Chinglish

Fri Aug 29 02:38:23 UTC 2008

>I'd call it an allophone of "g" in "singing".

Tom, I'm not sure anyone would call it that. Regardless, you are missing the
big point here: for most people, words like "sing" and "finger" have no [g]
sound. It isn't [s]+[I]+[n]+[g].....it's [s]+[I]+[ng]. There is a big
difference between the [g] and [ng] sounds. Please refer to any respectable
book on phonology for more information.

>I personally have two "g" s for "singing". I gues you have none.  Must
sound like sinnin'.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone pronounce "singing" with two [g]
sounds; I usually hear two [ng] sounds.

>I once make a list of words where the "g" is supposed to be silent.  Words
like finger, singer, linger, dinger.

I've also never heard these pronounced without the [ng] sound.

Scot

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Chinglish
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Paul,
>
> I'd call it an allophone of "g" in "singing".  I can hear in m-w.com an
> weak "g" for sing.  There's something there because "singing" does not sound
> like sinning.  I personally have two "g" s for "singing".  I gues you have
> none.  Must sound like sinnin'.
>
> I once make a list of words where the "g" is supposed to be silent.  Words
> like finger, singer, linger, dinger.  Folks could not pick out the ones
> where the "g" was silent.  If some dialects have silent "g"s there, I would
> think they are in the minority.
>
> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at
> authorhouse.com.
>
> > Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:15:48 -0400
> > From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Chinglish
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Paul Johnston
> > Subject: Re: Chinglish
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Tom:
> > I hate to clue ya, but unless you're from Longg Island, are an L2
> > speaker, or are from West Midland England from Blackpool to Derby to
> > Gloucester, you don't have a "g" in sing. The last sound is a voiced
> > velar nasal, and YES, it's the velarity that fronts and maybe raises
> > the vowel in those who have either the allophonic difference I have
> > (and I guess m-w.com has my setup, from what Matthew has to say) or
> > those who really DO have an /i/. We've talked about the raising of /
> > ae/> /e/ before /N/ before, and again, nasality + velarity does that.
> > Wing and English, historically, get their vowel from an earlier
> > raising process changing /EN/ to /IN/ in Middle English.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > On Aug 28, 2008, at 5:56 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> >
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
> >> Subject: Re: Chinglish
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> ---------
> >>
> >> Thanks Terry,
> >>
> >> Right. The term "English linguist" is said by the US and maybe the
> >> UK majority as ~Eenglish leengwist~ as can be heard in m-w.com.
> >> It's been going on for years. Gene Kelly said "Seeeeengin' in the
> >> rain. Just seeeengin' in the rain." In Spamalot they correct the
> >> pronunciation of "England" as ~Eeeeenglind, accentuating the ~ee.
> >>
> >> I think the culprit here causing the pronunciation of ~ee instead
> >> of ~i for "ing" is not the "n" but the "g". There is no problem
> >> saying short "i" ~i before "n" as in "winch", "since", "chintz" -
> >> that's a normal "n" nasal with the tongue tip on the top gums. But
> >> saying a "g" after "n" makes the back of the tongue touch the velar
> >> top palate way back at the top of the mouth, a hard trick when the
> >> preceding sound, "n", wants the tongue tip to touch the top gums.
> >> This is a hard transition. So the mouth cheats in anticipation of
> >> saying the "g" in "ing" and squeezes the "i" through the tongue and
> >> palate and the "n" through the tongue and palate to let the tongue
> >> get to the "g" at the back of the palate. The squeezed "i" comes
> >> out ~ee, and the "n" and "g" sound a bit different as well.
> >>
> >> It appears that pronunciation of any sound depends mostly on
> >> subsequent sound/s.
> >>
> >> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> >> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems"
> >> at authorhouse.com.
> >>
> >>> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 12:45:51 -0400
> >>> From: t.irons at MOREHEADSTATE.EDU
> >>> Subject: Re: Chinglish
> >>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >>>
> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>> -----------------------
> >>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>> Poster: Terry Irons
> >>> Subject: Re: Chinglish
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> ----------
> >>>
> >>> Folks,
> >>>
> >>> After years of adamantly arguing that the vowel before a velar
> >>> nasal (as
> >>> in the word "linguistics" or "English") is an [I] and not an [i].
> >>> I may
> >>> be coming to a realization that Natalie Maynor experienced as an
> >>> epiphany years ago on the "tennis" court. The vowel may in fact be an
> >>> [i]. I have tried to convince students that what they hear is the
> >>> nasalization which makes the vowel sound perceptually as if it
> >>> were an
> >>> [i] but that in fact it is an [I]. But spectrograms with some
> >>> students belie that claim. While it is true that the nasalization
> >>> lowers the formant, it is also the case that nasalization can
> >>> change the
> >>> articulation. The lowering of the velum to allow air flow in the
> >>> nasal
> >>> cavity effectively changes the shape of the oral cavity and in effect
> >>> raises the articulatory position of the preceding vowel.
> >>>
> >>> BTW, I had the discussion in class today with a student who argues
> >>> that
> >>> he says English with an [i] not an [I]. I tried to get him to use the
> >>> words "scene" and "sin" to support my view. He remains a bit
> >>> confused,
> >>> but I have to acknowledge that his pronunciation, while not the
> >>> same as
> >>> the vowel in "scene" is in fact closer to the vowel in "scene"
> >>> than it
> >>> is to the vowel in "sin."
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Virtually, Terry
> >>> (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
> >>> =(*)
> >>> Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu
> >>> Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164
> >>> Snail Mail: 150 University BLVD UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
> >>> (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
> >>> =(*)
> >>>
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