"Ballroom brawl"

[Wilson Gray]

FWIW, back in olden times, there was an R&B song, _Roaches_, which
contained, as part of its refrain, the phrase, "Roaches o(w)n yo'
tabre [teibr]." Overcorrection of syllabic [-l] to syllabic [-r]
struck me as laughable, at the time. This is still the only instance
of it that has come to my attention.

-Wilson

On 12/18/06, Dennis R. Preston <preston at msu.edu> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Dennis R. Preston" <preston at MSU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "Ballroom brawl"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This may not be the full story (and the full story may not be known).
>
> 1) In at least most Southern r-less and l-less
> dialects, /r/ and /l/ 'deletion' leaves traces -
> compensatory lengthening of the preceding vowel
> and/or dipthongization (to schwa usually in /r/
> cases and to a higher and backer and usually
> rounded position for /l/).
>
> 2) The COT/CAUGHT merger is spreading in the
> South but is far from complete, especially among
> older generation speakers.
>
> 3) Post-vocalic /l/ most always results in a
> backing (lower F2) of a preceding vowel. If /l/
> is vocalized, is that push still there?
>
> 4) In southern speech, post vocalic /r/ imposes a
> backing and raising on low vowels, leading to
> northerners hearing a southern CAR as high and
> back as CORE.
>
> 5) Since the southern HOUSE vowel is considerably
> fronted in its onset, many southern varieties
> diphthongize the CAUGHT vowel (we're always
> looking for phonetic space for our phonemes) to
> almost the same territory as the HOUSE vowel in a
> non-fronted variety.
>
> These are all obviously related facts in Charles'
> characterization  of the BALLROOM/BARROOM
> confusion (pun?). If BARROOM has its vowel backed
> and raised, BARROOM would sound like BAUGHROOM
> (sorry John) or even BOREROOM. (Remember, many of
> us old-timey guys don't conflate the CAUGHT/COAT
> pair before /r/. But I digress.)
>
> But if the usual postvocalic /l/ influence on
> BALL is there, the vowel should stay mid and back
> (putting aside the COT/CAUGHT conflation problem
> for a moment). Does this preclude any fronting
> and diphthongizing influence on the CAUGHT vowel?
> That is, are there southern BALLS that sound like
> BOWELS? (Sorry!)
>
> What about another scenario. Since southern /l/
> is vocalized; then BALLROOM has its
> first-syllable vocalic elements (however
> realized) directly before the onset /r/ of ROOM.
> Couldn't that /r/ (almost never deleted or
> vocalized) have an influence on the preceding
> segment?
>
> Luckily, I have other projects today.
>
> dInIs
>
>
>
> >---------------------- Information from the mail
> >header -----------------------
> >Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >Poster:       Charles Doyle <cdoyle at UGA.EDU>
> >Subject:      Re: "Ballroom brawl"
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >In postvocallic "r-less" (and "l-less")
> >dialects, as well as in those dialects with
> >"cot"/"caught" homophony, the
> >"barroom"/"ballroom" distinction would diminish.
> >Such a diminution could facilitate (and
> >filicitate) the deliberately punning uses of the
> >phrase "ballroom brawl" in many of Google's 900
> >hits?
> >
> >--Charlie
> >_____________________________________________
> >
> >---- Original message ----
> >>Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 05:54:20 -0600
> >>From: Jim Parish <jparish at SIUE.EDU>
> >>Subject: "Ballroom brawl"
> >>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >>
> >>
> >>From this morning's San Diego Union-Tribune:
> >>
> >>'Said rookie tackle Marcus McNeill: 'ÄúWe would
> >>be the first finesse team with an All-Pro
> >>running back. It's a double slap to the
> >>offensive line. We already don't get a lot of
> >>the credit. You're asking for a ballroom brawl.
> >>That's what you saw out there.'Äù'
> >>
> >>(For what it's worth, the first time I saw
> >>"barroom brawl" - in a James Thurber story - I
> >>interpreted "barroom" as a sound effect.)
> >>
> >>Jim Parish
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of English
> 15C Morrill Hall
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48824
> 517-353-4736
> preston at msu.edu
>
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> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>


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-----
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