Fronted high back vowel /u/

Tom Zurinskas truespel at HOTMAIL.COM
Tue Dec 22 10:18:40 UTC 2009 

If you can grab sounds from talking dictionaries, compare in numbers the vowels in "kin" "king" "keen" or "win" "wing" "wean".  Which two are closest?


Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
see truespel.com phonetic spelling




> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Randall Gess
> Subject: Re: Fronted high back vowel /u/
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I perceived the vowel I heard in "movie" as similar to French /y/,
> which I understand to be around F1 260 and F2 1820. The values I got
> were F1 395 and F2 1816.
>
> Randall
>
>
> Language: Defining dreams for millennia.
>
> Randall Gess
> Professor and Director
> School of Linguistics and Language Studies
> 215 Paterson Hall, Carleton University
> 1125 Colonel By Drive, Ottawa ON K1S 5B6
> Tel: (613) 520-6612 Fax: (613) 520-6641
> Email: randall_gess at carleton.ca
>
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> On 21-Dec-09, at 9:40 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote:
>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>> -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>> Subject: Re: Fronted high back vowel /u/
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I suspect "fronted" /u/ covers a range of sounds. In Central Indiana,
>> the most common variant I hear is a diphthong with a barred-i onset
>> and a barred-u nucleus, little or no change in tongue position but
>> increased rounding. However, I haven't done instrumental work on
>> this, so my description must be taken as anecdotal.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 21, 2009 at 2:06 PM, Gordon, Matthew J.
>> wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>> -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J."
>>> Subject: Re: Fronted high back vowel /u/
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> I think that usually some rounding is retained when fronted so it
>>> might be close to a /y/ or the barred-u (= u with the line through
>>> it).
>>>
>>>
>>> On 12/21/09 12:32 PM, "Tom Zurinskas" wrote:
>>>
>>> To hear these sounds in three different voices go to the vowel
>>> sound chart at http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/course/chapter1/wells/wells.html
>>> But "high" back is not given - just "back".
>>>
>>> What symbol does a "fronted /u/ when saying "food" take from the
>>> diagram above so I can hear it? Or just give me a word in
>>> thefreedictionary.com that has that vowel sound.
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
>>> see truespel.com phonetic spelling
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Tony Au
>>>> Subject: Re: Fronted high back vowel /u/
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Just an anecdote, but I've always noticed a friend of mine (Inland
>>>> Northern
>>>> speaker) has a very fronted /u/ in "food"
>>>>
>>>> Tony
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Herb Stahlke wrote=
>>>> :
>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>>>>> Subject: Re: Fronted high back vowel /u/
>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>>> ------
>>>>>
>>>>> I sing in a community choir in Anderson, IN, and direct a church
>>>>> choir
>>>>> nearby, and /u/-fronting is very widespread in this area. It causes
>>>>> problems for choral conductors, who end up spending valuable
>>>>> rehearsal
>>>>> time fixing choral diction problems like this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Herb
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 10:16 PM, Randall Gess
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>> Poster: Randall Gess
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Fronted high back vowel /u/
>>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>>> ------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder if there is any data on fronting after non-coronals.
>>>>>> The word
>>>>>> I heard it in was "movie".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Language: Defining dreams for millennia.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Randall Gess
>>>>>> Professor and Director
>>>>>> School of Linguistics and Language Studies
>>>>>> 215 Paterson Hall, Carleton University
>>>>>> 1125 Colonel By Drive, Ottawa ON K1S 5B6
>>>>>> Tel: (613) 520-6612 Fax: (613) 520-6641
>>>>>> Email: randall_gess at carleton.ca
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The information in this message, including any attachments, is
>>>>>> privileged and may contain confidential information intended
>>>>>> only for
>>>>>> the person(s) named above. Any other distribution, copying or
>>>>>> disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
>>>>>> recipient or have received this message in error, please notify
>>>>>> Carleton University immediately by reply email at the contact
>>>>>> listed
>>>>>> above and permanently delete the original transmission from us,
>>>>>> including any attachments, without making a copy. Carleton
>>>>>> University
>>>>>> is fully compliant with the Freedom of Information and
>>>>>> Protection of
>>>>>> Privacy Act and appreciates your cooperation in this matter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 20-Dec-09, at 9:20 PM, Gordon, Matthew J. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>> Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J."
