who -> that [Was: Seeking a Polish female that ...]

[Laurence Horn]

At 3:53 PM -0400 8/7/07, Wilson Gray wrote:
>If you're about ten years older than I am and from Lubbock, TX, "wh-
>that" sentences are still possible. The guy sounded like a cowboy
>extra in a '40's horse opera, eg. "... who that I was a-tellin' y'all
>about." Since ten years older than I am would place him in his 80's,
>there may not be many such speakers left.
>
>-Wilson

I remember it being mentioned that there were some such exotic
speakers still around, but I couldn't recall where.  Thanks for the
pointer!

LH

>
>On 8/7/07, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu> wrote:
>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>-----------------------
>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>  Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
>>  Subject:      Re: who -> that [Was: Seeking a Polish female that ...]
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  At 2:44 PM -0400 8/7/07, Wilson Gray wrote:
>>  >What messes with my mind is that something that wasn't a problem when
>>  >I was in an all-black elementary school in the '40's and in a 99.44%
>>  >white high school in the the '50's, it never occurred to anyone in
>>  >either school to teach us that "that" couldn't be used with living
>>  >beings as well as with inanimate objects in restrictive relative
>>  >clauses.
>>  >
>>  >It seems as though someone in the '80's or whenever, with nothing
>>  >better to do, suddenly decided, out of the clear, blue sky, that he
>>  >didn't like this use of "that" with living beings and decided to make
>>  >up a rule saying that and to start teaching it.
>>  >
>>  >-Wilson
>>
>>  I wonder if it would help convince such folks if we were to make the
>>  case that the "that" in such cases isn't really a relative pronoun at
>>  all but the complementizer, and so doesn't actually refer to anyone
>>  or anything.  On this view, "the man that came in" is just "the man
>>  who that came in" with the "who" deleted, while "the book which I
>>  read" is from "the book which that I read" with the "which" deleted,
>>  or suppressed, or whatever.  (As I recall, the evidence for this
>>  claim comes from earlier versions of English in which the "wh- that"
>>  sequences were possible.)
>>
>>  Naaah.
>>
>>  LH
>>
>>  >.
>>  >
>>  >On 8/7/07, Arnold M. Zwicky <zwicky at csli.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>  >>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>  >>-----------------------
>>  >>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>  >>  Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
>>  >>  Subject:      Re: who -> that [Was: Seeking a Polish female that ...]
>>  >>
>>  >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>  On Aug 7, 2007, at 6:44 AM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>>  >>
>>  >>  > Is my impression correct that there is an increasing tendency to
>>  >>  > refer to people using "that"?
>>  >>
>>  >>  MWDEU (1989:895): It may be that some carryover from the 18th-century
>>  >>  general dislike of _that_ has produced the apparently common, yet
>>  >>  unfounded, notion that _that_ may be used to refer only to things
>>  >>  [with references to Bernstein, Simon, Safire, and others either
>>  >>  reporting or expressing this dislike]
>>  >>
>>  >>  Garner's Modern American Usage (2003:836): _That_, of course, is
>>  >>  permissible when referring to humans... Editors tend, however, to
>>  >>  prefer [_who_]
>>  >>
>>  >>  .....
>>  >>
>>  >>  the observation is that _that_ has been in use for reference to
>>  >>  humans, in writing as well as speech, in formal as well as informal
>>  >>  english, for about two hundred years.  (until the 18th century it was
>>  >>  apparently the norm.)  now, whether _that_ is gaining on _who_ (and,
>>  >>  if so, to what degrees for which speakers/writers and in which
>>  >>  contexts) i don't know, though i'd imagine that the question has been
>>  >>  studied.  i'd start by looking at the Longman grammar.
>  > >>
>>  >>  arnold
>>  >>
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>>  >
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>>  >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
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>>  >                                               -Sam'l Clemens
>>  >
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>
>
>--
>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>-----
>                                               -Sam'l Clemens
>
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