Locke's Harlem/big apple quote --- what might have happened

[Jonathan Lighter]

Well that just compounds the confusion, doesn't it?

JL

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 11:13 AM, Shapiro, Fred <fred.shapiro at yale.edu>wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Shapiro, Fred" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: Locke's Harlem/big apple quote --- what might have
> happened
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Guterman got it right.  Bartlett's misinterpreted Guterman.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of
> Jonathan Lighter [wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM]
> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 11:09 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>  Subject: Re: Locke's Harlem/big apple quote --- what might have happened
>
> The most famous ex. of this process may be the attribution to Voltaire of
> the words, "I disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for
> your right to say it."
>
> The actual quote (as Fred already knows) is from _The Friends of Voltaire_
> ,
> by "S. G. Tallentyre"  (Evelyn B. Hall) (London: Smith, Elder), p. 199:  "I
> disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to
> say
> it,' was his attitude now."
>
> Despite the claim by Guterman in 1963 that something very similar really
> did
> appear in Voltaire's letter to L'Abbe' Leriche of Feb. 6, 1770, it would
> seem that this is not at all so.
> That letter contains instead Voltaire's famous quote, "God is on the side
> of
> the greater battalions."
>
> JL
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 9:29 PM, Joel S. Berson <Berson at att.net> wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>
> > Subject:      Re: Locke's Harlem/big apple quote --- what might have
> > happened
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > At 6/14/2009 05:48 PM, Gerald Cohen wrote:
> > >...
> > >Here's the key portion of the letter:
> > >Ś...According to Harlem griots (oral historians), the clue to the
> > >mystery is Harlem.  It is my understanding that Alain Locke,
> > >professor of philosophy at Howard University, originated the term
> > >during the Harlem Renaissance of the 1920ąs.
> > >    ŚDr. Locke, a graduate of Harvard University and the first black
> > >Rhodes Scholar to attend Oxford University, used the term to depict
> > >Harlem as the precious fruit in the Garden of Eden, an oasis for the
> > >literary, musical and painting talents of oppressed black American
> > >intellectuals. ...'
> > >
> > >Note that Ms. Daniels doesn't give Locke's statement as a quote.  *She*
> > >(relying on the griots) is the one who interprets how Locke felt about
> > >Harlem, and very possibly she is correct in this.  But that's not the
> same
> > >as asserting that those were his very words.
> >
> > One algorithm is:
> > A paraphrases X as having said something, or
> > having discussed something.  No quotation marks.
> > B sees what A wrote, and being a conscientious
> > scholar, puts quotes around his quotation from
> > A.  But which part of the quotation is X's words
> > and which part A's words has become obscure.
> > C sees what B wrote, which has quotation marks,
> > and assumes X wrote it when actually B wrote it.
> >
> > (I encountered a case exactly like this in my
> > (American colonial period) historical research.)
> >
> > >... There's a snowball effect here. Each time the quote is
> > >mentioned uncritically in a new work, the assumption of its being bona
> > fide
> > >is increased.
> >
> > I can undoubtedly find writers on historiography
> > who (paraphrasing, not quoting -- but since I'm
> > giving neither name nor date, I can't get anyone
> > into trouble) say how once an error gets into
> > print it's almost impossible to eliminate it; or
> > comment on the tendency of historians to form a
> > chain of citation of their predecessors' errors.
> >
> > Joel
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org