Teenglish from England

Thu Sep 17 19:23:38 UTC 2009

Exactly. I don't usually have much of a dissenting opinion WRT the "received
pronunciation" ;-) of standard English. Those of us who are non-standard
speakers have to keep that in mind about ourselves.
One time, at linguistics camp (actually, the in-grooup slang term is / was?
"Baby Phonology"), Halle was describing the unrounding of open-o into [a] in
certain environments in AmE, when a classmate, born and reared in Cambridge,
interrupted him to ask, "What about [kO at b]?" "[kO at b]?", Halle responded.
"What's that?" She answered, "You know, like in "[kO:n] on the [kO at b]."
Halle replied, "Prof. [Name], I'm talking about *standard* English."

Later, she said to me, "I don't know *why* I said that! I know that I speak
with an accent!"

Irregardless ;-), it's very difficult for the local not to regard the
outsider as the one with the strange manner of speaking. Or even to regard a
local native who no longer has the regional accent as a kind of outsider. I
was chatting with Bob, a white Texan from Big Spring who spoke with a very
strong, movie-cowboy-ish, Texas accent. When I told him that I was from
Marshall, he blurted, "You must have been away from there a long time, the
way *you* talk!", as though he didn't quite believe me.

-Wilson

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Scot LaFaive <slafaive at gmail.com> wrote:

> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Scot LaFaive <slafaive at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Teenglish from England
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > Folks who think they/we say ee in standard US English are misguided. Or
> is
> > this what the posts below are saying and I have read it wrong? (Because I
> > can't actually believe that anyone really thinks the pronunciation is
> ee.)
> > DAD
>
>
> I believe only one of us is arguing that that is the pronunciation in
> Standard English. Wilson was speaking of another dialect, correct?
>
> Scot
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 11:55 AM, David A. Daniel <dad at pokerwiz.com>
> wrote:
>
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       "David A. Daniel" <dad at POKERWIZ.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: Teenglish from England
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > I neither pronounce English with ee nor am I misguided. I, and every
> > standard native speaker I have ever heard, say English as if it were
> > spelled
> > inglish or ing-glish, one or the other. I just listened to the m-w
> > pronunciations and those were inglish/ing-glish too. Folks who think
> > they/we
> > say ee in standard US English are misguided. Or is this what the posts
> > below
> > are saying and I have read it wrong? (Because I can't actually believe
> that
> > anyone really thinks the pronunciation is ee.)
> > DAD
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________
> > We've got a long way to go and a short time to get there
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU] On Behalf
> > Of
> > Laurence Horn
> > Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 12:52 PM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > Subject: Re: Teenglish from England
> >
> >
> > At 10:30 AM -0500 9/17/09, Scot LaFaive wrote:
> > >  >
> > >>  When it comes to words like "English" which begin with letter "e" (so
> > >>  there's no visual letter "i" influence) and it's pronounced in
> talking
> > >>  dictionaries, surely we all can hear long e ~ee (as in teen) not
> short
> > i,
> > >>  (as in tin).  And yet dictionaries persist in showing the vowel as
> > short
> > i
> > >>  while the speaker audibly says long e.
> > >
> > >
> > >Am I getting this right? Is the argument that the first vowel of
> "English"
> > >is pronounced the same as the vowel in "teen" in Standard English?
> > >
> > >Scot
> >
> > Yup, and more fully (in Tom's argument, not Wilson's) that those of
> > us who are convinced that we don't pronounce it that way are
> > misguided.
> >
> > LH
> >
> > >
> > >On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> >
> >
> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----
> > >>
> > >>  I recall being taught as a child that "English" started with a lax
> > >>  /I/, as in "in".  This was to correct those who used a spelling
> > >>  pronunciation with lax /E/ as in "en".  None of my teachers or fellow
> > >>  SE Michiganders, at least that I knew at the time, used the tense
> > >>  vowel /i/ as in "eve".  I am aware that some speakers do have the
> > >>  tense vowel before /N/ and some don't.  I am one who does not.  Of
> > >>  course, even for lax vowel speakers like me, the vowel is raised
> > >>  slightly before a velar nasal.  This is allophonic and does not
> change
> > >>  it to tense /i/ for those speakers.
> > >>
> > >>  Herb
> > >>
> > >>  On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 8:46 PM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com
> >
> > >>  wrote:
> > >>  >  Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > >>  > Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> > >>  > Subject:      Re: Teenglish from England
> > >>  >
> > >>
> >
> >
> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----
> > >>  >
> > >>  > Good one Wilson.  And you try to tell the teacher that it's the way
> > the
> > >>  teacher also says it too, yet he would not believe.
> > >>  >
> > >>  > When it comes to words like "English" which begin with letter "e"
> (so
> > >>  there's no visual letter "i" influence) and it's pronounced in
> talking
> > >>  dictionaries, surely we all can hear long e ~ee (as in teen) not
> short
> > i,
> > >>   (as in tin).  And yet dictionaries persist in showing the vowel as
> > short i
> > >>  while the speaker audibly says long e.  Boogles my mind and has done
> so
> > >>  since learning reading in 2nd grade.
> > >>  >
> > >>  > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
> > >>  > see truespel.com phonetic spelling
> > >>  >
> > >>  >
> > >>  >
> > >>  >
> > >>  >>
> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >>  >> Poster: Wilson Gray
> > >>  >> Subject: Re: Teenglish from England
> > >>  >>
> > >>
> >
> >
> >>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -----
> > >>  >>
> > >>  >> It's a tense [i] in some dialects. Or maybe only in some
> idiolects.
> > I
> > >>  fough=
> > >>  >> t
> > >>  >> TZ's fight in Articulatory Phonetics 101 at Davis. The prof
> > responded,
> > >>  >> "Well, if that's the way *you* say it ..."
> > >>  >> -Wilson
> > >>  >>
> > >>  >> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Laurence Horn wrot=
> > >>  >> e:
> > >>  >>
> >  >>  >> Poster: Laurence Horn
> > >>  >>> Subject: Re: Teenglish from England
> > >>  >>>
> > >>  >>>
> > >>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > >>  >> ------
> > >>  >>>
> > >>  >>> At 11:03 AM +0000 9/16/09, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> > >>  >>>>New teenage words from England (perhaps not only England)
> > >>  >>>>
> > >>  >>>>
> > >>  >>>
> > >>
> >
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1213626/Teenglish-From-Frape-Neek=
> > >>  >> -words-used-teenagers-baffle-adults.html
> > >  > >>>>
> > >>  >>>>When I say the word "teenglish" my tongue goes alveolar (top
> > front),
> > >>  >>>>but for English it's velar (top back). Yet the vowel befor the
> "n"
> > >>  >>>>is still long e, ~ee. ~teenglish ~Eenglish.
> > >>  >>>>
> > >>  >>>>Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
> > >>  >>>>see truespel.com phonetic spelling
> > >>  >>>>_________________________________________________________________
> > >>  >>>
> > >>  >>> and for me "Teenglish" (the variety of English associated with
> > teens)
> > >>  >>> differs from "Tinglish" (the variety of English that makes you
> > >>  >>> tingle) in and only in the quality of the vowel before the nasal,
> > >>  >>> which is additional evidence that the vowel in the latter case
> (or
> > in
> > >>  >>> "English", or "Singlish" [Singaporean English]) is a lax [I], not
> a
> > >>  >>> tense [i]. (Of course I might also render the former with an
> > >>  >>> alveolar consonant if I wanted to stress the morphological
> > structure
> > >>  >>> of "teen" + "English".)
> > >>  >>>
> > >>  >>> LH
> > >>  >>>
> > >>  >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>  >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>  >>>
> > >>  >>
> > >>  >>
> > >>  >>
> > >>  >> --=20
> > >>  >> -Wilson
> > >>  >> =96=96=96
> > >>  >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange
> complaint
> > to
> > >>  com=
> > >>  >> e
> > >>  >> from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> > >>  >> =96Mark Twain
> > >>  >>
> > >>  >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >>  >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > >>  > _________________________________________________________________
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> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

-- 
-Wilson
–––
All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to come
from the mouths of people who have had to live.
–Mark Twain

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