"Whole Nine Yards" and Occam's Razor, etc.

[David A. Daniel]

I have a somewhat different theory up on which I might even try to follow.
;-) If you look at that 1855 judge/shirt joke, it really isn't funny unless
the "whole nine yards" phrase is recognizable from another context. In other
words, I can imagine that at the telling of the joke the voice is raised
during the pronouncing of "the whole nine yards" as the point of the joke is
to make ironic reference to the phrase. That would say to me there was at
that time a phrase "the whole nine yards" in common use that was being/had
been used in another context and that the joke makes fun of that expression.
Perhaps some judge or politician had used the expression that then passed
into ironic use. If someone 150 years from now came across a Jay Leno joke
the punch line of which was "Mission Accomplished!", and if that person did
not know Leno was making fun of a presidential quote that had come in for
considerable public derision, he would wonder what the joke was about. I
think it may be worth poking around in records from that era to see if the
phrase was in fact known and to what it referred. Also, it would not
particularly bother me if "the whole nine yards" was popular for some time
for some reason in the mid-nineteenth century then sort of petered out, and
then having it resurface 100 years later. Depending on the connections, that
would still put the origin of the phrase back in the 19th century, if you
see what I mean.
DAD

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
Jonathan Lighter
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 5:58 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: "Whole Nine Yards" and Occam's Razor, etc.


A general observation about Occam's Razor.

  It is not a guarantor of true results. It is merely a good way to proceed
so as to reduce the likelihood of unsound conclusions.

  JL

Stephen Goranson <goranson at DUKE.EDU> wrote:

As for the 1855 cite, I agree that it is, exceedingly probably, a
coincidental
collocation. The 1855 cite is in a joke, yet many of the early idiomatic
uses
of the phrase concern major endeavors, big deals, rather than jokes. The
1855
cite is plainly in linear measure; many of the early idiomatic uses are
plainly
not using linear measure. (And the _1955_ Naval Air Station claimed--50
years
later--memory does not correspond with Stratton's 1973 quote, which is in
non-linear measure, item, item, item form.)

The 1942 cite is different: not a joke but a major undertaking; not linear
yards
but shipyards. The 1942 cite is specifically about defense contracting and
congressional involvement; many early idiomatic uses are in defense
contracting
or in congressional hearings, or both.

As for Occam's razor, two of the present options are that (a) the 1942
Liberty
ship remarkable production at nine new yards, one of the main factors in the
outcome of World War II, plays a role in the origin or (b) some as-yet
unknown,
unattested cause in or before 1964.
Which of these two options would Occam have considered to be the case of
unnecessarily multiplying entities?

The person to whom I most recently mentioned Admiral Land's testimony is an
emeritus professor of history, military history, especially World War II
history, including defense contracting. (Years ago he asked reference
librarians about this particular phrase.) His response, inter alia,
"congratulations."

Plausibility could be well and openly assessed without
unnecessarily-multiplied
a priori assumptions and too-hasty dismissals.

Stephen Goranson
http://www.duke.edu/~goranson

Quoting \"Shapiro, Fred\" :

> I think Barry\'s take on this issue is praiseworthy, serving as
> demonstration that one can discover a coincidental foreshadowing of a
> term and place it in proper perspective rather than concocting an
> improbable theory of the coincidental foreshadowing exterting a
> causal influence on usage decades later while leaving no trace in the
> intervening time-period in the extensive databases we now have
> available. Because one CAN construct an etymological theory does not
> mean one SHOULD push it way beyond its plausibility. Also, I think
> one needs to have a sense of the rhythms and logic of etymological
> innovation and diffusion and the applicability of Occam\'s razor to
> etymological explanations.
>

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