works.  Doesn't look as colorful or warm as the other one did.

Sam C.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Sheidlower" <jester at PANIX.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: my link to the archives has changed..


> On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 08:54:36PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote:
> > Did this happen to anyone else?  Did I do something wrong, or right?
Did I not pay my bill?
> >
> > I can't figure out how to link to the archives the way I always did.
>
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l
>
> I didn't realize there _was_ another way to get to the archives....
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
>


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Feb 17 02:31:43 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 21:31:43 -0500
Subject: my link to the archives has changed..
In-Reply-To: <009d01c51497$e67ce850$bc24a618@sam>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.213143.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 09:25:08PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote:
> Thanks, Jesse.  This isn't the page I've had for some time now, but it
> works.  Doesn't look as colorful or warm as the other one did.

I'm sure Grant will be along with an explanation soon, but I
see now that the spiffy new ADS pages--thanks, Grant!--does
have a link to this--it's the link "ADS-L Archive".

Jesse Sheidlower


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Thu Feb 17 02:32:08 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 18:32:08 -0800
Subject: my link to the archives has changed..
In-Reply-To: <20050217020205.GA29347@panix.com>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.183208.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 16, 2005, at 6:02 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 16, 2005 at 08:54:36PM -0500, Sam Clements wrote:
>> Did this happen to anyone else?  Did I do something wrong, or right?
>> Did I not pay my bill?
>>
>> I can't figure out how to link to the archives the way I always did.
>
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l
>
> I didn't realize there _was_ another way to get to the archives....

you can still go to the main ADS page, click on Mail List, and get to
the archives from that page, without remembering or recording any
address other than americandialect.org.

arnold


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Feb 17 03:09:45 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:09:45 -0500
Subject: my link to the archives has changed..
In-Reply-To: <009001c51493$a27e2050$bc24a618@sam>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.220945.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes! I did finally finish the new ADS site. The old link to the ADS-L
archive redirects to the new ADS-L page, which, as Jesse and Arnold
point out, does have a link to the LinguistList interface to the
archive, which offers the exact same features (and means I have to code
one less page for the ADS-L site).

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l

I am working slowly on the old archives. I hope to have them up soon,
with dupes removed and better search options.

Grant

On Feb 16, 2005, at 20:54, Sam Clements wrote:

> Did this happen to anyone else?  Did I do something wrong, or right?
> Did I not pay my bill?
>
> I can't figure out how to link to the archives the way I always did.
>
> All I get now is the new, improved seven pages of the ADS homepage.
>
> sc
>


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Feb 17 03:17:17 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 22:17:17 -0500
Subject: Yumptious (1957); Nat Ferber's "SIdewalks of New York" (1927)
In-Reply-To: <4919F677.48F84495.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.221717.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thanks for that, Barry. I couldn't get into the NA site for some reason
yesterday. I kept getting strange Microsoft .Net errors.

Grant

On Feb 16, 2005, at 17:54, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> YUMPTIOUS
> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
>  ? Syracuse Herald Journal ? Sunday, August 04, 1957 Syracuse, New
> York ?  ?
> ...trick on this one. The other as the YUMPTIOUS creation which the
> inventor..
>
> Pg. 56, col. 4:
> The other chose, as usual, the "Sabayon Fielding"--a yumptious
> creation which the inventor was kind enough to name in our honor
> several years ago


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 17 04:12:39 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 23:12:39 -0500
Subject: "Love muscle"
Message-ID: <WED.16.FEB.2005.231239.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

HDAS dates this to at least 1958. I didn't hear it till 1960. However,
FWIW, my "informant," a white sailor from Camden, NJ, told me that I
was overcorrecting - or words to that effect. According to him, the
proper term is "love _muzzle_," which is not in HDAS.

-Wilson Gray


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 17 07:04:39 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 02:04:39 EST
Subject: "Plant you now and dig you later" (1935)
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.020439.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is so stupid I love it. The HDAS has it from the New York Times of May
9, 1943. (The first "dig" entry there is 1938.) It's repeated twice in the
following book I was going through.
...
...
THE BOOK OF NEGRO FOLKLORE
edited by Langston Hughes and Arna Bontemps
New York: Dodd, Mead & Company
1958
...
Pg. 480:
"Like the farmer and the 'tater, plant you now and dig you later"--means,  "I
must go, but I'll remember you."
...
Pg. 486 (HARLEM JIVE TALK, IDIOMS, FOLK EXPRESSIONS):
PLANT YOU NOW AND DIG YOU LATER: I'll leave you now to see you by and  by.
...
...
(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
     _Hammond Times _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2nLhVKQpr+YtsGEMdnKdZ9roBG8iBNFqP0IF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday,
September 05, 1935 _Hammond,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hammond+plant+you+now+and+dig+you+later+AND)  _Indiana_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:indiana+plant+you+now+and+dig+you+later+A
ND)
...dictionary: "I'll  PLANT YOU NOW AND DIG  YOU LATER, which
means.....studies have indicated  that had our PLANT been used to capacity in 1929  over..

...
_Hammond Times _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2nLhVKQpr+YtqMBfI4M4wcyFJqGGi4mX1kIF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday, September
05, 1935 _Hammond,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hammond+plant+you+now+and+dig+you+later+AND)  _Indiana_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:indiana+plant+you+now+and+dig+you+later+AND)

...dictionary: "I'll  PLANT YOU NOW AND DIG  YOU LATER, means, "Take
it.....studies have.  indicated that had our PLANT been used to capacity in 1929
over..
Pg. 4, col.  3:
MY NEW YORK by  James Aswell
(...)
For the new  Harlemerican dictionary: "I'll plant you now and dig you later,
gate!"--which means, "Take it easy. I'll see you later."


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 17 08:11:02 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:11:02 EST
Subject: "I'm the boss, applesauce. Understand,
 rubber band?" (Children's rhymes)
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.031102.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The following book is just wonderful. There are lots of wonderful
expressions to trace. Oxford's quotations/phrase/fable books never include this.  I
don't know what Fred Shapiro might include, but there's a Yale rhyme  here. I'll
do the database searches on another post.
...
...
ONE POTATO, TWO POTATO...:
THE SECRET EDUCATION OF AMERICAN CHILDREN
by Mary and Herbert Knapp
New York: W. W. Norton & Co., Inc.
1976
...
...
Pg. 63:
Don't give me no lip, Potato Chip.
Shut up, Ketchup.
I'm the boss, Applesauce.
It's your fault, Garlic Salt.
Don't get wise, Bubble-eyes.
Pg. 64:
You're cruisin' for a bruisin'.
Understand, Rubber band?
Yes, I do, Tennis Shoe.
(...)
Be like a banana and split.
Be like dandruff and flake off.
Be like a tree and leave.
Be like a ghost and vanish.
Be like a bee and buzz off.
Take a long walk off a short pier.
(...)
Go jump in a lake.
(...)
Be like a baby and head out.
Be like a hockey player and get the puck out of here.
...
Pg. 84:
We can, we can, we know we can,
We can, we can, we must.
We can, we can, we know we can,
Increase our bust.
...
Pg. 85:
We must, we must,
Increase our bust.
The bigger the better,
The tighter the sweater,
The boys like you better,
And so we must.
...
Pg. 93:
What starts with _f_ and ends with _c-k_?
Firetruck, you dummy, what'd you think it was?
(...)
Tell them to say, "I'm not the sheet slitter, I'm the sheet slitter's son,
but I'll slit your sheets till the sheet slitter comes."
...
Pg. 105:
What did the mother bullet say to the father bullet?
We're going to have a bee-bee.
...
Pg. 106:
What's S.T.P.?
Sticky toilet paper.
(...)
What made Miss Tomato turn red?
She saw Mister Green pea.
(...)
What's six inches long and has two nuts?
An almond bar.
...
Pg. 140:
My name is _Alice; my husband's name is _Al_;
 We live in _Alabama_; and we sell _apples_. (Alphabet  verses--ed.)
...
Pg. 141:
One, two, three a nation,
I received my confirmation
On this day of declaration,
One, two, three a nation.
...
Pg. 150: Contemporary children play both traditional and modern versions of
Rise, Sally, Rise.
...
Pg. 153:
Remember Grant,
Remember Lee,
To hell with them,
Remember me.
...
Pg. 154:
I auto cry,
I auto laugh,
I auto sign,
My autograph.
(...)
Roses are red,
Flowers are blue,
Your mother is pretty,
What happened to you?
[Or "What you need is a goof shampoo."]
(...)
I saw you in the ocean,
I saw you in the sea,
I saw you in the bathtub--
Oops, pardon me.
(...)
By the sewer I lived,
By the sewer I died,
They called it a murder,
But it was sewer-cide.
...
Pg. 155:
Some kiss under a lily,
Somme kiss under a rose,
But the best place to kiss a boy,
Is right under his nose.
...
Pg. 162:
Comet, it makes your teeth turn green,
Comet, it tastes like gasoline [or "Listerine," "Vaseline"],
Comet, it makes you vomit,
So buy some Comet and vomit today!
...
Pg. 163:
McDonald's is your kind of place;
They serve you rattlesnakes,
Hot dogs up your nose,
French fries between your toes,
And don't forget those chocolate shakes,
They're from polluted eggs,
McDonald's is your kind of place;
The last time that I was there,
They stole my underwear,
I really didn't care,
They were a dirty pair.
The next time that you go there,
They'll serve my underwear.
McDonald's is your kind of place.
Scooo-oobie.
...
Pg. 165:
Pepsi-Cola went to town,
Coca-Cola shot him down,
Dr. Pepper dixed him up,
While drinking a bottle of Seven-Up.
...
Pg. 183: I love you bit, I love you mighty,
O wish your pajamas were next to my nightie.
Now don't get excited, now don't lose your head,
I mean on the clothesline instead of in bed.
...
Pg. 185:
I see London, I see France,
I see _Betsy's_ underpants.
They ain't green, they ain't blue,
They're just  filled with number two.
(...)
Tarzan swings, Tarzan falls,
Tarzan lands right on his balls.
...
Pg. 188:
Old MacDonald sittin' on a fence,
Hittin' his knee with a monkey wrench,
Missed his knee and cracked his balls,
Pissed all over his overalls.
(...)
Tra-la-la-boom-de-ay,
We'll take your pants away,
And while you're standing there,
We'll take your underwear!
(...)
I don't go out with girls any more,
I don't intend to marry.
I just do out with boys I adore,
Oops! I'm a fairy.
...
Pg. 195:
Three little Negroes dressed in white,
Wanted to go to Harvard on the tail of a kite,
The kite string broke and down they fell.
They didn't go to Harvard, they went to...
Now don't get excited, don't turn pale,
They didn't go to Harvard, they went to Yale.
(Michigan, 1961)
...
Pg. 198: Chin conh Chinaman...
...
Pg. 199:
"Do you like cheese?"
"Yes."
"You're a dirty Japanese."
...
Pg. 202:
Holy Moses, King of the Jews
Wiped his ass on the _Daily News_.
The paper was thin
And what a fine mess the king was in.
...
Pg. 203:
Roses are red,
Violets are bluish,
If it weren't for Christmas,
We'd all be Jewish.
...
Pg. 213:
The Addams family started
When Uncle Fester [or "Henry"] farted.
I think they're all retarded,
["They all came out retarded,"]
The Addams fam-il-y.
[Two farting noises follow.]
...
Pg. 215:
Beans, beans are good for your heart.
The more you eat, the more you fart.
The more you fart, the better you feel,
So eat beans for every meal.
(...)
Beans, beans are a musical fruit.
The more you eat, the more you toot.
The more you toot, the better you feel,
So eat beans for every meal.
...
Pg. 222:
Trick for treat,
Smell my feet,
Give me something good to eat!
...
Pg. 223:
April Fool, go to school,
Tell your teacher she's a fool.
If she slaps you, don't you cry.
Take your books and say, "Good-by!"


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 17 08:49:26 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 03:49:26 EST
Subject: "I'm the boss, applesauce. Understand,
 rubber band?" (Children's rhymes)
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.034926.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here are some against Newspaperarchive before I go to bed...Yes, I did make
a few typing mistakes in the last post, but they should be obvious.
...
...
...
     _ Post Standard _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2ng5EdsWvp4xHY8z7zjC5omDvB/qLKqk1kIF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday,
October  06, 1988 _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+i)  _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+i)      ...To borrow a phrase from  THEm, "I'M THE BOSS
APPLESAUCE My 3  p.m. meeting is for.....What we call, 'Last of THE least AND  best
of THE rest Fiddler's Green  is..
...
...
     _Bismarck Tribune _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/6NLMW2gC9aK8T6pzPeC4RRS2LTGKiTAE7jok+MkIF+CsZYmrz)  Saturday,
April 07, 1956 _Bismarck,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:bismarck+lip,+potato+chip)  _North Dakota_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:north_dakota+lip,+potato+chip)      ...legs are
straighter Watch  your lip POTATO CHIP Easy breezy, there's  malaria..
...
...
     _Syracuse Herald Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=guFez8c11n2KID/6NLMW2u15gyf/4KvxVESC+dZgfgA9jkpRJw/0jEIF+CsZYmrz)
Thursday, April 08, 1982 _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+wish+your+pajamas)  _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+wish+your+pajamas)      ...end goes like
I love you I  love you I WISH YOUR PAJAMAS were next to my  Don't.....it many
years ago and am just -.about YOUR so Til bet you  can help me out..
...
     _News Herald _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=WIIwbfg7DKmKID/6NLMW2v5LCvD8WAgt4jaZuvIgcUqmvP4cXiVJ4UIF+CsZYmrz)  Wednesday, December
11, 1963 _Mansfield,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:mansfield+violets+are+bluish)  _Ohio_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+violets+are+bluish)      ...Great Lakes Mall "Roses
ARE reddish, VIOLETS ARE BLUISH. If it wasn't  for.....Police Chief Jim
Coleman and his wife ARE back from Florida  and he's got a..

...
     _Syracuse Herald Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=3vaM+qTkZ6GKID/6NLMW2iYfV7N+C2qfJtldr75xC5+ISRHU7i5Yd0IF+CsZYmrz)
Thursday, January 12, 1995 _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+beans+and+more+you+eat)  _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+beans+and+more+you+eat)
...BEANS, BEANS,  the magical fruit, the MORE YOU EAT, the MORE  YOU
toot.....BEANS, BEANS, the magical fruit, the  MORE YOU EAT, the MORE YOU toot If  I..

...
     _Syracuse Herald Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=4uFNimLMxoSKID/6NLMW2tfyePmJHkUvMFFRfj4Jd0mMHPfpkzN2uEIF+CsZYmrz)  Sunday,
October 04, 1998 _Syracuse,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:syracuse+treat+and+give+me+something)  _New York_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:new_york+treat+and+give+me+something)

...for the number 6. rick or  TREAT? GIVE ME soMEthing good to cat! We had
better.....nuMErals on each page. Trick or TREAT, My Feet  written AND
illustrated..

...
_Lima News _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=/TuInQ3tu5uKID/6NLMW2n4YTxDnN8dlhgyQ76sy2mlNk7rME+I+gUIF+CsZYmrz)  Sunday, October 24, 1971
_Lima,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lima+treat+and+give+me+something)  _Ohio_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:ohio+treat+and+give+me+something)      ...trick or TREAT,  .sMEll my
feet, GIVE ME soMEthing good to  eat." Tami Wininger.....be everything new to
sew, wear AND  GIVE for the 1971 holidays.  At-hoME..

...
     _Guthrian _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MHMeTXbgRjuKID/6NLMW2lxb6qqBJC0pFgcYfk4PNgFwUONAFOFcSQ==)  Monday, October 30, 1972
_Guthrie Center,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:guthrie_center+treat+and+give+me+something)  _Iowa_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+treat+and+give+me+something)      ...TRICK OR
TREAT.  SMELL MY FEET, GIVE ME SOMETHING GOOD TO EAT  S. Is Jf. Nov.....sponsor
an activity, it should choose soMEthing  that more kids can benefit..


...
     _Hamburg Reporter _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=MHMeTXbgRjuKID/6NLMW2mjgzaqg3ZbrFM7K0qgPHgknyVnYmGViGw==)  Thursday, December 18,
1969 _Hamburg,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:hamburg+smell+my+feet+and+give+me+something)  _Iowa_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:iowa+smell+my+feet+and+give+me+something)
...21 to Feb. Say or treet,  SMELL MY FEET, GIVE ME  soMEthing good to eat,
as.....is sung like it was a hymn. In Never  GIVE ME Your Money, it is brought
out..

...


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 17 13:48:18 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 08:48:18 -0500
Subject: "Plant you now and dig you later" (1935)
In-Reply-To: <E1D1fiU-0005vI-00@mx03.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.084818.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What's "so stupid [that you] love it"? Or do you mean, "_mad stupid_"?

-Wilson

On Feb 17, 2005, at 2:04 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      "Plant you now and dig you later" (1935)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> This is so stupid I love it. The HDAS has it from the New York Times
> of May
> 9, 1943. (The first "dig" entry there is 1938.) It's repeated twice in
> the
> following book I was going through.
> ...
> ...
> THE BOOK OF NEGRO FOLKLORE
> edited by Langston Hughes and Arna Bontemps
> New York: Dodd, Mead & Company
> 1958
> ...
> Pg. 480:
> "Like the farmer and the 'tater, plant you now and dig you
> later"--means,  "I
> must go, but I'll remember you."
> ...
> Pg. 486 (HARLEM JIVE TALK, IDIOMS, FOLK EXPRESSIONS):
> PLANT YOU NOW AND DIG YOU LATER: I'll leave you now to see you by and
> by.
> ...
> ...
> (NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
>      _Hammond Times _
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/
> 6NLMW2nLhVKQpr+YtsGEMdnKdZ9roBG8iBNFqP0IF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday,
> September 05, 1935 _Hammond,_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:
> hammond+plant+you+now+and+dig+you+later+AND)  _Indiana_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:
> indiana+plant+you+now+and+dig+you+later+A
> ND)
> ...dictionary: "I'll  PLANT YOU NOW AND DIG  YOU LATER, which
> means.....studies have indicated  that had our PLANT been used to
> capacity in 1929  over..
>
> ...
> _Hammond Times _
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=9qnHh8I+Pl6KID/
> 6NLMW2nLhVKQpr+YtqMBfI4M4wcyFJqGGi4mX1kIF+CsZYmrz)  Thursday,
> September
> 05, 1935 _Hammond,_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:
> hammond+plant+you+now+and+dig+you+later+AND)  _Indiana_
> (http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:
> indiana+plant+you+now+and+dig+you+later+AND)
>
> ...dictionary: "I'll  PLANT YOU NOW AND DIG  YOU LATER, means, "Take
> it.....studies have.  indicated that had our PLANT been used to
> capacity in 1929
> over..
> Pg. 4, col.  3:
> MY NEW YORK by  James Aswell
> (...)
> For the new  Harlemerican dictionary: "I'll plant you now and dig you
> later,
> gate!"--which means, "Take it easy. I'll see you later."
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 17 14:42:44 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 06:42:44 -0800
Subject: "Love muscle"
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.064244.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Don't know about "love muzzle," Wilson.  Word is quite unfamiliar to me.  The implied ordnance metaphor isn't very apropos, all things being considered.


JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: "Love muscle"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HDAS dates this to at least 1958. I didn't hear it till 1960. However,
FWIW, my "informant," a white sailor from Camden, NJ, told me that I
was overcorrecting - or words to that effect. According to him, the
proper term is "love _muzzle_," which is not in HDAS.

-Wilson Gray


---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 17 15:28:06 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:28:06 -0800
Subject: "I'm the boss, applesauce. Understand,
 rubber band?" (Children's rhymes)
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.072806.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Why don't you take a long walk off a short pier?"  NYC kid, 1963

"Don't get wise, Beady-Eyes."   NYC kid, 1960

JL
Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: "I'm the boss, applesauce. Understand, rubber band?" (Children's
rhymes)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following book is just wonderful. There are lots of wonderful
expressions to trace. Oxford's quotations/phrase/fable books never include this. I
don't know what Fred Shapiro might include, but there's a Yale rhyme here. I'll
do the database searches on another post.
...
...
ONE POTATO, TWO POTATO...:
THE SECRET EDUCATION OF AMERICAN CHILDREN
by Mary and Herbert Knapp
New York: W. W. Norton & Co., Inc.
1976
...
...
Pg. 63:
Don't give me no lip, Potato Chip.
Shut up, Ketchup.
I'm the boss, Applesauce.
It's your fault, Garlic Salt.
Don't get wise, Bubble-eyes.
Pg. 64:
You're cruisin' for a bruisin'.
Understand, Rubber band?
Yes, I do, Tennis Shoe.
(...)
Be like a banana and split.
Be like dandruff and flake off.
Be like a tree and leave.
Be like a ghost and vanish.
Be like a bee and buzz off.
Take a long walk off a short pier.
(...)
Go jump in a lake.
(...)
Be like a baby and head out.
Be like a hockey player and get the puck out of here.
...
Pg. 84:
We can, we can, we know we can,
We can, we can, we must.
We can, we can, we know we can,
Increase our bust.
...
Pg. 85:
We must, we must,
Increase our bust.
The bigger the better,
The tighter the sweater,
The boys like you better,
And so we must.
...
Pg. 93:
What starts with _f_ and ends with _c-k_?
Firetruck, you dummy, what'd you think it was?
(...)
Tell them to say, "I'm not the sheet slitter, I'm the sheet slitter's son,
but I'll slit your sheets till the sheet slitter comes."
...
Pg. 105:
What did the mother bullet say to the father bullet?
We're going to have a bee-bee.
...
Pg. 106:
What's S.T.P.?
Sticky toilet paper.
(...)
What made Miss Tomato turn red?
She saw Mister Green pea.
(...)
What's six inches long and has two nuts?
An almond bar.
...
Pg. 140:
My name is _Alice; my husband's name is _Al_;
We live in _Alabama_; and we sell _apples_. (Alphabet verses--ed.)
...
Pg. 141:
One, two, three a nation,
I received my confirmation
On this day of declaration,
One, two, three a nation.
...
Pg. 150: Contemporary children play both traditional and modern versions of
Rise, Sally, Rise.
...
Pg. 153:
Remember Grant,
Remember Lee,
To hell with them,
Remember me.
...
Pg. 154:
I auto cry,
I auto laugh,
I auto sign,
My autograph.
(...)
Roses are red,
Flowers are blue,
Your mother is pretty,
What happened to you?
[Or "What you need is a goof shampoo."]
(...)
I saw you in the ocean,
I saw you in the sea,
I saw you in the bathtub--
Oops, pardon me.
(...)
By the sewer I lived,
By the sewer I died,
They called it a murder,
But it was sewer-cide.
...
Pg. 155:
Some kiss under a lily,
Somme kiss under a rose,
But the best place to kiss a boy,
Is right under his nose.
...
Pg. 162:
Comet, it makes your teeth turn green,
Comet, it tastes like gasoline [or "Listerine," "Vaseline"],
Comet, it makes you vomit,
So buy some Comet and vomit today!
...
Pg. 163:
McDonald's is your kind of place;
They serve you rattlesnakes,
Hot dogs up your nose,
French fries between your toes,
And don't forget those chocolate shakes,
They're from polluted eggs,
McDonald's is your kind of place;
The last time that I was there,
They stole my underwear,
I really didn't care,
They were a dirty pair.
The next time that you go there,
They'll serve my underwear.
McDonald's is your kind of place.
Scooo-oobie.
...
Pg. 165:
Pepsi-Cola went to town,
Coca-Cola shot him down,
Dr. Pepper dixed him up,
While drinking a bottle of Seven-Up.
...
Pg. 183: I love you bit, I love you mighty,
O wish your pajamas were next to my nightie.
Now don't get excited, now don't lose your head,
I mean on the clothesline instead of in bed.
...
Pg. 185:
I see London, I see France,
I see _Betsy's_ underpants.
They ain't green, they ain't blue,
They're just filled with number two.
(...)
Tarzan swings, Tarzan falls,
Tarzan lands right on his balls.
...
Pg. 188:
Old MacDonald sittin' on a fence,
Hittin' his knee with a monkey wrench,
Missed his knee and cracked his balls,
Pissed all over his overalls.
(...)
Tra-la-la-boom-de-ay,
We'll take your pants away,
And while you're standing there,
We'll take your underwear!
(...)
I don't go out with girls any more,
I don't intend to marry.
I just do out with boys I adore,
Oops! I'm a fairy.
...
Pg. 195:
Three little Negroes dressed in white,
Wanted to go to Harvard on the tail of a kite,
The kite string broke and down they fell.
They didn't go to Harvard, they went to...
Now don't get excited, don't turn pale,
They didn't go to Harvard, they went to Yale.
(Michigan, 1961)
...
Pg. 198: Chin conh Chinaman...
...
Pg. 199:
"Do you like cheese?"
"Yes."
"You're a dirty Japanese."
...
Pg. 202:
Holy Moses, King of the Jews
Wiped his ass on the _Daily News_.
The paper was thin
And what a fine mess the king was in.
...
Pg. 203:
Roses are red,
Violets are bluish,
If it weren't for Christmas,
We'd all be Jewish.
...
Pg. 213:
The Addams family started
When Uncle Fester [or "Henry"] farted.
I think they're all retarded,
["They all came out retarded,"]
The Addams fam-il-y.
[Two farting noises follow.]
...
Pg. 215:
Beans, beans are good for your heart.
The more you eat, the more you fart.
The more you fart, the better you feel,
So eat beans for every meal.
(...)
Beans, beans are a musical fruit.
The more you eat, the more you toot.
The more you toot, the better you feel,
So eat beans for every meal.
...
Pg. 222:
Trick for treat,
Smell my feet,
Give me something good to eat!
...
Pg. 223:
April Fool, go to school,
Tell your teacher she's a fool.
If she slaps you, don't you cry.
Take your books and say, "Good-by!"


---------------------------------
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From preston at MSU.EDU  Thu Feb 17 16:02:03 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:02:03 -0500
Subject: Pinot as WTY
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.110203.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Everybody wants to horn in on the WTY act!

The Global Language Monitor (?) has now stepped up to the plate with "pinot."

dInIs

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050217/film_nm/leisure_oscars_words_dc

PS: larry, sorry, no offense meant by "horn in on"
--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM  Thu Feb 17 16:10:08 2005
From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:10:08 -0500
Subject: Email Exposure and Security
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.111008.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

hi Grant,

 From
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l

I can find 15 posts from me that unfortunately
exposes my email address to robots.
Every single robot in the universe can grab it and sell it.
This is a know security risk and flaw.

tell me does this setting
"SET ADS-L CONCEAL"
hide my email address from robots?

Do you plan to code Listserve
to xxxx out the email addy  from this Public Archive?
I would suggest you limit our email address exposure.

Why not improve the navigation on this page
http://www.americandialect.org/index.php/ads/ads_l_the_american_dialect_society_email_discussion_list/
& put the URL for the ADS-L front door
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l

also See: Technology / Security / Internet / Email etc:
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Technology/Home_TECHNOLOGY.html


thanks,
Karen Ellis

--
'At 10:09 PM 2/16/2005, you wrote:
Poster: Grant Barrett <gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG>
Yes! I did finally finish the new ADS site. The old link to the ADS-L
archive redirects to the new ADS-L page, which, as Jesse and Arnold
point out, does have a link to the LinguistList interface to the
archive, which offers the exact same features (and means I have to code
one less page for the ADS-L site).
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l
I am working slowly on the old archives. I hope to have them up soon,
with dupes removed and better search options.
Grant

<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
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New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink,
USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty
<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>


From mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU  Thu Feb 17 16:24:53 2005
From: mamandel at LDC.UPENN.EDU (Mark A. Mandel)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:24:53 -0500
Subject: Change the name of Arkansas? (1910); See a pin... (1870)
In-Reply-To: <20050217050316.18DBCB2606@lorax.ldc.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.112453.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry contributes:
   >>>>>
#"SEE A PIN AND PICK IT UP..."
#
#It appears that "pin" is earlier than "penny."
#
#
#(AMERICAN PERIODICAL SERIES ONLINE)
#DREAM OF THE LITTLE GIRL WHO WOULD NOT PICK UP A PIN.
#Mrs A M Diaz. Our Young Folks. An Illustrated Magazine for Boys and Girls (1865-1873). Boston: Mar 1870. Vol. 6, Iss. 3; p. 178 (8 pages)
#First page:
#"See a pin and pick it up,
#All the day you'll have good luck;
#See a pin and let it lie,
#Come to sorrow by and by."
 <<<<<

Not surprising in historical context. A little girl would be much more
likely to see a pin on the floor than a penny. If I recall correctly what I
have read, pins used to be considered quite valuable, having to be made by
hand individually. There's an old song called "Paper of Pins" in which a
suitor offers a lady just that for her hand, followed by other valuable
items, each of which she refuses up to and including "the key to my
chest"... until, in some versions,he offers "the key to my heart", which
wins hers.
(http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiPAPERPIN;ttPAPERPIN.html

http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiPAPERPIN;ttPAPERPIN.html)


-- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname
     http://mark.cracksandshards.com/filk.html
     Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring!
     [This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Thu Feb 17 16:33:04 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 10:33:04 -0600
Subject: "Love muscle"
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.103304.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think I've heard it, in the context of "nuzzle my love muzzle".  Also,
for those who name such things, there is "Russell the love muscle".

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Jonathan Lighter
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 8:43 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "Love muscle"
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Love muscle"
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> Don't know about "love muzzle," Wilson.  Word is quite
> unfamiliar to me.  The implied ordnance metaphor isn't very
> apropos, all things being considered.
>
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: "Love muscle"
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> HDAS dates this to at least 1958. I didn't hear it till 1960.
> However, FWIW, my "informant," a white sailor from Camden,
> NJ, told me that I was overcorrecting - or words to that
> effect. According to him, the proper term is "love _muzzle_,"
> which is not in HDAS.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
>


From vnend at ADELPHIA.NET  Thu Feb 17 16:35:09 2005
From: vnend at ADELPHIA.NET (David W. James)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:35:09 -0500
Subject: "Love muscle"
In-Reply-To: <20050217144246.ZAYQ22701.mta4.adelphia.net@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.113509.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 17, 2005, at 9:42 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> Don't know about "love muzzle," Wilson.  Word is quite unfamiliar to
> me.  The implied ordnance metaphor isn't very apropos, all things
> being considered.

> JL

        As a synonym for 'love muscle' I have to agree. But if it were used to
refer to a condom it would be delightful.

David


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Thu Feb 17 16:53:12 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:53:12 -0500
Subject: Another look at "honky"
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.115312.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

By coincidence the same piece in AVA that occasioned my quibble about
"dialectic" (a long quote from the RHHDAS entry for "honky") caught the eye
of another reader (from Hamilton AL) who submitted the following letter to
the editor.  [I'm omitting some slightly quarrelsome passages.]  FWIW:

>[....] It's an old word, but not older than the late 1920s and 1930s.  At
>that time in the deep south most domestic workers who cared for the homes
>of the southern white middle-class (maids, women who ironed and washed),
>lived in very segregated black neighborhoods (and still tend to in a city
>such as Montgomery).  Early each morning many were picked up at their
>"shotgun" houses by the white owner for whom they worked, and the white
>driver of an auto "honked" out front of the shotgun houses and waited for
>the domestic to emerge.  They became derisively known to the blacks as
>"honkies," not a complimentary term then, nor now. [ ...........]
PPS  Having played a full season as the only "honkie  cracker" on an
all-black touring pro baseball team in South Carolina, I do have quite a
bit of primary source knowledge of such words from black citizens of that
era.  The mothers and fathers of our players were particularly informative.<
>>From /Anderson Valley Advertiser/ February 9, 2005.

A. Murie


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Thu Feb 17 17:06:31 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 12:06:31 -0500
Subject: Email Exposure and Security
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050217110732.0374dbb8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.120631.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

According to a conversation I had with Tony Aristar in 2003, the
LinguistList folks put in place sturdy technological barriers which
will prevent robots and spiders from automatically scavenging email
addresses off the pages. It looks like they have done so: if I do a
search for any number of my posts or email addresses in Google, the
archives are not returned as a result. Given the high level of
technical aptitude shown by the folks at LinguistList, I trust that
they have also blocked other indexers, spiders, and robots.

Of course, this blocking does not prevent anyone from going into the
archives and scavenging by hand, but then, anyone can also subscribe to
the email list and retrieve addresses from messages they receive, if
they want to do it the hard way, which spammers, being notoriously
stupid and lazy, don't. However, we may also require some text
obfuscation on the page itself, in the code. I'll ask.

Using the SET ADS-L CONCEAL command only omits your address on the list
of ADS-L subscribers which folks can request directly from the listserv
software.

> Why not [...]ut the URL for the ADS-L front door
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?S1=ads-l

The URL for the ADS-L archive front door IS on that page, bold and
underlined, in the second paragraph.

Grant Barrett
ADS Webmaster
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 17 18:25:36 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:25:36 -0500
Subject: Cowboynomics; World's Second Home
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.132536.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

COWBOYNOMICS

It's in today's Wall Street Journal. Whatever it means.


Europe Needs Bush Style Tax Cuts, Less Regulation, and Less ...
Here is some more from my friends at the Wall Street Journal: http://online.wsj.
com/article/0,,SB1108609359817?57416,00.html <quote> Cowboynomics February 17 ...
talk.politics.misc - Feb 17, 9:07 am by sorry_no_em... at yahoo.com - 6 messages - 4 authors

--------------------------------------------------------------
WORLD'S SECOND HOME

Maybe Gerald Cohen has an opinion on this and wants to write a letter to the editor to the NY Times. The Times article mentioned "Fun City," but curiously left out the "Big Apple" that appears in almost every other article on Google News.

Hey, Gersh Kuntzman! About the Big Apple, the City's tourism bureau still gets it wrong, thirteen years later, and tomorrow is the anniversary of the February 18th "Around the Big Apple" column...

OK, back to work. Wish they'd give me air.


http://www.wesh.com/travelgetaways/4206522/detail.html
New York To Drop 'The Big Apple' For Another Nickname

POSTED: 6:40 am EST February 17, 2005

NEW YORK -- Forget "The Big Apple." New York now wants to be known as "The World's Second Home."


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 17 19:34:28 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 11:34:28 -0800
Subject: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork... (1948); "Never
 been to Yale"
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.113428.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"I'm rubber, you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you!" - NYC kid, 1962

Cf.:

MONTAGUE. I am of pliant, supple whalebone made,
And you are glue.; the insults that you hurl
Bounce off my bouyant frame and stick to you!

-- William Shakespeare*, "Romeo and Juliet, Part 1 (cont.)," V, iii,
 ll. 420-23, in H. Beard, C. Cerf, et al., The Book of Sequels (New York: Random House, 1990), p. 78.

JL
           * "William Shakespeare" is the well-known pseudonym of Henry Beard.



Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Bapopik at AOL.COM
Subject: Re: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork... (1948); "Never
been to Yale"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

. . .

Pg. 128:
I'm rubber and you're glue.
What you say to me will bounce back and stick to you.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today!


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 17 20:36:55 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:36:55 -0500
Subject: "Love muscle"
In-Reply-To: <E1D1mri-0000pm-00@mx19.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.153655.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I agree. Assuming that my old war-buddy said "-muzzle" every time that
he used the term, which was a lot, in the barracks environment, why did
I hear it as "-muscle," until he corrected me when I tried to use it?
Probably because the first thing that came to mind was "muzzle" as in
"muzzle for a dog," which made no sense. It made more sense to assume
that he was mispronouncing "muscle." In fact, even as I was writing my
original post, I lost track of the point for a couple of seconds,
because "muzzle for a dog" popped into my head, causing me to block on
"muzzle of a hose" or "muzzle of a firearm."

-Wilson

On Feb 17, 2005, at 9:42 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Love muscle"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Don't know about "love muzzle," Wilson.  Word is quite unfamiliar to
> me.  The implied ordnance metaphor isn't very apropos, all things
> being considered.
>
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: "Love muscle"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> HDAS dates this to at least 1958. I didn't hear it till 1960. However,
> FWIW, my "informant," a white sailor from Camden, NJ, told me that I
> was overcorrecting - or words to that effect. According to him, the
> proper term is "love _muzzle_," which is not in HDAS.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb 17 20:52:39 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 15:52:39 -0500
Subject: "Love muscle"
In-Reply-To: <36769813e1d254e70a4777556be47d4c@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.155239.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not to be confused with the Love Mussel:  cf.
http://www.thetoque.net/050111/love_mussel.htm


At 3:36 PM -0500 2/17/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>I agree. Assuming that my old war-buddy said "-muzzle" every time that
>he used the term, which was a lot, in the barracks environment, why did
>I hear it as "-muscle," until he corrected me when I tried to use it?
>Probably because the first thing that came to mind was "muzzle" as in
>"muzzle for a dog," which made no sense. It made more sense to assume
>that he was mispronouncing "muscle." In fact, even as I was writing my
>original post, I lost track of the point for a couple of seconds,
>because "muzzle for a dog" popped into my head, causing me to block on
>"muzzle of a hose" or "muzzle of a firearm."
>
>-Wilson
>
>On Feb 17, 2005, at 9:42 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>>Subject:      Re: "Love muscle"
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>Don't know about "love muzzle," Wilson.  Word is quite unfamiliar to
>>me.  The implied ordnance metaphor isn't very apropos, all things
>>being considered.
>>
>>
>>JL
>>
>>Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: Wilson Gray
>>Subject: "Love muscle"
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>HDAS dates this to at least 1958. I didn't hear it till 1960. However,
>>FWIW, my "informant," a white sailor from Camden, NJ, told me that I
>>was overcorrecting - or words to that effect. According to him, the
>>proper term is "love _muzzle_," which is not in HDAS.
>>
>>-Wilson Gray
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>  Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 18 01:34:09 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:34:09 -0500
Subject: more peaches
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.203409.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It also pops up as the last couple of a quatrain, as I was just
reminded by Charlie Poole's rendition of "If the River Was Whiskey",
recorded Jan. 23, 1930 (Charlie Poole and the North Carolina
Ramblers, on County CD-3508):

I was born in Alabama,
Raised in Tennessee,
If you don't like my peaches
Don't shake my tree.

larry


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 18 01:49:54 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:49:54 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.204954.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From the Teen Lingo site found by Patti Kurtz:

beast
    n. Someone who dominates on the basketball court.

Back in the late '50's in Los Angeles, "beast" was used by black male
college students to mean "girl friend." I assume that this application
was extracted from the saying, "[NP] not fit for man or beast"/"[NP]
fit for neither man nor beast."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 18 02:07:36 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:07:36 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <dfcc51f2ce49b6f21314dc9efdeb9705@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.210736.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:49 PM -0500 2/17/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>From the Teen Lingo site found by Patti Kurtz:
>
>beast
>    n. Someone who dominates on the basketball court.

For a while in the 80's, the expression "Beast of the East" was used
in a college basketball context to pick out whichever team was
dominant at a given time, in particular Georgetown of the Patrick
Ewing era ('81-'85).    Wonder if this relates to the above.

>Back in the late '50's in Los Angeles, "beast" was used by black male
>college students to mean "girl friend." I assume that this application
>was extracted from the saying, "[NP] not fit for man or beast"/"[NP]
>fit for neither man nor beast."

Hmmm.  As in the W. C. Fields line?  But that was about the
weather--"It ain't a fit night out for man nor beast" (please
correct, Fred)

larry


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 18 02:10:47 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:10:47 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Menstruation"
In-Reply-To: <p0432040dbe3afd89f8df@[130.132.231.245]>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.211047.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

menstruation (OED3 1753-4)

1708 John Marten _A treatise of all the degrees and symptoms of the
venereal disease, in both sexes_ (ed. 6) 57 (Eighteenth Century
Collections Online)  But if the _white Running_ vanishes, during the
menstruation or flowing of the _Reds_, and returns again when the
_Menstrual_ Flux is over, you may take it for granted 't is nothing but
the _Whites_.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 18 02:14:00 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:14:00 -0500
Subject: Further Antedating of "Menstruation"
In-Reply-To: <p0432040dbe3afd89f8df@[130.132.231.245]>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.211400.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

menstruation (OED3 1753-4)

1686 Gideon Harvey _The Conclave of Physicians in Two Parts_ 87 (Early
English Books Online)  Where Nature was imployed in any beneficial
Evacuation (as in our case of Menstruation) she was not to be molested by
multiplicity of Medicines.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 18 02:22:59 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:22:59 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Menstruate"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502172111550.17652-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.212259.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

menstruate, v. (OED, 2., 1795)

1742 _Medical Essays and Observations_ volume 5, part 1, p. 213
(Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  I gave it to Nurses who contrary
to their Wish menstruated.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 18 02:28:20 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:28:20 -0500
Subject: Further Antedating of "Menstruate"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502172121140.18664-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.212820.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

menstruate, v. (OED3, 2., 1795)

1713 William Cockburn _The symptoms, nature, cause, and cure of a
gonorrhoea_ 93 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  The _Fluor Albus_
is easy to be known in Time of Menstruating.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From daisydancer99 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 18 02:22:43 2005
From: daisydancer99 at YAHOO.COM (daisy dancer)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 18:22:43 -0800
Subject: CFP: South Central American Dialect Society
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.182243.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Call for Papers

South Central American Dialect Society (Allied Session)

South Central MLA, Houston, TX, October 27-29, 2005

Conference Theme: ?Literary Space(s)?





Panel Theme: "Open Topic"



Papers or 500-word abstracts on "dialects," widely construed. Possible topics might include:



* dialects of new media (email, chat, etc.)

* Creole and creolization

* "pidgin" dialects

* "Spanglish" or other hybrid dialects

* dialect versus language

* technology-related jargon

* argots of the work place

* gender, class, or race based dialects

* dialects in language pedagogy

* preservation of dialects

* popular culture and slang dialects

* other dialect forms (visual, musical, architectural, etc.)



Please send abstracts or papers electronically (either in email body or as an attachment with extension .doc, .rtf, or .pdf) to session chair Daisy Pignetti at dpignett at taa.usf.edu no later than March 15, 2005. Presenters must be members of SCMLA by May 15, 2004.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 18 02:38:29 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:38:29 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Surgical"
In-Reply-To: <200502180232.j1I2WqcK021081@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.213829.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

surgical (OED 1770)

1707 _Glossographia Anglicana Nova_ (Eighteenth Century Collections
Online)  _Diorthasis_, a Surgical Operation, by which crooked or distorted
Members are made even.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 18 03:04:26 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:04:26 -0500
Subject: Teen Lingo site
In-Reply-To: <E1D1xYS-0006Xv-00@mx20.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.220426.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 17, 2005, at 9:07 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Teen Lingo site
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 8:49 PM -0500 2/17/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>> From the Teen Lingo site found by Patti Kurtz:
>>
>> beast
>>    n. Someone who dominates on the basketball court.
>
> For a while in the 80's, the expression "Beast of the East" was used
> in a college basketball context to pick out whichever team was
> dominant at a given time, in particular Georgetown of the Patrick
> Ewing era ('81-'85).    Wonder if this relates to the above.
>
>> Back in the late '50's in Los Angeles, "beast" was used by black male
>> college students to mean "girl friend." I assume that this application
>> was extracted from the saying, "[NP] not fit for man or beast"/"[NP]
>> fit for neither man nor beast."
>
> Hmmm.  As in the W. C. Fields line?  But that was about the
> weather--"It ain't a fit night out for man nor beast" (please
> correct, Fred)
>
> larry
>

Re "beast" as "girl friend": the source, whatever its actual reading,
could very well be the quotation from W. C. Fields. But what Fields was
referring to doesn't matter, since the use of "beast" for "girl friend"
was understood as a pun, as though "man" meant an individual male human
being and not humanity and "beast" meant an individual non-male human
being and not the animal kingdom.

-Wilson


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 18 03:39:45 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:39:45 -0500
Subject: "Pompatus"
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.223945.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Have you ever wondered what the bleep the "pompatus of love" is? If you
have, check out the following site:

<http://www.evenmore.com/dope.htm>

-Wilson


From SClements at NEO.RR.COM  Fri Feb 18 03:47:30 2005
From: SClements at NEO.RR.COM (Sam Clements)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 22:47:30 -0500
Subject: "Pompatus"
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.224730.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And that, boys and girls, is just an example of the value of The Straight
Dope.

Sam Clements

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 10:39 PM
Subject: "Pompatus"


> Have you ever wondered what the bleep the "pompatus of love" is? If you
> have, check out the following site:
>
> <http://www.evenmore.com/dope.htm>
>
> -Wilson
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 18 04:08:31 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:08:31 -0500
Subject: "Pompatus"
In-Reply-To: <E1D1z7B-0002lF-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.230831.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You ain't just a-bird-turdin'! I own both the original 78 - in 1954, I
bought it for "Buick '59"; "The Letter" was the B-side - and the CD
re-issue and, until tonight, the only thing that I could say for
certain was that "pompatus" couldn't possibly be right. Useless further
information: in 1959, "Buick '59" was re-issued and became as big a hit
as it had been back in '54.

-Wilson

On Feb 17, 2005, at 10:47 PM, Sam Clements wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Sam Clements <SClements at NEO.RR.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Pompatus"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> And that, boys and girls, is just an example of the value of The
> Straight
> Dope.
>
> Sam Clements
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 10:39 PM
> Subject: "Pompatus"
>
>
>> Have you ever wondered what the bleep the "pompatus of love" is? If
>> you
>> have, check out the following site:
>>
>> <http://www.evenmore.com/dope.htm>
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 18 04:45:37 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 23:45:37 -0500
Subject: As Buddy Holly once sang:
Message-ID: <THU.17.FEB.2005.234537.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"It really doesn't matter anymore."

He was right, if a patron's review of a book on Amazon.com is any
indication:

"It doesn't _madder_ if you aced the ACT's ...."

-Wilson Gray


From mckernan at LOCALNET.COM  Fri Feb 18 06:34:08 2005
From: mckernan at LOCALNET.COM (Michael McKernan)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 01:34:08 -0500
Subject: As Buddy Holly once sang:
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.013408.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray wrote;

>"It really doesn't matter anymore."
>
>He was right, if a patron's review of a book on Amazon.com is any
>indication:
>
>"It doesn't _madder_ if you aced the ACT's ...."

excellent example of what Pinker calls 'the rule which converts 't' to a
flapped 'd''



Michael McKernan


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 18 08:14:11 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 03:14:11 EST
Subject: "Midnight in Venice" and "Sublime Indiscretion" cakes
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.031411.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

SUBLIME INDISCRETION--58 Google hits,  0 Google Groups hits
MIDNIGHT IN VENICE + CAAKE--17 Google hits, 0 Google Groups hits
...
...
Greetings from the "World's Second Home." I have a second home? I have a  
tiny studio apartment and no health care and no wife and no kids. Second  home??
...
I went to Enest Klein & Company, 1366 6th Avenue (between 55th and 56th  
Streets). I saw "Midnight in Venice" and "Sublime Indiscretion."
...
...
...
(GOOGLE)
_Sublime Indiscretion Chocolate Cappuccino Cake  $36.95 <br>_ 
(http://www.ottomanelli.com/subinchoccap.html) 
Click to enlarge. Under this  stunning marbleized ganache design are multiple
layers of cappuccino cream  and chocolate cake. otto272 $36.95. ... 
www.ottomanelli.com/subinchoccap.html - 6k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:AtNOOvozUawJ:www.ottomanelli.com/subinchoccap.html+"sublime+indi
scretion"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.ottomanelli.com/subinchoccap.html)  
...
_Old Man Rafferty's - American Dining in New Brunswick,  NJ_ 
(http://oldmanraffertys.com/index.php/pg=menus/desserts.html) 
... Topped With Chocolate Moons.  Sublime Indiscretion A Rich Chocolate Layer 
Cake
Flavored With  Cappuccino & Just A Hint Of Peanut Butter. ... 
oldmanraffertys.com/index.php/pg=menus/desserts.html - 24k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:aKwOb4nKOOwJ:oldmanraffertys.com/index.php/pg=me
nus/desserts.html+"sublime+indiscretion"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:oldmanraffertys.com/i
ndex.php/pg=menus/desserts.html)  
...
_Desserts - Gourmet Food - Buy Gourmet at Everyday  Prices!_ 
(http://www.buygourmet.net/catalog/1542/Reviews/6/) 
... days, $15.99. Sublime  Indiscretion Chocolate Cappuccino Cake 
Availability:
Usually ships in  3-4 business days, $36.95. German Chocolate ... 
www.buygourmet.net/catalog/1542/Reviews/6/ - 17k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:M0_CaL5mW9QJ:www.buygourmet.net/catalog/1542/Reviews/6/+"s
ublime+indiscretion"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.buygourmet.net/catalog/1542/Reviews/6
/)  
...
_Sublime Indiscretion Chocolate Cappuccino Cake -  Gourmet_ 
(http://www.eisshinryu.com/cgi-bin/amazon_products_feed-item_id-B0000FSN5Y-search_type-AsinSearc
h-locale-us.html) 
Gourmet : Sublime Indiscretion  Chocolate Cappuccino Cake. ... from: 
Ottomanelli.com. :
Sublime  Indiscretion Chocolate Cappuccino Cake See Larger Image. ...  
www.eisshinryu.com/cgi-bin/amazon_products_  
feed-item_id-B0000FSN5Y-search_type-AsinSearch-locale-us.html - 9k -  Supplemental Result - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:o9ATySmNfu4J:www.eisshinryu.com/cgi-bin/amazon_pro
ducts_feed-item_id-B0000FSN5Y-search_type-AsinSearch-locale-us.html+"sublime+i
ndiscretion"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.eisshinryu.com/cgi-bin/amazon_products_feed-i
tem_id-B0000FSN5Y-search_type-AsinSearch-locale-us.html)  
...
_::  Sublime-Indiscretion-Chocolate-Cappuccino-Cake.html_ 
(http://www.afterlife-mausoleum-cremation.com/a/B0000FSN5Y/Sublime-Indiscretion-Chocolate-Cappucci
no-Cake.html) 
Sublime Indiscretion Chocolate Cappuccino Cake ID:  B0000FSN5Y by
Ottomanelli.com. Product Type: Gourmet Features A true creation  ... 
www.afterlife-mausoleum-cremation.com/a/  
B0000FSN5Y/Sublime-Indiscretion-Chocolate-Cappuccino-Cake.html - 3k -  Supplemental Result - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:_jtW3e8SPIUJ:www.afterlife-mausoleum-cremation.com/a
/B0000FSN5Y/Sublime-Indiscretion-Chocolate-Cappuccino-Cake.html+"sublime+indis
cretion"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.afterlife-mausoleum-cremation.com/a/B0000FSN5Y/Su
blime-Indiscretion-Chocolate-Cappuccino-Cake.html)  
...
_Ottomanelli s The Chocolate Attraction Gift Basket at alternistock  ..._ 
(http://www.alternistock.com/a/B00005UFD5/Ottomanelli-s-The-Chocolate-Attraction-G
ift-Basket.html) 
... Ivory and Gold Gateau Cake,  Ottomanelli.com Sublime Indiscretion 
Chocolate Cappuccino
Cake,  Ottomanelli.com Chocolate Birthday Wishes Gift Selection ... 
www.alternistock.com/a/B00005UFD5/  
Ottomanelli-s-The-Chocolate-Attraction-Gift-Basket.html - 20k - Supplemental  Result - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:c1kULq6UXAYJ:www.alternistock.com/a/B00005UFD5/Ottomanelli-s-The
-Chocolate-Attraction-Gift-Basket.html+"sublime+indiscretion"&hl=en&ie=UTF-8) 
 - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.alternistock.com/a/B00005UFD5/Ottomanelli-s-The-Chocolate-Attraction-Gif
t-Basket.html)  
...
...
...
(GOOGLE)
...
_Baltimore City Paper: COLUMNS Ed, Edd, and  Eddie's_ 
(http://www.citypaper.com/columns/story.asp?id=1802) 
... Cooler shelves are loaded with  exotic desserts, like a seven-inch cake 
covered in
shaved almonds  labeled "Midnight in Venice" and priced at $15.99.  ... 
www.citypaper.com/columns/story.asp?id=1802 -  16k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:-Ddnz7zqtYoJ:www.citypaper.com/columns/story.asp?id=1802
+"midnight+in+venice"+cake&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.citypaper.com/columns/story.asp
?id=1802)  
...
_Welcome to Morris County - Booton, Chatham, Dover, Morristown  ..._ 
(http://www.online96.com/towns/morris/rest.html) 
... fabulous broiled seafood  platter ($17.95) featuring clams, mussels, 
scallops, a
lobster tail, monkfish  and salmon, and Midnight in Venice cake ($3.95) ?  
was ... 
www.online96.com/towns/morris/rest.html -  59k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:vp8dCHhPXiwJ:www.online96.com/towns/morris/rest.html+"midnig
ht+in+venice"+cake&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.online96.com/towns/morris/rest.html)  
...
_Mama's  Pizza and Cafe Baci - Gourmet Coffees & Desserts_ 
(http://www.mamascafebaci.com/gourmet.html) 
... Midnight in Venice. Take a gondola ride  and experience chocolate and 
vanilla cake
layered with cannoli filing  & covered with mountains of bitter sweet 
chocolate ... 
www.mamascafebaci.com/gourmet.html - 13k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:oQx-uWcBd0AJ:www.mamascafebaci.com/gourmet.html+"midnight+in+venic
e"+cake&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.mamascafebaci.com/gourmet.html)  
...
_Claudio's  Restaurant_ (http://www.where-to-dine.com/M/M2201.asp) 
... crust, $4.25. MIDNIGHT  IN VENICE - Three layer cake filled with cannoli
cream  and topped with dark chocolate, $4.25. ORIGINAL HOLEY ... 
www.where-to-dine.com/M/M2201.asp - 23k - Supplemental Result - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:O9Kp2r1aghgJ:www.where-to-dine.com/M/M2201.as
p+"midnight+in+venice"+cake&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.where-to-dine.com/M/M2201.asp)
  
...
_LIGHTER  SIDE: "De Gustibus"_ (http://www.plannedstrategies.com/degust.html) 
... Peach/Walnut/Cheese  ring, croissant, Assorted Miniature pastries, 
Midnight in  Venice
(Cake), Yulelog, Baker?s Perfection, Green Pond Road,  Rockaway NJ. ... 
www.plannedstrategies.com/degust.html - 17k - Supplemental Result  - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:vMHDCXkqlmEJ:www.plannedstrategies.com/d
egust.html+"midnight+in+venice"+cake&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.plannedstrategies.com
/degust.html)  


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 18 08:44:14 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 03:44:14 EST
Subject: "This is the day we give babies away" (1890s)
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.034414.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Google Answers made $15. I can provide a better answr faster, and I
guarantee you, I'll probably never make $15 the rest of my life.
...
...
...
_http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=476372_
(http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=476372)
...

What's the origin of the following saying? "This is the day they give

babies away with a pound of butter."
...
...
Subject: Re: origin of this aphorism
Answered By: _pinkfreud-ga_
(http://answers.google.com/answers/ratings?user=8557989531679117785)  on 17 Feb 2005 21:35 PST
  This line comes from an old song. Apparently the original version had

"half a pound of tea" instead of "a pound of butter." "Half a pound of

cheese" is also sometimes mentioned. According to some sources, the

song may date to the early part of the Twentieth Century. It was

widespread by the 1920s.



"This is the day we give babies away

 With a half a pound of tea

 You just open the lid, and out pops the kid

 With a twelve month guarantee.



'The Day They Gave Babies Away,' a story by Dale Eunson that appeared

in the Christmas 1946 issue of Cosmopolitan, their most successful

Christmas story ever. It was published as a book the following year.

The reference also mentioned a soldiers' ditty circulating in the

1940s that went 'Today is the day they give babies away / with a half

a pound of tea. / If you know any ladies who want any babies / Just

send them around to me.'



I can add references in Vance Randolph's Roll Me in Your Arms:

"Unprintable" Ozark Folksongs and Folklore (Univ. of Arkansas Press,

1992) and Ed Cray's 2nd edition of The Erotic Muse (Univ. of Illinois

Press, 1992), which mention its inclusion in a Josiah Combs 1925 book

of Kentucky/West Virginia folk songs and G. Legman's recollection of

the song in Scranton ca. 1925. A Google search revealed a number of

interesting recollections and usages (including another short story)

of the song and title, one or two of which may be earlier than 1925,

possibly from the turn of the (previous) century."



from Sing Out! The Folk Song Magazine: The Songfinder

_http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1197/is_1_48/ai_113887014_
(http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1197/is_1_48/ai_113887014)



Here you'll find a long thread discussing the song:



The Mudcat Cafe: Today's the day we give babies away

_http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=50412_
(http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=50412)



My Google search strategy:



Google Web Search: "day * give babies away"

_http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22day+*+give+babies+away%22_
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="day+*+give+babies+away")



I hope this is helpful. If anything is unclear or incomplete, please

request clarification; I'll be glad to offer further assistance before

you rate my answer.



Best regards,

pinkfreud


...
...
...
...

(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
     _Evening State Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2i/c0lm3dQ8O434h6TH5qPc455wPLPq9cEIF+CsZYmrz)  Friday,
August 10, 1928 _Lincoln,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lincoln+this+is+the+day+and+give+babies+away)  _Nebraska_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nebraska+this+is+the+day+and+give+ba
bies+away)
...of you, AND play  "THIS IS THE DAY THEy  GIVE BABIES AWAY" on a set of
pearly.....used In thai  NeTHErlANDs. New York DAY by DAY. By O. O.  Mtlntyre.
OPENED..
...

_Nevada State Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=NuHyyu1GcYSKID/6NLMW2kIbN5DJFP4VixULPCNvE2VqsC6fUmwfvw==)  Thursday, June 08, 1911
_Reno,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:reno+this+is+the+day+and+give+babies+away)  _Nevada_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nevada+this+is+the+day+and+give+babies+away)
...BLUE-EYED BABY I  THIS IS THE DAY Tfiey GIVE  BABIES AWAY. Do You Want a
Little.....THIS  IS tho dtiy THEj- GIVE AWAY. onc'i ion a.  lil'tle 'with..

Pg. 8, col. 6:
_BLUE-EYED BABY_
_WANTS A HOME_

_This Is the Day They Give_
_Babies Away. Do You_
_Want a Little Fairy?_

This is the day they give babies away. Want one?
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_Queries  and Answers_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=86893066&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108715323&cli
entId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current file).  New York, N.Y.: Jan 4, 1948. p. BR27 (1
page)
...
_"Give Babies Away"_
MISS GRACE H. LIBEY, Howe, Ind.: In answer to B. E. (Nov. 16) the  lines
wanted are a jingle that reads complete as follows. It was used to  afvertise some
packaged tea between 1893 and 1902 and pictures of babies  accompanied the
package.
...
Today is the day we give babies away with a half a pound of tea.
...
If you know any ladies who want any babies, just send them around to  me.
...
There are white babies and black babies and babies of every degree.
...
For this is the day we give babies away with a half a pound of tea.
...
Miss Gertrude Gordon, Matilda M. Stern of New York, and E. Bolles,
Harrington Park, N. J., answered this request.
...
Dr. J. Hart Toland, Philadelphia, Pa., and Mrs. Dave Reed, N. Y., wrote  that
the original version of this parody was the lyric to George Rosey's
"Honeymoon March" (words by Dave Reed Jr.) published in 1895 by Jos. Stern &  Co. The
Edward N. Marks Music Corporation is the present owner of the copyright.  A
book titled "The Day They Gave Babies Away," by Dale Eunson was published in
November of last year.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 18 08:56:07 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 03:56:07 EST
Subject: "This is the day we give babies away" (1890s)
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.035607.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Google Answers made $15. I can provide a better answer faster, and I
guarantee you, I'll probably never make $15 the rest of my life. Oh well.
...
...
...
_http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=476372_
(http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=476372)
...

What's the origin of the following saying? "This is the day they give

babies away with a pound of butter."
(Long answer with html not re-printed here. It was traced to the 1920s--ed.)
...
...
,,,

(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
     _Evening State Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=W0CtXEq/mhWKID/6NLMW2i/c0lm3dQ8O434h6TH5qPc455wPLPq9cEIF+CsZYmrz)  Friday,
August 10, 1928 _Lincoln,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:lincoln+this+is+the+day+and+give+babies+away)  _Nebraska_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nebraska+this+is+the+day+and+give+ba
bies+away)
...of you, AND play  "THIS IS THE DAY THEy  GIVE BABIES AWAY" on a set of
pearly.....used In thai  NeTHErlANDs. New York DAY by DAY. By O. O.  Mtlntyre.
OPENED..
...

_Nevada State Journal _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=NuHyyu1GcYSKID/6NLMW2kIbN5DJFP4VixULPCNvE2VqsC6fUmwfvw==)  Thursday, June 08, 1911
_Reno,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:reno+this+is+the+day+and+give+babies+away)  _Nevada_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:nevada+this+is+the+day+and+give+babies+away)
...BLUE-EYED BABY I  THIS IS THE DAY Tfiey GIVE  BABIES AWAY. Do You Want a
Little.....THIS  IS tho dtiy THEj- GIVE AWAY. onc'i ion a.  lil'tle 'with..

Pg. 8, col. 6:
_BLUE-EYED BABY_
_WANTS A HOME_

_This Is the Day They Give_
_Babies Away. Do You_
_Want a Little Fairy?_

This is the day they give babies away. Want one?
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_Queries  and Answers_
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=86893066&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108715323&cli
entId=65882)
New York Times (1857-Current file).  New York, N.Y.: Jan 4, 1948. p. BR27 (1
page)
...
_"Give Babies Away"_
MISS GRACE H. LIBEY, Howe, Ind.: In answer to B. E. (Nov. 16) the  lines
wanted are a jingle that reads complete as follows. It was used to  advertise some
packaged tea between 1893 and 1902 and pictures of babies  accompanied the
package.
...
Today is the day we give babies away with a half a pound of tea.
...
If you know any ladies who want any babies, just send them around to  me.
...
There are white babies and black babies and babies of every degree.
...
For this is the day we give babies away with a half a pound of tea.
...
Miss Gertrude Gordon, Matilda M. Stern of New York, and E. Bolles,
Harrington Park, N. J., answered this request.
...
Dr. J. Hart Toland, Philadelphia, Pa., and Mrs. Dave Reed, N. Y., wrote  that
the original version of this parody was the lyric to George Rosey's
"Honeymoon March" (words by Dave Reed Jr.) published in 1895 by Jos. Stern &  Co. The
Edward N. Marks Music Corporation is the present owner of the copyright.  A
book titled "The Day They Gave Babies Away," by Dale Eunson was published in
November of last year.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 18 09:10:45 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 04:10:45 EST
Subject: "Crazy...but it just might work" (1971)
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.041045.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

O.T..: Sorry for the double-posting. ADS-L is slow.
...
...
One more from Google Answers. Did Herblock coin this?
...
...
...
_http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=475894_
(http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=475894)
...

It's a crazy plan, but it might just work!" - who said or popularised this
phrase?
...
...
    Subject: Re: Origin of a popular  phrase
From: _pinkfreud-ga_
(http://answers.google.com/answers/ratings?user=8557989531679117785)   on 17 Feb 2005 10:36 PST
I associate this with the '70s television series "Happy Days," but I

don't think the show invented the phrase.
...
...
...
...

(NEWSPAPERARCHIVE)
...
     _ Sheboygan Press _
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Viewer.aspx?img=Ga2xMtpV76yKID/6NLMW2hAToVF3DSHinPfIZlHem6FkwiQv6ACx4UIF+CsZYmrz)  Tuesday, April
20,  1971 _Sheboygan,_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=city:sheboygan+crazy+and+but+it+just+might+work)   _Wisconsin_
(http://www.newspaperarchive.com/Search.aspx?Search=state:wisconsin+crazy+and+but+it+just+might+
work)     ...Ballyhooed "IT's A  CRAZY Idea BUT IT JUST MIGHT  WORK"
Washington Merry-Go.....that will not only bring Calley to  JUST.ce BUT will also
implicate  those..

...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_For  the Record . . .; The Similar Objectives Of tile U.S., U.S.S.R. _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=157235392&SrchMode=1&sid=1&Fmt=10&VInst=
PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108717150&clientId=65882)
The Washington Post, Times Herald (1959-1973). Washington,  D.C.: Apr 16,
1971. p. A26 (1 page) :
...
_"It's A Crazy Idea But It Just Might Work"_
(Herblock cartoon caption--ed.)


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 18 12:28:21 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 04:28:21 -0800
Subject: As Buddy Holly once sang:
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.042821.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There is so much similar stuff in the patron reviews on Amazon that one could while away many hours copying and pasting.

A peek at the English of Tomorrow.  Today..

JL

Michael McKernan <mckernan at LOCALNET.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Michael McKernan
Subject: Re: As Buddy Holly once sang:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wilson Gray wrote;

>"It really doesn't matter anymore."
>
>He was right, if a patron's review of a book on Amazon.com is any
>indication:
>
>"It doesn't _madder_ if you aced the ACT's ...."

excellent example of what Pinker calls 'the rule which converts 't' to a
flapped 'd''



Michael McKernan

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 18 14:24:49 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 06:24:49 -0800
Subject: geoduck
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.062449.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This "love mussel" business has inadvertently revealed that the clam spelled "geoduck" was most likely pronounced /'gu i d at k/ originally - and it still is.

OED, however, with a single cite from 1883, gives only the spelling pronunciation.

Was this a mere shot in the dark by the Oxford Dons?

More interesting - why did  we start spelling  "gooeyduck" as "geoduck," and is this the weirdest mismatch since "hiccup / hiccough" ?

JL


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Feb 18 14:39:47 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:39:47 -0500
Subject: geoduck
In-Reply-To: <20050218142449.25258.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.093947.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Feb 18, 2005 at 06:24:49AM -0800, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> This "love mussel" business has inadvertently revealed that the clam spelled "geoduck" was most likely pronounced /'gu i d at k/ originally - and it still is.
>
> OED, however, with a single cite from 1883, gives only the spelling pronunciation.
>
> Was this a mere shot in the dark by the Oxford Dons?

Yes.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA  Fri Feb 18 14:58:15 2005
From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 09:58:15 -0500
Subject: ADS newsletter
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.095815.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Allan,

(1) I may be behind the times, but I have been wondering if there have been
any ADS newsletters since June 2003.

> ADS members will, of course, get paper copies, to be sent by first-class
> mail by the end of this week. (from below).

Is that still true?

(2) If I may ask a favour, do you think my query to Charles Carson appended
below was improper? If so, can you give me an unofficial nonbinding answer?
I just want to make sure I am not throwing away the few remaining copies of
the test printing of the dictionary.

Many thanks.

TOM

From: "Thomas Paikeday" <thomaspaikeday at sprint.ca>
To: <carson at duke.edu>
Subject: May I?
Date: February 16, 2005 3:04 PM

Dear Dr. Carson,

Although I am a life member of ADS, I don't think we have met. I have been
leading a solitary life as a lexicographer.

As a life member, I don't get to see American Speech unless I pay for a
subscription which I haven't been able to afford as a senior on life
support. I can't even seem to be able to access the online journal. I wanted
to find out if you publish reviews of pedestrian works like American English
dictionaries for the masses. What I have in mind is my User's Webster
Dictionary which was test-marketed in a 2000-copy printing and is to be
formally launched soon, hopefully, by a commercial publisher. Instead of
sending you a review copy "over the transom" (and there are only a few
copies of the test printing left), I thought I might write and ask if you
will consider the dictionary for a review in AS. Actually , the complete
dictionary is online at www.paikeday.net. I am merely asking if the book
qualifies, whether you decide to have it reviewed or not.

Thanks for a reply at your convenience.

Regards.

TOM PAIKEDAY

----- Original Message -----
From: <AAllan at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2003 7:58 PM
Subject: New ADS newsletter


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       AAllan at AOL.COM
> Subject:      New ADS newsletter
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Well! If you go to our website
> http://americandialect.org/
> you'll find that the latest Newsletter of the American Dialect Society has
> been posted there. It's the May issue, admittedly a month late, but for
> the
> first time ever a May issue with the full programs for our four regional
> meetings
> in the fall, complete with abstracts. That was always a problem with the
> September issue, the meetings coming so soon after the date of issue, and
> the issue
> often missing its date. After only a quarter-century of contemplation,
> your
> editor has finally invented this improvement. What's more, along with the
> names
> of their authors the email addresses are provided, so you can get in touch
> with them.
>   And that's not all! but go to the website and note what further is
> available.
>   ADS members will, of course, get paper copies, to be sent by first-class
> mail by the end of this week.
> - Allan Metcalf, editor and ADS executive secretary
>


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 18 15:07:41 2005
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:07:41 -0500
Subject: ADS newsletter
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.100741.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Tom, I regret and am embarrassed to have to say that there has not been an ADS newsletter since May 2003. My time has just been occupied with other matters, though I keep on thinking I'll manage.

This year we're hoping that Grant Barrett, the webmaster, will be able to publish the newsletter. It might be possible soon.

Your request to Charles Carson is perfectly proper. Whether you'll get a review is less certain, just because American Speech doesn't have that many reviews and reviewers.

Next week, when I'm back at my other computer, I'll give you instructions on accessing American Speech online.

Best wishes - Allan


From AAllan at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 18 15:16:24 2005
From: AAllan at AOL.COM (AAllan at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:16:24 -0500
Subject: CFP: ADS Annual Meeting, Albuquerque 2006
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.101624.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To ADS members:
  Everything you wanted to know about our next Annual Meeting is now posted prominently on the spiffy new home page of our website, www.americandialect.org, thanks to our webmaster Grant.
  - Allan Metcalf


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 18 18:22:53 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:22:53 -0500
Subject: Pay--to-Pray; AM-NEW YORK front cover
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.132253.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

PAY-TO-PRAY

We discussed "pay-to-say." It's usually "pay-to-play." From today's New York Post, 18 February 2005, pg. 31, col. 3:

The Bloomberg administration yesterday cameout against a move by city lawmakers to end Sunday parking-meter rules.
(...)
"The administration doesn't seem to understand how offensive it is for people [in] pay-to-pray situations," said Vincent Gentile (D-Brooklyn).

--------------------------------------------------------------
AM-NEW YORK, February 18-20, 2005, pg. 1:

_NY's nickname_

_Bloomberg wants to call the Big Apple,_
_"The World's Second Home"_

(...)

In the early '70s, Charles Gillett, president of the New York Convention and Visitors Bureau, rescued "The Big Apple" from obscurity for a new publicity campaign. In the 1920s, John J. Fitz (sic), a reporter for the Morning Telegraph, popularized the term when using it to refer to the city's racetracks, according to the Encyclopedia of New York City. He heard the phrase from black stablehands in New Orleans. In the 1930s, jazz musicians carred on the nickname.


(All right. So, if I have sex with Mike Piazza, maybe I can get the front page and credit for my work, too? And is the city finally going to look for the stablehands? Just askin'. Back to parking tickets--ed.)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 18 18:42:43 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:42:43 -0500
Subject: "This is the day we give babies away" (1890s)
In-Reply-To: <1a6.31ec3902.2f4704de@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.134243.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:44 AM -0500 2/18/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>
>What's the origin of the following saying? "This is the day they give
>
>babies away with a pound of butter."
>...
>...
>Subject: Re: origin of this aphorism
>Answered By: _pinkfreud-ga_
>(http://answers.google.com/answers/ratings?user=8557989531679117785)
>on 17 Feb 2005 21:35 PST
>   This line comes from an old song. Apparently the original version had
>
>"half a pound of tea" instead of "a pound of butter." "Half a pound of
>
>cheese" is also sometimes mentioned. According to some sources, the
>
>song may date to the early part of the Twentieth Century. It was
>
>widespread by the 1920s.
>
>
>
>"This is the day we give babies away
>
>  With a half a pound of tea
>
>  You just open the lid, and out pops the kid
>
>  With a twelve month guarantee.
>
>
>
>'The Day They Gave Babies Away,' a story by Dale Eunson that appeared
>
>in the Christmas 1946 issue of Cosmopolitan, their most successful
>
>Christmas story ever. It was published as a book the following year.
>
>The reference also mentioned a soldiers' ditty circulating in the
>
>1940s that went 'Today is the day they give babies away / with a half
>
>a pound of tea. / If you know any ladies who want any babies / Just
>
>send them around to me.'

I have a cassette of folk-singer Rosalie Sorrels doing her "Hostile
Baby Rocking Song", accompanied by a spoken preamble.  It's actually
quite lovely.  I tracked down both the intro and the lyrics on the
web; you'll recognize the quatrain above, in the 1/2-pound-of-tea
version:

==============================
All right, it's 5:30 in the morning.  That kid has not quit howling
now for six hours.  You're getting sort of desperate, breaking out
into a cold sweat because you know that all those other kids are
going to get up in about another half hour and they're going to
demand cereal and peanut sandwiches and milk. And you forgot to get
milk.  Oh, God.  All the paregoric is gone. It's gone because you
drank it.  Things are getting awful bad and you need something else.
Every culture's got one:  it's the hostile baby-rocking song.  You
just can't keep all that stuff bottled up inside yourself.  You need
to let it out some way, or you'd get strange . . . punch the baby in
the mouth . . . and you
can't do that.  You'd get an awful big ticket for it, and it makes
you feel lousy.  So you take that baby and you rock it firmly, smile
sweetly . . . and you sing the hostile baby-rocking song:

This is the day we give babies away
With a half a pound of tea
You just open the lid, and out pops the kid
With a twelve month guarantee.

This is the day we give babies away
With a half a pound of tea
If you know any ladies who want any babies
Just send them round to me

[chorus:]
There's an island way out in the sea
Where babies grow up on the trees
It's oh so much fun, to swing in the sun
But you have to watch out if you sneeze, you sneeze
You have to watch out if you sneeze

You have to watch out if you sneeze
'Cause swinging up there in the breeze
If you happen to cough, you might very well fall off
And tumble down flop on your knees, your knees
And tumble down flop on your knees.
And when the stormy winds wail
And the breezes blow up in a gale
There's oh such a plopping and flopping and dropping
And fat little babies just hail, just hail
And fat little babies just hail.

And the babies lie there in a pile
And grownups come after a while
And they always pass by any babies that cry
They take only babies that smile, that smile
Take triplets or twins if they'll smile

[repeat chorus]
==========
Larry


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 18 23:58:54 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:58:54 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Phallic"
In-Reply-To: <200502180915.j1I9F5UQ030072@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.185854.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

phallic (OED 1789)

1733 Bernard Picart _The ceremonies and religious customs of the various
nations of the known world_ 20 (Eighteeenth Century Collections Online)
_Aristophanes_ in _Acharnan._ speaks of _Phallic_ Verses sung in Honour of
the _Phallas_, or _membrum virile_, which was carried in Pomp in the
_Bacchanalia_.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 19 00:02:53 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:02:53 -0500
Subject: Further Antedating of "Phallic"
In-Reply-To: <200502180915.j1I9F5UQ030072@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.190253.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

phallic (OED 1789)

1704 _Plutarchs Morals: translated from the Greek by several hands_ (ed.
4) IV. 94 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  They keep the Feast of
the _Pamylia_, which is a _Phallic_ or _Priapejan_ one.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 19 00:10:30 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:10:30 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Amnesia"
In-Reply-To: <200502180915.j1I9F5UQ030072@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.191030.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

amnesia (OED 1786)

1782 John Aitken _Elements of the theory and practice of physic and
surgery_ 520 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  Species of Amnesia.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 19 00:19:26 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 19:19:26 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Tourist"
In-Reply-To: <200502180915.j1I9F5UQ030072@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.191926.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

tourist (OED 1780)

1775 Thomas Quincey _A short tour in the midland counties of England_ 91
(Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  Every article of the work is made
to assist the others as much as possible, which (says a celebrated
tourist) "is the grand art of oeconomical management."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Sat Feb 19 02:22:07 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:22:07 -0600
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.202207.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hi everyone.  We've discussed films in which language features
prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to compile is a list of
films in which the characters speak in dialects.  (for example,
"Fargo")  for my dialects class.  I'd like names of both films that
represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and those that don't,
since we're going to talk about dialects in the media at some point.  I
can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can think of more.  And I'm
thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than films like "American
Tongues."

Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by me and by my
students, who are enjoying the course a lot!

Thanks!

Patti Kurtz
Minot State University
--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 19 02:29:59 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:29:59 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Nostalgia"
In-Reply-To: <200502190019.j1J0J3CH001114@pantheon-po06.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.212959.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

nostalgia (OED 1756)

1729 Jonathan Harle _An historical essay on the state of physick in the
Old and New Testament_ 70 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  _Desire
of being at home._ ... _Alberti's Introd. Med._ p. 415. where it is
described, and called _Nostalgia_.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 19 02:32:54 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:32:54 -0500
Subject: Another Antedating of "Nostalgia"
In-Reply-To: <200502190019.j1J0J3CH001114@pantheon-po06.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.213254.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

nostalgia (OED3 1756)

1754 Richard Brookes _An Introduction to Physic and Surgery_ 54
(Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  NOSTALGIA is a Kind of
_Melancholy_ arising from a Desire of returning to the Country in which
the Patient was born.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Feb 19 02:41:58 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:41:58 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.184158.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Sergeant York" (1941).  Great movie, utterly wrong "East Tennessee" accents:    Gary Cooper (Helena, MT), Walter Brennan (Swampscott, MA), Joan Leslie (Detroit, MI / Los Angeles, CA), and Margaret Wycherly (London, Eng.) turn in fine performances anyway. Comic-relief George Tobias (NYC) sounds better as a working-class New Yorker of the period - or so it seems to me.

JL

"Patti J. Kurtz" <kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz"
Subject: Dialects in film
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi everyone. We've discussed films in which language features
prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to compile is a list of
films in which the characters speak in dialects. (for example,
"Fargo") for my dialects class. I'd like names of both films that
represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and those that don't,
since we're going to talk about dialects in the media at some point. I
can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can think of more. And I'm
thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than films like "American
Tongues."

Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by me and by my
students, who are enjoying the course a lot!

Thanks!

Patti Kurtz
Minot State University
--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Feb 19 02:51:52 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 18:51:52 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.185152.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I understand that Dick Van Dyke's Cockney in "Mary Poppins" is regarded as appalling by many English people.

In fact, most stars before the age of intensive dialect coaching just muddled through "dialect" roles.  Kevin Costner (CA) was ridiculed for his "Hyannisport" accent in "Fourteen Days," but to a geezer saturated in the JFK era, he seemed OK.

Gwyneth Paltrow (CA / MA) as "Emma" ? She sure fooled me !

JL

"Patti J. Kurtz" <kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz"
Subject: Dialects in film
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi everyone. We've discussed films in which language features
prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to compile is a list of
films in which the characters speak in dialects. (for example,
"Fargo") for my dialects class. I'd like names of both films that
represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and those that don't,
since we're going to talk about dialects in the media at some point. I
can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can think of more. And I'm
thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than films like "American
Tongues."

Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by me and by my
students, who are enjoying the course a lot!

Thanks!

Patti Kurtz
Minot State University
--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb 19 03:38:14 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:38:14 EST
Subject: "Call me a cab/taxi" (1901)
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.223814.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This probably comes from a humor magazine such as Life, Puck, Judge, or  
Texas Siftings. Here it is in the mouth of a famous American.
...
...
...
...
(GOOGLE)
_The  Coffee Place's Joke Stack_ (http://www.thecoffeepla
ce.com/Jokes/aaaaabjk.html) 
The Coffee Place's Joke  Stack. "Call me a taxi," said the fat man. "Okay,"  
said
the doorman. "You're a taxi, but you look  more like a truck to me." ... ... 
www.thecoffeeplace.com/Jokes/aaaaabjk.html - 2k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:TqttnGezcvgJ:www.thecoffeeplace.com/Jokes/aaaaabjk.html+"ca
ll+me+a+taxi"+"you're+a+taxi&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.thecoffeeplace.com/Jokes/aaaa
abjk.html)         
...
...
...
(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
_MR.  CHOATE ARRAIGNED BEFORE THE LOTOS CLUB; Pleads Guilty to Intense Joy at 
Being  Home Again. Mr. Carnegie Testifies to New York's Good Government -- 
Senator  Depew, ex-Speaker Reed, and Mark Twain Also Heard. _ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=117977107&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQ
D&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108781135&clientId=65882) 
New  York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 17, 1901. p. 3 (1  
page) 
...
Mr. Howland added another to the collection of Choate anecdotes the dinner  
brought forth.
...
"At a certain drawing room in London," said he, "a guest approached Mr.  
Choate, who was in the conventional dress of the English waiter, and said, 'Call  
me a cab.' 'All right,' said Mr. Choate, 'if you wish it. You're a cab.'"  
[Laughter.]
...
...
_A  Choate Story._ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=1&did=546785872&SrchMode=1&sid=7&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108781801&client
Id=65882) 
The Atlanta Constitution  (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Jan 26, 1902. p. 7 (1 
page) 
...
(same as below, but from the Buffalo Commercial--ed.)
...
...
 
_Choate's  "Hansom" Apology._ 
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=2&did=546802432&SrchMode=1&sid=5&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=110878
1135&clientId=65882) 
The Atlanta Constitution  (1881-2001). Atlanta, Ga.: Feb 3, 1902. p. 5 (1 
page) 
...
Brooklyn Eagle: Now that Ambassador Choate has returned from "near the  Court 
of St. James," the following story, among many others about him,  is  in 
circulation: A semo-state reception was given at the residence of a certain  lord 
and Mr. Choate, in his "court dress" of plain broadcloth, was inconspicuous  
in comparison with the gold laced and insignia decorated representative of 
other  countries.
 
When the nigh was waning one of the departing guests, whose indulgence  
probably made him forget that English lackeys on such occasions were the livery  of 
their office, approached Mr. CHoate and requested him to call him a cab. The  
response was a blank stare. Upon his repeating the request: "Won;t you call 
me a  cab, please?" Mr. Choate responded: "Certainly. You're a cab." Imagine 
the  indignation of the insulted Englishman, who, upon making complaint to the 
host,  was asked, as a favor. to point out the offender.
 
After a search through the crowded saloons the Englishman was quite at the  
elbow of Mr. Choate when he exclaimed: "That's the man!" The whispered reply,  
"Why, that's the United States ambassador," was heard by Mr. Choate. Then a  
presentation and explanation of the unfortunate mistake. Mr. Choate, in his  
characteristic way, said: "My lord, the gentleman need not fell at all  
disturbed; I remember the circumstance very well. If the gentleman had been just  a 
little more polite I should have called him a 'hansom cab.'"
...
...
...
_http://www.bartleby.com/61/64/C0316400.html_ 
(http://www.bartleby.com/61/64/C0316400.html) 
...
Choate, Rufus
...
    DATES: 1799?1859   American politician who served as a U.S. 
representative  (1831?1834) and senator (1841?1845) from Massachusetts. His son Joseph  
Hodges Choate (1832?1917) was ambassador to Great Britain (1899?1905).  


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 19 03:54:54 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:54:54 -0500
Subject: "Call me a cab/taxi" (1901)
In-Reply-To: <1df.35af1b35.2f480ea6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.225454.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:38 PM -0500 2/18/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>This probably comes from a humor magazine such as Life, Puck, Judge, or
>Texas Siftings. Here it is in the mouth of a famous American.
>...
>...
>...
>...
>(GOOGLE)
>_The  Coffee Place's Joke Stack_ (http://www.thecoffeepla
>ce.com/Jokes/aaaaabjk.html)
>The Coffee Place's Joke  Stack. "Call me a taxi," said the fat man. "Okay,"
>said
>the doorman. "You're a taxi, but you look  more like a truck to me." ... ...
>www.thecoffeeplace.com/Jokes/aaaaabjk.html - 2k - _Cached_

How about the local variant--

Make me a malted.
Pffft--you're a malted.

larry


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Feb 19 03:54:58 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 22:54:58 -0500
Subject: More from "Teen Lingo"
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.225458.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

reggin weed
   bad weed/marijuana.

  In the black collegiate slang of '50's Los Angeles, "reggin" was used
as a pseudo-euphemism for "nigger," which, of course, spelled backward,
is "reggin."

-Wilson Gray


From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM  Sat Feb 19 03:56:43 2005
From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 21:56:43 -0600
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.215643.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The movie Southern Comfort has a Cajun villain with an embarrassing Cajun
accent.  I don't know where the dialect is from but it is not Cajun.
Dennis Quaid in The Big Easy does an OK job with his part New Orleans/part
Cajun  dialect.
I have seen many movies but can't name any offhand  that have New Orleanians
speaking with a southern drawl, which they don't (unless they are from
somelwhere else)

Another movie I have enjoyed is Shipping News with Kevin Spacey..  I don't
know what dialect it is but its interesting.  Can anyone tell me more about
it????
JN


> Hi everyone. We've discussed films in which language features
> prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to compile is a list of
> films in which the characters speak in dialects. (for example,
> "Fargo") for my dialects class. I'd like names of both films that
> represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and those that don't,
> since we're going to talk about dialects in the media at some point. I
> can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can think of more. And I'm
> thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than films like "American
> Tongues."
>
> Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by me and by my
> students, who are enjoying the course a lot!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Patti Kurtz
> Minot State University
> --
>
> Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?
>
>
>
> Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.
>
>
>
> Freeman - It's called dedication.
>
>
>
> Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Sat Feb 19 04:34:02 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 23:34:02 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=22Call?= me a =?utf-8?Q?cab/taxi=22?= (1901)
In-Reply-To: <p04320400be3c68c7a46c@[130.132.231.157]>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.233402.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about the ancient joke (c. 1970).  A hippy (with all the implications,
esp. high), comes upon an accident.  The victim of the accident says: "call
me an amulance."  The hippy says, "Ok, man.  You're an ambulance."

These live on.  Any new ones?

Jim

Laurence Horn writes:

> At 10:38 PM -0500 2/18/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>> This probably comes from a humor magazine such as Life, Puck, Judge, or
>> Texas Siftings. Here it is in the mouth of a famous American.
>> ...
>> ...
>> ...
>> ...
>> (GOOGLE)
>> _The  Coffee Place's Joke Stack_ (http://www.thecoffeepla
>> ce.com/Jokes/aaaaabjk.html)
>> The Coffee Place's Joke  Stack. "Call me a taxi," said the fat man.
>> "Okay,"
>> said
>> the doorman. "You're a taxi, but you look  more like a truck to me." ...
>> ...
>> www.thecoffeeplace.com/Jokes/aaaaabjk.html - 2k - _Cached_
>
> How about the local variant--
>
> Make me a malted.
> Pffft--you're a malted.
>
> larry
>
>
> --
> This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered to improve
> security, as described below.
>
> Sanitizer (start="1108785300"):
>  ParseHeader ():
>    Ignored junk while parsing header:
>
>  SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"):
>    Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"):
>      Enforced policy: accept
>
>
> See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information.



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From pds at VISI.COM  Sat Feb 19 05:08:18 2005
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 23:08:18 -0600
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <20050219035702.ADDF25D29@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.230818.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2/18/2005 09:56 PM -0600, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote:
>Another movie I have enjoyed is Shipping News with Kevin Spacey..  I don't
>know what dialect it is but its interesting.  Can anyone tell me more about
>it????

Newfoundland.  According to the DVD, the actor playing the cop/firefighter
in yellow rain gear at the scene of the accident, which was Spacey's first
reporting assignment, was a local.  He also served as dialect
coach.  Anyway, the rest of the cast who are supposed to be locals do sound
a lot like him.  The producers and director speak with pride that the cast
"nailed the accent."

