Non-coda r-loss in Southern speech?

Thu Jun 18 15:20:10 UTC 2009

At 5:40 AM -0400 6/18/09, Bill Palmer wrote:
>Greetings Wilson.
>I'm afraid I've just about exhausted my current inventory of East Texasisms.
>Too many intervening years in too many other places (including Boston).  And
>I only lived there 2 years (5th & 6th grades).
>
>I was always taken with the unusual names for various beverages in Boston:
>
>Soda = "tonic"
>Ice cream soda = "cabinet"

>From what I've read and seen, "cabinet" is
largely if not entirely restricted to Rhode
Island, while I have encountered "tonic" in
Boston (for 'soft drink') and "frappe" in both
Mass. and R.I.

LH

>Milk shake = "frappe"
>
>or at least that's my memory  of those terms.
>
>Bill
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Wilson Gray" <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 11:41 PM
>Subject: Re: Non-coda r-loss in Southern speech?
>
>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>header -----------------------
>>Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>>Subject:      Re: Non-coda r-loss in Southern speech?
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>Heighdy, Bill!
>>
>>Yes, I did use "aught." It goes way back. I''m 72 and I learned it
>>from my grandmother, born in the 1890's!
>>
>>If you feel like chatting about East Texas talk, get in touch with me or
>>
>>Lee Murrah <mclee at murrah.com>
>>
>>either here or privately. He's originally from Lufkin. I'm a native of
>>Marshall, but now I live in Boston. They don't use ahra's around here,
>>neither, but it's a whole 'nother dialect.
>>
>>As a hobby, Lee is compiling a lexicon of (East) Texanisms.
>>
>>BTW, do / did y'all use _potentest_, pronounced like "pote-niss"? As
>>in: "She('s) just / jes'  the potentest thing (pote-niss thang)! =
>>"She's really cute / pretty /etc.!"?
>>
>>That blows the mind of New Englanders!
>>
>>-Wilson
>>
>>On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:19 PM, Bill Palmer<w_a_palmer at bellsouth.net>
>>wrote:
>>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>header -----------------------
>>>Sender: Â  Â  Â  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>Poster: Â  Â  Â  Bill Palmer <w_a_palmer at BELLSOUTH.NET>
>>>Subject: Â  Â  Â Re: Non-coda r-loss in Southern speech?
>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>Thanks Wilson
>>>
>>>Did you (or do you?) use "aught" for "zero"?
>>>
>>>Your mention of Joe Louis's ""th' ough" reminded me that, when I was a
>>>boy
>>>in Orange, boys (all of them white, in my experience) would threaten each
>>>other that they would "knock your teeth down your th'oat"
>>>
>>>Bill
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Wilson Gray" <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>>>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 4:10 PM
>>>Subject: Re: Non-coda r-loss in Southern speech?
>>>
>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>>header -----------------------
>>>>Sender: Â  Â  Â  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>Poster: Â  Â  Â  Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>Subject: Â  Â  Â Re: Non-coda r-loss in Southern speech?
>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>Heighdy, Bill!
>>>>
>>>>My family, when I was a child, at one time or another, lived in
>>>>Beaumont and Port Arthur (we called it "Po' Daahthuh." I was *shocked*
>>>>when I learned how to read.) However, we never lived in Orange, so we
>>>>didn't complete The Golden Triangle. :-)
>>>>
>>>>When the late, great Joe Louis, a native Alabamian, was asked about
>>>>the future of Floyd Paterson, after he lost to Sonny Liston, Joe
>>>>replied, "He th'ough!" But, even in street-level black speech,
>>>>something like *thrr-* is the "standard" pronunciation. If you - i.e.,
>>>>anybody, not just Bill - can stand it, check out any
>>>>neo-blaxploitation flick.
>>>>
>>>>-Wilson
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Bill Palmer<w_a_palmer at bellsouth.net>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>>>header -----------------------
>>>>>Sender: Ã, Â Ã, Â Ã, Â American Dialect Society
>>>>><ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>Poster: Ã, Â Ã, Â Ã, Â Bill Palmer <w_a_palmer at BELLSOUTH.NET>
>>>>>Subject: Ã, Â Ã, Â Ã, Re: Non-coda r-loss in Southern speech?
>>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>I lived in extreme East Texas (Orange, to be specific...about 25 mi
>>>>>from
>>>>>Beaumont) as a boy, and, as Wilson has pointed out, "throw" was never
>>>>>heard,
>>>>>only "chunk". Ã, Also, in class, the word "zero" seemed to be
>>>>>unknown..."aught" (or, I suppose, "ought") was used exclusively. Ã,
>>>>>This
>>>>>was
>>>>>early 1950s...I wonder if that's still the case.
>>>>>
>>>>>Bill Palmer
>>>>>
>>>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>>>From: "Wilson Gray" <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>>To: <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 8:35 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: Non-coda r-loss in Southern speech?
>>>>>
>>>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>>>>header -----------------------
>>>>>>Sender: Ã, Â Ã, Â Ã, Â American Dialect Society
>>>>>><ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>>Poster: Ã, Â Ã, Â Ã, Â Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>>>Subject: Ã, Â Ã, Â Ã, Re: Non-coda r-loss in Southern speech?
