Want I should?
Wilson Gray
hwgray at GMAIL.COM
Tue Aug 14 01:06:25 UTC 2007
"Alternative ONE" sounds perfectly ordinary to me as a feature of
Black English, with one trivial distinction. I'd write it as
"You can put it in my mailbox or under my door, one."
(In this case, dInIs, I really do hear it and speak it with comma
intonation. It's not motivated by something that I learned in a
high-school course on English grammar.)
-Wilson
On 8/13/07, Montgomery Michael <ullans at yahoo.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Montgomery Michael <ullans at YAHOO.COM>
> Subject: Re: Want I should?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Beverly, you're mighty right with regard to my
> implication. If this construction does have a basis
> in German (and probably anyway), I'd expect it to show
> up elsewhere in the U.S. hinterland, since millions of
> German speakers emigrated to America in the 18th/19th
> centuries, largely to the interior. My original point
> is only a hypothesis, though. Surely we have someone
> on the list whose German (and maybe its varieties) is
> good enough to enlighten us what the underlying
> structure might have been. I don't doubt that the
> WANT I SHOULD construction probably has a Yiddish
> basis for megalopolitan speakers.
>
> I spent a dozen years culling a vast range of
> material, both written and oral, from the TN/NC
> mountain area, so in so long with my radar on, it
> should not be surprising that some syntactic patterns
> were detected that are still buzzing below most of our
> screens. I'd probably not have included it in the
> dictionary if it had occurred only once, but there it
> was, half a century apart and from two different
> (albeit written) sources.
>
> The "want I should" construction is not native to me,
> but there are others I've noticed (and sometimes
> studied) in my speech after either hearing myself on
> tape or having someone misunderstand me.
>
> An example of the first type is present perfect + AGO,
> as in "That's been many years ago." In 1977 if
> someone had asked me directly what verb form I used
> with AGO, I would no doubt have said the simple past
> ("That was many years ago"), yet when I audited
> recordings I made with local folks in East Tennessee,
> there I was using the present perfect. Was it
> accommodation? Probably, in part. But I've noticed
> myself using it at other times over the past thirty
> years, now that I'm alert to it. And now that I am, I
> hear speakers in southern Appalachia who use the
> present perfect with AGO universally. As a result of
> all this, I put the pattern in my dictionary, s.v.
> both AGO and HAVE.
>
> Now, AGO with the present perfect may be a common
> colloquialism in this country, and if so, I'd like to
> know this (when I google for "been many years ago," I
> do get 10,700 hits). But I've never seen or heard any
> discussion about it, and since syntactic patterns too
> rarely get entered in dictionaries, especially
> historical dictionaries, I couldn't find anything that
> I could connect my observations to. It's not in DARE
> sv.v. AGO.
>
> An example of the second type of phenomenon is what I
> have termed "alternative ONE." Some dozen years ago I
> told a class of students at the end of the hour how
> they could submit their assignment to me: "You can put
> it in my mailbox or under my door one." Most of the
> students were of course South Carolinians, and they
> understood this statement without blinking and filed
> out of the room. However, a young man from
> Connecticut lingered. After a moment or two he said,
> "Doctor Montgomery, I'm not sure I understand. Where
> is your door one?" I blanked, then thought of the TV
> gameshow Let's Make a Deal, and finally realized that
> a construction I'd used and heard all my life was
> unintelligible to some other native speakers of
> American English. I've written about alternative ONE
> in an essay in Beth Simon and Tom Murray's recent
> collection on the American Midland, and I am pleased
> to say that DARE has a paragraph on it in volume 3,
> s.v. ONE.
>
> I am only recently re-connected to this list, so these
> patterns might could have been discussed, dissected,
> and diagnosed. If so, I'd like to be informed.
>
> Michael
>
>
> --- Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIO.EDU> wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIO.EDU>
> > Subject: Re: Want I should?