One of my favorite exaggerated MN accents can be found in the mouths of
nearly all the characters in "Drop Dead Gorgeous" (1999)  Actually, I have
heard an accent that extreme in real life, but it was in central WI.

I'll let others judge the accuracy, but I sure have fun listening to the
Bronx or Brooklyn accents of Joe Pesci and Marisa Tomei in "My Cousin
Vinny" (1992).



   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
           http://www.visi.com/~pds


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb 19 05:30:18 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:30:18 EST
Subject: "Make me a malted" (1956); "Call me an ambulance" (1986)
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.003018.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

(PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS)
...
_Walter  Winchell . . . OF NEW YORK; Broadway Melody _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=121285796&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=10&VInst=PROD&VType=PQD&RQ
T=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108790617&clientId=65882)
The  Washington Post and Times Herald (1954-1959). Washington, D.C.: May 24,
1956. p. 59 (1 page)
...
Miami Beach Vignette: A Bronx lady ( the look-a-like of Molly Goldberg) was
wandering along the beach and came across an old lamp...She didn't know it was
 Aladdin's...She picked it up--rubbed off the sand and a huge Genii
appeared...The frightened woman started to weep..."Don't be afraid," comforted  Mr.
Genii, "I am your servant. I will get you anything you want. Just name your
slightest desire"..."Please," she said, "make me a malted"..."Okay," was the
retort, "you're a Malted!"
...
...
_An  Author Takes His Book on the Road; A Book On the Road _
(http://proquest.umi.com/pqdweb?index=0&did=128837912&SrchMode=1&sid=2&Fmt=12&VInst=PROD&VType=
PQD&RQT=309&VName=HNP&TS=1108789455&clientId=65882)
By E. Fuller Torrey The author, a Washington psychiatrist, toured  16 cities
to promote his book "Surviving Schizophrenia" (Harper & Row). Here  is his ac-
count of how he survived the tour:. The  Washington Post (1974-Current file).
Washington, D.C.: Apr 13, 1986. p.  BW1 (2 pages)
Pg. BWi, col. 1:
I WAS staring straight ahead at the Romper Room set, the big block
letters--J K L M N--on the wall. Any minute I expected to see Upoff round the  corner
("I'm sick. Could you call me an ambulance?") followed by Granny ("OK,  you're
an ambulance").


From dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM  Sat Feb 19 05:50:56 2005
From: dsgood at IPHOUSE.COM (Dan Goodman)
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 23:50:56 -0600
Subject: Chesapeake Bay dialects dying:   Washington Post.
Message-ID: <FRI.18.FEB.2005.235056.0600.>

Bay's Dialects Slowly Dying
As Watermen Leave and Washington Encroaches, Distinct Sounds Disappear

By David A. Fahrenthold
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, February 19, 2005; Page A01
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36333-2005Feb18.htm
(Registration required; but you can get to it via http://bugmenot.com)

  Linguists are careful to stress that there is not one single
Chesapeake Bay dialect but rather a vast array of different accents and
vocabularies.

There are distinctively southern speakers, like Tidewater Virginians who
say "kyar" when they mean "car." Further north are the residents of
"Bawlmer, Merlin," and along the Eastern Shore, in isolated waterman's
communities, people turn "wife" into "wuife."

But to the west of this cacophony, there is Washington -- a demographic
behemoth, breaker of dialects.

--
Dan Goodman
Journal http://www.livejournal.com/users/dsgood/
Decluttering: http://decluttering.blogspot.com
Predictions and Politics http://dsgood.blogspot.com
All political parties die at last of swallowing their own lies.
John Arbuthnot (1667-1735), Scottish writer, physician.


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Sat Feb 19 06:35:53 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 00:35:53 -0600
Subject: "history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes"
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.003553.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Discussion at:
http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_02_13-2005_02_19.shtml#1108756279


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Feb 19 13:53:18 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 05:53:18 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.055318.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I agree about Pesci (Newark, NJ) and Tomei (NYC).

Comic characters are hard to judge. Some of what seems to be their "accent" often comes from their exaggerated delivery.  Phonetically, though, these two are naturals.

Robert De Niro and Al Pacino are New Yorkers too. So was John Garfield. Their screen accents are entirely authentic.  Holly Hunter is from Conyers, GA, and is also "real" in most of her roles.  Will Geer (Frankfort, IN) was certainly passable (to me) as Grandpa Walton of WV.

JL
Tom Kysilko <pds at VISI.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Tom Kysilko

Subject: Re: Dialects in film
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 2/18/2005 09:56 PM -0600, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote:
>Another movie I have enjoyed is Shipping News with Kevin Spacey.. I don't
>know what dialect it is but its interesting. Can anyone tell me more about
>it????

Newfoundland. According to the DVD, the actor playing the cop/firefighter
in yellow rain gear at the scene of the accident, which was Spacey's first
reporting assignment, was a local. He also served as dialect
coach. Anyway, the rest of the cast who are supposed to be locals do sound
a lot like him. The producers and director speak with pride that the cast
"nailed the accent."

One of my favorite exaggerated MN accents can be found in the mouths of
nearly all the characters in "Drop Dead Gorgeous" (1999) Actually, I have
heard an accent that extreme in real life, but it was in central WI.

I'll let others judge the accuracy, but I sure have fun listening to the
Bronx or Brooklyn accents of Joe Pesci and Marisa Tomei in "My Cousin
Vinny" (1992).



Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services
pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA
http://www.visi.com/~pds

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM  Sat Feb 19 14:59:26 2005
From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:59:26 -0500
Subject: Chesapeake Bay dialects dying:   Washington Post
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.095926.0500.ABARAGONA@SPRYNET.COM>

If you have trouble getting the article online, here it is.  The print
version has a couple of nice charts that don't appear in the online version.

Recently, there were a couple of postings on the list about "among" as
"between."  This mentions a usage I've never heard of, "among-ye" for
"y'all."

Alan

----- Original Message -----

 Bay's Dialects Slowly Dying

 By David A. Fahrenthold

  Years ago, before the watermen had to become bus drivers and the crab
shanties were replaced by new red-brick houses, everybody on St. George
Island knew about the arster, the kitchen and the sun dog.

 The arster, of course, was a bivalve -- called an "oyster" by some
people -- often found here at the remote south end of St. Mary's County.
"The kitchen" was a spot in the Chesapeake Bay where arsters were caught.
And a "sun dog" was a haze that portended bad weather, a sign it was time to
leave the kitchen and head home.

 These words were part of the island's local dialect, one of many
distinctive ways of speaking that grew up over the centuries in isolated
areas across the bay.

 But now, like many of the other dialects, St. George-ese is fading. Many of
the watermen who spoke it have left, and in their place are newcomers from
the Washington suburbs and elsewhere.

 "They don't know about sun dogs anymore," said Jack Russell, a native of
the area. "Half of them don't even know that the sun rises in the east and
sets in the west."

 Experts say that the dialects, which encoded years of memories and
tradition in small communities, are eroding under pressure from expanding
suburbs and a declining dependence on the bay.

 Now, linguists are trying to record and preserve these ways of speech. They
fear that soon the bay will be overtaken by a suburb's interchangeable sense
of place -- and that the land and language here will be the same as anywhere
else.

 "The change in the dialect is so reflective of the demographic change,"
said Emma Trentman, who studied Calvert County's dialect as a Georgetown
University graduate student. "When you use the dialect, you're basically
using a piece of history."

 Linguists are careful to stress that there is not one single Chesapeake Bay
dialect but rather a vast array of accents and vocabularies.

 There are distinctively southern speakers, like Tidewater Virginians who
say "kyar" when they mean "car." Further north are the residents of
"Bawlmer, Merlin," and along the Eastern Shore, in isolated waterman's
communities, people turn "wife" into "wuife."

 But to the west of this cacophony, there is Washington -- a demographic
behemoth, breaker of dialects.

 Almost 50 percent of the region's residents were born in a state other than
the one where they live, which is more than other big cities and close to
twice the national average. Linguistically, that means "nobody really has
any idea what Washington, D.C., is," said David Bowie, a linguistics
professor at the University of Central Florida.

 Linguists say this kind of dialect confusion is spreading to Southern
Maryland, where tobacco fields and country stores have been giving way to
subdivisions and Starbucks. In Calvert County and in the Charles County town
of Waldorf, studies have found that southern pronunciations such as "tam"
for "time" are disappearing.

 Also declining is the lingo of tobacco farming, because many farmers have
taken a state buyout.

 Hagner R. Mister, a longtime Calvert tobacco farmer and former Maryland
secretary of agriculture, said the term "stripping room" -- a place where
tobacco leaves were taken off the stalk -- used to be common parlance.

 Now, the phrase gets him funny looks. "People would say, 'Did I
misunderstand you?' " Mister said. " 'Stripping room?' "

 Across the country, linguists say, big cities such as Baltimore and New
York safeguard dialects because native speakers are usually talking to one
another. But in an area quickly turning into suburbs, such as Southern
Maryland, every conversation with an outsider can exert a subtle pressure.

 "If you realize that everywhere you're likely to go, there's a different
norm, there's incentive . . . to change the way you talk a little bit," said
Bowie, who studied Waldorf.

 So far, there's been no comprehensive linguistic study of the bay's
dialects to see if they're all facing the same fate as Southern Maryland
speech. But changes have been noted by old-timers and local historians
across the area.

 Northern Neck native W. Tayloe Murphy Jr. -- the Virginia secretary of
natural resources -- said residents used to say they lived "in" the Northern
Neck. Now, he said, many say "on," as outsiders do.

 In Delaware, historian Russ McCabe said he's seen the decline of
"among-ye," which was that state's rare way of saying "y'all." One of the
few times he's heard it recently was at a church in Gumboro, in south
Delaware.

 "This older fella looked at me and [said], 'Are among-ye going to stay for
supper?' " said McCabe, who works for the state public archives. "I had a
moment there, a twinge of almost sadness, because I hadn't heard that in 20
years."

 St. George Island, a skinny strip of land two hours from the District,
provides a microcosm of the region's changes. It once supported a thriving
oyster industry, but then disease and pollution devastated the oyster crop.

 Watermen left to seek other jobs, and new people came after sewer lines
were extended there in 1990.

 "They're just smotherin' us," said Russell, a native who stayed behind.
"We're getting yuppi-tized."

 Russell said the new residents have no reason to know the names of nearby
oyster bars or the points of land that watermen used as landmarks. To the
new people, he said, water is water. It's scenery.

 The most prominent exception to these changes is Smith Island, Md., a
marshy place with about 360 residents, reachable only by ferry.

 Here, with a brogue that's been steeped in decades of isolation, Smith
Islanders render house as "hace" and brown as "brain." They use words that
are relics of the British English used by American colonists, such as
"progging" -- which means to poke around the marshes looking for arrowheads.

 University researchers were surprised recently to find that young Smith
Islanders actually have a stronger accent than their parents. The
researchers and islanders said they believe the change was a conscious
attempt to assert the island's culture in the face of declining catches and
rising water levels.

  "They act like they want to be heard with it," said Jennings Evans, 74, a
retired waterman and Smith Island's unofficial historian.

 But when the ferry takes him to Crisfield, Md., on the mainland, Evans said
he sees the way the rest of the bay is going.

 He said Crisfield's natives used to have a nasal, whiny way of talking --
which sounded funny, even to a man who pronounces "sound" as "saned." But
now, Evans said, he can hear it changing.

 "Their whinin', " he said, "is declinin'."



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From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sat Feb 19 16:05:20 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 11:05:20 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <4216A2CF.2050807@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.110520.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Dr. Strangelove comes to mind as having a great range of accents -- the
most curious of which was probably Sellers' as President  Whatsis.
A. Murie


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Sat Feb 19 16:52:55 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 10:52:55 -0600
Subject: "Coca-Cola"/"Coke"  (in Tanzania) = something easy, a given,
 no problem
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.105255.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

   The interesting item below is excerpted from an email I received recently from the daughter of one of my university colleagues (many thanks). The instances of three dots are all present in the original email. Also, just how the semantic development occurred is not entirely clear to me (somehow from the pause that refreshes?).

Gerald Cohen

When I was in Tanzania (TZ) I was speaking with my guide about all kinds of cultural points of interest, and this came up in conversation around a political race that was in progress at the time.  This particular candidate was a sure thing for winning the seat.  Everyone knew it and
called it, "Coke."  I was told that in TZ, when something is "easy," or "a-given...no-problem...of-course"...you get the picture...that often times it's referred to as "Coke-a-Cola."  It's become common thing, one which everyone understands and uses pretty freely.  This has gone on to
the extent that there is even a route up Kilimanjaro, the Marangu route, that has been dubbed the, "Coke," route.  (That should be taken with a big piece of rock salt though...this route is 3 days, and has less than a 50% success rate because the ascent is too fast for humans to
acclimatize to the lower O2 levels above 10,000-15,000 feet.  It's just the shortest route, and the route most commonly taken as a result.)

Cheers,
Kaki Trimble
Tanzania Safari Specialist

Thomson Safaris
Committed and Connected to Tanzania for 24 Years
14 Mount Auburn Street
Watertown, MA 02472
www.thomsonsafaris.com
1-800-235-0289 / 617-923-0426


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Sat Feb 19 17:03:37 2005
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 12:03:37 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.120337.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Mississippi Masala
yay!  * this would be good for a number of language reasons, but for your purpose here, portrayal of the white characters, all (or almost all) of whom are bit parts

beth

beth lee simon, ph.d.
associate professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
fort wayne, in 46805-1499
u.s.
voice (011) 260 481 6761; fax (011) 260 481 6985
email simon at ipfw.edu


>>> kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET 2/18/2005 9:22:07 PM >>>
Hi everyone.  We've discussed films in which language features
prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to compile is a list of
films in which the characters speak in dialects.  (for example,
"Fargo")  for my dialects class.  I'd like names of both films that
represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and those that don't,
since we're going to talk about dialects in the media at some point.  I
can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can think of more.  And I'm
thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than films like "American
Tongues."

Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by me and by my
students, who are enjoying the course a lot!

Thanks!

Patti Kurtz
Minot State University
--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Sat Feb 19 17:04:14 2005
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 12:04:14 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.120414.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

hi patti,

when you get all the responses, would you post a list to the list
please

beth

>>> kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET 2/18/2005 9:22:07 PM >>>
Hi everyone.  We've discussed films in which language features
prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to compile is a list of
films in which the characters speak in dialects.  (for example,
"Fargo")  for my dialects class.  I'd like names of both films that
represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and those that don't,
since we're going to talk about dialects in the media at some point.
I
can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can think of more.  And
I'm
thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than films like "American
Tongues."

Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by me and by my
students, who are enjoying the course a lot!

Thanks!

Patti Kurtz
Minot State University
--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


From daisydancer99 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Feb 19 17:57:33 2005
From: daisydancer99 at YAHOO.COM (daisy dancer)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:57:33 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.095733.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not sure where he is supposed to be from, but Dustin Hoffman [and the Judge for that matter] have Southern accents in Runaway Jury which shouldn't be the case if they are from New Orleans.  I know the book was originally set in Biloxi, MS, so maybe that started the confusion but I have yet to find a film that accurately depicts the New Orleans working class or Yat dialect.  Any thoughts?

Janis Vizier Nihart <tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart
Subject: Re: Dialects in film
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The movie Southern Comfort has a Cajun villain with an embarrassing Cajun
accent. I don't know where the dialect is from but it is not Cajun.
Dennis Quaid in The Big Easy does an OK job with his part New Orleans/part
Cajun dialect.
I have seen many movies but can't name any offhand that have New Orleanians
speaking with a southern drawl, which they don't (unless they are from
somelwhere else)

Another movie I have enjoyed is Shipping News with Kevin Spacey.. I don't
know what dialect it is but its interesting. Can anyone tell me more about
it????
JN


> Hi everyone. We've discussed films in which language features
> prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to compile is a list of
> films in which the characters speak in dialects. (for example,
> "Fargo") for my dialects class. I'd like names of both films that
> represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and those that don't,
> since we're going to talk about dialects in the media at some point. I
> can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can think of more. And I'm
> thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than films like "American
> Tongues."
>
> Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by me and by my
> students, who are enjoying the course a lot!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Patti Kurtz
> Minot State University
> --
>
> Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?
>
>
>
> Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.
>
>
>
> Freeman - It's called dedication.
>
>
>
> Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>


It's a luscious mix of words and tricks
That let us bet when you know we should fold -- The Shins
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Feb 19 18:32:43 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:32:43 -0500
Subject: "Call me a cab/taxi" (1901)
In-Reply-To: <E1D2MJi-00018Q-00@mx10.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.133243.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Isn't the protagonist in this class of joke referred to as a "hipster"?
Or is this a dialect split between blacks and whites? Here are a couple
from the '50's.

Hipster standing at the bus stop.
Square walks up, asks the hipster,
"Crosstown bus pass this way?"
Hipster answers, "Doo-dah. Doo-dah.

Hipster watches a square do push-ups.
Finally, he taps the square on his shoulder and says,
"You might as well stop now, man.
"Your girl, she been done gone."

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 18, 2005, at 11:34 PM, James C Stalker wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       James C Stalker <stalker at MSU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: =?utf-8?Q?=22Call?= me a =?utf-8?Q?cab/taxi=22?=
> (1901)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> How about the ancient joke (c. 1970).  A hippy (with all the
> implications,
> esp. high), comes upon an accident.  The victim of the accident says:
> "call
> me an amulance."  The hippy says, "Ok, man.  You're an ambulance."
>
> These live on.  Any new ones?
>
> Jim
>
> Laurence Horn writes:
>
>> At 10:38 PM -0500 2/18/05, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>>> This probably comes from a humor magazine such as Life, Puck, Judge,
>>> or
>>> Texas Siftings. Here it is in the mouth of a famous American.
>>> ...
>>> ...
>>> ...
>>> ...
>>> (GOOGLE)
>>> _The  Coffee Place's Joke Stack_ (http://www.thecoffeepla
>>> ce.com/Jokes/aaaaabjk.html)
>>> The Coffee Place's Joke  Stack. "Call me a taxi," said the fat man.
>>> "Okay,"
>>> said
>>> the doorman. "You're a taxi, but you look  more like a truck to me."
>>> ...
>>> ...
>>> www.thecoffeeplace.com/Jokes/aaaaabjk.html - 2k - _Cached_
>>
>> How about the local variant--
>>
>> Make me a malted.
>> Pffft--you're a malted.
>>
>> larry
>>
>>
>> --
>> This message has been sanitized - it may have been altered to improve
>> security, as described below.
>>
>> Sanitizer (start="1108785300"):
>>  ParseHeader ():
>>    Ignored junk while parsing header:
>>
>>  SanitizeFile (filename="unnamed.txt", mimetype="text/plain"):
>>    Match (names="unnamed.txt", rule="2"):
>>      Enforced policy: accept
>>
>>
>> See http://help.msu.edu/mail/sanitizer.html for more information.
>
>
>
> James C. Stalker
> Department of English
> Michigan State University
>


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Sat Feb 19 18:09:03 2005
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 13:09:03 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <4216A2CF.2050807@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.130903.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about the Billy Bob Thornton movie "Sling Blade"?  It's set in
Arkansas, I believe, and Thornton's from there.

At 08:22 PM 2/18/2005 -0600, you wrote:
>Hi everyone.  We've discussed films in which language features
>prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to compile is a list of
>films in which the characters speak in dialects.  (for example,
>"Fargo")  for my dialects class.  I'd like names of both films that
>represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and those that don't,
>since we're going to talk about dialects in the media at some point.  I
>can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can think of more.  And I'm
>thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than films like "American
>Tongues."
>
>Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by me and by my
>students, who are enjoying the course a lot!
>
>Thanks!
>
>Patti Kurtz
>Minot State University
>--
>
>Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?
>
>
>
>Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.
>
>
>
>Freeman - It's called dedication.
>
>
>
>Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Sat Feb 19 19:08:03 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 14:08:03 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.140803.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone mentioned Frank Sinatra from Hoboken, NJ?  Did he use his
native dialect in some of his gangster roles?

David

barnhart at highlands.com



American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Saturday, February
19, 2005 at 8:53 AM  wrote:


>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Dialects in film
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I agree about Pesci (Newark, NJ) and Tomei (NYC).
>
>Comic characters are hard to judge. Some of what seems to be their
>"accent" often comes from their exaggerated delivery.  Phonetically,
>though, these two are naturals.
>
>Robert De Niro and Al Pacino are New Yorkers too. So was John Garfield.
>Their screen accents are entirely authentic.  Holly Hunter is from
>Conyers, GA, and is also "real" in most of her roles.  Will Geer
>(Frankfort, IN) was certainly passable (to me) as Grandpa Walton of WV.
>
>JL
>Tom Kysilko <pds at VISI.COM> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Tom Kysilko
>
>Subject: Re: Dialects in film
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>At 2/18/2005 09:56 PM -0600, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote:
>>Another movie I have enjoyed is Shipping News with Kevin Spacey.. I don't
>>know what dialect it is but its interesting. Can anyone tell me more
>about
>>it????
>
>Newfoundland. According to the DVD, the actor playing the cop/firefighter
>in yellow rain gear at the scene of the accident, which was Spacey's first
>reporting assignment, was a local. He also served as dialect
>coach. Anyway, the rest of the cast who are supposed to be locals do sound
>a lot like him. The producers and director speak with pride that the cast
>"nailed the accent."
>
>One of my favorite exaggerated MN accents can be found in the mouths of
>nearly all the characters in "Drop Dead Gorgeous" (1999) Actually, I have
>heard an accent that extreme in real life, but it was in central WI.
>
>I'll let others judge the accuracy, but I sure have fun listening to the
>Bronx or Brooklyn accents of Joe Pesci and Marisa Tomei in "My Cousin
>Vinny" (1992).
>
>
>
>Tom Kysilko Practical Data Services
>pds at visi.com Saint Paul MN USA
>http://www.visi.com/~pds
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sat Feb 19 20:45:08 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 15:45:08 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.154508.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers could,
would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that "y'all"
*is* used as a singular.

In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
and Fort Worth.

I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan area
in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows that
East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
English.

So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
white.

-Wilson Gray


From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM  Sun Feb 20 00:10:29 2005
From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:10:29 -0600
Subject: "Y'all" redux
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.181029.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

As a white  South Louisianian, I have never heard "Y'all" as a singular
pronoun, but the use of "y'all's" and "y'all" as a possessive pronoun is
used.(I passed by y'all's/ y'all house yesterday, but y'all weren't home.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:45 PM
Subject: "Y'all" redux


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> Subject:      "Y'all" redux
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers could,
> would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
> posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
> Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
> agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
> his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
> use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that "y'all"
> *is* used as a singular.
>
> In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
> that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
> and Fort Worth.
>
> I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
> farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
> description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan area
> in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows that
> East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
> English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
> English.
>
> So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
> depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
> white.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Sun Feb 20 01:15:28 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 19:15:28 -0600
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.191528.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I already ragged DeNiro for his bad southern accent in the Cape Fear remake.  I just saw a bit of Al Pacino in "People I Know"; again, a bad southern accent from a New Yorker.  

On the other hand, Robin Wright Penn nailed a southern accent in "Toys".

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Jonathan Lighter
Sent: Sat 2/19/2005 7:53 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject:      Re: Dialects in film

Robert De Niro and Al Pacino are New Yorkers too.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 03:36:43 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 22:36:43 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Geologist"
In-Reply-To: <200502190635.j1J6Zt3K032080@pantheon-po06.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.223643.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

geologist (OED 1795)

1792 Albanis Beaumont _Travels Through the Rhaetian Alps_ 8 (Eighteenth
Century Collections Online)  The geologist will do well to examine the
coast.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 03:32:25 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 22:32:25 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Sexuality"
In-Reply-To: <200502190635.j1J6Zt3K032080@pantheon-po06.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.223225.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

sexuality (OED a1800)

1797 John Walker _Elements of Geography_ (ed. 3) (Eighteenth Century
Collections Online)  The Linnaean system ... is founded on the sexuality
of plants.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 03:29:03 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 22:29:03 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Nymphomania"
In-Reply-To: <200502190635.j1J6Zt3K032080@pantheon-po06.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.222903.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

nymphomania (OED3 1775)

1702 Steven Blankaart _The Physical Dictionary_ 218 (Eighteenth Century
Collections Online)  _Nymphomania_, the same that _Furor Uterimes_.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Sun Feb 20 00:59:11 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 18:59:11 -0600
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <200502191614.6af4217ac4838b@rly-na06.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.185911.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Will do-- I'll give it a week or so to make sure everyone gets a chance
to contribute.

Patti

simon at IPFW.EDU wrote:

>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Beth Simon <simon at IPFW.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: Dialects in film
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>hi patti,
>
>when you get all the responses, would you post a list to the list
>please
>
>beth
>
>
>
>>>>kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET 2/18/2005 9:22:07 PM >>>
>>>>
>>>>
>Hi everyone.  We've discussed films in which language features
>prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to compile is a list of
>films in which the characters speak in dialects.  (for example,
>"Fargo")  for my dialects class.  I'd like names of both films that
>represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and those that don't,
>since we're going to talk about dialects in the media at some point.
>I
>can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can think of more.  And
>I'm
>thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than films like "American
>Tongues."
>
>Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by me and by my
>students, who are enjoying the course a lot!
>
>Thanks!
>
>Patti Kurtz
>Minot State University
>--
>
>Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?
>
>
>
>Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.
>
>
>
>Freeman - It's called dedication.
>
>
>
>Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.
>
>

--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 01:13:04 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 17:13:04 -0800
Subject: "infamous" = famous
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.171304.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Becoming endemic but not in OED, "infamous" as "well-known; famous" :

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/tm_objectid=15204502&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=futuristic-makeover-for-bugs-bunny-and-co-name_page.html

"Carrot-chomping Bugs Bunny is joined by animated favourites Daffy Duck, Wile E Coyote, the Tasmanian Devil, Road Runner and Lola Bunny.

"However, hardcore fans are in for a shock - the trademark characteristics will be gone, as will their infamous names.

"Bugs is set to be renamed Buzz Bunny, while Daffy Duck will sport a built-in sonar."

"Futuristic makeover for Bugs Bunny and Co," icWales, the national website of Wales,(
Feb. 18, 2005.

(The story reported is itself worthy of infamy  - in the old sense.)

JL















__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb 20 10:23:27 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 05:23:27 EST
Subject: More "Hawkins" (umpteenth ADS-L try)
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.052327.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ADS-L is broken. Here's a re-post of something I tried to send half a day
ago.
Barry Popik
(Leaving town for a week. Just what I want on vacation--piles and piles of
formerly un-sent ADS-L e-mails.)
...

...
(GOOGLE)
NYPL, The New Yorker Records
Killed 1951 A REPORTER  AT LARGE 14 "Nobody Home." Run 3/21/46 15 "Making
Buckle
and Tongue Meet."  Run 8/24/46 16 "Hawkins is Inside." Run 11/30/46 17 "Not a
...
www.nypl.org/research/chss/ spe/rbk/faids/NYhtml/nybox602.htm - 96k -
Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

1407     ROUECHE, Berton
ANNALS OF MEDICINE
1             "The Case of the Eleven Blue Men." Run 6/5/48
2     "The Fog."  Run 9/30/50
3            "A Pinch of Dust."  Run  6/23/51
4            "Birds of a  Feather."  Run 4/18/53
5           "Lost."  Run 6/19/54
6         "One of the Lucky Ones."  Run 2/26/55
7            "Ten Feet Tall."  Run  9/10/55
8            "The  Incurable Wound."  Run 4/6/57
9         "Labyrinthitis."  Run 4/5/58
PROFILES
10           Frank E. Denison.  Run 1/15/49
11     Everett Joshua Edwards.  Run 9/24/49
12            Louis Haft.  Run  5/23/53
13            William  Fanning Halsey.  Killed 1951
A  REPORTER AT LARGE
14             "Nobody Home."  Run 3/21/46
15     "Making Buckle and Tongue Meet." Run  8/24/46
16            "Hawkins is  Inside."  Run 11/30/46


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

Subj:   "Hawkins" in Tamony papers; Big Apple Club (1934)
Date:     2/19/2005 7:40:36 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:    Bapopik
To:    ADS-L at listserv.uga.edu



OT  MISC.

TRAVEL: I will be in the Dominican Republic from February 20-27  with my
sister. She goes there for treatments for her autistic son. Normally,  I'd wish
that my plane would crash, but my sister is actually worth more alive  than dead.

BIG APPLE-WORLD'S SECOND HOME: I wrote another letter to the  New Orleans
Times-Picayune about the Big Apple's origin there, and I asked them  to honor the
black stablehands (during Black History Month). I guess it wasn't  good
enough to be published (again)...I wrote a letter to the New York Times  about the
"World's Second Home." I said that "Big Apple" originally meant the  pinnacle
is sports. That wasn't published, either, although I received an e-mail  from
Ellis Hennican ("Why Apple?" his story went) that I should send it to
Newsday...I inexplicably got thousands of hits on my web site yesterday for  "World's
Most Famous Arena." The entry is so old that it has "Welcome  Republicans!"
on it, from July  2004.

--------------------------------------------------------------
BIG  APPLE CLUB

7 July 1934, New York Amsterdam News, pg. 9, col. 1:
"This  Hectic Harlem" by Roi Ottley
(...)
The Big Apple has arrived and is worth  your time.


This is the earliest I have for the Big Apple Club (135th  Street and 7th
Avenue/Adam Clayton Powell Junior Boulevard).

I had read  the Amsterdam News for this period about fifteen years ago, but I
went through  the newspaper again briefly today. Roi Ottley called Harlem the
"Coal Bin" (not  in HDAS?). He also used terms like "Cornflakes Boulevard"
(not in HDAS?). I'm  looking for "Hawkins" somewhere in  1934.

--------------------------------------------------------------
HAWKINS  IN TAMONY PAPERS

Gerald Cohen helped to pay for this (I thought he would  get a discount?) and
it arrived today. Here goes:


Here are the  photocpies of the term "Hawkins" found in the Peter Tamony
Collection (C3939). I  did not photocopy any of the "Hawk" clipping because the
majority of those  referred to either the bird, military equipment, or to the
Vietnam War with the  term "hawks and doves". The charge for photocopying was
credited to Gerald  Cohen's account.

Mary Beth Brown
Manuscript Specialist
Western  Historical Manuscript Collection
BroMary at umsystem.edu


CARD ONE:
JIVE TALK (Regular column).
MISTER HAWKINS--The wind,  wintertime, cold weather, ice, snow.
RHYTHM AND BLUES (Onyx Publishing Co.,  Derby, Conn.).
December 1954: Vol. 1, No. 15, p. 20/1.


CARD  TWO:
Down the Spillway. John O'Ren
Baltimore Sun, Dec. 21, p. 14 and Dec.  27, p. 8, 1934;
Jan. 5, p. 10, Jan. 8, p. 10, Jan. 9, p. 10 and Jan. 12, pg.  10, 1935.

A series of comments and letters regarding the use in Maryland  and Virginia
of the expression _Hawkins is outside_ or _Hawkins is coming_,  meaning the
chill weather is coming.

American Speech, Bibliographical  Department, October, 1935, X, 3, 224/1.


CARD  THREE:
HAWKINS.
HAWKINS...Cold weather.
Jive and Slang of Students in  Negro Colleges.
Marcus H. Boulware, Hampton Institute, Virginia, January,  1947.


CARD FOUR:
HAWKINS.
"Hawkins is inside  tonight."
Compare--SNOW BLIND.


CARD  FIVE:
"HAWKINS IS INSIDE TONIGHT."
This expression is used by night club  musicians to indicate that things are
not going well, and got its start, so it  is said, with a drummer called
Hawkins. Hawkins was such a bad performer that  his fellow bandsmen took to
explaining away all their misfortunes by saying  "Hawkins is inside tonight."

What is the truth of this story.  B.  T.
May 30, 1947
AMERICAN NOTES AND QUERIES, April, 1947, VII, No. 1, p.  10/1.


LETTER

American Notes & Queries,
7 West  44th Street,
New York City 18, New York.

Gentlemen:

Relative to  HAWKINS IS INSIDE TONIGHT (VII, no. 1, p. 10/1):

THe following, from the  BIBLIOGRAPHY OF AMERICAN SPEECH, X, No. 3, p. 224/1,
October, 1935, may offer  come clue to the background of the above phrase:

Down the Spillway. John  O'Ren. (Apparently a column.)

Baltimore _Sun_, Dec. 21, p. 14 and Dec.  27, p. 8, 1934; Jan. 5, p. 10, Jan.
8, p. 10, Jan. 9, p. 10, and Jan. 12, P. 10,  1935.

A series of comments and letters regarding the use in Maryland and  Virginia
of the expression _Hawkins is outside_ or _Hawkins is coming_ meaning  the
chill weather is coming.


Chilly weather being the antithesis of a  "hot time," and extension of this
phrase would not be a great mental  effort.

The uninviting coldness and chill of an empty room is the source  of an
analagous expression among owners and employees of restaurants and night  clubs.
This is "snow-blindness," which such people are said to get from gazing
morosely at white-capped tables uninhabitated by hilarous, paying  guests.

Very truly yours

ANSWERS, Volume VII, page 26/1. Above  printed.


(JSTOR)
Brief Notices
American Speech > Vol. 10,  No. 3 (Oct., 1935), pp. 222-231
Pg. 224:
O'Ren, John. Down the Spillway.  Baltimore _Sun_, Dec. 21, p. 14 and Dec. 27,
p. 8, 1934; Jan. 5, p. 10, Jan. 8,  p. 10, Jan. 9, p. 10, and Jan. 12, p. 10,
1935)
A series of comments and  letters regarding the use in Maryland and Virginia
of the expression _Hawkins is  outside_ or _Hawkins is coming_, meaning that
chill weather is  coming.


(THOUGHTS: The Tamony papers really didn't provide us with  anything we don't
already have from our own AMERICAN SPEECH. I'll check out the  Baltimore Sun
articles and type them up here when I return. It'll make a nice  COMMENTS ON
ETYMOLOGY article...So it appears that "Windy City" comes from  Cincinnati and
"the Hawk" comes from Virginia! I might hop a Greyhound down  there and check
it out...I'll check the digitized AFRO-AMERICAN (Baltimore)  again. The
Baltimore Sun will be digitized by ProQuest some time in the next  five
years...Finally, this will all make the Chicago Tribune in about 2013, and  I will get no
credit, and I will be plagiarized by the Chicago Historical  Society and the
University of Chicago Press--ed.)


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sun Feb 20 10:55:13 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 05:55:13 EST
Subject: More coinages from Google News
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.055513.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

These are 100% accurate! It's Google News!
OT: My ADS-L post went through! Hosannah!!!!
...
...

_Southwest's arrival offers cheap  getaways_ 
(http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/pmupdate/s_305224.html) 
Pittsburgh  Tribune-Review, PA -  <NOBR>Feb 18,  
... is the second-oldest  ballpark in the country. Fun fact: Chicago coined 
the term  "jazz" in 1914. When to book a flight: Check out ...  
...
_Gays must change attitudes that lead to dangerous  liaisons_ 
(http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ideas_opinions/story/281632p-241337c.html) 
New York Daily  News, NY -  <NOBR>Feb 1
... Back in the 1960's, William Ryan of Boston College  coined the phrase 
"blaming the victim." It gave voice to a needed  concept, but it also silenced 
critics who ... 
...
_Why Baseball Should Let the Players Cheat_ 
(http://www.sports-central.org/sports/2005/02/17/why_baseball_should_let_the_players_cheat.php) 
Sports Central, VA -  <NOBR>Feb 17,
Former Arizona Cardinals head coach and  current Redskins coordinator Joe 
Bugle once coined  the phrase, "if you're not cheating, you're not trying." If  
that's ... 
...

_Two Big Bang Theory inspired Hawking on black  holes?_ 
(http://internationalreporter.com/news/read.php?id=497) 
International  Reporter, India -  <NOBR>Feb 16,  
... infinitely dense. "In 1967,  John Wheeler coined the term of "Black Hole" 
analyzing how a  star collapses to a singularity. Just after ... 
...
_'Ham and Eggs' Pension Plan Promised $30 a Week in  '30s_ 
(http://www.latimes.com/news/local/state/la-me-then13feb13,1,64488.story?coll=la-news-state) 
Los Angeles  Times, CA -  <NOBR>Feb 1
... The Allens hired broadcaster and orator Sherman  Bainbridge as a 
promoter. Some say it was Bainbridge who coined  the "Ham and Eggs" slogan. ... 
...
_Tom Penders, coaching Cougars with heart of a  champion_ 
(http://www.khou.com/sports/spotlight/stories/khou050217_gj_tompenders.ba25f96d.html) 
KHOU  (subscription), TX -  <NOBR>Feb 17,  
By Matt Musil / 11 Sports. It was Rudy  T. who coined the phrase, 'never 
underestimate the heart of  a champion.' The same could be said about Tom Penders. 
...  
...
_Blogs muddy line between work and personal  thought_ 
(http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/021305dnbusblogs.b7655.html) 
Dallas Morning  News (subscription), TX -  <NOBR>Feb 12,  
... Blog-related terminations  have apparently occurred enough that there is 
even a word for it ? getting  "dooced." Blogger Heather Armstrong coined the 
phrase in  ... 


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Feb 20 01:22:35 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 20:22:35 -0500
Subject: [Bapopik@aol.com: Hawkins]
Message-ID: <SAT.19.FEB.2005.202235.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From Barry.


----- Forwarded message from Bapopik at aol.com -----

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Subj:    "Hawkins" in Tamony papers; Big Apple Club (1934)
  Date:    2/19/2005 7:40:36 PM Eastern Standard Time
  From:    Bapopik
  To:    ADS-L at listserv.uga.edu



OT MISC.

TRAVEL: I will be in the Dominican Republic from February 20-27 with my sister. She goes there for treatments for her autistic son. Normally, I'd wish that my plane would crash, but my sister is actually worth more alive than dead.

BIG APPLE-WORLD'S SECOND HOME: I wrote another letter to the New Orleans Times-Picayune about the Big Apple's origin there, and I asked them to honor the black stablehands (during Black History Month). I guess it wasn't good enough to be published (again)...I wrote a letter to the New York Times about the "World's Second Home." I said that "Big Apple" originally meant the pinnacle is sports. That wasn't published, either, although I received an e-mail from Ellis Hennican ("Why Apple?" his story went) that I should send it to Newsday...I inexplicably got thousands of hits on my web site yesterday for "World's Most Famous Arena." The entry is so old that it has "Welcome Republicans!" on it, from July 2004.

--------------------------------------------------------------
BIG APPLE CLUB

7 July 1934, New York Amsterdam News, pg. 9, col. 1:
"This Hectic Harlem" by Roi Ottley
(...)
The Big Apple has arrived and is worth your time.


This is the earliest I have for the Big Apple Club (135th Street and 7th Avenue/Adam Clayton Powell Junior Boulevard).

I had read the Amsterdam News for this period about fifteen years ago, but I went through the newspaper again briefly today. Roi Ottley called Harlem the "Coal Bin" (not in HDAS?). He also used terms like "Cornflakes Boulevard" (not in HDAS?). I'm looking for "Hawkins" somewhere in 1934.

--------------------------------------------------------------
HAWKINS IN TAMONY PAPERS

Gerald Cohen helped to pay for this (I thought he would get a discount?) and it arrived today. Here goes:


Here are the photocpies of the term "Hawkins" found in the Peter Tamony Collection (C3939). I did not photocopy any of the "Hawk" clipping because the majority of those referred to either the bird, military equipment, or to the Vietnam War with the term "hawks and doves". The charge for photocopying was credited to Gerald Cohen's account.

Mary Beth Brown
Manuscript Specialist
Western Historical Manuscript Collection
BroMary at umsystem.edu


CARD ONE:
JIVE TALK (Regular column).
MISTER HAWKINS--The wind, wintertime, cold weather, ice, snow.
RHYTHM AND BLUES (Onyx Publishing Co., Derby, Conn.).
December 1954: Vol. 1, No. 15, p. 20/1.


CARD TWO:
Down the Spillway. John O'Ren
Baltimore Sun, Dec. 21, p. 14 and Dec. 27, p. 8, 1934;
Jan. 5, p. 10, Jan. 8, p. 10, Jan. 9, p. 10 and Jan. 12, pg. 10, 1935.

A series of comments and letters regarding the use in Maryland and Virginia of the expression _Hawkins is outside_ or _Hawkins is coming_, meaning the chill weather is coming.

American Speech, Bibliographical Department, October, 1935, X, 3, 224/1.


CARD THREE:
HAWKINS.
HAWKINS...Cold weather.
Jive and Slang of Students in Negro Colleges.
Marcus H. Boulware, Hampton Institute, Virginia, January, 1947.


CARD FOUR:
HAWKINS.
"Hawkins is inside tonight."
Compare--SNOW BLIND.


CARD FIVE:
"HAWKINS IS INSIDE TONIGHT."
This expression is used by night club musicians to indicate that things are not going well, and got its start, so it is said, with a drummer called Hawkins. Hawkins was such a bad performer that his fellow bandsmen took to explaining away all their misfortunes by saying "Hawkins is inside tonight."

What is the truth of this story.  B. T.
May 30, 1947
AMERICAN NOTES AND QUERIES, April, 1947, VII, No. 1, p. 10/1.


LETTER

American Notes & Queries,
7 West 44th Street,
New York City 18, New York.

Gentlemen:

Relative to HAWKINS IS INSIDE TONIGHT (VII, no. 1, p. 10/1):

THe following, from the BIBLIOGRAPHY OF AMERICAN SPEECH, X, No. 3, p. 224/1, October, 1935, may offer come clue to the background of the above phrase:

Down the Spillway. John O'Ren. (Apparently a column.)

Baltimore _Sun_, Dec. 21, p. 14 and Dec. 27, p. 8, 1934; Jan. 5, p. 10, Jan. 8, p. 10, Jan. 9, p. 10, and Jan. 12, P. 10, 1935.

A series of comments and letters regarding the use in Maryland and Virginia of the expression _Hawkins is outside_ or _Hawkins is coming_ meaning the chill weather is coming.


Chilly weather being the antithesis of a "hot time," and extension of this phrase would not be a great mental effort.

The uninviting coldness and chill of an empty room is the source of an analagous expression among owners and employees of restaurants and night clubs. This is "snow-blindness," which such people are said to get from gazing morosely at white-capped tables uninhabitated by hilarous, paying guests.

Very truly yours

ANSWERS, Volume VII, page 26/1. Above printed.


(JSTOR)
Brief Notices
American Speech > Vol. 10, No. 3 (Oct., 1935), pp. 222-231
Pg. 224:
O'Ren, John. Down the Spillway. Baltimore _Sun_, Dec. 21, p. 14 and Dec. 27, p. 8, 1934; Jan. 5, p. 10, Jan. 8, p. 10, Jan. 9, p. 10, and Jan. 12, p. 10, 1935)
A series of comments and letters regarding the use in Maryland and Virginia of the expression _Hawkins is outside_ or _Hawkins is coming_, meaning that chill weather is coming.


(THOUGHTS: The Tamony papers really didn't provide us with anything we don't already have from our own AMERICAN SPEECH. I'll check out the Baltimore Sun articles and type them up here when I return. It'll make a nice COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY article...So it appears that "Windy City" comes from Cincinnati and "the Hawk" comes from Virginia! I might hop a Greyhound down there and check it out...I'll check the digitized AFRO-AMERICAN (Baltimore) again. The Baltimore Sun will be digitized by ProQuest some time in the next five years...Finally, this will all make the Chicago Tribune in about 2013, and I will get no credit, and I will be plagiarized by the Chicago Historical Society and the University of Chicago Press--ed.)

----- End forwarded message -----


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 12:52:17 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 07:52:17 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Professional"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502192235140.1024-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.075217.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

professional (OED, modern sense, 1747-8)

1715 Parker, Samuel. An essay upon the duty of physicians and patients,
the dignity of medicine, and the prudentials of practice. 51 (Eighteenth
Century Collections Online)  There is such a thing as I'll venture to call
a _Professional Priesthood_.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 12:57:15 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 07:57:15 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Working Class"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502192235140.1024-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.075715.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

working class (OED 1789)

1757 Postlethwayt, Malachy. Britain's commercial interest explained and
improved. 26 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  If the produce
cannot be encreased one half, nor, perhaps, hardly one fourth, would not
absolute necessity oblige the working class to give their labour as cheap
as possible, that they may supply their wants as far as they can.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 13:24:30 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 08:24:30 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Colloquial"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502192235140.1024-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.082430.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

colloquial (OED 1751)

1723 Henry Rowlands _Mona Antiqua Restaurata_ 235 (Eighteenth Century
Collections Online)  Great Numbers of Youths resorted to be train'd up in
the _Druidish_ Learning, continuing their Colloquial Studies sometimes
Twenty Years together in that Place.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM  Sun Feb 20 13:35:56 2005
From: tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM (Janis Vizier Nihart)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 07:35:56 -0600
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.073556.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have heard a lot of different dialects from Nicole Kidman in movies.  Since I am not an expert on the dialects she has used, I don't know if she is doing a good job.
Annie Potts in Ghostbusters uses a New York dialect--I'm not an expert there either. I think she's a southerner.


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 13:52:29 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 08:52:29 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Bibliography"
In-Reply-To: <200403010207.i2127Cv06793@pantheon-po01.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.085229.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

bibliography (OED, modern sense, 1814)

1756 Abel Boyer _Dictionnaire royal, francois-anglois et anglois-francois_
71 (Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  BIBLIOGRAPHIE ...
_Bibliography_, the knowledge of the ancient way of writings, and
_manuscripts_.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 14:49:08 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 09:49:08 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Publicity"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502200849550.15869-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.094908.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

publicity (OED 1791)

1767 James Mumford _The Question of Questions_ 344 (Eighteenth Century
Collections Online)  We are secur'd that they have done their duty, both
by the notorious publicity of the fact, and by their subscriptions to the
legal carriage of all that assentially concerns the being of a true
council.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 14:57:23 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 09:57:23 -0500
Subject: Further Antedating of "Publicity"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502200849550.15869-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.095723.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

publicity (OED 1791)

1742 John Tillotson _Sermons on Several Subjects and Occasions_ IV. 722
(Eighteeenth Century Collections Online)  Thirdly, he says, "this cabala
was a doctrine delivered to few, and that with strict charge to keep it
from publicity, and so communicate it again successively to a select
committee of a few.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Sun Feb 20 16:00:22 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 08:00:22 -0800
Subject: the cleverness of headline writers
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.080022.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

science reporting tends to get treated as a kind of feature writing, so
that science stories often  have cute or clever heads or lead-ins,
involving idioms, famous quotations, puns, alliteration, etc.  check
out the brief news items in Science, Scientific American, and the NYT
Science Times.  sometimes, though, the writers reach too far.

case in point: headline on the front page of the Oakland (CA) Tribune,
2/19/05, on a story about the detection of "a massive burst of energy
exploded from a far-off neutron star in December".  no problem there.
but the headline is:
    Science makes light
    of star's collapse
now the story's all about the wild enthusiasm of scientists about this
event.  no making light of it at all.

it's a mistake to pun on an expression that means the opposite of what
you want to say.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu), amidst the rain and linguistics in
berkeley


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 16:10:41 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:10:41 -0500
Subject: "infamous" = famous
In-Reply-To: <20050220011304.27634.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.111041.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:13 PM -0800 2/19/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Becoming endemic but not in OED, "infamous" as "well-known; famous" :

I've noticed this amelioration for awhile, but I don't think it's as
simple as Jon's equivalence above, or at least not yet--it's more
like "famous in a pop-cultural domain" or "famous (only) for being
famous".  Or at least that's the way I've often seen it.  So it can
be the "infamous Paris Hilton" or (slightly less likely) "the
infamous Brad Pitt" but much less likely "the infamous Mahatma
Gandhi", no matter how famous and well-known he was.  Let's google
them...

"infamous Brad Pitt"  116
"infamous Mahatma Gandhi" 0

Of course, context is a problem--"infamous Paris Hilton" picks up
5690, but mostly of the form "the infamous Paris Hilton sex tapes" or
the like.  Still, I think the distinction is real:  "infamous" is
still a hyponym of "famous", rather than a synonym, although its
territory has expanded.

larry

>
>http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/tm_objectid=15204502&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=futuristic-makeover-for-bugs-bunny-and-co-name_page.html
>
>"Carrot-chomping Bugs Bunny is joined by animated favourites Daffy
>Duck, Wile E Coyote, the Tasmanian Devil, Road Runner and Lola Bunny.
>
>"However, hardcore fans are in for a shock - the trademark
>characteristics will be gone, as will their infamous names.
>
>"Bugs is set to be renamed Buzz Bunny, while Daffy Duck will sport a
>built-in sonar."
>
>"Futuristic makeover for Bugs Bunny and Co," icWales, the national
>website of Wales,(
>Feb. 18, 2005.
>
>(The story reported is itself worthy of infamy  - in the old sense.)
>
>JL


From preston at MSU.EDU  Sun Feb 20 17:43:44 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:43:44 -0500
Subject: "infamous" = famous
In-Reply-To: <p04320404be3e64ca8bcb@[130.132.231.189]>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.124344.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

larry,

Is "notorious" also a hyponym of "famous", or does it reach up to
synonym status?

dInIs



>At 5:13 PM -0800 2/19/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>Becoming endemic but not in OED, "infamous" as "well-known; famous" :
>
>I've noticed this amelioration for awhile, but I don't think it's as
>simple as Jon's equivalence above, or at least not yet--it's more
>like "famous in a pop-cultural domain" or "famous (only) for being
>famous".  Or at least that's the way I've often seen it.  So it can
>be the "infamous Paris Hilton" or (slightly less likely) "the
>infamous Brad Pitt" but much less likely "the infamous Mahatma
>Gandhi", no matter how famous and well-known he was.  Let's google
>them...
>
>"infamous Brad Pitt"  116
>"infamous Mahatma Gandhi" 0
>
>Of course, context is a problem--"infamous Paris Hilton" picks up
>5690, but mostly of the form "the infamous Paris Hilton sex tapes" or
>the like.  Still, I think the distinction is real:  "infamous" is
>still a hyponym of "famous", rather than a synonym, although its
>territory has expanded.
>
>larry
>
>>
>>http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/tm_objectid=15204502&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=futuristic-makeover-for-bugs-bunny-and-co-name_page.html
>>
>>"Carrot-chomping Bugs Bunny is joined by animated favourites Daffy
>>Duck, Wile E Coyote, the Tasmanian Devil, Road Runner and Lola Bunny.
>>
>>"However, hardcore fans are in for a shock - the trademark
>>characteristics will be gone, as will their infamous names.
>>
>>"Bugs is set to be renamed Buzz Bunny, while Daffy Duck will sport a
>>built-in sonar."
>>
>>"Futuristic makeover for Bugs Bunny and Co," icWales, the national
>>website of Wales,(
>>Feb. 18, 2005.
>>
>>(The story reported is itself worthy of infamy  - in the old sense.)
>>
>>JL


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Sun Feb 20 18:35:27 2005
From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 10:35:27 -0800
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <200502192045.j1JKjDfv013510@mxe1.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.103527.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm from Dallas, which I guess (Dallas being east of Ft. Worth)
makes me a Southern English speaker.  I can assure you that I never used
ya'll or you'all singularly, and I was quite put out at 14 when I visited
Northern cousins who teased me by using it singularly!  If I read Wilson's
last line correctly, he meant "whether your informant is black or white."
For what it's worth, in this case, I'm white.

Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, Wilson Gray wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> Subject:      "Y'all" redux
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers could,
> would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
> posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
> Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
> agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
> his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
> use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that "y'all"
> *is* used as a singular.
>
> In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
> that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
> and Fort Worth.
>
> I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
> farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
> description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan area
> in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows that
> East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
> English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
> English.
>
> So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
> depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
> white.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>


From Vocabula at AOL.COM  Sun Feb 20 18:46:53 2005
From: Vocabula at AOL.COM (Robert Hartwell Fiske)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:46:53 EST
Subject: Vocabula in Print
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.134653.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Vocabula Review Is Soon to Be a Print Publication 
In May 2005, we plan to make available Vol. 1, Issue 1 of The Vocabula Review 
-- BOUND, a quarterly journal. 
The first issue will include the contents of the January through April 2005 
issues of the online Vocabula Review. 
Each 5-by-7-inch, perfect bound issue will be approximately 200 pages long. 
You may order here:  http://www.vocabula.com/VRorder.asp



Robert Hartwell Fiske
Editor and Publisher
The Vocabula Review
http://www.vocabula.com/
 
The Vocabula Review
10 Grant Place
Lexington, MA 02420
_________________________
 
Two Vocabula Books: 
 
The Dictionary of Disagreeable English
http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksDisagree.asp 
 
"However curmudgeonly, Mr. Fiske betrays a bluff humanitarian spirit. ... His 
own flogging of Merriam-Webster's is one of the many pleasures of this 
lovely, sour, virtuous book." ? Wall Street Journal  
 
Vocabula Bound: Outbursts, Insights, Explanations, and Oddities
http://www.vocabula.com/VRebooksBound.asp
 
Twenty-five of the best essays and twenty-six of the best poems published in 
The Vocabula Review over the last few years


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Sun Feb 20 18:48:46 2005
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:48:46 -0600
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.61b.0502201033040.117666@homer08.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.124846.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm from south Louisiana and I never (AFAIK) use "y'all" in the
singular. Although I very occasionally hear others use it that way, my
immediate and automatic impression is that they must be "from away," as
we say down here, and are trying on the vernacular. Either that, or
they think that I'm "from away," and are consciously trying to act as
they believe visitors must perceive as being Southern for my benefit.
(I'm often asked where I'm from because I don't always have much of the
local accent. When that happens, I usually say that I'm "from away.")

sally donlon


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Feb 20 19:14:30 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:14:30 -0500
Subject: party hearty (1955), party hardy (1974)
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.141430.0500.>

In case anyone missed the announcement on Language Log, Chris Waigl has
put together a terrific website, the Eggcorn Database:

http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/

I've been posting some entries (though Chris has already covered most of
those that have been discussed here and on the Language Log).  I just put
up an entry for "party hardy":

   -----
   http://eggcorns.lascribe.net/english/134/hardy/

   hearty ? hardy
   Chiefly in:   party hardy

   Web usage runs about 1.3:1 in favor of <party hearty>. The <hardy>
   variant has been popular at least since the '70s (see, e.g., the song
   "Party Hardy" by the funk band Slave released in 1977, the same year
   that another funk band, L.T.D., released "We Party Hearty").

   The variant with <hardy> is clearly influenced by <party hard>.
   -----

I was wondering how old the "hearty" and "hardy" variants are.  Proquest
takes "party hearty" back to 1955:

-----
Washington Post, Dec 24, 1955, p. 21, col. 1
Young Set Still Party Hearty
Those party-hearty people who manage, somehow, to take in four and five
debuts a day are complaining.
-----

The earliest I can find on N-archive for "party hardy" is from 1974:

-----
Stevens Point Daily Journal (Wisc.) Dec 4, 1974, p. 20, col. 4
Spring-Polydor ? "ACT 1," party hardy people, the same old story, do you
feel it.
-----

Is there anything earlier in the various college slang compendia?


--Ben Zimmer


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 19:32:21 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:32:21 -0500
Subject: "infamous" = famous
In-Reply-To: <a06020400be3e7c96a6b2@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.143221.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>larry,
>
>Is "notorious" also a hyponym of "famous", or does it reach up to
>synonym status?
>
>dInIs
>

I'd say it varies across speakers and writers.  I suspect that there
are those who, focusing on the morphology, take it to be a spinoff of
"noted" and hence essentially a synonym of "famous".  For the rest of
us, it's another hyponym, vying for semantic space with "infamous".

L

>
>>At 5:13 PM -0800 2/19/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>Becoming endemic but not in OED, "infamous" as "well-known; famous" :
>>
>>I've noticed this amelioration for awhile, but I don't think it's as
>>simple as Jon's equivalence above, or at least not yet--it's more
>>like "famous in a pop-cultural domain" or "famous (only) for being
>>famous".  Or at least that's the way I've often seen it.  So it can
>>be the "infamous Paris Hilton" or (slightly less likely) "the
>>infamous Brad Pitt" but much less likely "the infamous Mahatma
>>Gandhi", no matter how famous and well-known he was.  Let's google
>>them...
>>
>>"infamous Brad Pitt"  116
>>"infamous Mahatma Gandhi" 0
>>
>>Of course, context is a problem--"infamous Paris Hilton" picks up
>>5690, but mostly of the form "the infamous Paris Hilton sex tapes" or
>>the like.  Still, I think the distinction is real:  "infamous" is
>>still a hyponym of "famous", rather than a synonym, although its
>>territory has expanded.
>>
>>larry
>>
>>>
>>>http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/tm_objectid=15204502&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=futuristic-makeover-for-bugs-bunny-and-co-name_page.html
>>>
>>>"Carrot-chomping Bugs Bunny is joined by animated favourites Daffy
>>>Duck, Wile E Coyote, the Tasmanian Devil, Road Runner and Lola Bunny.
>>>
>>>"However, hardcore fans are in for a shock - the trademark
>>>characteristics will be gone, as will their infamous names.
>>>
>>>"Bugs is set to be renamed Buzz Bunny, while Daffy Duck will sport a
>>>built-in sonar."
>>>
>>>"Futuristic makeover for Bugs Bunny and Co," icWales, the national
>>>website of Wales,(
>>>Feb. 18, 2005.
>>>
>>>(The story reported is itself worthy of infamy  - in the old sense.)
>>>
>>>JL
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 20 19:36:31 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:36:31 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <E1D2mnV-000319-00@mx11.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.143631.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes. I agree with you that this is proper usage.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 19, 2005, at 7:10 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Janis Vizier Nihart <tarheel at MOBILETEL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Y'all" redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> As a white  South Louisianian, I have never heard "Y'all" as a singular
> pronoun, but the use of "y'all's" and "y'all" as a possessive pronoun
> is
> used.(I passed by y'all's/ y'all house yesterday, but y'all weren't
> home.)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:45 PM
> Subject: "Y'all" redux
>
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>> Subject:      "Y'all" redux
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----
> -----
>>
>> In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers
>> could,
>> would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
>> posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
>> Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
>> agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
>> his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
>> use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that
>> "y'all"
>> *is* used as a singular.
>>
>> In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
>> that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
>> and Fort Worth.
>>
>> I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
>> farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
>> description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan
>> area
>> in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows
>> that
>> East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
>> English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
>> English.
>>
>> So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
>> depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
>> white.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>


From write at SCN.ORG  Sun Feb 20 19:56:37 2005
From: write at SCN.ORG (Jan Kammert)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:56:37 -0800
Subject: "infamous" = famous
In-Reply-To: <20050220011304.27634.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.115637.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If this is true, then is there a word to replace the meaning I understand
for infamous (famous for doing bad)?

My 8th grade students seem to think that assassination means any murder,
especially a murder for hire.  If that's true, is there a new word that
means killing someone who is politically important?  I hope the English
language doesn't lose important meanings as old words take on broader
meanings.
Jan


On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Becoming endemic but not in OED, "infamous" as "well-known; famous" :
>
> http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/tm_objectid=15204502&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=futuristic-makeover-for-bugs-bunny-and-co-name_page.html
>
> "Carrot-chomping Bugs Bunny is joined by animated favourites Daffy Duck, Wile E Coyote, the Tasmanian Devil, Road Runner and Lola Bunny.
>
> "However, hardcore fans are in for a shock - the trademark characteristics will be gone, as will their infamous names.
>
> "Bugs is set to be renamed Buzz Bunny, while Daffy Duck will sport a built-in sonar."
>
> "Futuristic makeover for Bugs Bunny and Co," icWales, the national website of Wales,(
> Feb. 18, 2005.
>
> (The story reported is itself worthy of infamy  - in the old sense.)
>
> JL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 20 20:02:22 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:02:22 -0500
Subject: [Bapopik@aol.com: Hawkins]
In-Reply-To: <E1D2plx-0000BS-00@mx17.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.150222.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 19, 2005, at 8:22 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>
> Subject:      [Bapopik at aol.com: Hawkins]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> From Barry.
>
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Bapopik at aol.com -----
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
>
>   Subj:    "Hawkins" in Tamony papers; Big Apple Club (1934)
>   Date:    2/19/2005 7:40:36 PM Eastern Standard Time
>   From:    Bapopik
>   To:    ADS-L at listserv.uga.edu
>
>
>
> OT MISC.
>
> TRAVEL: I will be in the Dominican Republic from February 20-27 with
> my sister. She goes there for treatments for her autistic son.
> Normally, I'd wish that my plane would crash, but my sister is
> actually worth more alive than dead.
>
> BIG APPLE-WORLD'S SECOND HOME: I wrote another letter to the New
> Orleans Times-Picayune about the Big Apple's origin there, and I asked
> them to honor the black stablehands (during Black History Month). I
> guess it wasn't good enough to be published (again)...I wrote a letter
> to the New York Times about the "World's Second Home." I said that
> "Big Apple" originally meant the pinnacle is sports. That wasn't
> published, either, although I received an e-mail from Ellis Hennican
> ("Why Apple?" his story went) that I should send it to Newsday...I
> inexplicably got thousands of hits on my web site yesterday for
> "World's Most Famous Arena." The entry is so old that it has "Welcome
> Republicans!" on it, from July 2004.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> BIG APPLE CLUB
>
> 7 July 1934, New York Amsterdam News, pg. 9, col. 1:
> "This Hectic Harlem" by Roi Ottley
> (...)
> The Big Apple has arrived and is worth your time.
>
>
> This is the earliest I have for the Big Apple Club (135th Street and
> 7th Avenue/Adam Clayton Powell Junior Boulevard).
>
> I had read the Amsterdam News for this period about fifteen years ago,
> but I went through the newspaper again briefly today. Roi Ottley
> called Harlem the "Coal Bin" (not in HDAS?). He also used terms like
> "Cornflakes Boulevard" (not in HDAS?). I'm looking for "Hawkins"
> somewhere in 1934.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> HAWKINS IN TAMONY PAPERS
>
> Gerald Cohen helped to pay for this (I thought he would get a
> discount?) and it arrived today. Here goes:
>
>
> Here are the photocpies of the term "Hawkins" found in the Peter
> Tamony Collection (C3939). I did not photocopy any of the "Hawk"
> clipping because the majority of those referred to either the bird,
> military equipment, or to the Vietnam War with the term "hawks and
> doves". The charge for photocopying was credited to Gerald Cohen's
> account.
>
> Mary Beth Brown
> Manuscript Specialist
> Western Historical Manuscript Collection
> BroMary at umsystem.edu
>
>
> CARD ONE:
> JIVE TALK (Regular column).
> MISTER HAWKINS--The wind, wintertime, cold weather, ice, snow.
> RHYTHM AND BLUES (Onyx Publishing Co., Derby, Conn.).
> December 1954: Vol. 1, No. 15, p. 20/1.
>

FWIW, Vol.1:no.1(?) claimed that Little Richard's real first name is
"Ricardo." However, nothing that I've read since (if there was anything
written about Little Richard's first name before the article in Rhythm
and Blues, I missed it) including the works of Little Richard himself,
has supported this assertion. Too bad, 'cause I was diggin "Ricardo."
It was different, but not freaky different. Gnome sane?

-Wilson Gray


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 20:06:55 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:06:55 -0800
Subject: "Y'all" redux
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.120655.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In E. Tenn. I hear "y'all's" exclusively.  Let's start spelling it "yalls" (to bring it in line with "yours" ) and watch the fun.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes. I agree with you that this is proper usage.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 19, 2005, at 7:10 PM, Janis Vizier Nihart wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Janis Vizier Nihart
> Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> As a white South Louisianian, I have never heard "Y'all" as a singular
> pronoun, but the use of "y'all's" and "y'all" as a possessive pronoun
> is
> used.(I passed by y'all's/ y'all house yesterday, but y'all weren't
> home.)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Wilson Gray"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:45 PM
> Subject: "Y'all" redux
>
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>> Subject: "Y'all" redux
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----
> -----
>>
>> In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers
>> could,
>> would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
>> posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
>> Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
>> agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
>> his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
>> use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that
>> "y'all"
>> *is* used as a singular.
>>
>> In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
>> that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
>> and Fort Worth.
>>
>> I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
>> farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
>> description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan
>> area
>> in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows
>> that
>> East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
>> English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
>> English.
>>
>> So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
>> depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
>> white.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>


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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 20:38:35 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:38:35 -0500
Subject: "infamous" = famous
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.96.1050220115406.9948B-100000@scn>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.153835.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:56 AM -0800 2/20/05, Jan Kammert wrote:
>If this is true, then is there a word to replace the meaning I understand
>for infamous (famous for doing bad)?

Well, there's still "notorious", but as dInIs noted, that hasn't
necessarily resisted broadening (or reinterpretation) either.

>
>My 8th grade students seem to think that assassination means any murder,
>especially a murder for hire.  If that's true, is there a new word that
>means killing someone who is politically important?  I hope the English
>language doesn't lose important meanings as old words take on broader
>meanings.

Well, broadening does happen, although the original narrower meaning
often survives, yielding  autohyponymy, as is happening now with
"guy".  Often the earlier, narrower meaning has to be specified when
necessary by a modifier; what used to be called "oil" must now be
"olive oil", the old "uncle" can now be specified as a mother's
brother, and so on; a pity, perhaps, but the language and its
speakers survive.  Or a new word comes in:  "bird" used to denote the
young of the avian species, which can now be designated as
"fledgeling" or, of course, as "young bird".

The case of "assassination" is interesting.  If we are to trust the
OED's glosses, the earlier meaning merely involved killing "by
treacherous violence", especially "by a hired emissary", which seems
closer to your 8th grade students' use of the term than is the more
specific meaning you suggest, which is basically the one I'd also
have supplied.  I say "basically" because, as Jim McCawley pointed
out, not just ANY murder of a politically or religiously important
personage is ipso facto an assassination--if the governor is killed
by a romantic rival, that doesn't make it an assassination.  This is
reflected in the AHD4's gloss, "To murder (a prominent person) by
surprise attack, as for political reasons".  Interesting how these
accouterments--violence, treachery, political motive, the element of
surprise--seem to come and go.

Of course, some (very old) respondents may object to all of these
senses as involving an unwarranted broadening of the original
concept, since the use of hashish on the assassin's part is no longer
de rigueur...

Larry


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 20:39:56 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:39:56 -0800
Subject: "infamous" = famous; "assassinate" = murder; "feasible" =
 plausible; "ancestor" = descendant.
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.123956.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I too have come across "assassinate" as a simple synonym for "murder."  (Though"murder" is so easier to say !)  This was on the Web, not in the professional media - yet.

Arnold's point about "infamous" is well taken, but a friend of mine has been using it in what seems to me to be a broader sense for at least a dozen years.  Like so many others, he uses "heinous" to mean "quite unpleasant."

Predicative usage sometimes seems to vary with attributive - a point I can't recall seeing addressed.  For example,

                        "... as well as their infamous [i.e., well-known] names."

sounds much more idiomatic than

                        *"The WB characters' names are infamous [well-known]."

Moreover,

                        "The WB characters are infamous for their entertainment value."

also sounds plausible (and not "feasible," which nowadays is a widely used synonym for "plausible").

Placing an old adjective with a new meaning at the very end of a clause strikes a more discordant note.  To me, anyway.

And in a fans' discussion of the same Warner Bros. project, which will place crime-fighting descendants of Bugs Bunny et al. in the 28th century:

Damn, Lola's gonna be in it (well an ancestor anyways) I may watch it after all, not enjoy it mind you, just watch it.

--- "Are these guys morons!!" Feb. 18, 2005, posted by "da_bunnyman" [ http://forum.bcdb.com/forum/_C1/_F2/Are_these_guys_morons!!_P39945/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=39945;page=2;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;guest=4207007 ]

JL


Jan Kammert <write at SCN.ORG> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Jan Kammert
Subject: Re: "infamous" = famous
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If this is true, then is there a word to replace the meaning I understand
for infamous (famous for doing bad)?

My 8th grade students seem to think that assassination means any murder,
especially a murder for hire. If that's true, is there a new word that
means killing someone who is politically important? I hope the English
language doesn't lose important meanings as old words take on broader
meanings.
Jan


On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> Becoming endemic but not in OED, "infamous" as "well-known; famous" :
>
> http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0700world/tm_objectid=15204502&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=futuristic-makeover-for-bugs-bunny-and-co-name_page.html
>
> "Carrot-chomping Bugs Bunny is joined by animated favourites Daffy Duck, Wile E Coyote, the Tasmanian Devil, Road Runner and Lola Bunny.
>
> "However, hardcore fans are in for a shock - the trademark characteristics will be gone, as will their infamous names.
>
> "Bugs is set to be renamed Buzz Bunny, while Daffy Duck will sport a built-in sonar."
>
> "Futuristic makeover for Bugs Bunny and Co," icWales, the national website of Wales,(
> Feb. 18, 2005.
>
> (The story reported is itself worthy of infamy - in the old sense.)
>
> JL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From sussex at UQ.EDU.AU  Sun Feb 20 20:49:39 2005
From: sussex at UQ.EDU.AU (Prof. R. Sussex)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 06:49:39 +1000
Subject: Y'all
In-Reply-To: <200502200838.j1K8c8BW048086@mailhub1.uq.edu.au>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.064939.1000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On the y'all question:
By way of comparison: the Australian version of "y'all" is "youse"
/ju:z/ (via Irish English). Originally plural, it is now used in
non-standard colloquial speech as a singular as well. The vowel is
commonly reduced to schwa:
        how y&z goin'? (how are you?) - either singular or plural addressee
Roly Sussex


--

Roland Sussex
Professor of Applied Language Studies
School of Languages and Comparative Cultural Studies
The University of Queensland
Brisbane
Queensland 4072
AUSTRALIA

University's CRICOS provider number: 00025B

Office: Greenwood 434 (Building 32)
Phone:  +61 7 3365 6896
Fax:    +61 7 3365 6799
Email:  sussex at uq.edu.au
Web:    http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/profiles/sussex.html
School's website:
        http://www.arts.uq.edu.au/slccs/
Applied linguistics website:
        http://www.uq.edu.au/slccs/AppliedLing/

Language Talkback ABC radio:
Web:    http://www.cltr.uq.edu.au/languagetalkback/
Audio:  from    http://www.abc.net.au/hobart/stories/s782293.htm

**********************************************************


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 20:51:48 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:51:48 -0800
Subject: "assassinate" = murder
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.125148.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In regard to the expectant mother murdered for her unborn child :

"At the moment I think all the relatives of this tiny baby and the assassinated mother need love and support."

--"Bloody Skidmore," Dec. 22, 2004, posted by "s&r" at
http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=76762

JL

PS: Observe how current usage politicizes the term "unborn child," which in this case is the simplest and most appropriate phrase I can think of, with no intended sociopolitical comment behind it.


Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: "infamous" = famous
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 11:56 AM -0800 2/20/05, Jan Kammert wrote:
>If this is true, then is there a word to replace the meaning I understand
>for infamous (famous for doing bad)?

Well, there's still "notorious", but as dInIs noted, that hasn't
necessarily resisted broadening (or reinterpretation) either.

>
>My 8th grade students seem to think that assassination means any murder,
>especially a murder for hire. If that's true, is there a new word that
>means killing someone who is politically important? I hope the English
>language doesn't lose important meanings as old words take on broader
>meanings.

Well, broadening does happen, although the original narrower meaning
often survives, yielding autohyponymy, as is happening now with
"guy". Often the earlier, narrower meaning has to be specified when
necessary by a modifier; what used to be called "oil" must now be
"olive oil", the old "uncle" can now be specified as a mother's
brother, and so on; a pity, perhaps, but the language and its
speakers survive. Or a new word comes in: "bird" used to denote the
young of the avian species, which can now be designated as
"fledgeling" or, of course, as "young bird".

The case of "assassination" is interesting. If we are to trust the
OED's glosses, the earlier meaning merely involved killing "by
treacherous violence", especially "by a hired emissary", which seems
closer to your 8th grade students' use of the term than is the more
specific meaning you suggest, which is basically the one I'd also
have supplied. I say "basically" because, as Jim McCawley pointed
out, not just ANY murder of a politically or religiously important
personage is ipso facto an assassination--if the governor is killed
by a romantic rival, that doesn't make it an assassination. This is
reflected in the AHD4's gloss, "To murder (a prominent person) by
surprise attack, as for political reasons". Interesting how these
accouterments--violence, treachery, political motive, the element of
surprise--seem to come and go.

Of course, some (very old) respondents may object to all of these
senses as involving an unwarranted broadening of the original
concept, since the use of hashish on the assassin's part is no longer
de rigueur...

Larry

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 20:55:14 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:55:14 -0800
Subject: "Y'all" redux
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.125514.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sally, your very admission as a Southerner that you have heard other Southerners use "y'all" in the singular will mark you in certain quarters as "not really a Southerner" .

JL

"Sally O. Donlon" <sod at LOUISIANA.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Sally O. Donlon"
Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm from south Louisiana and I never (AFAIK) use "y'all" in the
singular. Although I very occasionally hear others use it that way, my
immediate and automatic impression is that they must be "from away," as
we say down here, and are trying on the vernacular. Either that, or
they think that I'm "from away," and are consciously trying to act as
they believe visitors must perceive as being Southern for my benefit.
(I'm often asked where I'm from because I don't always have much of the
local accent. When that happens, I usually say that I'm "from away.")

sally donlon

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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 20 21:01:30 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:01:30 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <E1D2vva-0003eO-00@mx13.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.160130.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sigh! Where is your spell-checker when you need it? Yes, I meant
"black" and not "back." If I read Crystal aright, part of his claim is
that blacks in Fort Worth are more likely to restrict the use of
"y'all" to the plural than whites are. However, my own personal
experience is that don't *no* real Southern (in the earlier hoo-raw
about "y'all," someone noted that I failed to define "Southern.")
speaker be using no "y'all" as no singular, irregardless of accidentals
like race.

Practically ever since I learned to speak and read, I've heard it
claimed and read it claimed that Southern speakers simply replace
Northern "you" with Southern "you-all" and/or "y'all." To quote Richard
Pryor, as is my wont, "Unreal. And I ain't going for it."

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 20, 2005, at 1:35 PM, J. Eulenberg wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "J. Eulenberg" <eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Y'all" redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I'm from Dallas, which I guess (Dallas being east of Ft. Worth)
> makes me a Southern English speaker.  I can assure you that I never
> used
> ya'll or you'all singularly, and I was quite put out at 14 when I
> visited
> Northern cousins who teased me by using it singularly!  If I read
> Wilson's
> last line correctly, he meant "whether your informant is black or
> white."
> For what it's worth, in this case, I'm white.
>
> Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>
>
> On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, Wilson Gray wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>> Subject:      "Y'all" redux
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>>
>> In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers
>> could,
>> would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
>> posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
>> Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
>> agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
>> his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
>> use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that
>> "y'all"
>> *is* used as a singular.
>>
>> In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
>> that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
>> and Fort Worth.
>>
>> I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
>> farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
>> description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan
>> area
>> in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows
>> that
>> East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
>> English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
>> English.
>>
>> So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
>> depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
>> white.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 20 21:11:55 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:11:55 -0500
Subject: A new phenomenon?
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.161155.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Last night, on local TV, I heard a talking head say, "These phenomenon
must be explained." Of course, this hapax could be merely a tip of the
slongue.

-Wilson Gray


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 21:33:11 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:33:11 -0800
Subject: "infamous" = famous
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.133311.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A handful of further exx.:

" !katy! just infamous for now...Welcome to my site!...Everyone else has a web site these days, so I figured, why not me too?" -- !katy! Feb. 10, 2005, at [ http://theinfamous99.tripod.com/ ].

"Part of The Savoy Group, Simpson's-In-The-Strand is infamous for being one of London's most historic restaurants serving a plethora of exquisitely prepared traditional British dishes. Simpson's-In-The-Strand comprises of three restaurants, the Grand Divan, Simply Simpsons and Knights Bar. This is an ideal venue for private parties, conferences and wedding receptions. Covent Garden."  View London.co.uk,  Feb. 18, 2005 [ www.viewlondon.co.uk/info_restaurant_5508.html ]

"Driven by the fierce, raw energy of pure metallic hardcore, Sacramento?s HOODS have become infamous for their determination and no holds barred work ethic."  --Victory Records, Feb. 19, 2005
[ www.victoryrecords.com/Webstore/ MerchByArtist.asp?ArtistID=1015 ]

"Now, you're infamous for doing very detailed research on the characters
you write, especially the relatively obscure ones."  -- "KurtB: Question About FireStar?" (Usenet: rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe), Aug. 28, 1999, posted by "Isaac Sher."

"The ease of use that Apple is infamous for with its Macintosh computer line was something the company wanted to bring to their digital music player. The iPod only has 4 buttons on it and a scroll wheel." AppleNova Forums iPod Evaluation, July 5, 2004, posted by "Messiahtosh"  [ http://forums.applenova.com/archive/index.php/t-817.html ]

"Ben, you are famous! ... Ben, you are infamous now!" -- "Ben, you are famous! Newest Beast Wars episode" (Usenet: alt.toys.transformers), Oct. 29, 1996, posted by "Gordon Ho."


I might add that in the great majority of occurrences of "infamous" I've seen on the Net, the word is used correctly.

JL



Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: "infamous" = famous
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 5:13 PM -0800 2/19/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Becoming endemic but not in OED, "infamous" as "well-known; famous" :

I've noticed this amelioration for awhile, but I don't think it's as
simple as Jon's equivalence above, or at least not yet--it's more
like "famous in a pop-cultural domain" or "famous (only) for being
famous". Or at least that's the way I've often seen it. So it can
be the "infamous Paris Hilton" or (slightly less likely) "the
infamous Brad Pitt" but much less likely "the infamous Mahatma
Gandhi", no matter how famous and well-known he was. Let's google
them...

"infamous Brad Pitt" 116
"infamous Mahatma Gandhi" 0

Of course, context is a problem--"infamous Paris Hilton" picks up
5690, but mostly of the form "the infamous Paris Hilton sex tapes" or
the like. Still, I think the distinction is real: "infamous" is
still a hyponym of "famous", rather than a synonym, although its
territory has expanded.

larry


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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 20 21:43:25 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:43:25 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <E1D2y6m-00003G-00@mx08.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.164325.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On the contrary, it marks those who use "y'all" as a singular as not
really being Southern-speakers. I'd really love to hear "y'all" used as
a singular somewhere other than in books and movies or on TV or radio.
The closest that I've come to that is hearing people, including your
humble correspondent, use both "y'all/you-all" and "you" as plurals in
unmonitored speech.

-Wilson Gray


On Feb 20, 2005, at 3:55 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Y'all" redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Sally, your very admission as a Southerner that you have heard other
> Southerners use "y'all" in the singular will mark you in certain
> quarters as "not really a Southerner" .
>
> JL
>
> "Sally O. Donlon" <sod at LOUISIANA.EDU> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Sally O. Donlon"
> Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I'm from south Louisiana and I never (AFAIK) use "y'all" in the
> singular. Although I very occasionally hear others use it that way, my
> immediate and automatic impression is that they must be "from away," as
> we say down here, and are trying on the vernacular. Either that, or
> they think that I'm "from away," and are consciously trying to act as
> they believe visitors must perceive as being Southern for my benefit.
> (I'm often asked where I'm from because I don't always have much of the
> local accent. When that happens, I usually say that I'm "from away.")
>
> sally donlon
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 21:53:24 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 13:53:24 -0800
Subject: A new phenomenon?
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.135324.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A quick check of Usenet news groups reveals 1,100 exx. of "these phenomenon," 124 for "many phenomenon," and 29 for "number of phenomenon."

There are  5,020  for "phenomenons."


JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: A new phenomenon?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last night, on local TV, I heard a talking head say, "These phenomenon
must be explained." Of course, this hapax could be merely a tip of the
slongue.

-Wilson Gray


---------------------------------
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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 20 21:57:45 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:57:45 -0500
Subject: Fox "kits"?
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.165745.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a newspaper article about the taming of foxes, the author referred
to what I know as fox "cubs" as fox "kits." Fox "kits"?! Why not fox
"pups"? There's a species of vulpine known as a "kit fox." Perhaps the
writer had that in mind.

-Wilson


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 20 22:00:13 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:00:13 -0500
Subject: A new phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <E1D2z16-0007nO-00@mx07.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.170013.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Say what?! Take me now, Jesus!

-Wilson

On Feb 20, 2005, at 4:53 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: A new phenomenon?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> A quick check of Usenet news groups reveals 1,100 exx. of "these
> phenomenon," 124 for "many phenomenon," and 29 for "number of
> phenomenon."
>
> There are  5,020  for "phenomenons."
>
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: A new phenomenon?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Last night, on local TV, I heard a talking head say, "These phenomenon
> must be explained." Of course, this hapax could be merely a tip of the
> slongue.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
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>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 22:06:43 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:06:43 -0800
Subject: "Y'all" redux
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.140643.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Would somebody please post a reference to a seemingly intelligent printed source - or any source - that confidently asserts that Southerners address individuals as "y'all"?  It would be nice if the source was more recent than, say, 1930, but I'll take anything.  It would be good to know exactly what it is that is being defended against.

Here's a damnyankee hypothesis for quiet consideration: singular "y'all" used to be far more common than it is today, particularly among the poorest and least educated Southerners of either race. The Dixie patriots who emotionalized the issue eighty and more years ago would see themselves in hell before they'd let any scallywaggin', tail-draggin', carpetbaggin', yellowbellied bluebellies mistake THEM for TRASH!

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the contrary, it marks those who use "y'all" as a singular as not
really being Southern-speakers. I'd really love to hear "y'all" used as
a singular somewhere other than in books and movies or on TV or radio.
The closest that I've come to that is hearing people, including your
humble correspondent, use both "y'all/you-all" and "you" as plurals in
unmonitored speech.

-Wilson Gray


On Feb 20, 2005, at 3:55 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Sally, your very admission as a Southerner that you have heard other
> Southerners use "y'all" in the singular will mark you in certain
> quarters as "not really a Southerner" .
>
> JL
>
> "Sally O. Donlon" wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Sally O. Donlon"
> Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I'm from south Louisiana and I never (AFAIK) use "y'all" in the
> singular. Although I very occasionally hear others use it that way, my
> immediate and automatic impression is that they must be "from away," as
> we say down here, and are trying on the vernacular. Either that, or
> they think that I'm "from away," and are consciously trying to act as
> they believe visitors must perceive as being Southern for my benefit.
> (I'm often asked where I'm from because I don't always have much of the
> local accent. When that happens, I usually say that I'm "from away.")
>
> sally donlon
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>



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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 22:10:57 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:10:57 -0800
Subject: Fox "kits"?
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.141057.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Merriam-Webster has kit, "a young or undersized fur-bearing animal."  OED has it as a short form of kitten, with references to minks (1970) and muskrats (1974).

See, it's ALWAYS worse than you think: Lighter's Law.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Fox "kits"?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a newspaper article about the taming of foxes, the author referred
to what I know as fox "cubs" as fox "kits." Fox "kits"?! Why not fox
"pups"? There's a species of vulpine known as a "kit fox." Perhaps the
writer had that in mind.

-Wilson


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From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Sun Feb 20 22:33:24 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:33:24 -0600
Subject: Fox "kits"?
In-Reply-To: <200502201710.68f42190af31c8@rly-nc05.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.163324.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My "National Audubon Society Guide to North American Mammals" says
this:  "the mother [fox] brings live prey, enabling the kits to practice
killing."

I've always called them "kits" myself.

Patti Kurtz

wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM wrote:

>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Fox "kits"?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Merriam-Webster has kit, "a young or undersized fur-bearing animal."  OED has it as a short form of kitten, with references to minks (1970) and muskrats (1974).
>
>See, it's ALWAYS worse than you think: Lighter's Law.
>
>JL
>
>Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Wilson Gray
>Subject: Fox "kits"?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>In a newspaper article about the taming of foxes, the author referred
>to what I know as fox "cubs" as fox "kits." Fox "kits"?! Why not fox
>"pups"? There's a species of vulpine known as a "kit fox." Perhaps the
>writer had that in mind.
>
>-Wilson
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>
>

--

Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the monster?



Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.



Freeman - It's called dedication.



Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.


From douglas at NB.NET  Sun Feb 20 22:36:52 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:36:52 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <20050220220643.7767.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.173652.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Would somebody please post a reference to a seemingly intelligent printed
>source - or any source - that confidently asserts that Southerners address
>individuals as "y'all"?  It would be nice if the source was more recent
>than, say, 1930, but I'll take anything.  It would be good to know exactly
>what it is that is being defended against.

Crystal's recent book does assert that Fort Worthers (or is it "Worthians"
or "Forteans"?) do this. The first example he encountered (IIRC) was from
the clerk or storekeeper where he went to buy a Stetson hat. I wasn't there
and I've never seen Crystal or heard him speak, but one thing which tends
to be near a Texas hotel in my limited experience is a store selling
Stetsons, tooled boots, etc. to tourists from such places as London, Tokyo,
and Chicago. With clerks necessarily quite conscious of their Texan-ness
(or is that "Texianity"?). Crystal does recount other examples of singular
"y'all", but again there is reason to suspect that some may put on this
sort of thing for the furriners.

What is the opposite of "hypercorrection" again? I live in Pittsburgh. Many
Pittsburghers use "you-uns"/"yinz" as the plural of "you", some don't, but
essentially everybody knows that the 'correct' or 'standard' version is
"you" [pl.]. So "yinz" is either lower-register or explicitly-local. In
order to sound even more homey/slangy/explicitly-local one might go one
step further and put "yinz" for every instance of "you", singular or
plural. I'm sure I've encountered this, although not often. The same might
occur elsewhere, IMHO, with "y'all", for example, or "youse", in US or UK.

-- Doug Wilson


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 23:25:38 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:25:38 -0800
Subject: "Y'all" redux
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.152538.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry for leaving out the word "routinely": "that Southerners *routinely* address individuals as 'y'all.' "

I was so angry that I'd accidentally deleted the earlier, better phrased post before I sent it that I left out a key word.

But it certainly is remarkable that any evidence  that some Southerners, in certain circumstances, can actually use a singular "y'all" is denounced or ridiculed.

So if one ever does hear a singular y'all from a Southerner, that Southerner is just a-play-actin' for the furriners.  Or "perceived" furriners, perhaps. Or the Southerner is really from Texas, which doesn't count. Or West Texas, for sure.

JL

"Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Would somebody please post a reference to a seemingly intelligent printed
>source - or any source - that confidently asserts that Southerners address
>individuals as "y'all"? It would be nice if the source was more recent
>than, say, 1930, but I'll take anything. It would be good to know exactly
>what it is that is being defended against.

Crystal's recent book does assert that Fort Worthers (or is it "Worthians"
or "Forteans"?) do this. The first example he encountered (IIRC) was from
the clerk or storekeeper where he went to buy a Stetson hat. I wasn't there
and I've never seen Crystal or heard him speak, but one thing which tends
to be near a Texas hotel in my limited experience is a store selling
Stetsons, tooled boots, etc. to tourists from such places as London, Tokyo,
and Chicago. With clerks necessarily quite conscious of their Texan-ness
(or is that "Texianity"?). Crystal does recount other examples of singular
"y'all", but again there is reason to suspect that some may put on this
sort of thing for the furriners.