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Fronted high back vowel /u/
>>>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>>> ------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My statement was based on my recollection of what Labov and
>>>>>>> colleagues reported in the Atlas of North America English. Notice
>>>>>>> that I didn't claim that every person in every part of the
>>>>>>> country
>>>>>>> outside of the Inland North has fronting of these vowels. I said
>>>>>>> that this pattern was found (i.e. could be heard from some
>>>>>>> speakers)
>>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To check my recollection, I took a look at the ANAE's findings
>>>>>>> (map
>>>>>>> 10.24, p. 101) on fronting of /u/ following coronals (the
>>>>>>> environment most conducive to fronting). They report fronting
>>>>>>> in at
>>>>>>> least one speaker from the following states:
>>>>>>> Alaska, Washington, California, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, So.
>>>>>>> Dakota,
>>>>>>> Nebraska, Utah, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma,
>>>>>>> Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, Minnesota, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio,
>>>>>>> Penn.,
>>>>>>> Michigan, Kentucky, Virginia, New York, New Jersey, Conn., No.
>>>>>>> Carolina, So. Carolina, Tenn., Arkansas, Louisiana, Miss.,
>>>>>>> Alabama,
>>>>>>> Georgia, Florida.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's just the speakers with the most extreme fronting
>>>>>>> (normalized
>>>>>>> F2> 1950 Hz). If you include those with moderate fronting (F2>
>>>>>>> 1800 Hz), you pick up speakers in Oregon, Nevada, West
>>>>>>> Virginia, as
>>>>>>> well as several New England states.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Matt Gordon
>>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>>> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
>>>>>>> Behalf Of
>>>>>>> Wilson Gray [hwgray at GMAIL.COM]
>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 6:23 PM
>>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Fronted high back vowel /u/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Fronting of /u/ (and /o/) is found pretty much everywhere in
>>>>>>> the US
>>>>>>> except for the Inland North (e.g. the Great Lakes region)."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "*Pretty much everywhere* in the US except for the Inland
>>>>>>> North"? A
>>>>>>> claim hard to support, unless you've been pretty much everywhere.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When I first read of the existence of this sound shift in the
>>>>>>> intro to
>>>>>>> linguistics by the late Fr. Dineen, SJ, of Georgetown, I was
>>>>>>> totally
>>>>>>> shocked, since his statement, like yours, gives the impression
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> this is a feature of al dialects of US English. One of D's
>>>>>>> examples
>>>>>>> was "newn" [niun] for "noon." This and pronunciations like
>>>>>>> "skewl" for
>>>>>>> "school" are certainly common, if not standard, among white
>>>>>>> Southerners at least as far west as Abilene, TX. But, till I had
>>>>>>> occasion to live in the Northeast, I had no idea that this oddity
>>>>>>> existed anywhere else. But then, you have in mind only white
>>>>>>> speakers,
>>>>>>> right? And, even among white speakers, such speakers along the
>>>>>>> Left
>>>>>>> Coast are not being included, no doubt.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, I'm still waiting to hear it used generally from coast
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> coast, as, e.g. [nu:] for "new" is. (Not that [nIu] has become
>>>>>>> obsolete. *Many* people still use it.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, I may have run completely off the rails, here, in
>>>>>>> attempting to take you to task about this. Sound-change is pretty
>>>>>>> unpredictable. In my lost youth, the pronunciation of, e.g.
>>>>>>> "now" as
>>>>>>> "naow" [n&u] and not as [nau] was *absolutely* not used by BE
>>>>>>> speakers, except *very* rarely in mockery of SE speakers. (E.g.
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> was once a popular version of the song, Temptation, recorded by
>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> "Cinderella G. Stump," which was done in a mockery of white,
>>>>>>> mountain
>>>>>>> speech. It was also popular 'mongst us cullud chirren, though
>>>>>>> we had
>>>>>>> no idea that it was supposed to be a put-down, Saint Louis
>>>>>>> being such
>>>>>>> a speech-island, back in the day, that we didn't know that there
>>>>>>> existed people who really did speak more-or-less that way.