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I suspect Michael didn't mean to imply that
> > German-heritage speakers only
> > in Appalachia used the construction, nor that it
> > might not have Yiddish
> > origins in other regions--only that _when_ it's used
> > in Appalachia, it
> > might be because of German migration into the area.
> > The German requires an
> > embedded 'that' clause, rather than the English
> > infinitive: Willst du dass
> > ich soll .... (or close). Chris?
> >
> > Beverly
> >
> > At 10:30 AM 8/13/2007, you wrote:
> > >---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header
> > >-----------------------
> > >Sender: American Dialect Society
> > <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >Poster: Scot LaFaive
> > <spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > >Subject: Re: Want I should?
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >Oh yeah, and the only form I've heard it in is "You
> > want I should..." in a
> > >question.
> > >
> > >Scot
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: Scot LaFaive <spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > > >Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> > <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > >Subject: Re: Want I should?
> > > >Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2007 09:26:38 -0500
> > > >
> > > >---------------------- Information from the mail
> > header
> > > >-----------------------
> > > >Sender: American Dialect Society
> > <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > >Poster: Scot LaFaive
> > <spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > > >Subject: Re: Want I should?
> > >
> >
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ------
> > > >
> > > >So it's considered Appalachian? Interesting.
> > > >Another interesting tid bit is that the only
> > times I've ever heard it have
> > > >been on TV by various characters; I heard it on
> > Medium the other day and I
> > > >recall someone on Leave It To Beaver saying it.
> > Could it be both writers
> > > >were Appalachian? I would guess it is as
> > localized as it might once have
> > > >been.
> > > >BTW, I see from the internets that a lot of
> > people associate this with
> > > >Yiddish.
> > > >
> > > >Scot
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: Montgomery Michael <ullans at YAHOO.COM>
> > > > >Reply-To: American Dialect Society
> > <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > > >Subject: Re: Want I should?
> > > > >Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 17:49:16 -0700
> > > > >
> > > > >---------------------- Information from the
> > mail header
> > > > >-----------------------
> > > > >Sender: American Dialect Society
> > <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > >Poster: Montgomery Michael
> > <ullans at YAHOO.COM>
> > > > >Subject: Re: Want I should?
> > > >
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --------
> > > > >
> > > > >The excerpt below is from my _Dictionary of
> > Smoky
> > > > >Mountain English_ (Univ. of Tennessee Press,
> > 2004). A
> > > > >Yiddish source is out of the question, but a
> > German
> > > > >one is much more tantalizing. Quite a few more
> > people
> > > > >settled in southern Appalachia whose own
> > language or
> > > > >ancestral language was German than is usually
> > > > >recognized.
> > > > >
> > > > >Michael
> > > > >
> > > > >want verb
> > > > > 1 with ellipsis of following that, with a
> > dependent
> > > > >clause as object of the verb.
> > > > > 1928 Mathes (in 1952 Mathes Tall Tales 43)
> > Child, I
> > > > >want ye should think about it all yer days!
> > 1931
> > > > >Goodrich Mt Homespun 49 They want you should
> > use the
> > > > >hickory on some of them rough boys. ibid. 54
> > Maw
> > > > >wants you should go with her tomorrow to her
> > aunts' in
> > > > >Tennessy. 1975 Chalmers Better 59 Pink's
> > wife's been
> > > > >took bad, and Doc wants you should come and
> > he'p him.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >--- Scot LaFaive <spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > ---------------------- Information from the
> > mail
> > > > > > header -----------------------
> > > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > > > > <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > > > Poster: Scot LaFaive
> > > > > > <spiderrmonkey at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > > > > > Subject: Want I should?
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --------
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm curious where or in what group "want I
> > should"
> > > > > > is spoken and from, as in
> > > > > > "You want I should come over?" I found the
> > link
> > > > > > below that says it's from
> > > > > > Yiddish. (BTW, is this "Ben" on the
> > ads-list?)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
> >http://positiveanymore.blogspot.com/2006/03/you-want-i-should-grow-bear
> > > d.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Scot
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
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