What is the opposite of "hypercorrection" again? I live in Pittsburgh. Many
Pittsburghers use "you-uns"/"yinz" as the plural of "you", some don't, but
essentially everybody knows that the 'correct' or 'standard' version is
"you" [pl.]. So "yinz" is either lower-register or explicitly-local. In
order to sound even more homey/slangy/explicitly-local one might go one
step further and put "yinz" for every instance of "you", singular or
plural. I'm sure I've encountered this, although not often. The same might
occur elsewhere, IMHO, with "y'all", for example, or "youse", in US or UK.

-- Doug Wilson


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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 23:42:35 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:42:35 -0800
Subject: "slackard" = slacker
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.154235.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just Googled up 1,700 of these.  Earliest (Usenet) is from Nov. 27, 1998.  "Obviously"
< slack(er) + (slugg)ard, but something phonological is at work, I think.

JL

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From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 20 23:47:07 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 18:47:07 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Quantum Mechanics"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502200954350.25073-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.184707.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

quantum mechanics (OED, in modern sense, 1925)

1924 _Amer. Mathematical Monthly_ Mar. 126  Perhaps the fundamental
directedness of the world events is not expressed in the equations of
ordinary dynamics, but strikes its roots deeper into the underlying
quantum mechanics.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 20 23:52:07 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:52:07 -0800
Subject: "slackard" = slacker
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.155207.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a similar vein, Usenet yields a dozen or so seemingly independent cases of "buggard(s)" = bugger(s) (noun).  Likewise a few dozen for "scholard(s)" = scholar(s).

JL


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From douglas at NB.NET  Mon Feb 21 00:14:10 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 19:14:10 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <20050220232538.91109.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.191410.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Sorry for leaving out the word "routinely": "that Southerners *routinely*
>address individuals as 'y'all.' "
>
>I was so angry that I'd accidentally deleted the earlier, better phrased
>post before I sent it that I left out a key word.
>
>But it certainly is remarkable that any evidence  that some Southerners,
>in certain circumstances, can actually use a singular "y'all" is denounced
>or ridiculed.
>
>So if one ever does hear a singular y'all from a Southerner, that
>Southerner is just a-play-actin' for the furriners.  Or "perceived"
>furriners, perhaps. Or the Southerner is really from Texas, which doesn't
>count. Or West Texas, for sure.

Certainly I hope not to make anyone angry. I do not believe that I either
asserted or denied that some persons routinely use singular "y'all". If I
have to guess, I'll guess that some do ... how many, north or south, I
don't know. I don't recall being acquainted with such a person myself, but
that doesn't mean much. I doubt anybody here denies that some persons
sometimes use singular "y'all" (I'm sure nobody denies that singular "we"
or "they" occurs either). As for the 'furriners', the above sarcastic
inversion of my casual remark of course does not accurately represent my
belief: rather I believe that exaggeration of one's local speech
characteristics in certain contexts might partially explain contradictory
reports on this subject: the exaggeration might be done for tourists or for
one's local friends or just out of habit or whatever. Just my idle notion.

-- Doug Wilson


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 21 00:41:56 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 16:41:56 -0800
Subject: "Y'all" redux
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.164156.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No sarcsm was intended.  It's just that this remarkable idea had come up twice in one afternoon, seriously intended both times so far as I could tell.

Also, I was not angry at you, Doug. As I wrote, "I was so angry that I'd accidentally deleted the earlier, better phrased post before I sent it that I left out a key word."  A comma after "it" was probably in order.

JL

"Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Sorry for leaving out the word "routinely": "that Southerners *routinely*
>address individuals as 'y'all.' "
>
>I was so angry that I'd accidentally deleted the earlier, better phrased
>post before I sent it that I left out a key word.
>
>But it certainly is remarkable that any evidence that some Southerners,
>in certain circumstances, can actually use a singular "y'all" is denounced
>or ridiculed.
>
>So if one ever does hear a singular y'all from a Southerner, that
>Southerner is just a-play-actin' for the furriners. Or "perceived"
>furriners, perhaps. Or the Southerner is really from Texas, which doesn't
>count. Or West Texas, for sure.

Certainly I hope not to make anyone angry. I do not believe that I either
asserted or denied that some persons routinely use singular "y'all". If I
have to guess, I'll guess that some do ... how many, north or south, I
don't know. I don't recall being acquainted with such a person myself, but
that doesn't mean much. I doubt anybody here denies that some persons
sometimes use singular "y'all" (I'm sure nobody denies that singular "we"
or "they" occurs either). As for the 'furriners', the above sarcastic
inversion of my casual remark of course does not accurately represent my
belief: rather I believe that exaggeration of one's local speech
characteristics in certain contexts might partially explain contradictory
reports on this subject: the exaggeration might be done for tourists or for
one's local friends or just out of habit or whatever. Just my idle notion.

-- Doug Wilson


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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Feb 21 01:05:30 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 20:05:30 -0500
Subject: "slackard" = slacker
In-Reply-To: <20050220234235.83596.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.20.FEB.2005.200530.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Just Googled up 1,700 of these.  Earliest (Usenet) is from Nov. 27,
>1998.  "Obviously"
>< slack(er) + (slugg)ard, but something phonological is at work, I think.
>
>JL
>
Could be it's not necessary a simply blend, but a reanalysis of
"slacker" as containing the deprecatory -ard suffix, also seen in
laggard (a closer match than "sluggard", perhaps) and of course other
pejoratives from the same general family, e.g. "drunkard".

Larry


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Feb 21 10:25:20 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:25:20 +0000
Subject: "Love Mussel"
In-Reply-To: <200502172052.j1HKqaXN003456@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.102520.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 17/2/05 8:52 pm, Laurence Horn at laurence.horn at YALE.EDU wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Love muscle"
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> Not to be confused with the Love Mussel:  cf.
> http://www.thetoque.net/050111/love_mussel.htm

That would be the Love Mussel possessing the following attribute:

"This muscular manly mollusk is so desirable, it has been known to cause
women to feint."

Perhaps they only feinted fainting.


-Neil Crawford


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Mon Feb 21 11:41:03 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:41:03 +0000
Subject: 'walk of shame' origin?
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.114103.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

'This was something I had vowed never to do, put myself in the hook-up
position in someone's fraternity house. Because nothing's anonymous at this
school, despite what you'd think from the size. A walk of shame the next
morning would definitely make 34th Street [last 2 words italicised].'

-Rachel Solar-Tuttle, 'number 6 fumbles', Pocket Books, NY, 2002, 39

I understand the concept, but wondered if the origin is sexual or sporting,
and would be interested to learn of it's earliest occurrence.

- Neil Crawford
(who can't figure out to change his posting name from 'Neil' to 'Neil
Crawford'


From remlingk at GVSU.EDU  Mon Feb 21 13:32:52 2005
From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:32:52 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.083252.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A few more examples of dialects in films:

Mickey Blue Eyes ( a new New York City variey; also good for discussion
of dialect acquisition and accommodation--Hugh Grant plays a character
who tries to fit


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 21 13:59:02 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 05:59:02 -0800
Subject: to "effort" = to make an effort toward resolving one's
 differences with
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.055902.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Breaking News !

Just moments ago, "Fox & Friends" carried a segment about secret talks being held between the U.S. military and "nationalist insurgents" in Iraq.  The caption read "EFFORTING THE ENEMY."  At first I thought it was "Effecting," which at least has undergraduate sanction behind it.  But no, it was "EFFORTING THE ENEMY."

A Google search turned up well over a thousand exx. of "efforting."

JL

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From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Mon Feb 21 14:09:51 2005
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:09:51 -0600
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <20050220205515.89275.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.080951.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I only report what I hear.

For the rest, you'll have to tell that to my grandparents...

sod


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 21 15:20:54 2005
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 07:20:54 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <20050219025152.79961.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.072054.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm from the Rocky Mountains, and I found it
appalling!




--- Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> I understand that Dick Van Dyke's Cockney in "Mary
> Poppins" is regarded as appalling by many English
> people.
>
> In fact, most stars before the age of intensive
> dialect coaching just muddled through "dialect"
> roles.  Kevin Costner (CA) was ridiculed for his
> "Hyannisport" accent in "Fourteen Days," but to a
> geezer saturated in the JFK era, he seemed OK.
>
> Gwyneth Paltrow (CA / MA) as "Emma" ? She sure
> fooled me !
>
> JL
>
> "Patti J. Kurtz" <kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz"
> Subject: Dialects in film
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Hi everyone. We've discussed films in which language
> features
> prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to
> compile is a list of
> films in which the characters speak in dialects.
> (for example,
> "Fargo") for my dialects class. I'd like names of
> both films that
> represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and
> those that don't,
> since we're going to talk about dialects in the
> media at some point. I
> can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can
> think of more. And I'm
> thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than
> films like "American
> Tongues."
>
> Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by
> me and by my
> students, who are enjoying the course a lot!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Patti Kurtz
> Minot State University
> --
>
> Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the
> monster?
>
>
>
> Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.
>
>
>
> Freeman - It's called dedication.
>
>
>
> Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.



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From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Feb 21 15:34:57 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:34:57 -0500
Subject: to "effort" = to make an effort toward resolving one's
 differenc
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.103457.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This should be compared with OED:

1662 Fuller _Worthiers_ (1840) 1. 276  He efforted his spirits with the
remembrance .. of what formerly he had been.

NewspaperARCHIVE.com has 27 articles with "efforting."  Coincidentally (?)
a search of "efforted" also turned up 27 articles.  However, I have not
checked (now the popular word is vetted) these.
ProQuest (27 newspapers) has one article (1989) for "efforting," which
contains a note about that usage "mangling" the language.  For "efforted"
ProQuest provides four articles.
It would be interesting to see what Nexis has.

Regards,
David

barnhart at highlands.com


American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on Monday, February 21,
2005 at 8:59 AM -0500 wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>Subject:      to "effort" = to make an effort toward resolving one's
>              differences with
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Breaking News !
>
>Just moments ago, "Fox & Friends" carried a segment about secret talks
>being held between the U.S. military and "nationalist insurgents" in
>Iraq.  The caption read "EFFORTING THE ENEMY."  At first I thought it was
>"Effecting," which at least has undergraduate sanction behind it.  But
>no, it was "EFFORTING THE ENEMY."
>
>A Google search turned up well over a thousand exx. of "efforting."
>
>JL
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Feb 21 16:24:28 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 08:24:28 -0800
Subject: A new phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <20050220215324.68873.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.082428.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Sunday, February 20, 2005 1:53 PM -0800 Jonathan Lighter
<wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> A quick check of Usenet news groups reveals 1,100 exx. of "these
> phenomenon," 124 for "many phenomenon," and 29 for "number of phenomenon."
>
> There are  5,020  for "phenomenons."

"Phenomenons" and not "phenomenas"?!  That's an astounding phenomena!

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Feb 21 16:57:18 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:57:18 -0500
Subject: "Y'all redux"
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.115718.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I wonder if "y'all" addressed to an individual may not sometimes simply be
a kind of formal, shy politesse, functioning rather like the tu/vous
distinction in French. A way of not being too pointed or familiar with
another person.  I think, in particular, of a store clerk in southwestern
Ohio (whose accent would probably be familiar to dInIs) who routinely said
to individual customers: "Y'all come back, now, y'hear?"
In any case, unless a dogmatic definition of "southern" as /not using
"y'all" except as a plural/, it is absurd to go on saying "no true
southerner ever, &c.", when there have been numerous attestations of such
usage in this and previous discussions of "y'all."
Just the two-cents' worth of a bystander who has never lived south of the
34th parallel.
A. Murie

A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From preston at MSU.EDU  Mon Feb 21 16:59:43 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:59:43 -0500
Subject: "Y'all redux"
In-Reply-To: <l03130300be3fc2ab1873@[12.107.149.141]>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.115943.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I stayed out of SW Ohio a lot when I was a kid (we were Cards fans,
not Reds fans), but I reckon they would have sounded a bit like me,
although the SE Ohio folk probably sounded more like me (cept for
that feesh & poosh stuff).

I wouldn't pay too much attention to items in the phrase "Y'all come
back, now, y'hear?," which has such formulaic status as to make the
internal elements suspect. Even Michiganders offer this phase when
asked what Southerners sound like.

dInIs



>I wonder if "y'all" addressed to an individual may not sometimes simply be
>a kind of formal, shy politesse, functioning rather like the tu/vous
>distinction in French. A way of not being too pointed or familiar with
>another person.  I think, in particular, of a store clerk in southwestern
>Ohio (whose accent would probably be familiar to dInIs) who routinely said
>to individual customers: "Y'all come back, now, y'hear?"
>In any case, unless a dogmatic definition of "southern" as /not using
>"y'all" except as a plural/, it is absurd to go on saying "no true
>southerner ever, &c.", when there have been numerous attestations of such
>usage in this and previous discussions of "y'all."
>Just the two-cents' worth of a bystander who has never lived south of the
>34th parallel.
>A. Murie
>
>A&M Murie
>N. Bangor NY
>sagehen at westelcom.com


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Mon Feb 21 17:07:23 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:07:23 -0500
Subject: oops!  Re: "Y'all redux"
In-Reply-To: <l03130300be3fc2ab1873@[12.107.149.141]>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.120723.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Left out  ...is allowed...  from sentence beginning  " In any case, unless
a..."
AM

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>


From jimsmuse at COMCAST.NET  Mon Feb 21 17:00:15 2005
From: jimsmuse at COMCAST.NET (Your Name)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:00:15 +0000
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.170015.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned "Coal Miner's Daughter" during this discussion of movie dialects.   Every time I see it I am amazed all over again at the consistency of Sissy Spacek's speech in the movie.

Then again, I do know that familiarity with a native speaker can make all the difference.   I thought Mel Gibson's Scots in "Braveheart" was fairly believeable, until I had occasion to have a Scottish house-guest for a month.  After 3 weeks of the visit, we sat down to watch "Braveheart" together and I was amazed at the difference in my perception of Mel's attempt at an authentic burr after spending time with a Scottish native.   Two years later (and after spending extended time in Scotland), I almost cannot bear to watch the movie because the accents sound so awful, and I'm guessing there may be some folks from Loretta Lynn's hometown of Butcher Holler that find "Coal Miner's Daughter" just as difficult to endure...

Other movies that occur to me in fun are "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" and "Valley Girl", both of which contain a California dialect that is "fer shure" different than what we speak here on the East Coast, and both of which added a few phrases to the popular speech of the day.

Respectfully,

Carrie Lowery
jimsmuse at comcast.net







-------------- Original message --------------

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: James Smith
> Subject: Re: Dialects in film
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm from the Rocky Mountains, and I found it
> appalling!
>
>
>
>
> --- Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
> > I understand that Dick Van Dyke's Cockney in "Mary
> > Poppins" is regarded as appalling by many English
> > people.
> >
> > In fact, most stars before the age of intensive
> > dialect coaching just muddled through "dialect"
> > roles. Kevin Costner (CA) was ridiculed for his
> > "Hyannisport" accent in "Fourteen Days," but to a
> > geezer saturated in the JFK era, he seemed OK.
> >
> > Gwyneth Paltrow (CA / MA) as "Emma" ? She sure
> > fooled me !
> >
> > JL
> >
> > "Patti J. Kurtz" wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz"
> > Subject: Dialects in film
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Hi everyone. We've discussed films in which language
> > features
> > prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to
> > compile is a list of
> > films in which the characters speak in dialects.
> > (for example,
> > "Fargo") for my dialects class. I'd like names of
> > both films that
> > represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and
> > those that don't,
> > since we're going to talk about dialects in the
> > media at some point. I
> > can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can
> > think of more. And I'm
> > thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than
> > films like "American
> > Tongues."
> >
> > Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by
> > me and by my
> > students, who are enjoying the course a lot!
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Patti Kurtz
> > Minot State University
> > --
> >
> > Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the
> > monster?
> >
> >
> >
> > Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.
> >
> >
> >
> > Freeman - It's called dedication.
> >
> >
> >
> > Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
> =====
> James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything
> South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued
> jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively
> |or slowly and cautiously.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


From simon at IPFW.EDU  Mon Feb 21 17:13:30 2005
From: simon at IPFW.EDU (Beth Simon)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:13:30 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.121330.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Kevin Costner and rest of crew  * in if You Build It, They Will Come * sorry, i'm blanking the title * the baseball diamond in a cornfield movie


(sorry if this has been mentioned, i've missed some posts)

beth

beth lee simon, ph.d.
associate professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
fort wayne, in 46805-1499
u.s.
voice (011) 260 481 6761; fax (011) 260 481 6985
email simon at ipfw.edu


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Feb 21 17:22:25 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:22:25 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <000501c516e0$9be2e1f0$dfc23ed1@yourqt3aq81vb5>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.122225.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"y'all house" as possessive?  I've heard both "y'all's" and "y'allses" as
possessive, but not "y'all."  Do you have "y'allses"?

At 07:10 PM 2/19/2005, you wrote:
>As a white  South Louisianian, I have never heard "Y'all" as a singular
>pronoun, but the use of "y'all's" and "y'all" as a possessive pronoun is
>used.(I passed by y'all's/ y'all house yesterday, but y'all weren't home.)
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:45 PM
>Subject: "Y'all" redux
>
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
>header -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> > Subject:      "Y'all" redux
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-----
> >
> > In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers could,
> > would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
> > posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
> > Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
> > agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
> > his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
> > use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that "y'all"
> > *is* used as a singular.
> >
> > In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
> > that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
> > and Fort Worth.
> >
> > I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
> > farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
> > description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan area
> > in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows that
> > East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
> > English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
> > English.
> >
> > So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
> > depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
> > white.
> >
> > -Wilson Gray
> >


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Feb 21 17:25:51 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:25:51 -0800
Subject: Double-barreled "literal"
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.092551.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just heard my favorite use yet of "literal" to mean its virtual opposite.
When I turned on NPR this morning--about 5 to 7:00--an interviewee was
saying, "It would be a literal cyber-Pearl Harbor."  I didn't hear enough
to get the larger context.

Just thought I'd share.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 21 17:36:39 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:36:39 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.093639.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There are several Scottish dialects / accents.  To Scots, Glaswegians, for example, sound "nothing like" Aberdonians.

JL
Your Name <jimsmuse at COMCAST.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Your Name
Subject: Re: Dialects in film
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned "Coal Miner's Daughter" during this discussion of movie dialects. Every time I see it I am amazed all over again at the consistency of Sissy Spacek's speech in the movie.

Then again, I do know that familiarity with a native speaker can make all the difference. I thought Mel Gibson's Scots in "Braveheart" was fairly believeable, until I had occasion to have a Scottish house-guest for a month. After 3 weeks of the visit, we sat down to watch "Braveheart" together and I was amazed at the difference in my perception of Mel's attempt at an authentic burr after spending time with a Scottish native. Two years later (and after spending extended time in Scotland), I almost cannot bear to watch the movie because the accents sound so awful, and I'm guessing there may be some folks from Loretta Lynn's hometown of Butcher Holler that find "Coal Miner's Daughter" just as difficult to endure...

Other movies that occur to me in fun are "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure" and "Valley Girl", both of which contain a California dialect that is "fer shure" different than what we speak here on the East Coast, and both of which added a few phrases to the popular speech of the day.

Respectfully,

Carrie Lowery
jimsmuse at comcast.net







-------------- Original message --------------

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: James Smith
> Subject: Re: Dialects in film
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm from the Rocky Mountains, and I found it
> appalling!
>
>
>
>
> --- Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
> > I understand that Dick Van Dyke's Cockney in "Mary
> > Poppins" is regarded as appalling by many English
> > people.
> >
> > In fact, most stars before the age of intensive
> > dialect coaching just muddled through "dialect"
> > roles. Kevin Costner (CA) was ridiculed for his
> > "Hyannisport" accent in "Fourteen Days," but to a
> > geezer saturated in the JFK era, he seemed OK.
> >
> > Gwyneth Paltrow (CA / MA) as "Emma" ? She sure
> > fooled me !
> >
> > JL
> >
> > "Patti J. Kurtz" wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz"
> > Subject: Dialects in film
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Hi everyone. We've discussed films in which language
> > features
> > prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to
> > compile is a list of
> > films in which the characters speak in dialects.
> > (for example,
> > "Fargo") for my dialects class. I'd like names of
> > both films that
> > represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and
> > those that don't,
> > since we're going to talk about dialects in the
> > media at some point. I
> > can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can
> > think of more. And I'm
> > thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than
> > films like "American
> > Tongues."
> >
> > Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by
> > me and by my
> > students, who are enjoying the course a lot!
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Patti Kurtz
> > Minot State University
> > --
> >
> > Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the
> > monster?
> >
> >
> >
> > Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.
> >
> >
> >
> > Freeman - It's called dedication.
> >
> >
> >
> > Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
> =====
> James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything
> South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued
> jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively
> |or slowly and cautiously.
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 21 17:40:46 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:40:46 -0800
Subject: "Y'all" redux
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.094046.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Come to think of it, I've heard "y'allses," but only a few times.  Definitely a working-class usage.

JL

Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Beverly Flanigan
Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"y'all house" as possessive? I've heard both "y'all's" and "y'allses" as
possessive, but not "y'all." Do you have "y'allses"?

At 07:10 PM 2/19/2005, you wrote:
>As a white South Louisianian, I have never heard "Y'all" as a singular
>pronoun, but the use of "y'all's" and "y'all" as a possessive pronoun is
>used.(I passed by y'all's/ y'all house yesterday, but y'all weren't home.)
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Wilson Gray"
>To:
>Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:45 PM
>Subject: "Y'all" redux
>
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
>header -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Wilson Gray
> > Subject: "Y'all" redux
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>-----
> >
> > In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers could,
> > would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
> > posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
> > Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
> > agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
> > his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
> > use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that "y'all"
> > *is* used as a singular.
> >
> > In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
> > that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
> > and Fort Worth.
> >
> > I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
> > farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
> > description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan area
> > in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows that
> > East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
> > English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
> > English.
> >
> > So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
> > depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
> > white.
> >
> > -Wilson Gray
> >


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 21 17:44:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:44:00 -0800
Subject: Double-barreled "literal"
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.094400.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My fave is "ironically," in the well-established media sense of "interestingly."  There seems to be no corresponding usage of "ironic," but I'm sure that a careful Googling would prove me wrong.

JL

"Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Peter A. McGraw"

Subject: Double-barreled "literal"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just heard my favorite use yet of "literal" to mean its virtual opposite.
When I turned on NPR this morning--about 5 to 7:00--an interviewee was
saying, "It would be a literal cyber-Pearl Harbor." I didn't hear enough
to get the larger context.

Just thought I'd share.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 21 17:49:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 09:49:00 -0800
Subject: A new phenomenon?
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.094900.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry that the madness overtook the method.  Google up "phenomenas" and find 11,300 on the Web alone.

How long will science ignore this phenomena?  It's feasible that our ancestors will laugh.

JL

"Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Peter A. McGraw"

Subject: Re: A new phenomenon?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--On Sunday, February 20, 2005 1:53 PM -0800 Jonathan Lighter
wrote:

> A quick check of Usenet news groups reveals 1,100 exx. of "these
> phenomenon," 124 for "many phenomenon," and 29 for "number of phenomenon."
>
> There are 5,020 for "phenomenons."

"Phenomenons" and not "phenomenas"?! That's an astounding phenomena!

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Mon Feb 21 18:20:52 2005
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 12:20:52 -0600
Subject: dialects in film
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.122052.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Meryl Streep did a fabulous job of some regional Polish dialect in
"Sophie's Choice."

I didn't notice it so much at the time because I had no real frame of
reference. However, several years later I found myself in a pitch black
elevator shaft and descending I-don't-know-how-many-hundred-feet to
view these incredible carved caverns in an old salt mine in Poland. The
darkness was so deep I literally [used literally] could not see my hand
in front of my face when I held it up to test the old colloquialism.
Suddenly, Meryl Streep's "Sophie" rushed into my consciousness. I saw
her as I could not see my hand. The trigger: the local tour guide, a
young woman whose disembodied voice was exactly the same one I had
heard years ago coming from Meryl Streep.

The odd thing is that I hadn't noticed it earlier in the visit.
Presumably because other sensory input had distracted me. But, in the
deep darkness, the mental representation was triggered by the single
sensory input of the tour guide's voice.

sod


From alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 21 18:35:45 2005
From: alphatwin2002 at YAHOO.COM (Brenda Lester)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 10:35:45 -0800
Subject: dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <1eec0428d381075b3146750cc5296e3b@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.103545.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Take a look at Ann-Margaret in _Cheap Detective_.  She plays a Romanian posing as an American. She fails because she cannot pronounce the word "baubles." She says, "burbles."

Brenda


"Sally O. Donlon" <sod at LOUISIANA.EDU> wrote:
Meryl Streep did a fabulous job of some regional Polish dialect in
"Sophie's Choice."

I didn't notice it so much at the time because I had no real frame of
reference. However, several years later I found myself in a pitch black
elevator shaft and descending I-don't-know-how-many-hundred-feet to
view these incredible carved caverns in an old salt mine in Poland. The
darkness was so deep I literally [used literally] could not see my hand
in front of my face when I held it up to test the old colloquialism.
Suddenly, Meryl Streep's "Sophie" rushed into my consciousness. I saw
her as I could not see my hand. The trigger: the local tour guide, a
young woman whose disembodied voice was exactly the same one I had
heard years ago coming from Meryl Streep.

The odd thing is that I hadn't noticed it earlier in the visit.
Presumably because other sensory input had distracted me. But, in the
deep darkness, the mental representation was triggered by the single
sensory input of the tour guide's voice.

sod


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Mon Feb 21 18:45:15 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 13:45:15 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <s219d075.076@groupwise1.ipfw.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.134515.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Beth Simon wrote:
> Kevin Costner and rest of crew  * in if You Build It, They Will Come * sorry, i'm blanking the title * the baseball diamond in a cornfield movie
>
>
> (sorry if this has been mentioned, i've missed some posts)
>

That's _Field of Dreams_.

--
Alice Faber


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Feb 21 19:23:59 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:23:59 -0500
Subject: Singular "yez"?
In-Reply-To: <s1bd5745.099@spartacus.salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.142359.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've been looking back at the "yez/y'all" thread we spun in mid-December
and, at the risk of being redundant, I've picked out a few messages that
seem to tie up loose ends re. this singular/plural issue.  The recognition
that a core Deep South usage may change in its fringe or boundary areas
seems to me important.  Thus West Texas is not East Texas, and maybe
Tennessee and Kentucky (and southern Ohio) exhibit, and tolerate, more
singular "y'all" use than the South does.  And I'm not considering "frozen
idioms" here, of the "Y'all come back soon" variety.

The singular "yez/ye" issue is similar.  I had said I heard Ralph Stanley
use singular "ye," and someone else reported singular "yez" vs. plural
"youse" (in Irish English and in Irish-immigrant areas in America.  The
same might happen with "y'uns/yinz," though I haven't heard these used in
the singular.

I'll listen closely to Ralph Stanley when he comes to Athens in a couple of
weeks (with the Clinch Mt. Boys) and get back to you all!  (That's my
personal, and very comfortable, accommodation to the plural usage, btw.)

Beverly Flanigan
Ohio University

At 11:47 AM 12/13/2004, you wrote:
>I cannot supply anything in print, but I went to grad school with a gal
>from Kentucky (does that disqualify her from being a "genuine
>Southern-speaker"?) who claimed she used y'all as a singular and 'all
>y'all' as the plural (or does that fact that she uses "y'all" as a
>singular disqualify her from being a genuine Southern-speaker?).  I've
>always been amused at the discussions about singular 'y'all' on this list
>and elsewhere.  Most southeners claim that y'll cannot be singular.  But
>they seem to consider only their own dialect, or even idiolect, but not
>the fact that for other people or dialects the case might be different.
>Fritz J
>
> >>> wilson.gray at RCN.COM 12/10/04 07:58PM >>>
>On Dec 10, 2004, at 12:41 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> > Subject:      Re: Singular "yez"?
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> >
> > At 11:21 AM -0500 12/10/04, Alice Faber wrote:
> >>> From a posting in alt.folklore.urban:
> >>
> >>> In the Philly area (I am a recent immigrant) I swear that
> >>> there is a singular pronoun "yez". My family thinks I'm
> >>> hallucinating, or that maybe it's the Brooklynese "youse".
> >>> Neither is true. "Youse" is plural and is quite distinct
> >>> from what I'm hearing, e.g. "would yez like some coffee?"
> >>> AM I hallucinating?
> >>
> >>
> > Wonder if this is the same phenomenon as singular y'all, much
> > discussed here.  As I recall, there was no consensus on whether
> > so-called singular y'all generally involves an implicit reference to
> > others in some contextually understood set to which the singular
> > addressee belongs (e.g. 'you and your family', 'you and the horse you
> > came in with') or whether there's a regional and social
> > differentiation on this.
> >
> > Larry
> >
>
>Can someone supply some examples in which a genuine Southern-speaker or
>a BE speaker uses "y'all"/"you-all" as a singular? I've heard and read
>since the '40's, at least that, y'all/you-all can be used as a
>second-person singular. I have never heard such a use from any white
>Southerners or from any black  person. But I'm willing to grant that
>that could be mere happenstance.
>
>-Wilson Gray


From JIMSMUSE at COMCAST.NET  Mon Feb 21 19:35:42 2005
From: JIMSMUSE at COMCAST.NET (Your Name)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:35:42 +0000
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.193542.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How right you are about the huge regional differences in accent/dialect even in a country as small as Scotland...and how easily I forget that while I avidly read this list because I love words, I am an amateur among word professionals!

I've learned some wonderful things from you all, and appreciate this list a great deal.   "Y'all" are great teachers!

Carrie Lowery
jimsmuse at comcast.net


-------------- Original message --------------

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: Dialects in film
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There are several Scottish dialects / accents. To Scots, Glaswegians, for
> example, sound "nothing like" Aberdonians.
>
> JL
> Your Name wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Your Name
> Subject: Re: Dialects in film
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned "Coal Miner's Daughter" during this
> discussion of movie dialects. Every time I see it I am amazed all over again at
> the consistency of Sissy Spacek's speech in the movie.
>
> Then again, I do know that familiarity with a native speaker can make all the
> difference. I thought Mel Gibson's Scots in "Braveheart" was fairly believeable,
> until I had occasion to have a Scottish house-guest for a month. After 3 weeks
> of the visit, we sat down to watch "Braveheart" together and I was amazed at the
> difference in my perception of Mel's attempt at an authentic burr after spending
> time with a Scottish native. Two years later (and after spending extended time
> in Scotland), I almost cannot bear to watch the movie because the accents sound
> so awful, and I'm guessing there may be some folks from Loretta Lynn's hometown
> of Butcher Holler that find "Coal Miner's Daughter" just as difficult to
> endure...
>
> Other movies that occur to me in fun are "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure"
> and "Valley Girl", both of which contain a California dialect that is "fer
> shure" different than what we speak here on the East Coast, and both of which
> added a few phrases to the popular speech of the day.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Carrie Lowery
> jimsmuse at comcast.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: James Smith
> > Subject: Re: Dialects in film
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I'm from the Rocky Mountains, and I found it
> > appalling!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> >
> > > I understand that Dick Van Dyke's Cockney in "Mary
> > > Poppins" is regarded as appalling by many English
> > > people.
> > >
> > > In fact, most stars before the age of intensive
> > > dialect coaching just muddled through "dialect"
> > > roles. Kevin Costner (CA) was ridiculed for his
> > > "Hyannisport" accent in "Fourteen Days," but to a
> > > geezer saturated in the JFK era, he seemed OK.
> > >
> > > Gwyneth Paltrow (CA / MA) as "Emma" ? She sure
> > > fooled me !
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > > "Patti J. Kurtz" wrote:
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > > header -----------------------
> > > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > Poster: "Patti J. Kurtz"
> > > Subject: Dialects in film
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Hi everyone. We've discussed films in which language
> > > features
> > > prominently (esp. sci fi), but what I'm trying to
> > > compile is a list of
> > > films in which the characters speak in dialects.
> > > (for example,
> > > "Fargo") for my dialects class. I'd like names of
> > > both films that
> > > represent regional or ethnic dialects accurately and
> > > those that don't,
> > > since we're going to talk about dialects in the
> > > media at some point. I
> > > can think of a few, but I'll bet some of you can
> > > think of more. And I'm
> > > thinking more of movies (fictional) rather than
> > > films like "American
> > > Tongues."
> > >
> > > Any help you can provide is greatly appreciated by
> > > me and by my
> > > students, who are enjoying the course a lot!
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > >
> > > Patti Kurtz
> > > Minot State University
> > > --
> > >
> > > Freeman - And what drives you on, fighting the
> > > monster?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Straker - I don't know, something inside me I guess.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Freeman - It's called dedication.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Straker - Pig-headedness would be nearer.
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > > protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> >
> >
> > =====
> > James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything
> > South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued
> > jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively
> > |or slowly and cautiously.
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
> > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Feb 21 19:35:29 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 14:35:29 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <20050220232538.91109.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.143529.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

One more comment on the following comment:  I hesitate to call
"yinz/y'all/youse" use "lower register" or "working class" (as someone else
said with reference to "y'allses").  These may well be such ordinary and
widespread indicators of regional usage that they transcend both class and
register distinctions.  A former student of mine, from a wealthy urban
family, used "y'allses" with no self-consciousness at all.  Just a
cautionary note on labeling usage that's a marker to outsiders as marked
for register and class (or education or age) within a particular region.


>"Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
>Subject: Re: "Y'all" redux
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >Would somebody please post a reference to a seemingly intelligent printed
> >source - or any source - that confidently asserts that Southerners address
> >individuals as "y'all"? It would be nice if the source was more recent
> >than, say, 1930, but I'll take anything. It would be good to know exactly
> >what it is that is being defended against.
>
>Crystal's recent book does assert that Fort Worthers (or is it "Worthians"
>or "Forteans"?) do this. The first example he encountered (IIRC) was from
>the clerk or storekeeper where he went to buy a Stetson hat. I wasn't there
>and I've never seen Crystal or heard him speak, but one thing which tends
>to be near a Texas hotel in my limited experience is a store selling
>Stetsons, tooled boots, etc. to tourists from such places as London, Tokyo,
>and Chicago. With clerks necessarily quite conscious of their Texan-ness
>(or is that "Texianity"?). Crystal does recount other examples of singular
>"y'all", but again there is reason to suspect that some may put on this
>sort of thing for the furriners.
>
>What is the opposite of "hypercorrection" again? I live in Pittsburgh. Many
>Pittsburghers use "you-uns"/"yinz" as the plural of "you", some don't, but
>essentially everybody knows that the 'correct' or 'standard' version is
>"you" [pl.]. So "yinz" is either lower-register or explicitly-local. In
>order to sound even more homey/slangy/explicitly-local one might go one
>step further and put "yinz" for every instance of "you", singular or
>plural. I'm sure I've encountered this, although not often. The same might
>occur elsewhere, IMHO, with "y'all", for example, or "youse", in US or UK.
>
>-- Doug Wilson


From morzinsk.mary at UWLAX.EDU  Mon Feb 21 23:03:42 2005
From: morzinsk.mary at UWLAX.EDU (Morzinski Mary E)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:03:42 -0600
Subject: Call for papers
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.170342.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is a nearly last call for papers on any aspect of language
variation to be presented at the ADS meeting at the Rocky Mountain
Modern Language Association in Coeur d'Alene, ID, October 20-22, 2005.
Please send abstracts by March 1 to Mary Morzinski

Dept. of English UW-L

La Crosse, WI 54601

morzinsk.mary at uwlax.edu

608-785-8300


From rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM  Mon Feb 21 23:15:47 2005
From: rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM (Ray Villegas)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:15:47 -0700
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <022120051935.17433.421A380E0004CB03000044192200763704BAACAAB3ACB3B7B6@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.161547.0700.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20050221/9108d79f/attachment.htm>

From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 21 23:31:29 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 15:31:29 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.153129.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Have been informed that at least some Brits think Renee's English accent was so bad "it almost ruined the movie" !  Who knows ?

Colin Ferrell's American accent in "Tigerland" was absolutely credible to me.  Don't know how he does with Ancient Macedonian, though.

JL

Ray Villegas <rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Ray Villegas
Subject: Re: Dialects in film
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Colin Ferral, from Dublin, Ireland, does a great job in "Phone Booth." He does a New York City accent. In some of Colin's movies he goes in and out of his Irish accent but for the most part he stays in character.


Brad Pitt didn't have a full accent in Troy but it was one that "colored" his lines. It was enough to fool people that wouldn't be accostumed to hearing a lot of accents.


Also Brad Pitt in "Snatch" immitates an Irish Pikey Accent. He does a good job in speaking quickly and making you feel confused. It almost sounds a little forced but he carries it enough to get through the part.


Billy Elliot has English, Irish, and Scottish actors that do North East England Accent. This is a fun movie to hear different ways of using the words "like" and "then" and other socialinguistic words.


"MatchMaker" is fun to watch to hear the Southern Ireland Accent. Most of the actors are from Ireland.


In "Gangs of New York" Leonardo DeCarpio goes in and out of the Irish accent. It was the worst performance of an accent that I've heard in awhile. His collegues Henry Thomas (played the boy in ET) and Daniel Day Lewis were superb in their accents. Daniel Day Lewis is from Ireland and did an 1800 New York City Accent and Henry Thomas did an Irish accent.


Nicole Kidman, Jude Law and Rene Zellweger are very believable in a lot of movies they do. All three were in Cold Mountain and were able to come across quite Southern. You don't realize how strong of an Australian accent Nicole has until you hear her in an interview.


I have tons more but I am drawing a blank. I hope this helps.


Ray Villegas
Arizona State University






"Music is the language of the spirit. It opens the secret of life bringing peace, abolishing strife." --Kahlil Gibran







---------------------------------
Find files on your PC instantly with the new MSN Toolbar Suite beta ? FREE!


---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Feb 21 23:59:51 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 18:59:51 -0500
Subject: dialects in movies
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.185951.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Don't forget "The Harder They Come" (Jamaican English, so basilectal the
first third of the movie has subtitles) and of course "My Fair Lady" (for
SBE and Cockney).


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Feb 21 23:56:09 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 18:56:09 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <20050221233129.35442.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.185609.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It should be noted that Renee Zellweger (in "Cold Mountain," not whatever
that ditzy English movie and its sequel were called) and Jude Law were
supposed to sound Southern Mountain, while Nicole Kidman was the genteel
Charleston-born lady.  So they represent Deep South vs. Mountain, not just
Southern.

And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or Trojan?! (I never saw the
movie, thankfully!)

At 06:31 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote:
>Have been informed that at least some Brits think Renee's English accent
>was so bad "it almost ruined the movie" !  Who knows ?
>
>Colin Ferrell's American accent in "Tigerland" was absolutely credible to
>me.  Don't know how he does with Ancient Macedonian, though.
>
>JL
>
>Ray Villegas <rayrocky7 at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Ray Villegas
>Subject: Re: Dialects in film
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Colin Ferral, from Dublin, Ireland, does a great job in "Phone Booth." He
>does a New York City accent. In some of Colin's movies he goes in and out
>of his Irish accent but for the most part he stays in character.
>
>
>Brad Pitt didn't have a full accent in "Troy" but it was one that
>"colored" his lines. It was enough to fool people that wouldn't be
>accostumed to hearing a lot of accents.
>
>
>Also Brad Pitt in "Snatch" immitates an Irish Pikey Accent. He does a good
>job in speaking quickly and making you feel confused. It almost sounds a
>little forced but he carries it enough to get through the part.
>
>
>"Billy Elliot" has English, Irish, and Scottish actors that do North East
>England Accent. This is a fun movie to hear different ways of using the
>words "like" and "then" and other socialinguistic words.
>
>
>"MatchMaker" is fun to watch to hear the Southern Ireland Accent. Most of
>the actors are from Ireland.
>
>
>In "Gangs of New York" Leonardo DeCarpio goes in and out of the Irish
>accent. It was the worst performance of an accent that I've heard in
>awhile. His collegues Henry Thomas (played the boy in ET) and Daniel Day
>Lewis were superb in their accents. Daniel Day Lewis is from Ireland and
>did an 1800 New York City Accent and Henry Thomas did an Irish accent.
>
>
>Nicole Kidman, Jude Law and Rene Zellweger are very believable in a lot of
>movies they do. All three were in Cold Mountain and were able to come
>across quite Southern. You don't realize how strong of an Australian
>accent Nicole has until you hear her in an interview.
>
>
>I have tons more but I am drawing a blank. I hope this helps.
>
>
>Ray Villegas
>Arizona State University
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"Music is the language of the spirit. It opens the secret of life bringing
>peace, abolishing strife." --Kahlil Gibran
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Find files on your PC instantly with the new MSN Toolbar Suite beta ? FREE!
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 00:23:58 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:23:58 -0800
Subject: illegitament
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.162358.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A Google search - don't ask why - turns up well over 600 exx. of "illegitament."

Other spellings are possible.

JL

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 00:30:14 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 16:30:14 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.163014.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Both Kidman and Zellwegger sesounded OK in "Cold Mountain," but maybe I'm too liberal a judge.

JL

Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Beverly Flanigan
Subject: Re: Dialects in film
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It should be noted that Renee Zellweger (in "Cold Mountain," not whatever
that ditzy English movie and its sequel were called) and Jude Law were
supposed to sound Southern Mountain, while Nicole Kidman was the genteel
Charleston-born lady. So they represent Deep South vs. Mountain, not just
Southern.

And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or Trojan?! (I never saw the
movie, thankfully!)

At 06:31 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote:
>Have been informed that at least some Brits think Renee's English accent
>was so bad "it almost ruined the movie" ! Who knows ?
>
>Colin Ferrell's American accent in "Tigerland" was absolutely credible to
>me. Don't know how he does with Ancient Macedonian, though.
>
>JL
>
>Ray Villegas wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Ray Villegas
>Subject: Re: Dialects in film
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>Colin Ferral, from Dublin, Ireland, does a great job in "Phone Booth." He
>does a New York City accent. In some of Colin's movies he goes in and out
>of his Irish accent but for the most part he stays in character.
>
>
>Brad Pitt didn't have a full accent in "Troy" but it was one that
>"colored" his lines. It was enough to fool people that wouldn't be
>accostumed to hearing a lot of accents.
>
>
>Also Brad Pitt in "Snatch" immitates an Irish Pikey Accent. He does a good
>job in speaking quickly and making you feel confused. It almost sounds a
>little forced but he carries it enough to get through the part.
>
>
>"Billy Elliot" has English, Irish, and Scottish actors that do North East
>England Accent. This is a fun movie to hear different ways of using the
>words "like" and "then" and other socialinguistic words.
>
>
>"MatchMaker" is fun to watch to hear the Southern Ireland Accent. Most of
>the actors are from Ireland.
>
>
>In "Gangs of New York" Leonardo DeCarpio goes in and out of the Irish
>accent. It was the worst performance of an accent that I've heard in
>awhile. His collegues Henry Thomas (played the boy in ET) and Daniel Day
>Lewis were superb in their accents. Daniel Day Lewis is from Ireland and
>did an 1800 New York City Accent and Henry Thomas did an Irish accent.
>
>
>Nicole Kidman, Jude Law and Rene Zellweger are very believable in a lot of
>movies they do. All three were in Cold Mountain and were able to come
>across quite Southern. You don't realize how strong of an Australian
>accent Nicole has until you hear her in an interview.
>
>
>I have tons more but I am drawing a blank. I hope this helps.
>
>
>Ray Villegas
>Arizona State University
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"Music is the language of the spirit. It opens the secret of life bringing
>peace, abolishing strife." --Kahlil Gibran
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Find files on your PC instantly with the new MSN Toolbar Suite beta &shy; FREE!
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 00:53:37 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:53:37 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <20050222003014.26668.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.195337.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I agree with you--and I was particularly impressed by Jude Law.

At 07:30 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote:
>Both Kidman and Zellwegger sounded OK in "Cold Mountain," but maybe I'm
>too liberal a judge.
>
>JL
>
>Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Beverly Flanigan
>Subject: Re: Dialects in film
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>It should be noted that Renee Zellweger (in "Cold Mountain," not whatever
>that ditzy English movie and its sequel were called) and Jude Law were
>supposed to sound Southern Mountain, while Nicole Kidman was the genteel
>Charleston-born lady. So they represent Deep South vs. Mountain, not just
>Southern.
>
>And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or Trojan?! (I never saw the
>movie, thankfully!)
>
>At 06:31 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote:
> >Have been informed that at least some Brits think Renee's English accent
> >was so bad "it almost ruined the movie" ! Who knows ?
> >
> >Colin Ferrell's American accent in "Tigerland" was absolutely credible to
> >me. Don't know how he does with Ancient Macedonian, though.
> >
> >JL
> >
> >Ray Villegas wrote:
> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >-----------------------
> >Sender: American Dialect Society
> >Poster: Ray Villegas
> >Subject: Re: Dialects in film
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> >
> >
> >Colin Ferral, from Dublin, Ireland, does a great job in "Phone Booth." He
> >does a New York City accent. In some of Colin's movies he goes in and out
> >of his Irish accent but for the most part he stays in character.
> >
> >
> >Brad Pitt didn't have a full accent in "Troy" but it was one that
> >"colored" his lines. It was enough to fool people that wouldn't be
> >accostumed to hearing a lot of accents.
> >
> >
> >Also Brad Pitt in "Snatch" immitates an Irish Pikey Accent. He does a good
> >job in speaking quickly and making you feel confused. It almost sounds a
> >little forced but he carries it enough to get through the part.
> >
> >
> >"Billy Elliot" has English, Irish, and Scottish actors that do North East
> >England Accent. This is a fun movie to hear different ways of using the
> >words "like" and "then" and other socialinguistic words.
> >
> >
> >"MatchMaker" is fun to watch to hear the Southern Ireland Accent. Most of
> >the actors are from Ireland.
> >
> >
> >In "Gangs of New York" Leonardo DeCarpio goes in and out of the Irish
> >accent. It was the worst performance of an accent that I've heard in
> >awhile. His collegues Henry Thomas (played the boy in ET) and Daniel Day
> >Lewis were superb in their accents. Daniel Day Lewis is from Ireland and
> >did an 1800 New York City Accent and Henry Thomas did an Irish accent.
> >
> >
> >Nicole Kidman, Jude Law and Rene Zellweger are very believable in a lot of
> >movies they do. All three were in Cold Mountain and were able to come
> >across quite Southern. You don't realize how strong of an Australian
> >accent Nicole has until you hear her in an interview.
> >
> >
> >I have tons more but I am drawing a blank. I hope this helps.
> >
> >
> >Ray Villegas
> >Arizona State University
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >"Music is the language of the spirit. It opens the secret of life bringing
> >peace, abolishing strife." --Kahlil Gibran
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >Find files on your PC instantly with the new MSN Toolbar Suite beta
> &shy; FREE!
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA  Tue Feb 22 01:21:54 2005
From: thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA (Thomas Paikeday)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:21:54 -0500
Subject: illegitament
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.202154.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think "illegitament" does call for a linguistic explanation. Compare
mischievious (5,300), pronounciation (231,000), and wierd (1,580,000) which
are understandable.

T. M. P.
www.paikeday.net


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Lighter" <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:23 PM
Subject: illegitament


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      illegitament
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> A Google search - don't ask why - turns up well over 600 exx. of
> "illegitament."
>
> Other spellings are possible.
>
> JL
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 01:32:11 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 17:32:11 -0800
Subject: illegitament
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.173211.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Cf. "indiscriminate / ~minite" (805,000) and "indiscriminant / ~manent" (16,700) on Web alone.

JL

Thomas Paikeday <thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Thomas Paikeday
Subject: Re: illegitament
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think "illegitament" does call for a linguistic explanation. Compare
mischievious (5,300), pronounciation (231,000), and wierd (1,580,000) which
are understandable.

T. M. P.
www.paikeday.net


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Lighter"
To:
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:23 PM
Subject: illegitament


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: illegitament
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> A Google search - don't ask why - turns up well over 600 exx. of
> "illegitament."
>
> Other spellings are possible.
>
> JL
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From preston at MSU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 01:52:21 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 20:52:21 -0500
Subject: illegitament
In-Reply-To: <20050222013211.76363.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.205221.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A linguistic explanation is available. See David Stamp's "Why some
people live in the Uninted States." Must be in OSU Working Papers
somewhere.

dInIs



>Cf. "indiscriminate / ~minite" (805,000) and "indiscriminant /
>~manent" (16,700) on Web alone.
>
>JL
>
>Thomas Paikeday <thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Thomas Paikeday
>Subject: Re: illegitament
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I think "illegitament" does call for a linguistic explanation. Compare
>mischievious (5,300), pronounciation (231,000), and wierd (1,580,000) which
>are understandable.
>
>T. M. P.
>www.paikeday.net
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jonathan Lighter"
>To:
>Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:23 PM
>Subject: illegitament
>
>
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail
>>  header -----------------------
>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
>>  Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>  Subject: illegitament
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  A Google search - don't ask why - turns up well over 600 exx. of
>>  "illegitament."
>>
>>  Other spellings are possible.
>>
>>  JL
>>
>>  __________________________________________________
>>  Do You Yahoo!?
>>  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>  http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Tue Feb 22 02:24:46 2005
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:24:46 -0500
Subject: wile away
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.212446.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For some reason, it came to my attention only this day that writers use -
and have used - wile for while in the phrase "while away." I became aware
of the usage when I finally caught up on my newspaper reading and read my
Feb, 11 WSJ, seeing therein a sentence ending, " ... it is no more - or
less - impressive than the activities of Palm Beach 'society' matrons who
wile away their days planning charity balls and the like." Even after
checking the OED entry, I was surprised that I had encountered this in the
WSJ. Is it taking over?

Bethany


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb 22 02:25:23 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:25:23 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <E1D3HNg-00024m-02@mx04.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.212523.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Y'all house," with "y'all" interpreted as possessive would be standard
in Black English, if there was a standard version of that dialect.

-Wilson

On Feb 21, 2005, at 12:22 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Y'all" redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "y'all house" as possessive?  I've heard both "y'all's" and "y'allses"
> as
> possessive, but not "y'all."  Do you have "y'allses"?
>
> At 07:10 PM 2/19/2005, you wrote:
>> As a white  South Louisianian, I have never heard "Y'all" as a
>> singular
>> pronoun, but the use of "y'all's" and "y'all" as a possessive pronoun
>> is
>> used.(I passed by y'all's/ y'all house yesterday, but y'all weren't
>> home.)
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:45 PM
>> Subject: "Y'all" redux
>>
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
>> header -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>>> Subject:      "Y'all" redux
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -----
>> -----
>>>
>>> In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers
>>> could,
>>> would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
>>> posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
>>> Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
>>> agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
>>> his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
>>> use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that
>>> "y'all"
>>> *is* used as a singular.
>>>
>>> In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
>>> that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
>>> and Fort Worth.
>>>
>>> I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
>>> farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
>>> description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan
>>> area
>>> in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows
>>> that
>>> East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
>>> English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
>>> English.
>>>
>>> So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
>>> depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
>>> white.
>>>
>>> -Wilson Gray
>>>
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 02:30:30 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:30:30 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <BAY104-F40546D1E74DC2EA1AEAEB8FE610@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.213030.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:15 PM -0700 2/21/05, Ray Villegas wrote:
>
>Nicole Kidman, Jude Law and Rene Zellweger are very believable in a
>lot of movies they do. All three were in Cold Mountain and were able
>to come across quite Southern. You don't realize how strong of an
>Australian accent Nicole has until you hear her in an interview.
>
Indeed.  As it happens, I was just listening to her on the "extras"
CD accompanying Cold Mountain, in which she participated in a staged
reading of passages from the novel and other material, and in that
her accent was far less Southern than in the movie, but not at all
her native Australian (in which she spoke elsewhere on the CD, when
she was talking about her participating in the film, gratitude toward
the director and co-stars, etc.).  More like the accent she uses in
"Eyes Wide Shut" but with maybe a slight coloring of Southern.  Jude
Law used his standard British accent for the readings, or at least
his very nice reading from the Book of Job.

Larry


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb 22 02:35:35 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:35:35 -0500
Subject: A new phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <E1D3Hg7-00067t-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.213535.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

",,,, _feasible_ that our ancestors will laugh"?

-Wilson

On Feb 21, 2005, at 12:49 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: A new phenomenon?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Sorry that the madness overtook the method.  Google up "phenomenas"
> and find 11,300 on the Web alone.
>
> How long will science ignore this phenomena?  It's feasible that our
> ancestors will laugh.
>
> JL
>
> "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Peter A. McGraw"
>
> Subject: Re: A new phenomenon?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> --On Sunday, February 20, 2005 1:53 PM -0800 Jonathan Lighter
> wrote:
>
>> A quick check of Usenet news groups reveals 1,100 exx. of "these
>> phenomenon," 124 for "many phenomenon," and 29 for "number of
>> phenomenon."
>>
>> There are 5,020 for "phenomenons."
>
> "Phenomenons" and not "phenomenas"?! That's an astounding phenomena!
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> *****************************************************************
> Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon
> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 02:46:21 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 21:46:21 -0500
Subject: dialects in movies
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050221185816.02db0028@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.214621.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:59 PM -0500 2/21/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Don't forget "The Harder They Come" (Jamaican English, so basilectal the
>first third of the movie has subtitles)

ditto "Cool Running", the movie about the Jamaican bobsled team


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb 22 03:01:18 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:01:18 -0500
Subject: dialects in movies
In-Reply-To: <E1D3Nct-00066g-00@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.220118.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Harder They Come is one of my favorite movies. I've seen it dozens
of times. But it's always seemed to me that the subtitles are supplied
only in those cases in which the dialogue would have been understood in
any case: "Me stahp chase Ivan. Me staht chase *you*!" Bockside! ;-)

-Wilson


On Feb 21, 2005, at 6:59 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> Subject:      dialects in movies
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Don't forget "The Harder They Come" (Jamaican English, so basilectal
> the
> first third of the movie has subtitles) and of course "My Fair Lady"
> (for
> SBE and Cockney).
>


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 03:06:40 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:06:40 -0500
Subject: A new phenomenon?
In-Reply-To: <20050221174901.86605.qmail@web53903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.220640.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I suspect that it will be a brief phenomenon.  My guess is that the trail
blazed by memorandum will be the path to follow: memorandum; memoranda:
memorandums/memorandas: fugidaboudit: memos.  So: phenomenon/phenomena:
phenoms.  Google gives 40,900 hits for phenoms.  I'm still lamenting the
loss of fewer which has been replaced by less.  Phenoms is not reall English
anyway.  This usage stuff is all Greek to me.

Jim Stalker


Jonathan Lighter writes:

> Sorry that the madness overtook the method.  Google up "phenomenas" and find 11,300 on the Web alone.
>
> How long will science ignore this phenomena?  It's feasible that our ancestors will laugh.
>
> JL
>
> "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Peter A. McGraw"
>
> Subject: Re: A new phenomenon?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> --On Sunday, February 20, 2005 1:53 PM -0800 Jonathan Lighter
> wrote:
>
>> A quick check of Usenet news groups reveals 1,100 exx. of "these
>> phenomenon," 124 for "many phenomenon," and 29 for "number of phenomenon."
>>
>> There are 5,020 for "phenomenons."
>
> "Phenomenons" and not "phenomenas"?! That's an astounding phenomena!
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> *****************************************************************
> Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon
> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb 22 03:12:33 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 22:12:33 -0500
Subject: illegitament
In-Reply-To: <E1D3PDt-0004qO-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.221233.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

dInIs, I'd like to mention that I spent a goodly portion of my
childhood and youth in the Uninted States. In fact, I have relatives
and friends who still live there.

-Wilson

On Feb 21, 2005, at 8:52 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: illegitament
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> A linguistic explanation is available. See David Stamp's "Why some
> people live in the Uninted States." Must be in OSU Working Papers
> somewhere.
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
>> Cf. "indiscriminate / ~minite" (805,000) and "indiscriminant /
>> ~manent" (16,700) on Web alone.
>>
>> JL
>>
>> Thomas Paikeday <thomaspaikeday at SPRINT.CA> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Thomas Paikeday
>> Subject: Re: illegitament
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ---------
>>
>> I think "illegitament" does call for a linguistic explanation. Compare
>> mischievious (5,300), pronounciation (231,000), and wierd (1,580,000)
>> which
>> are understandable.
>>
>> T. M. P.
>> www.paikeday.net
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jonathan Lighter"
>> To:
>> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 7:23 PM
>> Subject: illegitament
>>
>>
>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>  header -----------------------
>>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>  Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>>  Subject: illegitament
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ----------
>>>
>>>  A Google search - don't ask why - turns up well over 600 exx. of
>>>  "illegitament."
>>>
>>>  Other spellings are possible.
>>>
>>>  JL
>>>
>>>  __________________________________________________
>>>  Do You Yahoo!?
>>>  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>>  http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
> Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African
> Languages
> A-740 Wells Hall
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824
> Phone: (517) 432-3099
> Fax: (517) 432-2736
> preston at msu.edu
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 03:39:37 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2005 19:39:37 -0800
Subject: A new phenomenon?
Message-ID: <MON.21.FEB.2005.193937.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Get with it, bro !  All us young dudes say "feasible" when we mean "plausible" !

You must not watch enough TV news !

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: A new phenomenon?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

",,,, _feasible_ that our ancestors will laugh"?

-Wilson

On Feb 21, 2005, at 12:49 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: A new phenomenon?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Sorry that the madness overtook the method. Google up "phenomenas"
> and find 11,300 on the Web alone.
>
> How long will science ignore this phenomena? It's feasible that our
> ancestors will laugh.
>
> JL
>
> "Peter A. McGraw"
wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Peter A. McGraw"
>
> Subject: Re: A new phenomenon?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> --On Sunday, February 20, 2005 1:53 PM -0800 Jonathan Lighter
> wrote:
>
>> A quick check of Usenet news groups reveals 1,100 exx. of "these
>> phenomenon," 124 for "many phenomenon," and 29 for "number of
>> phenomenon."
>>
>> There are 5,020 for "phenomenons."
>
> "Phenomenons" and not "phenomenas"?! That's an astounding phenomena!
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> *****************************************************************
> Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon
> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 05:14:15 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 00:14:15 -0500
Subject: Spaghetti Western (1967), Chili Western (1995)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.001415.0500.>

* spaghetti Western (OED2/MW11 1969)

Fred Shapiro already gave a 1968 antedating:
http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0412D&L=ads-l&P=R6797&m=26432

-----
1967 _Syracuse Herald Journal_ 11 Oct. 38/1 Lee Van Cleef is not at the
moment a name on the tips of millions of American tongues.  But it is
almost as familiar as pasta on Italian tongues here in Rome since the
release of what have come to be known as the spaghetti Westerns. (The
newest one now showing in America is "For a Few Dollars More.")
-----

OED's 1969 cite is from Mario Pei, who also gives "Sukiyaki Western" for
the Japanese equivalent.  I noticed another variation, "Chili Western", in
the Sunday Times:

     http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/20/movies/20ciuk.html
     New York Times, Feb. 20, 2005
     Chili westerns and movies about hookers and narcs dominated
     Mexican cinema during the 1980's and half of the 90's.

-----
1995 _Film Comment_ Nov/Dec (FindArticles) Of the bizarre series of what
Ripstein calls "Chili-Westerns," the most notable exponent was the
director Alberto Mariscal, who brought to them some of the same weird
atmosphere that David Lynch unleashed on Leave It to Beaver-land.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1069/is_n6_v31/ai_17934692/pg_3
-----

Surely there are earlier cites for "chili Western"-- online sources
suggest that the term was popularized in Mexico in the wake of the first
spaghetti westerns of the mid-'60s...

-----
http://www.mexicodesconocido.com.mx/english/cultura_y_sociedad/arte/detalle.cfm?idsec=14&idsub=57&idpag=1041
M?xico en el Tiempo # 38 september-october 2000
When the Spaghetti Westerns were made in Italy, Mexico didn?t waste any
time coming up with the Chili Western. These were mostly directed by Rub?n
Galindo and the score was always written by Gustavo C?sar Carri?n.
-----
http://www.febiofest.cz/11_en/detail_filmu.php?filmid=2004128
Febio Fest 2004
Arturo Ripstein is one of the best known Mexican directors of our time. He
got his start as a director?s assistant on Luis Bunuel?s film The
Exterminating Angel (1962). His directorial d?but came in 1965 with the
chili western Tiempo de morir, with a screenplay by Columbian writer
Gabriel Garc?a M?rquez - who was later to win the Nobel prize for
literature.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From niall113 at HOTMAIL.COM  Tue Feb 22 05:45:27 2005
From: niall113 at HOTMAIL.COM (ernest vivo)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 05:45:27 +0000
Subject: Call for papers: a tidbit
In-Reply-To: <MC1-F387h0webTCln3N000320a5@mc1-f38.hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.054527.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 06:04:45 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 01:04:45 -0500
Subject: 'walk of shame' origin?
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.010445.0500.>

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:41:03 +0000, neil <neil at TYPOG.CO.UK> wrote:

>'This was something I had vowed never to do, put myself in the hook-up
>position in someone's fraternity house. Because nothing's anonymous at this
>school, despite what you'd think from the size. A walk of shame the next
>morning would definitely make 34th Street [last 2 words italicised].'
>
>-Rachel Solar-Tuttle, 'number 6 fumbles', Pocket Books, NY, 2002, 39
>
>I understand the concept, but wondered if the origin is sexual or sporting,
>and would be interested to learn of it's earliest occurrence.

Military academies might be the ultimate source.  The earliest Nexis cite
is in a review of Pat Conroy's _Lords of Discipline_ (1980), a novel about
life at a Southern military academy:

-----
Washington Post, Oct 23, 1980, D1
When one of your [sc. Pat Conroy's] characters is expelled on an honor
violation and takes the Walk of Shame, it means that none of his
classmates will ever mention his name again.
...
"I like to ask questions. For example, I interviewed several former cadets
who underwent the Walk of Shame and similar military-school disciplinary
measures, and guess what? A lot of times their lives were ruined by it."
-----

Conroy's book is searchable on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0553381563/?v=search-inside&keywords=walk-of-shame

The earliest cite I've found for the sexual sense is from 1991:

-----
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=136085
Harvard Crimson, March 19, 1991
And at 5 a.m. on a Sunday morning, there's nothing better than a friendly
face to welcome you back home as you take your "walk of shame" past the BD
[sc. Bell's Desk].
-----

I'm pretty sure the expression was already in collegiate parlance by the
mid- to late '80s.


--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 07:29:23 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 02:29:23 -0500
Subject: So's your old man, Press the flesh, Give me five, etc. (1925)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.022923.0500.>

I recently discovered that the Harvard Crimson now has online archives all
the way back to the newspaper's founding in 1873.  The OCR is quite spotty
in places, and the original page images aren't given, but there's
definitely some good stuff in there.

For starters, here's an interesting piece from 1925:

-----
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=430182
The Harvard Crimson
Published on Friday, December 18, 1925

COLLEGE SLANG LOFTY IS CATLETT'S CLAIM
ORIGIN OF "SO'S YOUR OLD MAN" IS FINALLY DIVULGED

No writer attributed

"Most college slang goes a mile over the heads of the common run of
theatre goers," remarked Walter Catlett, comedian in "Lady, Be Good" as he
disentangled himself from a small boy costume, following last night's
performance at the Colonial Theatre.

"The expressions and terms which originate in the colleges and
universities as a rule have both the subtle, and the extremely ridiculous
elements which make good humor. They are, however, of too local a nature
to be appreciated by most audiences. The primary requirement of the stage
"wise crack" is that it be comprehensible to a majority of the listeners.

"Many a current slang phrase or expression is the creation of a dizzy
brain overheard and remembered by a clearer head. The streets of New York
between midnight and dawn, when the inebriates come sailing home, are
productive fields for the professional wise cracker," answered Mr. Catlett
when asked about the source of his humorous sayings.

American Negro Is Slang Producer

"Then there is the American Negro probably the most slang productive race
in the world. It was the Southern darky who first spoke of his tired and
aching feet as 'dogs'. This word has gone through a hundred stages of
development and its ramifications and embellishments are to be found in
the daily conversation of many people today. Slang is the effort to
economize in the use of words--to make a single one do the work of several
sentences--as well as to be funny.

"For example 'hot dog' or 'hot diggedy dog' the latter one of my own
expressions, are exclamations of joy which express more than could be
conveyed in half a dozen sentences."

Mr. Catlett, who first gained great popularity a few years ago in "Sally,"
when he played a comedy part along with Leon Errol, has invented a number
of widely used and expressive phrases Among them are "So's your old man,"
and "Press the flesh," "Give me five," and "Mitt me," the last three all
invitations to shake hands.

Italian Invented "So's Your--"

"The phrase 'So's your old man' came to me while in a rather an amusing
situation. It was at a benefit banquet and a group of actors, including
myself, were waiting on the tables. A little Italian buss boy volunteered
to explain to me my duties. The last sentence of his very broken and
totally unintelligible discourse sounded like some remarks about my 'old
man,' so I replied 'So is your old man' and the expression started. As you
can see the emphasis was, in its first use, on the third word."

-----


--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 07:37:22 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 02:37:22 -0500
Subject: nurdiness (1969)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.023722.0500.>

HDAS has "nurd" and "nurdy" back to 1960 (from the Yale Record), but
nothing for "nurdiness" (OED3 dates "nerdiness" to 1983).

-----
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=494792
The Harvard Crimson
Published on Tuesday, April 22, 1969

Davies, the third improved veteran, has what superficially appears an easy
task as Sir Joseph Porter, K.C.B.; he must consistently be a pompous nurd.
However, English nurdiness is not the easiest of qualities to maintain,
particularly for a Welshman, and his hysterically funny success in doing
so is certainly the strongest characterization in the entire cast.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 08:18:32 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 03:18:32 -0500
Subject: grind (1874)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.031832.0500.>

grind, n. 'an excessively diligent student' (HDAS a1889, OED2 1893)

-----
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=292517
The Harvard Crimson, January 09, 1874
The inveterate "grind" may pursue his favorite study all day long with no
interruption from noisy neighbors.
-----
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=302218
The Harvard Crimson, February 13, 1874
The student who studies only for marks, the conventional "grind," is one
of the poorest products of a college.
-----
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=280674
The Harvard Crimson, November 03, 1876
Now, a reflecting man would pronounce at once that such a state of opinion
ought not to exist in "the foremost college in America." He would question
whether the working man does not, after all, get the best of Harvard
culture, and whether the "grind," discountenancing, of course, a too
persistent and unhealthy devotion to study, is not, on the whole, more
worthy of admiration and respect than the "swell." I suspect that much of
our affected contempt for a "dig" is a result of indolence. It is very
convenient for a lazy man to express the opinion that "grinds" and
"grinding" are a bore, but such an opinion, he may be sure, won't in the
end be a paying one.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 10:42:32 2005
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 02:42:32 -0800
Subject: Give me five, etc. (1925)
In-Reply-To: <30838.69.142.143.59.1109057363.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.024232.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Was Walter Catlett black? I thought "give me five" (and probably "press the flesh") was a black-invented phrase.

Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU> wrote:Mr. Catlett, who first gained great popularity a few years ago in "Sally,"
when he played a comedy part along with Leon Errol, has invented a number
of widely used and expressive phrases Among them are "So's your old man,"
and "Press the flesh," "Give me five," and "Mitt me," the last three all
invitations to shake hands.




---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 12:25:59 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:25:59 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Yalie"
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.072559.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yalie (OED 1969)

1941 _Harvard Crimson_ 22 Nov. When we were much younger we had the
enlightening experience of reading a book about a Yalie named Frank
Merriwell.

Fred Shapiro


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 12:38:50 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:38:50 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Preppie"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502200821230.15869-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.073850.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

preppie, n. (OED 1970)

1956 _Harvard Crimson_ 29 Mar.  Eliot [House at Harvard] is crawling with
preppies.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 12:54:24 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:54:24 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Jock"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502220724130.11645-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.075424.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

jock (OED, jock5, 2., 1963; HDAS 1958 [citation contributed by me])

1957 _Harvard Crimson_ 22 Mar.  Despite its current appellation as the
"Jock" House, Winthrop remains one of the most versatile yet homogeneous
houses at Harvard.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 14:40:57 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:40:57 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Yalie"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502220724130.11645-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.094057.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:25 AM -0500 2/22/05, Fred Shapiro wrote:
>Yalie (OED 1969)
>
>1941 _Harvard Crimson_ 22 Nov. When we were much younger we had the
>enlightening experience of reading a book about a Yalie named Frank
>Merriwell.
>
>Fred Shapiro

Ouch.  Hard to imagine the credit for the first cite will end up
going to the Crimson, of all sources.  There *has* to be a New
Havenite antedate for this!  Was the Yale Record staff too busy
eating their hot dogs and tossing their frisbees to attest "Yalie"?
Or the Yale Daily News?  Sigh.

Larry


From jester at PANIX.COM  Tue Feb 22 14:45:01 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:45:01 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Yalie"
In-Reply-To: <p04320408be40f46ff4f1@[130.132.245.221]>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.094501.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, Feb 22, 2005 at 09:40:57AM -0500, Laurence Horn wrote:
>
> Ouch.  Hard to imagine the credit for the first cite will end up
> going to the Crimson, of all sources.  There *has* to be a New
> Havenite antedate for this!  Was the Yale Record staff too busy
> eating their hot dogs and tossing their frisbees to attest "Yalie"?
> Or the Yale Daily News?  Sigh.

Perhaps it was more common for members of the Other Body to be
discussing Yale than Yale discussing itself.

More likely, perhaps you should just get the YR folk to sit down
with the computer folk and say, "Yo, the Crimson is all over us!
You gotta get us online!"

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU  Tue Feb 22 15:11:35 2005
From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:11:35 -0600
Subject: dialects in movies
In-Reply-To: <200502220247.j1M2lG1m029377@bama.ua.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.091135.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And don't forget Rockers for Jamaican dialects. Shows interesting
dialect variation on the island. I use it in my intro to linguistics.
Has atrocious subtitles, but those provide for great discussion
regarding what kinds of decisions are made in depicting/translating the
film's dialogue for the audience.

My dissertation (http://bama.ua.edu/~rshuttle/Diss/PDF/Diss.pdf) focuses
on depictions of Southern English in novels and films, so I've watched a
pile of films that contain supposedly "Southern" English. I'll work on a
summary of what I've found and post it shortly.
Rachel

Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: dialects in movies
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 6:59 PM -0500 2/21/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>>Don't forget "The Harder They Come" (Jamaican English, so basilectal the
>>first third of the movie has subtitles)
>
>
> ditto "Cool Running", the movie about the Jamaican bobsled team

--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
University of Alabama Libraries
Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Feb 22 15:42:10 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 07:42:10 -0800
Subject: Fox "kits"?
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.074210.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Fox CUBS" ?  Never heard that.  I've known 'kit' all my life.  Is there an isogloss somewhere?
Fritz

>>> wilson.gray at RCN.COM 02/20/05 01:57PM >>>
In a newspaper article about the taming of foxes, the author referred
to what I know as fox "cubs" as fox "kits." Fox "kits"?! Why not fox
"pups"? There's a species of vulpine known as a "kit fox." Perhaps the
writer had that in mind.

-Wilson


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 15:45:40 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:45:40 -0500
Subject: dialects in movies
In-Reply-To: <421B4BA7.9040900@bama.ua.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.104540.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Please do, Rachel--I remember your very interesting talk at SECOL (or was
it LAVIS?)!

At 10:11 AM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>And don't forget Rockers for Jamaican dialects. Shows interesting
>dialect variation on the island. I use it in my intro to linguistics.
>Has atrocious subtitles, but those provide for great discussion
>regarding what kinds of decisions are made in depicting/translating the
>film's dialogue for the audience.
>
>My dissertation (http://bama.ua.edu/~rshuttle/Diss/PDF/Diss.pdf) focuses
>on depictions of Southern English in novels and films, so I've watched a
>pile of films that contain supposedly "Southern" English. I'll work on a
>summary of what I've found and post it shortly.
>Rachel
>
>Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>>Subject:      Re: dialects in movies
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>At 6:59 PM -0500 2/21/05, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>
>>>Don't forget "The Harder They Come" (Jamaican English, so basilectal the
>>>first third of the movie has subtitles)
>>
>>
>>ditto "Cool Running", the movie about the Jamaican bobsled team
>
>--
>~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
>
>Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
>CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
>University of Alabama Libraries
>Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
>Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
>rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu


From MajorsT at MSX.UMSL.EDU  Tue Feb 22 16:04:51 2005
From: MajorsT at MSX.UMSL.EDU (Majors, Tivoli)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:04:51 -0600
Subject: Dialects in the movies
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.100451.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Matt Damon's and Ben Affleck's Boston accent in Good Will Hunting is authentic. I think they are both from Boston -- I see Ben Affleck on TV coverage of many Red Sox games. Robin Williams' accent is not great in that film. I think his character was supposed to be from South Boston.

Tivoli


From MajorsT at MSX.UMSL.EDU  Tue Feb 22 16:13:19 2005
From: MajorsT at MSX.UMSL.EDU (Majors, Tivoli)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:13:19 -0600
Subject: y'all redux
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.101319.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm from Dallas so I thought I'd weigh in on the whole y'all thing. We used to argue about this in grad school at UT all the time. Generally, it was yankees who would say they heard y'all used in the singular. Us Texans would vehemently deny the possibiility. What I think may be going on is that when we southerners use y'all, it always has a plural intention, but may not seem to to outsiders. So if someone were to say to me "Did y'all enjoy that movie?" I would understand that to be addressed to me, anyone who saw the movie with me, and even anyone loosely affiliated with me. My assumption would not be that they meant me myself alone. In fact, I'd say that meaning is not allowable in my dialect. I can't speak for others, of course, but we Texans were generally in agreement on this point. None of us was from West Texas, but Ft. Worth is just a stone's throw from Dallas, so I'm still a little dubious.


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Feb 22 16:35:13 2005
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:35:13 -0500
Subject: Dialects in the movies
In-Reply-To: <2FC84732E041AB4FA4718514408A93130959FE@stl-mail4.stl.umsl.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.113513.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In John Sayles' "The Return of the Secaucus Seven," a character
whose name I've forgotten (the actress who plays her has dark
brown hair and has appeared in other Sayles films) does a wicked
imitation of what I think is supposed to be a Maine accent.  It
sounds very much like the dialect I used to hear as a kid in
northeastern Massachusetts.

Joanne Despres
Merriam-Webster


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Feb 22 16:37:20 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 08:37:20 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.083720.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/21/05 03:56PM >>>

And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or Trojan?! (I never saw the
movie, thankfully!)

How would anyone know? --What does (did) a Trojan sound like?


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Tue Feb 22 16:50:02 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 10:50:02 -0600
Subject: Dialects in the movies
In-Reply-To: <2FC84732E041AB4FA4718514408A93130959FE@stl-mail4.stl.umsl.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.105002.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Matt Damon's and Ben Affleck's Boston accent in Good Will Hunting is
>authentic. I think they are both from Boston -- I see Ben Affleck on
>TV coverage of many Red Sox games. Robin Williams' accent is not
>great in that film. I think his character was supposed to be from
>South Boston.
>
>Tivoli

A cousin of mine from the Boston area reported hearing Damon and
Affleck speaking Southie on SNL--and it took her a little while to
realize why this should be funny.

I am going to move this ever so slightly over to dialect on TV. There
was a short-run TV series called Cupid. I watched one episode--it was
filmed on the University of Chicago campus and the male love interest
of the week was a linguistics professor! (Of course, the show put
things where they ain't--a faculty dining room (no such beast) in the
Divinity School common room.) The female love interest of the week
was a waitress at the faculty dining room who sat in on one of his
lectures (for those of you who know the campus--in the large lecture
hall on the first floor of the Social Sciences building, rarely used
by linguists) and they ended up in a Higgins-Doolittle relationship.
Mind you, he never used the Language Labs! (of which I happen to be
the site manager). At some point, she accused him of trying to
reshape her speech in his image (which was bizarre, because I think
she first approached him about eradicating her Spanish accent) and he
went into a spiel about how his low class (Southie) accent had drawn
a lot of ridicule when he went to Harvard and about how he had
improved his accent to improve his social standing (or something like
that). He did most of that speech in "Southie". Well, I am not a
speaker of this dialect, but I lived north of Boston for all my
secondary years and it was awful!

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 17:05:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:05:00 -0800
Subject: Dialects in the movies
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.090500.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Speaking of John Sayles, "Matewan," set in rural W. Va., seemed to have very authentic accents.

JL

"Joanne M. Despres" <jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Joanne M. Despres"
Subject: Re: Dialects in the movies
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In John Sayles' "The Return of the Secaucus Seven," a character
whose name I've forgotten (the actress who plays her has dark
brown hair and has appeared in other Sayles films) does a wicked
imitation of what I think is supposed to be a Maine accent. It
sounds very much like the dialect I used to hear as a kid in
northeastern Massachusetts.

Joanne Despres
Merriam-Webster


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From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 17:06:34 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:06:34 -0500
Subject: Give me five, etc. (1925)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.120634.0500.>

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 02:42:32 -0800, Margaret Lee <mlee303 at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>
>Benjamin Zimmer <bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU> wrote:
>>Mr. Catlett, who first gained great popularity a few years ago in "Sally,"
>>when he played a comedy part along with Leon Errol, has invented a number
>>of widely used and expressive phrases Among them are "So's your old man,"
>>and "Press the flesh," "Give me five," and "Mitt me," the last three all
>>invitations to shake hands.
>
>Was Walter Catlett black? I thought "give me five" (and probably "press the
>flesh") was a black-invented phrase.

No, Catlett was definitely white.  You might remember him as a character
actor in his later film career-- he played various comedic roles in the
'30s and '40s, such as Constable Slocum in _Bringing Up Baby_ and the
stage manager in _Yankee Doodle Dandy_.  Here's a photo:

http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/j/Walter%20Catlett.jpg

Catlett did acknowledge in the article that he had taken many of his slang
terms from "the American Negro", so the Crimson reporter's claim that he
had "invented" these expressions is no doubt overstated.  The only one
that seems like it could have actually been coined (rather than
popularized) by Catlett is "So's your old man".


--Ben Zimmer


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 17:09:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:09:00 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.090900.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Doesn't matter - Achilles was from Phthia in Greece.

Brad sounded like a Californian, however.   For those familioar with "Zoolander," he did "Blue Steel" several times.

JL

FRITZ JUENGLING <juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING
Subject: Re: Dialects in film
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/21/05 03:56PM >>>

And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or Trojan?! (I never saw the
movie, thankfully!)

How would anyone know? --What does (did) a Trojan sound like?


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From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Feb 22 17:09:51 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:09:51 -0800
Subject: Dialects in the movies
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.090951.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How about these:
The Freshman  w/ Brando revisiting "duh Mob Boss" part.

Kidnapped  both the 1960 and 1995 versions.  The '60 version has James MacArthur (book 'em Danno) trying to pull off David Balfour's Scottish accent.  Silly.  The '95 version has Armand Assante (a New Yorker) doing a much better job as Alan Breck Stuart. Might be interesting to watch clips of both movies and compare them. (There is also a 1972-ish version with Michael Caine, but it's difficult to find and not very interesting)

Mary Tyler Moore (from the TV show)  trying to make us believe she's a Minneapolitan--rotten tomatoes!

Bob Crane on Hogan's Heroes: Hogan from Indiana?  No way.

My Fair Lady and the earlier Pygmalion with Leslie Howard (oh Ashley!).  Again, it might be interesting to compare the two.

What about the TV show that was out about 1970 with Bobby Sherman--Here Come the Brides? Does that speech bare any resemblance to present-day or early-PNW speech? Haven't seen that show in about 35 years.

Finally, there is a movie that is so bad that probably very few have seen it--Revolution with Al Pacino. He tries to play an American of Irish or Scottish descent, maybe he's even supposed to be from the Mother country--don't remember. Reviews have made much of his accent.  One reviewer even suggested that his accent was some sort of Proto North American.  Well, his mumbling sounds little better than Brando in the Godfather or the Freshman.  I don't think too many Italians helped shape Revolutionary American speech.  (Besides the fact that Pacino's accent is so hideous, the movie is beyond terrible. So, if you decide to watch it, you've been warned.) Donald Sutherland plays a British officer and sounds like he has a mouth full of rocks, so it's impossible to tell whether he can fake a Brit accent.

Gary Cooper ended up playing a Canadian in Lives of a Bengal Lancer.  Nifty little trick.
Fritz Juengling


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 17:24:17 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:24:17 -0800
Subject: Dialects in the movies
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.092417.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Much of what we've been saying here is insidiously subjective.  For example, I think Leo Gorcey sounded genuine, though his (apparently) natural accent was pretty uncommon by the 1960s - I believe.  Other New Yorkers claim that Gorcey sounded fake.  Huntz Hall is harder to comment on because, though he too came from a working-class background, his screen character required a more exaggerated delivery.  Phonologically, I think he was OK.

Have mentioned in another thread that my grandfather's accent was very similar to Archie Bunker's. Much younger New Yorkers, though, may feel that Archie was overdone.

The "worst" put-on accents may include those where the underlying "outsider" accent still comes through..

But you gotta be a dialectologist. And even then...

JL

Barbara Need <nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Barbara Need
Subject: Re: Dialects in the movies
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Matt Damon's and Ben Affleck's Boston accent in Good Will Hunting is
>authentic. I think they are both from Boston -- I see Ben Affleck on
>TV coverage of many Red Sox games. Robin Williams' accent is not
>great in that film. I think his character was supposed to be from
>South Boston.
>
>Tivoli

A cousin of mine from the Boston area reported hearing Damon and
Affleck speaking Southie on SNL--and it took her a little while to
realize why this should be funny.

I am going to move this ever so slightly over to dialect on TV. There
was a short-run TV series called Cupid. I watched one episode--it was
filmed on the University of Chicago campus and the male love interest
of the week was a linguistics professor! (Of course, the show put
things where they ain't--a faculty dining room (no such beast) in the
Divinity School common room.) The female love interest of the week
was a waitress at the faculty dining room who sat in on one of his
lectures (for those of you who know the campus--in the large lecture
hall on the first floor of the Social Sciences building, rarely used
by linguists) and they ended up in a Higgins-Doolittle relationship.
Mind you, he never used the Language Labs! (of which I happen to be
the site manager). At some point, she accused him of trying to
reshape her speech in his image (which was bizarre, because I think
she first approached him about eradicating her Spanish accent) and he
went into a spiel about how his low class (Southie) accent had drawn
a lot of ridicule when he went to Harvard and about how he had
improved his accent to improve his social standing (or something like
that). He did most of that speech in "Southie". Well, I am not a
speaker of this dialect, but I lived north of Boston for all my
secondary years and it was awful!

Barbara Need
UChicago--Linguistics


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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 17:28:23 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 09:28:23 -0800
Subject: Dialects in the movies
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.092823.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

To some extent this is all nitpicking. Bosley Crowther of The New York Times mocked "Paths of Glory," about  the French army in World War I,  because none of the actors used French accents !

I kid you not.

JL

FRITZ JUENGLING <juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: FRITZ JUENGLING
Subject: Re: Dialects in the movies
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How about these:
The Freshman w/ Brando revisiting "duh Mob Boss" part.

Kidnapped both the 1960 and 1995 versions. The '60 version has James MacArthur (book 'em Danno) trying to pull off David Balfour's Scottish accent. Silly. The '95 version has Armand Assante (a New Yorker) doing a much better job as Alan Breck Stuart. Might be interesting to watch clips of both movies and compare them. (There is also a 1972-ish version with Michael Caine, but it's difficult to find and not very interesting)

Mary Tyler Moore (from the TV show) trying to make us believe she's a Minneapolitan--rotten tomatoes!

Bob Crane on Hogan's Heroes: Hogan from Indiana? No way.

My Fair Lady and the earlier Pygmalion with Leslie Howard (oh Ashley!). Again, it might be interesting to compare the two.

What about the TV show that was out about 1970 with Bobby Sherman--Here Come the Brides? Does that speech bare any resemblance to present-day or early-PNW speech? Haven't seen that show in about 35 years.

Finally, there is a movie that is so bad that probably very few have seen it--Revolution with Al Pacino. He tries to play an American of Irish or Scottish descent, maybe he's even supposed to be from the Mother country--don't remember. Reviews have made much of his accent. One reviewer even suggested that his accent was some sort of Proto North American. Well, his mumbling sounds little better than Brando in the Godfather or the Freshman. I don't think too many Italians helped shape Revolutionary American speech. (Besides the fact that Pacino's accent is so hideous, the movie is beyond terrible. So, if you decide to watch it, you've been warned.) Donald Sutherland plays a British officer and sounds like he has a mouth full of rocks, so it's impossible to tell whether he can fake a Brit accent.

Gary Cooper ended up playing a Canadian in Lives of a Bengal Lancer. Nifty little trick.
Fritz Juengling

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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb 22 17:46:08 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:46:08 -0500
Subject: Fox "kits"?
In-Reply-To: <E1D3cBS-0003n2-00@mx07.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.124608.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Probably not. I learned fox "cub" in St. Louis, where foxes are - or,
perhaps, were, since I'm thinking of the '50's - as much an urban
animal as raccoons, skunks, coyotes, etc. elsewhere. It could well be
that the only people who referred to baby foxes as "cubs" were the kids
in my particular neighborhood.

My buddy and I once tried to catch a fox that was in his backyard.
Fortunately for us, the fox got away, since we were using our bare
hands. The stupidity of youth is amazing, when you look back on it.
When we told the rest of the guys about it, they thought we meant "fox"
as in "very attractive young woman." Much comical confusion ensued.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 22, 2005, at 10:42 AM, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       FRITZ JUENGLING <juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US>
> Subject:      Re: Fox "kits"?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Fox CUBS" ?  Never heard that.  I've known 'kit' all my life.  Is
> there an isogloss somewhere?
> Fritz
>
>>>> wilson.gray at RCN.COM 02/20/05 01:57PM >>>
> In a newspaper article about the taming of foxes, the author referred
> to what I know as fox "cubs" as fox "kits." Fox "kits"?! Why not fox
> "pups"? There's a species of vulpine known as a "kit fox." Perhaps the
> writer had that in mind.
>
> -Wilson
>


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 18:12:11 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:12:11 -0500
Subject: Singular y'all?
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.131211.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From a blog I regularly read, by a native Torontonian
<http://www.yarnharlot.ca/blog/archives/2005/02/22/the_wool_house_presents_2.html>.
Note the first paragraph:

"Welcome back y'all. (Or is that "y'alls" I can never figure that
out. I was in a "Waffle House" in Tennessee once and the lady who poured
my coffee said "Y'all want cream in that?" which confused me, since I
was alone. Clearly, "Y'all" must be the singular, which perplexingly
must mean that "y'alls" is the plural...right? Maybe this is something
else Laurie can tell us, since she's an English professor.)"

