"certain" in The First Noel

[Mark Mandel]

Read back through the thread. It wasn't archaic-stilted lyric writing when
it was written: it was current idiom BACK THEN. If you allow yourself to
supply "revealed", you might as well go join the Proto-World brigade.

<irony>If "lyric" comes from a Greek word for a musical instrument, how
widely known is the Greek meaning today?</irony>

m a m

On 8/2/07, David Donnell <David.Donnell at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Regarding this doggerel:
>
>       The first Noel,
>       The angels did say
>       was to certain poor shepherds,
>       in fields as they lay...
>
> Too much hand-wringing over mediocre lyric writing, in my opinion. I
> just see those lines as archaic-stilted lyric writing, meaning:
>
> "The first Noel, angels have told us,
> was revealed to lowly shepherds..."
>
> Or how 'bout:
>
> "The angels say the epiphany of the very first Xmas
> was something mere animal herders were hip to first!"
>
> (Etc.)
>
> DD
>
> PS: if "Noel" comes from a Latin word for "birth", how widely the
> Latin sense of "Noel" was known at that time--when the lyric was
> written?
>
> ~~~~~~
>
> >We're not the only ones who've been wondering.  I=20
> >found a number of threads on various user groups=20
> >on this, including such remarks as the following:
> >
> >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >This has always bothered me a bit...
> >
> >: : : : : : : "The first Noel, The angels did say
> >: : : : : : : was to certain poor shepherds,
> >: : : : : : : in fields as they lay..."
> >
> >: : : : : : : Does this mean 'certain shepherds'=20
> >as opposed to certain *other* shepherds? Is is an=20
> >archaic verb? Is is just the way lyrics are=20
> >sometimes?
> >
> >: : : : : : : This has been preying on my mind=20
> >for decades. Some times I wake up and night and=20
> >wonder. Many thanks in advance for any insights.
> >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >When I was a child, the song "The First Noel" had=20
> >me thinking that the word "certain" could be a=20
> >verb. The line "The first Noel the angels did say=20
> >was to certain poor shepherds in fields where=20
> >they lay" meant to me that the poor shepherds=20
> >were uncertain about something, so the angels=20
> >came to "certain" them, that is, to make them=20
> >certain.
> >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >I used to believe "certain" (used as a verb) was=20
> >an uber-secret religious ritual performed on=20
> >reluctant shepherds. I knew this because it said=20
> >so in the song. "The First Noel the Angels did=20
> >say, was to certain poor shepherds in field where=20
> >they lay."
> >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >
> >I was going to suggest another analysis of that=20
> >line, taking "was to certain poor shepherds" to=20
> >represent an old dative-possessive construction.=20
> >This allows us the retention of the parenthetical=20
> >analysis of "the angels did say", viz.
> >
> >According to what the angels said, the first No=EBl=20
> >belonged to certain poor shepherds....
> >
> >Unlikely (espcially if "No(w)el(l)" really was an=20
> >interjection, hence forcing a mention rather than=20
> >use interpretation), but perhaps not impossible.
> >
> >LH
> >
> >P.S.  I love the "Oh well, oh well" version.
> >
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

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