Subjunctive(?): not critical that

Sat Mar 22 21:14:38 UTC 2008

If Ron ask if I reconsider my rhetorical stance,
gladly. The facts, however, be(s) intact.

dInIs

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>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Poster:       ronbutters at AOL.COM
>Subject:      Re: Subjunctive(?): not critical that
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>
>I hope that Dennis rethink this?
>
>Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dennis Preston <preston at MSU.EDU>
>
>Date:         Sat, 22 Mar 2008 16:40:43
>To:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>Subject:      Re: [ADS-L] Subjunctive(?): not critical that
>
>
>This entire message assumes that the subjunctive
>is intact in Spanish and apparently used by all,
>unfortunately on the basis of a single Spanish
>teacher's instructions! (My favorite bit of
>sociolinguistics for quite some time is is "How
>seriously? My Spanish teacher...."). That would
>equate studying the drift of living languages by
>asking what their teachers taught. In fact, the
>Spanish subjunctive it is rapidly disappearing in
>nearly all varieties of spoken Spanish. Good
>riddance!
>
>dInIs
>
>
>
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>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       "JAMES A. LANDAU Netscape. Just the Net You Need."
>>                <JJJRLandau at NETSCAPE.COM>
>>Subject:      Re: Subjunctive(?): not critical that
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Various ADS-L members have contributed the following to this thread:
>>
>>>    > A practical reason for retaining the subjunctive is the fact that
>>>    > other languages have it or an equivalent. These foreign subjunctives
>>>    > are difficult to grasp, even when you're an active user of the English
>>>    > subjunctive, which itself can be difficult to grasp, as this thread
>>>    > shows.
>>>
>>>
>>>   So if using the English subjunctive doesn't
>>>help with foreign subjunctives,
>>>    then what is the practical reason for retaining the English subjunctive?
>>>
>>>
>>>Well, to keep sentences like the following from falling together:
>>>
>>>       She insists that he take his medicine.
>>>       She insists that he takes his medicine.
>>>
>>>among other reasons.
>>>
>>>Don't everybody agree that it don't be no reason for not even no
>>>(pswaydo-)standard in English.
>>
>>Spanish is a language that takes the subjunctive
>>seriously.  How seriously?  My high school
>>Spanish teacher had us spend several weeks
>>studying nothing but the subjunctive, ending
>>with the longest take-home exam I have ever had.
>>It was at the end of those weeks that I first
>>felt that I spoke Spanish, because I could now
>>say so much more than before the exercise
>>started.
>>
>>An example, from Garcia Lorca  íŸ™Aunque sepa
>>los caminos, yo nunque llegare a CordobaíŸ˜.
>>(íŸ™Even though I may know the roads, I shall
>>never arrive at CordovaíŸ˜).  The verb
>>íŸ™sepaíŸ˜, which I rendered above as íŸ™may
>>knowíŸ˜, is in the subjunctive.  By using this
>>form of the verb, Garcia Lorca was able to
>>suggest something quite different from an
>>indicative íŸ™Even though I *am* familiar with
>>the roads, I shall never arrive at CordovaíŸ˜.
>>
>>What purpose does the subjunctive serve in Spanish?
>>1.      setting the, uh, mood of a would-be or false-to-fact statement
>>2.      (much less often) making explicit
>>whether the speaker is speaking factually or
>>counter-factually.
>>
>>íŸ™She insists that he take his medicine.íŸ˜ is
>>subjunctive in that he apparently refuses or
>>forgets or something to take medicine.  íŸ™She
>>insists that he takes his medicineíŸ˜ is
>>factual, in that she is stating that taking
>>medicine is an action he actually performs.
>>
>>The problem in English is twofold.
>>1.      the subjunctive in English is so
>>vestigial that most people simply woníŸÙt
>>recognize the difference in meaning between
>  >íŸ™that he takeíŸ˜ and íŸ™that he takesíŸ˜.
>>2.      the subjunctive only differs from the
>>indicative in the singular.  íŸ™She insists that
>>they take their medicineíŸ˜---is that indicative
>>or subjunctive?
>>
>>Hence I say that the so-called íŸ™subjunctive
>>moodíŸ˜ in English is not a true subjunctive but
>>rather a grammatical idiosyncracy which is
>>rarely used to distinguish two moods of a verb,
>>and should be referred to as a
>>íŸ™pseudo-subjunctiveíŸ˜.
>>
>>How then does an English speaker express what a
>>Spanish-speaker would use the subjunctive for?
>>By using the aspects of the English verb.  The
>>true subjunctive in English can be expressed in
>>some contexts by using the íŸ™mayíŸ˜ and
>>íŸ™mightíŸ˜ aspects of the verb: íŸ™even though
>>I *may know* the roadsíŸ˜ or by using the
>>emphatic/negative aspect, íŸ™She insists that he
>>does take his medicineíŸ˜ as opposed to using
>>other aspects íŸ™She insists that he should take
>>his medicineíŸ˜ or íŸ™She insists that he must
>>take his medicineíŸ˜.  This use of aspect also
>>works in the plural:  íŸ™She insists that they
>>do take their medicineíŸ˜ as opposed to íŸ™She
>>insists that they must take their medicineíŸ˜.
>>
>>Adverbs can also be used: íŸ™She insists that he
>>really takes his medicineíŸ˜ versus íŸ™She
>>insists that he better take his medicine.íŸ˜
>>
>>             James A. Landau
>>             test engineer
>>             Northrop-Grumman Information Technology
>>             8025 Black Horse Pike, Suite 300
>>             West Atlantic City NJ 08232 USA
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>
>--
>Dennis R. Preston
>University Distinguished Professor
>Department of English
>Morrill Hall 15-C
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing, MI 48864 USA
>
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>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

--
Dennis R. Preston
University Distinguished Professor
Department of English
Morrill Hall 15-C
Michigan State University
East Lansing, MI 48864 USA

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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org