--
Alice Faber
Haskins Labs


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Tue Feb 22 18:22:49 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:22:49 -0500
Subject: Dialects in the movies
In-Reply-To: <E1D3dgR-0006ha-01@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.132249.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 22, 2005, at 11:50 AM, Barbara Need wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Barbara Need <nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Dialects in the movies
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> Matt Damon's and Ben Affleck's Boston accent in Good Will Hunting is
>> authentic. I think they are both from Boston -- I see Ben Affleck on
>> TV coverage of many Red Sox games. Robin Williams' accent is not
>> great in that film. I think his character was supposed to be from
>> South Boston.
>>
>> Tivoli
>
> A cousin of mine from the Boston area reported hearing Damon and
> Affleck speaking Southie on SNL--and it took her a little while to
> realize why this should be funny.

Needless to say, I'm only too familiar with that reaction. Your cousin
has my complete and utter sympathy, On the other hand, I must admit
that people speaking a not-from-around-here dialect do be sounding
right funny, if they can be understood at all. You just have to be
careful. A friend of mine once asked a group of Jamaicans what language
they were speaking and was caught completely off-guard by the answer:
"English." She was expecting to hear them answer "Yoruba" or "Twi" or
some such.

-Wilson Gray

>
> I am going to move this ever so slightly over to dialect on TV. There
> was a short-run TV series called Cupid. I watched one episode--it was
> filmed on the University of Chicago campus and the male love interest
> of the week was a linguistics professor! (Of course, the show put
> things where they ain't--a faculty dining room (no such beast) in the
> Divinity School common room.) The female love interest of the week
> was a waitress at the faculty dining room who sat in on one of his
> lectures (for those of you who know the campus--in the large lecture
> hall on the first floor of the Social Sciences building, rarely used
> by linguists) and they ended up in a Higgins-Doolittle relationship.
> Mind you, he never used the Language Labs! (of which I happen to be
> the site manager). At some point, she accused him of trying to
> reshape her speech in his image (which was bizarre, because I think
> she first approached him about eradicating her Spanish accent) and he
> went into a spiel about how his low class (Southie) accent had drawn
> a lot of ridicule when he went to Harvard and about how he had
> improved his accent to improve his social standing (or something like
> that). He did most of that speech in "Southie". Well, I am not a
> speaker of this dialect, but I lived north of Boston for all my
> secondary years and it was awful!
>
> Barbara Need
> UChicago--Linguistics
>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 18:36:39 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 13:36:39 -0500
Subject: hot diggedy dog (1921), peanuts and buggy ride (1922)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.133639.0500.>

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 02:29:23 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer
<bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU> wrote:

>http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=430182
>The Harvard Crimson
>Published on Friday, December 18, 1925
[...]
>"For example 'hot dog' or 'hot diggedy dog' the latter one of my own
>expressions, are exclamations of joy which express more than could be
>conveyed in half a dozen sentences." [Walter Catlett]

For the "hot dog" files?

* "hot diggity/diggety/diggedy dog" (HDAS 1923, OED2 1924)

-----
Atlanta Constitution, Nov 16, 1921, p. 8, col. 8
Bits of New York Life, by O.O. M'Intyre
As Walter Catlett chirps 'Hot-diggedy-dog!'
-----
Atlanta Constitution, Sep 12, 1922, p. 6, col. 4
Bits of Paris Life, by O.O. M'Intyre
And the Americans responded with "Hot--diggedy--dog" -- a phrase that has
been popularized here and amuses the Frenchmen.
-----
Iowa City Press Citizen, Oct 21, 1926, p. 8, col. 5
New York Day by Day, by O.O. McIntyre
[From N-archive -- Atlanta Constitution on Proquest only goes to 1925]
There are many claimants to the doubtful honor of introducing that
over-worked bit of slang "Thanks for the buggy ride." It really goes back
to our father's time but was revived on Broadway by Walter Catlett in
"Sally" when it opened at the New Amsterdam theater, in January, 1921.
His version was "Thanks for the peanuts and buggy ride" and it was thus
shortened. He was also the first to introduce "Don't be stupid!", which
about a year ago became "Don't be dull." And again he revived "Hot dog!"
-- his version being "Hot diggedy dog."
-----

OED2 has a different 1926 cite for "thanks for the buggy ride".  Here's a
1922 "peanuts and buggy ride" cite without an attribution to Catlett:

-----
Atlanta Constitution, Jan 25, 1922, p. 4, col. 5
Bits of New York Life, by O.O. M'Intyre
She was a little bored by it all, but tried to appear friendly, but when
she walked to her hotel with him and told him goodbye she could not
refrain from calling out: "Thanks for the peanuts and buggy ride."
-----

(I know Barry has looked through O.O. McIntyre's syndicated columns, but I
didn't see any of these in the archive.)


--Ben Zimmer


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Feb 22 19:13:43 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:13:43 -0800
Subject: "Y'all" redux
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.111343.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Really, I thought the EAST begins in Boise, Idaho, which is considerably further west than FT. Worth.
Fritz

>>> wilson.gray at RCN.COM 02/19/05 12:45PM >>>

In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth.
 whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
English.

-Wilson Gray


From jasonnorris at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 19:41:40 2005
From: jasonnorris at YAHOO.COM (Jason Norris)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:41:40 -0800
Subject: Singular y'all?
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.114140.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I grew up in the South. Y'all is definitely plural.

That's not to say you won't hear it used in a singular way, but perhaps that is due to a slight mental lapse rather than dialect variation.

In the example mentioned below, the tired server at Waffle House may have said, "Y'all" all day long. When she served the person sitting alone at the table, it could have simply been a slip. It has happened to me before -- just like that (not at Waffle House, though).

If y'all (or yall, as some spell it) is ever used consistently in a singular fashion, I've never heard it. Or it could be that's just how we talk in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.

Roll Tide, Y'all.

Jason



Alice Faber <faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Alice Faber
Organization: Haskins Laboratories
Subject: Singular y'all?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>From a blog I regularly read, by a native Torontonian
.
Note the first paragraph:

"Welcome back y'all. (Or is that "y'alls" I can never figure that
out. I was in a "Waffle House" in Tennessee once and the lady who poured
my coffee said "Y'all want cream in that?" which confused me, since I
was alone. Clearly, "Y'all" must be the singular, which perplexingly
must mean that "y'alls" is the plural...right? Maybe this is something
else Laurie can tell us, since she's an English professor.)"

--
Alice Faber
Haskins Labs


If we knew what we were doing,
it wouldn't be called research,
would it?

 -- Albert Einstein


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 19:51:14 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:51:14 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <cd957fe7d6314fc247d10b383f70e9f1@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.145114.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, zero possessive marking would make sense in Black English.  The
earlier example may or may not have been BE (I should have asked the writer).

At 09:25 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote:
>"Y'all house," with "y'all" interpreted as possessive would be standard
>in Black English, if there was a standard version of that dialect.
>
>-Wilson
>
>On Feb 21, 2005, at 12:22 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
>>Subject:      Re: "Y'all" redux
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>"y'all house" as possessive?  I've heard both "y'all's" and "y'allses"
>>as
>>possessive, but not "y'all."  Do you have "y'allses"?
>>
>>At 07:10 PM 2/19/2005, you wrote:
>>>As a white  South Louisianian, I have never heard "Y'all" as a
>>>singular
>>>pronoun, but the use of "y'all's" and "y'all" as a possessive pronoun
>>>is
>>>used.(I passed by y'all's/ y'all house yesterday, but y'all weren't
>>>home.)
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>>>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:45 PM
>>>Subject: "Y'all" redux
>>>
>>>
>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>header -----------------------
>>>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>>>>Subject:      "Y'all" redux
>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>-----
>>>-----
>>>>
>>>>In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers
>>>>could,
>>>>would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
>>>>posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
>>>>Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
>>>>agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal, in
>>>>his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of the
>>>>use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that
>>>>"y'all"
>>>>*is* used as a singular.
>>>>
>>>>In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I suggested
>>>>that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East Texas
>>>>and Fort Worth.
>>>>
>>>>I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never been
>>>>farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
>>>>description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan
>>>>area
>>>>in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows
>>>>that
>>>>East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
>>>>English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
>>>>English.
>>>>
>>>>So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that it
>>>>depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
>>>>white.
>>>>
>>>>-Wilson Gray


From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Tue Feb 22 20:07:05 2005
From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:07:05 -0000
Subject: Fox "kits"?
In-Reply-To: <s21ae264.043@spartacus.salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.200705.0000.>

Fritz Juengling wrote

> "Fox CUBS" ?  Never heard that.  I've known 'kit' all my life.  Is
> there an isogloss somewhere?

There's definitely a boundary down the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, since here
in the UK I've never heard anything except "cub" ...

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <wordseditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 20:02:58 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:02:58 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <s21aee07.063@spartacus.salkeiz.k12.or.us>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.150258.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was joking, obviously!  (Or maybe not--I've gotta learn to use those
smiley/winky faces.)

At 11:37 AM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
> >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/21/05 03:56PM >>>
>
>And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or Trojan?! (I never saw the
>movie, thankfully!)
>
>How would anyone know? --What does (did) a Trojan sound like?


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 20:04:17 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:04:17 -0500
Subject: Dialects in the movies
In-Reply-To: <20050222170501.34992.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.150417.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, thanks for reminding us of that very fine movie.

At 12:05 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>Speaking of John Sayles, "Matewan," set in rural W. Va., seemed to have
>very authentic accents.
>
>JL
>
>"Joanne M. Despres" <jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Joanne M. Despres"
>Subject: Re: Dialects in the movies
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>In John Sayles' "The Return of the Secaucus Seven," a character
>whose name I've forgotten (the actress who plays her has dark
>brown hair and has appeared in other Sayles films) does a wicked
>imitation of what I think is supposed to be a Maine accent. It
>sounds very much like the dialect I used to hear as a kid in
>northeastern Massachusetts.
>
>Joanne Despres
>Merriam-Webster
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 19:55:39 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:55:39 -0500
Subject: Singular y'all?
In-Reply-To: <20050222194141.59799.qmail@web51005.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.145539.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Once again, the South is a large and nebulous area.  But when you said
Tuscaloosa, I gotcha.    The same goes for the writer from Dallas, which is
probably close to "the fringe"? (I think Natalie Maynor used to make this
distinction between Mississippi and "the South.")


At 02:41 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>I grew up in the South. Y'all is definitely plural.
>
>That's not to say you won't hear it used in a singular way, but perhaps
>that is due to a slight mental lapse rather than dialect variation.
>
>In the example mentioned below, the tired server at Waffle House may have
>said, "Y'all" all day long. When she served the person sitting alone at
>the table, it could have simply been a slip. It has happened to me before
>-- just like that (not at Waffle House, though).
>
>If y'all (or yall, as some spell it) is ever used consistently in a
>singular fashion, I've never heard it. Or it could be that's just how we
>talk in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.
>
>Roll Tide, Y'all.
>
>Jason
>
>
>
>Alice Faber <faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Alice Faber
>Organization: Haskins Laboratories
>Subject: Singular y'all?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> From a blog I regularly read, by a native Torontonian
>..
>Note the first paragraph:
>
>"Welcome back y'all. (Or is that "y'alls" I can never figure that
>out. I was in a "Waffle House" in Tennessee once and the lady who poured
>my coffee said "Y'all want cream in that?" which confused me, since I
>was alone. Clearly, "Y'all" must be the singular, which perplexingly
>must mean that "y'alls" is the plural...right? Maybe this is something
>else Laurie can tell us, since she's an English professor.)"
>
>--
>Alice Faber
>Haskins Labs
>
>
>If we knew what we were doing,
>it wouldn't be called research,
>would it?
>
>  -- Albert Einstein


From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU  Tue Feb 22 20:22:06 2005
From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:22:06 -0600
Subject: Singular y'all?
In-Reply-To: <200502221950.j1MJo91n027173@bama.ua.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.142206.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I agree with you, Jason (and BTW, hey, man, how's it going at APR? Long
time, no see.).

I think that in some professions, particularly those where groups of two
or more persons are commonly addressed, a Southerner (at least an
Alabamian) can inadvertently say "y'all" to one person; I had to
self-correct y'all to you more than once when working as a hostess in a
restaurant in Tuscaloosa. I also know that "y'all" CAN be said to one
person, but referring to more than one, at least around here (as in Ron
Butter's 2001 article in AmSp). Please note that I am not EVEN trying to
refute any of the singular "y'all" cases found in Texas or Oklahoma.
Bailey and Tillery have done work on this, right (1998, also in AmSp)?
I've also been told by a native Oklahoman (sorry, no more details than
that) that he has heard and used "y'all" as singular. I responded with,
"As in, 'I love y'all's shirt'?" He said, "Yep."

On the possessive form, I say "y'all's," but the one that took the cake
in my book was "your all's" from a resident of Florida, native of New
Jersey, who is a y'all user.

Rachel

Jason Norris wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jason Norris <jasonnorris at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Singular y'all?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I grew up in the South. Y'all is definitely plural.
>
> That's not to say you won't hear it used in a singular way, but perhaps that is due to a slight mental lapse rather than dialect variation.
>
> In the example mentioned below, the tired server at Waffle House may have said, "Y'all" all day long. When she served the person sitting alone at the table, it could have simply been a slip. It has happened to me before -- just like that (not at Waffle House, though).
>
> If y'all (or yall, as some spell it) is ever used consistently in a singular fashion, I've never heard it. Or it could be that's just how we talk in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.
>
> Roll Tide, Y'all.
>
> Jason
>
>
>
> Alice Faber <faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Alice Faber
> Organization: Haskins Laboratories
> Subject: Singular y'all?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>>From a blog I regularly read, by a native Torontonian
> .
> Note the first paragraph:
>
> "Welcome back y'all. (Or is that "y'alls" I can never figure that
> out. I was in a "Waffle House" in Tennessee once and the lady who poured
> my coffee said "Y'all want cream in that?" which confused me, since I
> was alone. Clearly, "Y'all" must be the singular, which perplexingly
> must mean that "y'alls" is the plural...right? Maybe this is something
> else Laurie can tell us, since she's an English professor.)"
>
> --
> Alice Faber
> Haskins Labs
>
>
> If we knew what we were doing,
> it wouldn't be called research,
> would it?
>
>  -- Albert Einstein

--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
University of Alabama Libraries
Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 20:25:21 2005
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 12:25:21 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050222150221.03369b68@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.122521.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Let's not forget Cary Elwes in Mel Brooks' "Robin
Hood, Men in Tights".  Elwes says he's the Robin Hood
with the "English " accent, distinguishing himself
from Kevin Costner in "Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves".


--- Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:

> I was joking, obviously!  (Or maybe not--I've gotta
> learn to use those
> smiley/winky faces.)
>
> At 11:37 AM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
> > >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/21/05 03:56PM >>>
> >
> >And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or
> Trojan?! (I never saw the
> >movie, thankfully!)
> >
> >How would anyone know? --What does (did) a Trojan
> sound like?
>


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Tue Feb 22 20:28:51 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:28:51 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Call=20for=20papers:=20a=20?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?tidbit?=
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.152851.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/22/05 12:57:13 AM, niall113 at HOTMAIL.COM writes:


> Dear Mary, I am new to this language forum, but I'd like to suggest 
> cultural injustice of our tongue and one little known. The Phrase " oh, boy! " is 
> seemingly so innocent,but packs thousnads of years of bias and mysogeny behind 
> it. It actually comes from the practice of perfering a male child to the 
> lesser gender?- so called: as in authoress,actress, et al. Do you know that the 
> Chinese have a saying," Girls are like maggots in your rice. They will cost 
> you money."? Isn't life/language bizarre!!? all the best,? Chamae
> 

Oh, girl!


From jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM  Tue Feb 22 20:24:51 2005
From: jdespres at MERRIAM-WEBSTER.COM (Joanne M. Despres)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:24:51 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <20050222202521.57795.qmail@web50608.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.152451.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And, while we're on the subject of Mel Brooks, let's not forget the
"concierge" with the Brooklyn accent in "The Producers," who
complains at some length about the crazy Kraut's "boids."

Joanne

On 22 Feb 2005, at 12:25, James Smith wrote:

> Let's not forget Cary Elwes in Mel Brooks' "Robin
> Hood, Men in Tights".  Elwes says he's the Robin Hood
> with the "English " accent, distinguishing himself
> from Kevin Costner in "Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves".
>
>
> --- Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
>
> > I was joking, obviously!  (Or maybe not--I've gotta
> > learn to use those
> > smiley/winky faces.)
> >
> > At 11:37 AM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
> > > >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/21/05 03:56PM >>>
> > >
> > >And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or
> > Trojan?! (I never saw the
> > >movie, thankfully!)
> > >
> > >How would anyone know? --What does (did) a Trojan
> > sound like?
> >
>
>
> =====
> James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
> South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
> jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
>                                |or slowly and cautiously.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 20:39:06 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:39:06 -0500
Subject: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.153906.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from a contributor to a cancer survivors and caretakers support group:

"well, in the mist of all of this with [name of spouse with cancer] I
had fell and hit my head..."

Whether this was a typo for "in the midst of" or a reanalysis isn't
entirely knowable.  But since the "all of this" in the context refers
to the murky complexity of misdiagnoses, denial of coverage, etc.
etc., I suspect the "mist" is in fact a reanalysis/eggcorn.  (This is
the same writer who previously contributed "biospy" for "biopsy".)

Larry


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 21:31:42 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:31:42 -0500
Subject: guff (1880)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.163142.0500.>

For "guff", HDAS has 'insolent or impertinent talk' from 1879 and 'empty
talk, nonsense' from 1884.  These cites seem to lean a bit more towards
nonsense than insolence.


http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=338562
Harvard Crimson, Oct 29, 1880
This is rot.
You cannot
Get the flam.
You said damn.
And I swear
I can't bear
Any more
Such a bore.
Darn the fuss!
Hear me cuss.
"Right you are,"
Comes over your cigar.
That's enough, -
No more guff.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=322969
Harvard Crimson, Dec 21, 1880
GUFF.
I MET an old and learned man,
And asked him "What is 'guff'?
I've looked the word-books through and through,
And only met rebuff."
"You simple youth, you artless boy,"
He thus to me rejoined,
"I know not what this word can mean,
It must be newly coined."
I met a staid professor man,
And prayed him "What is guff?"
Quoth he, "I know not, though I've heard
It mentioned, sure enough."
I met a callow Harvard lad
And him my question told;
He smiled a quizzing, knowing smile,
And forthwith answered bold, -
"If you should say professors mark
By any scheme that's fair,
Or swore that Sever Hall is filled
By aught but frozen air;
"If you should hint you understood
The Rules and Regulations,
Or thought that voluntary were
The present recitations;
"Or knew when your Forensics came,
Or, what is better still,
Declared you never were hard up,
Or owed a single bill, -
"Why then, my friend, to all these things,
Which are but silly stuff, -
I'd straightway bid you hold your tongue
And leave off giving GUFF."


--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Feb 22 21:51:03 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:51:03 -0500
Subject: Dominican "vitamins" & "hot diggety dog" (1906, again)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.165103.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greetings from Casa de Campo in the Dominican Republic. There are several restaurants at the resort here, but they serve Italian, Chinese, Mexican, and Japanese food...Dominicans seem pretty sure that they'll have the next pope.

DOMINICAN COFFEE--served here. It just means that it comes from here, not like Mexican coffee (with Kahlua).

DOMINICAN ROLL--Tuna, avocado, plantain, shrimp.

VITAMIN A--Rum.
VITAMIN B--Beer.
VITAMIN C--Coke (soft drink).


HOT DIGGETY DOG--I found "hot diggety (dog)" in Winsor McCay's "Dreams of the Rarebit Fiend" in the NY Evening Telegram, 20 September 1906. I had spent several weeks going through all of McCay the old-fashioned way. I mentioned that here at least twice. No one remembers? No one checks the archives?

Some old Harvard stuff that I'd posted, revisited:

YOU CAN ALWAYS TELL A HARVARD MAN, BUT YOU CAN'T TELL HIM MUCH--
5 March 1921
I remember I was told before entering college--by a graduate of Brown, I think it was--that no man could go to Harvard and stay there four years without becoming a snob. This man, like Arthur Train, cited the choice maxim, "You can always tell a Harvard man, but you can't tell him anything," as proof of his allegation. As a neophyte I was considerably impressed by this statement, but managed somehow to reserve my judgment and entered the Freshman class in 1916. In all this time I had heard nothing of the high intellectual standards which prevail at Harvard; the most I knew of the University was its supremacy in athletics (there had been a football victory about that time, I believe).


GENTLEMAN'S GRADE--
>From news on Friday, January 14, 1910
EXAMINATIONS AND INTELLECTUAL REFORM.
In a few days the feverish rush of work that always precedes the semi-annual examinations will commence; with many men it is already under way. The disturbance that examinations make in the routine of life of the majority of undergraduates is a measure of the scholastic apathy that intervenes; a quietness barely broken by hour examinations, tests, and theses. Interests athletic and social pursued to the exclusion of the purely intellectual are responsible for the unpopularity of examinations, and for the sentiment, often felt if not expressed, that "C is a gentleman's grade."


OH RINEHART!--
6 January 1914
The Graduate Student probably expected that the epithet which he applied to the CRIMSON would excite the ire of this "long-faced periodical." But if he will take "Oh, pueri!" to Mr. Copeland and "This is college life, this is" to someone who saw the Follies, we are sure that he will discover that we cried out, not against the "wholesome youthfulness" of the resurrected Rinehart episode, but rather in that very spirit of toleration and amusement that he has himself assumed.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Feb 22 21:55:48 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:55:48 -0600
Subject: hot diggedy dog (1921)...[note: 1913 attestation]
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.155548.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry Popik sent a Dec. 25, 2003 ads-l message with a 1913 Fort Wayne Sentinel article on slang, which presents "hod dickety dog" as associated with Indianapolis. (parag. 2 of the article: "'Hod-Dickety-Dog' Is A New One That Comes from Indiana."). Barry's item is reprinted (+ glossary) in _Comments on Etymology_, March 2004, vol. 33, no. 6, pp. 6-9.

Gerald Cohen

> ----------
> From:         American Dialect Society on behalf of Benjamin Zimmer
> Reply To:     bgzimmer at rci.rutgers.edu
> Sent:         Tuesday, February 22, 2005 12:36 PM
> To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject:           hot diggedy dog (1921), peanuts and buggy ride (1922)
>
> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 02:29:23 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer
> <bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU> wrote:
>
        [snip]


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 22:01:31 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:01:31 -0500
Subject: mind-blow, n. (1968)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.170131.0500.>

mind-blow, n. (HDAS 1971; OED3 has it as a verb but not as a noun)

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=137331
1968 Harvard Crimson 1 Nov. He [sc. Alan Heimert] knows all the drug-age
neologisms and uses them with a purposeful heavyhandedness. A "mind blow"
that comes off his tongue awkwardly and belligerently, with quotations
marks around it, reminds him that he is not, after all, native to the
generation which minted the phrase.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=351331
1969 Harvard Crimson 17 Nov.  _Night_, the final play of the trilogy, is
in every way the third act of the evening. It is an answer to the chaotic
world depicted in the first two plays, a goodbye-to-all-that farewell to
the sixties. It is both devastating and exhilirating, and even bigger
mind-blow than _Morning_ or _Noon_.

(The latter article, "A Mindblow at the Loeb, A Farewell to the Sixties",
was written by Crimson film and theater critic Frank Rich!)


--Ben Zimmer


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Tue Feb 22 22:07:00 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:07:00 -0500
Subject: Ivy League (1920?)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.170700.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm sure Fred noticed this. The 1920 date seems way to early for this...It appears that only the articles are here, NOT the ads. So for hot dogs, grinders, jimmies, brownies, pizza, buffalo wings, we'll be a little off.


23 March 1920
Harvard Crimson
Harvard will now travel to Providence on Saturday to take on Brown for the Crimson's first Ivy League contest.

"We are looking at each game expecting them to be a good team," Corkery said.

"It's an Ivy League game, and it's great to beat B.C. and go in to this game with the momentum."


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 22:35:20 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:35:20 -0500
Subject: Ivy League (1920?)
In-Reply-To: <1352D2C8.51CAD912.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.173520.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> I'm sure Fred noticed this. The 1920 date seems way to early for
> this...

Must be a misdating.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Tue Feb 22 22:51:13 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:51:13 -0500
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.175113.0500.>

OED2 has "weenie" in the 'nerd' sense from 1963 and "wonk" from 1962.  I
believe Fred Shapiro has a 1954 cite for "wonk" from Time Magazine, though
I can't find it in the archive.


http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=489487
Harvard Crimson, October 18, 1955
Three articles billed by Holiday as "the most infuriating ever published"
probably will arouse little wrath when the magazine reaches Square
newsstands this morning.
Ostensibly an explanation of the "naturally superior" Ivy intellect for
people from west of the Alleghanies, the articles vary from a serious
appraisal of the Ivy League education to a less high-minded account of the
social life of Harvard "wonkies" and their Princeton and Yale
counterparts, "ayools" and "weenies."
Former CRIMSON editor John Sack '51, in a story titled "Ivy Social
Pastimes," sets down the tenets of "unwonkyism" and how he hopes he
attained it during his years in the College.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=499301
Harvard Crimson, October 06, 1956
At Yale, in fact, those slightly academically or socially unaccepted
students receive names such as "weenies" or "turkeys;" at Harvard they are
occasionally dubbed "wonks;" and even at Wellesley students are apt to
meet "Peter Pans."

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=157856
Harvard Crimson, August 08, 1957
"Ha! What a weenie," he sneered to the girl, giving a powerfully superior
smile in Vag's direction. ...
"Hmm, a weenie. Imagine that," Vag mused sadly as he drove down Mem Drive
toward Boston.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=118430
Harvard Crimson, September 27, 1957
Up at school it was always tacitly assumed that everyone should be getting
a liberal education, and those who were not doing so were either ignored,
or dubbed by some contemptuous term such as "wonk" or "weenie."


--Ben Zimmer


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 22:54:38 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:54:38 -0800
Subject: Singular y'all?
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.145438.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I too have heard pl. poss. "your-all's," but not more than a very few times. The speakers *seemed* to be Southerners.  Wish I could remember more.  (Goes for generally, too).

JL

Rachel Shuttlesworth <rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Rachel Shuttlesworth
Subject: Re: Singular y'all?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with you, Jason (and BTW, hey, man, how's it going at APR? Long
time, no see.).

I think that in some professions, particularly those where groups of two
or more persons are commonly addressed, a Southerner (at least an
Alabamian) can inadvertently say "y'all" to one person; I had to
self-correct y'all to you more than once when working as a hostess in a
restaurant in Tuscaloosa. I also know that "y'all" CAN be said to one
person, but referring to more than one, at least around here (as in Ron
Butter's 2001 article in AmSp). Please note that I am not EVEN trying to
refute any of the singular "y'all" cases found in Texas or Oklahoma.
Bailey and Tillery have done work on this, right (1998, also in AmSp)?
I've also been told by a native Oklahoman (sorry, no more details than
that) that he has heard and used "y'all" as singular. I responded with,
"As in, 'I love y'all's shirt'?" He said, "Yep."

On the possessive form, I say "y'all's," but the one that took the cake
in my book was "your all's" from a resident of Florida, native of New
Jersey, who is a y'all user.

Rachel

Jason Norris wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jason Norris
> Subject: Re: Singular y'all?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I grew up in the South. Y'all is definitely plural.
>
> That's not to say you won't hear it used in a singular way, but perhaps that is due to a slight mental lapse rather than dialect variation.
>
> In the example mentioned below, the tired server at Waffle House may have said, "Y'all" all day long. When she served the person sitting alone at the table, it could have simply been a slip. It has happened to me before -- just like that (not at Waffle House, though).
>
> If y'all (or yall, as some spell it) is ever used consistently in a singular fashion, I've never heard it. Or it could be that's just how we talk in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.
>
> Roll Tide, Y'all.
>
> Jason
>
>
>
> Alice Faber wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Alice Faber
> Organization: Haskins Laboratories
> Subject: Singular y'all?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>>From a blog I regularly read, by a native Torontonian
> .
> Note the first paragraph:
>
> "Welcome back y'all. (Or is that "y'alls" I can never figure that
> out. I was in a "Waffle House" in Tennessee once and the lady who poured
> my coffee said "Y'all want cream in that?" which confused me, since I
> was alone. Clearly, "Y'all" must be the singular, which perplexingly
> must mean that "y'alls" is the plural...right? Maybe this is something
> else Laurie can tell us, since she's an English professor.)"
>
> --
> Alice Faber
> Haskins Labs
>
>
> If we knew what we were doing,
> it wouldn't be called research,
> would it?
>
> -- Albert Einstein

--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
University of Alabama Libraries
Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu


---------------------------------
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From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Tue Feb 22 22:56:33 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:56:33 -0500
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
In-Reply-To: <200502222251.j1MMpIMn007468@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.175633.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Tue, 22 Feb 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> OED2 has "weenie" in the 'nerd' sense from 1963 and "wonk" from 1962.  I
> believe Fred Shapiro has a 1954 cite for "wonk" from Time Magazine, though
> I can't find it in the archive.

My longstanding theory that the terms "preppie," "jock," and "wonk" all
had their origins in a traditional tripartite division of Harvard students
seems to be holding up pretty well, although the earliest Harvard usage of
"wonk" is not quite as old as the oldest known citation.  Incidentally, I
saw somewhere that subscribers to Time get access to a historical archive
of that magazine...

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Tue Feb 22 23:02:16 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:02:16 -0800
Subject: Call for papers: a tidbit
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.150216.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Don't you mean "Oh child!"?

>>> RonButters at AOL.COM 02/22/05 12:28PM >>>
In a message dated 2/22/05 12:57:13 AM, niall113 at HOTMAIL.COM writes:


> Dear Mary, I am new to this language forum, but I'd like to suggest
> cultural injustice of our tongue and one little known. The Phrase " oh, boy! " is
> seemingly so innocent,but packs thousnads of years of bias and mysogeny behind
> it. It actually comes from the practice of perfering a male child to the
> lesser gender - so called: as in authoress,actress, et al. Do you know that the
> Chinese have a saying," Girls are like maggots in your rice. They will cost
> you money."? Isn't life/language bizarre!!  all the best,  Chamae
>

Oh, girl!


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 23:06:21 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:06:21 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.150621.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Re: Mel Brooks, Al Pacino:  Both of these guys are native New Yorkers with genuine accents, but to me they sound somewhat different.  It's not so much that Brooks grew up in Brooklyn and Pacino in the South Bronx (the idea of a "Brooklyn" vs. a "Bronx" or other borough-rooted accent is vastly overcredited), but second- or third-generation Jewish and Italian New Yorkers do frequently sound different - though maybe not to tourists.

Naturally I'm talking about "core" subdialects here. In a city of 7,000,000+  in the midst of an even huger "Tri-State Area," there is plenty of room for variation.

JL



James Smith <jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: James Smith
Subject: Re: Dialects in film
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's not forget Cary Elwes in Mel Brooks' "Robin
Hood, Men in Tights". Elwes says he's the Robin Hood
with the "English " accent, distinguishing himself
from Kevin Costner in "Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves".


--- Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> I was joking, obviously! (Or maybe not--I've gotta
> learn to use those
> smiley/winky faces.)
>
> At 11:37 AM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
> > >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/21/05 03:56PM >>>
> >
> >And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or
> Trojan?! (I never saw the
> >movie, thankfully!)
> >
> >How would anyone know? --What does (did) a Trojan
> sound like?
>


=====
James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively
|or slowly and cautiously.

__________________________________________________
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Tue Feb 22 23:12:44 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 15:12:44 -0800
Subject: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.151244.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"In the mist of life we are in death."

          --<OnlyRice>, "I was just thinking about  guard..," (Usenet:rec.arts.marching.colorguard), Aug. 14, 1997.

And elsewhere, no doubt.

JL
Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

from a contributor to a cancer survivors and caretakers support group:

"well, in the mist of all of this with [name of spouse with cancer] I
had fell and hit my head..."

Whether this was a typo for "in the midst of" or a reanalysis isn't
entirely knowable. But since the "all of this" in the context refers
to the murky complexity of misdiagnoses, denial of coverage, etc.
etc., I suspect the "mist" is in fact a reanalysis/eggcorn. (This is
the same writer who previously contributed "biospy" for "biopsy".)

Larry




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From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Tue Feb 22 23:19:51 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:19:51 -0600
Subject: Barry's spotting of 1906 "Hot diggetty!" and "Hot dog!"
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.171951.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Barry's earlier message is very valuable for indicating that the original expression "Hot (diggety) dog" might have referred to to clothing rather than sausages.
But when I look over the 1906 item he reproduces, I find "Hot diggety" and "Hot dog" but not the two put together in "Hot diggetty dog." No doubt this is a quibble, and "Hot diggetty dog" can be inferred from the two interjections actually used. Still, unless I've overlooked something, it's not there. Which leaves 1913 as the earliest attestation thus far spotted for "hot diggetty dog" (with "hot" spelled "hod"). That 1913 item, as I mentioned in an ads-l message earlier today, was also first spotted by Barry.

  Below my signoff is an excerpt from his earlier message, with 1906 "Hot diggetty!" and "Hot dog!"

Gerald Cohen

[1906 cartoon, presented by Barry in an earlier ads-l message]:
PANEL ONE:  MOTHER TO BARRETT:  BARRETT!  I WANT YOU!  I WANT YOU TO TRY ON A NEW PAIR OF TROUSERS I'VE BOUGHT FOR YOU.  COME IN!   PANEL TWO:  MOTHER:  MERCY!  YOU'RE AS TALL AS PAPA.  WELL, THEY FIT ALL RIGHT AND YOU MUST WEAR THEM, YOU ARE TOO BIG TO WEAR SHORT PANTS.   PANEL THREE:  MOTHER:  NOW, GO TO SCHOOL, BARRETT. AND BE A LITTLE GENTLEMAN, FOR YOU ARE A YOUNG MAN AND NOT A BOY.  DO YOU UNDERSTAND?   PANEL FOUR:  [Pants and legs starts growing in the next five panels.  The other children at school are amazed--B. Popik]  BARRETT:  HOD DIGGETTY.  THEY'RE SWELL!  HOT DOG!  JUST THE THING!  EH.  THEY FEEL GREAT!  HOT DIGGETTY!  WHEE! [snip]

> ----------
> From:         American Dialect Society on behalf of Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Reply To:     American Dialect Society
> Sent:         Tuesday, February 22, 2005 3:51 PM
> To:   ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject:           Dominican "vitamins" & "hot diggety dog" (1906, again)
>
> Greetings from Casa de Campo in the Dominican Republic.
        [snip]
> HOT DIGGETY DOG--I found "hot diggety (dog)" in Winsor McCay's "Dreams of the Rarebit Fiend" in the NY Evening Telegram, 20 September 1906. I had spent several weeks going through all of McCay the old-fashioned way. I mentioned that here at least twice. No one remembers? No one checks the archives?
>
[snip]


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 23:16:22 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:16:22 -0500
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <20050222230621.57558.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.181622.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The Jewish vs. Italian immigrant accent was noted by Labov 40 years ago.

At 06:06 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>Re: Mel Brooks, Al Pacino:  Both of these guys are native New Yorkers with
>genuine accents, but to me they sound somewhat different.  It's not so
>much that Brooks grew up in Brooklyn and Pacino in the South Bronx (the
>idea of a "Brooklyn" vs. a "Bronx" or other borough-rooted accent is
>vastly overcredited), but second- or third-generation Jewish and Italian
>New Yorkers do frequently sound different - though maybe not to tourists.
>
>Naturally I'm talking about "core" subdialects here. In a city of
>7,000,000+  in the midst of an even huger "Tri-State Area," there is
>plenty of room for variation.
>
>JL
>
>
>
>James Smith <jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: James Smith
>Subject: Re: Dialects in film
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Let's not forget Cary Elwes in Mel Brooks' "Robin
>Hood, Men in Tights". Elwes says he's the Robin Hood
>with the "English " accent, distinguishing himself
>from Kevin Costner in "Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves".
>
>
>--- Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
> > I was joking, obviously! (Or maybe not--I've gotta
> > learn to use those
> > smiley/winky faces.)
> >
> > At 11:37 AM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
> > > >>> flanigan at OHIOU.EDU 02/21/05 03:56PM >>>
> > >
> > >And was Brad Pitt supposed to sound Greek or
> > Trojan?! (I never saw the
> > >movie, thankfully!)
> > >
> > >How would anyone know? --What does (did) a Trojan
> > sound like?
> >
>
>
>=====
>James D. SMITH |If history teaches anything
>South SLC, UT |it is that we will be sued
>jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com |whether we act quickly and decisively
>|or slowly and cautiously.
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>__________________________________________________
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>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Tue Feb 22 23:10:16 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:10:16 -0500
Subject: Singular y'all?
In-Reply-To: <20050222225438.13125.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.181016.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Me too--from South Midlanders--but rarely.  Just today a new custodian
(local Athens County woman, about 50) used "youse" twice in a conversation
with me.  I think she meant plural, but I've already forgotten the context.

At 05:54 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>I too have heard pl. poss. "your-all's," but not more than a very few
>times. The speakers *seemed* to be Southerners.  Wish I could remember
>more.  (Goes for generally, too).
>
>JL
>
>Rachel Shuttlesworth <rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Rachel Shuttlesworth
>Subject: Re: Singular y'all?
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I agree with you, Jason (and BTW, hey, man, how's it going at APR? Long
>time, no see.).
>
>I think that in some professions, particularly those where groups of two
>or more persons are commonly addressed, a Southerner (at least an
>Alabamian) can inadvertently say "y'all" to one person; I had to
>self-correct y'all to you more than once when working as a hostess in a
>restaurant in Tuscaloosa. I also know that "y'all" CAN be said to one
>person, but referring to more than one, at least around here (as in Ron
>Butter's 2001 article in AmSp). Please note that I am not EVEN trying to
>refute any of the singular "y'all" cases found in Texas or Oklahoma.
>Bailey and Tillery have done work on this, right (1998, also in AmSp)?
>I've also been told by a native Oklahoman (sorry, no more details than
>that) that he has heard and used "y'all" as singular. I responded with,
>"As in, 'I love y'all's shirt'?" He said, "Yep."
>
>On the possessive form, I say "y'all's," but the one that took the cake
>in my book was "your all's" from a resident of Florida, native of New
>Jersey, who is a y'all user.
>
>Rachel
>
>Jason Norris wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Jason Norris
> > Subject: Re: Singular y'all?
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I grew up in the South. Y'all is definitely plural.
> >
> > That's not to say you won't hear it used in a singular way, but perhaps
> that is due to a slight mental lapse rather than dialect variation.
> >
> > In the example mentioned below, the tired server at Waffle House may
> have said, "Y'all" all day long. When she served the person sitting alone
> at the table, it could have simply been a slip. It has happened to me
> before -- just like that (not at Waffle House, though).
> >
> > If y'all (or yall, as some spell it) is ever used consistently in a
> singular fashion, I've never heard it. Or it could be that's just how we
> talk in Tuscaloosa, Alabama.
> >
> > Roll Tide, Y'all.
> >
> > Jason
> >
> >
> >
> > Alice Faber wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Alice Faber
> > Organization: Haskins Laboratories
> > Subject: Singular y'all?
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >>From a blog I regularly read, by a native Torontonian
> > .
> > Note the first paragraph:
> >
> > "Welcome back y'all. (Or is that "y'alls" I can never figure that
> > out. I was in a "Waffle House" in Tennessee once and the lady who poured
> > my coffee said "Y'all want cream in that?" which confused me, since I
> > was alone. Clearly, "Y'all" must be the singular, which perplexingly
> > must mean that "y'alls" is the plural...right? Maybe this is something
> > else Laurie can tell us, since she's an English professor.)"
> >
> > --
> > Alice Faber
> > Haskins Labs
> >
> >
> > If we knew what we were doing,
> > it wouldn't be called research,
> > would it?
> >
> > -- Albert Einstein
>
>--
>~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
>
>Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
>CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
>University of Alabama Libraries
>Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
>Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
>rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 23 00:12:27 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:12:27 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <E1D3g84-0000mf-00@mx05.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.191227.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jeez, Bev, I'm sorry. I didn't mean my post as a criticism of your
post. I was just adding some info. Since I'm retired, I use trash TV,
especially Jerry, Maury, and the Club Comic View show on BET, as my
informants. On those shows, you will almost never hear a possessive /s/
used by a black guest and its use is getting to be relatively rare
among Latins, especially in the phrase, "baby daddy," which BET even
pluralizes in print as "baby daddies," though you would expect "babies'
daddies."

-Wilson

On Feb 22, 2005, at 2:51 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Y'all" redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Yes, zero possessive marking would make sense in Black English.  The
> earlier example may or may not have been BE (I should have asked the
> writer).
>
> At 09:25 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote:
>> "Y'all house," with "y'all" interpreted as possessive would be
>> standard
>> in Black English, if there was a standard version of that dialect.
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>> On Feb 21, 2005, at 12:22 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
>>> Subject:      Re: "Y'all" redux
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> "y'all house" as possessive?  I've heard both "y'all's" and
>>> "y'allses"
>>> as
>>> possessive, but not "y'all."  Do you have "y'allses"?
>>>
>>> At 07:10 PM 2/19/2005, you wrote:
>>>> As a white  South Louisianian, I have never heard "Y'all" as a
>>>> singular
>>>> pronoun, but the use of "y'all's" and "y'all" as a possessive
>>>> pronoun
>>>> is
>>>> used.(I passed by y'all's/ y'all house yesterday, but y'all weren't
>>>> home.)
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>>>> To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:45 PM
>>>> Subject: "Y'all" redux
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>> header -----------------------
>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>>>>> Subject:      "Y'all" redux
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --
>>>>> -----
>>>> -----
>>>>>
>>>>> In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers
>>>>> could,
>>>>> would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
>>>>> posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
>>>>> Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
>>>>> agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal,
>>>>> in
>>>>> his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of
>>>>> the
>>>>> use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that
>>>>> "y'all"
>>>>> *is* used as a singular.
>>>>>
>>>>> In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I
>>>>> suggested
>>>>> that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East
>>>>> Texas
>>>>> and Fort Worth.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never
>>>>> been
>>>>> farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
>>>>> description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan
>>>>> area
>>>>> in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows
>>>>> that
>>>>> East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
>>>>> English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
>>>>> English.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that
>>>>> it
>>>>> depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
>>>>> white.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Wilson Gray
>


From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM  Wed Feb 23 00:27:25 2005
From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:27:25 -0500
Subject: dialects in film
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.192725.0500.ABARAGONA@SPRYNET.COM>

I had a similar experience with "Sophie's Choice" as Carrie Lowery had with
"Braveheart."  I thought Streep's accent was great . . . until a few days
after I first saw the movie when I met three Poles who had seen it and
thought her accent was terrible!  She sounded Russian to them, which, you
can imagine, they didn't appreciate at all.  Perhaps Sally was hearing her
Polish guide with American ears.

Alan B.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sally O. Donlon" <sod at LOUISIANA.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 1:20 PM
Subject: dialects in film


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Sally O. Donlon" <sod at LOUISIANA.EDU>
> Subject:      dialects in film
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> Meryl Streep did a fabulous job of some regional Polish dialect in
> "Sophie's Choice."
>
> I didn't notice it so much at the time because I had no real frame of
> reference. However, several years later I found myself in a pitch black
> elevator shaft and descending I-don't-know-how-many-hundred-feet to
> view these incredible carved caverns in an old salt mine in Poland. The
> darkness was so deep I literally [used literally] could not see my hand
> in front of my face when I held it up to test the old colloquialism.
> Suddenly, Meryl Streep's "Sophie" rushed into my consciousness. I saw
> her as I could not see my hand. The trigger: the local tour guide, a
> young woman whose disembodied voice was exactly the same one I had
> heard years ago coming from Meryl Streep.
>
> The odd thing is that I hadn't noticed it earlier in the visit.
> Presumably because other sensory input had distracted me. But, in the
> deep darkness, the mental representation was triggered by the single
> sensory input of the tour guide's voice.
>
> sod


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 23 00:41:12 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 19:41:12 -0500
Subject: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
In-Reply-To: <E1D3jUH-0002st-00@mx20.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.194112.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 22, 2005, at 6:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "In the mist of life we are in death."
>
>           --<OnlyRice>, "I was just thinking about  guard..,"
> (Usenet:rec.arts.marching.colorguard), Aug. 14, 1997.
>
> And elsewhere, no doubt.
>
> JL

Re: "I was just thinking about guard..."

I'm sure that I'm missing your point, Jon, but this use of "guard"
reminds me of one of my own early overcorrections. Once we'd left Texas
and I discovered that [r] could occur somewhere other than
word-initially, I decided that the proper pronunciation of "God" must
be "Guard" and that "God" and "Guard" were the same word: "Guard." Of
course, once I'd learned to read well enough, I gave up that idea.

-Wilson

> Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Laurence Horn
> Subject: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> from a contributor to a cancer survivors and caretakers support group:
>
> "well, in the mist of all of this with [name of spouse with cancer] I
> had fell and hit my head..."
>
> Whether this was a typo for "in the midst of" or a reanalysis isn't
> entirely knowable. But since the "all of this" in the context refers
> to the murky complexity of misdiagnoses, denial of coverage, etc.
> etc., I suspect the "mist" is in fact a reanalysis/eggcorn. (This is
> the same writer who previously contributed "biospy" for "biopsy".)
>
> Larry
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Feb 23 00:45:36 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:45:36 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <20050222230621.57558.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.164536.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 22, 2005, at 3:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ...second- or third-generation Jewish and Italian New Yorkers do
> frequently sound different - though maybe not to tourists.

they certainly don't sound the same to *me*, but it seems to be a
belief of the people who make movies and tv shows that american jews
and italian americans (and the occasional greek american) are
interchangeable.  it's really annoying.

arnold


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Feb 23 01:10:08 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 17:10:08 -0800
Subject: illegitament
In-Reply-To: <a06020400be404087a603@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.171008.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 21, 2005, at 5:52 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> A linguistic explanation is available. See David Stamp's "Why some
> people live in the Uninted States." Must be in OSU Working Papers
> somewhere.

Stampe.  Stampe.  Stampe.

not in OSU WPL, i think, but i'm asking david.

arnold


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 23 02:15:51 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:15:51 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Yalie"
In-Reply-To: <E1D3Z6m-0003xr-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.211551.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Not only did Frank Merriwell appear in books, but he also had his own
radio program.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 22, 2005, at 7:25 AM, Fred Shapiro wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Antedating of "Yalie"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Yalie (OED 1969)
>
> 1941 _Harvard Crimson_ 22 Nov. When we were much younger we had the
> enlightening experience of reading a book about a Yalie named Frank
> Merriwell.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 02:18:31 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:18:31 -0800
Subject: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.181831.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED does a less than satisfactory job with "hello" and variants used as simple greetings rather than calls to people at a distance - or interjections of surprise.  Part of the reason is no doubt the ambiguity of  early exx.

Many of you will be familiar with the widespread canard that "hello" was invented by Thomas Edison specifically for use on the newfangled telephone.

Here is an early example of "hollo!" that looks like a simple greeting.  (Naturally, not all doubt can be removed.)

1841 Leman Rede Sixteen-String Jack (London: G. H. Davidson, n.d.) 36 [characters nearly face to face] "Hollo, old boy!  I'm glad to see you back again!"

"Hi !" has followed an identical course. OED's 1862 may be misplaced, however. And what's the word "car" doing in 1885?  It doesn't seem to be a railway car.

By the time we get to F. Scott Fitzgerald in 1920, the cite for "Hi !" shows unmistakably  the current usage.

OED doesn't include the universal Southern U.S. "hey!" as an exact equivalent of "hi!"  Dating this accurately will also be difficult.  (I once thought only Gomer Pyle said it. Travel *is* broadening.)

JL


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From dave at WILTON.NET  Wed Feb 23 02:23:31 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:23:31 -0800
Subject: Dialects in the movies
In-Reply-To: <p06020400be4111420ad7@[128.135.207.204]>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.182331.0800.>

Not quite the same subject, but I have an observation about the movie "A
Bridge Too Far," a 1970s 'cast of thousands' war movie about Operation
Market Garden, the 1944 battle in Holland. In general, cast members were
given characters that matched their native accents (e.g., Sean Connery plays
a Scot). The Germans speak German and the Dutch speak Dutch (with
subtitles). Some exceptions are Gene Hackman, who plays a Pole, and Liv
Ullman and Laurence Olivier who play Dutch characters. I'm not familiar
enough with Polish to judge Hackman's accent, but I saw the movie once on
Dutch TV with the English and German dialogue subtitled in Dutch. The Dutch
dialogue, including Olivier's lines, was not subtitled. But Ullman's lines
in Dutch were subtitled. I can only conclude that the pronunciation was so
bad that they figured the audience needed the help.

In another movie, Mel Gibson dubbed his own lines for the American version
of "Mad Max." He softened the Australian accent to make it more
understandable to the US audience. The sync is not particularly good and the
result looks like a bad kung fu movie--which one might argue gives the movie
a kind of Sergio Leone quality.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 02:31:31 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 18:31:31 -0800
Subject: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.183131.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Guard" means "colorguard," though your point is well taken.  Look soon for "Gard Bless Americker" bumper stickers.

The subject is "in the MIST of" as a possible eggcorn.   The posted ex. is the most profoundly poetic eggcorn I have ever seen.

Sniff.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Feb 22, 2005, at 6:12 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "In the mist of life we are in death."
>
> --, "I was just thinking about guard..,"
> (Usenet:rec.arts.marching.colorguard), Aug. 14, 1997.
>
> And elsewhere, no doubt.
>
> JL

Re: "I was just thinking about guard..."

I'm sure that I'm missing your point, Jon, but this use of "guard"
reminds me of one of my own early overcorrections. Once we'd left Texas
and I discovered that [r] could occur somewhere other than
word-initially, I decided that the proper pronunciation of "God" must
be "Guard" and that "God" and "Guard" were the same word: "Guard." Of
course, once I'd learned to read well enough, I gave up that idea.

-Wilson

> Laurence Horn wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Laurence Horn
> Subject: "in the mist of" (possible new eggcorn)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> from a contributor to a cancer survivors and caretakers support group:
>
> "well, in the mist of all of this with [name of spouse with cancer] I
> had fell and hit my head..."
>
> Whether this was a typo for "in the midst of" or a reanalysis isn't
> entirely knowable. But since the "all of this" in the context refers
> to the murky complexity of misdiagnoses, denial of coverage, etc.
> etc., I suspect the "mist" is in fact a reanalysis/eggcorn. (This is
> the same writer who previously contributed "biospy" for "biopsy".)
>
> Larry
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
>


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From pds at VISI.COM  Tue Feb 22 20:40:51 2005
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 14:40:51 -0600
Subject: Dialects in the movies
In-Reply-To: <20050222164005.34B48610B@bodb.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.144051.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The actress would be Maggie Renzi.  Don't know where she grew up, but the
IMDB says she met Sayles at Williams in MA.  Her character lives in Boston
but summers in western MA where her character's husband, at least, is from.

At 2/22/2005 11:35 AM -0500, Joanne M. Despres wrote:
>In John Sayles' "The Return of the Secaucus Seven," a character
>whose name I've forgotten (the actress who plays her has dark
>brown hair and has appeared in other Sayles films) does a wicked
>imitation of what I think is supposed to be a Maine accent.  It
>sounds very much like the dialect I used to hear as a kid in
>northeastern Massachusetts.
>
>Joanne Despres
>Merriam-Webster


   Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
   pds at visi.com       Saint Paul MN USA
           http://www.visi.com/~pds


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Feb 23 02:51:36 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:51:36 -0500
Subject: "Coca-Cola"/"Coke"  (in Tanzania) = something easy, a given,
 no problem
In-Reply-To: <A7704766F9EE3949B30D5BF6297999A21B86EC@UMR-CMAIL3.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.215136.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>When I was in Tanzania (TZ) I was speaking with my guide about all kinds
>of cultural points of interest, and this came up in conversation around a
>political race that was in progress at the time.  This particular
>candidate was a sure thing for winning the seat.  Everyone knew it and
>called it, "Coke."

It sure looks like "cake": e.g., "This is a cake assignment", "It's a piece
of cake", "It was no cakewalk". Offhand I don't know the etymological
connection (if any) between "cake" and "cakewalk" here, and I don't know
how "coke" is connected (if it is).

-- Doug Wilson


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 03:18:31 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 22:18:31 -0500
Subject: y'all redux
In-Reply-To: <2FC84732E041AB4FA4718514408A93130959FF@stl-mail4.stl.umsl.edu>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.221831.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Maybe our problem here is not a grammatical one of singularity/plurality,
but a pragmatic one of mutual contextual knowlege and beliefs (a la, Bach
and Harnish).  Southerners (self proclaimed, on this list) deny singularity.
Non-Southerners (apparently, or by long disassociation with native dialect)
claim to hear singularity.  This posting suggests that we are dealing with
expectations (i. e., presuppositions) rather than grammaticality.  For
Southerners, the implicature is always plural.  "Northerners" do not share
the mutual contextual knowledge with "Southerners," therefore interpret the
context grammatically rather than pragmatically.

Jim Stalker

Majors, Tivoli writes:

> I'm from Dallas so I thought I'd weigh in on the whole y'all thing. We used to argue about this in grad school at UT all the time. Generally, it was yankees who would say they heard y'all used in the singular. Us Texans would vehemently deny the possibiility. What I think may be going on is that when we southerners use y'all, it always has a plural intention, but may not seem to to outsiders. So if someone were to say to me "Did y'all enjoy that movie?" I would understand that to be addressed to me, anyone who saw the movie with me, and even anyone loosely affiliated with me. My assumption would not be that they meant me myself alone. In fact, I'd say that meaning is not allowable in my dialect. I can't speak for others, of course, but we Texans were generally in agreement on this point. None of us was from West Texas, but Ft. Worth is just a stone's throw from Dallas, so I'm still a little dubious.
>



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Feb 23 04:34:58 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:34:58 -0500
Subject: Another eggcorn: "lip-sing"
In-Reply-To: <20050222231244.19824.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.233458.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I just ran into "lip-sing" for "lip-synch" [verb]. Pretty good. Hundreds of
Web examples.

-- Doug Wilson


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 04:48:53 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:48:53 -0800
Subject: y'all redux
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.204853.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Then how explain the occasional Southerner who admits to occasional singularity?

Most people, one assumes, don't often monitor their own speech for absolute semantic precision.  Whatever the observable facts of "singularity," the *average* Southern speaker, I believe, is far more likely to admit the possibility of occasional singularity than are sophisticated Southerners with an interest in language.

Just another damyankee hypothesis.

JL


James C Stalker <stalker at MSU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: James C Stalker
Subject: Re: y'all redux
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe our problem here is not a grammatical one of singularity/plurality,
but a pragmatic one of mutual contextual knowlege and beliefs (a la, Bach
and Harnish). Southerners (self proclaimed, on this list) deny singularity.
Non-Southerners (apparently, or by long disassociation with native dialect)
claim to hear singularity. This posting suggests that we are dealing with
expectations (i. e., presuppositions) rather than grammaticality. For
Southerners, the implicature is always plural. "Northerners" do not share
the mutual contextual knowledge with "Southerners," therefore interpret the
context grammatically rather than pragmatically.

Jim Stalker

Majors, Tivoli writes:

> I'm from Dallas so I thought I'd weigh in on the whole y'all thing. We used to argue about this in grad school at UT all the time. Generally, it was yankees who would say they heard y'all used in the singular. Us Texans would vehemently deny the possibiility. What I think may be going on is that when we southerners use y'all, it always has a plural intention, but may not seem to to outsiders. So if someone were to say to me "Did y'all enjoy that movie?" I would understand that to be addressed to me, anyone who saw the movie with me, and even anyone loosely affiliated with me. My assumption would not be that they meant me myself alone. In fact, I'd say that meaning is not allowable in my dialect. I can't speak for others, of course, but we Texans were generally in agreement on this point. None of us was from West Texas, but Ft. Worth is just a stone's throw from Dallas, so I'm still a little dubious.
>



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University

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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 04:54:01 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 20:54:01 -0800
Subject: dialects in the movies
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.205401.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What do "real" Aussies  - sorry, *Ozzies* - think of Gibson's former Australian accent?  He lived in upstate New York till he was 11 or 12.

JL



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From RonButters at AOL.COM  Wed Feb 23 04:58:37 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:58:37 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Call=20for=20papers?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?:=20a=20tidbit?=
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.235837.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/22/05 6:02:50 PM, juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US
writes:


> Don't you mean "Oh child!"?
>

Or maybe "Oh girlfriend!"


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Feb 23 05:05:30 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:05:30 -0500
Subject: Tech (1882), Techie (1963)
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.000530.0500.>

As far as I know, the only long-standing campus newspaper other than the
Harvard Crimson that has digitized its archive is MIT's paper, "The Tech",
dating back to 1881: <http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/>.  The OCR for the
Tech is far worse than for the Crimson, and there's no search facility
beyond using Google (also, there seem to be significant gaps in what's
searchable, particularly in the '50s and '60s).  But at least the original
page images are provided.

The Tech is naturally a good place to find citations for "Tech".  One
sense of "Tech", meaning 'an MIT student', is not in the OED (though see
"Techie" below).  This sense can be found throughout the paper from its
very first year of publication, 1881-82 (page numbers carry over from
issue to issue in the volume):

-----
1882 _The Tech_ (MIT) 11 Jan. 57/2 Harvard's new daily, the Herald, comes
to hand, its first issue containing a notice of the "Techs at the Globe."
http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_001/TECH_V001_S0059_P009.pdf
http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_001/TECH_V001_S0060_P010.pdf
-----
1882 _The Tech_ (MIT) 22 Feb. 92/1 It is because they have heard that
close attention to small things makes the successful man, that the "Techs"
take such good care of their mustaches.
http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_001/TECH_V001_S0094_P008.pdf
-----
1882 _The Tech_ (MIT) 5 Apr. 128/1 One of the Techs has a goat which he
says is more aesthetic than Oscar Wilde, -- it's all butt.
http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_001/TECH_V001_S0131_P008.pdf
-----
1882 _The Tech_ (MIT) 3 May 157/1 We understand that the near approach of
the annuals has caused several Techs to have their beds taken out of their
rooms, as they have no further use for them.
http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_001/TECH_V001_S0160_P009.pdf
-----

A cite from the Crimson slightly predates these:

-----
1882 _Harvard Crimson_ 3 Jan., "Techs" at the Globe Theatre. About one
hundred members of the Institute of Technology visited the Globe Theatre
last night.
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=278928
-----

"Tech" as an abbreviation for "Institute of Technology" is dated by OED2
to 1906, but the Tech has it as early as Nov. 1882:

-----
1882 _The Tech_ (MIT) 8 Nov. 36/2 The Techs then kicked the ball off, but
the superior weight of the Yale team again carried the ball very near the
Tech's goal.
http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_002/TECH_V002_S0052_P010.pdf
-----

It's possible that's just a misplaced apostrophe ("Tech's goal" for
"Techs' goal").  But by 1884-85 "Tech" was being used attributively in the
Crimson, the Tech, and the New York Times:

-----
1884 _Harvard Crimson_ 27 Oct., After the ball was started in the middle
the Tech men made another rush towards our goal but were unable to hold
the ground thus gained.
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=334902
-----
1885 _The Tech_ (MIT) 4 Feb. 104/2 We shall now cease croaking about a
lack of college spirit, as it is evident that a large percentage of Tech
students are industriously training for the Glee Club.
http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_004/TECH_V004_S0171_P010.pdf
-----
1885 _New York Times_ 8 Nov. 2/5 This afternoon the football teams of the
Institute of Technology and Williams College played the most exciting and
interesting game that has been seen in Boston. In the first half Bigelow
was disqualified for striking a "Tech" man, and Wentworth was substituted
for him.
-----

Surprisingly, a search for "Techie" meaning 'MIT student' doesn't turn up
anything before the 1980s, though this is probably due to the gaps in
Google's search facility mentioned above.  The more reliable Crimson
archive antedates what OED2 has (1969 for 'student in a school of
technology', 1981 for 'MIT student'):

-----
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=499745
1963 _Harvard Crimson_ 1 Nov. This is the twenty-third year of the Schell
Regatta. It is conducted each year in honor of Erwin Schell, the M.I.T.
professor who instituted the sailing program for Techies.
-----

The Crimson also antedates "techie" in the sense of 'technician' (OED2 1970):

-----
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=209914
1969 _Harvard Crimson_ 7 Mar. The audience at a Harvard show is pretty
unaware of techies--the backstage and front office people who organize,
frame and run a production--except as names on the right hand side of a
program.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 23 05:30:04 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:30:04 -0500
Subject: Another eggcorn: "lip-sing"
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050222233321.02faa880@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.003004.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:34 PM -0500 2/22/05, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:
>I just ran into "lip-sing" for "lip-synch" [verb]. Pretty good. Hundreds of
>Web examples.
>
>-- Doug Wilson

Yes, I've been using that one for years, at least since a 1994 "Words
and Meaning" final exam, so it's been around that long.  I first came
across it on a religious web site, of all places, in the gerundive
form ("lip-singing").

Larry


From prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 05:01:43 2005
From: prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM (howard schrager)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 21:01:43 -0800
Subject: Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.210143.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I want to ask one more time if anyone knows specifics about the origins of the street rhymes: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork, that's the way to say New York, and Chicken in the Car and the Car Can't go, that's the way to say Chicago. My father learned them in the 20's on the streets of Philadelphia and/or New York.
Howard Schrager




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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 23 05:44:20 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:44:20 -0500
Subject: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
In-Reply-To: <E1D3m6y-00016y-00@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.004420.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, I thought that I remembered from somewhere or other the spellings
"holloa" and "halloa" and, sure enough, they're in the OED. And I'm
beginning to think that it was in the OED that I remember these
spellings from. Oh, well. I thought I had something, for a minute,
there.

-Wilson

On Feb 22, 2005, at 9:18 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> OED does a less than satisfactory job with "hello" and variants used
> as simple greetings rather than calls to people at a distance - or
> interjections of surprise.  Part of the reason is no doubt the
> ambiguity of  early exx.
>
> Many of you will be familiar with the widespread canard that "hello"
> was invented by Thomas Edison specifically for use on the newfangled
> telephone.
>
> Here is an early example of "hollo!" that looks like a simple
> greeting.  (Naturally, not all doubt can be removed.)
>
> 1841 Leman Rede Sixteen-String Jack (London: G. H. Davidson, n.d.) 36
> [characters nearly face to face] "Hollo, old boy!  I'm glad to see you
> back again!"
>
> "Hi !" has followed an identical course. OED's 1862 may be misplaced,
> however. And what's the word "car" doing in 1885?  It doesn't seem to
> be a railway car.
>
> By the time we get to F. Scott Fitzgerald in 1920, the cite for "Hi !"
> shows unmistakably  the current usage.
>
> OED doesn't include the universal Southern U.S. "hey!" as an exact
> equivalent of "hi!"  Dating this accurately will also be difficult.
> (I once thought only Gomer Pyle said it. Travel *is* broadening.)
>
> JL
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
>


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Feb 23 05:50:24 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:50:24 -0500
Subject: Another eggcorn: "lip-sing"
In-Reply-To: <p04320401be41c403a387@[130.132.245.215]>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.005024.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>I just ran into "lip-sing" for "lip-synch" [verb]. Pretty good. Hundreds of
>>Web examples.

>Yes, I've been using that one for years, at least since a 1994 "Words
>and Meaning" final exam, so it's been around that long.  I first came
>across it on a religious web site, of all places, in the gerundive
>form ("lip-singing").

Note that there are many Web examples of "lip-sung" and "lip-sang" ... but
also many examples of "lip-singed".

-- Doug Wilson


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Feb 23 05:57:31 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:57:31 -0500
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.005731.0500.>

>http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=489487
>Harvard Crimson, October 18, 1955
>Three articles billed by Holiday as "the most infuriating ever published"
>probably will arouse little wrath when the magazine reaches Square
>newsstands this morning.
>Ostensibly an explanation of the "naturally superior" Ivy intellect for
>people from west of the Alleghanies, the articles vary from a serious
>appraisal of the Ivy League education to a less high-minded account of the
>social life of Harvard "wonkies" and their Princeton and Yale
>counterparts, "ayools" and "weenies."

Arnold Zwicky notes in an email that "ayools" is probably a mis-scanning
of "tools", which he recalls being used at Princeton in 1958-62.

What's the earliest cite for "tool" meaning 'socially inept person' (to
use Connie Eble's definition in _Slang and Sociability_)?  Checking
_AmSp_, I find a mention of it all the way back in 1932:

-----
"More Stanford Expressions", John Ashton Shidler
American Speech, Vol. 7, No. 6 (Aug., 1932), pp. 436-7
Some very interesting words and phrases are used during fraternity
rushing. After the freshman have left the house and the day's rushing is
over the fraternity brothers meet to discuss the frosh and eliminate those
who are undesirable. ... A "tool" is a boy who is not desirable and one on
whom time is being wasted.
-----

--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Wed Feb 23 06:18:04 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:18:04 -0500
Subject: rushee (1903)
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.011804.0500.>

* rushee 'student rushed by a fraternity or sorority' (OED2/MW11 1916)

1903 _Atlanta Constitution_ 5 Oct. 5/4 Several of the rushees were
undecided until the last moment, apparently wavering now toward this
fraternity and now toward that, and many were the excited discussions and
bets.


--Ben Zimmer


From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Feb 23 06:20:57 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:20:57 -0500
Subject: Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork
In-Reply-To: <20050223050143.74352.qmail@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.012057.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I want to ask one more time if anyone knows specifics about the origins of
>the street rhymes: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork, that's the
>way to say New York, and Chicken in the Car and the Car Can't go, that's
>the way to say Chicago. My father learned them in the 20's on the streets
>of Philadelphia and/or New York.

I've seen several of these somewhere but I can't remember where. I surely
don't know anything about the origins.

The New York rhyme can be found from 1915 as a rebus (at N'archive). I
don't know whether that's early enough to be interesting.

-- Doug Wilson


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 23 06:42:04 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:42:04 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.014204.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Y'all" was so much fun that we should do another one, "gwine," that
should be less controversial. I'm no longer certain of how or when I
became familiar with this example of old-school Negro dialect. But I do
recall hearing it spoken in jest by a schoolmate in Texas around 1947.
Otherwise, I was familiar with "gwine" only from the movies, especially
George Pal's dumb-nigger animated cartoons and from comic books and
such written in Negro dialect. But, similarly to "y'all," as a
singular, I never heard it spoken in real life.

For years and years, I listened to all kinds of blues and rhythm &
blues, talked with colored folk from all over the South, and the
closest that I came to hearing a real "gwine" was "goina." Then, one
evening in 1979, I was listening to an interview with Sunnyland Slim,
an old-time blues pianist and a native of Mississsippi, on the local
NPR station, when I heard him say quite clearly, "They was gwine
broke!" My reaction was, "Damn! It's true! In fact, it's still a living
form!" Then I noticed that Memphis "She plays guitar like a man" Minnie
used "gwine." That was odd, because I'd been listening to her songs for
years without hearing any "gwine." But that mystery solved itself.
Sometimes, Minnie chose to use "gwine"; other times she chose to use
"gon(na)." I assume that she originally used "gwine," shifting over
time to "gon(na)," as "gwine" fell out of fashion. But that's just a
guess.

Sunnyland Slim and Memphis Minnie are both now deceased. Has "gwine"
finally died with them?

-Wilson Gray


From cchesnut2002 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 07:03:07 2005
From: cchesnut2002 at YAHOO.COM (Christopher Chesnut)
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 23:03:07 -0800
Subject: Unsubscribe
Message-ID: <TUE.22.FEB.2005.230307.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have been enjoying reading these messages each day,
but my mailbox is needed for other 'listserv's.  For
the time being, please unsubscribe me.

~Chris Chesnut

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 23 12:11:54 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:11:54 -0500
Subject: Tech (1882), Techie (1963)
In-Reply-To: <61237.69.142.143.59.1109135130.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.071154.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> As far as I know, the only long-standing campus newspaper other than the
> Harvard Crimson that has digitized its archive is MIT's paper, "The Tech",
> dating back to 1881: <http://www-tech.mit.edu/archives/>.

I used The Tech archives in 2003 to antedate the terms "hacker" and
"hack."  I repeat the posting below:


The word "hacker" in its well-known computing sense has a first citation
of 1971 (contributed by me) in the Historical Dictionary of American
Slang.  Here is an earlier citation, not precisely in a computing context
but obviously the same term:

1963 _The Tech_ (MIT student newspaper) 20 Nov. 1  Many telephone services
have been curtailed because of so-called hackers, according to Prof.
Carlton Tucker, administrator of the Institute phone system. ... The
hackers have accomplished such things as tying up all the tie-lines
between Harvard and MIT, or making long-distance calls by charging them to
a local radar installation.  One method involved connecting the PDP-1
computer to the phone system to search the lines until a dial tone,
indicating an outside line, was found. ... Because of the "hacking," the
majority of the MIT phones are "trapped."

***

Note that the last sentence above contains what is essentially a 20-year
antedating of sense 5.b. of hack, v.2 in the HDAS.  Also, this citation
makes it clear that the common theory that "hacker" originally was a
benign term and the malicious connotations of the word were a later
perversion is untrue.  The malicious connotations of the word were present
from its origins in MIT slang.


Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 23 12:13:52 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:13:52 -0500
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
In-Reply-To: <62511.69.142.143.59.1109138251.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.071352.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:

> Arnold Zwicky notes in an email that "ayools" is probably a mis-scanning
> of "tools", which he recalls being used at Princeton in 1958-62.
>
> What's the earliest cite for "tool" meaning 'socially inept person' (to
> use Connie Eble's definition in _Slang and Sociability_)?  Checking
> _AmSp_, I find a mention of it all the way back in 1932:

When I was a student at MIT in the 1970s, "tool" and "nerd" were the two
most common terms for a socially maladept student (a category encompassing
nearly all MIT students).  "Geek" and "grind" were not used very much
there.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 12:17:10 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:17:10 -0500
Subject: illegitament
In-Reply-To: <9284e76c0ffadcde046fb7402a0e967c@csli.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.071710.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Of course you would ignore my well-known e-deletion rule!

dInIs



>On Feb 21, 2005, at 5:52 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>>A linguistic explanation is available. See David Stamp's "Why some
>>people live in the Uninted States." Must be in OSU Working Papers
>>somewhere.
>
>Stampe.  Stampe.  Stampe.
>
>not in OSU WPL, i think, but i'm asking david.
>
>arnold


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 12:26:40 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 07:26:40 -0500
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502230712110.30551-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.072640.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Arnold's dating looks good to me. In the early 60's one of the kids
my brother hung around with was nicknamed "the tool" by his buddies.
It had the sense given here, and I was aware of it earlier. It was
obvious to us that it was derived from "tool" = "penis," and used
much in the same way that other penile synonyms were, to belittle or
discredit the character of one so designated. It appeared to be a
milder rebuke than many of the others (e.g., prick, dick), perhaps on
a  par with "dork."

dInIs



>On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>
>>  Arnold Zwicky notes in an email that "ayools" is probably a mis-scanning
>>  of "tools", which he recalls being used at Princeton in 1958-62.
>>
>>  What's the earliest cite for "tool" meaning 'socially inept person' (to
>>  use Connie Eble's definition in _Slang and Sociability_)?  Checking
>>  _AmSp_, I find a mention of it all the way back in 1932:
>
>When I was a student at MIT in the 1970s, "tool" and "nerd" were the two
>most common terms for a socially maladept student (a category encompassing
>nearly all MIT students).  "Geek" and "grind" were not used very much
>there.
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
>Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>   Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
>Yale Law School                             forthcoming
>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 13:04:57 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 05:04:57 -0800
Subject: "Gwine"
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.050457.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine to run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana with my banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: "Gwine"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Y'all" was so much fun that we should do another one, "gwine," that
should be less controversial. I'm no longer certain of how or when I
became familiar with this example of old-school Negro dialect. But I do
recall hearing it spoken in jest by a schoolmate in Texas around 1947.
Otherwise, I was familiar with "gwine" only from the movies, especially
George Pal's dumb-nigger animated cartoons and from comic books and
such written in Negro dialect. But, similarly to "y'all," as a
singular, I never heard it spoken in real life.

For years and years, I listened to all kinds of blues and rhythm &
blues, talked with colored folk from all over the South, and the
closest that I came to hearing a real "gwine" was "goina." Then, one
evening in 1979, I was listening to an interview with Sunnyland Slim,
an old-time blues pianist and a native of Mississsippi, on the local
NPR station, when I heard him say quite clearly, "They was gwine
broke!" My reaction was, "Damn! It's true! In fact, it's still a living
form!" Then I noticed that Memphis "She plays guitar like a man" Minnie
used "gwine." That was odd, because I'd been listening to her songs for
years without hearing any "gwine." But that mystery solved itself.
Sometimes, Minnie chose to use "gwine"; other times she chose to use
"gon(na)." I assume that she originally used "gwine," shifting over
time to "gon(na)," as "gwine" fell out of fashion. But that's just a
guess.

Sunnyland Slim and Memphis Minnie are both now deceased. Has "gwine"
finally died with them?

-Wilson Gray


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 13:28:09 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 05:28:09 -0800
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.052809.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

OED has "a dull tool" as far back as ca1700, though in a somewhat broader sense.

JL

"Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"

Subject: Re: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arnold's dating looks good to me. In the early 60's one of the kids
my brother hung around with was nicknamed "the tool" by his buddies.
It had the sense given here, and I was aware of it earlier. It was
obvious to us that it was derived from "tool" = "penis," and used
much in the same way that other penile synonyms were, to belittle or
discredit the character of one so designated. It appeared to be a
milder rebuke than many of the others (e.g., prick, dick), perhaps on
a par with "dork."

dInIs



>On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>
>> Arnold Zwicky notes in an email that "ayools" is probably a mis-scanning
>> of "tools", which he recalls being used at Princeton in 1958-62.
>>
>> What's the earliest cite for "tool" meaning 'socially inept person' (to
>> use Connie Eble's definition in _Slang and Sociability_)? Checking
>> _AmSp_, I find a mention of it all the way back in 1932:
>
>When I was a student at MIT in the 1970s, "tool" and "nerd" were the two
>most common terms for a socially maladept student (a category encompassing
>nearly all MIT students). "Geek" and "grind" were not used very much
>there.
>
>Fred Shapiro
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred R. Shapiro Editor
>Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
> Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press,
>Yale Law School forthcoming
>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 13:48:17 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:48:17 -0500
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
In-Reply-To: <20050223132809.6489.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.084817.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Doesn't this "dull tool" more directly derive from the other, much
older derisive sense of tool, meaning "something [therefore someone]
that can be easily manipulated"?

I don't mean to suggest that these tools did not contaminate one another.


                  tool=instrument
                     /\
                    /  \
                   /    \
                penis  easily manipulated person
                 /        \
                /          \
               /            \
           jerk<-influence->stupid person


dInIs

>OED has "a dull tool" as far back as ca1700, though in a somewhat
>broader sense.
>
>JL
>
>"Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>
>Subject: Re: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Arnold's dating looks good to me. In the early 60's one of the kids
>my brother hung around with was nicknamed "the tool" by his buddies.
>It had the sense given here, and I was aware of it earlier. It was
>obvious to us that it was derived from "tool" = "penis," and used
>much in the same way that other penile synonyms were, to belittle or
>discredit the character of one so designated. It appeared to be a
>milder rebuke than many of the others (e.g., prick, dick), perhaps on
>a par with "dork."
>
>dInIs
>
>
>
>>On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>
>>>  Arnold Zwicky notes in an email that "ayools" is probably a mis-scanning
>>>  of "tools", which he recalls being used at Princeton in 1958-62.
>>>
>>>  What's the earliest cite for "tool" meaning 'socially inept person' (to
>>>  use Connie Eble's definition in _Slang and Sociability_)? Checking
>>>  _AmSp_, I find a mention of it all the way back in 1932:
>>
>>When I was a student at MIT in the 1970s, "tool" and "nerd" were the two
>>most common terms for a socially maladept student (a category encompassing
>>nearly all MIT students). "Geek" and "grind" were not used very much
>>there.
>>
>>Fred Shapiro
>>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Fred R. Shapiro Editor
>>Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>>  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press,
>>Yale Law School forthcoming
>>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 23 15:22:42 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:22:42 -0500
Subject: Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork
In-Reply-To: <20050223050143.74352.qmail@web30102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.102242.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

howard schrager wrote:
> I want to ask one more time if anyone knows specifics about the origins of the street rhymes: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork, that's the way to say New York, and Chicken in the Car and the Car Can't go, that's the way to say Chicago. My father learned them in the 20's on the streets of Philadelphia and/or New York.

I heard those from my father (both of them); he would have learned them
in NY, in the 20s. At that time, he might have still been living in the
Bronx, though he spent most of his childhood in Brooklyn (Bensonhurst).

--

Alice Faber


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 23 15:26:54 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:26:54 -0500
Subject: y'all redux
In-Reply-To: <20050223044853.26422.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.102654.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> Then how explain the occasional Southerner who admits to occasional singularity?
>
> Most people, one assumes, don't often monitor their own speech for absolute semantic precision.  Whatever the observable facts of "singularity," the *average* Southern speaker, I believe, is far more likely to admit the possibility of occasional singularity than are sophisticated Southerners with an interest in language.
>
> Just another damyankee hypothesis.
>

The comments on that blog entry I pointed to yesterday were mostly about
"y'all", singular or plural. I think those posters would count as
literate, self-aware non-linguists. While some commenters were as
insistent as any ADS-Ler that singular "y'all" is an unattested
monstrosity, there were other reasonable-sounding reports of unambiguous
singular "y'all".

(For those who didn't follow the link, the blog is
<http://www.yarnharlot.ca>, and the comments would have been to
yesterday's entry.

--

Alice Faber


From kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET  Wed Feb 23 15:36:27 2005
From: kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET (Patti J. Kurtz)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:36:27 -0600
Subject: One more movie question
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.093627.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This may sound odd, but can anyone think of examples of "bad" AAVE
dialect in recent films?  I'm trying to show my dialect students how the
media sometimes gets it wrong.  (I will show any good examples, too, of
course, but I thought we'd start with the bad ones as wer begin to study
AAVE.

Thanks!

Patti
--

Dr. Patti J. Kurtz

Assistant Professor, English

Director of the Writing Center

Minot State University

Minot, ND 58707



Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that.



Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims
that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program?



Foster: But we are RIGHT!



Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough.


From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU  Wed Feb 23 15:50:08 2005
From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:50:08 -0600
Subject: One more movie question
In-Reply-To: <200502231538.j1NFcI1m005453@bama.ua.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.095008.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bringing Down The House might be a good one to look at; I've used it
with success in intro classes. Queen Latifah uses African American
English and offers some imitations of stereotypical ideas of AAE. She
also switches to MUSE (maybe "honky-speak" is a better term for what she
does ;-}}). Steve Martin tries to speak AAE, once facetiously and once
in a more serious attempt to infiltrate an African American club. Also,
you may already know about this, but Lisa Green's chapter on African
American English in "Language in the USA: Themes for the Twenty-first
Century" (Eds. John Rickford and Edward Finegan) is an excellent (and
short) article on AAE, including info on AAE in films. The film she
claims doesn't get AAE right (mostly verb forms) is "Fresh" (1994),
which I've never seen.
Rachel

Patti J. Kurtz wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Patti J. Kurtz" <kurtpatt4 at NETSCAPE.NET>
> Subject:      One more movie question
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This may sound odd, but can anyone think of examples of "bad" AAVE
> dialect in recent films?  I'm trying to show my dialect students how the
> media sometimes gets it wrong.  (I will show any good examples, too, of
> course, but I thought we'd start with the bad ones as wer begin to study
> AAVE.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Patti
> --
>
> Dr. Patti J. Kurtz
>
> Assistant Professor, English
>
> Director of the Writing Center
>
> Minot State University
>
> Minot, ND 58707
>
>
>
> Foster: What about our evidence? They've got to take notice of that.
>
>
>
> Straker: Evidence. What's it going to look like when Henderson claims
> that we manufactured it, just to get a space clearance program?
>
>
>
> Foster: But we are RIGHT!
>
>
>
> Straker: Sometimes, Colonel, that's not quite enough.

--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
University of Alabama Libraries
Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 23 15:58:09 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:58:09 -0500
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
In-Reply-To: <a06020400be42388240cd@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.105809.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:48 AM -0500 2/23/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>Doesn't this "dull tool" more directly derive from the other, much
>older derisive sense of tool, meaning "something [therefore someone]
>that can be easily manipulated"?
>
>I don't mean to suggest that these tools did not contaminate one another.
>
>
>                  tool=instrument
>                     /\
>                    /  \
>                   /    \
>                penis  easily manipulated person
>                 /        \
>                /          \
>               /            \
>           jerk<-influence->stupid person
>
And the 'jerk' meaning doesn't ameliorate toward the pathetic.
There's a distinction between those "jerk"-type words (jerk, putz,
prick, asshole) that don't have such a meaning and the ones (schmuck,
bastard) that do:

the poor {bastard/schmuck}, what could he do?
     (cf. "the poor sap", "the poor shlemihl", etc., which don't have
the "obnoxious" use)
vs.
#the poor {jerk, asshole, putz, prick, tool}, what could he do?

larry


From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 16:06:56 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:06:56 -0500
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
In-Reply-To: <p0432040bbe42577044a1@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.110656.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

larry,

I'm not so sure about the *ing of "that poor jerk..." while I
generally agree with the others, although I am surprised at how the
frame "you poor X" considerably widens the acceptability for me.

dInIs



>At 8:48 AM -0500 2/23/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>Doesn't this "dull tool" more directly derive from the other, much
>>older derisive sense of tool, meaning "something [therefore someone]
>>that can be easily manipulated"?
>>
>>I don't mean to suggest that these tools did not contaminate one another.
>>
>>
>>                  tool=instrument
>>                     /\
>>                    /  \
>>                   /    \
>>                penis  easily manipulated person
>>                 /        \
>>                /          \
>>               /            \
>>           jerk<-influence->stupid person
>>
>And the 'jerk' meaning doesn't ameliorate toward the pathetic.
>There's a distinction between those "jerk"-type words (jerk, putz,
>prick, asshole) that don't have such a meaning and the ones (schmuck,
>bastard) that do:
>
>the poor {bastard/schmuck}, what could he do?
>     (cf. "the poor sap", "the poor shlemihl", etc., which don't have
>the "obnoxious" use)
>vs.
>#the poor {jerk, asshole, putz, prick, tool}, what could he do?
>
>larry


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From slang at ABECEDARY.NET  Wed Feb 23 16:14:34 2005
From: slang at ABECEDARY.NET (Jonathon Green)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:14:34 +0000
Subject: Guff
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.161434.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/attachments/20050223/21e4b006/attachment.htm>

From jester at PANIX.COM  Wed Feb 23 16:18:28 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:18:28 -0500
Subject: Guff
In-Reply-To: <421CABEA.7000407@abecedary.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.111828.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, Feb 23, 2005 at 04:14:34PM +0000, Jonathon Green wrote:
>
> I sent this earlier; for reasons I don't understand it seems
> to have gone to Ben Zimmer only.

Ben specifically sends his messages with a reply-to header set
to his address only. Thus if you reply to an ADS-L message sent
by him, it will go to him and not the list, unless you add ADS-L
yourself or use your mail program's "group reply" function.

Jesse Sheidlower
ADS-L


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb 23 16:28:26 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:28:26 -0500
Subject: Wall of Shame
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.112826.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Too early." It's tough going through 70 messages a day on this computer in the Dominican Republic, folks.

HELLO--I found this in the 1830s and posted that here years ago. I'll wait until Early American Newspapers is finished for a better answer, but it's at least that.

WONK--I looked through the Harvard Lampoon about ten years ago. I believe that I'd found "wonk" (the reverse spelling of "know") in 1955 or 1956.

WALL OF SHAME--Did someone discusss "Walk of Shame"? By the ugly Columbus monument here in Santo Domingo there was a slum. To hide it, in 1992 for the 500th anniversary festivities of 1492, they built a wall that became known as the "Wall of Shame."

I'm stuck at a resort here. Nothing much new in horseback riding or swimming.


From remlingk at GVSU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 16:28:35 2005
From: remlingk at GVSU.EDU (Kathryn Remlinger)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:28:35 -0500
Subject: Dialects in films
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.112835.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here are a few more film suggestions. (My previous message got cut in
transit. )

Mickey Blue Eyes (good for discussions of accommodation and dialect
"passing"--Hugh Grant tries to pass as a member of a New York mob
family)

Selina (Chicano English, code-switching)

Barber Shop I (varieties of AAE, good for dispelling myths about
speakers of AAE)

Escanaba in Da Moonlight (Michigan's southwestern Upper Peninsula, bad
imitations--lack of consistency)

Smoke Signals (Northwest and Southwest varieties of Native American
English)

And an example from TV: This week's Extreem Home Makeover--How'd They Do
That (ABC, Monday) there was quite a lengthy discussion of "southern
accents", including  a "southern vocabulary" quiz by Jeff Foxworthy and
examples of accommodation and style-shifting by Ty, the host of the
show.

--Kate





--
Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of English: Linguistics
Grand Valley State University
Allendale, MI 49401 USA
remlingk at gvsu.edu
tel: 616-331-3122
fax: 616-331-3430


From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU  Wed Feb 23 16:35:05 2005
From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:35:05 -0600
Subject: Dialects in films
In-Reply-To: <200502231628.j1NGSo1m029576@bama.ua.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.103505.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>
> Smoke Signals (Northwest and Southwest varieties of Native American
> English)
>
Powwow Highway offers Native American examples as does the tv show
Northern Exposure.
Rachel
>
>
> --
> Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of English: Linguistics
> Grand Valley State University
> Allendale, MI 49401 USA
> remlingk at gvsu.edu
> tel: 616-331-3122
> fax: 616-331-3430

--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
University of Alabama Libraries
Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 16:44:28 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:44:28 -0800
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.084428.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Tool" = penis could have been involved early (sense goes back to ME).

OED's limited evidence suggets that "dull tool" was the original idiom and that "tool" alone is a later development.

JL

"Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"

Subject: Re: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Doesn't this "dull tool" more directly derive from the other, much
older derisive sense of tool, meaning "something [therefore someone]
that can be easily manipulated"?

I don't mean to suggest that these tools did not contaminate one another.


tool=instrument
/\
/ \
/ \
penis easily manipulated person
/ \
/ \
/ \
jerk<-influence->stupid person


dInIs

>OED has "a dull tool" as far back as ca1700, though in a somewhat
>broader sense.
>
>JL
>
>"Dennis R. Preston"
wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>
>Subject: Re: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Arnold's dating looks good to me. In the early 60's one of the kids
>my brother hung around with was nicknamed "the tool" by his buddies.
>It had the sense given here, and I was aware of it earlier. It was
>obvious to us that it was derived from "tool" = "penis," and used
>much in the same way that other penile synonyms were, to belittle or
>discredit the character of one so designated. It appeared to be a
>milder rebuke than many of the others (e.g., prick, dick), perhaps on
>a par with "dork."
>
>dInIs
>
>
>
>>On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>
>>> Arnold Zwicky notes in an email that "ayools" is probably a mis-scanning
>>> of "tools", which he recalls being used at Princeton in 1958-62.
>>>
>>> What's the earliest cite for "tool" meaning 'socially inept person' (to
>>> use Connie Eble's definition in _Slang and Sociability_)? Checking
>>> _AmSp_, I find a mention of it all the way back in 1932:
>>
>>When I was a student at MIT in the 1970s, "tool" and "nerd" were the two
>>most common terms for a socially maladept student (a category encompassing
>>nearly all MIT students). "Geek" and "grind" were not used very much
>>there.
>>
>>Fred Shapiro
>>
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Fred R. Shapiro Editor
>>Associate Librarian for Collections and YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
>> Access and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale University Press,
>>Yale Law School forthcoming
>>e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu http://quotationdictionary.com
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 16:58:31 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 08:58:31 -0800
Subject: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.085831.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

larry,

"The / you poor prick !" is discordant for me. So is "...asshole," though maybe less so.  These terms are so strong that they clash with the condescending sympathy of "poor."  "Jerk" and "putz" are quite acceptable here. "Poor tool" sounds possible.

