Big Apple / Manzana

Mon Apr 24 22:25:31 UTC 2006

Barry, I didn't say that "manzana principal" has anything to do with
"the Big Apple".  Given that "the Big Apple" seems to come from the
horse racing community, as you and Dr. Cohen have clearly established,
it struck me as possibly useful to explore "manzana" further in that
context.  A very small amount of research found stuff that is, at least
to me, interesting.

For some reason, as yet unknown, the racing community came up with the
phrase "the Big Apple" which was applied to New York.  I, for one, would
like to know why.  Investigation of horses named "Apple" or "Manzana" or
"Apfel" or "Pomme" certainly seems like it would be germaine to the
question. Your research certainly kills some of the theories that have
floated around.  But if there had been a horse named "Big Apple" in the
1910's or earlier, I can't help but think it is relevant.  If there was
one named "Manzana" that was called "Grande Manzana", or "Big Manzana",
that would also seem relevant. I've only found the "Manzana", not the
Big or Grande part.  They may not exist.  But it doesn't hurt to look.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society
> [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of bapopik at AOL.COM
> Sent: Monday, April 24, 2006 12:28 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Big Apple / Manzana WAS: "Always be sincere,
> even if you don't mean it" (1954) & Yahoo Answers
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       bapopik at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Re: Big Apple / Manzana WAS:  "Always be
> sincere, even if you
>               don't mean it" (1954) & Yahoo Answers
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
>
> Go read ten year's worth of coverage at the Agua Caliente
> track (Tijuana, Mexico) in the 1920s New York Morning
> Telegraph with many "Big Apples" and not a single relevant
> "Manzana." Spend a thousand hours of your life reading the tiny print.
> ...
> "Manzana principal" has nothing to do with "the Big Apple."
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mullins, Bill AMRDEC <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Sent: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 11:49:17 -0500
> Subject: Big Apple / Manzana WAS: "Always be sincere, even if
> you don't mean it" (1954) & Yahoo Answers
>
>
> Barry's rant below is the first I've heard of the "manzana"
> explanation.
> Just to add more confusion, there was a horse racing in
> Detroit in 1906 named "Manzana", and another racing in NY in
> 1928 named Manzana (both found in Dallas Morning News
> archives).  The Atlanta Constitution,
> 7/6/04 makes reference to Manzana racing in Chicago.  The
> Washington Post  Aug 1, 1908 has Manzana racing in Fort Erie;
> The Washington Post , Sep 10, 1908, has him in Montreal;
> etc., etc., with other listings of the horse at other tracks.
>  No mention was noted of the size of Manzana
> -- was he (or she, or it) a big horse?
>
> If there were in fact reference to a horse known as "Big
> Manzana" or some variant, it would seem to be relevant to the
> Big Apple question.
>
>
> > ...
> > The origin of "the Big Apple" seems to be a popular Yahoo Answers
> > question.
> > My name comes up a lot in the answers, although my website
> has never
> > been mentioned. One woman continues to promote the "Big Apple whore
> > theory," even after its removal from the web.
> > ...
> > One person (below) seems to have recently visited my
> website, but he
> > credits the 1960s "manzana principal" theory, citing John Ciardi
> > (sigh) and  Robert Hendrickson (bigger sigh) and 2004's
> Language Log
> > (sighs, throws up  hands).
> > ...
> > There are quotes like: "New York jazz musicians of the 1930s (New
> > Orleans roots!)." Listen: Cab Calloway regularly went to the track.
> > The 1934 "Big Apple"
> >  joint in Harlem was run by sportsmen. The NYC jazzmen of the 1930s
> > got "the Big  Apple" from Fitz Gerald.
> > ...
> > This is followed with: "And note that the fact that the
> term's first
> > clearly DOCUMENTED use (by Fitzgerald) does NOT show us that the
> > 'racetrack'
