Want I should?

[Arnold M. Zwicky]

On Aug 13, 2007, at 6:23 PM, Doug Wilson wrote:

>> [AMZ] by the way, "want" plus finite clause (rather than infinitival)
>> complement could trace back to a number of different substrate
>> languages, not just germanic ones, since 'want'-verb plus finite
>> clause is very widespread.
>
> But in this case one would like to account for the "should", I
> suppose. One might speculate that it is a 'naive translation' of
> German "sollen" (or some Germanic-language equivalent). In what
> likely non-Germanic languages would the equivalent clause naturally
> include a word which would likely be 'translated' as "should"? [Could
> be many of them for all I know ....]

the "should" is easy to account for, and doesn't have to be a
translation of a modal verb (or mood inflection, like  the
subjunctive) in some other language.  the "should" is simply the
english modal verb that comes closest to expressing the modality of
the accusative + infinitive with "want" ("I want you to go").

> However, I wonder why the construction should be assumed to be
> adopted from a foreign language at all. Maybe it's just old-fashioned
> or currently-unfashionable English, or dialectal English from the old
> days. English is Germanic, right?

this occurred to me yesterday.  thinking, finally, to look at the
OED, i found:
To desire (a person) to (do something). Also, U.S., with clause as
object.

1845 S. JUDD Margaret I. ix, I want you to be a good boy. 1852 H. C.
KIMBALL in Brigham Young's Jrnl. Discourses (1859) VI. 256 If this is
your determination, I want you should manifest it by raising your
right hands. 1903 C. L. BURNHAM Jewel ii, Mr. Evringham wants you
should saddle his horse and bring her round. 1918 Oxford Mag. 21 June
343/1 Most of them do not make it quite plain what they want the
teacher [of the Classics] to do.

.....

there are two clausal object cites here, both with "should" (which
makes sense semantically), both without "that" (which is not
surprising, since zero-marking for clausal objects is normal in
spoken english), and both from the U.S.  the OED doesn't tell us
about the regional/class/ethnic/etc. backgrounds of the speakers, of
course.

in any case, the construction could be home-grown.

but there are still the reported connections between the construction
and specific substrate languages.    if these turn out to be genuine
(DARE, we want you!), then it's possible that we have another case of
a feature that's characteristic of certain varieties (in the sense
that it occurs a lot there) but also occurs elsewhere (either by
independent development or by diffusion from varieties where it's
characterstic, or of course both).

> I find a number of published examples of "want [that] I should" etc.,
> going back quite a ways. E.g., at Google Books, from 1794 [looks
> genuine too!]: <<But in this I will say no more, as you do not want I
> should reason, but merely state facts.>>

if the date is right, this antedates the OED entry by over 50 years.

arnold

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