velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday

Herb Stahlke hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM
Sun Mar 8 11:48:22 UTC 2009 

No.  My diphthongs start, at the lowest, at about V.  I suppose in
careful speech I might start lower.  I do have the low back
rounded/unrounded contrast in cot/caught but open o only in diphthongs
/OI/ and /Or/.  I described the system in a note in a paper in Word,
"Fortis and lenis obstruents in English."

Herb

On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 12:35 AM, Gordon, Matthew J.
<GordonMJ at missouri.edu> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       "Gordon, Matthew J." <GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU>
> Subject:      Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Curiouser and curiouser!
> Do you have low nuclei for these diphthongs in other contexts?=20
> I'm sorry for the questions, but I don't recall having seen this system =
> in the literature.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Herb Stahlke
> Sent: Sat 3/7/2009 10:30 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject:      Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
> =20
> Matt,
>
> Right on V, but @ is schwa, following Kirshenbaum's ASCII IPA
> (http://www.blahedo.org/ascii-ipa.html).
>
> I should have added to the examples
>
> /h at Id/  (v.) "hide"
> /hVId/  (n.) "hide"
>
> Herb
>
> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 10:20 PM, Gordon, Matthew J.
> <GordonMJ at missouri.edu> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =
> -----------------------
>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster:       "Gordon, Matthew J." <GordonMJ at MISSOURI.EDU>
>> Subject:      Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> =
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ------
>>
>> Herb:=3D20
>> Could you clarify your notation? i think you intend @ for script a, =
> the =3D
>> low back unrounded vowel, V for wedge. Is that right?
>>
>> -Matt
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: American Dialect Society on behalf of Herb Stahlke
>> Sent: Sat 3/7/2009 5:48 PM
>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>> Subject:      Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>> =3D20
>> My SE Michigan variant of Inland Northern distinguishes raised and
>> lowered diphthong onsets.  This looks like Canadian Raising except
>> that in certain environments, including open syllables and before /d/
>> and /nd/, it's phonemic.  So I distinguish the following:
>>
>> k at Ind  "variety, sort"
>> kVInd  "well-disposed"
>>
>> r at Und  (preposition, as in "round the corner")
>> rVUnd  (adj., as in "round ball")
>>
>> h at I  (greeting, "hello")
>> hVI  (adj., "high")
>>
>> b at rd  "poet"
>> bVrd  "barred"
>>
>> These contrasts cannot be captured a system based on broadcast AmE or
>> any other single dialect, unless, of course, it's mine.
>>
>> Of course, SE Mich isn't unique.  Any regional or social dialect in
>> AmE has its own contrasts that require  phonemes distinct from some
>> putative standard.
>>
>> Herb
>> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> =
> =3D
>> wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =3D
>> -----------------------
>>> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
>>> Subject:      Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>> =3D
>> =
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> =3D
>> ------
>>>
>>> The problem is that tradspel English is actually the oddly spelled =
> =3D
>> one.  But we're all used to it.  Once the spelling of the 40 phonemes =
> =3D
>> are learned one can read anything phonetically in the USA dialect it =
> =3D
>> represents.  Other symbols are needed for the other languages and =3D
>> dialects.
>>>
>>> I do be believe that US dialects are all within the USA English =3D
>> foenubet (set of sounds).
>>>
>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>> see truespel.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>> Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 14:05:22 -0500
>>>> From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET
>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header =3D
>> -----------------------
>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Alison Murie
>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>> =3D
>> =
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> =3D
>> ------
>>>>
>>>> I must assume that you preface each sentence with the ordinary =3D
>> English
>>>> spelling because you know that most people won't be able to read the
>>>> rather odd language that truespel apparently represents. That rather
>>>> suggests that its vaunted transparency has been overstated.
>>>> AM
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> On Mar 7, 2009, at 11:31 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>> =3D
>> =
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> =3D
>> ------
>>>>>
>>>>> ~! indicates my accent (at start and finish)
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom, why don't you post using truespel
>>>>> ~!Taam, Wie doent yue poest yuezeeng truespel~!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure thing. I also would like to find a phonetic converter for IPA
>>>>> to show a comparison. Note that all accents vary.
>>>>>
>>>>> ~!Sher thheeng. Ie aulsoe wood liek tue fiend u funnedik kunvverter
>>>>> for IPA tue shoe u kumppairisin. Noet that aul aksents vairee.~!
>>>>>
>>>>> Basically if you run your finger along the phonemes and speak them,
>>>>> you are speaking as I speak.
>>>>> ~!Basiklee if yue run yer feenger ullaung thu foeneemz and speek
>>>>> them, yue aar speekeeng az Ie speek.~!
>>>>>
>>>>> Note that stress is on the first syllable or after a double =3D
>> consonant.
>>>>> ~!Noet that stres iz aan thu ferst silubool or after u dubool
>>>>> kaansunint.~!
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL5+
>>>>> see truespel.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>> Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 10:45:48 -0500
>>>>>> From: sagehen7470 at ATT.NET
>>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>> Poster: Alison Murie
>>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>> =3D
>> =
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> =3D
>> ------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom, why don't you post using truespel?
>>>>>> AM
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 7, 2009, at 10:00 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
>>>>>>> -----------------------
>>>>>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>>>>>> Poster: Tom Zurinskas
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: velarized /l/ and Billy Holiday
>>>>>>> =3D
>> =
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> =3D
>> ------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I forgot Herb. Books are right and people are wrong. Thanks for
>>>>>>> the insight.
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
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