Double modal

Paul Johnston paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU
Thu Dec 28 22:37:14 UTC 2006 

An interesting thing about double modals:  they apparently violate
certain "inviolable constraints" in GB grammar (I don't know about
even more modern Chomskyan models), since you're not supposed to be
able to (or, to can) negate on the second modal, and whether it's
Tennessee, Tyrone (N Ire) or Tranent (Scotland) that's EXACTLY what
happens.

I might could do that for you  >>  I might couldn't do that for you

A might cuid dae that for ye >>  A might cuidnae dae that for ye

My ex-mother-in-law, from Southern  Lanarkshire, had a million of
these so-called "performance errors", which were, of course, totally
systematic.  I'm sure there are many more throughout our South as well.


Paul
On Dec 28, 2006, at 2:46 PM, Scot LaFaive wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Scot LaFaive <spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Double modal
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
>
> Sorry, I was just joking. There is nothing wrong with the double modal
> construction. It's just not used around here and I would say most
> Wisconsinites don't have it as part of their grammar (that's what I
> mean
> when I say "ungrammatical" for us). It's perfectly grammatical for
> others,
> such as yourself, since it is part of your grammar. I still say
> that most
> people around here get confused by double modals because they don't
> exist in
> their grammars and they are very foreign. Everyone I've talked to
> (not just
> questioned) around here seems to consider double modals semantically
> unintelligible, or at least confusing. It's just odd for us to use two
> modals like "might" and "could" together in a clause.
> Double modals are ok with me. Don't worry, I am not following in the
> footsteps Mr. Z here.
>
> Scot
>
>
>> From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIO.EDU>
>> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: Double modal
>> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:30:03 -0500
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIO.EDU>
>> Subject:      Re: Double modal
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------
>>
>> Or do they stop to think about it only because you raise the
>> issue?  I
>> don't see how it could be "unintelligible," and it's certainly not
>> "ungrammatical" to native users.  "All bad"--what does that mean???
>>
>> At 02:06 PM 12/28/2006, you wrote:
>>> I don't know. Most fellow Northerners that I ask about the double
>>> modal
>>> construction seem to stop and scratch their heads when hearing
>>> it. At
>> least
>>> around here in Wisconsin it is quite noticeable and nearly
>>> unintelligible
>>> (to us anyway). I've spent some time studying them recently and they
>> still
>>> seem ungrammatical to my internal dialect. But I figure if Lee
>>> Majors
>> uses
>>> them, they can't be all bad, can they?
>>>
>>> Scot
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIO.EDU>
>>>> Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>> Subject: Re: Double modal
>>>> Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 13:49:49 -0500
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIO.EDU>
>>>> Subject:      Re: Double modal
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ------------
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure it's that noticeable, or off-putting, to
>>>> Northerners.  A
>>>> similar "double" is the Southern double complementizer "like
>>>> that," as
>> in
>>>> "It seems like that we're in a mess in Iraq."  I made that up, but
>> Southern
>>>> Congressmen are heard using the form often--as would any normal
>> Southerner,
>>>> of course.
>>>>
>>>> At 01:19 PM 12/28/2006, you wrote:
>>>>> Is that the same species as one of Jeff Foxworthy's "You might
>>>>> be a
>>>>> redneck..." shibboleths,
>>>>>
>>>>>         _I used t' could'a'_
>>>>>
>>>>> ?
>>>>>
>>>>> -jk
>>>>>
>>>>> At 09:35 AM 12/28/2006, Scot LaFaive wrote:
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>> Poster:       Scot LaFaive <spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM>
>>>>>> Subject:      Double modal
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ----
>>>> --------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This weekend, while suffering through "Smoky Mountain Christmas"
>>>> starring
>>>>>> Lee Majors and Dolly Parton, I heard Lee Majors' character use a
>> double
>>>>>> modal ("might could"). This isn't thrilling (esp. considering
>>>>>> that at
>>>> least
>>>>>> one of writers is from the South as is Lee Majors), but it did
>>>>>> stand
>> out
>>>> a
>>>>>> little. I was surprised that a cheesy, feel-good, mass market
>>>>>> movie
>>>> would
>>>>>> use a double modal that might frighten the Northerners.
>>>>>> Just thought it was worth noting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Scot
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>>>> The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here.  Get all
>>>>>> the
>>>> scoop.
>>>>>> http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/
>>>>>>
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