Nobody's Perfect Dept.

Sat Dec 16 16:21:32 UTC 2006

Good points. Thanx.

Scot

>From: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
>Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 06:27:34 -0800
>
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>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>Subject:      Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Scott, phonemes _must_ create a difference in meaning only in a minimal
>pair.  Otherwise they don't have to. "Gorse" and "furze" are exact synonyms
>in English, yet except for / r /, their phonemes are entirely contrastive.
>
>   "Shit" and "shite" are also exactly synonymous, despite their
>resemblance to a classic minimum pair.  / I / and  / aI /  are still
>"phonemes of English" because of the existence of, for ex., "fit" and
>"fight."
>
>   Like many kinds of "notional unit," a "phoneme" has fuzzy edges in
>practice.
>
>   JL
>
>
>
>    LaFaive <spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>   ---------------------- Information from the mail header
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>Sender: American Dialect Society
>Poster: Scot LaFaive
>Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>This kind of scares me, but I agree that this definition for phoneme seems
>wrong. A phoneme as "the smallest contrastive notional unit of sound that
>may affect meaning in a given language" sounds wrong because of "may."
>Shouldn't a phoneme always affect meaning as opposed to an allophone? I
>don't claim to be an expert, just as learner, so maybe I'm wrong.
>
>Scot
>
>
> >From: Tom Zurinskas
> >Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
> >Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 02:33:05 +0000
> >
> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >-----------------------
> >Sender: American Dialect Society
> >Poster: Tom Zurinskas
> >Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > > For lurkers, a phoneme is the smallest contrastive notional unit of
> >sound that may affect meaning in a given language
> >
> >This is not a good definition. I've never seen one with "may" in it. That
> >also means it "may not" as well. And if it does both, why mentioin it.
> >Makes no sense.
> >
> >You should clarify what "lurker" means. As I understand it a lurker is
>one
> >who is reading emails, but has not commented as yet. It reflects nothing
> >on
> >their expertise or intent.
> >
> >Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL4+
> >See truespel.com and the 4 truespel books at authorhouse.com.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: Jonathan Lighter
> > >Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > >Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
> > >Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 09:42:28 -0800
> > >
> > >---------------------- Information from the mail header
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> > >Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> > >Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >"The smallest significant unit in language" is also misleading. Since
> > >allophones constitute morphemes, a "phone" is in a real sense smaller,
> >and
> > >"significant" too, since you can't have a spoken language without
>phones.
> > >
> > > Prof. Murfin has taught English and criticism at Yale.
> > >
> > > For lurkers, a phoneme is the smallest contrastive notional unit of
> > >sound that may affect meaning in a given language.
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > >
> > >"Arnold M. Zwicky" wrote:
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >-----------------------
> > >Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >Poster: "Arnold M. Zwicky"
> > >Subject: Re: Nobody's Perfect Dept.
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >On Dec 15, 2006, at 7:13 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
> > >
> > > >> >From a professional explication for undergraduates of cultural-
> > > >> theory terms:
> > > >>
> > > >> "Phoneme... A phoneme is the smallest significant unit in
> > > >> language; thus, both 'a" and 'an' are phonemes, but 'n' is not."
> > > >>
> > > >> --Ross C. Murfin, "Glossary of Theoretical and Critical Terms," in
> > > >> Daniel R. Schwarz, ed. _Joseph Conrad: The Secret Sharer...with
> > > >> Biographical and Historical Contexts...and Essays from Five
> > > >> Contemporary critical Perspectives_ (Boston: Bedford Books, 1997),
> > > >> p. 264.
> > > >>
> > > > Well, he got the -eme part right, anyway. Part credit.
> > >
> > >not even that. "a" and "an" are morphs, instances of a single
> > >morpheme. murfin seems to be missing the abstraction in the morpheme
> > >concept.
> > >
> > >ok, to be generous, you can read him as using "morpheme" to mean
> > >'instance of a morpheme'. so there are two morphemes in "an owl" and
> > >two in "a bird".
> > >
> > >in any case, the examples are not well chosen. the reader has to
> > >figure out (from their juxtaposition) that the "a" and "an" in
> > >question are the indefinite article and not any of the other things
> > >spelled "a" or "an" (many of which are not morphemes). note that the
> > >use of spelling is problematic. as is the fact that these morphemes
> > >are also words.
> > >
> > >there's plenty of room here for misunderstanding.
> > >
> > >arnold
> > >
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