Finally!
Sarah Lang
slang at UCHICAGO.EDU
Tue Sep 25 14:45:46 UTC 2007
Obviously.
Thanks,
S.
On Sep 25, 2007, at 8:29 AM, Dennis Preston wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Dennis Preston <preston at MSU.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Finally!
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
>
> But then you are using a preposition, not a particle.
> I can also "look over him" if he is short, but I have not examined
> him at all.
>
> dInIs
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
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>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster: Sarah Lang <slang at UCHICAGO.EDU>
>> Subject: Re: Finally!
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----------
>>
>> Agreed. If I "fuck over [personal pronoun]," I'm talking about where
>> I am physically located whilst fucking.
>>
>> Interestingly, why *does* the pronoun frak it to gorram hell?
>> S.
>>
>> On Sep 25, 2007, at 8:09 AM, Dennis Preston wrote:
>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster: Dennis Preston <preston at MSU.EDU>
>>> Subject: Re: Finally!
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>> ---------
>>>
>>> I am a 'fuck over' speaker since the mid to late 1940's (which does
>>> not at all challenge its perhaps earlier greater frequency in the
>>> AfrAmer community). But if I had been in Wlson's barracks, I would
>>> not have freaked.
>>>
>>> I do not accept "fuck over him" any more than I would accept
>>> "looked
>>> over him" (for eyeball, investigate, assess). "Fuck over N" or
>>> "fuck
>>> N over" are both OK by me; It's the pronoun that fucks up it.
>>>
>>> dInIs
>>>
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>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> Subject: Re: Finally!
>>>>
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --
>>>> ----------
>>>>
>>>> What Jon said.
>>>>
>>>> As for my claim that there's a relationship to race, "fuck
>>>> over" has
>>>> been a BE street (and, in some households, a home)
>>>> colloquialism that
>>>> I've been familiar with since the beginning of time. But this,
>>>> in my
>>>> experience, is not the case among white speakers. As an example
>>>> the
>>>> racial bit, in 1960, I once used the term in the barracks at
>>>> the Army
>>>> Language School. I asked, "Have you guys heard about the way
>>>> that the
>>>> First shirt fucked over Lupow?" And my barracks-mates, all of whom
>>>> were white (during the time that I was at the Language School,
>>>> among
>>>> approximately 400 students in the Russian Division, there were
>>>> only
>>>> two black GI"s: your humble correspondent and a WAC with a big
>>>> butt),
>>>> freaked. Not a single one had ever heard the phrase, "fuck over,"
>>>> before. I was stunned, since I know it like I know my own name.
>>>> Naturally, they thought that it was really cool and wanted to
>>>> learn
>>>> it. (I had to teach some people that you say "FUCK over" and not
>>>> "fuck
>>>> OVER"). I first heard the expression, "fuck someone over" ca.1970
>>>> and,
>>>> from that time to the present, I've never heard it used by blacks
>>>> under any circumstances, despite any literary evidence to the
>>>> contrary, possibly because I've never been a fan of Louis
>>>> Armstrong,
>>>> etc., not to mention that no such record would ever have been
>>>> played
>>>> on the radio and it's doubtful that it would have been sold in any
>>>> black record shop, back in the day, any more than a black store or
>>>> shop would have sold pornography. Till at least the 'Seventies,
>>>> the
>>>> most erotic material freely available in black-operated stores was
>>>> Playboy, Jet magazine, and the Jet girlie calendar. I went to
>>>> grade
>>>> school with Lamont McLemore, Jet's longtime girlie photographer -
>>>> since ca.1950 - and also a member of the Fifth Dimension, the
>>>> formerly
>>>> well-known Saint Louis singing group. He was a Renaissance man, I
>>>> reckon. It must have been a hard life, since Lamont, though he was
>>>> younger than I am, died several years ago.
>>>>
>>>> -Wilson
>>>>
>>>> As for the syntax, saying "He fucked over me," etc., sounds
>>>> completely
>>>> natural to me. OTOH, "He fucked me over"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 9/24/07, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>> Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at YAHOO.COM>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Finally!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --
>>>>> -----------
>>>>>
>>>>> Though skin pigmentation is irrelevant per se, HDAS suggests
>>>>> (and
>>>>> I believe) that "to fuck over X"
>>>>>
>>>>> a. was indeed the original form in the sense in question,
>>>>>
>>>>> b. has been vastly more prevalent among speakers of AAVE - so
>>>>> much so as to sugget the idiom's origin there,
>>>>>
>>>>> c. was not much used in white speech before the mid '70s,
>>>>>
>>>>> d. still sounds rhythmically or positionally "wrong" to me
>>>>> as a
>>>>> speaker of WAVE.
>>>>>
>>>>> Earliest HDAS ex. is from 1961, but the context suggests it
>>>>> was
>>>>> around for a while.
>>>>>
>>>>> The form "fuck X over" undoubtedly owes something to "work X
>>>>> over." I believe this is becoming the general form.
>>>>>
>>>>> JL
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>>> Subject: Finally!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> --
>>>>> -----------
>>>>>
>>>>> The correct usage has appeared in print! From Slashdot:
>>>>>
>>>>> "... [G]ranting corporations the right to _fuck over_ other
>>>>> corporations who come up with rather ordinary improvements ..."
>>>>>
>>>>> Lest the point be missed, for those of us old enough (and/or
>>>>> black enough?),
>>>>>
>>>>> "... [G]ranting corporations the right to _fuck_ other
>>>>> corporations
>>>>> _over_ who come up with rather ordinary improvements ..." is
>>>>> ungrammatical.
>>>>>
>>>>> That is, [fuck NP over] is absolutely *not* a viable or a
>>>>> grammatical
>>>>>
>>>>> alternative to [fuck over NP]. Unless, of course, you speak a
>>>>> different dialect.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are 215,000 raw Google hits that include uses such as "get
>>>>> the
>>>>> fuck over it." So, sorting out the various usages would take ten
>>>>> men
>>>>> and a boy. But the Urban Dictionary, at least, has it right.
>>>>> Well,
>>>>> sort of. The second definition defines _fuck over_ as a
>>>>> Briticism
>>>>> meaning "fuck over," with examples ambiguous as to dialect. And
>>>>> either
>>>>> UD doesn't have "fuck NP over" (unlikely?) or I don't know how
>>>>> to find
>>>>> it (likely?).
>>>>>
>>>>> -Wilson
>>>>>
>>>>> -Wilson
>>>>> --
>>>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange
>>>>> complaint to
>>>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>> -----
>>>>> -Sam'l Clemens
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with
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>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange
>>>> complaint to
>>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>> -----
>>>> -Sam'l Clemens
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dennis R. Preston
>>> University Distinguished Professor
>>> Department of English
>>> Morrill Hall 15-C
>>> Michigan State University
>>> East Lansing, MI 48864 USA
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
>
> --
> Dennis R. Preston
> University Distinguished Professor
> Department of English
> Morrill Hall 15-C
> Michigan State University
> East Lansing, MI 48864 USA
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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