Black English (UNCLASSIFIED)

[Wilson Gray]

I've noticed the same thing WRT black BrE and even black IrE (the
Celtic Channel was once available in the Boston area) speakers in
contemporary movies (in older movies, they tend to sound like "West
Indians"). If you couldn't see them, you couldn't tell their race,
because the distinctive "voice" is lacking.

My WAG is that, outside of the U.S., WRT to non-"white" speakers,
there's a greater degree, or even sense, of cohesion among disparate
racial and ethnic groups - within social classes, at least (there's
always a catch! :-) - such that distinctive, race-based "voice" in the
sense used here disappears after a generation or two. Even in the
States, African-Americans of both Anglo-Caribbean and
Hispano-Caribbean ancestry fit right in with the other speakers of
their 'hoods, be those 'hoods black, white, Asian, or whatever, after
a generation or two.

That is, this kind of "voice" is merely a social construct that can be
gained or be lost, depending upon a given speaker's opportunities and
/ or motivation.

"Gay voice" remains a problem. My old buddy, George, definitely has
gay voice. OTOH, John and Jerry don't have gay voice, but they do have
gay, well, "affect," for lack of a better term. Weldon has neither gay
voice nor gay affect. We double-dated to go see the gay-themed play,
The Boys in the Band, back in the '60's and his girl was way cuter
than mine. During the course of the play, Weldon kept whispering to me
that the flaming-faggot character reminded him of himself. It was
about fifteen years later, after I had gotten the word about Weldon
through the grapevine, before it finally dawned on me that Weldon had
been trying to come out to me. Unfortunately, so to speak, Weldon was
so good at bearding that I had to get the word from several
independent sources before I would believe it, gayness being no cooler
among blacks than it is among members of any other group.

