velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday

Sat Mar 7 15:00:45 UTC 2009

I forgot Herb.  Books are right and people are wrong.  Thanks for the insight.

Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
see truespel.com

----------------------------------------
> Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 08:24:35 -0500
> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Herb Stahlke
> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Tom,
>
> Your intuition is just as wrong as the medieval intuition that the
> earth was flat and that the sun went around it. And you can see
> what's wrong with your intuition by looking at any phonetics text.
>
> Herb
>
> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 7:07 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Herb=2C Great. The letter "l" is alveolar not velar. But I would still in=
>> tuit that the tongue is closer to the velar region when saying a long e ~ee=
>> than a short oo ~oo ("leek" vs "look").
>>
>> =20
>>
>> Regards truespel phonetic spelling development=2C the point of articulation=
>> was not taken into account during it's development=2C merely the prevelent=
>> English spelling forms for sounds. That's why=2C for instance=2C the soun=
>> d of "ou" in "out" is foespeld ~ou rather than ~au (which is German not Eng=
>> lish).
>>
>> =20
>>
>> The truespel notation spelling choices are backed up by two studies=2C true=
>> spel books 1 and 4. Book 1 looks into phoneme spelling frequency for a lis=
>> t of 57 k words. Book 4 looks into phoneme frequency of the 5k most common=
>> words weighted by how often they appear in text. There are some big diffe=
>> rences. If you like reading spreadsheet after spreadsheet=2C these books a=
>> re for you.
>>
>> =20
>>
>> Truespel has tremendous advantages over IPA for application to English lear=
>> ners as I've mentioned before.
>>
>> Tom Zurinskas=2C USA - CT20=2C TN3=2C NJ33=2C FL5+=20
>> see truespel.com
>>
>> =20
>>> Date: Fri=2C 6 Mar 2009 22:04:57 -0500
>>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>=20
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------=
>> ------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
>> ------
>>>=20
>>> No=2C Tom=2C we don't. No one has claimed that English /l/ is not
>>> alveolar. The question is what's happening in the back of the oral
>>> cavity at the same time. In post-vocalic /l/=2C the tongue rises to /U/
>>> position. There is xray photographic evidence to show that opening
>>> between velum and back of tongue in /U/ is narrower than that in /i/.
>>> With /i/ the narrowing is at the palate=2C not at the velum. You were
>>> roughly right about the primary articulation of /l/ and the place of
>>> articulation of /k/. Otherwise your facts are wrong. What I don't
>>> understand is=2C your commitment to your spelling system
>>> notwithstanding=2C how you can remain so determinedly uninformed about
>>> the basic facts of English phonetics.
>>>=20
>>> Herb
>>>=20
>>> On Fri=2C Mar 6=2C 2009 at 5:59 PM=2C Tom Zurinskas>>> wrote:
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------=
>> --------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>> --------
>>>>
>>>> Herb=3D2C
>>>>
>>>> =3D20
>>>>
>>>> We seem to be getting there. Personally=3D2C I can't say an "l" without=
>> putt=3D
>>>> ing my tongue to the top of my gums. That makes "l" alveolar not velar.=
>> Wh=3D
>>>> en I say the word "clock" the tongue for "c" goes to the back roof of t=
>> he m=3D
>>>> outh=3D2C velar region=3D2C then for the "l" sound opens wide for "l" w=
>> hile the=3D
>>>> tip of the tongue is alveolar. This is before the vowel "o" ~aa. After =
>> a =3D
>>>> vowel is no different. Also=3D2C the vowel sound in "put or pull" is fa=
>> r mor=3D
>>>> e open at the velum than say "ee" is.=3D20
>>>>
>>>> =3D20
>>>>
>>>> In summary=3D2C I'd say the velum plays no primary or secondary role in=
>> sayin=3D
>>>> g the "l" sound ~l. If anything the tongue is pulled away from the velu=
>> m wh=3D
>>>> ile being alveolar engaged.
