prince and prints

[Tom Zurinskas]

I don' think dictionaries are working from "narrow" transcriptions when they offer voicings of words.
I gave a list of words from thefreedictionary.com.  They ended in "nce" and all sounded to me like ~nts.  You appear to be saying that the speakers are incorrect.  I would say that they are correct.  See m-w.com and they put n(t)s, meaning that the (t) is optional.  Yet the speaker has the ~t.

It is my experience that words ending in "nce" are typically spoken as ~nts, just as they are spoken in the sample words.

Not only that but words ending in "ns" are not spoken as ~ns, but ~nz.  The ending ~ns is phonetically regular in English

Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
see truespel.com phonetic spelling



> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
> Sender: American Dialect Society
> Poster: Herb Stahlke
> Subject: Re: prince and prints
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Tom,
>
> In a narrow phonetic transcription I would certainly transcribe the
> [t] if it is pronounced in the sample I'm transcribing. I would also
> transcribe the glottal stop if that's present phonetically, as it
> often is in final [nts] clusters. However, both depend on the
> pronunciation I'm transcribing, and as Geoffrey has noted, the
> pronunciation varies. Phonetic transcription is always based on a
> phonetic token. What you're talking about is closer to a phonemic
> transcription, which will omit a lot of phonetic detail, for example
> nasality on vowels or aspiration on initial fortis stops in stressed
> syllables, like the /t/ in "top." Even in a phonemic transcription I
> would not transcribe the [p] in "lymph," the [t] in "prince," or the
> [k] in "strength." Those sounds are conditioned by context (nasal +
> voiceless fricative) and so are not included in a phonemic
> transcription. As Geoffrey noted, some of them have come into our
> spelling and under the influence of spelling they tend to get
> pronounced more regularly.
>
> Herb
>
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 6:31 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>> Sender: Â Â Â American Dialect Society
>> Poster: Â Â Â Tom Zurinskas
>> Subject: Â Â Â Re: prince and prints
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I don't think of it as an artifact at all. Â If every word ending "nce" is pronounced ~ts, then it's a fact rather than artifact. Â To foespel "since" as ~sins makes no sence ~sents if a ~t is heard.
>>
>> To say - when a person tries to say ending "ns" (nce) they have a hard time so they insert a "t", but the "t" is not really real, it's artificial, so even though you hear a "t" its not right to foespel it with a "t" - is not the way to go for phonetics.
>>
>> When "ph" stands for ~f, that's not and artifact. Â Same with ending "nce" standing for ~ts.
>>
>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
>> see truespel.com phonetic spelling
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>> Sender: American Dialect Society
>>> Poster: Herb Stahlke
>>> Subject: Re: prince and prints
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> What you hear as [t] in "prince" is a result of timing. In
>>> transitioning from the lowered velum, closed glottis, and alveolar
>>> closure of /n/ to the raised velum, spread glottis, and less tight
>>> alveolar closure of /s/, there is frequently a brief overlap during
>>> which the velum is raised, the glottis is spread, and the alveolar
>>> closure is tight, resulting in a transitory or epenthetic [t]. While
>>> this does occur frequently, it's not inevitable, and words like
>>> "prince" can be and are pronounced without the overlap, hence without
>>> the [t]. The [t] is, in other words, an artifact of articulatory
>>> processes, not part of the word itself.
>>>
>>> Herb
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 24, 2010 at 9:53 AM, Tom Zurinskas wrote:
>>>> ---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------
>>>> Sender: Â Â Â American Dialect Society
>>>> Poster: Â Â Â Tom Zurinskas
>>>> Subject: Â Â Â prince and prints
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> I recently saw "comeuppance" and its foespeleeng (phonetic spelling)
>>>>
>>>> Â /,kVm'Vp at ns/ Â - No /ts/ ending
>>>>
>>>> in m-w.com it's
>>>>  \(ˌ)kəm-ˈə-pən(t)s\  and I hear ~kummupents (a definite ~ts ending)
>>>>
>>>> Why is it that the ~ts is not recognized in some phonetic notation? Â For instance thefreedictionary.com:
>>>>
>>>> "prints" and "prince" rhyme  (i.e., "prints" ~prints and "prince" ~prints), but thefreedictionary drops the ~t and has prince as (prins) even though for the US and UK pronounciation as spoken on the site when clicked the ~t is evident before the ~s.
>>>>
>>>> ON that site this goes for:
>>>> since (sins) - I hear for US and UK ~sints
>>>> fence (fens) - I hear for US and UK ~fents
>>>> dance (dans) - I hear for US ~dants and UK ~daants.
>>>>
>>>> I just can't understand how this error can exist; especially in light of the fact that in tradspeld English, when "n" is followed by "s" at the end of a word the "s" is spoken as ~z.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom Zurinskas, USA - CT20, TN3, NJ33, FL7+
>>>> see truespel.com phonetic spelling
>>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>>> The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.
>>>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.
>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org