-Wilson

On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:24 AM, Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at gmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: Â  Â  Â  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Â  Â  Â  Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Â  Â  Â Re: Black English (UNCLASSIFIED)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> When we're at our cottage and watch Canadian TV news and Canadian
> produced shows, black Canadians who don't have Caribbean, Haitian, or
> various African accents tend to speak the same English as other
> anglophone Canadians. Â The exception is Canadian rappers. Â On Canadian
> variety shows, I've heard black Canadians rap in AAVE
> indistinguishable from that of black American rappers, to my ear at
> least. Â When they're interviewed, however, they speak Canadian
> English. Â  I should note that our TV sample is skewed: Â the only
> channel we can get on the SW shore of Georgian Bay right at the foot
> of the 50 meter high Niagara Escarpment is CKCO, the CTV affiliate in
> Kitchener-Waterloo. Â Sometimes it even comes in in color.
>
> I haven't picked up on an African-Canadian English, and I have no
> knowledge of the dialects spoken in urban areas, though, like the
> Golden Horseshoe wrapping around the western end of Lake Ontario.
>
> Herb
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Wilson Gray <hwgray at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: Ā  Ā  Ā  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>> Poster: Ā  Ā  Ā  Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>> Subject: Ā  Ā  Ā Re: Black English (UNCLASSIFIED)
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> There's another parameter of what someone here - unfortunately, I
>> can't remember who it was - referred to as "voice" - the quality of
>> the "sound" (I won't attempt a definition, but most, if not all, here
>> will understand the reference) of a person's speech that allows
>> another person to think:
>>
>> He's gay
>> She's Jewish
>> He's black
>> She's Asian
>>
>> etc., etc.
>>
>> despite the fact that the other person has not laid eyes on the first
>> person. I say "allows," because you can never know, judging merely by
>> the sound of a person's voice. You have to have at least seen a
>> *picture* of that person. Judging by their voices, I thought that
>> singer Lennie Welsh was white and that singer Roy "The Houston Flash"
>> Head was black. When I eventually saw them on Bandstand, I was really
>> surprised to see that, in fact, the opposite is true.
>>
>> Yet, I agree that, however poorly defined they be, there are separate
>> dialects of all kinds that, together with voice, supply useful social
>> indications about the other person. FWIW, it seems to me that "gay
>> voice" overlays all other kinds of voice. That is, I don't think that
>> a person can speak with "black voice" and "white voice"
>> simultaneously, but I do think that a person can speak with both "gay
>> voice" and "black voice" or with "gay voice" and "white voice"
>> simultaneously. And, when it comes to making decisions as to a
>> person's "race," for me, "voice" is the decider.
>>
>> Of course, "race" bearing special social importance in the manner that
>> it does in this country, if I see someone who looks like Kofi Annan, I
>> decide that he's black without having to hear him utter a sound. OTOH,
>> if someone who, to me, is obviously "white" conversates with me in
>> "black voice," he becomes black, regardless of what lect he uses,
>> blues-singer black or blue-blood white.
>>
>> Needless to say, I write very loosely and very broadly. Nevertheless,
>> that's pretty much the way that it goes. A white roommate once asked
>> what the reaction of the regulars in a black hangout would be, if he
>> walked in speaking BE. Well, assuming that, like Roy Head, he could
>> also use "black voice," it would simply be assumed that he was black,
>> regardless of blond hair, blue eyes, or any other European features.
>> Otherwise, of course, it would be assumed that he was a w(h)igger. (I
>> toss in the aitch, since I've been forced to concede that today's
>> colored kids are almost as likely to have shifted [hw] > [w] as any
>> white chirren.)
>>
>> I can live with that, but, please, let the glottal stop die out!
>>
>> -Wilson
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 6:38 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC
>> <Bill.Mullins at us.army.mil> wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender: Ā  Ā  Ā  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>> Poster: Ā  Ā  Ā  "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
>>> Subject: Ā  Ā  Ā Re: Black English (UNCLASSIFIED)
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
>>> Caveats: NONE
>>>
>>> Wilson, I struggled with writing the example I used -- I'm not a scholar of languages like many on this list, nor am I as accurate an observer and reporter of these sorts of things as are others (including yourself) on this list.
>>>
>>> But it does seem to me that there are grammatical differences in BE and the White Plebian English (Southern variety) as I hear both, that aren't reflected in the arguments that James Landau made. Ā It struck me that the simplest way to make that point was to make a (simplistic) example of an instance that I've observed. Ā I didn't caveat it as perhaps I should have by saying that it is a generality that in no way was consistent amongst all Black or White people, nor even amongst all Black Plebian or White Plebian speakers. Ā In fact, I myself have dropped "is" from statements of the form "He is crazy" when speaking.
>>>
>>> Despite my inartfulness in making the argument, I believe my basic point is correct -- that there are grammatical differences between BE and WE that would show up in the test that James Landau proposed. Ā I'd have to carefully listen to some informal Black speech to properly cite them (probably the easiest thing to access would be Robin Harris albums, or other comedians; or perhaps the Judges TV shows
>>> that you report on from time to time; or Maury Povich).
>>>
>>> You are right, that such distinctions are ill-defined. Ā The division between BE and and other "dialects" aren't hard and fast lines, but probably more like two circles which overlap except at the margins (as spoken) and almost not at all (as heard) (that is, while speakers of BE and WE may speak slightly differently, they comprehend each other almost totally). Ā (and if the point that James was making is that these differences are not significant enough to constitute separate dialects, I'm not competent to say otherwise, other than to continue to observe that there are small differences in grammar that he did not allow for, as well as accent and vocabulary).
