Is it Irish to be Cuil?

[Paul A Johnston, Jr.]

This may be an Ulster thing, but aren't there dialects who represent single slender /n/ as a plain old alveolar nasal, as opposed to the broad /n/, which would be a dental one?  Hone would work, then.

I've heard the dentalization of /t d n/ that many New Yorkers have (me too) blamed on a number of immigrant languages, but one of them is Irish--that they came over having replaced English /t d n/ with broad rather than slender (presumably palatalized for them) realizations.  Such speakers would probably merge they/day, thin/tin as well.  The Italians and others from language backgrounds with dentals would have presumably reinforced this tendency.  (Where pronouns with /D-/ are concerned, this might be older in NYC; Cockneys have said dis, dat, dese, dem for a long time, and a lot of Londoners came to NY and NJ in the early 18c.)

Paul Johnstin

----- Original Message -----
From: Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
Date: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 3:22 pm
Subject: Re: Is it Irish to be Cuil?

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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Is it Irish to be Cuil?
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
>
> _Cúil_ yields [kul'], with "oo" followed by a "slender" or
> palatalized/l/. "Arse" / "ass" is _cóin_ or _cón_. I've seen
> bumper stickers here
> in the Boston area reading "Póg mo chóin," roughly, "Pogue ma [m@]
> hone," the original name of the Irish rockers, "The Pogues," till
> someone narked the meaning to the English authorities.
>
> I don't think that "hone" demonstrates a preference for /n/ over
> palatalized /ñ/, because there's no obvious way to spell word-final
> /ñ/ in English. Since Boston bumper stickers have _-in_, I assume
> that[ñ] is the preferred pronunciation among ordinary speakers.
> Dictionaries seem not to have a preference. They tend to show "X, also
> Y," etc.
>
> -Wilson
>
> On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
> wrote:> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---
> --------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > Subject:      Re: Is it Irish to be Cuil?
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> >
> > At 7/30/2008 12:08 PM, Laurence Horn wrote:
> >>At 11:57 AM -0400 7/30/08, Joel S. Berson wrote:
> >>>At 7/30/2008 11:39 AM, RonButters at AOL.COM wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>If they want it pronounced like "cool" they will do well to
> use a different
> >>>>brand name in   the Spanish-speaking countries
> >>>>(and even the French might see
> >>>>it as an indecent pun).
> >>
> >>Well, in French _cul_ is 'ass' (with the fundament, not donkey
> >>reference) or 'arse' if you prefer,
> >
> > And an on-line Irish dictionary tells me "cúil"
> > is "rear (adj,
> > n)"!  http://www.englishirishdictionary.com/
> > Someone should put this out on the Web.
> >
> > Joel
> >
> >>but I'm not sure the pun really
> >>comes up since the pronunciation is /ky/ (with a front-rounded vowel
> >>and no final consonant).  In any case, _cul_ appears elsewhere with
> >>the obscene meaning bleached out, as in _cul de sac_ 'dead end',
> lit.>>'bag's ass'.  I guess _culo_ would be more problematic, but
> Romance>>speakers must be used to English speakers saying _cool_,
> after all.
> >>
> >>LH
> >>
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