> > application preceded its application to the jazz scene
> (it's hard to
> > imagine how that would happen). It might well have happened
> the other
> > way round!"
> > ...
> > Yeah, it's hard to imagine that the first citations in race track
> > lingo are actually true.
> > ...
> > Thanks to Jerry Kreuscher and Language Log for believing in
> "manzana
> > principal" without a single citation anywhere. No Language
> Log update?
> > Jeez,  this never ends even when it ends.
> > ...
> > ...
> > ...
> > _http://answers.yahoo.com/question/;_ylt=ApirUnuC8vmjarJG4Tk.o
> 2cjzKIX?qid=1006
> > 042206896_
> > (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/;_ylt=ApirUnuC8vmjarJG4Tk.o
> 2cjzKIX?qid=1006042206896)
> > ...
> > _http://answers.yahoo.com/question/;_ylt=AqrIt2FzxoQg_YlUgWAss
> TEjzKIX?qid=1006
> > 041211280_
> > (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/;_ylt=AqrIt2FzxoQg_YlUgWAss
> TEjzKIX?qid=1006041211280)
> >
> > First, about the alleged bordello  background -- the page
> from which
> > everyone got this story (_http://salwen.com/apple.html_
> > (http://salwen.com/apple.html)  --The  Society for New York
> > History) never gave a source for the story and has since
> removed it! I
> > think we can dismiss that one.
> >
> > I think Barry Popik's  documentation of Fitzgerald's
> discovery of the
> > term around 1920 --now widely  accepted as THE explanation-- is an
> > important part of the answer, but notice  that it does NOT pull all
> > the pieces together, nor does it actually tell you the
> SOURCE of the
> > expression!!
> > Fitzgerald was just relating an expression he first  heard
> on a trip
> > to New Orleans.
> >
> > The New Orleans connection appears to be  absolutely critical. Note
> > that it fits in with the long recognized use of the  term
> "big apple"
> > among New York jazz musicians of the 1930s (New Orleans
> roots!)  And
> > note that the fact that the term's first clearly DOCUMENTED
> use (by
> > Fitzgerald)does NOT show us that the 'racetrack'
> application preceded
> > its application to the jazz scene (it's hard to imagine how
> that would
> > happen). It  might well have happened the other way round!
> >
> > So who coined the phrase,  and why? I believe John Ciardi
> and Robert
> > Hendrickson offer the best  explanation, one which fits in
> very well
> > with the Fitzgerald and jazz musician stories (though oddly Popik
> > tends to be dismissive of it, perhaps thinking it  somehow
> undercuts
> > his work ?!) At any rate it makes a LOT of sense.
> >
> > The  explanation is simple:
> > The word "manzana" in Spanish means either apple or  'built
> up block
> > of houses, neighborhood'. Ciardi suggests that the slang
> expression
> > 'manzana prinicipale' i.e., 'main/big apple [or apple
> orchard]' was
> > thrown around in New Orleans, a city with some old Spanish
> roots and
> > expressions, not just French.
> > (Popik seems to dislike the Spanish explanation  because of the
> > "French"
> > background of New Orleans, but in fact there was more  than one
> > cultural influence in this area).
> >
> > It's easy to see how such an  expression might be picked up
> and used
> > by folks in New Orleans to refer to some  'hot spot'
> > where the MAIN action in a field (jazz, racing, whatever)
> was to be
> > found --that was the place to be!
> >
> > "In about 1910 jazz musicians there  used it as a loose
> translation of
> > the Spanish 'manzana principal,' the main 'apple orchard,' the main
> > city block downtown, the place where all the action  is." From the
> > "Encyclopedia of Word and Phrase Origins" by Robert Hendrickson
> > (Facts on File, New York, 1997)."
> > _http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board..._
> > (http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/21/messages/1121.htm
> > l)  Source(s):
> > see all the theories discussed on
> > _http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagel..._
> > (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001232.html)
> > (for  Ciardi's view, see the Jerry Kreuscher emails)
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
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