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On
>>>> Behalf Of Wilson Gray
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2009 5:14 PM
>>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>>> Subject: Re: Black English (UNCLASSIFIED)
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header ---------------
>>>> --------
>>>> Sender: Ā  Ā  Ā  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> Poster: Ā  Ā  Ā  Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
>>>> Subject: Ā  Ā  Ā Re: Black English (UNCLASSIFIED)
>>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> --------
>>>>
>>>> There's another problem to be considered, here. Is it possible for
>>>> "grammatical difference" to be other than ill-defined, when
>>>> distinctions between and among lects of what everyone considers
>>>> intuitively, instinctively to be the "same" language?
>>>>
>>>> It is extremely difficult to show that it is generally the case that
>>>> *no* WPEg speaker would *ever*, in his normal, unmonitored speech,
>>>> say, "He crazy" or fail to comprehend its meaning, if he heard it in
>>>> the speech of another.
>>>>
>>>> In like manner, it is extremely difficult - indeed, in IMO and in IME,
>>>> *impossible* - to show that it is generally the case that *no* BPEg
>>>> speaker would *ever*, in his normal, unmonitored speech, say, "He's
>>>> crazy" or fail to comprehend its meaning, if he heard it in the speech
>>>> of another.
>>>>
>>>> Can a difference that makes no difference be defined as a "difference"
>>>> that carries theoretical implications for the description of language?
>>>>
>>>> To quote Chomsky:
>>>>
>>>> "I think not."
>>>>
>>>> Of course, in contradistinction to Chomsky, *I* may be wrong. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> -Winston
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 14, 2009 at 1:53 PM, Mullins, Bill AMRDEC
>>>> <Bill.Mullins at us.army.mil> wrote:
>>>> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header -------------
>>>> ----------
>>>> > Sender: Ā  Ā  Ā  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
>>>> > Poster: Ā  Ā  Ā  "Mullins, Bill AMRDEC" <Bill.Mullins at US.ARMY.MIL>
>>>> > Subject: Ā  Ā  Ā Re: Black English (UNCLASSIFIED)
>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> ----------
>>>> >
>>>> > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
>>>> > Caveats: NONE
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >> What, then, is Plebian? Ā Let us define it by examples of its
>>>> grammar.
>>>> >> Ā  - Ā  The conjugation of "to be"ļæ½ā‚¬ Ā is complicated, and I am not
>>>> sure I
>>>> >> have it entirely correct. Ā Let me try: Certain ombinations such as
>>>> "I
>>>> >> are" and "he am" are not allowed. Ā Allowable combinations are (I
>>>> >> think):
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Ā  Ā  Ā o I am/is Ā  Ā  Ā  Ā  Ā  Ā We is/are
>>>> >> Ā  Ā  Ā o You is/are Ā  Ā  Ā  Ā  You/yā€™all is/are
>>>> >> Ā  Ā  Ā o He/she/it is Ā  Ā  Ā  They is/are
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Ā  Ā  Ā o I was Ā  Ā  Ā  Ā  Ā  Ā  Ā We was/were
>>>> >> Ā  Ā  Ā o You was/were Ā  Ā  Ā  You/yā€™all was/were
>>>> >> Ā  Ā  Ā o He/she/it was Ā  Ā  Ā They was/were
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Ā  - Ā  for the negative, "ainā€™t" can be used in all persons and
>>>> >> numbers
>>>> >> Ā  - Ā  Some intermingling of the past tense and the present perfect,
>>>> >> e.g. "Heā€™s got" does not mean "he has had" but rather "he had"
>>>> >> Ā  - Ā  Double negatives are used freely, and have the negative rather
>>>> >> than the positive sense: "ainā€™t no such thing asā€¦". Ā Triple
>>>> >> negatives can also occur, e.g. "We donā€™t take nothing from
>>>> nobody."
>>>> >> Ā  - Ā  "he does not" is contracted to "he donā€™t"
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Observe that the above is NOT "bad grammar" but rather a DIFFERENT
>>>> >> grammar than that of Patrician.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> If Plebian were merely a "substandard" form of "correct" English,
>>>> then
>>>> >> one would expect that the growth in compulsory education over the
>>>> last
>>>> >> two centuries would have wiped it out, or at least forced it into
>>>> >> decline. Ā But no, Plebian is alive and flourishing, is quite
>>>> >> persistent, and shows no signs of decline. Ā Hence we have no choice
>>>> but
>>>> >> to rank it as a dialect equal with and competitive to Patrician.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Philologists should be looking into the differences between
>>>> Patrician
>>>> >> and Plebian and the question of why, after several centuries,
>>>> neither
>>>> >> dialect has managed to dominate the other.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Now to contradict my own title. Ā Black English does exist. Ā What is
>>>> it?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> It is nothing more than a phonetic variation of Plebian English,
>>>> with a
>>>> >> notable amount of vocabulary not shared with other variations of
>>>> either
>>>> >> Patrician or Plebian English.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> A way to demonstrate: Ā transcribe a sample of BE, keeping the
>>>> original
>>>> >> grammar but using standard rather than eye-dialect spelling.
>>>> Compare
>>>> >> it with a similar transcription of speech from a white speaker of
>>>> >> Plebian. Ā Can you tell the difference?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Ā  Ā  - James A. Landau
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > I think there are more grammatical differences in Black Plebian
>>>> English grammar vs. White Plebian English grammar than James allows
>>>> for. Ā For example
>>>> >
>>>> > BPEg: Ā "He crazy."
>>>> > WPEg: Ā "He's crazy."
>>>> >
>>>> > This is a different conjugation of "to be".
>>>> > Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
>>>> > Caveats: NONE
>>>> >
>>>> > ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> -Wilson
>>>> ļæ½ļæ½ā€“
>>>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"ļæ½ā€“a strange complaint to
>>>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>>>> ā€“Mark Twain
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
>>> Caveats: NONE
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> -Wilson
>> ļæ½ļæ½ā€“
>> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"ļæ½ā€“a strange complaint to
>> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
>> ā€“Mark Twain
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>



--
-Wilson
–––
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"––a strange complaint to
come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
–Mark Twain

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org