ahold

[FRITZ JUENGLING]

>>> zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 06/13/05 11:30AM >>>
On Jun 13, 2005, at 10:18 AM, FRITZ JUENGLING wrote:



> I guess 'alot' and 'ahold' would be in the same question.  It just
> seems odd to me, as each set is made up of two clearly separate
> words for me.

well, different people have somewhat different grammmars.  the
question is when we should be trying to regulate uniformity, even if
just in formal standard written language.  a lot of the time, it
seems to me, we should just recognize variability, and get on with life.

I am not trying to regulate, just wanting to know what people are thinking.

> On a similar note of Sprachgefühl,

this worries me a bit.  talking about Sprachgefuehl suggests that
there is a language, English, out there, and individual people differ
as to how good a "feel" they have for it.  that's not what you say
below, but the word raises a flag for me.

I don't think it should raise a red flag.  Perhaps we have different understandings of the word 'Sprachgefühl.'  Yes, I know that the English translation is 'feeling for language,' but that definition is inadequate.  That's why I use the German word.

> the other day in several of my classes, we were discussing the use
> of tenses in English.  I used my age-old example of "Did you get
> the mail yet?"   I asked the classes whether this sentence bothers
> them.  Usually, I get about a third to half who are bothered by
> it.  One girl, in spite of all my explanations, just couldn't see
> how it could be a problem in any way and did not understand the
> conflict that this sentence creates in my head.

the use of the simple past form for perfect semantics is an extremely
widespread americanism, used naturally by a great many educated
people who are skillful writers.  me, for instance.  i would be
extremely hesitant to call it nonstandard.

Yes, I know it's widespread in the US and I do not consider it nonstandard or wrong, just different.  The 'yet' makes the preterite impossible for me in that sentence.

we all cope with differences in all sorts of features of grammar and
lexicon.  why not accommodate here?

I do.

up to this point, you seem to be saying that your student should
learn to accommodate to you, presumably by abandoning the usage that
you have trouble with.  your student could equally well insist that
you should accommodate to her, by becoming aware of her tense usage,
even if you don't use it yourself.

No, if I came across that way, it was unintentional.  I am not, nor did I in class, suggest(ing) that anyone give up any usage or accomodate to anyone else's speech.
I don't think she even thought I was telling her to change; she just didn't understand how it could be a problem for anyone.

>   I pointed out that this is an example of different Sprachgefühle
> that we have.

now *this* is formulated neutrally, essentially in terms of grammar
differences.  but what lesson were you trying to teach?

The lesson was really about German verb tenses--although the forms are the same as those in English, the uses are not exactly the same.  The English examples were to point out that different dialects of English--and speakers from the same dialect (if that's possible, now that we have pointed out a difference)--might have different usages.

Fritz
arnold (zwicky at csli.stanford.edu)