"until" vs "before" or "to"

[Beverly Flanigan]

The distribution has been generally established, AFAIK (probably by
Virginia McDavid? I'll check my sources when I have time), with reference
to the major dialect areas:  the North uses "to" and maybe "of" (I'm less
sure of this); the Midland (or at least South Midland) and South use "till
(not spelled "til," as Arnold has noted).  Midland extends west of the
Mississippi and tends to fan out, so it's not surprising that Colorado and
Washington State would use "till."  My western students (at least as far
west as Colorado and Kansas) use it, as they do "needs washed" and positive
"anymore," other Midland forms.  Lamont Antieau in Colorado is mapping this
Atlas region right now and should help to flesh out the mapping Arnold
asked about.

BTW, our new local nsp publisher has written twice (mockingly, of course)
about the locals' use of "needs washed/done" and exhorted his writers NOT
to use it.  Gotta write to him one of these days.

Beverly

At 10:18 AM 7/18/2007, you wrote:
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       Susan Rosine <basenjiluvr at MSN.COM>
>Subject:      Re: "until" vs "before" or "to"
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>My mother is from Alabama, my father from Indiana. I was born in Colorado
>but grew up in Washington state.  I say "10 til 6" and "quarter til 6".  The
>"til" seems to be to be Southern, while "of" seems very Northern or East
>Coast. Just my two cents worth.
>
>
>Date:    Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:46:11 -0400
>From:    sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
>Subject: Re: "until" vs "before" or "to"
>
> >Did the announcer say "until" or "till"?  "Till" is more common, and the
> >standard term in the Midland (and South, I believe).  It goes way back,
> >noted in early travel journals as of Scotch-Irish origin.  Dictionaries
> >cite it as a separate lexical item, if I'm not mistaken, more related to
> >"to" than to "until."  (I don't have my sources here at home, but I've
> >cited this in my Encyclopedia of Appalachia entry of 2006, and Michael
> >Montgomery has discussed it long before that.)  As a common daily usage, it
> >goes deep: I always tell my students that I, a Northerner born and bred,
> >will always say "quarter to," but my Indiana/Ohio son will forever say
> >"quarter till."  The third option is usually "quarter of"; I've never heard
> >"quarter before" (or 15 minutes before).  This seems to me simply
> >dialectal, not semantic.  I forget where you live, Sage Hen?
> >
> >Beverly Flanigan
> >Ohio University
> >
> >At 08:02 PM 7/16/2007, you wrote:
> >>---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>-----------------------
> >>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>Poster:       sagehen <sagehen at WESTELCOM.COM>
> >>Subject:      "until" vs "before" or "to"
> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------
> >>-
> >>
> >>(a) It is now 25 minutes until 6.
> >>(b) It is now 25  minutes before 6.
> >>(c) It is now 25 minutes to 6.
> >>   ~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>What's the difference?
> >>
> >>  (a) feels wrong to me, unless sthg important is going to happen at 6.
> >>
> >>  (b) & (c) as simple announcements of the time seem right.
> >>
> >>Is this just me, or do others have the same sense?  I would probably never
> >>have thought of this  if one of our local radio announcers didn't use the
> >>"until" form regularly,  catching my attention.  Most of them say
> >>"before."
> >>AM
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>This particular announcer definitely says "until."  The station is in
>Canton NY, but  its personnel come from all over the country.
>I myself would be more likely to say "25 of 6" or "quarter of"  than "
>till" or "to" or "before."  I grew up in Lincoln NE.
>AM
>
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