JL


"Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"

Subject: Re: weenie, wonkie (1955), wonk (1956)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

larry,

I'm not so sure about the *ing of "that poor jerk..." while I
generally agree with the others, although I am surprised at how the
frame "you poor X" considerably widens the acceptability for me.

dInIs



>At 8:48 AM -0500 2/23/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>Doesn't this "dull tool" more directly derive from the other, much
>>older derisive sense of tool, meaning "something [therefore someone]
>>that can be easily manipulated"?
>>
>>I don't mean to suggest that these tools did not contaminate one another.
>>
>>
>> tool=instrument
>> /\
>> / \
>> / \
>> penis easily manipulated person
>> / \
>> / \
>> / \
>> jerk<-influence->stupid person
>>
>And the 'jerk' meaning doesn't ameliorate toward the pathetic.
>There's a distinction between those "jerk"-type words (jerk, putz,
>prick, asshole) that don't have such a meaning and the ones (schmuck,
>bastard) that do:
>
>the poor {bastard/schmuck}, what could he do?
> (cf. "the poor sap", "the poor shlemihl", etc., which don't have
>the "obnoxious" use)
>vs.
>#the poor {jerk, asshole, putz, prick, tool}, what could he do?
>
>larry


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Wed Feb 23 17:00:35 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:00:35 +0000
Subject: Larimar (stone from the Dominican Republic)
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.170035.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Larimar" is not in the OED. It's a stone apparently unique to the Dominican Republic. There are almost 8,000 Google hits for "Larimar" and "Dominican Republic." Larimar has blue and green colors.

Thank goodness that OED pays for these trips. (Just kidding.)

(GOOGLE)
Larimar Jewelry Factory, Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ]
The Larimar Factory is a producer of quality Larimar jewelry from the Caribbean
in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic.
www.larimarfactory.com/ - 9k - En cach? - P?ginas similares


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Wed Feb 23 17:17:04 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:17:04 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <20050223130457.7091.qmail@web53907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.121704.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>"Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine to
>run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana with my
>banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>
>JL
~~~~~~~~~
I suppose it says something about my (forbidden subject) politics that the
first thing that came to my mind was:
"Gwine-a lay down my sword & shield
Down by the riverside...."
A. Murie

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 17:24:00 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:24:00 -0800
Subject: "Gwine"
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.092400.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Actually, I'm gwine to Loozyanna *my Susannah for to see."

Sorry, music lovers.

JL

sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: sagehen
Subject: Re: "Gwine"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>"Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine to
>run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana with my
>banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>
>JL
~~~~~~~~~
I suppose it says something about my (forbidden subject) politics that the
first thing that came to my mind was:
"Gwine-a lay down my sword & shield
Down by the riverside...."
A. Murie

~@:> ~@:> ~@:> ~@:>


---------------------------------
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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 23 18:32:12 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:32:12 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <E1D3wCw-00014l-00@mx08.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.133212.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Absolutely. I'd completely forgotten about Stephen Foster's oeuvre. In
fact, I can recall that that's how I first learned the form, starting
in the first grade and ending in the sixth, now that you've reminded
me. Thank you, Jon. Indeed, we were even taught the song, "Jim Crow!" -
I've never known who wrote it - in the first grade.

Jump! Oh, jump!
Oh, jump, Jim Crow!
[...]
And around you go!
Slide! Slide!
Point your toe!
You're a funny little fellow
When you jump, Jim Crow!

There was no PC back in the day. On the other hand, though, "Jim Crow"
was such a popular brand of whiskey that it had a nickname: "Dirty
Bird."

-Wilson

On Feb 23, 2005, at 8:04 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine
> to run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana
> with my banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Y'all" was so much fun that we should do another one, "gwine," that
> should be less controversial. I'm no longer certain of how or when I
> became familiar with this example of old-school Negro dialect. But I do
> recall hearing it spoken in jest by a schoolmate in Texas around 1947.
> Otherwise, I was familiar with "gwine" only from the movies, especially
> George Pal's dumb-nigger animated cartoons and from comic books and
> such written in Negro dialect. But, similarly to "y'all," as a
> singular, I never heard it spoken in real life.
>
> For years and years, I listened to all kinds of blues and rhythm &
> blues, talked with colored folk from all over the South, and the
> closest that I came to hearing a real "gwine" was "goina." Then, one
> evening in 1979, I was listening to an interview with Sunnyland Slim,
> an old-time blues pianist and a native of Mississsippi, on the local
> NPR station, when I heard him say quite clearly, "They was gwine
> broke!" My reaction was, "Damn! It's true! In fact, it's still a living
> form!" Then I noticed that Memphis "She plays guitar like a man" Minnie
> used "gwine." That was odd, because I'd been listening to her songs for
> years without hearing any "gwine." But that mystery solved itself.
> Sometimes, Minnie chose to use "gwine"; other times she chose to use
> "gon(na)." I assume that she originally used "gwine," shifting over
> time to "gon(na)," as "gwine" fell out of fashion. But that's just a
> guess.
>
> Sunnyland Slim and Memphis Minnie are both now deceased. Has "gwine"
> finally died with them?
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>


From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 18:41:50 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:41:50 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <f03460c6f4680186cabc468cf4a157ce@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.134150.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson,

Up Louisville way we called "Old Crow" "Dirty Bird." I don't member
no "Jim Crow." Sure you ain't merged "Jim Beam" and "Old Crow"?

dInIs


>Absolutely. I'd completely forgotten about Stephen Foster's oeuvre. In
>fact, I can recall that that's how I first learned the form, starting
>in the first grade and ending in the sixth, now that you've reminded
>me. Thank you, Jon. Indeed, we were even taught the song, "Jim Crow!" -
>I've never known who wrote it - in the first grade.
>
>Jump! Oh, jump!
>Oh, jump, Jim Crow!
>[...]
>And around you go!
>Slide! Slide!
>Point your toe!
>You're a funny little fellow
>When you jump, Jim Crow!
>
>There was no PC back in the day. On the other hand, though, "Jim Crow"
>was such a popular brand of whiskey that it had a nickname: "Dirty
>Bird."
>
>-Wilson
>
>On Feb 23, 2005, at 8:04 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>>Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>"Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine
>>to run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana
>>with my banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>>
>>JL
>>
>>Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: Wilson Gray
>>Subject: "Gwine"
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>"Y'all" was so much fun that we should do another one, "gwine," that
>>should be less controversial. I'm no longer certain of how or when I
>>became familiar with this example of old-school Negro dialect. But I do
>>recall hearing it spoken in jest by a schoolmate in Texas around 1947.
>>Otherwise, I was familiar with "gwine" only from the movies, especially
>>George Pal's dumb-nigger animated cartoons and from comic books and
>>such written in Negro dialect. But, similarly to "y'all," as a
>>singular, I never heard it spoken in real life.
>>
>>For years and years, I listened to all kinds of blues and rhythm &
>>blues, talked with colored folk from all over the South, and the
>>closest that I came to hearing a real "gwine" was "goina." Then, one
>>evening in 1979, I was listening to an interview with Sunnyland Slim,
>>an old-time blues pianist and a native of Mississsippi, on the local
>>NPR station, when I heard him say quite clearly, "They was gwine
>>broke!" My reaction was, "Damn! It's true! In fact, it's still a living
>>form!" Then I noticed that Memphis "She plays guitar like a man" Minnie
>>used "gwine." That was odd, because I'd been listening to her songs for
>>years without hearing any "gwine." But that mystery solved itself.
>>Sometimes, Minnie chose to use "gwine"; other times she chose to use
>>"gon(na)." I assume that she originally used "gwine," shifting over
>>time to "gon(na)," as "gwine" fell out of fashion. But that's just a
>>guess.
>>
>>Sunnyland Slim and Memphis Minnie are both now deceased. Has "gwine"
>>finally died with them?
>>
>>-Wilson Gray
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


From hpst at EARTHLINK.NET  Wed Feb 23 18:59:17 2005
From: hpst at EARTHLINK.NET (Page Stephens)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:59:17 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.135917.0500.HPST@EARTHLINK.NET>

It wasn't Stephen Foster.

http://www.answers.com/topic/jump-jim-crow

Page Stephens

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: "Gwine"


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Absolutely. I'd completely forgotten about Stephen Foster's oeuvre. In
> fact, I can recall that that's how I first learned the form, starting
> in the first grade and ending in the sixth, now that you've reminded
> me. Thank you, Jon. Indeed, we were even taught the song, "Jim Crow!" -
> I've never known who wrote it - in the first grade.
>
> Jump! Oh, jump!
> Oh, jump, Jim Crow!
> [...]
> And around you go!
> Slide! Slide!
> Point your toe!
> You're a funny little fellow
> When you jump, Jim Crow!
>
> There was no PC back in the day. On the other hand, though, "Jim Crow"
> was such a popular brand of whiskey that it had a nickname: "Dirty
> Bird."
>
> -Wilson
>
> On Feb 23, 2005, at 8:04 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>> "Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine
>> to run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana
>> with my banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>>
>> JL
>>
>> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>> Subject: "Gwine"
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>> "Y'all" was so much fun that we should do another one, "gwine," that
>> should be less controversial. I'm no longer certain of how or when I
>> became familiar with this example of old-school Negro dialect. But I do
>> recall hearing it spoken in jest by a schoolmate in Texas around 1947.
>> Otherwise, I was familiar with "gwine" only from the movies, especially
>> George Pal's dumb-nigger animated cartoons and from comic books and
>> such written in Negro dialect. But, similarly to "y'all," as a
>> singular, I never heard it spoken in real life.
>>
>> For years and years, I listened to all kinds of blues and rhythm &
>> blues, talked with colored folk from all over the South, and the
>> closest that I came to hearing a real "gwine" was "goina." Then, one
>> evening in 1979, I was listening to an interview with Sunnyland Slim,
>> an old-time blues pianist and a native of Mississsippi, on the local
>> NPR station, when I heard him say quite clearly, "They was gwine
>> broke!" My reaction was, "Damn! It's true! In fact, it's still a living
>> form!" Then I noticed that Memphis "She plays guitar like a man" Minnie
>> used "gwine." That was odd, because I'd been listening to her songs for
>> years without hearing any "gwine." But that mystery solved itself.
>> Sometimes, Minnie chose to use "gwine"; other times she chose to use
>> "gon(na)." I assume that she originally used "gwine," shifting over
>> time to "gon(na)," as "gwine" fell out of fashion. But that's just a
>> guess.
>>
>> Sunnyland Slim and Memphis Minnie are both now deceased. Has "gwine"
>> finally died with them?
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>>


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Wed Feb 23 19:01:43 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:01:43 -0800
Subject: tool
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.110143.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from the Firesign Theatre's "The Further Adventures of Nick Danger",
on the LP How Can You Be In Two Places At Once When You're Not Anywhere
At All (1969):

Nancy: Oh Nick, you're such a tool!

(my reading of the scene is that 'stupid person', 'inept person', and
'person being taken advantage of, being used as a tool' are all evoked
by "tool".  various senses of "fool" might be in there, too.)

arnold


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Feb 23 19:11:21 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:11:21 -0800
Subject: Dialects in film
In-Reply-To: <20050222230621.57558.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.111121.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is straying a bit from the original thread, but in the current
Masterpiece Theatre series on PBS, "Island at War," the actor playing the
commander of the German military forces that have occupied a fictional
British Channel Island during World War II takes an interesting approach to
the foreign accent issue.  He manages speech that sounds generically
foreign, avoiding the stereotypical Nazi bully accent.  It's clearly
foreign, and in your "willing suspension of disbelief" mode you can accept
that it MIGHT be German--that is, until he mangles a couple of actual
German words.  He tells the local officials that "this island is now under
the control of the deutsch Wehrmacht" (instead of the deutsche Wehrmacht),
and he consistently calls his assistant, whose name is apparently supposed
to be M?ller, something that sounds more like "moolah."  If he had only
consulted an actual speaker of German to get the few actual German words
right, his approach would be very credible.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 20:36:09 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:36:09 -0500
Subject: "Y'all" redux
In-Reply-To: <435e796d36e13a2290e3f82c7f8a630b@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.153609.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hey, no apology needed!  I was actually criticizing myself for not probing
the earlier writer's example.

At 07:12 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>Jeez, Bev, I'm sorry. I didn't mean my post as a criticism of your
>post. I was just adding some info. Since I'm retired, I use trash TV,
>especially Jerry, Maury, and the Club Comic View show on BET, as my
>informants. On those shows, you will almost never hear a possessive /s/
>used by a black guest and its use is getting to be relatively rare
>among Latins, especially in the phrase, "baby daddy," which BET even
>pluralizes in print as "baby daddies," though you would expect "babies'
>daddies."
>
>-Wilson
>
>On Feb 22, 2005, at 2:51 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
>>Subject:      Re: "Y'all" redux
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>Yes, zero possessive marking would make sense in Black English.  The
>>earlier example may or may not have been BE (I should have asked the
>>writer).
>>
>>At 09:25 PM 2/21/2005, you wrote:
>>>"Y'all house," with "y'all" interpreted as possessive would be
>>>standard
>>>in Black English, if there was a standard version of that dialect.
>>>
>>>-Wilson
>>>
>>>On Feb 21, 2005, at 12:22 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>>
>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>-----------------------
>>>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
>>>>Subject:      Re: "Y'all" redux
>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>--
>>>>--------
>>>>
>>>>"y'all house" as possessive?  I've heard both "y'all's" and
>>>>"y'allses"
>>>>as
>>>>possessive, but not "y'all."  Do you have "y'allses"?
>>>>
>>>>At 07:10 PM 2/19/2005, you wrote:
>>>>>As a white  South Louisianian, I have never heard "Y'all" as a
>>>>>singular
>>>>>pronoun, but the use of "y'all's" and "y'all" as a possessive
>>>>>pronoun
>>>>>is
>>>>>used.(I passed by y'all's/ y'all house yesterday, but y'all weren't
>>>>>home.)
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Wilson Gray" <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>>>>>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:45 PM
>>>>>Subject: "Y'all" redux
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>>>header -----------------------
>>>>>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>>Poster:       Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM>
>>>>>>Subject:      "Y'all" redux
>>>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>-----
>>>>>-----
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In an earlier discussion as to whether Southern-English speakers
>>>>>>could,
>>>>>>would, or did use "y'all" as a singular, a white Mississippian, who
>>>>>>posted directly to me instead of to the list, and I, a black East
>>>>>>Texan, maintained that "y'all" is always plural. Many others didn't
>>>>>>agree and suggested that I might want to read what David Crystal,
>>>>>>in
>>>>>>his "The Stories of English," has to say about his experience of
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>use of "y'all" in Fort Worth, Texas, that experience being that
>>>>>>"y'all"
>>>>>>*is* used as a singular.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In Texas, we say that the West begins at Fort Worth. So, I
>>>>>>suggested
>>>>>>that perhaps there's or some kind of dialect split between East
>>>>>>Texas
>>>>>>and Fort Worth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I have now read what Prof. Crystal has to say. Since I've never
>>>>>>been
>>>>>>farther west in Texas than Longview, I accept Prof. Crystal's
>>>>>>description of the use of "y'all" in a representative metropolitan
>>>>>>area
>>>>>>in West Texas.. However, He also provides a dialect map that shows
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>East Texas, like Mississippi, falls into the region of Southern
>>>>>>English, whereas Fort Worth is located in the region of Western
>>>>>>English.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>So, concerning the "y'all" question, the answer appears to be that
>>>>>>it
>>>>>>depends on where you are and/or whether your informant is back or
>>>>>>white.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-Wilson Gray


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 23 20:52:41 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:52:41 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <E1D41Pw-0000nJ-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.155241.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes. You are correct, sir. It *was* Old Crow that was known as "Dirty
Bird." Folk are friendlier to brands like Jim Beam and Jack Daniel's,
known to their confidants as "Jimmy B." and "Jackie D.," respectively.
For some reason, probably just for the hell of it, a drink that was
known elsewhere as "WPLJ" (white port & lemon juice, celebrated in
several R&B tunes of the '50's) was known in St. Louis as "schoolboy
Scotch." And here's a bit of folk-poetic call-and-response from Los
Angeles:

C. What's the word?
R. Thunderbird!
C. What's the price?
R. Thirty twice! [i.e. $.60; this is from 1957]
C. Who drinks the most?
R. Colored folks!

Which reminds me, although this probably isn't news to people here,
"most" is replaced by "morest" in some versions of BE.

-Wilson

On Feb 23, 2005, at 1:41 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson,
>
> Up Louisville way we called "Old Crow" "Dirty Bird." I don't member
> no "Jim Crow." Sure you ain't merged "Jim Beam" and "Old Crow"?
>
> dInIs
>
>
>> Absolutely. I'd completely forgotten about Stephen Foster's oeuvre. In
>> fact, I can recall that that's how I first learned the form, starting
>> in the first grade and ending in the sixth, now that you've reminded
>> me. Thank you, Jon. Indeed, we were even taught the song, "Jim Crow!"
>> -
>> I've never known who wrote it - in the first grade.
>>
>> Jump! Oh, jump!
>> Oh, jump, Jim Crow!
>> [...]
>> And around you go!
>> Slide! Slide!
>> Point your toe!
>> You're a funny little fellow
>> When you jump, Jim Crow!
>>
>> There was no PC back in the day. On the other hand, though, "Jim Crow"
>> was such a popular brand of whiskey that it had a nickname: "Dirty
>> Bird."
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>> On Feb 23, 2005, at 8:04 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>>> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> "Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine
>>> to run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana
>>> with my banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>>>
>>> JL
>>>
>>> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>>> Subject: "Gwine"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> "Y'all" was so much fun that we should do another one, "gwine," that
>>> should be less controversial. I'm no longer certain of how or when I
>>> became familiar with this example of old-school Negro dialect. But I
>>> do
>>> recall hearing it spoken in jest by a schoolmate in Texas around
>>> 1947.
>>> Otherwise, I was familiar with "gwine" only from the movies,
>>> especially
>>> George Pal's dumb-nigger animated cartoons and from comic books and
>>> such written in Negro dialect. But, similarly to "y'all," as a
>>> singular, I never heard it spoken in real life.
>>>
>>> For years and years, I listened to all kinds of blues and rhythm &
>>> blues, talked with colored folk from all over the South, and the
>>> closest that I came to hearing a real "gwine" was "goina." Then, one
>>> evening in 1979, I was listening to an interview with Sunnyland Slim,
>>> an old-time blues pianist and a native of Mississsippi, on the local
>>> NPR station, when I heard him say quite clearly, "They was gwine
>>> broke!" My reaction was, "Damn! It's true! In fact, it's still a
>>> living
>>> form!" Then I noticed that Memphis "She plays guitar like a man"
>>> Minnie
>>> used "gwine." That was odd, because I'd been listening to her songs
>>> for
>>> years without hearing any "gwine." But that mystery solved itself.
>>> Sometimes, Minnie chose to use "gwine"; other times she chose to use
>>> "gon(na)." I assume that she originally used "gwine," shifting over
>>> time to "gon(na)," as "gwine" fell out of fashion. But that's just a
>>> guess.
>>>
>>> Sunnyland Slim and Memphis Minnie are both now deceased. Has "gwine"
>>> finally died with them?
>>>
>>> -Wilson Gray
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------
>>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 20:41:57 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:41:57 -0500
Subject: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
In-Reply-To: <20050223021831.40907.qmail@web53901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.154157.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've got a new one (to me, at least):  A grad student told me "Hey, bub!"
is commonly used among his friends, and the office assistant, listening in,
said he uses it all the time.  (Both are 25-30, white.)  I asked if "bub"
came from "bubba," and neither one knew; they've just absorbed it as a new
address term for a friend, male or female.  Any comments?

At 09:18 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>OED does a less than satisfactory job with "hello" and variants used as
>simple greetings rather than calls to people at a distance - or
>interjections of surprise.  Part of the reason is no doubt the ambiguity
>of  early exx.
>
>Many of you will be familiar with the widespread canard that "hello" was
>invented by Thomas Edison specifically for use on the newfangled telephone.
>
>Here is an early example of "hollo!" that looks like a simple
>greeting.  (Naturally, not all doubt can be removed.)
>
>1841 Leman Rede Sixteen-String Jack (London: G. H. Davidson, n.d.) 36
>[characters nearly face to face] "Hollo, old boy!  I'm glad to see you
>back again!"
>
>"Hi !" has followed an identical course. OED's 1862 may be misplaced,
>however. And what's the word "car" doing in 1885?  It doesn't seem to be a
>railway car.
>
>By the time we get to F. Scott Fitzgerald in 1920, the cite for "Hi !"
>shows unmistakably  the current usage.
>
>OED doesn't include the universal Southern U.S. "hey!" as an exact
>equivalent of "hi!"  Dating this accurately will also be difficult.  (I
>once thought only Gomer Pyle said it. Travel *is* broadening.)
>
>JL
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.


From preston at MSU.EDU  Wed Feb 23 21:24:35 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:24:35 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <745022e28326e1dc972b67a2de3c4384@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.162435.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Now Wilson; it don't scan with "morest" (do you mean "mosest"). My
version of it had "most" but with CC simplification to "mos."

dInIs



>Yes. You are correct, sir. It *was* Old Crow that was known as "Dirty
>Bird." Folk are friendlier to brands like Jim Beam and Jack Daniel's,
>known to their confidants as "Jimmy B." and "Jackie D.," respectively.
>For some reason, probably just for the hell of it, a drink that was
>known elsewhere as "WPLJ" (white port & lemon juice, celebrated in
>several R&B tunes of the '50's) was known in St. Louis as "schoolboy
>Scotch." And here's a bit of folk-poetic call-and-response from Los
>Angeles:
>
>C. What's the word?
>R. Thunderbird!
>C. What's the price?
>R. Thirty twice! [i.e. $.60; this is from 1957]
>C. Who drinks the most?
>R. Colored folks!
>
>Which reminds me, although this probably isn't news to people here,
>"most" is replaced by "morest" in some versions of BE.
>
>-Wilson
>
>On Feb 23, 2005, at 1:41 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
>>Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>Wilson,
>>
>>Up Louisville way we called "Old Crow" "Dirty Bird." I don't member
>>no "Jim Crow." Sure you ain't merged "Jim Beam" and "Old Crow"?
>>
>>dInIs
>>
>>>Absolutely. I'd completely forgotten about Stephen Foster's oeuvre. In
>>>fact, I can recall that that's how I first learned the form, starting
>>>in the first grade and ending in the sixth, now that you've reminded
>>>me. Thank you, Jon. Indeed, we were even taught the song, "Jim Crow!"
>>>-
>>>I've never known who wrote it - in the first grade.
>>>
>>>Jump! Oh, jump!
>>>Oh, jump, Jim Crow!
>>>[...]
>>>And around you go!
>>>Slide! Slide!
>>>Point your toe!
>>>You're a funny little fellow
>>>When you jump, Jim Crow!
>>>
>>>There was no PC back in the day. On the other hand, though, "Jim Crow"
>>>was such a popular brand of whiskey that it had a nickname: "Dirty
>>>Bird."
>>>
>>>-Wilson
>>>
>>>On Feb 23, 2005, at 8:04 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>
>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>-----------------------
>>>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>>>>Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>--
>>>>--------
>>>>
>>>>"Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine
>>>>to run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana
>>>>with my banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>>>>
>>>>JL
>>>>
>>>>Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>-----------------------
>>>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>>Subject: "Gwine"
>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>--
>>>>--------
>>>>
>>>>"Y'all" was so much fun that we should do another one, "gwine," that
>>>>should be less controversial. I'm no longer certain of how or when I
>>>>became familiar with this example of old-school Negro dialect. But I
>>>>do
>>>>recall hearing it spoken in jest by a schoolmate in Texas around
>>>>1947.
>>>>Otherwise, I was familiar with "gwine" only from the movies,
>>>>especially
>>>>George Pal's dumb-nigger animated cartoons and from comic books and
>>>>such written in Negro dialect. But, similarly to "y'all," as a
>>>>singular, I never heard it spoken in real life.
>>>>
>>>>For years and years, I listened to all kinds of blues and rhythm &
>>>>blues, talked with colored folk from all over the South, and the
>>>>closest that I came to hearing a real "gwine" was "goina." Then, one
>>>>evening in 1979, I was listening to an interview with Sunnyland Slim,
>>>>an old-time blues pianist and a native of Mississsippi, on the local
>>>>NPR station, when I heard him say quite clearly, "They was gwine
>>>>broke!" My reaction was, "Damn! It's true! In fact, it's still a
>>>>living
>>>>form!" Then I noticed that Memphis "She plays guitar like a man"
>>>>Minnie
>>>>used "gwine." That was odd, because I'd been listening to her songs
>>>>for
>>>>years without hearing any "gwine." But that mystery solved itself.
>>>>Sometimes, Minnie chose to use "gwine"; other times she chose to use
>>>>"gon(na)." I assume that she originally used "gwine," shifting over
>>>>time to "gon(na)," as "gwine" fell out of fashion. But that's just a
>>>>guess.
>>>>
>>>>Sunnyland Slim and Memphis Minnie are both now deceased. Has "gwine"
>>>>finally died with them?
>>>>
>>>>-Wilson Gray
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>---------------------------------
>>>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>>>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 23 21:29:14 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:29:14 -0500
Subject: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
In-Reply-To: <E1D43XJ-00005D-01@mx20.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.162914.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wasn't there a character who lived in "Allen's Alley" who said....
Nope. That character said "Howdy, bub," not "Hey, bub."

-Wilson

On Feb 23, 2005, at 3:41 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I've got a new one (to me, at least):  A grad student told me "Hey,
> bub!"
> is commonly used among his friends, and the office assistant,
> listening in,
> said he uses it all the time.  (Both are 25-30, white.)  I asked if
> "bub"
> came from "bubba," and neither one knew; they've just absorbed it as a
> new
> address term for a friend, male or female.  Any comments?
>
> At 09:18 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>> OED does a less than satisfactory job with "hello" and variants used
>> as
>> simple greetings rather than calls to people at a distance - or
>> interjections of surprise.  Part of the reason is no doubt the
>> ambiguity
>> of  early exx.
>>
>> Many of you will be familiar with the widespread canard that "hello"
>> was
>> invented by Thomas Edison specifically for use on the newfangled
>> telephone.
>>
>> Here is an early example of "hollo!" that looks like a simple
>> greeting.  (Naturally, not all doubt can be removed.)
>>
>> 1841 Leman Rede Sixteen-String Jack (London: G. H. Davidson, n.d.) 36
>> [characters nearly face to face] "Hollo, old boy!  I'm glad to see you
>> back again!"
>>
>> "Hi !" has followed an identical course. OED's 1862 may be misplaced,
>> however. And what's the word "car" doing in 1885?  It doesn't seem to
>> be a
>> railway car.
>>
>> By the time we get to F. Scott Fitzgerald in 1920, the cite for "Hi !"
>> shows unmistakably  the current usage.
>>
>> OED doesn't include the universal Southern U.S. "hey!" as an exact
>> equivalent of "hi!"  Dating this accurately will also be difficult.
>> (I
>> once thought only Gomer Pyle said it. Travel *is* broadening.)
>>
>> JL
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>  Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
>


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Wed Feb 23 21:28:08 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 13:28:08 -0800
Subject: illegitament
In-Reply-To: <61cc4a4d0ac1c6814a3f53f6ec4d85b8@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.132808.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And then of course there's former Sen. George McGovern, who ran for
president of the "Unine States."

--On Monday, February 21, 2005 10:12 PM -0500 Wilson Gray
<wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:

> dInIs, I'd like to mention that I spent a goodly portion of my
> childhood and youth in the Uninted States. In fact, I have relatives
> and friends who still live there.
>
> -Wilson



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Wed Feb 23 21:43:32 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:43:32 -0500
Subject: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
In-Reply-To: <ab9f9ff4a964d99929c80f780fdb167f@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.164332.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:29 PM -0500 2/23/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>Wasn't there a character who lived in "Allen's Alley" who said....
>Nope. That character said "Howdy, bub," not "Hey, bub."
>
>-Wilson

I believe it was Ann Landers (although it may have also been Dear
Abby, her twin) who was especially fond of the "Bub" salutation, as
in "Wake up and smell the coffee, Bub".  WAG:  could Ann, nee Eppie
Lederer from a nice Jewish family in Chicago, have truncated "Bub"
from "Bubbeleh"?

larry

>
>On Feb 23, 2005, at 3:41 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
>>Subject:      Re: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>I've got a new one (to me, at least):  A grad student told me "Hey,
>>bub!"
>>is commonly used among his friends, and the office assistant,
>>listening in,
>>said he uses it all the time.  (Both are 25-30, white.)  I asked if
>>"bub"
>>came from "bubba," and neither one knew; they've just absorbed it as a
>>new
>>address term for a friend, male or female.  Any comments?
>>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Wed Feb 23 22:00:53 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:00:53 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <E1D43xQ-0000e2-00@mx09.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.170053.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Damn it! I need a hit of something to wake me up. I appear not even to
be bringing any heat to the discussion, let alone any light. Anyway,
the "morest" (soun' mo' lak [mowIs], of course) bit was meant only as
an aside. It has nothing to do with the poem at all. And my choice of
spelling is also totally arbitrary. Sometimes, I'm in the mood for
eye-dialect. Sometimes, I prefer to use standard spelling or, at other
times, pseudo-phonetic spelling. It's completely whimsical. I guess it
would help if I picked one and then stuck with it. FWIW, I can't say
whether I've ever heard "mosest" or not. It certainly seems like a
possible pronunciation.

-Wilson

On Feb 23, 2005, at 4:24 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Now Wilson; it don't scan with "morest" (do you mean "mosest"). My
> version of it had "most" but with CC simplification to "mos."
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
>> Yes. You are correct, sir. It *was* Old Crow that was known as "Dirty
>> Bird." Folk are friendlier to brands like Jim Beam and Jack Daniel's,
>> known to their confidants as "Jimmy B." and "Jackie D.," respectively.
>> For some reason, probably just for the hell of it, a drink that was
>> known elsewhere as "WPLJ" (white port & lemon juice, celebrated in
>> several R&B tunes of the '50's) was known in St. Louis as "schoolboy
>> Scotch." And here's a bit of folk-poetic call-and-response from Los
>> Angeles:
>>
>> C. What's the word?
>> R. Thunderbird!
>> C. What's the price?
>> R. Thirty twice! [i.e. $.60; this is from 1957]
>> C. Who drinks the most?
>> R. Colored folks!
>>
>> Which reminds me, although this probably isn't news to people here,
>> "most" is replaced by "morest" in some versions of BE.
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>> On Feb 23, 2005, at 1:41 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
>>> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> Wilson,
>>>
>>> Up Louisville way we called "Old Crow" "Dirty Bird." I don't member
>>> no "Jim Crow." Sure you ain't merged "Jim Beam" and "Old Crow"?
>>>
>>> dInIs
>>>
>>>> Absolutely. I'd completely forgotten about Stephen Foster's oeuvre.
>>>> In
>>>> fact, I can recall that that's how I first learned the form,
>>>> starting
>>>> in the first grade and ending in the sixth, now that you've reminded
>>>> me. Thank you, Jon. Indeed, we were even taught the song, "Jim
>>>> Crow!"
>>>> -
>>>> I've never known who wrote it - in the first grade.
>>>>
>>>> Jump! Oh, jump!
>>>> Oh, jump, Jim Crow!
>>>> [...]
>>>> And around you go!
>>>> Slide! Slide!
>>>> Point your toe!
>>>> You're a funny little fellow
>>>> When you jump, Jim Crow!
>>>>
>>>> There was no PC back in the day. On the other hand, though, "Jim
>>>> Crow"
>>>> was such a popular brand of whiskey that it had a nickname: "Dirty
>>>> Bird."
>>>>
>>>> -Wilson
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 23, 2005, at 8:04 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>>>>> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --
>>>>> --
>>>>> --------
>>>>>
>>>>> "Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's
>>>>> "Gwine
>>>>> to run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to
>>>>> Louisiana
>>>>> with my banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>>>>>
>>>>> JL
>>>>>
>>>>> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>>> Subject: "Gwine"
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --
>>>>> --
>>>>> --------
>>>>>
>>>>> "Y'all" was so much fun that we should do another one, "gwine,"
>>>>> that
>>>>> should be less controversial. I'm no longer certain of how or when
>>>>> I
>>>>> became familiar with this example of old-school Negro dialect. But
>>>>> I
>>>>> do
>>>>> recall hearing it spoken in jest by a schoolmate in Texas around
>>>>> 1947.
>>>>> Otherwise, I was familiar with "gwine" only from the movies,
>>>>> especially
>>>>> George Pal's dumb-nigger animated cartoons and from comic books and
>>>>> such written in Negro dialect. But, similarly to "y'all," as a
>>>>> singular, I never heard it spoken in real life.
>>>>>
>>>>> For years and years, I listened to all kinds of blues and rhythm &
>>>>> blues, talked with colored folk from all over the South, and the
>>>>> closest that I came to hearing a real "gwine" was "goina." Then,
>>>>> one
>>>>> evening in 1979, I was listening to an interview with Sunnyland
>>>>> Slim,
>>>>> an old-time blues pianist and a native of Mississsippi, on the
>>>>> local
>>>>> NPR station, when I heard him say quite clearly, "They was gwine
>>>>> broke!" My reaction was, "Damn! It's true! In fact, it's still a
>>>>> living
>>>>> form!" Then I noticed that Memphis "She plays guitar like a man"
>>>>> Minnie
>>>>> used "gwine." That was odd, because I'd been listening to her songs
>>>>> for
>>>>> years without hearing any "gwine." But that mystery solved itself.
>>>>> Sometimes, Minnie chose to use "gwine"; other times she chose to
>>>>> use
>>>>> "gon(na)." I assume that she originally used "gwine," shifting over
>>>>> time to "gon(na)," as "gwine" fell out of fashion. But that's just
>>>>> a
>>>>> guess.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sunnyland Slim and Memphis Minnie are both now deceased. Has
>>>>> "gwine"
>>>>> finally died with them?
>>>>>
>>>>> -Wilson Gray
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------
>>>>> Do you Yahoo!?
>>>>>  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Wed Feb 23 22:08:33 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:08:33 -0600
Subject: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
In-Reply-To: <p04320410be42a8fd1965@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.160833.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>At 4:29 PM -0500 2/23/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>Wasn't there a character who lived in "Allen's Alley" who said....
>>Nope. That character said "Howdy, bub," not "Hey, bub."
>>
>>-Wilson
>
>I believe it was Ann Landers (although it may have also been Dear
>Abby, her twin) who was especially fond of the "Bub" salutation, as
>in "Wake up and smell the coffee, Bub".

That sounds much more like Ann Landers than Dear Abby. She tended to
be a little more acerbic than her sister.

Barbara


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 22:29:44 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 14:29:44 -0800
Subject: "Gwine"
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.142944.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's a picture of one sheet music version of "Jump Jim Crow."  Others are findable. It was written by Thomas Rice - the original professional blackface entertainer - about 1828 and was a transatlantic hit for decades.  George W. Dixon, possibly the author (ca1834) of "Old Zip Coon," may also have portrayed the "Jim Crow" character, and this particular set of verses features his name.

http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl?record=017.116.000&pages=2

I am a mere amateur in these matters, and will defer to George in any details.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: "Gwine"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Absolutely. I'd completely forgotten about Stephen Foster's oeuvre. In
fact, I can recall that that's how I first learned the form, starting
in the first grade and ending in the sixth, now that you've reminded
me. Thank you, Jon. Indeed, we were even taught the song, "Jim Crow!" -
I've never known who wrote it - in the first grade.

Jump! Oh, jump!
Oh, jump, Jim Crow!
[...]
And around you go!
Slide! Slide!
Point your toe!
You're a funny little fellow
When you jump, Jim Crow!

There was no PC back in the day. On the other hand, though, "Jim Crow"
was such a popular brand of whiskey that it had a nickname: "Dirty
Bird."

-Wilson

On Feb 23, 2005, at 8:04 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine
> to run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana
> with my banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "Y'all" was so much fun that we should do another one, "gwine," that
> should be less controversial. I'm no longer certain of how or when I
> became familiar with this example of old-school Negro dialect. But I do
> recall hearing it spoken in jest by a schoolmate in Texas around 1947.
> Otherwise, I was familiar with "gwine" only from the movies, especially
> George Pal's dumb-nigger animated cartoons and from comic books and
> such written in Negro dialect. But, similarly to "y'all," as a
> singular, I never heard it spoken in real life.
>
> For years and years, I listened to all kinds of blues and rhythm &
> blues, talked with colored folk from all over the South, and the
> closest that I came to hearing a real "gwine" was "goina." Then, one
> evening in 1979, I was listening to an interview with Sunnyland Slim,
> an old-time blues pianist and a native of Mississsippi, on the local
> NPR station, when I heard him say quite clearly, "They was gwine
> broke!" My reaction was, "Damn! It's true! In fact, it's still a living
> form!" Then I noticed that Memphis "She plays guitar like a man" Minnie
> used "gwine." That was odd, because I'd been listening to her songs for
> years without hearing any "gwine." But that mystery solved itself.
> Sometimes, Minnie chose to use "gwine"; other times she chose to use
> "gon(na)." I assume that she originally used "gwine," shifting over
> time to "gon(na)," as "gwine" fell out of fashion. But that's just a
> guess.
>
> Sunnyland Slim and Memphis Minnie are both now deceased. Has "gwine"
> finally died with them?
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 22:34:23 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 14:34:23 -0800
Subject: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.143423.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"Bub" goes back to the 19th C.  In fact, I used to say it a lot in grammar school !

J "So Old He's Hip Again" L

Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Beverly Flanigan
Subject: Re: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've got a new one (to me, at least): A grad student told me "Hey, bub!"
is commonly used among his friends, and the office assistant, listening in,
said he uses it all the time. (Both are 25-30, white.) I asked if "bub"
came from "bubba," and neither one knew; they've just absorbed it as a new
address term for a friend, male or female. Any comments?

At 09:18 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
>OED does a less than satisfactory job with "hello" and variants used as
>simple greetings rather than calls to people at a distance - or
>interjections of surprise. Part of the reason is no doubt the ambiguity
>of early exx.
>
>Many of you will be familiar with the widespread canard that "hello" was
>invented by Thomas Edison specifically for use on the newfangled telephone.
>
>Here is an early example of "hollo!" that looks like a simple
>greeting. (Naturally, not all doubt can be removed.)
>
>1841 Leman Rede Sixteen-String Jack (London: G. H. Davidson, n.d.) 36
>[characters nearly face to face] "Hollo, old boy! I'm glad to see you
>back again!"
>
>"Hi !" has followed an identical course. OED's 1862 may be misplaced,
>however. And what's the word "car" doing in 1885? It doesn't seem to be a
>railway car.
>
>By the time we get to F. Scott Fitzgerald in 1920, the cite for "Hi !"
>shows unmistakably the current usage.
>
>OED doesn't include the universal Southern U.S. "hey!" as an exact
>equivalent of "hi!" Dating this accurately will also be difficult. (I
>once thought only Gomer Pyle said it. Travel *is* broadening.)
>
>JL
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Wed Feb 23 23:17:06 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:17:06 -0600
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.171706.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

  The wife of a colleague has asked me about slang "scootch" (move a small amount), a term I had never heard before. The term clearly derives from "scoot," but how did -ch get added to it?

     The Online slang Dictionary (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wrader/slang/s.html)
says only:
 scootch   v   1. move a small amount; SCOOT. ("Scootch your seat over here."   "We'll just scootch them together.")  Submitted by Kay Turner, Bella Vista, AR, USA, 28-11-2002.

   Meanwhile, the woman who asked me about "scootch" indicates that her family has been familiar with the term for some time:

"[...]It sounds like a blend to me.  But blending "scoot" with what?  I can't think of a "ch" word that means to move over a little without picking the object or oneself up off the surface.  I also have the impression that it's used - at least in my family - to mean to move over a smaller distance than a "scoot" would require.  Like a "smidgen."

Any ideas?  She's 90 [i.e. her mother-in-law] - just had a big celebration for her in KC over the weekend, and sure enough, the word came up - often - and she mentioned she surely would like to know how and when we started putting the "ch" on "scoot" - and why.  She's mentioned this in previous years, but with family from all over the country and Canada there - all using the term - it became a real curiosity for us all.  Would please an old lady who is an appreciator of words to have an answer! [...]"

 Would anyone in ads-l have any suggestions on this?

Gerald Cohen


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 23:18:04 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:18:04 -0800
Subject: y'all redux
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.151804.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The blog comments are indeed interesting.  Let me join Alice in recommending them to your attention.

"All y'all" is emphatic and to be distinguished from "some of y'all" rather than "you."

JL

Alice Faber <faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Alice Faber
Organization: Haskins Laboratories
Subject: Re: y'all redux
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> Then how explain the occasional Southerner who admits to occasional singularity?
>
> Most people, one assumes, don't often monitor their own speech for absolute semantic precision. Whatever the observable facts of "singularity," the *average* Southern speaker, I believe, is far more likely to admit the possibility of occasional singularity than are sophisticated Southerners with an interest in language.
>
> Just another damyankee hypothesis.
>

The comments on that blog entry I pointed to yesterday were mostly about
"y'all", singular or plural. I think those posters would count as
literate, self-aware non-linguists. While some commenters were as
insistent as any ADS-Ler that singular "y'all" is an unattested
monstrosity, there were other reasonable-sounding reports of unambiguous
singular "y'all".

(For those who didn't follow the link, the blog is
, and the comments would have been to
yesterday's entry.

--

Alice Faber

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb 23 23:18:36 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:18:36 -0600
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.171836.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Related, maybe, to "skosh" (long o, I don't know how to write it in
ASCII), Wisconsinese for a small amount?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard
> Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 5:17 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU>
> Subject:      Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
>   The wife of a colleague has asked me about slang "scootch"
> (move a small amount), a term I had never heard before. The
> term clearly derives from "scoot," but how did -ch get added to it?
>
>      The Online slang Dictionary
> (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wrader/slang/s.html)
> says only:
>  scootch   v   1. move a small amount; SCOOT. ("Scootch your
> seat over here."   "We'll just scootch them together.")
> Submitted by Kay Turner, Bella Vista, AR, USA, 28-11-2002.
>
>    Meanwhile, the woman who asked me about "scootch"
> indicates that her family has been familiar with the term for
> some time:
>
> "[...]It sounds like a blend to me.  But blending "scoot"
> with what?  I can't think of a "ch" word that means to move
> over a little without picking the object or oneself up off
> the surface.  I also have the impression that it's used - at
> least in my family - to mean to move over a smaller distance
> than a "scoot" would require.  Like a "smidgen."
>
> Any ideas?  She's 90 [i.e. her mother-in-law] - just had a
> big celebration for her in KC over the weekend, and sure
> enough, the word came up - often - and she mentioned she
> surely would like to know how and when we started putting the
> "ch" on "scoot" - and why.  She's mentioned this in previous
> years, but with family from all over the country and Canada
> there - all using the term - it became a real curiosity for
> us all.  Would please an old lady who is an appreciator of
> words to have an answer! [...]"
>
>  Would anyone in ads-l have any suggestions on this?
>
> Gerald Cohen
>


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Wed Feb 23 23:24:41 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:24:41 -0600
Subject: Dialects in films
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.172441.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 Some of the cops in "The Fugitive" (the Harrison Ford version) have
strong, strong Chicago accents.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Wed Feb 23 23:27:14 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:27:14 -0800
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.152714.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think it's a lot older than Japanese-derived "skosh."  Always assumed it's just "scoot" with a palatalized final consonant, maybe originally before "over."

FWIW

JL

"Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
Subject: Re: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Related, maybe, to "skosh" (long o, I don't know how to write it in
ASCII), Wisconsinese for a small amount?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Cohen, Gerald Leonard
> Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 5:17 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard"
> Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> The wife of a colleague has asked me about slang "scootch"
> (move a small amount), a term I had never heard before. The
> term clearly derives from "scoot," but how did -ch get added to it?
>
> The Online slang Dictionary
> (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wrader/slang/s.html)
> says only:
> scootch v 1. move a small amount; SCOOT. ("Scootch your
> seat over here." "We'll just scootch them together.")
> Submitted by Kay Turner, Bella Vista, AR, USA, 28-11-2002.
>
> Meanwhile, the woman who asked me about "scootch"
> indicates that her family has been familiar with the term for
> some time:
>
> "[...]It sounds like a blend to me. But blending "scoot"
> with what? I can't think of a "ch" word that means to move
> over a little without picking the object or oneself up off
> the surface. I also have the impression that it's used - at
> least in my family - to mean to move over a smaller distance
> than a "scoot" would require. Like a "smidgen."
>
> Any ideas? She's 90 [i.e. her mother-in-law] - just had a
> big celebration for her in KC over the weekend, and sure
> enough, the word came up - often - and she mentioned she
> surely would like to know how and when we started putting the
> "ch" on "scoot" - and why. She's mentioned this in previous
> years, but with family from all over the country and Canada
> there - all using the term - it became a real curiosity for
> us all. Would please an old lady who is an appreciator of
> words to have an answer! [...]"
>
> Would anyone in ads-l have any suggestions on this?
>
> Gerald Cohen
>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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From douglas at NB.NET  Wed Feb 23 23:33:00 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:33:00 -0500
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA7C5@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.a
 rmy.mil>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.183300.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Related, maybe, to "skosh" (long o, I don't know how to write it in
>ASCII), Wisconsinese for a small amount?

I would suppose (I don't have evidence) that "skosh" is more West-Coastish
if it's regional at all.

I had the same notion but I don't know whether it holds any water or not:

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0408D&L=ads-l&P=R2

-- Doug Wilson


From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Feb 23 23:45:23 2005
From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:45:23 -0800
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
In-Reply-To: <200502232332.j1NNWuqH019299@mxe1.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.154523.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The only person I've EVER heard use it is from British Columbia -- and she
uses "skosh."

Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Douglas G. Wilson wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET>
> Subject:      Re: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>> Related, maybe, to "skosh" (long o, I don't know how to write it in
>> ASCII), Wisconsinese for a small amount?
>
> I would suppose (I don't have evidence) that "skosh" is more West-Coastish
> if it's regional at all.
>
> I had the same notion but I don't know whether it holds any water or not:
>
> http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0408D&L=ads-l&P=R2
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>


From patty at CRUZIO.COM  Wed Feb 23 23:50:56 2005
From: patty at CRUZIO.COM (Patty Davies)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:50:56 -0800
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
In-Reply-To: <A7704766F9EE3949B30D5BF6297999A21B86FA@UMR-CMAIL3.umr.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.155056.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 03:17 PM 2/23/05, you wrote:
>   The wife of a colleague has asked me about slang "scootch" (move a
> small amount), a term I had never heard before. The term clearly derives
> from "scoot," but how did -ch get added to it?
>
>      The Online slang Dictionary
> (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wrader/slang/s.html)
>says only:
>  scootch   v   1. move a small amount; SCOOT. ("Scootch your seat over
> here."   "We'll just scootch them together.")  Submitted by Kay Turner,
> Bella Vista, AR, USA, 28-11-2002.
>
>    Meanwhile, the woman who asked me about "scootch" indicates that her
> family has been familiar with the term for some time:
>
>"[...]It sounds like a blend to me.  But blending "scoot" with what?  I
>can't think of a "ch" word that means to move over a little without
>picking the object or oneself up off the surface.  I also have the
>impression that it's used - at least in my family - to mean to move over a
>smaller distance than a "scoot" would require.  Like a "smidgen."
>
>Any ideas?  She's 90 [i.e. her mother-in-law] - just had a big celebration
>for her in KC over the weekend, and sure enough, the word came up - often
>- and she mentioned she surely would like to know how and when we started
>putting the "ch" on "scoot" - and why.  She's mentioned this in previous
>years, but with family from all over the country and Canada there - all
>using the term - it became a real curiosity for us all.  Would please an
>old lady who is an appreciator of words to have an answer! [...]"
>
>  Would anyone in ads-l have any suggestions on this?
>
>Gerald Cohen


I don't have any information on origin but I have heard & used 'scootch'
all my life -  I'm almost 50, West coast, southern Calif .  More often used
with scootching over rather than scootch down.

Patty


From eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU  Wed Feb 23 23:56:04 2005
From: eulenbrg at U.WASHINGTON.EDU (J. Eulenberg)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 15:56:04 -0800
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
In-Reply-To: <200502232350.j1NNo9Mc006830@mxe4.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.155604.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I failed to read the entire set of discussions.  In addition to my
friend's "skosh," I have certainly heard and used "scootch," as in
"scootch down this way" and "scootch together" both.  Is this my lingering
Dallas "dialect" again?

Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Patty Davies wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Patty Davies <patty at CRUZIO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 03:17 PM 2/23/05, you wrote:
>>   The wife of a colleague has asked me about slang "scootch" (move a
>> small amount), a term I had never heard before. The term clearly derives
>> from "scoot," but how did -ch get added to it?
>>
>>      The Online slang Dictionary
>> (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wrader/slang/s.html)
>> says only:
>>  scootch   v   1. move a small amount; SCOOT. ("Scootch your seat over
>> here."   "We'll just scootch them together.")  Submitted by Kay Turner,
>> Bella Vista, AR, USA, 28-11-2002.
>>
>>    Meanwhile, the woman who asked me about "scootch" indicates that her
>> family has been familiar with the term for some time:
>>
>> "[...]It sounds like a blend to me.  But blending "scoot" with what?  I
>> can't think of a "ch" word that means to move over a little without
>> picking the object or oneself up off the surface.  I also have the
>> impression that it's used - at least in my family - to mean to move over a
>> smaller distance than a "scoot" would require.  Like a "smidgen."
>>
>> Any ideas?  She's 90 [i.e. her mother-in-law] - just had a big celebration
>> for her in KC over the weekend, and sure enough, the word came up - often
>> - and she mentioned she surely would like to know how and when we started
>> putting the "ch" on "scoot" - and why.  She's mentioned this in previous
>> years, but with family from all over the country and Canada there - all
>> using the term - it became a real curiosity for us all.  Would please an
>> old lady who is an appreciator of words to have an answer! [...]"
>>
>>  Would anyone in ads-l have any suggestions on this?
>>
>> Gerald Cohen
>
>
> I don't have any information on origin but I have heard & used 'scootch'
> all my life -  I'm almost 50, West coast, southern Calif .  More often used
> with scootching over rather than scootch down.
>
> Patty
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 24 00:17:37 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:17:37 -0500
Subject: Dialects in films
In-Reply-To: <E1D45sC-0007V4-00@mx02.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.191737.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

So has William Peterson of the original CSI. Well, it's an
easily-recognizable, Chicago-area accent, at least, since he's from
Evanston.

FWIW, the marker for me is the distinctive pronunciation of words like
"are, bar, car, far, tar," etc., regardless of whether the speaker is
black or white. I'm familiar with the SNL parody of the Chicago accent,
but it was the Chicago -ar(e) that caught my attention, back in the
'50's. In those days, it was customary for young black men from St.
Louis to go to Chicago to work in the post office during the Chris-,
uh, I mean, the holiday-season holidays.

-Wilson

On Feb 23, 2005, at 6:24 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject:      Re: Dialects in films
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>  Some of the cops in "The Fugitive" (the Harrison Ford version) have
> strong, strong Chicago accents.
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb 24 02:29:30 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 21:29:30 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <745022e28326e1dc972b67a2de3c4384@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.212930.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 3:52 PM -0500 2/23/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>Yes. You are correct, sir. It *was* Old Crow that was known as "Dirty
>Bird." Folk are friendlier to brands like Jim Beam and Jack Daniel's,

reminds me of a line I liked in "Monster's Ball" (speaking of movies):

My husband used to LOVE him some Jack Daniel's.
-Leticia (Halle Berry's character) to Hank (Billy Bob Thornton's) in
"Monster's Ball"

The referent is of course the (African-American) man who was put to
death earlier in the movie.  (I like the line for the "personal
dative", but I don't mind me some Jackie D on occasion myself,
although I usually go for non-schoolboy scotch.)

>known to their confidants as "Jimmy B." and "Jackie D.," respectively.
>For some reason, probably just for the hell of it, a drink that was
>known elsewhere as "WPLJ" (white port & lemon juice, celebrated in
>several R&B tunes of the '50's)

Any relation to the very high-profile alternative rock radio station
in New York with those call letters, I wonder?  (Maybe it's not
alternative rock these days, I wouldn't know, but it was in the 70s.)

larry

>was known in St. Louis as "schoolboy
>Scotch."


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb 24 02:40:05 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 21:40:05 -0500
Subject: Dialects in films
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA7C7@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.214005.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:24 PM -0600 2/23/05, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>  Some of the cops in "The Fugitive" (the Harrison Ford version) have
>strong, strong Chicago accents.

...as does Dennis Franz, who plays detective (and now Sergeant) Andy
Sipowicz on NYPD Blue, just coming to the end of its multi-year run.
Unfortunately, he's supposed to be a native New Yorker, which his
vowels don't allow him to be.  (No reason they couldn't have had him
emigrate to New York from Chicago to begin with, but they didn't
bother.)

Larry


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Thu Feb 24 03:48:42 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 22:48:42 -0500
Subject: Bourbon,
In-Reply-To: <p04320401be42eb1bc10c@[130.132.231.183]>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.224842.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This is not a linguistic post.  Well, I guess parts of it are.

For a good bourbon, I suggest Evan Williams.  Aged longer than JB and JD,
and cheaper.  Goes down smooth.  Good stuff.  Makes great red eye gravy when
frying Cumberland Gap ham. Add some apple slices when frying, and even a bit
of hard cider or apple brandy for a goooood gravy (known in France as jus,
in most of the US as au jus).  Evan Williams is KY bourbon to boot, as
opposed that JB stuff, TN whiskey, therefore not bourbon.

I am NOT prejudiced.

I haven't checked the ADS files, but I assume that someone has noticed that
whiskey seems to be Celtic in  origin: Irish, Scotch, KY, TN(ok, ok, I'll
let them TN folks in because it strenghtens my argument).  And then there is
Canadian, which to me is rye, but to Northerners, whiskey.  And an awful lot
of those Canadians are of Scots and Irish origin.

Jim Stalker, b. Louisville, KY, in the bourbon district.

stalker at msudu


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Thu Feb 24 04:04:52 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:04:52 -0500
Subject: Query about slang =?utf-8?Q?=22scootch=22--?= Why -ch?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.A41.4.61b.0502231554560.284360@homer04.u.washington.edu>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.230452.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Scootch over,more common than down, is part of my vocabulary: KY, b. 1940.
But, I've lived in NY, NC, WI, and MI (forever). I learned skoosh later, I
think, but memory is unreliable.  My guess?  Scootch is not a dervative of
skoosh.  The scoot origin is a better guess.  why the ch, the original
question?  One way to adhere to the Politeness Principle is to alter the
phonology: Geez (Jesus), shucks (shit), gosh darn (God damn).  Scootch is a
mitigated form of scoot, a polite request, rather than an order.

Jim Stalker

J. Eulenberg writes:

> I failed to read the entire set of discussions.  In addition to my
> friend's "skosh," I have certainly heard and used "scootch," as in
> "scootch down this way" and "scootch together" both.  Is this my lingering
> Dallas "dialect" again?
>
> Julia Niebuhr Eulenberg <eulenbrg at u.washington.edu>
>
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Patty Davies wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Patty Davies <patty at CRUZIO.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ------
>>
>> At 03:17 PM 2/23/05, you wrote:
>>>   The wife of a colleague has asked me about slang "scootch" (move a
>>> small amount), a term I had never heard before. The term clearly derives
>>> from "scoot," but how did -ch get added to it?
>>>
>>>      The Online slang Dictionary
>>> (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wrader/slang/s.html)
>>> says only:
>>>  scootch   v   1. move a small amount; SCOOT. ("Scootch your seat over
>>> here."   "We'll just scootch them together.")  Submitted by Kay Turner,
>>> Bella Vista, AR, USA, 28-11-2002.
>>>
>>>    Meanwhile, the woman who asked me about "scootch" indicates that her
>>> family has been familiar with the term for some time:
>>>
>>> "[...]It sounds like a blend to me.  But blending "scoot" with what?  I
>>> can't think of a "ch" word that means to move over a little without
>>> picking the object or oneself up off the surface.  I also have the
>>> impression that it's used - at least in my family - to mean to move over
>>> a
>>> smaller distance than a "scoot" would require.  Like a "smidgen."
>>>
>>> Any ideas?  She's 90 [i.e. her mother-in-law] - just had a big
>>> celebration
>>> for her in KC over the weekend, and sure enough, the word came up -
>>> often
>>> - and she mentioned she surely would like to know how and when we
>>> started
>>> putting the "ch" on "scoot" - and why.  She's mentioned this in previous
>>> years, but with family from all over the country and Canada there - all
>>> using the term - it became a real curiosity for us all.  Would please an
>>> old lady who is an appreciator of words to have an answer! [...]"
>>>
>>>  Would anyone in ads-l have any suggestions on this?
>>>
>>> Gerald Cohen
>>
>>
>> I don't have any information on origin but I have heard & used 'scootch'
>> all my life -  I'm almost 50, West coast, southern Calif .  More often
>> used
>> with scootching over rather than scootch down.
>>
>> Patty
>>
>



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Thu Feb 24 04:50:30 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:50:30 -0500
Subject: y'all redux
In-Reply-To: <20050223044853.26422.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <WED.23.FEB.2005.235030.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Sorry JL.  Not just another damnyankee hypothesis.  I spent the first 22
years of my life in KY and NC, and many years of the rest of my life
defending my native KY dialect.   My wife, a native of VA and KY, adamantly
insists that she uses singular yall, and has for years.  I check these
postings with the one who really knows.  After all, I'm just KY.  She's
tidewater VA and KY. This yall=singular posting is a repetative one, and
interesting because it is repetitive. Something hasn't  been resolved or
solved.  I think yall are (is) making assumptions based on an email address
rather than knowledge about the informant.

You have made an interesting statement: "*Average* Southern speaker. . .far
more likely to admit the possibility of occassional singularity than are
sophisticated Southerners with an interest in language?"  Therefore, I
reckon average "unsophisticated" Southern speakers don't know nothin about
their language, can't make judgments about their language. Only we linguists
can?  If they claim "occasional" singuarity, they must  be wrong because we
sophisticated linguists know they are wrong?

I think my original post is perhaps proved by your response.  We are dealing
with pragmatic presuppositions rather than grammatical agreement.

JS


Jonathan Lighter writes:

> Then how explain the occasional Southerner who admits to occasional singularity?
>
> Most people, one assumes, don't often monitor their own speech for absolute semantic precision.  Whatever the observable facts of "singularity," the *average* Southern speaker, I believe, is far more likely to admit the possibility of occasional singularity than are sophisticated Southerners with an interest in language.
>
> Just another damyankee hypothesis.
>
> JL
>
>
> James C Stalker <stalker at MSU.EDU> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: James C Stalker
> Subject: Re: y'all redux
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Maybe our problem here is not a grammatical one of singularity/plurality,
> but a pragmatic one of mutual contextual knowlege and beliefs (a la, Bach
> and Harnish). Southerners (self proclaimed, on this list) deny singularity.
> Non-Southerners (apparently, or by long disassociation with native dialect)
> claim to hear singularity. This posting suggests that we are dealing with
> expectations (i. e., presuppositions) rather than grammaticality. For
> Southerners, the implicature is always plural. "Northerners" do not share
> the mutual contextual knowledge with "Southerners," therefore interpret the
> context grammatically rather than pragmatically.
>
> Jim Stalker
>
> Majors, Tivoli writes:
>
>> I'm from Dallas so I thought I'd weigh in on the whole y'all thing. We used to argue about this in grad school at UT all the time. Generally, it was yankees who would say they heard y'all used in the singular. Us Texans would vehemently deny the possibiility. What I think may be going on is that when we southerners use y'all, it always has a plural intention, but may not seem to to outsiders. So if someone were to say to me "Did y'all enjoy that movie?" I would understand that to be addressed to me, anyone who saw the movie with me, and even anyone loosely affiliated with me. My assumption would not be that they meant me myself alone. In fact, I'd say that meaning is not allowable in my dialect. I can't speak for others, of course, but we Texans were generally in agreement on this point. None of us was from West Texas, but Ft. Worth is just a stone's throw from Dallas, so I'm still a little dubious.
>>
>
>
>
> James C. Stalker
> Department of English
> Michigan State University
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Thu Feb 24 05:08:08 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:08:08 -0500
Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=22Coca-Cola=22/=22Coke=22?= (in Tanzania)
 =?utf-8?Q?=3D?= something easy, a given, no problem
In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050222214658.02faa590@pop3.nb.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.000808.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember an ad campaign for Coke which used the slogan "it's the real
thing."  Might derive from that, especially in a different language where
the translation of "real" might possibly include "given" or "true" or
"inevitable"?

Jim Stalker


Douglas G. Wilson writes:

>
>> When I was in Tanzania (TZ) I was speaking with my guide about all kinds
>> of cultural points of interest, and this came up in conversation around a
>> political race that was in progress at the time.  This particular
>> candidate was a sure thing for winning the seat.  Everyone knew it and
>> called it, "Coke."
>
> It sure looks like "cake": e.g., "This is a cake assignment", "It's a
> piece
> of cake", "It was no cakewalk". Offhand I don't know the etymological
> connection (if any) between "cake" and "cakewalk" here, and I don't know
> how "coke" is connected (if it is).
>
> -- Doug Wilson
>



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From vnend at ADELPHIA.NET  Thu Feb 24 05:14:48 2005
From: vnend at ADELPHIA.NET (David W. James)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 00:14:48 -0500
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
In-Reply-To: <20050223235010.FGOX1547.mta2.adelphia.net@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.001448.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 23, 2005, at 6:50 PM, Patty Davies wrote:
> I don't have any information on origin but I have heard & used
> 'scootch'
> all my life -  I'm almost 50, West coast, southern Calif .  More often
> used
> with scootching over rather than scootch down.

> Patty

Ditto but for location.  We moved a lot, but mostly midwest.  Also
'just a scootch' when directing movement of a table or chair.

David


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Feb 24 07:13:51 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 02:13:51 -0500
Subject: Guff
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.021351.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 11:18:28 -0500, Jesse Sheidlower <jester at PANIX.COM>
wrote:

>On Wed, Feb 23, 2005 at 04:14:34PM +0000, Jonathon Green wrote:
>>
>> I sent this earlier; for reasons I don't understand it seems
>> to have gone to Ben Zimmer only.
>
>Ben specifically sends his messages with a reply-to header set
>to his address only. Thus if you reply to an ADS-L message sent
>by him, it will go to him and not the list, unless you add ADS-L
>yourself or use your mail program's "group reply" function.

Thanks to Jesse for alerting me to this.  I hadn't even realized I had the
"Reply-To" header in there.  I've removed it now and hope that it will no
longer be an annoyance to those replying to my posts.


--Ben Zimmer


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Thu Feb 24 08:19:17 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 03:19:17 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.031917.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
the alt.usage.english newsgroup.  For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
or "raucous").

I was surprised that I couldn't find anything in the databases before 1987
(and even then mostly from one writer, L.A. Times rock critic Duncan
Strauss).  I would've guessed that it dates back at least to the late
'70s, from either the punk-rock or arena-rock scenes.

-----
Courier-Mail, Mar 12, 1987 (Nexis)
Well, from the deep south of the good ol' US of A comes a band who just
might restore your faith in honest rawk 'n' rowl - the Georgia Satellites.
-----
mod.music.gaffa, Apr 6, 1987 (Usenet)
Fortunately, "Solitude Standing" is not the "rawk-and-roll" album many
feared; once again, the arrangements are as simple, lovely and unadorned
as her voice, heavy on the acoustic guitar.
-----
Los Angeles Times, Jul 10, 1987, Calendar p. 25 (Proquest)
Hard-rock outlet KNAC-FM in Long Beach is already regularly playing the
album's first single, "The Name Is Love," an AC/DC-ish rawker.
-----
Los Angeles Times, Jul 26, 1987, Calendar p. 89 (Proquest)
Ticking off the disparate artists who've performed there in recent months
- including ... local rawk squad Dream Syndicate - Chelew suddenly seemed
struck by the diversity of the roster.
-----
Los Angeles Times, Nov 23, 1987, Calendar p. 9 (Proquest)
But performing the song live, these poster children for thrift shop
apparel played up both the funk and the group's colorful personality and
downplayed the hard rawk - though new guitarist Errol Stewart indulged in
a bit of fiery fret-grinding.
-----
Los Angeles Times, Dec 6, 1987, Calendar p. 92 (Proquest)
Not that Foreigner is simply recycling the sonic assault of such melodic
rawk fare as "Feels Like the First Time" and "Cold as Ice."
-----
Los Angeles Times, Dec 25, 1987, Calendar p. 1 (Proquest)
The third group was Breakfast With Amy, which quickly staked out a
psychedelic-garage rawk territory.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 24 13:55:29 2005
From: jsmithjamessmith at YAHOO.COM (James Smith)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 05:55:29 -0800
Subject: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050223153827.0310cd08@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.055529.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Several of my 70- to 80-something neighbors routinely
say "Hey, bud" or "Hey, buddy".  I think of "bub" as
just a variant on "bud".



--- Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU> wrote:

> I've got a new one (to me, at least):  A grad
> student told me "Hey, bub!"
> is commonly used among his friends, and the office
> assistant, listening in,
> said he uses it all the time.  (Both are 25-30,
> white.)  I asked if "bub"
> came from "bubba," and neither one knew; they've
> just absorbed it as a new
> address term for a friend, male or female.  Any
> comments?
>
> At 09:18 PM 2/22/2005, you wrote:
> >OED does a less than satisfactory job with "hello"
> and variants used as
> >simple greetings rather than calls to people at a
> distance - or
> >interjections of surprise.  Part of the reason is
> no doubt the ambiguity
> >of  early exx.
> >
> >Many of you will be familiar with the widespread
> canard that "hello" was
> >invented by Thomas Edison specifically for use on
> the newfangled telephone.
> >
> >Here is an early example of "hollo!" that looks
> like a simple
> >greeting.  (Naturally, not all doubt can be
> removed.)
> >
> >1841 Leman Rede Sixteen-String Jack (London: G. H.
> Davidson, n.d.) 36
> >[characters nearly face to face] "Hollo, old boy!
> I'm glad to see you
> >back again!"
> >
> >"Hi !" has followed an identical course. OED's 1862
> may be misplaced,
> >however. And what's the word "car" doing in 1885?
> It doesn't seem to be a
> >railway car.
> >
> >By the time we get to F. Scott Fitzgerald in 1920,
> the cite for "Hi !"
> >shows unmistakably  the current usage.
> >
> >OED doesn't include the universal Southern U.S.
> "hey!" as an exact
> >equivalent of "hi!"  Dating this accurately will
> also be difficult.  (I
> >once thought only Gomer Pyle said it. Travel *is*
> broadening.)
> >
> >JL
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >  Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
>


=====
James D. SMITH                 |If history teaches anything
South SLC, UT                  |it is that we will be sued
jsmithjamessmith at yahoo.com     |whether we act quickly and decisively
                               |or slowly and cautiously.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250


From Dalecoye at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 24 14:21:47 2005
From: Dalecoye at AOL.COM (Dale Coye)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 09:21:47 EST
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.092147.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jim Stalker mentioned the Politeness Principle-- what comes to mind for me is
something like a Baby Talk Principle or the Talking Cute Principle--when
talking to a little kid or when Cuteness is a factor add a lot of SH and CH
sounds.   Kitchey-kitchey-coo comes to mind. And a normal utterance like "What have
you got there?" becomes for some who are afflicted with the Cutes (as in
talking to a dog for example) "Whush shoo got dere"...

Dale Coye
Wilton NH


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 24 14:51:28 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 06:51:28 -0800
Subject: y'all redux
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.065128.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jim, you misunderstand me. We are on the same side. That was my own Damyankee hypothesis, and your wife's comment clearly supports it. For the average Southerner, singular "y'all" is not the hot-button issue it is for so many Southern academics and intellectuals.

As you say, the repeatedly observed fact is that a singular y'all does exist.  My post merely addressed the striking, dogmatic refusal of some sophisticated Southerners to deny categorically that it can or does.  This is not new, and hardly peculiar to this list.  I find it amazing and symptomatic - of what I'm not certain.

An inspection of posts on the issue reveals people taxing our credulity to explain away, oinie by one, singular "y'all" : users are "really" (and always) thinking of other persons not present or otherwise referred to, any instance reported by Northerner is untrustworthy, the speaker must have been a transplanted Yankee, the tendency toward singularity of other second-person plural pronouns doesn't matter, the waitress was tired or hung over,  the Southern speaker was deliberately funnin' the interlocutor who she mistakenly took for a furriner, etc.

What gives?  I'm still awaiting a reference to a printed source claiming that all Southerners use singular "y'all" all the time; maybe there is one.  And don't forget my previous Damyankee hypothesis about the origin of this sensitivity.

JL

James C Stalker <stalker at MSU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: James C Stalker
Subject: Re: y'all redux
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry JL. Not just another damnyankee hypothesis. I spent the first 22
years of my life in KY and NC, and many years of the rest of my life
defending my native KY dialect. My wife, a native of VA and KY, adamantly
insists that she uses singular yall, and has for years. I check these
postings with the one who really knows. After all, I'm just KY. She's
tidewater VA and KY. This yall=singular posting is a repetative one, and
interesting because it is repetitive. Something hasn't been resolved or
solved. I think yall are (is) making assumptions based on an email address
rather than knowledge about the informant.

You have made an interesting statement: "*Average* Southern speaker. . .far
more likely to admit the possibility of occassional singularity than are
sophisticated Southerners with an interest in language?" Therefore, I
reckon average "unsophisticated" Southern speakers don't know nothin about
their language, can't make judgments about their language. Only we linguists
can? If they claim "occasional" singuarity, they must be wrong because we
sophisticated linguists know they are wrong?

I think my original post is perhaps proved by your response. We are dealing
with pragmatic presuppositions rather than grammatical agreement.

JS


Jonathan Lighter writes:

> Then how explain the occasional Southerner who admits to occasional singularity?
>
> Most people, one assumes, don't often monitor their own speech for absolute semantic precision. Whatever the observable facts of "singularity," the *average* Southern speaker, I believe, is far more likely to admit the possibility of occasional singularity than are sophisticated Southerners with an interest in language.
>
> Just another damyankee hypothesis.
>
> JL
>
>
> James C Stalker wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: James C Stalker
> Subject: Re: y'all redux
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Maybe our problem here is not a grammatical one of singularity/plurality,
> but a pragmatic one of mutual contextual knowlege and beliefs (a la, Bach
> and Harnish). Southerners (self proclaimed, on this list) deny singularity.
> Non-Southerners (apparently, or by long disassociation with native dialect)
> claim to hear singularity. This posting suggests that we are dealing with
> expectations (i. e., presuppositions) rather than grammaticality. For
> Southerners, the implicature is always plural. "Northerners" do not share
> the mutual contextual knowledge with "Southerners," therefore interpret the
> context grammatically rather than pragmatically.
>
> Jim Stalker
>
> Majors, Tivoli writes:
>
>> I'm from Dallas so I thought I'd weigh in on the whole y'all thing. We used to argue about this in grad school at UT all the time. Generally, it was yankees who would say they heard y'all used in the singular. Us Texans would vehemently deny the possibiility. What I think may be going on is that when we southerners use y'all, it always has a plural intention, but may not seem to to outsiders. So if someone were to say to me "Did y'all enjoy that movie?" I would understand that to be addressed to me, anyone who saw the movie with me, and even anyone loosely affiliated with me. My assumption would not be that they meant me myself alone. In fact, I'd say that meaning is not allowable in my dialect. I can't speak for others, of course, but we Texans were generally in agreement on this point. None of us was from West Texas, but Ft. Worth is just a stone's throw from Dallas, so I'm still a little dubious.
>>
>
>
>
> James C. Stalker
> Department of English
> Michigan State University
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.


From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU  Thu Feb 24 14:55:19 2005
From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 08:55:19 -0600
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
In-Reply-To: <200502232327.j1NNRF1m000911@bama.ua.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.085519.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I agree with the palatalized 'scoot' idea. An example I can think of
that may parallel this one is my pronunciation of /s/ as [sh] (I mean
the voiceless palatal fricative) in words like "interesting" and
"sternum," which unless I pay special attention, come out as
"intereshting' and "shternum." My parents and grandparents (all native
Alabamians) pronounce the same way. And we all say "scootch" to mean
"move (yourself or something else) a little bit." Something like
"Scootch the picture to the left a little bit. It's not centered"
completely works for me.

Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> ----------------------- Sender:       American Dialect Society
> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter
> <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM> Subject:      Re: Query about slang
> "scootch"-- Why -ch?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> I think it's a lot older than Japanese-derived "skosh."  Always
> assumed it's just "scoot" with a palatalized final consonant, maybe
> originally before "over."
>
> FWIW
>
> JL
>

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
University of Alabama Libraries
Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 24 15:06:02 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:06:02 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <E1D48l0-0007Sa-00@mx13.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.100602.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 23, 2005, at 9:29 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> At 3:52 PM -0500 2/23/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>> Yes. You are correct, sir. It *was* Old Crow that was known as "Dirty
>> Bird." Folk are friendlier to brands like Jim Beam and Jack Daniel's,
>
> reminds me of a line I liked in "Monster's Ball" (speaking of movies):
>
> My husband used to LOVE him some Jack Daniel's.
> -Leticia (Halle Berry's character) to Hank (Billy Bob Thornton's) in
> "Monster's Ball"
>
> The referent is of course the (African-American) man who was put to
> death earlier in the movie.  (I like the line for the "personal
> dative", but I don't mind me some Jackie D on occasion myself,
> although I usually go for non-schoolboy scotch.)

My favorites are a blues line, "I laid down last night, thinkin' about
me a mojo hand" and "I'm just sitting here, eatin' on me a hamburger,"
spoken by an R&B DJ. There's also "We'll have her a party," but that's
not clearly distinct from "We'll have a party for her" or "We'll throw
her a party." On the old TV show, "In Living Color," there was a bit by
the Wayans sister that always included the line, "I love me some
Miss/Ms/Mrs [I've forgotten the name]!"

-Wilson

>
>> known to their confidants as "Jimmy B." and "Jackie D.," respectively.
>> For some reason, probably just for the hell of it, a drink that was
>> known elsewhere as "WPLJ" (white port & lemon juice, celebrated in
>> several R&B tunes of the '50's)
>
> Any relation to the very high-profile alternative rock radio station
> in New York with those call letters, I wonder?  (Maybe it's not
> alternative rock these days, I wouldn't know, but it was in the 70s.)
>
> larry
>
>> was known in St. Louis as "schoolboy
>> Scotch."
>


From TlhovwI at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 24 15:34:16 2005
From: TlhovwI at AOL.COM (Douglas Bigham)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:34:16 EST
Subject: Dialects in films
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.103416.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Going slightly to the side of the topic, there was "Enemy at the Gates" where
all the good guys (who are Russian?) speak [British] and the bad guys (who
are German?) speak [American].  I can't remember any specifics about the accents
beyond that.

-doug

-dsb
Douglas S. Bigham
Department of Linguistics
University of Texas - Austin
http://hometown.aol.com/capn002/myhomepage/index.html


From jester at PANIX.COM  Thu Feb 24 15:44:25 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:44:25 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <41756.69.142.143.59.1109233157.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.104425.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, Feb 24, 2005 at 03:19:17AM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
> The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
> the alt.usage.english newsgroup.  For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
> and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
> associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
> or "raucous").
>
> I was surprised that I couldn't find anything in the databases before 1987
> (and even then mostly from one writer, L.A. Times rock critic Duncan
> Strauss).  I would've guessed that it dates back at least to the late
> '70s, from either the punk-rock or arena-rock scenes.

We have examples from 1989 in British sources (referring to the
U.S.), and frequently thereafter.

Perhaps the scarcity of examples reflects the adoption of the
distinctive spelling only. It's likely that people said "rawk"
earlier, but perhaps critics just didn't write it down.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 24 15:45:51 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:45:51 -0500
Subject: Dialects in films
In-Reply-To: <E1D3zNs-0006N1-00@mx09.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.104551.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 23, 2005, at 11:28 AM, Kathryn Remlinger wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Kathryn Remlinger <remlingk at GVSU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Dialects in films
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Here are a few more film suggestions. (My previous message got cut in
> transit. )
>
> Mickey Blue Eyes (good for discussions of accommodation and dialect
> "passing"--Hugh Grant tries to pass as a member of a New York mob
> family)
>
> Selina (Chicano English, code-switching)
>
> Barber Shop I (varieties of AAE, good for dispelling myths about
> speakers of AAE)

In this movie, there's an occurrence of "antybody," pronounced
approximately "[IntI]body," wherein the [t] is fully pronounced, with
apiration. This is an intensive pronunciation of "anybody" that I'd
never before heard outside of my own family, BE-speakers from East
Texas. Very interesting.

-Wilson Gray

>
> Escanaba in Da Moonlight (Michigan's southwestern Upper Peninsula, bad
> imitations--lack of consistency)
>
> Smoke Signals (Northwest and Southwest varieties of Native American
> English)
>
> And an example from TV: This week's Extreem Home Makeover--How'd They
> Do
> That (ABC, Monday) there was quite a lengthy discussion of "southern
> accents", including  a "southern vocabulary" quiz by Jeff Foxworthy and
> examples of accommodation and style-shifting by Ty, the host of the
> show.
>
> --Kate
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Kathryn Remlinger, Ph.D.
> Associate Professor of English: Linguistics
> Grand Valley State University
> Allendale, MI 49401 USA
> remlingk at gvsu.edu
> tel: 616-331-3122
> fax: 616-331-3430
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb 24 16:10:16 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:10:16 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <60efa1cf8defa8041036c1da50679f30@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.111016.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:06 AM -0500 2/24/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>On Feb 23, 2005, at 9:29 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
>>At 3:52 PM -0500 2/23/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>>Yes. You are correct, sir. It *was* Old Crow that was known as "Dirty
>>>Bird." Folk are friendlier to brands like Jim Beam and Jack Daniel's,
>>
>>reminds me of a line I liked in "Monster's Ball" (speaking of movies):
>>
>>My husband used to LOVE him some Jack Daniel's.
>>-Leticia (Halle Berry's character) to Hank (Billy Bob Thornton's) in
>>"Monster's Ball"
>>
>>The referent is of course the (African-American) man who was put to
>>death earlier in the movie.  (I like the line for the "personal
>>dative", but I don't mind me some Jackie D on occasion myself,
>>although I usually go for non-schoolboy scotch.)
>
>My favorites are a blues line, "I laid down last night, thinkin' about
>me a mojo hand" and "I'm just sitting here, eatin' on me a hamburger,"
>spoken by an R&B DJ. There's also "We'll have her a party," but that's
>not clearly distinct from "We'll have a party for her" or "We'll throw
>her a party." On the old TV show, "In Living Color," there was a bit by
>the Wayans sister that always included the line, "I love me some
>Miss/Ms/Mrs [I've forgotten the name]!"
>
>-Wilson
And let's not forget that #1 pop song from Toni Braxton (she of
"Un-break my heart" fame), "I love me some him" (2003):

I love me some him
I'll never love this way again
I love me some you
Another man will never do

More recently, Terrell Owens has become (in)famous for his slogan "I
love me some me."
Thanks for those post-PP examples ("thinkin' about me", "eatin' on
me"), something I didn't have attested in my corpus.

Larry


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 24 16:14:47 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:14:47 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <E1D40CH-0004KF-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.111447.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 23, 2005, at 12:17 PM, sagehen wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> "Gwine" became an iconic spelling in minstrel songs: Foster's "Gwine
>> to
>> run all night, gwine to run all day!" and "I'm gwine to Louisiana
>> with my
>> banjo on my knee!" come to mind instantly.
>>
>> JL
> ~~~~~~~~~
> I suppose it says something about my (forbidden subject) politics that
> the
> first thing that came to my mind was:
> "Gwine-a lay down my sword & shield
> Down by the riverside...."
> A. Murie
>
> ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>
>

When I was a child (1940's), we had a recording of this by Thomas A.
Dorsey, who was known as the blues singer, "Georgia Tom," till he
allowed Jesus into his heart and accepted Him as his personal Savior,
on the Vocalion label. This version had "gona."

-Wilson Gray


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 24 16:43:45 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:43:45 -0500
Subject: Weird pronunciations
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.114345.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's a black woman on the Jerry Springer Show who is repeatedly
pronouncing "confuse" and "confusion" as though they had umlaut u:
conf[ue]se  conf[ue]sion and which Jerry is repeating in mockery as
"confooze" and "confoozhun."

-Wilson


From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Thu Feb 24 16:55:28 2005
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 10:55:28 -0600
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <200502241544.j1OFiR9u005751@mx1.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.105528.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
> The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
> the alt.usage.english newsgroup.  For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
> and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
> associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
> or "raucous").

This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb "rock", as
in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of praise.

Jim Parish
-------------------------------------------------
SIUE Web Mail


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb 24 19:36:59 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:36:59 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <1109264128.421e07004d557@webmail.siue.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.143659.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:
>Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>  The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
>>  the alt.usage.english newsgroup.  For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
>>  and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
>>  associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
>>  or "raucous").
>
>This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb "rock", as
>in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of praise.
>
Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
google hits, mostly for Harleys and such).  Then there's "dawg" which
I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
"dog" without any help.  (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
index a distinct pronunciation.

Larry


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Thu Feb 24 19:55:36 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:55:36 -0500
Subject: new coinage?
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.145536.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

" under pressure to tow party lines".......taken from another list.
Is this what you call an Eggcorn  ?  (It could have been an intentional
coinage: I haven't asked the perpetrator.)
A. Murie


From preston at MSU.EDU  Thu Feb 24 20:00:21 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:00:21 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <p04320406be43c3046966@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.150021.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You mean there are some of you guys who don't rhyme hogs and dogs! I
knew y'all had different vowels in off and on, but this really pushes
it.

dInIs

>At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:
>>Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>>  The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
>>>  the alt.usage.english newsgroup.  For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
>>>  and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
>>>  associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
>>>  or "raucous").
>>
>>This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb "rock", as
>>in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of praise.
>>
>Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
>google hits, mostly for Harleys and such).  Then there's "dawg" which
>I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
>"dog" without any help.  (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
>At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
>index a distinct pronunciation.
>
>Larry


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From jprucher at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 24 20:01:08 2005
From: jprucher at YAHOO.COM (Jeff Prucher)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:01:08 -0800
Subject: Weird pronunciations
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.120108.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--- Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>
> There's a black woman on the Jerry Springer Show who is repeatedly
> pronouncing "confuse" and "confusion" as though they had umlaut u:
> conf[ue]se  conf[ue]sion and which Jerry is repeating in mockery as
> "confooze" and "confoozhun."
>

That is both confoozin' and amoozin'.

Jeff Prucher




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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Thu Feb 24 20:14:18 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:14:18 -0500
Subject: new coinage?
In-Reply-To: <l03130301be43d623dd53@[12.107.141.231]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.151418.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>" under pressure to tow party lines".......taken from another list.
>Is this what you call an Eggcorn  ?  (It could have been an intentional
>coinage: I haven't asked the perpetrator.)
>A. Murie

Yes, in fact "tow the line" (the more general version) is a bonified
charter member of the eggcorn club.

larry


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 24 20:23:25 2005
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:23:25 -0800
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <60efa1cf8defa8041036c1da50679f30@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.122325.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Kim Wayans and  "Miss Jenkins"


Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:

 On the old TV show, "In Living Color," there was a bit by
the Wayans sister that always included the line, "I love me some
Miss/Ms/Mrs [I've forgotten the name]!"

-Wilson

>


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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 24 20:40:11 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:40:11 -0500
Subject: Weird pronunciations
In-Reply-To: <E1D4PAf-0006c8-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.154011.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hey, that sounds like something from the old "Li'l Abner" comic strip.

-Wilson

On Feb 24, 2005, at 3:01 PM, Jeff Prucher wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jeff Prucher <jprucher at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Weird pronunciations
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> --- Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>>
>> There's a black woman on the Jerry Springer Show who is repeatedly
>> pronouncing "confuse" and "confusion" as though they had umlaut u:
>> conf[ue]se  conf[ue]sion and which Jerry is repeating in mockery as
>> "confooze" and "confoozhun."
>>
>
> That is both confoozin' and amoozin'.
>
> Jeff Prucher
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Thu Feb 24 20:43:17 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:43:17 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <E1D4PWD-0006qS-00@mx19.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.154317.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bless you! Trying to remember was driving me crazy. I love me some Ms.
Lee!

-Wilson

On Feb 24, 2005, at 3:23 PM, Margaret Lee wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Margaret Lee <mlee303 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Kim Wayans and  "Miss Jenkins"
>
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
>
>  On the old TV show, "In Living Color," there was a bit by
> the Wayans sister that always included the line, "I love me some
> Miss/Ms/Mrs [I've forgotten the name]!"
>
> -Wilson
>
>>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
>


From edkeer at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 24 20:56:47 2005
From: edkeer at YAHOO.COM (Ed Keer)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 12:56:47 -0800
Subject: Unuses
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.125647.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I have a friend who works at a well known news
organization. He says that they use "unsite" and
"unhave" as verbs in written communications about
stories:

"Unhave India-Tsunami, pls resend." means "I don't
have the India-Tsunami story, please resend it."

"Unsite" means something like, "I don't see..."

I don't think anyone ever uses them when speaking, but
these sound awful to me. Has anyone ever talked about
this?

