Help Needed Please

Thu Feb 22 15:23:32 UTC 2007

I have a policy against answering 'fishing' e-mails from undergraduates
like this, so was a little surprised by others' readiness to answer the
query.

I call it a 'fishing e-mail' because it had no particular specific
question, and it is a means to not do what a student is supposed to do in
this situation--use a bibliographic database (and/or the course reading
list) to find previous work on the topic.

I'm not trying to be a meanie, but answering such messages means that we:

(a) take time away from the students at our own institutions who are
actually paying for us to teach them (and arguably doing or undermining the
work of that student's own instructor),
(b) do the student's basic bibliographic research for them--which
presumably was part of their assignment,
(c) can never be sure that the help given to these students is properly
acknowledged in their work, and thus could be 'colluding' with the student
or allowing ourselves to be plagiarized.

Now, if the student has  a _specific_ question/request (e.g., 'does anyone
know where claim X has come from' or 'I'm looking for personal anecdotes
relating to Y'), that's a different matter and asking a professional body
like ours might well be an appropriate way of tackling that.

I think this issue has come up on the list before (but can't be [BrE] arsed
to look it up in the archives--so perhaps I'm as bad as the UG students I'm
implicitly criticising here!).

Lynne, the grumpy old instructor

Dr M Lynne Murphy
Senior Lecturer and Head of Department
Linguistics and English Language
Arts B135
University of Sussex
Brighton BN1 9QN

phone: +44-(0)1273-678844
http://separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.com

--On 21 February 2007 23:43 -0500 "Baker, John" <JMB at STRADLEY.COM> wrote:

> Jamie,
>
> I'm sorry if I seemed offended.  I was not, at least not by you.  Please,
> just take my comments at face value.  I think they do raise issues that
> you will need to address.
>
> John Baker
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Jamie Landers
> Sent: Wed 2/21/2007 8:16 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Help Needed Please
>
>
>
> John,
>
> I apologize if I offended you in any way.  Maybe I did not explain myself
> very clearly.  The project that I am undertaking is not only partial to
> attorneys, but my professor suggested that we focus on one profession and
> she believed that Law would be one profession that would have an abundant
> amount of information.
>
> Brenda Lester said this about my project:
> "Legal terms become somewhat of an elitist barrier, not because of how
> much money the attorney makes, but because he or she can define certain
> terms, can speak a special language, and make the language work for the
> client."
>
> This sums up what my group is trying to accomplish; however, spoken more
> eloquently.  I apologize again if you feel that my group was trying to
> degrade those who study law.  We understand that Lawyers, along with many
> other social groups, use jargon; however, my professor recommended that we
> narrow our project down to one profession and she suggested the field of
> law saying that she was sure that it would have lots of information.
>
> I appreciate your time to respond to my email and I apologize for any
> misinterpretations.
>
> Jamie
>
> On 2/21/07, Baker, John <JMB at stradley.com> wrote:
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society < ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       "Baker, John" < JMB at STRADLEY.COM>
>> Subject:      Re: Help Needed Please
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -------
>>
>>
>>        I question the premises of your project.  First, it's far from
>> clear to me, as a lawyer, that I have an elevated status in society.
>> The case could as well be made that lawyers as a group are particularly
>> disdained.  I certainly don't know of any other profession that is the
>> brunt of so many jokes.  To the extent that individual lawyers have
>> status, it's arguably from their education and income, rather than
>> because they are lawyers.
>>
>>        Second, if there is an unequal power relationship (and there
>> is), it favors the client (which is what I assume you mean by "Patron"),
>> and not the lawyer.  I've worked all night many times for clients, but I
>> can't think of a single client who has ever done that for me.  The power
>> relationship may favor the lawyer on some occasions, such as pro bono
>> representation of criminal defendants or contingency fee representation
>> of individual tort plaintiffs.  These power relationships have nothing
>> to do with how the lawyer talks and a great deal to do with the lawyer's
>> fees.
>>
>>        Third, it's contrary to my experience that lawyers use jargon to
>> maintain elevated status either in general or in their relationships
>> with their clients.  To the extent that the lawyer's speech is used to
>> gain status, it's because of the substantive information contained, not
>> the wording used.  For example, the lawyer might say "You can't do that,
>> that would violate Rule 10b-5."  It doesn't matter whether the lawyer
>> calls it Rule 10b-5, or the antifraud rule, or some other name.  It's
>> the information being conveyed that gives the status.
>>
>>        Lawyers do use jargon, of course.  Every group needs jargon in
>> order to convey concepts that are of particular interest to that group.
>> But I would argue that jargon is primarily for in-group use.
>>
>>
>> John Baker
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU ] On Behalf
>> Of Jamie Landers
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 5:03 PM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Help Needed Please
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> My name is Jamie Landers and I am a senior at Kennesaw State University
>> in Georgia.  I have a project to due that I am hoping someone can help
>> me with.  The project is for my Linguistics class and it is over unequal
>> power relationships.  My group is focusing on Lawyer/Patron
>> relationships and mainly how Lawyers use jargon in order to maintain
>> their elevated status in society.  If anyone can help me out, or has
>> research that may prove beneficial, please email me back at
>> jme1283 at gmail.com.  Thank you so much!
>>
>> I appreciate all your help in this matter!
>>
>> Yours truly,
>>
>> Jamie Landers
>> Student
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

------------------------------------------------------------
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