Want I should?
Montgomery Michael
ullans at YAHOO.COM
Mon Aug 13 19:42:55 UTC 2007
Beverly, you're mighty right with regard to my
implication. If this construction does have a basis
in German (and probably anyway), I'd expect it to show
up elsewhere in the U.S. hinterland, since millions of
German speakers emigrated to America in the 18th/19th
centuries, largely to the interior. My original point
is only a hypothesis, though. Surely we have someone
on the list whose German (and maybe its varieties) is
good enough to enlighten us what the underlying
structure might have been. I don't doubt that the
WANT I SHOULD construction probably has a Yiddish
basis for megalopolitan speakers.
I spent a dozen years culling a vast range of
material, both written and oral, from the TN/NC
mountain area, so in so long with my radar on, it
should not be surprising that some syntactic patterns
were detected that are still buzzing below most of our
screens. I'd probably not have included it in the
dictionary if it had occurred only once, but there it
was, half a century apart and from two different
(albeit written) sources.
The "want I should" construction is not native to me,
but there are others I've noticed (and sometimes
studied) in my speech after either hearing myself on
tape or having someone misunderstand me.
An example of the first type is present perfect + AGO,
as in "That's been many years ago." In 1977 if
someone had asked me directly what verb form I used
with AGO, I would no doubt have said the simple past
("That was many years ago"), yet when I audited
recordings I made with local folks in East Tennessee,
there I was using the present perfect. Was it
accommodation? Probably, in part. But I've noticed
myself using it at other times over the past thirty
years, now that I'm alert to it. And now that I am, I
hear speakers in southern Appalachia who use the
present perfect with AGO universally. As a result of
all this, I put the pattern in my dictionary, s.v.
both AGO and HAVE.
Now, AGO with the present perfect may be a common
colloquialism in this country, and if so, I'd like to
know this (when I google for "been many years ago," I
do get 10,700 hits). But I've never seen or heard any
discussion about it, and since syntactic patterns too
rarely get entered in dictionaries, especially
historical dictionaries, I couldn't find anything that
I could connect my observations to. It's not in DARE
sv.v. AGO.
An example of the second type of phenomenon is what I
have termed "alternative ONE." Some dozen years ago I
told a class of students at the end of the hour how
they could submit their assignment to me: "You can put
it in my mailbox or under my door one." Most of the
students were of course South Carolinians, and they
understood this statement without blinking and filed
out of the room. However, a young man from
Connecticut lingered. After a moment or two he said,
"Doctor Montgomery, I'm not sure I understand. Where
is your door one?" I blanked, then thought of the TV
gameshow Let's Make a Deal, and finally realized that
a construction I'd used and heard all my life was
unintelligible to some other native speakers of
American English. I've written about alternative ONE
in an essay in Beth Simon and Tom Murray's recent
collection on the American Midland, and I am pleased
to say that DARE has a paragraph on it in volume 3,
s.v. ONE.
I am only recently re-connected to this list, so these
patterns might could have been discussed, dissected,
and diagnosed. If so, I'd like to be informed.
Michael
--- Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIO.EDU> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIO.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Want I should?
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I suspect Michael didn't mean to imply that
> German-heritage speakers only
> in Appalachia used the construction, nor that it
> might not have Yiddish
> origins in other regions--only that _when_ it's used
> in Appalachia, it
> might be because of German migration into the area.
> The German requires an
> embedded 'that' clause, rather than the English
> infinitive: Willst du dass
> ich soll .... (or close). Chris?
>
> Beverly
>
> At 10:30 AM 8/13/2007, you wrote:
> >---------------------- Information from the mail
> header
> >-----------------------
> >Sender: American Dialect Society
> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >Poster: Scot LaFaive
> <spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM>
> >Subject: Re: Want I should?
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Oh yeah, and the only form I've heard it in is "You
> want I should..." in a
> >question.
> >
> >Scot
> >
> >
> > >From: Scot LaFaive <spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > >Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > >Subject: Re: Want I should?
> > >Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:26:38 -0500
> > >
> > >---------------------- Information from the mail
> header
> > >-----------------------
> > >Sender: American Dialect Society
> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >Poster: Scot LaFaive
> <spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > >Subject: Re: Want I should?
> >
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ------
> > >
> > >So it's considered Appalachian? Interesting.
> > >Another interesting tid bit is that the only
> times I've ever heard it have
> > >been on TV by various characters; I heard it on
> Medium the other day and I
> > >recall someone on Leave It To Beaver saying it.
> Could it be both writers
> > >were Appalachian? I would guess it is as
> localized as it might once have
> > >been.
> > >BTW, I see from the internets that a lot of
> people associate this with
> > >Yiddish.
> > >
> > >Scot
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: Montgomery Michael <ullans at YAHOO.COM>
> > > >Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > >Subject: Re: Want I should?
> > > >Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:49:16 -0700
> > > >
> > > >---------------------- Information from the
> mail header
> > > >-----------------------
> > > >Sender: American Dialect Society
> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > >Poster: Montgomery Michael
> <ullans at YAHOO.COM>
> > > >Subject: Re: Want I should?
> > >
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> > > >
> > > >The excerpt below is from my _Dictionary of
> Smoky
> > > >Mountain English_ (Univ. of Tennessee Press,
> 2004). A
> > > >Yiddish source is out of the question, but a
> German
> > > >one is much more tantalizing. Quite a few more
> people
> > > >settled in southern Appalachia whose own
> language or
> > > >ancestral language was German than is usually
> > > >recognized.
> > > >
> > > >Michael
> > > >
> > > >want verb
> > > > 1 with ellipsis of following that, with a
> dependent
> > > >clause as object of the verb.
> > > > 1928 Mathes (in 1952 Mathes Tall Tales 43)
> Child, I
> > > >want ye should think about it all yer days!
> 1931
> > > >Goodrich Mt Homespun 49 They want you should
> use the
> > > >hickory on some of them rough boys. ibid. 54
> Maw
> > > >wants you should go with her tomorrow to her
> aunts' in
> > > >Tennessy. 1975 Chalmers Better 59 Pink's
> wife's been
> > > >took bad, and Doc wants you should come and
> he'p him.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--- Scot LaFaive <spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > ---------------------- Information from the
> mail
> > > > > header -----------------------
> > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > > > <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > Poster: Scot LaFaive
> > > > > <spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > > > > Subject: Want I should?
> > > > >
> > >
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --------
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm curious where or in what group "want I
> should"
> > > > > is spoken and from, as in
> > > > > "You want I should come over?" I found the
> link
> > > > > below that says it's from
> > > > > Yiddish. (BTW, is this "Ben" on the
> ads-list?)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
>
>http://positiveanymore.blogspot.com/2006/03/you-want-i-should-grow-bear
> > d.html
> > > > >
> > > > > Scot
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
>
>_________________________________________________________________
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