Chinglish

Fri Aug 29 16:52:19 UTC 2008

To me it could go either way.  In m-w.com for the word "sing" I hear the "g", and below that on the same m-w.com page also for "sang" but not for "sung".  For some other words ending in "ng" I don't hear a pronounced "g" at the end of a word.

I suppose in spoken sentences the "g" sound would reappear, such as in "sing a song".  Incidently for "song" in m-w.com I hear a "g".

So for a simple notation such as truespel, because the "g" is persent in tradspel and pronounced sometimes in "ng" as ~ng even in final position, its spelled ~ng in truespel, even though both "n" and "g" are allophones of "n" and "g" because of their interactions.  Just like the sound ~k can be velar for palatized allophones of ~k.

Granted the suffix -ing is often said ~in with the "g" dropped and the "n" nonvelarized.

So the word "chinglish" would be ~cheenglish as I would say it and spell it in truespel.  One would need remember the ~een before a "g" is velarized.  For "ingrate" it would be ~ingraet without the velar but it's hard to velarize the "n" after a short i.Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com. > Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 11:38:21 -0400> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: Chinglish> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> Poster: Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>> Subject: Re: Chinglish> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> > Tom,> > I think you're identifying sounds with letters rather than with> phonetic symbols. The coda of "sing," whatever its vowel, is not> /ng/. It's /N/, the velar nasal. It has been /N/ since before Old> English. Historically what's happened is roughly the following.> > 1. In OE, "sing" would have been pronounce with the /Ng/ sequence> found in the middle of "linger," but by some time in Middle English> that final /g/ disappeared.> > 2 If a derivational suffix -er is added to a verb root, as in> "singer" /sINR/, with no /g/ pronounced. If an inflectional suffix> -er is added to an adjective, as in "longer" /lONgR/, there is a> stem-final /g/.> > 3. If a final -er is part of the stem and not a suffix, as in "finger"> /fINgR/, the phonetic /g/ also remains.> > So syllable-final /g/ after /N/ disappeared in word-final position and> in root final position but not in stem-final or morpheme-medial> position. If the /g/ deletes after /N/, you don't get /n/; you get> /N/.> > Herb> > On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 10:25 PM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> > Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> > Poster: Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>> > Subject: Re: Chinglish> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> >> > Paul,> >> > I'd call it an allophone of "g" in "singing". I can hear in m-w.com an weak "g" for sing. There's something there because "singing" does not sound like sinning. I personally have two "g" s for "singing". I gues you have none. Must sound like sinnin'.> >> > I once make a list of words where the "g" is supposed to be silent. Words like finger, singer, linger, dinger. Folks could not pick out the ones where the "g" was silent. If some dialects have silent "g"s there, I would think they are in the minority.> >> > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+> > See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems" at authorhouse.com.> >> >> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:15:48 -0400> >> From: paul.johnston at WMICH.EDU> >> Subject: Re: Chinglish> >> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> >>> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------> >> Sender: American Dialect Society> >> Poster: Paul Johnston> >> Subject: Re: Chinglish> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------> >>> >> Tom:> >> I hate to clue ya, but unless you're from Longg Island, are an L2> >> speaker, or are from West Midland England from Blackpool to Derby to> >> Gloucester, you don't have a "g" in sing. The last sound is a voiced> >> velar nasal, and YES, it's the velarity that fronts and maybe raises> >> the vowel in those who have either the allophonic difference I have> >> (and I guess m-w.com has my setup, from what Matthew has to say) or> >> those who really DO have an /i/. We've talked about the raising of /> >> ae/> /e/ before /N/ before, and again, nasality + velarity does that.> >> Wing and English, historically, get their vowel from an earlier> >> raising process changing /EN/ to /IN/ in Middle English.