For words ending in "-ity" is it ~t or ~d

[Tom Zurinskas]

Thanks James,

Appreciate your input.

Dictionaries dont' recognize the r-flap as an English sound.  There is no
symbol for it in pronunciation guides.  So if it's a sound Americans don't
make how can it be said the ending "ity" is an r-flap.  I don't know what
you mean by "tap".  If it's a tapped "d" sound it's  still a "d" sound.

Other languages have the r-flap.  In truespel book one I find that it's the
most prevalent non-English phoneme.  But it sure isn't a flap in "-ity".  So
I'm saying your books are wrong.  Sorry about the heresy, but perhaps the
writers were natives of other languages with prevalent r-flaps.

Try sending some sound files on this to clarify the books position.

Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
See truespel.com - and the 4  truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at
authorhouse.com.





>From: James Harbeck <jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA>
>Reply-To: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject: Re: For words ending in "-ity" is it ~t or ~d
>Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 23:48:48 -0400
>
>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>-----------------------
>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       James Harbeck <jharbeck at SYMPATICO.CA>
>Subject:      Re: For words ending in "-ity" is it ~t or ~d
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Tom, just so you know, on the matter of whether the sound in the
>average North American pronunciation of "matter" or "body" or similar
>words is [d] or a flap or tap, the level of agreement among
>phoneticians that it's a flap or tap is about on the level of the
>agreement among geologists that plate tectonics works. It may be that
>_you_ fully pronounce a [d] on those words, but extensive data show
>that most North American people in relaxed speech produce a flap or
>tap (usually a tap, but in words like "murder" a flap is common), and
>a flap or tap is common for many of these words even in the most
>formal speech. It's why the British pronunciation of "very" is
>sometimes represented for Americans as "veddy" -- because Americans
>would pronounce "veddy", or "Betty" or "heady" or "sweaty", with the
>same sound many British speakers will use for the r in "very".
>
>Certainly the place of articulation is the same and the manner is
>similar, but the [d] in "do" and "don't" is, for most NA speakers,
>more strongly articulated than the tap they say in "madder" and
>"matter". That tap is not an English _phoneme_, it's an English
>_allophone_, and a very common one. The phoneme is /d/ or /t/, but
>the allophone is in these cases the tap (or, in some instances, the
>flap). It would, on the other hand, be wrong to render the citation
>form of "matter" with a /d/ phoneme, because while nearly everyone in
>NA says it with a tap normally, it's understood and agreed that in
>full citation-form pronunciation that consonant would be a [t] and
>not a [d] -- and "matter" carefully pronounced with a full-value [d]
>would be heard as "madder," even if preceded by "what's the".
>
>You're free to disagree with what's written in textbooks, taught in
>classes and published in papers, of course, but I just wanted to make
>sure you knew you weren't actually arguing with just the impressions
>of one or two individuals on this list. You might find some of the
>available literature on the subject of interest, and admitting of
>more detailed material to engage with. Categorical perception can
>make prima facie acoustical impressions unreliable -- most English
>speakers have to be trained to be aware of aspiration, for instance,
>but it's very real. As to your proprioceptive impression, again, you
>may well fully pronounce a [d] in those words, but I and, I suspect,
>many others on this list are quite certain that we produce a tap or
>flap in many of those positions as a matter (not madder) of course.
>
>James Harbeck.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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