"Sambo" 1657, antedates OED 1704-

[Wilson Gray]

"But this merely begs the question, in the old sense."

So, the Wikipedia article *doesn't* beg the question and *does* tell
us something useful about the ultimate origin of the name, "Sambo"?
Who knew? I didn't even realize that the story was to be taken at face
value.

-Wilson

On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 6:14 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
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> Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> Subject:      Re: "Sambo" 1657, antedates OED 1704-
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>
> Wilson, I believe you've misread the Wikipedia article.  The
> paragraph you quoted refers to the model for the name "Sambo" as used
> in "Lttle Black Sambo".  The reference to "the height of the British
> Empire" can hardly date back to 1657, or the 1704 of the OED's
> earliest citation, or the 1735 of "J. ATKINS Voy. to Guinea, Brazil &
> W. Indies 170 If you look strange and are niggardly of your Drams,
> you frighten him; Sambo is gone, he never cares to treat with dry
> lips."  The next section of the Wikipedia article, "Alternative
> origins", discusses the same origin from Spanish and Portuguese that
> the OED supposes.
>
> As for the possibility that "Sambo" is the Negro's actual name, I do
> agree that the excerpts I quoted do not rule that out.  One might
> have to read much of Ligon's book, looking at how he uses the names
> of other persons, particularly blacks, to decide whether he is using
> "Sambo" stereotypically.
>
> At the very least, I think one can argue that it fits the OED's
> definition for sense 2:  "A *nickname* for a Negro."
>
> Joel
>
> At 9/11/2008 03:45 PM, Wilson Gray wrote:
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>>FWIW, it seems to me that
>>
>>"This _Negre Sambo_"
>>
>>does make it possible to interpret "Sambo" as the slave's actual name:
>>"This Negre[,] Sambo [by name,] ...". Unless, of course, there were,
>>at the time, a set of individuals that were generally referred to as
>>"Sambos" and "Negre" specifies a member of the subset, "Negre Sambos."
>>The nursery tale is no help, since "black Sambo" has the same
>>structure as "Negre Sambo" or "ching-chong Chinaman" and such.
>>
>>Wikipedia:
>>
>>The origins of the word "Sambo" stem from an occurrence believed to be
>>at the height of the British Empire. An unknown slave ship had docked
>>in the then-popular Morecambe Bay area to buy various [and] sundry
>>items; once back at sea it was noticed that a black member of the
>>ship's staff had been left ashore. This man's name was Sambo; shunned
>>by the people of Morecambe, he was made to live out the remainder of
>>his days on the outskirts of the villages at that time. To this day
>>there is a monument known as 'Sambo's Grave' on the coast of the
>>Lancashire village of Heysham.
>>
>>But this merely begs the question, in the old sense.
>>
>>-Wilson
>
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