> >>> >> Paul> >>> >>> >> On Aug 28, 2008, at 5:56 PM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:> >>> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header> >>> -----------------------> >>> Sender: American Dialect Society> >>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas> >>> Subject: Re: Chinglish> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------> >>> ---------> >>>> >>> Thanks Terry,> >>>> >>> Right. The term "English linguist" is said by the US and maybe the> >>> UK majority as ~Eenglish leengwist~ as can be heard in m-w.com.> >>> It's been going on for years. Gene Kelly said "Seeeeengin' in the> >>> rain. Just seeeengin' in the rain." In Spamalot they correct the> >>> pronunciation of "England" as ~Eeeeenglind, accentuating the ~ee.> >>>> >>> I think the culprit here causing the pronunciation of ~ee instead> >>> of ~i for "ing" is not the "n" but the "g". There is no problem> >>> saying short "i" ~i before "n" as in "winch", "since", "chintz" -> >>> that's a normal "n" nasal with the tongue tip on the top gums. But> >>> saying a "g" after "n" makes the back of the tongue touch the velar> >>> top palate way back at the top of the mouth, a hard trick when the> >>> preceding sound, "n", wants the tongue tip to touch the top gums.> >>> This is a hard transition. So the mouth cheats in anticipation of> >>> saying the "g" in "ing" and squeezes the "i" through the tongue and> >>> palate and the "n" through the tongue and palate to let the tongue> >>> get to the "g" at the back of the palate. The squeezed "i" comes> >>> out ~ee, and the "n" and "g" sound a bit different as well.> >>>> >>> It appears that pronunciation of any sound depends mostly on> >>> subsequent sound/s.> >>>> >>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+> >>> See truespel.com - and the 4 truespel books plus "Occasional Poems"> >>> at authorhouse.com.> >>>> >>>> Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 12:45:51 -0400> >>>> From: t.irons at MOREHEADSTATE.EDU> >>>> Subject: Re: Chinglish> >>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> >>>>> >>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header> >>>> -----------------------> >>>> Sender: American Dialect Society> >>>> Poster: Terry Irons> >>>> Subject: Re: Chinglish> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------> >>>> ----------> >>>>> >>>> Folks,> >>>>> >>>> After years of adamantly arguing that the vowel before a velar> >>>> nasal (as> >>>> in the word "linguistics" or "English") is an [I] and not an [i].> >>>> I may> >>>> be coming to a realization that Natalie Maynor experienced as an> >>>> epiphany years ago on the "tennis" court. The vowel may in fact be an> >>>> [i]. I have tried to convince students that what they hear is the> >>>> nasalization which makes the vowel sound perceptually as if it> >>>> were an> >>>> [i] but that in fact it is an [I]. But spectrograms with some> >>>> students belie that claim. While it is true that the nasalization> >>>> lowers the formant, it is also the case that nasalization can> >>>> change the> >>>> articulation. The lowering of the velum to allow air flow in the> >>>> nasal> >>>> cavity effectively changes the shape of the oral cavity and in effect> >>>> raises the articulatory position of the preceding vowel.> >>>>> >>>> BTW, I had the discussion in class today with a student who argues> >>>> that> >>>> he says English with an [i] not an [I]. I tried to get him to use the> >>>> words "scene" and "sin" to support my view. He remains a bit> >>>> confused,> >>>> but I have to acknowledge that his pronunciation, while not the> >>>> same as> >>>> the vowel in "scene" is in fact closer to the vowel in "scene"> >>>> than it> >>>> is to the vowel in "sin."> >>>>> >>>> --> >>>> Virtually, Terry> >>>> (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)> >>>> =(*)> >>>> Terry Lynn Irons t.irons at morehead-st.edu> >>>> Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164> >>>> Snail Mail: 150 University BLVD UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351> >>>> (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)> >>>> =(*)> >>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------> >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org> >>>> >>> _________________________________________________________________> >>> Get thousands of games on your PC, your mobile phone, and the web> >>> with Windows(R).> >>> http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588800/direct/01/> >>>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------> >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org> >>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org> >> > _________________________________________________________________> > Talk to your Yahoo! Friends via Windows Live Messenger. Find out how.> > http://www.windowslive.com/explore/messenger?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_messenger_yahoo_082008> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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