Odd rhyme claim - stress

Thu Dec 17 16:22:30 UTC 2009

I'm wondering about stress.  I would think that the last syllable for PAY-tree-ought would not have secondary stress on ought just because the vowel is "awe" instead of "ah" or "ih".  I would assume pitch would not go up so stress would not be indicated.  If PAY-tree-ott (ott as in "otter") or PAY-tree-it do not have secondary stress on the last syllable, why not with PAY-tree-ought.

Interestingly, in USA accent the word "patriot" would have a regular first "t" ~t but a glottalized second t (~').  In "patriotic", the second "t" becomes a ~d.

Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
see truespel.com phonetic spelling

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Tom,
> You can, I can, and I'm sure Emerson could too. But not when a poetic rhyme is at stake. And this is a long tradition, too. I'm working on a book about the dialect of the York Plays, composed between 1376 and the mid fifteenth century. They're in rhymed verse. The playwrights generally rhyme using their own, Northern English system, but employ Midland rhymes if it suits them. There, you're dealing with the interplay of two different full dialects. As I recall, Shakespeare could use rhymes reflecting currently-in-progress Great Vowel Shift changes, or use the old values, according as to whether it enables him to rhyme the right words, too. Emerson is doing something like that, if not EXACTLY the same thing.
>
> Yours,
> Paul Johnston

>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -----------
>>
>> I don't understand why "patriot" spoken as PAY-tree-ought would
>> have secondary stress on the ought. I can say it without that.
>> What is stress anywhay?
>>
>>
>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
>> see truespel.com phonetic spelling
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>>> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:58:48 -0500
>>> From: Berson at ATT.NET
>>> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ----------
>> -------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: "Joel S. Berson"
>>> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -------------
>>>
>>> At 12/16/2009 12:21 AM, Jonathan Lighter wrote:
>>>>As Alice says, for _patriot_ actually to "rhyme" with _thought_,
>> there would
>>>>have to be a noticeable secondary stress on the final syllable
>> plus a
>>>>unreduced or at least barely reduced vowel.
>>>
>>> That (I think!) is what I'm imagining I might hear here in
>>> Boston. And if we say pay-tree-AH-tik -- and the local assistant DA
>>> says dee-fen-DANT -- why not PAY-tree-OTT?
>>>
>>>
>>>>Here again is the stanza:
>>>>
>>>>Though loth to grieve
>>>>The evil time's sole patriot,
>>>>I cannot leave
>>>>My buried thought
>>>>For the priest's cant,
>>>>Or statesman's rant.
>>>>
>>>>Joel may be right: / at / ("ott") in both words. But / at / in
>> _thought_>>in Concord in 1847? Hard for me to imagine.
>>>
>>> Dunno. Is there an English or Irish dialect with that
>>> pronunciation? Did Emerson affect an English pronunciation? There
>>> were Irish immigrant workers camped at Walden Pond when the railroad
>>> was being built through there. The web tells me the Fitchburg
>>> railroad laid tracks past Walden the year before Thoreau took up
>>> residence, and he resided at Walden from 1845 to 1847.
>>>
>>> Joel
>>>
>>>
>>>>JL
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 11:56 PM, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: "Joel S. Berson"
>>>>> Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> --------------
>>>>>
>>>>> At 12/15/2009 11:00 PM, Jerome Foster wrote:
>>>>>>For a current example listen to Click and Clack, the Magliozzi
>> brothers on
>>>>>>NPR.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do they say "ought" ("awt") -- which I can't relate to "patriot",
>>>>> even in New England, or "ott", as in the baseball player Mel --
>> which>>> I can imagine in New England for both "patriot" and "thought"
>>>>> ("thott" -- the vowel a little like "cah" for "carr"?) I'll
>> have to
>>>>> listen next Saturday.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joel
>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>From: "Tom Zurinskas"
>>>>>>To:
>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2009 7:22 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>>>>>header -----------------------
>>>>>>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: Odd rhyme claim
>>>>>
>>>>>>>---------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>>>> ---------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Patriot" rhyming with thought" wouldn't work for me from
>> Conn. but for
>>>>> my
>>>>>>>=
>>>>>>>neighbor from Mass it would. For her "ot" would be spoken
>> "ought". The
>>>>>>>le=
>>>>>>>tter "o" often took the "awe" sound. She would call me ~Taumee
>> (~au as
>>>>> in
>>>>>>>=
>>>>>>>"awe") and her son as ~Baubee (Bobby). This is over 40 years ago.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL7+=20
>>>>>>>see truespel.com phonetic spelling
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>Date: Tue=2C 15 Dec 2009 16:27:28 -0500
>>>>>>>>From: wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM
>>>>>>>>Subject: Odd rhyme claim
>>>>>>>>To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>>>>>>header -----------------=
>>>>>>>------
>>>>>>>>Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>>Poster: Jonathan Lighter
>>>>>>>>Subject: Odd rhyme claim
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>>>> ----------=
>>>>>>>------
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>The poet John Hollander asserts that New England is "the only
>> region of
>>>>>>>>t=
>>>>>>>he
>>>>>>>>nation" (or was in Emerson's time) "in whose dialect
>> _patriot_ rhymes
>>>>>>>>wit=
>>>>>>>h
>>>>>>>>_thought_."
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>Really? I'd have guessed that _patriot_ "rhymes" with
>> _thought_ nowhere
>>>>>>>>o=
>>>>>>>n
>>>>>>>>Panet Earth. Or is Hollander being facetious at Emerson's
>> expense? Yeah=
>>>>>>>=2C
>>>>>>>>that must be it. Sorry.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>On the other hand....I'm curious.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>JL
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>>_________________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>Hotmail: Free=2C trusted and rich email service.
>>>>>>>http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/171222984/direct/01/=
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>----------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>>>> ---------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>No virus found in this incoming message.
>>>>>>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>>>>>>Version: 9.0.716 / Virus Database: 270.14.109/2567 - Release Date:
>>>>> 12/15/09
>>>>>>11:58:00
>>>>>>
>>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>"There You Go Again...Using Reason on the Planet of the Duck-Billed
>>>>Platypus"
>>>>
>>>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.
>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141664/direct/01/
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/177141665/direct/01/

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org