native USA English speakers say "awe" > Supremes

[Wilson Gray]

Fritz, I've just returned from a trip to Scranton/Wilkes-Barre, where
I drank a bottle or three of Yuengling in your honor. Prost!

Now, if we can just figure out how "(anti-)Semitic" came to be
pronounced as "(anti-)Semetic," even among the (pro-}Semitic.

BTW, the Czech friend who was unable to hear any distinction between
the vowel of "whipping" and that of "weeping" was named "Jiri," in
which  "r" represents the           (in)famous Czech  _r-haczek_.
After what must have been thousands of repetiitions, I wasn't able to
reproduce this sound. In fact, I couldn't even picture in my mind what
I was supposed to do with my tongue, vocal cords, and breath.

-Wilson

On 10/30/06, FRITZ JUENGLING <JUENGLING_FRITZ at salkeiz.k12.or.us> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       FRITZ JUENGLING <JUENGLING_FRITZ at SALKEIZ.K12.OR.US>
> Subject:      Re: native USA English speakers say "awe" > Supremes
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Wilson,
> I have had exactly the same experience with 'tin' and 'ten.'  Sometimes
> I've tried to distinguish the two, but it gets complicated.  I have to
> remember each word. It's really bad  when this carries over into German
> and I start hypercorrecting 'ich bin..' to 'ich ben' (which is also
> problematic because in Dutch, it is 'ben') and other similar words.
>
> Along the lines of not being able to hear certain things.  This is not
> exactly what we have bin talking about, but perhaps amusing.  The
> Supremes had a huge hit with "Stop, in the Name of Love."  If you have
> bin alive in the last 40 years,  you know the song.  Well, for decades
> I've bin singing right along with the girls "Stop, in the Name of Love,
> big boy you break my heart."    It was only a few weeks ago that my wife
> looked at me as if I had just landed from Mars and said, "It's not 'big
> boy', it's 'before'."  My daughter, who knows everything, confirmed my
> wife's claim.  Shock!! Shock!!  Now, I have heard this song 800
> bazillion times over the last 40 years and never once heard Diana say
> 'before.'  I just didn't hear it.  (BTW, I still think 'big boy' is
> 'hear-able.')
>
> Fritz 'scuse-me-while-I-kiss-this-guy Juengling
>
> >>> hwgray at GMAIL.COM 10/27/2006 1:11 PM >>>
> I may be out of step with the rest of mankind, but my own experience
> is that a merger can not be automatically undone just because you feel
> like it.
>
> For one thing, I've found it extremely difficult even to find mergers
> in my own speech. Someone has to point them out to me.
>
> As a child, I went to a Catholic elementary school in Saint Louis in
> which all of the faculty were white, but all the students were black.
> From the very first grade, I can recall teachers saying stuff like,
> "10 is pronounced 'TIN,' *not* 'tin'! See? [Writing on the blackboard]
> It's 'T-E-N,' not 'T-I-N'!" and wondering what in the world the
> teacher could possibly be going on about. Why does she think that we
> don't how to spell "10"? "T-I-N" spells "tin." not "10." We know that!
>
> Some forty or so years later, I read somewhere or other that this kind
> of general-rule-governed, i.e. E -> I / __ [+nasal], merger can be
> undone in a given person's speech only if the speaker tackles
> individually each word that fits the rule. I've tried that and, sure
> enough, it works! But it simply isn't worth the effort: Let's see,
> now. Is this "mint" as in "sprig of mint," to which the rule has
> applied vacuously, in which case, I'm cool? Or is this "mint" as in,
> "I meant to say," in which case I have to apply the ad-hoc rule, I ->
> E / __ [+nasal] in words standardly pronounced with E [+nasal],
> specific to cases like these, to reverse the effect of the general
> rule?
>
> -Wilson
>
> On 10/27/06, Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Benjamin Barrett <gogaku at IX.NETCOM.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: Can some native USA English speakers say "awe" or
> not
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Sometimes I have similar thoughts, though opposite.
> >
> > One day I was in a room of sociolinguistics student and a SL
> professor
> > and made a reference to the "bawdy" language of Shakespeare. Every
> > single person thought I meant "body" despite the fact that "body
> > language" and 'bawdy language" have different stress patterns. And
> they
> > were in MY native dialect territory of Seattle; transplants, every
> one.
> >
> > Another way I have similar thoughts is my amazement when TV
> newscasters
> > can't pronounce the "t" in tsunami. But then I realize that just like
> I
> > can't pronounce that "awe" sound, they can't say syllable initial
> "ts".
> > I imagine they would have similar trouble pronouncing the "tl" in
> Tlingit.
> >
> > Benjamin Barrett
> > a cyberbreath for language life
> > livinglanguages.wordpress.com
> >
> > Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > > Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > I believe awe-droppers as native born American English speakers can
> hear the
> > > sound "awe" and they can say the sound "awe".  They just don't like
> the
> > > sound "awe" nor forming it in their mouths when they talk.  They
> may llive
> > > in an area were "awe" is dropped and they don't use it much.
> > >
> > > I cannot believe that any native born American English speaker
> exposed to as
> > > much TV and radio as they are simply cannot form their mouths to
> say one of
> > > the main phonemes of USA English.
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
>
> --
> Everybody says, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange
> complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> -----
> Whoever has lived long enough to find out what life is knows how deep
> a debt of gratitude we owe to Adam, the first great benefactor of our
> race. He brought death into the world.
>
> --Sam Clemens
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>


--
Everybody says, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange
complaint to come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-----
Whoever has lived long enough to find out what life is knows how deep
a debt of gratitude we owe to Adam, the first great benefactor of our
race. He brought death into the world.

--Sam Clemens

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org