All 40 USA English phonemes (Was Re: Eggcorn? "warn" > "worn")

[Tom Zurinskas]

Google on "phoneme" and see the definitions.

I dissagree that the "g" in "sung" is mostly silent as said in sentences.



Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
see truespel.com













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> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 10:16:27 -0500
> From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
> Subject: Re: All 40 USA English phonemes (Was Re: Eggcorn? "warn"> "worn")
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Laurence Horn
> Subject: Re: All 40 USA English phonemes (Was Re: Eggcorn? "warn">
> "worn")
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> At 9:29 AM +0000 2/17/09, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>I see your point, although a "long e" isn't usually thought of as a schwa.
>>
>>How about when different pronunciations of a
>>word cause changes of meaning, like homonyms,
>>e.g. pronouncing "caught" the same as "cot".
>>Would that not be a "phonemic" change? I think
>>so. However, the meaning has not changed, just
>>the pronunciation; just the phonemes.
>>
>>So I prefer the simple original definition of phoneme as a basic speech sound
>
> That's not the (whole) definition of "phoneme",
> original or otherwise. Contrast (or potential
> contrast), or capability of making a difference
> in meaning, was always part of it, or else
> aspirated and unaspirated [p] would be different
> phonemes. Whose definition are you citing here?
>
>>, not getting into "meaning". The "meaning" of words is a step beyond.
>
> Not in defining phonemes.
>
>> For example, someone could say "Just great" and mean exactly the opposite.
>
> ????
>
>>
>>Between "sun" and "sung" I would say there is an
>>extra "g" sound there in "sung"; Perhaps
>>diminished but surely there, no?
>
> No.
>
>> And if you put it in a sentence "I've sung a song" the "g" pops out stongly.
>>
>
> Not for most English speakers, whence the
> shibboleth of "Lung Guy-land" to characterize one
> regional dialect where the epenthetic /g/ does
> pop up. Your system would encourage representing
> "idea" as containing a final /r/ because it pops
> up for certain non-rhotic speakers who say "the
> idear of it". Of course, the pronunciation of
> such speakers should be represented with that [r]
> in such cases, but I don't think you'd want to
> base an orthography on that practice.
>
> LH
>
>>
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>>
>>----------------------------------------
>>> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 12:21:24 +0800
>>> From: strangeguitars at GMAIL.COM
>>> Subject: Re: All 40 USA English phonemes (Was Re: Eggcorn? "warn"> "worn")
>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the
>>>mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Randy Alexander
>>> Subject: Re: All 40 USA English phonemes (Was Re: Eggcorn? "warn">
>>> "worn")
>>>
>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 2:29 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>> My bad. I've guess I must have reversed them.
>>>
>>> Good that you're admitting this.
>>>
>>>> What amazes me is that folks call these two
>>>>n's different phonemes and yet they think
>>>>schwa is one phoneme when it is in reality
>>>>many.
>>>
>>> A phoneme is the smallest unit of speech sound that affects *meaning*
>>> in a word. So /n/ and /ng/ are separate phonemes because "sun" and
>>> "sung" have different meanings.
>>>
>>> The different realizations of the schwa don't affect meaning. You can
>>> say "believe" with the first syllable realized as /bee/ or /buh/ or
>>> /bih/, without changing the meaning of the word.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Randy Alexander
>>> Jilin City, China
>>> My Manchu studies blog:
>>> http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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