Ed



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From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Thu Feb 24 21:10:47 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:10:47 -0500
Subject: new coinage?
In-Reply-To: <p0432040abe43e5b32edf@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.161047.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>" under pressure to tow party lines".......taken from another list.
>>Is this what you call an Eggcorn  ?  (It could have been an intentional
>>coinage: I haven't asked the perpetrator.)
>>A. Murie
>
>Yes, in fact "tow the line" (the more general version) is a bonified
>charter member of the eggcorn club.
>
>larry
~~~~~~~
I love the images evoked:  in one case  "I've got a mule & her name is
Sal...."; in another, the royal barge on the Thames & the strains of Handel
playing from over the water......
AM

~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>   ~@:>


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Thu Feb 24 21:17:00 2005
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 15:17:00 -0600
Subject: new coinage?
In-Reply-To: <l03130302be43f25b7e76@[12.107.141.231]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.151700.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'd forgotten about that one. It's remarkable how many songs mention
me. :-)

sally donlon


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Thu Feb 24 21:23:24 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:23:24 -0500
Subject: Unuses
In-Reply-To: <20050224205647.58951.qmail@web20421.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.162324.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ed Keer wrote:
> I have a friend who works at a well known news
> organization. He says that they use "unsite" and
> "unhave" as verbs in written communications about
> stories:
>
> "Unhave India-Tsunami, pls resend." means "I don't
> have the India-Tsunami story, please resend it."
>
> "Unsite" means something like, "I don't see..."
>
> I don't think anyone ever uses them when speaking, but
> these sound awful to me. Has anyone ever talked about
> this?

My father worked for a major newspaper for his entire professional
career, from the early 1940s through the 1990s. I don't remember him
talking about these specific words, but he did talk about similar
"compressions", attributing them to cheapness (telegraphs used to charge
by the word).

--

Alice Faber


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Feb 24 21:14:50 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:14:50 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <p04320406be43c3046966@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.161450.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 02:36 PM 2/24/2005, you wrote:
>At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:
>>Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>>  The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
>>>  the alt.usage.english newsgroup.  For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
>>>  and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
>>>  associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
>>>  or "raucous").
>>
>>This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb "rock", as
>>in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of praise.
>Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
>google hits, mostly for Harleys and such).  Then there's "dawg" which
>I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
>"dog" without any help.  (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
>At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
>index a distinct pronunciation.
>
>Larry

The "dawg" spelling is meant to indicate the infamous upglide we talked
about a few weeks ago, if I'm not mistaken ("hawg" may be too).  My "dog,"
and yours, has the open O/backward C (so does my "hog"), but this "dawg"
would be roughly [daUg].  I make the U a superscript for my students.

Here in SE Ohio, "rock" wouldn't have a full open O, nor would it have an
upglide; but the /a/ of our "rock" would be backed somewhat, to a turned
script 'a' (I can't do it on e-mail), roughly halfway between /a/ and open
O.  (We've talked about this a hundred times on the list too.)

It sounds as if the pop "rawk" is not this regional backing but more like
the NYC "chocolate" and "coffee" raised open O, am I right?  (These aren't
upglided, as Dennis pointed out.)  But I haven't heard the pronunciation,
so I'm speculating.

Beverly


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Feb 24 21:42:10 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:42:10 -0500
Subject: new coinage?
In-Reply-To: <l03130302be43f25b7e76@[12.107.141.231]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.164210.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 04:10 PM 2/24/2005, you wrote:
> >>" under pressure to tow party lines".......taken from another list.
> >>Is this what you call an Eggcorn  ?  (It could have been an intentional
> >>coinage: I haven't asked the perpetrator.)
> >>A. Murie
> >
> >Yes, in fact "tow the line" (the more general version) is a bonified
> >charter member of the eggcorn club.
> >
> >larry
>~~~~~~~
>I love the images evoked:  in one case  "I've got a mule & her name is
>Sal...."; in another, the royal barge on the Thames & the strains of Handel
>playing from over the water......
>AM

Actually, we debated this origin some years ago.  It's between "tow the
flatboat/riverboat/barge" by horses and "toe the starting line" in a race,
as I recall.  Did "toe the line" necessarily win out?


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Thu Feb 24 21:56:17 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:56:17 -0500
Subject: Brinner and Dreakfast
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.165617.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My niece's friend here mentioned "brinner." That's not in the Urban Dictionary, but "dreakfast" is. They're both terms like "brunch," from breakfast or lunch or dinner or supper.

A quick check of Google News for more heartburn and it's off to supper or dinner or whatever.

(GOOGLE NEWS)
Travelers Guide: New York City, Hear the Sounds of Music ...
juiceenewsdaily, AL - 15 hours ago
The Big Apple -- this is the music capital of the world. The nickname itself was coined by jazz musicians who took their "bites" of the apple at gigs. ...


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 24 22:14:38 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:14:38 -0800
Subject: new coinage?
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.141438.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I thought it was "tow" till I was in graduate school.  On the Erie Canal, a "tow-lines" were hawsers aboard a canalboat which, hitched to one of a pair of mules (on the "tow-path") would enable them to tow the boat for some distance.

So it's not an eggcorn, dammit.  "Tow the mark" is an eggcorn !

JL

sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: sagehen
Subject: new coinage?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

" under pressure to tow party lines".......taken from another list.
Is this what you call an Eggcorn ? (It could have been an intentional
coinage: I haven't asked the perpetrator.)
A. Murie


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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Thu Feb 24 22:19:14 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:19:14 -0800
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.141914.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Blog, clog, cog, flog, frog, Gog, grog, hog, jog, log, nog, tog, and wog all rhyme.

Dog don't.

JL

"Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"

Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You mean there are some of you guys who don't rhyme hogs and dogs! I
knew y'all had different vowels in off and on, but this really pushes
it.

dInIs

>At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:
>>Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>> The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
>>> the alt.usage.english newsgroup. For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
>>> and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
>>> associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
>>> or "raucous").
>>
>>This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb "rock", as
>>in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of praise.
>>
>Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
>google hits, mostly for Harleys and such). Then there's "dawg" which
>I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
>"dog" without any help. (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
>At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
>index a distinct pronunciation.
>
>Larry


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu

__________________________________________________
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From fitzke at MICHCOM.NET  Sat Feb 26 01:31:14 2005
From: fitzke at MICHCOM.NET (Robert Fitzke)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:31:14 -0800
Subject: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.173114.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the early 30s my dad frequently, and clearly, called me "bub"; my name is
Robert so it may have been a variation on Bob.

Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings


> At 4:29 PM -0500 2/23/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
> >Wasn't there a character who lived in "Allen's Alley" who said....
> >Nope. That character said "Howdy, bub," not "Hey, bub."
> >
> >-Wilson
>
> I believe it was Ann Landers (although it may have also been Dear
> Abby, her twin) who was especially fond of the "Bub" salutation, as
> in "Wake up and smell the coffee, Bub".  WAG:  could Ann, nee Eppie
> Lederer from a nice Jewish family in Chicago, have truncated "Bub"
> from "Bubbeleh"?
>
> larry
>
> >
> >On Feb 23, 2005, at 3:41 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
> >
> >>---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>-----------------------
> >>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> >>Subject:      Re: hollo / hullo/ hello / hi / hey as simple greetings
> >>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>--------
> >>
> >>I've got a new one (to me, at least):  A grad student told me "Hey,
> >>bub!"
> >>is commonly used among his friends, and the office assistant,
> >>listening in,
> >>said he uses it all the time.  (Both are 25-30, white.)  I asked if
> >>"bub"
> >>came from "bubba," and neither one knew; they've just absorbed it as a
> >>new
> >>address term for a friend, male or female.  Any comments?
> >>
>


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Thu Feb 24 22:40:41 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:40:41 +0000
Subject: new coinage?
In-Reply-To: <200502241953.j1OJro75002138@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.224041.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 24/2/05 7:55 pm, sagehen at sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
> Subject:      new coinage?
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> " under pressure to tow party lines".......taken from another list.
> Is this what you call an Eggcorn  ?  (It could have been an intentional
> coinage: I haven't asked the perpetrator.)
> A. Murie

I have seen 2 instances in American publications where 'toe the line' has
been rendered 'tow the line'.

- Neil Crawford


From juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US  Thu Feb 24 22:43:32 2005
From: juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US (FRITZ JUENGLING)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:43:32 -0800
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.144332.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I personally have never heard any of these words, but asked a colleague of mine from around the Portland area and this is what she wrote in answer to my Q:
>>> FRITZ JUENGLING 02/24/05 10:29AM >>>
do you know the word 'scootch'?

yes, but I personally use "scootz".   I think "scootch" or my variation "scootz" is almost exclusively used as an imperative.  Has your list mentioned that?


>


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Thu Feb 24 22:43:00 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 14:43:00 -0800
Subject: Church key anecdote
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.144300.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church key"
as slang for a bottle opener.  I had never heard the word until I went to
grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time.  Nonetheless the
consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional expression--a
judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.

Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir practice"
in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the process of
organizing a game).  At some point I figured it was time for a beer, and
finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
practice), I asked him if he had a church key.  My question met with blank
stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking about.
So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement that
the expression was unknown in the Northwest.  FWIW, all but one of the
seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in the
NW.  One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went to
Linfield.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU  Thu Feb 24 22:48:22 2005
From: rshuttle at BAMA.UA.EDU (Rachel Shuttlesworth)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:48:22 -0600
Subject: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
In-Reply-To: <200502242244.j1OMi41m010370@bama.ua.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.164822.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would probably use it as an imperative most often, but can also
consider it a unit of measurement, as in, "Move it over just a scootch."
Rachel

FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       FRITZ JUENGLING <juengling_fritz at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US>
> Subject:      Re: Query about slang "scootch"-- Why -ch?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I personally have never heard any of these words, but asked a colleague of mine from around the Portland area and this is what she wrote in answer to my Q:
>
>>>>FRITZ JUENGLING 02/24/05 10:29AM >>>
>
> do you know the word 'scootch'?
>
> yes, but I personally use "scootz".   I think "scootch" or my variation "scootz" is almost exclusively used as an imperative.  Has your list mentioned that?
>
>
>

--
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Dr. Rachel E. Shuttlesworth
CLIR Post-Doctoral Fellow
University of Alabama Libraries
Box 870266, Tuscaloosa, Alabama 35487-0266
Office: 205.348.4655/ Fax:205.348.8833
rachel.e.shuttlesworth at ua.edu


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Thu Feb 24 23:06:57 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:06:57 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <20050224221914.20584.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.180657.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Oh, no, not again.  We just went through this kind of survey a couple years
ago!

At 05:19 PM 2/24/2005, you wrote:
>Blog, clog, cog, flog, frog, Gog, grog, hog, jog, log, nog, tog, and wog
>all rhyme.
>
>Dog don't.
>
>JL
>
>"Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>
>Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>You mean there are some of you guys who don't rhyme hogs and dogs! I
>knew y'all had different vowels in off and on, but this really pushes
>it.
>
>dInIs
>
> >At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:
> >>Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
> >>> The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
> >>> the alt.usage.english newsgroup. For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
> >>> and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
> >>> associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
> >>> or "raucous").
> >>
> >>This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb
> "rock", as
> >>in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of praise.
> >>
> >Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
> >google hits, mostly for Harleys and such). Then there's "dawg" which
> >I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
> >"dog" without any help. (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
> >At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
> >index a distinct pronunciation.
> >
> >Larry
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com


From george.thompson at NYU.EDU  Thu Feb 24 23:16:00 2005
From: george.thompson at NYU.EDU (George Thompson)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:16:00 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Abortionist"
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.181600.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I seem to be doddering.  I thought someone had posted here recently to
ask for earlier uses of the word abortionist, but all I find in the
archives is this message from Fred of 15 months ago.  Thompson's law
is, things always happened much longer ago than you remember, but. . . .

However!  Whether anyone has been clamoring for it or not, I do have a
nice antedating of Fred's antedating:

Mad. Restell, the celebrated Abortionist [is arrested; the Sun and the
Herald carry "profuse and constant ads for her services].  New-York
Daily Tribune, March 26, 1844, p. 2, col. 3

If any of the lexicographers among us want a more complete sentence
than the five words of direct transcription here, I will get it.

George A. Thompson
Author of A Documentary History of "The African Theatre", Northwestern
Univ. Pr., 1998, but nothing much lately.

----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
Date: Monday, November 17, 2003 12:33 pm
Subject: Antedating of "Abortionist"

> abortionist (OED 1872)
>
> 1861 _Lancet_ 23 Mar. 295  The trade of the abortionist ... has
> become a
> regularly established, money-making business, carried on by both
> sexes.
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
> Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF
> QUOTATIONS  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale
> University Press,
> Yale Law School                             forthcoming
> e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu
> http://quotationdictionary.com-------------------------------------
> -------------------------------------
>


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 00:11:05 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:11:05 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Abortionist"
In-Reply-To: <23fdc7d23fec61.23fec6123fdc7d@nyu.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.191105.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Has anyone checked this on American Periodical Series?

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Feb 25 00:36:17 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:36:17 -0500
Subject: new coinage?
In-Reply-To: <20050224221438.88972.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.193617.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I thought it was "tow" till I was in graduate school.  On the Erie Canal,
>a "tow-lines" were hawsers aboard a canalboat which, hitched to one of a
>pair of mules (on the "tow-path") would enable them to tow the boat for
>some distance.
>
>So it's not an eggcorn, dammit.  "Tow the mark" is an eggcorn !
>
>JL
~~~~~~~~~~
Perhaps not, if it ("tow the line") is invoked in a context that suggests
pulling one's weight, but I think I usually see or hear the expression
where it is meant to stand for acceptance of certain premises or
definitions.
[ BTW, it was exactly that Erie Canal image I was alluding to with the line
from the song "I've got a mule..."]
AM


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 00:39:54 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:39:54 -0800
Subject: Church key anecdote
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.163954.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Seems to me the only other time I've encountered "choir practice" in a comparable sense was in Joseph Wambaugh's L.A. cop novel _The Choirboys_ (1975).  Any connection ?

JL

"Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Peter A. McGraw"

Subject: Church key anecdote
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church key"
as slang for a bottle opener. I had never heard the word until I went to
grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time. Nonetheless the
consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional expression--a
judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.

Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir practice"
in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the process of
organizing a game). At some point I figured it was time for a beer, and
finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
practice), I asked him if he had a church key. My question met with blank
stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking about.
So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement that
the expression was unknown in the Northwest. FWIW, all but one of the
seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in the
NW. One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went to
Linfield.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


---------------------------------
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From pds at VISI.COM  Fri Feb 25 00:40:01 2005
From: pds at VISI.COM (Tom Kysilko)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 18:40:01 -0600
Subject: Brinner and Dreakfast
In-Reply-To: <20050224215623.4B2AC503D@bran.mc.mpls.visi.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.184001.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Some time in the late '70s a friend of mine used "Dreckfast" as a nonce
condemnation of the pancake house fare we were sharing.  It stuck among our
acquaintance for a while, but I haven't heard it since.

His favorite portmanteau was "Wopera" for Italian opera.

When I filtered for only English language sites, Google gave me 193 hits
for "Wopera", but most of them still seem to be Hungarian
names.  "Dreckfast" gets only two distinct hits -- "Dread and Dreckfast"
and "Dreckfast of Champions"

--Tom Kysilko

At 2/24/2005 04:56 PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>My niece's friend here mentioned "brinner." That's not in the Urban
>Dictionary, but "dreakfast" is. They're both terms like "brunch," from
>breakfast or lunch or dinner or supper.


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Feb 25 01:02:45 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:02:45 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1109256180@[10.218.201.228]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.200245.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church key"
>as slang for a bottle opener.  I had never heard the word until I went to
>grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time.  Nonetheless the
>consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional expression--a
>judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.
>
>Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir practice"
>in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the process of
>organizing a game).  At some point I figured it was time for a beer, and
>finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
>influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
>practice), I asked him if he had a church key.  My question met with blank
>stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking about.
>So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement that
>the expression was unknown in the Northwest.  FWIW, all but one of the
>seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in the
>NW.  One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went to
>Linfield.
>
>Peter Mc.
 ~~~~~~~~~
AFAIK, it was a widely-accepted term everywhere I've lived (Midwest, West,
Northeast). It only applied to the specialized opener of crown caps, I
think.  Not the kind that punches a triangular hole in a can top, or that
pries with a little hook.When I was last a beer drinker (had to give it up
because of allergy to malt) bottlers were using a kind of crown cap that
could be unscrewed.  Maybe the church key has simply become obsolete?
A. Murie

A&M Murie
N. Bangor NY
sagehen at westelcom.com


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 01:14:19 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:14:19 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Sexology"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502241910400.17649-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.201419.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

sexology (OED 1902)

1867 Elizabeth Willard  (title) Sexology as the philosophy life: implying
social organization and government.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Feb 25 01:26:35 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:26:35 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Sexology"
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.202635.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        I believe that's "philosophy of life," not "philosophy life."  One web page gives credit for coining the term to Willard, who unlike later sexologists apparently regarded sex as more or less a loathsome thing.

John Baker


-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU]On Behalf
Of Fred Shapiro
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 8:14 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Antedating of "Sexology"


sexology (OED 1902)

1867 Elizabeth Willard  (title) Sexology as the philosophy life: implying
social organization and government.

Fred Shapiro


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 01:27:57 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:27:57 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Feudalism"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0502242012580.24772-100000@ajax.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.202757.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

feudalism (OED 1839)

1773 John Whitaker _The History of Manchester_ 359 (Eighteenth Century
Collections Online)  The word Allod or Allodium has effectually baffled
all the disquisitions of etymology to the present moment.  Like many of
the the other terms of feudalism, it has been vainly explored, I
apprehend, in languages to which it never bore any relation.

1782 Walter Ross _A Discourse upon the Removing of Tenants_ 160
(Eighteenth Century Collections Online)  Feudalism is now no more: it has
disappeared before the spirit of commerce.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Fri Feb 25 01:52:47 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:52:47 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.205247.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jonathan,

        It never occurred to me that dog and hog might not rhyme.  Which word do you rhyme with Prague, and how do you pronounce the other word?

John Baker


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 02:13:30 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:13:30 -0500
Subject: Antedating of "Sexology"
In-Reply-To: <200502250126.j1P1QvTg022173@pantheon-po05.its.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.211330.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005, Baker, John wrote:

>         I believe that's "philosophy of life," not "philosophy life."

Yes, you're right, John.  Thanks for the correction.

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From gcohen at UMR.EDU  Fri Feb 25 02:36:23 2005
From: gcohen at UMR.EDU (Cohen, Gerald Leonard)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 20:36:23 -0600
Subject: FW: "scootch" in DARE
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.203623.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Joan Houston Hall (editor, DARE) kindly sent me the following information on "scootch" today:

"[...]  DARE has a series of scooch, scoot, scrooch-type entries.  At scooch we say "Appar EDD [=English Dialect Dictionary] scouch 'To crouch, stoop, bend over,' perh infl by scrooch; senses 2, 3, and 4 have been infl by scoot."
> Joan"
>
Gerald Cohen


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 25 02:49:39 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 21:49:39 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <E1D4Tqi-0007F6-00@mx17.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.214939.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 24, 2005, at 8:02 PM, sagehen wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Church key anecdote
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church
>> key"
>> as slang for a bottle opener.  I had never heard the word until I
>> went to
>> grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time.  Nonetheless
>> the
>> consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional
>> expression--a
>> judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.
>>
>> Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir
>> practice"
>> in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the
>> process of
>> organizing a game).  At some point I figured it was time for a beer,
>> and
>> finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
>> influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
>> practice), I asked him if he had a church key.  My question met with
>> blank
>> stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking
>> about.
>> So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement
>> that
>> the expression was unknown in the Northwest.  FWIW, all but one of the
>> seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in
>> the
>> NW.  One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went
>> to
>> Linfield.
>>
>> Peter Mc.
>  ~~~~~~~~~
> AFAIK, it was a widely-accepted term everywhere I've lived (Midwest,
> West,
> Northeast). It only applied to the specialized opener of crown caps, I
> think.  Not the kind that punches a triangular hole in a can top, or
> that
> pries with a little hook.When I was last a beer drinker (had to give
> it up
> because of allergy to malt) bottlers were using a kind of crown cap
> that
> could be unscrewed.  Maybe the church key has simply become obsolete?
> A. Murie
>
> A&M Murie
> N. Bangor NY
> sagehen at westelcom.com
>

In my lost youth, "church key" referred specifically to the tool that
punched a triangular hole in a beer can. This was the case in St. Louis
in the 'Fifties, and 'Sixties. Some models were double-ended, with the
other end designed to open the crown caps of bottles. The suggestion
that this tool has been rendered obsolete by pull-tabs and twist-off
caps makes perfect sense to me.

-Wilson Gray


From cwaigl at FREE.FR  Fri Feb 25 02:58:21 2005
From: cwaigl at FREE.FR (Chris F Waigl)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 03:58:21 +0100
Subject: new coinage?
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.035821.0100.>

neil wrote:

>
>I have seen 2 instances in American publications where 'toe the line' has
>been rendered 'tow the line'.
>
Google News currently lists 24 occurrences for "[tow | towed | towing]
the line" and 16 for "[tow | towed | towing] the * line", with "*"
replacing (vaguely in order of frequency) "party", "company",
"government", "liberal", "cautionary". Other adjectives are used as well.

This is one of the eggcorns I remember learning in the wrong form --
from my reading, which is where I learnt most of my English. I explained
it to myself in a way that was probably influenced by the German figure
"am selben Strick ziehen", literally "to pull on the same rope", meaning
to work actively towards the same goals as someone else or some group. I
only started to wonder when the strange, inexplicable "misspelling"
_toe_ showed up occasionally.


Chris Waigl

--
a chisel writing -- http://lascribe.net/
        "Away, you scullion! you rampallian! you fustilarian!
                I'll tickle your catastrophe."
c w a i g l / a t / f r e e / p o i n t / f r


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 03:07:30 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:07:30 -0800
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.190730.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hog rhymes with Prague. Dog rhymes with...nothing !  Hog and Prague have the vowel of "car." Dog has the vowel of "saw" and "law."

In the second grade a substitute teacher tried to convince us that "dog" should rhyme with "hog," "frog," etc.  We never saw her again.

JL

"Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Baker, John"
Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jonathan,

It never occurred to me that dog and hog might not rhyme. Which word do you rhyme with Prague, and how do you pronounce the other word?

John Baker


---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 03:09:31 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 19:09:31 -0800
Subject: FW: "scootch" in DARE
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.190931.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Moonmen Gidney and Cloyd carried a "skrooch gun" in a famous adventure of Rocky & Bullwinkle.

JL

"Cohen, Gerald Leonard" <gcohen at UMR.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Cohen, Gerald Leonard"
Subject: FW: "scootch" in DARE
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joan Houston Hall (editor, DARE) kindly sent me the following information on "scootch" today:

"[...] DARE has a series of scooch, scoot, scrooch-type entries. At scooch we say "Appar EDD [=English Dialect Dictionary] scouch 'To crouch, stoop, bend over,' perh infl by scrooch; senses 2, 3, and 4 have been infl by scoot."
> Joan"
>
Gerald Cohen


---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.


From douglas at NB.NET  Fri Feb 25 03:29:54 2005
From: douglas at NB.NET (Douglas G. Wilson)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:29:54 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <9d951649509e8733f1d415bfdc76d795@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.222954.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In my lost youth, "church key" referred specifically to the tool that
>punched a triangular hole in a beer can. This was the case in St. Louis
>in the 'Fifties, and 'Sixties. Some models were double-ended, with the
>other end designed to open the crown caps of bottles. The suggestion
>that this tool has been rendered obsolete by pull-tabs and twist-off
>caps makes perfect sense to me.

I agree. There was a similar discussion here in 2000, but I didn't
participate AFAIK.

When I was young[er] we used the term to refer to either the can-opener or
the bottle-opener (or the combo). It had to be a one-piece thing like a key
though IIRC: something with a lever or a wheel wouldn't qualify (IIRC), nor
would the fixed bottle-opener attached to a vending machine or a cooler.

-- Doug Wilson


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 03:39:27 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:39:27 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <9d951649509e8733f1d415bfdc76d795@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.223927.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My experience from KY and NC during the 50s and 60s agrees with Wilson's.
Church keys opened beer cans (as well as other cans, like fruit juice cans,
but those were unimportant) before they had pull tabs. The opening was
triangular; the other end often had the rounded crown opener.  In fact,
there were some fairly fancy ones intended to be attached to key chains.
There is an obvious oxymoron here, but I wonder if the triangular shape is
part of the metaphor?

Jim Stalker

Wilson Gray writes:

> On Feb 24, 2005, at 8:02 PM, sagehen wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: Church key anecdote
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------
>>
>>> A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church
>>> key"
>>> as slang for a bottle opener.  I had never heard the word until I
>>> went to
>>> grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time.  Nonetheless
>>> the
>>> consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional
>>> expression--a
>>> judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.
>>>
>>> Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir
>>> practice"
>>> in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the
>>> process of
>>> organizing a game).  At some point I figured it was time for a beer,
>>> and
>>> finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
>>> influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
>>> practice), I asked him if he had a church key.  My question met with
>>> blank
>>> stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking
>>> about.
>>> So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement
>>> that
>>> the expression was unknown in the Northwest.  FWIW, all but one of the
>>> seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in
>>> the
>>> NW.  One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went
>>> to
>>> Linfield.
>>>
>>> Peter Mc.
>>  ~~~~~~~~~
>> AFAIK, it was a widely-accepted term everywhere I've lived (Midwest,
>> West,
>> Northeast). It only applied to the specialized opener of crown caps, I
>> think.  Not the kind that punches a triangular hole in a can top, or
>> that
>> pries with a little hook.When I was last a beer drinker (had to give
>> it up
>> because of allergy to malt) bottlers were using a kind of crown cap
>> that
>> could be unscrewed.  Maybe the church key has simply become obsolete?
>> A. Murie
>>
>> A&M Murie
>> N. Bangor NY
>> sagehen at westelcom.com
>>
>
> In my lost youth, "church key" referred specifically to the tool that
> punched a triangular hole in a beer can. This was the case in St. Louis
> in the 'Fifties, and 'Sixties. Some models were double-ended, with the
> other end designed to open the crown caps of bottles. The suggestion
> that this tool has been rendered obsolete by pull-tabs and twist-off
> caps makes perfect sense to me.
>
> -Wilson Gray
>



James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 25 03:52:52 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:52:52 -0500
Subject: A change
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.225252.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 From time to time, I hear a line of the type, "Can, will, etc. you do
me _a_ solid?" on various TV shows. Back in the day of the hepcat, we
used to say, "Can, will, etc. you do me _some_ solid?" I haven't heard
the new version used in the negative, but the old bersion's negative
was, "No, I can't, won't, etc. do you no solid." There was also the hep
expression, "Solid, Jackson!" or just "Solid!" used as a strong
affirmative.

-Wilson Gray


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Fri Feb 25 04:32:30 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 23:32:30 -0500
Subject: A change
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.233230.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 22:52:52 -0500, Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:

> From time to time, I hear a line of the type, "Can, will, etc. you do
>me _a_ solid?" on various TV shows. Back in the day of the hepcat, we
>used to say, "Can, will, etc. you do me _some_ solid?" I haven't heard
>the new version used in the negative, but the old bersion's negative
>was, "No, I can't, won't, etc. do you no solid." There was also the hep
>expression, "Solid, Jackson!" or just "Solid!" used as a strong
>affirmative.

>From the _Seinfeld_ episode "The Jacket" (aired Feb. 6, 1991):

-----
http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheJacket.htm
KRAMER: Hey. Hey, would you do me a solid?
JERRY: Well, what kind of solid?
KRAMER: I need you to sit in the car for two minutes while it's
double-parked. I gotta pick up some birds.
JERRY: Birds?
KRAMER: Yeah. A friend of mine, he's a magician. He's going away on
vacation. He asked me to take care of his doves.
JERRY: So take a cab.
KRAMER: They won't take a cage full of birds.
JERRY: I can't. I'm on my way out. There's no way I can do it.
KRAMER: George, do me a solid? Two minutes.
GEORGE: Well, I'm going with him. I'd like to, I've never done a solid
before.
KRAMER: Alright.. yeah.. alright, have a good one.
-----

(Kramer was occasionally referred to as a "hipster doofus".)


--Ben Zimmer


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 04:34:54 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 23:34:54 -0500
Subject: new coinage?
In-Reply-To: <20050224221438.88972.qmail@web53908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.233454.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:14 PM -0800 2/24/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>I thought it was "tow" till I was in graduate school.  On the Erie
>Canal, a "tow-lines" were hawsers aboard a canalboat which, hitched
>to one of a pair of mules (on the "tow-path") would enable them to
>tow the boat for some distance.
>
>So it's not an eggcorn, dammit.  "Tow the mark" is an eggcorn !
>
>JL

But the way "tow the line" is used has nothing (obvious) to do with
tow-lines, and everything to do with staying under control, following
the rules, etc., the way a runner or diver does.  The OED has (under
_toe_ (v.)):
=======
To touch or reach with the toes; chiefly in to toe a or the line,
mark, scratch, crack, trig, to stand with the tips of one's toes
exactly touching a line; to stand in a row; hence fig. to present
oneself in readiness for a race, contest, or undertaking; also, to
conform, esp. to the defined standard or platform of a party.
=======
How do we get from using tow-lines to towing a boat to this meaning
of conforming to regulations?  (Not impossible, I grant, but less
obvious than toeing the line.)

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 04:43:37 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 23:43:37 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <l03130304be442770f70c@[12.107.141.231]>
Message-ID: <THU.24.FEB.2005.234337.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:02 PM -0500 2/24/05, sagehen wrote:
>  >A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church key"
>>as slang for a bottle opener.  I had never heard the word until I went to
>>grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time.  Nonetheless the
>>consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional expression--a
>>judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.
>>
>>Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir practice"
>>in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the process of
>>organizing a game).  At some point I figured it was time for a beer, and
>>finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
>>influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
>>practice), I asked him if he had a church key.  My question met with blank
>>stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking about.
>>So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement that
>>the expression was unknown in the Northwest.  FWIW, all but one of the
>>seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in the
>>NW.  One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went to
>>Linfield.
>>
>>Peter Mc.
>  ~~~~~~~~~
>AFAIK, it was a widely-accepted term everywhere I've lived (Midwest, West,
>Northeast). It only applied to the specialized opener of crown caps, I
>think.  Not the kind that punches a triangular hole in a can top, or that
>pries with a little hook.When I was last a beer drinker (had to give it up
>because of allergy to malt) bottlers were using a kind of crown cap that
>could be unscrewed.  Maybe the church key has simply become obsolete?
>A. Murie
>
Not obsolete (we have several, so that at least one will not be
hiding when we need them), but rarer in these days when a lot of cans
self-open and a lot of bottle caps screw off, as noted.  But you
still need church keys for imported beers and some (nice) domestic
ones.  But I think there may be age variation as well as possibly
regional variation.  I was surprised during the Christmas break to
discover that my 22-year-old son was totally unfamiliar with the
lexical item (when I happened to use it), although he's certainly not
unfamiliar with using the denotatum itself.

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 05:00:09 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:00:09 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <20050224221914.20584.qmail@web53905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.000009.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 2:19 PM -0800 2/24/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Blog, clog, cog, flog, frog, Gog, grog, hog, jog, log, nog, tog, and
>wog all rhyme.

[and, in response to John Baker, JL observes that "Hog rhymes with
Prague. Dog rhymes with...nothing !  Hog and Prague have the vowel of
"car." Dog has the vowel of "saw" and "law."]

I proudly share Jon's vowels.  The script-a of the above words also
shows up in "bog", "fog", and any coinages or acronyms of the form
C(n)og that might be constructed.  If I were going to invent a pet
name for beef stroganoff, "Strog" would rhyme with "b(l)og" and not
"dog".

>Dog don't.

Here's a tricky one--"dog, shmog--what I want is a ferret!"  I think
"shmog" has got to rhyme with "dog".  Maybe it has to be spelled
"shmawg" for us dog-versus-world types, though.

larry



>"Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>
>Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>You mean there are some of you guys who don't rhyme hogs and dogs! I
>knew y'all had different vowels in off and on, but this really pushes
>it.
>
>dInIs
>
>>At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:
>>>Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>>>  The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
>>>>  the alt.usage.english newsgroup. For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
>>>>  and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
>>>>  associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
>>>>  or "raucous").
>>>
>>>This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb "rock", as
>>>in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of praise.
>>>
>>Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
>>google hits, mostly for Harleys and such). Then there's "dawg" which
>>I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
>>"dog" without any help. (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
>>At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
>>index a distinct pronunciation.
>>
>>Larry
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 05:22:33 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 00:22:33 -0500
Subject: y'all redux
In-Reply-To: <20050224145128.75670.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.002233.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I stand corrected.  In thinking about the data problem, Mike Montgomery's
article in Am Speech on multiple modals comes to mind.  He has a relatively
limited range of data, all painstakingly collected from reported data over
quite a span of time, but the data make a convincing case for mms being
polite forms. Following on from there, mm speakers will also be non--mm
speakers, when the politeness needs are not relevant.  Sg/pl yall, if sg is
polite, would follow the same pattern, making the collection of data more
complex.  No one would ever be a consistent sg or pl yall person.  They
would always be both, but in different contexts.  Could this be a
Northern/Southern shiboleth?

Jim Stalker

James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 25 06:22:38 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 01:22:38 -0500
Subject: y'all redux
In-Reply-To: <E1D4Y9k-0000Qq-01@mx03.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.012238.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Inny y'all ever watch Dr. Phil? He's a fine example of a Southwestern
speaker. He's from Vinita, OK (not to be cofused with Vinita, MO),
originally, but he's lived in Texas for quite a while and uses a lot of
"y'all." He even uses "hit" for "it"! And there's also Katie Couric. I
can't say that I've ever heard her use y'all, but she uses "you-all"
with a fairly high degree of regularity. She's a native of (West?)
Virginia, I believe.

-Wilson


On Feb 25, 2005, at 12:22 AM, James C Stalker wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       James C Stalker <stalker at MSU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: y'all redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I stand corrected.  In thinking about the data problem, Mike
> Montgomery's
> article in Am Speech on multiple modals comes to mind.  He has a
> relatively
> limited range of data, all painstakingly collected from reported data
> over
> quite a span of time, but the data make a convincing case for mms being
> polite forms. Following on from there, mm speakers will also be non--mm
> speakers, when the politeness needs are not relevant.  Sg/pl yall, if
> sg is
> polite, would follow the same pattern, making the collection of data
> more
> complex.  No one would ever be a consistent sg or pl yall person.  They
> would always be both, but in different contexts.  Could this be a
> Northern/Southern shiboleth?
>
> Jim Stalker
>
> James C. Stalker
> Department of English
> Michigan State University
>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 12:24:48 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 04:24:48 -0800
Subject: new coinage?
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.042448.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

If a mule don't tow the line, you whack him one with a two-by-four.

That's how I always do it.

JL

Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: new coinage?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 2:14 PM -0800 2/24/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>I thought it was "tow" till I was in graduate school. On the Erie
>Canal, a "tow-lines" were hawsers aboard a canalboat which, hitched
>to one of a pair of mules (on the "tow-path") would enable them to
>tow the boat for some distance.
>
>So it's not an eggcorn, dammit. "Tow the mark" is an eggcorn !
>
>JL

But the way "tow the line" is used has nothing (obvious) to do with
tow-lines, and everything to do with staying under control, following
the rules, etc., the way a runner or diver does. The OED has (under
_toe_ (v.)):
=======
To touch or reach with the toes; chiefly in to toe a or the line,
mark, scratch, crack, trig, to stand with the tips of one's toes
exactly touching a line; to stand in a row; hence fig. to present
oneself in readiness for a race, contest, or undertaking; also, to
conform, esp. to the defined standard or platform of a party.
=======
How do we get from using tow-lines to towing a boat to this meaning
of conforming to regulations? (Not impossible, I grant, but less
obvious than toeing the line.)

Larry


---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 12:29:08 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 04:29:08 -0800
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.042908.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes, Larry. "Shmog" in that context would have to rhyme with "dog."  But in any other context it wouldn't.

JL

Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 2:19 PM -0800 2/24/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Blog, clog, cog, flog, frog, Gog, grog, hog, jog, log, nog, tog, and
>wog all rhyme.

[and, in response to John Baker, JL observes that "Hog rhymes with
Prague. Dog rhymes with...nothing ! Hog and Prague have the vowel of
"car." Dog has the vowel of "saw" and "law."]

I proudly share Jon's vowels. The script-a of the above words also
shows up in "bog", "fog", and any coinages or acronyms of the form
C(n)og that might be constructed. If I were going to invent a pet
name for beef stroganoff, "Strog" would rhyme with "b(l)og" and not
"dog".

>Dog don't.

Here's a tricky one--"dog, shmog--what I want is a ferret!" I think
"shmog" has got to rhyme with "dog". Maybe it has to be spelled
"shmawg" for us dog-versus-world types, though.

larry



>"Dennis R. Preston"
wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>
>Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>You mean there are some of you guys who don't rhyme hogs and dogs! I
>knew y'all had different vowels in off and on, but this really pushes
>it.
>
>dInIs
>
>>At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:
>>>Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>>> The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
>>>> the alt.usage.english newsgroup. For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
>>>> and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
>>>> associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
>>>> or "raucous").
>>>
>>>This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb "rock", as
>>>in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of praise.
>>>
>>Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
>>google hits, mostly for Harleys and such). Then there's "dawg" which
>>I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
>>"dog" without any help. (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
>>At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
>>index a distinct pronunciation.
>>
>>Larry
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com


---------------------------------
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 Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 13:26:01 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:26:01 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <20050225030731.76916.qmail@web53906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.082601.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jonathon,

She musta moved down to where we talk good (and where
grapheme-phoneme correspondence is a helluva lot better) just to get
away from y'all.

dInIs

>Hog rhymes with Prague. Dog rhymes with...nothing !  Hog and Prague
>have the vowel of "car." Dog has the vowel of "saw" and "law."
>
>In the second grade a substitute teacher tried to convince us that
>"dog" should rhyme with "hog," "frog," etc.  We never saw her again.
>
>JL
>
>"Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: "Baker, John"
>Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Jonathan,
>
>It never occurred to me that dog and hog might not rhyme. Which word
>do you rhyme with Prague, and how do you pronounce the other word?
>
>John Baker
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 13:28:07 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:28:07 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <E1D4WKA-0001cv-7e@sys20.mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.082807.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I got little NC experience, but my KY life from darn close to Jim's
would have the crown top opener as the unmarked form.

dInIs



>My experience from KY and NC during the 50s and 60s agrees with Wilson's.
>Church keys opened beer cans (as well as other cans, like fruit juice cans,
>but those were unimportant) before they had pull tabs. The opening was
>triangular; the other end often had the rounded crown opener.  In fact,
>there were some fairly fancy ones intended to be attached to key chains.
>There is an obvious oxymoron here, but I wonder if the triangular shape is
>part of the metaphor?
>
>Jim Stalker
>
>Wilson Gray writes:
>
>>On Feb 24, 2005, at 8:02 PM, sagehen wrote:
>>
>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>-----------------------
>>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
>>>Subject:      Re: Church key anecdote
>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>--------
>>>
>>>>A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church
>>>>key"
>>>>as slang for a bottle opener.  I had never heard the word until I
>>>>went to
>>>>grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time.  Nonetheless
>>>>the
>>>>consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional
>>>>expression--a
>>>>judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.
>>>>
>>>>Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir
>>>>practice"
>>>>in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the
>>>>process of
>>>>organizing a game).  At some point I figured it was time for a beer,
>>>>and
>>>>finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
>>>>influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
>>>>practice), I asked him if he had a church key.  My question met with
>>>>blank
>>>>stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking
>>>>about.
>>>>So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement
>>>>that
>>>>the expression was unknown in the Northwest.  FWIW, all but one of the
>>>>seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in
>>>>the
>>>>NW.  One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went
>>>>to
>>>>Linfield.
>>>>
>>>>Peter Mc.
>>>  ~~~~~~~~~
>>>AFAIK, it was a widely-accepted term everywhere I've lived (Midwest,
>>>West,
>>>Northeast). It only applied to the specialized opener of crown caps, I
>>>think.  Not the kind that punches a triangular hole in a can top, or
>>>that
>>>pries with a little hook.When I was last a beer drinker (had to give
>>>it up
>>>because of allergy to malt) bottlers were using a kind of crown cap
>>>that
>>>could be unscrewed.  Maybe the church key has simply become obsolete?
>>>A. Murie
>>>
>>>A&M Murie
>>>N. Bangor NY
>>>sagehen at westelcom.com
>>>
>>
>>In my lost youth, "church key" referred specifically to the tool that
>>punched a triangular hole in a beer can. This was the case in St. Louis
>>in the 'Fifties, and 'Sixties. Some models were double-ended, with the
>>other end designed to open the crown caps of bottles. The suggestion
>>that this tool has been rendered obsolete by pull-tabs and twist-off
>>caps makes perfect sense to me.
>>
>>-Wilson Gray
>>
>
>
>
>James C. Stalker
>Department of English
>Michigan State University


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 13:31:25 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:31:25 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <20050225122908.89327.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.083125.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How bout "hog schmog--what I want is a peccary"?

dInIs (delighted by this foreign variation)

>Yes, Larry. "Shmog" in that context would have to rhyme with "dog."
>But in any other context it wouldn't.
>
>JL
>
>Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Laurence Horn
>Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>At 2:19 PM -0800 2/24/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>Blog, clog, cog, flog, frog, Gog, grog, hog, jog, log, nog, tog, and
>>wog all rhyme.
>
>[and, in response to John Baker, JL observes that "Hog rhymes with
>Prague. Dog rhymes with...nothing ! Hog and Prague have the vowel of
>"car." Dog has the vowel of "saw" and "law."]
>
>I proudly share Jon's vowels. The script-a of the above words also
>shows up in "bog", "fog", and any coinages or acronyms of the form
>C(n)og that might be constructed. If I were going to invent a pet
>name for beef stroganoff, "Strog" would rhyme with "b(l)og" and not
>"dog".
>
>>Dog don't.
>
>Here's a tricky one--"dog, shmog--what I want is a ferret!" I think
>"shmog" has got to rhyme with "dog". Maybe it has to be spelled
>"shmawg" for us dog-versus-world types, though.
>
>larry
>
>
>
>>"Dennis R. Preston"
>wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>Poster: "Dennis R. Preston"
>>
>>Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>You mean there are some of you guys who don't rhyme hogs and dogs! I
>>knew y'all had different vowels in off and on, but this really pushes
>>it.
>>
>>dInIs
>>
>>>At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:
>>>>Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>>>>  The pronunciation spelling "rawk" for "rock" (music) came up recently on
>>>>>  the alt.usage.english newsgroup. For speakers who haven't merged "cot"
>>>>>  and "caught", "rawk" suggests an exaggerated pronunciation that might be
>>>>>  associated with young male fans of hard rock (possibly also evoking "raw"
>>>>>  or "raucous").
>>>>
>>>>This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb
>>>>"rock", as
>>>>in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of praise.
>>>>
>>>Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
>>>google hits, mostly for Harleys and such). Then there's "dawg" which
>>>I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
>>>"dog" without any help. (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
>>>At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
>>>index a distinct pronunciation.
>>>
>>>Larry
>>
>>
>>--
>>Dennis R. Preston
>>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>>A-740 Wells Hall
>>Michigan State University
>>East Lansing, MI 48824
>>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>>preston at msu.edu
>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>  Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Fri Feb 25 13:46:49 2005
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 08:46:49 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.084649.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
: At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:

:: This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb
:: "rock", as in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of
:: praise.

: Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
: google hits, mostly for Harleys and such).  Then there's "dawg" which
: I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
: "dog" without any help.  (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
: At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
: index a distinct pronunciation.

Provo (Utah) High School's mascot is the Bulldogs, and along the side of the
school is emblazoned "Go Dawgs!" However, this area has the cot-caught
merger.

My suspicion is that in this case (and likely others) it's imitation of the
Georgia Bulldogs, not an index of any particular pronunciation.

In a FWIW aside, i have the cot-caught distinction, and 'hog' and 'hawg' are
both pronounced the same for me. The <og> words are notoriously variable;
for me there's dog, hog, slog, fog, frog, and log (open-o) versus blog, pog,
cog, jog, toggle, and noggin (ah).

David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 14:11:36 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:11:36 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <09c901c51b40$7b766220$f0fbaa84@BOWIE>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.091136.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David,

I always knew there was something I really liked about you. Now I
know what it is: your open oh/ah distribution before /g/ is exactly
the same as mine! Maybe I am not the last living speaker of Standard
American English (SAE 10-W-40, the norm) after all!

But, I wonder if the notorious variability you mention might not be
explained by a word frequency/early learning appeal. Every one of
your (and my) open oh words (hog, frog, dog, log...) is a relatively
high-frequency and early-learned word; every ah word is a relatively
low-frequency and later-learned word (jog, cog, blog...). In my case,
for example, since "smog" is right in the middle (middle frequency,
learned only a little earlier than some of the ah words), I don't
like either pronunciation.

How do you deal with some of the other historical open oh producers?
ah before /f/ is really hard for me to get, even in late learned
words (e.g., Hoffa). I remember a "Poff" family where I grew up, and
I think we ah-ed them, but it hits my ear funny even today.

dInIs




>From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>: At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:
>
>:: This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb
>:: "rock", as in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of
>:: praise.
>
>: Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
>: google hits, mostly for Harleys and such).  Then there's "dawg" which
>: I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
>: "dog" without any help.  (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
>: At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
>: index a distinct pronunciation.
>
>Provo (Utah) High School's mascot is the Bulldogs, and along the side of the
>school is emblazoned "Go Dawgs!" However, this area has the cot-caught
>merger.
>
>My suspicion is that in this case (and likely others) it's imitation of the
>Georgia Bulldogs, not an index of any particular pronunciation.
>
>In a FWIW aside, i have the cot-caught distinction, and 'hog' and 'hawg' are
>both pronounced the same for me. The <og> words are notoriously variable;
>for me there's dog, hog, slog, fog, frog, and log (open-o) versus blog, pog,
>cog, jog, toggle, and noggin (ah).
>
>David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
>     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
>     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
>     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 14:53:27 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:53:27 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <20050225122908.89327.qmail@web53902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.095327.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:29 AM -0800 2/25/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Yes, Larry. "Shmog" in that context would have to rhyme with "dog."
>But in any other context it wouldn't.
>
>JL

Nice minimal pair:
"Dog shmog" [SmOg]  vs. "Smog shmog"  [Smag]

L


>
>Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
>
>Here's a tricky one--"dog, shmog--what I want is a ferret!" I think
>"shmog" has got to rhyme with "dog". Maybe it has to be spelled
>"shmawg" for us dog-versus-world types, though.
>


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 14:59:34 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:59:34 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <09c901c51b40$7b766220$f0fbaa84@BOWIE>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.095934.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 8:46 AM -0500 2/25/05, David Bowie wrote:
>
>In a FWIW aside, i have the cot-caught distinction, and 'hog' and 'hawg' are
>both pronounced the same for me. The <og> words are notoriously variable;
>for me there's dog, hog, slog, fog, frog, and log (open-o) versus blog, pog,
>cog, jog, toggle, and noggin (ah).
>

Now *that's* weird.   ;-)

--Larry shm[ae]rry
[not to be confused with "Mary shm[e:]ry" or "merry shm[E]rry",
and wondering if this is discussed in the reduplication literature...]


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 15:24:16 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 07:24:16 -0800
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.072416.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Many New Yorkers notoriously have a vowel in "dog," "caught," etc., that is farther back than the "open-o" symbol usually suggests.

Despite this, when I personally demonstrate the phonemic difference between "cot" and "caught" for Southern undergrads most claim not to hear it, presumably because they don't make the distinction themselves. Most remain unable to transcribe the distinction correctly.

A well-known phenomenon, but it still impresses me.

Other contrasting pairs are "odd" & "awed," "mod" & "Maude," "Ol" [short for "Olivia"] & "all,"  "moll" & "maul," "Poll" & "Paul," "doll" & "Dall" [wild sheep of the Rockies]; and for less r-full speakers, "shod" & "shored," "hod" and "horde," "lard" & "lord," "r-full" and "awful."

JL

JL




David Bowie <db.list at PMPKN.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: David Bowie
Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Laurence Horn
: At 10:55 AM -0600 2/24/05, Jim Parish wrote:

:: This spelling is also popular (AFAICT, more popular) for the verb
:: "rock", as in "You RAWK!", a rather vague but forceful expression of
:: praise.

: Wonder if there's an influence from the "hawg" spelling (201,000
: google hits, mostly for Harleys and such). Then there's "dawg" which
: I've always found curious, since that would be how I'd pronounce
: "dog" without any help. (Sort of like "luv" or "wuz", or "wimmin".)
: At least in the "rawk" and "hawg" case the distinct spelling does
: index a distinct pronunciation.

Provo (Utah) High School's mascot is the Bulldogs, and along the side of the
school is emblazoned "Go Dawgs!" However, this area has the cot-caught
merger.

My suspicion is that in this case (and likely others) it's imitation of the
Georgia Bulldogs, not an index of any particular pronunciation.

In a FWIW aside, i have the cot-caught distinction, and 'hog' and 'hawg' are
both pronounced the same for me. The words are notoriously variable;
for me there's dog, hog, slog, fog, frog, and log (open-o) versus blog, pog,
cog, jog, toggle, and noggin (ah).

David Bowie http://pmpkn.net/lx
Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.



---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Sports -  Sign up for Fantasy Baseball.


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 15:27:04 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 07:27:04 -0800
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.072704.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes !  "Shmog" vs. "shmog" !  Elegant !

I bet they couldn't match that in Middle English !

JL

Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Laurence Horn
Subject: Re: rawk (1987)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At 4:29 AM -0800 2/25/05, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>Yes, Larry. "Shmog" in that context would have to rhyme with "dog."
>But in any other context it wouldn't.
>
>JL

Nice minimal pair:
"Dog shmog" [SmOg] vs. "Smog shmog" [Smag]

L


>
>Laurence Horn wrote:
>
>Here's a tricky one--"dog, shmog--what I want is a ferret!" I think
>"shmog" has got to rhyme with "dog". Maybe it has to be spelled
>"shmawg" for us dog-versus-world types, though.
>


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Fri Feb 25 15:48:27 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:48:27 -0600
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <a06020401be44d8202ae5@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.094827.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I would have to say that the unmarked form for me has both ends
(Cleveland, north of Boston, Phila, Milwaukee, Chicago). My current
use for it would be as a bottle opener; my more usual use for it as a
child in Cleveland would have been  as a can opener (I don't remember
drinking canned juice in Andover, MA). But the visual I have when I
ask for a church key has both ends.

Barbara

>I got little NC experience, but my KY life from darn close to Jim's
>would have the crown top opener as the unmarked form.
>
>dInIs
>
>
>>My experience from KY and NC during the 50s and 60s agrees with Wilson's.
>>Church keys opened beer cans (as well as other cans, like fruit juice cans,
>>but those were unimportant) before they had pull tabs. The opening was
>>triangular; the other end often had the rounded crown opener.  In fact,
>>there were some fairly fancy ones intended to be attached to key chains.
>>There is an obvious oxymoron here, but I wonder if the triangular shape is
>>part of the metaphor?
>>
>>Jim Stalker
>>
>>Wilson Gray writes:
>>
>>>On Feb 24, 2005, at 8:02 PM, sagehen wrote:
>>>
>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>-----------------------
>>>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
>>>>Subject:      Re: Church key anecdote
>>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>--------
>>>>
>>>>>A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church
>>>>>key"
>>>>>as slang for a bottle opener.  I had never heard the word until I
>>>>>went to
>>>>>grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time.  Nonetheless
>>>>>the
>>>>>consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional
>>>>>expression--a
>>>>>judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.
>>>>>
>>>>>Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir
>>>>>practice"
>>>>>in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the
>>>>>process of
>>>>>organizing a game).  At some point I figured it was time for a beer,
>>>>>and
>>>>>finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
>>>>>influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
>>>>>practice), I asked him if he had a church key.  My question met with
>>>>>blank
>>>>>stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking
>>>>>about.
>>>>>So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement
>>>>>that
>>>>>the expression was unknown in the Northwest.  FWIW, all but one of the
>>>>>seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in
>>>>>the
>>>>>NW.  One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went
>>>>>to
>>>>>Linfield.
>>>>>
>>>>>Peter Mc.
>>>>  ~~~~~~~~~
>>>>AFAIK, it was a widely-accepted term everywhere I've lived (Midwest,
>>>>West,
>>>>Northeast). It only applied to the specialized opener of crown caps, I
>>>>think.  Not the kind that punches a triangular hole in a can top, or
>>>>that
>>>>pries with a little hook.When I was last a beer drinker (had to give
>>>>it up
>>>>because of allergy to malt) bottlers were using a kind of crown cap
>>>>that
>>>>could be unscrewed.  Maybe the church key has simply become obsolete?
>>>>A. Murie
>>>>
>>>>A&M Murie
>>>>N. Bangor NY
>>>>sagehen at westelcom.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>In my lost youth, "church key" referred specifically to the tool that
>>>punched a triangular hole in a beer can. This was the case in St. Louis
>>>in the 'Fifties, and 'Sixties. Some models were double-ended, with the
>>>other end designed to open the crown caps of bottles. The suggestion
>>>that this tool has been rendered obsolete by pull-tabs and twist-off
>>>caps makes perfect sense to me.
>>>
>>>-Wilson Gray
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>James C. Stalker
>>Department of English
>>Michigan State University
>
>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
>Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
>A-740 Wells Hall
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48824
>Phone: (517) 432-3099
>Fax: (517) 432-2736
>preston at msu.edu


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 25 16:26:24 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:26:24 EST
Subject: dog, dag, daeg, dawg, doe-ug, etc.
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.112624.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm frankly puzzled by the certainty that people have about these -og words.
I would have to go back and listen to some of my old fieldwork tapes to know
WHAT I say, but I am pretty sure there is a lot of variability in my own speech
between [o] and [a] in most of the -og words--I speak with the tongue of a
sociolinguist, a little of this, a little of that, depending on where my tongue
happens to go (and maybe sometimes on the audience).

In a message dated 2/25/05 9:11:57 AM, preston at MSU.EDU writes:


> David,
>
> I always knew there was something I really liked about you. Now I
> know what it is: your open oh/ah distribution before /g/ is exactly
> the same as mine! Maybe I am not the last living speaker of Standard
> American English (SAE 10-W-40, the norm) after all!
>
> But, I wonder if the notorious variability you mention might not be
> explained by a word frequency/early learning appeal. Every one of
> your (and my) open oh words (hog, frog, dog, log...) is a relatively
> high-frequency and early-learned word; every ah word is a relatively
> low-frequency and later-learned word (jog, cog, blog...). In my case,
> for example, since "smog" is right in the middle (middle frequency,
> learned only a little earlier than some of the ah words), I don't
> like either pronunciation.
>
> How do you deal with some of the other historical open oh producers?
> ah before /f/ is really hard for me to get, even in late learned
> words (e.g., Hoffa). I remember a "Poff" family where I grew up, and
> I think we ah-ed them, but it hits my ear funny even today.
>
> dInIs
>
>


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 25 16:41:36 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:41:36 EST
Subject: church key 'beer-can opener' is obsolete
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.114136.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Why would one need an opener for a beer can? Today they are all self-opening, 
and have been for decades.

If people under 40 do not know the term, it seems likely that this is because 
the expression has died out because the word is no longer necessary. 
Moreover, in the context that mcgraw describes, even I, who recall the word fondly 
from my youth in Iowa, would have been quite uncertain what he was asking me for.


In a message dated 2/24/05 5:45:38 PM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes:


> A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church key"
> as slang for a bottle opener.? I had never heard the word until I went to
> grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time.? Nonetheless the
> consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional expression--a
> judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.
> 
> Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir practice"
> in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the process of
> organizing a game).? At some point I figured it was time for a beer, and
> finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
> influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
> practice), I asked him if he had a church key.? My question met with blank
> stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking about.
> So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement that
> the expression was unknown in the Northwest.? FWIW, all but one of the
> seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in the
> NW.? One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went to
> Linfield.
> 
> Peter Mc.
> 


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Feb 25 16:43:59 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:43:59 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <a06020400be44dff0ffe4@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.114359.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

 dInIs writes:
>But, I wonder if the notorious variability you mention might not be
>explained by a word frequency/early learning appeal. Every one of
>your (and my) open oh words (hog, frog, dog, log...) is a relatively
>high-frequency and early-learned word; every ah word is a relatively
>low-frequency and later-learned word (jog, cog, blog...). In my case,
>for example, since "smog" is right in the middle (middle frequency,
>learned only a little earlier than some of the ah words), I don't
>like either pronunciation.
 ~~~~~~~~~
 Yup.  What you said.
A. Murie
(I know it wasn't addressed to me, but it happens to be just what I was
thinking.)


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Fri Feb 25 17:01:03 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:01:03 -0800
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <p06020402be44f8b2a411@[128.135.198.250]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.090103.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Friday, February 25, 2005 9:48 AM -0600 Barbara Need
<nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU> wrote:

> I would have to say that the unmarked form for me has both ends
> (Cleveland, north of Boston, Phila, Milwaukee, Chicago). My current
> use for it would be as a bottle opener; my more usual use for it as a
> child in Cleveland would have been  as a can opener (I don't remember
> drinking canned juice in Andover, MA). But the visual I have when I
> ask for a church key has both ends.
>

Me, too.

