Consonant Cluster Simplification is widespread

Sat Sep 6 02:45:27 UTC 2008

Given some of the examples you list, I agree:  we're talking about two
different phenomena.  I don't agree in general that voicing is as
distinctive in English as consonant strength--you can predict the
former from the latter almost completely, at least within obstruents,
but I suspect that's a peripheral argument in this case.

Herb

On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 9:41 PM,  <RonButters at aol.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       RonButters at AOL.COM
> Subject:      Consonant Cluster Simplification is widespread
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Maybe   am missing something here, but it seems to me that we are talking=20
> about different phenomena here. In this thread have not been talking about t=
> he=20
> diachronics of final consonants in English but about the variable synchronic=
> =20
> phenomenon whereby WASP becomes WAS', TASK becomes TAS', LOST becomes LOS',=20=
> COLD=20
> becomes COL', LIVES becomes LIVE', FIND becomes FIN', etc. For many speakers=
> ,=20
> this happens sometimes but not all the time, depending on (1) the phonologic=
> al=20
> environment that follows and (2) the speaking style. High incidence also=20
> correlates with sociolinguistic variables, including region. Morpheme bounda=
> ries=20
> often inhibit the application of the rule (though we get "Jack Johnson car"=20=
> for=20
> "Jack Johnson's car"). The relationship between C1 and C2 is usually=20
> described as one of voicing/unvoicing, perhaps only because that is a=20
> better-understood category than fortis/lenis and seems to be synchronically=20=
> equally accurate=20
> as a predictor. Since we do not have English words ending in /sb/, /sd/,/sg/=
> ,=20
> etc., the CCR rule of course does not apply, so they seem to be irrelevant t=
> o=20
> the rule.=20
>
>
> In a message dated 9/5/08 8:06:57 PM, hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM writes:
>
>
>> I agree that t/d/ deletion is a misnomer, but for different reasons.
>> Final cluster simplification drops final LENIS consonants from
>> clusters, especially if there is a following consonant.=A0 So we'll get
>> Arnold's "san' dollar" but not "pin' bottle" from "pint bottle."=A0 But
>> it's been a long diachronic development. We get final -g, except for a
>> few dialects, only morpheme-internally and before a derivational
>> suffix, as has been discussed recently on the Chinglish thread.=A0 So
>> deletion of -g in clusters occurs only after nasals in the
>> environments I just described.=A0 Final -b has been lost so consistently
>> that it occurs finally in clusters only after -l-, as in "bulb," but
>> it typically doesn't delete.=A0 So it's down to coronals, and they
>> delete pretty freely.=A0 But there's another wrinkle.=A0 A lot of
>> phonological analyses confuse the issue by insisting that the
>> fundamental distinction among obstruents is voicing, and English
>> spelling rather supports this with final clusters spelled -sp, -st,
>> and sk, but no -sb, sd, sg.=A0 But in fact, as quite a few descriptions
>> have demonstrated, going back to a 1957 paper by Halle, Hughes and
>> Radley, the contrast is not one of voicing but one of articulatory
>> strength, or, in more recent terms, fortis vs. lenis.=A0 In final
>> obstruent clusters in English the final obstruent has to be lenis.
>> IPA doesn't provide symbols for a fortis/lenis contrast, so we have to
>> redefine, by means of language-specific conventions, the IPA voiceless
>> obstruent series as fortis and the IPA voiced obstruent series as
>> lenis.=A0 Fortis obstruents in English are always voiceless; lenes are
>> voiced or voiceless depending on the neighboring glottal states.
>> Phonologically, then, those final obstruent clusters ARE /sb/, /sd/,
>> /sg/, where /bdg/ represent voiceless lenes.=A0 In final cluster
>> simplification, it's the final lenis that deletes, which is why words
>> like "lamp," "pint," "junk," etc. don't simplify.
>>=20
>> Herb
>>=20
>> On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 2:33 PM,=A0 <RonButters at aol.com> wrote:
>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header=20
>> -----------------------
>> > Sender:=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> > Poster:=A0 =A0 =A0=A0 RonButters at AOL.COM
>> > Subject:=A0 =A0 =A0 Consonant Cluster Simplification is widespread
>> >=20
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -----
>> >
>> > Consonant Cluster Simplification is found in all varieties of American=
> =3D20
>> > English, especially Southern and South Midland (as well as AAVE). In oth=
> er=20
>> v=3D
>> > arieties=3D20
>> > it occurs variably but in low amounts, the highest frequency being in=
> =3D20
>> > environments before a word that begins with the same or similar consonan=
> t=20
>> as=3D
>> >=A0 C2. For=3D20
>> > example, for most Americans, SAND DOLLAR becomes SAN' DOLLAR, FEND DOGS=20
>> AWAY=3D
>> > =3D20
>> > becomes FEN' DOGS AWAY, BREAST DOCTOR becomes BREAS' DOCTOR, etc. But yo=
> u=20
>> wi=3D
>> > ll=3D20
>> > also hear, e.g., WRIST WATCH becomes WRIS' WATCH. Some words are=20
>> particularl=3D
>> > y=3D20
>> > susceptible to CCS, e.g., AND becomes AN'. Of course, this sort of CCR=20
>> could=3D
>> > =3D20
>> > arguably be seen as a part of the larger sandhi-reduction of homorganic=20
>> stop=3D
>> > s=3D20
>> > across word boundaries, e.g., DOG CATCHER becomes DO' CATCHER.
>> >
>> > What Arnold meant by "t/d deletion" is not clear: "t deletion" takes=20
>> place=3D20
>> > when "n't" becomes "n'", but "d deletion" is simply a part of CCS. Unles=
> s=20
>> I'=3D
>> > m=3D20
>> > mistaken, there is no such thing as "t/d deletion" as such, so it could=20
>> not=3D20=3D
>> > very=3D20
>> > well be "widespread."
>> >
>> > In a message dated 9/4/08 10:50:33 PM, strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM writes:
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 9:09 PM,=3DA0 <RonButters at aol.com> wrote:
>> >>=3D20
>> >> ... But then you started talking about final consonant cluster
>> >> simplification, in a variety which I have never heard.=3DA0 But that ma=
> kes
>> >> sense now too after having taken a look at the index to Fromkin &
>> >> Rodman's book (damn Google books snippet view being no help), I see
>> >> that this CCS is a feature of AAVE.=3DA0 My experiences with AAVE are
>> >> mostly limited to my growing up in Cincinnati, OH, in the 70s, and
>> >> what I heard every day on the subway, etc. when I lived in NYC several
>> >> years ago.=3DA0 So while t/d deletion is very widespread (appearing in
>> >> most English dialects), CCS is not, which accounts for my not being
>> >> aware of it.=3DA0 (I've also not read much about AAVE.)
>> >>=3D20
>> >> --
>> >> Randy Alexander
>> >> Jilin City, China
>> >> My Manchu studies blog:
>> >> http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu
>> >>=3D20
>> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >>=3D20
>> >>=3D20
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > **************
>> > Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,=3D20
>> > plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
>> >=A0 =A0=A0 =3D20
>> > (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=3D3Daolsty00050000000014)
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> >
>>=20
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>=20
>>=20
>
>
>
>
> **************
> Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog,=20
> plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.
>     =20
> (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=3Daolsty00050000000014)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org