Relative clauses and commas (was: Re: "certain" inThe First Noel)

[David Borowitz]

I suppose makes sense for English, but then I guess it's slightly odd that
other languages wouldn't be "logical" in this way. (And I'm suspicious when
things arise in English because of a conscious perception by speakers that
they are more "logical"; cf. English not having no double negatives :)

On 8/2/07, Scot LaFaive <spiderrmonkey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Scot LaFaive <spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Relative clauses and commas (was: Re: "certain" inThe
> First
>               Noel)
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I always assumed it came from the prosody of when speakers say some
> relative
> clauses (the non-restrictive ones at least), with a pause (eg. George
> Bush,
> who used to be a governor, ...)
>
> Scot
>
>
> >From: David Borowitz <borowitz at STANFORD.EDU>
> >Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >Subject: Relative clauses and commas (was: Re: "certain" inThe First
> Noel)
> >Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 13:41:48 -0400
> >
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> >-----------------------
> >Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >Poster:       David Borowitz <borowitz at STANFORD.EDU>
> >Subject:      Relative clauses and commas (was: Re: "certain" inThe First
> >Noel)
>
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Does anyone know the history of the use of commas to set off relative
> >clauses in English? My hunch is it has a storied history (maybe back to
> >Latin or Greek?), as some languages (e.g. Spanish) seem to have rules
> >similar to English, whereas others (e.g. Russian) have far more
> obligatory
> >commas.
> >
> >
> >On 8/2/07, Arnold M. Zwicky <zwicky at csli.stanford.edu> wrote:
> > >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
> > > Subject:      Re: "certain" inThe First Noel
> > >
> > >
>
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> >------
> > >
> > > On Aug 2, 2007, at 9:59 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
> > >
> > > > At 12:43 PM -0400 8/2/07, Mark Mandel wrote:
> > > >> Yup. It's a garden path sentence. The catch is that the obvious
> > > >> interpretation of "The first Noel", as referring to the first
> > > >> Christmas,
> > > >> doesn't work. Instead, I take it as referring to the greeting: The
> > > >> angels'
> > > >> first Christmas greeting was uttered to certain poor shepherds.
> > > >
> > > > Ah, so you and dInIs are taking it as "The first
> > > > No=EBl that the angels did say..."!  I always
> > > > assumed the parenthetical reading as you describe
> > > > it below, although as you convincingly argue this
> > > > is indeed hard to sustain semantically.
> > >
> > > well, the punctuation indicates a parenthetical.  unfortunately, the
> > > carol is old enough to have a restrictive relative ("(that) the
> > > angels did say") set off by commas, something we (mostly) don't do
> > > any more.
> > >
> > > arnold
> > >
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> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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> >
> >
> >
> >--=20
> >It is better to be quotable than to be honest.
> >     -Tom Stoppard
> >
> >Borowitz
> >
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--
It is better to be quotable than to be honest.
    -Tom Stoppard

Borowitz

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