Who's diddling and how?

Fri Jul 18 00:44:15 UTC 2008

>>A. "Omigod! They're Xing!"
>>B. "Omigod! He's Xing her!"
>>C. "Omigod! She's Xing him!"

>        While A and B seem in the abstract to be far more likely, I would
> think that C would become the exclamation of choice if the woman were
> well-known to the speaker and the man were not.
>

Would there be a difference in preference for B/C based on the viewer's
gender?  One might suppose that the viewer would identify with the actor of
the same-gender.  In such a case the viewer would construct a descriptive
sentence around the person (subject) with whom he/she most identifies.

 So female viewers would describe with C more often than B, while males
would choose B preferentially over B.

Has this been studied before with different (not as explicit) verbs?

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 7:59 AM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:

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> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> Subject:      Re: Who's diddling and how?
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> It certainly seems as though an important factor is what additional
> information there is in the text (including assumptions about gender
> from names), in the context of the utterance, and in the hearer's
> experience (cultural. sexual, etc.).  An increasingly interesting lab
> experiment must be on the way.
>
> Joel
>
> At 7/16/2008 10:18 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
> >At 1:51 AM +0000 7/17/08, ronbutters at aol.com wrote:
> >>One way of describing this is that transitive FUCK is marked for
> >>-MASC & +FEM subject. So without further info, "Chris loved fucking
> >>Lynn" will be assumed to indicate a male subject, at least for older
> >>speakers. However, "Marcia loves fucking Fred" sounds perfectly
> >>unambiguous to me.
> >>Of course, "further information" may also include folks knowledge
> >>of--and imagination of events in--the real world.
> >>
> >>Still, if both fuckers are of the same sex, then the subject seems
> >>to me to be the inserter and the object the insertee: "Tom loves
> >>fucking Fred" puts Tom on the inside unless there is other info to
> >>the contrary. In other words, the insertion aspect of fucking seems
> >>more fundamental than who is on top. But maybe that has more to do
> >>with my world view than my knowledge of English.
> >
> >And as noted, it's not just if they're of the same sex, but if
> >equipment differences can be neutralized in one way or another.  So
> >"Chris loves fucking Dana with a {dildo/strap-on}" turns Chris into
> >the inserter and Dana the insertee regardless of their sex or
> >position.
> >
> >LH
> >
> >>------Original Message------
> >>From: Laurence Horn
> >>Sender: ADS-L
> >>To: ADS-L
> >>ReplyTo: ADS-L
> >>Sent: Jul 16, 2008 1:51 PM
> >>Subject: Re: [ADS-L] Who's diddling and how?
> >>
> >>At 1:35 PM -0400 7/16/08, Joel S. Berson wrote:
> >>>At 7/16/2008 01:24 PM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>To return to the original query.
> >>>>
> >>>>Try this X-rated thought experiment on your wise-ass students (18
> >>>>and over only, please!).
> >>>
> >>>An insufficient poll, due to one limitation in its wording.
> >>>
> >>>Imagine you're walking along an isolated forest path. You turn a
> >>>corner and discover, to your surprise, a naked couple "doing it" in
> >>>some semblance of a female on top position.
> >>
> >>And especially if she is (with the assistance of technology) doing
> >>the penetrating...  (In fact, that situation might render the first
> >>part of the exclamation even more likely.)
> >>
> >>Granted, Jon and others will correctly observe that these are
> >>atypical contexts, at least until the culture evolves...
> >>
> >>LH
> >>
> >>>Now imagine that "X" in
> >>>the following sentences stands for the "f-word."  Which of the
> >>>following exclamations is most likely to be produced by your brain?
> >>>(No other exclamation allowed for the present purpose.):
> >>>
> >>>A. "Omigod! They're Xing!"
> >>>B. "Omigod! He's Xing her!"
> >>>C. "Omigod! She's Xing him!"
> >>>
> >>>I wonder if C would move up past B, or perhaps -- depending on how
> >>>religiously fundamentalist the thinker is -- even past A.
> >>>
> >>>Joel
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Imagine you're walking along an isolated forest path. You turn a
> >>>>corner and discover, to your surprise, a naked couple "doing it" in
> >>>>the some semblance of either the missionary or canine-related
> >>>>position.  Now imagine that "X" in the following sentences stands
> >>>>for the "f-word."  Which of the following exclamations is most
> >>>>likely to be produced by your brain? (No other exclamation allowed
> >>>>for the present purpose.):
> >>>>
> >>>>A. "Omigod! They're Xing!"
> >>>>B. "Omigod! He's Xing her!"
> >>>>C. "Omigod! She's Xing him!"
> >>>>
> >>>>I strongly suspect that this is the order in which the utterances
> >>>>will in most cases occur to them. I further predict that, when time
> >>>>machines become inexpensive and practicable, you will find that most
> >>>>speakers you test going back to the 16th C. (and earlier if you
> >>>>replace the "f-word" with a period synonym like "swive") will yield
> >>>>comparable results.
> >>>>
> >>>>Choice C seems to me unlikely in this situation, but hardly
> >>>>"ungrammatical" or even grammatically (as opposed to
> >>>>psychologically) peculiar.
> >>>>
> >>>>My belief based on HDAS exx., etc.: Such verbs most typically take
> >>>>masculine subjects (for what I believe are obvious physiological
> >>>>reasons), but in appropriate contexts feminine subjects are also
> idomatic.
> >>>>
> >>>>JL
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>
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> >>
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