prince and prints

[Herb Stahlke]

Tom,

In a narrow phonetic transcription I would certainly transcribe the
[t] if it is pronounced in the sample I'm transcribing.  I would also
transcribe the glottal stop if that's present phonetically, as it
often is in final [nts] clusters.  However, both depend on the
pronunciation I'm transcribing, and as Geoffrey has noted, the
pronunciation varies.  Phonetic transcription is always based on a
phonetic token.  What you're talking about is closer to a phonemic
transcription, which will omit a lot of phonetic detail, for example
nasality on vowels or aspiration on initial fortis stops in stressed
syllables, like the /t/ in "top."  Even in a phonemic transcription I
would not transcribe the [p] in "lymph,"  the [t] in "prince," or the
[k] in "strength."  Those sounds are conditioned by context (nasal +
voiceless fricative) and so are not included in a phonemic
transcription.  As Geoffrey noted, some of them have come into our
spelling and under the influence of spelling they tend to get
pronounced more regularly.

Herb

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 6:31 AM, Tom Zurinskas <truespel at hotmail.com> wrote:
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: Â  Â  Â  American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster: Â  Â  Â  Tom Zurinskas <truespel at HOTMAIL.COM>
> Subject: Â  Â  Â Re: prince and prints
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I don't think of it as an artifact at all. Â If every word ending "nce" is pronounced ~ts, then it's a fact rather than artifact. Â To foespel "since" as ~sins makes no sence ~sents if a ~t is heard.
>
> To say - when a person tries to say ending "ns" (nce) they have a hard time so they insert a "t", but the "t" is not really real, it's artificial, so even though you hear a "t" its not right to foespel it with a "t" - is not the way to go for phonetics.
>
> When "ph" stands for ~f, that's not and artifact. Â Same with ending "nce" standing for ~ts.
>
> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
> see truespel.com phonetic spelling
>
>
>
>
>>
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>> Subject: Re: prince and prints
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> What you hear as [t] in "prince" is a result of timing. In
>> transitioning from the lowered velum, closed glottis, and alveolar
>> closure of /n/ to the raised velum, spread glottis, and less tight
>> alveolar closure of /s/, there is frequently a brief overlap during
>> which the velum is raised, the glottis is spread, and the alveolar
>> closure is tight, resulting in a transitory or epenthetic [t]. While
>> this does occur frequently, it's not inevitable, and words like
>> "prince" can be and are pronounced without the overlap, hence without
>> the [t]. The [t] is, in other words, an artifact of articulatory
>> processes, not part of the word itself.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 9:53 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender: Â Â Â American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Â Â Â Tom Zurinskas
>>> Subject: Â Â Â prince and prints
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> I recently saw "comeuppance" and its foespeleeng (phonetic spelling)
>>>
>>> Â /,kVm'Vp at ns/ Â - No /ts/ ending
>>>
>>> in m-w.com it's
>>>  \(ˌ)kəm-ˈə-pən(t)s\  and I hear ~kummupents (a definite ~ts ending)
>>>
>>> Why is it that the ~ts is not recognized in some phonetic notation? Â For instance thefreedictionary.com:
>>>
>>> "prints" and "prince" rhyme  (i.e., "prints" ~prints and "prince" ~prints), but thefreedictionary drops the ~t and has prince as (prins) even though for the US and UK pronounciation as spoken on the site when clicked the ~t is evident before the ~s.
>>>
>>> ON that site this goes for:
>>> since (sins) - I hear for US and UK ~sints
>>> fence (fens) - I hear for US and UK ~fents
>>> dance (dans) - I hear for US ~dants and UK ~daants.
>>>
>>> I just can't understand how this error can exist; especially in light of the fact that in tradspeld English, when "n" is followed by "s" at the end of a word the "s" is spoken as ~z.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
>>> see truespel.com phonetic spelling
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