1962 "the whole nine yards"

Fri Mar 20 11:09:49 UTC 2009

Wilson,

I agree with you completely.  The "whole nine shipyards" theory is as unlikely as the previous "Montagnards" theory.  The point of my saying "It begins..." was to express dismay that the marvelous new antedating would probably have a negative effect of setting off a new round of etymological theorizing.

Fred

________________________________________
From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Wilson Gray [hwgray at GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 10:44 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: 1962 "the whole nine yards"

Geez, Fred, I don't know. I may be alone in this, but, IMO, a
discussion regarding "the whole [set of] nine [ship]yards" doesn't
have precisely the same ring as the ordinary phrase, "the whole nine
yards." Would anyone ever have occasion to discuss nine shipyards in
precisely these words so often that it would lead to the development
of a whole new slang phrase? Or could it be possible that one or more
people were present at the hearing or saw the written report of the
hearing containing the sentence

"You have to increase from 7.72 to 12 for the average at the bottom of
that fifth column, for the whole nine yards"

and extracted from it the phrase

_the whole nine yards_

having seen that this was precisely the phrase that was needed to
update the old-fashioned

_whole kit and kaboodle_?

You never know.

-Wilson

I doubt it.

But, of course, that's just me.

-Wilson
–––
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die"---a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
-----
-Mark Twain

