IMMORTAL. etc. -=- WAS Railroad cart

[Laurence Horn]

At 10:51 PM -0400 4/19/07, James C Stalker wrote:
>Your examples suggest that we need not look for an adverbial (or adverbially
>marked?) "lately."  The "lait King Henry" is exactly current usage.  In the
>1490 example, we have "swete and late" which suggests to me straight
>adjectiv(al) use, which in turn suggests that we maybe shouldn't be looking
>for syntactic shifts but semantic loss or narrowing?  But my ME
>syntactic(al) and lexical knowledge is indeed late, as is King Henry, so I
>cease speculation.
>
>JCS

My thought was not that "late" in this sense is derived not from the
adverb "lately", but as a narrowing/reanalysis of the (late)
adverbial use of "late" with the meaning of 'lately', which predates
the adjectival use of "late" meaning 'dead':

4. a. Recently, of late, lately; in recent times; not long since; but
now; not long (ago, before). Now only poet.
c1330 R. BRUNNE Chron. (1810) 149 He regnes after him, and late had e coroune.
c1340 Cursor M. 7917 (Trin.) Twey men were late in londe A pore and a
riche wononde.
1362 LANGL. P. Pl. A. III. 105 Ichaue a Kniht hette Conscience com
late from bi-onde.
1377 Ibid. B. XVI. 249, I herde seyne late Of a barne at [etc.].
c1400 Destr. Troy 4887 Noght leng sithen but late.
1470-85 MALORY Arthur XIV. viii, She asked hym yf he had ete ony mete
late. Nay madame truly I ete no mete nyghe this thre dayes.
1490 CAXTON Eneydos Prol. 1 A lytyl booke in frenshe, whiche late was
translated oute of latyn.
1513 MORE in Grafton Chron. (1568) II. 767 The great obloquy that he
was in so late before.
1530 PALSGR. 143 Naguayres, lately or late a go.
1592 SHAKES. Ven. & Ad. 1131 Their vertue lost, wherein they late exceld.

LH

>
>Laurence Horn writes:
>
>>At 9:35 PM -0400 4/19/07, James C Stalker wrote:
>>>Passed = passed over, as he in "He has passed over the River Jordan."
>>>Perhaps, passed on (to another realm, life, depending on ones beliefs).
>>>I
>>>have most typically heard "passed over" rather than "passed on," I think.
>>>
>>>Late: perhaps a shortening of "lately of this world"?
>>>
>>>JCS
>>
>>The earliest OED cites of "late" in the relevant sense (glossed as
>>'that was alive not long ago, but is not now; recently deceased')
>>suggest a different derivation but one related to what you suggest.
>>At least the second and third cites, from the 16th c.--
>>
>>1490 CAXTON Eneydos vi. 28 Her swete and late amyable husbonde.
>>a1548 HALL Chron., Hen. IV, 10b, The homecide of Thomas his uncle
>>late duke of Glocester.
>>1570 BUCHANAN Admonitioun Wks. (S.T.S.) 22 Ye murthour of ye lait King
>>Henry.
>>
>>--suggest a reanalysis from 'one who was lately [= recently]
>>duke/king/husband' from the meaning of 'recently/formerly X' with the
>>*implication* of 'no longer X' to the *meaning* of 'no longer X' and
>>thence to 'no longer X because of being dead'.  In any case, it's
>>definitely from "lately", not a reason for failing to be on time.
>>
>>LH
>>
>>>
>>>Doug Harris writes:
>>>
>>>>Similarly, why do we refer to someone who's "passed"
>>>>(passed???? -- what? Go? Did they collect their $200??)
>>>>as "late". The latter clearly sets up false hope, as
>>>>the supposedly 'late' person most assuredly isn't coming.
>>>>Unless, of course, it's a second coming... but that's
>>>>another issue altogether.
>>>>(the other) doug
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>(Why do we call people "immortal" only after they're dead?)
>>>>
>>>>m a m
>>>>
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>>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>James C. Stalker
>>>Department of English
>>>Michigan State University
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
>
>
>James C. Stalker
>Department of English
>Michigan State University
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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