>>>>
>>>> Tom Zurinskas=3D2C USA - CT20=3D2C TN3=3D2C NJ33=3D2C FL5+=3D20
>>>> see truespel.com
>>>>
>>>> =3D20
>>>>> Date: Fri=3D2C 6 Mar 2009 13:49:17 -0500
>>>>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------------=
>> ---=3D
>>>> ------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
>> ---=3D
>>>> ------
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>> Tom=3D2C
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>> AmE /l/ before a vowel has the tip of tongue on the alveolar ridge and
>>>>> the airstream passing around one or both sides of the tongue. This
>>>>> articulation also holds for post-vocalic /l/ except that for most AmE
>>>>> speakers the back of the tongue is also raised towards the velum=3D2C
>>>>> approximately to the position for the vowel /U/ as in "put." The back
>>>>> of the tongue does not touch the velum. This gesture when combined
>>>>> with a consonant articulation is called "velarization" and is one of
>>>>> three common secondary articulations. The other two are
>>>>> palatalization and labialization=3D2C which are secondary narrowings a=
>> t
>>>>> the palate and at the lips respectively.
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>> Herb
>>>>>=3D20
>>>>> On Fri=3D2C Mar 6=3D2C 2009 at 12:33 PM=3D2C Tom Zurinskas>> otmail.co=3D
>>>> m> wrote:
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ------------=
>> ---=3D
>>>> --------
>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------=
>> ---=3D
>>>> --------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For an "l" I've got the tongue hitting the upper gums=3D3D2C not the=
>> vela=3D
>>>> r regi=3D3D
>>>>>> on. I can't conceive of "l" being called velar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom Zurinskas=3D3D2C USA - CT20=3D3D2C TN3=3D3D2C NJ33=3D3D2C FL5+=
>> =3D3D20
>>>>>> see truespel.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =3D3D20
>>>>>>> Date: Fri=3D3D2C 6 Mar 2009 07:45:31 -0500
>>>>>>> From: hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>>>=3D3D20
>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------=
>> ---=3D
>>>> ---=3D3D
>>>>>> ------
>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------=
>> ---=3D
>>>> ---=3D3D
>>>>>> ------
>>>>>>>=3D3D20
>>>>>>> Wilson=3D3D2C
>>>>>>>=3D3D20
>>>>>>> You got my point=3D3D2C and thanks for the observation on the vowel
>>>>>>> transition before /l/. My students always had problems with
>>>>>>> transcribing vowels before final /l/=3D3D2C which usually provided =
>> a goo=3D
>>>> d
>>>>>>> teaching opportunity.
>>>>>>>=3D3D20
>>>>>>> Tom=3D3D2C on the other hand=3D3D2C misses the point as usual. Vela=
>> rizatio=3D
>>>> n=3D3D2C To=3D3D
>>>>>> m=3D3D2C
>>>>>>> is not velar closure. The back of the tongue is raised but not high
>>>>>>> enough to touch the velum. This has a clear acoustic effect on the
>>>>>>> consonant=3D3D2C in this case /l/. You have some grasp of the "plac=
>> e of
>>>>>>> articulation" parameter=3D3D2C at least that it exists=3D3D2C but y=
>> ou seem=3D
>>>> totall=3D3D
>>>>>> y
>>>>>>> unaware of the "manner of articulation" parameter. If you won't tak=
>> e
>>>>>>> a course=3D3D2C at least read a good text on phonetics. I recommend=
>> Pete=3D
>>>> r
>>>>>>> Ladefoged's A Course in Linguistics=3D3D2C 5th ed. (Thomson Learnin=
>> g 200=3D
>>>> 5).
>>>>>>> The book comes with a CD=3D3D2C so you'll be able to hear what soun=
>> ds IP=3D
>>>> A
>>>>>>> symbols represent. You can also find the content of the CD on line =
>> at
>>>>>>> http://www.ladefogeds.com/course/contents.html.
