Odd rhyme claim

Jonathan Lighter wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
Wed Dec 16 17:14:12 UTC 2009 

Or a contemporary philosopher wishing to put the "awe back in thought."

JL

On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 11:42 AM, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>wrote:

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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Odd rhyme claim
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 10:58 AM -0500 12/16/09, Joel S. Berson wrote:
> >At 12/16/2009 12:21 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> >>As Alice says, for _patriot_ actually to "rhyme" with _thought_, there
> would
> >>have to be a noticeable secondary stress on the final syllable plus a
> >>unreduced or at least barely reduced vowel.
> >
> >That (I think!) is what I'm imagining I might hear here in
> >Boston.  And if we say pay-tree-AH-tik -- and the local assistant DA
> >says dee-fen-DANT -- why not PAY-tree-OTT?
> >
>
> I can imagine a high-end recreational boat purveyor urging their
> upscale clientele to "Put the Yacht Back in Patri-OTT"
>
> LH
>
> >>Here again is the stanza:
> >>
> >>Though loth to grieve
> >>The evil time's sole patriot,
> >>I cannot leave
> >>My buried thought
> >>For the priest's cant,
> >>Or statesman's rant.
> >>
> >>Joel may be right: / at / ("ott")  in both words.  But / at / in
> _thought_
> >>in Concord in 1847? Hard for me to imagine.
> >
> >Dunno.  Is there an English or Irish dialect with that
> >pronunciation?  Did Emerson affect an English pronunciation?  There
> >were Irish immigrant workers camped at Walden Pond when the railroad
> >was being built through there.   The web tells me the Fitchburg
> >railroad laid tracks past Walden the year before Thoreau took up
> >residence, and he resided at Walden from 1845 to 1847.
> >
> >Joel
> >
> >>JL
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>  >>On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:56 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>  ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>  -----------------------
> >>>  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>  Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> >>>  Subject:      Re: Odd rhyme claim
> >>>
> >>>
>
> >>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>>  At 12/15/2009 11:00 PM, Jerome Foster wrote:
> >>>  >For a current example listen to Click and Clack, the Magliozzi
> brothers on
> >>>  >NPR.
> >>>
> >>>  Do they say "ought" ("awt") -- which I can't relate to "patriot",
> >>>  even in New England, or "ott", as in the baseball player Mel -- which
> >>>  I can imagine in New England for both "patriot" and "thought"
> >>>  ("thott" -- the vowel a little like "cah" for "carr"?)  I'll have to
> >>>  listen next Saturday.
> >>>
> >>>  Joel
> >>>
> >>>  >----- Original Message -----
> >>>  >From: "Tom Zurinskas" <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> >>>  >To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>  >Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 7:22 PM
> >>>  >Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
> >>>  >
> >>>  >
> >>>  >>---------------------- Information from the mail
> >>>  >>header -----------------------
> >>>  >>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>  >>Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> >>>  >>Subject:      Re: Odd rhyme claim
> >>>
> >>>  >>----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>---------------
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >>"Patriot" rhyming with thought" wouldn't work for me from Conn. but
> for
> >>>  my
> >>>  >>=
> >>>  >>neighbor from Mass it would.  For her "ot" would be spoken "ought".
>  The
> >>>  >>le=
> >>>  >>tter "o" often took the "awe" sound.  She would call me ~Taumee (~au
> as
> >>>  in
> >>>  >>=
> >>>  >>"awe") and her son as ~Baubee (Bobby).  This is over 40 years ago.
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >>Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL7+=20
> >>>  >>see truespel.com phonetic spelling
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >>
> >>>  >>=20
> >>>  >>=20
> >>>  >>>Date: Tue=2C 15 Dec 2009 16:27:28 -0500
> >>>  >>>From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
> >>>  >>>Subject: Odd rhyme claim
> >>>  >>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >>>  >>>=20
> >>>  >>>---------------------- Information from the mail
> >>>  >>>header -----------------=
> >>>  >>------
> >>>  >>>Sender: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >>>  >>>Poster: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >>>  >>>Subject: Odd rhyme claim
> >>>
> >>>  >>>---------------------------------------------------------------
> >>----------=
> >>>  >>------
> >>>  >>>=20
> >>>  >>>The poet John Hollander asserts that New England is "the only
> region of
> >>>  >>>t=
> >>>  >>he
> >>>  >>>nation" (or was in Emerson's time) "in whose dialect _patriot_
> rhymes
> >>>  >>>wit=
> >>>  >>h
> >>>  >>>_thought_."
> >>>  >>>=20
> >>>  >>>Really? I'd have guessed that _patriot_ "rhymes" with _thought_
> nowhere
> >>>  >>>o=
> >>>  >>n
> >>>  >>>Panet Earth. Or is Hollander being facetious at Emerson's expense?
> Yeah=
> >>  > >>=2C
> >>>  >>>that must be it. Sorry.
> >>>  >>>=20
> >>>  >>>On the other hand....I'm curious.
> >>>  >>>=20
> >>>  >>>JL
> >>>  >>>=20
> >>>  >>>------------------------------------------------------------
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> >>>  >
> >>>
> >>>  >-----------------------------------------------------------------
> >>---------------
> >>>  >
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> >>>  12/15/09
> >>>  >11:58:00
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>"There You Go Again...Using Reason on the Planet of the Duck-Billed
> >>Platypus"
> >>
> >>------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
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> >The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
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> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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"There You Go Again...Using Reason on the Planet of the Duck-Billed
Platypus"

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