>>>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sigh! Dialect is as weird as language. Down home in East Texas, though
>>>>>>"throw" was known to us local-BE speakers, *chunk* - presumably
>>>>>>originally *chuck* - was by far the preferred term. The pronunciation
>>>>>>of *throw*, when it was used, as "th'ow" [Tow] was also very common.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>When we moved up (relatively) North to Saint Louis, I found that
>>>>>>*chunk* was rare to the vanishing point, usually a feature of the
>>>>>>speech only of those of us who were FOB - "fresh off the [Greyhound]
>>>>>>bus" - from behind the Cotton Curtain and not yet assimilated. *Very*
>>>>>>rarely, Saint Louis BE-speakers dropped the /r/ in thr-: "th'ow
>>>>>>(throw) th'ee (three)," etc. But the Spanish-like long, trilled [R]+
>>>>>>Ã, was definitely the standard in this environment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>When I first moved to the Northeast, where people pronounce /r/ in
>>>>>>thr- as [r](?), so that, e.g. "three" sounds, to my ear, like *thuree*
>>>>>>[Tri], I was freaked out. I simply couldn't figure out how it was done
>>>>>>without inserting a fully-vocalized schwa, as in the Army's [T at Rijp],
>>>>>>used by some NCO's in counting cadence. Even in that pronunciation,
>>>>>>though, the trilled [R] was used.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>(I'm pretty sure that "R" means something different in the *real* IPA.
>>>>>>But, what can you do? So, gimme some slack, if you gnome sane.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>-Wilson
>>>>>>.
>>>>>>On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Joseph Salmons<jsalmons at wisc.edu>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail
>>>>>>>header -----------------------
>>>>>>>Sender: Ãf, Ã, Ãf, Ã, Ãf, Ã, American Dialect Society
>>>>>>><ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>>>Poster: Ãf, Ã, Ãf, Ã, Ãf, Ã, Joseph Salmons <jsalmons at WISC.EDU>
>>>>>>>Subject: Ãf, Ã, Ãf, Ã, Ãf, Non-coda r-loss in Southern speech?
>>>>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>There's a set of cases where clusters with a voiceless fricative + r
>>>>>>>lose the r in some Southern speech. DARE gives r-less 'from' mostly
>>>>>>>from African-American speakers, but I'm betting that it exists in
>>>>>>>among white speakers -- almost sure of it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A few I have (still today, in unguarded speech) are with the
>>>>>>>voiceless
>>>>>>>interdental fricative -- notably in 'through, throw (throwed/threw/
>>>>>>>thrown)'. It's probably lexical for me at least, since most words
>>>>>>>sound bizarre without the r: Ãf, 'three, thread, throttle, throne',
>>>>>>>etc.
>>>>>>>In a few, I can imagine variability but it's hard to tell up here so
>>>>>>>far from home: 'throes, throat'. Or maybe some part is
>>>>>>>phonological --
>>>>>>>lose the r before tense /u/ (but a rare enough combo that you can't
>>>>>>>be
>>>>>>>sure), variably before tense /o/, with the r-less 'threw'-form by
>>>>>>>analogy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Anyway, that's just a long clumsy prelude to a simple question: Does
>>>>>>>anybody know anything about this general pattern?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Joe
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Jun 16, 2009, at 11:10 AM, Mark Mandel wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>>>-----------------------
>>>>>>>>Sender: Ãf, Ã, Ãf, Ã, Ãf, Ã, American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>><ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>>>>>>Poster: Ãf, Ã, Ãf, Ã, Ãf, Ã, Mark Mandel <thnidu at GMAIL.COM>
>>>>>>>>Subject: Ãf, Ã, Ãf, Ã, Ãf, Re: Ahra-lessnes in white-Southern speech
>>>>>>>>(UNCLASSIFIED)
>>>>>>>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 10:42 AM, Jonathan Lighter
>>>>>>>><wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>My friend from rural Middle Tennessee - a distinguished attorney -
>>>>>>>>>always
>>>>>>>>>says "fum."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Other than that and maybe one or two other items, he's got all his
>>>>>>>>>r's.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>And even that isn't r-lessness (arrhoticity), which AFAIK refers to
>>>>>>>>loss of *postvocalic* /r/.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>m a m
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>>>-Wilson
>>>>>>ÃfÂ¢?"ÃfÂ¢?"ÃfÂ¢?"
>>>>>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>>>>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>>>-----
>>>>>>-Mark Twain
>>>>>>
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>>>>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>
>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>-Wilson
>>>>Ã¢?"Ã¢?"Ã¢?"
>>>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>-----
>>>>-Mark Twain
>>>>
>>>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>-Wilson
>>â?"â?"â?"
>>All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
>>come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>-----
>>-Mark Twain
>>
>>------------------------------------------------------------
>>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
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>The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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