>>>>>>> Nowadays,
>>>>>>> I'd be hard put to find a BE speaker younger than fifty or so who
>>>>>>> still uses [nau] and not [n&u]. If it wasn't for being able to
>>>>>>> listen
>>>>>>> to my old blues and R&B records, I might even begin to doubt my
>>>>>>> own
>>>>>>> memory that [nau] was ever used by anyone outside of my own
>>>>>>> family.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Once upon a time, the glo?al stop was so rare that I knew only a
>>>>>>> single individual who used it in his ordinary speech, whether
>>>>>>> monitored or unmonitored. I occasionally wondered whether he
>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>> have a speech defect. Nowadays, the glo?al stop is virtually a
>>>>>>> marker
>>>>>>> of hiphop/rap speech, and is slowly creeping into other forms of
>>>>>>> speech, based on what I hear on The Judges.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Wilson
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Dec 20, 2009 at 12:25 PM, Gordon, Matthew J.
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>> Poster: "Gordon, Matthew J."
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Fronted high back vowel /u/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>>>> ------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This sounds like pretty classic Southern Shift: back vowel
>>>>>>>> fronting
>>>>>>>> + raising of /E/ and /I/. The only thing odd would be the
>>>>>>>> direction
>>>>>>>> of the glide. When diphthongal, the lax vowels in the SoShift
>>>>>>>> usually have central/schwa offglides if I recall correctly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fronting of /u/ (and /o/) is found pretty much everywhere in
>>>>>>>> the US
>>>>>>>> except for the Inland North (e.g. the Great Lakes region).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Matt Gordon
>>>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>>>> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
>>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>>> Of Randall Gess [randall_gess at CARLETON.CA]
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 8:38 AM
>>>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>>>> Subject: Fronted high back vowel /u/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm new to the list. I've just started doing volunteer work on
>>>>>>>> occasion for a victim identification unit of law enforcement. I
>>>>>>>> have a
>>>>>>>> recording with a male North American speaker that has a rather
>>>>>>>> fronted /u/ sound (F1 395, F2 1816), in the word 'movie'. I've
>>>>>>>> heard
>>>>>>>> this kind of fronting before, but does anyone know how
>>>>>>>> widespread it
>>>>>>>> is geographically? The /E/ in leg is also a bit raised at F1
>>>>>>>> 550, F2
>>>>>>>> 1942 and slightly diphthongized toward /ei/, but this is not as
>>>>>>>> pronounced as I've heard in some accents. Does anyone know where
>>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>>> features might co-occur?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Randall
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Language: Defining dreams for millennia.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Randall Gess
>>>>>>>> Professor and Director
>>>>>>>> School of Linguistics and Language Studies
>>>>>>>> 215 Paterson Hall, Carleton University
>>>>>>>> 1125 Colonel By Drive, Ottawa ON K1S 5B6
>>>>>>>> Tel: (613) 520-6612 Fax: (613) 520-6641
>>>>>>>> Email: randall_gess at carleton.ca
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The information in this message, including any attachments, is
>>>>>>>> privileged and may contain confidential information intended
>>>>>>>> only for
>>>>>>>> the person(s) named above. Any other distribution, copying or
>>>>>>>> disclosure is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
>>>>>>>> recipient or have received this message in error, please notify
>>>>>>>> Carleton University immediately by reply email at the contact
>>>>>>>> listed
>>>>>>>> above and permanently delete the original transmission from us,
>>>>>>>> including any attachments, without making a copy. Carleton
>>>>>>>> University
>>>>>>>> is fully compliant with the Freedom of Information and
>>>>>>>> Protection of
>>>>>>>> Privacy Act and appreciates your cooperation in this matter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> -Wilson
>>>>>>> =E2=80=93=E2=80=93=E2=80=93
>>>>>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to
>>>>>>> die!"=E2=80=93=E2=80=93a stra=
>>>> nge complaint to
>>>>>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>>>> =E2=80=93Mark Twain
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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