>>>>>>>=3D3D20
>>>>>>> Herb
>>>>>>>=3D3D20
>>>>>>> On Fri=3D3D2C Mar 6=3D3D2C 2009 at 1:13 AM=3D3D2C Wilson Gray>> ay at gmail.=3D
>>>> com> wrot=3D3D
>>>>>> e:
>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------=
>> ---=3D
>>>> ---=3D3D
>>>>>> --------
>>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>>> Poster: Wilson Gray
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------=
>> ---=3D
>>>> ---=3D3D
>>>>>> --------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My WAG is that it's a feature of her dialect. BE doesn't have the
>>>>>>>> style of articulation that makes the pronunciation of=3D3D2C e.g.=
>> "coo=3D
>>>> l" by
>>>>>>>> (Northern) white speakers sound to us like 'koo-wool" and causes =
>> BE
>>>>>>>> "cool" to sound like "coo" to white speakers. As a further
>>>>>>>> consequence=3D3D2C some BE speakers overcorrect=3D3D2C e.g. "tabl=
>> e" to "=3D
>>>> taber"
>>>>>>>> [tEIbr].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If I haven't missed your point.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Wilson
>>>>>>>> =3D3DE2=3D3D80=3D3D93=3D3DE2=3D3D80=3D3D93=3D3DE2=3D3D80=3D3D93
>>>>>>>> All say=3D3D2C "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange c=
>> ompla=3D
>>>> int t=3D3D
>>>>>> o
>>>>>>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>>>>>> -----
>>>>>>>> -Mark Twain
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu=3D3D2C Mar 5=3D3D2C 2009 at 10:06 PM=3D3D2C Herb Stahlke <=
>> hfwstahlk=3D
>>>> e at gmail.c=3D3D
>>>>>> om> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header --------=
>> ---=3D
>>>> ---=3D3D
>>>>>> ---------
>>>>>>>>> Sender: =3D3DC2 =3D3DC2 =3D3DC2 American Dialect Society>> LISTSERV.=3D
>>>> UGA.EDU>
>>>>>>>>> Poster: =3D3DC2 =3D3DC2 =3D3DC2 Herb Stahlke>> OM>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: =3D3DC2 =3D3DC2 =3D3DC2 velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------=
>> ---=3D
>>>> ---=3D3D
>>>>>> ---------
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This afternoon I was listening to a recording of Billy Holiday s=
>> ing=3D
>>>> ing
>>>>>>>>> "Crazy he calls me." =3D3DC2 In the line "The impossible will ta=
>> ke a =3D
>>>> littl=3D3D
>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>> while" she has a schwa before the final /l/ of "impossible" and =
>> I
>>>>>>>>> don't hear any distinctive velarization of the /l/. =3D3DC2 Ther=
>> e are=3D
>>>> seve=3D3D
>>>>>> ral
>>>>>>>>> other post-vocalic /l/s in the song=3D3D2C and they don't show m=
>> uch
>>>>>>>>> velarization either. =3D3DC2 Post-vocalic /l/ is a consistent pr=
>> oblem=3D
>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> American English singers=3D3D2C since the raising of the back of=
>> the =3D
>>>> tongu=3D3D
>>>>>> e
>>>>>>>>> towards the velum constricts the oral cavity and reduces the ove=
>> ral=3D
>>>> l
>>>>>>>>> resonance of the syllable coda. =3D3DC2 Some voice teachers and =
>> chora=3D
>>>> l
>>>>>>>>> conductors will spend time training their singers to use only a
>>>>>>>>> non-velarized /l/=3D3D2C as a number European languages widely r=
>> epres=3D
>>>> ented
>>>>>>>>> in the vocal and choral literature do. =3D3DC2 My CD of Billy is=
>> =3D3D2C=3D
>>>> of cou=3D3D
>>>>>> rse=3D3D2C
>>>>>>>>> a copy=3D3D2C and I don't know how good the master was. =3D3DC2 =
>> It's en=3D
>>>> tirely
>>>>>>>>> possible that the fidelity is not good enough to support much in=
>> th=3D
>>>> e
>>>>>>>>> way of diction comments=3D3D2C but my impression is otherwise. =
>> =3D3DC2 =3D
>>>> Billy's
>>>>>>>>> diction is superb. =3D3DC2 Every word she sings is clear=3D3D2C =
>> even on=3D
>>>> a copy=3D3D
>>>>>> of a
>>>>>>>>> copy of a 1949 recording. =3D3DC2 Billy had little or no formal =
>> vocal
>>>>>>>>> training=3D3D2C so the fact that she doesn't velarize /l/ much=
>> =3D3D2C i=3D
>>>> f at al=3D3D
>>>>>> l=3D3D2C
>>>>>>>>> wouldn't be the result of vocal training. =3D3DC2 Is it a featur=
>> e of =3D
>>>> her
>>>>>>>>> variety of AAE? =3D3DC2 Is it idiosyncratic to her distinctive v=
>> ocal =3D
>>>> style=3D3D
>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Herb
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>=3D3D20
>>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _________________________________________________________________
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>> ore_0=3D
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>>>>>>
>>>>>=3D20
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>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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