Chinglish

[Scot LaFaive]

>Are you really claiming that you pronounce "sing" with a (non-nasal) velar
stop, and "singing" with two?

I'm trying this now, and the only way I can do it is to add a syllable for
[g] alone....[sin]+[g]

Scot

On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 9:44 PM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Chinglish
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 2:25 AM +0000 8/29/08, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> >Paul,
> >
> >I'd call it an allophone of "g" in "singing".  I
> >can hear in m-w.com an weak "g" for sing.
> >There's something there because "singing" does
> >not sound like sinning.  I personally have two
> >"g" s for "singing".  I gues you have none.
> >Must sound like sinnin'.
>
> Tom, do you really not know what a velar nasal
> is?  And if so, are you not prepared to look it
> up?  And if if not, are you sure you really want
> to lecture us on phonetics?
>
> >I once make a list of words where the "g" is
> >supposed to be silent.  Words like finger,
> >singer, linger, dinger.  Folks could not pick
> >out the ones where the "g" was silent.
>
> ????  What do you mean by a silent "g"?  Many, I
> would hazard to say most, speakers of U.S.
> English have a [g] after the velar nasal
> represented by the <ng> in "finger" and "linger",
> but not in "singer" and "dinger" (any more than
> in "sing" or "ding"), but I am quite sure all
> English speakers have velar nasals in each of
> these words, not alveolar ones.  Your mention of
> "sinnin'" for "singing" is a red herring
> (although of course many speakers do have an
> alveolar, at least some of the time,
> corresponding to the *second* <ng> in "singing"
> as opposed to the first).  What is a silent "g"?
> Is it what I have in "gnostic" and "gnome"?
>
> >  If some dialects have silent "g"s there, I
> >would think they are in the minority.
>
> Are you really claiming that you pronounce "sing"
> with a (non-nasal) velar stop, and "singing" with
> two?
>
> LH
>
> >
> >Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> >See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus
> >"Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com.
> >
> >>  Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:15:48 -0400
> >>  From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU
> >>  Subject: Re: Chinglish
> >>  To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >>
> >>  ---------------------- Information from the
> >>mail header -----------------------
> >>  Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>  Poster: Paul Johnston
> >>  Subject: Re: Chinglish
> >>
>
> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>  Tom:
> >>  I hate to clue ya, but unless you're from Longg Island, are an L2
> >>  speaker, or are from West Midland England from Blackpool to Derby to
> >>  Gloucester, you don't have a "g" in sing. The last sound is a voiced
> >>  velar nasal, and YES, it's the velarity that fronts and maybe raises
> >>  the vowel in those who have either the allophonic difference I have
> >>  (and I guess m-w.com has my setup, from what Matthew has to say) or
> >>  those who really DO have an /i/. We've talked about the raising of /
> >>  ae/> /e/ before /N/ before, and again, nasality + velarity does that.
> >>  Wing and English, historically, get their vowel from an earlier
> >>  raising process changing /EN/ to /IN/ in Middle English.
> >>
> >>  Paul
> >>
> >>
> >>  On Aug 28, 2008, at 5:56 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> >>
> >>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>  -----------------------
> >>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>>  Poster: Tom Zurinskas
> >>>  Subject: Re: Chinglish
> >>>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>  ---------
> >>>
> >>>  Thanks Terry,
> >>>
> >>>  Right. The term "English linguist" is said by the US and maybe the
> >>>  UK majority as ~Eenglish leengwist~ as can be heard in m-w.com.
> >>>  It's been going on for years. Gene Kelly said "Seeeeengin' in the
> >>>  rain. Just seeeengin' in the rain." In Spamalot they correct the
> >>>  pronunciation of "England" as ~Eeeeenglind, accentuating the ~ee.
> >>>
> >>>  I think the culprit here causing the pronunciation of ~ee instead
> >>>  of ~i for "ing" is not the "n" but the "g". There is no problem
> >>>  saying short "i" ~i before "n" as in "winch", "since", "chintz" -
> >>>  that's a normal "n" nasal with the tongue tip on the top gums. But
> >>>  saying a "g" after "n" makes the back of the tongue touch the velar
> >>>  top palate way back at the top of the mouth, a hard trick when the
> >>>  preceding sound, "n", wants the tongue tip to touch the top gums.
> >>>  This is a hard transition. So the mouth cheats in anticipation of
> >  >> saying the "g" in "ing" and squeezes the "i" through the tongue and
> >>>  palate and the "n" through the tongue and palate to let the tongue
> >>>  get to the "g" at the back of the palate. The squeezed "i" comes
> >>>  out ~ee, and the "n" and "g" sound a bit different as well.
> >>>
> >>>  It appears that pronunciation of any sound depends mostly on
> >>>  subsequent sound/s.
> >>>
> >>>  Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> >>>  See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems"
> >>>  at authorhouse.com.
> >>>
> >>>>  Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 12:45:51 -0400
> >>>>  From: t.irons at MOREHEADSTATE.EDU
> >>>>  Subject: Re: Chinglish
> >>>>  To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >>>>
> >>>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>>  -----------------------
> >>>>  Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>>>  Poster: Terry Irons
> >>>>  Subject: Re: Chinglish
> >>>>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>  ----------
> >>>>
> >>>>  Folks,
> >>>>
> >>>>  After years of adamantly arguing that the vowel before a velar
> >>>>  nasal (as
> >>>>  in the word "linguistics" or "English") is an [I] and not an [i].
> >>>>  I may
> >>>>  be coming to a realization that Natalie Maynor experienced as an
> >>>>  epiphany years ago on the "tennis" court. The vowel may in fact be an
> >>>>  [i]. I have tried to convince students that what they hear is the
> >>>>  nasalization which makes the vowel sound perceptually as if it
> >>>>  were an
> >>>>  [i] but that in fact it is an [I]. But spectrograms with some
> >>>>  students belie that claim. While it is true that the nasalization
> >>>>  lowers the formant, it is also the case that nasalization can
> >>>>  change the
> >>>>  articulation. The lowering of the velum to allow air flow in the
> >>>>  nasal
> >>>>  cavity effectively changes the shape of the oral cavity and in effect
> >>>>  raises the articulatory position of the preceding vowel.
> >>>>
> >>>>  BTW, I had the discussion in class today with a student who argues
> >>>>  that
> >>>>  he says English with an [i] not an [I]. I tried to get him to use the
> >>>>  words "scene" and "sin" to support my view. He remains a bit
> >>>>  confused,
> >>>>  but I have to acknowledge that his pronunciation, while not the
> >>>>  same as
> >>>>  the vowel in "scene" is in fact closer to the vowel in "scene"
> >>>>  than it
> >>>>  is to the vowel in "sin."
> >>>>
> >>>>  --
> >>>>  Virtually, Terry
> >>>>  (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
> >>>>  =(*)
> >>>>  Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu
> >>>>  Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164
> >>>>  Snail Mail: 150 University BLVD UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
> >>>>  (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)
> >>>>  =(*)
> >>>>
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