"Don't shit where you eat"

Beverly Flanigan flanigan at OHIO.EDU
Wed Jul 11 00:55:36 UTC 2007 

No sweat, Wilson, I was born at home too--to non-middle class white farmers
of Scandinavian Protestant stock in Minnesota!  Maybe I'm super-protective
of my Muslim friends and colleagues because they are the shat-upon
present-day Indians.  So let's let bygones be bygones (nice phrase), and
get back to talking about dialects.

At 03:31 PM 7/10/2007, you wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>Subject:      Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>I wasn't generalizing. I was describing my own experiences. Of course,
>it's not true that every Arab Muslim makes attempts to convert anyone.
>I've known Muslim Arabs from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Egypt who
>simply minded their own business WRT religion. Some Muslim Arabs from
>other places have come on to me WRT Islam when I didn't know them well
>enough to be able to say what countries they came from, except in the
>case of Musa ("That means 'Moses""!). a Palestinian with whom I once
>shared an office. The fact that he had a black girlfriend with whom he
>had a child didn't fire any interest is Islam. Another colleague, with
>whom I fortunately did not share an office, was unable to sway me from
>The One True Faith, despite his sharing with me offprints from learned
>journals that argued that slavery under Islam was far more benign for
>blacks than was slavery under Catholicism. An Arab fellow-student at
>UC Davis made many vain and annoying efforts to rap to me about how
>much nicer Islam is for black people than Christianity is. That is to
>say, their approaches were based on race. But, even had their
>approaches had not been, I would have felt hassled by the
>Jehovah's-Witness approach. To paraphrase Shakespeare, the annoying
>experiences with people are remembered, whereas more pleasant ones may
>be forgotten.
>
>As for my Turkish friends, birds of a feather flock together. Given
>that I'm a non-practicing Catholic who hasn't been to Mass - and I
>went only because my baby brother was one of the altar boys - since
>some time in the '60's, it's not likely to be the case that I would
>have as friends people who are practicing members of some other
>religion, when I don't even have friends who are practicing Catholics.
>
>It's hard to avoid the making of generalizing assumptions merely on
>the basis of one's own limited experience, even the face of
>contradictory evidence. For instance, on the basis of your name, I
>assume that you're a white woman of Irish ancestry who's a Catholic,
>despite the fact that I also know people with Irish names who are
>black Catholics (Patricia and Kathleen Cooney), I also know of white
>people with Irish names who are Protestants (Jimmy Taggart), and I
>also know of men named "Beverly" (I. Beverly Lake).
>
>Needless to say, I don't need to be schooled WRT either stereotyping
>or what, for want of a better term, I'll call "reverse stereotyping,"
>the assumption that the life of a black person is the same as that of
>a similar white person. E.g. a white friend, despite knowing that I
>was born in Texas in the 'Thirties, once asked me how long my mother
>had stayed in the hospital after I was born. Being black, I wasn't
>born in any hospital in Texas. Rather, I was born in a bedroom in the
>house of my maternal grandparents with the aid of a midwife, as was
>usual among middle-class blacks in that place at that time.
>
>Despite my defensiveness, I concede your point.
>
>-Wilson
>
>On 7/10/07, Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at ohio.edu> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Beverly Flanigan <flanigan at OHIO.EDU>
> > Subject:      Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Sorry, I disagree with you on this one, Wilson.  After 30 years of knowing
> > and teaching Muslims from many (not just Arab) countries, I would hesitate
> > to generalize about conversion tendencies (Christians _don't_ try to
> > convert?!), naming patterns, or anything else about them.  And "Turks
> > sometimes poke fun at Islam, they speak English very well - which is not to
> > imply that Arab Muslims don't -  and they party their asses off"?  _Some_
> > secular Turks, yes; but religious Muslim Turks (including good friends of
> > mine) are quite another matter.  I take no stand on the contentious Turkish
> > political situation (well, yes, I do, but that's another matter), but let's
> > be careful not to stereotype cultures--we know what happened in the West
> > when we did (and do) that.  A little personal experience takes us "beyond
> > the book," as you discovered yourself.
> >
> > At 05:40 PM 7/9/2007, you wrote:
> > >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >-----------------------
> > >Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> > >Subject:      Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> > >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> > >
> > >My experience is essentially the same as yours, Jon. My experience has
> > >also been that what you read is more trustworthy than conclusions that
> > >you reach on your own. Back in the day, I concluded, on the basis of
> > >evidence gathered from news stories, a TIME cover featuring the late
> > >Charles Malik, then premier of Lebanon, and friends named "George,"
> > >"Georgette," and "Louis," that all Lebanese Catholics (the Maronite
> > >Church is a branch of the Catholic Church) had Western first names.
> > >Some time later, I worked with a Lebanese colleague whose first name
> > >was "Jamil." Given that his name was Arabic, one day I asked Jamil
> > >several questions about Islam. Jamil became quite agitated and claimed
> > >that he had no idea what the answers to my questions were, not  even
> > >what the proper Arabic pronunciation of Muhammad was. The next day,
> > >and every day thereafter, Jamil came to work wearing a gold crucifix
> > >around his neck. I'm a slow learner, since I had years earlier assumed
> > >that an Egyptian classmate at UC Davis was a Muslim, when he was a
> > >Coptic Christian.
> > >
> > >I've now noted a major difference: in my experience, true Muslims are
> > >like Jehovah's Witnesses; they want to convert you. Christians mind
> > >their own business. Turks are a notable exception to this
> > >generalization. Turks sometimes poke fun at Islam, they speak English
> > >very well - which is not to imply that Arab Muslims don't -  and they
> > >party their asses off. Nevertheless, they're surprised when this third
> > >characteristic sometimes causes them to be mistaken for black
> > >Americans.
> > >
> > >-Wilson
> > >
> > >-Wilson
> > >
> > >On 7/9/07, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > > Poster:       Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
> > > > Subject:      Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> > > >
> > >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Hey, Wilson, I never heard of that hand thing in NYC except as an Arab
> > > custom.
> > > >
