Weird comparative now fit to print

Wed Apr 23 03:30:24 UTC 2008

I've had a half-written post on just this topic languishing among the drafts
for couple of years now. This thread has prompted me to finish the thing and
post it:
http://literalminded.wordpress.com/2008/04/22/lets-be-safe-than-sorry/.

Neal Whitman
Email: nwhitman at ameritech.net
Blog: http://literalminded.wordpress.com
Webpage: http://literalmindedlinguistics.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: Weird comparative now fit to print

> ---------------------- Information from the mail
> header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Arnold M. Zwicky" <zwicky at CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Weird comparative now fit to print
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Apr 22, 2008, at 9:41 AM, Larry Horn wrote:
>
>> I don't know what these are called, but note the headline of this
>> piece in today's Times:
>>
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/22/sports/baseball/22yankees.html?_r=1&ref=sports&oref=slogin
>>
>> And in case you think it's a typo (for "Later Rather Than Sooner"
>> perhaps), the inside page headline in the hard copy is
>>
>> Chamberlain Will Start,
>> But Later Than Sooner.
>>
>> ... These comparatives must have a name (which Arnold no doubt
>> knows);
>
> but arnold doesn't.  here's the thing: "than" normally introduces the
> second piece in a two-part construction, the first piece of which is a
> comparative or something with semantics related to comparison:
>   actual comparative: _more beautiful_ than X; _bigger_ than X;
> _better_ here than there
>   quantity "more": _more ideas_ than X
>   "rather": here _rather_ than there
>   _different_ ... than [deprecated by sticklers, but in fact now
> standard]
>   _inferior/superior_ ... than X [non-standard; see "implicit
> comparative" in MWDEU]
>   equative "as": twice _as much/many_ than X; twice _as likely_ than
> X [non-standard]
>   superlatives: _the most_ ... than X [non-standard]
> plus several types that MWDEU treats as syntactic blends:
>   _hardly/scarcely/barely_ Clause ... than Clause (Hardly had I
> entered the room than the children began screaming) [deprecated, but
> at least verging on standard; "when" is prescribed instead of "than"
> -- but for "no sooner", "when" is prescribed and "than" deprecated]
>   disjunction of equative and comparative: as good as or _better_
> than X [deprecated as non-parallel, but verging on standard; in any
> case, this is just straightforward comparison as far as "than" is
> concerned]
>
> (i looked at the non-standard cases in a posting here back in
> december, except for the superlative case, which i first heard about
> in a message from Eric Justino on 3/9/08; he provided the real-life
> example "Las Vegas has the most chapels per capita than any other U.S.
> city."  the non-standard cases are surprisingly -- well, surprisingly
> to me -- frequent.)
>
> the problem is that i know of no standard term for the first elements
> that license "than"; call them "than-licensors". what's notable about
> Larry's NYT example is that there's no licensor for "than"; the
> comparative "later" in the standard "later rather than sooner" is not
> the licensor, instead "rather" is (compare "here rather than there").
> it looks like the comparative "later" is being taken as a licensor
> anyway, so the result is a kind of truncation, with the licensor of
> the standard language omitted (too many comparative words! let's get
> rid of the most dispensable -- least contentful -- one!).
>
>> in any case they're impossible for me, but evidently not for
>> everyone.
>
> clearly, to look at the many google hits for "later than sooner" (and
> removing the cases of "better later than sooner") and the gigantic
> number of hits for "sooner than later" (again, with "better"
> excluded), plus some for "earlier than later". and a scattering of
> others, like:
>
>   Three times in the washer and my favorite jeans starts to become
> droopy in the ****. Yes you are probably right. Most of my clothes get
> bigger than smaller. ...
> answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080409221210AA3rCAA
>
> there are even a few cases not involving comparatives:
>
>   You liberals pick and choose just like some conversatives when you
> want big than smallgovt.. The gov't shouldn't be getting involved with
> Marriage. ...
> www.topix.com/forum/news/
> 2008-presidential-election/TAIHIVR2OG9PLMK2O/p2
>
>   I have to be where I can work with something small than big to
> build up my own self. It isn't a trick.
> www.mukto-mona.com/Special_Event_/rationalist_day/psychic_confession.htm
>
> so maybe the truncation is more general than i first thought (though
> perhaps the "Xer than Yer" cases were where the thing started).
>
> i hadn't noticed the truncation before, and i don't see it in the
> handbooks.  what *is* in some handbooks (see brief discussion in
> MWDEU, p. 798) is "rather than" instead of simple "than" in
> comparison: "The group is more interested in the edible varieties and
> in experimenting with recipes rather than in pursuing rare
> specimens."  these examples look like a combo of the plain-grade
> construction
>   is interested in ... rather than in ...
> and the comparative-grade construction
>   is more interested in ... than in ...
>
> arnold
>
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