Teenglish from England

Geoff Nathan geoffnathan at WAYNE.EDU
Fri Sep 18 14:03:22 UTC 2009 

As Herb notes, we've gone over this many times.  I once heard a file that Tom posted of examples, and it turns out he does indeed pronounce a tense /i/ before velar nasals.
Of course this is not standard American English--if it were, there would be no way to make fun of this pronunciation in the classic 'we don't need no steenking badges'.  (Note that the fact that most native speakers CAN hear the difference indicates that for most of us the sound IS the lax phoneme, and not an archiphoneme, but that's a different theoretical axe for another kind of grinding...)

Geoff

Geoffrey S. Nathan
Faculty Liaison, C&IT
and Associate Professor, Linguistics Program
+1 (313) 577-1259 (C&IT)
+1 (313) 577-8621 (English/Linguistics)

----- "Herb Stahlke" <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM> wrote:

> From: "Herb Stahlke" <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 7:46:45 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: Teenglish from England
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Teenglish from England
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This is a claim Tom has maintained for as long as I've read his
> postings on this list.  In an earlier thread on the topic several
> years ago, it appeared that some speakers hear the vowel as closer to
> /i/ and others, like me, have a vowel closer to the vowel of "in".  I
> don't recall whether anyone claimed that the vowel is in fact tense,
> and I, like many, find tense, non-low vowels before /N/ pretty much
> impossible in English.
>
> Herb
>
> On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 11:30 AM, Scot LaFaive <slafaive at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Scot LaFaive <slafaive at GMAIL.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: Teenglish from England
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >>
> >> When it comes to words like "English" which begin with letter "e"
> (so
> >> there's no visual letter "i" influence) and it's pronounced in
> talking
> >> dictionaries, surely we all can hear long e ~ee (as in teen) not
> short i,
> >> (as in tin).  And yet dictionaries persist in showing the vowel as
> short i
> >> while the speaker audibly says long e.
> >
> >
> > Am I getting this right? Is the argument that the first vowel of
> "English"
> > is pronounced the same as the vowel in "teen" in Standard English?
> >
> > Scot
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 10:22 AM, Herb Stahlke
> <hfwstahlke at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> Poster:       Herb Stahlke <hfwstahlke at GMAIL.COM>
> >> Subject:      Re: Teenglish from England
> >>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> I recall being taught as a child that "English" started with a lax
> >> /I/, as in "in".  This was to correct those who used a spelling
> >> pronunciation with lax /E/ as in "en".  None of my teachers or
> fellow
> >> SE Michiganders, at least that I knew at the time, used the tense
> >> vowel /i/ as in "eve".  I am aware that some speakers do have the
> >> tense vowel before /N/ and some don't.  I am one who does not.  Of
> >> course, even for lax vowel speakers like me, the vowel is raised
> >> slightly before a velar nasal.  This is allophonic and does not
> change
> >> it to tense /i/ for those speakers.
> >>
> >> Herb
> >>
> >> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 8:46 PM, Tom Zurinskas
> <truespel at hotmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> > Poster:       Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> >> > Subject:      Re: Teenglish from England
> >> >
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > Good one Wilson.  And you try to tell the teacher that it's the
> way the
> >> teacher also says it too, yet he would not believe.
> >> >
> >> > When it comes to words like "English" which begin with letter "e"
> (so
> >> there's no visual letter "i" influence) and it's pronounced in
> talking
> >> dictionaries, surely we all can hear long e ~ee (as in teen) not
> short i,
> >>  (as in tin).  And yet dictionaries persist in showing the vowel as
> short i
> >> while the speaker audibly says long e.  Boogles my mind and has
> done so
> >> since learning reading in 2nd grade.
> >> >
> >> > Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
> >> > see truespel.com phonetic spelling
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> -----------------------
> >> >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >> >> Poster: Wilson Gray
> >> >> Subject: Re: Teenglish from England
> >> >>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >> It's a tense [i] in some dialects. Or maybe only in some
> idiolects. I
> >> fough=
> >> >> t
> >> >> TZ's fight in Articulatory Phonetics 101 at Davis. The prof
> responded,
> >> >> "Well, if that's the way *you* say it ..."
> >> >> -Wilson
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, Sep 16, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Laurence Horn wrot=
> >> >> e:
> >> >>
> >> >>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> >> >>> -----------------------
> >> >>> Sender: American Dialect Society
> >> >>> Poster: Laurence Horn
> >> >>> Subject: Re: Teenglish from England
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> >> >> ------
> >> >>>
> >> >>> At 11:03 AM +0000 9/16/09, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
> >> >>>>New teenage words from England (perhaps not only England)
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>
> >>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1213626/Teenglish-From-Frape-Neek=
> >> >> -words-used-teenagers-baffle-adults.html
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>When I say the word "teenglish" my tongue goes alveolar (top
> front),
> >> >>>>but for English it's velar (top back). Yet the vowel befor the
> "n"
> >> >>>>is still long e, ~ee. ~teenglish ~Eenglish.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
> >> >>>>see truespel.com phonetic spelling
> >>
> >>>>_________________________________________________________________
> >> >>>
> >> >>> and for me "Teenglish" (the variety of English associated with
> teens)
> >> >>> differs from "Tinglish" (the variety of English that makes you
> >> >>> tingle) in and only in the quality of the vowel before the
> nasal,
> >> >>> which is additional evidence that the vowel in the latter case
> (or in
> >> >>> "English", or "Singlish" [Singaporean English]) is a lax [I],
> not a
> >> >>> tense [i]. (Of course I might also render the former with an
> >> >>> alveolar consonant if I wanted to stress the morphological
> structure
> >> >>> of "teen" + "English".)
> >> >>>
> >> >>> LH
> >> >>>
> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --=20
> >> >> -Wilson
> >> >> =96=96=96
> >> >> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange
> complaint to
> >> com=
> >> >> e
> >> >> from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> >> >> =96Mark Twain
> >> >>
> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >> >
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> >> >
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
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