"long" and "short" vowels

Wed Jun 17 19:17:50 UTC 2009

No, Tom,
We are saying that this was true in 1370 (and in some dialects, as late as the early 1600s).  No dialect of English has [a:] in mate anymore.  But our terminology of "short" and "long" vowels rests on terminology used by 16th-century grammarians of English.  The vowels changed; the terminology didn't.

Paul Johnston
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
Date: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 5:21 am
Subject: Re: "long" and "short" vowels

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> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "long" and "short" vowels
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> ------------
>
> > Yes, long [a] interpreted *quantitatively* (often
> > represented as [a:] is pronounced with the same
> > tongue position as short "a", but just prolonged.
>
> So you're saying "mate" and "mat" vowels have the same tongue
> position (I think close but not same).  And you say "mate" vowel
> takes longer to say than "mat" (I say them over and over and they
> seem the same).  This is quantitative, somehow?  (time measure and
> physical tongue location?)
>
> > "Long-a" so-called, referring to what is called
> > long "a" in many grade school classes and in many
> > traditional dictionaries refers, as was noted by
> > Randy below, to exactly this vowel as it occurred
> > in Chaucerian Middle English, before the English
> > Vowel Shift, but now refers to the diphthong that
> > [a:] vowel turned into, i.e. [ey] or [ej]
> > depending on your transcription system. This is
> > phonetically not an [a] at all, much less a long
> > one, but a vowel nucleus of a different quality
> > altogether.
>
> Here you've lost me.  Are you saying the term "long a" refers to a
> dialect that exists no more, Chaucerian, and is obsolete?  "Vowel
> nucleus"?  Don't all English vowels have a different nucleus?
> (This is the quality part, right - what it sounds like)
>
> You say that "long a" [a:] in you notation is a diphthong.  As I
> hear it in thefreedictionary.com the USA version is not, but the
> UK version has an off glide and so I guess you could say it is (if
> an off glide qualifies as a diphthong maker).
>
>
>
> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> see truespel.com
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
> > Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:14:55 -0400
> > From: laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
> > Subject: Re: "long" and "short" vowels
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------
> --------------
> > Sender: American Dialect Society
> > Poster: Laurence Horn
> > Subject: Re: "long" and "short" vowels
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> >
> > At 6:53 PM +0000 6/16/09, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>I'm not sure what is meant by "quantity and
> >>quality" in relation to the "long and shor"
> >>vowels. Any examples?
> >
> > Yes, long [a] interpreted *quantitatively* (often
> > represented as [a:] is pronounced with the same
> > tongue position as short "a", but just prolonged.
> > "Long-a" so-called, referring to what is called
> > long "a" in many grade school classes and in many
> > traditional dictionaries refers, as was noted by
> > Randy below, to exactly this vowel as it occurred
> > in Chaucerian Middle English, before the English
> > Vowel Shift, but now refers to the diphthong that
> > [a:] vowel turned into, i.e. [ey] or [ej]
> > depending on your transcription system. This is
> > phonetically not an [a] at all, much less a long
> > one, but a vowel nucleus of a different quality
> > altogether.
> >
> > LH
> >
> >> And if it's from Latin class does it relate to English?
> >
> > I was referring to the phonetic character of the
> > vowels, not to which languages they occur(red)
> > in. Long [a] phonetically, [a:] in my notation,
> > is not a diphthong in any language, whatever the
> > orthographic conventions or historical
> > development may be. We could spell the vowel
> > sound in "mate" with a or a , but that
> > wouldn't turn it into a uvular stop or a prime
> > number, it would still be a diphthong beginning
> > with [e] or [E] and ending with a [i] or [y] or
> > [j] offglide.
> >
> > LH
> >
> >>And did you not hear "long and short" vowels for English at all?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>I appears to me that the terms "long and short"
> >>vowels is not a common in traditional Enlgish
> >>training as I had thought.
> >>
> >>Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
> >>see truespel.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> ---------------------- Information from the
> >>>mail header -----------------------
> >>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>> Poster: Laurence Horn
> >>> Subject: Re: "long" and "short" vowels
> >>>
> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------------
> >>>
> >>> At 12:40 PM -0500 6/16/09, Kari Castor wrote:
> >>>>Randy,
> >>>>I have a (very small) smattering of Japanese, which uses short
> and long
> >>>>vowels, but I guess I'd never consciously realized that those
> terms in
> >>>>English once referred to the same phenomenon. In the context
> of English,
> >>>>I've only ever heard them used (at least so far as I recall)
> in the
> >>>>previously discussed manner where they're actually different
> vowel sounds.
> >>>>
> >>>>Thanks for the alternate terminology. As I said, I don't think
> it's an
> >>>>issue likely to come up much in my own classroom, but if it
> does, I think
> >>>>I'm that much more well-prepared to deal with it now. ;-)
> >>>>
> >>>>Kari
> >>>
> >>> Like a lot of people, doubtless, I mostly associate short and long
> >>> vowels with learning Latin in high school, where the terms do
> refer>>> to quantity and not quality (and where our readers
> helpfully marked
> >>> them all, as do dictionaries).
> >>>
> >>> LH
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:16 AM, Randy Alexander
> >>>>wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >>>>> -----------------------
> >>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >>>>> Poster: Randy Alexander
> >>>>> Subject: Re: "long" and "short" vowels
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>--------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 8:17 AM, Tom Zurinskas
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> I hope teachers still use that phraseology to link with the
> past.>>>>>
> >>>>> You're hoping that they link with the very very distant past
> -- at
> >>>>> least 500 years ago. Very few people, let alone students,
> will have
> >>>>> any familiarity with the form of English that was in use at
> that time.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Long" and "short" are very useful terms when dealing with
> languages>>>>> that have such phonemic distinctions, but since the
> number of speakers
> >>>>> using English dialects that maintain any long/short vowel
> distinction>>>>> is so small (one might even say statistically
> insignificant), those
> >>>>> terms are very misleading when applied to "standard" English.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In my own teaching and pedagogy (including training English
> teachers),>>>>> I have avoided those terms, replacing them with
> "basic" for {bat, bet,
> >>>>> bit, bot, but}, and "name" for {bait, beat, bite, boat,
> beautiful}.>>>>> For sounds that are not clearly the five basic or
> five name sounds of
> >>>>> {a, e, i, o, u}, I call them "other" vowel sounds.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If I mention "long" and "short", I say that those terms formerly
> >>>>> referred to what I call "basic" and "name", but as of 500
> years ago
> >>>>> are not applicable (500 years ago there really were long and
> short>>>>> vowels). However, many teachers unfortunately still use
> them,>>>>> including my teachers when I was little.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For older students who can understand phonetic differences,
> phonetics>>>>> terms can be used instead (front/back, open/close,
> >>>>> diphthong/monophthong/glide, etc).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Randy Alexander
> >>>>> Jilin City, China
> >>>>> My Manchu studies blog:
> >>>>> http://www.bjshengr.com/manchu
> >>>>>
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> >>>>>
> >>>>
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> >>
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