slang/slant
Beverly Flanigan
flanigan at OHIO.EDU
Fri Oct 27 16:27:25 UTC 2006
If you "find it very hard to say 'slang' with a short a" (IPA /ae/), why do
you insist that m-w's notation "should be short a"? Since dictionaries
purport to represent "real" pronunciation, isn't your argument quite illogical?
Beverly Flanigan--born and bred in the USA (why do you doubt this?)
MN-25 yrs; St. Louis, MO-10 yrs; Bloomington, IN-10 yrs; Athens, OH-20 yrs
and counting.
At 08:22 AM 10/27/2006, you wrote:
>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster: "Paul A Johnston, Jr." <paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU>
>>Subject: Re: slang/slant
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>And you've just come out with a regionalism--and one that is NOT
>>traditional in American dictionaries. My students will love you for it,
>>though.
>>
>>Paul Johnston
>
>And I will love them. But really I'm just listening to m-w.com. They say
>slay-ng. I agree that that's the common pronunciation. So unfortunately
>the dictionaries are wrong.
>
>There is theory here. The brain thinks in whole sentences. The mouth goes
>from one phoneme to the next knowing what phonemes are coming. When it says
>"slang" it needs to go from the "a" to the "n" and "g". Going to "g" makes
>short a hard to say and "raises" it to long a. I find it very hard to say
>"slang" with a short a but "slant" is no problem.
>
>Basically, most everyone says "slay-ng". m-w.com says it right, but the
>notation should be short a. This goes for "ank" in most cases as well.
>
>What's your places lived history.
>
>Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL4+
>See truespel.com and the 4 truespel books at authorhouse.com.
>
>
>
>
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
>>Date: Friday, October 27, 2006 0:13 am
>>Subject: slang/slant
>>
>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------
>> > ------------
>> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster: Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
>> > Subject: slang/slant
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > ------------
>> >
>> > Indeed the words "slang" and "slant" have different vowels as
>> > spoken in
>> > m-w.com. M-w.com is correct in saying that these are typical USA
>> > pronunciations, but their notation is incorrect. The word "slang"
>> > soundslike "slay" with and "ng" (that's a long a). The word slant
>> > has a short a.
>> > This goes for many "ang" words and many "ank" words as well.
>> >
>> > Say "bay", then add "nk" for "bank". That's how m-w.com says "bank".
>> >
>> > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL4+
>> > See truespel.com and the 4 truespel books at authorhouse.com.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > >From: "Gordon, Matthew J." <GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU>
>> > >Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> > >Subject: Re: Slang poster
>> > >Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:22:38 -0500
>> > >
>> > >---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> > >-----------------------
>> > >Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > >Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J." <GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU>
>> > >Subject: Re: Slang poster
>> > >------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > -------------
>> > >
>> > >Christine Zeller published an article in Journal of English
>> > Linguistics =
>> > >in 1997 that studied short-a before /g/ in Milwaukee. I pasted
>> > the =
>> > >abstract from LLBA below. Notice she suggests it's also found in =
>> > >Minnesota.
>> > >
>> > >My sense is that this raising is not historically related to the =
>> > >Northern Cities Shift. In addition to the obvious distinction
>> > that NCS =
>> > >raising is not phonologically restricted, I think this pre-/g/
>> > raising =
>> > >tends to be phonetically different from the NCS raising which
>> > frequently =
>> > >spawns diphthongal variants. I also suspect the pre-/g/ raising
>> > is =
>> > >actually older than the NCS despite Zeller's apparent-time evidence.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >Abstract: Realizations of /ae/ before voiced velars (orthographic
>> > , , ) =
>> > >are considered. Subjects (N =3D 10 adults from around Milwaukee, =
>> > >Wisconsin, 8 related by blood or marriage to the investigator)
>> > were =
>> > >tape-recorded on semantic differential, word list, & rhyming
>> > tasks. Data =
>> > >were digitized & spectrograms were generated. Formant
>> > measurements taken =
>> > >at midpoint were plotted on F1-F2 vowel charts. Younger speakers
>> > (aged =
>> > >(less than or equal to) 40) show considerable overlap in
>> > allophones of =
>> > >/ae/ & /e/, whereas older speakers (aged (greater than or equal
>> > to) 40) =
>> > >show either no significant overlap (males) or what seems to be an =
>> > >intermediate stage in the change (females). Interviews of
>> > additional =
>> > >subjects (N =3D 17 natives of Wisconsin & Minnesota) suggest that
>> > the =
>> > >sound change pervades the region. Analogues & possible sources of
>> > the =
>> > >sound change are discussed.=20
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >-----Original Message-----
>> > >From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Beverly Flanigan
>> > >Sent: Thu 10/26/2006 7:27 PM
>> > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> > >Subject: Re: Slang poster
>> > >=20
>> > >Interesting! I'm from SW Minnesota, but I now have a niece in =
>> > >Alexandria;
>> > >I'll listen to her closely next summer (she also has a pronounced =
>> > >"Canadian
>> > >raised" 'aboot', more than anyone else in the family). This may
>> > be new
>> > >since I left the state. Your blog page is also interesting; some
>> > of the
>> > >changes sound like the Northern Cities Shift, but not only raised
>> > but =
>> > >also
>> > >tensed. But are "baggel" and "vague" really lowered to /ae/ or
>> > laxed to
>> > >/E/? I wonder what Matt thinks?