In my original post I didn't mention what followed the blank looks I got.
When I explained that what I wanted was a beer bottle opener, I was handed
one of those corkscrews with little arms and a loop-shaped handle that can
also be used to open a bottle of beer.  I stared at it in confusion for a
moment, because I was still expecting a church key.  Contrary to what
appears to be popular belief, screw-off tops are far from universal.  For
some reason, at least the microbrews I drink come in bottles with tops that
still need to be pried off.  So while I rarely have a use for the pointed
end, I still use the rounded end to open beer bottles, and the church key
is still an everyday object in our house. I suspect lots of other people
around here use them, too, but apparently they don't call them church keys.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Fri Feb 25 17:06:01 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:06:01 -0500
Subject: church key 'beer-can opener' is obsolete
In-Reply-To: <e3.df8170d.2f50af40@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.120601.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ron Butters asks:
>Why would one need an opener for a beer can? Today they are all self-opening,
>and have been for decades.
~~~~~~~~
If I must drink from a can I'd much rather it be opened by the old-style
triangular punch, which produces a reasonable facsimile of a lipped rim,
than by the self-opener that produces a round hole leaving a flange that
delivers dribbles.
A. Murie


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Feb 25 17:13:28 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:13:28 -0600
Subject: Church key anecdote
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.111328.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm pretty sure Stephen King uses the term in his novella, "The Body",
on which the movie "Stand by Me" was based.


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Fri Feb 25 17:31:38 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:31:38 -0600
Subject: church key 'beer-can opener' is obsolete
In-Reply-To: <e3.df8170d.2f50af40@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.113138.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Why would one need an opener for a beer can? Today they are all self-opening,
>and have been for decades.

But the same device can be used to open juice cans, and the last time
I checked (which was not THAT recently, maybe a year ago), you still
get a quart or so of fruit juice in cans with no other opening.
Without the pointed end of a church key, I use a can opener (the
rotary variety) to create the pouring hole and air in-take hole.

>If people under 40 do not know the term, it seems likely that this is because
>the expression has died out because the word is no longer necessary.

Except that the item still exists. I just asked two graduate students
(and another, I think he was an undergrad), if they knew what a
church key was. The two graduate students didn't know what the term
referred to, the other said it was a "very simple key" that opens
anything, "like a skeleton key". However, when I drew a very crude
picture of one (with both ends), both of the graduate students
recognized the item--like Larry's son, they know the denotatum, even
if they don't know the word (the undergrad had left before I was done
with my artistic efforts).

Barbara


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 25 17:32:06 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:32:06 EST
Subject: church key 'beer-can opener' is obsolete
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.123206.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/25/05 12:04:32 PM, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes:


> If I must drink from a can I'd much rather it be opened by the old-style
> triangular punch, which produces a reasonable facsimile of a lipped rim,
> than by the self-opener that produces a round hole leaving a flange that
> delivers dribbles.
> A. Murie
>

Flange? What flange? The modern pop-top is scientifically engineered NOT to
dribble!!!

But be that as it may, surely the number of people who feel this way about
the relative dribbileational merit of old-fashioned punched holes is too small
to keep alive a slang term such as CHRUCH KEY. Surely most people who are this
particular about their holes simply pour the beer into a glass rather thaqn go
to the trouble of finding a puch-style opener. Moreover, though I failed to
note this, the anecdote actually spoke of a beer bottle rather than a can.
Whether one twists the top off or opens the bottle with a tool, the hole stays the
same.

In my memory, the few times that I have tried to open a modern aluminum can
using the old-fashioned punch-type opener (i.e., when the pull-off tab was
defective), it did not work very well. The aluminum can was not designed to be
opened that way, and the lip tended to squash and bend before the hole got made
properly. The result was a hole that was much worse, dribblewise, than any
pre-conditioned pop-top hole could ever be.

At any rate, in my experience the term CHURCH KEY was used ironically among
youths from the sort of protestant backgrounds that looked askance at the use
of alcoholic beverages. It was most commonly used when consuming beer illegally
and furtively. The idea was to get the beer into your stomach as quickly and
bountifully as possible. It really didn't matter at all what the hole was
like. It seems unlikely that folks who worry about a little dribble would be
particularly drawn to what is essentially purile humor in labelling the implement
by means of which they open their beers.


From mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT  Fri Feb 25 17:34:38 2005
From: mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT (Amorelli)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:34:38 +0100
Subject: Unuses
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.183438.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Looks like an overdose of 'Newspeak' (cf. George Orwell's '1984', first
published in 1949!), although the Author's imagination did not extend to
rendering 'sight' semi(?)-phonetically.
M.I.Amorelli
Faculties of Law and Economics,
University of Sassari
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Keer" <edkeer at YAHOO.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 9:56 PM
Subject: Unuses


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Ed Keer <edkeer at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Unuses
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I have a friend who works at a well known news
> organization. He says that they use "unsite" and
> "unhave" as verbs in written communications about
> stories:
>
> "Unhave India-Tsunami, pls resend." means "I don't
> have the India-Tsunami story, please resend it."
>
> "Unsite" means something like, "I don't see..."
>
> I don't think anyone ever uses them when speaking, but
> these sound awful to me. Has anyone ever talked about
> this?
>
> Ed
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.3.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005
>
>



--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 25 17:39:16 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:39:16 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20church=20key=20'bee?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?r-can=20opener'=20is=20obsolete?=
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.123916.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/25/05 12:31:43 PM, nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes:


>
> Except that the item still exists. I just asked two graduate students
> (and another, I think he was an undergrad), if they knew what a
> church key was. The two graduate students didn't know what the term
> referred to, the other said it was a "very simple key" that opens
> anything, "like a skeleton key". However, when I drew a very crude
> picture of one (with both ends), both of the graduate students
> recognized the item--like Larry's son, they know the denotatum, even
> if they don't know the word (the undergrad had left before I was done
> with my artistic efforts).
>

Well, yeah, the punch-style can opener still exists (thought I doubt that
Paul Newman still wears one on a chain around his neck, as his wife once reported
that he did). It is just no longer very frequently referred to as a CHURCH
KEY, for the sociolinguistic reasons I outlined in my previous e-mail. The slang
term is obsolete. There must be other slang terms that are technologically
obsolete as well--maybe PLATTERS 'phonograph records'? ICE BOX 'refrigerator'?


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 25 17:41:38 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:41:38 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20Church=20key=20anec?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?dote?=
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.124138.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/25/05 12:03:38 PM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes:


> I suspect lots of other people
> around here use them, too, but apparently they don't call them church keys.
>

Exactly my point. So the anecdote cannot be taken as evidence that the term
is/was geographically distributed.


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Fri Feb 25 17:44:47 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:44:47 -0600
Subject: Church key anecdote
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.114447.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Current ebay lot # 6157169131
has 15 different church keys, of various sizes and shapes.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=566&item=61571691
31&rd=1


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 17:48:12 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:48:12 -0500
Subject: y'all redux
In-Reply-To: <da08f8d99859dbe4f8774405922722fa@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.124812.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Do Dr. Phil and Katie Couric use y'all/you all in the pl. or sing. or
both?  OK and (west?) TX, and WV (but probably not VA) might represent
"fuzzy boundary" usage of sing. y'all (and even you all?)--in either the
geographical sense I mentioned earlier or the politeness sense suggested by
Jim.

At 01:22 AM 2/25/2005, you wrote:
>Inny y'all ever watch Dr. Phil? He's a fine example of a Southwestern
>speaker. He's from Vinita, OK (not to be cofused with Vinita, MO),
>originally, but he's lived in Texas for quite a while and uses a lot of
>"y'all." He even uses "hit" for "it"! And there's also Katie Couric. I
>can't say that I've ever heard her use y'all, but she uses "you-all"
>with a fairly high degree of regularity. She's a native of (West?)
>Virginia, I believe.
>
>-Wilson
>
>
>On Feb 25, 2005, at 12:22 AM, James C Stalker wrote:
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       James C Stalker <stalker at MSU.EDU>
>>Subject:      Re: y'all redux
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>--------
>>
>>I stand corrected.  In thinking about the data problem, Mike
>>Montgomery's
>>article in Am Speech on multiple modals comes to mind.  He has a
>>relatively
>>limited range of data, all painstakingly collected from reported data
>>over
>>quite a span of time, but the data make a convincing case for mms being
>>polite forms. Following on from there, mm speakers will also be non--mm
>>speakers, when the politeness needs are not relevant.  Sg/pl yall, if
>>sg is
>>polite, would follow the same pattern, making the collection of data
>>more
>>complex.  No one would ever be a consistent sg or pl yall person.  They
>>would always be both, but in different contexts.  Could this be a
>>Northern/Southern shiboleth?
>>
>>Jim Stalker
>>
>>James C. Stalker
>>Department of English
>>Michigan State University


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 17:55:43 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:55:43 -0500
Subject: church key 'beer-can opener' is obsolete
In-Reply-To: <e3.df8170d.2f50af40@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.125543.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How many decades? I remember takin a damn screwdriver to a beer can
when I didn't have no church key.

dInIs



>Why would one need an opener for a beer can? Today they are all self-opening,
>and have been for decades.
>
>If people under 40 do not know the term, it seems likely that this is because
>the expression has died out because the word is no longer necessary.
>Moreover, in the context that mcgraw describes, even I, who recall
>the word fondly
>from my youth in Iowa, would have been quite uncertain what he was
>asking me for.
>
>
>In a message dated 2/24/05 5:45:38 PM, pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU writes:
>
>
>>  A few years ago there was a discussion in this cyberspace of "church key"
>>  as slang for a bottle opener.  I had never heard the word until I went to
>>  grad school in Wisconsin, where I heard it all the time.  Nonetheless the
>>  consensus on ads-l seemed to be that it wasn't a regional expression--a
>>  judgment that seems to be confirmed by its absence from DARE.
>>
>>  Well, the other night I was at a poker game (which we call "choir practice"
>>  in the messages we exchange via the college e-mail system in the process of
>>  organizing a game).  At some point I figured it was time for a beer, and
>>  finding nothing in the host's kitchen to open it with (and possibly
>>  influenced subconsciously by the fact that this was, after all, choir
>>  practice), I asked him if he had a church key.  My question met with blank
>>  stares all around--nobody had the slightest idea what I was talking about.
>>  So this scientific sampling of seven guys demonstrated 100% agreement that
>>  the expression was unknown in the Northwest.  FWIW, all but one of the
>>  seven are in their 30s, and I think most of them grew up somewhere in the
>>  NW.  One went to college in Michigan, and I think all the others went to
>>  Linfield.
>>
>>  Peter Mc.
>>


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 17:57:23 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 12:57:23 -0500
Subject: church key 'beer-can opener' is obsolete
In-Reply-To: <l03130305be45082d329a@[12.107.140.117]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.125723.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And a tab which catches in your moustache and pulls the danged hairs out!

dInIs

>Ron Butters asks:
>>Why would one need an opener for a beer can? Today they are all self-opening,
>>and have been for decades.
>~~~~~~~~
>If I must drink from a can I'd much rather it be opened by the old-style
>triangular punch, which produces a reasonable facsimile of a lipped rim,
>than by the self-opener that produces a round hole leaving a flange that
>delivers dribbles.
>A. Murie


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Fri Feb 25 17:50:06 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 11:50:06 -0600
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1109322063@[10.218.201.228]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.115006.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Contrary to what appears to be popular belief, screw-off tops are
>far from universal.  For some reason, at least the microbrews I
>drink come in bottles with tops that still need to be pried off.

[stuff deleted]

>Peter Mc.

Well, and screw-off tops are often very hard to GET off! They still
have the crimping around the edges and I find a church key (or other
bottle opener) still the best way to get the tops off beer and soda
(pop, soda pop, tonic, soft drink) bottles.

Barbara


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 18:02:08 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:02:08 -0500
Subject: church key 'beer-can opener' is obsolete
In-Reply-To: <199.39a24dd0.2f50bb16@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.130208.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Damn you Butters! If you're gong to call us old protestant boys
"purile" you'd better spell it right.

dInIs (whose boys may already be out lookin fer you)

>In a message dated 2/25/05 12:04:32 PM, sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM writes:
>
>
>>  If I must drink from a can I'd much rather it be opened by the old-style
>>  triangular punch, which produces a reasonable facsimile of a lipped rim,
>>  than by the self-opener that produces a round hole leaving a flange that
>>  delivers dribbles.
>>  A. Murie
>>
>
>Flange? What flange? The modern pop-top is scientifically engineered NOT to
>dribble!!!
>
>But be that as it may, surely the number of people who feel this way about
>the relative dribbileational merit of old-fashioned punched holes is too small
>to keep alive a slang term such as CHRUCH KEY. Surely most people who are this
>particular about their holes simply pour the beer into a glass rather thaqn go
>to the trouble of finding a puch-style opener. Moreover, though I failed to
>note this, the anecdote actually spoke of a beer bottle rather than a can.
>Whether one twists the top off or opens the bottle with a tool, the
>hole stays the
>same.
>
>In my memory, the few times that I have tried to open a modern aluminum can
>using the old-fashioned punch-type opener (i.e., when the pull-off tab was
>defective), it did not work very well. The aluminum can was not designed to be
>opened that way, and the lip tended to squash and bend before the
>hole got made
>properly. The result was a hole that was much worse, dribblewise, than any
>pre-conditioned pop-top hole could ever be.
>
>At any rate, in my experience the term CHURCH KEY was used ironically among
>youths from the sort of protestant backgrounds that looked askance at the use
>of alcoholic beverages. It was most commonly used when consuming
>beer illegally
>and furtively. The idea was to get the beer into your stomach as quickly and
>bountifully as possible. It really didn't matter at all what the hole was
>like. It seems unlikely that folks who worry about a little dribble would be
>particularly drawn to what is essentially purile humor in labelling
>the implement
>by means of which they open their beers.


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 25 18:04:52 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:04:52 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20church=20key=20'bee?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?r-can=20opener'=20is=20obsolete?=
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.130452.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/25/05 1:03:09 PM, preston at MSU.EDU writes:


> Damn you Butters! If you're gong to call us old protestant boys
> "purile" you'd better spell it right.
>

The spelling is variable, like everything else.


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 18:07:00 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:07:00 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <p06020409be45119378dd@[128.135.198.250]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.130700.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Do y'all remember the brief popularity of twist-off tops? Some are
still around. They were not screw off (which even some wines that
cost more than 2.99 are coming to); they looked just like crown tops,
and you had to know which was which. I memebr reamin out a nice
bloody circle oncet by grabbin what I thought was a twistoff and
twistin too hard.

dInIs (didn't leave no scar, dangit; woulda been a nice badge of honor)

>>Contrary to what appears to be popular belief, screw-off tops are
>>far from universal.  For some reason, at least the microbrews I
>>drink come in bottles with tops that still need to be pried off.
>
>[stuff deleted]
>
>>Peter Mc.
>
>Well, and screw-off tops are often very hard to GET off! They still
>have the crimping around the edges and I find a church key (or other
>bottle opener) still the best way to get the tops off beer and soda
>(pop, soda pop, tonic, soft drink) bottles.
>
>Barbara


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 18:08:42 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:08:42 -0500
Subject: church key 'bee               r-can opener' is obsolete
In-Reply-To: <fa.da5acdb.2f50c2c4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.130842.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bah! Variability. The excuse of those who lack the decency (or
industry) to acquire the Standard Language.

dInIs

>In a message dated 2/25/05 1:03:09 PM, preston at MSU.EDU writes:
>
>
>>  Damn you Butters! If you're gong to call us old protestant boys
>>  "purile" you'd better spell it right.
>>
>
>The spelling is variable, like everything else.


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 25 18:11:22 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:11:22 EST
Subject: purile
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.131122.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/25/05 1:09:29 PM, preston at MSU.EDU writes:


> Bah! Variability. The excuse of those who lack the decency (or
> industry) to acquire the Standard Language.
>
> dInIs
>
I guess IK thought that puerile was derived from pure.


From wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM  Fri Feb 25 19:24:00 2005
From: wendalyn at NYC.RR.COM (Wendalyn Nichols)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:24:00 -0500
Subject: Church key in NW
In-Reply-To: <2147483647.1109322063@[10.218.201.228]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.142400.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I'm Northwest born (Oregon) and raised (Washington) and I know the term
church key. It might be an age thing: I'm in my early forties, and I often
find that I have a completely different slang subset from people who were
raised in the same area but are 35 or younger.
Wendalyn


>[deleted exchange]
>I suspect lots of other people around here use them, too, but apparently
>they don't call them church keys.
>
>Peter Mc.
>
>*****************************************************************
>Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
>******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Fri Feb 25 19:44:37 2005
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:44:37 -0600
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <p06020402be44f8b2a411@[128.135.198.250]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.134437.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Since childhood, a "church key" has had two ends -- one to punch holes
in juice cans and the other to pop off the crown caps of soda and/or
beer bottles. In fact, here on the Gulf Coast, I wouldn't know another
automatic term for that handy little device.  ;-)

sally donlon


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Fri Feb 25 20:16:13 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 14:16:13 -0600
Subject: obsolescence; was Re: Re: church key 'beer-can opener' is obsolete
In-Reply-To: <192.3a6757f2.2f50bcc4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.141613.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In a message dated 2/25/05 12:31:43 PM, nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes:
>
>
>>
>>  Except that the item still exists. I just asked two graduate students
>>  (and another, I think he was an undergrad), if they knew what a
>>  church key was. The two graduate students didn't know what the term
>>  referred to, the other said it was a "very simple key" that opens
>>  anything, "like a skeleton key". However, when I drew a very crude
>>  picture of one (with both ends), both of the graduate students
>>  recognized the item--like Larry's son, they know the denotatum, even
>>  if they don't know the word (the undergrad had left before I was done
>>  with my artistic efforts).
>>
>
>Well, yeah, the punch-style can opener still exists (thought I doubt that
>Paul Newman still wears one on a chain around his neck, as his wife
>once reported that he did). It is just no longer very frequently
>referred to as a CHURCH KEY, for the sociolinguistic reasons I
>outlined in my previous e-mail. The slang term is obsolete. There
>must be other slang terms that are technologically obsolete as
>well--maybe PLATTERS 'phonograph records'? ICE BOX 'refrigerator'?

When does a word (phrase, term, what-have-you) become obsolete? I
mean, what makes it obsolete instead of rare or dialectal? I would
have thought it was when that item is not part of the vocabulary of
any speaker of a language (dialect, etc.). Since we have clear
evidence it is part of the vocabulary of a number of speakers on this
list, I would not call the term church key obsolete. Obsolescent,
maybe (unless we can revive its usage).

Barbara


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 25 20:54:00 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:54:00 EST
Subject: obsolescence vs. obsoleteness
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.155400.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/25/05 3:16:45 PM, nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes:


> When does a word (phrase, term, what-have-you) become obsolete? I
> mean, what makes it obsolete instead of rare or dialectal? I would
> have thought it was when that item is not part of the vocabulary of
> any speaker of a language (dialect, etc.). Since we have clear
> evidence it is part of the vocabulary of a number of speakers on this
> list, I would not call the term church key obsolete. Obsolescent,
> maybe (unless we can revive its usage).
>
I agree. I used the term "obsolete" a bit too loosely. Clearly, CHURCH KEY is
not totally obsolete--some people are still alive who use the term. However,
the evidence given here seems thus far to indicate that its use is more and
more confined to older persons, which, coupled with the fact that the pragmatic
conditions under which it was originally used have greatly altered, indicate
that it is well on its way towards becoming obsolete.

None of the evidence thus far given (at least in this round of discussion)
indicates that CHURCH KEY is "dialectal" (i.e., regionally limited in
distribution, or confined to a particular social class).

The e-Bay data that someone pointed us towards is quite interesting. Though I
did not look at all of the things offered for sale as "church keys," the
first few in the list that I saw were either true keys to churches or else bottle
openers, as opposed to punch-type openers, and appeared to be quite old. They
also actually look more like true keys than do the punch-type openers. They
were also identified with particular brands of beer. This suggests that CHURCH
KEY remains alive among collectors of beer paraphernalia as a kind of archaic
jargon.

As a youth, I would not have called anything a CHURCH KEY that didn't
primarily punch holes. But then I came of age at a time when bottled beer was less
common (outside bars) than canned beer.


From prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 21:17:17 2005
From: prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM (howard schrager)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:17:17 -0800
Subject: Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.131717.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Dear Alice
Thanks for responding. It appears the saying was strong in New York in the twenties. The Chicken in the Car saying appeared in the movie A River Runs Through back in the 90's. It was spoken by a letter carrier in Montana.
Yours, Howard Schrager

Alice Faber <faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Alice Faber
Organization: Haskins Laboratories
Subject: Re: Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

howard schrager wrote:
> I want to ask one more time if anyone knows specifics about the origins of the street rhymes: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork, that's the way to say New York, and Chicken in the Car and the Car Can't go, that's the way to say Chicago. My father learned them in the 20's on the streets of Philadelphia and/or New York.

I heard those from my father (both of them); he would have learned them
in NY, in the 20s. At that time, he might have still been living in the
Bronx, though he spent most of his childhood in Brooklyn (Bensonhurst).

--

Alice Faber

__________________________________________________
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From prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 21:20:46 2005
From: prncpmprnckl at YAHOO.COM (howard schrager)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 13:20:46 -0800
Subject: Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.132046.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thank you Doug. 1915 is as far back as I've heard.
Howard Schrager

"Douglas G. Wilson" <douglas at NB.NET> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: "Douglas G. Wilson"
Subject: Re: Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>I want to ask one more time if anyone knows specifics about the origins of
>the street rhymes: A Knife and a Fork and a Bottle and a Cork, that's the
>way to say New York, and Chicken in the Car and the Car Can't go, that's
>the way to say Chicago. My father learned them in the 20's on the streets
>of Philadelphia and/or New York.

I've seen several of these somewhere but I can't remember where. I surely
don't know anything about the origins.

The New York rhyme can be found from 1915 as a rebus (at N'archive). I
don't know whether that's early enough to be interesting.

-- Doug Wilson

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From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 25 21:37:37 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:37:37 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <E1D4jWL-00040q-00@mx07.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.163737.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was just going to ask that: wadn't it more than one kind of a church
key? In order to be defined as a church key, one end of the tool had to
have a doodad that punched a triangular hole into the end of a beer
can. The other end of the tool could be "blank," so to speak, or it
could have one of at least three kinds of crown-cap openers. There was
a kind of roughly circular or triangular shape that lifted off the cap
without obviously damaging it, leaving the impression that the cap
could be re-cycled. (It couldn't be.) Then there was a kind of hook-ish
shape that tended to slip off the crown cap, making it a pain to use,
and which definitely bent the crown cap out of shape. Then there was a
third shape that's even harder to describe, but I'm sure that the more
mature of us know what I mean. This also bent the cap out of shape.

-Wilson

(Just heard a trash-TV guest say about her ex, "He comes across as all
swah-VAY and everything.")

On Feb 25, 2005, at 12:44 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject:      Re: Church key anecdote
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Current ebay lot # 6157169131
> has 15 different church keys, of various sizes and shapes.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
> ViewItem&category=566&item=61571691
> 31&rd=1
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Fri Feb 25 22:03:29 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:03:29 -0500
Subject: y'all redux
In-Reply-To: <3rjp4a$83e1gg@mx14.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.170329.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Well, I was thinking that y'all could listen to them and make up y'all
own minds, since y'all know where I stand on this issue. I think that
Phillip McGraw now lives in Dallas, but I don't know whether he grew up
there or just moved there after becoming Dr. Phil. Also, I'm merely
offering Phil and Katie as random examples of native "y'all/you-all"
speakers. I'm not suggesting that either of them will necessarily
provide any evidence in support of my point of view.

-Wilson

On Feb 25, 2005, at 12:48 PM, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIOU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: y'all redux
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Do Dr. Phil and Katie Couric use y'all/you all in the pl. or sing. or
> both?  OK and (west?) TX, and WV (but probably not VA) might represent
> "fuzzy boundary" usage of sing. y'all (and even you all?)--in either
> the
> geographical sense I mentioned earlier or the politeness sense
> suggested by
> Jim.
>
> At 01:22 AM 2/25/2005, you wrote:
>> Inny y'all ever watch Dr. Phil? He's a fine example of a Southwestern
>> speaker. He's from Vinita, OK (not to be cofused with Vinita, MO),
>> originally, but he's lived in Texas for quite a while and uses a lot
>> of
>> "y'all." He even uses "hit" for "it"! And there's also Katie Couric. I
>> can't say that I've ever heard her use y'all, but she uses "you-all"
>> with a fairly high degree of regularity. She's a native of (West?)
>> Virginia, I believe.
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>>
>> On Feb 25, 2005, at 12:22 AM, James C Stalker wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       James C Stalker <stalker at MSU.EDU>
>>> Subject:      Re: y'all redux
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> --------
>>>
>>> I stand corrected.  In thinking about the data problem, Mike
>>> Montgomery's
>>> article in Am Speech on multiple modals comes to mind.  He has a
>>> relatively
>>> limited range of data, all painstakingly collected from reported data
>>> over
>>> quite a span of time, but the data make a convincing case for mms
>>> being
>>> polite forms. Following on from there, mm speakers will also be
>>> non--mm
>>> speakers, when the politeness needs are not relevant.  Sg/pl yall, if
>>> sg is
>>> polite, would follow the same pattern, making the collection of data
>>> more
>>> complex.  No one would ever be a consistent sg or pl yall person.
>>> They
>>> would always be both, but in different contexts.  Could this be a
>>> Northern/Southern shiboleth?
>>>
>>> Jim Stalker
>>>
>>> James C. Stalker
>>> Department of English
>>> Michigan State University
>


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Fri Feb 25 22:04:02 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:04:02 -0500
Subject: GOLF (Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden)
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.170402.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greetings again from Casa de Campo, a golf resort in the Dominican Republic.

My sister just told me the origin of GOLF, from the above. She's sure it's true. She read it on a Snapple bottletop!

Ugh. Does anyone know when this started? It doesn't seem to be on Newspaperarchive.


From jester at PANIX.COM  Fri Feb 25 22:04:56 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:04:56 -0500
Subject: GOLF (Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden)
In-Reply-To: <0DA3C423.08FD5ED1.0015B172@aol.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.170456.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Fri, Feb 25, 2005 at 05:04:02PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
> Greetings again from Casa de Campo, a golf resort in the Dominican Republic.
>
> My sister just told me the origin of GOLF, from the above. She's sure it's true. She read it on a Snapple bottletop!
>
> Ugh. Does anyone know when this started? It doesn't seem to be on Newspaperarchive.

It's quite widespread. I hear it all the time.

Jesse Sheidlower


From pulliam at IIT.EDU  Fri Feb 25 22:44:44 2005
From: pulliam at IIT.EDU (Greg Pulliam)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:44:44 -0600
Subject: time machine=ATM
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.164444.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I had a student report the following to me today:

>Greg,
>i was working at the hotel today and for the first time someone asked
>me where the time machine was, she referred to the atm as the time
>machine.
>
>-Jeri
--
-
Gregory J. Pulliam
Lewis Department of Humanities
218 Siegel Hall/3301 South Dearborn
Illinois Institute of Technology
Chicago, IL   60616

312.567.7968 or 312.567.3465

pulliam at iit.edu
http://www.iit.edu/~gpulliam


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Fri Feb 25 22:55:24 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:55:24 -0600
Subject: time machine=ATM
In-Reply-To: <p0621020ebe455a5b385d@[192.168.11.2]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.165524.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>I had a student report the following to me today:
>
>>Greg,
>>i was working at the hotel today and for the first time someone asked
>>me where the time machine was, she referred to the atm as the time
>>machine.
>>
>>-Jeri
>--
>-
>Gregory J. Pulliam

Where is she from? When I lived in Milwaukee (82-84) and was first
using ATMs, the system available to me was a TYME machine (I don't
remember what that stood for). It was something else, when I came to
Chicago (different banks). You (all) may or may not not remember that
you didn't used to be able to use your ATM card in other networks (or
even in other places)! Now I have not doubt that the ATM I put my
card in will recognize it (even if there are OTHER problems with
getting my money).

Barbara


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 23:18:13 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:18:13 -0800
Subject: church key 'bee              r-can opener' is obsolete
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.151813.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

A Google search reveals roughly 5,000 hits for "church-key" + "beer-can" and "church-key" +
"bottle-opener."

Obsolete or obsolescent ?

Or neither ?

JL

RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: RonButters at AOL.COM
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20church=20key=20'bee?
= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?r-can=20opener'=20is=20obsolete?=
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In a message dated 2/25/05 12:31:43 PM, nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU writes:


>
> Except that the item still exists. I just asked two graduate students
> (and another, I think he was an undergrad), if they knew what a
> church key was. The two graduate students didn't know what the term
> referred to, the other said it was a "very simple key" that opens
> anything, "like a skeleton key". However, when I drew a very crude
> picture of one (with both ends), both of the graduate students
> recognized the item--like Larry's son, they know the denotatum, even
> if they don't know the word (the undergrad had left before I was done
> with my artistic efforts).
>

Well, yeah, the punch-style can opener still exists (thought I doubt that
Paul Newman still wears one on a chain around his neck, as his wife once reported
that he did). It is just no longer very frequently referred to as a CHURCH
KEY, for the sociolinguistic reasons I outlined in my previous e-mail. The slang
term is obsolete. There must be other slang terms that are technologically
obsolete as well--maybe PLATTERS 'phonograph records'? ICE BOX 'refrigerator'?


---------------------------------
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From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Fri Feb 25 23:21:31 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 15:21:31 -0800
Subject: Church key anecdote
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.152131.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In my experience it can be either a can- or a bottle-opener, so long as the substance to be got at is some form of beer.

JL


Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Church key anecdote
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was just going to ask that: wadn't it more than one kind of a church
key? In order to be defined as a church key, one end of the tool had to
have a doodad that punched a triangular hole into the end of a beer
can. The other end of the tool could be "blank," so to speak, or it
could have one of at least three kinds of crown-cap openers. There was
a kind of roughly circular or triangular shape that lifted off the cap
without obviously damaging it, leaving the impression that the cap
could be re-cycled. (It couldn't be.) Then there was a kind of hook-ish
shape that tended to slip off the crown cap, making it a pain to use,
and which definitely bent the crown cap out of shape. Then there was a
third shape that's even harder to describe, but I'm sure that the more
mature of us know what I mean. This also bent the cap out of shape.

-Wilson

(Just heard a trash-TV guest say about her ex, "He comes across as all
swah-VAY and everything.")

On Feb 25, 2005, at 12:44 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: "Mullins, Bill"
> Subject: Re: Church key anecdote
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Current ebay lot # 6157169131
> has 15 different church keys, of various sizes and shapes.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
> ViewItem&category=566&item=61571691
> 31&rd=1
>


---------------------------------
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From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 23:41:50 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:41:50 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <p06020409be45119378dd@[128.135.198.250]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.184150.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:50 AM -0600 2/25/05, Barbara Need wrote:
>>Contrary to what appears to be popular belief, screw-off tops are
>>far from universal.  For some reason,

I submit the reason is that this property places them in a natural
class with European brews, in which class they basically belong by
intrinsic considerations (and certainly by budgetary ones).  It's
something like an analogue of cork-bottled vs. screw-top wines,
although the analogy isn't precise.

>>at least the microbrews I
>>drink come in bottles with tops that still need to be pried off.
>
>[stuff deleted]
>
>>Peter Mc.
>
>Well, and screw-off tops are often very hard to GET off! They still
>have the crimping around the edges and I find a church key (or other
>bottle opener) still the best way to get the tops off beer and soda
>(pop, soda pop, tonic, soft drink) bottles.

True, although there's a marginal argument for unscrewing them (if
they do unscrew), which is that it's easier to screw the top back on
if you don't finish the contents at one sitting.

larry


From preston at MSU.EDU  Fri Feb 25 23:47:52 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:47:52 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <p04320400be45675316be@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.184752.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

No, you cannot screw the top back on; wine and beer go flat. With
wine you can use something like Vacuvin to pump the air out; never
tried it with beer, but then I'm a wino.

dInIs



>At 11:50 AM -0600 2/25/05, Barbara Need wrote:
>>>Contrary to what appears to be popular belief, screw-off tops are
>>>far from universal.  For some reason,
>
>I submit the reason is that this property places them in a natural
>class with European brews, in which class they basically belong by
>intrinsic considerations (and certainly by budgetary ones).  It's
>something like an analogue of cork-bottled vs. screw-top wines,
>although the analogy isn't precise.
>
>>>at least the microbrews I
>>>drink come in bottles with tops that still need to be pried off.
>>
>>[stuff deleted]
>>
>>>Peter Mc.
>>
>>Well, and screw-off tops are often very hard to GET off! They still
>>have the crimping around the edges and I find a church key (or other
>>bottle opener) still the best way to get the tops off beer and soda
>>(pop, soda pop, tonic, soft drink) bottles.
>
>True, although there's a marginal argument for unscrewing them (if
>they do unscrew), which is that it's easier to screw the top back on
>if you don't finish the contents at one sitting.
>
>larry


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 23:57:15 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:57:15 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <85BFB4632E527145821B5DA68B6E209D1CA7CD@AMR-EX8.ds.amrdec.army.mil>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.185715.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:44 AM -0600 2/25/05, Mullins, Bill wrote:
>Current ebay lot # 6157169131
>has 15 different church keys, of various sizes and shapes.
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=566&item=61571691
>31&rd=1

At 11:40 or so in this display is a CK much like the one I ended up
buying to replace the several CKs we have that were all in hiding at
the time.  (The ones with the three-dimensional bottle opener on the
other side of the triangle are also the most useful device I've come
across for prying up the metal lids of certain imported jars, like
the ones mole poblano comes in; the flat kind of bottle openers,
several of which are pictured here, are totally useless for that
task.)  What makes this particular variant a curiosity (to me) is
that printed on the white plastic connector (on the obverse side from
a very handy refrigerator magnet) are block letters at each end
reading BOTTLES and CANS respectively.  In the old days, no labels
were needed.  Next, there will be a set of instructions for use.
("Place protruding flange of triangular device against lid of can,
apply pressure at a 90 degree angle...")

Larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Fri Feb 25 23:58:50 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:58:50 -0500
Subject: GOLF (Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden)
In-Reply-To: <20050225220456.GA22227@panix.com>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.185850.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 5:04 PM -0500 2/25/05, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>On Fri, Feb 25, 2005 at 05:04:02PM -0500, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:
>>  Greetings again from Casa de Campo, a golf resort in the Dominican Republic.
>>
>>  My sister just told me the origin of GOLF, from the above. She's
>>sure it's true. She read it on a Snapple bottletop!
>>
>>  Ugh. Does anyone know when this started? It doesn't seem to be on
>>Newspaperarchive.
>
>It's quite widespread. I hear it all the time.
>
>Jesse Sheidlower

Perhaps Michael Quinion covers that in his "POSH" book.  It's from
the same tradition of faux acronymy.

larry


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 26 00:00:16 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:00:16 -0500
Subject: time machine=ATM
In-Reply-To: <p0602040bbe455c910cc0@[128.135.198.250]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.190016.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 4:55 PM -0600 2/25/05, Barbara Need wrote:
>>I had a student report the following to me today:
>>
>>>Greg,
>>>i was working at the hotel today and for the first time someone asked
>>>me where the time machine was, she referred to the atm as the time
>>>machine.
>>>
>>>-Jeri
>>--
>>-
>>Gregory J. Pulliam
>
>Where is she from? When I lived in Milwaukee (82-84) and was first
>using ATMs, the system available to me was a TYME machine (I don't
>remember what that stood for).

"Take Your Money Everywhere".

(We had them in Madison in the late 1970s.)

>  It was something else, when I came to
>Chicago (different banks). You (all) may or may not not remember that
>you didn't used to be able to use your ATM card in other networks (or
>even in other places)! Now I have not doubt that the ATM I put my
>card in will recognize it (even if there are OTHER problems with
>getting my money).
>
>Barbara


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Sat Feb 26 00:04:05 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:04:05 -0800
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <p04320402be4569418aec@[130.132.231.149]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.160405.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

--On Friday, February 25, 2005 6:57 PM -0500 Laurence Horn
<laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:

>  Next, there will be a set of instructions for use.
> ("Place protruding flange of triangular device against lid of can,
> apply pressure at a 90 degree angle...")


No, no, Larry--next there will be a page of dire WARNING!s (marked by
triangular yellow traffic-type signs containing a large exclamation point)
about the many creative ways you could injure yourself through improper
use, admonitions not to swallow the opener or use it to pull your own
teeth, remove ear wax, etc.

Peter Mc.

*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 26 00:27:31 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:27:31 -0500
Subject: Unuses
In-Reply-To: <002601c51b60$48c1d4c0$0201a8c0@ufficiobx6kaeg>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.192731.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:34 PM +0100 2/25/05, Amorelli wrote:
>Looks like an overdose of 'Newspeak' (cf. George Orwell's '1984', first
>published in 1949!), although the Author's imagination did not extend to
>rendering 'sight' semi(?)-phonetically.
>M.I.Amorelli
>Faculties of Law and Economics,
>University of Sassari

I'm pretty sure Newspeak only generalizes "un-" for adjectives, where
it is used productively to replace "negative" contraries:  "ungood"
for "bad", "unstrong" for "weak", "doubleplusungood" for "very bad",
etc.  Curiously, although I'm not sure Orwell was aware of it,
Newspeak in this respect precisely mirrors earlier stages of English:
================
There is...considerable restriction in the use of un- with short
simple adjectives of native origin, the negative of these being
naturally supplied by another simple word of an opposite
signification.  There is thus little or no tendency now to employ
such forms as unbroad, undeep, unwide, unbold, unglad, ungood,
unstrong, unwhole, [etc.] which freely occur in the older language.
(OED, un- 1, 7; the same general asymmetry (described by Jespersen,
Zimmer, and others) evidently obtained in the "older language" as in
Newspeak in that no adjectives of the form "unbad", "unweak",
"unnarrow" are attested.)

But I'm pretty sure Orwell didn't generalize this to verbs.  On the
other hand, earlier English--through Middle and Early Modern
Eng.--lacked the aspectual constraint on un-verbs we now do, so it in
fact allowed verbs like "unbe", "unbetide" ('not to happen'),
"untrusten", "uncomprehend", "unbecome".  There's apparently no
"unhave" as such--but the OED does include one nonce occurrence of
"unhaving" coupled with "unknowing":

1449 PECOCK Repr. I. xvi. 89 For harme which y haue knowen come bi
defaut and the vnhauying and the vnknowing of this..consideracioun.

But I have to admit that the replacement of "lack" with "unhave", as
below, does seem to be in the spirit if not the letter of Newspeak.

Larry

P.S.  There are a handful of cites for "unsee", but it's not like the
"unsite" below, a simple 'not to see', but rather the standard
change-of-state meaning we get with modern "unwrap", "unsay",
"unhappen":

1865 J. GROTE Explor. Philos. I. 243 We cannot unsee the prospect before us.
1871 KINGSLEY At Last xvii, At last we had seen it; and we could not unsee it.

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ed Keer" <edkeer at YAHOO.COM>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 9:56 PM
>Subject: Unuses
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>header -----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Ed Keer <edkeer at YAHOO.COM>
>>Subject:      Unuses
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>I have a friend who works at a well known news
>>organization. He says that they use "unsite" and
>>"unhave" as verbs in written communications about
>>stories:
>>
>>"Unhave India-Tsunami, pls resend." means "I don't
>>have the India-Tsunami story, please resend it."
>>
>>"Unsite" means something like, "I don't see..."
>>
>>I don't think anyone ever uses them when speaking, but
>>these sound awful to me. Has anyone ever talked about
>>this?
>>
>>Ed
>>
>>
>>
>>__________________________________
>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>>http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.3.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005
>>
>
>
>
>--
>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 26 00:33:00 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:33:00 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <a06020400be45694b7522@[192.168.1.2]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.193300.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 6:47 PM -0500 2/25/05, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>No, you cannot screw the top back on; wine and beer go flat.

Not in three hours, though.  Trust me on that.

and at 4:04 PM -0800 2/25/05, Peter A. McGraw wrote:
>>  Next, there will be a set of instructions for use.
>>("Place protruding flange of triangular device against lid of can,
>>apply pressure at a 90 degree angle...")
>
>No, no, Larry--next there will be a page of dire WARNING!s (marked by
>triangular yellow traffic-type signs containing a large exclamation point)
>about the many creative ways you could injure yourself through improper
>use, admonitions not to swallow the opener or use it to pull your own
>teeth, remove ear wax, etc.
>
...or to attempt to gain illegal entry into houses of worship.
And a disclaimer to the effect that the manufacturer is not liable
for any injuries incurred by using object as sex toy, etc.

L


From dave at WILTON.NET  Sat Feb 26 01:30:36 2005
From: dave at WILTON.NET (Dave Wilton)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:30:36 -0800
Subject: GOLF (Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden)
In-Reply-To: <p04320403be456c073194@[130.132.231.149]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.173036.0800.>

> Perhaps Michael Quinion covers that in his "POSH" book.  It's from
> the same tradition of faux acronymy.

I debunk it in "Word Myths." I couldn't find anything on the origin of the
myth, though. It's been around for a long time.

--Dave Wilton
  dave at wilton.net
  http://www.wilton.net


From nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU  Sat Feb 26 01:55:33 2005
From: nee1 at MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU (Barbara Need)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 19:55:33 -0600
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <p04320400be45675316be@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.195533.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>>Well, and screw-off tops are often very hard to GET off! They still
>>have the crimping around the edges and I find a church key (or other
>>bottle opener) still the best way to get the tops off beer and soda
>>(pop, soda pop, tonic, soft drink) bottles.
>
>True, although there's a marginal argument for unscrewing them (if
>they do unscrew), which is that it's easier to screw the top back on
>if you don't finish the contents at one sitting.

True enough. However, I have managed to replace bottle caps pried
off. I don't actually HAVE a church key, but the bottle openers I use
don't deform the cap that badly.

Barbara


From stalker at MSU.EDU  Sat Feb 26 02:44:46 2005
From: stalker at MSU.EDU (James C Stalker)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:44:46 -0500
Subject: obsolescene [was church key]
In-Reply-To: <cd34ece00f90a9c27a8b8b8fa0c01d99@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.214446.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        The ?ice box? example opens some interesting connections among
language, metaphor, and technology.  When I was young, we had an ice box.
My father would bring home blocks of ice and place them in the appropriate
compartment, and replace the ice as necessary.  When we had an electric
machine that manufactured its own ice, I, of course, still called it an ice
box.  That?s what it was. How the ice got in it was immaterial.  In time
brand names (Frigidare) or generic labels based on function (refrigerator)
replaced ice box, just because more people used those terms.  The original
named object has been replaced by other versions, and has become a box that
makes ice rather than a box that holds ice, apparently, a significant shift.
The term has, for the most part, disappeared, although, denotatively, it
needn?t have.  It is still an ice box.
        Church key takes a different course.  Several posters still use them, but
don?t always call them a ?church key.?  I make sure that I have one
around for various reasons.  There are still cans to be opened without
automatic tops, such as large juice cans, which generally don?t fit
electric openers, and can be opened with a screw type can opener, but that
is inconvenient. The tool is available in stores, although not always
readily.  The tool remains, but the name is passing.  The possible visual
physical connection with keys for churches (the e-Bay post) and the possible
metaphoric oxymoron are passing, but the tool lives on.
        Both terms seem to be disappearing, but for quite different reasons.

Jim Stalker

James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University


From vnend at ADELPHIA.NET  Sat Feb 26 02:54:08 2005
From: vnend at ADELPHIA.NET (David W. James)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 21:54:08 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <20050225234755.MUSW2140.mta3.adelphia.net@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.215408.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 25, 2005, at 6:47 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
> No, you cannot screw the top back on; wine and beer go flat. With
> wine you can use something like Vacuvin to pump the air out; never
> tried it with beer, but then I'm a wino.

> dInIs

        The wine doesn't go flat (unless it is champagne or the like), it
oxidizes.  Your Vacuvin works by removing a lot of the oxygen in the
bottle until your next use (and it does help slow things down.)  I
don't recommend using it on something that is carbonated though, as the
lower pressure will make it lose its carbonation faster...

        (Flat beer.  Blah.)

David
(Heard 'church key' for a bottle opener for the first time within the
last two years.)


From RonButters at AOL.COM  Sat Feb 26 04:25:19 2005
From: RonButters at AOL.COM (RonButters at AOL.COM)
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 23:25:19 EST
Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20church=20key=20'bee?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?r-can=20opener'=20is=20obsolete?=
Message-ID: <FRI.25.FEB.2005.232519.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In a message dated 2/25/05 6:18:49 PM, wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM writes:


> A Google search reveals roughly 5,000 hits for "church-key" + "beer-can" 
> and "church-key" +
> "bottle-opener."
> 
> Obsolete or obsolescent ?
> 
> Or neither ?
> 
> JL
> 

It depends of course on the nature of the cites. 5,000 hits seems like a lot, 
but if they largely represent (a) collectors and (b) the language of older 
people, then "archaic" or "bercoming obsolete" makes sense. In any 
case--AGAIN--the fact that there are a fair number of hits on Google seems to support the 
conclusion that the term was not a REGIONAL one, which is where all this 
discussion really started.

Also, I'm not sure where the "roughly 5,000 hits" comes from. I found only 
1,500 hits for "church-key + bottle-opener" and 817 hits for "Church-key" + 
"beer-can"; many were duplicates. Of the first ten for "beer can," most were or 
contained definitions of CHURCH KEY, indicating that the term was assumed to be 
unknown to the reader. Several describe CHURCH KEY using the past tense:


Church Key
... on through my newspaper column a question from a Maryland reader about 
why "the
tool that punches a triangular hole in a beer can is called a church key," 
... ...
plateaupress.com.au/wfw/churchke.htm - 4k - <nCached - Similar?pages

 Word for Word Archive
... Jennifer Dick McQ: A church key was used to punch a triangular hole in 
the top of
a can, usually a beer can, (before cans were produced with the rings that ...
plateaupress.com.au/wfw/churckey.htm - 2k - <nCached - Similar?pages

 Beer Can Lingo
Do you have a beer cans or just a beer can collection that you want to sell 
... The tops
are flat, and to open them, you had to use an opener called a "church key". 
...
www.beercanworld.com/beercans_terms.htm - 12k - <nCached - Similar?pages
 Basic Beer-Can Chicken Recipe - Home Cooking
... can. Pour half of the beer (3/4 cup) over the soaking wood chips or 
chunks, or reserve
for another use. If cooking the chicken on the can, using a church key- ...
homecooking.about.com/library/archive/blpoul63.htm - 31k - Feb 23, 2005 - <n
Cached - Similar?pages
 ConeTops.com - Collecting and Selling of Old Beer and Soda Cans
... spouted tops (cone tops) or need a can opener (church key) to open ... 
Stories : Flash
Intro : Links : Can Emporium Guestbook : Contact Us : Beer Can Slot Machine 
...
www.conetops.com/sell.html - 28k - <nCached - Similar?pages
 Zip Tops
... maker named Ermal Fraze, according to legend, found himself at a picnic 
with beer,
but no church key to open ... 1. This is the first pull tab beer can ever 
made. ...
www.rustycans.com/zips.html - 11k - <nCached - Similar?pages

 Definitions
... Church key: a device invented with the beer can which was used to punch 
holes
in the can's lid in order to pour out the can's contents. ...
www.rustycans.com/definitions.html - 24k - <nCached - Similar?pages
[ More results from www.rustycans.com ]

 GMA Recipe: Beer Can Chicken: Great on the Grill
... 3. Pop the tab on the beer can. Using a "church key"-style can opener ,
make 6 or 7 holes in the top of the can. Pour out the top ...
www.wchstv.com/gmarecipes/beercanchicken.shtml - 19k - <nCached - 
Similar?pages
 broadband ? Forums ? Seti at Home club ? [OT] Retro beer can?
... Drunkula Premium clubs: 2000-06-12 Loc:Denton, TX ?Charter Pipeline, [OT] 
Retro
beer can? ... on the side showing how to open the can using a church-key type 
can ...
www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,12752054~mode=flat - <nSimilar?pages
 Brewmeister's Chicken: Beer Can Chicken Recipe
... Using a church key can opener, make 2 additional holes in the top of the 
can ... the
opening of the body cavity at the bottom, and lower it onto the beer can so 
the ...


From wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG  Sat Feb 26 09:02:27 2005
From: wordseditor at WORLDWIDEWORDS.ORG (Michael Quinion)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 09:02:27 -0000
Subject: GOLF (Gentlemen Only, Ladies Forbidden)
In-Reply-To: <p04320403be456c073194@[130.132.231.149]>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.090227.0000.>

Laurence Horn wrote

> Perhaps Michael Quinion covers that in his "POSH" book.  It's from the
> same tradition of faux acronymy.

I did, though only to point out that it was a joke and as an excuse
to give what was known about the real origin. I wasn't able to find
any evidence for where it comes from, except that it often appears in
those joke etymological e-mails that circulate endlessly and which
assert, for example, that a wake is so called because people sit
about the corpse to watch it in case it wakes up.

--
Michael Quinion
Editor, World Wide Words
E-mail: <wordseditor at worldwidewords.org>
Web: <http://www.worldwidewords.org/>


From mlee303 at YAHOO.COM  Sat Feb 26 09:44:30 2005
From: mlee303 at YAHOO.COM (Margaret Lee)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 01:44:30 -0800
Subject: time machine=ATM
In-Reply-To: <p04320404be456c5543e2@[130.132.231.149]>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.014430.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

When my children were growing up, I told them to think of the  ATM as "Any Time Money" (as opposed to time restrictions/banking hours for getting money from a bank).


Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU> wrote:
At 4:55 PM -0600 2/25/05, Barbara Need wrote:
>>I had a student report the following to me today:
>>
>>>Greg,
>>>i was working at the hotel today and for the first time someone asked
>>>me where the time machine was, she referred to the atm as the time
>>>machine.
>>>
>>>-Jeri
>>--
>>-
>>Gregory J. Pulliam
>
>Where is she from? When I lived in Milwaukee (82-84) and was first
>using ATMs, the system available to me was a TYME machine (I don't
>remember what that stood for).

"Take Your Money Everywhere".

(We had them in Madison in the late 1970s.)

> It was something else, when I came to
>Chicago (different banks). You (all) may or may not not remember that
>you didn't used to be able to use your ATM card in other networks (or
>even in other places)! Now I have not doubt that the ATM I put my
>card in will recognize it (even if there are OTHER problems with
>getting my money).
>
>Barbara


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.


From preston at MSU.EDU  Sat Feb 26 10:33:11 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 05:33:11 -0500
Subject: Church key anecdote
In-Reply-To: <123be9c8b31d09d0a3c4f6ed4a9985cb@adelphia.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.053311.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Yes; you are quite right. "Flat" is the folk term I use for the
oxidation process which wine suffers.

dInIs

>On Feb 25, 2005, at 6:47 PM, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
>>No, you cannot screw the top back on; wine and beer go flat. With
>>wine you can use something like Vacuvin to pump the air out; never
>>tried it with beer, but then I'm a wino.
>
>>dInIs
>
>        The wine doesn't go flat (unless it is champagne or the like), it
>oxidizes.  Your Vacuvin works by removing a lot of the oxygen in the
>bottle until your next use (and it does help slow things down.)  I
>don't recommend using it on something that is carbonated though, as the
>lower pressure will make it lose its carbonation faster...
>
>        (Flat beer.  Blah.)
>
>David
>(Heard 'church key' for a bottle opener for the first time within the
>last two years.)


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor of Linguistics
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic, Asian, and African Languages
A-740 Wells Hall
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824
Phone: (517) 432-3099
Fax: (517) 432-2736
preston at msu.edu


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Feb 26 11:47:55 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 06:47:55 -0500
Subject: Safire: 'It's A Wrap'
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.064755.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Safire's "On Language" column this week ('It's A Wrap') questions a scene
in _The Aviator_ in which a party for the 1930 film _Hell's Angels_
features a sign reading, "Hell's Angels 'It's a Wrap'".

-----
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/27/magazine/27ONLANGUAGE.html
When did "wrap up" (or "wrapping up," first cited in the sense of
"finishing," in a 1926 book by T.E. Lawrence, best known as Lawrence of
Arabia) turn the verb into a noun, as in "That's a wrap"? The OED's first
citation is from a 1974 cinematographic novel by Michael Ayrton: "Other
cars are heard starting up out of shot and the lights on the pergola go
off, so I assume it's a wrap and the crew is listening to the director
saying something consequential and busy about tomorrow's call."
However, assiduous research turns up this 1957 entry in Charlton Heston's
journal, quoted in the 1998 edition of This Is Orson Welles, by Welles and
Peter Bogdanovich: "We rehearsed all day. . . the studio brass gathering
in the shadows in anxious little knots. By the time we began filming at
5:45, I knew they'd written off the whole day. At 7:40, Orson said: 'OK,
print. That's a wrap on this set.'"
Thus, it appears that the switch from "wrap it up" to "that's a wrap" took
place in the '50s. That seems to make its use in The Aviator about a party
in 1930 an anachronism (from the Greek ana,"back," and chronos, "time").
How does one get this evidence? Went to Amazon.com; searched for
autobiographies of film directors like John Ford, Alfred Hitchcock and
Orson Welles; hit the "search inside the book" feature for "wrap" and up
came the Heston usage in Welles's book. The word hounds and phrase dicks
of the American Dialect Society's listserv may now find an earlier
citation to cast doubt on my conclusion; that's the fun in this
etymological dodge.
-----

Nice plug for the list, but one wonders why Safire didn't consult those
word hounds and phrase dicks *before* writing the column.  In any case,
his (or his assistant's) Amazon-aided research looks like it stands up --
I don't see anything on the databases antedating Heston's 1957 citation
for the noun "wrap".  There are earlier cinematic cites for "wrap-up",
however:

-----
1948 _Mansfield News Journal_ (Ohio) 26 Dec. 7/6 No story, production or
cast values were cut, "but the swift wrap-up would have been impossible
without the full cooperation of the star, Kirk Douglas."
-----
1951 _New York Times_ 11 Nov. X5/4 But just as the cameras were about to
grind, the head lensman and the director decided the light was not good
enough to capture the color of the scene and called for a "wrap up."
-----

Also, Safire only bothered to antedate the noun "wrap" and not the verb
"wrap up", simply stating that it was "first cited in the sense of
'finishing,' in a 1926 book by T.E. Lawrence."  But the OED2's Lawrence
citation doesn't even fit this sense, instead meaning 'to defeat':

-----
1926 T. E. LAWRENCE Seven Pillars (1935) III. xxxvi. 213 The British were
wrapping up the Arabs on all sides--at Aden, at Gaza, at Bagdad.
-----

Regardless of the Lawrence quote, cites are readily available for the
'finishing' sense of "wrap up" before 1926, in both the worlds of film and
sport.  Jesse Sheidlower came across this entry in a film glossary in the
L.A. Times:

-----
1925 Los Angeles Times 29 Nov. II6/2 _Wrap 'em up,_ dismantling and
packing of the cameras.
-----

Clearly the expression originally referred to a literal "wrapping up" of
film equipment.  Early sports usages also tend to be rather literal, e.g.,
referring to a trophy or title as being "(all) wrapped up" for a presumed
victor.  The 1925 cite below is more figurative, however:

-----
1923 _Iowa City Press Citizen_ 28 Jul. 3/4 In his final round, if he could
have played the last three holes in par, four strokes each, he had the
championship all wrapped up and tucked away in his bag.
-----
1925 _Appleton Post Crescent_ (Wisc.) 17 Jun. 13/1 Walter Johnson Tuesday
wrapped up a beautiful shutout victory for the Senators over the Browns, 3
to 0.
-----

The phrase "wrap (it) up" meaning 'to finish (something)' started
appearing more frequently in the '30s, but was still mostly restricted to
cinematic and sporting usage.


--Ben Zimmer


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Sat Feb 26 11:50:13 2005
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 05:50:13 -0600
Subject: Church key anecdote/screw tops
In-Reply-To: <p06020403be458713a124@[10.0.1.2]>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.055013.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The main reason that screw top bottles have never really caught on is
the resistance to them by fine restaurants.
I mean, if you bring your own wine: what  are they going to do, charge
you screwage?

>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sat Feb 26 12:02:53 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 07:02:53 -0500
Subject: Safire: 'It's A Wrap'
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.070253.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 06:47:55 -0500, Benjamin Zimmer
<bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU> wrote:

>Regardless of the Lawrence quote, cites are readily available for the
>'finishing' sense of "wrap up" before 1926, in both the worlds of film and
>sport.  Jesse Sheidlower came across this entry in a film glossary in the
>L.A. Times:
>
>-----
>1925 Los Angeles Times 29 Nov. II6/2 _Wrap 'em up,_ dismantling and
>packing of the cameras.
>-----

Credit where credit is due: Barry Popik transcribed the full glossary in a
Sep. 2003 post...

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0309C&L=ads-l&P=R2070&m=27187


--Ben Zimmer


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Sat Feb 26 12:06:52 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:06:52 +0000
Subject: squnchy - neologism or misprint
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.120652.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

'His hands stroked her smooth hips and steadied her pelvis, and he carefully
lodged the swollen head of his cock in her squnchy vulva...'
-Don Tsuris, 'Twice As Nice Vice', Beeline 6789, USA, 1980s (www.asstr.org)

Possibly the result of an ORD'd text for online reading.


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Sat Feb 26 12:11:29 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:11:29 +0000
Subject: squnchy - neologism or misprint
In-Reply-To: <200502261207.j1QC74d2002621@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.121129.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ooops! - that should have read ORC'd text

-Neil Crawford


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Sat Feb 26 12:12:39 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:12:39 +0000
Subject: squnchy - neologism or misprint
In-Reply-To: <200502261207.j1QC74d2002621@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.121239.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Ignore previous post - that's OCR'd!
-Neil C


From mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT  Sat Feb 26 12:43:40 2005
From: mariam11 at VIRGILIO.IT (Amorelli)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 13:43:40 +0100
Subject: Unuses
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.134340.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Thankyou for your extensive response which certainly gives food for thought.
Can I share it with my students?  My edition of the work (Penguin Books,
publ. 1989) has on page 315 : "In addition, any word -this [..] applied in
principle to every word in the language - could be negatived by adding the
affix un-, or could be strengthened by the affix plus-, or, for still
greater emphasis, doubleplus-." However, the author gives no example, either
here in the Appendix, or indeed in the story itself, of these affixes on
verbs.
As for 'unsee', I remember having to do 'unseens' during my Classics
studies. These were translations done 'cold', as it were, i.e. never seen
before the examination itself. My problem :)) was with '[...]site' rather
than sight, or 'sait'

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2005 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: Unuses

> I'm pretty sure Newspeak only generalizes "un-" for adjectives, where
> it is used productively to replace "negative" contraries:  "ungood"
> for "bad", "unstrong" for "weak", "doubleplusungood" for "very bad",
> etc.  Curiously, although I'm not sure Orwell was aware of it,
> Newspeak in this respect precisely mirrors earlier stages of English:
> ================
> There is...considerable restriction in the use of un- with short
> simple adjectives of native origin, the negative of these being
> naturally supplied by another simple word of an opposite
> signification.  There is thus little or no tendency now to employ
> such forms as unbroad, undeep, unwide, unbold, unglad, ungood,
> unstrong, unwhole, [etc.] which freely occur in the older language.
> (OED, un- 1, 7; the same general asymmetry (described by Jespersen,
> Zimmer, and others) evidently obtained in the "older language" as in
> Newspeak in that no adjectives of the form "unbad", "unweak",
> "unnarrow" are attested.)
>
> But I'm pretty sure Orwell didn't generalize this to verbs.  On the
> other hand, earlier English--through Middle and Early Modern
> Eng.--lacked the aspectual constraint on un-verbs we now do, so it in
> fact allowed verbs like "unbe", "unbetide" ('not to happen'),
> "untrusten", "uncomprehend", "unbecome".  There's apparently no
> "unhave" as such--but the OED does include one nonce occurrence of
> "unhaving" coupled with "unknowing":
>
> 1449 PECOCK Repr. I. xvi. 89 For harme which y haue knowen come bi
> defaut and the vnhauying and the vnknowing of this..consideracioun.
>
> But I have to admit that the replacement of "lack" with "unhave", as
> below, does seem to be in the spirit if not the letter of Newspeak.
>
> Larry
>
> P.S.  There are a handful of cites for "unsee", but it's not like the
> "unsite" below, a simple 'not to see', but rather the standard
> change-of-state meaning we get with modern "unwrap", "unsay",
> "unhappen":
>
> 1865 J. GROTE Explor. Philos. I. 243 We cannot unsee the prospect before
> us.
> 1871 KINGSLEY At Last xvii, At last we had seen it; and we could not unsee
> it.
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Ed Keer" <edkeer at YAHOO.COM>
>>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 9:56 PM
>>Subject: Unuses
>>
>>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>header -----------------------
>>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>Poster:       Ed Keer <edkeer at YAHOO.COM>
>>>Subject:      Unuses
>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>I have a friend who works at a well known news
>>>organization. He says that they use "unsite" and
>>>"unhave" as verbs in written communications about
>>>stories:
>>>
>>>"Unhave India-Tsunami, pls resend." means "I don't
>>>have the India-Tsunami story, please resend it."
>>>
>>>"Unsite" means something like, "I don't see..."
>>>
>>>I don't think anyone ever uses them when speaking, but
>>>these sound awful to me. Has anyone ever talked about
>>>this?
>>>
>>>Ed
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>__________________________________
>>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>>Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
>>>http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>>>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.3.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>No virus found in this outgoing message.
>>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
>>Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005
>



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.0 - Release Date: 25/02/2005


From neil at TYPOG.CO.UK  Sat Feb 26 12:55:08 2005
From: neil at TYPOG.CO.UK (neil)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:55:08 +0000
Subject: squnchy - neologism or misprint
In-Reply-To: <200502261207.j1QC74d2002621@i-194-106-56-142.freedom2surf.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.125508.0000.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

on 26/2/05 12:06 pm, neil at neil at TYPOG.CO.UK wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       neil <neil at TYPOG.CO.UK>
> Subject:      squnchy - neologism or misprint
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--> -
>
> 'His hands stroked her smooth hips and steadied her pelvis, and he carefully
> lodged the swollen head of his cock in her squnchy vulva...'
> -Don Tsuris, 'Twice As Nice Vice', Beeline 6789, USA, 1980s (www.asstr.org)
>
> Possibly the result of an ORD'd text for online reading.

same source:
'squinchy hot slit'


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Sat Feb 26 13:38:37 2005
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:38:37 -0500
Subject: Michigan Troll
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.083837.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

from another list:

---
____'s elementary school has been on break this week, so she has been
attending a day program [elsewhere] with some kind of field trip each day.

Yesterday, they went to the Scrap Box, a place where all kinds of scrap
materials are available for kids to make stuff with.

One of _____'s projects consisted of a six-inch square piece of black
foam, flat on the table, with many small round objects glued to it, and a
long black cardboard tube rising from one corner.

It's Michigan Troll, she explained.

I didn't understand.

First, you press this button, then this button, she said.  Then, there's a
message here from Michigan Troll.  Then, you press this button.  Ten,
nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one, blastoff!  And this
part is the spacecraft.
-----

Bethany


From preston at MSU.EDU  Sat Feb 26 13:47:10 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:47:10 -0500
Subject: Michigan Troll
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0502260836180.19803@larry.cas.utk.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.084710.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bethany,

As any US map will show you, there is an Upper Peninsula and a Lower
Peninsula which make up the State of MI; many years ago a spectacular
bridge was built to connect the two. Now those of us who live "below
the bridge" are called trolls.

Yooper - resident of the Upper Peninsula (i.e., UP, therefore "yooper") - humor

Funny, eh?

dInIs


>from another list:
>
>---
>____'s elementary school has been on break this week, so she has been
>attending a day program [elsewhere] with some kind of field trip each day.
>
>Yesterday, they went to the Scrap Box, a place where all kinds of scrap
>materials are available for kids to make stuff with.
>
>One of _____'s projects consisted of a six-inch square piece of black
>foam, flat on the table, with many small round objects glued to it, and a
>long black cardboard tube rising from one corner.
>
>It's Michigan Troll, she explained.
>
>I didn't understand.
>
>First, you press this button, then this button, she said.  Then, there's a
>message here from Michigan Troll.  Then, you press this button.  Ten,
>nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one, blastoff!  And this
>part is the spacecraft.
>-----
>
>Bethany


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU  Sat Feb 26 13:48:53 2005
From: dumasb at UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU (Bethany K. Dumas)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:48:53 -0500
Subject: Michigan Troll
In-Reply-To: <a06020401be462d687363@[192.168.1.3]>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.084853.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

It all fits, doesn't it?

Bethany

On Sat, 26 Feb 2005, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

>Bethany,
>
>As any US map will show you, there is an Upper Peninsula and a Lower
>Peninsula which make up the State of MI; many years ago a spectacular
>bridge was built to connect the two. Now those of us who live "below
>the bridge" are called trolls.
>
>Yooper - resident of the Upper Peninsula (i.e., UP, therefore "yooper") - humor
>
>Funny, eh?


From gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG  Sat Feb 26 13:51:08 2005
From: gbarrett at WORLDNEWYORK.ORG (Grant Barrett)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 08:51:08 -0500
Subject: Michigan Troll
In-Reply-To: <a06020401be462d687363@[192.168.1.3]>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.085108.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

For what it's worth, this page of "Michigan slang" came up in my news
alerts yesterday:

http://www.easternecho.com/cgi-bin/story.cgi?4527

Grant Barrett
gbarrett at worldnewyork.org

On Feb 26, 2005, at 08:47, Dennis R. Preston wrote:
> As any US map will show you, there is an Upper Peninsula and a Lower
> Peninsula which make up the State of MI; many years ago a spectacular
> bridge was built to connect the two. Now those of us who live "below
> the bridge" are called trolls.
>
> Yooper - resident of the Upper Peninsula (i.e., UP, therefore
> "yooper") - humor


From fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 26 15:20:16 2005
From: fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU (Fred Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 10:20:16 -0500
Subject: "Seize the Time"
In-Reply-To: <18360.69.142.143.59.1109419373.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.102016.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is anyone able to shed light on the following question by searching
ProQuest Historical Newspapers for me:

I am trying to ascertain whether Bobby Seale's 1968 book _Seize the Time_
originated or popularized that phrase.  I'm not interested in specific
expressions like "he seized the time when no one was looking to put up his
notice," but rather a general expression "seize the time" meaning "take
advantage of a historic moment to launch some bold move."  I realize that
this is not that different from the Latin "carpe diem," but am trying to
figure out whether Seale introduced or popularized a new variation on
"carpe diem."

Fred Shapiro


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred R. Shapiro                             Editor
Associate Librarian for Collections and     YALE DICTIONARY OF QUOTATIONS
  Access and Lecturer in Legal Research     Yale University Press,
Yale Law School                             forthcoming
e-mail: fred.shapiro at yale.edu               http://quotationdictionary.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb 26 16:47:03 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 11:47:03 -0500
Subject: "Seize the Time"
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.114703.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

ProQuest seems to have a gap on "seize the time." There's a hit in 1954, and the next hit is 1970 (Black Panthers).

Barry Popik
(about to explore the La Romana caves in the Dominican Republic)


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Sat Feb 26 17:40:25 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 12:40:25 -0500
Subject: Unuses
In-Reply-To: <006601c51c00$ccd53630$0201a8c0@ufficiobx6kaeg>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.124025.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Thankyou for your extensive response which certainly gives food for thought.
>Can I share it with my students?

sure

>  My edition of the work (Penguin Books,
>publ. 1989) has on page 315 : "In addition, any word -this [..] applied in
>principle to every word in the language - could be negatived by adding the
>affix un-, or could be strengthened by the affix plus-, or, for still
>greater emphasis, doubleplus-." However, the author gives no example, either
>here in the Appendix, or indeed in the story itself, of these affixes on
>verbs.

right, and in general it's not clear what a "negatived" verb amounts
to.  For example, it's part of our knowledge of the language that to
"unlove", as in the country song verse below which also includes the
relatively innovative "undream" and "unfeel", cannot amount simply to
*not-love* (as it would be if it were a stative like "to love"
itself), much less to be in the opposite state, i.e. to *hate*, but
must rather be a verb with internal negation applying to an embedded
state (= 'to come to {not/no longer} love').

=======
Julie Roberts
"Unlove Me" (2004)

Unloose this hold you've got on me
Unlock this heart that can't get free
Unlive the night you kissed and hugged me
Undream the dreams that we both shared
Unfeel the feelin' that you cared
Before you leave me, please unlove me
=========
This impression is supported by other such songs (e.g. Lynn
Anderson's 1971 country classic "How Can I Unlove You?", and by text
citations from Chaucer

        I se that clene out of your mynde
Ye han me cast; and I ne kan nor may,
for al this world, withinne myn herte fynde
To unloven yow a quarter of a day!
                (Troilus and Criseyde, v. 1695-8)

to Bront?'s Jane Eyre, who confides "I have told you...that I had
learned to love Mr. Rochester; I could not unlove him now."

The *noun* _unlove_ on the other hand has a predictably privative (=
'lack of ___') rather than a reversative ('cause to come to no longer
____') meaning, as in e. e. cummings's line'unlove's the heavenless
hell and homeless home/of knowledgeable shadows'.   So the concept of
what it is to "negative" a word is far from transparent.

>As for 'unsee', I remember having to do 'unseens' during my Classics
>studies. These were translations done 'cold', as it were, i.e. never seen
>before the examination itself. My problem :)) was with '[...]site' rather
>than sight, or 'sait'

That seems like a plausible zero-derivation:  to do something sight
unseen--> to do something unseen-->to do an unseen.  Compare "the
blind" in poker, a bet in poker by someone operating "in the blind",
i.e without seeing their hand or seeing it but not taking its content
into account.  (And the bettor in such circumstances is also a (or
the) blind.  The "unsite" does seem weirder.


Larry


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Sat Feb 26 21:51:40 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 16:51:40 -0500
Subject: Mama Juana & Underground Hotel
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.165140.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The La Romana caves were great. The "smiley" clearly goes back at least 500 years.

UNDERGROUND HOTEL--Used by a tour guide of "cemetery." He said he got it from the U.S. I don't know what the HDAS will have.

MAMA JUANA--Not in the OED. OED editors must not have vacationed in the Dominican Republic at all. This and "Larimar" are in every gift shop.

(GOOGLE)
Bejucos Roots from the Dominican Republic - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ]
... tonic of roots, barks, woody vines and leaves called "Mama Juana". ... use is as tincture
made with the local rum. ... is to ferment them in water with sugar or honey. ...
www.natural-safe-hormones.com/our_story.html - 11k - En cach? - P?ginas similares

Rough Guides Travel - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ]
... Mama Juana was quite nice, too? the combination of mysterious tropical roots, bark ...
and potency with each ?rejuvenation? by rum, red wine, and honey. ...
travel.roughguides.com/planning/journalEntryFreeForm. asp?JournalID=38615&EntryID=18898 - 65k - 24 Feb 2005 - En cach? - P?ginas similares

DOMINICAN WOMEN FAQ - Dominican In Love - [ Traduzca esta p?gina ]
... One of my favorite is "Mama Juana" It is a mixture of roots that they put in a bottle
that later you add rum, wine, and honey too, or just make your own drink ...
www.dominicaninlove.com/faq.html - 40k - En cach? - P?ginas similares


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 27 02:12:46 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 21:12:46 -0500
Subject: Mama Juana & Underground Hotel
In-Reply-To: <E1D59ql-0003rm-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.211246.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 26, 2005, at 4:51 PM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Mama Juana & Underground Hotel
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The La Romana caves were great. The "smiley" clearly goes back at
> least 500 years.
>
> UNDERGROUND HOTEL--Used by a tour guide of "cemetery." He said he got
> it from the U.S. I don't know what the HDAS will have.
>
> MAMA JUANA--Not in the OED. OED editors must not have vacationed in
> the Dominican Republic at all. This and "Larimar" are in every gift
> shop.
>
> (GOOGLE)
> Bejucos Roots from the Dominican Republic - [ Traduzca esta p??gina ]
> ... tonic of roots, barks, woody vines and leaves called "Mama Juana".
> ... use is as tincture
> made with the local rum. ... is to ferment them in water with sugar or
> honey. ...
> www.natural-safe-hormones.com/our_story.html - 11k - En cach?? -
> P??ginas similares
>
> Rough Guides Travel - [ Traduzca esta p??gina ]
> ... Mama Juana was quite nice, too??? the combination of mysterious
> tropical roots, bark ...
> and potency with each ???rejuvenation??? by rum, red wine, and honey.
> ...
> travel.roughguides.com/planning/journalEntryFreeForm.
> asp?JournalID=38615&EntryID=18898 - 65k - 24 Feb 2005 - En cach?? -
> P??ginas similares
>
> DOMINICAN WOMEN FAQ - Dominican In Love - [ Traduzca esta p??gina ]
> ... One of my favorite is "Mama Juana" It is a mixture of roots that
> they put in a bottle
> that later you add rum, wine, and honey too, or just make your own
> drink ...
> www.dominicaninlove.com/faq.html - 40k - En cach?? - P??ginas similares
>

".... that later you add rum, wine, and honey _to_." perhaps?

--Wilson Gray


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 27 02:43:31 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 21:43:31 -0500
Subject: obsolescene [was church key]
In-Reply-To: <E1D4rww-00010F-00@mx18.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.214331.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 25, 2005, at 9:44 PM, James C Stalker wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       James C Stalker <stalker at MSU.EDU>
> Subject:      obsolescene [was church key]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>         The ???ice box??? example opens some interesting connections
> among
> language, metaphor, and technology.  When I was young, we had an ice
> box.
> My father would bring home blocks of ice and place them in the
> appropriate
> compartment, and replace the ice as necessary.

In my day, ice was delivered by the ice man, a system well-attested in
various blues songs through the ''50's. There was a sign that was
placed in a front window to let the ice man know how many pounds of ice
were wanted. I learned "figidaire" first. My grandmother in Texas had a
General Electric frigidaire. When we moved to St. Louis, we at first
couldn't afford a frigidaire. So, we got an icebox.

-Wilson Gray

>   When we had an electric
> machine that manufactured its own ice, I, of course, still called it
> an ice
> box.  That???s what it was. How the ice got in it was immaterial.  In
> time
> brand names (Frigidare) or generic labels based on function
> (refrigerator)
> replaced ice box, just because more people used those terms.  The
> original
> named object has been replaced by other versions, and has become a box
> that
> makes ice rather than a box that holds ice, apparently, a significant
> shift.
> The term has, for the most part, disappeared, although, denotatively,
> it
> needn???t have.  It is still an ice box.
>         Church key takes a different course.  Several posters still
> use them, but
> don???t always call them a ???church key.???  I make sure that I have
> one
> around for various reasons.  There are still cans to be opened without
> automatic tops, such as large juice cans, which generally don???t fit
> electric openers, and can be opened with a screw type can opener, but
> that
> is inconvenient. The tool is available in stores, although not always
> readily.  The tool remains, but the name is passing.  The possible
> visual
> physical connection with keys for churches (the e-Bay post) and the
> possible
> metaphoric oxymoron are passing, but the tool lives on.
>         Both terms seem to be disappearing, but for quite different
> reasons.
>
> Jim Stalker
>
> James C. Stalker
> Department of English
> Michigan State University
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 27 03:29:49 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 22:29:49 -0500
Subject: Teen lingo site posted by Patti Kurz
Message-ID: <SAT.26.FEB.2005.222949.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

This lexicon cites all BE terms ending in -ool as ending in -oo, e.g.
"cool" is spelled "coo." As I mentioned in an earlier post, I had a
problem teaching a white fellow-GI how to pronounce the blackenized
(IIRC, this word appears in "The Nigger Bible"; IAC, it's not original
with me) version of "cool." He kept hearing it and pronouncing it as
"coo." This was in 1961. So, clearly, nothing has changed.

On the other side of the coin, a white colleague had to pull my coat to
the proper pronunciation of "Motrin." I hadn't yet seen this name
spelled out and I heard and reproduced its pronunciation as
"mole-trin."

-Wilson Gray


From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Feb 27 04:39:02 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 05:39:02 +0100
Subject: newspaper article on "y'all"
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.053902.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The sprawl of y'all
AZ Central.com, AZ - Feb 25, 2005
http://www.azcentral.com/ent/pop/articles/0225yall25.html

Paul
__________________________
Paul Frank
Chinese-English translator
Huemoz, Vaud, Switzerland
phone +41 (0)24 495 2493
paulfrank at post.harvard.edu


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Sun Feb 27 05:28:44 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 00:28:44 -0500
Subject: newspaper article on "y'all"
In-Reply-To: <E1D5GMb-0006n4-00@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.002844.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

FWIW, back in the '50's or '60's, a white member of the  FDNY wrote a
book about the life of white firemen in a minority - in this case,
Puerto-Rican - neighborhood. In the book, the author wondered why it
was that Puerto-Ricans preferred to model their English on the dialect
of blacks instead of on the dialect of whites. IOW, the use of
Black-colored <har! har!> English by Newyoricans has been a well-known
fact, even to non-linguists, for at least 40 years. That being the
case, the use of Black-English - *not* Southern-English - "y'all" by a
Newyorican is indicative of nothing.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 26, 2005, at 11:39 PM, Paul Frank wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Paul Frank <paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU>
> Subject:      newspaper article on "y'all"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The sprawl of y'all
> AZ Central.com, AZ - Feb 25, 2005
> http://www.azcentral.com/ent/pop/articles/0225yall25.html
>
> Paul
> __________________________
> Paul Frank
> Chinese-English translator
> Huemoz, Vaud, Switzerland
> phone +41 (0)24 495 2493
> paulfrank at post.harvard.edu
>


From bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU  Sun Feb 27 07:50:14 2005
From: bgzimmer at RCI.RUTGERS.EDU (Benjamin Zimmer)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 02:50:14 -0500
Subject: "You're not the boss of me" (1953)
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.025014.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

There's an alt.usage.english discussion going on about the expression
"You're not the boss of me," popularized since 2000 by the theme song to
the show _Malcolm in the Middle_, performed by They Might Be Giants.
Usenet and Nexis take it back to 1993, but Proquest does better by another
40 years:

-----
"Child Behavior: Better to Ward Off That Crisis. The Gesell Institute."
_Washington Post_, Jul 1, 1953, p. 30, col. 6
Put off that visit to grandma, or hers to you, till the peak of this
"Try and make me -- you're not the boss of me" stage is past.
-----

Newspaperarchive shows the similar expression "I'm the boss of me" in use
since 1967:

-----
"Why Behave?" _Lima News_ (Ohio), Nov. 8, 1967, p. 35, col. 1
"I'm the boss of me." Wherever they pick it up, youngsters from tots to
teens make the statement importantly and cling to it.
Upon its earliest utterance, watchful, loving non-permissive parents
will reply that that's the way it should be - as long as the child is a
good boss of him.  If he is not, then someone else has to take over.
-----


--Ben Zimmer


From jester at PANIX.COM  Sun Feb 27 13:22:28 2005
From: jester at PANIX.COM (Jesse Sheidlower)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 08:22:28 -0500
Subject: "You're not the boss of me" (1953)
In-Reply-To: <2525.69.142.143.59.1109490614.squirrel@webmail.rci.rutgers.edu>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.082228.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 02:50:14AM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
> There's an alt.usage.english discussion going on about the expression
> "You're not the boss of me," popularized since 2000 by the theme song to
> the show _Malcolm in the Middle_, performed by They Might Be Giants.
> Usenet and Nexis take it back to 1993, but Proquest does better by another
> 40 years:

Great cite.

I think the original controversy about the dating of this expression
arose after Monica Lewinsky claimed that it was one of her first
phrases, that she would say it to her mother with her hands on her
hips when she was two years old. There was disbelief about this
claim, but now it is lent a little more credence.

Jesse Sheidlower
OED


From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Sun Feb 27 16:21:29 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:21:29 +0100
Subject: Wisconsin-speak
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.172129.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Newspaper article about Wisconsin- speak:

http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/local/index.php?ntid=30138&ntpid=4

Paul
________________________
Paul Frank
Chinese-English translator
paulfrank at post.harvard.edu


From faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU  Sun Feb 27 16:54:21 2005
From: faber at HASKINS.YALE.EDU (Alice Faber)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:54:21 -0500
Subject: "You're not the boss of me" (1953)
In-Reply-To: <20050227132228.GA9313@panix.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.115421.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 02:50:14AM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>
>>There's an alt.usage.english discussion going on about the expression
>>"You're not the boss of me," popularized since 2000 by the theme song to
>>the show _Malcolm in the Middle_, performed by They Might Be Giants.
>>Usenet and Nexis take it back to 1993, but Proquest does better by another
>>40 years:
>
>
> Great cite.
>
> I think the original controversy about the dating of this expression
> arose after Monica Lewinsky claimed that it was one of her first
> phrases, that she would say it to her mother with her hands on her
> hips when she was two years old. There was disbelief about this
> claim, but now it is lent a little more credence.

I don't recall that particular controversy. However, I'm considerably
older than ML, and I do recall "you're not the boss of me" being a
staple part of sibling arguments (right up there with "are too"--"am
not!") in the late 50s/early 60s.

--

Alice Faber


From sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM  Sun Feb 27 17:02:33 2005
From: sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM (sagehen)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:02:33 -0500
Subject: obsolescene [was church key]
In-Reply-To: <18ea16d569f7184d9a50210cc171859a@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.120233.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>In my day, ice was delivered by the ice man, a system well-attested in
>various blues songs through the ''50's. There was a sign that was
>placed in a front window to let the ice man know how many pounds of ice
>were wanted. I learned "figidaire" first. My grandmother in Texas had a
>General Electric frigidaire. When we moved to St. Louis, we at first
>couldn't afford a frigidaire. So, we got an icebox.
>
>-Wilson Gray
> ~~~~~~~~~~
We, too, had an icebox, which was retired to the back porch and used as a
cupboard when we got a monitor-top GE refrigerator.  I still hear myself
saying "icebox" instead of "fridge," at times.  "Frigidaire" wasn't the the
GE brand...might have been Westinghouse's (or poss. GM's?).
The iceman continued to visit our street through most of the '30s.  The
sign the householder put in the front window had the amounts wanted printed
in different orientations; it was turned so that the one wanted was at the
top.
A. Murie


From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM  Sun Feb 27 21:32:05 2005
From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:32:05 -0500
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.163205.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Hey Y'all

Irish lingo has been nominated for an Oscar in Million Dollar Baby along
with the phrase mo chuisle (macushla).

best,
karen ellis


February 26, 2005
OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
Fighting Words
By WES DAVIS

BEFORE the bell has sounded at the start of her first title fight in Clint
Eastwood's Oscar-nominated film "Million Dollar Baby," the scrappy,
big-hearted boxer Maggie Fitzgerald, played by Hilary Swank, finds herself
cheered into the ring by shouts of "Mo Cuishle," the Irish Gaelic moniker
she's been given by her manager, Frankie Dunn, played by Mr. Eastwood.

The name is a shortened form of the phrase "A chuisle mo chro?," "O, pulse
of my heart," or as Frankie will put it more concisely, "My darling." But
Ms. Swank's character doesn't know that yet and neither do we. All we know
is that the words emblazoned - and some argue misspelled - on the back of
her robe are important to a lot of people.

Apparently they still are. After seeing the movie, I overheard whispered
conversations about "Mo Cuishle." A few of the movie goers confessed that
they hadn't even known there was an Irish language apart from English, but
they were captivated by the sound of it. In the last few weeks some queries
about the phrase have arisen on the Internet, and students of the language
are coming out of the woodwork. Around Valentine's Day, in particular, many
Web surfers were frantic to learn how to address their darlings in Irish.

That sort of popular reaction makes sense. In the shorthand of the film, the
Irish, scattered by hardship in their home country but strangely united by
the trials that threw them apart, stand for a culture of underdogs, and the
language that was once the common idiom in Ireland becomes the watchword of
the movie's romantic idea of the hero.

As Maggie's boxing career builds to its climax, Mr. Eastwood hinges the
movie's emotional peaks on the longing held in the Irish language. The most
moving of these moments occurs when Mr. Eastwood's character finally reveals
the meaning of "Mo Cuishle," and when he translates W. B. Yeats's "Lake Isle
of Innisfree" from the little Irish-language book he carries like a talisman
throughout the movie.

An achingly beautiful poem, "Lake Isle" expresses a yearning for escape that
fits perfectly with the movie's hope that it may be possible to build a new
life. For Yeats, the fantasy retreat is a rustic cabin in a "bee-loud
glade." In the movie, it's the "little place in the cedars, somewhere
between nowhere and goodbye," imagined by the character played by Morgan
Freeman.

Yeats's poem also reflects on the more rugged emotional landscape the film
exposes. In "Lake Isle," as in "Million Dollar Baby," the dream of escape
finally slams against the hard facts of real life. The dream can survive, as
Yeats puts it, only "in the deep heart's core." In the movie, the dream is
mined by Mr. Eastwood's character when he labors to translate the poem from
the Gaelic for Maggie. It feels as if he's extracting a gift of hope for her
out of the bedrock of Ireland's nearly forgotten language.

There's just one hitch: Yeats didn't write his poems in Irish. He didn't
even know the language well enough to read it.

On the whole, Yeats was less than rigorous in the way he represented his own
linguistic abilities. He was never fluent in French, for example, but he
talked breezily about the latest French book once his friends had read it to
him. Having once made a stab at memorizing the Hebrew alphabet, he would
later lament having forgotten his Hebrew. But about Irish he was completely
clear. He tried to learn it, and he failed.

The language issue was a vexed one for Yeats. Like many of his countrymen,
he was at times drawn to the image of Ireland as a nation speaking its own
language. He actively promoted dramatic performances in Irish.

But he knew that much of Ireland's literary life, and even more of its
practical business, had been carried on in English for over a century. When
Yeats was serving in the Senate of the newly independent Irish Free State in
1923, he spoke against a proposal that the prayer at the start of every
session be delivered in Irish as well as English. He protested that the
Irish prayer was "a childish performance," since, like him, most of the
senators didn't know the language and were unlikely to learn it.

Later, when the Senate was considering a proposal to add Irish to the
country's traffic signs and railway notices, he argued against it on similar
grounds, fearing that forcing the language on people at a moment when they
just wanted information would hurt the efforts of groups like the Gaelic
League to preserve Irish and spread its use. In the same session, though, he
called for government support of scholarship on Irish language and literature.

Strange as the idea would have seemed to him, Yeats almost certainly would
have supported the translation of his own poems into Irish. Such
translations do now exist, so it's not impossible to imagine Mr. Eastwood's
character wrestling an Irish translation back into the original English.

But all of this is ultimately less important to the film than the effect
"Million Dollar Baby" achieves with its use of Irish. From a cinematic point
of view, Mr. Eastwood couldn't have done better than to adopt the endangered
language of a culture whose history has been as dramatic as that of his
characters. And the wonderful twist of the film's pretense of translating
"The Lake Isle of Innisfree" from the Irish is that it seems to have done
just what the Gaelic League and all those Senate proposals, and even the
contrary Yeats, ultimately wanted. It has stirred up interest in the
language itself.

Wes Davis, an assistant professor of English at Yale, is editing "The Yale
Anthology of Contemporary Irish Poetry."




<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
The Educational CyberPlayGround
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/

National Children's Folksong Repository
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/

Hot List of Schools Online and
Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/

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USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty
<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 27 22:16:17 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:16:17 -0800
Subject: obsolescene [was church key]
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.141617.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I've never lived with an actual "icebox," but that's what I grew up calling a refrigerator, and I still do it at unguarded moments.

JL

sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: sagehen
Subject: Re: obsolescene [was church key]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>In my day, ice was delivered by the ice man, a system well-attested in
>various blues songs through the ''50's. There was a sign that was
>placed in a front window to let the ice man know how many pounds of ice
>were wanted. I learned "figidaire" first. My grandmother in Texas had a
>General Electric frigidaire. When we moved to St. Louis, we at first
>couldn't afford a frigidaire. So, we got an icebox.
>
>-Wilson Gray
> ~~~~~~~~~~
We, too, had an icebox, which was retired to the back porch and used as a
cupboard when we got a monitor-top GE refrigerator. I still hear myself
saying "icebox" instead of "fridge," at times. "Frigidaire" wasn't the the
GE brand...might have been Westinghouse's (or poss. GM's?).
The iceman continued to visit our street through most of the '30s. The
sign the householder put in the front window had the amounts wanted printed
in different orientations; it was turned so that the one wanted was at the
top.
A. Murie

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Sun Feb 27 22:47:35 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 14:47:35 -0800
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.144735.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

You can start diggin'  the rockin' sheet music to "Macushla," by Jospehine V. Rowe & Dermot MacMurrough (1910) right here :

http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl?record=153.109a.000&pages=5

Or if lyrics alone are your bag, check it :

Macushla! Macushla! your sweet voice is calling,
Calling me softly again and again;
Macushla! Macushla! I hear its dear pleading,
My blue eyed Macushla, I hear it in vain!

Macushla! Macushla! your white arms are reaching,
I feel them enfolding, caressing me still!
Fling them out from the darkness, my lost love Macushla!
Let them find me, and bind me again if they will!

Macushla! Macushla! your red lips are saying,
That death is a dream and love is for aye;
Then awaken Macushla! Awake from your dreaming!                                                             My blue eyed Macushla! awaken to stay!

(Unlikely to have been on Yeats's hit parade.)


JL

Educational CyberPlayGround <admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Y'all

Irish lingo has been nominated for an Oscar in Million Dollar Baby along
with the phrase mo chuisle (macushla).

best,
karen ellis


February 26, 2005
OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
Fighting Words
By WES DAVIS

BEFORE the bell has sounded at the start of her first title fight in Clint
Eastwood's Oscar-nominated film "Million Dollar Baby," the scrappy,
big-hearted boxer Maggie Fitzgerald, played by Hilary Swank, finds herself
cheered into the ring by shouts of "Mo Cuishle," the Irish Gaelic moniker
she's been given by her manager, Frankie Dunn, played by Mr. Eastwood.

The name is a shortened form of the phrase "A chuisle mo chro?," "O, pulse
of my heart," or as Frankie will put it more concisely, "My darling." But
Ms. Swank's character doesn't know that yet and neither do we. All we know
is that the words emblazoned - and some argue misspelled - on the back of
her robe are important to a lot of people.

Apparently they still are. After seeing the movie, I overheard whispered
conversations about "Mo Cuishle." A few of the movie goers confessed that
they hadn't even known there was an Irish language apart from English, but
they were captivated by the sound of it. In the last few weeks some queries
about the phrase have arisen on the Internet, and students of the language
are coming out of the woodwork. Around Valentine's Day, in particular, many
Web surfers were frantic to learn how to address their darlings in Irish.

That sort of popular reaction makes sense. In the shorthand of the film, the
Irish, scattered by hardship in their home country but strangely united by
the trials that threw them apart, stand for a culture of underdogs, and the
language that was once the common idiom in Ireland becomes the watchword of
the movie's romantic idea of the hero.

As Maggie's boxing career builds to its climax, Mr. Eastwood hinges the
movie's emotional peaks on the longing held in the Irish language. The most
moving of these moments occurs when Mr. Eastwood's character finally reveals
the meaning of "Mo Cuishle," and when he translates W. B. Yeats's "Lake Isle
of Innisfree" from the little Irish-language book he carries like a talisman
throughout the movie.

An achingly beautiful poem, "Lake Isle" expresses a yearning for escape that
fits perfectly with the movie's hope that it may be possible to build a new
life. For Yeats, the fantasy retreat is a rustic cabin in a "bee-loud
glade." In the movie, it's the "little place in the cedars, somewhere
between nowhere and goodbye," imagined by the character played by Morgan
Freeman.

Yeats's poem also reflects on the more rugged emotional landscape the film
exposes. In "Lake Isle," as in "Million Dollar Baby," the dream of escape
finally slams against the hard facts of real life. The dream can survive, as
Yeats puts it, only "in the deep heart's core." In the movie, the dream is
mined by Mr. Eastwood's character when he labors to translate the poem from
the Gaelic for Maggie. It feels as if he's extracting a gift of hope for her
out of the bedrock of Ireland's nearly forgotten language.

There's just one hitch: Yeats didn't write his poems in Irish. He didn't
even know the language well enough to read it.

On the whole, Yeats was less than rigorous in the way he represented his own
linguistic abilities. He was never fluent in French, for example, but he
talked breezily about the latest French book once his friends had read it to
him. Having once made a stab at memorizing the Hebrew alphabet, he would
later lament having forgotten his Hebrew. But about Irish he was completely
clear. He tried to learn it, and he failed.

The language issue was a vexed one for Yeats. Like many of his countrymen,
he was at times drawn to the image of Ireland as a nation speaking its own
language. He actively promoted dramatic performances in Irish.

But he knew that much of Ireland's literary life, and even more of its
practical business, had been carried on in English for over a century. When
Yeats was serving in the Senate of the newly independent Irish Free State in
1923, he spoke against a proposal that the prayer at the start of every
session be delivered in Irish as well as English. He protested that the
Irish prayer was "a childish performance," since, like him, most of the
senators didn't know the language and were unlikely to learn it.

Later, when the Senate was considering a proposal to add Irish to the
country's traffic signs and railway notices, he argued against it on similar
grounds, fearing that forcing the language on people at a moment when they
just wanted information would hurt the efforts of groups like the Gaelic
League to preserve Irish and spread its use. In the same session, though, he
called for government support of scholarship on Irish language and literature.

Strange as the idea would have seemed to him, Yeats almost certainly would
have supported the translation of his own poems into Irish. Such
translations do now exist, so it's not impossible to imagine Mr. Eastwood's
character wrestling an Irish translation back into the original English.

But all of this is ultimately less important to the film than the effect
"Million Dollar Baby" achieves with its use of Irish. From a cinematic point
of view, Mr. Eastwood couldn't have done better than to adopt the endangered
language of a culture whose history has been as dramatic as that of his
characters. And the wonderful twist of the film's pretense of translating
"The Lake Isle of Innisfree" from the Irish is that it seems to have done
just what the Gaelic League and all those Senate proposals, and even the
contrary Yeats, ultimately wanted. It has stirred up interest in the
language itself.

Wes Davis, an assistant professor of English at Yale, is editing "The Yale
Anthology of Contemporary Irish Poetry."




<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
The Educational CyberPlayGround
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/

National Children's Folksong Repository
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/

Hot List of Schools Online and
Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/

7 Hot Site Awards
New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink,
USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty
<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>




---------------------------------
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 Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.


From zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU  Mon Feb 28 04:29:35 2005
From: zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU (Arnold M. Zwicky)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 20:29:35 -0800
Subject: a bunch of the boys ?was/?were...
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.202935.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I was struck by the following sentence in a review (NYT Book Review,
2/27/05, p. 17) of JT LeRoy's "Harold's End" by Albert Mobilio, who
edits the fiction section of Bookforum:
-----
"Harold's End" is set in the parks and alleys of San Francisco, where a
group of teenage hustlers takes drugs and turns tricks.
-----

I would have gone for "take" and "turn" myself, but it's an arguable
point.

Ncollective + [ of + NPpl ] is taken up by MWDEU under the heading
"agreement, subject-verb: a bunch of the boys" (as in the immortal line
"A bunch of the boys were whooping it up in the Malamute saloon").  Its
advice is that when the sense is plural, as it usually is, the verb
should be too, though some grammatical sticklers insist that the PP is
just a partitive (as in "a vase of flowers") so the agreement should be
singular.

Now, there are some collective Ns that have been completely
grammaticalized as determiners and so are transparent to the number and
count/mass classification of the head N: a lot of shrubbery has thorns,
a lot of shrubs have/*has thorns.  For me, there are a few collective
Ns that are invariably heads: The committee/team was/*were working on
reports.  For me, the subject-verb agreement remains singular even when
a plural anaphoric pronoun is called for; The committee/team was/*were
working on their/??its individual reports.  (Others, especially British
speakers, have other judgments here.  CGEL, section 18.2 of chapter 5,
has an extensive discussion of the collective facts, taking "committee"
as the paradigm example of a noun allowing either agreement.)

In any case, for me, most other collective Ns permit either agreement,
though they strongly trigger plural agreement when the sense is plural,
as it is with taking drugs and turning tricks.

MWDEU displays several examples of the Mobilio sort, which it suggests
"may be the result of nervous copy editors or indecision on the part of
the writers".  Ah, the perils of instruction.

arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 04:39:29 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 23:39:29 -0500
Subject: obsolescene [was church key]
In-Reply-To: <E1D5RmY-0007FA-00@mx04.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <SUN.27.FEB.2005.233929.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 27, 2005, at 12:02 PM, sagehen wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
> Subject:      Re: obsolescene [was church key]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> In my day, ice was delivered by the ice man, a system well-attested in
>> various blues songs through the ''50's. There was a sign that was
>> placed in a front window to let the ice man know how many pounds of
>> ice
>> were wanted. I learned "figidaire" first. My grandmother in Texas had
>> a
>> General Electric frigidaire. When we moved to St. Louis, we at first
>> couldn't afford a frigidaire. So, we got an icebox.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>> ~~~~~~~~~~
> We, too, had an icebox, which was retired to the back porch and used
> as a
> cupboard when we got a monitor-top GE refrigerator.  I still hear
> myself
> saying "icebox" instead of "fridge," at times.  "Frigidaire" wasn't
> the the
> GE brand...might have been Westinghouse's (or poss. GM's?).
> The iceman continued to visit our street through most of the '30s.  The
> sign the householder put in the front window had the amounts wanted
> printed
> in different orientations; it was turned so that the one wanted was at
> the
> top.
> A. Murie
>

I remember the "need ice" sign as being exactly as you describe it. I
recall that the brand name of the icebox was "Coolerator." Frigidaires
were originally manufactured by GM. I googled it. Coolerator made
electric fridges, too. But, when we upgraded to electric, we got a
Kelvinator. For a while, we borrowed a gas-powered Servel from my
mother's sister. Remember those? How about the Crosley Shelvador?

-Wilson Gray


From Bapopik at AOL.COM  Mon Feb 28 05:24:57 2005
From: Bapopik at AOL.COM (Bapopik at AOL.COM)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 00:24:57 EST
Subject: Bachata (Dominican dance); Vitamin R (rum)
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.002457.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Greetings from New York City. I rushed back to witness Monday's  
storm..."Mama juana" is also "mamajuana," of course. "To/too" was copied and not  typed by 
me.
...
OT: My autistic nephew received a stem cell shot down there. It appears to  
have been worthless. Autism is on the cover of Newsweek and was on the front  
page of Saturday's New York Times.
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
VITAMIN R
...
I posted that "rum" was "Vitamin A." It's also "Vitamin R," according to  
another tour guide.
...
...
(GOOGLE)
...
