online accent quiz

Tom Zurinskas truespel at HOTMAIL.COM
Tue Dec 5 11:29:45 UTC 2006 

What would be the benefit of giving up trying to maintain what semblence of
the alphabetic principle remains in English, Paul?

Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL4+
See truespel.com and the 4 truespel books at authorhouse.com.



>From: Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: online accent quiz
>Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:44:02 -0500
>
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Paul Johnston <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
>Subject:      Re: online accent quiz
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Tom,
>You lost your battle in 1385.  Give it up for God's sake.  You are
>not King Canute and the tide's just going to come on in, like it has
>done every day.  Take consolation in the fact that the French lost
>their battle with the alphabetic principle a century before the
>English did, and even Esperanto speakers are fated to lose it.
>Whether it's a shame or not, it's just another case of someone trying
>to do pushups with a Mack Truck on their back.
>
>Paul
>On Dec 3, 2006, at 7:35 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: online accent quiz
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ---------
> >
> > Then if linguists don't prescribe pronunciation, who does?  Every
> > dictionary
> > writer says they are descriptive pronunciation.  I have written a
> > dictionary
> > pronunciation.  I say what I'm writing is descriptive.  But then it
> > becomes
> > prescriptive for those reading it.
> >
> > What's bad about a dialect is that it subverts the alpabetic
> > principle, that
> > letters stand for sounds.  It makes English less consistent, it
> > creates
> > homonyms that cause confusion of meaning.
> >
> > If you have no criterion for dialects being good or bad, than you
> > can have
> > no opinion.  But if you value the alphabetic principle and would
> > like to
> > keep English pronunciation as consistent with it as possible, it means
> > saying "pin" for the word "pen" is not good.
> >
> > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL4+
> > See truespel.com and the 4 truespel books at authorhouse.com.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: Scot LaFaive <spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM>
> >> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >> Subject: Re: online accent quiz
> >> Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 14:39:23 -0600
> >>
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster:       Scot LaFaive <spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM>
> >> Subject:      Re: online accent quiz
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ----------
> >>
> >> What you call mispronunciation is a large part of what makes a
> >> dialect a
> >> dialect. If you say the speakers of certain dialects are
> >> mispronouncing
> >> their words, then you are saying that their dialect is wrong.
> >> Personally, I
> >> won't say that someone's natural language is wrong just because they
> >> pronounce "pen" and "pin" the same. Someone might tell me that my
> >> dialect
> >> is
> >> wrong too for extending the length of the "o" in Minnesota, but I
> >> don't
> >> think it is. It's just different. I personally think we, as
> >> linguists,
> >> should be just describing the way people speak instead of telling
> >> them they
> >> are wrong and trying to prescribe.
> >>
> >> Scot LaFaive
> >>
> >>
> >>> From: Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> >>> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >>> Subject: Re: online accent quiz
> >>> Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 19:52:19 +0000
> >>>
> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>> -----------------------
> >>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> >>> Subject:      Re: online accent quiz
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> -----------
> >>>
> >>> Why defend mispronunciations.  Sure folks in some areas say  pin
> >>> for pen.
> >>> So when they say "I've got a pin for you" you don't know what
> >>> they mean.
> >>> Is
> >>> it pin or pen?
> >>>
> >>> My friend was working with a speach recognition program.  He said
> >>> the
> >>> stupid
> >>> program recognized "bed" for "bad".  I said let me hear you say
> >>> it.  Then
> >> I
> >>> said "You are saying "bed" instead of "bad".
> >>>
> >>> If that's "knot" a "bed" homonym "eye" don't "no" "watt"t is.  :-)
> >>>
> >>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL4+
> >>> See truespel.com and the 4 truespel books at authorhouse.com.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> From: Michael H Covarrubias <mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU>
> >>>> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >>>> Subject: Re: online accent quiz
> >>>> Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 01:37:51 -0500
> >>>>
> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>> -----------------------
> >>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>> Poster:       Michael H Covarrubias <mcovarru at PURDUE.EDU>
> >>>> Subject:      Re: online accent quiz
> >>>
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> -----------
> >>>>
> >>>> Quoting Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>:
> >>>>
> >>>>> The caught/cot distinction
> >>>>> won't go because it shouldn't.
> >>>>
> >>>> This must mean that English lost the [a:]/[a] distinction
> >>>> because it
> >>> should
> >>>> have.  Was there also a requirement that led to the vowel shift?
> >>>>
> >>>>> You may not care, but there are those
> >>>>> that do.  Awe-droppers do the language
> >>>>> a disservice, create unnecessary homonyms,
> >>>>> thereby lessening intelligibility and ease
> >>>>> of learning English.
> >>>>> [...]
> >>>>
> >>>> I doubt I could make a reasonable distinction between necessary and
> >>>> unnecessary
> >>>> homonyms.
> >>>>
> >>>>> I have no clue what dInIs is.
> >>>>> SAMPA for Dennis?  Both vowels are
> >>>>> short i? This does not happen in USA.
> >>>>> You must be a Brit?
> >>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL4+
> >>>>
> >>>> Despite your apparent view of the supremacy of your dialect/
> >>>> idiolect
> >> the
> >>>> [I]
> >>>> does indeed occur as a surface form for many speakers of American
> >>> English.
> >>>> Have you never heard someone pronounce "pen" [pIn]?  It's not a
> >>>> secret.
> >>>> It's
> >>>> not rare.  It's not wrong it's not evil and it won't ruin the
> >>>> language.
> >>>>
> >>>> Michael Covarrubias
> >>>>
> >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>
> >>>>    English Language & Linguistics
> >>>>    Purdue University
> >>>>    mcovarru at purdue.edu
> >>>>
> >>>>    web.ics.purdue.edu/~mcovarru
> >>>>   <http://wishydig.blogspot.com>
> >>>>
> >>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>
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