>> > >
>> > >The IPA is difficult to reproduce in e-mail--unless someone has a
>> > good>suggestion?
>> > >
>> > >Beverly
>> > >
>> > >At 05:01 PM 10/26/2006, you wrote:
>> > > >Quoting Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIO.EDU>:
>> > > >
>> > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> > > > > -----------------------
>> > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > > > > Poster: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIO.EDU>
>> > > > > Subject: Re: Slang poster
>> > > > >
>> > > > =
>> > >------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > -------=
>> > >------
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Where in Minnesota is your wife from? My entire family
>> > lives in =
>> > >Minnesota
>> > > > > (as I did for 25 years), and I've never heard [e] for [ae]
>> > before a =
>> > >voiced
>> > > > > velar stop.
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >She grew up in St Cloud.
>> > > >
>> > > >I have found it from the Twin Cities up to the ND border but
>> > most =
>> > >reliably
>> > > >in a
>> > > >central to north-western strip. In North Dakota in the =
>> > >northern/eastern
>> > > >quarter. I mentioned it in a post a little bit ago. (Sorry
>> > about the =
>> > >title.)
>> > > >
>> > > ><http://wishydig.blogspot.com/2006/09/oyah-good-fox-up-dare.html>
>> > > >
>> > > >Several residents from these areas attest the difference in the
>> > vowel =
>> > >and just
>> > > >recently a Wisconsin resident agreed with the alternation. The
>> > most =
>> > >common
>> > > >words in which I've heard it -- and on which the speakers
>> > report they =
>> > >get the
>> > > >most reaction -- are "flag" and "bag." Very different from
>> > "flack" and
>> > > >"back."
>> > > >
>> > > >I have heard a very slight diphthongization in Michigan but
>> > never the =
>> > >complete
>> > > >raising of the vowel.
>> > > >
>> > > >Question: any suggestions for using IPA symbols in these pure-text
>> > > >messages? I
>> > > >hate to see my posts coming back to me with the bracketed html
>> > code =
>> > >instead of
>> > > >the phonetic symbols I was trying to use.
>> > > >
>> > > >----------------------------------------------------------------
>> > --------=
>> > >-------
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Are the vowels in "slang" and "slant" pronounced the
>> > same in =
>> > >m-w.com?
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL4+
>> > > > > > > See truespel.com and the 4 truespel books at
>> > authorhouse.com.> > > >
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >Although the pronunciation key uses the same symbol for
>> > both, in =
>> > >the
>> > > > > >recording I
>> > > > > >hear either a slight diphthongization or a raising in "slang".
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >This is similar to the [e] for [=E6] alternation I heard in
>> > North =
>> > >Dakota and
>> > > > > >Minnesota.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >When I ask my wife to say "wagon" she says [weg?n] and when
>> > I ask =
>> > >her
>> > > > > to
>> > > > > >syllabify it she says [wej - g?n]. She claims the first
>> > vowel is
>> > > > > >identical to
>> > > > > >the vowel in "ray gun." And it's a true rhyme with "Reagan"
>> > she =
>> > >offers.
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > >I recently posted the claim:
>> > > > > >"[A]pparently before a voiced velar stop or nasal (either
>> > [g] or =
>> > >[?])
>> > > > > >she raises
>> > > > > >/=E6/ to /e/. Adding the [i]/[j] diphthongisation is
>> > probably just =
>> > >a natural
>> > > > > >effect when a coda is lost and the following onset is
>> > noticeably> > > suspended."
>> > > > > >
>> > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> > > >
>> > > > Michael Covarrubias
>> > > > Purdue University
>> > > > mcovarru at purdue.edu
>> > > > wishydig.blogspot.com
>> > > >
>> > > >USA - MI4, OH3, MD3, MI13, ND5, MI3, IN1+
>> > > >
>> > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> > > >
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