_Sunworld Holidays - Irish Tour Operator providing holidays online  ..._ 
(http://www.sunworld.ie/destinations/dominican_republic.htm) 
... English is spoken in most  tourist areas. Currency: Dominican Peso. ... 
Drink:
The most  popular drink is 'Vitamin R' - rum to the visitor.  ... 
www.sunworld.ie/destinations/dominican_republic.htm - 28k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:bYn2GvH5u4cJ:www.sunworld.ie/destinations/dominic
an_republic.htm+"vitamin+r"+rum+dominican&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8)  - 
_Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.sunworld.ie/destinations/dominican_republic.htm)  
...
_One Click From Sanity: January 2004 Archives_ 
(http://www.worldwidesam.net/oneclickfromsanity/archives/2004_01.html) 
... for the delay in my continuing story of the Dominican  Republic. ... 
That's how the tour
guide, Osvaldo, pronounced  Vitamin R, and he was referring to rum. ...  
www.worldwidesam.net/  oneclickfromsanity/archives/2004_01.html - 77k - 
_Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:yNb2VoPZbSsJ:www.worldwidesam.net/oneclickfromsanity/archives/2004_01.html+"vitamin+r"+rum+dominican&hl=en&lr=lang_
en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.worldwidesam.net/oneclickfromsanity/archives/2004_01.h
tml)  
...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
BACHATA
...
OED has no entry for "bachata" and only one citation. Along with meringue  
and salsa, "bachata" is a national dance in the Dominican Republic. It's gotta  
be in the dictionary.
...
...
(OED)
    2.  fig. Vigorous, powerful; very intense; cf. _OCTANE_ 
(http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?query_type=fulltext&queryword=bachata&first=1&max_to_sho
w=10&search_spec=fulltext&sort_type=alpha&search_id=zTNu-IrkJQS-9628&control_n
o=00335164&result_place=1&xrefword=octane&ps=n.)  n. 3. 

1944 N.Y.  Times 19 Mar. II. 3/6  High octane ballyhoo..has..smartly reversed 
the usual procedure  of opus first and publicity, advertising and 
exploitation afterward. 1974 _E.  BOWEN_ 
(http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-b3.html#e-bowen)  Henry & Other Heroes iv. 77 Mother and Uncle Harry, whose bodies 
and brains happened to be  huge, paired engines that ran on high-octane 
ambition. 1995 Wire Jan. 57/2 His high-octane  Latino product decants ska, salsa, 
hi-life, mambo and just about anything and  everything else South American into a 
peculiarly Dominican form of merengue  called bachata.
...
...
...
(GOOGLE)
...
_Merengue &  Bachata from the Dominican Republic_ 
(http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/)  - [ _Translate this page_ 
(http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/&prev=/search?q=bachata&hl=en&lr=&i
e=UTF-8)  ] 
    Music from and information about the Dominican  Republic, Merengue, 
Bachata and Perico Ripiao, a lot of music  examples and pictures of the country. 
... 
home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/ - 12k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:wCArm0E9W3EJ:home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/+bachata&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - 
_Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/) 
...
_History of bachata_ 
(http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/historias/history_bachata.html)      Music and information from the Dominican  Republic, Merengue, 
Bachata and Perico Ripiao, a lot of examples of  the music and pictures of the 
country. ... 
home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/  historias/history_bachata.html - 15k - _Cached_ 
(http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:EBFlXrAMg5UJ:home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/his
torias/history_bachata.html+bachata&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)  - _Similar pages_ 
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=related:home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/
historias/history_bachata.html) 

... 
...
_http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/historias/history_bachata.html_ (http://hom
e-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/historias/history_bachata.html) 
 
This text was taken from the book "Bachata, A social history of a Dominican  
popular music", published by Temple University Press in 1995, written by 
Deborah  Pacini Hernandez.
Defining Bachata
The music that today is  called bachata emerged from and belongs to a 
long-standin Pan-Latin American  tradition of guitar music, m?sica de guitarra, which 
was typically played  by trios or quartets comprised of one or two guitars 
(or other related stringed  instrument such as the smaller requito), with 
percussion provided by  maracas and/or other instruments such as claves (hardwood 
sticks used for  percussion), bongo drums, or a gourd g?iro scraper. Sometimes a 
large thumb bass  called marimba or marimbula was included as well. When 
bachata emerged in the  early 1960s, it was part of an important subcategory of 
guitar music, romantic  guitar music -as distinguished from guitar music 
intended primarily for dancing  such as th Cuban son or guaracha- although in later 
decades, as  musicians began speeding up the rhythm and dancers developed a new 
dance step,  bachata began to be considered dance music as well. The most 
popular and  widespread genre of romantic guitar music in this century, and the 
most  influential for the development of bachata, was the Cuban bolero (not to 
be  confused with the unrelated Spanish bolero). Bachata musicians, however, 
also  drew upon other genres of m?sica de guitarra that accomplished guitarists 
would  be familiar with, including Mexican rancheros and corridos, Cuban  
son, guaracha and guajira, Puerto Rican plena and  jibaro music, and the 
Colombian-Ecuadorian vals campesino and  pasillo- as well as the Dominican merengue, 
which was originally  guitar-based.
Before the development of a Dominican  redording industry and the spread of 
the mass media, guitar-based trios and  quartets were almost indispensable for 
a variety of informal recreational events  such as Sunday afternoon parties 
known as pasad?as and spontaneous  gatherings that took place in back yards, 
living rooms, or in the street that  were known as bachatas. Dictionaries of 
Latin American Spanish define the  term bachata as juerga, jolgorio, or parranda, 
all of which  denote fun, merriment, a good time, or a spree, but in the 
Dominican Republic,  in addition to the emotional quality of fun and enjoyment 
suggested by the  dictionary definition, it referred specifically to get-togethers 
that included  music, drink, and food. The musicians who played at bachatas 
were usually local,  friends an neighbors of the host, although sometimes 
reputed musicians from  farther away might be brought in for a special occacion. 
Musicians were normally  recompensed only with food and drink, but a little 
money might be given as well.  Parties were usually held on Saturday night and 
would go on until dawn, at which  time a traditional soup, the sancocho, was 
served to the remaining  guests. Because the music played at htese gatherings was 
so often played on  guitars (although accordio-based ensembles were also 
common), the guitar-based  music recorded in the 1960s and 1970s by musicians of 
rural origins came to be  known as bachata.
The word bachata also had  certain associations, upper-class parties would 
never be called bachatas. In his  book Al amor del boh?o (1927), Ram?n Emilio 
Jim?nez, a distinguished  Dominican "man of leters" and "writer of manners," 
described a bachata in terms  that reflect how such gatherings were associated by 
the elite with low-class  debauchery and dissipation:

The "bachata" is a center of attraction for  all the men, where the social 
classes ao those who attend them are leveled and  where the coarsest and 
libertarian forms of democracy predominate. The most  elegant figures of the barrio 
are there, daring and audacious. The setting of  these dissolute pleasures is a 
small living room impregnated by odors that seem  conjured to challenge 
decency....In an adjoining room a guitarist plucks and  unleashes into the 
contaminated air of the house (a) blazing street-level  couplet, to which a singer 
with a well-established reputation as a "second"  makes a duo, provisioned with a 
pair of spoons which he strikes to accompany the  melody.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 06:12:01 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:12:01 -0500
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <E1D5XCM-0002Ok-00@mx17.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.011201.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I remember "Macushla" as one of several Irish-themed popular songs of
my childhood. I had no idea that it was so old. Some others are:

Casey Lowered The Boom
Christmas In Killarney
Mother Macree, i.e. Mathair Mo Chroi "Mother, My Heart"
Derry Air (= Danny Boy)
Harrington

and a couple of others that I remember only a few words of, e.g.
"....The drums go banging / The cymbals clanging / The horns they blaze
away...."

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 27, 2005, at 5:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> You can start diggin'  the rockin' sheet music to "Macushla," by
> Jospehine V. Rowe & Dermot MacMurrough (1910) right here :
>
> http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl?
> record=153.109a.000&pages=5
>
> Or if lyrics alone are your bag, check it :
>
> Macushla! Macushla! your sweet voice is calling,
> Calling me softly again and again;
> Macushla! Macushla! I hear its dear pleading,
> My blue eyed Macushla, I hear it in vain!
>
> Macushla! Macushla! your white arms are reaching,
> I feel them enfolding, caressing me still!
> Fling them out from the darkness, my lost love Macushla!
> Let them find me, and bind me again if they will!
>
> Macushla! Macushla! your red lips are saying,
> That death is a dream and love is for aye;
> Then awaken Macushla! Awake from your dreaming!
>                                      My blue eyed Macushla! awaken to
> stay!
>
> (Unlikely to have been on Yeats's hit parade.)
>
>
> JL
>
> Educational CyberPlayGround <admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround
> Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Hey Y'all
>
> Irish lingo has been nominated for an Oscar in Million Dollar Baby
> along
> with the phrase mo chuisle (macushla).
>
> best,
> karen ellis
>
>
> February 26, 2005
> OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
> Fighting Words
> By WES DAVIS
>
> BEFORE the bell has sounded at the start of her first title fight in
> Clint
> Eastwood's Oscar-nominated film "Million Dollar Baby," the scrappy,
> big-hearted boxer Maggie Fitzgerald, played by Hilary Swank, finds
> herself
> cheered into the ring by shouts of "Mo Cuishle," the Irish Gaelic
> moniker
> she's been given by her manager, Frankie Dunn, played by Mr. Eastwood.
>
> The name is a shortened form of the phrase "A chuisle mo chro?," "O,
> pulse
> of my heart," or as Frankie will put it more concisely, "My darling."
> But
> Ms. Swank's character doesn't know that yet and neither do we. All we
> know
> is that the words emblazoned - and some argue misspelled - on the back
> of
> her robe are important to a lot of people.
>
> Apparently they still are. After seeing the movie, I overheard
> whispered
> conversations about "Mo Cuishle." A few of the movie goers confessed
> that
> they hadn't even known there was an Irish language apart from English,
> but
> they were captivated by the sound of it. In the last few weeks some
> queries
> about the phrase have arisen on the Internet, and students of the
> language
> are coming out of the woodwork. Around Valentine's Day, in particular,
> many
> Web surfers were frantic to learn how to address their darlings in
> Irish.
>
> That sort of popular reaction makes sense. In the shorthand of the
> film, the
> Irish, scattered by hardship in their home country but strangely
> united by
> the trials that threw them apart, stand for a culture of underdogs,
> and the
> language that was once the common idiom in Ireland becomes the
> watchword of
> the movie's romantic idea of the hero.
>
> As Maggie's boxing career builds to its climax, Mr. Eastwood hinges the
> movie's emotional peaks on the longing held in the Irish language. The
> most
> moving of these moments occurs when Mr. Eastwood's character finally
> reveals
> the meaning of "Mo Cuishle," and when he translates W. B. Yeats's
> "Lake Isle
> of Innisfree" from the little Irish-language book he carries like a
> talisman
> throughout the movie.
>
> An achingly beautiful poem, "Lake Isle" expresses a yearning for
> escape that
> fits perfectly with the movie's hope that it may be possible to build
> a new
> life. For Yeats, the fantasy retreat is a rustic cabin in a "bee-loud
> glade." In the movie, it's the "little place in the cedars, somewhere
> between nowhere and goodbye," imagined by the character played by
> Morgan
> Freeman.
>
> Yeats's poem also reflects on the more rugged emotional landscape the
> film
> exposes. In "Lake Isle," as in "Million Dollar Baby," the dream of
> escape
> finally slams against the hard facts of real life. The dream can
> survive, as
> Yeats puts it, only "in the deep heart's core." In the movie, the
> dream is
> mined by Mr. Eastwood's character when he labors to translate the poem
> from
> the Gaelic for Maggie. It feels as if he's extracting a gift of hope
> for her
> out of the bedrock of Ireland's nearly forgotten language.
>
> There's just one hitch: Yeats didn't write his poems in Irish. He
> didn't
> even know the language well enough to read it.
>
> On the whole, Yeats was less than rigorous in the way he represented
> his own
> linguistic abilities. He was never fluent in French, for example, but
> he
> talked breezily about the latest French book once his friends had read
> it to
> him. Having once made a stab at memorizing the Hebrew alphabet, he
> would
> later lament having forgotten his Hebrew. But about Irish he was
> completely
> clear. He tried to learn it, and he failed.
>
> The language issue was a vexed one for Yeats. Like many of his
> countrymen,
> he was at times drawn to the image of Ireland as a nation speaking its
> own
> language. He actively promoted dramatic performances in Irish.
>
> But he knew that much of Ireland's literary life, and even more of its
> practical business, had been carried on in English for over a century.
> When
> Yeats was serving in the Senate of the newly independent Irish Free
> State in
> 1923, he spoke against a proposal that the prayer at the start of every
> session be delivered in Irish as well as English. He protested that the
> Irish prayer was "a childish performance," since, like him, most of the
> senators didn't know the language and were unlikely to learn it.
>
> Later, when the Senate was considering a proposal to add Irish to the
> country's traffic signs and railway notices, he argued against it on
> similar
> grounds, fearing that forcing the language on people at a moment when
> they
> just wanted information would hurt the efforts of groups like the
> Gaelic
> League to preserve Irish and spread its use. In the same session,
> though, he
> called for government support of scholarship on Irish language and
> literature.
>
> Strange as the idea would have seemed to him, Yeats almost certainly
> would
> have supported the translation of his own poems into Irish. Such
> translations do now exist, so it's not impossible to imagine Mr.
> Eastwood's
> character wrestling an Irish translation back into the original
> English.
>
> But all of this is ultimately less important to the film than the
> effect
> "Million Dollar Baby" achieves with its use of Irish. From a cinematic
> point
> of view, Mr. Eastwood couldn't have done better than to adopt the
> endangered
> language of a culture whose history has been as dramatic as that of his
> characters. And the wonderful twist of the film's pretense of
> translating
> "The Lake Isle of Innisfree" from the Irish is that it seems to have
> done
> just what the Gaelic League and all those Senate proposals, and even
> the
> contrary Yeats, ultimately wanted. It has stirred up interest in the
> language itself.
>
> Wes Davis, an assistant professor of English at Yale, is editing "The
> Yale
> Anthology of Contemporary Irish Poetry."
>
>
>
>
> <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
> The Educational CyberPlayGround
> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/
>
> National Children's Folksong Repository
> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/
>
> Hot List of Schools Online and
> Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters
> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/
>
> 7 Hot Site Awards
> New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink,
> USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty
> <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 06:27:38 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:27:38 -0500
Subject: a bunch of the boys ?was/?were...
In-Reply-To: <E1D5cXK-0003U9-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.012738.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 27, 2005, at 11:29 PM, Arnold M. Zwicky wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
> Subject:      a bunch of the boys ?was/?were...
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I was struck by the following sentence in a review (NYT Book Review,
> 2/27/05, p. 17) of JT LeRoy's "Harold's End" by Albert Mobilio, who
> edits the fiction section of Bookforum:
> -----
> "Harold's End" is set in the parks and alleys of San Francisco, where a
> group of teenage hustlers takes drugs and turns tricks.
> -----
>
> I would have gone for "take" and "turn" myself, but it's an arguable
> point.

It's not an arguable point at all. You are correct, sir. All that one
need do is apply the relevant prescriptive rule:

1) "The group" et sim. require a singular verb phrase.

2) "A group" et sim. require a plural verb phrase.

-Wilson [I do but jest, of course. But (1) and (2) above are real
prescriptive rules that I was taught in high school.]

>
> Ncollective + [ of + NPpl ] is taken up by MWDEU under the heading
> "agreement, subject-verb: a bunch of the boys" (as in the immortal line
> "A bunch of the boys were whooping it up in the Malamute saloon").  Its
> advice is that when the sense is plural, as it usually is, the verb
> should be too, though some grammatical sticklers insist that the PP is
> just a partitive (as in "a vase of flowers") so the agreement should be
> singular.
>
> Now, there are some collective Ns that have been completely
> grammaticalized as determiners and so are transparent to the number and
> count/mass classification of the head N: a lot of shrubbery has thorns,
> a lot of shrubs have/*has thorns.  For me, there are a few collective
> Ns that are invariably heads: The committee/team was/*were working on
> reports.  For me, the subject-verb agreement remains singular even when
> a plural anaphoric pronoun is called for; The committee/team was/*were
> working on their/??its individual reports.  (Others, especially British
> speakers, have other judgments here.  CGEL, section 18.2 of chapter 5,
> has an extensive discussion of the collective facts, taking "committee"
> as the paradigm example of a noun allowing either agreement.)
>
> In any case, for me, most other collective Ns permit either agreement,
> though they strongly trigger plural agreement when the sense is plural,
> as it is with taking drugs and turning tricks.
>
> MWDEU displays several examples of the Mobilio sort, which it suggests
> "may be the result of nervous copy editors or indecision on the part of
> the writers".  Ah, the perils of instruction.
>
> arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)
>


From Jerryekane at AOL.COM  Mon Feb 28 06:47:52 2005
From: Jerryekane at AOL.COM (Jerry E Kane)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:47:52 EST
Subject: Spim - New Form of Spam
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.014752.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Following is an excerpt from an article in the Los Angeles Times dated,
Saturday, Feb 19th :

N.Y. Man Arrested Over Instant Message Spam
by Joseph Menn
Times Staff Writer

Flooding the inbox is no longer enough.

Now spammers have gone beyond e-mail and are attacking instant-message
services
popular with teenagers, authorities said Friday as they announced the arrest
of a young man suspected of broadcasting 1.5 million ads for pornography and
cheap
mortgages.

Federal prosecutors said it was the first criminal case involving this new
form of spam - known as "spim" because it targets so-called IM services.
.......................................

Jerry E Kane
Los Angeles, CA


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 06:57:08 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 01:57:08 -0500
Subject: Bachata (Dominican dance); Vitamin R (rum)
In-Reply-To: <E1D5dOx-0000DO-00@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.015708.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

According to the book, "Voodoo Fire In Haiti" by Richard Loederer
(1935), the merengue, which he spells as "merinqu?," is the national
dance of Haiti. Although I've known both Dominicans and Haitians, it's
never occurred to me to ask about the merengue WRT Haiti. But the
Dominicans definitely claim the merengue as their national dance. If
you have cable, it's easy to find Dominican TV shows devoted to the
merengue. As is so often the case in such situations, I find the
merengue as I first heard it in 1957 to be superior to the merengue of
today.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 28, 2005, at 12:24 AM, Bapopik at AOL.COM wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Bachata (Dominican dance); Vitamin R (rum)
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Greetings from New York City. I rushed back to witness Monday's =20
> storm..."Mama juana" is also "mamajuana," of course. "To/too" was
> copied and=
>  not  typed by=20
> me.
> ...
> OT: My autistic nephew received a stem cell shot down there. It
> appears to =20
> have been worthless. Autism is on the cover of Newsweek and was on the
> front=
>  =20
> page of Saturday's New York Times.
> ...
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----=
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------
> VITAMIN R
> ...
> I posted that "rum" was "Vitamin A." It's also "Vitamin R," according
> to =20
> another tour guide.
> ...
> ...
> (GOOGLE)
> ...
> _Sunworld Holidays - Irish Tour Operator providing holidays online
> ..._=20
> (http://www.sunworld.ie/destinations/dominican_republic.htm)=20
> ... English is spoken in most  tourist areas. Currency: Dominican
> Peso. ...=20
> Drink:
> The most  popular drink is 'Vitamin R' - rum to the visitor.  ...=20
> www.sunworld.ie/destinations/dominican_republic.htm - 28k - _Cached_=20
> (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:bYn2GvH5u4cJ:www.sunworld.ie/
> destina=
> tions/dominic
> an_republic.htm+"vitamin+r"+rum+dominican&hl=3Den&lr=3Dlang_en&ie=3DUTF
> -8) =20=
> -=20
> _Similar pages_=20
> (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3Dlang_en&ie=3DUTF
> -8&q=3Drelated:ww=
> w.sunworld.ie/destinations/dominican_republic.htm) =20
> ...
> _One Click From Sanity: January 2004 Archives_=20
> (http://www.worldwidesam.net/oneclickfromsanity/archives/
> 2004_01.html)=20
> ... for the delay in my continuing story of the Dominican  Republic.
> ...=20
> That's how the tour
> guide, Osvaldo, pronounced  Vitamin R, and he was referring to rum.
> ... =20
> www.worldwidesam.net/  oneclickfromsanity/archives/2004_01.html - 77k
> -=20
> _Cached_=20
> (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:yNb2VoPZbSsJ:
> www.worldwidesam.net/on=
> eclickfromsanity/archives/
> 2004_01.html+"vitamin+r"+rum+dominican&hl=3Den&lr=
> =3Dlang_
> en&ie=3DUTF-8)  - _Similar pages_=20
> (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3Dlang_en&ie=3DUTF
> -8&q=3Drelated:ww=
> w.worldwidesam.net/oneclickfromsanity/archives/2004_01.h
> tml) =20
> ...
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----=
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------
> BACHATA
> ...
> OED has no entry for "bachata" and only one citation. Along with
> meringue =20
> and salsa, "bachata" is a national dance in the Dominican Republic.
> It's got=
> ta =20
> be in the dictionary.
> ...
> ...
> (OED)
>     2.  fig. Vigorous, powerful; very intense; cf. _OCTANE_=20
> (http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/crossref?
> query_type=3Dfulltext&queryword=3Dba=
> chata&first=3D1&max_to_sho
> w=3D10&search_spec=3Dfulltext&sort_type=3Dalpha&search_id=3DzTNu-
> IrkJQS-9628=
> &control_n
> o=3D00335164&result_place=3D1&xrefword=3Doctane&ps=3Dn.)  n. 3.=20
>
> 1944 N.Y.  Times 19 Mar. II. 3/6  High octane ballyhoo..has..smartly
> reverse=
> d=20
> the usual procedure  of opus first and publicity, advertising and=20
> exploitation afterward. 1974 _E.  BOWEN_=20
> (http://dictionary.oed.com/help/bib/oed2-b3.html#e-bowen)  Henry &
> Other Her=
> oes iv. 77 Mother and Uncle Harry, whose bodies=20
> and brains happened to be  huge, paired engines that ran on
> high-octane=20
> ambition. 1995 Wire Jan. 57/2 His high-octane  Latino product decants
> ska, s=
> alsa,=20
> hi-life, mambo and just about anything and  everything else South
> American i=
> nto a=20
> peculiarly Dominican form of merengue  called bachata.
> ...
> ...
> ...
> (GOOGLE)
> ...
> _Merengue &  Bachata from the Dominican Republic_=20
> (http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/)  - [ _Translate this page_=20
> (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=3Den&sl=3Des&u=3Dhttp://
> home-3.tis=
> cali.nl/~pjetax/&prev=3D/search?q=3Dbachata&hl=3Den&lr=3D&i
> e=3DUTF-8)  ]=20
>     Music from and information about the Dominican  Republic,
> Merengue,=20
> Bachata and Perico Ripiao, a lot of music  examples and pictures of
> the coun=
> try.=20
> ...=20
> home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/ - 12k - _Cached_=20
> (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:wCArm0E9W3EJ:home
> -3.tiscali.nl/~pjet=
> ax/+bachata&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8)  -=20
> _Similar pages_=20
> (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated:
> home-3.ti=
> scali.nl/~pjetax/)=20
> ...
> _History of bachata_=20
> (http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/historias/history_bachata.html)
> Music=
>  and information from the Dominican  Republic, Merengue,=20
> Bachata and Perico Ripiao, a lot of examples of  the music and
> pictures of t=
> he=20
> country. ...=20
> home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/  historias/history_bachata.html - 15k -
> _Cached_=20
> (http://64.233.161.104/search?q=3Dcache:EBFlXrAMg5UJ:home
> -3.tiscali.nl/~pjet=
> ax/his
> torias/history_bachata.html+bachata&hl=3Den&ie=3DUTF-8)  - _Similar
> pages_=20
> (http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&lr=3D&ie=3DUTF-8&q=3Drelated:
> home-3.ti=
> scali.nl/~pjetax/
> historias/history_bachata.html)=20
>
> ...=20
> ...
> _http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/historias/history_bachata.html_
> (http://ho=
> m
> e-3.tiscali.nl/~pjetax/historias/history_bachata.html)=20
> =20
> This text was taken from the book "Bachata, A social history of a
> Dominican=20=
> =20
> popular music", published by Temple University Press in 1995, written
> by=20
> Deborah  Pacini Hernandez.
> Defining Bachata
> The music that today is  called bachata emerged from and belongs to
> a=20
> long-standin Pan-Latin American  tradition of guitar music, m=FAsica
> de guit=
> arra, which=20
> was typically played  by trios or quartets comprised of one or two
> guitars=20
> (or other related stringed  instrument such as the smaller requito),
> with=20
> percussion provided by  maracas and/or other instruments such as
> claves (har=
> dwood=20
> sticks used for  percussion), bongo drums, or a gourd g=FCiro scraper.
> Somet=
> imes a=20
> large thumb bass  called marimba or marimbula was included as well.
> When=20
> bachata emerged in the  early 1960s, it was part of an important
> subcategory=
>  of=20
> guitar music, romantic  guitar music -as distinguished from guitar
> music=20
> intended primarily for dancing  such as th Cuban son or guaracha-
> although i=
> n later=20
> decades, as  musicians began speeding up the rhythm and dancers
> developed a=20=
> new=20
> dance step,  bachata began to be considered dance music as well. The
> most=20
> popular and  widespread genre of romantic guitar music in this
> century, and=20=
> the=20
> most  influential for the development of bachata, was the Cuban bolero
> (not=20=
> to=20
> be  confused with the unrelated Spanish bolero). Bachata musicians,
> however,=
> =20
> also  drew upon other genres of m=FAsica de guitarra that accomplished
> guita=
> rists=20
> would  be familiar with, including Mexican rancheros and corridos,
> Cuban =20
> son, guaracha and guajira, Puerto Rican plena and  jibaro music, and
> the=20
> Colombian-Ecuadorian vals campesino and  pasillo- as well as the
> Dominican m=
> erengue,=20
> which was originally  guitar-based.
> Before the development of a Dominican  redording industry and the
> spread of=20
> the mass media, guitar-based trios and  quartets were almost
> indispensable f=
> or=20
> a variety of informal recreational events  such as Sunday afternoon
> parties=20
> known as pasad=EDas and spontaneous  gatherings that took place in
> back yard=
> s,=20
> living rooms, or in the street that  were known as bachatas.
> Dictionaries of=
> =20
> Latin American Spanish define the  term bachata as juerga, jolgorio,
> or parr=
> anda,=20
> all of which  denote fun, merriment, a good time, or a spree, but in
> the=20
> Dominican Republic,  in addition to the emotional quality of fun and
> enjoyme=
> nt=20
> suggested by the  dictionary definition, it referred specifically to
> get-tog=
> ethers=20
> that included  music, drink, and food. The musicians who played at
> bachatas=20
> were usually local,  friends an neighbors of the host, although
> sometimes=20
> reputed musicians from  farther away might be brought in for a special
> occac=
> ion.=20
> Musicians were normally  recompensed only with food and drink, but a
> little=20
> money might be given as well.  Parties were usually held on Saturday
> night a=
> nd=20
> would go on until dawn, at which  time a traditional soup, the
> sancocho, was=
> =20
> served to the remaining  guests. Because the music played at htese
> gathering=
> s was=20
> so often played on  guitars (although accordio-based ensembles were
> also=20
> common), the guitar-based  music recorded in the 1960s and 1970s by
> musician=
> s of=20
> rural origins came to be  known as bachata.
> The word bachata also had  certain associations, upper-class parties
> would=20
> never be called bachatas. In his  book Al amor del boh=EDo (1927),
> Ram=F3n E=
> milio=20
> Jim=E9nez, a distinguished  Dominican "man of leters" and "writer of
> manners=
> ,"=20
> described a bachata in terms  that reflect how such gatherings were
> associat=
> ed by=20
> the elite with low-class  debauchery and dissipation:
>
> The "bachata" is a center of attraction for  all the men, where the
> social=20
> classes ao those who attend them are leveled and  where the coarsest
> and=20
> libertarian forms of democracy predominate. The most  elegant figures
> of the=
>  barrio=20
> are there, daring and audacious. The setting of  these dissolute
> pleasures i=
> s a=20
> small living room impregnated by odors that seem  conjured to
> challenge=20
> decency....In an adjoining room a guitarist plucks and  unleashes into
> the=20
> contaminated air of the house (a) blazing street-level  couplet, to
> which a=20=
> singer=20
> with a well-established reputation as a "second"  makes a duo,
> provisioned w=
> ith a=20
> pair of spoons which he strikes to accompany the  melody.
>


From barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM  Mon Feb 28 11:21:00 2005
From: barnhart at HIGHLANDS.COM (Barnhart)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:21:00 -0500
Subject: Bachata (Dominican dance); Vitamin R (rum)
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.062100.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>From the future issue of The Barnhart DICTIONARY COMPANION:

bachata, ba CHA tah /ba?cha ta/, n. {W}  1.  a popular form of music from
Dominican Republic, characterized by bitter themes.  Compare tipico and
salsa and bamba.  Standard (used in contexts dealing especially with
entertainment; frequency?)

The ?merengue tipico? (or ?perico ripiao?) and the ?bachata? derives from
the countryside of the Dominican Republic. The "tipico" has an infectious
party rhythm which, no matter where you're from, invites you to dance. The
?bachata? on the other hand can be compared to the ?blues?, where its
melancholic sounds makes you yearn for a love long ago gone.  Spanish
Goodies.com,
<http://spanishgoodies.safeshopper.com/11/cat11.htm?984>

And it's not just the older generation that listens to the music of their
homeland. Many teens born in the United States are rabid fans of all
styles of Latin music, a direct influence of their parents. It is not
unusual to see low-slung cars booming to the intricate rhythms of
Merengue, Mambo, Salsa, or Bachata, where in other neighborhoods hip-hop
might be the choice.  Dylan M. Archilla, ?Soul of a community: Latin music
binds UC, WNY communities,? The Union City Reporter.com, Jan. 19, 2003,
<http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=6731671&BRD=1295&PAG=461&dept_id=142205&rfi=6>

Dominican music comes in two forms: the exuberantly sensuous merengue and
something called ?bachata.?  Bachata ? which sounds like the Gypsy Kings
meet Paul Simon in Graceland ? is devoted to hurtin? love songs.  ?I love
bachata,? says Santana. ?When I listen to bachata, I cry.?  Laura Robin,
?Take sweet talk with grain of salt,? Edmonton Journal [Edmonton
Canada.com], Jan. 19, 2003,
<http://www.canada.com/edmonton/edmontonjournal/story.asp?id=C40F6C4F-BE1E-459C-8505-49F562AF55DD>

For those who want to start the year with a little more snap, try the New
Year's Party Latino Style at the Chena River Convention Center. The
family-oriented dance will start at 9 p.m. and go until 2 a.m.   ?We?ll
have a wide variety of Latino music: salsa, merengue, bachata, tejano,
ranchero,? said organizer Jose Martinez, owner of ATM Productions. The
cost is $10 a person, ages 12 and older. There will be door prizes,
including a grand prize of a patriotic leather jacket, Martinez said.
Diana Campbell, ?New Year?s Eve Offers Variety of Events,? Fairbanks
[Alaska] News-Miner, Dec. 31, 2002,
<http://www.news-miner.com/Stories/0,1413,113%257E7247%257E1082357,00.html>

2. Attributive use.

Derived from the Latin American tradition of guitar music, bachata emerged
in the 1960s only to be denigrated by the media, mainstream musicians, and
middle- and upper-class Dominicans, mainly because the lyrics?often about
hard drinking, women troubles, illicit sex, and male bravado?were
considered vulgar and worthless. While popular radio filled the air waves
with merengue and salsa, bachata musicians were forced to develop their
own system of producing and distributing their music. Not until Juan Luis
Guerra won a Grammy in 1992 for his album Bachata Rosa did bachata gain
legitimacy and international recognition. Deborah Pacini Hernandez,
?Bachata; A Social History of a Dominican Popular Music,? Temple
University, 2003,
<http://www.temple.edu/tempress/titles/1135_reg.html>

Featuring performances and interviews with Bachata artists and
ethno-musicologists, the hour-long documentary was shot in New York and
Santo Domingo. It is the first in-depth exploration of this musical genre,
examining various influences from neighboring Caribbean countries and its
parallels with American Blues.  ?Filmmaker presents documentary about
Bachata music,? News Release from University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point,
Nov. 5, 2002,
<http://www.uwsp.edu/news/pr/scBachata.htm>

1991? (in English).  Loan word (borrowing): from Spanish bachata, meaning
?.?  Perhaps related to bacha, meaning ?butt, stub,? or bache, meaning
?bad time.?


bachatera, bah cha TAIR uh, /ba t*a?ter a/, n. {W}  a woman who performs
bachata.  Standard (used in contexts dealing especially with entertainment
in general and music in particular; frequency?)

Many informal jam sessions on back porches and patios, the essence of
roots Bachata, were also documented. In addition to Luis Vargas, known as
the Supreme King of Bitterness, featured artists include Teodoro Reyes
(the wise little blind man), Raul?n Rodr?guez (the chieftain), Ramon
Cordero, Eladio Romero Santos, Joan Soriano, Luis Segura and Aridia
Ventura, the sole female bachatera in a sea of machismo. Scenes in poor
neighborhoods of Santo Domingo and other towns introduce supporting
characters to develop some of the themes of what is definitely a music of
the people.  ?Santo Domingo Blues: ?Notes on the Making of Santo Domingo
Blues?,? Mombo Media,
<http://www.santodomingoblues.com/themaking.html>

Loan word (borrowing): from Spanish bachatera.  Compare bachata.


bachatero, bah chuh TAIR oh /ba t*a?TER ou/, n.   a musician who plays or
sings bachata.    Compare bachatera.   Standard (used in contexts dealing
especially with entertainment in general and music in particular;
frequency?)

AW [Afropop Worldwide]: What artistic names have you used over the years?
LV [Luis Vargas]: First they called me the "Jefe Supremo de la Bachata"
[Supreme Boss of Bachata]. A friend of mine who was a radio disk jockey
baptized me with that one. His name is Salvador D?az Alejo. In that area
of the northeast border line [with Haiti] I was the only bachatero. There
were no others. That's when they called me the "Jefe Supremo." Later when
I moved to Santiago de los Caballeros, they baptized me the "Rey Supremo
de la Bachata" [the Supreme King of Bachata]. These terms, these
qualifiers, don't have anything to do with trying to be superior to
anyone. It's just that these nicknames have become a tradition in Bachata.
I don't really feel like a king, but I like my nickname.
AW: What do you call te guitar you use now?
LV: The one I use now? Well, it's a normal guitar but we have adapted it
to carry a pickup microphone, as if it were electric. I was the first one
to make this modification.  Later other bachateros begin to do the same.
Alex Wolf, ?Santo Domingo Blues? an interview with Luis Vargas for Afropop
Worldwide <http://www.afropop.org/multi/interview/ID/24>

1998?  Loan word (borrowing): from Spanish bachatero.  Compare bachata.

David K. Barnhart, Editor/Publisher
The Barnhart DICTIONARY COMPANION
Lexik at highlands.com


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Mon Feb 28 12:23:05 2005
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:23:05 -0600
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <98da106d23fed42fe03129efba4b24c5@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.062305.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The one with all instruments going would be "McNamara's Band." Don't
forget "When Irish Eyes are Smiling," "A Little Bit of Heaven," and the
ever-popular "Has Anyone Here Seen Kelly" (at least at my house).

sally donlon


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Mon Feb 28 12:45:51 2005
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 06:45:51 -0600
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <98da106d23fed42fe03129efba4b24c5@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.064551.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

But the one the kids liked most of all was that bit of Irish bull set
to melody called "Bridget O'Flynn."

sally donlon


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 28 12:44:54 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 04:44:54 -0800
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.044454.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

The song with the clanging symbols is "Macnamara's Band" (1917), by Shamus O'Connor & John J. Stamford.  Your computer will play the tune right here:

http://www.rienzihills.com/SING/macnamarasband.htm

Bing Crosby recorded it during WWII.

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I remember "Macushla" as one of several Irish-themed popular songs of
my childhood. I had no idea that it was so old. Some others are:

Casey Lowered The Boom
Christmas In Killarney
Mother Macree, i.e. Mathair Mo Chroi "Mother, My Heart"
Derry Air (= Danny Boy)
Harrington

and a couple of others that I remember only a few words of, e.g.
"....The drums go banging / The cymbals clanging / The horns they blaze
away...."

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 27, 2005, at 5:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> You can start diggin' the rockin' sheet music to "Macushla," by
> Jospehine V. Rowe & Dermot MacMurrough (1910) right here :
>
> http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl?
> record=153.109a.000&pages=5
>
> Or if lyrics alone are your bag, check it :
>
> Macushla! Macushla! your sweet voice is calling,
> Calling me softly again and again;
> Macushla! Macushla! I hear its dear pleading,
> My blue eyed Macushla, I hear it in vain!
>
> Macushla! Macushla! your white arms are reaching,
> I feel them enfolding, caressing me still!
> Fling them out from the darkness, my lost love Macushla!
> Let them find me, and bind me again if they will!
>
> Macushla! Macushla! your red lips are saying,
> That death is a dream and love is for aye;
> Then awaken Macushla! Awake from your dreaming!
> My blue eyed Macushla! awaken to
> stay!
>
> (Unlikely to have been on Yeats's hit parade.)
>
>
> JL
>
> Educational CyberPlayGround wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround
> Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Hey Y'all
>
> Irish lingo has been nominated for an Oscar in Million Dollar Baby
> along
> with the phrase mo chuisle (macushla).
>
> best,
> karen ellis
>
>
> February 26, 2005
> OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
> Fighting Words
> By WES DAVIS
>
> BEFORE the bell has sounded at the start of her first title fight in
> Clint
> Eastwood's Oscar-nominated film "Million Dollar Baby," the scrappy,
> big-hearted boxer Maggie Fitzgerald, played by Hilary Swank, finds
> herself
> cheered into the ring by shouts of "Mo Cuishle," the Irish Gaelic
> moniker
> she's been given by her manager, Frankie Dunn, played by Mr. Eastwood.
>
> The name is a shortened form of the phrase "A chuisle mo chro?," "O,
> pulse
> of my heart," or as Frankie will put it more concisely, "My darling."
> But
> Ms. Swank's character doesn't know that yet and neither do we. All we
> know
> is that the words emblazoned - and some argue misspelled - on the back
> of
> her robe are important to a lot of people.
>
> Apparently they still are. After seeing the movie, I overheard
> whispered
> conversations about "Mo Cuishle." A few of the movie goers confessed
> that
> they hadn't even known there was an Irish language apart from English,
> but
> they were captivated by the sound of it. In the last few weeks some
> queries
> about the phrase have arisen on the Internet, and students of the
> language
> are coming out of the woodwork. Around Valentine's Day, in particular,
> many
> Web surfers were frantic to learn how to address their darlings in
> Irish.
>
> That sort of popular reaction makes sense. In the shorthand of the
> film, the
> Irish, scattered by hardship in their home country but strangely
> united by
> the trials that threw them apart, stand for a culture of underdogs,
> and the
> language that was once the common idiom in Ireland becomes the
> watchword of
> the movie's romantic idea of the hero.
>
> As Maggie's boxing career builds to its climax, Mr. Eastwood hinges the
> movie's emotional peaks on the longing held in the Irish language. The
> most
> moving of these moments occurs when Mr. Eastwood's character finally
> reveals
> the meaning of "Mo Cuishle," and when he translates W. B. Yeats's
> "Lake Isle
> of Innisfree" from the little Irish-language book he carries like a
> talisman
> throughout the movie.
>
> An achingly beautiful poem, "Lake Isle" expresses a yearning for
> escape that
> fits perfectly with the movie's hope that it may be possible to build
> a new
> life. For Yeats, the fantasy retreat is a rustic cabin in a "bee-loud
> glade." In the movie, it's the "little place in the cedars, somewhere
> between nowhere and goodbye," imagined by the character played by
> Morgan
> Freeman.
>
> Yeats's poem also reflects on the more rugged emotional landscape the
> film
> exposes. In "Lake Isle," as in "Million Dollar Baby," the dream of
> escape
> finally slams against the hard facts of real life. The dream can
> survive, as
> Yeats puts it, only "in the deep heart's core." In the movie, the
> dream is
> mined by Mr. Eastwood's character when he labors to translate the poem
> from
> the Gaelic for Maggie. It feels as if he's extracting a gift of hope
> for her
> out of the bedrock of Ireland's nearly forgotten language.
>
> There's just one hitch: Yeats didn't write his poems in Irish. He
> didn't
> even know the language well enough to read it.
>
> On the whole, Yeats was less than rigorous in the way he represented
> his own
> linguistic abilities. He was never fluent in French, for example, but
> he
> talked breezily about the latest French book once his friends had read
> it to
> him. Having once made a stab at memorizing the Hebrew alphabet, he
> would
> later lament having forgotten his Hebrew. But about Irish he was
> completely
> clear. He tried to learn it, and he failed.
>
> The language issue was a vexed one for Yeats. Like many of his
> countrymen,
> he was at times drawn to the image of Ireland as a nation speaking its
> own
> language. He actively promoted dramatic performances in Irish.
>
> But he knew that much of Ireland's literary life, and even more of its
> practical business, had been carried on in English for over a century.
> When
> Yeats was serving in the Senate of the newly independent Irish Free
> State in
> 1923, he spoke against a proposal that the prayer at the start of every
> session be delivered in Irish as well as English. He protested that the
> Irish prayer was "a childish performance," since, like him, most of the
> senators didn't know the language and were unlikely to learn it.
>
> Later, when the Senate was considering a proposal to add Irish to the
> country's traffic signs and railway notices, he argued against it on
> similar
> grounds, fearing that forcing the language on people at a moment when
> they
> just wanted information would hurt the efforts of groups like the
> Gaelic
> League to preserve Irish and spread its use. In the same session,
> though, he
> called for government support of scholarship on Irish language and
> literature.
>
> Strange as the idea would have seemed to him, Yeats almost certainly
> would
> have supported the translation of his own poems into Irish. Such
> translations do now exist, so it's not impossible to imagine Mr.
> Eastwood's
> character wrestling an Irish translation back into the original
> English.
>
> But all of this is ultimately less important to the film than the
> effect
> "Million Dollar Baby" achieves with its use of Irish. From a cinematic
> point
> of view, Mr. Eastwood couldn't have done better than to adopt the
> endangered
> language of a culture whose history has been as dramatic as that of his
> characters. And the wonderful twist of the film's pretense of
> translating
> "The Lake Isle of Innisfree" from the Irish is that it seems to have
> done
> just what the Gaelic League and all those Senate proposals, and even
> the
> contrary Yeats, ultimately wanted. It has stirred up interest in the
> language itself.
>
> Wes Davis, an assistant professor of English at Yale, is editing "The
> Yale
> Anthology of Contemporary Irish Poetry."
>
>
>
>
> <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
> The Educational CyberPlayGround
> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/
>
> National Children's Folksong Repository
> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/
>
> Hot List of Schools Online and
> Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters
> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/
>
> 7 Hot Site Awards
> New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink,
> USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty
> <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
>





---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
 Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 13:44:48 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:44:48 -0500
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <E1D5juN-0007Qb-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.084448.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

How do you know....? Oh, of course. You're Sally O'Donlon! ;-)

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 28, 2005, at 7:23 AM, Sally O. Donlon wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Sally O. Donlon" <sod at LOUISIANA.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The one with all instruments going would be "McNamara's Band." Don't
> forget "When Irish Eyes are Smiling," "A Little Bit of Heaven," and the
> ever-popular "Has Anyone Here Seen Kelly" (at least at my house).
>
> sally donlon
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 14:14:22 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:14:22 -0500
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <E1D5kGe-0003kE-00@mx10.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.091422.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Right you are. And, again, I'm surprised by how old the song is. Does
anybody else remember the radio and comic-book character, Hop Harrigan,
his sidekick, whose name I've forgotten (Tank? But I'm probably
confusing him with Tank McNamara), and the gremlin. whose name I've
also forgotten. But I still remember the nickname that Hop gave to the
native girl: "Singsong." Which reminds me, the song title is
"Harrigan," not "Harrington." No wonder that I couldn't match the meter
with the song: "Spell it H, A, dooble R, I, G, A, N ?spells 'Harrigan'?
That's me!"

-Wilson

On Feb 28, 2005, at 7:44 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The song with the clanging symbols is "Macnamara's Band" (1917), by
> Shamus O'Connor & John J. Stamford.  Your computer will play the tune
> right here:
>
> http://www.rienzihills.com/SING/macnamarasband.htm
>
> Bing Crosby recorded it during WWII.
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I remember "Macushla" as one of several Irish-themed popular songs of
> my childhood. I had no idea that it was so old. Some others are:
>
> Casey Lowered The Boom
> Christmas In Killarney
> Mother Macree, i.e. Mathair Mo Chroi "Mother, My Heart"
> Derry Air (= Danny Boy)
> Harrington
>
> and a couple of others that I remember only a few words of, e.g.
> "....The drums go banging / The cymbals clanging / The horns they blaze
> away...."
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
> On Feb 27, 2005, at 5:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> You can start diggin' the rockin' sheet music to "Macushla," by
>> Jospehine V. Rowe & Dermot MacMurrough (1910) right here :
>>
>> http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl?
>> record=153.109a.000&pages=5
>>
>> Or if lyrics alone are your bag, check it :
>>
>> Macushla! Macushla! your sweet voice is calling,
>> Calling me softly again and again;
>> Macushla! Macushla! I hear its dear pleading,
>> My blue eyed Macushla, I hear it in vain!
>>
>> Macushla! Macushla! your white arms are reaching,
>> I feel them enfolding, caressing me still!
>> Fling them out from the darkness, my lost love Macushla!
>> Let them find me, and bind me again if they will!
>>
>> Macushla! Macushla! your red lips are saying,
>> That death is a dream and love is for aye;
>> Then awaken Macushla! Awake from your dreaming!
>> My blue eyed Macushla! awaken to
>> stay!
>>
>> (Unlikely to have been on Yeats's hit parade.)
>>
>>
>> JL
>>
>> Educational CyberPlayGround wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround
>> Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Hey Y'all
>>
>> Irish lingo has been nominated for an Oscar in Million Dollar Baby
>> along
>> with the phrase mo chuisle (macushla).
>>
>> best,
>> karen ellis
>>
>>
>> February 26, 2005
>> OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
>> Fighting Words
>> By WES DAVIS
>>
>> BEFORE the bell has sounded at the start of her first title fight in
>> Clint
>> Eastwood's Oscar-nominated film "Million Dollar Baby," the scrappy,
>> big-hearted boxer Maggie Fitzgerald, played by Hilary Swank, finds
>> herself
>> cheered into the ring by shouts of "Mo Cuishle," the Irish Gaelic
>> moniker
>> she's been given by her manager, Frankie Dunn, played by Mr. Eastwood.
>>
>> The name is a shortened form of the phrase "A chuisle mo chro?," "O,
>> pulse
>> of my heart," or as Frankie will put it more concisely, "My darling."
>> But
>> Ms. Swank's character doesn't know that yet and neither do we. All we
>> know
>> is that the words emblazoned - and some argue misspelled - on the back
>> of
>> her robe are important to a lot of people.
>>
>> Apparently they still are. After seeing the movie, I overheard
>> whispered
>> conversations about "Mo Cuishle." A few of the movie goers confessed
>> that
>> they hadn't even known there was an Irish language apart from English,
>> but
>> they were captivated by the sound of it. In the last few weeks some
>> queries
>> about the phrase have arisen on the Internet, and students of the
>> language
>> are coming out of the woodwork. Around Valentine's Day, in particular,
>> many
>> Web surfers were frantic to learn how to address their darlings in
>> Irish.
>>
>> That sort of popular reaction makes sense. In the shorthand of the
>> film, the
>> Irish, scattered by hardship in their home country but strangely
>> united by
>> the trials that threw them apart, stand for a culture of underdogs,
>> and the
>> language that was once the common idiom in Ireland becomes the
>> watchword of
>> the movie's romantic idea of the hero.
>>
>> As Maggie's boxing career builds to its climax, Mr. Eastwood hinges
>> the
>> movie's emotional peaks on the longing held in the Irish language. The
>> most
>> moving of these moments occurs when Mr. Eastwood's character finally
>> reveals
>> the meaning of "Mo Cuishle," and when he translates W. B. Yeats's
>> "Lake Isle
>> of Innisfree" from the little Irish-language book he carries like a
>> talisman
>> throughout the movie.
>>
>> An achingly beautiful poem, "Lake Isle" expresses a yearning for
>> escape that
>> fits perfectly with the movie's hope that it may be possible to build
>> a new
>> life. For Yeats, the fantasy retreat is a rustic cabin in a "bee-loud
>> glade." In the movie, it's the "little place in the cedars, somewhere
>> between nowhere and goodbye," imagined by the character played by
>> Morgan
>> Freeman.
>>
>> Yeats's poem also reflects on the more rugged emotional landscape the
>> film
>> exposes. In "Lake Isle," as in "Million Dollar Baby," the dream of
>> escape
>> finally slams against the hard facts of real life. The dream can
>> survive, as
>> Yeats puts it, only "in the deep heart's core." In the movie, the
>> dream is
>> mined by Mr. Eastwood's character when he labors to translate the poem
>> from
>> the Gaelic for Maggie. It feels as if he's extracting a gift of hope
>> for her
>> out of the bedrock of Ireland's nearly forgotten language.
>>
>> There's just one hitch: Yeats didn't write his poems in Irish. He
>> didn't
>> even know the language well enough to read it.
>>
>> On the whole, Yeats was less than rigorous in the way he represented
>> his own
>> linguistic abilities. He was never fluent in French, for example, but
>> he
>> talked breezily about the latest French book once his friends had read
>> it to
>> him. Having once made a stab at memorizing the Hebrew alphabet, he
>> would
>> later lament having forgotten his Hebrew. But about Irish he was
>> completely
>> clear. He tried to learn it, and he failed.
>>
>> The language issue was a vexed one for Yeats. Like many of his
>> countrymen,
>> he was at times drawn to the image of Ireland as a nation speaking its
>> own
>> language. He actively promoted dramatic performances in Irish.
>>
>> But he knew that much of Ireland's literary life, and even more of its
>> practical business, had been carried on in English for over a century.
>> When
>> Yeats was serving in the Senate of the newly independent Irish Free
>> State in
>> 1923, he spoke against a proposal that the prayer at the start of
>> every
>> session be delivered in Irish as well as English. He protested that
>> the
>> Irish prayer was "a childish performance," since, like him, most of
>> the
>> senators didn't know the language and were unlikely to learn it.
>>
>> Later, when the Senate was considering a proposal to add Irish to the
>> country's traffic signs and railway notices, he argued against it on
>> similar
>> grounds, fearing that forcing the language on people at a moment when
>> they
>> just wanted information would hurt the efforts of groups like the
>> Gaelic
>> League to preserve Irish and spread its use. In the same session,
>> though, he
>> called for government support of scholarship on Irish language and
>> literature.
>>
>> Strange as the idea would have seemed to him, Yeats almost certainly
>> would
>> have supported the translation of his own poems into Irish. Such
>> translations do now exist, so it's not impossible to imagine Mr.
>> Eastwood's
>> character wrestling an Irish translation back into the original
>> English.
>>
>> But all of this is ultimately less important to the film than the
>> effect
>> "Million Dollar Baby" achieves with its use of Irish. From a cinematic
>> point
>> of view, Mr. Eastwood couldn't have done better than to adopt the
>> endangered
>> language of a culture whose history has been as dramatic as that of
>> his
>> characters. And the wonderful twist of the film's pretense of
>> translating
>> "The Lake Isle of Innisfree" from the Irish is that it seems to have
>> done
>> just what the Gaelic League and all those Senate proposals, and even
>> the
>> contrary Yeats, ultimately wanted. It has stirred up interest in the
>> language itself.
>>
>> Wes Davis, an assistant professor of English at Yale, is editing "The
>> Yale
>> Anthology of Contemporary Irish Poetry."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
>> The Educational CyberPlayGround
>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/
>>
>> National Children's Folksong Repository
>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/
>>
>> Hot List of Schools Online and
>> Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters
>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/
>>
>> 7 Hot Site Awards
>> New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink,
>> USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty
>> <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
>


From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Feb 28 14:17:06 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:17:06 +0100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.151706.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Here's an article from the New Scientist about the linguistic abilities
of gay and straight men and women:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7069

I didn't write the article, and the findings may well be arrant
nonsense, but I thought some ADS readers might be interested.

Paul
________________________
Paul Frank
Chinese-English translator
paulfrank at post.harvard.edu
http://languagejottings.blogspot.com


From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Feb 28 14:18:06 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:18:06 +0100
Subject: gays and straights
In-Reply-To: <20050228141707.960672A2D@post.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.151806.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Apologies for sending this without a header.

> Here's an article from the New Scientist about the linguistic abilities
> of gay and straight men and women:
>
> http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7069
>
> I didn't write the article, and the findings may well be arrant
> nonsense, but I thought some ADS readers might be interested.

Paul
________________________
Paul Frank
Chinese-English translator
paulfrank at post.harvard.edu
http://languagejottings.blogspot.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Feb 28 14:46:13 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:46:13 -0500
Subject: obsolescene [was church key]
In-Reply-To: <f89d3c229fd22c24f802c4f50fbd2d4c@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.094613.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:39 PM -0500 2/27/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>
>
>I remember the "need ice" sign as being exactly as you describe it. I
>recall that the brand name of the icebox was "Coolerator." Frigidaires
>were originally manufactured by GM. I googled it. Coolerator made
>electric fridges, too. But, when we upgraded to electric, we got a
>Kelvinator. For a while, we borrowed a gas-powered Servel from my
>mother's sister. Remember those? How about the Crosley Shelvador?
>
>-Wilson Gray

The Crosley Shelvador...ah yes, I remember it well.  When I was a
(non-post-doc) post-doc at MIT in 1971-72, the old fridge/ice box for
graduate student use in one of the corridors of the linguistics
quarters in the late Building 20 (can't recall if it was the D wing
or E wing) was a Crosley Shelvador, and some of the graduate students
(this was the era of Lasnik, Fiengo, Wasow, Prince, et al.) decided
that this would be our "Bourbaki", so that squibs would be submitted
as authored by Crosley Shelvador, acknowledgments in papers would
express gratitude to Crosley Shelvador, and so on.  Can't recall
(this was 33 years ago, and memories of even important events of this
kind do tend to fade over time, as Maurice Chevalier reminded us) how
far we progressed with this scam, or what became of the eponymous
Crosley himself.

larry


From db.list at PMPKN.NET  Mon Feb 28 14:51:33 2005
From: db.list at PMPKN.NET (David Bowie)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:51:33 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.095133.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

From:    "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>

: David,

: I always knew there was something I really liked about you. Now I
: know what it is: your open oh/ah distribution before /g/ is exactly
: the same as mine! Maybe I am not the last living speaker of Standard
: American English (SAE 10-W-40, the norm) after all!

Well, i am younger, so i probably don't speak it *perfectly*--i don't have
the horse-hoarse distinction, after all. Mine must be SAE 5W30.

: But, I wonder if the notorious variability you mention might not be
: explained by a word frequency/early learning appeal. Every one of
: your (and my) open oh words (hog, frog, dog, log...) is a relatively
: high-frequency and early-learned word; every ah word is a relatively
: low-frequency and later-learned word (jog, cog, blog...). In my case,
: for example, since "smog" is right in the middle (middle frequency,
: learned only a little earlier than some of the ah words), I don't
: like either pronunciation.

I remember having trouble with this one--i've finally settled on open-o.

"Jog", FWIW, is another one i had trouble with growing up, though in that
case i settled on ah.

(And yeah, i'm pretty definite about my categorization of <og> words--if i
were writing rhyming poetry, "hog" most certainly could *not* rhyme with
"cog".)

: How do you deal with some of the other historical open oh producers?
: ah before /f/ is really hard for me to get, even in late learned
: words (e.g., Hoffa). I remember a "Poff" family where I grew up, and
: I think we ah-ed them, but it hits my ear funny even today.

"Hoffa" is clearly open-o for me. Let's see: cough, trough, &c...Yep,
consistently open-o. There may be an exception out there, but i can't think
of one.



David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
    Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
    house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
    chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Feb 28 15:03:03 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:03:03 -0500
Subject: a bunch of the boys ?was/?were...
In-Reply-To: <755f3d186d35b20b10466db9e251131c@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.100303.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 1:27 AM -0500 2/28/05, Wilson Gray wrote:
>
>It's not an arguable point at all. You are correct, sir. All that one
>need do is apply the relevant prescriptive rule:
>
>1) "The group" et sim. require a singular verb phrase.
>
>2) "A group" et sim. require a plural verb phrase.
>
>-Wilson [I do but jest, of course. But (1) and (2) above are real
>prescriptive rules that I was taught in high school.]
>

Like all prescriptive rules, I fear these--or at least (2)--will end
up leaking around the edges.  If the predicate relates directly to
the group rather than its members, a singular verb sounds better to
me:

A group of Bantu languages in southern Africa {have/#has} click consonants.
A group of Bantu languages forming an enclave in eastern Nigeria is
(?are) in danger of becoming extinct/has (?have) been shown to be
closely related to a subgroup of languages in the Lake Victoria
region.

[N.B.: The "facts" in the latter sentence were just made up on the spot]

Or even more clearly in:

"A group of people always has (#have) a leader."

And then there are quasi-metalinguistic uses:

"For me, a group of objects always has/?have at least 3 members"

What's crucial is whether we're predicating something directly of the
group or of its members.

Larry


From jparish at SIUE.EDU  Mon Feb 28 15:15:09 2005
From: jparish at SIUE.EDU (Jim Parish)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:15:09 -0600
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <200502280612.j1S6C5iq003049@mx1.isg.siue.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.091509.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Wilson Gray mentions:
> Casey Lowered The Boom

Is it Casey? I remember it as Clancy: "Whenever he gets his irish up /
Clancy lowers the boom!"

Jim Parish


From preston at MSU.EDU  Mon Feb 28 15:19:29 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:19:29 -0500
Subject: rawk (1987)
In-Reply-To: <00ba01c51da5$00d89350$f0fbaa84@BOWIE>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.101929.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

David,

I belive this further confirms my speculation (if speculation can be
confirmed). You are of a generation which would have learned both
"smog" and "jog" earlier. When I was a wee lad, the air was clean and
we just ran.

dInIs



>From:    "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
>
>: David,
>
>: I always knew there was something I really liked about you. Now I
>: know what it is: your open oh/ah distribution before /g/ is exactly
>: the same as mine! Maybe I am not the last living speaker of Standard
>: American English (SAE 10-W-40, the norm) after all!
>
>Well, i am younger, so i probably don't speak it *perfectly*--i don't have
>the horse-hoarse distinction, after all. Mine must be SAE 5W30.
>
>: But, I wonder if the notorious variability you mention might not be
>: explained by a word frequency/early learning appeal. Every one of
>: your (and my) open oh words (hog, frog, dog, log...) is a relatively
>: high-frequency and early-learned word; every ah word is a relatively
>: low-frequency and later-learned word (jog, cog, blog...). In my case,
>: for example, since "smog" is right in the middle (middle frequency,
>: learned only a little earlier than some of the ah words), I don't
>: like either pronunciation.
>
>I remember having trouble with this one--i've finally settled on open-o.
>
>"Jog", FWIW, is another one i had trouble with growing up, though in that
>case i settled on ah.
>
>(And yeah, i'm pretty definite about my categorization of <og> words--if i
>were writing rhyming poetry, "hog" most certainly could *not* rhyme with
>"cog".)
>
>: How do you deal with some of the other historical open oh producers?
>: ah before /f/ is really hard for me to get, even in late learned
>: words (e.g., Hoffa). I remember a "Poff" family where I grew up, and
>: I think we ah-ed them, but it hits my ear funny even today.
>
>"Hoffa" is clearly open-o for me. Let's see: cough, trough, &c...Yep,
>consistently open-o. There may be an exception out there, but i can't think
>of one.
>
>
>
>David Bowie                                         http://pmpkn.net/lx
>     Jeanne's Two Laws of Chocolate: If there is no chocolate in the
>     house, there is too little; some must be purchased. If there is
>     chocolate in the house, there is too much; it must be consumed.


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From JMB at STRADLEY.COM  Mon Feb 28 15:39:34 2005
From: JMB at STRADLEY.COM (Baker, John)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:39:34 -0500
Subject: Spim - New Form of Spam
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.103934.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

        Spim dates back at least to an article by Eric Zorn in the Chicago Tribune on 8/5/1999:  <<The peddlers, pornographers, predators, publicists and other pests will also try to get in on the act.  We now call their e-mail "spam."  We'll call their instant messages "spIM.">>  This sounds as if he invented the term, but I'll bet there's earlier out there.

        Merriam-Webster, I see, has the related word "spam" back to 1994.  Google Groups has on 7/9/1987:  <<Our return addresses always get munged into something resembling Spam.>>  "Spam" is used as early as 8/8/1982, but most of these uses are in usernames or addresses, or are otherwise ambiguous.

        It seems that the meaning of "spam" was not immediately settled.  From a 6/1/1991 article in Compute, discussing online chat terms:  <<Spam: Information that might not be legitimate or real, as in This rumor may have a high Spam content.>>  The article has several other early uses, and I've reproduced it in full below my signature.

John Baker


<<Compute
COPYRIGHT 1991 Compute Publications International Ltd.


Saturday, June 1, 1991


Vol. 13, No. 6, ISSN: 0194-357X


Chat lines: learn the lingo. (electronic bulletin board jargon) (column)


Denny Atkin

You think you've finally mastered the operation of that intimidating metal, plastic, and silicon beast on your desk. In fact, you're confident enough using your personal software that you decide it's time to reach out and touch some other computers. After perusing the manuals, you log on to an online service for the first time. The chat line looks interesting, so you select it from the service's main menu.

Messages flow down your screen, but what are these people taking about? You try to follow the conversation, but it's filled with strange terms and indecipherable acronyms. Despite all your research and studying before you logged on, you don't seem to be able to speak the language.

The best way to approach anything with a computer is to read the manual. Most problems can be solved by a quick check of the documentation. However, you can't get a manual for your local BBS system. And the documentation provided by most online services is superficial at best. Even if the manual is thorough, it's not going to teach you online lingo.

Don't despair, though. Almost everyone online learned by trial and error. Just because you're a newbie doesn't mean everyone will be ROTFL if you flub a post. But to help you get started, here are some of the more common examples of online jargon and acronyms (STEVEX and the rest of the gang on People/Link helped fill in the gaps in my personal jargon dictionary).

Newbie: Someone new to a particular online service, BBS, or modeming in general. Newbies are often afraid to post anything publicly or ask for help, even though everyone else is usually happy to assist them.

Lurker: Someone who "lurks" on a BBS or online service without posting messages or uploading files. Actually, most users are lurkers--the vast majority of messages are posted by a few vociferous folks.

Emotions: These are ASCII graphic faces used to express emotions in online messages. There are probably hundreds of variations, but some of the most common include

:-) Smiley face, used to indicate laughter.

:-( Frowny face, used to indicate disappointment or anger.

:-) Winky face, used to indicate a joke.

:-/ Wry face, used when something's funny in a bad way.

B' Cool shades face, an example of one of many possible variations.

Post: Another word for an online message, as in Did you read Kim's post?

Nets: Networks, used to describe the commercial online services as well as Usenet and BBS networks like WWIV and FidoNet.

Lamer: Someone who only downloads files, never contributing new files to the BBS or service.

Those are just a few of the terms you'll encounter while reading the message bases. Things get really weird, though, when you enter one of the live online chat lines. Chat users have developed an elaborate shorthand system to keep typing to a minimum. Here are just some of the common abbreviations.

BCNU: Be seeing you. Used when you're about to leave a conference. It's considered rude to enter or exit a conference without saying hello or goodbye.

BRB: Be right back. If you're going to be walking away from your computer or temporarily leaving the conference, it's nice to let people know. (Also, AFK: Away from keyboard.)

BTW: By the way.

CU L8TR: See you later. <g>: Grin. Synonymous with :-).

GA: Go ahead. Used after typing a long series of lines to let people know that they can now talk without interrupting you.

LOL: Laughing out loud.

Nytol: Good night, all--not the insomnia remedy.

ReHi: A greeting used when someone leaves a conference and then comes back.

ROTFL: Rolling on the floor laughing. Used after something very funny is said. (Also, the shorter ROTF and OTF.)

RTFM: Read the freaking manual. Used when somebody asks a question that could have been easily answered by checking in the manual.

Spam: Information that might not be legitimate or real, as in This rumor may have a high Spam content.

TINAR: This is not a review. Used before a user-written review on BIX, where the users aren't allowed to post product reviews. Of course, almost everything prefaced by TINAR actually is a review.

TNX: Thanks.

TNX 1.0E6: Thanks a million.

TTYL: Talk (or Type) to you later.

There are lots of other terms and acronyms, some specific to particular online services, but this dictionary should be enough to get you started. BTW, you can contact me on GEnie and BIX as DENNYA, on CompuServe as 75500, 3602, and on People/Link as DENNY. BCNU on the nets.>>


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Mon Feb 28 15:05:11 2005
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:05:11 -0500
Subject: "You're not the boss of me" (1953)
In-Reply-To: <4221FB3D.1030702@haskins.yale.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.100511.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 11:54 AM 2/27/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>>On Sun, Feb 27, 2005 at 02:50:14AM -0500, Benjamin Zimmer wrote:
>>
>>>There's an alt.usage.english discussion going on about the expression
>>>"You're not the boss of me," popularized since 2000 by the theme song to
>>>the show _Malcolm in the Middle_, performed by They Might Be Giants.
>>>Usenet and Nexis take it back to 1993, but Proquest does better by another
>>>40 years:
>>
>>
>>Great cite.
>>
>>I think the original controversy about the dating of this expression
>>arose after Monica Lewinsky claimed that it was one of her first
>>phrases, that she would say it to her mother with her hands on her
>>hips when she was two years old. There was disbelief about this
>>claim, but now it is lent a little more credence.
>
>I don't recall that particular controversy. However, I'm considerably
>older than ML, and I do recall "you're not the boss of me" being a
>staple part of sibling arguments (right up there with "are too"--"am
>not!") in the late 50s/early 60s.
>
>--
>
>Alice Faber

Me too.  In fact, once in high school I answered the principal's command to
do something or other with just this phrase--and I got away with it!  Years
later, I wondered why I hadn't said "You're not my boss."  I had no idea
the "of me" phrase was so common; my sister said it, but I have no idea
where we picked it up.  This was in the '50s also.


From flanigan at OHIO.EDU  Mon Feb 28 15:20:05 2005
From: flanigan at OHIO.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:20:05 -0500
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050227162848.01d4b1a8@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.102005.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Is the Op Ed piece from the NY Times?  No matter, but I didn't get the
impression in the film that Eastwood's character was "translating" the
Yeats poem; he was simply reciting the original English version, since I
remember it well.  Was the book he was holding in that scene the same
Gaelic textbook (or dictionary?) he studied from earlier in the film?  I
didn't look closely, but I assumed he was now simply reading from a
collection of Yeats' poetry.  But he made one big mistake:  He said "And a
small cabin built there"--changing the original infinitive of "[I will] a
small cabin build there, of clay and wattles made" to the past
participle.  Either a slip on Clint's part, or else he thought the book he
read from had a misprint.

In any case, I suspect the Op Ed editor will get a slew (slough?) of letters.

Beverly O'Flanigan (just joshing, as we approach St. Paddy's Day)


At 04:32 PM 2/27/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>Hey Y'all
>
>Irish lingo has been nominated for an Oscar in Million Dollar Baby along
>with the phrase mo chuisle (macushla).
>
>best,
>karen ellis
>
>
>February 26, 2005
>OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
>Fighting Words
>By WES DAVIS
>
>BEFORE the bell has sounded at the start of her first title fight in Clint
>Eastwood's Oscar-nominated film "Million Dollar Baby," the scrappy,
>big-hearted boxer Maggie Fitzgerald, played by Hilary Swank, finds herself
>cheered into the ring by shouts of "Mo Cuishle," the Irish Gaelic moniker
>she's been given by her manager, Frankie Dunn, played by Mr. Eastwood.
>
>The name is a shortened form of the phrase "A chuisle mo chro?," "O, pulse
>of my heart," or as Frankie will put it more concisely, "My darling." But
>Ms. Swank's character doesn't know that yet and neither do we. All we know
>is that the words emblazoned - and some argue misspelled - on the back of
>her robe are important to a lot of people.
>
>Apparently they still are. After seeing the movie, I overheard whispered
>conversations about "Mo Cuishle." A few of the movie goers confessed that
>they hadn't even known there was an Irish language apart from English, but
>they were captivated by the sound of it. In the last few weeks some queries
>about the phrase have arisen on the Internet, and students of the language
>are coming out of the woodwork. Around Valentine's Day, in particular, many
>Web surfers were frantic to learn how to address their darlings in Irish.
>
>That sort of popular reaction makes sense. In the shorthand of the film, the
>Irish, scattered by hardship in their home country but strangely united by
>the trials that threw them apart, stand for a culture of underdogs, and the
>language that was once the common idiom in Ireland becomes the watchword of
>the movie's romantic idea of the hero.
>
>As Maggie's boxing career builds to its climax, Mr. Eastwood hinges the
>movie's emotional peaks on the longing held in the Irish language. The most
>moving of these moments occurs when Mr. Eastwood's character finally reveals
>the meaning of "Mo Cuishle," and when he translates W. B. Yeats's "Lake Isle
>of Innisfree" from the little Irish-language book he carries like a talisman
>throughout the movie.
>
>An achingly beautiful poem, "Lake Isle" expresses a yearning for escape that
>fits perfectly with the movie's hope that it may be possible to build a new
>life. For Yeats, the fantasy retreat is a rustic cabin in a "bee-loud
>glade." In the movie, it's the "little place in the cedars, somewhere
>between nowhere and goodbye," imagined by the character played by Morgan
>Freeman.
>
>Yeats's poem also reflects on the more rugged emotional landscape the film
>exposes. In "Lake Isle," as in "Million Dollar Baby," the dream of escape
>finally slams against the hard facts of real life. The dream can survive, as
>Yeats puts it, only "in the deep heart's core." In the movie, the dream is
>mined by Mr. Eastwood's character when he labors to translate the poem from
>the Gaelic for Maggie. It feels as if he's extracting a gift of hope for her
>out of the bedrock of Ireland's nearly forgotten language.
>
>There's just one hitch: Yeats didn't write his poems in Irish. He didn't
>even know the language well enough to read it.
>
>On the whole, Yeats was less than rigorous in the way he represented his own
>linguistic abilities. He was never fluent in French, for example, but he
>talked breezily about the latest French book once his friends had read it to
>him. Having once made a stab at memorizing the Hebrew alphabet, he would
>later lament having forgotten his Hebrew. But about Irish he was completely
>clear. He tried to learn it, and he failed.
>
>The language issue was a vexed one for Yeats. Like many of his countrymen,
>he was at times drawn to the image of Ireland as a nation speaking its own
>language. He actively promoted dramatic performances in Irish.
>
>But he knew that much of Ireland's literary life, and even more of its
>practical business, had been carried on in English for over a century. When
>Yeats was serving in the Senate of the newly independent Irish Free State in
>1923, he spoke against a proposal that the prayer at the start of every
>session be delivered in Irish as well as English. He protested that the
>Irish prayer was "a childish performance," since, like him, most of the
>senators didn't know the language and were unlikely to learn it.
>
>Later, when the Senate was considering a proposal to add Irish to the
>country's traffic signs and railway notices, he argued against it on similar
>grounds, fearing that forcing the language on people at a moment when they
>just wanted information would hurt the efforts of groups like the Gaelic
>League to preserve Irish and spread its use. In the same session, though, he
>called for government support of scholarship on Irish language and literature.
>
>Strange as the idea would have seemed to him, Yeats almost certainly would
>have supported the translation of his own poems into Irish. Such
>translations do now exist, so it's not impossible to imagine Mr. Eastwood's
>character wrestling an Irish translation back into the original English.
>
>But all of this is ultimately less important to the film than the effect
>"Million Dollar Baby" achieves with its use of Irish. From a cinematic point
>of view, Mr. Eastwood couldn't have done better than to adopt the endangered
>language of a culture whose history has been as dramatic as that of his
>characters. And the wonderful twist of the film's pretense of translating
>"The Lake Isle of Innisfree" from the Irish is that it seems to have done
>just what the Gaelic League and all those Senate proposals, and even the
>contrary Yeats, ultimately wanted. It has stirred up interest in the
>language itself.
>
>Wes Davis, an assistant professor of English at Yale, is editing "The Yale
>Anthology of Contemporary Irish Poetry."
>
>
>
>
><>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
>The Educational CyberPlayGround
>http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/
>
>National Children's Folksong Repository
>http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/
>
>Hot List of Schools Online and
>Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters
>http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/
>
>7 Hot Site Awards
>New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink,
>USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty
><>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>


From sod at LOUISIANA.EDU  Mon Feb 28 15:46:54 2005
From: sod at LOUISIANA.EDU (Sally O. Donlon)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 09:46:54 -0600
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <4f8f3a56a69a18d0accab737b204d7ff@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.094654.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Just a happy accident. My middle name is Overton, but in the "auld"
country my surname was O'Donlon. Both my parents are first generation
Irish-American. My mother's father came into Hoboken and my father's
father came into New Orleans.

sally donlon


From wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM  Mon Feb 28 16:03:49 2005
From: wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM (Jonathan Lighter)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:03:49 -0800
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.080349.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My comic-strip memories begin about 1954, too late for the characters mentioned,

JL

Wilson Gray <wilson.gray at RCN.COM> wrote:
---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
Sender: American Dialect Society
Poster: Wilson Gray
Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Right you are. And, again, I'm surprised by how old the song is. Does
anybody else remember the radio and comic-book character, Hop Harrigan,
his sidekick, whose name I've forgotten (Tank? But I'm probably
confusing him with Tank McNamara), and the gremlin. whose name I've
also forgotten. But I still remember the nickname that Hop gave to the
native girl: "Singsong." Which reminds me, the song title is
"Harrigan," not "Harrington." No wonder that I couldn't match the meter
with the song: "Spell it H, A, dooble R, I, G, A, N ?spells 'Harrigan'?
That's me!"

-Wilson

On Feb 28, 2005, at 7:44 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> The song with the clanging symbols is "Macnamara's Band" (1917), by
> Shamus O'Connor & John J. Stamford. Your computer will play the tune
> right here:
>
> http://www.rienzihills.com/SING/macnamarasband.htm
>
> Bing Crosby recorded it during WWII.
>
> JL
>
> Wilson Gray wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> I remember "Macushla" as one of several Irish-themed popular songs of
> my childhood. I had no idea that it was so old. Some others are:
>
> Casey Lowered The Boom
> Christmas In Killarney
> Mother Macree, i.e. Mathair Mo Chroi "Mother, My Heart"
> Derry Air (= Danny Boy)
> Harrington
>
> and a couple of others that I remember only a few words of, e.g.
> "....The drums go banging / The cymbals clanging / The horns they blaze
> away...."
>
> -Wilson Gray
>
> On Feb 27, 2005, at 5:47 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>> Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> You can start diggin' the rockin' sheet music to "Macushla," by
>> Jospehine V. Rowe & Dermot MacMurrough (1910) right here :
>>
>> http://levysheetmusic.mse.jhu.edu/cgi-bin/display.pl?
>> record=153.109a.000&pages=5
>>
>> Or if lyrics alone are your bag, check it :
>>
>> Macushla! Macushla! your sweet voice is calling,
>> Calling me softly again and again;
>> Macushla! Macushla! I hear its dear pleading,
>> My blue eyed Macushla, I hear it in vain!
>>
>> Macushla! Macushla! your white arms are reaching,
>> I feel them enfolding, caressing me still!
>> Fling them out from the darkness, my lost love Macushla!
>> Let them find me, and bind me again if they will!
>>
>> Macushla! Macushla! your red lips are saying,
>> That death is a dream and love is for aye;
>> Then awaken Macushla! Awake from your dreaming!
>> My blue eyed Macushla! awaken to
>> stay!
>>
>> (Unlikely to have been on Yeats's hit parade.)
>>
>>
>> JL
>>
>> Educational CyberPlayGround wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Educational CyberPlayGround
>> Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --------
>>
>> Hey Y'all
>>
>> Irish lingo has been nominated for an Oscar in Million Dollar Baby
>> along
>> with the phrase mo chuisle (macushla).
>>
>> best,
>> karen ellis
>>
>>
>> February 26, 2005
>> OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
>> Fighting Words
>> By WES DAVIS
>>
>> BEFORE the bell has sounded at the start of her first title fight in
>> Clint
>> Eastwood's Oscar-nominated film "Million Dollar Baby," the scrappy,
>> big-hearted boxer Maggie Fitzgerald, played by Hilary Swank, finds
>> herself
>> cheered into the ring by shouts of "Mo Cuishle," the Irish Gaelic
>> moniker
>> she's been given by her manager, Frankie Dunn, played by Mr. Eastwood.
>>
>> The name is a shortened form of the phrase "A chuisle mo chro?," "O,
>> pulse
>> of my heart," or as Frankie will put it more concisely, "My darling."
>> But
>> Ms. Swank's character doesn't know that yet and neither do we. All we
>> know
>> is that the words emblazoned - and some argue misspelled - on the back
>> of
>> her robe are important to a lot of people.
>>
>> Apparently they still are. After seeing the movie, I overheard
>> whispered
>> conversations about "Mo Cuishle." A few of the movie goers confessed
>> that
>> they hadn't even known there was an Irish language apart from English,
>> but
>> they were captivated by the sound of it. In the last few weeks some
>> queries
>> about the phrase have arisen on the Internet, and students of the
>> language
>> are coming out of the woodwork. Around Valentine's Day, in particular,
>> many
>> Web surfers were frantic to learn how to address their darlings in
>> Irish.
>>
>> That sort of popular reaction makes sense. In the shorthand of the
>> film, the
>> Irish, scattered by hardship in their home country but strangely
>> united by
>> the trials that threw them apart, stand for a culture of underdogs,
>> and the
>> language that was once the common idiom in Ireland becomes the
>> watchword of
>> the movie's romantic idea of the hero.
>>
>> As Maggie's boxing career builds to its climax, Mr. Eastwood hinges
>> the
>> movie's emotional peaks on the longing held in the Irish language. The
>> most
>> moving of these moments occurs when Mr. Eastwood's character finally
>> reveals
>> the meaning of "Mo Cuishle," and when he translates W. B. Yeats's
>> "Lake Isle
>> of Innisfree" from the little Irish-language book he carries like a
>> talisman
>> throughout the movie.
>>
>> An achingly beautiful poem, "Lake Isle" expresses a yearning for
>> escape that
>> fits perfectly with the movie's hope that it may be possible to build
>> a new
>> life. For Yeats, the fantasy retreat is a rustic cabin in a "bee-loud
>> glade." In the movie, it's the "little place in the cedars, somewhere
>> between nowhere and goodbye," imagined by the character played by
>> Morgan
>> Freeman.
>>
>> Yeats's poem also reflects on the more rugged emotional landscape the
>> film
>> exposes. In "Lake Isle," as in "Million Dollar Baby," the dream of
>> escape
>> finally slams against the hard facts of real life. The dream can
>> survive, as
>> Yeats puts it, only "in the deep heart's core." In the movie, the
>> dream is
>> mined by Mr. Eastwood's character when he labors to translate the poem
>> from
>> the Gaelic for Maggie. It feels as if he's extracting a gift of hope
>> for her
>> out of the bedrock of Ireland's nearly forgotten language.
>>
>> There's just one hitch: Yeats didn't write his poems in Irish. He
>> didn't
>> even know the language well enough to read it.
>>
>> On the whole, Yeats was less than rigorous in the way he represented
>> his own
>> linguistic abilities. He was never fluent in French, for example, but
>> he
>> talked breezily about the latest French book once his friends had read
>> it to
>> him. Having once made a stab at memorizing the Hebrew alphabet, he
>> would
>> later lament having forgotten his Hebrew. But about Irish he was
>> completely
>> clear. He tried to learn it, and he failed.
>>
>> The language issue was a vexed one for Yeats. Like many of his
>> countrymen,
>> he was at times drawn to the image of Ireland as a nation speaking its
>> own
>> language. He actively promoted dramatic performances in Irish.
>>
>> But he knew that much of Ireland's literary life, and even more of its
>> practical business, had been carried on in English for over a century.
>> When
>> Yeats was serving in the Senate of the newly independent Irish Free
>> State in
>> 1923, he spoke against a proposal that the prayer at the start of
>> every
>> session be delivered in Irish as well as English. He protested that
>> the
>> Irish prayer was "a childish performance," since, like him, most of
>> the
>> senators didn't know the language and were unlikely to learn it.
>>
>> Later, when the Senate was considering a proposal to add Irish to the
>> country's traffic signs and railway notices, he argued against it on
>> similar
>> grounds, fearing that forcing the language on people at a moment when
>> they
>> just wanted information would hurt the efforts of groups like the
>> Gaelic
>> League to preserve Irish and spread its use. In the same session,
>> though, he
>> called for government support of scholarship on Irish language and
>> literature.
>>
>> Strange as the idea would have seemed to him, Yeats almost certainly
>> would
>> have supported the translation of his own poems into Irish. Such
>> translations do now exist, so it's not impossible to imagine Mr.
>> Eastwood's
>> character wrestling an Irish translation back into the original
>> English.
>>
>> But all of this is ultimately less important to the film than the
>> effect
>> "Million Dollar Baby" achieves with its use of Irish. From a cinematic
>> point
>> of view, Mr. Eastwood couldn't have done better than to adopt the
>> endangered
>> language of a culture whose history has been as dramatic as that of
>> his
>> characters. And the wonderful twist of the film's pretense of
>> translating
>> "The Lake Isle of Innisfree" from the Irish is that it seems to have
>> done
>> just what the Gaelic League and all those Senate proposals, and even
>> the
>> contrary Yeats, ultimately wanted. It has stirred up interest in the
>> language itself.
>>
>> Wes Davis, an assistant professor of English at Yale, is editing "The
>> Yale
>> Anthology of Contemporary Irish Poetry."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
>> The Educational CyberPlayGround
>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/
>>
>> National Children's Folksong Repository
>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/
>>
>> Hot List of Schools Online and
>> Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters
>> http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/
>>
>> 7 Hot Site Awards
>> New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink,
>> USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty
>> <>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> Do you Yahoo!?
>> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
>


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From JJJRLandau at AOL.COM  Mon Feb 28 16:08:22 2005
From: JJJRLandau at AOL.COM (James A. Landau)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:08:22 EST
Subject: "Gwine"
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.110822.EST.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

"gwine" appears in Stephen Collins Foster's "Camptown Races":
     "Gwine to run all night
       Gwine to run all day..."

During the Civil War there was a song, or perhaps jingle, known as "Jine the
Cavalry".  It was, I believe, popular among Jeb Stuart's Confederate cavalry.
Note that in this case is is /oin/ rather than /oing/ that is rendered /ine/.

I have no further evidence whatsoever, but the existence of these two
phonetic items in mid-Nineteenth Century Southern (or pseudo-Southern) songs suggests
that /oin/ --> /ine/ was fairly common among Southerners (whites?  blacks?),
or perhaps was merely a common convention among Southern song-writers.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A few days ago Wilson Gray quoted the following two-liner:
     Square: Crosstown bus pass this way?
     Hipster: Doo-dah

Stephen Collins Foster is hip?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Off-topic:

Is it only in New Jersey, or is it a worldwide phenomenon amongst the
English-language press, that the Pope is said to have had a "tracheotomy" rather than
a "tracheostomy"?

The Philadelphia Inquirer recently, discussing a sex scandal in the
Pennsylvania State Police, referred in a sub-head to "the scandalized State Police".

A karaoke version of "Impossible Dream" contains the following transcription
error, which rather reverses the meaning:
       To fight for the right
       Without question or cause

An African-American seventh grader informs me that natives of sub-Saharan
Africa should be referred to not as "blacks" but as "African-Americans."

           - James A. Landau


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Feb 28 16:56:56 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:56:56 -0600
Subject: rawk (1987)
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.105656.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

In the song "Rock On" by David Essex (1973), I hear it pronounced "Rawk
on".


From pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU  Mon Feb 28 16:58:01 2005
From: pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU (Peter A. McGraw)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:58:01 -0800
Subject: ice box (was: obsolescene [was church key])
In-Reply-To: <l03130302be47a7aeaf6a@[12.107.141.65]>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.085801.0800.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

We never had the kind of ice box where an ice man came to replenish the
ice, but we always called our refrigerator an ice box.  I switched to
"fridge" only much later in life.  Like Alison, I still catch myself saying
it sometimes, and producing "fridge" often requires a pause for
"translation."

Peter Mc.

--On Sunday, February 27, 2005 12:02 PM -0500 sagehen
<sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:

>> In my day, ice was delivered by the ice man, a system well-attested in
>> various blues songs through the ''50's. There was a sign that was
>> placed in a front window to let the ice man know how many pounds of ice
>> were wanted. I learned "figidaire" first. My grandmother in Texas had a
>> General Electric frigidaire. When we moved to St. Louis, we at first
>> couldn't afford a frigidaire. So, we got an icebox.
>>
>> -Wilson Gray
>> ~~~~~~~~~~
> We, too, had an icebox, which was retired to the back porch and used as a
> cupboard when we got a monitor-top GE refrigerator.  I still hear myself
> saying "icebox" instead of "fridge," at times.  "Frigidaire" wasn't the
> the GE brand...might have been Westinghouse's (or poss. GM's?).
> The iceman continued to visit our street through most of the '30s.  The
> sign the householder put in the front window had the amounts wanted
> printed in different orientations; it was turned so that the one wanted
> was at the top.
> A. Murie



*****************************************************************
Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************


From abaragona at SPRYNET.COM  Mon Feb 28 17:03:27 2005
From: abaragona at SPRYNET.COM (Alan Baragona)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:03:27 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.120327.0500.ABARAGONA@SPRYNET.COM>

It might be worth pointing out that Alexander Pope and other 18th-century
writers rhyme words like "join" and "pine," so it's perfectly possible that
Southern Americans with British heritage would have pronounced <oi> as [ai]
and passed this pronunciation along to their slaves.

----- Original Message -----
From: "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: "Gwine"


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
>
> "gwine" appears in Stephen Collins Foster's "Camptown Races":
>      "Gwine to run all night
>        Gwine to run all day..."
>
> During the Civil War there was a song, or perhaps jingle, known as "Jine
the
> Cavalry".  It was, I believe, popular among Jeb Stuart's Confederate
cavalry.
> Note that in this case is is /oin/ rather than /oing/ that is rendered
/ine/.
>
> I have no further evidence whatsoever, but the existence of these two
> phonetic items in mid-Nineteenth Century Southern (or pseudo-Southern)
songs suggests
> that /oin/ --> /ine/ was fairly common among Southerners (whites?
blacks?),
> or perhaps was merely a common convention among Southern song-writers.
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> A few days ago Wilson Gray quoted the following two-liner:
>      Square: Crosstown bus pass this way?
>      Hipster: Doo-dah
>
> Stephen Collins Foster is hip?
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Off-topic:
>
> Is it only in New Jersey, or is it a worldwide phenomenon amongst the
> English-language press, that the Pope is said to have had a "tracheotomy"
rather than
> a "tracheostomy"?
>
> The Philadelphia Inquirer recently, discussing a sex scandal in the
> Pennsylvania State Police, referred in a sub-head to "the scandalized
State Police".
>
> A karaoke version of "Impossible Dream" contains the following
transcription
> error, which rather reverses the meaning:
>        To fight for the right
>        Without question or cause
>
> An African-American seventh grader informs me that natives of sub-Saharan
> Africa should be referred to not as "blacks" but as "African-Americans."
>
>            - James A. Landau
>


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Feb 28 17:01:59 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:01:59 -0600
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.110159.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Wilson Gray
> Subject: Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> Which reminds me, the song title is
> "Harrigan," not "Harrington." No wonder that I couldn't match
> the meter with the song: "Spell it H, A, dooble R, I, G, A, N
> ?spells 'Harrigan'? That's me!"


My level of cultural sophistication isn't as advanced; I only know the
lyrics as "G, I, double L, I, G, A, N spells Gilligan" from the TV show.

And I can't here the music to "Barber of Seville" without a mental image
of Bugs Bunny giving Elmer Fudd a haircut.


From admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM  Mon Feb 28 17:14:18 2005
From: admin at EDU-CYBERPG.COM (Educational CyberPlayGround)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:14:18 -0500
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <200502280740714.SM01620@malibu.cc.uga.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.121418.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

>Is the Op Ed piece from the NY Times?

yup

OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
Fighting Words
By WES DAVIS
Published: February 26, 2005
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/26/opinion/26davis.html

karen

>Beverly O'Flanigan (just joshing, as we approach St. Paddy's Day)
>
>At 04:32 PM 2/27/2005 -0500, you wrote:
> >Hey Y'all
> >
> >Irish lingo has been nominated for an Oscar in Million Dollar Baby along
> >with the phrase mo chuisle (macushla).
> >
> >best,
> >karen ellis
> >
> >
> >February 26, 2005
> >OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
> >Fighting Words
> >By WES DAVIS
> >
> >BEFORE the bell has sounded at the start of her first title fight in Clint
> >Eastwood's Oscar-nominated film "Million Dollar Baby," the scrappy,
> >big-hearted boxer Maggie Fitzgerald, played by Hilary Swank, finds herself
> >cheered into the ring by shouts of "Mo Cuishle," the Irish Gaelic moniker
> >she's been given by her manager, Frankie Dunn, played by Mr. Eastwood.
> >snip<

<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>
The Educational CyberPlayGround
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/

National Children's Folksong Repository
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/NCFR/

Hot List of Schools Online and
Net Happenings, K12 Newsletters, Network Newsletters
http://www.edu-cyberpg.com/Community/

7 Hot Site Awards
New York Times, USA Today , MSNBC, Earthlink,
USA Today Best Bets For Educators, Macworld Top Fifty
<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>~~~~~<>


From paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU  Mon Feb 28 17:57:09 2005
From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU (Paul Johnston)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:57:09 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.125709.0500.PAUL.JOHNSTON@WMICH.EDU>

"Gwine" (or phonemically spelled "gwain", but pronunced [gwaIn] in many
dialects) is common in the Ellis (1889) and Survey of English Dialects
(1962-69) data, with a Southwestern English distribution.  Not only did many
English Southwesterners come to settle in the American South (esp. South
Carolina and the Caribbean), but a lot of slave ships operated out of
Southwestern-speaking ports (Bristol, Southampton, Portsmouth, Plymouth).
Either way--and whether you buy the Anglicist or Creolist hypotheses for the
genesis of AAVE, and "gwine" is usual in Gullah and Caribbean Creoles (if
not in African ones)--it could have been part of the English lexifier
dialect of Creoles, AND a part of early (White) Settler English quite
easily.
Same with the merger of LOIN/LINE under the latter, which is not only well
attested in 17c/18c Standard varieties, but is found in a wide variety of
English dialects, including some Southwestern ones (and Scots also).  In
fact, quite a few AAVE and Southern features are found in SW English
generally--and this is coming from someone who mostly buys the Creolist
hypothesis, so I tend to see SW English as a lexifier/donor dialect, later
reinforcing these features on these shores.

Yours,
Paul Johnston
Western Michigan University


From flanigan at OHIOU.EDU  Mon Feb 28 18:24:17 2005
From: flanigan at OHIOU.EDU (Beverly Flanigan)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:24:17 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <003d01c51dbe$edada8a0$2da06cc6@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.132417.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

And don't forget "roil" --> "rile," which is in fact the more common
pronunciation for most of us today (except for the NY Times, which insists
on spelling it "roil").

At 12:57 PM 2/28/2005, you wrote:
>"Gwine" (or phonemically spelled "gwain", but pronunced [gwaIn] in many
>dialects) is common in the Ellis (1889) and Survey of English Dialects
>(1962-69) data, with a Southwestern English distribution.  Not only did many
>English Southwesterners come to settle in the American South (esp. South
>Carolina and the Caribbean), but a lot of slave ships operated out of
>Southwestern-speaking ports (Bristol, Southampton, Portsmouth, Plymouth).
>Either way--and whether you buy the Anglicist or Creolist hypotheses for the
>genesis of AAVE, and "gwine" is usual in Gullah and Caribbean Creoles (if
>not in African ones)--it could have been part of the English lexifier
>dialect of Creoles, AND a part of early (White) Settler English quite
>easily.
>Same with the merger of LOIN/LINE under the latter, which is not only well
>attested in 17c/18c Standard varieties, but is found in a wide variety of
>English dialects, including some Southwestern ones (and Scots also).  In
>fact, quite a few AAVE and Southern features are found in SW English
>generally--and this is coming from someone who mostly buys the Creolist
>hypothesis, so I tend to see SW English as a lexifier/donor dialect, later
>reinforcing these features on these shores.
>
>Yours,
>Paul Johnston
>Western Michigan University


From paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU  Mon Feb 28 18:44:55 2005
From: paulfrank at POST.HARVARD.EDU (Paul Frank)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:44:55 +0100
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <20050228182513.60D79D37@post.harvard.edu>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.194455.0100.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

> And don't forget "roil" --> "rile," which is in fact the more common
> pronunciation for most of us today (except for the NY Times, which
> insists on spelling it "roil").
> >Paul Johnston
> >Western Michigan University

It does?

Mr. Brus's recent drawings, made with considerable skill and including
handwritten poetic texts, hark back to a time early in the 20th century
when blasphemy and images of sexual decadence could still rile up the
bourgeoisie.
NYT, February 11, 2005

I think I've seen both roil and rile in the Times.

Paul
________________________
Paul Frank
Chinese-English translator
paulfrank at post.harvard.edu
http://languagejottings.blogspot.com


From laurence.horn at YALE.EDU  Mon Feb 28 19:26:38 2005
From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU (Laurence Horn)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:26:38 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <1109616295.5481.216210628@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.142638.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

At 7:44 PM +0100 2/28/05, Paul Frank wrote:
>  > And don't forget "roil" --> "rile," which is in fact the more common
>>  pronunciation for most of us today (except for the NY Times, which
>>  insists on spelling it "roil").
>>  >Paul Johnston
>>  >Western Michigan University
>
>It does?
>
>Mr. Brus's recent drawings, made with considerable skill and including
>handwritten poetic texts, hark back to a time early in the 20th century
>when blasphemy and images of sexual decadence could still rile up the
>bourgeoisie.
>NYT, February 11, 2005
>
>I think I've seen both roil and rile in the Times.
>
For the previous two years, using Full Text option on Nexis:

roil  134
rile    67

Confirming Paul F's point--a 2:1 ratio doesn't seem like a stylistic
"insist"ence.

larry


From preston at MSU.EDU  Mon Feb 28 19:33:59 2005
From: preston at MSU.EDU (Dennis R. Preston)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 14:33:59 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <p04320407be4920335d61@[130.132.116.203]>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.143359.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

What makes you guys think that the NYTimes doesn't think these are
two different lexical items?

dInIs



>At 7:44 PM +0100 2/28/05, Paul Frank wrote:
>>  > And don't forget "roil" --> "rile," which is in fact the more common
>>>  pronunciation for most of us today (except for the NY Times, which
>>>  insists on spelling it "roil").
>>>  >Paul Johnston
>>>  >Western Michigan University
>>
>>It does?
>>
>>Mr. Brus's recent drawings, made with considerable skill and including
>>handwritten poetic texts, hark back to a time early in the 20th century
>>when blasphemy and images of sexual decadence could still rile up the
>>bourgeoisie.
>>NYT, February 11, 2005
>>
>>I think I've seen both roil and rile in the Times.
>>
>For the previous two years, using Full Text option on Nexis:
>
>roil  134
>rile    67
>
>Confirming Paul F's point--a 2:1 ratio doesn't seem like a stylistic
>"insist"ence.
>
>larry


--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of Linguistics and Germanic, Slavic,
        Asian and African Languages
Wells Hall A-740
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48824-1027 USA
Office: (517) 353-0740
Fax: (517) 432-2736


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 21:52:08 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:52:08 -0500
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <E1D5mc4-0007am-00@mx09.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.165208.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

My memory is a bit fuzzy on this. But, now that you mention it,
"Clancy" does seem to be the correct name. I'm probably mixing up the
boom-lowerer with "Casey, Crime Photographer," also of radio days.

-Wilson Gray

On Feb 28, 2005, at 10:15 AM, Jim Parish wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Jim Parish <jparish at SIUE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Wilson Gray mentions:
>> Casey Lowered The Boom
>
> Is it Casey? I remember it as Clancy: "Whenever he gets his irish up /
> Clancy lowers the boom!"
>
> Jim Parish
>


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Mon Feb 28 22:07:26 2005
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:07:26 -0600
Subject: [was church key]/ice box
In-Reply-To: <p04320400be48dce8edae@[130.132.231.182]>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.160726.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Anyone else grow up in apartment buildings where there was an access
door from the outside direct to the icebox, so iceman didn't have to
come in the house?  Do you remember forgetting to empty the drain pan
and having water all over the kitchen floor?.
How many kids did you know who stabbed themselves with the family
icepick?  And in the summertime, the delights of a sawdust covered ice
chip from the iceman's wagon?

>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 22:05:42 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:05:42 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <E1D5nRg-0007Lw-00@mx16.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.170542.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I think that we'd be safe assuming "goin" instead of "going" as our
source for "gwine," And how about "bile" for "boil"? We probably could
come up with several more, if we put our moinds to it. ;-)

-Wilson

On Feb 28, 2005, at 11:08 AM, James A. Landau wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "James A. Landau" <JJJRLandau at AOL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> "gwine" appears in Stephen Collins Foster's "Camptown Races":
>      "Gwine to run all night
>        Gwine to run all day..."
>
> During the Civil War there was a song, or perhaps jingle, known as
> "Jine the
> Cavalry".  It was, I believe, popular among Jeb Stuart's Confederate
> cavalry.
> Note that in this case is is /oin/ rather than /oing/ that is rendered
> /ine/.
>
> I have no further evidence whatsoever, but the existence of these two
> phonetic items in mid-Nineteenth Century Southern (or pseudo-Southern)
> songs suggests
> that /oin/ --> /ine/ was fairly common among Southerners (whites?
> blacks?),
> or perhaps was merely a common convention among Southern song-writers.
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> A few days ago Wilson Gray quoted the following two-liner:
>      Square: Crosstown bus pass this way?
>      Hipster: Doo-dah
>
> Stephen Collins Foster is hip?
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Off-topic:
>
> Is it only in New Jersey, or is it a worldwide phenomenon amongst the
> English-language press, that the Pope is said to have had a
> "tracheotomy" rather than
> a "tracheostomy"?
>
> The Philadelphia Inquirer recently, discussing a sex scandal in the
> Pennsylvania State Police, referred in a sub-head to "the scandalized
> State Police".
>
> A karaoke version of "Impossible Dream" contains the following
> transcription
> error, which rather reverses the meaning:
>        To fight for the right
>        Without question or cause
>
> An African-American seventh grader informs me that natives of
> sub-Saharan
> Africa should be referred to not as "blacks" but as
> "African-Americans."
>
>            - James A. Landau
>


From paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM  Mon Feb 28 22:23:43 2005
From: paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM (paulzjoh)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:23:43 -0600
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <4f8f3a56a69a18d0accab737b204d7ff@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.162343.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Don't forget:
Who put the overalls in Mrs Murphy's  chowder.
The wearing of the green
Johnson's motorcar.
Irish Soldier Boy
Wrap the green flag around me
Rifles of the I.R.A.
Black and Tans
The Rebel Jesus
Johnnie I hardly knew you
And one my grandfather used to sing, forgotten the title but it was
about the English being the first Egyptians
Lines like "it must have been the British that built the pyramids
because the Irish were the only ones strong enough to lift the bricks'
and "it must have been the Irish that swam the river Nile, because
they're the only ones that could fight the crocodile"

>


From Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL  Mon Feb 28 22:29:19 2005
From: Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL (Mullins, Bill)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:29:19 -0600
Subject: "Gwine"
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.162919.0600.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

Bile that cabbidge down, boys
Bile that cabbidge down

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray
> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 4:06 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "Gwine"

>
> I think that we'd be safe assuming "goin" instead of "going"
> as our source for "gwine," And how about "bile" for "boil"?
> We probably could come up with several more, if we put our
> moinds to it. ;-)
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 22:29:28 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:29:28 -0500
Subject: ice box (was: obsolescene [was church key])
In-Reply-To: <E1D5oUU-00024A-00@mx15.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.172928.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

I used to wonder whether "Frigidaire" or "refigerator" was the source
of "fridge." After consulting many English-French dictionaries and
seeing many French movies wherein "refrigerator" is translated by
"frigidaire," and the fact that my mother and my grandmother *always*
used "frigidaire" and never "fridge" for any brand of refrigerator, my
vote is for the brand name as the source.

-Wilson

On Feb 28, 2005, at 11:58 AM, Peter A. McGraw wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Peter A. McGraw" <pmcgraw at LINFIELD.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: ice box (was: obsolescene [was church key])
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> We never had the kind of ice box where an ice man came to replenish the
> ice, but we always called our refrigerator an ice box.  I switched to
> "fridge" only much later in life.  Like Alison, I still catch myself
> saying
> it sometimes, and producing "fridge" often requires a pause for
> "translation."
>
> Peter Mc.
>
> --On Sunday, February 27, 2005 12:02 PM -0500 sagehen
> <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM> wrote:
>
>>> In my day, ice was delivered by the ice man, a system well-attested
>>> in
>>> various blues songs through the ''50's. There was a sign that was
>>> placed in a front window to let the ice man know how many pounds of
>>> ice
>>> were wanted. I learned "figidaire" first. My grandmother in Texas
>>> had a
>>> General Electric frigidaire. When we moved to St. Louis, we at first
>>> couldn't afford a frigidaire. So, we got an icebox.
>>>
>>> -Wilson Gray
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~
>> We, too, had an icebox, which was retired to the back porch and used
>> as a
>> cupboard when we got a monitor-top GE refrigerator.  I still hear
>> myself
>> saying "icebox" instead of "fridge," at times.  "Frigidaire" wasn't
>> the
>> the GE brand...might have been Westinghouse's (or poss. GM's?).
>> The iceman continued to visit our street through most of the '30s.
>> The
>> sign the householder put in the front window had the amounts wanted
>> printed in different orientations; it was turned so that the one
>> wanted
>> was at the top.
>> A. Murie
>
>
>
> *****************************************************************
> Peter A. McGraw       Linfield College        McMinnville, Oregon
> ******************* pmcgraw at linfield.edu ************************
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 22:59:52 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 17:59:52 -0500
Subject: [was church key]/ice box
In-Reply-To: <E1D5t1R-00027J-00@mx03.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.175952.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 28, 2005, at 5:07 PM, paulzjoh wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       paulzjoh <paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM>
> Subject:      [was church key]/ice box
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Anyone else grow up in apartment buildings where there was an access
> door from the outside direct to the icebox, so iceman didn't have to
> come in the house?  Do you remember forgetting to empty the drain pan
> and having water all over the kitchen floor?

Forgetting to empty the drain pan? Sigh! Only too well.

> How many kids did you know who stabbed themselves with the family
> icepick?

Icepick? Reminds me of an old Redd Foxx bit:

"White folk be sayin' that colored men always be carryin' knives.
That's a damn lie!"
[Wait a beat.]
"I been carryin' a icepick for the past thirty years."

>   And in the summertime, the delights of a sawdust covered ice
> chip from the iceman's wagon?

The wagon was pulled by a horse, right? In St. Louis, the iceman
covered his ice with a heavy tarp and not sawdust. That way, we knew
that the ice chips were always sterile. (Yeah. Right.)

-Wilson

>
>>
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 23:20:45 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:20:45 -0500
Subject: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
In-Reply-To: <E1D5tGo-0000oO-00@mx09.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.182045.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 28, 2005, at 5:23 PM, paulzjoh wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       paulzjoh <paulzjoh at MTNHOME.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Irish Lingo & Million Dollar Baby
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Don't forget:
> Who put the overalls in Mrs Murphy's  chowder.
> The wearing of the green

A fellow G.I. and former high-school classmate used to sing the "The
Wearing ..." under his breath as we marched off to a day's training. I
really enjoyed the pun. (During basic infantry training, you gotta grab
all the gusto you can.) As some will recall, the Army wore green and
not camo, back in the day.

-Wilson Gray

> Johnson's motorcar.
> Irish Soldier Boy
> Wrap the green flag around me
> Rifles of the I.R.A.
> Black and Tans
> The Rebel Jesus
> Johnnie I hardly knew you
> And one my grandfather used to sing, forgotten the title but it was
> about the English being the first Egyptians
> Lines like "it must have been the British that built the pyramids
> because the Irish were the only ones strong enough to lift the bricks'
> and "it must have been the Irish that swam the river Nile, because
> they're the only ones that could fight the crocodile"
>
>>
>


From wilson.gray at RCN.COM  Mon Feb 28 23:28:43 2005
From: wilson.gray at RCN.COM (Wilson Gray)
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:28:43 -0500
Subject: "Gwine"
In-Reply-To: <E1D5tOM-0005XQ-00@mx20.mrf.mail.rcn.net>
Message-ID: <MON.28.FEB.2005.182843.0500.ADSL@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>

On Feb 28, 2005, at 5:29 PM, Mullins, Bill wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Mullins, Bill" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> Subject:      Re: "Gwine"
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
> Bile that cabbidge down, boys
> Bile that cabbidge down

Lay that pistol down, babe
Lay that pistol down
Pistol-packin' mama
Lay that pistol down

"Pistol-Packin' Mama," a popular song of the '40's, younguns, appears
to be a rip-off of "Bile that Cabbidge."

-Wilson

>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society
>> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray
>> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 4:06 PM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: "Gwine"
>
>>
>> I think that we'd be safe assuming "goin" instead of "going"
>> as our source for "gwine," And how about "bile" for "boil"?
>> We probably could come up with several more, if we put our
>> moinds to it. ;-)
>>
>