On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 9:51 AM, Shapiro, Fred <fred.shapiro at yale.edu> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: �  �  �  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: �  �  �  "Shapiro, Fred" <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
> Subject: �  �  � Re: 1962 "the whole nine yards"
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> It begins... � Seriously, Stephen, tremendous discovery in finding the earliest known usage of "whole nine yards"!
>
> Fred
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: American Dialect Society [ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf Of Stephen Goranson [goranson at DUKE.EDU]
> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 9:40 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: 1962 "the whole nine yards"
>
> Thanks, Joel!
>
> I think these are not 36-inch-type yards.
>
> Sam Clements found a 1964:
> 1964 Tucson(AZ) Daily Citizen, 25 April 1964, page 25, a story about NASA.
> "Give 'em the whole nine yards" means an item-by-item report on any
> project.
> and April 18 1964 The San Antonio Express and News,,How To Talk 'Rocket', by
> Stephen Trumbell [Trumbull?] for The World Book Encyclopedia Science Service:
> "the new
> language spreads across the country - like a good joke - with amazing
> rapidity"
>
> Bonnie Taylor-Blake found a related 1962:
> 962 From Gale F. Linster's letter to the editor, "Constructive
> Criticism," *Car
> Life* Vol. 9, Issue 11 (December 1962), Pg. 2
> "When you decide what extra cost equipment the American car buyer would like
> to hear about, each of the models tested should be so equipped. � Your staff
> of testers cannot fairly and equitably appraise the Chevrolet Impala sedan,
> with all nine yards of goodies, against the Plymouth Savoy which has
> straight shift and none of the mechanical conveniences which are quite
> common now. � The cars tested should be as nearly alike as possible."
>
>
> I found an I proposed relevant 1942:
> 1942 Investigation of the National Defense Program: Hearings Before a Special
> Committee Investigating the National Defense Program, By United States Congress.
> Senate. Special Committee Investigating the National Defense Program, part 12,
> U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington,1942, page 5192.
> (Google Books provided the title and page number but gave no text; WorldCat
> indicated the page was in pt. 12; the rest is from the paper publication.)
>
> Senators and Admirals on Thursday April 23, 1942 were discussing a rapid
> increase in construction of Liberty ships. Senator Harry S. Truman was
> chairman.
>
> [page 5191]
> ....
> Senator [Harold H.] BURTON....therefore you see a possibility of actually
> increasing the
> percentage of gain by 50 percent in these yards as a whole.
> Admiral [Howard L.] VICKERY. In the yards as a whole.
> Senator BURTON. And the yards that are below 12 percent now there would be more
> than a 50-percent gain because they are below that average at this time?
> [page 5292]
> Admiral VICKERY. Yes, sir.
> Senator BURTON. So that you have involved here a tremendous expansion in
> production, and you are shooting for a 50-percent increase or more than a
> 50-percent increase in seven out of nine plants.
> Admiral VICKERY. That is right, and they have got to make that to hit the
> schedules.
> Admiral [Emory S.] LAND. You have to increase from 7.72 to 12 for the average at
> the bottom of that fifth column, for the whole nine yards.
> Senator BURTON. That is pretty nearly twice.
> Admiral VICKERY. That is what we have got to do.
> Admiral LAND. That is what we are up against here, and they aren't up against
> anything that the rest of the United States and all its armed forces are up
> against.
>
> Stephen Goranson
> http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
>
>
> Quoting "Joel S. Berson" <Berson at ATT.NET>:
>
>> Confirmed Stephen Goranson's find (1962). � I only
>> ask in return that someone tell me what the previously earliest find was.
>>
>> Michigan's Voices: A Literary Quarterly Magazine
>> Created by Michigan Writers and Artists
>> Vol. 2, No. 4 (Fall 1962)
>>
>> "Man on the Thresh-hold"
>> by Robert E.Wegner
>> (starts on page 26)
>>
>> page 41
>>
>> [If this is not enough context, I will mail Jesse
>> the page -- it's in a one-sentence, 42-line
>> paragraph. � But the next two paragraphs are one line each.]
>>
>> Marjorie's fault, and if all this howling and
>> yelling up and down through the furnace pipes
>> didn't stop soon they'd have the kids awake and
>> then we can all take positions at one of the
>> vents and bellow at each other � ... then the dog
>> would catch on and go ki-yi-yi-ing from one to
>> the other of the shouting pyjama-clad
>> participants -- mad, mad, mad, the consequence of
>> house, home, kids, respectability, status as a
>> college professor and the whole nine yards, as a
>> brush salesman who came by the house was fond of
>> saying, the whole damn nine yards and Marjorie
>> with her credulous countenance which allowed him
>> to tell her with a perfectly straight face ...
>> tell her it was a left-handed screwdriver he
>> needed, one that turned counter-clockwise ...
>>
>> [The left-handed screwdriver is just a teaser for the list.]
>>
>> For anyone wanting to ask Wegner whether it was a
>> Fuller Brush salesman, the following shows up via
>> Google (and on-line library catalogs):
>>
>> There is a Robert E. Wegner, author of _The
>> poetry and prose of E. E. Cummings_ (Harcourt, Brace & World, 1965).
>>
>> He may also be one of the photographers credited
>> in _The Third coast : Contemporary Michigan
>> Fiction (Wayne State University Press, 1981,
>> ISBN-13: 9780814316955, ISBN: 0814316956).
>>
>> And more recently, Cummings, E(dward) E(stlin)
>> 1894–1962: Critical Essay by Robert E. Wegner
>> from Literature Criticism Series. ©2005-2006
>> Thomson Gale, a part of the Thomson Corporation.
>>
>> Finally, a hint that he has removed to Florida
>> and become a bed-and-breakfast host:
>>
> http://www.ourkeywest.net/keywest-bookstore/1-1000-Robert+E++Wegner-Author-sr-1.html
>> Tropical Inn, 82 Duval Street, Key West, Florida 33040.
>> (This web page lists 5 books for which Wegner is author or co-author.)
>>
>> Joel
>>
>> At 3/18/2009 03:17 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>>> On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 03:10:07PM -0400, Joel S. Berson wrote:
>>> > At 3/18/2009 02:54 PM, Jesse Sheidlower wrote:
>>> >> According to the University of Michigan catalog, Volume 2 of
>>> >> this journal covers 1961-1962. Could be a real find here....
>>> >
>>> > Jesse, I'm going to the Harvard Libraries later this afternoon, and
>>> > they say they have Vol. 2, no. 1-v. 3, no. 4 (spring 1964).. � Shall I
>>> > look for this?
>>>
>>> Sure! Report back to all of us.
>>>
>>> Jesse
>>>
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