Sorry, delayed reaction! Re: "oral sex"

[Thomas Paikeday]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laurence Horn" <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: "oral sex" among th e Victorians + postil(l)ion


> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: "oral sex" among th               e Victorians +
> postil(l)ion
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: <RonButters at AOL.COM>
>>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 10:47 AM
>>Subject: Re:       Re: "oral sex" among the Victorians + postil(l)ion
>>
>>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>header -----------------------
>>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>Poster:       RonButters at AOL.COM
>>>Subject:
>>>=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re:=20=A0=20=A0=20=A0=20Re:=20"oral=20sex"=20amon?
>>>              = =?ISO-8859-1?Q?g=20the=20Victorians=20+=20postil(l)ion?=
>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>In a message dated 1/11/06 10:04:46 AM, laurence.horn at YALE.EDU writes:
>>>
>>>>The nice thing about "venery"
>>>>is that it could also refer to terms specific to hunting; both
>>>>veneries come into Middle English from the same ultimate Latin source
>>>>along with "win", "venom", "venison", etc.
>>>>
>>
>>"... the same ultimate Latin source"? My resources are not so good as
>>Larry's, but I would think the ultimate source is IE wen- "to desire", one
>>"venery" being from L venari "to hunt" and the other from L Venus, -eris
>>"love".
>
> I think the proper name "Venus" was a later formation in Latin, but
> the lexical item _venus, veneris_ was certainly well established.
> When I started to check on these it was to confirm my supposition
> that the two "venery" words in English came from different sources,
> so I was surprised to find (via the AHD4 Indo-European Dictionary of
> Roots) that they're both from PIE wen- 'desire, strive for'.  Whether
> Romans felt that the Latin verb ve:na:ri: 'to hunt' was related to
> the noun _venus, -eris_ 'love' is an interesting question, but if the
> answer is negative, as you suggest, it's an interesting case of
> divergence and subsequent convergence (by Middle English, when
> "venerie" was used for both), and it would necessitate rewording my
> claim as "from the same ultimate Proto-Indo-European source by way of
> separate developments in Latin", as you suggest.   Anyone have a time
> machine handy?
>
>>Sorry to take you so far away from oral sex.
>
> That's OK, it's an ill lexicographical wind than blows no good.

SORRY, NOT LEXICOGRAPHICAL, JUST COMPARATIVE PHILOLOGY. IT'S AT LEAST GOOD
FOR FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION  [:-)]

>
>>Tom
>>www.paikeday.net
>>
>>>
>>>This allowed Sir Thomas Wyatt in the 16th century to pun extensively in
>>>his
>>>sonnet that begins;
>>>
>>>Whoso list to hunt, I know where is a hind,
>>>But as for me I can no more.
>>>The vain travail has wearied me so sore,
>>>I am of them that furthest come behind.
>>>
>>>Supposedly, the poem was written about his squashed love affair with the
>>>queen.
>

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org