> > > >   And I had to read a book to learn that.
> > > >
> > > >   JL
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> > > >   ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > > Poster: Wilson Gray
> > > > Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> > > >
> > >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > See there! Ain't I done told y'all a whole lot, segregation really
> > > > worked? I have never heard tell before this moment of any customary
> > > > use of the left hand among the colored. In the particular case that I
> > > > cite, the white guy was an Italian-American from Philadelphia named
> > > > deRosa and the black guy, named Jefferson, was from Oceanside, CA,
> > > > then an Army town connected to the now-defunct Fort Ord. His father
> > > > was also a GI. Nevertheless, Jeff was something of a punk. The insult
> > > > hurt his feelings so badly that he came back to the barracks crying.
> > > > He didn't get much sympathy from the rest of us, because we'd warned
> > > > his black ass not to go to the party from the BE-gin-nin'. There was
> > > > no telling what might happen to a coupl'a three blacks among a crowd
> > > > of drunken Northern GI's. On the other hand, Southerners who, when
> > > > sober, gave us the hate stare - cf. _Black Like Me_ - tended to become
> > > > "We're all Southerners together" when drunk.
> > > >
> > > > -Wilson
> > > >
> > > > On 7/7/07, Dennis Preston
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > > > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > > > Poster: Dennis Preston
> > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> > > > >
> > >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Wilson,
> > > > >
> > > > > This is an interesting joke; a common piece of racist folk stuff
> > > > > where I grew up, around Louisville KY, (apparently told with some
> > > > > degree of belief) was that black people shook hands with their left
> > > > > hands customarily. Is (was) this widespread?
> > > > >
> > > > > dInIs
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > >-----------------------
> > > > > >Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > > > >Poster: Wilson Gray
> > > > > >Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> > > > > >-----------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > > ----------
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Ii agree with what you say WRT to Muslim custom. I read about it
> in a
> > > > > >book, about fifty years ago. ;-) But wouldn't that also be true of
> > > > > >Americans? Wouldn't you switch hands or put down what you were
> > > > > >holding, in order to be able to shake hands with another
> American with
> > > > > >your right hand? Or maybe I'm being hypersensitive.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >White guy offers right hand to black guy:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >"Happy New Year!"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Black guy extends right hand.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >White guy withdraws right hand and offers left hand:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >"Oops! I'm sorry! I use my *left* hand to shake with niggers."
> > > > > >
> > > > > >-Wilson
> > > > > >
> > > > > >On 7/6/07, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
> > > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > >>-----------------------
> > > > > >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > > > >> Poster: Beverly Flanigan
> > > > > >> Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>----------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > > -----------
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> At 04:46 PM 7/6/2007, you wrote:
> > > > > >> >---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > > >> >-----------------------
> > > > > >> >Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > > > >> >Poster: Barbara Need
> > > > > >> >Subject: Re: "Don't shit where you eat"
> > > > > >> >--------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> > > -------------
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >At 23:11 -0400 03/7/07, sagehen wrote:
> > > > > >> > > >Sorry for the crude title.
> > > > > >> > >>
> > > > > >> > >>Has anyone searched to find out what the earliest version of
> > > this must
> > > > > >> > >>have been? I would doubt that it was that phrasing.
> > > > > >> > >>
> > > > > >> > >>Anyone suggest what the original sentiment might have been?
> > > > > >> > >>
> > > > > >> > >>Sam Clements
> > > > > >> > > ~~~~~~~~~~
> > > > > >> > >I remember reading about the Essenes or some similar group --
> > > associated
> > > > > >> > >with the Dead Sea Scrolls, perhaps? -- that had strictures
> > > concerning the
> > > > > >> > >roles of the two hands: the one that went into the communal pot
> > > > > >>at mealtime
> > > > > >> > >would never be the one that wiped one's bottom. Whether the
> > > > > >>left was the
> > > > > >> > >"clean" and the right the "unclean" I don't remember, but I
> > > believe the
> > > > > >> > >roles were immutable.
> > > > > >> > >AM
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >I remember a month-long Sunday school sequence on the Arab world
> > > > > >> >(mid-70s, Unitarian Church) in which we were instructed to
> eat with
> > > > > >> >the right hand (no utensils!) because the left hand was
> traditionally
> > > > > >> >used to wipe oneself.
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >Barbara
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >Barbara Need
> > > > > >> >UChicago
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Still true for Muslims. If I'm holding something in my right
> hand and
> > > > > >> unthinkingly shake hands with a Muslim student with my left
> hand, I
> > > > > >> immediately know I've committed a faux pas from the look on the
> > > face of my
> > > > > >> student.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--
> > > > > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange
> complaint to
> > > > > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> > > > > >-----
> > > > > > -Sam'l Clemens
> > > > > >
> > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Dennis R. Preston
> > > > > University Distinguished Professor
> > > > > Department of English
> > > > > Morrill Hall 15-C
> > > > > Michigan State University
> > > > > East Lansing, MI 48864 USA
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> > > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> > > > -----
> > > > -Sam'l Clemens
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
> > >come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> > >-----
> > >                                               -Sam'l Clemens
> > >
> > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
>
>--
>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>-----
>                                               -Sam'l Clemens
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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